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In episode 144 of White Canes Connect, Lisa Bryant and David Goldstein welcome an incredible team from the Library of Accessible Media for Pennsylvanians (LAMP) in Pittsburgh. Joining us are Mark Lee, Library Administrator; Mary Beth Parks, Patron Services Manager; Laura Hughes, Youth Services Librarian; and Jeff Wright, Manager of Technology and Materials Fulfillment. The LAMP team shares how their mission to make reading and media accessible has grown stronger, culminating in their recognition as the Library of Congress Network Library of the Year—an honor they've now received three times. Mark explains LAMP's history, their statewide reach, and how they're leveling the playing field for Pennsylvanians with print disabilities. Mary Beth details the vital work of reader advisors, guiding patrons through book selections, technology, and resources. Laura highlights engaging youth programs, from in-person and virtual story times to partnerships with schools and families. Jeff walks us through their tech support initiatives, from monthly open tech sessions to tactile programming and innovative use of 3D printing. This inspiring conversation showcases LAMP's creativity, collaboration, and genuine commitment to empowering people through accessible media. If you're not yet connected with LAMP or BARD, now is the time! Show notes at https://www.whitecanesconnect.com/144      Connect with the Library of Accessible Media for Pennsylvanians Learn more about LAMP on their website at https://www.mylamp.org. Email the team at info@mylamp.org or call them at (800) 242-0586. Listen to LAMP on episode 042 at https://www.whitecanesconnect.com/042/.  NFB of PA State Convention Registration is Open Registration is now open for the 2025 NFB of PA State Convention in Harrisburg from November 13 to November 16 at the Best Western Premier! Learn more at https://www.nfbofpa.org/state-convention/. Go directly to the registration form at https://www.nfbofpa.org/register/. Exhibit Hall table registration: https://nfbofpa.org/blog/showcase-your-products-2025-nfb-pa-state-convention-exhibit-hall.  An Easy Way to Help the NFB of PA Support the NFB of PA with every purchase at White Cane Coffee Company by going to https://www.whitecanecoffee.com/ref/nfbp. When you use that link to purchase from White Cane Coffee, the NFB of PA earns a 10% commission! Share the link with your family and friends! Listen to Erin and Bob Willman from White Cane Coffee on episode 072 of White Canes Connect.  Donate to the NFB of PA Like what you hear on White Canes Connect? Support us and donate to the National Federation of the Blind of Pennsylvania, visit https://www.NFBofPA.org/give/. We Want to Hear Your Story Reach out with questions and comments, or share ideas! We want to hear from you. Call us at (267) 338-4495 or at whitecanesconnect@gmail.com. Follow White Canes Connect Find out why White Canes Connect is currently ranked at #13 of the 100 Best Visually Impaired Podcast. Find the show on: Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/white-canes-connect/id1592248709  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1YDQSJqpoteGb1UMPwRSuI  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@pablindpodcast  Visit our website at https://www.whitecanesconnect.com/.

Our guest this time, Elizabeth Gagnon is all about Tea. However, as you will discover, her Tea is not mostly the drink although at the end of our episode we do learn she does like some teas. For Miss Liz, as she is most commonly known, Tea stands for Teaching Educational Awareness.   Miss Liz's life growing up was hard. She was sexually abused among other things. It took her awhile to deal with all the trauma she faced. However, as she and I discuss, she made choices to not let all the abuse and beatings hold her back.   She tried to graduate from high school and was one course away from that goal when she had to quit school. She also worked to get her GED and again was only a few units away when life got in the way.   Liz's story is not to her a tragedy. Again, she made choices that helped her move on. In 2010 she began her own business to deal with mental health advocacy using her Tea approach. Liz will tell us all about Tea and the many iterations and changes the Tea model has taken over the years.   I am as impressed as I can be to talk with miss Liz and see her spirit shine. I hope you will feel the same after you hear this episode.   Miss Liz has written several books over the past several years and there are more on the way. Pictures of her book covers are in the show notes for this episode. I hope you enjoy hearing from this award-winning lady and that you will gain insights that will help you be more unstoppable.     About the Guest:   Elizabeth Jean Olivia Gagnon, widely known as Miss Liz, is an international keynote speaker, best-selling author, and the visionary behind Miss Liz's Tea Parties and Teatimes. A fierce advocate for mental health, abuse awareness, and peacebuilding, she's recognized globally for her storytelling platforms that empower individuals to share their truths “one cup at a time.” From podcast host to humanitarian, Miss Liz uses her voice and lived experience to ignite real change across communities and cultures.   A survivor of extreme trauma, Miss Liz has transformed her pain into purpose by creating safe spaces for open, healing conversations. Her work has earned her prestigious honors, including an Honorary Doctorate for Human Rights, the Hope and Resilience Award, and the World Superhero Award from LOANI. She's been featured on over 200 platforms globally and continues to lead through her podcast, social impact work, and live storytelling events.   Miss Liz is also a multi-time international best-selling co-author in the Sacred Hearts Rising and Unstoppable Gems book series. She's the creator of the TeaBag Story Award and the founder of her own T-E-A product line—Teaching Educational Awareness through fashion, wellness, and personal development tools. With every word, event, and product, Miss Liz reminds us that healing is possible, and that we all hold the power to be a seed of change.   Ways to connect with Elizabeth:   Social media links my two websites www.misslizsteatime.com www.misslizstee.com All my social media links can be found on those sites. Or my linktree.  https://linktr.ee/Misslizsteatime     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to talk to Miss Liz Gagnon, and I'm really interested to hear why she likes to be called Miss Liz instead of Elizabeth, or any of those kinds of things. But Liz also has some very interesting connections to tea, and I'm not going to give away what that's all about, but I'll tell you right now, it's not what you think. So we'll, we'll get to that, though, and I hope that we get to have lots of fun. Over the next hour, I've told Liz that our podcast rule, the only major rule on this podcast is you can't come on unless you're going to have fun. So I expect that we're going to have a lot of fun today. And Liz, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We are glad you're here.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 02:09 Well, thank you so much, Michael for having me. It's an honor to be here. I can't wait to dip into the tea and get everybody curious on what we're going to be spilling. So,   Michael Hingson ** 02:19 so how did you get started with the the name Miss Liz, as opposed to Elizabeth or Lizzie or any of that kind of stuff.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 02:28 Well, I have all those names too, Michael, I'll bet you   Michael Hingson ** 02:31 do. But still, Miss Liz is what you choose.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 02:35 Actually, Miss Liz was given to me at the age of four the same time my cup of tea was given to me at the age of four by my Oma. I that she just had a hard time saying Elizabeth. She was from Germany, so she would just call me Miss Liz. Miss Liz. And then I knew, Oh boy, I better move, right.   Michael Hingson ** 02:52 Yeah. If she ever really got to the point where she could say Elizabeth, very well, then you really better move.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 02:59 Well, she used to call me Elvira too, and I didn't like that name Elvira. Yeah, I don't know how she got Elizabeth from a viral but she used to call me a vira. I think maybe it was because her name was Avira, so I think it was close to her name, right? So, well,   Michael Hingson ** 03:17 tell us a little bit about the early Miss Liz, growing up and all that stuff, and little bit about where you came from and all that.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 03:25 Well, I come from a little town called Hearst, Ontario in Canada. It's about maybe 6000 population. I'm going to guess. I was born and raised there until the age of I think it was 31 when I finally moved away for the last time, and I've been in the East End, down by Ottawa and Cornwall and all that stuff since 2005 but My early childhood was a hard one, but it was also a strong one. I A lot of people will say, how do you consider that strong? I've been through a lot of abuse and neglect and a lot of psychological stuff growing up and but I had my tea, I had that little Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole that I could go down once in a while, just to keep me moving and keep me strong, right? So, yeah, my story was, was a hard one, but I don't look at it as a struggle. I look at it as as stepping stones of overcoming Stuff and Being that voice that I am today,   Michael Hingson ** 04:29 struggle, if you if you're willing to talk about a struggle, how   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 04:35 I was sexually abused by my uncle at the age of four, and then other family members later on, in couple years later down the road, but my uncle was the main abuser, and I became impregnant by my uncle and lost a daughter to stillborn. So there was a lot of shame to the family. Was not allowed to speak at this child for many, many years, I finally came out with her story. After my father passed, because I felt safe, because my family would put me into psychiatric wards when I would talk about my little girls,   Michael Hingson ** 05:06 wow, yeah, I, I don't know I, I just have very little sympathy for people who do that to girls, needless to say, and now, now my cat, on the other hand, says she's abused all the time, but that's a different story,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 05:25 right? But I strongly believe, Michael, that we all go through challenges and struggles in life to have our story, to be that voice where we are today, like like yourself, right? Had you not gone through what you went through, you would not have the story that you have   Michael Hingson ** 05:42 well, and I think that it also comes down to what you decide to do with the story. You could just hide it, hide behind it, or other things like that. And the problem is, of course, that then you don't talk about it. Now, after September 11, I didn't go through any real counseling or anything like that. But what I did do was I and my wife and I discussed it. We allowed me to take calls from reporters, and literally, we had hundreds of calls from reporters over a six month period. And what was really fascinating for me, especially with the TV people who came. I learned a whole lot about how TV people set up to do an interview. We had a Japanese company with two or three people who came, and that was it up through an Italian company that had 15 people who invaded our house, most of whom didn't really seem to do anything, and we never figured out why were they. They were there. But it's fascinating to see how   06:46 extras, Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 06:49 extra, the extras, yeah, but we but it was very fascinating. But the point was that the reporters asked everything from the most inane, dumb question to very intelligent, wise, interesting questions, and it made me talk about September 11. So I don't think that anything could have been done in any other way that would have added as much value as having all those reporters come and talk to me. And then people started calling and saying, We want you to come and talk to us and talk to us about what we should learn from September 11 lessons we should learn talk about leadership and trust in your life and other things like that. And my wife and I decided that, in reality, selling life and philosophy was a whole lot more fun and rewarding than managing a computer hardware sales team and selling computer hardware. So I switched. But it was a choice.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 07:48 Yeah, it is a choice, right? Michael, do you, do you stay in the self pity, or do you rise from it, right? And a lot of people were like, Miss Liz, how can you be so good hearted and open to people that have hurt you so bad? And I always said, since I was a little girl, Michael, I would not give anybody what others gave me. Yeah, you know that that little inner girl in me always said, like, you know what it feels like. Would you like somebody else to feel this way? And the answer is no.   Michael Hingson ** 08:16 And with people like your uncle, did you forgive them ever? Or have you,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 08:21 I forgive them for myself. Yeah, I that's how you do. You know, I'm not forgiving you and coming for your Sunday dinner and having roast beef and pretending that it was all fun and games. When I was younger, I had no choice to forgive him and to be around him, because that's how my parents were. You know, don't bring shame to the family and as a minor. Well, you you know you obey your parents and that, and I hate that word, obey I hear. You know, I grew up in a time where you respect your elders, right? Whether they were good or bad, you respected them. It was Yes, sir, yes, ma'am. You know whether they hurt you or not, you just respected these people. Do I? Do I have respect for them today, absolutely not. I pray for them, and I hope that they find peace within themselves. But I'm not going to sit in and apologize to somebody who actually doesn't give to to tune darns of my my apology, right? So my words?   Michael Hingson ** 09:23 Well, the the bottom line is that respect is something that has to be earned, and if they're not trying to earn it, then you know, why should you respect? On the other hand, forgiveness is something that you can do and and you do it and you move on, yeah, and   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 09:40 a lot of people don't understand the real forgiveness, right? They always tell me, Miss Liz, you haven't forgiven anybody. And I said, Yes, I have, or I wouldn't be where I am today, guys, yeah, if I wouldn't have forgiven those people for myself, not for them.   Michael Hingson ** 09:55 Now, see, that's the difference between people and my cat. My cat has no self pity. She's just a demanding kitty, and I wouldn't have her any of that. Oh, she's she's really wonderful. She likes to get petted while she eats. And she'll yell at me until I come and pet her, and then she eats while I'm petting her. She loves it. She's a cutie. She's 15 and going on two. She's great.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 10:17 Oh, those are the cute ones, right? When they stay young at heart, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 10:21 oh, she, she does. So my wife passed in 2022, and now stitch, that's the cat's name, sleeps up next to me. And so that works out well, and she was named stitch when we got her, not quite sure where the name originally came from, but we rescued her. We were not going to keep her. We were going to find her a home because we were living in an apartment. But then I learned that the cat's name was stitch, and I knew that that cat weren't going to go nowhere, because my wife had been a quilter since 1994 you think a quilter is ever going to give up a cat named stitch? So stitch has been with us now for over 10 years. That's great. Oh, wow. And there's a lot of love there,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 11:03 yeah. And, you know, these little connections, right? The Universe sends us, you know, the names and all of that. They send us pets as well as guidance. You know, my little guy is Tinkerbell, and everybody thinks that she's still a kitten. She she's going to be 12 in September, so, but she's still a little tiny thing. She kept the name. She just wants to be a little Tinkerbell. So   Michael Hingson ** 11:24 that's cool. What a cute name for a kitty. Anyway, yeah, well, so you, you grew up? Did you go to to college or university?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 11:34 No, I got out of school. I was half a credit away from high school graduation. I became pregnant for the second time, and then I got married at 18. While it was more or less I was I had no choice to get married or or I would have, my father would have took my daughter from me, my oldest, who is alive, and I I had already lost one, and I wasn't losing a second one. So I got married. I did go back to adult school in 2000 I got I was one exam away from getting my GED, and that night, I got a beating of a lifetime from my ex husband, because he didn't want me to get ahead of him, right? So, and then I went back again to try and get my GED three other times, and I was always four points away from getting what I needed to get it. So I was just like, You know what? The universe doesn't want me to have this piece of paper, I guess. Yeah, and I'm not giving up, right? I'm just it's not the right timing and maybe in the future, and it's always the y and s string that gets me the four point question guys on the math exam that gets me every time, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:49 oh, well. Well, I always thought that my wife, in so many ways, was was ahead of me, and it didn't ever bother me, and it never will bother me a bit, just things that she would say, creative things, just clever things. She clearly was ahead of me, and I think she felt the same way about me in various ways, but that's what made for a great marriage. And we we worked off each other very well, and then that's kind of the way it really ought to be. Oh boy, ego, ego gets to be a real challenge sometimes, though, doesn't   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 13:24 it? Oh yes, it does. So   Michael Hingson ** 13:27 what did you do when you didn't go off and end up going to school?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 13:32 I became a mom, and then I did the mom role, right? I grew up in a kind of like a redneck, hillbilly kind of family where the accent kind of kicks in once in a while. You know, it was barefoot and pregnant, you take care of the kids, cook and clean and be the wife and just obey. Once again, that word obey. You know, I grew up with that word a lot, and that's why you don't like that word. I'm surprised I'm even using it tonight. But, yeah, so it was just take care of the family and just live. And eventually, in 2005 a lot of things happened with my children and myself, and we just left and started a new life. In 2006 I felt ill. I was at work, and my left arm went numb, and I thought I was having a heart attack or or that they were checking me since I was little, for MS as well, because I have a lot of problems with my legs. I fall a lot, so we're still looking into that, because I'm in the age range now where it can be diagnosed, you know, so we're so in 2006 I became ill, and I lost feelings from my hips down where I couldn't walk anymore. So I had to make some tough choices, and I reached out to my family, which I kind of. Figured I'd get that answer from them. They told me to get a backbone and take care of my own life and stop because I moved away from everybody. So I turned to the foster care system to help me with my children, and that was a hard choice. Michael, it took me two and a half months. My children sat down with me and said, Mommy, can we please stay where we are? We we have friends. You know, we're not moving all the time anymore. I saw it took a while, and I signed my kids over legal guardianship, but I made a deal with the services that I would stay in the children's lives. I would continue their visits twice a month, and be at all their graduations, be at their dance recital, anything I was there. I wanted my children to know that I was not giving up on them. I just was not able to take care of them in my   Michael Hingson ** 15:50 home. Did they accept that?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 15:53 Oh, they did, yeah, and it was a bumpy road. The first five years. Was a lot of adjusting, and we were really close. I got to pick the foster homes, which is not usually the way it works. So and my children went through a lot of abuse as well. My ex husband was very abusive, so I knew that my daughter needed to be around horses. She loved to be around horses, so I found her home that had horses. And my other two children, I found a home where they had music, and music was really important to me, because music is what saved me as well during my journey, right? I turned to music to to get through the hard times. So yeah, the first five years was it was adjustments, and really good, and we got along. And after that the services changed, new workers came in, and then it became a nightmare. There was less visits happening. There was an excuse for a visit. There was oh, well, maybe we can reschedule this, or if we do them at five in the morning, can you show up? And of course, I was showing up at five and going to bed as soon as the visit was done, because I was by myself, so it was a journey, but and I I am grateful for that journey, because today me and my older kids, who are adults, were really close, and we're building that bond again, and they understand the journey that Mom had to take in order for them to have a home.   Michael Hingson ** 17:24 They understand it and accept it, which is really obviously the important thing,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 17:30 yeah. But it's been, it's been rocky. Michael, like, you know, we've had our ups and downs. We've had like you You gave up on us. Like, you know, we've had those moments. But my children now becoming adults and becoming parents themselves. They see that. They see what mom had to do, right?   Michael Hingson ** 17:47 So are you able to walk now and move around?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 17:51 Oh, yeah, I was. It took about six months for me to learn how to walk again. I still have a limb from time to time. A lot of people call it my penguin little limp, because I limped like a little penguin from time to time, because my what happened is I went through so much trauma in my life constantly that I they diagnosed me with conversion disorder, which is not really well known to to a lot of people. And what it does is it shuts the body down, so I have no control over when my body says it's going to take a break. It just says I'm going on holidays, and you just gotta deal with it. So there's days where I can't walk, right? There's days where I can't talk. It sounds like I'm drunk. My sight is blurred, plus I'm already losing my sight because of genetic jerusa and stuff like that as well. So, but I mean, it took everything in me to push myself. And what pushed me was I had this nurse that was really rough with me, and she would give me these sponge baths, and she would slam me into the chair. And I told her, I said, next week, you will not be slamming me in that chair. And the next week I got up and I took three steps, and then the next couple hours, it was four, five steps, six steps. And I was like, I got this. I know I can do this, but it took six months, Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 19:15 but still, ultimately, the bottom line is, no rugby or American football for you. Huh? Nope. Okay.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 19:24 No, not you know, not yet. Anyway, well, maybe you never know, right? I'm still young. I'm only 51 you never know what I'm going to be doing next year. I always tell everybody, Miss Liz is always on an adventure.   Michael Hingson ** 19:36 So yeah, but I'm I'm not, I'm not an advocate of going off for rugby or football, but that's all right, do whatever works.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 19:42 Well, I'd like to watch football   19:45 that's different. I'd like to   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 19:47 check those boys out once in a while. Well, yeah, but yeah, no, I You just never know where I'm gonna go, right? Only the good universe knows where it's putting me next   Michael Hingson ** 19:58 year. So, so what kind. Of work. Did you did you do and, and what are you doing now? How to kind of one lead to the other?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 20:08 Actually, I started my business in 2015 of Miss Liz tea times. It was a fundraising Tea Party, but it started in my home. All I did was have a bunch of ladies over and celebrate strong women. And one lady really liked the layout that I did, and she's like, Can we do this in the community? I was like, I don't know. Let's try it. You know, if we don't try, we don't know. And then I went to the community for, I think, three years, we raised over $5,000 for different services that helped me along the way as well, and places that needed money for serving the community. And then we went virtual. When covid hit. The podcast came along, and I did that for five years, and I burnt myself out doing that. I'm an all or nothing kind of girl, so you either get nothing at all, or you get it all at once. So and and now I'm I've been writing and working on stuff and working on an E commerce business with a new way of serving tea, keeping people on their toes and wondering what's coming next. Uh, children's book is coming out soon. Uh, poultry book. So I've just been busy writing and doing a lot of different things.   Michael Hingson ** 21:14 What did you do before 2015 for worker income? Or did you   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 21:18 I worked in gas stations, chambermaid kind of stuff like that, something that wasn't too educated, because my ex husband didn't like that stuff, right? Don't try and be a leader. Don't try and be in the big business world. I'm sure he's his head is spinning now, seeing all the stuff that I'm doing, but that's on him, not me. So, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 21:41 yeah, absolutely, alright, let's get to it. Tell me about tea.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 21:49 Well, tea, tea started at four, and it was my OMA that gave me a cup of tea. And everybody thinks it's the beverage. It's not the beverage. We did have a cup of tea. So there is a beverage, there is a beverage involved. But she gave me words, and when I was little, I didn't understand these words. She said, reflect, recharge and release. And she came from the war in Germany, and she said the first thing I had was a cup of tea when I came to Canada, and she just knew that I was going to have a hard life. She knew that the family was kind of, you know, they had their sicknesses and addictions and stuff like that, so she just knew. And I was a quiet kid. I was always in the corner humming and rocking myself and doing stuff by myself. I didn't want to be around people. I was really loner. And she gave me these words, and these words resonated with me for years, and then I just kept hearing them, and I kept hearing Tea, tea. I know sometimes I'd be sitting in a room Michael by myself, and I'd be like, Okay, I don't want a cup of tea right now. Like, I don't know what this tea is like, but it was like the universe telling me that I needed to get tea out there. And I knew it wasn't a beverage. I knew it was. OMA gave me words. So we gotta bring words to the table. We gotta bring the stories to the table. She was giving me a story. She was telling me to stay strong, to recharge, to reflect, release all of the stuff that all of these things take right, to overcome stuff. You know, we have to reflect on the journey that we were put on, and recharge ourselves when we overdo ourselves and release, releasing and letting go of things that we know will never, ever get an answer to. So,   Michael Hingson ** 23:32 so you, what did you do with all of that? I mean that those are some pretty deep thoughts. Needless to say.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 23:38 Yeah, so I, I started with the tea time at home, and then when I went to the podcast, I would ask people, What is your tea? And then people were like, Miss Liz, I don't even like tea, like I'm a coffee drinker, or I like a good beer, or I'm just like, Okay, well, you don't even have to like the beverage. Like, it's not about the beverage. It's about our past, our present and our future. That's what the tea is, right? We all have that story. We all have the past, the present and the future, and how we how we look at it, and how we defined our stories, and how we tell our stories. So that's where the T is.   Michael Hingson ** 24:10 But you came up with words for the acronym eventually, yes, yes. When did you do that? And what were the words   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 24:20 I came up with the words I believe in 20, 2016 2017 and for me, it was teaching. I wanted to be a little kindergarten teacher when I was a little girl. So T was teaching right and teaching myself that the past was not going to define my future story. He was educational. I again. I wanted to be a teacher. I wanted to educate people. I wanted to educate myself. Even though I didn't have those degrees and I didn't go to school and universities, I could still educate myself. I could still reach out. I could still research. I could still find answers myself. And a was awareness, just bringing awareness that our lives are different and. Can change them, right? Nobody can define how our stories end, except for ourselves. Yeah, and the A, A was awareness, and the awareness that, you know, that we can bring any form of awareness, good, bad or ugly, you know, and I bring a little bit of all of it through my stories, and through, through the the overcoming that I've had, right is, it's an ugly story. There were bad things that happened, but there are good results in the end, yeah, because had I not gone through what I went through, Michael, I would not be here having this conversation with you tonight,   Michael Hingson ** 25:37 or it'd be a totally different conversation, if at all you're right, absolutely. So you you deal a lot with being a mental health advocate, and that's very understandable, because of all of the things that that you went through. But what kind of really made you decide to do that?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 25:58 Mental health advocate was deep in my blood since 2010 when I went to the pharmacy and gave them all my medication and said, I no longer want any of this because they had me so numbed with antidepressants and painkillers and stuff that I didn't even know I had children. People were telling me, your kids are coming for a visit. And I was like, why are you telling me I have kids? Like I'm a kid myself, like I was going backwards. And I didn't know that I was married, that I had children, but my kids names were and I was just like, like, When is mom and dad coming to get me? Like, I was like, I was so messed up, Michael. And I was just like, I'm not doing this anymore. Um, August 29 of 2009 I brought my medication, and I said, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm taking ownership of my life. I'm being the advocate of my life. I do not need these pills. Yes, it will be hard, yes, I've got trauma, but there's another way of doing this.   Michael Hingson ** 26:55 Well, you're clearly a survivor, and you've made choices that demonstrate that by any standards, and obviously a mental health advocate, what do you think are some of the major misconceptions that people have about mental health today that they also just don't seem to want to get rid of?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 27:15 Well, a lot of people have this conception that if you take a pill, it's going to go away. You're healed, you know, and then they get hooked on pills, or they get hooked on this is easy fix, right? Like I said this afternoon in another interview, I did this certain this afternoon. Michael, you know, we get these diagnosis, but doctors don't really sit with us and explain the diagnosis to us, they don't really understand. They don't really explain the side effects of the pills that they're giving us, and then themselves, may not even know the full aspect of those diagnosis. They just put you on a checklist, right? You check A, B, C and D, okay. Well, you have bipolar. You got DCE and you got D ID, like, you know, it's charts, so we're not really taking the time to understand people. And mental health has a long way to go, a lot of a long way to break the stigma as well, because mental illness, most of it, cannot be seen. It cannot be understood, because it's inside the body, right?   Michael Hingson ** 28:23 Yeah. And a lot of people don't want to look and analyze that and try to help truly deal with it.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 28:32 Yeah. A lot of people will judge what they don't understand or what they're scared of understanding,   Michael Hingson ** 28:39 which is why it's fascinating, and we've had a number of people on unstoppable mindset who believe in Eastern medicine and alternative medicine, as opposed to just doing pills. And it's fascinating to talk to people, because they bring such insights into the conversation about the human body, and many of them have themselves, used these alternatives to cure or better themselves, so it makes perfect sense, but yeah, we still don't tend to want to deal with it. Yeah?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 29:17 Well, anything that's uncomfortable, right? We don't want to really face it, right? We want to run from it, or we want to say, Oh, it's fine. I'll get to it next week, and then next week comes to next month, and next month comes to next year, and you're still dealing with the the same trauma and the same pain, right? Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 29:35 Well, so tell me about tea time with Miss Liz, because you've developed that. You've brought it into existence, and that obviously also helps deal with the mental health stigma. Tell me about that?   29:50 Well, I just   Michael Hingson ** 29:51 one question, but, well,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 29:53 I just really wanted to meet people, and I wanted to hear their stories, you know, because it gets lonely once in a while. And you're always telling your story, right? So I wanted to get other stories, but I didn't want to just deal with mental health. I wanted to deal with grief and abuse and things, everything that I've lived with, right? And it all goes back to trauma, like all three of them, abuse, grief, mental health, it deals with trauma in some form. And then I got, I got hooked to a bunch of people that found Miss Liz on on the airwaves, and then connected with you, Michael, you were a guest on Tea Time. Yeah, my last season, and, you know, and I got to go down a bunch of rabbit holes with a bunch of cool people. And tea time was just a place for everybody, just to come and share, share what they were doing and why they were doing it, right? So a lot a lot of the questions that I asked was your younger self way? What? How do you see your younger self to your older self, and why are you doing what you're doing today? And a lot of people are writing books because writing saved them through hard times in life as well. And a lot of mental health back in the 60s, 70s and 80s, were not spoken of. You know, it was really hush hush. Oh, that person's just a rebel, or that person's just a little crazy once in a while, or has too much to drink from time to time. So mental health wasn't really spoken about in those those decades, right? So,   Michael Hingson ** 31:27 yeah, and you know, but I hear what you're saying about writing, and you know, I I've written now three books, and I've learned a lot as I write each book, and I think there's a lot of value in it, but also it's more than writing, although writing is is a way to to really do it from the most personal standpoint possible. But as as you've pointed out, talking about it is also extremely important, and talking about whatever, whether it's a bad thing or a good thing, but talking about it as well as writing about it is is valuable, because if we take the time to do all of that, we'll learn a lot more than we think we will well.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 32:13 And there's so many different genres of writing, right? There's horror, there's fiction, there's non fiction, there's children's books, you know, but those are all storytellers too, in a different way.   Michael Hingson ** 32:24 Well, they are and and again, it's the the point is, though, that when you take the time to write, you really have to think about it, probably even more than, sometimes, than people, when they just talk about things. And as you're writing, like I said, you learn a lot no matter what genre of writing you're doing, you're putting yourself into it, and that, in of itself, helps educate and teach you   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 32:53 absolutely, you know, and I learned so much from a lot of the authors that were on Tea Time, You know, little tricks and little ways of making skits and scenes and characters and names for their characters. And I'd be like, well, where'd you get that name? And they'd be like, I don't know what, just a childhood name that was stuck with me for a long time. I really liked meeting authors that wrote their memoirs or stories, because I'm a person that likes truth. I'm a truth seeker. You know, if it doesn't, it doesn't match up. I'm just like, let me ask you more questions. Let me take you down this rabbit hole a little more. So,   Michael Hingson ** 33:35 yeah, well, a lot of people tend to not want to talk about their journey or talk about themselves, and they feel unseen and unheard. How would you advise them? What would you advise them to do?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 33:51 I felt that way for many years. Michael, growing up in the in the situation that I grew up in, right? You did, and I wrote my first book. I was a co author in the Sacred Hearts rising series by compiled by Brenda Hammond in Alberta. And her book, hear me, kept reaching out to me. I kept hearing I didn't even know what the book was. It was just the title was hear me. And I kept saying, I want people to hear me. I want I want to be heard like, I want people to know this, like I'm tired of living in silence, you know, just to keep everybody hush hush, because everybody's comfortable. So I reached out to Brenda, and that's how my writing journey started. Was with Brenda, and I wrote my first chapter in there, and and it just continued to the ripple effect into other books and other anthologies and other people. And I find that the universe is guiding me, like bringing me to the people that I need to see. You know, like meeting you. Michael, like, had I not started a podcast and met Mickey Mickelson, I would have never met you. Michael, so Mm hmm.   Michael Hingson ** 34:54 And he continues to to be a driving force in helping a lot of authors. Absolutely.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 35:00 Absolutely, yeah. I'm not even sure how Mickey found me. We had a video call, and the next thing I knew, we were working together for three years, and I got to meet incredible authors through Mickey. Creative edge, and it's, it was one of the driving force of Tea Time with Miss Liz.   Michael Hingson ** 35:19 I can't remember exactly how I first heard of Mickey, either, but we we chatted, and we've been working together ever since.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 35:29 Yeah, Mickey is pretty awesome. I still keep my eyes on Mickey, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 35:36 and for those who don't know, Mickey is kind of a publicist. He works with authors and helps find podcasts and other opportunities for authors to talk about what they do and to interact with the world.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 35:50 Yeah. And then I got Yeah. And then I got to meet other people that found me on the airwave, through my press releases and through me speaking at different events. I had other people reach out with their authors and their members and all of that. And I got to meet some really incredible people, like I've had doctors on Tea Time. I've had Hollywood directors on Tea Time. I've had best selling authors like yourself Michael, like, you know, I got to meet some really incredible people. And then I got to meet other people as well that were doing movements and orphanages and stuff like that. We reached over 72 countries, you know, just people reaching out and saying, Hey, Miss Liz, can we have tea? And absolutely, let's sit down. Let's see what? Where you gotta go with your tea?   Michael Hingson ** 36:35 So you're in another season of tea time right now. No,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 36:39 I'm not. A lot of people are asking me to come back. I don't know if I will come back. I am working on, like I said, the E commerce drop shipping company for Miss Liz. I'm working on children's book. I'm working on poultry. I'm doing a lot of interviews now for my own books, daytime books and stuff like that. But I am reconsidering coming back maybe for a couple surprise podcast interviews. So   Michael Hingson ** 37:07 well, tell us about the E commerce site, the store.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 37:11 Well, that was supposed to be launched on my birthday. I like to give myself birthday gifts because I'm by myself a lot. So two years ago, I gave myself the tea books for my birthday. And this year I was supposed to give the E commerce drop shipping, where we opened a second branch of Miss Liz's tea, where we changed the letter A to E, so T, E, E instead of T, E, A. But if you look at my OMA, who comes from Germany, T in Germany, is tee, so we're still keeping almost T, we're just bringing it in a different way. And   Michael Hingson ** 37:45 what does it stand for? Do you have definition   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 37:50 of it for the for this T? We have transcend embrace and envision. So transcend beyond the story that we all tell. Embrace Your embrace the journey that you're on and envision your dreams and visions that you can move forward.   Michael Hingson ** 38:07 So how's the E commerce site coming?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 38:11 It's coming along. We got a couple of hiccups. I just want to make sure that everything is good to go. We have over 100 different products, and again, we do not have the tea beverage on the site. So you guys can see that Miss Liz is staying true to herself, that it is not about a beverage, but we do have an inner journey happening. So you'll have to check that out. So we have some some candles and some journals, some fashion that Miss Liz has created. So there's a lot of cool things that you'll see, and then we have some collaboration. So if any of the businesses out there would like to collaborate with missus, because I'm big on collaboration, we can maybe come up with a brand or or a journal or something that we can work two brands together to create a bigger inner journey for people   Michael Hingson ** 39:02 to enjoy. Is the site up.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 39:05 It was up, and we had to take it down because there were some glitches in it, and I wanted to make sure that it so we're hoping that it's going to be going for June 1. I don't like to set dates, because then I get disappointed, right? If something comes up. So it was supposed to be May 17, guys, and I know that a lot of people were looking forward to it. My children were looking forward to it because of the fashion. And there's something for everyone on on the new website, for children, for parent, for mothers, for fathers, for family. So I wanted to make sure that everybody was included.   Michael Hingson ** 39:41 Tell me about some of the fashion things.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 39:44 So we have inner journeys. So I had an eating disorder from the age of 12 Michael, so I had a body image all the time. So I wanted to make sure that we felt beautiful about ourselves. So we have some summer dresses. In there, we have some swimwear. Swimwear was another thing that I didn't really like to wear growing up. I like to be covered a lot. So we and then we have undergarments for people to feel beautiful within themselves. And then we have hoodies and T shirts. But we have messages, little tea messages from Miss Liz.   Michael Hingson ** 40:23 Now, are most of these fashion things mainly for women, or are there some men ones on there as well?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 40:28 No, we have men. Men have stories too. So there, there's, I thought. So, yeah, we have men in there. We and we have, I'm really big on having men share their stories, because I have a son. I've said this on many platforms. I would want my son to have the same services that his mother has. So of course, there's a men where in there, there are children's wear in there as well, and there's some puzzles and some diamond art and all of that. So there's a little bit of everything in there.   Michael Hingson ** 41:00 So how do you use all of the different mechanisms that you have to promote awareness? I think I know the answer to this, but I'd like you to tell how you're promoting awareness, mental health and otherwise awareness.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 41:15 I think the way that I'm promoting myself and my brand, Michael is just show up and be yourself, believe in yourself and stay true to yourself, be your real tea, you know. And the way that I'm branding and marketing it is, I'm breathing different. So when you hear tea, you think the beverage right away. Well, then when you hear Miss Liz, you know, Miss Liz is not bringing a beverage. So right over the way you're getting different, right? And I like to keep people on your toes, because they think that they might know what's coming, but they don't know same as, like the fashion, where you might think you know what's coming, but then you'll be like, Whoa. This is not what I was thinking.   Michael Hingson ** 41:54 And you and you put as you said, sayings and other things on there, which help promote awareness as   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 41:59 well. Absolutely, yeah, and it's simple phrases that I use all the time. You tell me, I can't, and I'll show you I can. You know, it lives in you. These are some of the brand messages that I have on my on my merchandise. Also, men have stories too simple phrases. You know that we just gotta make awareness. It's so simple sometimes that we overthink it and we overdo it, that we just gotta keep it simple.   Michael Hingson ** 42:28 Mm, hmm. Which? Which make perfect sense? Yeah. So you, you talk a lot about mental health. Have we made improvements in society regarding mental health, and how do we do more to represent marginalized voices? Oh,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 42:50 we got lots of work to do. Michael, we're not even close, you know, we're just on the touch of the iceberg for mental health. We have all these organizations that are competing with each other instead of collaborating. I think we would really make a huge difference if we started working together instead of against each other. Or my service is better than your service. Let's start just collaborating together and working together as one. You know that all this division in the mental health world is what's causing the distractions and the delays in services and and getting help? You know, I think we just need to start working together. And collaboration is not weakness. It's not taking somebody else's product away. It's working together. It's teamwork. And I think we need more teamwork out there.   Michael Hingson ** 43:41 We also need to somehow do more to educate the governments to provide some of the funding that they should be providing to help this process.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 43:51 Absolutely, and I think the statuses need to really be looked at. They're not even close.   Michael Hingson ** 43:59 Yeah, I I agree there, there's a long way to go to to deal with it,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 44:04 absolutely. You know, just throwing numbers out there to have numbers, but not actually getting the real factual information out there can cause a lot more damage.   Michael Hingson ** 44:17 So if you could shift one mindset regarding mental health, what would it   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 44:24 be? Oh, good question. Michael, hmm, that we're not alone, okay, because a lot of people with mental illness think they're alone, but we're actually not alone. There's, there's a lot of people out there that are feeling the same thing as us,   Michael Hingson ** 44:47 and that's a mindset that people have, that we need to to deal with. We need to change. We need to teach people that the reality. Is there a lot of people, whether they've experienced the same things as as any individual has or not, isn't the issue. But there are a lot of people who do want to be more welcoming, and there are a lot of people who could learn to be more welcoming than they are   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 45:18 absolutely Well, I think it starts with a conversation, right? Having these conversations, a lot of people don't want to talk about mental health because they don't want to know the truth. They just want to know what society says, right, what the system say, what the services say, but they're not actually advocating for themselves. I think if we all started advocating for our mental health, we would make the impact and the change as well,   Michael Hingson ** 45:45 yeah, but we need to really, somehow develop a collective voice and Absolutely, and that's part of the problem. I know that with the world of disabilities in general, the difficulty is that, although it is probably well, it is one of the largest minorities, maybe the second largest in the world, depending on whether you want to consider women the minority. Although there are more women than men, or men the minority, the reality is that the difficulty is that there are so many different kinds of disabilities that we face and some that we don't even recognize. But the problem is that everyone totally interacts within their own disability to the point where they don't find ways to work together nearly as as much as they can. And it doesn't mean that each disability isn't unique, because they are, and that needs to be addressed, but there's a lot more power if people learn to work together   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 46:46 exactly. I'm with you, with that, Michael, because there's so many disabilities that you don't see right, that you don't hear about, somebody will talk about a new diagnosis that nobody knows about or is unaware of, like when I, when I talk about conversion disorder, a lot of people don't know about it, and I'm just like, check it out. You know, I'm a lady that actually has crazy papers, so if I go a little crazy on people, I can get away with it. I got the paper for it, right? So, but the thing is, the doctors, they they need more education as well. They need to be educated as well, not just the society, not just the public, but also the doctors that are working in those   Michael Hingson ** 47:29 fields. There's so many examples of that. You know, website access for people with disabilities is a major issue, and we don't teach in most schools, in most places where we where we have courses to instruct people on how to code, we don't really make making websites inclusive and accessible a major part of the courses of study, and so the result is that we don't tend to provide a mechanism where people shift their mindset and realize how important it is to make sure that their websites are fully inclusive to all. It's the same kind of concept. Yeah.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 48:12 Well, I think we all could learn a little bit more, right when we when we all get to this point where we we've learned everything. I think that's where society gets ignorant towards disability, right? You know, living with disability myself, Michael, I've had a lot of people say, Well, you look fine. There's nothing wrong with you. Why? Why? Why you like this? You know, why? And my answer is, why are you that way? Why are you judging something you're not seeing? You know, it's just like in grief, you don't see grief. It lives within us. You don't see abuse. The person is usually living within a home that is told what happens in the home. Stays in a home, you know, or they they try to mask it and hide the real truth, right? Yeah, and that, and that's a form of trauma as well, because we're being told to hush. So then when we start speaking, well, then we start doubting ourselves, right? The self doubt kicks in, oh, maybe I shouldn't say that, or I shouldn't do that, or I shouldn't, you know, be there. So you start to self doubt everything. I did that for many years. I self doubt why I was in a room with a bunch of people, or why I was speaking at that event, or why I wrote in that book, or and then I was just like, You know what? I am enough, and we all are enough, and we all can be seen in a different light. My   Michael Hingson ** 49:41 favorite example illustrating some of what you're talking about is that I had a phone conversation with someone once, and arranged for them to come to our apartment. I was on campus at the time, living in an on campus apartment, and the guy came out that afternoon, and I answered the door and he said, I'm looking for Michael Hinks. And I said, I'm Michael. Hanks, and his comment was, you didn't sound blind on the telephone. Now, I've never understood what it means to sound blind, but whatever. Wow. Yeah, it's, it's amazing, you know. And I was polite enough not to say, Well, you didn't sound stupid on the phone either. But yeah,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 50:22 right, that that would, that would be something I would say. Now, back in the day, I was a little mouse, now I'm a lion, and I'm just like, oh, yeah, right. Like, tap for Taft man, like,   Michael Hingson ** 50:33 Well, yeah, but there, there are ways to deal with things like that. But it, it still worked out. But it was just an amazing thing that he said, yeah,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 50:43 it surprises me what some people say. Sometimes I'm just like, Really, wow.   Michael Hingson ** 50:50 So you've done well, a lot of international speaking. Where have you traveled to speak?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 50:55 I spoke in Detroit in 2020, 20 or 2021, I can't remember the year Michael, but I spoke at the Sean fair tour, and I spoke on tea, of course, and my journey, and my story and my journey on how I'm just a different woman who wants to come to the table and make a difference. I just want to show people that if as long as we're trying, we can make a difference, as long as we're showing up, tired, broke, frustrated, we're making a difference, you know? And that's, that's my message to everybody, is just show up, just be you, and not everybody needs to like you, you know. I'm not everyone's cup of tea, and I don't want to be everyone's cup of tea.   Michael Hingson ** 51:38 Mm, hmm. You can only do and should only do what you do, yeah, but   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 51:44 And yeah. And then I'll be speaking in October. I just spoke at an event here in Cornwall, in my local area, for empowered to recovery with Jay Bernard. Bernard, and in October, I'll be speaking in North Bay for an elementary student, my sister and she actually went to school with my sister. She actually found me through my books. And she's she runs this youth group, and she'd like me to go speak to the youths on empowerment and and and the tea, of course,   Michael Hingson ** 52:16 always worth talking to kids. It's so much fun. Yeah. Yeah. And the neat thing about the most neat thing about speaking to children is there's so much more uninhibited. They're not afraid to ask questions, which is so great.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 52:32 I love questions like, I I love when I talk to people and they have some questions like, What? What is this tea that you keep talking about? And I'm just like, the tea is just the grab guys. It's just to get you hooked. It's like going fishing and catching a good fish, like, I put the hook in the water, and you all come and you join and you have a tea with me.   Michael Hingson ** 52:56 But still, children are so much more uninhibited. If, if I deliver a talk, mainly to kids, even kindergarten through sixth or seventh grade, they're much more open to asking questions. Sometimes they have to be encouraged a little bit. But boy, when the questions start, the kids just keep coming up with them, which is so great.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 53:20 Great. It's that ripple effect that first person to break the ice, to ask the first question, and then it just rolls.   Michael Hingson ** 53:26 It's a lot harder with adults to get them to to do that. Yeah, and it is. It is, even then, though, when adults start to ask questions, and the questions open up, then we get a lot of good interactions, but it is more of a challenge to get adults to open and ask questions than it is children. And it's so much fun because you never know what question a child is going to ask, which is what makes it so fun, too, because there's so much more uninhibited   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 54:01 and the imagination of a child. I love speaking like what my granddaughter, she's four, and the conversations we have about dragons and tooth fairies and and good monsters, because I don't like bad monsters, she knows grandma doesn't like bad monsters, so we talk about good monsters. And it's just the stories, the imagination, that opens up new, new ways of seeing things and seeing life. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 54:29 you've gotten a number of awards, humanitarian awards, and and other kinds of awards. Tell me a little bit about those.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 54:36 Honestly, Michael, I don't know how I got those awards. I was just being myself, and I guess a lot of people nominated me for stuff, and they were just like, you gotta check this. Miss Liz out, you know, and even some awards, I'm just like, Why me? You know, all I did was be myself. I'm grateful for them, I and I appreciate the awards. But. I don't, I don't want to be known for the awards, if that makes any sense.   Michael Hingson ** 55:03 Mm, hmm, I understand well, but you've been successful. What does success mean to you?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 55:10 Success means showing up for myself.   Michael Hingson ** 55:14 Tell me more about that.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 55:17 Of course. You know, success is different for everybody, right? Some people want the million dollars they want. They want the best seller they want. You know, they want the big business. They want the big house. For me, success is just showing up. Growing up. Nobody showed up for me. So I knew at a young age I had to show up for myself, and that was my success story. Was just showing up. There's days I really don't want to be here. I'm just tired of showing up, but I still show up tired, you know. So that's my success story, and I think that's going to be my success story until the day I die. Michael is just show up.   Michael Hingson ** 55:58 Well, there's a lot to be said for showing up, and as long as you do show up, then people get to see you, right? Yeah, which is, which is the whole point. And again, as we talked about earlier, that's the choice that you made. So you decided that you were going to show up and you were going to be you, and you also talk about it, which is, I think, extremely important, because so many people won't, not a criticism. But last year, I spoke at the Marshfield, Missouri Cherry Blossom Festival in April of 2024 and it was a and every year they hold this festival, and it's a celebration of American history. One of the people there was a secret service agent who rode in the car right behind JFK when he was assassinated, and it took him 45 years before he could talk about it. It was that traumatic for him, and he just wasn't able to move on. Eventually he was able to talk about it, and he was at the festival, as I was last year, and did speak about it. But it's it is hard, it is a major endeavor and effort to make the choice to show up, to to face whatever you have to deal with and move on from it or move on with it. I, you know, I talk about Karen, my wife passing, and I will never say I move on from Karen. I continue to move forward, but I don't want to move on. I don't want to forget her Absolutely. And there's a big difference between moving on and moving forward. I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, no, go ahead. Michael, no, that's it.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 57:45 You know, we look at life differently, right? Different perspectives and, and that's the whole thing with the T is looking at life differently. We all have a past, we all have a present, and we all have a future, right? And it's how we look at our past. Do we stay stuck in our past, like a lot of people are, mislead your in the past? No, I'm not. I speak of the past, but I'm not in the past. I'm in the present moment, and my trauma is real and it's raw, and I'm dealing with it, and I'm healing from it. And the future, I don't know where the future's taking me. I just buckle up and go for the adventure and see where it takes me. If it means writing another book or it means taking a trip or getting a job in a third world country, that's where I go. I'm, you know, moving forward from all of the trauma that I've lived through. I don't want to forget it. Mm, hmm. A lot of people like I would you change anything? No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't change a single thing.   Michael Hingson ** 58:45 There's a difference between remembering and being aware of it and being bitter and hating it. And I think that's the important part,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 58:53 yeah. And speaking of the past is not it's not a bad thing. It because the past is part of us, right? We were little kids once upon a time like there, you know, not everything was all bad. There was good moments. You know, there was more bad times for me than there was good, but there were good moments. I had good memories of spending with my grandparents on the farm and, you know, playing in the wrecked up cars and pretending I was a race car driver and stuff like that, you know, playing in the mud, making mud pies, putting them in the oven. You know, these were good memories that I have, you know, so those are what I hold on to. I hold on to the good stuff. I don't hold on to that heavy stuff.   Michael Hingson ** 59:33 Well, at least at this point, what do you see in the future for Miss Liz   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 59:39 travel? I so want to travel. I, you know, I've traveled the world, well, 72 countries, in this rocking chair. I would like to take this rocking chair in person. I would like to have a stage. I would like to have people come and talk and share their stories on a miss Liz's platform stage. That is the goal for Miss Liz.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:01 To travel and to really meet people from a lot of new and different places,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:00:07 absolutely, and meet all the guests I had on Tea Time. That is one of my goals. So when the universe gets on my good side, maybe I'll be traveling and meeting you face to face one day, Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:18 or we'll travel up there when, when we can, I know right now there are many challenges because of our governments putting roadblocks in the way. I've applied to speak at several events in Canada, and I've been told right now, well, the political situation, political situation is such that we can't really bring anybody in from the United States. And, you know, I understand that. I I think that there's so much to add, but I also understand that they don't want to take those chances, and that's fine.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:00:48 Yeah, we've been told the same, no traveling, vice versa. There's so, you know, it will calm itself down. We just got to give it some   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:57 time. It will, you know, it isn't going to go on forever, and we'll just have to deal with it. Well, if you had the opportunity to go back and give your younger Miss Liz some advice, what would it be? Drink More tea. Drink More tea of the liquid kind or the other kind.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:01:17 No. Drink the real stuff like drink, the beverage, drink the real stuff. Like, you know, speaking of tea all the time, you know, my favorite tea is jasmine tea. I wish I could drink more jasmine tea, but when I drink jasmine tea, it brings it brings back a memory of my Uma, and it it's hard for me so but drink more tea, like, actually sit down and have more conversations with OMA and see what else OMA had in   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:44 the back there for her. Yeah. Well, there you go. Well, I, I must say, I've never been a coffee drinker, but I got converted to drinking tea years ago, and I've been doing it ever since. My favorite is PG Tips, black tea, and I can get it from Amazon, so we do it.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:01:59 That's a good one too. Yeah, I'm not a real big tea drinker, but guys, I do know a little bit about tea.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:06 Well, I drink it more because it's a hot drink and it's got less calories than hot chocolate. Otherwise, I would be drinking hot chocolate all the time. But after September 11, I tend to clear my throat a lot, so drinking hot beverages helps, and I've just never liked coffee like I've learned to like tea, so I drink tea.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:02:26 Yeah. What's for you? Yeah, he's good for you. Look what it did to me. It made me who I am today.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:32 There you are in so many ways. Well, I want to than

While I discuss often how I prepared for an emergency while working in the World Trade Center I, of course, did not anticipate anything happening that would threaten my life. However, when a major emergency occurred, I was in fact ready. I escaped and survived. Since September 11, 2001, I have met many people who in one way or another work to help others plan for emergencies. Sometimes these people are taken seriously and, all too often, they are ignored.   I never truly understood the difference between emergency preparedness and business continuity until I had the opportunity to have this episode's guest, Chris Miller, on Unstoppable Mindset. I met Chris as a result of a talk I gave in October 2024 at the conference on Resilience sponsored in London England by the Business Continuity Institute.   Chris was born and lived in Australia growing up and, in fact, still resides there. After high school she joined the police where she quickly became involved in search and rescue operations. As we learn, she came by this interest honestly as her father and grandfather also were involved in one way or another in law enforcement and search and rescue.   Over time Chris became knowledgeable and involved in training people about the concept of emergency preparedness.   Later she expanded her horizons to become more involved in business continuity. As Chris explains it, emergency preparedness is more of a macro view of keeping all people safe and emergency preparedness aware. Business Continuity is more of a topic that deals with one business at a time including preparing by customizing preparedness based on the needs of that business.   Today Chris is a much sought after consultant. She has helped many businesses, small and large, to develop continuity plans to be invoked in case of emergencies that could come from any direction.     About the Guest:   Chris has decades of experience in all aspects of emergency and risk management including enterprise risk management. For 20 years, she specialised in ‘full cycle' business continuity management, organisational resilience, facilitating simulation exercises and after-action reviews.   From January 2022 to July 2024, Chris worked as a Short-Term Consultant (STC) with the World Bank Group in Timor-Leste, the Kingdom of Eswatini (formerly Swaziland) and the South Asia Region (SAR) countries – Bhutan, Bangladesh, Nepal, India, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, and Thailand.   Other clients have ranged in size from 2 to more than 100,000 employees. She has worked with large corporates such as NewsCorp; not for profits; and governments in Australia and beyond.   Chris has received several awards for her work in business continuity and emergency management. Chris has presented at more than 100 conferences, facilitated hundreds of workshops and other training, in person and virtually. In 2023, Chris became the first woman to volunteer to become National President and chair the Board of the Australasian Institute of Emergency Services (AIES) in its soon to be 50-year history.   Ways to connect with Chris:   https://b4crisis.com.au/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrismillerb4crisis/ with 10+K followers https://x.com/B4Crisis with 1990 followers     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. . Well, hi everyone, and I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, and today, I guess we get to talk about the unexpected, because we're going to be chatting with Chris Miller. Chris is in Australia and has been very heavily involved in business continuity and emergency management, and we'll talk about all that. But what that really comes down to is that she gets to deal with helping to try to anticipate the unexpected when it comes to organizations and others in terms of dealing with emergencies and preparing for them. I have a little bit of sympathy and understanding about that myself, as you all know, because of the World Trade Center, and we got to talk about it in London last October at the Business Continuity Institute, which was kind of fun. And so we get to now talk about it some more. So Chris, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Chris Miller ** 02:22 Oh, thanks very much, Michael, and I was very impressed by your presentation, because in the emergency space, preparedness is everything that is the real return on investment. So you were wonderful case study of preparedness.   Michael Hingson ** 02:37 Well, thank you. Now I forget were you there or were you listening or watching virtually.   Chris Miller ** 02:42 I was virtual that time. I have been there in person for the events in London and elsewhere. Sometimes they're not in London, sometimes in Birmingham and other major cities, yeah, but yeah, I have actually attended in person on one occasion. So it's a long trip to go to London to go.   Michael Hingson ** 03:03 Yeah, it is. It's a little bit of a long trip, but still, it's something that, it is a subject worth talking about, needless to say,   Chris Miller ** 03:13 Absolutely, and it's one that I've been focusing on for more than 50 years.   Michael Hingson ** 03:18 Goodness, well, and emergencies have have been around for even longer, but certainly we've had our share of emergencies in the last 50 years.   Chris Miller ** 03:30 Sure have in your country and mine, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 03:34 Well, let's start maybe, as I love to do, tell us a little bit about the early Chris growing up and all that sort of stuff that's funny to talk about the early days.   Chris Miller ** 03:47 Well, I came from a family that loved the mountains, and so it was sort of natural that I would sort of grow up in the mountains close to where I was born, in Brisbane and southeast Queensland. And we have a series of what we call coastal ranges, or border ranges, between Queensland and New South Wales, which are two of the largest states in Australia. And so I spent a lot of time hunting around there. So I sort of fell into emergency management just by virtue of my parents love of the mountains and my familiarity with them and and then I joined the police, and in no time at all, I was training other people to do search and rescues. And that was me in the early days.   Michael Hingson ** 04:31 What got you involved in dealing with search and rescue?   Chris Miller ** 04:36 Oh, it was volunteer in those days. It still is now actually with the State Emergency Service, but it's sort of become more formalized. It used to be sort of, you know, friends and family and people that knew the territory would help out from somebody managed to get themselves a bit tangled up some of those coastal ranges, even to this day, I. You can't use GPS because it's rain forest, and so the rain forest canopy is so dense that you'd have to cut trees down, and it's a national park, you can't do that and or climb the tree. Good luck with that one. You still can't get satellite coverage, so you actually have to know the country. But what?   Michael Hingson ** 05:24 What caused you to actually decide to take that up or volunteer to do that? That's, you know, pretty, pretty interesting, I would think, but certainly something that most people don't tend to do.   Chris Miller ** 05:38 Well, my family's interest in there. My parents have always been very community minded, so, you know, and it's the Australian way, if someone needs help and you can help, you throw them do so,   Michael Hingson ** 05:51 okay, that makes sense. So you joined the police, and you got very much involved in in dealing with search and rescue. And I would presume, knowing you, that you became pretty much an expert in it as much as one can.   Chris Miller ** 06:06 Oh, well, I wouldn't be so reckless as to say experts, because there's always so much to learn. And, yeah, and the systems keep changing. I mean, with GPS and and, for instance, in the early days of search and rescue helicopters were a rare treat. Now they're sort of part of the fabric of things. And now there's drones, and there's all sorts of high tech solutions that have come into the field in the lengthy time that I've been involved in. It's certainly not just ramping around the bush and hoping to find someone it's a lot more complex, but   Michael Hingson ** 06:41 as you but as you pointed out, there are still places where all the tech in the world isn't necessarily going to help. Is it   Chris Miller ** 06:52 exactly and interestingly, my mother in her teenage years, was involved with a fellow called Bernard O'Reilly, and he did a fantastic rescue of a plane crash survivors and and he he claimed that he saw a burnt tree in the distance. Well, I've stood on the Rift Valley where he claimed to see the burnt tree, and, my goodness, he's also it must have been better than mine, because it's a long way, but he was a great believer in God, and he believed that God led him to these people, and he saved them. And it's fascinating to see how many people, over the years, have done these amazing things. And Bernard was a very low key sort of fellow, never one to sort of see publicity, even though he got more than He probably wanted. And they've been television series and movies and, goodness knows, books, many books written about this amazing rescue. So I sort of grew up with these stories of these amazing rescues. And my father came from Tasmania, where his best friend David ended up mountain rescue. So I sort of was born into it. It was probably in my genes, and it just no escaping   Michael Hingson ** 08:12 you came into it naturally, needless to say, so that just out of curiosity, you can answer or not. But where does all of this put you in terms of believing in God,   Chris Miller ** 08:25 oh, well, there's probably been points in my life where I've been more of a believer than ever.   Michael Hingson ** 08:33 Yeah. Well, there. There are a lot of things that happen that often times we we seem not to be able to explain, and we we chalk it up to God's providence. So I suppose you can take that as you will. I've talked about it before on unstoppable mindset, but one of my favorite stories of the World Trade Center on September 11 was a woman who normally got up at seven every morning. She got up, got dressed, went to the World Trade Center where she worked. I forget what floor she was on, but she was above where the planes would have hit, and did hit. But on this particular day, for some reason, she didn't set her alarm to go off at 7am she set it accidentally to go off at 7pm so she didn't get up in time, and she survived and wasn't in the World Trade Center at all. So what was that? You know, they're just so many stories like that, and it, it certainly is a reason to keep an open mind about things nevertheless,   Chris Miller ** 09:39 well, and I've also worked with a lot of Aboriginal people and with the World Bank, with with other people that have, perhaps beliefs that are different to what we might consider more traditional beliefs in Western society. And it's interesting how their spirituality their belief system. Yeah. Has often guided them too soon.   Michael Hingson ** 10:03 Well, there's, there's something to be said for that. Needless to say, well, so you, did you go to college? Or did you go out of whatever high school type things and then go into the police? Or what?   Chris Miller ** 10:18 Um, yes, I joined the police from high school, I completed my high school graduation, as you call it in America, police academy, where in Brisbane, Oxley and then the Queensland Police Academy, and subsequent to that, I went to university part time while I was a police officer, and graduated and so on and so   Michael Hingson ** 10:41 on. So you eventually did get a college degree.   10:45 True, okay,   Michael Hingson ** 10:48 well, but you were also working, so that must have been pretty satisfying to do,   Chris Miller ** 10:55 but, but it was tricky to especially when you're on shift work trying to going to excuse me, study and and hold on a more than full time job?   Michael Hingson ** 11:09 Yeah, had to be a challenge. It was,   Chris Miller ** 11:13 but it was worth it and, and I often think about my degree and the learnings I did psychology and sociology and then how it I often think a university degree isn't so much the content, it's it's the discipline and the and the analysis and research and all the skills that you Get as part of the the process. It's important.   Michael Hingson ** 11:42 Yeah, I agree. I think that a good part of what you do in college is you learn all about analysis, you learn about research, you learn about some of these things which are not necessarily talked about a lot, but if you you do what you're supposed to do. Well those are, are certainly traits that you learn and things that you you develop in the way of tools that can help you once you graduate,   Chris Miller ** 12:13 absolutely and continue to be valuable and and this was sort of reinforced in the years when I was post graduate at the University of Queensland, and was, was one of the representatives on the arts faculty board, where we spend a lot of time actually thinking about, you know, what is education? What are we trying to achieve here? Not just be a degree factory, but what are we actually trying to share with the students to make them better citizens and contribute in various ways.   Michael Hingson ** 12:50 Yeah, I know that last year, I was inducted as an alumni member of the Honor Society, phi, beta, kappa, and I was also asked to deliver the keynote speech at the induction dinner for all of the the students and me who were inducted into phi, Beta Kappa last June. And one of the things that I talked about was something that I've held dear for a long time, ever since I was in college, a number of my professors in physics said to all of us, one of the things that you really need to do is to pay attention to details. It isn't enough to get the numeric mathematical answer correct. You have to do things like get the units correct. So for example, if you're talking about acceleration, you need to make sure that it comes out meters per second squared. It isn't just getting a number, but you've got to have the units and other things that that you deal with. You have to pay attention to the details. And frankly, that has always been something that has stuck with me. I don't, and I'm sure that it does with other people, but it's always been something that I held dear, and I talked about that because that was one of the most important things that I learned out of college, and it is one of the most important things that helped me survive on September 11, because it is all about paying attention to the details and really learning what you can about whatever you need to learn, and making sure that you you have all the information, and you get all the information that you can   Chris Miller ** 14:34 absolutely and in the emergency space, it's it's learning from what's happened and right, even Though many of the emergencies that we deal with, sadly, people die or get badly injured or significant harm to their lives, lifestyle and economy and so on, I often think that the return for them is that we learn to do better next. Time that we capture the lessons and we take them from just lessons identified to lessons learned, where we make real, significant changes about how we do things. And you've spoken often about 911 and of course, in Australia, we've been more than passingly interested in what the hell happened there. Yeah, in terms of emergency management too, because, as I understand it, you had 20, 479, months of fire fighting in the tunnels. And of course, we've thought a lot about that. In Australia, we have multi story buildings in some of our major cities. What if some unpleasant people decided to bring some of them down? They would be on top of some of our important infrastructure, such as Metro tunnels and so on. Could we manage to do 20, 479, months of fire fighting, and how would that work? Do we have the resources? How could we deploy people to make that possible? So even when it isn't in your own country, you're learning from other people, from agencies, to prepare your country and your situation in a state of readiness. Should something unpleasant   Michael Hingson ** 16:16 happen? I wonder, speaking of tunnels, that's just popped into my head. So I'll ask it. I wonder about, you know, we have this war in the Middle East, the Israeli Hamas war. What have we learned about or from all of the tunnels that Hamas has dug in in Gaza and so on? What? What does all that teach us regarding emergency preparedness and so on, or does it   Chris Miller ** 16:46 presently teaches us a lot about military preparedness. And you know, your your enemy suddenly, suddenly popping up out of the out of the under underground to take you on, as they've been doing with the idea as I understand it,   Michael Hingson ** 17:03 yeah. But also,   Chris Miller ** 17:06 you know, simplistic solutions, like some people said, Well, why don't you just flood the tunnels and that'll deal with them. Except the small problem is, if you did that, you would actually make the land unlivable for many years because of salination. So it just raises the questions that there are no simple solutions to these challenging problems in defense and emergency management. And back to your point about detail, you need to think about all your options very carefully. And one of the things that I often do with senior people is beware of one track thinking. There is no one solution to any number of emergencies. You should be thinking as broadly as possible and bringing bringing in the pluses and minuses of each of those solutions before you make fairly drastic choices that could have long term consequences, you know, like the example of the possible flooding of the tunnel, sounds like a simple idea and has some appeal, but there's lots of downsides to   Michael Hingson ** 18:10 much less, the fact that there might very well be people down there that you don't want to see, perishes,   Chris Miller ** 18:20 yeah, return to their families. I'm sure they'd like that. And there may be other people, I understand that they've been running medical facilities and doing all sorts of clever things in the tunnel. And those people are not combatants. They're actually trying to help you, right?   Michael Hingson ** 18:37 Yeah, so it is one of those things that really points out that no solutions are necessarily easy at all, and we need to think pretty carefully about what we do, because otherwise there could be a lot of serious problems. And you're right   Chris Miller ** 18:55 exactly, and there's a lot of hard choices and often made hastily in emergency management, and this is one of the reasons why I've been a big defender of the recovery elements being involved in emergency management. You need to recovery people in the response activities too, because sometimes some of the choices you make in response might seem wonderful at the time, but are absolutely devastating in the recovery space, right?   Michael Hingson ** 19:25 Do you find that when you're in an emergency situation that you are afraid, or are you not afraid? Or have you just learned to control fear, and I don't mean just in a in a negative way, but have you learned to control sphere so that you use it as a tool, as opposed to it just overwhelming you.   Chris Miller ** 19:49 Yeah, sometimes the fee sort of kicks in afterwards, because often in the actual heat of the moment, you're so focused on on dealing with the problem. Problem that you really don't have time to be scared about it. Just have to deal with it and get on to next problem, because they're usually coming at you in a in a pretty tsunami like why? If it's a major incident, you've got a lot happening very quickly, and decisions need to be made quickly and often with less of the facts and you'd like to have at your fingertips to make some fairly life changing decisions for some people. But I would think what in quite tricky,   Michael Hingson ** 20:33 yeah, but I would think what that means is that you learn to control fear and not let it overwhelm you, but you learn that, yeah, it's there, but you use it to aid you, and you use it to help move you to make the decisions as best you can, as opposed to not being able to make decisions because you're too fearful,   Chris Miller ** 21:00 right? And decision paralysis can be a real issue. I remember undertaking an exercise some years back where a quite senior person called me into his office when it was over, was just tabletop, and he said, I'm not it. And I went. He said, I'm not really a crisis manager. I'm good in a business as usual situation where I have all the facts before me, and usually my staff have had weeks, months to prepare a detailed brief, provide me with options and recommendations I make a sensible decision, so I'm not really good on the fly. This is not me and and that's what we've been exercising. Was a senior team making decisions rather quickly, and he was mature enough person to realize that that wasn't really his skill set,   Michael Hingson ** 21:55 his skill set, but he said,   Chris Miller ** 21:59 he said, but I've got a solution. Oh, good, my head of property. Now, in many of the businesses I've worked with, the head of property, it HR, work, health and safety, security, all sorts of things go wrong in their day. You know, they can, they can come to the office and they think they're going to do, you know, this my to do list, and then all of a sudden, some new problem appears that they must deal with immediately. So they're often really good at dealing with whatever the hell today's crisis is. Now, it may not be enough to activate business continuity plan, but it's what I call elasticity of your business as usual. So you think you're going to be doing X, but you're doing x plus y, because something's happened, right? And you just reach out and deal with it. And those people do that almost on a daily basis, particularly if it's a large business. For instance, I worked with one business that had 155 locations in Australia? Well, chances are something will go wrong in one of those 155 locations in any given day. So the property manager will be really good at dealing, reaching out and dealing with whatever that problem is. So this, this senior colleague said, Look, you should make my property manager the chair of this group, and I will hand over delegations and be available, you know, for advice. But he should leave it because he's very good on the fly. He does that every day. He's very well trained in it by virtue of his business as usual, elasticity, smart move. And   Michael Hingson ** 23:45 it worked out,   Chris Miller ** 23:47 yes, yeah, we exercised subsequently. And it did work because he started off by explaining to his colleagues his position, that the head of property would step up to the plate and take over some more senior responsibilities during a significant emergency.   Michael Hingson ** 24:06 Okay, so how long were you with the police, and what did you do after that?   Chris Miller ** 24:17 With the police at nearly 17 years in Queensland, I had a period of operational work in traffic. I came from family of motorcycle and car racing type people, so yeah, it was a bit amusing that I should find my way there. And it actually worked out while I was studying too, because I had a bit of flexibility in terms of my shift rostery. And then when I started my masters, excuse me, my first masters, I sort of got too educated, so I had to be taken off operational policing and put the commissioner office. Hmm.   Michael Hingson ** 25:01 And what did you do there the commissioner's office?   Chris Miller ** 25:05 Yes. So I was much more involved in strategic planning and corporate planning and a whole lot of other moves which made the transition from policing actually quite easy, because I'd been much more involved in the corporate stuff rather than the operational stuff, and it was a hard transition. I remember when I first came out of operational policing into the commissioner's office. God, this is so dull.   Michael Hingson ** 25:32 Yeah, sitting behind a desk. It's not the same,   Chris Miller ** 25:37 not the same at all. But when I moved from policing into more traditional public service roles. I had the sort of requisite corporate skills because of those couple of years in the commission itself.   Michael Hingson ** 25:51 So when you Well, what caused you to leave the police and where did you go?   Chris Miller ** 25:59 Well, interestingly, when I joined, I was planning to leave. I sort of had three goals. One was get a degree leave at 30 some other thing, I left at 32 and I was head hunted to become the first female Workplace Health and Safety Inspector in Queensland, and at the time, my first and now late husband was very unwell, and I was working enormous hours, and I was offered a job with shorter hours and more money and a great opportunity. So I took it,   Michael Hingson ** 26:36 which gave you a little bit more time with family and him, exactly. So that was, was that in an emergency management related field,   Chris Miller ** 26:48 workplace health and safety, it can be emergencies, yeah? Well, hopefully not, yeah, because in the Workplace Health and Safety space, we would like people to prepare so there aren't emergency right? Well, from time to time, there are and and so I came in, what happened was we had a new act in Queensland, New Work, Health and Safety Act prior to the new Act, the police, fire and other emergency service personnel were statutory excluded from work health and safety provisions under the law in Queensland, the logic being their job was too dangerous. How on earth could you make it safe? And then we had a new government came in that wanted to include police and emergency services somehow or other. And I sort of became, by default, the Work Health and Safety Advisor for the Queensland Police at the time. There was no such position then, but somebody had to do it, and I was in the commissioner's office and showed a bit of interest that you can do that.   Michael Hingson ** 28:01 It's in the training,   Chris Miller ** 28:03 hmm, and, and I remember a particularly pivotal meeting where I had to be face the Deputy Commissioner about whether police would be in or out of that legislation, because they had to advise the government whether it's actually possible to to include police.   Michael Hingson ** 28:28 So what did you advise?   Chris Miller ** 28:31 Well, I gave him the pluses and minuses because whatever we decided it was going to be expensive, yeah, if we said no, politically, it was bad news, because we had a government that wanted us to say yes, and if we said yes, it was going to cost a lot of money make it happen.   Michael Hingson ** 28:49 What finally happened? Yes one, yes one, well, yeah, the government got its way. Do you think that made sense to do that was Yes, right.   Chris Miller ** 29:03 It always was. It always was right, because it was just nonsense that   Michael Hingson ** 29:11 police aren't included   Chris Miller ** 29:14 to exclude, because not every function of policing is naturally hazardous, some of it is quite right going forward and can be made safe, right, and even the more hazardous functions, such as dealing with armed offenders, it can be made safer. There are ways of protecting your police or increasing their bulletproof attire and various other pieces of training and procedures soon even possible.   Michael Hingson ** 29:51 But also part of that is that by training police and bringing them into it, you make them more. Which also has to be a positive in the whole process,   Chris Miller ** 30:05 absolutely, and I did quite a lot of work with our some people used to call them the black pajamas. They were our top of the range people that would deal with the most unpleasant customers. And they would train with our military in Australia, our counter terrorism people are trained with the military. The police and military train together because that expands our force capability. If something really disagreeable happens, so   Michael Hingson ** 30:42 it's got to start somewhere. So when, so all this wasn't necessarily directly related to emergency management, although you did a lot to prepare. When did you actually go into emergency management as a field?   Chris Miller ** 31:01 Oh, well. So I was involved in response when I was talking about rescue, search and rescue, and then increasingly, I became involved in exercising and planning, writing, procedures, training, all that, getting ready stuff, and then a lot more work in terms of debriefing, so observing the crisis centers and seeing if there could be some fine tuning even during the event, but also debriefing. So what did we actually learn? What do we do? Well, what might be do better next time? Well, there's some insights that the people that were most involved might have picked up as a result of this latest incident, whatever that might have been.   Michael Hingson ** 31:58 And so when you so where did you end up, where you actually were formally in the emergency management field?   Chris Miller ** 32:07 Well, emergency management is quite a broad field. Yeah, it's preparedness right through to response and recovery and everything in between. And so I've had involvement in all of that over the years. So from preparing with training and exercising right through to it's happening. You're hanging off the helicopter skids and so on.   Michael Hingson ** 32:34 So did you do this? Working   Chris Miller ** 32:36 it come back from you with a bit of a call. Oh, sorry. When through to response and recovery. You know, how are we going to respond? What are our options? What are our assets through to recovery, which is usually a long tail. So for instance, if it's a flood of fire or zone, it'll take a very long time to recover. You know, 911 you didn't rebuild towers and and rebuild that area quickly. It took years to put things back together again. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 33:11 the only thing about it is One can only hope that was we put things back together, and as we move forward, we also remember the lessons that we should learn from what happened in the past, absolutely, and I'm not sure that that always happens   Chris Miller ** 33:31 true, and that's why I often get a bit annoyed when I hear particularly politicians talk about lessons learned very hastily after The event. You know they say we will learn the lessons from this or that. No, don't you think? Because for those of us involved in the debriefing and lessons management space, we know that that you have observations, insights, lessons identified, but they're not learned, usually, until some considerable period thereafter when you make the necessary changes to training procedures, whatever it might be, so that those those learnings are embedded in the way forward.   Michael Hingson ** 34:18 Yeah, and not everybody learns the lessons who should learn the lessons, and they don't always listen to the people who really do understand. But you can only do what you can do as well. Well,   Chris Miller ** 34:34 we're trying to structure more of that with lessons management so that it's a lot less hit and miss. I mean, when I first came into emergency management, it was much more, much more, a sort of learning on the job, sometimes learning bad habits from people, and then gradually, hopefully and. Setting aside the bad habits and getting into the good habits. Now you can do a masters and PhDs in disaster management, thank goodness, so that we become much more sophisticated in terms of our evidence base and our research and our understanding. And as I said, this crossover so we learned a lot from what happened with 911 that might be applicable here in Australia, should something unpleasant in their larger cities happen too? So we learn from each other. It isn't a static environment, it's very much a fluid environment, and one that's moving forward. I'm happy to report.   Michael Hingson ** 35:40 Well, that's important that it moves forward and that we learn from what has happened now, of course, we have all sorts of things going on over here with air traffic controllers and losing communications and all sorts of other things that once again, causes people to need to learn how to very quickly react and make strong decisions and not panic with what's going on. I heard on the news this morning about somebody who saw two aircraft that were about to collide, and he was able to get them to divert so that they didn't hit each other, but radar hadn't detected it. So, you know, they're just the people are very resilient when they when they learn and understand what they need to do.   Chris Miller ** 36:34 And I've had the honor of working with air traffic controllers and doing some exercises with them. They're actually amazing people for a number of reasons. One is the stress levels of their job is just beyond belief. But two is they actually have to think in 3d so they've got their radar screens, which are 2d and they actually have to think in 3d which is a really rare and amazing skill. It's like a great sculptor. Yeah, in Europe, I've seen some wonderful sculpture, they actually have to think in 3d in terms of the positioning of their aircraft and how to deal with them. It's a it's a great set of skills, so never to be underestimated. And of course, it raises the question of aging infrastructure and an aging workforce too, something that in a lot of countries, yours and mine, it seems that we've been quite neglectful about legacy systems that we have not upgraded, and about the aging workforce that we have not invested enough effort in terms of bringing new people into the system so that, as our our long time warriors want to retire, and they're entitled to that can leave and Knowing that there will be more useful replacements.   Michael Hingson ** 38:04 I flew last week, and actually for one of my flights, sat next to an air traffic controller who was going to a meeting, which was fascinating. And same point was made that a lot of the infrastructure is anywhere from 25 to 50 years old, and it shouldn't be. It's so amazing that I would, I guess I would say our politicians, even though they've been warned so many times, won't really deal with upgrading the equipment. And I think enough is starting to happen. Maybe they will have to do it because too much is failing, but we'll see and to   Chris Miller ** 38:42 worry when people are doing things that are so important hastily. And interestingly, when I was exercising Sydney air traffic controllers, I usually got a glimpse of a new high tech solution that they were in the process of testing, which was going to put more cameras and more capability around the airfield than they'd ever had before, even though they're sitting in an $80 million tower that would be built for them with Australian tax dollars, but trying to get the system even more sophisticated, more responsive, because the flight levels coming in and out of Sydney continue to grow. 90% of Australians air traffic goes in and out of Sydney at some point in the day, yeah. So they're very busy there, and how can we provide systems that will support the capacity to do better for us and continue to maintain our sales flows?   Michael Hingson ** 39:50 So we met kind of through the whole issue of the business continuity Institute conference last year. What's the difference between emergency. Management and business continuity management   Chris Miller ** 40:03 interesting when I came out of emergency management, so things like the Bali bombings, the Indian Ocean tsunami and so on and so on. A deputy in the Department of Social Security where I used to work, said, oh, we need a business continuity manager. And I said, What's that? Yeah, excuse me, Hey, what's that? Well, I quickly learned it's basically a matter of scale. So I used to be in the business in emergencies, of focusing on the country, united, counter terrorism, all the significant parts of the country, blood, fire and so on, to one business at a time. So the basics of business, of emergency management, come across very neatly to business continuity. You're still preparing and responding and recovering, just on a smaller scale,   Michael Hingson ** 41:08 because you're dealing with a particular business at a time true, whereas emergency management is really dealing with it across the board.   Chris Miller ** 41:19 We can be the whole country, yeah, depending on what it is that you do in the emergency management space or a significant part of the country,   Michael Hingson ** 41:29 when did you kind of transition from emergency management and emergency preparedness on a on a larger scale to the whole arena of business continuity?   Chris Miller ** 41:40 Well, I still keep a foot in both camps. Actually, I keep, I keep boomeranging between them. It depends on what my clients want. Since I'm a consultant now, I move between both spaces.   Michael Hingson ** 41:57 When did you decide to be a consultant as opposed to working for our particular organization   Chris Miller ** 42:04 or the I was a bit burnt out, so I was happy to take a voluntary redundancy from the government and in my consultancy practice   Michael Hingson ** 42:12 from there, when did that start?   Chris Miller ** 42:16 October of 10.   Michael Hingson ** 42:18 October of 2010, yep. Okay, so you've been doing it for almost 15 years, 14 and a half years. Do you like consulting?   Chris Miller ** 42:29 Yeah, I do, because I get to work program people who actually want to have me on board. Sometimes when you work as a public servant in these faces. Yeah, you're not seen as an asset. You're a bit of an annoyance. When people are paying you as a consultant, they actually want you to be there,   Michael Hingson ** 42:55 yeah? Which? Which counts for something, because then you know that you're, you're going to be more valued, or at least that's the hope that you'll be more valued, because they really wanted to bring you in. They recognize what you what you brought to the table as it were.   Chris Miller ** 43:12 Yes, um, no, that's not to say that they always take your recommendations. Yeah. And I would learn to just, you know, provide my report and see what happens.   Michael Hingson ** 43:24 So was it an easy transition to go into the whole arena of business continuity, and then, better yet, was it an easy I gather it was probably an easy transition to go off and become a consultant rather than working as you had been before?   Chris Miller ** 43:39 Well, the hours are shorter and the pain is better.   Michael Hingson ** 43:41 There you are. That helps.   Chris Miller ** 43:48 Tell me if you would a lot more flexibility and control over my life that I didn't have when I was a full time public servant.   Michael Hingson ** 43:55 Yeah, yeah. And that that, of course, counts for a lot, and you get to exercise more of your entrepreneurial spirit, yes, but   Chris Miller ** 44:09 I think one of the things is I've often seen myself as very expensive public asset. The Australian taxpayer has missed a lot of time and effort in my training over very many years. Now they're starting to see some of the return on that investment   Michael Hingson ** 44:25 Well, and that's part of it. And the reality is, you've learned a lot that you're able to put to you, so you bring a lot of expertise to what you do, which also helps explain why you feel that it's important to earn a decent salary and or a decent consulting fee. And if you don't and people want to just talk you down and not pay you very much, that has its own set of problems, because then you wonder how much they really value what you what you bring.   Chris Miller ** 44:55 Yes. And so now i. Through the World Bank and my international consultancy work, I'm sharing some of those experiences internationally as well.   Michael Hingson ** 45:11 So you mentioned the World Bank, who are some of your clients, the people that you've worked with, the   Chris Miller ** 45:18 World Bank doesn't like you talking too much about what you do?   Michael Hingson ** 45:20 Yeah, that's, I was wondering more, what are some of the organizations you worked with, as opposed to giving away secrets of what you   Chris Miller ** 45:31 do? Well, for the wellbeing club, basically worked in the health sector in Africa and in APAC, okay, and that's involved working with Ministries of Health, you know, trying to get them in a better state of preparing this, get their plans and better shape, get them exercising those plans and all that kind of important stuff, stuff that we kind of take for granted in Our countries, in yours well, with FEMA, although, what's left of FEMA now? Yeah, but also in my own country, you know, we're planning and exercising and lessons management and all these things are just considered, you know, normal operations when you're talking to low and middle income countries. And no, that isn't normal operations. It's something that is still learning, and you have the honor to work with them and bring them into that sort of global fold about how these things are done.   Michael Hingson ** 46:35 Well, you worked in some pretty far away and and relatively poor countries and so on. I assume that was a little bit different than working in what some people might call the more developed countries. You probably had to do more educating and more awareness raising, also,   Chris Miller ** 46:55 yes and no. The African country I worked in a lot of these people had studied at Harvard and some of your better universities. But what I noticed was, as brilliant as those people were, and as well trained and educated, there weren't enough of them. And that was one of the real problems, is, is trying to expand the workforce with the necessary skills in emergency management or whatever else you might be trying to do pandemic preparedness or something. Don't have enough people on the ground in those countries that have the necessary skills and experience.   Michael Hingson ** 47:44 Were you able to help change that?   Chris Miller ** 47:48 Yeah, we set up some training programs, and hopefully some of those continue beyond our time with them.   Michael Hingson ** 47:58 So again, it is some awareness raising and getting people to buy into the concepts, which some will and some won't. I remember while at the Business Continuity Institute, one of the people said the thing about the people who attend the conference is they're the what if people, and they're always tasked with, well, what if this happens? What if that happens? But nobody listens to them until there's really an emergency, and then, of course, they're in high demand. Which, which I can understand.   Chris Miller ** 48:33 That's why you want exercises, because it raises awareness so that, so that the what if, the business continuity people are thinking that emergency managers are a bit more front of mind for some of the senior people, it's less of a surprise when something unpleasant happens. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 48:56 Well, how is the whole concept and the whole structure or theory of emergency management, changed. You've been involved in this a long time. So how has it evolved and changed over the years?   Chris Miller ** 49:10 Much more education, formal education, not learning on the job, actually going to university and learning properly, but much more evidence based, much more structured lessons management, much more technology. There's so many changes, at least to be very long.   Michael Hingson ** 49:31 Does AI come into play in emergency management? Yet,   Chris Miller ** 49:37 I think it's coming in. More and more we're using it for prediction of fire behavior and all sorts of things now,   Michael Hingson ** 49:47 yeah, and that, and that makes sense, that we're, we're starting to see where the whole technology and the whole ability to monitor so many things. Can tell us there's a fire starting or something is happening a lot more quickly than we used to be able to do it. I'm not sure that we're there yet with earthquakes, but even with earthquakes, we're getting warnings a little bit more quickly than we used to. We had an earthquake here in Southern California a couple of weeks ago, and I forget exactly, but it was a number of seconds that people had some decent warnings. So by the time it was analyzed and determined that there was going to be an earthquake, there was still time to issue a warning that alerted people, because she still had to react pretty quickly if you wanted to take advantage of it. But I think that we're only going to see more and more technological changes that will help the process be better,   Chris Miller ** 50:55 absolutely. And one of the big problems that we're having is a lot of our previous sort of fire mapping, fire behavior, flood mapping is out of date very quickly, because of development and climate change and all sorts of factors, previous behaviors are not actually a very good model, but an AI permits us to do things faster.   Michael Hingson ** 51:24 Yeah, we're going to have to just continue, certainly to encourage it. And again, it's one of those areas where the reality is all of the skills that we and tools that we can bring to the to the process are absolutely appropriate to do, because otherwise we just either take a step backward or we don't progress at all   Chris Miller ** 51:49 well. And to give you another example, um, Life Savers, New South Wales lifesavers. Here, I run the largest grain fleet in the country now for a long time, life saving used to be sort of volunteers, and in pretty old tech, not anymore, oh boy. And they're even looking at things like deploying life saving devices off their drones as they get bigger and smarter and heavier lifting to be able to drop things to people in distress. We're using it for shark netting, whereas we used to take a boat out and check the shark nets, now we can send the drones out, and then if you need to send the boat out, you're not wasting a lot of money chugging up and down in your boat. So there's all sorts of savings and adjustments in this space, in technology with AI and all sorts of other fancy devices like drones,   Michael Hingson ** 52:54 how about emergency management and so on, in terms of dealing with different kinds of people, like people with disabilities, people who are blind or deaf or hard of hearing, maybe heavy people, people who are in the autism spectrum and so on has emerged. Have emergency managers gotten better at dealing with different kinds of disabilities? How much real awareness raising and understanding has gone into all of that   Chris Miller ** 53:26 well. Towards the end of last year, there was a big package of work done by EMA Emergency Management Australia, being conducted in conjunction with AD the Australian Institute of disaster resiliency, and that's in the disability space and the whole lot of that's rolling out in workshops all over the country to try and do even better. Yes, it's still a weakness, I would have to agree, and we still need to do a whole lot better in that whole space of some of those vulnerable groups that you mentioned, and hopefully some of this important initiative that's sponsored by the government and will help raise awareness and improve response activities in the future.   Michael Hingson ** 54:15 I would also point out, and it's, of course, all about training to a degree, because, you know, people say, well, blind people can't do this, for example, or they can't do that. And the reality is, blind people can, if they're trained, if they gain self confidence, if they're given and put it in an environment where they're able to be given confidence to do things. The reality is, blindness isn't the challenge that most sighted people would believe it to be, but at the same time, I think that one of the biggest things, and I saw it on September 11, one of the biggest things, is information, or lack of information. I asked several times what was going on, and no one who clearly had to know. Who would say what was occurring. And I understand some of that because they they didn't know whether I would just panic because they said airplanes had deliberately been crashed into the towers or not. But also, I know that there was also a part of it, which was, when you're blind, you can't deal with any of that. We're not going to tell you, we don't have time to tell you. Information, to me, is the most important thing that you can provide, but I but I do appreciate there. There are two sides to it, but it is also important to recognize that, with a lot of people who happen to have different kinds of disabilities, providing information may very well be an enhancement to their circumstances, because they can make decisions and do things that they might not otherwise have been able to do. Well,   Chris Miller ** 55:50 it was certainly the case for you, because you had information and you had preparedness before 911 right? You were able to respond in more effective ways because you knew what was what. And we certainly saw that in covid, for instance, even things like translating information into different languages. In Australia, we have people from, I think the last census, 170 countries, they don't all speak English as their first language. And having worked with Aboriginal people for eight years, quite specifically, one of my dear friends, English was her sixth language.   Michael Hingson ** 56:32 But at the same time,   Chris Miller ** 56:33 go ahead, yeah, and yet we keep putting information out in all that well, no, we need to do much better in the language phase, in the preparedness space of people with all sorts of challenges. We need to reach out to those people so that as you were prepared for 911 and you knew where the fire escapes were, and this and that really paid benefits on the day that we've done that, that we've taken reasonable steps to prepare everyone in the community, not just the English speakers or the this or that, right? All people get the chance to understand their situation and prepare apparently,   Michael Hingson ** 57:22 I know that if I had had more information about what had occurred, I may very well have decided to travel a different way to leave or after leaving the tower and the building. I might have gone a different way, rather than essentially walking very much toward tower two and being very close to it when it collapsed. But I didn't have that information because they wouldn't provide that. So not helpful. Yeah, so things, things do happen. So I'm sure that along the way you've had funny experiences in terms of dealing with emergencies and emergency management. What's the funniest kind of thing that you ever ran into? I'll   Chris Miller ** 58:08 come back to the old packers, but just quickly, that whole crisis communication space is also a big development in emergency management. Yeah, a long time we kind of kept the information to ourselves, but we realize that knowledge is power. We need to get it out there to people. So we do a lot more with alerts on the phones and all sorts of clever things now, right? Funny things? Well, there's so many of those, which one probably most recently is the dreaded alpacas where I live now, as you see, well, as some people who might see the video of this, I live by the beach, which is pretty common for a lot of Australians. Anyway, we have had fires up in in a nice valley called kangaroo Valley. Then a lot of people that live there are sort of small farmlets. There are some dairy farms and people that are more scale farmers, but other people just have a small plot, excuse me, maybe a couple of horses or something or other. And and then when we had fires up there a few years back, we set up emergency evacuation centers for them, and we set them up for dogs and cats and small animals, and we had facility for horses at the nearby race grounds and so on. But we weren't expecting our hackers and alpacas are actually quite big, and they spit and do other things quite under manage. So I remember we rang up the race course manager and we said, we've got alpacas. What you got? What I. I said, Well, they're sort of about the size of a horse. He said, Yes, yes, but we know what to do with horses. We know what the hell to do without Yes. Anyway, eventually we moved the alpacas to horse stables and kept them away from the horses because we weren't sure how to do and interact. Yeah. And the owner of these alpacas was so attached to her animals that she she insisted on sleeping in her Carney her alpacas. And some people are very attached to their animals, even if they're a little on the large side. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:37 Well, I know during the fires that we had here in Southern California back in January, there were a number of people who had horses and were very concerned about evacuating them, and, of course, other animals as well. But the horses especially were were dealt with, and they had emergency well, they had places to take them if they could get the horses out. I don't know whether we lost horses or how many we lost during all the big fires, but yeah,   Chris Miller ** 1:01:10 I'm serious far as new Canberra, which is my city of residence for many years, and what happened? I decision. What happened was, quite often, the men were all fighting the fires, and the women were left with with smoke affected horses. Oh, and they were trying to get them onto the horse flight. Now, as we quickly discovered, horses are pretty smart, and they're not keen on being near fires. They don't want to be there, right? So they become quite a challenge to me. And to put a horse float onto your vehicle is no easy thing when you've never done it before and you're trying to do it in a crisis. So when all that was over, one of the lessons that we did learn was we arranged to have a sort of open day at the near, nearby race course. We've actually taught people to put the trailer on the back of the vehicle, to deal with a fractious horse, to sort of cover its face or protect it from the smoke and do all sorts of helpful things. So sometimes, when we get it wrong, we do learn and make some important improvements like it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:32 What's the kind of most important advice you would give to somebody who's new in emergency management or interested in going into the field   Chris Miller ** 1:02:42 and sign up for a good course, do a bachelor or master's degree in emergency management, because not only will you learn from your instructors, you'll learn from your colleagues, and this is a networking business,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:56 yeah. Well, I want to Oh, have you? I haven't asked you. Have you written any books? No, you haven't okay? Because if you had, I'd ask you to send me book covers so that we could put them in the show notes. Well, there's something for you to look at in the near future. You could learn to be an author and add that to your skill repertoire. I want to thank you for being Yeah. Well, there is always that right, too many emergencies to manage. Well, Chris, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening and being with us today. I hope that this has been helpful and interesting and educational. I found it so I'd love to hear your thoughts, and I'm sure Chris would as well. Chris, how can people maybe reach out to you if they'd like to do. So,   Chris Miller ** 1:03:42 yeah, sure. LinkedIn is a good way to find me, and I've given you all those details. So   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:49 go ahead and say your LinkedIn name anyway.   Chris Miller ** 1:03:53 Good question. Yeah, it's before cross. This is my business   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:58 name before being the number four crisis. That's it.   Chris Miller ** 1:04:03 My LinkedIn name is,   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:08 says before   Chris Miller ** 1:04:09 process, yeah, and your email is going to be full process on LinkedIn.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:16 Chris Miller at before before crisis, and email is number four process. And in email, it's before, no, it's, it's Chris Miller, before crisis, again, isn't   Chris Miller ** 1:04:30 it? It's Chris at default process, Chris at before crisis.com.au,   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:35 yeah, okay, memorizing the   Chris Miller ** 1:04:41 reason why it's led to be number four crisis right is I like to see my clients before the crisis, right, and I know they'll be more motivated after the crisis.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:53 Well, I hope that you'll reach out to Chris and find her on LinkedIn, and all the information is in the show notes. She is right. But. Always like to get people to say it, if they can. I'd love to hear from you. Feel free to email me at Michael H I M, I C H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S i b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, w, w, w, dot Michael hingson, that's m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s o n.com/podcast, podcast singular that is, wherever you're listening or watching, please give us a five star rating. We really value your ratings and your reviews and input. We appreciate it, and for all of you and Chris you as well, if you know of anyone who ought to be a guest, or you think should be a guest on unstoppable mindset, we're always looking for more people to talk with and have conversations with, so please introduce us. We're always excited to get that kind of thing from you as well. So once again, Chris, I just want to thank you for being here. This has been fun today.   Chris Miller ** 1:05:54 Thank you, Michael. It was fun to meet   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:02 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. 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Kent Lewis grew up in the Seattle area. In college he studied business and marketing. After college he went to work for a PR agency but left to go into the digital marketing industry in 1996. Kent has formed several marketing agencies during his career. He is quite up front about challenges he faced along the way as well as what he learned from each issue he faced.   Kent's philosophy about community is quite interesting and well worth adopting. He believes very much in giving back to his community. Today his day job is serving as “Executive Director of NextNW, a non-profit trade association that unifies the Pacific Northwest advertising & marketing professionals interested in professional development, sharing best practices, and collaborative problem-solving”.   Kent gives us many relevant and timely business insights. I hope you agree that this conversation gives us some good business lessons we all can use.     About the Guest:   Kent Lewis, Executive Director, NextNW Lewis is currently Executive Director of NextNW, a non-profit trade association that unifies the Pacific Northwest advertising & marketing professionals interested in professional development, sharing best practices, and collaborative problem-solving. He is also Founder of pdxMindShare, Portland's premier career community, with over 12,000 LinkedIn Group members. With a background in integrated marketing, he left a public relations agency in 1996 to start his career in digital marketing. Since then, he's helped grow businesses by connecting his clients with their constituents online. In 2000, Lewis founded Anvil Media, Inc., a measurable marketing agency specializing in search engine and social media marketing. Under his leadership, Anvil has received recognition from Portland Business Journal and Inc. Magazine as a Fastest Growing and Most Philanthropic Company.  After selling his agency in March 2022, he became a CMO for the acquiring firm. Beyond co-founding SEMpdx, Lewis co-founded two agencies, emailROI (now Thesis) and Formic Media. As a long-time entrepreneur, he's advised or invested in a host of companies, including PacificWRO, Maury's Hive Tea and ToneTip. Lewis speaks regularly at industry events and has been published in books and publications including Business2Community, Portland Business Journal, and SmartBrief. For twenty years, he was an adjunct professor at Portland State University, and has been a volunteer instructor for SCORE Portland since 2015. Lewis tours nationwide, averaging 30 speaking engagements annually, including a regular presenter role with the Digital Summit conference series. Active in his community, Lewis has been involved in non-profit charity and professional trade organizations including early literacy program SMART Reading and The Entrepreneurs' Organization (EO).  Industry recognition and awards include Portland Business Journal's Top 40 Under 40 Award, American Marketing Association Oregon Chapter Marketer of the Year, and Top 100 Digital Marketing Influencers by BuzzSumo.   Ways to connect with Kent:   Links https://kentjlewis.com/   And LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kentlewis/     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today. We get to chat with an award winning entrepreneur, and he just told me a really interesting factoid. We'll have to, we'll have to talk about it, just because it is about one of the most fascinating things I've heard in quite a while, and a very positive thing. But I'm not going to give it away, because I'm going away, because I'm going to let him talk about it, or at least start the discussion. I'd like you all to meet Kent Lewis. Kent has been an entrepreneur for a while. He helps other entrepreneurs. He works in the non profit arena and does a variety of different kinds of things. And rather than me telling you all about it, you could read the bio, but more important, meet Kent Lewis and Kent, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Kent Lewis ** 02:05 It's, it's a pleasure to be on the show. Thank you for having me, sir.   Michael Hingson ** 02:10 Now where are you located? I'm based in Portland, Oregon, yeah. So you're, you are up up the coast, since I'm in Southern California. So yes, you know, one of these days I'll be up that way again. Well, Alaska Airlines will fly me up there.   Kent Lewis ** 02:27 Yeah, totally right. Yeah, good   Michael Hingson ** 02:29 to have you, unless you come this way first. But anyway, well, I'm really want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. And why don't we start? I love to do this. Tell me a little bit about kind of the early Kent growing up and all that stuff.   Kent Lewis ** 02:44 Yeah, so I grew up in Seattle, Washington. I think something that's influenced me is that my dad was is, or is, a retired architect. And so there was always this design esthetic, and he was an art collector enthusiast, I should say. And so I was always surrounded with art and mid century, you know, furniture and there's just style was a it was a thing. And then my mom was always in when she was a social worker and went into running nonprofits. And so I grew up around that as well of just giving back. So if you ever heard that common term, you know, learn, earn, return. Start your life you're learning, then you're maximizing your earnings during your career, and then when you in and around later in life, you start giving back, right, returning, right. And I learned from my mom that you never stop you never stop learning. You never stop returning. And my my mantra as an entrepreneur is never stop earning right? So, so I've always been giving back and donating my time, and I've always appreciated sort of good design and well thought out things. And I think that's influenced my career in marketing and as an entrepreneur, business owner, and now more of an advisor, Coach type,   Michael Hingson ** 03:59 well, so growing up in Seattle, did you visit pikes market very often?   Kent Lewis ** 04:04 My dad used to work right, right, like, two blocks away. So I would go there all the time. In fact, I remember when there was just one Starbucks when I was a kid, yeah, at Pike Place Market, and they used to sell large chunks of delicious, bitter sweet chocolate, I know, you know, in the behind the counter, and it was a very hi and you could smell the teas and all that. It was a very different experience, very cool place. And so, yeah, love   Michael Hingson ** 04:33 the pipe waste market. I understand that they don't throw the fish anymore. No, they do. They do. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Maybe it was just during the pandemic that they decided not to do that, but   Kent Lewis ** 04:44 think you're right about that. But they definitely, they, they're still, it's still a major attraction. It's too big of a thing to stop.   Michael Hingson ** 04:51 Wow, that's what I was thinking. And that's just way too big of a thing to to stop. My probably not the greatest fish fish catcher, I've been there, but I. I never caught a fish.   Kent Lewis ** 05:02 Yeah, that's only got, like, one or two in my life. And I don't, I don't do it much, but   Michael Hingson ** 05:08 Well, well, that's the place to go anyway. So where did you go to college?   Kent Lewis ** 05:13 I went to Western Washington University in Bellingham, uh, just 1020 minutes from the Canadian border, because, in part, when I was in school, it was a 19 year old drinking age in Canada, so I was 20 minutes away from my earlier drinking age. Turns out, I grew up going to Vancouver, BC quite often for the soccer exchange program when I was a real young youngster. So I fell in love with Vancouver, and as I've had been fortunate enough to travel the world a bit, I realized that it was one of my favorite cities, and it still is. It is such a global, amazing egalitarian, like, no matter your color, race, creed, you could be a millionaire or you could be a bus driver. There was no not the same class, classism you see in other US cities or around the rest of the world. It's truly an amazing and it's also, of course, beautiful   Michael Hingson ** 06:04 there. I found that true throughout Canada, and I've enjoyed every Canadian city I've ever been to. One of my favorites is really going to Toronto. I was always impressed as to how clean it really was.   Kent Lewis ** 06:17 You know, that's true. I've been there a couple times in conferences, and I found it to be clean and impressive, you know, and then, but my, one of my favorite, other cities I only spent overnight, there was Montreal. What a beautiful, beautiful place, absolutely stunning. I   Michael Hingson ** 06:35 spent two days in Montreal once when I was selling some products and turn the TV on at 1131 morning that I was there and watched the Flintstones in French. That was unique. That was unique. Cool. How cool is that? Yeah, it's awesome. That was kind of fun. But, you know, so you, you went to college. What did you major in?   Kent Lewis ** 06:58 I majored in business with a marketing concentration, which is great because I ended up doing marketing for a career, and for 22 years ran my own agency, or my own business, basically.   Michael Hingson ** 07:10 So what did you do when you got out of college?   Kent Lewis ** 07:14 I went immediately into the world of public relations agency life. I always wanted to be a found out after college that I, what I really wanted to be was a copywriter, you know, writing ads. I just coolest thing as a kid. I just didn't know that. It's, I didn't realize what it, what it you have to go to Ad School. You can't, you can't graduate regular college and become a copier. At least you weren't able to when I was, you know, back in the mid 90s. So I started in PR because it sounded hard to pitch the media and try and get them to say what you want them to say about your brand, your client and your brand. And that did me well, because when I got in from went from PR in 94 to digital marketing, SEO, search engine optimization 96 my PR background was extremely helpful. You know, in in that, in that whole world. So because doing PR builds Domain Authority, which builds your rankings in Google, and the rest is history. So, so it was very helpful. It gave me a bit of an edge. And then my business background meant I was better equipped to to go from doing the work to managing people, they're doing the work, to doing my own thing, you know, and running a instant running team, I was running a business. So that was super cool. You   Michael Hingson ** 08:38 know, it's interesting. I've especially because of the World Trade Center, but not only, but before it as well, I learned a lot about dealing with the press. And I've, I've watched a lot of press interviews today, and it's, it's amazing how often and then people have said that this is the way you should do it. No matter what the press person asks you, you answer with the with the answer you really want to give, whether you answer their questions or not. And I think that's an interesting approach, and I suppose it can be positive, but especially for for politicians who don't want to answer the tough questions. But I I know that for me, I've always tried to structure my answers in such a way that it gets them to take the question that they originally asked that I might sort of answer and reframe it so that I will answer a lot of times that, for example, talking about blindness and blind people, there are just so many misconceptions about it and and all too often, like first time I was on Larry King lives, Larry was asking questions about guide dogs. And he said, Now, where did you get your guide dog? And I said, from San Rafael, California. He said, well, but the but the main. School is a new is in Michigan, right? And I said, No, it's a different organization. And what we learned after doing that interview was that the way to deal with Larry was to program him and send him questions in advance with answers. Then he did a lot better, because the reality is, he didn't really know necessarily the answers in the first place. It's just amazing how you know how a lot of times it's just shallower. The Press tends to over dramatize. But I appreciate what you're saying about marketing and PR, I've done so much of that over my lifetime, and for so many reasons, in so many ways, I know exactly what you're talking about.   Kent Lewis ** 10:47 Yeah, yeah. That's, yeah, it's, it's a fascinating world that I've, that I've, you know, been live, living and working in. And I, yeah, I'm impressed, yeah, Larry King Live. That's pretty cool. And, you know, hopefully you've helped people just side note, you know, get a clear understanding of what it is, what it is both like to be blind and then how you navigate this world successfully, as if you're, you know, fully sighted. You know,   Michael Hingson ** 11:18 well, one of the things that I actually learned over the last couple of years is something that I've actually written an article and had it published about, and that is that we've got to change our view of disabilities in general. People always say, well, disability is a lack of ability. And I say, and I always say, No, it's not. And they say, Well, yes, it is. It begins with dis. And I said, then, how do you equate that with disciple, discern and discrete? For example, you know they begin with D is the reality is, disability is not a lack of ability. You think it is. But I've added to that now when I point out that, in reality, every person on the planet has a disability, but for most people, their disability is covered up. Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb, or at least we give him credit for it back in 1878 so for the last 147 years, all we've done is spent so much time improving on the technology that provides light on demand, which just covers up your disability, but it's still there. And I realized that one day I was at a hotel in Los Angeles at three in the afternoon when we had a power failure, and everybody started to scream, even down in the lobby, when they had all these nice big windows that were letting in all sorts of light, but it wasn't giving them the light that they wanted and the amount that they wanted, and people panicked. So I realized then, oh, well, now the reality is they're light dependent, which is as much a disability as my light independence is. It's just that it manifests itself differently, and there are a whole lot more light dependent people than light independent people. But we've got to really change our definition and how we view it. So   Kent Lewis ** 12:58 that's really insightful. It's good to think about.   Michael Hingson ** 13:01 Yeah, it's kind of fun. But, you know, so, so where did you, where did you go off and go to work in the in the marketing world? So you did? You didn't go to Copyright School? Or did you? No, no,   Kent Lewis ** 13:13 I just know. I once I talked to the creative director at this agency in Seattle where I did my first internship. He's like, Yeah, you'd have to go back to art school. And I was like, what school I just finished? So, you know, it didn't really matter. And we So, with that said, we, you know, I moved into PR, and then I moved to down to Portland from Seattle, because I could actually get a paying job because the internship I did three months full time, virtually, basically no pay, I found a low paying job instead in Portland. So I moved I only knew one person here in Portland, my cousin. She's still here. We both have families now, and I know a lot more people, but I basically have, since moving here to do my second agency job. I've been, I've been a part of 10 agencies in my career. I've been, I founded two, co founded two, fired from three and exited the four that I created, or co, co founded, basically. And so right now I have a consultancy. I could say that's my 11th agency, but I don't even really count it as an agency. I'm just a fractional CMO, you know, marketing advisor at this point, just a few hours a month, because my my day job as of January, is running a nonprofit called next northwest.org which is a it's a trade organization for marketing and advertising and creative community, the creative services world. And it has 119 year history in Portland. And now it's, it's now expanded to five states and into Canada. And so I've got this I'm working. I manage a board of, you know, decent sized board, and a decent sized advisory. Committee that I created, and just the last couple months, and we do learning events for the creative community and networking events and celebrations, like, you know, awards, award shows to celebrate the work. So that's kind of my day job. And then I also speak and write a lot you and I share a passion for for education and learning and sharing knowledge. And so I've been, I've probably averaged 25 speaking engagements a year for the last 20 years, and last year was 30. For instance, I fly yours, mentioned your your travel. I'm flying to Tampa on Sunday to present on Monday, on a panel about AI in the senior care space, for instance. And then I come back and I, I, you know, got it. I got one or two more. But I, you know, I typically do a dozen fly flying gigs, and then I do a lot of webinars and local gigs as well.   Michael Hingson ** 15:55 So what are you what are you going to say? What are you going to say about AI in the senior care space?   Kent Lewis ** 16:01 That's a great question. So what my focus as a marketer is, here's how you can use AI to streamline and automate and maintain or improve quality. So it's not meant to it's not a secret hack, cheat code to lay people off. It's a It's get more out of your current resources, basically, and do more with less, and do it more effectively. That's kind of, that's, you know, that's my, what I'll be talking about is the how you know how to use it for research, ideation, content creation, content editing, reporting, synthesizing information, customer service, that kind of thing. So I only have, you know, it's a panel event, so I'm only doing like a 10 to 15 minutes part, and then there are other presenters doing their part, and then we have a little Q and A, usually, I'm a sole presenter on whatever topic, usually digital marketing or employee engagement, which is what I got passionate about. Once I sold my agency. After 22 years, I became an employee at that the agency that acquired my company, and I was immediately underwhelmed and disappointed in what it was like to be an employee, and wanted to fix it. So that's what I had been focusing on when I given a choice. I want to evangelize. You know, what I learned from my experience, and I've done a good amount of research, and, you know, two weeks ago, I presented in Portland on the topic to entrepreneurs. Then the next day, I flew to Denver and did the same presentation to a group of agency owners. And then the next day, I did a webinar for similar group of entrepreneurs, you know, so three versions, three days in a row, a 3060, and 90 minute version. So,   Michael Hingson ** 17:42 pretty fun. Yeah. So how many books have you written?   Kent Lewis ** 17:47 Ah, I knew you'd say that so or ask that. I have not written any books, but I have, darn but I've written, you know, probably 200 articles. I could easily AI them into some sort of book, if I wanted to. You know, I went from writing 80% to 90% of my art content was on digital marketing for the first 20 years. And then the last 10 years, I focused almost exclusively on writing about entrepreneurship and and business ownership, leadership and employee intention, retention, engagement. And, you know, so I mostly syndicate my articles, like business journals, occasionally in Ink Magazine, etc. So if I were to write a book, it would be about the business side of things, instead of the second, I would write something about digital marketing. Not only am I no longer an expert, and consider myself an expert relative to others, those books are outdated the second they're printed, right? So, so it doesn't make sense to really write a book on digital marketing, and everything's already been said, etc. So, so if I wrote a book, it would be probably more on the employee engagement side versus anything. But I will say that I don't know if you know who Seth Godin is. He's the number one marketing blogger in the world. He's written many best sellers, Purple Cow, permission, marketing, etc. He's remarkable guy. And I had was fortunate to talk with him and then meet with him over lunch in New York City 15 years ago. And he said, after our two hour lunch, he charges $75,000 for speaking engagement. So it gives you a sense of who he is. He has for for 20 years. And so he said, Kent, you've got a book in you. I was like, I wish you hadn't said that, because now I don't want to, I don't want to disappoint him, right? So there you go.   Michael Hingson ** 19:31 Well, if you write one at some point, you have to send us a picture of the cover and we'll stick it in the show notes whenever. Yeah, that sounds great, but yeah, I you know, I never thought of writing a book, but in 2002 we went to the AKC Eukanuba canine championship dog show in Orlando. It was in December, and among other people I met there. Here I met George Berger, who was at that time, the publisher of the American Kennel Club Gazette, and he said, You ought to write a book. And I went, why? Well, because you you have a great story to tell. You should really write a book. Well, it took eight years and a lot of time sitting in front of Microsoft Word to get notes down, but eventually I met someone named Susie Flory who called because she was writing a book called Dog tails. And it was a story of what she wanted to write stories of, actually, 17 different dogs who had done some pretty interesting and miraculous things. And she wanted to write a story about my guide dog at the World Trade Center, Roselle. And she said, Tell me your story, if you would. And I did. And when we were done, there was this pause, and then she said, You need to write a book. And since I've written books, I'll help you. And a year later, underdog was published, and it became a number one New York Times bestseller. So that was pretty cool.   Kent Lewis ** 21:01 That's fantastic. Congratulations. Very impressive.   Michael Hingson ** 21:04 And then last year, well, in 2013 we published a children's book called running with Roselle, but more adults by a thing kids, because it's not a picture book, but it tells the story of me growing up and Roselle growing up, and how we met, and all that. So it isn't really as much a World Trade Center book. But then last year, we wrote, live like a guide dog. And the intent of live like a guide dog is to say to people, look fear is all around us, and so many people just allow themselves to be paralyzed, or, as I say, blinded by fear, so they can't make decisions. They don't learn how to control it. But if you learn how to control fear, you can use fear as a very powerful tool to help you stay focused, and you'll make better decisions. So we use lessons I learned from my guide dogs on my wife's service dog to write, live like a guide dog. And so it is out there, and it's it's a lot of fun, too. So you know, it isn't the easiest thing to write a book, but I would think you have a book in you, and you should, well, I   Kent Lewis ** 22:03 appreciate that vote of confidence. And hey, I mean, you did it, and you had an amazing story, and you've done it multiple times. Actually, it's great inspiration for me.   Michael Hingson ** 22:16 Well, I'm looking forward to reading it when it comes out. You'll have to let   22:20 us know. Yeah, will do so   Michael Hingson ** 22:23 you at some point, switched from being an employee to being an entrepreneur. How did that all happen? Why? Why did you do it? Or what really brought that about?   Kent Lewis ** 22:38 Well, I kept getting fired.   Michael Hingson ** 22:40 So why'd that happen?   Kent Lewis ** 22:42 Yeah, so that's the fun part. So I I've never been fired for cause like a legit clause. I'm a high powered, high performer, and so I actually, that's why. So the first time I was fired was by the guy that invited me to co found an agency. His name was Ryan Wilson. He was my he was my boss. And then he was fired by our larger agency. He ran a team that I worked on. I worked for him. I was inspired by him. I I was mentored by him. I thought the world of him. So when he came to me three months after he got fired, it was about, it's always about a girl. So he he basically, he got divorced. And so this other woman, they met at the office, and they were soul mates, and they he had to clean up his life. And he did, and he said, I've got an agency die. I've got two clients ready to sign. I need key employees, and you're one, one of them, then I would hope you would join me. I said, No, the first time he got his act together. I said, yes, the second time, and that. So I we built an agency together with, you know, we start with six people. I brought in two other people and another gal that ran the PR side. I was running the digital side. She brought in somebody said we had six of us on day one, and a year later, we didn't have a formal share shareholder agreement for our percentage of the company that went from being worth zero to being worth a few million dollars, and we felt that we should have something in writing, and before he could, we could get something formally in writing. My, my other partner, she, I didn't really want to do the business with her, but I didn't really have a choice. I want to do the business with him. She said, I'm asking for more equity. I said, Okay, I feel like that's fair. I think we've earned it, but, and I'll, I'll be there with you, but I wouldn't have done this if she hadn't said, I'm going in. Are you with me? So when I we asked, she asked me to make the ask. I wasn't necessarily prepared or thinking about it, and it really offended him. He was really mad, and he was playing to fire her, and by me teaming up with her, he felt, you know, slight. And he fired us both, and the next week, I started anvil, my agency, Anvil Media, that I ran for 22 years, I did a couple other starts, one with a college friend and a guy I had met at that that at one of the first, one of the earlier agency agencies I'd worked at. He and we, he and I and my college buddy started an email marketing agency in 02 and then I decided, well, this isn't for me, but I now learn it's not that scary to hire employees. So then I started hiring employees at anvil and late 03 and so I ran anvil with employees for, you know, 20 years. Two of those first two years were just me and some contractors and and then, oh, wait, I started a second agency because I needed a more affordable solution for my partners in small business called Formic media. Ran that for five years before I merged it with with anvil. But in between, I was also fired. When I first started anvil, I was it was just a hang of shingle in 2000 to do some consulting, but I wanted a full time gig, and a year later, I had an opportunity to run my my team from the agency. I was fired from that company. That agency was sold to another agency for pennies on the dollar. And when my old boss died, rest in peace, we hadn't really cleared the air yet, which is it still is one of my greatest regrets. You know, for nine months we didn't talk, and then he passed away. Everybody peace, not before he passed away, I was able to get, yeah, his his soul mate. They weren't married yet, but they were going to get married. She told me that two weeks before he died, he expressed regrets and how we had ended the relationship, how he had fired me, and he was looking forward to reconnecting and re engaging our friendship. And so that made that meant the world to me. I had a lot of peace in knowing that, but I so the first the second place I got fired was this agency again about a girl. So the first time was a girl telling me, you need to ask the boss for more money or more equity. And I did, and that offended him. And the second time was my girlfriend at the time, who's who moved over from that agency to the new agency where my my old boss died before he could really start there. She was dating on the side the Creative Director at that agency, and he'd been there over 20 years. And so when I started there, I saw something was up, and I was like, Is there anything going on? She's like, No. And so eventually I just broke up with her anyway, because I just it wasn't working, even if she wouldn't admit that she was having a side relationship. But I was eventually fired because he was a board, you know, he was on the board. He was, he wasn't my boss, per se, but he was one of the senior partners, and they just wanted me out. You know, she might have money. Wanted me out. He definitely wanted me out. So that was the second time I got fired. And then the third time I got fired was it kept the stakes get given, getting bigger. When I sold my agency 14 months later, they fired me, really, not to this day, not for any cause. It's that they asked me to take an 80% pay cut a year into my buyout, and I and then I they were going to close my Portland office, which I was, I own the building, so I didn't want to lose my own myself as a tenant, so I offered to reduce my rent 30% so I basically, for two and a half months, worked for free for this agency that had bought my agency. So they were making payments to me. I was carrying the note, but they they couldn't. A year later, they're like, I'm sorry. So they a year later, I took a pay cut for two and a half months, and when I asked them, you know, when am I getting back to my pay? They said, Well, you know, we can't guarantee. We don't have a path for you back to your full pay. And I was like, Okay, well, then I told my wife, let him inform them that we're going to go back to, we are going to go back to our full rack rate on our rent. And when I, when we notified them, they they totally, they totally fired me. So they canceled the lease, and they fired me, and so they so it. And you know, I, my team was slowly being dismantled, a 10 of us, 11 of us, I guess 10 or 11 us went over, and within a year, there were only two wait. Within two years, there was only one person left on my team. So it was a really sad, sad experience for me. It wasn't as hard to sell my business as I thought. It wasn't as hard, you know, just emotionally, it wasn't as hard to sunset my brand after 22 years. Wasn't easy, but it was way easier than I thought. What was hard for me was watching them was was closing the office. It broke my heart and and then watching them dismantle my team that I spent, you know, two decades building, most of that team was within 10 years, the last 10 years, last even five years of of our business. Us. There was a relatively new team, but we were so tight, and it was just heartbreaking. So, you know,   Michael Hingson ** 30:09 yeah, wow. So what do you think was your biggest mistake in running your own agency?   Kent Lewis ** 30:19 That's a great question. I think the biggest, biggest mistake was not understanding the Hire great people and get out of the way. Lee Iacocca, you know, to paraphrase him, I hired great people and I got out of their way. But what I didn't do was make sure they had all the proper training, alignment of core values that they had, there was enough trust between us that they could come to me with they were struggling or failing. Apparently, I was a fairly intimidating figure for my former my young recruits, but most of that time, up until the last five years, I always had a senior VP my right hand. I hired her with the attention that she might take over the business someday, she was totally creating a wall between me and my employees, and I didn't know it until 2012 and so, you know, I had 10 years to try to undo what she had created the first 10 years, basically of a fear based management style, so that that didn't help me, and I didn't believe it. I didn't really see it. So then I rebuilt the company, and from the ground up, I blew it up in 2013 so 10 years after of having employees, 13 years of having the business, I completely dismantled and blew it up and rebuilt it. And what did that look like? It started with me just not wanting to go to work in the building, and I realized I can't quit because I'm the owner, so I have to fix it. Okay? I don't mind fixing things. I prefer to fix other people's problems instead of my own, but I really a lot of people do, right? Yeah. So I wrote a credo, basically, what would it take for me? What are, what are it got down to 10 truths, what? What are the truths that I need to go into work and that others around me, co workers, team members, need to also agree on so that we can work together successfully. So it went from being about clients to being about the team and being about accountability. And you know, it was so it was so decisive. It was so radical for my current team that had been with me five to 10 years of they lose clients, I get more clients. And I eventually told them, I can't replace clients as fast as you're losing them. It's not a sustainable business model, so you need to be accountable for your actions and your decisions. That's the new anvil. You and you're out. I gave them 72 hours to think about it and sign it. Signed literally to these credo. It's not a legal document, it's just a commitment to credo. And half the team didn't sign it, and they quit. And then within 12 months, the rest of the team either quit or we've I fired them because they did not fit in the new anvil. And it's funny because everybody else that I brought in didn't even it didn't even register. The credo was so unremarkable to them, because we were already aligned by the time we hired them, we'd done our research and the work to know who fit, and so they didn't register. So eventually we just dropped the credo was no longer needed as a guide or a framework. It's still on the website, but, but you don't, you know it doesn't really matter. But that's what I got wrong, is I did not build the trust. I did not have I had processes in place, but but without the trust, people wouldn't tell me how they felt or that they were struggling. So a lot of process wasn't recognized or utilized properly. So I rebuilt it to where and rebuilt the trust to where the team that was with me when I sold I was very close with them. There was 100% trust across the board, a mutual respect, arguably a mutual love for the craft, for each other, for the company, for our clients, and it was a lot of fun to work with them. I didn't sell because I was unhappy. I sold because I was happy, and I thought now's a good time to go and find a good home. Plus my wife was my operations manager for five years, and she wanted out. Frankly, I thought it was easier to sell the business than try to replace my wife, because she was very good at what she did. She just didn't like doing it, yeah? And she also didn't like, you know, me being her boss. I never saw it that way. But once she explained it, after I sold, she explained, like, you know, you boss me around at work, and then you try to boss me around at home, and I'm not having it. You pick one? Yeah, so, so I was like, I think, like, I bossed you around. And she's like, Hey, you just, it was your company. It was always going to be your company. And, you know, that's fine, but you know, I want to move on. I was like, Okay, why don't we just sell and so that, yeah, they the operational people. And so it took her, took that load off of her. She's worked for. Nonprofit now, so she's happy, and so that's good.   Michael Hingson ** 35:05 Well, it also sounds like there were a lot of people that well, first of all, you changed your your view and your modus operandi a little bit over time, and that's why you also got you fired, or you lost people. But it also sounds like what you did was you brought in more people, not only who thought like you, but who really understood the kinds of goals that you were looking at. And so it was a natural sort of thing. You brought in people who really didn't worry about the credo, because they lived by it anyway.   Kent Lewis ** 35:38 Yeah, that's exactly right. And that was, that was my lesson. Was, you know, I always knew there's a concept called Top grading. You know, you thoroughly vet client, you hire slow and you fire fast. Most entrepreneurs or business owners hire fast and fire slow, and it's very, very expensive and but, you know, I got that part and I just better. I was far better at, I was far better at, what would I say, creating processes than kind of feeling, the love? And so once I figured that stuff out, it got a lot it got a lot better.   Michael Hingson ** 36:16 It's a growth thing. Yes,   36:18 exactly, yeah. Well, you   Michael Hingson ** 36:21 have something, and you sent me something about it. You call it Jerry Maguire moment. Tell me about that.   Kent Lewis ** 36:28 Yeah. So that's, you know, I just, I just sort of backed into the story of just being unhappy. But what ended up happening more specifically that Jerry Maguire moment was putting my son to bed in March of 2013 and I mentioned that feeling of not of dread. I didn't want to go to work. I was frustrated with my team, disappointed in my clients, not appreciating the work we were doing, frustrated with some of my partners. You know, in the business, I felt disconnected from the work of digital because I'd worked on the business for longer than I'd worked in the business by that point, and so I just, it was, it was, I was a bit of a mess. And I realized, like, I need a reason to get up and go to work in the morning. And that's when I came up. I was inspired by Jerry Maguire's manifesto from from the movie, and apparently you can find it online. It's a 28 page manifesto. So I ended up distilling into those 10 truths that we called the credo, and so what happening is just again to recap, it took me a like a couple days. I had instant clarity. I like I fell asleep like a rock. Once I realized I had a plan and I had a framework, I felt better about it, even though there was much work to do. So as I mentioned, you know, half the team quit within the first week, the other half bled out over the next year. That meant 100% employee turnover for two years in a row. As like as I upgraded my team, that was painful. I had to hire three people in order to keep one good one. You know, as I as I search, because we don't have formal degrees in the world of digital marketing, right? So it's hard to find the talent, and you want to hold on to the good ones when you get them. So it took a long time to get the team dialed. Meanwhile, my clients got tired of the turnover. As I was trying to figure it out, they started leaving in droves, and so in 2014 in March, a year later, exactly, I lost my five biggest clients in a 30 to 45 day period. So I lost, you know, 40, over 40% of my revenue vaporized, and I could not replace it fast enough. So I didn't take a salary for nine months. I asked two senior execs to take small pay cuts like 10% and as we hunkered down, and so I didn't have to lay off any good talent, and so I didn't, and we sprinted, we rebuilt, you know, the pipeline, and brought some new clients in. By the end of the year, I paid back my my two senior employees, their 10% that they pay cut. I paid them back, but I didn't take a salary for nine months of that year. It was the worst year I'd ever had, and the only time I ever had to take a pay cut or miss a paycheck myself. So that was the price I paid. The plus side is once I realized that the focus should be on the employees, which was what the credo was, I didn't realize at the time that it wasn't about my clients anymore. They were the life blood. They were the blood flow, right? But we have this organism that needed love, so we I breathe life back into it, one employee at a time until we had a higher functioning group. So it took me five or six years, and in 2019 so six years after I blew the business up, I had an offer on the table, had a sale agreement finalized, and we were less than a week away from funding, and I backed out of the deal because I felt, one, it wasn't a good cultural fit, and two, there was more work to do. It wasn't about increasing my valuation more. It was about finishing my journey of an employee first agency and. Three years later, I sold for one and a half x higher multiple, so an additional seven figures to to another agency based on a stronger profitability, even though the revenue is about the same, stronger, you know, profitability right better. Happy clients, stable clients. It was a lower risk acquisition for them and the so that was the high point. The low point was becoming an employee and wanting to be the best damn employee that agency had ever seen to being a very disappointed, disengaged, disheartened, disheartened employee. And I then I decided I started writing notes of everything, not to do that they were doing wrong. And I decided, once they let me go, I need to focus on this. I think I needed to help my other fellow entrepreneurs ways to avoid going through what I went through as an employee, because I had just been one, and most of my employ, my entrepreneur friends, haven't been an employee for over 10 years. You easily, quickly forget what it's like to be an employee, and I want to remind them and as other senior leaders, how important it is to put your employees first, otherwise you can never deliver on your brand promise no matter what it is, because they won't deliver to your standards. Because it's you know, they don't feel the same attachment to a business if they as if they're not owners, right?   Michael Hingson ** 41:22 But it sounds like you also, when you did sell, by that time, you had employees, one who had bought into the credo, into the philosophy, and two were satisfied. So it was a much better situation all the way around. Anyway,   Kent Lewis ** 41:38 exactly. It's right? And that's, that's the thing is, I realized it's not about throwing money at a problem. It's about throwing time and care at a problem. And the problem is that most employers, there is no loyalty employ to employees anymore, and therefore there's no employee loyalty to brands anymore, to their employers. And so I'm trying to unwind that. And it's not about pension plans, per se. It's not about bonuses, really at all. That's one of 120 items on my punch list of auditing and employee journey is, yeah, do you have a bonus program? Mine was basically spot bonuses, little spot bonuses for timely things, because the big cash bonuses blew up in my face. You know, i i the biggest bonus check I ever wrote. The next day he quit and created a competing agency. Now, he had planned that all along it, the bonus was only helped him do it faster, but I realized there was no appreciation for the bonuses. So stop doing that. So instead, I would bonus, reward the team with experiences rather than cash. And they the cash they got from a really, I paid over market, so that money was not an issue, and so that experiences were the memorable part and the fun part, and it helped motivate when we'd have a little contest with, you know, the wind being a dinner or whatever it was, something fun, right?   Michael Hingson ** 43:00 I was, earlier today, talking with someone who's going to be a guest on the podcast. He's in Germany, and we were talking about the fact that there's a major discussion in Germany right now about the concept of a four day work week, as opposed to a five day work week, and in the four day work week. Inevitably, companies that subscribe to the four day work week have higher productivity, happier employees, and some of those companies have a four day work week with a total of 36 hours and up through a four day work week with 40 hours, which is, of course, 10 hours a day. And what he said, I asked the question, did it make a difference as to whether it was 36 or 40 hours? What he said was mainly not, because it was really about having three days with family, and that that whole mental attitude is really it that we, we have forgotten, I think, in this country, about employee loyalty so much, and we just don't see anything like what we used to see.   Kent Lewis ** 44:09 100% you are correct,   Michael Hingson ** 44:13 and so it is. It is an issue that people really ought to deal with in some way. But you know now the new chancellor in Germany wants to go back to a five day work week, just completely ignoring all the statistics and what's shown. So the discussion is ongoing over there. I'll be interested to see how it goes.   Kent Lewis ** 44:36 Yeah, yeah, totally. I would be in Troy. Yeah. We know for whatever reason, for whatever reason that they've you know that well, I guess it kind of makes sense. But you know, you wouldn't think you could be more productive fewer days a week, but the research is showing that these people, that you know, that the like the Northern Europeans, are the, you know, Finnish and Scandinavians are like the half. People on the planet, despite not being in maybe the friendliest climate, you know, 12 months of the year because of a lot of how they value, you know, work life balance and all of that. And I think that's the thing, you know, we we came from an industrial age where unions got us the weekends off. You know, it's a very different we've come a long way, but there's still a lot more to go, so I, I will be interested to see what happens with the with that concept that four day work week.   Michael Hingson ** 45:26 Well, the other part about it is we had the pandemic, and one of the things that came out of the pandemic, at least, I think, in the minds of a lot of employees, was even working at home, and having to do that, you still got to spend more time with family and people value that. Now I don't know how over time that's going to work, because I know there's been a lot of advocating to go back to just everybody always being in the office, but it seems to me that the better environment would be a hybrid environment, where, if somebody can work at home and do at least as well as they do at the office. Why wouldn't you allow that?   Kent Lewis ** 46:04 Right? Yeah, I think it's that's the other thing is, I do believe hybrid work is the best solution. We were doing three three days, two days in the office, required, one day, optional flex. I ended up going in most days of the week before I, you know, even after we sold and we sell at the office, because I like, I'm a social being, and I really enjoyed the time at the office. And it was, it was, I designed the space, and it was, you know, as my place, and it was my home away from home, you know. So I feel like I've lost a little bit of my identity, losing that office. Yeah, so, but yeah, I do think that it makes sense to be able to do remote work, whatever, wherever people are most effective. But I do know there is a reality that companies are fully remote have a struggle to create cohesiveness and connectiveness across distributed teams. It's just it's just science, right? Psychology, but you can be very intentional to mitigate as much as you can the downside of remote and then play up as much as you can the benefits of remote people having their life and they see, on average, I heard that people valued their remote work about to worth about $6,000 on average, that there's a number that they've quantified.   Michael Hingson ** 47:21 Wow. Well, I know I've worked in offices, but I've also done a lot of work at home. So for example, I had a job back in the late 1970s and worked and lived in Massachusetts until 1981 and the company I worked for was being pursued by Xerox. And the the assumption was that Xerox was going to buy the company. So I was asked to relocate back out to California, where I had grown up, and help integrate the company into Xerox. And so I did. And so that was the first time I really worked mostly out of home and remotely from an office. And did that for two and a half, almost, well, a little over two and a half years. And my thanks for it was I was terminated because we had a recession and the big issue really was, though, that Xerox had bought the company and phased out all the people in sales because they didn't want the people. They just wanted the technology. And I've always believed that's a big mistake, because the tribal knowledge that people have is not something that you're going to get any other place. Totally, totally agree. But anyway, that occurred, and then I couldn't find a job, because the unemployment rate among employable blind people was so high, since people didn't believe blind people could work. So I ended up starting my own company selling computer aided design systems, CAD systems, to architects. Some of the early PC based CAD systems. Sold them to architects and engineers and so on. So I did have an office. We started, I started it with someone else, and had an office for four years, and then decided I had enough of owning my own company for a while, and went to work for someone else, and again, worked in an office and did that for seven years. Yeah, about seven years, and then I ended up in at the end of that, or the later part of that time, I was asked to relocate now back to the East Coast, because I was selling to Wall Street and New York and Wall Street firms really want, even though they might buy from resellers and so on, they want company, companies that make products to have them an office that they can deal with. So I ended up going back and mostly worked out of the office. But then, um. I left that company in 1997 and it was, it was a little bit different, because I was, I I had my own office, and I was the only person in it for a little while. We did have some engineers, but we all kind of worked in the office and sometimes at home. But for me, the real time of working at home happened in 2008 I was working at a nonprofit and also traveling and speaking, and the people who ran the nonprofit said, nobody's interested in September 11 anymore. And you know, you're you're not really adding any value to what we do, so we're going to phase out your job. Yeah, nobody was interested in September 11. And three years later, we had a number one New York Times bestseller, but anyway, your face yeah, so I ended up opening the Michael Hinkson Group Inc, and working out of home, and I've been doing that ever since. I enjoy working in an office. But I can work at home and I can, I can adapt. So my exposure to people and working not at home is when I travel and speak and get to go visit people and interact with them and so on. So it works out   Kent Lewis ** 51:05 that's, that's fantastic, congratulations. That's awesome.   Michael Hingson ** 51:10 It is, it is, you know, sometimes a challenge, but it works. So for you, what is your philosophy? You obviously do a lot of giving back to the community nowadays, is that something that has kind of grown over time, or you always had that? Or what's your philosophy regarding that?   Kent Lewis ** 51:29 So I I believe that, as I mentioned, I believe earlier that learn and return us. I believe that you should giving, giving back your entire life, as soon as you're able to, in whatever way. And so I, you know, when I first moved to Portland, I barely knew anybody. I was volunteering at this local neighborhood house where it was, you know, as tutoring this kid, and ironically, in math. And I'm terrible at math. Then I went to Big Brothers, Big Sisters for a while, and then I for the last 19 for last 25 years, I've been a volunteer, and for eight or nine of those years, I was on the board of smart reading. It's a, it's a, it's not a literacy program in that you're not teaching kids to read. You're teaching kids a love of reading. So you just sit with, you know, title, title, one school kindergarteners in an area near you, and you sit and read with them for 10 to 15 minutes, that's it. And it's a game changer, because some of them didn't own any books. And then they get to take books home with them, you know, like scholastic style books. So anyway, I I decided, of all, like I have friends, that their their passion is pets, others, it's like forests or planet or whatever. To me, I think I can, I can solve all of those problems if I invest in children, because they're shaping our future, and we can put them on a trajectory. So for instance, statistically, prison capacity is based on third grade reading levels in blue. So if you're if you can't learn to read, you can't read to learn, so you need to have a be a proficient reader by third grade, or you're left behind, and you're more likely, 10 times more likely, to be in the system, and you know, not in a good way. So I realized, well, if I can help these kids with a love of reading, I was, I was slow to learn reading myself. I realized that maybe we, you know that one kid that you find a love of reading, that finds books they love and is inspired by the books and continues to read and have a successful educational career, then that's that person may go on to solve cancer or world hunger or whatever it is. So that's kind of how I look at so that's my theory in general about giving. And then specifically my passion is children. So that's kind of my thing, and I think there are a lot of different ways to do it. Last night, I was at my wife's auction or the fundraiser for her nonprofit, which is around the foster system. It's called Casa court, important court, court appointed special advocate. So these kids in the foster system have an advocate, that that's not a lawyer or a caseworker, you know, by their side through the legal system. And I think that's a fantastic cause. It aligns with my children cause. And I was, I had seven my parents fostered seven daughters, you know, Daughters of other people, and the last two were very that I remember were transformative for me as an only child, to have a sister, you know, foster sister that was living with us for, in one case, two years. And it was invaluable and helpful to me. She helped me find my love of reading, helped me learn my multiplication tables, all that things that your parents might be able to do, but it's so much cooler doing with somebody that's, you know, I think she was 17 when she moved into our house, and I was, like, nine, and she was so helpful to me, so inspiring. So in a nutshell, that's, that's what we're talking about   Michael Hingson ** 54:55 when you talk talk about reading. I'm of the opinion and one of the best. Things that ever happened to reading was Harry Potter. Just the number of people, number of kids who have enjoyed reading because they got to read the Harry Potter books. I think that JK Rowling has brought so many kids to reading. It's incredible.   Kent Lewis ** 55:14 Yeah, yeah. 100% 100% I Yeah. I think that even you may, you know, you may or may not like rolling, but I as a person, but she did an amazing thing and made reading fun, and that that's what matters, yeah, you know,   Michael Hingson ** 55:33 yeah, well, and that's it, and then she's just done so much for for children and adults. For that matter, I talked to many adults who've read the books, and I've read all the books. I've read them several times, actually, yeah, now I'm spoiled. I read the audio versions read by Jim Dale, and one of my favorite stories about him was that he was in New York and was going to be reading a part of the latest Harry Potter book on September 11, 2001 in front of scholastic when, of course, everything happened. So he didn't do it that day, but he was in New York. What a you know, what a time to be there. That's fantastic. But, you know, things happen. So you one of the things that I've got to believe, and I think that you've made abundantly clear, is that the kind of work you do, the PR, the marketing, and all of that kind of interaction is a very time consuming, demanding job. How do you deal with work and family and make all of that function and work? Well,   Kent Lewis ** 56:41 good question. I, I believe that that the, well, two things you have to have, you know, discipline, right? And so what I've done is really focused on managing my time very, very carefully, and so I have now keep in mind my oldest, I have three kids, one's graduating college as a senior, one's a sophomore who will be a junior next next year, and then The last is a sophomore in high school, so I'm there at ages where two are out of the house, so that's a little easier to manage, right? So there's that, but similarly, I try to maximize my time with my youngest and and with my wife, you know, I built in, you know, it was building in date nights, because it's easy to get into a rut where you don't want to leave the house or don't want to do whatever. And I found that it's really been good for our relationship at least once a month. And so far, it's been more like almost twice a month, which has been huge and awesome. But I've just intentional with my time, and I make sure 360 I take care of myself, which is typically working out between an hour and an hour and a half a day that I'm I really need to work on my diet, because I love burgers and bourbon and that's in moderation, perhaps sustainable, but I need to eat more veggies and less, you know, less garbage. But I also have been at the gym. I go in the Steam Room and the sauna, and I'm fortunate to have a hot tub, so I try to relax my body is after my workouts, I've been sleeping more since covid, so I work out more and sleep and sleep more post covid. And because I'm working from home, it's really I find it much easier to get up and take breaks or to, you know, just to manage my time. I'm not traveling like I used to, right? That's a, that's a big factor. So, so anyway, that's, that's kind of my take on that. I don't know if that really helps, but that's, that's kind of where I'm at.   Michael Hingson ** 58:59 The other part about it, though, is also to have the discipline to be able to be at home and work when you know you have to work, and yeah, you get to take more breaks and so on, but still developing the discipline to work and also to take that time is extremely important. I think a lot of people haven't figured out how to do that   Kent Lewis ** 59:19 right exactly, and that is so I do have an immense amount of, I do have an immense amount of, what would you say discipline? And so I don't know, yeah, I don't have that problem with getting the work done. In fact, my discipline is knowing when to stop, because I get into it, and I want to get things done, and I want to get it off my plate, so I tend to do sprints. But the other lesson I have from covid is listening to your biorhythms. So, you know, we're a time based society, and we look, you don't want to be late for this and that I you know, that's great, fine. But what's really more important in my mind is, um. Is to, is to be thinking about, is to let your body tell you when it's tired, if and and more importantly, is to not stress about in the mornings when I wake up early. By that, I mean between four and 6am before I really want to get up at 630 and I just if I'm awake, then I'll write stuff down to get it out of my head, or I will just start doing my start my day early and and not stress about, oh, I didn't get enough sleep. My body will catch up, yeah, it will tell me to go to bed early, or I'll sleep better the next day, or whatever it is. So that was important, and also to learn that I'm most I can get a lot of tasks done in the morning. And I think bigger picture, and that's what, that's why I wake up early, is all the things I need to do that I forgot. I didn't write down or whatever, and I think of them at between four and 6am but the other is that I do my best writing in the afternoon, like between four and six. So I told my, my wife and my, you know, my my kids, you know, my first figures out when they were both in the House. I was like, I may be working late, jamming out an article or doing whatever right before dinner, or I might be a little late. Can we can wait for dinner for a little bit? They're like, Yeah, that's fine. We don't care, right? So, but normally I'd be like, I gotta get home because it's dinner time. But now that I'm already home, I just keep working through, and then, and then, oh, I can take a quick break. But my point is, they're totally adaptable.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:27 But you communicate, yes, communication issue is key. Is key, absolutely. That's really the issues that you do communicate.   Kent Lewis ** 1:01:36 It's all about setting expectations. And they had no expectations other than eating dinner. And we've been eating dinner later. Just, just a natural evolution. So it's not, it's not even an issue now, because I don't want to, I don't want to, what, right? What? Late at night, I just found it late afternoon, I just in a zone. Anyway, yeah, you listen to your body, and I'm way less stressed because I'm not worried about, oh my god, I have to get to bed at a certain time or wake up at a certain time. It's like, just kind of run with it, you know, and and go from there. So what's next for you? What's next? So I want to shift from going from speaking for free to speaking for a fee. There you go. And the re the reason why is I never asked for, and I'd even waive, you know, honorarium or pay because I got more value out of the leads. But now that I don't have an agency to represent, two things. One is, I want to get paid to do my employee engagement retention talks, because it's I'm getting great feedback on it, which is fun. But I also am being paid now by other agencies, a day rate, plus travel to go speak at the conferences. I've always spoken on that like me and want me and I just represent. I just changed the name that I'm representing. That's it, you know,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:56 well, and there's value in it. I realized some time ago, and I k

In episode 143 of White Canes Connect, hosts Lisa Bryant and David Goldstein welcome back Karthik Kannan, co-founder and CTO of Envision, for an exciting update on accessible technology. Karthik last joined the podcast four years ago to discuss Envision Glasses, then partnered with Google. Today, he returns to introduce the brand-new Ally Solos, a next-generation wearable that pushes accessibility to new heights. Karthik explains how Ally Solos builds upon the original concept of AI-powered glasses by combining sleek design, advanced performance, and affordability. Unlike many mainstream devices adapted after the fact, Ally Solos was created specifically for blind and low vision users, with features designed to improve independence and everyday life. From real-time text recognition and object description to seamless integration with a smartphone, Karthik highlights how the device's enhanced speed, voice output, and intuitive interface make it truly empowering. The conversation also touches on the importance of community feedback in shaping Envision's innovations, ensuring that products meet the real needs of blind users. With its accessible price point and thoughtful design, Ally Solos represents a major step forward in inclusive technology. Listen to discover how Envision continues to transform possibilities for the blind community. Preorder your Ally Solos at https://www.ally.me/glasses/.  Show notes at https://www.whitecanesconnect.com/143     NFB of PA State Convention Registration is Open Registration is now open for the 2025 NFB of PA State Convention in Harrisburg from November 13 to November 16 at the Best Western Premier! Learn more at https://www.nfbofpa.org/state-convention/. Go directly to the registration form at https://www.nfbofpa.org/register/. An Easy Way to Help the NFB of PA Support the NFB of PA with every purchase at White Cane Coffee Company by going to https://www.whitecanecoffee.com/ref/nfbp. When you use that link to purchase from White Cane Coffee, the NFB of PA earns a 10% commission! Share the link with your family and friends! Listen to Erin and Bob Willman from White Cane Coffee on episode 072 of White Canes Connect. Donate to the NFB of PA Like what you hear on White Canes Connect? Support us and donate to the National Federation of the Blind of Pennsylvania, visit https://www.NFBofPA.org/give/. We Want to Hear Your Story Reach out with questions and comments, or share ideas! We want to hear from you. Call us at (267) 338-4495 or at whitecanesconnect@gmail.com. Follow White Canes Connect Find out why White Canes Connect is currently ranked at #13 of the 100 Best Visually Impaired Podcast. Find the show on: Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/white-canes-connect/id1592248709  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1YDQSJqpoteGb1UMPwRSuI  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@pablindpodcast  Visit our website at https://www.whitecanesconnect.com/.

Did you know that there is a whole industry around the concept of helping deserving people and organizations to receive recognition through winning awards? In this episode we meet and get to know one of the foremost experts in this industry, Donna O'Toole. Donna grew up in the South of England in a real castle. At the age of 16 her family conditions changed, and she had to go to a home with four other girls who also lost their family arrangements. Donna had to go to work although she had wanted to go to university. Eventually she did get to earn her degree.   Donna studied linguistics and found ways to use her growing knowledge of the field. Eventually she discovered the value of recognition and how helping people and companies gain recognition made them better for the experience. She began working to help people and companies earn awards. She will tell us about this fascinating subject and why earning awards is important. She gives us statistics about how after working to win awards and the subsequent recognition sales and overall exposure usually grows.     About the Guest:   Donna O'Toole is an award-winning entrepreneur, international awards judge, and bestselling author of WIN! – the ultimate guide to winning awards. She's also the founder of August Recognition, a global leader in awards strategy and part of the Dent Global group, helping purpose-driven entrepreneurs stand out, scale up, and make a meaningful impact.   Named one of the Top 25 Customer Experience Influencers in the world, Donna has transformed the visibility and credibility of hundreds of businesses - from start-ups to FTSE 100 giants - by helping them win the recognition they deserve. Her clients span global brands, high-growth entrepreneurs, and inspirational leaders across every industry.   Donna is renowned for her outstanding success rate in the most prestigious awards in the world, including The King's Awards for Enterprise. She's passionate about the true value of awards - not just the trophy, but the trust, authority, and growth they generate.   Now, Donna is taking her mission even further. Together with her business partner and Dent Global co-founder Daniel Priestley, she's launching a pioneering new AI venture that's transforming the awards industry - making it safer, simpler, and smarter than ever for people to find, enter, and achieve the awards and recognition that matters.   Ways to connect with Donna:   https://www.augustawards.com/ - to get a free copy of my book: Win! and to get a Free awards list LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donnaotoole/ Instagram: @donnaot     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:17 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I am your host, Michael Hingson, and I think we'll have some fun today. We get to talk to Donna O'Toole, who is over in England, and she has a very interesting story to tell and a profession that she works at regarding awards. We'll get to all that in a bit. I don't want to give it all away, because it's more fun to listen to Donna tell it than it is to listen to me tell it. No one has ever said that I'm boring, but nevertheless, I always think that the people who come on the podcast are much more fun and interesting than I so I can't I can't argue with that, and of course, that's my job to make sure that happens. But anyway, here we are once again with unstoppable mindset. And Donna, I want to welcome you and thank you for being here.   Donna O'Toole ** 02:09 Thank you. It's great to be here with you. Michael, thank you.   Michael Hingson ** 02:13 And it's what about 930 in the evening? Or no, it's up 737   **Donna O'Toole ** 02:17 Well, it's   Michael Hingson ** 02:19 after dinner. Yeah. Well, thank you for being here. And we're, we're really glad to have the opportunity to do this. And so I'd like to start, it's so fun to always start this way. Tell us sort of about the early Donna growing up and all that. Ah, okay.   Donna O'Toole ** 02:35 Um, okay. So, well, I don't tell very many people this actually so secret. One for you, Michael, I actually grew up in a castle, which makes me sound like I lived in a fairy tale, but I didn't. It was definitely not a fairy tale, and I'm not a princess, so I'm sorry to disappoint anybody.   Michael Hingson ** 02:54 Well, what was it like growing up at a castle?   Donna O'Toole ** 02:59 It was, you know what? It's one of those things that when you're an adult, and you look back, you realize how amazing you were, it was, and how lucky you were. But when you're a child, it's just all, you know, isn't it? So, yeah, we were very lucky. I grew up in a town called Arundel, which is in the south of the UK. It's a very historic town, and the reason that I lived there was because my stepdad was the head groundsman at the castle, so he looked after all of the grounds for the Duke of Norfolk. And yeah, it was a it was a wonderful place to live. We used to be naughty and run around and go hiding in nooks and crannies that we shouldn't be. However, I was permanently petrified that there was ghosts and bats and all sorts of things like that.   Michael Hingson ** 03:48 So were there ghosts?   Donna O'Toole ** 03:49 Yes, definitely, certainly, they were making noises like ghosts, and we couldn't identify what they were. So, yeah, there's a few stories around that castle. Actually around I think there's a ghost of a lady in one in the library, and there is a ghost of a Labrador, actually, that people talk about seeing there as well. So I'm sure they were friendly.   Michael Hingson ** 04:14 Did you ever see any ghosts?   Donna O'Toole ** 04:16 I think I convinced myself that I did. On many occasion, my bedroom window looked out over Arundel Cathedral, which is was lit up at night, which looks very spooky. I used to be terrified to look out of the window at night, in case I saw something I didn't want to see.   Michael Hingson ** 04:36 So was the castle drafty and cold in the winter?   Donna O'Toole ** 04:40 Yes, definitely very stone and cold. And we had a ray burn. It's called, it's like an auger type thing where you just, you sort of heat up the kitchen by heating up this oven thing. Yeah, I remember putting wood in it. I remember that,   Michael Hingson ** 04:56 wow. Well, that was kind of fun. So how long did you. Live in the castle.   Donna O'Toole ** 05:00 So I lived in the castle until I was 16, and then her life took a bit of an unexpected turn at that point, and we had a difficult family breakdown that resulted in myself being actually taken into care for a while, so I didn't get to I did. I did finish school and finished my GCSEs exams as they were, but it did mean that I didn't get to continue on my education at that point, as I needed to earn some money and learn how to look after myself. So at 16, I was living in a home with four other girls who were in similar situations to me, which is girls who's through no fault of their own, their families couldn't look after them anymore. And we learned to, you know, live and survive and get through life together. And it was a great adventure. There was ups and downs, for sure, but actually at that point, I needed to get some work, and I also wanted to continue studying, so I ended up becoming an apprentice dental nurse, and that is where I started. And I never expected to go there. Wow.   Michael Hingson ** 06:24 I guess, I guess it is an adventure, though. Yeah,   Donna O'Toole ** 06:27 Life is an adventure, and you've got to be ready for whatever it throws at you. That's what I say. And   Michael Hingson ** 06:31 I think that's a good way to put it. I think that life's an adventure, and I think that we can choose how to look at life no matter what happens, and either we can think things are positive and grow with whatever occurs or not. Yeah, 100% 100% and   Donna O'Toole ** 06:46 actually, if it wasn't for that part of my life, I don't think I would be here today, doing what I'm doing now. So it's, it's incredible how you can't predict where life's going to take you, but you do go on a journey. So I actually became a dental nurse. And then I got bit bored of that, and my brain was always active, trying to think of something new to do. And I spotted a gap in the market for at the time dentists had there was just this legislation that changed that meant that dentists always had to have a nurse or a chaperone in the surgery with them, whereas before they hadn't had to have that. And so what was happening was you had all these small dental practices whereby the the dentist couldn't work if their nurse was on holiday or off sick or on maternity leave or something. So I spotted this gap in the market to be to start a dental nurse agency to fill those gaps, if you pardon the pun, and and to actually go all over Sussex and support the practices that needed help. So that was at the age of 19, I started my first business, and yeah, it was a great   Michael Hingson ** 08:00 success. I was just going to ask how successful it was.   Donna O'Toole ** 08:03 Yeah, it was great, and I really enjoyed it. And I got to know so many people. I trained nurses, which I really enjoyed as well. So I developed myself whilst I was developing them, which was great and and then after that, I I stopped that business and handed it over to some good friends who were brilliant nurses to have my children and to take a little break while I have my two daughters.   Michael Hingson ** 08:27 Now, did you ever get to university or college?   Donna O'Toole ** 08:31 Yeah, so then had my girls, and still I've got a very busy brain that needs a lot of occupying. So I thought, right, what can I do now? I've got two children under the age of four or five. I know I must need something else to do, so I decided to go back, finally, to university, and I studied linguistics, so English language linguistics at the University of Sussex in in the UK. And interestingly, it's incredible, because during that part of my life, I absolutely loved every part of it. I was really passionate about English, and as a child, I'd wanted to be an English teacher, but because my life had gone on a different path, it wasn't something that I'd been able to do. But actually, during that time, I studied large language models and computer mediated communication. And it just absolutely blows my mind that through making that decision and then further decisions later down the road, I'm actually now launching a company that is AI based that is containing large language models. So it's really, like, amazing how you can connect the dots in your in your journey.   Michael Hingson ** 09:45 And of course, you're calling it Donna GPT, right? I had to. I   Donna O'Toole ** 09:51 love it. I'm Michael. I am definitely calling it that now.   Michael Hingson ** 09:56 Well, that's, that is cool though.   Donna O'Toole ** 09:58 Yeah. So when I. Actually completed my degree. I came out of that and thought, right, well, I need to do some work now. And I started writing for businesses. I'm quite a business writer. I'm a real aura of people who can write fiction. I think that's incredible, yeah, but I'm definitely on the factual side. So I started business writing. Then I started, just by coincidence, started writing award entries for some businesses. I then started working with another awards agency, and I really saw, then the power of how awards and recognition helped people to reach their potential in business and in life, and so that then took me on my next journey.   Michael Hingson ** 10:47 Well, awards are, are interesting. And of course, we hear about awards for all sorts of things, but tell me more about the power of awards and where they where they can fit into society.   Donna O'Toole ** 11:00 Yeah. So, so we work from I work with business awards, so generally speaking, so even back then, it was sort of working with entrepreneurs, or entrepreneurial businesses, or even big brands, whereby they wanted to recognize their achievement and they wanted to raise their profile, so they needed to raise brand awareness, perhaps around what they do, their services, their products, and what's always quite I find quite interesting about awards is people who've never been involved in awards tend to come into them with quite skepticism, which is understandable. It's not a regulated industry, so you do have to be a bit skeptical and do due diligence around what awards you're entering. But they come into them with skepticism about themselves and actually whether they have what it takes to win. And very often, what I found was they did have what it takes to win, they just didn't have know how to communicate it in a way that others could understand that they had what it took to win. So my job, as I see it, is to really support them, to communicate their story, their data, their evidence, everything that they're doing, and turn that into a proposition that demonstrates why they would be exceptional at what they do, or their team is exceptional, their brand is exceptional, so that They can stand out in awards.   Michael Hingson ** 12:21 So it's almost like you're helping to train potential award recipients to respect what the awards are and what they do. Yeah,   Donna O'Toole ** 12:31 it is always understanding what they're looking for, what the criteria is, and how they can stand out against it. But also, you know, most people who are involved in a business, whether you're running a business or whether you're a part of a team or you're a manager, we don't have the time to stop and look back and think, wow, what have we done over the last year? What have we achieved? What you know, what's really standing out about us? We just don't give ourselves that time. So recognition and awards is a really good opportunity to stop and look back and celebrate together the development journey that you've been on in your business and and motivate your team and the people around you to do even more because you're recognizing it   Michael Hingson ** 13:13 well. So how did you actually get involved in doing awards in the first place? What that's a pretty unique sort of thing to take on.   Donna O'Toole ** 13:23 Yeah. So it was kind of a journey from starting out in business writing and then moving through into doing a few award entries, and then that became more and more, and then I worked for another organization. And then in 2016 I decided the time was right to launch my own company and to start supporting more people with awards. I was, had already been involved with the industry, so I was very well supported by some great awards in the industry. And so yeah, I I started my new business, and that was called August recognition. And because I'm a linguist, I like words that have extra meanings. And August actually means in its second sense of the word, when you're not using it as the month actually means respected and admired. So in my mind, I had started an agency that enabled people to be respected and admired for what they did, and help them raise their profile that way. So   Michael Hingson ** 14:24 you don't really hear a lot about the industry of helping people get awards, but I gather it's probably a fairly substantial industry around the world.   Donna O'Toole ** 14:35 Yeah, it's 10 billion pound industry in the awards industry in itself. It's 2 billion just in the UK. So yeah, it's a big, big industry. There's so many events connected to awards. There's so many different processes. So yeah, and there's, if you imagine, every different industry there is in the world there's awards for it. I dare you to find an industry where there's not an award. Yeah. Even,   Michael Hingson ** 15:02 I'm sorry, even, even AI. And that's pretty even AI, yeah, yeah. And so when AI starts generating its own awards, then we can probably worry a little bit,   Donna O'Toole ** 15:13 yeah, we're eating ourselves, yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 15:17 But still, it's, it's a fascinating, well, topic and industry to talk about, because I'm sure there's a lot to it. Of course, like with anything, there's also a lot of politics and all that sort of stuff, but, but it must be a fascinating industry to to be a part of and to see when you help somebody get an award. How does all that work? Yeah, so   Donna O'Toole ** 15:42 usually, well, we work with businesses from the smallest business in the world right through to the biggest business in the world, literally. And what I really love about the whole process is you, you as a small business, you can use the same strategies, you can enter the same awards as the biggest businesses can and you can win. So what I really love is that you you don't have to be a certain size, you don't have to be a certain type of business. You just need to be having an impact in some way on something, and then be able to tell It and Prove It, essentially.   Michael Hingson ** 16:19 So how do you as a person in the industry make your money or earn your money as part of all of this? So   Donna O'Toole ** 16:26 we work with clients who are looking for recognition. So for example, a brand may come to us and say, you know, over the last couple of years, we've done some great learning and development projects. We've trained our teams, we've digitized our processes, we've done all of these great things. We'd love to recognize the people that have worked so hard and really, you know, give them the recognition that they deserve. So we will then look at their project, look at their business. You know, what kind of impact has that had on it might be internally. It might be that it's had a great impact for their customers. It might be it's had a great impact for the impact. For the employees. And then we'll look at all of the data around that, and we will create, we will research which are going to be the best awards to recognize them, which criteria they match, which categories they match, and then essentially, we'll support them to execute all of the work that needs to go together to go into the awards process. Someone's once said to me, did you ever think you'd be running a business where you're basically writing exams every single day? Yeah, it's a bit like that. Fortunately, I don't do the writing anymore so, but yeah, I kind of love it.   Michael Hingson ** 17:36 Yeah. Well, it seems like it would be sort of your your writing exams every day, or you're involved in helping to prepare people for the exams.   Donna O'Toole ** 17:45 Yeah, it's very analytical from looking at what's been achieved, but then it's all about communication and how you're going to deliver that to the awards process. And it's all about finding the right awards that are going to give them the right recognition, that's going to really have a return on investment for the motivation of the team, for the brand awareness, whatever it is that their goals are, that they're hoping to get to.   Michael Hingson ** 18:06 Well, so awards in general, it seems to me, create a lot of recognition. And you say that recognition has the power to make people unstoppable? Tell me a little bit more about them. What that means to you? Yeah,   Donna O'Toole ** 18:24 absolutely. Um, something I call awards imposter syndrome, which is where, you know, often, and this typically is with entrepreneurs and smaller businesses. They they'll come to us and say, you know, I'd really love to get some recognition of my brand, but I really, I think we we're doing enough, or don't know if we're worth it or we could really stand out. And actually, you know, what we want to do is make them unstoppable. We we want them to see where all the power is in what they're doing and how they can make a difference in the world. So we will go and discover all of that about their business, and then help them to communicate it in a way that even now they can see what they're doing is brilliant. And then through that recognition, there's a lot of research to show the amount of motivation that awards bring to people, even more so than even a pay rise, you know. So through that recognition, it makes them feel more able. I always say to people you know, don't think about business awards right now. Think about the awards that you won when you were a child. Think about when you were at school and you entered awards in the swimming competitions or dancing competitions. Someone want someone told me today they won a competition for the best recorder player. I said I thought, I thought we had to ban recorders. But you know, when you got that recognition as a child, we didn't think, Oh, my goodness, I'm you know, do I really deserve it? I'm so shy. Let's not tell anyone about this recognition. We loved it, and it enabled us to go on and do more. So we want to do okay, we won that swimming competition. Let's do another swimming competition. Let's really learn our craft and do more and more of what we do better and better. Her and I liked people to try and think of that feeling that they had then and bring that into now with their business. You know, don't be humble about what you're doing, because the more that you can shout about your success, the more that you can help other people to achieve success through what you're doing, and the more you've got a platform to shine a spotlight on something that you believe in and that you want to make a difference in the world about. So, you know it, I call that, I say to people, you know, if you're feeling like a bit of an imposter about awards, one of the best things you can do is to create what we call a who wins when you win campaign. And what that is, is sort of putting a stake in the ground and making a pledge to say, when we win this award, we are going to go and do this great thing, and it might be we're going to go and do a team beach clean together. We're going to mentor some people. We're going to celebrate as a team and go out for the day, or we're going to plant some trees. You know, it could be anything that means something to you, but it's a really good opportunity to seal that recognition with something that reminds you that you are worth it and really helps you get over that imposter syndrome and celebrate your achievement.   Michael Hingson ** 21:14 I assume you also run into the other side of that, which are the people who just think by definition, because they are, whoever they are, they must deserve awards, whether, yeah, must be a lot of that. Yes. So   Donna O'Toole ** 21:27 a while back, because I'm a linguist, I interrogate language all the time. I can't help it. And I would look at, I judge a lot of award entries all from around the world. Judge the leading competitions in many countries. And I would look at these award entries, and I could tell what the person was thinking when they're writing the entry, as they're coming as you're reading it. And I developed these 10 personas of different types of people that enter awards. And so we've got everything from the imposter to the ostrich who wants to hide their head in the sand to the bridesmaid who's always the always, never quite makes it to the podium. And one of those actually is the peacock. And the peacock is the one who thinks they're going to win everything, and does come across like that, but isn't great about taking the feedback when they don't win.   Michael Hingson ** 22:20 Yeah, that's really the issue, isn't it? Right? It's they don't take the feedback, and they don't change what they do and why they do it and how they do it, to be a little bit more humble in what they're all about.   Donna O'Toole ** 22:33 Absolutely, absolutely. We've also got an awards persona called the politician, and that's somebody who doesn't answer any of the questions, and all their numbers don't add up.   Michael Hingson ** 22:46 Now, I wonder what my cat would think about awards. I wonder dogs are humble, but I don't know that cats are necessarily,   Donna O'Toole ** 22:56 yeah, they've definitely got a bit more persona going on, haven't they? I don't   Michael Hingson ** 23:01 know if they necessarily would be interested in awards, because they tend not to want to stand up in front of public and do stuff. That's   Donna O'Toole ** 23:07 true, that's true. Yeah, they're kind of yeah, they're their own creature, aren't they? They are, aren't they? I don't think they think they need awards, actually,   Michael Hingson ** 23:15 yeah, that's right. They don't think they need awards. They think that everybody should just recognize them for who they are,   Donna O'Toole ** 23:20 I might have to add a new persona to my league now.   Michael Hingson ** 23:26 Well, you know, there's, there's value in that, but, but still, so you've, you've helped a lot of people with awards. I wonder if you have a story that you could share where they've received recognition and it just completely changed their lives and what they did and what they do. Oh,   Donna O'Toole ** 23:49 so many, so many of those. Yeah. So, I mean, let's think of an example. So a few years ago, I was working, actually, it was interesting. I was I was introduced by on email, just to a gentleman called Andrew, who I was introduced by the Department of Trade and Industry here in the UK, who said he's got a great story. He's got a great business. He's growing fast. We think he should win some awards. We should talk to you. And so I was like, great. Let's get on a call, Andrew. And every time we booked a call, he didn't turn up to the call. And I thought, oh goodness, you know, it's like three attempts at this call and it's just not happening. And I just emailed him and said, look, it looks like you. Maybe you're not interested in winning awards, so, you know, catch up with me if you ever get the chance. And he emailed me back, actually, this is in the introduction of my books. And he emailed me back, and he said, Donna, I'm so so sorry. I'm going through a really difficult time at the moment. His wife had cancer. His son was being bullied at school, and he was really struggling, and he'd started a business that would have grown very quickly, whilst also as a side hustle, while. Also doing the job, and he was quite overwhelmed. And I said, he said, you know, and he actually said, so if I can't even turn up for a call, how could I possibly win an award? So I said, Oh, my goodness, okay, let me, let's get together, and I'll let you know whether you can win an award or not. But this is a big award we're talking about, because he'd actually been recommended to enter what was the Queen's Awards for Enterprise. It's now the king's Awards, which is the biggest and most prestigious business award in the UK, if not in the world. And I said, let's, you know, you've been recommended for this. Let's, let's at least explore it. So I went over to his house. We had a coffee, I went through everything of his business, and I said, You know what I do? Think you've got what it takes, but I don't think you're in the right mindset to be able to manage so let us help you. So he agreed, we worked on that project, and a year later, because that's how long it takes, I was absolutely delighted. He won the Queen's awards for innovation, and it was game changing for him. And what I really loved about it was, it's a couple of things. So one is because he's a techie person, and he had launched it was a software product that he'd developed. He'd put the logo for the award on his website, and he measured the impact that that was making on his website, which is really useful for me to know, because often people don't do that. And he got came back to me in a couple of months later, and he said, in three months, his sales have gone up by 30% because of the impact of winning this award. And you know, when you're running a business and you're trying to run a family and you've got other things going on that are really important, you need your sales to go up without you having to work harder, because it gives you the free time. It gives you the ability to employ people to support you. It gives you then the time back with your family when they need you most. So I was absolutely delighted for him that it had an impact on him and his business that would enable him to actually have the time that he needed with his family and help them and support them. So that was something that was game changing in my mind, for, you know, for a really personal reason. And I was delighted he was happy to share that in in my book. Yeah, so that that was a lovely one.   Michael Hingson ** 27:14 So what is kind of the common thread? Or, how do you what is it you see in someone that makes them award winning, that that genuinely makes them award winning, as opposed to the politicians and peacock   Donna O'Toole ** 27:28 Okay, so what it is is they need to be making an impact in some way. And I think people tend to be quite fixated on on measuring or looking at their customer service, but I'm looking at their customer impact. So what their customer impact is that's something customer service is transactional, right? Customer impact is transformational. So what is it that you're doing that is making a difference or making life easier in some way for your customers? Or it is could be internal as well. So it could be your employees, for example, but generally it's impact. Now, with Andrew's story, the software that he developed, it was the first software that had the biggest ability to, I mean, I'm not a techie, so I'm probably describing this in the wrong way, the ability to display charts and graphs with the biggest amount of numbers. So we think, Okay, well, why is that important? Well, these are the graphs and the charts that are going into ECG machines in hospitals. These are going into universities to do research. You know? These are going into all sorts of things, stocks and shares. They're going into Formula One racing cars. There's so many, there's so much impact coming out from having designed that software that it's having an impact on us as humanity, and that's the kind of golden thread that you want in your award, is, what is the impact that you're having, and where can you show and prove that it's making a difference to someone, somehow, somewhere?   Michael Hingson ** 28:56 And I assume there are, we've talked about it, but I assume that there are a lot of people who are award winners who never, just never thought they would be, even though they're, they're perfectly capable and, oh yeah, they're deserving, but they, they don't, they're not doing it to seek the award. They're doing it to do what they want to do.   Donna O'Toole ** 29:18 Yeah, and they need, they need the recognition to shine that you know, 90% of businesses are small businesses now, and it's a very noisy world out there when you're trying to sell your products and services, you need to be able to do something that helps you to cut through and to get into customers minds and build trust. 85 Nielsen did a study 85% of customers now want to see credible awards on your website, on your products, before they will have the trust layer there to buy from you. What's really interesting is, years ago, we had, you remember when reviews came out? So Amazon was one of the first organizations to do reviews. I actually studied. Reviews and the mechanisms and language structures in them. And we all trusted reviews at the beginning, because, oh, great, you know, someone's going to tell us what their experience was of this thing, and we love it. And then as time went on and as the decades have progressed, we then learned not trust reviews, because it was like, Oh, hang on, they might be fake reviews, or, you know, that could be a competitor, putting a bad review on a competitor. So there's lots of reasons then not to trust reviews. So then we go, oh, well, what do we trust? Then we can't just trust what the business is telling us. We need something that's external, that's third party, and that's going to enable us to trust that brand. And then what we saw then is the pandemic happened, and we all went to shopping online. We all went to living online, and we all saw businesses fall apart and lose money who we never expected to because they didn't have the digital transformation turn around quick enough, or for whatever reason, there was a lot of businesses that suffered in the pandemic, and a lot thrived, and since that then, it was almost like awards and reviews together became even more important to all of us, because we needed something to help us to trust the brands other than, you know, the strongest referral, which is a word of mouth referral. So if you haven't had a word of mouth referral and you've gone online and you found something through a search, how do you know whether you can trust putting your money into that business to buy its products or services? So this is really where we come back to recognition, to say, Well, no, this is a this brand gives excellent customer service, or this brand is a great place to work. It really looks after its employees. So there's a huge amount of reasons now why businesses do awards to demonstrate they are trustworthy in so many ways like nowadays. You know, we live in a world where employees want to work for organizations that will look after them and that will treat them well, so that employees looking for jobs will go out looking for the businesses that have got a great place to work accreditation or award because it makes them trust that they're going to be looked after. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 32:08 it's interesting. Nielsen did a study back in 2016 regarding brand brand loyalty and disabilities, and what they found was that people with disabilities are at least 35% more likely to stay with an organization and buy from an organization that has done things like really taken the Time to make their websites accessible and to make their their environment welcoming to people with disabilities, because it is so hard to oftentimes deal with companies they're they're companies that that I deal with their websites. They're just not accessible, and they don't want to change, and it's not magic to make them accessible, but they don't, and then there are other companies that do, and I agree with the Nielsen study. It makes perfect sense, because the reality is, you're going to steal with companies that that really take the time to show that they value you being there, yeah,   Donna O'Toole ** 33:17 well, it's interesting, actually, because I've been looking at this in the awards industry and accessibility, and it's something that I'm passionate about as well. And so we've just written a white paper, we've just done some research, commissioned some research, and we've just written a white paper on accessibility and awards, because we want people to be recognized, whatever, whoever, whatever they do, it shouldn't be saved for anyone who isn't, you know, doesn't have a disability or can't access their forms. You know, it should be open to absolutely everybody. So we've been looking into that now and seeing, you know, what is it that we can do to influence the industry to be more accessible and to really share recognition for all?   Michael Hingson ** 33:59 Yeah, well, and, and it's important, I think, to do that, because there have been enough statistics to show that roughly 25% of the population has some sort of a disability in the traditional sense of the word. Now, I have a different view than that. I believe that everyone on the planet has a disability, and for most people, their disability is you're light dependent. You don't do well in the dark, and if suddenly you're in a building and the power goes out or whatever, you scramble around trying to find a light source or a smartphone or a flashlight or whatever. But the reality is that all those light sources do is cover up your disability. On the other hand, I do recognize that there are people. We're in a minority by any standard, because we are, we are not the traditional, if you will, person. We do tend to be blind, or we tend to be deaf or hard of hearing, or we tend to be low vision, or we don't walk, and there are fewer of. Less than there are of the rest of you light dependent people, and so you don't recognize the disability that's there. But it's, it's important, I think, for people to recognize it. Because in reality, when people suddenly realize, Oh, I've got my own challenges, then you get to be more aware of and want to, at least a lot of times, think about ways to make the world a more inclusive place overall.   Donna O'Toole ** 35:27 I think that's such a great way of looking at it, and it really helps immediately. I couldn't see exactly what you you're saying is, yeah, 100% as soon as the lights go out, I'm completely incapable of knowing what to do next. So, yeah, you're absolutely right.   Michael Hingson ** 35:44 Yeah, it is. It is one of those things that we just don't deal with enough. But nevertheless, it's, it's there. So there, there are a lot of reasons to to deal with access, and that's why I work with a company called accessibe that has been they started smaller and narrower in scope, but they have become very robust in doing things to make the internet a more inclusive place. And so one of the things that they've learned is you can't do it all with AI, although AI can help. And so there are so many things to be done, but the reality is, there are a lot of different kinds of disabilities that really need the Internet to and website creators to pay attention to their needs, to make sure that they, in fact, do what's necessary to make the web accessible to those people. It's a challenge.   Donna O'Toole ** 36:40 It is, and we're going through that challenge at the moment, actually. So I'm just launching a new business, and it's called, it's an AI platform that's going to enable people to do exactly what we do as an agency, find, enter and win awards, but on a platform that is accessible to everybody. So it's aI enabled. But obviously, as you exactly say, that's not the end of the story. So there's a lot of work to do, and we're doing lots of research to find out what we need to do to make sure that that is accessible to everybody, because we want to enable more people to have a good chance of getting the recognition they deserve through a platform that enables them to do that, rather than perhaps miss out on really vital recognition that could help to promote what they do just because they can't access it.   Michael Hingson ** 37:31 Yeah, well, and it happens way too, way too often. Yeah. And it's not like it's magical to make the web more inclusive. It's just that a lot of people don't know how to do it. Although the information is readily available, they just don't consider it a priority.   Donna O'Toole ** 37:48 Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, we're really putting this front and center. My business partner is Daniel Priestley. He's just been on the driver CEO actually talking about the AI side of it. So together, we're really working at trying to join all the dots so that we get all the right technologies in there and ways of working. So I'll be getting you beta testing that. Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 38:14 absolutely. And if there's any way to help, I am very happy to help. Thank you. So Don't, don't hesitate to reach out. So we will. We've now said that publicly for the whole world, that's all right. So what do you say to the person who says winning an award is just not for   Donna O'Toole ** 38:33 me? I think often, you know, I was thinking about this earlier, actually, and I was thinking, you know, there's different things that we're all in favor of and all not in favor of most of the time, when I come across people who say a winning awards is not, for me, is they either haven't been involved in an awards process before, or they feel a bit shy of it and like a bit of an imposter. And, you know, it's a risk, isn't it? You're putting yourself up to be judged, ultimately. So it does take a bit of courage, and it takes a bit of reflection. So, you know, I say, Look at what impact you're having, you know, go away and see, have you got impact on your customers? Somehow, have you got impact on your community? Somehow? It doesn't all have to be about transactional business. It could be that actually you're doing something great for the environment or sustainability or for a community source or for charity, you know, so what are you doing that's making a difference, and it could recognition help you to do more of that? Could it give you the spotlight to enable you to do more of that purpose? Because if it could, then why not, you know, why not do it and get some recognition?   Michael Hingson ** 39:36 Yeah, well, and that makes sense. And but some people may still just continue to say, well, I don't really think I've done that much, and so it isn't for me.   Donna O'Toole ** 39:47 Yeah, absolutely. And you'll always have people who don't want to do everything at the end of the day, you know, it's probably, realistically, it's probably, you know, the top 10% of businesses that are looking to win awards because they're already in that zone or. Where they're, you know, they're growing, they're they're trying to transform. They're always jumping on the next best thing. So, you know, it's a good way to benchmark ourselves as well, and to say, you know, how can I progress this year? Well, what would it take for me to win this particular award? Let's say, let's have a look at what it would take, and let's see if we can get to the business, to that stage, because that way you can develop the business first, before you even think of entering the award, so that you have got the impact, and you have got, you know, all the right things to show that you're making a difference.   Michael Hingson ** 40:31 Yeah, and you brought up a point earlier, which I think is extremely interesting, the whole issue of awards and reviews, one of the things that I do when I'm looking at buying a product that I'm not overly familiar with is I love to look at the worst reviews for the product. Yeah, they're the most fun, because you find out really quickly. If you look at those reviews, you find out whether the person really knows what they're talking about or not and whether they really got good arguments. And I find that the people who give the bad reviews generally are, are not, are not necessarily, really giving you substantive information that you can use.   Donna O'Toole ** 41:15 Yeah, exactly. That's often the way I am. I actually studied reviews, and I looked at the different language structures and reviews of different retail stores, and how, how the the language that the people used in their reviews influenced the buyers. And it was really funny, because this is back in the days. This is just when I was at university. I was doing my dissertation, and it was what we were looking for. What I was looking for was what represent, what people felt represented good value for money. Because no matter how much money you've got, whether you've got a pound to spend or 1000 pounds to spend, you just want to get good value for money for what you're spending. So it doesn't really matter how pricey the product is. It matters your perception of good value for money, and that's essentially what tends to come across in a review, even if people don't say it is whether they think it's good value for money or not, whether it's the brand or the actual product. And it was really funny, because I did this whole study, and I came up with a structure that retailers should use to give to their reviewers to then put the review in in the most helpful way possible for the people then looking at the reviews who want to purchase the product, and I it was great, and I was really happy with it, and got first class and all of that. Anyway, a while later, I bought a coat from a store called Debenhams in the UK, which is now only online. But I bought this coat, I wrote a review and put it on their website. And it was quite the early days of reviews. Still, two days later, Debenhams called me, and I couldn't believe it, because when you had to leave your review, you had to leave your name and number, and it was like, I said, it's a very new thing then. And they actually telephoned me, and they said, Hello, we want to say thank you for your review that you left about this coat, and I still have the coat. And because, because of your review, we sold out the product. And so we want to say thank you. So we're sending you a voucher. And I got this voucher through the post. And I mean, you wouldn't get that, I don't think nowadays, no, but it really showed me the difference that a review could make on a product back then, you know, and how writing the right type of review, not just saying it's great, but why it's great, why I considered it good value for money about the material and the sizing and the shape and all of the quality and that kind of thing. It gave people reassurance to buy, and that's what we're looking for when we're looking at reviews. And that's where awards can come in and kind of secure that trust as well. I don't know about you, but I get down rabbit holes with reviews on things like trip,   Michael Hingson ** 43:52 oh yeah. Well, what I found is, if I look at the positive, the best reviews, I get more good technical information, and I got and I get more good product knowledge, but then I look at the bad reviews, and the reason I look at those is I want to see if they truly are giving me the same information the other way, and they don't. They're it's totally emotional, and a lot of times it is just not, in fact, what I or others find with the products, and that the bad reviews tend not to really give you nearly the information that the bad reviewers think they're giving you if you if you read them carefully. And I think that gets back to your whole issue of studying language, but still, they're not giving you the information that they really ought to be giving you. And, you know, I've had some where somebody gave a bad review to a product because the box arrived and it was open or wasn't sealed. Well, yeah, all right, so what   Donna O'Toole ** 44:55 exactly I know it's ridiculous. I mean, I think we're as consumers a bit more. Pragmatic about it nowadays, but as businesses, we need to be able to demonstrate to our customers in every way possible, you know. And that's why social media now and user generated content is so popular. Because we don't want to see what it looks like on a model anymore. We want to see what it looks like on a real life, personal we want to hear someone's like real life, day to day experience of something, as opposed to a polished article on it, right,   Michael Hingson ** 45:26 which, which is, is the way it ought to be. And again, that gets back to substance. And the the people who give really good reviews are generally the ones that are giving you substance. I've had some bad reviewers that had very good reasons for why they feel the way they do. And then you look at it and you go, Well, maybe it doesn't fit in their situation or, aha, they really know what they're talking about. I'm going to take that into consideration when I look at buying this product or not. But a lot of them   Donna O'Toole ** 45:57 don't. Absolutely, no, absolutely, yeah, I could do this for days.   Michael Hingson ** 46:04 Yeah. Well, it is. It is fascinating, but it's part of human nature   Donna O'Toole ** 46:09 psychology, isn't I tell you when else it comes up and it's quite interesting. So often we make companies may approach us and say, Leo, we want to win awards to be the best place to work. And we'll say, okay, great, you know, tell us about the workplace, and we'll go through all these different criteria with them, and they tell us all this great stuff. And then we go and do our own research as well, because we need to verify this, right? And we go on to glass door, and then we see some horrendous reviews from employees that have left. I think, okay, maybe this is, maybe this is not quite all the story we're getting here. Yeah. So, you know, the thing with awards is, if you are saying anything about your business, you're going to have to prove it. So reviews from your customers and reviews from your employees are super important for awards. Actually,   Michael Hingson ** 46:59 I find as a speaker that letters of recommendation are extremely important. In fact, I even put it in my contract that if someone likes the talk, then I expect to get a letter of recommendation. And for a good amount of people, they do that, although I've had some people who forget or just don't. But the letters are extremely valuable, especially when they go into detail about not just the talk, but like in my case, I view when I visit a customer, or when I view when I talk about going to speak somewhere, I believe that I'm a guest like anyone who goes, and it's not about me, it's about them. It's about the event. It's about the people who are putting it on. It's about the audience. And I always want to make sure that I do everything I can to be as not a problem as possible. And I know that there are some people that don't do that. I had a I had an event once where I went and spoke, and while there, I talked to the person who brought me in, and I said, What's the most difficult speaker you ever had? Had come here? And I was just curious. I was curious to see what he say without any hesitation. He said, We had a woman who came to speak, and we honored the contract, although still don't know why, but she insisted that in the green room, and so there had to be one, but in the green room there had to be a brand new, never used crystal champagne flute full of pink M M's. Now what does that have to do with being a speaker? Well, I know some people just like to take people through the wringer. They want to try to drive the point home that they're the bosses. Well, I think that, you know, I know what I can do. What I said to the guy, though afterward I said, Well, okay, I hear you. They actually did find peak Eminem. So was interesting. I said, Well, let me just tell you that if you bring cheese and crackers, I'll share them with you.   49:10 They brought you that we had fun, yes,   Michael Hingson ** 49:13 but, you know, but, but he, he understood that there were no demands. I wouldn't do that. I just think that that's not what I'm supposed to do as a speaker. My job is to in a well, inspire and motivate and and to educate. But it's not my job to be difficult. And I've gotten some wonderful letters that say how easy I made it to work with them, which is great. Yeah, fantastic. I'm sure you did. So it's, it's a lot of fun to to see some of those, and I've gotten some great stories over the years, which is really   Speaker 1 ** 49:46 a lot, and that's why they love to have you. Well, I hope so   Michael Hingson ** 49:53 we still do it, and it's a lot of fun to help and motivate and inspire. But yeah, I. I and by the way, I guess I'd never be interested in pink M M's anyway, so I wouldn't see the colors. So,   Donna O'Toole ** 50:08 yeah, glass of water is just about the thing on my list.   Michael Hingson ** 50:12 Yeah, well, you know, I'll take M M's if they show up. And I'm not going to demand them, that's okay. But you know, people are interesting. So once somebody's won an award, you've talked about this some, but when I once somebody has won an award, what's next?   Donna O'Toole ** 50:28 So next, it's all about, well, sharing it to demonstrate why people often forget to tell people why they've won an award. They just say that they've won an award. I think it's important to say, why? Like, what is it? What is it? What impact are you having? What's the difference that you're making out there in the world? Why have you won and share that on your profile? As I said, you know, people buy from people now as well. If you're winning an award as a leader or as a speaker or as an entrepreneur, you know people want to know about that because it helps to give credibility to what you do and trust like, just like those letters of referral that you're talking about. So, you know, get that on your LinkedIn profile, get it onto your podcast, you know, all of those different things, and take pride in your work and share that   Michael Hingson ** 51:14 I had a salesperson I hired is my favorite sales guy, and when I asked him, as I asked everybody who came to apply for jobs, what are you going to be selling for us? Tell me about that. He is the only person who ever said, The only thing I really have to sell is myself and my word. Your product is stuff, and it's all about trust and it's all about honoring my word. And he said, The only thing I asked from you is that you backed me up. And I said, well, as long as you do a good job, you know, but he understood it, and he's actually the only person that I ever hired that really articulated that, but that was always the answer I was looking for, because it really told me a lot about him. Just that simple answer told me more about him than anything else anyone, even he could say,   Donna O'Toole ** 52:06 yeah, absolutely. So it's so important, and you know, so I'm part of a key person of influence program that Daniel Priestley runs, and it's I do profile coaching for entrepreneurs to help them to become a key person of influence in their in their industry. And now that's not being an influencer. That's being someone who's known for being good at what they do and being a key person in that industry. And you know, work flows to you if people know what you do and know who to come to because you're the expert in that area, if you're a small business, you're an entrepreneur, you're struggling to get leads, then actually maybe you need to make yourself put bit more known. People tend to be bit shy and hide behind their brand. But you know, if you look at people like Richard Branson, you know, we when you trust an entrepreneur, then you will buy from the brand. And there's many more entrepreneurs I could mention, who when the trust is lost with them because of their behavior in some way, then their brand suffers. It's quite clear to see, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 53:09 do you find that most people who win an award do carry on and do positive things as a result, and that their brand and what they do improves, or is some people win and just falls by the wayside.   Donna O'Toole ** 53:27 Generally speaking, if you're the people that are going in for awards, the brands that are going forwards, they're progressive, so they usually progress with it. There's a piece of research that shows that businesses that have won awards are around 77% more valuable than businesses without awards even five years after winning. And that's because when you're going for an award in business, you've got to do a lot of develop. You know, there's got to be some good stuff happening in your business. And so naturally, the businesses that are doing those good things want to keep doing more of those good things internally, and so they tend to keep driving the business forward. And they have that motivation. They have motivated teams who are being recognized for the work that they're doing, and all of that naturally pushes them forward. So in five years time, they're still leagues ahead of their competitors that are not winning awards.   Michael Hingson ** 54:20 So always worth exploring winning awards. Oh, 100% Yeah. If   Donna O'Toole ** 54:27 I always say, I think, quote Nelson Mandela on this, you've got nothing to lose. You'll either win or you'll learn. If you don't win, then you should learn something about what you do need to do to win, and that will bring your business on.   Michael Hingson ** 54:39 Absolutely agree it's like, I also believe there's no such thing as failure. Failure is really it didn't go the way you planned. And so what do you learn in order to make that not happen again?   Donna O'Toole ** 54:51 Yeah, exactly, that exactly. So we need that kind of resilience in business today,   Michael Hingson ** 54:57 if people listening and watching this. Just take away one lesson and get one piece of advice out of this. What should it be?   Donna O'Toole ** 55:04 Understand your impact? I would say people don't often understand their impact. So ask your customers, ask your employees, what's improved since we've been working together? What? What if? What's improved for you since you've been using our product? And then calculate up what is that impact that you're having? You know, if 90% of your customers are saying that since using your product, I don't know, they're they're they're having a better their their accounts are better, or their skin is better. You whatever it is your product or your service is, then you've got impact that you're having. So start investigating what that impact is, and then that will help to steer you towards which kind of awards you could potentially be winning as well.   Michael Hingson ** 55:47 And of course, if you really think about your impact and whoever you are and whatever business you're doing, and you do monitor that, then that's one of the most important things that you can do about your business anyway, and people should be doing that.   Donna O'Toole ** 56:01 Yeah, exactly. But probably 90% of people that come to me aren't measuring their impact, and so it's a surprise, but I always say, Well, if you don't know what your impact is, how do you know that what your product or your services works? Just because people are buying it, you still need to know what your impact is. How do you measure impact? Oh, you can measure it in so many different ways, and you want in awards to be able to demonstrate it both quantitatively and qualitatively. So typically, in large corporate organizations, they will be measuring impact. So there's something called net promoter scores. So, you know, they'll be asking customers, would they recommend them? They'll ask them what they're enjoying about their products and things. So they tend to have some kind of measurement built into their process, in their customer departments, however, in smaller businesses, often they don't. So I say, you know, draw up a simple survey, ask your customers what's changed since you've been working with us. Let's say you're a service provider. So are you less stressed since you've been working with us? Do you have more revenue coming in since you've been working with us? What is it? And get them to answer a little survey. And then you could go all this collective impact that you can put together to look at the percentages and see what that's telling you. And if you don't want to know what the impact is in your business, then I question why you don't want to why   Michael Hingson ** 57:16 you're in the business in the first place, exactly. Well, tell us about your book. You've mentioned books several times, yeah.   Donna O'Toole ** 57:23 So I wrote a book called Win, of course, raise your profile and grow your business through winning awards. And really, it's a toolkit for for entrepreneurs. I was working with a lot of large businesses, and, you know, I was conscious that small businesses don't always have the resources to win awards or to be able to outsource. So I wrote a book that they could use to follow the toolkit, essentially, of winning awards. So that's developing their strategy, knowing understanding how awards work and which ones would suit their business, setting awards goals, understanding criteria. What does innovation really mean? What do they want to see? What kind of evidence do I need to provide? How do I know if it's the right race for me? All of those things. So it takes you end to end, through the awards journey internationally. You know, no matter where you are, you can follow the same process, and you could nowadays, it's really important to become the most award winning in your sector, so you can follow the process to get there. And that's a hugely valuable tagline.   Michael Hingson ** 58:26 And I appreciate that you sent us a picture of the book cover, and it is in the show notes. I hope people will go get   Donna O'Toole ** 58:31 it absolutely and it is on Audible as well, so that everyone can access it. So yeah, enjoy listening to my voice a lot more.   Michael Hingson ** 58:39 I was just going to ask if you read it. I did read it for you.   Donna O'Toole ** 58:44 Do you know what it was? I was so proud of that I was more proud of the audible recording than I was of writing at the book. But I don't know why. I think it's because I actually really enjoy listening to books on audio. So I'm quite passionate about listening. I like listening to the actual author's voice, though. So I found I was quite interesting, actually, when I found, when I recorded it, that was quite good at recording audio. The studio guy that I was working with was like, Oh, you're really good at this. We could just drop it words back in if there was a mistake.   Michael Hingson ** 59:14 There you are. See, it is so much better to edit today than it used to be, because now it is. It is all electronic, and I, I edit from time to time, just different things and all that I don't we work on not editing the podcast. That is, I don't want to cut out part of a conversation, because it is a conversation, but, but now you can do so many things, like, if there's a lot of noise, you can even filter that out without affecting the camera. It is so cool.   Donna O'Toole ** 59:43 Yeah, very, very clever. So, yeah, get it on Audible. There you   Michael Hingson ** 59:47 go. Well, great. Well, I hope people will Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and you should get an award for doing it. That's all there is to it. But I really appreciate you being here. And. I appreciate all of you out there listening to us and watching us. Love to get your thoughts. How do people reach out to you? Donna, if they'd like to to talk with you,   Donna O'Toole ** 1:00:09 absolutely. So you can con

The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported the Consumer Price Index (CPI) and Core CPI; the National Federation of Independent Business (NFIB) released the NFIB Small Business Optimism Index; Kevin has the details, looks at the data, digs through the information, puts it all into historical perspective and offers his insights, as well as an opinion or two. Crude oil and gas prices reacts to the U.S. and China extending the tariff pause until November, upcoming Trump-Putin talks on Friday, the CPI and Core CPI, OPEC upgrading the 2026 oil demand growth forecast and the anticipated Energy Information Agency report.

Dr. William Dunkelberg, Chief Economist, National Federation of Independent Business

Meet Tricia Copeland. She is an award-winning author of books for youth and young adults. Mostly she writes fantasy books, but as we learn during this episode, she also does write some romance books.   Tricia says that as a child she hated writing. Even so, she went to school and eventually she went to college where she received a degree in Microbiology. She also attained a Master's degree. She then went to work for a chemical company. After four years she found herself beginning a journey of technical writing and writing patterns and supporting materials.   After a few years Tricia became a stay-at-home-mom for a time. She tells us how she loved to tell stories and entertain her children.   We learn how she wrote her first fiction book series in 2015-16 about her time facing anorexia. In real life, she faced this and overcame it. She then began writing fantasy youth books and realized not only that she could write, but that she did not hate writing at all. She has written several series and has plans for more.     About the Guest:   Tricia Copeland is the critically acclaimed and award-winning author of Kingdom of Embers, To be Fae Queen, Lovelock Ones, and Azreya, Aztec Priestess, and dozens of other titles. She is the host of the Finding the Magic Book Podcast who weaves magical stories about love, courage, and finding your passion.   Tricia began her author journey with a women's fiction series, the Being Me series, which is an adaptation of her experience with anorexia. Afterwards she quickly pivoted to her favorite genre, fantasy. Her young adult fantasy series highlight themes including resilience, perseverance, faith, loyalty, trust, friendship, family, and love. They include the Kingdom Journals and Realm Chronicles series that find witches, vampires, and fae fighting an evil spirit determined to end them all. She tempers the high stakes drama in these books with her fun rom coms in the Perfect romance series.   Tricia Copeland believes in finding magic. She thinks magic infuses every aspect of our lives, whether it is the magic of falling in love, discovering a new passion, seeing a beautiful sunset, or reading a book that transports us to another world. An avid runner and Georgia native, Tricia now lives with her family and four-legged friends in Colorado. Find all her titles including contemporary romance, now penned under Maria Jane, young adult fantasy, and dystopian fiction at www.triciacopeland.com.   Ways to connect with Tricia:   https://triciacopeland.com https://www.facebook.com/TriciaCopelandAuthor/ https://www.instagram.com/authortriciacopeland/ https://twitter.com/tcbrzostowicz https://www.tiktok.com/@triciacopelandauthor https://www.youtube.com/@triciacopelandauthor https://www.amazon.com/stores/Tricia-Copeland/author/B00YHN5Q4G https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/14055439.Tricia_Copeland https://www.bookbub.com/authors/tricia-copeland     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.     Michael Hingson ** 01:17 Well, hello everyone. We're really glad to have you here, wherever you may happen to be listening in from. We're really glad that you're listening to unstoppable mindset. I'm your host, Michael hingson, and our guest today is Tricia Copeland. Tricia is a prolific author. I use that word absolutely without any any concern, a prolific author of children's books, especially in the fantasy world. So she has been doing this a while and and also has an interesting story just of her life to tell. So we're going to go into all of that and delve in and see where we go. So Tricia, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Tricia Copeland ** 02:05 Thank you, Michael, I appreciate you having me, and I do want to make a little edit to that intro. Okay, go ahead. My books are young adult to New Adult books, so ages 13 plus mostly, all right,   Michael Hingson ** 02:19 so young adult to new adult. All right, that's fair. So how do you feel that your books fall into the range of things like the Harry Potter series and so on, sort of the same age groups,   Tricia Copeland ** 02:40 right? Genre adjacent, I have a series, The Kingdom Journal series, which includes three witches that have to break a curse on the witch lines. So the witches have to find each other as well as figure out how to break the curse using various forms of magic. So not really the same as Harry Potter, but definitely with with the witches, and the kind of contemporary world that Harry Potter is. But actually, I won't say that, because I haven't I think Harry Potter is mostly in the contemporary world, right? I didn't read all the books. I have to admit that he's   Michael Hingson ** 03:18 somewhat in the contemporary world, but, but I was thinking more of from a standpoint of the same type of age group.   Tricia Copeland ** 03:25 Yes, I think a younger reader. I think people started reading Harry Potter maybe around 10 or 11. And these books have older teenagers to start, age 1718, so 13 Plus is a good indicator. I think the other   Michael Hingson ** 03:42 thing I would observe about Harry Potter is that there are a lot of people who aren't necessarily teenagers or young adults, including me, who have read them and enjoyed them. I think that that Harry Potter certainly brought an interesting dimension to reading for teenagers especially, and hopefully young adults, because a lot of people did catch on to them, and they they had a great theme, and you do some of the same sorts of things by virtue of the fact of what you're writing and who you're writing it for,   Tricia Copeland ** 04:17 right? They definitely caught adult eyes and hearts and minds too   Michael Hingson ** 04:23 well, tell us somewhat about the early Trisha growing up and so on. Love to learn a little bit more about you, and then we can talk about whatever we feel is relevant to talk about the early Tricia,   Tricia Copeland ** 04:35 right? Well, I grew up in rural South Georgia, small town in south Georgia, and always loved reading and hiking and the outdoors, and very quickly, knew that maybe I didn't want to be in a small town forever. So I went to college in Atlanta, and I got a degree in microbiology, and from there, I got a master's. Degree, and I started my career in Central Research and Development at a chemical company, a large chemical company. So I was looking at making chemicals from microbes. And that was very exciting. That was my dream job that I'd always wanted. So that was very cool to be able to achieve that goal, and I actually didn't like writing until I started doing more technical writing with papers and patents.   Michael Hingson ** 05:29 Technical writing can be boring, but people could make it more exciting than oftentimes they do. I would say I've had to do some of it. I understand   Tricia Copeland ** 05:39 well, you have to like the topic, right? If you don't like the topic, you're not going to like the paper,   Michael Hingson ** 05:45 right? But also, I think that a lot of technical writers write and it's all very factual, but I think even in technical writing, it would be better if writers could do some things to draw in readers. And I've always felt that about textbooks. For example, my master's degree and bachelor's degree are in physics, and I've always maintained that the the physics people who write these books, who are oftentimes fairly substantial characters in in the genre, if you will, or in the field, could do a lot more to interest people in science and physics by rather than just doing these technical books, telling some stories along the way, and bringing people in and making people relate more to the topic. And they don't do that like I think at least that they should.   Tricia Copeland ** 06:36 I guess that can be said, maybe for every technical Yeah. Area,   Michael Hingson ** 06:43 yeah, it would be nice if technical writers spend a little bit of time, but of course, then the other side of it is that the industry doesn't want that. So what do you   Tricia Copeland ** 06:54 do? It may be a catch 22 on that one   Michael Hingson ** 06:56 might be, but that's okay. So how long did you stay working at the tech at the chemical companies and so on?   Tricia Copeland ** 07:06 I was in the lab for four years, and then I moved into the patent Legal Group. So I began my career as a Patent Agent, and now that's what I do for a living. My day job is that I help clients draft and file their patent applications.   Michael Hingson ** 07:22 So you have your own business doing that. I do, yes, oh,   Tricia Copeland ** 07:28 well, I write by day and I write by night.   Michael Hingson ** 07:32 Yeah, well, that can be pretty exciting, though. You get all sorts of interesting things to write about. I   Tricia Copeland ** 07:40 do I meet a lot of cool people that are inventing cool things.   Michael Hingson ** 07:44 So here's the question, do you ever find that what you write about during the day influences you, and you want to use some of that, or the general concepts of some of that, at night, when you're doing your your fiction writing?   Tricia Copeland ** 07:58 I haven't done that yet, I did write one dystopian fiction about a viral pandemic, and that touched on a little bit of my background in microbiology and genetics, but not anything that my clients have done   Michael Hingson ** 08:19 well. So you got into the patent field when you when you started doing that initially, were you doing it for a company, or did you just leap out on your own and start to have your own business?   Speaker 1 ** 08:30 Yes, I was doing that for a company. Okay? And how long did you do that? I was at that company   Tricia Copeland ** 08:35 about a year and a half. And at the time, we lived in Pennsylvania and outside of Philly. So then we had a job change, and we moved to Denver, so I took a little time off to be with my kids before I started my business.   Michael Hingson ** 08:53 So how long ago did you start the business?   Speaker 1 ** 08:57 In 2012 so 13 years doing it a while? Wow,   Michael Hingson ** 09:01 okay, and obviously you're having some success because you're still doing it.   Tricia Copeland ** 09:05 I am. Yes, I love helping my clients, and feel like I can definitely give them a value add   Michael Hingson ** 09:14 if you're not giving something away. What's probably the most interesting patent that you helped somebody work on attaining   Tricia Copeland ** 09:24 I will say, I worked with an inventor a year ago, and amazing man, he had had his career in education and teaching, and he developed a set of blocks to help people or Help kids. I should say, learn the parts of speech so you could put the together, the blocks, whether it was a subject, verb, pronoun, noun, adjective, adverb, and I learned parts of speech that I never knew existed from helping them with this application, and I was very excited. To help him get his patent. That's kind of cool.   Michael Hingson ** 10:04 Yeah, I am fair. I'm not sure I know all the parts of speech, but I remember being involved in high school well and in elementary school and diagramming sentences and learning a lot about the different or a number of the different parts of speech. Not sure I necessarily remember all of them extremely well, so I probably split infinitives and well, what do you do?   Tricia Copeland ** 10:28 Yes, I hated sentence structures.   Michael Hingson ** 10:35 Well, so what got you started then, since you were writing patents for people and so on, and helping people in securing patents. What got you then started in dealing with fiction writing, right?   Tricia Copeland ** 10:49 Well, when my kids were very young, I was a stay at home mom, and most of my days were spent chasing them around, occupying them, entertaining them, shuttling them from one place to another. So I realized in the evenings I was bored. I did my mind didn't have enough to occupy it. And I was about, I think it was about 38 and, you know, looking at my 40 year old birthday and thinking, huh, well, and I maybe it was like my 20 year high school reunion. I don't know why it coincide coincided, but I started thinking about my early college years I developed anorexia, and thinking about that time in my life and how poignant it was that I was able to recover from that disease and really gain some life skills from that experience. So I started a story that was a fictionalized account of my experience with anorexia and recovering for anorexia. So my first series, called the being me series, is a four book series about a character named Amanda who develops anorexia and then is able to recover.   Michael Hingson ** 12:01 So what caused if you understand, or, man, I don't know a lot about anorexia, Anorexia, and probably have some misconceptions about what I'm about to ask, but what, what caused it? Why did you develop that condition?   Tricia Copeland ** 12:16 Well, there's a lot of I mean, it happens differently for a lot of people, I think anorexia is a lot about control and having control over your environment. And I got there was a number of factors that I was depressed and not happy about not feeling like I was achieving, maybe what I should be achieving, and instead of someone might have turned to alcohol or drugs to alleviate those stressful feelings. I channeled all that into Okay? Well, if I'm just thin and if I just look good enough, then everything will be fine. And obviously, once your brain starts to get in that cycle, it just compounds on itself. You can't stop yourself from thinking that way. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 13:05 and what helped you get out of doing that? Was it writing or what? What really caused you to realize that ain't the way to go?   Tricia Copeland ** 13:16 Yeah, I almost died. That was it very it was a low point. And really, you know, if I didn't do something different, if I didn't let people help me do something different, I would not have made it. So really, you know, a lot of that is like educating people how serious eating disorders are, as well as how helpless sometimes the person that is experiencing them is in being able to help themselves.   Michael Hingson ** 13:48 And you said that this happened somewhat in your your college years.   Tricia Copeland ** 13:53 Yes, I was 20.   Michael Hingson ** 13:56 Were there a lot of pressures were, were people criticizing you in any way that helped contribute to it, or was it sort of really   Tricia Copeland ** 14:04 internally? Part of it was internally. Part of it was, you know, what I thought people's expectations I was in. I was at a engineering school and I was a biology major, so maybe that wasn't the best place for me. Everybody was very high in performing. Yeah, yeah. There are many, many factors, I think, and just my my brain that was not processing things, maybe as realistically as they could have been processed.   Michael Hingson ** 14:33 But what you eventually did about it was to write a series about it, so clearly you were able to move beyond it, and then, if you will, talk about it,   Tricia Copeland ** 14:45 right, right? So I went into inpatient recovery, and then was able to get the help that I needed with therapist and psycho psychiatrist and support groups, and that was a big help. And then, yes, 20 years later, I. Wrote a series about it.   Michael Hingson ** 15:02 Well, that's pretty cool. And again, it's I'm always one who admires people who are able to and willing to talk about things. I went to an event last year was the Marshfield, Missouri Cherry Blossom Festival, and the Cherry Blossom Festival, which happens every April, is a celebration of American history, and they'll bring people in who have some relationship to an historic event, or who have relatives who were so for example, the great grandson of President Grant was at this event, but one of the people who was there was a former secret service agent who rode in the car behind John Kennedy when he was in Dallas and assassinated, and it took him 45 years to get to the point where he could come out of his experiences enough to start to talk about it, and I just have always admired people who do that. For me, being in the World Trade Center on September 11 and getting out, I never really viewed it as all that traumatic, but I guess it was, but my way to deal with it was, and I realized it much later, but we had so many newspaper reporters who wanted to know about the blind guy who got out of the World Trade Center. I talked about it, I mean, answered everyone's questions. And that was ironically, I love to pick on the media, but ironically, it was the media that really probably helped me move forward from September 11 the most.   Tricia Copeland ** 16:41 Yeah, I can imagine that was a lot of processing that you were able to do, as you talked about it.   Michael Hingson ** 16:48 People asked all sorts of questions, some really good questions, some not so good questions. And we got to observe all sorts of different types of press people. We had one Italian film crew who came to our house, there were 13 people, most of whom didn't really seem to do a whole lot, but they were there. And then there was a Japanese crew that came. And I think there were two people. It's just amazing what you see and what you learn. And for me and my wife, both now my late wife, but both, both of us love to observe and study and really think about what all these people are doing and how they do it, and we use it as ways to help us learn more about things, if you will, studying and being a student. I think of life as always an important thing,   Tricia Copeland ** 17:39 right, yeah, and I guess everybody reacts different to trauma and how you can process that everybody needs a little bit different. But yes, if you could look at things through a learning lens, that can definitely help too.   Michael Hingson ** 17:52 So you wrote the being me series. How many books are in that series? Four books, four books. Okay, and so, how long ago did you write those?   Tricia Copeland ** 18:03 I published them between 2015 and 2016   Michael Hingson ** 18:07 Okay, did you self publish or I do? Yes, you still do. Okay, great. Well, all right, and then what? What made you decide to then continue and start going into sort of teenage and so on, fiction and fantasy and so on, right?   Tricia Copeland ** 18:31 I realized that I just loved writing, and it was something that I didn't want to stop doing. So when I looked around for my next genre to write in, it was very obviously fantasy. For me. I read fantasy from a very young age. I loved Merlin and King authors legends and the Lord of the Rings and all of those books as a young person and a young adult, and that's just what I wanted to write. So my first book, interestingly enough, my editor sent it back to me and said, This is not fantastical enough. You need to make it more paranormal. So it took a minute to make that switch. What   Michael Hingson ** 19:15 book was that   Tricia Copeland ** 19:16 that is drops of sunshine and it is mirrored off an experience I had. I was a camp counselor at a camp for the blind when I was in I guess after my freshman year of college, and the campers in my story have these extra sensory skills where they can read people's minds. That was the paranormal aspect of my book, and that's not known in the beginning the story to our main character, and then she discovers that these kids have this special talent, and that was how my fantasy books started out. Mm, hmm.   Michael Hingson ** 20:00 Then where did it go from   Tricia Copeland ** 20:01 there? Then I jumped into the witches with the kingdom Journal series. I developed a character that was a vampire or is a vampire witch hybrid, and so she has a vampire mother and a witch father, but she doesn't know who her father is. She's never met him. And to make things a little bit harder, vampire witch Hyderabad are not allowed, but either the witch lines or the vampires, so both the vampires and the witches got together and said, these beings are too dangerous. We're not going to allow them in our society. And if she's discovered, then she'll be killed. That was the first character, Alina, and she's and to give her just a little more stress, I put her in a human High School, so now she pretends, you know, can't pretend to be a witch. Can't pretend to be a vampire. She needs to be human too. And, yeah, so that was a really fun book to write, and that's the series where the trinity of witches has to come together, so she has to find the other two witches of the Trinity, and they each get to tell their story in the books too. So that's why it's called the kingdom journals. It's a little bit of a journal format, so each character gets to tell their own story as well as telling the overall plot line of the series. How   Michael Hingson ** 21:19 do you come up with these characters and create these stories? I mean, it's very imaginative. I wouldn't have thought of it. How do you, and I'm sure other people say that, but how do you create the characters? How does all that   Tricia Copeland ** 21:32 work? Yeah, I set out, funny enough, I set out to write a vampire series that was my vampire is my favorite fantasy characters. And I thought, Okay, I'm gonna write a vampire series. It's not you don't want to do it too far out from what most people write or most people think of vampires. But I wanted my vampires to be a little bit different from the other vampires and other series. So I had this idea of making the vampire witch hybrid and her set in a human High School, and what would that look like? And then the challenge? I wasn't sure what I wanted to do with the challenge, but somehow I came up with this curse, and the curse was on the witch line, so it very quickly morphed into more of a witch book and the magical side of things, but the vampire characters are still there, and I explore them a little bit, although not as much as the witches.   Michael Hingson ** 22:27 Do you find that the characters essentially tell you what they want to be and who they are and why they do what they do. How much are the characters involved in your writing process? I've heard other authors say that that in some of the fiction things, the characters really create the story   Tricia Copeland ** 22:47 they do. I feel like my books are very character driven. So how I usually start with the idea for a character and think of their personality, their challenges, what I want, what themes I want to show with that character and then build the world sort of around that character. So it shows those themes and those character traits and what they're overcoming, either in their personal life or in their their physical life, right? But I do have characters that go off script. In the second book, kingdom of darkness. I have a character who we're not sure if he's a good guy or a bad guy. The main character thinks that he may be trying to delude her into thinking he's good when he's not really good. But I wrote him so well, like he was so nice that I couldn't make him a villain. So he became, I rewrote the story a little bit. I'd written it in my mind, I guess, but I rewrote it a little bit. So he did end up being a villain. And then somehow he got his whole own book, so he gets to star in his whole book after that.   Michael Hingson ** 23:54 And does he stay a villain? No, he   Tricia Copeland ** 23:57 didn't stay. He didn't was never, I mean, I kind of wrote it so the main character thought he was a villain, but in the end, I didn't make him a villain.   Michael Hingson ** 24:06 Well, I like books like that. I yeah, I think that most creatures are generally pretty nice.   Tricia Copeland ** 24:14 We would hope so,   Michael Hingson ** 24:16 although I don't know that that bears necessarily are overly generally nice to people, but, you know, who knows? Yeah, that doesn't mean they're evil either. Well, no, yeah.   Tricia Copeland ** 24:27 I mean, they're just living their life, right? That's they need their food sources. Is just like we need our food sources. So   Michael Hingson ** 24:35 I'd rather not be their food source, though, but that's okay, right?   Tricia Copeland ** 24:39 Yeah, and I don't know. I do struggle with, like, evil or antagonistic characters, because I'm, I don't like the idea that there's a character that is purely evil for no reason. So that is, that's always a grapple in an author's mind. I think,   Michael Hingson ** 24:56 well, and you know, I'll go back to Harry Potter. Modern Of course, we have Lord waldemart, who was definitely evil. But even so, the way she created the characters and the way she crafted the books, which probably in some ways, are similar, just in a process of what you do, it's not necessarily overly graphically evil. Even if there's evil, it isn't so graphic that you you you become totally adverse or against it. Evil or bad things are there, but it's all on how you present it. That's why I like books that are essentially puzzles, if you will, because they leave a lot of things to your imagination, and they give you the ability to as a reader, think about it, but as a writer, you also are essentially drawing the reader in to where you want the reader to go, but, but they're puzzles, rather than just some graphic thing, talking about all these horrible, mean, nasty things that a character may do.   Tricia Copeland ** 26:08 That's true, and it's all perspective, right? So the quote, unquote villain in my series is out to destroy all the vampires. But then you meet vampires that are good vampires, right? And you think, Huh, well, maybe this one vampire shouldn't be destroyed, because this vampire is not acting in a mean or hurtful way. So many sides to those questions,   Michael Hingson ** 26:33 yeah. Well, so the Kingdom series. How many books are in that one?   Tricia Copeland ** 26:38 There are four books in the main series, and there's a prequel to that series, okay?   Michael Hingson ** 26:45 And then what happened? What happened after that series?   Tricia Copeland ** 26:48 So in the finale, kingdom of war, my witches were going to have this huge battle against a vampire army that the evil witch created to, you know, battle the good witches. Yeah, she put which souls in the vampires. So that made them sort of like super vampires. But anyway, my witches needed an army, and I thought who would be a good character to be, to have an army that can come help the witches. So, yeah, the beings I thought of were fairies, and I created a queen Titania, is her name, who had an army who would come help the witches battle these vampire witch soul hybrid be. And when I created her, she just kind of took on her own character, and I quickly morphed that into what was her backstory, what were struggles? Where was she living? Where would the spay army come from? And that is what kind of launched my realm chronicle series, that the finale is coming out next month. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 28:10 that's that's pretty cool, and that that answers, again, the question we talked about earlier. The character actually took over, if you will, the writing, which is always cool, because that really shows how deeply you're invested in the characters and you let them have their voices, right?   Tricia Copeland ** 28:26 And I couldn't really give up the characters from my kingdom Journal series. They not, you know, not to give too much away, but they do complete their first quest and but this evil witch who's trying to destroy the vampires is still out there somewhere, so I couldn't completely let them go. So the witches from my kingdom Journal series come into the round Chronicles series, and the fairies and the witches are continuing to help each other.   Michael Hingson ** 28:56 Well, that's cool. Well, it's kind of neat to even though it's a new series, and I assume you can read one without reading the other, but still, it's neat that you, you follow on and help to craft and expand the world.   Tricia Copeland ** 29:11 It's been a lot of fun. And I, you know, selfishly, I didn't want to let go the characters. I felt like they had a little bit of story left in them, and I was able to do that through the round chronicle series. And yeah, it it was a lot of fun for me to   Michael Hingson ** 29:26 write. And now, of course, the question is, will there be a lot more story with them, which is part of the adventure that will come next? Right?   Tricia Copeland ** 29:33 Yes, I'm, I'm thinking of that. I put my characters through a lot. So after I finished the finale, I felt like I just had to let them rest. I'm not really sure if I will continue with those same characters or or either pull out some different characters from that book to have their own stories. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 29:54 well, it's, it's going to be an adventure. No question about. It   30:00 definitely so   Michael Hingson ** 30:04 with your books. Do you have themes in your books? That is, are you? Are you trying to convey messages? Do you have themes and things that you want people to think about as they go through reading your books?   Tricia Copeland ** 30:16 I do. I feel like I like that in the book, and so I kind of embed that in my books too, but it's really more about what is the character grappling with. Not only, like I said in their physical world, maybe Queen Titania is the first female queen in her realm, and some of the old guard, other monarchs are not sure that a female should be able to rule, So that's sort of an out, outside challenge. But she also has inner conflict and challenges where she's not really trusting that she really can do it and she's really supposed to do it, and should she, you know, hand the crown to someone else who may be older or wiser or and so it does she have faith in herself. You know, would sort of be that theme there. And so each of the books have, I mean, it's not like I say, hey, the theme of this book is you need to believe in yourself, yeah, but just showing that the character arcs and how they overcome their challenges.   Michael Hingson ** 31:22 How do you again create those? How do you work those in what? What's the process that allows you to to put those themes in and and add them to the book and bring that value out? Right?   Tricia Copeland ** 31:37 I guess it's just how, the way I the challenges I choose to put in front of my characters and showing them fail at times, and showing them I do write first person, so you're getting a very up close view of what the character is thinking and feeling at all times. So I think that helps with a little bit of that, knowing that the character is struggling with whatever their um, XYZ, inner, inner turmoil that they're struggling with. And then, you know, just having other characters bounce things off of them, because the character themselves might not realize, hey, I I get anxious when I'm not in control of situations. So, you know, somebody might say, Hey, you're doing this again, stop.   Michael Hingson ** 32:29 That's why we have editors,   32:30 right,   Michael Hingson ** 32:33 and other people to help well, so you are you, but you clearly talk with your characters and you let them have a voice, which is, I think, something that adds a really great dimension to the writing that you do. And I think it's very important to do that.   Tricia Copeland ** 32:51 I hope so. I have very detailed character sheets for each of my characters. I create much bigger back stories than, probably, than really makes it into the books, just to be able to know, like, how my characters will react in situations, what their growth needs to be, where areas that I want to show that growth, and what's most important in their values, And how would they react to all the different challenges?   Michael Hingson ** 33:24 What caused you to bring fairies into it again? I think that's pretty imaginative. You were writing about witches of vampire. Fairies are are different. How did that come about?   Tricia Copeland ** 33:34 Honestly, I was at a book event, and a person was walking around with these postcards, and they were trying to get authors to write a short story for an anthology, and it had to be a fantasy genre, and it had to be a character with a mental health challenge. But the image on the postcard was of a fairy, and she was hunched in a meadow in these grasses, and she looked kind of anxious or scared, maybe even a little timid or worried. And I thought, Oh, that's a cool image. It was very striking with the green grass and her fairy wings and just her eyes were like had just a lot of feeling behind them. So it caught my eye. I never thought I'd write about fairies. I was looking for the Army for my witches, and I thought, well, you know, the fairies could be like the characters the witches go to. So it was just kind of happenstance that I happened to see this fairy character on a postcard and think, Huh, I could, you know, the fairies could be the answer.   Michael Hingson ** 34:44 And turns out, they were, they were Yes. So are all fairies girls? No, okay.   Tricia Copeland ** 34:51 I mean, fairies are much like humans in my world, except that my fairies have wings. They in. Middle Earth, which is just below earth. So they share our same bedrock. It kind of mirrors our Earth in my world. And they have rings where they can come back and forth between the fae and the human realm, and they live in our contemporary times. I like those themes of there might be witches, there might be vampires, there might be fairies that walk alongside us every day, and we don't know it.   Michael Hingson ** 35:24 And do they know Bill Bo Baggins, since we're talking about Middle Earth, just   Tricia Copeland ** 35:29 they do, well, they might have read the book. I don't know that they met him personally.   Michael Hingson ** 35:35 Yeah. Well, that's, you know, another, another story, but it's but it's cool. What other kinds of characters are you thinking of for maybe future books, outside of witches, vampires and fairies,   Tricia Copeland ** 35:49 right? So I won't give too much away, but no, in order to perform some of the spells that they need to perform in, I guess in two of my books in this series, to be a Fae legend, which is the third book of the series, and to be a Fae which is the finale, The last book of the series. My witches and fairies need to perform these spells. So they need a great amount of power or energy, and they have to assemble different kinds of beings. And in the finale, they have to assemble 12 different kinds of beings. If you try to make a list of different kinds of being, you actually in ones that the witches and the fairies could find in the human realm, like so I had an elf and the werewolves and nicks and selkies like so the Nicks are shape shifters that shift into fish, and then the selkies are shape shifters that shift into now I'm blanking not walruses seals, sorry. So yeah, I had to go find all these different characters. So all of those characters are in this final book, and I I'm thinking of maybe some of those characters that can form a new series.   Michael Hingson ** 37:11 So are all trolls, mean, nasty creatures, or, do you know yet,   Tricia Copeland ** 37:16 in my series, they are depicted as that? Yes,   Michael Hingson ** 37:21 how about gnomes? I don't have any gnomes. Well, there's another one for you to look at down the line. Might be. It might be interesting to see where that goes. Of course. Yep, so you but you have a variety of characters, and I think it's it's great when you have a rich culture of a lot of different characters. And of course, there are all sorts of potentials for conflict or for different creatures to work learn to work together too,   Tricia Copeland ** 37:56 right? The Fay historically have not worked with other beings or creatures. They very much kept to themselves and had primary purpose. They think their primary purpose is to protect the humans from all the evil spirits. So that has been their focus historically, and they've shunned other groups of beings based on whether they thought they were descended from the Creator, who's sort of like their god or the creator or the evil one, right? So the Fae believed that the vampires and werewolves, for instance, were created by the evil ones, so they shouldn't associate with those types of beings, and there's a lot of learning in there. I guess you could say it, are we going to partner with these beings, and how? What does that look like? And is that really okay? And can we choose a different path than what our predecessors have chosen?   Michael Hingson ** 38:59 And I guess it's sort of pretty clearly, is that they somewhat do that.   Tricia Copeland ** 39:06 Yes, they do. And Titania, our main character, is very much the Herald for that type of behavior and that type of community and that type of acceptance   Michael Hingson ** 39:23 well. So your next year, your book will be out in July, and then where do you go from there?   Tricia Copeland ** 39:31 Yes, so like I said, I'm tossing around ideas for fantasy characters. I also write in the romance genre, so generally, I'll write a fantasy, and then I'll write a romance. I'll switch back and forth between writing those. The past year and a half, I guess I've been focusing on finishing this fantasy series, so I have two romances now queued up that I'm excited about writing, and we'll get to those first. I   Michael Hingson ** 39:58 think, hmm. What romances Have you written already?   Tricia Copeland ** 40:03 So after the being me series, I started the perfect romance series, which the first book was a little bit different from a typical romance. It has five parts, and it's the same main character, but based on decisions at different times in her life, her life goes off in a different way. So you see her go to France and fall in love with the French man, or you see her take a job in New York City and fall in love with a investment banker. And so you see her in different stages of her life, having made different decisions, but still finding happily ever after. So that kind of kicked off that. And somebody, somebody called it speculative romance at one time, and it's more like make your own story or choose your own ending type of book. But from there, I initially thought I would write like a full book showing each of the happily ever afters with that same character, but I wrote one book showing one happily ever after scenario, but then decided that I would look at all of her friends lives so they all met in college, and they were in this one sorority together. And so I write different books showing the different friends love stories. So I've written perfect. Was the first one perfect, always with Chloe. And then Brie book is a close as close to perfect. And this is still set in Lexington, Kentucky. And then the last one is perfect office pack, which is a enemies to lovers, office romance.   Michael Hingson ** 41:51 Now, do you put a lot of sex in your books? I   Tricia Copeland ** 41:54 don't know. My books are what's called closed door or fade to black, so you'll see some kissing, but not much more than that,   Michael Hingson ** 42:03 and that's fine. And the reason I asked that question was to get to the whole issue of so many people when they're writing, just have to make everything so graphic. There's got to be all this sex and all this other stuff that they put in them. And my view has always been, is that really necessary? And I gather you, you're essentially saying the same thing. And again, it's like detective stories. I love to read a lot of detective stories, but I like the detective stories most that are puzzles. That is, I want to figure out who done it. I don't need all the graphics of how somebody got murdered, or what happened. It happens. You don't need to put all that graphic stuff in to get to dealing with the puzzle. And it's the same thing with sex. You really need all that. Like a lot of comedians, it's all the shock stuff. They got to have all these horrible words, swear words, and everything else but the best comedians, I think most people, if they really study it, will agree, are the ones that tell stories without all that dirty and sex stuff in it.   Tricia Copeland ** 43:12 And that's what I like to read and what I like to watch, too. But there are definitely people that enjoy different types of books. Yeah, there are, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 43:21 yeah, I hear you, but I, I would prefer to be able to use my imagination in various things. So one of my favorite detective stories or Characters of All Times is Nero Wolfe, written by Rex Stout, because he he writes in a way where you don't see all the graphic and don't need to see any of the graphic to get the entire picture. He describes enough so you know what's going on, but he doesn't deal with it in a way that would How do I put it? Offend anyone?   Tricia Copeland ** 43:59 Right? And I would probably argue that mystery books are would be the hardest to write, I think, because you have to give enough clues throughout so that the reader doesn't think, Oh, I would have never thought that was the villain, but you don't want to put too much in. So it's so obvious who the villain is, right? So I think it's the ways those authors weave those stories are very intricate and thought out and multi layered and impressive to me   Michael Hingson ** 44:34 well. And the reality is that sometimes, and again, I'll use Rex Stout as an example, when you find out who did it, or who the bad person was, and Wolf explains it clearly, all the clues were there, but it would be really hard for you to put it together. Now, there have been a few times where there were things that he didn't tell you, that if you if he had said those. Because during the book, you might have figured it out, but mostly the clues are somewhat there, but it is so subtle that I doubt very many people would figure it out, which   Tricia Copeland ** 45:14 is, yeah, definitely.   Michael Hingson ** 45:17 It makes it so much fun. When that happens, it is. So you're, you're still deciding what you want to do for your next series of books, or what, what the next realm will be, if you will,   Tricia Copeland ** 45:31 in the fantasy genre, yes, I'm still deciding which way to go with my next characters.   Michael Hingson ** 45:38 Yes, right, but you're going to probably do some romances before you go into those. I   Tricia Copeland ** 45:43 am, yes, I was just writing a newsletter to my subscribers. In the last book, I had subscribers pick names for my characters. And so in this book, I thought, You know what? I don't like this character has has only been introduced and very briefly in one of the books, and so she doesn't have a lot of backstory. And I thought, You know what, I can just ask my readers, where do you think she should live? What are her hobbies? What does she like to do? What's her favorite book genre? I thought that would be a lot of fun for my readers to direct some of that.   Michael Hingson ** 46:18 And what kind of answers did you get? Did you get a lot of feedback?   Tricia Copeland ** 46:22 Like I said, I Well, with the names one when? So I'm just sent out the poll today, new one, but for the name ones, yeah, I would. I got like 100 answers. And then I thought, you know, next time, I won't do the names, because sometimes names are so personal and can vote like a lot of emotion that people get very heated about people's names.   Michael Hingson ** 46:47 Now, do mostly women answer? Do you get both sexes answering your questions? It is   Tricia Copeland ** 46:52 mostly women, but definitely, maybe 10% male, I would think. And actually, I feel like I have more interaction, and that's mostly on the fantasy side, but I feel like I actually have sometimes more interaction. Maybe, I don't know, maybe this get more passionate about fantasy?   Michael Hingson ** 47:13 Yeah, probably so. But you know, there's, there's something to be said for reading a good romance book. I like cozy mysteries as well, and a lot of those are really combinations of mysteries and romance, and the mystery part is oftentimes more straightforward, but it's just the whole book and the putting the entire book together that makes it so much fun.   Tricia Copeland ** 47:41 Yeah, those can be a quick, you know, kind of feel good read. I yeah for that genre, yeah, and   Michael Hingson ** 47:49 there's nothing wrong with that. It's good to have feel good books occasionally,   Tricia Copeland ** 47:54 too. I am all for feel good everything, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 47:58 Well, when I travel, I like to read on airplanes, and I like not to work and do reading that's really related to work, because going and coming from events is really the time that I get to have the most down time once I get somewhere I am on until I am on the airplane coming home. And so it is the way to relax. So I enjoy reading things that will allow me to relax when I'm going and coming from trips or from events, which is so important, I think, to be able to do and I think people should do more of that. It's always worth slowing down some and really letting your mind just wander.   Tricia Copeland ** 48:38 Yeah, plane trips are my favorite, because that's I do the same thing. I read on the plane, and I listen to audio books mostly if I'm home, when I'm exercising or when I'm doing chores. But to be able to sit down and read doesn't happen that often.   Michael Hingson ** 48:56 What do you like to read most from audio books? What? What genre?   Tricia Copeland ** 48:59 Um, exactly what I write, fantasy and romance.   Michael Hingson ** 49:03 What's your favorite fantasy books   Tricia Copeland ** 49:06 I just finished, and I'm so behind because I don't read fantasy when I'm writing fantasy. So I just finished Holly Black's, the folk of the air series, the cruel prince, I think the cool prince, the wicked king and the queen of nothing. I think they're the three books in that series. So that was really good series. And I'm writing Emily's wild encyclopedia fairies right now. So I just started that get   Michael Hingson ** 49:33 a little bit more information on those fairies for a future book. Right? That's that's kind of important to do. So do you produce with I've asked a number of people this, and I'll ask you, do you arrange for audio books to be produced from your series?   Tricia Copeland ** 49:53 I do both my fantasy series, The Kingdom journals, as well as the realm Chronicles. I have audio books. Four. I'm a little bit behind in the realm Chronicles. My Narrator had some health problems, so I'm switching narrators. But my new narrator, Tina walls, wolsen craft, yes, I think that's how you pronounce her last name, she will be working on the fourth book in the realm Chronicles series in September. So I'm hoping that will come out in October, and that will be my, my eighth audio book.   Michael Hingson ** 50:23 And where can people get the audio books?   Tricia Copeland ** 50:26 So the kingdom Journal series is on all platforms, and then the realm chronicle series, the newest series, is on Audible. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 50:37 so and again under your name for the author?   Tricia Copeland ** 50:42 Yep. Tricia Copeland, author, the Kingdom Journal series. The first two books are female character, so and now I'm blank. I can't believe I'm blanking on her name. It'll come to me in a minute. Yeah. So I had a female narrator for the first two books, and then the second two books are male Lee main characters. So Dan Delgado did the narration on those and then Jillian Yetter, who was the most amazing narrator for Titania. She even had pink hair, just just like Titania does, a hold of the the cover of the book has Titania is pink hair. So that was really fun to work with her, and we won an award for the second book in that series, to be a fake guardian   Michael Hingson ** 51:26 in audio book. Oh, cool. What was the award? It   Tricia Copeland ** 51:29 was independent book publisher Association, young adult fantasy, Silver Award.   Michael Hingson ** 51:35 Oh, cool. That's exciting. It's always good to have awards. Have you run other awards along the way?   Tricia Copeland ** 51:40 I have several Colorado independent book Publishers Association for the first book, kingdom of embers, in the kingdom Journal series, as well as several the global Book Awards for to remember it to be, to be a fake queen, which is the first book in the kingdom journals and as Ray at my Aztec mythology.   Michael Hingson ** 52:06 So how many books have you written all together?   Speaker 1 ** 52:08 Next month's book will be 23 Wow.   Michael Hingson ** 52:13 That is really exciting. Well, I know we're putting in the show notes, the picture of the book cover for the next book. And as I mentioned earlier, if you want to send us other books that you think people ought to read, we'll put those pictures in the the notes as well. I'm glad to have all the pictures you want to share.   Tricia Copeland ** 52:31 I will definitely share them. Thank you. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 52:34 so is there anything else you'd like all of our listeners and viewers to know or to think about going forward,   Tricia Copeland ** 52:42 right? Well, if you go to my website, which is triciacopeland.com,   Michael Hingson ** 52:47 and Tricia is T, R, i, c, I A, Copeland, C, O, P, E, L,   52:53 a n, d, l, a n, d.com.com,   Tricia Copeland ** 52:56 yes, if you go there, and if you just want to get a trial of my books. If you subscribe to my newsletter, then you can read a free short story fantasy as well as a free short story romance.   Michael Hingson ** 53:07 Oh, okay. If people want to reach out to you, what's the best way to do that,   Tricia Copeland ** 53:13 they can reach out on direct message, on social media, or my email is Tricia T, R, i, c, I a@triciacopeland.com   53:21 too. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 53:24 then people can, can reach out and and they'll, I'm sure, have all sorts of ideas for you.   Tricia Copeland ** 53:31 I love ideas, and I love talking to readers about my books.   Michael Hingson ** 53:36 Yeah, I I've written three, and I love getting comments and feedback from people, because I get new ideas and new thoughts. And mine are really all about helping to inspire people and so on. So it's it's always good when people have their their observations, whatever they are.   54:01 I agree.   Michael Hingson ** 54:03 Well, anyway, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and I really value your time being here, and I hope people will reach out and and also, more important, get your books and read your books and review them. One of the most important things that all of us who are authors will tell anyone is, please review the books. Please go to places like Amazon and Reddit and so on and review the books, because those reviews are are viewed and paid attention to by so many people. So giving an author, a great review is always a wonderful thing to do.   Tricia Copeland ** 54:44 We do appreciate those and thank you so much, Michael for having me.   Michael Hingson ** 54:48 Well, it was my pleasure, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching today. We really appreciate it. If you've got any thoughts, I'd love to hear from you, please email me at Michael H i. M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I, at access, A, B, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, but also go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hinkson.com/podcast, you can see all of our podcasts there, but they're also available wherever you're listening to podcasts and and you can find the most anywhere podcasts are available. If you know anyone who ought to be a guest that you think would make a wonderful guest, and you'd like to have them tell their stories and Tricia you as well, I would really appreciate you introducing us, because we're always looking for more people to have on the podcast, and so please don't hesitate to reach out and don't hesitate to provide introductions, but again, give us a five star review here on unstoppable mindset. We value your reviews greatly, and we really appreciate you doing it. So I want to thank you, Tricia again, for being here. This has been fun, and I think it's really important that people do get a great sense of what you're doing, and I think we've done that, and we're really anxious to see where you go from here.   Tricia Copeland ** 56:08 Thank you so much, Michael, I so appreciate it.   Michael Hingson ** 56:15 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

AI wearables have been an emerging industry for the blind and visually impaired. While there are a number of options, not all are designed using the input of the blind. With direct feedback from blind users, EchoVision Glasses have been shaped by well-respected leaders in America's blindness organizations such as NFB and ACB, icons such as Stevie Wonder, and a wide variety of potential users spanning our community.   Kevin Chao returns to the virtual studio after connecting with Simon Bonenfant at the 2025 National Convention of the National Federation of the Blind to discuss how Agiga was founded, spotlight some of EchoVision's unique elements and demo several exciting features on the horizon.   From the Agiga Website: “Empowering Independence, One View at a Time. EchoVision isn't just another smart glasses—it's a gateway to independence, knowledge, and boundless possibilities. Designed with the blind, for the blind, EchoVision empowers individuals to access visual information effortlessly and live life hands-free.” To learn more and pre-order your glasses, visit the Agiga website. To contact Agiga directly, call them at (408) 940-5215 or email them at contact@agiga.ai   Like them on Facebook, subscribe to their YouTube channel. To connect with the Agiga community join their Google Group, and Facebook Group.   We hope you have enjoyed this interview. If you would like to learn more and contact us, you can follow us on Twitter @Blind Abilities On the web at www.blindabilities.com Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store and Google Play Store Give us a call and leave us some feedback at 612-367-6093. We would love to hear from you! Check out the Blind Abilities Community on Facebook, the Blind Abilities Page and Career Resources for the Blind and Visually Impaired group. To contact Simon directly, send him an email at sbonenfant2@gmail.com  

In episode 142 of White Canes Connect, Lisa Bryant takes the lead to interview co-host David Goldstein and NFB of PA President Lynn Heitz about our experiences at the 2025 NFB National Convention in New Orleans. We share highlights from Pennsylvania's strong showing — 56 attendees, 10 first-timers, four national scholarship finalists, and a Jernigan Leadership graduate. Lynn and David reflect on the energy of the general sessions, memorable speeches, and some lively debates during resolutions. We also talk about the bustling — and slightly oddly laid-out — exhibit hall, where Pennsylvania sold out of chocolate-covered pretzels. From the opening ceremony's brass band and very cool Whozit beads to reconnecting with Federation friends and meeting new ones, the week was packed with learning, networking, and a few surprises — including a fire alarm that cleared the ballroom mid-vote. We also touch on standout presentations on AI, Social Security, and blindness research, plus the banquet speech from President Mark Riccobono. You'll also hear reflections from first-time attendees Denise, Clarence, and Parri, each sharing their most memorable convention moments. Whether you were there or not, this episode captures the energy, camaraderie, and purpose that make national convention such a powerful experience. Show notes at https://www.whitecanesconnect.com/142    NFB of PA State Convention Registration is Open Registration is now open for the 2025 NFB of PA State Convention in Harrisburg from November 13 to November 16 at the Best Western Premier! Learn more at https://www.nfbofpa.org/state-convention/. Go directly to the registration form at https://www.nfbofpa.org/register/. An Easy Way to Help the NFB of PA Support the NFB of PA with every purchase at White Cane Coffee Company by going to https://www.whitecanecoffee.com/ref/nfbp. When you use that link to purchase from White Cane Coffee, the NFB of PA earns a 10% commission! Share the link with your family and friends! Listen to Erin and Bob Willman from White Cane Coffee on episode 072 of White Canes Connect. Donate to the NFB of PA Like what you hear on White Canes Connect? Support us and donate to the National Federation of the Blind of Pennsylvania, visit https://www.NFBofPA.org/give/. We Want to Hear Your Story Reach out with questions and comments, or share ideas! We want to hear from you. Call us at (267) 338-4495 or at whitecanesconnect@gmail.com. Follow White Canes Connect Find out why White Canes Connect is currently ranked at #13 of the 100 Best Visually Impaired Podcast. Find the show on: Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/white-canes-connect/id1592248709  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1YDQSJqpoteGb1UMPwRSuI  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@pablindpodcast  Visit our website at https://www.whitecanesconnect.com/.

In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset we get to experience a story of a man who demonstrates what real unstopability is really all about. I hope you will be inspired and that you will learn some good life lessons from what you will hear. Our guest, Kijuan Amey grew up around Durham North Carolina. After completing high school, rather than going to college, circumstances brought him to an Airforce recruiter. He scored quite high on his tests which resulted in his recruiter showing him a list of jobs including working as an in-flight refueling expert. The job was demanding, and it requires significant intelligence. After pondering and speaking with the recruiter Kijuan signed up for the job and spent the next 6 and a half years refueling aircraft in flight.   In May of 2017 Kijuan was struck by a motorcycle and suffered a significant number of major injuries. Of course, his career as a refueling expert ended. He actually spent the next 3 and a half years healing and eventually deciding to move on with his life.   Kijuan describes himself as someone who always likes getting answers and moving forward. This he did as you will discover. You will hear the story of Kijuan Amey in detail. Today he teaches and he is a coach. He also wrote and published a book. What I haven't told you to this point is that one of the things that happened to Kijuan as a result of his injuries is that he lost his eyesight. As he will tell you, however, “I may have lost my sight, but I have not lost my vision”. Kijuan today is a keynote speaker talking to many audiences and helping people to discover how they can move forward with their lives no matter what befalls them.     About the Guest:   Kijuan Amey, the visionary behind Amey Motivation, hails from Durham, NC, where his journey of resilience and success began. After graduating from Southern High School, he dedicated a decade of his life to the US Air Force, achieving the rank of Staff Sergeant as an In-flight Refueling Specialist. Medically retired, he transitioned into academia, earning a degree and founding Amey Motivation LLC. Formerly served as the vice president for the Carolina regional group of the Blinded Veterans Association, Kijuan is also a mentor and ambassador for the Air Force Wounded Warriors program. Beyond his remarkable military career, Kijuan is a man of many talents, boasting over 25 years of drumming expertise, onstage acting, and now, an upcoming bestseller, “Don't Focus on Why Me.” However, life took an unexpected turn on May 5th, 2017, when a motorcycle accident claimed his eyesight. Yet, as Kijuan profoundly states, “I may have lost my sight, but I did not lose my vision.” Now armed with an inspiring story of overcoming adversity, Kijuan has become a motivational force, empowering others to reach their highest potential. Whether addressing a crowd of 1,500 or engaging in one-on-one sessions, Kijuan is well-equipped for any speaking engagement. He's not just a speaker; he's a catalyst for transformation, ready for the task ahead! Contact him at (919) 641-8150 | kijuan@ameymotivation.com | AmeyMotivation.com Ways to connect with Kijuan:   Website: ameymotivation.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kijuan-amey-783889121?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/share/167F8mGMfR/?mibextid=wwXIfr Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kijuanamey?igsh=NmZtNHRqbW1meWNy&utm_source=qr      About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Hi, everyone. I am Michael hingson, and you are listening and or watching our podcast. Unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And for those who may not really understand all of that, we start with inclusion, because if you talk to diversity people, they typically leave out any discussion of disabilities, and today, especially, that gets to be important, because our guest Kijuan, Amey, is blind, and I, of course, as many of you probably know also, am blind, and so we're going to talk about blind, and who knows what else we'll we'll get into all sorts of adventures. There's another thing that Kijuan and I have in common, and he doesn't even really probably know about it, and that is that in my book thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog, and the triumph of trust at Ground Zero, there's a section called guide dog wisdom. And in the section of guide dog wisdom, number two, the main point of that one is, don't let your sight get in the way of your vision. And that was published in Thunder dog anyway, we'll talk about whatever comes along. But Kijuan, I want to welcome you to doing a stoppable mindset, and thanks for being here. We're glad to have you,   Kijuan Amey ** 02:42 Michael, I truly appreciate you allowing me to come on your platform and share my story.   Michael Hingson ** 02:47 Well, no allowance necessary. It is all all about people conversing and telling their stories and why they do what they do, and showing that they're unstoppable, so that we can show everybody else that they're unstoppable as well, or really ought to consider themselves more unstoppable than they think. But anyway, we're glad you're here, and looking forward to having a great conversation with you. Why don't we start by you going back and telling us kind of about the the early years of Kijuan, the early years of Yeah. Let's start with the beginning. You know, you know, like they, they always say you gotta start at the beginning somewhere. So might as well start at the beginning.   Kijuan Amey ** 03:29 Yeah. So back in the 90s, born in Durham, North Carolina, where I was, of course, raised there as well. I don't live too far from there. Now, honestly, I'm only maybe 2530 minutes from there, so I still consider myself right here in it.   Michael Hingson ** 03:48 And of course, having grown up in Durham, you must be a major basketball fan of some sort.   Kijuan Amey ** 03:55 What? Why would you say that there's no basketball around here? What   Michael Hingson ** 03:58 are you talking about? Yes, 25 miles away from you. Yeah, I am definitely a, a   Kijuan Amey ** 04:04 true Understander of the rivalry UNC versus Duke. Okay, oh gosh, and and then I might be from Durham, but I'm actually a UNC fan.   Michael Hingson ** 04:16 I was in Carolina once and Northern Carolina, North Carolina in Durham, several years ago to do a speech. And we came in on a Thursday night, and I got to the hotel was pretty tired, but I thought I would unpack and watch TV. And at the time, there was a show on CBS called without a trace. I kind of like the show, so I turned it on, and at eight o'clock, when without a trace was supposed to come on, there was suddenly an announcement that says that without a trace will not be seen tonight, because we're going to be presenting live the basketball game between North Carolina State and University of. North Carolina to see which one is going to go to the chip college championships. And so if you want to watch without a trace, you can watch it Sunday morning at two in the morning. I wasn't going to do that, but anyway. But anyway. So yeah, the basketball. It runneth hot there, obviously,   Kijuan Amey ** 05:22 yeah, so it's pretty interesting. There is a meme for those who understands what that is, but it's a depiction. There's North Carolina State, Duke and UNC, all standing on top of a mountain, all of the mascots, and North Carolina State says, I'm going to do this one for my team, and they jump off the mountain. And then UNC says, and I'm going to do this one for my team, and then they kick Duke off the mountain.   Michael Hingson ** 05:59 Listen, I'm telling you, man, it is serious around I know it is really serious. It's so serious. So, yeah,   Kijuan Amey ** 06:05 no, I grew up in a UNC household, um, grandmother, mother, I mean, dad, hey, listen, if you they even worked at Duke and still were UNC fans. It's just the way it was, you know, and it's hard to when you grew up in it was hard to go against, you know, Unc, when they have such a amazing teams with Michael Jordan, Antoine Jameson, all these guys that came through there, you just like, gosh, these guys were really great. And so it's just one of those things. But, you know, kind of growing up with that lifestyle, you had the two games during the season, and you you hope they met in the in the in the ACC tournament, right? Because you wanted to see if there could be a clean sweep, well. And so this past year, Duke got to sleep. They rightfully, rightfully so, because their star player is going to be drafted number one this year. So they rightfully got it   Michael Hingson ** 07:12 another year. I was in brether County, Kentucky to do a speech, and it was the day of the NCAA championship. So one of the two teams was the what Wildcats of Kentucky, and I forget who the other one was, but I was to do a speech that started at 6pm and I was told it was at a high school. And I was told this speech has to end absolutely latest, at 6:30pm because by 631 the gym will be completely closed and and everyone will be gone because everyone wants to go home and see the Wildcats. Well, I did the speech. I ended it at 630 and everyone was gone. By 631 they were flooding out. Boy, I couldn't believe how fast they all got out. I'm   Kijuan Amey ** 08:09 telling you. Man, those, what we call them is blue, blue bloods, yeah, and these are the big, the biggest, you know, college teams that that impact that sport. So for basketball, of course, you got your UNC, your Duke, your Kentucky, your Kansas, those types of teams, you know. And football we already know is kind of shifting a little bit, but hey, it's just the way it is with all this nio money now. So yeah, and that's kind of what's going on nowadays. You got to have some money. And the difference between UNC and Duke, one's a private school and one's public. There you go. Well, so tell us. So tell us more about you. Yes. So me, besides me being a Tar Heel fan, I personally, you know, went after high school, graduated from Southern High School here in Durham, and then went on to the United States Air Force. I actually was going to consider going to North Carolina State, but it was not to become a fan. It was because they had one of the better engineering programs in the state, and better than UNC, huh? UNC doesn't really offer engineering. They offer computer science. And I didn't want that. And the computer science is kind of boring to me, yeah? And I mean, I'm just being honest, yeah, that's okay. And so I wanted to do either software or computer engineering, and the two best schools in the state were North Carolina State University and North Carolina agriculture and Technical State University, which we shortened for North Carolina A and T. So those two schools are the best here in North Carolina, which actually get a lot of great funding for engineering. Yeah, by the way. So yeah, that was what I was planning on doing, but there were admission hiccups. And so I said, you guys can have your admission hiccups. I already can't afford you. Anyway, I'm gonna take a different route. And so I have a really heavy or, shall I say my family has a really heavy background in the military, and mostly navy. Jeez, maybe seven, I think maybe six or seven Navy members, and then one army, one Marine, one went from the Navy to the Coast Guard. And then you have me, who kicked off the Air Force journey, and then my youngest brother is now carrying that torch, so he's out there in Italy. Man, I'm a little jealous about it. It's okay. I never got to see Italy. It's all right. It's all right. But anyway, I went into the Air Force and became an in flight refueling specialist. So what does that mean? Exactly, yeah, yeah. That's what I was getting into. I can't just say it without not telling so what that means is, I do refill aircraft, but I do it in the sky. It's basically like airplanes pulling up to a flying gas station,   Michael Hingson ** 11:28 which can be very tricky, tricky.   Kijuan Amey ** 11:30 That's a That's an understatement of the year. It's dangerous the first so when I was going through school, the first warning that they had in the book says flying two planes in close proximity is inherently dangerous. You think there's no way that's possible. No couldn't be Who are they telling this to? Like, man, it's almost like a five year or five year old needed to read that or something. So I'm just like, okay, the way to scare me. Appreciate it. And anywho I did that job for on paper, 10 years, three months and 17 days. That's how long the military counted. I Yeah, say, six and a half   Michael Hingson ** 12:22 years now. Why did you decide to do that, to go into the military? No to to become an in flight? Oh,   Kijuan Amey ** 12:31 that's because, well, first, yeah, yeah, you're right. That's a good question, because I had no clue that even existed. Didn't even know until my recruiter showed me, because I scored so high on the ASVAB, he said, I gotta show you something. And I was like, Okay, what is it? And so, you know, when you're going into the military, you're kind of skeptical about them trying to sell you a dream. And you know, so I'm like, and again, I have plenty of military families, so they're all telling me about this. They're like, don't let them sell you no dream. Make sure you pick a job before you go to basic training, because you don't want to go in open general and all this stuff. I said, okay, cool. Well, when he shows me that video, I start giggling. I said, Okay, all right. And he's like, what? I'm like, yeah, that's pretty cool. But what's the actual job you're going to show me? And he's like, this is the job as it that looks like a video game, man. He's like, he was like, I know it's crazy, but you qualify for it   Michael Hingson ** 13:40 now. What, what, what characteristic did you have, or what was the scoring on the test that made you qualify for that?   Kijuan Amey ** 13:49 I don't know what the exact cutoff is, but I score an 87 on my ASVAB out of 100 so that's that's high. Um, you needed a 50 to get into the Air Force. And I scored the 87 and he was so happy and elated. He called me as soon as he got my score. Not like, waited a day or two, no, he called me as soon as he saw the opening of the email. And he was like, When can you come in? That's all he said to me. He didn't say nothing else on the phone. And I was like, um, I could be there tomorrow. He was like, I'll be here. I said, okay, but anyway, that's literally how excited he was. He didn't even tell me why until I got there, so I had no clue, until the day I arrived in his office, and he was, he pulled out this stack of papers that he had stapled together, which was a was jobs, listing of jobs. And it was like eight pages, front and back, listings. And I'm like, Okay, what is this? And then I get close to it, I read. And I'm like, Oh, these are jobs. He's like, Yeah. He's like, go ahead. You flip through him, if you like. And I'm flipping through he's already started highlighting some and I knew there was something I wasn't gonna do. I mean, there was one of them that wasn't highlighted that I thought I wanted to do, which I'm glad I didn't, because I told it basically been me working on, like, Humvees and trucks and stuff. And he was like, You are way too smart for that. I said, okay, but that's what I know. That's what I just came out of high school doing, you know, because I went to a high school that had vocational trades and stuff. So I loved cars, I still do, and worked on mine until, literally, I couldn't see anymore, and so, you know, slowly becoming a lost trait. But hey, somebody's got to do it anyway. Yeah, that's how I got into that job. He showed it to me on a computer screen, and I was like, What the heck he's like, I've never, I said I'd never seen this before. He's like, you're not gonna see it as a civilian, because only the military does.   Michael Hingson ** 16:09 So why is it the military essentially said you did it six and a half years and you said you did it as 10.   Kijuan Amey ** 16:14 No, opposite. I said I did it six and a half. Oh, okay, rather, okay, 10, right? Because that was the day they retired me, the six and a half is the day I had my injury, and I never showed back up to work. Basically, what was your injury? My injury was a motorcycle accident where a car pulled out in front of okay, yeah, yeah. Sustained my eyes, my eyesight loss, traumatic brain injury, PTSD, spinal cord injury, broken, both legs, everything. What do you want to know? The only thing that didn't get, I guess you say, didn't have a surgery on was my arms   Michael Hingson ** 16:55 got it, but they, but they kept you in essentially, well, you were, you were in the military, so you stayed in while you were healing, or what?   Kijuan Amey ** 17:06 Yeah, so it, what happened was the reason it took so long, nobody really knew what to do with me and I, and I'll get you to why, or an understanding of why. So I did four years active, but now, at the time of my accident, I'm a reservist. I'm not active duty anymore. So fortunately for me, I was on an active duty, or in an active status, is what we call it, in the reserves, because I was in a travel status that day of my accident because I had to work that weekend, and on the day, which was May 5, 2017 that was my travel day. Okay, thankfully, because had it been may 4, 2017 I wouldn't have any of this, literally just one day. Wow. And so they were trying to figure out how to process me. They didn't know what to keep me, to let me go, to drop me off a cliff, like they didn't know what to do. And so as we were trying to file every piece of paper known to the what do you call it? DOD, Department of Defense. We had no clue what to do. Medical didn't know what to do. My leadership didn't know what to do. I definitely didn't know what to do. I mean, I never dealt with an injury, you know, or seen anybody deal with an injury, especially as substantial as mine. Yeah, of course, you were in the hospital. Well, even after getting out of hospital, you know, we were still dealing with this the whole entire time until I got retired, you know, up until the point where they eventually put me, it's kind of like they were trying to out process me with an honorable discharge, but they saw that he has an injury, so we need to get him some, you know, stuff done, and then he put me on a casualty report, and which means, you know, I was very badly injured. That's basically all that means. And that put me on a another piece of or or track, shall I say, which got me connected to a headquarters in Randolph Air Force Base in San Antonio, which is the Air Force Wounded Warriors Program. Now, when they saw my name pop up on the casualty report, they called me, and I'll never forget Connie Sanchez's voice, because I was like, What the heck is this? But she said, Hi, I'm Connie Sanchez calling from the Air Force winter Warriors Program, and I was trying to reach a key one Amy. And I'm like, You're who from where, because I had never heard of a program. Mm, hmm. So are you trying to in today's society, the scams that go on, you know? Yeah, I don't know what's going on. Who you? Who are you from? Where I'm I've been been in the Air Force for a while now. I've never heard of an Air Force. When the Warriors program, what are we talking about here, you know? And so she's doing her best to explain it to me and keep me from from being skeptical, as she says, I saw you pop up on a casualty report list, and we help airmen who have been wounded, ill or injured, you know, and and I said, Okay, well, what do you what are we we talking about? Like, what are mean you supposed to be talking about? She's like, Oh, I'm gonna help you get medically retired. I say, you gonna help me who? These are the words I've been looking for. You know, you gonna help me do what? Oh, I'm gonna help you get medically retired. I said, Where have you been for the last three years? And so anyway, that's how that whole thing got started. The ball started getting rolled to get   Michael Hingson ** 21:14 rolling so you were injured in 2017 Yeah. What was your attitude like after the injury? How? How did you move forward, or what? What were you thinking? Was it? Were you? Were you just totally devastated? Did you think you're going to just off yourself, or what?   Kijuan Amey ** 21:38 Well, let me preface by saying this, I told you I had a traumatic brain injury. The damage to my brain is most severe in the frontal lobe. The frontal lobe houses a lot of emotions, and so yes, there was devastation, yes, there was sadness. Yes, there was, well, what am I going to do now? Yes, there was anxiety, there was anything you can think of anger because of the guy who hit me or pulled out in front of me. Shall I say? You know, there was so much that was going on at one time, because, you know, I'm stuck in the hospital for, oh, by the way, I was at UNC hospital. Okay, so that's pretty cool. Uh, that I'm a Tar Heel Fanning and I got, you know, Life Flight of the UNC hospital. But back to what I was saying, there's so much that was going on that one time, because I'm stuck at a hospital for two months now, granted, the first month I know nothing about. I was in a medically induced coma for the first month, so from May 5 until June the sixth. Don't ask me any question. You know what? I mean, I literally know nothing, because that's when I came to I came out of my medically induced coma, and so I'm just trying to figure out where I am. I cannot see already, like my vision was already gone. This is not a gradual loss, as some might think or might be wondering. I could not talk at the time because my jaw had been broken, so they wired it shut to keep me from damaging it any further then I didn't realize it yet, but I also could not smell, and the reason I didn't realize it is because I could breathe just fine. The only time I noticed I couldn't smell is when some is when somebody said, Man, you smell that? It smelled good? No, no, I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about. What What smells good, you know? Or if I you know, yeah, something smell bad. I don't smell it. What are you talking about? And so anywho, um, all of these different things are going through my mind, and even after I was told what happened to me, because I, of course, don't remember. I have no recollection of the accident. So after they told me what happened now, I am sitting there with these thoughts in my head for basically, I don't know, 12 hours because I stopped talking or communicating with anyone after that, and I just wanted to be alone. Because, as the saying goes, I just got hit with a ton of bricks. Yeah, you know, so I'm literally going through all the emotions, the sadness, the net, the potential, thought of never being able to see again, never being able to fly again, refill again, see my, my girlfriend, see my, my nieces, nephews, a family, uncle, anything possible. My, I don't even have kids. I never get to see them, you know. So it's. It was one of those things. And I, I mean, I took a lot of pride in the things that I saw, because it was things that a lot of people would never see. And this is also why, you know, on some of my social media, when I did do air refuelings and things of that nature, or or went to really nice locations, or even some that weren't so nice. I would take pictures and post it, because some people will never get to see this. Yeah, so I want you to live vicariously if you want to say it through me, they're like, man, that's cool. That video, that was awesome. You you did the other day. Hey, I appreciate it, man. Hey, it's my job, you know? It's just what it is. It's all part of the   Michael Hingson ** 25:49 game, you know. And all that was taken away   Kijuan Amey ** 25:53 Exactly. And so when I tell you I used to have and I wouldn't even be sleep, I would be daydreaming, and could see so vividly, like airplanes that I used to refuel, like the F 22 Raptor, the C 17, you know, it's it's things like that. The views I used to have looking down at the ocean from 20,000 feet in the air, looking down at the coastline, flying over the North Carolina and Virginia border, where you can see literally go from land to water to land, because there is a tunnel that goes underneath the water for ships to pass over, I could literally see that stuff from the air and to now go from not seeing that ever again, the thoughts that you sit with were just like beating me up alive. And so I finally had to come out of crazy mode, because that's what it makes you do. It makes you go crazy when you do think about all these thoughts. I had to come out of that mode, because if I didn't, I probably would have really went crazy. And I finally started asking all the questions to get answers, instead of trying to formulate my own questions that I had no answers to. And so that is what you know, got me the information and how the accident happened, where I was, where I was coming from. I do remember the day that I had before that, like not not may 4, but like what I was doing before I had the accident. I do remember all of that, but the thing is, when it came up to the accident, I don't know nothing about it, it's like it completely erased that entire moment. And that's a protective mode that your neurological system does for your brain. So it's so, it's so. It's so empowering that your your mind, can do something like that. But it's also a benefit, because I would never, I do not want to relive that dream or that nightmare, shall I say, over and over. Right?   Michael Hingson ** 28:22 But you made the choice to move on, to get out of the crazy mode. What? What caused you to do that? Just you decided enough was enough, and it's time to move on, or what?   Kijuan Amey ** 28:39 No, I'm a man of answers. I need answers so. So when I think the military kind of did that to me too, but I've always been that guy who asked questions to you, even when I was younger, I was at, man, will you just sit down and we'll get to it, you know? So the military made it worse, because I became an instructor, and as an instructor, you tend to ask questions, so you can see what the person is thinking, how they're thinking, you know, making sure they're processing the information correctly. And so I am now doing that to everybody. I've put my instructor hat back on, and I'm going to asking questions that I need to know the answers   Michael Hingson ** 29:21 to so, how long after the accident, did you start doing this?   Kijuan Amey ** 29:25 Oh, no, this was a Maybe the day after I woke up from my medically induced coma. Okay, so, so the day I was informed of the accident, which was June the sixth, when I woke up out of my medically induced coma because I hate the panic button, basically not being a receipt or talk, you know what I mean? So, so I needed to figure something out, and that's when I asked the question, Well, what happened to me? Or what is the question I asked was, What? What is this motorcycle accident dream you guys are talking about? Because somebody, it was just people in my room talking, right? And they were like, Oh no, that's not a dream. That's what happened to you. And that was when I went into that shutdown period. And how long were you in that period? That was, that was the like, 12 to 16 hours or so that I didn't talk okay? And so the next day, June the seventh, is when I was like, hey, hey, I need to find something now. And that's what happened to me. What really happened?   Michael Hingson ** 30:30 So when that occurred? So now, on the seventh of June, did you just basically decide fairly quickly you got to move beyond from this, or did? Was it devastating for a while?   Kijuan Amey ** 30:44 Yeah, no, that's when the devastation and stuff really kicked in, because it made me say, What the heck, man, like, you know, somebody did this to me, you know, and I can't get back, none of that stuff. Yeah, that was taken away from me. I have all these different parts inside of me. I got metal plates in my head, screw rods and screws in my back, rods in both legs, a screw in my foot, like I even have two different sized feet now.   Michael Hingson ** 31:16 So how long was it before you started to decide you gotta go off and do something else with your life, and you're not gonna just let all of this rule you   Kijuan Amey ** 31:28 let's see when, when did that kind of transfer that it took me a little while, because I had to get acclimated to the new right life, you know, at first. So I think that would be around maybe I know I went on my first plane ride as a visually impaired person in 2018 So December of 2018 I went to my first blind rehab center. Where was that? In Tucson, Arizona. Okay, okay. The one for the V The VA has a couple of them. I can't remember how many it is, but that was the one I went to, because that was the first one to accept. I didn't want to go to the one that was closest to me. I've been to Georgia. It's okay. I wanted to go somewhere I haven't been, you know what I mean? And not no no shot at Georgia. I just wanted to go somewhere different, you know, yeah, and so that's what I did. And at first I wanted to go to Mississippi, but they took way too long to respond. And so anywho, I'm trying to get this done today, not next year, you know. And so I went there from December of 2018 until February of 2019 okay, I'm a pretty fast learner, and everything, when you go to those to the VA blind rehab centers, is at your own pace. You're fully embedded like you know, you're there the whole time. You got a room, you got everything, so they fully submerge you into this program, and you leave when you're ready. And so it only took me, and it wasn't even a full two months, is but, but I say two months because December to February, but anyway, I learned what I needed to learn, and I got out of there. I even learned stuff that I didn't know I wanted to learn, like copper tooling, wood working, you know, what's the other one? What's the leather? What's when you do leather? Yeah, but yeah, I I've even done stuff with leather, and that's so cool. It's pretty cool to do that stuff, but, yeah, I did all of that stuff, man. It's amazing. And, you know, come back home to show everybody what I learned, and they're like, Wow, you're like, a whole nother person. I said, Well, you know, I did pick up few things. And so once I got that under my belt, you know, the ability to know how to navigate, I still was not, like, really stable, because I hadn't. I hadn't, I didn't start lifting weights, or, you know, doing any like physical training, training, like legitimate training, until right before the pandemic, I was going to the YMCA and swimming, because, as we know, swimming is a full body workout, and so I was hitting the lap pool with a recreational therapist. And so what, man, that was the worst when that pandemic hit in March of 2020, yeah, because, trust me, I'll never forget it. That was when everything was looking up for me. I was like, Oh, this is so amazing. I'm I'm getting stronger, you know? I'm able to move a little bit better, get more confident in my life. And then, bam, shut everything down. I said, What? We can't go out. Wait. Everything's closed. Oh, okay, it'll only be two weeks. Oh, okay, that's okay. I could wait for two weeks. That's not that bad, yeah, but it'll be another month. Well, you said three months, six months, okay, I don't like this. So yeah, that's when everything started to come down. But then it went back up in 2021   Michael Hingson ** 35:25 Yeah, later in 2021 it started to lift   Kijuan Amey ** 35:28 Well, I mean, for me, for me in 2021 it was when I started actually working out by actually lifting weights again.   Michael Hingson ** 35:38 Now, were you still in the military? Swimming? Were you still in the military at this time I   Kijuan Amey ** 35:43 retired? Or was literally, uh, like, officially, medically retired, June 3, 2021, but again, I had not been to work since May. No, I understand 17, you know. So there's nothing that I'm doing at work. And when I did go down there, it was just kind of the just kind of a visit and hang out with those guys for the day.   Michael Hingson ** 36:07 You mean, they wouldn't give you a long cane and let you go ahead and continue to refuel aircraft, because you could just find the the appropriate place with the cane. They   Kijuan Amey ** 36:15 they would have had to switch it to the left hand, because I'm left handed, and they and they make you do that with the right hand, that refueling side, I'm way better with my left hand. Well, but hey, I would have gave it a shot, but, but   Michael Hingson ** 36:29 you don't move, yeah, but you, but you, but you had to make along the way the decision that you were going to move forward, which is what it sounds like you, you were doing. And certainly by June of 2021, when you retired and and so on, you made the decision that you were going to do your best to continue to to advance and do something else with your world. Oh   Kijuan Amey ** 37:00 yeah, yeah, no. I mean, the pandemic actually was a part of good and bad. I mean, yes, it made me upset because they kept pushing the timeline and stuff back. But October of 2020, that's when I started writing my book. So that was in the pandemic. I started writing my book. You know, I learned how to use a computer again in September. And then once I got that down pack, hey, I'm going to the next thing. What's the title of the book? Don't focus on why me. From motorcycle accident to miracle. Got it Okay, so that's the name of it. Yeah, that's the name of it. And, excuse me, like I said, I wrote the book, or started writing the book October 2020, but I wanted to publish it in May of 2021, because of the accident. You know, the accident was in May. I wanted to publish the book in May. Well, it didn't quite happen like that, because timelines get pushed back, because you got to get an editor, you got to get a book formatter, you got to get it covered. Oh, it was taking a long time. And so anywho, it got published in June of 2021, which is my entire retirement month. So I was okay with it. I retired and I published a book, a self published, by the way, a book in June of 2021, which is a big month for me, so I celebrate both good   Michael Hingson ** 38:32 so you did that, yep. And were you? So you got retired in June. And when, what did you decide to do? Or when did you decide to find work?   Kijuan Amey ** 38:47 Well, I don't, I don't really consider what I do work, and I'll tell you why, so as we will from what you're about to find out, I am the proud founder, and I call myself a chief motivational officer, not a CEO of Amey motivation. Now Amey motivation, I do keynote speaking motivationally based most of the time, and then I also am a trusted mentor and a resilience coach. So I don't feel like I'm working. I feel like I'm actually doing a service and giving back, right? I'm sorry, go ahead. No, I agree with you when I'm when I when I said a job, I kind of put it in air quotes, but anyway, I got you, but yeah, no, that's how I feel in my, you know, giving back. Because I almost feel like this is a type of ministry, a type of healing, a type of journey that not only benefits me, but benefits others. And it doesn't even feel like I'm working when I do this stuff. It just feels like I'm having a conversation. It feels like I'm building. It feels like I'm helping others, you know. And I. I couldn't even dare say that I feel like I'm working, and it's not even because I'm making good money. It's not because people are paying me, it's not because I travel to do this. It's because I really just don't feel like this is work, sure. Now, when I was in the military, that was work, you know, that felt like work. But this really does not. It's enjoyable, you know, and that's the beauty of it. And I love what I do.   Michael Hingson ** 40:34 But when did you decide to start motivating people?   Kijuan Amey ** 40:38 Well, that started back before the pandemic, too. And my first speech, like official, big speech, shall I say, anyway, was May of 2019, that's when I came out and told everybody, you know, kind of what, what happened to me, my story. Because, you know, everybody was hearing what happened to me on Facebook. I can't stand when I see a post of something bad happening to somebody on social media. Let me tell my story. And so that's what I did. And the title of that, that, uh, that speaking engagement, was, why not me? And everybody, I'm sure, was like, Wait, what the heck? Why is it called that? And I said, you're gonna have to come in to find out. You know, so anywho I told my story, and I do have a snippet of it on my website, Amy motivation.com   Michael Hingson ** 41:33 and Amy is spelled, a, yeah,   Kijuan Amey ** 41:36 A, M, E, y, right. So, you know, I did tell my story about just being the vulnerable side of what happened to me, how I feel, how I got through it, what I went through, what I was dealing with, you know, and man, when I tell you it was, you could literally hear a pin drop, and we were on carpet. Okay, so it was so quiet in there. Everybody was very attentive. It was a packed house, to say the least. There was not one empty seat, except for behind me, because, no, I didn't want anybody behind me. I wanted everybody to be out front. And so that was the only spot where there was an empty seat. I had people on the right side of me, people on the left side of me, people in front of me, everywhere. And so anywho you know, it was just an amazing speech and an amazing time, because a lot of people there, I knew some people I didn't, but a lot of people there I knew. And after they heard it and came up and talked to me after the speech, they were like, Man, I didn't even know you were going through that. I didn't even know this happened to you. I didn't even know that happened. I said, that's why I had to tell it, because what y'all are hearing on Facebook is partially true, and it's part of the story. It's not the whole story. Let me tell the whole story. So yeah, that's where all that started. I also did before that speech. I also did a couple of talks at high school, local high schools in Durham too. So my high school, Southern high school, my alma mater, another local high school called Jordan High School. So yeah, you know, just different things like that,   Michael Hingson ** 43:31 but you still ultimately were the one that you made the choice to do it. You made the choice to move on, which is so cool, because I can think of any number of people who, if they had the same sorts of things happen to them that happened to you, would give up, and you clearly did not,   Kijuan Amey ** 43:50 absolutely not. I think the hardest part for me is I can't sit down. Yeah, so, so me giving up is basically like me sitting down so and I can't do that. I'm like a person like the Energizer Bunny. As soon as you put a battery anywhere near me, I'm gone   Michael Hingson ** 44:09 well, and it's so much more rewarding to do that, I know for me after the World Trade Center attacks and so on, and we started getting calls asking me to come and talk about September 11 and what people should learn. My wife and I decided that selling life and philosophy was a whole lot more fun and rewarding, which is really probably the biggest issue, rewarding psychologically, was much more rewarding than selling computer hardware and managing a computer hardware sales team, which is what I did. So, yeah, it became also a a path and something that was worth doing. And I agree it, it is. It isn't work, right? Not. Not in the same way, but that is also in part because we've chosen to structure it and make it work that way, that it's not work.   Kijuan Amey ** 45:09 Yeah, yeah. You know what is. By the way, I love your story. I did hear it on another podcast that I listened to, who that I was interviewed by. And so the the so the day of the World Trade Center and the attacks, the plane that I used to fly on the KC 135 was actually the first plane to come check it out. That was the actually the first plane to come report what had happened, because it was one already airborne, nearby, and then when they look, they loop back around, and they were like, wait, the second one's on fire. Yeah. When did that happen? Like it was basically just like that. There was a   Michael Hingson ** 45:52 Air Canada flight. We met, well, I didn't. My wife did. Met the pilot. We were out in San Francisco, and I was doing a presentation, and she told me about it after the speech, but she said she was coming down on the elevator, and there was a pilot from Air Canada, and they got to talking, and she explained why she was there and what what we were doing. And he said that his plane was the first passenger plane over the world trade center after things happened. And as she said, the FBI must be, have become one of your favorite friends, right, or one of your best friends? And he said, Yeah, they sure did. But   Kijuan Amey ** 46:38 I don't want to get that knock,   Michael Hingson ** 46:40 but it's but it is a choice, and yeah, for for us, the other part about it was that the media got the story, and I feel so blessed, ironically, given how everybody likes to abuse reporters in the Media, but I got so many requests for interviews, and clearly it made sense to do what we could to try to educate and help people move on from September 11, so we accepted the interview requests. And for me personally, what I really learned is something, well, I kind of rediscovered and it got reaffirmed, was that, in reality, talking about something that happens to you like that is the most important thing, because talking about it gives you the opportunity to think about it and move on. And I got asked so many different questions by reporters, some intelligent, some not some in the middle. But the bottom line is that by talking to literally hundreds and hundreds of reporters, that made me talk about it, which was a very good blessing by the time all was said and done,   Kijuan Amey ** 47:54 right, right, instead of internalizing, yeah, no, listen, I also have to say, I'm glad you were in some shape, because what it was 78 floors, yeah, golly, hey, I don't want to hear you say 10, you know. But 78 floors,   Michael Hingson ** 48:15 it was going down. So that's pretty good. As I tell people, I do understand, but as I tell people, the next week, for the next week I was starting, actually the next day, I was stiff as a board. The adrenaline ran out. And, oh, it's horrible. And, yeah, you know, my wife was in a wheelchair her whole life, and we were in a two story house we built so there was an elevator. And I swear, for the next week after September 11, I use that elevator a whole lot more than she did.   Kijuan Amey ** 48:43 Ah, that's funny,   Michael Hingson ** 48:46 but, but, you know, it was just kind of the way it was. But it is a choice, yes, and the bottom line is that we we move on you. You certainly had lots of things happen to you. You lost a lot of things. Did you ever get your sense of smell back? Or is it still gone?   Kijuan Amey ** 49:01 No, no. It was damaged during the reconstructive surgery on my face where they had to input the two plates. Yeah. Okay, yeah. So that's where that came from. So now it happened, shall I say? So   Michael Hingson ** 49:13 now getting back to something that we talked about at the very beginning, as you point out, you lost your site, but you didn't lose your vision. So tell me more about that, what that means to you, and why you say that. Because, as I said, that's something that that I've thought and talked about a lot. And of course, when thunder dog was written, we put that into thunder dog. And by the way, if you don't know it, Thunder dog and and all three of my books actually are on on Bard, so you can download them, or you can help a poor, starving author and go buy them, but, but, you know,   Kijuan Amey ** 49:50 come on, I think you will off. Mr. Steve Harvey, No, I'm joking. But anywho. So, as I mentioned before. Four, you know, when I was talking about my business, I don't necessarily feel like I'm working. I feel like I'm helping and and what I mean, the reason I even preface that is because when I say I may have lost my sight, but I didn't lose my vision. Sight, to me, is the physical, the vision is the mental. And so my mental was helping others, and it's always been that way, whether it was me playing sports, I had to help in some way, because I played team sports. Now, did I play any individual? No, I played all team sports. I did bowling, I did football, the basketball and ran track. All of those are team sports. And so you can roll in singles, but at the same sense, some point you're going to be doing either doubles or three or four person teams. So most of the time I was doing teams and doubles. But anyway, I was always doing some kind of helping. I grew up with siblings. I had to help somebody. I, you know, I grew up with without much, so we had to help each other. Hey, you don't know how to cook. Let me show you. You don't know how to fix this in the microwave. Let me show you, you know. And so, um, when I got to the military, I had to help, you know, when I was became an instructor, I was helping teach the people who are coming in new and all these different times I'm helping people. And now I get to a point where, not only I have to help myself get back to where I can have some kind of normalcy of life, but what really is a normal life? You know what I mean? Yeah, I had to help others understand that if I can make it through this, you can make it through what you're dealing with as well, and be there to help you.   Michael Hingson ** 51:57 How about going the other way? Though you needed help too, yeah, yeah. And were you advanced enough in your thinking at the time that you were perfectly willing to accept help as well?   Kijuan Amey ** 52:12 Uh, no, I had my moments. Um, there. There's a chapter in my book I called, uh, it's called the depression set in, and that was when I was at one of my lower points, because not too long after depression, where the suicidal thoughts, the suicidal thoughts, luckily, didn't take me out and I never attempted, because I was able to think my way. I'm a very critical thinker, Problem Solver kind of guy, so I was able to think my way out of even having those thoughts again. And I said, Hey, man, this is not you. I don't know what it is, but it's not you. And so instead of me continuing to have those thoughts, I started asking people questions, what can I do? Because this is not like, it's not working, whatever life is not working for me, right? You know, and I'm a faith believer. So my grandmother, I was living with her at the time, and the first she's a faith believer as well. And the first thing she says is, you know, just pray. You know, just pray about it. I said, Grandma, we pray every day. Hear me clearly. I didn't say, some days we pray every day this obviously, and I'm not saying it's not working, but it needs something more. And so she was, well, I don't know what to tell you. And then eventually she goes in her room and thinks about it for a minute, and she said, Why don't you call your uncle? And I said, You know what? It's not a bad idea. And he, by the way, he's a senior pastor at his church, and so I said, that's not a bad idea. I didn't think to call my pastor because I didn't want to bother him. It's kind of one of those things you just felt like, I don't want him to think about that. I've had it on his mind, you know, stuff like that. And so I called my uncle, and I was telling telling him how I was feeling, and all I heard him say was, hold on key, I'm on the way. It was like eight o'clock at night, so for him to be like, Hey, I'm HOLD ON key, I'm on the way. That's what they call me Ki, my family. Some of them call me kiwi, but some call me Ki. But anyway, just as long as they don't call me late for dinner. And so I was like, Wait, he he's coming over here, you know? So I said, Okay. And I hung up the phone, and my grandma's like, Well, what did he say? I said, he said he's on the way. She's like, he went. I said, Exactly. That's what I said. And so she said, Oh Lord, well, let me put on some clothes. I said, let you put on some clothes. I need to put on some clothes. And. Yeah, and so anyway, we both get dressed somewhat. I wasn't, like, fully dressed. I just put on, like, some, you know, some basketball shorts, a shirt, yeah, you know, stuff like that. Because I'm thinking, we're just going to hang out at the house. He's going to talk to me. He's like, Hey, man, you want to throw on some pants and, you know, go out and put on some shoes. I said, Where we going? It's like, for a ride. I said, Okay, uh, yeah, uh, grandma, and she came back in there, she's like, Yeah, he's like, we're gonna go for a ride. Um, can you get my sweatpants from over this here? Because I knew where everything was in the room, and you know how it is, we know where everything is, where we put stuff. We know exactly where it is, right? And so I knew everything was get my sweat pants from this drawer and get my shirt from that drawer. And I said, No, it's the second drawer, not the third and stuff. So we I get dressed, we go for a ride, and he's talking. No, no, I'm talking first. He let me talk. He said, So key, tell me what's up. I said, I ran through the gambit of what I was going down with me, how I had the depressed thoughts, how I had some suicidal thoughts, but I had to bring myself back out of this, and I just could not figure out why this was coming over me like that. And he was like, Uh huh. And then, you know, I just stopped talking for a while. He said, You know what key I said, What's that? He said, I'm surprised it took you this long. I was like, What do you mean? He was like, Dude, I thought this would have happened to you a long time ago? He said, I've been waiting on this. And I said, that's crazy. Like I'm sitting there thinking, man, what the heck? You know? I'm thinking. People ain't thinking about me. Nobody's like, really, can't they see me smiling, laughing, giggling and all that stuff. So they're probably not even thinking about it, you know. But he was actually prepared. He's prepared for what I call the breakdown. And he said, Keith, I think the best thing you can do, and this is when we pulled over somewhere and start talking. He said, The best thing I think you can do with this situation is you're going to have to embrace and confront the issue. And I said, Can you explain that a little bit more? He's like, Yeah, yeah. He said, what it is, I think, is your the hope that we all have is for you to regain your eyesight. But the real realization is you don't have it right now. So I need you to live like you don't have it and hope that one day you'll get it. So don't keep dwelling on the hope part. Just live like you don't have it, and that way you'll keep moving forward versus thinking you're going to get it, because these thoughts are taking you down. Every day you wake up, every time you wake up from a nap, you think you're gonna open your eyes and see something that's gonna keep bringing you further and further down. I need you to embrace this thing and don't live in the denial phase of it happening. And that was when I started to come out like that was when I really started to gain some strength and a stronger mindset. Very wise words, oh, yeah, no, these are all he is, trust me, I'm just regurgitating them. I'm sorry. Oh, I said, yeah, these were definitely his words. I'm just regurgitating,   Michael Hingson ** 58:46 yeah, well, but, but certainly some, some good wisdom there. But you also then chose to follow, which is great, and probably whether he's surprised it took so long. It sounds like it all happened at the right time, because you are also willing to listen, which is great. So you you moved forward. When did you form your company?   Kijuan Amey ** 59:12 I mean, on paper, it was like two years ago, okay, um, but like I said, officially, I started speaking in 2019 right? I understand that, yeah. But so I always count 2019 because I really believe as soon as you start doing something, you're doing it, right, yeah, you understand and and the legality side of it, hey, you can have that. I don't care. But yeah. So that's how I view it.   Michael Hingson ** 59:44 So how did 10 years, if you will, even though some of it was less active, but how did 10 years in the military help prepare you for public speaking and what you're doing today?   Kijuan Amey ** 59:56 Oh, wow. I mean, well, first off, like I told you, the resilience coaching. Mm. Um, that's part of it, and that's all they used to talk about in the military, being resilient. We used to have, like, a training, I think it was every year, is it every year or twice a year, or something like that, but we used to have training on that stuff. Um, speaking, I I never really wanted to be a public speaker. I'll be honest. Um, I do have to stay that, say, say that, because I was not one who wanted to be in the spotlight. But if the spotlight found me, I'm okay with it. You know that that's that's what I was okay with. If it found me, that's fine, but I'm not trying to take over it. Don't put it on me, shine that light somewhere else and so, but what happened with that? Okay, yes, I took, I was in college for a while, and I did take a public speaking class with the instructor. Upgrade. You have to do public speaking, because you have to give presentations going through the pre training and the actual training, the certification training. So those were different. And also the the group sizes were different. Size you might be talking to one person you might be talking to an auditorium full. Mm, hmm. So there, there was that. And, you know? So these different things, I speak for different things at my church, you know? And so it started to kind of snowball again. Different things were building me up to that point, and as I got and you'll, you'll appreciate this here, as I got into my vision, or the eyesight loss, I understood that I have a superpower. Now, yeah, and I know people like a superpower. What are you talking about, man? So I can't see you so the the looks on your faces don't affect me, the fact that I'm looking at, or supposedly looking at, engaging an audience of one to 10 to 100 to even 1500 because I have spoken to over 1500 people before, it does not affect me, yeah? And that is like us to me, my superpower now. So that's how I've changed all of this to be fitting for me. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:32 yeah. Well, so let me ask you this. We've been doing this for a while, but I want to ask you one more question. Other people are certainly going through challenges. They're experiencing difficulties in their lives, and maybe some life altering kinds of situations. What kind of advice would you give them?   Kijuan Amey ** 1:02:54 Oh, the first one I can easily give you don't give up, and it's easily easy to give, but it's not easy to do. So I do have to say that you but if you keep that in the back of your mind, don't give up and you keep saying that to yourself, make it an affirmation. Put it on your vision board, put it in as a reminder in your phone, whatever you need to keep you grounded in that concept of, don't give up. And so that's one thing I would say. And for myself, I say this a lot, my situation, whether it's me being blind, me being having a traumatic brain injury, me having emotional, you know, flare ups, spinal cord issues or lack of mobility, what, whatever it is my situation that doesn't define who I am. I define who I am.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:56 So that's what I'll leave people with. And that is so true for everyone. Your your conditions don't define you. You've defined you, and you can choose how you want to be defined. Which gets back to, don't let your sight get in the way of your vision. Yep. Well, key one, I want to thank you for being here. I hope that people take this to heart, and I hope it will generate more business for you, if people want to reach out to you, maybe for coaching or for speaking and so on. How do they do that? Yeah,   Kijuan Amey ** 1:04:33 and I appreciate you saying that. So again, you can go to my website. That's Amey, motivation.com A, M, E, y, motivation.com you can also find my book on there. So don't focus on why me from motorcycle accident to miracle. You can also go on Amazon, Kindle Apple books as well as audible to find my book as well. So I do have audio versions out there for those who like to listen to their book. Books and for speaking engagements, feel free to click that book me link you can speak book me for a convention or conference or an event, a gala, high school, college, whatever you want me to come speak for. Come get me because I am all over it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:18 How many speaking events do you do a year.   Kijuan Amey ** 1:05:21 I don't count. Okay, if I try to count,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:24 you know what I mean? I know the feeling, yeah,   Kijuan Amey ** 1:05:27 I just do Hey, hey. That's, I think that's what Nike said. Just do it, man.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:31 Yeah, exactly right. Well, Kijuan, thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you who are out there listening or watching. Really, we're grateful that you're here. I hope that what we've talked about today not only inspires you, but it gives you some good life thoughts that you can go use. Because certainly, everything that we got to discuss today is relevant, not just if you are having a challenge in your life, but it's something that is important for all of us. Life lessons like these don't grow on trees, and I hope that you'll enjoy them and use them. Reach out to key one. I'd love to hear from you. Love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at access, A, B, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S O, n.com/podcast, love you to please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening. We love your reviews and your thoughts, so please do that, and as I also love to do, and that is to ask you, if you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on this podcast. And Kijuan you as well, love to get your thoughts. Feel free to reach out, introduce us to anyone who you think ought to be a guest. We're always looking for more people who want to come on and and share their stories and help us all become more unstoppable than we think we are. But again, really appreciate your time today, everyone and Kiju, especially you. Thanks for being here. This has been wonderful.   Kijuan Amey ** 1:07:15 Thank you again. I really appreciate you having me on to tell my story.   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:22 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Episode Notes In our second convention special we go to New Orleans with our presentation to the National Federation of the Blind. Staff from Service Delivery, Marketing and Sales, and Engineering talk about their roles and this year's updates. Then CEO Troy Otillio talks AI and Aira's involvement with Google Deep Mind's Project Astra.  Sign up to become a trusted tester at https://aira.io/projectastra. Learn more about visual interpreting at https://aira.io. Call our Customer Care Team at 1-800-835-1934 or email support@aira.io. Email us: airacast@aira.io Find out more at https://airacast.pinecast.co This podcast is powered by Pinecast.

Ryan Wrecker leads Hour 2 with a sharp discussion on Texas Democrats fleeing to Illinois amid redistricting fights, featuring Julie Harris of the National Federation of Republican Women, who highlights GOP grassroots efforts targeting key swing states. Former Missouri senator John Lamping weighs in on a lawsuit challenging taxpayer-funded stadiums for pro teams and the likelihood of a Missouri special session on redistricting, explaining the deep political maneuvers behind these moves. The hour wraps with a bizarre news roundup about a Danish zoo soliciting small pets for predator food, the notorious corpse flower blooming locally, and a rare whale striking a boat in New Jersey—strange stories to offset heavy politics.

David Mayernik is an architect, artist, writer, educator and most of all, he is a life-long student. David grew up in Allentown Pennsylvania. As he tells us during this episode, even at a young age of two he already loved to draw. He says he always had a pencil and paper with him and he used them constantly. His mother kept many of his drawings and he still has many of them to this day.   After graduating from University of Notre Dame David held several positions with various architectural firms. He always believed that he learned more by teaching himself, however, and eventually he decided to leave the professional world of architecture and took teaching positions at Notre Dame. He recently retired and is now Professor Emeritus at Notre Dame.   Our conversation is far ranging including discussions of life, the importance of learning and growing by listening to your inner self. David offers us many wonderful and insightful lessons and thoughts we all can use. We even talk some about about how technology such as Computer Aided Design systems, (CAD), are affecting the world of Architecture. I know you will enjoy what David has to say. Please let me know your thoughts through email at michaelhi@accessibe.com.     About the Guest:   David Mayernik is an architect, artist, writer, and educator. He was born in 1960 in Allentown, Pennsylvania; his parents were children of immigrants from Slovakia and Italy. He is a Fellow of the American Academy in Rome and the British Royal Society for the Encouragement of Arts, Manufactures, and Commerce, and has won numerous grants, awards and competitions, including the Gabriel Prize for research in France, the Steedman Competition, and the Minnesota State Capitol Grounds competition (with then partner Thomas N. Rajkovich). In 1995 he was named to the decennial list of the top forty architects in the United States under forty. In the fall of 2022, he was a resident at the Bogliasco Foundation in Liguria and the Cini foundation in Venice.   His design work for the TASIS campus in Switzerland over twenty-eight years has been recognized with a Palladio Award from Traditional Building magazine, an honorable mention in the INTBAU Excellence Awards, and a jury prize from the Prix Européen d'Architecture Philippe Rotthier. TASIS Switzerland was named one of the nine most beautiful boarding schools in the world by AD Magazine in March 2024. For ten years he also designed a series of new buildings for TASIS England in Surrey.   David Mayernik studied fresco painting with the renowned restorer Leonetto Tintori, and he has painted frescoes for the American Academy in Rome, churches in the Mugello and Ticino, and various buildings on the TASIS campus in Switzerland. He designed stage sets for the Haymarket Opera company of Chicago for four seasons between 2012 and 2014. He won the competition to paint the Palio for his adopted home of Lucca in 2013. His paintings and drawings have been exhibited in New York, Chicago, London, Innsbruck, Rome, and Padova and featured in various magazines, including American Artist and Fine Art Connoisseur.   David Mayernik is Professor Emeritus with the University of Notre Dame, where for twenty years he taught in the School of Architecture. He is the author of two books, The Challenge of Emulation in Art and Architecture (Routledge, UK) and Timeless Cities: An Architect's Reflections on Renaissance Italy, (Basic Books), and numerous essays and book chapters, including “The Baroque City” for the Oxford Handbook of the Baroque. In 2016 he created the online course The Meaning of Rome for Notre Dame, hosted on the edX platform, which had an audience of six thousand followers. Ways to connect with David:   Website: www.davidmayernik.com Instagram: davidmayernik LinkedIn: davidmayernik EdX: The Meaning of Rome https://www.edx.org/learn/humanities/university-of-notre-dame-the-meaning-of-rome-the-renaissance-and-baroque-city     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:17 Well, hi and welcome once again. Wherever you happen to be, to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to chat with David Mayernik, unless you're in Europe, and then it's David Mayernik, but either way, we're glad to have him. He is an architect. He is an award winning architect. He's an author. He's done a number of things in his life, and we're going to talk about all of those, and it's kind of more fun to let him be the one to talk more about it, and then I can just pick up and ask questions as we go, and that's what we'll do. But we're really glad that he's here. So David, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   David Mayernik ** 01:57 Oh, thanks so much. Michael, thanks for the invitation. I'm looking forward to it.   Michael Hingson ** 02:02 Well, I know we've been working on getting this set up, and David actually happens to be in Italy today, as opposed to being in the US. He was a professor at Notre Dame for 20 years, but he has spent a lot of time in Europe and elsewhere, and I'm sure he's going to talk about that. But why don't we start, as I mentioned earlier, as I love to do, tell us kind of about the early David growing up.   David Mayernik ** 02:25 Well, so my both of my parents passed away several years ago, and when I was at my mom's funeral, one of our next door neighbors was telling my wife what I was like when I was a kid, and she said he was very quiet and very intense. And I suppose that's how I was perceived. I'm not sure I perceived myself that way I did. The thing about me is I've always drawn my mom. I mean, lots of kids draw, but I drew like credibly, well, when I was, you know, two and three years old. And of course, my mother saved everything. But the best thing about it was that I always had paper and pencil available. You know, we were terribly well off. We weren't poor, but we weren't, you know, well to do, but I never lacked for paper and pencils, and that just allowed me to just draw as much as I possibly could.   Michael Hingson ** 03:16 And so I guess the other question is, of course, do you still have all those old drawings since your mom kept   David Mayernik ** 03:23 them? Well, you know? Yeah, actually, after she passed, I did get her, Well, her collection of them. I don't know that all of them. My father had a penchant for throwing things away, unfortunately. So some of the archive is no longer with us, but no but enough of it. Just odds and bits from different areas of my life. And the thing is, you know, I was encouraged enough. I mean, all kids get encouraged. I think when they're young, everything they do is fabulous, but I had enough encouragement from people who seem to take it seriously that I thought maybe I had something and and it was the kind of thing that allowed me to have enough confidence in myself that I actually enjoyed doing it and and mostly, my parents were just impressed. You know, it just was impressive to them. And so I just happily went along my own way. The thing about it was that I really wanted to find my own path as somebody who drew and had a chance in high school for a scholarship to a local art school. I won a competition for a local art school scholarship, and I went for a couple of lessons, and I thought, you know, they're just teaching me to draw like them. I want to draw like me. So for better or worse, I'm one of those autodidacts who tries to find my own way, and, you know, it has its ups and downs. I mean, the downside of it is it's a slower learning process. Is a lot more trial and error. But the upside of it is, is that it's your own. I mean, essentially, I had enough of an ego that, you know, I really wanted to do. Things my way.   Michael Hingson ** 05:02 Well, you illustrate something that I've believed and articulate now I didn't used to, but I do now a lot more, which is I'm my own best teacher. And the reality is that you you learn by doing, and people can can give you information. And, yeah, you're right. Probably they wanted you to mostly just draw like them. But the bottom line is, you already knew from years of drawing as a child, you wanted to perhaps go a slightly different way, and you worked at it, and it may have taken longer, but look at what you learned.   David Mayernik ** 05:37 Yeah, I think it's, I mean, for me, it's, it's important that whatever you do, you do because you feel like you're being true to yourself somehow. I mean, I think that at least that's always been important to me, is that I don't, I don't like doing things for the sake of doing them. I like doing them because I think they matter. And I like, you know, I think essentially pursuing my own way of doing it meant that it always was, I mean, beyond just personal, it was something I was really committed to. And you know, the thing about it, eventually, for my parents was they thought it was fabulous, you know, loved great that you draw, but surely you don't intend to be an artist, because, you know, you want to have a job and make a living. And so I eventually realized that in high school, that while they, well, they probably would have supported anything I did that, you know, I was being nudged towards something a little bit more practical, which I think happens to a lot of kids who choose architecture like I did. It's a way, it's a practical way of being an artist and and that's we could talk about that. But I think that's not always true.   Michael Hingson ** 06:41 Bill, go ahead, talk about that. Well, I think that the   David Mayernik ** 06:44 thing about architecture is that it's become, well, one it became a profession in America, really, in the 20th century. I mean, it's in the sense that there was a licensing exam and all the requirements of what we think of as, you know, a professional service that, you know, like being a lawyer or a doctor, that architecture was sort of professionalized in the 20th century, at least in the United States. And, and it's a business, you know, ostensibly, I mean, you're, you know, you're doing what you do for a fee. And, and so architecture tries to balance the art part of it, or the creative side, the professional side of it, and the business side. And usually it's some rather imperfect version of all of those things. And the hard part, I think the hardest part to keep alive is the art part, because the business stuff and the professional stuff can really kind of take over. And that's been my trial. Challenge is to try to have it all three ways, essentially.   Michael Hingson ** 07:39 Do you think that Frank Lloyd Wright had a lot to do with bringing architecture more to the forefront of mindsets, mindsets, and also, of course, from an art standpoint, clearly, he had his own way of doing things.   David Mayernik ** 07:54 Yeah, absolutely he comes from, I mean, I wouldn't call it a rebellious tradition, but there was a streak of chafing at East Coast European classicism that happened in Chicago. Louis Sullivan, you know, is mostly responsible for that. And I but, but Right, had this, you know, kind of heroic sense of himself and and I think that his ability to draw, which was phenomenal. His sense that he wanted to do something different, and his sense that he wanted to do something American, made him a kind of a hero. Eventually, I think it coincided with America's growing sense of itself. And so for me, like lot of kids in America, my from my day, if you told somebody in high school you wanted to be an architect, they would give you a book on Frank Lloyd Wright. I mean, that's just, you know, part of the package.   Michael Hingson ** 08:47 Yeah, of course, there are others as well, but still, he brought a lot into it. And of course there, there are now more architects that we hear about and designers and so on the people what, I m Pei, who designed the world, original World Trade Center and other things like that. Clearly, there are a number of people who have made major impacts on the way we design and think of Building and Construction today,   David Mayernik ** 09:17 you know, I mean America's, you know, be kind of, it really was a leader in the development of architecture in the 20th century. I mean, in the 19th century was very much, you know, following what was happening in Europe. But essentially, by the 20th century, the America had a sense of itself that didn't always mean that it rejected the European tradition. Sometimes it tried to do it, just bigger and better, but, but it also felt like it had its, you know, almost a responsibility to find its own way, like me and, you know, come up with an American kind of architecture and and so it's always been in a kind of dialog with architecture from around the world. I mean, especially in Europe, at Frank Lloyd Wright was heavily influenced by Japanese architecture and. And so we've always seen ourselves, I think, in relationship to the world. And it's just the question of whether we were master or pupil to a certain extent,   Michael Hingson ** 10:07 and in reality, probably a little bit of both.   David Mayernik ** 10:12 Yeah, and we are, and I think, you know, acknowledging who we are, the fact that we didn't just, you know, spring from the earth in the United States, where we're all, I mean, essentially all immigrants, mostly, and essentially we, you know, essentially bring, we have baggage, essentially, as a culture, from lots of other places. And that's actually an advantage. I mean, I think it's actually what makes us a rich culture, is the diversity. I mean, even me, my father's family was Slovak, my mother's family Italian. And, you know from when I tell you know Europeans that they think that's just quintessentially American. That's what makes you an American, is that you're not a purebred of some kind.   Michael Hingson ** 10:49 Yeah, yeah. Pure purebred American is, is really sort of nebulous and and not necessarily overly accurate, because you are probably immigrants or part other kinds of races or nationalities as well. And that's, that's okay.   David Mayernik ** 11:08 It's, it's rich, you know, I think it's, it's a richer. It's the extent to which you want to engage with it. And the interesting thing about my parents was that they were both children of first generation immigrants. My mom's parents had been older Italian, and they were already married, and when they came to the States, my father's parents were younger and Slovak, and they met in the United States. And my father really wasn't that interested in his Slovak heritage. I mean, just, you know, he could speak some of the language, you know, really feel like it was something he wanted to hold on to or pass along, was my mom was, I mean, she loved her parents. She, you know, spoke with him in Italian, or actually not even Italian, the dialect from where her parents came from, which is north of Venice. And so she, I think she kind of, whether consciously or unconsciously, passed that on to me, that sense that I wanted to be. I was interested in where I came from, where the origins of my where my roots were, and it's something that had an appeal for me that wasn't just it wasn't front brain, it was really kind of built into who I was, which is why, you know, one of the reasons I chose to go to Notre Dame to study where I also wound up teaching like, welcome back Carter, is that I we had a Rome program, and so I've been teaching in the Rome program for our school, but we, I was there 44 years ago as a student.   Michael Hingson ** 12:28 Yeah. So quite a while, needless to say. And you know, I think, well, my grandmother on my mother's side was Polish, but I I never did get much in the way of information about the culture and so on from her and and my mom never really dealt with it much, because she was totally from The Bronx in New York, and was always just American, so I never really got a lot of that. But very frankly, in talking to so many people on this podcast over almost the last four years, talking to a number of people whose parents and grandparents all came to this country and how that affected them. It makes me really appreciate the kind of people who we all are, and we all are, are a conglomerate of so many different cultures, and that's okay, yeah? I mean,   David Mayernik ** 13:31 I think it's more than okay, and I think we need to just be honest about it, yeah. And, you know, kind of celebrate it, because the Italians brought with them, you know, tremendous skills. For example, a lot of my grandfather was a stone mason. You know, during the Depression, he worked, you know, the for the WPA essentially sponsored a whole series of public works projects in the parks in the town I grew up in Allentown, Pennsylvania. And Allentown has a fabulous park system. And my grandfather built a lot of stone walls in the parks in the 1930s and, you know, all these cultures that came to the states often brought, you know, specialized skills. You know, from where they they came from, and, and they enriched the American, you know, skill set, essentially, and, and that's, you know, again, that's we are, who we are because of that, you know, I celebrated I, you know, I'm especially connected to my Italian heritage. I feel like, in part because my grandfather, the stone mason, was a bit of jack of all trades. He could paint and draw. And my mom, you know, wrote poetry and painted. And even though she mostly, you know, in my life, was a was a housewife, but before she met my father, and they got married relatively late for their day, she had a professional life in World War Two, my mom actually went to Penn State for a couple of years in the start of at the start of the war, and then parents wanted her to come home, and so she did two years of engineering. Penn State. When she came back to Allentown, she actually got a job at the local airplane manufacturing plant that was making fighter planes for the United States called company called volte, and she did drafting for them. And then after World War Two, she got a job for the local power company drafting modern electrical kitchens and and so I've inherited all my mom's drafting equipment. And, you know, she's, she's very much a kind of a child of the culture that she came from, and in the sense that it was a, you know, artistic culture, a creative culture. And, you know, I definitely happy and proud of   Michael Hingson ** 15:37 that. You know, one of the things that impresses me, and I think about a lot in talking to so many people whose parents and grandparents immigrated to this country and so on, is not just the skill sets that they brought, but the work ethic that they had, that they imparted to people. And I think people who have had a number of generations here have not always kept that, and I think they've lost something very valuable, because that work ethic is what made those people who they were   David Mayernik ** 16:08 absolutely I mean, my Yeah, I mean my father. I mean absolutely true is, I mean tireless worker, capable of tremendous self sacrifice and and, you know, and that whole generation, I mean, he fought in World War Two. He actually joined, joined the Navy underage. He lied about his age to get in the Navy and that. But they were capable of self, tremendous self sacrifice and tremendous effort. And, you know, I think, you know, we're always, you know, these days, we always talk about work life balance. And I have to say, being an architect, most architects don't have a great work life balance. Mostly it's, it's a lot of work and a little bit of life. And that's, I don't, you know. I think not everybody survives that. Not every architects marriage survives that mine has. But I think it's, you know, that the idea that you're, you're sort of defined by what you do. I think there's a lot of talk these days about that's not a good thing. I I'm sort of okay with that. I'm sort of okay with being defined by what I do.   Michael Hingson ** 17:13 Yeah, and, and that that's, that's okay, especially if you're okay with it. That's good. Well, you So you went to Notre Dame, and obviously dealt with architecture. There some,   David Mayernik ** 17:28 yeah. I mean, the thing, the great thing about Notre Dame is to have the Rome program, and that was the idea of actually a Sicilian immigrant to the States in the early 20th century who became a professor at Notre Dame. And he had, he won the Paris prize. A guy named Frank Montana who won the Paris prize in the 1930s went to Harvard and was a professor at Notre Dame. And he had the good idea that, you know, maybe sending kids to five years of architecture education in Indiana, maybe wasn't the best, well rounded education possible, and maybe they should get out of South Bend for a year, and he, on his own initiative, without even support from the university, started a Rome program, and then said to the university, hey, we have a Rome program now. And so that was, that was his instinct to do that. And while I got, I think, a great education there, especially after Rome, the professor, one professor I had after Rome, was exceptional for me. But you know, Rome was just the opportunity to see great architecture. I mean, I had seen some. I mean, I, you know, my parents would go to Philadelphia, New York and, you know, we I saw some things. But, you know, I wasn't really bowled over by architecture until I went to Rome. And just the experience of that really changed my life, and it gave me a direction,   Michael Hingson ** 18:41 essentially. So the Rome program would send you to Rome for a year.   David Mayernik ** 18:46 Yeah, which is unusual too, because a lot of overseas programs do a semester. We were unusual in that the third year out of a five year undergraduate degree in architecture, the whole year is spent in Rome. And you know, when you're 20 ish, you know, 20 I turned 21 when I was over there. It's a real transition time in your life. I mean, it's, it was really transformative. And for all of us, small of my classmates, I mean, we're all kind of grew up. We all became a bit, you know, European. We stopped going to football games when we went back on campus, because it wasn't cool anymore, but, but we, we definitely were transformed by it personally, but, it really opened our eyes to what architecture was capable of, and that once you've, once you've kind of seen that, you know, once you've been to the top of the mountain, kind of thing, it can really get under your skin. And, you know, kind of sponsor whatever you do for the rest of your life. At least for me, it   Michael Hingson ** 19:35 did, yeah, yeah. So what did you do after you graduated?   David Mayernik ** 19:40 Well, I graduated, and I think also a lot of our students lately have had a pretty reasonably good economy over the last couple of decades, that where it's been pretty easy for our students to get a job. I graduated in a recession. I pounded the pavements a lot. I went, you know, staying with my parents and. Allentown, went back and forth to New York, knocking on doors. There was actually a woman who worked at the unemployment agency in New York who specialized in architects, and she would arrange interviews with firms. And, you know, I just got something for the summer, essentially, and then finally, got a job in the in the fall for somebody I wanted to work with in Philadelphia and and that guy left that firm after about three months because he won a competition. He didn't take me with him, and I was in a firm that really didn't want to be with. I wanted to be with him, not with the firm. And so I then I picked up stakes and moved to Chicago and worked for an architect who'd been a visiting professor at Notre Dame eventually became dean at Yale Tom Beebe, and it was a great learning experience, but it was also a lot of hours at low pay. You know, I don't think, I don't think my students, I can't even tell my students what I used to make an hour as a young architect. I don't think they would understand, yeah, I mean, I really don't, but it was, it was a it was the sense that you were, that your early years was a kind of, I mean an apprenticeship. I mean almost an unpaid apprenticeship at some level. I mean, I needed to make enough money to pay the rent and eat, but that was about it. And and so I did that, but I bounced around a lot, you know, and a lot of kids, I think a lot of our students, when they graduate, they think that getting a job is like a marriage, like they're going to be in it forever. And, you know, I, for better or worse, I moved around a lot. I mean, I moved every time I hit what I felt was like a point of diminishing returns. When I felt like I was putting more in and getting less out, I thought it was time to go and try something else. And I don't know that's always good advice. I mean, it can make you look flighty or unstable, but I kind of always followed my my instinct on that.   Michael Hingson ** 21:57 I don't remember how old I was. You're talking about wages. But I remember it was a Sunday, and my parents were reading the newspaper, and they got into a discussion just about the fact that the minimum wage had just been changed to be $1.50 an hour. I had no concept of all of that. But of course, now looking back on it, $1.50 an hour, and looking at it now, it's pretty amazing. And in a sense, $1.50 an hour, and now we're talking about $15 and $16 an hour, and I had to be, I'm sure, under 10. So it was sometime between 1958 and 1960 or so, or maybe 61 I don't remember exactly when, but in a sense, looking at it now, I'm not sure that the minimum wage has gone up all that much. Yes, 10 times what it was. But so many other things are a whole lot more than 10 times what they were back then,   David Mayernik ** 23:01 absolutely, yeah. I mean, I mean, in some ways also, my father was a, my father was a factory worker. I mean, he tried to have lots of other businesses of his own. He, you're, you're obviously a great salesman. And the one skill my father didn't have is he could, he could, like, for example, he had a home building business. He could build a great house. He just couldn't sell it. And so, you know, I think he was a factory worker, but he was able to send my sister and I to private college simultaneously on a factory worker salary, you know, with, with, I mean, I had some student loan debt, but not a lot. And that's, that's not possible today.   Michael Hingson ** 23:42 No, he saved and put money aside so that you could do that, yeah, and,   David Mayernik ** 23:47 and he made enough. I mean, essentially, the cost of college was not that much. And he was, you know, right, yeah. And he had a union job. It was, you know, reasonably well paid. I mean, we lived in a, you know, a nice middle class neighborhood, and, you know, we, we had a nice life growing up, and he was able to again, send us to college. And I that's just not possible for without tremendous amount of debt. It's not possible today. So the whole scale of our economy shifted tremendously. What I was making when I was a young architect. I mean, it was not a lot then, but I survived. Fact, actually saved money in Chicago for a two month summer in Europe after that. So, you know, essentially, the cost of living was, it didn't take a lot to cover your your expenses, right? The advantage of that for me was that it allowed me time when I had free time when I after that experience, and I traveled to Europe, I came back and I worked in Philadelphia for the same guy who had left the old firm in Philadelphia and went off on his own, started his own business. I worked for him for about nine months, but I had time in the evenings, because I didn't have to work 80 hours a week to do other things. I taught myself how to paint. And do things that I was interested in, and I could experiment and try things and and, you know, because surviving wasn't all that hard. I mean, it was easy to pay your bills and, and I think that's one of the things that's, I think, become more onerous, is that, I think for a lot of young people just kind of dealing with both college debt and then, you know, essentially the cost of living. They don't have a lot of time or energy to do anything else. And you know, for me, that was, I had the luxury of having time and energy to invest in my own growth, let's say as a more career, as a creative person. And you know, I also, I also tell students that, you know, there are a lot of hours in the day, you know, and whatever you're doing in an office. There are a lot of hours after that, you could be doing something else, and that I used every one of those hours as best I could.   Michael Hingson ** 25:50 Yeah. Well, you know, we're all born with challenges in life. What kind of challenges, real challenges did you have growing up as you look back on it?   David Mayernik ** 26:01 Yeah, my, I mean, my, I mean, there was some, there was some, a few rocky times when my father was trying to have his own business. And, you know, I'm not saying we grew up. We didn't struggle, but it wasn't, you know, always smooth sailing. But I think one of the things I learned about being an architect, which I didn't realize, and only kind of has been brought home to me later. Right now, I have somebody who's told me not that long ago, you know? You know, the problem is, architecture is a gentleman's profession. You know that IT architecture, historically was practiced by people from a social class, who knew, essentially, they grew up with the people who would become their clients, right? And so the way a lot of architects built their practice was essentially on, you know, family connections and personal connections, college connections. And I didn't have that advantage. So, you know, I've, I've essentially had to define myself or establish myself based on what I'm capable of doing. And you know, it's not always a level playing field. The great breakthrough for me, in a lot of ways, was that one of the one of my classmates and I entered a big international competition when we were essentially 25 years old. I think we entered. I turned 26 and it was an open competition. So, you know, no professional requirements. You know, virtually no entry fee to redesign the state capitol grounds of Minnesota, and it was international, and we, and we actually were selected as one of the top five teams that were allowed to proceed onto the second phase, and at which point we we weren't licensed architects. We didn't have a lot of professional sense or business sense, so we had to associate with a local firm in Minnesota and and we competed for the final phase. We did most of the work. The firm supported us, but they gave us basically professional credibility and and we won. We were the architects of the state capitol grounds in Minnesota, 26 years old, and that's because the that system of competition was basically a level playing field. It was, you know, ostensibly anonymous, at least the first phase, and it was just basically who had the best design. And you know, a lot of the way architecture gets architects get chosen. The way architecture gets distributed is connections, reputation, things like that, but, but you know, when you find those avenues where it's kind of a level playing field and you get to show your stuff. It doesn't matter where you grew up or who you are, it just matters how good you are, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 28:47 well, and do you think it's still that way today?   David Mayernik ** 28:51 There are a lot fewer open professional competitions. They're just a lot fewer of them. It was the and, you know, maybe they learned a lesson. I mean, maybe people like me shouldn't have been winning competitions. I mean, at some level, we were out of our league. I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say, from a design point of view. I mean, we were very capable of doing what the project involved, but we were not ready for the hardball of collaborating with a big firm and and the and the politics of what we were doing and the business side of it, we got kind of crushed, and, and, and eventually they never had the money to build the project, so the project just kind of evaporated. And the guy I used to work with in Philadelphia told me, after I won the competition, he said, you know, because he won a competition. He said, You know, the second project is the hardest one to get, you know, because you might get lucky one time and you win a competition, the question is, how do you build practice out of that?   Michael Hingson ** 29:52 Yeah, and it's a good point, yeah, yeah.   David Mayernik ** 29:55 I mean, developing some kind of continuity is hard. I mean, I. Have a longer, more discontinuous practice after that, but it's that's the hard part.   Michael Hingson ** 30:07 Well, you know, I mentioned challenges before, and we all, we all face challenges and so on. How do we overcome the challenges, our inherited challenges, or the perceived challenges that we have? How do we overcome those and work to move forward, to be our best? Because that's clearly kind of what you're talking about here.   David Mayernik ** 30:26 Yeah, well, the true I mean, so the challenges that we're born with, and I think there are also some challenges that, you know, we impose on ourselves, right? I mean, in this, in the best sense, I mean the ways that we challenge ourselves. And for me, I'm a bit of an idealist, and you know, the world doesn't look kindly on idealist. If you know, from a business, professional point of view, idealism is often, I'm not saying it's frowned upon, but it's hardly encouraged and rewarded and but I think that for me, I've learned over time that it's you really just beating your head against the wall is not the best. A little bit of navigating your way around problems rather than trying to run through them or knock them over is a smarter strategy. And so you have to be a little nimble. You have to be a little creative about how you find work and essentially, how you keep yourself afloat and and if you're if you're open to possibilities, and if you take some risks, you can, you can actually navigate yourself through a series of obstacles and actually have a rich, interesting life, but it may not follow the path that you thought you were starting out on at the beginning. And that's the, I think that's the skill that not everybody has.   Michael Hingson ** 31:43 The other part about that, though, is that all too often, we don't really give thought to what we're going to do, or we we maybe even get nudges about what we ought to do, but we discount them because we think, Oh, that's just not the way to do it. Rather than stepping back and really analyzing what we're seeing, what we're hearing. And I, for 1am, a firm believer in the fact that our inner self, our inner voice, will guide us if we give it the opportunity to do that.   David Mayernik ** 32:15 You know, I absolutely agree. I think a lot of people, you know, I was, I for, I have, for better or worse, I've always had a good sense of what I wanted to do with my life, even if architecture was a you know, conscious way to do something that was not exactly maybe what I dreamed of doing, it was a, you know, as a more rational choice. But, but I've, but I've basically followed my heart, more or less, and I've done the things that I always believed in it was true too. And when I meet people, especially when I have students who don't really know what they love, or, you know, really can't tell you what they really are passionate about, but my sense of it is, this is just my I might be completely wrong, but my sense of it is, they either can't admit it to themselves, or they can't admit it to somebody else that they that, either, in the first case, they're not prepared to listen to themselves and actually really deep, dig deep and think about what really matters to them, or if they do know what that is, they're embarrassed to admit it, or they're embarrassed to tell somebody else. I think most of us have some drive, or some internal, you know, impetus towards something and, and you're right. I mean, learning to listen to that is, is a, I mean, it's rewarding. I mean, essentially, you become yourself. You become more, or the best possible self you can be, I guess.   Michael Hingson ** 33:42 Yeah, I agree. And I guess that that kind of answers the question I was was thinking of, and that is, basically, as you're doing things in life, should you follow your dreams?   David Mayernik ** 33:53 You know, there's a lot, a lot of people are writing these days, if you read, if you're just, you know, on the, on the internet, reading the, you know, advice that you get on, you know, the new services, from the BBC to, you know, any other form of information that's out there, there's a lot of back and forth by between the follow your dreams camp and the don't follow your dreams camp. And the argument of the don't follow your dreams camp seems to be that it's going to be hard and you'll be frustrated, and you know, and that's true, but it doesn't mean you're going to fail, and I don't think anybody should expect life to be easy. So I think if you understand going in, and maybe that's part of my Eastern European heritage that you basically expect life to be hard, not, not that it has to be unpleasant, but you know it's going to be a struggle, but, but if you are true to yourself or follow your dreams, you're probably not going to wake up in the middle of your life with a crisis. You know, because I think a lot of times when you suppress your dreams, they. Stay suppressed forever, and the frustrations come out later, and it's better to just take them on board and try to again, navigate your way through life with those aspirations that you have, that you know are really they're built in like you were saying. They're kind of hardwired to be that person, and it's best to listen to that person.   Michael Hingson ** 35:20 There's nothing wrong with having real convictions, and I think it's important to to step back and make sure that you're really hearing what your convictions are and feeling what your convictions are. But that is what people should do, because otherwise, you're just not going to be happy.   David Mayernik ** 35:36 You're not and you're you're at one level, allowing yourself to manipulate yourself. I mean, essentially, you're, you know, kind of essentially deterring yourself from being who you are. You're probably also susceptible to other people doing that to you, that if you don't have enough sense of yourself, a lot of other people can manipulate you, push you around. And, you know, the thing about having a good sense of yourself is you also know how to stand up for yourself, or at least you know that you're a self that's worth standing up for. And that's you know. That's that, that thing that you know the kids learn in the school yard when you confront the bully, you know you have to, you know, the parents always tell you, you know, stand up to the bully. And at some level, life is going to bully you unless you really are prepared to stand up for something.   Michael Hingson ** 36:25 Yeah, and there's so many examples of that I know as a as a blind person, I've been involved in taking on some pretty major tasks in life. For example, it used to be that anyone with a so called Disability couldn't buy life insurance, and eventually, we took on the insurance industry and won to get the laws passed in every state that now mandate that you can't discriminate against people with disabilities in providing life insurance unless you really have evidence To prove that it's appropriate to do that, and since the laws were passed, there hasn't been any evidence. And the reason is, of course, there never has been evidence, and insurance companies kept claiming they had it, but then when they were challenged to produce it, they couldn't. But the reality is that you can take on major tasks and major challenges and win as long as you really understand that that is what your life is steering you to do,   David Mayernik ** 37:27 yeah, like you said, and also too, having a sense of your your self worth beyond whatever that disability is, that you know what you're capable of, apart from that, you know that's all about what you can't do, but all the things that you can do are the things that should allow you to do anything. And, yeah, I think we're, I think it's a lot of times people will try to define you by what you can't do, you   Michael Hingson ** 37:51 know? And the reality is that those are traditionally misconceptions and inaccurate anyway, as I point out to people, disability does not mean a lack of ability. Although a lot of people say, Well, of course it, it is because it starts with dis. And my response is, what do you then? How do you deal with the words disciple, discern and discrete? For example, you know the fact of the matter is, we all have a disability. Most of you are light dependent. You don't do well with out light in your life, and that's okay. We love you anyway, even though you you have to have light but. But the reality is, in a sense, that's as much a disability is not being light dependent or being light independent. The difference is that light on demand has caused so much focus that it's real easy to get, but it doesn't change the fact that your disability is covered up, but it's still there.   David Mayernik ** 38:47 No, it's true. I mean, I think actually, yeah, knowing. I mean, you're, we're talking about knowing who you are, and, you know, listening to your inner voice and even listening to your aspirations. But also, I mean being pretty honest about where your liabilities are, like what the things are that you struggle with and just recognizing them, and not not to dwell on them, but to just recognize how they may be getting in the way and how you can work around them. You know, one of the things I tell students is that it's really important to be self critical, but, but it's, it's not good to be self deprecating, you know. And I think being self critical if you're going to be a self taught person like I am, in a lot of ways, you you have to be aware of where you're not getting it right. Because I think the problem is sometimes you can satisfy yourself too easily. You're too happy with your own progress. You know, the advantage of having somebody outside teaching you is they're going to tell you when you're doing it wrong, and most people are kind of loath do that for themselves, but, but the other end of that is the people who are so self deprecating, constantly putting themselves down, that they never are able to move beyond it, because they're only aware of what they can't do. And you know, I think balancing self criticism with a sense of your self worth is, you know, one of the great balancing acts of life. You.   Michael Hingson ** 40:00 Well, that's why I've adopted the concept of I'm my own best teacher, because rather than being critical and approaching anything in a negative way, if I realize that I'm going to be my own best teacher, and people will tell me things, I can look at them, and I should look at them, analyze them, step back, internalize them or not, but use that information to grow, then that's what I really should do, and I would much prefer the positive approach of I'm my own best teacher over anything else.   David Mayernik ** 40:31 Yeah, well, I mean, the last kind of teachers, and I, you know, a lot of my students have thought of me as a critical teacher. One of the things I think my students have misunderstood about that is, it's not that I have a low opinion of them. It's actually that I have such a high opinion that I always think they're capable of doing better. Yeah, I think one of the problems in our educational system now is that it's so it's so ratifying and validating. There's so we're so low to criticize and so and the students are so fragile with criticism that they they don't take the criticism well, yeah, we don't give it and, and you without some degree of what you're not quite getting right, you really don't know what you're capable of, right? And, and I think you know. But being but again, being critical is not that's not where you start. I think you start from the aspiration and the hope and the, you know, the actually, the joy of doing something. And then, you know, you take a step back and maybe take a little you know, artists historically had various techniques for judging their own work. Titian used to take one of his paintings and turn it away, turn it facing the wall so that he couldn't see it, and he would come back to it a month later. And, you know, because when he first painted, he thought it was the greatest thing ever painted, he would come back to it a month later and think, you know, I could have done some of those parts better, and you would work on it and fix it. And so, you know, the self criticism comes from this capacity to distance yourself from yourself, look at yourself almost as as hard as it is from the outside, yeah, try to see yourself as other people see you. Because I think in your own mind, you can kind of become completely self referential. And you know, that's that. These are all life skills. You know, I had to say this to somebody recently, but, you know, I think the thing you should get out of your education is learning how to learn and like you're talking about, essentially, how do you approach something new or challenging or different? Is has to do with essentially, how do you how do you know? Do you know how to grow and learn on your own?   Michael Hingson ** 42:44 Yeah, exactly, well, being an architect and so on. How did you end up going off and becoming a professor and and teaching? Yeah, a   David Mayernik ** 42:52 lot of architects do it. I have to say. I mean, there's always a lot of the people who are the kind of heroes when I was a student, were practicing architects who also taught and and they had a kind of, let's say, intellectual approach to what they did. They were conceptual. It wasn't just the mundane aspects of getting a building built, but they had some sense of where they fit, with respect to the culture, with respect to history and issues outside of architecture, the extent to which they were tied into other aspects of culture. And so I always had the idea that, you know, to be a full, you know, a fully, you know, engaged architect. You should have an academic, intellectual side to your life. And teaching would be an opportunity to do that. The only thing is, I didn't feel like I knew enough until I was older, in my 40s, to feel like I actually knew enough about what I was doing to be able to teach somebody else. A lot of architects get into teaching early, I think, before they're actually fully formed to have their own identities. And I think it's been good for me that I waited a while until I had a sense of myself before I felt like I could teach somebody else. And so there was, there was that, I mean, the other side of it, and it's not to say that it was just a day job, but one of the things I decided from the point of your practice is a lot of architects have to do a lot of work that they're not proud of to keep the lights on and keep the business operating. And I have decided for myself, I only really want to do work that I'm proud of, and in order to do that, because clients that you can work for and be you know feel proud of, are rather rare, and so I balanced teaching and practice, because teaching allowed me to ostensibly, theoretically be involved with the life of the mind and only work for people and projects that interested me and that I thought could offer me the chance to do something good and interesting and important. And so one I had the sense that I had something to convey I learned. Enough that I felt like I could teach somebody else. But it was also, for me, an opportunity to have a kind of a balanced life in which practice was compensated. You know that a lot of practice, even interesting practice, has a banal, you know, mundane side. And I like being intellectually stimulated, so I wanted that. Not everybody wants   Michael Hingson ** 45:24 that. Yeah, so you think that the teaching brings you that, or it put you in a position where you needed to deal with that?   David Mayernik ** 45:32 You know, having just retired, I wish there had been more of that. I really had this romantic idea that academics, being involved in academics, would be an opportunity to live in a world of ideas. You know? I mean, because when I was a student, I have to say we, after we came back from Rome, I got at least half of my education for my classmates, because we were deeply engaged. We debated stuff. We, you know, we we challenged each other. We were competitive in a healthy way and and I remember academics my the best part of my academic formation is being immensely intellectually rich. In fact, I really missed it. For about the first five years I was out of college, I really missed the intellectual side of architecture, and I thought going back as a teacher, I would reconnect with that, and I realized not necessarily, there's a lot about academics that's just as mundane and bureaucratic as practice can be so if you really want to have a satisfying intellectual life, unfortunately, you can't look to any institution or other people for it. You got to find it on your own.   46:51 Paperwork, paperwork,   David Mayernik ** 46:55 committee meetings, just stuff. Yeah, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 47:00 yeah. Yeah, which never, which never. Well, I won't say they never help, but there's probably, there's probably some valuable stuff that you can get, even from writing and doing, doing paperwork, because it helps you learn to write. I suppose you can look at it that way.   David Mayernik ** 47:16 No, it's true. I mean, you're, you're definitely a glass half full guy. Michael, I appreciate that's good. No. I mean, I, obviously, I always try to make get the most out of whatever experience I have. But, I mean, in the sense that there wasn't as much intellectual discourse, yeah, you know, as my I would have liked, yeah, and I, you know, in the practice or in the more academic side of architecture. Several years ago, somebody said we were in a post critical phase like that. Ideas weren't really what was driving architecture. It was going to be driven by issues of sustainability, issues of social structure, you know, essentially how people live together, issues that have to do with things that weren't really about, let's call it design in the esthetic sense, and all that stuff is super important. And I'm super interested in, you know, the social impact of my architecture, the sustainable impact of it, but the the kind of intellectual society side of the design part of it, we're in a weird phase where it that's just not in my world, we just it's not talked about a lot. You know,   Michael Hingson ** 48:33 it's not what it what it used to be. Something tells me you may be retired, but you're not going to stop searching for intellectual and various kinds of stimulation to help keep your mind active.   David Mayernik ** 48:47 Oh, gosh, no, no. I mean, effectively. I mean, I just stopped one particular job. I describe it now as quitting with benefits. That's my idea of what I retired from. I retired from a particular position in a particular place, but, but I haven't stopped. I mean, I'm certainly going to keep working. I have a very interesting design project in Switzerland. I've been working on for almost 29 years, and it's got a number of years left in it. I paint, I write, I give lectures, I you know, and you obviously have a rich life. You know, not being at a job. Doesn't mean that the that your engagement with the world and with ideas goes away. I mean, unless you wanted to, my wife's my wife had three great uncles who were great jazz musicians. I mean, some quite well known jazz musicians. And one of them was asked, you know, was he ever going to retire? And he said, retire to what? Because, you know, he was a musician. I mean, you can't stop being a musician, you know, you know, if, some level, if you're really engaged with what you do, you You never stop, really,   Michael Hingson ** 49:51 if you enjoy it, why would you? No, I   David Mayernik ** 49:54 mean, the best thing is that your work is your fun. I mean, you know, talking about, we talked about it. I. You that You know you're kind of defined by your work, but if your work is really what you enjoy, I mean, actually it's fulfilling, rich, enriching, interesting, you don't want to stop doing that. I mean, essentially, you want to do it as long as you possibly can. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 50:13 and it's and it's really important to do that. And I think, in reality, when you retire from a job, you're not really retiring from a job. You're retiring, as you said, from one particular thing. But the job isn't a negative thing at all. It is what you like to do.   David Mayernik ** 50:31 Yeah. I mean, there's, yeah, there's the things that you do that. I mean, I guess the job is the, if you like, the thing that is the, you know, the institution or the entity that you know, pays your bills and that kind of stuff, but the career or the thing that you're invested in that had the way you define yourself is you never stop being that person, that person. And in some ways, you know, what I'm looking forward to is a richer opportunity to pursue my own avenue of inquiry, and, you know, do things on my own terms, without some of the obligations I had   Michael Hingson ** 51:03 as a teacher, and where's your wife and all that.   David Mayernik ** 51:06 So she's with me here in LUCA, and she's she's had a super interesting life, because she she she studied. We, when we were together in New York, she was getting a degree in art history, Medieval and Renaissance studies in art history at NYU, and then she decided she really wanted to be a chef, and she went to cooking school in New York and then worked in a variety of food businesses in New York, and then got into food writing and well, food styling for magazines, making food for photographs, and then eventually writing. And through a strange series of connections and experiences. She got an opportunity to cook at an Art Foundation in the south of France, and I was in New York, and I was freelancing. I was I'd quit a job I'd been at for five years, and I was freelancing around, doing some of my own stuff and working with other architects, and I had work I could take with me. And you know, it was there was there was, we didn't really have the internet so much, but we had FedEx. And I thought I could do drawings in the south of France. I could do them in Brooklyn. So, so I went to the south of France, and it just happens to be that my current client from Switzerland was there at that place at that time, scouting it out for some other purpose. And she said, I hear you're architect. I said, Yeah. And I said, Well, you know, she said, I like, you know, classical architecture, and I like, you know, traditional villages, and we have a campus, and we need a master plan architect. And I was doing a master plan back in Delaware at that time, and my wife's you know, career trajectory actually enabled me to meet a client who's basically given me an opportunity to build, you know, really interesting stuff, both in Switzerland and in England for the last, you know, again, almost 29 years. And so my wife's been a partner in this, and she's been, you know, because she's pursued her own parallel interest. But, but our interests overlap enough and we share enough that we our interests are kind of mutually reinforcing. It's, it's been like an ongoing conversation between us, which has been alive and rich and wonderful.   Michael Hingson ** 53:08 You know, with everything going on in architecture and in the world in general, we see more and more technology in various arenas and so on. How do you think that the whole concept of CAD has made a difference, or in any way affected architecture. And where do you think CAD systems really fit into all of that?   David Mayernik ** 53:33 Well, so I mean this, you know, CAD came along. I mean, it already was, even when I was early in my apprenticeship, yeah, I was in Chicago, and there was a big for som in Chicago, had one of the first, you know, big computers that was doing some drawing work for them. And one of my, a friend of mine, you know, went to spend some time and figure out what they were capable of. And, but, you know, never really came into my world until kind of the late night, mid, mid to late 90s and, and, and I kind of resisted it, because I, the reason I got into architecture is because I like to draw by hand, and CAD just seemed to be, you know, the last thing I'd want to do. But at the same time, you, some of you, can't avoid it. I mean, it has sort of taken over the profession that, essentially, you either have people doing it for you, or you have to do it yourself, and and so the interesting thing is, I guess that I, at some point with Switzerland, I had to, basically, I had people helping me and doing drawing for me, but I eventually taught myself. And I actually, I jumped over CAD and I went to a 3d software called ArchiCAD, which is a parametric design thing where you're essentially building a 3d model. Because I thought, Look, if I'm going to do drawing on the computer, I want the computer to do something more than just make lines, because I can make lines on my own. But so the computer now was able to help me build a 3d model understand buildings in space and construction. And so I've taught myself to be reasonably, you know, dangerous with ArchiCAD and but the. Same time, the creative side of it, I still, I still think, and a lot of people think, is still tied to the intuitive hand drawing aspect and and so a lot of schools that gave up on hand drawing have brought it back, at least in the early years of formation of architects only for the the conceptual side of architecture, the the part where you are doodling out your first ideas, because CAD drawing is essentially mechanical and methodical and sort of not really intuitive, whereas the intuitive marking of paper With a pencil is much more directly connected to the mind's capacity to kind of speculate and imagine and daydream a little bit, or wander a little bit your mind wanders, and it actually is time when some things can kind of emerge on the page that you didn't even intend. And so, you know, the other thing about the computer is now on my iPad, I can actually do hand drawing on my iPad, and that's allowed me to travel with it, show it to clients. And so I still obviously do a lot of drawing on paper. I paint by hand, obviously with real paints and real materials. But I also have found also I can do free hand drawing on my iPad. I think the real challenge now is artificial intelligence, which is not really about drawing, it's about somebody else or the machine doing the creative side of it. And that's the big existential crisis that I think the profession is facing right now.   Michael Hingson ** 56:36 Yeah, I think I agree with that. I've always understood that you could do free hand drawing with with CAD systems. And I know that when I couldn't find a job in the mid 1980s I formed a company, and we sold PC based CAD systems to architects and engineers. And you know, a number of them said, well, but when we do designs, we charge by the time that we put into drawing, and we can't do that with a CAD system, because it'll do it in a fraction of the time. And my response always was, you're looking at it all wrong. You don't change how much you charge a customer, but now you're not charging for your time, you're charging for your expertise, and you do the same thing. The architects who got that were pretty successful using CAD systems, and felt that it wasn't really stifling their creativity to use a CAD system to enhance and speed up what they did, because it also allowed them to find more jobs more quickly.   David Mayernik ** 57:35 Yeah, one of the things it did was actually allow smaller firms to compete with bigger firms, because you just didn't need as many bodies to produce a set of drawings to get a project built or to make a presentation. So I mean, it has at one level, and I think it still is a kind of a leveler of, in a way, the scale side of architecture, that a lot of small creative firms can actually compete for big projects and do them successfully. There's also, it's also facilitated collaboration, because of the ability to exchange files and have people in different offices, even around the world, working on the same drawing. So, you know, I'm working in Switzerland. You know, one of the reasons to be on CAD is that I'm, you know, sharing drawings with local architects there engineers, and that you know that that collaborative sharing process is definitely facilitated by the computer.   Michael Hingson ** 58:27 Yeah, information exchange is always valuable, especially if you have a number of people who are committed to the same thing. It really helps. Collaboration is always a good thing,   David Mayernik ** 58:39 yeah? I mean, I think a lot of, I mean, there's always the challenge between the ego side of architecture, you know, creative genius, genius, the Howard Roark Fountainhead, you know, romantic idea. And the reality is that it takes a lot of people to get a building built, and one person really can't do it by themselves. And So collaboration is kind of built into it at the same time, you know, for any kind of coherence, or some any kind of, let's say, anything, that brings a kind of an artistic integrity to a work of architecture, mostly, that's got to come from one person, or at least people with enough shared vision that that there's a kind of coherence to it, you know. And so there still is space for the individual creative person. It's just that it's inevitably a collaborative process to get, you know, it's the it's the 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration. Side architecture is very much that there's a lot of heavy lifting that goes into getting a set of drawings done to get

Atop the 7 o'clock hour, we talk to National Federation of Republican Women President Julie Harris about the Texas Democrat legislators who have fled that state to try to avoid redistricting votes there.

August 5, 2025 ~ Julie Harris, National Federation of Republican Women President, joins Kevin with the latest on the civil warrants for the Texas Democrats that fled the state.

On this episode we get to meet Andra Wochesen, a teacher and then a coach. Andra received her college degree in kinesiology education. What is kinesiology, you may ask? Physical education. Andra will tell us more and how she progressed from years of teaching to coaching to help “entrepreneurs and leaders to be in their power and conviction so they land on bigger stages, command higher fees and create meaningful impact”. Andra focuses today on helping people understand themselves and their lives. She uses tools such as examining Akashic Records. We get to learn in detail what Andra does and how she accomplishes helping people gain insights into their existence and how to move forward.   I hope you find Andra's time with us informative and instructive.     About the Guest:   Andra supports entrepreneurs and leaders to be in their power and conviction, so they land on bigger stages, command higher fees and create meaningful impact. Purpose, Power & Presence.   Along with a 25 -year background in kinesiology and education, Andra is multi-certified as a coach, with enhanced training in energetic and embodiment techniques, including Law of Attraction, Reiki, Akashic Records, Tapping and Quantum Flow.   This unique combination of skills coupled with her intuitive and innate understanding of the body and energy and ability to uncover dormant soul gifts, allows her to support her clients in a deeply integrated way, creating lasting change and expedited results.   She has recently received a breast cancer diagnosis and is truly being asked to walk her talk as she faces the unexpected and a lot of unknowns. Part of her mission and purpose is to share her journey to support others, and though this is health related, how to apply this to any path people are currently walking. Ways to connect with Andra:   Website: https://www.andrawochesen.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andra-wochesen-purposepowerpresence/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andra_energycoach/# You-Tube: https://www.youtube.com/@andrawochesen To your listeners, here is a link for my Personal Power Activation Series https://andrawochesen.simplero.com/personalpoweractivation     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:28 We really appreciate you taking the time to listen to us or watch us and our guest Andra Wochesen who is going to talk to us about a variety of things, and one of the things that I will tell you is she has a degree in kinesiology, and she'll have to define that. I'm not going to, although I now know what it means and I know how to pronounce it, mostly because she told me. But I really am excited to have her be on the podcast today, because one of the things that I really enjoyed about and it's not necessarily the most enjoyable subject, but because of the things that she has done now in her life, she is facing personal tests to prove that what she teaches and coaches is real, because she's having to go through some of it, and I know that she will talk about that a little bit later. We'll get to it. But Andra, I want to thank you for being on a stoppable mindset.   Andra Wochesen ** 02:21 Thank you so much, Michael. I'm so happy to be here, and so love what you're about and how you show up in the world, and I'm so happy to be connected with like minded people making an impact, and happy to be connected to your audience. And I hope something I share today will be of service.   Michael Hingson ** 02:38 Well, I hope so, and I think that, we usually find that it is and we're we're really glad you're here to share it, which is as good as it gets. So I'd like to start by maybe learning about the early Andra growing up and so on. Why don't you tell us about some of that and kind of how that led you to maybe some of the things that you're doing now? Sure, sure.   Andra Wochesen ** 02:58 Yeah. I mean, yes, I'm the end places that I'm a coach, and I work with embodiment and energy. And I think the first years of my life were me being a very active child, being very adventurous, loving to have new experiences, very much being athletic. I was a competitive gymnast in my younger years. And yeah, I think I really enjoyed being in my body and using my body as a vehicle to sort of express myself. So, definitely active, definitely adventurous, definitely independent. And yeah, really enjoyed the experience of, yeah, going new places, seeing new people, and doing some things that challenge my body in big ways.   Michael Hingson ** 03:46 So what made you deviate from going into competitive gymnastics?   Andra Wochesen ** 03:51 Oh, I wasn't good enough. Oh, okay, yeah, I was good enough for where I was, but yeah, it was enough. I think, yeah, I think I stopped that around 11 or 12. Actually, it's quite a it's quite a vigorous sport. And yeah, I was quite aware of my capacity and my desire, actually, to, it takes a lot to get to that, to the caliber of like, Olympic athlete or something, right? So that wasn't, I wasn't good enough, and I didn't have, didn't desire to go down that path   Michael Hingson ** 04:21 well. And that's, of course, a significant part of it is there's a lot that you have to desire to do to really go down that path in whatever sport or whatever you want to compete in and be about. So I understand,   Andra Wochesen ** 04:35 yeah, yeah, yeah, that commitment and choice and yeah, I think, as you speak, about unstoppable, right? There is an element that requires so much conviction on our end to be able to really commit and follow through with whatever it is that we are wanting to follow through and commit with.   Michael Hingson ** 04:55 Well, so you say, around 11 or 12, you decided. That you weren't going to continue down that. What did you   Andra Wochesen ** 05:04 do? Oh, I mean, I continued to still be athletic and still played. I still did gymnastics. I was, you know, still quite good at it, so I did that through high school, but played a variety of other team sports. And I think, yeah, maybe define myself less on the athleticism, but still included it, and sort of brought in more of some other interests. I think that I had maybe more around, yeah, just travel friends. I mean, that's what you do in high school and university.   Michael Hingson ** 05:34 So where did you go to university? I   Andra Wochesen ** 05:39 went. I'm in Canada. So I went to McMaster, yeah, which is in Hamilton. It's a great school. Now, where is that? That's in Hamilton, which is I live in Toronto now. So Hamilton is about 45 minutes away. Hamilton is between, let's say, Toronto, Niagara Falls, the main cities, you would know. So, yeah, I went to McMaster for four years for my phys ed kinese degree, and then I went to Queen's University for my teaching degree. So that's sort of my educational background.   Michael Hingson ** 06:07 So you you got a teaching degree, did you want to go off and be a teacher? Or what did you want to do exactly? Or did you know   Andra Wochesen ** 06:15 I was a teacher? I did very strategically choose in my growing up, I think being athletic, I also coached teams. I also was a camp counselor, so I was very much involved in guiding other people. So I think especially in athletic pursuits, and even I mentioned this, even I did volunteer at the Canadian National Institute for the Blind and was a runner for someone there, helped them run track. So I think going into teaching, and especially phys ed teaching, made perfect sense. So I did. I did do that for 10 years, and then moved on to some other things.   Michael Hingson ** 06:56 So how long ago was it that you were a runner at CNIB, that   Andra Wochesen ** 07:01 was a long time ago. That was like, 30 years ago. Yeah, yes, that was like, sort of in my, I don't know, maybe early 20s, something like that. Okay, tell,   Michael Hingson ** 07:11 tell us a little bit more about how that. I'm just curious how that process worked. So you, you worked at the you volunteered at the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, and you and so people wanted to run. And how did, how did you make that work?   Andra Wochesen ** 07:26 So I was a guide runner. So I think I did a very, very I work with different people. There various people. And I think one, one of the young men really wanted to run track, and they had a big event at, I believe, was Variety Village, I believe. And so it was he wanted to do, I think it was 400 meters again, excuse me, it's been a long time. So it was a run. And so, yeah, to be able, I was a guide runner, so I ran, held his hands, but he obviously did the work and ran. But I was there as a as a runner to support that.   Michael Hingson ** 08:00 But you had to be able to run fast enough to keep up with whatever speed he was in produce, yeah, for   Andra Wochesen ** 08:05 sure, absolutely, yeah, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 08:09 yeah. I know people in the United States who are blind runners and do work with with people to guide. And of course, that's the whole point. But obviously, the the guides have to be in good enough physical shape also to make sure that they're able to let the person run at their own pace and hopefully set world records. I don't know who has but you know, nevertheless,   Andra Wochesen ** 08:35 yes, to let them have their full self expression right of what they were wanting to do, and your eye was just there on the side to make sure that he was able to run as fast as and get where he wanted to go and achieve the results he wanted to achieve.   Michael Hingson ** 08:52 Could when you were when you were acting as a guide. How did that work? That is to say, I'm assuming that the person couldn't necessarily run totally on their own. How did, how did you keep people running straight or where they needed to go again?   Andra Wochesen ** 09:09 It's a long time. I believe it was just hands right, and my hands in front, so that, or maybe at the side right, just so that there was a hand. There was a tactile component. It wasn't voice. It was definitely cut, so it was just more like guiding, to make sure that he was able to stay no well, he knew when to start, but to stay within the lines to be able to follow the track, and then obviously, to be able to cross the finish line.   Michael Hingson ** 09:35 Yeah, because they, they didn't have ropes or anything between lanes that he could follow. So he needed a person, or she, depending on who you guided, they needed your assistance. Because the bottom line is that the the tracks don't have ropes or anything like that to divide the various lanes. Yeah,   Andra Wochesen ** 09:54 yes, yeah. So it was, there may be different things. Now, you know, I'm not sure, but I'm   Michael Hingson ** 09:59 aware that there are. But I'm not a runner, so   Andra Wochesen ** 10:01 yeah, yeah. So it's a very Yeah. It's a very Yeah. I've been involved in that sort of stuff, whether it's been volunteer or paid in my whole life, basically helping other people to sort of reach their goals and to fully self Express. And so I think that's, you know, definitely been a piece of what's led me to the work that I do today. Mm, hmm.   Michael Hingson ** 10:27 So, so you taught, where did you teach? For 10 years,   Andra Wochesen ** 10:32 I taught mainly. I taught in middle schools. I was, yeah, thanks. So I taught grade seven and eight. Mostly grade seven, little bit of grade six. I last year I taught grade four. I taught phys ed. The whole time I was like the the head of phys ed, so I coached all the teams and organized the track meets and did things like that. But I also had an under second teachable of French. So I actually taught French as well as math and English. You know, those weren't my favorite, but I Oh, yeah, I did love teaching, yeah, phys ed and health health, actually, I loved because that's very much like, it's kind of like coaching, right? It's actually helping, yeah, I love those, those classes as well, with that age group.   Michael Hingson ** 11:16 Now, my wife, my late wife, was a teacher for 10 years, and she always said that the students she liked best were third graders, because they were old enough that they could make some decisions, but they were also young enough that they were able to be influenced, and they hadn't got so set in their ways that they were problem students like even from fourth grade on, did you have a favorite grade?   Andra Wochesen ** 11:43 Yeah, not grade seven. That's why I'm not doing it.   Michael Hingson ** 11:46 So I would agree with you,   Andra Wochesen ** 11:49 yeah, so that was the bulk of my teaching career was grade seven. So they're not easy, and they don't necessarily want to be there. So yeah, it didn't feel like the most aligned path. I was actually certified to teach high school, but it was very hard to get into high school teaching here. And I think if I would have, I probably would still be doing that, because it's a little bit more pure in the phys ed component. So yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:15 well, the you know, I wanted to be a teacher, and ended up going in different directions anyway, but still, I think that I do get to teach. And I think even this podcast offers teaching moments which is, which is pretty good, but I appreciate what you and Karen, my wife, say about all of that, because it is a it is a big challenge. Do you think that one of her comments and was that parents aren't really becoming as involved as they should be, and so they they kind of treat teachers like babysitters, and then the kids go home and they do whatever they're going to do, but they don't really as actively provide a lot of the guidance that they should. Did you find that up in Canada as well?   Andra Wochesen ** 13:05 I would say again, it's been 20 years now. Say that for the most part, it just really depends. Like, a lot of parents were very engaged and very and then I think, yeah, there were kids that were challenging at school because they didn't have a lot of structure or support at home. So it's a, it's a, it's a, really a. It's a privilege to be a teacher, to be taking, not necessarily taking care of people's children, but you are, on some level, being an influence for them. And so yeah, I would say for the most part, there was a lot of parental support, but I know that's not always the case, and I do think, yeah, there's some kids who had not very much parental support and required more at school.   Michael Hingson ** 13:52 Karen had challenges with a lot of kids until she realized something, and I don't even remember what caused it to happen, but she taught at a school where, as she put it, there were a lot of latch key kids. That is, they they were really responsible for themselves. The parents worked and so on. They went. The kids went home at the end of the day, and they were on their own. And when she realized that kids weren't going home necessarily to total parental supervision and so on, and that they in fact, the children were learning how to be responsible to a large degree on their own. That kind of changed her view and the way she interacted with kids, and apparently became a whole lot more effective and a whole lot more of a teacher who could exert a positive influence on the kids.   Andra Wochesen ** 14:46 That's great. I mean, I think ultimately, we're all sovereign beings, even if we're children. And I think, yeah, whatever situations we are, sort of handed Yeah, I think there's a lot of. Um growth in that, and I think being able to support that is what we're what we're here to do, whether we're a formal teacher or a guide or a podcast host, right? We're all here to sort of meet people where they're at and also in their greatness and also in their challenges, and then also in their capacity.   Michael Hingson ** 15:20 People are where they are, and we don't really have the right, much less all of the gifts to necessarily force people to change how they behave and so on. And I think the best that we can do is to try to set positive examples and and either people will see that, or kids will see that, or they won't.   Andra Wochesen ** 15:43 Yeah, one of the biggest things, and you know, it's part of the work I do now around seeing people's gifts. That's part of the akashics work that I do. But I know, even as a teacher, one of the greatest strengths that supported me was that I chose to focus on the strengths in the children and really reflect that to them, and have them see that within themselves. And everybody has different approaches. Some people would be focused on, like, you need to improve here. This needs to happen. And of course, I think we all have areas of growth and improvement, but I believe, and I've seen, I've literally been in this field for 30 years, whether it's teaching, you know, young people or adults, we I have found that most people thrive when they're recognized in their greatness and their gifts, not in their areas of weakness. How do you do that? How do I do that? So, I mean, I think I did it innately. When I was a teacher, I just intuited that that was the it's easy. We can all see people's gifts, and we can all choose to focus on those gifts. We can do that in our personal relationships. We can choose. We always get choice in terms of what we focus on. So I believe that there's we all have that innate ability, whether we exercise it or not, is is up to us. And then I have, you know, certified in some different modalities that help me help people uncover what some of those gifts are. I originally did something called the Passion Test, where I help people really distill what their true passions were. And so that's a really, really helpful tool. And then I also do Akashic Records, which is like a an energetic database, which we can talk about further if you want or not. Doesn't matter, but it's, it's a I'm able to access people's records for them and really discern what their top level gifts are, and then share that with them. And so when I'm sharing it with them, it's not usually like they have no idea they most people know what their innate gifts are, but when it's reflected in a certain way from a soul level perspective, it's a very validating experience, and it helps to reignite those gifts in people, so that they are then very self aware of what those gifts are and how they can use them to both impact their themselves and their career and their family, right? There's there's lots of ways to apply our gifts if we really tune in to what they are,   Michael Hingson ** 18:18 whether it's children or adults, there's always a lot to be said for the whole concept of validation. If you are really validating someone, especially when you're dealing with their gifts and you're validating them, you're praising them, you're encouraging them for what they are and what they do, that has to count for a lot. I would think.   Andra Wochesen ** 18:38 I think so. I think you're speaking to a deeper level than the ego or the mind. You're actually speaking to the depth of some who someone is, and they feel that. And there's a, there's a, I'm going to say, like an embodied response to that. There's a deep feeling.   Michael Hingson ** 18:56 Well, so you taught for 10 years, and then what, what made you decide to deviate from just being a professional teacher in the classroom, as it were, or or going around the field, running,   Andra Wochesen ** 19:08 yes, chair, yeah, I felt like actually had a bit of a rough I'm not, I don't need to get into that. But it was, I had a tough year about year seven or eight, and it just kind of flipped the dial for me in terms of, I'm not sure this is what I want to do with the rest of my life. So I did stick it out for a couple more years. It's a lot of education and a lot of experience that I was working with, and so I did try some different things, taught different grades, but ultimately I realized that it wasn't, it was a little soul sucking for me, and in some ways, and I knew that there was more or a better way for me to actually use the gifts that I have. And so I just, I chose to to leave, which is not that common. I know it's a little different. Different in the US in terms of teaching and salaries and things like that. In Canada, I would say it's a very, it's a very good profession to be in. It's a very, it's a good salary. It's so it wasn't easy to leave it, but my higher knowing knew that it was the right thing for me to do.   Michael Hingson ** 20:20 So what did you then go do?   Andra Wochesen ** 20:23 So then I went, I became a Pilates instructor, and so that is movement education. And so I got to use my phys ed background and my kinesiology background to work with bodies. And I also trained the new teachers. Because, yeah, I had an expertise in teaching, and so I was a trainer of teachers. So yeah, I was involved in certifying new teachers. So yeah, did that, and then I worked one on one with clients, which was a really nice change for me, coming from a classroom of 30 people, being able to work with people in a one on one capacity and just have that so that felt very Yeah, it felt very aligned for me to be able to have a one on one connection and to be able to serve people really deeply, and yeah, I didn't have to mark tests and all that kind of stuff, right?   Michael Hingson ** 21:19 There's something to be said for that, yes, for sure, and you didn't have to make out report cards at the end of the year. Yes, yes, yeah. There's a   Andra Wochesen ** 21:27 lot of work that goes in there. You know, people talk a lot about summers off, but there's a lot of stuff that happens that is quite, quite labor intensive in teaching.   Michael Hingson ** 21:37 My niece is a kindergarten teacher. Actually, this year she's teaching pre kindergarten, but she would definitely agree with you, and talks about all the things that they have to do during the summer and all the preparation and and more important nowadays, at least down here, the amount of money that she has to spend out of her own salary just to buy supplies that the school district, for whatever reason, doesn't have funding to provide, and the teachers spend a fair amount of money keeping their students engaged with the things that they have to buy, that they know that the students need, but that the district doesn't provide.   Andra Wochesen ** 22:17 Yeah, I mean, I think that just, I can't speak obviously, to your country and how you do things, or what, what the what's involved. But I think it speaks to the desire that I'm going to say, all people have to support others. But I think teachers specifically, not even specifically, but teachers do have a big passion for helping people. And so I think that just speaks to the level that they're willing to go to in order to really support the next generation. So I think there is such a there's such a gift in and I hope that more and more people will appreciate teachers, because I think it's they are very vital, I think in shaping lots of things so well.   Michael Hingson ** 23:04 I think to at least a degree, most people like to teach that is to say they, if somebody asks them a question, Will will take the time oftentimes, to answer. They'll explain why they do what they do, or they'll explain whatever the question is about. I know, when I was in professional sales and managing a sales force, one of the things that I told every person that I hired was, for the next year, at least, you're a student, don't hesitate to ask questions, because the people who are your customers and your clients, if you're asking good, intelligent questions of them, they will want to answer you and engage you, and that can only help you. And what it what you do further down the line with them as well.   Andra Wochesen ** 23:52 Yeah, I think, I believe that we're all here to light the path for those behind us in whatever way we choose to do that.   Michael Hingson ** 24:01 Yeah. Yeah. And it is a, it is an art to do it well. And not everybody is a great teacher, but I think a lot of people do like to import, impart knowledge, at least to some degree, which is great, sure. Yeah. So you are Pilates instructor for a while, and then what did you do? Well?   Andra Wochesen ** 24:19 Then I Yeah, again, my soul always wants to expand, and I think that I felt like it was good, but it wasn't the full use of my gifts. And so that's when I sort of went down the coaching path. I realized I liked the one on one connection. I realized I'm very intuitive in general, but very intuitive with the body. So when I was working with my Pilates clients, I was able to almost tune into sort of, I'm going to say, even emotional blocks. Or I could tune into why their bodies weren't functioning the way they wanted to function. And so it just naturally evolved into desiring to bring a coaching element into the work that I did. And so for a number of years, I did both. Growth, and then after about 15 years of being at the teaching Pilates, I decided to just transition full time to coaching. So that's what I've been doing for the last, I don't know, five or six years full time   Michael Hingson ** 25:13 well, so tell us more about that. What you do, and I know you've talked and referred to a few times the Akashic records and so on. So don't hesitate to talk about some of that as well.   Andra Wochesen ** 25:26 Yeah, I think really what I do is help people connect to their innate power and their innate presence, so that they and their deepest gifts. So those are probably the deepest things. Purpose, power, presence is sort of how I label it, and within that, it's their sole gifts, what they're here to do, what their purpose is, what they want to really contribute on the planet. That's really who I'm helping so often it's entrepreneurs, sometimes it's leaders, sometimes it's high profile people in their industry, and so really I'm helping them connect to the depth of who they are really so that they can express that in the work that they do. So for some people, yeah, it's a it's about creating a bigger presence, a bigger platform, creating more impact, getting in front of more audiences, being able to command higher fees. All of this comes from a deep connection to your own knowing of who you are and what you how you're designed to serve. And so I really that's the it's the crux of what I do is you can hopefully see the thread throughout my whole life is really around helping people connect to who they really are at their core, how, what their innate gifts are, how they want to share those gifts, and how they can use those gifts to not only create a better, more aligned or whatever, what's what I want to say, prosperous life Experience for themselves through I love working with people who want to do what they love, right? That's really people who are trailblazers, people who want to create a new path, people who want to create meaning, want to create impact. And that's it's a I love it, and it's not an easy path. And so I really help people break through anything, holding them back from really going for it, because so many people that I work with, we are blazing new paths. Right? You do have to sell yourself. You do have to make your own opportunities. You do have to create your own platform. You have to do that in your podcast, right? There's everybody is we are here to do, I think this is what we are all here to do, is to really share our gifts in the biggest way possible. And yeah, sometimes people need help to be able to show that fully and to be able to shine as brightly as they're designed to to shine so that they can, yeah, receive Yeah, bigger opportunities, bigger platforms, more ability to continue on the path that they're on.   Michael Hingson ** 28:03 Do you find that there are a number of people who don't really know where they want to go or what they want to do? They're they're kind of being a little bit more aimless than they really need to be.   Andra Wochesen ** 28:17 It's interesting. I'm sure there are. When I first started, I was more of a life purpose coach, so I did, did sort of interact with people who are kind of lost and maybe a bit directionless. And so I think absolutely there, I don't even like that word that sounds very judgmental, right, just unsure of what they want to do. And so I think absolutely there are lots of people, and what I believe, and what I see now is that people wouldn't, who come to me wouldn't say that they're lost, but they something's not quite working, or they are ready for a next iteration. I believe we're always expanding and evolving, and so is our purpose and our direction, right? And so and sometimes we're going down a path and it works out really well, and we expand it. And sometimes we're going down a path and it doesn't work out so well, or we get a roadblock, as you know, I have one right now that kind of comes into our experience, and it causes us to course correct. So I feel like there's a lot of course correction next iteration. And to me, I use the words always elevation and expansion, because I think we are designed to continually evolve and expand. And so I think it's yeah, there's, there's all levels of people on the spectrum in terms of, like, knowing what I'm going to do with my life, or how I want to share in the world   Michael Hingson ** 29:30 well. And there's nothing wrong with the whole concept of life is all about expanding and exploring.   Andra Wochesen ** 29:39 Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. So   Michael Hingson ** 29:42 there's, there's nothing wrong with that, and also developing an ongoing strong desire to learn. The people that I find the most challenging to deal with are the ones who decide they know it all and they don't have any. Thing to learn, because they probably have the most to learn.   Andra Wochesen ** 30:03 Of course, of course, yeah, there's such a gift in the openness to Yeah. I'm using the word evolve, but learn, expand, grow, all of it's the same, right? It's like, there's, there's, yeah. It's, for me, it's one of my biggest values. And I think, I think there are a lot of people who prioritize growth, and then there are other people who don't. So it's choice, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 30:31 oh, I hear you. I understand what you're saying. Tell me more about the whole concept of the Akashic records. Oh,   Andra Wochesen ** 30:37 sure, sure, yeah, of course. Yeah. So I told you we'd bring it up. Yeah. So the Akashic records are an energetic database of our soul level information, and so it's like we all have akashics, and it's, it's our soul level information we can all access, and you may even access this information yourself in a meditation, or you receive some guidance on something, but you may be actually in your Akashic records. And so our cash checks sort of have our lifetimes of like lessons of opportunities for growth. Our gifts are it's like it's literally a soul level database of information. And so you can access, we can each access our own, but I am certified to go into people's akashics with their permission, on their behalf, and sort of retrieve relevant information to support them on their life's journey. So that's really, yeah. How do you do that? Well, it's a, yeah, it's quite it's a step by step. I mean, it's a certification. So I'm really tuning in. So there's a whole series of I'm going to say, questions that I ask, and first I get someone's birth date, full name, full name, full current name, full name at birth, date of birth, place of birth, so that's really key, so that I am accessing the right soul. And then there are a series of questions that I ask to determine whether the soul wants me to access this information. And then, yeah, most of the time, I'm kind of going in with very specific questions around soul gifts. But sometimes people come to me with very specific questions, but usually it's some version of like, what's keeping me stuck or I want to get here, or how can I use my gifts in a better way? Or is this a i can even do Akashic records for businesses? So Right? Which is the most aligned business opportunity, which is the most best way to market? What I do? Right? We we have different gifts ourselves. So again, just for me, I am not designed to market, but I'm very good for people to experience me. So I I'm good when I'm on a video, or if I lead a workshop, or if I have a conversation with someone, so when people have an experience, or if they read a Client Testimonial, so that's for me, the way my soul is designed to market. Your soul might not be designed that way at all, right? And so it's really good to have we can get all of this information that actually helps us be more aligned, more successful, more prosperous, right? We can actually be like we have a blueprint. We actually have a soul blueprint that will help us do the best that we possibly can in this lifetime. Mm,   Michael Hingson ** 33:31 hmm. How did you learn to do that?   Andra Wochesen ** 33:35 I mean, it was a certification process. So it was a called Soul realignment. That's where I learned, and it was a numerous, numerous courses, numerous practice clients, like any, like, all of my coaching certification, right? There's, um, yeah, there's a lot of people call them, and it's all fine. Everybody can do a lot of people will call themselves a coach, but, and people can be good coaches, but there's actually coach training that people go through. And there's hundreds and hundreds of practice client hours where you actually are learning sort of in the field, just as I did as a teacher. So yeah, it's just another one of the I'm going to say pieces that I bring to my coaching. So I just sort of integrate this all into my sessions with clients.   Michael Hingson ** 34:21 Got it. So there are places where you actually take these courses, or how does that work? I   Andra Wochesen ** 34:27 have done all of my training online, okay, all of it online from all over the world, actually. Yeah, that's the beauty of the internet, right? It's, it's yeah. I've done, yeah, I've done all of my practice and some stuff in person, for sure, I've done some stuff in person, but I've done a lot of, even all of my coaching. Now, I do a few in person retreats, but most of it is virtual. Most of it is zoom coaching. And I didn't know if I would like it, but I do. It's you can actually form quite a nice connection with people via the internet, right?   Michael Hingson ** 34:59 Do you. You're able to to establish as good a connection, doing it through the internet as you would, and as you do, if you're actually conducting an in person event,   Andra Wochesen ** 35:11 you know, yes, I'd say in some ways more so, and then in some ways less so. So I think there are, there are in person, there's, there's something really beautiful in being in someone else's energy, me being in theirs, and they're being in mine, and very also hands. My hands are very, very hands on. So that can be very helpful to have that presence. But I also find online, there can be a spaciousness that actually allows people almost to open up more, because they actually have their own space. So I have, yeah, I've been doing both for years, and I enjoy both. I'm going to say that, and I don't not just about me enjoying it. The benefits for my clients are both in person and virtual, or I would say equal   Michael Hingson ** 36:04 when the pandemic began and we started doing so many things virtually, for me, personally, I never feared it, because we even in an in person environment. I'm not, I don't how do I say this in a positive way? I look at the person, I see the person, but the way I see the person is not physically, necessarily, with the eyes, in in any different way, virtually than I would if I'm doing this in person, and I find that I'm able to interact with people well through zoom. I think Zoom is the more most accessible of the various conferencing technologies is out there, but I think that if you work at it, you can establish a good relationship through zoom, and you can do the kinds of work that you need to do. Unfortunately, too many people talk about it in such a way that they fear it, or they just become tired of doing things in a way that's different than what they're used to, which is totally in person, and that's detracting them from maybe having as positive an experience as they could   Andra Wochesen ** 37:21 Yeah, I agree that's well said, and I think, I think it's always about presence. And so when, yeah, when we're connecting on the internet, it's not, it's a machine or it's, it's whatever it is, right? But it's you showing up fully, making eye contact with people, not being distracted, being fully present, which is what actually allows people to feel seen and feel heard, and I think that it also allows you to be accessing people and opportunities all over the world, right? And so I will even say, when I first started doing this, there was a lot of people, especially when I started doing working more with entrepreneurs, they're like, I'm busy. I don't really have time to, like, drive across the city and come to your office and meet with you. You know, can we do this? And so it actually is very time efficient, right? You don't have to travel you. You are able to fit lots of things into your day, right? So I think there's, there's real benefits to it. And I think again, it's ultimately how present people are a computer or in person.   Michael Hingson ** 38:37 It's, it's all about, in part, accepting a different way of doing things, perhaps than you're used to, and accepting that it may not be any less equal to do it in a different way than the way you would normally do something. That is to say, is it really worse? Is it really different to do it virtually? Or can it really be just as much an equivalent kind of thing? And I think that that is mostly a matter of what we're what we choose to accept. Now, for me, there are challenges with things like doing virtual presentations with Zoom, if people don't communicate in a way that I can fully understand, or if they're sharing screens and don't describe what's on the screen. But the reality is that's just as true if I'm sitting in an in person environment and people are displaying slides and doing other things where they don't describe it. So it comes down to the same thing you can accomplish if you do it right.   Andra Wochesen ** 39:47 Yeah, and I think it comes down like what we said before, what where your focus is? Are you focusing on the gifts of something or the negative areas? Just like we were talking about kids gifts. In school, right? So it's like, if you can see what are the benefits to this virtual experience, if your focus is there, every you know what we focus on expands and where we direct our our focus is what informs how we feel. And so I think if we are choosing to look for the benefits of whatever we are, whatever situation we're in, you'll find them right. And the more you focus on them, the more they'll expand right   Michael Hingson ** 40:28 well. So you referred a couple of times, and I did at the very beginning a little bit to, I think, as you put it, you've had some things that have challenged your path and that you've had to work through, especially as late. Want to talk about some of that.   Andra Wochesen ** 40:44 Yeah. I mean, I yeah, I had to wait until I was ready to share this piece. But I feel like part of my mission and purpose is to support, is to share my journey to support other people. And so I think there's my journey as an entrepreneur that supports people, and this is now a journey with breast cancer, and so it's a health journey that I didn't expect to be sharing with people, and I have had to, obviously decide when and how I want to share it. So, yeah, I was diagnosed in early February and so, and I have yet to have treatment. So I think the reason I thought it was important to even share this is for people even to be able to relate to anything that they receive. So I'm calling it like how to navigate a difficult diagnosis with grace. So I'm not even at the treatment stage. I'm in the unknown, and I've been in the unknown for three months now, and I have been in the known that I have cancer, so I've actually had to hold the fact that I have cancer in my body, but not have any treatment yet for three months. So there's there's something in that being able to hold the unknown and the unexpected and be able to walk my talk, right, which is to maintain my center and my groundedness within myself and not get pulled into a freak out place of like, why aren't they acting faster? Why is this taking so long? And this, is this going to be spreading because they're not doing anything? So I think there's a there's the piece around that that I think I wanted to offer and share, I think, and I think, um, yeah, it's it. What I really realized for myself is, um, I was like, Oh, I'm going to be the person who really navigates this was with grace, and I'm going to be inspirational in this. And then I really realized, and then there were days where I was like, Oh, I'm the opposite of inspirational right now. I am like, grumpy, I'm crying, I'm mad, and I'm like, and then I kind of realized that actually that is inspirational, and that is handling a difficult diagnosis. And so one of the things I do teach people is really to feel what is there and to actually tune into your body. And so I think this journey has actually, and it's just beginning, right? It's not, I'm not even meeting with a surgeon tomorrow for hopefully next steps, but I've had four biopsies, I've had a lot of things. I've had a lot of invasive procedures to determine what next steps are. And so, yeah, and so it's just finding this balance, I think, between continuing. So today, it's like, I have a client. This morning, I had another call, and then now I'm on a podcast, and then tomorrow I'm seeing the surgeon, right? So it's, it's being able to and then my husband's actually going for surgery the next day. So it's being able to navigate all of these things at once. And yeah, on some level, I want to just say, like allowing I'm really just allowing myself to be where I am, and some days I am great, and doing a podcast and coaching clients, because that fills me up. And then there are other days where I'm so angry and I'm so sad and there's some fear, and so it's and then so I feel like those two pieces, it's like allowing the hard pieces to be there, and then also having a knowing that there's a higher path and purpose for this. I don't know exactly. I already know I'm growing and expanding because of this, and I know there will be more. And then I think just the third piece I want to share is that my intuition has always been strong, but it's non negotiable now. And so I again, I'm just offering this for your listeners, right? Just tuning into how to tune into your own inner voice in terms of, what do I need right now? What treatment do I want to pursue? There's a lot of different pieces, and there are a lot of different voices that can be out there, but really the power of having this deep connection to yourself. Truth and trusting yourself to or God or spirit or source, however you want to see it, to help guide the process.   Michael Hingson ** 45:08 When you say your intuition is non negotiable, what do you mean by that?   Andra Wochesen ** 45:13 Listening to my intuitions for that would have been better way to say it. Listening to my intuition is non negotiable. So I will Intuit, if I'm able to work today, I will Intuit I've been intuiting that my body just wants citrus right now, and I'm just, I'm just giving it that, and I have actually learned that that's actually really helpful for cancer cells. So this is me intuiting this long before I heard this information. So it's tuning in and hearing this information and then acting on it. And so, yeah, I think it's it's just we all have intuition, and I think in times like this, we have to get still and get quiet and make sure that we're listening to the inner guidance that we are receiving.   Michael Hingson ** 46:01 So you say you got diagnosed in February, so it's been two months going on three. Why is it taking so long? Maybe it's not, but why is it taking so long to get treatment? Or is this typical?   Andra Wochesen ** 46:16 I don't like, I don't think there is typical. So that's one thing I would say. And I think this surgeon just wants to be very thorough. So for me personally, I mean, this is maybe too much information, but I have dense breasts, so it's very hard for him to see. He doesn't want to just go in. There is cancer there, but he needed to do other biopsies and do other testing, other MRIs to see if there was more so that he doesn't have to operate cut once or whatever they say, Right? He's like, he wants to go in and do take care of everything that needs to be taken care of, right? And so he's doing his due diligence. And so that just takes some time, right? Takes time to get in for appointments. It takes time to get results for appointments.   Michael Hingson ** 47:04 It's a it's a process. I know I can relate to, to what you're saying. I had over the past few years, and it was growing worse pain, especially in my left arm, and I finally talked to my doctor about it. I was going in to just have some standard blood draws and a couple of vaccinations in December. And I mentioned to the doctor this was going on. And I said, What do we do to try to figure this out? And he said, Well, put a couple other blood tests in just to see what, what might show up. And I find that my doctor is as a pretty bright guy, and so he didn't really go into much detail, other than we'll do blood tests and see, well, turns out that one of the blood tests that he ordered was for a heart enzyme called troponin that is produced by the heart when it's not behaving properly. And so on December 23 I learned that my troponin level was at 1100 92 when normally it should be between zero and 20. And I was taken off to an emergency room. We were actually still at the clinic getting vaccinations. When they had done the blood draws and they stat they just did them right away. They did the tests and got the results anyway. The problem was that when they when they did the tests and the blood tests, it took a day, even though they took me right to an emergency room and I sat there for a day, literally before they did an angiogram and a an echocardiogram to determine that there was a bad heart valve, and then nobody did anything with the information. And what so what they should have done was to have me sign forms to send them to my doctor, or given me copies of the CDs with the images to take to the doctor. And nobody talked about doing any of that, and nobody did any of that, and literally, it was like over a month before the doctor even got the information. And nobody seemed to be worried about it in the doctor's environment, which was at the clinic where I had all my other stuff done, or at the bigger hospital related to it. And it was just very strange, and then when they finally did get the information, even then there wasn't a lot of urgency. And for me, it wasn't a matter of being so much angry as puzzlement about why there wasn't a more of an emergency. You got a bad heart valve. It could stop anytime, right? Anyway, it. Took three months before they finally did do an operation and put in an artificial valve. So that was done in March of this year. So it was basically three months after the the initial diagnosis, and now everything is fine, but it is. I know that for me, what I chose to do was not panic. I chose not to be stressed. So during the time I was in the emergency room for that day, I found lots of ways to be entertained by listening to other people. And I had a couple things to listen to. I had recorded books and so on, but it was much more entertaining to listen to other people around me. And all the way up through the surgery, I chose not to be stressed, and it was a little bit tempting to not get too angry because they were taking so long. But still, my choice was not to be worried by all that, because that could only make matters worse. And when we did the surgery, I came right out of it, and started joking with the doctors right away, and they didn't believe that I was coming out of the anesthetic so fast, but I did and and we had a lot of fun with it, but it is, it is interesting. We do have the ability to make choices, and we can choose to move forward in a positive way or not. And I think if we don't choose to do that, and we we allow ourselves to be controlled by our fears, that's really where too many times, we have too many problems that we don't deal with nearly as well as we can.   Andra Wochesen ** 51:36 Yeah, I think choice is key, right? We have a choice what we think. We have a choice how we feel. And I do want to say I'm a big advocate of positive mindset, but I'm also a very big advocate of feeling your feelings. And so I think there's a difference between true feelings and feelings where we create a story around the feelings, and I think it's, I just really want to voice that today, in terms of people not pasting over feelings. I think there's a, yeah, there's a place for all of it. I think getting stuck in negativity or bad feelings or hard feelings is not where we want to be, but suppressing them if they're there, is also not a good place to be. And I think in fact, for me, in this I can be elevated very easily, because it's what I do for a living. But I think me being much more vocal about the challenges of this or the anger, has actually opened up a stronger conviction in me that is actually opening up more power in my expression. And so I feel I just really wanted to presence that in this moment, because I think it's really key to be yes, obviously choosing, choosing our focus and seeing. We talked about that many times today, about seeing the brightness or seeing the gifts and seeing the positives. But I do think it's really important for people to feel what they need to feel. So just wanted to presence that it's what I do all the time with people, and it's one it's what I'm doing with myself.   Michael Hingson ** 53:24 Yeah, and that's why you're walking the talk and you're succeeding. How is faith imperative when navigating challenges like life, challenges like what you're facing now?   Andra Wochesen ** 53:37 Well, I think I remember one talk you said when you were in the World Trade Center and just said, like God said to you, go here or stay calm. I mean, I don't want to misquote you, but it was, I really could feel the truth of that. And so I think there is a higher power, a higher voice, whatever you want to call it, whether it is God, source, spirit, universe, Higher Self, everybody has different language for it. And I think if we can tune in and believe that things are happening for us versus to us, or that there is guidance that's available for us, it's, I think it's what I think we needed. It's, I feel like sometimes it's the only thing that will get us through the hard times, right, is really believing in, yeah, something bigger than us in our own capacity to handle things and and I'm going to say and cultivating that especially in times of challenge. Because I think when we're in times of challenge, it's easier to lose faith. And I actually think we need to double down on faith when in our in our most challenging moments.   Michael Hingson ** 54:42 What is faith?   Andra Wochesen ** 54:46 Well, that's everybody that I can't speak to that, right? That's your I'm speaking to it in my perspective, I think faith is belief in something bigger than you. I think it's faith is. Something unseen, right, something that has not yet manifested. It's believing in something that's not yet in front of you, right? So I can and choose where to place my faith, right? And you get to choose where to place it, so Right, right?   Michael Hingson ** 55:18 But you're continuing, even with the breast cancer and so on. You're continuing to coach, right?   Andra Wochesen ** 55:22 I am, until otherwise I've everybody in my world has to be flexible, because obviously I it's unknown for me in terms of what and I will never show up for a session when I'm not at my fullest capacity. So it just depends on, you know, what that looks like? You know, if I'm recovering from surgery, I'm going to take some time for myself. If I'm in chemotherapy, I'm probably not going to feel very good for certain days, so I'm not going to coach on those days. So it's about, again, me intuiting what I need for me and what serves me, and then making sure that anybody who comes into my world has a very good understanding of that.   Michael Hingson ** 56:03 Oh, can people who are experiencing this podcast with us today apply all of these lessons in their own lives and so on going forward?   Andra Wochesen ** 56:13 Well, I think it's like anything we talked about a lot of things, and I think it's whatever is landing with someone is what they're meant to hear. So there I, you know, very specifically, gave three things around my cancer diagnosis, which I'll reiterate, for people to apply, because I think it's like three steps see the higher perspective of whatever situation or circumstance that you're in that feels like a challenge, whether that is a work challenge, a relationship challenge, a health challenge. Number two, I think, is tuning in to your intuitive guidance, and let's say faith in that container, in that number two. And then I think number three is allowing yourself to express the humanness, which I talked about here, right? Allowing yourself to feel what you feel. Yes, choose the higher perspective when you can. But there are times where tears need to flow, or where you are angry, and it's not about taking out anger on someone else. It's about finding a tool to be able to help you release that anger or be able to express it. So there's, there's lots of things that we can do for that. So I think it's like, yeah, I hope that people can whatever situation they're going through right now that feels even if it's not challenging, it doesn't have to be challenging. But it's like, yeah, see the bigger picture. Tune into intuitive guidance and feel what's really there for you,   Michael Hingson ** 57:41 yeah, which is really important to do. I think we we never spend our we mostly don't spend nearly enough time listening to ourselves and listening to what our inner voices have to say to us that we can use. And I think it's so important to do that,   Andra Wochesen ** 57:59 yes, every day. And I think when we're faced with challenges, it's heightened. And I believe our challenges are here to I've always listened to my inner self, but I think this cancer is like, no, no, you, you're you, you're this is here for you to do it even more. And so I think our challenges are are an opportunity for that to deepen.   Michael Hingson ** 58:20 Well, since you are coaching, and you do a lot of that, if people want to reach out to you and maybe follow up on what they're hearing today, how do they do that?   Andra Wochesen ** 58:29 My website you could do is, actually, you're on LinkedIn a lot, so probably people are listening to this on LinkedIn. So Andra Wochesen is my if you look that up on LinkedIn, Andrawochesen.com, is my website,   Michael Hingson ** 58:44 why don't you spell that? If you would Sure, sure, yeah, a,   Andra Wochesen ** 58:47 An, D, R, A, W, O, C, H, E, S, E, N, and then.com and yeah, I'm also on Instagram, a little bit under Andra underscore energy, coach, so those are the three main places that I am sort of accessible, or where people can reach out.   Michael Hingson ** 59:08 Well, I hope people will reach out. I think you've offered a lot of invaluable insights, and I think there is a lot to be said for the kinds of things that we've talked about today, because we have to listen to ourselves, and mostly we probably have to learn how to listen to ourselves. And you certainly can help with that. Yeah,   Andra Wochesen ** 59:31 that's a great way to say it, right? It is. It is a it's another choice, right? And it is a skill. And it is. It does require a moment to slow down, to really tune in and listen. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 59:42 yeah, absolutely. Well, I want to thank you for being here and spending an hour with us. Can you believe it's been an hour already we've had a lot of fun telling you conversation,   Andra Wochesen ** 59:52 yeah, lots of different topics, lots of different areas. And yeah, thank you for the opportunity to connect with you and. Your audience and to share my story and hopefully some inspiration or insight for those listening.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:08 Well, we're very grateful that you took the time to do this, and I want to express my gratitude to all of you who are out there listening or watching this, and we appreciate you doing so. I hope you liked what Andrew Watson had to say today, I'd love to hear from you. I'd love to hear what your thoughts are. Please feel free to email me at Michael h i at accessibe.   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week

In episode 141 of White Canes Connect, hosts Lisa Bryant and David Goldstein speak with JP Williams, a blind mental health and life coach based in Nashville. Originally a successful country songwriter—co-writing the hit “Best Shot” by Jimmie Allen—JP shares how he transitioned from the music industry into coaching. After decades in music, a career pivot during the pandemic led him to become certified through the International Coach Federation and begin work with Lyra Health, coaching employees from Fortune 500 companies on issues ranging from career transitions and relationships to parenting and goal setting. What sets this conversation apart is how blindness plays only a small, though empowering, role in JP's journey. He emphasizes that coaching is a blind-friendly profession—relying more on listening and intuition than visual cues—and shares how his clients often feel inspired by his life experience. JP breaks down the difference between therapy and coaching, stresses the importance of proper certification, and underscores that real growth happens when clients are seen as creative, resourceful, and whole. He also offers free discovery calls for those interested in coaching and encourages self-investment and adaptability in an ever-changing world. Show notes at https://www.whitecanesconnect.com/141     Links Mentioned Learn more about JP Williams at https://www.jpwilliams.net/  Listen to Best Shot by Jimmy Allen: https://open.spotify.com/track/3eDNb3ZG3gKgjAAgJBcOL8  Have you checked out Federation Focus yet? https://www.youtube.com/@nfbofpa/  Listen to episodes on our website: https://www.whitecanesconnect.com/.  An Easy Way to Help the NFB of PA Support the NFB of PA with every purchase at White Cane Coffee Company by going to https://www.whitecanecoffee.com/ref/nfbp. When you use that link to purchase from White Cane Coffee, the NFB of PA earns a 10% commission! Share the link with your family and friends! Listen to Erin and Bob Willman from White Cane Coffee on episode 072 of White Canes Connect. Donate to the NFB of PA Like what you hear on White Canes Connect? Support us and donate to the National Federation of the Blind of Pennsylvania, visit https://www.NFBofPA.org/give/. We Want to Hear Your Story Reach out with questions and comments, or share ideas! We want to hear from you. Call us at (267) 338-4495 or at whitecanesconnect@gmail.com. Follow White Canes Connect Find out why White Canes Connect is currently ranked at #13 of the 100 Best Visually Impaired Podcast. Find the show on: Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/white-canes-connect/id1592248709  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1YDQSJqpoteGb1UMPwRSuI  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@pablindpodcast 

“Manager and leader”? What's the difference. During my conversation this time with Scott Hanton, our guest, we will discuss this very point along with many other fascinating and interesting subjects. As Scott tells us at the beginning of this episode he grew up asking “why” about most anything you can think of. He always was a “why” asker. As he tells it, unlike many children who grow out of the phase of asking “why” he did not. He still asks “why” to this very day.   At the age of 13 Scott decided that he wanted to be a chemist. He tells us how this decision came about and why he has always stayed with it. Scott received his bachelor's degree in Chemistry from Michigan State and his PHD from the University of Wisconsin. Again, why he changed schools for his PHD work is an interesting story. As you will see, Scott tells stories in a unique and quite articulate way.   After his university days were over Scott went to work, yes as a chemist. He tells us about this and how after 20 years with one company how and why he moved to another company and somewhat out of constant lab work into some of the management, business and leadership side of a second company. He stayed there for ten years and was laid off during the pandemic. Scott then found employment as the editorial director of Lab Management Magazine where he got to bring his love of teaching to the forefront of his work.   My hour with Scott gives us all many insights into management, leadership and how to combine the two to create a strong teaming environment. I believe you will find Scott's thoughts extremely poignant and helpful in everything that you do.     About the Guest:   Scott Hanton is the Editorial Director of Lab Manager. He spent 30 years as a research chemist, lab manager, and business leader at Air Products and Intertek. Scott thrives on the challenges of problem-solving. He enjoys research, investigation, and collaboration. Scott is a people-centric, servant leader. He is motivated by developing environments where people can grow and succeed, and crafting roles for people that take advantage of their strengths.   Scott earned a BS in chemistry from Michigan State University and a PhD in physical chemistry from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. He is an active member of the American Chemical Society (ACS), the American Society of Mass Spectrometry (ASMS), and the Association of Lab Managers (ALMA). As a scientist Scott values curiosity, innovation, progress, and delivery of results. Scott has always been motivated by questions beginning with why. Studying physical chemistry in graduate school offered the opportunity to hone answers to these questions. As a professional scientist, Scott worked in analytical chemistry specializing in MALDI mass spectrometry and polymer characterization.   At Scott married his high school sweetheart, and they have one son. Scott is motivated by excellence, happiness, and kindness. He most enjoys helping people and solving problems. Away from work, Scott enjoys working outside in the yard, playing strategy games, and participating in different discussion groups.   Scott values having a growth mindset and is a life-long learner. He strives to learn something new everyday and from everyone. One of the great parts of being a trained research scientist is that failure really isn't part of his vocabulary. He experiments and either experiences success or learns something new. He values both individual and organizational learning.   Scott's current role at Lab Manager encompasses three major responsibilities: ·      Writing articles and giving presentations to share his experience with lab managers. ·      Driving the creation and growth of the Lab Manager Academy (https://labmanageracademy.com/) that currently contains three certificate programs: lab management, lab safety management, and lab quality management. ·      Helping people through his knowledge of science, scientists, management, and leadership. He is very happy sharing the accumulated wisdom of his experiences as a researcher, lab supervisor, and lab manager. Each article posted on Lab Manager addresses a decision that a lab manager needs to make. Lab management is full of decision-making, so helping people make better, faster, more complete decisions is very satisfying. Ways to connect with Scott:   https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-hanton/   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion diversity and the unexpected meet, and mostly we get to deal with the unexpected, as opposed to inclusion or diversity. But that's okay, because unexpected is what makes life fun, and our guest today, Scott Hanton, will definitely be able to talk about that. Scott has been a research chemist. He comes from the chemistry world, so he and I in the past have compared notes, because, of course, I come from the physics world, and I love to tell people that the most important thing I learned about physics was that, unlike Doc Brown, although I do know how to build a bomb, unlike Doc Brown from Back to the Future, I'm not dumb enough to try to go steal fissionable material from a terrorist group to build the bomb. So, you know, I suppose that's a value, value lesson somewhere. But anyway, I am really glad that you're all here with us today, and we have lots to talk about. Scott, as I said, was in chemistry and research chemist, and now is the editorial supervisor and other things for a magazine called lab manager, and we will talk about that as well. So Scott, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad   Scott Hanton ** 02:38 you're here. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation with you today.   Michael Hingson ** 02:43 Well, I think it'll be a lot of fun, and looking forward to it. Now, you're in Michigan, right?   Scott Hanton ** 02:48 That's right. I live in South Lyon, Michigan,   Michael Hingson ** 02:51 ah, what's the weather back there today?   Scott Hanton ** 02:55 It's probably about 55 degrees and cloudy   Michael Hingson ** 02:58 here today. Well, it's still fairly sunny here, and we're actually, according to my iPhone, at 71 so it was up around 80 earlier in the week, but weather changes are still going to bring some cold for a while   Scott Hanton ** 03:15 in here in Michigan, I visited a customer earlier this week, and I drove by about 1000 orange barrels on the highway, which means it's spring, because there's only two seasons in Michigan, winter and construction.   Michael Hingson ** 03:29 There you go. Yeah, I know. I went to the University of California, Irvine, UCI. And if you ask somebody who doesn't know that UCI stands for University of California at Irvine. If you ask them what UCI stands for, they'll tell you, under construction indefinitely. Sounds right? Yeah. Well, it's been doing it ever since I was there a long time ago, and they they continue to grow. Now we're up to like 32,000 fresh, or excuse me, undergraduates at the university. And when I was there, there were 2700 students. So it's grown a little. That's   Scott Hanton ** 04:05 a lot of change. I'm used to big universities. I'm a graduate of both Michigan State and the University of Wisconsin. So these are big places.   Michael Hingson ** 04:13 Wow, yeah. So you're used to it. I really enjoyed it when it was a small campus. I'm glad I went there, and that was one of the reasons that caused me to go there, was because I knew I could probably get a little bit more visibility with instructors, and that would be helpful for me to get information when they didn't describe things well in class. And it generally worked out pretty well. So I can't complain a lot. Perfect. Glad it worked well for you, it did. Well, why don't you start, if you would, by telling us kind of about the early Scott growing up and all that sort of stuff.   Scott Hanton ** 04:49 I grew up in Michigan, in a town called Saginaw. I was blessed with a family that loved me and that, you know, I was raised in a very. Supportive environment. But young Scott asked, Why about everything you know, the way kids do? Yeah, right. And my mom would tell you that when I was a kid, why was my most favorite word? And most kids outgrow that. I never did, yeah, so Me neither. I still ask why all the time. It's still my most favorite word, and it caused me to want to go explore the sciences, because what I found, as I learned about science, was that I could get answers to why questions better in science than in other places.   Michael Hingson ** 05:34 Yeah, makes sense. So what kinds of questions did you ask about why? Well, I asked   Scott Hanton ** 05:43 all kinds of questions about why, like, why are we having that for dinner? Or, why is my bedtime so early? Those questions didn't have good answers, at least from my perspective, right? But I also asked questions like, why is grass green, and why is the sky blue? And studying physical chemistry at Michigan State answered those questions. And so   Michael Hingson ** 06:03 how early did you learn about Rayleigh scattering? But that's you know?   Scott Hanton ** 06:07 Well, I learned the basic concepts from a really important teacher in my life, Mr. Leeson was my seventh grade science teacher, and what I learned from him is that I could ask questions that weren't pertinent to what he was lecturing about, and that taught me a lot about the fact that science was a lot bigger than what we got in the curriculum or in the classroom. And so Mr. Leeson was a really important person in my development, and showed me that there was that science was a lot bigger than I thought it was as a student, but I didn't really learn about rally scattering until I got to college.   Michael Hingson ** 06:43 But at the same time, it sounds like he was willing to allow you to grow and and learn, which so many people aren't willing to do. They're too impatient.   Scott Hanton ** 06:58 He was a first year teacher the year I had him so he hadn't become cynical yet. So it was great to just be able to stay after class and ask him a question, or put my hand up in class and ask him a question. He also did a whole series of demonstrations that were fabulous and made the science come to life in a way that reading about it doesn't stir the imagination. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 07:23 I had teachers that did that too. I remember very well my freshman general science teacher in high school, Mr. Dills, and one day, and he loved to do kind of unique things, just to push the boundaries of students a little bit. He came in one day and he said, I got a pop quiz for everybody, which doesn't help me, because the pop quiz was in print, but he handed it out. And then he took me to the back of the room, and he said, You're not going to really be able to do this quiz. Let me tell you why. And he said, Oh, and one thing he said is, just be sure you follow all the instructions and you'll be fine on the test to everybody. He brought me back to the back of the room. He says, Well, here's the deal. He says, if people really read the instructions, what they'll do is they'll read the instruction that says, Read all the questions before you start answering, and if you get to the last question, it says answer only the first question, which is what is your name and and sure enough, of course, people didn't read the instructions. And he said, so I wouldn't be able to really deal with you with that one, with that whole thing, just because it wouldn't work well. And I said, I understand, but he loved to make students think, and I learned so much about the whole concept of realizing the need to observe and be observant in all that you do. And it was lessons like that from him that really helped a lot with that. For me,   Scott Hanton ** 08:48 I had a high school chemistry teacher named Mrs. Schultz, and the first experiment that we did in her class, in the first week of classes, was she wanted us to document all of the observations that we could make about a burning candle. And I was a hot shot student. Thought I, you know, owned the world, and I was going to ace this test. And, you know, I had maybe a dozen observations about a burning candle, and thought I had done a great job describing it, until she started sharing her list, and she probably had 80 observations about a burning candle, and it taught me the power of observation and the need to talk about the details of those observations and to be specific about what the observations were. And that experiment seems simple, light a candle and tell me what you see. Yeah, but that lesson has carried on with me now for more than approaching 50 years.   Michael Hingson ** 09:47 Let's see, as I recall, if you light a candle, what the center of the flame is actually pretty cool compared to the outside. It's more hollow. Now I wouldn't be able to easily tell that, because. Is my my process for observing doesn't really use eyesight to do that, so I I'm sure there are other technologies today that I could use to get more of that information. But   Scott Hanton ** 10:12 I'm also sure that that experiment could be re crafted so that it wasn't so visual, yeah, right, that there could be tactile experiments to tell me about observations or or audible experiments about observation, where you would excel in ways that I would suffer because I'm so visually dominant. The   Michael Hingson ** 10:33 issue, though, is that today, there's a lot more technology to do that than there was when I was in school and you were in school, but yeah, I think there is a lot available. There's a company called Independence Science, which is actually owned and run by Dr Cary sapollo. And Carrie is blind, and he is a blind chemist, and he wanted to help develop products for blind people to be able to deal with laboratory work. So he actually worked with a company that was, well, it's now Vernier education systems. They make a product called LabQuest with something like 80 different kinds of probes that you can attach to it, and the LabQuest will will provide visual interpretations of whatever the probes are showing carry, and independent science took that product and made it talk, so that There is now a Talking LabQuest. And the reality is that all those probes became usable because the LabQuest became accessible to be able to do that, and they put a lot of other things into it too. So it's more than just as a talking device, a lab device. It's got a periodic table in it. It's got a lot of other kinds of things that they just put in it as well. But it's really pretty cool because it now makes science a whole lot more accessible. I'm going to have to think about the different kinds of probes and how one could use that to look at a candle. I think that'd be kind of fun.   Scott Hanton ** 12:15 And it's just awesome to hear that there's innovation and space to make science more available to everybody. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:23 the real problem that we face is the one that we mostly always have faced, which is societal attitudes, as opposed to really being or not being able to do the experiments, is people think we can't, and that's the barrier that we always, usually have to overcome.   Scott Hanton ** 12:39 What I find in my time as a coach, mentor, supervisor, is that if somebody believes they can't do it, they can't do it. Yeah. And so it's often about overcoming their own mental limitations, the limitations that they've placed on themselves,   Michael Hingson ** 12:56 and that's right, or unfortunately, the limitations that other people place on us, and we, all too often and weigh too much, buy into those limitations. So it's it is something that we, especially in the sciences, should recognize that we shouldn't be doing so much of. I know that when I was at UC Irvine as a graduate student, I learned once that there was a letter in my file that a professor wrote. Fortunately, I never had him as a professor, but it and I was in my master's program at the time in physics, and this guy put a letter in my file saying that no blind person could ever absorb the material to get an advanced degree in physics at the University. Just put that in there, which is so unfortunate, because the real thing that is demonstrated there is a prejudice that no scientist should ever have.   Scott Hanton ** 13:51 I'm hopeful that as you graduated, there was a retraction letter in your file as well,   Michael Hingson ** 13:57 not that I ever heard, but yeah. Well, I'd already gotten my bachelor's degree, but yeah. But you know, things happen, but it is a it is a societal thing, and society all too often creates limitations, and sometimes we don't find them right away, but it is one of the big issues that, in general, we have to deal with. And on all too often, society does some pretty strange things because it doesn't understand what science is all about. I know when we were dealing with covid, when it all started, leaving the conspiracy theorists out of it. One of the things that I learned was that we have all these discussions about AI, if you will. But AI was one of the primary mechanisms that helped to develop the mRNA vaccines that are now still the primary things that we use to get vaccinated against covid, because they the artificial intelligence. I'm not sure how artificial. It is, but was able to craft what became the vaccine in a few days. And scientists acknowledged, if they had to do it totally on their own, it would take years to have done what AI did in a few days.   Scott Hanton ** 15:13 The AI technology is amazing and powerful, but it's not new. No, I met a person who shared her story about AI investigations and talked about what she was doing in this field 30 years ago. Yeah, in her master's work. And you know, I knew it wasn't brand new, but I didn't really realize how deep its roots went until I talked to her.   Michael Hingson ** 15:37 I worked as my first jobs out of college with Ray Kurzweil, who, of course, nowadays, is well known for the singularity and so on. But back then, he developed the first reading machine that blind people could use to read printed material. And one of the things that he put into that machine was the ability, as it scanned more material, to learn and better recognize the material. And so he was doing machine learning back in the 1970s   Scott Hanton ** 16:07 right? And all of this is, you know, as Newton said on the shoulders of giants, right, right? He said it a bit cynically, but it's still true that we all in science, we are learning from each other. We're learning from the broader community, and we're integrating that knowledge as we tackle the challenges that we are exploring.   Michael Hingson ** 16:27 So what got you to go into chemistry when you went into college?   Scott Hanton ** 16:33 That's a good question. So when I was 13 years old, I went on a youth a church group youth trip to another city, and so they split us up, and there were three of us from our group that stayed overnight in a host family. And at dinner that night, the father worked in a pharmaceutical company, and he talked about the work he was doing, and what he was doing was really synthetic chemistry around small molecule drug discovery. And for me, it was absolutely fascinating. I was thrilled at that information. I didn't know any scientists growing up, I had no adult input other than teachers about science, and I can remember going back home and my parents asking me how the trip went. And it's like, it's fantastic. I'm going to be a chemist. And they both looked at me like, what is that? How do you make money from it? How do you get that? My dad was a banker. My mom was a school teacher. They had no scientific background, but that that one conversation, such serendipity, right? One conversation when I was 13 years old, and I came home and said, I'm going to be a chemist, and I've never really deviated from that path. Did you have other siblings? Younger brother and another younger sister?   Michael Hingson ** 17:54 Okay? Did they go into science by any remote chance?   Scott Hanton ** 17:58 Not at all. So they were both seventh grade teachers for more than 30 years. So my brother taught math and English, and my sister teaches social studies.   Michael Hingson ** 18:10 Well, there you go. But that is also important. I actually wanted to teach physics, but jobs and other things and circumstances took me in different directions, but I think the reality is that I ended up going into sales. And what I realized, and it was partly because of a Dale Carnegie sales course I took, but I realized that good sales people are really teachers, because they're really teaching people about products or about things, and they're also sharp enough to recognize what their products might or might not do to help a customer. But that, again, not everyone does that, but so I figure I still was teaching, and today, being a public speaker, traveling the world, talking, of course, about teamwork and other things, it's still all about teaching.   Scott Hanton ** 18:57 I think I've always been a teacher, and if you talk to my coworkers along the way, I enjoy helping people. I enjoy sharing my knowledge. There's always been a teacher inside but only in this job as the editorial director at lab manager have I really been able to do it directly. So we've developed what we call the lab manager Academy, and I create e learning courses to help lab managers be more successful, and it's been a passion project for me, and it's been a load of fun.   Michael Hingson ** 19:30 And it doesn't get better than that. It's always great when it's a load of fun, yes,   Scott Hanton ** 19:35 well, so you left college and you got a bachelor's and a master's degree, right? No masters for me, that step you went right to the old PhD, yeah. So I went straight. I went graduated from Michigan State. So Michigan State was on terms back in those days. So graduated in June, got married in July, moved to Wisconsin in August. To graduate school at the end of August at the University of Wisconsin. Okay? And my second year as a graduate student, my professor asked me, Do you want to stop and complete a master's? And I said, Wait, tell me about this word stop. And he said, Well, you'd have to finish the Master's requirements and write a thesis, and that's going to take some time. And I said, Do I have to and he said, No, and I don't recommend it. Just keep going forward and finish your PhD. So that's   Michael Hingson ** 20:30 and what does your wife do?   Scott Hanton ** 20:33 So my wife also is in the graduate program at the University of Wisconsin, and she decided that a master's degree was the right answer for her, because she didn't want to be a PhD scientist in XYZ narrow band of science. She wanted to be a master of chemistry. Okay, and so we took different paths through graduate school, but each of us took the path that worked best for us, and each pass has great value, so we're both happy with the choices that we made,   Michael Hingson ** 21:06 and complement each other and also give you, still lots of great things to talk about over dinner.   Scott Hanton ** 21:12 Absolutely. And she took that master's degree, went into the pharmaceutical industry and largely behaved as a librarian in her first part of her career, she wasn't called a librarian, but what she really did was a lot of information integrating, and then moved into the Library Group, and was a corporate librarian for a long time, and then a community librarian. So that path worked brilliantly for her. She also has a Masters of Library Science. So I have one PhD. She has two Master's degree. I have one bachelor's degree. She has two bachelor's degree.   Michael Hingson ** 21:50 Oh, so you can have interesting discussions about who really progressed further,   21:54 absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 21:57 Well, that's, that's, that's cute, though. Well, I I got my bachelor's and master's. My wife, who I didn't meet until years later, wanted to be a librarian, but she ended up getting a a Master's at USC in so in sociology and and ended up getting a teaching credential and going into teaching, and taught for 10 years, and then she decided she wanted to do something different, and became a travel agent, which she had a lot of fun with. That is different, it is, but she enjoyed it, and along the way, then we got married. It was a great marriage. She was in a wheelchair her whole life. So she read, I pushed, worked out well, complimentary skills, absolutely, which is the way, way it ought to be, you know, and we had a lot of fun with it. Unfortunately, she passed now two and a half years ago, but as I tell people, we were married 40 years, and I'm sure she's monitoring me from somewhere, and if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it, so I try to just behave. Sounds like good advice. Yeah, probably certainly the safe way to go. But we, we, we had lots of neat discussions, and our our activities and our expertise did, in a lot of ways, complement each other, so it was a lot of fun. And as I said, she went to USC. I enjoyed listening to USC football because I thought that that particular college team had the best announcers in the business, least when when I was studying in Southern California, and then when we got married, we learned the the day we got married, the wedding was supposed to start at four, and it didn't start till later because people weren't showing up for the wedding. And we learned that everybody was sitting out in their cars waiting for the end of the USC Notre Dame game. And we knew that God was on our side when we learned that SC beat the snot out of Notre Dame. So there you go. Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh, the rivalries we face. So what did you do after college?   Scott Hanton ** 24:09 So did my PhD at the University of Wisconsin. And one of the nice things, a fringe benefit of going to a big, important program to do your PhD, is that recruiters come to you. And so I was able to do 40 different, four, zero, 40 different interviews on campus without leaving Madison. And one of those interviews was with a company called Air Products. And that worked out, and they hired me. And so we moved to Allentown, Pennsylvania to go to work. I went to work at Air Products and and Helen found a role in the pharmaceutical industry at Merck. And so we did that for a long time. I was initially a research expert, a PhD expert doing lasers and materials and analytical stuff. And over the years. I progressed up the ladder from researcher to supervisor to what did we call it, group head to Section Manager, to operations manager, and ultimately to General Manager.   Michael Hingson ** 25:13 Well, at least being in Allentown, you were close to a Cracker Barrel restaurant. Yes, that is true. That was the closest to one to where we lived in New Jersey, so we visited it several times. That's how I know   Scott Hanton ** 25:26 about it. Maybe we were there at the same time. Michael, maybe this isn't our first. It's   Michael Hingson ** 25:31 very possible. But we enjoyed Cracker Barrel and enjoyed touring around Pennsylvania. So I should have asked, What prompted you to go to the University of Wisconsin to do your your graduate work, as opposed to staying in Michigan. So   Scott Hanton ** 25:47 my advisor at Michigan State, our advisor at Michigan State, told us, here's the top five schools, graduate programs in chemistry, apply to them all. Go to the one you get into. And so I got into three. Helen got into two. The one that was the same was Wisconsin. So that's where we went, yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 26:09 Well, then no better logic and argument than that.   Scott Hanton ** 26:14 It was a great Madison. Wisconsin is a beautiful city. It one of the things I really liked about the chemistry program there then, and it's still true now, is how well the faculty get along together so many collaborative projects and just friendliness throughout the hallways. And yes, they are all competing at some level for grant support, but they get along so well, and that makes it for a very strong community,   Michael Hingson ** 26:41 and it probably also means that oftentimes someone who's applying for something can enlist support from other people who are willing to help.   Scott Hanton ** 26:50 And as a graduate student, it meant that I had more than one professor that I could go to my advisor. There was a whole group of advisors who ran joint group meetings and would give us advice about our work or our writing or our approach, or just because we needed a pep talk, because completing a PhD is hard. Yeah, right, so that community was really important to me, and it's something I took away that when I started my industrial career, I had seen the value of community, and I wanted to build stronger communities wherever I went, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 27:26 So what does a company, does air products do   Scott Hanton ** 27:31 that's sort of in the name, right? They're an industrial gas company. Got some of their big, biggest products are taking air and separating it into its components of nitrogen, oxygen, oxygen, argon, whatever, right? But at that time, they also had a chemicals business and a semiconductor business, or electronics business. So there was a lot of chemistry going on, although a lot of my work colleagues were chemical engineers who were working on the gasses side of the business, we had significant number of chemistry, sorts material science, sorts of people who are working on the chemicals side. Now, over time, Air Products divested those businesses, and now it's much more of a true industrial gas company. But I had the opportunity to work in an integrated science company that did all sorts of things.   Michael Hingson ** 28:23 Yeah, and as as we know, certainly a little helium never hurt anyone.   Scott Hanton ** 28:30 No little helium, you know, raises people's spirits, it   Michael Hingson ** 28:34 does and their voices, it does. I I've visited helium tanks many times at UC Irvine when they had liquid helium, which was certainly a challenge because of how cold it had to be. But occasionally we would open a valve and little cold but useful helium gas would escape   Scott Hanton ** 28:56 very cold. Please be safe. Cryogens are are dangerous materials, and we gotta make sure we handle them with due respect.   Michael Hingson ** 29:05 Yeah, well, we, we all did and and didn't take too many chances. So it worked out pretty well. So you stayed in Allentown and you stayed with Air Products for how long   Scott Hanton ** 29:19 I was in Air Products for 20 years. So the analytical group that I was part of, we were about 92 or 93 people when I joined the company, when I just left after earning my PhD. After 20 years, that group was down to about 35 just progressive series of decisions that made the department smaller, and as the Department got smaller and smaller, we were worried about our abilities to sustain our work. And so a dear friend and a key colleague, Paula McDaniel, and I, worked to try to see what other kind of opportunities there were. Yeah. And so we reached out to a contract research organization called Intertech to see if they would be interested in maybe acquiring our analytical department. And when we called them, and by the way, we called them before we talked to our boss about it, she forgave us later, but when we called the guy on the end of the phone said, Wait a minute, let me get your file. And it's like, what you have a file on Air Products, analytical, really? Why? Well, it turned out that they had a file, and that they had an active Merger and Acquisition Group, and they wanted an integrated analytical department on the east coast of the US. And so we engaged in negotiation, and ultimately this analytical department was sold by Air Products to Intertech. So on Friday, we're a little cog in a giant engine of an global, international company, and our funding comes from Vice Presidents. And on Monday, we're a standalone business of 35 people, we need to write quotes in order to make money. So it was an enormous challenge to transition from a service organization to a business. But oh my goodness, did we learn a lot,   Michael Hingson ** 31:13 certainly a major paradigm shift,   Scott Hanton ** 31:18 and I was lucky that I lost the coin flip, and Paula won, and she said, I want to be business development director. And I said, thank God. So she went off to be the key salesperson, and Paula was utterly brilliant as a technical salesperson, and I became the operations manager, which allowed me to keep my hands dirty with the science and to work with the scientists and to build a system and a community that allowed us to be successful in a CRO world.   Michael Hingson ** 31:49 So at that time, when you became part, part of them, the new company, were you or the standalone business? Were you working in lab? Still yourself?   Scott Hanton ** 32:01 Yes. So I had the title Operations Manager and all of the scientific staff reported into me, but I was still the technical expert in some mass spectrometry techniques, particularly MALDI and also tough Sims, and so I still had hands on lab responsibility that I needed to deliver. And over time, I was able to train some people to take some of those responsibilities off. But when the weight of the world was particularly heavy, the place for me to go was in the lab and do some experiments.   Michael Hingson ** 32:34 Yeah, still so important to be able to keep your hand in into to know and understand. I know I had that same sort of need being the manager of an office and oftentimes working with other people who were the engineers, coming from a little bit of a technical background as well. I worked to always make sure I knew all I could about the products that I was dealing with and selling, and my sales people who worked for me constantly asked, How come, you know, all this stuff, and we don't then, my response always was, did you read the product bulletin that came out last week? Or have you kept up on the product bulletins? Because it's all right there, whether I actually physically repaired products or not, I knew how to do it. And so many times when I was involved in working with some of our engineers, I remember a few times our field support people, and we were working out of New Jersey, and then in New York at the time, in the World Trade Center, we had some customers up at Lockheed Martin, up in Syria, Rochester, I think it was. And the guys would go up, and then they'd call me on the phone, and we'd talk about it, and between us, we came up with some bright ideas. And I remember one day, all of a sudden, I get this phone call, and these guys are just bouncing off the walls, because whatever it was that was going on between them and me, we figured it out, and they put it in play and made it work, and they were all just as happy as clams at high tide, which is the way it ought to   Scott Hanton ** 34:13 be. It's great to work in a team that finds success. The longer I was in technical management, the more I enjoyed the success of the team. It didn't need to be my success anymore that helping the scientists be successful in their roles was truly satisfying,   Michael Hingson ** 34:33 and that helped you, by definition, be more successful in your role.   Scott Hanton ** 34:36 And no question, it could be seen as a selfish byproduct, but the fact is that it still felt really good.   Michael Hingson ** 34:43 Yeah, I hear you, because I know for me, I never thought about it as I've got to be successful. It's we've got problems to solve. Let's do it together. And I always told people that we're a team. And I have told every salesperson. I ever hired. I'm not here to boss you around. You've convinced me that you should be able to sell our products, and sometimes I found that they couldn't. But I said my job is to work with you to figure out how I can enhance what you do, and what skills do I bring to add value to you, because we've got to work together, and the people who understood that and who got it were always the most successful people that I ever had in my teams.   Scott Hanton ** 35:30 One of the things I strive to do as a leader of any organization is to understand the key strengths of the people on the team and to try to craft their roles in such a way that they spend the majority of their time executing their strengths. Yeah. I've also discovered that when I truly investigate poor performance, there's often a correlation between poor performance and people working in their weaknesses. Yeah, and if we can shift those jobs, change those roles, make change happen so that people can work more often in their strengths, then good things happen.   Michael Hingson ** 36:07 And if you can bring some of your skills into the mix and augment what they do, so much the better.   Scott Hanton ** 36:16 Yeah, because I'm just another member of the team, my role is different, but I need to also apply my strengths to the problems and be wary of my weaknesses, because as the leader of the organization, my words carried undue weight. Yeah, and if, if I was speaking or acting in a space where I was weak, people would still do what I said, because I had the most authority, and that was just a lose, lose proposition   Michael Hingson ** 36:43 by any standard. And and when you, when you operated to everyone's strengths, it always was a win. Yep, which is so cool. So you went to Intertech, and how long were you there?   Scott Hanton ** 36:57 I was at Intertech for 10 years, and work I can if you know, for any listeners out there who work in the CRO world, it is a tough business. It is a grind working in that business, yeah? So it was a lot of long hours and testy customers and shortages of materials and equipment that was a hard a hard a hard road to plow,   Michael Hingson ** 37:22 yeah, yeah, it gets to be frustrating. Sometimes it's what you got to do, but it still gets to be frustrating gets to be a challenge. The best part   Scott Hanton ** 37:32 for me was I had a great team. We had senior and junior scientists. They were good people. They worked hard. They fundamentally, they cared about the outcomes. And so it was a great group of people to work with. But the contract lab business is a tough business. Yeah, so when covid came, you know, the pandemic settles in, all the restrictions are coming upon us. I was tasked as the General Manager of the business with setting up all the protocols, you know, how are we going to meet the number of people this basing the masks, you know, how could we work with and we were essential as a lab, so we had to keep doing what we were doing. And it took me about a week to figure non stop work to figure out what our protocols were going to be, and the moment I turned them into my boss, then I got laid off. So what you want to do in a time of crisis is you want to let go of the the general manager, the safety manager, the quality manager and the Chief Scientist, because those are four people that you don't need during times of stress or challenge or crisis. On the plus side for me, getting laid off was a bad hour. It hurt my pride, but after an hour, I realized that all the things that I'd been stressing about for years trying to run this business were no longer my problem. Yeah, and I found that it was a tremendous weight lifted off my shoulders to not feel responsible for every problem and challenge that that business had.   Michael Hingson ** 39:14 And that's always a good blessing when you when you figure that out and don't worry about the the issues anymore. That's a good thing. It was certainly   Scott Hanton ** 39:25 good for me. Yeah, so I'm not going to recommend that people go get laid off. No world to get fired. But one problem that I had is because Paula and I worked to create that business, I sort of behaved like an owner, but was treated like an employee. And my recommendation to people is, remember, you're an employee, find some personal boundaries that protect you from the stress of the business, because you're not going to be rewarded or treated like an owner.   Michael Hingson ** 39:58 Yeah, because you're not because. Or not.   Scott Hanton ** 40:01 So I got laid off. It was in the height of the pandemic. So, you know, I'm too busy of a human being to sort of sit in a rocking chair and watch the birds fly by. That's not my style or my speed. So I started a consulting business, and that was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed doing the consulting work, but I learned something really important about myself, and that's that while I can sell and I can be an effective salesperson, I don't like selling, and as a company of one, when I didn't sell, I didn't make any money, yeah, and so I needed to figure out something else to do, because I really hated selling, and I wasn't doing it. I was procrastinating, and that made the business be unpredictable and very choppy   Michael Hingson ** 40:51 in that company of one, that guy who was working for you wasn't really doing all that you wanted.   Scott Hanton ** 40:56 Exactly the Yeah, you know me as the founder, was giving me as the salesman, a poor performance review was not meeting objectives. So I had a long time volunteer relationship with lab manager magazine. I had been writing articles for them and speaking for them in webinars and in conferences for a long time, probably more than 10 years, I would say, and they asked me as a consultant to produce a a to a proposal to create the lab manager Academy. So the the founder and owner of the the company, the lab X Media Group, you really saw the value of an academy, and they needed it done. They needed it done. They couldn't figure it out themselves. So I wrote the proposal. I had a good idea of how to do it, but I was new to consulting, and I struggled with, how do I get paid for this? And I had four ideas, but I didn't like them, so I slept on it, and in the morning I had a fifth, which said, hire me full time. I sent in the proposal. An hour later, I had a phone call. A week later, I had a job, so that worked out fantastic. And I've really enjoyed my time at lab manager magazine. Great people, fun work. It's really interesting to me to be valued for what I know rather than for what I can do. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:23 the two relate. But still, it does need to be more about what you know, what you really bring, as opposed to what you can do, because what you can do in general probably is an offshoot of what you know.   Scott Hanton ** 42:38 So this gives me the opportunity to help lots of people. So on the outside of the company, I'm writing articles, creating courses, giving talks to help lab managers. Because I was a lab manager for a long time, yeah, over 20 years, and I know what those challenges are. I know how hard that job is, and I know how many decisions lab managers need to make, and it's wonderful to be able to share my experience and help them, and I am motivated to help them. So was it hard? Oh, go ahead, on the inside, I'm literally an internal subject matter expert, and so I can coach and teach and help my colleagues with what's the science? What do lab managers really think? How do we pitch this so that it resonates with lab managers, and I think that helps make all of our products better and more successful.   Michael Hingson ** 43:31 So was it hard? Well, I guess best way to put it is that, was it really hard to switch from being a scientist to being a lab manager and then going into being a subject matter expert and really out of the laboratory. So   Scott Hanton ** 43:48 people ask me all the time, Scott, don't you miss being in the lab and doing experiments? And my answer is, I miss being in the lab. And I do miss being in the lab. You know, on very stressful days at Intertech, I'd go in the lab and I'd do an experiment, yeah, because it was fun, and I had more control over the how the experiment was run and what I would learn from it than I did running a business. But the flip side of that is, I do experiments all the time. What I learned as the general manager of a business was the scientific method works. Let's data hypothesis. Let's figure out how to test it. Let's gather data, and let's see if the hypothesis stands or falls. And we ran a business that way, I think, pretty successfully. And even now, in in media and publishing, we still run experiments all the time. And it's kind of funny that most of my editorial colleagues that I work with, they think my favorite word is experiment. My favorite word is still why, but we talk all the time now about doing experiments, and that was a new thing for them, but now we can do continual improvement more in a more dedicated way, and we do it a lot faster. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 45:00 yeah. So what's the hardest thing you think about being a lab manager?   Scott Hanton ** 45:06 I think the hardest thing about let me answer that with two. I'm not going to be able to narrow it down to one, so I'll give you two. The first one is you transform, maybe one day to the next, from really being in control of your science and working with whether it's animals or rocks or electrons or chemicals, whatever you're working with, having a great degree of knowledge and a lot of control, and the next day, you're hurting cats. And so it's about that transition from having control over your destiny to influencing people to get the work done, and working with people instead of working with experiments, that's really hard. The second is, as a lab manager, there's endless decisions, and so combating decision fatigue is a big deal, and everybody in the lab depends upon you for the decisions you make. And it's not that every decision has to be perfect, you know, that's just a different failure mode if you try to make perfect decisions, but every decision needs to be made promptly. And as a scientist, I could always make more data in order to make a better decision, but as a lab manager, I would often only have maybe 40 or 50% of the data I wanted, and a decision had to be made. And getting comfortable making decisions in the face of uncertainty is really hard.   Michael Hingson ** 46:29 So certainly, being a lab manager or Well, dealing with managers in the way we're talking about it here, has to be very stressful. How do you how do you cope with the stress?   Scott Hanton ** 46:42 So I think ways to cope with the stress successfully is, first of all, you've got to take care of yourself. You know, we've all flown on airplanes, and what is the safety person in the aisle or on the video? Do oxygen masks will fall from the ceiling, and what do we do with them? We put them on before we help somebody else, right? We all know that. But in the workplace, especially as a manager, it's hard to remember that as we care for our team and try and take care of our team, there might not be enough time or energy or capacity left to take care of ourselves, but if we don't fill that gas tank every day doing something, then we can't help our team. And so one way to deal with the stress is to make sure that you take care of yourself. So   Michael Hingson ** 47:28 what do you do? How do you deal with that? So   Scott Hanton ** 47:31 for me, ways that I can reinvigorate is one. I like being outside and get my hands dirty. So I'm not really a gardener, but I call myself a yard dinner. So I grow grass and I grow flowers, and I trim trees, and I want to go outside, and I want to see immediate return on my effort, and I want it to be better than when I started. And it's good if I have to clean from under my fingernails when I'm doing it. Another thing I like to do is I play all kinds of games I'm happy to play, sorry, with little kids, or I'll play complicated strategy games with people who want to sit at a table for three or four hours at a time. Yeah? And that allows my brain to spin and to work but on something completely different. Yeah. And another thing that's been important for me, especially when I was a lab manager is to be involved in youth coaching, so I coached kids soccer and basketball and baseball teams, and it's just beautiful to be out there on a field with a ball, with kids. And you know, the worries of the world just aren't there. The kids don't know anything about them. And it's fun to work with the ones who are really good, but it's equally fun to work with the ones who have never seen the ball before, and to help them do even the most basic things. And that kind of giving back and paying it forward, that sort of stuff fills my tank.   Michael Hingson ** 48:51 Yeah, I empathize a lot with with that. For me, I like to read. I've never been much of a gardener, but I also collect, as I mentioned before, old radio shows, and I do that because I'm fascinated by the history and all the things I learned from what people did in the 2030s, 40s and 50s, being on radio, much Less getting the opportunity to learn about the technical aspects of how they did it, because today it's so different in terms of how one edits, how one processes and deals with sounds and so on, but it's but it's fun to do something just totally different than way maybe what your normal Job would be, and and I do love to interact with with people. I love to play games, too. I don't get to do nearly as much of it as I'd like, but playing games is, is a lot of fun,   Scott Hanton ** 49:52 and I agree, and it it's fun, it's diverting, it's it helps me get into a flow so that I'm focused on. Me on one thing, and I have no idea how much time has gone by, and I don't really care. You know, people who play games with me might question this. I don't really care if I win or lose. Certainly I want to win, but it's more important to me that I play well, and if somebody plays better, good for   Michael Hingson ** 50:14 them, great. You'll learn from it. Exactly. Do you play   Scott Hanton ** 50:18 chess? I have played chess. I've played a lot of chess. What I've learned with chess is that I'm not an excellent I'm a good player, but not an excellent player. And when I run into excellent players, they will beat me without even breaking a sweat.   Michael Hingson ** 50:34 And again, in theory, you learn something from that.   Scott Hanton ** 50:37 What I found is that I don't really want to work that hard and yeah. And so by adding an element of chance or probability to the game, the people who focus on chess, where there are known answers and known situations, they get thrown off by the uncertainty of the of the flip the card or roll the dice. And my brain loves that uncertainty, so I tend to thrive. Maybe it's from my time in the lab with elements of uncertainty, where the chess players wilt under elements of uncertainty, and it's again, it's back to our strengths, right? That's something that I'm good at, so I'm gonna go do it. I've   Michael Hingson ** 51:20 always loved Trivial Pursuit. That's always been a fun game that I enjoy playing. I   Scott Hanton ** 51:25 do love Trivial Pursuit. I watch Jeopardy regularly. A funny story, when we moved into our new house in Pennsylvania, it was a great neighborhood. Loved the neighbors there. When we first moved in, they invited my wife and I to a game night. Excellent. We love games. We're going to play Trivial Pursuit. Awesome like Trivial Pursuit. We're going to play as couples. Bad idea, right? Let's play boys against the girls, or, let's say, random draws. No, we're playing as couples. Okay, so we played as couples. Helen and I won every game by a large margin. We were never invited back for game night. Yeah, invited back for lots of other things, but not game night.   Michael Hingson ** 52:06 One of the things that, and I've talked about it with people on this podcast before, is that all too often, when somebody reads a question from a trivial pursuit card, an answer pops in your head, then you went, Oh, that was too easy. That can't be the right answer. So you think about it, and you answer with something else, but invariably, that first answer was always the correct answer.   Scott Hanton ** 52:32 Yes, I'm I have learned to trust my intuition. Yeah. I learned, as a research scientist, that especially in talking to some of my peers, who are very dogmatic, very step by step scientists. And they lay out the 20 steps to that they felt would be successful. And they would do one at a time, one through 20. And that made them happy for me, I do one and two, and then I'd predict where that data led me, and I do experiment number seven, and if it worked, I'm off to eight. And so I they would do what, one step at a time, one to 20, and I'd sort of do 127, 1420, yeah. And that I learned that that intuition was powerful and valuable, and I've learned to trust it. And in my lab career, it served me really well. But also as a manager, it has served me well to trust my intuition, and at least to listen to it. And if I need to analyze it, I can do that, but I'm going to listen to it,   Michael Hingson ** 53:31 and that's the important thing, because invariably, it's going to give you useful information, and it may be telling you not what to do, but still trusting it and listening to it is so important, I've found that a lot over the years,   Scott Hanton ** 53:47 Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book called Blink, where he talks about the power of the subconscious, and his claim is that the subconscious is 100,000 times smarter than our conscious brain, and I think when we are trusting our intuition, we're tapping into that super computer that's in our skulls. If you want to learn more, read blank. It's a great story.   Michael Hingson ** 54:10 I hear you. I agree. How can people learn to be better leaders and managers?   Scott Hanton ** 54:18 So I think it's there's really three normal ways that people do this. One is the power of experiment, right? And I did plenty of that, and I made tons of errors. It's painful. It's irritating, trial and error, but I used to tell people at Intertech that I was the general manager because I'd made the most mistakes, which gave me the most opportunity to learn. It was also partly because a lot of my peers wanted nothing to do with the job. You know, they wanted to be scientists. Another way is we, we get coached and mentored by people around us, and that is awesome if you have good supervisors, and it's tragic if you have bad supervisors, because you don't know any better and you take for granted. That the way it's been done is the way it needs to be done, and that prevents us from being generative leaders and questioning the status quo. So there's problems there, too. And I had both good and bad supervisors during my career. I had some awful, toxic human beings who were my supervisors, who did damage to me, and then I had some brilliant, caring, empathetic people who raised me up and helped me become the leader that I am today. So it's a bit of a crap shoot. The third way is go out and learn it from somebody who's done it right, and that's why we generated the lab manager Academy to try to codify all the mistakes I made and what are the learnings from them? And when I'm talking with learners who are in the program, it's we have a huge positive result feedback on our courses. And what I talk to people about who take our courses is I'm glad you appreciate what we've put together here. That makes me feel good. I'm glad it's helping you. But when these are my mistakes and the answers to my mistakes, when you make mistakes, you need to in the future, go make some courses and teach people what the lessons were from your mistakes and pay it forward. Yeah. So I recommend getting some training.   Michael Hingson ** 56:17 What's the difference between management and leadership?   Scott Hanton ** 56:21 I particularly love a quote from Peter Drucker. So Peter Drucker was a professor in California. You may have heard of him before.   Michael Hingson ** 56:29 I have. I never had the opportunity to meet him, but I read.   Scott Hanton ** 56:34 I didn't either material. I've read his books, and I think he is an insightful human being, yes. So the quote goes like this, management is doing things right. Leadership is doing the right things. So as a technical manager, there's a bunch of things we have to get right. We have to get safety right. We have to get quality right. There's an accuracy and precision that we need to get right for our outcomes and our results. Those are management tasks, but leadership is about doing the right things. And the interesting thing about that definition is it doesn't require a title or a role or any level of authority. So anyone can be a leader if you're consistently doing the right things, you are exhibiting leadership, and that could be from the person sweeping the floors or the person approving the budget, or anyone in between.   Michael Hingson ** 57:33 Yeah, I've heard that quote from him before, and absolutely agree with it. It makes a whole lot of sense.   Scott Hanton ** 57:41 Other definitions that I've seen trying to distinguish management and leadership tend to use the words manage and lead, and I don't like definitions that include the words that they're trying to define. They become circular at some level. This one, I think, is clear about it, what its intention is, and for me, it has worked through my career, and so the separation is valuable. I have authority. I'm the manager. I have accountability to get some stuff right, but anyone can lead, and everyone can lead, and the organization works so much better when it's full of leaders   Michael Hingson ** 58:21 and leaders who are willing to recognize when they bring something to the table, or if someone else can add value in ways that they can't, to be willing to let the other individual take the leadership position for a while.   Scott Hanton ** 58:40 Absolutely, and you know that really comes down to building an environment and a culture that's supportive. And so Amy Edmondson has written extensively on the importance of psychological safety, and that psychological safety hinges on what you just said, right? If the guy who sweeps the floor has an observation about the organization. Do they feel safe to go tell the person in charge that this observation, and if they feel safe, and if that leader is sufficiently vulnerable and humble to listen with curiosity about that observation, then everybody benefits, yeah, and the more safe everyone feels. We think about emotion. Emotional safety is they anyone can bring their best self to work, and psychological safety is they can contribute their ideas and observations with no threat of retaliation, then we have an environment where we're going to get the best out of everybody, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 59:46 which is the way it it really ought to be. And all too often we don't necessarily see it, but that is the way it ought   Scott Hanton ** 59:53 to be. Too many people are worried about credit, or, I don't know, worried about things that I don't see. Yeah, and they waste human potential, right? They they don't open their doors to hire anybody. They they judge people based on what they look like instead of who they are, or they box people in into roles, and don't let them flourish and Excel. And whenever you're doing those kinds of things, you're wasting human potential. And businesses, science and business are too hard to waste human potential. We need to take advantage of everything that people are willing to give. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:33 we've been doing this for quite a while already today. So I'm going to ask as a kind of a last question, what, what advice do you want to leave for people to think about going forward in their lives and in their careers?   Scott Hanton ** 1:00:48 So I was participating in a LinkedIn chat today where a professor was asking the question, what sort of advice would you wish you got when you were 21 Okay, so it was an interesting thread, and there was one contributor to the thread who said something I thought was particularly valuable. And she said, attitude matters. Attitude matters. We can't control what happens to us, but we can control how we deal with it and how we respond, right? And so I think if we can hold our attitude as our accountability, and we can direct our strengths and our talents to applying them against the challenges that the business or the science or the lab or the community faces, and we can go in with some positive attitude and positive desire for for change and improvement, and we can be vulnerable and humble enough to accept other people's ideas and to interact through discussion and healthy debate. Then everything's better. I also like Kelleher his quote he was the co founder of Southwest Airlines, and he said, when you're hiring, hire for attitude, train for skill. Attitude is so important. So I think, understand your attitude. Bring the attitude you want, the attitude you value, the attitude that's that's parallel to your core values. And then communicate to others about their attitude and how it's working or not working for them.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:31 And hopefully, if they have a positive or good enough attitude, they will take that into consideration and grow because of it absolutely   Scott Hanton ** 1:02:41 gives everybody the chance to be the best they can be.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:47 Well, Scott, this has been wonderful. If people want to reach out to you, how can they do that?   Scott Hanton ** 1:02:51 So LinkedIn is great. I've provided Michael my LinkedIn connection. So I would love to have people connect to me on LinkedIn or email. S Hanson at lab manager.com love to have interactions with the folks out there.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:08 Well, I want to thank you for spending so much time. We'll have to do more of this.   Scott Hanton ** 1:03:13 Michael, I really enjoyed it. This was a fun conversation. It was stimulating. You asked good questio

In this conversation we're exited to welcome Alana Lentin back to the show to talk about her new book The New Racial Regime: Recalibrations of White Supremacy, which works with the concept of the racial regime put forth by Cedric Robinson in his book Forgeries of Memory and Meaning. The book features a foreword by Elizabeth Robinson, long time interlocutor, partner in critical media work, and life partner of Cedric Robinson.  We talk about this project which starts with an analysis of the war on so-called Critical Race Theory, and the attendant fascistic agenda, the “whitelash” against Black Studies, and gets deep into zionist counterinsurgency efforts throughout academia, as well as the so-called “war on antisemitism,” and how we make sense of “the processes through which racial colonial rule is ideologically resecured.” It's a really interesting read and I definitely recommend people pick it up. Alana Lentin is a teacher and writer, and identifies as a Jewish European woman who is a settler on Gadigal-Wangal land (Sydney, Australia). Her work focuses on a critical theorization of race, racism and antiracism.  She is a Professor of Cultural and Social Analysis at Western Sydney University. She is the author and editor of multiple books, including Why Race Still Matters and Racism and Anti-Racism in Europe.  More about Dr. Lentin and her work can be found at her website. This also is the first episode that Josh and Jared have recorded together since October of 2023, and it was great to collaborate again on an episode! We hosted with the Sameer Project last week. With the forced starvation of Palestinians in Gaza, it is absolutely critical that we ways to continue getting support their way. We we'll put a link to donate to the Sameer Project and to that conversation in the show description. And of course if you appreciate the work that we do on audio podcasts like this, and through our video feed on Youtube, the best way to support our work is to become a patron show for as little as $1 a month, or support us through our BuyMeACoffee page. Our music as always is courtesy of Televangel Correction: in the interview Jared said it was the "National Federation of Teachers" which is not accurate (or a thing). It was the National Educators Association, however that vote from the a majority of the 7,000 delegates of the largest US teacher's union was rejected by the union's board. Read more here. Now here is our conversation with Alana Lentin on The New Racial Regime The title of the episode is a reference to this tweet. Source of the image in the thumbnail. Some References: Dylan Rodríguez on Lexical Warfare & Counterinsurgency "Stop Asian Hate" as Zionist Policing with Dylan Rodríguez "Rosa Luxemburg and the Primitive Accumulation of Whiteness" by Siddhant Issar, Rachel H. Brown, and John McMahon The War on Anti-Semitism with Anna-Esther Younes Institute for the Critical Study of Zionism Anti-Zionism, Anti-Semitism, Decolonization & Islamophobia with Alana Lentin (MAKC episode) Prior audio episodes with Alana Lentin

In this episode, Sam speaks with Patrick Long of InnoSearch.ai and Mark Riccobono of the NFB about their new partnership to improve digital accessibility for blind users. Rather than focusing on basic compliance, the conversation explores true usability—addressing issues like unlabeled buttons and missing alt text. They emphasize the need for blind-led innovation and meaningful collaboration with the community. The NFB's long-standing advocacy efforts are discussed, along with practical steps tech companies can take to create inclusive products. A new checkout feature also lets customers support the NFB by rounding up purchases, blending commerce with accessibility-focused advocacy. blind tech, assistive technology, digital accessibility, InnoSearch.ai, National Federation of the Blind, NFB partnership, screen reader usability, blind advocacy, accessible shopping, inclusive design, blind podcast, low vision tools#BlindLife #AccessibilityMatters #AssistiveTech #BlindCommunity #InnoSearch #NFB #DigitalInclusion #BlindAdvocacy #AccessibleShopping #InclusiveTechnology

In January, 2022 today's guest, Mike Paciello, made his first appearance on Unstoppable Mindset in Episode 19. It is not often that most of us have the opportunity and honor to meet a real trendsetter and pioneer much less for a second time. However, today, we get to spend more time with Mike, and we get to talk about not only the concepts around web accessibility, but we also discuss the whole concept of inclusion and how much progress we have made much less how much more work needs to be done.   Mike Paciello has been a fixture in the assistive technology world for some thirty years. I have known of him for most of that time, but our paths never crossed until September of 2021 when we worked together to help create some meetings and sessions around the topic of website accessibility in Washington D.C.   As you will hear, Mike began his career as a technical writer for Digital Equipment Corporation, an early leader in the computer manufacturing industry. I won't tell you Mike's story here. What I will say is that although Mike is fully sighted and thus does not use much of the technology blind and low vision persons use, he really gets it. He fully understands what Inclusion is all about and he has worked and continues to work to promote inclusion and access for all throughout the world. As Mike and I discuss, making technology more inclusive will not only help persons with disabilities be more involved in society, but people will discover that much of the technology we use can make everyone's life better. We talk about a lot of the technologies being used today to make websites more inclusive including the use of AI and how AI can and does enhance inclusion efforts.   It is no accident that this episode is being released now. This episode is being released on July 25 to coincide with the 35th anniversary of the signing of the Americans With Disabilities Act which was signed on July 26, 1990. HAPPY BIRTHDAY ADA!   After you experience our podcast with Mike, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at michaelhi@accessibe.com to tell me of your observations. Thanks.     About the Guest:   Mike Paciello is the Chief Accessibility Officer at AudioEye, Inc., a digital accessibility company. Prior to joining AudioEye, Mike founded WebABLE/WebABLE.TV, which delivers news about the disability and accessibility technology market. Mike authored the first book on web accessibility and usability, “Web Accessibility for People with Disabilities” and, in 1997, Mr. Paciello received recognition from President Bill Clinton for his work in the creation of World Wide Web Consortium's (W3C) Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI). He has served as an advisor to the US Access Board and other federal agencies since 1992.   Mike has served as an international leader, technologist, and authority in emerging technology, accessibility, usability, and electronic publishing. Mike is the former Founder of The Paciello Group (TPG), a world-renowned software accessibility consultancy acquired in 2017 by Vispero. Ways to connect with Mike:   mpaciello@webable.com Michael.paciello@audioeye.com Mikepaciello@gmail.com     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion diversity and the unexpected meet. Normally, our guests deal with the unexpected, which is anything that doesn't have to do with inclusion or diversity. Today, however, we get to sort of deal with both. We have a guest who actually was a guest on our podcast before he was in show 19 that goes all the way back to January of 2022, his name is Mike Paciello. He's been very involved in the whole internet and accessibility movement and so on for more than 30 years, and I think we're going to have a lot of fun chatting about what's going on in the world of accessibility and the Internet and and, you know, and but we won't probably get into whether God is a man or a woman, but that's okay, God is actually both, so we don't have to worry about that. But anyway, Mike, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Mike Paciello ** 02:21 Yeah, Hey, Mike, thanks a lot. I can't believe has it really been already since today, six years since the last time I came on this? No, three, 320, 22 Oh, 2022, I for whatever I 2019 Okay, three years sounds a little bit more realistic, but still, it's been a long time. Thank you for having me. It's, it's, it's great to be here. And obviously, as you know, a lot of things have changed in my life since then. But, yeah, very   Michael Hingson ** 02:46 cool. Well, you were in show number 19. And I'm not sure what number this is going to be, but it's going to be above 360 so it's been a while. Amazing, amazing, unstoppable, unstoppable. That's it. We got to keep it going. And Mike and I have been involved in a few things together, in, in later, in, I guess it was in 20 when we do the M enabling Summit, that was 2021 wasn't it? Yeah, I think it was, I think it was the year before we did the podcast, yeah, podcast, 2021 right? So we were in DC, and we both worked because there was a group that wanted to completely condemn the kinds of technologies that accessibe and other companies use. Some people call it overlays. I'm not sure that that's totally accurate today, but we we worked to get them to not do what they originally intended to do, but rather to explore it in a little bit more detail, which I think was a lot more reasonable to do. So we've, we've had some fun over the years, and we see each other every so often, and here we are again today. So yeah, I'm glad you're here. Well, tell us a little about well, and I guess what we'll do is do some stuff that we did in 2022 tell us about kind of the early Mike, growing up and all that and what eventually got you into dealing with all this business of web accessibility and such. Yeah, thank you.   Mike Paciello ** 04:08 You know, I've tried to short this, shorten this story 100 times. Oh, don't worry. See if I get let's see if I can keep it succinct and and for the folks out there who understand verbosity and it's in its finest way for screen reader users, I'll try not to be verbose. I already am being   Michael Hingson ** 04:28 intermediate levels fine.   Mike Paciello ** 04:30 I came into this entire field as a technical writer trying to solve a problem that I kind of stumbled into doing some volunteer work for the debt the company that I then then worked for, a Digital Equipment Corporation, a software company, DEC software hardware company, back then, right back in the early 80s. And as a technical writer, I started learning at that time what was called Gen code. Eventually that morphed in. To what Goldfarb, Charles Goldfarb at IBM, called SGML, or standard, Generalized Markup Language, and that really became the predecessor, really gave birth to what we see on the web today, to HTML and the web markup languages. That's what they were, except back then, they were markup languages for print publications. So we're myself and a lot of colleagues and friends, people probably here, I'm sure, at bare minimum, recognized named George Kercher. George and I really paired together, worked together, ended up creating an international steer with a group of other colleagues and friends called the icad 22 which is 22 stands for the amount of elements in that markup language. And it became the adopted standard accessibility standard for the American Association of Publishers, and they published that became official. Eventually it morphed into what we today call, you know, accessible web development. It was the first instance by that was integrated into the HTML specification, I think officially, was HTML 3.1 3.2 somewhere in there when it was formally adopted and then announced in 1997 and at the World Wide Web Conference. That's really where my activity in the web began. So I was working at DEC, but I was doing a lot of volunteer work at MIT, which is where the W 3c was located at that particular time. And Tim Bursley, who a lot of people i Sir, I'm sure, know, the inventor of the web, led the effort at that time, and a few other folks that I work with, and.da Jim Miller, a few other folks. And we were, well, I wasn't specifically approached. Tim was approached by Vice President Gore and eventually President Clinton at that time to see if we could come up with some sort of technical standard for accessibility. And Tim asked if I'd like to work on it myself. Danielle, Jim, a few others, we did, and we came up that first initial specification and launched it as part of the Web Accessibility Initiative, which we created in 1997 from there, my career just took off. I went off did a couple of small companies that I launched, you know, my namesake company, the Paciello Group, or TPG, now called TPG IGI, yeah, yeah, which was acquired by vector capital, or this bureau back in 2017 so it's hard to believe that's already almost 10 years ago. No, yeah. And I've been walking in, working in the software, web accessibility field, usability field, writing fields, you know, for some pretty close to 45 years. It's 2025 40 years, I mean, and I started around 1984 I think it was 8384 when all this first   Michael Hingson ** 07:59 started. Wow, so clearly, you've been doing it for a while and understand a lot of the history of it. So how overall has the whole concept of web accessibility changed over the years, not only from a from a coding standpoint, but how do you think it's really changed when it comes to being addressed by the public and companies and so on.   Mike Paciello ** 08:26 That's a great question. I'd certainly like to be more proactive and more positive about it, but, but let me be fair, if you compare today and where web accessibility resides, you know, in the in the business value proposition, so to speak, and list the priorities of companies and corporations. You know, fortune 1000 fortune 5000 call whatever you whatever you want. Accessibility. Is there people? You could say section five way you could say the Web Accessibility Initiative, WCAG, compliance, and by and large, particularly technology driven, digital economy driven businesses, they know what it is. They don't know how to do it. Very rarely do they know how to do it. And even the ones that know how to do it don't really do it very well. So it kind of comes down to the 8020, rule, right? You're a business. Whatever kind of business you are, you're probably in more online presence than ever before, and so a lot of your digital properties will come under you know the laws that mandate usability and accessibility for people with disabilities today that having been said and more and more people know about it than ever before, certainly from the time that I started back in the you know, again, in the early, mid 80s, to where we are today. It's night and day. But in terms of prioritization, I don't know. I think what happens quite often is business value proposition. Decisions get in the way. Priorities get in the way of what a business in, what its core business are, what they're trying to accomplish, who they're trying to sell, sell to. They still view the disability market, never mind the blind and low vision, you know, market alone as a niche market. So they don't make the kind of investors that I, I believe that they could, you know, there's certainly, there are great companies like like Microsoft and and Google, Amazon, Apple, you know, a lot of these companies, you know, have done some Yeoman work at that level, but it's nowhere near where it should be. It just absolutely isn't. And so from that standpoint, in where I envision things, when I started this career was when I was in my 20 somethings, and now I'm over now I'm over 60. Well over 60. Yeah, I expected a lot more in, you know, in an internet age, much, much more.   Michael Hingson ** 11:00 Yeah, yeah. Well, it's it's really strange that so much has happened and yet so much hasn't happened. And I agree with you, there's been a lot of visibility for the concept of accessibility and inclusion and making the the internet a better place, but it is so unfortunate that most people don't know how to how to do anything with it. Schools aren't really teaching it. And more important than even teaching the coding, from from my perspective, looking at it more philosophically, what we don't tend to see are people really recognizing the value of disabilities, and the value that the market that people with disabilities bring to the to the world is significant. I mean, the Center for Disease Control talks about the fact that they're like up to 25% of all Americans have some sort of disability. Now I take a different approach. Actually. I don't know whether you've read my article on it, but I believe everyone on the in the in the world has a disability, and the reality is, most people are light dependent, but that's as much a disability as blindness. Except that since 1878 when Thomas Edison invented the light bulb. We have focused nothing short of trying to do everything we can to improve light on demand for the last 147 years. And so the disability is mostly covered up, but it's still there.   Mike Paciello ** 12:37 You know, yeah, and I did read that article, and I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, I personally think, and I actually have my own blog coming out, and probably later this month might be early, early July, where I talk about the fact that accessibility okay and technology really has been all along. And I love the fact that you call, you know, you identified the, you know, the late 1800s there, when Edison did the the light bulb, Alexander Graham Bell came up with, you know, the telephone. All of those adventures were coming about. But accessibility to people with disabilities, regardless of what their disability is, has always been a catalyst for innovation. That was actually supposed to be the last one I was going to make tonight. Now it's my first point because, because I think it is exactly as you said, Mike, I think that people are not aware. And when I say people, I mean the entire human population, I don't think that we are aware of the history of how, how, because of, I'm not sure if this is the best word, but accommodating users, accommodating people with disabilities, in whatever way, the science that goes behind that design architectural to the point of development and release, oftentimes, things that were done behalf of people with disabilities, or for People with disabilities, resulted in a fundamental, how's this for? For an interesting term, a fundamental alteration right to any other you know, common, and I apologize for the tech, tech, tech language, user interface, right, right? Anything that we interact with has been enhanced because of accessibility, because of people saying, hey, if we made this grip a little bit larger or stickier, we'll call it so I can hold on to it or softer for a person that's got fine motor dexterity disabilities, right? Or if we made a, you know, a web browser, which, of course, we have such that a blind individual, a low vision individual, can adjust the size of this, of the images and the fonts and things like that on a web page, they could do that unknown. Well, these things now. As we well know, help individuals without disabilities. Well, I'm not much, right, and I, again, I'm not speaking as a person beyond your characterization that, hey, look, we are all imperfect. We all have disabilities. And that is, that is absolutely true. But beyond that, I wear glasses. That's it. I do have a little hearing loss too. But you know, I'm finding myself more and more, for example, increasing the size of text. In fact, my note, yes, I increase them to, I don't know they're like, 18 point, just so that it's easier to see. But that is a common thing for every human being, just like you said.   Michael Hingson ** 15:36 Well, the reality is that so many tools that we use today come about. And came about because of people with disabilities. Peggy Chung Curtis Chung's wife, known as the blind history lady, and one of the stories that she told on her first visit to unstoppable mindset, which, by the way, is episode number five. I remember that Peggy tells the story of the invention of the typewriter, which was invented for a blind countist, because she wanted to be able to communicate with her lover without her husband knowing about it, and she didn't want to dictate things and so on. She wanted to be able to create a document and seal it, and that way it could be delivered to the lever directly. And the typewriter was the result of   Mike Paciello ** 16:20 that? I didn't know that. I will definitely go back. I just wrote it down. I wrote down a note that was episode number five, yeah, before with Curtis a couple of times, but obviously a good friend of ours, yeah, but I yeah, that's, that's, that's awesome.   Michael Hingson ** 16:37 Well, and look at, I'll tell you one of the things that really surprises me. So Apple was going to get sued because they weren't making any of their products accessible. And before the lawsuit was filed, they came along and they said, we'll fix it. And they did make and it all started to a degree with iTunes U but also was the iPhone and the iPod and so on. But they they, they did the work. Mostly. They embedded a screen reader called Voiceover in all of their operating systems. They did make iTunes you available. What really surprises me, though is that I don't tend to see perhaps some things that they could do to make voiceover more attractive to drivers so they don't have to look at the screen when a phone call comes in or whatever. And that they could be doing some things with VoiceOver to make it more usable for sighted people in a lot of instances. And I just don't, I don't see any emphasis on that, which is really surprising to me.   Mike Paciello ** 17:38 Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, there are a lot of use cases there that you go for. I think Mark Rico would certainly agree with you in terms of autonomous driving for the blind, right? Sure that too. But yeah, I definitely agree and, and I know the guy that the architect voiceover and develop voiceover for Apple and, boy, why can I think of his last name? I know his first name. First name is Mike. Is with Be My Eyes now and in doing things at that level. But I will just say one thing, not to correct you, but Apple had been in the accessibility business long before voice over Alan Brightman and Gary mulcher were instrumental towards convincing, you know, jobs of the importance of accessibility to people with disabilities,   Michael Hingson ** 18:31 right? But they weren't doing anything to make products accessible for blind people who needed screen readers until that lawsuit came along. Was   Mike Paciello ** 18:40 before screen readers? Yeah, that was before,   Michael Hingson ** 18:43 but they did it. Yeah. The only thing I wish Apple would do in that regard, that they haven't done yet, is Apple has mandates and requirements if you're going to put an app in the App Store. And I don't know whether it's quite still true, but it used to be that if your app had a desktop or it looked like a Windows desktop, they wouldn't accept it in the app store. And one of the things that surprises me is that they don't require that app developers make sure that their products are usable with with VoiceOver. And the reality is that's a it doesn't need to be a really significantly moving target. For example, let's say you have an app that is dealing with displaying star charts or maps. I can't see the map. I understand that, but at least voiceover ought to give me the ability to control what goes on the screen, so that I can have somebody describe it, and I don't have to spend 15 or 20 minutes describing my thought process, but rather, I can just move things around on the screen to get to where we need to go. And I wish Apple would do a little bit more in that regard.   Mike Paciello ** 19:52 Yeah, I think that's a great a great thought and a great challenge, if, between me and you. Yeah, I think it goes back to what I said before, even though we both see how accessibility or accommodating users with disabilities has led to some of the most incredible innovations. I mean, the Department of Defense, for years, would integrate people with disabilities in their user testing, they could better help, you know, military soldiers, things like that, assimilate situations where there was no hearing, there was they were immobile, they couldn't see all, you know, all of these things that were natural. You know, user environments or personas for people with disabilities. So they led to these kind of, you know, incredible innovations, I would tell you, Mike, I think you know this, it's because the business value proposition dictates otherwise.   Michael Hingson ** 20:55 Yeah, and, well, I guess I would change that slightly and say that people think that the business proposition does but it may very well be that they would find that there's a lot more value in doing it if they would really open up their minds to looking at it differently. It's   Mike Paciello ** 21:10 kind of, it's kind of like, it's tough. It's kind of like, if I could use this illustration, so to speak, for those who may not be religiously inclined, but you know, it's, it's like prophecy. Most people, you don't know whether or not prophecy is valid until years beyond, you know, years after. And then you could look back at time and say, See, it was all along. These things, you know, resulted in a, me, a major paradigm shift in the way that we do or don't do things. And I think that's exactly what you're saying. You know, if, if people would really look at the potential of what technologies like, you know, a voice over or, as you know, a good friend of mine said, Look, we it should be screen readers. It should be voice IO interfaces, right? That every human can use and interact with regardless. That's what we're really talking about. There's   Michael Hingson ** 22:10 a big discussion going on some of the lists now about the meta, Ray Ban, glasses, and some of the things that it doesn't do or that they don't do well, that they should like. It's really difficult to get the meta glasses to read completely a full page. I think there are ways that people have now found to get it to do that, but there are things like that that it that that don't happen. And again, I think it gets back to what you're saying is the attitude is, well, most people aren't going to need that. Well, the reality is, how do you know and how do you know what they'll need until you offer options. So one of my favorite stories is when I worked for Kurzweil a long time ago, some people called one day and they wanted to come and see a new talking computer terminal that that Ray and I and others developed, and they came up, and it turns out, they were with one of those initial organizations out of Langley, Virginia, the CIA. And what they wanted to do was to use the map the the terminal connected to their computers to allow them to move pointers on a map and not have to watch the map or the all of the map while they were doing it, but rather, the computer would verbalize where the pointer was, and then they could they could move it around and pin a spot without having to actually look at the screen, because the way their machine was designed, it was difficult to do that. You know, the reality is that most of the technologies that we need and that we use and can use could be used by so much, so many more people, if people would just really look at it and think about it, but, but you're right, they don't.   Mike Paciello ** 24:04 You know, it's, of course, raise a raise another good friend of mine. We both having in common. I work with him. I been down his office a few, more than few times, although his Boston office, anyway, I think he's, I'm not sure he's in Newton. He's in Newton. Yeah. Is he still in Newton? Okay. But anyway, it reminded me of something that happened in a similar vein, and that was several years ago. I was at a fast forward forward conference, future forward conference, and a company, EMC, who absorbed by Dell, I think, right, yes, where they all are. So there I was surprised that when that happened. But hey, yeah, yeah, I was surprised that compact bought depth, so that's okay, yeah, right. That HP bought count, right? That whole thing happened. But um, their chief science, chief scientist, I think he was a their CSO chief scientist, Doc. Came up and made this presentation. And basically the presentation was using voice recognition. They had been hired by the NSA. So it was a NSA right to use voice recognition in a way where they would recognize voices and then record those voices into it, out the output the transcript of that right text, text files, and feed them back to, you know, the NSA agents, right? So here's the funny part of that story goes up i i waited he gave his presentation. This is amazing technology, and what could it was like, 99% accurate in terms of not just recognizing American, English speaking people, but a number of different other languages, in dialects. And the guy who gave the presentation, I actually knew, because he had been a dec for many years. So in the Q and A Part I raised by hand. I got up there. He didn't recognize it a few years had gone by. And I said, you know, this is amazing technology. We could really use this in the field that I work in. And he said, Well, how's that? And I said, you know, voice recognition and outputting text would allow us to do now this is probably 2008 2009 somewhere in that area, would allow us to do real time, automated transcription for the Deaf, Captioning. And he looks at me and he he says, Do I know you? This is through a live audience. I said. I said, Yeah, Mark is it was. Mark said, So Mike gas yellow. He said, you're the only guy in town that I know that could turn a advanced, emerging technology into something for people with disabilities. I can't believe it. So that was, that was, but there was kind of the opposite. It was a technology they were focused on making this, you know, this technology available for, you know, government, obviously covert reasons that if they were using it and applying it in a good way for people with disabilities, man, we'd have been much faster, much further along or even today, right? I mean, it's being done, still not as good, not as good as that, as I saw. But that just goes to show you what, what commercial and government funding can do when it's applied properly?   Michael Hingson ** 27:41 Well, Dragon, naturally speaking, has certainly come a long way since the original Dragon Dictate. But there's still errors, there's still things, but it does get better, but I hear exactly what you're saying, and the reality is that we don't tend to think in broad enough strokes for a lot of the things that we do, which is so unfortunate,   Mike Paciello ** 28:03 yeah? I mean, I've had an old saying that I've walked around for a long time. I should have, I should make a baseball cap, whether something or T shirt. And it simply was, think accessibility, yeah, period. If, if, if we, organizations, people, designers, developers, architects, usability, people, QA, people. If everybody in the, you know, in the development life cycle was thinking about accessibility, or accessibility was integrated, when we say accessibility, we're talking about again, for users with disabilities, if that became part of, if not the functional catalyst, for technology. Man, we'd have been a lot further along in the quote, unquote value chains than we are today.   Michael Hingson ** 28:46 One of the big things at least, that Apple did do was they built voiceover into their operating system, so anybody who buys any Apple device today automatically has redundancy here, but access to accessibility, right? Which, which is really the way it ought to be. No offense to vispero and jaws, because they're they're able to fill the gap. But still, if Microsoft had truly devoted the time that they should have to narrate her at the beginning. We might see a different kind of an architecture today.   Mike Paciello ** 29:26 You know, I so I want to, by the way, the person that invented that wrote that code is Mike shabanik. That's his name I was thinking about. So Mike, if you're listening to this guy, just hi from two others. And if he's not, he should be, yeah, yeah, exactly right from two other mics. But so let me ask you this question, because I legitimately can't remember this, and have had a number of discussions with Mike about this. So VoiceOver is native to the US, right?   Michael Hingson ** 29:56 But no, well, no to to the to the to the. Products, but not just the US. No,   Mike Paciello ** 30:02 no, I said, OS, yes, it's native to OS, yeah, right. It's native that way, right? But doesn't it still use an off screen model for producing or, you know, translate the transformation of, you know, on screen to voice.   Michael Hingson ** 30:27 I'm not sure that's totally true. Go a little bit deeper into that for me.   Mike Paciello ** 30:34 Well, I mean, so NVDA and jaws use this off screen model, right, which is functionally, they grab, will they grab some content, or whatever it is, push it to this, you know, little black box, do all those translations, you know, do all the transformation, and then push it back so it's renderable to a screen reader. Okay, so that's this off screen model that is transparent to the users, although now you know you can get into it and and tweak it and work with it right, right? I recall when Mike was working on the original design of of nary, excuse me, a voiceover, and he had called me, and I said, Are you going to continue with the notion of an off screen model? And he said, Yeah, we are. And I said, Well, when you can build something that's more like what TV Raman has built into Emacs, and it works integral to the actual OS, purely native. Call me because then I'm interested in, but now that was, you know, 1520, years ago, right? I mean, how long has voiceover been around,   Michael Hingson ** 31:51 since 2007   Mike Paciello ** 31:54 right? So, yeah, 20 years ago, right? Just shy of 20 years, 18 years. So I don't know. I honestly don't know. I'm   Michael Hingson ** 32:02 not totally sure, but I believe that it is, but I can, you know, we'll have to, we'll have to look into that.   Mike Paciello ** 32:08 If anyone in the audience is out there looking at you, get to us before we find out. Let us we'll find out at the NFB   Michael Hingson ** 32:12 convention, because they're going to be a number of Apple people there. We can certainly ask, there   Mike Paciello ** 32:17 you go. That's right, for sure. James Craig is bound to be there. I can ask him and talk to him about that for sure. Yep, so anyway,   Michael Hingson ** 32:23 but I think, I think it's a very it's a valid point. And you know, the the issue is that, again, if done right and app developers are doing things right there, there needs to, there ought to be a way that every app has some level of accessibility that makes it more available. And the reality is, people, other than blind people use some of these technologies as well. So we're talking about voice input. You know, quadriplegics, for example, who can't operate a keyboard will use or a mouse can use, like a puff and zip stick to and and Dragon to interact with a computer and are successful at doing it. The reality is, there's a whole lot more opportunities out there than people think. Don't   Mike Paciello ** 33:11 I agree with that. I'm shaking my head up and down Mike and I'm telling you, there is, I mean, voice recognition alone. I can remember having a conversation with Tony vitality, one of the CO inventors of the deck talk. And that goes all the way back into the, you know, into the early 90s, about voice recognition and linguistics and what you know, and I know Kurzweil did a lot of working with Terry right on voice utterances and things like that. Yeah, yeah. There's, there's a wide open window of opportunity there for study and research that could easily be improved. And as you said, and this is the point, it doesn't just improve the lives of the blind or low vision. It improves the lives of a number of different types of Persona, disability persona types, but it would certainly create a pathway, a very wide path, for individuals, users without disabilities, in a number of different life scenarios.   Michael Hingson ** 34:10 Yeah, and it's amazing how little sometimes that's done. I had the pleasure a few years ago of driving a Tesla down Interstate 15 out here in California. Glad I wasn't there. You bigot, you know, the co pilot system worked. Yeah, you know, I just kept my hands on the wheel so I didn't very much, right? Not have any accidents. Back off now it worked out really well, but, but here's what's really interesting in that same vehicle, and it's something that that I find all too often is is the case if I were a passenger sitting in the front seat, there's so much that I as a passenger don't have access to that other passenger. Do radios now are mostly touchscreen right, which means and they don't build in the features that would make the touchscreen system, which they could do, accessible. The Tesla vehicle is incredibly inaccessible. And there's for a guy who's so innovative, there's no reason for that to be that way. And again, I submit that if they truly make the product so a blind person could use it. Think of how much more a sighted person who doesn't have to take their eyes off the road could use the same technologies.   Mike Paciello ** 35:35 You know, Mike, again, you and I are on the same page. I mean, imagine these guys are supposed to be creative and imaginative and forward thinking, right? Could you? Can you imagine a better tagline than something along the lines of Tesla, so user friendly that a blind person can drive it? Yeah? I mean this is, have you heard or seen, you know, metaphorically speaking, or that's okay, a an advertisement or PR done by any, any company, because they're all, all the way across the board, that hasn't featured what it can do to enhance lives of people with disabilities. Where it wasn't a hit. I mean, literally, it was, yeah, you see these commercials played over and over to Apple, Microsoft, Emma, I see McDonald's, Walmart. I mean, I could just name, name the one after another. Really, really outstanding. Salesforce has done it. Just incredible. They would do it, yeah. I mean, there is there any more human centric message than saying, Look what we've built and designed we're releasing to the masses and everyone, anyone, regardless of ability, can use it. Yeah, that, to me, is that's, I agree that's a good route, right for marketing and PR, good,   Michael Hingson ** 37:03 yeah. And yet they don't, you know, I see commercials like about one of the one of the eye injections, or whatever Bobby is, Mo or whatever it is. And at the beginning, the woman says, I think I'm losing sight of the world around me. You know that's all about, right? It's eyesight and nothing else. And I appreciate, I'm all for people keeping their eyesight and doing what's necessary. But unfortunately, all too often, we do that at the detriment of of other people, which is so unfortunate.   Mike Paciello ** 37:39 Yeah, you know again, not to, not to get off the subject, but one of my favorite books is rethinking competitive advantage, by Ram Sharon. I don't know if you know know him, but the guy is one of my heroes in terms of just vision and Business and Technology. And in this, this book, he wrote this a couple of years ago. He said this one this is his first rule of competition in the digital age. The number one rule was simply this, a personalized consumer experience, key to exponential growth. That's exactly you and I are talking about personally. I want to see interfaces adapt to users, rather than what we have today, which is users having to adapt to the interface.   Michael Hingson ** 38:32 Yeah, and it would make so much sense to do so. I hope somebody out there is listening and will maybe take some of this to heart, because if they do it right, they can have a huge market in no time at all, just because they show they care. You know, Nielsen Company did a survey back in 2016 where they looked at a variety of companies and consumers and so on. And if I recall the numbers right, they decided that people with disabilities are 35% more likely to continue to work with and shop, for example, at companies that really do what they can to make their websites and access to their products accessible, as opposed to not. And that's that's telling. It's so very telling. But we don't see people talking about that nearly like we should   Mike Paciello ** 39:20 you talk about a business value proposition. There is bullet proof that where you are leaving money on the table, yep, and a lot of it, yeah, exactly. We're not talking about 1000s or hundreds of 1000s. We're talking about billions and trillions, in some instances, not an exaggeration by any stretch of the imagination, very, very simple math. I had this conversation a couple years ago with the CEO of Pearson. At that time, he's retired, but, you know, I told him, if you spent $1 for every person that it was in the world with. Disability, you're, you're, you're talking about 1/4 of the population, right? It's simple math, simple math,   Michael Hingson ** 40:08 but people still won't do it. I mean, we taught you to mention section 508, before with the whole issue of web access, how much of the government has really made their websites accessible, even though it's the law?   Mike Paciello ** 40:19 Yeah, three years, three or four years ago, they did a study, and they found out that the good that every federal agency, most of the federal agencies, were not even keeping up thinking with reporting of the status, of where they were, and yet that was written right into the five way law. They were mandated to do it, and they still did do   Michael Hingson ** 40:37 it. We haven't, you know, the whole Americans with Disabilities Act. Finally, the Department of Justice said that the internet is a place of business, but still, it's not written in the law. And of course, we only see about 3% of all websites that tend to have any level of access. And there's no reason for that. It's not that magical. And again, I go back to what do we do to get schools and those who teach people how to code to understand the value of putting in accessibility right from the outset?   Mike Paciello ** 41:10 Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. I think this is what Kate sanka is trying to do with with Teach access. In fact, you know, again, my company, TPG was one of the founding companies have teach access back again, 10 years ago, when it first started. But that's where it starts. I mean, they're, they're pretty much focused on post secondary, university education, but I could tell you on a personal level, I was speaking at my kids grade school, elementary school, because they were already using laptops and computers back then it starts. Then you've got to build a mindset. You've got to build it we you've heard about the accessibility, maturity models coming out of the W, 3c, and in I, double AP. What that speaks to fundamentally, is building a culture within your corporate organization that is think accessibility as a think accessibility mindset, that it is woven into the fiber of every business line, in every technology, software development life cycle, all of the contributors at that level, from A to Z. But if you don't build it into the culture, it's not going to happen. So I would love to see a lot more being done at that level. But yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it's a hero. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:34 we're, we're left out of the conversation so much. Yeah, yeah, totally. So you, you sold TPG, and you then formed, or you had web able and then able Docs.   Mike Paciello ** 42:48 So what web able came out was a carve out, one of two carve outs that I had from when I sold TPG. The other was open access technologies, which which eventually was sold to another accessibility company primarily focused on making documentation accessible to meet the WCAG and other standards requirements and web able I carved out. It's been a kind of a hobby of mine now, for since I sold TPG, I'm still working on the back end, ironically, from the get go, so we're talking, you know, again, eight years ago, I had built machine learning and AI into it. From then back then, I did so that what it does is it very simply, goes out and collects 1000s and 1000s of articles as it relates to technology, people with disabilities, and then cleans them up and post them to web able.com I've got a lot more playing for it, but that's in a nutshell. That's what it does. And I don't we do some we do some QA review to make sure that the cleanup in terms of accessibility and the articles are are properly formatted and are accessible. We use the web aim API, but yeah, works like magic. Works like clockwork, and that's got aI uses IBM Watson AI built into it. Yeah, enable docs was abledocs was, how should I say this in a nice way, abledocs was a slight excursion off of my main route. It can work out. I wish it had. It had a lot of potential, much like open access technologies, but they both suffered from owners who really, really not including myself, who just didn't have good vision and in lack humility,   Michael Hingson ** 44:43 yeah. How's that? There you go. Well, so not to go political or anything, but AI in general is interesting, and I know that there have been a lot of debates over the last few years about artificial. Intelligence and helping to make websites accessible. There are several companies like AudioEye, user way, accessibe and so on that to one degree or another, use AI. What? What? So in general, what do you think about AI and how it's going to help deal with or not, the whole issue of disabilities and web access,   Mike Paciello ** 45:22 yeah, and we're going to set aside Neil Jacobs thoughts on how he sees it in the future, right? Although I have to tell you, he gave me some things to think about, so we'll just set that to to the side. So I think what AI offers today is something that I thought right away when it started to see the, you know, the accessibes, the user ways, the audio, eyes, and all the other companies kind of delving into it, I always saw potential to how's this remediate a fundamental problem or challenge, let's not call it a problem, a challenge that we were otherwise seeing in the professional services side of that equation around web accessibility, right? So you get experts who use validation tools and other tools, who know about code. Could go in and they know and they use usability, they use user testing, and they go in and they can tell you what you need to do to make your digital properties right, usable and accessible. People with disabilities, all well and good. That's great. And believe me, I had some of the best people, if not the best people in the world, work for me at one time. However, there are a couple of things it could not do in it's never going to do. Number one, first and foremost, from my perspective, it can't scale. It cannot scale. You can do some things at, you know, in a large way. For example, if, if a company is using some sort of, you know, CMS content management system in which their entire sites, you know, all their sites, all their digital properties, you know, are woven into templates, and those templates are remediated. So that cuts down a little bit on the work. But if you go into companies now, it's not like they're limited to two or three templates. Now they've got, you know, department upon department upon department, everybody's got a different template. So even those are becoming very vos, very verbose and very plentiful. So accessibility as a manual effort doesn't really scale well. And if it does, even if it could, it's not fast enough, right? So that's what AI does, AI, coupled with automation, speeds up that process and delivers a much wider enterprise level solution. Now again, AI automation is not, is not a whole, is not a holistic science. You know, it's not a silver bullet. David Marathi likes to use the term, what is he? He likes the gold standard. Well, from his perspective, and by the way, David Marathi is CEO of audio. Eye is a combination of automation AI in expert analysis, along with the use of the integration of user testing and by user testing, it's not just personas, but it's also compatibility with the assistive technologies that people with disabilities use. Now, when you do that, you've got something that you could pattern after a standard software development life cycle, environment in which you integrate all of these things. So if you got a tool, you integrate it there. If you've got, you know, a digital accessibility platform which does all this automation, AI, right, which, again, this is the this is a forester foresters take on the the the daps, as they calls it. And not really crazy about that, but that's what they are. Digital Accessibility platforms. It allows us to scale and scale at costs that are much lower, at speeds that are much faster, and it's just a matter of like any QA, you've got to check your work, and you've got it, you can't count on that automation being absolute. We know for a fact that right now, at best, we're going to be able to get 35 to 40% accuracy, some claim, larger different areas. I'm still not convinced of that, but the fact of the matter is, it's like anything else. Technology gets better as it goes, and we'll see improvements over time periods.   Michael Hingson ** 49:49 So here's here's my thought, yeah, let's say you use AI in one of the products that's out there. And I. You go to a website and you include it, and it reasonably well makes the website 50% more usable and accessible than it was before. I'm just, I just threw out that number. I know it's random. Go ahead, Yep, yeah, but let's say it does that. The reality is that means that it's 50% that the web developers, the web coders, don't have to do because something else is dealing with it. But unfortunately, their mentality is not to want to deal with that because they also fear it. But, you know, I remember back in the mid 1980s I started a company because I went off and tried to find a job and couldn't find one. So I started a company with a couple of other people, where we sold early PC based CAD systems to architects, right? And we had AutoCAD versus CAD. Another one called point line, which was a three dimensional system using a y cap solid modeling board that took up two slots in your PC. So it didn't work with all PCs because we didn't have enough slots. But anyway, right, right, right. But anyway, when I brought architects in and we talked about what it did and we showed them, many of them said, I'll never use that. And I said, why? Well, it does work, and that's not the question. But the issue is, we charge by the time, and so we take months to sometimes create designs and projects, right? And so we can't lose that revenue. I said, you're looking at it all wrong. Think about it this way, somebody gives you a job, you come back and you put it in the CAD system. You go through all the iterations it takes, let's just say, two weeks. Then you call your customer in. You use point line, and you can do a three dimensional walk through and fly through. You can even let them look out the window and see what there is and all that they want to make changes. They tell you the changes. You go off and you make the changes. And two weeks later, now it's a month, you give them their finished product, all the designs, all the plots and all that, all done, and you charge them exactly the same price you were going to charge them before. Now you're not charging for your time, you're charging for your expertise, right? And I think that same model still holds true that the technology, I think most people will agree that it is not perfect, but there are a lot of things that it can do. Because the reality is, the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, are all things that can be defined with computer code, whether it necessarily does it all well with AI or not, is another story. But if it does it to a decent fraction, it makes all the difference in terms of what you're able to do and how quickly you can do   Mike Paciello ** 52:52 it. Yeah, I can argue with that at all. I think any time that we can make our jobs a little bit easier so that we can focus where we should be focused. In this case, as you said, the expertise side of it, right to fix those complicated scenarios or situations that require a hands on surgical like Right? Expertise, you can do that now. You've got more hours more time because it's been saved. The only thing I would say, Mike, about what, what you just said, is that there with that, with that mindset, okay, comes responsibility. Oh, yeah, in this is where I think in everybody that knows anything about this environment, you and I have an intimate understanding of this. The whole overlay discussion is the biggest problem with what happened was less about the technology and more about what claims are being made. Yeah, the technology could do which you could not do in, in some cases, could never do, or would never, would never do, well, right? So if you create, and I would submit this is true in as a fundamental principle, if you create a technology of any kind, you must, in truth, inform your clients of of what it can and cannot do so they understand the absolute value to them, because the last thing you want, because, again, we live in a, unfortunately, a very litigious world. Right soon as there's   Michael Hingson ** 54:49 a mistake couldn't happen,   Mike Paciello ** 54:51 they'll go right after you. So now you know, and again, I don't I'm not necessarily just blaming the ambulance chasers of the world. World. I was talking to an NFP lawyer today. He referred to them in a different name, and I can't remember well, I never heard the expression before, but that's what he meant, right? Yeah, it's the salesman and the product managers and the marketing people themselves, who are were not themselves, to your point, properly trained, properly educated, right? It can't be done, what clearly could not be said, what should or should not be said, right? And then you got lawyers writing things all over the place. So, yeah, yeah. So, so I look people knew when I made the decision to come to audio eye that it was a make or break scenario for me, or at least that's what they thought in my mindset. It always, has always been, that I see incredible possibilities as you do or technology, it just has to be handled responsibly.   Michael Hingson ** 55:56 Do you think that the companies are getting better and smarter about what they portray about their products than they than they were three and four and five years ago.   Mike Paciello ** 56:08 Okay, look, I sat in and chaired a meeting with the NFB on this whole thing. And without a doubt, they're getting smarter. But it took not just a stick, you know, but, but these large lawsuits to get them to change their thinking, to see, you know, where they where they were wrong, and, yeah, things are much better. There's still some issues out there. I both know it that's going to happen, that happens in every industry,   Michael Hingson ** 56:42 but there are improvements. It is getting better, and people are getting smarter, and that's where an organization like the NFB really does need to become more involved than in a sense, they are. They took some pretty drastic steps with some of the companies, and I think that they cut off their nose, despite their face as well, and that didn't help. So I think there are things that need to be done all the way around, but I do see that progress is being made too. I totally   Mike Paciello ** 57:11 agree, and in fact, I'm working with them right now. We're going to start working on the California Accessibility Act again. I'm really looking forward to working with the NFB, the DRC and Imperato over there and his team in the disability rights consortium, consortium with disability rights. What DRC coalition, coalition in in California. I can't wait to do that. We tried last year. We got stopped short. It got tabled, but I feel very good about where we're going this year. So that's, that's my that's, that is my focus right now. And I'm glad I'm going to be able to work with the NFB to be able to do that. Yeah, well, I, I really do hope that it passes. We've seen other states. We've seen some states pass some good legislation, and hopefully we will continue to see some of that go on. Yeah, Colorado has done a great job. Colorado sent a great job. I think they've done it. I really like what's being done with the EAA, even though it's in Europe, and some of the things that are going there, Susanna, Lauren and I had some great discussions. I think she is has been a leader of a Yeoman effort at that level. So we'll see. Let's, let's, I mean, there's still time out here. I guess I really would like to retire,   Michael Hingson ** 58:28 but I know the feeling well, but I can't afford to yet, so I'll just keep speaking and all that well, Mike, this has been wonderful. I really appreciate you taking an hour and coming on, and at least neither of us is putting up with any kind of snow right now, but later in the year we'll see more of that.   Mike Paciello ** 58:45 Yeah, well, maybe you will. We don't get snow down. I have. We've gotten maybe 25 flakes in North Carolina since I've been here.   Michael Hingson ** 58:53 Yeah, you don't get a lot of snow. We don't hear we don't really get it here, around us, up in the mountains, the ski resorts get it, but I'm out in a valley, so we don't, yeah,   Mike Paciello ** 59:02 yeah, no. I love it. I love this is golfing weather.   Michael Hingson ** 59:05 There you go. If people want to reach out to you, how do they do that?   Mike Paciello ** 59:11 There's a couple of ways. Certainly get in touch with me at AudioEye. It's michael.paciello@audioeye.com   Michael Hingson ** 59:17 B, A, C, I, E, L, L, O,   Mike Paciello ** 59:18 that's correct. Thank you for that. You could send me personal email at Mike paciello@gmail.com and or you can send me email at web able. It's m passielo at web able.com, any one of those ways. And please feel free you get on all the social networks. So feel free to link, connect to me. Anyway, I try to respond. I don't think there's anyone I I've not responded to one form or another.   Michael Hingson ** 59:46 Yeah, I'm I'm the same way. If I get an email, I want to respond to it. Yeah, well, thanks again for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening. We really appreciate it. Love to hear your thoughts about this episode. Please feel free to email. Me, you can get me the email address I generally use is Michael h i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, or you can go to our podcast page, which is Michael hingson.com/podcast, and there's a contact form there. But love to hear from you. Love to hear your thoughts, and most of all, please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening. We value your ratings and your reviews a whole lot, so we really appreciate you doing that. And if any of you, and Mike, including you, can think of other people that you think ought to be guests on the podcast, we are always looking for more people, so fill us up, help us find more folks. And we would appreciate that a great deal. So again, Mike, thanks very much. This has been a lot of fun, and we'll have to do it again.   Mike Paciello ** 1:00:44 Thanks for the invitation. Mike, I really appreciate it. Don't forget to add 10 Nakata to your list,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:49 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Send us a textPublic radio stations across North Carolina — especially in rural and coastal communities — are facing devastating funding cuts following the passage of the Rescissions Act of 2025. That includes WRVS in Elizabeth City, which could lose up to 70% of its funding. What does that mean for you and your neighbors? No local tornado warnings. No emergency alerts. No hometown voices spinning music, sharing stories, and delivering news from around the corner.In this episode of Shoreside, host Nicholas Merino speaks with A. Rima Dael, CEO of the National Federation of Community Broadcasters, about why these cuts could dismantle essential public safety infrastructure and silence vital community voices. Dael, a veteran of NPR and local radio, explains how local media is more than entertainment — it's culture, it's connection, and in some cases, it's life-saving.Hear why radio still matters — especially in North Carolina — and what you can do to support your public media in their work making waves. Support the showwww.shoresides.org

The National Association of Blind Students (NABS) is an active, thriving division of the National Federation of the Blind. In addition to extensive programming at National Convention, Washington Seminar, and virtual opportunities, the division hosts two student seminars each year in two areas of the country, tailoring content to a specific geographical audience. In this episode, Zachary Ledford joins Simon Bonenfant to discuss the upcoming Mid-Atlantic seminar, taking place from Friday, August 1st to Sunday, August 3rd at the Hampton Inn Center City Philadelphia. 1301 Race Street, Philadelphia. Zachary shares some of the many impactful opportunities for attendees, his personal journey as a leader in the federation, and how you can get involved! Interested in learning more and registering? Visit the registration page here: https://nabslink.org/civicrm/event/register?reset=1&id=6 For additional questions, contact Zachary Ledford, seminar chair, by emailing ledford.zachary38@gmail.com Interested in learning more about what the National Association of Blind Students can do for you? Visit their website at: www.nabslink.org If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love to hear from you! Have you attended a student seminar in the past or planning to attend Mid-Atlantic? Give us a call at: 267-338-4495, or send us an email at whitecanesconnect@gmail.com Additional show notes at https://www.whitecanesconnect.com//140/. 

Host Ross Connolly talks first with Representative Zak Harvey (R) Rutland-3 (Castleton, Fair Haven, Hubbardton, and West Haven) about his background, what drove him to be involved in politics, and how Vermont should avoid the path of socialism NYC seems to be taking.Then Sarah Scott, Deputy State Director for Americans for Prosperity New Hampshire, on the Granite State expanding education freedom programs.John Reynolds, State Director of the National Federation of Independent Business, discusses the private health insurance market in Vermont, and how state government policies are driving costs higher, and what can be done to improve the situation.and AJ Kierstead, Host of the New England Take Podcast lays out the potential political impact of President Trump's approach to the Jeffery Epstein case, and how it could demotivate his base supporters for the midterms.

Stephanie O'Brien formed her company, Coach Client Connection, 13 years ago to help coaches and experts connect with the people who need their services. She grew up in Manitoba Canada. She says that as a child she had great difficulties in developing relationships with her fellow children. As she said during our conversation, she tended to be too clingy among other things.   She began writing at an early age and wrote her first full-length novel at the age of twelve. She has written 14 books, four of which she self-published. As she matured, she began connecting with writers online and found that she could create relationships with them. She then learned how to make others around her feel interesting and thus also began learning how to establish real relationships with others.   As she tells us, she also began meeting with coaches and others to improve herself and her self-esteem.   We talk quite a bit during this episode about coaching and how Stephanie has created a program to help coaches better interact with clients and others. She even gives us a free gift to help us learn how to choose and interact with coaches.     About the Guest:   Stephanie O'Brien, founder of Coach Client Connection, has been helping coaches and experts to connect with the people who need them since 2013.   Throughout her childhood, she struggled to make connections with others. As the kid who was always sending invitations to the other kids, and seldom being invited herself, she knows what it's like to feel invisible and unwanted.   She immersed herself in her writing, and completed her first full-length novel at the age of 12. She went on to write 14 novels, four of which she self-published as ebooks (she calls the rest “teenage practice”).   As she began to connect with other writers online, she gradually honed the art of building relationships by making the people around her feel interesting, wanted, and understood. She also sought healing through coaching and therapy, and experienced firsthand the transformations coaching can bring. This gave her a passion for helping coaches to share those transformations with more people, so those people can enjoy the same freedom, joy, and recovery from old wounds that she did.   Since then, Stephanie has spent over 10 years helping coaches to get noticed, connect with the people who need them, and turn their expertise into coaching programs that their clients can easily understand, implement, and turn into real results.   When serving clients, she draws on her decades of practice in writing fiction and nonfiction, her ability to see both the big picture and the little details, and her experience as a client of both great coaches and coaches who left her discouraged and disappointed. She also uses the relationship principles she discovered to help set coaches at ease, draw out more of their expertise than they even knew they had, and make the process of creating their programs easy and fun. Ways to connect with Stephanie:   https://www.coachclientconnection.com/ https://www.instagram.com/stephanieobriencoaching/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephanie-obrien-program-design/ https://www.facebook.com/StephanieOBrienCoaching   Free Gift: https://www.coachclientconnection.com/How-to-Pick-a-Coaching-Topic-that-SELLS/   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. We're going to try to be unstoppable today as much as much as we can. Our guest is Stephanie O'Brien. O'Brien, good Swedish name Stephanie. I couldn't resist. It's a it's pleasure to have you here, and it's a pleasure to have all of you listening. Stephanie has been involved in coaching and connecting coaches and clients for 13 years now, my gosh, a long time, and we're going to learn all about that. And I know that Stephanie's got a lot of words of wisdom to talk about. So without further ado, as it were, let's get into all of this. So Stephanie, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Stephanie O'Brien ** 02:03 Thank you so much. I really appreciate you having me here. I'm looking forward to this,   Michael Hingson ** 02:07 and as I told Stephanie earlier, the rule of the podcast is you got to have fun. So, you know, we do our best. But anyway, let's start out with kind of the early Stephanie, growing up and all that. And you know, just to learn a little bit about you if we can   Stephanie O'Brien ** 02:22 sure, a big part of the reason why later came to have a focus on helping coaches connect with people was because for me, connecting people was connecting with people was really difficult. When I was young, I'd be the kid who on Saturday morning, I'd get on the phone at a call each of my friends one by one, only to be told that they didn't want to hang out. And I was seldom the one who got a call in return. So I had a really hard time connecting with people. Admittedly, I could be a bit clingy and boring, so I have to recognize my own faults and where I had to grow from there, but at the time, I didn't really know how to fix that. So yeah, I had a hard time connecting with people. Eventually, I started connecting with people through writing. I was a pretty prolific novelist. I finished my first novel when I was 12 years old. Terrible novel. Mom told me, Steph, don't delete it. And I tell her, no, no, it's so bad I'll never want to see it again. Mother knew best. I shouldn't have deleted it. But I went on to write 14 novels, four of which were good enough by adult needs standards, to Self Publish. And while I was doing all this writing, I started connecting with other writers, talking with them about their stories. I got very good at building relationships and asking the right questions to keep the conversation going, but I just kind of learned how to connect with people through trial and error. Though I've been still worked with some mentors to get better at it still. So now I use that experience, the writing experience, the ability to phrase things in a way that's easy to understand and connect with that experience. With building relationships, I help coaches to connect with more of their ideal clients now.   Michael Hingson ** 03:49 So have you always been in Manitoba? Yeah,   Stephanie O'Brien ** 03:53 I've always lived in Manitoba. Sometimes vacations are traveled outside if it always lived here, oh   Michael Hingson ** 03:58 yeah, lot of snow in the winter, oh   Stephanie O'Brien ** 04:01 yeah, it's been less severe lately, like it's in the last few years, we've had more 30 degree days in summer, fewer 40 degree below days in winter. But it still can get pretty cold.   Michael Hingson ** 04:14 Isn't that crazy? Well, but, and of course, some people say there's no such thing as climate change. So what do you do?   Stephanie O'Brien ** 04:20 You put out the pictures of me trick or treating as a kid versus me at Halloween this year, like I went from trick or treating in blizzards to walking on grass in November one. There's a difference.   Michael Hingson ** 04:33 Well, so you you went to school? Did you go to university? Or any of that? I   Stephanie O'Brien ** 04:38 was actually homeschooled, and I went to Athabasca University online, but I didn't take a full formal university education. Instead, I learned. I took courses from various coaches and business owners to learn how to run an online business. Wow, Peter, if you're gonna do a secondary education, you may as well learn from someone who's doing what you want to do, and to teach you how to do it   Michael Hingson ** 04:57 well. And as long as that, we're. For you that that's a good thing to do.   Stephanie O'Brien ** 05:01 Yeah, you've got to choose your education based on what you're trying to learn and what you're trying to accomplish. I don't like the cookie cutter model, or you got to get a college education because, yeah, learn what's relevant.   Michael Hingson ** 05:13 Well, I think there's value in college and or university, absolutely. And I went, I went to to the university, and I think for me, probably it was the best thing to do, because back in well, in 68 to 76 when I was at the University of California at Irvine, there weren't a lot of alternatives other than college for getting access to material, accessible stuff wasn't there. In fact, majoring in physics, my books had to be transcribed into Braille and and that that was a challenge, because professors didn't always want to provide information about what books they were going to use until as late in the process as they could, just in case a new book came out. And that that didn't work for me, and so one of the things that I learned was how to work with professors, and when necessary, use higher authorities than professors at the university to get them to provide what needed to be done. So that was that was useful, but the material wasn't accessible without me making a major effort. So probably college was would have been, anyway, for me, the way to do it. But obviously what you did worked for you. And so, you know, I figure it's important to   Stephanie O'Brien ** 06:29 just go to figure out what you want to do with your life, figure out what information or courses you need on that, and then, you know, pick the source that is most appropriate to provide it. It's there's no one size fits all,   Michael Hingson ** 06:41 no, and I agree. What do you do with people who say I don't know what I want to do with my life?   Stephanie O'Brien ** 06:48 Those generally don't tend to be our target audience, but I can help them in a few ways. I can give them a few questions that they can answer. You know, they can look at what is something that they really love to talk about can't get enough of talking about so they could study this forever. Is it something that they could you know, an area where they can help get results for people. Let's say they are really into relationships. They're fascinated by human relationships. Can they help people to communicate better? Can they help people to find better, healthier partners? Can they help them to avoid common conflicts with other people? Or, you know, what's a problem that they've solved for themselves, that they've healed in their own life. You know, maybe they had a really rough cancer journey and found out, you know, what went wrong, what went right, what could have gone right more to make it easier for them. Now, I know one person who she got through breast cancer and now teaches other people how to navigate that journey a lot more smoothly than what she experienced. Yeah. So, yeah, I encourage people to, you know, look at their lives. Look at what you do for free, if you had the option, if money wasn't an object, what fascinate? See what you're passionate about, and just see, is there a way you can use that to make other people's lives better?   Michael Hingson ** 07:54 Well? And that makes a lot of sense. And we, we all should do a whole lot more introspection and analyze what we do and and even ask ourselves why we do it, because we we tend to just move ahead and do stuff and we don't think about it. And the other part of what happens as a result of that is that we try to control everything that we do, we don't think about what we're doing, and we're a lot more afraid than we should be, and then we need to be, if we would only take the time to really be introspective and learn what is it that really is going on? Why do I feel this way? And as you're pointing out, what can I do about it? But if we really take the time to analyze. Then we figure out somewhere along the line, you don't need to worry about what you can't control, just focus on the things that you can and your life is a whole lot better anyway. Oh yeah,   Stephanie O'Brien ** 08:54 yeah, at Holyoke, give me the strength to control, our strength to change what I can the grace to accept what I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 09:02 well, and the reality is that one of the things that I talk about a lot is the mind's a muscle, and you need to develop it whoever you are, and the best way to do that is to think about what you do. I've learned that I'm not my own worst critic, I'm my own best teacher, and that's the way it should be. But I have to be open to learning and letting me and my inner voice teach. But if I do that, then I'm oftentimes, as I think back on it, very amazed at what I suddenly discovered that I didn't know before because I wouldn't take the time to think about it and study it.   Stephanie O'Brien ** 09:40 Yeah, we can get so busy, so caught up in our day to day lives, so ingrained in our routine. Sometimes it can be challenging to rattle ourselves out of that, and sometimes we need another set of eyes, or someone asking the right questions,   Michael Hingson ** 09:53 yeah, and then, and we need to take that time so. So for you. You, you studied, you worked with people. And so you what? Well, what kind of jobs did you have early in your your job world? Or did you always coach?   Stephanie O'Brien ** 10:12 Um, my first jobs, that was actually a waitress for a restaurant my mom owned, along with a couple other people. They were going to run the restaurant along with us. They were going to be the main ones owning the restaurant, and then they just kind of ditched us and left us with a restaurant we didn't know what to do with. So I was a waitress there for a bit before we sold the building and moved on. Then we tried owning rental properties for a bit, and honestly, no, never again. We were not cut out for that. It   Michael Hingson ** 10:34 was terrible, scary thing. Yeah,   Stephanie O'Brien ** 10:37 yeah, it's done. I can still lose like I'm fine with being responsible for me. I don't need theory to be responsible for me and all the tenants who call me during supper to mediate between their fights. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 10:50 this only so many hours in a day, and people need to take responsibility for themselves. So I hear you. So what did you do after that? That   Stephanie O'Brien ** 10:57 was after that that we started getting into coaching. You I'd been writing novels for pretty much as long as I could write, and I was going with mom. She was becoming a coach. She was studying under Mary Morrissey, so I went with her to learn how to use my fiction writing skills for business. And I started studying under Brendan Norman and then Ted McGrath. And yeah, they it was actually Brenda Norman who introduced me to the world of writing for marketing, and, you know, knowing how to focus on the results that people care about instead of the process that they don't really care about, how to phrase things in terms of the actual experiences that they long for, instead of just giving dry, vague descriptions issues kind of my gateway To the world of marketing.   Michael Hingson ** 11:37 So you you really, essentially came by the whole concept of coaching pretty naturally, by by just the the evolution of of what you did, which is pretty cool. How about your books, though, are, are any of them still available for people to get?   Stephanie O'Brien ** 11:56 Yeah, got four novels on my website. It's Stephanie O'Brien books.com where I host my novels, my short stories, my comics, my art, basically all my creative stuff that isn't coaching. And I've also got one non fiction book, one month program builder up on my website. I have written another one tell people with their marketing message, but that one needs to be updated. I'm planning to update and republish it eventually, but it just hasn't been   Michael Hingson ** 12:20 a top priority. So have you published all of your own books? Or have you worked at all with traditional   Stephanie O'Brien ** 12:26 publishers? It's all been self published. A lot of the traditional publishing route just seems like too much of a pain for them, still expecting me to do Mark most of the marketing. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:35 that's one of the things that has happened, is that publishers tend to not do nearly the marketing that they used to, which is, which is fine for those who really do know how to market, but there is also value in publishers doing a lot more to help than I think probably a lot of them do, but it's the way the world is going that we've we are so steeped in social media and everything now, people think that's the only way to market and it's not.   Stephanie O'Brien ** 13:06 Yeah. Anytime someone says their way is the only way, I immediately get suspicious, like they instantly lose credibility. There are so many different ways to market yourself and grow a business. The important thing is finding a way that works for you. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 13:21 And ultimately, one of the tests of whether it works for you is whether you see results or not. But, but true, it is still there is not just one way to market or sell for that matter,   Stephanie O'Brien ** 13:32 yeah, and if you're not having fun doing it, you know, it's kind of like your podcast, if you're not having fun doing it, especially because, yeah, I found that if I try and commit to a marketing method that I just really hate doing, I will struggle every day to get it done. I'll wind up procrastinating, I won't do it as consistently as I should, and I won't get results. So yeah, when you're choosing your marketing method, you gotta pick something that even if you're not totally ecstatic about it, you at least enjoy it enough that you can do it consistently   Michael Hingson ** 14:00 well, and you may discover later that you really do enjoy it, and that's that's part of it. We don't always necessarily know everything in our own minds the way we ought to. But if we, if we keep looking and we keep trying things and we find something, well, this is working. I'm not a great fan of it, but 10 years from now, you may discover that you learned a lot and you really love it.   Stephanie O'Brien ** 14:23 Yeah, you can always just experiment with it. You'll give it a 90 day shot it, don't. You don't want to just poke at it and then go, Oh, it didn't work instantly. But, you know, give it a be a good old college try. Give it a 90 day genuine try. And if you're really hating it, if it's not getting results, be willing to let it go. If it's getting results, if you're enjoying it, keep on going, working on refining it   Michael Hingson ** 14:42 well. And if you're getting results and you don't enjoy it, then it's probably worth exploring. Why don't you enjoy it? Yeah, that might be very telling also.   Stephanie O'Brien ** 14:53 And if it's something that can be outsourced, then you might want to look at outsourcing. Actually, it depends on the nature of what it is you.   Michael Hingson ** 15:00 Yeah, there is that. But if it's working that that, in of itself, is something right off the bat. Yeah, you   Stephanie O'Brien ** 15:06 don't want to ditch what's working unless you got something better to replace this.   Michael Hingson ** 15:10 That's that is always true. Well, so anyway, so you started studying, and eventually, when did you start your your business, and start coaching, seriously.   Stephanie O'Brien ** 15:24 Um, see, I kind of, I was kind of half probably coaching, partly writing for people, as early as 2013 that's where I got my start. And then just kind of gradually got more and more into coaching, as opposed to writing for people. So of course, even the other process of writing for people still involves a certain amount of coaching, because you have to help them understand, Okay, here's why I'm doing it this way. Here's what we need to communicate. Here's what you need to communicate as a follow up afterward. So there's a certain amount of coaching involved in that too, but it's been the last few years that I've shifted my focus more fully to helping people create their coaching programs, as opposed to, you know, writing marketing materials for the programs they already have. Now,   Michael Hingson ** 16:00 you've written a number of fiction books, right? Tell me about that that I'm still trying to figure out how to write a fiction book   Stephanie O'Brien ** 16:10 for me. Most of the time. It starts with me having a few ideas for scenes or relationships, etc, and then spending the rest of the time trying to justify their existence. Like here are a few really great scenes, and now I need to figure out all the other plot points that lead to this moment the books I've published so far. One of them is called cat girl roommate. It takes the concept of a cat girl, except that instead of being the stereotypical sexy cat girl, she's a cat girl who actually acts like a cat and thinks like a cat. I've owned cats pretty much as long as I can remember, so I just took a whole bunch of their ridiculous shenanigans, and put them into this one cat girl, like, how she'll, you know, the her roommate who's taking care of her, he'll make the same meal for both of them. But she doesn't want her. She wants his. It's the exact same thing, but she's sure that his is better. Such a cat thing to do another it's called a heroic lies. It's, um, kind of a dark twist on the superhero genre, where you've got this villain who keeps on kidnapping people, keeps on trying to fight the hero, except that there seems to be nothing in it for him. It kind of explores that whole Why is the villain putting so much into the fighting the hero instead of making his own life better with his own genius, and kind of puts dark twists on it? Oh, shoot. That's why.   Michael Hingson ** 17:20 Cute. Well, and speaking of cats, see who I have on the back of my desk chair here. Yeah,   Stephanie O'Brien ** 17:28 I noticed him moving around. But enough, I got one sitting in a chair right over there.   Michael Hingson ** 17:32 Well, stitch usually isn't in with me, but our house is being cleaned, and so her bed is is under attack, as far as she's concerned. So, so she came in here, which she usually does, and she'll just stay up on the chair. She's fine,   Stephanie O'Brien ** 17:48 yeah? My cat tape laundry day sometimes I finished, you know, laundering the sheets and making the bed. Okay, Brandy, your bed is ready.   Michael Hingson ** 17:56 Yeah? Well, stitch, stitch copes pretty well. And then there's my guide dog, Alamo, who's down on the floor. You can't see him, but he's he's down there and quite content. But stitch seems to be pretty well. She moves around a little bit, but she's planted herself on the back of the chair. And I didn't even think about it when I bought this desk chair to get something wide enough so that she could be on it, but it's worked out really well.   Stephanie O'Brien ** 18:23 And yeah, she seems very cozy and   Michael Hingson ** 18:25 content she is. And for those who don't know, stitch is my, my main coon rescue cat. We've had her now for 10 years, over 10 years. So since the bed is is being made and washed and all that. Then she's in here and she's fine. She'll get bored eventually,   Stephanie O'Brien ** 18:47 Hey, as long as she isn't wandering around screaming, as mine sometimes does.   Michael Hingson ** 18:50 Yeah, yeah, that's the big issue. Well, so you you got into this whole business of of coaching, and how did you start or working with her? How did you decide to start working with other coaches and coaching them in terms of dealing with clients and so on. While   Stephanie O'Brien ** 19:11 I was accompanying my mom to all these the training events, I just started falling in love with coaches and coaching. I saw all these amazing people who are trying to be their best selves, live their best lives, break free from their old patterns and beliefs and ways of being, instead of just being ruled by them their whole lives, and trying to help others to do the same. I just fell in love with it, of the idea of the ripple effect I could make by helping these people. I also became a client of some coaches, and I found it was really it really changed my life in a lot of ways, like helping me to overcome the emotional difficulties from that childhood I described, where people didn't want to be around me, where I couldn't make friends seeing the change it made in myself. I wanted to help more people to experience those transformations, and I wanted to help the amazing coaches who were making such a change to have more success and joy in their own lives, too. Yeah. But you know, as I was interacting with them, I found that I think they were in some ways, kind of too educated for their own good, because they say stuff like, I help you shift your paradigms. And I think I might have mentioned that earlier, but yeah, they they didn't realize that these things that had so much meaning for them wouldn't have the same meaning for someone who didn't have their training. So, you know, they here shift your paradigms, and they can instantly mentally connect it with a result, whereas the lay person here is that they can kind of speculate about the result that they don't immediately look up and say, Yes, that's the exact change I need in my life. But I was kind of the universal translator from Star Trek, helping them translate their coach speak jargon into layperson's terms and into the terms of here's what the people actually want.   Michael Hingson ** 20:42 If you were to define it, what would you say is the definition of a coach? What is a coach?   Stephanie O'Brien ** 20:50 I'd say it's somebody who that works. Doesn't just put a training program for someone to go through on their own pace. It actually works directly with the person. You're helping that person find the answers that they need, helping them to work through their own minds, their own circumstances, their own desires, and helps them ask the right questions is someone who helped them to figure out their own life or some specific aspect of their own life. They don't just give education. They also receive what the client has to say, and help the clients to work through it and understand it.   Michael Hingson ** 21:21 Yeah, I once heard a definition the difference between a coach and a therapist, mainly is that a therapist helps you find the answers, but the therapist knows the answers and can give you the answers, but a coach guide you, because you're the one who really has to discover the answers and figure out what it is that you need to deal with. So the coach will guide you and help you discover, but you have to be the one to do with the coach doesn't necessarily know nor provide the answers.   Stephanie O'Brien ** 21:56 Yeah, and when I'm working with coaches, that's definitely the case where you know they're the subject matter expert on whatever they're trying to teach on. I'm just the person who knows which questions to ask to draw out their expertise and help them to share it in a more effective way and to come up with it. Or you could draw it out of hiding in a more efficient way, instead of spending weeks trying to figure out what to say. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 22:19 So in general, what I you've talked about a little bit, but what are some of the challenges that you first saw in dealing with coaches when you first started?   Stephanie O'Brien ** 22:29 Well, there was the one I mentioned, where they didn't really know how to explain their services in a way that resonated with people. You know, they talked about the process they took them through, or the amount of content they were going to give them, or the amount of time they were going to spend with the person. Thing is, you're asking for a bunch of a person's time. That's not a selling point. That's a chore. You're you're going to spend five hours of your weekend on this. That's an anti selling point by helping if they one of those challenges then was, you know, not knowing what it is that their clients really want and addressing that. Another is time. Is a huge issue, I think, in the business world in general. So a lot of people struggle to find the time to create their coaching programs, or what time they have they don't use it officially, because they don't have a system for quickly and easily drawing out all that content and organizing it. Another is money. A lot of coaches are having trouble finding the right clients, connecting with them, conveying the value of their products and services to them, so that they actually go get those clients and get the money. So those I find, are three of the big challenges that coaches run into.   Michael Hingson ** 23:31 Yeah, I can say, having observed a lot about it, that a lot of people seriously undervalue or don't recognize the value that they bring, and so as a result, when they're creating courses or coaching or whatever, they undersell and don't charge what they're necessarily really worth. And there are reasons to avoid that and really charge what you're worth, but you also have to learn how to do that and learn how to figure that out. But people do tend to sell themselves short way too often.   Stephanie O'Brien ** 24:13 Yeah, when you're really immersed in your own expertise, can be so easy to start feeling like what you know is common knowledge, when in reality, it's stuff that a lot of people don't know. And even if they know some of the surface stuff, they don't know the same kind of depth as they don't know it in the same kind of depth as you do. Now, I've actually got exercises I take my clients through so they can kind of remind themselves of the depth of their own expertise and how much they know that their clients don't know. I'd be happy to share that if you want. Sure. Yeah. And for those of you who are listening, I hope you've got something to write this down and record this so I'm going to walk you through this exercise. Not only does it help you to really boost your confidence in your own expertise, it'll also help you come up with a ton of content for your coaching programs, your training programs, your content marketing, podcasts, newsletters, social media, posts. So, so yeah, definitely be ready to take notes on this. So your first step is to figure out what are the things that you can help people with. You know, just write it down in broad categories. Maybe you could say, I help them with marketing, with JVs, with getting referrals. So you put those broad categories, kind of break them down by the results. What are the results that you can help people get then pick one of those results. I like to use the example of a relationship coach who helps a single men to meet and marry the woman of their dreams. So the result is that this person has a loving marriage with the woman of his dreams, but right now he's single and lonely and doesn't know how to approach women. So then for step two, what you do is you'd write down the steps that you take your clients through, preferably in chronological order. I know not everyone can do chronological order, because some processes just don't happen in a specific timeline or a specific sequence, but if you can do it in chronological order, it's best to do so. So the steps that you'd write down say you're this coach you could write down, helping him to figure out what kind of woman he wants to meet, helping him to figure out where these types of women might hang out, how to approach her, how to have a conversation, how to get a first date, how to see if, how to conduct himself on that first date, and see if she's the kind of person he wants to keep dating. How to get a second date, if he wants and so forth. So once you've written down all these steps in chronological order, pick one of those steps and break it down further, this is where you really start to see the depth of the expertise that you have. So step one was figure out what kind of woman you want to meet. So you could ask questions like, what kinds of experiences do you want to have with your partner, and what kind of person would want to have those experiences with you? What kind of experiences do you not want to have, and what kind of person would give you those bad experiences? What kind of positive experiences have you had in the past that you want more of you if you need help to figure out what you want? Does Do you want a partner who wants to be a homemaker or a career woman or a business owner? Do you want a partner who wants to have kids with you, or who I'd rather stay childless? Does give them really specific questions that they can ask themselves to better understand you know what they wanted to better understand how they can go about this. And if you want to give them instructions for how to do something, make those instructions so specific that if an alien never even heard of your subject of expertise before were to read the instructions, the alien would know exactly how to do it. You don't feel like those software developers who go, okay, just click on this tab, this tab and this tab, okay, but how do I get to that tab in the first place? Don't assume that your clients know how to do the first few steps. Some of them will some of them won't. You don't want to leave that second category behind. And you can also look at what are the best practices they can use while doing this. What are some common mistakes? What are some examples you can give them of people actually doing this. And by doing going through this exercise, you can really get a clear view of just how much depth and detail you know about every single step in this entire process. And when you really break it down, every single step that goes into the process has so much nuance, so much detail, so many things that you could teach them, so many nuggets of wisdom you probably have that you might have even forgotten since it's become so second nature. I encourage you to do that exercise and remind yourself what an expert you are and come up with a huge amount of content at the same time.   Michael Hingson ** 28:22 Right? And then what happens? So   Stephanie O'Brien ** 28:27 what happens next? Of course, depends on what you're trying to accomplish. You know, if you once you've done this exercise, if you're trying to create a coaching program, you still need to figure out how you're going to deliver it, whether it's in group coaching calls one on one, a hybrid, or if you want to make a training program as opposed to a coaching program, you need to figure out how to price it, how what kind of posting software you want to use to deliver it. Those are some of the steps that come after. And of course, you need to figure out how to sell it, how to market it in a way that works for you   Michael Hingson ** 28:59 well. So coaches are human, like, like everyone else, at least, that's, that's the theory. And so you observed coaches having challenges. You've observed people not necessarily dealing with discovering the things that they should discover in order to be able to coach or to to progress. How do you find or how do they overcome those challenges? What do you do to help them overcome those challenges?   Stephanie O'Brien ** 29:31 It kind of depends what the situation is that's preventing them from progressing. So yeah, my first step would be, of course, to talk with them and figure out, Okay, what's stopping you from progressing? Is it that you feel you don't know enough to create a coaching program? In that case, let's see how we can draw out more information from you. Is it that you have too much information and you don't know which information to put in each offer because you don't want to try and shove it all in the same offer? It's just going to get cluttered, and people will feel it ripped off if they're paying for information they don't need. That might help them figure out if they. How many offers Do you want to make? What information goes into each offer if they're having trouble with time in my program, creation Made Easy. Course, the first thing I do with people is actually look at their schedule and figure out, okay, what are your priorities? What needs to be in your schedule, what can be paired out? Where can we make time to actually create your coaching program? So those are some examples of how I help people with some common challenges.   Michael Hingson ** 30:24 Do you find a lot of resistance people don't want to, or think they don't want to overcome the challenges because they don't really exist? Do you see a lot of that kind of challenge and that people just resist because they're really not thinking in as I put it, being introspective.   Stephanie O'Brien ** 30:44 I'd say one of the biggest challenges I find people run into that stops them from working with me is they want to do it on their own. And some people can do it on their own, but others wind up working on it for weeks on end. You say, Oh yeah, I'm working on figuring out this content. Then weeks later, I follow up, hey, how are you doing? I'm still working on it. We could have had it done in 60 to 90 minutes. Here, just one call with me, 60 to 90 minutes, and that could have been done. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 31:10 well, that's your expertise that brings that. And the result is that, again, people aren't thinking it through, and so the result is that they they continue to go in circles and not necessarily move to where they ought to be as quickly as they should. But at the same time, there's only so much you can do, because you can't force people to listen.   Stephanie O'Brien ** 31:39 Yeah, all I can do is, as with any business owner, work on getting better and better at communicating my value and helping people see why they're better off working with me.   Michael Hingson ** 31:47 Well, that's an interesting point. It's as much a learning experience for you, isn't it?   Stephanie O'Brien ** 31:55 Yeah, absolutely. Anytime you're finding that people aren't really responding here to your messaging, you need to look at your messaging or the way you're presenting it, and see, okay, Where can this be improved, and even if your messaging has been working, you know, things can shift to trends can shift. People can get overloaded on a certain amount of certain type of messaging. So you need to be prepared to adapt and to listen to people and see how their needs and their preferences are evolving.   Michael Hingson ** 32:19 Yeah, and I you, you bring up a really good point that I like a lot, and that is that things may be working. You may be doing something well, the question is, can you do it better? And I think that's a question that we should always be asking ourselves, can I even improve what I'm doing that takes humility to be able to ask that question. But it is still true. It's something that we should do, and that is really look at by doing this the best way I can. Can I improve it? And of course, that is something that you as a coach brings to it as well, because sometimes, if they consult with you, they can find out that you may approve of what they're doing, you may like what they're doing, but you can come up with other solutions that are even better. I love the whole idea of collaboration, and we don't. We don't see nearly as much of it as we should, and I think way too often, as you point out, people just want to do things on their own, but none of us are really an island.   Stephanie O'Brien ** 33:27 Yeah, I've had lots of mentors who helped me to get where I am, and I'm still learning from other people as I go, it   Michael Hingson ** 33:35 gets to be a real challenge. And again, you can't force people to do things that never is going to work. So you can't necessarily do that. And   Stephanie O'Brien ** 33:45 I hate that sales tactic where you try and force or bully someone into it, go run to the bathroom room and buy my stuff, or else you're going to be a failure in business forever. I am so over that, and if someone tries to pressure me into it, that tells me that they care more about their agenda than they care about me, and then they don't respect my boundaries in that point, their odds of making a sale pretty much hit the floor and start digging.   Michael Hingson ** 34:06 Yeah, you know, I learned a long time ago that people who really sell and do it well recognize that what they truly are are educators or counselors. You don't force people to do things. You need to really look at what a person needs and wants, and if you've got something to help them, then you you bring that into the conversation, but you don't, and you shouldn't force people. I've had so many situations where I sold a product and the product that I well, I should say I wanted to sell a product, but my product wouldn't necessarily do what the customer really needed. There were issues, whatever they are. So what am I to do? I could try to just continue to push our product on them, but I know that in the end, that's going to backfire. It's. Not going to work, people are then going to hate me or resent me, and they're never going to want to do business with me. So it's important to not push something that doesn't work. But I also took it a step further, more than once, which is to say, here's what will work, even though my company doesn't happen to have it, and when you really develop that level of trust by being honest with someone and pointing out this is what really works in the long run, that's going to earn you a whole lot more than you would have ever gotten any other way.   Stephanie O'Brien ** 35:34 Absolutely, it can make you more of a go to authority. I mean, people need something. They can come to you, even if it's not what you offer, you may not be the provider, but you know the provider, and it helps to foster good relationships with other business owners. If you have people that you know is trust and can refer to, I recently sought out a grant a person who's an expert in Grant. I've noticed her on a networking event, and I'm not really looking for a grant myself. Don't have much interest in grants at the moment, but I've had a few people for some reason, approach me and ask me, Hey, can you help me get a grant? No, not remotely. And you know, the first few times I had nobody I could even refer to, I tried to find some people who I could refer to, but couldn't really find anyone appropriate. So I finally find this one just, Oh, thank goodness you actually help people to find grants. Like these people wanted me to help them find a grant. Never mind, apply for it. Find one in first place, and I can't do that like I could learn, but I don't want to. But then here's this person who specifically teaches people how to do it, though, even though it wasn't my expertise or even something I needed, I sought her out just so I'd have that ability to refer people next time.   Michael Hingson ** 36:36 Well, that's pretty important to be able to do. I in my case, I'm thinking of a particular incident where we, I and a sales guy, one of my sales people, who had set up an appointment to go see a customer, and they wanted his manager to come, which was me, and we went. And I'm unusual anyway. I mean, how often do you see a blind sales guy coming in, holding a laptop projector and doing other things like that. And I actually did the presentation, and I also happened to be very technical, and so I asked a lot of questions, and learned that our product wasn't going to do what these people needed. But by the time we were done with the whole presentation, I said, and you can probably see our product won't do what you need, and here's why. But then I did, and that's the first time I really did it. I took the next step and said, but here's a company, and here's what product really will do exactly what you need, and here's why. The result of that was that two weeks later, we got a call from the same company saying we really took what you said to heart, and now we have another project. And because of everything you taught us, we know that what you have to offer is exactly what we need. Just tell us what it's going to cost, and we will order it today. We're not even going to put it on for bid, and that's what trust is all about,   37:59 absolutely,   Michael Hingson ** 38:01 and it's, and it's so exciting, but it's, it's unfortunate that all too often, people don't really look at the whole value of developing that trusting relationship, and that's got to be a volitional part of whatever you do in coaching, or anything that we do in business, or anything in our lives?   Stephanie O'Brien ** 38:21 Yeah, I've had too many people try and pitch me without first, building that trusted. And even if it's a free thing, like a free webinar, there's no such thing as free, yeah, even a free webinar still costs time that I won't get back. So it's like and see when COVID just comes crashing into my inbox. Pitch first that tells me they care a lot more about their agenda than they do about me, especially if it's something that's clearly in applicable, like, No, I am not going to join your group for single mothers. I've never had a kid. I mean, granted, I have this cat, and she is kind of a toddler, but I've never had the kind of kids you teach people to work with.   Michael Hingson ** 38:54 Yeah? So you've, you've never had kids yet.   Stephanie O'Brien ** 38:58 I'm not really planning to have already got cats.   Michael Hingson ** 39:00 Yeah? Have you gotten married? No, so you're not even in that but you've got cats. Well, that's fine. Now, when my when my wife and I got married, we decided that we were going to have kids. She was in a wheelchair her whole life, and she said that she was concerned it would have too much of a bad effect on our body. And what we decided to do, in addition to having dogs and cats, was to welcome nieces and nephews into the house, because we could kick them out at the end of the day, and that worked out   Stephanie O'Brien ** 39:31 really well, yeah, just hop them up on sugar and send them back. Yeah, that's what my grandparents did,   Michael Hingson ** 39:37 yeah. Well, worked for them, right? Yep, you seem to be surviving as a result. Well, I didn't die. Yeah, you're still you're still coaching. So that's pretty cool. Well, let me ask you this, if I can, if someone is thinking about being a coach or selling their expertise, how do they determine. Or how can you help them determine whether they're really qualified? Or how can they decide that they're qualified?   Stephanie O'Brien ** 40:07 I'd say the big thing is just to ask yourself, can I consistently get people results in this area? Now, obviously that depends on the other person actually doing the work to get the results. But do you know how people can get results in a specific area in a repeatable, reliable way. It could be anything from your relationships, improving your relationships, improving your health, improving your business, and it doesn't even have to be the whole journey. As long as you can help people take one significant step, you can help improve their lives, like even if you can't help a person go from single to married, if you can, say, Help married couples to stop having a specific type of argument. And for that matter, the more specific the problem you solve, the more people who have that problem. I want to see, oh, that's exactly what I need you. I don't need this generic relationship advice. I need relationship advice. I want this thing in particular, like, think about when you're, say, having a technical issue, and you want to say, let's say last night, I was looking for how to widen the navigation bar in a WordPress site, and I see all these results for you, how to improve your navigation bar, how to make a navigation bar, how to change a navigation bar. No, I just want it wider. The only result I'm interested in clicking on is how to make it wider. It's the same thing with your customers. You know, the more specific the result you can help them to get, the more the people looking for it are going to say that's exactly what I need. So don't assume that you're disqualified if you can't help them with their entire journey. Just focus on what is one big result that I can help people get. If you know how to get that, help them get that result, then you can help them to do that,   Michael Hingson ** 41:42 and it might also be that you do what you can do. But again, like you said about the lady who you've met who does grants, you can also get people in touch with other people who may be able to augment the successes or the results that you've already achieved, who may be able to do it better than you? So that you create essentially a teaming approach, even though each of you are working individually to help this individual? Yeah,   Stephanie O'Brien ** 42:10 absolutely. And you can do it kind of sequentially or concurrently. You could have someone be offer a guest module in your coaching course, if you say, you help people with nine steps out of 10, but it's one step in the middle. Isn't your expertise that you can have a guest expert come in and present in your course. Or if you help them with one step of the journey, but not the subsequent step, once they're done working with you, you can refer them to somebody else. Or if they're not ready to work with you, let's say you help people get on stages and present, but they that only really works and can be monetized if the person has something worth selling to sell. So if you meet someone who wants to get on stages but has nothing worth selling, though, you could refer them back to me, and I could get them ready for your services,   Michael Hingson ** 42:52 right? It's a process. And again, a lot of people don't think they're they're capable of selling. They they don't have the self worth, or don't think they have the self worth. And even the whole concept of this podcast, as I've said to many people, one of the main reasons that I love doing this is I get to show our audience members that they're more unstoppable than unstoppable than they think they are. And whenever I hear someone say, I learned this from this particular podcast, and it really showed me how I can be better than I thought I was. That doesn't get better than that. Oh yeah. And even   Stephanie O'Brien ** 43:35 if you're just starting out, just starting out, can actually be kind of a superpower, as I was mentioning earlier in this interview, people can get so ingrained in their own expertise, it can become so second nature. They forget what other people don't know, which can result in overly broad or vague explanations. Like I've seen some mindset coaches saying stuff like, notice what stories you're telling about the telling yourself about this situation, or notice what limiting beliefs you have well, if not, unless you're trained for that, you're not going to notice what the story or what's a limiting belief versus what's just a fact. You don't know how to tell the difference. So that's an example of how a coach who's really in their own expertise can totally forget that other people don't know how to do what they do. For someone who's just starting out and who remembers the very vividly what it's like not to know these things. It's less likely to make that mistake, more likely to be able to put themselves in the client's shoes, understand what the client does and does not know, and explain it in ways that a person who's new to this can understand. I thought to say a more seasoned coach can't do that, but there is that risk that they'll forget. So if you're just starting out, it can be just easier to relate to people who are also starting out and who are just a step behind you.   Michael Hingson ** 44:44 How do you teach people who are clearly experts in what they do, but who have forgotten that they weren't always experts in the people they're dealing with aren't experts? How do you teach them to go back and recognize. Recognize that and remember those things that they've clearly forgotten that would make them so much better, because they could then relate better to other people,   Stephanie O'Brien ** 45:08 mostly by asking questions. Do I kind of come at it from the standpoint as if I was their client? Okay, you just told me to do this, but how exactly do I do it? What are the exact steps I need to take, or what questions can you ask me to help me to figure this out. Now I basically act like I was there. We don't necessarily role play, but I do ask questions as if I was their client and didn't know how to do this thing.   Michael Hingson ** 45:30 Yeah. What do you do to help the person who's say, fairly new to coaching and doesn't think that they're good enough? And how do you teach them to recognize that really maybe they are or or maybe they'll discover that they're really not. But how do you how do you deal with that?   Stephanie O'Brien ** 45:50 Um, I take one of the things I do is I take them through that exercise I did earlier with you. Write out the list of steps you take. Break it down into sub steps. I often remind them how being new can be a superpower. I also invite them to look at the results they've gotten for themselves and other people in the past. Have you healed this issue in yourself? Have you helped yourself to lose weight? Have you helped yourself to raise your kids better? Have you helped yourself to improve your health? Or have you helped other people? Is this something that other people come to you for advice, and have those other people gotten results from working with you. Now, if you've never really gotten results for yourself or for other people, then you might want to make sure that you're able to actually get those results before try to teach people, because if you don't know how to get the result, then you're really not qualified to coach but if you can get the result, then you know how you got the result and can replicate that process with other people, then you are ready to coach people. You are ready to help them to do what you know how to do. One of   Michael Hingson ** 46:46 the things that I have always done when I hire new sales people, or even today, when I'm talking to people who are fairly new and something that they've decided to explore, take at least a year and be a student. You should always be a student, but especially for the first year, play the student card. Don't hesitate to ask questions. Don't hesitate even to ask your customer questions, because the more you ask, the more you'll learn. Because mostly people really want you to succeed, and they want to succeed, and you're bringing something to the party, you may need to figure out what it is, but if you start by being a student, then you're really at least half the way there to figuring it all out.   Stephanie O'Brien ** 47:35 Yeah, absolutely. And you know, having a podcast can be good for that. You can interview people and get there to share all this free information, and they get exposure. You get free information, you get content to share with your audience. It's a great way to open doors.   Michael Hingson ** 47:49 Well, it's true, and you know, in the it works both ways, because hopefully, for example, when I ask questions or we're talking about different subjects, hopefully you get something out of it too, and that's, that's what makes it really fair,   Speaker 1 ** 48:05 that's important to have win wins, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 48:08 well, so clearly, you know, we're dealing with a lot of different kinds of environments, and you're dealing With a lot of people. What about the person who doesn't think they have the expertise and so they're reluctant to charge more or charge what they should be charging? I think I probably know the answer to this, but I'm going to, you know, ask anyway, what do you how do you help those people recognize, let's assume, that they do have the expertise to expertise, but they don't think they do.   Stephanie O'Brien ** 48:44 One thing I can help them to do is look at the results they get and see just how valuable it is for their clients. So for example, let's say you help somebody to sleep better at night and have more energy. Obviously, there are health benefits for that. Here, you are less likely to have diseases. You're less likely to get into a car crash because you were groggy. You're probably going to have a better immune system the breakdown. I could break it down by the various categories of life. What are the benefits in their health, of course, in their relationships, if they have more energy, if they're less cranky, if they're in a better mood, they'll be more pleasant to be around people who want to be around them more they'll probably have better relationships with their kid, their friends, their spouse, their boss, their clients, their coworkers, and understand relationships that's healthy. And also look at time. How much time are they wasting on doing things slow, hard way because they're groggy and brain foggy and unable to work well? Yeah, I encourage you to look at every different area of your life that it the client's problem is affecting and that would be affected positively by the solution you give. I think this will help remind you just how valuable your solution really is. And if you're not completely sure that you can help people to get results, you know, look at the results you've gotten for yourself. Look at the results you've gotten for others. If you. Do have a good track record of getting results, then you know that's the site that you already have proof that you can if you don't have a history of getting results, then you need to work on developing your skill set learning systems that can get results consistently, or look at some other area of your life where you've already gotten results. But yeah, the important thing is that you need to be able to get results. And of course, you do have to also be realistic about okay, you can teach people how to get these results. You can also do things with them to help maximize the chances that they actually do the things you're teaching them and thus get results. But you do have to recognize that some people are going to choose not to do the things, and they will therefore not get the results. So as long as you know that if your system is followed and will get results, you've done your part, the rest is also on them.   Michael Hingson ** 50:47 Yeah, and a lot of times they may not get results, and who knows specifically why, but it's really important that they understand why they're not getting results. And maybe it is only, and I don't want to mitigate it, but it's only they don't have the confidence to ask, or they don't have the confidence to to reach out to help somebody get the results, which is also part of what they need to work on.   Stephanie O'Brien ** 51:14 Yeah, one thing coach that I like did, instead of just asking, do you hold He did ask, Do you have any questions? But if the people on he was coaching with didn't in his group called, didn't have any questions, he'd ask them to give an update. You know, what were you working on this week? What results were you trying to get? What results did you get? And this often resulted in him finding things to coach on that the person hadn't thought to ask. So, yeah, it's important to check in with your clients to see what kind of results they're getting, what kind of results they're not getting, and if they're not getting results, then explore that with them. You know, why are you not getting results? What did you do the action steps? Okay, if so, did you do them right? Did you do them wrong? If they didn't do the action steps, why not? And how can we adjust your schedule so that you actually can fit them in? What kind of resistance is there against doing these action steps, and how can we clear that resistance? That's really important to stay in touch with your clients and to get consistent updates on what milestones they are or are not hitting and why they are not are not hitting them, and be be prepared to address those underlying issues. Because often, while you're working on doing something, questions will come up that you didn't think you had earlier. You you discover nuances to it that you didn't know about, or you'll meet mental resistance that you didn't realize you were going to have.   Michael Hingson ** 52:29 Part of it, though, is also the art of asking questions and the art of asking the right questions. I, for example, really don't like to ask yes or no questions, closed ended questions, if you will, because you don't learn much that way. And so that was also one of the things that I did with the customer we mentioned earlier. I'll always ask open ended questions, because I really want to get not only the information that they they have that I feel is important for me to have, but I also get to know them a lot better. When I ask open ended questions and get them to really give me a detailed response, I'll learn a lot about them as well, and I think that's extremely important.   53:12 Now that makes total sense,   Michael Hingson ** 53:15 yeah, because it's it's so important to be able to ask tell me more about this. Or what is it that you find doesn't really work here? Or why do you like that? And really get questions that will make people think that also helps keep me alert when I when I keep thinking of questions. So it works both ways.   Stephanie O'Brien ** 53:43 Yeah, I'd say the ability to ask the right questions is one of the most important things for a coach.   Michael Hingson ** 53:47 Yeah, and if you don't necessarily know the right question, again, asking some open ended questions, and sometimes you might even want to say, what else is there that you want to tell me about this, or tell me more about this, so that you get people to offer information? And I've been in situations where I wasn't sure what to ask, but I can always ask something that will get people to offer more, that will help me think about, oh, I need to ask about this. Yeah.   Stephanie O'Brien ** 54:18 And you could kind of write a list of the pieces of information that you need to know about your clients you know, like, say, going back to that relationship coach, example, the piece of things that you need to know in order to help someone

The field for New Orleans' fall elections is now set, and there were a few last-minute surprises before the candidate filing deadline. The Times-Picayune/New Orleans Advocate's editorial director and columnist Stephanie Grace joins us to break down the crowded field of candidates. Last week, the National Federation of the Blind National Convention came to New Orleans. The convention is the largest gathering of blind people in the world, and it offers  training, support, networking and more to people from all over the country who are blind.Edward Bell was one of the guests that many were excited to meet. Bell is the director of Professional Development and Research at the Institute on Blindness at Louisiana Tech University. He joins us to talk about  his life and his mission to create more employment opportunities for the blind.According to the National Registry of Exonerations, more than 80 people in Louisiana have been exonerated after being wrongfully convicted.  Calvin Duncan is among them. While he faced his trial, and as he spent 28 years in prison for a murder he did not commit, Duncan started to learn everything he could about the law to fight for his freedom and the freedom of fellow inmates.Duncan and co-author Sophie Cull tell his story in the new book, "The Jailhouse Lawyer." The Gulf States Newsroom's Kat Stromquist spoke to them about the memoir. ___Today's episode of Louisiana Considered was hosted by Bob Pavlovich. Our managing producer is Alana Schreiber. We get production support from Garrett Pittman and our assistant producer Aubry Procell.You can listen to Louisiana Considered Monday through Friday at noon and 7 p.m. It's available on Spotify, the NPR App and wherever you get your podcasts. Louisiana Considered wants to hear from you!  Please fill out our pitch line to let us know what kinds of story ideas you have for our show. And while you're at it, fill out our listener survey! We want to keep bringing you the kinds of conversations you'd like to listen to.Louisiana Considered is made possible with support from our listeners. Thank you!

The summer 2025 season concludes with a great conversation with Lynda Gargan. Lynda shares some of her personal story of raising a son with mental health challenges, as well as her professional journey that led her to The National Federation of Families (NFF, https://www.ffcmh.org/). We discuss the importance of listening to our children, advocating for them, and mental health education. Lynda does a deep dive on all of the ways NFF works for families dealing with mental health issues and the mission of The National Federation of Families, which is a national family-run organization that serves as the national voice for families whose loved ones experience mental health and/or substance use disorders during their lifetime. Lynda stresses the importance of treating the whole person and how, unfortunately, there is such a division between treating those who struggle with both mental illness and substance use disorder.  Lynda encourages listeners to peruse the website and to call the NFF with any questions or for help. We conclude by discussing the annual NFF Conference (https://www.ffcmh.org/2025-conference), which will be held virtually this year.

You are in for a real treat on this episode. My guest this time is Greg Schwem. Greg is a corporate comedian. What is a corporate comedian? You probably can imagine that his work has to do with corporations, and you would be right. Greg will explain much better than I can. Mr. Schwem began his career as a TV journalist but eventually decided to take up what he really wanted to do, be a comedian. The story of how he evolved is quite fascinating by any standard. Greg has done comedy professionally since 1989. He speaks today mostly to corporate audiences. He will tell us how he does his work. It is quite interesting to hear how he has learned to relate to his audiences. As you will discover as Greg and I talk, we often work in the same way to learn about our audiences and thus how we get to relate to them. Greg has written three books. His latest one is entitled “Turning Gut Punches into Punch Lines: A Comedian's Journey Through Cancer, Divorce and Other Hilarious Stuff”. As Greg says, “Don't worry, it's not one of those whiny, ‘woe is me,' self- serving books. Instead, it's a hilarious account of me living the words I've been preaching to my audiences: You can always find humor in every situation, even the tough ones. Greg offers many interesting observations as he discusses his career and how he works. I think we all can find significant lessons we can use from his remarks. About the Guest: Hi! I'm Greg Schwem. a Chicago-based business humor speaker and MC who HuffPost calls “Your boss's favorite comedian.” I've traveled the world providing clean, customized laughs to clients such as Microsoft, IBM, McDonald's and even the CIA. I also write the bi-weekly Humor Hotel column for the Chicago Tribune syndicate. I believe every corporate event needs humor. As I often tell clients, “When times are good, people want to laugh. When times are bad, people need to laugh.” One Fortune 500 client summed things up perfectly, saying “You were fantastic and just what everybody needed during these times.” In September 2024 I released my third and most personal book, Turning Gut Punches into Punch Lines: A Comedian's Journey Through Cancer, Divorce and Other Hilarious Stuff. Don't worry, it's not one of those whiny, “woe is me,” self-serving books. Instead, it's a hilarious account of me living the words I've been preaching to my audiences: You can always find humor in every situation, even the tough ones. You can pick up a copy at Amazon or select book stores. Ways to connect with Greg: Website: www.gregschwem.com YouTube: www.youtube.com/gregschwem LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/in/gregschwem Instagram: www.instagram.com/gregschwem X: www.x.com/gregschwem About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:16 Hi everyone, and welcome to unstoppable mindset. Today we are going to definitely have some fun. I'll tell you about our guests in a moment, but first, I want to tell you about me. That'll take an hour or so. I am Michael Hingson, your host, and you're listening to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And I don't know, we may get inclusion or diversity into this, but our guest is Greg Schwem. Greg used to be a TV reporter, now he's a comedian, not sure which is funnier, but given some of the reporters I've seen on TV, they really should go into tonight club business. But anyway, Greg, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. I really appreciate you being here and taking the time   Greg Schwem ** 02:04 Well, Michael, it is an honor to be included on your show. I'm really looking forward to the next hour of conversation. I   Speaker 1 ** 02:10 told Greg a little while ago, one of my major life ambitions that I never got to do was to go to a Don Rickles concert and sit in the front row so that hopefully he would pick on me, so that I could say, Yeah, I saw you once on TV, and I haven't been able to see since. What do you think of that? You hockey puck, but I never got to do it. So very disappointed. But everybody has bucket list moments, everybody has, but they don't get around to I'm sorry. Yeah, I know. Well, the other one is, I love to pick on Mike Wallace. I did a radio show for six years opposite him in 60 minutes, and I always love to say that Wallace really had criminal tendencies, because he started out being an announcer in radio and he announced things like The Green Hornet and the Sky King and other shows where they had a lot of criminals. So I just figured he had to be associated with criminals somewhere in his life. Of course, everybody picked on him, and he had broad shoulders. And I again, I regret I never got to to meet him, which is sort of disappointing. But I did get to meet Peter Falk. That was kind of fun.   Greg Schwem ** 03:15 Mike Wallace to Peter Falk. Nice transition there. I know.   Michael Hingson ** 03:21 Well I am really glad you're with us. So why don't we start? We'll start with the serious part. Why don't you tell us, kind of about the early Greg schwim and growing up and all that sort of stuff, just to set the stage, as it were,   Greg Schwem ** 03:34 how far back you want to go? You want to go back to Little League, or you want to   Speaker 1 ** 03:37 just, oh, start at the beginning, a long time ago, right? I was a   Greg Schwem ** 03:41 very strange child. No, I you. You obviously introduced me as a as a comedian, and that is my full time job. And you also said that I was a former journalist, and that is my professional career. Yes, I went from, as I always like to say, I went from depressing people all day long, to making them laugh. And that's, that's kind of what I did. I always did want to be I majored in Journalism at Northwestern University, good journalism school. Originally, I always wanted to be a television reporter. That was as a professional career I was, I dabbled in comedy. Started when I was 16. That is the first time I ever got on stage at my school, my high school, and then at a comedy club. I was there one of the first comedy clubs in Chicago, a place called the comedy cottage. It was in the suburb of beautiful, beautiful suburb of Rosemont, Illinois, and they were one of the very, very first full time comedy clubs in the nation. And as a 16 year old kid, I actually got on stage and did five minutes here and five minutes there. And thought I was, I was hot stuff, but I never, ever thought I would do it for a living. I thought comedy would always be just a hobby. And I. Especially when I went to college, and I thought, okay, Northwestern is pretty good school, pretty expensive school. I should actually use my degree. And I did. I moved down to Florida, wrote for a newspaper called The Palm Beach post, which, don't let that title fool you. It's Palm Beach was a very small segment of of the area that it was, that it served, but I did comedy on the side, and just because I moved down there, I didn't know anybody, so I hung out at comedy clubs just to have something to do. And little by little, comedy in the late 80s, it exploded. Exploded. There were suddenly clubs popping up everywhere, and you were starting to get to know guys that were doing these clubs and were starting to get recognition for just being comedians. And one of them opened up a very, very good Club opened up about 10 minutes from my apartment in West Palm Beach, and I hung out there and started to get more stage time, and eventually started to realize at the same time that I was getting better as a comedian, I was becoming more disillusioned as a journalist in terms of what my bosses wanted me to report on and the tone they wanted me to use. And I just decided that I would I would just never be able to live with myself if I didn't try it, if I didn't take the the plunge into comedy, and that's what I did in 1989 and I've been doing it ever since. And my career has gone in multiple directions, as I think it needs to. If you're going to be in show business and sustain a career in show business, you have to wear a lot of different hats, which I feel like I've done.   Michael Hingson ** 06:40 So tell me more about that. What does that mean exactly?   Greg Schwem ** 06:43 Well, I mean, I started out as a what you would pretty much if somebody said, If you heard somebody say, I'm a comedian, they would envision some guy that just went to comedy clubs all the time, and that's what I did. I was just a guy that traveled by car all over the Midwest and the Southeast primarily, and did comedy clubs, but I quickly realized that was kind of a going nowhere way to attack it, to do comedy unless you were incredibly lucky, because there were so many guys doing it and so many clubs, and I just didn't see a future in it, and I felt like I had to separate myself from the pack a little bit. And I was living in Chicago, which is where I'm from, and still, still exist. Still reside in Chicago, and I started to get involved with a company that did live trade show presentations. So if you've ever been on a trade show floor and you see people, they're mostly actors and actresses that wear a headset and deliver a spiel, a pitch, like every, every twice an hour, about some company, some new product, and so forth. And I did that, and I started to write material about what I was seeing on trade show floors and putting it into my stand up act, stuff about business, stuff about technology, because I was Hawking a lot of new computers and things like that. This was the mid 90s when technology was exploding, and I started to put this into my stand up act. And then I'd have people come up to me afterwards and say, hey, you know those jokes you did about computers and tech support, if you could come down to our office, you know, we're having a golf tournament, we're having a Christmas party, we would love to hear that material. And little by little, I started transitioning my act into doing shows for the corporate market. I hooked up with a corporate agent, or the corporate agent heard about me, and started to open a lot of doors for me in terms of working for very large corporations, and that's pretty much what I've been doing. I stopped working clubs, and I transitioned, instead of being a comedian, I became a corporate humor speaker. And that's what I do, primarily to this day, is to speak at business conferences. Just kind of get people to loosen up, get them to laugh about what they do all day without without making it sound like I'm belittling what they do. And also when I'm not doing that, I work about eight to 10 weeks a year on cruise ships, performing for cruise audiences. So that's a nice getaway.   Speaker 1 ** 09:18 It's interesting since I mentioned Don Rickles earlier, years ago, I saw an interview that he did with Donahue, and one of the things that Don Rickles said, and after he said it, I thought about it. He said, I really don't want to pick on anyone who's going to be offended by me picking on them. He said, I try to watch really carefully, so that if it looks like somebody's getting offended, I'll leave them alone, because that's not what this is all about. It isn't about abusing people. It's about trying to get people to have fun, and if somebody's offended, I don't want to to pick on them, and I've heard a number of albums and other things with him and just. Noticed that that was really true. He wouldn't pick on someone unless they could take it and had a lot of fun with it. And I thought that was absolutely interesting, because that certainly wasn't, of course, the rep that he had and no, but it was   Greg Schwem ** 10:16 true. It is, and it doesn't take long to see as a as a comedian, when you're looking at an audience member and you're talking to them, it, you can tell very quickly, Are they enjoying this? Are they enjoying being the center of attention? A lot of people are, or are they uncomfortable with it? Now, I don't know that going in. I mean, I you know, of course. And again, that's a very small portion of my show is to talk to the audience, but it is something particularly today. I think audiences want to be more involved. I think they enjoy you talk you. Some of these, the new comedians in their 20s and 30s and so forth. Them, some of them are doing nothing, but what they call crowd work. So they're just doing 45 minutes of talking to the audience, which can be good and can be rough too, because you're working without a net. But I'm happy to give an audience a little bit of that. But I also have a lot of stuff that I want to say too. I mean, I work very hard coming up with material and and refining it, and I want to talk about what's going on in my life, too. So I don't want the audience to be the entire show, right?   Speaker 1 ** 11:26 And and they shouldn't be, because it isn't about that. But at the same time, it is nice to involve them. I find that as a keynote and public speaker, I find that true as well, though, is that audiences do like to be involved. And I do some things right at the outset of most talks to involve people, and also in involving them. I want to get them to last so that I start to draw them in, because later, when I tell the September 11 story, which isn't really a humorous thing. Directly,   Greg Schwem ** 12:04 i know i Good luck. I'm spinning 911 to make it I don't think I've ever heard anybody say, by the way, I was trapped in a building. Stick with me. It's kind of cute. It's got a funny ending. And   Speaker 1 ** 12:20 that's right, and it is hard I can, I can say humorous things along the way in telling the story, but, sure, right, but, but clearly it's not a story that, in of itself, is humorous. But what I realized over the years, and it's really dawned on me in the last four or five years is we now have a whole generation of people who have absolutely no memory of September 11 because they were children or they weren't even born yet. And I believe that my job is to not only talk about it, but literally to draw them into the building and have them walk down the stairs with me, and I have to be descriptive in a very positive way, so that they really are part of what's going on. And the reality is that I do hear people or people come up and say, we were with you when you were going down the stairs. And I think that's my job, because the reality is that we've got to get people to understand there are lessons to be learned from September 11, right? And the only real way to do that is to attract the audience and bring them in. And I think probably mostly, I'm in a better position to do that than most people, because I'm kind of a curious soul, being blind and all that, but it allows me to to draw them in and and it's fun to do that, actually. And I, and   Greg Schwem ** 13:52 I gotta believe, I mean, obviously I wasn't there, Michael, but I gotta believe there were moments of humor in people, a bunch of people going down the stairs. Sure, me, you put people get it's like, it's like when a bunch of people are in an elevator together, you know, I mean, there's I, when I look around and I try to find something humorous in a crowded and it's probably the same thing now, obviously it, you know, you got out in time. But I and, you know, don't that's the hotel phone, which I just hung up so but I think that I can totally see where you're going from, where, if you're if you're talking to people who have no recollection of this, have no memory where you're basically educating them on the whole event. I think you then you have the opportunity to tell the story in whatever way you see fit. And I think that however you choose to do it is there's no wrong way to do it, I guess is what I'm trying to get at.   Speaker 1 ** 14:55 Well, yeah, I think the wrong way is to be two. Graphic and morbid and morbid, but one of the things that I talk about, for example, is that a colleague of mine who was with me, David Frank, at about the 50th floor, suddenly said, Mike, we're going to die. We're not going to make it out of here. And as as I tell the audience, typically, I as as you heard my introduction at the beginning, I have a secondary teaching credential. And one of the things that you probably don't know about teachers is that there's a secret course that every teacher takes called Voice 101, how to yell at students and and so what I tell people is that when David said that, I just said in my best teacher voice, stop it, David, if Roselle and I can go down these stairs, so can you. And he told me later that that brought him out of his funk, and he ended up walking a floor below me and shouting up to me everything he saw. And it was just mainly, everything is clear, like I'm on floor 48 he's on 47/47 floor. Everything is good here, and what I have done for the past several years in telling that part of the story is to say David, in reality, probably did more to keep people calm and focused as we went down the stairs than anyone else, because anyone within the sound of his voice heard someone who was focused and sounded okay. You know, hey, I'm on the 44th floor. This is where the Port Authority cafeteria is not stopping. And it it helps people understand that we all had to do what we could to keep everyone from not panicking. And it almost happened a few times that people did, but we worked at it. But the i The idea is that it helps draw people in, and I think that's so important to do for my particular story is to draw them in and have them walk down the stairs with me, which is what I do, absolutely, yeah, yeah. Now I'm curious about something that keeps coming up. I hear it every so often, public speaker, Speaker experts and people who are supposedly the great gurus of public speaking say you shouldn't really start out with a joke. And I've heard that so often, and I'm going give me a break. Well, I think, I think it depends, yeah, I think   Greg Schwem ** 17:33 there's two schools of thought to that. I think if you're going to start out with a joke, it better be a really good one, or something that you either has been battle tested, because if it doesn't work now, you, you know, if you're hoping for a big laugh, now you're saying, Well, you're a comedian, what do you do? You know, I mean, I, I even, I just sort of work my way into it a little bit. Yeah, and I'm a comedian, so, and, you know, it's funny, Michael, I will get, I will get. I've had CEOs before say to me, Hey, you know, I've got to give this presentation next week. Give me a joke I can tell to everybody. And I always decline. I always it's like, I don't need that kind of pressure. And it's like, I can, I can, I can tell you a funny joke, but,   Michael Hingson ** 18:22 but you telling the   Greg Schwem ** 18:23 work? Yeah, deliver it. You know, I can't deliver it for you. Yeah? And I think that's what I also, you know, on that note, I've never been a big fan of Stand Up Comedy classes, and you see them all popping up all over the place. Now, a lot of comedy clubs will have them, and usually the you take the class, and the carrot at the end is you get to do five minutes at a comedy club right now, if that is your goal, if you're somebody who always like, Gosh, I wonder what it would like be like to stand up on stage and and be a comedian for five minutes. That's something I really like to try. By all means, take the class, all right. But if you think that you're going to take this class and you're going to emerge a much funnier person, like all of a sudden you you weren't funny, but now you are, don't take the class, yeah? And I think, sadly, I think that a lot of people sign up for these classes thinking the latter, thinking that they will all of a sudden become, you know, a comedian. And it doesn't work that way. I'm sorry you cannot teach unfunny people to be funny. Yeah, some of us have the gift of it, and some of us don't. Some of us are really good with our hands, and just know how to build stuff and how to look at things and say, I can do that. And some of us, myself included, definitely do not. You know, I think you can teach people to be more comfortable, more comfortable in front of an audience and. Correct. I think that is definitely a teachable thing, but I don't think that you can teach people to be funnier   Speaker 1 ** 20:10 and funnier, and I agree with that. I tend to be amazed when I keep hearing that one of the top fears in our world is getting up in front of an audience and talking with them, because people really don't understand that audiences, whatever you're doing, want you to succeed, and they're not against you, but we have just conditioned ourselves collectively that speaking is something to be afraid of?   Greg Schwem ** 20:41 Yes, I think, though it's, I'm sure, that fear, though, of getting up in front of people has only probably been exacerbated and been made more intense because now everybody in the audience has a cell phone and to and to be looking out at people and to see them on their phones. Yeah, you're and yet, you prepped all day long. You've been nervous. You've been you probably didn't sleep the night before. If you're one of these people who are afraid of speaking in public, yeah, and then to see people on their phones. You know, it used to bother me. It doesn't anymore, because it's just the society we live in. I just, I wish, I wish people could put their phones down and just enjoy laughing for 45 minutes. But unfortunately, our society can't do that anymore, so I just hope that I can get most of them to stop looking at it.   Speaker 1 ** 21:32 I don't make any comments about it at the beginning, but I have, on a number of occasions, been delivering a speech, and I hear a cell phone ring, and I'll stop and go, Hello. And I don't know for sure what the person with the cell phone does, but by the same token, you know they really shouldn't be on their phone and and it works out, okay, nobody's ever complained about it. And when I just say hello, or I'll go Hello, you don't say, you know, and things like that, but, but I don't, I don't prolong it. I'll just go back to what I was talking about. But I remember, when I lived in New Jersey, Sandy Duncan was Peter Pan in New York. One night she was flying over the audience, and there was somebody on his cell phone, and she happened to be going near him, and she just kicked the phone out of his hand. And I think that's one of the things that started Broadway in saying, if you have a cell phone, turn it off. And those are the announcements that you hear at the beginning of any Broadway performance today.   Greg Schwem ** 22:39 Unfortunately, people don't abide by that. I know you're still hearing cell phones go off, yeah, you know, in Broadway productions at the opera or wherever, so people just can't and there you go. There that just shows you're fighting a losing battle.   Speaker 1 ** 22:53 Yeah, it's just one of those things, and you got to cope with it.   Greg Schwem ** 22:58 What on that note, though, there was, I will say, if I can interrupt real quick, there was one show I did where nobody had their phone. It was a few years ago. I spoke at the CIA. I spoke for some employees of the CIA. And this might, this might freak people out, because you think, how is it that America's covert intelligence agency, you think they would be on their phones all the time. No, if you work there, you cannot have your phone on you. And so I had an audience of about 300 people who I had their total attention because there was no other way to they had no choice but to listen to me, and it was wonderful. It was just a great show, and I it was just so refreshing. Yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 23:52 and mostly I don't hear cell phones, but they do come up from time to time. And if they do, then you know it happens. Now my one of my favorite stories is I once spoke in Maryland at the Department of Defense, which anybody who knows anything knows that's the National Security Agency, but they call it the Department of Defense, as if we don't know. And my favorite story is that I had, at the time, a micro cassette recorder, and it died that morning before I traveled to Fort Meade, and I forgot to just throw it away, and it was in my briefcase. So I got to the fort, they searched, apparently, didn't find it, but on the way out, someone found it. They had to get a bird Colonel to come to decide what to do with it. I said, throw it away. And they said, No, we can't do that. It's yours. And they they decided it didn't work, and they let me take it and I threw it away. But it was so, so funny to to be at the fort and see everybody running around crazy. See, what do we do with this micro cassette recorder? This guy's been here for an hour. Yeah. So it's it. You know, all sorts of things happen. What do you think about you know, there's a lot of discussion about comedians who use a lot of foul language in their shows, and then there are those who don't, and people seem to like the shock value of that.   Greg Schwem ** 25:25 Yeah, I'm very old school in that. I guess my short answer is, No, I've never, ever been one of those comedians. Ever I do a clean show, I actually learned my lesson very early on. I think I think that I think comedians tend to swear because when they first start out, out of nerves, because I will tell you that profanity does get laughter. And I've always said, if you want to, if you want to experiment on that, have a comedian write a joke, and let's say he's got two shows that night. Let's say he's got an eight o'clock show and a 10 o'clock show. So let's say he does the joke in the eight o'clock and it's, you know, the cadence is bumper, bump up, bump up, bump up, punch line. Okay, now let's and let's see how that plays. Now let's now he does the 10 o'clock show and it's bumper, bump up, bump up F and Okay, yeah, I pretty much guarantee you the 10 o'clock show will get a bigger laugh. Okay? Because he's sort of, it's like the audience is programmed like, oh, okay, we're supposed to laugh at that now. And I think a lot of comedians think, Aha, I have just discovered how to be successful as a comedian. I will just insert the F word in front of every punch line, and you can kind of tell what comedians do that and what comedians I mean. I am fine with foul language, but have some jokes in there too. Don't make them. Don't make the foul word, the joke, the joke, right? And I can say another thing nobody has ever said to me, I cannot hire you because you're too clean. I've never gotten that. And all the years I've been doing this, and I know there's lots of comedians who who do work blue, who have said, you know, who have been turned down for that very reason. So I believe, if you're a comedian, the only way to get better is to work any place that will have you. Yeah, and you can't, so you might as well work clean so you can work any place that will have you, as opposed to being turned away.   Speaker 1 ** 27:30 Well, and I, and I know what, what happened to him and all that, but at the same time, I grew up listening to Bill Cosby and the fact that he was always clean. And, yeah, I understand everything that happened, but you can't deny and you can't forget so many years of humor and all the things that that he brought to the world, and the joy he brought to the world in so many ways.   Greg Schwem ** 27:57 Oh, yeah, no, I agree. I agree. And he Yeah, he worked everywhere. Jay Leno is another one. I mean, Jay Leno is kind of on the same wavelength as me, as far as don't let the profanity become the joke. You know, Eddie Murphy was, you know, was very foul. Richard Pryor, extremely foul. I but they also, prior, especially, had very intelligent material. I mean, you can tell and then if you want to insert your F bombs and so forth, that's fine, but at least show me that you're trying. At least show me that you came in with material in addition to the   Speaker 1 ** 28:36 foul language. The only thing I really have to say about all that is it? Jay Leno should just stay away from cars, but that's another story.   Greg Schwem ** 28:43 Oh, yeah, it's starting to   Greg Schwem ** 28:47 look that way. Yeah, it   Michael Hingson ** 28:49 was. It was fun for a while, Jay, but yeah, there's just two. It's like, Harrison Ford and plains. Yeah, same concept. At some point you're like, this isn't working out. Now I submit that living here in Victorville and just being out on the streets and being driven around and all that, I am firmly convinced, given the way most people drive here, that the bigoted DMV should let me have a license, because I am sure I can drive as well as most of the clowns around here. Yeah, so when they drive, I have no doubt. Oh, gosh. Well, you know, you switched from being a TV journalist and so on to to comedy. Was it a hard choice? Was it really difficult to do, or did it just seem like this is the time and this is the right thing to do. I was   Greg Schwem ** 29:41 both, you know, it was hard, because I really did enjoy my job and I liked, I liked being a TV news reporter. I liked, I liked a job that was different every day once you got in there, because you didn't know what they were going to send you out to do. Yes, you had. To get up and go to work every day and so forth. So there's a little bit of, you know, there's a little bit of the mundane, just like there is in any job, but once you were there, I liked, just never known what the day would bring, right? And and I, I think if I'd stayed with it, I think I think I could have gone pretty far, particularly now, because the now it's more people on TV are becoming more entertainers news people are becoming, yeah, they are. A lot of would be, want to be comedians and so forth. And I don't particularly think that's appropriate, but I agree. But so it was hard to leave, but it gets back to what I said earlier. At some point, you got to say, I was seeing comedians making money, and I was thinking, gosh, you know, if they're making money at this I I'm not hilarious, but I know I'm funnier than that guy. Yeah, I'm funnier than her, so why not? And I was young, and I was single, and I thought, if I if I don't try it now, I never will. And, and I'll bet there's just some hilarious people out there, yeah, who who didn't ever, who just were afraid   Michael Hingson ** 31:14 to take that chance, and they wouldn't take the leap, yeah,   Greg Schwem ** 31:16 right. And now they're probably kicking themselves, and I'm sure maybe they're very successful at what they do, but they're always going to say, what if, if I only done this? I don't ever, I don't, ever, I never, ever wanted to say that. Yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 31:31 well, and there's, there's something to be said for being brave and stepping out and doing something that you don't expect, or that you didn't expect, or that you weren't sure how it was going to go, but if you don't try, then you're never going to know just how, how much you could really accomplish and how much you can really do. And I think that the creative people, whatever they're being creative about, are the people who do step out and are willing to take a chance.   Greg Schwem ** 31:59 Yeah, yeah. And I told my kids that too. You know, it's just like, if it's something that you're passionate about, do it. Just try it. If it doesn't work out, then at least you can say I tried   Speaker 1 ** 32:09 it and and if it doesn't work out, then you can decide, what do I need to do to figure out why it didn't work out, or is it just not me? I want   Greg Schwem ** 32:18 to keep going? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   Speaker 1 ** 32:21 So what is the difference between being a nightclub comedian and a corporate comedian? Because they are somewhat different. I think I know the answer. But what would you say that the differences between them? I think   Greg Schwem ** 32:33 the biggest thing is the audiences. I think when you when you are a nightclub comedian, you are working in front of people who are there to be entertained. Yeah, they, they paid money for that. That's what they're expecting. They, they, at some point during the day, they said, Hey, let's, let's go laugh tonight. That's what we really want to do when you're working in front of a corporate audiences. That's not necessarily the case. They are there. I primarily do business conferences and, you know, association meetings and so forth. And I'm just one cog in the wheel of a whole day's worth of meetings are, for the most part, very dry and boring, maybe certainly necessary educational. They're learning how to do their job better or something. And then you have a guy like me come in, and people aren't always ready to laugh, yeah, despite the fact that they probably need to, but they just they're not always in that mindset. And also the time of day. I mean, I do a lot of shows at nine in the morning. I do shows after lunch, right before lunch. I actually do very few shows in the evening, believe it or not. And so then you you have to, you kind of have to, in the while you're doing your act or your presentation or your speech, as I call it, you kind of have to let them know that it is okay. What you're doing is okay, and they should be okay with laughing. They shouldn't be looking around the whole time wondering if other people are laughing. You know, can I, can I? Can I tell you a quick story about how I drive that point home. Why not? Yeah, it's, I'll condense it into like five minutes. I mentioned that I worked on that I work on cruise ships occasionally, and I one night I was performing, and it was the first night of the cruise. And if anybody's ever been on a cruise, note, the first night, first night entertainers don't like the first night because people are tired. You know, they're they're a little edgy because they've been traveling all day. They're they're confused because they're not really sure where they're going on a ship. And the ones that have got it figured out usually over serve themselves because they're on vacation. So you put all that, so I'm doing my show on the first. Night, and it's going very well. And about five, six minutes in, I do a joke. Everybody laughs. Everybody shuts up. And from the back of the room in total darkness, I hear hat just like that. And I'm like, All right, you know, probably over served. So the rule of comedy is that everybody gets like. I was like, I'll let it go once, yeah. So I just kind of looked off in that direction, didn't say anything. Kept going with my active going with my act. About 10 minutes later, same thing happens. I tell a joke. Everybody laughs. Everybody shuts up. Hat now I'm like, Okay, I have got to, I've got to address the elephant in the room. So I think I just made some comment, like, you know, I didn't know Roseanne Barr was on this cruise, you know, because that was like the sound of the Yeah. Okay, everybody laugh. Nothing happened about five minutes later. It happens a third time. And now I'm just like, this is gonna stop. I'm going to put a stop to this. And I just fired off. I can't remember, like, three just like, hey man, you know you're you're just a little behind everybody else in this show and probably in life too, that, you know, things like that, and it never happened again. So I'm like, okay, mission accomplished on my part. Comedians love it when we can shut up somebody like that. Anyway. Show's over, I am out doing a meet and greet. Some guy comes up to me and he goes, hey, hey, you know that kid you were making fun of is mentally handicapped. And now, of course, I don't know this, but out of the corner of my eye, I see from the other exit a man pushing a son, his son in a wheelchair out of the showroom. And I'm just like, Oh, what have I done? And yeah. And of course, when you're on a cruise, you're you're on a cruise. When you're a cruise ship entertainer, you have to live with your audience. So I couldn't hide. I spent like the next three days, and it seemed like wherever I was, the man and his son in the wheelchair were nearby. And finally, on the fourth day, I think was, I was waiting for an elevator. Again, 3500 people on this ship, okay, I'm waiting for an elevator. The elevator door opens. Guess who are the only two people the elevator, the man and his son. And I can't really say I'll wait for the next one. So I get on, and I said to this the father, I said, I just want you to know I had no idea. You know, I'm so sorry. I can't see back there, this kind of thing. And the dad looks at me. He puts his hand up to stop me, and he points to me, and he goes, I thought you were hysterical. And it was, not only was it relief, but it kind of, it's sort of a lesson that if you think something is funny, you should laugh at it. Yeah. And I think sometimes in corporate America, my point in this. I think sometimes when you do these corporate shows, I think that audience members forget that. I think very busy looking around to see if their immediate boss thinks it's funny, and eventually everybody's looking at the CEO to see if they're like, you know, I think if you're doing it that way, if that's the way you're you're approaching humor. You're doing yourself a disservice, if right, stopping yourself from laughing at something that you think is funny.   Speaker 1 ** 38:09 I do think that that all too often the problem with meetings is that we as a as a country, we in corporations, don't do meetings, right anyway, for example, early on, I heard someone at a convention of the National Federation of the Blind say he was the new executive director of the American Foundation for the Blind, and he said, I have instituted a policy, no Braille, no meetings. And what that was all about was to say, if you're going to have a meeting, you need to make sure that all the documentation is accessible to those who aren't going to read the print. I take it further and say you shouldn't be giving out documentation during the meeting. And you can use the excuse, well, I got to get the latest numbers and all that. And my point is, you shouldn't be giving out documentation at a meeting, because the meeting is for people to communicate and interact with each other. And if you're giving out papers and so on, what are people going to do? They're going to read that, and they're not going to listen to the speakers. They're not going to listen to the other people. And we do so many things like that, we've gotten into a habit of doing things that become so predictable, but also make meetings very boring, because who wants to look at the papers where you can be listening to people who have a lot more constructive and interesting things to say anyway?   Greg Schwem ** 39:36 Yeah, yeah. I think, I think COVID definitely changed, some for the some for the better and some for the worse. I think that a lot of things that were done at meetings COVID and made us realize a lot of that stuff could be done virtually, that you didn't have to just have everybody sit and listen to people over and over and over again.   Speaker 1 ** 39:58 But unless you're Donald Trump. Up. Yeah, that's another story.   Greg Schwem ** 40:02 Yes, exactly another podcast episode. But, yeah, I do think also that. I think COVID changed audiences. I think, you know, we talked a little bit earlier about crowd work, right, and audiences wanting to be more involved. I think COVID precipitated that, because, if you think about it, Michael, for two and a half years during COVID, our sole source of entertainment was our phone, right? Which meant that we were in charge of the entertainment experience. You don't like something, swipe left, scroll down, scroll, scroll, scroll, find something else. You know, that kind of thing. I'm not I'm not entertained in the next four or five seconds. So I'm going to do this. And I think when live entertainment returned, audiences kind of had to be retrained a little bit, where they had to learn to sit and listen and wait for the entertainment to come to them. And granted, it might not happen immediately. It might not happen in the first five seconds, but you have to just give give people like me a chance. It will come to you. It will happen, but it might not be on your timetable,   Speaker 1 ** 41:13 right? Well, and I think that is all too true for me. I didn't find didn't find COVID to be a great inconvenience, because I don't look at the screen anyway, right? So in a sense, for me, COVID wasn't that much of a change, other than not being in an office or not being physically at a meeting, and so I was listening to the meeting on the computer, and that has its nuances. Like you don't necessarily get the same information about how everyone around you is reacting, but, but it didn't bother me, I think, nearly as much as it did everyone else who has to look at everyone. Of course, I have no problems picking on all those people as well, because what I point out is that that disabilities has to be redefined, because every one of you guys has your own disability. You're light dependent, and you don't do well when there's dark, when, when the dark shows up and and we now have an environment where Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb, and we've spent the last 147 years doing everything we can to make sure that light is pretty ubiquitous, but it doesn't change a thing when suddenly the power goes out and you don't have immediate access to light. So that's as much a disability as us light, independent people who don't   Greg Schwem ** 42:36 care about that, right? Right? I hear, I agree, but it is but   Speaker 1 ** 42:41 it is interesting and and it is also important that we all understand each other and are willing to tolerate the fact that there are differences in people, and we need to recognize that with whatever we're doing.   42:53 Yeah, I agree.   Speaker 1 ** 42:57 What do you think about so today, we have obviously a really fractured environment and fractured country, and everyone's got their own opinions, and nobody wants to talk about anything, especially politics wise. How do you think that's all affecting comedy and what you get to do and what other people are doing?   Greg Schwem ** 43:18 Well, I think Pete, I think there's, there's multiple answers to that question too. I think, I think it makes people nervous, wondering what the minute a comedian on stage brings up politics, the minute he starts talking about a politician, whether it's our president, whether it's somebody else, you can sense a tension in the room a little bit, and it's, it's, I mean, it's funny. I, one of my best friends in comedy, got to open for another comedian at Carnegie Hall a couple of years ago, and I went to see him, and I'm sitting way up in the top, and he is just crushing it. And then at one point he he brought up, he decided to do an impression of Mitch McConnell, which he does very well. However, the minute he said, Mitch McConnell, I you could just sense this is Carnegie freaking Hall, and after the show, you know, he and I always like to dissect each other's shows. That's what comedians do. And I just said to him, I go. Why did you decide to insert Mitch McConnell in there? And I, and I didn't say it like, you moron, that was stupid, yeah, but I was genuinely curious. And he just goes, well, I just really like doing that bit, and I like doing that voice and so forth, but, and it's not like the show crashed and burned afterwards. No, he did the joke, and then he got out of it, and he went on to other stuff, and it was fine, but I think that people are just so on their guard now, yeah, and, and that's why, you know, you know Jay Leno always said he was an equal opportunity offender. I think you will do better with politics if you really want. Insert politics into your act. I think he would be better making fun of both sides. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. And I think too often comedians now use the the stage as kind of a Bully, bully pulpit, like I have microphone and you don't. I am now going to give you my take on Donald Trump or the Democrats or whatever, and I've always said, talk about anything you want on stage, but just remember, you're at a comedy club. People came to laugh. So is there a joke in here? Yeah, or are you just ranting because you gotta be careful. You have to get this off your chest, and your way is right. It's, it's, you know, I hate to say it, but that's, that's why podcast, no offense, Michael, yours, is not like this. But I think one of the reasons podcasters have gotten so popular is a lot of people, just a lot of podcast hosts see a podcast is a chance to just rant about whatever's on their mind. And it's amazing to me how many podcast hosts that are hosted by comedians have a second guy have a sidekick to basically laugh and agree with whatever that person says. I think Joe Rogan is a classic example, and he's one of the most popular ones. But, and I don't quite understand that, because you know, if you're a comedian, you you made the choice to work solo, right? So why do you need somebody else with you?   Speaker 1 ** 46:33 I'm I'm fairly close to Leno. My remark is a little bit different. I'm not so much an equal opportunity offender as I am an equal opportunity abuser. I'll pick on both sides if politics comes into it at all, and it's and it's fun, and I remember when George W Bush was leaving the White House, Letterman said, Now we're not going to have anybody to joke about anymore. And everyone loved it. But still, I recognize that in the world today, people don't want to hear anything else. Don't confuse me with the facts or any of that, and it's so unfortunate, but it is the way it is, and so it's wiser to stay away from a lot of that, unless you can really break through the barrier,   Greg Schwem ** 47:21 I think so. And I also think that people, one thing you have to remember, I think, is when people come to a comedy show, they are coming to be entertained. Yeah, they are coming to kind of escape from the gloom and doom that unfortunately permeates our world right now. You know? I mean, I've always said that if you, if you walked up to a comedy club on a Saturday night, and let's say there were 50 people waiting outside, waiting to get in, and you asked all 50 of them, what do you hope happens tonight? Or or, Why are you here? All right, I think from all 50 you would get I would just like to laugh, yeah, I don't think one of them is going to say, you know, I really hope that my opinions on what's happening in the Middle East get challenged right now, but he's a comedian. No one is going to say that. No, no. It's like, I hope I get into it with the comedian on stage, because he thinks this way about a woman's right to choose, and I think the other way. And I really, really hope that he and I will get into an argument about to the middle of the   Speaker 1 ** 48:37 show. Yeah, yeah. That's not why people come?   Greg Schwem ** 48:40 No, it's not. And I, unfortunately, I think again, I think that there's a lot of comedians that don't understand that. Yeah, again, talk about whatever you want on stage, but just remember that your your surroundings, you if you build yourself as a comedian,   48:56 make it funny. Yeah, be funny.   Speaker 1 ** 49:00 Well, and nowadays, especially for for you, for me and so on, we're we're growing older and and I think you point out audiences are getting younger. How do you deal with that?   Greg Schwem ** 49:12 Well, what I try to do is I a couple of things. I try to talk as much as I can about topics that are relevant to a younger generation. Ai being one, I, one of the things I do in my my show is I say, oh, you know, I I really wasn't sure how to start off. And when you're confused these days, you you turn to answer your questions. You turn to chat GPT, and I've actually written, you know, said to chat GPT, you know, I'm doing a show tonight for a group of construction workers who work in the Midwest. It's a $350 million company, and it says, try to be very specific. Give me a funny opening line. And of course, chat GPT always comes up with some. Something kind of stupid, which I then relate to the audience, and they love that, you know, they love that concept. So I think there's, obviously, there's a lot of material that you can do on generational differences, but I, I will say I am very, very aware that my audience is, for the most part, younger than me now, unless I want to spend the rest of my career doing you know, over 55 communities, not that they're not great laughers, but I also think there's a real challenge in being older than your audience and still being able to make them laugh. But I think you have to remember, like you said, there's there's people now that don't remember 911 that have no concept of it, yeah, so don't be doing references from, say, the 1980s or the early 1990s and then come off stage and go, Man, nobody that didn't hit at all. No one, no one. They're stupid. They don't get it. Well, no, they, they, it sounds they don't get it. It's just that they weren't around. They weren't around, right? So that's on you.   Speaker 1 ** 51:01 One of the things that you know people ask me is if I will do virtual events, and I'll do virtual events, but I also tell people, the reason I prefer to do in person events is that I can sense what the audience is doing, how they're reacting and what they feel. If I'm in a room speaking to people, and I don't have that same sense if I'm doing something virtually, agreed same way. Now for me, at the same time, I've been doing this now for 23 years, so I have a pretty good idea in general, how to interact with an audience, to draw them in, even in a virtual environment, but I still tend to be a little bit more careful about it, and it's just kind of the way it is, you know, and you and you learn to deal with it well for you, have you ever had writer's block, and how did you deal with it?   Greg Schwem ** 51:57 Yes, I have had writer's block. I don't I can't think of a single comedian who's never had writer's block, and if they say they haven't, I think they're lying when I have writer's block, the best way for me to deal with this and just so you know, I'm not the kind of comedian that can go that can sit down and write jokes. I can write stories. I've written three books, but I can't sit down and just be funny for an hour all by myself. I need interaction. I need communication. And I think when I have writer's block, I tend to go out and try and meet strangers and can engage them in conversation and find out what's going on with them. I mean, you mentioned about dealing with the younger audience. I am a big believer right now in talking to people who are half my age. I like doing that in social settings, because I just, I'm curious. I'm curious as to how they think. I'm curious as to, you know, how they spend money, how they save money, how what their hopes and dreams are for the future, what that kind of thing, and that's the kind of stuff that then I'll take back and try and write material about. And I think that, I think it's fun for me, and it's really fun to meet somebody who I'll give you a great example just last night. Last night, I was I there's a there's a bar that I have that's about 10 a stone's throw from my condo, and I love to stop in there and and every now and then, sometimes I'll sit there and I won't meet anybody, and sometimes different. So there was a guy, I'd say he's probably in his early 30s, sitting too over, and he was reading, which I find intriguing, that people come to a bar and read, yeah, people do it, I mean. And I just said to him, I go, and he was getting ready to pay his bill, and I just said, if you don't mind me asking, What are you reading? And he's like, Oh, it's by Ezra Klein. And I go, you know, I've listened to Ezra Klein before. And he goes, Yeah, you know? He says, I'm a big fan. And debt to debt to dad. Next thing, you know, we're just, we're just riffing back and forth. And I ended up staying. He put it this way, Michael, it took him a very long time to pay his bill because we had a conversation, and it was just such a pleasure to to people like that, and I think that, and it's a hard thing. It's a hard thing for me to do, because I think people are on their guard, a little bit like, why is this guy who's twice my age talking to me at a bar? That's that seems a little weird. And I would get that. I can see that. But as I mentioned in my latest book, I don't mean because I don't a whole chapter to this, and I I say in the book, I don't mean you any harm. I'm not trying to hit on you, or I'm not creepy old guy at the bar. I am genuinely interested in your story. And. In your life, and and I just, I want to be the least interesting guy in the room, and that's kind of how I go about my writing, too. Is just you, you drive the story. And even though I'm the comedian, I'll just fill in the gaps and make them funny.   Speaker 1 ** 55:15 Well, I know that I have often been invited to speak at places, and I wondered, What am I going to say to this particular audience? How am I going to deal with them? They're they're different than what I'm used to. What I found, I guess you could call that writer's block, but what I found is, if I can go early and interact with them, even if I'm the very first speaker, if I can interact with them beforehand, or if there are other people speaking before me, invariably, I will hear things that will allow me to be able to move on and give a relevant presentation specifically to that group, which is what it's really all about. And so I'm with you, and I appreciate it, and it's good to get to the point where you don't worry about the block, but rather you look at ways to move forward and interact with people and make it fun, right,   Greg Schwem ** 56:13 right? And I do think people, I think COVID, took that away from us a little bit, yeah, obviously, but I but, and I do think people missed that. I think that people, once you get them talking, are more inclined to not think that you're you have ulterior motives. I think people do enjoy putting their phones down a little bit, but it's, it's kind of a two way street when I, when I do meet people, if it's if it's only me asking the questions, eventually I'm going to get tired of that. Yeah, I think there's a, there has to be a reciprocity thing a little bit. And one thing I find is, is with the Gen Z's and maybe millennials. They're not, they're not as good at that as I think they could be. They're more they're they're happy to talk about themselves, but they're not really good at saying so what do you do for a living? Or what you know, tell me about you. And I mean, that's how you learn about other people. Yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 57:19 tell me about your your latest book, Turning gut punches into punchlines. That's a interesting title, yeah, well, the more   Greg Schwem ** 57:26 interesting is the subtitle. So it's turning gut punches into punch punch lines, A Comedian's journey through cancer, divorce and other hilarious stuff.   Speaker 1 ** 57:35 No, like you haven't done anything in the world. Okay, right? So   Greg Schwem ** 57:38 other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln. Yeah, exactly. See, now you get that reference. I don't know if I could use that on stage, but anyway, depend on your audience. But yeah, they're like, What's he talking   Speaker 1 ** 57:50 who's Lincoln? And I've been to Ford theater too, so that's okay, yes, as have I. So it was much later than, than, well, than Lincoln, but that's okay.   Greg Schwem ** 57:58 You're not that old, right? No. Well, okay, so as the title, as the title implies, I did have sort of a double, double gut punch, it just in the last two years. So I, I got divorced late in life, after 29 years of marriage. And while that was going on, I got a colon cancer diagnosis and and at this end, I was dealing with all this while also continuing work as a humor speaker, okay, as a comedian. And I just decided I got it. First of all, I got a very clean bill of health. I'm cancer free. I am finally divorced so and I, I started to think, I wonder if there's some humor in this. I I would, I would, you know, Michael, I've been on stage for like, 25 years telling people that, you know, you can find something funny to laugh at. You can find humor in any situation. It's kind of like what you're talking about all the people going down the stairs in the building in the world trade center. All right, if you look around enough, you know, maybe there's something funny, and I've been preaching that, but I never really had to live that until now. And I thought, you know, maybe there's something here. Maybe I can this is my chance now to embrace new experiences. It was kind of when I got divorced, when you've been married half your life and all of a sudden you get divorced, everything's new to you, yeah, you're, you're, you're living alone, you you're doing things that your spouse did, oh, so many years. And you're having to do those, and you're having to make new friends, yeah, and all of that, I think, is very humorous. So the more I saw a book in there that I started writing before the cancer diagnosis, and I thought was there enough here? Just like, okay, a guy at 60 years old gets divorced now what's going to happen to him? The diagnosis? Kind. Made it just added another wrinkle to the book, because now I have to deal with this, and I have to find another subject to to make light of a little bit. So the book is not a memoir, you know, I don't start it off. And, you know, when I was seven, you know, I played, you know, I was, I went to this school night. It's not that. It's more just about reinvention and just seeing that you can be happy later in life, even though you have to kind of rewrite your your story a little   Speaker 1 ** 1:00:33 bit. And I would assume, and I would assume, you bring some of that into your ACT every so   Greg Schwem ** 1:00:38 very much. So yeah, I created a whole new speech called Turning gut punches into punchlines. And I some of the stuff that I, that I did, but, you know, there's a chapter in the book about, I about gig work, actually three chapters I, you know, I went to work for Amazon during the Christmas holiday rush, just scanning packages. I wanted to see what that was like. I drove for Uber I which I did for a while. And to tell you the truth, I miss it. I ended up selling my car, but I miss it because of the what we just talked about. It was a great way to communicate with people. It was a great way to talk to people, find out about them, be the least interesting person in the car, anyway. And there's a chapter about dating and online dating, which I had not had to do in 30 years. There's a lot of humor in that. I went to therapy. I'd never gone to therapy before. I wrote a chapter about that. So I think people really respond to this book, because they I think they see a lot of themselves in it. You know, lots of people have been divorced. There's lots of cancer survivors out there, and there's lots of people who just suddenly have hit a speed bump in their life, and they're not really sure how to deal with it, right? And my way, this book is just about deal with it through laughter. And I'm the perfect example.   Speaker 1 ** 1:01:56 I hear you, Oh, I I know, and I've been through the same sort of thing as you not a divorce, but my wife and I were married for 40 years, and she passed away in November of 2022 after 40 years of marriage. And as I tell people, as I tell people, I got to be really careful, because she's monitoring me from somewhere, and if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it, so I got to be a good kid, and I don't even chase the women so. But I also point out that none of them have been chasing me either, so I guess I just do what we got to do. But the reality is, I think there are always ways to find some sort of a connection with other people, and then, of course, that's what what you do. It's all about creating a connection, creating a relationship, even if it's only for a couple of hours or an hour or 45 minutes, but, but you do it, which is what it's all about?   Greg Schwem ** 1:02:49 Yeah, exactly. And I think the funniest stuff is real life experience. Oh, absolutely, you know. And if people can see themselves in in what I've written, then I've done my job as a writer.   Speaker 1 ** 1:03:03 So do you have any plans to retire?   Greg Schwem ** 1:03:06 Never. I mean, good for you retire from what   1:03:09 I know right, making fun of people   Greg Schwem ** 1:03:12 and making them laugh. I mean, I don't know what I would do with myself, and even if I there's always going to be I don't care how technology, technologically advanced our society gets. People will always want and need to laugh. Yeah, they're always going to want to do that. And if they're want, if they're wanting to do that, then I will find, I will find a way to get to them. And that's why I, as I said, That's why, like working on cruise ships has become, like a new, sort of a new avenue for me to make people laugh. And so, yeah, I don't I there's, there's no way. I don't know what else I would do with   Speaker 1 ** 1:03:53 myself, well and from my perspective, as long as I can inspire people, yes, I can make people think a little bit and feel better about themselves. I'm going to do it right. And, and, and I do. And I wrote a book during COVID that was published last August called Live like a guide dog. And it's all about helping people learn to control fear. And I use lessons I learned from eight guide dogs and my wife service dog to do that. My wife was in a wheelchair her whole life. Great marriage. She read, I pushed worked out well, but, but the but the but the bottom line is that dogs can teach us so many lessons, and there's so much that we can learn from them. So I'm grateful that I had the opportunity to create this book and and get it out there. And I think that again, as long as I can continue to inspire people, I'm going to do it. Because   Greg Schwem ** 1:04:47 why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't I exactly right? Yeah, yeah. So,   Speaker 1 ** 1:04:51 I mean, I think if I, if I stopped, I think my wife would beat up on me, so I gotta be nice exactly. She's monitoring from somewhere

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Stuart Pollington was born in the United Kingdom and grew up there. After college he began working and along the way he decided he wanted to travel a bit. He worked in Las Vegas for six months and then had the opportunity to work for a year in Australia. He then ended up doing some work in Asia and fell in love with Thailand. For the past 20 years he has lived in Thailand where he helped start several entrepreneurial endeavors and he began two companies which are quite alive and well.   My discussion with Stuart gave us the opportunity to explore his ideas of leadership and entrepreneurial progress including what makes a good entrepreneur. He says, for example, that anyone who wishes to grow and be successful should be willing to ask many questions and always be willing to learn. Stuart's insights are quite valuable and worth your time. I believe you will find most useful Stuart's thoughts and ideas.     About the Guest:   Stuart Pollington is a seasoned entrepreneur and digital strategist who has spent over two decades building businesses across the ASEAN region. Originally from the UK, Stuart relocated to Thailand more than 20 years ago and has since co-founded and led multiple ventures, including Easson Energy and Smart Digital Group. His experience spans digital marketing, AI, and sustainability, but at the heart of it all is his passion for building ideas from the ground up—and helping others do the same.   Throughout his career, Stuart has worn many hats: Sales Director, CTO, Founder, Digital Marketer and growth consultant. He thrives in that messy, unpredictable space where innovation meets real-world execution, often working closely with new businesses to help them launch, grow, and adapt in challenging environments. From Bangkok boardrooms to late-night brainstorms, he's seen firsthand how persistence and curiosity can turn setbacks into springboards.   Stuart's journey hasn't always been smooth—and that's exactly the point. He's a firm believer that failure is an essential part of the learning process. Whether it's a marketing campaign that flopped or a business idea that never got off the ground, each misstep has helped shape his approach and fueled his drive to keep moving forward. Ways to connect with Stuart:   https://www.linkedin.com/in/stuartpollington/ www.smart-digital.co.th www.smart-traffic.com.au www.evodigital.com.au https://easson.energy     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hello, everyone. Once again, it is time for an episode of unstoppable mindset. And today we have a guest, Stuart pullington, who is in Thailand, so that is a little bit of a distance away, but be due to the magic of science and technology, we get to have a real, live, immediate conversation without any delay or anything like that, just because science is a beautiful thing. So Stuart is an entrepreneur. He's been very much involved in helping other people. He's formed companies, but he likes to help other entrepreneurs grow and do the same things that he has been doing. So I am really glad that he consented to be on unstoppable mindset. And Stuart, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. And thank you for being here,   Stuart Pollington ** 02:14 Ryan, thank you for the invitation, Michael, I'm looking forward to it.   Michael Hingson ** 02:18 And Stuart is originally from the United Kingdom, and now for the past, what 20 years you've been in Thailand? Yes, over   Stuart Pollington ** 02:27 a bit over 20 years now. So I think I worked out the other day. I'm 47 in a couple of weeks, and I've spent more than half of my life now over in Asia.   Michael Hingson ** 02:39 So why do you like Thailand so much as opposed to being in England?   Stuart Pollington ** 02:46 It's a good question. I mean, don't get me wrong, I do, I do like the UK. And I really, I really like where I came, where I'm from. I'm from the south coast, southeast, a place called Brighton. So, you know, pretty good, popular place in the UK because of where we're situated, by the, you know, on the on the sea, we get a lot of, you know, foreign tourists and students that come over, etc. I mean, Asia. Why? Why Asia? I mean, I originally went traveling. I did six months in America, actually, first in Las Vegas, which was a good experience, and then I did a bit of traveling in America, from the West Coast over to the East Coast. I did a year in Australia, like a working holiday. And then on my way back to the UK, I had a two week stop over in Thailand, and I went down to the beaches, really enjoyed kind of the culture and the way of life here, if you like. And ended up staying for a year the first time. And then after that year, went back to the UK for a little bit and decided that actually, no, I kind of liked the I liked the lifestyle, I liked the people, I liked the culture in Thailand, and decided that was where I wanted to kind of be, and made my way back   Michael Hingson ** 04:13 there you are. Well, I can tell you, Las Vegas isn't anything like it was 20 years ago. It is. It is totally different. It's evolved. It's very expensive today compared to the way it used to be. You can't, for example, go into a hotel and get an inexpensive buffet or anything like that anymore. Drinks at the hum on the on the casino floors are not like they used to be, or any of that. It's it's definitely a much higher profit, higher cost. Kind of a place to go. I've never been that needy to go to Las Vegas and spend a lot of time. I've been there for some meetings, but I've never really spent a lot of time in Las Vegas. It's a fascinating town. Um. One of my favorite barbecue places in New York, opened up a branch in Las Vegas, a place called Virgil's best barbecue in the country. And when they opened the restaurant, the Virgil's restaurant in Las Vegas, my understanding is that the people who opened it for Virgil's had to first spend six months in New York to make sure that they did it exactly the same way. And I'll tell you, the food tastes the same. It's just as good as New York. So that that would draw me to Las Vegas just to go to Virgil's. That's kind of fun. Well, tell us a little about the early Stuart kind of growing up and all that, and what led you to do the kinds of things you do, and so on. But tell us about the early Stuart, if you would.   Stuart Pollington ** 05:47 Yeah, no problem. I mean, was quite sporty, very sporty. When I was younger, used to play a lot of what we call football, which would be soccer over, over your way. So, you know, very big, younger into, like the the team sports and things like that, did well at school, absolutely in the lessons, not so great when it came to kind of exams and things like that. So I, you know, I learned a lot from school, but I don't think especially back then, and I think potentially the same in other countries. I don't think that the the education system was set up to cater for everyone, and obviously that's difficult. I do feel that. I do feel that maybe now people are a bit more aware of how individual, different individuals perform under different circumstances and need different kind of ways to motivate, etc. So, yeah, I mean, I that that was kind of me at school. Did a lot of sport that, you know was good in the lessons, but maybe not so good at the PAM studying, if you like, you know the studying that you need to do for exams where you really have to kind of cram and remember all that knowledge. And I also found with school that it was interesting in the lessons, but I never really felt that there was any kind of, well, we're learning this, but, and this is how you kind of utilize it, or this is the practical use of what we're learning for life, if that, if that makes sense. Yeah. So, you know, like when we were learning, and I was always very good at maths, and I love numbers, and you know, when we were learning things in maths and things like that, I just never felt that it was explained clearly what you would actually use that for. So when you're learning different equations, it wasn't really well explained how you would then utilize that later in life, which I think, for me personally, I think that would have made things more interesting, and would have helped to kind of understand which areas you should focus on. And, you know, maybe more time could have been spent understanding what an individual is good at, and then kind of explaining, well, if you're good at this, or passionate with this, then this is what you could do with it. I think I remember sitting down with our I can't they would have been our advisors at the time, where you sit down and talk about what you want to do after school, and the question was always, what do you want to be? Whereas, you know, for me personally, I think it would have been more useful to understand, what are your passion you know? What are you passionate about? What are you good at? What do you enjoy doing? And then saying, Well, you know, you could actually do this. This is something you could do, you know. So you could take that and you could become, this could be the sort of career you could do, if that makes sense. So anyway, that that was kind of like, like school and everything like that. And then after school, you know, I didn't, I worked for a couple of years. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Funnily enough, there was actually a Toys R Us opening in Brighton in one of the summers she went and got, I got a summer job there at Toys R Us. And I really enjoyed that. Actually, that was my first step into actually doing a bit of sales. I worked on the computers. So we were, you know, selling the computers to people coming in. And when we opened the store, it's a brand new store. You know, it was just when the pay as you go. Mobile phones were kind of just coming out. We had Vodafone analog, but it was the non contract where you could just buy top up cards when they first came out, and I remember we were the first store, because we were a new store. We were the first store to have those phones for sale. And I remember just being really determined to just try and be the first person to just sell the first ever mobile phone within Toys R Us. And I remember I started in the morning, and I think my lunch was at, say, 12, but I missed my lunch, and I think I was up till about one, one or 2pm until finally I managed to find someone who, who was, who me, had that need or wanted the phone, and so I made that first sale for toys r us in the UK with the mobile phone, and that that, in itself, taught me a lot about, you know, not giving up and kind of pushing through and persevering a bit. So yeah, that that was kind of my, my early part. I was always interested in other cultures, though. I was always interested at school, you know, I do projects on Australia, Egypt and things like that. And, you know, in the UK, when you get to about, I think similar, similar to America, but, you know, in the UK, where you either before or after uni, it's quite usual to do, like, a gap year or do a bit of traveling. And I just kind of never got round to it. And I had friends that went and did a gap year or years working holiday in Australia, and I remember when they came back, and I was like, Yeah, you know, that's that's actually what I want to do. So when I was about 22 it was at that point, and I'd worked my way up by them from Toys R Us, I'd already moved around the country, helped them open new stores in different locations in the UK. Was working in their busiest story of in Europe, which was in London. But I decided I wanted to kind of I wanted to go and travel. So I remember talking to my area manager at the time and saying, Look, this is what I want to do. I had a friend who was traveling, and he was meeting up with his sister, and his sister happened to be in Las Vegas, which is how we, we kind of ended up there. And I remember talking to my area manager at the time and saying that I want to leave, I want to go and do this. And I remember him sat down just trying to kind of kind of talk me out of it, because they obviously saw something in me. They wanted me to continue on the path I was doing with them, which was going, you know, towards the management, the leadership kind of roles. And I remember the conversation because I was saying to him, Look, I want, I want to, I want to go and travel. I really want to go. I'm going to go to Las Vegas or to travel America. And his response to me was, well, you know, if you stay here for another x years, you can get to this position, then you can go and have a holiday in America, and you could, you can get a helicopter, you can fly over the Grand Canyon, and kind of really trying to sell me into staying in that path that they wanted me to go on. And I thought about that, and I just said, No, I don't want to just go on a holiday. I really just want to immerse myself, and I just want to go there, and I want to live the experience. And so yeah, I I left that position, went to Las Vegas, ended up staying six months. I did three months. Did a bit in Mexico, came back for another three months. And that's where I met a lot of different people from different countries. And I really kind of got that initial early bug of wanting to go out and seeing a bit more of the world. And it was at that point in my life where I was in between, kind of the end of education, beginning of my business career, I guess, and I had that gap where it was the opportunity to do it. So I did, so yeah, I did that time in America, then back to the UK, then a year in Australia, which was great. And then, yeah, like I said, on the way home, is where I did my stop over. And then just obviously fell in love with Thailand and Asia, and that became my mindset after that year going back to the UK. My mindset was, how do I get back to Thailand? You know, how do I get back to Asia? I also spent a bit of time, about five years in the Philippines as well. So, you know, I like, I like, I like the region, I like the people, I like the kind of way of life, if you like.   Michael Hingson ** 14:23 So when you were working in the Philippines, and then when you got to Thailand, what did you do?   Stuart Pollington ** 14:30 Yeah, so I mean, it all starts with Thailand, really. So I mean, originally, when I first came over, I was, I was teaching and doing, trying to kind of some teaching and voluntary stuff. When I came back, I did a similar thing, and then I got, I get, I wouldn't say lucky, I guess I had an opportunity to work for a company that was, we were, we were basically selling laptop. Laptops in the UK, student laptops, they were refurbished like your IBM or your Dell, and we they would be refurbished and resold normally, to students. And we also, we also used to sell the the laptop batteries. So we would sell like the IBM or Dell laptop batteries, but we sell the OEM, you know, so we would get them direct from, from from China, so like third party batteries, if you like. And back in the day, this is just over 20 years ago, but back then, early days of what we would call digital marketing and online marketing. And you know, our website in the UK, we used to rank, you know, number one for keywords like IBM, refurb, refurbished. IBM, laptop Dell, laptop battery, IBM battery. So we used to rank above the brands, and that was my introduction, if you like, to digital marketing and how it's possible to make money online. And then that kind of just morphed into, well, you know, if we're able to do this for our own business, why can't we do this for other businesses? And that would have been the, you know, the early owners and founders of the of smart digital and smart traffic seeing that opportunity and transitioning from running one business and doing well to helping multiple businesses do well online and that, that was the bit I really enjoy. You know, talking to different business owners in different industries. A lot of what we do is very similar, but then you have slightly different approaches, depending on them, the location and the type of business that people are in.   Michael Hingson ** 16:47 Well, you, you have certainly been been around. You formed your own or you formed countries along the way, like Eastern energy and smart digital group. What were they? Right?   Stuart Pollington ** 16:59 Yeah. So, so yeah, going back to the computer website. Out of that came a company called smart traffic that was put together by the free original founders, guy called Simon, guy called Ben, and a guy called Andy. And so they originally came together and put and had created, if you like, smart traffic. And smart traffic is a digital marketing agency originally started with SEO, the organic, you know, so when someone's searching for something in Google, we help get websites to the top of that page so that people can then click on them, and hopefully they get a lead or a sale, or whatever they're they're trying to do with that, with that traffic. So, yeah, they originally put that together. I being here and on the ground. I then started working within the business. So I was running the student website, if you like, the laptop website, and then got the opportunity from very early on to work within the Digital Marketing Company. I've got a sales background, but I'm also quite technical, and I would say I'm good with numbers, so a little bit analytical as well. So the opportunity came. We had opened an office in the Philippines, and it had been open for about, I think, 18 months or two years, and it was growing quite big, and they wanted someone else to go over there to support Simon, who was one of the founders who opened the office over there. And that's when I got the opportunity. So I was over in Cebu for what, five, five and a half years. At one point, we had an office there with maybe 120 staff, and we did a lot of the technical SEO, and we were delivering campaigns for the UK. So we had a company in the UK. We had one in Australia, and then also locally, within the kind of Thai market. And that was fantastic. I really enjoyed working over in the Philippines again. Culture enjoyed the culture enjoyed the people. Really enjoyed, you know, just getting stuck in and working on different client campaigns. And then eventually that brought me back to Thailand. There was a restructure of the company we, you know, we moved a lot of the a lot of the deliverables around. So I was then brought back to Thailand, which suited me, because I wanted to come back to Thailand at that point. And then I had the opportunity. So the previous owners, they, they created a couple of other businesses in Thailand. They're one that very big one that went really well, called dot property, so they ended up moving back to the UK. Long story short, about maybe 10 years ago, I got the opportunity to take over smart digital in Thailand and smart traffic in Australia, which are both the. Marketing agencies that I'd been helping to run. So I had the opportunity to take those over and assume ownership of those, which was fantastic. And then I've obviously been successfully running those for the last 10 years, both here and and in Australia, we do a lot of SEO. We do a lot of Google ads and social campaigns and web design, and we do a lot of white label. So we we sit in the background for other agencies around the world. So there'll be agencies in, you know, maybe Australia, the UK, America, some in Thailand as well, who are very strong at maybe social or very strong ads, but maybe not as strong on the SEO so we, we just become their SEO team. We'll run and manage the campaigns for them, and then we'll deliver all the reporting with their branding on so that they can then plug that into what they do for their clients and deliver to their clients. So that's all fantastic. I mean, I love, I love digital marketing. I love, I love looking at the data and, you know, working out how things work. And we've been very successful over the years, which then led on to that opportunity that you mentioned and you asked about with Eastern energy. So that was about three and a half years ago, right right around the COVID time, I had a meeting, if you like, in in Bangkok, with a guy called Robert Eason. He was actually on his way to the UK with his family, and kind of got stuck in Bangkok with all the lockdowns, and he was actually on his way to the UK to start Eastern energy there. And Eastern energy is basically, it's an energy monitoring and energy efficiency company. It's basically a UK design solution where we have a hardware technology that we retrofit, which is connects, like to the MDB, and then we have sensors that we place around the location, and for every piece of equipment that we connect to this solution, we can see in real time, second by second, the energy being used. We can then take that data, and we use machine learning and AI to actually work with our clients to identify where their energy wastage is, and then work with them to try and reduce that energy wastage, and that reduces the amount of energy they're using, which reduces their cost, but also, very importantly, reduces the CO two emissions. And so I had this chance encounter with Robert, and I remember, at the time I was we were talking about how this solution worked, and I was like, oh, that's quite interesting. You know, I've I, you know, the the digital marketing is going quite well. Could be time to maybe look at another kind of opportunity, if you like. So I had a look at how it worked. I looked at the kind of ideal clients and what sort of other projects were being delivered by the group around the world. And there were a couple of big name brands over in there. So because it works quite well with qsrs, like quick service restaurant, so like your fast food chains, where you have multiple locations. And it just so happened that one of the in case studies they'd had, I just through my networking, I do a lot of networking with the chambers in Bangkok. Through my networking, I actually happened to know some of the people in the right positions at some of these companies. I'd never had the opportunity to work with them, with the digital marketing because most of them would have their own in house teams, and I just saw it as an opportunity to maybe do something with this here. So I, you know, I said to Robert, give me a week. And then a week later, I said, right, we've got a meeting with this company. It's international fast food brand. They've got 1700 locations in Thailand. So when ended that meeting, very, very positive. And after that meeting, I think Robert and I just I said to Robert, you know, currently you have a plan to go to the UK. Currently you're stuck in Thailand with lockdown, with COVID. We don't know what's going to happen and where everything's going to go. Why don't we do it here? And that's where it originally came from. We decided, let's, you know, let's, let's give that a shot over here. Since then, we've brought in two other partners. There's now four of us, a guy called Gary and a guy called Patrick. And yeah, I mean, it's a bit slower than I thought it would be, but it's in the last. Six months, it's really kind of picked up, which has been fantastic. And for me, it was, for me, it was just two things that made sense. One, I love I love data, and I love the technology. So I love the fact that we're now helping businesses by giving them data that they don't currently have the access to, you know. So when you get, you know, when you when you get your electricity bill, you get it the month after you've used everything, don't you, and it just tells you how much you've got to pay. And there's not really much choice. So what we're doing is giving them the visibility in real time to see where their energy is going and be able to make changes in real time to reduce that energy wastage. And I just thought, Well, look, this is great. It's very techie. It's using, you know, date big data, which I love, using machine learning and AI, which is great. And then I also, you know, I do care about the environment. I got two young kids, so I do care about what's happening around the world. And for me, that was a win, win. You know, I got to, I got to do something with tech that was new and exciting. It's definitely new to this region, even though it's been new to the same sort of technology has been utilized in Europe and America for a number of years. So it felt new, it felt exciting. And it's also good, you know, because we are helping people on the path to net zero. You know, how can we get to net zero? How can we reduce these emissions? So, yeah, I mean that that, for me, is   Stuart Pollington ** 26:40 two different types of, in my opinion, entrepreneurial kind of journeys. One is that the with the digital marketing is, is all it's a story of working my way up to then reach the top, if you like. And whereas Eastern energy is more of a traditional kind of as an entrepreneur, this is, this is an idea. Let's do something with it and get an exciting about it. So two kind of, two different approaches to get to the ownership stage, if you like.   Michael Hingson ** 27:14 I have an interesting story. I appreciate what you're saying. The whole entrepreneurial spirit is so important in what we do, and I wish more people had it. But years ago, one of my first jobs out of college was working for a company in Massachusetts, Kurzweil Computer Products. Ray Kurzweil, who developed, originally a reading machine for the blind, and then later a more commercial version of it. And there's somebody that I had met when I was a student at UC Irvine who ended up being back in Massachusetts working for at that time, a think tank consulting company called Bolt Beranek and Newman. I don't know whether you're familiar with them. They changed their name to, I think it was CLOUD NINE or Planet Nine. But Dick was telling me one day that, and this is when mainframe computers were so large and there was a lot needed to keep them cool and so on. Anyway, he was telling me that one day the gas utility came in because the total heating bill for the six story building was like $10 and they wanted to know how BBN bolt, brannic and Newman was stealing energy and and making it so that they didn't pay very much money. And the the president of the company said, let me show you. They went down to the basement, and there they had two PDP 20s, which are like dual PDP 10s. And they put out a lot of heat, needless to say, to run them. And what BBN did was to take all of that heat and pipe it through the building to keep the building warm in the winter. Rather than paying all the gas bills, they were using something that they already had, the entrepreneurial spirit liveth well. And the bottom line is they, they kept the building well heated. And I don't know what they did in the summer, but during the winter it was, it was pretty cool, and they were able to have $10 gas bills for the six story building, which was kind of fun. No,   Stuart Pollington ** 29:39 that's brilliant, yeah, and that just goes to show me, that is what a large part of this, you know, energy efficiency and things like that, is, it's, it's, it's not about just completely replacing or stopping something. It's about better utilizing it. Isn't it? So they, you know the example you just gave there, with the heat and the wasted energy of being lost in that heat release they've used and utilized, which is brilliant.   Michael Hingson ** 30:12 I a couple of years ago. So my wife passed away in 2022 and we have a furnace and so on here, and we had gas bills that were up in the $200 a month or more up as much as $300 a month in the winter to keep the house at a temperature that we could stand. And two years ago, I thought about, how do we lower that? And I was never a great fan of space heaters, but I decided to try something. We got a couple of space heaters, and we put them out in the living room, and we have ceiling fans. So turned on the space heaters and turned on the ceiling fans, and it did a pretty decent job of keeping the temperature down, such that for most months, I didn't even have to turn the furnace on at all, and our heating bill went down to like $39 a month. Then last year, we got an additional heater that was a little bit larger, and added that to the mix. And again, the bottom line is that if I start all of that early in the morning, our heating bill is like 30 $35 a month. Now I do cheat occasionally, and I'll turn the furnace on for about 45 minutes or 50 minutes in the morning with the ceiling fans to help distribute the warmer air, and I can get the house up to 75 degrees, or almost 30 Celsius, in in a very quick time. And then with the other two space heaters running, I don't have to use furnaces or anything for the rest of the day. So I think this year, the most expensive heating bill we had was like $80 because I did occasionally run the the the heaters or the furnace, and when I was traveling, I would turn the furnace on for the cat a little bit. But the bottom line is, there's so many things that we can do to be creative, if we think about it, to make things run more efficiently and not use as much energy and eliminate a lot of the waste that that we have, and so that that has worked out pretty well, and I have solar on the house. So in the summer, when most people around here are paying four and $500 a month for their electric bills to run the air conditioning. My electric bill year round, is $168 a month, which is   Stuart Pollington ** 32:47 cool. Yeah, no, that's great that you've and you've that is a great example there of kind of how you know our approach to energy efficiency. You know what? What are you currently doing? Is there a more efficient way of doing it? Which is exactly what you found, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 33:07 yeah, and it works really well. So I can't complain it's warming up now. So in fact, we're not I haven't turned the furnace or anything on at all this week. This is the first week it's really been warm at night. In fact, it was 75 degrees Fahrenheit last night. I actually had to turn the air conditioner on and lower the house to 70 degrees, and then turned it off because I don't need to keep it on, and made it easier to sleep. But it's it's amazing, if we think about it, what the things that we can do to make our energy lives more efficient, lower the carbon footprint, and all those kinds of things. So I hear what you're saying, and it's and it's important, I think that we all think about as many ways as we can of doing that. I   Stuart Pollington ** 33:56 think one of the biggest problems with energy is just invisible. You don't, you know, you don't really see it. No. So just, it's just one of those. You just don't really think about it. And again, you only get, you only get told what you've used once you've used it. Yeah, so it's too late by then. And then you go, Oh, you know, you might get an expensive bill. And go, oh, I need to be careful. And then you're careful for a few days or a week, and then again, you don't see it until you get your next bill. Yeah, it's really hard as with anything. I mean, it's a bit like going to the gym. If you go to the gym or the fitness and you just do it sporadically. You don't really have a routine, or, you know, it's gonna be very hard to achieve anything. But then if you, if you set your mind to it, if you maybe get a trainer, and you get a you go onto a better diet, and you follow your routine, you can you will see the results. And it's very similar to what we do. If you've once you've got the data, and you can actually see what. Happening, you can make proper, informed and educated business decisions, and that's what we're trying to do with that is to help businesses make the right decision on the path to net zero   Michael Hingson ** 35:11 well, and you have to develop the mindset as the consumer to bring in a company like yours, or at least think about yourself. What can I do consistently to have a better energy pattern? And I think that's what most people tend not to do a lot, and the result of that is that they pay more than they need to. The power companies like it, the gas companies like it. But still, there are better ways to do it so. So tell me you have been in business and been an entrepreneur for a long time. What is maybe an example of some major crisis or thing that happened to you that you you regard as a failure or a setback that you have had to deal with and that taught you something crucial about business or life.   Stuart Pollington ** 36:08 Brilliant question. I mean, I would, I would guess, over 20 years, there's been a lot of different, sorry, a lot of different things that have happened. I think probably, probably an impactful one would have been. And this taught me a lot about my team, and, you know, their approach and how everyone can pull together. So it would have been, I think it was about, it was when I was in the Philippines. So it would have been about maybe 1212, years ago, we're in Cebu, and there was a big earthquake, and when it hit Cebu, I think it was quite early in the morning. It was like 6am and I remember the whole bed was kind of shaking and rocking, and we, you know, had to get out of the condo. And we're, at the time, living in a place called it Park. And in the Philippines, there's a lot of cool centers, so it's very much 24/7 with an office environment. So as we're coming out of the condo, in literally pants, as in, when I say pants, I mean underwear, because you literally jump out of bed and run. And they were like 1000s, 1000s of all the local Filipinos all all in their normal clothes, because they've all doing the call center work. And I remember just, you know, sitting out on the ground as the aftershocks and whole grounds moving and and, and that that was a very, you know, personal experience. But then on top of that, I've then got over 100 staff in in Cebu at the time that I then have to think about. And, you know, is everyone okay? And then, because of the time it happened, Luckily no one was in the office because it was early, yeah, but it all but it also meant that everything we needed   Michael Hingson ** 38:08 was in the office. Was in the office. Yeah, yeah. So,   Stuart Pollington ** 38:10 so I remember Matt, you know, I remember getting a group of us there, was myself and maybe three or four others from the office, and I remember getting in my car, drove to the office. We were on, I think it's like the eighth or ninth floor, and they didn't want to let us in because of, obviously, the earthquake, and it was a, it was a couple of hours later, and you've got to be obviously, you know, everything needs checking. You still got all the aftershocks, but we managed to let them allow us to run up the fire exit to the office so we could grab, you know, I think we were grabbing, like, 1520, laptops and screens to put in the car so that we could then, and we had to do that of the fire exit, so running up, running down, and that was all into The car so we could then drive to a location where I could get some of my team together remote and to work in this. I think we ended up in some coffee shop we found that was open, and we had the old free G boost kind of the Wi Fi dongles, dongles. And I just remember having to get, like, 1015, of my team, and we're all sat around there in the coffee shop in the morning. You know, there's still the after shops going on the I remember the office building being a mess, and, you know, the tiles had come in and everything, and it was all a bit crazy, but we had to find a way to keep the business running. So we were in the Philippines, we were the support team. We did all of the delivery of the work, but we also worked with the account managers in the UK and Australia as their technical liaisons, if you like. So we. Helped do the strategy. We did everything. And so with us out of action, the whole of Australia and of the whole of the UK team were kind of in a limbo, so we really had to pull together as a team. It taught me a lot about my staff and my team, but it also kind of it taught me about, no matter what does happen, you know, you can find a way through things, you know. So at the time that it happened, it felt like, you know, that's it, what we're going to do, but we had to turn that around and find the way to keep everything going. And yeah, that, that that just taught me a lot of you know, you can't give up. You've got to find a way to kind of push on through. And yeah, we did a fantastic job. Everyone was safe. Sorry. I probably should have said that. You know, no one, none of my team, were affected directly from the from the earthquake, which was great, and we found a way to keep things going so that the business, if you like, didn't fall apart. We,   Michael Hingson ** 41:09 you know, I guess, in our own way, had a similar thing, of course, with September 11, having our office on the 78th floor of Tower One, the difference is that that my staff was out that day working. They weren't going to be in the office. One person was going to be because he had an appointment at Cantor Fitzgerald up on the 96th floor of Tower One for 10 o'clock in the morning, and came in on one of the trains. But just as it arrived at the station tower two was hit, and everything shook, and the engineer said, don't even leave. We're going back out. And they left. But we lost everything in the office that day, and there was, of course, no way to get that. And I realized the next day, and my wife helped me start to work through it, that we had a whole team that had no office, had nothing to go to, so we did a variety of things to help them deal with it. Most of them had their computers because we had laptops by that time, and I had taken my laptop home the previous night and backed up all of my data onto my computer at home, so I was able to work from home, and other people had their computers with them. The reason I didn't have my laptop after September 11 is that I took it in that day to do some work. But needless to say, when we evacuated, it was heavy enough that going down 1463 stairs, 78 floors, that would have been a challenge with the laptop, so we left it, but it worked out. But I hear what you're saying, and the reality is that you got to keep the team going. And even if you can't necessarily do the work that you normally would do you still have to keep everyone's spirits up, and you have to do what needs to be done to keep everybody motivated and be able to function. So I think I learned the same lessons as you and value, of course, not that it all happened, but what I learned from it, because it's so important to be able to persevere and move forward, which, which is something that we don't see nearly as much as sometimes we really should.   Stuart Pollington ** 43:34 Yeah, no, no, definitely. I mean the other thing, and I think you you just mentioned there actually is it. You know, it was also good to see afterwards how everyone kind of pulls together. And, you know, we had a lot of support, not just in the Philippines, but from the UK and the Australia teams. I mean, we had a, we had a bit of an incident, you know, may have seen on the news two weeks ago, I think now, we had an incident in Bangkok where there was a earthquake in Myanmar, and then the all the buildings are shaking in Bangkok, yeah, 7.9 Yeah, that's it. And just, but just to see everyone come together was, was it's just amazing. You know? It's a shame, sometimes it takes something big to happen for people to come together and support each other.   Michael Hingson ** 44:27 We saw so much of that after September 11. For a while, everyone pulled together, everyone was supporting each other. But then over time, people forgot, and we ended up as a as a country, in some ways, being very fractured. Some political decisions were made that shouldn't have been, and that didn't help, but it was unfortunate that after a while, people started to forget, in fact, I went to work for an organization out in California in 2002 in addition to. To taking on a career of public speaking, and in 2008 the president of the organization said, we're changing and eliminating your job because nobody's interested in September 11 anymore, which was just crazy, but those are the kinds of attitudes that some people have, well, yeah, there was so little interest in September 11 anymore that when my first book, thunderdog was published, it became a number one New York Times bestseller. Yeah, there was no interest. It's   Stuart Pollington ** 45:31 just, I hope you sent him a signed copy and said, There you go.   Michael Hingson ** 45:35 Noah was even more fun than that, because this person had been hired in late 2007 and she did such a great job that after about 18 months, the board told her to go away, because she had so demoralized the organization that some of the departments were investigating forming unions, you know. So I didn't need to do anything. Wow, so, you know, but it, it's crazy, the attitudes that people have. Well, you have it is, it's it's really sad. Well, you have done a couple of things that I think are very interesting. You have moved to other countries, and you've also started businesses in unfamiliar markets. What advice? What advice would you give to someone who you learn about who's doing that today, starting a business in an unfamiliar market, or in a foreign country, or someplace where they've never been?   Stuart Pollington ** 46:34 Yeah, again, good questions. I looking back and then so and seeing what I'm doing now, and looking back to when I first came over, I think chambers, I think if I have one, you know, obviously you need to understand the market you want. You need to understand, like the labor laws, the tax laws and, you know, the business laws and things like that. But I think, I think the best thing you could do in any country is to check out the chambers. You know, I'm heavily involved and active with aus Jam, which is the Australian Chamber of Commerce, because of the connection with smart traffic in Australia, in Sydney, the digital marketing. I'm also involved with bcct, the British chamber as British Chamber of Commerce Thailand as well, that there's a very big AmCham American Chamber over here as well. And I just think that the chambers can help a lot. You know, they're good for the networking. Through the networking, you can meet the different types of people you need to know, connections with visas, with, you know, work permits, how to set up the business, recruiting everything. So everything I need, I can actually find within this ecosphere of the chambers. And the chambers in Thailand and Bangkok, specifically, they're very active, lots of regular networking, which brings, you know, introductions, new leads to the business, new connections. And then on top of that, we've had, we've had a lot of support from the British Embassy over in in Thailand, especially with the Eastern energy, because it is tech based, because it is UK Tech, and because it is obviously something that's good for the environment and what everyone's trying to push towards. So I think the two key areas for me, if you are starting a business in an unfamiliar area, is one. Check out the chambers. So obviously the first one you'd look at is your own nationality. But don't stress too much about that. I mean, the chambers over here will welcome anyone from any nationality. So, you know, utilize the chambers because it's through that that you're going to get to speak to people, expats, already running businesses. You'll hear the horror stories. You'll hear the tips. It will save you some time, it will save you some money, and it will save you from making similar mistakes. And then also talk to your embassy and how they can maybe support you. We've had, again, some great support from the British Embassy. They've witnessed demo use. They've helped us with introductions. On the energy efficiency side,   Michael Hingson ** 49:26 one of the things that clearly happens though, with you is that you also spend time establishing relationships with people, so you talk about the chamber and so on. But it also has to be that you've established and developed trusting relationships, so that you are able to learn the things that you learned, and that people are willing to help teach you. And I suspect that they also realize that you would be willing to help others as well.   Stuart Pollington ** 49:55 Yeah, and I think I mean yes, and I'm talking about. And I mentioned, sorry, networking and the changes. But with networking, you know, you don't, you shouldn't go in there with the mindset of, I'm going into networking. I want to make as many sales as I can. Whatever you go into the networking. Is an opportunity to meet people, to learn from people you then some of those people, or most of those people, may not even be the right fit for you, but it's about making those relationships and then helping each other and making introductions. So you know, a lot of what I do with the chambers, I run a lot of webinars. I do workshops where I do free training on digital marketing, on AI, on SEO, on ads, on social. I use that as my lead gen, if you like. So I spend a lot of time doing this educationally and helping people. And then the offshot of that is that some of those will come and talk to me and ask me to how I can help them, or they will recommend me to someone else. And you know, we all know in business, referrals are some of the best leads you can get.   Michael Hingson ** 51:11 Yeah, by any, by any definition, one of, one of the things that I tell every sales person that I've ever hired is you are a student, at least for your first year, don't hesitate to ask questions, because in reality, in general, people are going to be perfectly willing to help you. They're not going to look down on you if you ask questions and legitimately are looking for guidance and information. Again, it's not about you, it's about what you learn, and it's about how you then are able to use that knowledge to help other people, and the people and the individuals who recognize that do really well.   Stuart Pollington ** 51:50 No, exactly, and I don't know about you, Michael, but I like, I like helping people. Yeah, I like, it makes me feel good. And, yeah, that's, that's a big part of it as well. You know   Michael Hingson ** 52:01 it is and, and that's the way it ought to be. It's, that's the other thing that I tell them. I said, once you have learned a great deal, first of all, don't forget that you're always going to be a student. And second of all, don't hesitate to be a teacher and help other people as well.   Speaker 1 ** 52:16 Man, that's really important. Yeah, brilliant.   Michael Hingson ** 52:20 Now you have worked across a number of sectors and market, marketing, tech, sales, energy and so on. How did how do you do that? You You've clearly not necessarily been an expert in those right at the beginning. So how do you learn and grow and adapt to be able to to work in those various industries.   Stuart Pollington ** 52:41 Yeah, I mean, for the marketing, for the marketing, it helps that I really was interested in it. So there was a good there was a good interest. And if you're interested in something, then you get excited about it, and you have the motivation and the willingness to learn and ask the questions, like you said, and then that is where you can take that kind of passion and interest and turn it into something a bit more constructive. It's a bit like I was saying at the beginning. It's the sort of thing I wish they'd done a bit maybe with me at school, was understand what I was good at and what I liked. But yeah, so with the marketing, I mean, very similar to what you've said, I asked questions. I see it just seems to click in my head on how it worked. And it kind of made sense to me. It was just one of these things that clicked, yeah. And so for the marketing, I just found it personally quite interesting, but interesting, but also found it quite easy. It just made sense to me, you know. And similar, you know, using computers and technology, I think it just makes sense. It doesn't to everyone. And other people have their strengths in other areas, but, you know, for me, it made sense. So, you know that that was the easy part. Same with Eastern energy, it's technology. It makes sense. I love it, but at the end of the day, it's all about it's all about people, really business, and you've got your people and your team, and how you motivate them is going to be similar. It's going to be slightly different depending on culture and where you're based, in the type of industry you're in, but also very similar. You know, people want praise, they want constructive feedback. They want to know where they're gonna be in a year or five years. All of that's very similar. So you people within the business, and then your customers are just people as well, aren't they? Well, customers, partners, clients, you know that they are just people. So it's all, it's all, it's all about people, regardless of what we're doing. And because it's all very similar with tech and that, it just, yeah, I don't know. It just makes sense to me. Michael, I mean, it's different. It's funny, because when I do do network and I talk to people, I say, Well, I've got this digital marketing agency here. Work, and then I've got this energy efficiency business here. And the question is always, wow, they sound really different. How did you how did you get into them? But when, again, when I look at it, it's not it's it's tech, it's tech, it's data, it's people. That's how I look at it,   Michael Hingson ** 55:16 right? And a lot of the same rules apply across the board. Yes, there are specific things about each industry that are different, but the basics are the same.   Stuart Pollington ** 55:28 That's it. I, in fact, I that isn't almost, there's almost word for word. What I use when I'm explaining our approach to SEO, I just say, Look, you know, there's, there's three core areas with SEO, it's the tech, the on site, it's the content, and it's the off site signals, or the link building. I said they're the three core areas for Google. They've been the same for, you know, 20 years. Within those areas, there's lots of individual things you need to look at, and that changes a lot. And there's 1000s of things that go into the algorithm, but the basics are the same. Sort your tech, sort the text, sort the tech of it out, the speed of the site and the usability. Make sure your content is good and relevant and authoritative, and then get other sites to recommend you and reference you, you know So, but, yeah, that's very similar to how I try and explain SEO. Yeah, you know all this stuff going on, but you still got the core basics of the same.   Michael Hingson ** 56:29 It is the same as it has always been, absolutely. So what do you do? Or how do you deal with a situation when plans necessarily don't go like you think they should, and and all that. How do you stay motivated?   Stuart Pollington ** 56:45 I mean, it depends, it depends what's gone wrong. But, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm a big believer in, you know, learning from your mistakes and then learning also learning from what went wrong. Because sometimes you don't make a mistake and something goes wrong, but something still goes wrong. I think it helps. It helps to have a good team around you and have a good support team that you can talk to. It's good to be able to work through issues. But, I mean, for me, I think the main thing is, you know, every like you were saying earlier, about asking questions and being a student for a year. You know everything that happens in business, good or bad, is a lesson that should help you be better in the future. So you know the first thing, when something goes wrong, understand what's gone wrong first. Why did it go wrong? How did it go wrong? How do we resolve this, if we need to resolve something for the client or us, and then how do we try and limit that happening in the future? And then what do we learn from that? And how do we make sure we can improve and be better? And I think, you know, it's not always easy when things go wrong, but I think I'm long enough in the tooth now that I understand that, you know, the bad days don't last. There's always a good day around the corner, and it's about, you know, working out how you get through   Michael Hingson ** 58:10 it. And that's the issue, is working it out. And you have to have the tenacity and, well, the interest and the desire to work it out, rather than letting it overwhelm you and beat you down, you learn how to move forward.   Stuart Pollington ** 58:25 Yeah, and that's not easy, is it? I mean, let's be honest. I mean, even, even being when we were younger and kids, you know, things happen. It does. We're just human, aren't we? We have emotions. We have certain feelings. But if you can just deal with that and then constructively and critically look at the problem, you can normally find a solution.   Michael Hingson ** 58:46 Yeah, exactly. What's one piece of advice you wished you had learned earlier in your entrepreneurial career?   Stuart Pollington ** 58:56 Um, I Yeah. I mean, for this one. I think, I think what you said earlier, actually, it got me thinking during wise we've been talking because I was kind of, I would say, don't be afraid to ask questions just based on what we've been talking about. It's changed a little bit because I was going to say, well, you know, one of the things I really wish I'd learned or known earlier was, you know, about the value of mentorship and kind of finding the the right people who can almost show you where you need to be, but you could, you know, but when people hear the word mentor, they think of either or, you know, someone really, yeah, high up who I could I'm too afraid to ask them, or someone who's going to cost you 1000s of dollars a month. So actually, I'm going to change that to don't be afraid to ask questions, because that's basically what you'd expect from a mentor, is to be able to ask. Questions, run ideas. And I think, I think, yeah, I think thinking back now, understanding that the more questions you ask, the more information you have, the better your decisions you can make. And obviously, don't be afraid to learn from other people's experience, because they've been through it, and potentially they could have the right way for you to get through it as well.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:24 And you never know where you're going to find a mentor. Exactly,   Stuart Pollington ** 1:00:28 yeah, no, exactly. I think again, you hear the word mentor, and you think people have this diff, a certain perception of it, but it can be anyone. I mean, you know, if I my mom could be my mentor, for, for, for her great, you know, cooking and things that she would do in her roast dinners. You know that that's kind of a mentor, isn't it making a better roast dinner? So I think, yeah, I think, I   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:54 think, but it all gets back to being willing to ask questions and to listen,   Stuart Pollington ** 1:01:02 and then I would add one more thing. So ask the questions, listen and then take action. And that's where that unstoppable mindset, I think, comes in, because I think people do ask questions, people can listen, but it's the taking action. It's that final step of having the courage to say, I'm going to do this, I'm going to go for   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:23 it. And you may find out that what was advised to you may not be the exact thing that works for you, but if you start working at it, and you start trying it, you will figure out what works   Stuart Pollington ** 1:01:37 exactly. Yeah, no, exactly. That's it, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:41 Well, what a great place to actually end this. We've been doing this now over an hour, and I know, can you believe it? And I have a puppy dog who probably says, If you don't feed me dinner soon, you're going to be my dinner. So I should probably go do that. That's   Stuart Pollington ** 1:01:57 all good. So for me, I'm going to go and get my breakfast coffee. Now it's 7am now, five past seven in the morning.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:03 There you are. Well, this is my day. This has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate you being here, and I want to say to everyone listening and watching, we really appreciate you being here with us as well. Tell others about unstoppable mindset. We really appreciate that. Love to hear your thoughts and get your thoughts, so feel free to email me with any of your ideas and your your conceptions of all of this. Feel free to email me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I B, e.com, you can also go to our podcast page. There's a contact form there, and my podcast page is www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O N. Love to hear from you. Would really appreciate it if you'll give us a five star rating wherever you're watching or listening to the podcast today, if you know anyone and steward as well for you, if any one of you listening or participating knows anyone else that you think ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, we'd love to hear from you. We'd love introductions, always looking for more people to tell their stories. So that's what this is really all about. So I really appreciate you all taking the time to be here, and Stuart, especially you. Thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and we really appreciate you taking your time.   Stuart Pollington ** 1:03:26 Thank you, Michael. Thank you everyone. I really enjoyed that. And you know, in the spirit of everything, you know, if, if anyone does have any questions for me, just feel free to reach out. I'm happy to chat.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:39 How do they do that? What's the best way, I   Stuart Pollington ** 1:03:41 think probably the LinkedIn so I think on when you post and share this, you will have the link. I think   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:49 we will. But why don't you go ahead and say your LinkedIn info anyway? Okay, yeah.   Stuart Pollington ** 1:03:53 I mean, the easiest thing to do would just be the Google search for my name on LinkedIn. So Stuart pollington, it's S, T, U, a, r, t, and then P, O, L, L, I N, G, T, O, N, and if you go to LinkedIn, that is my I think I got lucky. I've got the actual LinkedIn URL, LinkedIn, forward slash, I N, forward slash. Stuart pollington, so it should be nice and easy.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:19 Yeah, I think I got that with Michael hingson. I was very fortunate for that as well. Got lucky with   Stuart Pollington ** 1:04:23 that. Yeah, they've got numbers and everything. And I'm like, Yes, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:30 Well, thank you again. This has been a lot of fun, hasn't   Stuart Pollington ** 1:04:33 it? He has. I've really enjoyed it. So thank you for the invitation, Michael.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:04:42 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Iowa Business Report Friday EditionJul. 11, 2025  Josh McLeod of the National Federation of Independent Business on need for Congressional action to permanently remove the Beneficial Ownership Information report requirement. 

The National Federation of Independent Business released their Small Business Optimism Index, also the New York Federal Reserve issued their Survey of Consumer Expectations and the American Trucking Associations released their For-Hire Truck Tonnage Index; Kevin has the details, digs into the data, offers his insights and puts the information in historic perspective. UPS plans to slim down its operations; Kevin has the details and what this means for their drivers. Oil prices react to improving world economic conditions, demand and supply data.

The National Federation of Independent Business released their Small Business Optimism Index, also the New York Federal Reserve issued their Survey of Consumer Expectations and the American Trucking Associations released their For-Hire Truck Tonnage Index; Kevin has the details, digs into the data, offers his insights and puts the information in historic perspective. UPS plans to slim down its operations; Kevin has the details and what this means for their drivers. Oil prices react to improving world economic conditions, demand and supply data.

Small businesses are increasingly recognizing the need for digital maturity and the potential benefits of artificial intelligence (AI) to enhance operational efficiency. A recent report from the National Federation of Independent Business reveals that while a significant majority of small business owners have websites, only a small fraction accept online payments. This gap highlights a pressing need for integrated e-commerce solutions that not only enable payment processing but also align with the workflows of small and medium-sized businesses (SMBs). The report indicates that many SMBs are eager to adopt technology that addresses specific pain points, with a notable percentage already utilizing AI for communication and marketing tasks.The concept of agentic AI presents a substantial growth opportunity within the technology sector, particularly for partners over the next few years. However, the adoption of agentic AI varies significantly across different market segments, with large enterprises focusing on building ecosystems around major platforms, while SMBs are more likely to adopt AI through software-as-a-service solutions. Despite the potential, a report from Gartner warns that a significant percentage of agentic AI projects may fail due to factors such as rising costs and immature use cases. This underscores the importance of informed decision-making and practical applications of AI technology.Regulatory changes are also shaping the landscape for businesses, particularly concerning data privacy and governance. Creative Commons has launched an initiative called CC Signals to create a framework for sharing datasets in the age of AI, addressing concerns about data accessibility and ethical practices. Meanwhile, a recent Supreme Court ruling in the U.S. mandates age verification for websites with sexual content, raising alarms about internet privacy and the potential risks to personal data security. These developments signal a shift in the regulatory environment, emphasizing the need for businesses to prioritize compliance and data governance as core components of their operations.In the realm of technology solutions, several companies are introducing AI-powered tools aimed at improving IT support workflows and cybersecurity measures. TeamViewer has launched TeamViewer Intelligence, which enhances remote support capabilities, while Hornet Security has introduced AI Cyber Assistant tools to bolster security for SMBs. Additionally, acquisitions such as Grammarly's purchase of SuperHuman and Comet Backup's acquisition by WebPros reflect strategic moves to enhance service offerings and integrate communication tools. As the market evolves, IT service providers must leverage these advancements to create higher-margin service offerings and ensure they remain competitive in an increasingly AI-driven landscape.  Four things to know today  00:00 SMBs Want Efficiency: AI Uptake Grows Yet Few Accept Payments Online05:37 Creative Commons Moves to Safeguard Data Commons in the AI Age08:01 TeamViewer, Addigy, and Calyptix Roll Out MSP-Centric AI and Cloud Solutions11:29 Grammarly, WebPros, and LevelBlue Deals Show Strategic Consolidation Across Tech Sectors  This is the Business of Tech.     Supported by:  https://cometbackup.com/?utm_source=mspradio&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=sponsorship All our Sponsors: https://businessof.tech/sponsors/ Do you want the show on your podcast app or the written versions of the stories? Subscribe to the Business of Tech: https://www.businessof.tech/subscribe/Looking for a link from the stories? The entire script of the show, with links to articles, are posted in each story on https://www.businessof.tech/ Support the show on Patreon: https://patreon.com/mspradio/ Want to be a guest on Business of Tech: Daily 10-Minute IT Services Insights? Send Dave Sobel a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/businessoftech Want our stuff? Cool Merch? Wear “Why Do We Care?” - Visit https://mspradio.myspreadshop.com Follow us on:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/28908079/YouTube: https://youtube.com/mspradio/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mspradionews/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mspradio/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@businessoftechBluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/businessof.tech

I always enjoy having the opportunity to speak with business professionals and leaders. Fidel Guzman not only is such a professional, but he also works in the corporate training arena teaching his company's employees and leaders about leadership and continuous improvement. Fidel comes by his talents honestly. He grew up in an environment where he needed to learn and grow. He secured a Bachelor's degree and an MBA both from Northeastern Illinois University where he graduated Summa Cum Laude. Fidel started out wanting to be a kindergarten teacher, but he ended up taking a different road. He went to work for a company where he helped people progress within various industries. The company he worked for was bought by ION Group in Chicago, IL. Fidel flourished and became the Manager of Internal Training for the company. Mr. Guzman is quite adaptable and can train people within the organization even though they may well have their own expertise in different industries. Fidel and I talk about everything from leadership, the future of corporate training and we even take time to explore how AI is and will become more a part of his work and the work we all do. When not working Fidel has various outside activities. His most loved efforts go, of course, into being part of a family. He also serves as Vice President of Education for Toastmasters International. He loves to be involved in Mixed Martial Arts. He keeps quite busy at a variety of activities and clearly loves the challenges he gets to address along the way. About the Guest: Fidel Guzman is a dynamic and enthusiastic Learning & Develoment professional with a proven track record in instructional design, project management, and training development. With a Master of Business Administration from Northeastern Illinois University, where he graduated Summa Cum Laude, Fidel has consistently demonstrated his commitment to excellence and continuous improvement. His extensive experience spans various industries, including finance, telecommunications, and fitness, showcasing his versatility and adaptability. Currently serving as the Manager of Internal Training at ION Group in Chicago, IL. Fidel and his small but mighty team facilitate onboarding programs and training initiatives for over 13,000 employees globally. He has experience developing comprehensive new hire onboarding curricula and career progression pathways for multiple departments, ensuring effective and innovative learning solutions. Fidel's leadership extends beyond his professional role, as he actively participates in numerous company committees focused on community volunteer events, work-life balance education, and diversity, equity, and inclusion. Fidel's passion for personal and professional development is evident in his certifications, including “Creating a Coaching Culture” from SHRM and “Coaching Skills for Leaders and Managers” from PMI. Fluent in both Spanish and English, he leverages his bilingual skills to connect with a diverse audience. Outside of his professional endeavors, Fidel enjoys podcasting, judo, triathlons, hiking, and poetry, reflecting his well-rounded and adventurous spirit. In addition to his professional achievements, Fidel has a strong commitment to volunteerism and community involvement. He is serving as the Vice President of Education for Toastmasters International and has been an MMA class instructor and coordinator at St. Bruno Elementary. His dedication to helping others is further demonstrated through his role as an academic tutor at Berwyn Public Library. Ways to connect with Fidel: (1) Fidel Guzman, MBA | LinkedIn New Podcast- The Hero in the Mirror on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/44xD76FcF5YFMNyuigFmBm?si=2so3OWJdQby6F91ZaY1AUg The Hero in the Mirror also on Youtube: (3) HerointheMirror - YouTube About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Greetings, everyone. I am Michael Hingson, and you are listening to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, and today we get to do the unexpected. And of course, what the unexpected is is anything that doesn't have anything to do with inclusion or diversity. So that's most things you know, in a lot of ways. Anyway, our guest today is Fidel, and am I pronouncing it right? Guzman, yes, you got it. Oh, my goodness. Comes from listening to Guzman's who play baseball. Okay, I'll take that. That's a way. So Fidel reached out to me some time ago. We're going to be doing some speaking to his company ion. But in the meanwhile, I also convinced him that he had to come on unstoppable mindset and talk with us, tell us about himself, tell us a lot about what he does and why he does it, and help to contribute to our general theme, which is that we're all more unstoppable than we think we are, and we usually underrate ourselves. So we we try to improve by discovering that more people are unstoppable than we think they are, and that we thought they were. So that works out. Well, Fidel has a degree in business. He has a Masters of Business Administration. You graduated sigma cum laude, which is pretty cool. And I did cum laude, but I didn't get to do sigma or Magna, but that's okay, but that's okay anyway. Fidel, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Fidel Guzman ** 02:56 Michael, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.   Michael Hingson ** 03:00 Well, my pleasure, and I'm looking forward to to chatting and talking about some businessy things and anything else that you want to talk about. So let's start this way. It's always fun to do this. Why don't we start by you telling us kind of, maybe, about the early Fidel growing up and some of that stuff, and what got you started down the road of life as it were.   Fidel Guzman ** 03:20 Yeah, yeah, that's all right, yeah, let's let's go back. Let's go back to where it all started,   Michael Hingson ** 03:25 long time ago,   Fidel Guzman ** 03:30 definitely. So I'm born and raised in Los Angeles, Compton, Huntington Park area. I come from Mexican parents. They they they came here to the United States to give their their family a better future. Some first generation Mexican American, very proud. So actually, we do have a little diversity in here on this call. Oh, good. There we go. Yeah. So first generation Mexican American, my family traveled a lot when I was young. My dad's a truck driver, so wherever there was work, he would take us along. So we grew up and raised Los Angeles. I was seven or eight, then we ended up going to Mexico for a couple years, in Dallas, then St Louis, and then we ended up here in Chicago, here in the Midwest. Wow. Winter, the winters here were a bit surprising and tough. When I was in elementary school, I remember the first snow that I saw. It was, it was beautiful. After two weeks, I was like, All right, when is it? When is it gonna go away? And I was in for the the rude awakening that it's gonna it's gonna stick around for, for a few months or so, yeah, but I've had, you know, since then here, here in Chicago, we started to grow our roots. And I have five brothers and a sister. So I have a big family, a big Hispanic family, and I went to high school. My freshman year, I went to Lane Tech. Tech for all my folks who are familiar with the Chicagoland area. And then I ended up going to transferring over to Morton West in Berwyn. After I graduated high school, I went to Northeastern Illinois University, my alma mater, I got my undergrad in business management and marketing, and also got my Masters in Business Administration. So I am a proud double alumni from Northeastern Illinois University, and I really owe this, this community of Northeastern Illinois University, a lot with respect to the great teachers that they have there, the community that they try to build, and the friends and that I made along the way, as well as the education, of course, that helped, really helped me expand my career opportunities. After I graduated from Northeastern Illinois University with my undergrad, I started my first real corporate role inside of backstop solutions. And backstop solutions was a still, you know, it was a great company to be a part of lots of mentors. If I can, actually, I would like to give a quick shout out to a few mentors that I had along the way, such as Deanne Falk, Richard fu our CEO, our legacy CEO, Clint Coghill, Sarah Schroeder, and the current head of learning and development under ion. Alexander Lloyd and I really want to thank them for all their mentorship and leadership, because it's really helped me get and grow to the person that I am today. So with that, yeah, I am the manager of internal training at ion. We came I came in via an acquisition, when backstop was acquired, and throughout that period, like I was, I had some some free time, so to say, and ended up getting my Masters in Business Administration.   Michael Hingson ** 06:48 And so along the way, did you get yourself married and all that? Oh, my   Fidel Guzman ** 06:52 wife is going to kill me. Yes. Along the way, sorry about that. No, yeah, yeah, of course, yeah. Can't forget, can't forget about those significant others. But yes, I am married. My wife has a master's in occupational therapy, so she's in the medical field, and I'm in, like, the business learning and development side of things, so our conversations are pretty interesting, as well as our perspectives on things. I also have a daughter. She's 16, going on 17 people are usually very surprised when I tell them the age of my daughter, but had her early when I was in my early 20s, so young dad and she was a blessing. I wouldn't, wouldn't have it any other way.   Michael Hingson ** 07:33 That's that is great. Why did you decide to go into business and study business in college.   Fidel Guzman ** 07:42 So interestingly enough, when I got into college, I wanted to be a kindergarten teacher. I wanted to be cool Mr. Guzman, because I also really I love kids. I love working with kids. I was also a mixed martial arts program coordinator and instructor at an elementary school on the south side of Chicago for three years, and that was during my undergrad. And I taught all grades kindergarten through eighth grade, some of the basics in boxing, wrestling, jiu jitsu and kickboxing, so a bit of both. But as I was going through through my clinicals, as I was going through the the Yeah, the education aspect of it, I ended up wanting to switch majors. So I was like, I was like, hey, there's probably a lot more opportunity, a lot more opportunity for growth inside of the business segment. So I ended up switching my majors to business management, marketing, and somehow learning just found its way back into my life. So a lot of the stuff that I learned from some of those, those preliminary courses in in education. I mean, still, still resonate to this day, right? Understand your audience. Understand which students are visual learners, which ones are experiential learners. Which one need more repetitive exercise to to drill something in? So, yeah, the universe did not, did not lead me too far away from, from from teaching and being an instructor, and here I am. I know   Michael Hingson ** 09:08 that feeling well. So a couple things. First of all, I was born in Chicago, but we moved to California when I was five, but in Chicago, you start kindergarten at the age of four. So I went for a year to a special kindergarten class that my parents and others advocated for, for premature, blind kids, because there were a whole bunch in the Chicago area during the whole baby boomer area, a number of children were born prematurely and given a pure oxygen environment, which caused them to lose their eyesight. And so the bottom line is that happened to me among others. And so I went to the Perry school. I don't even know if it's around anymore. Somebody told me it wasn't around anymore, but that's where I went to school. And went there for a year of kindergarten, learned braille and other things. And then we moved to California. So I always wanted to be a teacher as well, and I came at teaching from a different standpoint, as you did. That is to say, Well, I wanted to be a teacher. My first job out of college wasn't directly teaching, except I ended up having to write training materials and do other things like that, and then I ended up going into sales, and what I learned is that the best sales people are really teachers. They're counselors. They guide and they help people, especially when you're dealing with major account sales, they help people look at products. They teach about what their product does and the really good sales people are brave enough to admit when their product might not be the best fit for someone, because it's also all about building trust. And good teachers are concerned about building trust as well. Of course.   Fidel Guzman ** 10:57 Yeah, one of my teachers when I was close to graduating, you know, one of the things that you know this teacher, Dr funk, if I remember correctly, he instilled in us, if you're able to synthesize what you learned and explain it to a five year old, you've done a good job. Like you, you you yourself understand that particular concept or that particular topic. And I really took that to heart. So now, you know, and a lot of these roles, if, from the the main instructor, I want and need to be able to explain it, you know, to my kid, to explain it in in simple terms. And, of course, you know, expand on it if needed. But, but   Michael Hingson ** 11:40 it ultimately comes down to you can provide all the information you want, but they have to teach themselves, really, and they're not going to do that, and they're not going to listen to you if they don't trust you. So trust is a vital part of what we do,   Fidel Guzman ** 11:56 exactly spot on,   Michael Hingson ** 11:58 and I have found that that developing that trust is so extremely important. I learned a lot about trust from working with guide dogs, right from the very first guide dog that I obtained back in 1964 when I was 14. It was all about building a team and I and although I didn't know how to really externally, say it necessarily, until many years later, internally, I understood that my job was to build a relationship and that I was going to be the team leader, and needed to be able to gain trust, as well as trust my teammate in in what we did. So worked out pretty well, though. So, you know, I was that was pretty cool. So what does ion do? What is ion?   Fidel Guzman ** 12:49 Yeah, I yeah for sure. So ion is a essentially, you can, you can think of it as a software company for the investment community. We provide a number of different platforms for them to streamline their processes and track information, or be end users of that of data.   Michael Hingson ** 13:07 So people buy your software and do what   Fidel Guzman ** 13:11 they can either leverage the data that's being provided to them, or they can include data within specific platforms.   Michael Hingson ** 13:20 Are you starting to see that this whole concept of so called AI is valuable in what you do, or, as I am working with that yet,   Fidel Guzman ** 13:30 yes, definitely, we are big on streamlining processes and making sure that we're maximizing the best use of everyone's time, and AI really has a really important component in that. So for for learning and development, one of the ways that we're using AI is for content creation, so whether it's just creating a simple outline for a course or starting to use that to create slides, but there, we're also taking a look at the way AI can be used on a regular basis to provide feedback for reps like let's say someone finishes a demo. If they want to do some self reflection, they can leverage AI to get some feedback on what worked well what didn't. Was there enough engagement? How was my use of technology, so on and so forth. So not only is AI being used from, you know, creating content, but also as, like a ad hoc instructor and and way to generate feedback,   Michael Hingson ** 14:31 well, and it offers so much versatility, you can really have it go many different ways. So it is very possible it can be an instructor, as you say, an ad hoc instructor, but it really can present its information in a good teaching way too. So you can have conversations with it. You can do the same sorts of things that you would do with a teacher. I think that AI clearly, is here to stay, but I think. Think over time, AI is going to evolve a lot. I am not of the opinion that AI will replace people for a variety of reasons, but I think that it's here and it's up to us to be smart as to how we use it.   Fidel Guzman ** 15:14 Definitely. I think one of the the tips that we always give people is AI does a really great job of a number of different things, but it's always going to need that human touch at the end of at the end of the day. So don't just take don't just take some content that AI has created and take it to heart. Make sure to review it. Make sure to put that personal touch on there and have it speak your language. Have it really resonate with the audience as well, especially that, oh, go ahead. Or also just on Super mechanical, super scripted,   Michael Hingson ** 15:49 well, and I think as AI grows, it's going to try to emulate, or we're going to use it to try to emulate people more and more, but it still isn't going to get to the point where it truly is me or you, and we do have to put our mark on it. I've used it to help create several articles, and what I've done when I do that is I'll tell it what I want it to write about, and let it do it, and it comes up with some pretty good ideas that I incorporate into the article, that I create, between what it provides and what I add to the mix. And it really should be that way. Exactly what I've really found interesting is the number of people like in classrooms, who say teachers, who say, you know, it's really harder and harder and harder to tell when a student uses AI to write a paper or if the student is doing it themselves. And the first time I heard that, immediately, my idea of what to do was something like this, let the student use AI if they want to, let the have ai do the whole paper. What you ought to do is to have one day after all the students turn their papers in, where you bring each student up to the front of the class and say, defend your paper. Now you have one minute if they don't really know, yeah. I mean, if they don't know what's going on, then they're not going to be able to do very well, and they fail.   Fidel Guzman ** 17:19 Yes, I am a big proponent of comprehensive exercises and also public speaking. How well? How well can you articulate the thought that you gave in that paper? Right? Some of those different talking points, right? Can you convey the same message in front of the classroom?   Michael Hingson ** 17:38 Yeah, and, and, you can tell if a person is just not necessarily a great public speaker, they're nervous, as opposed to whether they know the subject. And those, in a sense, are two different things. But you can use the fact that students are at the front of the classroom to help make them better speakers, too, which is a good thing.   Fidel Guzman ** 17:59 Yeah, no, yeah. I agree with you. If they are using AI, just, you know, turn around a paper, have them present in front of the classroom. Yeah, let's, let's talk a bit more about your paper, yeah, and, and really have it be an interactive exercise. I think that's really where the end goal is going to be, now that AI has really taken over the way the classroom dynamic has changed. So having more of those interactive exercises, really taking a look at comprehension, whether somebody really understands that topic, and giving giving students and an audience an opportunity to discuss, how do we how do we create a hive mind mentality around this particular topic, especially in a classroom, right whether, whether that's in a school setting, in academia, or whether that's in a corporate setting, inside of an office.   Michael Hingson ** 18:54 Several months ago, we had a guest on unstoppable mindset, who's an executive leadership coach in Northern California who was a major proponent of AI. And when he worked with companies, and especially with presidents and leaders who were stuck on how we evolve and how we grow, he would bring AI into all those meetings, and one day he was dealing with one such situation where he told the president, you got to use you ought to use AI to get some great ideas. The President took that to heart, called his senior leadership staff in and said, take the rest of this day and create ideas about how you think we ought to do things better, and so on, and use AI to do it. And when everyone came in the next day, they had a lot of innovative and creative ideas, and all loved the fact that he encouraged them to use AI. And that led to. Us having a discussion about, is AI going to really take over the jobs that people do? And both of us agreed, no, AI won't. Ai can't replace anyone. We can fire somebody and then put AI in their place, which doesn't really work well. But what is a better thing is let ai do what it does well. So example that he gave was say, you have autonomous vehicles. As autonomous vehicles become more and more prevalent, like trucks that are delivering supplies, like shipping vehicles and so on, let the autonomous vehicle drive, but the driver needs to still be in the cabin and needs to be behind the wheel, even though they're not doing anything, because they are going to let the autonomous vehicle do what it can do. But you can give those people other assignments to do for the company that will keep them busy and do things that otherwise might not be done quite as efficiently. So the bottom line is, you keep people busy, you use the autonomous vehicle, and it's a win win situation all the way around.   Fidel Guzman ** 21:08 Yeah, great. I I've heard something very similar to that, and maybe if I can, if I can synthesize this, it's going to be that we want to remove manual task out of people's times, and we want them to focus on more higher value add activities. Do   Michael Hingson ** 21:29 you think that's fair? I think that's true. Isaac Asimov, years ago, the science fiction writer, wrote a really wonderful science fiction story about a young man who lived in a society where everyone had a particular job to do, and you were matched with your talents. And so there you you're you take a test when you're, like, eight years old and or or even younger, and that starts you down the road of what it is you're supposed to do for the whole country. And then you take another test several years later, and that locks you into what you're trained to do. So you always do the same task, but you do it well, because that's what you're trained to do. Well, this kid was in the whole process taking his tests, and he just wasn't comfortable with what was going on. And eventually he ran away. And what, you know, he he took the last test, apparently they looked at him kind of funny when they looked at the results and he didn't like what was going on. And he just left. He said, I'm not going to do this. I don't, I don't. I don't want to be an engineer. I don't want to do whatever it is that they want. And they eventually caught up with him, and they caught him, and they said, Why'd you run away? And he told them, and then said, No, you don't understand what just happened. Some people in society are the people who create the tests, create the processes, and don't get trained to do a specific thing, because they're the innovators and the inventors that keep society going, and you're one of those kids, and this was like, what, 50 years ago that he wrote that? So it's, it is, it is really interesting, but, but very true and, and the reality is, we can be as creative as we choose to be, and some people are more creative than others, but there are always tasks that we can find for anyone to do, and that will make them very happy,   23:40 absolutely, definitely.   Michael Hingson ** 23:42 So it works out. You know, it does work out really well. Well, a question for you. You have a leadership philosophy, needless to say, and you lead a lot in instructional design, what, what are the core principles, or what are the things that kind of make up how you teach leadership, and what it is that you teach people to do, and how do you go about team development?   Fidel Guzman ** 24:13 Yeah, I think some of the core principles that I that I really focus on with learning and development and instructional design. Number one, it has to be collaboration. It really does take a community to put some some really good training sessions and training opportunities in place, and it's really leveraging all the expertise from different subject matter experts. Give them a chance to share their perspectives and their insights on certain things, but also, really, just to enhance, you know, the the use of these training programs, because people are more keen to listen to like, oh yeah, this guy's a subject matter he's an expert in this particular. Their space and for them to to hop on. So I think that collaboration aspect is, you know, getting the Lean In from managers like, hey, this training is important. Your employees are going to benefit from this training, whether it's just for to develop their their education, to develop their career, whatever that may look like. But I want to say one of the, the first guiding principles is going to have to be collaboration. The second one is going to have to be most likely continuous improvement. As we start to roll out a lot of these different training sessions, whether it's public speaking, whether it's product training, whether it's industry training, if we roll it out, we keep our ear to the ground and make sure that we're receptive to the feedback. We take a look at what works well, what doesn't work well, what needs to be tailored. How can we, how can we also manage this across different time zones? So ion is super global company, I want to say, over 13,000 employees in over 13 plus countries. So also managing what those training programs look like for everyone, for everyone, across the board. So besides the collaboration, besides the continuous improvements or the I like to also say that the Kaizen, the Japanese philosophy of Kaizen, right, making those small improvements, the last one I want to say is going to be innovation. How can we incorporate, right? We were talking about AI. How can we incorporate some of these ladies, latest tech trends into what our training delivery looks like, whether it's something as simple as, how do we include more polls throughout a lecture to keep people engaged and participate? How do we include knowledge checks at the end of every session to make sure that people are walking away with some of the key takeaways. So, yeah, collaboration, continuous improvement and innovation. Yeah, how do we stay innovative and stay creative? I think having having some fun, staying creative along the way Definitely, definitely resonates with your audience as you're trying to do different things and trying to keep things as engaging and and fun as possible.   Michael Hingson ** 27:06 What do you say to someone who says, Look, I've really learned all I need to learn. I'm not really interested in learning anything new. That is, I know, isn't that? Yeah, but you hear it a lot, I'm sure, or too much. I   Fidel Guzman ** 27:22 think some people get comfortable right, like, Hey, I'm comfortable with what I know. And learning does require a certain level of mental energy, and it also requires a certain level of you being willing to take on a new challenge, to take on and learn something new. So to them, I would genuinely ask, what's your interest? How can we supplement what this interest looks like? You know, what are your interests in other avenues? And I think that will plant a seed to let them know that learning and development should be something learning, right? Just learning in general, it should be something that you should do throughout your life. I recently started a podcast called the hero in the mirror, and I wanted to take a moment and actually, thank you, Michael. I don't know if you remember our initial conversation. But we were talking, we were talking about, you had asked me, What ideas do you have? What are you working on? Are you working on, any books, any podcasts? And I had mentioned, I was like, Hey, I actually have an idea for a podcast. And you pause for a moment, and you were like, what's stopping it? Yeah, and it was, it was kind of like, it kind of took me back. I'm like, What? What is stopping me? Right? And sometimes, and in coaching, we call it interference, like you're you probably have a fear of failure. You have a fear that something's not going to go right, or this task seems enormous, that you don't know where to start. Yeah, so making small, small mental changes, making small steps, I think, definitely add up. Since then, Michael, I've had I've had three episodes. I've had some great guests hop on and share their story of resilience and triumph. And as I'm starting to do more episodes, I'm I'm hearing stories of people willing to have that, that mindset of, I want to continue to learn, I want to continue to expand on the person that I am and make myself well rounded in these different, different areas. So So, long story short, if somebody says I don't, I don't need to learn anything, there's always room for growth. There's always room for interest, what, what interests you, and how? And how can we follow that interest and and supplement it with some some training content.   Michael Hingson ** 29:49 I know, for me, I'm extremely comfortable with what I know, and I'm extremely comfortable with what I've learned, but I'm also very uncomfortable in knowing there's a lot of stuff I don't know and that i. Still need to learn. So I love to learn right from the very beginning, when I first discovered the internet, I regarded it and still do, no matter what there is with the dark web and everything else, I think the internet is a treasure trove of information, and it's so fun to discover new things online. And there's so many ways to go. We've got so many places where we can go get books that we never had access to before all of us. There's so many places where we can go to learn about organizations, about people. They're just so many wonderful things, and it's only one way, because I also think there is a lot to be said for real personal interactions, but I think the internet is a wonderful treasure trove that gives us the opportunity to learn a whole lot that we don't necessarily know about, subjects that we don't know anything about.   Fidel Guzman ** 30:55 The Internet is a double sided sword. It is. You can find information that will support right? Maybe you know an opinion that you have on the other side of that, you can find lots of information that does not support independent opinion that you have. And also it's a rabbit hole. Soon as you start going out that rabbit hole. But the one thing I do appreciate from the internet is the channels of communication that it's built. Yeah, and I'm appreciative of being able to have connected with you on LinkedIn, and that's turned out to us having this podcast here today.   Michael Hingson ** 31:34 I think that for me, I'm not as interested on going online and in finding something to change an opinion as much as I am finding something that will tell me about something that I didn't know as much about. Now I might change my opinion from what I thought it might be, but I I really love to try to really get as much as possible into dealing with facts or substance to teach me things, and then I'll form my own opinion from that. Yeah, you know what I'm saying. Of course,   Fidel Guzman ** 32:11 gets a good grounding of all the all the materials, synthesize it yourself.   Michael Hingson ** 32:19 Yeah, I think we should do that. I think we have to be the one to synthesize whatever it is we're dealing with. That's That's our responsibility, and that should always be the way it is, which is, and I don't want to get political or anything, but which is one of the reasons that I say any politician who says, Trust me will be the first person I won't trust until I verify. I am a firm believer in trust, but verify. I don't care who it is. I think it's so important that we really take the time every single person needs to take the time to study what's going on, and and, and really look at all sides of something. I think that's important. I listen to newscasts regularly, and I like to listen to newscasts from all sides. Some I find why I don't want to listen to them very much, because of what they do or don't do, but I still think that it's important to really understand all sides of a subject.   Fidel Guzman ** 33:29 Absolutely, I totally agree with you.   Michael Hingson ** 33:32 So you know, I think it is kind of neat to to have that opportunity, and I think we learn so much when we take the time to really study. I'm amazed. I was at a restaurant once, and my wife and I were there. We were talking about newspapers and what we get from newspapers or online, and our waitress came up and Karen said, so do you read the newspaper? And this woman's 30 years old, and she says, No, I don't. I don't have time, you know. And how little she learns, because she doesn't really seek information, which is too bad.   Fidel Guzman ** 34:07 Yep, you people have to be receptive. People have to be receptive to to gaining new bits of information. And sometimes people are just happy knowing like you, like you mentioned earlier, just happy knowing what they're what they know, just comfortable in in their own space, until some more power to that, more more power to them, more power to them,   Michael Hingson ** 34:31 until something happens to disrupt the happiness and surprises them, because they really didn't learn enough to know that that was a possibility. Yep, I never thought I would be doing a podcast, but when the pandemic occurred, I started to learn about it, and learned all the value of it. Now, I had been at our campus radio station at UC Irvine for six years, and I was program director one year, so I understood radio, and when I started learning about podcasts. They went, this is really pretty cool, and I had never thought about it, and had never been interviewed on a podcast, but I realized I know what I can can do with this, and I know that I can sound intelligent on the air. And so I started to learn about it, and here we are now, just today, actually, we published online and in YouTube episode 324 of unstoppable mindset since August of 2021 Congratulations, Michael. Well, thank you. It's a lot of fun. We actually went to two episodes a week in August of 2022 Oh, wow, because we had such a huge backlog. Yeah, and I don't mind having a huge backlog, but it was growing way too much. So we went to two episodes a week, and and it's a lot of fun to to do it. And as and as I love to tell people, for me, the most important thing is I get to learn from every single person who comes on the podcast. It's so neat to be able to do that, of course. So it works out really well. Well for you, what kind of challenges have you faced? What have you done to overcome challenges, and what are some of the biggest challenges you faced, and how you did you deal with them?   Fidel Guzman ** 36:17 Okay, yeah, that's great. That's some of the questions I use on on my podcast, here in the mirror. So I'm on the I'm on the other side of that chair today. Yes, no, it's good. It's good. It's a good question. So I want to say, you know, there are, there are three main, three main challenges that really stand out for me. One I'm very vocal about, and that is my speech impediment, my stuttering problem. It was really bad when I was little kid. I had a speech pathologist. Even now, talking to you on this podcast, I have to be very conscious with what I'm saying. Some of the listeners might might have caught it in the beginning when I get too excited about a particular topic, or if I haven't formulated my thought yet, but the speech impediments is something that has really made public speaking a passion for me. It was hard for me to have a voice when I was a little kid, I used to try to raise my hand and answer a question when I was in elementary school, and the teacher would be like, All right, next one like you had, you had your turn. And so I, you know, I've struggled, you know, to have a voice. I struggled with just completing sentences, and the way that I overcame that is through a speech pathologist that really gave me the confidence to believe in myself. I remember one exercise she gave me one day is she grabbed me from my classroom. She would pick me up from my classroom every Tuesday and Thursday, and she picked me up one day, and I was kind of down in the dumps. I didn't really like going to the class. We weren't really advancing much. And she's like, Hey, we're going to try something different tonight. Different today. She's like, today I'm going to have the order of pizza. And I was still a little little fat kid, like fourth or fifth grade, so I was like, oh, yeah, I'm all for it. What's going on here? And she was like, but the catch is, you need to order this pizza without stuttering. And you know, right away, kind of my heart dropped. And she's like, okay, like, don't, don't worry, we're gonna practice exactly what you want to order. And she's like, What do you want? And I'm like, Well, I want a large pepperoni pizza with an RC, a two liter RC Cola delivered to McPherson Elementary. And she's like, okay. She's like, write it down. I'm like, Alright, great to like, write it down again. I must have written it like, 10 times. She's like, No, now practice it. So about 15 minutes of doing that, she was like, All right, I think you're ready. She hands me the phone and, you know, I pick it up. My heart's in my throat, and I'm just like, like, I'm like, hi, you know, I want to order a large pepperoni pizza with a two liter RC Cola delivered to McPherson elementary for Fidel Guzman, and I was just astonished. I hung up the phone. I was happy for two reasons. Number one, I was going to get some pizza. Number two, I was able to say it a complete, full sentence without stuttering. And she she really believed in me and instilled in me that confidence that I could overcome this. But it wasn't an overnight success. It still required me go going to the speech pathologist, you know, throughout my elementary school, throughout all those years, and even as an adult, continuing to practice and hone that in in high school, doing presentations, in college, doing presentations. So right now, I am the VP of education for our America's Toastmasters Club, and this is one story i i always tell people, and they're like, No, you don't stutter. I'm like, if I get too excited, I'll lower my words. But that was that was one challenge, that was one challenge, and it's. Is it's still something I have to be very conscious of. And I've caught myself a couple times earlier in this podcast where I kind of mumble a little bit or get caught up in a particular word. But besides that one, I want to say that the second one was more of my in college. In college, I struggled paying for school. I mentioned I'm first generation Mexican American, and I was one, one of the first, first of my brothers to attend college full time. And I did all I could to make ends meet, two, three jobs, just paying for tuition. Financial aid was great, you know, it really helped me with a portion of that, but a lot of it really ended up, you know, being due onto me. And then I had my daughter, and it was just a struggle. I was like, How can I be a dad? How can I be a student? How can I work on my career? And I had gone to a financial aid workshop, and the one thing that stood out in this workshop was when they were talking about scholarships granted in high school when you're about to graduate, they talk to you about it, but it doesn't. It doesn't really materialize until you're until you receive that bill. Yeah, you're just like, hey, here's, here's a $2,000 bill for this college class. And you're like, oh, man, this is, this is not, this is not cheap. It's pretty expensive. And the one thing you know that stood out was, you know, let the scholarships, and they started talking about scholarship applications, and I found that there were a couple common denominators with the scholarships. Number one, they wanted two letters of two letters of recommendation. Number two, they want an essay. What are you going to do with your degree? How are you going to make a positive impact in the community? And number three, sometimes, typically an interview. And so I ran with it. I was like, they want two letter, letters of recommendation. They want one essay. They want an interview. No problem. And I made that my part time job. On the weekends, I would just apply, apply, apply. And I started getting some small wins. I started getting a $250 scholarship here, a $500 scholarship there, $1,000 scholarship, you know, here, and all of it started to add up, and it started to gain momentum. And I was lucky enough to get, get, get accepted for a number of different scholarships and complete my my college education, and even, you know, be strong willed enough to go back and do it again and try to try to get my masters. So those were two, two big ones, but I'll pause here and see if you have any questions around those two challenges for me. Michael, no,   Michael Hingson ** 42:41 but I I really admire what you did. You You made a choice and you followed it through. And I think that's of course, the whole issue is that we have to make choices and we need to follow through. And if we find that, we need to refine our decisions. We do that. I know when I was a student and a program director at the university radio station, I wanted everyone to listen to themselves. I thought it was a great idea to have everyone listen to themselves on the air. And the way you do it is you record it and you give it to them. And I didn't anticipate how hard that was going to be, because for me, I was used to doing it for myself, yeah, but I I didn't realize how much resistance I was going to get from literally everyone at the radio station, they were not interested in and I'm thrilled about doing it at all. What I and the engineer at the station did eventually was to put a cassette recorder in a locked cupboard, and whenever the microphone was activated, the recorder would go on. So, you know, you didn't have to hear the music. You just wanted to hear yourself talk. And we, we really took a major step and said, You have to listen to these recordings. We gave each person a cassette. We expect you to listen to these recordings and improve accordingly. What I didn't say much was, I know what it's like. I'm my own worst critic, and I have to listen to it, so you guys do now. I've changed that, and I'll get to it in a second, but we pushed everyone to do it, and it wasn't long, not only before we started seeing improvement, but before the people themselves started recognizing that they were really getting comfortable listening to themselves and that they were taking this to heart, and by the end of the year, we had people who were loving it and wanting their cassette every day or every week, and also a. Some of them went into broadcasting. For me, what I learned, and it took many years before I learned it is I'm not my own worst critic. I shouldn't be negative, as I said earlier, I'm the only one who can really teach me. I'm my own best teacher. And I think when you make that mind shift from being your own worst critic to your own best teacher, it really puts things in a much more positive light. And I've said that before on the podcast, and I will continue to say it, because I think it's a very important   Fidel Guzman ** 45:29 concept. We actually have a similar exercise for our America's Toastmasters Club, where we'll we'll record some speeches, and we'll have people listen back to their recorded speech. And a lot of people say like, man, it's cringe to hear yourself on the on the other side, on the other side of those iPhones, but it is a very useful exercise. You get a better understanding of your your filler words, your eyes, your arms, your vocal variety, your body language. And if you're looking to be a great, I don't want to say public speaker, but if you're just looking just to speak better in general, even when it's an on a presentation, on a call, or if you have to give up a toast at a wedding or a quinceanera, for you to be able to, yeah, critique yourself and gather feedback from your from your own recording   Michael Hingson ** 46:23 well. And the reality is, the more of it you do, and the more you listen to it, having been up there in front giving the speech, you also see how people react. And if you continue to observe and listen to the recordings as you go forward, you will improve, yeah, for sure, which is which is really important. And one of the things that I try to do regularly now is to record talks. When I go and give a speech somewhere, I will record it so that I can listen to it and I enjoy it, because I discover Did I really say that I shouldn't have said it quite that way, but I'll do better next time. But listening to it helps such a tremendous amount,   Fidel Guzman ** 47:13 especially with those filler words. So when you really listen to the recording, you'll be like, Man, I use a lot of likes or SOS or ands or buts, and if you want to speak eloquently, it is, I mean, like anything, you just gotta practice it. You gotta practice it, and you have to be receptive to that, the feedback. And you have to also celebrate the small wins. One thing I am a big proponent on is celebrate the small wins. Yeah. So if you are able to do your your first speech at a Toastmasters clubs like we, we give you tons of accolades, because it is not an easy fit, an easy feat. If you're able to do the second one, even better. You're, you're progressing, and you're, you know, you're increasing your understanding of some of the fundamentals of public speaking. Yeah, so you're preaching to the choir here.   Michael Hingson ** 48:05 Yeah, no, I understand. Oh yeah, it's good, but it is really important to do, and it's fun to do. If you decide to make it fun, and if you decide that you want to become a better communicator there. There are lots of us and all that sort of stuff that people do. I've heard some people say that's really not such a bad thing. Well, I've got to say that I've never really been used to having a lot of us. And you know, there's a guy out here who I don't think he's alive anymore. He used to be a sports announcer out here. His name was Jim Healy, and you may have heard him when, well, out here in Los Angeles, anyway, he was on K lac, and he had somebody, well, he had a recording of somebody, one of the sports jocks, and he announced that he was going to play this recording, and what you're going to hear is this guy in 60 seconds say, you know, 48 times, that's and he did what's amazing, that   Fidel Guzman ** 49:17 when you when you get to Some of those, it's like, what do they say? Nails on a chalkboard? You're like, Oh, yeah. Like, what are you trying to say? Just, just say it. To say, to say the damn thing.   Michael Hingson ** 49:30 Yeah, talk a little bit slower and just say it.   Fidel Guzman ** 49:33 One thing that I'm trying to be conscious, more conscious of is pauses, like those deliberate pauses, those deliberate pauses to collect your thoughts, like I often need, just to collect myself, but also to build suspense the message and the message that you're trying to give, especially when you're in front of a group of people, in front of an audience, and you're pausing there, they're just like, oh, what? So what is he? What is he gonna say next? What's up? What's going on with this pause? So it's also you have this arsenal of tools when it comes to to public speaking and to engage with an audience and to keep them, to keep them interested in what your next thought is going to be. What What am I going to say next? How am I going to, you know, align this topic to something else that I want to discuss.   Michael Hingson ** 50:24 I love, yeah, I've discovered the value of pauses. You can make a pause last too long, and one of the things you learn is how long to make a pause. But I love pauses. They really do add a lot of value. There they get. Well, you talk a lot about continuous improvement, and clearly you you really love the whole concept. What's an example of a project where you instituted continuous improvement, and how do you make that happen? Thanks, Michael.   Fidel Guzman ** 50:56 Let's pause again. Yeah, right. I know. Yeah. All right. Michaels, Michaels, throw me. Well, not much of a curveball, but yeah, no, that's good. So I know continuous improvement. And one project that I worked on, I want to say one that comes to mind is last year I hosted a series of product boot camps. And what these product boot camps really were, were product training and networking opportunities within ion. I had just gone through the acquisition of backstop into the into the ion family, and I saw a need. I saw a need there for some product training. And what I did is I started to coordinate with subject matter experts, hence the collaboration and community principles that I have with learning and development. And started to piece together a boot camp. So a series of training sessions, and we discussed location, we discussed different components that we can include on there. We discussed remote hybrid in person, what some of those options were, and we had about, I want to say, five or six of these boot camps in 2024 and what I noticed is that for each of the boot camps we would tailor it a little bit, because each of these different products that were under specific umbrellas were for certain audiences, you know, for certain segments of the business. So we had to, I had a template, but we had to tweak that template a little bit. Who do we want to come in here? Who do we want to come in for this particular topic? When do we take breaks? If it's in person, you know? Do we take longer breaks if it's in person? How do we include some interactive components to it? How do we test people's knowledge, whether it's through live polls, whether it's using an LMS platform to do knowledge checks? How do we create a certificate based program around this? And for each of those, it was a learning experience. It was a learning experience because we, every subject matter expert, is different, right? You're building different relationships with different people, and even their style of talking or their style of teaching on a particular topic is going to be different. So those continuous improvements throughout each of those boot camps really started to to resonate and just to showcase themselves. And for each of those, we had a similar template for all of them, but we made minor tweaks to make sure that it was as engaging and and thoughtful as possible.   Michael Hingson ** 53:36 Wow. Well, that's pretty cool. Um, and I think that the very fact that you would make the tweaks and you recognize the need to do that was pretty insightful, of course, because for me, I know when I speak, some people early on told me you should write a talk and you should, you should just give that talk. I tried that once. I didn't like what I sounded like when I read a talk, and I haven't done it since. And I also realized that I do better, and sometimes it isn't necessarily a lot, but when I customize every talk so I love to go early and try to hear speakers who speak before me, or get a chance to meet people at an event, because I will learn things invariably that I will put into the talk. And sometimes I'm tweaking talks up to and including the start of the talk, and sometimes I will tweak a talk when I'm speaking and I'm getting the impression just from all the fidgeting, that maybe I'm not getting through to these people, or I'm not really doing this in the best way possible. And I will change until I get what I expect to be the audience. Reaction, because I know what an audience is like when they're fully engaged, and I also know that not every audience is the same, so I hear what you're saying. I think it's important to do that.   Fidel Guzman ** 55:13 Yeah, for you to be able to do that on the fly, kudos, kudos to that. But yeah, we you got to be able to understand that audience, understand that audience, understand what's what's going on, the dynamic of that, of that situation. So you're, you're a veteran at at this, so no surprise there.   Michael Hingson ** 55:31 Well, that's a lot of fun. Well, what do you do when you're not working you, I know you're involved in various activities and so on. So what do you do when you're, yeah, not an eye on writing, doing, training, stuff and all that.   Fidel Guzman ** 55:45 A number of different hobbies. My wife calls me the Energizer Bunny, because I'm always running around doing something, but some of my main things is right now judo. I did wrestling in high school, and I did mixed martial arts when I was getting my undergrad. And I love martial arts. I think iron sharpens iron. It's good to be around a good group of, good group of people, people who are who are like minded, people who are looking to continue to develop themselves. And yeah, if you're in a room full of tough guys, you have no other choice than to start to be a tough guy yourself. So I love martial arts. I did a couple Judo tournaments, judo and jujitsu tournaments last year, where I placed. And let's see, besides that, triathlons, I love to run, I love to bike, I love to swim. I did my first triathlon last year. I really enjoyed it. I thought it was a phenomenal experience. I mean, it's two three hours of non stop movement, but it was, it was great just to be part of that, of a huge event like that, besides the martial arts and the constant running and swimming and biking, the last thing I want to say is writing and poetry. I have started to compile all all my poems. Hopefully, in the next year or so, I'll, I'll launch a small book of poems. And, yeah, I'll keep you, I'll keep you posted on that. But I do, I do like to write on the sign, you know, hopefully a book of poems. And, you know, since since having my daughter, I've always liked children's books. I would, I would love it if I could launch my my own series of children books, and I'm working on a couple templates with that. So, yeah, stay staying busy, staying busy, physically active, but also mentally   Michael Hingson ** 57:40 active. So you haven't written any books yet. I have a   Fidel Guzman ** 57:44 couple ideas, a couple ideas of what, what kids books want to do, but you don't have any books published yet? No, none yet. None yet. Well, we're anxious to see that happen. You got, you got it, you're gonna, you're gonna light that fire. You're gonna light that fire as well. No, and again, right? I do appreciate you for for really, really motivating me to start my own podcast, because you had really said, like, what's stopping you? Like, like me, I'm stopping myself, you know. But even yet, yeah, even like, you know, being an author, I know that you're an author, you know, I would love to have a conversation offline with you. You know what that publishing experience was like, because I think that's my biggest interference right now with that, is like, I don't know where to start with the publishing. I know I can self publish. I know I can go through publishers and like, the internet, like we said, a double sided sword, yeah, you have information that tells you you should just self publish, and then you have other bits of information. Was like, You should go through a publishing company and just like, where do I Where do I choose? But I think that's why having mentors, you know, and getting to network with people who are experienced, such as yourself, and these different avenues of public speaking and being a keynote speaker and having a podcast, being a podcast host and being an author. I think, I think it's great, and you are definitely an inspiration to me. Michael, well, thank you.   Michael Hingson ** 59:11 You're familiar with Jackson Hewitt, the accounting and tax company. You got it? Okay? So I can't remember whether it was night, whether it was 2016 or 2017 but I got invited to go speak at one of their events, and I did. And while I was there, I met a woman, and I didn't know what she did, and she she, she worked at a Jackson Hewitt, and I just happened to say, what do you own of a firm? Because most of the people there were supposed to be company owners. And she said, No, maybe someday. And I said, why not? You ought to own a company. You ought to you ought to become a company owner. You'll go further Anyway, last year, she sent me an email, and she said, I've never forgotten that, and I think it was like a year later, or two years later, she's. After I and she met, she said, I got my first company, and I now own 10 branches. Wow. Back, I said, that's pretty cool. Oh,   Fidel Guzman ** 1:00:09 Michael, Michael, you are just making ripples in the universe. Just ripples doing something. Yeah, that's good. I don't want to get too religious, but you're doing God's work, man, well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:18 I hope so. You know, expect Hill. Hill. Guy, guide, or she'll guide, yeah, but so what do you think is the future of work, of workplace training and learning?   Fidel Guzman ** 1:00:30 Yeah, I think we, we touched a little bit upon this. But you know, AI, you know, definitely, how can we leverage AI for content creation, creating outlines and also using it as feedback. But I also want to to bring back the the in person training. I know we've all gotten very comfortable with, you know, doing stuff remote, but similar to the example that we talked about earlier, where that teacher was like, oh, all these, all these kids are using AI for these papers, and how do I really test their comprehension? That's, that's something you know, that in person activity, yeah, I think definitely has a tremendous amount of value, not just for the instructor, but for the end learner. Yeah. So I think, I think a mixture of like, okay, great, you know, how can we use AI to create content? How can we use it to provide, you know, feedback for people to continue to improve on certain areas. But how can we bring back that in person component?   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:38 Well, see, oh, go ahead,   Fidel Guzman ** 1:01:39 yeah, to, to to unify. It was probably that pause, that to to unify, to unify a vision, you know, a vision of of continuous improvement. You know that to unify, that vision of what a team might be aiming for, yeah. So, yeah. So, I think, I think, you know, long story short, it's going to be, you know, leveraging a bit of AI and still bringing back that, that in person aspect. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:05 you know, I I've done virtual presentations as well as, of course, lots of in person presentations. I much prefer in person to virtual but my main reason for that is that I can tell what the audience is feeling. I get a lot more information if I'm doing an in person talk than I would get if I'm just doing a virtual talk. Now I've done it long enough that I mostly can do pretty well at a virtual talk, but it's still not the same, yeah, and I still don't get exactly the same information, but I can do virtual talks, and I do and it, and it's fun and and I can play games with it, because I can always turn my video off and really drive people crazy. But you know what? What advice would you give to an aspiring leader who wants to to evolve and make make changes to their organization or to themselves and so on.   Fidel Guzman ** 1:03:06 So advice I would give for aspiring leaders. I think the the main one that I really focus on is opportunities and challenges. Be ready to embrace any opportunities that come your way, but just know that each of those opportunities, it's going to come with its own set of challenges, and be prepared for both, and be okay with dealing both at the same time. And you know last, but you know not least, is that there are there are lots of stories of triumph, and to really curate yours. What does your story of triumph look like? What is your passion and how does, how does all of that connect?   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:53 And it may be evolving, and it may be different in five years than it is today, but both memories are important, yeah, which is cool. Well, Fidel, we've been doing Can you believe we've been doing   Fidel Guzman ** 1:04:08 this for over an hour? Time flies and you're having fun,   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:12 absolutely. And I really appreciate you being here and being a part of this, and I really appreciate all of you who have been listening to us and watching us. We're really excited that you're here. I hope that this has been valuable for you as well, and that you've learned something. Fidel, if people want to reach out to you, how can they do that? I   Fidel Guzman ** 1:04:31 want to say LinkedIn, feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. What's your LinkedIn identifier? You can find me as Fidel Guzman, comma, MBA, and I'll also give you a link so you can, you can accompany it alongside this episode, yeah, but feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. That's going to be the easiest way to get in touch with me. And I'll also have some links if you want to check out my podcast. And hopefully I'll have, I'll have that book of poems out, yeah, soon.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:59 Well, that will be. Good. Well, thank you again and again. Thank you, all of you. If you'd like to reach out to Fidel, I'm sure he would appreciate it. I would, and you're welcome to reach out to me.

In this powerful episode of White Canes Connect, hosts Lisa Bryant and David Goldstein welcome Tanner Gers, founder of Access Ability Officer and Paralympian, for an inspiring and insightful conversation. Tanner shares the harrowing story of how a tragic car accident in 2004 left him totally blind—and how that life-changing event became the catalyst for a purpose-driven career in accessibility, advocacy, and entrepreneurship. Tanner discusses the evolution of Access Ability Officer. This digital accessibility consultancy not only works with government and corporate clients but also trains and hires blind professionals through its Certified Accessibility Tester (CAT) program. This rigorous 14-week training course equips screen reader users with the technical and professional skills needed to land paid work and even launch their own businesses in the booming accessibility space. The conversation touches on AI's role in the future of accessibility, the importance of inclusive design, and the potential for digital equity. Tanner also shares his love for beep baseball and why adaptive sports are essential for physical and emotional well-being. Whether you're an aspiring accessibility tester, advocate, or entrepreneur, this episode is filled with actionable insights and motivation. Show notes at https://www.whitecanesconnect.com/139   Links Mentioned Learn more about Access Ability Officer: https://accessabilityofficer.com/  Tanner Gers on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tannergers/  NABS Mid-Atlantic Student Seminar: https://nabslink.org/civicrm/event/register?reset=1&id=6  Have you checked out Federation Focus yet? https://www.youtube.com/@nfbofpa/  Tanner Gers and Access Ability Officer at National Convention Access Ability Officer is at table B25 in the Exhibit Hall. Start a Digital Accessibility Business session is in Studio 7 Wednesday, July 9 from 3:30 PM to 5:00 PM Accessibility Jeopardy in Studio 2 on Thursday, July 10 from 6:00 PM to 8:00 PM. Mid-Atlantic Student Seminar August 1 - 3 in Philadelphia The National Federation of the Blind of Pennsylvania is proud to support the National Association of Blind Students Mid-Atlantic Seminar taking place from August 1 through August 3 at the Hampton Inn at 1301 Race Street in Philadelphia. Register at https://nabslink.org/civicrm/event/register?reset=1&id=6. All of the hotel info is on that page. An Easy Way to Help the NFB of PA Support the NFB of PA with every purchase at White Cane Coffee Company by going to https://www.whitecanecoffee.com/ref/nfbp. When you use that link to purchase from White Cane Coffee, the NFB of PA earns a 10% commission! Share the link with your family and friends! Listen to Erin and Bob Willman from White Cane Coffee on episode 072 of White Canes Connect. Donate to the NFB of PA Like what you hear on White Canes Connect? Support us and donate to the National Federation of the Blind of Pennsylvania, visit https://www.NFBofPA.org/give/. We Want to Hear Your Story Reach out with questions and comments, or share ideas! We want to hear from you. Call us at (267) 338-4495 or at whitecanesconnect@gmail.com. Follow White Canes Connect Find out why White Canes Connect is currently ranked at #13 of the 100 Best Visually Impaired Podcast. Find the show on: Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/white-canes-connect/id1592248709  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1YDQSJqpoteGb1UMPwRSuI  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@pablindpodcast 

Sometime ago I had the pleasure to have as a guest a gentleman named Rob Wentz. Rob appeared in episode 212 on March 8, 2024. Recently Rob introduced me to a man he described as amazing and definitely unstoppable. That introduction led to me having the opportunity to have today, Ken Kunken, the man Rob introduced me to. Ken's story is atypical to most. He had a pretty normal childhood until he went to Cornell. Rob was pretty short, but he loved all things sports and active. In his junior year he participated in a lightweight football game against Columbia University. On a kickoff he tackled an opponent but broke his neck in the process. Immediately he became a quadriplegic from the shoulders down. As he tells us, his days of physical activity and sports came to an abrupt end.   I asked Ken how he dealt with his injury. As he tells me, his family rallied around him and told him they were all there to help with whatever he needed to continue in school and to move on with his life. They were true to their word and Ken did continue to attend school after nine months of hospitalization. He secured a bachelor's degree in industrial engineering. He went on to get a Master's degree from Cornell in Industrial Engineering and then a second Master's degree this time from Columbia University in Psychology as he decided he really wanted to “help people especially those with serious disabilities” rather than continuing in the Civil Engineering arena. Ken then secured a job that led to him becoming a successful rehabilitation counselor in New York.   Ken wasn't done growing nor exploring. After two years working in the rehabilitation field through circumstances and advice from others, he went to Hofstra school of law where he obtained a Juris Doctor degree in 1982. He then went to work in the office of a district attorney where, over 40 years he progressed and grew in stature and rank.   Ken tells us how his life changed over time and through the many jobs and opportunities he decided to take. Twenty-two years ago, he married Anna. They ended up having triplet boys who now all are in school at the age of Twenty.   Ken is as unstoppable as it gets. He refused to back down from challenges. He is now retired and loving the opportunity to be with his family and help others by telling his story.     About the Guest:   In 1970, while a junior in Cornell University's College of Engineering, Ken Kunken broke his neck making a tackle on a kick-off in a lightweight football game against Columbia University. Ken sustained a spinal cord injury at the C 4-5 level, rendering him a quadriplegic, almost totally paralyzed from the shoulders down. Ken spent more than 9 months in various hospitals and rehabilitation facilities. While still a patient, Ken testified before a United States Senate Sub-Committee on Health Care, chaired by Senator Edward Kennedy. In 1971, almost 20 years before the Americans with Disabilities Act, Ken returned to the Cornell campus, where he completed his undergraduate degree in Industrial Engineering. Ken estimates that he had to be pulled up or bounced down close to 100 steps just to attend his first day of classes.   Ken is the first quadriplegic to graduate from Cornell University. Upon graduation, Ken decided to change his career goal. He wanted to work with and help people, particularly those with disabilities. Ken went on to earn a Master of Arts degree at Cornell in education and a Master of Education degree at Columbia University in psychology. Ken is the first quadriplegic to earn a graduate degree from Cornell University. In 1977, Ken was hired by Abilities Inc. in Albertson, NY to be its College Work Orientation Program Coordinator. Ken coordinated a program which provided educationally related work experiences for severely disabled college students. He also maintained a vocational counseling caseload of more than 20 severely disabled individuals.   While working at the Center, Ken became a nationally certified rehabilitation counselor and made numerous public presentations on non-discrimination, affirmative action and employment of the disabled. In 1977, Ken was named the Long Island Rehabilitation Associations “Rehabilitant of the Year” and in 1979 Ken was the subject of one of the Reverend Norman Vincent Peale's nationally syndicated radio broadcasts “The American Character”. Wanting to accomplish still more, Ken enrolled in Hofstra University's School of Law, where he earned a Juris Doctor degree in 1982. Ken then went to work as an assistant district attorney in Nassau County, Long Island.   Ken was promoted a number of times during his more than 40 years with the District Attorney's Office, eventually becoming one of the Deputy Bureau Chiefs of the County Court Trial Bureau, where he helped supervise more than 20 other assistant district attorneys. In addition, over his years working in the Office, Ken supervised more than 50 student interns.   In 1996 Ken received the Honorable Thomas E. Ryan, Jr. Award presented by the Court Officers Benevolent Association of Nassau County for outstanding and dedicated service as an Assistant District Attorney. In 1999, Ken was awarded the George M. Estabrook Distinguished Service Award presented by the Hofstra Alumni Association, Inc. Beginning in 2005, for nine consecutive years, “The Ken Kunken Most Valuable Player Award” was presented annually by The Adirondack Trust Allegiance Bowl in Saratoga Springs, NY, in recognition of Ken's personal accomplishments, contributions to society and extraordinary courage.   In 2009, Ken became a member of the Board of Directors of Abilities Inc., and in 2017 he became a member of the Board of Directors for the parent company of Abilities Inc., the Viscardi Center.   In 2020, Ken was inducted into “The Susan M. Daniels Disability Mentoring Hall of Fame,” as a member of the class of 2019.   In December 2023, “The Kenneth J. Kunken Award” was presented by the Nassau County District Attorney's Office, for the first time, to an outstanding Nassau County Assistant District Attorney who personifies Ken's unique spirit and love of trial work, as well as his commitment and dedication, loyalty to his colleagues and his devotion to doing justice. The Award will be presented annually.   In March 2024, Ken was named one of the Long Island Business News Influencers in Law. Ken retired from full-time employment in 2016, but continued to work with the District Attorney's Office for the next eight years in a part time capacity, providing continuing legal education lectures and litigation guidance.   For years, Ken has tried to inspire people to do more with their lives. In October 2023, Ken's memoir “I Dream of Things That Never Were: The Ken Kunken Story” was published. In 2003 Ken married Anna and in 2005 they became the proud parents of triplet boys: Joey, Jimmy and Timmy. On June 23, 2023 the triplets graduated from Oceanside High School, fifty-five years after Ken had graduated from the same school. Ways to connect with Ken:   https://www.facebook.com/ken.kunken https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61566473121422 https://www.instagram.com/ken.kunken/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/kenneth-j-kunken-b4b0a9a8/ https://www.youtube.com/@Ken.Kunken https://bsky.app/profile/kenkunken.bsky.social   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hello once again, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I am your host, Michael hingson, and today we have a fascinating guest, I believe. Anyway, his name is Ken. Kuan, kunken. Am I pronouncing that right? Yes, you are. Oh, good. And Ken, in 1970 underwent a problem when he was playing football and doing a tackle on a kickoff. Namely, he broke his neck and became a quadriplegic, basically from the shoulders down. I'm sort of familiar with the concept, because my wife, from birth was in a wheelchair. She was a paraplegic, paralyzed from the t3 vertebrae down, which was like right below the breast, so she was able to transfer and so on. So not quite the same, but a lot of the same issues, of course, and we're going to talk about that basically, because when you're in a wheelchair, like a lot of other kinds of disabilities, society doesn't tend to do all they should to accommodate. And I can, can make that case very well. Most people are light dependent, and we have provided reasonable accommodations for them by providing light bulbs and light on demand wherever they go, wherever they are, whatever they do, while at the same time for people who are blind, we don't get the same degree of access without pushing a lot harder. And people in wheelchairs, of course, have all sorts of physical issues as well, such as stairs and no ramps and other things like that. And I know that Ken's going to talk some about that from university days and my wife Karen face some of the same things. But anyway, we'll get to it all. Ken, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. And I think your wife, Anna is visiting with us also, right, right? Thank you. Michael, so Anna, welcome as well. Thank you so Ken. Why don't we start if we could by you telling us sort of about the early Ken, growing up and all that from being a child, and tell us a little bit about you.   Ken Kunken ** 03:40 Okay, well, if you're going back to my childhood area, Yeah, it sure is. It's quite a while ago, but I was born in 1950 and that happened to be in the midst of the polio epidemic, and unfortunately, my mother contracted polio and died when I was less than one month old. So I have an older brother, Steve, who's two years older than me, and my father brother and I ended up moving in with my grandparents for a few years before my father remarried when I was four years old. A long shot. But what's your birth date? Right? My birth date is July 15, 1950 on   Michael Hingson ** 04:23 February 24 1950 So, okay, was was just kind of hoping there was the possibility, right? Anyway, go ahead.   Ken Kunken ** 04:30 So, um, during my father's second marriage, that's when my sister Merrill was born. She's 10 years younger than I am, but unfortunately, that was not a happy marriage, and it ended in a divorce. And when I was 18, my father married for the third time. So you know, growing up in a household with a number of individuals seemingly coming and going was a little different than most people's   Michael Hingson ** 04:57 households when they were growing up. How. Was that for you?   Ken Kunken ** 05:01 Well, you know, it was nice in the sense that I got involved with a lot of different family members in my extended family. I'm very close, growing up with my grandparents, with aunts, uncles, cousins, as well as my sister and brother. And you know, I had the opportunity to interact with a lot of different people. It was difficult during my father's second marriage, because it was not a happy marriage, and, you know, it worked out in everybody's best interest when that ended in divorce. But I look back at my childhood, and I just basically call it as a very happy childhood?   Michael Hingson ** 05:42 Oh, good. Well, so no real major traumas, certainly differences, but no real harrowing kinds of things that just threw you into a complete topsy turvy at least as far as you're concerned, right? Yeah. Well, then you decided to go to Cornell, as I recall, and I know Cornell has a, I think it's a master's program, but an advanced program in hospitality. So did they feed you well at Cornell?   Ken Kunken ** 06:13 Yes, they had a very good system and fed us very well. And they have a program in hotel management, right, which I was not involved in, but there was a lot of good food at Cornell when we were there.   Michael Hingson ** 06:28 Well, that's that's always important, you know, you got to have good food at UC Irvine. We were okay. Food wise. I was on the food committee for the dorms, actually, and the food was all right, but when they had steak night that they always made a big deal about the steak was usually pretty tough, and so we we had sometimes that the food wasn't great, but they had a great soft serve ice cream machine, so lot of people took advantage of that. But anyway, so when you were at Cornell, you played football,   Ken Kunken ** 07:01 right? I was on their lightweight football team. It's for people that were smaller than the heavyweight team. When I was playing, you had to weigh 154 pounds or less two days before the game. So most of the people had played on their high school teams was too small to play on the varsity college team, but it was a varsity sport. Most of the people were very good athletes and very fast, and it was very competitive sport.   Michael Hingson ** 07:35 So tell us about that and what happened.   Ken Kunken ** 07:38 Well, during my junior year, I was injured making a tackle on a kickoff in a game against Columbia University, and when I tackled the ball carrier, I broke my neck and damaged my spinal cord, and as a result, I'm a quadriplegic. I'm almost totally paralyzed from the shoulders down,   Michael Hingson ** 08:01 and so, what kind of effect? Well, that clearly that that was pretty bad news and so on. So what kind of effect did that have on you, and how did that shape what you did going forward?   Ken Kunken ** 08:15 Oh, it totally changed my perspective on everything about myself. I mean, growing up, my life seemed to center around sports. In high school, I played on the varsity football team. I wrestled on the varsity wrestling team. I played on four different intramural softball teams. I worked on the summer as a lifeguard. Everything in my life revolved around athletics and being physically active. Now, suddenly, I couldn't be physically active at all. In fact, I am totally sedentary, sitting in a wheelchair, and I need assistance with all my activities of daily living now.   Michael Hingson ** 08:54 So what did you do when the injury happened and so on? So how did you deal with all of that?   Ken Kunken ** 09:01 Well, it was a really difficult adjustment to make. I mean, suddenly I became dependent on everybody around me, because there was not one thing I could do for myself. So it was very difficult knowing that now not only was I dependent on others, but I had to be more outgoing to be able to have asked for help when I needed it, which was difficult for me, because I had always considered myself a bit of shy person, a bit of an introvert, and now I needed to be more vocal with respect to all of my needs. So I swear, go ahead. Well, I spent the next nine months and 20 days in various hospitals and rehabilitation centers, and it was really, really difficult getting used to my new physical condition.   Michael Hingson ** 09:52 But at the same time, you could have taken the position that you just hated yourself and you just wanted to I. Make life end and so on. And it doesn't sound like that was the approach that you took.   Ken Kunken ** 10:04 Mike, I was so fortunate that I had a very supportive family who were with me and helped me every step of the way. In fact, they basically assured me that they would act as my arms and legs to make sure I could still do everything I wanted to do in my life   Michael Hingson ** 10:22 doesn't get much better than that, having a real supportive village, if you will.   Ken Kunken ** 10:27 Right? I was so fortunate, and you know, I think that helped me be able to do many things in my life that most people thought would not be possible for someone in my condition, and I was able to do it because of the help I received from my family.   Michael Hingson ** 10:44 So what did you major in at Cornell? Let's say, before the injury.   Ken Kunken ** 10:50 I before my injury, I was majoring in industrial engineering, okay? And you know, after my injury, I went back to school and continued my studies in industrial engineering and actually obtained my degree, a Bachelor of Science in industrial engineering.   Michael Hingson ** 11:08 Now, what primarily is industrial engineering?   Ken Kunken ** 11:12 Well, you know, it's kind of a technical aspect of dealing with men, material, machines, and, you know, most likely working at a business where there are a lot of different people working there, where you would try and find out what the best way of people to operate, whether it be in a factory or just in a large business setting, when you're dealing with technical aspects of the job. But I never actually worked as an engineer, because, following my degree, based on the recommendation of one of my psychology professors, I stayed at Cornell and pursued a career in counseling. And I find that a lot more suitable to not only my physical condition, but what I really wanted to do. Because, following my injury, I knew that what I really wanted to do was to devote my life and career to helping others.   Michael Hingson ** 12:08 So you very well could have made the same switch and made the same choices, even if you hadn't undergone the accident,   Ken Kunken ** 12:17 absolutely and hopefully, I would have, because I found it a lot more enjoyable, and I believe it taught me a lot about dealing with people, and it made me feel very good about myself to know that I was still in a position, despite my disability, where I could help others.   Michael Hingson ** 12:40 So you stayed at Cornell and got that master's degree in counseling, which, which really gave you that opportunity. What did you do after that?   Ken Kunken ** 12:50 Well, to increase my counseling credentials, I then went to Columbia University, where I obtained my second degree. This one was also in counseling. That degree was in psychological counseling and rehabilitation, and I decided to look for a job in the rehabilitation counseling field. And now that I had two degrees from Cornell and one from Columbia, three prestigious Ivy League degrees, two master's degrees, I didn't think I'd have much difficulty securing employment, but to my dismay, no one would hire me. This was in the mid 70s, and everyone seemed to feel I was just too disabled to work.   Michael Hingson ** 13:32 Now, why did you go to Columbia to get your second degree, your masters in rehabilitation,   Ken Kunken ** 13:39 you know? And incidentally, it that was the school I actually was injured against during the football   Michael Hingson ** 13:44 I know that's why I asked the enemy, right?   Ken Kunken ** 13:47 Yeah, but I actually applied there for my doctorate, doctorate in counseling psychology. And initially I didn't get into that program, but they invited me to participate in their master's program, and said that they would reconsider my application when I finished that degree. Now, I thought that was a special letter that I got from them because of my injury, and I thought they just wanted to see me that I could do graduate work. As it turned out, virtually everybody that applied for that program got a similar letter, and when I first met with my advisor there at Columbia, he said, you know, if you didn't get in the first time, you're probably not going to get in even when you graduate. So since I had nothing else to do at that point, I enrolled in the master's program, and I completed my second master's degree. And you know, at the time, even my advisor was pessimistic about my work prospects, wow, just because of my ability, because of my disability, and despite. Fact that here they were training people to be rehabilitation counselors and encouraging people to go into that field, they felt that due to my disability, I would still have a very difficult time gaining employment,   Michael Hingson ** 15:14 which is as ironic as it gets,   Ken Kunken ** 15:17 absolutely, absolutely and I was just very fortunate that there was a facility on Long Island called abilities Incorporated, which was part of what was then called the Human Resources Center. Is now called the Viscardi Center, after its founder, Dr Henry Viscardi, Jr, and they hired me to work as a vocational rehabilitation counselor for other individuals who had severe disabilities.   Michael Hingson ** 15:46 I'm a little bit familiar with the buscardi Center, and have found them to be very open minded in the way they operate.   Ken Kunken ** 15:54 They were terrific, absolutely terrific. And I was so fortunate to get involved with them, to be hired, to work for them, and, you know, to be associated with all the fine work they were doing it on behalf of helping other individuals with disabilities.   Michael Hingson ** 16:13 So was it primarily paraplegics and quadriplegics and so on, or did they do blind people and other disabilities as well.   Ken Kunken ** 16:21 They did a lot of different disabilities, but they did not work with people that were visually impaired. For that in New York state, there was a special agency called the commission for the visually handicapped that helped people with visual impairments, but we dealt with all different types of disabilities, whether people were hearing impaired or had not just spinal cord injuries, but other disabilities, either from birth or disabilities that they developed through diseases. And as it turned out, I was probably one of the most severely disabled of the people that I dealt with.   Michael Hingson ** 17:02 Well, but you were also, by any definition, a good role model.   Ken Kunken ** 17:06 Well, I was fortunate that I was able to help a lot of different people, and I felt that when they looked at me and saw that I was able to work despite my disability, I know it encouraged them to do their best to go out and get a job themselves.   Michael Hingson ** 17:24 And of course, it really ultimately comes down to attitude. And for you, having a positive attitude had to really help a great deal.   Ken Kunken ** 17:34 I think it made all the difference in the world. And I was very fortunate that it was my family that instilled that positive attitude in me, and they gave me so much help that after a while, I thought I'd be letting them down if I didn't do everything I could do to make something out of my life.   Michael Hingson ** 17:53 So what did you do? Well, not only   Ken Kunken ** 17:57 did I go back to school and complete my education, but I went to work and, you know, got up early every day, and with the aid of a personal care attendant, I was able to go to work and function as a vocational counselor and help others in trying to achieve their goals.   Michael Hingson ** 18:17 Now, were you going to school while you were doing some of this?   Ken Kunken ** 18:20 No, I finished my second okay, and now was able to work full time.   Michael Hingson ** 18:27 Okay, so you did that, and how long did you work there?   Ken Kunken ** 18:32 Well, I worked there for a little over two years, and you know, my duties and responsibilities kept expanding while I was there, and one of my duties was to speak at conferences before groups and organizations concerning affirmative action and non discrimination for people with disabilities. And often after my talks, I would be asked questions, and while I would do my best to respond appropriately, I was always careful to caution the question is that they should really consult with a lawyer about their concerns. And I guess it didn't take long before I started to think, you know, there's no reason why I couldn't become that lawyer. So after a little over two years, I decided to leave the job, and I went to Hofstra University School of Law.   Michael Hingson ** 19:20 So now what? What year was this?   Ken Kunken ** 19:24 I left the job. I started the job in 77 I left in 79 when I started law school.   Michael Hingson ** 19:32 Okay, so you went to Hofstra,   Ken Kunken ** 19:35 right? And while I was at Hofstra through my brother's suggestion. My brother was working as a public defender at the time, he suggested I do an internship at the district attorney's office. So after my second year of law school, I did an internship there during the summer, and I found a new way. I could help people and serve the community as a whole, and I really enjoyed that work. So when I was in my third year of law school, I applied for a full time position with the district attorney's office, and I was very fortunate that the district attorney was a very progressive, self confident individual who based his hiring decision on my abilities rather than my disability.   Michael Hingson ** 20:27 Wow, that had to be, especially back then, a fairly, as you said, progressive, but an amazing thing to do, because even today, there are so many times that we get challenges and too many things thrown in our way, but you had someone who really thought enough of you and obviously decided that your abilities were such on the job that you could do   Ken Kunken ** 20:51 it. I was very fortunate to have come in contact with the district attorney at the time. His name was Dennis Dillon, and he seemed to know that when I'd go to court, a jury was not going to base its verdict on my inability to walk, but rather on my skill and competence as an attorney. And thanks to the training and guidance I received in the office, I became a very confident and competent, skilled trial attorney   Michael Hingson ** 21:22 well, and it had to be the way you projected yourself that would convince a jury to decide cases in the right way. So again, kudos to you.   Ken Kunken ** 21:33 Thank you. Well, I certainly did my best to do that, and at the time that I applied for this job, I didn't know of any quadriplegics that were trial attorneys. May have been some, but I didn't know of any. Certainly there were none on Long Island, and certainly no assistant district attorneys at the time that I knew of who were quadriplegics.   Michael Hingson ** 21:59 Now, of course, the question that comes to mind is, so was the office accessible?   Ken Kunken ** 22:05 No question. And you know, let me just go further by telling you that my first day in court, I couldn't even fit through the swinging doorways in the courtroom. They were too narrow to let me get through to get to the prosecutor's table, because my electric wheelchair was too wide.   Michael Hingson ** 22:24 What did you do? Or what happened?   Ken Kunken ** 22:27 Well, eventually they had to take off the swinging doorways and the screws and bolts that kept them in place, but usually I had to go very roundabout on a long way to get to the back of each courtroom and go through the back, which was really difficult. And one of my assignments happened to be to our traffic court Bureau, which was in a neighboring building on the second floor, and unfortunately, there the elevator was broken. So after three days, I was actually received my first promotion, because they didn't know when it would be fixed. But eventually I was able to get into court, and I did a lot of litigation while I was   Michael Hingson ** 23:10 there. How did judges react to all of this?   Ken Kunken ** 23:15 You know, it was very new to them as well. And you know, there are times when you needed to approach the bench and talk very quietly, you know, to so the jury wouldn't hear you, and it was very difficult, because benches are elevated, yeah. And I had difficulty approaching the bench or even turning my head side enough to look up at the judges and then for them to hear me. And sometimes they would have to get off the bench, and, you know, meet me on the side of the courtroom to have conferences and but for the most part, I thought they were very supportive. I thought they appreciated the hard work that I was doing, and I think they tried to be accommodating when they could.   Michael Hingson ** 23:58 Did you ever encounter any that just were totally intolerant of all of it,   Ken Kunken ** 24:02 sure, you know, many of them were very impatient. Some of them had difficulty hearing and when I was trying to look up and talk to them without the jury hearing, some of them had trouble hearing me because, you know, they were much higher up than I was in my wheelchair. So it was very challenging.   Michael Hingson ** 24:23 I was involved in a lawsuit against an airline because they wouldn't allow me and my guide dog to sit where we wanted to sit on the airplane, which was in direct violation of even the rules of the airline. And when it went to court, the judge who was assigned it was a federal judge, and he was like 80, and he just couldn't hear anything at all. It was, it was really too bad. And of course, my and my wife was was with me, and of course, in her chair, so she wasn't sitting in a regular row. And he even grilled her, what are you doing? Why aren't you sitting in a row? And she said, I'm in a wheelchair. Oh, yeah, it's amazing that hopefully we are we have progressed a little bit from a lot of that the last thing. So, yeah, the lawsuit was 1985 so it was a long time ago, and hopefully we have progressed some. But still, there are way too many people who don't get it, and who don't understand nearly as much as they should, and don't internalize that maybe we're not all the same, and we can't necessarily do everything exactly the same every single time,   Ken Kunken ** 25:35 right? And you know, I had the added misfortune of having my injury 20 years before the Americans with Disabilities Act was passed, and that made an enormous difference for not just people in wheelchairs, but people with all different types of disabilities.   Michael Hingson ** 25:53 So how did you, in general, learn to deal with people's perceptions of you, rather than the reality? Well, that is a lot. Yeah, there are lots of perceptions, right?   Ken Kunken ** 26:07 You know, many people think that because you have a physical disability, that you must also have an intellectual disability. And people would often come into my room and wherever I was, whether it was when I was first in the hospital or later at the office and speak to the person next to me and ask them questions about me, as if I couldn't speak for myself, yeah, even as if I wasn't even there. And it took a while for me to be more outgoing and convince people that, yes, they can deal with me. You know, I can still talk and think. And I think whenever a jury came into the courtroom for the first time, I think they were very surprised to see the prosecutor as somebody with a disability who was sitting in an electric wheelchair.   Michael Hingson ** 26:56 I know once we went to a restaurant, and of course, having a family with two people in two different disabilities, went to this restaurant, and we were waiting to be seated, and finally, Karen said the hostess is just staring at us. She doesn't know who to talk to, because I'm not making eye contact, necessarily. And Karen, sitting in her chair is way lower. And so Karen just said to me, Well, this lady doesn't know who to talk to. So I said, Well, maybe we can get her to just ask us what what we want and what help we need. Are carrying on the conversation. Got this, this nice lady to recognize. Oh, you know, I can talk with them. And so she said, Well, how can I help you? And we both kind of said we'd like to sit and have breakfast. Oh, okay, and it went well from there. But it is, it is a challenge, and people have crazy perceptions, I know, going down the stairs at the World Trade Center on September 11, when I encountered the firefighters coming up for a while, they blocked me from going because they decided that I needed help, and they would, they would ask me questions, like, we're going to help you. Is that okay? And I said, No, it's not. But they always talked loud, because if you're blind, you obviously can't hear either, right? And it was difficult to get them to deal with all of that. And finally, I had to just say, Look, I got my friend David over here, who can see we're working together. We're fine, and they let us go because I had a sighted person with me, not that I had the ability to go downstairs, even though I had to help keep David focused sometimes, and also, there's no magic for a blind person to go downstairs. You know, you go down the stairs, you hold the rail, you turn left there, in this case, and you go down the next batch of stairs. But people don't recognize that. Maybe there are techniques that we use to deal with the same things that they deal with, only in a different way.   Ken Kunken ** 29:03 Absolutely, and that applies to work as well. I mean, people assume that if you can't do a job the way most people seem to do it, who don't have a disability, they automatically assume you're not going to be able to function at all at the job. Yeah, and a lot of times, it takes a lot of convincing to show people that there are other ways of approaching a problem and handling a work situation.   Michael Hingson ** 29:27 One of the common things that we as blind people face, and it happens in schools and so on, is, Oh, you don't need to learn braille that's outmoded. You can listen to books that are computer generated or recorded and so on. And the reality is, no we need to learn braille for the same reason the sighted people learn to read print, and that is, it's all about learning to spell. It's learning about sentence structure and so on, and it's learning about having better ways to be able to truly enter. Interact with the text as I tell people, I don't care what anyone says, you will not learn physics as well from recordings as you can by truly having access to everything in a braille book, because you can refer back easier, and they've done some improvements in recording, but it's still not the same as what you get when you do Braille, which is the same thing for you reading print, or any other sighted person reading print. You read that print because there are various reasons why you need to do that, as opposed to learning how to just listen to books recorded anyway,   Ken Kunken ** 30:36 right? Well, I had the added misfortune of being injured well before they had laptop   Michael Hingson ** 30:41 computers. Yeah, me too. Well, I yeah, not. I wasn't injured, but yeah,   Ken Kunken ** 30:46 right. So trying to do my schoolwork or later work at a job, you know, it posed even more challenges. Now, of course, having ebooks and being able to use a computer, it's made a big difference, not just for me, but for many individuals.   Michael Hingson ** 31:04 Sure, do you use like programs like Dragon Naturally Speaking to interact with the computer?   Ken Kunken ** 31:10 You know, I tried that, and I had a lot of difficulty with it. I know you need to train it. And when I first tried it, which was in its infancy, it just wasn't responding well to my voice, so I don't use that. I've been fortunate with that with advancements in wheelchairs, my wheelchair now has a Bluetooth device connected to my joystick, and I could actually move my left arm a little bit where I could work the joystick and move the mouse on my computer, moving my joystick. You   Michael Hingson ** 31:45 really might want to look into dragon again. It is just so incredibly different than it was years ago. I remember when Dragon Dictate first came out, and all of the challenges of it, but they have done so much work in developing the language models that it's it's a whole lot better than it used to be, and, yeah, you have to train it. But training isn't all that hard nowadays, even by comparison to what it was, and it gives you a lot of flexibility. And I am absolutely certain it would recognize your voice without any difficulty?   Ken Kunken ** 32:22 Well, it's good to hear that they've made those advancements,   Michael Hingson ** 32:26 and it's not nearly as expensive as it used to be, either. Well, that's good   Ken Kunken ** 32:30 to hear. I know when I first tried it, it was incredibly frustrating, yeah, because it wasn't responding well to my voice, and   Michael Hingson ** 32:38 it was like $1,500 as I recall, it was pretty expensive right now, it's maybe two or $300 and there's also a legal version of it and other things like that. Yeah, you really ought to try it. You might find it makes a big difference. It's worth exploring Anyway, okay, but be that as it may, so you you dealt with people's perceptions, and how did you, as you continue to encounter how people behave towards you, how did you keep from allowing that to embitter you or driving you crazy?   Ken Kunken ** 33:15 Well, you know, certainly at work, I needed to go in a jacket and tie, and I found that when you're wearing a jacket and tie, many people treated you differently than when you're just wearing street clothes. So I think that certainly helped that work. But I later became a supervisor in the district attorney's office, and people saw that, you know, not only could they talk with me on an intellectual level, but they saw I was supervising other assistant district attorneys, and I think that convinced a lot of people pretty quickly that I knew what I was doing and that they should treat me no different than they would any other lawyer, Assistant District Attorney.   Michael Hingson ** 33:59 Yeah, well, and it is projecting that confidence in a in a positive way that does make such a big difference,   Ken Kunken ** 34:08 absolutely. And I think when people saw me at work, one of the things that I appreciated was I never even needed to mention again that somebody with a disability could work, and not just at an entry level position, that a very responsible position. I was convinced them, just by showing them, without ever having to mention that somebody with a disability could do this kind of work.   Michael Hingson ** 34:35 I never bring it up unless it comes up, and a lot of times, especially when talking on the phone and so on, it never comes up. I've had times when people eventually met me, and of course, were themselves, somewhat amazed. I'm a blind person and all that I said, nothing's changed here, folks. The reality is that the same guy I was when you were just talking to me on the phone. So let's move forward. Word. And mostly people got it and and dealt with it very well.   Ken Kunken ** 35:08 Well, I used to have a lot of people, when they meet me for the first time, were very surprised to see that I was in a wheelchair. I never would say, Boy, you didn't sound like you were disabled. Yeah, right. And I think they were very surprised when they met me.   Michael Hingson ** 35:23 I've had some people who've said that to me, Well, you didn't sound blind on the telephone. And so depending on how snarky I feel or not, I might say, Well, what does a blind person sound like? And that generally tends to stop them, because the reality is, what does a blind person sound like? It doesn't mean anything at all, and it's really their attitudes that need to change. And I know as a keynote speaker for the last 23 years, just by doing the things that I do, and talking and communicating with people, it is also all about helping to change attitudes, which is a lot of fun.   Ken Kunken ** 36:03 You know, Michael, when I first went back to college, I was approached by a student on campus, and when he asked if I was Ken kunken, and I responded that I was, he asked, aren't you supposed to be in the hospital? Now, you know, I was very tempted to say yes, but I escaped. Please don't tell anyone. But you know, it even took a while to just show people, somebody with a disability does not need to be permanently in a rehab facility or a hospital or staying at home with their families, that there's an awful lot somebody could do and to be seen out in public and show people that you can work, you can go to school, you can do basically what everybody else does once you're given the opportunity.   Michael Hingson ** 36:55 Of course, being spiteful, my response would have been, well, yeah, I should still be in the hospital doing brain surgery, but I decided that I didn't want to be a doctor because I didn't have any patients, so I decided to take a different career, right? Oh, people, yeah, what do you do? And we all face it, but the reality is, and I believe very firmly and have have thought this way for a long time, that like it or not, we're teachers, and we do need to teach people, and we need to take that role on, and it can be difficult sometimes, because you can lose patience, depending on what kind of questions people ask and so on. But the reality is, we are teachers, and our job is to teach, and we can make that a very fun thing to do as we move forward, too.   Ken Kunken ** 37:44 You know, Michael, I found most people really want to be helpful. Yeah, a lot of times they don't know how to be helpful or how to go about it, or what to say or what to do, but most people are really good people that want to help. And you know, the more they come in contact with somebody with a disability, the more comfortable they will feel   Michael Hingson ** 38:04 right, and they'll learn to ask if you want help, and they won't make the assumption, which is, of course, the whole point.   Ken Kunken ** 38:14 You know, Michael, when you leave the job the district attorney's office, you would go through what they call an exit interview, where they would ask you what you thought was the best part of the job, what you thought could be improved. And I'm so happy and proud to say that I was told that a number of assistant district attorneys said that one of the best parts of their job was meeting and getting to know and working with me. And the reason why I wanted to highlight that was I know they weren't talking about me being Ken kunken, but me being somebody with a disability. Because unless they had a close relative with a disability, people rarely came in daily contact with somebody with a disability, and for them, it was often a revelation that they found helped motivate and inspire them to work harder in their job, and they were very appreciative of that,   Michael Hingson ** 39:12 but they also learned that the disability wasn't what defined you. What defined you was you and your personality and what you did not necessarily exactly how you   Ken Kunken ** 39:24 did it, absolutely. And I think it was also a revelation that working with me did not involve additional work for them, right? I was able to carry my own weight, and often was more productive than many of the people I was working with. Right?   Michael Hingson ** 39:42 Well, and I think that's a very crucial point about the whole thing. When you became a lawyer, did that change your view of yourself? I mean, I know it was a kind of an evolution that got you to being a lawyer. But how did becoming a lawyer and when go. Answer, and getting the law degree and then working in a law office. How did that change your perceptions and your attitudes and outlook?   Ken Kunken ** 40:06 You know, it really changed it a great deal, because I had people look at me with a very different eye when they were looking at me. You know, I enjoyed my work as a vocational rehabilitation counselor very much. And I encourage people to do that work. But I felt that there were people that looked at me and thought, you know, he has a disability. Maybe he could only work with other people had disabilities. And I was very proud of the fact that when I became a lawyer, I was working with very few people that had disabilities. Most of them were able bodied. And I wanted to show people that you're not limited in any way with who you're going to work with and what you could do. And I think it's so important for people to keep their perceptions high, their expectations high when they're dealing with individuals, because just because somebody has a disability does not mean they cannot perform and do as much as virtually anybody else on the job   Michael Hingson ** 41:14 well, and you clearly continue to have high expectations of and for you, but also I would suspect that the result was you had high expectations for those around you as well. You helped them shape what they did, and by virtue of the way you functioned, you helped them become better people as well.   Ken Kunken ** 41:38 Well, I certainly tried to and from the feedback that I've gotten from many of the people I worked with, that seemed to be the case, and I'm very proud of that. In fact, I might add Michael that two years ago, the district attorney, now her name is Ann Donnelly, actually started an award in the district attorney's office that's given out annually that they named the Kenneth J kunken award. They named it for me because they wanted to recognize and honor the outstanding Assistant District Attorney each year who displayed the work ethic and the loyalty and devotion to the office as well the person in the wheelchair, right? And I'm very proud of that,   Michael Hingson ** 42:25 but I will bet, and I'm not trying to mitigate it, but I will bet that mostly that award came about because of the things that you did and your work ethic, and that the wheelchair aspect of it was really somewhat second nature. And far down the list,   Ken Kunken ** 42:41 I'm very proud of the fact that that seems to be the case and and one of the aspects of that award was they talked about the effect that I had on my colleagues, and the beneficial effect that that was Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:56 because the reality is, it ultimately comes down to who you are and what you do and and I'm not, and again, I'm not mitigating being in a wheelchair or having any kind of disability, but I really, truly believe ultimately the disability isn't what is not what defines us, it's how we are and what we do and how we behave in society that really will be what helps us make a mark on whatever we're involved with,   Ken Kunken ** 43:28 right? And I think for some, as I say, it was a revelation to see that somebody with a disability had the same needs, wants and desires as everybody else. We were certainly no different with respect to that right.   Michael Hingson ** 43:43 So how long did you work as a lawyer and in the district attorney's office?   Ken Kunken ** 43:49 Well, I worked there full time for more than 33 years, and then I worked there in a part time capacity for an additional eight years. So all told, more than 40 years I worked there, and in fact, I'm one of the longest serving Nassau County assistant district attorneys that they've ever had.   Michael Hingson ** 44:09 Now, why did you go back to part time after 33 years?   Ken Kunken ** 44:15 Well, there are a number of reasons. You know, I I thought that due to some health issues, I wanted to play it safe and make sure that I locked in my pension, because I thought there would be a bigger payout if I retired while I was still working than if I died while I was working on the job. As it turned out, my health issue seemed to resolve itself, but I decided that, you know, retiring, when I did, gave me some more time to spend at home with my family, and I really appreciated being able to do that.   Michael Hingson ** 44:53 That's a very admirable thing. Can't complain about that. So what keeps you going?   Ken Kunken ** 45:00 What keeps me going now is my family. Just so your listeners know, I'm married to the wonderful woman that's actually sitting to my right right now. My name is Anna, and we're actually the parents of triplet sons. We have three incredible boys, Joseph, James and Timothy. They're now 20 years old, and they're currently sophomores at three separate colleges in upstate New York, and they're the light of my life. I couldn't be more proud. And they're what keeps me going these days.   Michael Hingson ** 45:33 What colleges?   Ken Kunken ** 45:36 Well, James is going to the State University of New York at Morrisville, where he's studying renewable energy. Timothy is pursuing a dual major at the SI Newhouse School of Communications in the Maxwell School of Public Policy at Syracuse University. And my son Joseph is actually attending my alma mater, Cornell University, where he's majoring in mechanical engineering.   Michael Hingson ** 46:06 And do they all go watch football games on the weekend? I mean, given the fact that least a couple of those are at schools with good football   Ken Kunken ** 46:13 teams, right? But you know what? They never wanted anything to do with football. But they are all physically active, in great shape, and in fact, all of them have pursued the martial arts, and all three of them are second degree black belts in Taekwondo. And they've all even worked as instructors in the Taekwondo studio here in Long Island.   Michael Hingson ** 46:35 So dad has to be careful, though they'll take you out, huh?   Ken Kunken ** 46:39 You bet. In fact, I've got my own three personal bodyguards when   Michael Hingson ** 46:43 I got right, you can't do better than that. And and Anna, which I'll bet is more formidable than all of them   Ken Kunken ** 46:53 on, is incredible. I mean, she is just a force that is unstoppable. She's incredible.   Michael Hingson ** 47:01 Well, that's cool all the way around, and it's, it's great that you, you have a good neighborhood around you to support you, and I think we all need that. That's that's pretty important to to deal with. So with your job and all that, now that you are retired, I don't know whether you have much stress in your life, but how do you deal with stress? And how does stress affect you and or does it make any difference with a disability?   Ken Kunken ** 47:30 It sure does. It's an interesting question, because before my injury, one of the ways I would deal with stress would be out of the football field, yeah, you know, being physically active, running into an individual, you know, to tackle or block, that was a great way to relieve some of my stress. Once I had my injury, I no longer had that outlet, so I had to find different ways of dealing with it. One of my ways was, you know, trying to sit outside and sit in the garden or by water and, you know, just enjoy nature and try and relax and clear my mind. But now my best stress relievers are my three children. I'm spending time with them, watching all that they're doing. I find that the best way of me to be able to relax and relieve any anxieties that I have?   Michael Hingson ** 48:23 Well, I think there's a lot of value in doing things that keep you calm and focused. I think that is the best way to deal with stress. All too often, we don't think or be introspective about ourselves and our lives, and we don't really step back and get rid of that stress mentally, and that's where it really all comes from. I mean, I know people have physical manifestations of stress and so on, but I would submit that typically, stress is so much more an emotional thing because we haven't learned how to deal with it, and you clearly have   Ken Kunken ** 49:02 it took a while, but yeah, now I have my family to help every step of the way, and that includes relieving the stress that I've under.   Michael Hingson ** 49:10 Yeah, and stress is important to get rid of and not have around. It will help you live a whole lot longer not to have stress I just went through a week ago and op was, you know, an operation to change a heart valve. And people keep asking me, well, Weren't you worried? Weren't you stressed over that? And my answer was, No, I had no control over it really happening to my knowledge, I don't think that I've been a very poor eater, and all of my arteries and everything were good. And so no, I wasn't stressed, even when I first learned that there was an issue and wasn't an emergency room for over 24 hours, mostly sitting around, I chose not to be stressed, and it was a choice. And so I just listened to things around me and became quite entertained at some of the people. People who were in the emergency room with me, but being stressed wasn't going to do anything to help the process at all. So I refuse to get stressed.   Ken Kunken ** 50:09 That's great. And you know, I think this finally retiring has helped me deal with stress as well, because working as an assistant district attorney, there can be a lot of stressful situations in the office, and it's, it's nice to finally be retired and be able to enjoy all of my activities outside of the office.   Michael Hingson ** 50:33 What would you say is probably the most stressful thing that you had to endure as an attorney? You were, I mean, you did this for 40 years, or almost 40 years? So what? Well, actually, yeah, for 40 years. So what would you say is the most stressful thing that you ever had to deal with?   Ken Kunken ** 50:50 Well, I had to rely on, you know, my memory, because it was difficult for me even turning pages of a book or pulling, you know, pieces of paper out of a file, and there was a lot of paperwork that you get to be familiar with, whether they be grand jury testimony or prior witness statements. And I had to rely a lot of my memory and through the help of student interns or paralegals or secretaries, and it was very difficult. And I might add, you know, just to give you one anecdote, one day after I had convicted a defendant of, you know, felony, you know, he was a person with a lot of prior involvement with the criminal justice system, and I was about to go down for his sentencing, he jumped in the elevator with me, and now we're alone in the elevator riding down, and here I am with this person that I convicted of a serious case, and I'm about to recommend that he go to an upstate prison. And he approaches me and says, I have a proposition for you. If you don't send me to jail, I'll agree to work as your personal care attendant for a year, which really struck me as odd. I mean, he must have thought that working for me for a year would be the equivalent of going to prison for a few years. But fortunately, the elevator door opened and I politely turned down his request and went to court, and he was sentenced to two to four years in an upstate prison.   Michael Hingson ** 52:28 Still was creative,   52:30 right?   Michael Hingson ** 52:33 So in all of your life and all the things you've done, what are you most proud   Ken Kunken ** 52:36 of, well, but definitely most proud of my family life? I mean, as I indicated, I'm married now, married for more than 21 years now, my three boys are sophomores in college and doing absolutely great, and make me proud every single day. But I'm proud of the fact that I was able to go back to school, complete my education and work at a job and earn a living where I was able to support myself and able to purchase a house and live now with my wife and children and lead as just about as normal a life as any other family would lead.   Michael Hingson ** 53:18 Now being married to Ana is that your first marriage? It sure is. So there we go. Well, I hear you and but you guys met late, and I'm going to step out on a limb and say it proves something that I've always felt, which is, you'll get married when the right person comes along, especially if you're mature enough to recognize it,   Ken Kunken ** 53:41 you're right. And I was very fortunate that the right person came along in my life, and we have a very happy marriage that I cannot picture life without him right now,   Michael Hingson ** 53:56 my wife and I got married when I was 32 she was 33 but we knew what we wanted in a partner, and when we first met each other, it just sort of clicked right from the beginning. We met in January of 1982 and in July, I asked her to marry me, and we got married in November of 1982 and so we were married for 40 years before she passed. And you know, there are always challenges, but, but you deal with it. So it must have been really an interesting time and an interesting life, suddenly discovering you have three boy triplets.   Ken Kunken ** 54:31 You know, it really was well, you know, when I decided to get married, she told me that she wanted to have my baby, and not just any baby my baby, she said she wanted to see a little pumpkin running around our home. And this really seemed impossible at the time. I had been paralyzed for more than 30 years, and I was already in my 50s, but we looked into various options, including in vitro fertilization and. And we're very excited, excited to learn we could still, I could still father a child. So we pursued it. And you know, through good fortune, good luck, and I guess somebody smiling on us from above, Anna became pregnant with triplets, and I couldn't be happier to have these three wonderful boys in my life.   Michael Hingson ** 55:21 So did becoming a father change you? Or how did you evolve? When that all happened,   Ken Kunken ** 55:26 it sure did. I mean, you know, it went from me being number one in honors life to suddenly being number four after all, three boys got the attention they needed, but it was wonderful for me to be able to help shape their lives and guide them so that they would develop the right character and values and learn the importance of helping others throughout their lives, which they do, and It's I think it's made me a better person, being able to help and guide them. That's cool.   Michael Hingson ** 56:07 Well, the the other thing I would ask is, if you had a chance to go back and talk to a younger Ken, what would you say? What would you teach them so that they would maybe make mistakes that you made?   Ken Kunken ** 56:18 Well, I'd say there's an awful lot you could still do in life, even without your physical movement, and sometimes it takes a lot of patience and a lot of self reflection, but to realize there's an awful lot you can do and that they need to keep their expectations high for themselves as well as for others, and to realize that just because something has not been done before doesn't mean they cannot do it now. They've got to find different ways of approaching problems and handling it and developing some self confidence in themselves and their ability to deal with difficult situations.   Michael Hingson ** 57:03 How did the Americans with Disabilities Act improve all that you did and make your life, especially on the job, better?   Ken Kunken ** 57:12 Well, it, you know, made facilities so much more accessible. When I first went back to college, there was not one ramp or curb cut on the entire campus. On my first day back in school, I had to be either pulled up or bounced down close to 100 steps just to attend my classes, and as I indicated, in the DAs office, I couldn't even fit through the swinging doorways to get in the courtroom. So it made it tremendously easier to not have to deal with all the physical challenges, but it also made it better for dealing with other people and their attitudes about dealing with people with disabilities, because thanks to the Americans with Disabilities Act, you see more people with disabilities out in public. So people are more used to seeing, dealing, interacting with people, and seeing what they can do and that they're just like everybody else. And as a result, people's attitudes have been changing, and I think that's helped me as well, in many different ways.   Michael Hingson ** 58:20 Cool, well, you have written a book about all of this. Tell me about the book.   Ken Kunken ** 58:27 Okay, I actually started writing a book when I was still in the rehab facility. Not long after I was hurt, a friend of my aunt Lorraine's by the name of Albert meglan visited me in the hospital and thought that one it may help me deal with my depression by talking about what I was going through, but also inform other individuals what a spinal cord injury was like and what's involved with rehabilitation. So he used to visit me in the rehab facility one day a week for a number of weeks for me to start writing a book about my experiences. And then when I went back to school, I started working on it on my own, but I would pick it up and stop and start and stop again over the course of 50 years. And then once I retired, I had more time to sit down with my wife, and I would dictate to her, and she would type it on her laptop computer until we finally finished my memoir, which is called I dream of things that never were, the Ken kunken story, and it's published by a company called 12 tables Press, and they could learn more about my book by going on my website, which is kenkunkin.com and I might add that where I got the title of my book was six months after my injury. I was asked to testify before a United States Health subcommittee chaired by Senate. Senator Edward Kennedy. And eight days after my testimony, Senator Kennedy sent me a glass paperweight in the mail that had an inscription on it that the senator said his late brother Robert Kennedy liked very much. And the inscription read, some men see things as they are and say, Why I dream of things that never were. And say, why not? And that's where I got the title of my book. I dream of things that never were.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:28 Yeah, that's cool. And where can people get the book?   Ken Kunken ** 1:00:35 Well, it's available on Amazon. It's also available at the Cornell bookstore, and if they go on my website, Ken kunken.com spellkin For me, please. It's K U N, as in Nancy. K e n that tells of a number of ways that they could purchase the book, both the hardcover book, it's also available as a Kindle version as an e book, and just recently, we put it out as an audio book as well. And they could learn all about it by going to the website, but certainly it's available on Amazon. If they wanted to order in bulk, they could contact my publisher directly, and he could help them fulfill that type of order. Cool.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:22 That is great. So now the real question is, are there any more books in Ken to come out?   Ken Kunken ** 1:01:28 Well, this book took me 50 years to I know you got to go a little bit faster. So no, I think I wrote down everything that I wanted to convey to people in that book, and now I'm actively just promoting the book like you. I've spoken at a number of different events as a motivational speaker, and you know, the book has given me a way to get m

In this episode of iCantCU, I'm trying something completely different—an audio-only format recorded while walking laps around my house. I talk about the frustration of unreliable audio description devices at theaters and why it's such a barrier for blind patrons like me. I also share how my recent Ray-Ban Meta Smart Glasses videos on YouTube outperformed anything I've done before and preview an upcoming video on the new Oakley Meta Smart Glasses. Inspired by other podcasters, I'm hoping this low-tech, low-barrier approach helps me put out more episodes, more often. Let's see how it goes!. Show notes at https://www.iCantCU.com/287 Links Mentioned Product links are affiliate links so that I may earn a commission. Ray-Ban Meta Glasses, Wayfarer: https://amzn.to/42EU0Sy The Federation Focus missing AD: https://youtu.be/tX6eEa3Cje4?si=WJtmpop4q0BumaFr White Canes Connect one of the 100 Best Visually Impaired Podcasts: https://traffic.libsyn.com/whitecanesconnect/white_canes_connect_132_post.mp3 And another Top 100 Best lists for White Canes Connect: https://www.millionpodcasts.com/visually-impaired-podcasts/?utm_source=smtp&utm_medium=F1_email&utm_content=template_b Federation Focus on the NFB of PA YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@nfbofpa I edit the show with Descript and love it!: https://www.iCantCU.com/descript/ Be My Eyes app (free): https://www.bemyeyes.com/  Seeing AI app (free): https://www.seeingai.com/  Index of That Real Blind Tech Show episodes: https://www.icantcu.com/trbts/  Watch iCantCU episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@iCantCU Support iCantCU When shopping at Amazon, I would appreciate it if you clicked on this link to make your purchases: https://www.iCantCU.com/amazon. I participate in the Amazon Associate Program and earn commissions on qualifying purchases. The best part is, you don't pay extra for doing this! White Canes Connect Podcast Episode 138 In Episode 138 of White Canes Connect, hosts Lisa Bryant and David Goldstein welcome back Shawn Callaway, President of both the National Federation of the Blind of the District of Columbia and the National Organization of Blind Black Leaders (NOBBL). Shawn shares updates on NOBBL's growth, programming, and plans for the upcoming National Convention in New Orleans. He reflects on the organization's journey from its roots in the DEI Committee in 2018 to its official division status in 2022. Find the podcast on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/shawn-callaway-and-nobbls-national-impact/id1592248709?i=1000714779734 Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/6LTcvrGqwvK8OpUAnmkgfu YouTube https://youtu.be/85VxfsQOF1w?si=KVZoTp4D8l4rI28f My Podcast Gear Here is all my gear and links to it on Amazon. I participate in the Amazon Associates Program and earn a commission on qualifying purchases. Zoom Podtrak P4: https://amzn.to/33Ymjkt Zoom ZDM Mic & Headphone Pack: https://amzn.to/33vLn2s Zoom H1n Recorder: https://amzn.to/3zBxJ9O  Gator Frameworks Desk Mounted Boom Arm: https://amzn.to/3AjJuBK Shure SM58 S Mic: https://amzn.to/3JOzofg  Sony ZV-E10 camera : https://amzn.to/4fFBSxM  GoPro Hero 11 Black: https://amzn.to/3SKI7WX Rode Video Micro (used on GoPro): https://amzn.to/4kVMJWI Sennheiser Headset (1st 162 episodes): https://amzn.to/3fM0Hu0  Follow iCantCU on your favorite podcast directory! Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/icantcu-podcast/id1445801370/  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3nck2D5HgD9ckSaUQaWwW2  Audible: https://www.audible.com/pd/iCantCU-Podcast-Podcast/B08JJM26BT  IHeart: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/256-icantcu-podcast-31157111/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/davidbenj  Reach out on social media Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/davidbenj Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/davidbenj Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/davidbenj LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidbenj Are You or Do You Know A Blind Boss? If you or someone you know is crushing it in their field and is also blind, I want to hear from you! Call me at (646) 926-6350 and leave a message. Please include your name and town, and tell me who the Blind Boss is and why I need to have them on an upcoming episode. You can also email the show at iCantCUPodcast@gmail.com.

I heard Cheryl speak at the National Federation of Families Conference (https://www.ffcmh.org/) in November of 2024, where she very vulnerably shared her experience of losing her son, DJ, to suicide seven years ago. On this episode, Cheryl talks about what a gifted athlete and student DJ was, and how she and her husband had no idea that DJ was struggling. Cheryl candidly discusses the hours, days, and weeks following DJ's suicide and how their friends and community surrounded them and held them up during this time. Cheryl offers advice and tips to parents based on what she has learned since DJ's death, as well as how her Christian faith has sustained her and led her to the establishment of the DJ Deas Marvelous Light Foundation (https://djdeasmarvelouslightfoundation.com). Cheryl's life passion is to prevent another family from experiencing death by suicide. Cheryl wants people to know that even on the darkest days, there is still hope, and it's ok to not be ok.

Episode Notes Airacast July 2025 Convention Time! July means it's time to hit the road for the conventions of the American Council of the Blind and the National Federation of the Blind. Jenine Stanley and Everette Bacon go over everything you'll need to know from traveling to and from Dallas andNew Orleans to where we are in the respective exhibit halls and when you can catch our workshops, plus a convention deal from the Customer Care team. But wait! There's more! It's “Aira on the Go!” With our Q3 Giveaway. Find out what you could win just by using one of our transportation-related offers.  Check out the ACB National Conference and Convention at https://acbconvention.org. Check out the NFB convention at https://nfb.org/convention.  Learn more about visual interpreting at www.aira.io. Question or comments about this podcast? Email us at airacast@aira.io. Find out more at https://airacast.pinecast.co This podcast is powered by Pinecast.

Today Ashley Rudolph is an executive coach working with high-achieving and executives who are at a “crossroad” as they look GREAT on paper, but tend to exhibit fears and have other problems that effect their confidence and performance. Ashley was not always a coach and, in fact, did not view herself as a coach during most of her career. She grew up in the Bronx in New York City. She attributes her high confidence level to the high bar her parents set for her as well as to the environment where she grew up.   After high school Ashley enrolled in Babson College where she quickly had to learn much about business and working as a team. She will tell us that story. After graduation she secured a job, but was layed off and then went back to Babson to secure her Master's degree.   Ashley began working and quickly rose through the corporate ranks of tech companies. She tells us how, while not really tech savy at first, she pushed herself to learn what she needed to know to work as part of a team and then eventually to lead high tech teams.   In 2023 her high tech employment world took a change which she will describe. Bottom line is that she was laid off from her vice presidential position and after pondering what to do she realized that she had actually been coaching her employees for some time and so she began hirering herself out as an executive coach. We will get the benefit of receiving a number of her insights on leadership, confidence building and how to become better mentally with anything life throughs at us. What Ashley says during our episode time makes a great deal of sense and I believe you will gain a lot from what she has to say. You can reach out to Ashley through the contact information in the show notes for this Unstoppable Mindset episode.     About the Guest:   Ashley Rudolph is an executive coach for high-achieving leaders and executives at a crossroads—those who have built success on paper but are ready to step into something greater. Her work is grounded in a bold belief: true transformation isn't about doing more—it's about leading differently.   A former tech executive, she scaled from IC to VP in just five years, leading $75M+ deals and teams of 250+ at high-growth companies. She knows what it takes to succeed in high-stakes environments—not just in execution, but in the deeper, often invisible work of leadership: making bold decisions, navigating uncertainty, and owning your impact.   Her signature methodology, The Three Dimensions of Transformation, helps leaders unlock their full potential by focusing on: mindset, strategy, and elite execution.   Whether guiding clients through reinvention, leadership evolution, or high-stakes career moves, Ashley helps them break free from outdated success metrics and create momentum that lasts. Her insights have been featured in Inc., U.S. News & World Report, The New York Post, Success Magazine, Apartment Therapy, and more. She also writes The Operator's Edge, a newsletter on the unseen shifts that drive real momentum in leadership and career growth. Because true leadership isn't about following a path. It's about defining your own. Ways to connect with Ashley:   My website which has details about me, my programs, and insights about high achievers in the workplace: www.workwithashleyr.com    My newsletter which gets published every single Monday morning with my expert advice for high achievers on how to succeed in the workplace. newsletter.workwithashleyr.com    My LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyrudolph/   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hello, everyone, wherever you happen to be today, I am Michael Hingson, and you are listening to or watching or both, unstoppable mindset today, our guest is Ashley Rudolph, who is a coach, and I like something Ashley put in her bio that I thought was really interesting, and that is that Ashley's work is grounded in the belief that true transportation is not really about doing more, but rather it's doing things differently. And I want, I'm going to want to learn about that. I think that's fascinating, and I also think it is correct, but we will, we will definitely get to that and talk about that. Ashley approached me a little while ago and said, I'd like to explore coming on your content, your podcast. And I said, Well, sure, except I told her the same thing that I tell everyone who comes on the podcast, there is one hard and fast rule you got to follow, and that is, you got to have fun, or you can't come on the podcast, so you got to have fun. Ashley, just   Ashley Rudolph ** 02:26 reminding you, I'm ready. I am ready. I'm coming into the podcast today with all of my best jokes, all of my best tricks. Oh, good.   Speaker 1 ** 02:35 Well, we want to hear them all. Well, thank you for being here, and it's a pleasure to have you on unstoppable mindset.   Ashley Rudolph ** 02:42 Yes, thank you so much for having me. I was just really taken by your entire background story, and I took a risk and sent you a message. So thank you so much for having me on the podcast.   Speaker 1 ** 02:55 Well, I have always been of the opinion that everyone has stories to tell, and a lot of people just don't believe they do, but that's because they don't think about it. And so what I tell people who say that to me when we talk about them coming on the podcast, my job is to help bring out the stories. Now, you didn't say that, and I'm not surprised, but still, a lot of people say that. And the reality is, I believe everyone is more unstoppable than they think they are, and that they undersell themselves, they underrate what they are and what they can do,   Ashley Rudolph ** 03:28 yeah, and honestly, I 100% agree with you, and that's why, and maybe I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but you triggered a thought. That's why I spend every single one of my first coaching meetings with a client, having them talk me through either their professional history or their wins from the past year. And in those conversations, my feedback is also is always Hey, you're not giving yourself enough credit for the things that you're doing. Like, these are amazing stories, or like, repeating things back to them a little bit differently than they would have phrased it, but that's 100% accurate. We don't sell ourselves enough,   Speaker 1 ** 04:08 even to ourselves. We don't sell ourselves enough, especially to ourselves. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, tell me a little about kind of the early Ashley growing up and all that, and you know where you came from, and all that sort of stuff,   Ashley Rudolph ** 04:23 yeah. So I grew up in New York. I'm from the Bronx. Oh and yeah, yeah. So, so is my   Michael Hingson ** 04:30 mom   Ashley Rudolph ** 04:31 Aqua? Oh my gosh, I had no idea. So I grew up in the Bronx and grew up with my mom. My dad was around too, and, oh, it's interesting, and I'm sure this will make sense, but I grew up going to Catholic schools from first grade to senior year of high school, and something about me, it was like I was always a very self assured. Determined person, and that carried through all the way through my adulthood. And maybe that comes from me being a New Yorker. Maybe that comes from my mom being a an immigrant. She's from the Caribbean. She's from the Bahamas, and she had a very high bar for what success looked like I don't know where it comes from, but yeah, yeah. So that's a little bit about me growing up and kind of who I was   Speaker 1 ** 05:28 as a kid. So now, where are you living? Now?   Ashley Rudolph ** 05:32 I am in New York again, so I moved back to New York in 2020,   Speaker 1 ** 05:38 okay, wow, just in time for the pandemic. Lucky you?   Ashley Rudolph ** 05:43 Yeah, I actually moved back to New York on election day in 2020 so I missed the early pandemic. But yeah, yeah, yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 05:53 I was in New York speaking on March 5, and that night, I got back to the hotel, and my flight was supposed to go out at like, 415 in the afternoon, yeah. And I said, when I started hearing that they were talking about closing down the city, I think I better leave earlier. So I was on a 730 flight out the next day. Oh my gosh,   Ashley Rudolph ** 06:18 wow. So you just made it out and that yeah, and at the time, I was living in Boston, and I actually was went on a vacation with a friend, and we flew back the day before they shut down the airports in Boston. So   Speaker 1 ** 06:36 that was lucky. Yeah, did you live in Boston itself or a suburb?   Ashley Rudolph ** 06:42 Yeah, I lived in Boston for two years, I think, yeah, I lived in the city, yeah. I   Speaker 1 ** 06:50 lived in Winthrop for three years, and commuted across Boston to Cambridge every day,   Ashley Rudolph ** 06:55 yeah, oh, my god, yeah. So I worked in Cambridge and I lived in the West End, right above TD Garden.   Speaker 1 ** 07:03 Oh, okay, yeah, I hear that Durgan Park closed in, in near Faneuil Hall.   Ashley Rudolph ** 07:13 Oh, yeah, well, I have to admit, I didn't go there that much. Was living in Boston.   Speaker 1 ** 07:19 It was a fun place. It was a family style thing, and they had tables for four around the outer edges inside the restaurant. But you couldn't sit at one of those unless you had four people. And the serving staff was trained to be a little bit on the snotty side. And I went in fun. Oh, wait. Oh, absolutely. They made it fun. But I went in and the hostess, there were three of us, and my guide dog at the time, Holland, who was a wonderful, cute golden retriever, and she said, Oh, we're going to put you at one of the tables for four. And I said, Well, okay, we appreciate that. And Holland was under the table. This waitress comes up and she says, you're not supposed to be sitting here. This is a table for four, and there are only three of you. And I said, but they told us we could. No Nobody told you you could sit here. You got to go back over to the big tables. And I said, Look, we have a guide dog under the table, and he's really happy. And they told us we could be here because of the dog. And she's, I don't believe that at all. I'm, I'm gonna go check. I don't believe you. She goes away and she comes back a little bit later. No, you're not supposed to sit here. And I said, Look, lift up the tablecloth and look under the table. I'm not going to fall for that. Just do it. She finally did. And there's Holland staring out with these big brown eyes. And she just melted. She goes away and comes back. And one of the things about Durgan Park is they have big plates of prime rib. And she brought this plate of prime ribs somebody hadn't eaten at all, and she said, can I give this to the dog? And so, you know, normally, I would say no, but we were trying to make peace in our time, so I said, Oh, sure. And she and Holland had a great time. So it was fun.   Ashley Rudolph ** 08:59 Oh, and Holland got prime rib. Holland   Speaker 1 ** 09:03 got prime rib. What a treat. And so did and so did the rest of us, but, but we had to pay for ours. But I missed Durgin Park. It was a fun place to go, but I understand that it is closed, and I don't know whether it's oh, well, oh, that's unfortunate, but Quincy market's a wonderful place to go. It's not a lot of interesting things. So you, so you went through high school. So you went through high school in New York, went in in the Bronx tough neighborhood, and then what did you do? So   Ashley Rudolph ** 09:34 I then went to college. So I went to Babson College, which is, well, it's in Massachusetts, it's in Wellesley, and it's actually right next door to Wellesley College. Yeah, yeah. So I went there and I studied business, and that was basically where I learned how to be successful in the workplace, which is kind. Funny, because I found that over the years, a lot of people will say, you know, I went to college, but by the end of it, maybe I didn't know what my transferable skills were, or I studied something that isn't related to what I was doing or what I did as a professional, and I always felt the opposite, like in freshman year at Babson, they gave us $3,000 to, like, start a company as a as a students. So all of us just had to start this company. We had our business ideas. There was a CEO, a CMO, a CFO. We had like rules assigned. And that was my first experience of what a workplace could be like, although it was with 18 year olds, so maybe not totally reflective, but we had performance reviews, we had a head of HR, we had like, company meetings, so we were doing things within a framework, and they all kind of translated into the workplace, different players. So Babson basically kind of turned me into the business person that I am   Speaker 1 ** 11:09 today. Now, did each person get $3,000 and they started their own company?   Ashley Rudolph ** 11:14 Oh, no. So there were, there were maybe 30 of us, and we started a company with that with $3,000 Okay? Exactly with that investment, it was managed quite tightly. There's not a lot that you can do with $3,000 right? So you can probably guess that a lot of the businesses turned out to be the same. So there was always a T Shirt Company or a company the when the LIVESTRONG wristbands were popular, then we were like, oh, let's customize these wristbands. So yeah, yeah. The the company ideas basically ended up being the same, because there's not that much that you could do with that, yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 11:56 yeah, yeah. So much you can do unless you start making a bunch of money,   Ashley Rudolph ** 12:00 yeah, yeah, yeah. And in today's landscape, I guess there's more that you can do with digital products and stuff like that. But yeah, yeah, we, we had to do physical so we were pretty limited, yeah, well, that's   Speaker 1 ** 12:13 okay, but still, if the company is successful, and was it successful? Yeah,   Ashley Rudolph ** 12:19 we, did turn a profit, and then for all of the businesses that did turn a profit, you had to donate the profits to a local charity. So we did. We donated ours to a local organization. We threw an event in partnership with the organization. It was just, it was nice. So, yeah, oh,   Speaker 1 ** 12:43 cool. So, how, how long did the company last? Essentially, was it all four years?   Ashley Rudolph ** 12:50 It was the first   Speaker 2 ** 12:52 year, just the first year, okay, yeah, okay, yeah, that's still, that's pretty cool.   Ashley Rudolph ** 12:58 Yeah, it is. I have to say that I learned a lot,   Speaker 1 ** 13:02 yeah, well, you're you're kind of forced to or you don't succeed. So I was going to ask you why you felt that you learned how to be successful. But now it's pretty clear, yeah, yeah, yeah.   Ashley Rudolph ** 13:13 So we started there in freshman year, and then sophomore, junior and senior year was kind of more of a deep dive on specific skills. So that you take our accounting classes, finance marketing, if you were into retail, there was like a retail management class at the core classes. So we had, you know, liberal arts courses, so art history, yeah, philosophy, things like that. But yeah, everything was mostly centered around business and cool, yeah, yeah. Well, that's   Speaker 1 ** 13:47 pretty exciting. Did you did you go do any graduate work anywhere?   Ashley Rudolph ** 13:52 It's funny, yes, I did. So I graduated from Babson, and my first job was in a creative agency, and I was doing media buying, and at the time it was 2008 and we were buying ads in school newspapers, which was dying like it was pretty much On on its last leg, and I just had this thought when I was doing it, and that I wasn't inspired by the work, because it wasn't growing, it was going away. And it was clear, yeah, and that. And actually my first job, I got laid off because it was a dying industry, and the team needed to be smaller, and at that point, it's my first job. So it was very devastating to me. I had never gone through anything like that before. So then I decided to go back to school. So I did my masters. I actually. Went back to Babson, but in an international program. So I spent my first semester in France, my second semester in China, and then my final semester at Babson. Ah,   Speaker 1 ** 15:13 so why was the newspaper industry going away? Just because everything was going online?   Ashley Rudolph ** 15:18 Exactly, yeah, things were shifting more digital. Yeah, it's exactly   Speaker 1 ** 15:23 that, so they didn't need as many people selling and doing other things as they did before. Yeah,   Ashley Rudolph ** 15:28 yeah, exactly. Or companies were figuring out different ways to reach college students that wasn't dependent on getting in the school newspaper.   15:39 Yeah? Yeah, yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 15:42 yeah. So you got your master's degree from Babson, and then what did you   Ashley Rudolph ** 15:47 do? I got my master's degree from Babson, and I'll fast forward a little bit, because what's funny is that after I graduated, I still didn't quite know what I wanted to do, but I figured it out. I ended up going back into marketing. But if you remember, what I described was, in that first job, I wasn't connected to the mission. I wasn't inspired by where the industry was going. So I ended up pivoting into nonprofits. And my first job after graduating from my masters was running digital media, so not physical media, so I shifted into social media and online marketing. Had a nonprofit, right? So I was connected to the mission. I felt like the work that I was doing was for a good cause, and it was an industry that was new and that was growing, and that was ever changing and exciting. So I did that for about three years, so first at a nonprofit, and then at an a charter school network that was in New York and New Jersey at the time, but has since expanded far beyond that. So, yeah, I went into mission driven work, and I went into digital marketing and digital media. And I think what I took away from that chapter of my career was that I want to be in an industry that is ever evolving. So, yeah, so after my experience in the nonprofit and education space, that's when I jumped into tech. So I jumped into tech after that, and spent a decade in the tech industry. And obviously, tech is ever changing. I had access to so many different opportunities. I grew really fast. I started at the first company, the first tech company that I worked for. I was a program manager, and five years later I was a vice president, right? So, like, I was able to seize opportunities and work really hard and get to the level that I wanted to get to I was very ambitious, so I think tech just kind of gave me everything I wanted. Career wise, how   Speaker 1 ** 18:09 did you progress so fast to go from being a program manager to the level of Vice President in what generally would be defined as a pretty short time? Yeah,   Ashley Rudolph ** 18:20 yeah, yeah. So some of it was hard work, and I think the other factor was luck, and the other factor was going after whatever it was that was in front of me. So taking risks. So I would say, with the hard work part, I worked a lot. See when I first, when I started that job, I was actually a Program Manager for Back End Web Development, which was Ruby on Rails, coding a coding language. And then I was also a program manager for data science. I had no experience in either I was not technical. I did not have the technical skills or technical aptitude to do this, but I did have the desire to learn. So my first month at that job, I worked seven days a week. I went to workshops on the weekend. I did coding workshops, I read through all of the documentation. I sat in all of the programs that I was managing. I just dug deep. And I think that first year of immersing myself in everything kind of set the foundation for me.   Speaker 1 ** 19:38 So you made yourself pretty technical by the time it was all said and done,   Ashley Rudolph ** 19:42 yeah, yes, yes, and not on the level of any of my instructors or the students that actually took the programs. But I cared about learning, and I cared about having a certain level of fluency in order to I had to hire instructors for the program so I couldn't fumble my. Words, right? So, yeah, yeah. So I taught myself, yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 20:05 you learned. You learned enough. You You weren't trying to be the most technical person, but you learned enough to be able to interact with people and hold your own. Yeah, which, which is the important thing, I think. And for me, I know at one point, I had a job that was phased out when Xerox bought the company and I couldn't find another job. And it wasn't because of a lack of trying, and it wasn't because I didn't have the skills, but rather, as societal norms typically go, the belief is blind people can't work, as opposed to what we really can and can't do. So I eventually started my own company selling computer aided design systems, and for me, as a blind person, of course, I'm not going to sit in front of a CAD computer or even a PC based CAD system, which is what we sold. So I had to learn, however, all about how to operate the system. Learn about PCs. So I learned how to how to build PCs. I learned about CAD so I could actually walk someone through the process of drawing without actually having to do it, so I understand what, exactly what you're saying. Yeah, and it was important to do that. Yeah. Yeah,   Ashley Rudolph ** 21:21 it was important, and no one told me to do that, right? And I'm sure that no one told you to do that too, but there was just something in me that knew that I was excited about this work, or I wanted opportunities, and this was the best way that I knew how to go after it. Yeah, yeah.   Speaker 1 ** 21:43 Well, and, and it is the way you still have you do have to learn enough to be able to hold your own, but I Yeah, but I think it's also important in learning that that you're also not trying to threaten anyone else. You're just trying to be able to communicate with them   Ashley Rudolph ** 22:00 exactly, exactly, yes,   Speaker 1 ** 22:05 yeah. All too often, people view others as threats when they really shouldn't. But you know,   Speaker 2 ** 22:12 that's Yeah, another story gonna do Yeah, right, right.   Speaker 1 ** 22:16 Well, so for within five years, you became a vice president. What was the tech that y'all were really developing?   Ashley Rudolph ** 22:22 Yeah, great question. So what's interesting about this is that it wasn't so the first company I worked for wasn't a tech company, and that they were building tech it's actually a coding boot camp. So they were teaching people either how to code or how to become a UX designer, or how to become a product manager. So that was the product after a while. And I think long after I left the company, they did develop their own tech. So they developed an online an LMS learning management system, and there was digital content. But when I started, it was really about the boot camp era and teaching people how to code, because there were all these engineering jobs and web development jobs that were available and not enough, not enough talent, not   Speaker 2 ** 23:13 enough talent to go around. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.   Ashley Rudolph ** 23:17 Which is when you think about today's market and where we're, where we are, that was only 10 years ago, and it's a completely different story. Now, the market is flooded with too many web developers. Yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 23:29 it is, but I would say, from my standpoint of seeing what they produce in terms of making web content accessible, not nearly enough of them know how to do that, which is another story,   Ashley Rudolph ** 23:41 yeah, yeah, yeah, which is so interesting. And yeah, unacceptable, unfortunate, because there were always teams that were in charge of accessibility at the companies that I worked for, but then having someone be in charge of it, and then properly resourcing the accessibility team is a whole other story. And I think so many companies view it as just oh yeah, I checked the box. My website is accessible. But did you really build with your end users in mind, and the answer is probably no,   Speaker 1 ** 24:23 probably not, yeah, and all too often that ended up being the case. Well, so what did you do after you became vice president?   Ashley Rudolph ** 24:32 Yeah, so that was tough. You said it, and you said, I climbed really fast. And that's true, I did, and because I climbed fast, there were a lot of lessons to learn. So after I became vice president, I really had to own that leadership seat, or that executive leadership seat, and recognize that what had got me there. Here is was not what was going to keep me there. So the thing that I did after I became a vice president was really understanding how to be an effective executive. So that means really understanding the business side, which I already knew I had been doing that I've been thinking about that since college, so that wasn't something that I was concerned about, but the biggest thing was forming executive level relationships and really understanding how to form allies, and understanding that at that level, it's less of I have the right answer, and listen to me, because I'm a vice president and more of a okay. How am I influencing the people around me to listen to my idea, accept my idea, champion and support my idea. And it's not enough to just have something that's right on paper.   Speaker 1 ** 26:06 The others the other side of that, of course, could be that maybe you have an idea that may or may not be the right idea, which also means you need to learn to listen,   Ashley Rudolph ** 26:13 yes, exactly, exactly, and that was absolutely the other side of it. So me coming into things and being like, I understand what needs to happen, and not having all the context either way, right? So, yeah, yeah, yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 26:31 but you must have done pretty well at doing all that.   Ashley Rudolph ** 26:34 I figured it out eventually. Yes, I did figure it out eventually, and it wasn't easy, but I was able to grow a team and scale a team, and I was able to move from maybe the business side of running operations to the product and technology side of it, so being able to see two different sides of the coin. And yeah, it did. It did work. Well, I was able to create my own department, which was a product project management office that oversaw all of the work of the entire product and design and technology teams, 250 people. I I'm not sure that I would have thought I was capable of doing something like that, and building something from the ground up, and hiring a team of, I think, 15 people, and leading that department. And, yeah, yeah, and it was great. I did learn a lot. And then 2023 happened. And that was the major turning point in Tech where I think the dominant story shifted from, or at least in education technology, which I think you know something a lot about, but the dominant story shifted from this is great. This is growing. Distance Learning is fueling growth. There's so much opportunity here to it's too big. We need to, you know, do layoffs. We need to find a way to right size the business. There's actually not a lot of growth happening. So 2023 happened, and I ended up getting laid off with my entire department that I built. And that was such a huge lesson, a huge leadership lesson for me, for sure. So I'll pause so that I'm not not talking at you, but hanger, yeah, yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 28:46 well, so you got laid off. I've been there. I've had that happen. And, yeah, it isn't fun, but it's like anything else. You may not have been able to control it happening, but no, you are the one who has to deal with it. So you may not have control over it happening, but you always have control over how you deal with what happened.   Ashley Rudolph ** 29:09 Yes, yes,   29:11 yes. And what did you do?   Ashley Rudolph ** 29:14 And that's exactly what was so different about this time. So I will say I had two months notice. I had an amazing leader, such a technology officer. When the decision was made, he said, Okay, we can make this decision, but I have to tell Ashley immediately. So he told me, and it wasn't surprising, right? Because I saw how the business what direction the business was going in. So I can't say I was shocked, but the big question that I had was, Oh, my God, what am I going to do about my team? And I felt such immense responsibility because I had hired many of them I came to. Care about them and their careers and their livelihoods, and, yeah, I just felt responsible for it. So you said it, you said it beautifully, and that it was about what I decided to do. So from that moment, I shifted my focus, maybe, maybe to my own detriment, but whatever, I came out on the upside, but I shifted my focus to my team, and I thought the best thing that I could do in that moment was preparing them for their next chapters without going directly to the team and damaging the trust of the Chief Technology Officer and saying, in two months, we're all going to get laid off. That's also not reflective of the type of leader I wanted to be. So I figured out that, because we were a project management office and because there wasn't a lot of new work at the company, we had downtime. So I implemented a meeting on the calendar, which was a project review, and every single week, someone on my team had the opportunity to present their projects and talk about what they learned, what was challenging for them, and what their successes were, right, some combination of those things, and they all did it, and that was my way of helping to start prepare them for the interview process, because now you know your work, you know what your impact was, and you've gotten my feedback as someone who's a leader, who knows what hiring managers are looking for, you got my feedback on the best ways to present yourself, and they were able to ask questions. There were some people who approached me or the director on my team privately and asked us to review their resumes, because they kind of saw the writings on the wall without me ever having to say it, and I did. And what ended up happening is, at that two month mark, or whenever, when the layoffs did happen, no one on my team was shocked, and there were people who actually within a month after the layoff happened, they had found new jobs because they had that time to prepare and felt confident in their job search and the stories that they were telling about themselves. So I all that to say that I did exactly that. I chose the type of leader that I wanted to be, and the thing that felt important to me was preparing my team for their next chapter,   Michael Hingson ** 32:32 which I would say is the right thing to do,   Ashley Rudolph ** 32:34 yeah, yes, exactly, because it   Speaker 1 ** 32:37 isn't, no matter what a lot of people might think, it isn't about you, it's about the team. It's about you and the rest of the team, because you're all a team,   Ashley Rudolph ** 32:45 yeah? Except Yes, yes. And I very much viewed my team as an extension of myself, an extension of them. I you know, it wasn't just about them doing a job for me, quote, unquote, like that's not the type of leader that I am. We are a team,   Speaker 1 ** 33:04 right? So meanwhile, while you were doing that and helping the team, what were you also doing for you? And   Ashley Rudolph ** 33:12 that's why I said to my detriment, I didn't do a lot of thought. I put no thought into what I wanted to do. Okay? At all. I just And you know what? It's not to my detriment. I think what I needed at that time was a distraction, and this was a really good distraction for me, from sorting through what I wanted to do next, but also in navigating that with my team and supporting them through that, I think the answer became very clear once I was ready to ask my question, I just coached my team. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.   Speaker 1 ** 33:51 And so you sort of, as you would say, pivoted to being a coach,   Ashley Rudolph ** 33:57 yes, yes. And I want to be clear that this wasn't a decision that was like, you know, that I just fell into coaching, you know, I I made the decision to so I took some time to think about what were the pieces of my work that I really loved when I was a VP at multi, you know, at multiple companies, and the answer was clear, and that I really loved coaching and helping people become better at their work, and I really loved mentorship. And those were the parts of the work that if I could just do that all day, that's what I would want to do. And I was like, Well, I have the I can make a decision to do that all day, every day now, because I'm not doing anything, I just got laid off. So I can choose to do this work. So that's exactly how I ended up being a coach.   Speaker 1 ** 34:58 Well, so you. Ever originally planned on being a coach. So was it that work with your team that really was the sort of pivotal decision for you, that although you never thought you were going to be a coach, that led you to coaching, or was there something else that really helped move you there? There was something else. Okay, yeah, more to the story.   Ashley Rudolph ** 35:21 There is always you're peeling all the layers so, so initially, what I thought I would do, because I was an operations person, I was like, I'll just be an operations consultant. I'll go out on my own, and people will hire me to be their ops person. So let me, you know, run with that as an idea. And I started having conversations with former colleagues. And what was funny in that so many of their conversations were kind of like, oh yeah, I want to support you. And that sounds nice. I understand why you would want to be an operations consultant. But there's something more interesting about you being a coach. Or I want to hire you to be a coach for my team. Or, Hey, you did really amazing things in your career. You should help other people do those things. And that was the theme that people kept telling me, so I finally decided, decided to listen. That's how I landed on coaching. And instead of it being like, oh my god, I'm trying to sell the value of myself as an operations consultant, once I just owned the coach title, people just started saying, okay, yep, Sign me up. Or I'll refer you to someone who needs a coach right now. Or, hey, you coach just one person on my team, and they're great. Here's more. So it just became easy, and it became less of a I'm trying to sell people, and I'm trying to, like, convince them that they need me in this role, it was just easy.   Speaker 1 ** 37:04 So do you think you talked about being ambitious when you were in college and starting that business at Babson and so on? Do you think you've always continued to try to be, if you will, ambitious, or did you sort of shift in terms of mindsets over time?   Ashley Rudolph ** 37:22 Yeah, that's a really good question. I do think I have always been ambitious, and when I visited my mom last year or the year before last for Thanksgiving, I found a fake report card that I wrote myself, that I wrote for myself in fourth grade. And there was a prompt that said, what would you want your teacher to write on your report card at the end of this year? And I wrote, Ashley is excelling at excellence. Well, there you go, fourth grade. So I think it's always been there.   Speaker 1 ** 38:02 So is it, but is it ambition? Is it ambition, or is it being industrious and being being confident? You know?   Ashley Rudolph ** 38:10 Yeah, yeah. Oh, that is such a good question, right? So there was a version of me when I was in the corporate world where I would have just said, yeah, it's ambition, right? Because I'm always motivated to, you know, go after the next level, and that's what's driving me. And now, now that you put that question out there, it is, it is that confidence, because I'm not chasing a thing or the next level right now, in this phase, I'm chasing quote, unquote impact like the thing that drives me is helping people, helping people probably achieve things for themselves that They also didn't think that they could in their careers, and I'm just helping them get there, yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 39:06 and that's why I asked the question, because ambition, the way you normally would think of it, yeah, can be construed as being negative, but clearly what you're doing is is different than that. Yeah, you know, at this at the same time for you, now that you're coaching and so on, and you shifted to doing something different, yeah, did you have to let something go to allow you to be open to deciding to be a coach? Yeah,   Ashley Rudolph ** 39:38 and the thing that I had to let go was exactly what you just pointed out. So you are very intuitive. The thing I had to let go was that the traditional construct of what success looks like. So it looks like, okay, I'm a VP, so I next need to be an SVP. And then after that I need to be at the sea level. And no, and I guess there could have always been questions about, was that what I really wanted, or was it just the next level that I was after? Yeah, yeah. And there was that, I think it was just the next level for quite some time, but now, like I said, the thing that I let go of was that and wanting to grasp for what the next level is. And now for me, it looks like, okay, well, I only have so many hours in the day, so I can't coach unlimited people, but I still want to impact many people. So what does that mean? Okay, well, I'm writing a newsletter, and I put out a newsletter every week with my thoughts, and that can reach many more people than I can one to one or podcast. I'm talking to you on this podcast, and maybe me sharing more of my story will inspire someone else, or I'll learn from you and your community, Michael, but yeah, I think the thing, the thing that determines what success looks like for me is my ability to impact   Speaker 1 ** 41:14 and and the result of that is what happens with the people that you're working with, and so you, you do get feedback because of that,   Ashley Rudolph ** 41:25 yes, yes, I do get, I get lots of feedback, and it is, it's transformational feedback. And I think one of the things that I love, and I do this for every client that I work with, is on day one, we established a baseline, which I don't necessarily have to always say that to them like we're establishing the baseline, it's understood. And then in our last session, I put a presentation together, and I talked to them about where they were when we started, and what they wanted for themselves, and over the course of us coaching together, what they were able to accomplish, so what their wins were, and then where they land, and just me taking them on that journey every single or when they work with me, is eye opening, because they don't even see the change as it's happening. And I'm like, Hey, you did this. You're not that person that you walked into this room as on day one, and maybe by the end, you have a new job, or you got promoted, or you feel more confident and assured in your role. But whatever it is, you've changed, and you should be proud of yourself for that.   Speaker 1 ** 42:43 Yeah, yeah. And it's, I am sure, pretty cool when you get to point that out to people and they realize it, they realize how far they've come.   Ashley Rudolph ** 42:55 Yeah, yeah, it is. It's, it's really awesome to be able to share that with people and to also be on the journey with them, and when they think that maybe they're not ready to do something just gently reminding them that they are. And sometimes I think about what, you know, what managers have done for me, because I've, I had the privilege of working with really great managers some in my career, and yeah, they did that to me, and that that's how I was able to accomplish the things that I did. So yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 43:34 well, it's great that you're able to carry those lessons forward and help other people. That's pretty cool.   Ashley Rudolph ** 43:38 Yeah, yeah. And honestly, I hope that my clients can do the same. So if there are things that they learn in coaching, any frameworks or things like that, if they're able to help people, then that's great. And the cycle continues, you know? So, yeah, yeah.   Speaker 1 ** 43:57 You know, a question that comes to mind is that when we talk about leadership, there are certainly times that leaders face uncertainty, especially when there are transitions going on and you've experienced a lot of transitions. What would you say is the unconventional truth about leadership in times of change and transition?   Ashley Rudolph ** 44:20 Yeah, yeah. So I think the thing that I see the most is that in times of transition, especially if it's a transition that maybe you have no control over, right? You're not choosing to leave your job, for example, the the inclination is to over control, right, and try to assert control over the situation in any way that you can, and in more cases than not, that backfires to some degree. So the thing that I try to focus on with my clients is getting to a point where you accept the fact that what is happening is happening. I'm kind of like my layoff, right? I didn't fight the decision or try to change the decision. I just had to accept it for what it was. And then the thing that we focus on is now that we know the thing is happening, whatever the transition or change is, it doesn't have to be as extreme as a layoff, but now that we know that it's happening, what can you control and what can you focus on? And that's what we need to spend our time on. And it can be anything, you know, sometimes people are put on performance improvement plan, and you kind of just if, if this is a situation where you're like, Oh yeah, I could see where this came from, and I wish that I was not in this situation. Okay, well, you kind of have to accept that you are, and what can you do about it now, it's really, yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 45:58 what's the hardest lesson you've learned about leadership and being a leader, not just being an executive, but coaching people.   Ashley Rudolph ** 46:10 Yeah, and I get this all the time as a coach too. It's it's in me, but the lesson that I've learned is I don't have to know everything. That's   Michael Hingson ** 46:21 a hard lesson. To learn, isn't   Ashley Rudolph ** 46:25 it? It is, especially when you feel like as a leader, like people are relying on you, or you think they are, they're relying on you to know the answers or to know what to do next, or as a coach, they're relying on you to ask the right questions or to guide them in the right direction, right? And sometimes you just don't know, and that's okay, and it's also okay to say that. And I was just going to say that, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. It took me a long time to get comfortable with that, but now, now I am more comfortable with it, for sure. Do you feel like you struggled with that too? Or Yeah?   Speaker 1 ** 47:06 Well, I have, but I was blessed early on, when I was a student teacher in getting my secondary teaching credential, I was a student teacher in an algebra one class in high school, and one of the students came in one day, and he asked a question in the course of the day, and it should have been a question I knew the answer to, but I didn't. But when I when I realized I didn't, I also, and I guess this is my makeup, thought to myself, but I can't blow smoke about it, so I just said, you know, I don't know the answer, but I'm going to look it up and I will bring you the answer tomorrow. Is that okay? And he said, Yeah. And my master teacher after class cornered me, and he said, That was absolutely the best thing you could do, because if you try to psych out these kids and fake them out, they're going to see through you, and you're never going to get their trust. Yeah, and of course, he was absolutely right. So I did the right thing, but I also learned the value of doing the right thing. And Mr. Redman, my master teacher, certainly put it in perspective. And I think that's so important. We don't have to necessarily have all the right answers. And even if we do have the right answer, the question is, Is it our job to just say the right answer or try to guide people to get to the right answer?   Ashley Rudolph ** 48:41 Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's another leadership lesson, right? It's and it's so much more powerful when people do get to the answers themselves, yeah. And I think that kind of helps with them being less dependent on coming to you for the answers moving forward, right? If they're able to go on that path of discovery   Speaker 1 ** 49:04 well, and if they are able to do that and you encouraged it, they're going to sense it, and when they get the right answer, they're going to be as high as a kite, and they're going to come and tell you that they did it. So, yeah,   Ashley Rudolph ** 49:15 exactly. Yeah, yeah. What a good feeling.   Speaker 1 ** 49:19 Yeah, it is, what do you do? Or what are your thoughts about somebody who just comes to you and says, I'm stuck?   Ashley Rudolph ** 49:27 Ooh, that happens all the time. Michael, it happens all the time. And I'll tell you, there's two things. So if someone says I'm stuck, they either don't have the confidence to pursue the thing that they know they want to do, but they're just saying they're stuck, which is it is being stuck, right? If you can't take action, then you're stuck. But sometimes they frame that as I don't know where what I want to do or where I want to go, and then I ask. Couple of questions, and it's like, oh, well, you actually do know what you want to do and where you want to go. You just don't have the confidence yet to pursue that path. So part of the time, it's a confidence issue, or the other time, the thing that they're grappling with, or the other cases, what they're grappling with is, I haven't connected with like my values or the things that motivate me or my strengths even right? So maybe they're the ambitious person who was compelled to just chase the next level and the next level and the next level, but now they're asking, Is this really important to me, or do I really want this? As I spoke to another coach, and she ended up leaving what she thought was a dream job at Google, because every day she was kind of like, I still want to be here, and it wasn't her dream job, and she left to become a coach. So it's either one of those two things, most times, for the clients that I work with, and I ask a lot of questions, so I get to the answers, or I help them get to the answers by asking them the right questions. Yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 51:14 and that's the issue. And sometimes you may not know the right question right off the bat, but by the same token, you can search for it by asking other questions.   Ashley Rudolph ** 51:23 Exactly, exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah, that's it.   Speaker 1 ** 51:27 So what is, what is a transformation of a client that you experienced and kind of what really shifted, that changed everything to them, something that just really gave you chills, and was an AHA kind of thing. Yeah,   Ashley Rudolph ** 51:44 there are. There's so many one, okay, so one that I want to share is and basically the client went from, this isn't the job for me. I don't like the role I'm in. I don't think I can be successful, and I don't think my work is valued here. And I would say, over the course of eight months, she went from that to getting one of few perfect performance reviews in the company like it's a company that doesn't give a perfect performance review, right? So, right, going from that and being like, I need to find a new job. I've got to get out to I am excelling at this job, and it wasn't just anyone that gave her the perfect performance review. It was one of the co founders of the company. So like, top person is saying, Yeah, this is great. You're doing amazing work. There is value, and I think you're incredible. So in that transformation, the thing that she had to connect to, or reconnect to, was her values and understanding what are the things that she enjoys about her work and what are the things that she really didn't enjoy, and understanding the why behind that, and then the other two things for her, or developing her confidence, which sounds very fluffy, because it's like, How do you help someone do that? And I help people do that by helping them feel really good about their work product. So with her, with her, what we ended up doing was focusing on helping her prepare for some presentations. Me giving her feedback on her decks, or her talking to me about how she wanted to prepare for a meeting and the points that she wanted to make, and me helping her, you know, craft really compelling talking points, and having that feedback loop with me of being like, Okay, here's how the meeting went, and this was the feedback I got, and also being like, Oh, wow, the meeting went really well. And like feeling her confidence build over time by helping her get better at her work, and gradually over time, it just built to that amazing end point for her. But that's that's a transformation for me that will always stick out, because I just remember that first meeting and me just being like, okay, you know this, this might end up being a journey where we help her find a role that is better suited for her. And, you know, just kind of thinking about that, and it just didn't end up being that at all.   Speaker 1 ** 54:35 Well, the other thing that, in one way or another, probably plays into some of that is the people her bosses, the people who she worked for, probably sensed that something was going on, yeah, and she had to be honest enough to to deal with that. But as she progressed, they had to sense the improvement, and that. Had to help a lot.   Ashley Rudolph ** 55:01 Yes, for sure. And I think maybe there is confusion from her boss and in him thinking that she was ready to take on the work that he knew that she could take on, but she didn't quite feel ready yet. Yeah, so there was something she had to sort through, and she finally, not finally, that wasn't a lot of time at all, but she got there, and yeah, yeah.   Speaker 1 ** 55:26 And I'll bet they were better. I'll bet they were better communicators with each other by the time it was all said and done, too   Ashley Rudolph ** 55:31 Exactly, yes, yeah, yeah. They developed a shorthand, you know? And, yeah, yep.   Speaker 1 ** 55:39 So there are a lot of leaders who look great on paper, but when it really comes down to it, they just aren't really doing all that they ought to be doing. They feel restless or whatever. What's the real reason that they need to deal with to find momentum and move forward?   Ashley Rudolph ** 55:58 Yeah, so I'm going to take a I'm going to take a different approach to answering this question. And because of the people that I work with, again, they're high achievers. Yeah, right. And sometimes I see that what happens is maybe people have described them as restless, or people have said, Why aren't you happy? You have this amazing career, you should be happy. And I think, like that projection, they end up taking that on and feeling guilty about the fact that they want more. But at the core of it, when I talk to them or get to the level of, you know, Hey, what is happening here? What's causing this sense of restlessness? Surprisingly, the answer is, yeah, I have this great job or this great title, but I feel like I could be doing so much more. So it's an impact. It's an impact thing that is driving the people that I work with. So what we end up doing is trying to figure out, to some degree, like I have no control over what happens at work, so I don't want to pretend that I do, but if it is an impact question, then what we get to the core of is, okay, well, how do you increase your impact? And that's what I work with them on?   Speaker 1 ** 57:24 Well, here's a question. So I have been in sales for a long time, and of course, as far as I'm concerned, I still am being a public speaker. I sell more life and philosophy than anything else. But one thing a lot of people face is rejection. A lot that was redundant, but a lot of people face rejection. How do you get people to understand that rejection isn't a bad thing, and that it actually is a sign of success more often than not? And I agree with it. And you had given me this question, I think it's a great question and relevant to answer.   Ashley Rudolph ** 57:58 Yeah, so I just try to flip the thinking. So I make it less about the person rejecting you, or you receiving a rejection. And to me, if you get rejected, it's a signal that you try, and that's what we focus on, right? So if you're not getting rejected and you're in the same place that you were, it's probably an indication that you're not trying, or you're not taking big enough swings, or you're not pushing yourself. So, yeah, I just try to help my clients. You know, think about the fact that, hey, you got rejected because you tried and you put yourself out there, and that's great. And then the other thing I like to think about with rejection is really just like rejection is someone placing a bet, and if you know about bets, you know that they're not 100% right, and sometimes the person just decided they weren't going to place their bet on you. And it's not that you're not capable, or it's not that it wasn't a great idea, maybe it wasn't the right time, maybe whatever, you don't know what the why is, but it's just a bet, and someone could take a different bet, and it can be on you, or you can bet on yourself even, right? So once you start to think about rejection as just the choice that someone made on a day, and that person isn't all people, and they're certainly not representative of, you know, the person who could decide to take a chance on you and your idea or your initiative, then I think the rejection stings a lot less.   Speaker 1 ** 59:31 Yeah, one of the expressions I've heard regularly is the selling really begins. And I and I think whether it's selling a product or whatever you're doing, but the selling really begins when the objections begin or the rejection. Yeah, and I think there's, there's so much truth to that one of the things, one of the things that I used to do when I was selling products, is I would play a game with myself. Is this person. Going to give me a new objection or a new reason for rejection that I haven't heard before, and I always loved it when somebody came up with something that truly I hadn't heard before, and that was absolutely relevant to bring up, because then it's my job to go off and deal with that, but it was fun to put my own mindset in that sort of framework, because it's all about it's it's not me, unless I really am screwing up, it's other things. And no matter whether it's me screwing up or not, it's my job to figure out how to deal with whatever the other person has on their mind. Yeah, and when the new things come up, those are so much fun to deal with. And I even praised people, you know, I've never heard that one before. That's really good. Let's talk about it.   Ashley Rudolph ** 1:00:50 So great, yeah, yeah. They were probably like, oh, okay, wow. Well, yeah, let's talk about it, yeah.   Speaker 1 ** 1:01:00 But I didn't show fear, and didn't need to, because I I went into a learning mode. I want to learn what's on their mind and what's going on,   Ashley Rudolph ** 1:01:09 yeah, and that's what it's about. It's about understanding what's important to the other person, or understanding their concerns. And I think if you come at it like you did, from a place of really wanting to understand them and find common ground, then sometimes you can even shift the rejection right often.   Speaker 1 ** 1:01:27 If you do it right often you can. Yeah, you can. You can reverse it, because most rejections and objections are really based on perception and not necessarily reality   Ashley Rudolph ** 1:01:41 at all? Yes, exactly yes, yes, which is   Speaker 1 ** 1:01:45 important? Well, if you could go back and talk to a younger version of yourself, what moment would you choose and who? What would you say that they should learn? Oh,   Ashley Rudolph ** 1:01:54 this is so this is such a   Speaker 1 ** 1:01:57 great fun question. Yeah,   Ashley Rudolph ** 1:02:03 if I could go back, I would probably tell myself that you you don't necessarily have to run away to find the things that you're looking for in your career, right? And I think in life too. Sometimes you think, Oh, I just have to move to a different city, or I just have to buy a new outfit, or I just have to, I have to, I have to, I have to change this thing. And sometimes you just don't have to. Sometimes you can have a conversation about thing that you want or the thing that you're not getting. So if this is a boss right, talking about the thing that you want or that you're not getting, and coming up with a solution together, and I think for quite some time, I was too afraid to do that, and if I wasn't getting what I needed or what I wanted, I just thought the best thing to do was to find it elsewhere, and I would just go back and tell myself to ask for what I wanted first, and then get the information and then leave if I had to. But leaving doesn't have to be the default.   Speaker 1 ** 1:03:21 Yeah. Cool. Well, Ashley, this has been a lot of fun. We've been doing this an hour. Can you believe   Ashley Rudolph ** 1:03:29 it? We have, we have the time flew by. Fun. Yeah, I could have kept going.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:36 Well, then we'll just have to do another one. Yeah,   Ashley Rudolph ** 1:03:39 we do. It, I will always come back. You are amazing. Michael,   Speaker 1 ** 1:03:43 well, this has been fun, and maybe one of the things that you could do to help spread the word about what you do and so on is do your own podcast.   Ashley Rudolph ** 1:03:50 Yes, something else to think about, yeah, yeah, that's a great idea. And then if I do then I will invite you on there. I'd   Speaker 1 ** 1:04:00 love it, I'll come absolutely well. I want to thank you again, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching today. This has been very enjoyable and a lot of fun, and I appreciate you taking the time to be with us. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at Michael H i@accessibe.com so accessibi is spelled A, C, C, E, S, S i, B, E, so Michael M, I C H, A, E, L, H i@accessibe.com or go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast and Michael hingson is m, I C H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s o n.com/podcast, love to hear from you, and certainly I hope that whenever you're listening or watching, give us a five star rating. We value your reviews, and we really want to know that we're doing good by you, so please give us good reviews, and if you have thoughts or things that you want us to know about, don't hesitate to reach out. It. And for all of you, and Ashley, including you, if you know of other people who ought to be guests on our podcast, it's so much fun to meet more people from those who have been on before. But for anyone, if you know someone who ought to be a guest, please let me know. Reach out, and we will honor your interest and we will bring them on, because I think everyone has, as I told Ashley earlier, stories to tell. So hope that you will do that and that we'll get to see you on our next episode. And again, Ashley, I just want to thank you for being here. This has been so much fun. All   Ashley Rudolph ** 1:05:37 right, thank you, Michael.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:05:42 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

In Episode 138 of White Canes Connect, hosts Lisa Bryant and David Goldstein welcome back Shawn Callaway, President of both the National Federation of the Blind of the District of Columbia and the National Organization of Blind Black Leaders (NOBBL). Shawn shares updates on NOBBL's growth, programming, and plans for the upcoming National Convention in New Orleans. He reflects on the organization's journey from its roots in the DEI Committee in 2018 to its official division status in 2022. Shawn highlights NOBBL's active committees, including groups for Black women, men, seniors, elected leaders, and HBCU outreach. He emphasizes NOBBL's mission to create space for Black blind voices within both the Federation and the broader community, building partnerships with groups like the National Council of Negro Women and launching their first national convention community service project. The conversation also touches on NOBBL's role in supporting Black blind students through scholarships, mentoring first-time convention attendees, and building leadership pipelines for the future. With over 150 active members and packed convention meetings, NOBBL continues to grow and push for greater visibility and inclusion. Shawn closes with a tease of something big coming in 2026—and a friendly rivalry with Eagles fans. The NOBBLmeeting at National Convention is Thursday at 6:00 PM CDT in Gallery 5. Use the #NFB25 app for any last minute changes and to create your own schedule at convention. Show notes at https://www.whitecanesconnect.com/138  Links Mentioned Interested in joining NOBBL? Email diversity@nfb.org for more information Have you checked out Federation Focus yet? https://www.youtube.com/@nfbofpa/  Women Healed For A Purpose Author Cirde Join WHFAP "She Writes" panel discussion & bits and pieces from the panelist's work. July 5, 2025 / 11:00am-1:00pm Park Towers Community Room 4001 Conshohocken Ave., Phila., PA 19131 (you know the place). Invite others and share the information please.  Panelists are: RuNett Nia Ebo - Poet Michele A. Vann Rebecca Rush Delvia Berrian Mary Washam Click here to register: https://forms.gle/bZntyTf9mMZk9Wnu7 Registration is free  An Easy Way to Help the NFB of PA Support the NFB of PA with every purchase at White Cane Coffee Company by going to https://www.whitecanecoffee.com/ref/nfbp. When you use that link to purchase from White Cane Coffee, the NFB of PA earns a 10% commission! Share the link with your family and friends! Listen to Erin and Bob Willman from White Cane Coffee on episode 072 of White Canes Connect. Donate to the NFB of PA Like what you hear on White Canes Connect? Support us and donate to the National Federation of the Blind of Pennsylvania, visit https://www.NFBofPA.org/give/. We Want to Hear Your Story Reach out with questions and comments, or share ideas! We want to hear from you. Call us at (267) 338-4495 or at whitecanesconnect@gmail.com. Follow White Canes Connect Find out why White Canes Connect is currently ranked at #13 of the 100 Best Visually Impaired Podcast. Find the show on: Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/white-canes-connect/id1592248709  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1YDQSJqpoteGb1UMPwRSuI  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@pablindpodcast 

Today, June 27, 2025 is national PTSD Day in the United States. It is a timely day to release this episode as you will see.   As a result of my appearance on a podcast I had the honor to meet Kara Joubert and invited her to be a guest here on Unstoppable Mindset. She accepted. Little did I know at the time how unstoppable she was and how much she has faced in life even only at the age of 21. Kara tells us that she loved to draw and was even somewhat compulsive about it. At the age of seven she was diagnosed as being on the Autism spectrum. She speculates that her intense interest in drawing came partly from autism. However, fear not. She still draws a lot to this day. What we learn near the end of our time with Kara is that her father was a graphic artist. So, drawing comes, I think, quite honestly.   While Kara does not go into much detail, she tells us she experienced a severe trauma as a child which led to her having Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. She did not receive a diagnosis of PTSD until she was seventeen when she began seeing a therapist. By the time her condition was identified she had to leave school and went into home schooling.   As we learn, Kara did well in her exams after home schooling and went onto University in England where she was raised. After her first year studying journalism and unofficially studying film making Kara was selected as one of three students to take a year abroad of learning in Brisbane Australia. We caught up with Kara to do our podcast during her time in Brisbane.   Already as a student Kara has written three short films and directed two of them. Quite the unstoppable mindset by any standard.   Kara willingly shares much about her life and discusses in depth a great deal about PTSD. I know you will find her comments insightful and relevant.     About the Guest:   At 21 years old, Kara Joubert is a keen advocate for the power of storytelling. Based in the UK, she is a journalist and filmmaker who has written three short films and directed two of them. Her academic journey has taken her to Australia, and her enthusiasm for filmmaking has led her to Hollywood film sets.    Kara is drawn to the stories of others. She believes that everyone carries a “backstory” and values the strength it takes to overcome personal challenges. She thinks that a victory doesn't have to be dramatic, rather, it's any moment where someone chooses courage over comfort. Her own greatest victory has been learning to overcome anxiety.    Throughout her life, Kara has faced significant mental health challenges. She developed post-traumatic stress disorder at a young age, which went undiagnosed until she was 17. Later, she was also diagnosed with obsessive-compulsive disorder and social anxiety disorder. Her teenage years were filled with fear and isolation, sometimes resulting in her being unable to leave the house.     Today, Kara lives with a renewed sense of freedom. After undergoing cognitive behavioural therapy, she now embraces life with a confidence and courage her younger self never could have imagined. She is now a successful university student who has travelled far beyond her comfort zone, with the intention of sharing hope and her enthusiasm for filmmaking.  Kara's mission is to inspire others through journalism, filmmaking, and podcasting. Ways to connect with Kara:   Website: karajoubert.com On social media: kara joubert media   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:16 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to have a conversation with a person who clearly, by any means and definition, is unstoppable in a lot of ways. Kara Juubert is 21 she says, so who's going to argue with that? And she has already written three films, directed to she's very much into film and journalism and other such things. She is from England, but she is now in Australia. She has faced major trauma and challenges in her life, and she has overcome them already, and I'm not going to say more until we get into a discussion about it, but we'll get there. So, Kara, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're   Kara Joubert ** 02:15 here. Thank you so happy to be here. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:19 it's our pleasure and our honor. So why don't you start by telling us a little bit about kind of the early car growing up. You know, you obviously were born somewhere and and all that sort of stuff. But tell us a little about the early Kara,   Kara Joubert ** 02:34 oh, the early days. Kara, season one. Kara, sure, you was in the beginning, yes, she was an interesting child, and I look back with a degree of fondness, she was quite a creative individual, and I enjoyed drawing obsessively and all things creative and expressive, even in my younger days, I was sort of brought up in around the London area, or I say London, which is more of a generalization, to be specific, which is a place not many have heard of. And within that space, I grew up in a loving family and had supportive parents. I've got two younger siblings as well. And yes, early days, Kara, she was someone who really loved her family. I still love my family, happy to say. And yeah, grew up in this supportive environment, but she had a few things to work through, as I'm sure what   Michael Hingson ** 03:43 we will get into. So when did you start? How old were you when you started drawing?   Kara Joubert ** 03:49 Oh, um, since I could pick up a pencil,   Michael Hingson ** 03:54 she could pick up a pencil. So pretty young, yeah,   Kara Joubert ** 03:57 very young. I can't, I can't give you the exact timestamp, but it was very early on, and it was very obsessive. And in part, the obsession here is what got me into my autism diagnosis. Funnily enough, it's not your standard obsession related to autism, but I was always occupied with drawing something somewhere, and in my very young days, that would have been the walls. Thankfully, my parents managed to move me to paper. And   Michael Hingson ** 04:33 yes, that's fair. So what did you draw?   Kara Joubert ** 04:37 What kind of pictures? Yeah, everything that I could see really, and I was a perfectionist from a very young age, and I'm sure there were several tantrums tied to the fact that I couldn't quite get something right. But yes, I thoroughly enjoyed drawing what I saw around. Me, and I would say, yes, with that obsessive mindset does definitely come a degree of perfectionism. And look, I love drawing to this day, certainly. And I wouldn't say I'm terrible at it, but it was something, yeah, that really, I think, liberated my younger self, because she did struggle that season one car with socializing and drawing was just this amazing escape.   Michael Hingson ** 05:25 Well, you had 19 or 20 years to practice drawing, so hopefully you would be pretty good.   Kara Joubert ** 05:32 Yeah, I should hope so have something to show for it.   Michael Hingson ** 05:36 So you kind of, to a degree, sort of hid behind or within your drawings, or around your drawings, and you let them kind of be your voice, definitely,   Kara Joubert ** 05:47 absolutely. And that did move on to writing further along the line, where poetry became a massive form of self expression. And at times that did get me into trouble, but again, it was that creative outlet that really does help, I think, someone understand their own feelings the world around them. There's a great joy in being able to do these things. So   Michael Hingson ** 06:19 what kind of trouble did it get you into or, how did it get you into trouble, just because you focused so much on it? Or,   Kara Joubert ** 06:27 um, well, there was, there's a specific example I'll give. When I was in secondary school, it wasn't a great time of my life, and the school itself was quite problematic. And I was told, you know, I need to create something for a showcase, which takes place, I think, every spring. And I was told I need to make a poem, because apparently I was reasonably good at that, and I did. But the thing is, I couldn't force any feelings of, I suppose, happiness or joy that I didn't feel because at the time, I was being bullied by both teachers and students, and I didn't have any friends and felt very isolated. So I created a poem, which is, you know, which discussed my feelings here, and I did throw a happy ending to that poem, because I think even then, I understood that there's always hope for a better day. So it was, however, the, I suppose, depiction of my negative feelings at the time, the fact that I was quite openly saying I don't fit in the school, and I feel unaccepted, in so many words that eventually I would say was a massive catalyst in getting me not kicked out of the school. Socially, kicked out of the school. I kicked myself out at a certain point because the teachers had said there was no hope I was going to need to be put into an special education stream. And my parents took me out. But part of the reason for them taking me out was this isolation, and the isolation did increase after I'd read this poem aloud. It was at that point where the community, I think, decided that I was and my family were not welcome.   Michael Hingson ** 08:28 How did your parents cope with all that?   Kara Joubert ** 08:31 My parents, they took it head on. And you know, I will say that Sure, there are two sides to every story here. And I don't know under what pressures the teachers were under, but certainly they did make life quite difficult, because it wasn't just me, it was my youngest siblings as well who were going into this school, and I think they tried to keep the peace for so long, but there was a point where they realized, actually, it would be better for all of us as a unit, as a family, to try other schools would go, you know, further outside of this community, and we couldn't get into the School, or I couldn't get into the school that I wanted, which led into homeschooling, so I was electively homeschooled.   Michael Hingson ** 09:30 Well, you talked a little bit about in our previous conversations and so on, the fact that you had some PTSD. What caused that?   Kara Joubert ** 09:41 So the PTSD was caused by a trauma in my youth. I was around 10 years old, and that led to, I suppose, even more anxiety than perhaps I'd felt in my younger days. And I was a very anxious kid from the onset. Yeah, but then this trauma occurred, which did involve the fear of dying. It involved a lot of things among that, and it was a lot for me to process. And I'll admit, it took a long time for me to be able to get to a point where I could say, All right, I need any therapy. And that was the best change I've ever made in my lifestyle. Was moving into therapy. But I think the PTSD did by the time I moved into therapy, it did have a negative impact in quite a few aspects of my life, and I think my schooling was one of them. Looking back, teachers saw someone who might have been a little distracted at times, who might have zoned out every once in a while, and seemed overall very anxious, and they could have read that as anti social. And I wanted to socialize. I really did. It's just there were things going on in my mind which I didn't realize as having such a strong hold over my life as it did.   Michael Hingson ** 11:13 And then the result was all that you were viewed as different,   Kara Joubert ** 11:19 yes, and the feeling of being different is something that stuck with me for I think, all of my life, even now, it's just when I was a child that was more of a negative thing, and in my teenagehood, I think every teenager feels different, but when I was a young kid, I can recall feeling with this autism like I'm living in a glass box, unsure of how to interact with people on the other side. And with the PTSD, that box felt like a cage. It was just an extra layer of fear put onto my I suppose, social anxiety, which made it even more difficult to connect.   Michael Hingson ** 12:00 So how did the PTSD manifest itself?   Kara Joubert ** 12:05 Right? So, PTSD has a lot of symptoms that can come with it, and it's different for every person. For me, this was a lot of nightmares. You know, it got to a point where I was actually afraid to fall asleep, but so tired that it was difficult to cope in any case. So nightmares was a big one, intrusive thoughts is another, and this accompanied a diagnosis of OCD. So with PTSD comes other sort of baggage, and that can be social anxiety, that can be OCD, a lot of people talk about this experience of reliving the trauma, or at least being in this overall sort of heightened sense of anxiety and fear, apprehension, I think is probably a good word, just being on edge, on the lower, I suppose, end of the spectrum, although dreadful though it is, and then on the higher end, feeling as though they are actually physically reliving whatever the trauma was that first occurred to them. And trauma can come through a variety of ways. I mean, one thing I would say to people about PTSD is never assume someone's trauma, because it can lead from physical abuse to emotional abuse, to sexual abuse, accidents, illness, and there are other things as well. You can get secondhand trauma from someone else, and that can develop PTSD as well. But in my case, yeah, it was a variety of symptoms, but the massive one, I would say, was extreme anxiety and fear.   Michael Hingson ** 13:55 What caused that?   Kara Joubert ** 13:57 What caused that? So PTSD is, and I can say this as someone who has,   Kara Joubert ** 14:06 and I believe being healed from PTSD, it no longer impacts me the way that it used to is it impacts the brain in very interesting ways. And once you start to look into the science of it and understand it, it makes sense. So within the brain, there are different sort of segments that deal with different aspects of life. And the part of the brain, the amygdala, I believe that deals with extreme, you know, fear, anxiety. It deals with sort of traumatic instances. It is perhaps not as I don't want to say developed. It takes these experiences and stores them, but it doesn't do much good for the timestamp. It doesn't understand. Of the fact that this has passed, it sort of holds on to this memory as if it's in the present, which is why you get these sort of reliving experiences as someone with PTSD, and why it can be quite difficult to move away from a trauma. Because in a sense, it feels like you're still reliving it.   Michael Hingson ** 15:20 Were you able to talk about it at all, like with your parents?   Kara Joubert ** 15:24 Yeah, absolutely. Um, I've already said, you know, had a very supportive family, and although they didn't quite understand it as I also didn't understand it. I mean, I was undiagnosed for a number of years. For a reason, they were always happy to support and offer hope, and it was that hope that I really had to cling on to for so many of my teenage years, because when you're stuck in that really dark place, it's difficult to fathom something that you can't see. Yeah, they took to the diagnosis very well. I think if anything, there was a sense of relief, because we understood what was going on at that point, and then it was a case of, okay, now, now we can work around this. And that's one thing that I think is so important when it comes to diagnosis, a diagnosis, is, is the start of something. There are cases where you can actually mitigate the effects of whatever that diagnosis is. And in such cases, it's great to be able to pursue that. You know, a diagnosis isn't the end. It's not a case of, I've got PTSD. Oh, well, I guess I'll live with that for the rest of my life. No, because there are ways to resolve this. There are ways to work through it.   Michael Hingson ** 16:50 So you mentioned earlier you were also diagnosed with autism. Did that contribute to all of the the PTSD and the obsessive compulsive behavior. Do you think I   Kara Joubert ** 17:03 think there might have been some crossover, and I don't know as to how much of an effect the autism had on my PTSD, because PTSD is born of a trauma response, and anyone can experience that and react adversely to it. It isn't dependent on autistic factors. I mean, I'm sure there is some research into this, and it'll be really interesting to look into, but I didn't, at least see it as a correlated sort of diagnosis, I think with OCD, though, there was definitely some crossover. And I do remember my therapist discussing this very briefly, that there is, you know, when you when you have one diagnosis, sometimes you get a few in there as well. And the full reaction was the OCD, social anxiety disorder and autism. So I almost had the full alphabet for a while.   Michael Hingson ** 18:03 Yeah, definitely, in a lot of ways, definitely. So how old were you when the autism was diagnosed or discovered? For sure,   Kara Joubert ** 18:15 I was seven years old, and that diagnosis was difficult to get. My mom had to fight for it, because a child who draws isn't your standard example of someone who was autistic, right? It was probably more obvious in how I handle social interactions, which was I handle social interactions I did have the tools, didn't understand sort of the almost unwritten rules of socializing, where I'm sort of expected to just know how to socialize, how to interact, and I think younger me would have benefited from a how to guide. But yeah, that's probably evident.   Michael Hingson ** 19:01 Unfortunately, a lot of these things exist, and nobody's written the manuals for them. So what do you do?   Kara Joubert ** 19:09 Yep, that's it. Get an autism guide.   Michael Hingson ** 19:12 An autism guide. Well, maybe AI nowadays can help with that. Who knows? Movie maybe. But   Kara Joubert ** 19:19 AI's got a few things to say about you, and I can't say they're all accurate. It says your first guide dog was Hell,   Michael Hingson ** 19:25 yeah. Well, it doesn't always get things exactly right. Roselle was number five. Squire was number one. So you know, hopefully, though, over time, it learns and it will not exhibit trauma and it will not be autistic, but we'll see   Kara Joubert ** 19:44 we shall. We shall destroy us all. That's the other hope. Well, there's   Michael Hingson ** 19:50 that too. So how old were you when you were PTSD was actually diagnosed.   Kara Joubert ** 19:56 I was 17.   Michael Hingson ** 20:00 So that was a long time after the the autism. So how did you finally decide to go see a therapist or or go down that road? I   Kara Joubert ** 20:14 think it just got bad enough, and we know a therapist through a family friend. And you know, I was having all of these symptoms. And I think it was my mum who reached out on my behalf and said, Look, is this is this normal at all for someone in her position, to which the therapist replied, Yes, actually. And you know what that first confirmation that I am, I want to say normal. Let's not overuse the word, because, I think, considered, it's probably the incorrect term to use. At least the symptoms were persistent with someone who had gone through what I had. And, yeah, I mean, all in good time. I think there will be a time where I can explain the trauma in greater detail. But today, at least, it's just a case of, you know, this is PTSD. This is what it feels like. And this, I am living proof that there is light on the other end of the tunnel. Because for a long time, I knew what that dark place looked like, and being able to live free of that, you know, just on a day to day basis, I can't help but be completely overwhelmed with gratitude.   Michael Hingson ** 21:44 So I think from what you've said, There was a time when you really felt that you were different from the people around you. When was that? At what point did you feel that way?   Kara Joubert ** 21:57 I do think this would have been i I can, I can recall two separate times. The first would have been when I was much younger, and I felt like I was living in that glass box. I didn't know how to cross the bridge. And it did feel like there was this barrier between myself and other people and that social, I suppose anxiety I knew was not normal, and I didn't feel as though, I suppose, had the tools. I didn't know how to use them, I think even if I was given them, and I for that reason, I did have to be taken out of school, because my anxiety got to a point where it was just completely overwhelming. And in my teenage years, I think it was probably standing among peers, seeing all these people interact, and I'm thinking, why aren't they afraid? Is there something so inherently different about me, that I'm constantly living in this state of fear.   Michael Hingson ** 23:08 Yeah, but at some point you realize that while there was a difference and it wasn't normal, you must have figured out that's something that you can address and hopefully resolve, I assume,   Kara Joubert ** 23:27 yeah, and it was that hope that carried me through. I would say I am a Christian, and within sort of the Christian sphere, you hear a lot about God's good plans, and although I didn't see it at the time, I had to put hope and faith that one day things were going to get better. I don't know where I would have been otherwise   Michael Hingson ** 23:57 So, but you must have at least also assume that things would get better, that that is, in part, comes from your faith, of course,   Kara Joubert ** 24:07 yeah, absolutely. And I didn't know when that was going to be, and I didn't know what that was going to look like. It looks a lot better than I thought it was going to be. And I'm happy to say that as far as fearing, anxiety is concerned, it's very rare I'd feel either these days that's I mean, people define miracles in all sorts of ways, but considering where I was, I do consider that a miracle.   Michael Hingson ** 24:42 Well, when you were diagnosed and so on, how did the people around you react? Or did you tell them? Or other than, obviously you your family knew, Did did you use that information to help you with others? Or how did all that go?   Kara Joubert ** 24:59 Yeah, I. Um, so I, I didn't have many friends in my teenage years, so there wasn't that many people to tell, to be honest. But certainly, as I have grown older and been able to be surrounded by more human beings and socialize with them and interact with them, I'm actually finding that this is this is a really beneficial experience two way, because I'm able to have the joy of interacting with others, and in certain cases, I will share the PTSD and the you know, corresponding perhaps experience with trauma, which had elements of both a fear of fear of dying and sexual trauma as well. So a lot of people undergo, unfortunately, these sorts of things at some point in their life. The current stat in the UK is one in 13 children have PTSD, and one in 10 adults will at some point experience PTSD. That is quite a high portion of the population. So, yeah. I mean, I have, yeah, absolutely. And it's something that I do wish people would talk about more because you get perhaps more attractive diagnoses. PTSD isn't one of them. It's quite ugly from at least that point of view. But look, I'm a firm believer in the potential that a human being has to overcome their trauma and to be liberated from the past. So I will share my experience with some people. It tends to be select audiences, because I understand that it's quite difficult for some people to hear and I look I always want to approach it with a point of view of uplifting someone in and imparting hope and support, because hope is good and all. But sometimes support is just as important, and being able to tell people to get help, find help, find therapeutic help, is very important,   Michael Hingson ** 27:24 since you come from a background of faith, which I think is extremely important. But can you absolutely really cure PTSD? Or is it something that will always be there, or because you have faith in the knowledge that you do, you can truly say I've cured it.   Kara Joubert ** 27:44 Well, I will say this, the faith kept me hoping for a good future. Therapy gave me the healing, and then to go full circle, faith also gave me peace. Closer to the end, it's as far as time loose ends, emotionally speaking and in therapy, you're taught to deal with the trauma as it is currently known, or at least I was, through a cognitive behavioral therapy, which is sort of a talking based therapy. And there are some triggers that might come through every once in a while, but it is completely possible to be healed, to be cured from PTSD, and this is generally through therapy,   Michael Hingson ** 28:32 as it was for me, right? And it's ultimately, although through therapy, it's a growth issue, and you've obviously grown a lot to be able to deal with this.   Kara Joubert ** 28:45 Yeah, absolutely. And I will say one thing about people with or who have overcome PTSD that I have seen is they have, I suppose, automatically been put through quite a lot, but then the growth journey is something that you know gives that person quite a lot more courage, perhaps, than someone else in their ears, just based on experience and life experience. I will say to people you know, it wasn't the trauma that made me strong, it was, it was the healing afterwards, because former itself can be pretty dire, but then on the other end of that, I'm able to take this experience and help others who have experienced something similar, and also go through life on a day to day basis, perhaps more aware of the hidden battles that people face, and that degree of empathy is quite important, I think, for someone of my position, who it loves to write, who loves to make films, it's all about telling the human story, and sometimes that means. Going down a layer or two,   Michael Hingson ** 30:04 yeah, well, but I think the ultimate thing is that you did it. You chose to do it however it happened. You eventually gave thought to this isn't the way it really should be looking at everyone else and you made a decision to find a way to go forward.   Kara Joubert ** 30:26 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, humans are amazing creatures at adapting, but I think sometimes that can be to our own detriment, where we adapt to what is a bad situation, and we live with that, thinking this is the norm. This is the standard that we've got to endure when actually, if things aren't good, it's well worth looking into a better future, a better alternative. Because, look, you can view this from a faith based point of view, or you can view this from a more therapeutic science back point of view, I think everyone is capable of healing with the right tools, and that's worth investing,   Michael Hingson ** 31:13 yeah, well, and the reality is that it should probably be some of both, because they're, they are, in a sense, related. The science is great, but ultimately you have to have the conviction. And as you point out, you you have it from faith, and there's, there's a lot of value in that, but ultimately it comes from the fact that you had the conviction that you could deal with it. And I think however you were brought to that place, and however you actually worked to make it happen, you ultimately are the one that made it happen   Kara Joubert ** 31:54 that's very well put. No, I appreciate that. Yeah, it's been quite an experience, but I know that it's one that has the potential to show others exactly that, that through hope, through therapy, no one is broken beyond repair. That's my belief, at least   Michael Hingson ** 32:24 well, so I assume you are not in therapy today.   Kara Joubert ** 32:29 No, I am not. Sometimes I'll catch up with my therapist, though he is such a decent guy and therapists, they're there to help you out. So automatically, I think they're quite invested, shall we say, in your life story. So I will occasionally catch up with him, but not necessarily, because I absolutely have to. Every once in a while, I might book a session, just because I say this to everyone I meet. I think everyone needs therapy to an extent, and it's good to check in every once in a while. But as far as necessity is concerned, no, I tend to be pretty okay these days.   Michael Hingson ** 33:11 Well, there you go. So what is your life like today?   Kara Joubert ** 33:15 Oh, today it is, can I say it's incredible, is that, all right, sure,   Kara Joubert ** 33:23 you get people, you ask them how they're going, they say, not bad. You know what? It's more than not bad. It's actually pretty good on this end. And I am, as you've said, I'm in Australia. I'm actually studying abroad, which is something I would never have imagined being able to do previously, as someone who was terrified to leave her house. And yeah, I've just finished my studies for my second year, and it's been a wonderful year, which has included a few lovely surprises along the way. So yeah, things are going pretty well.   Michael Hingson ** 33:55 Well is, is this the time to say that we're having this conversation. And for you down in Brisbane, it's 604, in the morning. So Good on you for being awake early. I mean, I know the feeling well,   Kara Joubert ** 34:12 Ah, man, it's all good. It's all good. I was saying to you before the podcast. Are no better reason to wake up bright and breezy than to be on your podcast here today,   Michael Hingson ** 34:21 listen to her spokes well. Thank you. Well, I, I get up early. My wife passed away in November of 2022, I was the morning person. She was more of an evening person. And we, we had a we worked all that out. So we, we all did well. But since she passed, and I do tend to do a lot of work with people on the East Coast looking for speaking engagements and so on. I get up at 430 in the morning, and I'm slow at it, at deliberately slow at getting up and getting dressed, feeding the dog, Alan. And feeding our kitty. Stitch, my kitty now stitch, and then I eat breakfast. So I spend a couple of hours doing all that. And it's neat not to have to rush, but it is nice to be up and look at the morning. And so when I open the door and let Alamo go outside, by that time, usually, at least in the summer, in the late spring, and in the fall, the autumn, the birds are chirping. So I'll go, Hi birds. What's going on, you know? And it's fun to do that sort of thing.   Kara Joubert ** 35:32 Yeah, it's nice to be up before the world is awake. I will say that I'm not normally a morning person, but I'm considering converting because this is actually lovely and quiet. It feels quite peaceful. I mean, yeah, the birds are Troy, but I will say this, Michael, I think the Australian birds sound quite different to your birds, because I'm sure saying, I don't think it's good morning. Well, that   Michael Hingson ** 35:57 or maybe we're doing something and you're disturbing us, but it's still still good to talk to them and tell them hello. No, they respond to that. I had a job working for a company once where I was the first into the office, and it was all selling to the east coast from the West Coast, so I got up at like four in the morning. And for six months, my wife Karen had to drive me 45 miles because we hadn't moved down to it yet, 45 miles to go from home to where I worked, to be there at six. And then she came back up and she did that, and it was great because we also read a lot of audio books as we were going down the freeway. That was relatively empty. But yeah, it is nice to be up in the morning, and that is what I tend to do, and I enjoy it. It's it's fun to be up playing with the puppy dog and and, and the kitty as well. But, you know, it's just part of what makes the day a good day. And they, they're definitely part of what brighten up my day. I have to say,   Kara Joubert ** 37:10 that's fantastic. How do they brighten up each other's day? A cat and a dog? Do they get along pretty   Michael Hingson ** 37:15 well. They get along well, but they, I don't know that they brighten each other's day. Other than that. They know each other exists, and they're happy about that. They rub noses occasionally. They talk to each other, okay, all right, I would never want a guide dog that had any animosity toward a cat, and I've always said that whenever I've had to to deal with getting a new guide dog album is going to be around for quite a while yet, but I've always said I do not want an animal that hasn't been raised around a cat. They have to do that because I just don't want to deal with that. I've seen some guide dogs that were absolute cat haters, and I would never want that.   Kara Joubert ** 37:57 No, of course. So to all animals, and also, I can imagine, from a practical point of view, he taking Alamo on a walk, and Alamo sees a cat and bolts off. That's going to be very inconvenient for all parties concerned.   Michael Hingson ** 38:11 Well, he could try to bolt off, he wouldn't succeed, but he but he doesn't, so it's okay. My fourth guide dog, Lenny, loved to chase rabbits and not to hurt them, but they're different. She wants to play with them. And you know, so this, it's cute. Well, so you You've talked a lot about having PTSD and so on, but what are some misconceptions that people typically have? You've talked about it being crazy and about it being misunderstood. Tell us a little bit more about how to understand and what, what are the misconceptions, and how do we deal with that?   Kara Joubert ** 38:48 Of course. So most of the times we see PTSD betrayed, it's on the television, and really only see two symptoms, at least from my viewing, which are flashbacks and nightmares. But PTSD can look different for different people. And although, yes, these are symptoms, and they are quite common symptoms, there are plenty of others. So anger, depression, anxiety, intrusive thoughts, OCD, these are all symptomatic of PTSD or an unresolved trauma. So I would recommend people doing some more research, perhaps into PTSD if they are curious about the full list of symptoms, certainly. But yeah, another misconception, I would say, lies in the assumption over what that trauma was. I would say assumption is the enemy of wisdom and the food of ignorance. And people can get PTSD for a variety of reasons. We've talked a little bit about those. You can even sort of get it from knowing someone who's experienced a trauma.   Michael Hingson ** 39:56 And I like that. You know, assumption is. Say that again,   Kara Joubert ** 40:02 assumption is the enemy of wisdom and the food of ignorance,   Michael Hingson ** 40:07 enemy of wisdom and food of ignorance. Yeah, there you   Kara Joubert ** 40:11 go. I won't even copyright it. It's all yours.   Michael Hingson ** 40:17 That's okay, yeah,   Kara Joubert ** 40:18 okay. Well, that's good to hear. No. The other thing is, PTSD can go away. It's not a lifelong mental health condition, or at least it doesn't have to be. And people who have PTSD, I think there's more awareness of this now, but sometimes long standing prejudices can can linger. And people who have PTSD, I mean, it seems obvious to say, but they're not weak. They are traumatized, but this is just one part of their story, and it's a part that can, through therapy, through the right sort of support systems, be healed. All humans are complex, and I don't think anyone should be solely defined on their diagnosis, because a diagnosis isn't an identity. It's a part of the identity. But sometimes this is a part, and in the case of PTSD, it's a part that can be healed. The last thing is, you know, it affects a massive number of the population. We've spoken a bit about the statistics before. PTSD, UK says that one in 10 people are expected to experience PTSD in their lifetime. That's 10% which is pretty high for something that, in my mind, at least, isn't spoken about as often as other conditions, such as autism, such as ADHD, that tend to get a lot of the talking points spotlight that we see in media. So those are a few of the misconceptions. I would say,   Michael Hingson ** 41:59 when you meet or encounter someone, how do you know whether they're dealing with PTSD or not? Or is that something that people can tell and kind of the reason for asking that is one of the questions that basically comes up is, what are some good and bad ways to deal with someone who has PTSD? But how do you even know in the first place?   Kara Joubert ** 42:21 That's a good question. I think sometimes it can be a little more obvious. Again, I would avoid any assumptions. Even if someone has experienced something traumatic, it doesn't mean that they will automatically get PTSD. This doesn't affect everyone who's gone through a trauma. It does show through in some physical ways. In my experience, someone who is quite perhaps disconnected and among the more obvious symptoms, perhaps panic attacks, relating to triggers and these are some of the ways you can see someone who has PTSD, but generally, the only way you will truly know is if that person says, or you're a therapist and you're able to do a diagnosis, there's that duration, but that would be quite A challenge, I think, for any therapist to undertake So certainly it can show through, but I do think the only way you'll really be able to know is if a person discloses that information with you.   Michael Hingson ** 43:35 So if there are people listening to us today who have or think they have PTSD. What would you say to them?   Kara Joubert ** 43:45 I would say you are not broken beyond repair. And it's so easy to take blame upon yourself for the trauma that we carry, and it's easy to think that this is just a part of yourself that you you need to hold on to, as in, internalize in such a way that hopelessness can sometimes be, unfortunately, a part of that. But maybe you are. You know, going back to it's easy to take blame upon yourself, it's undeserved, because maybe you were at the wrong plane place at the wrong time, or you trusted someone and they betrayed that trust. But the power of hindsight comes only after, not during. Is one thing I will people with PTSD, and then was a time of survival. You know, you did what you could to the best of your abilities at the time, but now is the time for healing, and it can be scary opening up, but in doing so, particularly through therapy, you realize just how normal you are, no matter how different, how ice. Related sort of these thoughts and feelings our emotions are, I mean, to go back to my story, I genuinely felt like my head was imploding every single day, and the only time of peace I really got was between waking up that split second after waking up and realizing I had another day to get through. That was the only time where I truly felt at ease. And you know, going back to you are not broken beyond repair, the brain is amazing. And I would say to people with PTSD, yes, your brain is amazing, but it's been holding on to the survival mechanism, and if it's been causing you pain and fear, then I, you know, implore you to consider that there is hope, and despite the lies that our heads can sometimes tell you, are capable of healing with the right tools. Now, I would say, if the symptoms of PTSD feel relevant to people listening, or even if they suspect something is wrong, regardless of whether they can identify a trauma or not, because sometimes these things are really hidden in the back of our heads, I would suggest looking into therapy. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy did a world of good. For me. There are other forms of therapy, but for me, that was very effective, and although not everyone's healing journey is the same, I would recommend people to just get help. That is the bottom line. If I could summarize in two words, get help. And I say this as someone who got help and it has made a world of massive difference   Michael Hingson ** 46:40 in my life, how long were you in therapy?   Kara Joubert ** 46:43 Oh, good question. I would say, probably for about, let's see, for about two years. But then, as far as, like the actual PTSD is concerned, the most confronting part of therapy, because it isn't the most comfortable process tackling trauma, the more difficult parts of therapy probably lasted for about, I want to say, six months, but that was six months of improvement. That wasn't just six months of feeling nothing but sort of frustration and distress. No I saw in those six months, even within the first week, even I saw there was improvement, but yeah, as far as, like, the hardcore processing of the PTSD that probably lasted for about six months to a year, and then I still went to therapy for some time after that, but by that point, the symptoms had definitely diminished quite a bit.   Michael Hingson ** 47:49 Okay, well, if we're going to get real serious, so are you drawing still today?   Kara Joubert ** 47:55 Oh, that's most difficult question you've asked me on this. I still do. Yes, I I would show you a few of my drawings, but I think that would be a fruitless pursuit. Yes, well,   Michael Hingson ** 48:09 some people can see them on on YouTube. But what do you draw today?   Kara Joubert ** 48:13 Are you recording this visually as well for Okay, well, in that case, for the folks back home, but if   Michael Hingson ** 48:18 you're going to hold them up, you have to tell us what they are, for those of us who don't see them. Yeah,   Kara Joubert ** 48:22 see them, of course, of course. So I've definitely expanded my horizons since drawing. I also do watercolor and acrylic and oil anything sort of artsy I absolutely love. And I'm holding to the camera now, sort of a small, a, well, I say small, it's about an a Ford sized picture of a whale. But within that whale, I have drawn, not drawn, sorry, painted a watercolor galaxy. Oh, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 49:01 So the whale. So the whale is the the border of the galaxy,   Kara Joubert ** 49:05 exactly, and it's surrounded by white so this is one of my cheat paintings, because it's quite easy to do, but yeah, I have drawn quite a few other things. My dad was a graphic sorry. My dad was a graphic designer, so I've I'm going to blame that side of the genetic pool for interest.   Michael Hingson ** 49:28 Or you can say you came by it quite honestly, which is fair,   Kara Joubert ** 49:34 maybe a combination of both.   Michael Hingson ** 49:35 So you, you decided, so you, went through homeschooling, and did you get a diploma like people normally do in school? Or how does all that work with homeschooling?   Kara Joubert ** 49:49 Yeah, so homeschooling is probably another thing that has a few misconceptions attached to it, but truth be told, everyone's approach is different. So, yes, you will still get the homeschooled family who, you know, focus mostly on things such as sewing and cooking and doing all that. I would, I would recommend people don't assume automatically, that's what homeschooling looks like. I've been given that assumption before, that oh, I'm homeschooled. That must mean I'm, like, really good at cooking I am, but not because of the homeschooling. I did sit my GCSEs, which I'm not sure what the equivalent is in America, but it's the exams you sit when you're around 16. And I did reasonably okay, I would say I also sat them a bit early because I could so as to get that out of the way. And then, as for my A levels, which is the next set of exams, I chose sociology, politics and law as my three subjects, and I did pretty okay in those as well. I got 2b and a C, which, you know, I can't, I can't scoff at that. I was very close to getting two A's and a B, and that's, that's something I've I've since let go, because now, starting university, I am pretty much an A student. So going back to the teachers who said I couldn't, ha, ha,   Michael Hingson ** 51:31 yeah, you should go visit your your former teachers, and say, Hey, check this out.   Kara Joubert ** 51:36 The school might the school's been shut down since then. So   Michael Hingson ** 51:40 um, there you go see So, yeah, good decisions,   Kara Joubert ** 51:44 more than that, but yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 51:48 well, so what are you studying in university?   Kara Joubert ** 51:51 Yes, so I'm studying, I'd say mostly two things, one officially and one unofficially. Officially, I'm studying journalism. That is what my degree, and that has been so much fun. I mean, it's through the journalism course that we actually first met, because you were a guest on Alex left hooks podcast, and that's when first introduced. So I and I was on that podcast because of my journalism studies, at least that's how I met Alex myself, and it's been such a fun experience of being able to speak with a variety of people. And from going going from someone's social anxiety to going to a place where I actually love speaking to people is another massive change, and the journalism degree has been great in sort of pushing me out of my comfort zone from that point of view. And now I love talking to people, as you might or may not have already gathered, and unofficially, I'm studying filmmaking. So, oh, I've got the journalism side of things, but then I will. I can't use the word sneak, because the lecturers, the film lecturers, know I'm there, but I will go to certain film lectures and screenwriting seminars. And through sort of this extracurricular pursuit, I've been able to make a few short films, which has been another incredible experience that I would never have seen coming to be honest,   Michael Hingson ** 53:27 in this country, we wouldn't call it sneak we would call it auditing, your auditing, which is probably a polite way of saying sneaking, but that's okay.   Kara Joubert ** 53:37 I'm like, Yeah, I'll need to apply that. I have been called an adopted film student by one of the lecturers.   Michael Hingson ** 53:44 Well, I could be adopted. That's okay.   Kara Joubert ** 53:47 There you go. It's still a loving family. I feel very to hear, yeah, very supportive environment. Fantastic.   Michael Hingson ** 53:55 Well, if you could go back and talk to the younger Cara, what would you say?   Kara Joubert ** 54:01 Oh, gosh, it's going to be even better than Okay, without summarizing it like without putting it too bluntly as to say, okay, chill. Yeah, I understood why a lot of the things going through my mind were quite overwhelming. And I think I need to give that kid some credit, because she definitely was put through a lot, and she did manage to get through on the other end. So I would say, yeah, it's going to be even better than okay, you're more capable than you realize, you're stronger than you realize,   Michael Hingson ** 54:35 which is, of course, something that we talk about on unstoppable mindset all the time, which is that people are more unstoppable than they think. They are. They underrate themselves, and it's so important that more people recognize that they can do more than they think, and they shouldn't sell themselves short. Yeah,   Kara Joubert ** 54:53 absolutely. And I would say there's sorry you go and   Michael Hingson ** 54:59 it happens all. Often that they sell themselves short.   Kara Joubert ** 55:04 No, absolutely. I mean, I was just about to say it's almost like there's a the word pandemic has been overused, and perhaps, you know, relates to some unfortunate events in 2019 2020 but I would say there is a bit of a pandemic of negativity, and I have seen it among my peers, where people do sell themselves, sell themselves short, yeah, and I think there is a lot of power in the way we talk over ourselves, and a lot of power in the way we talk about others. And I've heard it all too often that a situation is hopeless. As someone who's come from what could have been a hopeless situation, I renounced that statement quite a bit, because it's very rare. I would say that a situation is truly hopeless. And even when it is hopeless, there is still some good to be had in the future, and that is so worth holding on to.   Michael Hingson ** 56:10 What what caused you to decide to do some traveling and studying abroad? How did all that work?   Kara Joubert ** 56:17 Yeah. So as I said, I used to be someone who was very scared to even leave the house. How did I make the jump from that to here? Well, the therapy definitely helped, because my therapist was aware of my autistic side of things and was able to give me some techniques to be able to feel more comfortable, at ease around people outside of my, I want to say, comfort zones, and yeah, I was able to apply that. The opportunity came around quite unexpectedly. There was a talk that we had as a as a year group, the first year, I think, of journalism. And very early on, you had to decide whether or not you are going to apply, because there was a deadline. And at the time that I applied, I will admit I didn't feel 100% ready, but I was putting hope. I was putting faith in there would be a future in which I will be ready, because that's what I want. I want to be able to get out of my comfort zone. Because one thing I found is outside of the comfort zone, there are amazing opportunities, amazing things happen. So I applied, and I didn't hear back for a while, and then there were some interviews, and it was at the interview stage where I really had to, you know, fight for my position as someone who was going to study abroad. And I did. And I think for this particular setup in Australia, 30 students applied, and only three were accepted. Thankfully, I was one of those.   Michael Hingson ** 57:53 And so you're spending the winter in Australia.   Kara Joubert ** 57:57 Yeah, I am, which a lot of people might think isn't too bad, in consideration to the UK, perhaps not too too bad. But it is getting quite cold here. It can get cold in Australia, maybe not quite cold enough to snow. But there have been days where it's been 11 degrees Celsius, which is quite chilly,   Michael Hingson ** 58:17 which is quite chilly, yeah. Well, right now it's, I think, where I am, about 36 Celsius,   Kara Joubert ** 58:27 beautiful, degrees Celsius. We're not working in   Michael Hingson ** 58:30 Fahrenheit. Thank you, Celsius.   Kara Joubert ** 58:33 I appreciate that. My British Self does appreciate it.   Michael Hingson ** 58:38 Actually, it is actually it's about 38 Celsius outside right now. So toasty.   Kara Joubert ** 58:49 Yeah, I can imagine that's probably a little too toasty. Surely, are you planning to into the great outdoors? Are you staying safe inside?   Michael Hingson ** 58:58 I'm staying mostly inside. I'll go out with Alamo a little bit, but it's pretty warm out there, so I'll stay in here. Well, this has been really fun, and clearly you've been very unstoppable, and intend to stay that way, which is as good as it could possibly get. And we really appreciate it, and I really appreciate your time being here with us today. So I want to thank you for that, and I want to thank you all for listening. I hope that Cara has given you some really insightful and interesting things to think about and to go away and ponder. We hope that you enjoyed this episode. If you did, I'd love to hear from you. You can reach me. Michael, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, wherever you're listening or watching, please give us a five star review. We value your reviews very highly. Cara, if people want to reach out to you, is there a way to do that? Of.   Kara Joubert ** 1:00:00 Course, yeah, I would love to hear from people I am accessible through variety of ways. I've got my website, which is just my name.com,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:08 um, so that's spelled all that for me, K, A R A,   Kara Joubert ** 1:00:11 K A R, A, J, o, u, B, E R t.com, and there people will find my project, and they'll also find a way to contact me and I am findable on social media as courage you bear media.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:32 Cool now, with you being in journalism, when are you going to write a book?   Kara Joubert ** 1:00:38 That's a very good question. I really might not have a few things going on the side. Yeah, what's the space?   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:47 Well, I want to thank you again, and I really appreciate you all being here with us today. And if you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on the podcast, and Cara you as well. Please introduce us. Send us an email. Michael H i@accessibe.com there are lots of podcast episodes. We hope that you'll find them. You can always find them on my website, which is www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, n.com/podcast, so love to hear from you, and both car and I would really appreciate anything that you have to say. And once more, car, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely fun.   Kara Joubert ** 1:01:35 Thank you. I've had a completely fun time here myself. Thank you. It's been an absolute joy.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:47 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.