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Matt Forbeck is all that and so much more. He grew up in Wisconsin as what he describes as a wimpy kid, too short and not overly healthy. He took to gaming at a pretty early age and has grown to be a game creator, author and award-winning storyteller.   Matt has been designing games now for over 35 years. He tells us how he believes that many of the most successful games today have stories to tell, and he loves to create some of the most successful ones. What I find most intriguing about Matt is that he clearly is absolutely totally happy in his work. For most of Matt's career he has worked for himself and continues today to be an independent freelancer.   Matt and his wife have five children, including a set of quadruplets. The quadruplets are 23 and Matt's oldest son is 28 and is following in his father's footsteps.   During our conversation we touch on interesting topics such as trust and work ethics. I know you will find this episode stimulating and worth listening to more than once.     About the Guest:   Matt Forbeck is an award-winning and New York Times-bestselling author and game designer of over thirty-five novels and countless other books and games. His projects have won a Peabody Award, a Scribe Award, and numerous ENnies and Origins Awards. He is also the president of the Diana Jones Award Foundation, which celebrates excellence in gaming.    Matt has made a living full-time on games and fiction since 1989, when he graduated from the Residential College at the University of Michigan with a degree in Creative Writing. With the exception of a four-year stint as the president of Pinnacle Entertainment Group and a year and a half as the director of the adventure games division of Human Head Studios, he has spent his career as an independent freelancer.   Matt has designed collectible card games, roleplaying games, miniatures games, board games, interactive fiction, interactive audiobooks, games for museum installations, and logic systems for toys. He has directed voiceover work and written short fiction, comic books, novels, screenplays, and video game scripts and stories. His work has been translated into at least 15 languages.   His latest work includes the Marvel Multiverse Role-Playing Game Core Rulebook, the Spider-Verse Expansion, Monster Academy (novels and board game), the Shotguns & Sorcery 5E Sourcebook based on his novels, and the Minecraft: Roll for Adventure game books. He is the father of five, including a set of quadruplets. He lives in Beloit, Wisconsin, with his wife and a rotating cast of college-age children. For more about him and his work, visit Forbeck.com.   Ways to connect with Matt:   Twitter: https://twitter.com/mforbeck Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/forbeck Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/forbeck.com Threads: https://www.threads.net/@mforbeck Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mforbeck/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/forbeck/ Website: https://www.forbeck.com/     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset today. We get to play games. Well, not really, but we'll try. Our guest is Matt Forbeck, who is an award winning author. He is a game designer and all sorts of other kinds of things that I'm sure he's going to tell us about, and we actually just before we started the the episode, we were talking about how one might explore making more games accessible for blind and persons with other disabilities. It's, it's a challenge, and there, there are a lot of tricks. But anyway, Matt, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Matt Forbeck ** 02:02 Well, thank you, Michael for inviting me and having me on. I appreciate it.   Speaker 1 ** 02:06 I think we're going to have a lot of fun, and I think it'll work out really well. I'm I am sure of that. So why don't we start just out of curiosity, why don't you tell us kind of about the early Matt, growing up?   Matt Forbeck ** 02:18 Uh, well, I grew up. I was born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I grew up in a little town called Beloit, Wisconsin, which actually live in now, despite having moved away for 13 years at one point, and I had terrible asthma, I was a sick and short kid, and with the advent of medication, I finally started to be healthy when I was around nine, and Part of that, I started getting into playing games, right? Because when you're sick, you do a lot of sitting around rather than running around. So I did a lot of reading and playing games and things like that. I happen to grow up in the part of the world where Dungeons and Dragons was invented, which is in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, about 30 miles from where I live. And because of that I was I started going to conventions and playing games and such, when I was about 12 or 13 years old. I started doing it when I was a little bit older. I started doing it professionally, and started doing it when I was in college. And amazingly enough, even to my own astonishment, I've made a career out of it.   Speaker 1 ** 03:17 Where did you go to college? I went to the University   Matt Forbeck ** 03:21 of Michigan over in Ann Arbor. I had a great time there. There's a wonderful little college, Beloit College, in my hometown here, and most of my family has gone to UW Milwaukee over the years. My parents met at Marquette in Milwaukee, but I wanted to get the heck out of the area, so I went to Michigan, and then found myself coming back as soon as we started having   Speaker 1 ** 03:42 kids well, and of course, I would presume that when you were at the University of Michigan, you rooted for them and against Ohio State. That was   Matt Forbeck ** 03:50 kind of, you know, if you did it the other way around, they back out of town. So, yeah, I was always kind of astonished, though, because having grown up in Wisconsin, where every sports team was a losing team when I was growing up, including the Packers, for decades. You know, we were just happy to be playing. They were more excuse to have beers than they were to cheer on teams. And I went to Michigan where they were, they were angry if the team wasn't up by two touchdowns. You know, at any point, I'm like, You guys are silly. This is we're here for fun.   Speaker 1 ** 04:17 But it is amazing how seriously some people take sports. I remember being in New Zealand helping the Royal New Zealand Foundation for the Blind. Well now 22 years ago, it's 2003 and the America's Cup had just finished before we got there, and in America beat New Zealand, and the people in New Zealand were just irate. They were complaining that the government didn't put enough money into the design of the boat and helping with the with the yacht and all that. It was just amazing how seriously people take it, yeah,   Matt Forbeck ** 04:58 once, I mean, it becomes a part of your. Identity in a lot of ways, right for many people, and I've never had to worry about that too much. I've got other things on my mind, but there you go.   Speaker 1 ** 05:08 Well, I do like it when the Dodgers win, and my wife did her graduate work at USC, and so I like it when the Trojans win, but it's not the end of the world, and you do need to keep it in perspective. I I do wish more people would I know once I delivered a speech in brether County, Kentucky, and I was told that when I started the speech had to end no later than preferably exactly at 6:30pm not a minute later, because it was the night of the NCAA Basketball Championship, and the Kentucky Wildcats were in the championship, and at 630 everyone was going to get up and leave and go home to watch the game. So I ended at 630 and literally, by 631 I timed it. The gym was empty and it was full to start with.   Matt Forbeck ** 06:02 People were probably, you know, counting down on their watches, just to make sure, right?   Speaker 1 ** 06:06 Oh, I'm sure they were. What do you do? It's, it is kind of fun. Well, so why did you decide to get started in games? What? What? What attracted to you, to it as a young person, much less later on?   Matt Forbeck ** 06:21 Well, I was, yeah, I was an awkward kid, kind of nerdy and, you know, glasses and asthma and all that kind of stuff. And games were the kind of thing where, if you didn't know how to interact with people, you could sit down at a table across them and you could practice. You can say, okay, we're all here. We've got this kind of a magic circle around us where we've agreed to take this one silly activity seriously for a short period of time, right? And it may be that you're having fun during that activity, but you know, there's, there's no reason that rolling dice or moving things around on a table should be taken seriously. It's all just for fun, right? But for that moment, you actually just like Las Vegas Exactly, right? When there's money on the line, it's different, but if you're just doing it for grins. You know, it was a good way for me to learn how to interact with people of all sorts and of different ages. And I really enjoyed playing the games, and I really wanted to be a writer, too. And a lot of these things interacted with story at a very basic level. So breaking in as a writer is tough, but it turned out breaking as a game designer, wasn't nearly his stuff, so I started out over there instead, because it was a very young field at the time, right? D and D is now 50 years old, so I've been doing this 35 years, which means I started around professionally and even doing it before that, I started in the period when the game and that industry were only like 10 or 15 years old, so yeah, weren't quite as much competition in those   Speaker 1 ** 07:43 days. I remember some of the early games that I did play, that I could play, were DOS based games, adventure. You're familiar with adventure? Yeah, oh, yeah. Then later, Zork and all that. And I still think those are fun games. And I the reason I like a lot of those kinds of games is they really make you think, which I think most games do, even though the video even the video games and so on, they they help your or can help your reactions, but they're designed by people who do try to make you think,   Matt Forbeck ** 08:15 yeah. I mean, we basically are designing puzzles for people to solve, even if they're story puzzles or graphic puzzles or sound puzzles or whatever, you know, even spatial puzzles. There the idea is to give somebody something fun that is intriguing to play with, then you end up coming with story and after that, because after a while, even the most most exciting mechanics get dull, right? I mean, you start out shooting spaceships, but you can only shoot spaceships for so long, or you start out playing Tetris, and you only put shapes together for so long before it doesn't mean anything that then you start adding in story to give people a reason to keep playing right and a reason to keep going through these things. And I've written a lot of video games over the years, basically with that kind of a philosophy, is give people nuggets of story, give them a plot to work their way through, and reward them for getting through different stages, and they will pretty much follow you through anything. It's amazing.   Michael Hingson ** 09:09 Is that true Dungeons and Dragons too?   Matt Forbeck ** 09:13 It is. All of the stories are less structured there. If you're doing a video game, you know you the team has a lot of control over you. Give the player a limited amount of control to do things, but if you're playing around a table with people, it's more of a cooperative kind of experience, where we're all kind of coming up with a story, the narrator or the Game Master, the Dungeon Master, sets the stage for everything, but then the players have a lot of leeway doing that, and they will always screw things up for you, too. No matter what you think is going to happen, the players will do something different, because they're individuals, and they're all amazing people. That's actually to me, one of the fun things about doing tabletop games is that, you know, the computer can only react in a limited number of ways, whereas a human narrator and actually change things quite drastically and roll. With whatever people come up with, and that makes it tremendous fun.   Speaker 1 ** 10:04 Do you think AI is going to enter into all that and maybe improve some of the   Matt Forbeck ** 10:09 old stuff? It's going to add your end to it, whether it's an ad, it's going to approve it as a large question. Yeah. So I've been ranting about AI quite a bit lately with my friends and family. But, you know, I think the problem with AI, it can be very helpful a lot of ways, but I think it's being oversold. And I think it's especially when it's being oversold for thing, for ways for people to replace writers and creative thinking, Yeah, you know, you're taking the fun out of everything. I mean, the one thing I like to say is if, if you can't be bothered to write this thing that you want to communicate to me, I'm not sure why I should be bothered to read this thing well.   Speaker 1 ** 10:48 And I think that AI will will evolve in whatever way it does. But the fact of the matter is, So do people. And I think that, in fact, people are always going to be necessary to make the process really work? AI can only do and computers can only do so much. I mean, even Ray Kurzweil talks about the singularity when people and computer brains are married, but that still means that you're going to have the human element. So it's not all going to be the computer. And I'm not ready to totally buy into to what Ray says. And I used to work for Ray, so I mean, I know Ray Well, but, but the but the bottom line is, I think that, in fact, people are always going to be able to be kind of the, the mainstay of it, as long as we allow that, if we, if we give AI too much power, then over time, it'll take more power, and that's a problem, but that's up to us to deal with?   Matt Forbeck ** 11:41 No, I totally agree with that. I just think right now, there's a very large faction of people who it's in their economic interest to oversell these things. You know, people are making chips. They're building server farms. A lot of them are being transferred from people are doing blockchain just a few years ago, and they see it as the hot new thing. The difference is that AI actually has a lot of good uses. There's some amazing things will come out of llms and such. But I again, people are over the people are selling this to us. Are often over promising things, right?   Speaker 1 ** 12:11 Yeah, well, they're not only over promising but they're they're really misdirecting people. But the other side of it is that, that, in fact, AI as a concept and as a technology is here, and we have control over how we use it. I've said a couple times on this this podcast, and I've said to others, I remember when I first started hearing about AI, I heard about the the fact that teachers were bemoaning the pack, that kids were writing their papers just using AI and turning them in, and it wasn't always easy to tell whether it was something that was written by AI or was written by the student. And I come from a little bit different view than I think a lot of people do. And my view basically is, let the kids write it if with AI, if that's what they're going to do, but then what the teacher needs to do is to take one period, for example, and give every student in that class the opportunity to come up and defend whatever paper they have. And the real question is, can they defend the paper? Which means, have they really learned the subject, or are they just relying on AI,   Matt Forbeck ** 13:18 yeah, I agree with that. I think the trouble is, a lot of people, children, you know, who are developing their abilities and their morals about this stuff, they use it as just a way to complete the assignment, right? And many of them don't even read what they turn in, right, right? Just know that they've got something here that will so again, if you can't be bothered to read the thing that you manufactured, you're not learning anything about it,   Speaker 1 ** 13:39 which is why, if you are forced to defend it, it's going to become pretty obvious pretty fast, whether you really know it or not. Now, I've used AI on a number of occasions in various ways, but I use it to maybe give me ideas or prepare something that I then modify and shape. And I may even interact with AI a couple of times, but I'm definitely involved with the process all the way down the line, because it still has to be something that I'm responsible for.   Matt Forbeck ** 14:09 I agree. I mean, the whole point of doing these things is for people to connect with each other, right? I want to learn about the ideas you have in your head. I want to see how they jive with ones in my head. But if I'm just getting something that's being spit out by a machine and not you, and not being curated by you at any point, that doesn't seem very useful, right? So if you're the more involved people are in it, the more useful it is.   Speaker 1 ** 14:31 Well, I agree, and you know, I think again, it's a tool, and we have to decide how the tool is going to be used, which is always the way it ought to be. Right?   Matt Forbeck ** 14:42 Exactly, although sometimes it's large corporations deciding,   Speaker 1 ** 14:45 yeah, well, there's that too. Well, individuals,   Matt Forbeck ** 14:49 we get to make our own choices. Though you're right,   Speaker 1 ** 14:51 yes, and should Well, so, so when did you start bringing writing into what you. Did, and make that a really significant part of what you did?   Matt Forbeck ** 15:03 Well, pretty early on, I mean, I started doing one of the first things I did was a gaming zine, which was basically just a print magazine that was like, you know, 32 pages, black and white, about the different tabletop games. So we were writing those in the days, design and writing are very closely linked when it comes to tabletop games and even in video games. The trick of course is that designing a game and writing the rules are actually two separate sets of skills. So one of the first professional gig I ever had during writing was in games was some friends of mine had designed a game for a company called Mayfair games, which went on to do sellers of contain, which is a big, uh, entry level game, and but they needed somebody to write the rules, so they called me over, showed me how to play the game. I took notes and I I wrote it down in an easy to understand, clear way that people had just picked up the box. Could then pick it up and teach themselves how to play, right? So that was early on how I did it. But the neat thing about that is it also taught me to think about game design. I'm like, when I work on games, I think about, who is this game going to be for, and how are we going to teach it to them? Because if they can't learn the game, there's no point of the game at all, right?   Speaker 1 ** 16:18 And and so I'm right? I'm a firm believer that a lot of technical writers don't do a very good job of technical writing, and they write way over people's heads. I remember the first time I had to write, well, actually, I mentioned I worked for Kurzweil. I was involved with a project where Ray Kurzweil had developed his original omniprent optical character recognition system. And I and the National Federation of the Blind created with him a project to put machines around the country so that blind people could use them and give back to Ray by the time we were all done, recommendations as to what needed to go in the final first production model of the machine. So I had to write a training manual to teach people how to use it. And I wrote this manual, and I was always of the opinion that it had to be pretty readable and usable by people who didn't have a lot of technical knowledge. So I wrote the manual, gave it to somebody to read, and said, Follow the directions and and work with the machine and all that. And they did, and I was in another room, and they were playing with it for a couple of hours, and they came in and they said, I'm having a problem. I can't figure out how to turn off the machine. And it turns out that I had forgotten to put in the instruction to turn off the machine. And it wasn't totally trivial. There were steps you had to go through. It was a Data General Nova two computer, and you had to turn it off the right way and the whole system off the appropriate way, or you could, could mess everything up. So there was a process to doing it. So I wrote it in, and it was fine. But, you know, I've always been a believer that the textbooks are way too boring. Having a master's degree in physics, I am of the opinion that physics textbook writers, who are usually pretty famous and knowledgeable scientists, ought to include with all the text and the technical stuff they want to put in, they should put in stories about what they did in you bring people in, draw them into the whole thing, rather than just spewing out a bunch of technical facts.   Matt Forbeck ** 18:23 No, I agree. My my first calculus professor was a guy who actually explained how Newton and Leipzig actually came up with calculus, and then he would, you know, draw everything on the board and turn around say, and isn't that amazing? And you were, like, just absolutely enamored with the idea of how they had done these things, right? Yeah. And what you're doing there, when you, when you, when you give the instructions to somebody and say, try this out. That's a very big part of gaming, actually, because what we do this thing called play testing, where we take something before it's ready to be shown to the public, and we give it to other people and say, try this out. See how it works. Let me know when you're starting out of your first playing you play with like your family and friends and people will be brutal with you and give you hints about how you can improve things. But then, even when you get to the rules you're you send those out cold to people, or, you know, if you're a big company, you watch them through a two way mirror or one way mirror, and say, Hey, let's see how they react to everything. And then you take notes, and you try to make it better every time you go through. And when I'm teaching people to play games at conventions, for instance, I will often say to them, please ask questions if you don't understand anything, that doesn't mean you're dumb. Means I didn't explain it well enough, right? And my job as a person writing these rules is to explain it as well as I humanly can so it can't be misconstrued or misinterpreted. Now that doesn't mean you can correct everything. Somebody's always got like, Oh, I missed that sentence, you know, whatever. But you do that over and over so you can try to make it as clear and concise as possible, yeah.   Speaker 1 ** 19:52 Well, you have somewhat of a built in group of people to help if you let your kids get involved. Involved. So how old are your kids?   Matt Forbeck ** 20:03 My eldest is 26 he'll be 27 in January. Marty is a game designer, actually works with me on the marble tabletop role playing game, and we have a new book coming out, game book for Minecraft, called Minecraft role for adventure, that's coming out on July 7, I think, and the rest of the kids are 23 we have 423 year olds instead of quadruplets, one of whom is actually going into game design as well, and the other says two are still in college, and one has moved off to the work in the woods. He's a very woodsy boy. Likes to do environmental education with people.   Speaker 1 ** 20:39 Wow. Well, see, but you, but you still have a good group of potential game designers or game critics anyway.   Matt Forbeck ** 20:47 Oh, we all play games together. We have a great time. We do weekly game nights here. Sometimes they're movie nights, sometimes they're just pizza nights, but we shoot for game and pizza   Speaker 1 ** 20:56 if we get lucky and your wife goes along with all this too.   Matt Forbeck ** 21:00 She does. She doesn't go to the game conventions and stuff as much, and she's not as hardcore of a gamer, but she likes hanging out with the kids and doing everything with us. We have a great time.   Speaker 1 ** 21:10 That's that's pretty cool. Well, you, you've got, you've got to build an audience of some sorts, and that's neat that a couple of them are involved in it as well. So they really like what dad does, yeah,   Matt Forbeck ** 21:23 yeah. We, I started taking them each to conventions, which are, you know, large gatherings gamers in real life. The biggest one is Gen Con, which happens in Indianapolis in August. And last year, I think, we had 72,000 people show up. And I started taking the kids when they were 10 years old, and my wife would come up with them then. And, you know, 10 years old is a lot. 72,000 people is a lot for a 10 year old. So she can mention one day and then to a park the next day, you know, decompress a lot, and then come back on Saturday and then leave on Sunday or whatever, so that we didn't have them too over stimulated. But they really grown to love it. I mean, it's part of our annual family traditions in the summer, is to go do these conventions and play lots of games with each other and meet new people too well.   Speaker 1 ** 22:08 And I like the way you put it. The games are really puzzles, which they are, and it's and it's fun. If people would approach it that way, no matter what the game is, they're, they're aspects of puzzles involved in most everything that has to do with the game, and that's what makes it so fun.   Matt Forbeck ** 22:25 Exactly, no. The interesting thing is, when you're playing with other people, the other people are changing the puzzles from their end that you have to solve on your end. And sometimes the puzzle is, how do I beat this person, or how do I defeat their strategy, or how do I make an alliance with somebody else so we can win? And it's really always very intriguing. There's so many different types of games. There's nowadays, there's like something like 50 to 100 new board games that come out and tabletop games every month, right? It's just like a fire hose. It's almost like, when I was starting out as a novelist, I would go into Barnes and Noble or borders and go, Oh my gosh, look at all these books. And now I do the same thing about games. It's just, it's incredible. Nobody, no one person, could keep up with all of them.   Speaker 1 ** 23:06 Yeah, yeah, yeah, way too much. I would love to explore playing more video games, but I don't. I don't own a lot of the technology, although I'm sure that there are any number of them that can be played on a computer, but we'll have to really explore and see if we can find some. I know there are some that are accessible for like blind people with screen readers. I know that some people have written a few, which is kind of cool. Yeah.   Matt Forbeck ** 23:36 And Xbox has got a new controller out that's meant to be accessible to large amount of people. I'm not sure, all the different aspects of it, but that's done pretty well, too   Speaker 1 ** 23:44 well. And again, it comes down to making it a priority to put all of that stuff in. It's not like it's magic to do. It's just that people don't know how to do it. But I also think something else, which is, if you really make the products more usable, let's say by blind people with screen readers. You may be especially if it's well promoted, surprised. I'm not you necessarily, but people might well be surprised as to how many others might take advantage of it so that they don't necessarily have to look at the screen, or that you're forced to listen as well as look in order to figure out what's going on or take actions.   Matt Forbeck ** 24:29 No, definitely true. It's, you know, people audio books are a massive thing nowadays. Games tend to fall further behind that way, but it's become this incredible thing that obviously, blind people get a great use out of but my wife is addicted to audio books now. She actually does more of those than she does reading. I mean, I technically think they're both reading. It's just one's done with yours and one's done with your eyes.   Speaker 1 ** 24:51 Yeah, there's but there's some stuff, whether you're using your eyes or your fingers and reading braille, there's something about reading a book that way that's. Even so a little bit different than listening to it. Yeah, and there's you're drawn in in some ways, in terms of actually reading that you're not necessarily as drawn into when you're when you're listening to it, but still, really good audio book readers can help draw you in, which is important, too,   Matt Forbeck ** 25:19 very much. So yeah, I think the main difference for reading, whether it's, you know, again, through Braille or through traditional print, is that you can stop. You can do it at your own pace. You can go back and look at things very easily, or read or check things, read things very easily. That you know, if you're reading, if you're doing an audio book, it just goes on and it's straight on, boom, boom, boom, pace. You can say, Wait, I'm going to put this down here. What was that thing? I remember back there? It was like three pages back, but it's really important, let me go check that right.   Speaker 1 ** 25:50 There are some technologies that allow blind people and low vision people and others, like people with dyslexia to use an audio book and actually be able to navigate two different sections of it. But it's not something that is generally available to the whole world, at least to the level that it is for blind people. But I can, I can use readers that are made to be able to accept the different formats and go back and look at pages, go back and look at headings, and even create bookmarks to bookmark things like you would normally by using a pen or a pencil or something like that. So there are ways to do some of that. So again, the technology is making strides.   Matt Forbeck ** 26:37 That's fantastic. Actually, it's wonderful. Just, yeah, it's great. I actually, you know, I lost half the vision of my right eye during back through an autoimmune disease about 13 years ago, and I've always had poor vision. So I'm a big fan of any kind of way to make things easier,   Speaker 1 ** 26:54 like that. Well, there, there are things that that are available. It's pretty amazing. A guy named George curser. Curser created a lot of it years ago, and it's called the DAISY format. And the whole idea behind it is that you can actually create a book. In addition to the audio tracks, there are XML files that literally give you the ability to move and navigate around the book, depending on how it's created, as final level as you choose.   Matt Forbeck ** 27:25 Oh, that's That's amazing. That's fantastic. I'm actually really glad to hear that.   Speaker 1 ** 27:28 So, yeah, it is kind of fun. So there's a lot of technology that's that's doing a lot of different sorts of things and and it helps. But um, so for you, in terms of dealing with, with the games, you've, you've written games, but you've, you've actually written some novels as well, right?   Matt Forbeck ** 27:50 Yeah, I've got like 30, it depends on how you count a novel, right? Okay, like some of my books are to pick a path books, right? Choose Your Own Adventure type stuff. So, but I've got 35 traditional novels written or more, I guess, now, I lost track a while ago, and probably another dozen of these interactive fiction books as well. So, and I like doing those. I've also written things like Marvel encyclopedias and Avengers encyclopedias and all sorts of different pop culture books. And, you know, I like playing in different worlds. I like writing science fiction, fantasy, even modern stuff. And most of it, for me comes down to telling stories, right? If you like to tell stories, you can tell stories through a game or book or audio play or a TV show or a comic, or I've done, you know, interactive museum, games and displays, things like that. The main thing is really a story. I mean, if you're comfortable sitting down at a bar and having a drink with somebody, doesn't have to be alcohol, just sitting down and telling stories with each other for fun. That's where the core of it all is really   Speaker 1 ** 28:58 right. Tell me about interactive fiction book.   Matt Forbeck ** 29:01 Sure, a lot of these are basically just done, like flow charts, kind of like the original Zork and adventure that you were talking about where you I actually, I was just last year, I brought rose Estes, who's the inventor of the endless quest books, which were a cross between Dungeons and Dragons, and choose your own adventure books. She would write the whole thing out page by page on a typewriter, and then, in order to shuffle the pages around so that people wouldn't just read straight through them, she'd throw them all up in the air and then just put them back in whatever order they happen to be. But essentially, you read a section of a book, you get to the end, and it gives you a choice. Would you like to go this way or that way? Would you like to go beat up this goblin? Or would you like to make friends with this warrior over here? If you want to do one of these things, go do page xx, right? Got it. So then you turn to that page and you go, boom, some, actually, some of the endless quest books I know were turned into audio books, right? And I actually, I. Um, oddly, have written a couple Dungeons and Dragons, interactive books, audio books that have only been released in French, right? Because there's a company called Looney l, u n, i, i that has this little handheld device that's for children, that has an A and a B button and a volume button. And you, you know, you get to the point that says, if you want to do this, push a, if you want to do that, push B, and the kids can go through these interactive stories and and, you know, there's ones for clue and Dungeons and Dragons and all sorts of other licenses, and some original stories too. But that way there's usually, like, you know, it depends on the story, but sometimes there's, like, 10 to 20 different endings. A lot of them are like, Oh no, you've been killed. Go back to where you started, right? And if you're lucky, the longer ones are, the more fun ones. And you get to, you know, save the kingdom and rescue the people and make good friends and all that good stuff,   Michael Hingson ** 30:59 yeah, and maybe fall in love with the princess or Prince.   Matt Forbeck ** 31:02 Yeah, exactly right. It all depends on the genre and what you're working in. But the idea is to give people some some choices over how they want the story to go. You're like, Well, do you want to investigate this dark, cold closet over here, or would you rather go running outside and playing around? And some of them can seem like very innocent choices, and other ones are like, well, uh, 10 ton weight just fell on. You go back to the last thing.   Speaker 1 ** 31:23 So that dark hole closet can be a good thing or a bad thing,   Matt Forbeck ** 31:28 exactly. And the trick is to make the deaths the bad endings, actually just as entertaining as anything else, right? And then people go, Well, I got beat, and I gotta go back and try that again. So yeah, if they just get the good ending all the way through, they often won't go back and look at all the terrible ones. So it's fun to trick them sometimes and have them go into terrible spots. And I like to put this one page in books too that sometimes says, How did you get here? You've been cheating there. This book, this page, is actually not led to from any other part of the book. You're just flipping   Speaker 1 ** 31:59 through. Cheater, cheater book, do what you   Matt Forbeck ** 32:04 want, but if you want to play it the right way, go back.   Speaker 1 ** 32:07 Kid, if you want to play the game. Yeah, exactly. On the other hand, some people are nosy.   Matt Forbeck ** 32:15 You know, I was always a kid who would poke around and wanted to see how things were, so I'm sure I would have found that myself but absolutely related, you know,   Speaker 1 ** 32:23 yeah, I had a general science teacher who brought in a test one day, and he gave it to everyone. And so he came over to me because it was, it was a printed test. He said, Well, I'm not going to give you the test, because the first thing it says is, read all the instructions, read, read the test through before you pass it, before you take it. And he said, most people won't do that. And he said, I know you would. And the last question on the test is answer, only question one.   Matt Forbeck ** 32:55 That's great. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 32:57 that was cute. And he said, I know that. I that there's no way you would, would would fall for that, because you would say, Okay, let's read the instructions and then read the whole test. That's what it said. And the instruction were, just read the whole test before you start. And people won't do that.   Matt Forbeck ** 33:13 No, they'll go through, take the whole thing. They get there and go, oh, did I get there? Was a, there's a game publisher. I think it was Steve Jackson Games, when they were looking for people, write for them, or design stuff for them, or submit stuff to them, would have something toward the end of the instructions that would say, put like a the letter seven, or put seven a on page one right, and that way they would know if you had read the instructions, if you hadn't bothered to Read the instructions, they wouldn't bother reading anything else.   Speaker 1 ** 33:42 Yeah, which is fair, because the a little harsh, well, but, but, you know, we often don't learn enough to pay attention to details. I know that when I was taking physics in college, that was stressed so often it isn't enough to get the numbers right. If you don't get the units right as well. Then you're, you're not really paying attention to the details. And paying attention to the details is so important.   Matt Forbeck ** 34:07 That's how they crash from those Mars rovers, wasn't it? They somebody messed up the units, but going back and forth between metric and, yeah, and Imperial and, well, you know, it cost somebody a lot of money at one point. Yeah. Yeah. What do you   Speaker 1 ** 34:21 this is kind of the way it goes. Well, tell me, yeah. Well, they do matter, no matter what people think, sometimes they do matter. Well, tell me about the Diana Jones award. First of all, of course, the logical question for many people is, who is Diana Jones? Yeah, Diana Jones doesn't exist, right? That's There you go. She's part game somewhere? No, no, it doesn't be in a game somewhere.   Matt Forbeck ** 34:43 Then now there's actually an author named Diana Wynne Jones, who's written some amazing fantasy stories, including Howell's Moving Castle, which has turned into a wonderful anime movie, but it has nothing to do with her or any other person. Because originally, the Diana Jones award came about. Because a friend of mine, James Wallace, had somehow stumbled across a trophy that fell into his hands, and it was a pub trivia trophy that used to be used between two different gaming companies in the UK, and one of those was TSR, UK, the United Kingdom department. And at one point, the company had laid off everybody in that division just say, Okay, we're closing it all down. So the guys went and burned a lot of the stuff that they had, including a copy of the Indiana Jones role playing game, and the only part of the logo that was left said Diana Jones. And for some reason, they put this in a in a fiberglass or Plexiglas pyramid, put it on a base, a wooden base, and it said the Diana Jones award trophy, right? And this was the trophy that they used they passed back and forth as a joke for their pub trivia contest. Fell into James's hands, and he decided, You know what, we're going to give this out for the most excellent thing in gaming every year. And we've now done this. This will be 25 years this summer. We do it at the Wednesday night before Gen Con, which starts on Thursday, usually at the end of July or early August. And as part of that, actually, about five years ago, we started, one of the guys suggested we should do something called the emerging designers program. So we actually became a 501, c3, so we could take donations. And now we take four designers every year, fly them in from wherever they happen to be in the world, and put them up in a hotel, give them a badge the show, introduce them to everybody, give them an honorarium so they can afford to skip work for a week and try to help launch their careers. I mean, these are people that are in the first three years of their design careers, and we try to work mostly with marginalized or et cetera, people who need a little bit more representation in the industry too. Although we can select anybody, and it's been really well received, it's been amazing. And there's a group called the bundle of holding which sells tabletop role playing game PDFs, and they've donated 10s of 1000s of dollars every year for us to be able to do this. And it's kind of funny, because I never thought I'd be end up running a nonprofit, but here I'm just the guy who writes checks to the different to the emerging designer program. Folks are much more tied into that community that I am. But one of the real reasons I wanted to do something like that or be involved with it, because if you wander around with these conventions and you notice that it starts getting very gray after a while, right? It's you're like, oh, there's no new people coming in. It's all older people. I we didn't I didn't want us to all end up as like the Grandpa, grandpa doing the HO model railroad stuff in the basement, right? This dying hobby that only people in their 60s and 70s care about. So bringing in fresh people, fresh voices, I think, is very important, and hopefully we're doing some good with that. It's been a lot of fun either way.   Speaker 1 ** 37:59 Well, I have you had some success with it? Yeah, we've   Matt Forbeck ** 38:02 had, well, let's see. I think we've got like 14 people. We've brought in some have already gone on to do some amazing things. I mean, it's only been a few years, so it's hard to tell if they're gonna be legends in their time, but again, having them as models for other people to look at and say, Oh, maybe I could do that. That's been a great thing. The other well, coincidentally, Dungeons and Dragons is having its best 10 year streak in its history right now, and probably is the best selling it's ever been. So coinciding with that, we've seen a lot more diversity and a lot more people showing up to these wonderful conventions and playing these kinds of games. There's also been an advent of this thing called actual play, which is the biggest one, is a group called Critical Role, which is a whole bunch of voice actors who do different cartoons and video games and such, and they play D and D with each other, and then they record the games, and they produce them on YouTube and for podcasts. And these guys are amazing. There's a couple of other ones too, like dimension 20 and glass cannon, the critical role guys actually sold out a live performance at Wembley Arena last summer. Wow. And dimension. Dimension 20 sold out Madison Square Garden. I'm like, if you'd have told me 20 years ago that you know you could sell out an entire rock stadium to have people watch you play Dungeons and Dragons, I would have laughed. I mean, there's no way it would have been possible. But now, you know, people are very much interested in this. It's kind of wild, and it's, it's fun to be a part of that. At some level,   Speaker 1 ** 39:31 how does the audience get drawn in to something like that? Because they are watching it, but there must be something that draws them in.   Matt Forbeck ** 39:39 Yeah, part of it is that you have some really skilled some actors are very funny, very traumatic and very skilled at improvisation, right? So the the dungeon master or Game Master will sit there and present them with an idea or whatever. They come up each with their own characters. They put them in wonderful, strong voices. They kind of inhabit the roles in a way that an actor. A really top level actor would, as opposed to just, you know, me sitting around a table with my friends. And because of that, they become compelling, right? My Marty and my his wife and I were actually at a convention in Columbus, Ohio last weekend, and this group called the McElroy family, actually, they do my brother, my brother and me, which is a hit podcast, but they also do an actual play podcast called The Adventure zone, where they just play different games. And they are so funny. These guys are just some of the best comedians you'll ever hear. And so them playing, they actually played our Marvel game for a five game session, or a five podcast session, or whatever, and it was just stunningly fun to listen to. People are really talented mess around with something that we built right it's very edifying to see people enjoying something that you worked on.   Speaker 1 ** 40:51 Do you find that the audiences get drawn in and they're actually sort of playing the game along, or as well? And may disagree with what some of the choices are that people make?   Matt Forbeck ** 41:02 Oh, sure. But I mean, if the choices are made from a point of the character that's been expressed, that people are following along and they they already like the character, they might go, Oh, those mean, you know that guy, there are some characters they love to hate. There are some people they're they're angry at whatever, but they always really appreciate the actors. I mean, the actors have become celebrities in their own right. They've they sell millions of dollars for the comic books and animated TV shows and all these amazing things affiliated with their actual play stuff. And it's, I think it, part of it is because, it's because it makes the games more accessible. Some people are intimidated by these games. So it's not really, you know, from a from a physical disability kind of point. It's more of a it makes it more accessible for people to be nervous, to try these things on their own, or don't really quite get how they work. They can just sit down and pop up YouTube or their podcast program and listen into people doing a really good job at it. The unfortunate problem is that the converse of that is, when you're watching somebody do that good of a job at it, it's actually hard to live up to that right. Most people who play these games are just having fun with their friends around a table. They're not performing for, you know, 10s of 1000s, if not hundreds of 1000s of people. So there's a different level of investments, really, at that point, and some people have been known to be cowed by that, by that, or daunted by that.   Speaker 1 ** 42:28 You work on a lot of different things. I gather at the same time. What do you what do you think about that? How do you like working on a lot of different projects? Or do you, do you more focus on one thing, but you've got several things going on, so you'll work on something for one day, then you'll work on something else. Or how do you how do you do it all?   Matt Forbeck ** 42:47 That's a good question. I would love to just focus on one thing at a time. Now, you know the trouble is, I'm a freelancer, right? I don't set my I don't always get to say what I want to work on. I haven't had to look for work for over a decade, though, which has been great. People just come to me with interesting things. The trouble is that when you're a freelancer, people come in and say, Hey, let's work on this. I'm like, Yeah, tell me when you're ready to start. And you do that with like, 10 different people, and they don't always line up in sequence properly, right? Yeah? Sometimes somebody comes up and says, I need this now. And I'm like, Yeah, but I'm in the middle of this other thing right now, so I need to not sleep for another week, and I need to try to figure out how I'm going to put this in between other things I'm working on. And I have noticed that after I finish a project, it takes me about a day or three to just jump track. So if I really need to, I can do little bits here and there, but to just fully get my brain wrapped around everything I'm doing for a very complex project, takes me a day or three to say, Okay, now I'm ready to start this next thing and really devote myself to it. Otherwise, it's more juggling right now, having had all those kids, probably has prepared me to juggle. So I'm used to having short attention span theater going on in my head at all times, because I have to jump back and forth between things. But it is. It's a challenge, and it's a skill that you develop over time where you're like, Okay, I can put this one away here and work on this one here for a little while. Like today, yeah, I knew I was going to talk to you, Michael. So I actually had lined up another podcast that a friend of mine wanted to do with me. I said, Let's do them on the same day. This way I'm not interrupting my workflow so much, right? Makes sense? You know, try to gang those all together and the other little fiddly bits I need to do for administration on a day. Then I'm like, Okay, this is not a day off. It's just a day off from that kind of work. It's a day I'm focusing on this aspect of what I do.   Speaker 1 ** 44:39 But that's a actually brings up an interesting point. Do you ever take a day off or do what do you do when you're when you deciding that you don't want to do gaming for a while?   Matt Forbeck ** 44:49 Yeah, I actually kind of terrible. But you know, you know, my wife will often drag me off to places and say we're going to go do this when. Yes, we have a family cabin up north in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan that we go to. Although, you know, my habit there is, I'll work. I'll start work in the morning on a laptop or iPad until my battery runs out, and then I shut it down, put on a charger, and then I go out and swim with everybody for the rest of the day. So it depends if I'm on a deadline or not, and I'm almost always on a deadline, but there are times I could take weekends off there. One of the great things of being a freelancer, though, and especially being a stay at home father, which is part of what I was doing, is that when things come up during the middle of the week, I could say, oh, sure, I can be flexible, right? The trouble is that I have to pay for that time on my weekends, a lot of the time, so I don't really get a lot of weekends off. On the other hand, I'm not I'm not committed to having to work every day of the week either, right? I need to go do doctor appointments, or we want to run off to Great America and do a theme park or whatever. I can do that anytime I want to. It's just I have to make up the time at other points during the week. Does your wife work? She does. She was a school social worker for many years, and now as a recruiter at a local technical college here called Black Hawk tech. And she's amazing, right? She's fantastic. She has always liked working. The only time she stopped working was for about a year and a half after the quads were born, I guess, two years. And that was the only time I ever took a job working with anybody else, because we needed the health insurance, so I we always got it through her. And then when she said, Well, I'm gonna stay home with the kids, which made tons of sense, I went and took a job with a video game company up in Madison, Wisconsin called Human Head Studios for about 18 months, 20 months. And then the moment she told me she was thinking about going back to work, I'm like, Oh, good, I can we can Cobra for 18 months and pay for our own health insurance, and I'm giving notice this week, and, you know, we'll work. I left on good terms that everybody. I still talk to them and whatever, but I very much like being my own boss and not worrying about what other people are going to tell me to do. I work with a lot of clients, which means I have a lot of people telling me what to do. But you know, if it turns out bad, I can walk I can walk away. If it turns out good, hopefully we get to do things together, like the the gig I've been working out with Marvel, I guess, has been going on for like, four years now, with pretty continuous work with them, and I'm enjoying every bit of it. They're great people to work with.   Speaker 1 ** 47:19 Now, you were the president of Pinnacle entertainment for a little while. Tell me about that.   Matt Forbeck ** 47:24 I was, that was a small gaming company I started up with a guy named Shane Hensley, who was another tabletop game designer. Our big game was something called Dead Lands, which was a Western zombie cowboy kind of thing. Oh gosh, Western horror. So. And it was pretty much a, you know, nobody was doing Western horror back in those days. So we thought, Oh, this is safe. And to give you an example of parallel development, we were six months into development, and another company, White Wolf, which had done a game called Vampire the Masquerade, announced that they were doing Werewolf the Wild West. And we're like, you gotta be kidding me, right? Fortunately, we still released our game three months before there, so everybody thought we were copying them, rather than the other way around. But the fact is, we were. We both just came up with the idea independently. Right? When you work in creative fields, often, if somebody wants to show you something, you say, I'd like to look at you have to sign a waiver first that says, If I do something like this, you can't sue me. And it's not because people are trying to rip you off. It's because they may actually be working on something similar, right already. Because we're all, you know, swimming in the same cultural pool. We're all, you know, eating the same cultural soup. We're watching or watching movies, playing games, doing whatever, reading books. And so it's not unusual that some of us will come up with similar ideas   Speaker 1 ** 48:45 well, and it's not surprising that from time to time, two different people are going to come up with somewhat similar concepts. So that's not a big surprise, exactly, but   Matt Forbeck ** 48:56 you don't want people getting litigious over it, like no, you don't be accused of ripping anybody off, right? You just want to be as upfront with people. With people. And I don't think I've ever actually seen somebody, at least in gaming, in tabletop games, rip somebody off like that. Just say, Oh, that's a great idea. We're stealing that it's easier to pay somebody to just say, Yes, that's a great idea. We'll buy that from you, right? As opposed to trying to do something unseemly and criminal?   Speaker 1 ** 49:24 Yeah, there's, there's something to be said for having real honor in the whole process.   Matt Forbeck ** 49:30 Yeah, I agree, and I think that especially if you're trying to have a long term career in any field that follows you, if you get a reputation for being somebody who plays dirty, nobody wants to play with you in the future, and I've always found it to be best to be as straightforward with people and honest, especially professionally, just to make sure that they trust you. Before my quadruplets were born, you could have set your clock by me as a freelancer, I never missed a deadline ever, and since then, I've probably it's a. Rare earth thing to make a deadline, because, you know, family stuff happens, and you know, there's just no controlling it. But whenever something does happen, I just call people up and say, hey, look, it's going to be another week or two. This is what's going on. And because I have a good reputation for completing the job and finishing quality work, they don't mind. They're like, Oh, okay, I know you're going to get this to me. You're not just trying to dodge me. So they're willing to wait a couple weeks if they need to, to get to get what they need. And I'm very grateful to them for that. And I'm the worst thing somebody can do is what do, what I call turtling down, which is when it's like, Oh no, I'm late. And then, you know, they cut off all communication. They don't talk to anybody. They just kind of try to disappear as much as they can. And we all, all adults, understand that things happen in your life. It's okay. We can cut you some slack every now and then, but if you just try to vanish, that's not even possible.   Speaker 1 ** 50:54 No, there's a lot to be there's a lot to be said for trust and and it's so important, I think in most anything that we do, and I have found in so many ways, that there's nothing better than really earning someone's trust, and they earning your trust. And it's something I talk about in my books, like when live with a guide dog, live like a guide dog, which is my newest book, it talks a lot about trust, because when you're working with a guide dog, you're really building a team, and each member of the team has a specific job to do, and as the leader of the team, it's my job to also learn how to communicate with the other member of the team. But the reality is, it still comes down to ultimately, trust, because I and I do believe that dogs do love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally. But the difference between dogs and people is that people that dogs are much more open to trust, for the most part, unless they've just been totally traumatized by something, but they're more open to trust. And there's a lesson to be learned there. No, I   Matt Forbeck ** 52:03 absolutely agree with that. I think, I think most people in general are trustworthy, but as you say, a lot of them have trauma in their past that makes it difficult for them to open themselves up to that. So that's actually a pretty wonderful way to think about things. I like that,   Speaker 1 ** 52:17 yeah, well, I think that trust is is so important. And I know when I worked in professional sales, it was all about trust. In fact, whenever I interviewed people for jobs, I always asked them what they were going to sell, and only one person ever answered me the way. I really hoped that everybody would answer when I said, So, tell me what you're going to be selling. He said, The only thing I have to really sell is myself and my word, and nothing else. It really matters. Everything else is stuff. What you have is stuff. It's me selling myself and my word, and you have to, and I would expect you to back me up. And my response was, as long as you're being trustworthy, then you're going to get my backing all the way. And he was my most successful salesperson for a lot of reasons, because he got it.   Matt Forbeck ** 53:08 Yeah, that's amazing. I mean, I mean, I've worked with people sourcing different things too, for sales, and if you can rely on somebody to, especially when things go wrong, to come through for you. And to be honest with you about, you know, there's really that's a hard thing to find. If you can't depend on your sources for what you're building, then you can't depend on anything. Everything else falls apart.   Speaker 1 ** 53:29 It does. You've got to start at the beginning. And if people can't earn your trust, and you earn theirs, there's a problem somewhere, and it's just not going to work.   Matt Forbeck ** 53:39 Yeah, I just generally think people are decent and want to help. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've had issues. Car breaks down the road in Wisconsin. Here, if somebody's car goes in the ditch, everybody stops and just hauls them out. It's what you do when the quads were born, my stepmother came up with a sign up sheet, a booklet that she actually had spiral bound, that people could sign up every three three hours to help come over and feed and bathe, diaper, whatever the kids and we had 30 to 35 volunteers coming in every week. Wow, to help us out with that was amazing, right? They just each pick slots, feeding slots, and come in and help us out. I had to take the 2am feeding, and my wife had to take the 5am feeding by ourselves. But the rest of the week we had lots and lots of help, and we were those kids became the surrogate grandchildren for, you know, 30 to 35 women and couples really, around the entire area, and it was fantastic. Probably couldn't have survived   Speaker 1 ** 54:38 without it. And the other part about it is that all those volunteers loved it, because you all appreciated each other, and it was always all about helping and assisting.   Matt Forbeck ** 54:48 No, we appreciate them greatly. But you know every most of them, like 99% of them, whatever were women, 95 women who are ready for grandchildren and didn't have them. Had grandchildren, and they weren't in the area, right? And they had that, that love they wanted to share, and they just loved the opportunity to do it. It was, I'm choking up here talking about such a great time for us in   Speaker 1 ** 55:11 that way. Now I'm assuming today, nobody has to do diaper duty with the quads, right?   Matt Forbeck ** 55:16 Not until they have their own kids. Just checking, just checking, thankfully, think we're that is long in our past,   Speaker 1 ** 55:23 is it? Is it coming fairly soon for anybody in the future?   Matt Forbeck ** 55:27 Oh, I don't know. That's really entirely up to them. We would love to have grandchildren, but you know, it all comes in its own time. They're not doing no well. I, one of my sons is married, so it's possible, right? And one of my other sons has a long term girlfriend, so that's possible, but, you know, who knows? Hopefully they're they have them when they're ready. I always say, if you have kids and you want them, that's great. If you have, if you don't have kids and you don't want them, that's great. It's when you cross the two things that,   Speaker 1 ** 55:57 yeah, trouble, yeah, that's that is, that is a problem. But you really like working with yourself. You love the entre

Click here to listen to the full episodeCelebrated athlete Erik Weihenmayer is the first blind person in history to reach the summit of the world's highest mountain, Mount Everest. In this episode, he tells Brian how he lives a life of meaning and purpose by consistently breaking through barriers and helping others with special challenges to lead active and fulfilling lives. YOU WILL LEARN:· Why he never lives on the sidelines.· How climbing Mount Everest changed him.· Why he started a nonprofit. MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE: erikweihenmayer.com No Barriers nonprofit National Federation of the Blind MasterMind Summit S1E043, What's Your Everest? NOTEWORTHY QUOTES FROM THIS EPISODE: “When I went totally blind … it was like the gloves were off. I could do anything I wanted now. I was free.” – Erik Weihenmayer “Wisdom gets beat into most of us, sadly.” – Erik Weihenmayer “We're always sort of straddling this knife edge between limitation and possibility.” – Erik Weihenmayer “When you have a really bad day there's nothing better than sleeping and waking up the next morning to say, ‘Today's a new day with new possibilities – I can do better than I did yesterday.'” – Erik Weihenmayer “It's an ongoing, never-ending commitment to reaching and failing; falling short and bleeding a little bit; and reaching again and getting a little higher each day up the mountain. To me, that's what constitutes a good life.” – Erik Weihenmayer itsagoodlife.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Kevin covers the following stories: the U.S. Labor Department reported the Producer Price Index and Core Producer Price Index; how some in the media are covering the same news; The National Federation of Independent Business Optimism Index was released; the American Trucking Associations published the 2025 edition of American Trucking Trends; Transportation groups sent a letter to House and Senate transportation leaders detailing Highway Bill priorities; Kevin has the details, digs into the details, puts the information in historical perspective, offers his insights and an opinion or two. Kevin points out the various economic and geopolitical events affecting oil and gas prices.

Project 2025 has quickly become the most consequential—and controversial—blueprint for American governance in recent history. Conceived by the Heritage Foundation and launched with a sprawling 927-page policy manual in April 2023, Project 2025's core goal is to reshape the entire federal government according to staunch conservative priorities. It is, as Heritage Foundation president Kevin Roberts puts it, an effort to “dismantle the administrative state and restore presidential control over the executive branch.”Yet behind those words lies an ambitious checklist for the next presidential administration, presuming a Republican—most likely Donald Trump—takes office. Project 2025 is not just a collection of ideas. It is a detailed playbook, complete with executive orders, departmental reorganization timetables, and a so-called 180-day playbook, designed for rapid execution on “Day One.”At the heart of Project 2025 is an unprecedented push to centralize power in the Oval Office. The plan relies on the controversial unitary executive theory, which argues all executive branch employees should be directly answerable to the president. Kevin Roberts has been explicit: “All federal employees should answer to the president.” According to the project manual, entire agencies such as the Department of Justice, Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, and the Federal Trade Commission would lose their current independence and fall under direct White House control.One of the most sweeping reforms revolves around personnel. The blueprint resurrects the idea of “Schedule F”—a Trump-era category that would allow the president to reclassify tens of thousands of career civil servants as political appointees, instantly stripping them of protections from partisan firing. The National Federation of Federal Employees warns this would “give the president and his loyalists full control of the executive branch for personal and political gain,” hollowing out civil service checks that have traditionally protected against corruption and patronage.Concrete examples illustrate the scale of the changes envisioned. In foreign policy, the State Department chapter recommends that, before January 20, all leadership be dismissed and replaced with ideologically aligned “acting” appointees who bypass Senate confirmation entirely. Kiron Skinner, the former policy planning chief who wrote this section, has called for removing staff she considers too left-leaning, despite admitting she could not name a single time employees substantively obstructed White House policy.The playbook doesn't stop there. Project 2025 proposes slashing federal workforce numbers through forced attrition, with the White House directing agency heads to lay off or consolidate thousands of positions and eliminate entire offices deemed non-essential. For example, agencies like USAID and the CFPB are earmarked for dissolution, their functions either axed or merged into departments more closely monitored by the executive.Critics from organizations like the American Civil Liberties Union highlight how Project 2025 seeks to erode key civil liberties across a range of issues—abortion, LGBTQ rights, free speech, and the environment. The ACLU describes the initiative as “a roadmap for how to replace the rule of law with right-wing ideals.” Meanwhile, labor unions such as AFGE and NTEU have mounted lawsuits to block the executive orders targeting civil service protections, warning of the dangers of introducing broad political loyalty tests into government hiring and firing.Supporters claim these moves would eliminate bureaucratic inertia and bring swift, accountable leadership to Washington. Yet, legal scholars and former officials have called Project 2025 authoritarian, warning it undermines separation of powers and blurs the lines between partisanship and governance.With the November 2024 presidential election looming, Project 2025's fate comes down to political winds and court rulings. The Heritage Foundation and its partners have prepared a rapid-fire battery of executive orders, ready for signature if they get their candidate in office. Milestones to watch include ongoing legal challenges, Congressional resistance, and, above all, the outcome of the national vote.The scope and ambition of Project 2025 are nothing short of historic, representing both a culmination of decades-long conservative advocacy and an inflection point in debates over the very structure of American democracy. Thank you for tuning in, and be sure to come back next week for more.Some great Deals https://amzn.to/49SJ3QsFor more check out http://www.quietplease.ai

Our guest this time is Aaron Wolpoff who has spent his professional career as a marketing strategist and consultant to help companies develop strategic brands and enhance their audience growth. He owns the marketing firm, Double Zebra. He tells us about the name and how his company has helped a number of large and small companies grow and better serve their clients.   Aaron grew up in the San Diego area. He describes himself as a curious person and he says he always has been such. He loves to ask questions. He says as a child he was somewhat quiet, but always wanted to know more. He received his Bachelor's degree in marketing from the University of California at San Diego. After working for a firm for some four and a half years he and his wife moved up to the bay area in Northern California where attended San Francisco State University and obtained a Master's degree in Business.   In addition to his day job functioning as a business advisor and strategist Aaron also hosts a podcast entitled, We Fixed it, You're Welcome. I had the honor to appear on his podcast to discuss Uber and some of its accessibility issues especially concerning access by blind persons who use guide dogs to Uber's fleet. His podcast is quite fascinating and one I hope you will follow.   Aaron provides us in this episode many business insights. We talk about a number of challenges and successes marketing has brought to the business arena. I hope you like what Aaron offers.     About the Guest:   Aaron Wolpoff is a seasoned marketing strategist and communications consultant with a track record of positioning companies, products, and thought leadership for maximum impact. Throughout his career, Aaron has been somewhat of a trendspotter, getting involved in early initiatives around online banking, SaaS, EVs, IoT, and now AI, His ability to bridge complex industry dynamics and technology-driven solutions underscores his role as a forward-thinking consultant, podcaster, and business advisor, committed to enhancing organizational effectiveness and fostering strategic growth.   As the driving force behind the Double Zebra marketing company, Aaron excels in identifying untapped marketing assets, refining brand narratives, and orchestrating strategic pivots from paid advertising to organic audience growth. His insights have guided notable campaigns for consumer brands, technology firms, and professional service providers, always with a keen eye for differentiating messages that resonate deeply with target audiences. In addition to his strategic marketing expertise, Aaron hosts the Top 20 business management podcast, We Fixed It, You're Welcome, known for its sharp, humorous analysis of major corporate challenges and missteps. Each episode brings listeners inside complex business scenarios, unfolding like real-time case studies where Aaron and his panel of experts dissect high-profile decisions, offering insightful and actionable solutions. His ability to distill complex business issues into relatable, engaging discussions has garnered widespread acclaim and a dedicated following among executives and decision-makers.   Ways to connect with Aaron:   Marketing company: https://doublezebra.com Podcast: https://wefixeditpod.com LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/marketingaaron     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Hi there, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to chat with Aaron Wolpoff, who is a marketing strategist and expert in a lot of different ways. I've read his bio, which you can find in the show notes. It seems to me that he is every bit as much of an expert is his bio says he is, but we're going to find out over the next hour or so for sure. We'll we'll not pick on him too much, but, but nevertheless, it's fun to be here. Aaron, so I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. I'm glad you're here, and we're glad that we get a chance to do   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 01:58 this. Thanks, Michael, thanks for having me. You're gonna grill me for an hour, huh?   Michael Hingson ** 02:04 Oh, sure. Why not? You're used to it. You're a marketing expert.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 02:08 That's what we do. Yeah, we're always, uh, scrutiny for one thing or another.   Michael Hingson ** 02:13 I remember, I think it was back in was it 82 or 1982 or 1984 when they had the big Tylenol incident. You remember that? You know about   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 02:25 that? I do? Yeah, there's a Netflix documentary happening right now. Is there? Well, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 02:31 a bottle of Tylenol was, for those who don't know, contaminated and someone died from it. But the manufacturer of Tylenol, the CEO the next day, just got right out in front of it and said what they were going to do about removing all Tylenol from the shelves until it could be they could all be examined and so on. Just did a number of things. It was a wonderful case, it seemed to me, for how to deal with a crisis when it came up. And I find that all too many companies and organizations don't necessarily know how to do that. Do they now?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 03:09 And a lot of times they operate in crisis mode. That's the default. And no one likes to be around that, you know. So that's, I guess, step one is dealing even you know, deal with a crisis when it comes up, and make sure that your your day to day is not crisis fire as much as possible,   Michael Hingson ** 03:26 but know how to deal with a crisis, which is kind of the issue, and that's, that's what business continuity, of course, is, is really all about. I spoke at the Business Continuity Institute hybrid conference in London last October, and as one of the people who asked me to come and speak, explained, business continuity, people are the what if people that are always looking at, how do we deal with any kind of an emergency that comes up in an organization, knowing full well that nobody's really going to listen to them until there's really an emergency, and then, of course, they're indispensable, but The rest of the time they're not for   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 04:02 sure. Yeah, it's definitely that, you know, good. You bring up a good point about knowing how to deal with a crisis, because it will, it, will you run a business for long enough you have a company, no matter how big, eventually something bad is going to happen, and it's Tylenol. Was, is pre internet or, you know, we oh, yeah, good while ago they had time to formulate a response and craft it and and do a well presented, you know, public reassurance nowadays it's you'd have five seconds before you have to get something out there.   Michael Hingson ** 04:35 Well, even so, the CEO did it within, like, a day or so, just immediately came out and said what, what was initially going to be done. Of course, there was a whole lot more to it, but still, he got right out in front of it and dealt with it in a calm way, which I think is really important for businesses to do, and and I do find that so many don't and they they deal with so many different kinds of stress. Horrible things in the world, and they create more than they really should about fear anyway,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 05:07 yeah, for sure, and now I think that Tylenol wasn't ultimately responsible. I haven't watched to the end, but if I remember correctly, but sometimes these crisis, crises that companies find themselves embroiled in, are self perpetuated? Yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 05:23 Well, Tylenol wasn't responsible. Somebody did it. Somebody put what, cyanide or something in into a Tylenol bottle. So they weren't responsible, but they sure dealt with it, which is the important thing. And you know, they're, they're still with us. Yeah?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 05:38 No, they dealt with it. Well, their sales are great, everyday household product. No one can dispute it. But what I say is, with the with the instantaneousness of reach to your to your public, and to you know, consumers and public at large, a lot of crises are, can be self perpetuated, like you tweet the wrong thing, or is it called a tweet anymore? I don't know, but you know, you post something a little bit a little bit out of step with what people are think about you or thinking in general, and and now, all of a sudden, you're in the middle of something that you didn't want to be in the middle of, as a company well,   Michael Hingson ** 06:15 and I also noticed that, like the media will, so often they hear something, they report it, and they haven't necessarily checked to see the facts behind it, only to find out within an hour or two that what they reported was wrong. And they helped to sometimes promote the fear and promote the uncertainty, rather than waiting a little bit until they get all the information reasonably correct. And of course, part of the problem is they say, well, but everybody else is going to report it. So each station says everybody else is going to report it, so we have to keep up. Well, I'm not so sure about that all the time. Oh, that's very true, too, Michael, especially with, you know, off brand media outlets I'll spend with AI like, I'll be halfway through an article now, and I'll see something that's extremely generated and and I'll realize I've just wasted a whole bunch of time on a, you know, on a fake article, yeah, yeah, yeah, way, way too much. But even the mainstream media will report things very quickly to get it out there, but they don't necessarily have all the data, right. And I understand you can't wait for days to deal with things, but you should wait at least a little bit to make sure you've got data enough to report in a cogent way. And it just doesn't always happen.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 07:33 Yeah, well, I don't know who the watch keepers of that are. I'm not a conspiracy theorist in that way by any means?   Michael Hingson ** 07:41 No, no, it isn't a conspiracy. But yeah,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 07:44 yeah, no, no, I know, but it's again. I think it goes back to that tight the shortness of the cycle, like again. Tylenol waited a day to respond back in the day, which is great. But now, would you have you know, if Tylenol didn't say   Michael Hingson ** 07:59 anything for a day. If they were faced with a similar situation, people would vilify them and say, Well, wait, you waited a day to tell us something we wanted it in the first 30 seconds, yeah, oh, yeah. And that makes it more difficult, but I would hope that Tylenol would say, yeah. We waited a day because we were getting our facts together. 30 seconds is great in the media, but that doesn't work for reality, and in most cases, it doesn't. But yeah, I know what you're saying,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 08:30 Yeah, but the appetite in the 24 hour news cycle, if people are hungry for new more information, so it does push news outlets, media outlets into let's respond as quick as possible and figure out the facts along the way. Yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 08:46 Well, for fun, why don't you tell us about sort of the early era and growing up, and how you got to doing the sorts of things that you're doing now. Well, I grew up in San Diego, California. I best weather in the country. I don't care what anyone says, Yeah,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 09:03 you can't really beat it. No, I don't think anyone's gonna debate you on it. They call it the sunshine tax, because things cost a lot out here, but they do, you know, he grew up here, you put up with it. But yeah, so I grew up, grew up San Diego, college, San Diego. Life in San Diego, I've been elsewhere. I've traveled. I've seen some of the world. I like it. I've always wanted to come back, but I grew up really curious. I read a lot, I asked a lot of questions. And I also wanted, wanting to know, well, I want to know. Well, I wanted to know a lot of things about a lot of things, and I also was really scared. Is the wrong word, but I looked up to adults when I was a kid, and I didn't want to be put in a position where I was expected to know something that I didn't know. So it led to times where I'd pretend like I need you. Know, do you know? You know what this is, right? And I'd pretend like I knew, and early career, career even, and then I get called out on something, and it just was like a gut punch, like, but I'm supposed to know that, you know,   Michael Hingson ** 10:13 what did your parents think of you being so curious as you were growing up?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 10:17 They they liked it, but I was quiet, okay? Quiet, quiet, quietly, confident and curious. It's just an interesting, I guess, an interesting mix. Yeah, but no, they Oh, they indulged it. I, you know, they answered my questions. They like I said, I read a lot, so frequent trips to the library to read a lot about a lot of things, but I think, you know, professionally, you take something that's kind of a grab bag, and what do I do with all these different interests? And when I started college undeclared, I realized, you know, communications, marketing, you kind of can make a discipline out of a bunch of interests, and call it something professional. Where did you go to college? I went to UCSD. UCSD, here in San Diego, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 11:12 well, I was just up the road from you at UC Irvine. So here two good campuses,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 11:18 they are, they are and UCSD. I was back recently. It's like a it's like a city. Now, every time we go back, we see these, these kids. They're babies. They get they get food every you know, they have, like, a food nice food court. There's parking, an abundance of parking, there's theaters, there's all the things we didn't have. Of course, we had some of it, but they just have, like, what if we had one of something or 50 parking spaces, they've got 5000 you know. And if we had, you know, one one food option, they got 35 Yeah, they don't know how good they have it.   Michael Hingson ** 11:53 When I was at UC urban, I think we had 3200 undergraduates. It wasn't huge. It was in that area. Now, I think there's 31,000 or 32,000 undergrads. Oh, wow. And as one of my former physics professors joked, he's retired, but I got to meet him. I was there, and last year I was inducted as an alumni member of Phi, beta, kappa. And so we were talking, and he said, You know what UCI really stands for, don't you? Well, I didn't, I said, What? And he said, under construction indefinitely. And there's, they're always building, sure, and that's that started when I was there, but, but they are always building. And it's just an amazing place today, with so many students and graduate students, undergrads and faculty, and it's, it's an amazing place. I think I'd have a little bit more of a challenge of learning where everything is, although I could do it, if I had to go back, I could do it. Yeah, UCI is nice. But I think you could say, you could say that about any of the UCs are constantly under, under development. And, you know, that's the old one. That's the old area. And I'm like, oh, that's I went to school in the old area. I know the old area. I remember Central Park. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So you ended up majoring in Marketing and Communications,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 13:15 yeah. So I undergrad in communications. They have a really nice business school now that they did not have at the time. So I predated that, but I probably would have ended up there. I got out with a very, not knocking the school. It's a great, wonderful school. I got out with a very theory, theoretical based degree. So I knew a lot about communications from a theory based perspective. I knew about brain cognition. I took maybe one quarter of practical use it professionally. It was like a video, like a video production course, so I I learned hands on, 111, quarter out of my entire academic career. But a lot of it was learning. The learning not necessarily applied, but just a lot of theory. And I started school at 17, and I got out just shortly after my 21st birthday, so I don't know what my hurry was, but, but there I was with a lot of theory, some some internships, but not a ton of professional experience. And, you know, trying to figure it out in the work world at that point. Did you get a graduate degree or just undergrad? I did. I went back. So I did it for almost five years in in financial marketing, and then, and I wear a suit and tie to work every day, which I don't think anyone does anymore. And I'm suddenly like, like, I'm from the 30s. I'm not that old, but, but no, seriously, we, you know, to work at the at the headquarters of a international credit union. Of course, I wear a suit, no after four and a half. Years there, I went back to graduate school up in the bay the Bay Area, Bay Area, and that's when I got my masters in in marketing. Oh, where'd you go in the Bay Area? San Francisco, state. Okay, okay, yeah, really nice school. It's got one of the biggest International MBA programs in the country, I think. And got to live in that city for a couple years.   Michael Hingson ** 15:24 We lived in Novato, so North Bay, for 12 years, from 2002 to the end of June 2014 Yeah, I like that area. That's, that's the, oh, the weather isn't San Diego's. That area is still a really nice area to live as well. Again, it is pretty expensive, but still it   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 15:44 is, yeah, I it's not San Diego weather, a beautiful day. There is like nothing else. But when we first got there, I said, I want to live by the beach. That's what I know. And we got out to the beach, which is like at the end of the outer sunset, and it's in the 40s streets, and it feels like the end of the universe. It just, it just like, feels apocalyptic. And I said, I don't want to live by the beach anymore, but, but no, it was. It was a great, great learning experience, getting an MBA. I always say it's kind of like a backpack or a toolkit you walk around with, because it is all that's all application. You know, everything that I learned about theory put into practice, you got to put into practice. And so I was, I was really glad that I that I got to do that. And like I said, Live, live in, live in the Bay. For a couple years, I'd always wanted   Michael Hingson ** 16:36 to, yeah, well, that's a nice area to live. If you got to live somewhere that is one of the nicer places. So glad you got that opportunity. And having done it, as I said for 12 years, I appreciate it too. And yeah, so much to offer there.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 16:51 The only problem I had was it was in between the two.com bubbles. So literally, nothing was happening. The good side was that the apartment I was living in went for something like $5,500 before I got there, and then the draw everything dropped, you know, the bottom dropped out, and I was able to squeak by and afford living in the city. But, you know, you go for look, seeking your fortune. And there's, there's, I had just missed it. And then I left, and then it just came back. So I was, I was there during a lull. So you're the one, huh? Okay, I didn't do it, just the way Miami worked out. Did you then go back to San Diego? I did, yeah. So I've met my wife here. We moved up to the bay together, and when we were debating, when I graduated, we were thinking, do we want to drive, you know, an hour and a half Silicon Valley or someone, you know, somewhere further out just to stay in the area? Or do we want to go back to where we where we know and like, and start a life there and we, you know, send, like you said at the beginning, San Diego is not a bad place to be. So as it was never a fallback, but as a place to, you know, come back home to, yeah, I welcomed it.   Michael Hingson ** 18:08 And so what did you do when you came back to San Diego?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 18:12 So I have my best friend from childhood was starting as a photography company still does, and it was starting like a sister company, as an agency to serve the photography company, which was growing really fast, and then also, like picking up clients and building a book out of so he said, you know you're, I see you're applying for jobs, and I know that you're, you know, you're getting some offers and things, but just say no To all of them and come work with me and and at the time it was, it was running out of a was like a loft of an apartment, but it, you know, it grew to us, a small staff, and then a bigger staff, and spun off on its own. And so that's, that's what I did right out of, right out of grad school. I said no to a few things, and said there's a lot, lot worse fates than you know, spending your work day with your best friend and and growing a company out and so what exactly did you do for them? So it was like, we'll call it a boutique creative agency. It was around the time of I'm making myself sound so old. See, so there was flash, flash technology, like web banners were made with Flash. It had moved to be flash, Adobe, Flash, yeah. So companies were making these web banners, and what you call interactive we got a proficiency of making full website experiences with Flash, which not a lot of companies were doing. So because of that, it led to some really interesting opportunities and clients and being able to take on a capability, a proficiency that you know for a time. Uh was, was uh as a differentiator, say, you know, you could have a web banner and an old website, or you could have a flash, interactive website where you take your users on an experience with music and all the things that seem so dated now,   Michael Hingson ** 20:14 well, and of course, unfortunately, a lot of that content wasn't very accessible, so some of us didn't really get access to a lot of it, and I don't remember whether Adobe really worked to make flash all that accessible. They dealt with other things, but I'm not sure that flash ever really was. Yeah, I'm with you on that. I really, I don't think so.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 20:38 What we would wind up doing is making parallel websites, but, but then mobile became a thing, and then you'd make a third version of a website, and it just got tedious. And really it's when the iPhone came out. It just it flash got stopped in its tracks, like it was like a week, and then action script, which is the language that it runs on, and all the all the capabilities and proficiencies, just there was no use for it anymore.   Michael Hingson ** 21:07 Well, and and the iPhone came out, as you said, and one of the things that happened fairly early on was that, because they were going to be sued, Apple agreed to make the I devices accessible, and they did something that hadn't really been done up to that time. They set the trend for it. They built accessibility into the operating systems, and they built the ability to have accessibility into the operating systems. The one thing that I wish that Apple would do even a little bit more of than they do, than they do today, although it's better than it used to be, is I wish they would mandate, or require people who are going to put apps in the App Store, for example, to make sure that the apps are accessible. They have guidelines. They have all sorts of information about how to do it, but they don't really require it, and so you can still get inaccessible apps, which is unfortunate,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 22:09 that is Yeah, and like you said, with Flash, an entire you know, ecosystem had limited to no accessibility, so   Michael Hingson ** 22:16 and making additional on another website, Yeah, a lot of places did that, but they weren't totally equal, because they would make enough of the website, well, they would make the website have enough content to be able to do things, but they didn't have everything that they had on the graphical or flash website, and so It was definitely there, but it wasn't really, truly equal, which is unfortunate, and so now it's a lot better.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 22:46 Yeah, it is no and I hate to say it, but if it came down to limited time, limited budget, limited everything you want to make something that is usable and efficient, but no, I mean, I can't speak for all developers, but no, it would be hard. You'd be hard pressed to create a an equally parallel experience with full accessibility at the time.   Michael Hingson ** 23:16 Yeah, yeah, you would. And it is a lot better. And there's, there's still stuff that needs to be done, but I think over time, AI is going to help some of that. And it is already made. It isn't perfect yet, but even some graphics and so on can be described by AI. And we're seeing things improve over, over, kind of what they were. So we're making progress, which is good,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 23:44 yeah, no, I'm really happy about that. And with with AI and AI can go through and parse your code and build in all you know, everything that that needs to happen, there's a lot less excuse for for not making something as accessible as it can   Michael Hingson ** 23:59 be, yeah, but people still ignore it to a large degree. Still, only about 3% of all websites really have taken the time to put some level of accessibility into them. So there's still a lot to be done, and it's just not that magical or that hard, but it's mostly, I think, education. People don't know, they don't know that it can be done. They don't think about it being done, or they don't do it initially, and so then it becomes a lot more expensive to do later on, because you got to go back and redo   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 24:28 it, all right, yeah, anything, anytime you have to do something, something retroactive or rebuild, you're, yeah, you're starting from not a great place.   Michael Hingson ** 24:37 So how long did you work with your friend?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 24:42 A really long time, because I did the studio, and then I wound up keeping that alive. But going over to the photography side, the company really grew. Had a team of staff photographers, had a team of, like a network of photographers, and. And was doing quite, quite a lot, an abundance of events every year, weddings and corporate and all types of things. So all in, I was with the company till, gosh, I want to say, like, 2014 or so. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 25:21 And then what did you go off and do?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 25:25 So then I worked for an agency, so I got started with creative and, well, rewinding, I got started with financial marketing, with the suit and tie. But then I went into creative, and I've tried pretty much every aspect of marketing I hadn't done marketing automation and email sequences and CRMs and outreach and those types of things. So that was the agency I worked for that was their specialization, which I like, to a degree, but it's, it's not my, not my home base. Yeah, there's, there's people that love and breathe automation. I like having interjecting some, you know, some type of personal aspect into the what you're putting out there. And I have to wrestle with that as ai, ai keeps growing in prominence, like, Where's the place for the human, creative? But I did that for a little while, and then I've been on my own for the past six or seven years.   Michael Hingson ** 26:26 So what is it you do today? Exactly?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 26:30 So I'm, we'll call it a fractional CMO, or a fractional marketing advisor. So I come in and help companies grow their their marketing and figure themselves out. I've gone I work with large companies. I've kind of gone back to early stage startups and and tech companies. I just find that they're doing really more, a lot more interesting things right now with the market the way it is. They're taking more chances and and they're they're moving faster. I like to move pretty quick, so that's where my head's at. And I'm doing more. We'll call em like CO entrepreneurial ventures with my clients, as opposed to just a pure agency service model, which is interesting. And and I got my own podcast. There you go. Yeah. What's your podcast called? Not to keep you busy, it's called, we fixed it. You're welcome. There you   Michael Hingson ** 27:25 go. And it seems to me, if my memory hasn't failed me, even though I don't take one of those memory or brain supplements, we were on it not too long ago, talking about Uber, which was fun.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 27:39 We had you on there. I don't know which episode will drop first, this one or or the one you were on, but we sure enjoyed having you on there.   Michael Hingson ** 27:46 Well, it was fun. Well, we'll have to do more of it, and I think it'd be fun to but so you own your own business. Then today,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 27:53 I do, yeah, it's called Double zebra.   Michael Hingson ** 27:56 Now, how did you come up with that name?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 27:59 It's two basic elements, so basic, black and white, something unremarkable, but if you can take it and multiply it or repeat it, then you're onto something interesting.   Michael Hingson ** 28:13 Lots of stripes. Yeah, lots of stripes.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 28:17 And it's always fun when I talk to someone in the UK or Australia, or then they say zebra or zebra, right? I get to hear the way they say it. It's that's fun. Occasionally I get double double zero. People will miss misname it and double zero. That's his   Michael Hingson ** 28:34 company's that. But has anybody called it double Zed yet?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 28:39 No, that's a new one.   Michael Hingson ** 28:41 Yeah? Well, you never know. Maybe we've given somebody the idea now. Yeah, yeah. Well, so I'm I'm curious. You obviously do a lot to analyze and help people in critique in corporate mishaps. Have you ever seen a particular business mistake that you really admire and just really love, its audacity,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 29:07 where it came out wrong, but I liked it anyway, yeah, oh, man,   Michael Hingson ** 29:13 let's see, or one maybe, where they learned from their mistake and fixed it. But still, yeah, sure.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 29:23 Yeah, that's a good one. I like, I like bold moves, even if they're wrong, as long as they don't, you know, they're not harmful to people I don't know. Let's go. I'm I'm making myself old. Let's go back to Crystal crystal. Pepsi, there you go for that. But that was just such a fun idea at the time. You know, we're the new generation and, and this is the 90s, and everything's new now, and we're going to take the color out of out of soda, I know we're and we're going to take it and just make it what you know, but a little unfamiliar, right? Right? It's Crystal Pepsi, and the ads were cool, and it was just very of the moment. Now, that moment didn't last very long, no, and the public didn't, didn't hold on to it very long. But there's, you know, it was, it let you question, and I in a good way, what you thought about what is even a Pepsi. And it worked. It was they brought it back, like for a very short time, five, I want to say five or six years ago, just because people had a nostalgia for it. But yeah, big, big, bold, we're confident this is the new everyone's going to be talking about this for a long time, and we're going to put a huge budget behind it, Crystal Pepsi. And it it didn't, but yeah, I liked it.   Michael Hingson ** 30:45 So why is that that is clearly somebody had to put a lot of effort into the concept, and must have gotten some sort of message that it would be very successful, but then it wasn't,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 31:00 yeah, yeah. For something like that, you have to get buy in at so many levels. You know, you have an agency saying, this is the right thing to do. You have CD, your leadership saying, No, I don't know. Let's pull back. Whenever an agency gets away with something and and spends a bunch of client money and it's just audacious, and I can't believe they did it. I know how many levels of buy in they had to get, yeah, to say, Trust me. Trust me. And a lot of times it works, you know, if they do something that just no one else had had thought of or wasn't willing to do, and then you see that they got through all those levels of bureaucracy and they were able to pull it off.   Michael Hingson ** 31:39 When it works. I love it. When it doesn't work. I love it, you know, just, just the fact that they did it, yeah, you got to admire that. Gotta admire it. They pulled it off, yeah. My favorite is still ranch flavored Fritos. They disappeared, and I've never understood why I love ranch flavored Fritos. And we had them in New Jersey and so on. And then we got, I think, out to California. But by that time, they had started to fade away, and I still have never understood why. Since people love ranch food so   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 32:06 much, that's a good one. I don't know that. I know those because it does, it does that one actually fill a market need. If there's Doritos, there's, you know, the ranch, I don't know if they were, they different.   Michael Hingson ** 32:17 They were Fritos, but they they did have ranch you know they were, they were ranch flavored, and I thought they were great. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know that one didn't hit because they have, I think they have chili flavor. They have regular. Do they have anything else honey barbecue? I don't know. I don't know, but I do still like regular, but I love ranch flavored the best. Now, I heard last week that Honey Nut Cheerios are going away. General Mills is getting rid of honey nut cheerios. No, is that real? That's what I heard on the news. Okay, I believe you, but I'll look it up anyway. Well, it's interesting. I don't know why, after so many years, they would but there have been other examples of cereals and so on that were around for a while and left and, well, Captain Crunch was Captain Crunch was one, and I'm not sure if lucky charms are still around. And then there was one called twinkles.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 33:13 And I know all those except twinkles, but I would if you asked me, I would say, Honey Nut Cheerios. There's I would say their sales are better than Cheerios, or at least I would think so, yeah, at least a good portfolio company. Well, who knows, who knows, but I do know that Gen Z and millennials eat cereal a lot less than us older folks, because it takes work to put milk and cereal into a bowl, and it's not pre made, yeah. So maybe it's got to do with, you know, changing eating habits and consumer preferences   Michael Hingson ** 33:48 must be Yeah, and they're not enough of us, older, more experienced people to to counteract that. But you know, well, we'll see Yeah, as long as they don't get rid of the formula because it may come back. Yeah, well, now   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 34:03 Yeah, exactly between nostalgia and reboots and remakes and nothing's gone forever, everything comes back eventually.   Michael Hingson ** 34:10 Yeah, it does in all the work that you've done. Have you ever had to completely rethink and remake your approach and do something different?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 34:24 Yeah, well, there's been times where I've been on uncharted territory. I worked with an EV company before EVs were a thing, and it was going, actually going head to head with with Tesla. But the thing there's they keep trying to bring it back and crowd sourcing it and all that stuff. It's, but at the time, it was like, I said it was like, which is gonna make it first this company, or Tesla, but, but this one looks like a, it looks, it feels like a spaceship. It's got, like space. It's a, it's, it's really. Be really unique. So the one that that is more like a family car one out probably rightly so. But there was no consumer understanding of not, let alone our preference, like there is now for an EV and what do I do? I have to plug it in somewhere and and all those things. So I had to rethink, you know what? There's no playbook for that yet. I guess I have to kind of work on it. And they were only in prototyping at the point where we came in and had to launch this, you know, teaser and teaser campaign for it, and build up awareness and demand for this thing that existed on a computer at the time.   Michael Hingson ** 35:43 What? Why is Tesla so successful?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 35:48 Because they spent a bunch of money. Okay, that helps? Yeah, they were playing the long game. They could outspend competitors. They've got the unique distribution model. And they kind of like, I said, retrained consumers into how you buy a car, why you buy a car, and, and I think politics aside, people love their people love their teslas. You don't. My understanding is you don't have to do a whole lot once you buy it. And, and they they, like I said, they had the money to throw at it, that they could wait, wait it out and wait out that when you do anything with retraining consumers or behavior change or telling them you know, your old car is bad, your new this new one's good, that's the most. We'll call it costly and and difficult forms of marketing is retraining behavior. But they, they had the money to write it out and and their products great, you know, again, I'm not a Tesla enthusiast, but it's, it looks good. People love it. I you know, they run great from everything that I know, but so did a lot of other companies. So I think they just had the confidence in what they were doing to throw money at it and wait, be patient and well,   Michael Hingson ** 37:19 they're around there again the the Tesla is another example of not nearly as accessible as it should be and and I recognize that I'm not going to be the primary driver of a Tesla today, although I have driven a Tesla down Interstate 15, about 15 miles the driver was in the car, but, but I did it for about 15 miles going down I 15 and fully appreciate what autonomous vehicles will be able to do. We're way too much still on the cusp, and I think that people who just poo poo them are missing it. But I also know we're not there yet, but the day is going to come when there's going to be a lot more reliability, a lot less potential for accidents. But the thing that I find, like with the Tesla from a passenger standpoint, is I can't do any of the things that a that a sighted passenger can do. I can't unless it's changed in the last couple of years. I can't manipulate the radio. I can't do the other things that that that passengers might do in the Tesla, and I should be able to do that, and of all the vehicles where they ought to have access and could, the Tesla would be one, and they could do it even still using touch screens. I mean, the iPhone, for example, is all touch screen. But Apple was very creative about creating a mechanism to allow a person to not need to look at the screen using VoiceOver, the screen reader on the iPhone, but having a new set of gestures that were created that work with VoiceOver so that I could interact with that screen just as well as you can.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 38:59 That's interesting that you say that, you know, Apple was working on a car for a while, and I don't know to a fact, but I bet they were thinking through accessibility and building that into every turn, or at least planning to,   Michael Hingson ** 39:13 oh, I'm sure they were. And the reality is, it isn't again. It isn't that magical to do. It would be simple for the Teslas and and other vehicles to do it. But, you know, we're we're not there mentally. And that's of course, the whole issue is that we just societally don't tend to really look at accessibility like we should. My view of of, say, the apple the iPhone, still is that they could be marketing the screen reader software that I use, which is built into the system already. They could, they could do some things to mark market that a whole lot more than they already do for sighted people. Your iPhone rings, um. You have to tap it a lot of times to be able to answer it. Why can't they create a mode when you're in a vehicle where a lot more of that is verbally, spoken and handled through voice output from the phone and voice input from you, without ever having to look at or interact with the screen.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 40:19 I bet you're right, yeah, it's just another app at that point   Michael Hingson ** 40:22 well, and it's what I do. I mean, it's the way I operate with it. So I just think that they could, they could be more creative. There's so many examples of things that begin in one way and alter themselves or become altered. The typewriter, for example, was originally developed for a blind Countess to be able to communicate with her lover without her husband finding out her husband wasn't very attentive to her anyway. But the point is that the, I think the lover, created the this device where she could actually sit down and type a letter and seal it and give it to a maid or someone to give to, to her, her friend. And that's how the typewriter other other people had created, some examples, but the typewriter from her was probably the thing that most led to what we have today.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 41:17 Oh, I didn't know that. But let me Michael, let me ask you. So I was in LA not too long ago, and they have, you know, driverless vehicles are not the form yet, but they we, I saw them around the city. What do you think about driverless vehicles in terms of accessibility or otherwise?   Michael Hingson ** 41:32 Well, again, so, so the most basic challenge that, fortunately, they haven't really pushed which is great, is okay, you're driving along in an autonomous vehicle and you lose connection, or whatever. How are you going to be able to pull it off to the side of the road? Now, some people have talked about saying that there, there has to be a law that only sighted people could well the sighted people a sighted person has to be in the vehicle. The reality is, the technology has already been developed to allow a blind person to get behind the wheel of a car and have enough information to be able to drive that vehicle just as well, or nearly as well, as a sighted person. But I think for this, from the standpoint of autonomousness, I'm all for it. I think we're going to continue to see it. It's going to continue to get better. It is getting better daily. So I haven't ridden in a fully autonomous vehicle, but I do believe that that those vehicles need to make sure, or the manufacturers need to make sure that they really do put accessibility into it. I should be able to give the vehicle all the instructions and get all the information that any sighted person would get from the vehicle, and the technology absolutely exists to do that today. So I think we will continue to see that, and I think it will get better all the way around. I don't know whether, well, I think they that actually there have been examples of blind people who've gotten into an autonomous vehicle where there wasn't a sighted person, and they've been able to function with it pretty well. So I don't see why it should be a problem at all, and it's only going to get   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 43:22 better. Yeah, for sure. And I keep thinking, you know, accessibility would be a prior priority in autonomous vehicles, but I keep learning from you, you know you were on our show and and our discussions, that the priorities are not always in line and not always where they necessarily should   Michael Hingson ** 43:39 be. Well. And again, there are reasons for it, and while I might not like it, I understand it, and that is, a lot of it is education, and a lot of it is is awareness. Most schools that teach people how to code to develop websites don't spend a lot of time dealing with accessibility, even though putting all the codes in and creating accessible websites is not a magically difficult thing to do, but it's an awareness issue. And so yeah, we're just going to have to continue to fight the fight and work toward getting people to be more aware of why it's necessary. And in reality, I do believe that there is a lot of truth to this fact that making things more accessible for me will help other people as well, because by having not well, voice input, certainly in a vehicle, but voice output and so on, and a way for me to accessibly, be able to input information into an autonomous vehicle to take to have it take me where I want to go, is only going to help everyone else as well. A lot of things that I need would benefit sighted people so well, so much.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 44:56 Yeah, you're exactly right. Yeah, AI assisted. And voice input and all those things, they are universally loved and accepted now, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 45:07 it's getting better. The unemployment rate is still very high among, for example, employable blind people, because all too many people still think blind people can't work, even though they can. So it's all based on prejudice rather than reality, and we're, we're, we're just going to have to continue to work to try to deal with the issues. I wrote an article a couple of years ago. One of the things where we're constantly identified in the world is we're blind or visually impaired. And the problem with visually impaired is visually we're not different simply because we don't see and impaired, we are not we're getting people slowly to switch to blind and low vision, deaf people and hard of hearing people did that years ago. If you tell a deaf person they're hearing impaired, they're liable to deck you on the spot. Yeah, and blind people haven't progressed to that point, but it's getting there, and the reality is blind and low vision is a much more appropriate terminology to use, and it's not equating us to not having eyesight by saying we're impaired, you know. So it's it's an ongoing process, and all we can do is continue to work at it?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 46:21 Yeah, no. And I appreciate that you do. Like I said, education and retraining is, is call it marketing or call it, you know, just the way people should behave. But it's, that's, it's hard. It's one of the hardest things to do.   Michael Hingson ** 46:36 But, you know, we're making progress, and we'll, we'll continue to do that, and I think over time we'll we'll see things improve. It may not happen as quickly as we'd like, but I also believe that I and other people who are blind do need to be educators. We need to teach people. We need to be patient enough to do that. And you know, I see so often articles written about Me who talk about how my guide dog led me out of the World Trade Center. The guide dog doesn't lead anybody anywhere. That's not the job of the dog. The dog's job is to make sure that we walk safely. It's my job to know where to go and how to get there. So a guide dog guides and will make sure that we walk safely. But I'm the one that has to tell the dog, step by step, where I want the dog to go, and that story is really the crux of what I talk about many times when I travel and speak to talk to the public about what happened in the World Trade Center, because I spent a lot of time learning what I needed to do in order to escape safely and on September 11, not ever Having anticipated that we would need that kind of information, but still preparing for it, the mindset kicked in, and it all worked well.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 47:49 You You and I talked about Uber on on my show, when you came on, and we gave them a little ding and figured out some stuff for them, what in terms of accessibility, and, you know, just general corporate citizenship, what's what's a company that, let's give them a give, give, call them out for a good reason? What's a company that's doing a good job, in your eyes, in your mind, for accessibility, maybe an unexpected one.   Michael Hingson ** 48:20 Well, as I mentioned before, I think Apple is doing a lot of good things. I think Microsoft is doing some good I think they could do better than they are in in some ways, but they're working at it. I wish Google would put a little bit more emphasis on making its you its interface more more usable to you really use the like with Google Docs and so on. You have to hurt learn a whole lot of different commands to make part of that system work, rather than it being as straightforward as it should be, there's some new companies coming up. There's a new company called inno search. Inno search.ai, it was primarily designed at this point for blind and low vision people. The idea behind inner search is to have any a way of dealing with E commerce and getting people to be able to help get help shopping and so on. So they actually have a a phone number. It's, I think it's 855, shop, G, P, T, and you can go in, and you can talk to the bot and tell it what you want, and it can help fill up a shopping cart. It's using artificial intelligence, but it understands really well. I have yet to hear it tell me I don't understand what you want. Sometimes it gives me a lot of things that more than I than I'm searching for. So there, there's work that needs to be done, but in a search is really a very clever company that is spending a lot of time working to make. Sure that everything that it does to make a shopping experience enjoyable is also making sure that it's accessible.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 50:08 Oh, that's really interesting. Now, with with my podcast, and just in general, I spend a lot of time critiquing companies and and not taking them to test, but figuring out how to make them better. But I always like the opportunity to say you did something well, like even quietly, or you're, you know, people are finding you because of a certain something you didn't you took it upon yourselves to do and figure out   Michael Hingson ** 50:34 there's an audio editor, and we use it some unstoppable mindset called Reaper. And Reaper is a really great digital audio workstation product. And there is a whole series of scripts that have been written that make Reaper incredibly accessible as an audio editing tool. It's really great. It's about one of the most accessible products that I think I have seen is because they've done so well with it, which is kind of cool.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 51:06 Oh, very nice. Okay, good. It's not even expensive. You gave me two to look, to pay attention to, and, you know, Track, track, along with,   Michael Hingson ** 51:16 yeah, they're, they're, they're fun. So what do people assume about you that isn't true or that you don't think is true?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 51:25 People say, I'm quiet at times, guess going back to childhood, but there's time, there's situation. It's it's situational. There's times where I don't have to be the loudest person in the room or or be the one to talk the most, I can hang back and observe, but I would not categorize myself as quiet, you know, like I said, it's environmental. But now I've got plenty to say. You just have to engage me, I guess.   Michael Hingson ** 51:56 Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting. I'm trying to remember   Michael Hingson ** 52:04 on Shark Tank, what's Mark's last name, Cuban. Cuban. It's interesting to watch Mark on Shark Tank. I don't know whether he's really a quiet person normally, but I see when I watch Shark Tank. The other guys, like Mr. Wonderful with Kevin are talking all the time, and Mark just sits back and doesn't say anything for the longest period of time, and then he drops a bomb and bids and wins. Right? He's just really clever about the way he does it. I think there's a lot to be said for not just having to speak up every single time, but rather really thinking things through. And he clearly does that,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 52:46 yeah, yeah, you have to appreciate that. And I think that's part of the reason that you know, when I came time to do a podcast, I did a panel show, because I'm surrounded by bright, interesting, articulate people, you included as coming on with us and and I don't have to fill every second. I can, I can, I, you know, I can intake information and think for a second and then maybe have a   Michael Hingson ** 53:15 response. Well, I think that makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? I mean, it's the way it really ought to be.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 53:20 Yeah, if you got to fill an hour by yourself, you're always on, right?   Michael Hingson ** 53:26 Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I know when I travel to speak. I figure that when I land somewhere, I'm on until I leave again. So I always enjoy reading books, especially going and coming on airplanes. And then I can be on the whole time. I am wherever I have to be, and then when I get on the airplane to come home, I can relax again.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 53:45 Now, I like that. And I know, you keynote, I think I'd rather moderate, you know, I'll say something when I have something to say, and let other people talk for a while. Well, you gotta, you have a great story, and you're, you know, I'm glad you're getting it out there.   Michael Hingson ** 53:58 Well, if anybody needs a keynote speaker. Just saying, for everybody listening, feel free to email me. I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at Michael H i@accessibe.com or speaker at Michael hingson.com always looking for speaking engagements. Then we got that one in. I'm glad, but, but you know, for you, is there a podcast episode that you haven't done, that you really want to do, that just seems to be eluding you?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 54:28 There are a couple that got away. I wanted to do one about Sesame Street because it was without a it was looking like it was going to be without a home. And that's such a hallmark of my childhood. And so many, yeah, I think they worked out a deal, which is probably what I was going to propose with. It's like a CO production deal with Netflix. So it seems like they're safe for the foreseeable future. But what was the other I think there's, there's at least one or two more where maybe the guests didn't line up, or. Or the timeliness didn't work. I was going to have someone connected to Big Lots. You remember Big Lots? I think they're still around to some degree, but I think they are, come on and tell me their story, because they've, you know, they've been on the brink of extinction for a little while. So it's usually, it's either a timing thing, with the with with the guest, or the news cycle has just maybe gone on and moved past us.   Michael Hingson ** 55:28 But, yeah, I know people wrote off Red Lobster for a while, but they're still around.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 55:35 They're still around. That would be a good one. Yeah, their endless shrimp didn't do them any favors. No, that didn't help a whole lot, but it's the companies, even the ones we've done already, you know, they they're still six months later. Toilet hasn't been even a full year of our show yet, but in a year, I bet there's, you know, we could revisit them all over again, and they're still going to find themselves in, I don't know, hot water, but some kind of controversy for one reason or another. And we'll, we'll try to help them out again.   Michael Hingson ** 56:06 Have you seen any successes from the podcast episodes where a company did listen to you and has made some changes?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 56:15 I don't know that. I can correlate one to one. We know that they listen. We can look at the metrics and where the where the list listens, are coming from, especially with LinkedIn, gives you some engagement and tells you which companies are paying attention. So we know that they are and they have now, whether they took that and, you know, implemented it, we have a disclaimer saying, Don't do it. You know, we're not there to give you unfiltered legal advice. You know, don't hold us accountable for anything we say. But if we said something good and you like it, do it. So, you know, I don't know to a T if they have then we probably given away billions of dollars worth of fixes. But, you know, I don't know the correlation between those who have listened and those who have acted on something that we might have, you know, alluded to or set out, right? But it has. We've been the times that we take it really seriously. We've we've predicted some things that have come come to pass.   Michael Hingson ** 57:13 That's cool, yeah. Well, you certainly had a great career, and you've done a lot of interesting things. If you had to suddenly change careers and do something entirely different from what you're doing, what would it be?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 57:26 Oh, man, my family laughs at me, but I think it would be a furniture salesman. There you go. Yeah, I don't know why. There's something about it's just enough repetition and just enough creativity. I guess, where people come in, you tell them, you know you, they tell you their story, you know, you get to know them. And then you say, Oh, well, this sofa would be amazing, you know, and not, not one with endless varieties, not one with with two models somewhere in between. Yeah, I think that would be it keeps you on your feet.   Michael Hingson ** 58:05 Furniture salesman, well, if you, you know, if you get too bored, math is homes and Bob's furniture probably looking for people.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 58:12 Yeah, I could probably do that at night.   Michael Hingson ** 58:18 What advice do you give to people who are just starting out, or what kinds of things do you would you give to people we have ideas and thoughts?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 58:27 So I've done a lot of mentoring. I've done a lot of one on one calls. They told I always work with an organization. They told me I did 100 plus calls. I always tell people to take use the create their own momentum, so you can apply for things, you can stand in line, you can wait, or you can come up with your own idea and test it out and say, I'm doing this. Who wants in? And the minute you have an idea, people are interested. You know, you're on to something. Let me see what that's all about. You know, I want to be one of the three that you're looking for. So I tell them, create their own momentum. Try to flip the power dynamic. So if you're asking for a job, how do you get the person that you're asking to want something from you and and do things that are take on, things that are within your control?   Michael Hingson ** 59:18 Right? Right? Well, if you had to go back and tell the younger Aaron something from years ago, what would you give him in the way of advice?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 59:30 Be more vulnerable. Don't pretend you know everything. There you go. And you don't need to know everything. You need to know what you know. And then get a little better and get a little better.   Michael Hingson ** 59:43 One of the things that I constantly tell people who I hire as salespeople is you can be a student, at least for a year. Don't hesitate to ask your customers questions because they're not out to. Get you. They want you to succeed. And if you interact with your customers and you're willing to learn from them, they're willing to teach, and you'll learn so much that you never would have thought you would learn. I just think that's such a great concept.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 1:00:12 Oh, exactly right. Yeah. As soon as I started saying that to clients, you know, they would throw out an industry term. As soon as I've said I don't know what that is, can you explain it to me? Yeah? And they did, and the world didn't fall apart. And I didn't, you know, didn't look like the idiot that I thought I would when we went on with our day. Yeah, that whole protective barrier that I worked so hard to keep up as a facade, I didn't have to do it, and it was so freeing. Yeah, yeah, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:41 I hear you. Well, this has been fun. We've been doing it for an hour. Can you believe it? Oh, hey, that was a quick hour. I know it was a lot of fun. Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank you all for listening. Please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening or watching. We really appreciate it. We value your thoughts. I'd love to hear from you and get your thoughts on our episode today. And I'm sure Aaron would like that as well, and I'll give you an email address in a moment. But Aaron, if people want to reach out to you and maybe use your services, how do they do that?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 1:01:12 Yeah, so two ways you can check me out, at double zebra, z, E, B, R, A, double zebra.com and the podcast, I encourage you to check out too. We fixed it. Pod.com, we fixed it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:25 Pod.com, there you go. So reach out to Aaron and get marketing stuff done and again. Thank you all. My email address, if you'd like to talk to us, is Michael, H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and if you know anyone else who you think ought to be a guest on our podcast, we'd love it if you give us an introduction. We're always looking for people, so please do and again. Aaron, I just want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 1:01:58 That was great. Thanks for having me. Michael,   **Michael Hingson ** 1:02:05 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Today we welcome James Nixey onto the R2Kast!

The Third Tactile Reading and Graphics Conference took place at the Muziekgebouw aan 't IJ, Amsterdam, the Netherlands, from Monday 2 to Wednesday 4 June 2025. The event brought together over 400 participants from around the world to discuss braille, tactile graphics and much more. The host organisations were Bartiméus, Koninklijke/Royal Dutch Visio and Dedicon. In a special event on Tuesday 17 June 2025, we brought together an eclectic panel of attendees to relive the Conference and share their key takeaways. Jesse Wienholts, one of the conference "Sidekicks", from Sensotec, makers of the Tactinom Judy Dixon, President of the International Council on English Braille (ICEB) Chantelle Griffiths, Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer of the Tactile and Technology Literacy Centre The conference app was provided by Yellenge. Live audio description was provided by Condatsine. The conference was opened by Princess Laurentien of the Netherlands, founder of Stichting Lezen & Schrijven. Other noteable mentions UV printed hand frame from Deutscher Blinden- und Sehbehindertenverband e.V. (DBSV) Churchill Fellowship NZ Eindhoven University of Technology research on tactile illusions Braillo and Zychem Index Braille Braille Doodle from the Touch Pad Pro Foundation, sold in the UK by Sight and Sound Technology and trialled at New College Worcester Monarch and TactileView from HumanWare The Monarch was shown with JAWS from Vispero Dot Pad X from Dot Inc. Braille On Display by Jackie Brown (STRIVE Ability) Keynote from Jonathan Mosen, Executive Director, Accessibility Excellence at the National Federation of the Blind (NFB) 200 Years of Braille Celebration from Living Braille from the Braille Working Group of the European Blind Union Amsterdam750 Eurovision Song Contest

Rob Westerberg is the 2023 Recipient of the Outstanding Music Educator of the Year for the Northeast by the National Federation of State High Schools. Buckle up - we dive deep! To gain access to all show notes and audio files please Subscribe to the podcast and consider supporting the show on Patreon - using the button at the top of thegrowingbanddirector.com Our mission is to share practical  advice and explore topics that will help every band director, no matter your experience level, as well as music education students who are working to join us in the coming years. Connect with us with comments or ideas Follow the show: Podcast website : Thegrowingbanddirector.com On Youtube The Growing Band Director  Facebook-The Growing Band Director Podcast Group Instagram @thegrowingbanddirector Tik Tok @thegrowingbanddirector If you like what you hear please: Leave a Five Star Review and  Share us with another band director!

In this episode, we look at what farmers can expect from new Defra secretary Emma Reynolds - her policies and personality.To discuss that and more, we're joined by Jonathan Reynolds, director of external affairs at the Country Land and Business Association.The National Federation of Young Farmers' Clubs says it has been told it will no longer receive a Defra grant – Defra says the suggestion is "false".Who is right?Shadow farm minister Robbie Moore gives us his thoughts.And sixth-formers at a Lincolnshire school can now study agriculture – we speak to their headteacher and find out all about the new course.This episode of the Farmers Weekly Podcast is co-hosted by Johann Tasker, Louise Impey and Hugh Broom.Contact or follow Johann (X): @johanntaskerContact or follow Louise (X): @louisearableContact or follow (X): @sondesplacefarmFor Farmers Weekly, visit fwi.co.uk or follow @farmersweeklyTo contact the Farmers Weekly Podcast, email podcast@fwi.co.uk.In the UK, you can also text the word FARM followed by your message to 88 44 0.

Project 2025 began quietly in conservative conference rooms but today stands at the center of a storm over the future of American governance. Born from the Heritage Foundation and assembled by over one hundred right-leaning partners, its 900-page “Mandate for Leadership” lays out not just a governing plan for a future Republican administration, but a wholesale reimagining of the federal government itself. Supporters rally around its stated purpose: as Heritage's Kevin Roberts says, “We're going to impose the will of the people through a reinvigorated executive branch.” Critics, however, warn of what the American Civil Liberties Union calls “a blueprint for replacing the rule of law with right-wing ideals.”One of Project 2025's boldest proposals is placing the entire executive branch—agencies like the Department of Justice, the FBI, even the Federal Communications Commission—under direct presidential control. The aim, described by Roberts as “ending the era of the ‘independent' bureaucracy,” is rooted in the controversial unitary executive theory. The project calls for every senior official in the State Department to be replaced by a president's handpicked loyalists, bypassing the usual Senate confirmation process. Kiron Skinner, who authored the State Department chapter, explained her vision by insisting most career employees are “too left-wing” and must make way for “warriors for the conservative agenda.”The methods are as consequential as the proposals. Project 2025 revives the idea of “Schedule F,” a bureaucratic mechanism that lets a president reclassify tens of thousands of civil service jobs, stripping long-held protections. The National Federation of Federal Employees warns that by transforming apolitical government roles into political appointments, Project 2025 would make it nearly impossible for career staff to resist pressure or political overreach. As one union leader put it, “Without civil service protections, federal employees will be powerless to stop them.”The details ripple into almost every corner of American life. A return-to-office mandate for federal workers, for example, upends years of flexible work arrangements, with federal employees ordered back to their offices, often within tight timelines. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, an agency created after the 2008 financial crisis to oversee banks and safeguard consumers, is marked for elimination. Agencies like USAID, which manages American humanitarian aid abroad, have already faced drastic cuts and layoffs, with numbers reaching into the hundreds of thousands according to Challenger, Gray & Christmas.Labor unions also appear squarely in the project's crosshairs, with proposals to ban public-sector unions, eliminate card check elections, and speed up the process to decertify existing unions. Another core promise is what Project 2025 calls the “restoration of the family.” The authors advocate policies that would restrict abortion, curtail LGBTQ+ rights, and reinforce what they describe as traditional values. According to the project's summary, the intent is to make the family “the centerpiece of American life,” a phrase that has triggered heated debate over what counts as a family in today's country.Some experts warn these moves risk upending critical norms. Legal scholars have voiced concern that Project 2025, if realized, could hurry the erosion of separation of powers, spark legal battles over constitutional rights, and bring about what many label the most extensive centralization of power in the modern era. Detractors have called it a “systemic, ruthless plan to undermine democracy,” while supporters argue it's a necessary correction to what they see as runaway bureaucracy.Looking ahead, the nation waits. The next major turning point arrives this November, when voters will decide not only on a president but, indirectly, on whether Project 2025's policies—already mapped, written, and ready for day one—will be greenlit for action. Whichever side prevails, both the vision and the pushback it's generated signal a lasting confrontation over the future shape of American democracy.Thank you for tuning in, and come back next week for more.Some great Deals https://amzn.to/49SJ3QsFor more check out http://www.quietplease.ai

As you will learn, our guest this time, Walden Hughes, is blind and has a speech issue. However, as you also will discover none of this has stopped Walden from doing what he wants and likes. I would not say Walden is driven. Instead, I would describe Walden as a man of vision who works calmly to accomplish whatever task he wishes to undertake. Walden grew up in Southern California including attending and graduating from the University of California at Irvine. Walden also received his Master's degree from UCI. Walden's professional life has been in the financial arena where he has proven quite successful. However, Walden also had other plans for his life. He has had a love of vintage radio programs since he was a child. For him, however, it wasn't enough to listen to programs. He found ways to meet hundreds of people who were involved in radio and early television. His interviews air regularly on www.yesterdayusa.net which he now directs. Walden is one of those people who works to make life better for others through the various entertainment projects he undertakes and helps manage. I hope you find Walden's life attitude stimulating and inspiring. About the Guest: With deep roots in U.S. history and a lifelong passion for nostalgic entertainment, Walden Hughes has built an impressive career as an entertainment consultant, producer, and historian of old-time radio. Since beginning his collection in 1976, he has amassed over 50,000 shows and has gone on to produce live events, conventions, and radio recreations across the country, interviewing over 200 celebrities along the way. A graduate of UC Irvine with both a BA in Economics and Political Science and an MBA in Accounting/Finance, he also spent a decade in the investment field before fully embracing his love of entertainment history. His leadership includes serving as Lions Club President, President of Radio Enthusiasts of Puget Sound, and long-time board member of SPERDVAC, earning numerous honors such as the Eagle Scout rank, Herb Ellis Award, and the Dick Beals Award. Today, he continues to preserve and celebrate the legacy of radio and entertainment through Yesterday USA and beyond. Ways to connect with Walden: SPERDVAC: https://m.facebook.com/sperdvacconvention/ Yesterday USA: https://www.facebook.com/share/16jHW7NdCZ/?mibextid=wwXIfr REPS: https://www.facebook.com/share/197TW27jRi/?mibextid=wwXIfr About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset, where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. We're going to deal with all of that today. We have a guest who I've known for a while. I didn't know I knew him as long as I did, but yeah, but we'll get to that. His name is Walden Hughes, and he is, among other things, the person who is the driving force now behind a website yesterday USA that plays 24 hours a day old radio shows. What I didn't know until he told me once is that he happened to listen to my show back on K UCI in Irvine when I was doing the Radio Hall of Fame between 1969 and 1976 but I only learned that relatively recently, and I didn't actually meet Walden until a few years ago, when we moved down to Victorville and we we started connecting more, and I started listening more to yesterday, USA. We'll talk about some of that. But as you can tell, we're talking, once again, about radio and vintage radio programs, old radio programs from the 30s, 40s and 50s, like we did a few weeks ago with Carl Amari. We're going to have some other people on. Walden is helping us get some other people onto unstoppable mindset, like, in a few weeks, we're going to introduce and talk with Zuzu. Now, who knows who Zuzu is? I know Walden knows, but I'll bet most of you don't. Here's a clue. Whenever a bell rings, an angel gets his wingsu was the little girl on. It's a Wonderful Life. The movie played by Carol from Yeah, and she the star was Carolyn Grimes, and we've met Carolyn. Well, we'll get to all that. I've talked enough. Walden, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're   Walden Hughes ** 03:19 here. Hello, Michael boy, I mean, you, you had John Roy on years ago, and now you finally got to me that's pretty amazing.   Michael Hingson ** 03:25 Well, you know, we should have done it earlier, but that's okay, but, but you know what they say, the best is always saved for last.   Walden Hughes ** 03:34 Hey. Well, you know, considering you've been amazing with this show on Friday night for the last year. So here yesterday, USA, so we you and I definitely know our ins and outs. So this should be an easy our place talk.   Michael Hingson ** 03:47 Yes. Is this the time to tell people that Walden has the record of having 42 tootsie rolls in his mouth at once?   Walden Hughes ** 03:52 That's what they say. I think we could do more, though, you know. But yeah, yeah. Well, we won't ask, miss, yeah, we won't ask you to do that here. Why not?   Michael Hingson ** 04:03 Yeah, we want you to be able to talk. Well, I'm really glad you're here. Tell us a little about the early Walden growing up and all that.   Walden Hughes ** 04:12 I'm my mom and dad are from Nebraska, so I have a lot of Midwestern Nebraska ties. They moved out here for jobs in 65 and I was born in 1966 and I was the first baby to ever survive the world Pierre syndrome, which means I was born with a cleft palate, being extremely near sighted and and a cup and a recession. So I was the first baby through my mom and dad debt by $10,000 in 17 days, and it was a struggle for my folks. You know, in those early days, without insurance, without any. Thing like that. You know, people really didn't think about medical insurance and things like that in those days, that was not an issue. So, um, so I've always had extremely loving family. Then I went through five retina detachments, and starting when I was seven years old, up to I was nine, and I finally woke up one morning seeing white half circle so the retina detached. Sometime in the middle of the night, went to the most famous eye doctor the world at times, Dr Robert macchermer, who was the one who invented the cataract surgery and everything. Later, he wound up being the head of Duke Medical that was down in Florida, and they took one last ditch effort to save my sight, but it was a 2% chance, and it didn't work out. So they went blind in November 75 and went into school for people who may or may not know California pretty aggressive in terms of education, and so when I wear hearing aids, so I parted a hard of hearing class. Newport school. Mesa took care of the kids who were hard of hearing and the blind children went up to Garden Grove. So when I walked my site, went up to Garden Grove. And so that was my dedication. I was always a driven person. So and I also had a family that supported me everything I ever did. They didn't it just they were ultimately supporting me in education, all sorts of stuff. So I wound up in the Boy Scout Program. Wound up being an Eagle Scout like you, wound up being visual honoring the OA. And this was always side of kids. I was sort of the organizer all decided kid, and there was Walden that was right, I was that way in my entire life, which is interesting that the most kids are all hanging out. We were sighted and and even the school district, which was pretty amazing to think about it, Newport, they told my mom and dad, hey, when Wong ready to come back to his home school district, we'll cover the bill. We'll do it. And so my freshman year, after my freshman year in high school, we thought, yeah, it's time to come back. And so the Newport school, Mesa picked up the tab, and so did very well. Went up, applied to seven colleges, Harvard, a Yale Stanford turned me down, but everybody else took me   Michael Hingson ** 07:53 so, but you went to the best school anyway.   Walden Hughes ** 07:57 So I mean, either like Michael Troy went to UCI and I graduated in three years and two quarters with a degree in economics, a degree in politics, a minor in management, and then I went to work as a financial planner with American Express and then a stockbroker. I always wanted to go back get my MBA. So I got my MBA at UCI, and I graduated with my MBA in accounting and finance in 1995 so that's sort of the academic part Wow of my life.   Michael Hingson ** 08:32 How did your parents handle when it was first discovered that you were blind? So that would have been in what 75 how do they handle that?   Walden Hughes ** 08:42 They handle it really well. I think my dad was wonderful. My dad was the one that took, took me my birth, to all the doctor appointments, you know, such a traumatic thing for my mom. So my dad took that responsibility. My mom just clean house. But they, they My dad always thought if I were going to make it through life, it was going to be between my ears. It could be my brain and I, I was gifted and academically in terms of my analytical abilities are really off the chart. They tested me like in 160 and that mean I could take a very complicated scenario, break it down and give you a quick answer how to solve it within seconds. And that that that paid off. So no, I think, and they they had complete and so they put in the time.   Michael Hingson ** 09:47 What kind of work did your dad do? My dad   Walden Hughes ** 09:51 wound up being a real estate agent, okay, and so that gave him flexibility time. My mom wound up working for the Irvine camp. Attorney, which is the big agriculture at that time, now, apartments and commercial real estate here in oil County and so. So with their support and with the emphasis on education, and so they helped me great. They helped my brother a great deal. So I think in my case, having two really actively involved parents paid off, you know, in terms of, they knew where to support me and they knew the one to give me my give me my head, you know, because I would a classic example of this. After I graduated from college at UCI, I was looking for work, and mom said, my mom's saying, oh, keep go to rehab. Talk to them. They're both to help you out, give it. I really wasn't interested, so I sat down and met with them and had several interviews, and they said we're not going to fund you because either A, you're gonna be so successful on your own you pay for your own stuff, or B, you'll completely fail. So when I, and that's when they flat out, told me at rehab, so I I had more more luck in the private sector finding work than I did ever in the public sector, which was interesting.   Michael Hingson ** 11:39 I know that when I was in high school, and they it's still around today, of course, they had a program called SSI through the Department of Social Security, and then that there, there was also another program aid of the potentially self supporting blind, and we applied for those. And when I went to UC Irvine, I had met, actually, in 1964 a gentleman while I was up getting my guide dog. He was getting a guide dog. His name was Howard Mackey, and when I went to college, my parents also explored me getting some services and assistance from the Department of Rehabilitation, and I was accepted, and then Howard Mackey ended up becoming my counselor. And the neat thing about it was he was extremely supportive and really helped in finding transcribers to put physics books in braille, paid for whatever the state did it at the time, readers and other things like that that I needed provided equipment. It was really cool. He was extremely supportive, which I was very grateful for. But yeah, I can understand sometimes the rehabilitation world can be a little bit wonky. Of course, you went into it some 18 to 20 years later than that. I, in a sense, started it because I started in 6869 Yeah. And I think over time, just the state got cheaper, everything got cheaper. And of course, now it's really a lot different than it used to be, and it's a lot more challenging to get services from a lot of the agencies. And of course, in our current administration, a lot of things are being cut, and nobody knows exactly what's going to happen. And that's pretty   Walden Hughes ** 13:30 scary, actually. When I went to UCI, the school picked it up the pic, the school picked up my transcribing. They picked up my readers and all that. So interesting. How?   Michael Hingson ** 13:39 But did they let you hire your own readers and so on? Or do they do that?   Walden Hughes ** 13:43 They just put out the word, and people came up and and they paid them. So they just, they were just looking for volunteer, looking for people on the campus to do all the work. And, yeah, in fact, in fact, I had one gal who read pretty much all my years. She was waiting to get a job in the museum. And the job she wanted, you basically had to die to get it open. And so she for a full time employee with the read, can I be taking 20 units a quarter? Yeah. So I was, I was cranking it out. And in those days, everybody, you were lucky they I was lucky to get the material a week or two before midterm. Yeah, so I would speed up the tape and do a couple all nighters just to get through, because I really didn't want to delay, delay by examinations. I wanted to get it, get it through. But, uh, but, you know, but also, I guess I was going four times just throughout the quarter, set them into the summer. Okay, I wanted to get it done. Yeah, so that's, that's how I   Michael Hingson ** 14:50 did it. I didn't do summer school, but I did 16 to 20 units a quarter as well, and kept readers pretty busy and was never questioned. And even though we have some pretty hefty reader bills, but it it worked, no and and I hired my own readers, we put out the word, but I hired my own readers. And now I think that's really important. If a school pays for the readers, but lets you hire the readers, that's good, because I think that people need to learn how to hire and fire and how to learn what's necessary and how to get the things that they need. And if the agency or the school does it all and they don't learn how to do it, that's a problem.   Walden Hughes ** 15:36 If fashioning is just a sidebar issue, computer really became a big part. And with my hearing loss, TSI was really, yeah, telesensory, the one Incorporated, right? And they were upscale, everybody. It was, you know, $2,500 a pop. And for my hearing, it was the was for the card, the actual card that fits into the slot that would read, oh, okay, okay, right. And eventually they went with software with me, a lot cheaper, yes, and so, so my folks paid for that in the early days, the mid 80s, the computers and the software and a lot of that were trial and error terms of there was not any customer support from the from the computer company that were making special products like that, you were pretty much left on your own to figure it out. Yeah, and so time I went to graduate in 1990 we figured, in the business world, financial planning, I'm gonna need a whole complete setup at work, and we're gonna cost me 20 grand, yeah, and of course, when we have saying, We biking it, we're gonna finance it. What happened was, and this has helped with the scouting program. I knew the vice president of the local bank. And in those days, if it was, if it was still a small bank, he just went, he gave me a personal loan, hmm, and he, I didn't have to get any code centers or anything. No, we're gonna be the first one to finance you. You get your own computer set up. And so they, they, they financed it for me, and then also Boyle kicked in for 7500 but that was, that's how I was able to swing my first really complicated $20,000 units in 1990   Michael Hingson ** 17:33 the Braille Institute had a program. I don't know whether they still do or not they, they had a program where they would pay for, I don't know whether the top was 7500 I know they paid for half the cost of technology, but that may have been the upper limit. I know I used the program to get in when we moved, when we moved to New Jersey. I was able to get one of the, at that time, $15,000 Kurzweil Reading machines that was in 1996 and Braille Institute paid for half that. So it was pretty cool. But you mentioned TSI, which is telesensory Systems, Inc, for those who who wouldn't know that telesensory was a very innovative company that developed a lot of technologies that blind and low vision people use. For example, they developed something called the optic on which was a box that had a place where you could put a finger, and then there was attached to it a camera that you could run over a printed page, and it would display in the box a vibrating image of each character as the camera scanned across the page. It wasn't a really fast reading program. I think there were a few people who could read up to 80 words a minute, but it was still originally one of the first ways that blind people had access to print.   Walden Hughes ** 18:59 And the first guinea pig for the program. Can I just walk my site in 75 and they, they wanted me to be on there. I was really the first one that the school supply the optic on and has special training, because they knew I knew what site looked like for everybody, what Mike's describing. It was dB, the electronic waves, but it'd be in regular print letters, not, not broil waters, right? What   Michael Hingson ** 19:25 you felt were actually images of the print letters, yeah.   Walden Hughes ** 19:30 And the thing got me about it, my hand tingled after a while,   Michael Hingson ** 19:35 yeah, mine   Walden Hughes ** 19:36 to last forever,   Michael Hingson ** 19:38 you know. So it was, it wasn't something that you could use for incredibly long periods of time. Again, I think a few people could. But basically, print letters are made to be seen, not felt, and so that also limited the speed. Of course, technology is a whole lot different today, and the optic on has has faded away. And as Walden said, the card that would. Used to plug into computer slots that would verbalize whatever came across the screen has now given way to software and a whole lot more that makes it a lot more usable. But still, there's a lot of advances to be made. But yeah, we we both well, and another thing that TSI did was they made probably the first real talking calculator, the view, plus, remember   Walden Hughes ** 20:25 that? Yep, I know a good sound quality.   Michael Hingson ** 20:28 Though it was good sound quality. It was $395 and it was really a four function calculator. It wasn't scientific or anything like that, but it still was the first calculator that gave us an opportunity to have something that would at least at a simple level, compete with what sighted people did. And yes, you could plug your phone so they couldn't so sighted people, if you were taking a test, couldn't hear what what the calculator was saying. But at that time, calculators weren't really allowed in the classroom anyway, so   Walden Hughes ** 21:00 my downside was, time I bought the equipment was during the DOS mode, and just like that, window came over, and that pretty much made all my equipment obsolete, yeah, fairly quickly, because I love my boil display. That was terrific for for when you learn with computers. If you're blind, you didn't really get a feel what the screen looked like everybody. And with a Braille display, which mine was half the screen underneath my keyboard, I could get a visual feel how things laid out on the computer. It was easier for me to communicate with somebody. I knew what they were talking   Michael Hingson ** 21:42 about, yeah. And of course, it's gotten so much better over time. But yeah, I remember good old MS DOS. I still love to play some of the old MS DOS games, like adventure and all that, though, and Zork and some of those fun games.   Walden Hughes ** 21:57 But my understanding dos is still there. It's just windows on top of it, basically,   Michael Hingson ** 22:02 if you open a command prompt in Windows that actually takes you to dos. So dos is still there. It is attached to the whole system. And sometimes you can go in and enter commands through dos to get things done a little bit easier than you might be able to with the normal graphic user interface, right? Well, so you, you got your master's degree in 1995 and so you then continue to work in the financial world, or what did   Walden Hughes ** 22:35 it for 10 years, but five years earlier? Well, maybe I should back it up this way. After I lost my site in 1976 I really gravitated to the radio, and my generation fell in love with talk radio, so I and we were really blessed here in the LA market with really terrific hosts at KBC, and it wasn't all the same thing over and over and beating the drum. And so listening to Ray Breen, Michael Jackson, IRA for still kill Hemingway, that was a great opportunity for somebody who was 10 years old.   Michael Hingson ** 23:18 Really, they were all different shows. And yes, I remember once we were listening to, I think it was Michael Jackson. It was on Sunday night, and we heard this guy talking about submarines, and it just attracted Karen's and my attention. And it turns out what it was was Tom Clancy talking about Hunt for Red October. Wow. And that's where we first heard about it, and then went and found the book.   Walden Hughes ** 23:45 But So I grew up in the talk radio, and then that, and I fell in love with country music at the time on koec, and then Jim Healy and sports, yep, and then, and then we were blessed in the LA market have a lot of old time radio played, and it was host like Mike was here at K UCI, John Roy, eventually over KPCC, Bob line. And so my relatives said you should listen to this marathon KPFK, which was a Pacific did an all day marathon. I fell in love with that. Jay Lacher, then one night, after I walked my site, I tuned in. Ray bream took the night off, and Bill balance had frankly sit in. And the first thing they played was Jack Armstrong, and this is where Jack, Jack and Billy get caught up in a snow storm and a bone down the hill. And Brett Morrison came in during the one o'clock two o'clock hour to talk about the shadow. And so my dad took me to, oh, I'm trying to think of the name of the record. Or if they gave away licorice, licorice at the at the record store tower, yeah, not Tower Records. Um, anyway, so we bought two eight track tapes in 1976 the shadow and Superman, and I started my long life of collecting and so. So here we up to 1990 after collecting for 15 years. Going to spill back conventional meetings. I knew Ray bream was going to have kitty Cowan at the guest. Kitty Cowan was a big band singer of the 40s who later the fifth little things mean a lot. And I figured nobody was going to act about her days on the Danny Kaye radio show. And so I called in. They realized I had the stuff. I had the radio shows, they took me off the air, and Kitty's husband, but grand off called me the next day, and we struck up a friendship. And so they were really connected in Hollywood, and so they opened so many doors for me. Mike I Katie's best friend with Nancy Lacher, SR bud with the one of the most powerful agents in town, the game show hosting, who could come up with a TV ideas, but did not know how to run a organization. So that was Chuck Paris, hmm, and Gong Show, yeah, so I wound up, they wound up giving me, hire me to find the old TV shows, the music, all that stuff around the country. And so I started to do that for the Sinatra family, everybody else. So I would, while we do the financial planning, my internet consulting thing really took off. So that wound up being more fun and trying to sell disability insurance, yeah. So one wound up doing that until the internet took over. So that would that. So my whole life would really reshape through kitty Carolyn and Ben granoff through that. So I really connected in the Hollywood industry from that point on, starting 1990 so that that really opened up, that really sure reshaped my entire life, just because of that   Michael Hingson ** 27:28 and you've done over the years, one of the other things that you started to do was to interview a lot of these people, a lot of the radio stars, The radio actors   Walden Hughes ** 27:39 and music and TV, music,   Michael Hingson ** 27:44 yeah.   Walden Hughes ** 27:45 And I think when Bill Bragg asked me to interview kitty Carol, and I did that in 2000 and Bill said, Well, could you do more? And so one of Kitty friends, but test Russell. Test was Gene Autry Girl Friday. He she ran kmpc for him. And I think everybody in the music industry owed her a favor. I mean, I had Joe Stafford to Pat Boone to everybody you could think of from the from that big band, 3040s, and 60s on the show. Let's go   Michael Hingson ** 28:24 back. Let's go back. Tell us about Bill Bragg.   Walden Hughes ** 28:29 Bill Bragg was an interesting character all by himself. Born in 1946 he was a TV camera man for CBS in Dallas. He was also a local music jockey, nothing, nothing, big, big claims of fame boys working for channel two. And then he in Dallas, he was at a press conference with LBJ, and LBJ got done speaking, and the camera crew decided that they were going to pack up and go to lunch. And Bill thought it'd be fun to mark what camera, what microphone the President used for his address, and the guys were in a rush door in the box, let's go have lunch. So Bill lost track, and that bothered him. So he started the largest communication Museum in 1979 and he collected and was donated. And so he had the biggest museum. He had a film exchanger. So in those early days of cable TVs, you know, we had a lot of TV stations specializing in programming, and there were channels, I think this was called a nostalgic channel, wanted to run old TV shows and films. They had the film, but they didn't. Have the equipment. And they got hold of Bill. He said, Okay, I'll do it for you. But what you're going to give me is games. Bill was a wheel and dealer, yeah. And Charlie said, We'll give you your own satellite channel. And I was talking to Bill friend later, John women in those days, in the 1983 when Bill got it, the value of those satellite channels was a million dollars a year, and he got it for free. And Bill would try and figure out, What in the world I'm going to do with this, and that's when he decided to start playing with old time radio, because really nobody was playing that on a national basis. You had different people playing it on a local basis, but not really on a national basis. So Bill was sort of the first one before I play old time radio. I became aware of him because of bur back, so I was trying to get the service on my cable TV company. Was unsuccessful.   Michael Hingson ** 30:58 So what he did is he broadcast through the satellite channel, and then different television stations or companies could if they chose to pick up the feed and broadcast it. Did, they broadcast it on a TV channel or   Walden Hughes ** 31:13 on radio public asset channel. Okay, so remember note day a lot of public it would have the bulletin boards with the local news of right community, and lot of them would play Bill can't   Michael Hingson ** 31:28 play Bill's channel because the only because what they were doing was showing everything on the screen, which didn't help us. But right they would show things on the screen, and they would play music or something in the background. So Bill's programs were a natural thing to play,   Walden Hughes ** 31:44 yeah, and so Bill wound up on a stout then he wound up being the audio shop Troyer for WGN, which was a nice break and so. And then Bill got it to be played in 2000 nursing homes and hospitals, and then local AMFM stations would pick us up. They were looking for overnight programming, so local throughout the country would pick it up. And so Bill, Bill was a go getter. He was a great engineer, and knew how to build things on the cheap. He was not a businessman, you know, he couldn't take it to the next level, but, but at least he was able to come up with a way to run a station, 24 hours a day. It was all the tapes were sent down to Nash, down to Tennessee, to be uploaded to play into the system. Eventually, he built a studio and everything in Dallas. And so,   Michael Hingson ** 32:38 of course, what what Weldon is saying is that that everything was on tape, whether it was cassette or reel to reel, well, reel to reel, and they would play the tapes through a tape machine, a player or recorder, and put it out on the satellite channels, which was how they had to do it. And that's how we did it at kuci, we had tape, and I would record on Sunday nights, all the shows that we were going to play on a given night on a reel of tape. We would take it in and we would play it.   Walden Hughes ** 33:13 And so that's how it's done in the 80s. Eventually built bill, built a studio, and then started to do a live show once a week. Eventually, they grew up to four days a week. And so here is about 1999 or so, and they were playing Musa from kitty cat, and did not know who she was. I would quickly, I would quickly give a couple background from AIM hang up. I didn't really they had no idea who I was yet. I didn't talk about what I would do and things like that. I was just supplying information. And eventually, after two years, they asked me to bring kitty on the show, which I did, and then I started to book guests on a regular basis for them, and then eventually, the guy who I enjoyed all time radio shows listening to Frank Percy 1976 built decided that I should be his producer, and so I wound up producing the Friday Night Live show with Frankie, and eventually we got it up and running, 2002 So Frank and I did it together for 16 years and so that so Bill built a studio in Texas, mailed it all to my House. My dad didn't have any engineering ability. So he and my bill got on the phone and built me a whole studio in six hours, and I was up and running with my own studio here in my bedroom, in 2002 and so overhead, I'm in my bedroom ever since Michael, you know, there you go.   Michael Hingson ** 34:58 Well and to tell people about. Frank Bresee Frank, probably the biggest claim to fame is that he had a program called the golden days of radio, and it was mainly something that was aired in the Armed Forces Radio and Television Service on the radio, where he would every show play excerpts of different radio programs and so on. And one of the neat things that's fascinating for Frank was that because he was doing so much with armed forces, and doing that, he had access to all of the libraries around the world that the Armed Forces Radio and Television Service had, so he could go in and oftentimes get shows and get things that no one else really had because they were only available in at least initially, in these military libraries. But he would put them on the air, and did a great job with it for many, many years. Yeah, Frank   Walden Hughes ** 35:53 was an interesting character, a pure entrepreneur. He invented a game called pass out, which was a drinking game, board game, and he for 20 years, he spent six months in Europe, six months in United States. And he was making so much money in Europe, he would rent out castles and lived in them, and he would and he would spend months at a time in Germany, which was the main headquarter of art, and just sit there in the archives and make copies of things he wanted to play on his show, yeah. And so that's how he built that. And then he he started collecting transcriptions when he would to 10 he was a radio actor, and so he had one of the largest collection, collection, and he his house, his family house was in Hancock Park, which was the, it was Beverly Hills before Beverly Hills, basically, what did he play on radio? Well, when he was, he was he was deceptive. He was the backup little beaver. When someone Tommy, writer, yeah, when, when Tommy Cook had another project, it was Frank be was a substitute. And so that was a short coin of fame. He did bit parts on other shows, but, but that's what he did as a kid. Eventually, I think Frank came from a very wealthy family. He wound up owning the first radio station when he was 19 years old on Catalina Island in 1949 and then he wound up being a record producer. He worked with Walter Winchell, created albums on without about Al Jolson worked on Eddie Cantor and Jimmy Durante and anyway, Frank, Frank had a career with game with creating board games, doing radio and having an advertising company. Frank was responsible for giving all the game shows, the prices for TV and the way he would do it, he would call an advertise, he would call a company. He said, you want your product. Beyond on this section, go to say, yes, okay, give us, give us the product, and give me 150 bucks. And so Frank would keep the cash, and he would give the project to the TV shows,   Michael Hingson ** 38:17 Dicker and Dicker of Beverly Hills. I remember that on so many shows   Walden Hughes ** 38:23 so So Frank was a wheeling dealer, and he loved radio. That was his passion project. He probably made less money doing that, but he just loved doing it, and he was just hit his second house. The family house was 8400 square feet, and so it was pretty much a storage unit for Frank hobbies, right? And we and he had 30,000 transcriptions in one time. But when he was Europe, he had a couple of floods, so he lost about 10 to 20,000 of them. Okay? Folks did not know how to keep them dry, but he had his professional studio built. And so I would book guests. I arranged for art link writer to come over, and other people, Catherine Crosby, to come over, and Frank would do the interviews. And so I was a big job for me to keep the Friday night show going and get Frankie's guess boy shows. I would have been. He died,   Michael Hingson ** 39:22 and he was a really good interviewer. Yeah, I remember especially he did an interview that we in, that you played on yesterday USA. And I was listening to it with Mel Blanc, which is, which is very fascinating. But he was a great interviewer. I think it was 1969 that he started the golden days of radio, starting 49 actually, or 49 not 69 Yeah, 49 that was directly local, on,   Walden Hughes ** 39:49 on Carolina, and K, I, G, l, which was a station I think heard out in the valley, pretty much, yeah, we could pick it up. And then, and then he started with on. Forces around 65   Michael Hingson ** 40:02 that's what I was thinking of. I thought it was 69 but,   Walden Hughes ** 40:06 and well, he was, on those days there were armed forces Europe picked them up. And also, there was also the international Armed Forces served around the far eastern network, right? Yeah. And so by 67 he was pretty much full on 400 stations throughout the whole world. And I that's probably how you guys picked him up, you know, through that capability.   Michael Hingson ** 40:30 Well, that's where I first heard of him and and the only thing for me was I like to hear whole shows, and he played excerpts so much that was a little frustrating. But he was such a neat guy, you couldn't help but love all the history that he brought to it   Walden Hughes ** 40:46 and and then he would produce live Christmas shows with with the radio. He would interview the guest he, you know, so he had access to people that nobody generally had, you know. He worked for Bob Hope, right? So he was able to get to Jack Benny and Bing Crosby and yes, people like that, Groucho Marx. So he was, he had connections that were beyond the average Old Time Radio buff. He was truly a great guy to help the hobby out, and loved radio very much.   Michael Hingson ** 41:21 Well, going back to Bill Bragg a little bit, so he had the satellite channel, and then, of course, we got the internet, which opened so many things for for Frank or Frank for, well, for everybody but for Bill. And he started the program yesterday, usa.net, on the radio through the internet,   Walden Hughes ** 41:44 which he was the first one in 1996 right? There's a great story about that. There was a company called broadcast.com I bet you remember that company, Mike. Anyway, it was founded by a guy who loved college basketball, and he was a big Hoosier fan, and he was living in Texas, and so he would generally call long distance to his buddy, and they would put up the radio. He could went to the basketball games. And eventually he decided, well, maybe I could come up and stream it on my computer, and all these equipment breaking down, eventually he came up with the idea of, well, if I had a satellite dish, I could pick up the feed and put and stream it on the computer, that way people could hear it right. And he hired bill to do that, and he offered bill a full time job installing satellites and working Bill turned them down, and the guy wound up being Mark Cuban. Yeah, and Mark Cuban gave every every employee, when he sold broadcast.com to Yahoo, a million dollar bonus. So Bill missed out on that, but, but in exchange, Mike Cuban gave him broadcast.com While USA channel for free. So Bill never had to pay in the early days, until about 2002 so when Yahoo decided to get out of the streaming business for a while, then that's when we had to find and we found life 365 eventually, and we were paying pretty good. We're paying a really good rate with like 265 Bill was used to paying free, and we were paying, I think, under $100 and I knew guys later a couple years, were paying over $500 a month. And we were, we were, but there was such a willing deal able to get those things for really dope less   Michael Hingson ** 43:45 money, yeah. Now I remember being in New Jersey and I started hearing ads for an internet radio station. This was in the very late 90s, maybe even into 2000 W, A, B, y. It was a company, a show that a station that played a lot of old songs from the 50s and 60s and so on. And it was, it was, if you tuned on to it, you could listen. And after four or five hours, things would start to repeat, and then eventually it disappeared. But I started looking around, and I don't even remember how I found it, but one day I heard about this radio station, www, dot yesterday, usa.net. Right, yep.net.com,   Walden Hughes ** 44:31 yep, and yeah. And   Michael Hingson ** 44:33 I said, Well, oh, I think I actually heard an ad for it on W, A, B, y, when it was still around. Anyway, I went to it, and they were playing old radio shows, and they had a number of people who would come on and play shows. Everyone had an hour and a half show, and every two weeks you would have to send in a new show. But they. They played old radio shows, 24 hours a day and seven days a week, except they also had some live talk shows. And I remember listening one day and heard Bill Bragg talking about the fact that he was going to have his standard Friday night show with Walden Hughes, it would start at nine o'clock. I had no idea who Walden was at the time. And the problem is, nine o'clock was on the in Pacific Time, and it was, I think, Midnight in New Jersey time, as I recall the way it went anyway, it was way too late for me to be up. And so I never did hear Walden on yesterday USA, or I may have actually listened. Just stayed up to listen to one and fell asleep, but the show, the whole innovative process of playing radio all the time on the internet, was intriguing and just opened so many opportunities, I think. And of course, the internet brought all that around. And now there are any number of stations that stream all the time. And Bill Bragg passed away. What in 2016   Walden Hughes ** 46:15 2018   Michael Hingson ** 46:18 1819 2019 Yeah. And Walden now is the person who directs, operates, and is the manager of yesterday USA. And so when I go ahead,   Walden Hughes ** 46:30 it's fascinating. In the height of the station, there was 15,000 internet radio stations out there in 2000 they did a survey yesterday, USA was number three in the world, behind the BBC and CNN, which I thought was a pretty nice number to be concerned. We had no budget to promote, right? And the last time I saw the numbers been a couple years, we were number 44 in the world, which I don't think of, 15,000 radio stations. Not bad. No, not at all. You know, really not bad. But now there is more talk than there used to be, because Walden and the gasmans, who we had on years ago on this podcast, but   Michael Hingson ** 47:16 have interviewed a lot of people, and continue to interview people. And of course, so many people are passing on that. We're trying to talk to people as much as we can, as they can, and all of us now, because I've started to come a little bit and become a little bit involved in yesterday USA. And as Walden said on Friday night at 730 Pacific Time, see it's earlier, we we do a talk show. Bob Lyons, who did a lot of radio out here, and for 50 years, had a program called Don't touch that dial. And John and Larry and Walden and I get on the air and we talk about, Gosh, any number of different things. We've talked about Braille, we've talked about sometimes, everything but radio. But we talk about a lot of different things, which is, which is a lot of fun.   Walden Hughes ** 48:04 And I think it probably is, you know, in the old days, it would pretty much no entertainment, and Bill telling some stories and things like that. But with me, I always had a focus in interviews, but it's so much more fun to do radio as a co host. And that's when Patricia and I connected back in the 2007 I knew was in 2005 she's my co host. And Patricia didn't grow up with whole town radio. She became a fan after she found yesterday, USA into 2000 but she's a very articulate person, and so through the shows, what she and I did on Saturday night, the audience grab it and just we should talk about everything, and I just generate calls. I mean, when she and I were doing eight hours a night, we would average about 18 calls a night, which was pretty amazing, but we would cover the gamut, and I think a really good talk show host had to know a little bit about a lot of things. Yes, he got it. You got to be flexible. And Patricia and I compliment each other that way, that we're able to cover history and politics and music and just everything. And so when I do a show with her, you never know what direction we go with where. When I'm with John Roy, it's more radio centric. So it depends on what night a week people tune in, is what you're going to   Michael Hingson ** 49:40 get. And Walden has Patricia on now Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays, but we know why she's really on there, because she likes hearing Perry Como song Patricia that starts out every show Walden plays that he's in love with Patricia. One of these days, there's still the possibility. But anyway, we. We, he, we love it when he, he has Patricia on, and it's every week. So, so it is really cool. And they do, they talk about everything under the sun, which is so fascinating. Tell us about Johnny and Helen Holmes.   Walden Hughes ** 50:15 Ah, well, it's an interesting story. I I say the second biggest old time radio station in the country, after yesterday USA. It's about half the size in terms of audience basis. Radio once more, and you can find them at Radio once more.com and they do a good job. No else with probably yesterday USA branch offers own internet radio station, and he found he would go to the east coast to the nostalgic convention, and he connected with Johnny and Helen. Holmes and Johnny and Helen are people who love to attend nostalgic convention and get autographs and things. And they became really friends. So Neil convinced them, why don't you come on? Just come on radio once more. And so after a while, they do the presentation the coffee shop. Neil convinced them to take it, take it to the air, and they started to have their own show, and I was aware of them, and I produced the spirback convention, 2017 in Las Vegas. So Johnny helm came to the convention, and Johnny wanted to say hi to me. I said, I know who you are. I think he was for by that that I knew who he was, but I invited Johnny and Helen to come on with Patricia and I one night to talk about their coffee shop presentation and their show on Radio once more. And we just bonded very quickly and easy to bond with Johnny. They really are really fabulous people. He's really a generous guy, and so over the last six, seven years, we have developed a great friendship on you, and almost have created a whole subculture by itself, playing trivia with them. Every time they come on,   Michael Hingson ** 52:17 they do a lot of trivia stuff, and Johnny produces it very well. He really does a great job. And he'll put sound bites and clips and music, and it's gotten me such a major production with Johnny and Helen. And people look forward to it. I sometimes count the interaction people hanging out in the chat room, on the phone, email, about 18 to 20 people will get and get an answer question, was it amazing that that many people will be interested in trivia like that? But and, and Johnny also collects, well, I guess in Helen collect a lot of old television shows as well. Yep. So we won't hold it against him too much, but, but he does television and, well, I like old TV shows too, you bet. Well, so you know, you are, obviously, are doing a lot of different things. You mentioned spurred vac oop. They're after you. We'll wait. We'll wait till the phone die. You mentioned, well, I'll just ask this while that's going on. You mentioned spurred back. Tell us a little bit about what spurred vac is and what they've been doing and what they bring to radio.   Walden Hughes ** 53:23 Sprint vac started in 1974 it's the largest full time radio group in the country, called the society to preserve and encourage radio drama, variety and comedy. John Roy Gasman were two of the main driving force behind the club. It reached up to a membership of 1800 people, and they've honored over 500 people who worked in the golden days of radio and to speak at their meeting, come to the special conventions. And so I attended some dinners at the Brown Derby, which was a great thrill. I started attending their conventions, and it was just, it was wonderful. So I so I really got to meet a lot of the old time radio personality and become friends with Janet Waldo and June for a and people like that. And so I eventually got on the board. I eventually became one young, somewhat retired. I wound up being the activity person to book guests, and started producing conventions. And so that became a major part of my life, just producing those things for spur back and in other places, and I first started to do that for reps. Was it the Old Time Radio Group in Seattle in 2007 so they were actually the first convention I produced.   Michael Hingson ** 54:54 And rep says radio enthusiasts of Puget Sound,   Walden Hughes ** 54:57 right? Reps online.org, G and so I would produce new convention. I was helping super vac, and I also helping the Friends of all time radio back in New Jersey and so. And it probably helped my contact, which is 300 pages long, so, and I would book it. I would also contact celebrities via the mail, and my batting average was 20% which I thought were pretty good. I got Margaret. I got Margaret Truman. She called me, said, Walden, I got your order, and I forgot that I did the show with Jimmy Stewart. I'd be happy to come on talk about my memory. You know, she talked about Fred Allen on the big show, and how, how Mike Wallace had a temper, had a temper. She was a co host. Was among weekdays, which with the weekday version of monitor. Monitor was weekend and weekday, we see NBC. And so she was just fabulous, you know, so and I would get people like that 20% bad average, which was incredible. So I met, that's how it's up to two, my guess was, so I, I was sort of go to guy, find celebrities and booking them and and so in that help yesterday, USA helped the different conventions. And so it and so you're so you're booking the panels, and then you're coming up with ideas for radio recreations. And so I produce 37 of them, ranging from one day to four days. And I get counted, over the last 18 years, I've produced 226 audio theater plays with it. A lot at least, have an idea of how those things   Michael Hingson ** 56:55 work. So right now, speaking of recreations, and we're both involved in radio enthusiasts of Puget Sound, and for the last couple of years, I've participated in this. Walden has done radio recreations, and twice a year up in the Washington State area, where we bring in both some some amateurs and some professionals like Carolyn Grimes Zuzu and so many others who come in and we actually recreate old radio shows, both before a live audience, and we broadcast them on yesterday USA and other people like Margaret O'Brien who won   Walden Hughes ** 57:46 Gigi Powell coming this year. Phil Proctor. David Osmond from fire sign theater. Chuck Dougherty from Sergeant Preston. John Provo from Timmy from Lassie, Bill Johnson, who does a one man show on Bob Hope. Bill Ratner from GI Joe. Bill Owen, the who might have had he is the author of The Big broadcast, Ivan Troy who Bobby Benson, Tommy cook from the life O'Reilly Gigi parole, a movie actress of the 50s, as you mentioned, Carolyn grime, Beverly Washburn and others, and it's just the radio folks are really down to earth, really nice people, and you get to break bread with them, talk to them and reminisce about what was it like doing that radio show, this movie, or that TV show, and then They still got it, and they can perform on stage,   Michael Hingson ** 58:43 and they love to talk about it, and they love to interact with people who treat them as people. And so yeah, it is a lot of fun to be able to do it. In fact, I was on Carolyn Grimes podcast, which will be coming out at some point in the next little while, and Carolyn is going to be on unstoppable mindset. So keep an eye out for that. Bill Owens program is coming out soon. Bill and I did a conversation for unstoppable mindset, and we're going to be doing Bill Johnson will be coming on, and other people will be coming on. Walden has been very helpful at finding some of these folks who are willing to come on and talk about what they did, and to help us celebrate this medium that is just as much a part of history as anything in America and is just as worth listening to as it ever was. There is more to life than television, no matter what they think.   Walden Hughes ** 59:40 And also, we do a Christmas thing too. And hopefully Mike, if his speaking engagement allow him, will be with us up at Christmas saying, Well, I will. I'm planning on it. We're gonna do, It's a Wonderful Life. Keith Scott, coming over from Australia, who's a he's the rich little of Australia. And we'll do, It's a Wonderful Life. We'll do. The Christmas Carol, milk on 34th Street film again, Molly Jack Benny will have a great time.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:07 These are all going to be recreations using the the original scripts from the shows, and that's what makes them fun. And for those of us who don't read print, we do have our scripts in Braille, absolutely so that's kind of fun. Well, Walden, this has been absolutely wonderful. We're going to have to do it some more. Maybe we need to get you, John and Larry all together on that. That might be kind of fun. But I really, I don't think we need a host if you that. No, no, we just, you know, just go on. But this has been really fun. I really enjoy it. If people want to reach out to you, how do they do that?   Walden Hughes ** 1:00:45 Oh, I think they can call my studio number 714-545-2071, I'm in California, or they can email me at Walden shoes at yesterday, usa.com, W, A, l, D, E, N, H, U, C, H, E, S at, y, E, S T, E, R, D, A, y, u, s a.com, I'm the president of radio enthusiast sound, that's reps online.org or on the board of Sper back, which is S, P, E, R, D, V, A, c.com, so while waiting shakes me down, when   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:25 will the showcase actually occur up in Bellevue in Washington?   Walden Hughes ** 1:01:30 That will be September 18, 19 20/21, and then our Christmas one is will be Friday, December five, and Saturday, December the sixth. And then we're also going back and spir back, and I bet we'll see you there. We're going to go back to the Troy Blossom Festival next April, 23 to 26 and we'll know, are we set up to do that now? Yep, looks like that gonna happen? Yeah? Oh, good, yeah. So kick out the phone with Nicholas here a few days ago. So everything's gonna go for that, so that will be good.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:03 Yeah, we will do that. That's cool. Well, thank you for being here, and I want to thank you all for listening. I hope you had fun. This is a little different than a lot of the episodes that we've done, but it's, I think, important and enlightening to hear about this medium into to meet people from it. So thank you for listening wherever you are. We hope that you'll give us a five star review of unstoppable mindset wherever you're listening or watching. Please do that. We'd love to hear from you. You can reach me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and you can also go to our podcast page if you don't find podcasts any other way. Michael hingson.com/podcast, that's m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, n.com/podcast, singular. So thanks again for being here and for listening to the show, and Walden, once again, I want to thank you for being here. This has been great.   Walden Hughes ** 1:03:01 Thank you, Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:07 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Anthony says that he did experience abuse and trauma as a youth, but he persevered and came out of his youth a better person for the experiences. He never finished formal college, but he said that the university of life taught him so much more than he could have ever learned through more traditional schooling.   Anthony has had over 3 and a half decades serving as a business consultant, executive coach, and human optimizer, Coach Cudjo has cracked the code on optimizing your body, health, wealth, and life. Coach Cudjo unashamedly tells us of his growing relationship with God that began with a pastor of a new church knocking on his door one day when Anthony was about to commit suicide. The knock on the door stayed his hand.   Today Mr. Cudjo is not only a business consultant and coach, but he also is a pastor himself. My conversation with Anthony is far ranging and covers subjects including his current activities, our personal relationships with God and how Anthony brings all that together through is human optimization system called H3O. He even offers you a free gift of a phone call with him to show you how you can better yourself, your mind, and your spirit connection. Take Anthony up on his offer. You might be quite pleasantly surprised at what happens.     About the Guest:   Founder and Head Coach at Human Optimization 3.0 (H3O), Anthony Cudjo (AKA “Coach Cudjo”), is the leading expert in performance by optimizing various aspects of life, including physical, mental, and emotional health. He has been coined the Teacher of Teachers and the Leader of Leaders! With over three and a half decades as a business consultant, executive coach, and human optimizer, Coach Cudjo has cracked the code on optimizing your body, health, wealth, and life. He will teach you how to tap into and maximize the creative forces of your DNA.   Anthony transforms the lives of individuals and entire communities by teaching the daily mechanics of mastering their physical existence through the synergistic harmonization of spirit, mind, and body. He educates, motivates, and empowers individuals to reconnect with and reactivate their Divine Intelligence (DNA) and harmonize the three power centers that govern our decisions, actions, and external manifestations. He got here by questioning the abuse, doubt, fear, anxiety, and anger in his own life. These feelings and experiences became the bricks of the foundation of his Power-Full new life. Tony is a graduate of the Dale Carnegie School of Leadership and Development and the Landmark Forum. He is an Advanced NLP Practitioner, certified personal trainer, life coach, nutritionist, and metabolic specialist with a background as a professional athlete in boxing, powerlifting, and bodybuilding. As a TV and radio personality, Tony has hosted the "FitnessRx Show" on ESPN Radio, sharing health and wellness insights with a broad audience. 37 years and thousands of clients later, he has cracked the code to Human Optimization, which is H30!   Ways to connect with Anthony:   Website: https://urh3o.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthony-cudjo-a2928567/ Facebook: Facebook.com/Humanoptimization3.0 Instagram: Instagram.com/Humanoptimization3.0 Youtube: Youtube.com/@Humanoptimization3.0     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:

Project 2025 has emerged as one of the most ambitious and controversial blueprints for American governance in recent memory. Initiated by the Heritage Foundation and backed by a coalition of over 100 conservative organizations, the project's stated mission is to radically restructure the federal government and centralize executive power, promising what supporters call a return to accountability and efficiency. Critics, meanwhile, warn of its sweeping threats to democratic norms, federal checks and balances, and the livelihoods of millions.Unveiled in the form of a 900-page manifesto titled “Mandate for Leadership,” Project 2025 provides granular directions, agency by agency, for an incoming administration determined to overhaul how Washington operates. According to the Heritage Foundation, the “heart of the project” is dismantling what they label as an unaccountable bureaucracy that has “drifted too far from the people's will.” Kevin Roberts, Heritage's president, bluntly declared, “All federal employees should answer to the president.” This vision is animated by an expansive concept known as the unitary executive theory, essentially arguing that the president should have direct control over all executive branch agencies, shedding their current independence.For listeners wondering about concrete changes, consider the plan for the Department of State. Project 2025 advocates for the wholesale removal of agency leadership officials before Inauguration Day, replacing them with individuals hand-picked for strict ideological alignment. Kiron Skinner, who penned the State Department chapter, envisioned a department led exclusively by loyalists, aiming to “remove those not aligned with the president's priorities.” This move is designed not just to hasten the implementation of foreign policy goals, but to prevent bureaucratic resistance—a key grievance among the plan's authors.Just as striking is Project 2025's approach to the federal workforce. Its architects call for the resurrection and expansion of “Schedule F,” a controversial employment status for federal employees. Schedule F would classify hundreds of thousands—if not more—career civil servants as political appointees, stripping them of longstanding job protections. The stated goal is a government “purged of entrenched opposition” so that “key decisions reflect the president's will on day one.” Critics like the National Federation of Federal Employees describe this as a “scheme to purge career professionals,” warning it would turn public administration into a partisan machine vulnerable to corruption.The plan doesn't stop at restructuring government jobs. Project 2025 lays out a 180-day playbook, which includes ready-to-sign executive orders to immediately strip environmental regulations, curb civil rights protections, and overhaul social welfare programs. According to the Center for Progressive Reform, executive actions under this strategy have already targeted the rollback of climate rules, weakened worker safety standards, and eliminated agencies altogether. The swift elimination of the Consumer Financial Protection Board and US Agency for International Development, as documented by Government Executive, was meant to signal a new era of “government efficiency” but resulted in “widespread layoffs and institutional chaos.”Project 2025's policy ambitions also extend to social issues. In its blueprint, it calls for curtailing access to abortion, undoing LGBTQ protections, and limiting federal action on racial equity. The ACLU describes these proposals as “an unprecedented rollback of civil rights and liberties,” comparing their scope to a rewriting of American society's basic fabric.Proponents lay claim to a mandate from voters frustrated by government gridlock and what they see as bureaucratic overreach. Opponents counter that this is not reform but a consolidation of power. Legal experts from across the spectrum worry that such an agenda could collapse the traditional American barrier between politics and administration, risking both the appearance and the reality of authoritarian rule.Several milestones now lie ahead. With ongoing lawsuits from labor unions and scrutiny by watchdog groups, the coming months promise court battles and congressional hearings over Project 2025's legality and impact. Congressional Republicans and administration officials are preparing for rapid implementation, while a coalition of civil rights organizations and some lawmakers are vowing organized resistance.The stakes for American governance have rarely been higher. Whether Project 2025 becomes a historical footnote or a defining blueprint for the future will depend on political will, legal battles, and the choices made in the next critical year.Thanks for tuning in to this week's deep dive. Come back next week for more.Some great Deals https://amzn.to/49SJ3QsFor more check out http://www.quietplease.ai

Welcome back to The Pregame!In this Mailbag Episode , we dig into your emails and break down real-life situations from the field:⚾ Connor – Ejection report and what could make it stronger

Our guest this time is Kay Thompson. As Kay says in her bio, she is a minister, TV show host, author, Realtor® and business owner. If that isn't enough, she has raised a son and a daughter. Kay grew up, as she says, a military brat. She has lived in a number of places around the world. Like others we have had the pleasure to have as guests, her travels and living in various places and countries has made her curious and given her a broad perspective of life.   After high school she went to college. This life was a bit of a struggle for her, but the day came when she realized that college would be a positive thing for her. She will tell us the story.   After college she and her second husband, her first one died, moved to Atlanta where she has now resided for over 30 years. Kay always has had a strong faith. However, the time came when, as she explains, she actually heard God calling her to go into the ministry. And so, she did.   Kay tells us about how she also has undertaken other endeavors including writing, selling real estate and working as a successful Television host. It goes without saying that Kay Thompson performs daily a number of tasks and has several jobs she accomplishes. I hope you will be inspired by Kays's work. Should you wish to contact Kay, visit her website www.kaythompson.org.     About the Guest:   Kay Thompson is a minister, TV show host, author, Realtor® and business owner. She is the founder of Kay Thompson Ministries International, a kingdom resource for healing, hope and spiritual development. Kay is also the founder of Legacy Venture Group, a consulting and media firm which has helped countless businesses, organizations and individuals to strategically maximize potential. Kay holds a BA in Art History from Rutgers University in Camden, NJ, and an MA in Christian Ministry from Mercer University in Atlanta, GA. She is the former program director of WGUN 1010 in Atlanta and hosted the Kay Thompson TV Show, which aired on WATC-TV 57 in Atlanta. She currently hosts for the Atlanta Live broadcast on TV- 57. Kay is a member of the staff for the Studio Community Fellowship at Trillith Studios in Fayetteville, and is a host for their weekly service. She also serves as a member of the Board of Advisors for the A.D. King Foundation and works with several other non­ profit organizations in the Metro Atlanta area. Kay has lived in Georgia for over thirty years and is a resident of Stockbridge. She has two wonderful children: Anthony (Jasmine) and Chanel; and one grandchild, AJ. Kay enjoys reading, bowling and spending time with her family.   Ways to connect with Kay:   Facebook (Kay Thompson Ministries) https://www.facebook.com/kaythompsonministries Instagram (@kayrthompson) https://www.instagram.com/kayrthompson/     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:17 Hi, everyone. I would like to say greetings wherever you happen to be today, we have a wonderful guest today. This is a woman, I would say, of many, many talents. I've been looking forward to this for a while. Kay Thompson is a minister, a TV host. She's an author, she's a realtor, and she's a business owner. My gosh, all of those. I want to find out how she does all those. But anyway, Kay, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad that you're here.   Kay Thompson ** 01:54 Well, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate being here, and thank you for contacting me excited.   Michael Hingson ** 02:01 Well, how do you do all those things all at once?   Kay Thompson ** 02:05 Well, you know, definitely can't do them all at once. Oh, okay, well, so have to kind of parse them out each day. And as I get assignments, that's how it goes. And got to prioritize one over the other. You   Michael Hingson ** 02:22 know? Well, we will, we will get to all of those, I am sure, in the course of the next hour or so. But I'm really glad that you're here, and as yet, I've been looking forward to this for a while, and and I'm sure we're going to have a lot of fun. Why don't we start? Maybe you could go back and tell us kind of about the early K growing up. What about you? So people can get to know you?   Kay Thompson ** 02:44 Oh, yeah. So growing up with the daughter of a military father, military officer. As a matter of fact, he rose to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel. So that was interesting. So it was kind of a privileged military life in that sense that, you know, he just was always, he was a very important figure in his time. So that was interesting, walking on the base with him. And, you know, people would stop and salute him, you know, it was, it was, and I was just a little caught, you know, just running alongside him and just real proud, real proud   Michael Hingson ** 03:28 of my father. Did you have any Did you have any siblings?   Kay Thompson ** 03:31 I do? I have two brothers. Yeah, they both lived in Arizona. I was in the middle, so smashed right in the middle between two very muscular, very had a very demanding, commanding, excuse me, commanding presences. So in between the two brothers there, yeah, and then my mother, she was an English teacher, and very, you know, did excellent in her own right. She did a lot of drama, just a lot of teaching. She ended up in her 60s getting her doctorate degree, and, you know, just really excelled in education. And so she was the one that was really big on education. You know, go to school, go to school. Go to school. I don't want to go to school. Well, you need to go to school anyway. So I went to school anyway. That's how I can say my life was. Now, where did you grow up? All over,   Michael Hingson ** 04:32 okay, you did. I was going to ask if you did a lot of travel, since your dad was in the military.   Kay Thompson ** 04:38 Yeah, we certainly did. I was born in Tacoma, Washington. Oh, I don't remember any portion of it, because we were the only there, basically, so I could be born. I feel like, I know that's not the reason. But we went to Washington so I could be born, and then we lived there about a year, and then we moved to New York City. Then. We moved to. Now, by this my brother was already born, because all of us are three years apart. So my brother was born in Verdun, France, okay, and then they moved to, I can't remember where they were before that. I don't know if they went straight to from there to Washington State, and then we moved to New York, and then we went to Aberdeen, Maryland, and that's where my younger brother was born. And then from there, we went to Germany. We stayed there for about three years. From Germany, we went, I can't believe I remember all this. And from Germany, we went to Ohio. We stayed there for a couple of years. And actually we were there when they had that tornado. Was like in the 70s, there was a tornado Zenith Ohio. Well, we weren't far from zenith at the time. So we were there. Then we moved from there to Virginia, and it was there for three years, then to New Jersey, and then that's where my father retired. So we were all over the place.   Michael Hingson ** 06:10 You were, my gosh, well, did you, did you learn any of the foreign languages when you were in Germany and France, or, yeah,   Kay Thompson ** 06:23 in Germany, we could only, I only remember vaguely, you know, hello, thank you to know what it is now off beat is saying goodbye, Danka and bitter, thank you. You're welcome and good, yeah. But tight. But, no, no, we didn't do that at all   Michael Hingson ** 06:47 so, but you, you certainly did a lot and you had a lot of adventures. How do you think that all of that travel affected you as you grew older? What? What did it do that helped shape you?   Kay Thompson ** 07:03 Well, I know that, you know, of course, traveling. You know, you hear the story about kids all the time they travel, and because if they're if they're moving a lot, it's hard to create lasting, long term friendships, because you're just constantly moving. And you know, never mind moving to another city, but when you go to another state, even from another country. Now, I did happen to have a friendship with a young lady. Her name was Audrey, and I met her in Germany, and I was between the age of about three to five. I met her in Germany, and we stayed friends till I was in Virginia. So you're talking from Germany, wow, to Maryland, to Virginia. We were friends until Virginia, but then once I left Virginia and went to New Jersey, and I was there for my part of my middle school and then the rest of my high school, we fell out of touch. So that was one of the things I would say is difficult, you know, just having lifelong friends, yeah, that was, that was probably one of the more difficult things. But one thing on the other side is it made great being that person that was a world traveler. It was great when you're in school and they, you know, they ask you in your classroom, hey, you know, tell us something unique about you. Oh, well, I've been to Germany because my parents, when we were in Germany, they wasted no time traveling. They were always traveling. We were on the road all the time. I mean literally, and you know, they, they were just great world travelers. We went we went to Italy, we went to Spain, we went to France, we went to Switzerland. We went everywhere in Europe that they could get in that Volvo that they had. We had a nice little Volvo, and we would pitch out at, you know, campsites, you know, just any way they could to get where they needed to get, because they wanted to see these sites, and especially because my mother was an English teacher, she did a lot of plays, she directed a lot of plays, a lot of Shakespeare. And so a lot of these places were in these books, in this literature that she taught, and I'm sure that's probably one of the major reasons they did all this traveling, all these places that she had studied about, and, you know, taught about, she actually got to go see now, I must say, the only place I didn't go to that I wanted to go to that for some reason, she took my older brother. She didn't take any, noone else went, but my mother and my older brother. And I can't understand that trip to this day they those two went to. Greece. We didn't know. No one else in the family went to Greece. And I meant to ask, I'm going to, you know, when I finish this interview, I'm going to call my brother and ask him, What, what? What did you and mom go to Greece? You know, because nobody else got to go. But I would have loved to go there as well, but, but at the time, you know, new kid, it was okay. Mom and mom and Chuck are going away. Okay. But now that I think back and look back, maybe it was, I never, I never asked about that, but I'm going to ask, Did   Michael Hingson ** 10:34 it help you, though, develop a sense of adventure and and not create any kind of fear of of traveling around. Did it make you a more curious person? Because you got to go to so many places? Oh, I asked that in the on the basis of as you grew older and thought about it.   Kay Thompson ** 10:52 Oh, yeah, I'm a very curious person, curious person, and at times that can be a little nosy, right? And so, yeah, so that, to me, was, I think, one of the ways that built expanded my mind in terms of wanting to know about people and about things, because I've worked in public relations for many years, and so just being able to understand the perspective of other people from different cultures and different mindsets, being open to people from different cultures, different races, different religions, wanting to hear their point of view, interested in you know how they feel about things, because you can have a subject, or You can have something come up, and you have so many different perspectives from people. And you can see the very same thing, they can be shown the very same thing, but one person sees it from their lens, you know, from where you know, yeah, whether it's how they grew up or their external influences, and then someone could see the very same thing, and it interpret it totally different. Yeah. So   Michael Hingson ** 12:08 one of the one of the things that I've noticed in talking to a number of people who came from military families and and others as well, who did do a fair amount of travel to various countries and so on. They do tend to be more curious, and I think that's a very positive thing. They they have a broader outlook on so many things, and they tend to be more curious and want to learn more and wish that more people could have the same experiences that they had.   Kay Thompson ** 12:40 Yeah. I mean, not afraid to try new things too, for things that other people would would not like. I remember in Germany being very young, being fed octopus and snail. You know, these delicacies over there in Germany, I remember that at this my where my father was stationed, in Germany. The street, it was in like a court area. It felt like a court area, big apartments set up in a U shape, and then right across in a U shape in the in the middle of a field, like an open space, not a field, but an open space. And then right outside of that open space, we could jump out of that open space right into a busy street called Roma Strasse, and right on the other side of that busy street was Old Town, Germany, literally stepping there were no fences and no bars and no gates. We're stepping straight from our backyard into Germany, because the base was more Americanized. So you really felt Americanized on the base. But once you stepped into Germany, the houses were these. You know, cobble it was cobblestone streets. And I remember me and my brothers used to walk out of our backyard, that big open area, and go across the street into Germany and get the authentic gummy bears. That was our weekly trip. And these gummy bears, I'm telling you now, for gummy bear enthusiasts out there, the gummy bears in Germany looked nothing like these gummy bears that we see here. They were huge. They were the cutest little bears. I almost felt guilty eating them, but we just had a great time. I remember great memories from our exploits, our visits, the life was different. You know, toilet paper was harder. I just remember now that was years ago. I don't know what it's like now, but   Michael Hingson ** 14:49 yeah, but does the gummy bears taste better?   Kay Thompson ** 14:53 Well, now I can't remember, because then, when you're a kid, any candy, you know, if you say candy, I say, yeah. Much, you know. So when I was that young, I couldn't tell, but they probably did, you know. But then again, for those people that like because I don't drink, but the beer there is much darker, too. So some people don't like that. So better to them. You know, could be, you know, we don't like it to us. So   Michael Hingson ** 15:25 I've never been to China, but I've been to Japan twice, and there's a food in China called dim sum. Are you familiar with dim sum? Okay, I'll tell you dim sum in Japan is I and I think better. It's different and tastes better than dim sum in the United States. Now I have to go to China one of these days and try it. Yeah.   Kay Thompson ** 15:48 Well, if you ever go to the buffets, have you ever gone to the Yeah? Yeah. Okay, so if you notice the people that work there, they do not eat the food that the buffet. Yeah, they so one day I'm going to do this too. I'm like, hey, you know, can I have some of which   Michael Hingson ** 16:09 you guys eat? Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, yeah, but it is, it is interesting. It's fun to to investigate and explore. And I haven't traveled around the world much. I have as a speaker, had some opportunities to travel, but I think my curiosity came from being a blind person who was encouraged by my parents to explore, and the result was that I did a lot of exploring, just even in our house around our neighborhood. And of course, when the internet came along, and I still believe this is true, it is a treasure trove of just wonderful places to go visit. And yeah, I know there's the dark web and all that, but I ignore that. Besides that, probably the dark web is inaccessible, and maybe someday somebody will sue all the people who have sites on the dark web because they're not accessible. But nevertheless, the internet is just a treasure trove of interesting places to visit in so many ways. Yeah,   Kay Thompson ** 17:17 and then a virtual reality. So one of the places that I wanted to go to was, I've always wanted to go to Egypt. I haven't had an opportunity yet, and personally, right now, don't know how you know how good an idea that is right now. Yeah, but I went to a recent VR exploration of the pyramids in Egypt. And I'm telling you, if that was how it seemed, it's definitely was a way to help me to, you know, live it out, so to speak. Because there's, like, for instance, there's a place in Florida called the Holy Land, the Holy Land, you know, the whole just like a theme park. And they say it looks, you know, there are areas where it looks just like Israel, parts of Israel. So, you know, in that respect, I've been able to realize some portion of the dream. But yeah, I have been love to get there.   Michael Hingson ** 18:16 I have been to Israel, and I enjoy happy. I was in Israel two years ago. Oh, well, so what did you do after high school?   Kay Thompson ** 18:30 Oh, after high school, interesting. So remember when I was telling you about the school thing? So I was in and out of school. I went to I started college in New Jersey. Where did you I went to Rutgers University. Rutgers, yeah, well, first I started in New Brunswick. Then I came back because we lived closer to Camden. We lived we lived in New Jersey, closer to Philadelphia. Philadelphia was about 20 minutes away.   Michael Hingson ** 18:57 Mm, okay, I lived in, I lived in Westfield, New Jersey. So we were out route 22 from New York, about 15 miles. So we were in the north central part of the state, okay, South North part, or whatever, of the state.   Kay Thompson ** 19:11 Okay, okay, yeah. Well, yeah. First it was in New Brunswick. I was there. And then after I did that, I went for about a semester, and then I transferred over to Hampton University, because both my parents went to Hampton, so I said Hampton didn't stay there, and then I ended up coming back and going to Rutgers in Camden, and there I completed my degree. Took me eight years to complete it. What   Michael Hingson ** 19:42 did you get your degree in?   Kay Thompson ** 19:43 I got my degree in art history and sculpture. So, okay, yeah, and I love what I did. I you know, I had a museum work. Loved working in a museum, and could tell you about all the i. You know, the art, the sculpture, just loved it. But it took me a minute to get that then. And then, after that, I went to, I moved to Atlanta in 92 the end of 92 so after high school, you know, just a lot of challenges, just trying to figure out who I was and what did you do. You know, how I wished I would have, now, looking back on it, I wish I would have, maybe when I got out of high school, just taking some time off first. And because in my heart, I knew I, I knew I, I knew I didn't want to go to school, but I knew I needed to go. I knew there was something in me that said, you you need to go to school. But mentally, I don't think I was mentally prepared for it, for for the you know, because when you get out of high school, and you go into college, it's a unless you take AP courses in high school, you're not prepared for the amount of work you're going to get inundated with. And it was just overwhelming to me. It took all my time. I felt like I was that person. I had to keep reading things over and over again just to get it, I used to have to, not only did I take, you know, what friend of mine calls copious notes, but then I also had to put it over in index cards. And you know, it just took me a long time because my heart wasn't in it at the time. So I ended up meeting a gentleman, my first husband. We were married, we had a son, and then, but he passed away, I think, when my son was about three, and then that's when, okay, okay. Now, you know you now, now, now. I wanted to go. Now I wanted to finish. So it was   Michael Hingson ** 22:00 your it was your husband that passed away. Yes, yeah, okay, yeah, all right, so then you decided you really needed to to do school.   Kay Thompson ** 22:12 Yeah, I needed to complete it. So that's what pushed me to complete it, leaving   Michael Hingson ** 22:17 the major aside of sculpture and art and his art history and so on. If you were to summarize it, what did college teach you?   Kay Thompson ** 22:30 Oh, that's a great question. What did college teach me? Well, you know, it taught me that, you know, I think we just need to, well, you need to know how to focus. It's really was a disciplining moment in my life. I was an Army brat. You know this bottom line, I was an Army brat even though I felt like I didn't get a whole lot of things that I wanted. In reality, I had a, like a kind of a spoiled mentality. And when I got to college, I realized that this stuff is not going to be handed to me, you know, you're not going to be handed an a you know, I'm not going to do your studying for you, you know. And so helping me to kind of detach from things I had just depended on for so long. But in that transition, it became very lonely. College was very lonely. I mean, even when I left, because I got out of when I first went to Rutgers and cam in New Brunswick, right out of high school. I had, I was at the dorm, and I wasn't ready for a dorm. I wasn't ready for that life because, you know, I left almost before the semester was over and I had to go and make up the classes. And, you know, thankfully, they allowed me to make up some of my you know, majority well. As a matter of fact, they let me make them all up, but I still had to put in the work. And that was my thing, putting in the work, putting in the work and doing things that I didn't necessarily like. Because even though I liked art and I like sculpture and all that. There were other classes that I had to take, like humanities and algebra, you know, and history, you know, not not art history, but you know, American history, European history, and all these different other subjects, these other prerequisites or curriculum that you have to take. And I didn't always enjoy those and other I don't want to do that, but no, you actually have to do it. So I'm going to say that college really helped me learn about disciplining myself to do things that I don't necessarily like, but they are required of me,   Michael Hingson ** 24:58 and I. But I would tell you, if you asked me the same question, that would be my answer. It really taught me a lot about discipline. It taught me also to realize that I really did like inappropriately so adventure and exploration and being curious and so on. I also found that my best college courses were the ones, no matter what the subject was or whether I really enjoyed it or not, were the ones where I had good teachers who really could teach and who were concerned about students and interacting with students, rather than just giving you assignments, because they then wanted to go off and do their thing. But I liked good teachers, and I went to the University of California at Irvine, and had, very fortunately, a lot of good teachers who encouraged discipline and being able to function in unexpected ways and and they also pointed out how to recognize like if you're doing something right, like in physics, when my Masters is in physics, one of the First things that one of my professors said is, if you've got to get the right answer, but the right answer isn't just getting the right numbers, like if you are trying to compute acceleration, which we know is 16 feet per second squared, or 9.8 meters per second squared. That's not right. Anyway, 3232 feet per second, or 9.8 meters per second, it isn't enough to get the 32 feet or or the 9.8 meters. You've got to get meters per second squared. Because that never mind why it is, but that is, that is the physics term for acceleration, so it isn't enough to get the numbers, which is another way of saying that they taught me to really pay attention to the details. Yeah, which was cool. And I'm hearing from you sort of the same thing, which is great, but, but then you went to college, and you majored in what you did, and so did you work in the museum part of the time while you were in college?   Kay Thompson ** 27:31 Well, what happened is, I had an art history teacher who just took a, I guess, a liking to me, because I was very enthusiastic about what I did, because I love what I did. And I had a writing background, because I had a mother who was an English teacher. So all my life, I was constantly being edited. So I came in with pretty good grammar and pretty good way to I had a writing I had a talent for writing in a way that the academic were looking for, that art history kind of so I knew how to write that way, and she hired me to help her. She was a professor that did, you know, lectures, and she hired me, paid me out of her own salary, kind of like a work study. And so I worked for her about 20 hours a week, just filing slides and, you know, helping her with whatever she needed, because she was the chair of the department. So that was a great opportunity. I was able to work with her and and maybe feel good to know if somebody thought, you know enough of you know what I did to to hire me, and feel like I I could contribute, and that I was trusted to be able to handle some of these things. I mean, you know, and I don't know how difficult it is to file slides, but you know, when it teacher wants to do a lecture, and back then they were these little, small, little, you know, square slides. Square slides drop into the projector, right? And she's looking for, you know, the temple of Nike. You know, she wants to find it in order. You know, you pull that slide and you put it in your projector, right, carousel, right, yes, yes. So that's what I did, and it was great. I loved it. I learned college. I loved I loved the college atmosphere. I loved being in that vein, and I think I really found my niche when I was when I went to Rutgers in Camden.   Michael Hingson ** 29:48 Well, there's a history lesson sports fans, because now, of course, it's all PowerPoint. But back then, as Kay is describing it, when you wanted to project things you had. Slides. So they were pictures, they were films, and they were all these little squares, maybe two inches square, and you put them in a carousel, and you put them in the projector, and every time you push the button, it would go to the next slide, or you could go back the other way. So PowerPoint is only making it a little bit more electronic, but the same concept is still there. So there, there I dealt with slides. So after college, you, you did time at the university, at the museum, I gather,   Kay Thompson ** 30:31 okay. So what happened with the museum after I graduated from college, immediately I moved to New Jersey, yeah, you know, right? I'm gonna say probably about six months, six months to a year before college, is when my first husband died, and then after I graduated, um, I moved to New Jersey first. Where did you graduate from? Again, Rutgers University in Camden. Okay, so   Michael Hingson ** 30:59 that's New Jersey so you, but after college, you moved,   Kay Thompson ** 31:03 I moved to Georgia, Georgia that   Michael Hingson ** 31:06 that makes more sense. Okay, okay,   Kay Thompson ** 31:08 okay, sorry, yeah, so I moved to Georgia, and immediately, when we came to Georgia, you know my I came with a gentleman who I married shortly after, I moved to Georgia and we opened a art gallery. We were entrepreneurs. We came because, you know, there was, we felt like there was more opportunity in Georgia for small business owners, or would be potential small business owners, or people who wanted to realize their dream. And we know that in Georgia now, I don't know if you know this, but Georgia is a great place for entrepreneurs, so definitely better than where I was at the time. So we packed the U haul and just threw everything in there and came to Atlanta. Now my the gentleman who would be my husband. So I just say my husband now, then he, he had a sister here, so we visited first with her, and that's how we got to really see the scene, check out the scene, and then we came back and moved and found our own place and everything like that. So but when we came, I opened it, I had an art gallery for about a year or so, little bit longer and but that didn't work out. Didn't, you know, just, you know, some things you tried. Just yeah, just didn't work. But then my husband and now just FYI for you, this person, the second person, I married, the second man. He passed away too, but that was in 2008 but so he's my late husband too. So I have two, two husbands that passed away. One was the first one was much younger, and my second husband. We were married for 16 years. This is early on in our relationship. We he he opened a brass outlet, a just all kinds of beautiful black brass vases and animals and just anything brass you wanted. But also, after I shut down the museum I had or the gallery, it was an art gallery, I moved my pieces into his brass outlet, and there I was able to kind of display them and sell them. We had pieces that range from, you know, $25 to $500 so we I found a little space there that I could do my work. So it was a nice little coupling.   Michael Hingson ** 33:43 Yeah, I'm with you. Uh huh. So so you, you have obviously moved on from from doing a lot of that, because now you have other endeavors, as we mentioned at the beginning, being a minister, an entrepreneur, an author and so on. So how did you transition from just doing art to doing some of the things that you do today?   Kay Thompson ** 34:18 Okay, so what happened is when I came to and I guess this is the really, deeply more personal aspect of it all, when, when I came to Atlanta again, my my first husband had passed away. He committed suicide. Yeah, so when I came to Atlanta, my second husband and I were not yet married, and all I knew is that I wanted the relationship not to be the way the first one was, in a sense of. I I didn't want to go through that specific kind of trauma again and and not that the the two gentlemen were similar. They were very different people. My second husband was a very confident, very strong willed, you know, type of a person, but the trauma and my first husband, he had his own strength in, you know, but there's something that happens when you decide, you know, to end your life. Yeah, I wanted to make sure that I had some sort of support, divine support, because the going through something like that, and when I say something like that, not only am I talking about the suicide, but the fact that he was On we were on the phone together when this happened, so and then just dealing with everything that happened around it, you can imagine someone feeling a little bit insecure, unsure. So I really began to seek God for that relationship that I know would sustain me. I had grown up, you know, my parents grew up, they brought us to church. You know, I wouldn't say my parents were they weren't ministers, but they were active in whatever church they went to, and they made sure that we went to church every Sunday, even the Vacation Bible School. I can remember that in New Jersey, I remember, you know, them just being a very, very involved. My my parents. My mother was a singer, so she sang a lot in the choir, lot of solos. My father was a deacon. They both became elders, and elders, meaning they were just senior members of ministry. Because elder in the I'm in a non denominational ministry now, but elder is another way of saying a ordained male Minister their particular denomination, an elder was, you know, almost you might want to say like a trustee, so, but they were root, they they were they were integral to their church, And they were really foundational members. And so I just remember that impact on my life, and so I needed to make sure I had that grounding, and I knew I didn't have it because I was doing any and everything I wanted to do. You know, one of the reasons my my second husband, said, You know, he, I was the one for him, is because we had a drinking competition and I beat him, you know, we were taking shots, and I beat him. And so, you know that that was something that, you know, he said, Oh, you're, you know, girl, you're the one for me. And so that was our life, running, you know, we did a lot of. We entertained. We, you know, we did a lot of partying, as you say, a lot of having a great time. We were living our best life, right? So I knew I wasn't living a life that I could tell, Hey, God, see my life, Aren't you proud? It wasn't that life I was living. I wasn't, you know, doing biblical things. I wasn't living life, right? So I needed to make sure when I came to New Jersey, I mean, when I came to Atlanta from New Jersey with this gentleman that I had not yet married, I said, Lord, you know, help me make the right decision. And I'd say we could be moved to to Georgia in it's something like January, February. Okay, we got married about two months later, and then a month after that, I was pregnant with my daughter. So things being that, it happened very fast. But one thing about it is, of course, when you're pregnant, as a woman, you know, you can't do this. I couldn't do the things that I was doing before, right? The partying, smoking, the drinking, all of that, you know, for the sake of the child. You know, you just can't do it. So I went through a terrible withdrawal. Yeah, it was, it was pretty bad and and the only refuge I had was the church. So that's how I really got into the church. And once I got into the church, I had, I had been in the church before I had made a decision. Decision when I was about, I'm going to say about five, five or six years prior to that, I had given my life to the Lord. I had, you know, come into a relationship with the Lord, but life happened, and I got out of it. You know, I quickly kind of got out of it. And so for many years, I was just doing my own thing. So again, when, when, when we came to Georgia, I got pregnant, got married, going through with the withdrawals. I just, you know, I just went back into the church, uh, rekindled that relationship. Or, or the Bible says that he, he, he's with loving kindness. Has he drawn you? So he really drew me back based on my need. And so I came back to the church and got really, really involved in ministry. And as I got involved, I just kind of threw myself into it, because I could not do the previous things I did. And then even after I had my my second child, it's a daughter, so I have a son and a daughter, I had to live a life that was good for   Michael Hingson ** 41:05 them. And what did your husband think of all that?   Kay Thompson ** 41:09 Oh, yeah. Well, first he thought I had joined a cult. Okay, yeah, that's so that was his first impression. So he came to the church because he wanted to see who these cult members were that were drawing away his wife. And when he came, he got kind of hooked to the church, yeah? But our our faith was never at the same level. You know? He came because of me. I came because of of God, right? And I don't know if he ever really, I don't think he ever really got to that level that I did, where I was just gung ho. Everything was, you know, I was a Jesus girl. I was a holy roller, you know. And he did it for us. He did it for, you know, task sake, because he was a task oriented person. But he came, he came to be a very like my parents. He came to be very important part of the church. He was a deacon. He was faithful. He loved our leaders. He served with faith and integrity. But when it came to that, you know, deep seated personal relationship with God, where you know God, I just give you everything you know that that was mine. That was what I did. So we differed in that respect, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:35 well, well, hopefully though, in in the long run, you said he's passed. I assume it was not a suicide.   Kay Thompson ** 42:45 No, no,   Michael Hingson ** 42:46 Ben that he is. He is moving on in that faith. So that's a hopeful   Kay Thompson ** 42:53 thing. Yeah, I believe he is. He had congestive heart failure and he passed away. And, yeah, I believe he he's now at rest, enjoying his rest. Yes, there   Michael Hingson ** 43:06 you go. So when did he pass in 2008 Okay, so that was 17 years ago. Okay, yep, well, so you were very involved in the church. And I suppose in some senses, it's probably a question that is reasonably obvious, but then I'll still ask, how did you get into the ministry from being very heavily involved in church, and when did that happen?   Kay Thompson ** 43:38 Okay, so one day our church. You know, the churches we have depending on, I guess, your faith or leaders do in the beginning of each year, we have a 21 day consecration, which we do in January, throughout the month of January. You know they might say, okay, 21 for 21 days. Read these scriptures, and we're going to fast from, you know, sweets, meats, or, you know, whatever the directive is. And so we was in a 21 day fast, and that was at my home one day. It was in the middle of the night, and I distinctly heard a call to preach. And that's really how the it all began. I mean, I knew, you know, the Bible says that, you know, even with Jeremiah and Jeremiah one, he says, Before the foundation, you know, before your mother and your father, you know, were together, I have already called you. I already ordained you. So I heard this call to preach, very distinct call, and at that point, I told my pastor, and from that point, I was kind of groomed, and as time went on, I was given more responsibility. Uh, you know, praying, or every now and then, preaching, doing Bible study. The next thing I know, I took my licensing exam, I was licensed, and then after that, I went through ordination, and I was ordained, and that's how it really began. And it was something I really took to heart, because I didn't want to disappoint God again. I didn't want to backslide again. Because, you know, I strongly believed in the faith, and I believe in the faith, and I believe in the power of Jesus, and I didn't want to be that person that Okay. Today I'm going to be faithful to the God and to His Word. But then, you know, then on the next day, you know, you're finding me, you know, yeah, in the liquor store, or, you know, this, doing this, or, you know, in the club. I didn't want to be that person. Yeah, I was, I was sincere, and I was very gung ho, and I wanted to live out this life. I wanted to see what the calling was going to be in my life. And I loved ministry. I loved the word, because I was already an art historian. So I loved history. And so the Bible is all you know, it's something history. It's history. Yeah, it's relevant. History to me, it's alive and active, sure. So it was perfect. It was a perfect pairing for me, and that that's really been my pursuit many these years.   Michael Hingson ** 46:37 So when did you become a minister?   Kay Thompson ** 46:41 Actually, when I, when I was telling you about that fast and when I heard the word preach, essentially when I heard that word preach between me and God, that was when I became a minister. Time wise. When was that time wise? Okay, that was probably 94 Okay. I Yeah, all right.   Michael Hingson ** 47:00 So you were, you were clearly a preacher during a lot of the time with your your second husband, and so on, and, and I am so glad that he at least did explore and and and learn so much. So that's a that's a cool thing. But you've also done some other things. You deal with real estate, you're a TV show host, you're an author and well, business owner, yeah, but I want to, I want to learn more about some of those. But what kind of challenges have you faced in the ministry?   Kay Thompson ** 47:42 Yeah. I would say some of the challenges are, you know, when you're in ministry, you have to preach or get yourself prepared for going before the people. It can be a very lonely lifestyle, yeah, yeah, even, even if you're married, even if you have children, it could still be a lonely and and demanding in its own right, because there is a mandate over your life to live and not according to what you see trending now. And, you know, when I, when I first got started in ministry there, the Internet was not the way it is now. No, no, definitely. Because, I mean, it was in 2000 that I got ordained. And I'm going to say the ministry had been, you know, it was just really starting to, I don't know you guess, she said, make waves. That's when all of the big evangelists were coming out, like, you know, the TD Jakes, the Paula white and the Benny Hinn and the Juanita Biden. That is around that time when those generation of preachers were really at the forefront, correct, low dollar and, you know, Bishop, Carlton, Pearson and Rod Parsley and all these, these names. That's when it really began to really pick up steam. And so that was the error that I started off in. And you wanted to be a person. You wanted to be relevant, but at the same token, you just trying to find that balance between family and ministry and and regular life. You know, can sometimes be really challenging, and I had to learn a lot about the order of things. You know, first it's God, then it's family, and then it's ministry. That's the order. But a lot of times we mix up God and ministry. So what we think is, you know, and. Aspect of things that we think that are God, that are actually ministry, and they supersede your family. That's where you know you can really run into some trouble. So that balance between those different aspects of my life, it was difficult, and then as a person who had a a more a prophetic, a revelatory call. On top of that, God is showing you things about people, about, you know, situations that you don't necessarily ask to know about, you know. And the Bible says, you know, with much knowledge can often come sorrow, you know. And that's when you begin to see God really unveiling and revealing things about people and about yourself. Because you have to be able to, you have to be able to look at yourself and not get too self righteous, right? If God is showing you these things. But in the same token, you don't want to, you know, you say, Okay, God, you're showing me this. What do you want me to do with this? And you know, somebody else might say, Okay, you need to go tell that person what God showed you. You know, I saw you doing this. You better stop, you know, doing this. And then, you know, so busy pointing the finger. Yeah, but you have to remember, you know, and it's, it may be cliches, but you've got three pointing back at you. And so there is, you know, you you've gotta be able to stay humble and yet still balance your family and still, you know, uh, not think yourself to be more than what you are, and yet realize that God has called you to do more in ministry than the average person. So yeah, it can be challenging, but I wouldn't change it for anything.   Michael Hingson ** 51:55 It can be a challenge, but at the same time, you clearly were called to do it, and you work at keeping perspective, and I think that's the important thing, which goes back to college, which helped you learn a lot of discipline, and you get to use that discipline in a different way, perhaps, than you right, you figured out in college. But discipline is discipline, yeah. Well, how did you then get into something like the media and start being a TV show host and those kinds of things?   Kay Thompson ** 52:26 Yeah, so I have a wonderful, wonderful pastor who really takes time to work with their their members and find out what your gifts are, what your talents are, and use them. And so I So, let's just say so I was an artist. Okay, bottom line, I was a sculptor, painter, award winning painter, by the way. Let me just tell you now, you know the first or second painting I did, I entered it into a contest at the college, and I won an award, so I had a gift for this design, but in my time we were transitioning to graphic design, graphic design became the big thing, and I never had if I had the aptitude to do computer science, which, bless his soul, my beautiful son is a computer scientist, right, you know, but that gene, this, that gene, skip right on over me. I was not the math person, and when you said physicist, I said, Hmm, that that, you know, that gene just, just totally went around me,   Michael Hingson ** 53:41 yeah, so you don't know anything about 32 feet per second squared anyway, no,   Kay Thompson ** 53:45 I'm about to say, I trust you, whatever you say, you know, and it's the funny thing is, my father was a mathematician, my older brother was a chemical engineer, and Me, you know that I struggle just to pass geometry. Okay, so no, I was the artsy person.   Michael Hingson ** 54:07 Um, that's fine, but I was, yeah. How'd that get you to the media?   Kay Thompson ** 54:12 Yeah, so I was going to say, so, the combination what happened is my pastor knew a pastor who was looking for a part time job, looking for someone to have a part time job, because he had a he had his own publishing company in his house. He at the time he was he published a book that we talked about church growth. And this was at the time when the Purpose Driven Life, The Purpose Driven Life was a purpose driven church came out. It was a huge success. And he the same thing happened with him here in Atlanta, but no publishing company wanted to take. Make his story, because that's the, you know, the whole the society was inundated with this purpose driven church, you know, it was already written about. It was already done. They didn't want his story. So he decided to create his own publishing company, and it was in the basement of his mansion, and he was looking for someone to be the secretary. So I came in that I was, it was a friend of a friend of friend. They hired me, and I started working for him as a as a secretary. And then they would bring these books over, and he would, you know, send them out to be edited, and then bring them back. And then I would have to mail it out to the to the printer and one of the books one day, and I saw it, and I noticed there were still typos in it. I said, Sir, there's still typos in your book. Oh, really, yeah. And he had already paid this person $1,000 so I went back through it, found all these typos, and that's how I got into publishing, publishing my own books and and everything like that. But then one day, my pastor said, Hey, Kay, why don't you do a radio show? I was like, okay, sure, right, because I had met so many people in ministry from doing their books. So I called the radio station, the local am station, and I said, Hey, how much does it cost to do a show, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was sponsored by my pastor and some other people, and I started a 30 minute show every week. It was called personalities, profiles and perspectives, the three teams, and I would interview people, gospel artists, pastors, you know, just politicians, you know, just people. I would reach out to them. Next thing I know, I got hired by a station in another station in Atlanta. It was called wg, I don't know if you remember, well, you, you probably don't, because you're not from Atlanta, right? But it was W G, U N, 10:10am, in Atlanta, the biggest am station aside from WSB radio, which is WSB 750 the major news network, right? WGN, 1010. Was a huge station, and I got hired by them. I was a DJ. It was a gospel station, and I ended up being the program director, and did a lot of, you know, voiceovers. I did shows, I did production. That's how I got into radio. And I loved it. I loved radio. I loved anything to do with media. It was just I knew it. I got bit with the bug when they opened up that hot mic. That was it. I was in my element. So that's how I got into radio. And then you went to TV. And then I went to TV, yeah, went to TV. Well, what happened is, I was writing books, and there is a station here in Atlanta, W ATC TV 57 and they interview people all over, actually, all over the country. You can come from wherever we know, we've had big names, you know, all kinds of people and local people. And that's one thing about it, is that local people in ministry could go there. They could sing, if they were music artists, they could, you know, talk about their books, talk about their ministry. And so I went on and talked about my book, and next thing I know, I got called in to be a host, and so I've been hosting now for about five years. Wow. You know, on and off. You know, the the show has different hosts each, and I do a couple of times a month. Okay, I'll actually be on there shortly, again in a few days. So   Michael Hingson ** 58:57 tell us about your books. You've mentioned books several times. Did you publish your own books? Okay, so tell us about your books.   Kay Thompson ** 59:06 So yeah, the first four books, well, I've done I've had four books which were on prophecy. The the main title is prophecy in the 21st Century. And then I did four different volumes. The first one was the role of prophecy in the new millennium. And basically that one was written in, I'm going to say around 2012 somewhere about 2012 and it talks about the relevance of prophecy with regard to the millennial generation, and how this you can help steer direct and go alongside millennial mindset, millennial and many millennial aspects of this generation. And then the second book was also the set under the same volume, the same name. Prophecy in the 21st Century, the role of and the second the first one is the role of prophecy in the new millennium. The second one was prophetic healing. And prophetic healing talks about prophecy and healing in the Bible and how prophetic people who operate in the prophetic can help bring forth, healing, societal, healing, relational, healing, physical, healing, financial. And then the third one was about prophetic women. And these are women in the Bible that had a prophetic calling, not necessarily called a prophetess, but display those characteristics of women that operate in Revelation and that sort of gift. And then the fourth one was called the leadership mandate, and it talks about leader and how leaders navigate in the prophetic arena and the characteristics that people ought to have, and leaders in the Bible that also operated in that revelation or that. And then the last book I wrote was called the 30 names, or not the but 30 Names of God, because there are so many more names that God is known by. But I chose 30 names that really stood out to me as what God has called. You know Jehovah Gabor. You know the warrior one fights for us. You know Jehovah Jireh, of course, we know that's our provider. Mm, hmm, Jehovah Rapha, our healer. So I found 30 names that really stood out to me, and I spoke about those in that book. So those are the books that I have, and then I've got another book that will be coming out within the next year, and and it is about healing. So those are my books, and I've published those books. And not only do I, I didn't start off publishing my own books. I started off publishing for other people, right? Because the more I worked in that field, the more I found that I could do better financially if I did it myself. Yeah, so and I, and I, one thing about it is that as a result of being an artist, that the graphic design, computer graphics, came really easy to me, I'll bet. So, yeah, so someone could hand me a manuscript. I had the editing skills right for my mother. So I could edit your book. I could create the design. I could format it. I You. Hand me your manuscript, I hand you back your finished product. So for me, you know, the cheapest person that you know, I pay the least amount because so I can publish as many books as I could write, probably, you know, but that's how I really got started doing that, and then I began to do it for other people, other leaders, other pastors, friends, you know, just people that want that service. I provide that service. And so that's how that really got started.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:12 Now we don't have a lot of time, but I just curious. You also do something in real estate.   Kay Thompson ** 1:03:19 I do, yeah, I I got my license in 2005 and maybe one year, maybe one year, and then I got out of it right away. Life happened, and then I came back in 2022, and began to did it full time. And so I love it. I love real estate. Right now I'm in residential, but I do some commercial, and the ultimate goal is to do mostly commercial and to have a space. The goal for commercial is to really help others entrepreneurs who are interested in having businesses offline, giving them an opportunity to have a space that is little to nothing, and that's one of the ways that I really want to give back, is to be able to offer that opportunity for people out there to help others to achieve that same goal. And so I believe in entrepreneur. I've been an entrepreneur for 17 years now. So, yeah, have a heart for that. So I want to see other people get through that challenge and be successful. So, and I know it takes money,   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:37 but in real estate helps.   Kay Thompson ** 1:04:39 It definitely helps. Yeah? Well, real estate is constantly going up, you know, even if the market is down and even if finances are down, real estate is something that is immovable,   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:52 so go back up.   Speaker 1 ** 1:04:54 Yeah, yeah, for sure, and   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:57 you clearly enjoy everything that you're. Doing, which is the important thing, yes, I have that is that is really cool, and I am so glad that we had a chance to talk about all this, needless to say, and I want to thank you for being on unstoppable mindset. Clearly, you have an unstoppable mindset, and you exhibited in so many ways. So I really want to thank you, but I also want to thank all of you for listening out there, wherever you happen to be, if you'd like to reach out to KK, how can people find you?   Kay Thompson ** 1:05:31 They can go to my website. It is my name, K Thompson, dot, O, R, G, all my books are there? Contact information, some of my podcasts. You can watch some of Atlanta live the videos of the shows. It's all on my website,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:49 all right, and that's in in the notes and so on. So, k, a, y, T, H, O, M, P, S O, n.org, correct. So hope that you'll all go there and and check Kay out and and communicate with her. I'm sure that she would love, and I would love to know what you think and get your thoughts about today. So please feel free to email me at Michael, H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I B, e.com, wherever you're observing our podcast today, please give us a five star rating. We value very highly your reviews, and we, of course, love them most when you give us a five star review. So please do that. And Kay, for you and for everyone who is out there today, if you know anyone else who ought to be on unstoppable mindset, I would really appreciate it if you'd introduce us and we will bring them on the podcast, because we're always looking for people who have stories to tell about their lives and being unstoppable. So please don't hesitate to let us know. You can also go to our podcast page, which is Michael hingson, M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s o n.com/podcast, so we'd love you to do that as well. But again, really appreciate all you being out there and listening to us and and I'm sure you you like, like, I have gotten some wonderful things out of talking with case. Okay, once again, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely wonderful.   Kay Thompson ** 1:07:22 Well, thank you. I really enjoyed it. I appreciate you asking me to be here and just so glad to be able to share with you today your audience. Really appreciate it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:37 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

In episode 144 of White Canes Connect, Lisa Bryant and David Goldstein welcome an incredible team from the Library of Accessible Media for Pennsylvanians (LAMP) in Pittsburgh. Joining us are Mark Lee, Library Administrator; Mary Beth Parks, Patron Services Manager; Laura Hughes, Youth Services Librarian; and Jeff Wright, Manager of Technology and Materials Fulfillment. The LAMP team shares how their mission to make reading and media accessible has grown stronger, culminating in their recognition as the Library of Congress Network Library of the Year—an honor they've now received three times. Mark explains LAMP's history, their statewide reach, and how they're leveling the playing field for Pennsylvanians with print disabilities. Mary Beth details the vital work of reader advisors, guiding patrons through book selections, technology, and resources. Laura highlights engaging youth programs, from in-person and virtual story times to partnerships with schools and families. Jeff walks us through their tech support initiatives, from monthly open tech sessions to tactile programming and innovative use of 3D printing. This inspiring conversation showcases LAMP's creativity, collaboration, and genuine commitment to empowering people through accessible media. If you're not yet connected with LAMP or BARD, now is the time! Show notes at https://www.whitecanesconnect.com/144      Connect with the Library of Accessible Media for Pennsylvanians Learn more about LAMP on their website at https://www.mylamp.org. Email the team at info@mylamp.org or call them at (800) 242-0586. Listen to LAMP on episode 042 at https://www.whitecanesconnect.com/042/.  NFB of PA State Convention Registration is Open Registration is now open for the 2025 NFB of PA State Convention in Harrisburg from November 13 to November 16 at the Best Western Premier! Learn more at https://www.nfbofpa.org/state-convention/. Go directly to the registration form at https://www.nfbofpa.org/register/. Exhibit Hall table registration: https://nfbofpa.org/blog/showcase-your-products-2025-nfb-pa-state-convention-exhibit-hall.  An Easy Way to Help the NFB of PA Support the NFB of PA with every purchase at White Cane Coffee Company by going to https://www.whitecanecoffee.com/ref/nfbp. When you use that link to purchase from White Cane Coffee, the NFB of PA earns a 10% commission! Share the link with your family and friends! Listen to Erin and Bob Willman from White Cane Coffee on episode 072 of White Canes Connect.  Donate to the NFB of PA Like what you hear on White Canes Connect? Support us and donate to the National Federation of the Blind of Pennsylvania, visit https://www.NFBofPA.org/give/. We Want to Hear Your Story Reach out with questions and comments, or share ideas! We want to hear from you. Call us at (267) 338-4495 or at whitecanesconnect@gmail.com. Follow White Canes Connect Find out why White Canes Connect is currently ranked at #13 of the 100 Best Visually Impaired Podcast. Find the show on: Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/white-canes-connect/id1592248709  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1YDQSJqpoteGb1UMPwRSuI  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@pablindpodcast  Visit our website at https://www.whitecanesconnect.com/.

Our guest this time, Elizabeth Gagnon is all about Tea. However, as you will discover, her Tea is not mostly the drink although at the end of our episode we do learn she does like some teas. For Miss Liz, as she is most commonly known, Tea stands for Teaching Educational Awareness.   Miss Liz's life growing up was hard. She was sexually abused among other things. It took her awhile to deal with all the trauma she faced. However, as she and I discuss, she made choices to not let all the abuse and beatings hold her back.   She tried to graduate from high school and was one course away from that goal when she had to quit school. She also worked to get her GED and again was only a few units away when life got in the way.   Liz's story is not to her a tragedy. Again, she made choices that helped her move on. In 2010 she began her own business to deal with mental health advocacy using her Tea approach. Liz will tell us all about Tea and the many iterations and changes the Tea model has taken over the years.   I am as impressed as I can be to talk with miss Liz and see her spirit shine. I hope you will feel the same after you hear this episode.   Miss Liz has written several books over the past several years and there are more on the way. Pictures of her book covers are in the show notes for this episode. I hope you enjoy hearing from this award-winning lady and that you will gain insights that will help you be more unstoppable.     About the Guest:   Elizabeth Jean Olivia Gagnon, widely known as Miss Liz, is an international keynote speaker, best-selling author, and the visionary behind Miss Liz's Tea Parties and Teatimes. A fierce advocate for mental health, abuse awareness, and peacebuilding, she's recognized globally for her storytelling platforms that empower individuals to share their truths “one cup at a time.” From podcast host to humanitarian, Miss Liz uses her voice and lived experience to ignite real change across communities and cultures.   A survivor of extreme trauma, Miss Liz has transformed her pain into purpose by creating safe spaces for open, healing conversations. Her work has earned her prestigious honors, including an Honorary Doctorate for Human Rights, the Hope and Resilience Award, and the World Superhero Award from LOANI. She's been featured on over 200 platforms globally and continues to lead through her podcast, social impact work, and live storytelling events.   Miss Liz is also a multi-time international best-selling co-author in the Sacred Hearts Rising and Unstoppable Gems book series. She's the creator of the TeaBag Story Award and the founder of her own T-E-A product line—Teaching Educational Awareness through fashion, wellness, and personal development tools. With every word, event, and product, Miss Liz reminds us that healing is possible, and that we all hold the power to be a seed of change.   Ways to connect with Elizabeth:   Social media links my two websites www.misslizsteatime.com www.misslizstee.com All my social media links can be found on those sites. Or my linktree.  https://linktr.ee/Misslizsteatime     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to talk to Miss Liz Gagnon, and I'm really interested to hear why she likes to be called Miss Liz instead of Elizabeth, or any of those kinds of things. But Liz also has some very interesting connections to tea, and I'm not going to give away what that's all about, but I'll tell you right now, it's not what you think. So we'll, we'll get to that, though, and I hope that we get to have lots of fun. Over the next hour, I've told Liz that our podcast rule, the only major rule on this podcast is you can't come on unless you're going to have fun. So I expect that we're going to have a lot of fun today. And Liz, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We are glad you're here.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 02:09 Well, thank you so much, Michael for having me. It's an honor to be here. I can't wait to dip into the tea and get everybody curious on what we're going to be spilling. So,   Michael Hingson ** 02:19 so how did you get started with the the name Miss Liz, as opposed to Elizabeth or Lizzie or any of that kind of stuff.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 02:28 Well, I have all those names too, Michael, I'll bet you   Michael Hingson ** 02:31 do. But still, Miss Liz is what you choose.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 02:35 Actually, Miss Liz was given to me at the age of four the same time my cup of tea was given to me at the age of four by my Oma. I that she just had a hard time saying Elizabeth. She was from Germany, so she would just call me Miss Liz. Miss Liz. And then I knew, Oh boy, I better move, right.   Michael Hingson ** 02:52 Yeah. If she ever really got to the point where she could say Elizabeth, very well, then you really better move.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 02:59 Well, she used to call me Elvira too, and I didn't like that name Elvira. Yeah, I don't know how she got Elizabeth from a viral but she used to call me a vira. I think maybe it was because her name was Avira, so I think it was close to her name, right? So, well,   Michael Hingson ** 03:17 tell us a little bit about the early Miss Liz, growing up and all that stuff, and little bit about where you came from and all that.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 03:25 Well, I come from a little town called Hearst, Ontario in Canada. It's about maybe 6000 population. I'm going to guess. I was born and raised there until the age of I think it was 31 when I finally moved away for the last time, and I've been in the East End, down by Ottawa and Cornwall and all that stuff since 2005 but My early childhood was a hard one, but it was also a strong one. I A lot of people will say, how do you consider that strong? I've been through a lot of abuse and neglect and a lot of psychological stuff growing up and but I had my tea, I had that little Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole that I could go down once in a while, just to keep me moving and keep me strong, right? So, yeah, my story was, was a hard one, but I don't look at it as a struggle. I look at it as as stepping stones of overcoming Stuff and Being that voice that I am today,   Michael Hingson ** 04:29 struggle, if you if you're willing to talk about a struggle, how   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 04:35 I was sexually abused by my uncle at the age of four, and then other family members later on, in couple years later down the road, but my uncle was the main abuser, and I became impregnant by my uncle and lost a daughter to stillborn. So there was a lot of shame to the family. Was not allowed to speak at this child for many, many years, I finally came out with her story. After my father passed, because I felt safe, because my family would put me into psychiatric wards when I would talk about my little girls,   Michael Hingson ** 05:06 wow, yeah, I, I don't know I, I just have very little sympathy for people who do that to girls, needless to say, and now, now my cat, on the other hand, says she's abused all the time, but that's a different story,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 05:25 right? But I strongly believe, Michael, that we all go through challenges and struggles in life to have our story, to be that voice where we are today, like like yourself, right? Had you not gone through what you went through, you would not have the story that you have   Michael Hingson ** 05:42 well, and I think that it also comes down to what you decide to do with the story. You could just hide it, hide behind it, or other things like that. And the problem is, of course, that then you don't talk about it. Now, after September 11, I didn't go through any real counseling or anything like that. But what I did do was I and my wife and I discussed it. We allowed me to take calls from reporters, and literally, we had hundreds of calls from reporters over a six month period. And what was really fascinating for me, especially with the TV people who came. I learned a whole lot about how TV people set up to do an interview. We had a Japanese company with two or three people who came, and that was it up through an Italian company that had 15 people who invaded our house, most of whom didn't really seem to do anything, and we never figured out why were they. They were there. But it's fascinating to see how   06:46 extras, Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 06:49 extra, the extras, yeah, but we but it was very fascinating. But the point was that the reporters asked everything from the most inane, dumb question to very intelligent, wise, interesting questions, and it made me talk about September 11. So I don't think that anything could have been done in any other way that would have added as much value as having all those reporters come and talk to me. And then people started calling and saying, We want you to come and talk to us and talk to us about what we should learn from September 11 lessons we should learn talk about leadership and trust in your life and other things like that. And my wife and I decided that, in reality, selling life and philosophy was a whole lot more fun and rewarding than managing a computer hardware sales team and selling computer hardware. So I switched. But it was a choice.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 07:48 Yeah, it is a choice, right? Michael, do you, do you stay in the self pity, or do you rise from it, right? And a lot of people were like, Miss Liz, how can you be so good hearted and open to people that have hurt you so bad? And I always said, since I was a little girl, Michael, I would not give anybody what others gave me. Yeah, you know that that little inner girl in me always said, like, you know what it feels like. Would you like somebody else to feel this way? And the answer is no.   Michael Hingson ** 08:16 And with people like your uncle, did you forgive them ever? Or have you,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 08:21 I forgive them for myself. Yeah, I that's how you do. You know, I'm not forgiving you and coming for your Sunday dinner and having roast beef and pretending that it was all fun and games. When I was younger, I had no choice to forgive him and to be around him, because that's how my parents were. You know, don't bring shame to the family and as a minor. Well, you you know you obey your parents and that, and I hate that word, obey I hear. You know, I grew up in a time where you respect your elders, right? Whether they were good or bad, you respected them. It was Yes, sir, yes, ma'am. You know whether they hurt you or not, you just respected these people. Do I? Do I have respect for them today, absolutely not. I pray for them, and I hope that they find peace within themselves. But I'm not going to sit in and apologize to somebody who actually doesn't give to to tune darns of my my apology, right? So my words?   Michael Hingson ** 09:23 Well, the the bottom line is that respect is something that has to be earned, and if they're not trying to earn it, then you know, why should you respect? On the other hand, forgiveness is something that you can do and and you do it and you move on, yeah, and   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 09:40 a lot of people don't understand the real forgiveness, right? They always tell me, Miss Liz, you haven't forgiven anybody. And I said, Yes, I have, or I wouldn't be where I am today, guys, yeah, if I wouldn't have forgiven those people for myself, not for them.   Michael Hingson ** 09:55 Now, see, that's the difference between people and my cat. My cat has no self pity. She's just a demanding kitty, and I wouldn't have her any of that. Oh, she's she's really wonderful. She likes to get petted while she eats. And she'll yell at me until I come and pet her, and then she eats while I'm petting her. She loves it. She's a cutie. She's 15 and going on two. She's great.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 10:17 Oh, those are the cute ones, right? When they stay young at heart, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 10:21 oh, she, she does. So my wife passed in 2022, and now stitch, that's the cat's name, sleeps up next to me. And so that works out well, and she was named stitch when we got her, not quite sure where the name originally came from, but we rescued her. We were not going to keep her. We were going to find her a home because we were living in an apartment. But then I learned that the cat's name was stitch, and I knew that that cat weren't going to go nowhere, because my wife had been a quilter since 1994 you think a quilter is ever going to give up a cat named stitch? So stitch has been with us now for over 10 years. That's great. Oh, wow. And there's a lot of love there,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 11:03 yeah. And, you know, these little connections, right? The Universe sends us, you know, the names and all of that. They send us pets as well as guidance. You know, my little guy is Tinkerbell, and everybody thinks that she's still a kitten. She she's going to be 12 in September, so, but she's still a little tiny thing. She kept the name. She just wants to be a little Tinkerbell. So   Michael Hingson ** 11:24 that's cool. What a cute name for a kitty. Anyway, yeah, well, so you, you grew up? Did you go to to college or university?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 11:34 No, I got out of school. I was half a credit away from high school graduation. I became pregnant for the second time, and then I got married at 18. While it was more or less I was I had no choice to get married or or I would have, my father would have took my daughter from me, my oldest, who is alive, and I I had already lost one, and I wasn't losing a second one. So I got married. I did go back to adult school in 2000 I got I was one exam away from getting my GED, and that night, I got a beating of a lifetime from my ex husband, because he didn't want me to get ahead of him, right? So, and then I went back again to try and get my GED three other times, and I was always four points away from getting what I needed to get it. So I was just like, You know what? The universe doesn't want me to have this piece of paper, I guess. Yeah, and I'm not giving up, right? I'm just it's not the right timing and maybe in the future, and it's always the y and s string that gets me the four point question guys on the math exam that gets me every time, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:49 oh, well. Well, I always thought that my wife, in so many ways, was was ahead of me, and it didn't ever bother me, and it never will bother me a bit, just things that she would say, creative things, just clever things. She clearly was ahead of me, and I think she felt the same way about me in various ways, but that's what made for a great marriage. And we we worked off each other very well, and then that's kind of the way it really ought to be. Oh boy, ego, ego gets to be a real challenge sometimes, though, doesn't   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 13:24 it? Oh yes, it does. So   Michael Hingson ** 13:27 what did you do when you didn't go off and end up going to school?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 13:32 I became a mom, and then I did the mom role, right? I grew up in a kind of like a redneck, hillbilly kind of family where the accent kind of kicks in once in a while. You know, it was barefoot and pregnant, you take care of the kids, cook and clean and be the wife and just obey. Once again, that word obey. You know, I grew up with that word a lot, and that's why you don't like that word. I'm surprised I'm even using it tonight. But, yeah, so it was just take care of the family and just live. And eventually, in 2005 a lot of things happened with my children and myself, and we just left and started a new life. In 2006 I felt ill. I was at work, and my left arm went numb, and I thought I was having a heart attack or or that they were checking me since I was little, for MS as well, because I have a lot of problems with my legs. I fall a lot, so we're still looking into that, because I'm in the age range now where it can be diagnosed, you know, so we're so in 2006 I became ill, and I lost feelings from my hips down where I couldn't walk anymore. So I had to make some tough choices, and I reached out to my family, which I kind of. Figured I'd get that answer from them. They told me to get a backbone and take care of my own life and stop because I moved away from everybody. So I turned to the foster care system to help me with my children, and that was a hard choice. Michael, it took me two and a half months. My children sat down with me and said, Mommy, can we please stay where we are? We we have friends. You know, we're not moving all the time anymore. I saw it took a while, and I signed my kids over legal guardianship, but I made a deal with the services that I would stay in the children's lives. I would continue their visits twice a month, and be at all their graduations, be at their dance recital, anything I was there. I wanted my children to know that I was not giving up on them. I just was not able to take care of them in my   Michael Hingson ** 15:50 home. Did they accept that?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 15:53 Oh, they did, yeah, and it was a bumpy road. The first five years. Was a lot of adjusting, and we were really close. I got to pick the foster homes, which is not usually the way it works. So and my children went through a lot of abuse as well. My ex husband was very abusive, so I knew that my daughter needed to be around horses. She loved to be around horses, so I found her home that had horses. And my other two children, I found a home where they had music, and music was really important to me, because music is what saved me as well during my journey, right? I turned to music to to get through the hard times. So yeah, the first five years was it was adjustments, and really good, and we got along. And after that the services changed, new workers came in, and then it became a nightmare. There was less visits happening. There was an excuse for a visit. There was oh, well, maybe we can reschedule this, or if we do them at five in the morning, can you show up? And of course, I was showing up at five and going to bed as soon as the visit was done, because I was by myself, so it was a journey, but and I I am grateful for that journey, because today me and my older kids, who are adults, were really close, and we're building that bond again, and they understand the journey that Mom had to take in order for them to have a home.   Michael Hingson ** 17:24 They understand it and accept it, which is really obviously the important thing,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 17:30 yeah. But it's been, it's been rocky. Michael, like, you know, we've had our ups and downs. We've had like you You gave up on us. Like, you know, we've had those moments. But my children now becoming adults and becoming parents themselves. They see that. They see what mom had to do, right?   Michael Hingson ** 17:47 So are you able to walk now and move around?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 17:51 Oh, yeah, I was. It took about six months for me to learn how to walk again. I still have a limb from time to time. A lot of people call it my penguin little limp, because I limped like a little penguin from time to time, because my what happened is I went through so much trauma in my life constantly that I they diagnosed me with conversion disorder, which is not really well known to to a lot of people. And what it does is it shuts the body down, so I have no control over when my body says it's going to take a break. It just says I'm going on holidays, and you just gotta deal with it. So there's days where I can't walk, right? There's days where I can't talk. It sounds like I'm drunk. My sight is blurred, plus I'm already losing my sight because of genetic jerusa and stuff like that as well. So, but I mean, it took everything in me to push myself. And what pushed me was I had this nurse that was really rough with me, and she would give me these sponge baths, and she would slam me into the chair. And I told her, I said, next week, you will not be slamming me in that chair. And the next week I got up and I took three steps, and then the next couple hours, it was four, five steps, six steps. And I was like, I got this. I know I can do this, but it took six months, Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 19:15 but still, ultimately, the bottom line is, no rugby or American football for you. Huh? Nope. Okay.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 19:24 No, not you know, not yet. Anyway, well, maybe you never know, right? I'm still young. I'm only 51 you never know what I'm going to be doing next year. I always tell everybody, Miss Liz is always on an adventure.   Michael Hingson ** 19:36 So yeah, but I'm I'm not, I'm not an advocate of going off for rugby or football, but that's all right, do whatever works.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 19:42 Well, I'd like to watch football   19:45 that's different. I'd like to   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 19:47 check those boys out once in a while. Well, yeah, but yeah, no, I You just never know where I'm gonna go, right? Only the good universe knows where it's putting me next   Michael Hingson ** 19:58 year. So, so what kind. Of work. Did you did you do and, and what are you doing now? How to kind of one lead to the other?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 20:08 Actually, I started my business in 2015 of Miss Liz tea times. It was a fundraising Tea Party, but it started in my home. All I did was have a bunch of ladies over and celebrate strong women. And one lady really liked the layout that I did, and she's like, Can we do this in the community? I was like, I don't know. Let's try it. You know, if we don't try, we don't know. And then I went to the community for, I think, three years, we raised over $5,000 for different services that helped me along the way as well, and places that needed money for serving the community. And then we went virtual. When covid hit. The podcast came along, and I did that for five years, and I burnt myself out doing that. I'm an all or nothing kind of girl, so you either get nothing at all, or you get it all at once. So and and now I'm I've been writing and working on stuff and working on an E commerce business with a new way of serving tea, keeping people on their toes and wondering what's coming next. Uh, children's book is coming out soon. Uh, poultry book. So I've just been busy writing and doing a lot of different things.   Michael Hingson ** 21:14 What did you do before 2015 for worker income? Or did you   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 21:18 I worked in gas stations, chambermaid kind of stuff like that, something that wasn't too educated, because my ex husband didn't like that stuff, right? Don't try and be a leader. Don't try and be in the big business world. I'm sure he's his head is spinning now, seeing all the stuff that I'm doing, but that's on him, not me. So, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 21:41 yeah, absolutely, alright, let's get to it. Tell me about tea.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 21:49 Well, tea, tea started at four, and it was my OMA that gave me a cup of tea. And everybody thinks it's the beverage. It's not the beverage. We did have a cup of tea. So there is a beverage, there is a beverage involved. But she gave me words, and when I was little, I didn't understand these words. She said, reflect, recharge and release. And she came from the war in Germany, and she said the first thing I had was a cup of tea when I came to Canada, and she just knew that I was going to have a hard life. She knew that the family was kind of, you know, they had their sicknesses and addictions and stuff like that, so she just knew. And I was a quiet kid. I was always in the corner humming and rocking myself and doing stuff by myself. I didn't want to be around people. I was really loner. And she gave me these words, and these words resonated with me for years, and then I just kept hearing them, and I kept hearing Tea, tea. I know sometimes I'd be sitting in a room Michael by myself, and I'd be like, Okay, I don't want a cup of tea right now. Like, I don't know what this tea is like, but it was like the universe telling me that I needed to get tea out there. And I knew it wasn't a beverage. I knew it was. OMA gave me words. So we gotta bring words to the table. We gotta bring the stories to the table. She was giving me a story. She was telling me to stay strong, to recharge, to reflect, release all of the stuff that all of these things take right, to overcome stuff. You know, we have to reflect on the journey that we were put on, and recharge ourselves when we overdo ourselves and release, releasing and letting go of things that we know will never, ever get an answer to. So,   Michael Hingson ** 23:32 so you, what did you do with all of that? I mean that those are some pretty deep thoughts. Needless to say.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 23:38 Yeah, so I, I started with the tea time at home, and then when I went to the podcast, I would ask people, What is your tea? And then people were like, Miss Liz, I don't even like tea, like I'm a coffee drinker, or I like a good beer, or I'm just like, Okay, well, you don't even have to like the beverage. Like, it's not about the beverage. It's about our past, our present and our future. That's what the tea is, right? We all have that story. We all have the past, the present and the future, and how we how we look at it, and how we defined our stories, and how we tell our stories. So that's where the T is.   Michael Hingson ** 24:10 But you came up with words for the acronym eventually, yes, yes. When did you do that? And what were the words   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 24:20 I came up with the words I believe in 20, 2016 2017 and for me, it was teaching. I wanted to be a little kindergarten teacher when I was a little girl. So T was teaching right and teaching myself that the past was not going to define my future story. He was educational. I again. I wanted to be a teacher. I wanted to educate people. I wanted to educate myself. Even though I didn't have those degrees and I didn't go to school and universities, I could still educate myself. I could still reach out. I could still research. I could still find answers myself. And a was awareness, just bringing awareness that our lives are different and. Can change them, right? Nobody can define how our stories end, except for ourselves. Yeah, and the A, A was awareness, and the awareness that, you know, that we can bring any form of awareness, good, bad or ugly, you know, and I bring a little bit of all of it through my stories, and through, through the the overcoming that I've had, right is, it's an ugly story. There were bad things that happened, but there are good results in the end, yeah, because had I not gone through what I went through, Michael, I would not be here having this conversation with you tonight,   Michael Hingson ** 25:37 or it'd be a totally different conversation, if at all you're right, absolutely. So you you deal a lot with being a mental health advocate, and that's very understandable, because of all of the things that that you went through. But what kind of really made you decide to do that?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 25:58 Mental health advocate was deep in my blood since 2010 when I went to the pharmacy and gave them all my medication and said, I no longer want any of this because they had me so numbed with antidepressants and painkillers and stuff that I didn't even know I had children. People were telling me, your kids are coming for a visit. And I was like, why are you telling me I have kids? Like I'm a kid myself, like I was going backwards. And I didn't know that I was married, that I had children, but my kids names were and I was just like, like, When is mom and dad coming to get me? Like, I was like, I was so messed up, Michael. And I was just like, I'm not doing this anymore. Um, August 29 of 2009 I brought my medication, and I said, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm taking ownership of my life. I'm being the advocate of my life. I do not need these pills. Yes, it will be hard, yes, I've got trauma, but there's another way of doing this.   Michael Hingson ** 26:55 Well, you're clearly a survivor, and you've made choices that demonstrate that by any standards, and obviously a mental health advocate, what do you think are some of the major misconceptions that people have about mental health today that they also just don't seem to want to get rid of?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 27:15 Well, a lot of people have this conception that if you take a pill, it's going to go away. You're healed, you know, and then they get hooked on pills, or they get hooked on this is easy fix, right? Like I said this afternoon in another interview, I did this certain this afternoon. Michael, you know, we get these diagnosis, but doctors don't really sit with us and explain the diagnosis to us, they don't really understand. They don't really explain the side effects of the pills that they're giving us, and then themselves, may not even know the full aspect of those diagnosis. They just put you on a checklist, right? You check A, B, C and D, okay. Well, you have bipolar. You got DCE and you got D ID, like, you know, it's charts, so we're not really taking the time to understand people. And mental health has a long way to go, a lot of a long way to break the stigma as well, because mental illness, most of it, cannot be seen. It cannot be understood, because it's inside the body, right?   Michael Hingson ** 28:23 Yeah. And a lot of people don't want to look and analyze that and try to help truly deal with it.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 28:32 Yeah. A lot of people will judge what they don't understand or what they're scared of understanding,   Michael Hingson ** 28:39 which is why it's fascinating, and we've had a number of people on unstoppable mindset who believe in Eastern medicine and alternative medicine, as opposed to just doing pills. And it's fascinating to talk to people, because they bring such insights into the conversation about the human body, and many of them have themselves, used these alternatives to cure or better themselves, so it makes perfect sense, but yeah, we still don't tend to want to deal with it. Yeah?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 29:17 Well, anything that's uncomfortable, right? We don't want to really face it, right? We want to run from it, or we want to say, Oh, it's fine. I'll get to it next week, and then next week comes to next month, and next month comes to next year, and you're still dealing with the the same trauma and the same pain, right? Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 29:35 Well, so tell me about tea time with Miss Liz, because you've developed that. You've brought it into existence, and that obviously also helps deal with the mental health stigma. Tell me about that?   29:50 Well, I just   Michael Hingson ** 29:51 one question, but, well,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 29:53 I just really wanted to meet people, and I wanted to hear their stories, you know, because it gets lonely once in a while. And you're always telling your story, right? So I wanted to get other stories, but I didn't want to just deal with mental health. I wanted to deal with grief and abuse and things, everything that I've lived with, right? And it all goes back to trauma, like all three of them, abuse, grief, mental health, it deals with trauma in some form. And then I got, I got hooked to a bunch of people that found Miss Liz on on the airwaves, and then connected with you, Michael, you were a guest on Tea Time. Yeah, my last season, and, you know, and I got to go down a bunch of rabbit holes with a bunch of cool people. And tea time was just a place for everybody, just to come and share, share what they were doing and why they were doing it, right? So a lot a lot of the questions that I asked was your younger self way? What? How do you see your younger self to your older self, and why are you doing what you're doing today? And a lot of people are writing books because writing saved them through hard times in life as well. And a lot of mental health back in the 60s, 70s and 80s, were not spoken of. You know, it was really hush hush. Oh, that person's just a rebel, or that person's just a little crazy once in a while, or has too much to drink from time to time. So mental health wasn't really spoken about in those those decades, right? So,   Michael Hingson ** 31:27 yeah, and you know, but I hear what you're saying about writing, and you know, I I've written now three books, and I've learned a lot as I write each book, and I think there's a lot of value in it, but also it's more than writing, although writing is is a way to to really do it from the most personal standpoint possible. But as as you've pointed out, talking about it is also extremely important, and talking about whatever, whether it's a bad thing or a good thing, but talking about it as well as writing about it is is valuable, because if we take the time to do all of that, we'll learn a lot more than we think we will well.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 32:13 And there's so many different genres of writing, right? There's horror, there's fiction, there's non fiction, there's children's books, you know, but those are all storytellers too, in a different way.   Michael Hingson ** 32:24 Well, they are and and again, it's the the point is, though, that when you take the time to write, you really have to think about it, probably even more than, sometimes, than people, when they just talk about things. And as you're writing, like I said, you learn a lot no matter what genre of writing you're doing, you're putting yourself into it, and that, in of itself, helps educate and teach you   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 32:53 absolutely, you know, and I learned so much from a lot of the authors that were on Tea Time, You know, little tricks and little ways of making skits and scenes and characters and names for their characters. And I'd be like, well, where'd you get that name? And they'd be like, I don't know what, just a childhood name that was stuck with me for a long time. I really liked meeting authors that wrote their memoirs or stories, because I'm a person that likes truth. I'm a truth seeker. You know, if it doesn't, it doesn't match up. I'm just like, let me ask you more questions. Let me take you down this rabbit hole a little more. So,   Michael Hingson ** 33:35 yeah, well, a lot of people tend to not want to talk about their journey or talk about themselves, and they feel unseen and unheard. How would you advise them? What would you advise them to do?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 33:51 I felt that way for many years. Michael, growing up in the in the situation that I grew up in, right? You did, and I wrote my first book. I was a co author in the Sacred Hearts rising series by compiled by Brenda Hammond in Alberta. And her book, hear me, kept reaching out to me. I kept hearing I didn't even know what the book was. It was just the title was hear me. And I kept saying, I want people to hear me. I want I want to be heard like, I want people to know this, like I'm tired of living in silence, you know, just to keep everybody hush hush, because everybody's comfortable. So I reached out to Brenda, and that's how my writing journey started. Was with Brenda, and I wrote my first chapter in there, and and it just continued to the ripple effect into other books and other anthologies and other people. And I find that the universe is guiding me, like bringing me to the people that I need to see. You know, like meeting you. Michael, like, had I not started a podcast and met Mickey Mickelson, I would have never met you. Michael, so Mm hmm.   Michael Hingson ** 34:54 And he continues to to be a driving force in helping a lot of authors. Absolutely.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 35:00 Absolutely, yeah. I'm not even sure how Mickey found me. We had a video call, and the next thing I knew, we were working together for three years, and I got to meet incredible authors through Mickey. Creative edge, and it's, it was one of the driving force of Tea Time with Miss Liz.   Michael Hingson ** 35:19 I can't remember exactly how I first heard of Mickey, either, but we we chatted, and we've been working together ever since.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 35:29 Yeah, Mickey is pretty awesome. I still keep my eyes on Mickey, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 35:36 and for those who don't know, Mickey is kind of a publicist. He works with authors and helps find podcasts and other opportunities for authors to talk about what they do and to interact with the world.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 35:50 Yeah. And then I got Yeah. And then I got to meet other people that found me on the airwave, through my press releases and through me speaking at different events. I had other people reach out with their authors and their members and all of that. And I got to meet some really incredible people, like I've had doctors on Tea Time. I've had Hollywood directors on Tea Time. I've had best selling authors like yourself Michael, like, you know, I got to meet some really incredible people. And then I got to meet other people as well that were doing movements and orphanages and stuff like that. We reached over 72 countries, you know, just people reaching out and saying, Hey, Miss Liz, can we have tea? And absolutely, let's sit down. Let's see what? Where you gotta go with your tea?   Michael Hingson ** 36:35 So you're in another season of tea time right now. No,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 36:39 I'm not. A lot of people are asking me to come back. I don't know if I will come back. I am working on, like I said, the E commerce drop shipping company for Miss Liz. I'm working on children's book. I'm working on poultry. I'm doing a lot of interviews now for my own books, daytime books and stuff like that. But I am reconsidering coming back maybe for a couple surprise podcast interviews. So   Michael Hingson ** 37:07 well, tell us about the E commerce site, the store.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 37:11 Well, that was supposed to be launched on my birthday. I like to give myself birthday gifts because I'm by myself a lot. So two years ago, I gave myself the tea books for my birthday. And this year I was supposed to give the E commerce drop shipping, where we opened a second branch of Miss Liz's tea, where we changed the letter A to E, so T, E, E instead of T, E, A. But if you look at my OMA, who comes from Germany, T in Germany, is tee, so we're still keeping almost T, we're just bringing it in a different way. And   Michael Hingson ** 37:45 what does it stand for? Do you have definition   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 37:50 of it for the for this T? We have transcend embrace and envision. So transcend beyond the story that we all tell. Embrace Your embrace the journey that you're on and envision your dreams and visions that you can move forward.   Michael Hingson ** 38:07 So how's the E commerce site coming?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 38:11 It's coming along. We got a couple of hiccups. I just want to make sure that everything is good to go. We have over 100 different products, and again, we do not have the tea beverage on the site. So you guys can see that Miss Liz is staying true to herself, that it is not about a beverage, but we do have an inner journey happening. So you'll have to check that out. So we have some some candles and some journals, some fashion that Miss Liz has created. So there's a lot of cool things that you'll see, and then we have some collaboration. So if any of the businesses out there would like to collaborate with missus, because I'm big on collaboration, we can maybe come up with a brand or or a journal or something that we can work two brands together to create a bigger inner journey for people   Michael Hingson ** 39:02 to enjoy. Is the site up.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 39:05 It was up, and we had to take it down because there were some glitches in it, and I wanted to make sure that it so we're hoping that it's going to be going for June 1. I don't like to set dates, because then I get disappointed, right? If something comes up. So it was supposed to be May 17, guys, and I know that a lot of people were looking forward to it. My children were looking forward to it because of the fashion. And there's something for everyone on on the new website, for children, for parent, for mothers, for fathers, for family. So I wanted to make sure that everybody was included.   Michael Hingson ** 39:41 Tell me about some of the fashion things.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 39:44 So we have inner journeys. So I had an eating disorder from the age of 12 Michael, so I had a body image all the time. So I wanted to make sure that we felt beautiful about ourselves. So we have some summer dresses. In there, we have some swimwear. Swimwear was another thing that I didn't really like to wear growing up. I like to be covered a lot. So we and then we have undergarments for people to feel beautiful within themselves. And then we have hoodies and T shirts. But we have messages, little tea messages from Miss Liz.   Michael Hingson ** 40:23 Now, are most of these fashion things mainly for women, or are there some men ones on there as well?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 40:28 No, we have men. Men have stories too. So there, there's, I thought. So, yeah, we have men in there. We and we have, I'm really big on having men share their stories, because I have a son. I've said this on many platforms. I would want my son to have the same services that his mother has. So of course, there's a men where in there, there are children's wear in there as well, and there's some puzzles and some diamond art and all of that. So there's a little bit of everything in there.   Michael Hingson ** 41:00 So how do you use all of the different mechanisms that you have to promote awareness? I think I know the answer to this, but I'd like you to tell how you're promoting awareness, mental health and otherwise awareness.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 41:15 I think the way that I'm promoting myself and my brand, Michael is just show up and be yourself, believe in yourself and stay true to yourself, be your real tea, you know. And the way that I'm branding and marketing it is, I'm breathing different. So when you hear tea, you think the beverage right away. Well, then when you hear Miss Liz, you know, Miss Liz is not bringing a beverage. So right over the way you're getting different, right? And I like to keep people on your toes, because they think that they might know what's coming, but they don't know same as, like the fashion, where you might think you know what's coming, but then you'll be like, Whoa. This is not what I was thinking.   Michael Hingson ** 41:54 And you and you put as you said, sayings and other things on there, which help promote awareness as   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 41:59 well. Absolutely, yeah, and it's simple phrases that I use all the time. You tell me, I can't, and I'll show you I can. You know, it lives in you. These are some of the brand messages that I have on my on my merchandise. Also, men have stories too simple phrases. You know that we just gotta make awareness. It's so simple sometimes that we overthink it and we overdo it, that we just gotta keep it simple.   Michael Hingson ** 42:28 Mm, hmm. Which? Which make perfect sense? Yeah. So you, you talk a lot about mental health. Have we made improvements in society regarding mental health, and how do we do more to represent marginalized voices? Oh,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 42:50 we got lots of work to do. Michael, we're not even close, you know, we're just on the touch of the iceberg for mental health. We have all these organizations that are competing with each other instead of collaborating. I think we would really make a huge difference if we started working together instead of against each other. Or my service is better than your service. Let's start just collaborating together and working together as one. You know that all this division in the mental health world is what's causing the distractions and the delays in services and and getting help? You know, I think we just need to start working together. And collaboration is not weakness. It's not taking somebody else's product away. It's working together. It's teamwork. And I think we need more teamwork out there.   Michael Hingson ** 43:41 We also need to somehow do more to educate the governments to provide some of the funding that they should be providing to help this process.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 43:51 Absolutely, and I think the statuses need to really be looked at. They're not even close.   Michael Hingson ** 43:59 Yeah, I I agree there, there's a long way to go to to deal with it,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 44:04 absolutely. You know, just throwing numbers out there to have numbers, but not actually getting the real factual information out there can cause a lot more damage.   Michael Hingson ** 44:17 So if you could shift one mindset regarding mental health, what would it   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 44:24 be? Oh, good question. Michael, hmm, that we're not alone, okay, because a lot of people with mental illness think they're alone, but we're actually not alone. There's, there's a lot of people out there that are feeling the same thing as us,   Michael Hingson ** 44:47 and that's a mindset that people have, that we need to to deal with. We need to change. We need to teach people that the reality. Is there a lot of people, whether they've experienced the same things as as any individual has or not, isn't the issue. But there are a lot of people who do want to be more welcoming, and there are a lot of people who could learn to be more welcoming than they are   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 45:18 absolutely Well, I think it starts with a conversation, right? Having these conversations, a lot of people don't want to talk about mental health because they don't want to know the truth. They just want to know what society says, right, what the system say, what the services say, but they're not actually advocating for themselves. I think if we all started advocating for our mental health, we would make the impact and the change as well,   Michael Hingson ** 45:45 yeah, but we need to really, somehow develop a collective voice and Absolutely, and that's part of the problem. I know that with the world of disabilities in general, the difficulty is that, although it is probably well, it is one of the largest minorities, maybe the second largest in the world, depending on whether you want to consider women the minority. Although there are more women than men, or men the minority, the reality is that the difficulty is that there are so many different kinds of disabilities that we face and some that we don't even recognize. But the problem is that everyone totally interacts within their own disability to the point where they don't find ways to work together nearly as as much as they can. And it doesn't mean that each disability isn't unique, because they are, and that needs to be addressed, but there's a lot more power if people learn to work together   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 46:46 exactly. I'm with you, with that, Michael, because there's so many disabilities that you don't see right, that you don't hear about, somebody will talk about a new diagnosis that nobody knows about or is unaware of, like when I, when I talk about conversion disorder, a lot of people don't know about it, and I'm just like, check it out. You know, I'm a lady that actually has crazy papers, so if I go a little crazy on people, I can get away with it. I got the paper for it, right? So, but the thing is, the doctors, they they need more education as well. They need to be educated as well, not just the society, not just the public, but also the doctors that are working in those   Michael Hingson ** 47:29 fields. There's so many examples of that. You know, website access for people with disabilities is a major issue, and we don't teach in most schools, in most places where we where we have courses to instruct people on how to code, we don't really make making websites inclusive and accessible a major part of the courses of study, and so the result is that we don't tend to provide a mechanism where people shift their mindset and realize how important it is to make sure that their websites are fully inclusive to all. It's the same kind of concept. Yeah.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 48:12 Well, I think we all could learn a little bit more, right when we when we all get to this point where we we've learned everything. I think that's where society gets ignorant towards disability, right? You know, living with disability myself, Michael, I've had a lot of people say, Well, you look fine. There's nothing wrong with you. Why? Why? Why you like this? You know, why? And my answer is, why are you that way? Why are you judging something you're not seeing? You know, it's just like in grief, you don't see grief. It lives within us. You don't see abuse. The person is usually living within a home that is told what happens in the home. Stays in a home, you know, or they they try to mask it and hide the real truth, right? Yeah, and that, and that's a form of trauma as well, because we're being told to hush. So then when we start speaking, well, then we start doubting ourselves, right? The self doubt kicks in, oh, maybe I shouldn't say that, or I shouldn't do that, or I shouldn't, you know, be there. So you start to self doubt everything. I did that for many years. I self doubt why I was in a room with a bunch of people, or why I was speaking at that event, or why I wrote in that book, or and then I was just like, You know what? I am enough, and we all are enough, and we all can be seen in a different light. My   Michael Hingson ** 49:41 favorite example illustrating some of what you're talking about is that I had a phone conversation with someone once, and arranged for them to come to our apartment. I was on campus at the time, living in an on campus apartment, and the guy came out that afternoon, and I answered the door and he said, I'm looking for Michael Hinks. And I said, I'm Michael. Hanks, and his comment was, you didn't sound blind on the telephone. Now, I've never understood what it means to sound blind, but whatever. Wow. Yeah, it's, it's amazing, you know. And I was polite enough not to say, Well, you didn't sound stupid on the phone either. But yeah,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 50:22 right, that that would, that would be something I would say. Now, back in the day, I was a little mouse, now I'm a lion, and I'm just like, oh, yeah, right. Like, tap for Taft man, like,   Michael Hingson ** 50:33 Well, yeah, but there, there are ways to deal with things like that. But it, it still worked out. But it was just an amazing thing that he said, yeah,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 50:43 it surprises me what some people say. Sometimes I'm just like, Really, wow.   Michael Hingson ** 50:50 So you've done well, a lot of international speaking. Where have you traveled to speak?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 50:55 I spoke in Detroit in 2020, 20 or 2021, I can't remember the year Michael, but I spoke at the Sean fair tour, and I spoke on tea, of course, and my journey, and my story and my journey on how I'm just a different woman who wants to come to the table and make a difference. I just want to show people that if as long as we're trying, we can make a difference, as long as we're showing up, tired, broke, frustrated, we're making a difference, you know? And that's, that's my message to everybody, is just show up, just be you, and not everybody needs to like you, you know. I'm not everyone's cup of tea, and I don't want to be everyone's cup of tea.   Michael Hingson ** 51:38 Mm, hmm. You can only do and should only do what you do, yeah, but   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 51:44 And yeah. And then I'll be speaking in October. I just spoke at an event here in Cornwall, in my local area, for empowered to recovery with Jay Bernard. Bernard, and in October, I'll be speaking in North Bay for an elementary student, my sister and she actually went to school with my sister. She actually found me through my books. And she's she runs this youth group, and she'd like me to go speak to the youths on empowerment and and and the tea, of course,   Michael Hingson ** 52:16 always worth talking to kids. It's so much fun. Yeah. Yeah. And the neat thing about the most neat thing about speaking to children is there's so much more uninhibited. They're not afraid to ask questions, which is so great.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 52:32 I love questions like, I I love when I talk to people and they have some questions like, What? What is this tea that you keep talking about? And I'm just like, the tea is just the grab guys. It's just to get you hooked. It's like going fishing and catching a good fish, like, I put the hook in the water, and you all come and you join and you have a tea with me.   Michael Hingson ** 52:56 But still, children are so much more uninhibited. If, if I deliver a talk, mainly to kids, even kindergarten through sixth or seventh grade, they're much more open to asking questions. Sometimes they have to be encouraged a little bit. But boy, when the questions start, the kids just keep coming up with them, which is so great.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 53:20 Great. It's that ripple effect that first person to break the ice, to ask the first question, and then it just rolls.   Michael Hingson ** 53:26 It's a lot harder with adults to get them to to do that. Yeah, and it is. It is, even then, though, when adults start to ask questions, and the questions open up, then we get a lot of good interactions, but it is more of a challenge to get adults to open and ask questions than it is children. And it's so much fun because you never know what question a child is going to ask, which is what makes it so fun, too, because there's so much more uninhibited   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 54:01 and the imagination of a child. I love speaking like what my granddaughter, she's four, and the conversations we have about dragons and tooth fairies and and good monsters, because I don't like bad monsters, she knows grandma doesn't like bad monsters, so we talk about good monsters. And it's just the stories, the imagination, that opens up new, new ways of seeing things and seeing life. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 54:29 you've gotten a number of awards, humanitarian awards, and and other kinds of awards. Tell me a little bit about those.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 54:36 Honestly, Michael, I don't know how I got those awards. I was just being myself, and I guess a lot of people nominated me for stuff, and they were just like, you gotta check this. Miss Liz out, you know, and even some awards, I'm just like, Why me? You know, all I did was be myself. I'm grateful for them, I and I appreciate the awards. But. I don't, I don't want to be known for the awards, if that makes any sense.   Michael Hingson ** 55:03 Mm, hmm, I understand well, but you've been successful. What does success mean to you?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 55:10 Success means showing up for myself.   Michael Hingson ** 55:14 Tell me more about that.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 55:17 Of course. You know, success is different for everybody, right? Some people want the million dollars they want. They want the best seller they want. You know, they want the big business. They want the big house. For me, success is just showing up. Growing up. Nobody showed up for me. So I knew at a young age I had to show up for myself, and that was my success story. Was just showing up. There's days I really don't want to be here. I'm just tired of showing up, but I still show up tired, you know. So that's my success story, and I think that's going to be my success story until the day I die. Michael is just show up.   Michael Hingson ** 55:58 Well, there's a lot to be said for showing up, and as long as you do show up, then people get to see you, right? Yeah, which is, which is the whole point. And again, as we talked about earlier, that's the choice that you made. So you decided that you were going to show up and you were going to be you, and you also talk about it, which is, I think, extremely important, because so many people won't, not a criticism. But last year, I spoke at the Marshfield, Missouri Cherry Blossom Festival in April of 2024 and it was a and every year they hold this festival, and it's a celebration of American history. One of the people there was a secret service agent who rode in the car right behind JFK when he was assassinated, and it took him 45 years before he could talk about it. It was that traumatic for him, and he just wasn't able to move on. Eventually he was able to talk about it, and he was at the festival, as I was last year, and did speak about it. But it's it is hard, it is a major endeavor and effort to make the choice to show up, to to face whatever you have to deal with and move on from it or move on with it. I, you know, I talk about Karen, my wife passing, and I will never say I move on from Karen. I continue to move forward, but I don't want to move on. I don't want to forget her Absolutely. And there's a big difference between moving on and moving forward. I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, no, go ahead. Michael, no, that's it.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 57:45 You know, we look at life differently, right? Different perspectives and, and that's the whole thing with the T is looking at life differently. We all have a past, we all have a present, and we all have a future, right? And it's how we look at our past. Do we stay stuck in our past, like a lot of people are, mislead your in the past? No, I'm not. I speak of the past, but I'm not in the past. I'm in the present moment, and my trauma is real and it's raw, and I'm dealing with it, and I'm healing from it. And the future, I don't know where the future's taking me. I just buckle up and go for the adventure and see where it takes me. If it means writing another book or it means taking a trip or getting a job in a third world country, that's where I go. I'm, you know, moving forward from all of the trauma that I've lived through. I don't want to forget it. Mm, hmm. A lot of people like I would you change anything? No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't change a single thing.   Michael Hingson ** 58:45 There's a difference between remembering and being aware of it and being bitter and hating it. And I think that's the important part,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 58:53 yeah. And speaking of the past is not it's not a bad thing. It because the past is part of us, right? We were little kids once upon a time like there, you know, not everything was all bad. There was good moments. You know, there was more bad times for me than there was good, but there were good moments. I had good memories of spending with my grandparents on the farm and, you know, playing in the wrecked up cars and pretending I was a race car driver and stuff like that, you know, playing in the mud, making mud pies, putting them in the oven. You know, these were good memories that I have, you know, so those are what I hold on to. I hold on to the good stuff. I don't hold on to that heavy stuff.   Michael Hingson ** 59:33 Well, at least at this point, what do you see in the future for Miss Liz   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 59:39 travel? I so want to travel. I, you know, I've traveled the world, well, 72 countries, in this rocking chair. I would like to take this rocking chair in person. I would like to have a stage. I would like to have people come and talk and share their stories on a miss Liz's platform stage. That is the goal for Miss Liz.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:01 To travel and to really meet people from a lot of new and different places,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:00:07 absolutely, and meet all the guests I had on Tea Time. That is one of my goals. So when the universe gets on my good side, maybe I'll be traveling and meeting you face to face one day, Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:18 or we'll travel up there when, when we can, I know right now there are many challenges because of our governments putting roadblocks in the way. I've applied to speak at several events in Canada, and I've been told right now, well, the political situation, political situation is such that we can't really bring anybody in from the United States. And, you know, I understand that. I I think that there's so much to add, but I also understand that they don't want to take those chances, and that's fine.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:00:48 Yeah, we've been told the same, no traveling, vice versa. There's so, you know, it will calm itself down. We just got to give it some   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:57 time. It will, you know, it isn't going to go on forever, and we'll just have to deal with it. Well, if you had the opportunity to go back and give your younger Miss Liz some advice, what would it be? Drink More tea. Drink More tea of the liquid kind or the other kind.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:01:17 No. Drink the real stuff like drink, the beverage, drink the real stuff. Like, you know, speaking of tea all the time, you know, my favorite tea is jasmine tea. I wish I could drink more jasmine tea, but when I drink jasmine tea, it brings it brings back a memory of my Uma, and it it's hard for me so but drink more tea, like, actually sit down and have more conversations with OMA and see what else OMA had in   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:44 the back there for her. Yeah. Well, there you go. Well, I, I must say, I've never been a coffee drinker, but I got converted to drinking tea years ago, and I've been doing it ever since. My favorite is PG Tips, black tea, and I can get it from Amazon, so we do it.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:01:59 That's a good one too. Yeah, I'm not a real big tea drinker, but guys, I do know a little bit about tea.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:06 Well, I drink it more because it's a hot drink and it's got less calories than hot chocolate. Otherwise, I would be drinking hot chocolate all the time. But after September 11, I tend to clear my throat a lot, so drinking hot beverages helps, and I've just never liked coffee like I've learned to like tea, so I drink tea.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:02:26 Yeah. What's for you? Yeah, he's good for you. Look what it did to me. It made me who I am today.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:32 There you are in so many ways. Well, I want to than

John Reynolds, Vermont and New Hampshire State Director, National Federation of Independent Business, joins Anthony & Dan to discuss the business climate in Vermont.

Project 2025 began quietly in conservative circles, with its origins traced to a Spring 2022 gathering of strategists and operatives in Washington. By April 2023, the Heritage Foundation had unveiled the nine-hundred-plus page blueprint, branding it “Mandate for Leadership: The Conservative Promise.” The document reads less like a policy wish list and more like a regime change manual, spelling out a dramatic vision for American governance under a future conservative administration.Kevin Roberts, president of the Heritage Foundation, captured the mood in a statement: “All federal employees should answer to the president.” This encapsulates the project's signature ambition—greater centralization of executive power—rooted in what conservative legal theorists call “unitary executive theory.” According to analysis in The New York Times, this vision would go farther than any post-Nixon Republican platform by making the entire federal bureaucracy directly accountable to the president, erasing agency independence and civil service barriers that have existed for decades.The Project's approach is methodical. Its 180-day playbook details how agency heads should be replaced immediately after inauguration, with thousands of ideologically vetted appointees stepping into critical roles. The controversial Schedule F personnel policy is central: it seeks to reclassify existing civil servants, strip them of job protections, and replace large swathes with loyalists, allowing the new administration essentially unlimited power to hire and fire across government. According to the National Federation of Federal Employees, this would have unprecedented ramifications—apolitical employees, many with deep expertise, would lose their shields from political interference and could be replaced at will, upending regulatory stability.Examples of proposed reforms are as concrete as they are sweeping. The plan advocates abolishing entire agencies, including the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and the U.S. Agency for International Development. According to reporting on the current administration's implementation efforts, the Department of Government Efficiency led by Elon Musk has already moved to shut down both of those agencies, simultaneously laying off over a quarter million federal workers and contractors—27 agencies impacted in total. The chaos of rapid layoffs has led to lawsuits: NTEU President Tony Reardon stated, “For over 47 years, the law has made clear that collective bargaining in the federal sector is in the public interest. We have taken the necessary action to file a lawsuit to uphold the law and stop this attack.”On the policy side, criminal justice stands as a stark example. Project 2025 recommends that the Department of Justice intervene in local cases where it believes “rule of law deficiencies” exist, targeting prosecutors who prefer diversion programs or refuse to prosecute low-level offenses. The Brennan Center underscores that this would politicize local law enforcement and undermine prosecutorial discretion, with potentially chilling effects on criminal justice reform.Economic policy proposals include consolidating the Bureau of Economic Analysis, Census Bureau, and Bureau of Labor Statistics into a single agency—a move that critics, like Democracy Forward, warn would “kneecap the data-collection capacities” essential for planning and transparency. Project 2025 also seeks to dismantle the Economic Development Administration, which recently overseen billions in infrastructure investment and the creation of over 200,000 jobs, threatening significant disruption to federal investment in communities.Supporters argue these measures will “destroy the administrative state,” clearing away what they view as unaccountable power. Critics, from the ACLU to the Center for Progressive Reform, counter that the blueprint's methods—centralized appointment, aggressive deregulation, and sweeping personnel changes—threaten democratic checks and balances, civil rights, and the rule of law.As the country approaches pivotal elections, Project 2025 stands at a crossroads between aspiration and action. The next major milestone will arrive with the inauguration—should the conservative movement prevail, all eyes will be on the new administration's first hundred days, as the fate of agencies, public servants, and the structure of American governance hang in the balance.Thanks for tuning in, and come back next week for moreSome great Deals https://amzn.to/49SJ3QsFor more check out http://www.quietplease.ai

While I discuss often how I prepared for an emergency while working in the World Trade Center I, of course, did not anticipate anything happening that would threaten my life. However, when a major emergency occurred, I was in fact ready. I escaped and survived. Since September 11, 2001, I have met many people who in one way or another work to help others plan for emergencies. Sometimes these people are taken seriously and, all too often, they are ignored.   I never truly understood the difference between emergency preparedness and business continuity until I had the opportunity to have this episode's guest, Chris Miller, on Unstoppable Mindset. I met Chris as a result of a talk I gave in October 2024 at the conference on Resilience sponsored in London England by the Business Continuity Institute.   Chris was born and lived in Australia growing up and, in fact, still resides there. After high school she joined the police where she quickly became involved in search and rescue operations. As we learn, she came by this interest honestly as her father and grandfather also were involved in one way or another in law enforcement and search and rescue.   Over time Chris became knowledgeable and involved in training people about the concept of emergency preparedness.   Later she expanded her horizons to become more involved in business continuity. As Chris explains it, emergency preparedness is more of a macro view of keeping all people safe and emergency preparedness aware. Business Continuity is more of a topic that deals with one business at a time including preparing by customizing preparedness based on the needs of that business.   Today Chris is a much sought after consultant. She has helped many businesses, small and large, to develop continuity plans to be invoked in case of emergencies that could come from any direction.     About the Guest:   Chris has decades of experience in all aspects of emergency and risk management including enterprise risk management. For 20 years, she specialised in ‘full cycle' business continuity management, organisational resilience, facilitating simulation exercises and after-action reviews.   From January 2022 to July 2024, Chris worked as a Short-Term Consultant (STC) with the World Bank Group in Timor-Leste, the Kingdom of Eswatini (formerly Swaziland) and the South Asia Region (SAR) countries – Bhutan, Bangladesh, Nepal, India, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, and Thailand.   Other clients have ranged in size from 2 to more than 100,000 employees. She has worked with large corporates such as NewsCorp; not for profits; and governments in Australia and beyond.   Chris has received several awards for her work in business continuity and emergency management. Chris has presented at more than 100 conferences, facilitated hundreds of workshops and other training, in person and virtually. In 2023, Chris became the first woman to volunteer to become National President and chair the Board of the Australasian Institute of Emergency Services (AIES) in its soon to be 50-year history.   Ways to connect with Chris:   https://b4crisis.com.au/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrismillerb4crisis/ with 10+K followers https://x.com/B4Crisis with 1990 followers     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. . Well, hi everyone, and I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, and today, I guess we get to talk about the unexpected, because we're going to be chatting with Chris Miller. Chris is in Australia and has been very heavily involved in business continuity and emergency management, and we'll talk about all that. But what that really comes down to is that she gets to deal with helping to try to anticipate the unexpected when it comes to organizations and others in terms of dealing with emergencies and preparing for them. I have a little bit of sympathy and understanding about that myself, as you all know, because of the World Trade Center, and we got to talk about it in London last October at the Business Continuity Institute, which was kind of fun. And so we get to now talk about it some more. So Chris, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Chris Miller ** 02:22 Oh, thanks very much, Michael, and I was very impressed by your presentation, because in the emergency space, preparedness is everything that is the real return on investment. So you were wonderful case study of preparedness.   Michael Hingson ** 02:37 Well, thank you. Now I forget were you there or were you listening or watching virtually.   Chris Miller ** 02:42 I was virtual that time. I have been there in person for the events in London and elsewhere. Sometimes they're not in London, sometimes in Birmingham and other major cities, yeah, but yeah, I have actually attended in person on one occasion. So it's a long trip to go to London to go.   Michael Hingson ** 03:03 Yeah, it is. It's a little bit of a long trip, but still, it's something that, it is a subject worth talking about, needless to say,   Chris Miller ** 03:13 Absolutely, and it's one that I've been focusing on for more than 50 years.   Michael Hingson ** 03:18 Goodness, well, and emergencies have have been around for even longer, but certainly we've had our share of emergencies in the last 50 years.   Chris Miller ** 03:30 Sure have in your country and mine, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 03:34 Well, let's start maybe, as I love to do, tell us a little bit about the early Chris growing up and all that sort of stuff that's funny to talk about the early days.   Chris Miller ** 03:47 Well, I came from a family that loved the mountains, and so it was sort of natural that I would sort of grow up in the mountains close to where I was born, in Brisbane and southeast Queensland. And we have a series of what we call coastal ranges, or border ranges, between Queensland and New South Wales, which are two of the largest states in Australia. And so I spent a lot of time hunting around there. So I sort of fell into emergency management just by virtue of my parents love of the mountains and my familiarity with them and and then I joined the police, and in no time at all, I was training other people to do search and rescues. And that was me in the early days.   Michael Hingson ** 04:31 What got you involved in dealing with search and rescue?   Chris Miller ** 04:36 Oh, it was volunteer in those days. It still is now actually with the State Emergency Service, but it's sort of become more formalized. It used to be sort of, you know, friends and family and people that knew the territory would help out from somebody managed to get themselves a bit tangled up some of those coastal ranges, even to this day, I. You can't use GPS because it's rain forest, and so the rain forest canopy is so dense that you'd have to cut trees down, and it's a national park, you can't do that and or climb the tree. Good luck with that one. You still can't get satellite coverage, so you actually have to know the country. But what?   Michael Hingson ** 05:24 What caused you to actually decide to take that up or volunteer to do that? That's, you know, pretty, pretty interesting, I would think, but certainly something that most people don't tend to do.   Chris Miller ** 05:38 Well, my family's interest in there. My parents have always been very community minded, so, you know, and it's the Australian way, if someone needs help and you can help, you throw them do so,   Michael Hingson ** 05:51 okay, that makes sense. So you joined the police, and you got very much involved in in dealing with search and rescue. And I would presume, knowing you, that you became pretty much an expert in it as much as one can.   Chris Miller ** 06:06 Oh, well, I wouldn't be so reckless as to say experts, because there's always so much to learn. And, yeah, and the systems keep changing. I mean, with GPS and and, for instance, in the early days of search and rescue helicopters were a rare treat. Now they're sort of part of the fabric of things. And now there's drones, and there's all sorts of high tech solutions that have come into the field in the lengthy time that I've been involved in. It's certainly not just ramping around the bush and hoping to find someone it's a lot more complex, but   Michael Hingson ** 06:41 as you but as you pointed out, there are still places where all the tech in the world isn't necessarily going to help. Is it   Chris Miller ** 06:52 exactly and interestingly, my mother in her teenage years, was involved with a fellow called Bernard O'Reilly, and he did a fantastic rescue of a plane crash survivors and and he he claimed that he saw a burnt tree in the distance. Well, I've stood on the Rift Valley where he claimed to see the burnt tree, and, my goodness, he's also it must have been better than mine, because it's a long way, but he was a great believer in God, and he believed that God led him to these people, and he saved them. And it's fascinating to see how many people, over the years, have done these amazing things. And Bernard was a very low key sort of fellow, never one to sort of see publicity, even though he got more than He probably wanted. And they've been television series and movies and, goodness knows, books, many books written about this amazing rescue. So I sort of grew up with these stories of these amazing rescues. And my father came from Tasmania, where his best friend David ended up mountain rescue. So I sort of was born into it. It was probably in my genes, and it just no escaping   Michael Hingson ** 08:12 you came into it naturally, needless to say, so that just out of curiosity, you can answer or not. But where does all of this put you in terms of believing in God,   Chris Miller ** 08:25 oh, well, there's probably been points in my life where I've been more of a believer than ever.   Michael Hingson ** 08:33 Yeah. Well, there. There are a lot of things that happen that often times we we seem not to be able to explain, and we we chalk it up to God's providence. So I suppose you can take that as you will. I've talked about it before on unstoppable mindset, but one of my favorite stories of the World Trade Center on September 11 was a woman who normally got up at seven every morning. She got up, got dressed, went to the World Trade Center where she worked. I forget what floor she was on, but she was above where the planes would have hit, and did hit. But on this particular day, for some reason, she didn't set her alarm to go off at 7am she set it accidentally to go off at 7pm so she didn't get up in time, and she survived and wasn't in the World Trade Center at all. So what was that? You know, they're just so many stories like that, and it, it certainly is a reason to keep an open mind about things nevertheless,   Chris Miller ** 09:39 well, and I've also worked with a lot of Aboriginal people and with the World Bank, with with other people that have, perhaps beliefs that are different to what we might consider more traditional beliefs in Western society. And it's interesting how their spirituality their belief system. Yeah. Has often guided them too soon.   Michael Hingson ** 10:03 Well, there's, there's something to be said for that. Needless to say, well, so you, did you go to college? Or did you go out of whatever high school type things and then go into the police? Or what?   Chris Miller ** 10:18 Um, yes, I joined the police from high school, I completed my high school graduation, as you call it in America, police academy, where in Brisbane, Oxley and then the Queensland Police Academy, and subsequent to that, I went to university part time while I was a police officer, and graduated and so on and so   Michael Hingson ** 10:41 on. So you eventually did get a college degree.   10:45 True, okay,   Michael Hingson ** 10:48 well, but you were also working, so that must have been pretty satisfying to do,   Chris Miller ** 10:55 but, but it was tricky to especially when you're on shift work trying to going to excuse me, study and and hold on a more than full time job?   Michael Hingson ** 11:09 Yeah, had to be a challenge. It was,   Chris Miller ** 11:13 but it was worth it and, and I often think about my degree and the learnings I did psychology and sociology and then how it I often think a university degree isn't so much the content, it's it's the discipline and the and the analysis and research and all the skills that you Get as part of the the process. It's important.   Michael Hingson ** 11:42 Yeah, I agree. I think that a good part of what you do in college is you learn all about analysis, you learn about research, you learn about some of these things which are not necessarily talked about a lot, but if you you do what you're supposed to do. Well those are, are certainly traits that you learn and things that you you develop in the way of tools that can help you once you graduate,   Chris Miller ** 12:13 absolutely and continue to be valuable and and this was sort of reinforced in the years when I was post graduate at the University of Queensland, and was, was one of the representatives on the arts faculty board, where we spend a lot of time actually thinking about, you know, what is education? What are we trying to achieve here? Not just be a degree factory, but what are we actually trying to share with the students to make them better citizens and contribute in various ways.   Michael Hingson ** 12:50 Yeah, I know that last year, I was inducted as an alumni member of the Honor Society, phi, beta, kappa, and I was also asked to deliver the keynote speech at the induction dinner for all of the the students and me who were inducted into phi, Beta Kappa last June. And one of the things that I talked about was something that I've held dear for a long time, ever since I was in college, a number of my professors in physics said to all of us, one of the things that you really need to do is to pay attention to details. It isn't enough to get the numeric mathematical answer correct. You have to do things like get the units correct. So for example, if you're talking about acceleration, you need to make sure that it comes out meters per second squared. It isn't just getting a number, but you've got to have the units and other things that that you deal with. You have to pay attention to the details. And frankly, that has always been something that has stuck with me. I don't, and I'm sure that it does with other people, but it's always been something that I held dear, and I talked about that because that was one of the most important things that I learned out of college, and it is one of the most important things that helped me survive on September 11, because it is all about paying attention to the details and really learning what you can about whatever you need to learn, and making sure that you you have all the information, and you get all the information that you can   Chris Miller ** 14:34 absolutely and in the emergency space, it's it's learning from what's happened and right, even Though many of the emergencies that we deal with, sadly, people die or get badly injured or significant harm to their lives, lifestyle and economy and so on, I often think that the return for them is that we learn to do better next. Time that we capture the lessons and we take them from just lessons identified to lessons learned, where we make real, significant changes about how we do things. And you've spoken often about 911 and of course, in Australia, we've been more than passingly interested in what the hell happened there. Yeah, in terms of emergency management too, because, as I understand it, you had 20, 479, months of fire fighting in the tunnels. And of course, we've thought a lot about that. In Australia, we have multi story buildings in some of our major cities. What if some unpleasant people decided to bring some of them down? They would be on top of some of our important infrastructure, such as Metro tunnels and so on. Could we manage to do 20, 479, months of fire fighting, and how would that work? Do we have the resources? How could we deploy people to make that possible? So even when it isn't in your own country, you're learning from other people, from agencies, to prepare your country and your situation in a state of readiness. Should something unpleasant   Michael Hingson ** 16:16 happen? I wonder, speaking of tunnels, that's just popped into my head. So I'll ask it. I wonder about, you know, we have this war in the Middle East, the Israeli Hamas war. What have we learned about or from all of the tunnels that Hamas has dug in in Gaza and so on? What? What does all that teach us regarding emergency preparedness and so on, or does it   Chris Miller ** 16:46 presently teaches us a lot about military preparedness. And you know, your your enemy suddenly, suddenly popping up out of the out of the under underground to take you on, as they've been doing with the idea as I understand it,   Michael Hingson ** 17:03 yeah. But also,   Chris Miller ** 17:06 you know, simplistic solutions, like some people said, Well, why don't you just flood the tunnels and that'll deal with them. Except the small problem is, if you did that, you would actually make the land unlivable for many years because of salination. So it just raises the questions that there are no simple solutions to these challenging problems in defense and emergency management. And back to your point about detail, you need to think about all your options very carefully. And one of the things that I often do with senior people is beware of one track thinking. There is no one solution to any number of emergencies. You should be thinking as broadly as possible and bringing bringing in the pluses and minuses of each of those solutions before you make fairly drastic choices that could have long term consequences, you know, like the example of the possible flooding of the tunnel, sounds like a simple idea and has some appeal, but there's lots of downsides to   Michael Hingson ** 18:10 much less, the fact that there might very well be people down there that you don't want to see, perishes,   Chris Miller ** 18:20 yeah, return to their families. I'm sure they'd like that. And there may be other people, I understand that they've been running medical facilities and doing all sorts of clever things in the tunnel. And those people are not combatants. They're actually trying to help you, right?   Michael Hingson ** 18:37 Yeah, so it is one of those things that really points out that no solutions are necessarily easy at all, and we need to think pretty carefully about what we do, because otherwise there could be a lot of serious problems. And you're right   Chris Miller ** 18:55 exactly, and there's a lot of hard choices and often made hastily in emergency management, and this is one of the reasons why I've been a big defender of the recovery elements being involved in emergency management. You need to recovery people in the response activities too, because sometimes some of the choices you make in response might seem wonderful at the time, but are absolutely devastating in the recovery space, right?   Michael Hingson ** 19:25 Do you find that when you're in an emergency situation that you are afraid, or are you not afraid? Or have you just learned to control fear, and I don't mean just in a in a negative way, but have you learned to control sphere so that you use it as a tool, as opposed to it just overwhelming you.   Chris Miller ** 19:49 Yeah, sometimes the fee sort of kicks in afterwards, because often in the actual heat of the moment, you're so focused on on dealing with the problem. Problem that you really don't have time to be scared about it. Just have to deal with it and get on to next problem, because they're usually coming at you in a in a pretty tsunami like why? If it's a major incident, you've got a lot happening very quickly, and decisions need to be made quickly and often with less of the facts and you'd like to have at your fingertips to make some fairly life changing decisions for some people. But I would think what in quite tricky,   Michael Hingson ** 20:33 yeah, but I would think what that means is that you learn to control fear and not let it overwhelm you, but you learn that, yeah, it's there, but you use it to aid you, and you use it to help move you to make the decisions as best you can, as opposed to not being able to make decisions because you're too fearful,   Chris Miller ** 21:00 right? And decision paralysis can be a real issue. I remember undertaking an exercise some years back where a quite senior person called me into his office when it was over, was just tabletop, and he said, I'm not it. And I went. He said, I'm not really a crisis manager. I'm good in a business as usual situation where I have all the facts before me, and usually my staff have had weeks, months to prepare a detailed brief, provide me with options and recommendations I make a sensible decision, so I'm not really good on the fly. This is not me and and that's what we've been exercising. Was a senior team making decisions rather quickly, and he was mature enough person to realize that that wasn't really his skill set,   Michael Hingson ** 21:55 his skill set, but he said,   Chris Miller ** 21:59 he said, but I've got a solution. Oh, good, my head of property. Now, in many of the businesses I've worked with, the head of property, it HR, work, health and safety, security, all sorts of things go wrong in their day. You know, they can, they can come to the office and they think they're going to do, you know, this my to do list, and then all of a sudden, some new problem appears that they must deal with immediately. So they're often really good at dealing with whatever the hell today's crisis is. Now, it may not be enough to activate business continuity plan, but it's what I call elasticity of your business as usual. So you think you're going to be doing X, but you're doing x plus y, because something's happened, right? And you just reach out and deal with it. And those people do that almost on a daily basis, particularly if it's a large business. For instance, I worked with one business that had 155 locations in Australia? Well, chances are something will go wrong in one of those 155 locations in any given day. So the property manager will be really good at dealing, reaching out and dealing with whatever that problem is. So this, this senior colleague said, Look, you should make my property manager the chair of this group, and I will hand over delegations and be available, you know, for advice. But he should leave it because he's very good on the fly. He does that every day. He's very well trained in it by virtue of his business as usual, elasticity, smart move. And   Michael Hingson ** 23:45 it worked out,   Chris Miller ** 23:47 yes, yeah, we exercised subsequently. And it did work because he started off by explaining to his colleagues his position, that the head of property would step up to the plate and take over some more senior responsibilities during a significant emergency.   Michael Hingson ** 24:06 Okay, so how long were you with the police, and what did you do after that?   Chris Miller ** 24:17 With the police at nearly 17 years in Queensland, I had a period of operational work in traffic. I came from family of motorcycle and car racing type people, so yeah, it was a bit amusing that I should find my way there. And it actually worked out while I was studying too, because I had a bit of flexibility in terms of my shift rostery. And then when I started my masters, excuse me, my first masters, I sort of got too educated, so I had to be taken off operational policing and put the commissioner office. Hmm.   Michael Hingson ** 25:01 And what did you do there the commissioner's office?   Chris Miller ** 25:05 Yes. So I was much more involved in strategic planning and corporate planning and a whole lot of other moves which made the transition from policing actually quite easy, because I'd been much more involved in the corporate stuff rather than the operational stuff, and it was a hard transition. I remember when I first came out of operational policing into the commissioner's office. God, this is so dull.   Michael Hingson ** 25:32 Yeah, sitting behind a desk. It's not the same,   Chris Miller ** 25:37 not the same at all. But when I moved from policing into more traditional public service roles. I had the sort of requisite corporate skills because of those couple of years in the commission itself.   Michael Hingson ** 25:51 So when you Well, what caused you to leave the police and where did you go?   Chris Miller ** 25:59 Well, interestingly, when I joined, I was planning to leave. I sort of had three goals. One was get a degree leave at 30 some other thing, I left at 32 and I was head hunted to become the first female Workplace Health and Safety Inspector in Queensland, and at the time, my first and now late husband was very unwell, and I was working enormous hours, and I was offered a job with shorter hours and more money and a great opportunity. So I took it,   Michael Hingson ** 26:36 which gave you a little bit more time with family and him, exactly. So that was, was that in an emergency management related field,   Chris Miller ** 26:48 workplace health and safety, it can be emergencies, yeah? Well, hopefully not, yeah, because in the Workplace Health and Safety space, we would like people to prepare so there aren't emergency right? Well, from time to time, there are and and so I came in, what happened was we had a new act in Queensland, New Work, Health and Safety Act prior to the new Act, the police, fire and other emergency service personnel were statutory excluded from work health and safety provisions under the law in Queensland, the logic being their job was too dangerous. How on earth could you make it safe? And then we had a new government came in that wanted to include police and emergency services somehow or other. And I sort of became, by default, the Work Health and Safety Advisor for the Queensland Police at the time. There was no such position then, but somebody had to do it, and I was in the commissioner's office and showed a bit of interest that you can do that.   Michael Hingson ** 28:01 It's in the training,   Chris Miller ** 28:03 hmm, and, and I remember a particularly pivotal meeting where I had to be face the Deputy Commissioner about whether police would be in or out of that legislation, because they had to advise the government whether it's actually possible to to include police.   Michael Hingson ** 28:28 So what did you advise?   Chris Miller ** 28:31 Well, I gave him the pluses and minuses because whatever we decided it was going to be expensive, yeah, if we said no, politically, it was bad news, because we had a government that wanted us to say yes, and if we said yes, it was going to cost a lot of money make it happen.   Michael Hingson ** 28:49 What finally happened? Yes one, yes one, well, yeah, the government got its way. Do you think that made sense to do that was Yes, right.   Chris Miller ** 29:03 It always was. It always was right, because it was just nonsense that   Michael Hingson ** 29:11 police aren't included   Chris Miller ** 29:14 to exclude, because not every function of policing is naturally hazardous, some of it is quite right going forward and can be made safe, right, and even the more hazardous functions, such as dealing with armed offenders, it can be made safer. There are ways of protecting your police or increasing their bulletproof attire and various other pieces of training and procedures soon even possible.   Michael Hingson ** 29:51 But also part of that is that by training police and bringing them into it, you make them more. Which also has to be a positive in the whole process,   Chris Miller ** 30:05 absolutely, and I did quite a lot of work with our some people used to call them the black pajamas. They were our top of the range people that would deal with the most unpleasant customers. And they would train with our military in Australia, our counter terrorism people are trained with the military. The police and military train together because that expands our force capability. If something really disagreeable happens, so   Michael Hingson ** 30:42 it's got to start somewhere. So when, so all this wasn't necessarily directly related to emergency management, although you did a lot to prepare. When did you actually go into emergency management as a field?   Chris Miller ** 31:01 Oh, well. So I was involved in response when I was talking about rescue, search and rescue, and then increasingly, I became involved in exercising and planning, writing, procedures, training, all that, getting ready stuff, and then a lot more work in terms of debriefing, so observing the crisis centers and seeing if there could be some fine tuning even during the event, but also debriefing. So what did we actually learn? What do we do? Well, what might be do better next time? Well, there's some insights that the people that were most involved might have picked up as a result of this latest incident, whatever that might have been.   Michael Hingson ** 31:58 And so when you so where did you end up, where you actually were formally in the emergency management field?   Chris Miller ** 32:07 Well, emergency management is quite a broad field. Yeah, it's preparedness right through to response and recovery and everything in between. And so I've had involvement in all of that over the years. So from preparing with training and exercising right through to it's happening. You're hanging off the helicopter skids and so on.   Michael Hingson ** 32:34 So did you do this? Working   Chris Miller ** 32:36 it come back from you with a bit of a call. Oh, sorry. When through to response and recovery. You know, how are we going to respond? What are our options? What are our assets through to recovery, which is usually a long tail. So for instance, if it's a flood of fire or zone, it'll take a very long time to recover. You know, 911 you didn't rebuild towers and and rebuild that area quickly. It took years to put things back together again. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 33:11 the only thing about it is One can only hope that was we put things back together, and as we move forward, we also remember the lessons that we should learn from what happened in the past, absolutely, and I'm not sure that that always happens   Chris Miller ** 33:31 true, and that's why I often get a bit annoyed when I hear particularly politicians talk about lessons learned very hastily after The event. You know they say we will learn the lessons from this or that. No, don't you think? Because for those of us involved in the debriefing and lessons management space, we know that that you have observations, insights, lessons identified, but they're not learned, usually, until some considerable period thereafter when you make the necessary changes to training procedures, whatever it might be, so that those those learnings are embedded in the way forward.   Michael Hingson ** 34:18 Yeah, and not everybody learns the lessons who should learn the lessons, and they don't always listen to the people who really do understand. But you can only do what you can do as well. Well,   Chris Miller ** 34:34 we're trying to structure more of that with lessons management so that it's a lot less hit and miss. I mean, when I first came into emergency management, it was much more, much more, a sort of learning on the job, sometimes learning bad habits from people, and then gradually, hopefully and. Setting aside the bad habits and getting into the good habits. Now you can do a masters and PhDs in disaster management, thank goodness, so that we become much more sophisticated in terms of our evidence base and our research and our understanding. And as I said, this crossover so we learned a lot from what happened with 911 that might be applicable here in Australia, should something unpleasant in their larger cities happen too? So we learn from each other. It isn't a static environment, it's very much a fluid environment, and one that's moving forward. I'm happy to report.   Michael Hingson ** 35:40 Well, that's important that it moves forward and that we learn from what has happened now, of course, we have all sorts of things going on over here with air traffic controllers and losing communications and all sorts of other things that once again, causes people to need to learn how to very quickly react and make strong decisions and not panic with what's going on. I heard on the news this morning about somebody who saw two aircraft that were about to collide, and he was able to get them to divert so that they didn't hit each other, but radar hadn't detected it. So, you know, they're just the people are very resilient when they when they learn and understand what they need to do.   Chris Miller ** 36:34 And I've had the honor of working with air traffic controllers and doing some exercises with them. They're actually amazing people for a number of reasons. One is the stress levels of their job is just beyond belief. But two is they actually have to think in 3d so they've got their radar screens, which are 2d and they actually have to think in 3d which is a really rare and amazing skill. It's like a great sculptor. Yeah, in Europe, I've seen some wonderful sculpture, they actually have to think in 3d in terms of the positioning of their aircraft and how to deal with them. It's a it's a great set of skills, so never to be underestimated. And of course, it raises the question of aging infrastructure and an aging workforce too, something that in a lot of countries, yours and mine, it seems that we've been quite neglectful about legacy systems that we have not upgraded, and about the aging workforce that we have not invested enough effort in terms of bringing new people into the system so that, as our our long time warriors want to retire, and they're entitled to that can leave and Knowing that there will be more useful replacements.   Michael Hingson ** 38:04 I flew last week, and actually for one of my flights, sat next to an air traffic controller who was going to a meeting, which was fascinating. And same point was made that a lot of the infrastructure is anywhere from 25 to 50 years old, and it shouldn't be. It's so amazing that I would, I guess I would say our politicians, even though they've been warned so many times, won't really deal with upgrading the equipment. And I think enough is starting to happen. Maybe they will have to do it because too much is failing, but we'll see and to   Chris Miller ** 38:42 worry when people are doing things that are so important hastily. And interestingly, when I was exercising Sydney air traffic controllers, I usually got a glimpse of a new high tech solution that they were in the process of testing, which was going to put more cameras and more capability around the airfield than they'd ever had before, even though they're sitting in an $80 million tower that would be built for them with Australian tax dollars, but trying to get the system even more sophisticated, more responsive, because the flight levels coming in and out of Sydney continue to grow. 90% of Australians air traffic goes in and out of Sydney at some point in the day, yeah. So they're very busy there, and how can we provide systems that will support the capacity to do better for us and continue to maintain our sales flows?   Michael Hingson ** 39:50 So we met kind of through the whole issue of the business continuity Institute conference last year. What's the difference between emergency. Management and business continuity management   Chris Miller ** 40:03 interesting when I came out of emergency management, so things like the Bali bombings, the Indian Ocean tsunami and so on and so on. A deputy in the Department of Social Security where I used to work, said, oh, we need a business continuity manager. And I said, What's that? Yeah, excuse me, Hey, what's that? Well, I quickly learned it's basically a matter of scale. So I used to be in the business in emergencies, of focusing on the country, united, counter terrorism, all the significant parts of the country, blood, fire and so on, to one business at a time. So the basics of business, of emergency management, come across very neatly to business continuity. You're still preparing and responding and recovering, just on a smaller scale,   Michael Hingson ** 41:08 because you're dealing with a particular business at a time true, whereas emergency management is really dealing with it across the board.   Chris Miller ** 41:19 We can be the whole country, yeah, depending on what it is that you do in the emergency management space or a significant part of the country,   Michael Hingson ** 41:29 when did you kind of transition from emergency management and emergency preparedness on a on a larger scale to the whole arena of business continuity?   Chris Miller ** 41:40 Well, I still keep a foot in both camps. Actually, I keep, I keep boomeranging between them. It depends on what my clients want. Since I'm a consultant now, I move between both spaces.   Michael Hingson ** 41:57 When did you decide to be a consultant as opposed to working for our particular organization   Chris Miller ** 42:04 or the I was a bit burnt out, so I was happy to take a voluntary redundancy from the government and in my consultancy practice   Michael Hingson ** 42:12 from there, when did that start?   Chris Miller ** 42:16 October of 10.   Michael Hingson ** 42:18 October of 2010, yep. Okay, so you've been doing it for almost 15 years, 14 and a half years. Do you like consulting?   Chris Miller ** 42:29 Yeah, I do, because I get to work program people who actually want to have me on board. Sometimes when you work as a public servant in these faces. Yeah, you're not seen as an asset. You're a bit of an annoyance. When people are paying you as a consultant, they actually want you to be there,   Michael Hingson ** 42:55 yeah? Which? Which counts for something, because then you know that you're, you're going to be more valued, or at least that's the hope that you'll be more valued, because they really wanted to bring you in. They recognize what you what you brought to the table as it were.   Chris Miller ** 43:12 Yes, um, no, that's not to say that they always take your recommendations. Yeah. And I would learn to just, you know, provide my report and see what happens.   Michael Hingson ** 43:24 So was it an easy transition to go into the whole arena of business continuity, and then, better yet, was it an easy I gather it was probably an easy transition to go off and become a consultant rather than working as you had been before?   Chris Miller ** 43:39 Well, the hours are shorter and the pain is better.   Michael Hingson ** 43:41 There you are. That helps.   Chris Miller ** 43:48 Tell me if you would a lot more flexibility and control over my life that I didn't have when I was a full time public servant.   Michael Hingson ** 43:55 Yeah, yeah. And that that, of course, counts for a lot, and you get to exercise more of your entrepreneurial spirit, yes, but   Chris Miller ** 44:09 I think one of the things is I've often seen myself as very expensive public asset. The Australian taxpayer has missed a lot of time and effort in my training over very many years. Now they're starting to see some of the return on that investment   Michael Hingson ** 44:25 Well, and that's part of it. And the reality is, you've learned a lot that you're able to put to you, so you bring a lot of expertise to what you do, which also helps explain why you feel that it's important to earn a decent salary and or a decent consulting fee. And if you don't and people want to just talk you down and not pay you very much, that has its own set of problems, because then you wonder how much they really value what you what you bring.   Chris Miller ** 44:55 Yes. And so now i. Through the World Bank and my international consultancy work, I'm sharing some of those experiences internationally as well.   Michael Hingson ** 45:11 So you mentioned the World Bank, who are some of your clients, the people that you've worked with, the   Chris Miller ** 45:18 World Bank doesn't like you talking too much about what you do?   Michael Hingson ** 45:20 Yeah, that's, I was wondering more, what are some of the organizations you worked with, as opposed to giving away secrets of what you   Chris Miller ** 45:31 do? Well, for the wellbeing club, basically worked in the health sector in Africa and in APAC, okay, and that's involved working with Ministries of Health, you know, trying to get them in a better state of preparing this, get their plans and better shape, get them exercising those plans and all that kind of important stuff, stuff that we kind of take for granted in Our countries, in yours well, with FEMA, although, what's left of FEMA now? Yeah, but also in my own country, you know, we're planning and exercising and lessons management and all these things are just considered, you know, normal operations when you're talking to low and middle income countries. And no, that isn't normal operations. It's something that is still learning, and you have the honor to work with them and bring them into that sort of global fold about how these things are done.   Michael Hingson ** 46:35 Well, you worked in some pretty far away and and relatively poor countries and so on. I assume that was a little bit different than working in what some people might call the more developed countries. You probably had to do more educating and more awareness raising, also,   Chris Miller ** 46:55 yes and no. The African country I worked in a lot of these people had studied at Harvard and some of your better universities. But what I noticed was, as brilliant as those people were, and as well trained and educated, there weren't enough of them. And that was one of the real problems, is, is trying to expand the workforce with the necessary skills in emergency management or whatever else you might be trying to do pandemic preparedness or something. Don't have enough people on the ground in those countries that have the necessary skills and experience.   Michael Hingson ** 47:44 Were you able to help change that?   Chris Miller ** 47:48 Yeah, we set up some training programs, and hopefully some of those continue beyond our time with them.   Michael Hingson ** 47:58 So again, it is some awareness raising and getting people to buy into the concepts, which some will and some won't. I remember while at the Business Continuity Institute, one of the people said the thing about the people who attend the conference is they're the what if people, and they're always tasked with, well, what if this happens? What if that happens? But nobody listens to them until there's really an emergency, and then, of course, they're in high demand. Which, which I can understand.   Chris Miller ** 48:33 That's why you want exercises, because it raises awareness so that, so that the what if, the business continuity people are thinking that emergency managers are a bit more front of mind for some of the senior people, it's less of a surprise when something unpleasant happens. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 48:56 Well, how is the whole concept and the whole structure or theory of emergency management, changed. You've been involved in this a long time. So how has it evolved and changed over the years?   Chris Miller ** 49:10 Much more education, formal education, not learning on the job, actually going to university and learning properly, but much more evidence based, much more structured lessons management, much more technology. There's so many changes, at least to be very long.   Michael Hingson ** 49:31 Does AI come into play in emergency management? Yet,   Chris Miller ** 49:37 I think it's coming in. More and more we're using it for prediction of fire behavior and all sorts of things now,   Michael Hingson ** 49:47 yeah, and that, and that makes sense, that we're, we're starting to see where the whole technology and the whole ability to monitor so many things. Can tell us there's a fire starting or something is happening a lot more quickly than we used to be able to do it. I'm not sure that we're there yet with earthquakes, but even with earthquakes, we're getting warnings a little bit more quickly than we used to. We had an earthquake here in Southern California a couple of weeks ago, and I forget exactly, but it was a number of seconds that people had some decent warnings. So by the time it was analyzed and determined that there was going to be an earthquake, there was still time to issue a warning that alerted people, because she still had to react pretty quickly if you wanted to take advantage of it. But I think that we're only going to see more and more technological changes that will help the process be better,   Chris Miller ** 50:55 absolutely. And one of the big problems that we're having is a lot of our previous sort of fire mapping, fire behavior, flood mapping is out of date very quickly, because of development and climate change and all sorts of factors, previous behaviors are not actually a very good model, but an AI permits us to do things faster.   Michael Hingson ** 51:24 Yeah, we're going to have to just continue, certainly to encourage it. And again, it's one of those areas where the reality is all of the skills that we and tools that we can bring to the to the process are absolutely appropriate to do, because otherwise we just either take a step backward or we don't progress at all   Chris Miller ** 51:49 well. And to give you another example, um, Life Savers, New South Wales lifesavers. Here, I run the largest grain fleet in the country now for a long time, life saving used to be sort of volunteers, and in pretty old tech, not anymore, oh boy. And they're even looking at things like deploying life saving devices off their drones as they get bigger and smarter and heavier lifting to be able to drop things to people in distress. We're using it for shark netting, whereas we used to take a boat out and check the shark nets, now we can send the drones out, and then if you need to send the boat out, you're not wasting a lot of money chugging up and down in your boat. So there's all sorts of savings and adjustments in this space, in technology with AI and all sorts of other fancy devices like drones,   Michael Hingson ** 52:54 how about emergency management and so on, in terms of dealing with different kinds of people, like people with disabilities, people who are blind or deaf or hard of hearing, maybe heavy people, people who are in the autism spectrum and so on has emerged. Have emergency managers gotten better at dealing with different kinds of disabilities? How much real awareness raising and understanding has gone into all of that   Chris Miller ** 53:26 well. Towards the end of last year, there was a big package of work done by EMA Emergency Management Australia, being conducted in conjunction with AD the Australian Institute of disaster resiliency, and that's in the disability space and the whole lot of that's rolling out in workshops all over the country to try and do even better. Yes, it's still a weakness, I would have to agree, and we still need to do a whole lot better in that whole space of some of those vulnerable groups that you mentioned, and hopefully some of this important initiative that's sponsored by the government and will help raise awareness and improve response activities in the future.   Michael Hingson ** 54:15 I would also point out, and it's, of course, all about training to a degree, because, you know, people say, well, blind people can't do this, for example, or they can't do that. And the reality is, blind people can, if they're trained, if they gain self confidence, if they're given and put it in an environment where they're able to be given confidence to do things. The reality is, blindness isn't the challenge that most sighted people would believe it to be, but at the same time, I think that one of the biggest things, and I saw it on September 11, one of the biggest things, is information, or lack of information. I asked several times what was going on, and no one who clearly had to know. Who would say what was occurring. And I understand some of that because they they didn't know whether I would just panic because they said airplanes had deliberately been crashed into the towers or not. But also, I know that there was also a part of it, which was, when you're blind, you can't deal with any of that. We're not going to tell you, we don't have time to tell you. Information, to me, is the most important thing that you can provide, but I but I do appreciate there. There are two sides to it, but it is also important to recognize that, with a lot of people who happen to have different kinds of disabilities, providing information may very well be an enhancement to their circumstances, because they can make decisions and do things that they might not otherwise have been able to do. Well,   Chris Miller ** 55:50 it was certainly the case for you, because you had information and you had preparedness before 911 right? You were able to respond in more effective ways because you knew what was what. And we certainly saw that in covid, for instance, even things like translating information into different languages. In Australia, we have people from, I think the last census, 170 countries, they don't all speak English as their first language. And having worked with Aboriginal people for eight years, quite specifically, one of my dear friends, English was her sixth language.   Michael Hingson ** 56:32 But at the same time,   Chris Miller ** 56:33 go ahead, yeah, and yet we keep putting information out in all that well, no, we need to do much better in the language phase, in the preparedness space of people with all sorts of challenges. We need to reach out to those people so that as you were prepared for 911 and you knew where the fire escapes were, and this and that really paid benefits on the day that we've done that, that we've taken reasonable steps to prepare everyone in the community, not just the English speakers or the this or that, right? All people get the chance to understand their situation and prepare apparently,   Michael Hingson ** 57:22 I know that if I had had more information about what had occurred, I may very well have decided to travel a different way to leave or after leaving the tower and the building. I might have gone a different way, rather than essentially walking very much toward tower two and being very close to it when it collapsed. But I didn't have that information because they wouldn't provide that. So not helpful. Yeah, so things, things do happen. So I'm sure that along the way you've had funny experiences in terms of dealing with emergencies and emergency management. What's the funniest kind of thing that you ever ran into? I'll   Chris Miller ** 58:08 come back to the old packers, but just quickly, that whole crisis communication space is also a big development in emergency management. Yeah, a long time we kind of kept the information to ourselves, but we realize that knowledge is power. We need to get it out there to people. So we do a lot more with alerts on the phones and all sorts of clever things now, right? Funny things? Well, there's so many of those, which one probably most recently is the dreaded alpacas where I live now, as you see, well, as some people who might see the video of this, I live by the beach, which is pretty common for a lot of Australians. Anyway, we have had fires up in in a nice valley called kangaroo Valley. Then a lot of people that live there are sort of small farmlets. There are some dairy farms and people that are more scale farmers, but other people just have a small plot, excuse me, maybe a couple of horses or something or other. And and then when we had fires up there a few years back, we set up emergency evacuation centers for them, and we set them up for dogs and cats and small animals, and we had facility for horses at the nearby race grounds and so on. But we weren't expecting our hackers and alpacas are actually quite big, and they spit and do other things quite under manage. So I remember we rang up the race course manager and we said, we've got alpacas. What you got? What I. I said, Well, they're sort of about the size of a horse. He said, Yes, yes, but we know what to do with horses. We know what the hell to do without Yes. Anyway, eventually we moved the alpacas to horse stables and kept them away from the horses because we weren't sure how to do and interact. Yeah. And the owner of these alpacas was so attached to her animals that she she insisted on sleeping in her Carney her alpacas. And some people are very attached to their animals, even if they're a little on the large side. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:37 Well, I know during the fires that we had here in Southern California back in January, there were a number of people who had horses and were very concerned about evacuating them, and, of course, other animals as well. But the horses especially were were dealt with, and they had emergency well, they had places to take them if they could get the horses out. I don't know whether we lost horses or how many we lost during all the big fires, but yeah,   Chris Miller ** 1:01:10 I'm serious far as new Canberra, which is my city of residence for many years, and what happened? I decision. What happened was, quite often, the men were all fighting the fires, and the women were left with with smoke affected horses. Oh, and they were trying to get them onto the horse flight. Now, as we quickly discovered, horses are pretty smart, and they're not keen on being near fires. They don't want to be there, right? So they become quite a challenge to me. And to put a horse float onto your vehicle is no easy thing when you've never done it before and you're trying to do it in a crisis. So when all that was over, one of the lessons that we did learn was we arranged to have a sort of open day at the near, nearby race course. We've actually taught people to put the trailer on the back of the vehicle, to deal with a fractious horse, to sort of cover its face or protect it from the smoke and do all sorts of helpful things. So sometimes, when we get it wrong, we do learn and make some important improvements like it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:32 What's the kind of most important advice you would give to somebody who's new in emergency management or interested in going into the field   Chris Miller ** 1:02:42 and sign up for a good course, do a bachelor or master's degree in emergency management, because not only will you learn from your instructors, you'll learn from your colleagues, and this is a networking business,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:56 yeah. Well, I want to Oh, have you? I haven't asked you. Have you written any books? No, you haven't okay? Because if you had, I'd ask you to send me book covers so that we could put them in the show notes. Well, there's something for you to look at in the near future. You could learn to be an author and add that to your skill repertoire. I want to thank you for being Yeah. Well, there is always that right, too many emergencies to manage. Well, Chris, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening and being with us today. I hope that this has been helpful and interesting and educational. I found it so I'd love to hear your thoughts, and I'm sure Chris would as well. Chris, how can people maybe reach out to you if they'd like to do. So,   Chris Miller ** 1:03:42 yeah, sure. LinkedIn is a good way to find me, and I've given you all those details. So   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:49 go ahead and say your LinkedIn name anyway.   Chris Miller ** 1:03:53 Good question. Yeah, it's before cross. This is my business   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:58 name before being the number four crisis. That's it.   Chris Miller ** 1:04:03 My LinkedIn name is,   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:08 says before   Chris Miller ** 1:04:09 process, yeah, and your email is going to be full process on LinkedIn.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:16 Chris Miller at before before crisis, and email is number four process. And in email, it's before, no, it's, it's Chris Miller, before crisis, again, isn't   Chris Miller ** 1:04:30 it? It's Chris at default process, Chris at before crisis.com.au,   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:35 yeah, okay, memorizing the   Chris Miller ** 1:04:41 reason why it's led to be number four crisis right is I like to see my clients before the crisis, right, and I know they'll be more motivated after the crisis.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:53 Well, I hope that you'll reach out to Chris and find her on LinkedIn, and all the information is in the show notes. She is right. But. Always like to get people to say it, if they can. I'd love to hear from you. Feel free to email me at Michael H I M, I C H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S i b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, w, w, w, dot Michael hingson, that's m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s o n.com/podcast, podcast singular that is, wherever you're listening or watching, please give us a five star rating. We really value your ratings and your reviews and input. We appreciate it, and for all of you and Chris you as well, if you know of anyone who ought to be a guest, or you think should be a guest on unstoppable mindset, we're always looking for more people to talk with and have conversations with, so please introduce us. We're always excited to get that kind of thing from you as well. So once again, Chris, I just want to thank you for being here. This has been fun today.   Chris Miller ** 1:05:54 Thank you, Michael. It was fun to meet   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:02 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. 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In April 2023, a coalition led by the Heritage Foundation released Project 2025, an audacious blueprint proposing to reshape American governance on a scale rarely seen in modern politics. The plan, spanning nearly a thousand pages, lays out a “Mandate for Leadership” that reaches into the fiber of every federal agency and policy domain, promising dramatic change beginning as soon as January 20, 2025, should the architects gain influence.Project 2025 isn't just another policy playbook. According to The Center for Progressive Reform, it aims to radically restructure the executive branch by concentrating unprecedented power in the Oval Office. By relying on a controversial interpretation of the unitary executive theory, the project proposes to eliminate the independence of the Justice Department, the FBI, the Federal Communications Commission, and the Federal Trade Commission, placing them all directly under presidential control. Kevin Roberts of Heritage proclaimed, “All federal employees should answer to the president,” highlighting the drive for loyalty and ideological uniformity at the highest levels.A significant tool in this restructuring is Schedule F, a hiring scheme that allows for unlimited political appointments without civil service protections. Political loyalists would fill key posts overnight, while thousands of career officials could be dismissed or reassigned. The National Federation of Federal Employees warns this could “destroy the Administrative State,” stripping public servants of their protection and empowering the incoming administration to act with little oversight. Experts note this opens the door to corruption and abuse of power on a level unseen since the patronage systems of the 19th century.Concrete proposals go beyond staffing. Project 2025 calls for dismantling the Consumer Financial Protection Board and the United States Agency for International Development, as seen in recent attempts to eliminate these agencies under the current administration, which has already fired hundreds of thousands of workers. The American Federation of Government Employees and National Treasury Employees Union have filed lawsuits, arguing, “For over 47 years, the law has made clear that collective bargaining in the federal sector is in the public interest. We have taken the necessary action to file a lawsuit to uphold the law and stop this attack.” Meanwhile, chaotic return-to-office mandates and office closures serve a dual purpose: savings, and making remote work, long a civil service perk, much harder.Education policies advocated by Project 2025 are even more sweeping. Brookings experts describe proposals to shutter the Department of Education, eliminate Head Start and Title I funding, privatize the federal student loan program, and rescind protections for LGBTQ+ students. The report's authors, many of whom served in the first Trump administration, envision a landscape where federal enforcement of civil rights is severely curtailed. “This is a great group, and they're going to lay the groundwork and detail plans for exactly what our movement will do,” said former President Trump in 2022, underscoring the project's ambition and alignment with his worldview.Civil liberties groups, including the ACLU, describe Project 2025 as a “blueprint for how to replace the rule of law with right-wing ideals.” Their analysis argues that, from abortion and immigration to free speech and racial justice, recommended actions would erode democratic norms and threaten fundamental rights.As the Heritage Foundation and its allies press forward, the next few months loom large. Will Congress and the courts intervene in time to temper the most sweeping proposals? Could a dramatic overhaul of the federal government become reality on “Day One”? Experts from both ends of the political spectrum agree that, if enacted, Project 2025 would alter the balance of power in Washington – possibly for generations.Thank you for tuning in. Join us next week for a deeper look at how these changes could affect American lives, and what milestones to watch as this bold project unfolds.Some great Deals https://amzn.to/49SJ3QsFor more check out http://www.quietplease.ai

Project 2025 has become one of the most ambitious—and controversial—proposals to reshape American governance in modern times. Unveiled by the Heritage Foundation and backed by a coalition of over 100 conservative groups, this nearly thousand-page blueprint envisions a sweeping overhaul of the federal government if a Republican president takes office in January 2025. Its stated mission is nothing short of a root-and-branch restructuring: dismantle the so-called “administrative state,” reassert presidential control, and roll back everything from agency independence to civil service protections.As Heritage Foundation president Kevin Roberts put it, “all federal employees should answer to the president.” At Project 2025's core lies an aggressive reading of the “unitary executive” theory, which claims the president should exercise direct oversight of the entire executive branch. The project calls for the elimination of the independence of agencies like the Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Federal Trade Commission, and the Federal Communications Commission. This would mean every official answers directly to the Oval Office, erasing barriers that, until now, protected agencies from political interference.Concrete examples of this ambition spill across the plan's 30 dense chapters. According to the policy document “Mandate for Leadership: The Conservative Promise,” Project 2025 proposes the immediate dismissal of all State Department leadership and their replacement by ideologically vetted appointees. Kiron Skinner, who led the chapter on the State Department, wrote that career officials should be replaced by those more loyal to the president's agenda—noting she considered most State staff as “too left-wing.”The implications run deep for the federal workforce. Project 2025 reinvigorates the controversial “Schedule F” system, which would allow the mass reclassification of up to a million civil service positions to at-will federal jobs. As the National Federation of Federal Employees explains, everyone in these positions could be fired and replaced at the president's discretion. This would gut long-standing protections intended to shield government workers from political retribution or interference, paving the way for a loyalist bureaucracy on “Day One.”Some of the earliest developments since the 2024 election have been dramatic. The new administration, working with an Elon Musk–led Department of Government Efficiency, has already attempted to dismantle entire agencies like the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and the U.S. Agency for International Development. According to Politico, Musk's team eliminated the CFPB and USAID, fired tens of thousands of federal workers, and rapidly imposed return-to-office mandates intended to shrink the government's physical footprint. The White House described the effort as making government “more efficient and effective,” with President Trump issuing an executive order for agencies to hire only one new worker for every four who leave.Critics, including the American Civil Liberties Union, warn that Project 2025 poses a grave threat to civil liberties and democratic norms. The ACLU highlights that the blueprint would roll back protections for LGBTQ rights, reproductive rights, and racial equity, while rolling out aggressive new policies on immigration, policing, and free speech. The Center for Progressive Reform is tracking these moves, reporting devastating consequences upon workers, the environment, and the rights of millions as the changes ripple through every U.S. state and territory.Supporters say Project 2025 is necessary to rid Washington of bias, inefficiency, and “woke” influence. Critics counter that it is, in the words of one legal expert for The Atlantic, “an attempt to intellectually retrofit a rationale for Trumpism.” They note that many proposals may require approval from Congress or survive Supreme Court scrutiny, but much of the plan is designed to work through executive action alone.As the country heads toward the 2026 congressional midterms, all eyes are on milestones set by the Project 2025 playbook. Will the courts uphold the expanded executive powers? Can civil service protections be permanently dismantled? And to what extent will Congress shield or resist the transformation underway? More executive orders, agency reshuffles, and legal showdowns are on the horizon, ensuring the fate of Project 2025 will remain a defining issue for the nation.Thanks for tuning in—come back next week for more.Some great Deals https://amzn.to/49SJ3QsFor more check out http://www.quietplease.ai

Kent Lewis grew up in the Seattle area. In college he studied business and marketing. After college he went to work for a PR agency but left to go into the digital marketing industry in 1996. Kent has formed several marketing agencies during his career. He is quite up front about challenges he faced along the way as well as what he learned from each issue he faced.   Kent's philosophy about community is quite interesting and well worth adopting. He believes very much in giving back to his community. Today his day job is serving as “Executive Director of NextNW, a non-profit trade association that unifies the Pacific Northwest advertising & marketing professionals interested in professional development, sharing best practices, and collaborative problem-solving”.   Kent gives us many relevant and timely business insights. I hope you agree that this conversation gives us some good business lessons we all can use.     About the Guest:   Kent Lewis, Executive Director, NextNW Lewis is currently Executive Director of NextNW, a non-profit trade association that unifies the Pacific Northwest advertising & marketing professionals interested in professional development, sharing best practices, and collaborative problem-solving. He is also Founder of pdxMindShare, Portland's premier career community, with over 12,000 LinkedIn Group members. With a background in integrated marketing, he left a public relations agency in 1996 to start his career in digital marketing. Since then, he's helped grow businesses by connecting his clients with their constituents online. In 2000, Lewis founded Anvil Media, Inc., a measurable marketing agency specializing in search engine and social media marketing. Under his leadership, Anvil has received recognition from Portland Business Journal and Inc. Magazine as a Fastest Growing and Most Philanthropic Company.  After selling his agency in March 2022, he became a CMO for the acquiring firm. Beyond co-founding SEMpdx, Lewis co-founded two agencies, emailROI (now Thesis) and Formic Media. As a long-time entrepreneur, he's advised or invested in a host of companies, including PacificWRO, Maury's Hive Tea and ToneTip. Lewis speaks regularly at industry events and has been published in books and publications including Business2Community, Portland Business Journal, and SmartBrief. For twenty years, he was an adjunct professor at Portland State University, and has been a volunteer instructor for SCORE Portland since 2015. Lewis tours nationwide, averaging 30 speaking engagements annually, including a regular presenter role with the Digital Summit conference series. Active in his community, Lewis has been involved in non-profit charity and professional trade organizations including early literacy program SMART Reading and The Entrepreneurs' Organization (EO).  Industry recognition and awards include Portland Business Journal's Top 40 Under 40 Award, American Marketing Association Oregon Chapter Marketer of the Year, and Top 100 Digital Marketing Influencers by BuzzSumo.   Ways to connect with Kent:   Links https://kentjlewis.com/   And LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kentlewis/     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today. We get to chat with an award winning entrepreneur, and he just told me a really interesting factoid. We'll have to, we'll have to talk about it, just because it is about one of the most fascinating things I've heard in quite a while, and a very positive thing. But I'm not going to give it away, because I'm going away, because I'm going to let him talk about it, or at least start the discussion. I'd like you all to meet Kent Lewis. Kent has been an entrepreneur for a while. He helps other entrepreneurs. He works in the non profit arena and does a variety of different kinds of things. And rather than me telling you all about it, you could read the bio, but more important, meet Kent Lewis and Kent, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Kent Lewis ** 02:05 It's, it's a pleasure to be on the show. Thank you for having me, sir.   Michael Hingson ** 02:10 Now where are you located? I'm based in Portland, Oregon, yeah. So you're, you are up up the coast, since I'm in Southern California. So yes, you know, one of these days I'll be up that way again. Well, Alaska Airlines will fly me up there.   Kent Lewis ** 02:27 Yeah, totally right. Yeah, good   Michael Hingson ** 02:29 to have you, unless you come this way first. But anyway, well, I'm really want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. And why don't we start? I love to do this. Tell me a little bit about kind of the early Kent growing up and all that stuff.   Kent Lewis ** 02:44 Yeah, so I grew up in Seattle, Washington. I think something that's influenced me is that my dad was is, or is, a retired architect. And so there was always this design esthetic, and he was an art collector enthusiast, I should say. And so I was always surrounded with art and mid century, you know, furniture and there's just style was a it was a thing. And then my mom was always in when she was a social worker and went into running nonprofits. And so I grew up around that as well of just giving back. So if you ever heard that common term, you know, learn, earn, return. Start your life you're learning, then you're maximizing your earnings during your career, and then when you in and around later in life, you start giving back, right, returning, right. And I learned from my mom that you never stop you never stop learning. You never stop returning. And my my mantra as an entrepreneur is never stop earning right? So, so I've always been giving back and donating my time, and I've always appreciated sort of good design and well thought out things. And I think that's influenced my career in marketing and as an entrepreneur, business owner, and now more of an advisor, Coach type,   Michael Hingson ** 03:59 well, so growing up in Seattle, did you visit pikes market very often?   Kent Lewis ** 04:04 My dad used to work right, right, like, two blocks away. So I would go there all the time. In fact, I remember when there was just one Starbucks when I was a kid, yeah, at Pike Place Market, and they used to sell large chunks of delicious, bitter sweet chocolate, I know, you know, in the behind the counter, and it was a very hi and you could smell the teas and all that. It was a very different experience, very cool place. And so, yeah, love   Michael Hingson ** 04:33 the pipe waste market. I understand that they don't throw the fish anymore. No, they do. They do. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Maybe it was just during the pandemic that they decided not to do that, but   Kent Lewis ** 04:44 think you're right about that. But they definitely, they, they're still, it's still a major attraction. It's too big of a thing to stop.   Michael Hingson ** 04:51 Wow, that's what I was thinking. And that's just way too big of a thing to to stop. My probably not the greatest fish fish catcher, I've been there, but I. I never caught a fish.   Kent Lewis ** 05:02 Yeah, that's only got, like, one or two in my life. And I don't, I don't do it much, but   Michael Hingson ** 05:08 Well, well, that's the place to go anyway. So where did you go to college?   Kent Lewis ** 05:13 I went to Western Washington University in Bellingham, uh, just 1020 minutes from the Canadian border, because, in part, when I was in school, it was a 19 year old drinking age in Canada, so I was 20 minutes away from my earlier drinking age. Turns out, I grew up going to Vancouver, BC quite often for the soccer exchange program when I was a real young youngster. So I fell in love with Vancouver, and as I've had been fortunate enough to travel the world a bit, I realized that it was one of my favorite cities, and it still is. It is such a global, amazing egalitarian, like, no matter your color, race, creed, you could be a millionaire or you could be a bus driver. There was no not the same class, classism you see in other US cities or around the rest of the world. It's truly an amazing and it's also, of course, beautiful   Michael Hingson ** 06:04 there. I found that true throughout Canada, and I've enjoyed every Canadian city I've ever been to. One of my favorites is really going to Toronto. I was always impressed as to how clean it really was.   Kent Lewis ** 06:17 You know, that's true. I've been there a couple times in conferences, and I found it to be clean and impressive, you know, and then, but my, one of my favorite, other cities I only spent overnight, there was Montreal. What a beautiful, beautiful place, absolutely stunning. I   Michael Hingson ** 06:35 spent two days in Montreal once when I was selling some products and turn the TV on at 1131 morning that I was there and watched the Flintstones in French. That was unique. That was unique. Cool. How cool is that? Yeah, it's awesome. That was kind of fun. But, you know, so you, you went to college. What did you major in?   Kent Lewis ** 06:58 I majored in business with a marketing concentration, which is great because I ended up doing marketing for a career, and for 22 years ran my own agency, or my own business, basically.   Michael Hingson ** 07:10 So what did you do when you got out of college?   Kent Lewis ** 07:14 I went immediately into the world of public relations agency life. I always wanted to be a found out after college that I, what I really wanted to be was a copywriter, you know, writing ads. I just coolest thing as a kid. I just didn't know that. It's, I didn't realize what it, what it you have to go to Ad School. You can't, you can't graduate regular college and become a copier. At least you weren't able to when I was, you know, back in the mid 90s. So I started in PR because it sounded hard to pitch the media and try and get them to say what you want them to say about your brand, your client and your brand. And that did me well, because when I got in from went from PR in 94 to digital marketing, SEO, search engine optimization 96 my PR background was extremely helpful. You know, in in that, in that whole world. So because doing PR builds Domain Authority, which builds your rankings in Google, and the rest is history. So, so it was very helpful. It gave me a bit of an edge. And then my business background meant I was better equipped to to go from doing the work to managing people, they're doing the work, to doing my own thing, you know, and running a instant running team, I was running a business. So that was super cool. You   Michael Hingson ** 08:38 know, it's interesting. I've especially because of the World Trade Center, but not only, but before it as well, I learned a lot about dealing with the press. And I've, I've watched a lot of press interviews today, and it's, it's amazing how often and then people have said that this is the way you should do it. No matter what the press person asks you, you answer with the with the answer you really want to give, whether you answer their questions or not. And I think that's an interesting approach, and I suppose it can be positive, but especially for for politicians who don't want to answer the tough questions. But I I know that for me, I've always tried to structure my answers in such a way that it gets them to take the question that they originally asked that I might sort of answer and reframe it so that I will answer a lot of times that, for example, talking about blindness and blind people, there are just so many misconceptions about it and and all too often, like first time I was on Larry King lives, Larry was asking questions about guide dogs. And he said, Now, where did you get your guide dog? And I said, from San Rafael, California. He said, well, but the but the main. School is a new is in Michigan, right? And I said, No, it's a different organization. And what we learned after doing that interview was that the way to deal with Larry was to program him and send him questions in advance with answers. Then he did a lot better, because the reality is, he didn't really know necessarily the answers in the first place. It's just amazing how you know how a lot of times it's just shallower. The Press tends to over dramatize. But I appreciate what you're saying about marketing and PR, I've done so much of that over my lifetime, and for so many reasons, in so many ways, I know exactly what you're talking about.   Kent Lewis ** 10:47 Yeah, yeah. That's, yeah, it's, it's a fascinating world that I've, that I've, you know, been live, living and working in. And I, yeah, I'm impressed, yeah, Larry King Live. That's pretty cool. And, you know, hopefully you've helped people just side note, you know, get a clear understanding of what it is, what it is both like to be blind and then how you navigate this world successfully, as if you're, you know, fully sighted. You know,   Michael Hingson ** 11:18 well, one of the things that I actually learned over the last couple of years is something that I've actually written an article and had it published about, and that is that we've got to change our view of disabilities in general. People always say, well, disability is a lack of ability. And I say, and I always say, No, it's not. And they say, Well, yes, it is. It begins with dis. And I said, then, how do you equate that with disciple, discern and discrete? For example, you know they begin with D is the reality is, disability is not a lack of ability. You think it is. But I've added to that now when I point out that, in reality, every person on the planet has a disability, but for most people, their disability is covered up. Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb, or at least we give him credit for it back in 1878 so for the last 147 years, all we've done is spent so much time improving on the technology that provides light on demand, which just covers up your disability, but it's still there. And I realized that one day I was at a hotel in Los Angeles at three in the afternoon when we had a power failure, and everybody started to scream, even down in the lobby, when they had all these nice big windows that were letting in all sorts of light, but it wasn't giving them the light that they wanted and the amount that they wanted, and people panicked. So I realized then, oh, well, now the reality is they're light dependent, which is as much a disability as my light independence is. It's just that it manifests itself differently, and there are a whole lot more light dependent people than light independent people. But we've got to really change our definition and how we view it. So   Kent Lewis ** 12:58 that's really insightful. It's good to think about.   Michael Hingson ** 13:01 Yeah, it's kind of fun. But, you know, so, so where did you, where did you go off and go to work in the in the marketing world? So you did? You didn't go to Copyright School? Or did you? No, no,   Kent Lewis ** 13:13 I just know. I once I talked to the creative director at this agency in Seattle where I did my first internship. He's like, Yeah, you'd have to go back to art school. And I was like, what school I just finished? So, you know, it didn't really matter. And we So, with that said, we, you know, I moved into PR, and then I moved to down to Portland from Seattle, because I could actually get a paying job because the internship I did three months full time, virtually, basically no pay, I found a low paying job instead in Portland. So I moved I only knew one person here in Portland, my cousin. She's still here. We both have families now, and I know a lot more people, but I basically have, since moving here to do my second agency job. I've been, I've been a part of 10 agencies in my career. I've been, I founded two, co founded two, fired from three and exited the four that I created, or co, co founded, basically. And so right now I have a consultancy. I could say that's my 11th agency, but I don't even really count it as an agency. I'm just a fractional CMO, you know, marketing advisor at this point, just a few hours a month, because my my day job as of January, is running a nonprofit called next northwest.org which is a it's a trade organization for marketing and advertising and creative community, the creative services world. And it has 119 year history in Portland. And now it's, it's now expanded to five states and into Canada. And so I've got this I'm working. I manage a board of, you know, decent sized board, and a decent sized advisory. Committee that I created, and just the last couple months, and we do learning events for the creative community and networking events and celebrations, like, you know, awards, award shows to celebrate the work. So that's kind of my day job. And then I also speak and write a lot you and I share a passion for for education and learning and sharing knowledge. And so I've been, I've probably averaged 25 speaking engagements a year for the last 20 years, and last year was 30. For instance, I fly yours, mentioned your your travel. I'm flying to Tampa on Sunday to present on Monday, on a panel about AI in the senior care space, for instance. And then I come back and I, I, you know, got it. I got one or two more. But I, you know, I typically do a dozen fly flying gigs, and then I do a lot of webinars and local gigs as well.   Michael Hingson ** 15:55 So what are you what are you going to say? What are you going to say about AI in the senior care space?   Kent Lewis ** 16:01 That's a great question. So what my focus as a marketer is, here's how you can use AI to streamline and automate and maintain or improve quality. So it's not meant to it's not a secret hack, cheat code to lay people off. It's a It's get more out of your current resources, basically, and do more with less, and do it more effectively. That's kind of, that's, you know, that's my, what I'll be talking about is the how you know how to use it for research, ideation, content creation, content editing, reporting, synthesizing information, customer service, that kind of thing. So I only have, you know, it's a panel event, so I'm only doing like a 10 to 15 minutes part, and then there are other presenters doing their part, and then we have a little Q and A, usually, I'm a sole presenter on whatever topic, usually digital marketing or employee engagement, which is what I got passionate about. Once I sold my agency. After 22 years, I became an employee at that the agency that acquired my company, and I was immediately underwhelmed and disappointed in what it was like to be an employee, and wanted to fix it. So that's what I had been focusing on when I given a choice. I want to evangelize. You know, what I learned from my experience, and I've done a good amount of research, and, you know, two weeks ago, I presented in Portland on the topic to entrepreneurs. Then the next day, I flew to Denver and did the same presentation to a group of agency owners. And then the next day, I did a webinar for similar group of entrepreneurs, you know, so three versions, three days in a row, a 3060, and 90 minute version. So,   Michael Hingson ** 17:42 pretty fun. Yeah. So how many books have you written?   Kent Lewis ** 17:47 Ah, I knew you'd say that so or ask that. I have not written any books, but I have, darn but I've written, you know, probably 200 articles. I could easily AI them into some sort of book, if I wanted to. You know, I went from writing 80% to 90% of my art content was on digital marketing for the first 20 years. And then the last 10 years, I focused almost exclusively on writing about entrepreneurship and and business ownership, leadership and employee intention, retention, engagement. And, you know, so I mostly syndicate my articles, like business journals, occasionally in Ink Magazine, etc. So if I were to write a book, it would be about the business side of things, instead of the second, I would write something about digital marketing. Not only am I no longer an expert, and consider myself an expert relative to others, those books are outdated the second they're printed, right? So, so it doesn't make sense to really write a book on digital marketing, and everything's already been said, etc. So, so if I wrote a book, it would be probably more on the employee engagement side versus anything. But I will say that I don't know if you know who Seth Godin is. He's the number one marketing blogger in the world. He's written many best sellers, Purple Cow, permission, marketing, etc. He's remarkable guy. And I had was fortunate to talk with him and then meet with him over lunch in New York City 15 years ago. And he said, after our two hour lunch, he charges $75,000 for speaking engagement. So it gives you a sense of who he is. He has for for 20 years. And so he said, Kent, you've got a book in you. I was like, I wish you hadn't said that, because now I don't want to, I don't want to disappoint him, right? So there you go.   Michael Hingson ** 19:31 Well, if you write one at some point, you have to send us a picture of the cover and we'll stick it in the show notes whenever. Yeah, that sounds great, but yeah, I you know, I never thought of writing a book, but in 2002 we went to the AKC Eukanuba canine championship dog show in Orlando. It was in December, and among other people I met there. Here I met George Berger, who was at that time, the publisher of the American Kennel Club Gazette, and he said, You ought to write a book. And I went, why? Well, because you you have a great story to tell. You should really write a book. Well, it took eight years and a lot of time sitting in front of Microsoft Word to get notes down, but eventually I met someone named Susie Flory who called because she was writing a book called Dog tails. And it was a story of what she wanted to write stories of, actually, 17 different dogs who had done some pretty interesting and miraculous things. And she wanted to write a story about my guide dog at the World Trade Center, Roselle. And she said, Tell me your story, if you would. And I did. And when we were done, there was this pause, and then she said, You need to write a book. And since I've written books, I'll help you. And a year later, underdog was published, and it became a number one New York Times bestseller. So that was pretty cool.   Kent Lewis ** 21:01 That's fantastic. Congratulations. Very impressive.   Michael Hingson ** 21:04 And then last year, well, in 2013 we published a children's book called running with Roselle, but more adults by a thing kids, because it's not a picture book, but it tells the story of me growing up and Roselle growing up, and how we met, and all that. So it isn't really as much a World Trade Center book. But then last year, we wrote, live like a guide dog. And the intent of live like a guide dog is to say to people, look fear is all around us, and so many people just allow themselves to be paralyzed, or, as I say, blinded by fear, so they can't make decisions. They don't learn how to control it. But if you learn how to control fear, you can use fear as a very powerful tool to help you stay focused, and you'll make better decisions. So we use lessons I learned from my guide dogs on my wife's service dog to write, live like a guide dog. And so it is out there, and it's it's a lot of fun, too. So you know, it isn't the easiest thing to write a book, but I would think you have a book in you, and you should, well, I   Kent Lewis ** 22:03 appreciate that vote of confidence. And hey, I mean, you did it, and you had an amazing story, and you've done it multiple times. Actually, it's great inspiration for me.   Michael Hingson ** 22:16 Well, I'm looking forward to reading it when it comes out. You'll have to let   22:20 us know. Yeah, will do so   Michael Hingson ** 22:23 you at some point, switched from being an employee to being an entrepreneur. How did that all happen? Why? Why did you do it? Or what really brought that about?   Kent Lewis ** 22:38 Well, I kept getting fired.   Michael Hingson ** 22:40 So why'd that happen?   Kent Lewis ** 22:42 Yeah, so that's the fun part. So I I've never been fired for cause like a legit clause. I'm a high powered, high performer, and so I actually, that's why. So the first time I was fired was by the guy that invited me to co found an agency. His name was Ryan Wilson. He was my he was my boss. And then he was fired by our larger agency. He ran a team that I worked on. I worked for him. I was inspired by him. I I was mentored by him. I thought the world of him. So when he came to me three months after he got fired, it was about, it's always about a girl. So he he basically, he got divorced. And so this other woman, they met at the office, and they were soul mates, and they he had to clean up his life. And he did, and he said, I've got an agency die. I've got two clients ready to sign. I need key employees, and you're one, one of them, then I would hope you would join me. I said, No, the first time he got his act together. I said, yes, the second time, and that. So I we built an agency together with, you know, we start with six people. I brought in two other people and another gal that ran the PR side. I was running the digital side. She brought in somebody said we had six of us on day one, and a year later, we didn't have a formal share shareholder agreement for our percentage of the company that went from being worth zero to being worth a few million dollars, and we felt that we should have something in writing, and before he could, we could get something formally in writing. My, my other partner, she, I didn't really want to do the business with her, but I didn't really have a choice. I want to do the business with him. She said, I'm asking for more equity. I said, Okay, I feel like that's fair. I think we've earned it, but, and I'll, I'll be there with you, but I wouldn't have done this if she hadn't said, I'm going in. Are you with me? So when I we asked, she asked me to make the ask. I wasn't necessarily prepared or thinking about it, and it really offended him. He was really mad, and he was playing to fire her, and by me teaming up with her, he felt, you know, slight. And he fired us both, and the next week, I started anvil, my agency, Anvil Media, that I ran for 22 years, I did a couple other starts, one with a college friend and a guy I had met at that that at one of the first, one of the earlier agency agencies I'd worked at. He and we, he and I and my college buddy started an email marketing agency in 02 and then I decided, well, this isn't for me, but I now learn it's not that scary to hire employees. So then I started hiring employees at anvil and late 03 and so I ran anvil with employees for, you know, 20 years. Two of those first two years were just me and some contractors and and then, oh, wait, I started a second agency because I needed a more affordable solution for my partners in small business called Formic media. Ran that for five years before I merged it with with anvil. But in between, I was also fired. When I first started anvil, I was it was just a hang of shingle in 2000 to do some consulting, but I wanted a full time gig, and a year later, I had an opportunity to run my my team from the agency. I was fired from that company. That agency was sold to another agency for pennies on the dollar. And when my old boss died, rest in peace, we hadn't really cleared the air yet, which is it still is one of my greatest regrets. You know, for nine months we didn't talk, and then he passed away. Everybody peace, not before he passed away, I was able to get, yeah, his his soul mate. They weren't married yet, but they were going to get married. She told me that two weeks before he died, he expressed regrets and how we had ended the relationship, how he had fired me, and he was looking forward to reconnecting and re engaging our friendship. And so that made that meant the world to me. I had a lot of peace in knowing that, but I so the first the second place I got fired was this agency again about a girl. So the first time was a girl telling me, you need to ask the boss for more money or more equity. And I did, and that offended him. And the second time was my girlfriend at the time, who's who moved over from that agency to the new agency where my my old boss died before he could really start there. She was dating on the side the Creative Director at that agency, and he'd been there over 20 years. And so when I started there, I saw something was up, and I was like, Is there anything going on? She's like, No. And so eventually I just broke up with her anyway, because I just it wasn't working, even if she wouldn't admit that she was having a side relationship. But I was eventually fired because he was a board, you know, he was on the board. He was, he wasn't my boss, per se, but he was one of the senior partners, and they just wanted me out. You know, she might have money. Wanted me out. He definitely wanted me out. So that was the second time I got fired. And then the third time I got fired was it kept the stakes get given, getting bigger. When I sold my agency 14 months later, they fired me, really, not to this day, not for any cause. It's that they asked me to take an 80% pay cut a year into my buyout, and I and then I they were going to close my Portland office, which I was, I own the building, so I didn't want to lose my own myself as a tenant, so I offered to reduce my rent 30% so I basically, for two and a half months, worked for free for this agency that had bought my agency. So they were making payments to me. I was carrying the note, but they they couldn't. A year later, they're like, I'm sorry. So they a year later, I took a pay cut for two and a half months, and when I asked them, you know, when am I getting back to my pay? They said, Well, you know, we can't guarantee. We don't have a path for you back to your full pay. And I was like, Okay, well, then I told my wife, let him inform them that we're going to go back to, we are going to go back to our full rack rate on our rent. And when I, when we notified them, they they totally, they totally fired me. So they canceled the lease, and they fired me, and so they so it. And you know, I, my team was slowly being dismantled, a 10 of us, 11 of us, I guess 10 or 11 us went over, and within a year, there were only two wait. Within two years, there was only one person left on my team. So it was a really sad, sad experience for me. It wasn't as hard to sell my business as I thought. It wasn't as hard, you know, just emotionally, it wasn't as hard to sunset my brand after 22 years. Wasn't easy, but it was way easier than I thought. What was hard for me was watching them was was closing the office. It broke my heart and and then watching them dismantle my team that I spent, you know, two decades building, most of that team was within 10 years, the last 10 years, last even five years of of our business. Us. There was a relatively new team, but we were so tight, and it was just heartbreaking. So, you know,   Michael Hingson ** 30:09 yeah, wow. So what do you think was your biggest mistake in running your own agency?   Kent Lewis ** 30:19 That's a great question. I think the biggest, biggest mistake was not understanding the Hire great people and get out of the way. Lee Iacocca, you know, to paraphrase him, I hired great people and I got out of their way. But what I didn't do was make sure they had all the proper training, alignment of core values that they had, there was enough trust between us that they could come to me with they were struggling or failing. Apparently, I was a fairly intimidating figure for my former my young recruits, but most of that time, up until the last five years, I always had a senior VP my right hand. I hired her with the attention that she might take over the business someday, she was totally creating a wall between me and my employees, and I didn't know it until 2012 and so, you know, I had 10 years to try to undo what she had created the first 10 years, basically of a fear based management style, so that that didn't help me, and I didn't believe it. I didn't really see it. So then I rebuilt the company, and from the ground up, I blew it up in 2013 so 10 years after of having employees, 13 years of having the business, I completely dismantled and blew it up and rebuilt it. And what did that look like? It started with me just not wanting to go to work in the building, and I realized I can't quit because I'm the owner, so I have to fix it. Okay? I don't mind fixing things. I prefer to fix other people's problems instead of my own, but I really a lot of people do, right? Yeah. So I wrote a credo, basically, what would it take for me? What are, what are it got down to 10 truths, what? What are the truths that I need to go into work and that others around me, co workers, team members, need to also agree on so that we can work together successfully. So it went from being about clients to being about the team and being about accountability. And you know, it was so it was so decisive. It was so radical for my current team that had been with me five to 10 years of they lose clients, I get more clients. And I eventually told them, I can't replace clients as fast as you're losing them. It's not a sustainable business model, so you need to be accountable for your actions and your decisions. That's the new anvil. You and you're out. I gave them 72 hours to think about it and sign it. Signed literally to these credo. It's not a legal document, it's just a commitment to credo. And half the team didn't sign it, and they quit. And then within 12 months, the rest of the team either quit or we've I fired them because they did not fit in the new anvil. And it's funny because everybody else that I brought in didn't even it didn't even register. The credo was so unremarkable to them, because we were already aligned by the time we hired them, we'd done our research and the work to know who fit, and so they didn't register. So eventually we just dropped the credo was no longer needed as a guide or a framework. It's still on the website, but, but you don't, you know it doesn't really matter. But that's what I got wrong, is I did not build the trust. I did not have I had processes in place, but but without the trust, people wouldn't tell me how they felt or that they were struggling. So a lot of process wasn't recognized or utilized properly. So I rebuilt it to where and rebuilt the trust to where the team that was with me when I sold I was very close with them. There was 100% trust across the board, a mutual respect, arguably a mutual love for the craft, for each other, for the company, for our clients, and it was a lot of fun to work with them. I didn't sell because I was unhappy. I sold because I was happy, and I thought now's a good time to go and find a good home. Plus my wife was my operations manager for five years, and she wanted out. Frankly, I thought it was easier to sell the business than try to replace my wife, because she was very good at what she did. She just didn't like doing it, yeah? And she also didn't like, you know, me being her boss. I never saw it that way. But once she explained it, after I sold, she explained, like, you know, you boss me around at work, and then you try to boss me around at home, and I'm not having it. You pick one? Yeah, so, so I was like, I think, like, I bossed you around. And she's like, Hey, you just, it was your company. It was always going to be your company. And, you know, that's fine, but you know, I want to move on. I was like, Okay, why don't we just sell and so that, yeah, they the operational people. And so it took her, took that load off of her. She's worked for. Nonprofit now, so she's happy, and so that's good.   Michael Hingson ** 35:05 Well, it also sounds like there were a lot of people that well, first of all, you changed your your view and your modus operandi a little bit over time, and that's why you also got you fired, or you lost people. But it also sounds like what you did was you brought in more people, not only who thought like you, but who really understood the kinds of goals that you were looking at. And so it was a natural sort of thing. You brought in people who really didn't worry about the credo, because they lived by it anyway.   Kent Lewis ** 35:38 Yeah, that's exactly right. And that was, that was my lesson. Was, you know, I always knew there's a concept called Top grading. You know, you thoroughly vet client, you hire slow and you fire fast. Most entrepreneurs or business owners hire fast and fire slow, and it's very, very expensive and but, you know, I got that part and I just better. I was far better at, I was far better at, what would I say, creating processes than kind of feeling, the love? And so once I figured that stuff out, it got a lot it got a lot better.   Michael Hingson ** 36:16 It's a growth thing. Yes,   36:18 exactly, yeah. Well, you   Michael Hingson ** 36:21 have something, and you sent me something about it. You call it Jerry Maguire moment. Tell me about that.   Kent Lewis ** 36:28 Yeah. So that's, you know, I just, I just sort of backed into the story of just being unhappy. But what ended up happening more specifically that Jerry Maguire moment was putting my son to bed in March of 2013 and I mentioned that feeling of not of dread. I didn't want to go to work. I was frustrated with my team, disappointed in my clients, not appreciating the work we were doing, frustrated with some of my partners. You know, in the business, I felt disconnected from the work of digital because I'd worked on the business for longer than I'd worked in the business by that point, and so I just, it was, it was, I was a bit of a mess. And I realized, like, I need a reason to get up and go to work in the morning. And that's when I came up. I was inspired by Jerry Maguire's manifesto from from the movie, and apparently you can find it online. It's a 28 page manifesto. So I ended up distilling into those 10 truths that we called the credo, and so what happening is just again to recap, it took me a like a couple days. I had instant clarity. I like I fell asleep like a rock. Once I realized I had a plan and I had a framework, I felt better about it, even though there was much work to do. So as I mentioned, you know, half the team quit within the first week, the other half bled out over the next year. That meant 100% employee turnover for two years in a row. As like as I upgraded my team, that was painful. I had to hire three people in order to keep one good one. You know, as I as I search, because we don't have formal degrees in the world of digital marketing, right? So it's hard to find the talent, and you want to hold on to the good ones when you get them. So it took a long time to get the team dialed. Meanwhile, my clients got tired of the turnover. As I was trying to figure it out, they started leaving in droves, and so in 2014 in March, a year later, exactly, I lost my five biggest clients in a 30 to 45 day period. So I lost, you know, 40, over 40% of my revenue vaporized, and I could not replace it fast enough. So I didn't take a salary for nine months. I asked two senior execs to take small pay cuts like 10% and as we hunkered down, and so I didn't have to lay off any good talent, and so I didn't, and we sprinted, we rebuilt, you know, the pipeline, and brought some new clients in. By the end of the year, I paid back my my two senior employees, their 10% that they pay cut. I paid them back, but I didn't take a salary for nine months of that year. It was the worst year I'd ever had, and the only time I ever had to take a pay cut or miss a paycheck myself. So that was the price I paid. The plus side is once I realized that the focus should be on the employees, which was what the credo was, I didn't realize at the time that it wasn't about my clients anymore. They were the life blood. They were the blood flow, right? But we have this organism that needed love, so we I breathe life back into it, one employee at a time until we had a higher functioning group. So it took me five or six years, and in 2019 so six years after I blew the business up, I had an offer on the table, had a sale agreement finalized, and we were less than a week away from funding, and I backed out of the deal because I felt, one, it wasn't a good cultural fit, and two, there was more work to do. It wasn't about increasing my valuation more. It was about finishing my journey of an employee first agency and. Three years later, I sold for one and a half x higher multiple, so an additional seven figures to to another agency based on a stronger profitability, even though the revenue is about the same, stronger, you know, profitability right better. Happy clients, stable clients. It was a lower risk acquisition for them and the so that was the high point. The low point was becoming an employee and wanting to be the best damn employee that agency had ever seen to being a very disappointed, disengaged, disheartened, disheartened employee. And I then I decided I started writing notes of everything, not to do that they were doing wrong. And I decided, once they let me go, I need to focus on this. I think I needed to help my other fellow entrepreneurs ways to avoid going through what I went through as an employee, because I had just been one, and most of my employ, my entrepreneur friends, haven't been an employee for over 10 years. You easily, quickly forget what it's like to be an employee, and I want to remind them and as other senior leaders, how important it is to put your employees first, otherwise you can never deliver on your brand promise no matter what it is, because they won't deliver to your standards. Because it's you know, they don't feel the same attachment to a business if they as if they're not owners, right?   Michael Hingson ** 41:22 But it sounds like you also, when you did sell, by that time, you had employees, one who had bought into the credo, into the philosophy, and two were satisfied. So it was a much better situation all the way around. Anyway,   Kent Lewis ** 41:38 exactly. It's right? And that's, that's the thing is, I realized it's not about throwing money at a problem. It's about throwing time and care at a problem. And the problem is that most employers, there is no loyalty employ to employees anymore, and therefore there's no employee loyalty to brands anymore, to their employers. And so I'm trying to unwind that. And it's not about pension plans, per se. It's not about bonuses, really at all. That's one of 120 items on my punch list of auditing and employee journey is, yeah, do you have a bonus program? Mine was basically spot bonuses, little spot bonuses for timely things, because the big cash bonuses blew up in my face. You know, i i the biggest bonus check I ever wrote. The next day he quit and created a competing agency. Now, he had planned that all along it, the bonus was only helped him do it faster, but I realized there was no appreciation for the bonuses. So stop doing that. So instead, I would bonus, reward the team with experiences rather than cash. And they the cash they got from a really, I paid over market, so that money was not an issue, and so that experiences were the memorable part and the fun part, and it helped motivate when we'd have a little contest with, you know, the wind being a dinner or whatever it was, something fun, right?   Michael Hingson ** 43:00 I was, earlier today, talking with someone who's going to be a guest on the podcast. He's in Germany, and we were talking about the fact that there's a major discussion in Germany right now about the concept of a four day work week, as opposed to a five day work week, and in the four day work week. Inevitably, companies that subscribe to the four day work week have higher productivity, happier employees, and some of those companies have a four day work week with a total of 36 hours and up through a four day work week with 40 hours, which is, of course, 10 hours a day. And what he said, I asked the question, did it make a difference as to whether it was 36 or 40 hours? What he said was mainly not, because it was really about having three days with family, and that that whole mental attitude is really it that we, we have forgotten, I think, in this country, about employee loyalty so much, and we just don't see anything like what we used to see.   Kent Lewis ** 44:09 100% you are correct,   Michael Hingson ** 44:13 and so it is. It is an issue that people really ought to deal with in some way. But you know now the new chancellor in Germany wants to go back to a five day work week, just completely ignoring all the statistics and what's shown. So the discussion is ongoing over there. I'll be interested to see how it goes.   Kent Lewis ** 44:36 Yeah, yeah, totally. I would be in Troy. Yeah. We know for whatever reason, for whatever reason that they've you know that well, I guess it kind of makes sense. But you know, you wouldn't think you could be more productive fewer days a week, but the research is showing that these people, that you know, that the like the Northern Europeans, are the, you know, Finnish and Scandinavians are like the half. People on the planet, despite not being in maybe the friendliest climate, you know, 12 months of the year because of a lot of how they value, you know, work life balance and all of that. And I think that's the thing, you know, we we came from an industrial age where unions got us the weekends off. You know, it's a very different we've come a long way, but there's still a lot more to go, so I, I will be interested to see what happens with the with that concept that four day work week.   Michael Hingson ** 45:26 Well, the other part about it is we had the pandemic, and one of the things that came out of the pandemic, at least, I think, in the minds of a lot of employees, was even working at home, and having to do that, you still got to spend more time with family and people value that. Now I don't know how over time that's going to work, because I know there's been a lot of advocating to go back to just everybody always being in the office, but it seems to me that the better environment would be a hybrid environment, where, if somebody can work at home and do at least as well as they do at the office. Why wouldn't you allow that?   Kent Lewis ** 46:04 Right? Yeah, I think it's that's the other thing is, I do believe hybrid work is the best solution. We were doing three three days, two days in the office, required, one day, optional flex. I ended up going in most days of the week before I, you know, even after we sold and we sell at the office, because I like, I'm a social being, and I really enjoyed the time at the office. And it was, it was, I designed the space, and it was, you know, as my place, and it was my home away from home, you know. So I feel like I've lost a little bit of my identity, losing that office. Yeah, so, but yeah, I do think that it makes sense to be able to do remote work, whatever, wherever people are most effective. But I do know there is a reality that companies are fully remote have a struggle to create cohesiveness and connectiveness across distributed teams. It's just it's just science, right? Psychology, but you can be very intentional to mitigate as much as you can the downside of remote and then play up as much as you can the benefits of remote people having their life and they see, on average, I heard that people valued their remote work about to worth about $6,000 on average, that there's a number that they've quantified.   Michael Hingson ** 47:21 Wow. Well, I know I've worked in offices, but I've also done a lot of work at home. So for example, I had a job back in the late 1970s and worked and lived in Massachusetts until 1981 and the company I worked for was being pursued by Xerox. And the the assumption was that Xerox was going to buy the company. So I was asked to relocate back out to California, where I had grown up, and help integrate the company into Xerox. And so I did. And so that was the first time I really worked mostly out of home and remotely from an office. And did that for two and a half, almost, well, a little over two and a half years. And my thanks for it was I was terminated because we had a recession and the big issue really was, though, that Xerox had bought the company and phased out all the people in sales because they didn't want the people. They just wanted the technology. And I've always believed that's a big mistake, because the tribal knowledge that people have is not something that you're going to get any other place. Totally, totally agree. But anyway, that occurred, and then I couldn't find a job, because the unemployment rate among employable blind people was so high, since people didn't believe blind people could work. So I ended up starting my own company selling computer aided design systems, CAD systems, to architects. Some of the early PC based CAD systems. Sold them to architects and engineers and so on. So I did have an office. We started, I started it with someone else, and had an office for four years, and then decided I had enough of owning my own company for a while, and went to work for someone else, and again, worked in an office and did that for seven years. Yeah, about seven years, and then I ended up in at the end of that, or the later part of that time, I was asked to relocate now back to the East Coast, because I was selling to Wall Street and New York and Wall Street firms really want, even though they might buy from resellers and so on, they want company, companies that make products to have them an office that they can deal with. So I ended up going back and mostly worked out of the office. But then, um. I left that company in 1997 and it was, it was a little bit different, because I was, I I had my own office, and I was the only person in it for a little while. We did have some engineers, but we all kind of worked in the office and sometimes at home. But for me, the real time of working at home happened in 2008 I was working at a nonprofit and also traveling and speaking, and the people who ran the nonprofit said, nobody's interested in September 11 anymore. And you know, you're you're not really adding any value to what we do, so we're going to phase out your job. Yeah, nobody was interested in September 11. And three years later, we had a number one New York Times bestseller, but anyway, your face yeah, so I ended up opening the Michael Hinkson Group Inc, and working out of home, and I've been doing that ever since. I enjoy working in an office. But I can work at home and I can, I can adapt. So my exposure to people and working not at home is when I travel and speak and get to go visit people and interact with them and so on. So it works out   Kent Lewis ** 51:05 that's, that's fantastic, congratulations. That's awesome.   Michael Hingson ** 51:10 It is, it is, you know, sometimes a challenge, but it works. So for you, what is your philosophy? You obviously do a lot of giving back to the community nowadays, is that something that has kind of grown over time, or you always had that? Or what's your philosophy regarding that?   Kent Lewis ** 51:29 So I I believe that, as I mentioned, I believe earlier that learn and return us. I believe that you should giving, giving back your entire life, as soon as you're able to, in whatever way. And so I, you know, when I first moved to Portland, I barely knew anybody. I was volunteering at this local neighborhood house where it was, you know, as tutoring this kid, and ironically, in math. And I'm terrible at math. Then I went to Big Brothers, Big Sisters for a while, and then I for the last 19 for last 25 years, I've been a volunteer, and for eight or nine of those years, I was on the board of smart reading. It's a, it's a, it's not a literacy program in that you're not teaching kids to read. You're teaching kids a love of reading. So you just sit with, you know, title, title, one school kindergarteners in an area near you, and you sit and read with them for 10 to 15 minutes, that's it. And it's a game changer, because some of them didn't own any books. And then they get to take books home with them, you know, like scholastic style books. So anyway, I I decided, of all, like I have friends, that their their passion is pets, others, it's like forests or planet or whatever. To me, I think I can, I can solve all of those problems if I invest in children, because they're shaping our future, and we can put them on a trajectory. So for instance, statistically, prison capacity is based on third grade reading levels in blue. So if you're if you can't learn to read, you can't read to learn, so you need to have a be a proficient reader by third grade, or you're left behind, and you're more likely, 10 times more likely, to be in the system, and you know, not in a good way. So I realized, well, if I can help these kids with a love of reading, I was, I was slow to learn reading myself. I realized that maybe we, you know that one kid that you find a love of reading, that finds books they love and is inspired by the books and continues to read and have a successful educational career, then that's that person may go on to solve cancer or world hunger or whatever it is. So that's kind of how I look at so that's my theory in general about giving. And then specifically my passion is children. So that's kind of my thing, and I think there are a lot of different ways to do it. Last night, I was at my wife's auction or the fundraiser for her nonprofit, which is around the foster system. It's called Casa court, important court, court appointed special advocate. So these kids in the foster system have an advocate, that that's not a lawyer or a caseworker, you know, by their side through the legal system. And I think that's a fantastic cause. It aligns with my children cause. And I was, I had seven my parents fostered seven daughters, you know, Daughters of other people, and the last two were very that I remember were transformative for me as an only child, to have a sister, you know, foster sister that was living with us for, in one case, two years. And it was invaluable and helpful to me. She helped me find my love of reading, helped me learn my multiplication tables, all that things that your parents might be able to do, but it's so much cooler doing with somebody that's, you know, I think she was 17 when she moved into our house, and I was, like, nine, and she was so helpful to me, so inspiring. So in a nutshell, that's, that's what we're talking about   Michael Hingson ** 54:55 when you talk talk about reading. I'm of the opinion and one of the best. Things that ever happened to reading was Harry Potter. Just the number of people, number of kids who have enjoyed reading because they got to read the Harry Potter books. I think that JK Rowling has brought so many kids to reading. It's incredible.   Kent Lewis ** 55:14 Yeah, yeah. 100% 100% I Yeah. I think that even you may, you know, you may or may not like rolling, but I as a person, but she did an amazing thing and made reading fun, and that that's what matters, yeah, you know,   Michael Hingson ** 55:33 yeah, well, and that's it, and then she's just done so much for for children and adults. For that matter, I talked to many adults who've read the books, and I've read all the books. I've read them several times, actually, yeah, now I'm spoiled. I read the audio versions read by Jim Dale, and one of my favorite stories about him was that he was in New York and was going to be reading a part of the latest Harry Potter book on September 11, 2001 in front of scholastic when, of course, everything happened. So he didn't do it that day, but he was in New York. What a you know, what a time to be there. That's fantastic. But, you know, things happen. So you one of the things that I've got to believe, and I think that you've made abundantly clear, is that the kind of work you do, the PR, the marketing, and all of that kind of interaction is a very time consuming, demanding job. How do you deal with work and family and make all of that function and work? Well,   Kent Lewis ** 56:41 good question. I, I believe that that the, well, two things you have to have, you know, discipline, right? And so what I've done is really focused on managing my time very, very carefully, and so I have now keep in mind my oldest, I have three kids, one's graduating college as a senior, one's a sophomore who will be a junior next next year, and then The last is a sophomore in high school, so I'm there at ages where two are out of the house, so that's a little easier to manage, right? So there's that, but similarly, I try to maximize my time with my youngest and and with my wife, you know, I built in, you know, it was building in date nights, because it's easy to get into a rut where you don't want to leave the house or don't want to do whatever. And I found that it's really been good for our relationship at least once a month. And so far, it's been more like almost twice a month, which has been huge and awesome. But I've just intentional with my time, and I make sure 360 I take care of myself, which is typically working out between an hour and an hour and a half a day that I'm I really need to work on my diet, because I love burgers and bourbon and that's in moderation, perhaps sustainable, but I need to eat more veggies and less, you know, less garbage. But I also have been at the gym. I go in the Steam Room and the sauna, and I'm fortunate to have a hot tub, so I try to relax my body is after my workouts, I've been sleeping more since covid, so I work out more and sleep and sleep more post covid. And because I'm working from home, it's really I find it much easier to get up and take breaks or to, you know, just to manage my time. I'm not traveling like I used to, right? That's a, that's a big factor. So, so anyway, that's, that's kind of my take on that. I don't know if that really helps, but that's, that's kind of where I'm at.   Michael Hingson ** 58:59 The other part about it, though, is also to have the discipline to be able to be at home and work when you know you have to work, and yeah, you get to take more breaks and so on, but still developing the discipline to work and also to take that time is extremely important. I think a lot of people haven't figured out how to do that   Kent Lewis ** 59:19 right exactly, and that is so I do have an immense amount of, I do have an immense amount of, what would you say discipline? And so I don't know, yeah, I don't have that problem with getting the work done. In fact, my discipline is knowing when to stop, because I get into it, and I want to get things done, and I want to get it off my plate, so I tend to do sprints. But the other lesson I have from covid is listening to your biorhythms. So, you know, we're a time based society, and we look, you don't want to be late for this and that I you know, that's great, fine. But what's really more important in my mind is, um. Is to, is to be thinking about, is to let your body tell you when it's tired, if and and more importantly, is to not stress about in the mornings when I wake up early. By that, I mean between four and 6am before I really want to get up at 630 and I just if I'm awake, then I'll write stuff down to get it out of my head, or I will just start doing my start my day early and and not stress about, oh, I didn't get enough sleep. My body will catch up, yeah, it will tell me to go to bed early, or I'll sleep better the next day, or whatever it is. So that was important, and also to learn that I'm most I can get a lot of tasks done in the morning. And I think bigger picture, and that's what, that's why I wake up early, is all the things I need to do that I forgot. I didn't write down or whatever, and I think of them at between four and 6am but the other is that I do my best writing in the afternoon, like between four and six. So I told my, my wife and my, you know, my my kids, you know, my first figures out when they were both in the House. I was like, I may be working late, jamming out an article or doing whatever right before dinner, or I might be a little late. Can we can wait for dinner for a little bit? They're like, Yeah, that's fine. We don't care, right? So, but normally I'd be like, I gotta get home because it's dinner time. But now that I'm already home, I just keep working through, and then, and then, oh, I can take a quick break. But my point is, they're totally adaptable.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:27 But you communicate, yes, communication issue is key. Is key, absolutely. That's really the issues that you do communicate.   Kent Lewis ** 1:01:36 It's all about setting expectations. And they had no expectations other than eating dinner. And we've been eating dinner later. Just, just a natural evolution. So it's not, it's not even an issue now, because I don't want to, I don't want to, what, right? What? Late at night, I just found it late afternoon, I just in a zone. Anyway, yeah, you listen to your body, and I'm way less stressed because I'm not worried about, oh my god, I have to get to bed at a certain time or wake up at a certain time. It's like, just kind of run with it, you know, and and go from there. So what's next for you? What's next? So I want to shift from going from speaking for free to speaking for a fee. There you go. And the re the reason why is I never asked for, and I'd even waive, you know, honorarium or pay because I got more value out of the leads. But now that I don't have an agency to represent, two things. One is, I want to get paid to do my employee engagement retention talks, because it's I'm getting great feedback on it, which is fun. But I also am being paid now by other agencies, a day rate, plus travel to go speak at the conferences. I've always spoken on that like me and want me and I just represent. I just changed the name that I'm representing. That's it, you know,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:56 well, and there's value in it. I realized some time ago, and I k

Project 2025 stands at the center of the most audacious effort to refashion the American federal government in a generation. Announced by the Heritage Foundation in April 2023, it's described by its architects as a “Mandate for Leadership,” a nearly 1,000-page policy blueprint orchestrated for the next conservative administration. Its goal is to radically re-engineer almost every corner of the federal bureaucracy, starting on day one after inauguration.The true scope of Project 2025 emerges in its detailed chapters—each targeting a federal agency, each brimming with concrete proposals and strict timelines. According to Heritage president Kevin Roberts, “We must tear apart the administrative state,” and his words echo through the policy pages. The plan's core principle is to place the executive branch firmly under direct presidential control. This means eliminating the independence of agencies like the Department of Justice, the FBI, and the Federal Communications Commission. Kiron Skinner, the main author of the State Department section, put it bluntly: “Most State Department employees are too left-wing. They should be replaced by loyal conservatives appointed to acting roles with no Senate confirmation required.”Listeners should note the mechanism behind this overhaul: Schedule F. This little-known hiring classification, revived for this project, lets the president move career civil servants into politically appointed roles stripped of traditional protections. As the National Federation of Federal Employees explains, “Schedule F wipes out the guardrails against political overreach or abuse of power.” The vision is clear—on January 20, 2025, the new president would sign a prepared stack of executive orders, dismiss hundreds of agency leaders, and flood offices with handpicked loyalists.Elon Musk's stewardship of the new Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) has served as the shock troops for these changes, reports Government Executive. Entire agencies, like the Consumer Financial Protection Board and USAID, have already been eliminated. In tandem, tens of thousands of federal workers have been laid off, with over 280,000 jobs cut or slated for elimination across 27 agencies. This restructuring, according to statements from the American Federation of Government Employees, represents “an attack on the very foundation of public service.” Return-to-office mandates and the downsizing of federal office buildings, often with little coordination, have further upended daily life for civil servants.President Trump's executive order from February 2025 codified much of the Project's ethos. The Department of Government Efficiency must reduce federal hiring to only essential positions, and for every four employees departing, only one replacement is allowed—excluding national security, law enforcement, and immigration. Agencies must draw up plans for large-scale reductions in force. Trump asserts this will shrink the government “for a new era of prosperity and innovation.”But the ambition doesn't stop at workforce reshuffling. Project 2025 targets environmental regulations, civil rights enforcement, and social policies. The Center for Progressive Reform warns that rollbacks across 20 agencies will have “devastating consequences for workers, the environment, public health, and the rights of millions.” Civil rights organizations like the Leadership Conference highlight proposals to gut the enforcement of key laws, eliminate disparate impact as a metric for discrimination, shut down diversity, equity, and inclusion offices, and retool the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission to prioritize “religious exemptions” and shield employers from DEIA mandates. The stated goal is to erase what the blueprint calls “managerialist left-wing race and gender ideology.”Supporters say these proposals will reclaim democratic accountability from an unelected bureaucracy and restore presidential power. “All federal employees should answer to the president,” says Kevin Roberts. Critics, however, see the project as authoritarian, calling it an unprecedented centralization of power and a threat to civil liberties, institutional independence, and separation of powers.As the country approaches key decision points in the months ahead, Project 2025 stands ready for rapid, high-impact implementation. It's not just a wishlist—it's a playbook, already in motion, with real consequences unfurling agency by agency and law by law. With court challenges underway and public debate intensifying, listeners can expect major milestones and consequences in the coming weeks.Thank you for tuning in, and be sure to join us next week for more insights and updates on America's changing governance.Some great Deals https://amzn.to/49SJ3QsFor more check out http://www.quietplease.ai

In episode 143 of White Canes Connect, hosts Lisa Bryant and David Goldstein welcome back Karthik Kannan, co-founder and CTO of Envision, for an exciting update on accessible technology. Karthik last joined the podcast four years ago to discuss Envision Glasses, then partnered with Google. Today, he returns to introduce the brand-new Ally Solos, a next-generation wearable that pushes accessibility to new heights. Karthik explains how Ally Solos builds upon the original concept of AI-powered glasses by combining sleek design, advanced performance, and affordability. Unlike many mainstream devices adapted after the fact, Ally Solos was created specifically for blind and low vision users, with features designed to improve independence and everyday life. From real-time text recognition and object description to seamless integration with a smartphone, Karthik highlights how the device's enhanced speed, voice output, and intuitive interface make it truly empowering. The conversation also touches on the importance of community feedback in shaping Envision's innovations, ensuring that products meet the real needs of blind users. With its accessible price point and thoughtful design, Ally Solos represents a major step forward in inclusive technology. Listen to discover how Envision continues to transform possibilities for the blind community. Preorder your Ally Solos at https://www.ally.me/glasses/.  Show notes at https://www.whitecanesconnect.com/143     NFB of PA State Convention Registration is Open Registration is now open for the 2025 NFB of PA State Convention in Harrisburg from November 13 to November 16 at the Best Western Premier! Learn more at https://www.nfbofpa.org/state-convention/. Go directly to the registration form at https://www.nfbofpa.org/register/. An Easy Way to Help the NFB of PA Support the NFB of PA with every purchase at White Cane Coffee Company by going to https://www.whitecanecoffee.com/ref/nfbp. When you use that link to purchase from White Cane Coffee, the NFB of PA earns a 10% commission! Share the link with your family and friends! Listen to Erin and Bob Willman from White Cane Coffee on episode 072 of White Canes Connect. Donate to the NFB of PA Like what you hear on White Canes Connect? Support us and donate to the National Federation of the Blind of Pennsylvania, visit https://www.NFBofPA.org/give/. We Want to Hear Your Story Reach out with questions and comments, or share ideas! We want to hear from you. Call us at (267) 338-4495 or at whitecanesconnect@gmail.com. Follow White Canes Connect Find out why White Canes Connect is currently ranked at #13 of the 100 Best Visually Impaired Podcast. Find the show on: Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/white-canes-connect/id1592248709  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1YDQSJqpoteGb1UMPwRSuI  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@pablindpodcast  Visit our website at https://www.whitecanesconnect.com/.

Did you know that there is a whole industry around the concept of helping deserving people and organizations to receive recognition through winning awards? In this episode we meet and get to know one of the foremost experts in this industry, Donna O'Toole. Donna grew up in the South of England in a real castle. At the age of 16 her family conditions changed, and she had to go to a home with four other girls who also lost their family arrangements. Donna had to go to work although she had wanted to go to university. Eventually she did get to earn her degree.   Donna studied linguistics and found ways to use her growing knowledge of the field. Eventually she discovered the value of recognition and how helping people and companies gain recognition made them better for the experience. She began working to help people and companies earn awards. She will tell us about this fascinating subject and why earning awards is important. She gives us statistics about how after working to win awards and the subsequent recognition sales and overall exposure usually grows.     About the Guest:   Donna O'Toole is an award-winning entrepreneur, international awards judge, and bestselling author of WIN! – the ultimate guide to winning awards. She's also the founder of August Recognition, a global leader in awards strategy and part of the Dent Global group, helping purpose-driven entrepreneurs stand out, scale up, and make a meaningful impact.   Named one of the Top 25 Customer Experience Influencers in the world, Donna has transformed the visibility and credibility of hundreds of businesses - from start-ups to FTSE 100 giants - by helping them win the recognition they deserve. Her clients span global brands, high-growth entrepreneurs, and inspirational leaders across every industry.   Donna is renowned for her outstanding success rate in the most prestigious awards in the world, including The King's Awards for Enterprise. She's passionate about the true value of awards - not just the trophy, but the trust, authority, and growth they generate.   Now, Donna is taking her mission even further. Together with her business partner and Dent Global co-founder Daniel Priestley, she's launching a pioneering new AI venture that's transforming the awards industry - making it safer, simpler, and smarter than ever for people to find, enter, and achieve the awards and recognition that matters.   Ways to connect with Donna:   https://www.augustawards.com/ - to get a free copy of my book: Win! and to get a Free awards list LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donnaotoole/ Instagram: @donnaot     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:17 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I am your host, Michael Hingson, and I think we'll have some fun today. We get to talk to Donna O'Toole, who is over in England, and she has a very interesting story to tell and a profession that she works at regarding awards. We'll get to all that in a bit. I don't want to give it all away, because it's more fun to listen to Donna tell it than it is to listen to me tell it. No one has ever said that I'm boring, but nevertheless, I always think that the people who come on the podcast are much more fun and interesting than I so I can't I can't argue with that, and of course, that's my job to make sure that happens. But anyway, here we are once again with unstoppable mindset. And Donna, I want to welcome you and thank you for being here.   Donna O'Toole ** 02:09 Thank you. It's great to be here with you. Michael, thank you.   Michael Hingson ** 02:13 And it's what about 930 in the evening? Or no, it's up 737   **Donna O'Toole ** 02:17 Well, it's   Michael Hingson ** 02:19 after dinner. Yeah. Well, thank you for being here. And we're, we're really glad to have the opportunity to do this. And so I'd like to start, it's so fun to always start this way. Tell us sort of about the early Donna growing up and all that. Ah, okay.   Donna O'Toole ** 02:35 Um, okay. So, well, I don't tell very many people this actually so secret. One for you, Michael, I actually grew up in a castle, which makes me sound like I lived in a fairy tale, but I didn't. It was definitely not a fairy tale, and I'm not a princess, so I'm sorry to disappoint anybody.   Michael Hingson ** 02:54 Well, what was it like growing up at a castle?   Donna O'Toole ** 02:59 It was, you know what? It's one of those things that when you're an adult, and you look back, you realize how amazing you were, it was, and how lucky you were. But when you're a child, it's just all, you know, isn't it? So, yeah, we were very lucky. I grew up in a town called Arundel, which is in the south of the UK. It's a very historic town, and the reason that I lived there was because my stepdad was the head groundsman at the castle, so he looked after all of the grounds for the Duke of Norfolk. And yeah, it was a it was a wonderful place to live. We used to be naughty and run around and go hiding in nooks and crannies that we shouldn't be. However, I was permanently petrified that there was ghosts and bats and all sorts of things like that.   Michael Hingson ** 03:48 So were there ghosts?   Donna O'Toole ** 03:49 Yes, definitely, certainly, they were making noises like ghosts, and we couldn't identify what they were. So, yeah, there's a few stories around that castle. Actually around I think there's a ghost of a lady in one in the library, and there is a ghost of a Labrador, actually, that people talk about seeing there as well. So I'm sure they were friendly.   Michael Hingson ** 04:14 Did you ever see any ghosts?   Donna O'Toole ** 04:16 I think I convinced myself that I did. On many occasion, my bedroom window looked out over Arundel Cathedral, which is was lit up at night, which looks very spooky. I used to be terrified to look out of the window at night, in case I saw something I didn't want to see.   Michael Hingson ** 04:36 So was the castle drafty and cold in the winter?   Donna O'Toole ** 04:40 Yes, definitely very stone and cold. And we had a ray burn. It's called, it's like an auger type thing where you just, you sort of heat up the kitchen by heating up this oven thing. Yeah, I remember putting wood in it. I remember that,   Michael Hingson ** 04:56 wow. Well, that was kind of fun. So how long did you. Live in the castle.   Donna O'Toole ** 05:00 So I lived in the castle until I was 16, and then her life took a bit of an unexpected turn at that point, and we had a difficult family breakdown that resulted in myself being actually taken into care for a while, so I didn't get to I did. I did finish school and finished my GCSEs exams as they were, but it did mean that I didn't get to continue on my education at that point, as I needed to earn some money and learn how to look after myself. So at 16, I was living in a home with four other girls who were in similar situations to me, which is girls who's through no fault of their own, their families couldn't look after them anymore. And we learned to, you know, live and survive and get through life together. And it was a great adventure. There was ups and downs, for sure, but actually at that point, I needed to get some work, and I also wanted to continue studying, so I ended up becoming an apprentice dental nurse, and that is where I started. And I never expected to go there. Wow.   Michael Hingson ** 06:24 I guess, I guess it is an adventure, though. Yeah,   Donna O'Toole ** 06:27 Life is an adventure, and you've got to be ready for whatever it throws at you. That's what I say. And   Michael Hingson ** 06:31 I think that's a good way to put it. I think that life's an adventure, and I think that we can choose how to look at life no matter what happens, and either we can think things are positive and grow with whatever occurs or not. Yeah, 100% 100% and   Donna O'Toole ** 06:46 actually, if it wasn't for that part of my life, I don't think I would be here today, doing what I'm doing now. So it's, it's incredible how you can't predict where life's going to take you, but you do go on a journey. So I actually became a dental nurse. And then I got bit bored of that, and my brain was always active, trying to think of something new to do. And I spotted a gap in the market for at the time dentists had there was just this legislation that changed that meant that dentists always had to have a nurse or a chaperone in the surgery with them, whereas before they hadn't had to have that. And so what was happening was you had all these small dental practices whereby the the dentist couldn't work if their nurse was on holiday or off sick or on maternity leave or something. So I spotted this gap in the market to be to start a dental nurse agency to fill those gaps, if you pardon the pun, and and to actually go all over Sussex and support the practices that needed help. So that was at the age of 19, I started my first business, and yeah, it was a great   Michael Hingson ** 08:00 success. I was just going to ask how successful it was.   Donna O'Toole ** 08:03 Yeah, it was great, and I really enjoyed it. And I got to know so many people. I trained nurses, which I really enjoyed as well. So I developed myself whilst I was developing them, which was great and and then after that, I I stopped that business and handed it over to some good friends who were brilliant nurses to have my children and to take a little break while I have my two daughters.   Michael Hingson ** 08:27 Now, did you ever get to university or college?   Donna O'Toole ** 08:31 Yeah, so then had my girls, and still I've got a very busy brain that needs a lot of occupying. So I thought, right, what can I do now? I've got two children under the age of four or five. I know I must need something else to do, so I decided to go back, finally, to university, and I studied linguistics, so English language linguistics at the University of Sussex in in the UK. And interestingly, it's incredible, because during that part of my life, I absolutely loved every part of it. I was really passionate about English, and as a child, I'd wanted to be an English teacher, but because my life had gone on a different path, it wasn't something that I'd been able to do. But actually, during that time, I studied large language models and computer mediated communication. And it just absolutely blows my mind that through making that decision and then further decisions later down the road, I'm actually now launching a company that is AI based that is containing large language models. So it's really, like, amazing how you can connect the dots in your in your journey.   Michael Hingson ** 09:45 And of course, you're calling it Donna GPT, right? I had to. I   Donna O'Toole ** 09:51 love it. I'm Michael. I am definitely calling it that now.   Michael Hingson ** 09:56 Well, that's, that is cool though.   Donna O'Toole ** 09:58 Yeah. So when I. Actually completed my degree. I came out of that and thought, right, well, I need to do some work now. And I started writing for businesses. I'm quite a business writer. I'm a real aura of people who can write fiction. I think that's incredible, yeah, but I'm definitely on the factual side. So I started business writing. Then I started, just by coincidence, started writing award entries for some businesses. I then started working with another awards agency, and I really saw, then the power of how awards and recognition helped people to reach their potential in business and in life, and so that then took me on my next journey.   Michael Hingson ** 10:47 Well, awards are, are interesting. And of course, we hear about awards for all sorts of things, but tell me more about the power of awards and where they where they can fit into society.   Donna O'Toole ** 11:00 Yeah. So, so we work from I work with business awards, so generally speaking, so even back then, it was sort of working with entrepreneurs, or entrepreneurial businesses, or even big brands, whereby they wanted to recognize their achievement and they wanted to raise their profile, so they needed to raise brand awareness, perhaps around what they do, their services, their products, and what's always quite I find quite interesting about awards is people who've never been involved in awards tend to come into them with quite skepticism, which is understandable. It's not a regulated industry, so you do have to be a bit skeptical and do due diligence around what awards you're entering. But they come into them with skepticism about themselves and actually whether they have what it takes to win. And very often, what I found was they did have what it takes to win, they just didn't have know how to communicate it in a way that others could understand that they had what it took to win. So my job, as I see it, is to really support them, to communicate their story, their data, their evidence, everything that they're doing, and turn that into a proposition that demonstrates why they would be exceptional at what they do, or their team is exceptional, their brand is exceptional, so that They can stand out in awards.   Michael Hingson ** 12:21 So it's almost like you're helping to train potential award recipients to respect what the awards are and what they do. Yeah,   Donna O'Toole ** 12:31 it is always understanding what they're looking for, what the criteria is, and how they can stand out against it. But also, you know, most people who are involved in a business, whether you're running a business or whether you're a part of a team or you're a manager, we don't have the time to stop and look back and think, wow, what have we done over the last year? What have we achieved? What you know, what's really standing out about us? We just don't give ourselves that time. So recognition and awards is a really good opportunity to stop and look back and celebrate together the development journey that you've been on in your business and and motivate your team and the people around you to do even more because you're recognizing it   Michael Hingson ** 13:13 well. So how did you actually get involved in doing awards in the first place? What that's a pretty unique sort of thing to take on.   Donna O'Toole ** 13:23 Yeah. So it was kind of a journey from starting out in business writing and then moving through into doing a few award entries, and then that became more and more, and then I worked for another organization. And then in 2016 I decided the time was right to launch my own company and to start supporting more people with awards. I was, had already been involved with the industry, so I was very well supported by some great awards in the industry. And so yeah, I I started my new business, and that was called August recognition. And because I'm a linguist, I like words that have extra meanings. And August actually means in its second sense of the word, when you're not using it as the month actually means respected and admired. So in my mind, I had started an agency that enabled people to be respected and admired for what they did, and help them raise their profile that way. So   Michael Hingson ** 14:24 you don't really hear a lot about the industry of helping people get awards, but I gather it's probably a fairly substantial industry around the world.   Donna O'Toole ** 14:35 Yeah, it's 10 billion pound industry in the awards industry in itself. It's 2 billion just in the UK. So yeah, it's a big, big industry. There's so many events connected to awards. There's so many different processes. So yeah, and there's, if you imagine, every different industry there is in the world there's awards for it. I dare you to find an industry where there's not an award. Yeah. Even,   Michael Hingson ** 15:02 I'm sorry, even, even AI. And that's pretty even AI, yeah, yeah. And so when AI starts generating its own awards, then we can probably worry a little bit,   Donna O'Toole ** 15:13 yeah, we're eating ourselves, yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 15:17 But still, it's, it's a fascinating, well, topic and industry to talk about, because I'm sure there's a lot to it. Of course, like with anything, there's also a lot of politics and all that sort of stuff, but, but it must be a fascinating industry to to be a part of and to see when you help somebody get an award. How does all that work? Yeah, so   Donna O'Toole ** 15:42 usually, well, we work with businesses from the smallest business in the world right through to the biggest business in the world, literally. And what I really love about the whole process is you, you as a small business, you can use the same strategies, you can enter the same awards as the biggest businesses can and you can win. So what I really love is that you you don't have to be a certain size, you don't have to be a certain type of business. You just need to be having an impact in some way on something, and then be able to tell It and Prove It, essentially.   Michael Hingson ** 16:19 So how do you as a person in the industry make your money or earn your money as part of all of this? So   Donna O'Toole ** 16:26 we work with clients who are looking for recognition. So for example, a brand may come to us and say, you know, over the last couple of years, we've done some great learning and development projects. We've trained our teams, we've digitized our processes, we've done all of these great things. We'd love to recognize the people that have worked so hard and really, you know, give them the recognition that they deserve. So we will then look at their project, look at their business. You know, what kind of impact has that had on it might be internally. It might be that it's had a great impact for their customers. It might be it's had a great impact for the impact. For the employees. And then we'll look at all of the data around that, and we will create, we will research which are going to be the best awards to recognize them, which criteria they match, which categories they match, and then essentially, we'll support them to execute all of the work that needs to go together to go into the awards process. Someone's once said to me, did you ever think you'd be running a business where you're basically writing exams every single day? Yeah, it's a bit like that. Fortunately, I don't do the writing anymore so, but yeah, I kind of love it.   Michael Hingson ** 17:36 Yeah. Well, it seems like it would be sort of your your writing exams every day, or you're involved in helping to prepare people for the exams.   Donna O'Toole ** 17:45 Yeah, it's very analytical from looking at what's been achieved, but then it's all about communication and how you're going to deliver that to the awards process. And it's all about finding the right awards that are going to give them the right recognition, that's going to really have a return on investment for the motivation of the team, for the brand awareness, whatever it is that their goals are, that they're hoping to get to.   Michael Hingson ** 18:06 Well, so awards in general, it seems to me, create a lot of recognition. And you say that recognition has the power to make people unstoppable? Tell me a little bit more about them. What that means to you? Yeah,   Donna O'Toole ** 18:24 absolutely. Um, something I call awards imposter syndrome, which is where, you know, often, and this typically is with entrepreneurs and smaller businesses. They they'll come to us and say, you know, I'd really love to get some recognition of my brand, but I really, I think we we're doing enough, or don't know if we're worth it or we could really stand out. And actually, you know, what we want to do is make them unstoppable. We we want them to see where all the power is in what they're doing and how they can make a difference in the world. So we will go and discover all of that about their business, and then help them to communicate it in a way that even now they can see what they're doing is brilliant. And then through that recognition, there's a lot of research to show the amount of motivation that awards bring to people, even more so than even a pay rise, you know. So through that recognition, it makes them feel more able. I always say to people you know, don't think about business awards right now. Think about the awards that you won when you were a child. Think about when you were at school and you entered awards in the swimming competitions or dancing competitions. Someone want someone told me today they won a competition for the best recorder player. I said I thought, I thought we had to ban recorders. But you know, when you got that recognition as a child, we didn't think, Oh, my goodness, I'm you know, do I really deserve it? I'm so shy. Let's not tell anyone about this recognition. We loved it, and it enabled us to go on and do more. So we want to do okay, we won that swimming competition. Let's do another swimming competition. Let's really learn our craft and do more and more of what we do better and better. Her and I liked people to try and think of that feeling that they had then and bring that into now with their business. You know, don't be humble about what you're doing, because the more that you can shout about your success, the more that you can help other people to achieve success through what you're doing, and the more you've got a platform to shine a spotlight on something that you believe in and that you want to make a difference in the world about. So, you know it, I call that, I say to people, you know, if you're feeling like a bit of an imposter about awards, one of the best things you can do is to create what we call a who wins when you win campaign. And what that is, is sort of putting a stake in the ground and making a pledge to say, when we win this award, we are going to go and do this great thing, and it might be we're going to go and do a team beach clean together. We're going to mentor some people. We're going to celebrate as a team and go out for the day, or we're going to plant some trees. You know, it could be anything that means something to you, but it's a really good opportunity to seal that recognition with something that reminds you that you are worth it and really helps you get over that imposter syndrome and celebrate your achievement.   Michael Hingson ** 21:14 I assume you also run into the other side of that, which are the people who just think by definition, because they are, whoever they are, they must deserve awards, whether, yeah, must be a lot of that. Yes. So   Donna O'Toole ** 21:27 a while back, because I'm a linguist, I interrogate language all the time. I can't help it. And I would look at, I judge a lot of award entries all from around the world. Judge the leading competitions in many countries. And I would look at these award entries, and I could tell what the person was thinking when they're writing the entry, as they're coming as you're reading it. And I developed these 10 personas of different types of people that enter awards. And so we've got everything from the imposter to the ostrich who wants to hide their head in the sand to the bridesmaid who's always the always, never quite makes it to the podium. And one of those actually is the peacock. And the peacock is the one who thinks they're going to win everything, and does come across like that, but isn't great about taking the feedback when they don't win.   Michael Hingson ** 22:20 Yeah, that's really the issue, isn't it? Right? It's they don't take the feedback, and they don't change what they do and why they do it and how they do it, to be a little bit more humble in what they're all about.   Donna O'Toole ** 22:33 Absolutely, absolutely. We've also got an awards persona called the politician, and that's somebody who doesn't answer any of the questions, and all their numbers don't add up.   Michael Hingson ** 22:46 Now, I wonder what my cat would think about awards. I wonder dogs are humble, but I don't know that cats are necessarily,   Donna O'Toole ** 22:56 yeah, they've definitely got a bit more persona going on, haven't they? I don't   Michael Hingson ** 23:01 know if they necessarily would be interested in awards, because they tend not to want to stand up in front of public and do stuff. That's   Donna O'Toole ** 23:07 true, that's true. Yeah, they're kind of yeah, they're their own creature, aren't they? They are, aren't they? I don't think they think they need awards, actually,   Michael Hingson ** 23:15 yeah, that's right. They don't think they need awards. They think that everybody should just recognize them for who they are,   Donna O'Toole ** 23:20 I might have to add a new persona to my league now.   Michael Hingson ** 23:26 Well, you know, there's, there's value in that, but, but still, so you've, you've helped a lot of people with awards. I wonder if you have a story that you could share where they've received recognition and it just completely changed their lives and what they did and what they do. Oh,   Donna O'Toole ** 23:49 so many, so many of those. Yeah. So, I mean, let's think of an example. So a few years ago, I was working, actually, it was interesting. I was I was introduced by on email, just to a gentleman called Andrew, who I was introduced by the Department of Trade and Industry here in the UK, who said he's got a great story. He's got a great business. He's growing fast. We think he should win some awards. We should talk to you. And so I was like, great. Let's get on a call, Andrew. And every time we booked a call, he didn't turn up to the call. And I thought, oh goodness, you know, it's like three attempts at this call and it's just not happening. And I just emailed him and said, look, it looks like you. Maybe you're not interested in winning awards, so, you know, catch up with me if you ever get the chance. And he emailed me back, actually, this is in the introduction of my books. And he emailed me back, and he said, Donna, I'm so so sorry. I'm going through a really difficult time at the moment. His wife had cancer. His son was being bullied at school, and he was really struggling, and he'd started a business that would have grown very quickly, whilst also as a side hustle, while. Also doing the job, and he was quite overwhelmed. And I said, he said, you know, and he actually said, so if I can't even turn up for a call, how could I possibly win an award? So I said, Oh, my goodness, okay, let me, let's get together, and I'll let you know whether you can win an award or not. But this is a big award we're talking about, because he'd actually been recommended to enter what was the Queen's Awards for Enterprise. It's now the king's Awards, which is the biggest and most prestigious business award in the UK, if not in the world. And I said, let's, you know, you've been recommended for this. Let's, let's at least explore it. So I went over to his house. We had a coffee, I went through everything of his business, and I said, You know what I do? Think you've got what it takes, but I don't think you're in the right mindset to be able to manage so let us help you. So he agreed, we worked on that project, and a year later, because that's how long it takes, I was absolutely delighted. He won the Queen's awards for innovation, and it was game changing for him. And what I really loved about it was, it's a couple of things. So one is because he's a techie person, and he had launched it was a software product that he'd developed. He'd put the logo for the award on his website, and he measured the impact that that was making on his website, which is really useful for me to know, because often people don't do that. And he got came back to me in a couple of months later, and he said, in three months, his sales have gone up by 30% because of the impact of winning this award. And you know, when you're running a business and you're trying to run a family and you've got other things going on that are really important, you need your sales to go up without you having to work harder, because it gives you the free time. It gives you the ability to employ people to support you. It gives you then the time back with your family when they need you most. So I was absolutely delighted for him that it had an impact on him and his business that would enable him to actually have the time that he needed with his family and help them and support them. So that was something that was game changing in my mind, for, you know, for a really personal reason. And I was delighted he was happy to share that in in my book. Yeah, so that that was a lovely one.   Michael Hingson ** 27:14 So what is kind of the common thread? Or, how do you what is it you see in someone that makes them award winning, that that genuinely makes them award winning, as opposed to the politicians and peacock   Donna O'Toole ** 27:28 Okay, so what it is is they need to be making an impact in some way. And I think people tend to be quite fixated on on measuring or looking at their customer service, but I'm looking at their customer impact. So what their customer impact is that's something customer service is transactional, right? Customer impact is transformational. So what is it that you're doing that is making a difference or making life easier in some way for your customers? Or it is could be internal as well. So it could be your employees, for example, but generally it's impact. Now, with Andrew's story, the software that he developed, it was the first software that had the biggest ability to, I mean, I'm not a techie, so I'm probably describing this in the wrong way, the ability to display charts and graphs with the biggest amount of numbers. So we think, Okay, well, why is that important? Well, these are the graphs and the charts that are going into ECG machines in hospitals. These are going into universities to do research. You know? These are going into all sorts of things, stocks and shares. They're going into Formula One racing cars. There's so many, there's so much impact coming out from having designed that software that it's having an impact on us as humanity, and that's the kind of golden thread that you want in your award, is, what is the impact that you're having, and where can you show and prove that it's making a difference to someone, somehow, somewhere?   Michael Hingson ** 28:56 And I assume there are, we've talked about it, but I assume that there are a lot of people who are award winners who never, just never thought they would be, even though they're, they're perfectly capable and, oh yeah, they're deserving, but they, they don't, they're not doing it to seek the award. They're doing it to do what they want to do.   Donna O'Toole ** 29:18 Yeah, and they need, they need the recognition to shine that you know, 90% of businesses are small businesses now, and it's a very noisy world out there when you're trying to sell your products and services, you need to be able to do something that helps you to cut through and to get into customers minds and build trust. 85 Nielsen did a study 85% of customers now want to see credible awards on your website, on your products, before they will have the trust layer there to buy from you. What's really interesting is, years ago, we had, you remember when reviews came out? So Amazon was one of the first organizations to do reviews. I actually studied. Reviews and the mechanisms and language structures in them. And we all trusted reviews at the beginning, because, oh, great, you know, someone's going to tell us what their experience was of this thing, and we love it. And then as time went on and as the decades have progressed, we then learned not trust reviews, because it was like, Oh, hang on, they might be fake reviews, or, you know, that could be a competitor, putting a bad review on a competitor. So there's lots of reasons then not to trust reviews. So then we go, oh, well, what do we trust? Then we can't just trust what the business is telling us. We need something that's external, that's third party, and that's going to enable us to trust that brand. And then what we saw then is the pandemic happened, and we all went to shopping online. We all went to living online, and we all saw businesses fall apart and lose money who we never expected to because they didn't have the digital transformation turn around quick enough, or for whatever reason, there was a lot of businesses that suffered in the pandemic, and a lot thrived, and since that then, it was almost like awards and reviews together became even more important to all of us, because we needed something to help us to trust the brands other than, you know, the strongest referral, which is a word of mouth referral. So if you haven't had a word of mouth referral and you've gone online and you found something through a search, how do you know whether you can trust putting your money into that business to buy its products or services? So this is really where we come back to recognition, to say, Well, no, this is a this brand gives excellent customer service, or this brand is a great place to work. It really looks after its employees. So there's a huge amount of reasons now why businesses do awards to demonstrate they are trustworthy in so many ways like nowadays. You know, we live in a world where employees want to work for organizations that will look after them and that will treat them well, so that employees looking for jobs will go out looking for the businesses that have got a great place to work accreditation or award because it makes them trust that they're going to be looked after. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 32:08 it's interesting. Nielsen did a study back in 2016 regarding brand brand loyalty and disabilities, and what they found was that people with disabilities are at least 35% more likely to stay with an organization and buy from an organization that has done things like really taken the Time to make their websites accessible and to make their their environment welcoming to people with disabilities, because it is so hard to oftentimes deal with companies they're they're companies that that I deal with their websites. They're just not accessible, and they don't want to change, and it's not magic to make them accessible, but they don't, and then there are other companies that do, and I agree with the Nielsen study. It makes perfect sense, because the reality is, you're going to steal with companies that that really take the time to show that they value you being there, yeah,   Donna O'Toole ** 33:17 well, it's interesting, actually, because I've been looking at this in the awards industry and accessibility, and it's something that I'm passionate about as well. And so we've just written a white paper, we've just done some research, commissioned some research, and we've just written a white paper on accessibility and awards, because we want people to be recognized, whatever, whoever, whatever they do, it shouldn't be saved for anyone who isn't, you know, doesn't have a disability or can't access their forms. You know, it should be open to absolutely everybody. So we've been looking into that now and seeing, you know, what is it that we can do to influence the industry to be more accessible and to really share recognition for all?   Michael Hingson ** 33:59 Yeah, well, and, and it's important, I think, to do that, because there have been enough statistics to show that roughly 25% of the population has some sort of a disability in the traditional sense of the word. Now, I have a different view than that. I believe that everyone on the planet has a disability, and for most people, their disability is you're light dependent. You don't do well in the dark, and if suddenly you're in a building and the power goes out or whatever, you scramble around trying to find a light source or a smartphone or a flashlight or whatever. But the reality is that all those light sources do is cover up your disability. On the other hand, I do recognize that there are people. We're in a minority by any standard, because we are, we are not the traditional, if you will, person. We do tend to be blind, or we tend to be deaf or hard of hearing, or we tend to be low vision, or we don't walk, and there are fewer of. Less than there are of the rest of you light dependent people, and so you don't recognize the disability that's there. But it's, it's important, I think, for people to recognize it. Because in reality, when people suddenly realize, Oh, I've got my own challenges, then you get to be more aware of and want to, at least a lot of times, think about ways to make the world a more inclusive place overall.   Donna O'Toole ** 35:27 I think that's such a great way of looking at it, and it really helps immediately. I couldn't see exactly what you you're saying is, yeah, 100% as soon as the lights go out, I'm completely incapable of knowing what to do next. So, yeah, you're absolutely right.   Michael Hingson ** 35:44 Yeah, it is. It is one of those things that we just don't deal with enough. But nevertheless, it's, it's there. So there, there are a lot of reasons to to deal with access, and that's why I work with a company called accessibe that has been they started smaller and narrower in scope, but they have become very robust in doing things to make the internet a more inclusive place. And so one of the things that they've learned is you can't do it all with AI, although AI can help. And so there are so many things to be done, but the reality is, there are a lot of different kinds of disabilities that really need the Internet to and website creators to pay attention to their needs, to make sure that they, in fact, do what's necessary to make the web accessible to those people. It's a challenge.   Donna O'Toole ** 36:40 It is, and we're going through that challenge at the moment, actually. So I'm just launching a new business, and it's called, it's an AI platform that's going to enable people to do exactly what we do as an agency, find, enter and win awards, but on a platform that is accessible to everybody. So it's aI enabled. But obviously, as you exactly say, that's not the end of the story. So there's a lot of work to do, and we're doing lots of research to find out what we need to do to make sure that that is accessible to everybody, because we want to enable more people to have a good chance of getting the recognition they deserve through a platform that enables them to do that, rather than perhaps miss out on really vital recognition that could help to promote what they do just because they can't access it.   Michael Hingson ** 37:31 Yeah, well, and it happens way too, way too often. Yeah. And it's not like it's magical to make the web more inclusive. It's just that a lot of people don't know how to do it. Although the information is readily available, they just don't consider it a priority.   Donna O'Toole ** 37:48 Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, we're really putting this front and center. My business partner is Daniel Priestley. He's just been on the driver CEO actually talking about the AI side of it. So together, we're really working at trying to join all the dots so that we get all the right technologies in there and ways of working. So I'll be getting you beta testing that. Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 38:14 absolutely. And if there's any way to help, I am very happy to help. Thank you. So Don't, don't hesitate to reach out. So we will. We've now said that publicly for the whole world, that's all right. So what do you say to the person who says winning an award is just not for   Donna O'Toole ** 38:33 me? I think often, you know, I was thinking about this earlier, actually, and I was thinking, you know, there's different things that we're all in favor of and all not in favor of most of the time, when I come across people who say a winning awards is not, for me, is they either haven't been involved in an awards process before, or they feel a bit shy of it and like a bit of an imposter. And, you know, it's a risk, isn't it? You're putting yourself up to be judged, ultimately. So it does take a bit of courage, and it takes a bit of reflection. So, you know, I say, Look at what impact you're having, you know, go away and see, have you got impact on your customers? Somehow, have you got impact on your community? Somehow? It doesn't all have to be about transactional business. It could be that actually you're doing something great for the environment or sustainability or for a community source or for charity, you know, so what are you doing that's making a difference, and it could recognition help you to do more of that? Could it give you the spotlight to enable you to do more of that purpose? Because if it could, then why not, you know, why not do it and get some recognition?   Michael Hingson ** 39:36 Yeah, well, and that makes sense. And but some people may still just continue to say, well, I don't really think I've done that much, and so it isn't for me.   Donna O'Toole ** 39:47 Yeah, absolutely. And you'll always have people who don't want to do everything at the end of the day, you know, it's probably, realistically, it's probably, you know, the top 10% of businesses that are looking to win awards because they're already in that zone or. Where they're, you know, they're growing, they're they're trying to transform. They're always jumping on the next best thing. So, you know, it's a good way to benchmark ourselves as well, and to say, you know, how can I progress this year? Well, what would it take for me to win this particular award? Let's say, let's have a look at what it would take, and let's see if we can get to the business, to that stage, because that way you can develop the business first, before you even think of entering the award, so that you have got the impact, and you have got, you know, all the right things to show that you're making a difference.   Michael Hingson ** 40:31 Yeah, and you brought up a point earlier, which I think is extremely interesting, the whole issue of awards and reviews, one of the things that I do when I'm looking at buying a product that I'm not overly familiar with is I love to look at the worst reviews for the product. Yeah, they're the most fun, because you find out really quickly. If you look at those reviews, you find out whether the person really knows what they're talking about or not and whether they really got good arguments. And I find that the people who give the bad reviews generally are, are not, are not necessarily, really giving you substantive information that you can use.   Donna O'Toole ** 41:15 Yeah, exactly. That's often the way I am. I actually studied reviews, and I looked at the different language structures and reviews of different retail stores, and how, how the the language that the people used in their reviews influenced the buyers. And it was really funny, because this is back in the days. This is just when I was at university. I was doing my dissertation, and it was what we were looking for. What I was looking for was what represent, what people felt represented good value for money. Because no matter how much money you've got, whether you've got a pound to spend or 1000 pounds to spend, you just want to get good value for money for what you're spending. So it doesn't really matter how pricey the product is. It matters your perception of good value for money, and that's essentially what tends to come across in a review, even if people don't say it is whether they think it's good value for money or not, whether it's the brand or the actual product. And it was really funny, because I did this whole study, and I came up with a structure that retailers should use to give to their reviewers to then put the review in in the most helpful way possible for the people then looking at the reviews who want to purchase the product, and I it was great, and I was really happy with it, and got first class and all of that. Anyway, a while later, I bought a coat from a store called Debenhams in the UK, which is now only online. But I bought this coat, I wrote a review and put it on their website. And it was quite the early days of reviews. Still, two days later, Debenhams called me, and I couldn't believe it, because when you had to leave your review, you had to leave your name and number, and it was like, I said, it's a very new thing then. And they actually telephoned me, and they said, Hello, we want to say thank you for your review that you left about this coat, and I still have the coat. And because, because of your review, we sold out the product. And so we want to say thank you. So we're sending you a voucher. And I got this voucher through the post. And I mean, you wouldn't get that, I don't think nowadays, no, but it really showed me the difference that a review could make on a product back then, you know, and how writing the right type of review, not just saying it's great, but why it's great, why I considered it good value for money about the material and the sizing and the shape and all of the quality and that kind of thing. It gave people reassurance to buy, and that's what we're looking for when we're looking at reviews. And that's where awards can come in and kind of secure that trust as well. I don't know about you, but I get down rabbit holes with reviews on things like trip,   Michael Hingson ** 43:52 oh yeah. Well, what I found is, if I look at the positive, the best reviews, I get more good technical information, and I got and I get more good product knowledge, but then I look at the bad reviews, and the reason I look at those is I want to see if they truly are giving me the same information the other way, and they don't. They're it's totally emotional, and a lot of times it is just not, in fact, what I or others find with the products, and that the bad reviews tend not to really give you nearly the information that the bad reviewers think they're giving you if you if you read them carefully. And I think that gets back to your whole issue of studying language, but still, they're not giving you the information that they really ought to be giving you. And, you know, I've had some where somebody gave a bad review to a product because the box arrived and it was open or wasn't sealed. Well, yeah, all right, so what   Donna O'Toole ** 44:55 exactly I know it's ridiculous. I mean, I think we're as consumers a bit more. Pragmatic about it nowadays, but as businesses, we need to be able to demonstrate to our customers in every way possible, you know. And that's why social media now and user generated content is so popular. Because we don't want to see what it looks like on a model anymore. We want to see what it looks like on a real life, personal we want to hear someone's like real life, day to day experience of something, as opposed to a polished article on it, right,   Michael Hingson ** 45:26 which, which is, is the way it ought to be. And again, that gets back to substance. And the the people who give really good reviews are generally the ones that are giving you substance. I've had some bad reviewers that had very good reasons for why they feel the way they do. And then you look at it and you go, Well, maybe it doesn't fit in their situation or, aha, they really know what they're talking about. I'm going to take that into consideration when I look at buying this product or not. But a lot of them   Donna O'Toole ** 45:57 don't. Absolutely, no, absolutely, yeah, I could do this for days.   Michael Hingson ** 46:04 Yeah. Well, it is. It is fascinating, but it's part of human nature   Donna O'Toole ** 46:09 psychology, isn't I tell you when else it comes up and it's quite interesting. So often we make companies may approach us and say, Leo, we want to win awards to be the best place to work. And we'll say, okay, great, you know, tell us about the workplace, and we'll go through all these different criteria with them, and they tell us all this great stuff. And then we go and do our own research as well, because we need to verify this, right? And we go on to glass door, and then we see some horrendous reviews from employees that have left. I think, okay, maybe this is, maybe this is not quite all the story we're getting here. Yeah. So, you know, the thing with awards is, if you are saying anything about your business, you're going to have to prove it. So reviews from your customers and reviews from your employees are super important for awards. Actually,   Michael Hingson ** 46:59 I find as a speaker that letters of recommendation are extremely important. In fact, I even put it in my contract that if someone likes the talk, then I expect to get a letter of recommendation. And for a good amount of people, they do that, although I've had some people who forget or just don't. But the letters are extremely valuable, especially when they go into detail about not just the talk, but like in my case, I view when I visit a customer, or when I view when I talk about going to speak somewhere, I believe that I'm a guest like anyone who goes, and it's not about me, it's about them. It's about the event. It's about the people who are putting it on. It's about the audience. And I always want to make sure that I do everything I can to be as not a problem as possible. And I know that there are some people that don't do that. I had a I had an event once where I went and spoke, and while there, I talked to the person who brought me in, and I said, What's the most difficult speaker you ever had? Had come here? And I was just curious. I was curious to see what he say without any hesitation. He said, We had a woman who came to speak, and we honored the contract, although still don't know why, but she insisted that in the green room, and so there had to be one, but in the green room there had to be a brand new, never used crystal champagne flute full of pink M M's. Now what does that have to do with being a speaker? Well, I know some people just like to take people through the wringer. They want to try to drive the point home that they're the bosses. Well, I think that, you know, I know what I can do. What I said to the guy, though afterward I said, Well, okay, I hear you. They actually did find peak Eminem. So was interesting. I said, Well, let me just tell you that if you bring cheese and crackers, I'll share them with you.   49:10 They brought you that we had fun, yes,   Michael Hingson ** 49:13 but, you know, but, but he, he understood that there were no demands. I wouldn't do that. I just think that that's not what I'm supposed to do as a speaker. My job is to in a well, inspire and motivate and and to educate. But it's not my job to be difficult. And I've gotten some wonderful letters that say how easy I made it to work with them, which is great. Yeah, fantastic. I'm sure you did. So it's, it's a lot of fun to to see some of those, and I've gotten some great stories over the years, which is really   Speaker 1 ** 49:46 a lot, and that's why they love to have you. Well, I hope so   Michael Hingson ** 49:53 we still do it, and it's a lot of fun to help and motivate and inspire. But yeah, I. I and by the way, I guess I'd never be interested in pink M M's anyway, so I wouldn't see the colors. So,   Donna O'Toole ** 50:08 yeah, glass of water is just about the thing on my list.   Michael Hingson ** 50:12 Yeah, well, you know, I'll take M M's if they show up. And I'm not going to demand them, that's okay. But you know, people are interesting. So once somebody's won an award, you've talked about this some, but when I once somebody has won an award, what's next?   Donna O'Toole ** 50:28 So next, it's all about, well, sharing it to demonstrate why people often forget to tell people why they've won an award. They just say that they've won an award. I think it's important to say, why? Like, what is it? What is it? What impact are you having? What's the difference that you're making out there in the world? Why have you won and share that on your profile? As I said, you know, people buy from people now as well. If you're winning an award as a leader or as a speaker or as an entrepreneur, you know people want to know about that because it helps to give credibility to what you do and trust like, just like those letters of referral that you're talking about. So, you know, get that on your LinkedIn profile, get it onto your podcast, you know, all of those different things, and take pride in your work and share that   Michael Hingson ** 51:14 I had a salesperson I hired is my favorite sales guy, and when I asked him, as I asked everybody who came to apply for jobs, what are you going to be selling for us? Tell me about that. He is the only person who ever said, The only thing I really have to sell is myself and my word. Your product is stuff, and it's all about trust and it's all about honoring my word. And he said, The only thing I asked from you is that you backed me up. And I said, well, as long as you do a good job, you know, but he understood it, and he's actually the only person that I ever hired that really articulated that, but that was always the answer I was looking for, because it really told me a lot about him. Just that simple answer told me more about him than anything else anyone, even he could say,   Donna O'Toole ** 52:06 yeah, absolutely. So it's so important, and you know, so I'm part of a key person of influence program that Daniel Priestley runs, and it's I do profile coaching for entrepreneurs to help them to become a key person of influence in their in their industry. And now that's not being an influencer. That's being someone who's known for being good at what they do and being a key person in that industry. And you know, work flows to you if people know what you do and know who to come to because you're the expert in that area, if you're a small business, you're an entrepreneur, you're struggling to get leads, then actually maybe you need to make yourself put bit more known. People tend to be bit shy and hide behind their brand. But you know, if you look at people like Richard Branson, you know, we when you trust an entrepreneur, then you will buy from the brand. And there's many more entrepreneurs I could mention, who when the trust is lost with them because of their behavior in some way, then their brand suffers. It's quite clear to see, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 53:09 do you find that most people who win an award do carry on and do positive things as a result, and that their brand and what they do improves, or is some people win and just falls by the wayside.   Donna O'Toole ** 53:27 Generally speaking, if you're the people that are going in for awards, the brands that are going forwards, they're progressive, so they usually progress with it. There's a piece of research that shows that businesses that have won awards are around 77% more valuable than businesses without awards even five years after winning. And that's because when you're going for an award in business, you've got to do a lot of develop. You know, there's got to be some good stuff happening in your business. And so naturally, the businesses that are doing those good things want to keep doing more of those good things internally, and so they tend to keep driving the business forward. And they have that motivation. They have motivated teams who are being recognized for the work that they're doing, and all of that naturally pushes them forward. So in five years time, they're still leagues ahead of their competitors that are not winning awards.   Michael Hingson ** 54:20 So always worth exploring winning awards. Oh, 100% Yeah. If   Donna O'Toole ** 54:27 I always say, I think, quote Nelson Mandela on this, you've got nothing to lose. You'll either win or you'll learn. If you don't win, then you should learn something about what you do need to do to win, and that will bring your business on.   Michael Hingson ** 54:39 Absolutely agree it's like, I also believe there's no such thing as failure. Failure is really it didn't go the way you planned. And so what do you learn in order to make that not happen again?   Donna O'Toole ** 54:51 Yeah, exactly, that exactly. So we need that kind of resilience in business today,   Michael Hingson ** 54:57 if people listening and watching this. Just take away one lesson and get one piece of advice out of this. What should it be?   Donna O'Toole ** 55:04 Understand your impact? I would say people don't often understand their impact. So ask your customers, ask your employees, what's improved since we've been working together? What? What if? What's improved for you since you've been using our product? And then calculate up what is that impact that you're having? You know, if 90% of your customers are saying that since using your product, I don't know, they're they're they're having a better their their accounts are better, or their skin is better. You whatever it is your product or your service is, then you've got impact that you're having. So start investigating what that impact is, and then that will help to steer you towards which kind of awards you could potentially be winning as well.   Michael Hingson ** 55:47 And of course, if you really think about your impact and whoever you are and whatever business you're doing, and you do monitor that, then that's one of the most important things that you can do about your business anyway, and people should be doing that.   Donna O'Toole ** 56:01 Yeah, exactly. But probably 90% of people that come to me aren't measuring their impact, and so it's a surprise, but I always say, Well, if you don't know what your impact is, how do you know that what your product or your services works? Just because people are buying it, you still need to know what your impact is. How do you measure impact? Oh, you can measure it in so many different ways, and you want in awards to be able to demonstrate it both quantitatively and qualitatively. So typically, in large corporate organizations, they will be measuring impact. So there's something called net promoter scores. So, you know, they'll be asking customers, would they recommend them? They'll ask them what they're enjoying about their products and things. So they tend to have some kind of measurement built into their process, in their customer departments, however, in smaller businesses, often they don't. So I say, you know, draw up a simple survey, ask your customers what's changed since you've been working with us. Let's say you're a service provider. So are you less stressed since you've been working with us? Do you have more revenue coming in since you've been working with us? What is it? And get them to answer a little survey. And then you could go all this collective impact that you can put together to look at the percentages and see what that's telling you. And if you don't want to know what the impact is in your business, then I question why you don't want to why   Michael Hingson ** 57:16 you're in the business in the first place, exactly. Well, tell us about your book. You've mentioned books several times, yeah.   Donna O'Toole ** 57:23 So I wrote a book called Win, of course, raise your profile and grow your business through winning awards. And really, it's a toolkit for for entrepreneurs. I was working with a lot of large businesses, and, you know, I was conscious that small businesses don't always have the resources to win awards or to be able to outsource. So I wrote a book that they could use to follow the toolkit, essentially, of winning awards. So that's developing their strategy, knowing understanding how awards work and which ones would suit their business, setting awards goals, understanding criteria. What does innovation really mean? What do they want to see? What kind of evidence do I need to provide? How do I know if it's the right race for me? All of those things. So it takes you end to end, through the awards journey internationally. You know, no matter where you are, you can follow the same process, and you could nowadays, it's really important to become the most award winning in your sector, so you can follow the process to get there. And that's a hugely valuable tagline.   Michael Hingson ** 58:26 And I appreciate that you sent us a picture of the book cover, and it is in the show notes. I hope people will go get   Donna O'Toole ** 58:31 it absolutely and it is on Audible as well, so that everyone can access it. So yeah, enjoy listening to my voice a lot more.   Michael Hingson ** 58:39 I was just going to ask if you read it. I did read it for you.   Donna O'Toole ** 58:44 Do you know what it was? I was so proud of that I was more proud of the audible recording than I was of writing at the book. But I don't know why. I think it's because I actually really enjoy listening to books on audio. So I'm quite passionate about listening. I like listening to the actual author's voice, though. So I found I was quite interesting, actually, when I found, when I recorded it, that was quite good at recording audio. The studio guy that I was working with was like, Oh, you're really good at this. We could just drop it words back in if there was a mistake.   Michael Hingson ** 59:14 There you are. See, it is so much better to edit today than it used to be, because now it is. It is all electronic, and I, I edit from time to time, just different things and all that I don't we work on not editing the podcast. That is, I don't want to cut out part of a conversation, because it is a conversation, but, but now you can do so many things, like, if there's a lot of noise, you can even filter that out without affecting the camera. It is so cool.   Donna O'Toole ** 59:43 Yeah, very, very clever. So, yeah, get it on Audible. There you   Michael Hingson ** 59:47 go. Well, great. Well, I hope people will Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and you should get an award for doing it. That's all there is to it. But I really appreciate you being here. And. I appreciate all of you out there listening to us and watching us. Love to get your thoughts. How do people reach out to you? Donna, if they'd like to to talk with you,   Donna O'Toole ** 1:00:09 absolutely. So you can con

The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported the Consumer Price Index (CPI) and Core CPI; the National Federation of Independent Business (NFIB) released the NFIB Small Business Optimism Index; Kevin has the details, looks at the data, digs through the information, puts it all into historical perspective and offers his insights, as well as an opinion or two. Crude oil and gas prices reacts to the U.S. and China extending the tariff pause until November, upcoming Trump-Putin talks on Friday, the CPI and Core CPI, OPEC upgrading the 2026 oil demand growth forecast and the anticipated Energy Information Agency report.

How optimistic are small business owners feeling? We check in with Leah Long, director of the Louisiana chapter of the National Federation of Independent Businesses (NFIB), about a new report and what their biggest concerns are.

The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported the Consumer Price Index (CPI) and Core CPI; the National Federation of Independent Business (NFIB) released the NFIB Small Business Optimism Index; Kevin has the details, looks at the data, digs through the information, puts it all into historical perspective and offers his insights, as well as an opinion or two. Crude oil and gas prices reacts to the U.S. and China extending the tariff pause until November, upcoming Trump-Putin talks on Friday, the CPI and Core CPI, OPEC upgrading the 2026 oil demand growth forecast and the anticipated Energy Information Agency report.

Dr. William Dunkelberg, Chief Economist, National Federation of Independent Business

Meet Tricia Copeland. She is an award-winning author of books for youth and young adults. Mostly she writes fantasy books, but as we learn during this episode, she also does write some romance books.   Tricia says that as a child she hated writing. Even so, she went to school and eventually she went to college where she received a degree in Microbiology. She also attained a Master's degree. She then went to work for a chemical company. After four years she found herself beginning a journey of technical writing and writing patterns and supporting materials.   After a few years Tricia became a stay-at-home-mom for a time. She tells us how she loved to tell stories and entertain her children.   We learn how she wrote her first fiction book series in 2015-16 about her time facing anorexia. In real life, she faced this and overcame it. She then began writing fantasy youth books and realized not only that she could write, but that she did not hate writing at all. She has written several series and has plans for more.     About the Guest:   Tricia Copeland is the critically acclaimed and award-winning author of Kingdom of Embers, To be Fae Queen, Lovelock Ones, and Azreya, Aztec Priestess, and dozens of other titles. She is the host of the Finding the Magic Book Podcast who weaves magical stories about love, courage, and finding your passion.   Tricia began her author journey with a women's fiction series, the Being Me series, which is an adaptation of her experience with anorexia. Afterwards she quickly pivoted to her favorite genre, fantasy. Her young adult fantasy series highlight themes including resilience, perseverance, faith, loyalty, trust, friendship, family, and love. They include the Kingdom Journals and Realm Chronicles series that find witches, vampires, and fae fighting an evil spirit determined to end them all. She tempers the high stakes drama in these books with her fun rom coms in the Perfect romance series.   Tricia Copeland believes in finding magic. She thinks magic infuses every aspect of our lives, whether it is the magic of falling in love, discovering a new passion, seeing a beautiful sunset, or reading a book that transports us to another world. An avid runner and Georgia native, Tricia now lives with her family and four-legged friends in Colorado. Find all her titles including contemporary romance, now penned under Maria Jane, young adult fantasy, and dystopian fiction at www.triciacopeland.com.   Ways to connect with Tricia:   https://triciacopeland.com https://www.facebook.com/TriciaCopelandAuthor/ https://www.instagram.com/authortriciacopeland/ https://twitter.com/tcbrzostowicz https://www.tiktok.com/@triciacopelandauthor https://www.youtube.com/@triciacopelandauthor https://www.amazon.com/stores/Tricia-Copeland/author/B00YHN5Q4G https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/14055439.Tricia_Copeland https://www.bookbub.com/authors/tricia-copeland     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.     Michael Hingson ** 01:17 Well, hello everyone. We're really glad to have you here, wherever you may happen to be listening in from. We're really glad that you're listening to unstoppable mindset. I'm your host, Michael hingson, and our guest today is Tricia Copeland. Tricia is a prolific author. I use that word absolutely without any any concern, a prolific author of children's books, especially in the fantasy world. So she has been doing this a while and and also has an interesting story just of her life to tell. So we're going to go into all of that and delve in and see where we go. So Tricia, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Tricia Copeland ** 02:05 Thank you, Michael, I appreciate you having me, and I do want to make a little edit to that intro. Okay, go ahead. My books are young adult to New Adult books, so ages 13 plus mostly, all right,   Michael Hingson ** 02:19 so young adult to new adult. All right, that's fair. So how do you feel that your books fall into the range of things like the Harry Potter series and so on, sort of the same age groups,   Tricia Copeland ** 02:40 right? Genre adjacent, I have a series, The Kingdom Journal series, which includes three witches that have to break a curse on the witch lines. So the witches have to find each other as well as figure out how to break the curse using various forms of magic. So not really the same as Harry Potter, but definitely with with the witches, and the kind of contemporary world that Harry Potter is. But actually, I won't say that, because I haven't I think Harry Potter is mostly in the contemporary world, right? I didn't read all the books. I have to admit that he's   Michael Hingson ** 03:18 somewhat in the contemporary world, but, but I was thinking more of from a standpoint of the same type of age group.   Tricia Copeland ** 03:25 Yes, I think a younger reader. I think people started reading Harry Potter maybe around 10 or 11. And these books have older teenagers to start, age 1718, so 13 Plus is a good indicator. I think the other   Michael Hingson ** 03:42 thing I would observe about Harry Potter is that there are a lot of people who aren't necessarily teenagers or young adults, including me, who have read them and enjoyed them. I think that that Harry Potter certainly brought an interesting dimension to reading for teenagers especially, and hopefully young adults, because a lot of people did catch on to them, and they they had a great theme, and you do some of the same sorts of things by virtue of the fact of what you're writing and who you're writing it for,   Tricia Copeland ** 04:17 right? They definitely caught adult eyes and hearts and minds too   Michael Hingson ** 04:23 well, tell us somewhat about the early Trisha growing up and so on. Love to learn a little bit more about you, and then we can talk about whatever we feel is relevant to talk about the early Tricia,   Tricia Copeland ** 04:35 right? Well, I grew up in rural South Georgia, small town in south Georgia, and always loved reading and hiking and the outdoors, and very quickly, knew that maybe I didn't want to be in a small town forever. So I went to college in Atlanta, and I got a degree in microbiology, and from there, I got a master's. Degree, and I started my career in Central Research and Development at a chemical company, a large chemical company. So I was looking at making chemicals from microbes. And that was very exciting. That was my dream job that I'd always wanted. So that was very cool to be able to achieve that goal, and I actually didn't like writing until I started doing more technical writing with papers and patents.   Michael Hingson ** 05:29 Technical writing can be boring, but people could make it more exciting than oftentimes they do. I would say I've had to do some of it. I understand   Tricia Copeland ** 05:39 well, you have to like the topic, right? If you don't like the topic, you're not going to like the paper,   Michael Hingson ** 05:45 right? But also, I think that a lot of technical writers write and it's all very factual, but I think even in technical writing, it would be better if writers could do some things to draw in readers. And I've always felt that about textbooks. For example, my master's degree and bachelor's degree are in physics, and I've always maintained that the the physics people who write these books, who are oftentimes fairly substantial characters in in the genre, if you will, or in the field, could do a lot more to interest people in science and physics by rather than just doing these technical books, telling some stories along the way, and bringing people in and making people relate more to the topic. And they don't do that like I think at least that they should.   Tricia Copeland ** 06:36 I guess that can be said, maybe for every technical Yeah. Area,   Michael Hingson ** 06:43 yeah, it would be nice if technical writers spend a little bit of time, but of course, then the other side of it is that the industry doesn't want that. So what do you   Tricia Copeland ** 06:54 do? It may be a catch 22 on that one   Michael Hingson ** 06:56 might be, but that's okay. So how long did you stay working at the tech at the chemical companies and so on?   Tricia Copeland ** 07:06 I was in the lab for four years, and then I moved into the patent Legal Group. So I began my career as a Patent Agent, and now that's what I do for a living. My day job is that I help clients draft and file their patent applications.   Michael Hingson ** 07:22 So you have your own business doing that. I do, yes, oh,   Tricia Copeland ** 07:28 well, I write by day and I write by night.   Michael Hingson ** 07:32 Yeah, well, that can be pretty exciting, though. You get all sorts of interesting things to write about. I   Tricia Copeland ** 07:40 do I meet a lot of cool people that are inventing cool things.   Michael Hingson ** 07:44 So here's the question, do you ever find that what you write about during the day influences you, and you want to use some of that, or the general concepts of some of that, at night, when you're doing your your fiction writing?   Tricia Copeland ** 07:58 I haven't done that yet, I did write one dystopian fiction about a viral pandemic, and that touched on a little bit of my background in microbiology and genetics, but not anything that my clients have done   Michael Hingson ** 08:19 well. So you got into the patent field when you when you started doing that initially, were you doing it for a company, or did you just leap out on your own and start to have your own business?   Speaker 1 ** 08:30 Yes, I was doing that for a company. Okay? And how long did you do that? I was at that company   Tricia Copeland ** 08:35 about a year and a half. And at the time, we lived in Pennsylvania and outside of Philly. So then we had a job change, and we moved to Denver, so I took a little time off to be with my kids before I started my business.   Michael Hingson ** 08:53 So how long ago did you start the business?   Speaker 1 ** 08:57 In 2012 so 13 years doing it a while? Wow,   Michael Hingson ** 09:01 okay, and obviously you're having some success because you're still doing it.   Tricia Copeland ** 09:05 I am. Yes, I love helping my clients, and feel like I can definitely give them a value add   Michael Hingson ** 09:14 if you're not giving something away. What's probably the most interesting patent that you helped somebody work on attaining   Tricia Copeland ** 09:24 I will say, I worked with an inventor a year ago, and amazing man, he had had his career in education and teaching, and he developed a set of blocks to help people or Help kids. I should say, learn the parts of speech so you could put the together, the blocks, whether it was a subject, verb, pronoun, noun, adjective, adverb, and I learned parts of speech that I never knew existed from helping them with this application, and I was very excited. To help him get his patent. That's kind of cool.   Michael Hingson ** 10:04 Yeah, I am fair. I'm not sure I know all the parts of speech, but I remember being involved in high school well and in elementary school and diagramming sentences and learning a lot about the different or a number of the different parts of speech. Not sure I necessarily remember all of them extremely well, so I probably split infinitives and well, what do you do?   Tricia Copeland ** 10:28 Yes, I hated sentence structures.   Michael Hingson ** 10:35 Well, so what got you started then, since you were writing patents for people and so on, and helping people in securing patents. What got you then started in dealing with fiction writing, right?   Tricia Copeland ** 10:49 Well, when my kids were very young, I was a stay at home mom, and most of my days were spent chasing them around, occupying them, entertaining them, shuttling them from one place to another. So I realized in the evenings I was bored. I did my mind didn't have enough to occupy it. And I was about, I think it was about 38 and, you know, looking at my 40 year old birthday and thinking, huh, well, and I maybe it was like my 20 year high school reunion. I don't know why it coincide coincided, but I started thinking about my early college years I developed anorexia, and thinking about that time in my life and how poignant it was that I was able to recover from that disease and really gain some life skills from that experience. So I started a story that was a fictionalized account of my experience with anorexia and recovering for anorexia. So my first series, called the being me series, is a four book series about a character named Amanda who develops anorexia and then is able to recover.   Michael Hingson ** 12:01 So what caused if you understand, or, man, I don't know a lot about anorexia, Anorexia, and probably have some misconceptions about what I'm about to ask, but what, what caused it? Why did you develop that condition?   Tricia Copeland ** 12:16 Well, there's a lot of I mean, it happens differently for a lot of people, I think anorexia is a lot about control and having control over your environment. And I got there was a number of factors that I was depressed and not happy about not feeling like I was achieving, maybe what I should be achieving, and instead of someone might have turned to alcohol or drugs to alleviate those stressful feelings. I channeled all that into Okay? Well, if I'm just thin and if I just look good enough, then everything will be fine. And obviously, once your brain starts to get in that cycle, it just compounds on itself. You can't stop yourself from thinking that way. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 13:05 and what helped you get out of doing that? Was it writing or what? What really caused you to realize that ain't the way to go?   Tricia Copeland ** 13:16 Yeah, I almost died. That was it very it was a low point. And really, you know, if I didn't do something different, if I didn't let people help me do something different, I would not have made it. So really, you know, a lot of that is like educating people how serious eating disorders are, as well as how helpless sometimes the person that is experiencing them is in being able to help themselves.   Michael Hingson ** 13:48 And you said that this happened somewhat in your your college years.   Tricia Copeland ** 13:53 Yes, I was 20.   Michael Hingson ** 13:56 Were there a lot of pressures were, were people criticizing you in any way that helped contribute to it, or was it sort of really   Tricia Copeland ** 14:04 internally? Part of it was internally. Part of it was, you know, what I thought people's expectations I was in. I was at a engineering school and I was a biology major, so maybe that wasn't the best place for me. Everybody was very high in performing. Yeah, yeah. There are many, many factors, I think, and just my my brain that was not processing things, maybe as realistically as they could have been processed.   Michael Hingson ** 14:33 But what you eventually did about it was to write a series about it, so clearly you were able to move beyond it, and then, if you will, talk about it,   Tricia Copeland ** 14:45 right, right? So I went into inpatient recovery, and then was able to get the help that I needed with therapist and psycho psychiatrist and support groups, and that was a big help. And then, yes, 20 years later, I. Wrote a series about it.   Michael Hingson ** 15:02 Well, that's pretty cool. And again, it's I'm always one who admires people who are able to and willing to talk about things. I went to an event last year was the Marshfield, Missouri Cherry Blossom Festival, and the Cherry Blossom Festival, which happens every April, is a celebration of American history, and they'll bring people in who have some relationship to an historic event, or who have relatives who were so for example, the great grandson of President Grant was at this event, but one of the people who was there was a former secret service agent who rode in the car behind John Kennedy when he was in Dallas and assassinated, and it took him 45 years to get to the point where he could come out of his experiences enough to start to talk about it, and I just have always admired people who do that. For me, being in the World Trade Center on September 11 and getting out, I never really viewed it as all that traumatic, but I guess it was, but my way to deal with it was, and I realized it much later, but we had so many newspaper reporters who wanted to know about the blind guy who got out of the World Trade Center. I talked about it, I mean, answered everyone's questions. And that was ironically, I love to pick on the media, but ironically, it was the media that really probably helped me move forward from September 11 the most.   Tricia Copeland ** 16:41 Yeah, I can imagine that was a lot of processing that you were able to do, as you talked about it.   Michael Hingson ** 16:48 People asked all sorts of questions, some really good questions, some not so good questions. And we got to observe all sorts of different types of press people. We had one Italian film crew who came to our house, there were 13 people, most of whom didn't really seem to do a whole lot, but they were there. And then there was a Japanese crew that came. And I think there were two people. It's just amazing what you see and what you learn. And for me and my wife, both now my late wife, but both, both of us love to observe and study and really think about what all these people are doing and how they do it, and we use it as ways to help us learn more about things, if you will, studying and being a student. I think of life as always an important thing,   Tricia Copeland ** 17:39 right, yeah, and I guess everybody reacts different to trauma and how you can process that everybody needs a little bit different. But yes, if you could look at things through a learning lens, that can definitely help too.   Michael Hingson ** 17:52 So you wrote the being me series. How many books are in that series? Four books, four books. Okay, and so, how long ago did you write those?   Tricia Copeland ** 18:03 I published them between 2015 and 2016   Michael Hingson ** 18:07 Okay, did you self publish or I do? Yes, you still do. Okay, great. Well, all right, and then what? What made you decide to then continue and start going into sort of teenage and so on, fiction and fantasy and so on, right?   Tricia Copeland ** 18:31 I realized that I just loved writing, and it was something that I didn't want to stop doing. So when I looked around for my next genre to write in, it was very obviously fantasy. For me. I read fantasy from a very young age. I loved Merlin and King authors legends and the Lord of the Rings and all of those books as a young person and a young adult, and that's just what I wanted to write. So my first book, interestingly enough, my editor sent it back to me and said, This is not fantastical enough. You need to make it more paranormal. So it took a minute to make that switch. What   Michael Hingson ** 19:15 book was that   Tricia Copeland ** 19:16 that is drops of sunshine and it is mirrored off an experience I had. I was a camp counselor at a camp for the blind when I was in I guess after my freshman year of college, and the campers in my story have these extra sensory skills where they can read people's minds. That was the paranormal aspect of my book, and that's not known in the beginning the story to our main character, and then she discovers that these kids have this special talent, and that was how my fantasy books started out. Mm, hmm.   Michael Hingson ** 20:00 Then where did it go from   Tricia Copeland ** 20:01 there? Then I jumped into the witches with the kingdom Journal series. I developed a character that was a vampire or is a vampire witch hybrid, and so she has a vampire mother and a witch father, but she doesn't know who her father is. She's never met him. And to make things a little bit harder, vampire witch Hyderabad are not allowed, but either the witch lines or the vampires, so both the vampires and the witches got together and said, these beings are too dangerous. We're not going to allow them in our society. And if she's discovered, then she'll be killed. That was the first character, Alina, and she's and to give her just a little more stress, I put her in a human High School, so now she pretends, you know, can't pretend to be a witch. Can't pretend to be a vampire. She needs to be human too. And, yeah, so that was a really fun book to write, and that's the series where the trinity of witches has to come together, so she has to find the other two witches of the Trinity, and they each get to tell their story in the books too. So that's why it's called the kingdom journals. It's a little bit of a journal format, so each character gets to tell their own story as well as telling the overall plot line of the series. How   Michael Hingson ** 21:19 do you come up with these characters and create these stories? I mean, it's very imaginative. I wouldn't have thought of it. How do you, and I'm sure other people say that, but how do you create the characters? How does all that   Tricia Copeland ** 21:32 work? Yeah, I set out, funny enough, I set out to write a vampire series that was my vampire is my favorite fantasy characters. And I thought, Okay, I'm gonna write a vampire series. It's not you don't want to do it too far out from what most people write or most people think of vampires. But I wanted my vampires to be a little bit different from the other vampires and other series. So I had this idea of making the vampire witch hybrid and her set in a human High School, and what would that look like? And then the challenge? I wasn't sure what I wanted to do with the challenge, but somehow I came up with this curse, and the curse was on the witch line, so it very quickly morphed into more of a witch book and the magical side of things, but the vampire characters are still there, and I explore them a little bit, although not as much as the witches.   Michael Hingson ** 22:27 Do you find that the characters essentially tell you what they want to be and who they are and why they do what they do. How much are the characters involved in your writing process? I've heard other authors say that that in some of the fiction things, the characters really create the story   Tricia Copeland ** 22:47 they do. I feel like my books are very character driven. So how I usually start with the idea for a character and think of their personality, their challenges, what I want, what themes I want to show with that character and then build the world sort of around that character. So it shows those themes and those character traits and what they're overcoming, either in their personal life or in their their physical life, right? But I do have characters that go off script. In the second book, kingdom of darkness. I have a character who we're not sure if he's a good guy or a bad guy. The main character thinks that he may be trying to delude her into thinking he's good when he's not really good. But I wrote him so well, like he was so nice that I couldn't make him a villain. So he became, I rewrote the story a little bit. I'd written it in my mind, I guess, but I rewrote it a little bit. So he did end up being a villain. And then somehow he got his whole own book, so he gets to star in his whole book after that.   Michael Hingson ** 23:54 And does he stay a villain? No, he   Tricia Copeland ** 23:57 didn't stay. He didn't was never, I mean, I kind of wrote it so the main character thought he was a villain, but in the end, I didn't make him a villain.   Michael Hingson ** 24:06 Well, I like books like that. I yeah, I think that most creatures are generally pretty nice.   Tricia Copeland ** 24:14 We would hope so,   Michael Hingson ** 24:16 although I don't know that that bears necessarily are overly generally nice to people, but, you know, who knows? Yeah, that doesn't mean they're evil either. Well, no, yeah.   Tricia Copeland ** 24:27 I mean, they're just living their life, right? That's they need their food sources. Is just like we need our food sources. So   Michael Hingson ** 24:35 I'd rather not be their food source, though, but that's okay, right?   Tricia Copeland ** 24:39 Yeah, and I don't know. I do struggle with, like, evil or antagonistic characters, because I'm, I don't like the idea that there's a character that is purely evil for no reason. So that is, that's always a grapple in an author's mind. I think,   Michael Hingson ** 24:56 well, and you know, I'll go back to Harry Potter. Modern Of course, we have Lord waldemart, who was definitely evil. But even so, the way she created the characters and the way she crafted the books, which probably in some ways, are similar, just in a process of what you do, it's not necessarily overly graphically evil. Even if there's evil, it isn't so graphic that you you you become totally adverse or against it. Evil or bad things are there, but it's all on how you present it. That's why I like books that are essentially puzzles, if you will, because they leave a lot of things to your imagination, and they give you the ability to as a reader, think about it, but as a writer, you also are essentially drawing the reader in to where you want the reader to go, but, but they're puzzles, rather than just some graphic thing, talking about all these horrible, mean, nasty things that a character may do.   Tricia Copeland ** 26:08 That's true, and it's all perspective, right? So the quote, unquote villain in my series is out to destroy all the vampires. But then you meet vampires that are good vampires, right? And you think, Huh, well, maybe this one vampire shouldn't be destroyed, because this vampire is not acting in a mean or hurtful way. So many sides to those questions,   Michael Hingson ** 26:33 yeah. Well, so the Kingdom series. How many books are in that one?   Tricia Copeland ** 26:38 There are four books in the main series, and there's a prequel to that series, okay?   Michael Hingson ** 26:45 And then what happened? What happened after that series?   Tricia Copeland ** 26:48 So in the finale, kingdom of war, my witches were going to have this huge battle against a vampire army that the evil witch created to, you know, battle the good witches. Yeah, she put which souls in the vampires. So that made them sort of like super vampires. But anyway, my witches needed an army, and I thought who would be a good character to be, to have an army that can come help the witches. So, yeah, the beings I thought of were fairies, and I created a queen Titania, is her name, who had an army who would come help the witches battle these vampire witch soul hybrid be. And when I created her, she just kind of took on her own character, and I quickly morphed that into what was her backstory, what were struggles? Where was she living? Where would the spay army come from? And that is what kind of launched my realm chronicle series, that the finale is coming out next month. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 28:10 that's that's pretty cool, and that that answers, again, the question we talked about earlier. The character actually took over, if you will, the writing, which is always cool, because that really shows how deeply you're invested in the characters and you let them have their voices, right?   Tricia Copeland ** 28:26 And I couldn't really give up the characters from my kingdom Journal series. They not, you know, not to give too much away, but they do complete their first quest and but this evil witch who's trying to destroy the vampires is still out there somewhere, so I couldn't completely let them go. So the witches from my kingdom Journal series come into the round Chronicles series, and the fairies and the witches are continuing to help each other.   Michael Hingson ** 28:56 Well, that's cool. Well, it's kind of neat to even though it's a new series, and I assume you can read one without reading the other, but still, it's neat that you, you follow on and help to craft and expand the world.   Tricia Copeland ** 29:11 It's been a lot of fun. And I, you know, selfishly, I didn't want to let go the characters. I felt like they had a little bit of story left in them, and I was able to do that through the round chronicle series. And yeah, it it was a lot of fun for me to   Michael Hingson ** 29:26 write. And now, of course, the question is, will there be a lot more story with them, which is part of the adventure that will come next? Right?   Tricia Copeland ** 29:33 Yes, I'm, I'm thinking of that. I put my characters through a lot. So after I finished the finale, I felt like I just had to let them rest. I'm not really sure if I will continue with those same characters or or either pull out some different characters from that book to have their own stories. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 29:54 well, it's, it's going to be an adventure. No question about. It   30:00 definitely so   Michael Hingson ** 30:04 with your books. Do you have themes in your books? That is, are you? Are you trying to convey messages? Do you have themes and things that you want people to think about as they go through reading your books?   Tricia Copeland ** 30:16 I do. I feel like I like that in the book, and so I kind of embed that in my books too, but it's really more about what is the character grappling with. Not only, like I said in their physical world, maybe Queen Titania is the first female queen in her realm, and some of the old guard, other monarchs are not sure that a female should be able to rule, So that's sort of an out, outside challenge. But she also has inner conflict and challenges where she's not really trusting that she really can do it and she's really supposed to do it, and should she, you know, hand the crown to someone else who may be older or wiser or and so it does she have faith in herself. You know, would sort of be that theme there. And so each of the books have, I mean, it's not like I say, hey, the theme of this book is you need to believe in yourself, yeah, but just showing that the character arcs and how they overcome their challenges.   Michael Hingson ** 31:22 How do you again create those? How do you work those in what? What's the process that allows you to to put those themes in and and add them to the book and bring that value out? Right?   Tricia Copeland ** 31:37 I guess it's just how, the way I the challenges I choose to put in front of my characters and showing them fail at times, and showing them I do write first person, so you're getting a very up close view of what the character is thinking and feeling at all times. So I think that helps with a little bit of that, knowing that the character is struggling with whatever their um, XYZ, inner, inner turmoil that they're struggling with. And then, you know, just having other characters bounce things off of them, because the character themselves might not realize, hey, I I get anxious when I'm not in control of situations. So, you know, somebody might say, Hey, you're doing this again, stop.   Michael Hingson ** 32:29 That's why we have editors,   32:30 right,   Michael Hingson ** 32:33 and other people to help well, so you are you, but you clearly talk with your characters and you let them have a voice, which is, I think, something that adds a really great dimension to the writing that you do. And I think it's very important to do that.   Tricia Copeland ** 32:51 I hope so. I have very detailed character sheets for each of my characters. I create much bigger back stories than, probably, than really makes it into the books, just to be able to know, like, how my characters will react in situations, what their growth needs to be, where areas that I want to show that growth, and what's most important in their values, And how would they react to all the different challenges?   Michael Hingson ** 33:24 What caused you to bring fairies into it again? I think that's pretty imaginative. You were writing about witches of vampire. Fairies are are different. How did that come about?   Tricia Copeland ** 33:34 Honestly, I was at a book event, and a person was walking around with these postcards, and they were trying to get authors to write a short story for an anthology, and it had to be a fantasy genre, and it had to be a character with a mental health challenge. But the image on the postcard was of a fairy, and she was hunched in a meadow in these grasses, and she looked kind of anxious or scared, maybe even a little timid or worried. And I thought, Oh, that's a cool image. It was very striking with the green grass and her fairy wings and just her eyes were like had just a lot of feeling behind them. So it caught my eye. I never thought I'd write about fairies. I was looking for the Army for my witches, and I thought, well, you know, the fairies could be like the characters the witches go to. So it was just kind of happenstance that I happened to see this fairy character on a postcard and think, Huh, I could, you know, the fairies could be the answer.   Michael Hingson ** 34:44 And turns out, they were, they were Yes. So are all fairies girls? No, okay.   Tricia Copeland ** 34:51 I mean, fairies are much like humans in my world, except that my fairies have wings. They in. Middle Earth, which is just below earth. So they share our same bedrock. It kind of mirrors our Earth in my world. And they have rings where they can come back and forth between the fae and the human realm, and they live in our contemporary times. I like those themes of there might be witches, there might be vampires, there might be fairies that walk alongside us every day, and we don't know it.   Michael Hingson ** 35:24 And do they know Bill Bo Baggins, since we're talking about Middle Earth, just   Tricia Copeland ** 35:29 they do, well, they might have read the book. I don't know that they met him personally.   Michael Hingson ** 35:35 Yeah. Well, that's, you know, another, another story, but it's but it's cool. What other kinds of characters are you thinking of for maybe future books, outside of witches, vampires and fairies,   Tricia Copeland ** 35:49 right? So I won't give too much away, but no, in order to perform some of the spells that they need to perform in, I guess in two of my books in this series, to be a Fae legend, which is the third book of the series, and to be a Fae which is the finale, The last book of the series. My witches and fairies need to perform these spells. So they need a great amount of power or energy, and they have to assemble different kinds of beings. And in the finale, they have to assemble 12 different kinds of beings. If you try to make a list of different kinds of being, you actually in ones that the witches and the fairies could find in the human realm, like so I had an elf and the werewolves and nicks and selkies like so the Nicks are shape shifters that shift into fish, and then the selkies are shape shifters that shift into now I'm blanking not walruses seals, sorry. So yeah, I had to go find all these different characters. So all of those characters are in this final book, and I I'm thinking of maybe some of those characters that can form a new series.   Michael Hingson ** 37:11 So are all trolls, mean, nasty creatures, or, do you know yet,   Tricia Copeland ** 37:16 in my series, they are depicted as that? Yes,   Michael Hingson ** 37:21 how about gnomes? I don't have any gnomes. Well, there's another one for you to look at down the line. Might be. It might be interesting to see where that goes. Of course. Yep, so you but you have a variety of characters, and I think it's it's great when you have a rich culture of a lot of different characters. And of course, there are all sorts of potentials for conflict or for different creatures to work learn to work together too,   Tricia Copeland ** 37:56 right? The Fay historically have not worked with other beings or creatures. They very much kept to themselves and had primary purpose. They think their primary purpose is to protect the humans from all the evil spirits. So that has been their focus historically, and they've shunned other groups of beings based on whether they thought they were descended from the Creator, who's sort of like their god or the creator or the evil one, right? So the Fae believed that the vampires and werewolves, for instance, were created by the evil ones, so they shouldn't associate with those types of beings, and there's a lot of learning in there. I guess you could say it, are we going to partner with these beings, and how? What does that look like? And is that really okay? And can we choose a different path than what our predecessors have chosen?   Michael Hingson ** 38:59 And I guess it's sort of pretty clearly, is that they somewhat do that.   Tricia Copeland ** 39:06 Yes, they do. And Titania, our main character, is very much the Herald for that type of behavior and that type of community and that type of acceptance   Michael Hingson ** 39:23 well. So your next year, your book will be out in July, and then where do you go from there?   Tricia Copeland ** 39:31 Yes, so like I said, I'm tossing around ideas for fantasy characters. I also write in the romance genre, so generally, I'll write a fantasy, and then I'll write a romance. I'll switch back and forth between writing those. The past year and a half, I guess I've been focusing on finishing this fantasy series, so I have two romances now queued up that I'm excited about writing, and we'll get to those first. I   Michael Hingson ** 39:58 think, hmm. What romances Have you written already?   Tricia Copeland ** 40:03 So after the being me series, I started the perfect romance series, which the first book was a little bit different from a typical romance. It has five parts, and it's the same main character, but based on decisions at different times in her life, her life goes off in a different way. So you see her go to France and fall in love with the French man, or you see her take a job in New York City and fall in love with a investment banker. And so you see her in different stages of her life, having made different decisions, but still finding happily ever after. So that kind of kicked off that. And somebody, somebody called it speculative romance at one time, and it's more like make your own story or choose your own ending type of book. But from there, I initially thought I would write like a full book showing each of the happily ever afters with that same character, but I wrote one book showing one happily ever after scenario, but then decided that I would look at all of her friends lives so they all met in college, and they were in this one sorority together. And so I write different books showing the different friends love stories. So I've written perfect. Was the first one perfect, always with Chloe. And then Brie book is a close as close to perfect. And this is still set in Lexington, Kentucky. And then the last one is perfect office pack, which is a enemies to lovers, office romance.   Michael Hingson ** 41:51 Now, do you put a lot of sex in your books? I   Tricia Copeland ** 41:54 don't know. My books are what's called closed door or fade to black, so you'll see some kissing, but not much more than that,   Michael Hingson ** 42:03 and that's fine. And the reason I asked that question was to get to the whole issue of so many people when they're writing, just have to make everything so graphic. There's got to be all this sex and all this other stuff that they put in them. And my view has always been, is that really necessary? And I gather you, you're essentially saying the same thing. And again, it's like detective stories. I love to read a lot of detective stories, but I like the detective stories most that are puzzles. That is, I want to figure out who done it. I don't need all the graphics of how somebody got murdered, or what happened. It happens. You don't need to put all that graphic stuff in to get to dealing with the puzzle. And it's the same thing with sex. You really need all that. Like a lot of comedians, it's all the shock stuff. They got to have all these horrible words, swear words, and everything else but the best comedians, I think most people, if they really study it, will agree, are the ones that tell stories without all that dirty and sex stuff in it.   Tricia Copeland ** 43:12 And that's what I like to read and what I like to watch, too. But there are definitely people that enjoy different types of books. Yeah, there are, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 43:21 yeah, I hear you, but I, I would prefer to be able to use my imagination in various things. So one of my favorite detective stories or Characters of All Times is Nero Wolfe, written by Rex Stout, because he he writes in a way where you don't see all the graphic and don't need to see any of the graphic to get the entire picture. He describes enough so you know what's going on, but he doesn't deal with it in a way that would How do I put it? Offend anyone?   Tricia Copeland ** 43:59 Right? And I would probably argue that mystery books are would be the hardest to write, I think, because you have to give enough clues throughout so that the reader doesn't think, Oh, I would have never thought that was the villain, but you don't want to put too much in. So it's so obvious who the villain is, right? So I think it's the ways those authors weave those stories are very intricate and thought out and multi layered and impressive to me   Michael Hingson ** 44:34 well. And the reality is that sometimes, and again, I'll use Rex Stout as an example, when you find out who did it, or who the bad person was, and Wolf explains it clearly, all the clues were there, but it would be really hard for you to put it together. Now, there have been a few times where there were things that he didn't tell you, that if you if he had said those. Because during the book, you might have figured it out, but mostly the clues are somewhat there, but it is so subtle that I doubt very many people would figure it out, which   Tricia Copeland ** 45:14 is, yeah, definitely.   Michael Hingson ** 45:17 It makes it so much fun. When that happens, it is. So you're, you're still deciding what you want to do for your next series of books, or what, what the next realm will be, if you will,   Tricia Copeland ** 45:31 in the fantasy genre, yes, I'm still deciding which way to go with my next characters.   Michael Hingson ** 45:38 Yes, right, but you're going to probably do some romances before you go into those. I   Tricia Copeland ** 45:43 am, yes, I was just writing a newsletter to my subscribers. In the last book, I had subscribers pick names for my characters. And so in this book, I thought, You know what? I don't like this character has has only been introduced and very briefly in one of the books, and so she doesn't have a lot of backstory. And I thought, You know what, I can just ask my readers, where do you think she should live? What are her hobbies? What does she like to do? What's her favorite book genre? I thought that would be a lot of fun for my readers to direct some of that.   Michael Hingson ** 46:18 And what kind of answers did you get? Did you get a lot of feedback?   Tricia Copeland ** 46:22 Like I said, I Well, with the names one when? So I'm just sent out the poll today, new one, but for the name ones, yeah, I would. I got like 100 answers. And then I thought, you know, next time, I won't do the names, because sometimes names are so personal and can vote like a lot of emotion that people get very heated about people's names.   Michael Hingson ** 46:47 Now, do mostly women answer? Do you get both sexes answering your questions? It is   Tricia Copeland ** 46:52 mostly women, but definitely, maybe 10% male, I would think. And actually, I feel like I have more interaction, and that's mostly on the fantasy side, but I feel like I actually have sometimes more interaction. Maybe, I don't know, maybe this get more passionate about fantasy?   Michael Hingson ** 47:13 Yeah, probably so. But you know, there's, there's something to be said for reading a good romance book. I like cozy mysteries as well, and a lot of those are really combinations of mysteries and romance, and the mystery part is oftentimes more straightforward, but it's just the whole book and the putting the entire book together that makes it so much fun.   Tricia Copeland ** 47:41 Yeah, those can be a quick, you know, kind of feel good read. I yeah for that genre, yeah, and   Michael Hingson ** 47:49 there's nothing wrong with that. It's good to have feel good books occasionally,   Tricia Copeland ** 47:54 too. I am all for feel good everything, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 47:58 Well, when I travel, I like to read on airplanes, and I like not to work and do reading that's really related to work, because going and coming from events is really the time that I get to have the most down time once I get somewhere I am on until I am on the airplane coming home. And so it is the way to relax. So I enjoy reading things that will allow me to relax when I'm going and coming from trips or from events, which is so important, I think, to be able to do and I think people should do more of that. It's always worth slowing down some and really letting your mind just wander.   Tricia Copeland ** 48:38 Yeah, plane trips are my favorite, because that's I do the same thing. I read on the plane, and I listen to audio books mostly if I'm home, when I'm exercising or when I'm doing chores. But to be able to sit down and read doesn't happen that often.   Michael Hingson ** 48:56 What do you like to read most from audio books? What? What genre?   Tricia Copeland ** 48:59 Um, exactly what I write, fantasy and romance.   Michael Hingson ** 49:03 What's your favorite fantasy books   Tricia Copeland ** 49:06 I just finished, and I'm so behind because I don't read fantasy when I'm writing fantasy. So I just finished Holly Black's, the folk of the air series, the cruel prince, I think the cool prince, the wicked king and the queen of nothing. I think they're the three books in that series. So that was really good series. And I'm writing Emily's wild encyclopedia fairies right now. So I just started that get   Michael Hingson ** 49:33 a little bit more information on those fairies for a future book. Right? That's that's kind of important to do. So do you produce with I've asked a number of people this, and I'll ask you, do you arrange for audio books to be produced from your series?   Tricia Copeland ** 49:53 I do both my fantasy series, The Kingdom journals, as well as the realm Chronicles. I have audio books. Four. I'm a little bit behind in the realm Chronicles. My Narrator had some health problems, so I'm switching narrators. But my new narrator, Tina walls, wolsen craft, yes, I think that's how you pronounce her last name, she will be working on the fourth book in the realm Chronicles series in September. So I'm hoping that will come out in October, and that will be my, my eighth audio book.   Michael Hingson ** 50:23 And where can people get the audio books?   Tricia Copeland ** 50:26 So the kingdom Journal series is on all platforms, and then the realm chronicle series, the newest series, is on Audible. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 50:37 so and again under your name for the author?   Tricia Copeland ** 50:42 Yep. Tricia Copeland, author, the Kingdom Journal series. The first two books are female character, so and now I'm blank. I can't believe I'm blanking on her name. It'll come to me in a minute. Yeah. So I had a female narrator for the first two books, and then the second two books are male Lee main characters. So Dan Delgado did the narration on those and then Jillian Yetter, who was the most amazing narrator for Titania. She even had pink hair, just just like Titania does, a hold of the the cover of the book has Titania is pink hair. So that was really fun to work with her, and we won an award for the second book in that series, to be a fake guardian   Michael Hingson ** 51:26 in audio book. Oh, cool. What was the award? It   Tricia Copeland ** 51:29 was independent book publisher Association, young adult fantasy, Silver Award.   Michael Hingson ** 51:35 Oh, cool. That's exciting. It's always good to have awards. Have you run other awards along the way?   Tricia Copeland ** 51:40 I have several Colorado independent book Publishers Association for the first book, kingdom of embers, in the kingdom Journal series, as well as several the global Book Awards for to remember it to be, to be a fake queen, which is the first book in the kingdom journals and as Ray at my Aztec mythology.   Michael Hingson ** 52:06 So how many books have you written all together?   Speaker 1 ** 52:08 Next month's book will be 23 Wow.   Michael Hingson ** 52:13 That is really exciting. Well, I know we're putting in the show notes, the picture of the book cover for the next book. And as I mentioned earlier, if you want to send us other books that you think people ought to read, we'll put those pictures in the the notes as well. I'm glad to have all the pictures you want to share.   Tricia Copeland ** 52:31 I will definitely share them. Thank you. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 52:34 so is there anything else you'd like all of our listeners and viewers to know or to think about going forward,   Tricia Copeland ** 52:42 right? Well, if you go to my website, which is triciacopeland.com,   Michael Hingson ** 52:47 and Tricia is T, R, i, c, I A, Copeland, C, O, P, E, L,   52:53 a n, d, l, a n, d.com.com,   Tricia Copeland ** 52:56 yes, if you go there, and if you just want to get a trial of my books. If you subscribe to my newsletter, then you can read a free short story fantasy as well as a free short story romance.   Michael Hingson ** 53:07 Oh, okay. If people want to reach out to you, what's the best way to do that,   Tricia Copeland ** 53:13 they can reach out on direct message, on social media, or my email is Tricia T, R, i, c, I a@triciacopeland.com   53:21 too. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 53:24 then people can, can reach out and and they'll, I'm sure, have all sorts of ideas for you.   Tricia Copeland ** 53:31 I love ideas, and I love talking to readers about my books.   Michael Hingson ** 53:36 Yeah, I I've written three, and I love getting comments and feedback from people, because I get new ideas and new thoughts. And mine are really all about helping to inspire people and so on. So it's it's always good when people have their their observations, whatever they are.   54:01 I agree.   Michael Hingson ** 54:03 Well, anyway, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and I really value your time being here, and I hope people will reach out and and also, more important, get your books and read your books and review them. One of the most important things that all of us who are authors will tell anyone is, please review the books. Please go to places like Amazon and Reddit and so on and review the books, because those reviews are are viewed and paid attention to by so many people. So giving an author, a great review is always a wonderful thing to do.   Tricia Copeland ** 54:44 We do appreciate those and thank you so much, Michael for having me.   Michael Hingson ** 54:48 Well, it was my pleasure, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching today. We really appreciate it. If you've got any thoughts, I'd love to hear from you, please email me at Michael H i. M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I, at access, A, B, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, but also go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hinkson.com/podcast, you can see all of our podcasts there, but they're also available wherever you're listening to podcasts and and you can find the most anywhere podcasts are available. If you know anyone who ought to be a guest that you think would make a wonderful guest, and you'd like to have them tell their stories and Tricia you as well, I would really appreciate you introducing us, because we're always looking for more people to have on the podcast, and so please don't hesitate to reach out and don't hesitate to provide introductions, but again, give us a five star review here on unstoppable mindset. We value your reviews greatly, and we really appreciate you doing it. So I want to thank you, Tricia again, for being here. This has been fun, and I think it's really important that people do get a great sense of what you're doing, and I think we've done that, and we're really anxious to see where you go from here.   Tricia Copeland ** 56:08 Thank you so much, Michael, I so appreciate it.   Michael Hingson ** 56:15 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

AI wearables have been an emerging industry for the blind and visually impaired. While there are a number of options, not all are designed using the input of the blind. With direct feedback from blind users, EchoVision Glasses have been shaped by well-respected leaders in America's blindness organizations such as NFB and ACB, icons such as Stevie Wonder, and a wide variety of potential users spanning our community.   Kevin Chao returns to the virtual studio after connecting with Simon Bonenfant at the 2025 National Convention of the National Federation of the Blind to discuss how Agiga was founded, spotlight some of EchoVision's unique elements and demo several exciting features on the horizon.   From the Agiga Website: “Empowering Independence, One View at a Time. EchoVision isn't just another smart glasses—it's a gateway to independence, knowledge, and boundless possibilities. Designed with the blind, for the blind, EchoVision empowers individuals to access visual information effortlessly and live life hands-free.” To learn more and pre-order your glasses, visit the Agiga website. To contact Agiga directly, call them at (408) 940-5215 or email them at contact@agiga.ai   Like them on Facebook, subscribe to their YouTube channel. To connect with the Agiga community join their Google Group, and Facebook Group.   We hope you have enjoyed this interview. If you would like to learn more and contact us, you can follow us on Twitter @Blind Abilities On the web at www.blindabilities.com Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store and Google Play Store Give us a call and leave us some feedback at 612-367-6093. We would love to hear from you! Check out the Blind Abilities Community on Facebook, the Blind Abilities Page and Career Resources for the Blind and Visually Impaired group. To contact Simon directly, send him an email at sbonenfant2@gmail.com  

In episode 142 of White Canes Connect, Lisa Bryant takes the lead to interview co-host David Goldstein and NFB of PA President Lynn Heitz about our experiences at the 2025 NFB National Convention in New Orleans. We share highlights from Pennsylvania's strong showing — 56 attendees, 10 first-timers, four national scholarship finalists, and a Jernigan Leadership graduate. Lynn and David reflect on the energy of the general sessions, memorable speeches, and some lively debates during resolutions. We also talk about the bustling — and slightly oddly laid-out — exhibit hall, where Pennsylvania sold out of chocolate-covered pretzels. From the opening ceremony's brass band and very cool Whozit beads to reconnecting with Federation friends and meeting new ones, the week was packed with learning, networking, and a few surprises — including a fire alarm that cleared the ballroom mid-vote. We also touch on standout presentations on AI, Social Security, and blindness research, plus the banquet speech from President Mark Riccobono. You'll also hear reflections from first-time attendees Denise, Clarence, and Parri, each sharing their most memorable convention moments. Whether you were there or not, this episode captures the energy, camaraderie, and purpose that make national convention such a powerful experience. Show notes at https://www.whitecanesconnect.com/142    NFB of PA State Convention Registration is Open Registration is now open for the 2025 NFB of PA State Convention in Harrisburg from November 13 to November 16 at the Best Western Premier! Learn more at https://www.nfbofpa.org/state-convention/. Go directly to the registration form at https://www.nfbofpa.org/register/. An Easy Way to Help the NFB of PA Support the NFB of PA with every purchase at White Cane Coffee Company by going to https://www.whitecanecoffee.com/ref/nfbp. When you use that link to purchase from White Cane Coffee, the NFB of PA earns a 10% commission! Share the link with your family and friends! Listen to Erin and Bob Willman from White Cane Coffee on episode 072 of White Canes Connect. Donate to the NFB of PA Like what you hear on White Canes Connect? Support us and donate to the National Federation of the Blind of Pennsylvania, visit https://www.NFBofPA.org/give/. We Want to Hear Your Story Reach out with questions and comments, or share ideas! We want to hear from you. Call us at (267) 338-4495 or at whitecanesconnect@gmail.com. Follow White Canes Connect Find out why White Canes Connect is currently ranked at #13 of the 100 Best Visually Impaired Podcast. Find the show on: Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/white-canes-connect/id1592248709  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1YDQSJqpoteGb1UMPwRSuI  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@pablindpodcast  Visit our website at https://www.whitecanesconnect.com/.

In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset we get to experience a story of a man who demonstrates what real unstopability is really all about. I hope you will be inspired and that you will learn some good life lessons from what you will hear. Our guest, Kijuan Amey grew up around Durham North Carolina. After completing high school, rather than going to college, circumstances brought him to an Airforce recruiter. He scored quite high on his tests which resulted in his recruiter showing him a list of jobs including working as an in-flight refueling expert. The job was demanding, and it requires significant intelligence. After pondering and speaking with the recruiter Kijuan signed up for the job and spent the next 6 and a half years refueling aircraft in flight.   In May of 2017 Kijuan was struck by a motorcycle and suffered a significant number of major injuries. Of course, his career as a refueling expert ended. He actually spent the next 3 and a half years healing and eventually deciding to move on with his life.   Kijuan describes himself as someone who always likes getting answers and moving forward. This he did as you will discover. You will hear the story of Kijuan Amey in detail. Today he teaches and he is a coach. He also wrote and published a book. What I haven't told you to this point is that one of the things that happened to Kijuan as a result of his injuries is that he lost his eyesight. As he will tell you, however, “I may have lost my sight, but I have not lost my vision”. Kijuan today is a keynote speaker talking to many audiences and helping people to discover how they can move forward with their lives no matter what befalls them.     About the Guest:   Kijuan Amey, the visionary behind Amey Motivation, hails from Durham, NC, where his journey of resilience and success began. After graduating from Southern High School, he dedicated a decade of his life to the US Air Force, achieving the rank of Staff Sergeant as an In-flight Refueling Specialist. Medically retired, he transitioned into academia, earning a degree and founding Amey Motivation LLC. Formerly served as the vice president for the Carolina regional group of the Blinded Veterans Association, Kijuan is also a mentor and ambassador for the Air Force Wounded Warriors program. Beyond his remarkable military career, Kijuan is a man of many talents, boasting over 25 years of drumming expertise, onstage acting, and now, an upcoming bestseller, “Don't Focus on Why Me.” However, life took an unexpected turn on May 5th, 2017, when a motorcycle accident claimed his eyesight. Yet, as Kijuan profoundly states, “I may have lost my sight, but I did not lose my vision.” Now armed with an inspiring story of overcoming adversity, Kijuan has become a motivational force, empowering others to reach their highest potential. Whether addressing a crowd of 1,500 or engaging in one-on-one sessions, Kijuan is well-equipped for any speaking engagement. He's not just a speaker; he's a catalyst for transformation, ready for the task ahead! Contact him at (919) 641-8150 | kijuan@ameymotivation.com | AmeyMotivation.com Ways to connect with Kijuan:   Website: ameymotivation.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kijuan-amey-783889121?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/share/167F8mGMfR/?mibextid=wwXIfr Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kijuanamey?igsh=NmZtNHRqbW1meWNy&utm_source=qr      About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Hi, everyone. I am Michael hingson, and you are listening and or watching our podcast. Unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And for those who may not really understand all of that, we start with inclusion, because if you talk to diversity people, they typically leave out any discussion of disabilities, and today, especially, that gets to be important, because our guest Kijuan, Amey, is blind, and I, of course, as many of you probably know also, am blind, and so we're going to talk about blind, and who knows what else we'll we'll get into all sorts of adventures. There's another thing that Kijuan and I have in common, and he doesn't even really probably know about it, and that is that in my book thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog, and the triumph of trust at Ground Zero, there's a section called guide dog wisdom. And in the section of guide dog wisdom, number two, the main point of that one is, don't let your sight get in the way of your vision. And that was published in Thunder dog anyway, we'll talk about whatever comes along. But Kijuan, I want to welcome you to doing a stoppable mindset, and thanks for being here. We're glad to have you,   Kijuan Amey ** 02:42 Michael, I truly appreciate you allowing me to come on your platform and share my story.   Michael Hingson ** 02:47 Well, no allowance necessary. It is all all about people conversing and telling their stories and why they do what they do, and showing that they're unstoppable, so that we can show everybody else that they're unstoppable as well, or really ought to consider themselves more unstoppable than they think. But anyway, we're glad you're here, and looking forward to having a great conversation with you. Why don't we start by you going back and telling us kind of about the the early years of Kijuan, the early years of Yeah. Let's start with the beginning. You know, you know, like they, they always say you gotta start at the beginning somewhere. So might as well start at the beginning.   Kijuan Amey ** 03:29 Yeah. So back in the 90s, born in Durham, North Carolina, where I was, of course, raised there as well. I don't live too far from there. Now, honestly, I'm only maybe 2530 minutes from there, so I still consider myself right here in it.   Michael Hingson ** 03:48 And of course, having grown up in Durham, you must be a major basketball fan of some sort.   Kijuan Amey ** 03:55 What? Why would you say that there's no basketball around here? What   Michael Hingson ** 03:58 are you talking about? Yes, 25 miles away from you. Yeah, I am definitely a, a   Kijuan Amey ** 04:04 true Understander of the rivalry UNC versus Duke. Okay, oh gosh, and and then I might be from Durham, but I'm actually a UNC fan.   Michael Hingson ** 04:16 I was in Carolina once and Northern Carolina, North Carolina in Durham, several years ago to do a speech. And we came in on a Thursday night, and I got to the hotel was pretty tired, but I thought I would unpack and watch TV. And at the time, there was a show on CBS called without a trace. I kind of like the show, so I turned it on, and at eight o'clock, when without a trace was supposed to come on, there was suddenly an announcement that says that without a trace will not be seen tonight, because we're going to be presenting live the basketball game between North Carolina State and University of. North Carolina to see which one is going to go to the chip college championships. And so if you want to watch without a trace, you can watch it Sunday morning at two in the morning. I wasn't going to do that, but anyway. But anyway. So yeah, the basketball. It runneth hot there, obviously,   Kijuan Amey ** 05:22 yeah, so it's pretty interesting. There is a meme for those who understands what that is, but it's a depiction. There's North Carolina State, Duke and UNC, all standing on top of a mountain, all of the mascots, and North Carolina State says, I'm going to do this one for my team, and they jump off the mountain. And then UNC says, and I'm going to do this one for my team, and then they kick Duke off the mountain.   Michael Hingson ** 05:59 Listen, I'm telling you, man, it is serious around I know it is really serious. It's so serious. So, yeah,   Kijuan Amey ** 06:05 no, I grew up in a UNC household, um, grandmother, mother, I mean, dad, hey, listen, if you they even worked at Duke and still were UNC fans. It's just the way it was, you know, and it's hard to when you grew up in it was hard to go against, you know, Unc, when they have such a amazing teams with Michael Jordan, Antoine Jameson, all these guys that came through there, you just like, gosh, these guys were really great. And so it's just one of those things. But, you know, kind of growing up with that lifestyle, you had the two games during the season, and you you hope they met in the in the in the ACC tournament, right? Because you wanted to see if there could be a clean sweep, well. And so this past year, Duke got to sleep. They rightfully, rightfully so, because their star player is going to be drafted number one this year. So they rightfully got it   Michael Hingson ** 07:12 another year. I was in brether County, Kentucky to do a speech, and it was the day of the NCAA championship. So one of the two teams was the what Wildcats of Kentucky, and I forget who the other one was, but I was to do a speech that started at 6pm and I was told it was at a high school. And I was told this speech has to end absolutely latest, at 6:30pm because by 631 the gym will be completely closed and and everyone will be gone because everyone wants to go home and see the Wildcats. Well, I did the speech. I ended it at 630 and everyone was gone. By 631 they were flooding out. Boy, I couldn't believe how fast they all got out. I'm   Kijuan Amey ** 08:09 telling you. Man, those, what we call them is blue, blue bloods, yeah, and these are the big, the biggest, you know, college teams that that impact that sport. So for basketball, of course, you got your UNC, your Duke, your Kentucky, your Kansas, those types of teams, you know. And football we already know is kind of shifting a little bit, but hey, it's just the way it is with all this nio money now. So yeah, and that's kind of what's going on nowadays. You got to have some money. And the difference between UNC and Duke, one's a private school and one's public. There you go. Well, so tell us. So tell us more about you. Yes. So me, besides me being a Tar Heel fan, I personally, you know, went after high school, graduated from Southern High School here in Durham, and then went on to the United States Air Force. I actually was going to consider going to North Carolina State, but it was not to become a fan. It was because they had one of the better engineering programs in the state, and better than UNC, huh? UNC doesn't really offer engineering. They offer computer science. And I didn't want that. And the computer science is kind of boring to me, yeah? And I mean, I'm just being honest, yeah, that's okay. And so I wanted to do either software or computer engineering, and the two best schools in the state were North Carolina State University and North Carolina agriculture and Technical State University, which we shortened for North Carolina A and T. So those two schools are the best here in North Carolina, which actually get a lot of great funding for engineering. Yeah, by the way. So yeah, that was what I was planning on doing, but there were admission hiccups. And so I said, you guys can have your admission hiccups. I already can't afford you. Anyway, I'm gonna take a different route. And so I have a really heavy or, shall I say my family has a really heavy background in the military, and mostly navy. Jeez, maybe seven, I think maybe six or seven Navy members, and then one army, one Marine, one went from the Navy to the Coast Guard. And then you have me, who kicked off the Air Force journey, and then my youngest brother is now carrying that torch, so he's out there in Italy. Man, I'm a little jealous about it. It's okay. I never got to see Italy. It's all right. It's all right. But anyway, I went into the Air Force and became an in flight refueling specialist. So what does that mean? Exactly, yeah, yeah. That's what I was getting into. I can't just say it without not telling so what that means is, I do refill aircraft, but I do it in the sky. It's basically like airplanes pulling up to a flying gas station,   Michael Hingson ** 11:28 which can be very tricky, tricky.   Kijuan Amey ** 11:30 That's a That's an understatement of the year. It's dangerous the first so when I was going through school, the first warning that they had in the book says flying two planes in close proximity is inherently dangerous. You think there's no way that's possible. No couldn't be Who are they telling this to? Like, man, it's almost like a five year or five year old needed to read that or something. So I'm just like, okay, the way to scare me. Appreciate it. And anywho I did that job for on paper, 10 years, three months and 17 days. That's how long the military counted. I Yeah, say, six and a half   Michael Hingson ** 12:22 years now. Why did you decide to do that, to go into the military? No to to become an in flight? Oh,   Kijuan Amey ** 12:31 that's because, well, first, yeah, yeah, you're right. That's a good question, because I had no clue that even existed. Didn't even know until my recruiter showed me, because I scored so high on the ASVAB, he said, I gotta show you something. And I was like, Okay, what is it? And so, you know, when you're going into the military, you're kind of skeptical about them trying to sell you a dream. And you know, so I'm like, and again, I have plenty of military families, so they're all telling me about this. They're like, don't let them sell you no dream. Make sure you pick a job before you go to basic training, because you don't want to go in open general and all this stuff. I said, okay, cool. Well, when he shows me that video, I start giggling. I said, Okay, all right. And he's like, what? I'm like, yeah, that's pretty cool. But what's the actual job you're going to show me? And he's like, this is the job as it that looks like a video game, man. He's like, he was like, I know it's crazy, but you qualify for it   Michael Hingson ** 13:40 now. What, what, what characteristic did you have, or what was the scoring on the test that made you qualify for that?   Kijuan Amey ** 13:49 I don't know what the exact cutoff is, but I score an 87 on my ASVAB out of 100 so that's that's high. Um, you needed a 50 to get into the Air Force. And I scored the 87 and he was so happy and elated. He called me as soon as he got my score. Not like, waited a day or two, no, he called me as soon as he saw the opening of the email. And he was like, When can you come in? That's all he said to me. He didn't say nothing else on the phone. And I was like, um, I could be there tomorrow. He was like, I'll be here. I said, okay, but anyway, that's literally how excited he was. He didn't even tell me why until I got there, so I had no clue, until the day I arrived in his office, and he was, he pulled out this stack of papers that he had stapled together, which was a was jobs, listing of jobs. And it was like eight pages, front and back, listings. And I'm like, Okay, what is this? And then I get close to it, I read. And I'm like, Oh, these are jobs. He's like, Yeah. He's like, go ahead. You flip through him, if you like. And I'm flipping through he's already started highlighting some and I knew there was something I wasn't gonna do. I mean, there was one of them that wasn't highlighted that I thought I wanted to do, which I'm glad I didn't, because I told it basically been me working on, like, Humvees and trucks and stuff. And he was like, You are way too smart for that. I said, okay, but that's what I know. That's what I just came out of high school doing, you know, because I went to a high school that had vocational trades and stuff. So I loved cars, I still do, and worked on mine until, literally, I couldn't see anymore, and so, you know, slowly becoming a lost trait. But hey, somebody's got to do it anyway. Yeah, that's how I got into that job. He showed it to me on a computer screen, and I was like, What the heck he's like, I've never, I said I'd never seen this before. He's like, you're not gonna see it as a civilian, because only the military does.   Michael Hingson ** 16:09 So why is it the military essentially said you did it six and a half years and you said you did it as 10.   Kijuan Amey ** 16:14 No, opposite. I said I did it six and a half. Oh, okay, rather, okay, 10, right? Because that was the day they retired me, the six and a half is the day I had my injury, and I never showed back up to work. Basically, what was your injury? My injury was a motorcycle accident where a car pulled out in front of okay, yeah, yeah. Sustained my eyes, my eyesight loss, traumatic brain injury, PTSD, spinal cord injury, broken, both legs, everything. What do you want to know? The only thing that didn't get, I guess you say, didn't have a surgery on was my arms   Michael Hingson ** 16:55 got it, but they, but they kept you in essentially, well, you were, you were in the military, so you stayed in while you were healing, or what?   Kijuan Amey ** 17:06 Yeah, so it, what happened was the reason it took so long, nobody really knew what to do with me and I, and I'll get you to why, or an understanding of why. So I did four years active, but now, at the time of my accident, I'm a reservist. I'm not active duty anymore. So fortunately for me, I was on an active duty, or in an active status, is what we call it, in the reserves, because I was in a travel status that day of my accident because I had to work that weekend, and on the day, which was May 5, 2017 that was my travel day. Okay, thankfully, because had it been may 4, 2017 I wouldn't have any of this, literally just one day. Wow. And so they were trying to figure out how to process me. They didn't know what to keep me, to let me go, to drop me off a cliff, like they didn't know what to do. And so as we were trying to file every piece of paper known to the what do you call it? DOD, Department of Defense. We had no clue what to do. Medical didn't know what to do. My leadership didn't know what to do. I definitely didn't know what to do. I mean, I never dealt with an injury, you know, or seen anybody deal with an injury, especially as substantial as mine. Yeah, of course, you were in the hospital. Well, even after getting out of hospital, you know, we were still dealing with this the whole entire time until I got retired, you know, up until the point where they eventually put me, it's kind of like they were trying to out process me with an honorable discharge, but they saw that he has an injury, so we need to get him some, you know, stuff done, and then he put me on a casualty report, and which means, you know, I was very badly injured. That's basically all that means. And that put me on a another piece of or or track, shall I say, which got me connected to a headquarters in Randolph Air Force Base in San Antonio, which is the Air Force Wounded Warriors Program. Now, when they saw my name pop up on the casualty report, they called me, and I'll never forget Connie Sanchez's voice, because I was like, What the heck is this? But she said, Hi, I'm Connie Sanchez calling from the Air Force winter Warriors Program, and I was trying to reach a key one Amy. And I'm like, You're who from where, because I had never heard of a program. Mm, hmm. So are you trying to in today's society, the scams that go on, you know? Yeah, I don't know what's going on. Who you? Who are you from? Where I'm I've been been in the Air Force for a while now. I've never heard of an Air Force. When the Warriors program, what are we talking about here, you know? And so she's doing her best to explain it to me and keep me from from being skeptical, as she says, I saw you pop up on a casualty report list, and we help airmen who have been wounded, ill or injured, you know, and and I said, Okay, well, what do you what are we we talking about? Like, what are mean you supposed to be talking about? She's like, Oh, I'm gonna help you get medically retired. I say, you gonna help me who? These are the words I've been looking for. You know, you gonna help me do what? Oh, I'm gonna help you get medically retired. I said, Where have you been for the last three years? And so anyway, that's how that whole thing got started. The ball started getting rolled to get   Michael Hingson ** 21:14 rolling so you were injured in 2017 Yeah. What was your attitude like after the injury? How? How did you move forward, or what? What were you thinking? Was it? Were you? Were you just totally devastated? Did you think you're going to just off yourself, or what?   Kijuan Amey ** 21:38 Well, let me preface by saying this, I told you I had a traumatic brain injury. The damage to my brain is most severe in the frontal lobe. The frontal lobe houses a lot of emotions, and so yes, there was devastation, yes, there was sadness. Yes, there was, well, what am I going to do now? Yes, there was anxiety, there was anything you can think of anger because of the guy who hit me or pulled out in front of me. Shall I say? You know, there was so much that was going on at one time, because, you know, I'm stuck in the hospital for, oh, by the way, I was at UNC hospital. Okay, so that's pretty cool. Uh, that I'm a Tar Heel Fanning and I got, you know, Life Flight of the UNC hospital. But back to what I was saying, there's so much that was going on that one time, because I'm stuck at a hospital for two months now, granted, the first month I know nothing about. I was in a medically induced coma for the first month, so from May 5 until June the sixth. Don't ask me any question. You know what? I mean, I literally know nothing, because that's when I came to I came out of my medically induced coma, and so I'm just trying to figure out where I am. I cannot see already, like my vision was already gone. This is not a gradual loss, as some might think or might be wondering. I could not talk at the time because my jaw had been broken, so they wired it shut to keep me from damaging it any further then I didn't realize it yet, but I also could not smell, and the reason I didn't realize it is because I could breathe just fine. The only time I noticed I couldn't smell is when some is when somebody said, Man, you smell that? It smelled good? No, no, I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about. What What smells good, you know? Or if I you know, yeah, something smell bad. I don't smell it. What are you talking about? And so anywho, um, all of these different things are going through my mind, and even after I was told what happened to me, because I, of course, don't remember. I have no recollection of the accident. So after they told me what happened now, I am sitting there with these thoughts in my head for basically, I don't know, 12 hours because I stopped talking or communicating with anyone after that, and I just wanted to be alone. Because, as the saying goes, I just got hit with a ton of bricks. Yeah, you know, so I'm literally going through all the emotions, the sadness, the net, the potential, thought of never being able to see again, never being able to fly again, refill again, see my, my girlfriend, see my, my nieces, nephews, a family, uncle, anything possible. My, I don't even have kids. I never get to see them, you know. So it's. It was one of those things. And I, I mean, I took a lot of pride in the things that I saw, because it was things that a lot of people would never see. And this is also why, you know, on some of my social media, when I did do air refuelings and things of that nature, or or went to really nice locations, or even some that weren't so nice. I would take pictures and post it, because some people will never get to see this. Yeah, so I want you to live vicariously if you want to say it through me, they're like, man, that's cool. That video, that was awesome. You you did the other day. Hey, I appreciate it, man. Hey, it's my job, you know? It's just what it is. It's all part of the   Michael Hingson ** 25:49 game, you know. And all that was taken away   Kijuan Amey ** 25:53 Exactly. And so when I tell you I used to have and I wouldn't even be sleep, I would be daydreaming, and could see so vividly, like airplanes that I used to refuel, like the F 22 Raptor, the C 17, you know, it's it's things like that. The views I used to have looking down at the ocean from 20,000 feet in the air, looking down at the coastline, flying over the North Carolina and Virginia border, where you can see literally go from land to water to land, because there is a tunnel that goes underneath the water for ships to pass over, I could literally see that stuff from the air and to now go from not seeing that ever again, the thoughts that you sit with were just like beating me up alive. And so I finally had to come out of crazy mode, because that's what it makes you do. It makes you go crazy when you do think about all these thoughts. I had to come out of that mode, because if I didn't, I probably would have really went crazy. And I finally started asking all the questions to get answers, instead of trying to formulate my own questions that I had no answers to. And so that is what you know, got me the information and how the accident happened, where I was, where I was coming from. I do remember the day that I had before that, like not not may 4, but like what I was doing before I had the accident. I do remember all of that, but the thing is, when it came up to the accident, I don't know nothing about it, it's like it completely erased that entire moment. And that's a protective mode that your neurological system does for your brain. So it's so, it's so. It's so empowering that your your mind, can do something like that. But it's also a benefit, because I would never, I do not want to relive that dream or that nightmare, shall I say, over and over. Right?   Michael Hingson ** 28:22 But you made the choice to move on, to get out of the crazy mode. What? What caused you to do that? Just you decided enough was enough, and it's time to move on, or what?   Kijuan Amey ** 28:39 No, I'm a man of answers. I need answers so. So when I think the military kind of did that to me too, but I've always been that guy who asked questions to you, even when I was younger, I was at, man, will you just sit down and we'll get to it, you know? So the military made it worse, because I became an instructor, and as an instructor, you tend to ask questions, so you can see what the person is thinking, how they're thinking, you know, making sure they're processing the information correctly. And so I am now doing that to everybody. I've put my instructor hat back on, and I'm going to asking questions that I need to know the answers   Michael Hingson ** 29:21 to so, how long after the accident, did you start doing this?   Kijuan Amey ** 29:25 Oh, no, this was a Maybe the day after I woke up from my medically induced coma. Okay, so, so the day I was informed of the accident, which was June the sixth, when I woke up out of my medically induced coma because I hate the panic button, basically not being a receipt or talk, you know what I mean? So, so I needed to figure something out, and that's when I asked the question, Well, what happened to me? Or what is the question I asked was, What? What is this motorcycle accident dream you guys are talking about? Because somebody, it was just people in my room talking, right? And they were like, Oh no, that's not a dream. That's what happened to you. And that was when I went into that shutdown period. And how long were you in that period? That was, that was the like, 12 to 16 hours or so that I didn't talk okay? And so the next day, June the seventh, is when I was like, hey, hey, I need to find something now. And that's what happened to me. What really happened?   Michael Hingson ** 30:30 So when that occurred? So now, on the seventh of June, did you just basically decide fairly quickly you got to move beyond from this, or did? Was it devastating for a while?   Kijuan Amey ** 30:44 Yeah, no, that's when the devastation and stuff really kicked in, because it made me say, What the heck, man, like, you know, somebody did this to me, you know, and I can't get back, none of that stuff. Yeah, that was taken away from me. I have all these different parts inside of me. I got metal plates in my head, screw rods and screws in my back, rods in both legs, a screw in my foot, like I even have two different sized feet now.   Michael Hingson ** 31:16 So how long was it before you started to decide you gotta go off and do something else with your life, and you're not gonna just let all of this rule you   Kijuan Amey ** 31:28 let's see when, when did that kind of transfer that it took me a little while, because I had to get acclimated to the new right life, you know, at first. So I think that would be around maybe I know I went on my first plane ride as a visually impaired person in 2018 So December of 2018 I went to my first blind rehab center. Where was that? In Tucson, Arizona. Okay, okay. The one for the V The VA has a couple of them. I can't remember how many it is, but that was the one I went to, because that was the first one to accept. I didn't want to go to the one that was closest to me. I've been to Georgia. It's okay. I wanted to go somewhere I haven't been, you know what I mean? And not no no shot at Georgia. I just wanted to go somewhere different, you know, yeah, and so that's what I did. And at first I wanted to go to Mississippi, but they took way too long to respond. And so anywho, I'm trying to get this done today, not next year, you know. And so I went there from December of 2018 until February of 2019 okay, I'm a pretty fast learner, and everything, when you go to those to the VA blind rehab centers, is at your own pace. You're fully embedded like you know, you're there the whole time. You got a room, you got everything, so they fully submerge you into this program, and you leave when you're ready. And so it only took me, and it wasn't even a full two months, is but, but I say two months because December to February, but anyway, I learned what I needed to learn, and I got out of there. I even learned stuff that I didn't know I wanted to learn, like copper tooling, wood working, you know, what's the other one? What's the leather? What's when you do leather? Yeah, but yeah, I I've even done stuff with leather, and that's so cool. It's pretty cool to do that stuff, but, yeah, I did all of that stuff, man. It's amazing. And, you know, come back home to show everybody what I learned, and they're like, Wow, you're like, a whole nother person. I said, Well, you know, I did pick up few things. And so once I got that under my belt, you know, the ability to know how to navigate, I still was not, like, really stable, because I hadn't. I hadn't, I didn't start lifting weights, or, you know, doing any like physical training, training, like legitimate training, until right before the pandemic, I was going to the YMCA and swimming, because, as we know, swimming is a full body workout, and so I was hitting the lap pool with a recreational therapist. And so what, man, that was the worst when that pandemic hit in March of 2020, yeah, because, trust me, I'll never forget it. That was when everything was looking up for me. I was like, Oh, this is so amazing. I'm I'm getting stronger, you know? I'm able to move a little bit better, get more confident in my life. And then, bam, shut everything down. I said, What? We can't go out. Wait. Everything's closed. Oh, okay, it'll only be two weeks. Oh, okay, that's okay. I could wait for two weeks. That's not that bad, yeah, but it'll be another month. Well, you said three months, six months, okay, I don't like this. So yeah, that's when everything started to come down. But then it went back up in 2021   Michael Hingson ** 35:25 Yeah, later in 2021 it started to lift   Kijuan Amey ** 35:28 Well, I mean, for me, for me in 2021 it was when I started actually working out by actually lifting weights again.   Michael Hingson ** 35:38 Now, were you still in the military? Swimming? Were you still in the military at this time I   Kijuan Amey ** 35:43 retired? Or was literally, uh, like, officially, medically retired, June 3, 2021, but again, I had not been to work since May. No, I understand 17, you know. So there's nothing that I'm doing at work. And when I did go down there, it was just kind of the just kind of a visit and hang out with those guys for the day.   Michael Hingson ** 36:07 You mean, they wouldn't give you a long cane and let you go ahead and continue to refuel aircraft, because you could just find the the appropriate place with the cane. They   Kijuan Amey ** 36:15 they would have had to switch it to the left hand, because I'm left handed, and they and they make you do that with the right hand, that refueling side, I'm way better with my left hand. Well, but hey, I would have gave it a shot, but, but   Michael Hingson ** 36:29 you don't move, yeah, but you, but you, but you had to make along the way the decision that you were going to move forward, which is what it sounds like you, you were doing. And certainly by June of 2021, when you retired and and so on, you made the decision that you were going to do your best to continue to to advance and do something else with your world. Oh   Kijuan Amey ** 37:00 yeah, yeah, no. I mean, the pandemic actually was a part of good and bad. I mean, yes, it made me upset because they kept pushing the timeline and stuff back. But October of 2020, that's when I started writing my book. So that was in the pandemic. I started writing my book. You know, I learned how to use a computer again in September. And then once I got that down pack, hey, I'm going to the next thing. What's the title of the book? Don't focus on why me. From motorcycle accident to miracle. Got it Okay, so that's the name of it. Yeah, that's the name of it. And, excuse me, like I said, I wrote the book, or started writing the book October 2020, but I wanted to publish it in May of 2021, because of the accident. You know, the accident was in May. I wanted to publish the book in May. Well, it didn't quite happen like that, because timelines get pushed back, because you got to get an editor, you got to get a book formatter, you got to get it covered. Oh, it was taking a long time. And so anywho, it got published in June of 2021, which is my entire retirement month. So I was okay with it. I retired and I published a book, a self published, by the way, a book in June of 2021, which is a big month for me, so I celebrate both good   Michael Hingson ** 38:32 so you did that, yep. And were you? So you got retired in June. And when, what did you decide to do? Or when did you decide to find work?   Kijuan Amey ** 38:47 Well, I don't, I don't really consider what I do work, and I'll tell you why, so as we will from what you're about to find out, I am the proud founder, and I call myself a chief motivational officer, not a CEO of Amey motivation. Now Amey motivation, I do keynote speaking motivationally based most of the time, and then I also am a trusted mentor and a resilience coach. So I don't feel like I'm working. I feel like I'm actually doing a service and giving back, right? I'm sorry, go ahead. No, I agree with you when I'm when I when I said a job, I kind of put it in air quotes, but anyway, I got you, but yeah, no, that's how I feel in my, you know, giving back. Because I almost feel like this is a type of ministry, a type of healing, a type of journey that not only benefits me, but benefits others. And it doesn't even feel like I'm working when I do this stuff. It just feels like I'm having a conversation. It feels like I'm building. It feels like I'm helping others, you know. And I. I couldn't even dare say that I feel like I'm working, and it's not even because I'm making good money. It's not because people are paying me, it's not because I travel to do this. It's because I really just don't feel like this is work, sure. Now, when I was in the military, that was work, you know, that felt like work. But this really does not. It's enjoyable, you know, and that's the beauty of it. And I love what I do.   Michael Hingson ** 40:34 But when did you decide to start motivating people?   Kijuan Amey ** 40:38 Well, that started back before the pandemic, too. And my first speech, like official, big speech, shall I say, anyway, was May of 2019, that's when I came out and told everybody, you know, kind of what, what happened to me, my story. Because, you know, everybody was hearing what happened to me on Facebook. I can't stand when I see a post of something bad happening to somebody on social media. Let me tell my story. And so that's what I did. And the title of that, that, uh, that speaking engagement, was, why not me? And everybody, I'm sure, was like, Wait, what the heck? Why is it called that? And I said, you're gonna have to come in to find out. You know, so anywho I told my story, and I do have a snippet of it on my website, Amy motivation.com   Michael Hingson ** 41:33 and Amy is spelled, a, yeah,   Kijuan Amey ** 41:36 A, M, E, y, right. So, you know, I did tell my story about just being the vulnerable side of what happened to me, how I feel, how I got through it, what I went through, what I was dealing with, you know, and man, when I tell you it was, you could literally hear a pin drop, and we were on carpet. Okay, so it was so quiet in there. Everybody was very attentive. It was a packed house, to say the least. There was not one empty seat, except for behind me, because, no, I didn't want anybody behind me. I wanted everybody to be out front. And so that was the only spot where there was an empty seat. I had people on the right side of me, people on the left side of me, people in front of me, everywhere. And so anywho you know, it was just an amazing speech and an amazing time, because a lot of people there, I knew some people I didn't, but a lot of people there I knew. And after they heard it and came up and talked to me after the speech, they were like, Man, I didn't even know you were going through that. I didn't even know this happened to you. I didn't even know that happened. I said, that's why I had to tell it, because what y'all are hearing on Facebook is partially true, and it's part of the story. It's not the whole story. Let me tell the whole story. So yeah, that's where all that started. I also did before that speech. I also did a couple of talks at high school, local high schools in Durham too. So my high school, Southern high school, my alma mater, another local high school called Jordan High School. So yeah, you know, just different things like that,   Michael Hingson ** 43:31 but you still ultimately were the one that you made the choice to do it. You made the choice to move on, which is so cool, because I can think of any number of people who, if they had the same sorts of things happen to them that happened to you, would give up, and you clearly did not,   Kijuan Amey ** 43:50 absolutely not. I think the hardest part for me is I can't sit down. Yeah, so, so me giving up is basically like me sitting down so and I can't do that. I'm like a person like the Energizer Bunny. As soon as you put a battery anywhere near me, I'm gone   Michael Hingson ** 44:09 well, and it's so much more rewarding to do that, I know for me after the World Trade Center attacks and so on, and we started getting calls asking me to come and talk about September 11 and what people should learn. My wife and I decided that selling life and philosophy was a whole lot more fun and rewarding, which is really probably the biggest issue, rewarding psychologically, was much more rewarding than selling computer hardware and managing a computer hardware sales team, which is what I did. So, yeah, it became also a a path and something that was worth doing. And I agree it, it is. It isn't work, right? Not. Not in the same way, but that is also in part because we've chosen to structure it and make it work that way, that it's not work.   Kijuan Amey ** 45:09 Yeah, yeah. You know what is. By the way, I love your story. I did hear it on another podcast that I listened to, who that I was interviewed by. And so the the so the day of the World Trade Center and the attacks, the plane that I used to fly on the KC 135 was actually the first plane to come check it out. That was the actually the first plane to come report what had happened, because it was one already airborne, nearby, and then when they look, they loop back around, and they were like, wait, the second one's on fire. Yeah. When did that happen? Like it was basically just like that. There was a   Michael Hingson ** 45:52 Air Canada flight. We met, well, I didn't. My wife did. Met the pilot. We were out in San Francisco, and I was doing a presentation, and she told me about it after the speech, but she said she was coming down on the elevator, and there was a pilot from Air Canada, and they got to talking, and she explained why she was there and what what we were doing. And he said that his plane was the first passenger plane over the world trade center after things happened. And as she said, the FBI must be, have become one of your favorite friends, right, or one of your best friends? And he said, Yeah, they sure did. But   Kijuan Amey ** 46:38 I don't want to get that knock,   Michael Hingson ** 46:40 but it's but it is a choice, and yeah, for for us, the other part about it was that the media got the story, and I feel so blessed, ironically, given how everybody likes to abuse reporters in the Media, but I got so many requests for interviews, and clearly it made sense to do what we could to try to educate and help people move on from September 11, so we accepted the interview requests. And for me personally, what I really learned is something, well, I kind of rediscovered and it got reaffirmed, was that, in reality, talking about something that happens to you like that is the most important thing, because talking about it gives you the opportunity to think about it and move on. And I got asked so many different questions by reporters, some intelligent, some not some in the middle. But the bottom line is that by talking to literally hundreds and hundreds of reporters, that made me talk about it, which was a very good blessing by the time all was said and done,   Kijuan Amey ** 47:54 right, right, instead of internalizing, yeah, no, listen, I also have to say, I'm glad you were in some shape, because what it was 78 floors, yeah, golly, hey, I don't want to hear you say 10, you know. But 78 floors,   Michael Hingson ** 48:15 it was going down. So that's pretty good. As I tell people, I do understand, but as I tell people, the next week, for the next week I was starting, actually the next day, I was stiff as a board. The adrenaline ran out. And, oh, it's horrible. And, yeah, you know, my wife was in a wheelchair her whole life, and we were in a two story house we built so there was an elevator. And I swear, for the next week after September 11, I use that elevator a whole lot more than she did.   Kijuan Amey ** 48:43 Ah, that's funny,   Michael Hingson ** 48:46 but, but, you know, it was just kind of the way it was. But it is a choice, yes, and the bottom line is that we we move on you. You certainly had lots of things happen to you. You lost a lot of things. Did you ever get your sense of smell back? Or is it still gone?   Kijuan Amey ** 49:01 No, no. It was damaged during the reconstructive surgery on my face where they had to input the two plates. Yeah. Okay, yeah. So that's where that came from. So now it happened, shall I say? So   Michael Hingson ** 49:13 now getting back to something that we talked about at the very beginning, as you point out, you lost your site, but you didn't lose your vision. So tell me more about that, what that means to you, and why you say that. Because, as I said, that's something that that I've thought and talked about a lot. And of course, when thunder dog was written, we put that into thunder dog. And by the way, if you don't know it, Thunder dog and and all three of my books actually are on on Bard, so you can download them, or you can help a poor, starving author and go buy them, but, but, you know,   Kijuan Amey ** 49:50 come on, I think you will off. Mr. Steve Harvey, No, I'm joking. But anywho. So, as I mentioned before. Four, you know, when I was talking about my business, I don't necessarily feel like I'm working. I feel like I'm helping and and what I mean, the reason I even preface that is because when I say I may have lost my sight, but I didn't lose my vision. Sight, to me, is the physical, the vision is the mental. And so my mental was helping others, and it's always been that way, whether it was me playing sports, I had to help in some way, because I played team sports. Now, did I play any individual? No, I played all team sports. I did bowling, I did football, the basketball and ran track. All of those are team sports. And so you can roll in singles, but at the same sense, some point you're going to be doing either doubles or three or four person teams. So most of the time I was doing teams and doubles. But anyway, I was always doing some kind of helping. I grew up with siblings. I had to help somebody. I, you know, I grew up with without much, so we had to help each other. Hey, you don't know how to cook. Let me show you. You don't know how to fix this in the microwave. Let me show you, you know. And so, um, when I got to the military, I had to help, you know, when I was became an instructor, I was helping teach the people who are coming in new and all these different times I'm helping people. And now I get to a point where, not only I have to help myself get back to where I can have some kind of normalcy of life, but what really is a normal life? You know what I mean? Yeah, I had to help others understand that if I can make it through this, you can make it through what you're dealing with as well, and be there to help you.   Michael Hingson ** 51:57 How about going the other way? Though you needed help too, yeah, yeah. And were you advanced enough in your thinking at the time that you were perfectly willing to accept help as well?   Kijuan Amey ** 52:12 Uh, no, I had my moments. Um, there. There's a chapter in my book I called, uh, it's called the depression set in, and that was when I was at one of my lower points, because not too long after depression, where the suicidal thoughts, the suicidal thoughts, luckily, didn't take me out and I never attempted, because I was able to think my way. I'm a very critical thinker, Problem Solver kind of guy, so I was able to think my way out of even having those thoughts again. And I said, Hey, man, this is not you. I don't know what it is, but it's not you. And so instead of me continuing to have those thoughts, I started asking people questions, what can I do? Because this is not like, it's not working, whatever life is not working for me, right? You know, and I'm a faith believer. So my grandmother, I was living with her at the time, and the first she's a faith believer as well. And the first thing she says is, you know, just pray. You know, just pray about it. I said, Grandma, we pray every day. Hear me clearly. I didn't say, some days we pray every day this obviously, and I'm not saying it's not working, but it needs something more. And so she was, well, I don't know what to tell you. And then eventually she goes in her room and thinks about it for a minute, and she said, Why don't you call your uncle? And I said, You know what? It's not a bad idea. And he, by the way, he's a senior pastor at his church, and so I said, that's not a bad idea. I didn't think to call my pastor because I didn't want to bother him. It's kind of one of those things you just felt like, I don't want him to think about that. I've had it on his mind, you know, stuff like that. And so I called my uncle, and I was telling telling him how I was feeling, and all I heard him say was, hold on key, I'm on the way. It was like eight o'clock at night, so for him to be like, Hey, I'm HOLD ON key, I'm on the way. That's what they call me Ki, my family. Some of them call me kiwi, but some call me Ki. But anyway, just as long as they don't call me late for dinner. And so I was like, Wait, he he's coming over here, you know? So I said, Okay. And I hung up the phone, and my grandma's like, Well, what did he say? I said, he said he's on the way. She's like, he went. I said, Exactly. That's what I said. And so she said, Oh Lord, well, let me put on some clothes. I said, let you put on some clothes. I need to put on some clothes. And. Yeah, and so anyway, we both get dressed somewhat. I wasn't, like, fully dressed. I just put on, like, some, you know, some basketball shorts, a shirt, yeah, you know, stuff like that. Because I'm thinking, we're just going to hang out at the house. He's going to talk to me. He's like, Hey, man, you want to throw on some pants and, you know, go out and put on some shoes. I said, Where we going? It's like, for a ride. I said, Okay, uh, yeah, uh, grandma, and she came back in there, she's like, Yeah, he's like, we're gonna go for a ride. Um, can you get my sweatpants from over this here? Because I knew where everything was in the room, and you know how it is, we know where everything is, where we put stuff. We know exactly where it is, right? And so I knew everything was get my sweat pants from this drawer and get my shirt from that drawer. And I said, No, it's the second drawer, not the third and stuff. So we I get dressed, we go for a ride, and he's talking. No, no, I'm talking first. He let me talk. He said, So key, tell me what's up. I said, I ran through the gambit of what I was going down with me, how I had the depressed thoughts, how I had some suicidal thoughts, but I had to bring myself back out of this, and I just could not figure out why this was coming over me like that. And he was like, Uh huh. And then, you know, I just stopped talking for a while. He said, You know what key I said, What's that? He said, I'm surprised it took you this long. I was like, What do you mean? He was like, Dude, I thought this would have happened to you a long time ago? He said, I've been waiting on this. And I said, that's crazy. Like I'm sitting there thinking, man, what the heck? You know? I'm thinking. People ain't thinking about me. Nobody's like, really, can't they see me smiling, laughing, giggling and all that stuff. So they're probably not even thinking about it, you know. But he was actually prepared. He's prepared for what I call the breakdown. And he said, Keith, I think the best thing you can do, and this is when we pulled over somewhere and start talking. He said, The best thing I think you can do with this situation is you're going to have to embrace and confront the issue. And I said, Can you explain that a little bit more? He's like, Yeah, yeah. He said, what it is, I think, is your the hope that we all have is for you to regain your eyesight. But the real realization is you don't have it right now. So I need you to live like you don't have it and hope that one day you'll get it. So don't keep dwelling on the hope part. Just live like you don't have it, and that way you'll keep moving forward versus thinking you're going to get it, because these thoughts are taking you down. Every day you wake up, every time you wake up from a nap, you think you're gonna open your eyes and see something that's gonna keep bringing you further and further down. I need you to embrace this thing and don't live in the denial phase of it happening. And that was when I started to come out like that was when I really started to gain some strength and a stronger mindset. Very wise words, oh, yeah, no, these are all he is, trust me, I'm just regurgitating them. I'm sorry. Oh, I said, yeah, these were definitely his words. I'm just regurgitating,   Michael Hingson ** 58:46 yeah, well, but, but certainly some, some good wisdom there. But you also then chose to follow, which is great, and probably whether he's surprised it took so long. It sounds like it all happened at the right time, because you are also willing to listen, which is great. So you you moved forward. When did you form your company?   Kijuan Amey ** 59:12 I mean, on paper, it was like two years ago, okay, um, but like I said, officially, I started speaking in 2019 right? I understand that, yeah. But so I always count 2019 because I really believe as soon as you start doing something, you're doing it, right, yeah, you understand and and the legality side of it, hey, you can have that. I don't care. But yeah. So that's how I view it.   Michael Hingson ** 59:44 So how did 10 years, if you will, even though some of it was less active, but how did 10 years in the military help prepare you for public speaking and what you're doing today?   Kijuan Amey ** 59:56 Oh, wow. I mean, well, first off, like I told you, the resilience coaching. Mm. Um, that's part of it, and that's all they used to talk about in the military, being resilient. We used to have, like, a training, I think it was every year, is it every year or twice a year, or something like that, but we used to have training on that stuff. Um, speaking, I I never really wanted to be a public speaker. I'll be honest. Um, I do have to stay that, say, say that, because I was not one who wanted to be in the spotlight. But if the spotlight found me, I'm okay with it. You know that that's that's what I was okay with. If it found me, that's fine, but I'm not trying to take over it. Don't put it on me, shine that light somewhere else and so, but what happened with that? Okay, yes, I took, I was in college for a while, and I did take a public speaking class with the instructor. Upgrade. You have to do public speaking, because you have to give presentations going through the pre training and the actual training, the certification training. So those were different. And also the the group sizes were different. Size you might be talking to one person you might be talking to an auditorium full. Mm, hmm. So there, there was that. And, you know? So these different things, I speak for different things at my church, you know? And so it started to kind of snowball again. Different things were building me up to that point, and as I got and you'll, you'll appreciate this here, as I got into my vision, or the eyesight loss, I understood that I have a superpower. Now, yeah, and I know people like a superpower. What are you talking about, man? So I can't see you so the the looks on your faces don't affect me, the fact that I'm looking at, or supposedly looking at, engaging an audience of one to 10 to 100 to even 1500 because I have spoken to over 1500 people before, it does not affect me, yeah? And that is like us to me, my superpower now. So that's how I've changed all of this to be fitting for me. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:32 yeah. Well, so let me ask you this. We've been doing this for a while, but I want to ask you one more question. Other people are certainly going through challenges. They're experiencing difficulties in their lives, and maybe some life altering kinds of situations. What kind of advice would you give them?   Kijuan Amey ** 1:02:54 Oh, the first one I can easily give you don't give up, and it's easily easy to give, but it's not easy to do. So I do have to say that you but if you keep that in the back of your mind, don't give up and you keep saying that to yourself, make it an affirmation. Put it on your vision board, put it in as a reminder in your phone, whatever you need to keep you grounded in that concept of, don't give up. And so that's one thing I would say. And for myself, I say this a lot, my situation, whether it's me being blind, me being having a traumatic brain injury, me having emotional, you know, flare ups, spinal cord issues or lack of mobility, what, whatever it is my situation that doesn't define who I am. I define who I am.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:56 So that's what I'll leave people with. And that is so true for everyone. Your your conditions don't define you. You've defined you, and you can choose how you want to be defined. Which gets back to, don't let your sight get in the way of your vision. Yep. Well, key one, I want to thank you for being here. I hope that people take this to heart, and I hope it will generate more business for you, if people want to reach out to you, maybe for coaching or for speaking and so on. How do they do that? Yeah,   Kijuan Amey ** 1:04:33 and I appreciate you saying that. So again, you can go to my website. That's Amey, motivation.com A, M, E, y, motivation.com you can also find my book on there. So don't focus on why me from motorcycle accident to miracle. You can also go on Amazon, Kindle Apple books as well as audible to find my book as well. So I do have audio versions out there for those who like to listen to their book. Books and for speaking engagements, feel free to click that book me link you can speak book me for a convention or conference or an event, a gala, high school, college, whatever you want me to come speak for. Come get me because I am all over it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:18 How many speaking events do you do a year.   Kijuan Amey ** 1:05:21 I don't count. Okay, if I try to count,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:24 you know what I mean? I know the feeling, yeah,   Kijuan Amey ** 1:05:27 I just do Hey, hey. That's, I think that's what Nike said. Just do it, man.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:31 Yeah, exactly right. Well, Kijuan, thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you who are out there listening or watching. Really, we're grateful that you're here. I hope that what we've talked about today not only inspires you, but it gives you some good life thoughts that you can go use. Because certainly, everything that we got to discuss today is relevant, not just if you are having a challenge in your life, but it's something that is important for all of us. Life lessons like these don't grow on trees, and I hope that you'll enjoy them and use them. Reach out to key one. I'd love to hear from you. Love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at access, A, B, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S O, n.com/podcast, love you to please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening. We love your reviews and your thoughts, so please do that, and as I also love to do, and that is to ask you, if you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on this podcast. And Kijuan you as well, love to get your thoughts. Feel free to reach out, introduce us to anyone who you think ought to be a guest. We're always looking for more people who want to come on and and share their stories and help us all become more unstoppable than we think we are. But again, really appreciate your time today, everyone and Kiju, especially you. Thanks for being here. This has been wonderful.   Kijuan Amey ** 1:07:15 Thank you again. I really appreciate you having me on to tell my story.   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:22 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Episode Notes In our second convention special we go to New Orleans with our presentation to the National Federation of the Blind. Staff from Service Delivery, Marketing and Sales, and Engineering talk about their roles and this year's updates. Then CEO Troy Otillio talks AI and Aira's involvement with Google Deep Mind's Project Astra.  Sign up to become a trusted tester at https://aira.io/projectastra. Learn more about visual interpreting at https://aira.io. Call our Customer Care Team at 1-800-835-1934 or email support@aira.io. Email us: airacast@aira.io Find out more at https://airacast.pinecast.co This podcast is powered by Pinecast.

Ryan Wrecker leads Hour 2 with a sharp discussion on Texas Democrats fleeing to Illinois amid redistricting fights, featuring Julie Harris of the National Federation of Republican Women, who highlights GOP grassroots efforts targeting key swing states. Former Missouri senator John Lamping weighs in on a lawsuit challenging taxpayer-funded stadiums for pro teams and the likelihood of a Missouri special session on redistricting, explaining the deep political maneuvers behind these moves. The hour wraps with a bizarre news roundup about a Danish zoo soliciting small pets for predator food, the notorious corpse flower blooming locally, and a rare whale striking a boat in New Jersey—strange stories to offset heavy politics.

David Mayernik is an architect, artist, writer, educator and most of all, he is a life-long student. David grew up in Allentown Pennsylvania. As he tells us during this episode, even at a young age of two he already loved to draw. He says he always had a pencil and paper with him and he used them constantly. His mother kept many of his drawings and he still has many of them to this day.   After graduating from University of Notre Dame David held several positions with various architectural firms. He always believed that he learned more by teaching himself, however, and eventually he decided to leave the professional world of architecture and took teaching positions at Notre Dame. He recently retired and is now Professor Emeritus at Notre Dame.   Our conversation is far ranging including discussions of life, the importance of learning and growing by listening to your inner self. David offers us many wonderful and insightful lessons and thoughts we all can use. We even talk some about about how technology such as Computer Aided Design systems, (CAD), are affecting the world of Architecture. I know you will enjoy what David has to say. Please let me know your thoughts through email at michaelhi@accessibe.com.     About the Guest:   David Mayernik is an architect, artist, writer, and educator. He was born in 1960 in Allentown, Pennsylvania; his parents were children of immigrants from Slovakia and Italy. He is a Fellow of the American Academy in Rome and the British Royal Society for the Encouragement of Arts, Manufactures, and Commerce, and has won numerous grants, awards and competitions, including the Gabriel Prize for research in France, the Steedman Competition, and the Minnesota State Capitol Grounds competition (with then partner Thomas N. Rajkovich). In 1995 he was named to the decennial list of the top forty architects in the United States under forty. In the fall of 2022, he was a resident at the Bogliasco Foundation in Liguria and the Cini foundation in Venice.   His design work for the TASIS campus in Switzerland over twenty-eight years has been recognized with a Palladio Award from Traditional Building magazine, an honorable mention in the INTBAU Excellence Awards, and a jury prize from the Prix Européen d'Architecture Philippe Rotthier. TASIS Switzerland was named one of the nine most beautiful boarding schools in the world by AD Magazine in March 2024. For ten years he also designed a series of new buildings for TASIS England in Surrey.   David Mayernik studied fresco painting with the renowned restorer Leonetto Tintori, and he has painted frescoes for the American Academy in Rome, churches in the Mugello and Ticino, and various buildings on the TASIS campus in Switzerland. He designed stage sets for the Haymarket Opera company of Chicago for four seasons between 2012 and 2014. He won the competition to paint the Palio for his adopted home of Lucca in 2013. His paintings and drawings have been exhibited in New York, Chicago, London, Innsbruck, Rome, and Padova and featured in various magazines, including American Artist and Fine Art Connoisseur.   David Mayernik is Professor Emeritus with the University of Notre Dame, where for twenty years he taught in the School of Architecture. He is the author of two books, The Challenge of Emulation in Art and Architecture (Routledge, UK) and Timeless Cities: An Architect's Reflections on Renaissance Italy, (Basic Books), and numerous essays and book chapters, including “The Baroque City” for the Oxford Handbook of the Baroque. In 2016 he created the online course The Meaning of Rome for Notre Dame, hosted on the edX platform, which had an audience of six thousand followers. Ways to connect with David:   Website: www.davidmayernik.com Instagram: davidmayernik LinkedIn: davidmayernik EdX: The Meaning of Rome https://www.edx.org/learn/humanities/university-of-notre-dame-the-meaning-of-rome-the-renaissance-and-baroque-city     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:17 Well, hi and welcome once again. Wherever you happen to be, to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to chat with David Mayernik, unless you're in Europe, and then it's David Mayernik, but either way, we're glad to have him. He is an architect. He is an award winning architect. He's an author. He's done a number of things in his life, and we're going to talk about all of those, and it's kind of more fun to let him be the one to talk more about it, and then I can just pick up and ask questions as we go, and that's what we'll do. But we're really glad that he's here. So David, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   David Mayernik ** 01:57 Oh, thanks so much. Michael, thanks for the invitation. I'm looking forward to it.   Michael Hingson ** 02:02 Well, I know we've been working on getting this set up, and David actually happens to be in Italy today, as opposed to being in the US. He was a professor at Notre Dame for 20 years, but he has spent a lot of time in Europe and elsewhere, and I'm sure he's going to talk about that. But why don't we start, as I mentioned earlier, as I love to do, tell us kind of about the early David growing up.   David Mayernik ** 02:25 Well, so my both of my parents passed away several years ago, and when I was at my mom's funeral, one of our next door neighbors was telling my wife what I was like when I was a kid, and she said he was very quiet and very intense. And I suppose that's how I was perceived. I'm not sure I perceived myself that way I did. The thing about me is I've always drawn my mom. I mean, lots of kids draw, but I drew like credibly, well, when I was, you know, two and three years old. And of course, my mother saved everything. But the best thing about it was that I always had paper and pencil available. You know, we were terribly well off. We weren't poor, but we weren't, you know, well to do, but I never lacked for paper and pencils, and that just allowed me to just draw as much as I possibly could.   Michael Hingson ** 03:16 And so I guess the other question is, of course, do you still have all those old drawings since your mom kept   David Mayernik ** 03:23 them? Well, you know? Yeah, actually, after she passed, I did get her, Well, her collection of them. I don't know that all of them. My father had a penchant for throwing things away, unfortunately. So some of the archive is no longer with us, but no but enough of it. Just odds and bits from different areas of my life. And the thing is, you know, I was encouraged enough. I mean, all kids get encouraged. I think when they're young, everything they do is fabulous, but I had enough encouragement from people who seem to take it seriously that I thought maybe I had something and and it was the kind of thing that allowed me to have enough confidence in myself that I actually enjoyed doing it and and mostly, my parents were just impressed. You know, it just was impressive to them. And so I just happily went along my own way. The thing about it was that I really wanted to find my own path as somebody who drew and had a chance in high school for a scholarship to a local art school. I won a competition for a local art school scholarship, and I went for a couple of lessons, and I thought, you know, they're just teaching me to draw like them. I want to draw like me. So for better or worse, I'm one of those autodidacts who tries to find my own way, and, you know, it has its ups and downs. I mean, the downside of it is it's a slower learning process. Is a lot more trial and error. But the upside of it is, is that it's your own. I mean, essentially, I had enough of an ego that, you know, I really wanted to do. Things my way.   Michael Hingson ** 05:02 Well, you illustrate something that I've believed and articulate now I didn't used to, but I do now a lot more, which is I'm my own best teacher. And the reality is that you you learn by doing, and people can can give you information. And, yeah, you're right. Probably they wanted you to mostly just draw like them. But the bottom line is, you already knew from years of drawing as a child, you wanted to perhaps go a slightly different way, and you worked at it, and it may have taken longer, but look at what you learned.   David Mayernik ** 05:37 Yeah, I think it's, I mean, for me, it's, it's important that whatever you do, you do because you feel like you're being true to yourself somehow. I mean, I think that at least that's always been important to me, is that I don't, I don't like doing things for the sake of doing them. I like doing them because I think they matter. And I like, you know, I think essentially pursuing my own way of doing it meant that it always was, I mean, beyond just personal, it was something I was really committed to. And you know, the thing about it, eventually, for my parents was they thought it was fabulous, you know, loved great that you draw, but surely you don't intend to be an artist, because, you know, you want to have a job and make a living. And so I eventually realized that in high school, that while they, well, they probably would have supported anything I did that, you know, I was being nudged towards something a little bit more practical, which I think happens to a lot of kids who choose architecture like I did. It's a way, it's a practical way of being an artist and and that's we could talk about that. But I think that's not always true.   Michael Hingson ** 06:41 Bill, go ahead, talk about that. Well, I think that the   David Mayernik ** 06:44 thing about architecture is that it's become, well, one it became a profession in America, really, in the 20th century. I mean, it's in the sense that there was a licensing exam and all the requirements of what we think of as, you know, a professional service that, you know, like being a lawyer or a doctor, that architecture was sort of professionalized in the 20th century, at least in the United States. And, and it's a business, you know, ostensibly, I mean, you're, you know, you're doing what you do for a fee. And, and so architecture tries to balance the art part of it, or the creative side, the professional side of it, and the business side. And usually it's some rather imperfect version of all of those things. And the hard part, I think the hardest part to keep alive is the art part, because the business stuff and the professional stuff can really kind of take over. And that's been my trial. Challenge is to try to have it all three ways, essentially.   Michael Hingson ** 07:39 Do you think that Frank Lloyd Wright had a lot to do with bringing architecture more to the forefront of mindsets, mindsets, and also, of course, from an art standpoint, clearly, he had his own way of doing things.   David Mayernik ** 07:54 Yeah, absolutely he comes from, I mean, I wouldn't call it a rebellious tradition, but there was a streak of chafing at East Coast European classicism that happened in Chicago. Louis Sullivan, you know, is mostly responsible for that. And I but, but Right, had this, you know, kind of heroic sense of himself and and I think that his ability to draw, which was phenomenal. His sense that he wanted to do something different, and his sense that he wanted to do something American, made him a kind of a hero. Eventually, I think it coincided with America's growing sense of itself. And so for me, like lot of kids in America, my from my day, if you told somebody in high school you wanted to be an architect, they would give you a book on Frank Lloyd Wright. I mean, that's just, you know, part of the package.   Michael Hingson ** 08:47 Yeah, of course, there are others as well, but still, he brought a lot into it. And of course there, there are now more architects that we hear about and designers and so on the people what, I m Pei, who designed the world, original World Trade Center and other things like that. Clearly, there are a number of people who have made major impacts on the way we design and think of Building and Construction today,   David Mayernik ** 09:17 you know, I mean America's, you know, be kind of, it really was a leader in the development of architecture in the 20th century. I mean, in the 19th century was very much, you know, following what was happening in Europe. But essentially, by the 20th century, the America had a sense of itself that didn't always mean that it rejected the European tradition. Sometimes it tried to do it, just bigger and better, but, but it also felt like it had its, you know, almost a responsibility to find its own way, like me and, you know, come up with an American kind of architecture and and so it's always been in a kind of dialog with architecture from around the world. I mean, especially in Europe, at Frank Lloyd Wright was heavily influenced by Japanese architecture and. And so we've always seen ourselves, I think, in relationship to the world. And it's just the question of whether we were master or pupil to a certain extent,   Michael Hingson ** 10:07 and in reality, probably a little bit of both.   David Mayernik ** 10:12 Yeah, and we are, and I think, you know, acknowledging who we are, the fact that we didn't just, you know, spring from the earth in the United States, where we're all, I mean, essentially all immigrants, mostly, and essentially we, you know, essentially bring, we have baggage, essentially, as a culture, from lots of other places. And that's actually an advantage. I mean, I think it's actually what makes us a rich culture, is the diversity. I mean, even me, my father's family was Slovak, my mother's family Italian. And, you know from when I tell you know Europeans that they think that's just quintessentially American. That's what makes you an American, is that you're not a purebred of some kind.   Michael Hingson ** 10:49 Yeah, yeah. Pure purebred American is, is really sort of nebulous and and not necessarily overly accurate, because you are probably immigrants or part other kinds of races or nationalities as well. And that's, that's okay.   David Mayernik ** 11:08 It's, it's rich, you know, I think it's, it's a richer. It's the extent to which you want to engage with it. And the interesting thing about my parents was that they were both children of first generation immigrants. My mom's parents had been older Italian, and they were already married, and when they came to the States, my father's parents were younger and Slovak, and they met in the United States. And my father really wasn't that interested in his Slovak heritage. I mean, just, you know, he could speak some of the language, you know, really feel like it was something he wanted to hold on to or pass along, was my mom was, I mean, she loved her parents. She, you know, spoke with him in Italian, or actually not even Italian, the dialect from where her parents came from, which is north of Venice. And so she, I think she kind of, whether consciously or unconsciously, passed that on to me, that sense that I wanted to be. I was interested in where I came from, where the origins of my where my roots were, and it's something that had an appeal for me that wasn't just it wasn't front brain, it was really kind of built into who I was, which is why, you know, one of the reasons I chose to go to Notre Dame to study where I also wound up teaching like, welcome back Carter, is that I we had a Rome program, and so I've been teaching in the Rome program for our school, but we, I was there 44 years ago as a student.   Michael Hingson ** 12:28 Yeah. So quite a while, needless to say. And you know, I think, well, my grandmother on my mother's side was Polish, but I I never did get much in the way of information about the culture and so on from her and and my mom never really dealt with it much, because she was totally from The Bronx in New York, and was always just American, so I never really got a lot of that. But very frankly, in talking to so many people on this podcast over almost the last four years, talking to a number of people whose parents and grandparents all came to this country and how that affected them. It makes me really appreciate the kind of people who we all are, and we all are, are a conglomerate of so many different cultures, and that's okay, yeah? I mean,   David Mayernik ** 13:31 I think it's more than okay, and I think we need to just be honest about it, yeah. And, you know, kind of celebrate it, because the Italians brought with them, you know, tremendous skills. For example, a lot of my grandfather was a stone mason. You know, during the Depression, he worked, you know, the for the WPA essentially sponsored a whole series of public works projects in the parks in the town I grew up in Allentown, Pennsylvania. And Allentown has a fabulous park system. And my grandfather built a lot of stone walls in the parks in the 1930s and, you know, all these cultures that came to the states often brought, you know, specialized skills. You know, from where they they came from, and, and they enriched the American, you know, skill set, essentially, and, and that's, you know, again, that's we are, who we are because of that, you know, I celebrated I, you know, I'm especially connected to my Italian heritage. I feel like, in part because my grandfather, the stone mason, was a bit of jack of all trades. He could paint and draw. And my mom, you know, wrote poetry and painted. And even though she mostly, you know, in my life, was a was a housewife, but before she met my father, and they got married relatively late for their day, she had a professional life in World War Two, my mom actually went to Penn State for a couple of years in the start of at the start of the war, and then parents wanted her to come home, and so she did two years of engineering. Penn State. When she came back to Allentown, she actually got a job at the local airplane manufacturing plant that was making fighter planes for the United States called company called volte, and she did drafting for them. And then after World War Two, she got a job for the local power company drafting modern electrical kitchens and and so I've inherited all my mom's drafting equipment. And, you know, she's, she's very much a kind of a child of the culture that she came from, and in the sense that it was a, you know, artistic culture, a creative culture. And, you know, I definitely happy and proud of   Michael Hingson ** 15:37 that. You know, one of the things that impresses me, and I think about a lot in talking to so many people whose parents and grandparents immigrated to this country and so on, is not just the skill sets that they brought, but the work ethic that they had, that they imparted to people. And I think people who have had a number of generations here have not always kept that, and I think they've lost something very valuable, because that work ethic is what made those people who they were   David Mayernik ** 16:08 absolutely I mean, my Yeah, I mean my father. I mean absolutely true is, I mean tireless worker, capable of tremendous self sacrifice and and, you know, and that whole generation, I mean, he fought in World War Two. He actually joined, joined the Navy underage. He lied about his age to get in the Navy and that. But they were capable of self, tremendous self sacrifice and tremendous effort. And, you know, I think, you know, we're always, you know, these days, we always talk about work life balance. And I have to say, being an architect, most architects don't have a great work life balance. Mostly it's, it's a lot of work and a little bit of life. And that's, I don't, you know. I think not everybody survives that. Not every architects marriage survives that mine has. But I think it's, you know, that the idea that you're, you're sort of defined by what you do. I think there's a lot of talk these days about that's not a good thing. I I'm sort of okay with that. I'm sort of okay with being defined by what I do.   Michael Hingson ** 17:13 Yeah, and, and that that's, that's okay, especially if you're okay with it. That's good. Well, you So you went to Notre Dame, and obviously dealt with architecture. There some,   David Mayernik ** 17:28 yeah. I mean, the thing, the great thing about Notre Dame is to have the Rome program, and that was the idea of actually a Sicilian immigrant to the States in the early 20th century who became a professor at Notre Dame. And he had, he won the Paris prize. A guy named Frank Montana who won the Paris prize in the 1930s went to Harvard and was a professor at Notre Dame. And he had the good idea that, you know, maybe sending kids to five years of architecture education in Indiana, maybe wasn't the best, well rounded education possible, and maybe they should get out of South Bend for a year, and he, on his own initiative, without even support from the university, started a Rome program, and then said to the university, hey, we have a Rome program now. And so that was, that was his instinct to do that. And while I got, I think, a great education there, especially after Rome, the professor, one professor I had after Rome, was exceptional for me. But you know, Rome was just the opportunity to see great architecture. I mean, I had seen some. I mean, I, you know, my parents would go to Philadelphia, New York and, you know, we I saw some things. But, you know, I wasn't really bowled over by architecture until I went to Rome. And just the experience of that really changed my life, and it gave me a direction,   Michael Hingson ** 18:41 essentially. So the Rome program would send you to Rome for a year.   David Mayernik ** 18:46 Yeah, which is unusual too, because a lot of overseas programs do a semester. We were unusual in that the third year out of a five year undergraduate degree in architecture, the whole year is spent in Rome. And you know, when you're 20 ish, you know, 20 I turned 21 when I was over there. It's a real transition time in your life. I mean, it's, it was really transformative. And for all of us, small of my classmates, I mean, we're all kind of grew up. We all became a bit, you know, European. We stopped going to football games when we went back on campus, because it wasn't cool anymore, but, but we, we definitely were transformed by it personally, but, it really opened our eyes to what architecture was capable of, and that once you've, once you've kind of seen that, you know, once you've been to the top of the mountain, kind of thing, it can really get under your skin. And, you know, kind of sponsor whatever you do for the rest of your life. At least for me, it   Michael Hingson ** 19:35 did, yeah, yeah. So what did you do after you graduated?   David Mayernik ** 19:40 Well, I graduated, and I think also a lot of our students lately have had a pretty reasonably good economy over the last couple of decades, that where it's been pretty easy for our students to get a job. I graduated in a recession. I pounded the pavements a lot. I went, you know, staying with my parents and. Allentown, went back and forth to New York, knocking on doors. There was actually a woman who worked at the unemployment agency in New York who specialized in architects, and she would arrange interviews with firms. And, you know, I just got something for the summer, essentially, and then finally, got a job in the in the fall for somebody I wanted to work with in Philadelphia and and that guy left that firm after about three months because he won a competition. He didn't take me with him, and I was in a firm that really didn't want to be with. I wanted to be with him, not with the firm. And so I then I picked up stakes and moved to Chicago and worked for an architect who'd been a visiting professor at Notre Dame eventually became dean at Yale Tom Beebe, and it was a great learning experience, but it was also a lot of hours at low pay. You know, I don't think, I don't think my students, I can't even tell my students what I used to make an hour as a young architect. I don't think they would understand, yeah, I mean, I really don't, but it was, it was a it was the sense that you were, that your early years was a kind of, I mean an apprenticeship. I mean almost an unpaid apprenticeship at some level. I mean, I needed to make enough money to pay the rent and eat, but that was about it. And and so I did that, but I bounced around a lot, you know, and a lot of kids, I think a lot of our students, when they graduate, they think that getting a job is like a marriage, like they're going to be in it forever. And, you know, I, for better or worse, I moved around a lot. I mean, I moved every time I hit what I felt was like a point of diminishing returns. When I felt like I was putting more in and getting less out, I thought it was time to go and try something else. And I don't know that's always good advice. I mean, it can make you look flighty or unstable, but I kind of always followed my my instinct on that.   Michael Hingson ** 21:57 I don't remember how old I was. You're talking about wages. But I remember it was a Sunday, and my parents were reading the newspaper, and they got into a discussion just about the fact that the minimum wage had just been changed to be $1.50 an hour. I had no concept of all of that. But of course, now looking back on it, $1.50 an hour, and looking at it now, it's pretty amazing. And in a sense, $1.50 an hour, and now we're talking about $15 and $16 an hour, and I had to be, I'm sure, under 10. So it was sometime between 1958 and 1960 or so, or maybe 61 I don't remember exactly when, but in a sense, looking at it now, I'm not sure that the minimum wage has gone up all that much. Yes, 10 times what it was. But so many other things are a whole lot more than 10 times what they were back then,   David Mayernik ** 23:01 absolutely, yeah. I mean, I mean, in some ways also, my father was a, my father was a factory worker. I mean, he tried to have lots of other businesses of his own. He, you're, you're obviously a great salesman. And the one skill my father didn't have is he could, he could, like, for example, he had a home building business. He could build a great house. He just couldn't sell it. And so, you know, I think he was a factory worker, but he was able to send my sister and I to private college simultaneously on a factory worker salary, you know, with, with, I mean, I had some student loan debt, but not a lot. And that's, that's not possible today.   Michael Hingson ** 23:42 No, he saved and put money aside so that you could do that, yeah, and,   David Mayernik ** 23:47 and he made enough. I mean, essentially, the cost of college was not that much. And he was, you know, right, yeah. And he had a union job. It was, you know, reasonably well paid. I mean, we lived in a, you know, a nice middle class neighborhood, and, you know, we, we had a nice life growing up, and he was able to again, send us to college. And I that's just not possible for without tremendous amount of debt. It's not possible today. So the whole scale of our economy shifted tremendously. What I was making when I was a young architect. I mean, it was not a lot then, but I survived. Fact, actually saved money in Chicago for a two month summer in Europe after that. So, you know, essentially, the cost of living was, it didn't take a lot to cover your your expenses, right? The advantage of that for me was that it allowed me time when I had free time when I after that experience, and I traveled to Europe, I came back and I worked in Philadelphia for the same guy who had left the old firm in Philadelphia and went off on his own, started his own business. I worked for him for about nine months, but I had time in the evenings, because I didn't have to work 80 hours a week to do other things. I taught myself how to paint. And do things that I was interested in, and I could experiment and try things and and, you know, because surviving wasn't all that hard. I mean, it was easy to pay your bills and, and I think that's one of the things that's, I think, become more onerous, is that, I think for a lot of young people just kind of dealing with both college debt and then, you know, essentially the cost of living. They don't have a lot of time or energy to do anything else. And you know, for me, that was, I had the luxury of having time and energy to invest in my own growth, let's say as a more career, as a creative person. And you know, I also, I also tell students that, you know, there are a lot of hours in the day, you know, and whatever you're doing in an office. There are a lot of hours after that, you could be doing something else, and that I used every one of those hours as best I could.   Michael Hingson ** 25:50 Yeah. Well, you know, we're all born with challenges in life. What kind of challenges, real challenges did you have growing up as you look back on it?   David Mayernik ** 26:01 Yeah, my, I mean, my, I mean, there was some, there was some, a few rocky times when my father was trying to have his own business. And, you know, I'm not saying we grew up. We didn't struggle, but it wasn't, you know, always smooth sailing. But I think one of the things I learned about being an architect, which I didn't realize, and only kind of has been brought home to me later. Right now, I have somebody who's told me not that long ago, you know? You know, the problem is, architecture is a gentleman's profession. You know that IT architecture, historically was practiced by people from a social class, who knew, essentially, they grew up with the people who would become their clients, right? And so the way a lot of architects built their practice was essentially on, you know, family connections and personal connections, college connections. And I didn't have that advantage. So, you know, I've, I've essentially had to define myself or establish myself based on what I'm capable of doing. And you know, it's not always a level playing field. The great breakthrough for me, in a lot of ways, was that one of the one of my classmates and I entered a big international competition when we were essentially 25 years old. I think we entered. I turned 26 and it was an open competition. So, you know, no professional requirements. You know, virtually no entry fee to redesign the state capitol grounds of Minnesota, and it was international, and we, and we actually were selected as one of the top five teams that were allowed to proceed onto the second phase, and at which point we we weren't licensed architects. We didn't have a lot of professional sense or business sense, so we had to associate with a local firm in Minnesota and and we competed for the final phase. We did most of the work. The firm supported us, but they gave us basically professional credibility and and we won. We were the architects of the state capitol grounds in Minnesota, 26 years old, and that's because the that system of competition was basically a level playing field. It was, you know, ostensibly anonymous, at least the first phase, and it was just basically who had the best design. And you know, a lot of the way architecture gets architects get chosen. The way architecture gets distributed is connections, reputation, things like that, but, but you know, when you find those avenues where it's kind of a level playing field and you get to show your stuff. It doesn't matter where you grew up or who you are, it just matters how good you are, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 28:47 well, and do you think it's still that way today?   David Mayernik ** 28:51 There are a lot fewer open professional competitions. They're just a lot fewer of them. It was the and, you know, maybe they learned a lesson. I mean, maybe people like me shouldn't have been winning competitions. I mean, at some level, we were out of our league. I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say, from a design point of view. I mean, we were very capable of doing what the project involved, but we were not ready for the hardball of collaborating with a big firm and and the and the politics of what we were doing and the business side of it, we got kind of crushed, and, and, and eventually they never had the money to build the project, so the project just kind of evaporated. And the guy I used to work with in Philadelphia told me, after I won the competition, he said, you know, because he won a competition. He said, You know, the second project is the hardest one to get, you know, because you might get lucky one time and you win a competition, the question is, how do you build practice out of that?   Michael Hingson ** 29:52 Yeah, and it's a good point, yeah, yeah.   David Mayernik ** 29:55 I mean, developing some kind of continuity is hard. I mean, I. Have a longer, more discontinuous practice after that, but it's that's the hard part.   Michael Hingson ** 30:07 Well, you know, I mentioned challenges before, and we all, we all face challenges and so on. How do we overcome the challenges, our inherited challenges, or the perceived challenges that we have? How do we overcome those and work to move forward, to be our best? Because that's clearly kind of what you're talking about here.   David Mayernik ** 30:26 Yeah, well, the true I mean, so the challenges that we're born with, and I think there are also some challenges that, you know, we impose on ourselves, right? I mean, in this, in the best sense, I mean the ways that we challenge ourselves. And for me, I'm a bit of an idealist, and you know, the world doesn't look kindly on idealist. If you know, from a business, professional point of view, idealism is often, I'm not saying it's frowned upon, but it's hardly encouraged and rewarded and but I think that for me, I've learned over time that it's you really just beating your head against the wall is not the best. A little bit of navigating your way around problems rather than trying to run through them or knock them over is a smarter strategy. And so you have to be a little nimble. You have to be a little creative about how you find work and essentially, how you keep yourself afloat and and if you're if you're open to possibilities, and if you take some risks, you can, you can actually navigate yourself through a series of obstacles and actually have a rich, interesting life, but it may not follow the path that you thought you were starting out on at the beginning. And that's the, I think that's the skill that not everybody has.   Michael Hingson ** 31:43 The other part about that, though, is that all too often, we don't really give thought to what we're going to do, or we we maybe even get nudges about what we ought to do, but we discount them because we think, Oh, that's just not the way to do it. Rather than stepping back and really analyzing what we're seeing, what we're hearing. And I, for 1am, a firm believer in the fact that our inner self, our inner voice, will guide us if we give it the opportunity to do that.   David Mayernik ** 32:15 You know, I absolutely agree. I think a lot of people, you know, I was, I for, I have, for better or worse, I've always had a good sense of what I wanted to do with my life, even if architecture was a you know, conscious way to do something that was not exactly maybe what I dreamed of doing, it was a, you know, as a more rational choice. But, but I've, but I've basically followed my heart, more or less, and I've done the things that I always believed in it was true too. And when I meet people, especially when I have students who don't really know what they love, or, you know, really can't tell you what they really are passionate about, but my sense of it is, this is just my I might be completely wrong, but my sense of it is, they either can't admit it to themselves, or they can't admit it to somebody else that they that, either, in the first case, they're not prepared to listen to themselves and actually really deep, dig deep and think about what really matters to them, or if they do know what that is, they're embarrassed to admit it, or they're embarrassed to tell somebody else. I think most of us have some drive, or some internal, you know, impetus towards something and, and you're right. I mean, learning to listen to that is, is a, I mean, it's rewarding. I mean, essentially, you become yourself. You become more, or the best possible self you can be, I guess.   Michael Hingson ** 33:42 Yeah, I agree. And I guess that that kind of answers the question I was was thinking of, and that is, basically, as you're doing things in life, should you follow your dreams?   David Mayernik ** 33:53 You know, there's a lot, a lot of people are writing these days, if you read, if you're just, you know, on the, on the internet, reading the, you know, advice that you get on, you know, the new services, from the BBC to, you know, any other form of information that's out there, there's a lot of back and forth by between the follow your dreams camp and the don't follow your dreams camp. And the argument of the don't follow your dreams camp seems to be that it's going to be hard and you'll be frustrated, and you know, and that's true, but it doesn't mean you're going to fail, and I don't think anybody should expect life to be easy. So I think if you understand going in, and maybe that's part of my Eastern European heritage that you basically expect life to be hard, not, not that it has to be unpleasant, but you know it's going to be a struggle, but, but if you are true to yourself or follow your dreams, you're probably not going to wake up in the middle of your life with a crisis. You know, because I think a lot of times when you suppress your dreams, they. Stay suppressed forever, and the frustrations come out later, and it's better to just take them on board and try to again, navigate your way through life with those aspirations that you have, that you know are really they're built in like you were saying. They're kind of hardwired to be that person, and it's best to listen to that person.   Michael Hingson ** 35:20 There's nothing wrong with having real convictions, and I think it's important to to step back and make sure that you're really hearing what your convictions are and feeling what your convictions are. But that is what people should do, because otherwise, you're just not going to be happy.   David Mayernik ** 35:36 You're not and you're you're at one level, allowing yourself to manipulate yourself. I mean, essentially, you're, you know, kind of essentially deterring yourself from being who you are. You're probably also susceptible to other people doing that to you, that if you don't have enough sense of yourself, a lot of other people can manipulate you, push you around. And, you know, the thing about having a good sense of yourself is you also know how to stand up for yourself, or at least you know that you're a self that's worth standing up for. And that's you know. That's that, that thing that you know the kids learn in the school yard when you confront the bully, you know you have to, you know, the parents always tell you, you know, stand up to the bully. And at some level, life is going to bully you unless you really are prepared to stand up for something.   Michael Hingson ** 36:25 Yeah, and there's so many examples of that I know as a as a blind person, I've been involved in taking on some pretty major tasks in life. For example, it used to be that anyone with a so called Disability couldn't buy life insurance, and eventually, we took on the insurance industry and won to get the laws passed in every state that now mandate that you can't discriminate against people with disabilities in providing life insurance unless you really have evidence To prove that it's appropriate to do that, and since the laws were passed, there hasn't been any evidence. And the reason is, of course, there never has been evidence, and insurance companies kept claiming they had it, but then when they were challenged to produce it, they couldn't. But the reality is that you can take on major tasks and major challenges and win as long as you really understand that that is what your life is steering you to do,   David Mayernik ** 37:27 yeah, like you said, and also too, having a sense of your your self worth beyond whatever that disability is, that you know what you're capable of, apart from that, you know that's all about what you can't do, but all the things that you can do are the things that should allow you to do anything. And, yeah, I think we're, I think it's a lot of times people will try to define you by what you can't do, you   Michael Hingson ** 37:51 know? And the reality is that those are traditionally misconceptions and inaccurate anyway, as I point out to people, disability does not mean a lack of ability. Although a lot of people say, Well, of course it, it is because it starts with dis. And my response is, what do you then? How do you deal with the words disciple, discern and discrete? For example, you know the fact of the matter is, we all have a disability. Most of you are light dependent. You don't do well with out light in your life, and that's okay. We love you anyway, even though you you have to have light but. But the reality is, in a sense, that's as much a disability is not being light dependent or being light independent. The difference is that light on demand has caused so much focus that it's real easy to get, but it doesn't change the fact that your disability is covered up, but it's still there.   David Mayernik ** 38:47 No, it's true. I mean, I think actually, yeah, knowing. I mean, you're, we're talking about knowing who you are, and, you know, listening to your inner voice and even listening to your aspirations. But also, I mean being pretty honest about where your liabilities are, like what the things are that you struggle with and just recognizing them, and not not to dwell on them, but to just recognize how they may be getting in the way and how you can work around them. You know, one of the things I tell students is that it's really important to be self critical, but, but it's, it's not good to be self deprecating, you know. And I think being self critical if you're going to be a self taught person like I am, in a lot of ways, you you have to be aware of where you're not getting it right. Because I think the problem is sometimes you can satisfy yourself too easily. You're too happy with your own progress. You know, the advantage of having somebody outside teaching you is they're going to tell you when you're doing it wrong, and most people are kind of loath do that for themselves, but, but the other end of that is the people who are so self deprecating, constantly putting themselves down, that they never are able to move beyond it, because they're only aware of what they can't do. And you know, I think balancing self criticism with a sense of your self worth is, you know, one of the great balancing acts of life. You.   Michael Hingson ** 40:00 Well, that's why I've adopted the concept of I'm my own best teacher, because rather than being critical and approaching anything in a negative way, if I realize that I'm going to be my own best teacher, and people will tell me things, I can look at them, and I should look at them, analyze them, step back, internalize them or not, but use that information to grow, then that's what I really should do, and I would much prefer the positive approach of I'm my own best teacher over anything else.   David Mayernik ** 40:31 Yeah, well, I mean, the last kind of teachers, and I, you know, a lot of my students have thought of me as a critical teacher. One of the things I think my students have misunderstood about that is, it's not that I have a low opinion of them. It's actually that I have such a high opinion that I always think they're capable of doing better. Yeah, I think one of the problems in our educational system now is that it's so it's so ratifying and validating. There's so we're so low to criticize and so and the students are so fragile with criticism that they they don't take the criticism well, yeah, we don't give it and, and you without some degree of what you're not quite getting right, you really don't know what you're capable of, right? And, and I think you know. But being but again, being critical is not that's not where you start. I think you start from the aspiration and the hope and the, you know, the actually, the joy of doing something. And then, you know, you take a step back and maybe take a little you know, artists historically had various techniques for judging their own work. Titian used to take one of his paintings and turn it away, turn it facing the wall so that he couldn't see it, and he would come back to it a month later. And, you know, because when he first painted, he thought it was the greatest thing ever painted, he would come back to it a month later and think, you know, I could have done some of those parts better, and you would work on it and fix it. And so, you know, the self criticism comes from this capacity to distance yourself from yourself, look at yourself almost as as hard as it is from the outside, yeah, try to see yourself as other people see you. Because I think in your own mind, you can kind of become completely self referential. And you know, that's that. These are all life skills. You know, I had to say this to somebody recently, but, you know, I think the thing you should get out of your education is learning how to learn and like you're talking about, essentially, how do you approach something new or challenging or different? Is has to do with essentially, how do you how do you know? Do you know how to grow and learn on your own?   Michael Hingson ** 42:44 Yeah, exactly, well, being an architect and so on. How did you end up going off and becoming a professor and and teaching? Yeah, a   David Mayernik ** 42:52 lot of architects do it. I have to say. I mean, there's always a lot of the people who are the kind of heroes when I was a student, were practicing architects who also taught and and they had a kind of, let's say, intellectual approach to what they did. They were conceptual. It wasn't just the mundane aspects of getting a building built, but they had some sense of where they fit, with respect to the culture, with respect to history and issues outside of architecture, the extent to which they were tied into other aspects of culture. And so I always had the idea that, you know, to be a full, you know, a fully, you know, engaged architect. You should have an academic, intellectual side to your life. And teaching would be an opportunity to do that. The only thing is, I didn't feel like I knew enough until I was older, in my 40s, to feel like I actually knew enough about what I was doing to be able to teach somebody else. A lot of architects get into teaching early, I think, before they're actually fully formed to have their own identities. And I think it's been good for me that I waited a while until I had a sense of myself before I felt like I could teach somebody else. And so there was, there was that, I mean, the other side of it, and it's not to say that it was just a day job, but one of the things I decided from the point of your practice is a lot of architects have to do a lot of work that they're not proud of to keep the lights on and keep the business operating. And I have decided for myself, I only really want to do work that I'm proud of, and in order to do that, because clients that you can work for and be you know feel proud of, are rather rare, and so I balanced teaching and practice, because teaching allowed me to ostensibly, theoretically be involved with the life of the mind and only work for people and projects that interested me and that I thought could offer me the chance to do something good and interesting and important. And so one I had the sense that I had something to convey I learned. Enough that I felt like I could teach somebody else. But it was also, for me, an opportunity to have a kind of a balanced life in which practice was compensated. You know that a lot of practice, even interesting practice, has a banal, you know, mundane side. And I like being intellectually stimulated, so I wanted that. Not everybody wants   Michael Hingson ** 45:24 that. Yeah, so you think that the teaching brings you that, or it put you in a position where you needed to deal with that?   David Mayernik ** 45:32 You know, having just retired, I wish there had been more of that. I really had this romantic idea that academics, being involved in academics, would be an opportunity to live in a world of ideas. You know? I mean, because when I was a student, I have to say we, after we came back from Rome, I got at least half of my education for my classmates, because we were deeply engaged. We debated stuff. We, you know, we we challenged each other. We were competitive in a healthy way and and I remember academics my the best part of my academic formation is being immensely intellectually rich. In fact, I really missed it. For about the first five years I was out of college, I really missed the intellectual side of architecture, and I thought going back as a teacher, I would reconnect with that, and I realized not necessarily, there's a lot about academics that's just as mundane and bureaucratic as practice can be so if you really want to have a satisfying intellectual life, unfortunately, you can't look to any institution or other people for it. You got to find it on your own.   46:51 Paperwork, paperwork,   David Mayernik ** 46:55 committee meetings, just stuff. Yeah, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 47:00 yeah. Yeah, which never, which never. Well, I won't say they never help, but there's probably, there's probably some valuable stuff that you can get, even from writing and doing, doing paperwork, because it helps you learn to write. I suppose you can look at it that way.   David Mayernik ** 47:16 No, it's true. I mean, you're, you're definitely a glass half full guy. Michael, I appreciate that's good. No. I mean, I, obviously, I always try to make get the most out of whatever experience I have. But, I mean, in the sense that there wasn't as much intellectual discourse, yeah, you know, as my I would have liked, yeah, and I, you know, in the practice or in the more academic side of architecture. Several years ago, somebody said we were in a post critical phase like that. Ideas weren't really what was driving architecture. It was going to be driven by issues of sustainability, issues of social structure, you know, essentially how people live together, issues that have to do with things that weren't really about, let's call it design in the esthetic sense, and all that stuff is super important. And I'm super interested in, you know, the social impact of my architecture, the sustainable impact of it, but the the kind of intellectual society side of the design part of it, we're in a weird phase where it that's just not in my world, we just it's not talked about a lot. You know,   Michael Hingson ** 48:33 it's not what it what it used to be. Something tells me you may be retired, but you're not going to stop searching for intellectual and various kinds of stimulation to help keep your mind active.   David Mayernik ** 48:47 Oh, gosh, no, no. I mean, effectively. I mean, I just stopped one particular job. I describe it now as quitting with benefits. That's my idea of what I retired from. I retired from a particular position in a particular place, but, but I haven't stopped. I mean, I'm certainly going to keep working. I have a very interesting design project in Switzerland. I've been working on for almost 29 years, and it's got a number of years left in it. I paint, I write, I give lectures, I you know, and you obviously have a rich life. You know, not being at a job. Doesn't mean that the that your engagement with the world and with ideas goes away. I mean, unless you wanted to, my wife's my wife had three great uncles who were great jazz musicians. I mean, some quite well known jazz musicians. And one of them was asked, you know, was he ever going to retire? And he said, retire to what? Because, you know, he was a musician. I mean, you can't stop being a musician, you know, you know, if, some level, if you're really engaged with what you do, you You never stop, really,   Michael Hingson ** 49:51 if you enjoy it, why would you? No, I   David Mayernik ** 49:54 mean, the best thing is that your work is your fun. I mean, you know, talking about, we talked about it. I. You that You know you're kind of defined by your work, but if your work is really what you enjoy, I mean, actually it's fulfilling, rich, enriching, interesting, you don't want to stop doing that. I mean, essentially, you want to do it as long as you possibly can. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 50:13 and it's and it's really important to do that. And I think, in reality, when you retire from a job, you're not really retiring from a job. You're retiring, as you said, from one particular thing. But the job isn't a negative thing at all. It is what you like to do.   David Mayernik ** 50:31 Yeah. I mean, there's, yeah, there's the things that you do that. I mean, I guess the job is the, if you like, the thing that is the, you know, the institution or the entity that you know, pays your bills and that kind of stuff, but the career or the thing that you're invested in that had the way you define yourself is you never stop being that person, that person. And in some ways, you know, what I'm looking forward to is a richer opportunity to pursue my own avenue of inquiry, and, you know, do things on my own terms, without some of the obligations I had   Michael Hingson ** 51:03 as a teacher, and where's your wife and all that.   David Mayernik ** 51:06 So she's with me here in LUCA, and she's she's had a super interesting life, because she she she studied. We, when we were together in New York, she was getting a degree in art history, Medieval and Renaissance studies in art history at NYU, and then she decided she really wanted to be a chef, and she went to cooking school in New York and then worked in a variety of food businesses in New York, and then got into food writing and well, food styling for magazines, making food for photographs, and then eventually writing. And through a strange series of connections and experiences. She got an opportunity to cook at an Art Foundation in the south of France, and I was in New York, and I was freelancing. I was I'd quit a job I'd been at for five years, and I was freelancing around, doing some of my own stuff and working with other architects, and I had work I could take with me. And you know, it was there was there was, we didn't really have the internet so much, but we had FedEx. And I thought I could do drawings in the south of France. I could do them in Brooklyn. So, so I went to the south of France, and it just happens to be that my current client from Switzerland was there at that place at that time, scouting it out for some other purpose. And she said, I hear you're architect. I said, Yeah. And I said, Well, you know, she said, I like, you know, classical architecture, and I like, you know, traditional villages, and we have a campus, and we need a master plan architect. And I was doing a master plan back in Delaware at that time, and my wife's you know, career trajectory actually enabled me to meet a client who's basically given me an opportunity to build, you know, really interesting stuff, both in Switzerland and in England for the last, you know, again, almost 29 years. And so my wife's been a partner in this, and she's been, you know, because she's pursued her own parallel interest. But, but our interests overlap enough and we share enough that we our interests are kind of mutually reinforcing. It's, it's been like an ongoing conversation between us, which has been alive and rich and wonderful.   Michael Hingson ** 53:08 You know, with everything going on in architecture and in the world in general, we see more and more technology in various arenas and so on. How do you think that the whole concept of CAD has made a difference, or in any way affected architecture. And where do you think CAD systems really fit into all of that?   David Mayernik ** 53:33 Well, so I mean this, you know, CAD came along. I mean, it already was, even when I was early in my apprenticeship, yeah, I was in Chicago, and there was a big for som in Chicago, had one of the first, you know, big computers that was doing some drawing work for them. And one of my, a friend of mine, you know, went to spend some time and figure out what they were capable of. And, but, you know, never really came into my world until kind of the late night, mid, mid to late 90s and, and, and I kind of resisted it, because I, the reason I got into architecture is because I like to draw by hand, and CAD just seemed to be, you know, the last thing I'd want to do. But at the same time, you, some of you, can't avoid it. I mean, it has sort of taken over the profession that, essentially, you either have people doing it for you, or you have to do it yourself, and and so the interesting thing is, I guess that I, at some point with Switzerland, I had to, basically, I had people helping me and doing drawing for me, but I eventually taught myself. And I actually, I jumped over CAD and I went to a 3d software called ArchiCAD, which is a parametric design thing where you're essentially building a 3d model. Because I thought, Look, if I'm going to do drawing on the computer, I want the computer to do something more than just make lines, because I can make lines on my own. But so the computer now was able to help me build a 3d model understand buildings in space and construction. And so I've taught myself to be reasonably, you know, dangerous with ArchiCAD and but the. Same time, the creative side of it, I still, I still think, and a lot of people think, is still tied to the intuitive hand drawing aspect and and so a lot of schools that gave up on hand drawing have brought it back, at least in the early years of formation of architects only for the the conceptual side of architecture, the the part where you are doodling out your first ideas, because CAD drawing is essentially mechanical and methodical and sort of not really intuitive, whereas the intuitive marking of paper With a pencil is much more directly connected to the mind's capacity to kind of speculate and imagine and daydream a little bit, or wander a little bit your mind wanders, and it actually is time when some things can kind of emerge on the page that you didn't even intend. And so, you know, the other thing about the computer is now on my iPad, I can actually do hand drawing on my iPad, and that's allowed me to travel with it, show it to clients. And so I still obviously do a lot of drawing on paper. I paint by hand, obviously with real paints and real materials. But I also have found also I can do free hand drawing on my iPad. I think the real challenge now is artificial intelligence, which is not really about drawing, it's about somebody else or the machine doing the creative side of it. And that's the big existential crisis that I think the profession is facing right now.   Michael Hingson ** 56:36 Yeah, I think I agree with that. I've always understood that you could do free hand drawing with with CAD systems. And I know that when I couldn't find a job in the mid 1980s I formed a company, and we sold PC based CAD systems to architects and engineers. And you know, a number of them said, well, but when we do designs, we charge by the time that we put into drawing, and we can't do that with a CAD system, because it'll do it in a fraction of the time. And my response always was, you're looking at it all wrong. You don't change how much you charge a customer, but now you're not charging for your time, you're charging for your expertise, and you do the same thing. The architects who got that were pretty successful using CAD systems, and felt that it wasn't really stifling their creativity to use a CAD system to enhance and speed up what they did, because it also allowed them to find more jobs more quickly.   David Mayernik ** 57:35 Yeah, one of the things it did was actually allow smaller firms to compete with bigger firms, because you just didn't need as many bodies to produce a set of drawings to get a project built or to make a presentation. So I mean, it has at one level, and I think it still is a kind of a leveler of, in a way, the scale side of architecture, that a lot of small creative firms can actually compete for big projects and do them successfully. There's also, it's also facilitated collaboration, because of the ability to exchange files and have people in different offices, even around the world, working on the same drawing. So, you know, I'm working in Switzerland. You know, one of the reasons to be on CAD is that I'm, you know, sharing drawings with local architects there engineers, and that you know that that collaborative sharing process is definitely facilitated by the computer.   Michael Hingson ** 58:27 Yeah, information exchange is always valuable, especially if you have a number of people who are committed to the same thing. It really helps. Collaboration is always a good thing,   David Mayernik ** 58:39 yeah? I mean, I think a lot of, I mean, there's always the challenge between the ego side of architecture, you know, creative genius, genius, the Howard Roark Fountainhead, you know, romantic idea. And the reality is that it takes a lot of people to get a building built, and one person really can't do it by themselves. And So collaboration is kind of built into it at the same time, you know, for any kind of coherence, or some any kind of, let's say, anything, that brings a kind of an artistic integrity to a work of architecture, mostly, that's got to come from one person, or at least people with enough shared vision that that there's a kind of coherence to it, you know. And so there still is space for the individual creative person. It's just that it's inevitably a collaborative process to get, you know, it's the it's the 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration. Side architecture is very much that there's a lot of heavy lifting that goes into getting a set of drawings done to get

Atop the 7 o'clock hour, we talk to National Federation of Republican Women President Julie Harris about the Texas Democrat legislators who have fled that state to try to avoid redistricting votes there.

On this episode we get to meet Andra Wochesen, a teacher and then a coach. Andra received her college degree in kinesiology education. What is kinesiology, you may ask? Physical education. Andra will tell us more and how she progressed from years of teaching to coaching to help “entrepreneurs and leaders to be in their power and conviction so they land on bigger stages, command higher fees and create meaningful impact”. Andra focuses today on helping people understand themselves and their lives. She uses tools such as examining Akashic Records. We get to learn in detail what Andra does and how she accomplishes helping people gain insights into their existence and how to move forward.   I hope you find Andra's time with us informative and instructive.     About the Guest:   Andra supports entrepreneurs and leaders to be in their power and conviction, so they land on bigger stages, command higher fees and create meaningful impact. Purpose, Power & Presence.   Along with a 25 -year background in kinesiology and education, Andra is multi-certified as a coach, with enhanced training in energetic and embodiment techniques, including Law of Attraction, Reiki, Akashic Records, Tapping and Quantum Flow.   This unique combination of skills coupled with her intuitive and innate understanding of the body and energy and ability to uncover dormant soul gifts, allows her to support her clients in a deeply integrated way, creating lasting change and expedited results.   She has recently received a breast cancer diagnosis and is truly being asked to walk her talk as she faces the unexpected and a lot of unknowns. Part of her mission and purpose is to share her journey to support others, and though this is health related, how to apply this to any path people are currently walking. Ways to connect with Andra:   Website: https://www.andrawochesen.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andra-wochesen-purposepowerpresence/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andra_energycoach/# You-Tube: https://www.youtube.com/@andrawochesen To your listeners, here is a link for my Personal Power Activation Series https://andrawochesen.simplero.com/personalpoweractivation     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:28 We really appreciate you taking the time to listen to us or watch us and our guest Andra Wochesen who is going to talk to us about a variety of things, and one of the things that I will tell you is she has a degree in kinesiology, and she'll have to define that. I'm not going to, although I now know what it means and I know how to pronounce it, mostly because she told me. But I really am excited to have her be on the podcast today, because one of the things that I really enjoyed about and it's not necessarily the most enjoyable subject, but because of the things that she has done now in her life, she is facing personal tests to prove that what she teaches and coaches is real, because she's having to go through some of it, and I know that she will talk about that a little bit later. We'll get to it. But Andra, I want to thank you for being on a stoppable mindset.   Andra Wochesen ** 02:21 Thank you so much, Michael. I'm so happy to be here, and so love what you're about and how you show up in the world, and I'm so happy to be connected with like minded people making an impact, and happy to be connected to your audience. And I hope something I share today will be of service.   Michael Hingson ** 02:38 Well, I hope so, and I think that, we usually find that it is and we're we're really glad you're here to share it, which is as good as it gets. So I'd like to start by maybe learning about the early Andra growing up and so on. Why don't you tell us about some of that and kind of how that led you to maybe some of the things that you're doing now? Sure, sure.   Andra Wochesen ** 02:58 Yeah. I mean, yes, I'm the end places that I'm a coach, and I work with embodiment and energy. And I think the first years of my life were me being a very active child, being very adventurous, loving to have new experiences, very much being athletic. I was a competitive gymnast in my younger years. And yeah, I think I really enjoyed being in my body and using my body as a vehicle to sort of express myself. So, definitely active, definitely adventurous, definitely independent. And yeah, really enjoyed the experience of, yeah, going new places, seeing new people, and doing some things that challenge my body in big ways.   Michael Hingson ** 03:46 So what made you deviate from going into competitive gymnastics?   Andra Wochesen ** 03:51 Oh, I wasn't good enough. Oh, okay, yeah, I was good enough for where I was, but yeah, it was enough. I think, yeah, I think I stopped that around 11 or 12. Actually, it's quite a it's quite a vigorous sport. And yeah, I was quite aware of my capacity and my desire, actually, to, it takes a lot to get to that, to the caliber of like, Olympic athlete or something, right? So that wasn't, I wasn't good enough, and I didn't have, didn't desire to go down that path   Michael Hingson ** 04:21 well. And that's, of course, a significant part of it is there's a lot that you have to desire to do to really go down that path in whatever sport or whatever you want to compete in and be about. So I understand,   Andra Wochesen ** 04:35 yeah, yeah, yeah, that commitment and choice and yeah, I think, as you speak, about unstoppable, right? There is an element that requires so much conviction on our end to be able to really commit and follow through with whatever it is that we are wanting to follow through and commit with.   Michael Hingson ** 04:55 Well, so you say, around 11 or 12, you decided. That you weren't going to continue down that. What did you   Andra Wochesen ** 05:04 do? Oh, I mean, I continued to still be athletic and still played. I still did gymnastics. I was, you know, still quite good at it, so I did that through high school, but played a variety of other team sports. And I think, yeah, maybe define myself less on the athleticism, but still included it, and sort of brought in more of some other interests. I think that I had maybe more around, yeah, just travel friends. I mean, that's what you do in high school and university.   Michael Hingson ** 05:34 So where did you go to university? I   Andra Wochesen ** 05:39 went. I'm in Canada. So I went to McMaster, yeah, which is in Hamilton. It's a great school. Now, where is that? That's in Hamilton, which is I live in Toronto now. So Hamilton is about 45 minutes away. Hamilton is between, let's say, Toronto, Niagara Falls, the main cities, you would know. So, yeah, I went to McMaster for four years for my phys ed kinese degree, and then I went to Queen's University for my teaching degree. So that's sort of my educational background.   Michael Hingson ** 06:07 So you you got a teaching degree, did you want to go off and be a teacher? Or what did you want to do exactly? Or did you know   Andra Wochesen ** 06:15 I was a teacher? I did very strategically choose in my growing up, I think being athletic, I also coached teams. I also was a camp counselor, so I was very much involved in guiding other people. So I think especially in athletic pursuits, and even I mentioned this, even I did volunteer at the Canadian National Institute for the Blind and was a runner for someone there, helped them run track. So I think going into teaching, and especially phys ed teaching, made perfect sense. So I did. I did do that for 10 years, and then moved on to some other things.   Michael Hingson ** 06:56 So how long ago was it that you were a runner at CNIB, that   Andra Wochesen ** 07:01 was a long time ago. That was like, 30 years ago. Yeah, yes, that was like, sort of in my, I don't know, maybe early 20s, something like that. Okay, tell,   Michael Hingson ** 07:11 tell us a little bit more about how that. I'm just curious how that process worked. So you, you worked at the you volunteered at the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, and you and so people wanted to run. And how did, how did you make that work?   Andra Wochesen ** 07:26 So I was a guide runner. So I think I did a very, very I work with different people. There various people. And I think one, one of the young men really wanted to run track, and they had a big event at, I believe, was Variety Village, I believe. And so it was he wanted to do, I think it was 400 meters again, excuse me, it's been a long time. So it was a run. And so, yeah, to be able, I was a guide runner, so I ran, held his hands, but he obviously did the work and ran. But I was there as a as a runner to support that.   Michael Hingson ** 08:00 But you had to be able to run fast enough to keep up with whatever speed he was in produce, yeah, for   Andra Wochesen ** 08:05 sure, absolutely, yeah, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 08:09 yeah. I know people in the United States who are blind runners and do work with with people to guide. And of course, that's the whole point. But obviously, the the guides have to be in good enough physical shape also to make sure that they're able to let the person run at their own pace and hopefully set world records. I don't know who has but you know, nevertheless,   Andra Wochesen ** 08:35 yes, to let them have their full self expression right of what they were wanting to do, and your eye was just there on the side to make sure that he was able to run as fast as and get where he wanted to go and achieve the results he wanted to achieve.   Michael Hingson ** 08:52 Could when you were when you were acting as a guide. How did that work? That is to say, I'm assuming that the person couldn't necessarily run totally on their own. How did, how did you keep people running straight or where they needed to go again?   Andra Wochesen ** 09:09 It's a long time. I believe it was just hands right, and my hands in front, so that, or maybe at the side right, just so that there was a hand. There was a tactile component. It wasn't voice. It was definitely cut, so it was just more like guiding, to make sure that he was able to stay no well, he knew when to start, but to stay within the lines to be able to follow the track, and then obviously, to be able to cross the finish line.   Michael Hingson ** 09:35 Yeah, because they, they didn't have ropes or anything between lanes that he could follow. So he needed a person, or she, depending on who you guided, they needed your assistance. Because the bottom line is that the the tracks don't have ropes or anything like that to divide the various lanes. Yeah,   Andra Wochesen ** 09:54 yes, yeah. So it was, there may be different things. Now, you know, I'm not sure, but I'm   Michael Hingson ** 09:59 aware that there are. But I'm not a runner, so   Andra Wochesen ** 10:01 yeah, yeah. So it's a very Yeah. It's a very Yeah. I've been involved in that sort of stuff, whether it's been volunteer or paid in my whole life, basically helping other people to sort of reach their goals and to fully self Express. And so I think that's, you know, definitely been a piece of what's led me to the work that I do today. Mm, hmm.   Michael Hingson ** 10:27 So, so you taught, where did you teach? For 10 years,   Andra Wochesen ** 10:32 I taught mainly. I taught in middle schools. I was, yeah, thanks. So I taught grade seven and eight. Mostly grade seven, little bit of grade six. I last year I taught grade four. I taught phys ed. The whole time I was like the the head of phys ed, so I coached all the teams and organized the track meets and did things like that. But I also had an under second teachable of French. So I actually taught French as well as math and English. You know, those weren't my favorite, but I Oh, yeah, I did love teaching, yeah, phys ed and health health, actually, I loved because that's very much like, it's kind of like coaching, right? It's actually helping, yeah, I love those, those classes as well, with that age group.   Michael Hingson ** 11:16 Now, my wife, my late wife, was a teacher for 10 years, and she always said that the students she liked best were third graders, because they were old enough that they could make some decisions, but they were also young enough that they were able to be influenced, and they hadn't got so set in their ways that they were problem students like even from fourth grade on, did you have a favorite grade?   Andra Wochesen ** 11:43 Yeah, not grade seven. That's why I'm not doing it.   Michael Hingson ** 11:46 So I would agree with you,   Andra Wochesen ** 11:49 yeah, so that was the bulk of my teaching career was grade seven. So they're not easy, and they don't necessarily want to be there. So yeah, it didn't feel like the most aligned path. I was actually certified to teach high school, but it was very hard to get into high school teaching here. And I think if I would have, I probably would still be doing that, because it's a little bit more pure in the phys ed component. So yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:15 well, the you know, I wanted to be a teacher, and ended up going in different directions anyway, but still, I think that I do get to teach. And I think even this podcast offers teaching moments which is, which is pretty good, but I appreciate what you and Karen, my wife, say about all of that, because it is a it is a big challenge. Do you think that one of her comments and was that parents aren't really becoming as involved as they should be, and so they they kind of treat teachers like babysitters, and then the kids go home and they do whatever they're going to do, but they don't really as actively provide a lot of the guidance that they should. Did you find that up in Canada as well?   Andra Wochesen ** 13:05 I would say again, it's been 20 years now. Say that for the most part, it just really depends. Like, a lot of parents were very engaged and very and then I think, yeah, there were kids that were challenging at school because they didn't have a lot of structure or support at home. So it's a, it's a, it's a, really a. It's a privilege to be a teacher, to be taking, not necessarily taking care of people's children, but you are, on some level, being an influence for them. And so yeah, I would say for the most part, there was a lot of parental support, but I know that's not always the case, and I do think, yeah, there's some kids who had not very much parental support and required more at school.   Michael Hingson ** 13:52 Karen had challenges with a lot of kids until she realized something, and I don't even remember what caused it to happen, but she taught at a school where, as she put it, there were a lot of latch key kids. That is, they they were really responsible for themselves. The parents worked and so on. They went. The kids went home at the end of the day, and they were on their own. And when she realized that kids weren't going home necessarily to total parental supervision and so on, and that they in fact, the children were learning how to be responsible to a large degree on their own. That kind of changed her view and the way she interacted with kids, and apparently became a whole lot more effective and a whole lot more of a teacher who could exert a positive influence on the kids.   Andra Wochesen ** 14:46 That's great. I mean, I think ultimately, we're all sovereign beings, even if we're children. And I think, yeah, whatever situations we are, sort of handed Yeah, I think there's a lot of. Um growth in that, and I think being able to support that is what we're what we're here to do, whether we're a formal teacher or a guide or a podcast host, right? We're all here to sort of meet people where they're at and also in their greatness and also in their challenges, and then also in their capacity.   Michael Hingson ** 15:20 People are where they are, and we don't really have the right, much less all of the gifts to necessarily force people to change how they behave and so on. And I think the best that we can do is to try to set positive examples and and either people will see that, or kids will see that, or they won't.   Andra Wochesen ** 15:43 Yeah, one of the biggest things, and you know, it's part of the work I do now around seeing people's gifts. That's part of the akashics work that I do. But I know, even as a teacher, one of the greatest strengths that supported me was that I chose to focus on the strengths in the children and really reflect that to them, and have them see that within themselves. And everybody has different approaches. Some people would be focused on, like, you need to improve here. This needs to happen. And of course, I think we all have areas of growth and improvement, but I believe, and I've seen, I've literally been in this field for 30 years, whether it's teaching, you know, young people or adults, we I have found that most people thrive when they're recognized in their greatness and their gifts, not in their areas of weakness. How do you do that? How do I do that? So, I mean, I think I did it innately. When I was a teacher, I just intuited that that was the it's easy. We can all see people's gifts, and we can all choose to focus on those gifts. We can do that in our personal relationships. We can choose. We always get choice in terms of what we focus on. So I believe that there's we all have that innate ability, whether we exercise it or not, is is up to us. And then I have, you know, certified in some different modalities that help me help people uncover what some of those gifts are. I originally did something called the Passion Test, where I help people really distill what their true passions were. And so that's a really, really helpful tool. And then I also do Akashic Records, which is like a an energetic database, which we can talk about further if you want or not. Doesn't matter, but it's, it's a I'm able to access people's records for them and really discern what their top level gifts are, and then share that with them. And so when I'm sharing it with them, it's not usually like they have no idea they most people know what their innate gifts are, but when it's reflected in a certain way from a soul level perspective, it's a very validating experience, and it helps to reignite those gifts in people, so that they are then very self aware of what those gifts are and how they can use them to both impact their themselves and their career and their family, right? There's there's lots of ways to apply our gifts if we really tune in to what they are,   Michael Hingson ** 18:18 whether it's children or adults, there's always a lot to be said for the whole concept of validation. If you are really validating someone, especially when you're dealing with their gifts and you're validating them, you're praising them, you're encouraging them for what they are and what they do, that has to count for a lot. I would think.   Andra Wochesen ** 18:38 I think so. I think you're speaking to a deeper level than the ego or the mind. You're actually speaking to the depth of some who someone is, and they feel that. And there's a, there's a, I'm going to say, like an embodied response to that. There's a deep feeling.   Michael Hingson ** 18:56 Well, so you taught for 10 years, and then what, what made you decide to deviate from just being a professional teacher in the classroom, as it were, or or going around the field, running,   Andra Wochesen ** 19:08 yes, chair, yeah, I felt like actually had a bit of a rough I'm not, I don't need to get into that. But it was, I had a tough year about year seven or eight, and it just kind of flipped the dial for me in terms of, I'm not sure this is what I want to do with the rest of my life. So I did stick it out for a couple more years. It's a lot of education and a lot of experience that I was working with, and so I did try some different things, taught different grades, but ultimately I realized that it wasn't, it was a little soul sucking for me, and in some ways, and I knew that there was more or a better way for me to actually use the gifts that I have. And so I just, I chose to to leave, which is not that common. I know it's a little different. Different in the US in terms of teaching and salaries and things like that. In Canada, I would say it's a very, it's a very good profession to be in. It's a very, it's a good salary. It's so it wasn't easy to leave it, but my higher knowing knew that it was the right thing for me to do.   Michael Hingson ** 20:20 So what did you then go do?   Andra Wochesen ** 20:23 So then I went, I became a Pilates instructor, and so that is movement education. And so I got to use my phys ed background and my kinesiology background to work with bodies. And I also trained the new teachers. Because, yeah, I had an expertise in teaching, and so I was a trainer of teachers. So yeah, I was involved in certifying new teachers. So yeah, did that, and then I worked one on one with clients, which was a really nice change for me, coming from a classroom of 30 people, being able to work with people in a one on one capacity and just have that so that felt very Yeah, it felt very aligned for me to be able to have a one on one connection and to be able to serve people really deeply, and yeah, I didn't have to mark tests and all that kind of stuff, right?   Michael Hingson ** 21:19 There's something to be said for that, yes, for sure, and you didn't have to make out report cards at the end of the year. Yes, yes, yeah. There's a   Andra Wochesen ** 21:27 lot of work that goes in there. You know, people talk a lot about summers off, but there's a lot of stuff that happens that is quite, quite labor intensive in teaching.   Michael Hingson ** 21:37 My niece is a kindergarten teacher. Actually, this year she's teaching pre kindergarten, but she would definitely agree with you, and talks about all the things that they have to do during the summer and all the preparation and and more important nowadays, at least down here, the amount of money that she has to spend out of her own salary just to buy supplies that the school district, for whatever reason, doesn't have funding to provide, and the teachers spend a fair amount of money keeping their students engaged with the things that they have to buy, that they know that the students need, but that the district doesn't provide.   Andra Wochesen ** 22:17 Yeah, I mean, I think that just, I can't speak obviously, to your country and how you do things, or what, what the what's involved. But I think it speaks to the desire that I'm going to say, all people have to support others. But I think teachers specifically, not even specifically, but teachers do have a big passion for helping people. And so I think that just speaks to the level that they're willing to go to in order to really support the next generation. So I think there is such a there's such a gift in and I hope that more and more people will appreciate teachers, because I think it's they are very vital, I think in shaping lots of things so well.   Michael Hingson ** 23:04 I think to at least a degree, most people like to teach that is to say they, if somebody asks them a question, Will will take the time oftentimes, to answer. They'll explain why they do what they do, or they'll explain whatever the question is about. I know, when I was in professional sales and managing a sales force, one of the things that I told every person that I hired was, for the next year, at least, you're a student, don't hesitate to ask questions, because the people who are your customers and your clients, if you're asking good, intelligent questions of them, they will want to answer you and engage you, and that can only help you. And what it what you do further down the line with them as well.   Andra Wochesen ** 23:52 Yeah, I think, I believe that we're all here to light the path for those behind us in whatever way we choose to do that.   Michael Hingson ** 24:01 Yeah. Yeah. And it is a, it is an art to do it well. And not everybody is a great teacher, but I think a lot of people do like to import, impart knowledge, at least to some degree, which is great, sure. Yeah. So you are Pilates instructor for a while, and then what did you do? Well?   Andra Wochesen ** 24:19 Then I Yeah, again, my soul always wants to expand, and I think that I felt like it was good, but it wasn't the full use of my gifts. And so that's when I sort of went down the coaching path. I realized I liked the one on one connection. I realized I'm very intuitive in general, but very intuitive with the body. So when I was working with my Pilates clients, I was able to almost tune into sort of, I'm going to say, even emotional blocks. Or I could tune into why their bodies weren't functioning the way they wanted to function. And so it just naturally evolved into desiring to bring a coaching element into the work that I did. And so for a number of years, I did both. Growth, and then after about 15 years of being at the teaching Pilates, I decided to just transition full time to coaching. So that's what I've been doing for the last, I don't know, five or six years full time   Michael Hingson ** 25:13 well, so tell us more about that. What you do, and I know you've talked and referred to a few times the Akashic records and so on. So don't hesitate to talk about some of that as well.   Andra Wochesen ** 25:26 Yeah, I think really what I do is help people connect to their innate power and their innate presence, so that they and their deepest gifts. So those are probably the deepest things. Purpose, power, presence is sort of how I label it, and within that, it's their sole gifts, what they're here to do, what their purpose is, what they want to really contribute on the planet. That's really who I'm helping so often it's entrepreneurs, sometimes it's leaders, sometimes it's high profile people in their industry, and so really I'm helping them connect to the depth of who they are really so that they can express that in the work that they do. So for some people, yeah, it's a it's about creating a bigger presence, a bigger platform, creating more impact, getting in front of more audiences, being able to command higher fees. All of this comes from a deep connection to your own knowing of who you are and what you how you're designed to serve. And so I really that's the it's the crux of what I do is you can hopefully see the thread throughout my whole life is really around helping people connect to who they really are at their core, how, what their innate gifts are, how they want to share those gifts, and how they can use those gifts to not only create a better, more aligned or whatever, what's what I want to say, prosperous life Experience for themselves through I love working with people who want to do what they love, right? That's really people who are trailblazers, people who want to create a new path, people who want to create meaning, want to create impact. And that's it's a I love it, and it's not an easy path. And so I really help people break through anything, holding them back from really going for it, because so many people that I work with, we are blazing new paths. Right? You do have to sell yourself. You do have to make your own opportunities. You do have to create your own platform. You have to do that in your podcast, right? There's everybody is we are here to do, I think this is what we are all here to do, is to really share our gifts in the biggest way possible. And yeah, sometimes people need help to be able to show that fully and to be able to shine as brightly as they're designed to to shine so that they can, yeah, receive Yeah, bigger opportunities, bigger platforms, more ability to continue on the path that they're on.   Michael Hingson ** 28:03 Do you find that there are a number of people who don't really know where they want to go or what they want to do? They're they're kind of being a little bit more aimless than they really need to be.   Andra Wochesen ** 28:17 It's interesting. I'm sure there are. When I first started, I was more of a life purpose coach, so I did, did sort of interact with people who are kind of lost and maybe a bit directionless. And so I think absolutely there, I don't even like that word that sounds very judgmental, right, just unsure of what they want to do. And so I think absolutely there are lots of people, and what I believe, and what I see now is that people wouldn't, who come to me wouldn't say that they're lost, but they something's not quite working, or they are ready for a next iteration. I believe we're always expanding and evolving, and so is our purpose and our direction, right? And so and sometimes we're going down a path and it works out really well, and we expand it. And sometimes we're going down a path and it doesn't work out so well, or we get a roadblock, as you know, I have one right now that kind of comes into our experience, and it causes us to course correct. So I feel like there's a lot of course correction next iteration. And to me, I use the words always elevation and expansion, because I think we are designed to continually evolve and expand. And so I think it's yeah, there's, there's all levels of people on the spectrum in terms of, like, knowing what I'm going to do with my life, or how I want to share in the world   Michael Hingson ** 29:30 well. And there's nothing wrong with the whole concept of life is all about expanding and exploring.   Andra Wochesen ** 29:39 Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. So   Michael Hingson ** 29:42 there's, there's nothing wrong with that, and also developing an ongoing strong desire to learn. The people that I find the most challenging to deal with are the ones who decide they know it all and they don't have any. Thing to learn, because they probably have the most to learn.   Andra Wochesen ** 30:03 Of course, of course, yeah, there's such a gift in the openness to Yeah. I'm using the word evolve, but learn, expand, grow, all of it's the same, right? It's like, there's, there's, yeah. It's, for me, it's one of my biggest values. And I think, I think there are a lot of people who prioritize growth, and then there are other people who don't. So it's choice, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 30:31 oh, I hear you. I understand what you're saying. Tell me more about the whole concept of the Akashic records. Oh,   Andra Wochesen ** 30:37 sure, sure, yeah, of course. Yeah. So I told you we'd bring it up. Yeah. So the Akashic records are an energetic database of our soul level information, and so it's like we all have akashics, and it's, it's our soul level information we can all access, and you may even access this information yourself in a meditation, or you receive some guidance on something, but you may be actually in your Akashic records. And so our cash checks sort of have our lifetimes of like lessons of opportunities for growth. Our gifts are it's like it's literally a soul level database of information. And so you can access, we can each access our own, but I am certified to go into people's akashics with their permission, on their behalf, and sort of retrieve relevant information to support them on their life's journey. So that's really, yeah. How do you do that? Well, it's a, yeah, it's quite it's a step by step. I mean, it's a certification. So I'm really tuning in. So there's a whole series of I'm going to say, questions that I ask, and first I get someone's birth date, full name, full name, full current name, full name at birth, date of birth, place of birth, so that's really key, so that I am accessing the right soul. And then there are a series of questions that I ask to determine whether the soul wants me to access this information. And then, yeah, most of the time, I'm kind of going in with very specific questions around soul gifts. But sometimes people come to me with very specific questions, but usually it's some version of like, what's keeping me stuck or I want to get here, or how can I use my gifts in a better way? Or is this a i can even do Akashic records for businesses? So Right? Which is the most aligned business opportunity, which is the most best way to market? What I do? Right? We we have different gifts ourselves. So again, just for me, I am not designed to market, but I'm very good for people to experience me. So I I'm good when I'm on a video, or if I lead a workshop, or if I have a conversation with someone, so when people have an experience, or if they read a Client Testimonial, so that's for me, the way my soul is designed to market. Your soul might not be designed that way at all, right? And so it's really good to have we can get all of this information that actually helps us be more aligned, more successful, more prosperous, right? We can actually be like we have a blueprint. We actually have a soul blueprint that will help us do the best that we possibly can in this lifetime. Mm,   Michael Hingson ** 33:31 hmm. How did you learn to do that?   Andra Wochesen ** 33:35 I mean, it was a certification process. So it was a called Soul realignment. That's where I learned, and it was a numerous, numerous courses, numerous practice clients, like any, like, all of my coaching certification, right? There's, um, yeah, there's a lot of people call them, and it's all fine. Everybody can do a lot of people will call themselves a coach, but, and people can be good coaches, but there's actually coach training that people go through. And there's hundreds and hundreds of practice client hours where you actually are learning sort of in the field, just as I did as a teacher. So yeah, it's just another one of the I'm going to say pieces that I bring to my coaching. So I just sort of integrate this all into my sessions with clients.   Michael Hingson ** 34:21 Got it. So there are places where you actually take these courses, or how does that work? I   Andra Wochesen ** 34:27 have done all of my training online, okay, all of it online from all over the world, actually. Yeah, that's the beauty of the internet, right? It's, it's yeah. I've done, yeah, I've done all of my practice and some stuff in person, for sure, I've done some stuff in person, but I've done a lot of, even all of my coaching. Now, I do a few in person retreats, but most of it is virtual. Most of it is zoom coaching. And I didn't know if I would like it, but I do. It's you can actually form quite a nice connection with people via the internet, right?   Michael Hingson ** 34:59 Do you. You're able to to establish as good a connection, doing it through the internet as you would, and as you do, if you're actually conducting an in person event,   Andra Wochesen ** 35:11 you know, yes, I'd say in some ways more so, and then in some ways less so. So I think there are, there are in person, there's, there's something really beautiful in being in someone else's energy, me being in theirs, and they're being in mine, and very also hands. My hands are very, very hands on. So that can be very helpful to have that presence. But I also find online, there can be a spaciousness that actually allows people almost to open up more, because they actually have their own space. So I have, yeah, I've been doing both for years, and I enjoy both. I'm going to say that, and I don't not just about me enjoying it. The benefits for my clients are both in person and virtual, or I would say equal   Michael Hingson ** 36:04 when the pandemic began and we started doing so many things virtually, for me, personally, I never feared it, because we even in an in person environment. I'm not, I don't how do I say this in a positive way? I look at the person, I see the person, but the way I see the person is not physically, necessarily, with the eyes, in in any different way, virtually than I would if I'm doing this in person, and I find that I'm able to interact with people well through zoom. I think Zoom is the more most accessible of the various conferencing technologies is out there, but I think that if you work at it, you can establish a good relationship through zoom, and you can do the kinds of work that you need to do. Unfortunately, too many people talk about it in such a way that they fear it, or they just become tired of doing things in a way that's different than what they're used to, which is totally in person, and that's detracting them from maybe having as positive an experience as they could   Andra Wochesen ** 37:21 Yeah, I agree that's well said, and I think, I think it's always about presence. And so when, yeah, when we're connecting on the internet, it's not, it's a machine or it's, it's whatever it is, right? But it's you showing up fully, making eye contact with people, not being distracted, being fully present, which is what actually allows people to feel seen and feel heard, and I think that it also allows you to be accessing people and opportunities all over the world, right? And so I will even say, when I first started doing this, there was a lot of people, especially when I started doing working more with entrepreneurs, they're like, I'm busy. I don't really have time to, like, drive across the city and come to your office and meet with you. You know, can we do this? And so it actually is very time efficient, right? You don't have to travel you. You are able to fit lots of things into your day, right? So I think there's, there's real benefits to it. And I think again, it's ultimately how present people are a computer or in person.   Michael Hingson ** 38:37 It's, it's all about, in part, accepting a different way of doing things, perhaps than you're used to, and accepting that it may not be any less equal to do it in a different way than the way you would normally do something. That is to say, is it really worse? Is it really different to do it virtually? Or can it really be just as much an equivalent kind of thing? And I think that that is mostly a matter of what we're what we choose to accept. Now, for me, there are challenges with things like doing virtual presentations with Zoom, if people don't communicate in a way that I can fully understand, or if they're sharing screens and don't describe what's on the screen. But the reality is that's just as true if I'm sitting in an in person environment and people are displaying slides and doing other things where they don't describe it. So it comes down to the same thing you can accomplish if you do it right.   Andra Wochesen ** 39:47 Yeah, and I think it comes down like what we said before, what where your focus is? Are you focusing on the gifts of something or the negative areas? Just like we were talking about kids gifts. In school, right? So it's like, if you can see what are the benefits to this virtual experience, if your focus is there, every you know what we focus on expands and where we direct our our focus is what informs how we feel. And so I think if we are choosing to look for the benefits of whatever we are, whatever situation we're in, you'll find them right. And the more you focus on them, the more they'll expand right   Michael Hingson ** 40:28 well. So you referred a couple of times, and I did at the very beginning a little bit to, I think, as you put it, you've had some things that have challenged your path and that you've had to work through, especially as late. Want to talk about some of that.   Andra Wochesen ** 40:44 Yeah. I mean, I yeah, I had to wait until I was ready to share this piece. But I feel like part of my mission and purpose is to support, is to share my journey to support other people. And so I think there's my journey as an entrepreneur that supports people, and this is now a journey with breast cancer, and so it's a health journey that I didn't expect to be sharing with people, and I have had to, obviously decide when and how I want to share it. So, yeah, I was diagnosed in early February and so, and I have yet to have treatment. So I think the reason I thought it was important to even share this is for people even to be able to relate to anything that they receive. So I'm calling it like how to navigate a difficult diagnosis with grace. So I'm not even at the treatment stage. I'm in the unknown, and I've been in the unknown for three months now, and I have been in the known that I have cancer, so I've actually had to hold the fact that I have cancer in my body, but not have any treatment yet for three months. So there's there's something in that being able to hold the unknown and the unexpected and be able to walk my talk, right, which is to maintain my center and my groundedness within myself and not get pulled into a freak out place of like, why aren't they acting faster? Why is this taking so long? And this, is this going to be spreading because they're not doing anything? So I think there's a there's the piece around that that I think I wanted to offer and share, I think, and I think, um, yeah, it's it. What I really realized for myself is, um, I was like, Oh, I'm going to be the person who really navigates this was with grace, and I'm going to be inspirational in this. And then I really realized, and then there were days where I was like, Oh, I'm the opposite of inspirational right now. I am like, grumpy, I'm crying, I'm mad, and I'm like, and then I kind of realized that actually that is inspirational, and that is handling a difficult diagnosis. And so one of the things I do teach people is really to feel what is there and to actually tune into your body. And so I think this journey has actually, and it's just beginning, right? It's not, I'm not even meeting with a surgeon tomorrow for hopefully next steps, but I've had four biopsies, I've had a lot of things. I've had a lot of invasive procedures to determine what next steps are. And so, yeah, and so it's just finding this balance, I think, between continuing. So today, it's like, I have a client. This morning, I had another call, and then now I'm on a podcast, and then tomorrow I'm seeing the surgeon, right? So it's, it's being able to and then my husband's actually going for surgery the next day. So it's being able to navigate all of these things at once. And yeah, on some level, I want to just say, like allowing I'm really just allowing myself to be where I am, and some days I am great, and doing a podcast and coaching clients, because that fills me up. And then there are other days where I'm so angry and I'm so sad and there's some fear, and so it's and then so I feel like those two pieces, it's like allowing the hard pieces to be there, and then also having a knowing that there's a higher path and purpose for this. I don't know exactly. I already know I'm growing and expanding because of this, and I know there will be more. And then I think just the third piece I want to share is that my intuition has always been strong, but it's non negotiable now. And so I again, I'm just offering this for your listeners, right? Just tuning into how to tune into your own inner voice in terms of, what do I need right now? What treatment do I want to pursue? There's a lot of different pieces, and there are a lot of different voices that can be out there, but really the power of having this deep connection to yourself. Truth and trusting yourself to or God or spirit or source, however you want to see it, to help guide the process.   Michael Hingson ** 45:08 When you say your intuition is non negotiable, what do you mean by that?   Andra Wochesen ** 45:13 Listening to my intuitions for that would have been better way to say it. Listening to my intuition is non negotiable. So I will Intuit, if I'm able to work today, I will Intuit I've been intuiting that my body just wants citrus right now, and I'm just, I'm just giving it that, and I have actually learned that that's actually really helpful for cancer cells. So this is me intuiting this long before I heard this information. So it's tuning in and hearing this information and then acting on it. And so, yeah, I think it's it's just we all have intuition, and I think in times like this, we have to get still and get quiet and make sure that we're listening to the inner guidance that we are receiving.   Michael Hingson ** 46:01 So you say you got diagnosed in February, so it's been two months going on three. Why is it taking so long? Maybe it's not, but why is it taking so long to get treatment? Or is this typical?   Andra Wochesen ** 46:16 I don't like, I don't think there is typical. So that's one thing I would say. And I think this surgeon just wants to be very thorough. So for me personally, I mean, this is maybe too much information, but I have dense breasts, so it's very hard for him to see. He doesn't want to just go in. There is cancer there, but he needed to do other biopsies and do other testing, other MRIs to see if there was more so that he doesn't have to operate cut once or whatever they say, Right? He's like, he wants to go in and do take care of everything that needs to be taken care of, right? And so he's doing his due diligence. And so that just takes some time, right? Takes time to get in for appointments. It takes time to get results for appointments.   Michael Hingson ** 47:04 It's a it's a process. I know I can relate to, to what you're saying. I had over the past few years, and it was growing worse pain, especially in my left arm, and I finally talked to my doctor about it. I was going in to just have some standard blood draws and a couple of vaccinations in December. And I mentioned to the doctor this was going on. And I said, What do we do to try to figure this out? And he said, Well, put a couple other blood tests in just to see what, what might show up. And I find that my doctor is as a pretty bright guy, and so he didn't really go into much detail, other than we'll do blood tests and see, well, turns out that one of the blood tests that he ordered was for a heart enzyme called troponin that is produced by the heart when it's not behaving properly. And so on December 23 I learned that my troponin level was at 1100 92 when normally it should be between zero and 20. And I was taken off to an emergency room. We were actually still at the clinic getting vaccinations. When they had done the blood draws and they stat they just did them right away. They did the tests and got the results anyway. The problem was that when they when they did the tests and the blood tests, it took a day, even though they took me right to an emergency room and I sat there for a day, literally before they did an angiogram and a an echocardiogram to determine that there was a bad heart valve, and then nobody did anything with the information. And what so what they should have done was to have me sign forms to send them to my doctor, or given me copies of the CDs with the images to take to the doctor. And nobody talked about doing any of that, and nobody did any of that, and literally, it was like over a month before the doctor even got the information. And nobody seemed to be worried about it in the doctor's environment, which was at the clinic where I had all my other stuff done, or at the bigger hospital related to it. And it was just very strange, and then when they finally did get the information, even then there wasn't a lot of urgency. And for me, it wasn't a matter of being so much angry as puzzlement about why there wasn't a more of an emergency. You got a bad heart valve. It could stop anytime, right? Anyway, it. Took three months before they finally did do an operation and put in an artificial valve. So that was done in March of this year. So it was basically three months after the the initial diagnosis, and now everything is fine, but it is. I know that for me, what I chose to do was not panic. I chose not to be stressed. So during the time I was in the emergency room for that day, I found lots of ways to be entertained by listening to other people. And I had a couple things to listen to. I had recorded books and so on, but it was much more entertaining to listen to other people around me. And all the way up through the surgery, I chose not to be stressed, and it was a little bit tempting to not get too angry because they were taking so long. But still, my choice was not to be worried by all that, because that could only make matters worse. And when we did the surgery, I came right out of it, and started joking with the doctors right away, and they didn't believe that I was coming out of the anesthetic so fast, but I did and and we had a lot of fun with it, but it is, it is interesting. We do have the ability to make choices, and we can choose to move forward in a positive way or not. And I think if we don't choose to do that, and we we allow ourselves to be controlled by our fears, that's really where too many times, we have too many problems that we don't deal with nearly as well as we can.   Andra Wochesen ** 51:36 Yeah, I think choice is key, right? We have a choice what we think. We have a choice how we feel. And I do want to say I'm a big advocate of positive mindset, but I'm also a very big advocate of feeling your feelings. And so I think there's a difference between true feelings and feelings where we create a story around the feelings, and I think it's, I just really want to voice that today, in terms of people not pasting over feelings. I think there's a, yeah, there's a place for all of it. I think getting stuck in negativity or bad feelings or hard feelings is not where we want to be, but suppressing them if they're there, is also not a good place to be. And I think in fact, for me, in this I can be elevated very easily, because it's what I do for a living. But I think me being much more vocal about the challenges of this or the anger, has actually opened up a stronger conviction in me that is actually opening up more power in my expression. And so I feel I just really wanted to presence that in this moment, because I think it's really key to be yes, obviously choosing, choosing our focus and seeing. We talked about that many times today, about seeing the brightness or seeing the gifts and seeing the positives. But I do think it's really important for people to feel what they need to feel. So just wanted to presence that it's what I do all the time with people, and it's one it's what I'm doing with myself.   Michael Hingson ** 53:24 Yeah, and that's why you're walking the talk and you're succeeding. How is faith imperative when navigating challenges like life, challenges like what you're facing now?   Andra Wochesen ** 53:37 Well, I think I remember one talk you said when you were in the World Trade Center and just said, like God said to you, go here or stay calm. I mean, I don't want to misquote you, but it was, I really could feel the truth of that. And so I think there is a higher power, a higher voice, whatever you want to call it, whether it is God, source, spirit, universe, Higher Self, everybody has different language for it. And I think if we can tune in and believe that things are happening for us versus to us, or that there is guidance that's available for us, it's, I think it's what I think we needed. It's, I feel like sometimes it's the only thing that will get us through the hard times, right, is really believing in, yeah, something bigger than us in our own capacity to handle things and and I'm going to say and cultivating that especially in times of challenge. Because I think when we're in times of challenge, it's easier to lose faith. And I actually think we need to double down on faith when in our in our most challenging moments.   Michael Hingson ** 54:42 What is faith?   Andra Wochesen ** 54:46 Well, that's everybody that I can't speak to that, right? That's your I'm speaking to it in my perspective, I think faith is belief in something bigger than you. I think it's faith is. Something unseen, right, something that has not yet manifested. It's believing in something that's not yet in front of you, right? So I can and choose where to place my faith, right? And you get to choose where to place it, so Right, right?   Michael Hingson ** 55:18 But you're continuing, even with the breast cancer and so on. You're continuing to coach, right?   Andra Wochesen ** 55:22 I am, until otherwise I've everybody in my world has to be flexible, because obviously I it's unknown for me in terms of what and I will never show up for a session when I'm not at my fullest capacity. So it just depends on, you know, what that looks like? You know, if I'm recovering from surgery, I'm going to take some time for myself. If I'm in chemotherapy, I'm probably not going to feel very good for certain days, so I'm not going to coach on those days. So it's about, again, me intuiting what I need for me and what serves me, and then making sure that anybody who comes into my world has a very good understanding of that.   Michael Hingson ** 56:03 Oh, can people who are experiencing this podcast with us today apply all of these lessons in their own lives and so on going forward?   Andra Wochesen ** 56:13 Well, I think it's like anything we talked about a lot of things, and I think it's whatever is landing with someone is what they're meant to hear. So there I, you know, very specifically, gave three things around my cancer diagnosis, which I'll reiterate, for people to apply, because I think it's like three steps see the higher perspective of whatever situation or circumstance that you're in that feels like a challenge, whether that is a work challenge, a relationship challenge, a health challenge. Number two, I think, is tuning in to your intuitive guidance, and let's say faith in that container, in that number two. And then I think number three is allowing yourself to express the humanness, which I talked about here, right? Allowing yourself to feel what you feel. Yes, choose the higher perspective when you can. But there are times where tears need to flow, or where you are angry, and it's not about taking out anger on someone else. It's about finding a tool to be able to help you release that anger or be able to express it. So there's, there's lots of things that we can do for that. So I think it's like, yeah, I hope that people can whatever situation they're going through right now that feels even if it's not challenging, it doesn't have to be challenging. But it's like, yeah, see the bigger picture. Tune into intuitive guidance and feel what's really there for you,   Michael Hingson ** 57:41 yeah, which is really important to do. I think we we never spend our we mostly don't spend nearly enough time listening to ourselves and listening to what our inner voices have to say to us that we can use. And I think it's so important to do that,   Andra Wochesen ** 57:59 yes, every day. And I think when we're faced with challenges, it's heightened. And I believe our challenges are here to I've always listened to my inner self, but I think this cancer is like, no, no, you, you're you, you're this is here for you to do it even more. And so I think our challenges are are an opportunity for that to deepen.   Michael Hingson ** 58:20 Well, since you are coaching, and you do a lot of that, if people want to reach out to you and maybe follow up on what they're hearing today, how do they do that?   Andra Wochesen ** 58:29 My website you could do is, actually, you're on LinkedIn a lot, so probably people are listening to this on LinkedIn. So Andra Wochesen is my if you look that up on LinkedIn, Andrawochesen.com, is my website,   Michael Hingson ** 58:44 why don't you spell that? If you would Sure, sure, yeah, a,   Andra Wochesen ** 58:47 An, D, R, A, W, O, C, H, E, S, E, N, and then.com and yeah, I'm also on Instagram, a little bit under Andra underscore energy, coach, so those are the three main places that I am sort of accessible, or where people can reach out.   Michael Hingson ** 59:08 Well, I hope people will reach out. I think you've offered a lot of invaluable insights, and I think there is a lot to be said for the kinds of things that we've talked about today, because we have to listen to ourselves, and mostly we probably have to learn how to listen to ourselves. And you certainly can help with that. Yeah,   Andra Wochesen ** 59:31 that's a great way to say it, right? It is. It is a it's another choice, right? And it is a skill. And it is. It does require a moment to slow down, to really tune in and listen. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 59:42 yeah, absolutely. Well, I want to thank you for being here and spending an hour with us. Can you believe it's been an hour already we've had a lot of fun telling you conversation,   Andra Wochesen ** 59:52 yeah, lots of different topics, lots of different areas. And yeah, thank you for the opportunity to connect with you and. Your audience and to share my story and hopefully some inspiration or insight for those listening.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:08 Well, we're very grateful that you took the time to do this, and I want to express my gratitude to all of you who are out there listening or watching this, and we appreciate you doing so. I hope you liked what Andrew Watson had to say today, I'd love to hear from you. I'd love to hear what your thoughts are. Please feel free to email me at Michael h i at accessibe.   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week

In episode 141 of White Canes Connect, hosts Lisa Bryant and David Goldstein speak with JP Williams, a blind mental health and life coach based in Nashville. Originally a successful country songwriter—co-writing the hit “Best Shot” by Jimmie Allen—JP shares how he transitioned from the music industry into coaching. After decades in music, a career pivot during the pandemic led him to become certified through the International Coach Federation and begin work with Lyra Health, coaching employees from Fortune 500 companies on issues ranging from career transitions and relationships to parenting and goal setting. What sets this conversation apart is how blindness plays only a small, though empowering, role in JP's journey. He emphasizes that coaching is a blind-friendly profession—relying more on listening and intuition than visual cues—and shares how his clients often feel inspired by his life experience. JP breaks down the difference between therapy and coaching, stresses the importance of proper certification, and underscores that real growth happens when clients are seen as creative, resourceful, and whole. He also offers free discovery calls for those interested in coaching and encourages self-investment and adaptability in an ever-changing world. Show notes at https://www.whitecanesconnect.com/141     Links Mentioned Learn more about JP Williams at https://www.jpwilliams.net/  Listen to Best Shot by Jimmy Allen: https://open.spotify.com/track/3eDNb3ZG3gKgjAAgJBcOL8  Have you checked out Federation Focus yet? https://www.youtube.com/@nfbofpa/  Listen to episodes on our website: https://www.whitecanesconnect.com/.  An Easy Way to Help the NFB of PA Support the NFB of PA with every purchase at White Cane Coffee Company by going to https://www.whitecanecoffee.com/ref/nfbp. When you use that link to purchase from White Cane Coffee, the NFB of PA earns a 10% commission! Share the link with your family and friends! Listen to Erin and Bob Willman from White Cane Coffee on episode 072 of White Canes Connect. Donate to the NFB of PA Like what you hear on White Canes Connect? Support us and donate to the National Federation of the Blind of Pennsylvania, visit https://www.NFBofPA.org/give/. We Want to Hear Your Story Reach out with questions and comments, or share ideas! We want to hear from you. Call us at (267) 338-4495 or at whitecanesconnect@gmail.com. Follow White Canes Connect Find out why White Canes Connect is currently ranked at #13 of the 100 Best Visually Impaired Podcast. Find the show on: Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/white-canes-connect/id1592248709  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1YDQSJqpoteGb1UMPwRSuI  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@pablindpodcast 

“Manager and leader”? What's the difference. During my conversation this time with Scott Hanton, our guest, we will discuss this very point along with many other fascinating and interesting subjects. As Scott tells us at the beginning of this episode he grew up asking “why” about most anything you can think of. He always was a “why” asker. As he tells it, unlike many children who grow out of the phase of asking “why” he did not. He still asks “why” to this very day.   At the age of 13 Scott decided that he wanted to be a chemist. He tells us how this decision came about and why he has always stayed with it. Scott received his bachelor's degree in Chemistry from Michigan State and his PHD from the University of Wisconsin. Again, why he changed schools for his PHD work is an interesting story. As you will see, Scott tells stories in a unique and quite articulate way.   After his university days were over Scott went to work, yes as a chemist. He tells us about this and how after 20 years with one company how and why he moved to another company and somewhat out of constant lab work into some of the management, business and leadership side of a second company. He stayed there for ten years and was laid off during the pandemic. Scott then found employment as the editorial director of Lab Management Magazine where he got to bring his love of teaching to the forefront of his work.   My hour with Scott gives us all many insights into management, leadership and how to combine the two to create a strong teaming environment. I believe you will find Scott's thoughts extremely poignant and helpful in everything that you do.     About the Guest:   Scott Hanton is the Editorial Director of Lab Manager. He spent 30 years as a research chemist, lab manager, and business leader at Air Products and Intertek. Scott thrives on the challenges of problem-solving. He enjoys research, investigation, and collaboration. Scott is a people-centric, servant leader. He is motivated by developing environments where people can grow and succeed, and crafting roles for people that take advantage of their strengths.   Scott earned a BS in chemistry from Michigan State University and a PhD in physical chemistry from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. He is an active member of the American Chemical Society (ACS), the American Society of Mass Spectrometry (ASMS), and the Association of Lab Managers (ALMA). As a scientist Scott values curiosity, innovation, progress, and delivery of results. Scott has always been motivated by questions beginning with why. Studying physical chemistry in graduate school offered the opportunity to hone answers to these questions. As a professional scientist, Scott worked in analytical chemistry specializing in MALDI mass spectrometry and polymer characterization.   At Scott married his high school sweetheart, and they have one son. Scott is motivated by excellence, happiness, and kindness. He most enjoys helping people and solving problems. Away from work, Scott enjoys working outside in the yard, playing strategy games, and participating in different discussion groups.   Scott values having a growth mindset and is a life-long learner. He strives to learn something new everyday and from everyone. One of the great parts of being a trained research scientist is that failure really isn't part of his vocabulary. He experiments and either experiences success or learns something new. He values both individual and organizational learning.   Scott's current role at Lab Manager encompasses three major responsibilities: ·      Writing articles and giving presentations to share his experience with lab managers. ·      Driving the creation and growth of the Lab Manager Academy (https://labmanageracademy.com/) that currently contains three certificate programs: lab management, lab safety management, and lab quality management. ·      Helping people through his knowledge of science, scientists, management, and leadership. He is very happy sharing the accumulated wisdom of his experiences as a researcher, lab supervisor, and lab manager. Each article posted on Lab Manager addresses a decision that a lab manager needs to make. Lab management is full of decision-making, so helping people make better, faster, more complete decisions is very satisfying. Ways to connect with Scott:   https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-hanton/   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion diversity and the unexpected meet, and mostly we get to deal with the unexpected, as opposed to inclusion or diversity. But that's okay, because unexpected is what makes life fun, and our guest today, Scott Hanton, will definitely be able to talk about that. Scott has been a research chemist. He comes from the chemistry world, so he and I in the past have compared notes, because, of course, I come from the physics world, and I love to tell people that the most important thing I learned about physics was that, unlike Doc Brown, although I do know how to build a bomb, unlike Doc Brown from Back to the Future, I'm not dumb enough to try to go steal fissionable material from a terrorist group to build the bomb. So, you know, I suppose that's a value, value lesson somewhere. But anyway, I am really glad that you're all here with us today, and we have lots to talk about. Scott, as I said, was in chemistry and research chemist, and now is the editorial supervisor and other things for a magazine called lab manager, and we will talk about that as well. So Scott, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad   Scott Hanton ** 02:38 you're here. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation with you today.   Michael Hingson ** 02:43 Well, I think it'll be a lot of fun, and looking forward to it. Now, you're in Michigan, right?   Scott Hanton ** 02:48 That's right. I live in South Lyon, Michigan,   Michael Hingson ** 02:51 ah, what's the weather back there today?   Scott Hanton ** 02:55 It's probably about 55 degrees and cloudy   Michael Hingson ** 02:58 here today. Well, it's still fairly sunny here, and we're actually, according to my iPhone, at 71 so it was up around 80 earlier in the week, but weather changes are still going to bring some cold for a while   Scott Hanton ** 03:15 in here in Michigan, I visited a customer earlier this week, and I drove by about 1000 orange barrels on the highway, which means it's spring, because there's only two seasons in Michigan, winter and construction.   Michael Hingson ** 03:29 There you go. Yeah, I know. I went to the University of California, Irvine, UCI. And if you ask somebody who doesn't know that UCI stands for University of California at Irvine. If you ask them what UCI stands for, they'll tell you, under construction indefinitely. Sounds right? Yeah. Well, it's been doing it ever since I was there a long time ago, and they they continue to grow. Now we're up to like 32,000 fresh, or excuse me, undergraduates at the university. And when I was there, there were 2700 students. So it's grown a little. That's   Scott Hanton ** 04:05 a lot of change. I'm used to big universities. I'm a graduate of both Michigan State and the University of Wisconsin. So these are big places.   Michael Hingson ** 04:13 Wow, yeah. So you're used to it. I really enjoyed it when it was a small campus. I'm glad I went there, and that was one of the reasons that caused me to go there, was because I knew I could probably get a little bit more visibility with instructors, and that would be helpful for me to get information when they didn't describe things well in class. And it generally worked out pretty well. So I can't complain a lot. Perfect. Glad it worked well for you, it did. Well, why don't you start, if you would, by telling us kind of about the early Scott growing up and all that sort of stuff.   Scott Hanton ** 04:49 I grew up in Michigan, in a town called Saginaw. I was blessed with a family that loved me and that, you know, I was raised in a very. Supportive environment. But young Scott asked, Why about everything you know, the way kids do? Yeah, right. And my mom would tell you that when I was a kid, why was my most favorite word? And most kids outgrow that. I never did, yeah, so Me neither. I still ask why all the time. It's still my most favorite word, and it caused me to want to go explore the sciences, because what I found, as I learned about science, was that I could get answers to why questions better in science than in other places.   Michael Hingson ** 05:34 Yeah, makes sense. So what kinds of questions did you ask about why? Well, I asked   Scott Hanton ** 05:43 all kinds of questions about why, like, why are we having that for dinner? Or, why is my bedtime so early? Those questions didn't have good answers, at least from my perspective, right? But I also asked questions like, why is grass green, and why is the sky blue? And studying physical chemistry at Michigan State answered those questions. And so   Michael Hingson ** 06:03 how early did you learn about Rayleigh scattering? But that's you know?   Scott Hanton ** 06:07 Well, I learned the basic concepts from a really important teacher in my life, Mr. Leeson was my seventh grade science teacher, and what I learned from him is that I could ask questions that weren't pertinent to what he was lecturing about, and that taught me a lot about the fact that science was a lot bigger than what we got in the curriculum or in the classroom. And so Mr. Leeson was a really important person in my development, and showed me that there was that science was a lot bigger than I thought it was as a student, but I didn't really learn about rally scattering until I got to college.   Michael Hingson ** 06:43 But at the same time, it sounds like he was willing to allow you to grow and and learn, which so many people aren't willing to do. They're too impatient.   Scott Hanton ** 06:58 He was a first year teacher the year I had him so he hadn't become cynical yet. So it was great to just be able to stay after class and ask him a question, or put my hand up in class and ask him a question. He also did a whole series of demonstrations that were fabulous and made the science come to life in a way that reading about it doesn't stir the imagination. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 07:23 I had teachers that did that too. I remember very well my freshman general science teacher in high school, Mr. Dills, and one day, and he loved to do kind of unique things, just to push the boundaries of students a little bit. He came in one day and he said, I got a pop quiz for everybody, which doesn't help me, because the pop quiz was in print, but he handed it out. And then he took me to the back of the room, and he said, You're not going to really be able to do this quiz. Let me tell you why. And he said, Oh, and one thing he said is, just be sure you follow all the instructions and you'll be fine on the test to everybody. He brought me back to the back of the room. He says, Well, here's the deal. He says, if people really read the instructions, what they'll do is they'll read the instruction that says, Read all the questions before you start answering, and if you get to the last question, it says answer only the first question, which is what is your name and and sure enough, of course, people didn't read the instructions. And he said, so I wouldn't be able to really deal with you with that one, with that whole thing, just because it wouldn't work well. And I said, I understand, but he loved to make students think, and I learned so much about the whole concept of realizing the need to observe and be observant in all that you do. And it was lessons like that from him that really helped a lot with that. For me,   Scott Hanton ** 08:48 I had a high school chemistry teacher named Mrs. Schultz, and the first experiment that we did in her class, in the first week of classes, was she wanted us to document all of the observations that we could make about a burning candle. And I was a hot shot student. Thought I, you know, owned the world, and I was going to ace this test. And, you know, I had maybe a dozen observations about a burning candle, and thought I had done a great job describing it, until she started sharing her list, and she probably had 80 observations about a burning candle, and it taught me the power of observation and the need to talk about the details of those observations and to be specific about what the observations were. And that experiment seems simple, light a candle and tell me what you see. Yeah, but that lesson has carried on with me now for more than approaching 50 years.   Michael Hingson ** 09:47 Let's see, as I recall, if you light a candle, what the center of the flame is actually pretty cool compared to the outside. It's more hollow. Now I wouldn't be able to easily tell that, because. Is my my process for observing doesn't really use eyesight to do that, so I I'm sure there are other technologies today that I could use to get more of that information. But   Scott Hanton ** 10:12 I'm also sure that that experiment could be re crafted so that it wasn't so visual, yeah, right, that there could be tactile experiments to tell me about observations or or audible experiments about observation, where you would excel in ways that I would suffer because I'm so visually dominant. The   Michael Hingson ** 10:33 issue, though, is that today, there's a lot more technology to do that than there was when I was in school and you were in school, but yeah, I think there is a lot available. There's a company called Independence Science, which is actually owned and run by Dr Cary sapollo. And Carrie is blind, and he is a blind chemist, and he wanted to help develop products for blind people to be able to deal with laboratory work. So he actually worked with a company that was, well, it's now Vernier education systems. They make a product called LabQuest with something like 80 different kinds of probes that you can attach to it, and the LabQuest will will provide visual interpretations of whatever the probes are showing carry, and independent science took that product and made it talk, so that There is now a Talking LabQuest. And the reality is that all those probes became usable because the LabQuest became accessible to be able to do that, and they put a lot of other things into it too. So it's more than just as a talking device, a lab device. It's got a periodic table in it. It's got a lot of other kinds of things that they just put in it as well. But it's really pretty cool because it now makes science a whole lot more accessible. I'm going to have to think about the different kinds of probes and how one could use that to look at a candle. I think that'd be kind of fun.   Scott Hanton ** 12:15 And it's just awesome to hear that there's innovation and space to make science more available to everybody. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:23 the real problem that we face is the one that we mostly always have faced, which is societal attitudes, as opposed to really being or not being able to do the experiments, is people think we can't, and that's the barrier that we always, usually have to overcome.   Scott Hanton ** 12:39 What I find in my time as a coach, mentor, supervisor, is that if somebody believes they can't do it, they can't do it. Yeah. And so it's often about overcoming their own mental limitations, the limitations that they've placed on themselves,   Michael Hingson ** 12:56 and that's right, or unfortunately, the limitations that other people place on us, and we, all too often and weigh too much, buy into those limitations. So it's it is something that we, especially in the sciences, should recognize that we shouldn't be doing so much of. I know that when I was at UC Irvine as a graduate student, I learned once that there was a letter in my file that a professor wrote. Fortunately, I never had him as a professor, but it and I was in my master's program at the time in physics, and this guy put a letter in my file saying that no blind person could ever absorb the material to get an advanced degree in physics at the University. Just put that in there, which is so unfortunate, because the real thing that is demonstrated there is a prejudice that no scientist should ever have.   Scott Hanton ** 13:51 I'm hopeful that as you graduated, there was a retraction letter in your file as well,   Michael Hingson ** 13:57 not that I ever heard, but yeah. Well, I'd already gotten my bachelor's degree, but yeah. But you know, things happen, but it is a it is a societal thing, and society all too often creates limitations, and sometimes we don't find them right away, but it is one of the big issues that, in general, we have to deal with. And on all too often, society does some pretty strange things because it doesn't understand what science is all about. I know when we were dealing with covid, when it all started, leaving the conspiracy theorists out of it. One of the things that I learned was that we have all these discussions about AI, if you will. But AI was one of the primary mechanisms that helped to develop the mRNA vaccines that are now still the primary things that we use to get vaccinated against covid, because they the artificial intelligence. I'm not sure how artificial. It is, but was able to craft what became the vaccine in a few days. And scientists acknowledged, if they had to do it totally on their own, it would take years to have done what AI did in a few days.   Scott Hanton ** 15:13 The AI technology is amazing and powerful, but it's not new. No, I met a person who shared her story about AI investigations and talked about what she was doing in this field 30 years ago. Yeah, in her master's work. And you know, I knew it wasn't brand new, but I didn't really realize how deep its roots went until I talked to her.   Michael Hingson ** 15:37 I worked as my first jobs out of college with Ray Kurzweil, who, of course, nowadays, is well known for the singularity and so on. But back then, he developed the first reading machine that blind people could use to read printed material. And one of the things that he put into that machine was the ability, as it scanned more material, to learn and better recognize the material. And so he was doing machine learning back in the 1970s   Scott Hanton ** 16:07 right? And all of this is, you know, as Newton said on the shoulders of giants, right, right? He said it a bit cynically, but it's still true that we all in science, we are learning from each other. We're learning from the broader community, and we're integrating that knowledge as we tackle the challenges that we are exploring.   Michael Hingson ** 16:27 So what got you to go into chemistry when you went into college?   Scott Hanton ** 16:33 That's a good question. So when I was 13 years old, I went on a youth a church group youth trip to another city, and so they split us up, and there were three of us from our group that stayed overnight in a host family. And at dinner that night, the father worked in a pharmaceutical company, and he talked about the work he was doing, and what he was doing was really synthetic chemistry around small molecule drug discovery. And for me, it was absolutely fascinating. I was thrilled at that information. I didn't know any scientists growing up, I had no adult input other than teachers about science, and I can remember going back home and my parents asking me how the trip went. And it's like, it's fantastic. I'm going to be a chemist. And they both looked at me like, what is that? How do you make money from it? How do you get that? My dad was a banker. My mom was a school teacher. They had no scientific background, but that that one conversation, such serendipity, right? One conversation when I was 13 years old, and I came home and said, I'm going to be a chemist, and I've never really deviated from that path. Did you have other siblings? Younger brother and another younger sister?   Michael Hingson ** 17:54 Okay? Did they go into science by any remote chance?   Scott Hanton ** 17:58 Not at all. So they were both seventh grade teachers for more than 30 years. So my brother taught math and English, and my sister teaches social studies.   Michael Hingson ** 18:10 Well, there you go. But that is also important. I actually wanted to teach physics, but jobs and other things and circumstances took me in different directions, but I think the reality is that I ended up going into sales. And what I realized, and it was partly because of a Dale Carnegie sales course I took, but I realized that good sales people are really teachers, because they're really teaching people about products or about things, and they're also sharp enough to recognize what their products might or might not do to help a customer. But that, again, not everyone does that, but so I figure I still was teaching, and today, being a public speaker, traveling the world, talking, of course, about teamwork and other things, it's still all about teaching.   Scott Hanton ** 18:57 I think I've always been a teacher, and if you talk to my coworkers along the way, I enjoy helping people. I enjoy sharing my knowledge. There's always been a teacher inside but only in this job as the editorial director at lab manager have I really been able to do it directly. So we've developed what we call the lab manager Academy, and I create e learning courses to help lab managers be more successful, and it's been a passion project for me, and it's been a load of fun.   Michael Hingson ** 19:30 And it doesn't get better than that. It's always great when it's a load of fun, yes,   Scott Hanton ** 19:35 well, so you left college and you got a bachelor's and a master's degree, right? No masters for me, that step you went right to the old PhD, yeah. So I went straight. I went graduated from Michigan State. So Michigan State was on terms back in those days. So graduated in June, got married in July, moved to Wisconsin in August. To graduate school at the end of August at the University of Wisconsin. Okay? And my second year as a graduate student, my professor asked me, Do you want to stop and complete a master's? And I said, Wait, tell me about this word stop. And he said, Well, you'd have to finish the Master's requirements and write a thesis, and that's going to take some time. And I said, Do I have to and he said, No, and I don't recommend it. Just keep going forward and finish your PhD. So that's   Michael Hingson ** 20:30 and what does your wife do?   Scott Hanton ** 20:33 So my wife also is in the graduate program at the University of Wisconsin, and she decided that a master's degree was the right answer for her, because she didn't want to be a PhD scientist in XYZ narrow band of science. She wanted to be a master of chemistry. Okay, and so we took different paths through graduate school, but each of us took the path that worked best for us, and each pass has great value, so we're both happy with the choices that we made,   Michael Hingson ** 21:06 and complement each other and also give you, still lots of great things to talk about over dinner.   Scott Hanton ** 21:12 Absolutely. And she took that master's degree, went into the pharmaceutical industry and largely behaved as a librarian in her first part of her career, she wasn't called a librarian, but what she really did was a lot of information integrating, and then moved into the Library Group, and was a corporate librarian for a long time, and then a community librarian. So that path worked brilliantly for her. She also has a Masters of Library Science. So I have one PhD. She has two Master's degree. I have one bachelor's degree. She has two bachelor's degree.   Michael Hingson ** 21:50 Oh, so you can have interesting discussions about who really progressed further,   21:54 absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 21:57 Well, that's, that's, that's cute, though. Well, I I got my bachelor's and master's. My wife, who I didn't meet until years later, wanted to be a librarian, but she ended up getting a a Master's at USC in so in sociology and and ended up getting a teaching credential and going into teaching, and taught for 10 years, and then she decided she wanted to do something different, and became a travel agent, which she had a lot of fun with. That is different, it is, but she enjoyed it, and along the way, then we got married. It was a great marriage. She was in a wheelchair her whole life. So she read, I pushed, worked out well, complimentary skills, absolutely, which is the way, way it ought to be, you know, and we had a lot of fun with it. Unfortunately, she passed now two and a half years ago, but as I tell people, we were married 40 years, and I'm sure she's monitoring me from somewhere, and if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it, so I try to just behave. Sounds like good advice. Yeah, probably certainly the safe way to go. But we, we, we had lots of neat discussions, and our our activities and our expertise did, in a lot of ways, complement each other, so it was a lot of fun. And as I said, she went to USC. I enjoyed listening to USC football because I thought that that particular college team had the best announcers in the business, least when when I was studying in Southern California, and then when we got married, we learned the the day we got married, the wedding was supposed to start at four, and it didn't start till later because people weren't showing up for the wedding. And we learned that everybody was sitting out in their cars waiting for the end of the USC Notre Dame game. And we knew that God was on our side when we learned that SC beat the snot out of Notre Dame. So there you go. Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh, the rivalries we face. So what did you do after college?   Scott Hanton ** 24:09 So did my PhD at the University of Wisconsin. And one of the nice things, a fringe benefit of going to a big, important program to do your PhD, is that recruiters come to you. And so I was able to do 40 different, four, zero, 40 different interviews on campus without leaving Madison. And one of those interviews was with a company called Air Products. And that worked out, and they hired me. And so we moved to Allentown, Pennsylvania to go to work. I went to work at Air Products and and Helen found a role in the pharmaceutical industry at Merck. And so we did that for a long time. I was initially a research expert, a PhD expert doing lasers and materials and analytical stuff. And over the years. I progressed up the ladder from researcher to supervisor to what did we call it, group head to Section Manager, to operations manager, and ultimately to General Manager.   Michael Hingson ** 25:13 Well, at least being in Allentown, you were close to a Cracker Barrel restaurant. Yes, that is true. That was the closest to one to where we lived in New Jersey, so we visited it several times. That's how I know   Scott Hanton ** 25:26 about it. Maybe we were there at the same time. Michael, maybe this isn't our first. It's   Michael Hingson ** 25:31 very possible. But we enjoyed Cracker Barrel and enjoyed touring around Pennsylvania. So I should have asked, What prompted you to go to the University of Wisconsin to do your your graduate work, as opposed to staying in Michigan. So   Scott Hanton ** 25:47 my advisor at Michigan State, our advisor at Michigan State, told us, here's the top five schools, graduate programs in chemistry, apply to them all. Go to the one you get into. And so I got into three. Helen got into two. The one that was the same was Wisconsin. So that's where we went, yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 26:09 Well, then no better logic and argument than that.   Scott Hanton ** 26:14 It was a great Madison. Wisconsin is a beautiful city. It one of the things I really liked about the chemistry program there then, and it's still true now, is how well the faculty get along together so many collaborative projects and just friendliness throughout the hallways. And yes, they are all competing at some level for grant support, but they get along so well, and that makes it for a very strong community,   Michael Hingson ** 26:41 and it probably also means that oftentimes someone who's applying for something can enlist support from other people who are willing to help.   Scott Hanton ** 26:50 And as a graduate student, it meant that I had more than one professor that I could go to my advisor. There was a whole group of advisors who ran joint group meetings and would give us advice about our work or our writing or our approach, or just because we needed a pep talk, because completing a PhD is hard. Yeah, right, so that community was really important to me, and it's something I took away that when I started my industrial career, I had seen the value of community, and I wanted to build stronger communities wherever I went, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 27:26 So what does a company, does air products do   Scott Hanton ** 27:31 that's sort of in the name, right? They're an industrial gas company. Got some of their big, biggest products are taking air and separating it into its components of nitrogen, oxygen, oxygen, argon, whatever, right? But at that time, they also had a chemicals business and a semiconductor business, or electronics business. So there was a lot of chemistry going on, although a lot of my work colleagues were chemical engineers who were working on the gasses side of the business, we had significant number of chemistry, sorts material science, sorts of people who are working on the chemicals side. Now, over time, Air Products divested those businesses, and now it's much more of a true industrial gas company. But I had the opportunity to work in an integrated science company that did all sorts of things.   Michael Hingson ** 28:23 Yeah, and as as we know, certainly a little helium never hurt anyone.   Scott Hanton ** 28:30 No little helium, you know, raises people's spirits, it   Michael Hingson ** 28:34 does and their voices, it does. I I've visited helium tanks many times at UC Irvine when they had liquid helium, which was certainly a challenge because of how cold it had to be. But occasionally we would open a valve and little cold but useful helium gas would escape   Scott Hanton ** 28:56 very cold. Please be safe. Cryogens are are dangerous materials, and we gotta make sure we handle them with due respect.   Michael Hingson ** 29:05 Yeah, well, we, we all did and and didn't take too many chances. So it worked out pretty well. So you stayed in Allentown and you stayed with Air Products for how long   Scott Hanton ** 29:19 I was in Air Products for 20 years. So the analytical group that I was part of, we were about 92 or 93 people when I joined the company, when I just left after earning my PhD. After 20 years, that group was down to about 35 just progressive series of decisions that made the department smaller, and as the Department got smaller and smaller, we were worried about our abilities to sustain our work. And so a dear friend and a key colleague, Paula McDaniel, and I, worked to try to see what other kind of opportunities there were. Yeah. And so we reached out to a contract research organization called Intertech to see if they would be interested in maybe acquiring our analytical department. And when we called them, and by the way, we called them before we talked to our boss about it, she forgave us later, but when we called the guy on the end of the phone said, Wait a minute, let me get your file. And it's like, what you have a file on Air Products, analytical, really? Why? Well, it turned out that they had a file, and that they had an active Merger and Acquisition Group, and they wanted an integrated analytical department on the east coast of the US. And so we engaged in negotiation, and ultimately this analytical department was sold by Air Products to Intertech. So on Friday, we're a little cog in a giant engine of an global, international company, and our funding comes from Vice Presidents. And on Monday, we're a standalone business of 35 people, we need to write quotes in order to make money. So it was an enormous challenge to transition from a service organization to a business. But oh my goodness, did we learn a lot,   Michael Hingson ** 31:13 certainly a major paradigm shift,   Scott Hanton ** 31:18 and I was lucky that I lost the coin flip, and Paula won, and she said, I want to be business development director. And I said, thank God. So she went off to be the key salesperson, and Paula was utterly brilliant as a technical salesperson, and I became the operations manager, which allowed me to keep my hands dirty with the science and to work with the scientists and to build a system and a community that allowed us to be successful in a CRO world.   Michael Hingson ** 31:49 So at that time, when you became part, part of them, the new company, were you or the standalone business? Were you working in lab? Still yourself?   Scott Hanton ** 32:01 Yes. So I had the title Operations Manager and all of the scientific staff reported into me, but I was still the technical expert in some mass spectrometry techniques, particularly MALDI and also tough Sims, and so I still had hands on lab responsibility that I needed to deliver. And over time, I was able to train some people to take some of those responsibilities off. But when the weight of the world was particularly heavy, the place for me to go was in the lab and do some experiments.   Michael Hingson ** 32:34 Yeah, still so important to be able to keep your hand in into to know and understand. I know I had that same sort of need being the manager of an office and oftentimes working with other people who were the engineers, coming from a little bit of a technical background as well. I worked to always make sure I knew all I could about the products that I was dealing with and selling, and my sales people who worked for me constantly asked, How come, you know, all this stuff, and we don't then, my response always was, did you read the product bulletin that came out last week? Or have you kept up on the product bulletins? Because it's all right there, whether I actually physically repaired products or not, I knew how to do it. And so many times when I was involved in working with some of our engineers, I remember a few times our field support people, and we were working out of New Jersey, and then in New York at the time, in the World Trade Center, we had some customers up at Lockheed Martin, up in Syria, Rochester, I think it was. And the guys would go up, and then they'd call me on the phone, and we'd talk about it, and between us, we came up with some bright ideas. And I remember one day, all of a sudden, I get this phone call, and these guys are just bouncing off the walls, because whatever it was that was going on between them and me, we figured it out, and they put it in play and made it work, and they were all just as happy as clams at high tide, which is the way it ought to   Scott Hanton ** 34:13 be. It's great to work in a team that finds success. The longer I was in technical management, the more I enjoyed the success of the team. It didn't need to be my success anymore that helping the scientists be successful in their roles was truly satisfying,   Michael Hingson ** 34:33 and that helped you, by definition, be more successful in your role.   Scott Hanton ** 34:36 And no question, it could be seen as a selfish byproduct, but the fact is that it still felt really good.   Michael Hingson ** 34:43 Yeah, I hear you, because I know for me, I never thought about it as I've got to be successful. It's we've got problems to solve. Let's do it together. And I always told people that we're a team. And I have told every salesperson. I ever hired. I'm not here to boss you around. You've convinced me that you should be able to sell our products, and sometimes I found that they couldn't. But I said my job is to work with you to figure out how I can enhance what you do, and what skills do I bring to add value to you, because we've got to work together, and the people who understood that and who got it were always the most successful people that I ever had in my teams.   Scott Hanton ** 35:30 One of the things I strive to do as a leader of any organization is to understand the key strengths of the people on the team and to try to craft their roles in such a way that they spend the majority of their time executing their strengths. Yeah. I've also discovered that when I truly investigate poor performance, there's often a correlation between poor performance and people working in their weaknesses. Yeah, and if we can shift those jobs, change those roles, make change happen so that people can work more often in their strengths, then good things happen.   Michael Hingson ** 36:07 And if you can bring some of your skills into the mix and augment what they do, so much the better.   Scott Hanton ** 36:16 Yeah, because I'm just another member of the team, my role is different, but I need to also apply my strengths to the problems and be wary of my weaknesses, because as the leader of the organization, my words carried undue weight. Yeah, and if, if I was speaking or acting in a space where I was weak, people would still do what I said, because I had the most authority, and that was just a lose, lose proposition   Michael Hingson ** 36:43 by any standard. And and when you, when you operated to everyone's strengths, it always was a win. Yep, which is so cool. So you went to Intertech, and how long were you there?   Scott Hanton ** 36:57 I was at Intertech for 10 years, and work I can if you know, for any listeners out there who work in the CRO world, it is a tough business. It is a grind working in that business, yeah? So it was a lot of long hours and testy customers and shortages of materials and equipment that was a hard a hard a hard road to plow,   Michael Hingson ** 37:22 yeah, yeah, it gets to be frustrating. Sometimes it's what you got to do, but it still gets to be frustrating gets to be a challenge. The best part   Scott Hanton ** 37:32 for me was I had a great team. We had senior and junior scientists. They were good people. They worked hard. They fundamentally, they cared about the outcomes. And so it was a great group of people to work with. But the contract lab business is a tough business. Yeah, so when covid came, you know, the pandemic settles in, all the restrictions are coming upon us. I was tasked as the General Manager of the business with setting up all the protocols, you know, how are we going to meet the number of people this basing the masks, you know, how could we work with and we were essential as a lab, so we had to keep doing what we were doing. And it took me about a week to figure non stop work to figure out what our protocols were going to be, and the moment I turned them into my boss, then I got laid off. So what you want to do in a time of crisis is you want to let go of the the general manager, the safety manager, the quality manager and the Chief Scientist, because those are four people that you don't need during times of stress or challenge or crisis. On the plus side for me, getting laid off was a bad hour. It hurt my pride, but after an hour, I realized that all the things that I'd been stressing about for years trying to run this business were no longer my problem. Yeah, and I found that it was a tremendous weight lifted off my shoulders to not feel responsible for every problem and challenge that that business had.   Michael Hingson ** 39:14 And that's always a good blessing when you when you figure that out and don't worry about the the issues anymore. That's a good thing. It was certainly   Scott Hanton ** 39:25 good for me. Yeah, so I'm not going to recommend that people go get laid off. No world to get fired. But one problem that I had is because Paula and I worked to create that business, I sort of behaved like an owner, but was treated like an employee. And my recommendation to people is, remember, you're an employee, find some personal boundaries that protect you from the stress of the business, because you're not going to be rewarded or treated like an owner.   Michael Hingson ** 39:58 Yeah, because you're not because. Or not.   Scott Hanton ** 40:01 So I got laid off. It was in the height of the pandemic. So, you know, I'm too busy of a human being to sort of sit in a rocking chair and watch the birds fly by. That's not my style or my speed. So I started a consulting business, and that was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed doing the consulting work, but I learned something really important about myself, and that's that while I can sell and I can be an effective salesperson, I don't like selling, and as a company of one, when I didn't sell, I didn't make any money, yeah, and so I needed to figure out something else to do, because I really hated selling, and I wasn't doing it. I was procrastinating, and that made the business be unpredictable and very choppy   Michael Hingson ** 40:51 in that company of one, that guy who was working for you wasn't really doing all that you wanted.   Scott Hanton ** 40:56 Exactly the Yeah, you know me as the founder, was giving me as the salesman, a poor performance review was not meeting objectives. So I had a long time volunteer relationship with lab manager magazine. I had been writing articles for them and speaking for them in webinars and in conferences for a long time, probably more than 10 years, I would say, and they asked me as a consultant to produce a a to a proposal to create the lab manager Academy. So the the founder and owner of the the company, the lab X Media Group, you really saw the value of an academy, and they needed it done. They needed it done. They couldn't figure it out themselves. So I wrote the proposal. I had a good idea of how to do it, but I was new to consulting, and I struggled with, how do I get paid for this? And I had four ideas, but I didn't like them, so I slept on it, and in the morning I had a fifth, which said, hire me full time. I sent in the proposal. An hour later, I had a phone call. A week later, I had a job, so that worked out fantastic. And I've really enjoyed my time at lab manager magazine. Great people, fun work. It's really interesting to me to be valued for what I know rather than for what I can do. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:23 the two relate. But still, it does need to be more about what you know, what you really bring, as opposed to what you can do, because what you can do in general probably is an offshoot of what you know.   Scott Hanton ** 42:38 So this gives me the opportunity to help lots of people. So on the outside of the company, I'm writing articles, creating courses, giving talks to help lab managers. Because I was a lab manager for a long time, yeah, over 20 years, and I know what those challenges are. I know how hard that job is, and I know how many decisions lab managers need to make, and it's wonderful to be able to share my experience and help them, and I am motivated to help them. So was it hard? Oh, go ahead, on the inside, I'm literally an internal subject matter expert, and so I can coach and teach and help my colleagues with what's the science? What do lab managers really think? How do we pitch this so that it resonates with lab managers, and I think that helps make all of our products better and more successful.   Michael Hingson ** 43:31 So was it hard? Well, I guess best way to put it is that, was it really hard to switch from being a scientist to being a lab manager and then going into being a subject matter expert and really out of the laboratory. So   Scott Hanton ** 43:48 people ask me all the time, Scott, don't you miss being in the lab and doing experiments? And my answer is, I miss being in the lab. And I do miss being in the lab. You know, on very stressful days at Intertech, I'd go in the lab and I'd do an experiment, yeah, because it was fun, and I had more control over the how the experiment was run and what I would learn from it than I did running a business. But the flip side of that is, I do experiments all the time. What I learned as the general manager of a business was the scientific method works. Let's data hypothesis. Let's figure out how to test it. Let's gather data, and let's see if the hypothesis stands or falls. And we ran a business that way, I think, pretty successfully. And even now, in in media and publishing, we still run experiments all the time. And it's kind of funny that most of my editorial colleagues that I work with, they think my favorite word is experiment. My favorite word is still why, but we talk all the time now about doing experiments, and that was a new thing for them, but now we can do continual improvement more in a more dedicated way, and we do it a lot faster. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 45:00 yeah. So what's the hardest thing you think about being a lab manager?   Scott Hanton ** 45:06 I think the hardest thing about let me answer that with two. I'm not going to be able to narrow it down to one, so I'll give you two. The first one is you transform, maybe one day to the next, from really being in control of your science and working with whether it's animals or rocks or electrons or chemicals, whatever you're working with, having a great degree of knowledge and a lot of control, and the next day, you're hurting cats. And so it's about that transition from having control over your destiny to influencing people to get the work done, and working with people instead of working with experiments, that's really hard. The second is, as a lab manager, there's endless decisions, and so combating decision fatigue is a big deal, and everybody in the lab depends upon you for the decisions you make. And it's not that every decision has to be perfect, you know, that's just a different failure mode if you try to make perfect decisions, but every decision needs to be made promptly. And as a scientist, I could always make more data in order to make a better decision, but as a lab manager, I would often only have maybe 40 or 50% of the data I wanted, and a decision had to be made. And getting comfortable making decisions in the face of uncertainty is really hard.   Michael Hingson ** 46:29 So certainly, being a lab manager or Well, dealing with managers in the way we're talking about it here, has to be very stressful. How do you how do you cope with the stress?   Scott Hanton ** 46:42 So I think ways to cope with the stress successfully is, first of all, you've got to take care of yourself. You know, we've all flown on airplanes, and what is the safety person in the aisle or on the video? Do oxygen masks will fall from the ceiling, and what do we do with them? We put them on before we help somebody else, right? We all know that. But in the workplace, especially as a manager, it's hard to remember that as we care for our team and try and take care of our team, there might not be enough time or energy or capacity left to take care of ourselves, but if we don't fill that gas tank every day doing something, then we can't help our team. And so one way to deal with the stress is to make sure that you take care of yourself. So   Michael Hingson ** 47:28 what do you do? How do you deal with that? So   Scott Hanton ** 47:31 for me, ways that I can reinvigorate is one. I like being outside and get my hands dirty. So I'm not really a gardener, but I call myself a yard dinner. So I grow grass and I grow flowers, and I trim trees, and I want to go outside, and I want to see immediate return on my effort, and I want it to be better than when I started. And it's good if I have to clean from under my fingernails when I'm doing it. Another thing I like to do is I play all kinds of games I'm happy to play, sorry, with little kids, or I'll play complicated strategy games with people who want to sit at a table for three or four hours at a time. Yeah? And that allows my brain to spin and to work but on something completely different. Yeah. And another thing that's been important for me, especially when I was a lab manager is to be involved in youth coaching, so I coached kids soccer and basketball and baseball teams, and it's just beautiful to be out there on a field with a ball, with kids. And you know, the worries of the world just aren't there. The kids don't know anything about them. And it's fun to work with the ones who are really good, but it's equally fun to work with the ones who have never seen the ball before, and to help them do even the most basic things. And that kind of giving back and paying it forward, that sort of stuff fills my tank.   Michael Hingson ** 48:51 Yeah, I empathize a lot with with that. For me, I like to read. I've never been much of a gardener, but I also collect, as I mentioned before, old radio shows, and I do that because I'm fascinated by the history and all the things I learned from what people did in the 2030s, 40s and 50s, being on radio, much Less getting the opportunity to learn about the technical aspects of how they did it, because today it's so different in terms of how one edits, how one processes and deals with sounds and so on, but it's but it's fun to do something just totally different than way maybe what your normal Job would be, and and I do love to interact with with people. I love to play games, too. I don't get to do nearly as much of it as I'd like, but playing games is, is a lot of fun,   Scott Hanton ** 49:52 and I agree, and it it's fun, it's diverting, it's it helps me get into a flow so that I'm focused on. Me on one thing, and I have no idea how much time has gone by, and I don't really care. You know, people who play games with me might question this. I don't really care if I win or lose. Certainly I want to win, but it's more important to me that I play well, and if somebody plays better, good for   Michael Hingson ** 50:14 them, great. You'll learn from it. Exactly. Do you play   Scott Hanton ** 50:18 chess? I have played chess. I've played a lot of chess. What I've learned with chess is that I'm not an excellent I'm a good player, but not an excellent player. And when I run into excellent players, they will beat me without even breaking a sweat.   Michael Hingson ** 50:34 And again, in theory, you learn something from that.   Scott Hanton ** 50:37 What I found is that I don't really want to work that hard and yeah. And so by adding an element of chance or probability to the game, the people who focus on chess, where there are known answers and known situations, they get thrown off by the uncertainty of the of the flip the card or roll the dice. And my brain loves that uncertainty, so I tend to thrive. Maybe it's from my time in the lab with elements of uncertainty, where the chess players wilt under elements of uncertainty, and it's again, it's back to our strengths, right? That's something that I'm good at, so I'm gonna go do it. I've   Michael Hingson ** 51:20 always loved Trivial Pursuit. That's always been a fun game that I enjoy playing. I   Scott Hanton ** 51:25 do love Trivial Pursuit. I watch Jeopardy regularly. A funny story, when we moved into our new house in Pennsylvania, it was a great neighborhood. Loved the neighbors there. When we first moved in, they invited my wife and I to a game night. Excellent. We love games. We're going to play Trivial Pursuit. Awesome like Trivial Pursuit. We're going to play as couples. Bad idea, right? Let's play boys against the girls, or, let's say, random draws. No, we're playing as couples. Okay, so we played as couples. Helen and I won every game by a large margin. We were never invited back for game night. Yeah, invited back for lots of other things, but not game night.   Michael Hingson ** 52:06 One of the things that, and I've talked about it with people on this podcast before, is that all too often, when somebody reads a question from a trivial pursuit card, an answer pops in your head, then you went, Oh, that was too easy. That can't be the right answer. So you think about it, and you answer with something else, but invariably, that first answer was always the correct answer.   Scott Hanton ** 52:32 Yes, I'm I have learned to trust my intuition. Yeah. I learned, as a research scientist, that especially in talking to some of my peers, who are very dogmatic, very step by step scientists. And they lay out the 20 steps to that they felt would be successful. And they would do one at a time, one through 20. And that made them happy for me, I do one and two, and then I'd predict where that data led me, and I do experiment number seven, and if it worked, I'm off to eight. And so I they would do what, one step at a time, one to 20, and I'd sort of do 127, 1420, yeah. And that I learned that that intuition was powerful and valuable, and I've learned to trust it. And in my lab career, it served me really well. But also as a manager, it has served me well to trust my intuition, and at least to listen to it. And if I need to analyze it, I can do that, but I'm going to listen to it,   Michael Hingson ** 53:31 and that's the important thing, because invariably, it's going to give you useful information, and it may be telling you not what to do, but still trusting it and listening to it is so important, I've found that a lot over the years,   Scott Hanton ** 53:47 Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book called Blink, where he talks about the power of the subconscious, and his claim is that the subconscious is 100,000 times smarter than our conscious brain, and I think when we are trusting our intuition, we're tapping into that super computer that's in our skulls. If you want to learn more, read blank. It's a great story.   Michael Hingson ** 54:10 I hear you. I agree. How can people learn to be better leaders and managers?   Scott Hanton ** 54:18 So I think it's there's really three normal ways that people do this. One is the power of experiment, right? And I did plenty of that, and I made tons of errors. It's painful. It's irritating, trial and error, but I used to tell people at Intertech that I was the general manager because I'd made the most mistakes, which gave me the most opportunity to learn. It was also partly because a lot of my peers wanted nothing to do with the job. You know, they wanted to be scientists. Another way is we, we get coached and mentored by people around us, and that is awesome if you have good supervisors, and it's tragic if you have bad supervisors, because you don't know any better and you take for granted. That the way it's been done is the way it needs to be done, and that prevents us from being generative leaders and questioning the status quo. So there's problems there, too. And I had both good and bad supervisors during my career. I had some awful, toxic human beings who were my supervisors, who did damage to me, and then I had some brilliant, caring, empathetic people who raised me up and helped me become the leader that I am today. So it's a bit of a crap shoot. The third way is go out and learn it from somebody who's done it right, and that's why we generated the lab manager Academy to try to codify all the mistakes I made and what are the learnings from them? And when I'm talking with learners who are in the program, it's we have a huge positive result feedback on our courses. And what I talk to people about who take our courses is I'm glad you appreciate what we've put together here. That makes me feel good. I'm glad it's helping you. But when these are my mistakes and the answers to my mistakes, when you make mistakes, you need to in the future, go make some courses and teach people what the lessons were from your mistakes and pay it forward. Yeah. So I recommend getting some training.   Michael Hingson ** 56:17 What's the difference between management and leadership?   Scott Hanton ** 56:21 I particularly love a quote from Peter Drucker. So Peter Drucker was a professor in California. You may have heard of him before.   Michael Hingson ** 56:29 I have. I never had the opportunity to meet him, but I read.   Scott Hanton ** 56:34 I didn't either material. I've read his books, and I think he is an insightful human being, yes. So the quote goes like this, management is doing things right. Leadership is doing the right things. So as a technical manager, there's a bunch of things we have to get right. We have to get safety right. We have to get quality right. There's an accuracy and precision that we need to get right for our outcomes and our results. Those are management tasks, but leadership is about doing the right things. And the interesting thing about that definition is it doesn't require a title or a role or any level of authority. So anyone can be a leader if you're consistently doing the right things, you are exhibiting leadership, and that could be from the person sweeping the floors or the person approving the budget, or anyone in between.   Michael Hingson ** 57:33 Yeah, I've heard that quote from him before, and absolutely agree with it. It makes a whole lot of sense.   Scott Hanton ** 57:41 Other definitions that I've seen trying to distinguish management and leadership tend to use the words manage and lead, and I don't like definitions that include the words that they're trying to define. They become circular at some level. This one, I think, is clear about it, what its intention is, and for me, it has worked through my career, and so the separation is valuable. I have authority. I'm the manager. I have accountability to get some stuff right, but anyone can lead, and everyone can lead, and the organization works so much better when it's full of leaders   Michael Hingson ** 58:21 and leaders who are willing to recognize when they bring something to the table, or if someone else can add value in ways that they can't, to be willing to let the other individual take the leadership position for a while.   Scott Hanton ** 58:40 Absolutely, and you know that really comes down to building an environment and a culture that's supportive. And so Amy Edmondson has written extensively on the importance of psychological safety, and that psychological safety hinges on what you just said, right? If the guy who sweeps the floor has an observation about the organization. Do they feel safe to go tell the person in charge that this observation, and if they feel safe, and if that leader is sufficiently vulnerable and humble to listen with curiosity about that observation, then everybody benefits, yeah, and the more safe everyone feels. We think about emotion. Emotional safety is they anyone can bring their best self to work, and psychological safety is they can contribute their ideas and observations with no threat of retaliation, then we have an environment where we're going to get the best out of everybody, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 59:46 which is the way it it really ought to be. And all too often we don't necessarily see it, but that is the way it ought   Scott Hanton ** 59:53 to be. Too many people are worried about credit, or, I don't know, worried about things that I don't see. Yeah, and they waste human potential, right? They they don't open their doors to hire anybody. They they judge people based on what they look like instead of who they are, or they box people in into roles, and don't let them flourish and Excel. And whenever you're doing those kinds of things, you're wasting human potential. And businesses, science and business are too hard to waste human potential. We need to take advantage of everything that people are willing to give. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:33 we've been doing this for quite a while already today. So I'm going to ask as a kind of a last question, what, what advice do you want to leave for people to think about going forward in their lives and in their careers?   Scott Hanton ** 1:00:48 So I was participating in a LinkedIn chat today where a professor was asking the question, what sort of advice would you wish you got when you were 21 Okay, so it was an interesting thread, and there was one contributor to the thread who said something I thought was particularly valuable. And she said, attitude matters. Attitude matters. We can't control what happens to us, but we can control how we deal with it and how we respond, right? And so I think if we can hold our attitude as our accountability, and we can direct our strengths and our talents to applying them against the challenges that the business or the science or the lab or the community faces, and we can go in with some positive attitude and positive desire for for change and improvement, and we can be vulnerable and humble enough to accept other people's ideas and to interact through discussion and healthy debate. Then everything's better. I also like Kelleher his quote he was the co founder of Southwest Airlines, and he said, when you're hiring, hire for attitude, train for skill. Attitude is so important. So I think, understand your attitude. Bring the attitude you want, the attitude you value, the attitude that's that's parallel to your core values. And then communicate to others about their attitude and how it's working or not working for them.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:31 And hopefully, if they have a positive or good enough attitude, they will take that into consideration and grow because of it absolutely   Scott Hanton ** 1:02:41 gives everybody the chance to be the best they can be.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:47 Well, Scott, this has been wonderful. If people want to reach out to you, how can they do that?   Scott Hanton ** 1:02:51 So LinkedIn is great. I've provided Michael my LinkedIn connection. So I would love to have people connect to me on LinkedIn or email. S Hanson at lab manager.com love to have interactions with the folks out there.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:08 Well, I want to thank you for spending so much time. We'll have to do more of this.   Scott Hanton ** 1:03:13 Michael, I really enjoyed it. This was a fun conversation. It was stimulating. You asked good questio

In this conversation we're exited to welcome Alana Lentin back to the show to talk about her new book The New Racial Regime: Recalibrations of White Supremacy, which works with the concept of the racial regime put forth by Cedric Robinson in his book Forgeries of Memory and Meaning. The book features a foreword by Elizabeth Robinson, long time interlocutor, partner in critical media work, and life partner of Cedric Robinson.  We talk about this project which starts with an analysis of the war on so-called Critical Race Theory, and the attendant fascistic agenda, the “whitelash” against Black Studies, and gets deep into zionist counterinsurgency efforts throughout academia, as well as the so-called “war on antisemitism,” and how we make sense of “the processes through which racial colonial rule is ideologically resecured.” It's a really interesting read and I definitely recommend people pick it up. Alana Lentin is a teacher and writer, and identifies as a Jewish European woman who is a settler on Gadigal-Wangal land (Sydney, Australia). Her work focuses on a critical theorization of race, racism and antiracism.  She is a Professor of Cultural and Social Analysis at Western Sydney University. She is the author and editor of multiple books, including Why Race Still Matters and Racism and Anti-Racism in Europe.  More about Dr. Lentin and her work can be found at her website. This also is the first episode that Josh and Jared have recorded together since October of 2023, and it was great to collaborate again on an episode! We hosted with the Sameer Project last week. With the forced starvation of Palestinians in Gaza, it is absolutely critical that we ways to continue getting support their way. We we'll put a link to donate to the Sameer Project and to that conversation in the show description. And of course if you appreciate the work that we do on audio podcasts like this, and through our video feed on Youtube, the best way to support our work is to become a patron show for as little as $1 a month, or support us through our BuyMeACoffee page. Our music as always is courtesy of Televangel Correction: in the interview Jared said it was the "National Federation of Teachers" which is not accurate (or a thing). It was the National Educators Association, however that vote from the a majority of the 7,000 delegates of the largest US teacher's union was rejected by the union's board. Read more here. Now here is our conversation with Alana Lentin on The New Racial Regime The title of the episode is a reference to this tweet. Source of the image in the thumbnail. Some References: Dylan Rodríguez on Lexical Warfare & Counterinsurgency "Stop Asian Hate" as Zionist Policing with Dylan Rodríguez "Rosa Luxemburg and the Primitive Accumulation of Whiteness" by Siddhant Issar, Rachel H. Brown, and John McMahon The War on Anti-Semitism with Anna-Esther Younes Institute for the Critical Study of Zionism Anti-Zionism, Anti-Semitism, Decolonization & Islamophobia with Alana Lentin (MAKC episode) Prior audio episodes with Alana Lentin

In this episode, Sam speaks with Patrick Long of InnoSearch.ai and Mark Riccobono of the NFB about their new partnership to improve digital accessibility for blind users. Rather than focusing on basic compliance, the conversation explores true usability—addressing issues like unlabeled buttons and missing alt text. They emphasize the need for blind-led innovation and meaningful collaboration with the community. The NFB's long-standing advocacy efforts are discussed, along with practical steps tech companies can take to create inclusive products. A new checkout feature also lets customers support the NFB by rounding up purchases, blending commerce with accessibility-focused advocacy. blind tech, assistive technology, digital accessibility, InnoSearch.ai, National Federation of the Blind, NFB partnership, screen reader usability, blind advocacy, accessible shopping, inclusive design, blind podcast, low vision tools#BlindLife #AccessibilityMatters #AssistiveTech #BlindCommunity #InnoSearch #NFB #DigitalInclusion #BlindAdvocacy #AccessibleShopping #InclusiveTechnology

In January, 2022 today's guest, Mike Paciello, made his first appearance on Unstoppable Mindset in Episode 19. It is not often that most of us have the opportunity and honor to meet a real trendsetter and pioneer much less for a second time. However, today, we get to spend more time with Mike, and we get to talk about not only the concepts around web accessibility, but we also discuss the whole concept of inclusion and how much progress we have made much less how much more work needs to be done.   Mike Paciello has been a fixture in the assistive technology world for some thirty years. I have known of him for most of that time, but our paths never crossed until September of 2021 when we worked together to help create some meetings and sessions around the topic of website accessibility in Washington D.C.   As you will hear, Mike began his career as a technical writer for Digital Equipment Corporation, an early leader in the computer manufacturing industry. I won't tell you Mike's story here. What I will say is that although Mike is fully sighted and thus does not use much of the technology blind and low vision persons use, he really gets it. He fully understands what Inclusion is all about and he has worked and continues to work to promote inclusion and access for all throughout the world. As Mike and I discuss, making technology more inclusive will not only help persons with disabilities be more involved in society, but people will discover that much of the technology we use can make everyone's life better. We talk about a lot of the technologies being used today to make websites more inclusive including the use of AI and how AI can and does enhance inclusion efforts.   It is no accident that this episode is being released now. This episode is being released on July 25 to coincide with the 35th anniversary of the signing of the Americans With Disabilities Act which was signed on July 26, 1990. HAPPY BIRTHDAY ADA!   After you experience our podcast with Mike, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at michaelhi@accessibe.com to tell me of your observations. Thanks.     About the Guest:   Mike Paciello is the Chief Accessibility Officer at AudioEye, Inc., a digital accessibility company. Prior to joining AudioEye, Mike founded WebABLE/WebABLE.TV, which delivers news about the disability and accessibility technology market. Mike authored the first book on web accessibility and usability, “Web Accessibility for People with Disabilities” and, in 1997, Mr. Paciello received recognition from President Bill Clinton for his work in the creation of World Wide Web Consortium's (W3C) Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI). He has served as an advisor to the US Access Board and other federal agencies since 1992.   Mike has served as an international leader, technologist, and authority in emerging technology, accessibility, usability, and electronic publishing. Mike is the former Founder of The Paciello Group (TPG), a world-renowned software accessibility consultancy acquired in 2017 by Vispero. Ways to connect with Mike:   mpaciello@webable.com Michael.paciello@audioeye.com Mikepaciello@gmail.com     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion diversity and the unexpected meet. Normally, our guests deal with the unexpected, which is anything that doesn't have to do with inclusion or diversity. Today, however, we get to sort of deal with both. We have a guest who actually was a guest on our podcast before he was in show 19 that goes all the way back to January of 2022, his name is Mike Paciello. He's been very involved in the whole internet and accessibility movement and so on for more than 30 years, and I think we're going to have a lot of fun chatting about what's going on in the world of accessibility and the Internet and and, you know, and but we won't probably get into whether God is a man or a woman, but that's okay, God is actually both, so we don't have to worry about that. But anyway, Mike, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Mike Paciello ** 02:21 Yeah, Hey, Mike, thanks a lot. I can't believe has it really been already since today, six years since the last time I came on this? No, three, 320, 22 Oh, 2022, I for whatever I 2019 Okay, three years sounds a little bit more realistic, but still, it's been a long time. Thank you for having me. It's, it's, it's great to be here. And obviously, as you know, a lot of things have changed in my life since then. But, yeah, very   Michael Hingson ** 02:46 cool. Well, you were in show number 19. And I'm not sure what number this is going to be, but it's going to be above 360 so it's been a while. Amazing, amazing, unstoppable, unstoppable. That's it. We got to keep it going. And Mike and I have been involved in a few things together, in, in later, in, I guess it was in 20 when we do the M enabling Summit, that was 2021 wasn't it? Yeah, I think it was, I think it was the year before we did the podcast, yeah, podcast, 2021 right? So we were in DC, and we both worked because there was a group that wanted to completely condemn the kinds of technologies that accessibe and other companies use. Some people call it overlays. I'm not sure that that's totally accurate today, but we we worked to get them to not do what they originally intended to do, but rather to explore it in a little bit more detail, which I think was a lot more reasonable to do. So we've, we've had some fun over the years, and we see each other every so often, and here we are again today. So yeah, I'm glad you're here. Well, tell us a little about well, and I guess what we'll do is do some stuff that we did in 2022 tell us about kind of the early Mike, growing up and all that and what eventually got you into dealing with all this business of web accessibility and such. Yeah, thank you.   Mike Paciello ** 04:08 You know, I've tried to short this, shorten this story 100 times. Oh, don't worry. See if I get let's see if I can keep it succinct and and for the folks out there who understand verbosity and it's in its finest way for screen reader users, I'll try not to be verbose. I already am being   Michael Hingson ** 04:28 intermediate levels fine.   Mike Paciello ** 04:30 I came into this entire field as a technical writer trying to solve a problem that I kind of stumbled into doing some volunteer work for the debt the company that I then then worked for, a Digital Equipment Corporation, a software company, DEC software hardware company, back then, right back in the early 80s. And as a technical writer, I started learning at that time what was called Gen code. Eventually that morphed in. To what Goldfarb, Charles Goldfarb at IBM, called SGML, or standard, Generalized Markup Language, and that really became the predecessor, really gave birth to what we see on the web today, to HTML and the web markup languages. That's what they were, except back then, they were markup languages for print publications. So we're myself and a lot of colleagues and friends, people probably here, I'm sure, at bare minimum, recognized named George Kercher. George and I really paired together, worked together, ended up creating an international steer with a group of other colleagues and friends called the icad 22 which is 22 stands for the amount of elements in that markup language. And it became the adopted standard accessibility standard for the American Association of Publishers, and they published that became official. Eventually it morphed into what we today call, you know, accessible web development. It was the first instance by that was integrated into the HTML specification, I think officially, was HTML 3.1 3.2 somewhere in there when it was formally adopted and then announced in 1997 and at the World Wide Web Conference. That's really where my activity in the web began. So I was working at DEC, but I was doing a lot of volunteer work at MIT, which is where the W 3c was located at that particular time. And Tim Bursley, who a lot of people i Sir, I'm sure, know, the inventor of the web, led the effort at that time, and a few other folks that I work with, and.da Jim Miller, a few other folks. And we were, well, I wasn't specifically approached. Tim was approached by Vice President Gore and eventually President Clinton at that time to see if we could come up with some sort of technical standard for accessibility. And Tim asked if I'd like to work on it myself. Danielle, Jim, a few others, we did, and we came up that first initial specification and launched it as part of the Web Accessibility Initiative, which we created in 1997 from there, my career just took off. I went off did a couple of small companies that I launched, you know, my namesake company, the Paciello Group, or TPG, now called TPG IGI, yeah, yeah, which was acquired by vector capital, or this bureau back in 2017 so it's hard to believe that's already almost 10 years ago. No, yeah. And I've been walking in, working in the software, web accessibility field, usability field, writing fields, you know, for some pretty close to 45 years. It's 2025 40 years, I mean, and I started around 1984 I think it was 8384 when all this first   Michael Hingson ** 07:59 started. Wow, so clearly, you've been doing it for a while and understand a lot of the history of it. So how overall has the whole concept of web accessibility changed over the years, not only from a from a coding standpoint, but how do you think it's really changed when it comes to being addressed by the public and companies and so on.   Mike Paciello ** 08:26 That's a great question. I'd certainly like to be more proactive and more positive about it, but, but let me be fair, if you compare today and where web accessibility resides, you know, in the in the business value proposition, so to speak, and list the priorities of companies and corporations. You know, fortune 1000 fortune 5000 call whatever you whatever you want. Accessibility. Is there people? You could say section five way you could say the Web Accessibility Initiative, WCAG, compliance, and by and large, particularly technology driven, digital economy driven businesses, they know what it is. They don't know how to do it. Very rarely do they know how to do it. And even the ones that know how to do it don't really do it very well. So it kind of comes down to the 8020, rule, right? You're a business. Whatever kind of business you are, you're probably in more online presence than ever before, and so a lot of your digital properties will come under you know the laws that mandate usability and accessibility for people with disabilities today that having been said and more and more people know about it than ever before, certainly from the time that I started back in the you know, again, in the early, mid 80s, to where we are today. It's night and day. But in terms of prioritization, I don't know. I think what happens quite often is business value proposition. Decisions get in the way. Priorities get in the way of what a business in, what its core business are, what they're trying to accomplish, who they're trying to sell, sell to. They still view the disability market, never mind the blind and low vision, you know, market alone as a niche market. So they don't make the kind of investors that I, I believe that they could, you know, there's certainly, there are great companies like like Microsoft and and Google, Amazon, Apple, you know, a lot of these companies, you know, have done some Yeoman work at that level, but it's nowhere near where it should be. It just absolutely isn't. And so from that standpoint, in where I envision things, when I started this career was when I was in my 20 somethings, and now I'm over now I'm over 60. Well over 60. Yeah, I expected a lot more in, you know, in an internet age, much, much more.   Michael Hingson ** 11:00 Yeah, yeah. Well, it's it's really strange that so much has happened and yet so much hasn't happened. And I agree with you, there's been a lot of visibility for the concept of accessibility and inclusion and making the the internet a better place, but it is so unfortunate that most people don't know how to how to do anything with it. Schools aren't really teaching it. And more important than even teaching the coding, from from my perspective, looking at it more philosophically, what we don't tend to see are people really recognizing the value of disabilities, and the value that the market that people with disabilities bring to the to the world is significant. I mean, the Center for Disease Control talks about the fact that they're like up to 25% of all Americans have some sort of disability. Now I take a different approach. Actually. I don't know whether you've read my article on it, but I believe everyone on the in the in the world has a disability, and the reality is, most people are light dependent, but that's as much a disability as blindness. Except that since 1878 when Thomas Edison invented the light bulb. We have focused nothing short of trying to do everything we can to improve light on demand for the last 147 years. And so the disability is mostly covered up, but it's still there.   Mike Paciello ** 12:37 You know, yeah, and I did read that article, and I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, I personally think, and I actually have my own blog coming out, and probably later this month might be early, early July, where I talk about the fact that accessibility okay and technology really has been all along. And I love the fact that you call, you know, you identified the, you know, the late 1800s there, when Edison did the the light bulb, Alexander Graham Bell came up with, you know, the telephone. All of those adventures were coming about. But accessibility to people with disabilities, regardless of what their disability is, has always been a catalyst for innovation. That was actually supposed to be the last one I was going to make tonight. Now it's my first point because, because I think it is exactly as you said, Mike, I think that people are not aware. And when I say people, I mean the entire human population, I don't think that we are aware of the history of how, how, because of, I'm not sure if this is the best word, but accommodating users, accommodating people with disabilities, in whatever way, the science that goes behind that design architectural to the point of development and release, oftentimes, things that were done behalf of people with disabilities, or for People with disabilities, resulted in a fundamental, how's this for? For an interesting term, a fundamental alteration right to any other you know, common, and I apologize for the tech, tech, tech language, user interface, right, right? Anything that we interact with has been enhanced because of accessibility, because of people saying, hey, if we made this grip a little bit larger or stickier, we'll call it so I can hold on to it or softer for a person that's got fine motor dexterity disabilities, right? Or if we made a, you know, a web browser, which, of course, we have such that a blind individual, a low vision individual, can adjust the size of this, of the images and the fonts and things like that on a web page, they could do that unknown. Well, these things now. As we well know, help individuals without disabilities. Well, I'm not much, right, and I, again, I'm not speaking as a person beyond your characterization that, hey, look, we are all imperfect. We all have disabilities. And that is, that is absolutely true. But beyond that, I wear glasses. That's it. I do have a little hearing loss too. But you know, I'm finding myself more and more, for example, increasing the size of text. In fact, my note, yes, I increase them to, I don't know they're like, 18 point, just so that it's easier to see. But that is a common thing for every human being, just like you said.   Michael Hingson ** 15:36 Well, the reality is that so many tools that we use today come about. And came about because of people with disabilities. Peggy Chung Curtis Chung's wife, known as the blind history lady, and one of the stories that she told on her first visit to unstoppable mindset, which, by the way, is episode number five. I remember that Peggy tells the story of the invention of the typewriter, which was invented for a blind countist, because she wanted to be able to communicate with her lover without her husband knowing about it, and she didn't want to dictate things and so on. She wanted to be able to create a document and seal it, and that way it could be delivered to the lever directly. And the typewriter was the result of   Mike Paciello ** 16:20 that? I didn't know that. I will definitely go back. I just wrote it down. I wrote down a note that was episode number five, yeah, before with Curtis a couple of times, but obviously a good friend of ours, yeah, but I yeah, that's, that's, that's awesome.   Michael Hingson ** 16:37 Well, and look at, I'll tell you one of the things that really surprises me. So Apple was going to get sued because they weren't making any of their products accessible. And before the lawsuit was filed, they came along and they said, we'll fix it. And they did make and it all started to a degree with iTunes U but also was the iPhone and the iPod and so on. But they they, they did the work. Mostly. They embedded a screen reader called Voiceover in all of their operating systems. They did make iTunes you available. What really surprises me, though is that I don't tend to see perhaps some things that they could do to make voiceover more attractive to drivers so they don't have to look at the screen when a phone call comes in or whatever. And that they could be doing some things with VoiceOver to make it more usable for sighted people in a lot of instances. And I just don't, I don't see any emphasis on that, which is really surprising to me.   Mike Paciello ** 17:38 Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, there are a lot of use cases there that you go for. I think Mark Rico would certainly agree with you in terms of autonomous driving for the blind, right? Sure that too. But yeah, I definitely agree and, and I know the guy that the architect voiceover and develop voiceover for Apple and, boy, why can I think of his last name? I know his first name. First name is Mike. Is with Be My Eyes now and in doing things at that level. But I will just say one thing, not to correct you, but Apple had been in the accessibility business long before voice over Alan Brightman and Gary mulcher were instrumental towards convincing, you know, jobs of the importance of accessibility to people with disabilities,   Michael Hingson ** 18:31 right? But they weren't doing anything to make products accessible for blind people who needed screen readers until that lawsuit came along. Was   Mike Paciello ** 18:40 before screen readers? Yeah, that was before,   Michael Hingson ** 18:43 but they did it. Yeah. The only thing I wish Apple would do in that regard, that they haven't done yet, is Apple has mandates and requirements if you're going to put an app in the App Store. And I don't know whether it's quite still true, but it used to be that if your app had a desktop or it looked like a Windows desktop, they wouldn't accept it in the app store. And one of the things that surprises me is that they don't require that app developers make sure that their products are usable with with VoiceOver. And the reality is that's a it doesn't need to be a really significantly moving target. For example, let's say you have an app that is dealing with displaying star charts or maps. I can't see the map. I understand that, but at least voiceover ought to give me the ability to control what goes on the screen, so that I can have somebody describe it, and I don't have to spend 15 or 20 minutes describing my thought process, but rather, I can just move things around on the screen to get to where we need to go. And I wish Apple would do a little bit more in that regard.   Mike Paciello ** 19:52 Yeah, I think that's a great a great thought and a great challenge, if, between me and you. Yeah, I think it goes back to what I said before, even though we both see how accessibility or accommodating users with disabilities has led to some of the most incredible innovations. I mean, the Department of Defense, for years, would integrate people with disabilities in their user testing, they could better help, you know, military soldiers, things like that, assimilate situations where there was no hearing, there was they were immobile, they couldn't see all, you know, all of these things that were natural. You know, user environments or personas for people with disabilities. So they led to these kind of, you know, incredible innovations, I would tell you, Mike, I think you know this, it's because the business value proposition dictates otherwise.   Michael Hingson ** 20:55 Yeah, and, well, I guess I would change that slightly and say that people think that the business proposition does but it may very well be that they would find that there's a lot more value in doing it if they would really open up their minds to looking at it differently. It's   Mike Paciello ** 21:10 kind of, it's kind of like, it's tough. It's kind of like, if I could use this illustration, so to speak, for those who may not be religiously inclined, but you know, it's, it's like prophecy. Most people, you don't know whether or not prophecy is valid until years beyond, you know, years after. And then you could look back at time and say, See, it was all along. These things, you know, resulted in a, me, a major paradigm shift in the way that we do or don't do things. And I think that's exactly what you're saying. You know, if, if people would really look at the potential of what technologies like, you know, a voice over or, as you know, a good friend of mine said, Look, we it should be screen readers. It should be voice IO interfaces, right? That every human can use and interact with regardless. That's what we're really talking about. There's   Michael Hingson ** 22:10 a big discussion going on some of the lists now about the meta, Ray Ban, glasses, and some of the things that it doesn't do or that they don't do well, that they should like. It's really difficult to get the meta glasses to read completely a full page. I think there are ways that people have now found to get it to do that, but there are things like that that it that that don't happen. And again, I think it gets back to what you're saying is the attitude is, well, most people aren't going to need that. Well, the reality is, how do you know and how do you know what they'll need until you offer options. So one of my favorite stories is when I worked for Kurzweil a long time ago, some people called one day and they wanted to come and see a new talking computer terminal that that Ray and I and others developed, and they came up, and it turns out, they were with one of those initial organizations out of Langley, Virginia, the CIA. And what they wanted to do was to use the map the the terminal connected to their computers to allow them to move pointers on a map and not have to watch the map or the all of the map while they were doing it, but rather, the computer would verbalize where the pointer was, and then they could they could move it around and pin a spot without having to actually look at the screen, because the way their machine was designed, it was difficult to do that. You know, the reality is that most of the technologies that we need and that we use and can use could be used by so much, so many more people, if people would just really look at it and think about it, but, but you're right, they don't.   Mike Paciello ** 24:04 You know, it's, of course, raise a raise another good friend of mine. We both having in common. I work with him. I been down his office a few, more than few times, although his Boston office, anyway, I think he's, I'm not sure he's in Newton. He's in Newton. Yeah. Is he still in Newton? Okay. But anyway, it reminded me of something that happened in a similar vein, and that was several years ago. I was at a fast forward forward conference, future forward conference, and a company, EMC, who absorbed by Dell, I think, right, yes, where they all are. So there I was surprised that when that happened. But hey, yeah, yeah, I was surprised that compact bought depth, so that's okay, yeah, right. That HP bought count, right? That whole thing happened. But um, their chief science, chief scientist, I think he was a their CSO chief scientist, Doc. Came up and made this presentation. And basically the presentation was using voice recognition. They had been hired by the NSA. So it was a NSA right to use voice recognition in a way where they would recognize voices and then record those voices into it, out the output the transcript of that right text, text files, and feed them back to, you know, the NSA agents, right? So here's the funny part of that story goes up i i waited he gave his presentation. This is amazing technology, and what could it was like, 99% accurate in terms of not just recognizing American, English speaking people, but a number of different other languages, in dialects. And the guy who gave the presentation, I actually knew, because he had been a dec for many years. So in the Q and A Part I raised by hand. I got up there. He didn't recognize it a few years had gone by. And I said, you know, this is amazing technology. We could really use this in the field that I work in. And he said, Well, how's that? And I said, you know, voice recognition and outputting text would allow us to do now this is probably 2008 2009 somewhere in that area, would allow us to do real time, automated transcription for the Deaf, Captioning. And he looks at me and he he says, Do I know you? This is through a live audience. I said. I said, Yeah, Mark is it was. Mark said, So Mike gas yellow. He said, you're the only guy in town that I know that could turn a advanced, emerging technology into something for people with disabilities. I can't believe it. So that was, that was, but there was kind of the opposite. It was a technology they were focused on making this, you know, this technology available for, you know, government, obviously covert reasons that if they were using it and applying it in a good way for people with disabilities, man, we'd have been much faster, much further along or even today, right? I mean, it's being done, still not as good, not as good as that, as I saw. But that just goes to show you what, what commercial and government funding can do when it's applied properly?   Michael Hingson ** 27:41 Well, Dragon, naturally speaking, has certainly come a long way since the original Dragon Dictate. But there's still errors, there's still things, but it does get better, but I hear exactly what you're saying, and the reality is that we don't tend to think in broad enough strokes for a lot of the things that we do, which is so unfortunate,   Mike Paciello ** 28:03 yeah? I mean, I've had an old saying that I've walked around for a long time. I should have, I should make a baseball cap, whether something or T shirt. And it simply was, think accessibility, yeah, period. If, if, if we, organizations, people, designers, developers, architects, usability, people, QA, people. If everybody in the, you know, in the development life cycle was thinking about accessibility, or accessibility was integrated, when we say accessibility, we're talking about again, for users with disabilities, if that became part of, if not the functional catalyst, for technology. Man, we'd have been a lot further along in the quote, unquote value chains than we are today.   Michael Hingson ** 28:46 One of the big things at least, that Apple did do was they built voiceover into their operating system, so anybody who buys any Apple device today automatically has redundancy here, but access to accessibility, right? Which, which is really the way it ought to be. No offense to vispero and jaws, because they're they're able to fill the gap. But still, if Microsoft had truly devoted the time that they should have to narrate her at the beginning. We might see a different kind of an architecture today.   Mike Paciello ** 29:26 You know, I so I want to, by the way, the person that invented that wrote that code is Mike shabanik. That's his name I was thinking about. So Mike, if you're listening to this guy, just hi from two others. And if he's not, he should be, yeah, yeah, exactly right from two other mics. But so let me ask you this question, because I legitimately can't remember this, and have had a number of discussions with Mike about this. So VoiceOver is native to the US, right?   Michael Hingson ** 29:56 But no, well, no to to the to the to the. Products, but not just the US. No,   Mike Paciello ** 30:02 no, I said, OS, yes, it's native to OS, yeah, right. It's native that way, right? But doesn't it still use an off screen model for producing or, you know, translate the transformation of, you know, on screen to voice.   Michael Hingson ** 30:27 I'm not sure that's totally true. Go a little bit deeper into that for me.   Mike Paciello ** 30:34 Well, I mean, so NVDA and jaws use this off screen model, right, which is functionally, they grab, will they grab some content, or whatever it is, push it to this, you know, little black box, do all those translations, you know, do all the transformation, and then push it back so it's renderable to a screen reader. Okay, so that's this off screen model that is transparent to the users, although now you know you can get into it and and tweak it and work with it right, right? I recall when Mike was working on the original design of of nary, excuse me, a voiceover, and he had called me, and I said, Are you going to continue with the notion of an off screen model? And he said, Yeah, we are. And I said, Well, when you can build something that's more like what TV Raman has built into Emacs, and it works integral to the actual OS, purely native. Call me because then I'm interested in, but now that was, you know, 1520, years ago, right? I mean, how long has voiceover been around,   Michael Hingson ** 31:51 since 2007   Mike Paciello ** 31:54 right? So, yeah, 20 years ago, right? Just shy of 20 years, 18 years. So I don't know. I honestly don't know. I'm   Michael Hingson ** 32:02 not totally sure, but I believe that it is, but I can, you know, we'll have to, we'll have to look into that.   Mike Paciello ** 32:08 If anyone in the audience is out there looking at you, get to us before we find out. Let us we'll find out at the NFB   Michael Hingson ** 32:12 convention, because they're going to be a number of Apple people there. We can certainly ask, there   Mike Paciello ** 32:17 you go. That's right, for sure. James Craig is bound to be there. I can ask him and talk to him about that for sure. Yep, so anyway,   Michael Hingson ** 32:23 but I think, I think it's a very it's a valid point. And you know, the the issue is that, again, if done right and app developers are doing things right there, there needs to, there ought to be a way that every app has some level of accessibility that makes it more available. And the reality is, people, other than blind people use some of these technologies as well. So we're talking about voice input. You know, quadriplegics, for example, who can't operate a keyboard will use or a mouse can use, like a puff and zip stick to and and Dragon to interact with a computer and are successful at doing it. The reality is, there's a whole lot more opportunities out there than people think. Don't   Mike Paciello ** 33:11 I agree with that. I'm shaking my head up and down Mike and I'm telling you, there is, I mean, voice recognition alone. I can remember having a conversation with Tony vitality, one of the CO inventors of the deck talk. And that goes all the way back into the, you know, into the early 90s, about voice recognition and linguistics and what you know, and I know Kurzweil did a lot of working with Terry right on voice utterances and things like that. Yeah, yeah. There's, there's a wide open window of opportunity there for study and research that could easily be improved. And as you said, and this is the point, it doesn't just improve the lives of the blind or low vision. It improves the lives of a number of different types of Persona, disability persona types, but it would certainly create a pathway, a very wide path, for individuals, users without disabilities, in a number of different life scenarios.   Michael Hingson ** 34:10 Yeah, and it's amazing how little sometimes that's done. I had the pleasure a few years ago of driving a Tesla down Interstate 15 out here in California. Glad I wasn't there. You bigot, you know, the co pilot system worked. Yeah, you know, I just kept my hands on the wheel so I didn't very much, right? Not have any accidents. Back off now it worked out really well, but, but here's what's really interesting in that same vehicle, and it's something that that I find all too often is is the case if I were a passenger sitting in the front seat, there's so much that I as a passenger don't have access to that other passenger. Do radios now are mostly touchscreen right, which means and they don't build in the features that would make the touchscreen system, which they could do, accessible. The Tesla vehicle is incredibly inaccessible. And there's for a guy who's so innovative, there's no reason for that to be that way. And again, I submit that if they truly make the product so a blind person could use it. Think of how much more a sighted person who doesn't have to take their eyes off the road could use the same technologies.   Mike Paciello ** 35:35 You know, Mike, again, you and I are on the same page. I mean, imagine these guys are supposed to be creative and imaginative and forward thinking, right? Could you? Can you imagine a better tagline than something along the lines of Tesla, so user friendly that a blind person can drive it? Yeah? I mean this is, have you heard or seen, you know, metaphorically speaking, or that's okay, a an advertisement or PR done by any, any company, because they're all, all the way across the board, that hasn't featured what it can do to enhance lives of people with disabilities. Where it wasn't a hit. I mean, literally, it was, yeah, you see these commercials played over and over to Apple, Microsoft, Emma, I see McDonald's, Walmart. I mean, I could just name, name the one after another. Really, really outstanding. Salesforce has done it. Just incredible. They would do it, yeah. I mean, there is there any more human centric message than saying, Look what we've built and designed we're releasing to the masses and everyone, anyone, regardless of ability, can use it. Yeah, that, to me, is that's, I agree that's a good route, right for marketing and PR, good,   Michael Hingson ** 37:03 yeah. And yet they don't, you know, I see commercials like about one of the one of the eye injections, or whatever Bobby is, Mo or whatever it is. And at the beginning, the woman says, I think I'm losing sight of the world around me. You know that's all about, right? It's eyesight and nothing else. And I appreciate, I'm all for people keeping their eyesight and doing what's necessary. But unfortunately, all too often, we do that at the detriment of of other people, which is so unfortunate.   Mike Paciello ** 37:39 Yeah, you know again, not to, not to get off the subject, but one of my favorite books is rethinking competitive advantage, by Ram Sharon. I don't know if you know know him, but the guy is one of my heroes in terms of just vision and Business and Technology. And in this, this book, he wrote this a couple of years ago. He said this one this is his first rule of competition in the digital age. The number one rule was simply this, a personalized consumer experience, key to exponential growth. That's exactly you and I are talking about personally. I want to see interfaces adapt to users, rather than what we have today, which is users having to adapt to the interface.   Michael Hingson ** 38:32 Yeah, and it would make so much sense to do so. I hope somebody out there is listening and will maybe take some of this to heart, because if they do it right, they can have a huge market in no time at all, just because they show they care. You know, Nielsen Company did a survey back in 2016 where they looked at a variety of companies and consumers and so on. And if I recall the numbers right, they decided that people with disabilities are 35% more likely to continue to work with and shop, for example, at companies that really do what they can to make their websites and access to their products accessible, as opposed to not. And that's that's telling. It's so very telling. But we don't see people talking about that nearly like we should   Mike Paciello ** 39:20 you talk about a business value proposition. There is bullet proof that where you are leaving money on the table, yep, and a lot of it, yeah, exactly. We're not talking about 1000s or hundreds of 1000s. We're talking about billions and trillions, in some instances, not an exaggeration by any stretch of the imagination, very, very simple math. I had this conversation a couple years ago with the CEO of Pearson. At that time, he's retired, but, you know, I told him, if you spent $1 for every person that it was in the world with. Disability, you're, you're, you're talking about 1/4 of the population, right? It's simple math, simple math,   Michael Hingson ** 40:08 but people still won't do it. I mean, we taught you to mention section 508, before with the whole issue of web access, how much of the government has really made their websites accessible, even though it's the law?   Mike Paciello ** 40:19 Yeah, three years, three or four years ago, they did a study, and they found out that the good that every federal agency, most of the federal agencies, were not even keeping up thinking with reporting of the status, of where they were, and yet that was written right into the five way law. They were mandated to do it, and they still did do   Michael Hingson ** 40:37 it. We haven't, you know, the whole Americans with Disabilities Act. Finally, the Department of Justice said that the internet is a place of business, but still, it's not written in the law. And of course, we only see about 3% of all websites that tend to have any level of access. And there's no reason for that. It's not that magical. And again, I go back to what do we do to get schools and those who teach people how to code to understand the value of putting in accessibility right from the outset?   Mike Paciello ** 41:10 Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. I think this is what Kate sanka is trying to do with with Teach access. In fact, you know, again, my company, TPG was one of the founding companies have teach access back again, 10 years ago, when it first started. But that's where it starts. I mean, they're, they're pretty much focused on post secondary, university education, but I could tell you on a personal level, I was speaking at my kids grade school, elementary school, because they were already using laptops and computers back then it starts. Then you've got to build a mindset. You've got to build it we you've heard about the accessibility, maturity models coming out of the W, 3c, and in I, double AP. What that speaks to fundamentally, is building a culture within your corporate organization that is think accessibility as a think accessibility mindset, that it is woven into the fiber of every business line, in every technology, software development life cycle, all of the contributors at that level, from A to Z. But if you don't build it into the culture, it's not going to happen. So I would love to see a lot more being done at that level. But yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it's a hero. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:34 we're, we're left out of the conversation so much. Yeah, yeah, totally. So you, you sold TPG, and you then formed, or you had web able and then able Docs.   Mike Paciello ** 42:48 So what web able came out was a carve out, one of two carve outs that I had from when I sold TPG. The other was open access technologies, which which eventually was sold to another accessibility company primarily focused on making documentation accessible to meet the WCAG and other standards requirements and web able I carved out. It's been a kind of a hobby of mine now, for since I sold TPG, I'm still working on the back end, ironically, from the get go, so we're talking, you know, again, eight years ago, I had built machine learning and AI into it. From then back then, I did so that what it does is it very simply, goes out and collects 1000s and 1000s of articles as it relates to technology, people with disabilities, and then cleans them up and post them to web able.com I've got a lot more playing for it, but that's in a nutshell. That's what it does. And I don't we do some we do some QA review to make sure that the cleanup in terms of accessibility and the articles are are properly formatted and are accessible. We use the web aim API, but yeah, works like magic. Works like clockwork, and that's got aI uses IBM Watson AI built into it. Yeah, enable docs was abledocs was, how should I say this in a nice way, abledocs was a slight excursion off of my main route. It can work out. I wish it had. It had a lot of potential, much like open access technologies, but they both suffered from owners who really, really not including myself, who just didn't have good vision and in lack humility,   Michael Hingson ** 44:43 yeah. How's that? There you go. Well, so not to go political or anything, but AI in general is interesting, and I know that there have been a lot of debates over the last few years about artificial. Intelligence and helping to make websites accessible. There are several companies like AudioEye, user way, accessibe and so on that to one degree or another, use AI. What? What? So in general, what do you think about AI and how it's going to help deal with or not, the whole issue of disabilities and web access,   Mike Paciello ** 45:22 yeah, and we're going to set aside Neil Jacobs thoughts on how he sees it in the future, right? Although I have to tell you, he gave me some things to think about, so we'll just set that to to the side. So I think what AI offers today is something that I thought right away when it started to see the, you know, the accessibes, the user ways, the audio, eyes, and all the other companies kind of delving into it, I always saw potential to how's this remediate a fundamental problem or challenge, let's not call it a problem, a challenge that we were otherwise seeing in the professional services side of that equation around web accessibility, right? So you get experts who use validation tools and other tools, who know about code. Could go in and they know and they use usability, they use user testing, and they go in and they can tell you what you need to do to make your digital properties right, usable and accessible. People with disabilities, all well and good. That's great. And believe me, I had some of the best people, if not the best people in the world, work for me at one time. However, there are a couple of things it could not do in it's never going to do. Number one, first and foremost, from my perspective, it can't scale. It cannot scale. You can do some things at, you know, in a large way. For example, if, if a company is using some sort of, you know, CMS content management system in which their entire sites, you know, all their sites, all their digital properties, you know, are woven into templates, and those templates are remediated. So that cuts down a little bit on the work. But if you go into companies now, it's not like they're limited to two or three templates. Now they've got, you know, department upon department upon department, everybody's got a different template. So even those are becoming very vos, very verbose and very plentiful. So accessibility as a manual effort doesn't really scale well. And if it does, even if it could, it's not fast enough, right? So that's what AI does, AI, coupled with automation, speeds up that process and delivers a much wider enterprise level solution. Now again, AI automation is not, is not a whole, is not a holistic science. You know, it's not a silver bullet. David Marathi likes to use the term, what is he? He likes the gold standard. Well, from his perspective, and by the way, David Marathi is CEO of audio. Eye is a combination of automation AI in expert analysis, along with the use of the integration of user testing and by user testing, it's not just personas, but it's also compatibility with the assistive technologies that people with disabilities use. Now, when you do that, you've got something that you could pattern after a standard software development life cycle, environment in which you integrate all of these things. So if you got a tool, you integrate it there. If you've got, you know, a digital accessibility platform which does all this automation, AI, right, which, again, this is the this is a forester foresters take on the the the daps, as they calls it. And not really crazy about that, but that's what they are. Digital Accessibility platforms. It allows us to scale and scale at costs that are much lower, at speeds that are much faster, and it's just a matter of like any QA, you've got to check your work, and you've got it, you can't count on that automation being absolute. We know for a fact that right now, at best, we're going to be able to get 35 to 40% accuracy, some claim, larger different areas. I'm still not convinced of that, but the fact of the matter is, it's like anything else. Technology gets better as it goes, and we'll see improvements over time periods.   Michael Hingson ** 49:49 So here's here's my thought, yeah, let's say you use AI in one of the products that's out there. And I. You go to a website and you include it, and it reasonably well makes the website 50% more usable and accessible than it was before. I'm just, I just threw out that number. I know it's random. Go ahead, Yep, yeah, but let's say it does that. The reality is that means that it's 50% that the web developers, the web coders, don't have to do because something else is dealing with it. But unfortunately, their mentality is not to want to deal with that because they also fear it. But, you know, I remember back in the mid 1980s I started a company because I went off and tried to find a job and couldn't find one. So I started a company with a couple of other people, where we sold early PC based CAD systems to architects, right? And we had AutoCAD versus CAD. Another one called point line, which was a three dimensional system using a y cap solid modeling board that took up two slots in your PC. So it didn't work with all PCs because we didn't have enough slots. But anyway, right, right, right. But anyway, when I brought architects in and we talked about what it did and we showed them, many of them said, I'll never use that. And I said, why? Well, it does work, and that's not the question. But the issue is, we charge by the time, and so we take months to sometimes create designs and projects, right? And so we can't lose that revenue. I said, you're looking at it all wrong. Think about it this way, somebody gives you a job, you come back and you put it in the CAD system. You go through all the iterations it takes, let's just say, two weeks. Then you call your customer in. You use point line, and you can do a three dimensional walk through and fly through. You can even let them look out the window and see what there is and all that they want to make changes. They tell you the changes. You go off and you make the changes. And two weeks later, now it's a month, you give them their finished product, all the designs, all the plots and all that, all done, and you charge them exactly the same price you were going to charge them before. Now you're not charging for your time, you're charging for your expertise, right? And I think that same model still holds true that the technology, I think most people will agree that it is not perfect, but there are a lot of things that it can do. Because the reality is, the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, are all things that can be defined with computer code, whether it necessarily does it all well with AI or not, is another story. But if it does it to a decent fraction, it makes all the difference in terms of what you're able to do and how quickly you can do   Mike Paciello ** 52:52 it. Yeah, I can argue with that at all. I think any time that we can make our jobs a little bit easier so that we can focus where we should be focused. In this case, as you said, the expertise side of it, right to fix those complicated scenarios or situations that require a hands on surgical like Right? Expertise, you can do that now. You've got more hours more time because it's been saved. The only thing I would say, Mike, about what, what you just said, is that there with that, with that mindset, okay, comes responsibility. Oh, yeah, in this is where I think in everybody that knows anything about this environment, you and I have an intimate understanding of this. The whole overlay discussion is the biggest problem with what happened was less about the technology and more about what claims are being made. Yeah, the technology could do which you could not do in, in some cases, could never do, or would never, would never do, well, right? So if you create, and I would submit this is true in as a fundamental principle, if you create a technology of any kind, you must, in truth, inform your clients of of what it can and cannot do so they understand the absolute value to them, because the last thing you want, because, again, we live in a, unfortunately, a very litigious world. Right soon as there's   Michael Hingson ** 54:49 a mistake couldn't happen,   Mike Paciello ** 54:51 they'll go right after you. So now you know, and again, I don't I'm not necessarily just blaming the ambulance chasers of the world. World. I was talking to an NFP lawyer today. He referred to them in a different name, and I can't remember well, I never heard the expression before, but that's what he meant, right? Yeah, it's the salesman and the product managers and the marketing people themselves, who are were not themselves, to your point, properly trained, properly educated, right? It can't be done, what clearly could not be said, what should or should not be said, right? And then you got lawyers writing things all over the place. So, yeah, yeah. So, so I look people knew when I made the decision to come to audio eye that it was a make or break scenario for me, or at least that's what they thought in my mindset. It always, has always been, that I see incredible possibilities as you do or technology, it just has to be handled responsibly.   Michael Hingson ** 55:56 Do you think that the companies are getting better and smarter about what they portray about their products than they than they were three and four and five years ago.   Mike Paciello ** 56:08 Okay, look, I sat in and chaired a meeting with the NFB on this whole thing. And without a doubt, they're getting smarter. But it took not just a stick, you know, but, but these large lawsuits to get them to change their thinking, to see, you know, where they where they were wrong, and, yeah, things are much better. There's still some issues out there. I both know it that's going to happen, that happens in every industry,   Michael Hingson ** 56:42 but there are improvements. It is getting better, and people are getting smarter, and that's where an organization like the NFB really does need to become more involved than in a sense, they are. They took some pretty drastic steps with some of the companies, and I think that they cut off their nose, despite their face as well, and that didn't help. So I think there are things that need to be done all the way around, but I do see that progress is being made too. I totally   Mike Paciello ** 57:11 agree, and in fact, I'm working with them right now. We're going to start working on the California Accessibility Act again. I'm really looking forward to working with the NFB, the DRC and Imperato over there and his team in the disability rights consortium, consortium with disability rights. What DRC coalition, coalition in in California. I can't wait to do that. We tried last year. We got stopped short. It got tabled, but I feel very good about where we're going this year. So that's, that's my that's, that is my focus right now. And I'm glad I'm going to be able to work with the NFB to be able to do that. Yeah, well, I, I really do hope that it passes. We've seen other states. We've seen some states pass some good legislation, and hopefully we will continue to see some of that go on. Yeah, Colorado has done a great job. Colorado sent a great job. I think they've done it. I really like what's being done with the EAA, even though it's in Europe, and some of the things that are going there, Susanna, Lauren and I had some great discussions. I think she is has been a leader of a Yeoman effort at that level. So we'll see. Let's, let's, I mean, there's still time out here. I guess I really would like to retire,   Michael Hingson ** 58:28 but I know the feeling well, but I can't afford to yet, so I'll just keep speaking and all that well, Mike, this has been wonderful. I really appreciate you taking an hour and coming on, and at least neither of us is putting up with any kind of snow right now, but later in the year we'll see more of that.   Mike Paciello ** 58:45 Yeah, well, maybe you will. We don't get snow down. I have. We've gotten maybe 25 flakes in North Carolina since I've been here.   Michael Hingson ** 58:53 Yeah, you don't get a lot of snow. We don't hear we don't really get it here, around us, up in the mountains, the ski resorts get it, but I'm out in a valley, so we don't, yeah,   Mike Paciello ** 59:02 yeah, no. I love it. I love this is golfing weather.   Michael Hingson ** 59:05 There you go. If people want to reach out to you, how do they do that?   Mike Paciello ** 59:11 There's a couple of ways. Certainly get in touch with me at AudioEye. It's michael.paciello@audioeye.com   Michael Hingson ** 59:17 B, A, C, I, E, L, L, O,   Mike Paciello ** 59:18 that's correct. Thank you for that. You could send me personal email at Mike paciello@gmail.com and or you can send me email at web able. It's m passielo at web able.com, any one of those ways. And please feel free you get on all the social networks. So feel free to link, connect to me. Anyway, I try to respond. I don't think there's anyone I I've not responded to one form or another.   Michael Hingson ** 59:46 Yeah, I'm I'm the same way. If I get an email, I want to respond to it. Yeah, well, thanks again for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening. We really appreciate it. Love to hear your thoughts about this episode. Please feel free to email. Me, you can get me the email address I generally use is Michael h i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, or you can go to our podcast page, which is Michael hingson.com/podcast, and there's a contact form there. But love to hear from you. Love to hear your thoughts, and most of all, please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening. We value your ratings and your reviews a whole lot, so we really appreciate you doing that. And if any of you, and Mike, including you, can think of other people that you think ought to be guests on the podcast, we are always looking for more people, so fill us up, help us find more folks. And we would appreciate that a great deal. So again, Mike, thanks very much. This has been a lot of fun, and we'll have to do it again.   Mike Paciello ** 1:00:44 Thanks for the invitation. Mike, I really appreciate it. Don't forget to add 10 Nakata to your list,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:49 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. 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