Podcasts about American Red Cross

If you love great storytelling, you'll connect with this conversation. I sit down with Walden Hughes, a man whose Unstoppable passion has kept Old Time Radio alive for decades. As the voice behind YESTERDAY USA and a driving force with REPS, Walden has dedicated his life to preserving the art, sound, and soul of classic radio. We talk about what made those early shows so timeless, the craft of the actors, the power of imagination, and how simple audio could create entire worlds. Walden also shares how modern technology, archives, and community support are bringing these programs to new audiences. This conversation is about more than nostalgia. It's about keeping storytelling alive. Walden reminds us that great radio never fades and that imagination will always be Unstoppable. Highlights: 00:10 – Discover why Old Time Radio still captures the imagination of listeners today. 01:19 – Hear how the end of an era shaped the way we think about storytelling. 02:32 – Learn what made the performances and production of classic radio so unique. 04:25 – Explore how legendary shows left a lasting influence on modern audio. 05:16 – Gain insight into what separates timeless audio drama from today's versions. 08:32 – Find out how passion and purpose can turn nostalgia into something new. 12:15 – Uncover the community that keeps classic radio alive for new generations. 16:20 – See how creativity and teamwork sustain live radio productions. 24:48 – Learn how dedication and innovation keep 24/7 classic broadcasts running. 33:57 – Understand how listener support helps preserve the magic of radio history. 37:38 – Reflect on why live storytelling still holds a special kind of energy. 41:35 – Hear how new technology is shaping the future of audio storytelling. 46:26 – Discover how preservation groups bring lost performances back to life. 50:29 – Explore the process of restoring and protecting rare audio archives. 55:31 – Learn why authenticity and care matter in preserving sound for the future.     About the Guest: From a young age, Walden Hughes developed a lifelong love for radio and history. Appearing in documentaries on “Beep Baseball,” he went on to collect more than 50,000 old-time radio shows and produce hundreds of live nostalgic broadcasts. His work celebrates radio's golden era through events, celebrity interviews, and re-creations performed nationwide. His deep family roots reach back to early American history — from a Mayflower ancestor to relatives who served in major U.S. wars — shaping his respect for storytelling and legacy. With degrees in economics, political science, and an MBA in finance, he built a successful career in investments before turning his passion into purpose. As general manager and producer for Yesterday USA and longtime board member of SPERDVAC, he's preserved classic entertainment for future generations. Honored with awards like the Herb Ellis and Dick Beals Awards, he continues to consult for icons like Kitty Kallen and the Sinatra family, keeping the voices of radios past alive for audiences today.   Ways to connect with Walden:   Cell:  714/454-3281 Email:  waldenhughes@yesterdayusa.com or www.yesterdayusa.com Live shows are Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights beginning at 7:30 PDT.     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Wherever you are listening from, we're really glad you're here, and we are going to have a guest who we've had on before we get to have him on again, and we're going to grill him really good. I want you to remember that a few weeks ago, we talked to Walden Hughes. And Walden is a collector of old radio shows. He's been very involved with organizations that help promote the hobby of old radio shows, and old rate Old Time Radio, as I do, and I thought it would be kind of fun to have him back, because there are a number of events coming up that I think are very relevant to talk about, and so we're going to do that. So Walden, welcome back to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Michael, been such a long time, and glad you invited me back. Well, I know it's been so long well, so tell me, let's, let's go back again. You know, radio people talk about the golden days of radio, or the time of old radio. When do we think that? When do we say that officially ended, although I think it went beyond   Walden Hughes ** 02:29 it. I though I jumped 30th, 1962, I'm, yeah, I I think the style changed a little bit, I'm probably a romantic somewhat. I love the style of old time radio. I love how it sound. Yeah, I think in in the 3040s and 50s, the studios and the theater that they use sounded great for radio, and it disturbed me, and I bet you have the same feeling, Michael, that when you get new production and new the new studio, it just doesn't sound right. I feel the equilibrium is not quite the way. I love old time radio. I think Old Time Radio A prime web. I think a lot of new productions out there that, you know, release their podcasts and things on a weekly basis. I think they're handicapped. They just don't have the budget to really create and build a studio the way I think it should be, that if they have, it sound just natural and just right.   Michael Hingson ** 03:43 And I think that's part of it, but I think the other part of it is that people today don't seem to know how to act and create the same kind of environment with their voice that Old Time Radio actors did in the 30s, 40s and 50s and into into the early 60s, even we had Carl Amari on several weeks ago. And of course, one of the things that Carl did was, did complete recreations of all of the Twilight Zone shows. And even some of those are, are they sound sort of forced? Some of the actors sound forced, and they they haven't really learned how to sound natural in radio like some of the older actors do.   Walden Hughes ** 04:34 Yeah, and I know Bob we call did it for a bike I get thrown off when he generally way. Did have the highway stars remote end, and he had a Stock Company of Chicago after, and I could hear the equilibrium just not quite right. That bothers me. I don't know if the average person picks up on that, and you're right. I don't know if. Is it the style of acting that they teach in film and TV? It needs a radio acting different in a lot of ways, and you got it as you point. It's got to be realistic into the environment. And actors don't get that for radio,   Michael Hingson ** 05:25 yeah, and you talked about the last day for you of real radio was September 30, 1962 and we should probably explain why that is   Walden Hughes ** 05:36 diet throughout the CBS your Troy John and suspense as the two main keys of old time radio. And that was the last day of old time radio out of New York. And I hardcore Lacher sister. Think that's one radio Shane died per se   Michael Hingson ** 05:58 Gunsmoke and Have Gun Will Travel were gone, right,   Walden Hughes ** 06:01 and the soap operas ended in November 2560 I like soap operas. I know a lot of people do not, but there's something can't there's something campy about it that I like. I would, I would like, I prefer to listen to somebody also proper than do some of the new production and make sure the acting style,   Michael Hingson ** 06:27 but I think there's a lot to do with it that that makes that the case. And I think you're absolutely right that so many things are different, but at the same time, radio did sort of continue. And there was, there were some good shows zero hour, the Hollywood radio theater that Rod Serling did later. And of course, NPR did Star Wars.   Walden Hughes ** 06:58 And I like that I did.   Michael Hingson ** 07:02 Yeah, I think that was done pretty well. And what do you think of CBS mystery theater? Honestly, CBS mystery theater, I thought that generally, CBS mystery theater had some good actors, and they did a pretty good job. I I can't complain too much about that, and it was on for a long time.   Walden Hughes ** 07:18 But what do you think of the script, though?   Michael Hingson ** 07:22 Well, part of the problem for me and CBS mystery theater is, and I'm sure it was a cost issue. There weren't very many people in most of the scripts. There was like two or three or so and and that was a problem. But I think that that the scripts suffered because there weren't more people in the scripts to really make it again sound pretty natural. I think that was a problem.   Walden Hughes ** 07:52 Yeah, Hyman Brown really knew how to crank it out. I think it has a good, solid B production, you know, the scripts. And I think the scripts are quite hampered. You couldn't, actually couldn't knock the actors. I thought the actors were Mercedes McCambridge and all those were terrific actors, but you're right. Sam dam wrote a lot of them, yeah, and things like that. But I   Michael Hingson ** 08:21 think, I think they would have been nicer to have more people in the scripts. But I understand that, that that probably was more difficult to do just because of union and scale and the cost. But gee, I think it would have made a big difference in the shows. But Hyman Brown really knew, as you said, How to crank them   Walden Hughes ** 08:39 out. Yeah, that's why, in some ways, I think the series, radio theater, the way 70 is a it's a terrific series. Didn't have the financial backing to make it last longer than the two years I was   Michael Hingson ** 08:52 on. Now, one show I really liked on in PR later was alien world, which I thought was good. I'd never heard any of them, so they were good, yeah, yeah, okay. I'm very happy with alien worlds. There were some actors from radio and in early television and so on. Hans con read, for example, was on some, yeah, I thought alien worlds went really well. I guess we're gonna have to get you some and get you to lose, Okay, interesting.   Walden Hughes ** 09:21 I just got done taking a eight week course on entrepreneurship for disabled people, and my idea is to pitch that we should be doing audio theater as a podcast. I think if it's big enough, it attracts national sponsors. And if you look at the numbers, everybody podcasting, 135 million people in the USA download a podcast once a week. Revenue, $2.46 billion yeah. Worldwide, 5 billion people download a podcast once a week. Revenue, three. $4 billion and so she had a well known he had a podcast with well known stars. I think she could get that 1% in that market, and then you can generate between the 24 to 40 million, $40 million in revenue a year. That would easily sure be a good financial model, and that's what I'm pitching. But when I went to the court, they asked me what to analyze, what's wrong with my what obstacles I have. And one of the things I put down is besides the studio we talked about and the acting, which a really good actor, actress, everybody, like a Beverly Washburn can pick up a script and knock it out of the park right away. Most actors are not able to do that. That's a real gift, as Michael was pointing out. But the other thing most scripts are written for film and TV, which is a verbal which is a eye medium, and a radio script is written for the ear, and I have produced enough the ear is faster than the eye. If you take like a TV script and a book and read it out loud, the mind wander. It has to have a faster pace for the ear. And I don't think more people notice that when they're analyzing a script,   Michael Hingson ** 11:31 yeah, but you you're sort of treading around the edges of something else. I think that is fascinating, that we can start to talk about one of the things that has occurred some over the past few years, and whether it be with a podcast or even just with the mechanisms we're using today, is there are some attempts to recreate some of the old radio shows and and you and I have both Well, we Have to get you acting in one of those shows, Walden. But I have, I've acted in the shows Walden works behind the scenes, and there are a number of people who have been involved with him. And you really can tell some of the good actors who performed in old radio as you said, Beverly Washburn, Carolyn Grimes and others. Carolyn, of course, is Zuzu from It's A Wonderful Life, and by the way, she's going to be coming on unstoppable mindset in the not too distant future. But, but the point is that you can tell those people because they've done it, and they're very comfortable with it, and they know how to make it come across really well. So for example, you're the president of the radio enthusiasts of Puget Sound. Now you're down here in Southern California. How did you work out being the president of reps?   Walden Hughes ** 13:01 Why my closest friends a hobby, Brian Haygood, and Brian's been one of the big movers and shakers of reps over the years. And when the founder, Mike Sprague, decided to step down, they were looking for new people to run showcase back in 2007 so Brian asked me, because I'm the one that has the contacts, you know, I'm the one booking guests for y USA rep, I'm sure the go to person with contacts and phone numbers, everybody. And so I just wound up doing the CO produced showcase back in 2007 with Brian. So that's been one of the things I wound up doing.   13:50 I produce   Walden Hughes ** 13:52 almost 30 923, or four days events of All Time Radio around the country. So tell us about showcase, showcase. It will be September 18, 19/20, 21st is a big event for us, for reps, and we got funding thanks to Ford culture and the state of Washington to do this. And it's free. You can go to reps online.org, and RSVP and come. And people that you get to see this time around are Beverly Washburn from Star Trek, when the bear ministry shows, yeah, when, when the bear man a good, solid voice actress, and also is a coach. Carolyn Grimes, as you mentioned, Margaret O'Brien, of course, you know Margaret from Oscar war winner from meet me in St Louis, Gigi Perot, and she goes back to the 40s and 50s. And did the belly hunting TV show, Tommy cook and Lacher Riley, a radio show. Ivan Kirk. Troy. Bobby Benson. Bill Owen, who you had on ABC TV announcer, author of The Big broadcast, Ron cocking. He and his great wife, Gloria Macmillan ran acting school for children.   Michael Hingson ** 15:15 Bill Ratner Miller, of course, is famous for radio.   Walden Hughes ** 15:18 Right arm is Brooks. Bill Ratner from GI Joe. Bill Johnson, who does Bob Hope around the country. John provoke to Timmy Lacher. Chuck Daugherty, the announcer for second announcer for Sergeant president of the Yukon King and discover the Beach Boys. David Osman from fire sign theater. Phil prosper from fire sign theater. John Iman, who was from the TV show Lacher. And there was Larry Albert and John Jensen, the big band Lacher. John Laurie gasping, and Dan Murphy used to be the program director ki Xi out in Seattle. And so that's gonna be a great weekend. We'll produce close to it, I think, 1819 radio recreation that's still negotiating. And we have several interviews and panel. It's all free. So you can go to repsonline.org, and that's one of our two major events, the other major events at the Christmas show in December, the first week in December. I'm hoping Mike can make it up that   Michael Hingson ** 16:31 weekend, I was hoping to be able to come to the Showcase. And one of my favorite shows, and Walden and I had talked about doing it, is Richard diamond private detective. And I actually asked to be cast as Richard diamond, but then a speaking engagement came up. So unfortunately, rather than being in Washington, I am going to be in Minnesota, I'm sorry, in Pennsylvania, speaking. So I won't be able to be there, but we'll do Richard diamond. That's gonna be a fun show one of these days. We'll do it.   Walden Hughes ** 17:06 We'll put we put it aside. So when Mike can can do it, we can do it so but no, really blessed to have the financial grants to keep audio theater live on a nonprofit basis, and that that that's a great board, and cannot every group's had that financial abilities right now to do that, and it's so expensive around the country to do it, terms of airfare, hotel commitments and Just meeting room costs, I mean, for people who may or may not know, when you go to a hotel a live event now, a lot of hotels expect that that meeting room needs to generate at least $10,000 of income per day. That that's a lot of money. And so we have a place that doesn't, that doesn't do that, and we're able to produce that. And so rep definitely focus on the live, live audio theater part, and also has a large library, like 33,000 shows I heard where we have so people can download, and we're also aggressively buying discs and things to add to the library. And I remember spur back I part of and I'll tell you some of the latest news and that when we talk to that topic, but it's just old time radio is in really good   Michael Hingson ** 18:41 shape at the moment. You mentioned Larry Albert, and most people won't know, but Larry Albert's been in radio for what, 40 years, and has played Detective Harry Niles that whole time, and he's also Dr Watson on Sherlock Holmes again, there are some really good professionals out there, which is cool, yeah, yeah, who understand and know how to talk in a way that really draws people in, which is what it's all about,   Walden Hughes ** 19:15 absolutely. And considering Larry and a co founder, they run all vacations, sure, the after of imagination theater. Sure they carry the banner up in Seattle, and it's pretty amazing what they're able to produce.   Michael Hingson ** 19:32 Yeah. Now, in addition to the Showcase and the Christmas show that reps is going to be doing, reps also does some other shows, don't they, during the year for like veterans and others up in the Seattle area, Tulsa, right?   Walden Hughes ** 19:46 We I thought that idea down here at spur back in 2017 the Long Beach Veterans Hospital, they still have the original theme. Leader, Mike, that Jack Benny and Bob Hope did their shows in front of the Vets at Long Beach. And I know you and I have radio shows from the Long Beach Veterans Hospital. Yes, and the stage is still there. It's the biggest stage I've ever seen. Mike, the seating area is mobile, so that way they can bring patients in who are wheelchairs or whatever, or in bed. They still have the 1940 film projectors and booth up above that they want to run movies in there, and it's just a remarkable feeling to be on stage that Bob Hope and and Jack Bailey did a show, and then the famous broadcast were Ralph Edward consequences, yeah, the Hubert Smith, who was A patient at the hospital and and so in 2017 we did. It's a Wonderful Life. And we had a gigantic crowd. I think it was almost 200 people came to that. And I was for the public and people inside the hospital. And it was, it was a exciting event to have deluxe version of It's a Wonderful Life, which was the 70th anniversary of the broadcast, right? And so I decided to take that concept and take up to Seattle and start performing shows inside the VA hospital system in Seattle. It took a while. It's hard, it's hard to get into the VA, VA system to put on shows, because you got to talk to the right people, and you gotta get a hold of PR and not always easy. So I found the right contacts, and then the state awards, and then has a grant for for veterans or veteran family member to be in shows, and so we're able to get some funding from the state for that so, and then we will also encourage them to come to showcase in September so. But no, that's that's another program we got going for that,   Michael Hingson ** 22:20 someone who I unfortunately never did get to meet, although I heard a lot of his shows, and he helped continue to bring memories of radio to especially the military. Was Frank brazzi, who was around for quite a while, and then he he was also on yesterday USA, a lot. Wasn't he sure where he's   Walden Hughes ** 22:46 from, from 1993 until 2018 so he had a good 25 year run on why USA, Frank and I co host the Friday night show for many years, until he passed away in 2018 show from 2000 to 2018 Frank was amazing guy. He was. He owned his own radio station in South Carolina, South Carolina Island. When he was 19, he had to form the first tape course in Hollywood show Bob Hope would hire him, and he would record all Bob stuff at Paramount Studio and sit to radio station and travel with Bob to record his radio Show. He also was Jim Hawthorne producer for television, Frank wound up developing board games a pass out sold 6 million copies in the new wedding the dating game. He had a company that got gift for game shows on television. He also set up a brother in a company to monitor when commercials were run on TV. Frank also produced record albums every day. He had Walter Winchell record the life of Alex joelson. Met with Jimmy Durante, had Jimmy Durante do an album, Eddie Cantor and so frank is one of these great entrepreneurs that was able to make a lot of money and spend a lot of it on his love for radio. He was the substitute for little beaver, for example, on Red Rider so and he loved doing the show the golden days of radio, which started in 1949 and from 1967 on, it was part of the Armed Forces Radio Service, which was put on 400 stations. And I'm the, I'm the care caregiver, caretaker of. All that items. So I have all the shows and getting them transferred and play them on y USA and Frank wanted to make sure his entire collection was available to collectors. So we want to make sure things were copied and things like that for people to enjoy. But no big part of old time radio, in a lot of ways, not behind the scene a little bit. You know, wasn't a big name person during the golden days of radio, but afterwards, wound up being a major person that carried the fire Troy, full time radio.   Michael Hingson ** 25:35 I know we talked about a little bit, but talk to us about yesterday, USA, that has been around quite a while, and in general, for those who don't know, yesterday, USA is an internet radio station, actually two, if you will. There's a red and a blue network of yesterday USA, and they both stations broadcast to old radio 24 hours a day, although conversations and up to date conversations are interspersed, it still primarily is a a vehicle for playing old radio shows, right?   Walden Hughes ** 26:13 Yeah, been around since 1983 founded by its start. Yeah. Founded by Bill Bragg, Bill started the largest communication museum in the world back in 1979 in Dallas, Texas, and he had a film exchanger. And there was a TV station called a nostalgia channel, and it had these films of old TV shows, but they didn't have the media to transfer it, and so they contacted Bill. Bill agreed to transfer the film. He asked what it is exchanged for him. They said, we can give you an audio channel on satellite. And they gave that to him. And so he tried to decide what to do. So he started a broadcast Old Time Radio over satellite, and he was over the big C span satellite   Speaker 1 ** 27:12 until Oh into the 2005   Walden Hughes ** 27:16 era or so. Wound up being the audio shop carrier for WGN got it high in 2000 at the third most popular internet broadcast site in the world, behind the BBC and CNN around the Lacher saw around 44 that's not too bad, with 15,000 stations online.   Michael Hingson ** 27:41 I remember, I remember it was probably like 1998 or so, maybe 97 we were living in New Jersey, and I was doing something on my computer. And I don't even remember how I discovered it, but suddenly I found yesterday, USA, and at that time, yesterday, USA was one channel, and people could become DJs, if you will, and play old radio shows. You could have an hour and a half slot. And every other week you updated your broadcast, and they put on your shows at different times during the the two week period. But it was a wave that, again, a lot of people got an opportunity to listen to radio, and I'm sure it was very popular.   Walden Hughes ** 28:32 Yeah, yeah, if they'll to Lacher show, we don't, we don't get 40,000 to 60,000 listening hours a month, with it a lot, because a lot, maybe some people might listen to seven minutes, some might people listen to a half hour and all that accumulative, it's almost 60,000 hours a month. So that's a lot of hours that people are accessing in it, there's something nice about being alive. I don't know what you think Mike, but doing something live is pretty special, and that's, that's the nice thing about what yesterday USA can provide, and we can talk, take calls, and then, you know, in the old days, you have more and more people talk about Old Time Radio. No doubting, but a lot of new people don't have those memories, so we we might do some other things to keep it interesting for people to talk about, but it's still the heart and soul. Is still old time radio in a lot of ways, and we're definitely the fiber, I think for new people to find old time radio.   29:43 How did you get involved with it?   Walden Hughes ** 29:47 I became aware of it in the early 80s when sperback mentioned it in the news trailer, so I knew it's out there. And I called, and Bill returned my call. I said, I would like my cable TV. A company to play it, and I contacted my cable TV. They couldn't get to that channel that was on the satellite, so they put big band music on those dead on the community board. And so at the same time as you about 1998 I had a good enough computer with a good enough sound card I could pick up yesterday, USA. I was aware of it. It started on the internet in 1996 I started to listen, and then I would sort of call in around 2000 they would ask a question Bill and Mike and not really know the answer, so I will quickly call and give the answer, then leave. Eventually, they realized that I knew kitty Cowan, the big band, singer of the 40s and 50s. They asked me to bring on and do the interview, which we did September 17 of 2000 and then they asked, Could I do interviews on a regular basis? And so when a kiddie friend who I knew, Tess Russell, who was Gene Autry's Girl Friday, who ran kmpc for the audience, that was the station with the stars down the road, easy listening music,   Michael Hingson ** 31:21 golden broadcasting, and that was the station Gene Autry owned, yep.   Walden Hughes ** 31:26 And I think everybody in the music business but the old touch rush all favor. So she she hooked up, she signed up. She gave me set book 17 guests for me, right away from Joe staff or the Troy Martin to Pat Boone Patti Page, who wrote them all out. So I had a major start, and then I started to contact people via letters, celebrities and things. And I think it's a really good batting average. Mike, I had a success rate of 20% Wow. Wish it was a person that didn't I had no contact with that I could turn into a guess. I always thought I was a pretty good batting average. Yeah, and I got Margaret Truman that way. I mean, she called me, said, Wong, I forgot I did this radio show with Jimmy Stewart. She did jackpot, you know, the screen director of Playhouse. And we talked about her time on The Big Show with Tallulah Bankhead. They said, a big help with Fred Allen to her. She we talked about she hosted a show, NBC show called weekday with what the weekday version of monitor was, Mike Wallace. And she talks about how Mike had a terrible temper, and if he got upset with the engineer, she has to grab his jacket and pull him back in his chair just to try to cool them off. And so we had a great time with Margaret O'Brien, Margaret Truman, but, but I always thought that would a pretty good bat Navy getting 20% and in those days, in early 2000 a lot of celebrities would be were willing to interact with the through the website, with you, and so I did that. So I booked hundreds of celebrity interviews over the years, and so it's been a, I think, an important part what I do is trying to preserve people's memories, right that way we have the recordings.   Michael Hingson ** 33:43 And so how long was Bill with yesterday, USA.   Walden Hughes ** 33:49 I passed away in 2019 so Bill from 83 to 2019, to us, 10 years or so of his wife, though he had   Michael Hingson ** 34:05 Alzheimer's and dementia, and so you could tell he was he was sounding older, yeah, and   Walden Hughes ** 34:11 he wasn't behind the scene. He was really erratic in a lot of ways. So Kim, Kim and I wound up his wife, and I wound up running the station for the last 10 years, behind the scene, okay, Bill wasn't able to do it, and so I would be the one handling the interaction with the public and handling the just jockeys, and Kim would do the automation system and do the paperwork. So she and I pretty much ran the station.   34:43 And now you do   Walden Hughes ** 34:45 it, I do it, yeah, and so I think Bill always had in mind that I'd be the one running the station in a lot of ways. And think to the listeners, we've been able to pay the bills enough to keep it. Going, I would love to generate more income for it.   Michael Hingson ** 35:03 Well, tell us about that. How are you doing the income generation? And so most of it is through   Walden Hughes ** 35:09 a live auction that we have in November this year, will be on Saturday, November 22 and people donate gift cards or items, and people bid on it, or people donate, and that money we basically use to help pay the monthly bills, which are power bills and phone bills and things like that, and so, which is a remarkable thing. Not every internet radio station has a big enough fan base to cover the cost, and so all the internet stations you see out there, everybody, the owners, sort of really have to pull money out of their own pocket. But why USA been around long enough, it has enough loyal following that our listenership really kicks in. I mean, we built a brand new studio here with the with the audience donating the funds, which is pretty remarkable. You know, to do that,   Michael Hingson ** 36:16 yeah, you got the new board in, and it's working and all that. And that's, a good thing. It really is. Well, I have been a listener since I discovered y USA. When we moved out to California for a while, I wasn't quite as active of a listener, but I still worked at it as I could. But then we moved down here, and then after Karen passed, was easier to get a lot more directly involved. And so I know I contribute to the auction every year, and I'm gonna do it again this year.   Walden Hughes ** 36:49 So would you, when you were after what you knew, why you said, Did you did you come with your question still quite a bit when you were working and traveling all the time over the years.   Michael Hingson ** 37:01 Oh, yeah, yeah, oh, I did a lot of times, and still, do I listen to some internet radio stations? Why USA among them when I travel, just because when I go to a new hotel, sometimes I can make the TV work, and sometimes I can't, but also sometimes finding the stations that I want to listen to is a little bit more of a challenge, whereas I can just use my my smartphone, my iPhone, and I've got a number of stations programmed in the only time I have had A little bit of a challenge with some of that is when I travel outside the US, sometimes I can't get direct access to some of the stations because of copyright laws. They don't they don't allow them to be broadcast out of the US, but mostly even there, I'm able to do it. But I do like to listen to old radio when I travel, typically, not on an airplane, but when I when I land, yes, yeah.   Walden Hughes ** 38:08 I think that's one thing that they ended up taking over. I think a lot of people grew up listening to the radio. Enjoy the uniqueness of radio station had. I don't know if you see that today, but I think the internet have replaced that.   Michael Hingson ** 38:24 Well, somewhat, I've seen some articles that basically say that there is a lot more shortwave listening and actual radio listening to radio stations than there is through the internet, but there is an awful lot of listening to the radio stations through the internet as well, but people do still like to listen to radio.   Walden Hughes ** 38:50 What do you think podcast? How you think podcasts fit in? I mean, you'd be hosting your own show. How you think that fit into the overall consumer questioning habit?   Michael Hingson ** 38:59 Well, I think then, what's going on with podcasts is that, like with anything, there are some really good ones. There are a lot of people who just do do something, and it's not necessarily really great quality. They think they're doing great, and they maybe are, but, but I think that overall, podcasting is something that people listen to when they're running, when they're walking, when they're doing exercising, when they're doing something else, running on a treadmill or whatever, a lot More than listening to a radio program that probably requires a little bit more concentration. But make no mistake about it, podcasts are here to stay, and podcasts are very dominant in in a lot of ways, because people do listen to them   Walden Hughes ** 39:56 a niche audience. So you find you find your audience who. Are looking for that particular topic, and so they tune into that their favorite podcast that they knew there really might be covering that topic.   Michael Hingson ** 40:07 Sure, there is some of that. But going back to what you were talking about earlier, if you get some good audio drama, and I know that there are some good podcasts out there that that do some things with good drama, that will draw in a wider audience, and that gets to be more like radio and and I think people like radio. People like what they used to listen to, kids so much today, don't but, well, they never heard old they never heard radio. But by the same token, good acting and good drama and good podcasts will draw people in just like it always has been with radio.   Walden Hughes ** 40:54 What I'm also noticing like the day the disc jockeys are, they somewhat gone. I mean, we grew up in an era where you had well known hosts that were terrific Dick jockey that kept you entertained. And I make it, I don't listen to too much because, for example, everybody the easy listening big band era, pretty much not in LA in the La radio market right now, right and I missed it.   Michael Hingson ** 41:23 I miss it too. And I agree with you, I think that we're not seeing the level of really good radio hosts that we used to there are some on podcasts. But again, it is different than it used to be. And I think some podcasts will continue to do well and and we will see how others go as as time passes, but I think that we don't see a Gary Owens on television on radio anymore. We don't see Jim Lang or Dick Whittington and whitting Hill and all those people, we don't see any of that like we used to. And so even Sirius XM isn't providing as much of that as as it used to.   Walden Hughes ** 42:20 And so what do you think AI is going to fit? I was listening to, I'm a sport fan, and Mike is a sport fan, so I like listening to ESPN and Fox Sports Radio.   Michael Hingson ** 42:32 And I was listening to a discussion over the weekend that they are, they are working some of the immediate it to replace the play by play announcer they're working with. Ai, can I figure eventually that can be a caution. It to do away with all announcers. I'm not sure that's going to happen, because I don't know. It doesn't seem like it could. I'm not sure that that will happen. I think that even if you look at the discussions about audible and other organizations providing AI voices to read books, what people say, and I'm sure over time, this will change a little bit, but and I'll get back to the button in a moment, people Say, I would much rather have a human narrated book than an AI narrated book, and the reason is, is because AI hasn't captured the human voice. Yet you may have somebody who sounds like an individual person to a degree, but you don't have the same pauses, the same intonations, the same kind of thing with AI that you do with humans. Now, will that get better over time? Sure, it will. But will it get it to be as good as humans? I think that's got a long way to go yet, and I don't think that you're going to see AI really replacing people in that regard. I think AI's got a lot that it can do, but I actually had somebody on the podcast last year, and one of the things that he said is, AI will never replace anyone. People will replace people with AI, maybe, although that may or may not be a good thing, but nobody has to be replaced because of AI, because you can always give them other jobs to do. So for example, one of the discussions that this gentleman and I had were was about having AI when you have autonomous vehicles and you have trucks that can drive themselves, and so you can ship things from place to place, keep the driver in the truck anyway. And instead of the driver driving the vehicle, the driver can be given other tasks to do, so that you still keep that person busy. And you you become more efficient. And so you let i. I do the things that it can do, but there are just so many things that AI isn't going to do that I don't think that AI is ever going to replace humans. The whole point is that we make leaps that AI is not going to be able to do.   Walden Hughes ** 45:15 Yeah, I think a good example in the audio book field, a really great reader can give you emotion and play the characters and make it realistic. And I don't know AI ever going to reach that point to bring emotions and feelings into a reading of story   Michael Hingson ** 45:32 not the same way. And as I said, I've been involved or listened and watched discussions where people say, for example, I might use AI to read a non fiction book because I'm not really paying so much attention to the reader and I'm just getting the information. But when it comes to reading a fiction book, and when it comes to really wanting to focus on the reader, I don't want AI is what I constantly hear. I want a person, and I understand that,   Walden Hughes ** 46:00 yeah, I think what you'll see AI, especially, take over the drive thru when people go to a fast food place. I can see AI replacing the interaction and trying to get those things corrected. I can see that   Michael Hingson ** 46:14 maybe, maybe, I mean, you know some of that to a degree, but I think that people are still going to rule out in the end, for quite a while. Well, you know, in talking about all the different radio organizations, I know we talked about a little bit last night last time, but tell me about spurt back.   Walden Hughes ** 46:36 Yeah, I can give you some new updates. Spoke actually been around to 1974   Michael Hingson ** 46:42 I remember when spurred back began a person who I knew, who was a listener to my radio program, Jerry Hindi, guess, was involved with with all of that. My problem with attending spurred back meetings was that it was they were way too far away from me at UC Irvine to be able to do it, but I joined by mail for a while, and, and, and that was pretty good. But by the same token, you know, it was there,   Walden Hughes ** 47:11 it was there. And spur back. Have honored over 500 people who worked in the golden days of radio. A lot of district donated. They had the meetings in the conventions now we're evolving very quickly this year into more preservation work. So we have bought over $10,000 in computers here recently. We bought and we donated, actually, we won a prize, although the first Lacher disk turntables from Japan, which is over a $10,000 turntable, we'll be using that to help dub disc. And the board is just voted in. It's going to increase the board to at least 11 people next year who will have a carryover of the seven board member and we want to have no new board members. So maybe you and I can talk about that Mike for you to be on for next year, because we'll be definitely expanding the board with 11 one. So I think it'd be really strong in the preservation stuff, because perfect got 20 to 30,000 deaths that need to get out there. And with all your new equipment, it's amazing how full time radio sounds so good today terms of the new technology, and compare where I started collecting the 70 and I ran into a lot of even commercial stuff really muddy in those days. Mike, I bet you did too, and it's a remarkable difference. Spur back is planning to be at the Troy Boston festival next April, what does spread back? Stand for the society to preserve and encourage radio drama, variety and comedy. And you can go to spur back.com Join. You can go to repsonlect.org to join. And we then mentioned yesterday, USA. Yesterday usa.com or.net and can go there and listen away and participate in the auction, which will be coming up November 22 Yeah, very important to do as well. But anyway, I really think full time radio is in a really good spot. Mike. I think if it was for the internet, I don't know if we would find all the young people who are interested in it. I think it then it been a double edged sword. It knocked out a lot of dealers. You know, they used to make money selling their tapes and CDs and everything, and I bought a lot. I know you did too over the years, but those days are pretty. Pretty much done, and but if found a lot of new younger people to find the stations or find podcast and they get to learn about yesterday USA and Old Time Radio, and all the different radio ones more and all the different internet station are playing it until they can expose and I don't think that would have happened before the internet, so I think it'll always have it created a whole new listenership.   Michael Hingson ** 50:30 I am still amazed at some of the things that I hear. I remember once when somebody found a whole bunch of old Petri wine sponsored Sherlock Holmes with basil, Rathbone and Nigel Bruce. They were horrible quality. Was it Chris who   Walden Hughes ** 50:50 found? Yep, Chris one best founded me up and found me a bookstore.   Michael Hingson ** 50:55 And the quality wasn't wasn't good at all, but they were remastered, and they sound incredible. They do how they do it, because I'd love to be able to do that with shows that I have, and like to remaster them.   Walden Hughes ** 51:13 Yeah, what happened was, you know, they were two writers, green and Boucher, Lacher, Lacher, right, and Boucher was a famous bachelor Khan. The famous mystery convention is named after him. And Dennis Green was an actor on radio, and he was also a historian. He knew, like all everything about Sherlock Holmes. And so they created the new venture who saw a comb based upon maybe a scene from a previous right story and gets expanded upon it. And so when it when one of them passed away, the collection wound up in a bookstore in Berkeley, California, and crystal investor found out. And so there became a buying group led by John tough fellow, Kenny Greenwald, Dick Millen, Joey brewing and others, got in a bidding war with the Library of Congress, and they outbid and won. They paid $15,000 for the sets of Sherlock, Holmes and so and Shirley Boone was an NBC audio engineer and chief film engineer. He really knew how to dub, and so they they did a terrific job. And then they decided to put out a record album on their own with the first two episodes. And then after that, they decided to market it to Simon Schuster, and they decided to do small vignettes. They could copyright the vignette. These were quite three minutes introduction, so they would get Ben Wright, who wanted to always Sherlock Holmes and Peggy Webber in order to reminisce and or create little scenes to set up the stories that way they could copyright that part. They couldn't copyright the show because they fell in the public domain, right? But they wound up paying the estates of everybody anyway. But that's what how they all came out, and they were hoping to do Gunsmoke. We talked to Kenny Greenwald and others, but that never, that never came off and but that's part of the remarkable thing that Karl Marx done. He's been able to get into CBS, and I think he's working on NBC, and he licensed them, so he'll be able to get into the vault and get more stuff out for all of it to enjoy. And that's an amazing thing that Carl drives for the hobby is to get new stuff out there. It's been locked away for all these years.   Michael Hingson ** 53:53 I am just amazed at the high quality. I'd love to learn more about audio engineering to be able to do that, because I have a lot of recording I'd love to make a lot better than they are.   Walden Hughes ** 54:05 Yeah, Jerry Henry used to use a software called Diamond Cut, ah, and I would the those originally was used for the Edison solder records. And the guy who issued this, Joe, they developed the software. And that's where Joe, hi, who did so much transfer work, that was the program he wound up using to create good sound,   Michael Hingson ** 54:32 yeah, and, and did a lot of it,   Walden Hughes ** 54:36 yep, see there, see, there was a software, everybody, I think original is hardware. And I think originally almost was a $50,000 piece of equipment, harder before 2000 now it's gone to software base and a couple $1,000 that's another way. That's another program that people use to clean disk. Now. Crackles and pop out of the recording.   Michael Hingson ** 55:02 So but it's not just the snap crackle and pop. It's getting the the real fidelity back, the lows and the highs and all that you said, what was the one he used? Diamond Cut. Diamond Cut, yeah. Diamond Cut, yeah. But yeah. It's just amazing. The kinds of things that happen, like with the Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and and others.   Walden Hughes ** 55:23 But you also have good ears for that. Because, yeah, I remember about 2025, years ago, it was serious. XM. Everybody has this stereo sound, I know, if you're shooting, has a certain ambiance about it. And there were companies that were taking old time radio and creating that same effect, and that could bug me. I was so used to listen to old radio show in an analog feel about it. And they when they try to put false stereo in a recording, yeah, oh my gosh. It just didn't sound right. And so they've gotten away from that pill, a lot of new dubbing. They do don't have that. So it sounds terrific now, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 56:15 sounds a lot better. What do you think is the future of the hobby?   Walden Hughes ** 56:19 I think more and more stuff are coming out. A lot of stuff that were with agreements to hold on to the material have disappeared, because a lot of it is passing from generation to generation. And so I think over the next 10 years, you see so much more stuff coming out. In some ways, that's sort of what you John Larry and I do. We collect almost everything, just because you got to make sure it's captured for the for the next generation, even though we might not be listening to it. There's so much stuff we don't listen to do everything. But I think we're, we're short of the wide billions of old time radio so we try to capture all of it and preserve it on hard drives, yeah, but eventually it'll go to future generations. But I really think more and more stuff are coming out. I think with the yesterday USA, more and more people will find it. And I'm hoping, with creating new audio theater, I would like to reproduce the great radio scripts we have no recordings for, like one man, family, I love, a mystery, all those things. That's sort of what I want to do, is one of my goals. And I think be great to hear stories that we've all collected, that we wonder about, and to get audio production behind some of these scripts. And I think it's in very good shape. It will all come down to money, Michael, as you know, you know,   Michael Hingson ** 57:58 but I also think that it's important that we, as we're recreating the shows, that while we can, we have people who understand what we really need for actors who are going to be recreating the shows, are able to find the right people to do it, train them how to do it. I think that's so important.   Walden Hughes ** 58:19 I think so. I think, I think you find a lot of young people who like theater, who are not necessarily radio fan, if they came, if the radio fan, like Brian Henderson and people like that, they become really good actor because they love to listen to the shows ahead of time. Yeah. Beverly Washburn does the same. She likes hearing the original performances that way. She get field for me to the show. And I think you and I think Larry does it that way. And you might not necessarily want to copy everything, but you got a benchmark to work from, and you sort of know what, with the intent when   Michael Hingson ** 59:01 you say Larry, which Larry? Larry Gasman,   Walden Hughes ** 59:03 great, yeah. And I think that's a great help to study and listen how people did it, because I think a lot of old time radio, it's like the prime rib. It was the best of the best of all time of radio drama, and it's a great way to learn the craft, by listening to it and absorbing it.   Michael Hingson ** 59:30 Well, if people want to reach out to you and maybe learn more about yesterday, USA or reps and just talk with you about radio, how do they do that, they can give me a   Walden Hughes ** 59:41 call at 714-545-2071, that's my studio number for the radio stations. Lot of times I can, I'll pick it up and talk to on air, off air. They can always drop me an email Walden shoes at yesterday. Us. Dot com and happy the answer, you can always call my cell phone at 714-454-3281,   Walden Hughes ** 1:00:11 you can chase me down at over, at reps, at reps online.org. You know, get forward to me or spur vac at S, P, E, O, D, V, A, c.com, or you can even get hold of Michael Henson and Mike.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:26 You can always get a hold of me. And people know how to do that, and I will get them in touch with you as well, you bet. So I'm glad to do that. Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening. I hope you've enjoyed this. This is a little bit different than a lot of the podcast that we've done. But it is, it is so important to really talk about some of these kinds of concepts, and to talk about old radio and what it what it still adds and contributes to today. So I hope that you enjoyed it. I'd love to hear from you. Feel free to reach out to me. Michael H, i@accessibe.com that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, love to hear from you. Wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We value that a lot, and I hope that you'll go listen to YESTERDAY usa.com, or.net then again, in both, there's the red and the blue Network, or repsonline.com, and we, we have a lot of fun. Every so often we do trivia contests, and we'll take hours and and gentlemen in New Jersey and his wife, Johnny and Helen Holmes, come on and run the trivia, and it's a lot of fun, and you're welcome to add your answers to the trivia questions, and you can come on in here and learn how to even do it through the chat.   Walden Hughes ** 1:01:51 But my kids watch this every Friday night on, why USA too?   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:56 Yeah, I get to be on every Friday night, and that's a lot of fun. Yeah. So we'd love to hear from you, and we'd love you to to help us further enhance the whole concept of old radio show. So I want to thank you again. And if you know of other people who ought to be on the podcast, Walt, and of course, you as well as you know, please introduce us. We're always looking for more people to talk to us about whatever they want to talk about. So I want to again. Thank you all and for being here. And Walden, thank you for being here as well.   Walden Hughes ** 1:02:27 All right, Mike, I'll be talking a little while.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:33 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

WhoStephanie Cox, CEO of the National Ski PatrolRecorded onJune 3, 2025About National Ski PatrolFrom the organization's website:The National Ski Patrol is a federally-chartered 501(c)(3) nonprofit membership association. As the leading authority of on-mountain safety, the NSP is dedicated to serving the outdoor recreation industry by providing education and accreditation to emergency care and safety service providers.With a primary focus on education and training, the organization includes more than 30,000 members [Cox says 32,000 on the pod] serving 650 patrols in the U.S., Canada, Europe and Asia. Our members work on behalf of local ski/snowboard areas and bike parks to improve the overall experience for outdoor recreationalists. Members include ski and bike patrollers, mountain and bike hosts, alumni, associates, and physician partners.The National Ski Patrol operates as a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization, deriving its primary financial support from membership dues, donations, user fees, and corporate sponsorships. …The national office is located in Lakewood, Colorado, and is staffed with full-time employees that handle administrative duties.Why I interviewed herThe Storm focuses unapologetically on the lift-served variety of skiing. I'll often reinforce that point by teasing Uphill Bro for skiing in the wrong direction or making fun of myself for being a lazy U.S. American happy to ride a machine up the mountain. That, mostly, is a shtick to express my preference for an ordered ski experience over the wild variety. Acres of glades twisting down the mountainside – yes, please. But I'll also take that groomed run-out back to the six-pack. This all-you-can-eat variety of skiing feeds the adrenaline monster, stows energy for the bristling explosive down. The fun part. But my hyperbolic preference for the down is also a sort-of cover-up. Because what really glues me to the trail-labeled and lift-laced bumps is that gigantic and ever-present panic button floating alongside me: ski patrol.Oh I just ran into a tree? Well that's inconvenient because now I can't remember how to speak English or why I have eight empty Miller Lite cans in my backpack. But no need to fret. Within five minutes a corps of uniformed professionals specifically trained in the idiosyncratic art of piloting an injured moron down an ungroomed hillside on an eight-foot-long sled will materialize with crackling radios and stabilize me. It's kind of amazing. Like who thought of this? I guess the same person who came up with lifeguards at the beach. When a squirrel misses its branch and falls 75 feet to the forest floor there is no Squirrel 911. Just a variety of bobcats and coyotes who are about to find an easy dinner. Humans are quite amazing animals in this way, setting up systems both highly effective and borderline invisible that grant us wide margins of error to in most cases survive even catastrophic misjudgments.Depending on your view of human nature, the existence of ski patrol is either the most or least predictable miracle layer of organized commercial ski centers. The cynical may interpret this network of makeshift shacks and their occupants as liability shields, a legal hey-we-tried taskforce vaguely taming the chaos inherent in an impossible and awkward activity. But a more generous interpretation might view ski patrol as the most benevolent component of a ski area, the only piece not intended to generate income, an acknowledgement that any one of us, on even the gentlest slope, could in an instant need someone who knows exactly what to do.I prefer that latter interpretation, but the truth is of course a complex blend of the cynical and the generous viewpoints, interlaced with a million other factors. We are all vaguely aware of this, which doesn't mean we can explain it. I mean, why is ski patrol at every ski area? The question is both simplistic and baffling. Well of course there's ski patrol because there always is. OK. But shouldn't there be some live-free-or-die exception in the rowdy ski world of backwoods trails axe-cut by misanthropic good ole' boys putting two middle fingers to society's nine-to-five, collared-shirt expectations? Like “hey man, look at the waiver, if you break your leg it's not my goddamned problem.” But there they are, anyplace there's a ski lift, wearing that same plus-symbol uniform, enforcing that same yellow-signed skier code, blanketed with that same aura of stoic unsurprise and readiness: ski patrol. Is this omnipresence simply custom and tradition? State or federal law? Insurance requirement? Do patrollers work for the ski area or for some agency or entity? An imposition like restaurant food inspectors? Enforcers like a city's police department? Attendants like stadium ushers? It's hard to say without asking, so I asked.What we talked aboutTouring ski patrols across America; #SkiVirginia; Ski Patrol's philosophical evolution over time; patrol saving my butt in Maine; how NSP ensures that patrollers are prepared to deal with the worst injuries at even the smallest ski areas; evolving and adapting over time; “this organization is by and large run by volunteers”; Avy dogs; why ski patrol is everywhere; organizational history; the relationship between NSP and individual ski areas; who funds NSP; paid versus volunteer patrollers; “one of my big goals for the organization is to make sure that all patrols fall under the NSP shield”; a couple of major ski area patrols that are not part of NSP; the general public “is not going to notice the difference” between a paid and volunteer patroller; where most of the paid patrollers work, and why; the amazing number of years the average volunteer patroller commits to the work; the rising cost of living in mountain towns; why NSP does not involve itself in pay or benefits conversations between patrollers and resorts; staying neutral on unionization drives; what it means to modernize NSP; and applying tech to help police on-mountain collisions.What I got wrong* I referenced a recent snowless winter at Wintergreen, Virginia, and said it was “in 21/22 or 22/23.” It was the winter of 2022-23, which, according to Snow Brains, was the ski area's third snowless winter in a decade, after the 2016-17 and 2018-19 campaigns.* At one point in our conversation, I mentioned “voluntary volunteers.” Which I don't know Man talking is hard I guess.Why now was a good time for this interviewI'd initially reached out to Cox as a follow-up to my podcast conversation with United Mountain Workers union President Max Magill, conducted in the wake of the December-to-January Park City patrol strike that leveled the ski area and sent owner Vail Resorts spiraling:National Ski Patrol, it turns out, has no involvement in or position on unionization. That was a bit of a record scratch but also clarifying: patrol union drives, at least for now, lack a national sponsor that could propel the movement to critical mass. Still, it seemed odd that a national organization's most visible umbrella would stand neutral on the trajectory of a tectonic movement flexing against consolidating, ever-more-distant management and escalating mountain-town affordability crises. So we talked about it a bit anyway.What I've learned, 212 episodes into The Storm, is that organizations and entities are rarely – maybe never – what you expect them or want them to be. In episode 11, recorded in January 2020, just a few months after The Storm's launch, I asked Win Smith, then National Ski Areas Association board chair and onetime owner of Sugarbush, the now very-innocent-seeming question of what the organization was doing to subsidize small or independent ski areas. Smith patiently explained that the NSAA was a trade organization, not a charity (I'm paraphrasing), and that their mission was education, lobbying, and helping to establish uniform operating standards and best practices, not a U.N.-style stabilizing force money-cannoning resources where necessary. I get that now, and have developed, through extensive interaction with the group, a deep appreciation for what the NSAA is and does, even if it is not the thing 2020 Stu thought it was or should be.I guess that's the point of The Storm Skiing Podcast: a dumb guy asking dumb questions like “so when are you going to build a gondola over Interstate 90 to connect Alpental to the rest of Summit at Snoqualmie?” and letting the nice smart people say “well wouldn't that be nice but we have other priorities,” when they mean, “sure let me pull $100 million out of my back pocket to build a more-or-less useless lift that would also spark two decades of environmental litigation and has as much chance of clearing airspace over a federal road as a Russian stealth bomber.” Luckily I don't mind asking dumb questions. They emerge from an impulse to sort reality from fiction, to tell the story of modern lift-served skiing by tapping the brains who understand some little corner of it. Podcast NotesOn recent Ski Patrol leadershipThis could maybe go under the sometimes-included “questions I wish I'd asked” section, but really I don't wish I'd asked about it, as I have inherently little interest in organizational human drama, or the appearance of such. In this case, that maybe-drama is the rapid recent turnover in NSP leadership, aptly described by Jason Blevins last year in The Colorado Sun:The former executive director of the nonprofit World Child Cancer heath organization arrived at the National Ski Patrol two years ago, becoming the fourth director of the organization in only five years. The former bosses reported conflicts with the group's member-elected board of directors. An online petition was calling for an overhaul of the venerable organization that formed in 1938. Staff were bailing after years of turmoil that included board members twice suing their own organization. The group was losing its relevance in a quickly shifting ski resort industry.Cox landed with a plan. She started visiting ski patrols across the country. She shepherded an overhaul of the organization's training programs. She enlisted staff and kept them onboard. She mended fences with her board.Whatever happened before, Cox just hit her third anniversary with the organization, and I was mostly interested in her efforts to modernize the 87-year-old NSP.On skier visit numbers nationally and in ColoradoColorado annually accounts for nearly one in four U.S. skier visits. Here's the breakdown from last winter, according to the Kotke end-of-year survey, the definitive statistical ski industry report published annually by the NSAA:On breaking my leg at Black Mountain of MaineMost of you are tired of hearing about this, but if you're new here, this is my big ski-patrol-saves-my-ass story:On federal chartersAn important piece of the NSP why-does-it-exist puzzle is its status, since 1980, as a federally chartered nonprofit organization. Congress charters such organizations “to carry out some regional or national public purpose,” according to a 2022 report on congress.gov. As with just about anything, a comprehensive list is frustratingly difficult to find (that's why I moonlight as ski area spreadsheet mad scientist), but federally chartered organizations include such vaunted entities as the American Red Cross, the Boy and Girl Scouts of America, and Disabled American Veterans. Here's a probably-not-entirely-accurate list on Wikipedia, and a government list from 1994.On “14 patrols unionizing across the west”Here's a list I compiled of unionized ski area groups back in January. I haven't updated it, so there may be a few additions since:On Snow AngelsThis is a pretty good gut-check conversation for the Speed Gods among us:On Wachusett's anti-theft systemSki theft sucks, and some ski areas are better at fighting it than others. One of the best I'm aware of is Wachusett, Massachusetts, which has installed a comprehensive system of ski-rack-to-parking-lot cameras that has reduced thieves' success rate to near zero. “A lot of times, the police will be waiting for them when they get home with the stolen board,” longtime Wachusett President Jeff Crowley told me on a 2022 visit to the ski area.The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing all year long. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

In this powerful episode of Unstoppable Mindset, I sit down with Raheem Lindsey, a man whose life journey defies the odds. Born three months premature and raised in a challenging environment shaped by his mother's drug addiction, foster care, abuse, and incarceration, Raheem shares how faith and purpose led him to become a minister and founder of Relentless Living Online Ministries.   Raheem walks us through the transformative power of self-reflection, accountability, and a deep commitment to servant leadership. He introduces his "Relentless Living Pyramid"—Consumer, Service, Leadership—as a model for turning personal pain into purpose. His message: don't chase money, chase purpose, because purpose leaves a legacy.   Michael and Raheem explore how faith becomes the anchor in moments of doubt and how seeing past our circumstances can help us step into leadership. Today, Raheem is transitioning from construction to full-time ministry and speaking, using his story to inspire others to lead with empathy and serve where they've been broken and healed.   Listeners are encouraged to connect with Raheem at raheemlindsey81@gmail.com or via his Relentless Living YouTube channel.   Tune in for an unforgettable conversation that proves anyone—no matter their start—can lead an unstoppable life of service and significance.     About the Guest:   Hello, I'm RaHeem Lindsey, which means "merciful one" or "one who establishes a deep connection." I'm 43 years old, born on August 12th. I'm a father of three, husband, entrepreneur, and servant of God. My purpose is to please God and serve His people. I believe life is not about personal gain, but about serving and impacting others. As a follower of Jesus Christ, I strive to make a positive difference in the world. Growing up, I faced significant challenges. My father was murdered when I was 15, and I overcame foster care after experiencing abuse at a young age. Despite these difficulties, I'm grateful for my journey and the lessons I've learned. I come from a humble background, raised by a single mother in government housing. However, I've learned to see these experiences as opportunities for growth and blessing. My story is one of resilience and determination. As an empath, servant, student, and leader, my goal is to impact the world in the name of Christ Jesus. I'm driven to serve others and make a positive difference. I love and bless everyone, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to share my story.   Ways to connect with RaHeem:   https://youtube.com/@rltalkrelentlesslivingglob7210?si=0Km3z7m7Ie_e2Ul4 https://open.spotify.com/show/5Mr5x2456rf31d7R36bfmv?si=ZUCs8yBaSJG664vFeuHoCQ https://www.instagram.com/relen_tlessliving?igsh=aW53b3RhcXc1ZWFv&utm_source=qr     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:17 Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. And today, by my standards, we have a guest who really is unstoppable. You know, one of the things that I hear regularly from people who talk to me about my own experiences of being in the World Trade Center is it's amazing what you went through and how you survived, and you're resilient and all that. I don't think tend to think a whole lot about that. I understand what people are saying, but our guest today, RaHeem Lindsay, I think, has a much more resilient and unstoppable story than I do. A lot of people might disagree, but that's okay. We're both we're both unstoppable, and I think most people are more unstoppable than they think they are. It's just that we tend to underrate ourselves. But we're going to hear a great story today, and I know Raheem has got a lot to tell us. So Rahim, let's start by welcoming you to unstoppable mindset.   RaHeem Lindsey ** 02:18 Thank you, Michael, such a pleasure and an honor to be a guest on your podcast. It's really an honor. I couldn't believe that you actually have reached out to me when you did. I was like, Really, I'm just very flattered, because just to have to have accomplished the feats that you have, and yourself you're you're a definition of relentless living, which is the name of my online ministry, relentless living, refusing to take no for an answer. You know, seeing life's obstacles as opportunities, things of that nature, right? That that resilience, that that that grit, that fortitude, that we all have, but we have to be willing to embrace in order to go forward in life,   Michael Hingson ** 03:01 right? I agree. Well, tell me, what? What does Raheem   RaHeem Lindsey ** 03:05 mean? It means merciful.   Michael Hingson ** 03:09 There you go. Yes, sir, you're, you're committed, right from the name,   RaHeem Lindsey ** 03:14 yes, absolutely yes. And it's funny that you asked that, Michael, because in totality, so Raheem, Lamar Lindsay, so in totality, it means Merciful One, one who establishes a deep connection, which very well fits me, defines me to a T cool   Michael Hingson ** 03:31 well, and I'm really looking forward to hearing a lot more about that. Why don't we start by you telling us a little bit about kind of the early Raheem, growing up and and I know that that's an integral part of your story, is you get a little bit older, if you will. But tell us about you growing up and all that.   RaHeem Lindsey ** 03:49 Okay, so Raheem growing up, I like to tell individuals, friends, etc, that I am, I'm I'm well, I'm well, diverse when it comes to my my growing up as a young man into adulthood, I have a mixed upbringing. I was raised with my mother, right? And then I was actually, let's start here. I was born in Houston, Texas. I left there as an infant, okay, and as a infant, I was hospitalized because I was born premature at six months years old. I mean, at six months old, rather, what did you weigh? I weighed, oh, my goodness. Oh, I was about six, so I six pounds or so. Was that   Michael Hingson ** 04:41 I was born premature about two months, and I weighed two pounds, 13 ounces, so I was a little   RaHeem Lindsey ** 04:47 Okay, and it might be less than that, actually, just to be honest with you, Michael, it's been quite some time I would have to ask my mother   Michael Hingson ** 04:54 you don't remember, huh?   RaHeem Lindsey ** 04:57 But, but long story short. Up, though, and that's really amazing that we have, that that's another connection that we have, as well as being, you know, individuals that are resilient, that are relentless, right? And so I was hospitalized in the incubator for the first, I believe, what two months of my life, I had to be fed through an IV in my head, actually. So it was, it was very, was a very tough   Michael Hingson ** 05:24 time for you. Were one of those people who lost eyesight because you were in an incubator.   RaHeem Lindsey ** 05:30 Oh, my goodness. So yours is. Your journey has been from birth, right? Okay, wow, wow. Come on. Wow.   Michael Hingson ** 05:41 You know, the the issue is that medical science, when I was born, wasn't ready to believe although some doctors were starting to recognize it and say it, but most doctors were not ready to admit that even too much oxygen could be a bad thing. And the result was that the retina didn't develop properly. But that didn't happen for everyone, but they also eventually did figure it out. And so a lot of times, children aren't necessarily given an absolute pure oxygen environment nowadays for 24 hours a day, just depends on what they weigh and what's needed, and it can still be that a person could lose eyesight if they're in an incubator with a pure oxygen environment. But medical science understands it a lot more now. So it doesn't happen like it did back in the 1950s where we actually because of the number of premature births, lower the age, the average age of blind people from 67 to 65 years just because of premature birth.   RaHeem Lindsey ** 06:43 Interesting. Okay, wow.   Michael Hingson ** 06:47 So anyway, you were so you were put in an incubator   RaHeem Lindsey ** 06:50 for a while. Yes, no, I was put in incubator for a while. And so I went through that opportunity of resilience. It started at a young age for us both, right? I don't want to say an issue. I don't like to really use that word. I say opportunities for growth and development, right? Because while we might have had an area of concern, let's say that it, it enabled us in other ways, right? It made us more resilient, more more built for the race, right to go forth in the future, right? So that's awesome. So in the incubator, and then raised with my mother, of course, up until the age of seven. Right now, here's my life begins to take a another dramatic turn. My mother, at the time, was battling a crack addiction. God bless her heart, okay, and but much respect to her. I never lost not one ounce of respect for her, because she always remained a mother to me, even over even, you know, facing those odds, right, facing the the adversity of that she still remained a mother, and I appreciate that. And so with my mother, while being a Christian woman, a woman of faith, as I am, a Christian man myself, she was still, she was a believer, but also still in the world, not fully transitioned, as most of us have. We all go through that time in our lives where we're still, you know, trying to make that full transition. And matter of fact, honestly, we will always be in the event, in the race of transition throughout our entire lives, because we'll never have it fully correct, or know everything for that matter, right? So anyhow, my mother, she was following a crack addiction at the moment, and so I had a family member that ended up calling Child Protective Services on my mother, an older cousin, so I ended up going into the foster care system. I was in the foster care system for a round just under a year, I'd say, seven to eight months during this time while in the foster care system, I was beaten and molested, all while staying right next door to a cousin. But at the time, I'm only seven, going into eight years old, right? So for me, as much as I wanted to reach out and I wanted to make this known, I felt, I felt conflicted once again, I'm still an adolescent, right? I'm still a child,   Michael Hingson ** 09:49 yeah, so you don't have the tools yet to really deal with that.   RaHeem Lindsey ** 09:54 Absolutely, yes, exactly, not having the tools yet necessary to deal with that. Certain. Stance. So I was very reclusive, and I never mentioned it to anyone. So about let me see seven, eight months was my stay there, my aunt Andrea, my great aunt, ended up getting custody of me, which is my mother's aunt, my great aunt, etc, end up getting custody of me. Now, once again, mentioning my mother was always in a very deep rooted transition, both battling addiction and just her personal life itself, and also being a woman of faith. So my mother, my upbringing with her was not as structured as, say, it should have been, but I grew up, my mother cared and she was very hands on, but yet and still, she was a single parent, and so I somebody grew up in in the streets a bit, if you will, okay,   Michael Hingson ** 11:06 your father wasn't around at all. No,   RaHeem Lindsey ** 11:08 my father was not around at all. Okay. And funny story mentioning the father, he was in my life up until about four years old, and then my mother and him had separated, and they were, you know, in other relationships, whatever have you. And I went to visit him. One day, my mother took me to visit him, and he asked me, Hey, who's your dad? Now, me not having a normal, typical, constant relationship of seeing him on a regular basis. I say my mother, I mean my wife. I mean, I'm sorry, my mother's boyfriend at the time and so kind of all hell broke loose with that. He wanted nothing else to do with me. Keep in mind, I'm only four at the time, right? So from that point, yes, so from that point forward, he was out of my life. Okay? So now we fast forward back again to getting in custody with my aunt. My aunt has gained custody of me after getting out of the foster home. So with my aunt, my aunt Andrea, my great aunt, with her, the home is very structured. It's just me and her, her only child, which is my older cousin, Todd. He's in the Air Force, whatever have you. He's in his mid 20s at the time. Okay, okay, and so it's just me and my aunt Andre so with her very structured. Sunday church, Sunday evening church, Wednesday, youth night church, if church was open, we were attending. And it wasn't enough to just attend. We had to be operating. We had to be serving in some capacity. So I was involved in, you know, the youth crowd, any and everything that had to do where we could serve in the church we were doing it. And so that helps create kind of a illustration, if you will, a visual of who Rahim is. I am, both one who is street smart, also one of I love to seek Intel. I love to read. I am a avid reader, so forth and so on. That was very much encouraged within the household with my aunt, so she very much stressed those areas. I was made to memorize Scripture and so forth in her household, things of that nature. Got involved in activities outside of school, baseball, things of that nature. So that helps bring you to who I am today, as of relentless living. To kind of give you a a quick synopsis, if you will, because I know we know we like to talk about some other topics and so forth, but that gives you a bit of my background and who I am. So I tell people I'm very textured, for that matter.   Michael Hingson ** 14:07 So what, what did you do, school wise? Then, once you were growing up,   RaHeem Lindsey ** 14:14 school wise. So I, you know, went through, you know, the elementary and so forth, as everyone else does. I ended up dropping out my 11th no my senior year, I dropped out. Reason being, I was working, obtained a full time job, and I was kind of in that time as most of us are exploring the world, getting to know myself as a young man and a young adult, if you will. So there's the girl aspect, right? Then there's, you know, hey, rahims, now I have a job, so I'm bringing in my own finances. So I. Have responsibility of self, and also being back in the presence of my mother, because my mother gained custody of me again after about three to four years with my aunt. So she battled, she overcame her crack addiction and also regained custody of me. So kudos to her. So being back in the presence of my mother, she always instilled responsibility upon me. She's very big on that, so I'll be responsible for, say, a particular bill. Maybe it was the electricity bill. Obviously, not as high as they are now, right? The economy's changed. Their face changed. So not as much, right? Now we're talking, you know, hundreds of dollars, you know, when then it was like, you know, hey, maybe you know, 150 you know, for light bill. No big deal. So, and those things just helped me to learn about responsibility at a early age as a young man, setting me up also for future success, I will say, so school, so I dropped out. Like I said, 12th grade year I was I got in a little bit of trouble. I always had a great head on my shoulder. Always had great values and morale. But as we all know, bad nature or Bad company corrupts good nature, Bad company corrupts good nature. And so it is not enough to simply do well on your own. It was never meant for us to do anything simply on our own, because you can't be great alone. It takes a team. It takes a strategic alliance of a group of individuals. It may be somewhat semi minute. It could be Lacher, depending upon the need and the desire and the the vision itself. But you cannot be great yourself. It takes a team. And so I tended to I would do well for such a period of time, I was always very much into church, but then there's that street side of Raheem, and I have some street friends, so therefore I would find myself regressing, or rather, let's say, digressing, from the progress that I've made because of my choice of friends. Now, not all of them were in the streets, per se. Others were doing well and focused on the future and doing an accomplishing great things on the positive note. But there's that conflict, right? I've got this internal conflict because my homeboys, you know, and so forth from my mother's end of, you know, the spectrum, you know, we're in the streets, we're products of the environment, right? And it's very easy to become a product of your environment, and then also to get to a point where you sever some of those relationships, not because that's so you're too good, because you've outgrown such a thing, and you've been outside of the environment. So if you see better, logically and hopefully, we will then do better. So it was conflicted, so I I got in a bit of trouble, you know, throughout my childhood and and young adulthood, from, I say, at the time of 14 to, oh goodness, mid 20s, maybe about 2627 I would, you know, I do well, and then I would have a issue, you know, with the law. You know, I was, there was times when I was younger, I know, broken into homes, things of that nature, and it would be quite, I wouldn't even say, like, quite unexpected to those who knew me and had relationships with me, because I was, I was a great person. I really was, you know, good morale, good values, things of that nature, but when I got around the wrong company, then there we have it. Now, Rahim is no longer who I know to be, but I'm who I was, or the tainted version of Raheem, and not the more fulfilled, better version of Raheem, for lack of better terms. So I went through, you know, in and out the system for a while. You know, I've been in on the in the county jails. I've did a year in the penitentiary at one point in time. But I saw this to say, for anyone that has battled such things, no matter what it is, Do not despise it, because, because, because of those situations, it has helped make me who I am today. So I'm able to help other individuals who have battled or in the same storms as I face and I stand today before you as a victor, victorious over those. Circumstances, adverse situations and so forth and so what nearly killed me is situations for yourself. Michael, what nearly you know killed you things that you thought were nearly impossible to get out of, challenges that we face, so much adversity, that caused so much pain, that caused us to have to be resilient because we had no other choice. Right, right? What nearly killed us. Now we can reach back and bring life unto others, because we were able to overcome it, but I have to go here because me, being a man of faith, I will say, not by our power nor our strength, but by God's Spirit. Thus saith the Lord, because of that, because ourselves, we're not capable of such things on our own. We're just not it would be insane to think that we could do the things that we have accomplished, and furthermore that we will accomplish going forward without a divine entity, without divine help, because some things are simply limited to the the carnal existence of   Michael Hingson ** 21:05 being, did you ever, did you ever finish high school?   RaHeem Lindsey ** 21:09 I Okay. So, great question. Michael, so when I was in the penitentiary for a year, I actually ended up getting my GED. So I was, I came up. I had the mindset like, you know, what, if I want to be here, I'm going to, I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to use the system against itself. So, okay, I'm going to be here. You will pay for my education. I'm going to better myself while I'm here. I'm not going to, you know, be depressed and be in this, this slump of a mind state and existence of being No, I want to better myself and come out with a vengeance to succeed and be a better version of Rahim. Rahim, 2.0   Michael Hingson ** 21:48 Did you? Did you ever go into college after you got out of the penitentiary and all that?   RaHeem Lindsey ** 21:53 Absolutely, yes, I did. I did not finish, not because I could not, not because I didn't have the intellect, just simply I didn't have the motivation to stay in tune with it, because and now seeing Hindsight is 2020, it wasn't my purpose. Wasn't connected to my purpose, added value to who I am. It helped me to find my purpose, but it wasn't my purpose. So I ended up going to college for Business Administration for a little under a year, Phoenix University, online, okay? And then another time I went for personal training. I've always been a fitness head, so forth and so on. So I love you know, to have, you know, a good overall health, along with, you know, a good mindset, so forth, mind, body, spirit, right,   Michael Hingson ** 22:47 right. So what did you do then, from a job or profession standpoint, to support yourself?   RaHeem Lindsey ** 22:57 Okay? So throughout those times, a lot of times, I delved in sales. I'm very much a people person, so being a store manager at one point in time of GNC, okay, telemarketing, oh, my God, an array of things usually having to do with retail. Because, like I said, once again, I'm very much a people person. I'm an introvert, but I'm a, I mean, I'm an extrovert, but I'm an introvert. When it comes to my issues, I don't share a lot of my issues with   Michael Hingson ** 23:31 individuals. That's fine. Okay, so you did, you did a lot of sales, and yes, and I think that's a very honorable profession, having been in sales for many years in my life as well. Okay, what did sales teach you? What did what did you? How did it help you grow as an individual?   RaHeem Lindsey ** 23:54 Sales taught me how to be a great consumer. Because in order to be a great salesman, you need to consume the needs of others. What's why, who, when, where. I love that I will, I will say in part, I learned from GNC, because when you're trying to sell, I don't sell. I like to build relationships and a rapport. So henceforth, once again, the who, what, who, what, why, when, where. Why are you doing these things? What are you doing this for? When do you plan on achieving the goal that you want? Etc, etc. So being a great consumer helps you to be a great salesman, because then you make it personal when you ask these questions.   Michael Hingson ** 24:48 Well, yeah. And you also learn how to be a good communicator if you're doing a decent job,   RaHeem Lindsey ** 24:55 yes, as well, absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 25:00 I unexpectedly ended up going into sales, but I've learned those same basic tenants and those same basic things. And the reality is, you learn to be a good communicator, and you also learn that ultimately, good sales people really don't sell anything. First of all, the customers really got to want to buy it. And the good sales people guide customers to find what it is they really need. And I know I've had situations where my product wouldn't do what the customer wanted, and the last thing I would want to do would be to and I probably could have done it, convince them to buy my product anyway, even though it might not do everything, because I knew that come back to bite me.   RaHeem Lindsey ** 25:46 Yes, absolutely. Michael, I so concur. Um, touching on that real quick. So exactly the same thing with me, right? I would never sell a individual on something just because it was the item of the week, so to speak, right? We would have conference calls, and so we have, you know, one item, maybe two items, for the week that were the main point of sale, make sure that we're pushing this item to each and every customer, while I would offer that I was more in tune and cared about what they needed and what they wanted. So those questions we spoke about briefly here just a moment ago. And so by doing that, as you said, you develop a rapport and trust. They trust you now because they know that you're just you're just not going to give them any product, sell them any product just for the sake of the monetary gain, but we want you to get what you truly need. We want to make sure that your needs are met, and so they'll come back. And that's how you establish, you know, long term Jeopardy and long term relationships with customers, and then customers become friends clients, and there you have it, and that's how you know, you establish it and build from there. Absolutely what you said.   Michael Hingson ** 27:09 Did you ever have situations where your boss is wanting you to sell a product and you knew that it wasn't going to be what a particular customer wanted? Did you ever have some discussions or conversations with your bosses about that kind of thing.   RaHeem Lindsey ** 27:24 Did I ever have a conversation with them about that indirect, indirectly, that usually it went over well, once again, it's not about what you say, but it's how you say it, right? Michael, so I would say, what ifs what if I have a customer that is not in need of this particular product, but I mentioned it to them, so I'm still doing my job, right? I'm still doing as directed by the superiors. So I'm asking, What do you think about this product? Now, here's the funny thing, though, when we're dealing with, you know, GNC, right? So it's vitamins. There's a lot of things that compliment the other so sometimes, while not really pushing that specifically, I would say, hey, based upon your needs. I recommend this, but just so happens only if it was applicable, this product here will enhance your will enhance the results that you're looking for. And so I would present that to my superiors, my manager, because I was a store manager myself at my own store. So I would present that to them, and they would say, okay, Raheem, Hey, as long as you're, you know, mentioning the product, and you are pushing the product, to some extent, that's fine, okay, so that ended up working out for me, right?   Michael Hingson ** 29:03 So how long did you sell for? GNC?   RaHeem Lindsey ** 29:06 Ah, GNC, I sold for a little over a year. I enjoyed that. That's one of my favorite jobs. One of my most favorite jobs that I've ever had was GNC, just being able to serve. Being able to serve Michael is my thing. I find myself when I'm not able to serve others, I'm not content, right? I'm not I don't feel miserable at times, because I really live to serve. I have the heart of a servant.   Michael Hingson ** 29:41 So what did you do after GNC?   RaHeem Lindsey ** 29:43 After GNC, let's see here, after GNC, I was in restaurant for a minute. Worked at Five Guys Burgers as a store manager there. Also I'm an entrepreneur. I started. In a fried ice cream business? Yes, absolutely. So fried ice cream the first of its kind, right? Ever put into pints and gallons? Okay, so I started that myself back in 2017 the funny way that that even came about was I had lost my job building house trusts. Okay, so I've also done construction, which I'm in now. Currently, I do construction. I do concrete right now, but in this season of time, at the age that I am, I'll be 44 in August, everything is about purpose. Everything is about purpose. And I feel the Lord definitely pulling me more into that direction and being more in tune with that. So henceforth, opportunities like this to be on this podcast, this is in alignment with purpose. But anyhow, so 2017 I started the ice cream. I fried ice cream led me into being into retail for myself. I was in the mall twice. I had a few partnerships with a few local restaurants and so forth and so on. I was supposed to be on food, carnival foods, but I ended up missing that. I had a Oh my God, has some meaning of some sort. I end up missing that. So I fried ice cream was actually supposed to be on Carnival foods on Food Network. So we make quite a bit of feats and accomplishments with that. So there's that. And then I've also, like I said, the construction, telemarketing, my gosh, what else have I done? Probably more sales. And like I said, most recent, I'm in concrete construction. I've been doing that over the last three years, and so that kind of brings you to current but I'm kind of growing quite weary of it, just because I know that I have a story, I have a message. There's some things that God has put on my heart to teach as a minister, as a servant, as an evangelist, so many things that that that wrap up and make up Raheem, I don't put one title on myself, because the Lord has allowed Me and enabled me to be many things due to what I've endured throughout my life, has given me that, you know, variation of existence.   Michael Hingson ** 32:31 So, so tell me more about what you're looking at in terms of being an evangelist and so on, what you're what you're moving toward, and what you think you're   RaHeem Lindsey ** 32:40 going to do. So Well, I'll say, you know, right now, over the last, oh, my god, probably see three, three going, Whoa. No, four years. Let's say four years. Online ministry has been my go to my YouTube channel. Very much, relentless living online ministries where, you know, I do reels, so forth and so on. Really wanting to, I want to do much more than just give a word, but in today's society, you kind of draw them in more with the short term, you know, short term memory is very, very dominant anymore. We're not as much as consumers as we once were. And I think that's just due to the the way of, you know, the AIS and technology and so forth. It's made mankind a bit lazy if you let, if you let. Now, it's also very innovative and creative. And it challenges us to go further in our you know, our mindset, our cerebral capacity and so forth. So it can make you lazy if you allow it. By the same time, it can challenge you and allow you to express yourself in new ways and insight and creativity if you let it, such as myself, yourself, others, etc. So, but just you know, teaching others how to understand the word more, also giving, showing truth and Revelation through the word that applies to your everyday life, that will inspire, that will encourage and edify you, and then also helping you to be able to build business from it, which I've done and and and coaching and things of that nature. It's such a variation of it, but all stemming from what I shared earlier, which is, well, I didn't completely share, but I like to call it my relentless living pyramid. And the base of it is being a consumer. The middle of it servant in the peak is leadership, being a leader, but the most important is being a great consumer, because in order to be a great leader, he was first be a great consumer. Take in the needs, evaluate the. Needs of others. Do an assessment, if you will, right. And then, based upon that, we can better serve who are. Demographic is our tribe is right. And then, as we prove ourselves, we develop a rapport, friendships, so forth and so on. And now there's trust, and when there's trust, people allow you to lead them. And then, in order to remain a great leader, I like to call a servant leader, because the greatest leaders are servant leaders, because a great leader has to be a servant to remain a leader. And so you repeat that process in order to remain relevant, whether it's in marriage, business school, you name it, the relentless living pyramid applies for every facet of life. So in that space alone allows me I see myself speaking engagements, coaching, leadership, development. There's so much that comes from that space and that pyramid, because it applies to everything. And I've been through a lot, if I haven't been through it myself. Personally, I know someone close to me who has so that's the great thing about acknowledging and knowing from what you've come from and not despising it, but instead seeing that as a vehicle of momentum, as long as you have changed and learn from your mistakes, right to become better, that is actually added value, because now you can teach others where you did not fail at because you got through it. So remember that God brings you to it. To bring you through it, the storm that you face today is not to kill you. It's not to stop you, but it's meant to propel you. Because you are eagles. We are eagles. Eagles fly a fly with the storm. They fly towards the storm and use the momentum of the storm to carry them into the next destiny, step, destination for us, purpose. So do not see the storm as a opposition. See it as a opportunity for growth, development, pruning so   Michael Hingson ** 37:26 you you emphasize faith a lot. Yes, tell me. Tell me more about faith and what how you define it. And another question I would ask is, what role do you believe that faith plays in discovering your purpose? Okay? A lot of questions   RaHeem Lindsey ** 37:44 there. Okay, okay, okay, yes, absolutely, okay. I'll start the last one because that because I remember that one best. So okay, what role does faith play in finding purpose? Correct? Michael, yeah, okay, so I'll start with this. I guess maybe I could call it my mantra for relentless living ministries. And this will sum it up. And then I will go into more in depth, live in pursuit of your God given purpose, and then you will find life and life more abundantly. But how do you find your purpose? Okay, so how do you find your purpose? I want to start here. I believe you for myself speaking, I believe you have to incorporate God, because how can you find purpose if you do not include the One who created you with a purpose for himself, I believe is the purpose. So now further going, going even more in depth, finding purpose, going through the obstacles, going through the storms. So me going through being in the system as a adult, a young adult, me going through being in the foster care system as a child. Me going through being beaten and molested. Me going through being the black sheep of the family. Me going through at times, being deserted, okay, sometimes not being liked, not because of who I am, but because of who I am, because of a light that is in me, because of my faith, because of my belief, right? So being facing the facing the trials and the tribulations. Each and everything that you face and that you overcome helps establish you into walking into your divine purpose. I believe that your divine purpose is based upon everything that you have overcome, because most of us, and matter of fact, I can almost guarantee all of us in some way, shape or form, what we have gone through has helped shape our future. It's inevitable what we go through helps to shape our future. That's why decisions are so important. The decisions that we make today will affect our tomorrow. So everything that I've gone through in my past has. Purposed me to be able to help those that are in the same situation that I face, to help them overcome. Like I said, What nearly killed us will nearly kill the individuals that will be watching this podcast that they've endured, the trials, the hardship carrying their own cross, if you will. But yet they survive. Yet they're victorious. It's a reason why you're victorious. So you have to become what you were meant to say. So to speak for those that are you know men and women of faith, everybody knows Jesus, our Lord and Savior. Okay, I'll just go. I'm just going to go here. Scripture says, He who was, I'm sorry, He who knew no sin became sin. You have to become what you want to overcome. You have to go through what you are meant to overcome. Because if you don't endure it, you can't overcome it. There is no testimony without the test going here, being chosen, right? And being chosen, I believe, is part of purpose, because you're chosen for a something we're chosen for a someone you know in marriage, right? There's a someone we're chosen for that we choose, they choose us. So everyone wants to be chosen. Everyone wants to be the one, until they find out how much it cost, because to be chosen, it will cost you something, and it will cost you everything. To be chosen, it's cost you a lot, Michael, to be the man who you are today. It didn't just drop off the sky to you. Wasn't just fed to you. You had to endure some things, some hardships, some struggles, but you turned them into opportunities. Nonetheless. This is why you stand here today as the strong man that you are, because you never gave up. You remained relentless in the face of adversity.   Michael Hingson ** 42:04 So how do people learn to recognize that, and learn to recognize whether they're making the right choices?   RaHeem Lindsey ** 42:12 Okay, great question. So how do people learn to recognize that? I think the recognition is easy when we take ourselves out of the equation, and we look at it from a broader scope. And stop looking at why me, like in the, in the in the in the victim perspective, and think, Why me so the why me. The second why me is, why am I enduring this? There has to be a reason for this. Now, some things are self inflicted, and some things happen. Life happens. But even within that, there's always a lesson to be learned. Always lesson to be learned if we want to evolve now the lessons there, whether we like it or not, but we have to choose to want to see it, or we can be naive and we can neglect the fact that this has happened, and we can play the victim in every world and every role. Or we can choose to see that, hey, I'm victorious. I did overcome this, whether it's self inflicted or just life happened. But the easy way to know about these things are, I think every experience will increase the knowledge of the knowing.   Michael Hingson ** 43:33 But what I'm getting at, I think, is that in reality, until you are willing to stop and analyze and look at what you're doing, look at what's happened, look at why it's happened, and listen to your inner voice, if you will. Yes, that guides you until you're willing to do all of that, it's really very difficult to find out what your purpose ought to be or how you should proceed, and that's the thing that most people don't do, is take the time to be self analytical.   RaHeem Lindsey ** 44:10 Come on, absolutely. Michael, I agree 100% Absolutely. We don't take the time to be self analytical, and that it takes, it takes courage to do that, because sometimes we don't want to look at the reflection that's in the mirror. We brother, you know, cast the, you know, the judgment or the the you know, it's someone else's fault, play someone else at fault, the situation's fault. Oh, you know, I'm always, you know, the innocent one, but yet, at most times, if we're really honest with ourselves, we are our own worst enemy, and it's very unfortunate, and so that's why it's very necessary to confront ourselves on a daily basis and hold ourselves accountable. It so that we can have positive growth and development, because where there's accountability, there's also confrontation, whether it's with yourself or can be with others. Now, confrontation is good. There's good confrontation and bad confrontation, but ultimately, confrontation is good, because confrontation there has to be something confronted, and so something is a dress, then we cannot, we can't cover we can't we can't address it unless it's been spoken of, unless it's been, you know, brung up, right? We have to address it. So with that comes, you know, the accountability, and so accountability requires being uncomfortable   Michael Hingson ** 45:52 Well, or it requires that you recognize that there are lessons to be learned Absolutely, and you go out and recognize that you're going to be your best teacher and that you need to learn them. How do people overcome self doubt when they're when they're going through life and so on? How do you how do you get beyond all the self doubt? I think we've talked about it some, but, you know, I'm curious to see if you want to add   RaHeem Lindsey ** 46:17 to that absolutely, I'd love to Michael, so overcoming self doubt at some point in time in life, and there's been a few times, for every single individual, you have overcame something that you thought was nearly impossible, because if you, if you didn't, each and every one of us wouldn't be where we are today. Now. We could all be, obviously, maybe doing a bit better, but could always be a lot worse. So we discover so I lost print thought, repeat that one more time. I'm so sorry, Michael.   Michael Hingson ** 46:55 I was just asking how people deal with and how do you overcome self doubt to be able to advance and move forward.   RaHeem Lindsey ** 47:01 Okay, so overcome this self doubt. Remember that you know what. I have to go. I have to go here. I have to go here. Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world? This is how I help myself, and I hope that it helps all of us. It will help all of us say that once more, Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world? Okay? So you get some people, may, you know, it might be the inner voice for me, it's God, Jesus, you know, he's the wrong. Same thing, okay, same thing, right? What does the inner voice say about you? What does God say about you? You are fearfully and wonderfully made in God's image. See the this thing here, the flesh, the carnality, will always feed you the lies, because you'll always see just what is in front of you. But the inner voice is what gives you vision, right? So when you have vision, when you're looking outside the physical parameter of things, you see the greater, okay? And you want to see yourself by the inside voice. The inside voice says that you're perfectly, wonderfully made the image of God through Christ, Jesus. You can do all things. You are great. You are amazing. You are wonderful. These things, you are the you are the victor, no longer the victim. Okay, you are the head, not the tail. These are the things, the positive things that are truth, that are said about you, said about me, each and every one of us. So when we learn to see beyond the present circumstance and remember this, it's not always what it looks like, especially when it comes to yourself. Anything that is that is opposite of the positive things that have been spoken of you, that you know about yourself, even is a lie of the enemy. So you have to be willing to know the truth, willing to walk by faith and not by sight. I will add this in, for faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. Faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. So you may have been the drug addict, you may have been the the alcoholic, but I see you as the doctor, as the lawyer, as the nurse, as the store manager, so forth and so on. We have to feed ourselves with the positivity, but the knowing who you are, for me comes from the word. It's times I struggle with myself. I'm like, I don't think I'm the greatest person in the world, but then I have to go back and I reflect. I go back to the world. What does God say about rain? What does God say about you? That's the truth, not the lies that the world may spill upon you and try to demonize your name and slander your reputation, assassinate your character, not those things. Things that might have happened, but you are not that. So seeing the greater in you for me and that will share with anyone that I have the opportunity to encounter you, got to go back to what the inner says about you, the inner self, because the inner you is great, despite what you may go through on the exterior and what is inside will soon come outside. It will reflect   Michael Hingson ** 50:29 you mentioned earlier, the whole concept of being a servant leader. What is a servant leader?   RaHeem Lindsey ** 50:34 A servant leader? A servant leader is one who, obviously, they I see them as being an empath of some extent. I think a great leader has to be empathetic. Because I believe you have to be empathetic in order to want to solve one's needs, to care about their needs. Now it's one thing just to be in business, and this is what separates a servant leader from a leader. A leader may be great and sells the sofa and so on right, and they're leading. But do they care? Are they gathering the Intel of the consumers because of a want and a desire to change lives and to help others. So you have to be a great servant in order to be that great leader. And when you're a great servant leader, you serve based upon the needs of others, and that brings life into you. By giving life unto others by fulfilling their needs. You find your need being met, and you develop that trust and that relationship, and then you leave. But you lead, not only to have that title, forget the title. It's not about the title, but you're led because you're called to lead, because the people trust you and you have been enabled to and you have the insight to based upon being a great consumer, and you want to serve others, you have to be a servant. So consumer servant leadership, once again, the pyramid kind of sums that up and gives you, you know, a synopsis of that. How you know being a great servant leader. They have to be all those things, consumer, servant leader, servant leader, and then repeat, in order to remain relevant, it can never be about you. To be a great leader, it can never be about you. It has to be about the people whom you're serving. Because the moment it becomes about you, it becomes singular. And if you're only there to help self, guess what? At some point in time, you may run out of needs, but when you're serving the capacity of many, there is always a need to be met, and not only that, you're operating in purpose. So I like to share with people this, this, this, this train of thought, if you will. Everyone's always, you know, concerned about financials, right? Money, right? Not me, it's purpose. Because if you chase purpose, the money will follow chase your purpose. Because here's the thing, as scripture says, I'll go here once again, money answereth all things, not something people may say initially and whatnot, oh my god, money, money, money, right for those that are, you know, you know, into the word things like that, right, as myself, sometimes we get it misconstrued and say, Well, money is evil. No, it's not. It depends on whose hands it's in. The word says the love of money is the root of all evil. The love when you love the money over the inner voice over God so forth, then it's the root of all evil, because people will do anything for money. But when you're operating on purpose, you're on divine assignment, it's bigger than you, and so money answers all things, right? But what happens when it's singular? It's just you. There's only so many needs one person can have, so there's no longer a call for the money to answer. And this is kind of a illustration, a parable, if you will. You know, you pick up the phone, it's because someone called Money answers all things. So there has to be a call in order for the money to answer, being a need the call a need for money to answer. But what happens when all your needs are answered as a one individual? It's done, but when you're operating out of purpose, your purpose outlives you. Purpose creates legacy, and purpose helps fulfill others other than yourself, so you're constantly on assignment, so therefore you always stay in motion.   Michael Hingson ** 54:48 So how do you balance personal ambition and serving others?   RaHeem Lindsey ** 54:54 Personal ambition and serving others? Wonderful question. Michael, personal ambition. And serving others, because it's it's why, it's why I'm here. It's my assignment, Michael, it's my purpose in life. As I mentioned earlier, I literally I feel terrible when I'm not able to help others. I'd much rather give than receive any day, because I've been through so much, and I know what it's like to need and others have the wrong perspective of you and not want to help you based upon what somebody else has said. And it's the wrong narrative, it's the wrong story, it's a lie. And then some things may be a bit true. There's some things that, oh, well, yeah, that that is true, but I'm not that. I'm not the individual anymore. That was, that was a mistake that I made, but it does not define me. I know it's like to be misunderstood. I know what it's like to be in need. That's why it's so good that I have went through and endured everything that I have in my life because it's made me appreciative of help when it comes, and it's given me such a capacity with the void that has been left in me because of what I have endured to want to help others, that that's that's my purpose. It may it makes when I, when I, when I have a chance to speak unto other people. I speak life unto them. If I have the opportunity to help somebody financially, it's, it's my pleasure, it's, it's a duty, because I know it's my assignment. Based upon everything that Rahim has went through. I went through and experienced homelessness. I've, I've had a mother that was addicted to hardcore drugs. I've been in the system, both incarceration and as a child, you know, being in the foster care and so forth. I've endured all these things. So it's given me a heart for people that are in the same situations. So it's not too many people you know that themselves or don't know somebody directly close to them, that hasn't been incarcerated, that hasn't been a victim of something in the system as a child, that hasn't had a close loved one, that's battled an addiction, if not yourself, that hasn't went through homelessness, that hasn't been, you know, rejected by the family, you know, a black sheep or whatever have you, that you know all those things and some so I remember what it's like, and some of those things I still endure. And I'm like, all I want to do is to help and to love and to serve. If I do nothing else in life, I'm good with that. I'm fine with that, because I know that's my purpose. Well, oh, go ahead, yes and yeah, go ahead and so just just just knowing that. Like I said, You know what you go through life, ladies and gentlemen, what you go through in life, pay close attention. Hindsight is 2020. That is a part of your purpose, what you overcame. I promise you a lot of people, how do I find purpose? How do I find purpose? It's not as hard as we make it, and I can probably deny and I share this with so many people, and they you're absolutely right, and if it doesn't lead directly, if it doesn't define purpose for you, it helps lead you to your purpose. So don't despise anything that you grow through. But yet, please, learn from it. Learn from it and gain insight.   Michael Hingson ** 58:38 How do you think one can cultivate a let me, yeah, how do you think that one can cultivate a servant leadership mindset in their lives?   RaHeem Lindsey ** 58:52 By I would say by first, you can't it can't be about self. You can't be about self. Now we'll say this, okay, and it's not contradictory, if you, if you take it in the right state of mind, okay, and get what I'm saying, what I'm not saying, you have to be able to help yourself before you can help someone else, because you cannot pour from an empty cup. But knowing that what's in the cup is for you, in the overflow of whatever it may be, your anointing, your finances, your time, your energy, your space, the overflow, once your needs are met, it's for others. So there's a time to think about self initially, because you have to work and develop yourself, you have to fill yourself so that you have something to give. But then once those need once the need is met. So I guess next would be, when is the need met? Well, let's put it in this kind of illustration. Let's say you've got rent, right? Right? It's going to this something everybody can relate to. You got rent, or you got your mortgage. The mortgage is paid, right? The the electrics paid, but you got an exceedingly, you know, amount of of financials left after that. Now you have to be wise. Always exercise wisdom, right? But after that, okay, well, I'm good. My needs met. You know, I've got clothes on my back. You know, there's gas in the car, etc, etc, whatever. Now it is not good for you to hold because God gives seed to the giver. I mean seed to the sower. You see, if you hold what you have in your hand, once again, dealing with singular possessiveness, right? It stays there. It goes no farther than where you set your feet. But the moment you open up your hand, what do you have in your hand? What do you have in your hand? And you spread it and you then it multiplies, right? It multiplies. So it cannot be just about you. We have to get out of the the self mindset? But know that, yes, you have to be able to help yourself before you can help others. Once again, you can't pour from empty cup. But after that, remove self from it and realize that everything that you've gotten, everything that you have obtained, is by the grace of God, that's simply what you've done. Because some things, I'm quite sure, if you look back, how in the world did I do that? And someone helped you, like I said, we cannot be great by ourselves. So it takes a community. It takes individuals. It takes a unit in unity, right? So how to go about that? We move self out the equation and think, How can I serve in a capacity where I have been afflicted in my life, where I overcame, because if you're a decent human being, by my beliefs, you will have a void in your heart, a concern in your heart, and you're drawn towards individuals who are going through what you went through, because you remember what it was like. I wish I had someone who would have understood. I wish I had someone that have spoken a kind word to me, said, I love you when I needed it most, instead of turn their back on me, instead of opposed me, I wish someone would have lended a hand when I was short on the rent, short on the electricity bill, and yes, I was doing everything that I could. So Wow. To reflect back on those things, should give you a heart of gratitude, because obviously you were able, you were able to overcome it by some way. Someone gave you a hand. Somebody, everybody's had somebody help them. And so you may have more rejections than the help. And so the thing   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:00 yes please. And so the thing to do is to pay it forward. Pay it   RaHeem Lindsey ** 1:03:04 forward, simply put, Michael, yes, I'm sorry. I'm long winded at times.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:10 Well, I hear you and I understand and I appreciate all the things that you've said. If people want to reach out to you, how do they do that?   RaHeem Lindsey ** 1:03:18 You can reach out to me there's I'll start with email. That's Raheem Lindsey, 80 one@gmail.com   1:03:29 spell that for me, if you would. That's K, A,   RaHeem Lindsey ** 1:03:33 H, E, E, M, as in man Lindsey, L I, N, D, S, e, y, 80 one@gmail.com Raheem Lindsey, 80 one@gmail.com Okay, and then, and you can reach out to me for you know, whatever speak, counsel, leadership, whatever it may be. Then also, I have my YouTube channel, relentless living online ministries. It is exactly that relentless living International Ministries on YouTube, you'll see this gorgeous face here.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:13 Okay, so the name of the channel, again, is relentless living. Relentless living, yes,   RaHeem Lindsey ** 1:04:19 okay, yep. Relentless living ministries on YouTube. And so, yeah, I have those two things there. And, you know, if need further, then, you know, I'm always free, you know, to, you know, give out my contact, you know, which is more than more than more than welcome to utilize. I have no problem with that as well.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:40 Well, I want to thank you for being here and giving people a lot of insight. I hope people will take it to heart. I've always been a great fan of the whole concept of servant leadership. I think it's extremely important. And I think any good leader is or should be, a servant leader. Otherwise you're. Are missing a lot of the dimensions of what leadership is all about. So I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank everyone who was listening today for being here. Love to hear from you. Love your thoughts. Please email me at Michael H i@accessibe.com accessibe is spelled A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, E, so it's Michael M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, i@accessibe.com, and wherever you're listening, please give us a five star review for the podcast episode. We love it, we appreciate it, and we really do value all that you have to say to us and about us. If you know anyone who ought to be a guest on the podcast, and Rahim as well. For you, if you know anyone else who ought to be a guest, we'd love to hear from you, or please give us an introduction to anyone who you think ought to be a guest. We're always looking for people, because I think everyone has a story to tell. And the reality is, as Rahim is so greatly demonstrated today, we can deal with whatever circumstances come along, but it's our choice to make, to deal with things, and we can choose to do it or not that is up to us. Absolutely. We can listen to God or not, that is up to us. So thank you again, everyone for being here. And Rahim, I want to thank you once more for being here. This has been wonderful,   RaHeem Lindsey ** 1:06:21 absolute pleasure. Michael, I just, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart, once again, complete honor. I've enjoyed just your your your intellect, your wisdom and the Great, the great questions that you've asked may for, I think, a great podcast session as many others before me as I've had the privilege of watching, so I just I thank you. God. Bless you, and continue doing what you're doing, being an inspiration, a great servant leader and just innovation to many an inspiration and motivation.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:07:00 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

In this special episode of Unstoppable Mindset, I had the privilege of sitting down with the remarkable Ivan Cury—a man whose career has taken him from the golden days of radio to groundbreaking television and, ultimately, the classroom.   Ivan began acting at just four and a half years old, with a chance encounter at a movie theater igniting a lifelong passion for storytelling. By age eleven, he had already starred in a radio adaptation of Jack and the Beanstalk and went on to perform in classic programs like Let's Pretend and FBI in Peace and War. His talent for voices and dialects made him a favorite on the air.   Television brought new opportunities. Ivan started out as a makeup artist before climbing the ranks to director, working on culturally significant programs like Soul and Woman, and directing Men's Wearhouse commercials for nearly three decades. Ivan also made his mark in academia, teaching at Hunter College, Cal State LA, and UCLA. He's written textbooks and is now working on a book of short stories and reflections from his extraordinary life.   Our conversation touched on the importance of detail, adaptability, and collaboration—even with those we might not agree with. Ivan also shared his view that while hard work is crucial, luck plays a bigger role than most of us admit.   This episode is packed with insights, humor, and wisdom from a man who has lived a rich and varied life in media and education. Ivan's stories—whether about James Dean or old-time radio—are unforgettable.     About the Guest:   Ivan Cury began acting on Let's Pretend at the age of 11. Soon he was appearing on Cavalcade of America, Theatre Guild on the Air,  The Jack Benny Program, and many others.  Best known as Portia's son on Portia Faces Life and Bobby on Bobby Benson and The B-Bar-B Riders.    BFA: Carnegie Tech, MFA:Boston University.   Producer-director at NET & CBS.  Camera Three's 25th Anniversary of the Julliard String Quartet, The Harkness Ballet, Actor's Choice and Soul! as well as_, _The Doctors and The Young and the Restless. Numerous television commercials, notably for The Men's Wearhouse.   Taught at Hunter, Adelphi, and UCLA.  Tenured at Cal State University, Los Angeles.  Author of two books on Television Production, one of which is in its 5th edition.    Ways to connect with Ivan:       About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:16 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And the fun thing is, most everything really deals with the unexpected. That is anything that doesn't have anything to do with diversity or inclusion. And our guest today, Ivan Cury, is certainly a person who's got lots of unexpected things, I am sure, and not a lot necessarily, dealing with the whole issue of disabilities, inclusion and diversity, necessarily, but we'll see. I want to tell you a little bit about Ivan, not a lot, because I want him to tell but as many of you know who listen to unstoppable mindset on a regular basis. I collect and have had as a hobby for many years old radio shows. And did a radio program for seven years, almost at UC Irvine when I was there on kuci, where every Sunday night we played old radio shows. And as it turns out, Ivan was in a number of those shows, such as, let's pretend, which is mostly a children's show. But I got to tell you, some of us adults listened and listened to it as well, as well as other programs. And we'll get into talking about some of those things. Ivan has a really great career. He's done a variety of different things, in acting. He's been in television commercials and and he is taught. He's done a lot of things that I think will be fun to talk about. So we'll get right to it. Ivan, I want to thank you for being here and welcome you to unstoppable mindset. Thanks. Thanks. Good to be here. Well, tell us a little bit about kind of the early Ivan growing up, if you will. Let's start with that. It's always good to start at the beginning, as it were,   Ivan Cury ** 03:04 well, it's sorry, it's a great, yes, it's a good place to start. About the time I was four and a half, that's a good time to start. I walked past the RKO 81st, street theater in New York, which is where we lived, and there was a princess in a in a castle kept in the front of this wonderful building that photographs all over the place. Later on, I was to realize that that Princess was really the cashier, but at the time, it was a princess in a small castle, and I loved the building and everything was in it. And thought at that time, that's what I'm going to do when I grow up. And the only thing that's kind of sad is it's Here I am, and I'm still liking that same thing all these years later, that's that's what I liked. And I do one thing or another, I wound up entertaining whenever there was a chance, which really meant just either singing a song or shaking myself around and pretending it was a dance or thinking it was a dance. And finally, wound up meeting someone who suggested I do a general audition at CBS long ago, when you could do those kinds of things I did and they I started reading when I was very young, because I really, because I want to read comics, you know, no big thing about that. And so when I could finally read comics, I wound up being able to read and doing it well. And did a general audition of CBS. They liked me. I had a different kind of voice from the other kids that were around at the time. And and so I began working and the most in my career, this was once, once you once they found a kid who had a different voice than the others, then you could always be the kid brother or the other brother. But it was clear that I wasn't a kid with a voice. I was the kid with the Butch boy. So who? Was who, and so I began to work. And I worked a lot in radio, and did lots and lots of shows, hundreds, 1000s,   Michael Hingson ** 05:07 you mentioned the comics. I remember when we moved to California, I was five, and I was tuning across the dial one Sunday morning and found KFI, which is, of course, a state a longtime station out here was a clear channel station. It was one of the few that was the only channel or only station on that frequency, and on Sunday morning, I was tuning across and I heard what sounded like somebody reading comics. But they weren't just reading the comics. They were dramatized. And it turns out it was a guy named David Starling who did other shows and when. So I got his name. But on that show, he was the funny paper man, and they read the LA Times comics, and every week they acted them out. So I was a devoted fan for many years, because I got to hear all of the comics from the times. And we actually subscribed to a different newspaper, so I got two sets of comics my brother or father read me the others. But it was fun reading and listening to the comics. And as I said, they dramatize them all, which was really cool.   Ivan Cury ** 06:14 Yeah, no doubt I was one day when I was in the studio, I was doing FBI and peace and war. I used to do that all the time, several it was a sponsored show. So it meant, I think you got $36 as opposed to $24 which was okay in those days. And my line was, gee, Dad, where's the lava soap. And I said that every week, gee, Dad, where's the lava soap. And I remember walking in the studio once and hearing the guy saying, Ah, this television ain't never gonna work. You can't use your imagination. And, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 06:52 well, except you really don't use your imagination near especially now I find that everything is way too spelled out, so you don't get to use your imagination.   Ivan Cury ** 07:03 Radio required you to use your radio required you to use it. Yeah, and, and if you had a crayon book at the time, well, and you were 12 or No, no, much younger than that, then it was and that was what you did, and it was fun.   Michael Hingson ** 07:17 So what was the first radio program that you were   Ivan Cury ** 07:20 it was very peculiar, is it New Year's Eve, 19 four? No, I don't know. I'm not sure. Now, it was 47 or 48 I think it was 48 Yeah, I was 11, and it was New Year's Eve, and it was with Hank Severn, Ted Cott, and I did a Jack and the Beanstalk. It was recording for caravan records. It became the number one kids record. You know, I didn't, there was no he didn't get residuals or anything like that. And the next day I did, let's pretend. And then I didn't work for three months. And I think I cried myself to sleep every night after that, because I absolutely loved it. And, you know, there was nothing my parents could do about this, but I wanted, I wanted in. And about three months later, I finally got to do another show. Peculiarly. The next show I did was lead opposite Helen Hayes in a play called no room for Peter Pan. And I just looked it up. It was May. I looked it up and I lost it already. I think, I think I may know what it is. Stay tuned. No, now, nope, nope, nope, ah, so that's it was not. This was May 1949, wow. What was it? Well, yeah, and it was, it was a the director was a man named Lester O'Keefe, and I loved Barry Fitzgerald, and I find even at a very early age, I could do an Irish accent. And I've been in Ireland since then. I do did this, just sometimes with the people knowing that I was doing it and I was it was fine. Sometimes they didn't, and I could get it is, it is pretty Irish, I think, at any rate, he asked me father, who was born in Russia, if we spoke Gaelic at home, we didn't. And so I did the show, and it was fine. Then I did a lot of shows after that, because here was this 11 year old kid who could do all this kind of   Michael Hingson ** 09:24 stuff. So what was no room for Peter Pan about,   Ivan Cury ** 09:27 oh, it was about a midget, a midget who is a young man, a young boy who never grows up, and there's a mind. He becomes a circus performer, and he becomes a great star, and he comes back to his town, to his mother, and there's a mine disaster, and the only one who can save them is this little person, and the kid doesn't want to do it, and it's and there's a moment where Helen Hayes, who played the lead, explained about how important it is the to give up your image and be and be. Man, be a real man, and do the thing, right thing to do. And so that was the   Michael Hingson ** 10:04 story. What show was it on? What series?   Ivan Cury ** 10:07 Electric Theater, Electric Theater, Electric Theater with Ellen Hayes, okay,   Michael Hingson ** 10:10 I don't think I've heard that, but I'm going to find it.   Ivan Cury ** 10:14 Well, yes, there's that one. And almost very soon afterwards, I did another important part with Walter Hughes, Walter Hamden. And that was on cavalcade of America, Ah, okay. And that was called Footlights on the frontier. And it was about, Tom about Joseph Jefferson, and the theater of the time, where the young kid me meets Abraham Lincoln, Walter Houston, and he saves the company. Well, those are the first, first shows. Was downhill from there. Oh, I don't   Michael Hingson ** 10:50 know, but, but you you enjoyed it, and, of course, I loved it, yes, why?   Ivan Cury ** 11:00 I was very friendly with Richard lamparsky. I don't even remember him, but he wrote whatever became of series of books. Whatever became of him was did a lot, and we were chatting, and he said that one of the things he noticed is that people in theater, people in motion pictures, they all had a lot of nightmare stories to tell about people they'd work with. And radio actors did not have so much of that. And I believe that you came in, you got your script, you work with people you like, mostly, if you didn't, you'd see you'd lose, you know, you wouldn't see them again for another Yeah, you only had to deal with them for three or four hours, and that was in the studio. And after that, goodbye.   Michael Hingson ** 11:39 Yeah, what was your favorite show that you ever did?   Ivan Cury ** 11:42 And it seems to me, it's kind of almost impossible. Yeah, I don't know,   Michael Hingson ** 11:51 a lot of fun ones.   Ivan Cury ** 11:54 I'll tell you the thing about that that I found and I wrote about it, there are only five, four reasons really, for having a job. One of them is money, one of them is prestige. One of them is learning something, and the other is having fun. And if they don't have at least two, you ought to get out of it. And I just had a lot of fun. I really like doing it. I think that's one of the things that's that keeps you going now, so many of these old time radio conventions, which are part of my life now, at least Tom sometimes has to do with with working with some of the actors. It's like tennis. It's like a good tennis game. You you send out a line, and you don't know how it's going to come back and what they're going to do with it. And that's kind of fun.   Michael Hingson ** 12:43 Well, so while you were doing radio, and I understand you weren't necessarily doing it every day, but almost, well, almost. But you were also going to school. How did all that work out   Ivan Cury ** 12:53 there is, I went to Professional Children's School. I went to a lot of schools. I went to law schools only because mostly I would, I would fail geometry or algebra, and I'd have to take summer session, and I go to summer session and I'd get a film, and so I'd leave that that session of summer session and do the film and come back and then go to another one. So in all, I wound up to being in about seven or eight high schools. But the last two years was at Professional Children's School. Professional Children's School has been set up. It's one of a number of schools that are set up for professional children, particularly on the East Coast. Here, they usually bring somebody on the set. Their folks brought on set for it. Their professional school started really by Milton Berle, kids that go on the road, and they were doing terribly. Now in order to work as a child Lacher in New York and probably out here, you have to get permission from the mayor's office and permission from the American Society of Prevention of Cruelty to Children. And you needed permits to do it, and those both organizations required the schools to show to give good grades you were doing in school, so you had to keep up your grades, or they wouldn't give you a permit, and then you couldn't work. PCs did that by having correspondence. So if a kid was on the road doing a show out of town in Philadelphia or wherever, they were responsible for whatever that week's work was, and we were all we knew ahead of time what the work was going to be, what projects had to be sent into the school and they would be graded when I went, I went to Carnegie, and my first year of English, I went only, I think, three days a week, instead of five, because Tuesdays and Thursdays Were remedial. We wrote We were responsible for a term paper. Actually, every week, you we learned how to write. And it was, they were really very serious about it. They were good schools   Michael Hingson ** 14:52 well, and you, you clearly enjoyed it. And I know you also got very involved and interested in poetry as you went along. Too do. Yes, I did well, yeah, yeah. And who's your favorite poet?   Ivan Cury ** 15:07 Ah, my favorite poets. If that is hard to say, who my favorite is, but certainly they are more than one is Langston, Hughes, Mary, Oliver, wh Jordan, my favorite, one of my favorite poems is by Langston Hughes. I'll do it for you now. It's real easy. Burton is hard, and dying is mean. So get yourself some love, and in between, there you go. Yes, I love that. And Mary Oliver, Mary Oliver's memory, if I hope I do, I go down to the shore, and depending upon the hour, the waves are coming in and going out. And I said, Oh, I am so miserable. Watch. What should I do? And the sea, in its lovely voice, says, Excuse me, I have work to do.   Michael Hingson ** 15:56 Ooh. That puts it in perspective, doesn't   Ivan Cury ** 16:00 it? Yes, it certainly does.   Michael Hingson ** 16:03 So So you, you went to school and obviously had good enough grades that you were able to continue to to act and be in radio, yes, which was cool. And then television, because it was a television Lacher, yeah, yeah. It's beginning of television as well. So I know one of the shows that you were on was the Jack Benny show. What did you do for Jack? Oh, well,   Ivan Cury ** 16:28 I'm really stuffy. Singer is the guy who really did a lot of Jack Benny things. But what happened is that when Jack would come to New York, if there was a kid they needed, that was me, and so I did the Benny show, I don't know, two or three times when he was in New York. I, I did the Jack Benny show two or three times. But I was not so you were, you were nice, man. It came in. We did the show. I went   Michael Hingson ** 16:51 home. You were a part time Beaver, huh?   Ivan Cury ** 16:54 I don't know. I really don't know, but I was beaver or what? I don't remember anything other than I had been listening to the Jack Benny show as a kid. I knew he was a star and that he was a nice man, and when he came into the studio, he was just a nice man who who read Jack Benny's lines, and who was Jack Benny, and he said his lines, and I said my lines, and we had a nice time together. And there wasn't any, there wasn't any real interplay between us, other than what would be normal between any two human beings and and that was that. So I did the show, but I can't talk very much about Jack Benny.   Michael Hingson ** 17:32 Did you? Did you primarily read your scripts, or did you memorize them at all?   Ivan Cury ** 17:37 Oh, no, no, radio. That was the thing about radio. Radio that was sort of the joy you read. It was all about reading. It's all about reading, yeah. And one of the things about that, that that was just that I feel lucky about, is that I can pretty well look at a script and read it. Usually read it pretty well with before the first time I've ever seen it, and that's cold reading, and I was pretty good at that, and still am.   Michael Hingson ** 18:06 Did you find that as you were doing scripts and so on, though, and reading them, that that changed much when you went in into television and started doing television?   Ivan Cury ** 18:22 I don't know what you mean by change.   Michael Hingson ** 18:24 Did you you still read scripts and   Ivan Cury ** 18:26 yeah, no, no, the way. I mean the way intelligent show usually goes as an actor. Well, when I directed television, I used to direct a lot of soap operas, not a lot, but I directed soap operas, but there'd be a week's rehearsal for a show, danger, I'm syndicated, or anything, and so there'd be a week's rehearsal. The first thing you do is, we have a sit down read, so you don't read the script, and then you holding the script in your hand walk through the scenes. Sometimes the director would have, would have blocking that they knew you were going to they were going to do, and they say, here's what you do. You walk in the door, etc. Sometimes they say, Well, go ahead, just show me what you'd like, what you what it feels like. And from that blocking is derived. And then you go home and you try to memorize the lines, and you feel perfectly comfortable that as you go, when you leave and you come back the next day and discover you got the first line down. But from there on, it's dreadful. But after a while, you get into the thing and you know your lines. You do it. Soap opera. Do that.   Michael Hingson ** 19:38 The interesting thing about doing radio, was everything, pretty much, was live. Was that something that caused a lot of pressure for you?   Ivan Cury ** 19:51 In some ways, yes, and in some ways it's lovely. The pressure is, yes, you want to get it right, but if you got to get it but if you get it wrong, give it up, because it's all over. Uh, and that's something that's that isn't so if you've recorded it, then you start figuring, well, what can I do? How can I fix this? You know, live, you do it and it's done. That's, that's what it is, moving right along. And this, this comment, gets to be kind of comfortable, you know, that you're going to, there may be some mistakes. You do the best you can with it, and go on one of the things that's really the news that that happens, the news, you know, every night, and with all the other shows that are live every day,   Michael Hingson ** 20:26 one of the things that I've noticed in a number of radio shows, there are times that it's fairly obvious that somebody made a flub of some sort, but they integrated it in, and they were able to adapt and react, and it just became part of the show. And sometimes it became a funny thing, but a lot of times they just worked it in, because people knew how to do that. And I'm not sure that that is so much the case certainly today on television, because in reality, you get to do it over and over, and they'll edit films and all that. And so you don't have that, that same sort of thing, but some of those challenges and flubs that did occur on radio were really like in the Jack Benny shows and burns and Allen and Phil Harris and so on. They were, they just became integrated in and they they became classic events, even though they weren't necessarily originally part of the plan.   Ivan Cury ** 21:25 Absolutely, some of some of them, I suspect some of them, were planned and planned to sound as if they would just happen. But certainly mistakes. Gosh, good mistakes are wonderful. Yeah, in all kinds of I used to do a lot of live television, and even if we weren't live television, when we would just do something and we were going to tape it and do it later, I remember once the camera kind of going wrong, video going wrong. I went, Wait a minute. That's great. Let's keep it wrong like that, you know. And it was so is just lovely that that's part of the art of improvisation, with how   Michael Hingson ** 22:06 and and I think there was a lot more of that, certainly in radio, than there is on television today, because very few things are really live in the same   Ivan Cury ** 22:17 sense. No, there. There are some kinds of having written, there are some type formats that are live. The news is live, the news is live. There's no, you know, there are. There used to be, and there may still be some of the afternoon shows, the kind of morning and afternoon shows where Show and Tell Dr whatever his name is, Dr Phil, yeah, it may be live, or it's shot as live, and they don't, they don't really have a budget to edit, so it's got to be real bad before they edit. Yeah. So do a show like that called Woman of CBS. So there are shows that are live, like that, sport events are live. A lot of from Kennedy Center is live. There are, there are lots of programs that are live, concerts, that are that you are a lot of them. America's Got Talent might as well be live. So there's a lot of that. And certainly things go wrong in the ad lib, and that's the way, because, in fact, there's some lovely things that happen out of that, but mostly, you're absolutely right. Mostly you do show it's recorded. You intend to edit it, you plan it to be edited, and you do it. It's also different when you shoot multiple camera, as opposed to single camera, yeah, single camera being as you say, again and again and again, multiple camera, not so much, although I used to direct the young and the restless, and now there is a line cut which is almost never used. It's it's the intention, but every shot is isolated and then cleaned up so that it's whatever is, whatever is possibly wrong with it gets clean.   Michael Hingson ** 24:03 Yeah, it's, it's a sign of the changing times and how things, everything   Ivan Cury ** 24:09 is bad. It's just, it's different. In fact, that's a kind of question I'm really puzzled with right now for the fun of it. And that is about AI, is it good or bad?   Michael Hingson ** 24:20 Well, and it's like anything else, of course, it depends. One of the one of my, my favorite, one of my favorite things about AI is a few years, a couple of years ago, I was at a Christmas party when there was somebody there who was complaining about the fact that kids were writing their papers using AI,   Ivan Cury ** 24:43 and that's bad   Michael Hingson ** 24:44 and and although people have worked on trying to be able to detect AI, the reality is that this person was complaining that the kids were even doing it. And I didn't think about it until later, but I realized. Is one of the greatest blessings of AI is let the students create their papers using AI. What the teachers need to do is to get more creative. And by that I mean All right, so when children turn in and students turn in their papers, then take a day and let every student take about a minute and come up and defend the paper they wrote. You're going to find out really quickly who really knew the subject and who just let ai do it and didn't have any interaction with it. But what a great way to learn. You're going to find out very quickly. And kids are going to figure out very quickly that they need to really know the subject, because they're going to have to defend their   Ivan Cury ** 25:41 papers. Yeah, no, I think that's fine. I I don't like the amount of electricity that it requires and what it's doing to our to our needs for water, because it has to be cooled down. So there's some physical things that I don't like about AI, and I think it's like when you used to have to go into a test with a slide rule, and they you couldn't use your calculator. When I use a calculator, it's out of the bag. You can't put it back anymore. It's a part of our life, and how to use it is the question. And I think you're absolutely right. I don't even need to know whether. I'm not even sure you need to check the kids if they it. How will you use? How will we get to use? Ai, it is with us.   Michael Hingson ** 26:30 Well, but I think there's a the value of of checking and testing. Why I'm with you. I don't think it's wrong. I think, no, no, but I think the value is that it's going to make them really learn the subject. I've written articles, and I've used AI to write articles, and I will look at them. I'll actually have a create, like, eight or nine different versions, and I will decide what I like out of each of them, and then I will add my part to it, because I have to make it me, and I've always realized that. So I know anything that I write, I can absolutely defend, because I'm very integrally involved in what I do with it, although AI has come up with some very clever ideas. Yeah, I hadn't thought of but I still add value to it, and I think that's what's really important.   Ivan Cury ** 27:19 I did a I've been writing stuff for a while, and one of the things I did, I wrote this. I wrote a little piece. And I thought, well, what? What would ai do if they took the same piece? How would they do it? So I put it in and said, rewrite it. They did. It was kind of bland. They'd taken all the life out of it. It wasn't very Yeah. So then I said, Well, wait a minute, do the same thing, write it as if it were written by Damon Runyon. And so they took it and they did that, and it was way over the top and really ugly, but it I kind of had fun with what, what the potential was, and how you might want to use it. I mean, I think the way you using it is exactly right. Yeah, it's how you use it, when, when you when, I'm just as curious, when you do that, when you said, you write something, and you ask them to do it four or five times or many times. How do you how do you require them to do it differently.   Michael Hingson ** 28:23 Well, there are a couple different ways. One is, there are several different models that can use to generate the solution. But even leaving aside such as, Oh, let's see, one is, you go out and do more web research before you actually do the do the writing. And so that's one thing and another. I'm trying to remember there were, like, six models that I found on one thing that I did yesterday, and but, but the other part about it is that with AI, yeah, the other thing about AI is that you can just tell it you don't like the response that you   Ivan Cury ** 29:09 got. Aha, okay, all right, yep,   Michael Hingson ** 29:13 I got it. And when you do that, it will create a different response, which is one of the things that you want. So, so so that works out pretty well. And what I did on something, I wanted to write a letter yesterday, and I actually had it write it. I actually had it do it several times. And one time I told it to look at the web to help generate more information, which was pretty cool, but, but the reality is that, again, I also think that I need to be a part of the the solution. So I had to put my my comments into it as well, and, and that worked out pretty well. Okay, right? Yeah, so I mean, it's cool, and it worked. Right? And so the bottom line is we we got a solution, but I think that AI is a tool that we can use, and if we use it right, it will enhance us. And it's something that we all have to choose how we're going to do. There's no no come, yeah, no question about that. So tell me you were successful as a young actor. So what kind of what what advice or what kind of thoughts do you have about youth success, and what's your takeaway from that?   Ivan Cury ** 30:36 The Good, yeah, I There are a lot of things being wanting to do it, and I really love doing it, I certainly didn't want to. I wanted to do it as the best way I could Well, I didn't want to lose it up, is what it really comes down to. And that meant figuring out what it is that required. And one of the things that required was a sense of responsibility. You had to be there on time, you had to be on stage, and you may want to fidget, but that takes to distract from what's going on, so sit still. So there's a kind of kind of responsibility that that you learn, that I learned, I think early on, that was, that's very useful. Yeah, that's, that's really, I think that's, I wrote some things that I had, I figured, some of these questions that might be around. So there, there's some I took notes about it. Well, oh, attention to details. Yeah, to be care to be watch out for details. And a lot of the things can be carried on into later life, things about detailed, things about date. Put a date on, on papers. When, when did, when was this? No, when was this note? What? When did this happen? Just keeping track of things. I still am sort of astonished at how, how little things add up, how we just just noted every day. And at the end of a year, you've made 365 notes,   Michael Hingson ** 32:14 yeah, well, and then when you go back and read them, which is also part of the issue, is that you got to go back and look at them to to see what   Ivan Cury ** 32:23 right or to just know that they're there so that you can refer to them. When did that happen?   Michael Hingson ** 32:28 Oh, right. And what did you say? You know, that's the point. Is that when I started writing thunder dog, my first book was suggested that I should start it, and I started writing it, what I started doing was creating notes. I actually had something like 1.2 megabytes of notes by the time we actually got around to doing the book. And it was actually eight years after I started doing some, well, seven years after I started doing writing on it. But the point is that I had the information, and I constantly referred back to it, and I even today, when I deliver a speech, I like to if there's a possibility of having it recorded, I like to go back and listen, because I want to make sure that I'm not changing things I shouldn't change and or I want to make sure that I'm really communicating with the audience, because I believe that my job is to talk with an audience, not to an audience.   Ivan Cury ** 33:24 Yeah, yeah. I we say that I'm reading. There are three books I'm reading right now, one of them, one of them, the two of them are very well, it doesn't matter. One is called who ate the oyster? Who ate the first oyster? And it's a it's really about paleon. Paleological. I'm saying the word wrong, and I'm paleontological. Paleontological, yeah, study of a lot of firsts, and it's a lovely but the other one is called shady characters by Keith Houston, and it's a secret life of punctuation symbols and other typographical marks, and I am astonished at the number of of notes that go along with it. Probably 100 100 pages of footnotes to all of the things that that are a part of how these words came to be. And they're all, I'm not looking at the footnotes, because there's just too many, but it's kind of terrific to check out. To be that clear about where did this idea come from, where did this statement come from? I'm pleased about that. I asked my wife recently if you could be anything you want other than what you are. What would you want to be? What other what other job or would you want to have? The first one that came to mind for me, which I was surprised that was a librarian. I just like the detail. I think that's   Michael Hingson ** 34:56 doesn't go anywhere. There you go. Well, but there's so. There's a lot of detail, and you get to be involved with so many different kinds of subjects, and you never know what people are going to ask you on any given day. So there's a lot of challenge and fun to that.   Ivan Cury ** 35:11 Well, to me also just putting things in order, I was so surprised to discover that in the Dewey Decimal System, the theater is 812 and right next to it, the thing that's right next to it is poetry. I was surprised. It's interesting, yeah, the library and play that out.   Michael Hingson ** 35:29 Well, you were talking about punctuation. Immediately I thought of EE Cummings. I'll bet he didn't pay much attention to punctuation at all. I love him. He's great, yeah, isn't he? Yeah, it's a lot of fun. An interesting character by any standard. So, so you, you progressed into television, if, I guess it's progressing well, like, if we answer to Fred Allen, it's not, but that's okay.   Ivan Cury ** 35:54 Well, what happens? You know, after, after, I became 18, and is an interesting moment in my life, where they were going to do film with Jimmy Dean, James Dean, James Dean. And it came down and he was going to have a sidekick, a kid sidekick. And it came down to me and Sal Mineo. And Sal got it, by the way. Case you didn't know, but one of the things was I was asked I remember at Columbia what I wanted to do, and I said I wanted to go to college, and my there was a kind of like, oh, yeah, right. Well, then you're not going to go to this thing, because we don't. We want you to be in Hollywood doing the things. And yes, and I did go to college, which is kind of great. So what happened was, after, when I became 18, I went to Carnegie tech and studied theater arts. Then I after that, I studied at Boston University and got a master's there, so that I had an academic, an academic part of my life as well, right? Which ran out well, because in my later years, I became a professor and wrote some   Michael Hingson ** 36:56 books, and that was your USC, right? No, Cal State, Lacher State, LA and UCLA. And UCLA, not USC. Oh, shame on me. But that's my wife. Was a USC graduate, so I've always had loyalty. There you go. But I went to UC Irvine, so you know, okay, both systems, whatever.   Ivan Cury ** 37:16 Well, you know, they're both UC system, and that's different, yeah, the research institutes, as opposed to the Cal State, which   Michael Hingson ** 37:23 are more teaching oriented, yeah,   Ivan Cury ** 37:26 wow, yeah, that's, that's what it says there in the paper.   Michael Hingson ** 37:30 Yes, that's what it says. But you know, so you went into television. So what did you mainly do in the in the TV world?   Ivan Cury ** 37:44 Well, when I got out of when I got through school, I got through the army, I came back to New York, and I, oh, I got a job versus the Girl Scouts, doing public relations. I I taught at Hunter College for a year. Taught speech. One of the required courses at Carnegie is voice and diction, and it's a really good course. So I taught speech at Hunter College, and a friend of mine was the second alternate maker man at Channel 13 in New York. He had opera tickets, so he said, Look standard for me, it's easy, men seven and women five, and telling women to put on their own lipstick. So I did. I did that, and I became then he couldn't do it anymore, so I became the second alternate make a man. Then it didn't matter. Within within six months, I was in charge of makeup for any t which I could do, and I was able to kind of get away with it. And I did some pretty good stuff, some prosthetic pieces, and it was okay, but I really didn't want to do that. I wanted to direct, if I could. And so then I they, they knew that, and I they knew that I was going to leave if, if, because I wasn't going to be a makeup I didn't. So I became a stage manager, and then an associate director, and then a director at Channel 13 in New York. And I directed a lot of actors, choice the biggest show I did there, or the one that Well, I did a lot of I also worked with a great guy named Kirk Browning, who did the a lot of the NBC operas, and who did all of the opera stuff in for any t and then I wound up doing a show called Soul, which was a black variety show. But when I say black variety show, it was with James Baldwin and but by the OJS and the unifics and the delphonics and Maya Angelou and, you know, so it was a black culture show, and I was the only white guy except the camera crew there. But had a really terrific time. Left there and went and directed for CBS. I did camera three. So I did things like the 25th anniversary of the Juilliard stringer check. Quartet. But I was also directing a show called woman, which was one of the earliest feminist programs, where I was the only male and an all female show. And actually I left and became the only gringo on an all Latino show called aqui I ahora. So I had a strange career in television as a director, and then did a lot of commercials for about 27 years, I directed or worked on the Men's Warehouse commercials. Those are the facts. I guarantee it.   Michael Hingson ** 40:31 Did you get to meet George Zimmer? Oh, very, very, very often, 27 years worth, I would figure, yeah.   Ivan Cury ** 40:39 I mean, what? I'm enemies. When I met him, he's a boy, a mere boy.   Michael Hingson ** 40:45 Did you act during any of this time? Or were you no no behind the camera once?   Ivan Cury ** 40:50 Well, the only, the only acting I did was occasionally. I would go now in a store near you, got it, and I had this voice that they decided, Ivan, we don't want you to do it anymore. It just sounds too much like we want, let George do this, please.   Michael Hingson ** 41:04 So, so you didn't get to do much, saying of things like, But wait, there's more, right?   Ivan Cury ** 41:10 No, not at all. Okay, okay. Oh, but you do that very well. Let's try.   Michael Hingson ** 41:13 Wait, there's more, okay. Well, that's cool. Well, that was,   Ivan Cury ** 41:18 it was kind of fun, and it was kind of fun, but they had to, it was kind of fun to figure out things. I remember we did. We had a thing where some of those commercial we did some commercials, and this is the thing, I sort of figured out customers would call in. So we recorded their, their call ins, and I they, we said, with calls being recorded. We took the call ins and I had them sent to it a typist who typed up what they wrote that was sent to New York to an advertising agency would extract, would extract questions or remarks that people had made about the stuff, the remarks, the tapes would be then sent to who did that? I think we edited the tapes to make it into a commercial, but the tags needed to be done by an announcer who said, in a store near you were opening sooner, right? Wyoming, and so those the announcer for the Men's Warehouse was a guy in in Houston. So we'd send, we'd send that thing to him, and he'd send us back a digital package with the with the tags. And the fun of it was that was, it was from, the calls are from all over the world. The the edits on paper were done in New York, the physical work was done in San Francisco. The announcer was in Houston. And, you know? And it's just kind of fun to be able to do that, that to see, particularly having come from, having come from 1949 Yeah, where that would have been unheard of to kind of have that access to all that was just fun, kind   Michael Hingson ** 42:56 of fun. But think about it now, of course, where we have so much with the internet and so on, it'd be so much easier, in a lot of ways, to just have everyone meet on the same network and   Ivan Cury ** 43:09 do now it's now, it's nothing. I mean, now it's just, that's the way it is. Come on.   Michael Hingson ** 43:13 Yeah, exactly. So. So you know, one of the things that I've been thinking about is that, yes, we've gone from radio to television and a whole new media and so on. But at the same time, I'm seeing a fairly decent resurgence of people becoming fascinated with radio and old radio and listening to the old programs. Do you see that?   Ivan Cury ** 43:41 Well, I, I wish I did. I don't my, my take on it. It comes strictly from that such, so anecdotal. It's like, in my grandkids, I have these shows that I've done, and it's, you know, it's grandpa, and here it is, and there it's the bobby Benson show, or it's calculator America, whatever, 30 seconds. That's what they give me. Yeah, then it's like, Thanks, grandpa. Whoopie. I don't know. I think maybe there may there may be something, but I would, I'd want some statistical evidence about well, but   Michael Hingson ** 44:19 one of the things I'm thinking of when I talk about the resurgence, is that we're now starting to see places like radio enthusiasts to Puget Sound reps doing recreations of, oh yes, Carl Omari has done the Twilight Zone radio shows. You know, there are some things that are happening, but reps among others, and spurred back to some degree, yeah, spurred back is, is the Society for the Prevention, oh, gosh,   Ivan Cury ** 44:46 not cruelty children, although enrichment   Michael Hingson ** 44:49 of radio   Ivan Cury ** 44:50 drama and comedy, right? Society, right? Yeah, and reps is regional enthusiasts of Puget Sound, Puget   Michael Hingson ** 44:58 Sound and. Reps does several recreations a year. In fact, there's one coming up in September. Are you going to   Ivan Cury ** 45:04 that? Yes, I am. I'm supposed to be. Yes, I think I Yes. I am.   Michael Hingson ** 45:08 Who you're going to play? I have no idea. Oh, you don't know yet.   Ivan Cury ** 45:12 Oh, no, no, that's fun. You get there, I think they're going to have me do a Sam Spade. There is another organization up there called the American radio theater, right? And I like something. I love those people. And so they did a lot of Sam Spade. And so I expect I'm going to be doing a Sam Spade, which I look forward to.   Michael Hingson ** 45:32 I was originally going to it to a reps event. I'm not going to be able to this time because somebody has hired me to come and speak and what I was going to do, and we've postponed it until I can, can be the one to do it is Richard diamond private detective, which is about my most favorite radio show. So I'm actually going to play, able to play Richard diamond. Oh, how great. Oh, that'll be a lot of fun. Yeah. So it'll probably be next year at this point now, but it but it will happen.   Ivan Cury ** 45:59 I think this may, yeah, go ahead. This may be my last, my last show I'm getting it's getting tough to travel.   Michael Hingson ** 46:07 Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Let's see. Let's see what happens. But, but it is fun, and I've met several people through their Carolyn Grimes, of course, who played Zuzu on It's A Wonderful Life. And in fact, we're going to have her on unstoppable mindset in the not too distant future, which is great, but I've met her and and other people, which I   Ivan Cury ** 46:34 think that's part of the for me. That really is part of the fun. Yeah, you become for me now it has become almost a sec, a family, in the same way that when you do show, if you do a show regularly, it is, it really becomes a family. And when the show is over, it's that was, I mean, one of the first things as a kid that was, that was really kind of tough for every day, or every other day I would meet the folks of Bobby Benson and the B Barbie writers. And then I stopped doing the show, and I didn't see them and didn't see them again. You know, I Don Knotts took me to I had the first shrimp of my life. Don Knotts took me to take tough and Eddie's in New York. Then I did another show called paciolini, which was a kind of Italian version of The Goldbergs. And that was, I was part of that family, and then that kind of went away. I was Porsche son on Porsche faces life, and then that way, so the you have these families and they and then you lose them, but, but by going to these old events, there is that sense of family, and there are also, what is just astonishing to me is all those people who know who knows stuff. One day I mentioned Frank Milano. Now, nobody who knows Frank Milano. These guys knew them. Oh, Frank, yeah, he did. Frank Milano was a sound. Was did animal sounds. There were two guys who did animal sounds particularly well. One was Donald Baines, who I worked with on the first day I ever did anything. He played the cow on Jack and the Beanstalk and and Frank, Don had, Don had a wonderful bar room bet, and that was that he could do the sound effects of a fish. Wow. And what is the sound effect of a fish? So now you gotta be required. Here's the sound effect of a fish. This was what he went $5 bets with you. Ready? Here we go.   Michael Hingson ** 48:41 Good job. Yeah, good job. Yeah. It's like, what was it on? Was it Jack Benny? They had a kangaroo, and I think it was Mel Blanc was asked to do the kangaroo, which is, of course, another one where they're not really a sound, but you have to come up with a sound to do it on radio, right?   Ivan Cury ** 49:06 Yes. Oh my god, there were people who want I could do dialects, I could do lots of German film, and I could do the harness. Was very easy for me to do, yeah, so I did love and I got to lots of jobs because I was a kid and I could do all these accents. There was a woman named Brianna Rayburn. And I used to do a lot of shows in National Association of churches of Christ in the United States. And the guy who was the director, John Gunn, we got to know each other. He was talking about, we talked with dialects. He said Briana Rayburn had come in. She was to play a Chinese woman. And she really asked him, seriously, what part of China Do you want her to come from? Oh, wow. I thought that was just super. And she was serious. She difference, which is studied, studied dialects in in. In college not long after, I could do them, and discovered that there were many, many English accents. I knew two or three cockney I could do, but there were lots of them that could be done. And we had the most fun. We had a German scholar from Germany, from Germany, and we asked him if he was doing speaking German, but doing playing the part of an American what would it sound like speaking German with an American accent? You know, it was really weird.   Michael Hingson ** 50:31 I had a history teacher, yes, who was from the Bronx, who spoke German, yeah, and he fought in World War Two. And in fact, he was on guard duty one night, and somebody took a shot at him, and so he yelled back at them in German. The accent was, you know, I took German, so I don't understand it all that well, but, but listening to him with with a New York accent, speaking German was really quite a treat. The accent spilled through, but, but they didn't shoot at him anymore. So I think he said something, what are you shooting at me for? Knock it off. But it was so funny, yeah, but they didn't shoot at him anymore because he spoke, yeah, yeah. It was kind of cool. Well, so with all that you've learned, what kind of career events have have sort of filtered over into what you do today?   Ivan Cury ** 51:28 Oh, I don't know. We, you know. But one of the things I wanted to say, it was one of the things that I learned along the way, which is not really answering your question until I get back to it, was, I think one of those best things I learned was that, however important it is that that you like someone, or you're with somebody and everything is really terrific. One of the significant things that I wish I'd learned earlier, and I think is really important, is how do you get along when you don't agree? And I think that's really very important.   Michael Hingson ** 52:01 Oh, it's so important. And we, in today's society, it's especially important because no one can tolerate anyone anymore if they disagree with them, they're you're wrong, and that's all there is to it. And that just is so unfortunate. There's no There's no really looking at alternatives, and that is so scary   Ivan Cury ** 52:20 that may not be an alternative. It may not be,   Michael Hingson ** 52:23 but if somebody thinks there is, you should at least respect the opinion,   Ivan Cury ** 52:28 whatever it is, how do you get along with the people you don't   Michael Hingson ** 52:32 agree with? Right?   Ivan Cury ** 52:35 And you should one that you love that you don't agree with, right? This may sound strange, but my wife and I do not agree about everything all the time, right?   Michael Hingson ** 52:43 What a concept. My wife and I didn't agree about everything all the time. Really, that's amazing, and it's okay, you know? And in fact, we both one of the the neat things, I would say, is we both learned so much from each other when we disagreed, but would talk about it, and we did a lot of talking and communicating, which I always felt was one of the most important things about our marriage. So we did, we learned a lot, and we knew how to get along, and we knew that if we disagreed, it was okay, because even if we didn't change each other's opinion, we didn't need to try to change each other's opinion, but if we work together and learn to respect the other opinion, that's what really mattered, and you learn more about the individual that way,   Ivan Cury ** 53:30 yeah, and also you have you learn about giving up. Okay, I think you're wrong, but if that's really what you want exactly, I'll do it. We'll do it your way?   Michael Hingson ** 53:42 Yeah, well, exactly. And I think it's so important that we really put some of that into perspective, and it's so crucial to do that, but there's so much disagreement today, and nobody wants to talk to anybody. You're wrong. I'm right. That's all there is to it. Forget it, and that's just not the way the world should be.   Ivan Cury ** 53:59 No, no. I wanted to go on to something that you had asked about, what I think you asked about, what's now I have been writing. I have been writing to a friend who I've been writing a lot of very short pieces, to a friend who had a stroke and who doesn't we can't meet as much as we use. We can't meet at all right now. And but I wanted to just go on, I'm and I said that I've done something really every week, and I'd like to put some of these things together into a book. And what I've been doing, looking for really is someone to work with. And so I keep writing the things, the thing that I wrote just today, this recent one, had to do with I was thinking about this podcast. Is what made me think of it. I thought about the stars that I had worked with, you know, me and the stars, because I had lots. Stories with with people who are considered stars, Charles Lawton, Don Knotts, Gene crane, Maya, Angelou, Robert Kennedy, the one I wrote about today. I wrote about two people. I thought it'd be fun to put them together, James Dean and Jimmy Dean. James Dean, just going to tell you the stories about them, because it's the kind of thing I'm writing about now. James Dean, we worked together on a show called Crime syndicated. He had just become really hot in New York, and we did this show where there were a bunch of probably every teenage actor in New York was doing this show. We were playing two gangs, and Jimmy had an extraordinary amount of lines. And we said, What the hell are you going to do, Jim? If you, you know, if you lose lines, he's, this is live. And he said, No problem. And then what he said is, all I do is I start talking, and then I just move my mouth like I'm walking talking, and everybody will think the audio went out. Oh, and that's, that's what he was planning on doing. I don't know if he really is going to do it. He was perfect. You know, he's just wonderful. He did his show. The show was great. We were all astonished to be working with some not astonished, but really glad to just watch him work, because he was just so very good. And we had a job. And then stories with Jimmy Dean. There were a couple of stories with Jimmy Dean, the singer and the guy of sausage, right? The last one to make it as fast, the last one was, we were in Nashville, at the Grand Ole Opry Opperman hotel. I was doing a show with him, and I was sitting in the bar, the producer and someone other people, and there was a regular Graceland has a regular kind of bar. It's a small bar of chatter, cash register, husband, wife, team on the stage singing. And suddenly, as we were talking, it started to get very quiet. And what had happened is Jimmy Dean had come into the room. He had got taken the guitar, and he started to sing, and suddenly it just got quiet, very quiet in the room. The Register didn't ring. He sang one song and he sang another song. His applause. He said, Thank you. Gave the guitar back to the couple. Walked off the stage. It was quiet while a couple started to sing again. They were good. He started to sing. People began to chatter again. The cash register rang, and I, I certainly have no idea how he managed to command that room to have everybody shut up while he sang and listened to him. He didn't do anything. There was nothing, you know, no announcement. It wasn't like, oh, look, there's Jimmy. It was just his, his performance. It was great, and I was really glad to be working with him the next day well.   Michael Hingson ** 57:56 And I think that having that kind of command and also being unassuming about it is pretty important if you've got an ego and you think you're the greatest thing, and that's all there is to it. That shows too, yeah?   Ivan Cury ** 58:08 Well, some people live on it, on that ego, yeah, and I'm successful on it, I don't think that was what. It certainly   Michael Hingson ** 58:17 wasn't, no, no, no, and I'm not saying that. I'm sure it wasn't that's my point. Yeah, no, because I think that the ultimate best people are the ones who don't do it with ego or or really project that ego. I think that's so important, as I said earlier, for me, when I go to speak, my belief is I'm going to to do what I can to help whatever event I'm at, it isn't about me at all. It's more about the audience. It's more about what can I inspire this audience with? What can I tell the audience and talk with the audience about, and how can I relate to them so that I'm saying something that they want to hear, and that's what I have to do. So if you had the opportunity to go back and talk to a younger Ivan, what would you tell him?   Ivan Cury ** 59:08 Cut velvet? No, there you go. No, what? I don't. I really don't. I don't know.   Michael Hingson ** 59:18 Talk Like a fish. More often   Ivan Cury ** 59:20 talk like a fish. More on there. Maybe. No, I really don't know. I don't know. I think about that sometimes, what it always seems to be a question, what? Really it's a question, What mistakes did you make in life that you wish you hadn't done? What door you wish Yeah, you would open that you didn't? Yeah, and I really don't, I don't know. I can't think of anything that I would do differently and maybe and that I think there's a weakness, because surely there must be things like that. I think a lot of things that happen to one in life anyway have to do with luck. That's not, sort of not original. But I was surprised to hear one day there was a. It. Obama was being interviewed by who was by one of the guys, I've forgotten his name that. And he was talking about his career, and he said he felt that part of his success had been a question of luck. And I very surprised to hear him say that. But even with, within with my career, I think a lot of it had to do with luck I happen to meet somebody that right time. I didn't meet somebody at the right time. I think, I think if I were to do so, if you would, you did ask the question, and I'd be out more, I would be pitching more. I think I've been lazy in that sense, if I wanted to do more that. And I've come to the West Coast quicker, but I was doing a lot of was in New York and having a good time   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:50 Well, and that's important too, yeah. So I don't know that I changed, I Yeah, and I don't know that I would find anything major to change. I think if somebody asked me that question, I'd say, tell my younger self that life is an adventure, enjoy it to the fullest and have fun.   Ivan Cury ** 1:01:12 Oh, well, that's yes. That was the I always believe that, yeah, yeah. It's not a question for me, and in fact, it's one of the things I told my kids that you Abraham Lincoln, you know, said that really in it, in a way a long time ago. He said that you choose you a lot of what you way you see your life has to do with the way the choices you make about how to see it, right? Yeah, which is so cool, right? And one of the ways you might see it says, have fun,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:39 absolutely well, Ivan, this has been absolutely fun. We've been doing it for an hour, believe it or not, and I want to thank you for being here. And I also want to thank everyone who is listening for being with us today. I hope you've enjoyed this conversation, and I'd love to hear what your thoughts are. Please feel free to email me. I'd love to hear your thoughts about this. Email me at Michael h i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, so Ivan, if people want to reach out to you, how do they do that?   Ivan Cury ** 1:02:10 Oh, dear. Oh, wait a minute, here we go. Gotta stop this. I curyo@gmail.com I C, u, r, y, o@gmail.com There you go. Cury 1r and an O at the end of it, not a zero. I curyo@gmail.com Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:30 Well, great. Well, thank you again, and all of you wherever you're listening, I hope that you'll give us a great review wherever you're listening. Please give us a five star review. We appreciate it, and Ivan, for you and for everyone else listening. If you know anyone else who ought to be a guest on our podcast, love to hear from you. Love an introduction to whoever you might have as a person who ought to come on the podcast, because I think everyone has stories to tell, and I want to give people the opportunity to do it. So once again, I want to thank you, Ivan, for being here. We really appreciate it. Thanks for coming on and being with us today. Thank you.   1:03:10 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Each episode on Unstoppable Mindset I ask all of you and my guests to feel free to introduce me to others who would be good guests on our podcast. Our guest this time, Erin Edgar, is a guest introduced to me by a past podcast guest, Rob Wentz. Rob told me that Erin is inspirational and would be interesting and that she would have a lot to offer you, our audience. Rob was right on all counts. Erin Edgar was born blind. Her parents adopted an attitude that would raise their daughter with a positive attitude about herself. She was encouraged and when barriers were put in her way as a youth, her parents helped her fight to be able to participate and thrive. For a time, she attended the Indiana School for the Blind. Her family moved to Georgia where Erin attended high school. After high school, Erin wanted to go to college where she felt there would be a supportive program that would welcome her on campus. She attended the University of North Carolina at Chapple Hill. After graduating she decided to continue at UNC where she wanted to study law. The same program that gave her so much assistance during her undergraduate days was not able to provide the same services to Erin the graduate student. Even so, Erin had learned how to live, survive and obtain what she needed to go through the law program. After she received her law degree Erin began to do what she always wanted to do: She wanted to use the law to help people. So, she worked in programs such as Legal Aid in North Carolina and she also spent time as a mediator. She will describe all that for us. Like a number of people, when the pandemic began, she decided to pivot and start her own law firm. She focuses on estate planning. We have a good discussion about topics such as the differences between a will and a living trust. Erin offers many relevant and poignant thoughts and words of advice we all can find helpful. Erin is unstoppable by any standard as you will see. About the Guest: Erin Edgar, Esq., is a caring, heart-centered attorney, inspirational speaker and vocal artist. She loves helping clients: -- Plan for the future of their lives and businesses, ensuring that they have the support they need and helping them find ways to provide for their loved ones upon death. --Ensure that the leave a legacy of love and reflect client values -- Find creative ways that allow them to impact the world with a lasting legacy. She is passionate about connecting with clients on a heart level. She loves witnessing her clients as she guides them to transform their intentions for their loved ones into a lasting legacy through the estate planning process. Erin speaks about ways to meld proven legal tools, strategies, and customization with the creative process to design legal solutions that give people peace of mind, clarity, and the assurance that their loved ones will be taken care of, and the world will be left a better place Ways to connect with Erin: Facebook: https://facebook.com/erin-edgar-legal LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/erinedgar About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Hi everyone, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. We're glad that you're here with us, wherever you may be. Hope the day is going well, and we have Erin Edgar on our episode today. Edgar is a very interesting person in a lot of ways. She's a caring, heart centered attorney. She is also an inspirational speaker and a vocal artist. I'm not sure whether vocal artistry comes into play when she's in the courtroom, but we won't worry about that too much. I assume that you don't sing to your judges when you're trying to deal with something. But anyway, I'll let her answer that. I'm just trying to cause trouble, but Erin again. We're really glad you're with us. We really appreciate you being here, and I know you do a lot with estate planning and other kinds of things that'll be fun to talk about. So welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Erin Edgar ** 02:14 Thank you, Michael. It's great to be here, and I haven't sung in a courtroom or a courthouse yet, but I wouldn't rule it out.   Michael Hingson ** 02:23 I have someone who I know who also has a guide dog and his diet. His guide dog, it's been a while since I've seen him, but his guide dog tended to be very vocal, especially at unexpected times, and he said that occasionally happened in the courtroom, which really busted up the place. Oh, dear.   Erin Edgar ** 02:45 I imagine that would draw some smiles, hopefully, smiles.   Michael Hingson ** 02:48 Well, they were, yeah, do you, do you appear in court much?   Erin Edgar ** 02:53 Um, no, the type of law that I practice, I'm usually, I don't think I've ever appeared in court after I've written people's wills, but I have done previous things where I was in court mediating disputes, which is a kind of a separate thing that I used to do, so I've been in court just not recently. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 03:17 Well, that's understandable. Well, let's start a little bit with the early Erin and growing up and all that sort of stuff. Tell us about that? Sure.   Erin Edgar ** 03:26 So I was born in cold, gray Indiana, and, yeah, chilly in the wintertime, and I started out I was blind from birth, so my parents thought it would be a good idea to send me to the school for the blind for a while. And back when I was born, um, teen years ago, they did not mainstream visually impaired and disabled students in that state, so you went where you could, and I was at the blind school for until I reached third grade, and then we moved to Georgia, and I've been in the south ever since I live in North Carolina now, and I started going to public schools in fourth grade, and continued on that route all the way up through high school.   Michael Hingson ** 04:21 Oh, okay. And so then, what did you do?   Erin Edgar ** 04:29 So after, after that, I, you know, I was one of those high school students. I really wanted to get out of dodge and leave my high school behind. I went visiting a couple of colleges in Georgia, and I said to my parents, I said, I really don't like this. It's like going to high school again. Literally, I was meeting people I had been in high school with, and I decided, and was very grateful that my parents. Were able to rig it some way so that I could go to an out of state school. And I went to UNC Chapel Hill here in North Carolina, Tar Heels all the way. And I was there for undergrad. And then I got into law school there as well, which I was very excited about, because I didn't have to go anywhere, and graduated from law school again a while ago in the early 2000s   Michael Hingson ** 05:31 Okay, and so then you went straight into law from that.   Erin Edgar ** 05:37 I didn't I did some other things before I actually went into law itself. I worked with some local advocacy organizations, and I also mediated, as I said earlier, I did mediations with the county court, helping mediate criminal disputes. And we're talking about like things with you get in a dispute with your neighbor and you yell at each other, those kind of People's Court type things. They were fun and interesting. And then I did go into law. After that, I started working with Legal Aid of North Carolina, which is a an organization that helps people in poverty who cannot afford a lawyer to go and have have their options communicated to them and some help given to them regarding their public benefits or certain other, you know, public things that we could help with we weren't able to help with any personal injury, or, you know, any of the fun stuff you see on TV. So and then, when the pandemic hit, I started my own law practice and completely changed gears and went into writing estate plans and wills for a living.   Michael Hingson ** 07:07 Do you think that your time doing mediation work and so on taught you a lot about humanity and human nature and people?   Erin Edgar ** 07:16 It did. I bet it did. It was invaluable, actually, in that area taught me a lot about, I don't know necessarily, about human nature. However, it did teach me a lot about how to talk to people who were on different pages. You know, they had, perhaps, values and principles that weren't quite the same, where they had a different way of looking at the same exact situation, and how to bring those those people together and allow them to connect on a deeper level, rather than the argument we're able to get them to agree to kind of move forward from that, so nobody has to be found guilty, right? And you know a judge doesn't have and you don't have to drag a criminal conviction around with you. I think the most rewarding cases that I had, by far were the education cases. Because I don't know if anyone knows this, but in most states, in the United States, if you don't send your kids to school, you are guilty of a crime. It's called truancy, and you can be arrested. Well, the county that I live in was very forward thinking, and the school system and the court said, that's kind of dumb. We don't want to arrest parents if their kids aren't going to school, there's something behind it. You know, there the school is not providing what the child needs. The child's acting out for some reason, and we need to get to the bottom of it. So what they did was they set up a process whereby we come in as neutral observers. We did not work for the court. We were part of a separate organization, and have a school social worker there or counselor, and also have a parent there, and they could talk through the issues. And in a lot of cases, if the children were old enough, they were teenagers, they were there, and they could talk about it from their perspective. And truly amazing things came out of those situations. We could just we would discover that the children had a behavioral issue or even a disability that had not been recognized, and were able to come up with plans to address that with you know, or the school was with our help,   Michael Hingson ** 09:42 going back a little bit, how did your parents deal with the fact that you were blind? I gather it was a fairly positive experience   Erin Edgar ** 09:50 for me. It was positive. I was so fortunate, and I'm still so grateful to this day for having parents who you. I were very forward thinking, and advocated for me to have and do whatever, not whatever I wanted, because I was far from spoiled, but, you know, whatever, yeah, yeah, you know. But whatever, however I wanted to be successful, they advocated for me. And so my mother actually told me, you know, when I was born, they went through all the parent things like, oh, gosh, what did we do wrong? You know, why is God punishing us? You know, all that. And they, very early on, found support groups for, you know, parents with children with either blindness or disabilities of some sort, and that was a great source of help to them. And as I grew up, they made every effort to ensure that I had people who could teach me, if they couldn't, you know, how to interact with other children. I think, for a while when I was very little, and I actually kind of remember this, they hired an occupational therapist to come and teach me how to play with kids, because not only was I blind, but I was an only child, so I didn't have brothers and sisters to interact with, and that whole play thing was kind of a mystery to me, and I remember it sort of vaguely, but that's just A demonstration that they wanted me to have the best life possible and to be fully integrated into the sighted world as much as possible. So when I was at the blind school, and I was in this residential environment, and there was an added bonus that my parents didn't really weren't happy in their jobs either, and they weren't happy with the education I was getting, that they decided, well, we're just going to pick up and move and that was, quite frankly, as I look back on it now, a huge risk for them. And they did it, you know, 50% for me and 50% for them, maybe even 6040, but as I look back on it now, it's another demonstration of how supportive they were, and all the way through my school age years, were very active in ensuring that I had everything that I needed and that I had the support that I needed.   Michael Hingson ** 12:19 That's cool. How did it go when you went to college at UNC?   Erin Edgar ** 12:25 Yeah, that's an interesting question, a very good question.   Michael Hingson ** 12:29 You didn't play basketball, I assume? Oh no, I figured you had other things to do.   Erin Edgar ** 12:33 Yeah, I had other stuff to do. I sang in the choir and sang with the medieval chorus group, and, you know, all this other, like, musical geek, geeky stuff. But, or, and when we were looking for colleges and universities, one of the criteria was they had to have a solid kind of, like disability, slash visually impaired center, or, you know, support staff that would help in, you know, allow people with disabilities to go through the university. So at UNC Chapel Hill, the they had as part of their student affairs department Disability Services, and it just so happened that they were very aware of accommodations that blind people needed. I wasn't the first blind student to go through undergrad there. That's not law school, that's undergrad. And so you know, how much was it? Time and a half on on tests if I was doing them on the computer, double time if I was doing them in Braille. A lot of the tests were in Braille because they had the technology to do it. And also the gentleman who ran the Disability Services Department, I think, knew Braille, if I'm not mistaken, and could transcribe if necessary. But I was at the stage at that point where I was typing most of my exams anyway, and didn't need much that was in Braille, because I had books either electronically or they had a network of folks in the community that would volunteer to read if there was not, you know, available textbooks from RFD, and what is it, RFP and D? Now was at the time, yeah, now Learning Ally, there wasn't a Bookshare at that time, so we couldn't use Bookshare, but if there weren't textbooks available, they would have people in the community who would read them for them, and they would get paid a little bit. Now, when I went to law school, it was a totally different ball game, because I was the first law student who was blind, that UNC Chapel Hill had had, and it was a different school within the school, so that student affairs department was not part of law school anymore, and we had quite a time the first semester getting my book. Works in a format that I could read them in. They did eventually, kind of broker a deal, if you will, with the publishers who were either Thompson Reuters or Westlaw at the time to get electronic versions. They were floppy disks. This is how old I am. Floppy disks. They were in this weird format. I think it was word perfect or something. Usually it was, and they   Michael Hingson ** 15:27 didn't really have a lot of them new or no, they didn't know now, newer publishing system,   Erin Edgar ** 15:32 yeah, there wasn't PDF even, I don't think, at the time. And the agreement was I could get those, and I actually had to buy the print textbooks as well. So I have this whole bookcase of law books that are virgin, unopened, almost. And they are, you know, some of them almost 25 years old, never been opened and of no use to anyone. But I have them, and they look nice sitting down there in that bookshelf antiques books. They're antiques. So the first year was a little rough, because for a while I didn't have books, and we were able to make arrangements so that I could kind of make up some classes on a later year and switch things around a little bit. And it ended up all working out really well once we got started.   Michael Hingson ** 16:16 Yeah, I remember when I was going through getting my bachelor's and master's in physics, I needed the books in braille because, well, it's the only way to be able to really deal with the subject. You can't do it nearly as well from recordings, although now there's a little bit better capability through recording, because we have the DayZ format and so on. But still, it's not the same as reading it in Braille and for mathematics and physics and so on. I think that the only way to really do it is in Braille. And we had challenges because professors didn't want to decide what books to use until the last minute, because then, oh, a new book might be coming out and we want to get the latest book, and that didn't work for me, right? Because I had a network that I, in part, I developed with the Department of Rehabilitation out here, helped our office for disabled students didn't really have the resources to know it. They were very supportive. They just didn't really deal with it. But the bottom line is that we had to develop, I had to develop the network of transcribers, but they needed three to six months to do the books, at least three months and and sometimes I would get them one or two volumes at a time, and they barely kept ahead of the class. But, you know, it worked, but professors resisted it. And my the person who ran the Office for Students with Disabilities, said, Look, you have to work on these things, but if you're not getting cooperation from professors, and you come and tell me, and I will use the power of this office to get you what you need, there's another thing you might consider doing, she said. And I said, What's that? And Jan said, Go meet the chancellor. Make friends, yeah, friends in high places. And so I did. And Dan, oh, there you go. Became pretty good friends over the years, which was pretty cool,   Erin Edgar ** 18:15 you know, it was weird because we didn't, I didn't have that problem with the professors. They were, you know, I had a couple of old codgers, but they weren't really worried about the books. They were fine with me having the books, but it was the publishers. The publishers were irritated that that I needed them, and, you know, in an alternative format. And I didn't really, I was not. I was one of those people that if someone said they were going to do something for me, I kind of let people do it. And at the time, I was really not an advocate, advocator for myself, at that time, a very good self advocate. And so I kind of let the school interface with that. I think it would have been really interesting, if I look back on it, for me to have taken a hand in that. And I wonder what would have happened well, and at this point, you know, it's neither here nor there, but that's really fascinating. Making Friends with the chancellor, sometimes you have to do stuff like that   Michael Hingson ** 19:15 well. And the idea was really to get to know Him. And what there was, well, obviously other motivations, like, if we needed to go to a higher court to get help, we could go to the chancellor. I never had to do that, but, but the reason for meeting him and getting to know him was really just to do it and to have fun doing it. So we did,   Erin Edgar ** 19:36 yeah, and I kind of had a comparable experience. I met the Dean of the Law School for that very reason. And he said, you know, if you've got trouble, come to me, my parents got involved a little bit. And we all, you know, met together and maybe even separately at some points just to make sure that I had everything that I needed at various times. Mm. Yeah, and I made friends with the some of the assistant deans at the law school, in particular because of the situation, and one of whom was the Dean of the Law School Student Affairs, who was helping me to get what I needed. And for a while, when I was in law school and beyond. He was like, We lent books to each other. It was very funny. We found out we had the same reading tastes beyond law books. It wasn't, you know, legal at all, but we were like, trading books and things. So a lot of really good relationships came out of that.   Michael Hingson ** 20:37 And I think that's extremely important to to do. And I think that's one of the things that that offices for students with disabilities that tend to want to do everything for you. I think that's one of the things that it's a problem with those offices, because if you don't learn to do them, and if you don't learn to do them in college, how are you going to be able to be able to really act independently and as an advocate after college, so you have to learn that stuff   Erin Edgar ** 21:05 Absolutely. That's a very good point.   Michael Hingson ** 21:09 So I, I think it was extremely important to do it, and we did, and had a lot of fun doing it. So it was, was good. What are some of the biggest misconceptions you think that people had about you as a blind child growing up?   Erin Edgar ** 21:25 Oh yeah, that's a great question. I think that one of the biggest misconceptions that people had about me, especially when I was younger, is that I would know I would be sort of relegated to staying at home with parents all of my life, or being a stay at home parent and not able to be kind of professionally employed and earning, you know, earning a living wage. Now, I have my own business, and that's where most of my money goes at the same at this point. So, you know, earning a living wage might be up in the air at the moment. Ha, ha. But the the one thing I think that the biggest misconception that people had, and this is even like teachers at the blind school, it was very rare for blind children of my age to grow up and be, you know, professionals in, I don't want to say high places, but like people able to support themselves without a government benefit backing them up. And it was kind of always assumed that we would be in that category, that we would be less able than our sighted peers to do that. And so that was a huge misconception, even you know, in the school that I was attending. I think that was the, really the main one and one misconception that I had then and still have today, is that if I'm blind, I can't speak for myself. This still happens today. For instance, if I'm if I want, if I'm going somewhere and I just happen to be with someone sighted, they will talk whoever I'm, wherever I'm at, they will talk to the sighted person, right? They won't talk to you. They won't talk to me. And so, for instance, simple example, if I'm somewhere with my husband, and we happen to be walking together and we go somewhere that I need to go, they will talk to him because he's guiding me, and they won't talk. And he's like, don't talk to me. I have no idea, you know, talk to her, and part of that is I'm half a step behind him. People naturally gravitate to the people that are leading. However, I noticed, even when I was a young adult, and I would go, you know, to the doctor, and I would be with my my parents, like, maybe I'm visiting them, and I need to go to the doctor, they would talk to them and not me, yeah, which is kind of sad. And I think it happens a lot, a lot more than people realize.   Michael Hingson ** 24:10 Yeah, it does. And one of my favorite stories is, is this, I got married in 1982 and my wife has always been, or had always been. She passed away in 2022 but she was always in a wheelchair. And we went to a restaurant one Saturday for breakfast. We were standing at the counter waiting to be seated, and the hostess was behind the counter, and nothing was happening. And finally, Karen said to me, she doesn't know who to talk to, you know? Because Karen, of course, is, is in a wheelchair, so actually, she's clearly shorter than this, this person behind the counter, and then there's me and and, of course, I'm not making eye contact, and so Karen just said she doesn't know who to talk to. I said, you know? All she's gotta do is ask us where we would like to sit or if we'd like to have breakfast, and we can make it work. Well, she she got the message, and she did, and the rest of the the day went fine, but that was really kind of funny, that we had two of us, and she just didn't know how to deal with either of us, which was kind of cute. Mm, hmm. Well, you know, it brings up another question. You use the term earlier, visually impaired. There's been a lot of effort over the years. A lot of the professionals, if you will, created this whole terminology of visually impaired, and they say, well, you're blind or you're visually impaired. And visually impaired means you're not totally blind, but, but you're still visually impaired. And finally, blind people, I think, are starting to realize what people who are deaf learned a long time ago, and that is that if you take take a deaf person and you refer to them as hearing impaired, there's no telling what they might do to you, because they recognize that impaired is not true and they shouldn't be equated with people who have all of their hearing. So it's deaf or hard of hearing, which is a whole lot less of an antagonistic sort of concept than hearing impaired. We're starting to get blind people, and not everyone's there yet, and we're starting to get agencies, and not every agency is there yet, to recognize that it's blind or low vision, as opposed to blind or here or visually impaired, visually impaired. What do you think about that? How does and how does that contribute to the attitudes that people had toward you?   Erin Edgar ** 26:38 Yeah, so when I was growing up, I was handicapped, yeah, there was that too, yeah, yeah, that I was never fond of that, and my mother softened it for me, saying, well, we all have our handicaps or shortcomings, you know, and but it was really, what was meant was you had Something that really held you back. I actually, I say, this is so odd. I always, I usually say I'm totally blind. Because when I say blind, the immediate question people have is, how blind are you? Yeah, which gets back to stuff, yeah, yeah. If you're blind, my opinion, if you're blind, you're you're blind, and if you have low vision, you have partial sight. And visually impaired used to be the term, you know, when I was younger, that people use, and that's still a lot. It's still used a lot, and I will use it occasionally, generally. I think that partially sighted, I have partial vision is, is what I've heard people use. That's what, how my husband refers to himself. Low Vision is also, you know, all those terms are much less pejorative than actually being impaired,   Michael Hingson ** 27:56 right? That's kind of really the issue, yeah. My, my favorite example of all of this is a past president of the National Federation of the Blind, Ken Jernigan, you've heard of him, I assume, Oh, sure. He created a document once called a definition of blindness, and his definition, he goes through and discusses various conditions, and he asks people if, if you meet these conditions, are you blind or not? But then what he eventually does is he comes up with a definition, and his definition, which I really like, is you are blind if your eyesight has decreased to the point where you have to use alternatives to full eyesight in order to function, which takes into account totally blind and partially blind people. Because the reality is that most of those people who are low vision will probably, or they may probably, lose the rest of their eyesight. And the agencies have worked so hard to tell them, just use your eyesight as best you can. And you know you may need to use a cane, but use your eyesight as best you can, and if you go blind, then we're going to have to teach you all over again, rather than starting by saying blindness is really okay. And the reality is that if you learn the techniques now, then you can use the best of all worlds.   Erin Edgar ** 29:26 I would agree with that. I would also say you should, you know, people should use what they have. Yeah, using everything you have is okay. And I think there's a lot of a lot of good to be said for learning the alternatives while you're still able to rely on something else.   Michael Hingson ** 29:49 Point taken exactly you know, because   Erin Edgar ** 29:53 as you age, you get more and more in the habit of doing things one way, and it's. Very hard to break out of that. And if you haven't learned an alternative, there's nothing you feel like. There's nothing to fall back on, right? And it's even harder because now you're in the situation of urgency where you feel like you're missing something and you're having to learn something new, whereas if you already knew it and knew different ways to rely on things you would be just like picking a memory back up, rather than having to learn something new. Well, I've never been in that position, so I can't say, but in the abstract, I think that's a good definition.   Michael Hingson ** 30:34 Well, there are a lot of examples, like, take a person who has some eyesight, and they're not encouraged to use a cane. And I know someone who was in this situation. I think I've told the story on this podcast, but he lived in New Jersey and was travel. And traveled every day from New Jersey into Philadelphia to work, and he was on a reasonably cloudy day, was walking along. He had been given a cane by the New Jersey Commission for the Blind, but he they didn't really stress the value of using it. And so he was walking along the train to go in, and he came to the place where he could turn in and go into the car. And he did, and promptly fell between two cars because he wasn't at the right place. And then the train actually started to move, but they got it stopped, and so he was okay, but as as he tells the story, he certainly used his cane from then on. Because if he had been using the cane, even though he couldn't see it well because it was dark, or not dark, cloudy, he would have been able to see that he was not at the place where the car entrance was, but rather he was at the junction between two cars. And there's so many examples of that. There's so many reasons why it's important to learn the skills. Should a partially blind or a low vision person learn to read Braille? Well, depends on circumstances, of course, I think, to a degree, but the value of learning Braille is that you have an alternative to full print, especially if there's a likelihood that you're going to lose the rest of your eyesight. If you psychologically do it now, that's also going to psychologically help you prepare better for not having any eyesight later.   Erin Edgar ** 32:20 And of course, that leads to to blind children these days learn how to read, yeah, which is another issue.   Michael Hingson ** 32:28 Which is another issue because educators are not teaching Braille nearly as much as they should, and the literacy rate is so low. And the fact of the matter is even with George Kircher, who invented the whole DAISY format and and all the things that you can do with the published books and so on. The reality is there is still something to be said for learning braille. You don't have sighted children just watching television all the time, although sometimes my parents think they do, but, but the point is that they learn to read, and there's a value of really learning to read. I've been in an audience where a blind speaker was delivering a speech, and he didn't know or use Braille. He had a device that was, I think what he actually used was a, was, it was a Victor Reader Stream, which is   Erin Edgar ** 33:24 one of those, right?   Michael Hingson ** 33:25 I think it was that it may have been something else, but the bottom line is, he had his speech written out, and he would play it through earphones, and then he would verbalize his speech. Oh, no, that's just mess me up. Oh, it would. It was very disjointed and and I think that for me, personally, I read Braille pretty well, but I don't like to read speeches at all. I want to engage the audience, and so it's really important to truly speak with the audience and not read or do any of those other kinds of things.   Erin Edgar ** 33:57 I would agree. Now I do have a Braille display that I, I use, and, you know, I do use it for speeches. However, I don't put the whole speech on   Michael Hingson ** 34:10 there that I me too. I have one, and I use it for, I know, I have notes. Mm, hmm,   Erin Edgar ** 34:16 notes, yeah. And so I feel like Braille, especially for math. You know, when you said math and physics, like, Yeah, I can't imagine doing math without Braille. That just doesn't, you know, I can't imagine it, and especially in, you know, geometry and trigonometry with those diagrams. I don't know how you would do it without a Braille textbook, but yeah, there. There's certainly something to be said for for the the wonderful navigation abilities with, you know, e published audio DAISY books. However, it's not a substitute for knowing how to   Michael Hingson ** 34:55 read. Well, how are you going to learn to spell? How are you going to really learn sit? Structure, how are you going to learn any of those basic skills that sighted kids get if you don't use Braille? Absolutely, I think that that's one of the arenas where the educational system, to a large degree, does such a great disservice to blind kids because it won't teach them Braille.   Erin Edgar ** 35:16 Agreed, agreed. Well, thank you for this wonderful spin down Braille, Braille reading lane here. That was fun.   Michael Hingson ** 35:27 Well, so getting back to you a little bit, you must have thought or realized that probably when you went into law, you were going to face some challenges. But what was the defining moment that made you decide you're going to go into law, and what kind of challenges have you faced? If you face challenges, my making an assumption, but you know what?   Erin Edgar ** 35:45 Oh, sure. So the defining moment when I decided I wanted to go into law. It was a very interesting time for me. I was teenager. Don't know exactly how old I was, but I think I was in high school, and I had gone through a long period where I wanted to, like, be a music major and go into piano and voice and be a performer in those arenas, and get a, you know, high level degree whatnot. And then I began having this began becoming very interested in watching the Star Trek television series. Primarily I was out at the time the next generation, and I was always fascinated by the way that these people would find these civilizations on these planets, and they would be at odds in the beginning, and they would be at each other's throats, and then by the end of the day, they were all kind of   Michael Hingson ** 36:43 liking each other. And John Luke Picard didn't play a flute,   Erin Edgar ** 36:47 yes, and he also turned into a Borg, which was traumatic for me. I had to rate local summer to figure out what would happen. I was in I was in trauma. Anyway, my my father and I bonded over that show. It was, it was a wonderful sort of father daughter thing. We did it every weekend. And I was always fascinated by, like, the whole, the whole aspect of different ideologies coming together. And it always seemed to me that that's what human humanity should be about. As I, you know, got older, I thought, how could I be involved in helping people come together? Oh, let's go into law. Because, you know, our government's really good at that. That was the high school student in me. And I thought at the time, I wanted to go into the Foreign Service and work in the international field and help, you know, on a net, on a you know, foreign policy level. I quickly got into law school and realized two things simultaneously in my second year, international law was very boring, and there were plenty of problems in my local community that I could help solve, like, why work on the international stage when people in my local community are suffering in some degree with something and so I completely changed my focus to wanting to work in an area where I could bring people together and work for, you know, work on an individualized level. And as I went into the legal field, that was, it was part of the reason I went into the mediation, because that was one of the things that we did, was helping people come together. I realized, though, as I became a lawyer and actually started working in the field, most of the legal system is not based on that. It's based on who has the best argument. I wanted no part of that. Yeah, I want no part of that at all. I want to bring people together. Still, the Star Trek mentality is working here, and so when I when I started my own law firm, my immediate question to myself was, how can I now that I'm out doing my own thing, actually bring people together? And the answer that I got was help families come together, especially people thinking about their end of life decisions and gathering their support team around them. Who they want to help them? If they are ever in a situation where they become ill and they can't manage their affairs, or if you know upon their death, who do they want to help them and support them. And how can I use the law to allow that to happen? And so that's how I am working, to use the law for healing and bringing people together, rather than rather than winning an argument.   Michael Hingson ** 39:59 Yeah. Yeah, well, and I think there's a lot of merit to that. I I value the law a great deal, and I I am not an attorney or anything like that, but I have worked in the world of legislation, and I've worked in the world of dealing with helping to get legislation passed and and interacting with lawyers. And my wife and I worked with an attorney to set up our our trust, and then couple of years ago, I redid it after she passed away. And so I think that there was a lot of a lot of work that attorneys do that is extremely important. Yeah, there are, there are attorneys that were always dealing with the best arguments, and probably for me, the most vivid example of that, because it was so captivating when it happened, was the whole OJ trial back in the 1990s we were at a county fair, and we had left going home and turned on the radio, only To hear that the police were following OJ, and they finally arrested him. And then when the trial occurred, we while I was working at a company, and had a radio, and people would would come around, and we just had the radio on, and followed the whole trial. And it was interesting to see all the manipulation and all the movement, and you're right. It came down to who had the best argument, right or wrong?   Erin Edgar ** 41:25 The bloody glove. If it doesn't fit, you must acquit. Yeah, yep, I remember that. I remember where I was when they arrested him, too. I was at my grandparents house, and we were watching it on TV. My grandfather was captivated by the whole thing. But yes, there's certainly, you know, some manipulation. There's also, there are also lawyers who do a lot of good and a lot of wonderful things. And in reality, you know, most cases don't go to trial. They're settled in some way. And so, you know, there isn't always, you know, who has the best argument. It's not always about that, right? And at the same time, that is, you know, what the system is based on, to some extent. And really, when our country was founded, our founding fathers were a bunch of, like, acted in a lot of ways, like a bunch of children. If you read books on, you know, the Constitution, it was, it was all about, you know, I want this in here, and I want that in here. And, you know, a lot of argument around that, which, of course, is to be expected. And many of them did not expect our country's government to last beyond their lifetimes. Uh, James Madison was the exception, but all the others were like, Ed's going to fail. And yet, I am very, very proud to be a lawyer in this country, because while it's not perfect, our founding documents actually have a lot of flexibility and how and can be interpreted to fit modern times, which is, I think the beauty of them and exactly what the Founders intended for.   Michael Hingson ** 43:15 Yeah, and I do think that some people are taking advantage of that and causing some challenges, but that's also part of our country and part of our government. I like something Jimmy Carter once said, which was, we must adjust to changing times while holding to unwavering principles. And I think absolutely that's the part that I think sometimes is occasionally being lost, that we forget those principles, or we want to manipulate the principles and make them something that they're not. But he was absolutely right. That is what we need to do, and we can adjust to changing times without sacrificing principles. Absolutely.   Erin Edgar ** 43:55 I firmly believe that, and I would like to kind of turn it back to what we were talking about before, because you actually asked me, What are some challenges that I have faced, and if it's okay with you, I would like to get back to that. Oh, sure. Okay. Well, so I have faced some challenges for you know, to a large extent, though I was very well accommodated. I mean, the one challenge with the books that was challenging when I took the bar exam, oh, horror of horrors. It was a multiple, multiple shot deal, but it finally got done. However, it was not, you know, my failing to pass the first time or times was not the fault of the actual board of law examiners. They were very accommodating. I had to advocate for myself a little bit, and I also had to jump through some hoops. For example, I had to bring my own person to bubble in my responses on the multiple choice part, it. And bring my own person in to kind of monitor me while I did the essay portion. But they allowed me to have a computer, they allowed me to have, you know, the screen reader. They allowed me to have time and a half to do the the exam. And so we're accommodating in that way. And so no real challenges there. You know, some hoops to jump through. But it got all worked out.   Michael Hingson ** 45:23 And even so, some of that came about because blind people actually had to go all the way to the Supreme Court. Yes, the bar to the Bar Association to recognize that those things needed to be that way,   Erin Edgar ** 45:37 absolutely. And so, you know, I was lucky to come into this at a time where that had already been kind of like pre done for me. I didn't have to deal with that as a challenge. And so the only other challenges I had, some of them, were mine, like, you know, who's going to want to hire this blind person? Had a little bit of, you know, kind of challenge there, with that mindset issue for a while there, and I did have some challenges when I was looking for employment after I'd worked for legal aid for a while, and I wanted to move on and do something else. And I knew I didn't want to work for a big, big firm, and I would, I was talking to some small law firms about hiring me, small to mid size firms. And I would get the question of, well, you're blind, so what kind of accommodations do you need? And we would talk about, you know, computer, special software to make a talk, you know, those kinds of things. And it always ended up that, you know, someone else was hired. And I can, you know, I don't have proof that the blindness and the hesitancy around hiring a disabled person or a blind person was in back of that decision. And at the same time, I had the sense that there was some hesitation there as well, so that, you know, was a bit of a challenge, and starting my own law firm was its own challenge, because I had to experiment with several different software systems to Find one that was accessible enough for me to use. And the system I'm thinking about in particular, I wouldn't use any other system, and yet, I'm using practically the most expensive estate planning drafting system out there, because it happens to be the most accessible. It's also the most expensive. Always that. There's always that. And what's it called? I'm curious. It's called wealth Council, okay, wealth. And then the word councils, Council, SEL, and it's wonderful. And the folks there are very responsive. If I say something's not accessible, I mean, they have fixed things for me in the past. Isn't that great? And complain, isn't that wonderful? It is wonderful. And that's, that's awesome. I had a CRM experience with a couple of different like legal CRM software. I used one for a while, and it was okay. But then, you know, everyone else said this other one was better and it was actually less accessible. So I went back to the previous one, you know. So I have to do a lot of my own testing, which is kind of a challenge in and of itself. I don't have people testing software for me. I have to experiment and test and in some cases, pay for something for a while before I realize it's not, you know, not worth it. But now I have those challenges pretty much ironed out. And I have a paralegal who helps me do some things that, like she proof reads my documents, for instance, because otherwise there may be formatting things that I'm not, that I miss. And so I have the ability to have cited assistance with things that I can't necessarily do myself, which is, you know, absolutely fine,   Michael Hingson ** 49:04 yeah. Now, do you use Lexus? Is it accessible?   Erin Edgar ** 49:08 I don't need Lexus, yeah, yeah. I mean, I have, I'm a member of the Bar Association, of my, my state bar association, which is not, not voluntary. It's mandatory. But I'm a member primarily because they have a search, a legal search engine that they work with that we get for free. I mean, with our members, there you go. So there you go. So I don't need Lexus or West Law or any of those other search engines for what I do. And if I was, like, really into litigation and going to court all time and really doing deep research, I would need that. But I don't. I can use the one that they have, that we can use so and it's, it's a entirely web based system. It's fairly accessible   Michael Hingson ** 49:58 well, and. That makes it easier to as long as you've got people's ears absolutely make it accessible, which makes a lot of sense.   Erin Edgar ** 50:08 Yeah, it certainly does well.   Michael Hingson ** 50:10 So do you regard yourself as a resilient person? Has blindness impacted that or helped make that kind of more the case for you? Do you think I do resilience is such an overused term, but it's fair. I know   Erin Edgar ** 50:24 I mean resilience is is to my mind, a resilient person is able to face uh, challenges with a relatively positive outlook in and view a challenge as something to be to be worked through rather than overcome, and so yes, I do believe that blindness, in and of itself, has allowed me to find ways to adapt to situations and pivot in cases where, you know, I need to find an alternative to using a mouse. For instance, how would I do that? And so in other areas of life, I am, you know, because I'm blind, I'm able to more easily pivot into finding alternative solutions. I do believe that that that it has made me more resilient.   Michael Hingson ** 51:25 Do you think that being blind has caused you, and this is an individual thing, because I think that there are those who don't. But do you think that it's caused you to learn to listen better?   Erin Edgar ** 51:39 That's a good question, because I actually, I have a lot of sighted friends, and one of the things that people just assume is that, wow, you must be a really good listener. Well, my husband would tell you that's not always the case. Yeah. My wife said the same thing, yeah. You know, like everyone else, sometimes I hear what I want to hear in a conversation and at the same time, one of the things that I do tell people is that, because I'm blind, I do rely on other senses more, primarily hearing, I would say, and that hearing provides a lot of cues for me about my environment, and I've learned to be more skillful at it. So I, I would say that, yes, I am a good listener in terms of my environment, very sensitive to that in in my environment, in terms of active listening to conversations and being able to listen to what's behind what people say, which is another aspect of listening. I think that that is a skill that I've developed over time with conscious effort. I don't think I'm any better of a quote, unquote listener than anybody else. If I hadn't developed that primarily in in my mediation, when I was doing that, that was a huge thing for us, was to be able to listen, not actually to what people were saying, but what was behind what people were saying, right? And so I really consciously developed that skill during those years and took it with me into my legal practice, which is why I am very, very why I very much stress that I'm not only an attorney, but I'm also a counselor at law. That doesn't mean I'm a therapist, but it does mean I listen to what people say so that and what's behind what people say, so that with the ear towards providing them the legal solution that meets their needs as they describe them in their words.   Michael Hingson ** 53:47 Well, I think for me, I learned to listen, but it but it is an exercise, and it is something that you need to practice, and maybe I learned to do it a little bit better, because I was blind. For example, I learned to ride a bike, and you have to learn to listen to what's going on around you so you don't crash into cars. Oh, but I'd fall on my face. You can do it. But what I what I really did was, when I was I was working at a company, and was told that the job was going to be phased out because I wasn't a revenue producer, and the company was an engineering startup and had to bring in more revenue producers. And I was given the choice of going away or going into sales, which I had never done. And as I love to tell people, I lowered my standards and went from science to sales. But the reality is that that I think I've always and I think we all always sell in one way or another, but I also knew what the unemployment rate among employable blind people was and is, yeah, and so I went into sales with with no qualms. But there I really learned to listen. And and it was really a matter of of learning to commit, not just listen, but really learning to communicate with the people you work with. And I think that that I won't say blindness made me better, but what it did for me was it made me use the technologies like the telephone, perhaps more than some other people. And I did learn to listen better because I worked at it, not because I was blind, although they're related   Erin Edgar ** 55:30 exactly. Yeah, and I would say, I would 100% agree I worked at it. I mean, even when I was a child, I worked at listening to to become better at, kind of like analyzing my environment based on sounds that were in it. Yeah, I wouldn't have known. I mean, it's not a natural gift, as some people assume, yeah, it's something you practice and you have to work at. You get to work at.   Michael Hingson ** 55:55 Well, as I point out, there are people like SEAL Team Six, the Navy Seals and the Army Rangers and so on, who also practice using all of their senses, and they learn, in general, to become better at listening and other and other kinds of skills, because they have to to survive, but, but that's what we all do, is if we do it, right, we're learning it. It's not something that's just naturally there, right? I agree, which I think is important. So you're working in a lot of estate planning and so on. And I mentioned earlier that we it was back in 1995 we originally got one, and then it's now been updated, but we have a trust. What's the difference between having, like a trust and a will?   Erin Edgar ** 56:40 Well, that's interesting that you should ask. So A will is the minimum that pretty much, I would say everyone needs, even though 67% of people don't have one in the US. And it is pretty much what everyone needs. And it basically says, you know, I'm a, I'm a person of sound mind, and I know who is important to me and what I have that's important to me. And I wanted to go to these people who are important to me, and by the way, I want this other person to manage things after my death. They're also important to me and a trust, basically, there are multiple different kinds of trusts, huge numbers of different kinds. And the trust that you probably are referring to takes the will to kind of another level and provides more direction about about how to handle property and how how it's to be dealt with, not only after death, but also during your lifetime. And trusts are relatively most of them, like I said, there are different kinds, but they can be relatively flexible, and you can give more direction about how to handle that property than you can in a will, like, for instance, if you made an estate plan and your kids were young, well, I don't want my children to have access to this property until they're responsible adults. So maybe saying, in a trust until they're age 25 you can do that, whereas in a will, you it's more difficult to do that.   Michael Hingson ** 58:18 And a will, as I understand it, is a lot more easily contested than than a trust.   Erin Edgar ** 58:24 You know, it does depend, but yes, it is easily contested. That's not to say that if you have a trust, you don't need a will, which is a misconception that some, yeah, we have a will in our trust, right? And so, you know, you need the will for the court. Not everyone needs a trust. I would also venture to say that if you don't have a will on your death, the law has ideas about how your property should be distributed. So if you don't have a will, you know your property is not automatically going to go to the government as unclaimed, but if you don't have powers of attorney for your health care and your finance to help you out while you're alive, you run the risk of the A judge appointing someone you would not want to make your health care and financial decisions. And so I'm going to go off on a tangent here. But I do feel very strongly about this, even blind people who and disabled people who are, what did you call it earlier, the the employable blind community, but maybe they're not employed. They don't have a lot of   Michael Hingson ** 59:34 unemployed, unemployed, the unemployable blind people, employable   Erin Edgar ** 59:38 blind people, yes, you know, maybe they're not employed, they're on a government benefit. They don't have a lot of assets. Maybe they don't necessarily need that will. They don't have to have it. And at the same time, if they don't have those, those documents that allow people to manage their affairs during their lifetime. Um, who's going to do it? Yeah, who's going to do that? Yeah, you're giving up control of your body, right, potentially, to someone you would not want, just because you're thinking to yourself, well, I don't need a will, and nothing's going to happen to me. You're giving control of your body, perhaps, to someone you don't want. You're not taking charge of your life and and you are allowing doctors and hospitals and banks to perpetuate the belief that you are not an independent person, right? I'm very passionate about it. Excuse me, I'll get off my soapbox now. That's okay. Those are and and to a large extent, those power of attorney forms are free. You can download them from your state's website. Um, they're minimalistic. They're definitely, I don't use them because I don't like them for my state. But you can get you can use them, and you can have someone help you fill them out. You could sign them, and then look, you've made a decision about who's going to help you when you're not able to help yourself,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:07 which is extremely important to do. And as I mentioned, we went all the way and have a trust, and we funded the trust, and everything is in the trust. But I think that is a better way to keep everything protected, and it does provide so much more direction for whoever becomes involved, when, when you decide to go elsewhere, then, as they put it, this mortal coil. Yes, I assume that the coil is mortal. I don't know.   Erin Edgar ** 1:01:37 Yeah, who knows? Um, and you know trusts are good for they're not just for the Uber wealthy, which is another misconception. Trust do some really good things. They keep your situation, they keep everything more or less private, like, you know, I said you need a will for the court. Well, the court has the will, and it most of the time. If you have a trust, it just says, I want it to go, I want my stuff to go into the Michael hingson Trust. I'm making that up, by the way, and I, you know, my trust just deals with the distribution, yeah, and so stuff doesn't get held up in court. The court doesn't have to know about all the assets that you own. It's not all public record. And that's a huge, you know, some people care. They don't want everyone to know their business. And when I tell people, you know, I can go on E courts today and pull up the estate of anyone that I want in North Carolina and find out what they owned if they didn't have a will, or if they just had a will. And people like, really, you can do that? Oh, absolutely, yeah. I don't need any fancy credentials. It's all a matter of public record. And if you have a trust that does not get put into the court record unless it's litigated, which you know, it does happen, but not often,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:56 but I but again, I think that, you know, yeah, and I'm not one of those Uber wealthy people. But I have a house. We we used to have a wheelchair accessible van for Karen. I still have a car so that when I need to be driven somewhere, rather than using somebody else's vehicle, we use this and those are probably the two biggest assets, although I have a bank account with with some in it, not a lot, not nearly as much as Jack Benny, anyway. But anyway, the bottom line is, yeah, but the bottom line is that I think that the trust keeps everything a lot cleaner. And it makes perfect sense. Yep, it does. And I didn't even have to go to my general law firm that I usually use. Do we cheat them? Good, and how so it worked out really well. Hey, I watched the Marx Brothers. What can I say?   Erin Edgar ** 1:03:45 You watch the Marx Brothers? Of course.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:49 Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and I'm glad that we did it and that we also got to talk about the whole issue of wills and trusts and so on, which is, I think, important. So any last things that you'd like to say to people, and also, do you work with clients across the country or just in North Carolina?   Erin Edgar ** 1:04:06 So I work with clients in North Carolina, I will say that. And one last thing that I would like to say to people is that it's really important to build your support team. Whether you're blind, you know, have another disability, you need people to help you out on a day to day basis, or you decide that you want people to help you out. If you're unable to manage your affairs at some point in your life, it's very important to build that support team around you, and there is nothing wrong. You can be self reliant and still have people on your team yes to to be there for you, and that is very important. And there's absolutely no shame, and you're not relinquishing your independence by doing that. That. So today, I encourage everyone to start thinking about who's on your team. Do you want them on your team? Do you want different people on your team? And create a support team? However that looks like, whatever that looks like for you, that has people on it that you know, love and trust,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:18 everybody should have a support team. I think there is no question, at least in my mind, about that. So good point. Well, if people want to maybe reach out to you, how do they do that?   Erin Edgar ** 1:05:29 Sure, so I am on the interwebs at Erin Edgar legal.com that's my website where you can learn more about my law firm and all the things that I do,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:42 and Erin is E r i n, just Yes, say that Edgar, and   Erin Edgar ** 1:05:45 Edgar is like Edgar. Allan Poe, hopefully less scary, and you can find the contact information for me on the website. By Facebook, you can find me on Facebook occasionally as Erin Baker, Edgar, three separate words, that is my personal profile, or you can and Michael will have in the show notes the company page for my welcome as   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:11 well. Yeah. Well, thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening. This has been a fun episode. It's been great to have Erin on, love to hear your thoughts out there who have been listening to this today. Please let us know what you think. You're welcome to email me at Michael H i@accessibe.com M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, I wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We really appreciate getting good ratings from people and reading and getting to know what you think. If you know anyone who you think might be a good guest, you know some people you think ought to come on unstoppable mindset. Erin, of course, you as well. We would appreciate it if you'd give us an introduction, because we're always looking for more people to have come on and help us show everyone that we're all more unstoppable than we think we are, and that's really what it's all about, and what we want to do on the podcast. So hope that you'll all do that, and in the meanwhile, with all that, Erin, I want to thank you once more for being here and being with us today. This has been a lot of fun. Thank you so much,   Erin Edgar ** 1:07:27 Michael. I very much enjoyed it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:34 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite

Molly Schmidt, CEO of the American Red Cross, Pacific Islands Region, recognizes the works of volunteerism on a grassroots level and how it can inform an individual to do more for their community. She shares the need for everyday people to brush up on their CPR certification, take a babysitting course, and visit the Hawaii Red Cross website to discover what you excel at to be of service in your neighborhood, starting at home. Molly Schmidt speaks on the history and a few significant public figures of Hawaii Red Cross, and shares her personal experiences when working with other agencies during the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami and the 2023 Maui Wildland Fires. Kathy With a K is your host.  "Hawaii Matters", a public service community program that airs on Sundays at 6:30 a.m. Hawaii across Pacific Media Group Oahu radio stations: KDDB 102.7 Da Bomb | KQMQ HI93 | KUMU 94.7 KUMU | KPOI 105.9 The WaveTo be featured or for inquiries on "Hawaii Matters", please email: kathywithak@1059thewavefm.com

Sit back and relax but pay attention to my conversation with Gee Ranasinha. Gee lives in the Northeast part of France. As he puts it, his marketing experience goes back to the “days of dial-up internet and AOL CDs”. During our conversation Gee tells us how he progressed from working with film, (do you know what that is?), to now working with the most advanced digital and other technological systems.   He is the CEO of his own marketing company KEXINO. He talks a bit about what makes a good marketing firm and why some companies are more successful than others. He says, for example, that most companies do the same things as every other company. While labels and logos may be different, if you cover up the logos the messages and ways to provide them are the same. The successful firms have learned to distinguish themselves by being different in some manner. He practices what he preaches right down to the name of his company, KEXINO. He will tell us where the company name came from. You will see why I says he practices what he preaches.   Gee gives us a great history of a lot of marketing efforts and initiatives. If you are at all involved with working to make yourself or your company successful marketing wise, then what Gee has to say will be especially relevant to you. This is one of those episodes that is worth hearing more than once.     About the Guest:   Gee has been in marketing since the days of dial-up internet and AOL CDs. Today, he's the CEO of KEXINO, a marketing agency and behavioral science practice for small to medium-sized businesses. Over the past 17 years KEXINO has helped over 400 startups and small businesses in around 20 countries grow awareness, reputation, trust - and sales. A Fellow of the Chartered Institute Of Marketing, Gee is also Visiting Professor at two business schools, teaching Marketing and Behavioral Science to final-year MBA students. Outside of work Gee loves to cook, listens to music on a ridiculously expensive hi-fi, and plays jazz piano very badly.    Ways to connect with Gee:   KEXINO website:  https://kexino.com LinkedIn:  https://linkedin.com/in/ranasinha YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/c/Kexino Instagram:  https://instagram.com/wearekexino TikTok:  https://tiktok.com/@kexino Threads: https://www.threads.net/@wearekexino BlueSky:  https://bsky.app/profile/kexino.com     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:16 Well and a gracious hello to you, wherever you may be, you are now listening to an episode of unstoppable mindset. I am your host, Mike or Michael. I don't really care which hingson and our guest today is Gee Ranasinha, who is a person who is very heavily involved in doing marketing and so on. Gee has been marketing for a long time, and reading his bio, he talks about being in marketing since the days of dial up and AOL and CDs. I remember the first time I tried to subscribe to AOL. It was a floppy disk. But anyway, that's okay. The bottom line is that does go back many, many years. That's when we had Rs 232 cables and modems. Now people probably don't mostly know what they are unless they're technically involved and they're all built into the technology that we use. But that's another history lesson for later. So Gee, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. This should be a fun subject and thing to talk about.   Gee Ranasinha ** 02:27 Well, thank you very much for inviting me, Michael, I do. I do appreciate it.   Michael Hingson ** 02:31 Well, I'm looking forward to it and getting a chance to talk. And love to hear some of your your old stories about marketing, as well as the new ones, and of course, what lessons we learned from the old ones that helped in the new ones. And of course, I suspect there'll also be a lot of situations where we didn't learn the lessons that we should have, which is another story, right?   Gee Ranasinha ** 02:50 Yeah, history does tend to repeat itself, unfortunately, and   Michael Hingson ** 02:55 that usually happens because we don't pay attention to the lessons.   Gee Ranasinha ** 02:59 Yeah, yeah, we, we, I think we think we know better. But I mean, it's, it's, it's funny, because, you know, if you look at other other industries, you know, if, if you want to be an architect, right, you would certainly look back to the works of, you know, Le Corbusier or Frank Lloyd Wright or Renzo Piano, or, you know, some of the great architects, and you would look back on their work, look how they did it. And you would, you know, turn back the the annals of history to to see what had gone before. But for some reason, in our industry, in marketing, we we don't think we can learn from the lessons that our erstwhile peers have had in the past, and we've so as a result, we tend to sort of rename things that have gone before, so that the newer generation of marketers will actually pay attention to them. So we give things new names. But actually, if you, if you scratch the surface and look a little bit deeper. It's actually nothing new at all. And I don't quite know why that is. I think people think that they know better than the people who've gone before them, because of the technology, because you know so much of the execution the promotion side of marketing is technology based. They I'm guessing that people don't see a relevance to what happened in the past because of the technology aspect being different, right? But what I contend is that the the essence. Of marketing is about understanding human behavior and their reactions to particular inputs, impulses, right? Um, in which case, we have plenty to learn from the people who've you know, who've walked in our in the walk this path before, and we should be a little bit, maybe a little bit more humble and open minded into accepting that we don't know everything, and we maybe don't even know what we don't know.   Michael Hingson ** 05:36 I always remember back in what was it, 1982 or 1983 we had a situation here in the United States where somebody planted some poison in a bottle of Tylenol in a drug store. I remember that, yeah, and within a day, the president of the company came out and said, This is what we're going to do to deal with it, including taking all the bottles of all the pills off the shelves until we check them over and make sure everyone is clean and so on. And he got right out in front of it. And I've seen so many examples since of relatively similar kinds of crises, and nobody takes a step to take a firm stand about how we're going to handle it, which is really strange, because clearly what he did really should have taught us all a lesson. Tylenol hasn't gone away, the company hasn't gone away, and the lesson should be that there is relevance in getting out in front of it and having a plan. Now I don't know whether he or anyone really had a plan in case something happened. I've never heard that, but still whatever he got right out in front of it and addressed it. And I just really wish more marketing people, when there is a crisis, would do more of that to instill confidence in consumers.   Gee Ranasinha ** 07:07 He did the right thing, right? He did, he did what you or I would have done, or we would like to think we would have done in this place, right? I, I'm, I'm guessing it was probably, not the favorite course of action, if this had been debated at board stroke shareholder level. But like I said, he he did what we all think we would have done in his place. He did the right thing. And I think that there are many instances today, more instances today than maybe in the past, where the actions of an individual they are. An individual has more freedom of expression in the past than they've had in the in the present, and they don't have to mind their P's and Q's as much. I mean, sure we know we're still talking about profit making organizations. You know, we're living in a pseudo capitalist, Neo liberal society. But surely we're still there still needs to be some kind of humanity at the end of this, right? You know, reputations take years, decades, sometimes, to build, and they can be knocked down very quickly, right, right? There's so I think some somebody, somebody, somebody a lot older and wiser than me, well, certainly wiser older. Said a brand's reputation was like a tree. It takes ages to grow, but can be knocked down very quickly, and there are plenty. You know, history is littered with examples of of organizations who haven't done the right thing.   Speaker 1 ** 09:16 Well, the Yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead. Tell me   Michael Hingson ** 09:20 the I observed this actually not too long ago, on a podcast, this whole discussion to someone, and they made an interesting point, which I think is probably relevant, which is, today we have a different environment, because we have social media. We have so many things, where communications go so quickly, and we we see so many people putting out information right or wrong, conspiracy or not, about anything and everything that comes up, that it causes people maybe to hesitate a little bit more to. Truly study what they want to say, because everyone's going to pick up on it. But at the same time, and I appreciate that at the same time, I think there are basic marketing principles. And as you point out, and as you're well aware, there is such a thing as human behavior, and while people want instant gratification, and they want to know right now what happened 20 minutes ago. The reality is we're not necessarily going to get that. The media doesn't help because they want to put everything out and get the story. But still, the reality is human nature is human nature, and ultimately, Truth will win out. And what we need to do is to really work more toward making sure that that happens.   Gee Ranasinha ** 10:48 I, I actually don't agree with that. Okay, in in, you know, in the, in the with the greatest respect, firstly, I think, I think as a cop out to use social media, information channels, news cycles, that sort of thing, because, if anything, because of the pace of the news cycle and The, you know, the fire hose of social media today, me, we're in a better position to say what we mean and not regret it, because it's forgotten it 20 minutes. Yeah, so it works, it's, it's an argument for what we're talking about not, not against   Michael Hingson ** 11:41 it, yeah. I agree. Yeah, go ahead,   Gee Ranasinha ** 11:45 yeah. And the second thing you said, truth will out. And I think truth does not without and there are plenty of people who continue to spout out misinformation and disinformation, yeah, constantly at every level of corporate at a corporate level, at a political level, at a geopolitical level, or at a local level, right? I don't want to sort of go down that rabbit hole, right, but there are, there are plenty of misquotes, myths, truths, which are never, never withdrawn and never counted, never excused and live out there in the ether, in perpetuity.   Michael Hingson ** 12:35 Yeah, it's true, but I also think that in the end, while some people continue to put their inaccurate information out, I think there are also others who have taken the time, or do take the time they put out more relevant information, and probably in the long run, more people buy into that than to misinformation. I'm not going to say it's a perfect world, but I think more often than not, enough positive information comes out that people eventually get more of the right answer than all the yammering and bad information. But it may take time.   Gee Ranasinha ** 13:18 I would love to believe that, Mike, I really would maybe I'm just too cynical, right?   Michael Hingson ** 13:27 I hear you, I hear you, and you know, I don't know I could be just as wrong. I mean, in the United States today, we've got a government with people who are definitely talking about things and saying things that most of us have always felt are untrue, but unfortunately, they're being said and pushed in such a way that more people are not opposing them. And how quickly that will change remains to be seen. And for all I know, and I think, for all I know, maybe some of what they're saying might be right, but we'll see.   Gee Ranasinha ** 14:05 I think that's the issue. I mean, I, as I said, I don't really want to jump down that politics rabbit hole, but no, not really. I think, you know, the issue is, if you say a lie enough times, people believe it. Yeah, right, yeah. And the fact that nobody's fact checking this stuff, I'm like, I said. I'm not. I'm not singling out politics. I'm singling out messaging in its widest in its widest interpretation, right, false messaging of any sort, if left unchecked. Yeah. Correct. I think the people who know an alternative reality or know that it's a lie know that it's an untruth by not publicly facts checking it, by not calling these. People out are complicit in spreading the lie.   Michael Hingson ** 15:03 Yeah, well, I think that's true, and you're right. It doesn't matter whether it's politics. It doesn't matter whether it's well, whatever it is, it's anything. And I think there's one of the beauties of of our country, your country. And I didn't explain at the beginning that G is in the you said, northwest part of France, right? Northeast, northeast, well, east, west, northeast part   Gee Ranasinha ** 15:29 of Yeah, well, near enough, you know, if you go, if you go, if you go east, far enough times you get, you get to West Anyway, don't you? Well, you get back where you started. Or maybe you don't, I don't know if, depends who you listen   Michael Hingson ** 15:39 to, right? If the Earth is flat. Well, even the Flat Earthers have had explanations for why the earth is flat and people don't fall off, but that's okay, but yeah, so northeast part of France and and I hear, I hear what you're saying, and I think it's important that people have the freedom to be able to fact check, and I, and I hope, as we grow more people will find the value of that, but that in all aspects, but that remains to be seen.   Gee Ranasinha ** 16:14 Well, I think especially in you know, perversely, now that we have the ability to check the veracity of a piece of information a lot easier, right? Almost in real time. Yeah. I think the fact that we can means that we don't, you know, you probably know the quote by what was his name? Edwin Burke, who may or may not have said that, you know, evil triumphs when good men do nothing or something like that. Along that sort of lines, some people say that he didn't say that. He did say, it doesn't matter who said it, right? It's a great quote. It's a great quote. It's a great quote. And that's what I mean about being complicit, just by the fact of not calling this stuff out, feeds the fire. Yeah, to the to the point where it becomes and especially, I'm talking with people who maybe are a little bit younger and haven't and are more likely to believe what they see on screens of whatever size, simply because it's in the public domain, um, whereas The older strokes more cynical of us may may question a lot more of what's thrown in front of our eyes. So I think all of us have a responsibility, which I don't think all of us understand the power that we yield or we're afraid to or afraid to? Yeah, absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 18:08 So tell me a little about kind of the early Gee growing up and so on, and how you got into this whole idea and arena of marketing and so on.   Gee Ranasinha ** 18:18 Well before this, I was the CMO of a software company. I was there for seven years, and before that, I was working for a company in London, working with in the print and publishing industries. So I've been around media for most of my working life, and after, after being at the software company for seven years, sort of hit a little bit of a ceiling, really. I mean, the company was a small company, and it could only grow at a certain rate, and so I wasn't really being challenged anymore. I had to wait a little bit until the company could fill the bigger shoes that had been given, if you like. You know, I mean growing pains. It's very common for companies of all sizes to go through this sort of thing. So to be honest, I probably was treading water a bit too long. But you know, you get you get complacent, don't you, you get comfortable in in the, you know the corporate job, and you know a salary at the at the end of every month, and you know corporate travel and company BMWs and expense accounts and all of that sort of trappings. And you know, I, I fell for all of that. You. Um, but I finally realized that something needed to happen. So at the end of 2007 beginning of 2008 Me and a couple of colleagues decided to start the agency, which, as you will remember, 2008 was not exactly the best time to start a marketing agency. Good time to start any agency,   Michael Hingson ** 20:29 to be honest. The other hand, there were a lot of opportunities. But yeah, I hear you. Well, yeah,   Gee Ranasinha ** 20:34 glass half full. Glass half empty, right? Yeah. But you know, luckily, with with a number of very, very supportive clients in those early days, you know, we weathered the post recession? Yeah, slow down. And 17 and a half years later, here we are. We've now. We started off with three. We were three. We're now 19. We're in nine countries. Nine of us were in the US. The rest are in Europe, South Africa, Japan, and two people in Australia. That's that, that's, that's who we are. So, you know, we're a a team of marketing, creative and business development specialists, and we work with startups and small businesses primarily in the US, even though we're based all over the place, and we combine marketing strategy, proper strategy, with a thing called behavioral science, which works with organizations to increase their awareness, their reputation, their trust, and most of all, of course, sales Right? Because sales is name of the game. Sales is what it's all about. So yeah, I'd say probably 80, 90% of our clients are in the US and, well, certainly North America anyway, and it's all sorts of industries, all sorts of sizes. We've we've got, we certainly had in the past. You know, solopreneur type businesses, small businesses and larger businesses, up to around 40 to 50 mil to revenue that sort of size, anything bigger they usually have, usually got, you know, quite well, working teams within the organization. So we're, you know, the amount of effective contribution that we can add to that is, it's obviously going to be as a percentage, much lower. So it's, it's, it's really for that, that smaller sized profile of organization, and it's not sort of limited by particular industry or category. We've, you know, we work with all sorts. We've worked in sports, healthcare, FinTech, medical, professional services, software, publishing, all sorts, right across the board.   Michael Hingson ** 23:34 What got you started in marketing in the beginning, you you know you were like everyone else. You were a kid and you grew up and so on. What? What really made you decide that this was the kind of career you wanted?   Gee Ranasinha ** 23:46 Marketing wasn't my first career. I've had a few others in the past. I actually started off my first first company, and I founded, way back when was a media production company. I was a professional photographer, advertising photographer, working with advertising agencies as well as direct corporate commissions. This is in the days of film. This was way before digital image capture.   Michael Hingson ** 24:20 So this is going back to what the 1980s   Gee Ranasinha ** 24:23 it's going to late 80s to early 90s. Yeah, and I was working with eight by 10 and four by five view cameras, sometimes called plate cameras. It was mainly studio stuff. I was happier in the studio that we did location stuff as well. But studio was where I was happiest because I could control everything. I suppose I'm on control freak at the end of the day. So I can control every highlight, every nuance, every every part of the equation. And. And and that's where I started. And then after doing that for a while, I came I got involved with professional quality digital image capture. Is very, very it is very, very beginning. And was instrumental in the the adoption of digital image capture for larger print and publishing catalog fashion houses who were looking for a way to streamline that production process, where, obviously, up until then, the processing of film had been a bottleneck, right? You couldn't, you couldn't process film any quicker than the film needed to be processed, right the the e6 process, which was the the term for using a bunch of chemicals to create slides, die, positives, transparencies. I think it used to take like 36 minutes plus drying time. So there was a, you know, close to an hour wait between shooting and actually seeing what what the result was. And that time frame could not be reduced up until that point in time, the quality of digital image capture systems wasn't really all of that, certainly wasn't a close approximation to what you could get with with film at The time, until a number of manufacturers working with chip manufacturers, were able to increase the dynamic range and the the total nuances that you could capture on digital Of course, the problem at that time was we were talking about what, what were, What today is not particularly large, but was at the time in terms of file sizes, and the computers of the day would be struggling to deal with images of that high quality, so It was always a game of catch up between the image capture hardware and the computer hardware needed to to view and manipulate the image and by manipulate it was more more manipulation in terms of optimizing the digital file for reproduction in print, because obviously that was the primary carrier of, yeah, of the information. It was for use in some kind of printed medium. It wasn't like we were doing very much with with email or websites or anything else in the in the early 90s. So the conversion process to optimize a digital image captured file, to give the best possible tonal reproduction on printed material has always been a little bit of a black art, even when we when we were digitizing transparency films, going to digital image capture made things a lot more predictable, but it also increased the computational power needed, number one, but also for photographers to actually understand a little bit more about the photo mechanical print process, and there were very few photographers who understood both, both sides of the fence. So I spent a lot of time being a pom pom girl. Basically Mike. I was, I was, I was waving the pom poms and preaching large about the benefits of digital image capture and how and educating the industries, various in photographic industries, about, you know, possible best practices. There weren't any sort of standards in place at the time,   Michael Hingson ** 29:41 and it took a while for people to really buy into that they weren't visionary enough to understand what you were saying. I bet   Gee Ranasinha ** 29:48 Well, we were also taught very few were enough, and there were two reasons. One of them was financially based, because. We were talking about a ton of money, yeah, to do this properly, we were talking about a ton of money. Just the image capture system would easily cost you 50 grand. And this, you know this, this was in the days when 50 grand was a lot of money,   Michael Hingson ** 30:18 yeah, well, I remember my first jobs out of college were working with Ray Kurzweil, who developed Omni font, optical character recognition system. Oh, my goodness me, I did not know that. And the first machine that he put out for general use, called the Kurzweil data entry machine, was only $125,000 it worked. It still took a while to make it to truly do what it needed to do, but still it was. It was the first machine, and a lot of people just didn't buy into it. It took a while to get people to see the value of why digitizing printed material was so relevant, some lawyers, Some law firms, some banks and so on, caught on, and as people realized what it would do, then they got interested. But yeah, it was very expensive,   Gee Ranasinha ** 31:14 very expensive. And I think the other reason for the reticence is just nature, to be honest. Mike, I mean, you know, as as people, as human beings, most of us are averse to change, right? Because change is an unknown, and we don't like unknowns. We like predictability. We like knowing that when we get up in the morning, the sun's gonna come up and we're gonna go through our our usual routine, and so when something comes along that up ends the status quo to the point where we need to come up with adopting new behaviors that's very uncomfortable for many people. And you know, the adoption of digitization in, you know, any industry, I think, in everybody who's worked in any particular industry has has plenty of anecdotal evidence to show how people would consciously or unconsciously dragging their feet to adopt that change because they were happier doing stuff that they knew,   Michael Hingson ** 32:32 who went out of their comfort zone, right?   Gee Ranasinha ** 32:35 Absolutely, it's natural, it's, it's, it's who we are as as as human beings, who most of us are as human beings with, obviously, we're talking about the middle of the bell curve here. I mean, there are plenty of wackos on either side just go out and do stuff, right? And, you know those, you know, some of those get, you know, locked up with in straight jackets. But the other ones tend to, sort of, you know, create true innovation and push things forward.   Michael Hingson ** 33:04 Steve Jobs, even Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, good examples of some of the people who did things that most people didn't think could be done.   Gee Ranasinha ** 33:18 You know, the true innovation always happens at the periphery, but we tend to over emphasize the median. We know we try to make averages of everything, yeah, but averages aren't what moves the needle, right? No. And you know Britain, you know, for even for marketing, obviously, that's very much, very, very much my sort of thing. Um, most organizations, most business owners, certainly most marketing managers, find comfort in in executing their marketing in ways in which they are comfortable, in ways which are somewhat expected within the industry. But the problem is, it doesn't get you noticed. It doesn't get you attention. If you're in the middle, right? You know the worst, the worst place to walk on the in the street is in the middle of the road right, pick a side, but don't walk in the middle.   34:27 Not a good idea yet.   Gee Ranasinha ** 34:30 That's our our job is to is to, number one, generate attention, because there's no way we can communicate a message unless we have someone's attention. Everything starts from the attention side of things. Now there are very, you know, various ways that we can attract attention, but attention needs to come and needs to come from somewhere. And you know the definite. Of creating attention is to to create some kind of visual, audio, or combination of the two, experience which is somewhat outside of the norm, and create some kind of emotional response that our brains want to pay attention to, right? Want to notice? Because if you're not noticed, then there's no it doesn't matter how great your product is, doesn't matter how wonderful your customer service is, or it's available in 27 colors, or it's free delivery, or what you know, all the rest of it doesn't matter, because you know, unless people know who you are, what you do, who it's for, and why they should give a crap, then you know anything else you do after that Time is is moot, is irrelevant.   Michael Hingson ** 36:00 I read an interesting email this morning from someone who was talking about why speakers don't tend to be as successful as they should be. And this person talked about you could have the greatest speech in the world. You could be   Michael Hingson ** 36:17 talking and getting standing ovations and so on, but you're not getting a lot of speaking engagements, and his comment was the reason you're not is that your talk isn't necessarily relevant. I thought that was interesting. I think there's some things to be said for relevance, but I think it's also that you're not helping to get people to think and realize that being different and getting people to think and value that is more important than we tend to want to recognize as well.   Gee Ranasinha ** 36:59 I would, I would, I would wholeheartedly agree relevance is a very important component. But, you know, I maintain that it starts with attention. Yeah, relevance, I think, within the speaking world, I yes, there's so much we can do with relevance by by coming at a subject matter topic from a totally different perspective. Yeah, right. You know, just because you have the same message as 100 other competitors doesn't mean they have to say something in the same way, right? And so even if the core message is similar, the way that we choose to present that can be, you know, 100 101 different ways. And I think that is something that we forget, and I think that's one of the reasons why so much of the marketing that we see today is ignored. Yeah, you know, there's a there's a marketing Well, I wouldn't say the marketing model. There's a communication model, okay? Sales model actually called Ada, Ida, a, I D, A, okay. So even if you've not, not worked in sales or marketing at all, if you've even seen the film Glengarry Glynn Ross, or the play that it was based on. It's actually playing in New York City at the moment. I believe, yeah, a, I D, A, which is tracking the customer experience in four steps. So the idea is you have awareness, interest, desire and action, right? A, I, D, A, and it's understanding that there are four steps to getting to the position of negotiating the deal with a prospective buyer, but number one starts with awareness. You know they need, they need to be aware that you exist and nobody's going to buy from you if they don't know who you are. They need to know who they need to know who you are before they'll buy from you. Right then obviously needs to be an interest a product market fit what you're selling is something that they could conceivably use in terms of solving a particular problem that they perceive as having the desire. Why should they buy from you, as opposed to somebody else? Why do they. Need to buy your product, as opposed to a competitive product, and then finally, action, right? So that's what we might call sales, activation or performance marketing, or, you know, sales in the old terms, right? As they would say in that film, it's getting the getting the buyer to sign on the line that is dotted. But all of this stuff starts with attention and when we're not doing a very good job, I think as a mark, as an industry, we used to be really good at it, but I think we've taken our eye off the ball somewhat, and hoped that technology would fill in the gaps of our incompetence at being able to, excuse me, being able to shape the way that we market to customers, to buyers, in ways which create the memory structures in the brain to a sufficiently acute level so that when they are in The position to buy something, they think of us, as well as probably a number a handful of other suitors that solve their problem. And this is why, I think this is the reason why, because of the over reliance of technology, I mean, this is the reason why so much of our marketing fails to generate interest, sales to generate the tangible business results that are expected of it. Because we're, we're marketing by bullet point. We're expecting buyers to buy off a fact sheet. We've, we've exercised the creativity out of the equation. And we're and, and we were just producing this vacuous, generic vanilla   Michael Hingson ** 42:12 musach, yeah, if you   Gee Ranasinha ** 42:14 like, Okay, I mean, again, you know, think of any particular industry, you can see this. It's pretty much endemic. You can have two totally different organizations selling something purportedly solving the same problem. And you can look at two pieces of you can look at a piece of marketing from each company. And if you covered up the logo of each person of each company's marketing output, 10 will get you five that what's actually contained in the messaging is as equally valid for company A as it is for Company B, and that's a real problem.   Michael Hingson ** 43:00 It's not getting anyone's attention or creating awareness.   Gee Ranasinha ** 43:03 It's not creating attention or awareness. And worse, it's creating a level of confusion in the buyer's mind. Because we're we're looking for comparisons, we're looking at a way to make an educated decision compared to something else, and if we can't see why product A is miles ahead in our minds of Company B or product B, what often happens is rather than make a wrong decision, because we can't clearly differentiate the pros and cons between the two products, what we end up doing is nothing. We walk away. We don't buy anything, because we can't see a clear winner, which impacts company A and company B, if not the entire industry. And then they turn around and say, Oh, well, nobody's buying. Why? Why? Why is our industry lagging behind so many others? It's because we're just on autopilot, creating this, this nonsense, this generic sea of sameness in terms of communication, which we just don't seem to have a grip on the fundamental understanding of how people buy stuff anymore. We used to Yeah, up and up and up until probably the 90s. We used to know all this stuff. We used to know how get people going, how to stand out, how to create differentiated messaging, how to understand. Or what levers we could pull to better invoke an emotional reaction in the minds of the target buying audience that we're looking to attract. And then for some for, you know the if we plotted these things around two curves, you know, the point at which these curves would cross would probably be the adoption of technology,   Michael Hingson ** 45:29 whereas we came to reproduce the same thing in different ways, but you're still producing the same thing. The technology has limited our imagination, and we don't use re imaginations the way we used to.   Gee Ranasinha ** 45:43 We we've we're using, we're using technology as a proxy for reach. And getting in front of 1000 eyeballs or a million eyeballs or 100 million eyeballs doesn't necessarily mean any of those eyeballs are fit in the ideal customer profile we're looking to attract. Right? More doesn't mean better, and what what we're doing is we're trying to use technology to to fill in the gaps, but technology doesn't understand stuff like human emotion, right, and buying drivers and contextual messaging, right? Because all of this stuff human behavior is totally contextual, right? I will, I will come up with a and I'm sure you're the same thing. You will have a particular point of view about something one day and the next, the very next day, or even the very next hour, you could have a totally different viewpoint on a particular topic, maybe because you've had more information, or just maybe for the for the hell of it, right? We know we are we are not logical, rational, pragmatic machines that always choose the best in inverted commas solution to our issue.   Michael Hingson ** 47:23 Do you think AI will help any of this?   Gee Ranasinha ** 47:29 I think AI will help in terms of the fact that it will show how little we know about human behavior, and so will force forward thinking, innovative marketers to understand the only thing that matters, which is what's going on between the ears of the people we're trying to attract. I think AI is already showing us what we don't know, not what we know,   Michael Hingson ** 48:04 right? And it's still going to be up to us to do something about that and use AI as a tool to help possibly create some of what needs to be done. But it still requires our thought processes ultimately, to make that happen,   Gee Ranasinha ** 48:23 AI can't create. All AI can do is remix what has already been in existence, right? Ai doesn't create what AI does. The thing is, we're using AI for the wrong stuff. AI is really good at a ton of things, and it sucks big time at a load of other things. But for some reason, we want to throw all our efforts in trying to make it better at the things it's not good at, rather than use it at the things that it's really, really good   Michael Hingson ** 49:04 at, such as,   Gee Ranasinha ** 49:08 such as interpreting large data sets, Creating models of financial models, marketing models, marketing matrix, matrices, spotting, spotting trends in data, large, huge, like huge models of data, which no human being could really, in reality, Make any head in the tail of finding underlying commonalities in in the data to be able to create from that, to be able to draw out real, useful insights on that data to create new. New messaging, innovative products, services that we haven't thought of before because we haven't been able to see the wood for the trees,   50:13 if you like, yeah, right   Gee Ranasinha ** 50:17 for that sort of stuff, for the grunt work, for the automation. You know, do this, then do this, and all of that sort of stuff, A, B, testing, programmatic stuff, all of that stuff, banner ads and, you know, modifying banner all of that stuff is just basic grunt work that nobody needs, needs to do, wants to do, right? Give it all to AI it. Most AI is doing it, most of it anyway. We just never called it AI. You know, we've been doing it for 25 years. We just called it software in those days, right? But it's the same. It's the same goddamn thing. Is what we were doing, right? Let it do all of that stuff, because it's far better. And let's focus on the stuff that it can't do. Let's find out about what levers we need to pull at an emotional level to create messaging that better resonates in the minds of our buyers. That's what we need to do. Ai can't do that stuff right.   Michael Hingson ** 51:16 Where I think AI is is helpful today, as opposed to just software in the past, is that it has been taught how better to interact with those who use it, to be able to take questions and do more with it, with them than it used to be able to do, but we still have to come up with the problems or the issues that we wanted to solve, and to do it right, we have to give it a fair amount of information which, which still means we've got to be deeply involved in the process.   Gee Ranasinha ** 51:53 I mean, where it's great. I mean, if we're looking at, you know, Text, type, work, right, right, or I, or ideas or possibilities, or actually understanding the wider consideration set of a particular problem is that the hardest thing is, when you're staring at a blank piece of paper, isn't it? Right? We don't need that's the hardest thing, right? So we don't need to stare at a blank sheet anymore with a flashing cursor, right? You know, we can engage in a pseudo conversation that we need to take into consideration that this conversation is taking place based upon previous, existing ideas. So the chance that we'll get something fresh and original is very, very small. And as you just mentioned, you know, the quality of the prompt is everything. Get the prompt wrong and without enough granularity, details, specificity, whatever else you get just a huge piece of crap, don't you? Right? So in other words, having a better understanding of how we as humans make decisions actually improves our prompting ability, right, right?   Michael Hingson ** 53:12 And I think AI, it is not creative, but I think that AI can spew is probably the wrong word, but AI can put out things that, if we think about it, will cause us to do the creating that we want, but it's still going to be assets involved in doing that.   Gee Ranasinha ** 53:35 The problem is, and what we're seeing, certainly in the last couple of months, maybe even longer, maybe I just haven't noticed. It is just we were, you know, there's this old saying, you know, just because you can doesn't mean you should, right? I just see an absolute tsunami of vacuous, generic nonsense being spouted out across all types of channels, digital and otherwise, but mainly digital, all of it AI generated. Sometimes it's images, sometimes it's videos, sometimes it's both, sometimes it's text, whatever. But we we're adding to the noise instead of adding to the signal. So the inevitable result of all of this is going to be numbness. We're going to becoming different to marketing of all sorts, the good stuff as well as the bad. You're going to be it's we're just gonna get numb. So it's going to make the attention stuff. That's why I've been banging on about attention all this time, right? It's gonna, it's, yeah, there's, see, there is a method to my madness here. So the the point is that creation and maintaining. Attention is going to be even harder than it would have been before. Yeah, and, and we, you know, we're getting to the point where, you know, you've got agentic AI, where you've got agents talking to other agents and going around in this feedback loop. But we're not, we're not, we're not creating any emotional engagement from a, from a from a buyer perspective, from a user perspective, yes, it all looks great. And as a, as an exercise in technology, it's fantastic. So wonderful, right? But how has it increased sales? That's what I want to know has has it reduced or altered the cost of acquiring a customer and maintaining that customer relationship, because that's where the rubber hits the road. That's all that matters. I don't care whether it's a technological masterpiece, right, but if it hasn't sold anything, and actual sales, I'm not talking about likes and comments and retweets and all of that crap, because that's vanity metrics. Is nonsense   Michael Hingson ** 56:11 signing a contract. It's, you know,   Gee Ranasinha ** 56:16 there needs to be as an exchange of money at some point in time. Yeah, right. Is that happening? And I contend that it's not. And I think there are loads of people, loads of business owners, who are throwing money at this in the vain hope they you know that basically they're playing the numbers. They just need one horse to come in, 100 to one to be able to justify what they've spent on all of this stuff, right? Yeah, but I think those odds are getting longer and longer as each month goes, yeah. Well, you I think there's going to be an inevitable backlash back to stuff that actually resonates with people at a human level, at an emotional level, a psychological level, it has to   Michael Hingson ** 57:08 you started your marketing company 17 and a half years ago, caxino. Where'd that name come from?   Gee Ranasinha ** 57:18 From nothing? Okay, it doesn't mean anything I needed. I needed to have something which number one, that the domain was available. Of course, I needed to have something which was short, something that didn't mean, you know, something incongruous in another language and and so after a lot of to ing and fro ing, there were two schools of thought. At the beginning, we didn't know whether to go with something abstract, like caxino or something which was, you know, based based upon the the butting up of two existing words you know, like you see, you know, so many times, you know, big red table, or, you know, whatever. So we did, we decided to go with something abstract, so that we weren't encumbered by language.   Michael Hingson ** 58:22 You practiced what you preach pretty much. You're different, yeah, but why don't you call it? You don't refer to it as a digital marketing agency. Why is that?   Gee Ranasinha ** 58:34 No, I don't see us as a digital marketing agency, because digital marketing is not all we do. And not only that, I think, Well, I think there's, there's a number of reasons. Number one, I think we're using the word digital is, is a curveball. Firstly, because everything that we do is digital, right? Everything is already digital. Print is digital, TV is digital, billboards are digital. So saying digital is like saying electrical, electrical marketing agency, it makes as much sense to be honest. So that's number one. But I think the bigger issue is that by categorizing a marketing agency as being a digital marketing agency does a disservice to its work and indeed its outlook, because The object is not to be digital in your marketing, it's to do marketing in a digital world, which are two very different positions, okay? Because digital, the way that we're talking about it, is not a attributive noun, and it's certainly not an adjective. You. In the context that we're talking about it, digital is a channel. It's simply one way of getting in front of our audience. But it's not the only way of getting in front of our audience. Okay? So, yeah, along with many other reputable agencies, we happen to use the most appropriate channel of communication that makes sense to address a particular target audience group, and that's it. Okay, if that's digital, great. If that's walking down the street with an A frame with something written on the front of it, that's also great, okay, but it's, it's, it's not about it's not about the channel. It's about you being in the places where our target target audience group expects us to be. And so that's why I don't think of us as a digital marketing agency, because digital is only part of what we do, right? And we do many other things. And also, I think it puts it, it puts blinkers on things right? Because if you know, supposing, supposing you go to a Facebook marketing agency, of which there are many. Now, if you go to a Facebook marketing agency and you say, Okay, I want to do some ads. Where should I advertise? What are they going to tell you? Right, maybe Facebook, right? So there's, there's a thing called Maslow's hammer. Okay, in Maslow, as in the hierarchy, the Hierarchy of Needs Maslow. Okay to say, Maslow. He came up with this idea of Maslow's hammer. It's also known as the law of the instrument. And basically what it means, we can distill it down, is, if all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail, okay? And what that means is, you're looking to solve any problem that comes along by the tools that you have in your toolbox, regardless of whether that's the best way of moving forward, which I think is a very short term and myopic view. So that's why we we don't like to think of ourselves as the marketing agency, because there are many other there are many ways of solving a particular problem, and it doesn't necessarily have to be   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:50 digital,   Gee Ranasinha ** 1:02:51 digital or promotional or, you know, it's, it's like, you know, are we a video marketing agency? No. Does that mean we don't do video, not at all. Of course, we do it, right? We're not an AI marketing agency, right? In the same way, okay, when we're not a we're not a YouTube marketing agency,   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:11 you're a marketing agency. We're a marketing agency, right? What are some of the biggest mistakes that small businesses make when it comes to marketing?   Gee Ranasinha ** 1:03:21 I think the single biggest mistake, and I speak to business owners pretty much on a daily basis, right? I think the single biggest issue that comes up again and again and again is something which I call self diagnosis, which is the business owner, approaches the marketing agency, or even digital marketing agency, approaches the marketing agency, and says, You know what, I need you to do this for me. Whatever that this is, okay. So you know, maybe it's some digital ads, maybe it's some videos, maybe it's a website, maybe it's a whatever. It doesn't matter what it is, but basically, the business owner is coming to us, coming to the marketing agency, dictating what the tactic is to be, which presumes a number of things, not least, that they think they have come to the conclusion that this particular tactic is going to solve their marketing problem based upon usually waving a wet finger in the air, yeah, or they've seen a YouTube video or something, okay, it's not based on any marketing knowledge experience or education, because, with the greatest respect, these people do not have any marketing knowledge experience. Into education, right? And why would they? Because they're running a business, right? They don't, you know, they it doesn't mean that they've had to do this marketing stuff. So they're, they're, they're presuming that a particular tactic is going to solve a business problem, a marketing tactic is going to solve a business problem. And so what what happens is the the particular tactic is is executed. Nothing changes revenue wise. And so the business owner says, well, that marketing agency was crap. Let's go to another marketing agency and ask them to do something else. So it's playing pin the tail on the donkey. Really, just trying stuff and hoping so. The point is that. The point is that if you're going to pay somebody who does this for a living, the idea that you know more than they do is already setting the relationship on a uneven kill, right? Yeah, you know, if I, if I go, if I go and see my doctor, and I say, and I wake up in the morning and I've got a pain in my chest, and I thinking, oh my goodness, I go and see the doctor, right? So on the way to the doctor's office, I do the worst thing possible, which is go on the internet and say, Okay, what does pain in my chest mean? Right? And I go into the doctor's office, and I sit down and I say, Okay, I've got a pain in my chest, doctor, that means I've got angina. Can you give me some heart medication, please? What's the doctor gonna tell you? Doctor's gonna tell you, shut the hell up. Yeah, I'm the doctor in the office. I'm the actually, where's, Where's, where's your medical degree doesn't exist, does it? No, and   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:00 just because you have a broken rib, we're not going to talk about that. Are we right?   Gee Ranasinha ** 1:07:04 So, What? What? So what's the doctor going to do? The doctor is going to ask you a bunch of questions, right? What did you do the last couple of days? Right? What did you eat? Did you go to the gym and over exert yourself? What's your history? Do you is there a history of heart disease in the family, you know, maybe there's is going to he or she is going to take some blood, maybe they're going to run a few other sort of tests. They're going to do a diagnosis, and at the end of this diagnosis, the doctor is going to come back to you and say, You know what? So, based upon all the questions that you've kindly answered, and based upon the blood work and all these other tests and scans we've done, it turns out that the the pain in your chest is nothing to do with angina. The reason you got a pain in the chest is because you had some spicy food last night. So you don't have you don't have Anjali, you have gas. Yeah, right, right, so I prescribe you a couple of packs of Tums. Yeah, sorted, right. And that's the point. The point is the doctor knows what he or she is doing, and you have to have confidence in that particular medical practitioner to diagnose the issue and prescribe a solution to that issue, right? Your job is not to say what you think is wrong with you at this stage of the conversation. Your job is to tell me where it hurts. That's it right now, I'll come back to you with a list of things which I think we need to do to move forward. Now you can go and get a second opinion, just like at a doctor's office. You may think I'm full of crap, which is absolutely your prerogative. Or you may say, I know better than you. I'm going to do my own thing, which, again, it's your time Absolutely. But if it all goes to crap, you can't turn around and say, well, if only this person had said this, or, you know, If only, if only, if only, and play the victim, because that's also just not going to wash. And I see this time and time and time again. You know, we've tried, well, we've tried a number of different agencies, and none of them have been able to help us. And then you sort of dig a bit deeper, and it's because they're never allowed to do what they're supposed to do, because they've always been second guessed. Yeah, that is probably the single biggest issue that I see coming up again and again and again with small business in market now, if and if it's a question of not having faith in that. Uh, agency, then you shouldn't have been employed. You shouldn't have that agency in the first place.   Michael Hingson ** 1:10:05 Get a second opinion.   Gee Ranasinha ** 1:10:07 You know, not all, not all agencies are great, just like not all plumbers are great. Not all mechanics are great. Same thing, right? It takes time to find the good ones, right? Um, but just because you found a bad one, because I don't know they were cheap, or they were local, or they were whatever, you know, whatever, whatever criteria you tend to use to base your decision upon, right? You can't, you can't criticize what they did if you didn't allow them to do what they were actually being paid to do.   Michael Hingson ** 1:10:47 Well, speaking of that, if people want to reach out to you, how do they do that?   Gee Ranasinha ** 1:10:53 Best way to get hold of me. Gee is on LinkedIn. I spend most of my time on LinkedIn. I post twice a week. I post videos about some of the sorts of things that we've been talking about today, and they're only sort of 60 seconds long, 90 seconds long. It's not sort of taking up anybody's time very much. You can find me there. Would you believe, Mike, there is only 1g runner scene on LinkedIn. Can you imagine fortuitous? How fortuitous is   Michael Hingson ** 1:11:27 that? Yeah, really, and G is spelled G, E, and how do you spell your last name?   Gee Ranasinha ** 1:11:33 You could eat. I'm sure all of this still, the stuff will be put in. It will, but I just figured it we could. But yeah. G, renasina, you can find me there. Otherwise, obviously you can find us on Kexino, k, e, X, I, N, o.com, which is the website, and there's plenty of information there textual information, there are videos, there are articles, there are all sorts of bits and pieces that you can find more about us   Michael Hingson ** 1:12:04 there. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful, and I really appreciate you taking more than an hour to chat with us today. And I hope this was fun, and I hope that people will appreciate it and will reach out to you and value what we've discussed. I think it's been great love to hear from all of you out there. Please feel free to email me. Michael H, i@accessibe.com so that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and love to hear from you wherever you're listening. Please give us a five star rating. We value those ratings very highly, and we'd love to to to hear and see you rate us and get your thoughts. If you know of anyone else who might be a good guest for unstoppable mindset. Gu as well, we'd sure appreciate your referring them to us. Introduce us. We're always looking for more people to to chat with, so please do that and again, gee, I just want to thank you one more time for being here. This has been great,   Gee Ranasinha ** 1:13:02 absolute pleasure, delighted to be invited.   Michael Hingson ** 1:13:10 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

We kicked off the program with four news stories and different guests on the stories we think you need to know about!As fall officially begins, the American Red Cross urges people to mark the new season with a lifesaving blood or platelet donation to help keep the blood supply strong. Guest: Jeff Hall – with Red Cross of Massachusetts Measuring the Man: The Writings of Frederick Douglass on Abraham Lincoln. This book touches on the relationship between Douglass and Lincoln. Guest: Jonathan White – co-author of this book & professor of American Studies at Christopher Newport University and vice chair of The Lincoln Forum. & Author of over 20 books. Memorial set for prosecutor Assist. AG Paul McLaughlin who was gunned down by a gang member in 1995. Guest: Judge Jeffrey Locke The Massachusetts State Lottery's new “Ghostbusters™” instant ticket game & more that's new with the state lottery. Guest: Mark William Bracken - Executive Director of the MA Lottery

Full transcript⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠Watch this interview on YouTube⁠⁠⁠ — “Sometimes when you get to a fork in the road and you have to decide, am I going to stay in this job or take this new job? … It can feel like the weight of the world on your shoulders to make that decision,” says Noha Abdalla, CMO of Choice Hotels. “[But] each path is going to lead you somewhere else and you're going to learn something new. And so take the burden off a little bit or the weight of that decision off and pick something and learn from it.” That philosophy has carried Noha from consulting to the American Red Cross, from Animal Planet to Hilton, and now to leading marketing across 22 brands and millions of room nights at Choice. Along the way, she's seen firsthand how marketing builds trust, not just bookings, and how AI is transforming the creative process. Today on Building Better CMOs, Noha talks with MMA Global CEO Greg Stuart about the challenges of hospitality marketing, the decision to bring in Keegan-Michael Key as brand ambassador, and her team's experiments with agentic AI to personalize at scale. They also discuss the role of mentorship, lessons from running a franchise business, and why marketers must champion emotional connection and trust at every step of the customer journey. This episode was produced and edited by Eric Johnson from ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LightningPod.fm⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow Building Better CMOs in your podcast app⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Subscribe on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Rate & review the podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Links: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Noha's LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Greg's LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠

In this episode of Business Ninjas, host Andrew Lippman sits down with Stu Seltzer, President of Seltzer Licensing Group. Stu shares his journey from working at Yves Saint Laurent and Warner Brothers to founding his own licensing agency more than 25 years ago. They dive into how brand licensing helps companies—from global CPGs to nonprofits and entertainment brands—unlock growth through partnerships, collaborations, and royalties. Stu also talks about his new book, Brand Licensing for Dummies, and what it means to be inducted into the Licensing International Hall of Fame.

I'm excited to welcome back my friend, writer, and podcaster Kim Lengling for her second appearance on Unstoppable Mindset. Kim's journey is a powerful example of how unexpected changes can lead to new beginnings filled with purpose, faith, and hope.   In our conversation, Kim shares how losing her corporate job in 2020 opened the door to writing, podcasting, and a deeper exploration of the things that bring her joy. Together, we talk about the importance of balance, kindness, and being present—whether that's through connecting with nature, learning from animals, or practicing gratitude even during life's hardest moments.   What We Talked About Kim's Writing Journey – From her first anthology contribution to full-time writing and podcasting, and how storytelling became both a calling and a source of healing. Work-Life Balance – Why flexibility, happiness, and cultural shifts matter in how we work and live. Nature & Animals as Teachers – Lessons in patience, empathy, and presence, from walks in the woods to stories about guide dogs and even a moth's transformation. Faith & Resilience – How Kim found faith in her 30s, and how prayer, stillness, and gratitude help her manage PTSD and life's challenges. Nuggets of Hope Project – Kim's book and community initiative built around small acts of kindness, and how those acts ripple outward in powerful ways. This episode is full of heart, gentle wisdom, and encouragement. Whether you're navigating change, seeking more balance, or simply needing a reminder of the beauty in kindness, Kim's words are sure to resonate.     About the Guest:   As a multi-published author, Kim shares her love of nature and animals, her life with PTSD, and her mission to toss out Nuggets of Hope through her writing and podcast.   Kim is the lead author and coordinator of six anthologies: The When Grace Found Me Series (three books), When Hope Found Me, Paw Prints on the Couch, and Paw Prints on the Kitchen Floor. Her newest book, Nuggets of Hope, was released on November 15, 2024.   In addition to writing, she hosts the podcast Let Fear Bounce, which spotlights people who have faced and overcome personal fear(s) to make a difference in their slice of the world through writing, coaching, film production, philanthropy, teaching, founding non-profits, public speaking, or simply being an amazing human being.   You can regularly find Kim drinking coffee, reading, and talking with the critters in the woods while taking long walks with her dog, Dexter. Visit her website, www.kimlenglingauthor.com, to keep up with everything happening in her realm.   Ways to connect with Kay:     Website:                                www.kimlenglingauthor.com Amazon:                               https://www.amazon.com/author/kimlengling   Let Fear Bounce                 @Letfearbounce Apple:                                   https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/let-fear-bounce/id1541906455   Facebook:                            https://www.facebook.com/letfearbouncepodcast   LinkedIn:                              https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimberlylengling/   Instagram:                            https://www.instagram.com/lenglingauthor/   Twitter:                                  https://www.tiktok.com/@klengling?lang=en   TikTok:                                 ** https://www.tiktok.com/@klengling?lang=en     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Hi everyone, and here we are once again with another episode of unstoppable mindset. And I'd like to welcome you all to another episode from wherever you may be. And we have a guest who was on once before, Kim lemring, and Kim is here to continue our discussions. One of the things that I ask people to do when they're going to come going to come on this podcast is to send me questions they want to talk about. And so when we decided that Kim was going to come on again, I asked her to send me more questions. So I don't know how much agony she had to go through to figure that out, but I'll bet she figured it out pretty well, since she's a published author with a lot of books to her credit, so we'll and we'll talk about some of those as well. So again, Kim, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here again.   Kim Lengling ** 02:09 Well, thanks for having me back. I've been looking forward to this.   Michael Hingson ** 02:13 I think it was episode 327, that you were in originally. So anyway, we're, we're glad you're here, and I think it will be a lot of fun to kind of talk about things. Again, you're in Pennsylvania, which is kind of cool. You share a love of nature and animals, and I guess you write about those things. Tell us a little bit about, kind of in general, what you write about, and how you got started in doing   Kim Lengling ** 02:39 that. Yeah, I got started writing. I wasn't I never thought to be a writer that wasn't a dream of mine or anything that was even on the back burner. I was approached years ago by a woman that I had met in a business networking group, and she was putting together an anthology, and asked me if I would like to contribute a chapter. And the name of the book was called Inspire. And it's, you know about inspiring stories about people that have overcome something, whether it's trauma or what have you. And I had never shared my story before, and I had, I declined. I politely declined. At first, she, you know, kind of kept at me. She was persistent, but in a gentle, loving way, and said, Kim, you shared your story with me. And I really think it's something that should be shared. And so I eventually did share that, and that was a an eye opener for me, on on actually writing and writing something that's so personal and had such an impact. And from that point forward, I kind of kind of got bit by the writing bug. I'm thinking, You know what? I had such positive feedback from the story as well. And I thought, okay, maybe, maybe this is something I should look into a little bit more. I was working full time and all of that. So I was just writing, you know, in my off timer in late in the evenings when I couldn't sleep or something like that. But that's kind of how it started.   Michael Hingson ** 04:09 What were you working on originally, before you started writing, what were you doing?   Kim Lengling ** 04:13 I was sales and sales and marketing manager. That's, that's my background in the corporate world. Ah, yeah. Did that for, oh, close to 25 years.   Michael Hingson ** 04:24 Wow, yeah, then you, then you decided to go off and spin and do other things.   Kim Lengling ** 04:30 Well, the world changed. It was 2020   Michael Hingson ** 04:34 Oh, the world did change. Yeah, yes, the world   Kim Lengling ** 04:37 changed. And I lost my job, along with millions and millions of others, because so many doors were closing, and many of them closed for good, when the world changed at that time. And I thought, you know, at the season I'm at in life, in other words, the age I decided I don't want to go back in the corporate world. I'm not happy there anymore. I don't feel fulfilled in any way. And all of the doors are shut right now. Everyone's stuck at home. We can't do anything. I'm gonna try and make something happen. And, you know, figure out, figure out what it is I can do. So I asked myself three questions, what are you good at? What do you like doing? And what are you having a passion for? And I thought, Well, okay, I actually like writing. I'm getting much better at it from when I started years ago, and I love meeting and talking to new people and learning new things. So I took that and created a podcast and started writing books.   Michael Hingson ** 05:36 There you go. You know, it's interesting, when September 11 occurred. The main mantra I heard from so many people is, or was, at the time, we got to get back to normal. And my reaction was always kind of negative. And it took me a while to realize why I was never happy hearing that, and the reason I wasn't, rightfully so, by the way, was normal would never be the same again. And so many people kept saying, We got to get back to normal, but normal would never be the same again. And the other thing that hopefully people are a little bit more now discovering is that normal is a moving target anyway. I mean, look at the pandemic, and getting back to normal is not going to be productive from that either. The pandemic happened. Some companies want you to just come back to work full time, which flies in the face of the whole concept that maybe there is relevance in letting people at least partially work at home, because they're happier and they will be just as productive, if not more, so if you really go back to the whole concept of having happy employees, but you know, we're still not there   Kim Lengling ** 06:56 yet. No, I agree. Yes, yes. And prior to I was really unhappy where I was at and it felt like, and I'm, I am sure that there are many, many people out there that feel the same, or have felt the same, that you're just on this, you're on this hamster wheel, and it just seems you're more and more is expected. Now, I'm a hard worker. Always have been, so I'm not, I would never stop the issue, right? Yeah, that's not the issue, but it's, you know, quality of life. Am I living to work or I'm working to live? Mm, hmm, you know? And it gets to the point where sometimes that's where I for me personally, that's why I said, you know, I don't want to go back in the corporate world. I was so unhappy, and it was actually becoming the the atmosphere I was in was making me unhealthy, and that's not good long term either. And I'm thinking, I want to be able to enjoy retirement if I ever get there, you know, Lord willing, I want to be able to enjoy retirement in a healthy manner, not be sick and you know. So it was a big decision, and it was kind of scary. That's why they named my podcast. Let fear bounce. There was, there was some fear in there, but I thought, you know, if not now when you know when, when gonna be feeling okay, Kim, you know. I think that's a question we all have to ask. Now, I know everybody's circumstance is so different. I know that. And please don't think you know anyone listening that I'm putting any, I'm making light of any situation that someone's in. But for me, I had reached that point where it's like, I'm just gonna do it, I'm just gonna do it period. And it was bumpy. It was very bumpy. And actually, I will be very honest, it was very hard the first two years. I'll bet there were times I'm like, am I gonna be able to make the mortgage?   Michael Hingson ** 08:46 You know, yeah, and that's a fair question, but at the same time, you made a decision that I'm sure helped your health a lot, and the more you came to grips with all of it, probably the better things became for you.   Kim Lengling ** 09:06 Yes, you're absolutely right. And once I, you know, I had to, I had to let those fears bounce, you know, like you said, I made that decision, and I was getting healthier, and I was feeling much better mentally as well as physically, and that's huge. Yeah, you know, you life is not meant to be a grind.   Michael Hingson ** 09:29 Well, it's not supposed to be. You're right. How do we get the corporate world to recognize that and deal with it? And I hope that the pandemic would would help, and it has in some quarters, but in some quarters it certainly has not. How do we get people to recognize that there's a lot to be said for giving people more freedom on the job, letting people spend some time working from home, and the reality is they'll. Probably be more productive. I spoke with someone a few months ago on the podcast about it was in he was in Europe the work week, and what he said that there was that there's a big difference between five, eight hour days and 410, hour days or four eight hour days, depending on what different companies did, but for 10 hour days, you had an extra day that you didn't have to work and that you worked at home. And surveys have shown productivity wise people do at least as well with the 410, hour days or four day work week than they do with a five day work week.   Kim Lengling ** 10:44 I've my ex husband, who is from Germany, and they in Germany anyway, and I think a lot of Europe, they have much more time off than Americans do. So you know, when he moved here, he was, like, two weeks off a year. What do you mean? Two weeks that is nothing. Because they get they get six, yeah, you know, and they have much more sick time and much more personal time they're able to take. And a lot of the the companies, at least over there, from what I know from him, the larger companies, they recognize that that, you know, a happy, healthy employee is going to be a loyal employee, yep. And you know, working your folks into the ground, they're going to burn out and leave you sooner. And I, you know, I don't know, Michael, you have to tell me what you think, or what you've run into when you talk to folks. Do some larger companies. And I don't know, because I'm not in the corporate world anymore, but anymore, but do some larger companies in larger cities, because I'm in a rural area, they have employees. But then, you know, there's that's just work. Work works so much over time they burn out, and then they hire younger and younger people for less and less money until they, in turn, burn out. It seems like it's an endless cycle, from what I've heard from a few folks that I've talked to, you heard that as well.   Michael Hingson ** 12:04 Well, I've heard that. And in fact, I spoke with someone yesterday, and we were talking about the whole concept of how investors and CEOs and so on work to a to a degree. And one of the bottom lines is the only thing that we have to do as a company is make our investors happy and make a profit for them. That's just not true, and I don't know what it's going to take for people to learn there really is more to our life, and there is so much more to be gained by having employees who are a lot more comfortable and a lot more happy. So I don't know it is a it is a very frustrating thing. And the reality is that if you have happy employees, then when there's a need, they will step up and do more than you will probably have ever thought they would do. Agreed.   Kim Lengling ** 13:05 Yes, I agree. Yeah, my daughter works for a company that she she works from home one day a week. But they're also very flexible. So if something's wrong or like her daughter's sick or something like that, they will let her work from home on days like that, as long as she has her time in, and she will often go above and beyond, like you just mentioned, because she's given that opportunity and despair, yeah, and I think it makes a huge difference in the work environment. And then also, you know, your mental view of your job, it doesn't feel like it's a grind. My daughter, she loves her job. Loves it. For me, it would be incredibly high stress, but the way they've set it up, where she works, it's, yes, she has stressful days, but it's not sustained stress every single day. You know? What does she do? She does the finance and the HR for the parent company that oversees like four to five different companies.   Michael Hingson ** 14:08 So there can be stress, there can be   Kim Lengling ** 14:13 Yeah, but you know, she's, I often tease her. I'm like, you know, finance, soon as you say numbers, just my brain turns off, yeah, but it's such a different thing, a different atmosphere from, like, work experiences that I've had. So her bosses are younger, so it's like, I'm hoping that maybe it's, maybe it's a different generation that's going to take to have that become the norm, you know. And you had said normal, you know. People said, we have to get back to normal. I don't, you know what is normal. I don't even such a thing as normal, just what you're used to, not normal, you know, right?   Michael Hingson ** 14:52 Well, that's the point. And yeah, and what is normal for me is not necessarily normal for you. But the bottom line is, you. That when something like September 11 happens or the pandemic happens, the fact of the matter is, conditions will never go right back to the way they were before, and shouldn't, because in theory, at least hopefully we learn from what happened. So with the pandemic, there was so much that all of us had the opportunity to learn about how to interact with each other, how to work with companies, and for those who did it, allow people to work at home part of the time, and I can understand and value going into an office to work, but you shouldn't have to do that five days a week and just have that be a grind. That's not what a job should really be about.   Kim Lengling ** 15:48 I agree. Now, unfortunately, just get many, many, many more people to agree with us.   Michael Hingson ** 15:53 They're probably a lot of workers who agree.   Kim Lengling ** 15:57 But yes, you know, I was, I don't know, have you ever listened to the group Alabama? I just love them. They're one of my favorite groups. And the other day, I was driving along, running errands, and the Alabama song, 40 hour week came on, and it's the whole song is about, you know, Pittsburgh steel mill worker. They list, you know, that truck driver, they list all of the different workers that keep America moving. And I just love that song. And I was listening that song, I thought, I thought of you actually thinking of this upcoming conversation. But I love that. So I think folks go listen to that Alabama song, 40 hour week. It's a really good it's a really good song. And if you're from the United States, it just kind of really slams home, like what it should be and what we should be thankful for.   Michael Hingson ** 16:52 I think that it's absolutely appropriate for companies to want you somehow to put in a certain amount of time, and that they have goals that that need to be achieved, but you want to have some flexibility in exactly how you deal with it, so long as you get the work done, and if you're really comfortable in doing it, probably more than they ever thought possible, Right?   Kim Lengling ** 17:20 Yeah, that's what you're hired for a 40 hour week job, and then they say they expect 65 to 70 from you, yeah, and I've been in those jobs that's that's tough.   Michael Hingson ** 17:33 The other side of it is the person who gets hired for a 40 hour a week job, but they're given more flexibility, they're given more freedom, and they put in 65 hours. And it shocks the heck out of some bosses. Well, you're putting all this time in, but the job is wonderful. I love   Kim Lengling ** 17:50 it, right? Yes,   Michael Hingson ** 17:53 yeah. So it's, it is a, it's an interesting discussion that to have here, but it is also something that we're all going to be dealing with. And I think you're right. It's going to take younger generations to come in and hopefully have learned from the pandemic, and we'll see, because now we have the students who experienced it in high school, and they're going into college, and I'm sure that they're in part, going to demand, and probably in a college environment, they get the ability to be a little bit more flexible in how they learn, because there's more lectures online, there are more things online, so they don't necessarily sit all the time in a classroom. But I think that there's also value in being in an office or being in a classroom at least part of the time.   Kim Lengling ** 18:42 Oh, I agree. I agree, yeah. And I wouldn't ever expect to not be in an office. I mean, if that's if that's where, if it was a local company to me, or something like that, there's a lot of online jobs that you know are full time remote. But because being I think, for me, anyway, I do enjoy, I did enjoy part of the office atmosphere, because you're meeting people. And my job, I was meeting new people almost every day in sales, marketing. So that part, you know, that I really enjoyed, you know, and being out on the road and going to different companies and speaking the other companies and things like that. So that part I enjoyed. So you know that part I would never want to not do. Should I ever be in corporate America again? But yeah, I know it's interesting, interesting.   Michael Hingson ** 19:31 I know that when I started in sales and so on, it was mostly all by phone, and I was selling high tech, very sophisticated, innovative products. But then it got to the point where we were selling a lot to Wall Street, and Wall Street insists that manufacturers actually have a presence in the city. I'm not sure if it's as much that way anymore, but probably it is, because Wall Street people. People tend to get what they want. But the bottom line is that then I moved to the East Coast, and so then I started doing a lot more traveling to visit customers, and I see the value of that as well. It was easy for me on the phone, because I don't have to sit there and look at people anyway.   Michael Hingson ** 20:19 So meeting with some of those people was was a lot of fun, and I enjoyed doing it when we actually had a chance to start meeting. So there's value in that too. Yeah, I agree. So one of the things that you describe yourself as is a lover of all things nature and animals and coffee, how does all that come together in your life? Because, personally, I do tea more than coffee, but that's okay.   Kim Lengling ** 20:51 I'll forgive you for being a tea drinker.   Michael Hingson ** 20:55 Get some spam. You know,   Kim Lengling ** 21:00 that's nature coffee, animals that those are my that's that's kind of like my happy place. That's where I breathe, that's where I am most at ease, outside walking my dog first thing in the morning, that first cup of coffee sitting on the back porch listening to the birds as they wake up. You know, they're heralding a new day, and they're welcoming you to it, and as I sip my coffee and my dog sniffing around the backyard after all the critters that probably came through the night before, you know that's just, that's my happy place right there. So a lot of my thoughts and ideas come on my walks. And you know, yesterday this, I mean, nature is just amazing for me, and it's just magical. And there was this really large cocoon hanging from two small branches for weeks, and to go out into the field with my dog. I would pass it every day. It was always, it's like, right at my eye level. So I would always, you know, tilt my head so I didn't hit it right. And I was often wondering, what is in that? What is going to come out? Yesterday, I was going to take my dog for a walk in the evening, because it's been so amazingly hot here, you have to wait until almost 730 at night to do anything. I'm walking by, and there's the most beautiful moth, like the size of my hand, hanging from that cocoon that had just come. And I thought I have been watching this for weeks, and now look at the magic of nature. It's the most beautiful thing. And I just stood there. I took pictures of it, and I just stood there in awe and wonder over it. And I thought, you know, as I was walking away, and I kept looking back, because it had just come out. It was just starting to flutter its wings a little bit, to air out. And I had never seen anything like that so soon after something, you know. And it was so big size of my hand. And my thought was, you know, okay, wow. Look at the magic of nature right there. And these things that I notice, and I often wonder how much people miss because they're so busy all the time, right, right, you know. And to me, that was just such a big reminder of, there is a lot of beauty in the world. There truly is. It might not seem like it, but there's a lot. There is a lot, and that that was a big reminder to me yesterday, and that's part of why I just that's why that's in my bio nature dogs, animals and   Michael Hingson ** 23:43 coffee. So what kind of dog is Dexter?   Kim Lengling ** 23:47 Dexter? I got him from a local humane society. So he's a rescue. He is a Belgian malnois Mastiff mix with just a smidge of Husky. Wow. Yeah. He's a very unique dog, very unique looking dog. He has a fawn body, a black head, white feet, and one blue eye and one brown eye.   Michael Hingson ** 24:12 We had a cat that and her name was Kelly. Actually it was Kelly Alico, but Kelly short and she had, we are of the opinion that she was two cats that were glued together because one side was white and the other side was and I don't remember whether it was orange or what, but literally, the line went right down her back and under her tummy. Oh, geez. There's a wonderful kitty.   Kim Lengling ** 24:45 I love the unique ones well.   Michael Hingson ** 24:47 And then we had her sister also, who is named smudge, because smudge was run to the litter and a little gray smudge, just a smudge, just a smudge. Cutie pie. Awesome. Now you're talking about nature. We moved to New Jersey in 1996 and my wife Karen, one day, I came home in what had to be, I guess, the end of March, the beginning of April. And she said, I finally really understand what spring is about. I never thought about it. Thought about it much in California, but she said, this morning I looked out and all the blossoms were on the trees, and when I looked out this afternoon, they had all opened to flowers. They sprung Yes, which I thought was very interesting. I've always remembered that Yeah. What a what a cool way to   Kim Lengling ** 25:36 Yeah, yeah, yes. She was right.   Michael Hingson ** 25:41 She was,   Kim Lengling ** 25:44 he was, yeah. And that's, you know, that's I'm I might complain more and more for the older I get about winters of where I'm at, because we experience all four seasons where Ivania, but there is so much beauty in each season, yeah? And for me, that's, it's just such a joy to experience all of them. You know, it might be super cold in the winter, but there's beauty in that, in that really still cold silence and the snow sparkling as the sun hits it, you know, it's just, I mean, there's just, just so many things. And to me, that's, you know, it's almost, it's almost spiritual, those those moments that that you can grasp on to, and for me, I grasp on to them, and then I pull them out later on days that I need them. They're my little nuggets of hope that are put before me that I'm to pull out every once in a while, if I'm having a tough day.   Michael Hingson ** 26:41 I tend to disagree with most people you know who say things like, well, out in California, you don't have four seasons. We do. It isn't necessarily as dramatic, perhaps, but in the winter, it is very cold, and there's, of course, a lot of snow, and the flowers do come out in the spring. They don't spring like they do in the east, perhaps, and it's a lot more gradual. But I really think there are four seasons, at least, from my experience, there are, maybe, from a visual standpoint, it isn't there so   Kim Lengling ** 27:11 much. But I think that's, I think that's what I mean when I say that before, no, I know, I know, yeah, because they're so definitive,   Michael Hingson ** 27:20 they're much more definitive. And I have and I buy that now, now in a place like Hawaii, perhaps, where there isn't snow and it doesn't get as cold in the winter, but even so, seasons are are definable, and so what winter is is still different than what spring and summer in autumn are, fall is and it's just a matter of how you perceive it. But guess the way it goes, everybody's got little bit different observations,   Kim Lengling ** 27:49 what you're used to and where you live. Yeah, because I've never lived in California, I've not experienced those seasons.   Michael Hingson ** 27:59 So yeah, I think, I think it's a it's a fun place to live. I enjoy it not being as cold, although in the winter out here we can get down to 10 degrees or colder, we don't get snow. I'm in a valley, so we don't tend to get the snow that the ski resorts around us get. So as I love to tell people, they hog the snow at the ski resorts, but they're perfectly willing to share their cold air with us. So, you know,   Kim Lengling ** 28:24 yeah, 10 degrees is cold. That's chilly.   Michael Hingson ** 28:28 Yeah, this get pretty cold, but that's okay. I have a house that is well insulated, so it stays pretty warm in the winter, and it's easy to keep it, keep it hot. And in the summer it is, it is pretty cool. It stays pretty cool. In the house. It'll get up if I don't turn the air conditioning on at all, it'll get up to 76 or 77 degrees by the evening time, but starting to feel a little warm, but it's okay. I'll still take the warmer air all year round than we typically find in the East. And I don't, and I don't mind the lack of snow, not because of the snow, but because when it starts to melt and then the nighttime comes, it turns to ice. It's the ice. It's a frustration   Kim Lengling ** 29:17 that's pretty scary sometimes, especially here black ice, yeah, in the wintertime, and the traveling, traveling in winter, that's, I'm kind of thankful that I no longer have to go back and forth to work each day, because, you know, you have those winter days where it's still dark in the morning. It's dark when you leave for work, it's dark when you come home and yes, no. And you know, three feet of snow and you have to come home and shovel. It's a lot. It's a lot.   Michael Hingson ** 29:45 So, you know, the the thing is that I think we all live in different environments and so on, but I also know that if I have to live somewhere else, I can do it. I prefer to stay where I am. I'm fighting where I am, and I. Um, so I will do that as much as possible, but I also understand that sometimes things change and you you deal with it.   Kim Lengling ** 30:07 That's right. I like how you just said, you know you could live a different you like knowing that if you had to live a different place, that you could do it, yeah, that's   Michael Hingson ** 30:17 the big issue, yeah. Well, yeah, for you, you've you've said that you've had experiences dealing with PTSD. How has that shaped your mission to offer? I know this goes back to a book titled nuggets of hope, but for people and the other things that you're able to share because of your PTSD experience,   Kim Lengling ** 30:40 yeah, I found over the years that and all the folks that I've met that have been through some sort of trauma that has left them with, you know, post traumatic stress, that, for myself and I've witnessed it in others, makes you much more empathetic and compassionate to people. Yeah, and for me, it seems, the older I get, the more empathy I have, and because I can relate to or I recognize in others, symptoms or things that they're going through, I can relate to, and maybe, maybe I can offer a little nugget of hope and say, hey, you know I've been there too. I've been in those same shoes, and oh my gosh, it is so hard. And, oh, you're right. You're right. Sometimes it's even hard to breathe. Yep, you're right. Sometimes it stops you in your tracks. Yes, you're right. Sometimes you have three days of no sleep, but you can get through it. That's right, you know? And I, someone actually was my counselor told me a few years ago, said Kim and I was having a bad day. I mean, it was, it was tough. It was one of those days where anxiety was just ruling the day, and it was, it was hard to breathe that day. And she said, Kim, when's the last time you looked in the mirror like truly looked at yourself in the mirror? And I said, I don't do that. She goes, why? And I said, because I don't want to see the mess that I am. And she said, Why? Why go negative? Why do you look at yourself as a mess when you should be looking in that mirror and saying, Wow, Kim, look at you. You have a 100% success rate for getting through the tough stuff. So don't look at yourself as a mess. You look at yourself as a success because you're still standing and you're able to look in the mirror and tell yourself that, and however that is for someone you know, maybe it's not looking in the mirror. Maybe I don't know what that would be for someone you know, whatever it is, remind yourself you're still standing. You're still here. It's another day. It's a brand new day. So that means you have a 100% success rate for getting through the tough stuff. And when she said that, that that flicks a switch in my mind, and I've not forgotten it, and I've shared it with so many other people that have been in tough spots, and then they have told me later, you know, I shared that with someone when they were having a tough day, so I was like, you know, look at all these little nuggets of hope that we can toss out to people. And you might be a nugget of hope and not even realize it like your show, your show, Michael, could be nuggets of hope for 1000s of people that listen to it way in the future. So, I mean, you know, how amazing to think of it that way, that we can in our own way, just as that one person you know, someone says, you know, well, you're just one person. You can't change the world. No, you're right. I can't, but I could change one person's world. I can. I can be a positive nugget of hope in my own small slice of the world. And if we can do that, why wouldn't we?   Michael Hingson ** 33:55 Geez, and you never know what change that might bring to the whole world, which is what you just said, Yeah. And the reality is, you shouldn't do it to change the world. You should do it to do what's right for you, but that is what people see. I think ultimately, most people will sense when you're doing something, especially when you're doing it for the right reason. You're not doing it just to try to get vision. To get visible or publicity or whatever. And so I think when people see that, they empathize with it. And so you're right now, you never know when you're a nugget of hope.   Kim Lengling ** 34:34 That's right. Let's, let's just keep on making ripples.   Michael Hingson ** 34:37 Huh? Well, you know, it's similar, and I've thought and I've thought about it and talked about it on the podcast a few times. I used to always say when I wanted to to deal with something, and I was thinking about me internally, I'm going to deal with this, because I'm my own worst critic, and only in the last couple of years. Have I realized wrong thing to say I'm my own best teacher, which is a much more positive and relevant thing. And if you use that every time you might have used I'm my own worst critic, but you'd rather say I'm my own best teacher, look at the difference and the positive impact that mentally immediately has on you, much less however else you deal with it?   Kim Lengling ** 35:22 Oh, that is awesome. Michael, you should make that into a coffee cup.   Michael Hingson ** 35:28 Oh, well, or a teacup, but I'll have to worry.   Kim Lengling ** 35:35 Oh, I love that though. See, it's just shifting a couple words and how that can change your mindset and how you look at it exactly. Amazing. I love that. Thanks for sharing.   Michael Hingson ** 35:46 Well, you're welcome, and you can, you can use it. It's fair. I think I will perfect. Go ahead,   Kim Lengling ** 35:53 yeah, we've got see. That was an awesome nugget. So you're tossing it to me and I'm going to toss it elsewhere. Yeah, there you go. See we can. And you're in California and I'm in Pennsylvania, we have literally, just like criss crossed across the entire country.   Michael Hingson ** 36:08 Not gonna hope. We've blanketed the country, that's right, with hope. So you wrote, you've written a number of anthologies, and I guess the latest one is paw prints on the kitchen floor, which is the creative title, but what, what do you learn? And what do animals help you learn and and grow from that?   Kim Lengling ** 36:31 Gosh, you know, it's so fun. It was so fun putting that book together. There's, you know, about 20 different co authors in there, each with a chapter sharing a story of their animal on how they enrich their life in some way. And for me, oh my gosh. You know, some of the stories just bring you the tears. They make you laugh out loud. And each person writes so differently, it was just but for me, the dogs in my life that I've had in my life, they have taught me patience, empathy. They've also taught me to slow down at times, you know, I'll be I've caught myself rushing my dog. I'm like, come on, extra, come on. You've been sniffing that one blade of grass for like, two and a half minutes. Let's go. And then I realized, and then he doesn't listen to me, keeps on sniffing. And I'm like, You know what? Why am I? Why am I rushing him? You know, maybe I should just sit down and, you know, take in a couple deep breaths. So they've taught me to slow down and to enjoy the little things more, to see the world. You know, it's something, it's like, sometimes feels like, yeah, just get down on the ground and see the world from their point of view. You know? And I don't know, I we can learn an awful lot from animals, as I'm sure you are aware.   Michael Hingson ** 38:00 Well, last August, we published live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith. And the whole idea was to try to start to teach people how they can learn to control fear and not let it overwhelm or, as I put it, blind them. And the reality is, there's so much of that that we can learn from dogs and other animals, but specifically for me, guide dogs and in really studying fear,   Michael Hingson ** 38:33 so many lessons like, why do people fear so much? Well, because all we do is spend all day going well, what if this happens, or we are worried about every single thing that comes along, and we don't have control over, like over 90% of the things that come along, but yet we we try to, and we become afraid because of that. And rather than stepping back and going, Wait a minute, I don't have any influence over that. Okay, I'll be aware of it, but there's nothing I can do about it, so I'm not going to worry about it, you know. And you know, for example, using probably the most visible one today is, is our elected leaders. We've got people who are on both sides of supporting or not supporting the president and so on. But the reality is, the President is going to do what the President's going to do, and we and I'm not going to say what's good and not good about that, but the president's going to do what the President's going to do. What good does it do us to worry about all that all day, every day. Now I want to be aware of it, so I do watch the news, but I want awareness not being around to just go ape over everything that happens. And I learned that from working with and being involved with dogs. Dogs don't worry about that they live in. The moment they worry about what they have to deal with, and that's all they have to worry about. So they tend not to fear. They tend not to do well. They don't do what if and their their lives are much better and more peaceful. And we could learn so much from that, if we would, but do it.   Kim Lengling ** 40:17 Yes, yes, that's right. And you mentioned you used the word control at one point, because we don't have control over so much, even we like to think we do, yeah and we don't. Yeah, we don't at all. And once you realize that and actually accept that, I think for me anyway, it was easier to let fears go, because it's like, you know, I don't have control over really anything.   Michael Hingson ** 40:48 You know, control   Kim Lengling ** 40:50 is going to happen. I mean, yeah, some things, but not the big things. Or, like you said, to go ape over certain things we have no control over, so much, and you know, there's no reason to argue, fight, rip each other apart over things that literally you you personally have no control over.   Michael Hingson ** 41:10 The other part about that, though, is not while not having control, if we would, but talk about things and listen to other people and listen to their viewpoints. You never know what you might learn. Necessarily mean you're going to change your position, but you never know what you're going   Kim Lengling ** 41:28 to learn. That is right, and we don't have to agree. No, it's okay to disagree and still like each other.   Michael Hingson ** 41:36 Yeah, and it's and there's nothing wrong with that, no, but we live in such a society today, everyone wants to control everything, and if you don't do it just the way I do it, you're wrong. And that's just not true.   Kim Lengling ** 41:50 Yeah, and that's not the way it's supposed to be. You know, that's not how we're supposed to be living, not supposed to be living in anger and fear and arguments and, you know, darkness, that's just, it's just not the way it's supposed to be folks I don't know. So I work very hard to not live in an atmosphere or let myself be sucked into an atmosphere like that.   Michael Hingson ** 42:12 Yeah, I will, I will avoid those kinds of situations simply because there's no, there's no opportunity to really discuss and learn. If people want to talk, I love to talk, and I love to learn. And if, if people disagree with me, that's perfectly okay. My job is not to get angry about it. But I might say, Why do you have that position? Tell me more. Now, I've had some people where I know that their political views are opposite of mine, and if I ask them, Why do you believe this? For example, they won't even talk about it, because they just say, you know I'm right. And if you're asking, then you clearly don't have the same opinion I do, and we're not going to talk about   Kim Lengling ** 43:04 it. Yeah, I I steer clear of those types of conversations as well. When you know, when you know, going in, it'll go nowhere, but negative. Yeah, yeah, that's why, you know, I take a lot of walks with my dog.   Michael Hingson ** 43:23 Sometimes you can have those conversations, and that is so wonderful, because you never know what you might learn exactly. Doesn't necessarily mean you're going to change your opinion, but you get insights that you wouldn't get any other way. Communication is so important.   Kim Lengling ** 43:39 Yes, it is respectful, communicating, yes, I agree.   Michael Hingson ** 43:45 Yeah. Well, your latest book, nuggets of hope, cultivating kindness, that's that's a creative title, and so on. And I think that's really kind of cool. Can you tell us a story that particularly moved you that came out of that book, yeah, since we're authors and telling stories, yeah,   Kim Lengling ** 44:08 that's right, and I'm trying to remember if I shared this one on the last time I was with you or not, but I'll share a different one years ago. I'm a veteran, and I support veterans that struggle, that are in through my veteran post, we have, it's called Project support our troops. We send monthly boxes to those that are deployed around the globe. And we also help veterans in need in our local area as we're able to, and many of those have been, you know, through traumatic experiences or they live with PTSD. There was one young man years ago who reached out and called me and said, Hey, I need help. And I said, Okay, what can we help you with? And he gave me a little bit of his situation, and I said, All right, this is going to take me a minute. Or two to get some things rounded up. But yes, I think we can help you, and I want to help you. And then he called me back and said, You know what? No, forget about it. Forget I called you. I don't need help. I'm fine. And I said, I don't agree with you. I think you're fibbing. And it took a while, but he finally agreed to meet and not knowing him, and I'm, you know, I'm a single person. So I took a friend, a male friend, with me when I went to meet him at this at his home. And his home was more of a hovel than anything, and it was, it was a hovel. It was really unlivable. And I said, Where are you Where are you sleeping? And he pointed at a spot on the floor. And I said, well, and he was a Marine. I said, Well, marine, you're not going to sleep on the floor on my watch. And he says, Ma'am, I've slept in much worse places. I said, I am sure you have, but you're not going to sleep on the floor on my watch. We will get you a bed. What else do you need? And he wouldn't tell me, and I said, Can you show me through your home? And he said, I prefer not to. And I said, I can't help you unless I know what you need. And he took me through his home, and each room was worse than the last, falling apart, no water. It was pretty rough. And he was just a young man just doing the best he could to hang on, and I reached out to people that I knew, that I had met over the years, of doing things that we do through our post and to make a longer story shorter. It turns out a contractor saw and heard what I was trying to do, what we were trying to do for this young man. And he contacted me, and he said, If this young Marine agrees to it, take me out there, let me, let me take a look at his home, and we'll see what we can do. And he went in, took a look, and the young Marine was like, you know, what? If you could just fix this living room floor, that would be great. That's all I need, just if my living room floor because it was about to fall in. So if you could just fix that. And the contractor literally came in, and this brings me to tears. Came in room to room, and redid his whole home. I mean, with a bathroom, bedroom, living room, kitchen, I was able to get him furniture, I was able to get him a new appliances. I was able to get him a bed. We were able to get him a car, because he only had a motorcycle and winter was coming, and we know where I live. Yes, he's like, No, I'll be I'll be fine. I'm like, you cannot drive a motorcycle in the winter to work. You'll lose your job. And he had lost his job before because of that, so he was really, really in a tough spot. But people came together. Total strangers came together when I tossed out that call, and everyone came and brought in nuggets of hope, I mean, and for this young Marine, who was struggling so terribly in many ways, he now had a livable home that was much nicer than he even could imagine. He had a used car that a car sales, car dealership. They had an older used car, but it was in great condition. And they said, Hey, this will last him for a couple years, if he maintains it well, at least it'll get him by, you know. And then I had another person reach out and said, Hey, my mom would like to donate six months of insurance for this young marines car in honor of my dad, who was Marine. So all these people were tossing out these nuggets of Hope completely changed this young marines life completely around I kept in touch with them for years after and then I ran into him at a convenience store one day I was getting gas, and he said, Miss Kim. And I said, Oh my goodness. How are you? And he goes, I'm doing really, really well. You have no idea how good I'm doing, and I need to thank you, because you were my angel coming, coming to me when I needed it most. He goes, I got a full time job. I got accustomed to my son. I just bought a new house. I have a brand new car, and I just looked at him. I started crying because I met him at his lowest point, yeah, but so many of us came together and tossed out a nugget of hope and just shared kindness and love and understanding.   Michael Hingson ** 49:32 Was, was this all because of something like PTSD in his case?   Kim Lengling ** 49:37 Yes, yeah. He was struggling mentally, physically, because mental, mental has a plays a big part on your physical as well. You know, he was going through a divorce. He lost custody of his son. He was probably going to lose his job, his house was falling apart. And then, you know, for. Five or six years later, because I honestly almost didn't recognize him physically when I saw him, and I was just, I was thinking, Oh my gosh. So that was years later. So just think of what those little nuggets of hope that you toss out today, the long, lasting effects that they have. That's why I wrote this book. And it's just little stories, you know, little stories. That's such a huge story, but stories like that that are shared in there, along with just, you know, practical things on just, you know how to be kind. You can do it. You know, it doesn't cost a dime to be kind.   Michael Hingson ** 50:35 How did writing that book affect you, and how does it affect you? And I'll tell you why. Well, let me, let you answer, and then I'll tell you why I asked.   Kim Lengling ** 50:45 Well, I too live with PTSD, and when I help others, and when I am able to be a small spark of light or a nugget of hope to others that, in turn, helps me. And because sometimes, for me, anyway, I can, I call it a weight PTSD, sometimes can be really heavy on some days. And on those days, I found that if I reach out and help others, or do something to help others, do something positive, it takes some of that weight off. So it's a healing thing for me. And putting this book together and writing it, and thinking back over some of the things you know that happened as I was right. There were tears involved. I laughed, and then I at the end, I was just so very thankful, so very thankful that I was able to be in that spot, and that God put me where I was supposed to be in all this different circumstances to be a nugget of hope for someone so it was healing and also empowering, and gave me, you know, the inspiration to just keep on, keep on keeping on, keep on doing what I'm doing.   Michael Hingson ** 51:52 I asked because I kind of figured that would be your your answer. But I asked because I know, in my case, after September 11, people said, you need counseling and all that sort of stuff. But I started getting phone calls from reporters and my wife and I decided that I would would take those interview calls and people would come to our home, and that was therapy, because I got asked virtually any question that you could imagine regarding September 11 and me and so on, some very dumb questions that still happen today, but some really incredibly excellent, intuitive and concerning questions and having to learn to answer all of those because I put myself in the position where I needed to answer the questions was probably the best thing that I could do. So in your case, writing about it had to be helpful and pretty cathartic for you as well.   Kim Lengling ** 53:01 Yeah, it is amazing that now, did you, I guess, have a question for you. Yes, I do. Did you? Did you ever, I know that you said you and your wife decided yes, you're going to take those phone calls, you're going to take those interviews. But prior to that, did you find yourself maybe trying to stuff some of that stuff down.   Michael Hingson ** 53:23 I never did. So the story is that the next day, I contacted Guide Dogs for the Blind, where I've gotten all of my dogs, and among other things, I spoke to Joe and Ritter, who was our director of public information at the time, and she wanted to write a story, and I wasn't really thinking very straight. I that's what I say. But it didn't really matter. I said, Sure, go ahead. And she said, Well, I'll bet you'll also get a chance to be on TV. What television show do you want to be on first so I sort of flippantly said, Larry King lives, and on the 14th of September, we had the first of five interviews on Larry King Live. So the the first interview was actually from a major magazine the day before Larry King, I won't mention the name, and I'll and you'll see why in a moment, but the media had already gotten the story because Joanne wrote it and went out, and somebody called and they said they wanted to talk with me, and then near the end, they said, I want to come and take a picture of you wearing the suit that you wore on September 11. And I said, why? Well, that's all dirty and all that. And I said, No, we sent it to the cleaners already. Now we hadn't sent it to the cleaners, although we did, but I just thought that was a pretty obnoxious thing to say it was insensitive to say, I want you in the suit that you wore. I want to show you it was this dirty, scruffy guy when that really wasn't the kind of image that I wanted to project, because I was wow point where it's it's hard. Hope it's positiveness, and just doesn't make sense to do. So that was   Kim Lengling ** 55:05 the first that's really wow. That just amazes me that someone asked you to do that.   Michael Hingson ** 55:11 Yeah, wow. But, you know, had a lot of a lot of interviews and a lot of conversations with people ever since, and now it's kind of fun every so often, and I can't remember the last one, but every so often I'll get a question I've not heard before, but it doesn't happen very often anymore. But by the same token, I look for those questions because it shows that somebody's really thinking. I always hear what you didn't know happened because you couldn't see it. And that is so fun to deal with, because my response is always the same. The last time I checked Superman and X ray vision are fictitious, and the building was struck 18 floor above us on the other side. Nobody saw it where I was. But people want to rationalize, that's okay.   Kim Lengling ** 55:58 Yeah, that's okay.   Michael Hingson ** 56:02 So it makes   Kim Lengling ** 56:04 the world go round. You know, you have everybody that looks at the world in a different viewpoint.   Michael Hingson ** 56:07 So there, yeah, and sometimes we get to help people reshape it, or we work anyway. That's right. So faith is a big part of your life, isn't it?   Kim Lengling ** 56:16 It is, it is, I think that's, um, that's something. It wasn't always a part of my life. I was probably my mid 30s that I came to have faith, and since then, it has been a big part of my life. And on those tough days when the weight feels heavy and I'm out there walking with my dog more than normal, that is what I turn to, and I know, you know, it doesn't That's my belief. You know, everybody has their own beliefs, but for me, if I I've got God to talk to, and that makes a huge difference in in my life, and helps to settle me on those days that are then my that my soul feels a little bit unsettled. Prayer, being outside, being with my dog, that's what settles me, settles my soul, and I can just take a deep breath and keep on, keeping on.   Michael Hingson ** 57:13 I was talking with someone yesterday on a podcast episode that will be coming out and and it'll be probably one or two before yours. But he had an interesting thing to say, which I absolutely buy and I've believed for a long time, and that was we were talking about prayer, and he said the biggest problem with people in prayer is they're always telling God what they need, and they never listen to get the real answer, rather than recognizing God really knows what you want. And yeah, you might, we might say it, but then the real question is, do you ever slow down and listen to your inner voice, which is God that will tell you the answer to whatever it is that you're perplexed about? I thought that was very interesting for him to observe that. And I, I've believed that for a long time.   Kim Lengling ** 58:04 I believe the same as well for a very long time. That's why I'm always saying you got to slow down. You just got to slow down and take a look, you know, and listen, there's a reason that be still. Those two words are so powerful to Christians. Be still so and sometimes it's hard. I know that we're human, we're, you know, none of us, none of us are perfect. We are going to stumble, you know, especially if you're, you know, in your faith or your Christian walk, we're going to stumble because we're human, we're normal. But try and get off that, that hamster wheel, and slow down, because you're missing out on a lot. You're missing out on so much, and you're going to get, you know, Lord willing, you'll get to the end of your life, your later years, and you want to be able to look back fondly and smile, and not with, gosh, I wish I would have,   Michael Hingson ** 59:02 yeah, yeah. And it's so true. And the reality is that you do miss so much by just running around on the hamster wheel rather than slowing down, taking time to think about what happened today and even the good stuff. Could I have made it better? Could I have done anything? But when you have the stuff that didn't go well, what am I afraid of? What? What kind of fear is this causing? And those are things that we talk about and live like a guide dog, because those are all part of we need to learn to address and deal with in order to discover how better to control fear. And we can do that,   Kim Lengling ** 59:39 yes and be thankful, even for those, Mm, hmm, even for the crappy days. Yeah, yeah, thank you for even third crappy days, because you still, you got another day,   Michael Hingson ** 59:50 but still take the time on the crappy days to learn exactly right? And most people won't do that, and that's that is a. Fortunate, because those are the best learning experiences if you listen to hear what you're being told about, how to make sure that crappy day never happens again.   Kim Lengling ** 1:00:11 I agree. Look at us. Michael, see still, we're still solving the world problems here.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:17 Yeah, we're blindly blanketing the country with nuggets, right? Well, I don't want to bury everybody, so I'm gonna thank you for being here. It's been a whole hour already. How can people reach out to you?   Kim Lengling ** 1:00:33 Best way is just go through my website, which is Kim Lang, author.com you can see what I'm doing, the books that are out there, what's coming up. You can meet Dexter, because he is my office manager, and he actually he receives all the emails and then lets me know what's happening and who I need to reach out to. So he keeps me on track and keeps me on my toes. But yeah. Kim Lengling, author.com, you can find   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:59 lending and spelled   Kim Lengling ** 1:01:00 L, E N, G, l, I N, G,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:04 there you go, just like it sounds. That's right. Well, and reach out to Dexter. And one of these days, well, we were talking before we started the podcast. I'm going to be in Pennsylvania at the beginning of October, and I hope maybe we'll get to meet Dexter. Wouldn't that be awesome? We'll let Dexter meet Alamo.   Kim Lengling ** 1:01:25 There we go. Yeah. Why not? By golly works for me.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:33 Well, thank you for being here and again, I want to thank all of you for listening. I hope you've enjoyed this. I hope you've gotten some things out of it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:41 It's it's fun talking to Kim. We'll have to do it again. And I know that I was on let fear bounce, and I'm going to go back on that again. So go off and check out her podcast, let fear bounce and listen to it. Lots to learn there, and we'll hopefully contribute a few nuggets along the way as well, but I want to thank you all for for all that you do to support us. Please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening and please, if you would know anybody else who want to be a guest, or who you think ought to be a guest, let us know. Introduce us. We would appreciate it, and give us a five star rating wherever you're listening to us so again though. Kim, thanks very much. This has been fun again.   Kim Lengling ** 1:02:25 Yes, it has. Thank you very much. Been a true blessing. Michael, thank you.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:33 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

We pop it, lock it, and polka dot it to see if Hannah Montana is truly the "Best of Both Worlds". Music from https://filmmusic.io "Glitter Blast" by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/) All our social media links:  https://linktr.ee/rewatchingthemagic If you're able, please give blood. The American Red Cross: https://www.redcross.org/ Immigrant Legal Resource Center: http://www.ilrc.org Trans Life: http:/www.translife.org Reproductive rights are human rights. LGBTQ+ rights are human rights.

Operaspymaster you may ask? Read on and listen to this episode. In this powerful and multifaceted episode of Unstoppable Mindset, we welcome Kay Sparling, former opera singer, PTSD survivor, and now debut novelist—as she shares her incredible life journey from international stages to the shadowy world of espionage fiction. Kay talks about the creation of her first novel, Mission Thaw, a gripping spy thriller based on her own real-life experiences volunteering with refugees in post-Cold War Europe. Kay and Michael discuss the inspiration behind her protagonist, CIA agent Caitlin Stewart, and how real-world trauma and service led Kay to use fiction as both a vehicle for healing and a call to action on the modern crisis of human trafficking. This is a conversation that transcends genres—music, espionage, activism, and resilience—all converging through the unstoppable spirit of a woman who refuses to stay silent. About the Guest: Kay Sparling was raised in the Midwest. At the age of seven, she began her professional singing career as Gretl in “The Sound of Music” and she continued to perform through high school. After graduation Kay attended University of Kansas and earned a BME in music education and a minor in Vocal Performance. She then attended graduate school in opera voice performance for one year at UMKC Conservatory of Music. She was awarded a grant to finish my graduate studies in Vienna, Austria. From there she won an apprenticeship at the Vienna State Opera. After moving to NYC to complete her second apprenticeship, Kay lived in Germany, Austria, and Italy for many years. In 1999 Kay returned to NYC and continued singing opera and became a cantor for the NYC diocese. After 9/11, she served as a cantor at many of the funeral and memorial masses for the fallen first responders. In 2003, Kay moved from NYC to the upper Midwest and started a conservatory of Music and Theatre where her voice students have been awarded numerous prestigious scholarships and won many competitions. In 2020, the pandemic shut down her conservatory, so she began training to be a legal assistant and now works in workers compensation. Back in 2013, Kay had started writing a journal as a PTSD treatment. She was encouraged to extend the material into a novel. After much training and several drafts, Mission Thaw was published in 2024. Kay is currently writing the second book in the Kaitlyn Stewart Spy Thriller Series. Ways to connect with Kay: Website: https://www.kaysparlingbooks.com X: https://x.com/MissionThaw/missionthaw/ Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/missionthaw.bsky.social Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/505674375416879 Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kay-sparling-8516b638/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/missionthaw/ Litsy: https://www.litsy.com/web/user/Mission%20Thaw About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:16 Well, hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I'm your host, Mike hingson, and our guest today is a very fascinating individual. I was just teasing her a little bit about her email address, which is operaspy master@gmail.com I'm telling you, don't cross her. That's all I gotta say. Anyway, we'll, we'll get into all of that. But I really am glad that she is with us. Kay Sparling is a fascinating woman who's had an interesting career. She's written, she's done a number of things. She's used to be an opera, gosh, all sorts of stuff. So anyway, we'll get to all of it and we'll talk about it. I don't want to give it all away. Where would the fun in that be? Kay, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Kay Sparling ** 02:11 Well, thank you. I'm glad to be here. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:13 we're glad you're here. You're from up in Wisconsin. We were going to do this a couple of weeks ago, but you had all the storms, and it stole your internet and your power away, didn't   Kay Sparling ** 02:23 it? It sure did. Yeah, that was a terrible storm we had.   Michael Hingson ** 02:28 Yeah, that's kind of no fun. I remember years ago, I was talking to somebody on the phone. We were doing a sales call, and he said, I might not be able to stay on the phone because we're having a really serious storm, and he said it is possible that the lightning could hit the phone lines, and if it does, it could come in the house. And we talked for a few minutes, and then he said, I'm going to have to hang up, because I just felt a small shock, because the lightning obviously hit the phone line, so we'll have to talk later. And and he was gone. And we did talk later, though he was okay, but still, wow, yeah, there's a lot of crazy weather going on, isn't there? And we were just talking about the, we were just talking about the Canadian wildfires. They're No fun.   Kay Sparling ** 03:15 No, no. Just everywhere is having crazy weather.   Michael Hingson ** 03:20 Well, tell us a little bit about you growing up and all that sort of stuff, and telling me about the the early K   Kay Sparling ** 03:32 Well, growing up, I grew up in a farm community in the in the central Midwest, just you know, right in the middle of the bread basket, you might say, not near where you are now. No no, no further south and in very much agriculture time, I mean skipping ahead. I remember talking to a famous opera conductor when I was an apprentice, and I made some reference, and he goes, Well, how would you know that? And I said, because I grew up on a farm. And he went, Oh, get out here. Nobody makes it, you know, to a major European opera house from a farm. And I went, Well, I did. And later, I asked my mom to send me a picture, because we had had an aerial view taken of our homestead, and it was obvious for miles, all the way around the house and the barn and all, it was just corn fields and soybeans. You know what they showed   Michael Hingson ** 04:40 Illinois, Illinois, and so you showed it to him, yeah,   Kay Sparling ** 04:44 I showed it to him, and he was like, well, doggone, you're not lying. Like, No, I wasn't kidding you. I really did.   Michael Hingson ** 04:51 It shows how good I really am. See how far I progressed.   Kay Sparling ** 04:55 Well, you know, I was one of these kids. I. At five years old, I my parents took me to see sound and music at the theater, and during the intermission. Now I'm five years old, it's pretty late for me, right? But when we're in the concession stand, I tug at my mom's skirt, and I say, Mom, that's what I want to do. And she looks at me kind of funny, and she's kind of funny, and she's kind of confused. Well, what do you want to do work in a theater? You know, a movie theater? No, no, I want to do what those kids are doing on that on the movie screen. And she was like, Well, honey, you know, that's that's really hard to get somewhere like that. So that was when I was five. And then when I was seven, she just, you know, the all the school and the church were telling her, this kid's got a great voice, and they kept giving me solos and stuff. And so when I was seven, she put me in the Sangamon County Fair Little Miss competition. And of course, my talent was singing, so I just sang away. I really can't remember what I sang, but afterwards, a fellow came up to my parents and introduced himself, and he said that he was there, he had family, not, you know, in the area, and that he had grown up there, but since then, he he was in St Louis, and he said, we are, I'm a scout, and I'm looking, I'm an entertainment Scout, and I'm actually looking for, you know, the von trop children. We're going to do a big production, and we'd love to audition your daughter. Well, we were about, think it was an hour and a half away from St Louis, so my parents are like, wow, that'd be quite a commitment. But long story short, I did it, and that started my professional career. I was the youngest Bon Troy. You know, over cradle, yeah. And so it just went from there. And, you know, it was all Broadway, of course, and I did a lot of church singing, you know, it got to be by the time I was, you know, in high school, people were hiring me for weddings, funerals, all that kind of thing. And so I was a Broadway and sacred singer. Went to college. My parents said, you can't depend on a vocal performance degree. What if things don't work out? You have to have something fall back. So I went into vocal music ed at a very, very good school for that, and also music therapy, and, you know, continue being in their shows. And when I when I graduated, continued the Broadway, and one night I was also singing a little bit of jazz in Kansas City, where I was living, someone approached me. She was a voice teacher at the conservatory there, and that conservatory had an apprenticeship with the Kansas City Lyric Opera. And she said I knew you was an undergrad. My husband works where you, where you went to school, and I have been watching you for a long time. And I wish you quit this nonsense of singing Broadway and jazz and rock and everything and get serious, you know, and try opera. So I thought she was crazy to bring that up, but it wasn't the first time it had been brought up. So I have been teaching for a year, and at the end of that school year, I announced everyone I was going to graduate school and I was going to study opera. And so   Michael Hingson ** 08:55 what were you teaching?   Kay Sparling ** 08:57 I was teaching high school choir, okay, at a very big high school, very, very good choir department.   Michael Hingson ** 09:03 Now, by the way, after doing Gretel, did you ever have any other parts as you grew older in Sound of Music?   Kay Sparling ** 09:11 Okay, that's a very cool question. I am one of the few people that I know that can say I have sang every major role in Sound of Music sometime in my life. Ah, okay, because it was so popular when I was Oh, yeah. And as I would grow older, well now you're going to sing, you know, you just kept graduating up. And then pretty soon I sang quite a few Marias. And then after I was an opera singer. During covid, I was asked to sing Mother Superior. Mother Superior. Yeah, literally, have sung, you know, in a decades long career, I've sung every role in Sound of Music.   Michael Hingson ** 09:56 Cool. Well, that's great.   10:00 Yeah, so, so, anyway, so   Michael Hingson ** 10:02 you said that you were going to go study opera,   Kay Sparling ** 10:07 and I did a graduate school, and then I got the chance to get an international grant over to Europe, and so I decided to not finish my masters at that time and go over there and finish it, and most of all, importantly, do my first apprenticeship in Europe. And so I thought that was a great opportunity. They were willing. They were going to willing to pay for everything. And I said I would be a fool to turn this down. Yeah, so off I went, and that's kind of the rest of the story. You know, got a lot of great training, left Europe for a while, moved to New York City, trained best coaches and teachers in the world at the Metropolitan Opera and then, you know, launch my career.   Michael Hingson ** 11:04 So you Wow, you, you've done a number of things, of course, going to Europe and being in Vienna and places like that. Certainly you were in the the right place.   Kay Sparling ** 11:16 Yes, yes, definitely. You know, at that time in the in the middle 80s, United States was we had some great opera houses Iran, but we had very few. And it just wasn't the culture that it was in Europe, in Europe. And so, yes, there was a lot more opportunity there, because there was such a culture established there already.   Michael Hingson ** 11:44 So you went off and you did Europe and saying opera, what were you a soprano? Or what were you that sounds like a way a little high for your voice?   Kay Sparling ** 11:59 Well, you have to remember, I'm a senior citizen now. So this is the way it worked for me, because we're talking decades from the age 27 and I quit singing at 63 so that's a very long time to sing opera. So I started out, as you know, there is a voice kind of category, and each one of those, we use a German word for that. It's called Foch, F, A, C, H, and you know, that is determined by the kind of vocal cords you have, and the kind of training and the literature you're singing, and hopefully that all meshes together if you have good coaches and a good agent and such. And I literally have seen so many different Fox lyric, lyric mezzo, then to, very shortly, lyric soprano, and then for a long time, spinto soprano, which would be the Puccini and a lot of them really popular things. And then I was, I felt I was quite lucky that my voice did have the strength and did mature into a Verdi soprano, which is a dramatic soprano, not many of those around. And so that was, that was an endeavor, but at the same time, that was a leg up. And so most of the time in my career, I sang the bigger Puccini, like, let's say Tosca, and I sang a lot of Verdi. So I was an Italian opera singer. I mostly sang in Italian, not to say that I didn't sing in German or French, but I did very little in comparison to the   Michael Hingson ** 13:56 Italian Well, there's a lot of good Italian opera out there, although mostly I don't understand it, but I don't speak Italian well.   Kay Sparling ** 14:07 The great thing about most houses now is, you know, you can just look at the back of the seat in front of you, and there's the translation, you know, yeah, that   Michael Hingson ** 14:18 doesn't work for me. Being blind, that doesn't work for you. Yeah, that's okay, though, but I like the music, yeah. So how long ago did you quit singing?   Kay Sparling ** 14:32 Um, just about, well, under, just a little under three years ago, okay?   Michael Hingson ** 14:38 And why did you quit? This was the right time,   Kay Sparling ** 14:42 senses or what I had a circumstance, I had to have throat surgery. Now it wasn't on my vocal cords, but it was on my thyroid, and unfortunately, the vocal cord nerve. They had to take out some Cyst On. My right thyroid, and then remove it too. And unfortunately, my vocal cords were damaged at that time, I would have probably be singing still now some you know, I mean, because dramatic sopranos just can go on and on and on. One of my mentors was Birgit Nielsen, famous singer from Sweden, and she was in my grandmother's generation, but she didn't, I went to work with her, and she demonstrated at 77 she could still pop out of high C. And I believe, I believe I would have been able to do that too, but you know, circumstances, you know, changed, but that's okay. Yeah, I had sung a long time, and at least I can speak. So I'm just very happy about that.   Michael Hingson ** 15:51 So when you did quit singing, what did you decide to go do? Or, or, How did, how did you progress from there?   Kay Sparling ** 16:01 Well, I had already made a transition where I had come in 2003 to the Midwest. I came back from New York City, where I lived many, many years, and I started a conservatory of music and acting, and then that kind of grew into a whole conservatory of music. So I was also a part time professor here in Wisconsin, and I taught voice, you know, one on one vocal lessons, so high school and college and graduate school, and so I had this huge studio. So when that happened, I wasn't getting to sing a whole lot, because I was much more focused on my students singing me at that point, especially the older ones, professional ones, and so, you know, I just kept teaching and and then I had started this book that I'm promoting now, and so that gave me more time to get that book finished   Michael Hingson ** 17:10 and published. What's the name of the book?   Kay Sparling ** 17:13 The book is called Mission, thaw.   Michael Hingson ** 17:16 Ah, okay, and what is it about   Kay Sparling ** 17:22 mission thaw is feminist spy thriller set at the very end of the Cold War in the late 80s, and the main protagonist is Caitlin Stewart, who it who has went over there to be an opera singer, and soon after she arrives, is intensely recruited by the CIA. They have a mission. They really, really need a prima donna Mozart soprano, which is what Caitlin was, and she had won a lot of competitions and won a grant to go over there, and so they had been vetting her in graduate school in the United States. And soon as she came to Europe, they they recruited her within a couple weeks of her being there, and she, of course, is totally blindsided by that. When they approach her, she had she she recognized that things were not exactly the way they should be, that people were following her, and she was trying to figure out who, are these people and why are they following me everywhere? Well, it ends up being young CIA agents, and so when the head chief and his, you know, the second chief, approach her, you know, she's not real happy, because she's already felt violated, like her privacy has been violated, and so she wasn't really too wonderful of listening to them and their needs. And so they just sort of apprehend her and and throw her in a car, in a tinted window Mercedes, and off they go to a park to talk to her, right? And so it's all like crazy movie to Caitlin. It's like, what is going on here? And, you know, she can tell they're all Americans, and they have dark suits on, even though it's very, very hot, and dark glasses, you know? So everything is just like a movie. And so when they approach her and tell her about what they need her to do, you know, and this would be in addition to the apprentice she is doing that, you know, she just gets up and says, I'm sorry I didn't come over and be in cloak and dagger. A, you know, ring, I'm getting out of here. And as she's walking away, the chief says, Well, what if you could help bring down the Berlin Wall? Well, now that stops her in her tracks, and she turns around. She goes, What are you kidding? I'm just a, you know, an opera apprentice from the Midwest grew up on a farm. What am I gonna do? Hit a high C and knock it down. I mean, what are you talking about?   Michael Hingson ** 20:28 Hey, Joshua, brought down the wealth of Jericho, after all. Well, yeah, some   Kay Sparling ** 20:34 later, someone tells her that, actually, but, but anyway, they say, well, sit down and we'll explain what we need you to do. And so the the initial job that Caitlin accepts and the CIA to be trained to do is what they call a high profile information gap. She has a wonderful personality. She's really pretty. She's very fashionable, so she can run with the jet set. And usually the jet set in Europe, the opera jet set is also where all the heads of states hang out, too. And at that time, the the Prime Minister was pretty much banking the Vienna State Opera where she was apprenticing. So he ends up being along with many other Western Austrian businessmen in a cartel of human trafficking. Who they are trafficking are all the the different citizens of the countries that USSR let go. You know, when you know just got to be too much. Remember how, oh yeah, we're going to let you go. Okay? And then they would just pull out. And there was no infrastructure. There was nothing. And these poor people didn't have jobs, they didn't have electricity. The Russian mafia was running in there trying to take, you know, take over. It was, it was chaos. And so these poor people were just packing up what they could to carry, and literally, sometimes walking or maybe taking a train into the first Western European country they could get to. And for a lot of them, just because the geographical area that was Austria. And so basically, the Austrians did not want these people, and they were being very unwelcoming and arresting a lot of them, and there was a lot of lot of bad behavior towards these refugees. And so the Catholic church, the Catholic Social Services, the Mennonite Relief Fund, the the UN and the Red Cross started building just tent after tent after tent on the edge of town for these people to stay at. And so the businessmen decide, well, we can traffic these people that have nothing over to the East Germans, who will promise them everything, but will give them nothing. But, you know, death camps, basically, just like in World War Two. So you have work camps, you have factories. They they don't feed these people correctly. They don't they don't give them anything that they promise to them in in the camps. And they say, Okay, be on this train at this time, this night. And then they stop somewhere in between Vienna and East Germany, in a very small train station in the middle of the Alps. And they have these large, you know, basic slave options. And unfortunately, the children in the older people get sent back to the camp because they don't need them or want them. So all the children get displaced from their families, as well as the senior citizens or anyone with a disability. And then, you know, the men and the women that can work are broken up as well, and they're sent to these, you know, they're bought by these owners of these factories and farms, and the beautiful women, of course, are sold to either an individual that's there in East German that just wants to have a sex aid, pretty much. Or even worse, they could be sold to an underground East Berlin men's club. And so terrible, terrible things happen to the women in particular, and the more that Caitlin learns. As she's being trained about what's happening, and she interviews a lot of these women, and she sees the results of what's happened, it, it, it really strengthens her and gives her courage. And that's a good thing, because as time goes through the mission, she ends up having to be much, much more than just a high profile social, you know, information gather. She ends up being a combat agent and so, but that that's in the mission as you read, that that happens gradually and so, what? What I think is really a good relationship in this story, is that the one that trains her, because this is actually both CIA and MI six are working on this, on this mission, thought and the director of the whole mission is an very seasoned mi six agent who everyone considers the best spy in the free world. And Ian Fleming himself this, this is true. Fact. Would go to this man and consult with him when he was writing a new book, to make sure you know that he was what he was saying is, Could this really happen? And that becomes that person, Clive Matthews become praying, Caitlyn, particularly when she has to start changing and, you know, defending herself. And possibly, you know,   Michael Hingson ** 26:38 so he becomes her teacher in   Kay Sparling ** 26:42 every way. Yes. So how   Michael Hingson ** 26:45 much? Gee, lots of questions. First of all, how much of the story is actually   Kay Sparling ** 26:50 true? All this story is true. The   Michael Hingson ** 26:53 whole mission is true. Yes, sir. And so how did you learn about this? What? What caused you to start to decide to write this story?   Kay Sparling ** 27:08 So some of these experiences are my own experiences. And so after I as an opera singer, decided to be a volunteer to help out these refugees. I witnessed a lot, and so many years later, I was being treated for PTSD because of what I'd witnessed there. And then a little bit later in Bosnia in the early 90s, and I was taking music therapy and art therapy, and my psychiatrist thought that it'd be a good idea if also I journaled, you know, the things that I saw. And so I started writing things, and then I turned it in, and they had a person that was an intern that was working with him, and both of them encouraged me. They said, wow, if, if there's more to say about this, you should write a book, cuz this is really, really, really good stuff. And so at one point I thought, Well, why not? I will try. So this book is exactly what happened Caitlin, you know, is a real person, and everyone in the book is real. Of course, I changed the names to protect people and their descriptions, but I, you know, I just interviewed a lot of spies that were involved. So, yes, this is a true story.   Michael Hingson ** 29:06 Did you do most of this? Then, after your singing career, were you writing while the career, while you were singing?   Kay Sparling ** 29:13 I was writing while I was still singing. Yeah, I started the book in 2015 Okay, and because, as I was taking the PTSD treatment and had to put it on the shelf several times, life got in the way. I got my my teaching career just really took off. And then I was still singing quite a bit. And then on top of it, everything kind of ceased in 2018 when my mother moved in with me and she was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, but Louie body Alzheimer's, which is a very, very rough time, and so I became one of her caretakers. So I quit singing, put that on hold, and I. I had to really, really bring down the number in my studio I was teaching and spend time here at home. And so I would take care of her, but then after she would go to bed, and she'd go to bed much earlier than I wanted to, that's when I write, and that's when I got the lion's share of this book written. Was during that time, it was a great escape from what I was dealing with, believe it or not, you know, even though there's some real graphic things in the book and all it wasn't, it was a nice distraction.   Michael Hingson ** 30:36 Wow, so you, you lived this, needless to say,   Kay Sparling ** 30:41 Yes, I did, and yes.   Michael Hingson ** 30:45 So you've talked a little bit about what happened to these countries after the collapse of the USSR and communism and so on, these eastern companies, companies, countries. Has it changed much over the years.   Kay Sparling ** 31:03 Oh, yeah, for instance, one, you know, I went to Budapest after they were freed, I guess is what usr would say. Stayed in a five star hotel, and we were lucky if we had running water and electricity at the same time. And every time you went down on the streets, all you'd see is lines, you know, I mean, just because there'd be all like, Red Cross, etc, would be there, and they'd have these big trucks they drove in every day, and it just got to be because they had nothing. If you saw a truck, you'd start running towards it and get in line. You didn't care what it was, you know, and it was. And then fights would break out because they wouldn't have enough for everyone. And then, like, you know, maybe someone's walking away with a bag of rice, and some of us knock them over the head and take, you know, and it was very hard, you know, I was a volunteer there, and it was very, very hard to see this, you know, desperation, one story that I'd like to tell, and I put it in the book. I was riding my bike, you know, on a Friday afternoon to get some groceries at the nearest supermarket where my apartment was, and at that time, they still had the European hours, so they were going to close at five o'clock, and they weren't going to open until seven or eight on Monday morning. So you had to make sure you got there to get your weekend supply. So I was on my way, and I was parking my bike, and this woman, refugee woman, runs up and she has two small children with her, and she's carrying a baby, and she's speaking to me in a language I did not know. I do speak several languages, but I don't know Slavic languages and so, but I'm getting the gist of it that she has nothing to eat, neither do her children, and so I'm patting her on the shoulder, and right when I do that, a policeman that was guarding the door of the supermarket came up to me and, like, grabbed me really hard, and told me in German that I was not To speak to them, and I was not to help them, because if you help them, they'll stay. And I said to him in German, I'm an American. I am not Austrian. I am here on a work visa, and I can do whatever the hell I want to do. Well, he didn't like that. And so I just walked away from him, and I went in the store. And so I got up everything I get. Think of the big need, you know, I never had a baby, so I was trying to kind of figure that out, yeah, and I had to figure it out in German, you know, looking at labels now. And so finally I got, I got some stuff, you know, the stuff I needed, and, and, and the stuff that I got for the family, and I checked out, and I'm pushing the cart, you know, towards them. And he runs up beside me and stops me, and he says, I am going to arrest you if you bring that. I told you not to help them. And I said, again, I don't think I'm breaking any laws. And he said, Oh yes, you are. And I said, Well, I didn't read that in the papers. I didn't see it on TV where anyone said. That you cannot help a refugee. And so we're going back and forth. And so, you know, I'm pretty strong, so I just keep pushing it towards it. Well, she's kind of running down the park, and I'm like, wait, wait, you know, because she's getting scared of this guy, you know, he has a gun, he has a nightstick. Of course, she's scared, and so, you know, I would say, No, no, it's okay, because I can't speak for language, right? And so I'm just trying to give her body language and talk. Well, finally she does stop, and I just throw I give the one sack to the little boy, and one second little girl, they just run and and then, you know, I'm talking to her and saying, you know, it's okay, it's okay. And he grabs me, and he turns me around and he spits in my face.   Michael Hingson ** 35:53 Wow. Talk about breaking the law. But anyway, go ahead.   Kay Sparling ** 36:00 Welcome to Austria in the late 80s. You have to understand their Prime Minister Kurt voltheim won on the Nazi ticket. Mm, hmm. At that very time, if you got on a bus and you saw these businessmen going to work, at least 50% of them were reading the Nazi paper. Okay, so we kind of know what, where his affiliations lie. You know, this policeman and, you know, and I was very aware, you know, of of that party being very strong. And so you have to watch yourself when, when you're a foreigner. And I was a foreigner too, just like her. And so after wiping my face, I mean, I really, really wanted to give him a kick or something, yeah, and I do, I do know martial arts, but I was like, no, no, gotta stay cool. And I just told her to run. And she did and caught up with the children, and, you know, kept running. So that was the first experience I had knowing how unwelcome these people were in Austria. Yeah, so I got involved, yeah, I got involved because I was like, this is absolutely not right.   Michael Hingson ** 37:31 And so the book is, in part, to try to bring awareness to all that. I would think   Kay Sparling ** 37:36 absolutely there are, there are bits of it are, they're pretty darn graphic, but it's all true, and it's all documented. Sometimes people about human trafficking, they think, oh, it's not in my backyard. I'm not going to think about that. Well, I live in a very small college town, around 17,000 people, and two months ago, on the front page of this small paper here in town, there were seven men that were arrested for many counts of human trafficking of underage women and prostitution. So guess what, folks, it is in your backyard. If it's in this little town, it's probably in yours too. And we have to be aware before we can do anything. So we have to open our eyes. And I hope this book opens the eyes of the reader to say, Oh, my God, I knew things were bad, but I didn't realize that torture, this kind of thing went on. Well, it does, and I the International Labor Union estimates that 21 million people are being you. You are victims of human trafficking right now, as we speak, throughout the world, that's a lot of people, a lot of people. So most likely, we've all seen some hint of that going on, it didn't register as it at the time. You know, if you're just walked out of a restaurant, and you're walking to your car that's parked on the street, and you happen to go by an alley and there's restaurants on that row, and all of a sudden you see people being kind of shoved out and put in a truck. That's probably human trafficking, you know? And you know, a lot of people don't pay attention, but like, if they stop and think that doesn't look right, and if those people look like they may be from another country, yeah. And all you have to do is call the authorities, you know, and other ways that you can help are by you know, that that you can get involved. Are, you know, donate to all the different organizations that are finding this now.   Michael Hingson ** 40:19 Was the book self published, or do you have a publisher?   Kay Sparling ** 40:25 I self published, but it's more of a hybrid publishing company that's kind of a new thing that's going on, and so I cannot learn all those different facets of publishing a book, right? It just wasn't in my, you know, skill set, and it also wasn't even interesting to me. I don't want to learn how to do graphic illustration. Okay? So what I did is I hired a hybrid company that had all these different departments that dealt with this, and I had complete artistic control, and I was able to negotiate a great deal on my net profits. So I feel that, after looking into the traditional publishing world and not being exactly pleased with it to say the least, I think that was the right business choice for me to make, and I'm very happy I did it.   Michael Hingson ** 41:46 How do you market the book then?   Kay Sparling ** 41:48 Well, that was, that was the tricky part that that publisher did have some marketing they started, but obviously now they agreed it wasn't enough. So at that point, I attended a virtual women's publishing seminar, and I really paid attention to all the companies that were presenting about marketing. And in that time, I felt one that I just was totally drawn to, and so I asked her if we could have a consultation, and we did, and the rest is history. I did hire her team and a publicist, Mickey, who you probably know, and, yeah, it's been going really great. That was the second smart thing I did, was to, you know, hire, hire a publicity.   Michael Hingson ** 42:50 Well, yeah, and marketing is one is a is a tricky thing. It's not the most complicated thing in the world, but you do have to learn it, and you have to be disciplined. So good for you, for for finding someone to help, but you obviously recognize the need to market, which is extremely important, and traditional publishers don't do nearly as much of it as they used to. Of course, there are probably a lot more authors than there used to be too. But still,   Kay Sparling ** 43:19 yeah, their their marketing has changed completely. I remember I had a roommate that became a famous author, and just thinking about when he started, you know, in the 80s, how the industry is completely changed. Mm, hmm, you know. So, yeah, it's, it's really tricky. The whole thing is very tricky. One thing that I also did is one of my graduate students needed a job, and so I've known her since, literally, I've known her since eighth grade. I have been with this student a long time, and she's done very well, but she really is a wiz at the social media. And so she made all my accounts. I think I have 12 altogether, and every time I do something like what I'm doing tonight, soon as it's released, she just puts it out there, everywhere and and I have to thank her from again that that's probably not my skill set.   Michael Hingson ** 44:37 Well, everyone has gifts, right? And the the people who I think are the most successful are the people who recognize that they have gifts. There are other people that have gifts that will augment or enhance what they do. And it's good that you find ways to collaborate. I think collaborating is such an important thing. Oh, yeah. All too many people don't. They think that they can just do it all in and then some people can. I mean, I know that there are some people who can, but a lot of people don't and can't.   Kay Sparling ** 45:12 Well, I've got other things. I've got going, you know, so maybe if I only had to do the book, everything to do with the book, that would be one thing, but I, you know, I have other things I have to have in my life. And so I think that collaboration is also fun, and I'm very good at delegating. I have been very good at delegating for a long time. When I started my school. I also started a theater company, and if you know one thing, it's a three ring circus to produce an opera or a musical, and I've done a lot of them, and yeah, I would have not survived if I didn't learn how to delegate and trust people to do their own thing. So what are you   Michael Hingson ** 45:58 doing today? What are you doing today? Besides writing?   Kay Sparling ** 46:04 Well, during covid, everything got shut down, and I didn't have an income, and I had to do something. And one of, believe it or not, one of my parents, of one of my students, is an attorney for the state of Wisconsin, and she was very worried. I mean, it looked like I might lose my house. I mean, I literally had no income. And so, you know, I was a small business person, and so she offered me very graciously to come work in the department of workers compensation in the legal Bureau at the state of Wisconsin. So I never have done anything like that in my life. I have never sat in a cubicle. I've never sat in front of a computer unless it was in its recording studio or something like that. So it was a crazy thing to have to do in my early 60s, but I'm a single woman, and I had to do it, and and I did, and it put me on solid ground, and that was one reason I couldn't finish the book, because I didn't have to worry about a live cookie. And so I am continuing to do that in so as in the day, that is what I do. I'm a legal assistant, cool.   Michael Hingson ** 47:32 And so when did mission thought get published?   Kay Sparling ** 47:38 Mission thought almost a year ago, in August of 2024 it launched, yes, okay, yeah. And it was very scary for me, you know, because my hybrid publishers up in Canada, and they were telling me, Well, you know, we're going to get you some editorial reviews and we're going to have you be interviewed. And you know, those very first things where my editor at at the publisher had told me it was one of the really a good book, and that was one of the cleanest books she ever had to edit. And so that kind of gave me some confidence. But you understand, look at my background. I I didn't go to school to be a writer. I had never studied writing. I hadn't done any writing up until now, and so to that was my first kind of sigh of relief when the editor at the publisher said it was really a good book, and then I started getting the editorial reviews, and they were all stellar, and they continue to be. And I'm, I'm still a little shocked, you know, because it takes time, I guess, for a person to switch gears and identify themselves as an author. But you know, after a year now, I'm feeling much more comfortable in my shoes about that. But at first it was, it was trying because I was scared and I was worried, you know, what people were going to think about the book, not the story, so much as how it was crafted. But it ends up, well,   Michael Hingson ** 49:15 it ends up being part of the same thing, and yeah, the very fact that they love it that that means a lot. Yeah, so is, is there more in the way of adventures from Caitlin coming up or what's happening?   Kay Sparling ** 49:30 Yeah, this is hopefully a trilogy, um of Caitlin's most important standout missions. And so the second one is set in the early 90s during the Bosnian war. And this time, she cannot use opera as a cover, because obviously in a war zone, there's no opera. And so she has to. To go undercover as either a un volunteer or Red Cross, and this time, her sidekick is not the Clive Matthews. He has actually started a special squad, combat squad that's going in because, of course, we, none of us, were really involved with that war, right? But that's what he's doing. And so, believe it or not, her, her sidekick, so to speak, is a priest that very early, goes on and sees, you know, this absolute ethnic cleansing going on, you know, massacres and and he tries to get the Catholic Church to help, and they're like, no, no, we're not touching that. And so he goes AWOL. And had been friends in Vienna with the CIA during the first book. He goes to the CIA and says, This is what's going on. I saw it with my own eyes. I want to help. And so he becomes Caitlin's sidekick, which is a very interesting relationship. You know, Caitlin, the opera singer, kind of, kind of modern girl, you know, and then you know, the kind of staunch priest. But they find a way to work together, and they have to, because they have to save each other's lives a couple times. And this is my favorite book of the three. And so basically what happens is called Mission impromptu, and I hope to have that finished at the end of this month. And the reason we call it impromptu is because her chief tells her to just get the information and get out, but her and the priest find out that there is a camp of orphaned boys that they are planning to come massacre, and so they they they basically go rogue and don't follow orders and go try to help the boys. Yeah. And then the third book, she has actually moved back to New York, and she's thinking, well, she does retire from the CIA, and it's the summer of 2001 and what happened in September of 2001 911 and so they call her right back in she literally had been retired for about three months.   Michael Hingson ** 52:35 Well, to my knowledge, I never met Caitlin, so I'm just saying Mm hmm, having been in the World Trade Center on September 11, but I don't think I met Caitlin anyway.   Kay Sparling ** 52:43 Go ahead. No, she wasn't in the towers, but no, I was in New York. And yeah, so they called her back right away. And so the third one is going to be called Mission home front, because that's been her home for a very long time. She's been living in New York.   Michael Hingson ** 53:01 Are there plans for Caitlin beyond these three books? I hope so.   Kay Sparling ** 53:08 I think it would be fun for her to retire from the CIA and then move back to the Midwest. And, you know, it turned into a complete fiction. Of course, this is not true stuff, but, you know, like kind of a cozy mystery series, right, where things happen and people can't get anyone to really investigate it, so they come to Caitlin, and then maybe her ex boss, you know, the chief that's also retired, they kind of, you know, gang up and become pi type, you know, right? I'm thinking that might be a fun thing.   Michael Hingson ** 53:46 Now, are mostly books two and three in the mission series. Are they also relatively non fiction?   53:53 Yes, okay,   Michael Hingson ** 53:57 okay, cool, yes. Well, you know, it's, it's pretty fascinating to to hear all of this and to to see it, to hear about it from you, but to see it coming together, that is, that is really pretty cool to you know, to see you experiencing have the book, has mission thought been converted by any chance to audio? Is it available on Audible or   Kay Sparling ** 54:21 anywhere it has not but it is in my plans. It's there's a little bit of choice I have to make do. I use my publisher and hire one of their readers you know to do it, someone you know, that's in equity, that type of thing. Or you know, my publicity, or people are also saying, well, because you're an actor, and, you know, all these accents, it might be nice for you to do to read your own book. Well, the problem is time, you know, just the time to do it, because I'm so busy promoting the book right now. And really. Right writing the second one that you know, I just don't know if I'm going to be able to pull that off, but I have my own records, recording studio in my voice studio downstairs, but it's just and I have all the equipment I have engineers. It's just a matter of me being able to take the time to practice and to get that done. So it's probably going to be, I'll just use their, one of their people, but yes, yeah, it's coming. It's coming. Well, it's,   Michael Hingson ** 55:29 it's tough. I know when we published last year, live like a guide dog, and the publisher, we did it through a traditional publisher, they worked with dreamscape to create an audio version. And I actually auditioned remotely several authors and chose one. But it is hard to really find someone to read the book the way you want it read, because you know what it's like, and so there is merit to you taking the time to read it. But still, as you said, there are a lot of things going on,   Kay Sparling ** 56:09 yeah, and I have read, you know, certain portions of the book, because some podcasts that I've been on asked me to do that, and I and I practiced and that, it went very well. And of course, when people hear that, they're like, Oh, you're the one that has to do this. You know Caitlin. You can speak her, you know her attitudes and all. And then you also know how to throw all those different accents out there, because there's going to be, like, several, there's Dutch, there's German, there's Scottish, high British and Austrian. I mean, yeah, yeah, Austrians speak different than Germans. Mm, hmm,   Michael Hingson ** 56:53 yeah, it's it's a challenge, but it's still something worth considering, because you're going to bring a dimension to it that no one else really can because you wrote it and you really know what you want them to sound like, Yeah, but it's a it's a process. I and I appreciate that, but you've got lots going on, and you have to have an income. I know for me, we started live like a guide dog my latest book when the pandemic began, because I realized that although I had talked about getting out of the World Trade Center and doing so without exhibiting fear, didn't mean that it wasn't there, but I realized that I had learned to control fear, because I learned a lot that I was able to put to use on the Day of the emergency. And so the result of that was that, in fact, the mindset kicked in and I was able to function, but I never taught anyone how to do that. And so the intent of live like a guide dog was to be a way that people could learn how to control fear and not let fear overwhelm or, as I put it, blind them, but rather use fear as a very powerful tool to help you focus and do the things that you really need to do. But it's a choice. People have to learn that they can make that choice and they can control it, which is kind of what really brought the book to to mind. And the result was that we then, then did it. And so it came out last August as well.   Kay Sparling ** 58:27 Oh, well, if you read my book, you'll see Caitlin developing the same skills you were just talking about. She has to overcome fear all the time, because she's never been in these situations before, and yet she has to survive, you know?   Michael Hingson ** 58:44 Yeah, well, and the reality is that most of us take too many things for granted and don't really learn. But if you learn, for example, if there's an emergency, do you know where to go in the case of an emergency? Do you know how to evacuate, not by reading the signs? Do you know? And that's the difference, the people who know have a mindset that will help them be a lot more likely to be able to survive, because they know what all the options are, and if there's a way to get out, they know what they are, rather than relying on signs, which may or may not even be available to you if you're in a smoke filled environment, for example, yeah,   Kay Sparling ** 59:22 yeah, you should know ahead of time. Yeah, you know, I know the state where I work. I I mostly work at home. I'm able to do that, but we do have to go in once a week, and we just changed floors. They've been doing a lot of remodeling, and that was the first thing, you know, the supervisor wanted us to do was walk through all the way for a tornado, fire, etc, and so we did that, you know, and that's smart, because then you're like, you say you're not trying to look at a chart as you're running or whatever,   Michael Hingson ** 59:56 and you may need to do it more than once to make sure you really know it. I know for me. I spent a lot of time walking around the World Trade Center. In fact, I didn't even use my guide dog. I used a cane, because with a cane, I'll find things that the dog would just automatically go around or ignore, like kiosks and other things. But I want to know where all that stuff is, because I want to know what all the shops are down on the first floor. Well, now that that is the case anymore, but it was at the time there was a shopping mall and knowing where everything was, but also knowing where different offices were, knowing who was in which offices, and then knowing the really important things that most people don't know about, like where the Estee Lauder second store was on the 46th floor of tower two. You know, you got to have the important things for wives, and so I learned what that was. Well, it was, it was, those are important things, but you'll learn a lot, and it's real knowledge. Someone, a recent podcast episode that they were on, said something very interesting, and that is that we're always getting information, but information isn't knowing it. Knowledge is really internalizing the information and making it part of our psyche and really getting us to the point where we truly know it and can put it to use. And that is so true. It isn't just getting information. Well, that's great. I know that now, well, no, you don't necessarily know it now, until you internalize it, until you truly make it part of your knowledge. And I think that's something that a lot of people miss. Well, this has been a lot of fun. If people want to reach out to you, is there a way they can do that?   Kay Sparling ** 1:01:40 Yeah, the best thing is my book website, K, Sparling books.com spelled and it would K, a, y, s, p, as in Paul, A, R, L, I N, G, B, O, O, K, s.com.com, okay, and you can email me through there. And all the media that I've been on is in the media section. The editorial reviews are there. There's another thing that my student heats up for me is the website. It's it's really developed. And so lots of information about the book and about me on on there. And one thing I want to mention is, just because of my background and all the all the people that you know, I know, a friend of mine is a composer, and he wrote a song, a theme song, because we do hope that someday we can sell this, you know, yeah, to for movie and, or, you know, Netflix, or something like that. And so he wrote a theme song and theme music. And I just think that's fun. And then I wanted my students saying, saying it. And then, you know, it's with a rock band, but it's, it's very James Bond, the kind of with a little opera, you know, involved too. But, you know, not a lot of authors can say that on their website, they have a theme song for their books.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:16 And where is   Kay Sparling ** 1:03:18 it? It would be under, it's going to be about the author. And there's a nice one of my other students is a graphic artist. She She did a graphic a scene of Caitlin with her ball gown, and she's got her foot up on a stool, and she's putting her pistol in her thigh holster, in I think, you know, it's kind of like a cartoon, and it quotes Caitlin saying, I bet you I'm going to be the only bell at the ball with this accessory pistol. And then right underneath that, that song, you can click it and hear it. We also are on YouTube mission. Thought does have its own YouTube channel, so you can find it there as well.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:05 So well, I want to thank you for being here and for telling us all the stories and especially about mission. I hope people will get it and read it, and I look forward to it coming out in audio at some point. Yes, I'll be lazy and wait for that, I I like to to get books with human readers. You know, I can get the print book and I can play it with a synthetic voice, but I, I really prefer human voices. And I know a lot of people who do AI has not progressed to the point where it really can pull that off.   Kay Sparling ** 1:04:38 Well, no, it cannot. Yeah, I totally agree with you there.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:42 So Well, thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching us today. This has been fun. And as some of you know, if you listen to many of these podcasts, we have a rule on the podcast, you can't come on unless you're going to have fun. So we did have fun. We. You have fun? Yeah. See, there you go. I was gonna ask if you had fun. Of course, yes. So thank you all for listening. Love to hear from you. Love to hear what your thoughts are about today's episode. Feel free to email me at Michael H, i@accessibe.com that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, also, please give us a five star rating. We appreciate it. K, I'll appreciate it. And when this goes up, when you hear it, we really value those ratings and reviews very highly. If you know anyone else who ought to be a guest and KU as well, love to hear from you. Please introduce us. Kay, you'll have to introduce us to Caitlin, but But seriously, we always are looking for more guests. So if anyone knows of anyone who ought to come on and tell a story, we'd love to hear from you. But again, Kay, I want to thank you one last time. This has been great, and we really appreciate you being here.   Kay Sparling ** 1:05:59 Well, thank you for having me.   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:04 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Meet Dr. Tamir Qadree who grew up one of 11 children in a 2-bedroom apartment in Chicago. When I asked him how 11 children and two parents lived in an apartment with only 2 bedrooms his response was that it is all about family. We all made it worked, and we all learned to love each other. Tamir heard about California before high school and wanted to move to that state. A brother, 8 years older than Tamir, was recently married and agreed to take Tamir to California since this brother and his new wife were moving there. Tamir always had a “servant attitude” toward others. He felt that he could learn to help others and, after attending some community college courses he decided to go another route from school. Tamir always felt he was selling and in sales. He tells us about that and points out that we all sell and receive results from others who sell in whatever we do. Dr. Qadree eventually discovered metaphysics which is about self-help and learning to adopt a mindset of improvement through self-analysis. We discuss this in detail as you will hear. Tamir offers many good life pointers and lessons we all can adopt. This episode is pack with useful ideas that we all can use to better our lives. About the Guest: ‘The Dean of Dynamic Results' “The Dean of Dynamic Results” has a Double Doctorate in the field of Metaphysical Philosophy, specializing in personal development coaching, mentoring, mind, and mystical research. The Powers of the Mind, Influence and Attraction has captured the minds and imagination of the world over the past 35 years. Dr. Tamir Qadree is a leader in the field of this study, and says that, “WE Can All Achieve Dynamic Results”! Tamir is the author of several books, audio programs. He conducts workshops, 2 day retreats and does one on one, exclusive coaching. His clientele has ranged from business developers in the fields of Network Marketing, Direct Sales, Real Estate, Legal, the Medical Professions, and Self-Help enthusiastic individuals, both nationally and internationally. Dr. Tamir Qadree, (Also known as TQ) carefully guides his audience and clients through the vast field of sales psychology, effective closing skills, prospecting mastery and all of the necessary communication skills needed in today's world. He also teaches and demonstrates the connection between ‘The Results the Reader or Listener Gets,' and his or her ‘Emotional States and Habits.' Tamir teaches his students how to ‘Feel' rather than to simply ‘Reason' everything through. He teaches that, feeling is more about ‘Intuition' while reason is often about ‘Ego' and knowledge gleaned from books on one level; but when they are both combined (Feeling and Reason) you have your road map to success and contentment. Tamir Qadree, writes with clarity, precision, and direct language, that is easy to read, simple to follow and are full of great content. His podcast, (Dean-Cast) are usually not planned. They flow from inspiration and direct knowledge from experience. What you read and listen to in his array of programs are genuine, authentic, and straight from ‘The Dean of Dynamic Results himself.' The information Tamir delivers, whether from audio book, eBook, audio programs or Dean-Cast, or Live Events, are carefully select and digested to bring to the reader, the listener, the audience, the best information. Often there are differences of opinion in matters of, ‘what to eat,' or ‘how to lose weight' or ‘scientific and technology.' These are all necessary to grow, to develop and to keep the mind moving and expanding. Welcome To The World of The Dean! Ways to connect with Dr.Tamir: New Podcast, "Dynamic Results On Fire!' Every Monday! https://tamirqadree.com https://learn.tamirqadree.com Https://coach.thedeanofdynamicresults.com dynamicyou@gmail.com (17) Dr. Tamir Qadree | LinkedIn (20+) Facebook Dr Tamir Qadree (@theresultscoach1) | TikTok (381) The 'Results' Coach - YouTube https://www.Instagram.com Ebooks and an audio program: Clear Vision – Mastermind Mastery Click and Grow Rich – Mastermind Mastery Super Potential – Mastermind Mastery The Esteem Success Factor – Mastermind Mastery About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I've told you all in the past about a program that I attend every so often called Podapalooza. And on the 19th, excuse me, the 18th of June, we had number 16 in the patapalooza series. And one of the people I got a chance to speak with was Dr Tamir Qadree. And Tamir is is our guest today. He calls himself or I want to find out if he calls himself that, or somebody else calls him that, the Dean of dynamic results. I want to hear more about that, certainly, but we're really glad that he's here. He has been involved in dealing with metaphysical philosophy. He's a coach. He does a lot of things that I think are very relevant to what we hear from a lot of people on this podcast. So I'm really looking forward to having a chance to chat with you. So Tamir, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 02:25 I'm glad to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me.   Michael Hingson ** 02:28 Well, we appreciate you coming and spending the time. We met Wednesday the 18th of June, and here it is the 24th and we're chatting. So that   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 02:37 works. That works out for me well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:41 so tell us a little bit about the early Tamir growing up.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 02:46 The early Tamir growing up, sure, interesting story that's always fun, because I grew up in Chicago on the west side, and during time I grew up, I grew up in in the 70s, that was coming out of the turbulent 60s of the youngster, then coming out of that, coming out of the the other protests and the civil rights movement and all that stuff. So I grew up in the 70s. Basically, life to me was a lot of it was. I had a lot of happy times in my life, although we had so called very little. My mom had a home with a partner with 13 children, 13 people at all times, two bedrooms. I don't know how she made that work, but she did. We had, we stayed cleaned the house. My like bleach. We smell like bleach. We smell like pine. Saw and so I got my my my cleanliness from that. I don't know how she did it. And we all ate, okay. And what I got from my childhood, me, my brother, we we've always been innovative. We've always been results driven, going out, knocking on doors. Before there was a Door Dash, we were knocking on doors, taking buying people's groceries, going to store for them. We're cutting their yards and doing odd things to earn money. So I've always been go get a results. Driven guy, not afraid to ask and looking to get the results, not just for the money, but the money was good to have. But I've always been like that. That's in a nutshell. Where I've always been,   Michael Hingson ** 04:18 well, how did you all sleep? 13 people in the apartment?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 04:22 Well, it was my mom, my dad, before they separated, and it was 11, and then plus cousins, so that's 14. Hey, you know, buddy Michael, you make it work? Yeah, people say how it's not how. I think why is a better question. Because you're a family and you can make it work. It can work easier than people think it can, because we have love and togetherness and closeness, and you have two parents that are on top of their game is doing the best they can do. It works. That's a very good question. And you're the first person to have asked me, how did that work? You're the first person.   Michael Hingson ** 04:56 Well, I can imagine that there are ways to make things work. Um. Um, as you said, you do have to be innovative, and you all have to learn that it's important to get along, and that's what family is really all about,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 05:09 that that's true and that we did not we had to get along. We live in a house with that many children, five boys and six girls, no six boys and five girls. I reversed it. You have to learn to get along. You have to learn to respect the different genders. You have to learn respect authority. You have to learn to share how to care for other people. Interesting about that, my mom would always bring people in from the street. She'd find people less privileged than us, believe it or not, let's we'll have one bathroom, by the way, less privileged. She would buy them clothes and feed them, and we abuse that person any kind of way we get it, where we get it? Okay, so I got that from also that's and that that leads me into how I am now.   Michael Hingson ** 05:53 Well, we'll get there. So you went to school in Chicago, and how long did you live   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 05:58 there? Why would the school I started high school in California? Okay? So California, okay? My freshman year in Cali. Yeah, California.   Michael Hingson ** 06:07 So what caused you guys to move out to California?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 06:10 Well, my aunt came out maybe 20 years before. Then my sister came out. Two years after that, my sister came back bragging about California. Everybody in those days, everybody thought California the land of milk and honey, back in the Midwest and back east California, Judas, land of milk and honey. It really is. People will go California represented freedom to us, the promised land. It really did sort of a promised land thing. And I was just determined to get to California. My story, if I can tell you about me getting to California, we're in the household. I was 14. My sister had came and promised she'd take me with her. And I said, Okay, I'll go. I was her favorite, she promised. So I told everybody on the block, I'm going to California. 13 going on, 14 year old kid, and have people excited. He's going to California. Some were jealous, and I was telling people I would knock on their door and go and go pick up groceries for them and cut yards. And after the summer passed, my sister couldn't get me any people started laughing at me, Jeremy behind my back. He's not going to California. And some of my siblings were, of course, probably a little jealous, little envious. He's not going some people, yeah, you're not going anywhere. You stay down here with us, in this area, with us. And so I said, No, I'm going to California. And I watched this story the weekend before going to high school. My mother said she lied to you. She's not going to get you. She lied to you. You can give it up. My cousin said she lied to you. I said, No, I'm going to California. I had two pair of pants, one pair of shoes, two pair underwear and two shirts. That's all I had. I was going to go to school. Well, that Friday came, I said, I'm going to California that Friday. This is all summer. I've been saying that people started doubting me. My brother walked in the door. My older brother, eight years old, to me, walked in the door about an hour later and said, I just got married, me and my wife decided to go to California. Monday. You can come with us. That's why I got to California.   Michael Hingson ** 07:52 There you go. Well, and again, it's really cool that family sticks together somehow, Too bad your sister misled you, but you you made it work.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 08:05 Well, I don't think she so much misled me. She couldn't make it work. She wanted to do it. She couldn't find the finance, little time or the effort. She couldn't make it work. She didn't make it work. You know, she obviously lied to me. That's what they thought. But no, I don't think I never thought that.   Michael Hingson ** 08:19 Yeah, well, I understand. Well, at least you made it and you got to California. And so what did you find when you got out here?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 08:27 I found it to be what I thought it's going to be okay. I saw I was driving, we're driving. And came over the mountains. We saw the little the little lights on the freeway, the little on the road, the little reflectors. We're like, wow, there's diamonds in the streets of that night, right? With those reflected, we never seen nothing like that before. Wow. They're diamonds in the street. And then we look around like at San Jose, and I would see the lights up in the air. It was the mountains, with people living in the mountains, yeah, with the lights, we I thought, Oh, my God, this is heaven. I didn't know. Yeah, please know those houses the lights. So anyway, it was what I thought was going to be. Here's the land of milk and honey.   Michael Hingson ** 09:05 For me, sure. I'm not sure what caused my parents to want to move to California. We moved in 1955 right? In fact, I mentioned earlier, we did patapalooza on the 18th of June, and today is the 24th that is the day we're recording this. So you'll see when this actually comes out. But June, 24 1955 was the day we arrived in California from Chicago. And I don't know what caused my father to want to sell his part in the television repair business that he and my uncle owned and wanted to get a job in California, whether they thought it was the land of milk and honey or what I've never, never did learn. But nevertheless, we moved out to California, and I think there was a lot to be said for they wanted to be out here. They felt that there were a lot of opportunity. And probably they wanted to get out of the city, but we did. So I have now been out here, other than living in other places as an adult. Part of the time I've lived out here 70 years. 70 years. Well, we came out in 1955 we got here on June 24 1955 so it's pretty cool. But anyway,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 10:25 I wasn't born, but you beat me. Well, there you go.   Michael Hingson ** 10:28 Well, I think there's a lot to be said for California. It's, you know, I can make a lot of places work. I've lived in New Jersey, I've lived in Boston. I've lived in other places in Iowa for a little while and so on. And so I know there are places that are a lot colder than California, and where I even live in California, and there are places that are warmer but still enjoy it well. So you moved out to California when you went to high school here. And then did you did college. Where did you do college?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 11:03 Well, I did some community college at De Anza. I did some courses over there. Most of my learning came from self study, community college courses, self study and university. Finally, University of metaphysics. I got involved in metaphysics over 20 years ago, which is, metaphysics is really philosophy. Philosophy comes from the Greek word, I believe metaphysical from from philosophy. So it's philosophy. It's what it is. I got involved in that about 25 years ago, when I met speakers like Anthony Robbins Les Brown, I started listening to Norman, Vincent, Peale, you've heard of him. People like that. People like that. And then I got into I've always been, I've always been a voracious reader, even in Chicago, I've always been a voracious reader, someone that wanted to know. So my educational track really started. See education in the United States and in a lot of places, is them pouring some menu. But true education is what you bring out of you, is what you learn about yourself internally. That's the true education, instead of pumping stuff in what's inside of you. So you take what's taken outside of you and mix it with what's inside of you, and there you go. So I've always been a self starter, but the University of metaphysics is really, really with the jewel to me. I said there's actually a place that reward or they give you a degree and what   Michael Hingson ** 12:21 you love. And where is that university?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 12:25 It's in Arizona. It's the largest metaphysical university in the world, the oldest metaphysical university in the world. In fact, Harvard just start off in metaphysical degrees in my in my field, about four years ago, which is a great thing, great. They finally came around to it and and they recognized it. Wait, wait a minute, they start offering the same degrees, metaphysical degrees. Now, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:49 well, but still, so did you go there and actually study there, or did you study remotely, as it were,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 12:56 instead of remotely, like Phoenix and all it's remote. I went there, of course, I graduated and going back and doing, get my third doctorate, to graduate, go across stage two. You have, we have ceremonies and all that. And we have, you know, we're renowned throughout the metaphysical world, throughout the world, as far as philosophy, right?   Michael Hingson ** 13:14 What got you to decide that you wanted to take up a study of metaphysics? You know, you went to community college. You studied some things there, and what did? Well, let me do this first. What did you do after Community College?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 13:26 Community College, I was family man, working building. See, I've always been a self starter. I've never jobs. Never settle with me. See, so I've always been a student, a study here. I've always been someone to read the books. Mm hmm. Listen to the motivational thing. Listen to the philosophy. I've always wanted to know deeper knowledge. And I had my brother that brought me to California. He's always been a student too. He was in the service. He's always been a a person that study and contemplate. He studied politics, war, philosophies, religion, and I follow. I did the same thing. So it's something that's been inside of me, believe it or not, for a very long time. I've known this since I was like eight years old. I've actually known it, and people that knew me knew it. In fact, one lady told me this about four years ago. She knew because I was a baby. I hadn't talked to her in about 40 years. She said, Oh my God, she's really my cousin, but not blood. And she said, Oh my God. And she started telling me about myself. Hence, she told me. She said, when you were a baby in the crib, you would always stand up for what's right. How can I do that in the crib? She said, when somebody's done wrong, you let them know. When you're a baby, when you guys start to stand up, walking up, you'd always stand up for what's right. So I've always had this sense of me, of service to other people and a sense of justice. Okay, certainly, I've had my pitfalls too and all that. That's not the point, but I've always had that with me. I've always had that thing about service and helping others. So getting into self help, which is what metaphysics is, self help and self development gets it was right up my alley. It was right down my lane. It. Was a straight strike. When I did that, it's just a strike. It's a fit like a glove. The glove does fit, by the way.   Michael Hingson ** 15:08 Well, what did you What is but what did you do after college? You had to support yourself and so on, until you decided to take this up. What did you do?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 15:16 No, no, I've been in sales all my life. Okay, I've been, I've been a salesman all my life. You've been sales, okay, yeah, sales, people, sales, good sales people will never starve. No, you always find a way to make it. That's it. I've been selling all my life, yeah? So that that that should answer that, yes, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 15:32 Now I understand well, and there's nothing wrong with being a good salesperson. I think that so many people don't understand that and misunderstand sales, but there are also a lot of people who do truly understand it, and they know that sales is all about developing trust. Sales is all about guiding somebody who needs something to the best solution for them, not just to make money, but as you said, it's all about self help and and helping others.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 16:01 Well, well, it's actually something real quick about sales. People that have issues with sales don't understand one thing you have issues with people that use sales in unethical way. Yeah, everything is sales, the phone you use and the headset using the house you get you to buy it from someone that sells the water that comes to your home is put there by somebody signing the contract. That's sales. Who going to bring the water to our home? What company? PG, e Edison cup, whatever. All everything is based on sales, sales communications. But because there's some people that are shysters, you blame the whole pot. You blame everybody. That's not the way it sells. Sales is sales is community. Sales is service. That's what sales   Michael Hingson ** 16:41 is. Sales is service. That's what it appear. And simple,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 16:45 yeah, it's not some sheisty guy or woman trying to con you. And no, that's a con person.   Michael Hingson ** 16:51 There are too many of those. There are way too many of those, but never every field. Yeah, in every field, yeah, sure. But what you say is true, sales is service in every sense of the word. And the best sales people are people, people who really understand that and put service above basically anything, because they know that what they do, they can do well, and they can help other people and make money, which is also part of what they do need to do, and that's okay.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 17:18 And without sales, nothing goes around. Sales is really communication. Sales connecting a product or service, fulfilling the need, getting rid of a pain or something you really don't want to bring you to what you want that sales is fulfilling, is uprooting the pain unfulfilled desire and bringing you to the pleasure side of getting what you need, whether it's food, clothing and shelter, all sales doing a bridging the gap, and the salesperson is a communicator that bridge that gap. And the reward is, once you have two satisfied sides, the company and the individual, the product, and the reward is you get paid to do it, right? So now it's like you're getting paid to do what you love, sure.   Michael Hingson ** 18:01 Well, and there you go, well. So you have, however, been a person who's been very focused on the whole concept of self improvement for quite a while. Yes. So what got you started down that road?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 18:19 Here's what got me started down that road I'm gonna go way back to Chicago again. I remember I was 13 years old, and my uncle used to get he was a big beer drinker, and he just talked to me, invite me over and my auntie, and he wanted me to talk. He's wanted me he won't hear me talk. I always had these philosophical sayings, even I was 10 years old, philosophical quotes, these ideas that I didn't read, but just came to me, and one day I told him, life is a dream. We're here to play roles, and we leave the earth. You wake up. In other words, there's no real physical body passes on, but you wake up and you're boom, whatever. Anyway, these philosophies like that. And he was at the lake with me trying to catch fish. He was so busy drinking beer and talking, he wouldn't catch no fish. He told me, talk. Keep talking. I kept talking. And so one day, he brought out my other uncle with us, and we sit down at the lake. And my other uncle was saying, I wish he'd Shut up. He turned to me and say, Talk. Listen to this boy talk. He kept doing that. And one day my aunt said this, he brings Tamir over because he want him to talk. That's why he brings them over. So that kind of encouraged me to make me realize that I had something of value, not just talk, something to say, he would ask me. And then I knew, I knew, from then on that I had a place in life to assist and service others will not just talk, but practical ideas to get results. So I've been known that for a very long time, allowed me to be very successful in sales. I've been top producing billion dollar companies allow me to write books and to be on share the stage with some great people like Mark Victor, Hansen and Jim Rohn. It allowed me to get into a space to where I am now, where this flawless confidence that I can be doing half whatever I want to be but I. I'm able to show other people how to do the same. Those are receptive and those that afford me to show that I'm not for everybody. I understand that,   Michael Hingson ** 20:07 right? You can only do what you can do, right? So you started down this, this path of dealing with self improvement, and how did that lead you into metaphysics?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 20:24 Well, remember now metaphysics and self is the same thing. It's just a different word. It's the same thing. Self improvement come from metaphysics.   Michael Hingson ** 20:31 But what made you decided that you wanted to get, like, an advanced degree in it, and actually get degreed in it   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 20:37 after studying over 1000 books in like a two year period. Literally, literally reading those books. Okay? After going through that kind of I went through a breakthrough in 2005 and I went to a breakthrough session called Breakthrough to success. And the gentleman told me something that's very interesting. I said, in this circle about 50 people around me, like I'm a fish in a fish bowl, he told me, I had high self confidence for low self esteem. In other words, I don't know what self esteem was. I had developed a Harvard vocabulary. I had spoken on stage and coached clients. I was top producing network marketing company. I don't know what self esteem I never thought about what self esteem was. He told me that if, for some reason, it really hit me, it really hit to the core of who I am. What do you mean low self esteem? You have had self confidence. And here's what I went home and I cried that night. I realized that what I realized what that meant, because I accept, I have to accept that, but I did. Here's what that meant. Self esteem is self confidence how you feel you can do outside of you. Self esteem is how you feel about yourself, okay, and there's no one like you. And I realized that self esteem by loving yourself and appreciating yourself, not trying to be anybody else, not trying to wish you with somebody else, not want anybody else, money, fame or fortune, but being you and loving you. When I got that, when I got that, my whole world shifted. Mm, hmm. It shifted from this having this confidence, knowing what I can do. I can communicate and speak and sell, but how do I I wasn't give enough attention to myself and appreciating who I was, my own value and that that go,   Michael Hingson ** 22:08 and that certainly is something that people around you would sense, who who understand how to do that, right?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 22:16 Well, this guy certainly did, and, yeah, I guess he's the only one that says that, not just me, but other people. I said, Wait a minute. I said, is I never, had never thought about that. Then I wrote a book called from that. I mean, I must have cried for about 30 days straight, every day, tears of joy in my heart. I didn't care about fame or fortune or impressing nobody. I wasn't trying to be this big speaker, this big guy. I'm just being me. I'm I love me. I didn't care about none of that, but myself and what I call God. And from that point on, I begin to really get things come to me that I never have. My mind really opened up to why I didn't care about trying to please anybody I was enjoying every moment. And I wrote a book called reclining master, awaken one minute to healthy esteem. That's when I wrote that book. It talked about, it's like an autobiography. It talked about my journey to understanding that and what happened to me, what what caused me to have low self esteem, what caused not to even understand what self esteem was, and I was a child in that book. Remember the movie The Wolf Man, with Lon Chaney, Cheney, That movie scared be Jesus out of me. My siblings would take me and tell me I was The Wolf Man, Wally Wolf. They call me The Wolf Man, right? And That movie scared me, man, and it really had a psychological effect on my on me growing up, right? I was really, really afraid, and didn't know that that child in me was still afraid. It was afraid all that time. And that's the part that was really hurt by the low self esteem when I discovered that game was on. It was over as far as that. No, I love me. I'm good enough. I am that you're a bet, we're both that that's all there is that was it. Game was on after that.   Michael Hingson ** 23:53 So does the boyfriend scare you today? No, I   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 23:56 laugh at that. Okay, it's funny. That's funny as heck. I laugh at it. It's funny as heck to me and like, Wow. I look at again, like, wow, really, seriously, I can see how that could affect somebody. You tell a little kid something like that.   Michael Hingson ** 24:09 Lon Chaney in that movie, comes across as not having great self esteem. But that's another story.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 24:16 Look well and i It's not to say I mimic that.   Michael Hingson ** 24:19 I manage that? Yeah,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 24:23 people too. I get to fight side you bite, people too.   Michael Hingson ** 24:27 So when did you essentially start doing your own business and start working toward coaching and teaching and finding ways to work with clients?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 24:39 2000 No, 1994 I began to really study the self improvement movement. And I would see guys like Les Brown, that's, wait a minute. Wait a minute. I like that. I was already that. I was already teaching. I was already doing that. I didn't know that was a field. I've told that. Years ago, a guy told me that, and I. The other field, like that. And I started to study those guys and see what they do. And I'm like, really interesting. They're doing their thing, they're talking they're assisting people. Okay, I can do that too. Then I get involved in network marketing. Network marketing is one of those fields where people are. They're some most open to self development I've ever seen out of all the fields, network marketing and direct sales, they are the most open people to self development. They will spend the money on themselves. People spend money on everything, on fancy cars, bigger housing, they need clothing, everything. But they lot of more spend money on good books and to self improve, right? So when I, when I, when I saw that, I said, Wait a minute. Hmm, here we go. Here we go. This is what I want to do. This what we'll do. So I took that with my sales ability, and I started to have that finance me as I go see sales and self improvement. The same thing, the best sales people have charmed character charisma and class. They have charm. Character charisma and class. They ask questions. They seek to see understand other people. They seek to appreciate other people. Those who appreciate it show appreciation. They seek to listen and to learn and to find out what the customer or client want. And they try to match that with that, out of all sincerity, and that's why I love sales. Sales and self improvement go together. Yeah, they go right together.   Michael Hingson ** 26:25 And the best sales people are the ones who will even say, if their product isn't the right product, it won't work,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 26:32 it won't work. And that's the best coaches, the best anything. If I was coaching the client today, and she's a prospect and we're talking, and I told her that I don't want your money. No, no. This. This is a preliminary call. Okay, here's why. I don't know if I can assist you or not. I don't know what I have will assist your situation. I don't even know you yet. How can I ask you for money? She was so appreciative of that, because most people in our industry, they talk to you one time and offer you something. Wait a minute. You don't know what Michael needs. You haven't even diagnosed him. You heard what he's gonna say. You had a canned thing. You're gonna it was canned what you're gonna say to him. You do what you're gonna say. Well, me, I'm different, Michael, I don't know what I'm gonna say to you. That 30 minute call is really discovery call, sure. And if you qualify, if I qualify, let's set up another call in that call. Then at the end of that call, we may come to something, then I can make your offer. So I feel I can help you at if there's a match, boom. That's what a doctor does. No. Doctor, no. Doctor you go to is going to tell you your jaw hurt. You said, No. Doctor, my thigh hurts. Is a pain? No, your jaw hurts that doctor's a quack. That's a lot of coaches do. A lot of them are quacks. They just read something and they want to apply to micro plat. To Michael, apply to me. That may not even fit me. I may not be the one to help Michael, sure, and I have enough integrity and faith and confidence to command to know that in other way, I don't have commission breath. I'm going to get mine regardless. And nobody can stop   Michael Hingson ** 27:54 it, sure. Well, and again, it's how you operate, and it's the ethics you operate with which is very important. Ethics.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 28:05 In fact, I it's, this is a shameless plug, but I'm gonna do it anyway. My third doctor I just finished, called conscious business ethics. Conscious business ethics. You see how we went from metaphysics to to the secular world, and Harvard went from the secular world to metaphysics, we both came together now. So we're doing one. I'm doing one now on conscious business ethics, which is a really big issue in business today. Oh yeah, business are more concerned about their bottom line than the people that work for them, until they treat their employees like customers. They always have those problems they don't need,   Michael Hingson ** 28:39 and it's unfortunate, but I think there have always certainly been people who weren't overly ethical, but I think it used to be that a larger number of businesses were more loyal to employees than we see today. Now the response always is, this is what the stockholders want. That's what we have to listen to, and that's all we listen to. And that's just not true.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 29:05 Not only is it not true, is it not true? What a lot of companies are turned around, well, they begin to understand the value of self improvement, the value of treat the value of leadership versus management, the value of being a boss versus being a leader. There's a difference. Managers push leaders, pull managers tables. Do leaders encourage you. They change languages on how they talk to you, how to present to you. They that you understand. You have a family. This person has a family. Have needs and concerns outside this business, the way a lot of businesses do it now and have done in the past. This the business. This is our life. This what we want, regardless what you want if you fit in or you don't, well, they ran up on a I'm a rhino that never worked with me, brother. I am psychologically unemployable. I will work a job. I have to, even today, if I say it's quote, unquote, have to. I would do I gotta do to get what I gotta get. But I'm a rhino, I'm gonna I'm psychologically and terminally unemployable. I was taught by Yogananda, which is, you. One of my favorite teachers wrote Autobiography of a yoga you may have heard of yoga under and I've been his student for 15 years, and he said something very important that already knew, but he affirmed it, if you're, if you're, if you can't be subordinate to other people. Some, some of us are like that. That's not your style. Then do what you got to do until you get where you get where you got to go, be respectable who you with, take it and then move, but be working your way out of it. Yeah, but I, I've been terminally unemployable all my life. Brother, a renegade.   Michael Hingson ** 30:32 Well, but that doesn't mean that you're not useful part of the system, or trustworthy or reliable. It just means that you operate in a slightly different way than most people are used to doing.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 30:46 Well, yeah, it means this You're right. It means this You're right. It means that you look into Apple to give you something. I'm going to create my own apple. That's what it means. I'm that kind of person. We need those kind of people. If we didn't, you wouldn't have this laptop. You wouldn't have the technology you have right now. Those people were innovators, entrepreneurs like me, you I'm an entrepreneur. I'm the entrepreneur solopreneur. They want to be apreneurs, and there's not a preneurs Don't even try go to work for somebody else. Don't even try to be apreneur. Some people just don't have it. So no, it doesn't mean anything that. It means that being psychologically employable. Mean that, okay? He is IBM, he is Apple, okay? He is Tesla, he is Cadillac, he is American airline. I'm like that. Whether I achieve that level, it's irrelevant. I'm one of those people that's all. That's it.   Michael Hingson ** 31:36 So for you, who are the typical people who would be your client, who are your typical clients or your target audience today, entrepreneurs.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 31:49 I mean entrepreneurs in a real sense, those who understand sales and psychology, entertainers, athletes. Why say those people, those in network marketing and sales? Because those people traditionally understand mindset. They're coming to the mindset they they promote the books in their seminars and the reading and bringing the speakers. They're open to they're open to it, to what I have. They're ready for it. They're ready for it. That's my audience. That's my target. And I hold it on target, because people say, Well, my audience is everybody. Well, not true, not true. If you want to catch bass, you go to a bass lake. I have specific audience that I'm targeting, and I'm focused on the article that audience is open and receptive and to level I'm at. I don't teach kindergar. That's not my specialty. Okay, they gotta start too, okay. I teach those people that are in the field that want to get it, they have a glimpse of it, they want to get it now. They're ready. So with me, it's like a university level coaching. It doesn't mean you gotta, you have to, you have to have 10 years in the field. It means that you're open and receptive, to listen, to accept and to work. When I give somebody assignment, if you don't work it, don't talk to me about it, unless you have a question about it. If you didn't work it, I don't talk to you about it. I want you to. I'd rather you fail first, then come back to me, because the other side of failure is success. We got to tweak it or do something. But if you don't do the assignment I give you, let's talk about the next thing, not that we'll talk about that. When you do if you don't do it, I   Michael Hingson ** 33:17 won't talk about it, yeah, unless there's some real, substantial reason why you didn't or couldn't do it, but that's different, but that's a different story.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 33:26 Amen. I agree with you that that's that's true, brother,   Michael Hingson ** 33:30 that's always a different story, right, right? So you, at the same time, you have to earn money and survive. What are your thoughts about the whole concept of money?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 33:44 Money is a terrible master, but a wonderful servant. Yeah, money is money is necessary. Money has this place. Money is good, money is not bad, money is not evil, it's not wicked, and nothing like that. Money is neutral. Money serves you according to your level of service and how you expected to serve you, how you think about it. Money is a terrible masculine it's a wonderful servant. Money is that thing where can serve you, but it can be the one of the worst tyrants, second to sex, lust, that is the worst. But let me get back to Money. Money is a tool. Money is energy. That's why they call it currency. And it must flow. If it's not flowing, it ain't growing. If it ain't growing, you ain't knowing you feel me and that mean, that mean you ain't sowing the seed that rhymed. I just made that up, by the way. Good job. I just made that up, dude, off the top of my head, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 34:37 good job.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 34:38 This came to me. It happened to rhyme, we learning rhymes. Hickory Dickory Dock, the mouse went up the clock and all that kind of stuff. So that's what I think that's that's money. The concept of money is very fascinating, because money is the most easy thing I've ever manifested. See, money is actually easy to manifest, but people make it hard. Here's why, because they're running. After it. While you're running after it, it's right there in front of you, but you're chasing after it, and you want to knock on other people, to get with a light sheet and still to get it. Some people, some willing to con someone, to do unethical things, to get you to do it like the old commercial. What's this taste good? Like a cigarette should? Well, there's nothing good tasting about tobacco. I always   Michael Hingson ** 35:21 wondered that myself, having never smoked, but yeah, I hear you,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 35:24 yeah, yeah, but telling you that, telling you that, getting your mind that frame gets you to spend your money. And we're so money conscious. You want to get money. I want to spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend. How about respecting the money? How can I make this money circulate? How can I one give something to somebody else in a service or calls? Okay, it's very good to do that, whether you call it tithing or just giving. That doesn't matter with the percentage. It doesn't matter. Give from the heart someone else. And then find a way to circulate that money. That money is actually energy. It will, it comes back to you. It actually comes back to it circulates. You create. You create a universal energy, a Goodwill has nothing to do with religion, politics or nothing, but I just said nothing. I just said has something to do with life and the laws of the universe, albeit which works the same for everybody, for everybody. Mm, hmm.   Michael Hingson ** 36:17 Well, you clearly want to help people, and you want people to obtain results. What do you do? Or how do you how are you able to consistently help entrepreneurs and your clients and so on to achieve dynamic results and positive results? Another way of saying is, what do you do anyway? Go ahead,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 36:38 right? What do you Well, I'm a content creator. I create content. Okay? I create content. I have a course that's coming out really soon called create dynamic results, and it's a seven transformational steps to show people how to make these subtle mind shifts that become permanent. Okay? And I'm fortunate enough to be the guide through this program. In that program, what they learn to do is how to take those habits, those nagging, nagging habits. See, habits are what make us what we are. Habits. Period, you brush your teeth in the morning. It's a hat bleeding. You gotta think about you're gonna brush your teeth. You're not gonna think about it. You gotta get up and go do it. Period, in the story, you're not gonna more about it. Not gonna say maybe I don't feel like today, you gotta do it Okay. More like them do it okay. And because the habit, because that little bit happens, ingraining your brain, it's like a fluid. It's been ingrained, and it's like a track. Now, as soon as you wake up, soon as you wake up, waking up and open your eyes and get out of bed, is actually a trigger to go brush your teeth. Now it's a trigger, so you got to do it. Well, bad habits are the same way you have habits you don't want. They're the same way those habits you hear certain words or certain things that trigger anger certainly trigger hunger, certain thing will trigger lust, greed or violence or just whatever. Okay, so in order to have the habits that, that, that that that that support you, that benefits you, you have to transmute those by setting yourself on like a seven days. I'm just using seven days right now. Say, say, You tell yourself today I'm not going to get angry, period. Imma, remain calm. Now, when you say that, I guarantee you, I will guarantee you, I'll bet you $25 to a bucket of beans that you're going to get plenty opportunities to get angry that day. People going to say things. They're going to do things you're angry. Now here's the thing. The test is to remember what you said, what you said when it comes, ignore it, and then replace that with a different you keep doing that, you're going to change that habit. Eventually, it may take a year you're going to change that habit. So you've got a habit of procrastinating, not following up on your goals, your plans, not prospecting. You can change that habit by going through certain steps, by changing those grooves in the brain, okay to have that record play. One good example is that is the mother Turkey. The mother Turkey is one of the best mothers in creation. The mother Turkey love that baby, cleans that nurtures that baby. Just really, really, really, really, really, okay. And when that baby chirps, that baby chirps, that baby chirp that the turkey hearts melt. That mother Turkey heart will melt when that baby chirp, period. So now you have let me change some you have this pole cat. Pole cat is the universal enemy of a turkey. When Turkey see a pole cat, that Turkey go crazy and get crazy and want to kill. It this hard to death. Well, there's a spirit one day where they put a pole cat near the turkey, and the turkey went crazy, gonna kill it to protect his young. Well, they had a little walkie, a little radio inside of the a little device inside, the inside of stuffed turkey. That shirt like little baby birds, red Turkey chirp that Turkey. When that pole cat shirt, that Turkey was disarmed, that Turkey nurtured the phony pole cat. Cause of that chirp, nurtured it. Heard that shirt. That's what habits are. You're a certain sound, and you act like a robot. So actually, we're puppets on a string. This is getting a little deeper that. That's, in essence, what it is. So in assisting people how to change those habits and. Then how to concentrate Focus. Focus is so big in self improvement. All people great success have great focus skills, but very few people teach you how to focus. Have anyone ever taught you how to focus? Very few people have techniques like that how to focus. Then there's self analysis. When you self analysis, you analyze yourself. Then there's willpower, which is creative power. Then there's transportation and sexual energy, and then the words you speak to yourself, those six or seven things I just named, are the key and foundational to all of our success.   Michael Hingson ** 40:31 The only thing I would add to that are the words that your inner voice is saying to you, and you need to learn to listen to them.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 40:36 That's and that's what I said about that self analysis. Yeah, right, right. And that's where you come in, concentrate and meditation, yeah. And so one thing about meditation really quickly, real quick meditation people, especially a lot of religious people, think, well, I'm this or that. I'm a Christian, Muslim or Judas or Jew or Buddhist. I don't do that meditation stuff. Stop, stop, stop. Here's where knowledge becomes power when you understand and use it. When you want to get stronger arms, you can do push ups when you want to shoot. Be a better shooter in basketball, you practice the shots anything you want. You practice Okay, in order to strengthen your mind, where you have the one point of focus on where you're calm you meditation is an exercise of the mind. That's it. No matter what religion you are, be quiet and learn how to calm down, to quiet the thoughts, all distracting thoughts. Once you quiet the thoughts, and then that lake becomes clear without any ripples, and you see the pure reflects of the moon, that's gonna become calm. That's when you get some stuff done. Now you can focus on that thing with laser focus and get it done. Nothing great was ever done without laser focus, ever? There are no accidents,   Michael Hingson ** 41:46 right? Well, and also just the whole idea of clearing your mind, letting yourself calm down. It's perfectly okay to ask yourself, How do I accomplish this? The problem with most people is they won't listen for the answer, no. And whether you want to say it's God telling you your inner voice or whatever, it's really all the same thing. But the problem is, people won't listen. And then when they get the answer, they go, it can't be that simple. People don't listen to that inner voice.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 42:20 It's very powerful. I meant to the inner voice thing. I love meditation. I love doing it as once a little girl in the church, she's a Catholic, and she was she whenever, I believe the church, she'd sit there about 10 or 15 minutes every week. And so the cardinal, whoever given the service, came here and said, How you doing, little girl, when she stopped, Hi, how are you? I noticed after every service, everybody leave the chapel. Your parents leave outside too. But every Sunday, little girl, you sit here, I think she's about 12 years old, you sit here, and you keep praying. And he asked her, why may I ask? Why? Why? Why you do it like that? She said, Because. Now, watch this out of the mouth of babes, because everybody's praying to God. I want to hear what God has to say to has to say to me. Mm hmm. I want to listen. Bam. Mic drop. That's it. Mm hmm. Mic drop. That's how powerful being quiet in meditation is meditation exercising the mind. So if you say, Well, I'm a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, I'm a Baha that doesn't matter. Meditation had nothing to do with that. It has nothing to do with that. Has them do it like you said, Brother internally, who you are, your inner self. This is that still small voice. And by the way, all those religions say that, but few people understand that. They all say the same. They all said the same thing. I know because I study them. I studied the world religions. I studied Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, Kabbalah. I studied new thought. I studied that stuff. I love it, but I understood something about it that we're all actually one. We're what we're actually one,   Michael Hingson ** 43:56 viewed as the many. Do you generally find that you can get through to people who want to be your clients. Or how does that work?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 44:06 Can you repeat that, please?   Michael Hingson ** 44:07 Okay, so somebody comes to you and says, I really want to hear what you have to say. I want to learn from you. And you've talked about the fact you don't teach kindergarteners. You you teach people who are further along the process. Do you? Do you ever miss assess or find that you're not teaching the right person or they just don't want to listen to you once you get started and working with them?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 44:29 I've never had that happen. I thank God never. I'll tell you why. When people come to me, okay, people want to make money, they want to increase their sale, they want to increase their contact, they want to increase their network. They will increase their productivity by me showing them how to increase their transformative value, to enhance their performative value, to get to the results they want. Here are the results we talk about. We talk about what they want. Now see when I'm talking to you right. Now, give me the philosophy, but the coaching is very different. The floats, the culture is actually the philosophy in action with what they're doing. You. I use the language they're doing, interacting what they're doing, how their prospect, who they're talking to, the attitude they have, the ideas how to shift certain things. What goals you hitting right now? Okay, what do you do? What what's what's the top person in the company doing? What are you doing? How do you rate yourself to that? What are you doing right now? Let me show you how to increase that by 25% 50% in the next month. Let me show you how to increase that. So I'll take what they're doing and I'll remember now all what I'm saying is good, but if you can't take it to fit the people and make it practical, it's just talk. All books, all books, religious or whatever, are just dead writings. Until you make them come alive, we have to make them come alive. So I take what I'm take talking now, and I apply it to the network marketing, the sales, the people, into coaching, the mind technology, you have to apply it. So I never had that problem. I haven't I thank the Creator for that. Never had that issue. Never, never had that because anyone even hit   Michael Hingson ** 45:59 that, yeah, because you've had people that that when you accept them as a client, you've you've communicated with them, you've assessed what their needs are. They tell you what their needs are, and you come to agreement as to they're going to listen to you to deal with fulfilling those needs, right?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 46:17 You're going to follow it like in my in my course, that I'm at the part of the course creator. I'm court doing the videos right now, the intro and outro and all that. This one thing my class got to understand. When you get this course, if you don't do the work, don't talk to me about it. Now, if something come up where you can't get it done, you need a way to get it done. Let's talk. But you just didn't do it. You have not earned the right to come to me and tell me that, which is what I have to work before, right? Yeah, talk about before. So, so I'm really into getting you to move and to feel that result. See, everything is result of something, and you need to prove that to yourself. And no one can do that, but you, no one's gonna do but you, no one can do but you, no one should do but you, damn it. You should do it, but you can be guided,   Michael Hingson ** 47:07 that's right, to how to do it. But then you have to make, but you have to make the choice to do it.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 47:14 That's right, see, and I don't care if it's Warren Buffett, I'll give you example about here's what coaching is all about, and mentoring is all about it's all about human beings having two things that they want to do. They want to avoid pain and suffering and gain pleasure, reach the desire. There's only two motivators we have. There are no other motivators, no other motivators in the universe. We only have two motivators, to avoid suffering and pain and to seek happiness and feel the desire. Okay? The idea is to solve the pain puzzle so that the person, place or thing, can enjoy the pleasure principle. If I can solve I don't give a warren buffett right now. If Warren Buffett, with all his billions, would approach me right now, if he had a problem that no one could solve all his life and it gnaws at him, he won't answer to it. He's dreamed about all these years. And if he met me right now and he felt that that's the one he can solve that problem. He would hire me right now. He would hire me right now. That's right, yep. Well, it doesn't matter how much money you have. When I learned that, when that dawn upon me, game on for anybody. There are people out there that are my clients, and I know it. I don't care how what your status is. I'll give you the king of England or the pet the United States. I don't care if you the Grand Poobah. I don't care if you have a trillion dollars in the bank. If you got an issue, and I'm the one you see can solve it, you're going to pay me, and I'm going to work with you, period. That's the commitment, though, there are no boundaries, right?   Michael Hingson ** 48:39 That's That's the commitment. You are committing to do it. You're committing to help. You're committing to bring your skills to it. Bring my   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 48:47 skill set to it. I don't have to have as much money as you to do it. I ain't got to have a bigger home than you to do that. I ain't got to be Michael Jordan to help. Michael Jordan if he had the problem of pain. So I don't have to be that. Once people that coach and teach get past that. A lot of my scared, why that person can't? Oh, hold on, I might have a answer to a thing that Anthony Robbins need help with. We all need some growth and development. We all do until we reach that level of a certain level where we're there and we're just helping other people. But most of us, most of us, 99% of us or more, have pain problems, get who you are and give you a story about Joseph in the Bible. You've heard the story about Joseph in the Bible, how Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers. Okay? He sold slavery by his brothers into prison, something he didn't do. And while he was in prison, he began to be known as his philosophy and his work and his spirituality. And people would talk to him. So one guy got out, Joseph said, Please tell the king, yada ya, or whatever. The guy got out and forgot about Joseph. Then tell Well, years more, more years passed by. Another guy got out. He went and told the king, or whatever, about Joseph. I know a guy can solve your dreams. I'm paraphrasing the story. And the king asked Joseph to come out. He's, I heard you can solve my problems. And. Joseph told him how to solve his problem. Well, Joseph became a billionaire overnight. Yeah, he solved the king's problem. That's not the exact story, but you see, no. So it doesn't matter who you are or your status in life, once you get past that thinking, well, I ain't, I can't do this. I only live in No, no, no, no, no, no. They do it work. It's like, it's like, it's like, needing, getting to car accident, okay? And your stomach is you got a gas in your stomach, okay? And say you're multi billionaire, okay? Or say you the biggest athlete in the planet or the richest king in the world, you're not going to say how much money that doctor make, or nothing like that. You're going to say, Please heal me. You don't care about that. That doctor had the skill to heal you to take care, and that's you want to take care. That's all you want. Gotta say, I don't want that doctor flying so and so from so and so. You're not gonna do that. And a lot of people understand that when you have something to give, you give it. You hone your skills, you bunker down, you walk with thoughtless confidence, command, you have the self esteem, doing the ambient maybe move forward. That's why I work with entrepreneurs and I will work with people that are not on that low. Get me wrong. Now, I'm not saying I will work with people that are newbies. All depends on the newbie. If they want sales training, I'll give it to them. Yes, I'll give it to them. They want sales training. They want training on how to close, how to be better communicated. Sales are the communication daughter, a daughter of charm character, Chris man, class, and the more charm character, charisma and class you add in appropriate form, you're able to connect, communicate and close. That's seven C's, yep, sell the seven C's.   Michael Hingson ** 51:36 I counted four. Where are the other three? Charm, charm characterism   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 51:40 in class. That's four, communicate, connect and close.   Michael Hingson ** 51:44 Okay, just checking on you, because once   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 51:47 you have those four, you open to bed. Line of communication. Add some more things in there. As far as you know, psychology and persuasion tools. Now you're connecting. Once you connect, then you can close.   Michael Hingson ** 51:59 There you go. Just wanted to make sure we got to all seven.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 52:02 We got all Thank you. Thank you for holding me to that.   Michael Hingson ** 52:06 No, I hear exactly what you're saying, and it is, it is so important to do that. So tell me what you know, with all the things that you're doing, you're clearly a person who cares, what's your take on giving back and charity and so on?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 52:26 Everything, everything, everything. And I'll tell you why I say everything, everything is a result of something the universe and life is always giving me something. Mm, hmm. See, life is what I call the creator's gift to us. What we give back is our gift to the creator for being on this planet. We are creators. Giving is a natural part of your being, who you are, your power. When you're your power, you can give from the heart, okay? And when you give, believe me, it's going to come back to you anyway. Now you don't give it for it to come back. You give it because you want to service and love because you you realize that we're one giving, giving from the heart empowers you. You want to feel empowered give you want to feel empowered every time somebody get paid, give something. I don't care if it's 10% of 5% give from your heart and keep it to yourself. Yeah, much as you can. Keep it to yourself, because you spoil your own goods. Keep it to yourself and let it flow the way it's going to flow, and then you will grow, and then you'll know, yep, how it goes. That Ryan too. I just made that up. That pretty   Michael Hingson ** 53:36 well rhymes, yeah, but, but it's true. It's true. Too many people have to show off. Oh, I gave a million dollars to this charity. The problem is, you're not you shouldn't be doing it for notoriety. You should be doing it because it's the right thing to do. It's what you want to do.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 53:55 If somebody found out that's different, like Warren Buffett is one of my favorite. Warren Buffet is one of my favorites. Warren Buffett is one of the most humble giving people. His money 70 billion he gave out. It got out there because there's so much money. I bet he didn't, he didn't promote that. Okay, now I look, I look at one athlete. I won't mention a name here, always, they always say about how much he gives and how much he gives. And build this and build that. Always talk about that, about that guy, the other guy they compare him to, never opens his mouth about his giving. He gives all the time. Never opens his mouth. One guy always told me what he gives, and I said to myself, dude, that that that's taboo. This the opposite of giving. I'm not saying your heart ain't in it, but you're allowing this narrative to be there without comment on the narrative that's it's that is personal, that, in fact, giving to me is sacred. It is sacred. You're giving to help humanity, other people, my gift, my charity, which I have to do today, by the wa

Lee Eastburn is with the American Red Cross. Eastburn joined NewsTalk KZRG to discuss preparedness of all kinds including severe weather, fire, and snow-ins. Join Ted, Steve, and Lucas for the KZRG Morning Newswatch!

Ain't no rules says a dog can't play basketball. We find out if Air Bud is still king of the court. Music from https://filmmusic.io "Glitter Blast" by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/) All our social media links:  https://linktr.ee/rewatchingthemagic If you're able, please give blood. The American Red Cross: https://www.redcross.org/ Immigrant Legal Resource Center: http://www.ilrc.org Trans Life: http:/www.translife.org Reproductive rights are human rights. LGBTQ+ rights are human rights.

Matt Forbeck is all that and so much more. He grew up in Wisconsin as what he describes as a wimpy kid, too short and not overly healthy. He took to gaming at a pretty early age and has grown to be a game creator, author and award-winning storyteller.   Matt has been designing games now for over 35 years. He tells us how he believes that many of the most successful games today have stories to tell, and he loves to create some of the most successful ones. What I find most intriguing about Matt is that he clearly is absolutely totally happy in his work. For most of Matt's career he has worked for himself and continues today to be an independent freelancer.   Matt and his wife have five children, including a set of quadruplets. The quadruplets are 23 and Matt's oldest son is 28 and is following in his father's footsteps.   During our conversation we touch on interesting topics such as trust and work ethics. I know you will find this episode stimulating and worth listening to more than once.     About the Guest:   Matt Forbeck is an award-winning and New York Times-bestselling author and game designer of over thirty-five novels and countless other books and games. His projects have won a Peabody Award, a Scribe Award, and numerous ENnies and Origins Awards. He is also the president of the Diana Jones Award Foundation, which celebrates excellence in gaming.    Matt has made a living full-time on games and fiction since 1989, when he graduated from the Residential College at the University of Michigan with a degree in Creative Writing. With the exception of a four-year stint as the president of Pinnacle Entertainment Group and a year and a half as the director of the adventure games division of Human Head Studios, he has spent his career as an independent freelancer.   Matt has designed collectible card games, roleplaying games, miniatures games, board games, interactive fiction, interactive audiobooks, games for museum installations, and logic systems for toys. He has directed voiceover work and written short fiction, comic books, novels, screenplays, and video game scripts and stories. His work has been translated into at least 15 languages.   His latest work includes the Marvel Multiverse Role-Playing Game Core Rulebook, the Spider-Verse Expansion, Monster Academy (novels and board game), the Shotguns & Sorcery 5E Sourcebook based on his novels, and the Minecraft: Roll for Adventure game books. He is the father of five, including a set of quadruplets. He lives in Beloit, Wisconsin, with his wife and a rotating cast of college-age children. For more about him and his work, visit Forbeck.com.   Ways to connect with Matt:   Twitter: https://twitter.com/mforbeck Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/forbeck Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/forbeck.com Threads: https://www.threads.net/@mforbeck Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mforbeck/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/forbeck/ Website: https://www.forbeck.com/     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset today. We get to play games. Well, not really, but we'll try. Our guest is Matt Forbeck, who is an award winning author. He is a game designer and all sorts of other kinds of things that I'm sure he's going to tell us about, and we actually just before we started the the episode, we were talking about how one might explore making more games accessible for blind and persons with other disabilities. It's, it's a challenge, and there, there are a lot of tricks. But anyway, Matt, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Matt Forbeck ** 02:02 Well, thank you, Michael for inviting me and having me on. I appreciate it.   Speaker 1 ** 02:06 I think we're going to have a lot of fun, and I think it'll work out really well. I'm I am sure of that. So why don't we start just out of curiosity, why don't you tell us kind of about the early Matt, growing up?   Matt Forbeck ** 02:18 Uh, well, I grew up. I was born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I grew up in a little town called Beloit, Wisconsin, which actually live in now, despite having moved away for 13 years at one point, and I had terrible asthma, I was a sick and short kid, and with the advent of medication, I finally started to be healthy when I was around nine, and Part of that, I started getting into playing games, right? Because when you're sick, you do a lot of sitting around rather than running around. So I did a lot of reading and playing games and things like that. I happen to grow up in the part of the world where Dungeons and Dragons was invented, which is in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, about 30 miles from where I live. And because of that I was I started going to conventions and playing games and such, when I was about 12 or 13 years old. I started doing it when I was a little bit older. I started doing it professionally, and started doing it when I was in college. And amazingly enough, even to my own astonishment, I've made a career out of it.   Speaker 1 ** 03:17 Where did you go to college? I went to the University   Matt Forbeck ** 03:21 of Michigan over in Ann Arbor. I had a great time there. There's a wonderful little college, Beloit College, in my hometown here, and most of my family has gone to UW Milwaukee over the years. My parents met at Marquette in Milwaukee, but I wanted to get the heck out of the area, so I went to Michigan, and then found myself coming back as soon as we started having   Speaker 1 ** 03:42 kids well, and of course, I would presume that when you were at the University of Michigan, you rooted for them and against Ohio State. That was   Matt Forbeck ** 03:50 kind of, you know, if you did it the other way around, they back out of town. So, yeah, I was always kind of astonished, though, because having grown up in Wisconsin, where every sports team was a losing team when I was growing up, including the Packers, for decades. You know, we were just happy to be playing. They were more excuse to have beers than they were to cheer on teams. And I went to Michigan where they were, they were angry if the team wasn't up by two touchdowns. You know, at any point, I'm like, You guys are silly. This is we're here for fun.   Speaker 1 ** 04:17 But it is amazing how seriously some people take sports. I remember being in New Zealand helping the Royal New Zealand Foundation for the Blind. Well now 22 years ago, it's 2003 and the America's Cup had just finished before we got there, and in America beat New Zealand, and the people in New Zealand were just irate. They were complaining that the government didn't put enough money into the design of the boat and helping with the with the yacht and all that. It was just amazing how seriously people take it, yeah,   Matt Forbeck ** 04:58 once, I mean, it becomes a part of your. Identity in a lot of ways, right for many people, and I've never had to worry about that too much. I've got other things on my mind, but there you go.   Speaker 1 ** 05:08 Well, I do like it when the Dodgers win, and my wife did her graduate work at USC, and so I like it when the Trojans win, but it's not the end of the world, and you do need to keep it in perspective. I I do wish more people would I know once I delivered a speech in brether County, Kentucky, and I was told that when I started the speech had to end no later than preferably exactly at 6:30pm not a minute later, because it was the night of the NCAA Basketball Championship, and the Kentucky Wildcats were in the championship, and at 630 everyone was going to get up and leave and go home to watch the game. So I ended at 630 and literally, by 631 I timed it. The gym was empty and it was full to start with.   Matt Forbeck ** 06:02 People were probably, you know, counting down on their watches, just to make sure, right?   Speaker 1 ** 06:06 Oh, I'm sure they were. What do you do? It's, it is kind of fun. Well, so why did you decide to get started in games? What? What? What attracted to you, to it as a young person, much less later on?   Matt Forbeck ** 06:21 Well, I was, yeah, I was an awkward kid, kind of nerdy and, you know, glasses and asthma and all that kind of stuff. And games were the kind of thing where, if you didn't know how to interact with people, you could sit down at a table across them and you could practice. You can say, okay, we're all here. We've got this kind of a magic circle around us where we've agreed to take this one silly activity seriously for a short period of time, right? And it may be that you're having fun during that activity, but you know, there's, there's no reason that rolling dice or moving things around on a table should be taken seriously. It's all just for fun, right? But for that moment, you actually just like Las Vegas Exactly, right? When there's money on the line, it's different, but if you're just doing it for grins. You know, it was a good way for me to learn how to interact with people of all sorts and of different ages. And I really enjoyed playing the games, and I really wanted to be a writer, too. And a lot of these things interacted with story at a very basic level. So breaking in as a writer is tough, but it turned out breaking as a game designer, wasn't nearly his stuff, so I started out over there instead, because it was a very young field at the time, right? D and D is now 50 years old, so I've been doing this 35 years, which means I started around professionally and even doing it before that, I started in the period when the game and that industry were only like 10 or 15 years old, so yeah, weren't quite as much competition in those   Speaker 1 ** 07:43 days. I remember some of the early games that I did play, that I could play, were DOS based games, adventure. You're familiar with adventure? Yeah, oh, yeah. Then later, Zork and all that. And I still think those are fun games. And I the reason I like a lot of those kinds of games is they really make you think, which I think most games do, even though the video even the video games and so on, they they help your or can help your reactions, but they're designed by people who do try to make you think,   Matt Forbeck ** 08:15 yeah. I mean, we basically are designing puzzles for people to solve, even if they're story puzzles or graphic puzzles or sound puzzles or whatever, you know, even spatial puzzles. There the idea is to give somebody something fun that is intriguing to play with, then you end up coming with story and after that, because after a while, even the most most exciting mechanics get dull, right? I mean, you start out shooting spaceships, but you can only shoot spaceships for so long, or you start out playing Tetris, and you only put shapes together for so long before it doesn't mean anything that then you start adding in story to give people a reason to keep playing right and a reason to keep going through these things. And I've written a lot of video games over the years, basically with that kind of a philosophy, is give people nuggets of story, give them a plot to work their way through, and reward them for getting through different stages, and they will pretty much follow you through anything. It's amazing.   Michael Hingson ** 09:09 Is that true Dungeons and Dragons too?   Matt Forbeck ** 09:13 It is. All of the stories are less structured there. If you're doing a video game, you know you the team has a lot of control over you. Give the player a limited amount of control to do things, but if you're playing around a table with people, it's more of a cooperative kind of experience, where we're all kind of coming up with a story, the narrator or the Game Master, the Dungeon Master, sets the stage for everything, but then the players have a lot of leeway doing that, and they will always screw things up for you, too. No matter what you think is going to happen, the players will do something different, because they're individuals, and they're all amazing people. That's actually to me, one of the fun things about doing tabletop games is that, you know, the computer can only react in a limited number of ways, whereas a human narrator and actually change things quite drastically and roll. With whatever people come up with, and that makes it tremendous fun.   Speaker 1 ** 10:04 Do you think AI is going to enter into all that and maybe improve some of the   Matt Forbeck ** 10:09 old stuff? It's going to add your end to it, whether it's an ad, it's going to approve it as a large question. Yeah. So I've been ranting about AI quite a bit lately with my friends and family. But, you know, I think the problem with AI, it can be very helpful a lot of ways, but I think it's being oversold. And I think it's especially when it's being oversold for thing, for ways for people to replace writers and creative thinking, Yeah, you know, you're taking the fun out of everything. I mean, the one thing I like to say is if, if you can't be bothered to write this thing that you want to communicate to me, I'm not sure why I should be bothered to read this thing well.   Speaker 1 ** 10:48 And I think that AI will will evolve in whatever way it does. But the fact of the matter is, So do people. And I think that, in fact, people are always going to be necessary to make the process really work? AI can only do and computers can only do so much. I mean, even Ray Kurzweil talks about the singularity when people and computer brains are married, but that still means that you're going to have the human element. So it's not all going to be the computer. And I'm not ready to totally buy into to what Ray says. And I used to work for Ray, so I mean, I know Ray Well, but, but the but the bottom line is, I think that, in fact, people are always going to be able to be kind of the, the mainstay of it, as long as we allow that, if we, if we give AI too much power, then over time, it'll take more power, and that's a problem, but that's up to us to deal with?   Matt Forbeck ** 11:41 No, I totally agree with that. I just think right now, there's a very large faction of people who it's in their economic interest to oversell these things. You know, people are making chips. They're building server farms. A lot of them are being transferred from people are doing blockchain just a few years ago, and they see it as the hot new thing. The difference is that AI actually has a lot of good uses. There's some amazing things will come out of llms and such. But I again, people are over the people are selling this to us. Are often over promising things, right?   Speaker 1 ** 12:11 Yeah, well, they're not only over promising but they're they're really misdirecting people. But the other side of it is that, that, in fact, AI as a concept and as a technology is here, and we have control over how we use it. I've said a couple times on this this podcast, and I've said to others, I remember when I first started hearing about AI, I heard about the the fact that teachers were bemoaning the pack, that kids were writing their papers just using AI and turning them in, and it wasn't always easy to tell whether it was something that was written by AI or was written by the student. And I come from a little bit different view than I think a lot of people do. And my view basically is, let the kids write it if with AI, if that's what they're going to do, but then what the teacher needs to do is to take one period, for example, and give every student in that class the opportunity to come up and defend whatever paper they have. And the real question is, can they defend the paper? Which means, have they really learned the subject, or are they just relying on AI,   Matt Forbeck ** 13:18 yeah, I agree with that. I think the trouble is, a lot of people, children, you know, who are developing their abilities and their morals about this stuff, they use it as just a way to complete the assignment, right? And many of them don't even read what they turn in, right, right? Just know that they've got something here that will so again, if you can't be bothered to read the thing that you manufactured, you're not learning anything about it,   Speaker 1 ** 13:39 which is why, if you are forced to defend it, it's going to become pretty obvious pretty fast, whether you really know it or not. Now, I've used AI on a number of occasions in various ways, but I use it to maybe give me ideas or prepare something that I then modify and shape. And I may even interact with AI a couple of times, but I'm definitely involved with the process all the way down the line, because it still has to be something that I'm responsible for.   Matt Forbeck ** 14:09 I agree. I mean, the whole point of doing these things is for people to connect with each other, right? I want to learn about the ideas you have in your head. I want to see how they jive with ones in my head. But if I'm just getting something that's being spit out by a machine and not you, and not being curated by you at any point, that doesn't seem very useful, right? So if you're the more involved people are in it, the more useful it is.   Speaker 1 ** 14:31 Well, I agree, and you know, I think again, it's a tool, and we have to decide how the tool is going to be used, which is always the way it ought to be. Right?   Matt Forbeck ** 14:42 Exactly, although sometimes it's large corporations deciding,   Speaker 1 ** 14:45 yeah, well, there's that too. Well, individuals,   Matt Forbeck ** 14:49 we get to make our own choices. Though you're right,   Speaker 1 ** 14:51 yes, and should Well, so, so when did you start bringing writing into what you. Did, and make that a really significant part of what you did?   Matt Forbeck ** 15:03 Well, pretty early on, I mean, I started doing one of the first things I did was a gaming zine, which was basically just a print magazine that was like, you know, 32 pages, black and white, about the different tabletop games. So we were writing those in the days, design and writing are very closely linked when it comes to tabletop games and even in video games. The trick of course is that designing a game and writing the rules are actually two separate sets of skills. So one of the first professional gig I ever had during writing was in games was some friends of mine had designed a game for a company called Mayfair games, which went on to do sellers of contain, which is a big, uh, entry level game, and but they needed somebody to write the rules, so they called me over, showed me how to play the game. I took notes and I I wrote it down in an easy to understand, clear way that people had just picked up the box. Could then pick it up and teach themselves how to play, right? So that was early on how I did it. But the neat thing about that is it also taught me to think about game design. I'm like, when I work on games, I think about, who is this game going to be for, and how are we going to teach it to them? Because if they can't learn the game, there's no point of the game at all, right?   Speaker 1 ** 16:18 And and so I'm right? I'm a firm believer that a lot of technical writers don't do a very good job of technical writing, and they write way over people's heads. I remember the first time I had to write, well, actually, I mentioned I worked for Kurzweil. I was involved with a project where Ray Kurzweil had developed his original omniprent optical character recognition system. And I and the National Federation of the Blind created with him a project to put machines around the country so that blind people could use them and give back to Ray by the time we were all done, recommendations as to what needed to go in the final first production model of the machine. So I had to write a training manual to teach people how to use it. And I wrote this manual, and I was always of the opinion that it had to be pretty readable and usable by people who didn't have a lot of technical knowledge. So I wrote the manual, gave it to somebody to read, and said, Follow the directions and and work with the machine and all that. And they did, and I was in another room, and they were playing with it for a couple of hours, and they came in and they said, I'm having a problem. I can't figure out how to turn off the machine. And it turns out that I had forgotten to put in the instruction to turn off the machine. And it wasn't totally trivial. There were steps you had to go through. It was a Data General Nova two computer, and you had to turn it off the right way and the whole system off the appropriate way, or you could, could mess everything up. So there was a process to doing it. So I wrote it in, and it was fine. But, you know, I've always been a believer that the textbooks are way too boring. Having a master's degree in physics, I am of the opinion that physics textbook writers, who are usually pretty famous and knowledgeable scientists, ought to include with all the text and the technical stuff they want to put in, they should put in stories about what they did in you bring people in, draw them into the whole thing, rather than just spewing out a bunch of technical facts.   Matt Forbeck ** 18:23 No, I agree. My my first calculus professor was a guy who actually explained how Newton and Leipzig actually came up with calculus, and then he would, you know, draw everything on the board and turn around say, and isn't that amazing? And you were, like, just absolutely enamored with the idea of how they had done these things, right? Yeah. And what you're doing there, when you, when you, when you give the instructions to somebody and say, try this out. That's a very big part of gaming, actually, because what we do this thing called play testing, where we take something before it's ready to be shown to the public, and we give it to other people and say, try this out. See how it works. Let me know when you're starting out of your first playing you play with like your family and friends and people will be brutal with you and give you hints about how you can improve things. But then, even when you get to the rules you're you send those out cold to people, or, you know, if you're a big company, you watch them through a two way mirror or one way mirror, and say, Hey, let's see how they react to everything. And then you take notes, and you try to make it better every time you go through. And when I'm teaching people to play games at conventions, for instance, I will often say to them, please ask questions if you don't understand anything, that doesn't mean you're dumb. Means I didn't explain it well enough, right? And my job as a person writing these rules is to explain it as well as I humanly can so it can't be misconstrued or misinterpreted. Now that doesn't mean you can correct everything. Somebody's always got like, Oh, I missed that sentence, you know, whatever. But you do that over and over so you can try to make it as clear and concise as possible, yeah.   Speaker 1 ** 19:52 Well, you have somewhat of a built in group of people to help if you let your kids get involved. Involved. So how old are your kids?   Matt Forbeck ** 20:03 My eldest is 26 he'll be 27 in January. Marty is a game designer, actually works with me on the marble tabletop role playing game, and we have a new book coming out, game book for Minecraft, called Minecraft role for adventure, that's coming out on July 7, I think, and the rest of the kids are 23 we have 423 year olds instead of quadruplets, one of whom is actually going into game design as well, and the other says two are still in college, and one has moved off to the work in the woods. He's a very woodsy boy. Likes to do environmental education with people.   Speaker 1 ** 20:39 Wow. Well, see, but you, but you still have a good group of potential game designers or game critics anyway.   Matt Forbeck ** 20:47 Oh, we all play games together. We have a great time. We do weekly game nights here. Sometimes they're movie nights, sometimes they're just pizza nights, but we shoot for game and pizza   Speaker 1 ** 20:56 if we get lucky and your wife goes along with all this too.   Matt Forbeck ** 21:00 She does. She doesn't go to the game conventions and stuff as much, and she's not as hardcore of a gamer, but she likes hanging out with the kids and doing everything with us. We have a great time.   Speaker 1 ** 21:10 That's that's pretty cool. Well, you, you've got, you've got to build an audience of some sorts, and that's neat that a couple of them are involved in it as well. So they really like what dad does, yeah,   Matt Forbeck ** 21:23 yeah. We, I started taking them each to conventions, which are, you know, large gatherings gamers in real life. The biggest one is Gen Con, which happens in Indianapolis in August. And last year, I think, we had 72,000 people show up. And I started taking the kids when they were 10 years old, and my wife would come up with them then. And, you know, 10 years old is a lot. 72,000 people is a lot for a 10 year old. So she can mention one day and then to a park the next day, you know, decompress a lot, and then come back on Saturday and then leave on Sunday or whatever, so that we didn't have them too over stimulated. But they really grown to love it. I mean, it's part of our annual family traditions in the summer, is to go do these conventions and play lots of games with each other and meet new people too well.   Speaker 1 ** 22:08 And I like the way you put it. The games are really puzzles, which they are, and it's and it's fun. If people would approach it that way, no matter what the game is, they're, they're aspects of puzzles involved in most everything that has to do with the game, and that's what makes it so fun.   Matt Forbeck ** 22:25 Exactly, no. The interesting thing is, when you're playing with other people, the other people are changing the puzzles from their end that you have to solve on your end. And sometimes the puzzle is, how do I beat this person, or how do I defeat their strategy, or how do I make an alliance with somebody else so we can win? And it's really always very intriguing. There's so many different types of games. There's nowadays, there's like something like 50 to 100 new board games that come out and tabletop games every month, right? It's just like a fire hose. It's almost like, when I was starting out as a novelist, I would go into Barnes and Noble or borders and go, Oh my gosh, look at all these books. And now I do the same thing about games. It's just, it's incredible. Nobody, no one person, could keep up with all of them.   Speaker 1 ** 23:06 Yeah, yeah, yeah, way too much. I would love to explore playing more video games, but I don't. I don't own a lot of the technology, although I'm sure that there are any number of them that can be played on a computer, but we'll have to really explore and see if we can find some. I know there are some that are accessible for like blind people with screen readers. I know that some people have written a few, which is kind of cool. Yeah.   Matt Forbeck ** 23:36 And Xbox has got a new controller out that's meant to be accessible to large amount of people. I'm not sure, all the different aspects of it, but that's done pretty well, too   Speaker 1 ** 23:44 well. And again, it comes down to making it a priority to put all of that stuff in. It's not like it's magic to do. It's just that people don't know how to do it. But I also think something else, which is, if you really make the products more usable, let's say by blind people with screen readers. You may be especially if it's well promoted, surprised. I'm not you necessarily, but people might well be surprised as to how many others might take advantage of it so that they don't necessarily have to look at the screen, or that you're forced to listen as well as look in order to figure out what's going on or take actions.   Matt Forbeck ** 24:29 No, definitely true. It's, you know, people audio books are a massive thing nowadays. Games tend to fall further behind that way, but it's become this incredible thing that obviously, blind people get a great use out of but my wife is addicted to audio books now. She actually does more of those than she does reading. I mean, I technically think they're both reading. It's just one's done with yours and one's done with your eyes.   Speaker 1 ** 24:51 Yeah, there's but there's some stuff, whether you're using your eyes or your fingers and reading braille, there's something about reading a book that way that's. Even so a little bit different than listening to it. Yeah, and there's you're drawn in in some ways, in terms of actually reading that you're not necessarily as drawn into when you're when you're listening to it, but still, really good audio book readers can help draw you in, which is important, too,   Matt Forbeck ** 25:19 very much. So yeah, I think the main difference for reading, whether it's, you know, again, through Braille or through traditional print, is that you can stop. You can do it at your own pace. You can go back and look at things very easily, or read or check things, read things very easily. That you know, if you're reading, if you're doing an audio book, it just goes on and it's straight on, boom, boom, boom, pace. You can say, Wait, I'm going to put this down here. What was that thing? I remember back there? It was like three pages back, but it's really important, let me go check that right.   Speaker 1 ** 25:50 There are some technologies that allow blind people and low vision people and others, like people with dyslexia to use an audio book and actually be able to navigate two different sections of it. But it's not something that is generally available to the whole world, at least to the level that it is for blind people. But I can, I can use readers that are made to be able to accept the different formats and go back and look at pages, go back and look at headings, and even create bookmarks to bookmark things like you would normally by using a pen or a pencil or something like that. So there are ways to do some of that. So again, the technology is making strides.   Matt Forbeck ** 26:37 That's fantastic. Actually, it's wonderful. Just, yeah, it's great. I actually, you know, I lost half the vision of my right eye during back through an autoimmune disease about 13 years ago, and I've always had poor vision. So I'm a big fan of any kind of way to make things easier,   Speaker 1 ** 26:54 like that. Well, there, there are things that that are available. It's pretty amazing. A guy named George curser. Curser created a lot of it years ago, and it's called the DAISY format. And the whole idea behind it is that you can actually create a book. In addition to the audio tracks, there are XML files that literally give you the ability to move and navigate around the book, depending on how it's created, as final level as you choose.   Matt Forbeck ** 27:25 Oh, that's That's amazing. That's fantastic. I'm actually really glad to hear that.   Speaker 1 ** 27:28 So, yeah, it is kind of fun. So there's a lot of technology that's that's doing a lot of different sorts of things and and it helps. But um, so for you, in terms of dealing with, with the games, you've, you've written games, but you've, you've actually written some novels as well, right?   Matt Forbeck ** 27:50 Yeah, I've got like 30, it depends on how you count a novel, right? Okay, like some of my books are to pick a path books, right? Choose Your Own Adventure type stuff. So, but I've got 35 traditional novels written or more, I guess, now, I lost track a while ago, and probably another dozen of these interactive fiction books as well. So, and I like doing those. I've also written things like Marvel encyclopedias and Avengers encyclopedias and all sorts of different pop culture books. And, you know, I like playing in different worlds. I like writing science fiction, fantasy, even modern stuff. And most of it, for me comes down to telling stories, right? If you like to tell stories, you can tell stories through a game or book or audio play or a TV show or a comic, or I've done, you know, interactive museum, games and displays, things like that. The main thing is really a story. I mean, if you're comfortable sitting down at a bar and having a drink with somebody, doesn't have to be alcohol, just sitting down and telling stories with each other for fun. That's where the core of it all is really   Speaker 1 ** 28:58 right. Tell me about interactive fiction book.   Matt Forbeck ** 29:01 Sure, a lot of these are basically just done, like flow charts, kind of like the original Zork and adventure that you were talking about where you I actually, I was just last year, I brought rose Estes, who's the inventor of the endless quest books, which were a cross between Dungeons and Dragons, and choose your own adventure books. She would write the whole thing out page by page on a typewriter, and then, in order to shuffle the pages around so that people wouldn't just read straight through them, she'd throw them all up in the air and then just put them back in whatever order they happen to be. But essentially, you read a section of a book, you get to the end, and it gives you a choice. Would you like to go this way or that way? Would you like to go beat up this goblin? Or would you like to make friends with this warrior over here? If you want to do one of these things, go do page xx, right? Got it. So then you turn to that page and you go, boom, some, actually, some of the endless quest books I know were turned into audio books, right? And I actually, I. Um, oddly, have written a couple Dungeons and Dragons, interactive books, audio books that have only been released in French, right? Because there's a company called Looney l, u n, i, i that has this little handheld device that's for children, that has an A and a B button and a volume button. And you, you know, you get to the point that says, if you want to do this, push a, if you want to do that, push B, and the kids can go through these interactive stories and and, you know, there's ones for clue and Dungeons and Dragons and all sorts of other licenses, and some original stories too. But that way there's usually, like, you know, it depends on the story, but sometimes there's, like, 10 to 20 different endings. A lot of them are like, Oh no, you've been killed. Go back to where you started, right? And if you're lucky, the longer ones are, the more fun ones. And you get to, you know, save the kingdom and rescue the people and make good friends and all that good stuff,   Michael Hingson ** 30:59 yeah, and maybe fall in love with the princess or Prince.   Matt Forbeck ** 31:02 Yeah, exactly right. It all depends on the genre and what you're working in. But the idea is to give people some some choices over how they want the story to go. You're like, Well, do you want to investigate this dark, cold closet over here, or would you rather go running outside and playing around? And some of them can seem like very innocent choices, and other ones are like, well, uh, 10 ton weight just fell on. You go back to the last thing.   Speaker 1 ** 31:23 So that dark hole closet can be a good thing or a bad thing,   Matt Forbeck ** 31:28 exactly. And the trick is to make the deaths the bad endings, actually just as entertaining as anything else, right? And then people go, Well, I got beat, and I gotta go back and try that again. So yeah, if they just get the good ending all the way through, they often won't go back and look at all the terrible ones. So it's fun to trick them sometimes and have them go into terrible spots. And I like to put this one page in books too that sometimes says, How did you get here? You've been cheating there. This book, this page, is actually not led to from any other part of the book. You're just flipping   Speaker 1 ** 31:59 through. Cheater, cheater book, do what you   Matt Forbeck ** 32:04 want, but if you want to play it the right way, go back.   Speaker 1 ** 32:07 Kid, if you want to play the game. Yeah, exactly. On the other hand, some people are nosy.   Matt Forbeck ** 32:15 You know, I was always a kid who would poke around and wanted to see how things were, so I'm sure I would have found that myself but absolutely related, you know,   Speaker 1 ** 32:23 yeah, I had a general science teacher who brought in a test one day, and he gave it to everyone. And so he came over to me because it was, it was a printed test. He said, Well, I'm not going to give you the test, because the first thing it says is, read all the instructions, read, read the test through before you pass it, before you take it. And he said, most people won't do that. And he said, I know you would. And the last question on the test is answer, only question one.   Matt Forbeck ** 32:55 That's great. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 32:57 that was cute. And he said, I know that. I that there's no way you would, would would fall for that, because you would say, Okay, let's read the instructions and then read the whole test. That's what it said. And the instruction were, just read the whole test before you start. And people won't do that.   Matt Forbeck ** 33:13 No, they'll go through, take the whole thing. They get there and go, oh, did I get there? Was a, there's a game publisher. I think it was Steve Jackson Games, when they were looking for people, write for them, or design stuff for them, or submit stuff to them, would have something toward the end of the instructions that would say, put like a the letter seven, or put seven a on page one right, and that way they would know if you had read the instructions, if you hadn't bothered to Read the instructions, they wouldn't bother reading anything else.   Speaker 1 ** 33:42 Yeah, which is fair, because the a little harsh, well, but, but, you know, we often don't learn enough to pay attention to details. I know that when I was taking physics in college, that was stressed so often it isn't enough to get the numbers right. If you don't get the units right as well. Then you're, you're not really paying attention to the details. And paying attention to the details is so important.   Matt Forbeck ** 34:07 That's how they crash from those Mars rovers, wasn't it? They somebody messed up the units, but going back and forth between metric and, yeah, and Imperial and, well, you know, it cost somebody a lot of money at one point. Yeah. Yeah. What do you   Speaker 1 ** 34:21 this is kind of the way it goes. Well, tell me, yeah. Well, they do matter, no matter what people think, sometimes they do matter. Well, tell me about the Diana Jones award. First of all, of course, the logical question for many people is, who is Diana Jones? Yeah, Diana Jones doesn't exist, right? That's There you go. She's part game somewhere? No, no, it doesn't be in a game somewhere.   Matt Forbeck ** 34:43 Then now there's actually an author named Diana Wynne Jones, who's written some amazing fantasy stories, including Howell's Moving Castle, which has turned into a wonderful anime movie, but it has nothing to do with her or any other person. Because originally, the Diana Jones award came about. Because a friend of mine, James Wallace, had somehow stumbled across a trophy that fell into his hands, and it was a pub trivia trophy that used to be used between two different gaming companies in the UK, and one of those was TSR, UK, the United Kingdom department. And at one point, the company had laid off everybody in that division just say, Okay, we're closing it all down. So the guys went and burned a lot of the stuff that they had, including a copy of the Indiana Jones role playing game, and the only part of the logo that was left said Diana Jones. And for some reason, they put this in a in a fiberglass or Plexiglas pyramid, put it on a base, a wooden base, and it said the Diana Jones award trophy, right? And this was the trophy that they used they passed back and forth as a joke for their pub trivia contest. Fell into James's hands, and he decided, You know what, we're going to give this out for the most excellent thing in gaming every year. And we've now done this. This will be 25 years this summer. We do it at the Wednesday night before Gen Con, which starts on Thursday, usually at the end of July or early August. And as part of that, actually, about five years ago, we started, one of the guys suggested we should do something called the emerging designers program. So we actually became a 501, c3, so we could take donations. And now we take four designers every year, fly them in from wherever they happen to be in the world, and put them up in a hotel, give them a badge the show, introduce them to everybody, give them an honorarium so they can afford to skip work for a week and try to help launch their careers. I mean, these are people that are in the first three years of their design careers, and we try to work mostly with marginalized or et cetera, people who need a little bit more representation in the industry too. Although we can select anybody, and it's been really well received, it's been amazing. And there's a group called the bundle of holding which sells tabletop role playing game PDFs, and they've donated 10s of 1000s of dollars every year for us to be able to do this. And it's kind of funny, because I never thought I'd be end up running a nonprofit, but here I'm just the guy who writes checks to the different to the emerging designer program. Folks are much more tied into that community that I am. But one of the real reasons I wanted to do something like that or be involved with it, because if you wander around with these conventions and you notice that it starts getting very gray after a while, right? It's you're like, oh, there's no new people coming in. It's all older people. I we didn't I didn't want us to all end up as like the Grandpa, grandpa doing the HO model railroad stuff in the basement, right? This dying hobby that only people in their 60s and 70s care about. So bringing in fresh people, fresh voices, I think, is very important, and hopefully we're doing some good with that. It's been a lot of fun either way.   Speaker 1 ** 37:59 Well, I have you had some success with it? Yeah, we've   Matt Forbeck ** 38:02 had, well, let's see. I think we've got like 14 people. We've brought in some have already gone on to do some amazing things. I mean, it's only been a few years, so it's hard to tell if they're gonna be legends in their time, but again, having them as models for other people to look at and say, Oh, maybe I could do that. That's been a great thing. The other well, coincidentally, Dungeons and Dragons is having its best 10 year streak in its history right now, and probably is the best selling it's ever been. So coinciding with that, we've seen a lot more diversity and a lot more people showing up to these wonderful conventions and playing these kinds of games. There's also been an advent of this thing called actual play, which is the biggest one, is a group called Critical Role, which is a whole bunch of voice actors who do different cartoons and video games and such, and they play D and D with each other, and then they record the games, and they produce them on YouTube and for podcasts. And these guys are amazing. There's a couple of other ones too, like dimension 20 and glass cannon, the critical role guys actually sold out a live performance at Wembley Arena last summer. Wow. And dimension. Dimension 20 sold out Madison Square Garden. I'm like, if you'd have told me 20 years ago that you know you could sell out an entire rock stadium to have people watch you play Dungeons and Dragons, I would have laughed. I mean, there's no way it would have been possible. But now, you know, people are very much interested in this. It's kind of wild, and it's, it's fun to be a part of that. At some level,   Speaker 1 ** 39:31 how does the audience get drawn in to something like that? Because they are watching it, but there must be something that draws them in.   Matt Forbeck ** 39:39 Yeah, part of it is that you have some really skilled some actors are very funny, very traumatic and very skilled at improvisation, right? So the the dungeon master or Game Master will sit there and present them with an idea or whatever. They come up each with their own characters. They put them in wonderful, strong voices. They kind of inhabit the roles in a way that an actor. A really top level actor would, as opposed to just, you know, me sitting around a table with my friends. And because of that, they become compelling, right? My Marty and my his wife and I were actually at a convention in Columbus, Ohio last weekend, and this group called the McElroy family, actually, they do my brother, my brother and me, which is a hit podcast, but they also do an actual play podcast called The Adventure zone, where they just play different games. And they are so funny. These guys are just some of the best comedians you'll ever hear. And so them playing, they actually played our Marvel game for a five game session, or a five podcast session, or whatever, and it was just stunningly fun to listen to. People are really talented mess around with something that we built right it's very edifying to see people enjoying something that you worked on.   Speaker 1 ** 40:51 Do you find that the audiences get drawn in and they're actually sort of playing the game along, or as well? And may disagree with what some of the choices are that people make?   Matt Forbeck ** 41:02 Oh, sure. But I mean, if the choices are made from a point of the character that's been expressed, that people are following along and they they already like the character, they might go, Oh, those mean, you know that guy, there are some characters they love to hate. There are some people they're they're angry at whatever, but they always really appreciate the actors. I mean, the actors have become celebrities in their own right. They've they sell millions of dollars for the comic books and animated TV shows and all these amazing things affiliated with their actual play stuff. And it's, I think it, part of it is because, it's because it makes the games more accessible. Some people are intimidated by these games. So it's not really, you know, from a from a physical disability kind of point. It's more of a it makes it more accessible for people to be nervous, to try these things on their own, or don't really quite get how they work. They can just sit down and pop up YouTube or their podcast program and listen into people doing a really good job at it. The unfortunate problem is that the converse of that is, when you're watching somebody do that good of a job at it, it's actually hard to live up to that right. Most people who play these games are just having fun with their friends around a table. They're not performing for, you know, 10s of 1000s, if not hundreds of 1000s of people. So there's a different level of investments, really, at that point, and some people have been known to be cowed by that, by that, or daunted by that.   Speaker 1 ** 42:28 You work on a lot of different things. I gather at the same time. What do you what do you think about that? How do you like working on a lot of different projects? Or do you, do you more focus on one thing, but you've got several things going on, so you'll work on something for one day, then you'll work on something else. Or how do you how do you do it all?   Matt Forbeck ** 42:47 That's a good question. I would love to just focus on one thing at a time. Now, you know the trouble is, I'm a freelancer, right? I don't set my I don't always get to say what I want to work on. I haven't had to look for work for over a decade, though, which has been great. People just come to me with interesting things. The trouble is that when you're a freelancer, people come in and say, Hey, let's work on this. I'm like, Yeah, tell me when you're ready to start. And you do that with like, 10 different people, and they don't always line up in sequence properly, right? Yeah? Sometimes somebody comes up and says, I need this now. And I'm like, Yeah, but I'm in the middle of this other thing right now, so I need to not sleep for another week, and I need to try to figure out how I'm going to put this in between other things I'm working on. And I have noticed that after I finish a project, it takes me about a day or three to just jump track. So if I really need to, I can do little bits here and there, but to just fully get my brain wrapped around everything I'm doing for a very complex project, takes me a day or three to say, Okay, now I'm ready to start this next thing and really devote myself to it. Otherwise, it's more juggling right now, having had all those kids, probably has prepared me to juggle. So I'm used to having short attention span theater going on in my head at all times, because I have to jump back and forth between things. But it is. It's a challenge, and it's a skill that you develop over time where you're like, Okay, I can put this one away here and work on this one here for a little while. Like today, yeah, I knew I was going to talk to you, Michael. So I actually had lined up another podcast that a friend of mine wanted to do with me. I said, Let's do them on the same day. This way I'm not interrupting my workflow so much, right? Makes sense? You know, try to gang those all together and the other little fiddly bits I need to do for administration on a day. Then I'm like, Okay, this is not a day off. It's just a day off from that kind of work. It's a day I'm focusing on this aspect of what I do.   Speaker 1 ** 44:39 But that's a actually brings up an interesting point. Do you ever take a day off or do what do you do when you're when you deciding that you don't want to do gaming for a while?   Matt Forbeck ** 44:49 Yeah, I actually kind of terrible. But you know, you know, my wife will often drag me off to places and say we're going to go do this when. Yes, we have a family cabin up north in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan that we go to. Although, you know, my habit there is, I'll work. I'll start work in the morning on a laptop or iPad until my battery runs out, and then I shut it down, put on a charger, and then I go out and swim with everybody for the rest of the day. So it depends if I'm on a deadline or not, and I'm almost always on a deadline, but there are times I could take weekends off there. One of the great things of being a freelancer, though, and especially being a stay at home father, which is part of what I was doing, is that when things come up during the middle of the week, I could say, oh, sure, I can be flexible, right? The trouble is that I have to pay for that time on my weekends, a lot of the time, so I don't really get a lot of weekends off. On the other hand, I'm not I'm not committed to having to work every day of the week either, right? I need to go do doctor appointments, or we want to run off to Great America and do a theme park or whatever. I can do that anytime I want to. It's just I have to make up the time at other points during the week. Does your wife work? She does. She was a school social worker for many years, and now as a recruiter at a local technical college here called Black Hawk tech. And she's amazing, right? She's fantastic. She has always liked working. The only time she stopped working was for about a year and a half after the quads were born, I guess, two years. And that was the only time I ever took a job working with anybody else, because we needed the health insurance, so I we always got it through her. And then when she said, Well, I'm gonna stay home with the kids, which made tons of sense, I went and took a job with a video game company up in Madison, Wisconsin called Human Head Studios for about 18 months, 20 months. And then the moment she told me she was thinking about going back to work, I'm like, Oh, good, I can we can Cobra for 18 months and pay for our own health insurance, and I'm giving notice this week, and, you know, we'll work. I left on good terms that everybody. I still talk to them and whatever, but I very much like being my own boss and not worrying about what other people are going to tell me to do. I work with a lot of clients, which means I have a lot of people telling me what to do. But you know, if it turns out bad, I can walk I can walk away. If it turns out good, hopefully we get to do things together, like the the gig I've been working out with Marvel, I guess, has been going on for like, four years now, with pretty continuous work with them, and I'm enjoying every bit of it. They're great people to work with.   Speaker 1 ** 47:19 Now, you were the president of Pinnacle entertainment for a little while. Tell me about that.   Matt Forbeck ** 47:24 I was, that was a small gaming company I started up with a guy named Shane Hensley, who was another tabletop game designer. Our big game was something called Dead Lands, which was a Western zombie cowboy kind of thing. Oh gosh, Western horror. So. And it was pretty much a, you know, nobody was doing Western horror back in those days. So we thought, Oh, this is safe. And to give you an example of parallel development, we were six months into development, and another company, White Wolf, which had done a game called Vampire the Masquerade, announced that they were doing Werewolf the Wild West. And we're like, you gotta be kidding me, right? Fortunately, we still released our game three months before there, so everybody thought we were copying them, rather than the other way around. But the fact is, we were. We both just came up with the idea independently. Right? When you work in creative fields, often, if somebody wants to show you something, you say, I'd like to look at you have to sign a waiver first that says, If I do something like this, you can't sue me. And it's not because people are trying to rip you off. It's because they may actually be working on something similar, right already. Because we're all, you know, swimming in the same cultural pool. We're all, you know, eating the same cultural soup. We're watching or watching movies, playing games, doing whatever, reading books. And so it's not unusual that some of us will come up with similar ideas   Speaker 1 ** 48:45 well, and it's not surprising that from time to time, two different people are going to come up with somewhat similar concepts. So that's not a big surprise, exactly, but   Matt Forbeck ** 48:56 you don't want people getting litigious over it, like no, you don't be accused of ripping anybody off, right? You just want to be as upfront with people. With people. And I don't think I've ever actually seen somebody, at least in gaming, in tabletop games, rip somebody off like that. Just say, Oh, that's a great idea. We're stealing that it's easier to pay somebody to just say, Yes, that's a great idea. We'll buy that from you, right? As opposed to trying to do something unseemly and criminal?   Speaker 1 ** 49:24 Yeah, there's, there's something to be said for having real honor in the whole process.   Matt Forbeck ** 49:30 Yeah, I agree, and I think that especially if you're trying to have a long term career in any field that follows you, if you get a reputation for being somebody who plays dirty, nobody wants to play with you in the future, and I've always found it to be best to be as straightforward with people and honest, especially professionally, just to make sure that they trust you. Before my quadruplets were born, you could have set your clock by me as a freelancer, I never missed a deadline ever, and since then, I've probably it's a. Rare earth thing to make a deadline, because, you know, family stuff happens, and you know, there's just no controlling it. But whenever something does happen, I just call people up and say, hey, look, it's going to be another week or two. This is what's going on. And because I have a good reputation for completing the job and finishing quality work, they don't mind. They're like, Oh, okay, I know you're going to get this to me. You're not just trying to dodge me. So they're willing to wait a couple weeks if they need to, to get to get what they need. And I'm very grateful to them for that. And I'm the worst thing somebody can do is what do, what I call turtling down, which is when it's like, Oh no, I'm late. And then, you know, they cut off all communication. They don't talk to anybody. They just kind of try to disappear as much as they can. And we all, all adults, understand that things happen in your life. It's okay. We can cut you some slack every now and then, but if you just try to vanish, that's not even possible.   Speaker 1 ** 50:54 No, there's a lot to be there's a lot to be said for trust and and it's so important, I think in most anything that we do, and I have found in so many ways, that there's nothing better than really earning someone's trust, and they earning your trust. And it's something I talk about in my books, like when live with a guide dog, live like a guide dog, which is my newest book, it talks a lot about trust, because when you're working with a guide dog, you're really building a team, and each member of the team has a specific job to do, and as the leader of the team, it's my job to also learn how to communicate with the other member of the team. But the reality is, it still comes down to ultimately, trust, because I and I do believe that dogs do love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally. But the difference between dogs and people is that people that dogs are much more open to trust, for the most part, unless they've just been totally traumatized by something, but they're more open to trust. And there's a lesson to be learned there. No, I   Matt Forbeck ** 52:03 absolutely agree with that. I think, I think most people in general are trustworthy, but as you say, a lot of them have trauma in their past that makes it difficult for them to open themselves up to that. So that's actually a pretty wonderful way to think about things. I like that,   Speaker 1 ** 52:17 yeah, well, I think that trust is is so important. And I know when I worked in professional sales, it was all about trust. In fact, whenever I interviewed people for jobs, I always asked them what they were going to sell, and only one person ever answered me the way. I really hoped that everybody would answer when I said, So, tell me what you're going to be selling. He said, The only thing I have to really sell is myself and my word, and nothing else. It really matters. Everything else is stuff. What you have is stuff. It's me selling myself and my word, and you have to, and I would expect you to back me up. And my response was, as long as you're being trustworthy, then you're going to get my backing all the way. And he was my most successful salesperson for a lot of reasons, because he got it.   Matt Forbeck ** 53:08 Yeah, that's amazing. I mean, I mean, I've worked with people sourcing different things too, for sales, and if you can rely on somebody to, especially when things go wrong, to come through for you. And to be honest with you about, you know, there's really that's a hard thing to find. If you can't depend on your sources for what you're building, then you can't depend on anything. Everything else falls apart.   Speaker 1 ** 53:29 It does. You've got to start at the beginning. And if people can't earn your trust, and you earn theirs, there's a problem somewhere, and it's just not going to work.   Matt Forbeck ** 53:39 Yeah, I just generally think people are decent and want to help. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've had issues. Car breaks down the road in Wisconsin. Here, if somebody's car goes in the ditch, everybody stops and just hauls them out. It's what you do when the quads were born, my stepmother came up with a sign up sheet, a booklet that she actually had spiral bound, that people could sign up every three three hours to help come over and feed and bathe, diaper, whatever the kids and we had 30 to 35 volunteers coming in every week. Wow, to help us out with that was amazing, right? They just each pick slots, feeding slots, and come in and help us out. I had to take the 2am feeding, and my wife had to take the 5am feeding by ourselves. But the rest of the week we had lots and lots of help, and we were those kids became the surrogate grandchildren for, you know, 30 to 35 women and couples really, around the entire area, and it was fantastic. Probably couldn't have survived   Speaker 1 ** 54:38 without it. And the other part about it is that all those volunteers loved it, because you all appreciated each other, and it was always all about helping and assisting.   Matt Forbeck ** 54:48 No, we appreciate them greatly. But you know every most of them, like 99% of them, whatever were women, 95 women who are ready for grandchildren and didn't have them. Had grandchildren, and they weren't in the area, right? And they had that, that love they wanted to share, and they just loved the opportunity to do it. It was, I'm choking up here talking about such a great time for us in   Speaker 1 ** 55:11 that way. Now I'm assuming today, nobody has to do diaper duty with the quads, right?   Matt Forbeck ** 55:16 Not until they have their own kids. Just checking, just checking, thankfully, think we're that is long in our past,   Speaker 1 ** 55:23 is it? Is it coming fairly soon for anybody in the future?   Matt Forbeck ** 55:27 Oh, I don't know. That's really entirely up to them. We would love to have grandchildren, but you know, it all comes in its own time. They're not doing no well. I, one of my sons is married, so it's possible, right? And one of my other sons has a long term girlfriend, so that's possible, but, you know, who knows? Hopefully they're they have them when they're ready. I always say, if you have kids and you want them, that's great. If you have, if you don't have kids and you don't want them, that's great. It's when you cross the two things that,   Speaker 1 ** 55:57 yeah, trouble, yeah, that's that is, that is a problem. But you really like working with yourself. You love the entre

In this conversation, Amanda Paktinat, the interim CEO of the American Red Cross of Colorado and Wyoming, discusses the organization's local impact, misconceptions about its services, and the importance of community support. She highlights the role of volunteers, the evolution of fundraising, and the significance of building strong donor relationships.Amanda also shares insights on emergency preparedness, team engagement, and her transition into leadership, emphasizing the need for kindness and staying true to the mission in uncertain times.About Charity Charge:Charity Charge is a financial technology company serving the nonprofit sector. From the Charity Charge Nonprofit Credit Card to bookkeeping, gift card disbursements, and state compliance, we help mission-driven organizations streamline operations and stay financially strong. Learn more at charitycharge.com.

Today on Consuming the Craft, I welcomed Charlie Frisch from the American Red Cross to dive into the often-misunderstood world of blood donation. We got into what the Red Cross really does—going beyond blood drives to offer lifesaving training, disaster relief, and resources for veterans. Charlie shed light on the urgent and ongoing need for blood, especially in Western North Carolina, and shared the staggering fact that only 3% of people donate blood regularly. We unraveled misconceptions, discussed what it really feels like to give blood, and shared practical advice for anyone considering rolling up their sleeve for the first time. In true Consuming the Craft fashion, we also explored the intersection of fermentation and blood science while sampling a fine Armagnac, connecting the dots between crafting drinks and saving lives.Charlie Frisch has been with the American Red Cross for about a year, bringing with him 14 years of radio experience and several years in outdoor and alternative education. A New Yorker at heart who found his way to Asheville, Charlie is deeply passionate about community resilience and education. As a Red Cross representative, he works endlessly to inform and inspire others to donate blood and volunteer, helping to drive humanitarian aid and relief efforts far beyond local boundaries."When you think about the fact, and this is staggering, that only 3% of folks donate blood… that shortage starts to make sense." ~Charlie FirschToday on Consuming the Craft:·     The American Red Cross does much more than just blood drives; they provide lifeguard, CPR, and first aid training, disaster relief, and support for veterans.·     Only 3% of Americans regularly donate blood, leading to a perpetual shortage both locally in Western North Carolina and nationwide.·     Blood donations are critical because blood can only be stored for 42 days before it must be used.·     The process of donating blood is now quick (about 40 minutes), virtually painless, and highly efficient thanks to skilled professionals.·     Power Red donations allow eligible donors to give a concentrated amount of red blood cells using a smaller needle, making the experience even easier.·     Donors receive information on their blood type, blood pressure, hemoglobin, and even where their blood ends up being used—all via the Red Cross app.·     Anyone in good health, aged 17+ (or 16 with parental consent), can donate, and Power Red requires certain height and weight minimums.·     Interested individuals and organizations can volunteer with or host blood drives through the Red Cross, increasing their community impact. Contact Charlie Frisch and Red Cross Resources:Red Cross website: redcross.orgRed Cross Blood Donor App: Download to schedule appointments, track your donations, and receive updates on your blood's journeyRed Cross Asheville Donation Center: 100 Edgewood, West Asheville (off Merriman)To volunteer or set up a blood drive: Visit redcross.org and fill out a contact form, Charlie or a team member will reach out within 24 hoursResources Mentioned:• Red Cross Blood Donor App • Craft Beverage Institute of the Southeast • Hemocytometer (used for both blood and brewing science) This episode is brought to you by… McConnell Farms - Taste the Way You Remember. Enjoy homemade ciders and ice cream made from only the best produce on the market. Visit the McConnell Farms website to learn more about our seasonal inventory and the delicious creations you can make with our homegrown produce. Consuming the Craft Thanks for tuning into this week's Consuming the Craft Podcast episode, brought to you by AB Tech's Craft Beverage Institute of the Southeast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts. Apple Podcasts | GooglePlay  Be sure to share your favorite episodes on social media to help us reach more craft beverage enthusiasts. To learn more about AB Tech and the Craft Beer Institute of the Southeast, visit our website.

Our guest this time is Aaron Wolpoff who has spent his professional career as a marketing strategist and consultant to help companies develop strategic brands and enhance their audience growth. He owns the marketing firm, Double Zebra. He tells us about the name and how his company has helped a number of large and small companies grow and better serve their clients.   Aaron grew up in the San Diego area. He describes himself as a curious person and he says he always has been such. He loves to ask questions. He says as a child he was somewhat quiet, but always wanted to know more. He received his Bachelor's degree in marketing from the University of California at San Diego. After working for a firm for some four and a half years he and his wife moved up to the bay area in Northern California where attended San Francisco State University and obtained a Master's degree in Business.   In addition to his day job functioning as a business advisor and strategist Aaron also hosts a podcast entitled, We Fixed it, You're Welcome. I had the honor to appear on his podcast to discuss Uber and some of its accessibility issues especially concerning access by blind persons who use guide dogs to Uber's fleet. His podcast is quite fascinating and one I hope you will follow.   Aaron provides us in this episode many business insights. We talk about a number of challenges and successes marketing has brought to the business arena. I hope you like what Aaron offers.     About the Guest:   Aaron Wolpoff is a seasoned marketing strategist and communications consultant with a track record of positioning companies, products, and thought leadership for maximum impact. Throughout his career, Aaron has been somewhat of a trendspotter, getting involved in early initiatives around online banking, SaaS, EVs, IoT, and now AI, His ability to bridge complex industry dynamics and technology-driven solutions underscores his role as a forward-thinking consultant, podcaster, and business advisor, committed to enhancing organizational effectiveness and fostering strategic growth.   As the driving force behind the Double Zebra marketing company, Aaron excels in identifying untapped marketing assets, refining brand narratives, and orchestrating strategic pivots from paid advertising to organic audience growth. His insights have guided notable campaigns for consumer brands, technology firms, and professional service providers, always with a keen eye for differentiating messages that resonate deeply with target audiences. In addition to his strategic marketing expertise, Aaron hosts the Top 20 business management podcast, We Fixed It, You're Welcome, known for its sharp, humorous analysis of major corporate challenges and missteps. Each episode brings listeners inside complex business scenarios, unfolding like real-time case studies where Aaron and his panel of experts dissect high-profile decisions, offering insightful and actionable solutions. His ability to distill complex business issues into relatable, engaging discussions has garnered widespread acclaim and a dedicated following among executives and decision-makers.   Ways to connect with Aaron:   Marketing company: https://doublezebra.com Podcast: https://wefixeditpod.com LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/marketingaaron     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Hi there, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to chat with Aaron Wolpoff, who is a marketing strategist and expert in a lot of different ways. I've read his bio, which you can find in the show notes. It seems to me that he is every bit as much of an expert is his bio says he is, but we're going to find out over the next hour or so for sure. We'll we'll not pick on him too much, but, but nevertheless, it's fun to be here. Aaron, so I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. I'm glad you're here, and we're glad that we get a chance to do   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 01:58 this. Thanks, Michael, thanks for having me. You're gonna grill me for an hour, huh?   Michael Hingson ** 02:04 Oh, sure. Why not? You're used to it. You're a marketing expert.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 02:08 That's what we do. Yeah, we're always, uh, scrutiny for one thing or another.   Michael Hingson ** 02:13 I remember, I think it was back in was it 82 or 1982 or 1984 when they had the big Tylenol incident. You remember that? You know about   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 02:25 that? I do? Yeah, there's a Netflix documentary happening right now. Is there? Well, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 02:31 a bottle of Tylenol was, for those who don't know, contaminated and someone died from it. But the manufacturer of Tylenol, the CEO the next day, just got right out in front of it and said what they were going to do about removing all Tylenol from the shelves until it could be they could all be examined and so on. Just did a number of things. It was a wonderful case, it seemed to me, for how to deal with a crisis when it came up. And I find that all too many companies and organizations don't necessarily know how to do that. Do they now?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 03:09 And a lot of times they operate in crisis mode. That's the default. And no one likes to be around that, you know. So that's, I guess, step one is dealing even you know, deal with a crisis when it comes up, and make sure that your your day to day is not crisis fire as much as possible,   Michael Hingson ** 03:26 but know how to deal with a crisis, which is kind of the issue, and that's, that's what business continuity, of course, is, is really all about. I spoke at the Business Continuity Institute hybrid conference in London last October, and as one of the people who asked me to come and speak, explained, business continuity, people are the what if people that are always looking at, how do we deal with any kind of an emergency that comes up in an organization, knowing full well that nobody's really going to listen to them until there's really an emergency, and then, of course, they're indispensable, but The rest of the time they're not for   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 04:02 sure. Yeah, it's definitely that, you know, good. You bring up a good point about knowing how to deal with a crisis, because it will, it, will you run a business for long enough you have a company, no matter how big, eventually something bad is going to happen, and it's Tylenol. Was, is pre internet or, you know, we oh, yeah, good while ago they had time to formulate a response and craft it and and do a well presented, you know, public reassurance nowadays it's you'd have five seconds before you have to get something out there.   Michael Hingson ** 04:35 Well, even so, the CEO did it within, like, a day or so, just immediately came out and said what, what was initially going to be done. Of course, there was a whole lot more to it, but still, he got right out in front of it and dealt with it in a calm way, which I think is really important for businesses to do, and and I do find that so many don't and they they deal with so many different kinds of stress. Horrible things in the world, and they create more than they really should about fear anyway,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 05:07 yeah, for sure, and now I think that Tylenol wasn't ultimately responsible. I haven't watched to the end, but if I remember correctly, but sometimes these crisis, crises that companies find themselves embroiled in, are self perpetuated? Yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 05:23 Well, Tylenol wasn't responsible. Somebody did it. Somebody put what, cyanide or something in into a Tylenol bottle. So they weren't responsible, but they sure dealt with it, which is the important thing. And you know, they're, they're still with us. Yeah?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 05:38 No, they dealt with it. Well, their sales are great, everyday household product. No one can dispute it. But what I say is, with the with the instantaneousness of reach to your to your public, and to you know, consumers and public at large, a lot of crises are, can be self perpetuated, like you tweet the wrong thing, or is it called a tweet anymore? I don't know, but you know, you post something a little bit a little bit out of step with what people are think about you or thinking in general, and and now, all of a sudden, you're in the middle of something that you didn't want to be in the middle of, as a company well,   Michael Hingson ** 06:15 and I also noticed that, like the media will, so often they hear something, they report it, and they haven't necessarily checked to see the facts behind it, only to find out within an hour or two that what they reported was wrong. And they helped to sometimes promote the fear and promote the uncertainty, rather than waiting a little bit until they get all the information reasonably correct. And of course, part of the problem is they say, well, but everybody else is going to report it. So each station says everybody else is going to report it, so we have to keep up. Well, I'm not so sure about that all the time. Oh, that's very true, too, Michael, especially with, you know, off brand media outlets I'll spend with AI like, I'll be halfway through an article now, and I'll see something that's extremely generated and and I'll realize I've just wasted a whole bunch of time on a, you know, on a fake article, yeah, yeah, yeah, way, way too much. But even the mainstream media will report things very quickly to get it out there, but they don't necessarily have all the data, right. And I understand you can't wait for days to deal with things, but you should wait at least a little bit to make sure you've got data enough to report in a cogent way. And it just doesn't always happen.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 07:33 Yeah, well, I don't know who the watch keepers of that are. I'm not a conspiracy theorist in that way by any means?   Michael Hingson ** 07:41 No, no, it isn't a conspiracy. But yeah,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 07:44 yeah, no, no, I know, but it's again. I think it goes back to that tight the shortness of the cycle, like again. Tylenol waited a day to respond back in the day, which is great. But now, would you have you know, if Tylenol didn't say   Michael Hingson ** 07:59 anything for a day. If they were faced with a similar situation, people would vilify them and say, Well, wait, you waited a day to tell us something we wanted it in the first 30 seconds, yeah, oh, yeah. And that makes it more difficult, but I would hope that Tylenol would say, yeah. We waited a day because we were getting our facts together. 30 seconds is great in the media, but that doesn't work for reality, and in most cases, it doesn't. But yeah, I know what you're saying,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 08:30 Yeah, but the appetite in the 24 hour news cycle, if people are hungry for new more information, so it does push news outlets, media outlets into let's respond as quick as possible and figure out the facts along the way. Yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 08:46 Well, for fun, why don't you tell us about sort of the early era and growing up, and how you got to doing the sorts of things that you're doing now. Well, I grew up in San Diego, California. I best weather in the country. I don't care what anyone says, Yeah,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 09:03 you can't really beat it. No, I don't think anyone's gonna debate you on it. They call it the sunshine tax, because things cost a lot out here, but they do, you know, he grew up here, you put up with it. But yeah, so I grew up, grew up San Diego, college, San Diego. Life in San Diego, I've been elsewhere. I've traveled. I've seen some of the world. I like it. I've always wanted to come back, but I grew up really curious. I read a lot, I asked a lot of questions. And I also wanted, wanting to know, well, I want to know. Well, I wanted to know a lot of things about a lot of things, and I also was really scared. Is the wrong word, but I looked up to adults when I was a kid, and I didn't want to be put in a position where I was expected to know something that I didn't know. So it led to times where I'd pretend like I need you. Know, do you know? You know what this is, right? And I'd pretend like I knew, and early career, career even, and then I get called out on something, and it just was like a gut punch, like, but I'm supposed to know that, you know,   Michael Hingson ** 10:13 what did your parents think of you being so curious as you were growing up?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 10:17 They they liked it, but I was quiet, okay? Quiet, quiet, quietly, confident and curious. It's just an interesting, I guess, an interesting mix. Yeah, but no, they Oh, they indulged it. I, you know, they answered my questions. They like I said, I read a lot, so frequent trips to the library to read a lot about a lot of things, but I think, you know, professionally, you take something that's kind of a grab bag, and what do I do with all these different interests? And when I started college undeclared, I realized, you know, communications, marketing, you kind of can make a discipline out of a bunch of interests, and call it something professional. Where did you go to college? I went to UCSD. UCSD, here in San Diego, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 11:12 well, I was just up the road from you at UC Irvine. So here two good campuses,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 11:18 they are, they are and UCSD. I was back recently. It's like a it's like a city. Now, every time we go back, we see these, these kids. They're babies. They get they get food every you know, they have, like, a food nice food court. There's parking, an abundance of parking, there's theaters, there's all the things we didn't have. Of course, we had some of it, but they just have, like, what if we had one of something or 50 parking spaces, they've got 5000 you know. And if we had, you know, one one food option, they got 35 Yeah, they don't know how good they have it.   Michael Hingson ** 11:53 When I was at UC urban, I think we had 3200 undergraduates. It wasn't huge. It was in that area. Now, I think there's 31,000 or 32,000 undergrads. Oh, wow. And as one of my former physics professors joked, he's retired, but I got to meet him. I was there, and last year I was inducted as an alumni member of Phi, beta, kappa. And so we were talking, and he said, You know what UCI really stands for, don't you? Well, I didn't, I said, What? And he said, under construction indefinitely. And there's, they're always building, sure, and that's that started when I was there, but, but they are always building. And it's just an amazing place today, with so many students and graduate students, undergrads and faculty, and it's, it's an amazing place. I think I'd have a little bit more of a challenge of learning where everything is, although I could do it, if I had to go back, I could do it. Yeah, UCI is nice. But I think you could say, you could say that about any of the UCs are constantly under, under development. And, you know, that's the old one. That's the old area. And I'm like, oh, that's I went to school in the old area. I know the old area. I remember Central Park. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So you ended up majoring in Marketing and Communications,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 13:15 yeah. So I undergrad in communications. They have a really nice business school now that they did not have at the time. So I predated that, but I probably would have ended up there. I got out with a very, not knocking the school. It's a great, wonderful school. I got out with a very theory, theoretical based degree. So I knew a lot about communications from a theory based perspective. I knew about brain cognition. I took maybe one quarter of practical use it professionally. It was like a video, like a video production course, so I I learned hands on, 111, quarter out of my entire academic career. But a lot of it was learning. The learning not necessarily applied, but just a lot of theory. And I started school at 17, and I got out just shortly after my 21st birthday, so I don't know what my hurry was, but, but there I was with a lot of theory, some some internships, but not a ton of professional experience. And, you know, trying to figure it out in the work world at that point. Did you get a graduate degree or just undergrad? I did. I went back. So I did it for almost five years in in financial marketing, and then, and I wear a suit and tie to work every day, which I don't think anyone does anymore. And I'm suddenly like, like, I'm from the 30s. I'm not that old, but, but no, seriously, we, you know, to work at the at the headquarters of a international credit union. Of course, I wear a suit, no after four and a half. Years there, I went back to graduate school up in the bay the Bay Area, Bay Area, and that's when I got my masters in in marketing. Oh, where'd you go in the Bay Area? San Francisco, state. Okay, okay, yeah, really nice school. It's got one of the biggest International MBA programs in the country, I think. And got to live in that city for a couple years.   Michael Hingson ** 15:24 We lived in Novato, so North Bay, for 12 years, from 2002 to the end of June 2014 Yeah, I like that area. That's, that's the, oh, the weather isn't San Diego's. That area is still a really nice area to live as well. Again, it is pretty expensive, but still it   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 15:44 is, yeah, I it's not San Diego weather, a beautiful day. There is like nothing else. But when we first got there, I said, I want to live by the beach. That's what I know. And we got out to the beach, which is like at the end of the outer sunset, and it's in the 40s streets, and it feels like the end of the universe. It just, it just like, feels apocalyptic. And I said, I don't want to live by the beach anymore, but, but no, it was. It was a great, great learning experience, getting an MBA. I always say it's kind of like a backpack or a toolkit you walk around with, because it is all that's all application. You know, everything that I learned about theory put into practice, you got to put into practice. And so I was, I was really glad that I that I got to do that. And like I said, Live, live in, live in the Bay. For a couple years, I'd always wanted   Michael Hingson ** 16:36 to, yeah, well, that's a nice area to live. If you got to live somewhere that is one of the nicer places. So glad you got that opportunity. And having done it, as I said for 12 years, I appreciate it too. And yeah, so much to offer there.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 16:51 The only problem I had was it was in between the two.com bubbles. So literally, nothing was happening. The good side was that the apartment I was living in went for something like $5,500 before I got there, and then the draw everything dropped, you know, the bottom dropped out, and I was able to squeak by and afford living in the city. But, you know, you go for look, seeking your fortune. And there's, there's, I had just missed it. And then I left, and then it just came back. So I was, I was there during a lull. So you're the one, huh? Okay, I didn't do it, just the way Miami worked out. Did you then go back to San Diego? I did, yeah. So I've met my wife here. We moved up to the bay together, and when we were debating, when I graduated, we were thinking, do we want to drive, you know, an hour and a half Silicon Valley or someone, you know, somewhere further out just to stay in the area? Or do we want to go back to where we where we know and like, and start a life there and we, you know, send, like you said at the beginning, San Diego is not a bad place to be. So as it was never a fallback, but as a place to, you know, come back home to, yeah, I welcomed it.   Michael Hingson ** 18:08 And so what did you do when you came back to San Diego?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 18:12 So I have my best friend from childhood was starting as a photography company still does, and it was starting like a sister company, as an agency to serve the photography company, which was growing really fast, and then also, like picking up clients and building a book out of so he said, you know you're, I see you're applying for jobs, and I know that you're, you know, you're getting some offers and things, but just say no To all of them and come work with me and and at the time it was, it was running out of a was like a loft of an apartment, but it, you know, it grew to us, a small staff, and then a bigger staff, and spun off on its own. And so that's, that's what I did right out of, right out of grad school. I said no to a few things, and said there's a lot, lot worse fates than you know, spending your work day with your best friend and and growing a company out and so what exactly did you do for them? So it was like, we'll call it a boutique creative agency. It was around the time of I'm making myself sound so old. See, so there was flash, flash technology, like web banners were made with Flash. It had moved to be flash, Adobe, Flash, yeah. So companies were making these web banners, and what you call interactive we got a proficiency of making full website experiences with Flash, which not a lot of companies were doing. So because of that, it led to some really interesting opportunities and clients and being able to take on a capability, a proficiency that you know for a time. Uh was, was uh as a differentiator, say, you know, you could have a web banner and an old website, or you could have a flash, interactive website where you take your users on an experience with music and all the things that seem so dated now,   Michael Hingson ** 20:14 well, and of course, unfortunately, a lot of that content wasn't very accessible, so some of us didn't really get access to a lot of it, and I don't remember whether Adobe really worked to make flash all that accessible. They dealt with other things, but I'm not sure that flash ever really was. Yeah, I'm with you on that. I really, I don't think so.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 20:38 What we would wind up doing is making parallel websites, but, but then mobile became a thing, and then you'd make a third version of a website, and it just got tedious. And really it's when the iPhone came out. It just it flash got stopped in its tracks, like it was like a week, and then action script, which is the language that it runs on, and all the all the capabilities and proficiencies, just there was no use for it anymore.   Michael Hingson ** 21:07 Well, and and the iPhone came out, as you said, and one of the things that happened fairly early on was that, because they were going to be sued, Apple agreed to make the I devices accessible, and they did something that hadn't really been done up to that time. They set the trend for it. They built accessibility into the operating systems, and they built the ability to have accessibility into the operating systems. The one thing that I wish that Apple would do even a little bit more of than they do, than they do today, although it's better than it used to be, is I wish they would mandate, or require people who are going to put apps in the App Store, for example, to make sure that the apps are accessible. They have guidelines. They have all sorts of information about how to do it, but they don't really require it, and so you can still get inaccessible apps, which is unfortunate,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 22:09 that is Yeah, and like you said, with Flash, an entire you know, ecosystem had limited to no accessibility, so   Michael Hingson ** 22:16 and making additional on another website, Yeah, a lot of places did that, but they weren't totally equal, because they would make enough of the website, well, they would make the website have enough content to be able to do things, but they didn't have everything that they had on the graphical or flash website, and so It was definitely there, but it wasn't really, truly equal, which is unfortunate, and so now it's a lot better.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 22:46 Yeah, it is no and I hate to say it, but if it came down to limited time, limited budget, limited everything you want to make something that is usable and efficient, but no, I mean, I can't speak for all developers, but no, it would be hard. You'd be hard pressed to create a an equally parallel experience with full accessibility at the time.   Michael Hingson ** 23:16 Yeah, yeah, you would. And it is a lot better. And there's, there's still stuff that needs to be done, but I think over time, AI is going to help some of that. And it is already made. It isn't perfect yet, but even some graphics and so on can be described by AI. And we're seeing things improve over, over, kind of what they were. So we're making progress, which is good,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 23:44 yeah, no, I'm really happy about that. And with with AI and AI can go through and parse your code and build in all you know, everything that that needs to happen, there's a lot less excuse for for not making something as accessible as it can   Michael Hingson ** 23:59 be, yeah, but people still ignore it to a large degree. Still, only about 3% of all websites really have taken the time to put some level of accessibility into them. So there's still a lot to be done, and it's just not that magical or that hard, but it's mostly, I think, education. People don't know, they don't know that it can be done. They don't think about it being done, or they don't do it initially, and so then it becomes a lot more expensive to do later on, because you got to go back and redo   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 24:28 it, all right, yeah, anything, anytime you have to do something, something retroactive or rebuild, you're, yeah, you're starting from not a great place.   Michael Hingson ** 24:37 So how long did you work with your friend?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 24:42 A really long time, because I did the studio, and then I wound up keeping that alive. But going over to the photography side, the company really grew. Had a team of staff photographers, had a team of, like a network of photographers, and. And was doing quite, quite a lot, an abundance of events every year, weddings and corporate and all types of things. So all in, I was with the company till, gosh, I want to say, like, 2014 or so. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 25:21 And then what did you go off and do?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 25:25 So then I worked for an agency, so I got started with creative and, well, rewinding, I got started with financial marketing, with the suit and tie. But then I went into creative, and I've tried pretty much every aspect of marketing I hadn't done marketing automation and email sequences and CRMs and outreach and those types of things. So that was the agency I worked for that was their specialization, which I like, to a degree, but it's, it's not my, not my home base. Yeah, there's, there's people that love and breathe automation. I like having interjecting some, you know, some type of personal aspect into the what you're putting out there. And I have to wrestle with that as ai, ai keeps growing in prominence, like, Where's the place for the human, creative? But I did that for a little while, and then I've been on my own for the past six or seven years.   Michael Hingson ** 26:26 So what is it you do today? Exactly?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 26:30 So I'm, we'll call it a fractional CMO, or a fractional marketing advisor. So I come in and help companies grow their their marketing and figure themselves out. I've gone I work with large companies. I've kind of gone back to early stage startups and and tech companies. I just find that they're doing really more, a lot more interesting things right now with the market the way it is. They're taking more chances and and they're they're moving faster. I like to move pretty quick, so that's where my head's at. And I'm doing more. We'll call em like CO entrepreneurial ventures with my clients, as opposed to just a pure agency service model, which is interesting. And and I got my own podcast. There you go. Yeah. What's your podcast called? Not to keep you busy, it's called, we fixed it. You're welcome. There you   Michael Hingson ** 27:25 go. And it seems to me, if my memory hasn't failed me, even though I don't take one of those memory or brain supplements, we were on it not too long ago, talking about Uber, which was fun.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 27:39 We had you on there. I don't know which episode will drop first, this one or or the one you were on, but we sure enjoyed having you on there.   Michael Hingson ** 27:46 Well, it was fun. Well, we'll have to do more of it, and I think it'd be fun to but so you own your own business. Then today,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 27:53 I do, yeah, it's called Double zebra.   Michael Hingson ** 27:56 Now, how did you come up with that name?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 27:59 It's two basic elements, so basic, black and white, something unremarkable, but if you can take it and multiply it or repeat it, then you're onto something interesting.   Michael Hingson ** 28:13 Lots of stripes. Yeah, lots of stripes.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 28:17 And it's always fun when I talk to someone in the UK or Australia, or then they say zebra or zebra, right? I get to hear the way they say it. It's that's fun. Occasionally I get double double zero. People will miss misname it and double zero. That's his   Michael Hingson ** 28:34 company's that. But has anybody called it double Zed yet?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 28:39 No, that's a new one.   Michael Hingson ** 28:41 Yeah? Well, you never know. Maybe we've given somebody the idea now. Yeah, yeah. Well, so I'm I'm curious. You obviously do a lot to analyze and help people in critique in corporate mishaps. Have you ever seen a particular business mistake that you really admire and just really love, its audacity,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 29:07 where it came out wrong, but I liked it anyway, yeah, oh, man,   Michael Hingson ** 29:13 let's see, or one maybe, where they learned from their mistake and fixed it. But still, yeah, sure.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 29:23 Yeah, that's a good one. I like, I like bold moves, even if they're wrong, as long as they don't, you know, they're not harmful to people I don't know. Let's go. I'm I'm making myself old. Let's go back to Crystal crystal. Pepsi, there you go for that. But that was just such a fun idea at the time. You know, we're the new generation and, and this is the 90s, and everything's new now, and we're going to take the color out of out of soda, I know we're and we're going to take it and just make it what you know, but a little unfamiliar, right? Right? It's Crystal Pepsi, and the ads were cool, and it was just very of the moment. Now, that moment didn't last very long, no, and the public didn't, didn't hold on to it very long. But there's, you know, it was, it let you question, and I in a good way, what you thought about what is even a Pepsi. And it worked. It was they brought it back, like for a very short time, five, I want to say five or six years ago, just because people had a nostalgia for it. But yeah, big, big, bold, we're confident this is the new everyone's going to be talking about this for a long time, and we're going to put a huge budget behind it, Crystal Pepsi. And it it didn't, but yeah, I liked it.   Michael Hingson ** 30:45 So why is that that is clearly somebody had to put a lot of effort into the concept, and must have gotten some sort of message that it would be very successful, but then it wasn't,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 31:00 yeah, yeah. For something like that, you have to get buy in at so many levels. You know, you have an agency saying, this is the right thing to do. You have CD, your leadership saying, No, I don't know. Let's pull back. Whenever an agency gets away with something and and spends a bunch of client money and it's just audacious, and I can't believe they did it. I know how many levels of buy in they had to get, yeah, to say, Trust me. Trust me. And a lot of times it works, you know, if they do something that just no one else had had thought of or wasn't willing to do, and then you see that they got through all those levels of bureaucracy and they were able to pull it off.   Michael Hingson ** 31:39 When it works. I love it. When it doesn't work. I love it, you know, just, just the fact that they did it, yeah, you got to admire that. Gotta admire it. They pulled it off, yeah. My favorite is still ranch flavored Fritos. They disappeared, and I've never understood why I love ranch flavored Fritos. And we had them in New Jersey and so on. And then we got, I think, out to California. But by that time, they had started to fade away, and I still have never understood why. Since people love ranch food so   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 32:06 much, that's a good one. I don't know that. I know those because it does, it does that one actually fill a market need. If there's Doritos, there's, you know, the ranch, I don't know if they were, they different.   Michael Hingson ** 32:17 They were Fritos, but they they did have ranch you know they were, they were ranch flavored, and I thought they were great. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know that one didn't hit because they have, I think they have chili flavor. They have regular. Do they have anything else honey barbecue? I don't know. I don't know, but I do still like regular, but I love ranch flavored the best. Now, I heard last week that Honey Nut Cheerios are going away. General Mills is getting rid of honey nut cheerios. No, is that real? That's what I heard on the news. Okay, I believe you, but I'll look it up anyway. Well, it's interesting. I don't know why, after so many years, they would but there have been other examples of cereals and so on that were around for a while and left and, well, Captain Crunch was Captain Crunch was one, and I'm not sure if lucky charms are still around. And then there was one called twinkles.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 33:13 And I know all those except twinkles, but I would if you asked me, I would say, Honey Nut Cheerios. There's I would say their sales are better than Cheerios, or at least I would think so, yeah, at least a good portfolio company. Well, who knows, who knows, but I do know that Gen Z and millennials eat cereal a lot less than us older folks, because it takes work to put milk and cereal into a bowl, and it's not pre made, yeah. So maybe it's got to do with, you know, changing eating habits and consumer preferences   Michael Hingson ** 33:48 must be Yeah, and they're not enough of us, older, more experienced people to to counteract that. But you know, well, we'll see Yeah, as long as they don't get rid of the formula because it may come back. Yeah, well, now   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 34:03 Yeah, exactly between nostalgia and reboots and remakes and nothing's gone forever, everything comes back eventually.   Michael Hingson ** 34:10 Yeah, it does in all the work that you've done. Have you ever had to completely rethink and remake your approach and do something different?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 34:24 Yeah, well, there's been times where I've been on uncharted territory. I worked with an EV company before EVs were a thing, and it was going, actually going head to head with with Tesla. But the thing there's they keep trying to bring it back and crowd sourcing it and all that stuff. It's, but at the time, it was like, I said it was like, which is gonna make it first this company, or Tesla, but, but this one looks like a, it looks, it feels like a spaceship. It's got, like space. It's a, it's, it's really. Be really unique. So the one that that is more like a family car one out probably rightly so. But there was no consumer understanding of not, let alone our preference, like there is now for an EV and what do I do? I have to plug it in somewhere and and all those things. So I had to rethink, you know what? There's no playbook for that yet. I guess I have to kind of work on it. And they were only in prototyping at the point where we came in and had to launch this, you know, teaser and teaser campaign for it, and build up awareness and demand for this thing that existed on a computer at the time.   Michael Hingson ** 35:43 What? Why is Tesla so successful?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 35:48 Because they spent a bunch of money. Okay, that helps? Yeah, they were playing the long game. They could outspend competitors. They've got the unique distribution model. And they kind of like, I said, retrained consumers into how you buy a car, why you buy a car, and, and I think politics aside, people love their people love their teslas. You don't. My understanding is you don't have to do a whole lot once you buy it. And, and they they, like I said, they had the money to throw at it, that they could wait, wait it out and wait out that when you do anything with retraining consumers or behavior change or telling them you know, your old car is bad, your new this new one's good, that's the most. We'll call it costly and and difficult forms of marketing is retraining behavior. But they, they had the money to write it out and and their products great, you know, again, I'm not a Tesla enthusiast, but it's, it looks good. People love it. I you know, they run great from everything that I know, but so did a lot of other companies. So I think they just had the confidence in what they were doing to throw money at it and wait, be patient and well,   Michael Hingson ** 37:19 they're around there again the the Tesla is another example of not nearly as accessible as it should be and and I recognize that I'm not going to be the primary driver of a Tesla today, although I have driven a Tesla down Interstate 15, about 15 miles the driver was in the car, but, but I did it for about 15 miles going down I 15 and fully appreciate what autonomous vehicles will be able to do. We're way too much still on the cusp, and I think that people who just poo poo them are missing it. But I also know we're not there yet, but the day is going to come when there's going to be a lot more reliability, a lot less potential for accidents. But the thing that I find, like with the Tesla from a passenger standpoint, is I can't do any of the things that a that a sighted passenger can do. I can't unless it's changed in the last couple of years. I can't manipulate the radio. I can't do the other things that that that passengers might do in the Tesla, and I should be able to do that, and of all the vehicles where they ought to have access and could, the Tesla would be one, and they could do it even still using touch screens. I mean, the iPhone, for example, is all touch screen. But Apple was very creative about creating a mechanism to allow a person to not need to look at the screen using VoiceOver, the screen reader on the iPhone, but having a new set of gestures that were created that work with VoiceOver so that I could interact with that screen just as well as you can.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 38:59 That's interesting that you say that, you know, Apple was working on a car for a while, and I don't know to a fact, but I bet they were thinking through accessibility and building that into every turn, or at least planning to,   Michael Hingson ** 39:13 oh, I'm sure they were. And the reality is, it isn't again. It isn't that magical to do. It would be simple for the Teslas and and other vehicles to do it. But, you know, we're we're not there mentally. And that's of course, the whole issue is that we just societally don't tend to really look at accessibility like we should. My view of of, say, the apple the iPhone, still is that they could be marketing the screen reader software that I use, which is built into the system already. They could, they could do some things to mark market that a whole lot more than they already do for sighted people. Your iPhone rings, um. You have to tap it a lot of times to be able to answer it. Why can't they create a mode when you're in a vehicle where a lot more of that is verbally, spoken and handled through voice output from the phone and voice input from you, without ever having to look at or interact with the screen.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 40:19 I bet you're right, yeah, it's just another app at that point   Michael Hingson ** 40:22 well, and it's what I do. I mean, it's the way I operate with it. So I just think that they could, they could be more creative. There's so many examples of things that begin in one way and alter themselves or become altered. The typewriter, for example, was originally developed for a blind Countess to be able to communicate with her lover without her husband finding out her husband wasn't very attentive to her anyway. But the point is that the, I think the lover, created the this device where she could actually sit down and type a letter and seal it and give it to a maid or someone to give to, to her, her friend. And that's how the typewriter other other people had created, some examples, but the typewriter from her was probably the thing that most led to what we have today.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 41:17 Oh, I didn't know that. But let me Michael, let me ask you. So I was in LA not too long ago, and they have, you know, driverless vehicles are not the form yet, but they we, I saw them around the city. What do you think about driverless vehicles in terms of accessibility or otherwise?   Michael Hingson ** 41:32 Well, again, so, so the most basic challenge that, fortunately, they haven't really pushed which is great, is okay, you're driving along in an autonomous vehicle and you lose connection, or whatever. How are you going to be able to pull it off to the side of the road? Now, some people have talked about saying that there, there has to be a law that only sighted people could well the sighted people a sighted person has to be in the vehicle. The reality is, the technology has already been developed to allow a blind person to get behind the wheel of a car and have enough information to be able to drive that vehicle just as well, or nearly as well, as a sighted person. But I think for this, from the standpoint of autonomousness, I'm all for it. I think we're going to continue to see it. It's going to continue to get better. It is getting better daily. So I haven't ridden in a fully autonomous vehicle, but I do believe that that those vehicles need to make sure, or the manufacturers need to make sure that they really do put accessibility into it. I should be able to give the vehicle all the instructions and get all the information that any sighted person would get from the vehicle, and the technology absolutely exists to do that today. So I think we will continue to see that, and I think it will get better all the way around. I don't know whether, well, I think they that actually there have been examples of blind people who've gotten into an autonomous vehicle where there wasn't a sighted person, and they've been able to function with it pretty well. So I don't see why it should be a problem at all, and it's only going to get   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 43:22 better. Yeah, for sure. And I keep thinking, you know, accessibility would be a prior priority in autonomous vehicles, but I keep learning from you, you know you were on our show and and our discussions, that the priorities are not always in line and not always where they necessarily should   Michael Hingson ** 43:39 be. Well. And again, there are reasons for it, and while I might not like it, I understand it, and that is, a lot of it is education, and a lot of it is is awareness. Most schools that teach people how to code to develop websites don't spend a lot of time dealing with accessibility, even though putting all the codes in and creating accessible websites is not a magically difficult thing to do, but it's an awareness issue. And so yeah, we're just going to have to continue to fight the fight and work toward getting people to be more aware of why it's necessary. And in reality, I do believe that there is a lot of truth to this fact that making things more accessible for me will help other people as well, because by having not well, voice input, certainly in a vehicle, but voice output and so on, and a way for me to accessibly, be able to input information into an autonomous vehicle to take to have it take me where I want to go, is only going to help everyone else as well. A lot of things that I need would benefit sighted people so well, so much.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 44:56 Yeah, you're exactly right. Yeah, AI assisted. And voice input and all those things, they are universally loved and accepted now, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 45:07 it's getting better. The unemployment rate is still very high among, for example, employable blind people, because all too many people still think blind people can't work, even though they can. So it's all based on prejudice rather than reality, and we're, we're, we're just going to have to continue to work to try to deal with the issues. I wrote an article a couple of years ago. One of the things where we're constantly identified in the world is we're blind or visually impaired. And the problem with visually impaired is visually we're not different simply because we don't see and impaired, we are not we're getting people slowly to switch to blind and low vision, deaf people and hard of hearing people did that years ago. If you tell a deaf person they're hearing impaired, they're liable to deck you on the spot. Yeah, and blind people haven't progressed to that point, but it's getting there, and the reality is blind and low vision is a much more appropriate terminology to use, and it's not equating us to not having eyesight by saying we're impaired, you know. So it's it's an ongoing process, and all we can do is continue to work at it?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 46:21 Yeah, no. And I appreciate that you do. Like I said, education and retraining is, is call it marketing or call it, you know, just the way people should behave. But it's, that's, it's hard. It's one of the hardest things to do.   Michael Hingson ** 46:36 But, you know, we're making progress, and we'll, we'll continue to do that, and I think over time we'll we'll see things improve. It may not happen as quickly as we'd like, but I also believe that I and other people who are blind do need to be educators. We need to teach people. We need to be patient enough to do that. And you know, I see so often articles written about Me who talk about how my guide dog led me out of the World Trade Center. The guide dog doesn't lead anybody anywhere. That's not the job of the dog. The dog's job is to make sure that we walk safely. It's my job to know where to go and how to get there. So a guide dog guides and will make sure that we walk safely. But I'm the one that has to tell the dog, step by step, where I want the dog to go, and that story is really the crux of what I talk about many times when I travel and speak to talk to the public about what happened in the World Trade Center, because I spent a lot of time learning what I needed to do in order to escape safely and on September 11, not ever Having anticipated that we would need that kind of information, but still preparing for it, the mindset kicked in, and it all worked well.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 47:49 You You and I talked about Uber on on my show, when you came on, and we gave them a little ding and figured out some stuff for them, what in terms of accessibility, and, you know, just general corporate citizenship, what's what's a company that, let's give them a give, give, call them out for a good reason? What's a company that's doing a good job, in your eyes, in your mind, for accessibility, maybe an unexpected one.   Michael Hingson ** 48:20 Well, as I mentioned before, I think Apple is doing a lot of good things. I think Microsoft is doing some good I think they could do better than they are in in some ways, but they're working at it. I wish Google would put a little bit more emphasis on making its you its interface more more usable to you really use the like with Google Docs and so on. You have to hurt learn a whole lot of different commands to make part of that system work, rather than it being as straightforward as it should be, there's some new companies coming up. There's a new company called inno search. Inno search.ai, it was primarily designed at this point for blind and low vision people. The idea behind inner search is to have any a way of dealing with E commerce and getting people to be able to help get help shopping and so on. So they actually have a a phone number. It's, I think it's 855, shop, G, P, T, and you can go in, and you can talk to the bot and tell it what you want, and it can help fill up a shopping cart. It's using artificial intelligence, but it understands really well. I have yet to hear it tell me I don't understand what you want. Sometimes it gives me a lot of things that more than I than I'm searching for. So there, there's work that needs to be done, but in a search is really a very clever company that is spending a lot of time working to make. Sure that everything that it does to make a shopping experience enjoyable is also making sure that it's accessible.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 50:08 Oh, that's really interesting. Now, with with my podcast, and just in general, I spend a lot of time critiquing companies and and not taking them to test, but figuring out how to make them better. But I always like the opportunity to say you did something well, like even quietly, or you're, you know, people are finding you because of a certain something you didn't you took it upon yourselves to do and figure out   Michael Hingson ** 50:34 there's an audio editor, and we use it some unstoppable mindset called Reaper. And Reaper is a really great digital audio workstation product. And there is a whole series of scripts that have been written that make Reaper incredibly accessible as an audio editing tool. It's really great. It's about one of the most accessible products that I think I have seen is because they've done so well with it, which is kind of cool.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 51:06 Oh, very nice. Okay, good. It's not even expensive. You gave me two to look, to pay attention to, and, you know, Track, track, along with,   Michael Hingson ** 51:16 yeah, they're, they're, they're fun. So what do people assume about you that isn't true or that you don't think is true?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 51:25 People say, I'm quiet at times, guess going back to childhood, but there's time, there's situation. It's it's situational. There's times where I don't have to be the loudest person in the room or or be the one to talk the most, I can hang back and observe, but I would not categorize myself as quiet, you know, like I said, it's environmental. But now I've got plenty to say. You just have to engage me, I guess.   Michael Hingson ** 51:56 Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting. I'm trying to remember   Michael Hingson ** 52:04 on Shark Tank, what's Mark's last name, Cuban. Cuban. It's interesting to watch Mark on Shark Tank. I don't know whether he's really a quiet person normally, but I see when I watch Shark Tank. The other guys, like Mr. Wonderful with Kevin are talking all the time, and Mark just sits back and doesn't say anything for the longest period of time, and then he drops a bomb and bids and wins. Right? He's just really clever about the way he does it. I think there's a lot to be said for not just having to speak up every single time, but rather really thinking things through. And he clearly does that,   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 52:46 yeah, yeah, you have to appreciate that. And I think that's part of the reason that you know, when I came time to do a podcast, I did a panel show, because I'm surrounded by bright, interesting, articulate people, you included as coming on with us and and I don't have to fill every second. I can, I can, I, you know, I can intake information and think for a second and then maybe have a   Michael Hingson ** 53:15 response. Well, I think that makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? I mean, it's the way it really ought to be.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 53:20 Yeah, if you got to fill an hour by yourself, you're always on, right?   Michael Hingson ** 53:26 Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I know when I travel to speak. I figure that when I land somewhere, I'm on until I leave again. So I always enjoy reading books, especially going and coming on airplanes. And then I can be on the whole time. I am wherever I have to be, and then when I get on the airplane to come home, I can relax again.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 53:45 Now, I like that. And I know, you keynote, I think I'd rather moderate, you know, I'll say something when I have something to say, and let other people talk for a while. Well, you gotta, you have a great story, and you're, you know, I'm glad you're getting it out there.   Michael Hingson ** 53:58 Well, if anybody needs a keynote speaker. Just saying, for everybody listening, feel free to email me. I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at Michael H i@accessibe.com or speaker at Michael hingson.com always looking for speaking engagements. Then we got that one in. I'm glad, but, but you know, for you, is there a podcast episode that you haven't done, that you really want to do, that just seems to be eluding you?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 54:28 There are a couple that got away. I wanted to do one about Sesame Street because it was without a it was looking like it was going to be without a home. And that's such a hallmark of my childhood. And so many, yeah, I think they worked out a deal, which is probably what I was going to propose with. It's like a CO production deal with Netflix. So it seems like they're safe for the foreseeable future. But what was the other I think there's, there's at least one or two more where maybe the guests didn't line up, or. Or the timeliness didn't work. I was going to have someone connected to Big Lots. You remember Big Lots? I think they're still around to some degree, but I think they are, come on and tell me their story, because they've, you know, they've been on the brink of extinction for a little while. So it's usually, it's either a timing thing, with the with with the guest, or the news cycle has just maybe gone on and moved past us.   Michael Hingson ** 55:28 But, yeah, I know people wrote off Red Lobster for a while, but they're still around.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 55:35 They're still around. That would be a good one. Yeah, their endless shrimp didn't do them any favors. No, that didn't help a whole lot, but it's the companies, even the ones we've done already, you know, they they're still six months later. Toilet hasn't been even a full year of our show yet, but in a year, I bet there's, you know, we could revisit them all over again, and they're still going to find themselves in, I don't know, hot water, but some kind of controversy for one reason or another. And we'll, we'll try to help them out again.   Michael Hingson ** 56:06 Have you seen any successes from the podcast episodes where a company did listen to you and has made some changes?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 56:15 I don't know that. I can correlate one to one. We know that they listen. We can look at the metrics and where the where the list listens, are coming from, especially with LinkedIn, gives you some engagement and tells you which companies are paying attention. So we know that they are and they have now, whether they took that and, you know, implemented it, we have a disclaimer saying, Don't do it. You know, we're not there to give you unfiltered legal advice. You know, don't hold us accountable for anything we say. But if we said something good and you like it, do it. So, you know, I don't know to a T if they have then we probably given away billions of dollars worth of fixes. But, you know, I don't know the correlation between those who have listened and those who have acted on something that we might have, you know, alluded to or set out, right? But it has. We've been the times that we take it really seriously. We've we've predicted some things that have come come to pass.   Michael Hingson ** 57:13 That's cool, yeah. Well, you certainly had a great career, and you've done a lot of interesting things. If you had to suddenly change careers and do something entirely different from what you're doing, what would it be?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 57:26 Oh, man, my family laughs at me, but I think it would be a furniture salesman. There you go. Yeah, I don't know why. There's something about it's just enough repetition and just enough creativity. I guess, where people come in, you tell them, you know you, they tell you their story, you know, you get to know them. And then you say, Oh, well, this sofa would be amazing, you know, and not, not one with endless varieties, not one with with two models somewhere in between. Yeah, I think that would be it keeps you on your feet.   Michael Hingson ** 58:05 Furniture salesman, well, if you, you know, if you get too bored, math is homes and Bob's furniture probably looking for people.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 58:12 Yeah, I could probably do that at night.   Michael Hingson ** 58:18 What advice do you give to people who are just starting out, or what kinds of things do you would you give to people we have ideas and thoughts?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 58:27 So I've done a lot of mentoring. I've done a lot of one on one calls. They told I always work with an organization. They told me I did 100 plus calls. I always tell people to take use the create their own momentum, so you can apply for things, you can stand in line, you can wait, or you can come up with your own idea and test it out and say, I'm doing this. Who wants in? And the minute you have an idea, people are interested. You know, you're on to something. Let me see what that's all about. You know, I want to be one of the three that you're looking for. So I tell them, create their own momentum. Try to flip the power dynamic. So if you're asking for a job, how do you get the person that you're asking to want something from you and and do things that are take on, things that are within your control?   Michael Hingson ** 59:18 Right? Right? Well, if you had to go back and tell the younger Aaron something from years ago, what would you give him in the way of advice?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 59:30 Be more vulnerable. Don't pretend you know everything. There you go. And you don't need to know everything. You need to know what you know. And then get a little better and get a little better.   Michael Hingson ** 59:43 One of the things that I constantly tell people who I hire as salespeople is you can be a student, at least for a year. Don't hesitate to ask your customers questions because they're not out to. Get you. They want you to succeed. And if you interact with your customers and you're willing to learn from them, they're willing to teach, and you'll learn so much that you never would have thought you would learn. I just think that's such a great concept.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 1:00:12 Oh, exactly right. Yeah. As soon as I started saying that to clients, you know, they would throw out an industry term. As soon as I've said I don't know what that is, can you explain it to me? Yeah? And they did, and the world didn't fall apart. And I didn't, you know, didn't look like the idiot that I thought I would when we went on with our day. Yeah, that whole protective barrier that I worked so hard to keep up as a facade, I didn't have to do it, and it was so freeing. Yeah, yeah, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:41 I hear you. Well, this has been fun. We've been doing it for an hour. Can you believe it? Oh, hey, that was a quick hour. I know it was a lot of fun. Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank you all for listening. Please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening or watching. We really appreciate it. We value your thoughts. I'd love to hear from you and get your thoughts on our episode today. And I'm sure Aaron would like that as well, and I'll give you an email address in a moment. But Aaron, if people want to reach out to you and maybe use your services, how do they do that?   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 1:01:12 Yeah, so two ways you can check me out, at double zebra, z, E, B, R, A, double zebra.com and the podcast, I encourage you to check out too. We fixed it. Pod.com, we fixed it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:25 Pod.com, there you go. So reach out to Aaron and get marketing stuff done and again. Thank you all. My email address, if you'd like to talk to us, is Michael, H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and if you know anyone else who you think ought to be a guest on our podcast, we'd love it if you give us an introduction. We're always looking for people, so please do and again. Aaron, I just want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun.   Aaron Wolpoff, ** 1:01:58 That was great. Thanks for having me. Michael,   **Michael Hingson ** 1:02:05 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

This court is now in session. My Cousin Vinny for the defense. Does this film have a case as a comedy classic? We give our arguments on the matter. Music from https://filmmusic.io "Glitter Blast" by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/) All our social media links:  https://linktr.ee/rewatchingthemagic If you're able, please give blood. The American Red Cross: https://www.redcross.org/ Immigrant Legal Resource Center: http://www.ilrc.org Trans Life: http:/www.translife.org Reproductive rights are human rights. LGBTQ+ rights are human rights.

Jensyn Storhoff was selected as a Beck's Player with Heart because of her involvement and dedication to her school, sports, and community. Jensyn plays volleyball, basketball, and softball, doing her best to set an example for her teammates and younger kids in the stands. She loves the competition and enjoys being able to compete with her friends. Jensyn says her involvement with sports has taught her the importance of hard work, resilience, mental toughness, and dedication to reach her goals, all things that will benefit her throughout her life. In school, Jensyn participates in several activities, including student council, the National Honor Society, band, and will serve as president for her FFA chapter this year. She also volunteers for the American Red Cross for local blood drives, has refereed youth basketball games, and helps during youth volleyball and basketball camps. Jensyn is also a dedicated member of her church, where she helps serve food, reads during service, helps with Sunday School, and is an acolyte. Jensyn shows her commitment to the agriculture industry through her work on her family's farm. She has found an appreciation and love for the land, animals, and hard work. Agriculture is in her blood, and she has developed a passion for it after seeing the amount of selflessness that goes into it and how it supports local economies. Jensyn plans to play basketball in college and study pre-veterinary medicine, with hopes of being accepted into veterinary school.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

As you will learn, our guest this time, Walden Hughes, is blind and has a speech issue. However, as you also will discover none of this has stopped Walden from doing what he wants and likes. I would not say Walden is driven. Instead, I would describe Walden as a man of vision who works calmly to accomplish whatever task he wishes to undertake. Walden grew up in Southern California including attending and graduating from the University of California at Irvine. Walden also received his Master's degree from UCI. Walden's professional life has been in the financial arena where he has proven quite successful. However, Walden also had other plans for his life. He has had a love of vintage radio programs since he was a child. For him, however, it wasn't enough to listen to programs. He found ways to meet hundreds of people who were involved in radio and early television. His interviews air regularly on www.yesterdayusa.net which he now directs. Walden is one of those people who works to make life better for others through the various entertainment projects he undertakes and helps manage. I hope you find Walden's life attitude stimulating and inspiring. About the Guest: With deep roots in U.S. history and a lifelong passion for nostalgic entertainment, Walden Hughes has built an impressive career as an entertainment consultant, producer, and historian of old-time radio. Since beginning his collection in 1976, he has amassed over 50,000 shows and has gone on to produce live events, conventions, and radio recreations across the country, interviewing over 200 celebrities along the way. A graduate of UC Irvine with both a BA in Economics and Political Science and an MBA in Accounting/Finance, he also spent a decade in the investment field before fully embracing his love of entertainment history. His leadership includes serving as Lions Club President, President of Radio Enthusiasts of Puget Sound, and long-time board member of SPERDVAC, earning numerous honors such as the Eagle Scout rank, Herb Ellis Award, and the Dick Beals Award. Today, he continues to preserve and celebrate the legacy of radio and entertainment through Yesterday USA and beyond. Ways to connect with Walden: SPERDVAC: https://m.facebook.com/sperdvacconvention/ Yesterday USA: https://www.facebook.com/share/16jHW7NdCZ/?mibextid=wwXIfr REPS: https://www.facebook.com/share/197TW27jRi/?mibextid=wwXIfr About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset, where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. We're going to deal with all of that today. We have a guest who I've known for a while. I didn't know I knew him as long as I did, but yeah, but we'll get to that. His name is Walden Hughes, and he is, among other things, the person who is the driving force now behind a website yesterday USA that plays 24 hours a day old radio shows. What I didn't know until he told me once is that he happened to listen to my show back on K UCI in Irvine when I was doing the Radio Hall of Fame between 1969 and 1976 but I only learned that relatively recently, and I didn't actually meet Walden until a few years ago, when we moved down to Victorville and we we started connecting more, and I started listening more to yesterday, USA. We'll talk about some of that. But as you can tell, we're talking, once again, about radio and vintage radio programs, old radio programs from the 30s, 40s and 50s, like we did a few weeks ago with Carl Amari. We're going to have some other people on. Walden is helping us get some other people onto unstoppable mindset, like, in a few weeks, we're going to introduce and talk with Zuzu. Now, who knows who Zuzu is? I know Walden knows, but I'll bet most of you don't. Here's a clue. Whenever a bell rings, an angel gets his wingsu was the little girl on. It's a Wonderful Life. The movie played by Carol from Yeah, and she the star was Carolyn Grimes, and we've met Carolyn. Well, we'll get to all that. I've talked enough. Walden, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're   Walden Hughes ** 03:19 here. Hello, Michael boy, I mean, you, you had John Roy on years ago, and now you finally got to me that's pretty amazing.   Michael Hingson ** 03:25 Well, you know, we should have done it earlier, but that's okay, but, but you know what they say, the best is always saved for last.   Walden Hughes ** 03:34 Hey. Well, you know, considering you've been amazing with this show on Friday night for the last year. So here yesterday, USA, so we you and I definitely know our ins and outs. So this should be an easy our place talk.   Michael Hingson ** 03:47 Yes. Is this the time to tell people that Walden has the record of having 42 tootsie rolls in his mouth at once?   Walden Hughes ** 03:52 That's what they say. I think we could do more, though, you know. But yeah, yeah. Well, we won't ask, miss, yeah, we won't ask you to do that here. Why not?   Michael Hingson ** 04:03 Yeah, we want you to be able to talk. Well, I'm really glad you're here. Tell us a little about the early Walden growing up and all that.   Walden Hughes ** 04:12 I'm my mom and dad are from Nebraska, so I have a lot of Midwestern Nebraska ties. They moved out here for jobs in 65 and I was born in 1966 and I was the first baby to ever survive the world Pierre syndrome, which means I was born with a cleft palate, being extremely near sighted and and a cup and a recession. So I was the first baby through my mom and dad debt by $10,000 in 17 days, and it was a struggle for my folks. You know, in those early days, without insurance, without any. Thing like that. You know, people really didn't think about medical insurance and things like that in those days, that was not an issue. So, um, so I've always had extremely loving family. Then I went through five retina detachments, and starting when I was seven years old, up to I was nine, and I finally woke up one morning seeing white half circle so the retina detached. Sometime in the middle of the night, went to the most famous eye doctor the world at times, Dr Robert macchermer, who was the one who invented the cataract surgery and everything. Later, he wound up being the head of Duke Medical that was down in Florida, and they took one last ditch effort to save my sight, but it was a 2% chance, and it didn't work out. So they went blind in November 75 and went into school for people who may or may not know California pretty aggressive in terms of education, and so when I wear hearing aids, so I parted a hard of hearing class. Newport school. Mesa took care of the kids who were hard of hearing and the blind children went up to Garden Grove. So when I walked my site, went up to Garden Grove. And so that was my dedication. I was always a driven person. So and I also had a family that supported me everything I ever did. They didn't it just they were ultimately supporting me in education, all sorts of stuff. So I wound up in the Boy Scout Program. Wound up being an Eagle Scout like you, wound up being visual honoring the OA. And this was always side of kids. I was sort of the organizer all decided kid, and there was Walden that was right, I was that way in my entire life, which is interesting that the most kids are all hanging out. We were sighted and and even the school district, which was pretty amazing to think about it, Newport, they told my mom and dad, hey, when Wong ready to come back to his home school district, we'll cover the bill. We'll do it. And so my freshman year, after my freshman year in high school, we thought, yeah, it's time to come back. And so the Newport school, Mesa picked up the tab, and so did very well. Went up, applied to seven colleges, Harvard, a Yale Stanford turned me down, but everybody else took me   Michael Hingson ** 07:53 so, but you went to the best school anyway.   Walden Hughes ** 07:57 So I mean, either like Michael Troy went to UCI and I graduated in three years and two quarters with a degree in economics, a degree in politics, a minor in management, and then I went to work as a financial planner with American Express and then a stockbroker. I always wanted to go back get my MBA. So I got my MBA at UCI, and I graduated with my MBA in accounting and finance in 1995 so that's sort of the academic part Wow of my life.   Michael Hingson ** 08:32 How did your parents handle when it was first discovered that you were blind? So that would have been in what 75 how do they handle that?   Walden Hughes ** 08:42 They handle it really well. I think my dad was wonderful. My dad was the one that took, took me my birth, to all the doctor appointments, you know, such a traumatic thing for my mom. So my dad took that responsibility. My mom just clean house. But they, they My dad always thought if I were going to make it through life, it was going to be between my ears. It could be my brain and I, I was gifted and academically in terms of my analytical abilities are really off the chart. They tested me like in 160 and that mean I could take a very complicated scenario, break it down and give you a quick answer how to solve it within seconds. And that that that paid off. So no, I think, and they they had complete and so they put in the time.   Michael Hingson ** 09:47 What kind of work did your dad do? My dad   Walden Hughes ** 09:51 wound up being a real estate agent, okay, and so that gave him flexibility time. My mom wound up working for the Irvine camp. Attorney, which is the big agriculture at that time, now, apartments and commercial real estate here in oil County and so. So with their support and with the emphasis on education, and so they helped me great. They helped my brother a great deal. So I think in my case, having two really actively involved parents paid off, you know, in terms of, they knew where to support me and they knew the one to give me my give me my head, you know, because I would a classic example of this. After I graduated from college at UCI, I was looking for work, and mom said, my mom's saying, oh, keep go to rehab. Talk to them. They're both to help you out, give it. I really wasn't interested, so I sat down and met with them and had several interviews, and they said we're not going to fund you because either A, you're gonna be so successful on your own you pay for your own stuff, or B, you'll completely fail. So when I, and that's when they flat out, told me at rehab, so I I had more more luck in the private sector finding work than I did ever in the public sector, which was interesting.   Michael Hingson ** 11:39 I know that when I was in high school, and they it's still around today, of course, they had a program called SSI through the Department of Social Security, and then that there, there was also another program aid of the potentially self supporting blind, and we applied for those. And when I went to UC Irvine, I had met, actually, in 1964 a gentleman while I was up getting my guide dog. He was getting a guide dog. His name was Howard Mackey, and when I went to college, my parents also explored me getting some services and assistance from the Department of Rehabilitation, and I was accepted, and then Howard Mackey ended up becoming my counselor. And the neat thing about it was he was extremely supportive and really helped in finding transcribers to put physics books in braille, paid for whatever the state did it at the time, readers and other things like that that I needed provided equipment. It was really cool. He was extremely supportive, which I was very grateful for. But yeah, I can understand sometimes the rehabilitation world can be a little bit wonky. Of course, you went into it some 18 to 20 years later than that. I, in a sense, started it because I started in 6869 Yeah. And I think over time, just the state got cheaper, everything got cheaper. And of course, now it's really a lot different than it used to be, and it's a lot more challenging to get services from a lot of the agencies. And of course, in our current administration, a lot of things are being cut, and nobody knows exactly what's going to happen. And that's pretty   Walden Hughes ** 13:30 scary, actually. When I went to UCI, the school picked it up the pic, the school picked up my transcribing. They picked up my readers and all that. So interesting. How?   Michael Hingson ** 13:39 But did they let you hire your own readers and so on? Or do they do that?   Walden Hughes ** 13:43 They just put out the word, and people came up and and they paid them. So they just, they were just looking for volunteer, looking for people on the campus to do all the work. And, yeah, in fact, in fact, I had one gal who read pretty much all my years. She was waiting to get a job in the museum. And the job she wanted, you basically had to die to get it open. And so she for a full time employee with the read, can I be taking 20 units a quarter? Yeah. So I was, I was cranking it out. And in those days, everybody, you were lucky they I was lucky to get the material a week or two before midterm. Yeah, so I would speed up the tape and do a couple all nighters just to get through, because I really didn't want to delay, delay by examinations. I wanted to get it, get it through. But, uh, but, you know, but also, I guess I was going four times just throughout the quarter, set them into the summer. Okay, I wanted to get it done. Yeah, so that's, that's how I   Michael Hingson ** 14:50 did it. I didn't do summer school, but I did 16 to 20 units a quarter as well, and kept readers pretty busy and was never questioned. And even though we have some pretty hefty reader bills, but it it worked, no and and I hired my own readers, we put out the word, but I hired my own readers. And now I think that's really important. If a school pays for the readers, but lets you hire the readers, that's good, because I think that people need to learn how to hire and fire and how to learn what's necessary and how to get the things that they need. And if the agency or the school does it all and they don't learn how to do it, that's a problem.   Walden Hughes ** 15:36 If fashioning is just a sidebar issue, computer really became a big part. And with my hearing loss, TSI was really, yeah, telesensory, the one Incorporated, right? And they were upscale, everybody. It was, you know, $2,500 a pop. And for my hearing, it was the was for the card, the actual card that fits into the slot that would read, oh, okay, okay, right. And eventually they went with software with me, a lot cheaper, yes, and so, so my folks paid for that in the early days, the mid 80s, the computers and the software and a lot of that were trial and error terms of there was not any customer support from the from the computer company that were making special products like that, you were pretty much left on your own to figure it out. Yeah, and so time I went to graduate in 1990 we figured, in the business world, financial planning, I'm gonna need a whole complete setup at work, and we're gonna cost me 20 grand, yeah, and of course, when we have saying, We biking it, we're gonna finance it. What happened was, and this has helped with the scouting program. I knew the vice president of the local bank. And in those days, if it was, if it was still a small bank, he just went, he gave me a personal loan, hmm, and he, I didn't have to get any code centers or anything. No, we're gonna be the first one to finance you. You get your own computer set up. And so they, they, they financed it for me, and then also Boyle kicked in for 7500 but that was, that's how I was able to swing my first really complicated $20,000 units in 1990   Michael Hingson ** 17:33 the Braille Institute had a program. I don't know whether they still do or not they, they had a program where they would pay for, I don't know whether the top was 7500 I know they paid for half the cost of technology, but that may have been the upper limit. I know I used the program to get in when we moved, when we moved to New Jersey. I was able to get one of the, at that time, $15,000 Kurzweil Reading machines that was in 1996 and Braille Institute paid for half that. So it was pretty cool. But you mentioned TSI, which is telesensory Systems, Inc, for those who who wouldn't know that telesensory was a very innovative company that developed a lot of technologies that blind and low vision people use. For example, they developed something called the optic on which was a box that had a place where you could put a finger, and then there was attached to it a camera that you could run over a printed page, and it would display in the box a vibrating image of each character as the camera scanned across the page. It wasn't a really fast reading program. I think there were a few people who could read up to 80 words a minute, but it was still originally one of the first ways that blind people had access to print.   Walden Hughes ** 18:59 And the first guinea pig for the program. Can I just walk my site in 75 and they, they wanted me to be on there. I was really the first one that the school supply the optic on and has special training, because they knew I knew what site looked like for everybody, what Mike's describing. It was dB, the electronic waves, but it'd be in regular print letters, not, not broil waters, right? What   Michael Hingson ** 19:25 you felt were actually images of the print letters, yeah.   Walden Hughes ** 19:30 And the thing got me about it, my hand tingled after a while,   Michael Hingson ** 19:35 yeah, mine   Walden Hughes ** 19:36 to last forever,   Michael Hingson ** 19:38 you know. So it was, it wasn't something that you could use for incredibly long periods of time. Again, I think a few people could. But basically, print letters are made to be seen, not felt, and so that also limited the speed. Of course, technology is a whole lot different today, and the optic on has has faded away. And as Walden said, the card that would. Used to plug into computer slots that would verbalize whatever came across the screen has now given way to software and a whole lot more that makes it a lot more usable. But still, there's a lot of advances to be made. But yeah, we we both well, and another thing that TSI did was they made probably the first real talking calculator, the view, plus, remember   Walden Hughes ** 20:25 that? Yep, I know a good sound quality.   Michael Hingson ** 20:28 Though it was good sound quality. It was $395 and it was really a four function calculator. It wasn't scientific or anything like that, but it still was the first calculator that gave us an opportunity to have something that would at least at a simple level, compete with what sighted people did. And yes, you could plug your phone so they couldn't so sighted people, if you were taking a test, couldn't hear what what the calculator was saying. But at that time, calculators weren't really allowed in the classroom anyway, so   Walden Hughes ** 21:00 my downside was, time I bought the equipment was during the DOS mode, and just like that, window came over, and that pretty much made all my equipment obsolete, yeah, fairly quickly, because I love my boil display. That was terrific for for when you learn with computers. If you're blind, you didn't really get a feel what the screen looked like everybody. And with a Braille display, which mine was half the screen underneath my keyboard, I could get a visual feel how things laid out on the computer. It was easier for me to communicate with somebody. I knew what they were talking   Michael Hingson ** 21:42 about, yeah. And of course, it's gotten so much better over time. But yeah, I remember good old MS DOS. I still love to play some of the old MS DOS games, like adventure and all that, though, and Zork and some of those fun games.   Walden Hughes ** 21:57 But my understanding dos is still there. It's just windows on top of it, basically,   Michael Hingson ** 22:02 if you open a command prompt in Windows that actually takes you to dos. So dos is still there. It is attached to the whole system. And sometimes you can go in and enter commands through dos to get things done a little bit easier than you might be able to with the normal graphic user interface, right? Well, so you, you got your master's degree in 1995 and so you then continue to work in the financial world, or what did   Walden Hughes ** 22:35 it for 10 years, but five years earlier? Well, maybe I should back it up this way. After I lost my site in 1976 I really gravitated to the radio, and my generation fell in love with talk radio, so I and we were really blessed here in the LA market with really terrific hosts at KBC, and it wasn't all the same thing over and over and beating the drum. And so listening to Ray Breen, Michael Jackson, IRA for still kill Hemingway, that was a great opportunity for somebody who was 10 years old.   Michael Hingson ** 23:18 Really, they were all different shows. And yes, I remember once we were listening to, I think it was Michael Jackson. It was on Sunday night, and we heard this guy talking about submarines, and it just attracted Karen's and my attention. And it turns out what it was was Tom Clancy talking about Hunt for Red October. Wow. And that's where we first heard about it, and then went and found the book.   Walden Hughes ** 23:45 But So I grew up in the talk radio, and then that, and I fell in love with country music at the time on koec, and then Jim Healy and sports, yep, and then, and then we were blessed in the LA market have a lot of old time radio played, and it was host like Mike was here at K UCI, John Roy, eventually over KPCC, Bob line. And so my relatives said you should listen to this marathon KPFK, which was a Pacific did an all day marathon. I fell in love with that. Jay Lacher, then one night, after I walked my site, I tuned in. Ray bream took the night off, and Bill balance had frankly sit in. And the first thing they played was Jack Armstrong, and this is where Jack, Jack and Billy get caught up in a snow storm and a bone down the hill. And Brett Morrison came in during the one o'clock two o'clock hour to talk about the shadow. And so my dad took me to, oh, I'm trying to think of the name of the record. Or if they gave away licorice, licorice at the at the record store tower, yeah, not Tower Records. Um, anyway, so we bought two eight track tapes in 1976 the shadow and Superman, and I started my long life of collecting and so. So here we up to 1990 after collecting for 15 years. Going to spill back conventional meetings. I knew Ray bream was going to have kitty Cowan at the guest. Kitty Cowan was a big band singer of the 40s who later the fifth little things mean a lot. And I figured nobody was going to act about her days on the Danny Kaye radio show. And so I called in. They realized I had the stuff. I had the radio shows, they took me off the air, and Kitty's husband, but grand off called me the next day, and we struck up a friendship. And so they were really connected in Hollywood, and so they opened so many doors for me. Mike I Katie's best friend with Nancy Lacher, SR bud with the one of the most powerful agents in town, the game show hosting, who could come up with a TV ideas, but did not know how to run a organization. So that was Chuck Paris, hmm, and Gong Show, yeah, so I wound up, they wound up giving me, hire me to find the old TV shows, the music, all that stuff around the country. And so I started to do that for the Sinatra family, everybody else. So I would, while we do the financial planning, my internet consulting thing really took off. So that wound up being more fun and trying to sell disability insurance, yeah. So one wound up doing that until the internet took over. So that would that. So my whole life would really reshape through kitty Carolyn and Ben granoff through that. So I really connected in the Hollywood industry from that point on, starting 1990 so that that really opened up, that really sure reshaped my entire life, just because of that   Michael Hingson ** 27:28 and you've done over the years, one of the other things that you started to do was to interview a lot of these people, a lot of the radio stars, The radio actors   Walden Hughes ** 27:39 and music and TV, music,   Michael Hingson ** 27:44 yeah.   Walden Hughes ** 27:45 And I think when Bill Bragg asked me to interview kitty Carol, and I did that in 2000 and Bill said, Well, could you do more? And so one of Kitty friends, but test Russell. Test was Gene Autry Girl Friday. He she ran kmpc for him. And I think everybody in the music industry owed her a favor. I mean, I had Joe Stafford to Pat Boone to everybody you could think of from the from that big band, 3040s, and 60s on the show. Let's go   Michael Hingson ** 28:24 back. Let's go back. Tell us about Bill Bragg.   Walden Hughes ** 28:29 Bill Bragg was an interesting character all by himself. Born in 1946 he was a TV camera man for CBS in Dallas. He was also a local music jockey, nothing, nothing, big, big claims of fame boys working for channel two. And then he in Dallas, he was at a press conference with LBJ, and LBJ got done speaking, and the camera crew decided that they were going to pack up and go to lunch. And Bill thought it'd be fun to mark what camera, what microphone the President used for his address, and the guys were in a rush door in the box, let's go have lunch. So Bill lost track, and that bothered him. So he started the largest communication Museum in 1979 and he collected and was donated. And so he had the biggest museum. He had a film exchanger. So in those early days of cable TVs, you know, we had a lot of TV stations specializing in programming, and there were channels, I think this was called a nostalgic channel, wanted to run old TV shows and films. They had the film, but they didn't. Have the equipment. And they got hold of Bill. He said, Okay, I'll do it for you. But what you're going to give me is games. Bill was a wheel and dealer, yeah. And Charlie said, We'll give you your own satellite channel. And I was talking to Bill friend later, John women in those days, in the 1983 when Bill got it, the value of those satellite channels was a million dollars a year, and he got it for free. And Bill would try and figure out, What in the world I'm going to do with this, and that's when he decided to start playing with old time radio, because really nobody was playing that on a national basis. You had different people playing it on a local basis, but not really on a national basis. So Bill was sort of the first one before I play old time radio. I became aware of him because of bur back, so I was trying to get the service on my cable TV company. Was unsuccessful.   Michael Hingson ** 30:58 So what he did is he broadcast through the satellite channel, and then different television stations or companies could if they chose to pick up the feed and broadcast it. Did, they broadcast it on a TV channel or   Walden Hughes ** 31:13 on radio public asset channel. Okay, so remember note day a lot of public it would have the bulletin boards with the local news of right community, and lot of them would play Bill can't   Michael Hingson ** 31:28 play Bill's channel because the only because what they were doing was showing everything on the screen, which didn't help us. But right they would show things on the screen, and they would play music or something in the background. So Bill's programs were a natural thing to play,   Walden Hughes ** 31:44 yeah, and so Bill wound up on a stout then he wound up being the audio shop Troyer for WGN, which was a nice break and so. And then Bill got it to be played in 2000 nursing homes and hospitals, and then local AMFM stations would pick us up. They were looking for overnight programming, so local throughout the country would pick it up. And so Bill, Bill was a go getter. He was a great engineer, and knew how to build things on the cheap. He was not a businessman, you know, he couldn't take it to the next level, but, but at least he was able to come up with a way to run a station, 24 hours a day. It was all the tapes were sent down to Nash, down to Tennessee, to be uploaded to play into the system. Eventually, he built a studio and everything in Dallas. And so,   Michael Hingson ** 32:38 of course, what what Weldon is saying is that that everything was on tape, whether it was cassette or reel to reel, well, reel to reel, and they would play the tapes through a tape machine, a player or recorder, and put it out on the satellite channels, which was how they had to do it. And that's how we did it at kuci, we had tape, and I would record on Sunday nights, all the shows that we were going to play on a given night on a reel of tape. We would take it in and we would play it.   Walden Hughes ** 33:13 And so that's how it's done in the 80s. Eventually built bill, built a studio, and then started to do a live show once a week. Eventually, they grew up to four days a week. And so here is about 1999 or so, and they were playing Musa from kitty cat, and did not know who she was. I would quickly, I would quickly give a couple background from AIM hang up. I didn't really they had no idea who I was yet. I didn't talk about what I would do and things like that. I was just supplying information. And eventually, after two years, they asked me to bring kitty on the show, which I did, and then I started to book guests on a regular basis for them, and then eventually, the guy who I enjoyed all time radio shows listening to Frank Percy 1976 built decided that I should be his producer, and so I wound up producing the Friday Night Live show with Frankie, and eventually we got it up and running, 2002 So Frank and I did it together for 16 years and so that so Bill built a studio in Texas, mailed it all to my House. My dad didn't have any engineering ability. So he and my bill got on the phone and built me a whole studio in six hours, and I was up and running with my own studio here in my bedroom, in 2002 and so overhead, I'm in my bedroom ever since Michael, you know, there you go.   Michael Hingson ** 34:58 Well and to tell people about. Frank Bresee Frank, probably the biggest claim to fame is that he had a program called the golden days of radio, and it was mainly something that was aired in the Armed Forces Radio and Television Service on the radio, where he would every show play excerpts of different radio programs and so on. And one of the neat things that's fascinating for Frank was that because he was doing so much with armed forces, and doing that, he had access to all of the libraries around the world that the Armed Forces Radio and Television Service had, so he could go in and oftentimes get shows and get things that no one else really had because they were only available in at least initially, in these military libraries. But he would put them on the air, and did a great job with it for many, many years. Yeah, Frank   Walden Hughes ** 35:53 was an interesting character, a pure entrepreneur. He invented a game called pass out, which was a drinking game, board game, and he for 20 years, he spent six months in Europe, six months in United States. And he was making so much money in Europe, he would rent out castles and lived in them, and he would and he would spend months at a time in Germany, which was the main headquarter of art, and just sit there in the archives and make copies of things he wanted to play on his show, yeah. And so that's how he built that. And then he he started collecting transcriptions when he would to 10 he was a radio actor, and so he had one of the largest collection, collection, and he his house, his family house was in Hancock Park, which was the, it was Beverly Hills before Beverly Hills, basically, what did he play on radio? Well, when he was, he was he was deceptive. He was the backup little beaver. When someone Tommy, writer, yeah, when, when Tommy Cook had another project, it was Frank be was a substitute. And so that was a short coin of fame. He did bit parts on other shows, but, but that's what he did as a kid. Eventually, I think Frank came from a very wealthy family. He wound up owning the first radio station when he was 19 years old on Catalina Island in 1949 and then he wound up being a record producer. He worked with Walter Winchell, created albums on without about Al Jolson worked on Eddie Cantor and Jimmy Durante and anyway, Frank, Frank had a career with game with creating board games, doing radio and having an advertising company. Frank was responsible for giving all the game shows, the prices for TV and the way he would do it, he would call an advertise, he would call a company. He said, you want your product. Beyond on this section, go to say, yes, okay, give us, give us the product, and give me 150 bucks. And so Frank would keep the cash, and he would give the project to the TV shows,   Michael Hingson ** 38:17 Dicker and Dicker of Beverly Hills. I remember that on so many shows   Walden Hughes ** 38:23 so So Frank was a wheeling dealer, and he loved radio. That was his passion project. He probably made less money doing that, but he just loved doing it, and he was just hit his second house. The family house was 8400 square feet, and so it was pretty much a storage unit for Frank hobbies, right? And we and he had 30,000 transcriptions in one time. But when he was Europe, he had a couple of floods, so he lost about 10 to 20,000 of them. Okay? Folks did not know how to keep them dry, but he had his professional studio built. And so I would book guests. I arranged for art link writer to come over, and other people, Catherine Crosby, to come over, and Frank would do the interviews. And so I was a big job for me to keep the Friday night show going and get Frankie's guess boy shows. I would have been. He died,   Michael Hingson ** 39:22 and he was a really good interviewer. Yeah, I remember especially he did an interview that we in, that you played on yesterday USA. And I was listening to it with Mel Blanc, which is, which is very fascinating. But he was a great interviewer. I think it was 1969 that he started the golden days of radio, starting 49 actually, or 49 not 69 Yeah, 49 that was directly local, on,   Walden Hughes ** 39:49 on Carolina, and K, I, G, l, which was a station I think heard out in the valley, pretty much, yeah, we could pick it up. And then, and then he started with on. Forces around 65   Michael Hingson ** 40:02 that's what I was thinking of. I thought it was 69 but,   Walden Hughes ** 40:06 and well, he was, on those days there were armed forces Europe picked them up. And also, there was also the international Armed Forces served around the far eastern network, right? Yeah. And so by 67 he was pretty much full on 400 stations throughout the whole world. And I that's probably how you guys picked him up, you know, through that capability.   Michael Hingson ** 40:30 Well, that's where I first heard of him and and the only thing for me was I like to hear whole shows, and he played excerpts so much that was a little frustrating. But he was such a neat guy, you couldn't help but love all the history that he brought to it   Walden Hughes ** 40:46 and and then he would produce live Christmas shows with with the radio. He would interview the guest he, you know, so he had access to people that nobody generally had, you know. He worked for Bob Hope, right? So he was able to get to Jack Benny and Bing Crosby and yes, people like that, Groucho Marx. So he was, he had connections that were beyond the average Old Time Radio buff. He was truly a great guy to help the hobby out, and loved radio very much.   Michael Hingson ** 41:21 Well, going back to Bill Bragg a little bit, so he had the satellite channel, and then, of course, we got the internet, which opened so many things for for Frank or Frank for, well, for everybody but for Bill. And he started the program yesterday, usa.net, on the radio through the internet,   Walden Hughes ** 41:44 which he was the first one in 1996 right? There's a great story about that. There was a company called broadcast.com I bet you remember that company, Mike. Anyway, it was founded by a guy who loved college basketball, and he was a big Hoosier fan, and he was living in Texas, and so he would generally call long distance to his buddy, and they would put up the radio. He could went to the basketball games. And eventually he decided, well, maybe I could come up and stream it on my computer, and all these equipment breaking down, eventually he came up with the idea of, well, if I had a satellite dish, I could pick up the feed and put and stream it on the computer, that way people could hear it right. And he hired bill to do that, and he offered bill a full time job installing satellites and working Bill turned them down, and the guy wound up being Mark Cuban. Yeah, and Mark Cuban gave every every employee, when he sold broadcast.com to Yahoo, a million dollar bonus. So Bill missed out on that, but, but in exchange, Mike Cuban gave him broadcast.com While USA channel for free. So Bill never had to pay in the early days, until about 2002 so when Yahoo decided to get out of the streaming business for a while, then that's when we had to find and we found life 365 eventually, and we were paying pretty good. We're paying a really good rate with like 265 Bill was used to paying free, and we were paying, I think, under $100 and I knew guys later a couple years, were paying over $500 a month. And we were, we were, but there was such a willing deal able to get those things for really dope less   Michael Hingson ** 43:45 money, yeah. Now I remember being in New Jersey and I started hearing ads for an internet radio station. This was in the very late 90s, maybe even into 2000 W, A, B, y. It was a company, a show that a station that played a lot of old songs from the 50s and 60s and so on. And it was, it was, if you tuned on to it, you could listen. And after four or five hours, things would start to repeat, and then eventually it disappeared. But I started looking around, and I don't even remember how I found it, but one day I heard about this radio station, www, dot yesterday, usa.net. Right, yep.net.com,   Walden Hughes ** 44:31 yep, and yeah. And   Michael Hingson ** 44:33 I said, Well, oh, I think I actually heard an ad for it on W, A, B, y, when it was still around. Anyway, I went to it, and they were playing old radio shows, and they had a number of people who would come on and play shows. Everyone had an hour and a half show, and every two weeks you would have to send in a new show. But they. They played old radio shows, 24 hours a day and seven days a week, except they also had some live talk shows. And I remember listening one day and heard Bill Bragg talking about the fact that he was going to have his standard Friday night show with Walden Hughes, it would start at nine o'clock. I had no idea who Walden was at the time. And the problem is, nine o'clock was on the in Pacific Time, and it was, I think, Midnight in New Jersey time, as I recall the way it went anyway, it was way too late for me to be up. And so I never did hear Walden on yesterday USA, or I may have actually listened. Just stayed up to listen to one and fell asleep, but the show, the whole innovative process of playing radio all the time on the internet, was intriguing and just opened so many opportunities, I think. And of course, the internet brought all that around. And now there are any number of stations that stream all the time. And Bill Bragg passed away. What in 2016   Walden Hughes ** 46:15 2018   Michael Hingson ** 46:18 1819 2019 Yeah. And Walden now is the person who directs, operates, and is the manager of yesterday USA. And so when I go ahead,   Walden Hughes ** 46:30 it's fascinating. In the height of the station, there was 15,000 internet radio stations out there in 2000 they did a survey yesterday, USA was number three in the world, behind the BBC and CNN, which I thought was a pretty nice number to be concerned. We had no budget to promote, right? And the last time I saw the numbers been a couple years, we were number 44 in the world, which I don't think of, 15,000 radio stations. Not bad. No, not at all. You know, really not bad. But now there is more talk than there used to be, because Walden and the gasmans, who we had on years ago on this podcast, but   Michael Hingson ** 47:16 have interviewed a lot of people, and continue to interview people. And of course, so many people are passing on that. We're trying to talk to people as much as we can, as they can, and all of us now, because I've started to come a little bit and become a little bit involved in yesterday USA. And as Walden said on Friday night at 730 Pacific Time, see it's earlier, we we do a talk show. Bob Lyons, who did a lot of radio out here, and for 50 years, had a program called Don't touch that dial. And John and Larry and Walden and I get on the air and we talk about, Gosh, any number of different things. We've talked about Braille, we've talked about sometimes, everything but radio. But we talk about a lot of different things, which is, which is a lot of fun.   Walden Hughes ** 48:04 And I think it probably is, you know, in the old days, it would pretty much no entertainment, and Bill telling some stories and things like that. But with me, I always had a focus in interviews, but it's so much more fun to do radio as a co host. And that's when Patricia and I connected back in the 2007 I knew was in 2005 she's my co host. And Patricia didn't grow up with whole town radio. She became a fan after she found yesterday, USA into 2000 but she's a very articulate person, and so through the shows, what she and I did on Saturday night, the audience grab it and just we should talk about everything, and I just generate calls. I mean, when she and I were doing eight hours a night, we would average about 18 calls a night, which was pretty amazing, but we would cover the gamut, and I think a really good talk show host had to know a little bit about a lot of things. Yes, he got it. You got to be flexible. And Patricia and I compliment each other that way, that we're able to cover history and politics and music and just everything. And so when I do a show with her, you never know what direction we go with where. When I'm with John Roy, it's more radio centric. So it depends on what night a week people tune in, is what you're going to   Michael Hingson ** 49:40 get. And Walden has Patricia on now Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays, but we know why she's really on there, because she likes hearing Perry Como song Patricia that starts out every show Walden plays that he's in love with Patricia. One of these days, there's still the possibility. But anyway, we. We, he, we love it when he, he has Patricia on, and it's every week. So, so it is really cool. And they do, they talk about everything under the sun, which is so fascinating. Tell us about Johnny and Helen Holmes.   Walden Hughes ** 50:15 Ah, well, it's an interesting story. I I say the second biggest old time radio station in the country, after yesterday USA. It's about half the size in terms of audience basis. Radio once more, and you can find them at Radio once more.com and they do a good job. No else with probably yesterday USA branch offers own internet radio station, and he found he would go to the east coast to the nostalgic convention, and he connected with Johnny and Helen. Holmes and Johnny and Helen are people who love to attend nostalgic convention and get autographs and things. And they became really friends. So Neil convinced them, why don't you come on? Just come on radio once more. And so after a while, they do the presentation the coffee shop. Neil convinced them to take it, take it to the air, and they started to have their own show, and I was aware of them, and I produced the spirback convention, 2017 in Las Vegas. So Johnny helm came to the convention, and Johnny wanted to say hi to me. I said, I know who you are. I think he was for by that that I knew who he was, but I invited Johnny and Helen to come on with Patricia and I one night to talk about their coffee shop presentation and their show on Radio once more. And we just bonded very quickly and easy to bond with Johnny. They really are really fabulous people. He's really a generous guy, and so over the last six, seven years, we have developed a great friendship on you, and almost have created a whole subculture by itself, playing trivia with them. Every time they come on,   Michael Hingson ** 52:17 they do a lot of trivia stuff, and Johnny produces it very well. He really does a great job. And he'll put sound bites and clips and music, and it's gotten me such a major production with Johnny and Helen. And people look forward to it. I sometimes count the interaction people hanging out in the chat room, on the phone, email, about 18 to 20 people will get and get an answer question, was it amazing that that many people will be interested in trivia like that? But and, and Johnny also collects, well, I guess in Helen collect a lot of old television shows as well. Yep. So we won't hold it against him too much, but, but he does television and, well, I like old TV shows too, you bet. Well, so you know, you are, obviously, are doing a lot of different things. You mentioned spurred vac oop. They're after you. We'll wait. We'll wait till the phone die. You mentioned, well, I'll just ask this while that's going on. You mentioned spurred back. Tell us a little bit about what spurred vac is and what they've been doing and what they bring to radio.   Walden Hughes ** 53:23 Sprint vac started in 1974 it's the largest full time radio group in the country, called the society to preserve and encourage radio drama, variety and comedy. John Roy Gasman were two of the main driving force behind the club. It reached up to a membership of 1800 people, and they've honored over 500 people who worked in the golden days of radio and to speak at their meeting, come to the special conventions. And so I attended some dinners at the Brown Derby, which was a great thrill. I started attending their conventions, and it was just, it was wonderful. So I so I really got to meet a lot of the old time radio personality and become friends with Janet Waldo and June for a and people like that. And so I eventually got on the board. I eventually became one young, somewhat retired. I wound up being the activity person to book guests, and started producing conventions. And so that became a major part of my life, just producing those things for spur back and in other places, and I first started to do that for reps. Was it the Old Time Radio Group in Seattle in 2007 so they were actually the first convention I produced.   Michael Hingson ** 54:54 And rep says radio enthusiasts of Puget Sound,   Walden Hughes ** 54:57 right? Reps online.org, G and so I would produce new convention. I was helping super vac, and I also helping the Friends of all time radio back in New Jersey and so. And it probably helped my contact, which is 300 pages long, so, and I would book it. I would also contact celebrities via the mail, and my batting average was 20% which I thought were pretty good. I got Margaret. I got Margaret Truman. She called me, said, Walden, I got your order, and I forgot that I did the show with Jimmy Stewart. I'd be happy to come on talk about my memory. You know, she talked about Fred Allen on the big show, and how, how Mike Wallace had a temper, had a temper. She was a co host. Was among weekdays, which with the weekday version of monitor. Monitor was weekend and weekday, we see NBC. And so she was just fabulous, you know, so and I would get people like that 20% bad average, which was incredible. So I met, that's how it's up to two, my guess was, so I, I was sort of go to guy, find celebrities and booking them and and so in that help yesterday, USA helped the different conventions. And so it and so you're so you're booking the panels, and then you're coming up with ideas for radio recreations. And so I produce 37 of them, ranging from one day to four days. And I get counted, over the last 18 years, I've produced 226 audio theater plays with it. A lot at least, have an idea of how those things   Michael Hingson ** 56:55 work. So right now, speaking of recreations, and we're both involved in radio enthusiasts of Puget Sound, and for the last couple of years, I've participated in this. Walden has done radio recreations, and twice a year up in the Washington State area, where we bring in both some some amateurs and some professionals like Carolyn Grimes Zuzu and so many others who come in and we actually recreate old radio shows, both before a live audience, and we broadcast them on yesterday USA and other people like Margaret O'Brien who won   Walden Hughes ** 57:46 Gigi Powell coming this year. Phil Proctor. David Osmond from fire sign theater. Chuck Dougherty from Sergeant Preston. John Provo from Timmy from Lassie, Bill Johnson, who does a one man show on Bob Hope. Bill Ratner from GI Joe. Bill Owen, the who might have had he is the author of The Big broadcast, Ivan Troy who Bobby Benson, Tommy cook from the life O'Reilly Gigi parole, a movie actress of the 50s, as you mentioned, Carolyn grime, Beverly Washburn and others, and it's just the radio folks are really down to earth, really nice people, and you get to break bread with them, talk to them and reminisce about what was it like doing that radio show, this movie, or that TV show, and then They still got it, and they can perform on stage,   Michael Hingson ** 58:43 and they love to talk about it, and they love to interact with people who treat them as people. And so yeah, it is a lot of fun to be able to do it. In fact, I was on Carolyn Grimes podcast, which will be coming out at some point in the next little while, and Carolyn is going to be on unstoppable mindset. So keep an eye out for that. Bill Owens program is coming out soon. Bill and I did a conversation for unstoppable mindset, and we're going to be doing Bill Johnson will be coming on, and other people will be coming on. Walden has been very helpful at finding some of these folks who are willing to come on and talk about what they did, and to help us celebrate this medium that is just as much a part of history as anything in America and is just as worth listening to as it ever was. There is more to life than television, no matter what they think.   Walden Hughes ** 59:40 And also, we do a Christmas thing too. And hopefully Mike, if his speaking engagement allow him, will be with us up at Christmas saying, Well, I will. I'm planning on it. We're gonna do, It's a Wonderful Life. Keith Scott, coming over from Australia, who's a he's the rich little of Australia. And we'll do, It's a Wonderful Life. We'll do. The Christmas Carol, milk on 34th Street film again, Molly Jack Benny will have a great time.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:07 These are all going to be recreations using the the original scripts from the shows, and that's what makes them fun. And for those of us who don't read print, we do have our scripts in Braille, absolutely so that's kind of fun. Well, Walden, this has been absolutely wonderful. We're going to have to do it some more. Maybe we need to get you, John and Larry all together on that. That might be kind of fun. But I really, I don't think we need a host if you that. No, no, we just, you know, just go on. But this has been really fun. I really enjoy it. If people want to reach out to you, how do they do that?   Walden Hughes ** 1:00:45 Oh, I think they can call my studio number 714-545-2071, I'm in California, or they can email me at Walden shoes at yesterday, usa.com, W, A, l, D, E, N, H, U, C, H, E, S at, y, E, S T, E, R, D, A, y, u, s a.com, I'm the president of radio enthusiast sound, that's reps online.org or on the board of Sper back, which is S, P, E, R, D, V, A, c.com, so while waiting shakes me down, when   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:25 will the showcase actually occur up in Bellevue in Washington?   Walden Hughes ** 1:01:30 That will be September 18, 19 20/21, and then our Christmas one is will be Friday, December five, and Saturday, December the sixth. And then we're also going back and spir back, and I bet we'll see you there. We're going to go back to the Troy Blossom Festival next April, 23 to 26 and we'll know, are we set up to do that now? Yep, looks like that gonna happen? Yeah? Oh, good, yeah. So kick out the phone with Nicholas here a few days ago. So everything's gonna go for that, so that will be good.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:03 Yeah, we will do that. That's cool. Well, thank you for being here, and I want to thank you all for listening. I hope you had fun. This is a little different than a lot of the episodes that we've done, but it's, I think, important and enlightening to hear about this medium into to meet people from it. So thank you for listening wherever you are. We hope that you'll give us a five star review of unstoppable mindset wherever you're listening or watching. Please do that. We'd love to hear from you. You can reach me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and you can also go to our podcast page if you don't find podcasts any other way. Michael hingson.com/podcast, that's m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, n.com/podcast, singular. So thanks again for being here and for listening to the show, and Walden, once again, I want to thank you for being here. This has been great.   Walden Hughes ** 1:03:01 Thank you, Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:07 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Clara Nsenkyire speaks out about the daily reality of living with sickle cell disease. Joined by advocates Alexis Innis, Mary Coleman, and Beth Sinkler, we talk about the need for more research and the need for blood donors. Local organizations like the Fredericksburg Area Sickle Cell Association (fascaonline.com) and the American Red Cross (redcrossblood.org) are stepping up efforts to support affected families. Their message is clear: sickle cell disease can no longer be ignored.  

Anthony says that he did experience abuse and trauma as a youth, but he persevered and came out of his youth a better person for the experiences. He never finished formal college, but he said that the university of life taught him so much more than he could have ever learned through more traditional schooling.   Anthony has had over 3 and a half decades serving as a business consultant, executive coach, and human optimizer, Coach Cudjo has cracked the code on optimizing your body, health, wealth, and life. Coach Cudjo unashamedly tells us of his growing relationship with God that began with a pastor of a new church knocking on his door one day when Anthony was about to commit suicide. The knock on the door stayed his hand.   Today Mr. Cudjo is not only a business consultant and coach, but he also is a pastor himself. My conversation with Anthony is far ranging and covers subjects including his current activities, our personal relationships with God and how Anthony brings all that together through is human optimization system called H3O. He even offers you a free gift of a phone call with him to show you how you can better yourself, your mind, and your spirit connection. Take Anthony up on his offer. You might be quite pleasantly surprised at what happens.     About the Guest:   Founder and Head Coach at Human Optimization 3.0 (H3O), Anthony Cudjo (AKA “Coach Cudjo”), is the leading expert in performance by optimizing various aspects of life, including physical, mental, and emotional health. He has been coined the Teacher of Teachers and the Leader of Leaders! With over three and a half decades as a business consultant, executive coach, and human optimizer, Coach Cudjo has cracked the code on optimizing your body, health, wealth, and life. He will teach you how to tap into and maximize the creative forces of your DNA.   Anthony transforms the lives of individuals and entire communities by teaching the daily mechanics of mastering their physical existence through the synergistic harmonization of spirit, mind, and body. He educates, motivates, and empowers individuals to reconnect with and reactivate their Divine Intelligence (DNA) and harmonize the three power centers that govern our decisions, actions, and external manifestations. He got here by questioning the abuse, doubt, fear, anxiety, and anger in his own life. These feelings and experiences became the bricks of the foundation of his Power-Full new life. Tony is a graduate of the Dale Carnegie School of Leadership and Development and the Landmark Forum. He is an Advanced NLP Practitioner, certified personal trainer, life coach, nutritionist, and metabolic specialist with a background as a professional athlete in boxing, powerlifting, and bodybuilding. As a TV and radio personality, Tony has hosted the "FitnessRx Show" on ESPN Radio, sharing health and wellness insights with a broad audience. 37 years and thousands of clients later, he has cracked the code to Human Optimization, which is H30!   Ways to connect with Anthony:   Website: https://urh3o.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthony-cudjo-a2928567/ Facebook: Facebook.com/Humanoptimization3.0 Instagram: Instagram.com/Humanoptimization3.0 Youtube: Youtube.com/@Humanoptimization3.0     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:

Check out an important back to school segment featuring a bunch of tips and advice from a local representative of the American Red Cross to help keep all our kids safer as they head into their next school year.

Does Bambi still leave us twitterpated? We talk a look at the last film of Disney's Golden Era to find out. Music from https://filmmusic.io "Glitter Blast" by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/) All our social media links:  https://linktr.ee/rewatchingthemagic If you're able, please give blood. The American Red Cross: https://www.redcross.org/ Immigrant Legal Resource Center: http://www.ilrc.org Trans Life: http:/www.translife.org Reproductive rights are human rights. LGBTQ+ rights are human rights.

August 31 is recognized as International Overdose Awareness Day the world's largest annual campaign to end overdose, remember those we have lost, acknowledge the grief of families and friends left behind, and renew our commitment to end overdose and related harms. So, we reached out to our expert resources at McCall Behavioral Health to help us understand how we can address and prevent overdose tragedies in our own famly and community. Then, we'll bring back our friends from Girl Scouts of Connecticut. Learn how this inclusive organization is preparing and empowering the next few generations of female leaders, how you can volunteer as an adult, and get a young woman or girl you care about involved in Girl Scouts. And we'll close with an important back to school segment featuring a bunch of tips and advice from a local representative of the American Red Cross to help keep all our kids safer as they head into their next school year.

As the wind and rain began to die down, people crawled from the wreckage to survey the damages left by Hurricane Katrina. The most common description of what they found was "a warzone."   First came the first responders seeking, listening, for survivors. Then came the Mississippi Army National Guard. They were soon joined by community and business leaders desperately searching for sources of water, food, and fuel to pass along to those in need.   Then came an army of volunteers from across the nation and around the world: from the American Red Cross and countless faith-based and philanthropic groups, to individuals with trucks, trailers, tools, and big hearts.   As the focus moved from rescue to recovery and finally to rebuilding, the physical and emotional stress began to show on even the most stalwart individuals as people returned to pick up the pieces from amongst the debris.   In this episode, we hear from key decision-makers from the Mississippi National Guard, along with community leaders, fire chiefs, bankers, nurses, and volunteers.   To their memories, we add stories of hope, despair and frustration, from individuals determined to rebuild their homes, lives, and livelihoods.   Hosted by Bill Ellison Produced by Ross Walton  Executive Producer Dr. Kevin Greene. Written by Ross Walton, Isabel Loya, Jerra Runnels, Andrew Leib, and Holli Parker. Additional interviews were conducted by Isabel Loya, Jerra Runnels and Andrew Leib. Special thanks to the Center for the Study of the National Guard and the Mississippi Humanities Council. Graphic Design and Social Media: Isabel Loya

Host Jeremy C. Park talks with Lisa Meister, who recently was honored with the Disaster Response Volunteer Award at the 2025 Strobel Volunteer Awards hosted by Hands On Nashville powered by United Way of Greater Nashville. During the interview, Lisa shares her experiences and insights as a volunteer with the American Red Cross, highlighting the organization's main service areas and the importance of disaster preparedness. Lisa Meister, Tennessee Regional Information & Planning Program Lead, Tennessee Regional Preparedness & Situational Awareness Manager's Volunteer Partner has logged more than 10,000 hours as a volunteer and has been deployed to 29 disaster responses. Lisa emphasizes the significant impact of volunteerism in preventing and alleviating human suffering during emergencies, both locally and globally. Lisa encourages others to get involved with the American Red Cross through various means, stressing the personal fulfillment and positive impact that volunteering can have on both the volunteer and those in need.Red Cross Volunteerism and ImpactLisa Meister, the 2025 Disaster Response Volunteer Award recipient, discusses her journey into volunteering with the American Red Cross, inspired by her mother's philanthropic spirit. She highlights the organization's five main service areas, emphasizing disaster cycle services, including response to large-scale events and everyday home fires, as well as their smoke alarm installation program. Lisa stresses the importance of public awareness about the Red Cross's diverse humanitarian efforts and the impact of volunteerism in preventing and alleviating human suffering during emergencies.American Red Cross Volunteer OverviewLisa provides an overview of the American Red Cross's other main service lines, including blood services, training, certification, and international humanitarian aid, highlighting their significant impact on communities both locally and globally. She shares her personal experience as a volunteer, starting during the 2020 Nashville tornadoes, where she worked in an emergency response vehicle distributing meals, water, and supplies to affected communities. Lisa was struck by the resilience and gratitude of the people she helped and notes the organization's vast network of volunteers, with over 16 million worldwide.American Red Cross Volunteer ExperienceLisa shares her passion for working with the American Red Cross, highlighting her experiences responding to disasters across the country and her commitment to providing support and hope to clients during their worst times. She emphasizes the importance of being prepared for home fires and discusses how her experiences have equipped her to better respond to emergencies, both for herself and for others.Emergency Preparedness Planning DiscussionLisa discusses the importance of being prepared for emergencies by having a "go bag" with essential items and knowing the escape route. She emphasizes the need to be proactive and plan ahead, especially for families. Jeremy agrees and highlights the importance of ensuring children know the escape routes and meeting points in case of an emergency.Volunteering's Rewarding ImpactLisa expresses deep fulfillment from her volunteer work with the American Red Cross, highlighting the meaningful connections and recognition she receives. She was honored to be nominated and receive the award, inspired by the iconic humanitarian Mary Catherine Strobel and the Strobel family. Lisa encourages others to volunteer, emphasizing that it is incredibly rewarding and soul-changing, as it not only helps others but also enriches the volunteer's own life.Volunteering for Hurricane PreparednessLisa discusses the importance of volunteering with the American Red Cross, highlighting the need for volunteers as they prepare for an anticipated challenging hurricane season. She emphasizes that 90% of their workforce are volunteers and encourages people to get involved by donating time, blood, or financially.Visit https://www.redcross.org to learn more and to get involved with the American Red Cross.

Our guest this time is Kay Thompson. As Kay says in her bio, she is a minister, TV show host, author, Realtor® and business owner. If that isn't enough, she has raised a son and a daughter. Kay grew up, as she says, a military brat. She has lived in a number of places around the world. Like others we have had the pleasure to have as guests, her travels and living in various places and countries has made her curious and given her a broad perspective of life.   After high school she went to college. This life was a bit of a struggle for her, but the day came when she realized that college would be a positive thing for her. She will tell us the story.   After college she and her second husband, her first one died, moved to Atlanta where she has now resided for over 30 years. Kay always has had a strong faith. However, the time came when, as she explains, she actually heard God calling her to go into the ministry. And so, she did.   Kay tells us about how she also has undertaken other endeavors including writing, selling real estate and working as a successful Television host. It goes without saying that Kay Thompson performs daily a number of tasks and has several jobs she accomplishes. I hope you will be inspired by Kays's work. Should you wish to contact Kay, visit her website www.kaythompson.org.     About the Guest:   Kay Thompson is a minister, TV show host, author, Realtor® and business owner. She is the founder of Kay Thompson Ministries International, a kingdom resource for healing, hope and spiritual development. Kay is also the founder of Legacy Venture Group, a consulting and media firm which has helped countless businesses, organizations and individuals to strategically maximize potential. Kay holds a BA in Art History from Rutgers University in Camden, NJ, and an MA in Christian Ministry from Mercer University in Atlanta, GA. She is the former program director of WGUN 1010 in Atlanta and hosted the Kay Thompson TV Show, which aired on WATC-TV 57 in Atlanta. She currently hosts for the Atlanta Live broadcast on TV- 57. Kay is a member of the staff for the Studio Community Fellowship at Trillith Studios in Fayetteville, and is a host for their weekly service. She also serves as a member of the Board of Advisors for the A.D. King Foundation and works with several other non­ profit organizations in the Metro Atlanta area. Kay has lived in Georgia for over thirty years and is a resident of Stockbridge. She has two wonderful children: Anthony (Jasmine) and Chanel; and one grandchild, AJ. Kay enjoys reading, bowling and spending time with her family.   Ways to connect with Kay:   Facebook (Kay Thompson Ministries) https://www.facebook.com/kaythompsonministries Instagram (@kayrthompson) https://www.instagram.com/kayrthompson/     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:17 Hi, everyone. I would like to say greetings wherever you happen to be today, we have a wonderful guest today. This is a woman, I would say, of many, many talents. I've been looking forward to this for a while. Kay Thompson is a minister, a TV host. She's an author, she's a realtor, and she's a business owner. My gosh, all of those. I want to find out how she does all those. But anyway, Kay, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad that you're here.   Kay Thompson ** 01:54 Well, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate being here, and thank you for contacting me excited.   Michael Hingson ** 02:01 Well, how do you do all those things all at once?   Kay Thompson ** 02:05 Well, you know, definitely can't do them all at once. Oh, okay, well, so have to kind of parse them out each day. And as I get assignments, that's how it goes. And got to prioritize one over the other. You   Michael Hingson ** 02:22 know? Well, we will, we will get to all of those, I am sure, in the course of the next hour or so. But I'm really glad that you're here, and as yet, I've been looking forward to this for a while, and and I'm sure we're going to have a lot of fun. Why don't we start? Maybe you could go back and tell us kind of about the early K growing up. What about you? So people can get to know you?   Kay Thompson ** 02:44 Oh, yeah. So growing up with the daughter of a military father, military officer. As a matter of fact, he rose to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel. So that was interesting. So it was kind of a privileged military life in that sense that, you know, he just was always, he was a very important figure in his time. So that was interesting, walking on the base with him. And, you know, people would stop and salute him, you know, it was, it was, and I was just a little caught, you know, just running alongside him and just real proud, real proud   Michael Hingson ** 03:28 of my father. Did you have any Did you have any siblings?   Kay Thompson ** 03:31 I do? I have two brothers. Yeah, they both lived in Arizona. I was in the middle, so smashed right in the middle between two very muscular, very had a very demanding, commanding, excuse me, commanding presences. So in between the two brothers there, yeah, and then my mother, she was an English teacher, and very, you know, did excellent in her own right. She did a lot of drama, just a lot of teaching. She ended up in her 60s getting her doctorate degree, and, you know, just really excelled in education. And so she was the one that was really big on education. You know, go to school, go to school. Go to school. I don't want to go to school. Well, you need to go to school anyway. So I went to school anyway. That's how I can say my life was. Now, where did you grow up? All over,   Michael Hingson ** 04:32 okay, you did. I was going to ask if you did a lot of travel, since your dad was in the military.   Kay Thompson ** 04:38 Yeah, we certainly did. I was born in Tacoma, Washington. Oh, I don't remember any portion of it, because we were the only there, basically, so I could be born. I feel like, I know that's not the reason. But we went to Washington so I could be born, and then we lived there about a year, and then we moved to New York City. Then. We moved to. Now, by this my brother was already born, because all of us are three years apart. So my brother was born in Verdun, France, okay, and then they moved to, I can't remember where they were before that. I don't know if they went straight to from there to Washington State, and then we moved to New York, and then we went to Aberdeen, Maryland, and that's where my younger brother was born. And then from there, we went to Germany. We stayed there for about three years. From Germany, we went, I can't believe I remember all this. And from Germany, we went to Ohio. We stayed there for a couple of years. And actually we were there when they had that tornado. Was like in the 70s, there was a tornado Zenith Ohio. Well, we weren't far from zenith at the time. So we were there. Then we moved from there to Virginia, and it was there for three years, then to New Jersey, and then that's where my father retired. So we were all over the place.   Michael Hingson ** 06:10 You were, my gosh, well, did you, did you learn any of the foreign languages when you were in Germany and France, or, yeah,   Kay Thompson ** 06:23 in Germany, we could only, I only remember vaguely, you know, hello, thank you to know what it is now off beat is saying goodbye, Danka and bitter, thank you. You're welcome and good, yeah. But tight. But, no, no, we didn't do that at all   Michael Hingson ** 06:47 so, but you, you certainly did a lot and you had a lot of adventures. How do you think that all of that travel affected you as you grew older? What? What did it do that helped shape you?   Kay Thompson ** 07:03 Well, I know that, you know, of course, traveling. You know, you hear the story about kids all the time they travel, and because if they're if they're moving a lot, it's hard to create lasting, long term friendships, because you're just constantly moving. And you know, never mind moving to another city, but when you go to another state, even from another country. Now, I did happen to have a friendship with a young lady. Her name was Audrey, and I met her in Germany, and I was between the age of about three to five. I met her in Germany, and we stayed friends till I was in Virginia. So you're talking from Germany, wow, to Maryland, to Virginia. We were friends until Virginia, but then once I left Virginia and went to New Jersey, and I was there for my part of my middle school and then the rest of my high school, we fell out of touch. So that was one of the things I would say is difficult, you know, just having lifelong friends, yeah, that was, that was probably one of the more difficult things. But one thing on the other side is it made great being that person that was a world traveler. It was great when you're in school and they, you know, they ask you in your classroom, hey, you know, tell us something unique about you. Oh, well, I've been to Germany because my parents, when we were in Germany, they wasted no time traveling. They were always traveling. We were on the road all the time. I mean literally, and you know, they, they were just great world travelers. We went we went to Italy, we went to Spain, we went to France, we went to Switzerland. We went everywhere in Europe that they could get in that Volvo that they had. We had a nice little Volvo, and we would pitch out at, you know, campsites, you know, just any way they could to get where they needed to get, because they wanted to see these sites, and especially because my mother was an English teacher, she did a lot of plays, she directed a lot of plays, a lot of Shakespeare. And so a lot of these places were in these books, in this literature that she taught, and I'm sure that's probably one of the major reasons they did all this traveling, all these places that she had studied about, and, you know, taught about, she actually got to go see now, I must say, the only place I didn't go to that I wanted to go to that for some reason, she took my older brother. She didn't take any, noone else went, but my mother and my older brother. And I can't understand that trip to this day they those two went to. Greece. We didn't know. No one else in the family went to Greece. And I meant to ask, I'm going to, you know, when I finish this interview, I'm going to call my brother and ask him, What, what? What did you and mom go to Greece? You know, because nobody else got to go. But I would have loved to go there as well, but, but at the time, you know, new kid, it was okay. Mom and mom and Chuck are going away. Okay. But now that I think back and look back, maybe it was, I never, I never asked about that, but I'm going to ask, Did   Michael Hingson ** 10:34 it help you, though, develop a sense of adventure and and not create any kind of fear of of traveling around. Did it make you a more curious person? Because you got to go to so many places? Oh, I asked that in the on the basis of as you grew older and thought about it.   Kay Thompson ** 10:52 Oh, yeah, I'm a very curious person, curious person, and at times that can be a little nosy, right? And so, yeah, so that, to me, was, I think, one of the ways that built expanded my mind in terms of wanting to know about people and about things, because I've worked in public relations for many years, and so just being able to understand the perspective of other people from different cultures and different mindsets, being open to people from different cultures, different races, different religions, wanting to hear their point of view, interested in you know how they feel about things, because you can have a subject, or You can have something come up, and you have so many different perspectives from people. And you can see the very same thing, they can be shown the very same thing, but one person sees it from their lens, you know, from where you know, yeah, whether it's how they grew up or their external influences, and then someone could see the very same thing, and it interpret it totally different. Yeah. So   Michael Hingson ** 12:08 one of the one of the things that I've noticed in talking to a number of people who came from military families and and others as well, who did do a fair amount of travel to various countries and so on. They do tend to be more curious, and I think that's a very positive thing. They they have a broader outlook on so many things, and they tend to be more curious and want to learn more and wish that more people could have the same experiences that they had.   Kay Thompson ** 12:40 Yeah. I mean, not afraid to try new things too, for things that other people would would not like. I remember in Germany being very young, being fed octopus and snail. You know, these delicacies over there in Germany, I remember that at this my where my father was stationed, in Germany. The street, it was in like a court area. It felt like a court area, big apartments set up in a U shape, and then right across in a U shape in the in the middle of a field, like an open space, not a field, but an open space. And then right outside of that open space, we could jump out of that open space right into a busy street called Roma Strasse, and right on the other side of that busy street was Old Town, Germany, literally stepping there were no fences and no bars and no gates. We're stepping straight from our backyard into Germany, because the base was more Americanized. So you really felt Americanized on the base. But once you stepped into Germany, the houses were these. You know, cobble it was cobblestone streets. And I remember me and my brothers used to walk out of our backyard, that big open area, and go across the street into Germany and get the authentic gummy bears. That was our weekly trip. And these gummy bears, I'm telling you now, for gummy bear enthusiasts out there, the gummy bears in Germany looked nothing like these gummy bears that we see here. They were huge. They were the cutest little bears. I almost felt guilty eating them, but we just had a great time. I remember great memories from our exploits, our visits, the life was different. You know, toilet paper was harder. I just remember now that was years ago. I don't know what it's like now, but   Michael Hingson ** 14:49 yeah, but does the gummy bears taste better?   Kay Thompson ** 14:53 Well, now I can't remember, because then, when you're a kid, any candy, you know, if you say candy, I say, yeah. Much, you know. So when I was that young, I couldn't tell, but they probably did, you know. But then again, for those people that like because I don't drink, but the beer there is much darker, too. So some people don't like that. So better to them. You know, could be, you know, we don't like it to us. So   Michael Hingson ** 15:25 I've never been to China, but I've been to Japan twice, and there's a food in China called dim sum. Are you familiar with dim sum? Okay, I'll tell you dim sum in Japan is I and I think better. It's different and tastes better than dim sum in the United States. Now I have to go to China one of these days and try it. Yeah.   Kay Thompson ** 15:48 Well, if you ever go to the buffets, have you ever gone to the Yeah? Yeah. Okay, so if you notice the people that work there, they do not eat the food that the buffet. Yeah, they so one day I'm going to do this too. I'm like, hey, you know, can I have some of which   Michael Hingson ** 16:09 you guys eat? Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, yeah, but it is, it is interesting. It's fun to to investigate and explore. And I haven't traveled around the world much. I have as a speaker, had some opportunities to travel, but I think my curiosity came from being a blind person who was encouraged by my parents to explore, and the result was that I did a lot of exploring, just even in our house around our neighborhood. And of course, when the internet came along, and I still believe this is true, it is a treasure trove of just wonderful places to go visit. And yeah, I know there's the dark web and all that, but I ignore that. Besides that, probably the dark web is inaccessible, and maybe someday somebody will sue all the people who have sites on the dark web because they're not accessible. But nevertheless, the internet is just a treasure trove of interesting places to visit in so many ways. Yeah,   Kay Thompson ** 17:17 and then a virtual reality. So one of the places that I wanted to go to was, I've always wanted to go to Egypt. I haven't had an opportunity yet, and personally, right now, don't know how you know how good an idea that is right now. Yeah, but I went to a recent VR exploration of the pyramids in Egypt. And I'm telling you, if that was how it seemed, it's definitely was a way to help me to, you know, live it out, so to speak. Because there's, like, for instance, there's a place in Florida called the Holy Land, the Holy Land, you know, the whole just like a theme park. And they say it looks, you know, there are areas where it looks just like Israel, parts of Israel. So, you know, in that respect, I've been able to realize some portion of the dream. But yeah, I have been love to get there.   Michael Hingson ** 18:16 I have been to Israel, and I enjoy happy. I was in Israel two years ago. Oh, well, so what did you do after high school?   Kay Thompson ** 18:30 Oh, after high school, interesting. So remember when I was telling you about the school thing? So I was in and out of school. I went to I started college in New Jersey. Where did you I went to Rutgers University. Rutgers, yeah, well, first I started in New Brunswick. Then I came back because we lived closer to Camden. We lived we lived in New Jersey, closer to Philadelphia. Philadelphia was about 20 minutes away.   Michael Hingson ** 18:57 Mm, okay, I lived in, I lived in Westfield, New Jersey. So we were out route 22 from New York, about 15 miles. So we were in the north central part of the state, okay, South North part, or whatever, of the state.   Kay Thompson ** 19:11 Okay, okay, yeah. Well, yeah. First it was in New Brunswick. I was there. And then after I did that, I went for about a semester, and then I transferred over to Hampton University, because both my parents went to Hampton, so I said Hampton didn't stay there, and then I ended up coming back and going to Rutgers in Camden, and there I completed my degree. Took me eight years to complete it. What   Michael Hingson ** 19:42 did you get your degree in?   Kay Thompson ** 19:43 I got my degree in art history and sculpture. So, okay, yeah, and I love what I did. I you know, I had a museum work. Loved working in a museum, and could tell you about all the i. You know, the art, the sculpture, just loved it. But it took me a minute to get that then. And then, after that, I went to, I moved to Atlanta in 92 the end of 92 so after high school, you know, just a lot of challenges, just trying to figure out who I was and what did you do. You know, how I wished I would have, now, looking back on it, I wish I would have, maybe when I got out of high school, just taking some time off first. And because in my heart, I knew I, I knew I, I knew I didn't want to go to school, but I knew I needed to go. I knew there was something in me that said, you you need to go to school. But mentally, I don't think I was mentally prepared for it, for for the you know, because when you get out of high school, and you go into college, it's a unless you take AP courses in high school, you're not prepared for the amount of work you're going to get inundated with. And it was just overwhelming to me. It took all my time. I felt like I was that person. I had to keep reading things over and over again just to get it, I used to have to, not only did I take, you know, what friend of mine calls copious notes, but then I also had to put it over in index cards. And you know, it just took me a long time because my heart wasn't in it at the time. So I ended up meeting a gentleman, my first husband. We were married, we had a son, and then, but he passed away, I think, when my son was about three, and then that's when, okay, okay. Now, you know you now, now, now. I wanted to go. Now I wanted to finish. So it was   Michael Hingson ** 22:00 your it was your husband that passed away. Yes, yeah, okay, yeah, all right, so then you decided you really needed to to do school.   Kay Thompson ** 22:12 Yeah, I needed to complete it. So that's what pushed me to complete it, leaving   Michael Hingson ** 22:17 the major aside of sculpture and art and his art history and so on. If you were to summarize it, what did college teach you?   Kay Thompson ** 22:30 Oh, that's a great question. What did college teach me? Well, you know, it taught me that, you know, I think we just need to, well, you need to know how to focus. It's really was a disciplining moment in my life. I was an Army brat. You know this bottom line, I was an Army brat even though I felt like I didn't get a whole lot of things that I wanted. In reality, I had a, like a kind of a spoiled mentality. And when I got to college, I realized that this stuff is not going to be handed to me, you know, you're not going to be handed an a you know, I'm not going to do your studying for you, you know. And so helping me to kind of detach from things I had just depended on for so long. But in that transition, it became very lonely. College was very lonely. I mean, even when I left, because I got out of when I first went to Rutgers and cam in New Brunswick, right out of high school. I had, I was at the dorm, and I wasn't ready for a dorm. I wasn't ready for that life because, you know, I left almost before the semester was over and I had to go and make up the classes. And, you know, thankfully, they allowed me to make up some of my you know, majority well. As a matter of fact, they let me make them all up, but I still had to put in the work. And that was my thing, putting in the work, putting in the work and doing things that I didn't necessarily like. Because even though I liked art and I like sculpture and all that. There were other classes that I had to take, like humanities and algebra, you know, and history, you know, not not art history, but you know, American history, European history, and all these different other subjects, these other prerequisites or curriculum that you have to take. And I didn't always enjoy those and other I don't want to do that, but no, you actually have to do it. So I'm going to say that college really helped me learn about disciplining myself to do things that I don't necessarily like, but they are required of me,   Michael Hingson ** 24:58 and I. But I would tell you, if you asked me the same question, that would be my answer. It really taught me a lot about discipline. It taught me also to realize that I really did like inappropriately so adventure and exploration and being curious and so on. I also found that my best college courses were the ones, no matter what the subject was or whether I really enjoyed it or not, were the ones where I had good teachers who really could teach and who were concerned about students and interacting with students, rather than just giving you assignments, because they then wanted to go off and do their thing. But I liked good teachers, and I went to the University of California at Irvine, and had, very fortunately, a lot of good teachers who encouraged discipline and being able to function in unexpected ways and and they also pointed out how to recognize like if you're doing something right, like in physics, when my Masters is in physics, one of the First things that one of my professors said is, if you've got to get the right answer, but the right answer isn't just getting the right numbers, like if you are trying to compute acceleration, which we know is 16 feet per second squared, or 9.8 meters per second squared. That's not right. Anyway, 3232 feet per second, or 9.8 meters per second, it isn't enough to get the 32 feet or or the 9.8 meters. You've got to get meters per second squared. Because that never mind why it is, but that is, that is the physics term for acceleration, so it isn't enough to get the numbers, which is another way of saying that they taught me to really pay attention to the details. Yeah, which was cool. And I'm hearing from you sort of the same thing, which is great, but, but then you went to college, and you majored in what you did, and so did you work in the museum part of the time while you were in college?   Kay Thompson ** 27:31 Well, what happened is, I had an art history teacher who just took a, I guess, a liking to me, because I was very enthusiastic about what I did, because I love what I did. And I had a writing background, because I had a mother who was an English teacher. So all my life, I was constantly being edited. So I came in with pretty good grammar and pretty good way to I had a writing I had a talent for writing in a way that the academic were looking for, that art history kind of so I knew how to write that way, and she hired me to help her. She was a professor that did, you know, lectures, and she hired me, paid me out of her own salary, kind of like a work study. And so I worked for her about 20 hours a week, just filing slides and, you know, helping her with whatever she needed, because she was the chair of the department. So that was a great opportunity. I was able to work with her and and maybe feel good to know if somebody thought, you know enough of you know what I did to to hire me, and feel like I I could contribute, and that I was trusted to be able to handle some of these things. I mean, you know, and I don't know how difficult it is to file slides, but you know, when it teacher wants to do a lecture, and back then they were these little, small, little, you know, square slides. Square slides drop into the projector, right? And she's looking for, you know, the temple of Nike. You know, she wants to find it in order. You know, you pull that slide and you put it in your projector, right, carousel, right, yes, yes. So that's what I did, and it was great. I loved it. I learned college. I loved I loved the college atmosphere. I loved being in that vein, and I think I really found my niche when I was when I went to Rutgers in Camden.   Michael Hingson ** 29:48 Well, there's a history lesson sports fans, because now, of course, it's all PowerPoint. But back then, as Kay is describing it, when you wanted to project things you had. Slides. So they were pictures, they were films, and they were all these little squares, maybe two inches square, and you put them in a carousel, and you put them in the projector, and every time you push the button, it would go to the next slide, or you could go back the other way. So PowerPoint is only making it a little bit more electronic, but the same concept is still there. So there, there I dealt with slides. So after college, you, you did time at the university, at the museum, I gather,   Kay Thompson ** 30:31 okay. So what happened with the museum after I graduated from college, immediately I moved to New Jersey, yeah, you know, right? I'm gonna say probably about six months, six months to a year before college, is when my first husband died, and then after I graduated, um, I moved to New Jersey first. Where did you graduate from? Again, Rutgers University in Camden. Okay, so   Michael Hingson ** 30:59 that's New Jersey so you, but after college, you moved,   Kay Thompson ** 31:03 I moved to Georgia, Georgia that   Michael Hingson ** 31:06 that makes more sense. Okay, okay,   Kay Thompson ** 31:08 okay, sorry, yeah, so I moved to Georgia, and immediately, when we came to Georgia, you know my I came with a gentleman who I married shortly after, I moved to Georgia and we opened a art gallery. We were entrepreneurs. We came because, you know, there was, we felt like there was more opportunity in Georgia for small business owners, or would be potential small business owners, or people who wanted to realize their dream. And we know that in Georgia now, I don't know if you know this, but Georgia is a great place for entrepreneurs, so definitely better than where I was at the time. So we packed the U haul and just threw everything in there and came to Atlanta. Now my the gentleman who would be my husband. So I just say my husband now, then he, he had a sister here, so we visited first with her, and that's how we got to really see the scene, check out the scene, and then we came back and moved and found our own place and everything like that. So but when we came, I opened it, I had an art gallery for about a year or so, little bit longer and but that didn't work out. Didn't, you know, just, you know, some things you tried. Just yeah, just didn't work. But then my husband and now just FYI for you, this person, the second person, I married, the second man. He passed away too, but that was in 2008 but so he's my late husband too. So I have two, two husbands that passed away. One was the first one was much younger, and my second husband. We were married for 16 years. This is early on in our relationship. We he he opened a brass outlet, a just all kinds of beautiful black brass vases and animals and just anything brass you wanted. But also, after I shut down the museum I had or the gallery, it was an art gallery, I moved my pieces into his brass outlet, and there I was able to kind of display them and sell them. We had pieces that range from, you know, $25 to $500 so we I found a little space there that I could do my work. So it was a nice little coupling.   Michael Hingson ** 33:43 Yeah, I'm with you. Uh huh. So so you, you have obviously moved on from from doing a lot of that, because now you have other endeavors, as we mentioned at the beginning, being a minister, an entrepreneur, an author and so on. So how did you transition from just doing art to doing some of the things that you do today?   Kay Thompson ** 34:18 Okay, so what happened is when I came to and I guess this is the really, deeply more personal aspect of it all, when, when I came to Atlanta again, my my first husband had passed away. He committed suicide. Yeah, so when I came to Atlanta, my second husband and I were not yet married, and all I knew is that I wanted the relationship not to be the way the first one was, in a sense of. I I didn't want to go through that specific kind of trauma again and and not that the the two gentlemen were similar. They were very different people. My second husband was a very confident, very strong willed, you know, type of a person, but the trauma and my first husband, he had his own strength in, you know, but there's something that happens when you decide, you know, to end your life. Yeah, I wanted to make sure that I had some sort of support, divine support, because the going through something like that, and when I say something like that, not only am I talking about the suicide, but the fact that he was On we were on the phone together when this happened, so and then just dealing with everything that happened around it, you can imagine someone feeling a little bit insecure, unsure. So I really began to seek God for that relationship that I know would sustain me. I had grown up, you know, my parents grew up, they brought us to church. You know, I wouldn't say my parents were they weren't ministers, but they were active in whatever church they went to, and they made sure that we went to church every Sunday, even the Vacation Bible School. I can remember that in New Jersey, I remember, you know, them just being a very, very involved. My my parents. My mother was a singer, so she sang a lot in the choir, lot of solos. My father was a deacon. They both became elders, and elders, meaning they were just senior members of ministry. Because elder in the I'm in a non denominational ministry now, but elder is another way of saying a ordained male Minister their particular denomination, an elder was, you know, almost you might want to say like a trustee, so, but they were root, they they were they were integral to their church, And they were really foundational members. And so I just remember that impact on my life, and so I needed to make sure I had that grounding, and I knew I didn't have it because I was doing any and everything I wanted to do. You know, one of the reasons my my second husband, said, You know, he, I was the one for him, is because we had a drinking competition and I beat him, you know, we were taking shots, and I beat him. And so, you know that that was something that, you know, he said, Oh, you're, you know, girl, you're the one for me. And so that was our life, running, you know, we did a lot of. We entertained. We, you know, we did a lot of partying, as you say, a lot of having a great time. We were living our best life, right? So I knew I wasn't living a life that I could tell, Hey, God, see my life, Aren't you proud? It wasn't that life I was living. I wasn't, you know, doing biblical things. I wasn't living life, right? So I needed to make sure when I came to New Jersey, I mean, when I came to Atlanta from New Jersey with this gentleman that I had not yet married, I said, Lord, you know, help me make the right decision. And I'd say we could be moved to to Georgia in it's something like January, February. Okay, we got married about two months later, and then a month after that, I was pregnant with my daughter. So things being that, it happened very fast. But one thing about it is, of course, when you're pregnant, as a woman, you know, you can't do this. I couldn't do the things that I was doing before, right? The partying, smoking, the drinking, all of that, you know, for the sake of the child. You know, you just can't do it. So I went through a terrible withdrawal. Yeah, it was, it was pretty bad and and the only refuge I had was the church. So that's how I really got into the church. And once I got into the church, I had, I had been in the church before I had made a decision. Decision when I was about, I'm going to say about five, five or six years prior to that, I had given my life to the Lord. I had, you know, come into a relationship with the Lord, but life happened, and I got out of it. You know, I quickly kind of got out of it. And so for many years, I was just doing my own thing. So again, when, when, when we came to Georgia, I got pregnant, got married, going through with the withdrawals. I just, you know, I just went back into the church, uh, rekindled that relationship. Or, or the Bible says that he, he, he's with loving kindness. Has he drawn you? So he really drew me back based on my need. And so I came back to the church and got really, really involved in ministry. And as I got involved, I just kind of threw myself into it, because I could not do the previous things I did. And then even after I had my my second child, it's a daughter, so I have a son and a daughter, I had to live a life that was good for   Michael Hingson ** 41:05 them. And what did your husband think of all that?   Kay Thompson ** 41:09 Oh, yeah. Well, first he thought I had joined a cult. Okay, yeah, that's so that was his first impression. So he came to the church because he wanted to see who these cult members were that were drawing away his wife. And when he came, he got kind of hooked to the church, yeah? But our our faith was never at the same level. You know? He came because of me. I came because of of God, right? And I don't know if he ever really, I don't think he ever really got to that level that I did, where I was just gung ho. Everything was, you know, I was a Jesus girl. I was a holy roller, you know. And he did it for us. He did it for, you know, task sake, because he was a task oriented person. But he came, he came to be a very like my parents. He came to be very important part of the church. He was a deacon. He was faithful. He loved our leaders. He served with faith and integrity. But when it came to that, you know, deep seated personal relationship with God, where you know God, I just give you everything you know that that was mine. That was what I did. So we differed in that respect, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:35 well, well, hopefully though, in in the long run, you said he's passed. I assume it was not a suicide.   Kay Thompson ** 42:45 No, no,   Michael Hingson ** 42:46 Ben that he is. He is moving on in that faith. So that's a hopeful   Kay Thompson ** 42:53 thing. Yeah, I believe he is. He had congestive heart failure and he passed away. And, yeah, I believe he he's now at rest, enjoying his rest. Yes, there   Michael Hingson ** 43:06 you go. So when did he pass in 2008 Okay, so that was 17 years ago. Okay, yep, well, so you were very involved in the church. And I suppose in some senses, it's probably a question that is reasonably obvious, but then I'll still ask, how did you get into the ministry from being very heavily involved in church, and when did that happen?   Kay Thompson ** 43:38 Okay, so one day our church. You know, the churches we have depending on, I guess, your faith or leaders do in the beginning of each year, we have a 21 day consecration, which we do in January, throughout the month of January. You know they might say, okay, 21 for 21 days. Read these scriptures, and we're going to fast from, you know, sweets, meats, or, you know, whatever the directive is. And so we was in a 21 day fast, and that was at my home one day. It was in the middle of the night, and I distinctly heard a call to preach. And that's really how the it all began. I mean, I knew, you know, the Bible says that, you know, even with Jeremiah and Jeremiah one, he says, Before the foundation, you know, before your mother and your father, you know, were together, I have already called you. I already ordained you. So I heard this call to preach, very distinct call, and at that point, I told my pastor, and from that point, I was kind of groomed, and as time went on, I was given more responsibility. Uh, you know, praying, or every now and then, preaching, doing Bible study. The next thing I know, I took my licensing exam, I was licensed, and then after that, I went through ordination, and I was ordained, and that's how it really began. And it was something I really took to heart, because I didn't want to disappoint God again. I didn't want to backslide again. Because, you know, I strongly believed in the faith, and I believe in the faith, and I believe in the power of Jesus, and I didn't want to be that person that Okay. Today I'm going to be faithful to the God and to His Word. But then, you know, then on the next day, you know, you're finding me, you know, yeah, in the liquor store, or, you know, this, doing this, or, you know, in the club. I didn't want to be that person. Yeah, I was, I was sincere, and I was very gung ho, and I wanted to live out this life. I wanted to see what the calling was going to be in my life. And I loved ministry. I loved the word, because I was already an art historian. So I loved history. And so the Bible is all you know, it's something history. It's history. Yeah, it's relevant. History to me, it's alive and active, sure. So it was perfect. It was a perfect pairing for me, and that that's really been my pursuit many these years.   Michael Hingson ** 46:37 So when did you become a minister?   Kay Thompson ** 46:41 Actually, when I, when I was telling you about that fast and when I heard the word preach, essentially when I heard that word preach between me and God, that was when I became a minister. Time wise. When was that time wise? Okay, that was probably 94 Okay. I Yeah, all right.   Michael Hingson ** 47:00 So you were, you were clearly a preacher during a lot of the time with your your second husband, and so on, and, and I am so glad that he at least did explore and and and learn so much. So that's a that's a cool thing. But you've also done some other things. You deal with real estate, you're a TV show host, you're an author and well, business owner, yeah, but I want to, I want to learn more about some of those. But what kind of challenges have you faced in the ministry?   Kay Thompson ** 47:42 Yeah. I would say some of the challenges are, you know, when you're in ministry, you have to preach or get yourself prepared for going before the people. It can be a very lonely lifestyle, yeah, yeah, even, even if you're married, even if you have children, it could still be a lonely and and demanding in its own right, because there is a mandate over your life to live and not according to what you see trending now. And, you know, when I, when I first got started in ministry there, the Internet was not the way it is now. No, no, definitely. Because, I mean, it was in 2000 that I got ordained. And I'm going to say the ministry had been, you know, it was just really starting to, I don't know you guess, she said, make waves. That's when all of the big evangelists were coming out, like, you know, the TD Jakes, the Paula white and the Benny Hinn and the Juanita Biden. That is around that time when those generation of preachers were really at the forefront, correct, low dollar and, you know, Bishop, Carlton, Pearson and Rod Parsley and all these, these names. That's when it really began to really pick up steam. And so that was the error that I started off in. And you wanted to be a person. You wanted to be relevant, but at the same token, you just trying to find that balance between family and ministry and and regular life. You know, can sometimes be really challenging, and I had to learn a lot about the order of things. You know, first it's God, then it's family, and then it's ministry. That's the order. But a lot of times we mix up God and ministry. So what we think is, you know, and. Aspect of things that we think that are God, that are actually ministry, and they supersede your family. That's where you know you can really run into some trouble. So that balance between those different aspects of my life, it was difficult, and then as a person who had a a more a prophetic, a revelatory call. On top of that, God is showing you things about people, about, you know, situations that you don't necessarily ask to know about, you know. And the Bible says, you know, with much knowledge can often come sorrow, you know. And that's when you begin to see God really unveiling and revealing things about people and about yourself. Because you have to be able to, you have to be able to look at yourself and not get too self righteous, right? If God is showing you these things. But in the same token, you don't want to, you know, you say, Okay, God, you're showing me this. What do you want me to do with this? And you know, somebody else might say, Okay, you need to go tell that person what God showed you. You know, I saw you doing this. You better stop, you know, doing this. And then, you know, so busy pointing the finger. Yeah, but you have to remember, you know, and it's, it may be cliches, but you've got three pointing back at you. And so there is, you know, you you've gotta be able to stay humble and yet still balance your family and still, you know, uh, not think yourself to be more than what you are, and yet realize that God has called you to do more in ministry than the average person. So yeah, it can be challenging, but I wouldn't change it for anything.   Michael Hingson ** 51:55 It can be a challenge, but at the same time, you clearly were called to do it, and you work at keeping perspective, and I think that's the important thing, which goes back to college, which helped you learn a lot of discipline, and you get to use that discipline in a different way, perhaps, than you right, you figured out in college. But discipline is discipline, yeah. Well, how did you then get into something like the media and start being a TV show host and those kinds of things?   Kay Thompson ** 52:26 Yeah, so I have a wonderful, wonderful pastor who really takes time to work with their their members and find out what your gifts are, what your talents are, and use them. And so I So, let's just say so I was an artist. Okay, bottom line, I was a sculptor, painter, award winning painter, by the way. Let me just tell you now, you know the first or second painting I did, I entered it into a contest at the college, and I won an award, so I had a gift for this design, but in my time we were transitioning to graphic design, graphic design became the big thing, and I never had if I had the aptitude to do computer science, which, bless his soul, my beautiful son is a computer scientist, right, you know, but that gene, this, that gene, skip right on over me. I was not the math person, and when you said physicist, I said, Hmm, that that, you know, that gene just, just totally went around me,   Michael Hingson ** 53:41 yeah, so you don't know anything about 32 feet per second squared anyway, no,   Kay Thompson ** 53:45 I'm about to say, I trust you, whatever you say, you know, and it's the funny thing is, my father was a mathematician, my older brother was a chemical engineer, and Me, you know that I struggle just to pass geometry. Okay, so no, I was the artsy person.   Michael Hingson ** 54:07 Um, that's fine, but I was, yeah. How'd that get you to the media?   Kay Thompson ** 54:12 Yeah, so I was going to say, so, the combination what happened is my pastor knew a pastor who was looking for a part time job, looking for someone to have a part time job, because he had a he had his own publishing company in his house. He at the time he was he published a book that we talked about church growth. And this was at the time when the Purpose Driven Life, The Purpose Driven Life was a purpose driven church came out. It was a huge success. And he the same thing happened with him here in Atlanta, but no publishing company wanted to take. Make his story, because that's the, you know, the whole the society was inundated with this purpose driven church, you know, it was already written about. It was already done. They didn't want his story. So he decided to create his own publishing company, and it was in the basement of his mansion, and he was looking for someone to be the secretary. So I came in that I was, it was a friend of a friend of friend. They hired me, and I started working for him as a as a secretary. And then they would bring these books over, and he would, you know, send them out to be edited, and then bring them back. And then I would have to mail it out to the to the printer and one of the books one day, and I saw it, and I noticed there were still typos in it. I said, Sir, there's still typos in your book. Oh, really, yeah. And he had already paid this person $1,000 so I went back through it, found all these typos, and that's how I got into publishing, publishing my own books and and everything like that. But then one day, my pastor said, Hey, Kay, why don't you do a radio show? I was like, okay, sure, right, because I had met so many people in ministry from doing their books. So I called the radio station, the local am station, and I said, Hey, how much does it cost to do a show, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was sponsored by my pastor and some other people, and I started a 30 minute show every week. It was called personalities, profiles and perspectives, the three teams, and I would interview people, gospel artists, pastors, you know, just politicians, you know, just people. I would reach out to them. Next thing I know, I got hired by a station in another station in Atlanta. It was called wg, I don't know if you remember, well, you, you probably don't, because you're not from Atlanta, right? But it was W G, U N, 10:10am, in Atlanta, the biggest am station aside from WSB radio, which is WSB 750 the major news network, right? WGN, 1010. Was a huge station, and I got hired by them. I was a DJ. It was a gospel station, and I ended up being the program director, and did a lot of, you know, voiceovers. I did shows, I did production. That's how I got into radio. And I loved it. I loved radio. I loved anything to do with media. It was just I knew it. I got bit with the bug when they opened up that hot mic. That was it. I was in my element. So that's how I got into radio. And then you went to TV. And then I went to TV, yeah, went to TV. Well, what happened is, I was writing books, and there is a station here in Atlanta, W ATC TV 57 and they interview people all over, actually, all over the country. You can come from wherever we know, we've had big names, you know, all kinds of people and local people. And that's one thing about it, is that local people in ministry could go there. They could sing, if they were music artists, they could, you know, talk about their books, talk about their ministry. And so I went on and talked about my book, and next thing I know, I got called in to be a host, and so I've been hosting now for about five years. Wow. You know, on and off. You know, the the show has different hosts each, and I do a couple of times a month. Okay, I'll actually be on there shortly, again in a few days. So   Michael Hingson ** 58:57 tell us about your books. You've mentioned books several times. Did you publish your own books? Okay, so tell us about your books.   Kay Thompson ** 59:06 So yeah, the first four books, well, I've done I've had four books which were on prophecy. The the main title is prophecy in the 21st Century. And then I did four different volumes. The first one was the role of prophecy in the new millennium. And basically that one was written in, I'm going to say around 2012 somewhere about 2012 and it talks about the relevance of prophecy with regard to the millennial generation, and how this you can help steer direct and go alongside millennial mindset, millennial and many millennial aspects of this generation. And then the second book was also the set under the same volume, the same name. Prophecy in the 21st Century, the role of and the second the first one is the role of prophecy in the new millennium. The second one was prophetic healing. And prophetic healing talks about prophecy and healing in the Bible and how prophetic people who operate in the prophetic can help bring forth, healing, societal, healing, relational, healing, physical, healing, financial. And then the third one was about prophetic women. And these are women in the Bible that had a prophetic calling, not necessarily called a prophetess, but display those characteristics of women that operate in Revelation and that sort of gift. And then the fourth one was called the leadership mandate, and it talks about leader and how leaders navigate in the prophetic arena and the characteristics that people ought to have, and leaders in the Bible that also operated in that revelation or that. And then the last book I wrote was called the 30 names, or not the but 30 Names of God, because there are so many more names that God is known by. But I chose 30 names that really stood out to me as what God has called. You know Jehovah Gabor. You know the warrior one fights for us. You know Jehovah Jireh, of course, we know that's our provider. Mm, hmm, Jehovah Rapha, our healer. So I found 30 names that really stood out to me, and I spoke about those in that book. So those are the books that I have, and then I've got another book that will be coming out within the next year, and and it is about healing. So those are my books, and I've published those books. And not only do I, I didn't start off publishing my own books. I started off publishing for other people, right? Because the more I worked in that field, the more I found that I could do better financially if I did it myself. Yeah, so and I, and I, one thing about it is that as a result of being an artist, that the graphic design, computer graphics, came really easy to me, I'll bet. So, yeah, so someone could hand me a manuscript. I had the editing skills right for my mother. So I could edit your book. I could create the design. I could format it. I You. Hand me your manuscript, I hand you back your finished product. So for me, you know, the cheapest person that you know, I pay the least amount because so I can publish as many books as I could write, probably, you know, but that's how I really got started doing that, and then I began to do it for other people, other leaders, other pastors, friends, you know, just people that want that service. I provide that service. And so that's how that really got started.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:12 Now we don't have a lot of time, but I just curious. You also do something in real estate.   Kay Thompson ** 1:03:19 I do, yeah, I I got my license in 2005 and maybe one year, maybe one year, and then I got out of it right away. Life happened, and then I came back in 2022, and began to did it full time. And so I love it. I love real estate. Right now I'm in residential, but I do some commercial, and the ultimate goal is to do mostly commercial and to have a space. The goal for commercial is to really help others entrepreneurs who are interested in having businesses offline, giving them an opportunity to have a space that is little to nothing, and that's one of the ways that I really want to give back, is to be able to offer that opportunity for people out there to help others to achieve that same goal. And so I believe in entrepreneur. I've been an entrepreneur for 17 years now. So, yeah, have a heart for that. So I want to see other people get through that challenge and be successful. So, and I know it takes money,   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:37 but in real estate helps.   Kay Thompson ** 1:04:39 It definitely helps. Yeah? Well, real estate is constantly going up, you know, even if the market is down and even if finances are down, real estate is something that is immovable,   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:52 so go back up.   Speaker 1 ** 1:04:54 Yeah, yeah, for sure, and   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:57 you clearly enjoy everything that you're. Doing, which is the important thing, yes, I have that is that is really cool, and I am so glad that we had a chance to talk about all this, needless to say, and I want to thank you for being on unstoppable mindset. Clearly, you have an unstoppable mindset, and you exhibited in so many ways. So I really want to thank you, but I also want to thank all of you for listening out there, wherever you happen to be, if you'd like to reach out to KK, how can people find you?   Kay Thompson ** 1:05:31 They can go to my website. It is my name, K Thompson, dot, O, R, G, all my books are there? Contact information, some of my podcasts. You can watch some of Atlanta live the videos of the shows. It's all on my website,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:49 all right, and that's in in the notes and so on. So, k, a, y, T, H, O, M, P, S O, n.org, correct. So hope that you'll all go there and and check Kay out and and communicate with her. I'm sure that she would love, and I would love to know what you think and get your thoughts about today. So please feel free to email me at Michael, H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I B, e.com, wherever you're observing our podcast today, please give us a five star rating. We value very highly your reviews, and we, of course, love them most when you give us a five star review. So please do that. And Kay, for you and for everyone who is out there today, if you know anyone else who ought to be on unstoppable mindset, I would really appreciate it if you'd introduce us and we will bring them on the podcast, because we're always looking for people who have stories to tell about their lives and being unstoppable. So please don't hesitate to let us know. You can also go to our podcast page, which is Michael hingson, M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s o n.com/podcast, so we'd love you to do that as well. But again, really appreciate all you being out there and listening to us and and I'm sure you you like, like, I have gotten some wonderful things out of talking with case. Okay, once again, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely wonderful.   Kay Thompson ** 1:07:22 Well, thank you. I really enjoyed it. I appreciate you asking me to be here and just so glad to be able to share with you today your audience. Really appreciate it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:37 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Recorded Friday, August 1, 2025 at the Bearly There Bunkhouse in Canyon Creek Montana KNTTING Barb is working on charity hats, A Hat Called Hudson x4 by Alison Shuman, and Bankhead Hat #34 (by Susie Gorlay) Eileen has been working on Maize by Tin Can Knits, fingerless mitts in Black Wolf fiber and Simple Summer Tweed Top Down V-Neck by Heidi Kirrmaier in Urth   Monokrom Worsted Susan has made  4 The Knitted Rib Watch Caps by the American Red Cross for charity and is making the Sixteen Hearts Baby Hat by Natasha Childers Kate is making the Botanic Shawl by Stephen West and The Gathering Hat by Kate Salomon Tracie has been very indecisive about yarn but is going to make the Summer Sky Tee by Comfort Zone Knits in Juniper Moon Farm Zooey Spray BOOKS Eileen:       Kate Shugak - Kate Shugak series by Dana Stabenow Sebastian St Cyr series by CS Harris Susan:       The Unexpected Mrs. Pollifax by Dorothy Gilman The Unraveling of Julia by Lisa Scottoline Kate:             Spitfires: The American Women Who Flew in the Face of Danger in WWII by Becky Aikman  Population 485 by Michael Perry Tracie:         DS George Cross series by Tim Sullivan Cormac Reilly series by Dermal Mctiernan Barb:           Facing the Extreme: One Woman's Story by Ruth Anne Kocour   Our whole group recommends Great Falls, Montana for yarn shopping! Yarn & Honey Farmer's Daughter Fibers  

After devastating floodwaters wreaked havoc on southeast Wisconsin, the extent of the damage is becoming clear. From cleanup and insurance denials to financial assistance and the possibility of federal dollars, thousands in the Milwaukee-area are still navigating the aftermath. In this episode of Open Record, FOX6 Investigator Bryan Polcyn invites Contact 6's Jenna Sachs on to talk about the fallout from the floods. The team talks to the American Red Cross, an insurance attorney who represents policyholders in challenges cases, and Milwaukee's Commissioner of Public Works. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Our guest this time, Elizabeth Gagnon is all about Tea. However, as you will discover, her Tea is not mostly the drink although at the end of our episode we do learn she does like some teas. For Miss Liz, as she is most commonly known, Tea stands for Teaching Educational Awareness.   Miss Liz's life growing up was hard. She was sexually abused among other things. It took her awhile to deal with all the trauma she faced. However, as she and I discuss, she made choices to not let all the abuse and beatings hold her back.   She tried to graduate from high school and was one course away from that goal when she had to quit school. She also worked to get her GED and again was only a few units away when life got in the way.   Liz's story is not to her a tragedy. Again, she made choices that helped her move on. In 2010 she began her own business to deal with mental health advocacy using her Tea approach. Liz will tell us all about Tea and the many iterations and changes the Tea model has taken over the years.   I am as impressed as I can be to talk with miss Liz and see her spirit shine. I hope you will feel the same after you hear this episode.   Miss Liz has written several books over the past several years and there are more on the way. Pictures of her book covers are in the show notes for this episode. I hope you enjoy hearing from this award-winning lady and that you will gain insights that will help you be more unstoppable.     About the Guest:   Elizabeth Jean Olivia Gagnon, widely known as Miss Liz, is an international keynote speaker, best-selling author, and the visionary behind Miss Liz's Tea Parties and Teatimes. A fierce advocate for mental health, abuse awareness, and peacebuilding, she's recognized globally for her storytelling platforms that empower individuals to share their truths “one cup at a time.” From podcast host to humanitarian, Miss Liz uses her voice and lived experience to ignite real change across communities and cultures.   A survivor of extreme trauma, Miss Liz has transformed her pain into purpose by creating safe spaces for open, healing conversations. Her work has earned her prestigious honors, including an Honorary Doctorate for Human Rights, the Hope and Resilience Award, and the World Superhero Award from LOANI. She's been featured on over 200 platforms globally and continues to lead through her podcast, social impact work, and live storytelling events.   Miss Liz is also a multi-time international best-selling co-author in the Sacred Hearts Rising and Unstoppable Gems book series. She's the creator of the TeaBag Story Award and the founder of her own T-E-A product line—Teaching Educational Awareness through fashion, wellness, and personal development tools. With every word, event, and product, Miss Liz reminds us that healing is possible, and that we all hold the power to be a seed of change.   Ways to connect with Elizabeth:   Social media links my two websites www.misslizsteatime.com www.misslizstee.com All my social media links can be found on those sites. Or my linktree.  https://linktr.ee/Misslizsteatime     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to talk to Miss Liz Gagnon, and I'm really interested to hear why she likes to be called Miss Liz instead of Elizabeth, or any of those kinds of things. But Liz also has some very interesting connections to tea, and I'm not going to give away what that's all about, but I'll tell you right now, it's not what you think. So we'll, we'll get to that, though, and I hope that we get to have lots of fun. Over the next hour, I've told Liz that our podcast rule, the only major rule on this podcast is you can't come on unless you're going to have fun. So I expect that we're going to have a lot of fun today. And Liz, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We are glad you're here.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 02:09 Well, thank you so much, Michael for having me. It's an honor to be here. I can't wait to dip into the tea and get everybody curious on what we're going to be spilling. So,   Michael Hingson ** 02:19 so how did you get started with the the name Miss Liz, as opposed to Elizabeth or Lizzie or any of that kind of stuff.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 02:28 Well, I have all those names too, Michael, I'll bet you   Michael Hingson ** 02:31 do. But still, Miss Liz is what you choose.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 02:35 Actually, Miss Liz was given to me at the age of four the same time my cup of tea was given to me at the age of four by my Oma. I that she just had a hard time saying Elizabeth. She was from Germany, so she would just call me Miss Liz. Miss Liz. And then I knew, Oh boy, I better move, right.   Michael Hingson ** 02:52 Yeah. If she ever really got to the point where she could say Elizabeth, very well, then you really better move.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 02:59 Well, she used to call me Elvira too, and I didn't like that name Elvira. Yeah, I don't know how she got Elizabeth from a viral but she used to call me a vira. I think maybe it was because her name was Avira, so I think it was close to her name, right? So, well,   Michael Hingson ** 03:17 tell us a little bit about the early Miss Liz, growing up and all that stuff, and little bit about where you came from and all that.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 03:25 Well, I come from a little town called Hearst, Ontario in Canada. It's about maybe 6000 population. I'm going to guess. I was born and raised there until the age of I think it was 31 when I finally moved away for the last time, and I've been in the East End, down by Ottawa and Cornwall and all that stuff since 2005 but My early childhood was a hard one, but it was also a strong one. I A lot of people will say, how do you consider that strong? I've been through a lot of abuse and neglect and a lot of psychological stuff growing up and but I had my tea, I had that little Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole that I could go down once in a while, just to keep me moving and keep me strong, right? So, yeah, my story was, was a hard one, but I don't look at it as a struggle. I look at it as as stepping stones of overcoming Stuff and Being that voice that I am today,   Michael Hingson ** 04:29 struggle, if you if you're willing to talk about a struggle, how   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 04:35 I was sexually abused by my uncle at the age of four, and then other family members later on, in couple years later down the road, but my uncle was the main abuser, and I became impregnant by my uncle and lost a daughter to stillborn. So there was a lot of shame to the family. Was not allowed to speak at this child for many, many years, I finally came out with her story. After my father passed, because I felt safe, because my family would put me into psychiatric wards when I would talk about my little girls,   Michael Hingson ** 05:06 wow, yeah, I, I don't know I, I just have very little sympathy for people who do that to girls, needless to say, and now, now my cat, on the other hand, says she's abused all the time, but that's a different story,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 05:25 right? But I strongly believe, Michael, that we all go through challenges and struggles in life to have our story, to be that voice where we are today, like like yourself, right? Had you not gone through what you went through, you would not have the story that you have   Michael Hingson ** 05:42 well, and I think that it also comes down to what you decide to do with the story. You could just hide it, hide behind it, or other things like that. And the problem is, of course, that then you don't talk about it. Now, after September 11, I didn't go through any real counseling or anything like that. But what I did do was I and my wife and I discussed it. We allowed me to take calls from reporters, and literally, we had hundreds of calls from reporters over a six month period. And what was really fascinating for me, especially with the TV people who came. I learned a whole lot about how TV people set up to do an interview. We had a Japanese company with two or three people who came, and that was it up through an Italian company that had 15 people who invaded our house, most of whom didn't really seem to do anything, and we never figured out why were they. They were there. But it's fascinating to see how   06:46 extras, Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 06:49 extra, the extras, yeah, but we but it was very fascinating. But the point was that the reporters asked everything from the most inane, dumb question to very intelligent, wise, interesting questions, and it made me talk about September 11. So I don't think that anything could have been done in any other way that would have added as much value as having all those reporters come and talk to me. And then people started calling and saying, We want you to come and talk to us and talk to us about what we should learn from September 11 lessons we should learn talk about leadership and trust in your life and other things like that. And my wife and I decided that, in reality, selling life and philosophy was a whole lot more fun and rewarding than managing a computer hardware sales team and selling computer hardware. So I switched. But it was a choice.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 07:48 Yeah, it is a choice, right? Michael, do you, do you stay in the self pity, or do you rise from it, right? And a lot of people were like, Miss Liz, how can you be so good hearted and open to people that have hurt you so bad? And I always said, since I was a little girl, Michael, I would not give anybody what others gave me. Yeah, you know that that little inner girl in me always said, like, you know what it feels like. Would you like somebody else to feel this way? And the answer is no.   Michael Hingson ** 08:16 And with people like your uncle, did you forgive them ever? Or have you,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 08:21 I forgive them for myself. Yeah, I that's how you do. You know, I'm not forgiving you and coming for your Sunday dinner and having roast beef and pretending that it was all fun and games. When I was younger, I had no choice to forgive him and to be around him, because that's how my parents were. You know, don't bring shame to the family and as a minor. Well, you you know you obey your parents and that, and I hate that word, obey I hear. You know, I grew up in a time where you respect your elders, right? Whether they were good or bad, you respected them. It was Yes, sir, yes, ma'am. You know whether they hurt you or not, you just respected these people. Do I? Do I have respect for them today, absolutely not. I pray for them, and I hope that they find peace within themselves. But I'm not going to sit in and apologize to somebody who actually doesn't give to to tune darns of my my apology, right? So my words?   Michael Hingson ** 09:23 Well, the the bottom line is that respect is something that has to be earned, and if they're not trying to earn it, then you know, why should you respect? On the other hand, forgiveness is something that you can do and and you do it and you move on, yeah, and   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 09:40 a lot of people don't understand the real forgiveness, right? They always tell me, Miss Liz, you haven't forgiven anybody. And I said, Yes, I have, or I wouldn't be where I am today, guys, yeah, if I wouldn't have forgiven those people for myself, not for them.   Michael Hingson ** 09:55 Now, see, that's the difference between people and my cat. My cat has no self pity. She's just a demanding kitty, and I wouldn't have her any of that. Oh, she's she's really wonderful. She likes to get petted while she eats. And she'll yell at me until I come and pet her, and then she eats while I'm petting her. She loves it. She's a cutie. She's 15 and going on two. She's great.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 10:17 Oh, those are the cute ones, right? When they stay young at heart, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 10:21 oh, she, she does. So my wife passed in 2022, and now stitch, that's the cat's name, sleeps up next to me. And so that works out well, and she was named stitch when we got her, not quite sure where the name originally came from, but we rescued her. We were not going to keep her. We were going to find her a home because we were living in an apartment. But then I learned that the cat's name was stitch, and I knew that that cat weren't going to go nowhere, because my wife had been a quilter since 1994 you think a quilter is ever going to give up a cat named stitch? So stitch has been with us now for over 10 years. That's great. Oh, wow. And there's a lot of love there,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 11:03 yeah. And, you know, these little connections, right? The Universe sends us, you know, the names and all of that. They send us pets as well as guidance. You know, my little guy is Tinkerbell, and everybody thinks that she's still a kitten. She she's going to be 12 in September, so, but she's still a little tiny thing. She kept the name. She just wants to be a little Tinkerbell. So   Michael Hingson ** 11:24 that's cool. What a cute name for a kitty. Anyway, yeah, well, so you, you grew up? Did you go to to college or university?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 11:34 No, I got out of school. I was half a credit away from high school graduation. I became pregnant for the second time, and then I got married at 18. While it was more or less I was I had no choice to get married or or I would have, my father would have took my daughter from me, my oldest, who is alive, and I I had already lost one, and I wasn't losing a second one. So I got married. I did go back to adult school in 2000 I got I was one exam away from getting my GED, and that night, I got a beating of a lifetime from my ex husband, because he didn't want me to get ahead of him, right? So, and then I went back again to try and get my GED three other times, and I was always four points away from getting what I needed to get it. So I was just like, You know what? The universe doesn't want me to have this piece of paper, I guess. Yeah, and I'm not giving up, right? I'm just it's not the right timing and maybe in the future, and it's always the y and s string that gets me the four point question guys on the math exam that gets me every time, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:49 oh, well. Well, I always thought that my wife, in so many ways, was was ahead of me, and it didn't ever bother me, and it never will bother me a bit, just things that she would say, creative things, just clever things. She clearly was ahead of me, and I think she felt the same way about me in various ways, but that's what made for a great marriage. And we we worked off each other very well, and then that's kind of the way it really ought to be. Oh boy, ego, ego gets to be a real challenge sometimes, though, doesn't   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 13:24 it? Oh yes, it does. So   Michael Hingson ** 13:27 what did you do when you didn't go off and end up going to school?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 13:32 I became a mom, and then I did the mom role, right? I grew up in a kind of like a redneck, hillbilly kind of family where the accent kind of kicks in once in a while. You know, it was barefoot and pregnant, you take care of the kids, cook and clean and be the wife and just obey. Once again, that word obey. You know, I grew up with that word a lot, and that's why you don't like that word. I'm surprised I'm even using it tonight. But, yeah, so it was just take care of the family and just live. And eventually, in 2005 a lot of things happened with my children and myself, and we just left and started a new life. In 2006 I felt ill. I was at work, and my left arm went numb, and I thought I was having a heart attack or or that they were checking me since I was little, for MS as well, because I have a lot of problems with my legs. I fall a lot, so we're still looking into that, because I'm in the age range now where it can be diagnosed, you know, so we're so in 2006 I became ill, and I lost feelings from my hips down where I couldn't walk anymore. So I had to make some tough choices, and I reached out to my family, which I kind of. Figured I'd get that answer from them. They told me to get a backbone and take care of my own life and stop because I moved away from everybody. So I turned to the foster care system to help me with my children, and that was a hard choice. Michael, it took me two and a half months. My children sat down with me and said, Mommy, can we please stay where we are? We we have friends. You know, we're not moving all the time anymore. I saw it took a while, and I signed my kids over legal guardianship, but I made a deal with the services that I would stay in the children's lives. I would continue their visits twice a month, and be at all their graduations, be at their dance recital, anything I was there. I wanted my children to know that I was not giving up on them. I just was not able to take care of them in my   Michael Hingson ** 15:50 home. Did they accept that?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 15:53 Oh, they did, yeah, and it was a bumpy road. The first five years. Was a lot of adjusting, and we were really close. I got to pick the foster homes, which is not usually the way it works. So and my children went through a lot of abuse as well. My ex husband was very abusive, so I knew that my daughter needed to be around horses. She loved to be around horses, so I found her home that had horses. And my other two children, I found a home where they had music, and music was really important to me, because music is what saved me as well during my journey, right? I turned to music to to get through the hard times. So yeah, the first five years was it was adjustments, and really good, and we got along. And after that the services changed, new workers came in, and then it became a nightmare. There was less visits happening. There was an excuse for a visit. There was oh, well, maybe we can reschedule this, or if we do them at five in the morning, can you show up? And of course, I was showing up at five and going to bed as soon as the visit was done, because I was by myself, so it was a journey, but and I I am grateful for that journey, because today me and my older kids, who are adults, were really close, and we're building that bond again, and they understand the journey that Mom had to take in order for them to have a home.   Michael Hingson ** 17:24 They understand it and accept it, which is really obviously the important thing,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 17:30 yeah. But it's been, it's been rocky. Michael, like, you know, we've had our ups and downs. We've had like you You gave up on us. Like, you know, we've had those moments. But my children now becoming adults and becoming parents themselves. They see that. They see what mom had to do, right?   Michael Hingson ** 17:47 So are you able to walk now and move around?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 17:51 Oh, yeah, I was. It took about six months for me to learn how to walk again. I still have a limb from time to time. A lot of people call it my penguin little limp, because I limped like a little penguin from time to time, because my what happened is I went through so much trauma in my life constantly that I they diagnosed me with conversion disorder, which is not really well known to to a lot of people. And what it does is it shuts the body down, so I have no control over when my body says it's going to take a break. It just says I'm going on holidays, and you just gotta deal with it. So there's days where I can't walk, right? There's days where I can't talk. It sounds like I'm drunk. My sight is blurred, plus I'm already losing my sight because of genetic jerusa and stuff like that as well. So, but I mean, it took everything in me to push myself. And what pushed me was I had this nurse that was really rough with me, and she would give me these sponge baths, and she would slam me into the chair. And I told her, I said, next week, you will not be slamming me in that chair. And the next week I got up and I took three steps, and then the next couple hours, it was four, five steps, six steps. And I was like, I got this. I know I can do this, but it took six months, Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 19:15 but still, ultimately, the bottom line is, no rugby or American football for you. Huh? Nope. Okay.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 19:24 No, not you know, not yet. Anyway, well, maybe you never know, right? I'm still young. I'm only 51 you never know what I'm going to be doing next year. I always tell everybody, Miss Liz is always on an adventure.   Michael Hingson ** 19:36 So yeah, but I'm I'm not, I'm not an advocate of going off for rugby or football, but that's all right, do whatever works.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 19:42 Well, I'd like to watch football   19:45 that's different. I'd like to   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 19:47 check those boys out once in a while. Well, yeah, but yeah, no, I You just never know where I'm gonna go, right? Only the good universe knows where it's putting me next   Michael Hingson ** 19:58 year. So, so what kind. Of work. Did you did you do and, and what are you doing now? How to kind of one lead to the other?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 20:08 Actually, I started my business in 2015 of Miss Liz tea times. It was a fundraising Tea Party, but it started in my home. All I did was have a bunch of ladies over and celebrate strong women. And one lady really liked the layout that I did, and she's like, Can we do this in the community? I was like, I don't know. Let's try it. You know, if we don't try, we don't know. And then I went to the community for, I think, three years, we raised over $5,000 for different services that helped me along the way as well, and places that needed money for serving the community. And then we went virtual. When covid hit. The podcast came along, and I did that for five years, and I burnt myself out doing that. I'm an all or nothing kind of girl, so you either get nothing at all, or you get it all at once. So and and now I'm I've been writing and working on stuff and working on an E commerce business with a new way of serving tea, keeping people on their toes and wondering what's coming next. Uh, children's book is coming out soon. Uh, poultry book. So I've just been busy writing and doing a lot of different things.   Michael Hingson ** 21:14 What did you do before 2015 for worker income? Or did you   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 21:18 I worked in gas stations, chambermaid kind of stuff like that, something that wasn't too educated, because my ex husband didn't like that stuff, right? Don't try and be a leader. Don't try and be in the big business world. I'm sure he's his head is spinning now, seeing all the stuff that I'm doing, but that's on him, not me. So, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 21:41 yeah, absolutely, alright, let's get to it. Tell me about tea.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 21:49 Well, tea, tea started at four, and it was my OMA that gave me a cup of tea. And everybody thinks it's the beverage. It's not the beverage. We did have a cup of tea. So there is a beverage, there is a beverage involved. But she gave me words, and when I was little, I didn't understand these words. She said, reflect, recharge and release. And she came from the war in Germany, and she said the first thing I had was a cup of tea when I came to Canada, and she just knew that I was going to have a hard life. She knew that the family was kind of, you know, they had their sicknesses and addictions and stuff like that, so she just knew. And I was a quiet kid. I was always in the corner humming and rocking myself and doing stuff by myself. I didn't want to be around people. I was really loner. And she gave me these words, and these words resonated with me for years, and then I just kept hearing them, and I kept hearing Tea, tea. I know sometimes I'd be sitting in a room Michael by myself, and I'd be like, Okay, I don't want a cup of tea right now. Like, I don't know what this tea is like, but it was like the universe telling me that I needed to get tea out there. And I knew it wasn't a beverage. I knew it was. OMA gave me words. So we gotta bring words to the table. We gotta bring the stories to the table. She was giving me a story. She was telling me to stay strong, to recharge, to reflect, release all of the stuff that all of these things take right, to overcome stuff. You know, we have to reflect on the journey that we were put on, and recharge ourselves when we overdo ourselves and release, releasing and letting go of things that we know will never, ever get an answer to. So,   Michael Hingson ** 23:32 so you, what did you do with all of that? I mean that those are some pretty deep thoughts. Needless to say.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 23:38 Yeah, so I, I started with the tea time at home, and then when I went to the podcast, I would ask people, What is your tea? And then people were like, Miss Liz, I don't even like tea, like I'm a coffee drinker, or I like a good beer, or I'm just like, Okay, well, you don't even have to like the beverage. Like, it's not about the beverage. It's about our past, our present and our future. That's what the tea is, right? We all have that story. We all have the past, the present and the future, and how we how we look at it, and how we defined our stories, and how we tell our stories. So that's where the T is.   Michael Hingson ** 24:10 But you came up with words for the acronym eventually, yes, yes. When did you do that? And what were the words   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 24:20 I came up with the words I believe in 20, 2016 2017 and for me, it was teaching. I wanted to be a little kindergarten teacher when I was a little girl. So T was teaching right and teaching myself that the past was not going to define my future story. He was educational. I again. I wanted to be a teacher. I wanted to educate people. I wanted to educate myself. Even though I didn't have those degrees and I didn't go to school and universities, I could still educate myself. I could still reach out. I could still research. I could still find answers myself. And a was awareness, just bringing awareness that our lives are different and. Can change them, right? Nobody can define how our stories end, except for ourselves. Yeah, and the A, A was awareness, and the awareness that, you know, that we can bring any form of awareness, good, bad or ugly, you know, and I bring a little bit of all of it through my stories, and through, through the the overcoming that I've had, right is, it's an ugly story. There were bad things that happened, but there are good results in the end, yeah, because had I not gone through what I went through, Michael, I would not be here having this conversation with you tonight,   Michael Hingson ** 25:37 or it'd be a totally different conversation, if at all you're right, absolutely. So you you deal a lot with being a mental health advocate, and that's very understandable, because of all of the things that that you went through. But what kind of really made you decide to do that?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 25:58 Mental health advocate was deep in my blood since 2010 when I went to the pharmacy and gave them all my medication and said, I no longer want any of this because they had me so numbed with antidepressants and painkillers and stuff that I didn't even know I had children. People were telling me, your kids are coming for a visit. And I was like, why are you telling me I have kids? Like I'm a kid myself, like I was going backwards. And I didn't know that I was married, that I had children, but my kids names were and I was just like, like, When is mom and dad coming to get me? Like, I was like, I was so messed up, Michael. And I was just like, I'm not doing this anymore. Um, August 29 of 2009 I brought my medication, and I said, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm taking ownership of my life. I'm being the advocate of my life. I do not need these pills. Yes, it will be hard, yes, I've got trauma, but there's another way of doing this.   Michael Hingson ** 26:55 Well, you're clearly a survivor, and you've made choices that demonstrate that by any standards, and obviously a mental health advocate, what do you think are some of the major misconceptions that people have about mental health today that they also just don't seem to want to get rid of?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 27:15 Well, a lot of people have this conception that if you take a pill, it's going to go away. You're healed, you know, and then they get hooked on pills, or they get hooked on this is easy fix, right? Like I said this afternoon in another interview, I did this certain this afternoon. Michael, you know, we get these diagnosis, but doctors don't really sit with us and explain the diagnosis to us, they don't really understand. They don't really explain the side effects of the pills that they're giving us, and then themselves, may not even know the full aspect of those diagnosis. They just put you on a checklist, right? You check A, B, C and D, okay. Well, you have bipolar. You got DCE and you got D ID, like, you know, it's charts, so we're not really taking the time to understand people. And mental health has a long way to go, a lot of a long way to break the stigma as well, because mental illness, most of it, cannot be seen. It cannot be understood, because it's inside the body, right?   Michael Hingson ** 28:23 Yeah. And a lot of people don't want to look and analyze that and try to help truly deal with it.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 28:32 Yeah. A lot of people will judge what they don't understand or what they're scared of understanding,   Michael Hingson ** 28:39 which is why it's fascinating, and we've had a number of people on unstoppable mindset who believe in Eastern medicine and alternative medicine, as opposed to just doing pills. And it's fascinating to talk to people, because they bring such insights into the conversation about the human body, and many of them have themselves, used these alternatives to cure or better themselves, so it makes perfect sense, but yeah, we still don't tend to want to deal with it. Yeah?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 29:17 Well, anything that's uncomfortable, right? We don't want to really face it, right? We want to run from it, or we want to say, Oh, it's fine. I'll get to it next week, and then next week comes to next month, and next month comes to next year, and you're still dealing with the the same trauma and the same pain, right? Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 29:35 Well, so tell me about tea time with Miss Liz, because you've developed that. You've brought it into existence, and that obviously also helps deal with the mental health stigma. Tell me about that?   29:50 Well, I just   Michael Hingson ** 29:51 one question, but, well,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 29:53 I just really wanted to meet people, and I wanted to hear their stories, you know, because it gets lonely once in a while. And you're always telling your story, right? So I wanted to get other stories, but I didn't want to just deal with mental health. I wanted to deal with grief and abuse and things, everything that I've lived with, right? And it all goes back to trauma, like all three of them, abuse, grief, mental health, it deals with trauma in some form. And then I got, I got hooked to a bunch of people that found Miss Liz on on the airwaves, and then connected with you, Michael, you were a guest on Tea Time. Yeah, my last season, and, you know, and I got to go down a bunch of rabbit holes with a bunch of cool people. And tea time was just a place for everybody, just to come and share, share what they were doing and why they were doing it, right? So a lot a lot of the questions that I asked was your younger self way? What? How do you see your younger self to your older self, and why are you doing what you're doing today? And a lot of people are writing books because writing saved them through hard times in life as well. And a lot of mental health back in the 60s, 70s and 80s, were not spoken of. You know, it was really hush hush. Oh, that person's just a rebel, or that person's just a little crazy once in a while, or has too much to drink from time to time. So mental health wasn't really spoken about in those those decades, right? So,   Michael Hingson ** 31:27 yeah, and you know, but I hear what you're saying about writing, and you know, I I've written now three books, and I've learned a lot as I write each book, and I think there's a lot of value in it, but also it's more than writing, although writing is is a way to to really do it from the most personal standpoint possible. But as as you've pointed out, talking about it is also extremely important, and talking about whatever, whether it's a bad thing or a good thing, but talking about it as well as writing about it is is valuable, because if we take the time to do all of that, we'll learn a lot more than we think we will well.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 32:13 And there's so many different genres of writing, right? There's horror, there's fiction, there's non fiction, there's children's books, you know, but those are all storytellers too, in a different way.   Michael Hingson ** 32:24 Well, they are and and again, it's the the point is, though, that when you take the time to write, you really have to think about it, probably even more than, sometimes, than people, when they just talk about things. And as you're writing, like I said, you learn a lot no matter what genre of writing you're doing, you're putting yourself into it, and that, in of itself, helps educate and teach you   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 32:53 absolutely, you know, and I learned so much from a lot of the authors that were on Tea Time, You know, little tricks and little ways of making skits and scenes and characters and names for their characters. And I'd be like, well, where'd you get that name? And they'd be like, I don't know what, just a childhood name that was stuck with me for a long time. I really liked meeting authors that wrote their memoirs or stories, because I'm a person that likes truth. I'm a truth seeker. You know, if it doesn't, it doesn't match up. I'm just like, let me ask you more questions. Let me take you down this rabbit hole a little more. So,   Michael Hingson ** 33:35 yeah, well, a lot of people tend to not want to talk about their journey or talk about themselves, and they feel unseen and unheard. How would you advise them? What would you advise them to do?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 33:51 I felt that way for many years. Michael, growing up in the in the situation that I grew up in, right? You did, and I wrote my first book. I was a co author in the Sacred Hearts rising series by compiled by Brenda Hammond in Alberta. And her book, hear me, kept reaching out to me. I kept hearing I didn't even know what the book was. It was just the title was hear me. And I kept saying, I want people to hear me. I want I want to be heard like, I want people to know this, like I'm tired of living in silence, you know, just to keep everybody hush hush, because everybody's comfortable. So I reached out to Brenda, and that's how my writing journey started. Was with Brenda, and I wrote my first chapter in there, and and it just continued to the ripple effect into other books and other anthologies and other people. And I find that the universe is guiding me, like bringing me to the people that I need to see. You know, like meeting you. Michael, like, had I not started a podcast and met Mickey Mickelson, I would have never met you. Michael, so Mm hmm.   Michael Hingson ** 34:54 And he continues to to be a driving force in helping a lot of authors. Absolutely.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 35:00 Absolutely, yeah. I'm not even sure how Mickey found me. We had a video call, and the next thing I knew, we were working together for three years, and I got to meet incredible authors through Mickey. Creative edge, and it's, it was one of the driving force of Tea Time with Miss Liz.   Michael Hingson ** 35:19 I can't remember exactly how I first heard of Mickey, either, but we we chatted, and we've been working together ever since.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 35:29 Yeah, Mickey is pretty awesome. I still keep my eyes on Mickey, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 35:36 and for those who don't know, Mickey is kind of a publicist. He works with authors and helps find podcasts and other opportunities for authors to talk about what they do and to interact with the world.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 35:50 Yeah. And then I got Yeah. And then I got to meet other people that found me on the airwave, through my press releases and through me speaking at different events. I had other people reach out with their authors and their members and all of that. And I got to meet some really incredible people, like I've had doctors on Tea Time. I've had Hollywood directors on Tea Time. I've had best selling authors like yourself Michael, like, you know, I got to meet some really incredible people. And then I got to meet other people as well that were doing movements and orphanages and stuff like that. We reached over 72 countries, you know, just people reaching out and saying, Hey, Miss Liz, can we have tea? And absolutely, let's sit down. Let's see what? Where you gotta go with your tea?   Michael Hingson ** 36:35 So you're in another season of tea time right now. No,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 36:39 I'm not. A lot of people are asking me to come back. I don't know if I will come back. I am working on, like I said, the E commerce drop shipping company for Miss Liz. I'm working on children's book. I'm working on poultry. I'm doing a lot of interviews now for my own books, daytime books and stuff like that. But I am reconsidering coming back maybe for a couple surprise podcast interviews. So   Michael Hingson ** 37:07 well, tell us about the E commerce site, the store.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 37:11 Well, that was supposed to be launched on my birthday. I like to give myself birthday gifts because I'm by myself a lot. So two years ago, I gave myself the tea books for my birthday. And this year I was supposed to give the E commerce drop shipping, where we opened a second branch of Miss Liz's tea, where we changed the letter A to E, so T, E, E instead of T, E, A. But if you look at my OMA, who comes from Germany, T in Germany, is tee, so we're still keeping almost T, we're just bringing it in a different way. And   Michael Hingson ** 37:45 what does it stand for? Do you have definition   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 37:50 of it for the for this T? We have transcend embrace and envision. So transcend beyond the story that we all tell. Embrace Your embrace the journey that you're on and envision your dreams and visions that you can move forward.   Michael Hingson ** 38:07 So how's the E commerce site coming?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 38:11 It's coming along. We got a couple of hiccups. I just want to make sure that everything is good to go. We have over 100 different products, and again, we do not have the tea beverage on the site. So you guys can see that Miss Liz is staying true to herself, that it is not about a beverage, but we do have an inner journey happening. So you'll have to check that out. So we have some some candles and some journals, some fashion that Miss Liz has created. So there's a lot of cool things that you'll see, and then we have some collaboration. So if any of the businesses out there would like to collaborate with missus, because I'm big on collaboration, we can maybe come up with a brand or or a journal or something that we can work two brands together to create a bigger inner journey for people   Michael Hingson ** 39:02 to enjoy. Is the site up.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 39:05 It was up, and we had to take it down because there were some glitches in it, and I wanted to make sure that it so we're hoping that it's going to be going for June 1. I don't like to set dates, because then I get disappointed, right? If something comes up. So it was supposed to be May 17, guys, and I know that a lot of people were looking forward to it. My children were looking forward to it because of the fashion. And there's something for everyone on on the new website, for children, for parent, for mothers, for fathers, for family. So I wanted to make sure that everybody was included.   Michael Hingson ** 39:41 Tell me about some of the fashion things.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 39:44 So we have inner journeys. So I had an eating disorder from the age of 12 Michael, so I had a body image all the time. So I wanted to make sure that we felt beautiful about ourselves. So we have some summer dresses. In there, we have some swimwear. Swimwear was another thing that I didn't really like to wear growing up. I like to be covered a lot. So we and then we have undergarments for people to feel beautiful within themselves. And then we have hoodies and T shirts. But we have messages, little tea messages from Miss Liz.   Michael Hingson ** 40:23 Now, are most of these fashion things mainly for women, or are there some men ones on there as well?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 40:28 No, we have men. Men have stories too. So there, there's, I thought. So, yeah, we have men in there. We and we have, I'm really big on having men share their stories, because I have a son. I've said this on many platforms. I would want my son to have the same services that his mother has. So of course, there's a men where in there, there are children's wear in there as well, and there's some puzzles and some diamond art and all of that. So there's a little bit of everything in there.   Michael Hingson ** 41:00 So how do you use all of the different mechanisms that you have to promote awareness? I think I know the answer to this, but I'd like you to tell how you're promoting awareness, mental health and otherwise awareness.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 41:15 I think the way that I'm promoting myself and my brand, Michael is just show up and be yourself, believe in yourself and stay true to yourself, be your real tea, you know. And the way that I'm branding and marketing it is, I'm breathing different. So when you hear tea, you think the beverage right away. Well, then when you hear Miss Liz, you know, Miss Liz is not bringing a beverage. So right over the way you're getting different, right? And I like to keep people on your toes, because they think that they might know what's coming, but they don't know same as, like the fashion, where you might think you know what's coming, but then you'll be like, Whoa. This is not what I was thinking.   Michael Hingson ** 41:54 And you and you put as you said, sayings and other things on there, which help promote awareness as   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 41:59 well. Absolutely, yeah, and it's simple phrases that I use all the time. You tell me, I can't, and I'll show you I can. You know, it lives in you. These are some of the brand messages that I have on my on my merchandise. Also, men have stories too simple phrases. You know that we just gotta make awareness. It's so simple sometimes that we overthink it and we overdo it, that we just gotta keep it simple.   Michael Hingson ** 42:28 Mm, hmm. Which? Which make perfect sense? Yeah. So you, you talk a lot about mental health. Have we made improvements in society regarding mental health, and how do we do more to represent marginalized voices? Oh,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 42:50 we got lots of work to do. Michael, we're not even close, you know, we're just on the touch of the iceberg for mental health. We have all these organizations that are competing with each other instead of collaborating. I think we would really make a huge difference if we started working together instead of against each other. Or my service is better than your service. Let's start just collaborating together and working together as one. You know that all this division in the mental health world is what's causing the distractions and the delays in services and and getting help? You know, I think we just need to start working together. And collaboration is not weakness. It's not taking somebody else's product away. It's working together. It's teamwork. And I think we need more teamwork out there.   Michael Hingson ** 43:41 We also need to somehow do more to educate the governments to provide some of the funding that they should be providing to help this process.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 43:51 Absolutely, and I think the statuses need to really be looked at. They're not even close.   Michael Hingson ** 43:59 Yeah, I I agree there, there's a long way to go to to deal with it,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 44:04 absolutely. You know, just throwing numbers out there to have numbers, but not actually getting the real factual information out there can cause a lot more damage.   Michael Hingson ** 44:17 So if you could shift one mindset regarding mental health, what would it   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 44:24 be? Oh, good question. Michael, hmm, that we're not alone, okay, because a lot of people with mental illness think they're alone, but we're actually not alone. There's, there's a lot of people out there that are feeling the same thing as us,   Michael Hingson ** 44:47 and that's a mindset that people have, that we need to to deal with. We need to change. We need to teach people that the reality. Is there a lot of people, whether they've experienced the same things as as any individual has or not, isn't the issue. But there are a lot of people who do want to be more welcoming, and there are a lot of people who could learn to be more welcoming than they are   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 45:18 absolutely Well, I think it starts with a conversation, right? Having these conversations, a lot of people don't want to talk about mental health because they don't want to know the truth. They just want to know what society says, right, what the system say, what the services say, but they're not actually advocating for themselves. I think if we all started advocating for our mental health, we would make the impact and the change as well,   Michael Hingson ** 45:45 yeah, but we need to really, somehow develop a collective voice and Absolutely, and that's part of the problem. I know that with the world of disabilities in general, the difficulty is that, although it is probably well, it is one of the largest minorities, maybe the second largest in the world, depending on whether you want to consider women the minority. Although there are more women than men, or men the minority, the reality is that the difficulty is that there are so many different kinds of disabilities that we face and some that we don't even recognize. But the problem is that everyone totally interacts within their own disability to the point where they don't find ways to work together nearly as as much as they can. And it doesn't mean that each disability isn't unique, because they are, and that needs to be addressed, but there's a lot more power if people learn to work together   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 46:46 exactly. I'm with you, with that, Michael, because there's so many disabilities that you don't see right, that you don't hear about, somebody will talk about a new diagnosis that nobody knows about or is unaware of, like when I, when I talk about conversion disorder, a lot of people don't know about it, and I'm just like, check it out. You know, I'm a lady that actually has crazy papers, so if I go a little crazy on people, I can get away with it. I got the paper for it, right? So, but the thing is, the doctors, they they need more education as well. They need to be educated as well, not just the society, not just the public, but also the doctors that are working in those   Michael Hingson ** 47:29 fields. There's so many examples of that. You know, website access for people with disabilities is a major issue, and we don't teach in most schools, in most places where we where we have courses to instruct people on how to code, we don't really make making websites inclusive and accessible a major part of the courses of study, and so the result is that we don't tend to provide a mechanism where people shift their mindset and realize how important it is to make sure that their websites are fully inclusive to all. It's the same kind of concept. Yeah.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 48:12 Well, I think we all could learn a little bit more, right when we when we all get to this point where we we've learned everything. I think that's where society gets ignorant towards disability, right? You know, living with disability myself, Michael, I've had a lot of people say, Well, you look fine. There's nothing wrong with you. Why? Why? Why you like this? You know, why? And my answer is, why are you that way? Why are you judging something you're not seeing? You know, it's just like in grief, you don't see grief. It lives within us. You don't see abuse. The person is usually living within a home that is told what happens in the home. Stays in a home, you know, or they they try to mask it and hide the real truth, right? Yeah, and that, and that's a form of trauma as well, because we're being told to hush. So then when we start speaking, well, then we start doubting ourselves, right? The self doubt kicks in, oh, maybe I shouldn't say that, or I shouldn't do that, or I shouldn't, you know, be there. So you start to self doubt everything. I did that for many years. I self doubt why I was in a room with a bunch of people, or why I was speaking at that event, or why I wrote in that book, or and then I was just like, You know what? I am enough, and we all are enough, and we all can be seen in a different light. My   Michael Hingson ** 49:41 favorite example illustrating some of what you're talking about is that I had a phone conversation with someone once, and arranged for them to come to our apartment. I was on campus at the time, living in an on campus apartment, and the guy came out that afternoon, and I answered the door and he said, I'm looking for Michael Hinks. And I said, I'm Michael. Hanks, and his comment was, you didn't sound blind on the telephone. Now, I've never understood what it means to sound blind, but whatever. Wow. Yeah, it's, it's amazing, you know. And I was polite enough not to say, Well, you didn't sound stupid on the phone either. But yeah,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 50:22 right, that that would, that would be something I would say. Now, back in the day, I was a little mouse, now I'm a lion, and I'm just like, oh, yeah, right. Like, tap for Taft man, like,   Michael Hingson ** 50:33 Well, yeah, but there, there are ways to deal with things like that. But it, it still worked out. But it was just an amazing thing that he said, yeah,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 50:43 it surprises me what some people say. Sometimes I'm just like, Really, wow.   Michael Hingson ** 50:50 So you've done well, a lot of international speaking. Where have you traveled to speak?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 50:55 I spoke in Detroit in 2020, 20 or 2021, I can't remember the year Michael, but I spoke at the Sean fair tour, and I spoke on tea, of course, and my journey, and my story and my journey on how I'm just a different woman who wants to come to the table and make a difference. I just want to show people that if as long as we're trying, we can make a difference, as long as we're showing up, tired, broke, frustrated, we're making a difference, you know? And that's, that's my message to everybody, is just show up, just be you, and not everybody needs to like you, you know. I'm not everyone's cup of tea, and I don't want to be everyone's cup of tea.   Michael Hingson ** 51:38 Mm, hmm. You can only do and should only do what you do, yeah, but   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 51:44 And yeah. And then I'll be speaking in October. I just spoke at an event here in Cornwall, in my local area, for empowered to recovery with Jay Bernard. Bernard, and in October, I'll be speaking in North Bay for an elementary student, my sister and she actually went to school with my sister. She actually found me through my books. And she's she runs this youth group, and she'd like me to go speak to the youths on empowerment and and and the tea, of course,   Michael Hingson ** 52:16 always worth talking to kids. It's so much fun. Yeah. Yeah. And the neat thing about the most neat thing about speaking to children is there's so much more uninhibited. They're not afraid to ask questions, which is so great.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 52:32 I love questions like, I I love when I talk to people and they have some questions like, What? What is this tea that you keep talking about? And I'm just like, the tea is just the grab guys. It's just to get you hooked. It's like going fishing and catching a good fish, like, I put the hook in the water, and you all come and you join and you have a tea with me.   Michael Hingson ** 52:56 But still, children are so much more uninhibited. If, if I deliver a talk, mainly to kids, even kindergarten through sixth or seventh grade, they're much more open to asking questions. Sometimes they have to be encouraged a little bit. But boy, when the questions start, the kids just keep coming up with them, which is so great.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 53:20 Great. It's that ripple effect that first person to break the ice, to ask the first question, and then it just rolls.   Michael Hingson ** 53:26 It's a lot harder with adults to get them to to do that. Yeah, and it is. It is, even then, though, when adults start to ask questions, and the questions open up, then we get a lot of good interactions, but it is more of a challenge to get adults to open and ask questions than it is children. And it's so much fun because you never know what question a child is going to ask, which is what makes it so fun, too, because there's so much more uninhibited   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 54:01 and the imagination of a child. I love speaking like what my granddaughter, she's four, and the conversations we have about dragons and tooth fairies and and good monsters, because I don't like bad monsters, she knows grandma doesn't like bad monsters, so we talk about good monsters. And it's just the stories, the imagination, that opens up new, new ways of seeing things and seeing life. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 54:29 you've gotten a number of awards, humanitarian awards, and and other kinds of awards. Tell me a little bit about those.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 54:36 Honestly, Michael, I don't know how I got those awards. I was just being myself, and I guess a lot of people nominated me for stuff, and they were just like, you gotta check this. Miss Liz out, you know, and even some awards, I'm just like, Why me? You know, all I did was be myself. I'm grateful for them, I and I appreciate the awards. But. I don't, I don't want to be known for the awards, if that makes any sense.   Michael Hingson ** 55:03 Mm, hmm, I understand well, but you've been successful. What does success mean to you?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 55:10 Success means showing up for myself.   Michael Hingson ** 55:14 Tell me more about that.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 55:17 Of course. You know, success is different for everybody, right? Some people want the million dollars they want. They want the best seller they want. You know, they want the big business. They want the big house. For me, success is just showing up. Growing up. Nobody showed up for me. So I knew at a young age I had to show up for myself, and that was my success story. Was just showing up. There's days I really don't want to be here. I'm just tired of showing up, but I still show up tired, you know. So that's my success story, and I think that's going to be my success story until the day I die. Michael is just show up.   Michael Hingson ** 55:58 Well, there's a lot to be said for showing up, and as long as you do show up, then people get to see you, right? Yeah, which is, which is the whole point. And again, as we talked about earlier, that's the choice that you made. So you decided that you were going to show up and you were going to be you, and you also talk about it, which is, I think, extremely important, because so many people won't, not a criticism. But last year, I spoke at the Marshfield, Missouri Cherry Blossom Festival in April of 2024 and it was a and every year they hold this festival, and it's a celebration of American history. One of the people there was a secret service agent who rode in the car right behind JFK when he was assassinated, and it took him 45 years before he could talk about it. It was that traumatic for him, and he just wasn't able to move on. Eventually he was able to talk about it, and he was at the festival, as I was last year, and did speak about it. But it's it is hard, it is a major endeavor and effort to make the choice to show up, to to face whatever you have to deal with and move on from it or move on with it. I, you know, I talk about Karen, my wife passing, and I will never say I move on from Karen. I continue to move forward, but I don't want to move on. I don't want to forget her Absolutely. And there's a big difference between moving on and moving forward. I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, no, go ahead. Michael, no, that's it.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 57:45 You know, we look at life differently, right? Different perspectives and, and that's the whole thing with the T is looking at life differently. We all have a past, we all have a present, and we all have a future, right? And it's how we look at our past. Do we stay stuck in our past, like a lot of people are, mislead your in the past? No, I'm not. I speak of the past, but I'm not in the past. I'm in the present moment, and my trauma is real and it's raw, and I'm dealing with it, and I'm healing from it. And the future, I don't know where the future's taking me. I just buckle up and go for the adventure and see where it takes me. If it means writing another book or it means taking a trip or getting a job in a third world country, that's where I go. I'm, you know, moving forward from all of the trauma that I've lived through. I don't want to forget it. Mm, hmm. A lot of people like I would you change anything? No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't change a single thing.   Michael Hingson ** 58:45 There's a difference between remembering and being aware of it and being bitter and hating it. And I think that's the important part,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 58:53 yeah. And speaking of the past is not it's not a bad thing. It because the past is part of us, right? We were little kids once upon a time like there, you know, not everything was all bad. There was good moments. You know, there was more bad times for me than there was good, but there were good moments. I had good memories of spending with my grandparents on the farm and, you know, playing in the wrecked up cars and pretending I was a race car driver and stuff like that, you know, playing in the mud, making mud pies, putting them in the oven. You know, these were good memories that I have, you know, so those are what I hold on to. I hold on to the good stuff. I don't hold on to that heavy stuff.   Michael Hingson ** 59:33 Well, at least at this point, what do you see in the future for Miss Liz   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 59:39 travel? I so want to travel. I, you know, I've traveled the world, well, 72 countries, in this rocking chair. I would like to take this rocking chair in person. I would like to have a stage. I would like to have people come and talk and share their stories on a miss Liz's platform stage. That is the goal for Miss Liz.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:01 To travel and to really meet people from a lot of new and different places,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:00:07 absolutely, and meet all the guests I had on Tea Time. That is one of my goals. So when the universe gets on my good side, maybe I'll be traveling and meeting you face to face one day, Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:18 or we'll travel up there when, when we can, I know right now there are many challenges because of our governments putting roadblocks in the way. I've applied to speak at several events in Canada, and I've been told right now, well, the political situation, political situation is such that we can't really bring anybody in from the United States. And, you know, I understand that. I I think that there's so much to add, but I also understand that they don't want to take those chances, and that's fine.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:00:48 Yeah, we've been told the same, no traveling, vice versa. There's so, you know, it will calm itself down. We just got to give it some   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:57 time. It will, you know, it isn't going to go on forever, and we'll just have to deal with it. Well, if you had the opportunity to go back and give your younger Miss Liz some advice, what would it be? Drink More tea. Drink More tea of the liquid kind or the other kind.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:01:17 No. Drink the real stuff like drink, the beverage, drink the real stuff. Like, you know, speaking of tea all the time, you know, my favorite tea is jasmine tea. I wish I could drink more jasmine tea, but when I drink jasmine tea, it brings it brings back a memory of my Uma, and it it's hard for me so but drink more tea, like, actually sit down and have more conversations with OMA and see what else OMA had in   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:44 the back there for her. Yeah. Well, there you go. Well, I, I must say, I've never been a coffee drinker, but I got converted to drinking tea years ago, and I've been doing it ever since. My favorite is PG Tips, black tea, and I can get it from Amazon, so we do it.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:01:59 That's a good one too. Yeah, I'm not a real big tea drinker, but guys, I do know a little bit about tea.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:06 Well, I drink it more because it's a hot drink and it's got less calories than hot chocolate. Otherwise, I would be drinking hot chocolate all the time. But after September 11, I tend to clear my throat a lot, so drinking hot beverages helps, and I've just never liked coffee like I've learned to like tea, so I drink tea.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:02:26 Yeah. What's for you? Yeah, he's good for you. Look what it did to me. It made me who I am today.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:32 There you are in so many ways. Well, I want to than

In October 2023, a 40-year-old man armed with semi-automatic rifle opened fire inside a bowling alley and later at a nearby restaurant in the small city of Lewiston, Maine. Between the two incidents, 18 people died and 13 were injured. Disturbingly, the Lewiston shooting was one for more than 650 mass shootings in the United States in 2023, defined as a shooting event with four or more victims. With the U.S. continuing to experience hundreds of these incidents every year, police, fire, EMS, and organizations like the American Red Cross are refining how they prepare and respond to these incidents.  On today's podcast, we talk with John Montes, who led the Red Cross's response and recovery efforts in Lewiston and was also instrumental in developing NFPA 3000, the standard for Active Shooter/Hostile Response program. I talked to Montes about the complexities of the Lewiston response, what lessons were learned, and what safety agencies should be doing now to prepare for mass shooting incidents.  LINKS Learn more about the American Red Cross Read up on the creation of NFPA 3000, and one city's journey to implementing it. Visit the document information page of NFPA 3000

Little Voice stars Jane Horrocks as LV, an introverted young woman with an amazing singing voice. We discuss the film's origins as a stage production, and the themes of abuse and loss. Our first dive into the Disney-owned era of Miramax. Music from https://filmmusic.io "Glitter Blast" by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/) All our social media links:  https://linktr.ee/rewatchingthemagic If you're able, please give blood. The American Red Cross: https://www.redcross.org/ Immigrant Legal Resource Center: http://www.ilrc.org Trans Life: http:/www.translife.org Reproductive rights are human rights. LGBTQ+ rights are human rights.

While I discuss often how I prepared for an emergency while working in the World Trade Center I, of course, did not anticipate anything happening that would threaten my life. However, when a major emergency occurred, I was in fact ready. I escaped and survived. Since September 11, 2001, I have met many people who in one way or another work to help others plan for emergencies. Sometimes these people are taken seriously and, all too often, they are ignored.   I never truly understood the difference between emergency preparedness and business continuity until I had the opportunity to have this episode's guest, Chris Miller, on Unstoppable Mindset. I met Chris as a result of a talk I gave in October 2024 at the conference on Resilience sponsored in London England by the Business Continuity Institute.   Chris was born and lived in Australia growing up and, in fact, still resides there. After high school she joined the police where she quickly became involved in search and rescue operations. As we learn, she came by this interest honestly as her father and grandfather also were involved in one way or another in law enforcement and search and rescue.   Over time Chris became knowledgeable and involved in training people about the concept of emergency preparedness.   Later she expanded her horizons to become more involved in business continuity. As Chris explains it, emergency preparedness is more of a macro view of keeping all people safe and emergency preparedness aware. Business Continuity is more of a topic that deals with one business at a time including preparing by customizing preparedness based on the needs of that business.   Today Chris is a much sought after consultant. She has helped many businesses, small and large, to develop continuity plans to be invoked in case of emergencies that could come from any direction.     About the Guest:   Chris has decades of experience in all aspects of emergency and risk management including enterprise risk management. For 20 years, she specialised in ‘full cycle' business continuity management, organisational resilience, facilitating simulation exercises and after-action reviews.   From January 2022 to July 2024, Chris worked as a Short-Term Consultant (STC) with the World Bank Group in Timor-Leste, the Kingdom of Eswatini (formerly Swaziland) and the South Asia Region (SAR) countries – Bhutan, Bangladesh, Nepal, India, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, and Thailand.   Other clients have ranged in size from 2 to more than 100,000 employees. She has worked with large corporates such as NewsCorp; not for profits; and governments in Australia and beyond.   Chris has received several awards for her work in business continuity and emergency management. Chris has presented at more than 100 conferences, facilitated hundreds of workshops and other training, in person and virtually. In 2023, Chris became the first woman to volunteer to become National President and chair the Board of the Australasian Institute of Emergency Services (AIES) in its soon to be 50-year history.   Ways to connect with Chris:   https://b4crisis.com.au/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrismillerb4crisis/ with 10+K followers https://x.com/B4Crisis with 1990 followers     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. . Well, hi everyone, and I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, and today, I guess we get to talk about the unexpected, because we're going to be chatting with Chris Miller. Chris is in Australia and has been very heavily involved in business continuity and emergency management, and we'll talk about all that. But what that really comes down to is that she gets to deal with helping to try to anticipate the unexpected when it comes to organizations and others in terms of dealing with emergencies and preparing for them. I have a little bit of sympathy and understanding about that myself, as you all know, because of the World Trade Center, and we got to talk about it in London last October at the Business Continuity Institute, which was kind of fun. And so we get to now talk about it some more. So Chris, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Chris Miller ** 02:22 Oh, thanks very much, Michael, and I was very impressed by your presentation, because in the emergency space, preparedness is everything that is the real return on investment. So you were wonderful case study of preparedness.   Michael Hingson ** 02:37 Well, thank you. Now I forget were you there or were you listening or watching virtually.   Chris Miller ** 02:42 I was virtual that time. I have been there in person for the events in London and elsewhere. Sometimes they're not in London, sometimes in Birmingham and other major cities, yeah, but yeah, I have actually attended in person on one occasion. So it's a long trip to go to London to go.   Michael Hingson ** 03:03 Yeah, it is. It's a little bit of a long trip, but still, it's something that, it is a subject worth talking about, needless to say,   Chris Miller ** 03:13 Absolutely, and it's one that I've been focusing on for more than 50 years.   Michael Hingson ** 03:18 Goodness, well, and emergencies have have been around for even longer, but certainly we've had our share of emergencies in the last 50 years.   Chris Miller ** 03:30 Sure have in your country and mine, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 03:34 Well, let's start maybe, as I love to do, tell us a little bit about the early Chris growing up and all that sort of stuff that's funny to talk about the early days.   Chris Miller ** 03:47 Well, I came from a family that loved the mountains, and so it was sort of natural that I would sort of grow up in the mountains close to where I was born, in Brisbane and southeast Queensland. And we have a series of what we call coastal ranges, or border ranges, between Queensland and New South Wales, which are two of the largest states in Australia. And so I spent a lot of time hunting around there. So I sort of fell into emergency management just by virtue of my parents love of the mountains and my familiarity with them and and then I joined the police, and in no time at all, I was training other people to do search and rescues. And that was me in the early days.   Michael Hingson ** 04:31 What got you involved in dealing with search and rescue?   Chris Miller ** 04:36 Oh, it was volunteer in those days. It still is now actually with the State Emergency Service, but it's sort of become more formalized. It used to be sort of, you know, friends and family and people that knew the territory would help out from somebody managed to get themselves a bit tangled up some of those coastal ranges, even to this day, I. You can't use GPS because it's rain forest, and so the rain forest canopy is so dense that you'd have to cut trees down, and it's a national park, you can't do that and or climb the tree. Good luck with that one. You still can't get satellite coverage, so you actually have to know the country. But what?   Michael Hingson ** 05:24 What caused you to actually decide to take that up or volunteer to do that? That's, you know, pretty, pretty interesting, I would think, but certainly something that most people don't tend to do.   Chris Miller ** 05:38 Well, my family's interest in there. My parents have always been very community minded, so, you know, and it's the Australian way, if someone needs help and you can help, you throw them do so,   Michael Hingson ** 05:51 okay, that makes sense. So you joined the police, and you got very much involved in in dealing with search and rescue. And I would presume, knowing you, that you became pretty much an expert in it as much as one can.   Chris Miller ** 06:06 Oh, well, I wouldn't be so reckless as to say experts, because there's always so much to learn. And, yeah, and the systems keep changing. I mean, with GPS and and, for instance, in the early days of search and rescue helicopters were a rare treat. Now they're sort of part of the fabric of things. And now there's drones, and there's all sorts of high tech solutions that have come into the field in the lengthy time that I've been involved in. It's certainly not just ramping around the bush and hoping to find someone it's a lot more complex, but   Michael Hingson ** 06:41 as you but as you pointed out, there are still places where all the tech in the world isn't necessarily going to help. Is it   Chris Miller ** 06:52 exactly and interestingly, my mother in her teenage years, was involved with a fellow called Bernard O'Reilly, and he did a fantastic rescue of a plane crash survivors and and he he claimed that he saw a burnt tree in the distance. Well, I've stood on the Rift Valley where he claimed to see the burnt tree, and, my goodness, he's also it must have been better than mine, because it's a long way, but he was a great believer in God, and he believed that God led him to these people, and he saved them. And it's fascinating to see how many people, over the years, have done these amazing things. And Bernard was a very low key sort of fellow, never one to sort of see publicity, even though he got more than He probably wanted. And they've been television series and movies and, goodness knows, books, many books written about this amazing rescue. So I sort of grew up with these stories of these amazing rescues. And my father came from Tasmania, where his best friend David ended up mountain rescue. So I sort of was born into it. It was probably in my genes, and it just no escaping   Michael Hingson ** 08:12 you came into it naturally, needless to say, so that just out of curiosity, you can answer or not. But where does all of this put you in terms of believing in God,   Chris Miller ** 08:25 oh, well, there's probably been points in my life where I've been more of a believer than ever.   Michael Hingson ** 08:33 Yeah. Well, there. There are a lot of things that happen that often times we we seem not to be able to explain, and we we chalk it up to God's providence. So I suppose you can take that as you will. I've talked about it before on unstoppable mindset, but one of my favorite stories of the World Trade Center on September 11 was a woman who normally got up at seven every morning. She got up, got dressed, went to the World Trade Center where she worked. I forget what floor she was on, but she was above where the planes would have hit, and did hit. But on this particular day, for some reason, she didn't set her alarm to go off at 7am she set it accidentally to go off at 7pm so she didn't get up in time, and she survived and wasn't in the World Trade Center at all. So what was that? You know, they're just so many stories like that, and it, it certainly is a reason to keep an open mind about things nevertheless,   Chris Miller ** 09:39 well, and I've also worked with a lot of Aboriginal people and with the World Bank, with with other people that have, perhaps beliefs that are different to what we might consider more traditional beliefs in Western society. And it's interesting how their spirituality their belief system. Yeah. Has often guided them too soon.   Michael Hingson ** 10:03 Well, there's, there's something to be said for that. Needless to say, well, so you, did you go to college? Or did you go out of whatever high school type things and then go into the police? Or what?   Chris Miller ** 10:18 Um, yes, I joined the police from high school, I completed my high school graduation, as you call it in America, police academy, where in Brisbane, Oxley and then the Queensland Police Academy, and subsequent to that, I went to university part time while I was a police officer, and graduated and so on and so   Michael Hingson ** 10:41 on. So you eventually did get a college degree.   10:45 True, okay,   Michael Hingson ** 10:48 well, but you were also working, so that must have been pretty satisfying to do,   Chris Miller ** 10:55 but, but it was tricky to especially when you're on shift work trying to going to excuse me, study and and hold on a more than full time job?   Michael Hingson ** 11:09 Yeah, had to be a challenge. It was,   Chris Miller ** 11:13 but it was worth it and, and I often think about my degree and the learnings I did psychology and sociology and then how it I often think a university degree isn't so much the content, it's it's the discipline and the and the analysis and research and all the skills that you Get as part of the the process. It's important.   Michael Hingson ** 11:42 Yeah, I agree. I think that a good part of what you do in college is you learn all about analysis, you learn about research, you learn about some of these things which are not necessarily talked about a lot, but if you you do what you're supposed to do. Well those are, are certainly traits that you learn and things that you you develop in the way of tools that can help you once you graduate,   Chris Miller ** 12:13 absolutely and continue to be valuable and and this was sort of reinforced in the years when I was post graduate at the University of Queensland, and was, was one of the representatives on the arts faculty board, where we spend a lot of time actually thinking about, you know, what is education? What are we trying to achieve here? Not just be a degree factory, but what are we actually trying to share with the students to make them better citizens and contribute in various ways.   Michael Hingson ** 12:50 Yeah, I know that last year, I was inducted as an alumni member of the Honor Society, phi, beta, kappa, and I was also asked to deliver the keynote speech at the induction dinner for all of the the students and me who were inducted into phi, Beta Kappa last June. And one of the things that I talked about was something that I've held dear for a long time, ever since I was in college, a number of my professors in physics said to all of us, one of the things that you really need to do is to pay attention to details. It isn't enough to get the numeric mathematical answer correct. You have to do things like get the units correct. So for example, if you're talking about acceleration, you need to make sure that it comes out meters per second squared. It isn't just getting a number, but you've got to have the units and other things that that you deal with. You have to pay attention to the details. And frankly, that has always been something that has stuck with me. I don't, and I'm sure that it does with other people, but it's always been something that I held dear, and I talked about that because that was one of the most important things that I learned out of college, and it is one of the most important things that helped me survive on September 11, because it is all about paying attention to the details and really learning what you can about whatever you need to learn, and making sure that you you have all the information, and you get all the information that you can   Chris Miller ** 14:34 absolutely and in the emergency space, it's it's learning from what's happened and right, even Though many of the emergencies that we deal with, sadly, people die or get badly injured or significant harm to their lives, lifestyle and economy and so on, I often think that the return for them is that we learn to do better next. Time that we capture the lessons and we take them from just lessons identified to lessons learned, where we make real, significant changes about how we do things. And you've spoken often about 911 and of course, in Australia, we've been more than passingly interested in what the hell happened there. Yeah, in terms of emergency management too, because, as I understand it, you had 20, 479, months of fire fighting in the tunnels. And of course, we've thought a lot about that. In Australia, we have multi story buildings in some of our major cities. What if some unpleasant people decided to bring some of them down? They would be on top of some of our important infrastructure, such as Metro tunnels and so on. Could we manage to do 20, 479, months of fire fighting, and how would that work? Do we have the resources? How could we deploy people to make that possible? So even when it isn't in your own country, you're learning from other people, from agencies, to prepare your country and your situation in a state of readiness. Should something unpleasant   Michael Hingson ** 16:16 happen? I wonder, speaking of tunnels, that's just popped into my head. So I'll ask it. I wonder about, you know, we have this war in the Middle East, the Israeli Hamas war. What have we learned about or from all of the tunnels that Hamas has dug in in Gaza and so on? What? What does all that teach us regarding emergency preparedness and so on, or does it   Chris Miller ** 16:46 presently teaches us a lot about military preparedness. And you know, your your enemy suddenly, suddenly popping up out of the out of the under underground to take you on, as they've been doing with the idea as I understand it,   Michael Hingson ** 17:03 yeah. But also,   Chris Miller ** 17:06 you know, simplistic solutions, like some people said, Well, why don't you just flood the tunnels and that'll deal with them. Except the small problem is, if you did that, you would actually make the land unlivable for many years because of salination. So it just raises the questions that there are no simple solutions to these challenging problems in defense and emergency management. And back to your point about detail, you need to think about all your options very carefully. And one of the things that I often do with senior people is beware of one track thinking. There is no one solution to any number of emergencies. You should be thinking as broadly as possible and bringing bringing in the pluses and minuses of each of those solutions before you make fairly drastic choices that could have long term consequences, you know, like the example of the possible flooding of the tunnel, sounds like a simple idea and has some appeal, but there's lots of downsides to   Michael Hingson ** 18:10 much less, the fact that there might very well be people down there that you don't want to see, perishes,   Chris Miller ** 18:20 yeah, return to their families. I'm sure they'd like that. And there may be other people, I understand that they've been running medical facilities and doing all sorts of clever things in the tunnel. And those people are not combatants. They're actually trying to help you, right?   Michael Hingson ** 18:37 Yeah, so it is one of those things that really points out that no solutions are necessarily easy at all, and we need to think pretty carefully about what we do, because otherwise there could be a lot of serious problems. And you're right   Chris Miller ** 18:55 exactly, and there's a lot of hard choices and often made hastily in emergency management, and this is one of the reasons why I've been a big defender of the recovery elements being involved in emergency management. You need to recovery people in the response activities too, because sometimes some of the choices you make in response might seem wonderful at the time, but are absolutely devastating in the recovery space, right?   Michael Hingson ** 19:25 Do you find that when you're in an emergency situation that you are afraid, or are you not afraid? Or have you just learned to control fear, and I don't mean just in a in a negative way, but have you learned to control sphere so that you use it as a tool, as opposed to it just overwhelming you.   Chris Miller ** 19:49 Yeah, sometimes the fee sort of kicks in afterwards, because often in the actual heat of the moment, you're so focused on on dealing with the problem. Problem that you really don't have time to be scared about it. Just have to deal with it and get on to next problem, because they're usually coming at you in a in a pretty tsunami like why? If it's a major incident, you've got a lot happening very quickly, and decisions need to be made quickly and often with less of the facts and you'd like to have at your fingertips to make some fairly life changing decisions for some people. But I would think what in quite tricky,   Michael Hingson ** 20:33 yeah, but I would think what that means is that you learn to control fear and not let it overwhelm you, but you learn that, yeah, it's there, but you use it to aid you, and you use it to help move you to make the decisions as best you can, as opposed to not being able to make decisions because you're too fearful,   Chris Miller ** 21:00 right? And decision paralysis can be a real issue. I remember undertaking an exercise some years back where a quite senior person called me into his office when it was over, was just tabletop, and he said, I'm not it. And I went. He said, I'm not really a crisis manager. I'm good in a business as usual situation where I have all the facts before me, and usually my staff have had weeks, months to prepare a detailed brief, provide me with options and recommendations I make a sensible decision, so I'm not really good on the fly. This is not me and and that's what we've been exercising. Was a senior team making decisions rather quickly, and he was mature enough person to realize that that wasn't really his skill set,   Michael Hingson ** 21:55 his skill set, but he said,   Chris Miller ** 21:59 he said, but I've got a solution. Oh, good, my head of property. Now, in many of the businesses I've worked with, the head of property, it HR, work, health and safety, security, all sorts of things go wrong in their day. You know, they can, they can come to the office and they think they're going to do, you know, this my to do list, and then all of a sudden, some new problem appears that they must deal with immediately. So they're often really good at dealing with whatever the hell today's crisis is. Now, it may not be enough to activate business continuity plan, but it's what I call elasticity of your business as usual. So you think you're going to be doing X, but you're doing x plus y, because something's happened, right? And you just reach out and deal with it. And those people do that almost on a daily basis, particularly if it's a large business. For instance, I worked with one business that had 155 locations in Australia? Well, chances are something will go wrong in one of those 155 locations in any given day. So the property manager will be really good at dealing, reaching out and dealing with whatever that problem is. So this, this senior colleague said, Look, you should make my property manager the chair of this group, and I will hand over delegations and be available, you know, for advice. But he should leave it because he's very good on the fly. He does that every day. He's very well trained in it by virtue of his business as usual, elasticity, smart move. And   Michael Hingson ** 23:45 it worked out,   Chris Miller ** 23:47 yes, yeah, we exercised subsequently. And it did work because he started off by explaining to his colleagues his position, that the head of property would step up to the plate and take over some more senior responsibilities during a significant emergency.   Michael Hingson ** 24:06 Okay, so how long were you with the police, and what did you do after that?   Chris Miller ** 24:17 With the police at nearly 17 years in Queensland, I had a period of operational work in traffic. I came from family of motorcycle and car racing type people, so yeah, it was a bit amusing that I should find my way there. And it actually worked out while I was studying too, because I had a bit of flexibility in terms of my shift rostery. And then when I started my masters, excuse me, my first masters, I sort of got too educated, so I had to be taken off operational policing and put the commissioner office. Hmm.   Michael Hingson ** 25:01 And what did you do there the commissioner's office?   Chris Miller ** 25:05 Yes. So I was much more involved in strategic planning and corporate planning and a whole lot of other moves which made the transition from policing actually quite easy, because I'd been much more involved in the corporate stuff rather than the operational stuff, and it was a hard transition. I remember when I first came out of operational policing into the commissioner's office. God, this is so dull.   Michael Hingson ** 25:32 Yeah, sitting behind a desk. It's not the same,   Chris Miller ** 25:37 not the same at all. But when I moved from policing into more traditional public service roles. I had the sort of requisite corporate skills because of those couple of years in the commission itself.   Michael Hingson ** 25:51 So when you Well, what caused you to leave the police and where did you go?   Chris Miller ** 25:59 Well, interestingly, when I joined, I was planning to leave. I sort of had three goals. One was get a degree leave at 30 some other thing, I left at 32 and I was head hunted to become the first female Workplace Health and Safety Inspector in Queensland, and at the time, my first and now late husband was very unwell, and I was working enormous hours, and I was offered a job with shorter hours and more money and a great opportunity. So I took it,   Michael Hingson ** 26:36 which gave you a little bit more time with family and him, exactly. So that was, was that in an emergency management related field,   Chris Miller ** 26:48 workplace health and safety, it can be emergencies, yeah? Well, hopefully not, yeah, because in the Workplace Health and Safety space, we would like people to prepare so there aren't emergency right? Well, from time to time, there are and and so I came in, what happened was we had a new act in Queensland, New Work, Health and Safety Act prior to the new Act, the police, fire and other emergency service personnel were statutory excluded from work health and safety provisions under the law in Queensland, the logic being their job was too dangerous. How on earth could you make it safe? And then we had a new government came in that wanted to include police and emergency services somehow or other. And I sort of became, by default, the Work Health and Safety Advisor for the Queensland Police at the time. There was no such position then, but somebody had to do it, and I was in the commissioner's office and showed a bit of interest that you can do that.   Michael Hingson ** 28:01 It's in the training,   Chris Miller ** 28:03 hmm, and, and I remember a particularly pivotal meeting where I had to be face the Deputy Commissioner about whether police would be in or out of that legislation, because they had to advise the government whether it's actually possible to to include police.   Michael Hingson ** 28:28 So what did you advise?   Chris Miller ** 28:31 Well, I gave him the pluses and minuses because whatever we decided it was going to be expensive, yeah, if we said no, politically, it was bad news, because we had a government that wanted us to say yes, and if we said yes, it was going to cost a lot of money make it happen.   Michael Hingson ** 28:49 What finally happened? Yes one, yes one, well, yeah, the government got its way. Do you think that made sense to do that was Yes, right.   Chris Miller ** 29:03 It always was. It always was right, because it was just nonsense that   Michael Hingson ** 29:11 police aren't included   Chris Miller ** 29:14 to exclude, because not every function of policing is naturally hazardous, some of it is quite right going forward and can be made safe, right, and even the more hazardous functions, such as dealing with armed offenders, it can be made safer. There are ways of protecting your police or increasing their bulletproof attire and various other pieces of training and procedures soon even possible.   Michael Hingson ** 29:51 But also part of that is that by training police and bringing them into it, you make them more. Which also has to be a positive in the whole process,   Chris Miller ** 30:05 absolutely, and I did quite a lot of work with our some people used to call them the black pajamas. They were our top of the range people that would deal with the most unpleasant customers. And they would train with our military in Australia, our counter terrorism people are trained with the military. The police and military train together because that expands our force capability. If something really disagreeable happens, so   Michael Hingson ** 30:42 it's got to start somewhere. So when, so all this wasn't necessarily directly related to emergency management, although you did a lot to prepare. When did you actually go into emergency management as a field?   Chris Miller ** 31:01 Oh, well. So I was involved in response when I was talking about rescue, search and rescue, and then increasingly, I became involved in exercising and planning, writing, procedures, training, all that, getting ready stuff, and then a lot more work in terms of debriefing, so observing the crisis centers and seeing if there could be some fine tuning even during the event, but also debriefing. So what did we actually learn? What do we do? Well, what might be do better next time? Well, there's some insights that the people that were most involved might have picked up as a result of this latest incident, whatever that might have been.   Michael Hingson ** 31:58 And so when you so where did you end up, where you actually were formally in the emergency management field?   Chris Miller ** 32:07 Well, emergency management is quite a broad field. Yeah, it's preparedness right through to response and recovery and everything in between. And so I've had involvement in all of that over the years. So from preparing with training and exercising right through to it's happening. You're hanging off the helicopter skids and so on.   Michael Hingson ** 32:34 So did you do this? Working   Chris Miller ** 32:36 it come back from you with a bit of a call. Oh, sorry. When through to response and recovery. You know, how are we going to respond? What are our options? What are our assets through to recovery, which is usually a long tail. So for instance, if it's a flood of fire or zone, it'll take a very long time to recover. You know, 911 you didn't rebuild towers and and rebuild that area quickly. It took years to put things back together again. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 33:11 the only thing about it is One can only hope that was we put things back together, and as we move forward, we also remember the lessons that we should learn from what happened in the past, absolutely, and I'm not sure that that always happens   Chris Miller ** 33:31 true, and that's why I often get a bit annoyed when I hear particularly politicians talk about lessons learned very hastily after The event. You know they say we will learn the lessons from this or that. No, don't you think? Because for those of us involved in the debriefing and lessons management space, we know that that you have observations, insights, lessons identified, but they're not learned, usually, until some considerable period thereafter when you make the necessary changes to training procedures, whatever it might be, so that those those learnings are embedded in the way forward.   Michael Hingson ** 34:18 Yeah, and not everybody learns the lessons who should learn the lessons, and they don't always listen to the people who really do understand. But you can only do what you can do as well. Well,   Chris Miller ** 34:34 we're trying to structure more of that with lessons management so that it's a lot less hit and miss. I mean, when I first came into emergency management, it was much more, much more, a sort of learning on the job, sometimes learning bad habits from people, and then gradually, hopefully and. Setting aside the bad habits and getting into the good habits. Now you can do a masters and PhDs in disaster management, thank goodness, so that we become much more sophisticated in terms of our evidence base and our research and our understanding. And as I said, this crossover so we learned a lot from what happened with 911 that might be applicable here in Australia, should something unpleasant in their larger cities happen too? So we learn from each other. It isn't a static environment, it's very much a fluid environment, and one that's moving forward. I'm happy to report.   Michael Hingson ** 35:40 Well, that's important that it moves forward and that we learn from what has happened now, of course, we have all sorts of things going on over here with air traffic controllers and losing communications and all sorts of other things that once again, causes people to need to learn how to very quickly react and make strong decisions and not panic with what's going on. I heard on the news this morning about somebody who saw two aircraft that were about to collide, and he was able to get them to divert so that they didn't hit each other, but radar hadn't detected it. So, you know, they're just the people are very resilient when they when they learn and understand what they need to do.   Chris Miller ** 36:34 And I've had the honor of working with air traffic controllers and doing some exercises with them. They're actually amazing people for a number of reasons. One is the stress levels of their job is just beyond belief. But two is they actually have to think in 3d so they've got their radar screens, which are 2d and they actually have to think in 3d which is a really rare and amazing skill. It's like a great sculptor. Yeah, in Europe, I've seen some wonderful sculpture, they actually have to think in 3d in terms of the positioning of their aircraft and how to deal with them. It's a it's a great set of skills, so never to be underestimated. And of course, it raises the question of aging infrastructure and an aging workforce too, something that in a lot of countries, yours and mine, it seems that we've been quite neglectful about legacy systems that we have not upgraded, and about the aging workforce that we have not invested enough effort in terms of bringing new people into the system so that, as our our long time warriors want to retire, and they're entitled to that can leave and Knowing that there will be more useful replacements.   Michael Hingson ** 38:04 I flew last week, and actually for one of my flights, sat next to an air traffic controller who was going to a meeting, which was fascinating. And same point was made that a lot of the infrastructure is anywhere from 25 to 50 years old, and it shouldn't be. It's so amazing that I would, I guess I would say our politicians, even though they've been warned so many times, won't really deal with upgrading the equipment. And I think enough is starting to happen. Maybe they will have to do it because too much is failing, but we'll see and to   Chris Miller ** 38:42 worry when people are doing things that are so important hastily. And interestingly, when I was exercising Sydney air traffic controllers, I usually got a glimpse of a new high tech solution that they were in the process of testing, which was going to put more cameras and more capability around the airfield than they'd ever had before, even though they're sitting in an $80 million tower that would be built for them with Australian tax dollars, but trying to get the system even more sophisticated, more responsive, because the flight levels coming in and out of Sydney continue to grow. 90% of Australians air traffic goes in and out of Sydney at some point in the day, yeah. So they're very busy there, and how can we provide systems that will support the capacity to do better for us and continue to maintain our sales flows?   Michael Hingson ** 39:50 So we met kind of through the whole issue of the business continuity Institute conference last year. What's the difference between emergency. Management and business continuity management   Chris Miller ** 40:03 interesting when I came out of emergency management, so things like the Bali bombings, the Indian Ocean tsunami and so on and so on. A deputy in the Department of Social Security where I used to work, said, oh, we need a business continuity manager. And I said, What's that? Yeah, excuse me, Hey, what's that? Well, I quickly learned it's basically a matter of scale. So I used to be in the business in emergencies, of focusing on the country, united, counter terrorism, all the significant parts of the country, blood, fire and so on, to one business at a time. So the basics of business, of emergency management, come across very neatly to business continuity. You're still preparing and responding and recovering, just on a smaller scale,   Michael Hingson ** 41:08 because you're dealing with a particular business at a time true, whereas emergency management is really dealing with it across the board.   Chris Miller ** 41:19 We can be the whole country, yeah, depending on what it is that you do in the emergency management space or a significant part of the country,   Michael Hingson ** 41:29 when did you kind of transition from emergency management and emergency preparedness on a on a larger scale to the whole arena of business continuity?   Chris Miller ** 41:40 Well, I still keep a foot in both camps. Actually, I keep, I keep boomeranging between them. It depends on what my clients want. Since I'm a consultant now, I move between both spaces.   Michael Hingson ** 41:57 When did you decide to be a consultant as opposed to working for our particular organization   Chris Miller ** 42:04 or the I was a bit burnt out, so I was happy to take a voluntary redundancy from the government and in my consultancy practice   Michael Hingson ** 42:12 from there, when did that start?   Chris Miller ** 42:16 October of 10.   Michael Hingson ** 42:18 October of 2010, yep. Okay, so you've been doing it for almost 15 years, 14 and a half years. Do you like consulting?   Chris Miller ** 42:29 Yeah, I do, because I get to work program people who actually want to have me on board. Sometimes when you work as a public servant in these faces. Yeah, you're not seen as an asset. You're a bit of an annoyance. When people are paying you as a consultant, they actually want you to be there,   Michael Hingson ** 42:55 yeah? Which? Which counts for something, because then you know that you're, you're going to be more valued, or at least that's the hope that you'll be more valued, because they really wanted to bring you in. They recognize what you what you brought to the table as it were.   Chris Miller ** 43:12 Yes, um, no, that's not to say that they always take your recommendations. Yeah. And I would learn to just, you know, provide my report and see what happens.   Michael Hingson ** 43:24 So was it an easy transition to go into the whole arena of business continuity, and then, better yet, was it an easy I gather it was probably an easy transition to go off and become a consultant rather than working as you had been before?   Chris Miller ** 43:39 Well, the hours are shorter and the pain is better.   Michael Hingson ** 43:41 There you are. That helps.   Chris Miller ** 43:48 Tell me if you would a lot more flexibility and control over my life that I didn't have when I was a full time public servant.   Michael Hingson ** 43:55 Yeah, yeah. And that that, of course, counts for a lot, and you get to exercise more of your entrepreneurial spirit, yes, but   Chris Miller ** 44:09 I think one of the things is I've often seen myself as very expensive public asset. The Australian taxpayer has missed a lot of time and effort in my training over very many years. Now they're starting to see some of the return on that investment   Michael Hingson ** 44:25 Well, and that's part of it. And the reality is, you've learned a lot that you're able to put to you, so you bring a lot of expertise to what you do, which also helps explain why you feel that it's important to earn a decent salary and or a decent consulting fee. And if you don't and people want to just talk you down and not pay you very much, that has its own set of problems, because then you wonder how much they really value what you what you bring.   Chris Miller ** 44:55 Yes. And so now i. Through the World Bank and my international consultancy work, I'm sharing some of those experiences internationally as well.   Michael Hingson ** 45:11 So you mentioned the World Bank, who are some of your clients, the people that you've worked with, the   Chris Miller ** 45:18 World Bank doesn't like you talking too much about what you do?   Michael Hingson ** 45:20 Yeah, that's, I was wondering more, what are some of the organizations you worked with, as opposed to giving away secrets of what you   Chris Miller ** 45:31 do? Well, for the wellbeing club, basically worked in the health sector in Africa and in APAC, okay, and that's involved working with Ministries of Health, you know, trying to get them in a better state of preparing this, get their plans and better shape, get them exercising those plans and all that kind of important stuff, stuff that we kind of take for granted in Our countries, in yours well, with FEMA, although, what's left of FEMA now? Yeah, but also in my own country, you know, we're planning and exercising and lessons management and all these things are just considered, you know, normal operations when you're talking to low and middle income countries. And no, that isn't normal operations. It's something that is still learning, and you have the honor to work with them and bring them into that sort of global fold about how these things are done.   Michael Hingson ** 46:35 Well, you worked in some pretty far away and and relatively poor countries and so on. I assume that was a little bit different than working in what some people might call the more developed countries. You probably had to do more educating and more awareness raising, also,   Chris Miller ** 46:55 yes and no. The African country I worked in a lot of these people had studied at Harvard and some of your better universities. But what I noticed was, as brilliant as those people were, and as well trained and educated, there weren't enough of them. And that was one of the real problems, is, is trying to expand the workforce with the necessary skills in emergency management or whatever else you might be trying to do pandemic preparedness or something. Don't have enough people on the ground in those countries that have the necessary skills and experience.   Michael Hingson ** 47:44 Were you able to help change that?   Chris Miller ** 47:48 Yeah, we set up some training programs, and hopefully some of those continue beyond our time with them.   Michael Hingson ** 47:58 So again, it is some awareness raising and getting people to buy into the concepts, which some will and some won't. I remember while at the Business Continuity Institute, one of the people said the thing about the people who attend the conference is they're the what if people, and they're always tasked with, well, what if this happens? What if that happens? But nobody listens to them until there's really an emergency, and then, of course, they're in high demand. Which, which I can understand.   Chris Miller ** 48:33 That's why you want exercises, because it raises awareness so that, so that the what if, the business continuity people are thinking that emergency managers are a bit more front of mind for some of the senior people, it's less of a surprise when something unpleasant happens. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 48:56 Well, how is the whole concept and the whole structure or theory of emergency management, changed. You've been involved in this a long time. So how has it evolved and changed over the years?   Chris Miller ** 49:10 Much more education, formal education, not learning on the job, actually going to university and learning properly, but much more evidence based, much more structured lessons management, much more technology. There's so many changes, at least to be very long.   Michael Hingson ** 49:31 Does AI come into play in emergency management? Yet,   Chris Miller ** 49:37 I think it's coming in. More and more we're using it for prediction of fire behavior and all sorts of things now,   Michael Hingson ** 49:47 yeah, and that, and that makes sense, that we're, we're starting to see where the whole technology and the whole ability to monitor so many things. Can tell us there's a fire starting or something is happening a lot more quickly than we used to be able to do it. I'm not sure that we're there yet with earthquakes, but even with earthquakes, we're getting warnings a little bit more quickly than we used to. We had an earthquake here in Southern California a couple of weeks ago, and I forget exactly, but it was a number of seconds that people had some decent warnings. So by the time it was analyzed and determined that there was going to be an earthquake, there was still time to issue a warning that alerted people, because she still had to react pretty quickly if you wanted to take advantage of it. But I think that we're only going to see more and more technological changes that will help the process be better,   Chris Miller ** 50:55 absolutely. And one of the big problems that we're having is a lot of our previous sort of fire mapping, fire behavior, flood mapping is out of date very quickly, because of development and climate change and all sorts of factors, previous behaviors are not actually a very good model, but an AI permits us to do things faster.   Michael Hingson ** 51:24 Yeah, we're going to have to just continue, certainly to encourage it. And again, it's one of those areas where the reality is all of the skills that we and tools that we can bring to the to the process are absolutely appropriate to do, because otherwise we just either take a step backward or we don't progress at all   Chris Miller ** 51:49 well. And to give you another example, um, Life Savers, New South Wales lifesavers. Here, I run the largest grain fleet in the country now for a long time, life saving used to be sort of volunteers, and in pretty old tech, not anymore, oh boy. And they're even looking at things like deploying life saving devices off their drones as they get bigger and smarter and heavier lifting to be able to drop things to people in distress. We're using it for shark netting, whereas we used to take a boat out and check the shark nets, now we can send the drones out, and then if you need to send the boat out, you're not wasting a lot of money chugging up and down in your boat. So there's all sorts of savings and adjustments in this space, in technology with AI and all sorts of other fancy devices like drones,   Michael Hingson ** 52:54 how about emergency management and so on, in terms of dealing with different kinds of people, like people with disabilities, people who are blind or deaf or hard of hearing, maybe heavy people, people who are in the autism spectrum and so on has emerged. Have emergency managers gotten better at dealing with different kinds of disabilities? How much real awareness raising and understanding has gone into all of that   Chris Miller ** 53:26 well. Towards the end of last year, there was a big package of work done by EMA Emergency Management Australia, being conducted in conjunction with AD the Australian Institute of disaster resiliency, and that's in the disability space and the whole lot of that's rolling out in workshops all over the country to try and do even better. Yes, it's still a weakness, I would have to agree, and we still need to do a whole lot better in that whole space of some of those vulnerable groups that you mentioned, and hopefully some of this important initiative that's sponsored by the government and will help raise awareness and improve response activities in the future.   Michael Hingson ** 54:15 I would also point out, and it's, of course, all about training to a degree, because, you know, people say, well, blind people can't do this, for example, or they can't do that. And the reality is, blind people can, if they're trained, if they gain self confidence, if they're given and put it in an environment where they're able to be given confidence to do things. The reality is, blindness isn't the challenge that most sighted people would believe it to be, but at the same time, I think that one of the biggest things, and I saw it on September 11, one of the biggest things, is information, or lack of information. I asked several times what was going on, and no one who clearly had to know. Who would say what was occurring. And I understand some of that because they they didn't know whether I would just panic because they said airplanes had deliberately been crashed into the towers or not. But also, I know that there was also a part of it, which was, when you're blind, you can't deal with any of that. We're not going to tell you, we don't have time to tell you. Information, to me, is the most important thing that you can provide, but I but I do appreciate there. There are two sides to it, but it is also important to recognize that, with a lot of people who happen to have different kinds of disabilities, providing information may very well be an enhancement to their circumstances, because they can make decisions and do things that they might not otherwise have been able to do. Well,   Chris Miller ** 55:50 it was certainly the case for you, because you had information and you had preparedness before 911 right? You were able to respond in more effective ways because you knew what was what. And we certainly saw that in covid, for instance, even things like translating information into different languages. In Australia, we have people from, I think the last census, 170 countries, they don't all speak English as their first language. And having worked with Aboriginal people for eight years, quite specifically, one of my dear friends, English was her sixth language.   Michael Hingson ** 56:32 But at the same time,   Chris Miller ** 56:33 go ahead, yeah, and yet we keep putting information out in all that well, no, we need to do much better in the language phase, in the preparedness space of people with all sorts of challenges. We need to reach out to those people so that as you were prepared for 911 and you knew where the fire escapes were, and this and that really paid benefits on the day that we've done that, that we've taken reasonable steps to prepare everyone in the community, not just the English speakers or the this or that, right? All people get the chance to understand their situation and prepare apparently,   Michael Hingson ** 57:22 I know that if I had had more information about what had occurred, I may very well have decided to travel a different way to leave or after leaving the tower and the building. I might have gone a different way, rather than essentially walking very much toward tower two and being very close to it when it collapsed. But I didn't have that information because they wouldn't provide that. So not helpful. Yeah, so things, things do happen. So I'm sure that along the way you've had funny experiences in terms of dealing with emergencies and emergency management. What's the funniest kind of thing that you ever ran into? I'll   Chris Miller ** 58:08 come back to the old packers, but just quickly, that whole crisis communication space is also a big development in emergency management. Yeah, a long time we kind of kept the information to ourselves, but we realize that knowledge is power. We need to get it out there to people. So we do a lot more with alerts on the phones and all sorts of clever things now, right? Funny things? Well, there's so many of those, which one probably most recently is the dreaded alpacas where I live now, as you see, well, as some people who might see the video of this, I live by the beach, which is pretty common for a lot of Australians. Anyway, we have had fires up in in a nice valley called kangaroo Valley. Then a lot of people that live there are sort of small farmlets. There are some dairy farms and people that are more scale farmers, but other people just have a small plot, excuse me, maybe a couple of horses or something or other. And and then when we had fires up there a few years back, we set up emergency evacuation centers for them, and we set them up for dogs and cats and small animals, and we had facility for horses at the nearby race grounds and so on. But we weren't expecting our hackers and alpacas are actually quite big, and they spit and do other things quite under manage. So I remember we rang up the race course manager and we said, we've got alpacas. What you got? What I. I said, Well, they're sort of about the size of a horse. He said, Yes, yes, but we know what to do with horses. We know what the hell to do without Yes. Anyway, eventually we moved the alpacas to horse stables and kept them away from the horses because we weren't sure how to do and interact. Yeah. And the owner of these alpacas was so attached to her animals that she she insisted on sleeping in her Carney her alpacas. And some people are very attached to their animals, even if they're a little on the large side. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:37 Well, I know during the fires that we had here in Southern California back in January, there were a number of people who had horses and were very concerned about evacuating them, and, of course, other animals as well. But the horses especially were were dealt with, and they had emergency well, they had places to take them if they could get the horses out. I don't know whether we lost horses or how many we lost during all the big fires, but yeah,   Chris Miller ** 1:01:10 I'm serious far as new Canberra, which is my city of residence for many years, and what happened? I decision. What happened was, quite often, the men were all fighting the fires, and the women were left with with smoke affected horses. Oh, and they were trying to get them onto the horse flight. Now, as we quickly discovered, horses are pretty smart, and they're not keen on being near fires. They don't want to be there, right? So they become quite a challenge to me. And to put a horse float onto your vehicle is no easy thing when you've never done it before and you're trying to do it in a crisis. So when all that was over, one of the lessons that we did learn was we arranged to have a sort of open day at the near, nearby race course. We've actually taught people to put the trailer on the back of the vehicle, to deal with a fractious horse, to sort of cover its face or protect it from the smoke and do all sorts of helpful things. So sometimes, when we get it wrong, we do learn and make some important improvements like it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:32 What's the kind of most important advice you would give to somebody who's new in emergency management or interested in going into the field   Chris Miller ** 1:02:42 and sign up for a good course, do a bachelor or master's degree in emergency management, because not only will you learn from your instructors, you'll learn from your colleagues, and this is a networking business,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:56 yeah. Well, I want to Oh, have you? I haven't asked you. Have you written any books? No, you haven't okay? Because if you had, I'd ask you to send me book covers so that we could put them in the show notes. Well, there's something for you to look at in the near future. You could learn to be an author and add that to your skill repertoire. I want to thank you for being Yeah. Well, there is always that right, too many emergencies to manage. Well, Chris, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening and being with us today. I hope that this has been helpful and interesting and educational. I found it so I'd love to hear your thoughts, and I'm sure Chris would as well. Chris, how can people maybe reach out to you if they'd like to do. So,   Chris Miller ** 1:03:42 yeah, sure. LinkedIn is a good way to find me, and I've given you all those details. So   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:49 go ahead and say your LinkedIn name anyway.   Chris Miller ** 1:03:53 Good question. Yeah, it's before cross. This is my business   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:58 name before being the number four crisis. That's it.   Chris Miller ** 1:04:03 My LinkedIn name is,   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:08 says before   Chris Miller ** 1:04:09 process, yeah, and your email is going to be full process on LinkedIn.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:16 Chris Miller at before before crisis, and email is number four process. And in email, it's before, no, it's, it's Chris Miller, before crisis, again, isn't   Chris Miller ** 1:04:30 it? It's Chris at default process, Chris at before crisis.com.au,   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:35 yeah, okay, memorizing the   Chris Miller ** 1:04:41 reason why it's led to be number four crisis right is I like to see my clients before the crisis, right, and I know they'll be more motivated after the crisis.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:53 Well, I hope that you'll reach out to Chris and find her on LinkedIn, and all the information is in the show notes. She is right. But. Always like to get people to say it, if they can. I'd love to hear from you. Feel free to email me at Michael H I M, I C H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S i b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, w, w, w, dot Michael hingson, that's m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s o n.com/podcast, podcast singular that is, wherever you're listening or watching, please give us a five star rating. We really value your ratings and your reviews and input. We appreciate it, and for all of you and Chris you as well, if you know of anyone who ought to be a guest, or you think should be a guest on unstoppable mindset, we're always looking for more people to talk with and have conversations with, so please introduce us. We're always excited to get that kind of thing from you as well. So once again, Chris, I just want to thank you for being here. This has been fun today.   Chris Miller ** 1:05:54 Thank you, Michael. It was fun to meet   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:02 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Kent Lewis grew up in the Seattle area. In college he studied business and marketing. After college he went to work for a PR agency but left to go into the digital marketing industry in 1996. Kent has formed several marketing agencies during his career. He is quite up front about challenges he faced along the way as well as what he learned from each issue he faced.   Kent's philosophy about community is quite interesting and well worth adopting. He believes very much in giving back to his community. Today his day job is serving as “Executive Director of NextNW, a non-profit trade association that unifies the Pacific Northwest advertising & marketing professionals interested in professional development, sharing best practices, and collaborative problem-solving”.   Kent gives us many relevant and timely business insights. I hope you agree that this conversation gives us some good business lessons we all can use.     About the Guest:   Kent Lewis, Executive Director, NextNW Lewis is currently Executive Director of NextNW, a non-profit trade association that unifies the Pacific Northwest advertising & marketing professionals interested in professional development, sharing best practices, and collaborative problem-solving. He is also Founder of pdxMindShare, Portland's premier career community, with over 12,000 LinkedIn Group members. With a background in integrated marketing, he left a public relations agency in 1996 to start his career in digital marketing. Since then, he's helped grow businesses by connecting his clients with their constituents online. In 2000, Lewis founded Anvil Media, Inc., a measurable marketing agency specializing in search engine and social media marketing. Under his leadership, Anvil has received recognition from Portland Business Journal and Inc. Magazine as a Fastest Growing and Most Philanthropic Company.  After selling his agency in March 2022, he became a CMO for the acquiring firm. Beyond co-founding SEMpdx, Lewis co-founded two agencies, emailROI (now Thesis) and Formic Media. As a long-time entrepreneur, he's advised or invested in a host of companies, including PacificWRO, Maury's Hive Tea and ToneTip. Lewis speaks regularly at industry events and has been published in books and publications including Business2Community, Portland Business Journal, and SmartBrief. For twenty years, he was an adjunct professor at Portland State University, and has been a volunteer instructor for SCORE Portland since 2015. Lewis tours nationwide, averaging 30 speaking engagements annually, including a regular presenter role with the Digital Summit conference series. Active in his community, Lewis has been involved in non-profit charity and professional trade organizations including early literacy program SMART Reading and The Entrepreneurs' Organization (EO).  Industry recognition and awards include Portland Business Journal's Top 40 Under 40 Award, American Marketing Association Oregon Chapter Marketer of the Year, and Top 100 Digital Marketing Influencers by BuzzSumo.   Ways to connect with Kent:   Links https://kentjlewis.com/   And LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kentlewis/     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today. We get to chat with an award winning entrepreneur, and he just told me a really interesting factoid. We'll have to, we'll have to talk about it, just because it is about one of the most fascinating things I've heard in quite a while, and a very positive thing. But I'm not going to give it away, because I'm going away, because I'm going to let him talk about it, or at least start the discussion. I'd like you all to meet Kent Lewis. Kent has been an entrepreneur for a while. He helps other entrepreneurs. He works in the non profit arena and does a variety of different kinds of things. And rather than me telling you all about it, you could read the bio, but more important, meet Kent Lewis and Kent, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Kent Lewis ** 02:05 It's, it's a pleasure to be on the show. Thank you for having me, sir.   Michael Hingson ** 02:10 Now where are you located? I'm based in Portland, Oregon, yeah. So you're, you are up up the coast, since I'm in Southern California. So yes, you know, one of these days I'll be up that way again. Well, Alaska Airlines will fly me up there.   Kent Lewis ** 02:27 Yeah, totally right. Yeah, good   Michael Hingson ** 02:29 to have you, unless you come this way first. But anyway, well, I'm really want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. And why don't we start? I love to do this. Tell me a little bit about kind of the early Kent growing up and all that stuff.   Kent Lewis ** 02:44 Yeah, so I grew up in Seattle, Washington. I think something that's influenced me is that my dad was is, or is, a retired architect. And so there was always this design esthetic, and he was an art collector enthusiast, I should say. And so I was always surrounded with art and mid century, you know, furniture and there's just style was a it was a thing. And then my mom was always in when she was a social worker and went into running nonprofits. And so I grew up around that as well of just giving back. So if you ever heard that common term, you know, learn, earn, return. Start your life you're learning, then you're maximizing your earnings during your career, and then when you in and around later in life, you start giving back, right, returning, right. And I learned from my mom that you never stop you never stop learning. You never stop returning. And my my mantra as an entrepreneur is never stop earning right? So, so I've always been giving back and donating my time, and I've always appreciated sort of good design and well thought out things. And I think that's influenced my career in marketing and as an entrepreneur, business owner, and now more of an advisor, Coach type,   Michael Hingson ** 03:59 well, so growing up in Seattle, did you visit pikes market very often?   Kent Lewis ** 04:04 My dad used to work right, right, like, two blocks away. So I would go there all the time. In fact, I remember when there was just one Starbucks when I was a kid, yeah, at Pike Place Market, and they used to sell large chunks of delicious, bitter sweet chocolate, I know, you know, in the behind the counter, and it was a very hi and you could smell the teas and all that. It was a very different experience, very cool place. And so, yeah, love   Michael Hingson ** 04:33 the pipe waste market. I understand that they don't throw the fish anymore. No, they do. They do. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Maybe it was just during the pandemic that they decided not to do that, but   Kent Lewis ** 04:44 think you're right about that. But they definitely, they, they're still, it's still a major attraction. It's too big of a thing to stop.   Michael Hingson ** 04:51 Wow, that's what I was thinking. And that's just way too big of a thing to to stop. My probably not the greatest fish fish catcher, I've been there, but I. I never caught a fish.   Kent Lewis ** 05:02 Yeah, that's only got, like, one or two in my life. And I don't, I don't do it much, but   Michael Hingson ** 05:08 Well, well, that's the place to go anyway. So where did you go to college?   Kent Lewis ** 05:13 I went to Western Washington University in Bellingham, uh, just 1020 minutes from the Canadian border, because, in part, when I was in school, it was a 19 year old drinking age in Canada, so I was 20 minutes away from my earlier drinking age. Turns out, I grew up going to Vancouver, BC quite often for the soccer exchange program when I was a real young youngster. So I fell in love with Vancouver, and as I've had been fortunate enough to travel the world a bit, I realized that it was one of my favorite cities, and it still is. It is such a global, amazing egalitarian, like, no matter your color, race, creed, you could be a millionaire or you could be a bus driver. There was no not the same class, classism you see in other US cities or around the rest of the world. It's truly an amazing and it's also, of course, beautiful   Michael Hingson ** 06:04 there. I found that true throughout Canada, and I've enjoyed every Canadian city I've ever been to. One of my favorites is really going to Toronto. I was always impressed as to how clean it really was.   Kent Lewis ** 06:17 You know, that's true. I've been there a couple times in conferences, and I found it to be clean and impressive, you know, and then, but my, one of my favorite, other cities I only spent overnight, there was Montreal. What a beautiful, beautiful place, absolutely stunning. I   Michael Hingson ** 06:35 spent two days in Montreal once when I was selling some products and turn the TV on at 1131 morning that I was there and watched the Flintstones in French. That was unique. That was unique. Cool. How cool is that? Yeah, it's awesome. That was kind of fun. But, you know, so you, you went to college. What did you major in?   Kent Lewis ** 06:58 I majored in business with a marketing concentration, which is great because I ended up doing marketing for a career, and for 22 years ran my own agency, or my own business, basically.   Michael Hingson ** 07:10 So what did you do when you got out of college?   Kent Lewis ** 07:14 I went immediately into the world of public relations agency life. I always wanted to be a found out after college that I, what I really wanted to be was a copywriter, you know, writing ads. I just coolest thing as a kid. I just didn't know that. It's, I didn't realize what it, what it you have to go to Ad School. You can't, you can't graduate regular college and become a copier. At least you weren't able to when I was, you know, back in the mid 90s. So I started in PR because it sounded hard to pitch the media and try and get them to say what you want them to say about your brand, your client and your brand. And that did me well, because when I got in from went from PR in 94 to digital marketing, SEO, search engine optimization 96 my PR background was extremely helpful. You know, in in that, in that whole world. So because doing PR builds Domain Authority, which builds your rankings in Google, and the rest is history. So, so it was very helpful. It gave me a bit of an edge. And then my business background meant I was better equipped to to go from doing the work to managing people, they're doing the work, to doing my own thing, you know, and running a instant running team, I was running a business. So that was super cool. You   Michael Hingson ** 08:38 know, it's interesting. I've especially because of the World Trade Center, but not only, but before it as well, I learned a lot about dealing with the press. And I've, I've watched a lot of press interviews today, and it's, it's amazing how often and then people have said that this is the way you should do it. No matter what the press person asks you, you answer with the with the answer you really want to give, whether you answer their questions or not. And I think that's an interesting approach, and I suppose it can be positive, but especially for for politicians who don't want to answer the tough questions. But I I know that for me, I've always tried to structure my answers in such a way that it gets them to take the question that they originally asked that I might sort of answer and reframe it so that I will answer a lot of times that, for example, talking about blindness and blind people, there are just so many misconceptions about it and and all too often, like first time I was on Larry King lives, Larry was asking questions about guide dogs. And he said, Now, where did you get your guide dog? And I said, from San Rafael, California. He said, well, but the but the main. School is a new is in Michigan, right? And I said, No, it's a different organization. And what we learned after doing that interview was that the way to deal with Larry was to program him and send him questions in advance with answers. Then he did a lot better, because the reality is, he didn't really know necessarily the answers in the first place. It's just amazing how you know how a lot of times it's just shallower. The Press tends to over dramatize. But I appreciate what you're saying about marketing and PR, I've done so much of that over my lifetime, and for so many reasons, in so many ways, I know exactly what you're talking about.   Kent Lewis ** 10:47 Yeah, yeah. That's, yeah, it's, it's a fascinating world that I've, that I've, you know, been live, living and working in. And I, yeah, I'm impressed, yeah, Larry King Live. That's pretty cool. And, you know, hopefully you've helped people just side note, you know, get a clear understanding of what it is, what it is both like to be blind and then how you navigate this world successfully, as if you're, you know, fully sighted. You know,   Michael Hingson ** 11:18 well, one of the things that I actually learned over the last couple of years is something that I've actually written an article and had it published about, and that is that we've got to change our view of disabilities in general. People always say, well, disability is a lack of ability. And I say, and I always say, No, it's not. And they say, Well, yes, it is. It begins with dis. And I said, then, how do you equate that with disciple, discern and discrete? For example, you know they begin with D is the reality is, disability is not a lack of ability. You think it is. But I've added to that now when I point out that, in reality, every person on the planet has a disability, but for most people, their disability is covered up. Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb, or at least we give him credit for it back in 1878 so for the last 147 years, all we've done is spent so much time improving on the technology that provides light on demand, which just covers up your disability, but it's still there. And I realized that one day I was at a hotel in Los Angeles at three in the afternoon when we had a power failure, and everybody started to scream, even down in the lobby, when they had all these nice big windows that were letting in all sorts of light, but it wasn't giving them the light that they wanted and the amount that they wanted, and people panicked. So I realized then, oh, well, now the reality is they're light dependent, which is as much a disability as my light independence is. It's just that it manifests itself differently, and there are a whole lot more light dependent people than light independent people. But we've got to really change our definition and how we view it. So   Kent Lewis ** 12:58 that's really insightful. It's good to think about.   Michael Hingson ** 13:01 Yeah, it's kind of fun. But, you know, so, so where did you, where did you go off and go to work in the in the marketing world? So you did? You didn't go to Copyright School? Or did you? No, no,   Kent Lewis ** 13:13 I just know. I once I talked to the creative director at this agency in Seattle where I did my first internship. He's like, Yeah, you'd have to go back to art school. And I was like, what school I just finished? So, you know, it didn't really matter. And we So, with that said, we, you know, I moved into PR, and then I moved to down to Portland from Seattle, because I could actually get a paying job because the internship I did three months full time, virtually, basically no pay, I found a low paying job instead in Portland. So I moved I only knew one person here in Portland, my cousin. She's still here. We both have families now, and I know a lot more people, but I basically have, since moving here to do my second agency job. I've been, I've been a part of 10 agencies in my career. I've been, I founded two, co founded two, fired from three and exited the four that I created, or co, co founded, basically. And so right now I have a consultancy. I could say that's my 11th agency, but I don't even really count it as an agency. I'm just a fractional CMO, you know, marketing advisor at this point, just a few hours a month, because my my day job as of January, is running a nonprofit called next northwest.org which is a it's a trade organization for marketing and advertising and creative community, the creative services world. And it has 119 year history in Portland. And now it's, it's now expanded to five states and into Canada. And so I've got this I'm working. I manage a board of, you know, decent sized board, and a decent sized advisory. Committee that I created, and just the last couple months, and we do learning events for the creative community and networking events and celebrations, like, you know, awards, award shows to celebrate the work. So that's kind of my day job. And then I also speak and write a lot you and I share a passion for for education and learning and sharing knowledge. And so I've been, I've probably averaged 25 speaking engagements a year for the last 20 years, and last year was 30. For instance, I fly yours, mentioned your your travel. I'm flying to Tampa on Sunday to present on Monday, on a panel about AI in the senior care space, for instance. And then I come back and I, I, you know, got it. I got one or two more. But I, you know, I typically do a dozen fly flying gigs, and then I do a lot of webinars and local gigs as well.   Michael Hingson ** 15:55 So what are you what are you going to say? What are you going to say about AI in the senior care space?   Kent Lewis ** 16:01 That's a great question. So what my focus as a marketer is, here's how you can use AI to streamline and automate and maintain or improve quality. So it's not meant to it's not a secret hack, cheat code to lay people off. It's a It's get more out of your current resources, basically, and do more with less, and do it more effectively. That's kind of, that's, you know, that's my, what I'll be talking about is the how you know how to use it for research, ideation, content creation, content editing, reporting, synthesizing information, customer service, that kind of thing. So I only have, you know, it's a panel event, so I'm only doing like a 10 to 15 minutes part, and then there are other presenters doing their part, and then we have a little Q and A, usually, I'm a sole presenter on whatever topic, usually digital marketing or employee engagement, which is what I got passionate about. Once I sold my agency. After 22 years, I became an employee at that the agency that acquired my company, and I was immediately underwhelmed and disappointed in what it was like to be an employee, and wanted to fix it. So that's what I had been focusing on when I given a choice. I want to evangelize. You know, what I learned from my experience, and I've done a good amount of research, and, you know, two weeks ago, I presented in Portland on the topic to entrepreneurs. Then the next day, I flew to Denver and did the same presentation to a group of agency owners. And then the next day, I did a webinar for similar group of entrepreneurs, you know, so three versions, three days in a row, a 3060, and 90 minute version. So,   Michael Hingson ** 17:42 pretty fun. Yeah. So how many books have you written?   Kent Lewis ** 17:47 Ah, I knew you'd say that so or ask that. I have not written any books, but I have, darn but I've written, you know, probably 200 articles. I could easily AI them into some sort of book, if I wanted to. You know, I went from writing 80% to 90% of my art content was on digital marketing for the first 20 years. And then the last 10 years, I focused almost exclusively on writing about entrepreneurship and and business ownership, leadership and employee intention, retention, engagement. And, you know, so I mostly syndicate my articles, like business journals, occasionally in Ink Magazine, etc. So if I were to write a book, it would be about the business side of things, instead of the second, I would write something about digital marketing. Not only am I no longer an expert, and consider myself an expert relative to others, those books are outdated the second they're printed, right? So, so it doesn't make sense to really write a book on digital marketing, and everything's already been said, etc. So, so if I wrote a book, it would be probably more on the employee engagement side versus anything. But I will say that I don't know if you know who Seth Godin is. He's the number one marketing blogger in the world. He's written many best sellers, Purple Cow, permission, marketing, etc. He's remarkable guy. And I had was fortunate to talk with him and then meet with him over lunch in New York City 15 years ago. And he said, after our two hour lunch, he charges $75,000 for speaking engagement. So it gives you a sense of who he is. He has for for 20 years. And so he said, Kent, you've got a book in you. I was like, I wish you hadn't said that, because now I don't want to, I don't want to disappoint him, right? So there you go.   Michael Hingson ** 19:31 Well, if you write one at some point, you have to send us a picture of the cover and we'll stick it in the show notes whenever. Yeah, that sounds great, but yeah, I you know, I never thought of writing a book, but in 2002 we went to the AKC Eukanuba canine championship dog show in Orlando. It was in December, and among other people I met there. Here I met George Berger, who was at that time, the publisher of the American Kennel Club Gazette, and he said, You ought to write a book. And I went, why? Well, because you you have a great story to tell. You should really write a book. Well, it took eight years and a lot of time sitting in front of Microsoft Word to get notes down, but eventually I met someone named Susie Flory who called because she was writing a book called Dog tails. And it was a story of what she wanted to write stories of, actually, 17 different dogs who had done some pretty interesting and miraculous things. And she wanted to write a story about my guide dog at the World Trade Center, Roselle. And she said, Tell me your story, if you would. And I did. And when we were done, there was this pause, and then she said, You need to write a book. And since I've written books, I'll help you. And a year later, underdog was published, and it became a number one New York Times bestseller. So that was pretty cool.   Kent Lewis ** 21:01 That's fantastic. Congratulations. Very impressive.   Michael Hingson ** 21:04 And then last year, well, in 2013 we published a children's book called running with Roselle, but more adults by a thing kids, because it's not a picture book, but it tells the story of me growing up and Roselle growing up, and how we met, and all that. So it isn't really as much a World Trade Center book. But then last year, we wrote, live like a guide dog. And the intent of live like a guide dog is to say to people, look fear is all around us, and so many people just allow themselves to be paralyzed, or, as I say, blinded by fear, so they can't make decisions. They don't learn how to control it. But if you learn how to control fear, you can use fear as a very powerful tool to help you stay focused, and you'll make better decisions. So we use lessons I learned from my guide dogs on my wife's service dog to write, live like a guide dog. And so it is out there, and it's it's a lot of fun, too. So you know, it isn't the easiest thing to write a book, but I would think you have a book in you, and you should, well, I   Kent Lewis ** 22:03 appreciate that vote of confidence. And hey, I mean, you did it, and you had an amazing story, and you've done it multiple times. Actually, it's great inspiration for me.   Michael Hingson ** 22:16 Well, I'm looking forward to reading it when it comes out. You'll have to let   22:20 us know. Yeah, will do so   Michael Hingson ** 22:23 you at some point, switched from being an employee to being an entrepreneur. How did that all happen? Why? Why did you do it? Or what really brought that about?   Kent Lewis ** 22:38 Well, I kept getting fired.   Michael Hingson ** 22:40 So why'd that happen?   Kent Lewis ** 22:42 Yeah, so that's the fun part. So I I've never been fired for cause like a legit clause. I'm a high powered, high performer, and so I actually, that's why. So the first time I was fired was by the guy that invited me to co found an agency. His name was Ryan Wilson. He was my he was my boss. And then he was fired by our larger agency. He ran a team that I worked on. I worked for him. I was inspired by him. I I was mentored by him. I thought the world of him. So when he came to me three months after he got fired, it was about, it's always about a girl. So he he basically, he got divorced. And so this other woman, they met at the office, and they were soul mates, and they he had to clean up his life. And he did, and he said, I've got an agency die. I've got two clients ready to sign. I need key employees, and you're one, one of them, then I would hope you would join me. I said, No, the first time he got his act together. I said, yes, the second time, and that. So I we built an agency together with, you know, we start with six people. I brought in two other people and another gal that ran the PR side. I was running the digital side. She brought in somebody said we had six of us on day one, and a year later, we didn't have a formal share shareholder agreement for our percentage of the company that went from being worth zero to being worth a few million dollars, and we felt that we should have something in writing, and before he could, we could get something formally in writing. My, my other partner, she, I didn't really want to do the business with her, but I didn't really have a choice. I want to do the business with him. She said, I'm asking for more equity. I said, Okay, I feel like that's fair. I think we've earned it, but, and I'll, I'll be there with you, but I wouldn't have done this if she hadn't said, I'm going in. Are you with me? So when I we asked, she asked me to make the ask. I wasn't necessarily prepared or thinking about it, and it really offended him. He was really mad, and he was playing to fire her, and by me teaming up with her, he felt, you know, slight. And he fired us both, and the next week, I started anvil, my agency, Anvil Media, that I ran for 22 years, I did a couple other starts, one with a college friend and a guy I had met at that that at one of the first, one of the earlier agency agencies I'd worked at. He and we, he and I and my college buddy started an email marketing agency in 02 and then I decided, well, this isn't for me, but I now learn it's not that scary to hire employees. So then I started hiring employees at anvil and late 03 and so I ran anvil with employees for, you know, 20 years. Two of those first two years were just me and some contractors and and then, oh, wait, I started a second agency because I needed a more affordable solution for my partners in small business called Formic media. Ran that for five years before I merged it with with anvil. But in between, I was also fired. When I first started anvil, I was it was just a hang of shingle in 2000 to do some consulting, but I wanted a full time gig, and a year later, I had an opportunity to run my my team from the agency. I was fired from that company. That agency was sold to another agency for pennies on the dollar. And when my old boss died, rest in peace, we hadn't really cleared the air yet, which is it still is one of my greatest regrets. You know, for nine months we didn't talk, and then he passed away. Everybody peace, not before he passed away, I was able to get, yeah, his his soul mate. They weren't married yet, but they were going to get married. She told me that two weeks before he died, he expressed regrets and how we had ended the relationship, how he had fired me, and he was looking forward to reconnecting and re engaging our friendship. And so that made that meant the world to me. I had a lot of peace in knowing that, but I so the first the second place I got fired was this agency again about a girl. So the first time was a girl telling me, you need to ask the boss for more money or more equity. And I did, and that offended him. And the second time was my girlfriend at the time, who's who moved over from that agency to the new agency where my my old boss died before he could really start there. She was dating on the side the Creative Director at that agency, and he'd been there over 20 years. And so when I started there, I saw something was up, and I was like, Is there anything going on? She's like, No. And so eventually I just broke up with her anyway, because I just it wasn't working, even if she wouldn't admit that she was having a side relationship. But I was eventually fired because he was a board, you know, he was on the board. He was, he wasn't my boss, per se, but he was one of the senior partners, and they just wanted me out. You know, she might have money. Wanted me out. He definitely wanted me out. So that was the second time I got fired. And then the third time I got fired was it kept the stakes get given, getting bigger. When I sold my agency 14 months later, they fired me, really, not to this day, not for any cause. It's that they asked me to take an 80% pay cut a year into my buyout, and I and then I they were going to close my Portland office, which I was, I own the building, so I didn't want to lose my own myself as a tenant, so I offered to reduce my rent 30% so I basically, for two and a half months, worked for free for this agency that had bought my agency. So they were making payments to me. I was carrying the note, but they they couldn't. A year later, they're like, I'm sorry. So they a year later, I took a pay cut for two and a half months, and when I asked them, you know, when am I getting back to my pay? They said, Well, you know, we can't guarantee. We don't have a path for you back to your full pay. And I was like, Okay, well, then I told my wife, let him inform them that we're going to go back to, we are going to go back to our full rack rate on our rent. And when I, when we notified them, they they totally, they totally fired me. So they canceled the lease, and they fired me, and so they so it. And you know, I, my team was slowly being dismantled, a 10 of us, 11 of us, I guess 10 or 11 us went over, and within a year, there were only two wait. Within two years, there was only one person left on my team. So it was a really sad, sad experience for me. It wasn't as hard to sell my business as I thought. It wasn't as hard, you know, just emotionally, it wasn't as hard to sunset my brand after 22 years. Wasn't easy, but it was way easier than I thought. What was hard for me was watching them was was closing the office. It broke my heart and and then watching them dismantle my team that I spent, you know, two decades building, most of that team was within 10 years, the last 10 years, last even five years of of our business. Us. There was a relatively new team, but we were so tight, and it was just heartbreaking. So, you know,   Michael Hingson ** 30:09 yeah, wow. So what do you think was your biggest mistake in running your own agency?   Kent Lewis ** 30:19 That's a great question. I think the biggest, biggest mistake was not understanding the Hire great people and get out of the way. Lee Iacocca, you know, to paraphrase him, I hired great people and I got out of their way. But what I didn't do was make sure they had all the proper training, alignment of core values that they had, there was enough trust between us that they could come to me with they were struggling or failing. Apparently, I was a fairly intimidating figure for my former my young recruits, but most of that time, up until the last five years, I always had a senior VP my right hand. I hired her with the attention that she might take over the business someday, she was totally creating a wall between me and my employees, and I didn't know it until 2012 and so, you know, I had 10 years to try to undo what she had created the first 10 years, basically of a fear based management style, so that that didn't help me, and I didn't believe it. I didn't really see it. So then I rebuilt the company, and from the ground up, I blew it up in 2013 so 10 years after of having employees, 13 years of having the business, I completely dismantled and blew it up and rebuilt it. And what did that look like? It started with me just not wanting to go to work in the building, and I realized I can't quit because I'm the owner, so I have to fix it. Okay? I don't mind fixing things. I prefer to fix other people's problems instead of my own, but I really a lot of people do, right? Yeah. So I wrote a credo, basically, what would it take for me? What are, what are it got down to 10 truths, what? What are the truths that I need to go into work and that others around me, co workers, team members, need to also agree on so that we can work together successfully. So it went from being about clients to being about the team and being about accountability. And you know, it was so it was so decisive. It was so radical for my current team that had been with me five to 10 years of they lose clients, I get more clients. And I eventually told them, I can't replace clients as fast as you're losing them. It's not a sustainable business model, so you need to be accountable for your actions and your decisions. That's the new anvil. You and you're out. I gave them 72 hours to think about it and sign it. Signed literally to these credo. It's not a legal document, it's just a commitment to credo. And half the team didn't sign it, and they quit. And then within 12 months, the rest of the team either quit or we've I fired them because they did not fit in the new anvil. And it's funny because everybody else that I brought in didn't even it didn't even register. The credo was so unremarkable to them, because we were already aligned by the time we hired them, we'd done our research and the work to know who fit, and so they didn't register. So eventually we just dropped the credo was no longer needed as a guide or a framework. It's still on the website, but, but you don't, you know it doesn't really matter. But that's what I got wrong, is I did not build the trust. I did not have I had processes in place, but but without the trust, people wouldn't tell me how they felt or that they were struggling. So a lot of process wasn't recognized or utilized properly. So I rebuilt it to where and rebuilt the trust to where the team that was with me when I sold I was very close with them. There was 100% trust across the board, a mutual respect, arguably a mutual love for the craft, for each other, for the company, for our clients, and it was a lot of fun to work with them. I didn't sell because I was unhappy. I sold because I was happy, and I thought now's a good time to go and find a good home. Plus my wife was my operations manager for five years, and she wanted out. Frankly, I thought it was easier to sell the business than try to replace my wife, because she was very good at what she did. She just didn't like doing it, yeah? And she also didn't like, you know, me being her boss. I never saw it that way. But once she explained it, after I sold, she explained, like, you know, you boss me around at work, and then you try to boss me around at home, and I'm not having it. You pick one? Yeah, so, so I was like, I think, like, I bossed you around. And she's like, Hey, you just, it was your company. It was always going to be your company. And, you know, that's fine, but you know, I want to move on. I was like, Okay, why don't we just sell and so that, yeah, they the operational people. And so it took her, took that load off of her. She's worked for. Nonprofit now, so she's happy, and so that's good.   Michael Hingson ** 35:05 Well, it also sounds like there were a lot of people that well, first of all, you changed your your view and your modus operandi a little bit over time, and that's why you also got you fired, or you lost people. But it also sounds like what you did was you brought in more people, not only who thought like you, but who really understood the kinds of goals that you were looking at. And so it was a natural sort of thing. You brought in people who really didn't worry about the credo, because they lived by it anyway.   Kent Lewis ** 35:38 Yeah, that's exactly right. And that was, that was my lesson. Was, you know, I always knew there's a concept called Top grading. You know, you thoroughly vet client, you hire slow and you fire fast. Most entrepreneurs or business owners hire fast and fire slow, and it's very, very expensive and but, you know, I got that part and I just better. I was far better at, I was far better at, what would I say, creating processes than kind of feeling, the love? And so once I figured that stuff out, it got a lot it got a lot better.   Michael Hingson ** 36:16 It's a growth thing. Yes,   36:18 exactly, yeah. Well, you   Michael Hingson ** 36:21 have something, and you sent me something about it. You call it Jerry Maguire moment. Tell me about that.   Kent Lewis ** 36:28 Yeah. So that's, you know, I just, I just sort of backed into the story of just being unhappy. But what ended up happening more specifically that Jerry Maguire moment was putting my son to bed in March of 2013 and I mentioned that feeling of not of dread. I didn't want to go to work. I was frustrated with my team, disappointed in my clients, not appreciating the work we were doing, frustrated with some of my partners. You know, in the business, I felt disconnected from the work of digital because I'd worked on the business for longer than I'd worked in the business by that point, and so I just, it was, it was, I was a bit of a mess. And I realized, like, I need a reason to get up and go to work in the morning. And that's when I came up. I was inspired by Jerry Maguire's manifesto from from the movie, and apparently you can find it online. It's a 28 page manifesto. So I ended up distilling into those 10 truths that we called the credo, and so what happening is just again to recap, it took me a like a couple days. I had instant clarity. I like I fell asleep like a rock. Once I realized I had a plan and I had a framework, I felt better about it, even though there was much work to do. So as I mentioned, you know, half the team quit within the first week, the other half bled out over the next year. That meant 100% employee turnover for two years in a row. As like as I upgraded my team, that was painful. I had to hire three people in order to keep one good one. You know, as I as I search, because we don't have formal degrees in the world of digital marketing, right? So it's hard to find the talent, and you want to hold on to the good ones when you get them. So it took a long time to get the team dialed. Meanwhile, my clients got tired of the turnover. As I was trying to figure it out, they started leaving in droves, and so in 2014 in March, a year later, exactly, I lost my five biggest clients in a 30 to 45 day period. So I lost, you know, 40, over 40% of my revenue vaporized, and I could not replace it fast enough. So I didn't take a salary for nine months. I asked two senior execs to take small pay cuts like 10% and as we hunkered down, and so I didn't have to lay off any good talent, and so I didn't, and we sprinted, we rebuilt, you know, the pipeline, and brought some new clients in. By the end of the year, I paid back my my two senior employees, their 10% that they pay cut. I paid them back, but I didn't take a salary for nine months of that year. It was the worst year I'd ever had, and the only time I ever had to take a pay cut or miss a paycheck myself. So that was the price I paid. The plus side is once I realized that the focus should be on the employees, which was what the credo was, I didn't realize at the time that it wasn't about my clients anymore. They were the life blood. They were the blood flow, right? But we have this organism that needed love, so we I breathe life back into it, one employee at a time until we had a higher functioning group. So it took me five or six years, and in 2019 so six years after I blew the business up, I had an offer on the table, had a sale agreement finalized, and we were less than a week away from funding, and I backed out of the deal because I felt, one, it wasn't a good cultural fit, and two, there was more work to do. It wasn't about increasing my valuation more. It was about finishing my journey of an employee first agency and. Three years later, I sold for one and a half x higher multiple, so an additional seven figures to to another agency based on a stronger profitability, even though the revenue is about the same, stronger, you know, profitability right better. Happy clients, stable clients. It was a lower risk acquisition for them and the so that was the high point. The low point was becoming an employee and wanting to be the best damn employee that agency had ever seen to being a very disappointed, disengaged, disheartened, disheartened employee. And I then I decided I started writing notes of everything, not to do that they were doing wrong. And I decided, once they let me go, I need to focus on this. I think I needed to help my other fellow entrepreneurs ways to avoid going through what I went through as an employee, because I had just been one, and most of my employ, my entrepreneur friends, haven't been an employee for over 10 years. You easily, quickly forget what it's like to be an employee, and I want to remind them and as other senior leaders, how important it is to put your employees first, otherwise you can never deliver on your brand promise no matter what it is, because they won't deliver to your standards. Because it's you know, they don't feel the same attachment to a business if they as if they're not owners, right?   Michael Hingson ** 41:22 But it sounds like you also, when you did sell, by that time, you had employees, one who had bought into the credo, into the philosophy, and two were satisfied. So it was a much better situation all the way around. Anyway,   Kent Lewis ** 41:38 exactly. It's right? And that's, that's the thing is, I realized it's not about throwing money at a problem. It's about throwing time and care at a problem. And the problem is that most employers, there is no loyalty employ to employees anymore, and therefore there's no employee loyalty to brands anymore, to their employers. And so I'm trying to unwind that. And it's not about pension plans, per se. It's not about bonuses, really at all. That's one of 120 items on my punch list of auditing and employee journey is, yeah, do you have a bonus program? Mine was basically spot bonuses, little spot bonuses for timely things, because the big cash bonuses blew up in my face. You know, i i the biggest bonus check I ever wrote. The next day he quit and created a competing agency. Now, he had planned that all along it, the bonus was only helped him do it faster, but I realized there was no appreciation for the bonuses. So stop doing that. So instead, I would bonus, reward the team with experiences rather than cash. And they the cash they got from a really, I paid over market, so that money was not an issue, and so that experiences were the memorable part and the fun part, and it helped motivate when we'd have a little contest with, you know, the wind being a dinner or whatever it was, something fun, right?   Michael Hingson ** 43:00 I was, earlier today, talking with someone who's going to be a guest on the podcast. He's in Germany, and we were talking about the fact that there's a major discussion in Germany right now about the concept of a four day work week, as opposed to a five day work week, and in the four day work week. Inevitably, companies that subscribe to the four day work week have higher productivity, happier employees, and some of those companies have a four day work week with a total of 36 hours and up through a four day work week with 40 hours, which is, of course, 10 hours a day. And what he said, I asked the question, did it make a difference as to whether it was 36 or 40 hours? What he said was mainly not, because it was really about having three days with family, and that that whole mental attitude is really it that we, we have forgotten, I think, in this country, about employee loyalty so much, and we just don't see anything like what we used to see.   Kent Lewis ** 44:09 100% you are correct,   Michael Hingson ** 44:13 and so it is. It is an issue that people really ought to deal with in some way. But you know now the new chancellor in Germany wants to go back to a five day work week, just completely ignoring all the statistics and what's shown. So the discussion is ongoing over there. I'll be interested to see how it goes.   Kent Lewis ** 44:36 Yeah, yeah, totally. I would be in Troy. Yeah. We know for whatever reason, for whatever reason that they've you know that well, I guess it kind of makes sense. But you know, you wouldn't think you could be more productive fewer days a week, but the research is showing that these people, that you know, that the like the Northern Europeans, are the, you know, Finnish and Scandinavians are like the half. People on the planet, despite not being in maybe the friendliest climate, you know, 12 months of the year because of a lot of how they value, you know, work life balance and all of that. And I think that's the thing, you know, we we came from an industrial age where unions got us the weekends off. You know, it's a very different we've come a long way, but there's still a lot more to go, so I, I will be interested to see what happens with the with that concept that four day work week.   Michael Hingson ** 45:26 Well, the other part about it is we had the pandemic, and one of the things that came out of the pandemic, at least, I think, in the minds of a lot of employees, was even working at home, and having to do that, you still got to spend more time with family and people value that. Now I don't know how over time that's going to work, because I know there's been a lot of advocating to go back to just everybody always being in the office, but it seems to me that the better environment would be a hybrid environment, where, if somebody can work at home and do at least as well as they do at the office. Why wouldn't you allow that?   Kent Lewis ** 46:04 Right? Yeah, I think it's that's the other thing is, I do believe hybrid work is the best solution. We were doing three three days, two days in the office, required, one day, optional flex. I ended up going in most days of the week before I, you know, even after we sold and we sell at the office, because I like, I'm a social being, and I really enjoyed the time at the office. And it was, it was, I designed the space, and it was, you know, as my place, and it was my home away from home, you know. So I feel like I've lost a little bit of my identity, losing that office. Yeah, so, but yeah, I do think that it makes sense to be able to do remote work, whatever, wherever people are most effective. But I do know there is a reality that companies are fully remote have a struggle to create cohesiveness and connectiveness across distributed teams. It's just it's just science, right? Psychology, but you can be very intentional to mitigate as much as you can the downside of remote and then play up as much as you can the benefits of remote people having their life and they see, on average, I heard that people valued their remote work about to worth about $6,000 on average, that there's a number that they've quantified.   Michael Hingson ** 47:21 Wow. Well, I know I've worked in offices, but I've also done a lot of work at home. So for example, I had a job back in the late 1970s and worked and lived in Massachusetts until 1981 and the company I worked for was being pursued by Xerox. And the the assumption was that Xerox was going to buy the company. So I was asked to relocate back out to California, where I had grown up, and help integrate the company into Xerox. And so I did. And so that was the first time I really worked mostly out of home and remotely from an office. And did that for two and a half, almost, well, a little over two and a half years. And my thanks for it was I was terminated because we had a recession and the big issue really was, though, that Xerox had bought the company and phased out all the people in sales because they didn't want the people. They just wanted the technology. And I've always believed that's a big mistake, because the tribal knowledge that people have is not something that you're going to get any other place. Totally, totally agree. But anyway, that occurred, and then I couldn't find a job, because the unemployment rate among employable blind people was so high, since people didn't believe blind people could work. So I ended up starting my own company selling computer aided design systems, CAD systems, to architects. Some of the early PC based CAD systems. Sold them to architects and engineers and so on. So I did have an office. We started, I started it with someone else, and had an office for four years, and then decided I had enough of owning my own company for a while, and went to work for someone else, and again, worked in an office and did that for seven years. Yeah, about seven years, and then I ended up in at the end of that, or the later part of that time, I was asked to relocate now back to the East Coast, because I was selling to Wall Street and New York and Wall Street firms really want, even though they might buy from resellers and so on, they want company, companies that make products to have them an office that they can deal with. So I ended up going back and mostly worked out of the office. But then, um. I left that company in 1997 and it was, it was a little bit different, because I was, I I had my own office, and I was the only person in it for a little while. We did have some engineers, but we all kind of worked in the office and sometimes at home. But for me, the real time of working at home happened in 2008 I was working at a nonprofit and also traveling and speaking, and the people who ran the nonprofit said, nobody's interested in September 11 anymore. And you know, you're you're not really adding any value to what we do, so we're going to phase out your job. Yeah, nobody was interested in September 11. And three years later, we had a number one New York Times bestseller, but anyway, your face yeah, so I ended up opening the Michael Hinkson Group Inc, and working out of home, and I've been doing that ever since. I enjoy working in an office. But I can work at home and I can, I can adapt. So my exposure to people and working not at home is when I travel and speak and get to go visit people and interact with them and so on. So it works out   Kent Lewis ** 51:05 that's, that's fantastic, congratulations. That's awesome.   Michael Hingson ** 51:10 It is, it is, you know, sometimes a challenge, but it works. So for you, what is your philosophy? You obviously do a lot of giving back to the community nowadays, is that something that has kind of grown over time, or you always had that? Or what's your philosophy regarding that?   Kent Lewis ** 51:29 So I I believe that, as I mentioned, I believe earlier that learn and return us. I believe that you should giving, giving back your entire life, as soon as you're able to, in whatever way. And so I, you know, when I first moved to Portland, I barely knew anybody. I was volunteering at this local neighborhood house where it was, you know, as tutoring this kid, and ironically, in math. And I'm terrible at math. Then I went to Big Brothers, Big Sisters for a while, and then I for the last 19 for last 25 years, I've been a volunteer, and for eight or nine of those years, I was on the board of smart reading. It's a, it's a, it's not a literacy program in that you're not teaching kids to read. You're teaching kids a love of reading. So you just sit with, you know, title, title, one school kindergarteners in an area near you, and you sit and read with them for 10 to 15 minutes, that's it. And it's a game changer, because some of them didn't own any books. And then they get to take books home with them, you know, like scholastic style books. So anyway, I I decided, of all, like I have friends, that their their passion is pets, others, it's like forests or planet or whatever. To me, I think I can, I can solve all of those problems if I invest in children, because they're shaping our future, and we can put them on a trajectory. So for instance, statistically, prison capacity is based on third grade reading levels in blue. So if you're if you can't learn to read, you can't read to learn, so you need to have a be a proficient reader by third grade, or you're left behind, and you're more likely, 10 times more likely, to be in the system, and you know, not in a good way. So I realized, well, if I can help these kids with a love of reading, I was, I was slow to learn reading myself. I realized that maybe we, you know that one kid that you find a love of reading, that finds books they love and is inspired by the books and continues to read and have a successful educational career, then that's that person may go on to solve cancer or world hunger or whatever it is. So that's kind of how I look at so that's my theory in general about giving. And then specifically my passion is children. So that's kind of my thing, and I think there are a lot of different ways to do it. Last night, I was at my wife's auction or the fundraiser for her nonprofit, which is around the foster system. It's called Casa court, important court, court appointed special advocate. So these kids in the foster system have an advocate, that that's not a lawyer or a caseworker, you know, by their side through the legal system. And I think that's a fantastic cause. It aligns with my children cause. And I was, I had seven my parents fostered seven daughters, you know, Daughters of other people, and the last two were very that I remember were transformative for me as an only child, to have a sister, you know, foster sister that was living with us for, in one case, two years. And it was invaluable and helpful to me. She helped me find my love of reading, helped me learn my multiplication tables, all that things that your parents might be able to do, but it's so much cooler doing with somebody that's, you know, I think she was 17 when she moved into our house, and I was, like, nine, and she was so helpful to me, so inspiring. So in a nutshell, that's, that's what we're talking about   Michael Hingson ** 54:55 when you talk talk about reading. I'm of the opinion and one of the best. Things that ever happened to reading was Harry Potter. Just the number of people, number of kids who have enjoyed reading because they got to read the Harry Potter books. I think that JK Rowling has brought so many kids to reading. It's incredible.   Kent Lewis ** 55:14 Yeah, yeah. 100% 100% I Yeah. I think that even you may, you know, you may or may not like rolling, but I as a person, but she did an amazing thing and made reading fun, and that that's what matters, yeah, you know,   Michael Hingson ** 55:33 yeah, well, and that's it, and then she's just done so much for for children and adults. For that matter, I talked to many adults who've read the books, and I've read all the books. I've read them several times, actually, yeah, now I'm spoiled. I read the audio versions read by Jim Dale, and one of my favorite stories about him was that he was in New York and was going to be reading a part of the latest Harry Potter book on September 11, 2001 in front of scholastic when, of course, everything happened. So he didn't do it that day, but he was in New York. What a you know, what a time to be there. That's fantastic. But, you know, things happen. So you one of the things that I've got to believe, and I think that you've made abundantly clear, is that the kind of work you do, the PR, the marketing, and all of that kind of interaction is a very time consuming, demanding job. How do you deal with work and family and make all of that function and work? Well,   Kent Lewis ** 56:41 good question. I, I believe that that the, well, two things you have to have, you know, discipline, right? And so what I've done is really focused on managing my time very, very carefully, and so I have now keep in mind my oldest, I have three kids, one's graduating college as a senior, one's a sophomore who will be a junior next next year, and then The last is a sophomore in high school, so I'm there at ages where two are out of the house, so that's a little easier to manage, right? So there's that, but similarly, I try to maximize my time with my youngest and and with my wife, you know, I built in, you know, it was building in date nights, because it's easy to get into a rut where you don't want to leave the house or don't want to do whatever. And I found that it's really been good for our relationship at least once a month. And so far, it's been more like almost twice a month, which has been huge and awesome. But I've just intentional with my time, and I make sure 360 I take care of myself, which is typically working out between an hour and an hour and a half a day that I'm I really need to work on my diet, because I love burgers and bourbon and that's in moderation, perhaps sustainable, but I need to eat more veggies and less, you know, less garbage. But I also have been at the gym. I go in the Steam Room and the sauna, and I'm fortunate to have a hot tub, so I try to relax my body is after my workouts, I've been sleeping more since covid, so I work out more and sleep and sleep more post covid. And because I'm working from home, it's really I find it much easier to get up and take breaks or to, you know, just to manage my time. I'm not traveling like I used to, right? That's a, that's a big factor. So, so anyway, that's, that's kind of my take on that. I don't know if that really helps, but that's, that's kind of where I'm at.   Michael Hingson ** 58:59 The other part about it, though, is also to have the discipline to be able to be at home and work when you know you have to work, and yeah, you get to take more breaks and so on, but still developing the discipline to work and also to take that time is extremely important. I think a lot of people haven't figured out how to do that   Kent Lewis ** 59:19 right exactly, and that is so I do have an immense amount of, I do have an immense amount of, what would you say discipline? And so I don't know, yeah, I don't have that problem with getting the work done. In fact, my discipline is knowing when to stop, because I get into it, and I want to get things done, and I want to get it off my plate, so I tend to do sprints. But the other lesson I have from covid is listening to your biorhythms. So, you know, we're a time based society, and we look, you don't want to be late for this and that I you know, that's great, fine. But what's really more important in my mind is, um. Is to, is to be thinking about, is to let your body tell you when it's tired, if and and more importantly, is to not stress about in the mornings when I wake up early. By that, I mean between four and 6am before I really want to get up at 630 and I just if I'm awake, then I'll write stuff down to get it out of my head, or I will just start doing my start my day early and and not stress about, oh, I didn't get enough sleep. My body will catch up, yeah, it will tell me to go to bed early, or I'll sleep better the next day, or whatever it is. So that was important, and also to learn that I'm most I can get a lot of tasks done in the morning. And I think bigger picture, and that's what, that's why I wake up early, is all the things I need to do that I forgot. I didn't write down or whatever, and I think of them at between four and 6am but the other is that I do my best writing in the afternoon, like between four and six. So I told my, my wife and my, you know, my my kids, you know, my first figures out when they were both in the House. I was like, I may be working late, jamming out an article or doing whatever right before dinner, or I might be a little late. Can we can wait for dinner for a little bit? They're like, Yeah, that's fine. We don't care, right? So, but normally I'd be like, I gotta get home because it's dinner time. But now that I'm already home, I just keep working through, and then, and then, oh, I can take a quick break. But my point is, they're totally adaptable.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:27 But you communicate, yes, communication issue is key. Is key, absolutely. That's really the issues that you do communicate.   Kent Lewis ** 1:01:36 It's all about setting expectations. And they had no expectations other than eating dinner. And we've been eating dinner later. Just, just a natural evolution. So it's not, it's not even an issue now, because I don't want to, I don't want to, what, right? What? Late at night, I just found it late afternoon, I just in a zone. Anyway, yeah, you listen to your body, and I'm way less stressed because I'm not worried about, oh my god, I have to get to bed at a certain time or wake up at a certain time. It's like, just kind of run with it, you know, and and go from there. So what's next for you? What's next? So I want to shift from going from speaking for free to speaking for a fee. There you go. And the re the reason why is I never asked for, and I'd even waive, you know, honorarium or pay because I got more value out of the leads. But now that I don't have an agency to represent, two things. One is, I want to get paid to do my employee engagement retention talks, because it's I'm getting great feedback on it, which is fun. But I also am being paid now by other agencies, a day rate, plus travel to go speak at the conferences. I've always spoken on that like me and want me and I just represent. I just changed the name that I'm representing. That's it, you know,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:56 well, and there's value in it. I realized some time ago, and I k

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Did you know that there is a whole industry around the concept of helping deserving people and organizations to receive recognition through winning awards? In this episode we meet and get to know one of the foremost experts in this industry, Donna O'Toole. Donna grew up in the South of England in a real castle. At the age of 16 her family conditions changed, and she had to go to a home with four other girls who also lost their family arrangements. Donna had to go to work although she had wanted to go to university. Eventually she did get to earn her degree.   Donna studied linguistics and found ways to use her growing knowledge of the field. Eventually she discovered the value of recognition and how helping people and companies gain recognition made them better for the experience. She began working to help people and companies earn awards. She will tell us about this fascinating subject and why earning awards is important. She gives us statistics about how after working to win awards and the subsequent recognition sales and overall exposure usually grows.     About the Guest:   Donna O'Toole is an award-winning entrepreneur, international awards judge, and bestselling author of WIN! – the ultimate guide to winning awards. She's also the founder of August Recognition, a global leader in awards strategy and part of the Dent Global group, helping purpose-driven entrepreneurs stand out, scale up, and make a meaningful impact.   Named one of the Top 25 Customer Experience Influencers in the world, Donna has transformed the visibility and credibility of hundreds of businesses - from start-ups to FTSE 100 giants - by helping them win the recognition they deserve. Her clients span global brands, high-growth entrepreneurs, and inspirational leaders across every industry.   Donna is renowned for her outstanding success rate in the most prestigious awards in the world, including The King's Awards for Enterprise. She's passionate about the true value of awards - not just the trophy, but the trust, authority, and growth they generate.   Now, Donna is taking her mission even further. Together with her business partner and Dent Global co-founder Daniel Priestley, she's launching a pioneering new AI venture that's transforming the awards industry - making it safer, simpler, and smarter than ever for people to find, enter, and achieve the awards and recognition that matters.   Ways to connect with Donna:   https://www.augustawards.com/ - to get a free copy of my book: Win! and to get a Free awards list LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donnaotoole/ Instagram: @donnaot     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:17 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I am your host, Michael Hingson, and I think we'll have some fun today. We get to talk to Donna O'Toole, who is over in England, and she has a very interesting story to tell and a profession that she works at regarding awards. We'll get to all that in a bit. I don't want to give it all away, because it's more fun to listen to Donna tell it than it is to listen to me tell it. No one has ever said that I'm boring, but nevertheless, I always think that the people who come on the podcast are much more fun and interesting than I so I can't I can't argue with that, and of course, that's my job to make sure that happens. But anyway, here we are once again with unstoppable mindset. And Donna, I want to welcome you and thank you for being here.   Donna O'Toole ** 02:09 Thank you. It's great to be here with you. Michael, thank you.   Michael Hingson ** 02:13 And it's what about 930 in the evening? Or no, it's up 737   **Donna O'Toole ** 02:17 Well, it's   Michael Hingson ** 02:19 after dinner. Yeah. Well, thank you for being here. And we're, we're really glad to have the opportunity to do this. And so I'd like to start, it's so fun to always start this way. Tell us sort of about the early Donna growing up and all that. Ah, okay.   Donna O'Toole ** 02:35 Um, okay. So, well, I don't tell very many people this actually so secret. One for you, Michael, I actually grew up in a castle, which makes me sound like I lived in a fairy tale, but I didn't. It was definitely not a fairy tale, and I'm not a princess, so I'm sorry to disappoint anybody.   Michael Hingson ** 02:54 Well, what was it like growing up at a castle?   Donna O'Toole ** 02:59 It was, you know what? It's one of those things that when you're an adult, and you look back, you realize how amazing you were, it was, and how lucky you were. But when you're a child, it's just all, you know, isn't it? So, yeah, we were very lucky. I grew up in a town called Arundel, which is in the south of the UK. It's a very historic town, and the reason that I lived there was because my stepdad was the head groundsman at the castle, so he looked after all of the grounds for the Duke of Norfolk. And yeah, it was a it was a wonderful place to live. We used to be naughty and run around and go hiding in nooks and crannies that we shouldn't be. However, I was permanently petrified that there was ghosts and bats and all sorts of things like that.   Michael Hingson ** 03:48 So were there ghosts?   Donna O'Toole ** 03:49 Yes, definitely, certainly, they were making noises like ghosts, and we couldn't identify what they were. So, yeah, there's a few stories around that castle. Actually around I think there's a ghost of a lady in one in the library, and there is a ghost of a Labrador, actually, that people talk about seeing there as well. So I'm sure they were friendly.   Michael Hingson ** 04:14 Did you ever see any ghosts?   Donna O'Toole ** 04:16 I think I convinced myself that I did. On many occasion, my bedroom window looked out over Arundel Cathedral, which is was lit up at night, which looks very spooky. I used to be terrified to look out of the window at night, in case I saw something I didn't want to see.   Michael Hingson ** 04:36 So was the castle drafty and cold in the winter?   Donna O'Toole ** 04:40 Yes, definitely very stone and cold. And we had a ray burn. It's called, it's like an auger type thing where you just, you sort of heat up the kitchen by heating up this oven thing. Yeah, I remember putting wood in it. I remember that,   Michael Hingson ** 04:56 wow. Well, that was kind of fun. So how long did you. Live in the castle.   Donna O'Toole ** 05:00 So I lived in the castle until I was 16, and then her life took a bit of an unexpected turn at that point, and we had a difficult family breakdown that resulted in myself being actually taken into care for a while, so I didn't get to I did. I did finish school and finished my GCSEs exams as they were, but it did mean that I didn't get to continue on my education at that point, as I needed to earn some money and learn how to look after myself. So at 16, I was living in a home with four other girls who were in similar situations to me, which is girls who's through no fault of their own, their families couldn't look after them anymore. And we learned to, you know, live and survive and get through life together. And it was a great adventure. There was ups and downs, for sure, but actually at that point, I needed to get some work, and I also wanted to continue studying, so I ended up becoming an apprentice dental nurse, and that is where I started. And I never expected to go there. Wow.   Michael Hingson ** 06:24 I guess, I guess it is an adventure, though. Yeah,   Donna O'Toole ** 06:27 Life is an adventure, and you've got to be ready for whatever it throws at you. That's what I say. And   Michael Hingson ** 06:31 I think that's a good way to put it. I think that life's an adventure, and I think that we can choose how to look at life no matter what happens, and either we can think things are positive and grow with whatever occurs or not. Yeah, 100% 100% and   Donna O'Toole ** 06:46 actually, if it wasn't for that part of my life, I don't think I would be here today, doing what I'm doing now. So it's, it's incredible how you can't predict where life's going to take you, but you do go on a journey. So I actually became a dental nurse. And then I got bit bored of that, and my brain was always active, trying to think of something new to do. And I spotted a gap in the market for at the time dentists had there was just this legislation that changed that meant that dentists always had to have a nurse or a chaperone in the surgery with them, whereas before they hadn't had to have that. And so what was happening was you had all these small dental practices whereby the the dentist couldn't work if their nurse was on holiday or off sick or on maternity leave or something. So I spotted this gap in the market to be to start a dental nurse agency to fill those gaps, if you pardon the pun, and and to actually go all over Sussex and support the practices that needed help. So that was at the age of 19, I started my first business, and yeah, it was a great   Michael Hingson ** 08:00 success. I was just going to ask how successful it was.   Donna O'Toole ** 08:03 Yeah, it was great, and I really enjoyed it. And I got to know so many people. I trained nurses, which I really enjoyed as well. So I developed myself whilst I was developing them, which was great and and then after that, I I stopped that business and handed it over to some good friends who were brilliant nurses to have my children and to take a little break while I have my two daughters.   Michael Hingson ** 08:27 Now, did you ever get to university or college?   Donna O'Toole ** 08:31 Yeah, so then had my girls, and still I've got a very busy brain that needs a lot of occupying. So I thought, right, what can I do now? I've got two children under the age of four or five. I know I must need something else to do, so I decided to go back, finally, to university, and I studied linguistics, so English language linguistics at the University of Sussex in in the UK. And interestingly, it's incredible, because during that part of my life, I absolutely loved every part of it. I was really passionate about English, and as a child, I'd wanted to be an English teacher, but because my life had gone on a different path, it wasn't something that I'd been able to do. But actually, during that time, I studied large language models and computer mediated communication. And it just absolutely blows my mind that through making that decision and then further decisions later down the road, I'm actually now launching a company that is AI based that is containing large language models. So it's really, like, amazing how you can connect the dots in your in your journey.   Michael Hingson ** 09:45 And of course, you're calling it Donna GPT, right? I had to. I   Donna O'Toole ** 09:51 love it. I'm Michael. I am definitely calling it that now.   Michael Hingson ** 09:56 Well, that's, that is cool though.   Donna O'Toole ** 09:58 Yeah. So when I. Actually completed my degree. I came out of that and thought, right, well, I need to do some work now. And I started writing for businesses. I'm quite a business writer. I'm a real aura of people who can write fiction. I think that's incredible, yeah, but I'm definitely on the factual side. So I started business writing. Then I started, just by coincidence, started writing award entries for some businesses. I then started working with another awards agency, and I really saw, then the power of how awards and recognition helped people to reach their potential in business and in life, and so that then took me on my next journey.   Michael Hingson ** 10:47 Well, awards are, are interesting. And of course, we hear about awards for all sorts of things, but tell me more about the power of awards and where they where they can fit into society.   Donna O'Toole ** 11:00 Yeah. So, so we work from I work with business awards, so generally speaking, so even back then, it was sort of working with entrepreneurs, or entrepreneurial businesses, or even big brands, whereby they wanted to recognize their achievement and they wanted to raise their profile, so they needed to raise brand awareness, perhaps around what they do, their services, their products, and what's always quite I find quite interesting about awards is people who've never been involved in awards tend to come into them with quite skepticism, which is understandable. It's not a regulated industry, so you do have to be a bit skeptical and do due diligence around what awards you're entering. But they come into them with skepticism about themselves and actually whether they have what it takes to win. And very often, what I found was they did have what it takes to win, they just didn't have know how to communicate it in a way that others could understand that they had what it took to win. So my job, as I see it, is to really support them, to communicate their story, their data, their evidence, everything that they're doing, and turn that into a proposition that demonstrates why they would be exceptional at what they do, or their team is exceptional, their brand is exceptional, so that They can stand out in awards.   Michael Hingson ** 12:21 So it's almost like you're helping to train potential award recipients to respect what the awards are and what they do. Yeah,   Donna O'Toole ** 12:31 it is always understanding what they're looking for, what the criteria is, and how they can stand out against it. But also, you know, most people who are involved in a business, whether you're running a business or whether you're a part of a team or you're a manager, we don't have the time to stop and look back and think, wow, what have we done over the last year? What have we achieved? What you know, what's really standing out about us? We just don't give ourselves that time. So recognition and awards is a really good opportunity to stop and look back and celebrate together the development journey that you've been on in your business and and motivate your team and the people around you to do even more because you're recognizing it   Michael Hingson ** 13:13 well. So how did you actually get involved in doing awards in the first place? What that's a pretty unique sort of thing to take on.   Donna O'Toole ** 13:23 Yeah. So it was kind of a journey from starting out in business writing and then moving through into doing a few award entries, and then that became more and more, and then I worked for another organization. And then in 2016 I decided the time was right to launch my own company and to start supporting more people with awards. I was, had already been involved with the industry, so I was very well supported by some great awards in the industry. And so yeah, I I started my new business, and that was called August recognition. And because I'm a linguist, I like words that have extra meanings. And August actually means in its second sense of the word, when you're not using it as the month actually means respected and admired. So in my mind, I had started an agency that enabled people to be respected and admired for what they did, and help them raise their profile that way. So   Michael Hingson ** 14:24 you don't really hear a lot about the industry of helping people get awards, but I gather it's probably a fairly substantial industry around the world.   Donna O'Toole ** 14:35 Yeah, it's 10 billion pound industry in the awards industry in itself. It's 2 billion just in the UK. So yeah, it's a big, big industry. There's so many events connected to awards. There's so many different processes. So yeah, and there's, if you imagine, every different industry there is in the world there's awards for it. I dare you to find an industry where there's not an award. Yeah. Even,   Michael Hingson ** 15:02 I'm sorry, even, even AI. And that's pretty even AI, yeah, yeah. And so when AI starts generating its own awards, then we can probably worry a little bit,   Donna O'Toole ** 15:13 yeah, we're eating ourselves, yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 15:17 But still, it's, it's a fascinating, well, topic and industry to talk about, because I'm sure there's a lot to it. Of course, like with anything, there's also a lot of politics and all that sort of stuff, but, but it must be a fascinating industry to to be a part of and to see when you help somebody get an award. How does all that work? Yeah, so   Donna O'Toole ** 15:42 usually, well, we work with businesses from the smallest business in the world right through to the biggest business in the world, literally. And what I really love about the whole process is you, you as a small business, you can use the same strategies, you can enter the same awards as the biggest businesses can and you can win. So what I really love is that you you don't have to be a certain size, you don't have to be a certain type of business. You just need to be having an impact in some way on something, and then be able to tell It and Prove It, essentially.   Michael Hingson ** 16:19 So how do you as a person in the industry make your money or earn your money as part of all of this? So   Donna O'Toole ** 16:26 we work with clients who are looking for recognition. So for example, a brand may come to us and say, you know, over the last couple of years, we've done some great learning and development projects. We've trained our teams, we've digitized our processes, we've done all of these great things. We'd love to recognize the people that have worked so hard and really, you know, give them the recognition that they deserve. So we will then look at their project, look at their business. You know, what kind of impact has that had on it might be internally. It might be that it's had a great impact for their customers. It might be it's had a great impact for the impact. For the employees. And then we'll look at all of the data around that, and we will create, we will research which are going to be the best awards to recognize them, which criteria they match, which categories they match, and then essentially, we'll support them to execute all of the work that needs to go together to go into the awards process. Someone's once said to me, did you ever think you'd be running a business where you're basically writing exams every single day? Yeah, it's a bit like that. Fortunately, I don't do the writing anymore so, but yeah, I kind of love it.   Michael Hingson ** 17:36 Yeah. Well, it seems like it would be sort of your your writing exams every day, or you're involved in helping to prepare people for the exams.   Donna O'Toole ** 17:45 Yeah, it's very analytical from looking at what's been achieved, but then it's all about communication and how you're going to deliver that to the awards process. And it's all about finding the right awards that are going to give them the right recognition, that's going to really have a return on investment for the motivation of the team, for the brand awareness, whatever it is that their goals are, that they're hoping to get to.   Michael Hingson ** 18:06 Well, so awards in general, it seems to me, create a lot of recognition. And you say that recognition has the power to make people unstoppable? Tell me a little bit more about them. What that means to you? Yeah,   Donna O'Toole ** 18:24 absolutely. Um, something I call awards imposter syndrome, which is where, you know, often, and this typically is with entrepreneurs and smaller businesses. They they'll come to us and say, you know, I'd really love to get some recognition of my brand, but I really, I think we we're doing enough, or don't know if we're worth it or we could really stand out. And actually, you know, what we want to do is make them unstoppable. We we want them to see where all the power is in what they're doing and how they can make a difference in the world. So we will go and discover all of that about their business, and then help them to communicate it in a way that even now they can see what they're doing is brilliant. And then through that recognition, there's a lot of research to show the amount of motivation that awards bring to people, even more so than even a pay rise, you know. So through that recognition, it makes them feel more able. I always say to people you know, don't think about business awards right now. Think about the awards that you won when you were a child. Think about when you were at school and you entered awards in the swimming competitions or dancing competitions. Someone want someone told me today they won a competition for the best recorder player. I said I thought, I thought we had to ban recorders. But you know, when you got that recognition as a child, we didn't think, Oh, my goodness, I'm you know, do I really deserve it? I'm so shy. Let's not tell anyone about this recognition. We loved it, and it enabled us to go on and do more. So we want to do okay, we won that swimming competition. Let's do another swimming competition. Let's really learn our craft and do more and more of what we do better and better. Her and I liked people to try and think of that feeling that they had then and bring that into now with their business. You know, don't be humble about what you're doing, because the more that you can shout about your success, the more that you can help other people to achieve success through what you're doing, and the more you've got a platform to shine a spotlight on something that you believe in and that you want to make a difference in the world about. So, you know it, I call that, I say to people, you know, if you're feeling like a bit of an imposter about awards, one of the best things you can do is to create what we call a who wins when you win campaign. And what that is, is sort of putting a stake in the ground and making a pledge to say, when we win this award, we are going to go and do this great thing, and it might be we're going to go and do a team beach clean together. We're going to mentor some people. We're going to celebrate as a team and go out for the day, or we're going to plant some trees. You know, it could be anything that means something to you, but it's a really good opportunity to seal that recognition with something that reminds you that you are worth it and really helps you get over that imposter syndrome and celebrate your achievement.   Michael Hingson ** 21:14 I assume you also run into the other side of that, which are the people who just think by definition, because they are, whoever they are, they must deserve awards, whether, yeah, must be a lot of that. Yes. So   Donna O'Toole ** 21:27 a while back, because I'm a linguist, I interrogate language all the time. I can't help it. And I would look at, I judge a lot of award entries all from around the world. Judge the leading competitions in many countries. And I would look at these award entries, and I could tell what the person was thinking when they're writing the entry, as they're coming as you're reading it. And I developed these 10 personas of different types of people that enter awards. And so we've got everything from the imposter to the ostrich who wants to hide their head in the sand to the bridesmaid who's always the always, never quite makes it to the podium. And one of those actually is the peacock. And the peacock is the one who thinks they're going to win everything, and does come across like that, but isn't great about taking the feedback when they don't win.   Michael Hingson ** 22:20 Yeah, that's really the issue, isn't it? Right? It's they don't take the feedback, and they don't change what they do and why they do it and how they do it, to be a little bit more humble in what they're all about.   Donna O'Toole ** 22:33 Absolutely, absolutely. We've also got an awards persona called the politician, and that's somebody who doesn't answer any of the questions, and all their numbers don't add up.   Michael Hingson ** 22:46 Now, I wonder what my cat would think about awards. I wonder dogs are humble, but I don't know that cats are necessarily,   Donna O'Toole ** 22:56 yeah, they've definitely got a bit more persona going on, haven't they? I don't   Michael Hingson ** 23:01 know if they necessarily would be interested in awards, because they tend not to want to stand up in front of public and do stuff. That's   Donna O'Toole ** 23:07 true, that's true. Yeah, they're kind of yeah, they're their own creature, aren't they? They are, aren't they? I don't think they think they need awards, actually,   Michael Hingson ** 23:15 yeah, that's right. They don't think they need awards. They think that everybody should just recognize them for who they are,   Donna O'Toole ** 23:20 I might have to add a new persona to my league now.   Michael Hingson ** 23:26 Well, you know, there's, there's value in that, but, but still, so you've, you've helped a lot of people with awards. I wonder if you have a story that you could share where they've received recognition and it just completely changed their lives and what they did and what they do. Oh,   Donna O'Toole ** 23:49 so many, so many of those. Yeah. So, I mean, let's think of an example. So a few years ago, I was working, actually, it was interesting. I was I was introduced by on email, just to a gentleman called Andrew, who I was introduced by the Department of Trade and Industry here in the UK, who said he's got a great story. He's got a great business. He's growing fast. We think he should win some awards. We should talk to you. And so I was like, great. Let's get on a call, Andrew. And every time we booked a call, he didn't turn up to the call. And I thought, oh goodness, you know, it's like three attempts at this call and it's just not happening. And I just emailed him and said, look, it looks like you. Maybe you're not interested in winning awards, so, you know, catch up with me if you ever get the chance. And he emailed me back, actually, this is in the introduction of my books. And he emailed me back, and he said, Donna, I'm so so sorry. I'm going through a really difficult time at the moment. His wife had cancer. His son was being bullied at school, and he was really struggling, and he'd started a business that would have grown very quickly, whilst also as a side hustle, while. Also doing the job, and he was quite overwhelmed. And I said, he said, you know, and he actually said, so if I can't even turn up for a call, how could I possibly win an award? So I said, Oh, my goodness, okay, let me, let's get together, and I'll let you know whether you can win an award or not. But this is a big award we're talking about, because he'd actually been recommended to enter what was the Queen's Awards for Enterprise. It's now the king's Awards, which is the biggest and most prestigious business award in the UK, if not in the world. And I said, let's, you know, you've been recommended for this. Let's, let's at least explore it. So I went over to his house. We had a coffee, I went through everything of his business, and I said, You know what I do? Think you've got what it takes, but I don't think you're in the right mindset to be able to manage so let us help you. So he agreed, we worked on that project, and a year later, because that's how long it takes, I was absolutely delighted. He won the Queen's awards for innovation, and it was game changing for him. And what I really loved about it was, it's a couple of things. So one is because he's a techie person, and he had launched it was a software product that he'd developed. He'd put the logo for the award on his website, and he measured the impact that that was making on his website, which is really useful for me to know, because often people don't do that. And he got came back to me in a couple of months later, and he said, in three months, his sales have gone up by 30% because of the impact of winning this award. And you know, when you're running a business and you're trying to run a family and you've got other things going on that are really important, you need your sales to go up without you having to work harder, because it gives you the free time. It gives you the ability to employ people to support you. It gives you then the time back with your family when they need you most. So I was absolutely delighted for him that it had an impact on him and his business that would enable him to actually have the time that he needed with his family and help them and support them. So that was something that was game changing in my mind, for, you know, for a really personal reason. And I was delighted he was happy to share that in in my book. Yeah, so that that was a lovely one.   Michael Hingson ** 27:14 So what is kind of the common thread? Or, how do you what is it you see in someone that makes them award winning, that that genuinely makes them award winning, as opposed to the politicians and peacock   Donna O'Toole ** 27:28 Okay, so what it is is they need to be making an impact in some way. And I think people tend to be quite fixated on on measuring or looking at their customer service, but I'm looking at their customer impact. So what their customer impact is that's something customer service is transactional, right? Customer impact is transformational. So what is it that you're doing that is making a difference or making life easier in some way for your customers? Or it is could be internal as well. So it could be your employees, for example, but generally it's impact. Now, with Andrew's story, the software that he developed, it was the first software that had the biggest ability to, I mean, I'm not a techie, so I'm probably describing this in the wrong way, the ability to display charts and graphs with the biggest amount of numbers. So we think, Okay, well, why is that important? Well, these are the graphs and the charts that are going into ECG machines in hospitals. These are going into universities to do research. You know? These are going into all sorts of things, stocks and shares. They're going into Formula One racing cars. There's so many, there's so much impact coming out from having designed that software that it's having an impact on us as humanity, and that's the kind of golden thread that you want in your award, is, what is the impact that you're having, and where can you show and prove that it's making a difference to someone, somehow, somewhere?   Michael Hingson ** 28:56 And I assume there are, we've talked about it, but I assume that there are a lot of people who are award winners who never, just never thought they would be, even though they're, they're perfectly capable and, oh yeah, they're deserving, but they, they don't, they're not doing it to seek the award. They're doing it to do what they want to do.   Donna O'Toole ** 29:18 Yeah, and they need, they need the recognition to shine that you know, 90% of businesses are small businesses now, and it's a very noisy world out there when you're trying to sell your products and services, you need to be able to do something that helps you to cut through and to get into customers minds and build trust. 85 Nielsen did a study 85% of customers now want to see credible awards on your website, on your products, before they will have the trust layer there to buy from you. What's really interesting is, years ago, we had, you remember when reviews came out? So Amazon was one of the first organizations to do reviews. I actually studied. Reviews and the mechanisms and language structures in them. And we all trusted reviews at the beginning, because, oh, great, you know, someone's going to tell us what their experience was of this thing, and we love it. And then as time went on and as the decades have progressed, we then learned not trust reviews, because it was like, Oh, hang on, they might be fake reviews, or, you know, that could be a competitor, putting a bad review on a competitor. So there's lots of reasons then not to trust reviews. So then we go, oh, well, what do we trust? Then we can't just trust what the business is telling us. We need something that's external, that's third party, and that's going to enable us to trust that brand. And then what we saw then is the pandemic happened, and we all went to shopping online. We all went to living online, and we all saw businesses fall apart and lose money who we never expected to because they didn't have the digital transformation turn around quick enough, or for whatever reason, there was a lot of businesses that suffered in the pandemic, and a lot thrived, and since that then, it was almost like awards and reviews together became even more important to all of us, because we needed something to help us to trust the brands other than, you know, the strongest referral, which is a word of mouth referral. So if you haven't had a word of mouth referral and you've gone online and you found something through a search, how do you know whether you can trust putting your money into that business to buy its products or services? So this is really where we come back to recognition, to say, Well, no, this is a this brand gives excellent customer service, or this brand is a great place to work. It really looks after its employees. So there's a huge amount of reasons now why businesses do awards to demonstrate they are trustworthy in so many ways like nowadays. You know, we live in a world where employees want to work for organizations that will look after them and that will treat them well, so that employees looking for jobs will go out looking for the businesses that have got a great place to work accreditation or award because it makes them trust that they're going to be looked after. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 32:08 it's interesting. Nielsen did a study back in 2016 regarding brand brand loyalty and disabilities, and what they found was that people with disabilities are at least 35% more likely to stay with an organization and buy from an organization that has done things like really taken the Time to make their websites accessible and to make their their environment welcoming to people with disabilities, because it is so hard to oftentimes deal with companies they're they're companies that that I deal with their websites. They're just not accessible, and they don't want to change, and it's not magic to make them accessible, but they don't, and then there are other companies that do, and I agree with the Nielsen study. It makes perfect sense, because the reality is, you're going to steal with companies that that really take the time to show that they value you being there, yeah,   Donna O'Toole ** 33:17 well, it's interesting, actually, because I've been looking at this in the awards industry and accessibility, and it's something that I'm passionate about as well. And so we've just written a white paper, we've just done some research, commissioned some research, and we've just written a white paper on accessibility and awards, because we want people to be recognized, whatever, whoever, whatever they do, it shouldn't be saved for anyone who isn't, you know, doesn't have a disability or can't access their forms. You know, it should be open to absolutely everybody. So we've been looking into that now and seeing, you know, what is it that we can do to influence the industry to be more accessible and to really share recognition for all?   Michael Hingson ** 33:59 Yeah, well, and, and it's important, I think, to do that, because there have been enough statistics to show that roughly 25% of the population has some sort of a disability in the traditional sense of the word. Now, I have a different view than that. I believe that everyone on the planet has a disability, and for most people, their disability is you're light dependent. You don't do well in the dark, and if suddenly you're in a building and the power goes out or whatever, you scramble around trying to find a light source or a smartphone or a flashlight or whatever. But the reality is that all those light sources do is cover up your disability. On the other hand, I do recognize that there are people. We're in a minority by any standard, because we are, we are not the traditional, if you will, person. We do tend to be blind, or we tend to be deaf or hard of hearing, or we tend to be low vision, or we don't walk, and there are fewer of. Less than there are of the rest of you light dependent people, and so you don't recognize the disability that's there. But it's, it's important, I think, for people to recognize it. Because in reality, when people suddenly realize, Oh, I've got my own challenges, then you get to be more aware of and want to, at least a lot of times, think about ways to make the world a more inclusive place overall.   Donna O'Toole ** 35:27 I think that's such a great way of looking at it, and it really helps immediately. I couldn't see exactly what you you're saying is, yeah, 100% as soon as the lights go out, I'm completely incapable of knowing what to do next. So, yeah, you're absolutely right.   Michael Hingson ** 35:44 Yeah, it is. It is one of those things that we just don't deal with enough. But nevertheless, it's, it's there. So there, there are a lot of reasons to to deal with access, and that's why I work with a company called accessibe that has been they started smaller and narrower in scope, but they have become very robust in doing things to make the internet a more inclusive place. And so one of the things that they've learned is you can't do it all with AI, although AI can help. And so there are so many things to be done, but the reality is, there are a lot of different kinds of disabilities that really need the Internet to and website creators to pay attention to their needs, to make sure that they, in fact, do what's necessary to make the web accessible to those people. It's a challenge.   Donna O'Toole ** 36:40 It is, and we're going through that challenge at the moment, actually. So I'm just launching a new business, and it's called, it's an AI platform that's going to enable people to do exactly what we do as an agency, find, enter and win awards, but on a platform that is accessible to everybody. So it's aI enabled. But obviously, as you exactly say, that's not the end of the story. So there's a lot of work to do, and we're doing lots of research to find out what we need to do to make sure that that is accessible to everybody, because we want to enable more people to have a good chance of getting the recognition they deserve through a platform that enables them to do that, rather than perhaps miss out on really vital recognition that could help to promote what they do just because they can't access it.   Michael Hingson ** 37:31 Yeah, well, and it happens way too, way too often. Yeah. And it's not like it's magical to make the web more inclusive. It's just that a lot of people don't know how to do it. Although the information is readily available, they just don't consider it a priority.   Donna O'Toole ** 37:48 Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, we're really putting this front and center. My business partner is Daniel Priestley. He's just been on the driver CEO actually talking about the AI side of it. So together, we're really working at trying to join all the dots so that we get all the right technologies in there and ways of working. So I'll be getting you beta testing that. Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 38:14 absolutely. And if there's any way to help, I am very happy to help. Thank you. So Don't, don't hesitate to reach out. So we will. We've now said that publicly for the whole world, that's all right. So what do you say to the person who says winning an award is just not for   Donna O'Toole ** 38:33 me? I think often, you know, I was thinking about this earlier, actually, and I was thinking, you know, there's different things that we're all in favor of and all not in favor of most of the time, when I come across people who say a winning awards is not, for me, is they either haven't been involved in an awards process before, or they feel a bit shy of it and like a bit of an imposter. And, you know, it's a risk, isn't it? You're putting yourself up to be judged, ultimately. So it does take a bit of courage, and it takes a bit of reflection. So, you know, I say, Look at what impact you're having, you know, go away and see, have you got impact on your customers? Somehow, have you got impact on your community? Somehow? It doesn't all have to be about transactional business. It could be that actually you're doing something great for the environment or sustainability or for a community source or for charity, you know, so what are you doing that's making a difference, and it could recognition help you to do more of that? Could it give you the spotlight to enable you to do more of that purpose? Because if it could, then why not, you know, why not do it and get some recognition?   Michael Hingson ** 39:36 Yeah, well, and that makes sense. And but some people may still just continue to say, well, I don't really think I've done that much, and so it isn't for me.   Donna O'Toole ** 39:47 Yeah, absolutely. And you'll always have people who don't want to do everything at the end of the day, you know, it's probably, realistically, it's probably, you know, the top 10% of businesses that are looking to win awards because they're already in that zone or. Where they're, you know, they're growing, they're they're trying to transform. They're always jumping on the next best thing. So, you know, it's a good way to benchmark ourselves as well, and to say, you know, how can I progress this year? Well, what would it take for me to win this particular award? Let's say, let's have a look at what it would take, and let's see if we can get to the business, to that stage, because that way you can develop the business first, before you even think of entering the award, so that you have got the impact, and you have got, you know, all the right things to show that you're making a difference.   Michael Hingson ** 40:31 Yeah, and you brought up a point earlier, which I think is extremely interesting, the whole issue of awards and reviews, one of the things that I do when I'm looking at buying a product that I'm not overly familiar with is I love to look at the worst reviews for the product. Yeah, they're the most fun, because you find out really quickly. If you look at those reviews, you find out whether the person really knows what they're talking about or not and whether they really got good arguments. And I find that the people who give the bad reviews generally are, are not, are not necessarily, really giving you substantive information that you can use.   Donna O'Toole ** 41:15 Yeah, exactly. That's often the way I am. I actually studied reviews, and I looked at the different language structures and reviews of different retail stores, and how, how the the language that the people used in their reviews influenced the buyers. And it was really funny, because this is back in the days. This is just when I was at university. I was doing my dissertation, and it was what we were looking for. What I was looking for was what represent, what people felt represented good value for money. Because no matter how much money you've got, whether you've got a pound to spend or 1000 pounds to spend, you just want to get good value for money for what you're spending. So it doesn't really matter how pricey the product is. It matters your perception of good value for money, and that's essentially what tends to come across in a review, even if people don't say it is whether they think it's good value for money or not, whether it's the brand or the actual product. And it was really funny, because I did this whole study, and I came up with a structure that retailers should use to give to their reviewers to then put the review in in the most helpful way possible for the people then looking at the reviews who want to purchase the product, and I it was great, and I was really happy with it, and got first class and all of that. Anyway, a while later, I bought a coat from a store called Debenhams in the UK, which is now only online. But I bought this coat, I wrote a review and put it on their website. And it was quite the early days of reviews. Still, two days later, Debenhams called me, and I couldn't believe it, because when you had to leave your review, you had to leave your name and number, and it was like, I said, it's a very new thing then. And they actually telephoned me, and they said, Hello, we want to say thank you for your review that you left about this coat, and I still have the coat. And because, because of your review, we sold out the product. And so we want to say thank you. So we're sending you a voucher. And I got this voucher through the post. And I mean, you wouldn't get that, I don't think nowadays, no, but it really showed me the difference that a review could make on a product back then, you know, and how writing the right type of review, not just saying it's great, but why it's great, why I considered it good value for money about the material and the sizing and the shape and all of the quality and that kind of thing. It gave people reassurance to buy, and that's what we're looking for when we're looking at reviews. And that's where awards can come in and kind of secure that trust as well. I don't know about you, but I get down rabbit holes with reviews on things like trip,   Michael Hingson ** 43:52 oh yeah. Well, what I found is, if I look at the positive, the best reviews, I get more good technical information, and I got and I get more good product knowledge, but then I look at the bad reviews, and the reason I look at those is I want to see if they truly are giving me the same information the other way, and they don't. They're it's totally emotional, and a lot of times it is just not, in fact, what I or others find with the products, and that the bad reviews tend not to really give you nearly the information that the bad reviewers think they're giving you if you if you read them carefully. And I think that gets back to your whole issue of studying language, but still, they're not giving you the information that they really ought to be giving you. And, you know, I've had some where somebody gave a bad review to a product because the box arrived and it was open or wasn't sealed. Well, yeah, all right, so what   Donna O'Toole ** 44:55 exactly I know it's ridiculous. I mean, I think we're as consumers a bit more. Pragmatic about it nowadays, but as businesses, we need to be able to demonstrate to our customers in every way possible, you know. And that's why social media now and user generated content is so popular. Because we don't want to see what it looks like on a model anymore. We want to see what it looks like on a real life, personal we want to hear someone's like real life, day to day experience of something, as opposed to a polished article on it, right,   Michael Hingson ** 45:26 which, which is, is the way it ought to be. And again, that gets back to substance. And the the people who give really good reviews are generally the ones that are giving you substance. I've had some bad reviewers that had very good reasons for why they feel the way they do. And then you look at it and you go, Well, maybe it doesn't fit in their situation or, aha, they really know what they're talking about. I'm going to take that into consideration when I look at buying this product or not. But a lot of them   Donna O'Toole ** 45:57 don't. Absolutely, no, absolutely, yeah, I could do this for days.   Michael Hingson ** 46:04 Yeah. Well, it is. It is fascinating, but it's part of human nature   Donna O'Toole ** 46:09 psychology, isn't I tell you when else it comes up and it's quite interesting. So often we make companies may approach us and say, Leo, we want to win awards to be the best place to work. And we'll say, okay, great, you know, tell us about the workplace, and we'll go through all these different criteria with them, and they tell us all this great stuff. And then we go and do our own research as well, because we need to verify this, right? And we go on to glass door, and then we see some horrendous reviews from employees that have left. I think, okay, maybe this is, maybe this is not quite all the story we're getting here. Yeah. So, you know, the thing with awards is, if you are saying anything about your business, you're going to have to prove it. So reviews from your customers and reviews from your employees are super important for awards. Actually,   Michael Hingson ** 46:59 I find as a speaker that letters of recommendation are extremely important. In fact, I even put it in my contract that if someone likes the talk, then I expect to get a letter of recommendation. And for a good amount of people, they do that, although I've had some people who forget or just don't. But the letters are extremely valuable, especially when they go into detail about not just the talk, but like in my case, I view when I visit a customer, or when I view when I talk about going to speak somewhere, I believe that I'm a guest like anyone who goes, and it's not about me, it's about them. It's about the event. It's about the people who are putting it on. It's about the audience. And I always want to make sure that I do everything I can to be as not a problem as possible. And I know that there are some people that don't do that. I had a I had an event once where I went and spoke, and while there, I talked to the person who brought me in, and I said, What's the most difficult speaker you ever had? Had come here? And I was just curious. I was curious to see what he say without any hesitation. He said, We had a woman who came to speak, and we honored the contract, although still don't know why, but she insisted that in the green room, and so there had to be one, but in the green room there had to be a brand new, never used crystal champagne flute full of pink M M's. Now what does that have to do with being a speaker? Well, I know some people just like to take people through the wringer. They want to try to drive the point home that they're the bosses. Well, I think that, you know, I know what I can do. What I said to the guy, though afterward I said, Well, okay, I hear you. They actually did find peak Eminem. So was interesting. I said, Well, let me just tell you that if you bring cheese and crackers, I'll share them with you.   49:10 They brought you that we had fun, yes,   Michael Hingson ** 49:13 but, you know, but, but he, he understood that there were no demands. I wouldn't do that. I just think that that's not what I'm supposed to do as a speaker. My job is to in a well, inspire and motivate and and to educate. But it's not my job to be difficult. And I've gotten some wonderful letters that say how easy I made it to work with them, which is great. Yeah, fantastic. I'm sure you did. So it's, it's a lot of fun to to see some of those, and I've gotten some great stories over the years, which is really   Speaker 1 ** 49:46 a lot, and that's why they love to have you. Well, I hope so   Michael Hingson ** 49:53 we still do it, and it's a lot of fun to help and motivate and inspire. But yeah, I. I and by the way, I guess I'd never be interested in pink M M's anyway, so I wouldn't see the colors. So,   Donna O'Toole ** 50:08 yeah, glass of water is just about the thing on my list.   Michael Hingson ** 50:12 Yeah, well, you know, I'll take M M's if they show up. And I'm not going to demand them, that's okay. But you know, people are interesting. So once somebody's won an award, you've talked about this some, but when I once somebody has won an award, what's next?   Donna O'Toole ** 50:28 So next, it's all about, well, sharing it to demonstrate why people often forget to tell people why they've won an award. They just say that they've won an award. I think it's important to say, why? Like, what is it? What is it? What impact are you having? What's the difference that you're making out there in the world? Why have you won and share that on your profile? As I said, you know, people buy from people now as well. If you're winning an award as a leader or as a speaker or as an entrepreneur, you know people want to know about that because it helps to give credibility to what you do and trust like, just like those letters of referral that you're talking about. So, you know, get that on your LinkedIn profile, get it onto your podcast, you know, all of those different things, and take pride in your work and share that   Michael Hingson ** 51:14 I had a salesperson I hired is my favorite sales guy, and when I asked him, as I asked everybody who came to apply for jobs, what are you going to be selling for us? Tell me about that. He is the only person who ever said, The only thing I really have to sell is myself and my word. Your product is stuff, and it's all about trust and it's all about honoring my word. And he said, The only thing I asked from you is that you backed me up. And I said, well, as long as you do a good job, you know, but he understood it, and he's actually the only person that I ever hired that really articulated that, but that was always the answer I was looking for, because it really told me a lot about him. Just that simple answer told me more about him than anything else anyone, even he could say,   Donna O'Toole ** 52:06 yeah, absolutely. So it's so important, and you know, so I'm part of a key person of influence program that Daniel Priestley runs, and it's I do profile coaching for entrepreneurs to help them to become a key person of influence in their in their industry. And now that's not being an influencer. That's being someone who's known for being good at what they do and being a key person in that industry. And you know, work flows to you if people know what you do and know who to come to because you're the expert in that area, if you're a small business, you're an entrepreneur, you're struggling to get leads, then actually maybe you need to make yourself put bit more known. People tend to be bit shy and hide behind their brand. But you know, if you look at people like Richard Branson, you know, we when you trust an entrepreneur, then you will buy from the brand. And there's many more entrepreneurs I could mention, who when the trust is lost with them because of their behavior in some way, then their brand suffers. It's quite clear to see, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 53:09 do you find that most people who win an award do carry on and do positive things as a result, and that their brand and what they do improves, or is some people win and just falls by the wayside.   Donna O'Toole ** 53:27 Generally speaking, if you're the people that are going in for awards, the brands that are going forwards, they're progressive, so they usually progress with it. There's a piece of research that shows that businesses that have won awards are around 77% more valuable than businesses without awards even five years after winning. And that's because when you're going for an award in business, you've got to do a lot of develop. You know, there's got to be some good stuff happening in your business. And so naturally, the businesses that are doing those good things want to keep doing more of those good things internally, and so they tend to keep driving the business forward. And they have that motivation. They have motivated teams who are being recognized for the work that they're doing, and all of that naturally pushes them forward. So in five years time, they're still leagues ahead of their competitors that are not winning awards.   Michael Hingson ** 54:20 So always worth exploring winning awards. Oh, 100% Yeah. If   Donna O'Toole ** 54:27 I always say, I think, quote Nelson Mandela on this, you've got nothing to lose. You'll either win or you'll learn. If you don't win, then you should learn something about what you do need to do to win, and that will bring your business on.   Michael Hingson ** 54:39 Absolutely agree it's like, I also believe there's no such thing as failure. Failure is really it didn't go the way you planned. And so what do you learn in order to make that not happen again?   Donna O'Toole ** 54:51 Yeah, exactly, that exactly. So we need that kind of resilience in business today,   Michael Hingson ** 54:57 if people listening and watching this. Just take away one lesson and get one piece of advice out of this. What should it be?   Donna O'Toole ** 55:04 Understand your impact? I would say people don't often understand their impact. So ask your customers, ask your employees, what's improved since we've been working together? What? What if? What's improved for you since you've been using our product? And then calculate up what is that impact that you're having? You know, if 90% of your customers are saying that since using your product, I don't know, they're they're they're having a better their their accounts are better, or their skin is better. You whatever it is your product or your service is, then you've got impact that you're having. So start investigating what that impact is, and then that will help to steer you towards which kind of awards you could potentially be winning as well.   Michael Hingson ** 55:47 And of course, if you really think about your impact and whoever you are and whatever business you're doing, and you do monitor that, then that's one of the most important things that you can do about your business anyway, and people should be doing that.   Donna O'Toole ** 56:01 Yeah, exactly. But probably 90% of people that come to me aren't measuring their impact, and so it's a surprise, but I always say, Well, if you don't know what your impact is, how do you know that what your product or your services works? Just because people are buying it, you still need to know what your impact is. How do you measure impact? Oh, you can measure it in so many different ways, and you want in awards to be able to demonstrate it both quantitatively and qualitatively. So typically, in large corporate organizations, they will be measuring impact. So there's something called net promoter scores. So, you know, they'll be asking customers, would they recommend them? They'll ask them what they're enjoying about their products and things. So they tend to have some kind of measurement built into their process, in their customer departments, however, in smaller businesses, often they don't. So I say, you know, draw up a simple survey, ask your customers what's changed since you've been working with us. Let's say you're a service provider. So are you less stressed since you've been working with us? Do you have more revenue coming in since you've been working with us? What is it? And get them to answer a little survey. And then you could go all this collective impact that you can put together to look at the percentages and see what that's telling you. And if you don't want to know what the impact is in your business, then I question why you don't want to why   Michael Hingson ** 57:16 you're in the business in the first place, exactly. Well, tell us about your book. You've mentioned books several times, yeah.   Donna O'Toole ** 57:23 So I wrote a book called Win, of course, raise your profile and grow your business through winning awards. And really, it's a toolkit for for entrepreneurs. I was working with a lot of large businesses, and, you know, I was conscious that small businesses don't always have the resources to win awards or to be able to outsource. So I wrote a book that they could use to follow the toolkit, essentially, of winning awards. So that's developing their strategy, knowing understanding how awards work and which ones would suit their business, setting awards goals, understanding criteria. What does innovation really mean? What do they want to see? What kind of evidence do I need to provide? How do I know if it's the right race for me? All of those things. So it takes you end to end, through the awards journey internationally. You know, no matter where you are, you can follow the same process, and you could nowadays, it's really important to become the most award winning in your sector, so you can follow the process to get there. And that's a hugely valuable tagline.   Michael Hingson ** 58:26 And I appreciate that you sent us a picture of the book cover, and it is in the show notes. I hope people will go get   Donna O'Toole ** 58:31 it absolutely and it is on Audible as well, so that everyone can access it. So yeah, enjoy listening to my voice a lot more.   Michael Hingson ** 58:39 I was just going to ask if you read it. I did read it for you.   Donna O'Toole ** 58:44 Do you know what it was? I was so proud of that I was more proud of the audible recording than I was of writing at the book. But I don't know why. I think it's because I actually really enjoy listening to books on audio. So I'm quite passionate about listening. I like listening to the actual author's voice, though. So I found I was quite interesting, actually, when I found, when I recorded it, that was quite good at recording audio. The studio guy that I was working with was like, Oh, you're really good at this. We could just drop it words back in if there was a mistake.   Michael Hingson ** 59:14 There you are. See, it is so much better to edit today than it used to be, because now it is. It is all electronic, and I, I edit from time to time, just different things and all that I don't we work on not editing the podcast. That is, I don't want to cut out part of a conversation, because it is a conversation, but, but now you can do so many things, like, if there's a lot of noise, you can even filter that out without affecting the camera. It is so cool.   Donna O'Toole ** 59:43 Yeah, very, very clever. So, yeah, get it on Audible. There you   Michael Hingson ** 59:47 go. Well, great. Well, I hope people will Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and you should get an award for doing it. That's all there is to it. But I really appreciate you being here. And. I appreciate all of you out there listening to us and watching us. Love to get your thoughts. How do people reach out to you? Donna, if they'd like to to talk with you,   Donna O'Toole ** 1:00:09 absolutely. So you can con