Podcasts about pricing creativity

Welcome to episode 139. My guest is Blair Enns - a globally recognised author, speaker and the founder of Win Without Pitching, a sales training company that has transformed how creative professionals position and sell their expertise Blair is the author of three books; o The Win Without Pitching Manifesto, a rallying cry for creative agencies to stop giving away their thinking for free. o Pricing Creativity, a guide to pricing your work based on value, not hours. o And now, his latest book - The Four Conversations a model for selling expertise If you've ever felt stuck in the sales process, unsure how to talk about money, or like you're chasing clients instead of leading them - this episode is for you. You can connect with Blair Enns here: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/blairenns/ Website: http://www.winwithoutpitching.com/ Books: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Books-Blair-Enns/s?rh=n%3A266239%2Cp_27%3ABlair%2BEnns

One of the worst parts of the job for many? Figuring out pricing. If you've ever had to price anything, this is a must listen episode. Blair Enns is the visionary behind Win Without Pitching, the organization that's rewritten the rules on how expert advisors and creatives close deals. As the author of The Win Without Pitching Manifesto and Pricing Creativity, plus co-host of the 2Bobs Podcast, Blair has redefined integrity-based selling and value-based pricing for countless leaders. In this episode, he and Ryan explore why fear is an inevitable part of the sales process and how embracing courage can help you command higher fees. Blair shares practical strategies to avoid “pitching prisons,” from anchoring high on pricing to structuring proposals with multiple options. He also shares some nuggets from his new book, The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise, and reveals the unexpected path that led him from big-city advertising to a remote Canadian mountain town, where his mission to help businesses thrive took root.

Thinking about quitting your job to start a business? Think again! Veteran entrepreneur Steve Lomas shares candid advice on the realities of entrepreneurship, the importance of mentorship, and the emotional rollercoaster of building a business.

Discover the secrets of niche specialization and how it can transform your business strategy. In this episode, we recount our journey with Podcast Solutions Made Simple and our pivotal decision to focus on real estate professionals. We are excited to host Robert Ingalls, founder of LawPods, who shares his compelling story of moving from a career in law to establishing a successful podcast production agency for law firms. Learn how narrowing your focus can simplify branding, streamline processes, and enhance expertise while avoiding the pitfalls of trying to be everything to everyone.Quality over quantity takes center stage as Robert and I discuss the challenges and rewards of transitioning from competing on price to delivering exceptional work. Hear personal anecdotes about our early struggles, the importance of recognizing your worth, and how "Pricing Creativity" influenced our approach to business. Whether you're contemplating starting your own venture or looking to elevate your current one, this conversation offers invaluable insights into building a high-quality, higher-margin business model.Robert Ingalls is a recovering attorney, speaker, and the founder of LawPods, one of the first podcast marketing agencies for law firms. After the challenges of practicing law threatened to derail his career and mental health, he traded in his suit and tie for a shot at entrepreneurship. While there were a few rough years in between, he turned his spare bedroom podcasting hobby into a marketing agency servicing the biggest brands in law. He lives in Raleigh, North Carolina, with his delightful wife, darling daughters, and a proliferating collection of longboard skateboards.Connect with Robert:Website:https://lawpods.com/Social MediaLinkedIn Personal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertingallsLinkedIn Lawpods: https://www.linkedin.com/company/lawpodsFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawpodsInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawpodsGot a question about something you heard today? Have a great suggestion for a topic or know someone who should be a guest? Reach out to us:askcarl@carlspeaks.caIf you're ready to take the plunge and join the over 3 million people who have joined the podcast space, we'd love to hear your idea and help you get started! Book your Podcast Strategy Session today:https://podcastsolutionsmadesimple.com/get-started/Never miss an episode! Subscribe wherever you get your podcast by clicking here:https://podcastsolutionsmadesimple.buzzsprout.com/Follow us on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/company/podcast-solutions-made-simpleFollow us on Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/podcastsolutionsmadesimple/Follow us on Facebook:www.facebook.com/groups/podcastlaunchmadesimpleFollow us on Twitter:https://twitter.com/carlrichards72

An audio buffet-style sampling of the three Low-Key Legends guests from March. This episode features our top lessons and takeaways from each interview. Focusing on the fundamentals of running a design studio, pricing your work, and pushing past creative block. This episode offers a little taste of a much longer episode that you can dive into whenever you have time. Get a feel and vibe for each of the guests. Chapters: 0:00:42 Pricing Web Design Work with Filippo Cipriani 00:39:20 Creating a Successful Business with Rachael Yaeger 00:55:41 Pushing Past Creative Block with Mario Šimić

In this episode, we're tackling the often-taboo topic of money: how should you price your creative projects? We're breaking down the why's and how's of project pricing, and why hourly rates are the WRONG approach.We also discuss the very relatable experience of Producers asking for your availability, without project details, or even the rate they have for the project!? We'll share personal stories and strategies on how to handle these situations.Lastly, we're questioning the age-old idea: Is constant enjoyment of our work a realistic expectation? Or is it okay for work to feel like work sometimes? This episode is packed with insights, advice, and a healthy dose of reality that every creative professional can relate to.In this episode, we're discussing: The notion of continuous enjoyment, and do we need to be having fun all the time?Producers asking if we're available for a shoot, but not giving any details? WHY??Learning to gracefully say 'no' without jeopardizing relationshipsPricing methods and why pricing by the hour is WRONGSetting clear deadlines and milestones with clients, before shooting…and more!STAY UPDATED! Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lateinvoices/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClXUl1Pq1rfg3xjvyIDtUYQ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lateinvoices Website: https://lateinvoicespodcast.buzzsprout.com

This week, we used a puff of smoke to catch pricing magician Blair Enns performing his favourite trick; making RFPs disappear.   Founder of Win Without Pitching and Author of The Win Without Pitching Manifesto and Pricing Creativity, Blair is dead set on getting creative businesses to price their work properly, single-handedly saving those who sell ideas for a living from giving them away for nada.  We pulled a ton of topics out of a hat including his early years in account management and new business, pitching and RFPs, generalist vs specialist agencies, value-based pricing, why your agency should have a portfolio of pricing models, pricing creatively, how to raise your prices with current clients (and not p**s them off in the process), search consultants, hissing cockroaches and loads more.    ///// Follow Blair on Twitter and LinkedIn  Check out Blair's website  Get his books Pricing Creativity and The Win Without Pitching Manifesto Here's the 2Bobs podcast  And listen to Blair's new show 20% The Marketing Procurement Podcast  Strange Creatures: Pitches, Search Consultants, and Hissing Cockroaches by Blair Enns Consultative Selling: Beating The Odds by Tom Lewis  Thank you to everyone who has lent their ears and their brains for over 100 episodes of the Call To Action® podcast. It's a real privilege. Please do share and review the podcast to help more marketers feel better about marketing.     Timestamps (01:52) - Quick fire questions (03:58) - Account management as a gateway drug into ad land  (09:38) - Doing new business remotely in 2000 (13:45) - The real problem with pitching  (21:44) - Value based pricing  (24:22) - Does the blame lie with agencies or clients?  (27:11) - Why pricing is a prison cell in your own mind of your own making (31:53) - Pricing as a creative act  (37:25) - The importance of presenting more than one price (43:28) - Listener questions  (50:36) - 4 pertinent posers  Blair's book recommendations are:  $100M Offers by Alex Hormozi  The Boutique by Greg Alexander  The Business of Expertise by David C. Baker  /////

Kathie Jones joins the podcast to discuss lessons learned from selling to procurement years ago up to running procurement today. Blair Enns https://www.winwithoutpitching.com/ https://twitter.com/blairenns https://ca.linkedin.com/in/blairenns Leah Power https://theica.ca/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/institute-of-canadian-agencies https://www.linkedin.com/in/leah-power-she-her-3486998/ Kathie Jones https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathieconway148/ https://khoros.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/khoros/ Pricing Creativity https://www.winwithoutpitching.com/pricing-creativity/

Pricing your worth and your work. Most people don't want to consider that how you feel about yourself could be tied to how much you are charging. If you want to find the courage to charge more or stop undercutting yourself because you don't think you are worthy, this episode can offer some tools and resources you need. CFO Ben McAdam helps you to wrap your mind around your worth and work today in our pricing series for the Mental Money Podcast.    To get in contact with Ben, check out the following links:    Website  Twitter Facebook Linkedin   Book Recommendations From the Show    If you have any questions about something you heard or you want to work with me, directly e-mail me your questions or inquiries at mentalmoney.me@gmail.com. For Media Inquiries or Ad placement, please contact Nathalie at 1-888-773-5777 or mentalmoney.me@gmail.com. Disclaimer: All information contained within this audio is a reflection of the author's opinion in proximity to when the audio was produced. Business is an ever-changing organism, due to this notion, there can be changes to this podcast at any time based on new information. Also, the host's opinion may change as well. The host has done their due diligence to ensure that the information presented is presented with the most relevant information, but takes no responsibility for any changes that may be made. Again, these are opinions. You are more than welcome to cross-reference any information presented in this audio. Any missing information is not the responsibility of the host. Any results direct, indirect or consequential, or otherwise are not the responsibility of the host. The information is not to be taken as legal advice. If you are in need of legal advice please contact a qualified attorney.  

Many service providers, including CPAs, start out as generalists who take on every client who needs their services. With a broad focus and no perceived expertise, it's hard for them to provide enormous value that would justify high fees.  My guest today, Paul Klein, shares how he grew his consulting business by niching down to help an underserved market.  Paul is a business consultant and entrepreneur. From his days as 1980s hair band guitarist and lifelong entrepreneur to starting and scaling a successful SaaS company to consulting for some of the biggest brands including Target, Neiman Marcus, Starbucks, Holiday Inn, and other global brands, Paul helps consultants, freelancers, and solopreneurs price their services, stop undercharging in order to build 7 figure businesses. He is the co-founder of Bizable TV and is also the host of the Pricing Is Positioning podcast and the Rock Your Pricing online course and community.   Highlights: — “Instead of being a generalist, be a specialist. That's where I really thrived and became much more successful than I ever was in a day job.”  — “With residual or passive income, you create something once and it pays you over and over.” — “Niching down took us out of the commodity space to that expert space.”  — “Having three pillars of revenue in our business allowed us to ride out those highs and lows of the consulting business.”  — “The true definition of wealth is discretionary time.” ***Want one piece of business strategy delivered daily to your inbox?*** Subscribe here: https://www.shethinksbigcoaching.com/subscribe-main-list Connect with PAUL: Websites: https://www.paulklein.net/ http://Bizabletv.com Podcast: https://www.paulklein.net/podcast.html Email:   paul@paulklein.net Books mentioned: Pricing Creativity by Blair Enns Win Without Pitching Manifesto by Blair Enns https://www.winwithoutpitching.com/books/

What's the secret to creating value, scaling, and growing your business? In this conversation with entrepreneur and author Blair Enns, we learn it's not about doing more or better, and it may be about doing less.Discover why growing your business requires more than good habits. In this episode, I'm talking with Blair Enns from Win Without Pitching. Win Without Pitching is an organization that runs sales and new business development training programs for owners and employees of design firms, ad agencies, PR practices, and other creative businesses. A lot of what he talks about is also relevant for your business. Blair is the author of the Win Without Pitching Manifesto, (a book I designed through my branding agency, Aespire) and Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour (the second of Blair's books Aespire designed. I suppose you can say the agency is habit-forming).Listen to hear the life-changing lesson Blair learned when he says, "Some lessons take me so long to learn, like the idea that other people could do what I do."Find Blair Enns atWin Without Pitching http://wwp.tv/blog2Bobs Podcast: http://wwp.tv/podcastThe Win Without Pitching Manifesto

Today I have the five books that I most often recommend to my clients, because I want you to be able to benefit from the excellent writing that's out there, that can help you move forward more effectively in your business.  These 5 books are straightforward, boot-on-the-ground practical advice for ways to improve your business.  I hope you find something to enjoy that will contribute to the transformation of your business, and lead to you living a whole and beautiful life.   Here they are:   The Business of Expertise by David C. Baker https://www.amazon.com/Business-Expertise-Entrepreneurial-Experts-Convert/dp/1605440604 Expertise increases value, and value improves prices. Improved prices allows you to reduce workload, which helps you get off the so-called hamster wheel.  It starts with (differentiated) expertise.    $100 Million Offers by Alex Hormozi https://amazon.com/100M-Offers-People-Stupid-Saying/dp/1737475731/ Once you have your differentiated expertise and a clear position in the marketplace, it's time to learn how to package and title your services, in a way that's appealing. Then you make offers, observe your results, and learn from what sells.    Atomic Habits by James Clear https://www.amazon.com/Atomic-Habits-Proven-Build-Break/dp/0593189647/ Being overworked with a “handle what's most on fire” strategy is guaranteed to thwart progress.  Integrating more effective habits throughout your business and your day will improve your output.    The Automatic Customer by John Warrillow https://amazon.com/Automatic-Customer-Subscription-Warrillow-2015-02-05/dp/B01MY26IQ8/ Once you have your expertise and position honed, your offers dialed in, and your own habits on repeat, it's time to get your customers (clients) on repeat.  Single transaction has its place, but recurring is where it's at, and The Automatic Customer (as well as my interview with Mr Warrillow) will help you create your first subscription service.    Pricing Creativity by Blair Enns https://www.winwithoutpitching.com/pricing-creativity/ Now that you have your services packaged, it's time to price them right. Underpricing is like gravity: a powerful force that will keep your business grounded. If you want to reach escape velocity, smart pricing is your rocket fuel.    …………   ***Want one piece of business strategy delivered daily to your inbox?***   Subscribe here: https://www.shethinksbigcoaching.com/subscribe-main-list

Pricing creativity and applying the right negotiation tactics in the creative industry is not a simple task, and definitely a skill that is rarely taught. Eugene Chan talks about how to stop hourly billing and get higher paying projects by providing clients with true value that goes beyond the deliverables.

In today's episode of the Idea to Value podcast, we speak with Blair Enns, author of Pricing Creativity and founder of the Win Without Pitching manifesto. #pricing #creativity #sales #services See the full episode at https://wp.me/p6pllj-1G1 Topics covered in this episode: 00:01:30 - Blair's history in advertising and consulting 00:03:30 - The fastest way to make your creativity a commodity is to sell your time 00:06:00 - Pricing is a prison cell of your making in your own brain 00:08:00 - The importance of asking questions to determine value 00:12:30 - Why creative people hate the feeling of doing "Sales", and how to change this 00:17:30 - How to raise your prices for creative services 00:20:45 - Your idea of what you think the market will bear is usually wrong 00:22:30 - The importance of specialising to communicate your value by narrowing your focus Links mentioned in this episode: Book: Pricing Creativity: A guide to profit beyond the billable hour: https://www.winwithoutpitching.com/pricing-creativity/ Book: The Win Without Pitching Manifesto: https://amzn.to/3oeEs43 Win Without Pitching training: https://www.winwithoutpitching.com/ 2bobs podcast: https://2bobs.com/ Bonus: This episode was made possible by our premium innovation and creativity training. Take your innovation and creativity capabilities to the next level by investing in yourself now, at https://www.ideatovalue.com/all-access-pass-insider-secrets/ * Subscribe on iTunes to the Idea to Value Podcast: https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/idea-to-value-creativity-innovation/id1199964981?mt=2 * Subscribe on Spotify to the Idea to Value Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/4x1kANUSv7UJoCJ8GavUrN  * Subscribe on Stitcher to the Idea to Value Podcast: http://www.stitcher.com/s?fid=129437&refid=stpr * Subscribe on Google Podcasts to the Idea to Value Podcast: https://podcasts.google.com/?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9pZGVhdG92YWx1ZS5saWJzeW4uY29tL3Jzcw  Want to rapidly validate new ideas and innovative products and GROW your online business? These are the tools I actually use to run my online businesses (and you can too): * The best email management and campaigns system: ActiveCampaign (Free Trial) http://www.activecampaign.com/?_r=M17NLG2X  * Best value web hosting: BlueHost WordPress http://www.activecampaign.com/?_r=M17NLG2X  * Landing pages, Sales Pages and Lead collection: LeadPages (Free Trial) http://leadpages.pxf.io/c/1385771/390538/5673  * Sharing & List building: Sumo (Free) https://sumo.com/?src=partner_ideatovalue  * Payments, Shopping Cart, affiliate management and Upsell generator: ThriveCart https://improvides--checkout.thrivecart.com/thrivecart-standard-account/  * Video Webinars for sales: WebinarJam and Everwebinar ($1 Trial) https://nickskillicorn.krtra.com/t/lwIBaKzMP1oQ  * Membership for protecting content: Membermouse (Free Trial) http://affiliates.membermouse.com/idevaffiliate.php?id=735  * eLearning System for students: WP Courseware https://flyplugins.com/?fly=293  * Video Editing: Techsmith Camtasia http://techsmith.z6rjha.net/vvGPv  I have used all of the above products myself to build IdeatoValue and Improvides, which is why I can confidently recommend them. I may also receive affiliate payments for any business I bring to them using the links above. Copyright https://www.ideatovalue.com

In episode #1876, Neil and Eric talk about capturing value when you are determining your prices. Many people undercharge for their services, despite this being one of the biggest levers out there. Tune in to hear how you can charge what you're worth.  TIME-STAMPED SHOW NOTES: [00:25] Today's topic: How to Capture the Most Value When Pricing [00:26] Pricing is a big lever in your business. [00:43] A resource you can use to help you find the right price for your service. [01:27] Some questions from the book, Pricing Creativity. [02:30] An example of how you can capture more value. [03:00] Neil's strategy of charging less on the front-end [03:50] Pay for performance: one of the best ways to capture value. [04:52] That's it for today!  [04:52] To stay updated with events and learn more about our mastermind, go to the Marketing School site for more information or call us on 310-349-3785!   Links Mentioned in Today's Episode:   Price Intelligently Pricing Creativity   Leave Some Feedback:     What should we talk about next? Please let us know in the comments below Did you enjoy this episode? If so, please leave a short review.     Connect with Us:    Neilpatel.com Quick Sprout  Growth Everywhere Single Grain Twitter @neilpatel  Twitter @ericosiu

Blair Enns (author of Win Without Pitching and Pricing Creativity) joins Andy to discuss the challenges that creatives have when it comes to business. How our emotional attachment to work can hinder financial success and why we shy away from the grown-up stuff. We also discuss the pro's and con's of unpaid internships and whether mental health issues are naturally more present in creatives. Links: Rocket Fuel book Win without pitching Mentally-Healthy research Never Not Creative Thank to Streamtime for all their support – project management software for healthier creative businesses. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/nevernotcreative/message

With a talent for creating special events that blossomed while working for her dad's car stereo shop, Nicole Mahoney got her start in marketing at Frontier Field in Rochester and she began serving as the executive director of the internationally known Lilac Festival. Later on, Nicole headed the Canandaigua, New York Business Improvement District while also performing projects for the tourism promotion agency Visit Rochester. In 2009, Nicole founded Break the Ice Media, with more than 20 years of experience in tourism marketing. She now hosts “Destination on the Left”, a highly successful tourism marketing podcast. As a business owner, Nicole knows what it takes to be successful. She founded BTI to help businesses tell their brand story through public relations, digital and traditional channels. She has the ability to uncover unique marketing opportunities and develop marketing and public relations initiatives that help clients build long-term success. What you'll learn about in this episode: How Nicole founded her marketing agency, Break The Ice Media, and how she specializes in the travel, tourism, and hospitality industry Why the industry at large is experiencing a workforce shortage, and how it is impacting businesses during the global pandemic How Nicole built a team that is as passionate about helping businesses in their industry as she is, and why industry collaboration is one of Nicole's main focuses How launching the Destination on the Left podcast helped Nicole clarify her focus and led her to doing a collaboration research study to be helpful to her audience Why Nicole set out to answer the question “what makes collaborations work or fail in the travel, tourism, and hospitality industry?” in her research How Nicole used her team, her podcast, and her network of connections in the industry as the foundation of her three-month collaboration research project What results Nicole and her research partner Susan Baier were able to discover through their research, and what content Nicole was able to develop based on the survey How Nicole determined her two-pronged webinar strategy with separate private client and public-facing webinar offerings How Nicole uses the research results as cornerstone content and then slices and dices it into many different smaller pieces of cobblestone content How planting her flag as the authority on travel, tourism, and hospitality industry collaboration has created new opportunities for Nicole's agency Resources: Email: nicole@breaktheicemedia.com Destination on the Left Podcast: https://breaktheicemedia.com/podcast/ Website: www.destinationontheleft.com/summit Website: https://breaktheicemedia.com/ LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/nicolemahoney/ LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/company/break-the-ice-media/about/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/BreakTheIceMedia/ Twitter: @Break_TheIce Additional Resources: Edelman's 2020 Trust Barometer Special Report “Trust and the Coronavirus”: https://www.edelman.com/research/2020-edelman-trust-barometer-special-report-coronavirus-and-trust Pricing Creativity by Blair Enns: www.winwithoutpitching.com/pricing-creativity/ Listen to episode 999 of the Onward Nation podcast featuring Brett Gilliland: https://predictiveroi.com/podcasts/brett-gilliland-4/ Listen to episode 735 of the Onward Nation podcast featuring Clate Mask: https://predictiveroi.com/podcasts/clate-mask/ Listen to episode 35 of the Elite Entrepreneurs podcast featuring Brett Gilliland and Clate Mask: https://growwithelite.com/podcasts/solocast-8/

Raphael Bender believes everyone deserves the opportunity to transform into a better version of themselves. His main strength as a teacher and movement professional is the ability to distill complex research findings into a simple, science-based approach to help people move fearlessly, thoughtlessly, and painlessly. He LOVES running, weights, cycling, and Contrology. Raph holds a Master's degree in Clinical Exercise Physiology (Rehabilitation), a Bachelor's degree in Exercise and Sports Science, Diploma of Pilates Movement Therapy, and STOTT PILATES full certification. What you'll learn about in this episode: How Breathe Education has grown rapidly in just five years, and how Raph and his team plan to achieve their powerful two-year revenue goal of a staggering $50 million How Raph navigated a careful strategic pivot to adapt to the realities of the global pandemic, and how this has allowed them to outpace their less nimble competitors How Raph learned key leadership skills at each stage of business growth, and he discusses which skills a leader needs to develop to push through their challenges Raph outlines an exercise where you measure your work as $10/hr., $100/hr., $1k/hr., $10k/hr., and $100k/hr. activities to help you identify priorities What Breathe Education looked like early on, and how intentionality and strategy over the last six years have helped the team enter the pandemic prepared for its challenges Why Raph sees marketing and sales as key leadership skills, and why he believes business owners should learn to “think like a marketer and salesperson” Why the skills and systems you developed in the “hustle and grind” of getting to $1 million in revenue aren't necessarily the same ones that will get you to $5 million Why it is important to show people how your business can help them by actually helping them, and how this can transform your business Why Raph believes that being generous with your knowledge can be a powerful way to attract new customers by becoming a trusted resource Resources: Free, Live Q&A: Stop Faking It & Really Know Your Stuff: https://breathe-education.com/pilates_elephants-register/ Podcast: https://breathe-education.com/podcast/ Website: https://breathe-education.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/raphael-bender-8b436a1a/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/breathe-education/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the_raphaelbender Additional Resources: Edelman's 2020 Trust Barometer Special Report “Trust and the Coronavirus”: https://www.edelman.com/research/2020-edelman-trust-barometer-special-report-coronavirus-and-trust Pricing Creativity by Blair Enns: www.winwithoutpitching.com/pricing-creativity/ Listen to episode 999 of the Onward Nation podcast featuring Brett Gilliland: https://predictiveroi.com/podcasts/brett-gilliland-4/ Listen to episode 735 of the Onward Nation podcast featuring Clate Mask: https://predictiveroi.com/podcasts/clate-mask/ Listen to episode 35 of the Elite Entrepreneurs podcast featuring Brett Gilliland and Clate Mask: https://growwithelite.com/podcasts/solocast-8/

In this week's episode, Christine J. Feehan and Gabbi Hall discuss how to value your work and price creativity. **Host Note: While recording the episode, we experienced sound quality issues with Gabbi's microphone. We did our best to clean it up and deliver another kick-ass episode because we believe in the content, but the overall quality does not meet our personal standards. Don't worry, Gabbi already has a new mic on the way.** Hear insights from our experiences as well as research to help you on your journey to get what you deserve for your creative work. Thoughts? Questions? Feedback? Find us on Instagram: @cjfeehan and @heregoesgabbi

If you’ve followed us for a while, then you’ve probably heard the name Blair Enns a few times. Blair is a business consultant, speaker and author of the acclaimed book, The Win Without Pitching Manifesto. And if you were to ask Chris Do what one book you should read is, it would be that one. We’ve had Blair on the show before, but we wanted to share this deep dive livestream with you because it’s filled with invaluable information. The insights that Blair shares and the perspective he offers is unmatched. You can actually hear Chris’s giddiness during their conversation. They cover a lot of ground in this talk. Discussing things like specializing vs generalizing, how to measure the value you bring to the table, pricing the client not the job and, of course, value based pricing. But the best part is that these are universal business concepts. You’ll find them everywhere outside of the creative industry, but Blair does a fantastic job of contextualizing them for people like us—the creative professional. We suggest listening to the episode once, all the way through. Then on another day, listen to it again. But this time, take notes. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Pricing your work - especially Creative Work - can be incredibly difficult. Which method do I use? Hourly? Day rates? Cost Plus? What amount should I markup my costs? Are you stressed about projects that aren't profitable, too little profit to actually grow your business? Are you tired of feeling like you're just a vendor who's there to take orders from your client? Frustrated that your client thinks they know what's best for them more than you do? Let's talk about the Value Mindset before we go all-in with Value-Based Pricing. What does it mean to think about the value your work creates for your clients and their business rather than the time + materials it takes to make a video for your client? How can thinking based on value lead you to greater profits and happier clients? If you've even touched on the world of Value-Based Pricing you need to know these FIVE advocates for the practice: Blair Enns | The Win Without Pitching Manifesto & Pricing Creativity | https://www.winwithoutpitching.com Chris Do | The Futur | https://thefutur.com Jonathan Stark | Ditching Hourly | https://jonathanstark.com Marcus Rideout | Video Warriors | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw7uK6zDkqZwroM2rLzNtcQ Joel Pilger | RevThink | http://revthink.com FOLLOW MIDLAND: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/MidlandPictures Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/midlandpictures Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MidlandPictures Website: https://www.midlandpictures.com Podcast: https://anchor.fm/midlandpictures FOLLOW MATTHEW: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/matthewtobrien Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/matthewtobrien

Blair Enns is the Author of Win Without Pitching and Pricing Creativity. Great books about specialization, positioning and pricing for creative forms; but totally adaptable to accounting and any service or knowledge-based business. Check out Blair's company: https://www.winwithoutpitching.com/ And BUY his BOOK: https://amzn.to/2TXI0rU

It is possible to earn the respect of clients and trades while charging what you’re worth. Possible, but rarely easy. Pricing for Creativity author, Blair Enns and Kimberley Seldon discuss the merits of value-based pricing, while anticipating some of the largest obstacles in this two-part conversation. In this episode we learn: - the value we pass on as designer’s is (in part) a feeling—the client feels elated when the project is complete - the biggest asset of value-based fee model is extraordinary profits - profitability is a test you must pass - act like a professional, lead the client through the project Learn more to grow your interior design business at: https://businessofdesign.com/podcasts

It is possible to earn the respect of clients and trades while charging what you’re worth. Possible, but rarely easy. Pricing for Creativity author, Blair Enns and Kimberley Seldon discuss the merits of value-based pricing, while anticipating some of the largest obstacles in this two-part conversation. In this episode we learn: - make sure your brand is not positioned as a commodity - a client’s real power is hiring an alternative to you - a designer’s real power stems from self-esteem - always rely on policy, rather than feeling or inclination Learn more to grow your business at https://businessofdesign.com/podcasts

After ten years of making and losing money as a creative, I've learned some thangs. This episode breaks down some of the mindset stuff that gets in the way of pricing what we're worth. You are enough. Keep making stuff and enjoy the process. This is the Bonus Footage podcast Let's make stuff. http://www.boyder.co (Free Download) "How to sell your creativity" at digital.boyder.co

We reference a book in this episode that is Nilesh's favorite book on pricing creative services, which is a book that Zach hasn't read but loves because Nilesh talks about it every day.Pricing Creativity by Blair Enns: https://www.winwithoutpitching.com/pricing-creativity/Music by Joakim Karud http://youtube.com/joakimkarud

Connect with Blair Enns: https://www.winwithoutpitching.com https://www.winwithoutpitching.com/pricing-creativity/ https://2bobs.com/ Referenced in this episode: Ditching Hourly Podcast (Jonathan Stark) https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/ditching-hourly/id1165456720 https://curioelectro.com/ Sponsored by: Ultra Luxe Linens https://www.ultraluxelinens.com/ Real Talk Rant By: http://jaclynharperdesigns.com/ Connect with Real Talk Design: https://michellebinette.com/realtalk (real short tips and inspiration in your inbox) https://www.facebook.com/groups/realtalkdesign/ https://www.instagram.com/realtalkdesign.podcast/ https://www.instagram.com/michellebinette.design/ https://michellebinette.com/ https://www.facebook.com/michellebinette.design/ Email Real Talk Rants to: admin@michellebinette.com

Why you have to check out Today’s podcast:  Learn the rules and tactics to charge more for new work and run a more profitable business  Know the pricing training his company offers to creative companies and how it benefits them  Discover and learn the four conversations in a sale and how to successfully apply it to boost your sales conversation and presentation    Blair Enns is the author of The Win Without Pitching Manifesto and Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour. He co-hosts, along with David C. Baker, and the podcast 2Bobs: Conversations on the Art of Creative Entrepreneurship. Based on the remote mountain village of Kaslo, British Columbia, Canada, Blair lectures throughout the world on how creative professionals can win more business at higher prices and lower cost of sale.  In this episode, Blair shares the ups and downs of the business side of creativity. He takes us into the pages of his books sharing the principles behind pricing creativity, sales conversation and winning without pitching. He also deep dives into the rules and tactics to help creative professionals charge more for work and how to train their clients to a value-based pricing rather than hourly billable hours.    “I cannot think of a more valuable skill in all of business than the ability to conduct a value conversation which is to essentially  find out what the client or the customer wants, and what they would  be  willing to pay if you could help create that  value ”  – Blair Enns  Topics Covered:  02:31 – How Blair got into pricing  02:59 – What his company does and the type of professionals they serve   05:33 – Citing examples of creative companies  06:42 – Talking about the training on pricing his company also offers   07:38 – Blair explains putting a stake in the ground which is detailed in his book - The Win Without Pitching Manifesto  10:09 – Two most essential lessons for creative firms  12:52 – How they train their clients to a value-based pricing  15:00 – The four-step framework and four-step pricing guidance discussed in his book Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour  19:05 – The four conversations in the sale  26:37 – Mark asks for feedback on the ways they apply value conversations in product companies  29:35 – Advice for product managers  32:05 – Blair explains why and how he priced his book that much  34:56 – A piece of pricing advice that would impact the business of the listeners    Key Takeaways:    “You need to put a stake in the ground. And the mistake that people make is that stake or that claim of expertise is too broad in terms of both the discipline on the market. It should be narrow enough in a way that allows you to be compelling and meaningfully different.” – Blair Enns    “A customized service means you have a small number of clients at any one time.” – Blair Enns    “If you can help this client create the value that you've uncovered, then your idea of fair compensation for yourself really needs to transcend the idea of your inputs or how long it's taken you to do to help create that value.” – Blair Enns    “The goal of value-based pricing is to create an organization filled with people like that who are laser-focused on the client and how they can help create value for the client.” – Blair Enns    “Options with a high anchor. If you just always put forward options, three options and lead with the most expensive one. Your average settled price will go up, I promise you.” – Blair Enns      Resources Mentioned:  Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour  The Win Without Pitching Manifesto    Connect with Blair Enns:  winwithoutpitching.com  LinkedIn  Twitter    Connect with Mark Stiving  Email: mark@impactpricing.com  LinkedIn  Twitter   

Today’s guest is Blair Enns. Blair is the founder and CEO of Win Without Pitching, a sales training organization for creative professionals. Blair is also the author of two books, The Win Without Pitching Manifesto and Pricing Creativity.

Pricing creative work is like a dagger made of ice for many professionals, sending chills down our spine, keeping us awake at night. Much industry talk of late has made it hard to ignore that independent professional visual communicators are underselling their talents and earning too little as a result. Who could blame them? There are many variables to consider, not to mention individual circumstances when it comes to putting a number of creativity. That's where Blair Enns comes in. Blair's book, Pricing Creativity: Profit Beyond the Billable Hour has been a success and he breaks down the topic in expert style. Blair explains why a conversation of value is key, why we should price the client and not the work and explains why we should never post definitive prices on our websites. Get your thoughts and pricing experiences over to @arrestallmimics on social media. Episode 133 is supported by http://illustrationweb.com, http://heartinternet.co.uk, http://foilco.co.uk and http://theaoi.com https://www.winwithoutpitching.com/ https://www.instagram.com/winwithoutpitching/ https://twitter.com/blairenns

This week I am excited to bring you my first podcast interview with guest Blair Enns, Founder, of Win Without Pitching and author of Pricing Creativity: A Guide To Profit Beyond The Billable Hour. If Blair’s name sounds familiar to you, it may be because I’ve talked about him in some of my past episodes. I'm just so honored that he was able to be my first guest because he is an inspiration to me and the work I do. In fact, his book, Pricing Creativity, was the inspiration for the name of this podcast! In addition to being an author and entrepreneur, Blair co-hosts the podcast 2Bobs, Conversations On The Art of Creative Entrepreneurship, with David C. Baker. He also lectures throughout the world on how creative professionals can win more business at higher prices and lower cost of sale. Sound familiar? In this episode, Blair and I discuss value-based pricing, including the purpose and benefit of using this pricing strategy. Plus, we talk about some ways to implement value-based pricing in your business. In this episode, you’ll hear: How and why Blair decided to scale his business and his strategy behind the pricing of his products and services His endeavor into learning about value-based pricing and applying the methods he learned to his own business and clientele Blair describes the three main pricing options What value-based pricing is and how to implement it in your business The purpose of value-based pricing The importance of being client-centric and not focused on your solutions. Connect with Blair: Win Without Pitching - Blair Enns Pricing Creativity: A Guide To Profit Beyond The Billable Hour The Win Without Pitching Manifesto 2Bobs Podcast With David C Baker and Blair Enns 2-Day Win Without Pitching Workshop April 15th-16th, Chicago, IL LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/win-without-pitching/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/winwithoutpitching/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/winwithoutpitching/ Twitter - https://twitter.com/blairenns   Connect with Paul: The Business of Consulting Workshop - Sacramento The Product Pricing Roadmap Web: www.paulklein.net LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulkleintv/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/paulkleintv Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/paulkleinTV/ Twitter - https://twitter.com/PaulKleinTV YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoQRkgXR4ClPAub12lXgPwg

What's Up, Creative Hustlers! Steven & Melissa here. Today, we're talking with Blair Enns who is on a mission to change the way creative services are bought and sold the world over. He offers sales training and coaching for creative professionals and shares this wisdom in his two books the Win Without Pitching Manifesto and his most recent work, Pricing Creativity.   [00:00] This episode is brought to you by Latin & Code, your interim CMOs. [00:43] This interview is sponsored by The Agency Guy. If you're not sure what to do with your marketing budget, you need this support. [01:35] Why Blair is a Creative Hustler in 60 seconds or less. [03:13] Blair's wakeup call to change his mindset on pitches. [04:10] There's a gulf between how Creatives sell, and how everyone else does. [04:41] Why designers and creatives are illogical. [05:30] Creative people take it personally, and they don't build niche businesses. [06:10] A creative person's need for variety is at odds with their businesses need for stability. [07:35] You focus so you can build deep expertise. [08:11] If you have the expertise, you have power in buy/sell interaction. [08:26] Gain power then leverage power. [09:16] Challenge the client's assumptions, and get them to hire a firm like yours. [09:34] What about the one-person shops who feel like they have to say YES? [10:08] There are two levels of success: Level one is Validation and level two is Freedom. [11:09] Saying no to almost everything. [13:15] What is Pricing Creativity all about? [14:54] What happened in the gap between books? [17:00] Pricing is not just math. It's deep and broad. [17:30] Blair's book is aimed at those who won't read the boring pricing books. [19:35] What people are buying and why. [20:14] What Blair is looking forward to in 2019. [21:30] Leading by example in the Ad Agency space. [22:36] Ad Agency will say anything to get in the room and win the business. [23:46] Be kind but ruthlessly honest. [25:39] If you're going to say no, explain the reason why. [26:24] You can fake some things early on in your business until you have it. [28:20] If you don't set expectations, you get taken advantage of. [29:28] There are only two positions with the client, you can be a vendor or expert practitioner. [30:22] Vendors follow the client's lead, but experts ask “what do we do next?” [30:51] The sale is the sample, you take the lead and ask the client to follow. [31:30] It's better to not win the business as a vendor. [32:26] Blair would have any coffee with Elon Musk because no one is more of a hustler. [34:04] That's a wrap, Creative Hustlers. [34:15] Where Blair lives on the internet. [34:46] Don't forget to follow us on TheCreativeHustler.com and LatinAndCode.com, and please leave a review on iTunes and Sticher. [34:57] Peace Out! [35:03] Melissa's Moment of Hustle Contact with Blair Enns: https://twitter.com/blairenns https://www.winwithoutpitching.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/blairenns/ Win Without Pitching Manifesto Pricing Creativity

Blair offers seven mindsets that any seller of expertise needs to master so that they can behave like the expert in the sales cycle.   Links "The Jedi Mindset" by Blair Enns McClelland's Human Motivation Theory, also known as Three Needs Theory, Acquired Needs Theory, Motivational Needs Theory, and Learned Needs Theory   Transcript DAVID C. BAKER: Good morning, Blair. You are in London. I'm in Nashville. BLAIR ENNS: Yeah, it's my afternoon, and it's your seven AM. DAVID: And don't tell me you've gotten a lot more done today already, because that's just a time change thing. Has nothing to do with productivity. Today we're going to talk about the seven masteries of the rainmaker, choke, choke. BLAIR: You're choking on the word rainmaker, are you? DAVID: Well, a little bit. I'm also, it's like seven. How come it's not six or eight? Seven sounds quite biblically, almost like we need to take an offering at the end of this or something. BLAIR: Let's do that. DAVID: I'm more choking on the idea of the rainmaker. Do you hear that term much anymore? I don't really hear it. We know what it means, though. BLAIR: No, but there was a time when you heard it often. In fact, if an agency were running an ad looking for a new business person, probably a health percentage of those ads would have the title rainmaker wanted. DAVID: Yeah. BLAIR: I've never liked the term rainmaker. It's a little bit funny that an agency principal would be looking for an individual who essentially has magical powers, the ability to make it rain. DAVID: Right. It's dry. The crops are going to die. All we can do is just rely on magic. So let's call on the rainmaker. We have no idea how he ... it was always a he back in those days, but we don't know how he or she does it, but this is our last resort. BLAIR: We have no positioning. We have no leads. We have no prospects. We have no formalized new business process. You absolutely need somebody who can make it rain, yeah. So I've kind of used that term tongue in cheek, but the idea of seven masteries, it really stems from the notion of mindset. Because you can master behaviors. You can master all kinds of things. And when I originally wrote about this a few years ago, I had come home to the idea that I was teaching people sales process and people were learning, so they were onboarding and understanding what it is that they knew to do in specific situations, but yet, they still couldn't bring themselves to do it. BLAIR: So I kind of went deep into the subject and realized well, the things that I'm asking them to do, because my approach, the Win Without Pitching approach to selling to new businesses is a little bit contrary to the conventional way it's done in the creative profession. So the things that I was asking them to do were contrary to their overall general pattern of behavior. And then you ask yourself, well, what sets somebody's general pattern of behavior, and the answer is it's really the thoughts in their head, the mindset. BLAIR: So I kind of arrived at this model, this idea of the seven masteries of the rainmaker. These are the seven things that are concepts that an individual needs to master in order to put themselves in the mindset, the mindset of the expert. I sometimes refer to it as the Jedi mindset, so they master those concepts. So they're in the proper mindset. Then they can begin to behave, generally speaking, across the pattern of general behavior, they can begin to behave like the expert, and then they can start to take onboard these very specific things that we teach client does x, you do y. BLAIR: If you learn those specific points of sales process, what to do in the sale, in certain situations, but you're not already operating or behaving like the expert, then they're not going to work. So this whole idea was about getting to somebody's mindset. DAVID: Okay, so we're going to go through the seven, but before we do that, let's assume that I want to embrace this way of thinking. What specifically, almost mechanically, are you suggesting I'm going to do with these seven things? Do I just write them down, and I chant them to myself? No, you're not talking about that. It's more I analyze my behavior against this list. What am I going to do with this after we get through going through the seven? BLAIR: As I walk you through the seven, you'll think about where you are on that spectrum, and in the first mastery, just ask yourself, hey, are you mastering this now, or do you have some homework to do? And then I am going to get you to chant something funnily enough. DAVID: Good luck with that. BLAIR: After we get through four of the ... I think I said to you, this is either going to be really fun, or it's going to be a complete disaster. DAVID: Right, yeah. BLAIR: So we'll just see how it goes. As I explain the mastery, you just ask yourself, well, is this something I have mastered, or do I have some homework to do? And then once we get through four, the first four, which I consider to be the foundational masteries, then I'll actually talk about stringing them all together in a little saying or a mantra that you can say to yourself, and I don't mean to say that you're like Buddhist guru here or something. DAVID: As you laugh and talk about that, right. BLAIR: We're going to get you to say it out loud and then you'll see that when you do this properly, this becomes the conversation that you're having yourself with, and it sets you up to go into a situation where you're behaving properly. And even if you don't remember the specific things I tell you that you should be doing in the situation, it won't really matter, because you'll be thinking the right things. Therefore, your tendency will be to behave appropriately. You will behave like the expert. And then you can forget all of the nuance, and you'll still probably do pretty good. DAVID: Okay. All right. So let's dive in then. The first one is focus, right? So talk about that. BLAIR: Yeah, so mastering focus, it begins with the subject of focus. When you go in and do a total business review with a firm, I don't know this for certain, but I would expect that one of the very first things that you look at is the firm's positioning. Once you do an assessment of where the firm is and how they need to improve, I suspect that's kind of the foundation of where you start, or one of them. It certainly is in my business. DAVID: Yeah. In fact, I'm doing one today, yesterday and today. And as I was driving to where I'm talking with you now, I was just thinking, you know, I love this work. There's so much science and art around positioning, and it sets the stage for everything, right? How can you have all these other conversations without that? And that's what you mean focus, power in the sell comes from deep expertise, which comes out of that focus. DAVID: So when somebody's listening to this first one, and they're thinking, okay, do I still have homework to do, that question is is my firm focused enough to give me power or leverage in that relationship. BLAIR: Yeah, are you focused, or are you the individual benefiting from a focused firm. And the benefit of focus is when the firm narrows its focus in terms of the types of problems it solves or the types of clients it works for, usually a combination of those two, when it narrows its focus, it allows the firm to build a deeper expertise. So if you're an agency principal, and you have a dedicated new business development person, just ask yourself, are you arming this person with the benefit of focus. So we're going to build a four statement mantra. BLAIR: And the first statement is I am the expert. I am the prize. And that comes from this notion, this idea that I see myself as the expert practitioner in the relationship and not a vendor. I have some power in the relationship because of the depth of my expertise. Therefore I have a sense of being in control, but this idea that I am the prize, I am the prize to be won. I and the firm, we are the prize to be won in the relationship. And it's not the client is the prize that I am trying to win. BLAIR: So again, that's a mindset thing. Do you see yourself as this deep expert and representing a firm that has deep expertise that is desirable to the client, and do you see yourself and the firm as the prize to be won in the relationship? DAVID: That is so powerful, even though the words are so simple. It's the opposite of being a supplicant. It's not an arrogance, though. It's more of a quiet confidence that I've seen this before, and I'm eager to help, but we should talk about whether this is a right fit. I don't have to have this. I keep thinking of all these statements that emerge from what you were just talking about on the focus side. Even though we're kind of skipping, we could unpack this notion for weeks. We could talk for weeks, just about what focus means. But that's how it all starts. I love the fact that ... obviously, it has to be on this list, but I love the fact that it's also the first one. DAVID: So I am the expert. I am the prize. So that's focus. Second would be purpose. So talk about what that means, because we're still talking about very foundational things. How does purpose relate to this as a second one? BLAIR: Yeah. So after you master focus, you build deep expertise. The second, master a sense of purpose. And by purpose, I mean kind of a higher mission or calling. So most well-positioned firms can express their positioning in some fairly standard, almost formulaic language, and I don't mean to denigrate the language by calling it formulaic. I think first, you actually have to express your positioning in a formulaic language before you get creative with the language. BLAIR: So most specialized firms can say we're experts at helping this type of client solve this type of problem, or this discipline for this market. And that's just the beginning. Once you have that nailed, you want to go off in search of a higher purpose. Now, what purpose does for you in the sale is it gives you moral authority. It gives you the moral authority because you're driven, not to sell something to the person sitting across the table from you, and you're driven, not to help them sell things to their client. By tapping into purpose, you're tapping into something that's bigger than you, and even bigger than your client. And that gives you some moral authority in the sale. BLAIR: I'll give you an example in my own business. So Win Without Pitching, I can express our positioning as sales training for creative professionals. So the discipline is sales training. Creative professionals is the market. But my mission based positioning is we are on a mission to change the way creative services are bought and sold the world over. So there are different reasons. It starts to get into this Simon Sinek, tapping into your why thing. But there are certain moments when I will say that statement to myself, or if I'm being introduced to give a speech, I'll hand that language to the person who's introducing me, and that helps me get through maybe a slightly anxious moment and tap into something bigger than what I'm trying to accomplish in the moment. BLAIR: And when you're thinking bigger, when you're thinking past the transaction that's in front of you, and you're thinking past even what your client's objective is, to something even bigger than that, that steals you, gives you this moral authority, it contributes to your confidence, and it allows you to kind of ... gives you more ... I don't want to go back to the power word, but more confidence to navigate through the situation, through the sale, acting like the expert. DAVID: Yeah, and what I'm going to say next, I don't want it to take us too much off track, but I couldn't help but thinking of something as you were talking through this. Part of what we're doing at the beginning of a transaction like this or a possible transaction, or relationship, I guess would be a better way to say it, is to gather some control in that relationship, set ourselves up for that, not, though, so that we can misuse the power, but to use it for the benefit of the client, and sometimes it looks like a mistake. It looks like a power trip. It doesn't make sense sometimes from the outside. It's like if you saw somebody holding a child down, and it was through a glass window, and it looked cruel, and then the next thing you saw is that they were giving the child a shot, or they were dressing a wound or something like that. So we're doing something where we're exerting control to help the client, not to abuse the client. And we're reminding ourselves of that during this purpose discussion. DAVID: I love the example of getting up on stage, picture you've traveled a long time, you're tired, maybe something has happened that's shaking your confidence just a little bit. And you say this to yourself that I am on a mission to help. I guess that's the second phrase here that we're talking about. The first one, I am the expert, I am the prize. The second one, around purposes, I am on a mission to help. All of a sudden, it settles everything down. It reminds us why we're here and what we're trying to do. BLAIR: Yeah, well said. DAVID: So the third one is leadership. This is also a foundational statement. These first four are very foundational. So leadership is the third one. BLAIR: Yeah, let me just build where we are so far. So focus, I am the expert, I am the prize. Purpose, I am on a mission to help. And leadership, the line that goes with that is I can only do that if you let me lead. The idea of mastering leadership speaks to the notion that the sale is the sample of the engagement. So for you to do your best work in the engagement, you need to be able to lead. I use the word power, and I tend to overuse it, and as you point out, I don't mean power for the sake of power. I don't mean overusing it, but I mean, the client letting you assume the expert practitioner position and lead them through the engagement, rather than them relegating you to the vendor position and having them drag you through the engagement or dictate to you how the engagement is going to work. BLAIR: You're being hired to help solve a problem or capitalize on an opportunity. And for you to do your best work, you need to be allowed to lead in the engagement. Now, if you're not leading in the sale, then you won't be allowed to lead in the engagement, because the roles in the relationship are established well before the engagement begins. They're established in the sale. That's why you need to behave like the expert. You need to behave appropriately. BLAIR: So this third mastery of leadership is simply recognizing that for you to do your best work in the engagement, you need to be allowed to lead the client. Therefore, it's your job or a requirement that you assume the leadership position in the sale before you're hired. Again, I refer to the battle for leadership or power or control as the polite battle for control. And it should never feel to the client like you're dominating them or lording anything over them. They should feel the way it feels to you when you're hiring an expert practitioner yourself. They're calm, they're collected. They're clearly in control of where things are going or what the appropriate next steps should be. BLAIR: But they're also quite consultative with you, and they make you feel like you have input and you're not being dragged along. So that's the third mastery is leadership. DAVID: I can't help but think about the notion of process as well, because many clients of the folks that are listening to this podcast, those clients are sometimes going to question the process you want to take them through, and it's pretty important to not only have a reason for the process, but to also stick to your process as the expert. Now, if it's not a good process, you don't need to stick to it. I guess that was obvious. BLAIR: It's funny. I was thinking that, too. I'm sure you've seen this, too. There are a lot of agencies out there that kind of manufacture this, I'll call it process, the Canadian version. They manufacture it, and they lead their clients through it, and I come along, or you as a consultant come along and look in and go oh, it feels a little bit hollow and empty, and it's needlessly long, and it's not as fruitful as the client might think. So I think we can laugh about it, but there's actually some fairly hollow processes out there. DAVID: Right. But assuming that it's a good process and it really is a core part of how you're going to lead the client, then this begins to be a part of how you conduct this conversation. It's like you've hired me as an expert. The way I've done this in the past many, many times is to follow this process. I don't mean the hollow process. I mean the good process. It's allowed me to find the truth more reliably and more quickly. And that's a part of leadership. Leadership is not just the advice I'm giving a client. Leadership is also the process that we go through together to arrive at that advice. That's more the point. So focus, purpose, leadership. And the fourth one is detachment.   DAVID: Let me go through and repeat these phrases again. So on focus, we have I am the expert, I am the prize. On purpose, I am on a mission to help. On leadership, I can only do that if you help me lead. And then third is detachment so walk us through that. BLAIR: Yeah. Fourth is detachment, and the line that goes with it is all will not follow, and that's okay. There's really two things you want to master about detachment. First of all, you want to detach from the outcome. So we're talking about the mindset you get into right before you go into the sales interaction. And you layer in all these masteries, focus, purpose, leadership, and this idea of leadership, I'm going into the exchange, and one of the things I'm looking for is I'm looking to take the lead, and I'm looking to see if you will let me take the lead. Do you recognize me as an expert, and are you willing to let me lead in the engagement? If you are, you'll let me lead at least a little bit in the sale. And the fourth mastery here, detachment is letting go of the fact of well, if they don't, that's okay. BLAIR: Your business is bigger than any single one interaction or any single one opportunity. You are this focused expert. The idea is if this person or this client or account doesn't come with you, if they don't let you lead, if they don't hire you, et cetera, that's okay. So you detach from the outcome. That's number one. You focus on the mindset and the behavior, and you detach from the outcome. So again, if you imagine when you hire or work with other professionals in your life, if you end up saying to a lawyer or accountant or solicitor or whoever the most vaunted expert is in your life, if you decide kind of not to go with them, they're not pleading for you to please, please, please give me your business. Because they're this recognized expert who have, you imagine that they have all kinds of opportunities available to them beyond you. BLAIR: And that's essentially what you should be thinking to yourself and then communicating to your client, and just let go of the outcome. So that's the first point on detachment is just generally focus on the mindset, focus on the pattern of behavior, and let go of the outcome. Don't be tied to the fact that this person absolutely must buy from you. BLAIR: There's a lot rolled up in this idea. The idea of not over investing in the sale is tied to it. It's easier to detach when you haven't over invested in the sale. But the second part of detachment is each of us personally tends to have something, and it's usually one recurring thing that we want from the other person in the sale. BLAIR: And I'll go back to this model of motivation known as McClelland's needs theory of motivation or the three needs theory that says people are motivated primarily by one of three different things. It's the need to win versus others, the need to orchestrate others, and the need to connect with others. So if you're a high competitive drive, and you have a high need to win, then you really need to detach from, before you walk through the door, just let go of the need to win this opportunity. If you have high power needs, you have the need for authority and respect, that's probably a good thing, because you and I and have been talking about that. You want to occupy the expert practitioner position, but some people can be in danger of having too high a need for authority and respect. BLAIR: And that's me. So I need to let go of the need to be the absolute authority on something, and other people have high affiliation needs. What they're concerned about in any social interaction, even in a commercial one like this is the need to be liked by others, the need to connect with and be liked by others. So in that situation, they would be telling themselves something like all right, this person doesn't need a friend. They need an expert practitioner. So I will detach from my need to have this deep, personal connection with somebody. There's some more nuance there. You don't want to detach from that completely. But you do want to recognize essentially what a big motivator is and recognize that you tend to go to this too often, and in the situation you want to let go of it. BLAIR: So the idea is that all will not follow speaks to this notion that you don't need to close every deal, and then there's this secondary detachment of what is it that you personally need. Identify it and let go of it. DAVID: Because we should not need constant affirmation that we are an expert in the relationship. We should enter that potential relationship. Every once in a while, it's on a rocky ground, but believing generally that we are the expert, and there's a lot of evidence for that and that many, many clients over many years have paid us a lot. And then after the engagement, we've heard that it made a difference for them, whatever business our listeners are in. DAVID: I love talking about this notion about how much we care or what we care about. I have this theory that has zero scientific underpinnings, just to make that clear. BLAIR: Those are the best theories. Go on. DAVID: All of a sudden, you're interested now. The idea is that we have 200. Now the number might go up or down, obviously, but we have about 200 instances in our souls where we can care a lot more than the client can. And every time we deeply care more than the client does about something, a little part of us dies. And then we have 199 left. So you want to use those very carefully. They're like little tokens that are not going to be replaced. Caring about the wrong things, it just kind of kills you slowly, right? BLAIR: Yeah, you've punched all the holes in your care card. You're out. DAVID: Exactly. Where's my free card? BLAIR: Clearly, you've punched yours years ago. DAVID: I don't even know what a care card looks like anymore. Okay. So what's this mantra that you're going to try and get me ... you say it, and I'll repeat it. And this rolls up the first four. BLAIR: I am the expert. I am the prize. I am on a mission to help. I can only do that if you let me lead. All will not follow, and that's okay. You try it. DAVID: Okay. If I say that is, will you let me lead the next six episodes of the podcast? BLAIR: Yes. DAVID: Okay. BLAIR: You can have whatever you want if you say this. DAVID: Okay. I don't believe that. But I am the expert. I am the prize. I am on a mission to help. I can only do that if you help me lead. BLAIR: If you let me lead. DAVID: If you let me lead. All will not follow, and that's okay. So obviously, I messed it up. I have to practice this some more. Okay. So those are the first four, and you've wrapped them up. The next three masteries are different, though. They're not foundational. They're more specific situation masteries. And we sometimes get these in as well, today. BLAIR: Yeah. DAVID: So what's the first one? Silence. BLAIR: You're looking at the list. You tell me. DAVID: Ah, you were pulling that on me. You just did that to me, and I fell right into it. BLAIR: Yeah. DAVID: Okay, I'm a sucker. BLAIR: The fifth mastery is silence, and I think we've talked about this a little bit before. I think mastering silence is the single biggest little thing that you can do, if that makes sense, and it does make sense, the single biggest little thing you that you can do to become a better sales person. Nature abhors a vacuum, and when a buyer and seller are talking, any time there's a pause in that conversation, there's an impetus on both parts to fill it, and if you're the seller, you tend to fill a pause in a sales conversation with some sort of concession. You don't even have to master silence. You just have to learn to be more comfortable in silence than the other party. Because if you can be more comfortable, then the client is likely to fill the void with a concession or they will give you really valuable information. BLAIR: So we always teach that any time you raise an objection or place kind of a hurdle in front of the client and ask the client to jump over that hurdle, or you ask for a behavioral concession, after the statement or the ask, you just be quiet. So if you put forward your proposal, and it's got a price on it, and you're putting it forward orally, and you say and the price is $200,000, then you just stop and say nothing. And it's hard to do this initially, but it's actually very easy to get good at this. And if you can just kind of not be the person to break the silence, and you let the client fill the void, then you'll get all kinds of information on where the client stands, on how much power you have in the relationship. And you might even get some concessions, whereas sales people like to fill a void in that moment. The price is $200,000, silence, and then the sales person can't stand it, and says, oh but we could do it for less. DAVID: Yeah, and the panic rises so quickly. It's like yeah, maybe they just need to pull out Fortnite and start playing it or check their email. You're not suggesting that. BLAIR: I would say count to 10 under your breath. DAVID: Yeah, okay. All right, so silence is the first of the three after the foundational ones, and the second one is directness, say what you're thinking. We've talked a lot about this one, but it fits in the system, right? So just remind people, if they haven't heard that episode. BLAIR: I was just working with a firm earlier this week, and we were just doing some role play scenarios where I was on the subject of saying what you're thinking. So I was just throwing out some scenarios. And I was saying okay, here's a scenario, you're talking to a prospective client. You're thinking oh, they're probably too small. They probably can't afford you. What do you say? And I was really surprised at how people ... and I've been doing this for years. I continue to be surprised at how people struggle with finding the language to actually politely say what you're thinking, because we are not conditioned to do that in this business. In the creative and marketing firm business, we're taught that we're in the service business. The customer's always right. We're taught to nod and smile yes, even when we think the answer is no. BLAIR: But an expert would never do that. If you've got an opinion that's contrary to one that's been stated by the client, including an opinion on what the next step should be in the path to determining whether or not you're going to work together, you should say it. So be direct. Put it on the table. So I say there's a slight pause. As soon as you get the thought, the contrary thought, you have an obligation to state the thought, and you pause long enough so that you can think of a way to say it with kindness. So we talked about before, the subject goes by the name kind ruthlessness. So you're kind in your language, but you're ruthless in your standards and your behavior. By that I mean, you're being direct, you're saying what you're thinking. If you think the client's assessment of their problem or their opportunity is wrong, then you should say so. BLAIR: If you think there are flaws in the way they're proposing to hire a firm like yours, then you should say so. If you think the client is making a mistake in the engagement, then you should say so. Any expert worth their weight would confront politely with kindness the client with the mistake they think the client is making. And we, almost universally ... it's not universal, but it's almost universal. We don't do that. We need to learn to get better at doing that. So you master this idea of directness of saying what you're thinking. DAVID: I'm picturing somebody taking the oath of office or being sworn in before they give testimony. There needs to be something like that for experts, a commissioning service for experts where they raise their hand and say, I pledge to do it politely but to be honest and to state the truth with the clients who deserve that from me. They deserve that leadership from me. This is very powerful. BLAIR: I love that idea, our equivalent of the Hippocratic oath. DAVID: Right. So silence, directness, and the last one is money. So master your own wonderful relationship with money. That's one of the things we got with another couple or some friends or whatever, and we can talk about sex. We can talk about all kinds of ... we can't talk about how they raise their kids, and we can't talk about money sometimes, and that carries over into how we conduct these early relationships and sales studies as well. We can't really talk about money for some reason. BLAIR: Yeah, and that's why it's the seven and the last mastery. I like the idea that if people were just to read it, you have to master money. Some people would be repulsed by it, the idea. And those are the people that I'm really speaking to here, because we're not mastering the accumulation of money or the spending of money. What I mean by mastering money is mastering our own relationship with money. I believe, and I think we've talked about this before, that most of us have a dysfunctional relationship with money. BLAIR: In my book, Pricing Creativity, the last chapter, I think it's titled the last obstacle is you, and I talk about the mental barriers ... we've done a podcast on this ... the mental barriers to profit. And that's what I'm talking about is not getting hung up on money, and all of the personal emotional things that we were taught or we learned around money, all of the baggage ... baggage isn't fair, because as you pointed out, in social situations, the rules around talking about money are actually quite different than they are in a business situation. You say you've got friends where you can talk about sex, you can talk about politics, you can talk about things. But you can't necessarily talk about money. There's only a small number of people in my kind of personal life, where I have an open relationship without the subject of money, where we've agreed that we're going to talk openly about money, and there's really nothing off limits. DAVID: Yeah. BLAIR: I'm really talking about mastering the subject of the hold that money has over you or the idea that the subject of money is somehow holding you back because you don't feel it's worth it. I got an email two days ago from a client, who said ... he forwarded an exchange that was happening in his firm. He said, oh you're going to love this. He said read down and start from the bottom. So this is a firm that's recently moved to value-based pricing. So they still scoped it based on hours. Somebody internally said, well, it should take this many hours. The client wasn't buying hours, but they sold it for way more hours than it took to deliver. And two people internally were saying this is unethical. We cannot do this. BLAIR: So the principal at the firm and I are kind of laughing back and forth about this, because if you think it's unethical to create extraordinary value quickly, then you have a dysfunctional relationship with money. DAVID: You also have some other issues that are coming around the corner, too. This is such a great topic. I'm not at the point where I'm going to start chanting this. But I do ... I really do like this. So the foundational four, focus, purpose, leadership, detachment, and then the three masteries that are more for specific situations which you might use in certain specific cases would be silence, directness, and money. Blair, this was fantastic. Loved our discussion today. BLAIR: Yeah, thanks. It wasn't nearly as weird as I thought it would be. DAVID: Thank you, Blair. BLAIR: Thanks, David.

Episode 33 of the Art of Advisory, podcast by Kirk Bowman and Hector Garcia: Interview with Blair Enns on Pricing Creativity Watch us LIVE every Tuesday at 12pm EST in Facebook at: http://www.facebook.com/altaccountant Download MP3: http://hectorgarcia.com/wp-content/PODCAST/ArtOfAdvisory_Episode33.m4a

Episode 33 of the Art of Advisory, podcast by Kirk Bowman and Hector Garcia: Interview with Blair Enns on Pricing Creativity Watch us LIVE every Tuesday at 12pm EST in Facebook at: http://www.facebook.com/altaccountant Download MP3: http://hectorgarcia.com/wp-content/PODCAST/ArtOfAdvisory_Episode33.m4a

In any trade, mastering the work is just the first of many hurdles. But one of the most daunting for most agency owners is pricing. What is the work worth? Who is my competition, and what if they offer services for less? What is the true value of the work we’re doing and what’s the ROI for our client? There will always be someone (agency or freelancer) who is willing to do the same work for less. But how does that influence our pricing strategy and should it? This episode is all about the value conversation that leads to identifying a price based on the value you are offering. We’re going to dive into both the theories and principles and how to get over the discomfort of putting these pricing principles into practice. Blair is an expert in sales, particularly in the creative services industry. He started his career working for a number of Canadian ad agencies and design firms. In 2000, he struck out on his own with a consulting practice named Win Without Pitching. In our conversation, Blair will walk us through a framework developed over decades of learning, trying, failing and perfecting value-based selling for creatives. Blair is the author of Win Without Pitching Manifesto. He has just written a brand-new book called Pricing Creativity. I have spent some time with it, and the cool thing is, it's not really a book – or more precisely, it’s not only a book. It's more of a training manual – a three-ring binder full of all kinds of tips, tricks, and the psychology of pricing strategy. This is a meaty episode and I promise – it’s going to give you plenty to think about. What you’ll learn about in this episode: How to effectively price your creative work Why a one-page proposal beats a 75-page presentation every time The value of silence in the sales process Moving from vendor to valued expert early in the sales process Making the closing on the sale a “non-event” The four-step framework for mastering the value conversation How to discipline yourself to not offer solutions too early in the process The mindset shift needed to improve selling skills to become a pricing expert Having value conversations with the right decision-makers How to move from agreeing with sales principles to making them standard practice Ways to contact Blair: Website: winwithoutpitching.com Ebook/Training: winwithoutpitching.com/pricingcreativity We’re proud to announce that Hubspot is now the presenting sponsor of the Build A Better Agency podcast! Many thanks to them for their support!

Blair Enns, CEO of Win Without Pitching (Kaslo, British Columbia) and author of The Win Without Pitching Manifesto and Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour   Blair Enns is Founder and CEO of Win Without Pitching, a company that trains creative agencies on how to win business without giving away their most valuable product—their intellectual property—in getting that business. Blair authored two business books that have proven to be transformational for many creative firms: The Win Without Pitching Manifesto and Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour. Key to the power of these books is Blair's recognition that Creative people have an inherent difficulty with “sales.”   Blair defines creativity as “the ability to see, the ability to bring a novel perspective to a problem you haven't previously solved.” Creative people tend to build businesses that allow them to solve problems they haven't previously solved. However, their personal desire for variety does not work from a business standpoint—to build a strong, financially solid firm, they need to differentiate, to focus on doing a specific thing for a specific market.   In this interview, Blair emphasizes the importance of client selection . . . of building your business with clients who are interested in value and a return on investment . . . rather than chasing budget-driven clients who are focused solely on price—those who see marketing as a commodity with charges based on billable hours and the cost of materials. The foundation of a strong business is value-driven clients who recognize that creativity is unique in its ability to produce bottom-line results and worth the investment. Although a creative agency might sell excess capacity to price-buyers, it is critical that the agency “strip out the extras” for the reduced-price client, instead of trying to “fly everyone first class.”   Blair is very clear that a price-focused buyer is unlikely to become a value-focused buyer. The creative's job is to discern a buyer's-type and manage that buyer appropriately.   Blair is available on his company's website: winwithoutpitching.com and as Blair Enns on Twitter and LinkedIn. If you're interested in his book, Pricing Creativity, go to pricingcreativity.com.  

Value Based Pricing is a term that frequently comes up when people talk about service based businesses, but exactly how it works is often a mystery to us designers. In this episode Ian Paget speaks to Blair Enns to learn what value based pricing is, and how it can be used to build a profitable business whilst also providing the best service possible to your clients. Blair Enns is the author of the highly acclaimed book The Win Without Pitching Manifesto, and Pricing Creativity: a guide to profit beyond the billable hour. Show notes along with an episode transcription can be found here: https://logogeek.uk/podcast/value-based-pricing/   Resources & Books Mentioned Win Without Pitching Manifesto by Blair Enns  Amazon US | Amazon UK Pricing Creativity by Blair Enns (Only available at pricingcreativity.com) Built to Sell by John Warrillow  Amazon US | Amazon UK Pricing on Purpose by Ronald J. Baker  Amazon US | Amazon UK   Sponsored by Freshbooks This episode is sponsored by FreshBooks, which is an cloud based accounting software that makes it easy to create and send branded invoices, track time and to manage your incoming and outgoing money. It’s designed specifically for creative professionals, so it’s beautifully designed, and continually optimised and improved. I highly recommend it, and you can try it out for yourself free for 30 days.  Go check FreshBooks out!

Today we speak with the author of 2 books, The Win Without Pitching Manifesto, and his latest book, Pricing Creativity. He's one of the world's leading experts on pricing for creative professionals. His name is Blair Enns, and in our conversation today you'll discover: Why you shouldn't send a written proposal (and what to do instead) What Blair means when he says you should price the client and not the job Blair's 6 rules for pricing services Register for the FREE Firm Freedom Formula Online Training: https://www.businessofarchitecture.com/freedomwebinar Get access to the 4-part firm profit map here: http://freearchitectgift.com

“By paying some attention to your pricing strategy, it’s actually the easiest way to dramatically increase your profits. There’s really nothing else you can do that is so simple to drive bottom-line performance.” - Blair Enns In episode 47 of the RevThinking podcast, Joel Pilger talks with Blair Enns of Win Without Pitching. Their discussion spans a variety of topics including "The S Word," why weak sales is often not a sales problem (but rather a marketing problem), and how many creative entrepreneurs are addicted to the Big Reveal. Be sure to grab a copy of Blair’s latest book, "Pricing Creativity."

Welcome to episode #59! Today we have the founder and CEO of Win Without Pitching, the sales training and coaching organization for creative professionals. He is also the author of The Win Without Pitching Manifesto and the brand new book titled Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour. This man has taught me and many thousands of creative people and businesses around the world, on how to build a lucrative client base without having to pitch ideas for free.   Some of the topics we spoke about include: How to best position our value in order to win business How to command the high ground in the client vs creative relationship His approach to proposals His view on retainer clients Rules on pricing creativity and so much more.   If you’re someone who is interested in moving from a vendor position to an expert practitioner position, then this is absolutely for you. I present to you … the sharp and charismatic ... Blair Enns!     More on Blair can be found via the links below: Twitter: @BlairEnns LinkedIn Profile Pricing Creativity Book Win Without Pitching Website Subscribe to The Giant Thinkers Podcast on iTunes.     Read or listen to an entire book in 15 minutes via Blinkist The Blinkist app takes the best non-fiction books and distills them into powerful, made-for-mobile summaries. Essentially, giving you and I the main concepts of an entire book in 15 minutes. Available to read and also to listen to as audio. Head to GiantThinkers.com/Blink to take up the 25% off discount. Start your free trial or get three months off your yearly plan when you join today. The 25% off is automatically applied, when you head to GiantThinkers.com/Blinkist.  

https://entrearchitect.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/BEnnsHeadshot.jpg () Pricing Creativity What is it that we sell as small firm architects? Is it a pile of paper? A bunch of technical services? A legal process required to obtain a building permit? What we sell is a desired future state. Whether we’re working with commercial, institutional or residential clients, they have an idea in their minds about how they’d like their lives to be in the future. We’ve all experienced the moment at the end of the project when our clients finally get it and understand the value we provide. We need them to understand the value of what we do before we do it. This week at EntreArchitect Podcast, Pricing Creativity with Author Blair Enns. Background Blair Enns is the sand in the free pitching machine. Through his sales training program for creative professionals, https://amzn.to/2KMzwyJ (Win Without Pitching), he is on a mission to change the way creative services are bought and sold the world over. He is the author of https://amzn.to/2KMzwyJ (The Win Without Pitching Manifesto) and https://www.winwithoutpitching.com/pricingcreativity/ (Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond The Billable Hour). Blair lives with his family in the remote mountain village of Kaslo, British Columbia, Canada. Origin Story Blair lives in a small mountain village in British Columbia, Canada. He grew up in the center of Canada, in business side of the advertising and design professions. He began as an account manager and moved into new business roles as his strengths developed. He started Win Without Pitching as a consulting practice and a way to earn a living so that he could drop out of the advertising profession. One day, he realized his limitations in the business were going to take him out if he didn’t change them. He began to scale out and build a training organization in early 2013. Do you see a lot of creative and profit difference in your circles? When people start their own small firms as artists, you’re doing it for fun. Sometimes we delude ourselves to think the money will come one day, or that it’s not about the money. One day, you realize you’re tired of having fun and ready to make money. What do you do if you’re a creative professional who loves design and wants to make money? If you’re going into business for yourself, the business part is more important than the art. Get a business education. Instead of just being inspired and only focusing on the art; you’ll burn yourself out and be unable to find success. It’s about value creation for your clients. Learn how to select and shape good clients and good engagements, and your best engagements will allow you to bring your artistic skills to the table – always to the ultimate goal of delivering value to the client.  You have something you want to do with every client you have, but it’s not just about you. Your focus is on your client and their different values. What is price discrimination?  Different people are willing to pay different amounts for the same thing and your job is to let them. The reason they’ll pay different amounts is because the value to them is different. You have the license to charge as much as you want to. You may evaluate something as valued one way, where your client thinks it’s worth half that. What do you do in that situation? Offer options. If your client asks for a proposal, what you put forward should have options. Delivering one proposal puts your client a take-it-or-leave-it situation. They have a choice to make based on comparison, so enable and facilitate them to compare your options and figure out which is the best value. If they don’t like your option, they’ll go away and compare your proposal to other bids. Your clients are going to make comparisons anyway, so enable and facilitate those comparisons for them. With each...

We've all experienced the moment at the end of the project when our clients finally get it and understand the value we provide. We need them to understand the value of what we do before we do it. The post EA219: Pricing Creativity with Author Blair Enns [Podcast] appeared first on EntreArchitect.

Author of Pricing Creativity, Blair Enns joins me to discuss why billing by the hour is killing your revenue and degrading your credibility as an expert.

Following the success of the Win Without Pitching Manifesto, Blair Enns’ much anticipated book – Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour was published earlier this year. I’ll admit, I was worried how this transformative approach to pricing would fit into this series, where we explore how we can implement small changes to our […]

ICYMI, Open Tabs are our IRL trend forecasting events that we hold inside our agency partners offices, where we get a few talented people together to talk about their currently/frequently opened browser tabs all to the tune of a few cold Sample Brews. If you want to get a taste of this, head over to opentabs.rodeo for more details. In the meantime, to help hold us over between events, we’re having full episode-length discussions of our own favourite links from our professional development slack channel. Remember! We are now an ENHANCED podcast. That's right - If you listen to our podcast in Overcast or Pocket Casts, you can get super special images, links, and chapter breaks in your player while you listen. Featured links from our discussion - Want to get these in your inbox every Friday? Sign up for our text-only tinyletter at tinyletter.com/jackywinter Intro: Co-Star Astrology App Bianca: Motion Hatch Podcast: What You Need To Know About Intellectual Property And Contracts As A Motion Designer / The AOI Jeremy: Keep in Touch / The Power of No / Slide 1 of BBH's 1982 pitch for Levi's explaining with seductive confidence why they didn't pitch with creative / No Spec / Say No to Spec Video Lara: Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour / Lessons from Pricing Creativity / Brutally Honest: Strategies to evolve your creative business If you like the show or these links or think we sound like nice people, please go and leave us a rating or review on iTunes. It helps other people find the show and boosts our downloads which in turn lets us know that what we're doing is worth doing more of! Jacky Winter Gives You The Business is produced by Areej Nur To subscribe, view show notes or previous episodes head on over to our podcast page at http://jackywinter.givesyouthe.biz/ Special thanks to Jacky Winter (the band, with much better shirts than us) for the music. Listen to them over at Soundcloud. Everything else Jacky Winter (us) can be found at http://www.jackywinter.com/

For the second time, I had the pleasure to have Blair Enns on the show and talk about his new book Pricing Creativity. So much fire and practical advice dropped on this episode of Laroche.fm that you can't miss it! How to price a creative service beyond billable hours, why billing hours are a dead end, why discounting prices is not good, the psychology of value you are selling & creating for your clients and so much more just in one episode. I would listen to this episode twice and then go buy his book for more knowledge as this is changing so many things on how you work, create and sell. Make sure to check the previous episode for more info about Blair's background and his other book Win Without Pitching Manifesto. Listen on Soundcloud: https://goo.gl/5LCKn7 Listen on iTunes: https://goo.gl/Ba2KcJ Episode page: https://www.laroche.fm/home/pricing-creativity-blair-enns About podcast: https://www.laroche.fm/ About Laroche: https://www.laroche.co/ ------- Music: https://soundcloud.com/itsnglmusic

Blair talks about his new book, "Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour," and the process it took to write it. David gets him to share three of the main rules laid out in the book that firms should apply in order to see significant increases in profit.

Guest Blair Enns gives us a look behind the scenes of creating his new book Pricing Creativity. Blair's Bio Blair Enns is a 25-year veteran of the business side of the creative professions. In 2002, he launched Win Without Pitching, which has worked with thousands of creative professionals in numerous countries through direct engagements, seminars, workshops & webcasts. Blair is the author of "The Win Without Pitching Manifesto" and the forthcoming "Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour" Links Pricing Creativity Win Without Pitching 2Bobs Podcast Blair on Twitter Blair on LinkedIn Implementing Value Pricing: A Radical Business Model for Professional Firms The Curtis Creek Manifesto Transcript Jonathan: Hello and welcome to The Business of Authority. I'm Jonathan Stark. Rochelle: And I'm Rochelle Moulton. Jonathan: And today, we're very excited to be joined by guest Blair Enns. Blair is the founder and CEO of Win Without Pitching and the author of the Win Without Pitching Manifesto, and the forthcoming Pricing Creativity: Guide To Profit Beyond the Billable Hour. Did I get that right Blair? Blair: You got it right Jonathan thank you. Jonathan: Stressful :-) I am very excited and I [00:00:30] know Rochelle's very excited to have you on the show. We have just a lot in common, I've been following your work for years, we've read a lot of the same authors and we're super excited to talk about how you've taken this big idea, which to me started with the Manifesto, perhaps it had its roots before that, and turned it into a consulting business and then later a training business, and now hopefully, fingers crossed, a bestselling author. So, could we start off by just [00:01:00] giving folks a little bit of background about who you are and what you do now and then we can sort of delve into the history? Blair: Yeah, sure. And thank you to both of you for having me on the podcast. I'm really looking forward to this and happy to be here. My name is Blair Ends, the company is Win Without Pitching and I founded it back in 2002, early 2002. At the time, it was a consulting practice, a new business development, sales or new business development consulting to creative [00:01:30] firms, typically independent creative firms, and I had come out of about a dozen years of working in advertising agencies and design firms and thought I'd launch this consulting practice. So that was the first iteration of Win Without Pitching. And then over the years, beginning in late 2012, and I'm sure we'll get into this, I decided to shift the structure of the company from a solo consulting practice to a training company. So that's where we are now in late 2017, [00:02:00] early 2018. Win Without Pitching is about five years into its current incarnation as a training company. And for a few years; 2013, 14, it was both as I kind of played with training and had to make a decision about going one way or the other. So we've been a pure training company for about three years. It really feels like this business is about three years old, but really it's more like 16. Jonathan: Wow. And [00:02:30] before that, you were from the agency world, you were inside the agency world, yes? Blair: Yeah, I worked for some of the world's largest advertising agencies and some of its smallest design firms. I was a suit, I don't own a suit anymore. Although my latest social media profile pic has me in a suit. I had a borrow a tie from my 18 year old son for that photo and I own one jacket. But I was a suit for many years and then I moved to this little mountain [00:03:00] village in the middle of nowhere where we live now when I started the consulting practice. So there's this kind of shift in the personal life that was the impetus for the business change. And I had a Hugo Boss bonfire when I moved out here, got rid of all the suits. But I was a suit doing account services and new business at a very young age in the first ad agency I ever worked. When at I was 22, I was handed responsibility for new business. I wasn't great at it but I did have some natural skills at [00:03:30] it. So yeah, I came out of the account management and new business side of both advertising and design. Jonathan: Okay. So, how do you go from there to writing the Manifesto? Blair: Well, the Manifesto I wrote I think in late 2005, early 2006 so I had been running the consulting business for three or four years at that time. And the name, I think the of the business is kind of a fluke and I've been [00:04:00] told by some of my closest professional friends that, "Yeah, Win Without Pitching is a stupid name, you need to change the name." On some level, I think it is maybe not an appropriate, maybe not the appropriate ... There's something about the name that can sound a little bit schlocky maybe, like some sort of false promise, but on the other hand, that name has driven me to ... It's really a great label for how I've always thought about new business, [00:04:30] and it's forced me to come at the subject matter from that perspective that is really true to me. And I think that's really been the difference, whether it's been a consulting practice or a training company or a book that I've written, i's always coming from that win without pitching perspective. So the name came first, the business came first. And then in, I think it was, yeah, it was late 2005, I think early 2006, where I [00:05:00] was writing a piece. I've published an article, a blog post for years, for 16 years, either somewhere between weekly and monthly. And at the time, I think I was publishing closer to monthly. And I wanted something for the end of the year. So I tried on, I had this idea of like just wrapping up all of my philosophy into a few short pithy statements. And I was also trying on tone of voice. I'm a huge fan of Manifestos, [00:05:30] and I kind of collect them and I've read most of the big ones. I think the biggest, most important book ever written and religious people will be horrified at this, I think the most important book ever written might be the Curtis Creek Manifesto. And I won't say anything more about that, people can go look at it and think, "Huh? What are you talking abut?" Order it, give it to every 12 year old you know and you'll change the world. I was writing a blog post and it was trying on [00:06:00] a new voice, I was trying on a Manifesto voice. And at the time, and even for a few years after, it was the riskiest thing I'd ever written, just because the tone was so different. And I thought it was going to be taken as too over the top. Like it's almost the biblical [inaudible 00:06:14] We shall, etc. It's 12 proclamations, it's not chapters I imagine Martin Luther nailing something like this to the church door. So I was quite nervous when I hit publish. And then the response was really gratifying and inspiring, [00:06:30] because people were telling me that they had ... some designers that actually typeset it and put it on a poster and actually put it on their wall. And I kept getting feedback like that for a long time. So when it came time to write a book, and if you want to be seen as the expert in your space, then you probably should write a book. And I was feeling the pressure to write a book. But it didn't have a format, it didn't have kind of a narrative structure or I didn't [00:07:00] know ... Otherwise, it would just been a book of lists. And then I thought based on the success of that post, maybe I'm going to frame a book based on this. And I'm so glad I did. I'm really happy with this book, seven and a half years later. I'm surprised to say that I'm still really happy with this book. Jonathan: That's great. To have a shelf life it's that long, there's no reason it couldn't continue to grow. Nothing in it is really dated, it's completely ... Rochelle: [00:07:30] It's evergreen. Blair: Yeah. I set out to write a timeless book. And my intention for the book was I would create something that would outlive me. And so, there is nothing in it, as both of you point out, it's kind of evergreen content, there's nothing in there that will be dated. There's nothing about the design, the design looks like it was like dug up from a lock box and it could be from any time. In fact, one of the first things I did with this book, once I decided on the fact that it would be a Manifesto, is I [00:08:00] had to decide what size would it be. So I took a bunch of different books that I owned and ... I just had a sense of how the size of the book, so I took something that was the right thickness, but it was too large a format, and I cut it down. And I said, "I want the book to be this size." And this isn't the way books ... So I wrote to the size because I wanted a designer, somebody who maybe doesn't do a lot of in-depth reading, I wanted them to be able to read it on a typical plane ride; like on a two hour plane ride. I wanted [00:08:30] it to fit into a purse, into a laptop bag, on a toilet tank. And then so once I got the physical, I had the structure, this 12 proclamations Manifesto structure. And then I had the size, and then I hired a designer who when he's not doing his day job, he designs typefaces for Bibles. Jonathan: Nice. Blair: Yeah. I thought, "Well, for a creative audience, it either has to be really well designed or it has [00:09:00] to just be all about the words," and I wanted it to be all about the words. And I wanted it to be somebody who is fanatic fanatical about type. So I hired Brian Soy. His firm is called Aspire and it's not book design isn't their day job, but they do. In fact, they're just finishing up my next book, Pricing Creativity. But he's a nut about type. And I remember he came to a seminar I did in Miami Beach years ago, I remember walking down the main drag, is Ocean Drive, I forget, in Miami [00:09:30] Beach. And him just like pointing out all the art deco fonts and thinking ... in all of the hotels and buildings that we were going past. So the rest of us are in this conversation about something else and he's just going crazy over typefaces. Jonathan: Yeah. It's awesome down there for that. And it was a big success. It's how I heard about you. In fact, I know who told me about you, no, I take it back. So this is weird and this is, I think, perhaps [00:10:00] a source of some like infusion earlier, which is that I came across this as a blog post first. A friend of mine was, "Blair Enns, Blair Enns, Blair Enns." And he sent me a link to one of the, I don't remember which one it was, but it was one of the proclamations. And I was like, "Yes, yes, this is good. This guy knows what he's talking about." I didn't even realize for a long time that it was bound in any form. I was like, "Oh, this is just this free online thing," which I believe is still true. I believe people can still read [00:10:30] it online. Blair: You can read the entire book for free at WinWithoutPitching.com. Jonathan: Well, now I want the physical one. I want to feel it, put it on my toilet tank. Blair: Where it Belongs. Yes. Jonathan: So, you launched the book, and people are printing it out on their walls, I would count that as a big success. And I've seen a number of videos of you sort of giving [00:11:00] presentations, which I know came after that time because you reference the Manifesto in the talks. What was that, period? Do you do that anymore? Sounds like you're in a remote area now, so you probably don't. Blair: Yeah. No I do a lot of speaking. In fact, when my next book comes out on January 10th, I've set aside all of 2018 to just travel the world and speak in support of that book. And I didn't have, now that I'm the CEO of a training company and I don't coach or train in our program [00:11:30] anymore. I create curriculum, I work with my team, I take us into the future, I'm in charge of future value creation. I speak and I write. When I was a consultant, I wrote the book and it got me lots of invitations to speak already did pretty good on the speaking front. But it got me a lot of invitations to speak so I did a lot of lectures on the Manifesto around the world. But I was still running a consulting business. And if I'm not consulting then I'm not [00:12:00] sending invoices, and I'm not earning money. I've been fortunate in that I've always been paid well to speak. And what I get paid has increased over the years. I could probably earn a decent living just speaking if I wanted to. But the real money was in consulting. Now we're a training company and I'm not encumbered with that day to day training or operations of the business, I'm free to basically just go and speak, so that's that's a big part of it. And anybody who writes a book, what follows behind [00:12:30] that are a lot of speeches and nowadays a lot of podcasts interviews like this. Jonathan: I imagine it was tough. Well, was it a tough decision to switch from consulting to training or was it, you said you had sort of a shift in where you were living and the bonfire and whatnot. Were you excited to do that or was it scary, was it obvious? Blair: That was the scariest. I look the scariest things that you ever do, at some point soon after you look back on them and think, "Well, that was ... Why was [00:13:00] I so afraid by that?" But picking up our young family and moving to this little village in the middle of nowhere not, not really knowing how we were going to earn a living, that's how Win Without Pitching came to be, it was a necessity. I knew I wanted to kind of get out of the rat race of the city and the advertising profession at the time. Before I left, I was in a horrible job with a difficult boss, I'll say it politely, [00:13:30] and I was ruined for the advertising profession. And then, I was fired from that job, like I engineered my own dismissal, and that's another long story. I thought I would ... And I saw it all building towards a lawsuit. But as I was being relieved of my duties and handed my severance check, I thought, "I'm not going to sue you. I'm never going to see you again." After that I went to work for a really great boss and I was asked to build a satellite office. It had existed [00:14:00] but all the clients had left, to build the satellite office for another creative firm. And that was a great experience that that allowed me to fall in love with the profession again. But I had already decided we were moving to this village in the middle of nowhere, so I told the guy I was working for that I would do it for a year, a year turned into 20 months then I said I had to go. So we moved to this little village in the middle of nowhere and we had a bunch of little kids, we have four children. We had three at the time and the youngest was 6 months old. We had a fourth [00:14:30] a couple of years after moving here. So we were raising a young family and in the early days, Win Without Pitching, it was a lifestyle business. In the summers, it's a beautiful little village we live in on the shore of a 92 mile long lake, home to the largest strain of rainbow trout in the world. It's idyllic, it's as you imagine it. For years, I shared an office with a grizzly bear biologist and a bat biologist. So we really are in this beautiful little mountain village in the mile [00:15:00] of nowhere and it really was a lifestyle business in the early days. And then around 2012, my kids were at a certain age, they no longer really needed dad to be around a lot more and I was working more and more as a consultant. And in November of 2012, I found myself flat on my back with pneumonia in bed for two weeks and it was the fourth time that year that I had gotten some sort of sickness, just run down somewhere. And on three continents. So four times on three continents in one year, I just kind of run myself down as [00:15:30] I was trying to maximize this consulting model. And I had an epiphany while I was kind of recovering, I realized that my business model was trying to kill me, so I'd better kill it first. And that's what I decided to make the shift to. I decided to launch a training program. I recovered and I put together a 13 week training program, sent it out to my market, immediately sold it out. Then did another one, sold that out, did another one sold [00:16:00] that out. So that took me through to 2013. And then for 2014, I strung three programs together into an annual commitment, sold that out. And then I think by 2015 I decided that I couldn't do both. Now, I didn't come to the conclusion that a training business is better than a consulting business. Part of my journey was, I discovered value-based pricing and I realized that the way I was pricing my consulting engagements [00:16:30] and running my consulting engagements was contributing to kind of the stress on my health. I had productized my consulting services. You could do a two day session with me, which would cost X or could be like one day plus a bunch of remote consulting work. I'd package created three or four different packages and I'd put these prices on those packages. And everything I just described violates some of like my new rules of pricing. And I realized as I learned more [00:17:00] about value based pricing, I thought, "Okay. I either need to become a properly value based pricing consultant." By that I mean, I would look at every consulting engagement as a completely blank slate and dive deep into what it is that the client really wanted and how much value I could create, and then craft a really unique engagement that was specific to the client and the value in their situation and the value they were trying to create. So that every engagement would truly [00:17:30] be different and would be priced differently. If I wanted to earn the most money from those engagements, I felt like I needed to be able to say to my clients, "You know what, I'll get on a plane and I'll see the day after tomorrow." Because of where I live, it takes me a day to get anywhere. It sometimes takes me a day to get to an airport. I just couldn't do that. So I felt like if I couldn't properly value price my consulting engagements, then I really needed to go the other way and fully productize [00:18:00] my business. So that's the decision I made. I made the decision to go to a more scalable, productized service business and productized consulting business is a training company. So that's where we are today and it was really driven by the fact that I had kind of maxed out the consulting model the way I was doing it and I was a little bit limited by where I lived. And I felt strongly that I needed to go one way or the other and the easiest way for me to go [00:18:30] would be to go to scale up training company. I was talking to somebody in Austin, Texas about this the other day, somebody who is a consultant, and he was kind of trying on the idea that, well, maybe the evolution of all consulting practices is training companies. And I said, "Man, if I lived in Austin, Texas, I would be a consultant. I would not own a training company. If I had ready access to lots of different creative firms, where I could go in deep and help them more, I'm pretty sure in the short term, in the first five to six years for sure, [00:19:00] I would make way more money and have a bigger impact on a smaller number of clients." But I don't live in Austin, Texas. I live in Kaslo, British Columbia and it makes sense to build a training company. Jonathan: It sounds like, I don't know if this is just because of the compression of time, that we're compressing the timeline, but it sounds like there was a fairly high degree of certainty there based on a series of decisions that you made, particularly about moving, but it seemed like you were pretty clear on what to do, even though there was some fear. Blair: [00:19:30] Yeah I think so. I was doing a live podcast with my podcast cohost. I do a podcast called 2 Bobs. The number 2 Bobs with my friend and colleague David C. Baker, and we doing it live in London two weeks ago and in the Q&A afterwards, we were talking about how different we are from each other. He's very scientific in his approach and he said to me, he said, "You're not afraid of anything." And I thought, "Well, that's not true." But I get these ideas and I just will not be stopped. And I [00:20:00] think I've learned to lean into the fear. And if you know anything as you do about my selling approach, if there's anything uncomfortable in the sale, we teach well, lean into it, go into the dark places, embrace the awkward silence, say the things that the client won't say, the things that most people in that situation would not bring up. It's your job to bring it up. So I think I've learned that when you get these crazy ideas, lean [00:20:30] into them. As an example, I was a couple of years into both offering a training program and I was still consulting. And I was on a plane I was flying to Dallas and I, for whatever reason I decided, "This is my last. I need to pick one one or the other." I knew it was going to be training and I knew at some point it had to no longer consult. So I decided on the plane, "This is my last client." I walked into my client's office the next morning and one of the first things I said is, "I want [00:21:00] you to know this is my last client." And then I went on the plane on the way home I wrote a lengthy blog post called, I think it's called I'm Out. And I said to the world and nobody reads my blog because they want to know what I'm up to, they read it for the guidance. But every once in a while ... So I just published it for me. I wanted to make a proclamation to the world that that's it, I'm out of the consulting business. I'm not doing this anymore. Because I knew if I didn't say [00:21:30] it publicly, then I would probably start doing consulting again. So that's kind of the way I tend to operate, I come up with this idea and then I make this public declaration about what I'm going to do and then I think, "Oh crap, well, I guess I have to do it." Jonathan: Absolutely. You mentioned a couple of times Pricing Creativity, the new book. I have that thing highlighted to death. And I'm very much looking forward to talking to you about the pricing [00:22:00] details or the tools and the techniques that you talked about in there on my pricing podcast; Ditching Hourly. What appears about, in this context is what was your whole thought process about why to do this book, what your plans are for it, is this for you a 150, 200 page business card or is this something you actually want to see on bestseller lists as like an income stream. What are you thinking about there? Blair: Yeah. That's [00:22:30] a great question and I've found myself into some really great conversations about this. The Manifesto is the oversized business card. I refer to it as the Yes You Can book. I want people to read it, put it down. And as an early reader said in a review or somewhere online, he said, "I finished that book and it just makes me want to go wrestle a bear." So I use that line a lot. I want you to go feel like you can go wrestle a bear after that book. There's not a lot of how to end it. It meets a Manifesto, it's not meant to be a how to. [00:23:00] And the pricing book is a 50 ... so the Manifesto is just under 24,000 words, the pricing book is a 57,000 word manual. I wrote it as a manual, it's published as a three ring binder. There are different formats, you can get the ebook, you can get the ebook in the binder, you can get the ebook binder and four hours of video support. But I really wrote it to be like a desk reference, where you would read it once through, I hope it's enjoyable enough, that you can read [00:23:30] most of it through. And then, after that, when it comes time to put together your next proposal, price out your next proposal. I want people to reach out onto the shelf, pull it out, remind themselves of some of the rules and some of the tips, and then flip to the tool section at the back, and use those tools to actually craft their proposal. My vision is, this book will be on the desk or shelf of every creative professional in the world, who is charged with setting or negotiating [00:24:00] price. That is my vision. And I could have published it through a few different mainstream publishers. The Manifesto has generated a lot of interest for me from mainstream publishers, I could have published it that way. But it occurred to me, I'm looking at a bookshelf filled with about 25 books on pricing, and then probably another 25 on economics, most of them behavioral economics. I own all the books on pricing, and some of them have been so [00:24:30] transformative. Ron Baker has been such an positive influence on me on pricing. And the impact he's had on the professional world through his two books on pricing has been phenomenal. But I look at Ron's books and I think, "He should have made millions of dollars with these books." I know he's built a really lucrative career as a speaker, and I don't know if he does consulting or not, but as an author and a speaker, he has built a really good career. So it's not like he's not well rewarded, but I kind of value [00:25:00] conversation with the Global Creative Community without them knowing it, about the impact and value of this book. And I did some quick math and I thought, "I think I can sell between six and 10,000 copies of this book, which is a really big number given the audience and given what I'm charging for it. But I think over seven or eight years I kind of see ... Because I think it'll be bought in bulk and multiple copies from larger firms. I can see it [00:25:30] affecting the bottom line of 2,000 firms, I did the math. Okay, 2,000 firms, let's say, an average size of a million dollars, that's two billion dollars in revenue. I think and I know from anecdotal experience, that this is conservative. I think that the average firm that reads and implements this, can add at least 5% to their bottom line. If you're a million dollar firm, I fully expect that there's no reason why you can't add an extra $50,000 [00:26:00] in profit. And I've talked to Creative Principles to whom I have given pricing advice through our program, and where we just touch on it tangentially in our training program. The profit increase stories just from some of these pricing principles, are just, tenfold increase in profit, I've heard that a lot, doubled profit, tripled profit. I think adding a 5% increase that essentially represents [00:26:30] a 50% increase in most firms. Anyway, that adds up to like 100 million dollars per year, in additional profit for 2,000 smallish creative firms. If I were working as a consultant and these 2,000 firms were just one business, and I said to that business owner, "Listen, I'm pretty confident that I can add $100 million a year to your bottom line." What do you think fair compensation for me as a consultant [00:27:00] would be? The answer would be in the millions of dollars, right? Jonathan: Absolutely. Blair: But there's something about the package that is a book that says, "Well, it doesn't matter if you add hundreds of millions of dollars to the bottom line, if you sell it the traditional way, books should cost between 20 and $40, then you're only going to make so much money." Well, that's ridiculous. So, this book is not sold, it's not available on Amazon, it's only available on our website, Winwithoutpitching.com, go to Pricingcreativity.com, and you'll be redirected. [00:27:30] And it's the first pricing book in the world that is priced based on the principles in the book. When there are three different options, I'm not going to give away too much here, but it starts at $320 a copy. And then there's a $199 version. There's a $100 version. Each of those is fully guaranteed, if you buy at any level. And if it doesn't work for you for whatever reason, sent it back to us, we'll send your money back, no questions asked. So, it's fully guaranteed. [00:28:00] And I want people after they buy the book, I want them to go back to the pricing page on our website. And I want them to see after they read the book. I want them to see, how many of the pricing principles in the book that I've talked about that we actually used in the pricing of this book. I expect, based on the math that I laid out to you, I expect to earn a million dollars in this book. And I think that's fair for me as an author. If I were a consultant, I would view it as an [00:28:30] unfair price. Jonathan: Too low. Rochelle: So the million dollars, you see that coming directly from the book not from doing speeches around the book, not from doing training around the book, totally from the book? Blair: Yeah. Rochelle: That's incredible. Blair: And I had an author say to me when I was in London, he said, "You know, you don't write a book for the money." Well, sometimes you do. Jonathan: I think sometimes you do, I agree. I've written five or six books now depending on how you count it. And I've done through traditional publishers and [00:29:00] self published. And it's different. I think it's important to decide which way you're going to go before you write it. "What's this book for? Is this a business card? Am I staking out a claim to a particular aspect of authority in the world? Or is this a revenue move?" And I think there can be some overlap. There's certainly overlap in the results, but I think knowing which one you're shooting for before you start the project is pretty important. Blair: I [00:29:30] agree and I think probably too many business authors don't actually spend enough time thinking about what the goal of the book is, and therefore what the right way to publish it is or to market it. Like the purpose of this book is value creation, to create value for others, that's the purpose of it. I'm very happy with The Win Without Pitching manifest. I'm happy with the impact it has had on the global creative profession. And I can extrapolate into the future and imagine the impact that it will have with [00:30:00] the long term, and I'm very proud of that. And I have the same expectations, but in different avenue, same expectations for Pricing Creativity book. I really expect this to be the standard in the global creative firm community for many years. I don't think it's going to be timeless, as timeless as the Manifesto, but I expect it to be the standard, to be on people's shelves, and more than the Manifesto, which gets people inspired and gets them believing that there [00:30:30] is another way. This is really the here's how to take those principles and the Manifesto and turn them into real income, real profit for you and your firm. So, yeah, the oversized business card is out there, this is the thing meant to follow up on that, to drive more value creation and obviously, create value for me the author. Jonathan: I totally agree with that. I think the Manifesto was a rallying cry and Pricing Creativity is more of a [00:31:00] playbook, or it's funny that you chose the physical format that you did, because it does remind me of old time software manuals or cookbooks, or it earn and I think it also breaks the way you pointed out earlier as a sort of preconceived notion of how much a book costs. And it's like "Well, this one's a little different." You don't even have to believe the value proposition of the book necessarily, you just look at it and you're like, "Okay, this is different. This is not your regular business book." Blair: If you think of [00:31:30] the training that we sell, so we sell a term of training for anywhere between 2,000 and $15,000, depending on how it's delivered, but the content is essentially the same. And when I started writing this book, for the longest time I thought there was going to be a training program version of it. If you buy the ebook, the manual, which has the added tool section in it, and an advance review copy that you've read Jonathan, doesn't have that tool section in it, but the manual [00:32:00] has it. And then four hours of supporting video around it, you're essentially buying training, so it looks like an expensive book, but it's actually cheap training. And so, we've decided we're not at least for the next year or so, we're not building training around them, around pricing. Our training continues to be around selling, selling The Win Without Pitching Way. We also have some stuff on positioning and regeneration, but we're really a sales training organization. So, this is really deeply discounted training on pricing. [00:32:30] If you look at it that way, it's cheap. If you look at it as a book, and some people will look at it as a book and be outraged at the price, it's expensive. Rochelle: But it's this wonderful integration of the idea of a book in an online course. A lot of people are complaining about online courses now, because you're not getting enough deep content. And I like how you put both of them together here. Blair: Thank you. Even our training program we go out of the way to say it's not an online course. This is [00:33:00] coach led training in classrooms, our coaches have more than 10 years of experience of selling The Win Without Pitching Way, because they were clients of mine more than 10 years ago and have 10 years ... So, and I have nothing against online courses, they are just a lot of them out there, and if you put something into the package of an online course, the price drops. It's like an online courses now, it's now encumbered by the same kind of the limitations of the package as a book is, if you buy [00:33:30] a book on Amazon. So, we're trying to break that paradigm too. Jonathan: It's fascinating, I could talk about pricing all day of course. I think you mentioned the 25 pricing books on your bookshelf, I think I have the same because ... In Pricing Creativity, the first section, I'm not sure, I think you had a different name for it, but the first sort of region of the book is, for people who are maybe considering buying it, it is like a crash course [00:34:00] in the best books on pricing that are out there. And you sort of skim across the service and pull up things that are important to this specific kind of reader, which I think is critical because I can't think of any of the pricing books, even implementing value pricing. None of them really speak down to a tactical level to a particular kind of profession. I find when teaching people some of these, let's be honest, these are pretty abstract concepts, [00:34:30] very, very intangible and tough to believe. There are like an optical illusions almost. And when people are new to these ideas, they need someone, the first couple of times at least, they need someone to be like, "No, no, go like this." And that, go like this, whatever it is, is different from vertical to vertical or it can be. This is why, I think for the right kind of reader, someone running an ad agency for example, or creative or design [00:35:00] agency, it's very, very actionable, which I think is going to earn a place on the desk of ... Like you said, I wouldn't be surprised if this was on the desk of every creative owner across the world. Blair: Certainly, we're not going to hit everyone, but that is my intent. And again, I'm traveling in support of that and I appreciate your point of view on the book, because you've identified what I've really tried to do in that first section, which [00:35:30] is called Principles. I really I'm trying to bubble up like the best of pricing theory from most of the books. And a lot of the best pricing books are heavy in theory and a little bit difficult on the application. Ron Baker's Implementing Value Pricing, I'm much a fan of his. Not only the knowledge, I've never met Ron, but we've corresponded. He just absorbs, his capacity to absorb and synthesize information is awesome, [00:36:00] and he's also an excellent writer. I would read anything that he's written, but when I read Implementing Value Pricing, which is his second book after Pricing On Purpose or Pricing and Purpose is the theory, Implementing Value Pricing basically builds on that. You can just read his second book and skip the first one, because he does kind of a recap of all the principles. And he gets into some great stuff, even some level of detail on implementation that I don't. But it is as I read those, a friend of mine said and I talk about this in the book, he [00:36:30] said, "You should write a book on pricing." and I said, "Oh man, there are some great books on pricing, the world doesn't need another one." He said, "Well, your clients aren't going to read those books." He's right. The owners of the typical creative firms, especially people who see themselves as creative first, and kind of price or sales people, business people second, they're not going to read those books. I needed to deliver the principles in a very interesting way, not go too deep into it, and then get right to [00:37:00] do this. So, the next section is, rules, six different rules, six things you always do when you're pricing. And then the section after that is the lengthier section, it's the tips and that's meant to be specific situation, specific guidance for a specific situation. Crafting your high priced options, crafting your low price options, making the margin in the middle. Dealing with retainers, final negotiations with procurement etc, etc. I imagine people read the first two sections and then when it comes time to craft their proposal, they'll go to the back, [00:37:30] the tools section has a quick review of the rules, and then they'll flip to the section in the tools, to get the specific nugget for the thing that they're building for that one client. So, yeah, that's how I've tried to write the book, and also I come from the world of sales. The reason, I talk about this in the book, the reason value based pricing fails in most creative firms, in fact most professional firms, it breaks down at the value conversation. And that's where the theory [00:38:00] of pricing meets the actual reality of selling. I know from my own experience, you cannot become an effective pricer, if you do not at the same time work on your skills as a salesperson. The third one would be negotiating, so selling, pricing and negotiating, it's really hard to be good at pricing if you do not also tackle selling and negotiating. And that's one of the perspectives [00:38:30] that I tried to bring to the book. Jonathan: Definitely, definitely it comes through. So, we're going to hug it out here. I think it's a great book, I think people who are in this space, it's going to be worth every penny. We're running a little long on time, so what I'd like to do is, ask you what might be kind of a hard question, I know this is really big on your radar right now, but I'm wondering, what do you see beyond this? And the reason I ask is [00:39:00] because you have an amazing post, I think it's called No Exit or No Exit is in the title about, never retiring. And how that changes your focus about the business and all of that. So, I'm wondering have you had that sort of head space to even think beyond this at all, Does this still fit into that public declaration? Blair: Yeah. So the post is called A Mission With No Exit, and that's when I realized from a couple of different sources that, and just seeing in my own clients [00:39:30] what the pattern that I saw is, when you get to a certain age like 55-ish, in some principles, maybe a little earlier, maybe a little bit later, but certainly, by the time somebody is nearing 60, they quit making brave decisions in their business. And it's because they have one eye on the exit, and I realized there are few things that damage a business more than the principle of starting to kind of slowly extricate herself from the business. And I just saw this pattern over and over again, and then this is an [00:40:00] idea I first heard from Dan Sullivan, the founder of Strategic Coach, a coaching organization. I have been in for my own professional development and will be in again, I'm not currently in it right now. But early on in their program, they just disabuse you of this idea, that you're ever going to retire, and the rallying cry is effectively die with your boots on. So, I bought into that early on, and also the idea that you'd never sell. Like you come from the software space, and where in the design world, the design world [00:40:30] is changing so fast these days, because the worlds of design, business consulting and software engineering are all coming together. And look, we don't even have agreed on what the names for this is right, now but it's a really exciting time. But one of the things that's going on, is the design is taking a lot of its cues from tech these days, and in Silicon Valley and the tech world, you see a lot of like spinning up and exiting businesses. I' not going to try to make a moral judgment on that other than to say, [00:41:00] that does not appeal to me. But I think that I see some owners of design businesses think that the proper thing to do is like, build this business, spin it up and exit it. And a lot of sales people like to open a sales conversation with the principle of the business that they're trying to sell to, with the question, what's your exit. I think it's such an insulting question, the implication that you should have an exit. Because I think if I could take away from our listeners, those who own businesses. [00:41:30] If I could take away from you, your right to retire and your right to sell your business, I guarantee you the implications are, that you would start doing today all of the things that you've been putting off. Including things in your personal life, you would arrive at a work life balance now. You would start taking vacations now, you would make the difficult decisions around positioning your firm, about the clients that you work with, about the people that you work with, about having a strong number two in place so that you can free yourself up to do [00:42:00] the more meaningful things, both in the business and in the life. You would structure your day to day so that you're doing things that you love and you're energized by, rather than kind of wading through these undesirable things, with this crazy idea that there's some sort of payoff for all your sacrifice, that all your sacrifice now will lead to a payoff in the future. That's a dangerous idea, and I would just love to disabuse everybody of that notion. So, I talk about that in the post A Mission With No Exit. I do this talk around it's called the [00:42:30] Five Constraints. That's the first constraint, I'd say, if I could impose this on you I would. So in terms of my business, I've got visibility into years of my business, and my plan is, I have no plans to retire, I have no plans to sell, I plan to die with my boots on. I do recognize I'm 51, I do recognize that once you're 70, I don't know where the age is, where the line is, but at some point, people, the way, the advice that they're likely to [00:43:00] take from you is different. Your role needs to change as you age, I know that. But I have lots after this, so much is after this. I'm so excited about what's after launching and pushing Pricing Creativity out into the world. I could live three lives and I would never be finished with the things that I want to do in this business. Rochelle: Hear, hear. Jonathan: Amen. Well, that's a fabulous place to wrap up, I think. Where can people, where's [00:43:30] the best place for people to find out more about you online, Blair? Blair: I'm at Winwithoutpitching.com, if you go to Priceandcreativity.com, that will take you to a page on the Win Without Pitching website. I'm Blair Enns on Twitter and also LinkedIn. I don't use other social media. For years I've been saying, I'm not convinced I'm going to stay on twitter much longer. But I am on Twitter now and I'm on LinkedIn now. And you can find me at Winwithoutpitching.com, where you can learn more [00:44:00] about the books and the training program. And if you want to reach out, you can do that through the website. Rochelle: Awesome. Jonathan: Very good. Well, dear listener, that is our show for this week. We hope you join us again next week for the Business of Authority. Bye. Rochelle: Bye. Bye.

Blair Enns delivers an impromptu master class on the strategies and tactics of value pricing creative work.

If you’re an entrepreneur, there’s no doubt you’ve struggled with pricing: How do you ensure you’re charging the best rate for your services and offerings, without leaving money on the table? On this episode, we invited Paul Klein to explain positioning and pricing for entrepreneurs.  He’s a positioning expert, entrepreneur, and business consultant. He also hosts his own podcast — Pricing is Positioning. What we talked about: Paul’s backstory The problem: ‘Most people undervalue their expertise’ Step 1: Identify which type of service business you want to be Step 2: Price on value Step 3: Control the comparison Step 4: Anchor high Pricing on value will set you apart from people who are selling from their own wallets.  Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast: Jonathan Stark  Implementing Value Pricing: A Radical Business Model for Professional Firms, by Ronald J. Baker  Pricing Creativity, by Blair Enns Pricing is Positioning podcast This interview is part of the How We Solve podcast. To hear more from industry experts who are solving everyday business problems, check us out on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify.