Podcasts about genoptix

Dr. Vamsi Velcheti and Dr. Charu Aggarwal discuss the evolution of ctDNA as a critical tool in precision oncology and its implications for lung cancer management, including its potential role in the early-stage setting. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Hello. I am Dr. Vamsi Velcheti, your guest host for the ASCO Daily News Podcast today. I am a professor of medicine and director of thoracic medical oncology at the Perlmutter Cancer Center at NYU Langone Health.  The management of small cell lung cancer has rapidly evolved over the past few decades, and today, molecular testing and biomarker testing for lung cancer are absolutely critical in terms of designing treatment options for our patients with metastatic non-small cell lung cancer. Today, I'm delighted to be joined by Dr. Charu Aggarwal for a discussion on ctDNA (circulating tumor DNA) and the role of ctDNA in lung cancer management. Dr. Aggarwal is the Leslye Heisler Professor of Lung Cancer Excellence and section chief of thoracic and head and neck oncology at University of Pennsylvania Abramson Cancer Center.  You'll find our full disclosures in the transcript of that episode.  Dr. Agrawal, it's great to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for being here. Dr. Charu Aggarwal: Thank you for having me. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Let's start off with setting the stage for ctDNA technology. These technologies have rapidly evolved from experimental conceptual stage to essential clinical tools for day-to-day clinical practice. Could you briefly discuss how recent advancements in ctDNA technologies are shaping our approach to precision medicine, especially in lung cancer? Dr. Charu Aggarwal: Absolutely. And you know, I think we need to just level set a little bit. What exactly is circulating tumor DNA? This is a way to assess exactly that. Every tumor sheds little pieces of tumor-derived DNA into the bloodstream, and this occurs in a variety of solid tumors. But now we have the technology to be able to derive this DNA that's actually being shed from the tumor into the bloodstream, these minute fragments of DNA, take them out, amplify them and sequence them with a variety of different mechanisms. They can be DNA sequencing alone, they can be DNA and RNA sequencing, they can be whole transcriptome sequencing. The technology, as you rightly pointed out, Dr. Velcheti, has significantly improved from just being able to look at circulating tumor DNA to now being able to amplify it, sequence it, and use it to offer personalized therapy. I think lung cancer is definitely the poster child for such an approach as we have a lot of data that has shown clinical utility and validity of being able to use circulating tumor DNA next-generation gene sequencing to guide therapy. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: There have been so many technological leaps. It's really impressive how far we've come to advance these sequencing platforms. Recent advances with AI and machine learning are also playing important roles in interpreting ctDNA data. How are these computational advances really enhancing clinical decision-making in day-to-day clinical practice? Dr. Charu Aggarwal: I think while we have firmly established the role of ctDNA in the management of patients with metastatic lung cancer, some of the approaches that you talked about are still experimental. So let me backtrack a little bit and set the stage for how we use ctDNA in clinical practice right now. I think most patients, when they come in with a new diagnosis of stage IV lung cancer, we want to test for biomarkers. And this should actually be the established standard. Now included in the NCCN guidelines and actually also international guidelines, is to consider using blood-based testing or plasma-based testing to look for biomarkers, not just tissue-based testing which had been our historical standard, but to use these plasma guided approaches to identify the seven to nine biomarkers that may be truly implicated in either first- or second-line therapy that are called as your immediately actionable mutations.  What you're talking about is AI computational methods. I think there's a lot of excitement about how we can use genomic signatures that are derived from either tissue or ctDNA-based biomarker testing, combine it with radiomic features, combine it with histologic features, look at H & E patterns, use AI algorithmic learning to be able to actually predict recurrence scores, or can we actually come up with predictive signatures that may be extremely helpful?  So, I think some of the techniques and technologies that you're talking about are incoming. They are provocative. I think they're very exciting, but very early. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: I think it's really amazing how many advances we have with these platforms. You know, the challenge really is the significant gap in terms of uptake of molecular testing. Even today, in 2025, there are significant gaps in terms of all metastatic lung cancer patients being tested for all biomarkers.  So, why do you think there's such a challenge in testing patients with lung cancer? In most academic practices, we try to achieve 100% testing for all our patients, but we know from recent studies that that's not the case across the country. What do you think the gaps are? Dr. Charu Aggarwal: Biomarker testing is so essential, like you pointed out, for us to be able to guide the right therapy for our patients. And we see this in our practice every day as you and I see patients with lung cancer, that a large proportion of our patients either don't get tested or they start therapy before their test results come back. So, I think this is a real problem.  However, to add some optimism to this problem, I do think that we are making a move in the right direction. So, four or five years ago, there was a lot of data being presented at national meetings, including ones from the American Society of Clinical Oncology, where we saw that, nationally, the rates of biomarker testing were probably in the rate of 40 to 50%. However, now with the availability of both tissue and plasma, I do think that the rates of biomarker testing are increasing. And if you were to survey a sample or even perform retrospective data research, I believe that the number is closer to 70% of all patients with metastatic non-small cell lung cancer.  And you know, you asked why is it not 100%? I think there are many reasons. I think the number one reason is tissue availability. Many times, the biopsies are small, or the tumor is very necrotic. So, either the tissue quantity itself is small, or the tissue quantity is insufficient to perform gene sequencing. And that's exactly where plasma comes in. When you don't have tissue availability, we have shown, as have others, that you can use plasma effectively to increase the proportion of patients who are not only tested but also receive the right therapy. I think there are also other barriers, including inertia. You know, I think this is both patient and physician inertia, where patients want to get started quickly, they don't want to wait. Physicians are very busy and sometimes want to be able to deliver treatment as soon as possible. We have seen there are some institutional barriers. Not every institution has in-house gene sequencing testing. So how do you really operationalize, send out these tests in a fast, efficient manner so that you get results back? Is it a pathologist who sends out the test? Is it the medical oncologist? Is it the pulmonologist or the interventionalist? I think there is this need to develop reflex testing mechanisms which some institutions do really well and some don't. And then finally, there are financial implications as well. How do we do this in a most cost-efficient fashion?  So there are many barriers, but I'm happy to say that we are making a move in the right direction as we are understanding that it's important to do it, it's easy to do it maybe with a value add of plasma, and finally, as you said, you know, as these technologies become more available, they're actually getting more cost-effective. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Dr. Aggarwal, you've been at the cutting edge of these advanced platforms and testing. So, what do you do in UPenn? How do you handle all these barriers and what is your workflow for patients in University of Pennsylvania? Dr. Charu Aggarwal: One of the things that I mentioned to you was there may be institutional barriers when it comes to gene sequencing. So, we actually, several years ago now, instituted a very robust reflex testing paradigm where almost all of our patients, regardless of stage, with a non-squamous non-small cell lung cancer diagnosis, would automatically be reflexively sent to our molecular pathology lab where they would get gene sequencing both for the DNA as well as with an RNA fusion-based platform. And the reason we did this was because we wanted to expedite and reduce the turnaround time. We also wanted to ensure that we were not just doing DNA testing, which I think is really important for our listeners here. There are many fusions as well as certain skipping mutations like MET exon 14 that may be missed on DNA testing alone. So, it's really incredibly important to run both DNA and RNA samples.  So, we do this routinely, and based on our research and others, what we also do routinely is that we send concurrent tissue and liquid biopsies or plasma MGS testing upon initial diagnosis. For example, if a patient comes in with a diagnosis of stage IV non-small cell lung cancer, their tissue might already be at my molecular pathology lab based on the reflex mechanism that I just described to you. But upon their initial meeting with me, we will send off plasma. And I will tell you this, that Penn is not just one institution, right? We have a large network of sites. And as part of my research, one of the things that we wanted to do was implement wide scale means to improve biomarker testing. And we have done this with the use of technology like you mentioned, Dr. Velcheti: How can we actually use AI? How can we leverage our electronic medical record to identify these patients? So, we have a nudge-based mechanism which actually facilitates the pending of orders for biomarker testing for patients with new diagnosis of metastatic non-small cell lung cancer. And we are looking at our rates of biomarker testing but also rates of completion of biomarker testing before first-line therapy started. So many of our participating sites are clusters for our randomized control trial to increase molecular testing. And I'm really excited about the fact that we're able to implement it not just at our main satellite, downtown Penn Hospital, but also across our community. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: I think that's great. Thank you so much for those insights, Dr. Aggarwal. I think it's so important because having the best technology is just not enough. I think implementation science is actually a real thing. And I think we need to all learn from each other, advance these things.  So, I want to ask you about the new emerging paradigm in terms of using ctDNA. Of course, in the metastatic setting, we've been using ctDNA for molecular profiling for a while now. But the recent data around monitoring early-stage disease, especially post-operative monitoring, is an exciting area. There are a lot of opportunities there. Could you please talk us through the emerging data in lung cancer and how do we incorporate ctDNA-based monitoring MRD or should we even do that right now? Is the data ripe enough for us to kind of deploy this in a clinical setting? Dr. Charu Aggarwal: I think using ctDNA in the early-stage setting is our next frontier in lung cancer. I think naturally we have been able to successfully deploy this in the stage 4 setting. It made a meaningful difference in the lives of our patients, and we are a little bit behind the A ball in terms of how MRD is used in lung cancer. Because, you know, colorectal cancer has already done large-randomized trials based on ctDNA and MRD. It's routinely used in hematological malignancy. So, it makes sense that we should start to use it.  However, when I say this, I say this with excitement, but also a little bit of gentle caution saying that we actually don't quite have the prospective randomized data just yet on how to deploy. Yes, intuitively we would say that if you detect ctDNA and MRD, that patient is at higher risk. So, we identify that, but we actually don't know what to do with the second part of that information once you identify a patient with high risk. Are there other techniques that we can then come in with or other drugs that we can come in with to modify that risk? And that's the thing that I think we don't have right now. The other thing that we don't have right now is the timing of the assay, when to use it. Is it to be tested in the pre-op setting? Is the post-op test the best timing, or is it monitoring and dynamics of ctDNA that are most important? And the third thing I will say in terms of precautionary cause is that we don't know which test just yet. There are actually a few commercially available tests out in the market right now. We know about them and I'm sure our community colleagues know about them. Some of them even have Medicare approval. However, many of these tests are currently tissue informed. We don't have tissue uninformed tests. And what does that mean? Tissue uninformed means that you actually take a piece of tumor tissue, you sequence that tumor and based on the gene profile of that tumor, you actually design a panel that can then be used to track the mutations in the blood-based pack. This requires, as the name implies, a tumor. So can this be used in the pre-op setting is a large question. Because coming back to the idea of tissue availability, you and I both know that when we get FNAS and we use it for PDL-1 testing and we use it for gene sequencing, there often isn't enough tissue left for us to then either do whole genome sequencing or even whole transcriptome sequencing, which may be required to build some of these assays.  I think the future lies in this idea of tumor uninformed assays because if we could go to a blood only or a plasma only approach using novel signatures like proteomics or methylation, I think that's where the future is. But we're still a little bit early in the discovery stages of those, as well as to come are the validation stages so that we can be confident that these blood-only assays may actually give us an answer.  So, with those three cautionary notes, I would say that optimism is still very high. I think ctDNA MRD is the right place to think about. We need to do this for our patients to better identify high-risk patients and to think about means to escalate treatment for them. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Yeah, I completely agree, and I think with all the changes and evolution of treatments in the management of early-stage lung cancer now with neoadjuvant and adjuvant, there's really a need for an escalation and de-escalation of therapies post-operatively. And I think it's a huge opportunity. I think we all could learn from our colorectal colleagues. I think they've done a really good job at actually doing prospective trials in this setting. I think we're kind of a little behind here.  Dr. Charu Aggarwal: I think in the metastatic setting there are ongoing trials to look at this exact question. How do you choose an appropriate first-line therapy, a monitor ctDNA at the six-week trial? It's being evaluated in a trial called the “Shedders” trial, where if patients are still ctDNA positive at six weeks, then you can escalate treatment because they haven't “cleared” their ctDNA. There has been a lot of research that has shown that lack of ctDNA clearance in the metastatic setting may be a poor prognostic factor. We and others have shown that if you do clear your ctDNA or if you have a reduction in ctDNA load overall, that that is directly related to both an improved progression-free survival and overall survival. This has been shown with both tissue informed and uninformed assays. So I think it's very clear that yes, you can track it. I think the question is: Can you apply that data to the early-stage setting? And that's an open research question. A lot of groups are looking at that and I think it's completely reasonable, especially to determine duration of therapy, to determine optimal timing, optimal timing of scans even. And I think these are just such interesting questions that will be answered in the future. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: And also like a kind of early detection of resistance patterns that might inform early initiation of combination strategies. And I think it's a lot of opportunities I think yet to be explored. A lot of exciting things to come and I'm sure we'll kind of see more and more data in the next few years.  Dr. Aggarwal, thank you so much for sharing your fantastic insights today on the ASCO Daily News Podcast. It's been a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Hope to see you at ASCO. Dr. Charu Aggarwal: Thank you so much. This was great and I remain so excited by all of the possibilities to improve outcomes for our patients. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Thank you to all the listeners for your time today. If you value the insights that you hear from the ASCO Daily News Podcast, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Thank you so much. Disclaimer: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. Follow today's speakers:  Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti  @VamsiVelcheti  @vamsivelcheti.bsky.social Dr. Charu Aggarwal @CharuAggarwalMD   Follow ASCO on social media:  @ASCO on X (formerly Twitter)  ASCO on Bluesky ASCO on Facebook  ASCO on LinkedIn    Disclosures: Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti:  Honoraria: Glavanize Therapeutics Consulting or Advisory Role: Bristol-Myers Squibb, Merck, AstraZeneca/MedImmune, GSK, Amgen, Taiho Oncology, Novocure, Takeda, Janssen Oncology, Picture Health, Regeneron Research Funding (Inst.): Genentech, Trovagene, Eisai, OncoPlex Diagnostics, Alkermes, NantOmics, Genoptix, Altor BioScience, Merck, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Atreca, Heat Biologics, Leap Therapeutics, RSIP Vision, GlaxoSmithKline  Dr. Charu Aggarwal: Consulting or Advisory Role: AstraZeneca, Daiichi Sankyo/AstraZeneca, Regeneron/Sanofi, Pfizer, Boehringer Ingelheim, Takeda, Arcus Biosciences, Gilead Sciences, Novocure, Abbvie Speakers' Bureau: AstraZeneca (an immediate family member) Research Funding (Inst): Merck Sharp & Dohme, AstraZeneca/MedImmune, Daiichi Sankyo/AstraZeneca, Lilly@Loxo, Candel Therapeutics  

Drs. Vamsi Velcheti and Nathan Pennell discuss novel approaches and key studies in lung cancer that were showcased at the 2024 ASCO Annual Meeting, including the Plenary abstracts LAURA and ADRIATIC.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Hello, I am Dr. Vamsi Velcheti, your guest host for the ASCO Daily News Podcast today. I'm a professor of medicine and director of thoracic medical oncology at the Perlmutter Cancer Center at NYU Langone Health. Today, I'm joined by Dr. Nate Pennell, the co-director of the Cleveland Clinic Lung Cancer Program and the vice chair of clinical research at the Taussig Cancer Center in Cleveland Clinic. Dr. Pennell is also the editor-in-chief of the ASCO Educational Book. Today, we will be discussing practice-changing abstracts and the exciting advances in lung cancer that were featured at the ASCO 2024 Annual Meeting. You'll find our full disclosures in the transcript of the episode. Nate, we're delighted to have you back on the podcast today. Thanks for being here. It was an exciting Annual Meeting with a lot of important updates in lung cancer. Dr. Nate Pennell: Thanks, Vamsi. I'm glad to be back. And yes, it was a huge year for lung. So I'm glad that we got a chance to discuss all of these late-breaking abstracts that we didn't get to talk about during the prelim podcast. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Let's dive in. Nate, it was wonderful to see all the exciting data, and one of the abstracts in the Plenary Session caught my attention, LBA3. In this study, the investigators did a comparative large-scale effectiveness trial of early palliative care delivered via telehealth versus in-person among patients with advanced non-small cell lung cancer. And the study is very promising. Could you tell us a little bit more about the study and your take-home messages? Dr. Nate Pennell: Yes, I think this was a very important study. So just to put things in perspective, it's now been more than a decade since Dr. Jennifer Temel and her group at Massachusetts General Hospital did a randomized study that showed that early interventions with palliative medicine consultation in patients with advanced non-small cell lung cancer significantly improves quality of life and in her initial study, perhaps even overall survival. And since then, there have been numerous studies that have basically reproduced this effect, showing that getting palliative medicine involved in people with advanced cancer, multiple different cancer types, really, has benefits.  The difficulty in applying this has been that palliative care-trained specialists are few and far between, and many people simply don't have easy access to palliative medicine-trained physicians and providers. So with that in mind, Dr. Temel and her group designed a randomized study called the REACH PC trial, where 1,250 patients were randomized with advanced non-small cell lung cancer to either in-person palliative medicine visits which is sort of the standard, or one in-person assessment followed by monthly telemedicine video visits with palliative medicine. Primary endpoint was essentially to show that it was equivalent in terms of quality of life and patient satisfaction. And what was exciting about this was that it absolutely was. I mean, pretty much across the board in all the metrics that were measured, the quality-of-life, the patient satisfaction, the anxiety and depression scores, all were equivalent between doing telemedicine visits and in-person visits. And this hopefully will now extend the ability to get this kind of benefit to a much larger group of people who don't have to geographically be located near a palliative medicine program. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Yeah, I think it's a great abstract, Nate and I actually was very impressed by the ASCO committee for selecting this for the Plenary. We typically don't see supportive care studies highlighted in such a way at ASCO. This really highlights the need for true interdisciplinary care for our patients. And as you said, this study will clearly address that unmet need in terms of providing access to palliative care for a lot of patients who otherwise wouldn't have access. I'm really glad to see those results. Dr. Nate Pennell: It was. And that really went along with Dr. Schuchter's theme this year of bringing care to patients incorporating supportive care. So I agree with you.  Now, moving to some of the other exciting abstracts in the Plenary Session. So we were talking about how this was a big year for lung cancer. There were actually 3 lung cancer studies in the Plenary Session at the Annual Meeting. And let's move on to the second one, LBA4, the LAURA study. This was the first phase 3 study to assess osimertinib, an EGFR tyrosine kinase inhibitor, in patients with EGFR mutant, unresectable stage III non-small cell lung cancer. What are your takeaways from this study?  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: This is certainly an exciting study, and all of us in the lung community have been kind of eagerly awaiting the results of the study. As you know, for stage III non-small cell lung cancer patients who are unresectable, the standard of care has been really established by the PACIFIC study with the consolidation durvalumab after definitive concurrent chemoradiation. The problem with that study is it doesn't really answer the question of the role of immunotherapy in patients who are never-smokers, and especially in patients who are EGFR positive tumors, where the role of immunotherapy in a metastatic setting has always been questioned. And in fact, there have been several studies as you know, in patients with EGFR mutation positive metastatic lung cancer where immunotherapy has not been that effective. In fact, in the subgroup analysis in the PACIFIC study, patients with EGFR mutation did not really benefit from adding immunotherapy.  So this is an interesting study where they looked at patients with locally advanced, unresectable stage III patients and they randomized the patients 2:1 to osimertinib versus placebo following concurrent or sequential tumor radiation. The primary endpoint for the study was progression free survival, and a total of 216 patients were enrolled and 143 patients received a study treatment, which is osimertinib, and 73 received placebo. And 80% of the patients on the placebo arm crossed over to getting treatment at the time of progression.  So most of us in the lung cancer community were kind of suspecting this would be a positive trial for PFS. But however, I think the magnitude of the difference was truly remarkable. The median PFS in the osimertinib arm was 39.1 months and placebo was 5.6 months and the hazard ratio of 0.16. So it was a pretty striking difference in terms of DFS benefit with the osimertinib consolidation following chemoradiation. So it was truly a positive study for the primary endpoint and the benefit was seen across all the subgroups and the safety was no unexpected safety signals other than a slight increase in the radiation pneumonitis rates in patients receiving osimertinib and other GI and skin tox were kind of as expected. In my opinion, it's truly practice changing and I think patients with EGFR mutation should not be getting immunotherapy consolidation post chemoradiation. Dr. Nate Pennell: I completely agree with you. I think that this really just continues the understanding of the use of osimertinib in EGFR-mutant lung cancer in earlier stages of disease. We know from the ADAURA trial, presented twice in the Plenary at the ASCO Annual Meeting, that for IB, stage II and resectable IIIA, that you prolong progression free or disease free survival. So this is a very similar, comparable situation, but at an even higher risk population or the unresectable stage III patients. I think that the most discussion about this was the fact that the osimertinib is indefinite and that it is distinct from the adjuvant setting where it's being given for three years and then stopped. But I think all of us had some pause when we saw that after three years, especially in the stage III patients from ADAURA, that there were clearly an increase in recurrences after stopping the drug, suggesting that there are patients who are not cured with a time limited treatment, or at least with 3 years of treatment.  The other thing that is sobering from the study, and was pointed out by the discussant, Dr. Lecia Sequist, is if you look at the two-year disease-free survival in the placebo arm, it was only 13%, meaning almost no one was really cured with chemo radiation alone. And that really suggests that this is not that different from a very early stage IV population where indefinite treatment really is the standard of care. I wonder whether you think that's a reasonable approach. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: I completely agree with you, Nate, and I don't think we cure a majority of our patients with stage III, and less so in patients who have EGFR-mutant, stage III locally advanced. As you just pointed out, I think very few patients actually make it that far along. And I think there's a very high rate of CNS micrometastatic disease or just systemic micrometastatic disease in this population that an effective systemic therapy of osimertinib can potentially have long term outcomes. But again, we perhaps don't cure a vast majority of them. I think that the next wave of studies should incorporate ctDNA and MRD-based assays to potentially identify those patients who could potentially go off osimertinib at some point. But, again, outside of a trial, I would not be doing that. But I think it's definitely an important question to ask to identify de-escalation strategies with osimertinib. And even immunotherapy for that matter, I think we all know that not all patients really require years and years of immunotherapy. They're still trying to figure out how to use immunotherapy in these post-surgical settings, using the MRD to de-escalate adjuvant therapies. So I think we have to have some sort of strategy here. But outside of a clinical trial, I will not be using those assays here to cite treatments, but certainly an important question to ask.  Moving on to the other exciting late-breaking abstracts, LBA5, the ADRIATIC study. This is another study which was also in the plenary session. This study was designed to address this question of consolidation immunotherapy, post chemo radiation for limited-stage small cell cancer, the treatment arms being durvalumab tremelimumab, and durvalumab observation. So what do you think about the study? This study also received a lot of applause and a lot of attention at the ASCO meeting. Dr. Nate Pennell: It was. It was remarkable to be there and actually watch this study as well as the LAURA study live, because when the disease free survival curves and in the ADRIATIC study, the overall survival curves were shown, the speakers were both interrupted by standing ovation of applause just because there was a recognition that the treatment was changing kind of before our eyes. I thought that was really neat. So in this case, I think this is truly a historic study, not necessarily because it's going to necessarily be an earth shakingly positive study. I mean, it was clearly a positive study, but more simply because of the disease in which it was done, and that is limited-stage small cell lung cancer. We really have not had a change in the way we've treated limited-stage small cell lung cancer, probably 25 years. Maybe the last significant advances in that were the advent of concurrent chemotherapy and radiation and then the use of PCI with a very modest improvement in survival. Both of those, I would say, are still relatively modest advances.  In this case, the addition of immunotherapy, which we know helps patients with small cell lung cancer - it's of course the standard of care in combination chemotherapy for extensive stage small cell lung cancer - in this case, patients who completed concurrent chemo radiation were then randomized to either placebo or durvalumab, as well as the third arm of durvalumab tremelimumab, which is not yet been recorded, and co primary endpoints were overall survival and progression free survival. And extraordinarily, there was an improvement in overall survival seen at the first analysis, with a median overall survival of 55.9 months compared to 33.4 months, hazard ratio of 0.73. So highly clinically and statistically significant, that translates at three years to a difference in overall survival of 56.5%, compared to 47.6%, or almost 10% improvement in survival at three years.  There was also a nearly identical improvement in progression-free survival, also with a hazard ratio of 0.76, suggesting that there's a modest number of patients who benefit. But it seems to be a clear improvement with the curves plateauing out. In my opinion, this is very comparable to what we saw with the PACIFIC study in stage III, unresectable non-small cell lung cancer, which immediately changed practice back when that first was reported. And I expect that this will change practice pretty much immediately for small cell as well. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Yeah, I completely agree, Nate. I think it's an exciting advance in patients with limited-stage small cell lung cancer. For sure, it's practice-changing, and I think the results were exciting.  So one thing that really intrigued me was in the extensive-stage setting, the benefit was very mediocre with one-to-two month overall survival benefit in both the PACIFIC and in IMpower trial. Here we are seeing almost two-year of median OS benefit. I was kind of puzzled by that, and I thought it may have to do with patients receiving radiation. And we've seen that with the PACIFIC, and makes you wonder if both the CASPIAN and the IMpower studies actually did not allow consolidation thoracic radiation. Hypothetically, if they had allowed consolidation thoracic radiation, perhaps we would have seen better outcomes. Any thoughts on that? Dr. Nate Pennell: We've been trying to prove that radiation and immunotherapy somehow go together better for a long time. Going back to the first description of the abscopal effect, and I'm not sure if I necessarily believe that to be the case, but in this setting where we truly are trying to cure people rather than merely prolong their survival, maybe this is the situation where it truly is more beneficial. I think what we're seeing is something very similar to what we're seen in PACIFIC, where in the stage IV setting, some people have long term survival with immunotherapy, but it's relatively modest. But perhaps in the curative setting, you're seeing more of an impact. Certainly, looking at these curves, we'll have to see with another couple of years to follow up. But a three-year survival of 56% is pretty extraordinary, and I look forward to seeing if this really maintains over the next couple of years follow up.  Moving beyond the Plenary, there were actually lots of really exciting presentations, even outside the Plenary section. One that I think probably got at least as much attention as the ones that we've already discussed today was actually an update of an old trial that's been presented for several prior years. And I'm curious to get your take on why you thought this was such a remarkable study. And we're talking about the LBA8503, which was the 5-year update from the CROWN study, which looked at previously untreated ALK-positive advanced non-small cell in cancer patients randomly assigned to lorlatinib, the third generation ALK inhibitor, versus crizotinib, the first generation ALK inhibitor. What was so exciting about this study, and why were people talking about it?  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Yeah, I agree, Nate. We've seen the data in the past, right? Like on the CROWN data, just first like a quick recap. This is the CROWN study, like the phase 3 study of third generation ALK inhibitor lorlatinib. So global randomized phase 3 study in patients with metastatic disease randomized to lorlatinib versus crizotinib, which is a controller. So the primary endpoint was PFS, and we've seen the results in the past of the CROWN readout quoted, with a positive study and the lorlatinib received FDA approval in the frontline setting. But the current study that was presented at the ASCO annual meeting is a kind of a postdoc analysis of five years. The endpoint for the study with central review stopped at three years, and this is actually a follow up beyond that last readout. Interestingly, in this study, when they looked at the median PFS at five years, the lorlatinib arm did not reach a median PFS even at five years and the hazard ratio is 0.19, which is kind of phenomenal in some ways. At 5 years, the majority of the patients were still on the drug. So that's quite incredible. And the benefit was more profound in patients with brain mets with a hazard ratio of 0.08. And again, speaking to the importance of brain penetrant, small molecule inhibitors, and target therapy, the safety profile, there were no additional safety signals noted in the study. We kind of know about the side effects of lorlatinib already from previous studies readouts. No unusual long-term toxicities.  I should note though, about 40% of patients did have CNS, AEs grade 1, 2 CNS toxicities on the  lorlatinib arm. And the other interesting thing that was also reported in the trial was dose reduction of lorlatinib did not have an impact on the PFS, which is interesting in my opinion. They also did some subgroup analysis, biomarker testing, biomarker populations. Patients who had P53 cooperation did much better with lorlatinib versus crizotinib. So overall, the other thing that they also had shown on the trial was the resistance mechanisms that were seen with lorlatinib were very different than what we are used to seeing with the earlier generation ALK inhibitors. The majority of the patients who develop resistance have bypass mechanisms and alterations in MAP kinase pathway PI3K/MTOR/PTEN pathway, suggesting that lorlatinib is a very potent ALK inhibitor and on target ALK mutations don't happen as frequently as we see with the earlier generation ALK inhibitors.  So I think this really begs the question, should we offer lorlatinib to all our patients with metastatic ALK-positive tumors? I think looking at the long-term data, it's quite tempting to say ‘yes', but I think at the same time we have to take into consideration patient safety tolerability. And again, the competitor arm here is crizotinib. So lorlatinib suddenly seems to be, again, cross trial comparisons, but I think the long-term outcomes here are really phenomenal. But at the same time, I think we've got to kind of think about patient because these patients are on these drugs for years, they have to live with all the toxicities. And I think the patient preferences and safety profile matters in terms of what drug we recommend to patients. Dr. Nate Pennell: I completely agree with you. I think the right answer, is that this has to be an individual discussion with patients. The results are incredibly exciting. I mean, the two-year progression free survival was 70%, and the five-year, three years later is still 60%. Only 10% of people are failing over the subsequent three years. And the line is pretty flat. And as you said, even with brain metastases, the median survival is in reach. It's really extraordinary. Moreover, while we do talk about the significant toxicities of lorlatinib, I thought it was really interesting that only 5% of people were supposedly discontinued the drug because of treatment related AEs, which meant that with dose reduction and management, it seems as though most patients were able to continue on the drug, even though they, as you mentioned, were taking it for several years.  That being said, all of us who've had experience with the second-generation drugs like alectinib and brigatinib, compared to the third-generation drug lorlatinib, can speak to the challenges of some of the unique toxicities that go along with it. I don't think this is going to be a drug for everyone, but I do think it is now worth bringing it up and discussing it with the patients most of the time now. And I do think that there will be many people for whom this is going to be a good choice, which is exciting. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Absolutely, completely agree. And I think there are newer ALK inhibitors in clinical development which have cleaner and better safety profiles. So we'll have to kind of wait and see how those pan out.  Moving on to the other exciting abstract, LBA8509, the KRYSTAL-12 study. LBA8509 is a phase 3 study looking at adagrasib versus docetaxel in patients with previously treated advanced metastatic non-small cell cancer with KRASG12C mutation. Nate, there's been a lot of hype around this trial. You've seen the data. Do you think it's practice-changing? How does it differentiate with the other drug that's already FDA approved, sotorasib?  Dr. Nate Pennell: Yeah, this is an interesting one. I think we've all been very excited in recent years about the identification of KRASG12C mutations as targetable mutations. We know that this represents about half of KRAS mutations in patients with non-small cell lung cancer, adenocarcinoma, and there are two FDA-approved drugs. Sotorasib was the first and adagrasib shortly thereafter. We already had seen the CodeBreaK 200 study, which was a phase 3 study of sotorasib versus docetaxel that did modestly prolong progression free survival compared to docetaxel, although did not seem to necessarily translate to an improvement in overall survival. And so now, coming on the heels of that study, the KRYSTAL-12 study compared adagrasib, also the KRASG12C  inhibitor versus docetaxel and those with previously treated non-small cell with KRASG12C. And it did significantly improve progression free survival with a hazard ratio of 0.58. Although when you look at the median numbers, the median PFS was only 5.5 months with the adagrasib arm compared to 3.8 months with docetaxel. So while it is a significant and potentially clinically significant difference, it is still, I would say a modest improvement.   And there were some pretty broad improvements across all the different subgroups, including those with brain metastases. It did improve response rate significantly. So 32% response rate without adagrasib, compared to only 9% with docetaxel. It's about what you would expect with chemotherapy. And very importantly, in this patient population, there was activity in the brain with an intracranial overall response rate among those who had measurable brain metastases of 40%. So certainly important and probably that would distinguish it from drugs like docetaxel, which we don't expect to have a lot of intracranial toxicity. There is certainly a pattern of side effects that go along with that adagrasib, so it does cause especially GI toxicity, like diarrhea, nausea, vomiting, transaminitis. All of these were actually, at least numerically, somewhat higher in the adagrasib arm than in docetaxel, a lot more hematologic toxicity with the docetaxel. But overall, the number of serious adverse events were actually pretty well matched between the two groups. So it wasn't really a home run in terms of favorable toxicity with that adagrasib.  So the question is: “In the absence of any data yet on overall survival, should this change practice?” And I'm not sure it's going to change practice, because I do think that based on the accelerated approval, most physicians are already offering the G12C inhibitors like sotorasib and adagrasib, probably more often than chemotherapy, I think based on perceived improvement in side effects and higher response rates, modestly longer progression-free survival, so I think most people think that represents a modest improvement over chemotherapy. And so I think that will continue. It will be very interesting, however, when the overall survival report is out, if it is not significantly better, what the FDA is going to do when they look at these drugs.  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Thanks so much. Very well summarized. And I do agree they look more similar than dissimilar. I think CodeBreaK-200 and the KRYSTAL-12, they kind of are very identical. I should say, though I was a little surprised with the toxicity profile of adagrasib. It seemed, I mean, not significantly, but definitely seemed worse than the earlier readouts that we've seen. The GI tox especially seems much worse on this trial. I'm kind of curious why, but if I recall correctly, I think 5% of the patients had grade 3 diarrhea. A significant proportion of patients had grade 3 nausea and vomiting. And the other complicating thing here is you can't use a lot of the antiemetics because of the QT issues. So that's another problem. But I think it's more comparable to sotorasib, in my opinion.  Dr. Nate Pennell: While this is exciting, I like to think of this as the early days of EGFR, when we were using gefitinib and erlotinib. They were certainly advances, but we now have drugs that are much more effective and long lasting in these patients. And I think that the first-generation inhibitors like sotorasib and adagrasib, while they certainly benefit patients, now is just the beginning. There's a lot of research going on, and we're not going to talk about some of the other abstracts presented, but some of the next generation G12C inhibitors, for example, olomorasib, which did have also in the same session, a presentation in combination with pembrolizumab that had a very impressive response rate with potentially fewer side effects, may end up replacing the first generation drugs when they get a little bit farther along. And then moving on to another one, which I think potentially could change practice. I am curious to hear your take on it, was the LBA8505, which was the PALOMA-3 study. This was interesting in that it compared two different versions of the same drug. So amivantamab, the bispecific, EGFR and MET, which is already approved for EGFR exon 20 non-small cell lung cancer, in this case, in more typical EGFR-mutated non-small cell lung cancer in combination with osimertinib with the intravenous amivantamab, compared to the subcutaneous formulation of amivantamab. Why would this be an important study? Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: I found this study really interesting as well, Nate. And as you know, amivantamab has been FDA approved for patients with exon 20 mutation. And also, we've had, like two positive readouts in patients with classical EGFR mutations. One, the MARIPOSA study in the frontline setting and the MARIPOSA-2, in the second-line post osimertinib setting. For those studies, the intravenous amivantamab was used as a treatment arm, and the intravenous amivantamab had a lot of baggage to go along with it, like the infusion reactions and VTEs and other classic EGFR related toxicity, skin toxicities. So the idea behind developing the subcutaneous formulation of amivantamab was mainly to reduce the burden of infusion, infusion time and most importantly, the infusion related reactions associated with IV formulation.  In a smaller phase 2 study, the PALOMA study, they had looked at various dosing schemas like, subcutaneous formulation, and they found that the infusion related reactions were very, very low with the subcutaneous formulation. So that led to the design of this current study that was presented, the PALOMA-3 study. This was for patients who had classical EGFR mutations like exon 19, L858R. The patients were randomized 1:1 to subcutaneous amivantamab with lazertinib versus IV amivantamab plus lazertinib. The endpoints for the study, it's a non-inferiority study with co primary endpoints of C trough and C2 AUC, Cycle 2 AUC. They were looking at those pharmacological endpoints to kind of demonstrate comparability to the IV formulation. So in this study, they looked at these pharmacokinetic endpoints and they were essentially identical. Both subcutaneous and IV formulations were compatible. And in terms of clinical efficacy as well, the response rate was identical, no significant differences. Duration of response was also identical. The PFS also was comparable to the IV formulation. In fact, numerically, the subcutaneous arm was a little better, though not significant. But it appears like, you know, the overall clinical and pharmacological profile of the subcutaneous amivantamab was comparable. And most interestingly, the AE profile, the skin toxicity was not much different. However, the infusion reactions were substantially lower, 13% with the subcutaneous amivantamab and 66% with IV amivantamab. And also, interestingly, the VTE rates were lower with the subcutaneous version of amivantamab. There was still a substantial proportion of patients, especially those who didn't have prophylactic anticoagulation. 17% of the patients with the subcutaneous amivantamab had VTE versus 26% with IV amivantamab. With prophylaxis, which is lower in both IV and subcutaneous, but still subcutaneous formulation at a lower 7% versus 12% with the IV amivantamab.  So overall, I think this is an interesting study, and also the authors had actually presented some interesting data on administration time. I've never seen this before. Patients reported convenience using a modified score of patient convenience, essentially like patients having to spend a lot of time in the infusion site and convenience of the patient getting the treatment. And it turns out, and no surprise, that subcutaneous amivantamab was found to be more convenient for patients.  So, Nate, I want to ask you your take on this. In a lot of our busy infusion centers, the time it takes for those patients to get the infusion does matter, right? And I think in our clinic where we are kind of fully booked for the infusion, I think having the patients come in and leave in 15, 20 minutes, I think it adds a lot of value to the cancer center operation.  Dr. Nate Pennell: Oh, I completely agree. I think the efficacy results were reassuring. I think the infusion related reaction difference, I think is a huge difference. I mean, I have given a fair amount of amivantamab, and I would say the published IRR rate of 66%, 67% I would say, is maybe even underestimates how many patients get some kind of reaction from that, although it really is a first dose phenomenon. And I think that taking that down to 13% is a tremendous advance. I think fusion share time is not trivial as we get busier and busier. I know our cancer center is also very full and it becomes challenging to schedule people, and being able to do a five-minute treatment versus a five-hour treatment makes a big difference for patients.  It's interesting, there was one slide that was presented from an efficacy standpoint. I'm curious about your take on this. They showed that the overall survival was actually better in the subcu amivantamab arm, hazard ratio of 0.62. Now, this was only an exploratory endpoint. They sort of talk about perhaps some rationale for why this might be the case. But at the very least, I think we can be reassured that it's not less effective to give it and does seem to be more tolerable and so I would expect that this hopefully will be fairly widely adopted. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Yeah, I agree. I think this is a welcome change. Like, I think the infusion reactions and the resources it takes to get patients through treatments. I think it's definitely a win-win for patients and also the providers.  And with that, we come to the conclusion of the podcast. Nate, thank you so much for the fantastic insights today. Our listeners will find all the abstracts discussed today in the transcripts of the episode. Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Pennell.  Dr. Nate Pennell: Oh, thanks for inviting me. It's always fun to talk about all these exciting advances for our patients. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Thanks to our listeners for your time today. You will find links to all the abstracts discussed today in the transcript of the episode. Finally, if you value the insights that you hear from ASCO Daily News Podcast, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcast.   Disclaimer: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.   Find out more about today's speakers:    Dr. Vamsi Velcheti  @VamsiVelcheti    Dr. Nathan Pennell  @n8pennell    Follow ASCO on social media:      @ASCO on Twitter    ASCO on Facebook    ASCO on LinkedIn      Disclosures:  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti:  Honoraria: ITeos Therapeutics  Consulting or Advisory Role: Bristol-Myers Squibb, Merck, Foundation Medicine, AstraZeneca/MedImmune, Novartis, Lilly, EMD Serono, GSK, Amgen, Elevation Oncology, Taiho Oncology, Merus  Research Funding (Inst.): Genentech, Trovagene, Eisai, OncoPlex Diagnostics, Alkermes, NantOmics, Genoptix, Altor BioScience, Merck, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Atreca, Heat Biologics, Leap Therapeutics, RSIP Vision, GlaxoSmithKline  Dr. Nathan Pennell:    Consulting or Advisory Role: AstraZeneca, Lilly, Cota Healthcare, Merck, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Genentech, Amgen, G1 Therapeutics, Pfizer, Boehringer Ingelheim, Viosera, Xencor, Mirati Therapeutics, Janssen Oncology, Sanofi/Regeneron   Research Funding (Inst): Genentech, AstraZeneca, Merck, Loxo, Altor BioScience, Spectrum Pharmaceuticals, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Jounce Therapeutics, Mirati Therapeutics, Heat Biologics, WindMIL, Sanofi

Drs. Vamsi Velcheti and Nathan Pennell discuss key lung cancer abstracts from the 2024 ASCO Annual Meeting, including data from LUMINOSITY and ADAURA, novel therapies in KRASG12C-mutant advanced NSCLC, and the need for effective adjuvant therapies for patients with rare mutations. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Hello, I am Dr. Vamsi Velcheti, your guest host for the ASCO Daily News Podcast today. I'm a professor of medicine and director of thoracic medical oncology at Perlmutter Cancer Center at NYU Langone Health. Today, I'm delighted to welcome Dr. Nathan Pennell, the co-director of the Cleveland Clinic Lung Cancer Program and vice chair of clinical research at the Taussig Cancer Center. Dr. Pennell is also the editor-in-chief of the ASCO Educational Book. Dr. Pennell is sharing his valuable insights today on key abstracts in lung cancer that will be presented at the 2024 ASCO Annual Meeting. You'll find our full disclosures in the transcript of the episode.  Nate, it's great to have you here on the podcast. Thank you for being here. Dr. Nathan Pennell: Thanks, Vamsi, for inviting me. I'm always excited for the ASCO Annual Meeting, and we have a tremendous amount of exciting lung cancer abstracts. I know we're not going to discuss all of them on this podcast, but even exciting Plenary presentations coming up.  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: So, one of the abstracts that caught my attention was Abstract 103, the LUMINOSITY trial, which will be presenting the primary analysis at the meeting. So, there's a lot of buzz and excitement around ADCs. Can you comment on this abstract, Nate, and what are your thoughts on key takeaways from this abstract?  Dr. Nathan Pennell: Absolutely, I agree. This is really an exciting new potential target for lung cancer. So historically, when we think about MET and lung cancer, we think about the MET exon 14 skipping mutations which are present in 3% or 4% of adenocarcinoma patients. And we have approved tyrosine kinase inhibitors, small molecule inhibitors that can be very effective for those. What we're talking about here is actually an antibody drug conjugate or ADC telisotuzumab vedotin, which is targeting the MET protein over expression in non-squamous EGFR wild type advanced non-small cell lung cancer. The LUMINOSITY was a single arm, phase 2 study of teliso, and first of all, I think we have to define the patient population. So, these were MET over expressing non-small cell lung cancer by immunohistochemical staining. So, it included both what they considered MET high expression and MET intermediate expression, both of which had to be 3+ IHC positive on 25% to 50% of cells in the intermediate and 50% or higher in the high expressing group. They were treated with the ADC and had pretty promising results, a response rate of 35% in the MET high group and 23% in the intermediate group. Duration of response at nine months and 7.2 months in those two groups, and the PFS was five and a half and six months. So I would say in a previously treated population, this was relatively promising and potentially defines a completely new and unique subgroup of biomarker defined patients. So, Vamsi, I'm curious, though, if this ends up moving forward to further development, what your thoughts are on adding yet another biomarker in non-small cell lung cancer? Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Yeah, I think it's certainly exciting. I think for this population, we really don't have a lot of options beyond the second line, and even in the second line, docetaxels are low bar. So,I think having more options for our patients is certainly outcome development. And I think MET IHC is relatively easy to deploy in a clinical setting. I think we already test for MET PD-L1 IHC routinely, and now recently, as you know, HER2 IHC given approval for ADCs, HER2 ADCs there in that space. So, I think from a technical standpoint, I don't see a big barrier in terms of adding an additional IHC marker. And usually, the IHC testing is pretty quick. And I think if you have a therapeutic approval based on IHC positivity, I think certainly from an operational standpoint, it shouldn't be a very complicated issue. Dr. Nathan Pennell: Yeah, I agree. This is cheap. It's something that can be done everywhere in the world. And as you said, in addition to diagnostic IHC, we're already looking at PD-L1, and probably moving towards doing that for HER2. This is really wonderful that we're moving into kind of the era of the ADCs, which is opening up a whole new therapeutic group of options for patients. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: So, the other abstract that caught my attention was like, the Abstract 8005. This is the molecular residual disease MRD analysis from the ADAURA trial. The ADAURA trial, as you all know, is the trial that led to the FDA approval of adjuvant use of osimertinib in patients with EGFR mutant stage 1B through 3A non-small cell lung cancer. And in this trial, osimertinib demonstrated significant improvements in DFS and OS. And in this particular study, Abstract 8005, the authors looked at the role of MRD in predicting DFS in the study. And after 682 patients who were randomized, 36% of the patients had samples to look at MRD post- surgery. And in the trial the MRD status predicted DFS or event free survival at 36 months with a hazard ratio of 0.23. And the MRD status had a median lead time of 4.7 months across both the arms, both osimertinib and the placebo arm. So, suggesting that MRD could potentially identify high risk subgroups of patients post-surgery to tailor personalized approaches potentially in this population. So, Nate, in your practice, of course, we don't have a clinically validated approach yet to kind of use MRD in this setting, but if we have an option to use an MRD based assay, do you think that would potentially be an opportunity to perhaps escalate or de-escalate adjuvant strategies with TKIs in the adjuvant setting? Do you see value in using MRI assays post- surgery? Dr. Nathan Pennell: Yeah, I think this is a really important study because this is such an important topic around adjuvant targeted treatment. So, of course, ADAURA really changed how we treated people with EGFR mutant lung cancer who underwent surgical resection, because we know that the three years of osimertinib significantly improved disease-free survival and overall survival. But there's still a lot of questions being asked about, is that affordable? Obviously, we're putting a lot of resources into three years of treatment, and not everyone necessarily needs it. There may well be people who are cured with surgery alone and adjuvant chemotherapy. And then what about duration? Is three years enough? Do we need even longer treatment, or do we need shorter treatment? And up to date, we haven't really been able to tell people at risk of recurrence other than the pure odds-based risk based on their stage.   And the assay that was used in the ADAURA study was a personalized tumor informed assay based on the resected tumor. It's unclear to me whether this was just a subgroup of people that had this done or whether they tried to do it in all 600 patients and only, it looks like they were successful in about 32% of people. Maybe about a third were able to successfully have a tumor informed assay. So, the first question is, “Can you use this to help guide who needs treatment or not?” And I think what they showed was only about 4% of people in osimertinib arm in 12% had MRD positive at baseline after surgery. So probably, upfront testing is not really going to be all that helpful at determining who's at high risk and needs to be treated.   Interestingly, of those who were positive, though, most of them, or 80% of them, did go MRD negative on osimertinib. And what I found really interesting is that of those who did have a recurrence, 65% of them did have the MRD test turn positive. And as you mentioned, that was about five months prior to being picked up radiographically, and so you can pick them up sooner. And it also looks like about two thirds of recurrences can be identified with the blood test. So that potentially could identify people who are recurring earlier that might be eligible for a more intensive treatment. The other thing that was really interesting is of those who recurred in the osimertinib arm, 68% of them happened after stopping the osimertinib, suggesting that for the majority of patients, even those not necessarily cured, they seem to have disease control while on the osimertinib, suggesting that maybe a longer duration of treatment for those patients could be helpful. The problem is it still isn't necessarily helpful at identifying who those people are who need the longer duration of treatment. So, definitely an important study. I think it could be useful in practice if this was available clinically, especially at monitoring those after completion of treatment. I think as the sensitivity of these MRD assays gets better, these will become more and more important. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: I think it's a little bit of a challenge in terms of standardizing these assays, and they're like multiple assays, which are currently commercially available. And I think the field is getting really complicated in terms of how you incorporate different assays and different therapeutics in the adjuvant space, especially if you're kind of looking at de-escalating immunotherapeutic strategies at the adjuvant setting, I think, makes it even more challenging. I think exciting times. We definitely need more thoughtful and better studies to really define the role of MRD in the adjuvant space. So, I guess more to come in this space. Dr. Nathan Pennell: Vamsi, I wanted to ask you about another really interesting Abstract 8011. This is a subgroup of the AEGEAN perioperative study for early-stage resected non-small cell lung cancer. This abstract is specifically looking at baseline N2 lymph node involvement in stage 2A-3B with N2 positive patients in an exploratory subgroup analysis. What are your key takeaways from the study?   Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: I felt this was a very interesting abstract for a couple of reasons. As you know, this is the AEGEAN trial, the phase 3 trial that was reported earlier last year. This is a perioperative study of durvalumab plus new adjuvant chemotherapy versus new adjuvant chemotherapy alone and adjuvant durvalumab plus placebo. The study obviously met its primary endpoint, as we all saw, like the event-free survival. And here in this abstract, the authors present an exploratory subgroup analysis of patients who had N2 lymph node involvement prior to study enrollment. So, in this study, they were focusing on perioperative outcomes. And one of the issues that has come up multiple times, as you know, in a lot of these preoperative studies, is the impact of neoadjuvant chemo immunotherapy on surgery or surgical outcomes. And consistently, across a lot of these trials, including the CheckMate 816, about 20% of patients don't end up making it to surgery. So in that light, I think this study and the findings are very interesting. In this study, they looked at patients who had N2 nodal involvement and of the patients with N2 nodal involvement, the surgical operability or the number of patients who completed surgery was similar in both the groups. So, there was no significant difference between patients who received durva versus chemotherapy and also among patients who had N2 subgroup who had surgery, similar proportions of durvalumab and placebo arms had open versus minimally invasive versus pneumonectomy. So durvalumab didn't have a negative impact on the type of surgery that the patients had at the time of surgery. So overall, the findings were consistent with other trials, perioperative trials that we have seen. So, the surgical outcomes were not negatively impacted by adding immunotherapy in the neoadjuvant perioperative space. So, this is consistent with other trials that we have seen. And also, the other issue, Nate, I'd like to get your opinion on is, across the board, in all the perioperative trials we have seen that about 20% of the patients actually don't end up making it a surgery. And of course, most of these perioperative trials, a lot of these patients are stage 3 patients. And my take on this was that there's probably a little bit of a patient selection issue. We generally tend to err on the side of operability when we have a stage 3 patient discussed in the tumor board, sometimes feel like the patient may downstage and could potentially go to surgery. But even in the real world, in stage 3 operable patients, what proportion of patients do you think don't end up going to surgery? Dr. Nathan Pennell: That is such an important question that I don't think we have the best answer to. You're right. All of these perioperative studies have a relatively high- sort of 20% to 30% of people who enroll on the studies don't necessarily go to surgery. And I don't think that they've done as great a job as they could in all of these trials describing exactly what happens to these patients. So in the real world, obviously not everyone would be fit enough to go to surgery or might progress in the time between when they were diagnosed and the time as planned for surgery. But probably more of them would go to surgery if they weren't getting neoadjuvant treatment, because that would be their initial treatment. The question is, of course, is that the right choice? If someone gets 12 weeks or nine weeks of neoadjuvant treatment and then a restaging scan shows that they've had progression with metastatic disease, are those really the people that would have been optimally treated with surgery upfront, or would they just have had recurrence on their first postoperative scan? So, it's really an important question to answer. I think the bigger one is, is the treatment preventing them through toxicity from going to treatment? And I think the studies have generally felt that few patients are missing out on the option of surgery because of toxicity being caused by the IO. And in the AEGEAN study, for example, in this subgroup, a slightly numerically higher percentage of patients in the durvalumab arm actually underwent surgery compared to those who got neoadjuvant chemo. So, it doesn't seem like we're necessarily harming people with the neoadjuvant treatment. But I know that this is a concern for patients and doctors who are undergoing this approach. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Definitely, I think having multiple data sets from perioperative trials, looking at the relative impact of IO on the safety and the nature of the surgery is going to be important, and this is a very important study for that reason. Dr. Nathan Pennell: Can I ask you another thing that I thought really interesting about this particular one is they looked at the difference between those with single station N2 and multi station N2. And I know this is one of those, should we be operating on people who have multi station N2 disease? And the AEGEAN study did include people who had multiple N2 stations where perhaps in the pre-IO era, these would have been treated with definitive chemoradiation and not surgery at all. But the disease-free survival hazard ratio was essentially the same for multi station N2 as it was in the overall population. So, has that changed the way we're approaching these patients in these multidisciplinary discussions? Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Absolutely, Nate. I think surgical operability is in the eye of the beholder. I think it depends on which surgeon sees the patient or how the discussion goes in the tumor boards, as you know. Certainly, I think with this optionality of having a chemo IO option and potential for downstaging, kind of pushes, at least in our practice, more of these patients who are multistation, who would have otherwise gone down the chemoradiation route are now actually going through neo adjuvant chemo IO and with the hope that they would make it to surgery. So, I think it's an interesting change in paradigm in managing our locally advanced patients. So, I think it's certainly interesting, but I guess to your point, there clearly are some patients who probably should just have chemoradiation upfront, and we may be kind of like delaying that definitive chemoradiation approach for at least a subset of patients. So, at the end of the day, I think it's a lot of clinical decision-making and I think there's going to be a little bit of art to managing these patients and it's going to be really hard to define that population for a clinical trial.  Dr. Nathan Pennell: Yeah, clearly, multidisciplinary discussion, still very important for earliest age non-small cell lung cancer patients. If we move back to metastatic lung cancer, let's talk about Abstract 8510 looking at one of our newer, exciting biomarkers, which are the KRASG12Cmutant non-small cell lung cancer. So this is a study of a second generation KRASG12Cinhibitor, olomorasib, which was combined with pembrolizumab, the anti PD-1 antibody, in patients with advanced KRASG12C mutant non-small cell lung cancer. This is something that has been tried before with first generation G12C inhibitors, with some concerns about how safe it was to do that. So, Vamsi, what did you learn from this abstract? Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Definitely, I think one of the concerns that we've had in other trials is like the cumulative toxicity of adding checkpoint inhibition to G12C inhibitors, especially the sotorasib CodeBreaK trial, where we see increased rates of grade 3, 4 transaminitis. So, it is encouraging to see that some of the newer agents have less of those issues when it comes to combining the checkpoint inhibition. So especially with KRASG12C, as you know, these are patients who are smokers, and often these are patients who have high PDL-1 could potentially also benefit from immunotherapy. In order for these KRASG12C inhibitors, in order to move these targeted therapy options for these patients to the front line, I do think we need to have substantial comfort in combining the checkpoint inhibitors, which is a standard treatment approach for patients in the frontline setting. I think this is exciting, and I think they're also like, as you know, there are other KRASG12C inhibitors also looking to combine with checkpoint inhibition in the frontline settings. So, we'll have to kind of wait and see how the other agents will perform in the setting. Dr. Nathan Pennell: Yeah, I completely agree. I think this is such an important area to explore specifically because unlike our other targeted oncogenes like EGFR and ALK, we have multiple options for these patients, both immunotherapy and targeted treatments. And if we could think about sequencing them or even combining them and if it could be done safely, I think that would be well worth investigating. There still was significant toxicity in this trial; 30% of people had diarrhea, even at the reduced dose, and there was transaminitis at sort of about 20% or so, although probably at a manageable level. But the response rate was really quite promising. And these are all previously IO and mostly G12C TKI pre-treated patients still had a response rate of 63%. And in those who were naive to IO and TKIs, it was 78% response rate. So, if it could be done safely, I think it's definitely worth pursuing this in further trials. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: And also, there's some data, preclinical data, like looking at G12C inhibition. And also we have known with MET inhibition for a long time that it could potentially augment immune responses and could be having some synergistic effect with IO. So, we'll have to wait and see, I think. But safety is really the top in mind when it comes to combining these agents with checkpoint inhibitors. So, it's really encouraging to see that some of the newer agents may be more combinable IO. Now moving on to the next abstract, and moving on to, again, the early-stage setting. So, Abstract 8052 from our colleagues in Princess Margaret reported outcomes in early-stage non- small cell lung cancer in patients with rare targetable mutation. This is actually becoming increasingly more relevant because we are seeing at least, like with the ALINA data, with the ALK and EGFR, now with ADAURA, we know that these patients don't benefit with adjuvant immunotherapy, especially some of these rare oncogene living mutations, other than like G12C. So I always struggle with this. When you have early-stage patients, with, let's say, a ROS or a RET, where we just don't have data, and we know that those are poor actors because biologically these are aggressive tumors. So, there's a really odd clinical question to ask in terms of, what is the role of adjuvant immunotherapy? Of course, this trial and this abstract are not really addressing that. But what is your take on this abstract? If you could just summarize the abstract for us. Dr. Nathan Pennell: Sure. Well, I think this is incredibly important, and this is an area near and dear to my own heart. And that is, of course, the whole landscape of how we manage early-stage patients has changed with both ADAURA, because we now have effective treatment in the adjuvant setting for EGFR mutant patients, and now more recently with the ALINA trial for adjuvant alectinib for ALK positive patients now being FDA-approved. So, what that means is we actually have to be testing people at diagnosis even before they would be getting adjuvant treatment, and potentially before even surgery to look for these targets. We need the PD-L1 status, we need EGFR and ALK. And if you're going to be looking at these biomarkers, I think there is a reasonable argument to be made that you should be doing broad testing for all of the targetable oncogenes in these patients. There are some studies suggesting that there's value to this and identifying them for treatment at the time of recurrence. But we also know that these patients are at high risk of recurrence and probably need to be investigated, at least in trials for the adjuvant setting. So, this particular study looked at 201 resected, mostly adenocarcinoma patients, and then they basically sequenced them for all of the targeted oncogenes. And they were quite common, perhaps even more common than you might expect in an advanced population. So, 43% of them had KRASG12C mutations, 13% had EGFR Exon 20 mutation, ERBB2 or HER2 mutations found in 11%, MET mutations in 10%, ALK in 7%, ROS1 in 6%, BRAF in 5%, and RET in 2%. So quite common to find these targetable oncogenes in this particular population, perhaps a somewhat biased population at Princess Margaret Hospital, but very common. And then they looked at the outcomes of these patients without targeted adjuvant treatment. And what they found was there was a very high rate of recurrence. So, relapse-free survival was pretty high in these patients across different stages, and generally their prognosis was worse than the more common KRASG12C patients. Most of these, in particular the HER2 mutant patients, seem to have a significantly worse relapse free survival. Interestingly enough, though, that did not carry over to overall survival. Overall survival was better in those who had targetable oncogenes. And my guess is that that probably had to do with the availability of targeted treatments at the time of recurrence that may have impacted overall survival. But I do think that this particularly highlights the need, the unmet need for effective adjuvant treatment in these patients. And most of them, with the exception of KRAS and perhaps BRAF, perhaps MET unlikely to benefit from adjuvant immunotherapy, as you mentioned. And so, I think we really need to be investing in trials of adjuvant targeted treatments in these populations.  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Yeah, this is an area that we really don't have a lot of data. But Nate, a question for you. So tomorrow you have a patient with RET fusion, stage 2, N1 disease. What would you do? Would you offer them an adjuvant RET inhibitor? Dr. Nathan Pennell: I think I would search really hard for a trial to give them access. But if you really want to know what I think, and I'm usually willing to tell people what I think, I think the proof of concept is there. I think we know that in the setting of highly effective and very tolerable adjuvant targeted treatment in the EGFR space with osimertinib, in the ALK space with alectinib, if anything, drugs like selpercatinib and pralsetinib in RET fusion positive lung cancer in the advanced setting are just as well tolerated and easily as effective and long lasting. And so, I think if you did a trial and they are doing trials looking at these drugs in the adjuvant space, almost certainly you're going to see the same really dramatic disease-free survival benefit from these treatments, which, at least in the EGFR space, seems to have translated into an improvement in overall survival. And so if I had a stage II or a resected stage 3, especially a RET fusion positive patient today, I would definitely talk to them about off-label use of a RET inhibitor if I could not find a trial. Now, I understand that there are going to be reimbursement issues and whatnot associated with that, but I think the extrapolation is worth discussing. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Yeah, I think it's really challenging because some of these fusions are so rare and it's hard to really do large adjuvant trials for some of these rarer subgroups. Nate, fascinating insights. Our listeners will find links to the abstracts we discussed today in the transcript of the episode. And Nate, I look forward to catching up with you at the Annual Meeting, and again after the meeting for our wrap up podcast to discuss the practice-changing lung cancer abstracts and highlights from the Plenary Session. Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your insights today. Dr. Nathan Pennell: Thanks for inviting me. Vamsi. I look forward to touching base after we get to see all the late-breaking abstracts. Like I said, this is, I think, a year for lung cancer with a lot of exciting data, and I know we'll have a lot to talk about. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti And thank you so much to all our listeners for your time. If you value the insights that you hear from the ASCO Daily News Podcast, please take a moment to rate and review and subscribe wherever you get your podcast.   Disclaimer: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.   Find out more about today's speakers: Dr. Vamsi Velcheti @VamsiVelcheti   Dr. Nathan Pennell @n8pennell   Follow ASCO on social media:   @ASCO on Twitter   ASCO on Facebook   ASCO on LinkedIn     Disclosures: Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Honoraria: ITeos Therapeutics Consulting or Advisory Role: Bristol-Myers Squibb, Merck, Foundation Medicine, AstraZeneca/MedImmune, Novartis, Lilly, EMD Serono, GSK, Amgen, Elevation Oncology, Taiho Oncology, Merus Research Funding (Inst.): Genentech, Trovagene, Eisai, OncoPlex Diagnostics, Alkermes, NantOmics, Genoptix, Altor BioScience, Merck, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Atreca, Heat Biologics, Leap Therapeutics, RSIP Vision, GlaxoSmithKline   Dr. Nathan Pennell:   Consulting or Advisory Role: AstraZeneca, Lilly, Cota Healthcare, Merck, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Genentech, Amgen, G1 Therapeutics, Pfizer, Boehringer Ingelheim, Viosera, Xencor, Mirati Therapeutics, Janssen Oncology, Sanofi/Regeneron  Research Funding (Inst): Genentech, AstraZeneca, Merck, Loxo, Altor BioScience, Spectrum Pharmaceuticals, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Jounce Therapeutics, Mirati Therapeutics, Heat Biologics, WindMIL, Sanofi 

Doctors Vamsi Velcheti, Sandip Patel, and Michael Zervos discuss recent updates on the management of early-stage non-small cell lung cancer (NSCLC), including the optimization of neoadjuvant and adjuvant treatment options for patients and the role of surgery in the era of targeted therapy and immuno-oncology in lung cancer. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Hello, I'm Dr. Vamsi Velcheti, your guest host for the ASCO Daily News Podcast today. I am a professor of medicine and director of thoracic medical oncology at the Perlmutter Cancer Center at NYU Langone Health. On today's episode, we'll be discussing recent updates on the management of early-stage non-small cell lung cancer (NSCLC), including the optimization of neoadjuvant and adjuvant treatment options for our patients, and the evolving role of surgery in the era of targeted therapy and immuno-oncology in lung cancer.  Today, I am delighted to be joined by two renowned experts in this space, Dr. Sandip Patel and Dr. Michael Zervos. Dr. Patel is a professor of medicine and a medical oncologist specializing in lung cancer at UCSD. Dr. Mike Zervos is the clinical chief of the Division of Robotic Thoracic Surgery and Director of General Thoracic Surgery at NYU Langone. Our full disclosures are available in the transcript of this episode, and disclosures relating to all episodes of the podcast are available at asco.org/DNpod. Dr. Patel and Dr. Zervos, it's a great honor to have you on the podcast today. Welcome aboard. Dr. Sandip Patel: Great to be joining you.  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti:  Let's get started with Dr. Patel. As you know, over the last decade we've had dramatic advances in systemic therapy options for patients with metastatic non-small cell lung cancer, in both the realms of targeted therapy and immunotherapy. These have significantly improved outcomes for our patients with metastatic lung cancer. What's exciting is that more recently, we've seen the incorporation of these agents, both targeted therapies and immunotherapies, in early-stage non-small cell lung cancer. Dr. Patel, can you tell our listeners about these exciting recent advances and why do you think it's so important to incorporate these personalized systemic therapy options for our early-stage patients? Dr. Sandip Patel: I think it's a great point and a great question. And so, I think one thing to understand is that non-small cell lung cancer is actually multiple diseases. We give it one name based on how it looks under the microscope, but the vast majority of our advances to improve outcomes for patients have come from our ability to understand specific subgroups.  Many of our therapies have had activity in the advanced setting. We have our patients with metastatic or more widespread disease, which naturally led to the thought that could we utilize these therapies in earlier stage disease and potentially increase the rate of cure for many of our patients, lung cancer being the most common cancer killer worldwide. And so to your point, trying to understand how to best treat a patient really involves personalized medicine, typically driven by understanding the genomic profile of their tumor and two of the genes that have graduated from being tested for in the metastatic setting and now in the localized setting are EGFR and ALK. And these in particular are mutations that confer sensitivity to small molecule inhibitors, EGFR with osimertinib, ALK in the localized setting with alectinib based on the data that we've seen.  And so, one of the areas that's been particularly exciting is our ability to maximize a patient's chance for durable remissions by integrating these therapies after surgery, after chemotherapy when appropriate, and continuing generally for a finite amount of time, two to three years depending on the agent in the study we're discussing for these patients. Additionally, immunotherapy, which has revolutionized our treatment of patients with metastatic disease, may be particularly well-suited for the localized setting of non-small cell lung cancer as well. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Excellent points, Sandip. You're absolutely right, in the metastatic setting, we've all come to accept molecular testing, sequencing, and biomarker profiling as a standard, but unfortunately, that hasn't quite yet percolated into the early-stage setting. Can you talk about some of the challenges that we face as we have these therapeutic options available now for more early-stage patients? Dr. Sandip Patel: So, I think there are 3 flavors of localized therapy in non-small cell lung cancer. One is the advanced, unresectable stage 3, for which the approach is often concurrent chemo-radiation followed by some form of consolidated therapy. We're about to hear the results of LAURA, which is the study looking at EGFR-mutated non-small cell lung cancer.  For other patients, historically, the treatment has been durvalumab, an anti-PD-L1 directed immunotherapy. The other two are operative treatment of localized cancer: adjuvant treatment after surgery, or neoadjuvant or perioperative, in which chemoimmunotherapy begins before surgery. And testing depends on the settings. For the stage 3 patient who's likely getting concurrent chemo-radiation, they may have a very small amount of tissue, and so often these are done by pulmonary EBUS biopsies and that's how we pathologically confirm that advanced stage 3B. There may not be a lot of tissue available for molecular testing. In fact, if you look at the PACIFIC analysis, just looking at PD-L1, which is just an IHC off a single slide, a third of patients weren't able to even get a PD-L1, let alone a genomic result. And so, I think that's one of the areas of LAURA that's going to be particularly interesting to see as we try to implement it into our practice after seeing the full data.  I think in the adjuvant setting, we're lucky because our surgeons, Dr. Mike Zervos here, will get us a large amount of tissue in the surgical resection specimen, so we tend to get enough tissue to do genomics while they're under chemotherapy, there tends to be time to wait for their genomic result. Where this really gets complicated is in the neoadjuvant or perioperative setting, where time is everything.  The most important thing we can do for a patient in the localized space is get them to the operating room, get them started on radiation, their curative local modality, and that's where we have a time pressure but also a sample pressure because that is a diagnostic biopsy. It's a very small piece of tissue. Initially, there are multiple stains that have to be done to identify this lung cancer as opposed to another tumor. And so that's an area that I think we're going to need additional approaches given that cell-free DNA tends to have lower yield in lower stage disease in giving us a result. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Great points, Sandip. How do you deal with this issue in San Diego? The challenge is now we have a lot of trials, we'll talk about those neoadjuvant immunotherapy trials, but we know that immunotherapy may not be as effective in all patients, especially those with EGFR or ALK or some of these non-smoker, oncogene-driven tumors. So, we don't want to be giving patients treatments that may not necessarily be effective in the neoadjuvant space, especially when there is a time crunch, and we want to get them to surgery and all the complications that come with giving them targeted therapy post-IO with potential risk for adverse events. Dr. Sandip Patel: Absolutely. It is a great point. And so, the multidisciplinary team approach is key, and having a close relationship with the interventional pulmonary oncs, interventional radiology surgery, and radiation oncology to ensure that we get the best treatment for our patients. With the molecularly guided therapies, they are currently more on the adjuvant setting in terms of actually treating. But as you mentioned, when we're making a decision around neoadjuvant or perioperative chemo IO, it's actually the absence of EGFR now that we're looking for because our intervention at the current time is to give chemoimmunotherapy. Going back to the future, we used to use single gene EGFR within 24 hours, which was insufficient for a metastatic panel, but it often required five slides of tissue input. ALK can be done by IHC, and so some of these ‘oldie but goodie' pathologic techniques, and that pathologists, if I haven't emphasized, understanding what we're trying to do at a different context is so key because they are the ones who really hold the result. In the neoadjuvant and perioperative setting, which many of us favor, especially for stage 3A and stage 2B disease, understanding how we can get that result so that we can get the patient to the operating room in an expeditious way is so important. There is a time pressure that we always had in the metastatic setting, but I think we feel much more acutely in the neoadjuvant and perioperative setting in my opinion. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Fascinating insights, Dr. Patel.  Turning to Dr. Zervos, from a surgical perspective, there has been an evolution in terms of minimally invasive techniques, robotic approaches, and enhanced recovery protocols, significantly improving outcomes in our patients post-surgery. How do you see the role of surgery evolving, especially with the increasing complexity and efficacy of these systemic therapies? How do you envision the role of surgery in managing these early-stage patients, and what are the key considerations for surgeons in this new era? Dr. Michael Zervos: Thanks, Vamsi. Thanks, Sandip. Thank you for having me on the podcast. Obviously, it's an honor to be a part of such a high-level discussion. I have to say, from a surgeon's perspective, we often listen to you guys talk and realize that there's been a lot of change in this landscape. And I think the thing that I've seen is that the paradigm here has also changed. If we were having this discussion 10 years ago, a lot of the patients that I am operating on now, I would not be operating on. It really has been amazing. And I think the thing that stands out to me the most is how all of this has changed with neoadjuvant chemotherapy checkpoint inhibition. I think, for us as surgeons, that's really been the key. Whether it's CheckMate 816 or whatever you're following, like PACIFIC, the data supports this. And I think what we're seeing is that we're able to do the surgery, we're able to do it safely, and I think that the resectability rates are definitely high up there in the 90% range. And what we're seeing is pretty significant pathologic responses, which I think is really amazing to me.  We're also seeing that this has now shifted over to the oligometastatic realm, and a lot of those patients are also being treated similarly and then getting surgery, which is something that we would not have even thought of ever. When you look at the trials, I think a lot of the surgery, up to this point, has been done more traditionally. There's a specific reason why that happens, specifically, more through thoracotomy, less with VATS, and less with robotic. Sandip, I think you guys have a pretty robust robotic program at UCSD, so I'm sure you're pretty used to seeing that.   As you guys have become so much more sophisticated with the treatments, we have also had to modify what we do operatively to be able to step up to the plate and accept that challenge. But what we are seeing is yes, these treatments work, but the surgeries are slightly more complicated. And when I say slightly, I'm minimizing that a little bit.  And what's complicated about it is that the treatment effect is that the chemo-immune check inhibition actually has a significant response to the tumor antigen, which is the tumor. So it's going to necrose it, it's going to fibrose it, and wherever there is a tumor, that response on the surgical baseline level is going to be significant. In other words, there are going to be lymph nodes that are stuck to the pulmonary artery, lymph nodes that are stuck to the airway, and we've had to modify our approaches to be able to address that.   Now, fortunately, we've been able to innovate and use the existing technology to our advantage. Personally, I think robotics is the way we have progressed with all this, and we are doing these surgeries robotically, mainly because I think it is allowing us, not only to visualize things better, but to have sort of a better understanding of what we're looking at. And for that matter, we are able to do a better lymph node dissection, which is usually the key with a lot of these more complicated surgeries, and then really venturing out into more complicated things, like controlling the pulmonary artery. How do we address all this without having significant complications or injuries during the surgery? Getting these patients through after they've successfully completed their neoadjuvant treatment, getting them to surgery, doing the surgery successfully, and hopefully, with minimal to no morbidity, because at the end, they may be going on to further adjuvant treatment. All of these things I think are super important. I think although it has changed the landscape of how we think of things, it has made it slightly more complicated, but we are up for the challenge. I am definitely excited about all of this. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: For some reason, like medical oncologists, we only get fixated on the drugs and how much better we're doing, but we don't really talk much about the advances in surgery and the advances in terms of outcomes, like post-op mortality has gone down significantly, especially in larger tertiary care centers. So, our way of thinking, traditionally, the whole intergroup trials, the whole paradigm of pneumonectomies being bad and bad outcomes overall, I think we can't judge and decide on current treatment standards based on surgical standards from decades ago. And I think that's really important to recognize.  Dr. Michael Zervos: All of this stuff has really changed over the past 10 years, and I think technology has helped us evolve over time. And as the science has evolved for you with the clinical trials, the technology has evolved for us to be able to compensate for that and to be able to deal with that. The data is real for this. Personally, what I'm seeing is that the data is better for this than it was for the old intergroup trials. We're able to do the surgery in a better, more efficient, and safer way. The majority of these surgeries for this are not going to be pneumonectomies, they are going to be mostly lobectomies. I think that makes sense. I think for the surgeons who might be listening, it doesn't really matter how you're actually doing these operations. I think if you don't have a very extensive minimally invasive or robotic experience, doing the surgery as open is fine, as long as you're doing the surgery safely and doing it to the standard that you might expect with complete lymph node clearance, mediastinal lymph node clearance, and intrapulmonary lymph node clearance. Really, I think that's where we have to sort of drive home the point, really less about the actual approach, even though our bias is to do it robotically because we feel it's less morbidity for the patient. The patients will recover faster from the treatment and then be able to go on to the next phase treatments. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: In some of the pre-operative trials, the neoadjuvant trials, there have been some concerns raised about 20% of patients not being able to make it to surgery after induction chemo immunotherapy. Can you comment on that, and why do you think that is the case, Sandip?  Dr. Sandip Patel: Well, I think there are multiple reasons. If you look, about half due to progression of disease, which they might not have been great operative candidates to begin with, because they would have early progression afterwards. And some small minority in a given study, maybe 1% to 2%, it's an immune-related adverse event that's severe. So, it's something that we definitely need to think about. The flip side of that coin, only about 2 in 3 patients get adjuvant therapy, whether it be chemotherapy, immunotherapy, or targeted therapy. And so, our goal is to deliver a full multimodal package, where, of course, the local therapy is hugely important, but also many of these other molecular or immunologically guided agents have a substantial impact.  And I do think the point around neoadjuvant and perioperative is well taken. I think this is a discussion we have to have with our patients. I think, in particular, when you look at higher stage disease, like stage 3A, for example, the risk-benefit calculus of giving therapy upfront given the really phenomenal outcomes we have seen, really frankly starting with the NADIM study, CheckMate816, now moving on into studies like KEYNOTE-671, AEGEAN, it really opens your eyes in stage 3. Now, for someone who's stage 1/1b, is this a patient who's eager to get a tumor out? Is there as much of an impact when we give neoadjuvant therapy, especially if they're not going to respond and may progress from stage 1 and beyond? I think that's a reasonable concern. How to handle stage II is very heterogeneous. I think two points that kind of happen as you give neoadjuvant therapy, especially chemo-IO that I think is worth for folks to understand and this goes to Mike's earlier point, that is this concept if they do get a scan during your neoadjuvant chemo immunotherapy, there is a chance of that nodal flare, where the lymph nodes actually look worse and look like their disease is progressing. Their primary tumor may be smaller or maybe the same. But when we actually go to the OR, those lymph nodes are chock-full of immune cells. There's actually no cancer in those lymph nodes. And so that's a bit of a red herring to watch out for.   And so, I think as we're learning together how to deliver these therapies, because the curative-intent modality is, in my opinion, a local modality. It's what Mike does in the OR, my colleagues here do in the OR. My goal is to maximize the chance of that or really maximize the long-term cure rates. And we know, even as long as the surgery can go, if only 2 or 3 patients are going to get adjuvant therapy then 1 in 10, of which half of those or 1 in 20, are not getting the surgery and that's, of course, a big problem. It's a concern. I think better selecting towards those patients and thinking about how to make these choices is going to be hugely important as we go over. Because in a clinical trial, it's a very selective population. A real-world use of these treatments is different. I think one cautionary tale is that we don't have an approval for the use of neoadjuvant or perioperative therapy for conversion therapy, meaning, someone who's “borderline resectable.” At the time at which you meet the patient, they will be resectable at that moment. That's where our best evidence is, at the current time, for neoadjuvant or perioperative approaches.  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti:   I think the other major issue is like the optimal sequencing of immune checkpoint here. Obviously, at this point, we have multiple different trial readouts, and there are some options that patients can have just neoadjuvant without any adjuvant. Still, we have to figure out how to de-escalate post-surgery immunotherapy interventions. And I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done, and you're certainly involved in some of those exciting clinical trials. What do you do right now in your current clinical practice when you have patients who have a complete pathologic response to neoadjuvant immunotherapy? What is the discussion you have with your patients at that point? Do they need more immunotherapy, or are you ready to de-escalate?  Dr. Sandip Patel: I think MRD-based technologies, cell-free DNA technologies will hopefully help us guide this. Right now, we are flying blind along two axes. One is we don't actually know the contribution of the post-operative component for patients who get preoperative chemo-IO. And so this is actually going to be an ongoing discussion. And for a patient with a pCR, we know the outcomes are really quite good based on CheckMate816, which is a pure neoadjuvant or front-end only approach. Where I actually struggle is where patients who maybe have 50% tumor killing. If a patient has only 10% tumor killing ... the analogy I think in clinic is a traffic light, so the green light if you got a pCR, a yellow light if you have that anywhere from 20%-70% residual viable tumor, and then anything greater than that, you didn't get that much with chemo-IO and you're wondering if getting more chemo-IO, what would that actually do? It's a bit of a red light. And I'm curious, we don't have any data, but my guess would be the benefit of the post-op IO is because patients are in that kind of yellow light zone. So maybe a couple more cycles, we'll get them an even more durable response. But I am curious if we're going to start relying more on MRD-based technologies to define treatment duration. But I think it's a very complicated problem. I think folks want to balance toxicity, both medical and financial, with delivering a curative-intent therapy. And I am curious if this maybe, as we're looking at some of the data, some of the reasons around preferring a perioperative approach where you scale it back, as opposed to a neoadjuvant-only approach where there's not a clean way to add on therapy, if you think that makes sense. But it's probably the most complicated discussions we have in clinic and the discussion around a non-pCR. And frankly, even the tumor board discussions around localized non-small cell lung cancer have gone very complex, for the benefit of our patients, though we just don't have clean data to say this is the right path.   Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: I think that the need for a really true multidisciplinary approach and discussing these patients in the tumor board has never been more significant. Large academic centers, we have the luxury of having all the expertise on hand. How do we scale this approach to the broader community is a big challenge, I think, especially in early-stage patients. Of course, not everyone can travel to Dr. Zervos or you for care at a large tertiary cancer centers. So, I think there needs to be a lot of effort in terms of trying to educate community surgeons, community oncologists on managing these patients. I think it's going to be a challenge. Dr. Michael Zervos: If I could just add one thing here, and I completely agree with everything that has been said. I think the challenge is knowing beforehand. Could you predict which patients are going to have a complete response? And for that matter, say, “Okay. Well, this one has a complete response. Do we necessarily need to operate on this patient?” And that's really the big question that I add. I personally have seen some complete response, but what I'm mostly seeing is major pathologic response, not necessarily CR, but we are seeing more and more CR, I do have to say. The question is how are you going to predict that? Is looking for minimal residual disease after treatment going to be the way to do that? If you guys could speak to that, I think that is just tremendously interesting.  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: I think as Sandip said, MRD is looking very promising, but I just want to caution that it's not ready for primetime clinical decision making yet. I am really excited about the MRD approach of selecting patients for de-escalation or escalation and surgery or no surgery. I think this is probably not quite there yet in terms of surgery or no surgery decision. Especially for patients who have early-stage cancer, we talk about curative-intent treatment here and surgery is a curative treatment, and not going to surgery is going to be a heavy lift. And I don't think we're anywhere close to that. Yet, I'm glad that we are having those discussions, but I think it may be too hard at this point based on the available technologies to kind of predict CR. We're not there.  Dr. Michael Zervos: Can I ask you guys what your thought process is for evaluating the patient? So, when you're actually thinking about, “Hey, this patient actually had a good response. I'm going to ask the surgeons to come and take a look at this.” What imaging studies are you actually using? Are you just using strictly CT or are you looking for the PET? Should we also be thinking about restaging a lot of these patients? Because obviously, one of the things that I hate as a surgeon is getting into the operating room only to find out that I have multiple nodal stations that are positive. Which really, in my opinion, that's sort of a red flag. And for me, if I have that, I'm thinking more along the lines of not completing that surgery because I'm concerned about not being able to provide an R0 resection or even having surgical staple lines within proximity of cancer, which is not going to be good. It's going to be fraught with complications.  So, a lot of the things that we as surgeons struggle with have to do with this. Personally, I like to evaluate the patients with an IV intravenous CT scan to get a better idea of the nodal involvement, proximity to major blood vessels, and potentially even a PET scan. And though I think in this day and age, a lot of the patients will get the PET beforehand, not necessarily get it approved afterwards. So that's a challenge. And then the one thing I do have to say that I definitely have found helpful is, if there's any question, doing the restaging or the re-EBUS at that point to be particularly helpful.  Dr. Sandip Patel: Yeah, I would concur that having that pathologic nodal assessment is probably one of the most important things we can do for our patients. For a patient with multinodal positive disease, the honest truth is that at our tumor board, that patient is probably going to get definitive chemoradiation followed by their immunotherapy, or potentially soon, if they have an EGFR mutation, osimertinib. For those patients who are clean in the mediastinum and then potentially have nodal flare, oftentimes what our surgeons will do as the first stage of the operation, they'll actually have the EBUS repeated during that same anesthesia session and then go straight into surgery. And so far the vast majority of those patients have proceeded to go to surgery because all we found are immune cells in those lymph nodes.  So, I think it's a great point that it's really the pathologic staging that's driving this and having a close relationship with our pathologists is key. But I think one point that I think we all could agree on is the way that we're going to find more of these patients to help and cure with these therapies is through improved utilization of low-dose CT screening in the appropriate population in primary care. And so, getting buy-in from our primary care doctors so that they can do the appropriate low-dose CT screening along with smoking cessation, and find these patients so that we can offer them these therapies, I think is something that we really, as a community, need to advocate on. Because a lot of what we do with next-generation therapies, at least on the medical oncology side, is kind of preaching to the choir. But getting the buy-in so we can find more of these cases at stage 1, 2 or 3, as opposed to stage 4, I think, is one of the ways we can really make a positive impact for patients. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: I just want to go back to Mike's point about the nodal, especially for those with nodal multistation disease. In my opinion, those anatomic unresectability is a moving target, especially with evolving, improving systemic therapy options. The utilization for chemo radiation has actually gone down. I think that's a different clinical subgroup that we need to kind of think differently in terms of how we do the next iteration or generation of clinical trials, are they really benefiting from chemo-IO induction? And maybe we can get a subset of those patients in surgery. I personally think surgery is probably a more optimal, higher yield to potentially cure these patients versus chemo radiation. But I think how we identify those patients is a big challenge. And maybe we should do a sequential approach induction chemo-IO with the intent to kind of restage them for surgery. And if they don't, they go to chemo consolidation radiation, I guess. So, I think we need to rethink our approach to those anatomically unresectable stage 3s. But I think it's fascinating that we're having these discussions. You know, we've come to accept chemo radiation as a gold standard, but now we're kind of challenging those assumptions, and I think that means we're really doing well in terms of systemic therapy options for our patients to drive increased cures for these patients. Dr. Michael Zervos: I think from my perspective as a surgeon, if I'm looking at a CT scan and trying to evaluate whether a patient is resectable or not, one of the things that I'm looking for is the extent of the tumor, proximity to mediastinal invasion, lymph nodes size. But if that particular patient is resectable upfront, then usually, that patient that receives induction chemo checkpoint inhibition is going to be resectable afterwards. The ones that are harder are the ones that are borderline resectable upfront or not resectable. And then you're trying to figure out on the back end whether you can actually do the surgery.  Fortunately, we're not really taking many patients to the operating room under those circumstances to find that they're not resectable. Having said that, I did have one of those cases recently where I got in there and there were multiple lymph node stations that were positive. And I have to say that the CT really underestimated the extent of disease that I saw in the operating room. So, there are some challenges surrounding all of these things. Dr. Sandip Patel: Absolutely. And I think for those patients, if upfront identification by EBUS showed multi nodal involvement, we've had excellent outcomes by working with radiation oncologists using modern radiotherapy techniques, with concurrent chemo radiation, followed by their immunotherapy, more targeted therapy, at least it looks like soon. I think finding the right path for the patient is so key, and I think getting that mediastinal pathologic assessment, as opposed to just guessing based on what the PET CT looks like, is so important. If you look at some of the series, 8% to 10% of patients will get a false-positive PET on their mediastinal lymph nodes due to coccidioidomycosis or sarcoidosis or various other things. And the flip side is there's a false-negative rate as well. I think Mike summarized that as well, so I think imaging is helpful, but for me, imaging is really just pointing the target at where we need to get pathologic sampling, most commonly by EBUS. And getting our interventional pulmonary colleagues to help us do that, I think is so important because we have really nice therapeutic options, whether it's curative-intent surgery, curative-intent chemo radiation, where we as medical oncologists can really contribute to that curative-intent local therapy, in my opinion.  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Thank you so much Sandip and Mike, it's been an amazing and insightful discussion, with a really dynamic interplay between systemic therapy and surgical innovations. These are really exciting times for our patients and for us. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise and insights with us today on the ASCO Daily News Podcast.   I want to also thank our listeners today for your time. If you value the insights that you hear today, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you so much. [FH1]   Dr. Sandip Patel: Thank you. Dr. Michael Zervos: Thank you.   Disclaimer: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.   Follow today's speakers: Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti @VamsiVelcheti Dr. Sandip Patel @PatelOncology Dr. Michael Zervos   Follow ASCO on social media: @ASCO on X (formerly Twitter) ASCO on Facebook ASCO on LinkedIn   Disclosures:  Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Honoraria: ITeos Therapeutics Consulting or Advisory Role: Bristol-Myers Squibb, Merck, Foundation Medicine, AstraZeneca/MedImmune, Novartis, Lilly, EMD Serono, GSK, Amgen, Elevation Oncology, Taiho Oncology, Merus Research Funding (Inst.): Genentech, Trovagene, Eisai, OncoPlex Diagnostics, Alkermes, NantOmics, Genoptix, Altor BioScience, Merck, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Atreca, Heat Biologics, Leap Therapeutics, RSIP Vision, GlaxoSmithKline   Dr. Sandip Patel: Consulting or Advisory Role: Lilly, Novartis, Bristol-Myers Squibb, AstraZeneca/MedImmune, Nektar, Compugen, Illumina, Amgen, Certis, Eli Lilly, Roche/Genentech, Merck, Pfizer, Tempus, Iovance Biotherapeutics. Speakers' Bureau: Merck, Boehringer Ingelheim Research Funding (Inst.):Rubius, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Pfizer, Roche/Genentech, Amgen AstraZenece/MedImmune, Fate, Merck, Iovance, Takeda   Dr. Michael Zervos: No relationships to disclose

Drs. Vamsi Velcheti, Taofeek Owonikoko, and Janakiraman Subramanian discuss their experiences navigating the cancer drug shortage in the United States, the impact on patients and clinical trial enrollment, lessons learned, and proactive strategies to mitigate future crises. TRANSCRIPT  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Hello, I'm Dr. Vamsi Velcheti, your guest host for the ASCO Daily News Podcast today. I'm a professor of medicine and director of thoracic oncology at the Perlmutter Cancer Center at NYU Langone. On today's episode, we'll be discussing the impact of the shortage of cancer chemotherapy drugs across the United States. This has been affecting several thousands of patients with adult and pediatric cancers and hampering enrollment in clinical trials. Among the shortages are very commonly used drugs like cisplatin, carboplatin, methotrexate, and fludarabine. Some of these shortages have persisted since the time of the pandemic in 2020.   So today, to discuss this really troubling scenario, I have two outstanding colleagues, Dr. Janakiraman Subramanian, the director of thoracic oncology at Inova Schar Cancer Institute in Virginia, and Dr. Taofeek Owonikoko, a professor of medicine and the chief of the Division of Hematology and Oncology at the University of Pittsburgh Hillman Cancer Center in Pittsburgh.   Our full disclosures are available in the transcript of this episode, and disclosures relating to all episodes of the podcast are available at asco.org/DNpod.  So, a recent survey by the NCCN found that 90% of the nation's largest cancer centers have experienced a shortage in carboplatin, and 70% of the centers have reported a shortage in cisplatin. These are platinum-based chemotherapies we use frequently in patients with cancer, and these are often curative intent treatments for several cancers, and these are used in several tumor types, both solid tumors and hematologic malignancies. So, the scale of the problem is immense.   Dr. Owonikoko, I'd like to hear your take on this situation and how are you dealing with this at the UPMC Cancer Center.  Dr. Taofeek Owonikoko: Yeah, thank you, Dr. Velcheti, and happy to be part of this panel. As you rightly surmised, the chemotherapy drug shortage is what we've all experienced across the length and breadth of the United States. Our cancer center here in Pittsburgh is not an exception. We've had to be proactive as well as think outside the box to be able to manage the challenge. Just like every other cancer center across the country, maybe to varying degrees, we've had to look at patients in need of chemotherapy with these standard-of-care agents such as cisplatin or carboplatin, and to some degree docetaxel, during this past episode of drug shortage that we all went through. And while we did not have to, fortunately, cancel any patient treatment, we all went through it with bated breath; not sure of where the next batch of chemotherapy drugs will come through, but I would say in the past couple of weeks, we've actually seen some improvement in drug availability.   But before then, we've had to have contingency plans where, on a weekly basis, we review our patient list and the drug regimens that they're going to need, and must make sure that we have enough drug on hand for those patients. And in situations where we thought we might not have enough drug; we also had a plan to use alternative regimens. We were proactive in having guiding principles that are consistent with ASCO's recommendations in terms of quality care delivery for cancer patients. So, I'm sure that this is more or less the same approach adopted by other leading cancer centers across the country.   Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Thank you, Dr. Owonikoko. And Dr. Subramanian, you're in a community setting, a large cancer center that serves a lot of patients in the state of Virginia. So, what is the scale of the problem at your institution and how are you handling it?   Dr. Janakiraman Subramanian: First of all, Dr. Velcheti, thanks for having me here on this panel. And as you rightly said, this is a significant problem, and it is across the country like Dr. Owonikoko said. And as medical oncologists, we are not always thinking of drug shortages. Our focus is on taking care of our patients. So, this is one more issue that we need to keep in mind now as we manage our patients with cancer. When this shortage started, the biggest problem, as you know, was when we became aware of this was primarily in cisplatin and we had some of our patients who were getting curative treatment and we had to make a decision - can they get cisplatin or can they get carboplatin. And one of the things we did was to have an ethics committee that will review each patient that is being planned to receive cisplatin-based chemotherapy and come to a decision on how best we can support them.   The template for some of this was based upon some of the triage mechanisms we used during COVID, as well as the ASCO guideline document for managing this chemotherapy shortage, which was one of the blueprints we used. And they have reviewed all cases, all patients that are being planned for cisplatin or carboplatin for that matter, and we come to a decision based on that. And we also have another committee that constantly monitors drug availability on a weekly basis and tries to forecast where the next problem would be as we take care of our patients.   And particularly as a lung cancer doctor, we've had situations where we had to use carboplatin instead of cisplatin and even we also have carboplatin shortage. And so, the committee usually approves two cycles at a time, but thankfully so far we have not had a situation where we could not offer our patients the chemotherapy treatment. But we are very carefully monitoring the situation, hoping that this will improve.   The other aspect of the shortage has been in 5FU. A lot of our GI colleagues; I treat esophageal cancer patients as well, where we've had to forego the bolus 5FU and have a 10% reduction on all 5FU infusions. And we've been using some of that dose reduction to ensure that we can have 5FU available for all our patients. And that's how we've been trying to manage this shortage situation here at Inova Schar.   Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Dr. Subramanian and Dr. Owonikoko, we are oncologists, we are treating patients, and the toughest part really is telling a patient that we don't have access to certain drugs and we have to switch treatments to perhaps another treatment regimen that may be suboptimal. And it's always a very anxiety-provoking discussion, and especially for patients with metastatic cancer, they're already under a lot of stress and it's a really difficult conversation. How do you handle that, Dr. Owonikoko?  Dr. Taofeek Owonikoko: That's a conversation we all hope we don't have to have. And fortunately, with this current crisis, I've actually not had such misfortune of having to inform a patient that we don't have drugs to treat them or that we have to switch to something inferior. But conceptually, it's possible that could have happened and that would have been very difficult. But the one thing that we did, though, as part of our mitigation strategy was actually to inform the patient ahead of time because the way we handled this was to look at our inventory on a week-by-week basis. And if there are patients where we felt maybe they will be coming in towards the end of the week and we may not have enough drugs for them, to let them know the possibility exists that we might have to switch them to something different. While we did not have to do that for any patient, yes, there are patients that we had to give that heads up to, to say, “We're having this shortage. We're doing everything we can to make sure it's available. But just in case it's not available…” I think what is most important for most patients is to be aware of that decision ahead of time, to be able to process it, and to be transparent.   The other challenge that we face was, if you have to choose between patients, what should be your guiding principles as to who gets the drug and who doesn't get it? I think it's very easy for all of us to say, “Oh, if it's curative intent, we do it. If it's not curative intent, we don't do it.” It's a little more complicated than that because if we put the equity hat on, curative intent doesn't actually mean that that life is more valuable than somebody who cannot be cured. And this is where really, I think having people with expertise in ethics of care delivery and disaster management will be very important for us to proactively anticipate that, should this become a recurrent problem in the future that we actually have a well-vetted approach, just like we did during COVID where you have to ration resources that we have those people with expertise to help us as oncologists because not all of us, at least personally I can speak for myself, that is not my area of expertise and comfort.  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Excellent points. Dr. Subramanian, anything to add?  Dr. Janakiraman Subramanian: Oh, absolutely. I echo what Dr. Owonikoko said. These are conversations that we would like to hopefully never have with our patients. But this is a crisis that we are facing now. And personally, I can tell you two situations where we ran into this problem. But overall, though, we never had to stop a treatment or cancel a treatment for our patient. In the first situation, we had a young man with a rare germ cell tumor in the hospital for whom cisplatin was key. He was already in the ICU and sometimes the treatment start dates are not perfect, unlike what we do in the outpatient setting, depending on how well he's doing or the treatment start dates might move by a day or so. So we basically had to hold a certain dose of cisplatin for him.   This brings the next question, which is how do we decide who gets cisplatin versus who can go for an alternative option? And I think Dr. Owonikoko made a great point where, just because it is a curative disease does not mean their life is more valuable. This is where I think trying to make that decision at an individual level, as an individual treating physician can be extremely hard. And that's why at our institution we have this ethics committee where we have oncologists, pharmacists, and ethicists that review these chemotherapy orders, particularly for cisplatin, and try to use some guiding principles that we learned from COVID as well as ASCO's guidance to decide how we assign our resources. That's one option, one way we have done it.    And then in another situation that was faced by one of my GI oncology colleagues was a patient that was originally planned to go on a clinical trial where the chemotherapy backbone was FOLFOX and because we had the 5FU shortage, we could not offer that patient clinical trial enrollment. And that was a tough conversation where they had to tell them that they could not go on a clinical trial that they were looking forward to. And this then brings the next question, which is by foregoing the bolus 5FU and by the 10% reduction in the infusional 5FU, are we providing them inferior treatment? And it's a conversation that's had at a very individual level. I don't envy my colleague who had to have that conversation. It's a challenge and we try to do our best to communicate to our patients that we are trying to provide care without trying to compromise the effectiveness of treatment for them.  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Thank you so much both of you. And we had the same issues here at NYU in New York City as well. It appears, you know, the degree of shortage and the drugs that are in shortage has been somewhat different at different locations across the United States. But the theme has been that we are having to ration treatments for our patients. And of course, there are some tumor types where there's really no adequate substitution, for example, GU cancers. I mean, you can't really not give them cisplatin. A lot of these are situations which have curative intent and young patients. So, it's really troubling.   And I think one of the things that really came out of this is there's been a lot of push from professional societies that actually ASCO has been spearheading and some intense discussions with CMS and legislators to kind of provide more long-term fix for these things. And I think all of us have to be more engaged in those discussions with our professional societies like ASCO to kind of help promote awareness. So if you kind of think about it, these drugs are not that expensive. These are generic drugs that we've all been using for such a long time. And the fact that we can't provide these drugs for various reasons is kind of really concerning. We spend so much money on research and more expensive drugs and not being able to manufacture these drugs within the country and kind of having to rely on complex supply chains is troubling, and I hope the situation improves very soon.    So, I know both of you are at large cancer centers that enroll patients on clinical trials. Of course, these drugs, especially carboplatin, for lung cancer, especially, are like core treatments that are used in managing cancer patients with lung cancer. So how is this affecting your clinical trial accrual? Are you prioritizing patients on clinical trials for these drugs? Have you had to make any decisions to hold clinical trial accrual for certain trials? Kind of curious to hear.  Dr. Taofeek Owonikoko: Yeah, so I can maybe weigh in a little bit on that in terms of what we've had to do for patients receiving treatment as standard of care versus those going on clinical trials. As we all recognize that when a patient goes on a clinical trial, even if they are going to receive a standard-of-care regimen as part of that trial, it still has to be administered in line with the protocol. So, during the extreme period of shortage anxiety, we actually had consideration for perhaps not putting patients on trial if we're not sure that they will be able to continue to receive the protocol-mandated treatment, whether it's a control intervention or the experimental intervention.   The good thing to come out of this is at least here at UPMC, we actually did not have any instance where we had to deny a patient clinical trial participation. But there were anxious periods when we already had patients enrolled and they were scheduled to receive a platinum-containing regimen and we were not sure whether or not we were going to have adequate supply of the drug for them while on trial. I think this really raises an important consideration going forward as we come out of this current shortage. I don't by any stretch of the imagination assume that this is going to be the last one we experience, but I think the lessons learned here, we have to also carry that forward both in the design of the trial as well as in the regulatory environment surrounding clinical trial conduct, to say, should another incidence of drug shortage are to happen, how do we actually operationalize that with respect to patients on trial, whether starting or already on trial?   I think it's much more challenging when the patient is already on the trial, they've already started. It's less challenging if you just have to make a decision about somebody starting newly on the trial. But equally important is that by not allowing new patients to go on trial is denying something that potentially could be of benefit to them, albeit it is still a trial, it's not an established treatment option yet.  Dr. Janakiraman Subramanian : I completely agree with Dr. Owonikoko. Those were very key points and issues that we face as well. In terms of my patients with lung cancer, we haven't had a problem in getting them on clinical trials. Even though we have had carboplatin shortage patients who are already on treatment, they were able to get the carboplatin. For new patients, we were still able to provide them carboplatin as well. The biggest problem for clinical trials has been primarily with my GI colleagues who have to use 5FU. And there, as I said before, we are unable to give bolus 5FU and there is a 10% reduction of the infusional 5FU. So, we can't have any of these patients go on clinical trials.    And as a result, anything that has to do with 5FU has come to a screeching halt in terms of clinical trials for our patients. And I think I echo the point of Dr. Owonikoko that by no means this is the last drug shortage we're going to be dealing with and we are here today discussing this, also because this shortage has not ended. It's been ongoing. It's one of the longest drug shortages in my memory as a medical oncologist, and that's concerning. We still see that there is some improvement, but we haven't gotten past it yet.     And therefore, as we develop clinical trials and we need to have methods to address drug shortages and how we manage patient enrollment as well as how do we manage existing patients who are already on a clinical trial and, if possible, what might be their options in that situation. We may not have all the answers, but it is definitely an issue that we need to think about in the future as we develop and implement newer clinical trials for our patients.  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: I completely agree and great points, both of you. And we've had the same issues with clinical trials at NYU Langone as well due to the shortage. It's been a challenge, and I think this is a problem that's so complex because of supply chain issues and the way the drugs are priced and incentives for manufacturing these drugs in the United States are not lucrative enough to actually onshore a lot of the production of these drugs.   I think at the end of the day, I think we have to come up with some creative, innovative, reimbursement structures for these generic chemotherapy drugs. I think this would require a very complex economic solution that perhaps ASCO and other organizations should kind of really foster an environment of innovation to kind of help facilitate onshoring some of the manufacturing of these key drugs within the United States. I think ASCO is already trying to do that, trying to collaborate with all the stakeholders to kind of address this problem is very critical, and I think all of us have to be engaged in some of the advocacy efforts that are ongoing to kind of address these drug shortages. And this is not a short-term problem.  So, Dr. Owonikoko and Dr. Subramanian, any final thoughts before we wrap up the podcast today?  Dr. Janakiraman Subramanian: So, Vamsi, you mentioned the whole complex supply chain and the fact that we rely primarily on overseas manufacturers to get these drugs that are off-patent but still a key backbone of our cancer treatment. I think those are all key issues that policymakers and leaders in the field have to keep in mind. As an institution at Inova, one of the key mechanisms that have helped us to sort of stay ahead of the shortage was to have this inventory management team that monitors the inventory out there. And in fact, the inventory management team does have access to what the inventory is in some of their main suppliers in terms of the drugs. And they also have an idea of how many patients are going through treatment, what is the weekly usage of a specific drug like carboplatin. And they try to forecast what is coming down the road and try to prepare for it.   And as we try to look for solutions, maybe a forecasting mechanism in a larger scale like either spearheaded by ASCO or by policymakers level that can, for the overall country, try to see where some of the inventory is for some of these critical drugs and try to prepare for it ahead of time, rather than wait till we hit the shortage and then try to find alternative suppliers to get the drug, which obviously doesn't happen quick enough. It takes months or even longer to catch up and get the inventory back to the level where we can comfortably take care of our patients.  I think that is something we should be advocating for that as well as the professional societies should take a handle on that and see if they can support something like that as well as letting the institutions know ahead of time what's coming might be very helpful.  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Yeah, very good point, Janakiraman, and I think that's a key takeaway here. I think we have to learn from other industries and try to– I mean this is not unique to healthcare by any means. I mean these chronic shortages due to supply chain issues, inventory management, there might be some learnings from other industries here that we probably should also focus on inventory management and improve supply chain logistics.   Dr. Owonikoko, any closing thoughts?   Dr. Taofeek Owonikoko: Yeah, I agree as well with all the points made by Dr. Subramanian and yourself. This is a chronic problem that requires a long-term strategy. I think it's both an economic problem as well as a regulatory problem. As we all know, part of the reason why we went through this current crisis is the regulatory decision by the FDA regarding safety of one of the manufacturers. So being proactive in terms of how these audits are conducted and giving people lead time I think will help avoid similar situations in the future.    It's an economic problem. There's a reason why a lot of the big pharma companies are not producing these drugs. And if the cost of production is such that the amount of money you get paid is enough to cover your price, I think there is an economic issue there to be addressed. That is unfortunately not within the scope of what any one of us can do individually, but as advocates in terms of the structure of incentivizing new drug versus old drug, some of these newer drugs are quite expensive, but oftentimes they are used along with standard drugs that are not as expensive. So, where do we strike that balance where we do not stifle innovation but at the same time, we don't create a perverse incentive system where everybody just wants to come up with the newest, most expensive drug and nobody is interested in really producing the backbone chemotherapy and other agents that will make those new drugs work well.   So, I think we have to pay attention. We have to advocate for our patients through our different institutions and organizations, and I hope that society as a whole that we've learned a lot of lessons from this crisis and that will help us craft some long-term strategies.   Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Thank you both Dr. Owonikoko and Dr. Subramanian for your time today to speak with me and our listeners and for sharing your insights with us on the ASCO Daily News podcast.   Dr. Taofeek Owonikoko: Thank you.   Dr. Janakiraman Subramanian: Thank you.  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: And thank you to our listeners for your time today. If you value the insights that you hear on ASCO Daily News Podcast, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Thank you so much.  Disclaimer: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.  ASCO Resources Related to Drug Shortages are available here.     Follow today's speakers:    Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti    @VamsiVelcheti    Dr. Janakiraman Subramanian  @RamSubraMD  Dr. Taofeek Owonikoko  @teekayowo    Follow ASCO on social media:     @ASCO on X (formerly Twitter)    ASCO on Facebook    ASCO on LinkedIn      Disclosures:     Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti:     Honoraria: ITeos Therapeutics    Consulting or Advisory Role: Bristol-Myers Squibb, Merck, Foundation Medicine, AstraZeneca/MedImmune, Novartis, Lilly, EMD Serono, GSK, Amgen, Elevation Oncology, Taiho Oncology, Merus    Research Funding (Inst.): Genentech, Trovagene, Eisai, OncoPlex Diagnostics, Alkermes, NantOmics, Genoptix, Altor BioScience, Merck, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Atreca, Heat Biologics, Leap Therapeutics, RSIP Vision, GlaxoSmithKline      Dr. Janakiraman Subramanian:  Consulting or Advisory Role: AstraZeneca, Boehringer Ingelheim, Pfizer, Novartis, Daichi, G1 Therapeutics, Jazz Pharmaceuticals, Janssen Oncology, Lilly, Blueprint Medicines, Axcess, BeiGene, Cardinal Health, Takeda, OncoCyte  Speakers' Bureau: AstraZeneca, Boehringer Ingelheim, G1 Therapeutics, Jazz Pharmaceuticals, Janssen Oncology  Research Funding (Inst.): G1 Therapeutics, Tesaro/GSK, Novartis, Genentech, Novocure, Merck   Dr. Taofeek Owonikoko:  Stocks and Other Ownership Interests: Cambium Oncology, GenCart, Coherus Biosciences  Consulting or Advisory Role: Novartis, Celgene, Abbvie, Eisai, GI Therapeutics, Takeda, Bristol-Myers Squibb, MedImmune, BerGenBio, Lilly, Amgen, AstraZeneca, PharmaMar, Boehringer Ingelheim, EMD Serono, Xcovery, Bayer, Merck, Jazz Pharmaceuticals, Zentalis, Wells Fargo, Ipsen, Roche/Genentech, Janssen, Exelixis, BeiGene, Triptych Health Partners, Daichi, Coherus Biosciences  Speakers Bureau: Abbvie  Research Funding (Inst.): Novartis, Astellas Pharma, Bayer, Regeneron, AstraZenece/MedImmune, Abbvie, G1Therapeutics, Bristol-Myers Squibb, United Therapeutics, Amgen, Loxo/Lilly, Fujifilm, Pfizer, Aeglea Biotherapeutics, Incyte, Merck, Oncorus, Ispen, GlaxoSmithKline, Calithera Biosciences, Eisai, WindMIL, Turning Point Therapeutics, Roche/Genentech, Mersana, Meryx, Boehringer Ingelheim  Patents, Royalties, Other Intellectual Property (Inst.):   Overcoming Acquired Resistance to Chemotherapy Treatments Through Suppression of STAT3  Selective Chemotherapy Treatments and Diagnostic Methods Related Thereto  DR4 Modulation and Its Implications in EGFR-Target Cancer Therapy Ref: 18089 PROV (CSP) United States Patent Application No. 62/670,210 June 26, 2018 (Co-Inventor)  Soluble FAS ligand as a biomarker of recurrence in thyroid cancer; provisional patent 61/727,519 (Inventor)  Other Relationship: Roche/Genentech, EMD Serono, Novartis  Uncompensated Relationships: Reflexion Medical           

Drs. Vamsi Velcheti and Jack West discuss ADAURA, KEYNOTE-671, and KEYNOTE-789 trials in NSCLC and the first pivotal study of sunvozertinib for the treatment of NSCLC with EGFR exon 20 insertion mutations. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Hello, I'm Dr. Vamsi Velcheti, your guest host for the ASCO Daily News Podcast. I'm a professor of medicine and director of thoracic medical oncology at the Perlmutter Cancer Center at NYU Langone Health. My guest today is Dr. Jack West, a thoracic oncologist and associate professor in medical oncology at City of Hope Comprehensive Cancer Center. Today, we'll be discussing practice-changing studies and other key advances in lung cancer that were featured at the 2023 ASCO Annual Meeting.   Our full disclosures are available in the transcript of this episode and disclosures of all guests on the ASCO Daily News podcast are available at asco.org/DNpod.   Jack, there was a lot of exciting new data that emerged from the ASCO Annual Meeting, and it's great to have you back on our podcast today to talk about all the key updates in lung cancer.   Dr. Jack West: Absolutely. Thanks so much. It's always a high-energy meeting, and there was a lot to talk about in the lung cancer sessions this year for sure.  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Let's begin with LBA3, the ADAURA trial. This was presented in the Plenary Session at ASCO; we've heard previously the DFS updates from previous meetings, and overall survival updates were presented at the ASCO 2023 Annual Meeting. So, Jack, what was the highlight of the presentation for you? And could you put things in context for us? We have known about the DFS data for a while now. What gets you so excited about this study?  Dr. Jack West: Well, we've actually been focused on this trial for literally 3 years, since Dr. Herbst presented it at another Plenary presentation back in the ASCO Meeting in 2020 when we saw tremendous differences in the DFS data. Again, this was a trial of patients with resected stage 1b to 3a EGFR mutation-positive non-small cell lung cancer. Nearly 700 patients were randomized to after-surgery, and for many, but not all, patients undergoing chemotherapy, it wasn't mandated. But after that, they were randomized to get adjuvant, placebo, or osimertinib for up to 3 years. And we saw huge differences in the disease-free survival from the first presentation, with a hazard ratio in the range of 0.2.   We have notably seen significant improvements in disease-free survival before with other EGFR TKIs for this population after surgery, but nothing in this range. And it's also notable that in the various other trials of other EGFR inhibitors in the postoperative setting, we've seen a DFS benefit, but that didn't translate to an improvement in overall survival. So, seeing a press release that this was associated with a significant and, in fact, highly significant by report, improvement in overall survival, as well as DFS, was really notable.   What's also, I think, particularly important as a focus of this is that in the later presentations of this work, with longer follow-up last year, we saw that the DFS curves showed a drop in the DFS starting after these patients had completed 3 years of treatment. So, really suggesting that at least some, if not many or most of these patients who had been on adjuvant osimertinib were subject to a higher risk of relapse once they completed that. So, again, making the endpoint of overall survival particularly important. It's always been to me the endpoint we should care about most in a curative setting. Although the DFS was the primary endpoint of the study and it was powered and built around specifically focusing on the DFS difference, so overall survival was reassuring, I think, when we actually saw it, but not what the trial was centered around.    And what we saw was a very dramatic improvement in overall survival with a hazard ratio of 0.49. That was essentially the same for the patients with stage 2 to 3a disease, as well as the broader population with stage 1b to 3a disease. When we look at the absolute numbers for overall survival at 5 years, there was an improvement from 73% to 85% with osimertinib, and in the population from 1b to 3a, an improvement from 78% to 88%. So, many things to comment on here. Really remarkable to see an 88% 5-year survival in the osimertinib arm that includes patients with stage 3a disease.    I would say that there's still some controversy, some questions about this, and it really centers around a few things. One is, like many global trials, this one enrolled patients from many places that did not have the same standard of care staging that we follow in the U.S. There wasn't any specification or mandate for PET scans, which would be very routine in the U.S. And brain MRIs were not mandated either. And so there were almost certainly some patients with more advanced disease that was not detected that would be a big advantage for the osimertinib arm, but really not characterized. And also, the crossover was made possible to osimertinib starting in April of 2020, but only 38.5% of the patients on the control arm actually received osimertinib at the time of relapse. And even though many of the other patients who had a relapse did get another EGFR inhibitor, I don't think there's much question that osimertinib is the preferred and optimal EGFR TKI.   And so there were a couple of important factors kind of going for this trial. One is the long, long, long duration of treatment at 3 years, though with a drop-off, I think some questions about whether even that is enough, and we might be tempted to treat beyond 3 years. And then how much did the inability of most of the patients on the control arm to get osimertinib later contribute? My personal view is that it is a troubling aspect of this trial. But also so many other trials that they're run globally in places where we arguably perpetuate these disparities by running these trials that, in part, magnify the differences between the two arms because some patients just will not have access to what is our best standard of care in the U.S., or many other parts of the world, but weren't necessarily available to many of the patients on the control arm where it was conducted. So, I think that's always a concern. It's definitely an issue of this trial, but I would not say it's unique to this one.  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Very good points, Jack, and I completely agree with you. I think those certainly are concerns. But on the other hand, this is a pragmatic trial and that's the real-world scenario in terms of access issues, in terms of osimertinib globally, correct, in the stage 4 setting, even though we all agree that osimertinib is the best option for patients with metastatic EGFR-mutated lung cancer, I think that's obviously a reflection of global access issues and global disparities and changes in standard of care in terms of workup as well. So, it's somewhat of a pragmatic trial in some ways and I completely agree with you, I think that may have potentially had some impact on the overall survival.  Dr. Jack West: Well, I would clarify that I don't think that this really highly significant difference in overall survival is undermined completely by this. There's no question in my mind that with the huge difference in disease-free survival that we'd already seen for 3 years, it has become our standard of care really for this population at least to offer it, if not to strongly recommend it. But I would say that most of us have been quite inclined to recommend it, perhaps with caveats. And I would say that this overall survival benefit mostly corroborates that, even if there are some concerns about how these trials are done, but it's still an impressive difference that would lead me to only cement my practice of pursuing it in this setting. I just would love to re-examine how we conduct these trials and potentially potentiate disparities that exist and don't want to have our trials be more positive by capitalizing on that.   Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Let's move on to the next abstract, LBA100; this is the KEYNOTE-671 trial. This was featured during the meeting's Clinical Science Symposium. This is a study of pembrolizumab or placebo plus platinum doublet followed by surgical resection and pembrolizumab or placebo for early-stage non-small cell lung cancer. Jack, what was the key message from this trial, and do you consider this as practice-changing?  Dr. Jack West: This has been an area where we've seen really dramatic evolution in our practice patterns, specifically, at least for patients who don't have a tumor harboring an EGFR mutation or ALK rearrangement. I would say that there has been some momentum toward preoperative neoadjuvant therapy, specifically based on the CheckMate-816 trial that gave chemo with nivolumab versus placebo and showed a significant improvement in the pathologic complete response rate at surgery as well as event-free survival. The overall survival looks encouraging but is still early and hasn't met the threshold for statistical significance, and that's FDA-approved.   But we still question whether there's a value to doing anything in the postoperative setting. And the CheckMate-816 trial did not include that as part of the trial. It allowed postoperative management at the judgment of the treating physician but didn't really prescribe anything. We now have the results of several trials in the last few months that have added a component in the postoperative setting in addition to three or four cycles of preoperative chemoimmunotherapy. And the first one that gave us a glimpse was the AEGEAN trial presented by Dr. John Heymach at AACR in April of this year that looked at chemo and durvalumab versus chemo placebo and then followed by a year of durvalumab versus placebo after surgery. That showed results in terms of major pathologic response and event-free survival that are significantly better with immunotherapy. Not clearly superior to what we would see with CheckMate-816.   And then even more recently, we saw a monthly Plenary presentation from ASCO with the Neotorch trial presented by Dr. Shun Lu of China. This was a Chinese trial only that presented results just for patients with stage 3 disease thus far. This included patients with stage 2 or stage 3, but what we saw is stage 3 results and that looked at chemo with toripalimab for 3 cycles versus placebo and then a year of checkpoint inhibitor or placebo. This also shows a benefit with the addition of immunotherapy, but not clear if that's better than what we can already achieve with neoadjuvant alone with the Checkmate-816 approach.   And then what we have now is a presentation and simultaneous publication by Dr. Heather Wakelee of KEYNOTE-671. And this is really almost the exact same trial design as AEGEAN. It's 4 cycles of platinum doublet chemotherapy and it is for patients with stage 2 to 3a disease. And this gave 4 cycles of chemotherapy with placebo or pembrolizumab. And then after surgery, patients would go on in the investigation arm to a year of pembrolizumab or to the additional year with placebo. And this shows a significant improvement in event-free survival with a hazard ratio of 0.58. It's most prominent in patients with high PD-L1, where the hazard ratio is 0.42. But there's still a benefit in patients with PD-L1 less than 1%, where it's 0.77. And there was a trend toward better overall survival here, hazard ratio of 0.73. It does not reach statistical significance at this early point. It's still preliminary but certainly looks encouraging. And there are also significant improvements in major pathologic response, where less than 10%, about a threefold difference from 30.2% with immunotherapy compared to 11% with placebo. And a very impressive improvement in pCR rate, which is 18.1% with the chemo and pembro compared to 4% with chemotherapy alone. Not surprisingly, when we look at event-free survival, it's best in the patients who achieve a pathologic complete response, but pembrolizumab improved outcomes in event-free survival even for those who didn't achieve a pCR.   The real question I would say is does the addition of a year of checkpoint inhibitor therapy postoperatively add to what we already achieve with those first three cycles with chemo-neo or 4 cycles with maybe one of these other options? And these trials can't answer that question because they just include them as a package deal. There's no way to tease apart right now the component of what incremental benefits you get from that. And it certainly adds a year of time coming in for every 3-week infusions. Even if you space that out, it's still a year of coming in and getting infusions, potential cumulative immune-related toxicities, and a lot of cost versus potentially being done. And I think that really is the big question at this point of do you want to recommend something when we don't really have a precedent for much benefit beyond the first 4 cycles? Perhaps. Certainly, we give maintenance pemetrexed and other immunotherapies and there can be benefit there. So, I wouldn't say you necessarily cap that. But if there is resistant disease after the first 4 cycles you've already given 3 cycles, how much benefit is there? How likely is it that you're going to eradicate the last cancer cells with more?   That said, I think many patients, and oncologists myself perhaps included, are going to be inclined to err on the side of possibly over-treating, but at least trying to give everything that is part of a widely studied, FDA-approved approach once these options become available. I just think it's going to end up as a careful discussion with each patient about whether they'd prefer to just say they're done or do that extra year and really feel that even if it comes back, they've done everything that made sense to try.  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Very good points, Jack. So let's move on to another abstract, which is the LBA9000. This is the KEYNOTE-789 trial. In my opinion, this is the most important negative phase 3 trial in lung cancer in a while. This is a trial looking at pemetrexed platinum with or without pembrolizumab in patients who have EGFR mutation-positive metastatic non-small cell lung cancer. So, what are your key takeaways, Jack?  Dr. Jack West: Well, I would say essentially we've been waiting to figure out what is the best treatment approach for patients with acquired resistance after osimertinib. And most of the patients had received osimertinib for their EGFR mutation-positive non-small cell. This is essentially KEYNOTE-189 being run in the EGFR mutation-positive patients after they've exhausted at least the major benefit of EGFR TKI therapy.   What we saw was a hazard ratio for progression-free survival of 0.8. It didn't quite make it across the threshold for efficacy, a significant difference. And so it missed that efficacy boundary. And overall survival, the hazard ratio is 0.84, also missing the efficacy boundary. When you look at the actual curves, they show modest separation, nothing eye-popping, certainly compared to some of the other trials we're talking about. But I wouldn't say they show no benefit. And I think that's, to me, why there's really still a role for a nuanced thought process and maybe some discussion about how negative this is. This is not, in my mind, stone-cold negative with no patients benefiting from immunotherapy. This is a trial that really suggests that there's a subset of patients who are benefiting from immunotherapy.   And we've also seen going back to subset analysis of the IMpower150 trial and also the ORIENT-31 trial with sintilimab and a bevacizumab biosimilar, another anti-VEGF inhibitor. These trials both really indicated a benefit in this population after EGFR TKI therapy of immunotherapy combined with VEGF. I think there could still be a value in there. I don't want to be a Pollyanna or too open-minded, but I think that there was at least a suggestion that this could still be a fruitful avenue. I think that this is still something we should do additional studies on that could bear fruit. I wouldn't close the door and categorically say this is just never going to translate to any benefit for any of these patients.   Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: The key thing, though, is, like in EGFR mutant patients I think in the previous studies as well, the response rates with single-agent PD-1 have been very minimal. And I think one of the things that's actually very important to highlight is in the operative setting, the early-stage setting, unfortunately, some of the trials with immunotherapy have included patients with an EGFR mutation. And now we have a treatment option for those patients within the adjuvant setting, especially osimertinib. We just heard from the ADAURA trial, which has a clear significant overall survival benefit. So I think it's really important to test for EGFR mutation in all stages. And if somebody with the early stage has an EGFR mutation, adjuvant immunotherapy, or perioperative immunotherapy may not be the best option for those patients.  Dr. Jack West: Right. I agree with that, although it is interesting that the KEYNOTE-671 trial did have some small population of patients with an EGFR mutation, and in that subset analysis, they seem to benefit from the pembrolizumab. I would not say that we should divert from ADAURA, but I'm just not as sure that our previous statement and mindset that immunotherapy just categorically doesn't work for patients with driver mutations is that simple.   First of all, there is some heterogeneity about which driver mutation, and the ALK-positive patients seem to really get no benefit. But I think there's still some questions about immunotherapy for EGFR. Certainly, patients with KRAS or BRAF V600E seem to benefit like the broader range of patients. And I would also say maybe it's different whether you're giving immunotherapy combined with chemotherapy versus as monotherapy. So that's why I'm just not that sure we really can characterize this that well yet.   The one additional point I would make about KEYNOTE-789 and the potential role of immunotherapy is that some experts in thoracic oncology and general oncologists alike may prefer to introduce chemotherapy at a time of progression, but keep the osimertinib going, maybe particularly for patients with brain metastases, whether current or a history of them, where we really feel that the osimertinib adds a critical component to CNS control. We don't want to ever give osimertinib or probably other EGFR TKIs concurrently with immunotherapy. So that's just a factor that we'd really want to consider when we're prioritizing where to fit in immunotherapy, if at all.  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Thank you, Jack. And let's move on to the next abstract, Abstract 9002. This is a pivotal study of results from the sunvozertinib, which is an EGFR exon 20 insertion site mutation drug. There's some very promising data. Jack, how do you feel this study is going to influence practice?  Dr. Jack West: Well, this is not an agent we have access to broadly yet, but I was quite impressed by it overall. I didn't mention it. We talked about it in the pre-ASCO discussion, and it was really one that I would mark as potentially practice-changing when we can get it. DZD 9008 or sunvozertinib is a potent inhibitor of exon 20 insertion mutations, and this was 97 patients, and the majority had had a couple of lines of prior therapy. They had to have gotten chemo, and the response rate was 60%, and it was really comparable efficacy with the different mutation subtypes.   I think that the main thing that I would want to clarify a little better in my own patient population is how well the drug is really tolerated. We talked about that there was not really much grade 3 toxicity and that's true, but diarrhea rates were 67%, even though it was grade 3 and just about 8%. But grade 2 diarrhea or grade 2 rash in patients who are on this therapy, we hope for a long time, I think is something we shouldn't minimize. And I think that particularly our mindset about toxicity needs to be different when we're talking about giving a treatment for 2 or 4 cycles and then being done with it versus something we hope we're going to be giving longitudinally. And we really don't want to minimize the potential impact on the quality of life of patients who are experiencing grade 2 rash, diarrhea, or paronychia for months and months, maybe more than a year at a time.   But that said, this is twice the response rate if not more than that of what we have already had for patients with this molecular aberration with an exon 20 insertion. So I think it's compelling and I think that it's going to be really valuable to offer to our patients. I just would like to clarify better how well patients who are actually on it are feeling when you incorporate the potentially chronic toxicity issues.  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Thank you, Jack. And let's move on to the last abstract. This the LUNAR study, LBA9005. This is a positive phase 3 study that looked at tumor-treating fields or TTF therapy with standard of care treatments in metastatic non-small-cell lung cancer following platinum failure. This has been talked about a lot at ASCO, and Jack I'm eager to hear your key takeaways about this study.  Dr. Jack West: Well, we knew from a press release several months ago, I think back in February, that there was a significant improvement in overall survival with the addition of tumor-treated fields. Again, this concept that electric fields can lead to antimitotic effect and potentially downstream induction of immunogenic cell death and enhanced immune response, that's at least the concept. And it's of course established, has utility in patients with glioblastoma, although kind of, I would say underutilized because it can be cumbersome. And I think that's one of the things we need to factor in is that this is not the easiest approach to pursue.   But we don't have that many therapies that improve overall survival significantly in previously treated patients with non-small cell lung cancer. So, I think there's good reason to focus on this and ask how beneficial it is. It was notable, it was pretty much an even split of patients enrolled on the trial, 276 patients total, but about half had gotten chemo but not gotten immunotherapy before. And then the other half, I would say the clear majority, had gotten immunotherapy as well as chemo and got docetaxel-based treatment.     And the overall survival benefit was significant for the intent to treat total population with a hazard ratio of 0.74 and a difference in 3-year survival of 18% favoring the addition of tumor-treating fields on the chest versus 7% in the patients who didn't. It really seemed to separate between the patients who had not had an immune checkpoint inhibitor and got tumor-treating fields with the checkpoint inhibitor where the hazard ratio is 0.63 and those who got tumor-treating fields with docetaxel where the hazard ratio was 0.81. So it really wasn't significant in this population.  Toxicity, no real surprises compared to what we already knew about tumor-treating fields. Mostly dermatitis, but I would say that one of the kind of unmeasured issues is that this is a device that people have to wear on their chest carrying a battery pack with them all day long. It's essentially all the waking day, and so I think that's at least cumbersome. I wouldn't call it prohibitive, but it's a challenge. And I think we need to really ask whether the juice is worth the squeeze, whether the benefit is that compelling. And I question that when we're talking about an agent that doesn't significantly move the needle against docetaxel alone.   Again, this is a population where in the U.S. we have ramucirumab to add to docetaxel. Not everyone does that. It's not uniform, but that has a statistically significant, though modest survival benefit associated with that. We don't do better than that with tumor treating fields. And so, I think that this is an option that merits discussion and some patients may opt for it, but I suspect that most of my patients would not find the absolute difference to be that compelling for the challenges it incurs. I don't know what your perspective is here.  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: I completely agree, Jack. And I think the study design and just the fact that the standard of care has changed over the last 5, actually 6 years since the study has been open. And I'm not really so sure I could really make much sense of the data in terms of the standard of care combination with TTF providing more benefit. And I think there are more questions than answers here and I'm not so sure which populations would benefit the most. And I think, I hate to say this, but this is a nice proof of concept. I hate to say this because it's a phase 3 study and it's a positive phase 3 study, but it's clinical relevance with the current standard of care, I think, I'm not really sure how much of an impact this would really have.    Well, Jack, I've really enjoyed speaking with you about these key advances in lung cancer that were featured at the 2023 ASCO Annual Meeting. Our listeners will find links to all the studies discussed today in the transcript of this episode. Thank you so much, Jack, for joining us today.  Dr. Jack West: Always a pleasure. Thanks so much.  Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: And just like that, we've reached the end of another enriching episode. But remember, like all good things, this too must come to an end, but only until we meet again. We really would like your feedback on the podcast. If you enjoyed the podcast, please rate, review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.  Disclaimer:    The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.   Follow today's speakers:   Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti   @VamsiVelcheti   Dr. H. Jack West   @JackWestMD   Follow ASCO on social media:    @ASCO on Twitter   ASCO on Facebook   ASCO on LinkedIn      Disclosures:    Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti:   Honoraria: ITeos Therapeutics   Consulting or Advisory Role: Bristol-Myers Squibb, Merck, Foundation Medicine, AstraZeneca/MedImmune, Novartis, Lilly, EMD Serono, GSK, Amgen, Elevation Oncology, Taiho Oncology, Merus   Research Funding (Inst.): Genentech, Trovagene, Eisai, OncoPlex Diagnostics, Alkermes, NantOmics, Genoptix, Altor BioScience, Merck, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Atreca, Heat Biologics, Leap Therapeutics, RSIP Vision, GlaxoSmithKline     Dr. Jack West:   Honoraria: AstraZeneca, Genentech/Roche, Merck, Takeda, Mirati, Regneron, Amgen, Abbvie   Consulting or Advisory Role: AstraZeneca, Genentech/Roche, Merck, Takeda, Mirati Therapeutics, Regneron, Amgen, Abbvie, Summit Therapeutics   Speakers' Bureau: Takeda, Merck, AstraZeneca        

Drs. Vamsi Velcheti and Jack West discuss key abstracts in advanced SCLC and NSCLC, along with highlighting the largest known data set correlating ctDNA levels and efficacy outcomes in the EMPOWER-Lung 1 trial, in advance of the 2023 ASCO Annual Meeting. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Hello, I am Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti, your guest host of the ASCO Daily News Podcast today. I am a professor of medicine at NYU Grossman School of Medicine and the director of thoracic oncology at Perlmutter Cancer Center at NYU Langone Health. I am delighted to welcome Dr. Jack West, a thoracic oncologist and associate professor in medicine at the City of Hope Comprehensive Cancer Center.                                  Today, we'll be discussing key posters and oral abstracts in lung cancer that will be featured at the 2023 ASCO Annual Meeting.  Our full disclosures are available in the transcript of this episode and disclosures relating to all episodes of the podcast are available on our transcripts at asco.org/DNpod.  Jack, it's great to have you on the podcast today. Dr. Jack West: Well, thank you so much, it's my pleasure to be here.  Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Let's begin with Abstract 8512. This is the follow-up of the Gronberg trial, the Danish trial of BID thoracic radiation for limited-stage small cell lung cancer. What are your key takeaways from this trial? Dr. Jack West: Well, as you noted, this has been presented before a few years ago. It's a trial for limited-stage small cell lung cancer and it directly compared chemotherapy with either 45 Gray or 60 Gray of chest radiation delivered twice daily. It's not an enormous study, it's 170 eligible patients. And years ago, we saw that the efficacy endpoints looked very promising for the patients who received a higher dose of 60 Gray on a BID schedule, which is above our standard. We generally either give 45 Gray BID or probably more commonly in the US and I think globally give maybe 60 Gray on a once-a-day schedule. But the efficacy looked quite promising and without any clear increase in the toxicity of it. And really, despite the impressive results, this hasn't changed practice. It is not a large study and I think that I would say that most of the radiation oncology world has been reserving judgment until potentially seeing a larger study.  But what's being presented at ASCO are the longer-term results that continue to look excellent. You have a progression-free survival median of 18.6 months versus 10.9 months. That's not statistically significant but has a hazard ratio of 0.76 associated with it. And the median overall survival is even more pronounced of 43.5 months favoring the 60 Gray arm compared to 22.6 months in 45 Gray on a BID schedule that has a hazard ratio of 0.69. And this is statistically significant. The authors note that they will be presenting five-year overall survival as well. And there's also just passing mention that, as was seen previously, there was no increase in toxicity, no prohibitive toxicity. So I don't think it's necessarily going to change practice because the numbers of patients, which I think are really the leading concern, hasn't changed. But these very promising results still hold up over time and I think should compel us to carefully assess this as an option to potentially increase outcomes for this challenging setting where progress is slow to come. Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Yeah, I completely agree, Jack. And I think one of the things that we have seen, at least in the non-small cell setting, like the higher dose of conventional radiation is not superior to the 45 Gray, BID dosing. I think there were some studies with CALGB and the Gronberg trial, but I think at the end of the day, it comes down to patient conveniencer. It's not often feasible for patients to come in twice a day for radiation. That might be something that might limit utilization here.  Dr. Jack West: I think that's a very good point. It's just difficult when you have the potential for higher cure rates, but it is at least challenging, if not completely infeasible. But I really agree with you that that's a big part of why it's underutilized relative to the strength of the data for BID. But we have to be able to actually administer these. Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: So let's move on to another trial. And again, we've seen the data before. This is Abstract 8521, the CheckMate-816 trial. They reported the three-year results of the neoadjuvant nivolumab chemotherapy versus chemotherapy by definitive surgery in patients with resected non-smoker lung cancer. What is the data that's being presented at ASCO this year? Dr. Jack West: So yes, as you mentioned, we've seen data on CheckMate-816 for a few years now. It's been published in the New England Journal of Medicine and it's FDA-approved and has become a standard of care, if not the standard of care, but there are many dimensions to this. And one of the questions has been what happens to the patients who did not undergo surgery, which was about 17% of patients on the chemoimmunotherapy arm, a full quarter of patients on the chemo arm. What happened to these folks? And that's what is being presented by Dr. Jonathan Spicer, a thoracic surgeon in Montreal who's been heavily involved with this trial. And I think that's going to be the overwhelming focus of this.  And what is reported in the abstract, and I'm sure we'll see more interesting results, is that the outcomes are superior in the patients who received chemoimmunotherapy with nivolumab, in the patients who did not undergo surgery as well as those who did. Specifically, they report on the median time before death or distant metastases, and that was 24.8 months as a median for the chemoimmunotherapy arm versus 15.6 months for the patients who receive neoadjuvant chemo alone. The hazard ratio for that's 0.63. There was also a striking difference in the three-year survival rates, 36% versus 13% also favoring chemo and nivolumab.  They also talked about the actual treatments that patients received when they didn't have surgery, and about 60% in both of those arms received radiation instead of surgery, and about half the patients also received additional systemic therapy. So we will see more. But I think it helps to address one lingering question of what happens to the patients who did not end up pursuing surgery and showing that the results were more favorable for the recipients of chemo nivolumab, even in that subset. Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: It's simply fascinating how the field is evolving in the perioperative space, Jack. And there are more unanswered questions here and up for debate for years with the recent agent trials we had seen at AACR. We've seen the same kind of trend even with the agent, I think it was 20%, who did not make it to surgery. A lot of them are like stage 3 patients. So it begs the question, are we kind of just being more aggressive with induction therapy? Maybe some of these patients are biologically or anatomically not bound to have surgery. I mean, it's hard to really tell. Dr. Jack West: It really is important for us to still select appropriate patients for this, rather than become overly ambitious and try to shoehorn patients who are really not ideal or appropriate candidates for surgery and anticipate or have kind of aspirational resectability if they aren't de novo great candidates for surgery. We, of course, need to remember that chemoradiation followed by consolidation durvalumab on the PACIFIC trial is not some terrible consolation prize. We've done remarkably better with this over the years, and it's a very strong option.  Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Exactly. The other open question, but of course this abstract doesn't really address is, what do you do with all the patients who perhaps have major pathologic responses and what do you do after surgery? That's kind of an open question, and we probably need a better way to determine who might need adjuvant therapy or surgery. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.  Dr. Jack West: As you say, I think that's a big question, a gaping hole in our knowledge base, but it's not addressed here. I think we are going to be struggling with that in the coming years.   Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Right. So let's move on to Abstract 9002. This is a report of the first pivotal study results of DZD9008 sunvozertinib in patients with exon 20 EGFR mutation. What are your key takeaways from the study? Dr. Jack West: So I would say obviously we have a couple of agents that target EGFR exon 20 mutations, but unfortunately, neither of the agents that are commercially available is especially active. And they certainly have toxicity challenges, whether it's amivantinab or mobocertinib,  they both share some challenges and they're not as efficacious as some of the other targeted therapies we use in different molecular settings. So I would say there's still some unmet need here. And these results with sunvozertinib DZD9008 selective irreversible EGFRexon20 insertion inhibitor really got my attention as very impressive. These are patients who were heavily pretreated. The median was two prior lines of therapy. This is not de novo first line, and that's a setting where it's pretty hard to see response rates that are over 30 or 40%, but what they actually report is about 60.8% response rate and nearly 100 patients assessed. They also looked at patients who had brain metastases and 31 patients in their sample had de novo metastases and the intracranial response rate was 48.5%, so nearly half.  This is, of course, something that we hope to see as a pattern when we have a targeted therapy that's very effective for the right target, not just overall extracranial, but intracranial efficacy. And we're going to need to see the details on the tolerability because, as I mentioned, the available agents now have the dual challenge of just modest efficacy and really quite challenging, particularly GI toxicities and amivantamab has issues also with infusion reactions. So some work there and I think there's room to improve on that. This looks to me very promising and I would welcome having the opportunity to use it in my patients who have an exon20 mutation.  Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Yeah, I think certainly the brain intracranial activity is perhaps going to be the differentiator here. Given that mobocertinib has limited intracranial activity, I think that's very encouraging to see. So let's move on to the next abstract, the SCARLET trial, Abstract 9006. So this is a clinical trial of sotorasib plus chemotherapy in KRAS G12C-positive patients. Can you tell us a little bit more about this study, Dr. West? Dr. Jack West: Sure. So this was a single-arm phase II trial. It's not large, it's 30 patients, but we really have yet to see results that would compel me to move sotorasib into the first-line setting. I was a little underwhelmed with the CodeBreaK 200 results that didn't beat docetaxel for survival in the second-line setting. But here it's a combination of carboplatin pemetrexed with sodorasib in the first-line setting in patients, of course, with a KRAS G12C mutation and nonsquamous histology. And the reported response rate by independent review is 88.9%, which is quite impressive. The median PFS is not reached yet. The PFS at six months is 61.2%. So I think we'll need to see the full data set, but that really impresses me as a very relevant finding. So I would love to learn more about this. And I think that if it is anything close to holding up with these response rates, close to 90%, I mean, even if it's 70 or 80%, I think that is compelling enough to really want to study this further in the first line setting and maybe a path to getting KRAS inhibitors used in the front line. Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Yeah, I completely agree. And I think with all the issues around the combination with checkpoint inhibitors, especially with sotorasib high liver toxicity, so I think the only way this could move into the frontline is with combination with chemotherapy, especially in certain subsets like KEAP1 CUL drug patients, STK11/KEAP1 patients where immunotherapy historically underperforms. So it'll be interesting to see how this can evolve.  So, moving on to Abstract 9012, this is a clinical trial evaluating a often very neglected patient population. This is a retrospective study of chemo without immunotherapy in the elderly population of patients with PD-L1-positive tumors. So what is your takeaway from this study? Dr. Jack West: I would say that it really complements in my mind the presentation by Dr. Akinboro and colleagues from the FDA last year at ASCO, which was looking at the data for the trials of immunotherapy or chemoimmunotherapy in patients with high PD-L1 50% or higher. And what they found was that there was an improvement in response rate and progression-free survival and a trend, but not a significant difference in overall survival favoring chemoimmunotherapy in those patients. But they also noted that patients who were 75 or older did not seem to benefit from chemoimmunotherapy relative to immunotherapy alone. Now, that is in patients with high tumor PD-L1. This is looking specifically at patients who are 75 and older in Japan, 58 centers, and we're talking about over 1,200 patients, 1,245. And they looked at patients with any PD-L1. So the full spectrum, about 22% had PD-L1 less than 1%,31%, one to 49%, and just over a third, 34% with PD-L1 over 50%. I would presume the balance, that missing 13%, was not tested. But these are real-world data and they have strengths and limitations relative to controlled clinical trials.  But I think that there is some power in numbers and real-world data. And what they saw was that the patients who received chemoimmunotherapy had a median overall survival of 20 months. It was 19.8 months with a checkpoint inhibitor alone. And those data for both of those conditions are far better than a platinum doublet alone with a median overall survival of 12.8 months. Single-agent chemo just median overall survival of 9.5 months. And then when they looked at toxicities, saw that the grade three or higher immune-related adverse events was clearly higher in the patients who had chemoimmunotherapy, they had a greater need for steroids and a greater probability of pneumonitis than the patients over 75 who received a checkpoint inhibitor alone.  And so I would say it's not randomized data. You can only take this so far, but the fact is that it, I think, complements what we saw from the FDA. And that would help me in a situation where we need to make a nuanced decision, there's competing potential standards of care. I think this is informative along with the IPSOS trial that has been presented in some other settings and shows a benefit for in that setting was atezolizumab, I believe, first as the immunotherapy for older patients and PS2. So I think that we're seeing converging evidence to support this concept. Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Yeah, and I completely agree. And I think sometimes the clinical nuances at the individual patient level, I think there are so many other factors that we can actually look at the real-world data, like, for example, tumor burden and medical tomographies. There's so many things that we need to factor into while making those decisions.  Let's move on to the next abstract. This is Abstract 9022. This is an abstract looking at correlations of ctDNA levels and efficacy outcomes in the EMPOWER-Lung 1 trial. What are your key takeaways from this study? Dr. Jack West: I would love to use ctDNA for clinical decision-making in a few years. I think it could be as pivotal as PET scans, but we don't have the data yet to show that you can use the results to improve outcomes. But this is looking at ctDNA in a different setting, as you mentioned, it's looking at the EMPOWER-Lung 1 trial, which was cemiplimab versus chemotherapy in patients with PD-L1 over 50% and did not have a driver mutation. They had ctDNA samples available from 175 patients who were pretty evenly split between chemo and checkpoint inhibitor cemiplimab. What they found was that molecular response, or particularly complete molecular response, if it was seen as in complete eradication of ctDNA at week nine, so after three cycles, was highly correlated with imaging-based response for patients who got cemiplimab. It was not correlated for the patients who got chemotherapy and, perhaps not surprisingly, the patients who had a complete molecular response that was associated with the best overall survival, an immediate overall survival of 29 months compared to the rather dismal results for patients who had no drop in their ctDNA, where the median overall survival was just eight months.  So, I think that it would be wonderful to be able to use this as a help. We know that sometimes patients have ambiguous imaging. There is the possibility of pseudoprogression and just potentially pneumonitis, making it difficult to interpret. I think that ctDNA could be helpful in that situation, but also for early feedback on who might benefit from intensification and adding chemotherapy, who we should cut our losses and switch to something else other than cemiplimab. And in the best-case scenarios, we do have a subset of patients who are doing extraordinarily well, potentially one or a couple of years later, and we just don't know if or whether to stop it and whether patients can do just as well after stopping after a prolonged period on treatment compared to staying on it. And we don't want to give this for years longer at the expense of cumulative toxicities and requiring a patient to come in for ongoing treatments month after month, year after year, for any longer than they would need.  I think that there's great potential utility for this as a concept. But again, at some point, what we'll really need is not to just apply this retrospectively, but prospectively to guide therapeutic decisions, to see if we can have patients do better by intensifying for those patients who need it or de-intensifying for patients who don't. Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: It's great, Jack. And I completely agree. I think those kinds of de-escalation trials are very much needed. I'm hoping that we'll get there very soon.   Thank you so much, Dr. West, for sharing your valuable insights with us today on the ASCO Daily News Podcast. We really appreciate your time. Thank you so much. Look forward to seeing you in Chicago. Dr. Jack West: Awesome. Great.  Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: And I'd like to thank all the listeners for joining us today. If you value the insights that you hear on the ASCO Daily News Podcast, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you so much.  Disclaimer: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experiences, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.   Follow today's speakers: Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti @VamsiVelcheti Dr. H. Jack West @JackWestMD  Follow ASCO on social media: @ASCO on Twitter ASCO on Facebook ASCO on LinkedIn   Disclosures:  Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Honoraria: ITeos Therapeutics Consulting or Advisory Role: Bristol-Myers Squibb, Merck, Foundation Medicine, AstraZeneca/MedImmune, Novartis, Lilly, EMD Serono, GSK, Amgen, Elevation Oncology, Taiho Oncology, Merus Research Funding (Inst.): Genentech, Trovagene, Eisai, OncoPlex Diagnostics, Alkermes, NantOmics, Genoptix, Altor BioScience, Merck, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Atreca, Heat Biologics, Leap Therapeutics, RSIP Vision, GlaxoSmithKline  Dr. Jack West: Honoraria: AstraZeneca, Genentech/Roche, Merck, Takeda, Mirati, Regneron, Amgen, Abbvie Consulting or Advisory Role: AstraZeneca, Genentech/Roche, Merck, Takeda, Mirati Therapeutics, Regneron, Amgen, Abbvie, Summit Therapeutics Speakers' Bureau: Takeda, Merck, AstraZeneca

Dr. Vamsi Velcheti and Dr. Benjamin Neel, of the NYU Langone Perlmutter Cancer Center, and Dr. John Heymach, of MD Anderson Cancer Center, discuss new therapeutic approaches for KRAS-mutant lung cancers and therapy options for RAS-altered tumors.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Hello, I'm Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti, your guest host for the ASCO Daily News podcast today. I'm the medical director of the Thoracic Oncology Program at Perlmutter Cancer Center at NYU Langone Health. I'm delighted to welcome two internationally renowned physician-scientists, Dr. John Heymach, the chair of Thoracic-Head & Neck Medical Oncology at the MD Anderson Cancer Center, and my colleague, Dr. Benjamin Neel, the director of the Perlmutter Cancer Center at NYU Langone Health, and professor of Medicine at NYU Grossman School of Medicine. So, we'll be discussing new therapeutic approaches today for KRAS-mutant lung cancers, and we will talk about emerging new targeted therapy options for RAS-altered tumors. Our full disclosures are available in the show notes, and the disclosures of all the guests of the podcast can be found on our transcript at: asco.org/podcast. Dr. Heymach and Dr. Neel, it's such a great pleasure to have you here for the podcast today. Dr. John Heymach: My pleasure to be here. Dr. Benjamin Neel: Same here. Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Dr. Neel, let's start off with you. As you know, RAS oncogenes were first discovered nearly four decades ago. Why is RAS such a challenging therapeutic target? Why has it taken so long to develop therapeutic options for these patients? Dr. Benjamin Neel: Well, I think a good analogy is the difference between kinase inhibitors and RAS inhibitors. So, kinase inhibitors basically took advantage of an ATP-binding pocket that's present in all kinases, but is different from kinase to kinase, and can be accessed by small molecule inhibitors. So, the standard approach that one would've thought of taking, would be to go after the GTP-binding pocket. The only problem is that the affinity for binding GTP by KRAS is three to four orders of magnitude higher. So, actually getting inhibitors that are GTP-binding inhibitors is pretty much very difficult. And then, until recently, it was felt that RAS was a very flat molecule and there weren't any surfaces that you could stick a small molecule inhibitor in. So, from a variety of biochemical and medicinal-pharmacological reasons, RAS was thought to be impervious to small molecule development. But as is often the case, a singular and seminal insight from a scientist, Kevan Shokat, really broke the field open, and now there's a whole host of new approaches to trying to drug RAS. Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: So, Dr. Neel, can you describe those recent advances in drug design that have enabled these noble new treatments for KRAS-targeted therapies? Dr. Benjamin Neel: So, it starts actually with the recognition that for many years, people were going after the wrong RAS. And by the wrong RAS, the overwhelming majority of the earlier studies on the structure, and for that matter, the function of RAS centered on HRAS or Harvey RAS. We just mutated in some cancers, most prominently, bladder cancer, and head & neck cancer, but not on KRAS, which is the really major player in terms of oncogenes in human cancer. So, first of all, we were studying the wrong RAS. The second thing is that we were sort of thinking that all RAS mutants were the same. And even from the earliest days, back in the late eighties, it was pretty clear that there were different biochemical properties in all different RAS mutants. But this sort of got lost in the cause and in the intervening time, and as a result, people thought all RASes were the same and they were just studying mainly G12V and G12D, which are more difficult to drug. And then, the third and most fundamental insight was the idea of trying to take advantage of a particular mutation in KRAS, which is present in a large fraction of lung cancer patients, which is, KRAS G12C. So, that's a mutation of glycine 12 to cysteine and Kevan's really seminal study was to use a library of covalently adducting drugs, and try to find ways to tether a small molecule in close enough so that it could hit the cysteine. And what was really surprising was when they actually found the earliest hits with this strategy, which was actually based on some early work by Jim Wells at Sunesis in the early part of this century, they found that it was actually occupying the G12C state or the inactive state of RAS. And this actually hearkens back to what I said earlier about all RASes being the same. And in fact, what's been recently re-appreciated is that some RAS mutants, most notably, G12C, although they're impervious to the gap which converts the active form into the inactive form, they still have a certain amount of intrinsic ability to convert from the inactive form. And so, they always cycle into the inactive form at some slow rate, and that allows them to be accessed by these small molecules in the so-called Switch-II Pocket, and that enables them to position a warhead close enough to the cysteine residue to make a covalent adduct and inactivate the protein irreversibly. Scientists at a large number of pharmaceutical companies and also academic labs began to understand how to access various other pockets in RAS, and also even new strategies, taking advantage of presenting molecules to RAS on a chaperone protein. So, there's now a whole host of strategies; you have a sort of an embarrassment of riches from an impoverished environment that we started with prior to 2012. Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Thank you, Dr. Neel. So, Dr. Heymach, lung cancer has been a poster child for personalized therapy, and we've had like a lot of FDA-approved agents for several molecularly-defined subsets of lung cancer. How clinically impactful is a recent approval of Sotoracib for patients with metastatic lung cancer? Dr. John Heymach: Yeah. Well, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this is the biggest advance for targeted therapies for lung cancer since the initial discovery of EGFR inhibitors. And let me talk about that in a little more detail. You know, the way that lung cancer therapy, like a lot of other cancer therapies, has advanced is by targeting specific driver oncogenes. And as Dr. Neel mentioned before, tyrosine kinases are a large percentage of those oncogenes and we've gotten very good at targeting tyrosine kinases developing inhibitors. They all sort of fit into the same ATP pocket, or at least the vast majority of them now. There are some variations on that idea now like allosteric inhibitors. And so, the field has just got better and better. And so, for lung cancer, the field evolved from EGFR to ALK, to ROS1 RET fusions, MEK, and so forth. What they all have in common is, they're all tyrosine kinases. But the biggest oncogene, and it's about twice as big as EGFR mutation, are KRAS mutations. And as you mentioned, this isn't a tyrosine kinase. We never had an inhibitor. And the first one to show that it's targetable, to have the first drug that does this, is really such an important breakthrough. Because once the big breakthrough and the concept is there, the pharmaceutical companies in the field can be really good at improving and modulating that. And that's exactly what we see. So, from that original insight that led to the design of the first G12C inhibitors, now there's dozens, literally dozens of G12C inhibitors and all these other inhibitors based on similar concepts. So, the first one now to go into the clinic and be FDA-approved is Sotoracib. So, this again, as you've heard, is inhibitor G12C, and it's what we call an irreversible inhibitor. So, it fits into this pocket, and it covalently links with G12C. So, when it's linked, it's linked, it's not coming off. Now, the study that led to its FDA approval was called the CodeBreak 100 study. And this was led in part, by my colleague Ferdinandos Skoulidis, and was published in The New England Journal in the past year. And, you know, there they studied 126 patients, and I'll keep just a brief summary, these were all refractory lung cancer patients. They either had first-line therapy, most had both chemo and immunotherapy. The primary endpoint was objective response rate. And for the study, the objective response rate was 37%, the progression-free survival was 6.8 months, the overall survival was 12.5 months. Now you might say, well, 37%, that's not as good as an EGFR inhibitor or the others. Well, this is a much harder thing to inhibit. And you have to remember in this setting, the standard of care was docetaxel chemotherapy. And docetaxel usually has a response rate of about 10 to 13%, progression-free survival of about 3 months. So, to more than double that with a targeted drug and have a longer PFS really is a major advance. But it's clear, we've got to improve on this and I think combinations are going to be incredibly important now. There's a huge number of combination regimens now in testing. Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Thank you, Dr. Heymach. So, Dr. Neel, just following up on that, unlike other targeted therapies in lung cancer, like EGFR, ALK, ROS, and RET, the G12C inhibitors appear to have somewhat modest, I mean, though, certainly better than docetaxel that Dr. Heymach was just talking about; why is it so hard to have more effective inhibitor of KRAS here? Is it due to the complex nature of RAS-mutant tumors? Or is it our approach for targeting RAS? Is it a drug-related problem, or is it the disease? Dr. Benjamin Neel: Well, the short answer is I think that's a theoretical discussion at this point and there isn't really good data to tell you, but I suspect it's a combination of those things. We'll see with the new RAS(ON) inhibitors, which seem to have deeper responses, even in animal models, if those actually work better in the clinic, then we'll know at least part of it was that we weren't hitting RAS hard enough, at least with the single agents. But I also think that it's highly likely that since KRAS-mutant tumors are enriched in smokers, and smokers have lots of mutations, that they are much more complex tumours, and therefore there's many more ways for them to escape. Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Dr. Heymach, you want to weigh in on that? Dr. John Heymach: Yeah, I think that's right. I guess a couple of different ways to view it is the problem that the current inhibitors are not inhibiting the target well enough, you know, in which case we say we get better and better inhibitors will inhibit it more effectively, or maybe we're inhibiting it, but we're not shutting down all the downstream pathways or the feedback pathways that get turned on in response, in which case the path forward is going to be better combinations. Right now, I think the jury is still out, but I think the data supports that we can do better with better inhibitors, there's room to grow. But it is also going to be really important hitting these compensatory pathways that get turned on. I think it's going to be both, and it seems like KRAS may turn on more compensatory pathways earlier than things like EGFR or ALK2, you know, and I think it's going to be a great scientific question to figure out why that is. Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Right. And just following up on that, Dr. Heymach, so, what do we know so far about primary and acquired resistance to KRAS G12C inhibitors? Dr. John Heymach: Yeah. Well, it's a great question, and we're still very early in understanding this. And here, if we decide to call it primary resistance - meaning you never respond in the first place, and acquired - meaning you respond and then become resistant, we're not sure why some tumors do respond and don't respond initially. Now, it's been known for a long time, tumors differ in what we call their KRAS-dependence. And in cell lines and in mouse models, when you study this in the lab, there are some models where if you block KRAS, those cells will die immediately. They are fully dependent. And there's other ones that become sort of independent and they don't really seem to care if you turn down KRAS, they've sort of moved on to other things they're dependent on. One way this can happen is with undergoing EMT where the cell sort of changes its dependencies. And EMT is probably a reason some of these tumors are resistant, to start with. It may also matter what else is mutated along with KRAS, what we call the co-mutations, the additional mutations that occur along with it. For example, it seems like if this gene KEAP1 is mutated, tumors don't respond as well, to begin with. Now, acquired resistance is something we are gaining some experience with. I can say in the beginning, we all knew there'd be resistance, we were all waiting to see it, and what we were really hoping for was the case like with first-generation inhibitors with EGFR, where there was one dominant mechanism. In the first-generation EGFR, we had one mutation; T790M, that was more than half the resistance. And then we could develop drugs for that. But unfortunately, that's not the case. It looks like the resistance mechanisms are very diverse, and lots of different pathways can get turned on. So, for acquired resistance, you can have additional KRAS mutations, like you can have a KRAS G12D or V, or some other allele, or G13, I didn't even realize were commonly mutated, like H95 or Y96 can get mutated as well. So, we might be able to inhibit with better inhibitors. But the more pressing problem is what we call bypass; when these other pathways get turned on. And for bypass, we know that the tumor can turn on MET with MET amplification, NRAS, BRAF, MAP kinase, and we just see a wide variety. So, it's clear to us there isn't going to be a single easy to target solution like there was for EGFR. This is going to be a long-term problem, and we're going to have to work on a lot of different solutions and get smarter about what we're doing. Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Yeah. Thank you very much, Dr. Heymach. And Dr. Neel, just following up on that, so, what do you think our strategies should be or should look like while targeting KRAS-mutant tumors? Like, do we focus on better ways to inhibit RAS, or do we focus on personalized combination approaches based on various alterations or other biomarkers? Dr. Benjamin Neel: Yeah. Well, I'd like to step back a second and be provocative, and say that we've been doing targeted therapies, so to speak, for a long time, and it's absolutely clear that targeted therapies never cure. And so, I think we should ask the bigger question, "Why is it that targeted therapies never cure?" And I would start to conceive of an answer to that question by asking which therapies do cure. And the therapies that we know do cure are immune therapies, or it's therapies that generate durable immune response against the tumor. And the other therapies that we know that are therapies in some cases against some tumors, and radiation therapy in some cases against some tumors. Probably the only way that those actually converge on the first mechanism I said that cures tumors, which is generating a durable immune response. And so, the only way, in my view, it is to durably cure an evolving disease, like a cancer, is to have an army that can fight an evolving disease. And the only army I know of is the immune system. So, I think ultimately, what we need to do is understand in detail, how all of these different mutations that lead to cancer affect immune response and create targetable lesions in the immune response, and then how the drugs we'd give affect that. So, in the big picture, the 50,000-foot picture, that what we really need to spend more attention on, is understanding how the drugs we give and the mutations that are there in the first place affect immune response against the tumor, and ultimately try to develop strategies that somehow pick up an immune response against the tumor. Now in the short run, I think there's also lots of combination strategies that we can think of, John, you know, alluded to some of them earlier. I mean one way for the G12C inhibitors, getting better occupancy of the drug, and also blocking this so-called phenomenon of adaptive resistance, where you derepress the expression of receptor tyrosine kinases, and their ligands, and therefore bypass through normal RAS or upregulate G12C into the GTP state more, that can be attacked by combining, for example, with the SHIP2 inhibitor or a SOS inhibitor. Again, the issue there will be therapeutic index. Can we achieve that with a reasonable therapeutic index? Also in some cases, like not so much in lung cancer, but in colon cancer, it appears as if a single dominant receptor tyrosine kinase pathway, the EGF receptor pathway, is often the mechanism of adaptive resistance to RAS inhibitors, and so, combining a RAS inhibitor with an EGF receptor inhibitor is a reasonable strategy. And then of course, some of the strategies they're already getting at, what I just mentioned before, which is to try to combine RAS inhibitors with checkpoint inhibitors. I think that's an expected and understandable approach, but I think we need to get a lot more sophisticated about the tumor microenvironment, and how that's affecting the immune response. And it's not just going to be, you know, in most cases combining with a checkpoint inhibitor. I think we ought to stop using the term immunotherapy to refer to checkpoint inhibitors. Checkpoint inhibitors are one type of immunotherapy. We don't refer to antibiotics when we mean penicillin. Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Dr. Heymach, as you know, like, there's a lot of discussion about the role of KRAS G12C inhibitors in the frontline setting. Do you envision these drugs are going to be positioning themselves in the frontline setting as a combination, or like as a single agent? Are there like a subset of patients perhaps where you would consider like a single agent up front? Dr. John Heymach: So, I think there's no question G12C inhibitors are moving to the first-line question. And the question is just how you get there. Now, the simplest and most straightforward approach is to say, “Well, we'll take our standard and one standard might be immunotherapy alone, a PD-1 inhibitor alone, or chemo with the PD-1 inhibitor, and just take the G12C inhibitor and put it right on top.” And that's a classic strategy that's followed. That may not be that simple. It's not obvious that these drugs will always work well together or will be tolerated together. So, I think that's still being worked out. Now, an alternative strategy is you could say, “Well, let's get a foot in a door in the first-line setting by finding where chemotherapy and immunotherapy don't work well, and pick that little subgroup.” There are some studies there using STK11-mutant tumors, and they don't respond well to immunotherapy and chemotherapy and say, “Well, let's pick that first.” And that's another strategy, but that's not to get it for everybody in the first-line setting. That's just to pick a little subgroup. Or we may develop KRAS G12C inhibitor combinations by themselves that are so effective they can beat the standard. So, what I think is going to happen is a couple things; I think they'll first be some little niches where it gets in there first. I think eventually, we'll figure out how to combine them with chemotherapy and immunotherapy so it goes on top. And then I think over time, we'll eventually develop just more effective, targeted combos where we can phase out the chemo, where the chemo goes to the back of the line, and this goes to the front of the line. Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: And Dr. Heymach, any thoughts on the perioperative setting and the adjuvant/neoadjuvant setting, do you think there's any role for these inhibitors in the future? Dr. John Heymach: Yeah, this is a really exciting space right now. And so that makes this a really challenging question because of how quickly things are moving. I'll just briefly recap for everybody. Until recently, adjuvant therapy was just chemotherapy after you resected a lung cancer. That was it. And it provided about a 5% benefit in terms of five-year disease-free survival. Well, then we had adjuvant immunotherapy, like atezolizumab, approved, then we had neoadjuvant chemo plus immunotherapy approved; that's a CheckMate 816. And just recently, the AEGEAN study, which I'm involved with, was announced to be a positive study. That's neoadjuvant plus adjuvant chemo plus immunotherapy. So now, if you say, well, how are you going to bring a G12C inhibitor in there? Well, you can envision a few different ways; if you can combine with chemo and immunotherapy, you could bring it up front and bring it afterwards, or you could just tack it in on the back, either with immunotherapy or by itself, if you gave neoadjuvant chemo plus immunotherapy first, what we call the CheckMate 816 regimen. So, it could fit in a variety of ways. I'll just say neoadjuvant is more appealing because you can measure the response and see how well it's working, and we in fact have a neoadjuvant study going. But the long-term benefit may really come from keeping the drug going afterwards to suppress microscopic metastatic disease. And that's what I believe is going to happen. I think you're going to need to stay on these drugs for a long while to keep that microscopic disease down. Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Dr. Neel, any thoughts on novel agents in development beyond KRAS G12C inhibitors? Are there any agents or combinations that you'd be excited about? Dr. Benjamin Neel: Well, I think that the YAP/TAZ pathway inhibitors, the TEAD inhibitors in particular, are potentially promising. I mean, it seems as if the MAP kinase pathway and the GAPT pathway act in parallel. There's been multiple phases which suggest that YAP/TAZ reactivation can be a mechanism of sort of state-switching resistance. And so, I think those inhibitors are different than the standard PI3 kinase pathway inhibitor, PI3 kinase mTOR inhibitor, rapamycin. I also think as we've alluded to a couple of times, the jury's still out in the clinic, of course, but it'll be very exciting to see how this new set of RAS inhibitors works. The sort of Pan-RAS inhibitors, especially the ones that hit the GTP ON state. So, the G12C inhibitors and the initial preclinical G12D inhibitors that have been recorded, they all work by targeting the inactive state of RAS, the RAS-GDP state. And so, they can only work on mutants that cycle, at least somewhat, and they also don't seem to be as potent as targeting the GTP or active state of RAS. And so, at least the Rev meds compounds, which basically use cyclophilin, they basically adapt the mechanism that cyclosporine uses to inhibit calcineurin. They basically use the same kind of a strategy and build new drugs then that bind cyclophilin and present the drug in a way that can inhibit multiple forms of RAS. So, it'll be interesting to see if they are much more efficacious in a clinic as they appear to be in the lab, whether they can be tolerated. So, I think those are things to look out for. Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Dr. Heymach? Dr. John Heymach: Yeah, I agree with that. I'm excited to see that set of compounds coming along. One of the interesting observations is that when you inhibit one KRAS allele like G12C, you get these other KRAS alleles commonly popping up. And it's a little -- I just want to pause for a second to comment on this, because this is a little different than EGFR. If you inhibit a classic mutation, you don't get multiple other separate EGFR alleles popping up. You may get a secondary mutation in cyst on the same protein, but you don't get other alleles. So, this is a little different biology, but I think the frequency that we're seeing all these other KRAS alleles pop up tells us, I think we're going to need some pan-KRAS type strategy as a partner for targeting the primary driver. So for example, a G12C inhibitor plus a pan-KRAS strategy to head off these other alleles that can be popping up. So, I think that's going to be probably a minimum building block that you start putting other things around. And by partnering an allele-specific inhibitor where you might be able to inhibit it a little more potently and irreversibly with a pan-KRAS, you may solve some of these problems at the therapeutic window. You can imagine KRAS is so important for so many different cells in your body that if you potently inhibit all KRAS in your body, bad things are likely to happen somewhere. But if you can potently inhibit the mutant allele and then dampen the other KRAS signaling that's popping up, it's more hopeful. Dr. Benjamin Neel: There is a mouse model study from Mariano Barbacid's lab, which suggests that postnatal, KRAS at least, complete inhibition is doable. So, you could take out KRAS postnatally and the mice are okay. Whether that translates to human of course, is not at all clear. And you still have the other RAS alleles, the HRAS, the NRAS that you'd still have to contend with. Dr. John Heymach: Yeah, it's an interesting lesson. We've shied away from a lot of targets we thought weren't feasible. I did a lot of my training with Judah Folkman who pioneered targeting angiogenesis. And I remember hearing this idea of blocking new blood vessels. I said, "Well, everyone is just going to have a heart attack and die." And it turns out you can do it. You have to do it carefully, and in the right way but you can separate malignant or oncogenic signaling from normal signaling in an adult, pretty reasonably in a lot of cases where you don't think you could. Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: All right. So, Dr. Neel, and Dr. Heymach, any final closing comments on the field of RAS-targeted therapies, you know, what can we hope for? What can patients hope for, let's say five years from now, what are we looking at? Dr. John Heymach: Well, I'll give my thoughts I guess first, from a clinical perspective, I think we're already seeing the outlines of an absolute explosion in targeting KRAS over the next five years. And I think there's a really good likelihood that this is going to be the major place where we see progress, at least in lung cancer, over these next five years. It's an example of a problem that just seemed insolvable for so long, and here I really want to acknowledge the sustained support for clinical research and laboratory research focused around RAS. You know, the NCI had specific RAS initiatives and we've had big team grants for KRAS, and it shows you it's worth these large-scale efforts because you never know when that breakthrough is going to happen. But sometimes it just takes, you know, opening that door a little bit and everybody can start rushing through. Well, I think for KRAS, the door has been opened and everybody is rushing through at a frantic rate right now. So, it's really exciting, and stay tuned. I think the landscape of RAS-targeting is going to look completely different five years from now. Dr. Benjamin Neel: So, I agree that the landscape will definitely look different five years from now, because it's reflective of stuff that's been in process for the last five years. And it takes about that long to come through. I want to make two comments; one of which is to slightly disagree with my friend, John, about these big initiatives. And I would point out that this RAS breakthrough did not come from a big initiative, it came from one scientist thinking about a problem uniquely in a different way. We need a basic science breakthrough, it almost always comes from a single lab person, thinking about a problem, often in isolation, in his own group. What big initiatives can help with is engineering problems. Once you've opened the door, and you want to know what the best way is to get around the house, then maybe big initiatives help. But I do think that there's been too much focus on the big team initiative and not enough on the individual scientists who often promote the breakthrough. And then in terms of where I see the field going, what I'd really like to see, and I think in some pharmaceutical companies and biotechs, you're seeing this now, and also in academia, but maybe not enough, is that sort of breaking down of the silos between immunotherapy and targeting therapy. Because I agree with what John said, is that targeted therapy, is just sophisticated debulking. If we want to really make progress-- and on the other hand, immunotherapy people don't seem to, you know, often recognize that these oncogenic mutations in the tumor actually affect the immune system. So, I think what we need is a unification of these two semi-disparate areas of therapeutics in a more fulsome haul and that will advance things much quicker. Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Thank you both, Dr. Neel and Dr. Heymach, for sharing all your valuable insights with us today on the ASCO Daily News podcast. We really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Dr. John Heymach: Thanks for asking us. Dr. Benjamin Neel: It's been great having us. Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: And thank you all to our listeners, and thanks for joining us today. If you value our insights that you hear on the ASCO Daily News podcast, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe. Disclaimer: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy, should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. Follow today's speakers: Dr. Vamsi Velcheti @VamsiVelcheti Dr. Benjamin Neel @DrBenNeel Dr. John Heymach Want more related content? Listen to our podcast on novel therapies in lung cancer.    Advances in Lung Cancer at ASCO 2022 Follow ASCO on social media: @ASCO on Twitter ASCO on Facebook ASCO on LinkedIn Disclosures: Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Honoraria: Honoraria Consulting or Advisory Role: Bristol-Myers Squibb, Merck, Foundation Medicine, AstraZeneca/MedImmune, Novartis, Lilly, EMD Serono, GSK, Amgen Research Funding (Inst.): Genentech, Trovagene, Eisai, OncoPlex Diagnostics, Alkermes, NantOmics, Genoptix, Altor BioScience, Merck, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Atreca, Heat Biologics, Leap Therapeutics, RSIP Vision, GlaxoSmithKline Dr. Benjamin Neel: None disclosed Dr. John Heymach: None disclosed    

Guest host Dr. Vamsi Velcheti, of the NYU Langone Perlmutter Cancer Center, and Dr. Brian Henick, of the Columbia University Herbert Irving Comprehensive Cancer Center, discuss advances in KRAS-mutated lung cancer in the KRYSTAL-1 trial, and the association of ctDNA with overall survival in the NADIM trial, as well as other key advances in lung cancer presented at the 2022 ASCO Annual Meeting.   TRANSCRIPT   Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Hello, everyone! This is Dr. Vamsi Velcheti, I'm your guest host for the ASCO Daily News podcast, today. I'm an associate professor and medical director for the Thoracic Oncology Program at Perlmutter Cancer Center at NYU Langone Health. My guest today is Dr. Brian Henick, an associate director of the Experimental Therapeutics Program, and assistant professor of Medicine at Columbia University's Herbert Irving Comprehensive Cancer Center. We'll be discussing key abstracts in lung cancer that were featured at the 2022 ASCO Annual Meeting. Our full disclosures are available in the notes and disclosures of all guests on the podcast can be found on the transcripts at asco.org/podcasts. Brian, it's great to speak with you today. Dr. Brain Henick: Thank you so much, Vamsi, and ASCO Daily News for letting me join you to discuss these abstracts. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: So, let's dive in. So, it's an exciting ASCO Annual Meeting. And I hope you had a great time at the Meeting. So, let's start off with the LBA9009 and KRYSTAL-1 clinical trial. The study showed the activity of adagrasib in patients with KRAS-G12C mutant non-small cell lung cancer and active untreated brain mets. So, what is the key takeaway from this trial? Dr. Brain Henick: Well, Dr. Sabari presented some encouraging data on this important population. As we know, patients with active central nervous system (CNS) metastases represent a population of unmet medical need who are often excluded from clinical trials. So, it's a credit to the investigators for including this cohort. As Dr. Sabari noted, and as Dr. Goldberg emphasized in her discussion of the abstract, the measured CNS penetration of adagrasib compares favorably with other CNS active compounds from other settings. The overall response rate was 35%, with a disease control rate of 80%. But impressively, the median duration of intracranial response and progression-free survival (PFS) wasn't reached. This certainly seems to be a CNS active compound, and we'll need to see how sotorasib stacks up in their comparable cohort. Ideally, we'd have randomized data to prove superiority over the standard of care, but we may be a few steps away from that. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: So, Brian, in terms of CNS mets, how big of a problem is it in patients with KRAS G12C mutant lung cancers? Dr. Brian Henick: We know that CNS metastases are a big problem for G12C mutant lung cancer. The rates have been quoted as high as up to 42% of patients. And in particular, as you know, Vamsi, a lot of times trials often don't include, specifically, cohorts with active untreated brain metastases. And so, this is a very unique cohort in that sense. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: I just want to highlight that we really don't know the differential efficacy of sotorasib and adagrasib in the CNS met population because the trials were CodeBreak 100 and other trials and data readouts from sotorasib did not include patients with untreated brain mets. We did, however, [see] CNS progression-free survival data that go in line with sotorasib. So, it's really important to see that data from sotorasib. Dr. Brain Henick: I definitely look forward to seeing that. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: So, let's talk about Abstract 8501. The primary endpoint that was presented at ASCO [Annual Meeting] was the pathologic complete response to chemotherapy and nivo vs. chemotherapy as a new adjuvant treatment for resectable stage 3, a non-small cell lung cancer. This was the phase 2 NADIM trial. So, what do you think about this study? And what's your key takeaway from the study? Dr. Brain Henick: Dr. Provencio from Spain presented data from this randomized study as you said, of nivo plus carbo taxol compared to carbo taxol as neoadjuvant therapy for potentially resectable stage 3-A and B non-small cell lung cancer. So, I did want to compare this to the randomized data that we have from Checkmate 816, which interestingly allowed for earlier-stage disease as low as 1-B. And they also allowed for more flexibility in the choice of platinum doublet regimens. This study, NADIM 2, employs 2:1 versus 1:1 randomization, which we saw in Checkmate 816. Another important difference was that NADIM 2 required adjuvant nivolumab for 6 months in the study arm, whereas Checkmate 816 didn't include any immunotherapy in the adjuvant setting, but they allowed for a standard of care chemotherapy. In NADIM 2, the control arm didn't include any adjuvant therapy. In keeping with the impressive improvements over historical pathologic complete response rates of about 5%, this chemotherapy-IO regimen yielded a path complete response (CR) rate of 36.8%. It also showed a major pathological response, which again is defined as less than 10% viable tumor of 52.6%, and an overall response rate of 75.4%. So, it looks like there's a benefit that's happening upfront with the immunotherapy and chemotherapy as opposed to this just being an adjuvant phenomenon. This is also in keeping with data that we saw with Checkmate 816, as well as neoadjuvant atezo plus chemotherapy in the phase 2 study that was led by Catherine Shu and colleagues here at Columbia a few years ago. Overall, this is more encouraging data for the neoadjuvant use of immunotherapy. The earlier immunotherapy marches into the treatment course of patients with lung cancer, the greater the cost of toxicity. So, I think an important thing for us to focus on going forward is trying to develop strategies to better identify the patients that are most likely to benefit. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: So, Brian, I think from a practical standpoint, now that we have approval for neoadjuvant immunotherapy and adjuvant immunotherapy, we have some practical challenges in terms of how we manage our patients. Of course, the new adjuvant is very appealing because it's only 3 cycles of chemoimmunotherapy, but the challenge though, is a majority of the patients don't have a CR, or a significant proportion of the patients have an ongoing response or significant residual disease at the time of surgery. So, the question then would be what do you do after surgery if they're having an ongoing response? Do you think 3 cycles of immunotherapy are inadequate systemic therapy for these patients? Dr. Brian Henick: It's a really important question, Vamsi. I think until the data is mature, we're just kind of limited by the extent of what the data tells us so far, and then we have to kind of do our best as the treating doctor to navigate the patient's situation. So, tools that we'd still have available to us in the adjuvant setting that are approved are things like chemotherapy and radiation, leveraging things like circulating tumor DNA, I think maybe a promising path forward, as well to help guide strategies there, but I think until the data is mature, it has to be highly patient-focused to figure out what seems to be most appropriate there. How are you navigating those situations, Vamsi? Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Yeah, as you said, it is very challenging. I think we need more data. And of course, the challenge now is like, if you use immunotherapy in the new adjuvant setting, it's very likely you're not going to get insurance authorization for 1 year of adjuvant atezolizumab. So, we really need studies to optimize treatment paradigms here. As you suggested, maybe circulating tumor DNA (ctDNA)-based approaches to look at residual disease, I think, that would be one great way to do it. Let's move on to the next abstract, Brian. I found Abstract 9001 really interesting. It's a U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) pooled analysis that looked at outcomes of first-line immune checkpoint inhibitors, with or without chemotherapy based on the KRAS mutation status and PD-L1 expression. So, what is your take on this abstract and how do you think this is going to impact our practice? Dr. Brian Henick: So, Dr. Nakajima and colleagues explored the observation from individual trials that patients with KRAS-mutant lung cancer seem to have better responses than wild type with immunotherapy (IO) alone. But the favorability of these responses seems to be abrogated with chemotherapy-IO. We know that KRAS accounts for 25% of oncogene-driven non-small cell lung cancer predominantly at amino acid 12. And with the emergence of direct inhibitors of G12C, understanding the clinical features of these tumors may be critical to inform optimal integration of this new class of drugs and also to make sure that we've optimized treatment algorithms for KRAS patients in general. So, this study's authors at the FDA pulled data from 12 registrational clinical trials that were investigating first-line checkpoint inhibitor-containing regimens and they found no significant difference between KRAS wild type and mutant for overall survival regardless of the regimen used. The best outcomes were seen with chemoimmunotherapy regardless of KRAS status. This retrospective analysis does suggest that the notion of there being lesser benefit from chemoimmunotherapy from Dr. Gadgeel's study might not hold up in the overall population, but I think it raises important questions, like, are all KRAS mutations alike? The absence of KRAS mutation status for a majority of patients included in these studies limits the interpretation of the data. And also, the absence of commutation status makes it a little harder to interpret. And other important questions remain such as how G12C inhibitors will factor in? What were your thoughts, Vamsi? Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: No, I completely agree with you, Brian. I think we need more data and we know that commutation status is a very important aspect in terms of KRAS-directed therapies. And of course, with a lot of promising data from these KRAS inhibitors, there's an interest in moving these drugs into the front-line therapy for patients with KRAS mutations. But I think it's going to be quite challenging to incorporate them into the front-line therapies and we clearly will need better characterization of these patients with KRAS mutant [lung cancer] to further personalize treatment in the frontline setting for these patients. So, let's move on to the next abstract. This is the lung map study, Abstract 9004. This is a study sponsored by the National Cancer Institute (NCI), the lung map study, looking at overall survival from a phase 2 randomized study of ramucirumab and pembrolizumab, what's the standard of care in patients with advanced non—small cell lung cancer previously treated with immunotherapy. So, what were your key takeaway points here from this study? Dr. Brian Henick: So first of all, it's very exciting to see data from this very ambitious long map sub-study yield a positive result. Whereas many of the arms of this study were biomarker-guided, Dr. Reckamp presented the results from pembro plus ramucirumab as compared to the standard of care in unmarked patients with non-small cell lung cancer who had progressed after prior treatment with chemotherapy and immunotherapy. The data seems to suggest that pembro plus ramucirumab may be better tolerated than the standard of care chemo-containing regimens, as the experimental regimen had fewer serious adverse events. Pembro plus ramucirumab had a median overall survival of 14.6 months as compared to 11.6 months in the control arm and this was statistically significant. The PFS difference wasn't significant, but there was a late divergence in the curves. Dr. Bestvina nicely summarized some of the study's limitations such as the mixture of control regimens used, and there were really interesting signals that were found on subgroup analysis, such as benefit in those with mixed histology tumors, STK11 mutant tumors, and those who received chemotherapy prior to immunotherapy. The subgroups deserve further attention in the future. For now, this regimen may be an appealing option as an alternative to chemotherapy for the right patients. What do you think? Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Yeah, I agree, Brian. I think it's a really promising combination. We've always seen some synergy with VEGF inhibitors and immunotherapy in multiple studies and multiple tumor types. So, we really need to develop better ways to select patients for VEGF combination-based approaches in lung cancer. So, let's move on to another interesting study. This is Abstract 9000. This explores the outcomes of anti-PD-L1 therapy with or without chemotherapy for first-line, metastatic non-small cell lung cancer with a PD-L1 score of greater than 50%. So, this is an FDA pooled analysis. So, what were your key takeaways from this abstract? Dr. Brain Henick: I thought this question was really well suited for a large pooled retrospective analysis and our colleagues at the FDA didn't let us down here. The question really was what's the optimal approach for patients with non-small cell lung cancer with greater than 50% PD-L1 in view of the absence of direct comparisons between these arms in prospective studies? I thought one of the most striking findings from Dr. Akinboro's presentation was the dismally low rate of underrepresented minority patients that were included in these registration trials. As far as the findings for the patients who were studied, although the Kaplan-Meier curves for overall survival showed early separation, the difference wasn't statistically significant. Subgroup analysis revealed a trend towards better outcomes for immunotherapy alone among patients who are [age] 75 and above, suggesting that this may need to be parsed out as a unique population in subsequent studies. But in all, our equipoise as a field on whether to include chemoimmunotherapy-based first-line regimens should persist and should be guided, in my opinion, largely by clinical considerations. Can the patient tolerate chemotherapy? Do you need a rapid response? Are there other things that you thought in hearing all this, Vamsi? Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Yeah, absolutely. I think I am still struggling with the decision of whether to add chemotherapy for patients with greater than 50%. To a large extent, it's actually a clinical decision. In some patients who have a large disease burden, I tend to kind of opt for adding chemotherapy to immunotherapy in the front-line setting. But of course, we need more data here. And this is actually a very helpful piece of information from the FDA. And as you pointed out briefly, Brian, I think the fact that there are very few underrepresented patients in the pooled analysis, I think kind of speaks to the need for addressing increased diversity in clinical trial accruals. I think this is a great segue to also talk about Abstract 9012, talking about disparities in access to immunotherapy globally. This is a study from India looking at 15,000 patients who were checkpoint inhibitor eligible and who have very low rates of uptake of immunotherapy. This is something that reflects the global team of the ASCO Annual Meeting talking about disparities and improving access to treatments in underserved minority populations here in the United States, and also globally, in the developing world, the disparities in terms of access to care are humongous. So, what are your thoughts, Brian? And also, if you could highlight some of the work that you're doing at Columbia about disparities, I think that would be great. Dr. Brain Henick: Absolutely! I think access to medications is a really humbling topic for those of us who are involved in developmental therapeutics, particularly with the transformational impact we've seen with the advent of immunotherapy over the last decade-plus. Dr. Ravikrishna's presentation is therefore extremely important. He described very low rates of uptake of immunotherapy by indication. And perhaps most strikingly, the discrepancy in uptake by patients' ability to pay for therapy with the vast majority of immunotherapy received by those who are private is very concerning. Even if the definition of restricted access was permissive, for example, I didn't see mention of the cancer stage as an eligibility factor, the fact that this represents a single referral center's data doesn't bode well for uptake elsewhere. So, I think we need to continue to work as a field on prioritizing strategies to help overcome these gaps, but good quality data such as this study is an important first step. And to that point, Vamsi, I'm very excited to be working with you in collaboration on an observational study for patients with lung cancer from underserved minority populations with lung cancer in New York City so that we can better characterize access to care, efficacy, and toxicity in this population. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Thank you, Brian. I'd really like to thank you for sharing your valuable insights with us today on the ASCO Daily News Podcast. We really appreciate it. Brian, thank you so much for joining us. Dr. Brain Henick: My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: And thank you to all our listeners for joining in today. You will find links to all the abstracts discussed today in the transcript of this episode. Finally, if you value the insights that you hear on the ASCO Daily News Podcast, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you so much.     Disclosures: Dr. Vamsi Velcheti: Honoraria: Honoraria Consulting or Advisory Role: Bristol-Myers Squibb, Merck, Foundation Medicine, AstraZeneca/MedImmune, Novartis, Lilly, EMD Serono, GSK, Amgen Research Funding (Inst.): Genentech, Trovagene, Eisai, OncoPlex Diagnostics, Alkermes, NantOmics, Genoptix, Altor BioScience, Merck, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Atreca, Heat Biologics, Leap Therapeutics, RSIP Vision, GlaxoSmithKline Dr. Brain Henick: None disclosed. Disclaimer: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

Guest host Dr. Nathan Pennell, of the Cleveland Clinic Taussig Cancer Institute, and Dr. Vamsi Velcheti, of the NYU Langone Perlmutter Cancer Center, discuss the ATLANTIS trial and other novel therapies in advanced SCLC, NSCLC, and malignant pleural mesothelioma featured at the 2022 ASCO Annual Meeting Poster Sessions.  Transcript   Dr. Nathan Pennell: Hello, I'm Dr. Nathan Pennell, your guest host for the ASCO Daily News Podcast, today. I'm the co-director of the Cleveland Clinic Lung Cancer Program and vice-chair of Clinical Research for the Taussig Cancer Institute.  My guest today is my friend Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti, an associate professor and medical director of thoracic oncology at the Perlmutter Cancer Center at NYU Langone Health.  We'll be discussing key posters on lung cancer that will be featured at the 2022 ASCO Annual Meeting. Although the oral sessions tend to get the most press, we want to make sure you don't miss out on some high-impact abstracts that are presented in the poster session.  Our full disclosures are available in the show notes and disclosures of all guests on the podcast can be found on our transcripts at asco.orgpodcasts.  Vamsi, it's great to speak with you today.  Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Thank you, Nate. It's a pleasure to discuss these 5 outstanding abstracts.  Dr. Nathan Pennell: Why don't we start with Abstract 9021, “Genomic correlates of acquired resistance to PD-(L)1 blockade in patients with advanced non—small cell lung cancer (NSCLC).” Vamsi, what were your key takeaways from this study?  Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: This is an important study in my opinion. This was a very large study of 1,700 patients from Dana Farber and the investigators looked at 45 specimens and matched pre- and post- immunotherapy treated patients. And they looked at the data mechanisms of resistance that were identified in 25 out of the 45 patients, that is 55% of the patients.  5 patients had acquired STK11 mutations. One patient had a KEAP1 alteration. There were several patients who had like KEAP1 SMARCA4 mutations. And interestingly, there were also some patients who developed KRAS-G12C mutation as well on the post-treatment specimens.  So, this is an interesting abstract. We typically don't do biopsies on patients progressing on immunotherapy. At this point, we don't have a standard clinical indication to do so. However, identifying these new novel mechanisms of genomic mechanisms of resistance is actually very important, because a lot of new therapy medications are being developed to target, for example, KEAP1, and could be approached to target microglobulin mutations. So, it's very important to kind of understand the mechanisms of resistance.  Dr. Nathan Pennell: Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, most of the benefits in second line in the refractory setting with targeted treatments came about through studies like this where there was broad sequencing of resistance and trying to understand and I think we're still kind of in the infancy of understanding resistance to immunotherapy, but it's a good start.  Abstract 9019 was another interesting study in non—small cell lung cancer. That was “A phase II study of AK112 (PD-1/VEGF bispecific) in combination with chemotherapy in patients with advanced non—small cell lung cancer.” Can you tell us a little bit about that study?  Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Yeah, this is a multicenter phase-2 trial. This is an interesting agent. It's a PD-1/VEGF bispecific antibody developed by Akeso Bio. This is a single-arm study, and they did the study in 3 different cohorts.  One of the cohorts was patients with advanced non—small cell lung cancer who had wild-type EGFR/ALK, and they were treatment-naive. There was another cohort of patients where they enrolled patients with EGFR mutation who developed resistance to EGFR tyrosine kinase inhibitors (TKIs) and essentially progressed on osimertinib. And there was another cohort where patients were enrolled who were PD-1 refractory, they had prior PD-1or PD-1 chemo combination, and they had progressions. So, they enrolled a total of 133 patients, it was a decent-sized study, but a very early efficacy finding study.  In the cohort-1 which is the cohort that is enrolled with untreated patients with advanced non—small cell lung cancer. They had like 20 partial responses out of 26 patients that were evaluable and enrolled in the cohort, and there were 6 patients who had stable disease.  So, overall, the response rate was 76.9% and 100% disease control rate. So, this is a very small cohort and small data set. So, we have to interpret this with caution. But suddenly, a very interesting signal here for this VEGF/PD-1 bispecific antibody.  Dr. Nathan Pennell: The 40% response rate in the immunotherapy (IO) and chemo refractory patients, I thought was fairly interesting, although, as you said, very small numbers in these cohorts will have to be reproduced in larger trials.  Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Right. I think there was a lot of excitement early on the IMpower150, right? With the combination of bevacizumab with chemo-theralizumab.  There seems to be some signal in terms of the addition of a VEGF inhibitor to immunotherapy. And we've seen that consistently in renal cells and other tumor types. So, I think this is a really intriguing signal. I think this definitely warrants further exploration.  So, the other interesting thing was cohort-2 where they enrolled patients who had progressed on EGFR TKIs. So, in that cohort, they had like 19 evaluable patients and 13 patients had a partial response and 5 had stable disease. So, a very respectable response rate of 68.4% and 94.7 disease control rate. So, again, very small numbers, but a nice signal here for the efficacy of the drug.  There was another cohort, which is the cohort-3 where they enrolled patients who progressed on PD-1 therapy, and they enrolled a total of 20 patients with 8 patients having a partial response, following progression on PD-1 therapy.  Dr. Nathan Pennell: Yeah, I look forward to seeing further follow-up on this. It definitely sounds interesting. Moving on to Abstract 8541. This was “Durvalumab (durva) after chemoradiotherapy (CRT) in unresectable, stage III, EGFR mutation-positive (EGFRm) NSCLC: A post hoc subgroup analysis from PACIFIC,' which of course was the study that led to the broad use of durvalumab, the anti-PD-L1 antibody after chemoradiotherapy for unresectable stage III non-small cell, but this was the post hoc subgroup analysis of the EGFR mutation-positive group. And this is a subgroup we've really been curious about whether there was a role for consolidation, immunotherapy, or not. And so, what are your thoughts on the study?  Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: I agree with you, Nate, that this is actually some data that I was really, really looking forward to. Before we actually talk about the abstract. What do you do for those patients? If you have an EGFR mutation patient who has stage IIIB, what do you do right now?  Dr. Nathan Pennell: It's a great question. I have a discussion with them about the potential pluses and minuses of doing consolidation durvalumab. But I actually don't always use durvalumab in this setting, because of concerns about if you're using durvalumab and they recur, perhaps there is a problem with toxicity with using osimertinib. Honestly, I go back and forth about what the right thing is to do in this subgroup.  Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: No, I think that's the right context. I think that's a good setup to kind of discuss the data from the trial. I'm really excited about this. And I'm glad that we have this data to look at.  So, as you pointed out, the Pacific trial, its U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval for durvalumab in the consolidation setting for patients with stage III after chemoradiation. This has now been the standard of care for like a few years now. The problem with the study is that patients with EGFR/ALK were allowed to enroll in the study.  Typically, for most IO trials, we generally tend to see patients with EGFR/ALK being excluded. So, this trial was an exception. In this study, they actually presented a post-hoc exploratory analysis of efficacy and safety of patients who did consolidation with durvalumab, but there was a total of 35 patients of the 713 patients that were randomized in the trial. And out of the 35 patients with EGFR mutation, 24 received durvalumab and 11 received a placebo.  So, of course, you're going to interpret this data with a little bit of caution. This is a full stock analysis, not pre-planned in small numbers. In this dataset, essentially, the median progression-free survival (PFS) was not different among patients treated with durvalumab or placebo, and the median survival was also not statistically significant. Overall, there was not much benefit from adding durvalumab in this setting in patients who have EGFR mutation-positive stage III lung cancer.  Dr. Nathan Pennell: I think that tends to track along with what we who have been treating patients with EGFR mutations for years, and knowing the disappointing response rates, certainly in the advanced stage with immunotherapy, I think we were concerned that in this consolidation phase that it would also potentially be a relatively marginal benefit. I agree with you that 35 patients are too small to make any definitive conclusions, but it certainly isn't supportive of a large benefit.  Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: But I think I'm excited about the LAUREL study that's ongoing, hopefully, that'll give us a little bit more definitive answers as to what we should be doing for patients with EGFR mutation-positive disease. Suddenly this is a piece of information that's helpful for treating physicians to make some decisions on clinical management for these patients.  Dr. Nathan Pennell: I agree. Now moving beyond the non—small cell. Let's talk about “Final survival outcomes and immune biomarker analysis of a randomized, open-label, phase I/II study combining oncolytic adenovirus ONCOS-102 with pemetrexed/cisplatin (P/C) in patients with unresectable malignant pleural mesothelioma (MPM).” That's Abstract 8561. What were your takeaways here?  Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Yeah, it's always good to see some new therapeutic options for patients with mesothelioma. This is somewhat of an orphan disease and we haven't seen a lot of advances. Granted, we have some new therapeutic options with immunotherapy now, like, there is now a standard of care in the frontline setting.  So, this particular approach with ONCOS-102 is an oncolytic adenovirus expressing GM-CSF. And this is intended to stimulate the local and systemic immune response and remodulate the tumor microenvironment.  This was a small phase 1 study where they had a CFT run-in of 6 patients and a total of 25 patients were randomly assigned to receive ONCOS-102 intratumorally with ultrasound guidance or CT guidance and they injected this oncolytic virus into the tumor directly.  They were also getting treatment with platinum pemetrexed which is the standard of care in the frontline setting. The control here was 6 cycles of platinum pemetrexed. So, they enrolled both the treatment-naive patients in the frontline setting and they also enrolled patients who will progress on a platinum doublet.  I should note that none of these patients were treated with immunotherapy. I think that's something that we'll kind of get back to and we'll discuss. Overall, from a safety standpoint, there were some expected toxicities like pyrexia and nausea which is seen in the experimental group. It's just kind of to be expected with an oncolytic virus. Overall, the 30-month survival rates were 34.3% and 18.2% in the control arm, and the median overall survival (OS) was 19.3 months and 18.3 in the controller.  So, for patients who were treated with the frontline chemotherapy, the survival rate was better with 30 months survival, it was 33.3 [months]. And in the experimental group, it was 0%.  So, overall, they also looked at tumor-infiltrating lymphocytes, they had CD4 around CD8 and granzyme B expressing CDA T-cells, and they had favorable PK from increased immune cell infiltration. So, this is very promising data but of course in a small study, and also in a population that hasn't had immunotherapy patients who are getting platinum doublet. In terms of safety, I think it looks promising. We need to see larger studies, especially with immunotherapy combinations.  Dr. Nathan Pennell: Yeah, I was impressed with the increased tumor infiltration of CD4 and CDA-positive T-cells, and the survival in the first line looked fairly impressive, although again, a very small subgroup of patients. But as you said, a standard of care these days is definitely going to involve immunotherapy. And so, I look forward to seeing combination trials in the future with this drug.  Shifting from mesothelioma over to small cell lung cancer, Abstract 8570 is “Stereotactic radiosurgery (SRS) versus whole brain radiation therapy (WBRT) in patients with small cell lung cancer (SCLC) and intracranial metastatic disease (IMD): A systematic review and meta-analysis.” Do you think that this would influence how we approach patients with brain metastases in the small cell?  Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: There are some in the community who kind of advocate for SRS in small cells if they have limited CNS disease. Certainly, I'm not one of them, but I think this is an interesting study in that light like we have never had any proper randomized trial. And we probably won't have randomized trials in that setting. So, at the end of the day, I think we all kind of customize our treatment approaches based on our patients and how much disease burden they have.  But having said that, the authors here have done a pretty large systemic analysis, and they looked at 3,700+ trials, they looked at random effects meta-analysis pooled hazard ratios for overall survival in patients who received SRS in the whole brain with or without SRS boost.  What they found was that overall survival following SRS was not inferior to whole brain RT. What do we really make out of this data? I think, given the heterogeneity, we have to see how the analysis was done and the kind of studies that went into the analysis. But however, I think the bigger question is, is there a population that we need to maybe—perhaps like, if somebody has an isolated brain met, you could potentially consider SRS with a whole brain RT for better local control.  So, the authors actually look at pooled data to look at local control versus intracranial distant control. So, this is a really interesting approach that asks the question, if patients had SRS and whole brain radiation, would it actually offer adequate intracranial distant control meaning like, do they develop new lesions?  So, it does look fairly decent. But again, it all depends on what kind of studies went into the analysis. And I don't think we should read too much into it. But at the same time, it kind of raises the question: is there a population of patients with small cell where it may be potentially appropriate to give SRS?  So, that's what I do in my day-to-day clinical practice. Sometimes there are situations where you kind of do the thing that we don't usually always do like in the small cell, we always think about whole brain radiation as something that we always have to offer, but I want to hear your perspectives too.  Dr. Nathan Pennell: No, I was always taught that you never did anything with whole brain radiation in the small cell even with a solitary metastasis. For a study like this, it's certainly interesting. You wonder how much selection bias there was towards people with fewer brain metastases and perhaps being in better health or better response to systemic disease that were referred for SRS, compared to whole brain radiation.  Part of the issue is the morbidity associated with whole brain radiation is significantly more than with SRS. And now that we are starting to, for the first time, see some patients with small cell [lung cancer] that are living substantially longer with immunotherapy, it might be worth exploring which patients might benefit from having that lower morbidity from whole brain radiation. But I agree with you that I'm not sure that we know who those patients are.  Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Yeah, I think this is a difficult question to answer through a meta-analysis in my opinion. But having said that, your thought in terms of proving systemic therapies, then we kind of revisit the paradigm of offering SRS to some patients may be, especially with new BiTE T-cell engager studies that are ongoing, and hopefully, if you see some positive results, that might change what we do, but it's an important clinical question.  Dr. Nathan Pennell: And finally, in Abstract 8524, we have an interesting analysis of patients with relapsed small cell lung cancer, who received single-agent Lurbinectedin in the phase-3 Atlantis trial. What do you think about this poster, and why should this be on our radar?  Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Yeah, I think this has been an interesting approval, of course, lurbinectedin FDA approved, as you know, like in June of 2020, based on data from a trial that uses 3.2 milligrams per meter square dosing every 21 days in second line setting post-chemotherapy.  What happened after that was there was a trial with the combination with doxorubicin in the second line setting comparative arm in that phase 3 trial topotecan or CAV.  In that trial, it was a negative trial, the primary endpoint was not met. The primary endpoint was overall survival, and it was a negative trial. And there were subgroup analyses done in the trial. The study that is presented now is actually a post-hoc analysis looking at patients who received treatment with this combination with doxorubicin that is like a lurbinectedin with doxorubicin, who had like a total of 10 cycles of the combination, and they switched to lurbinectedin monotherapy.  So, there were a total of 50 patients in that trial. They looked at the responses and the durability of responses in that population. It's a highly select population that made it to 10 cycles and they had stable disease or better and they switched to lurbinectedin monotherapy.  So, the highlight of the abstract is the median overall survival was 20.7 months. Of course, for small cell, that's really impressive. But I think we've got to be really careful in interpreting this data. This is like a small subgroup of highly selected patients who actually benefited from the trial. My question for you, Nate, is do you use lurbinectedin in the second line setting frequently or are you still treating them with topotecan?  Dr. Nathan Pannell: We still often use topotecan. I think lurbinectedin certainly seems to be an active drug, and it has some favorable schedule of administration pretty well tolerated from a tolerability standpoint, but from an efficacy standpoint, I still haven't really seen much that makes it stand out as significantly better than older options like topotecan or irinotecan.  That being said, it is intriguing that there is a subgroup of people who seem to have prolonged disease control with this. The problem, of course, is if you already select the people who make it 10 cycles without progression, then you're already picking the group of people who are doing extremely well. So, it's not surprising that they would continue to do extremely well.  Nonetheless, it's a sizable subgroup of people that seem to benefit and it would really be nice if there was, for example, a biomarker that might tell us which patients would truly benefit from this drug compared to our other options.  Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Yeah, exactly. True. Right, I mean, like all of us have patients who have done exceedingly well on topotecan and I had a patient on paclitaxel for years. So, it's really important to kind of keep that in mind when we look at these sub-proof post hoc analyses.  Dr. Nathan Pennell: Well, thanks Vamsi for sharing these important advances in lung cancer that will be featured at the 2022 ASCO Annual Meeting.  Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti: Thank you, Nate.  Dr. Nathan Pennell: And thank you to our listeners for joining us today. If you're enjoying the content on the ASCO Daily News podcast, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.    Disclosures:  Dr. Nathan Pennell:   Consulting or Advisory Role: AstraZeneca, Lilly, Cota Healthcare, Merck, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Genentech, Amgen, G1 Therapeutics, Pfizer, Boehringer Ingelheim, Viosera, Xencor, Mirati Therapeutics, Janssen Oncology, Sanofi/Regeneron  Research Funding (Inst): Genentech, AstraZeneca, Merck, Loxo, Altor BioScience, Spectrum Pharmaceuticals, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Jounce Therapeutics, Mirati Therapeutics, Heat Biologics, WindMIL, Sanofi  Dr. Vamsidhar Velcheti:  Honoraria: ITeos Therapeutics  Consulting or Advisory Role: Bristol-Myers Squibb, Merck, Foundation Medicine , AstraZeneca/MedImmune, Novartis, Lilly, EMD Serono, GSK, Amgen  Research Funding (Institution): Genentech, Trovagene, Eisai, OncoPlex Diagnostics, Alkermes, NantOmics, Genoptix, Altor BioScience, Merck, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Atreca, Heat Biologics, Leap Therapeutics, RSIP Vision, GlaxoSmithKline  Disclaimer: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions.  Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.   

Devon Campbell is the founder and Managing Director of Prodct LLC. Prodct is a Boston-based, boutique advisory firm focused on helping emerging entrepreneurs and early-stage biotech, medical device, diagnostic, and therapeutic companies create and execute expedited product development, manufacturing, quality, regulatory, and commercialization strategies. Before Prodct, Devon led product development and engineering at several successful medical device and diagnostic companies over the last 21+ years including Quanterix ($74M IPO in 2017), Novartis Companion Diagnostics (acquired Genoptix for $740M in 2011 + Vivacta for $90M in 2012), and Ventana Medical Systems ($3.4B acquisition by Roche in 2008). Devon serves as an advisor or board member for several start-ups and organizations, most recently including MasksOn.org, a non-profit designing and donating high-quality PPE to healthcare professionals working selflessly to care for COVID-19 patients. He can also be found at his personal website https://www.devonccampbell.com or Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/devonccampbell/ . Pipeline Design & Engineering partners with medical device engineering teams who need turnkey equipment such as cycle test machines, custom test fixtures, or automation equipment but don’t have the bandwidth or resources internally to develop that equipment. You can find us on the web at www.testfixturedesign.com and www.designtheproduct.com.

Robert MacPhee is the Founder and President of Heart Set, Inc. in Sonoma California.  He works with individuals and organizations that desire or face significant changes, helping them improve their productivity, satisfaction and profitability.   Robert is the author of the book and partner journal “Manifesting for Non-Gurus, How to Quickly and Easily Attract Lasting Results”.  He is the former Director of Training for the Canfield Training Group, where he worked closely with Jack Canfield, the co-creator of the Chicken Soup for the Soul Book series and the author of The Success Principles, How to Get from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be.  He is a Founding Member and former Executive Director of the Transformational Leadership Council and a co-founder of the Southern California Association of Transformational Leaders.   Robert is a graduate of the University of California, San Diego with a degree in Economics.  His work experience includes several successful entrepreneurial ventures and a variety of leadership and management positions with large companies.  For example, Robert and his partner started a parking business directly out of college that quickly grew to over 400 employees and four million dollars in revenue.   His current company, Heart Set, Inc., provides speaking, coaching and consulting services to individuals and businesses.  He is the creator of the Excellent Decisions leadership development program. The focus of Robert’s work is helping leaders create the results AND the experience of life they really want in a world of constant change. He does this by facilitating highly interactive workshops and hands on follow up, all based on the learning and application of fundamental principles.     Robert is a knowledgeable, fun and engaging speaker.  He is an expert in experiential learning, peak performance and leadership.  He has spoken at colleges and universities, industry trade shows, government conferences and individual company events and trainings.  His clients include Qualcomm, Google, Cibus, Coldwell Banker, Denny’s, Jack in the Box, Dartmouth College, UCSD, Gen-Probe, Keller Williams, Genoptix, and more.  Robert’s emphasis is always on identifying desired results, and then helping his clients attract those results more quickly and easily, and in ways that ensure the changes will last.   https://thomsinger.com/podcast/robert-macphee

Robert MacPhee  Robert MacPhee is the Founder and President of Heart Set, Inc. in Sonoma California. He works with individuals and organizations that desire or face significant changes, helping them improve their productivity, satisfaction and profitability. Robert is the author of the book and partner journal “Manifesting for Non-Gurus, How to Quickly and Easily Attract Lasting Results”. He is the former Director of Training for the Canfield Training Group, where he worked closely with Jack Canfield, the co-creator of the Chicken Soup for the Soul Book series and the author of The Success Principles, How to Get from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be. He is a Founding Member and former Executive Director of the Transformational Leadership Council and a co-founder of the Southern California Association of Transformational Leaders. Robert is a graduate of the University of California, San Diego with a degree in Economics. His work experience includes several successful entrepreneurial ventures and a variety of leadership and management positions with large companies. For example, Robert and his partner started a parking business directly out of college that quickly grew to over 400 employees and four million dollars in revenue. His current company, Heart Set, Inc., provides speaking, coaching and consulting services to individuals and businesses. He is the creator of the Excellent Decisions leadership development program. The focus of Robert’s work is helping leaders create the results AND the experience of life they really want in a world of constant change. He does this by facilitating highly interactive workshops and hands on follow up, all based on the learning and application of fundamental principles. Robert is a knowledgeable, fun and engaging speaker. He is an expert in experiential learning, peak performance and leadership. He has spoken at colleges and universities, industry trade shows, government conferences and individual company events and trainings. His clients include Qualcomm, Google, Cibus, Coldwell Banker, Denny’s, Jack in the Box, Dartmouth College, UCSD, Gen-Probe, Keller Williams, Genoptix, and more. Robert’s emphasis is always on identifying desired results, and then helping his clients attract those results more quickly and easily, and in ways that ensure the changes will last. excellentdecisions.com Listen to another #12minconvo

Tina Nova, President and CEO of Molecular Stethoscope, Inc, wows an auditorium full of high school girls with stories of leaving her small town as a teenager for a life in science, entrepreneurship, and betting big on the future. Spoiler Alert: She succeeded! Nova was the keynote presentation for “Women in Biotech,” sponsored by the STEAM Leadership Series. Series: "STEAM: Adding Arts to STEM Education" [Public Affairs] [Science] [Show ID: 30464]

Tina Nova, President and CEO of Molecular Stethoscope, Inc, wows an auditorium full of high school girls with stories of leaving her small town as a teenager for a life in science, entrepreneurship, and betting big on the future. Spoiler Alert: She succeeded! Nova was the keynote presentation for “Women in Biotech,” sponsored by the STEAM Leadership Series. Series: "STEAM: Adding Arts to STEM Education" [Public Affairs] [Science] [Show ID: 30464]

Tina Nova, President and CEO of Molecular Stethoscope, Inc, wows an auditorium full of high school girls with stories of leaving her small town as a teenager for a life in science, entrepreneurship, and betting big on the future. Spoiler Alert: She succeeded! Nova was the keynote presentation for “Women in Biotech,” sponsored by the STEAM Leadership Series. Series: "STEAM Channel" [Public Affairs] [Science] [Show ID: 30464]

Tina Nova, President and CEO of Molecular Stethoscope, Inc, wows an auditorium full of high school girls with stories of leaving her small town as a teenager for a life in science, entrepreneurship, and betting big on the future. Spoiler Alert: She succeeded! Nova was the keynote presentation for “Women in Biotech,” sponsored by the STEAM Leadership Series. Series: "STEAM Channel" [Public Affairs] [Science] [Show ID: 30464]

Tina Nova, President and CEO of Molecular Stethoscope, Inc, wows an auditorium full of high school girls with stories of leaving her small town as a teenager for a life in science, entrepreneurship, and betting big on the future. Spoiler Alert: She succeeded! Nova was the keynote presentation for “Women in Biotech,” sponsored by the STEAM Leadership Series. Series: "STEAM Channel" [Public Affairs] [Science] [Show ID: 30464]

Tina Nova, President and CEO of Molecular Stethoscope, Inc, wows an auditorium full of high school girls with stories of leaving her small town as a teenager for a life in science, entrepreneurship, and betting big on the future. Spoiler Alert: She succeeded! Nova was the keynote presentation for “Women in Biotech,” sponsored by the STEAM Leadership Series. Series: "STEAM: Adding Arts to STEM Education" [Public Affairs] [Science] [Show ID: 30464]

Tina Nova, President and CEO of Molecular Stethoscope, Inc, wows an auditorium full of high school girls with stories of leaving her small town as a teenager for a life in science, entrepreneurship, and betting big on the future. Spoiler Alert: She succeeded! Nova was the keynote presentation for “Women in Biotech,” sponsored by the STEAM Leadership Series. Series: "STEAM Channel" [Public Affairs] [Science] [Show ID: 30464]

Biotechnology executive and entrepreneur Tina Nova, a 1982 doctoral graduate from UCR, addresses the 13th Annual Southern California Conference on Undergraduate Research. Nova is the chief executive officer of Genoptix, Inc., the fourth biotechnology firm she has co-founded in the San Diego area. [Humanities] [Business] [Show ID: 11365]