Welcome to ESG Talks, a KBRA Podcast series focusing on environmental, social, and governance (ESG). This podcast will highlight various ESG hot topics and will include commentary from prominent voices within the ESG community. As we continue to expand gl
In this episode of ESG Talks Emilie Nadler, a Director on KBRA's ESG team interviews, Gordon Kerr. Gordon gives an overview of climate-related developments during COP27. The 27th annual conference of the parties, COP 27, concluded on Friday, November 18. This year's event, held in Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt, took place as many global challenges continue to unfold and become more severe including the Russia-Ukraine war, rising inflation, and fears over energy security. Gordon and Emilie talk about key takeaways from the proceedings including the tense discussions around international climate finance, icy relations between China and the U.S., and the fossil fuel interests present at COP27.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Emilie Nadler, a Director on KBRA's ESG team, interviews Bill Shevlin, CEO of Net Zero Beyond. Net Zero Beyond is a platform that develops, finances, owns, and operates carbon neutral and carbon negative microgrids, and virtual power plants across the United States. The technologies Net Zero uses include energy storage, solar, wind, waste to energy, biodigesters, hydrogen, energy management software, fuel cells, electric vehicle chargers, hydrogen production, IoT devices and more. Net Zero serves residential and commercial markets as well as industrial, manufacturing, controlled environmental agriculture, and government markets.
In this special episode of ESG Talks, KBRA's Chief ESG and Ratings Policy Officer, Pat Welch, and KBRA's Chief Strategist, Van Hesser, speak on all things ESG and give an overview on current trends in credit markets on the Bermuda Royal Gazette (RG) Business Podcast with Shivani Seth. RG Business is a podcast that examines global business in Bermuda, the industries and sectors that lead its economy, and the impact it has globally. KBRA recently hosted an ESG and Credit Market Lunch in Bermuda on Oct. 12 where similar topics were covered.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Karen Daly, Senior Managing Director and head of KBRA's Public Finance Team interviews Lia Cairone, the first Director of Sustainability & Resiliency at the NYC Mayor's Office of Management and Budget, and Louise Yeung, the first Chief Climate Officer to serve at the City's Office of the Comptroller. Karen, Lia, and Louise discuss the risks that climate change poses to NYC and how city agencies are working to mitigate the City's climate risk exposure while investing in sustainability, resiliency, and adaptation measures.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Peter Giacone, Senior Managing Director and head of KBRA's Insurance team interviews Dr. Ryan Truchelut, Co-founder, President, and Chief Meteorologist of WeatherTiger. WeatherTiger provides customized seasonal weather forecasts and full-spectrum decision support for commodity, weather risk, public safety, and retail markets with a proprietary technology fusing meteorological insights and the power of Big Data. In Ryan's eleven years as a lead professional meteorologist, he has provided mission-critical forecast guidance and consulting to satisfied clients across the full spectrum of agricultural markets, including producers, processors, end-users, and traders. Ryan's comprehensive knowledge of client needs and deep background in mid- and long-range forecasting, quantification of extreme event risk, and innovative product development are at the forefront of the field and inform every WeatherTiger forecast.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Karen Daly, Senior Managing Director and head of KBRA's Public Finance Team interviews Kim Bizor Tolbert, Deputy City Manager of Dallas and Liz Cedillo-Pereira, Assistant City Manager. Kim provides executive leadership to the Office of Risk Management, Aviation, Dallas Water Utilities, Human Resources, Communications, Outreach, & Marketing, Office of Homeless Solutions, and the Small Business Center. As Assistant City Manager, Liz provides executive leadership to the Dallas Public Library, Office of Arts & Culture, Office of Community Care, Office of Environmental Quality & Sustainability, Office of Equity & Inclusion, and Ethics. Karen, Kim, and Liz discuss city initiatives aimed at improving equity and inclusion for Dallas' diverse population.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Jim Nadler, KBRA's President and CEO interviews economist, Rob Johnson. Rob is the Co-founder and President of the Institute for New Economic Thinking (INET). Founded in the wake of the financial crisis in 2009, INET is a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization devoted to developing and sharing the ideas that can repair our broken economy and create a more equal, prosperous, and just society. To meet current and future challenges, INET conducts and commissions research, convenes forums for exchanging ideas, develops curricula, and nurtures a global community of young scholars. Jim and Rob discuss how the work and research that INET does overlaps with ESG issues.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Joan Feldbaum-Vidra, Senior Managing Director and Head of KBRA's Sovereigns ratings team, sits down with Mike Spence, an internationally recognized economist focused on economic growth and development, dynamic competition, and the economics of information. In 2001, Mike was awarded the Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences for his tremendous contributions to the analysis of markets with asymmetric information and the field of economics in general. Joan and Mike discuss the economics of the energy transition and the implications for global economic growth.
In this special episode of ESG Talks, Jim Nadler, KBRA's CEO and President, and Kate Kennedy, Senior Managing Director and Co-Head of KBRA's Business Development Group discuss the importance of ESG on the Royal Gazette (RG) Business Podcast with Shivani Seth. RG Business is a podcast that examines global business in Bermuda, the industries and sectors that lead its economy, and the impact it has globally. In this episode of the Navigate Series, learn about how KBRA has changed the landscape of rating analysis and the firm's comprehensive strategy for ESG.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Karen Daly, the head of KBRA's Public Finance team, interviews Dr. Stanislav Shmelev, an ecological economist and Director of Environment Europe. Environment Europe is a think tank and research center focused on macroeconomic sustainability, sustainable cities, renewable energy, ecosystems and biodiversity and sustainable waste management. Dr. Shmelev has experience in teaching, research, consultancy and international project management through work with prominent universities, international organizations and businesses. The main areas of his specialization include ecological economics, economics of the European Union, financial management, sustainability assessment, multi-criteria decision aid, ecological-economic modelling at international, national and regional levels, sustainable urban and regional development, issues of environmental policy in sustainable energy and waste management.
In the first episode of season 5 of ESG Talks, Pat Welch, KBRA's Chief ESG and Ratings Policy Officer interviews Bill Curry, president and CEO of the Bermuda Institute of Ocean Sciences (BIOS), Peter Schlosser, Vice President and Vice Provost of Julie Ann Wrigley Global Futures Laboratory at Arizona State University (ASU), and Kenro Kusumi, Dean of Natural Sciences at ASU. In October 2021, BIOS and ASU announced a strategic partnership to elevate awareness around the critical role that the ocean plays in climate mitigation. Pat, Bill, Peter, and Kenro discuss the research that BIOS and ASU do to explore the world's oceans and address the global and environmental challenges we face as climate change grows more extreme. The group also discusses highlights of the Bermuda Climate Summit hosted by the Bermuda Development Agency and sponsored by KBRA.
In the final episode of season 4 of ESG Talks, Emilie Nadler, an Associate Director on KBRA's ESG team interviews Mike Brotschol, Managing Director at KBRA Analytics and Co-Head of KBRA Credit Profile (KCP), a subscription based CMBS surveillance platform. Mike's team recently enhanced the KCP product offering with various environmental and social metrics on commercial real estate properties. Mike and Emilie highlight investor interest in ESG data and how KCP is aiding in the investment decision making process.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Andrea Torres Villanueva, an Associate on KBRA's ESG team speaks with Bill Cox, Global Head of Corporate, Financial and Government Ratings, and Andrew Giudici, Global Head of Corporate, Project, and Infrastructure Finance. Bill and Andrew highlight findings from a recent KBRA research publication, “It Is Time to Measure the Real Impact of a Carbon Tax,” that details how corporations use internal carbon pricing, the challenges with carbon prices, and how regulatory efforts to reduce global emissions may impact a corporation's financial performance.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Gordon Kerr, KBRA's Head of European Research interviews Ken Egan, an Associate Director on KBRA's Sovereigns team. Gordon and Ken give an overview of the European Union's net-zero plans and delve into how the EU's climate mitigation strategy may impact the credit profile of sovereigns in the region. They also discuss a recent Centre for European Reform research piece, highlighting the need for the EU to remove tariffs on environmental goods.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Joan Feldbaum-Vidra, Head of KBRA's Sovereigns group interviews Representative Jake Auchincloss. Rep. Auchincloss is a Democrat from Massachusetts' 4th congressional district and is currently serving his first term in Congress. He is the Vice-Chair of the House Financial Services Committee and a member of the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee. His areas of focus include infrastructure, housing, the life sciences, and energy policy. Joan and Congressman Auchincloss discuss the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act that was passed in November and talk about the future of the Build Back Better plan.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Karen Daly, a Senior Managing Director on KBRA's Public Finance Team interviews Gavin Taves, the Climate and Energy Program Manager for the City of Chicago. In his role, Gavin focuses on built environment decarbonization policy for Mayor Lightfoot, program managing Retrofit Chicago (a voluntary building retrofit challenge) and the City's benchmarking ordinance. Gavin also spearheads the industrial decarbonization strategy, which aims to bring industrial facilities into alignment with broader climate goals for the region. Further, Gavin is one of the architects of Chicago's historic $188 million climate investment strategy, which will accelerate the City's just transition while building community resilience to climate shocks and stressors. Karen and Gavin talk about Chicago's vulnerability to climate change and how the city is working to mitigate its effects.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Emilie Nadler, an Associate Director on KBRA's ESG team interviews Kim Kovacs, the newly appointed CEO of Santa Fe Farms. Santa Fe Farms is a fully integrated company leading the growth and development of the industrial hemp industry. Kim and Emilie discuss highlights from COP26 regarding climate mitigating technology and innovation and the role emerging industries, such as the industrial hemp industry, will play in the low carbon transition.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Andrea Torres Villanueva, an Associate on KBRA's ESG Team interviews Gordon Kerr, Managing Director and KBRA's Head of European Research. Gordon was in Glasgow, Scotland for the 26th Session of the Conference of the Parties (COP26) and discusses with Andrea key takeaways from this year's event.
In the last episode of the third season of ESG Talks, Emilie Nadler, an Associate Director on KBRA's ESG Team, interviews Pat Welch, KBRA's Chief ESG and Ratings Policy Officer, and Van Hesser, KBRA's Chief Strategist. As interest in ESG investing grows, financial market participants are increasingly interested in accessing better quality ESG information to make investment decisions and are also looking to rating agencies to understand the relevance of ESG to financial metrics and the risk of default. Pat, Van, and Emilie discuss KBRA's approach to ESG integration in credit ratings and research.“At KBRA, we believe most ESG issues that intersect with credit risk analysis are inherently management issues. For this reason we call our ESG approach in the corporates, financial institutions, and governments space ‘ESG Management.' In the world of credit risk analysis ESG can't be done as a simple scoring exercise – it requires thoughtful analysis of myriad, and often interconnected risk management issues. Our approach gives transparency into the real-world and into the dynamic risks that ESG presents to entities.” – Pat Welch, KBRA's Chief ESG and Ratings Policy Officer
In this episode of ESG Talks, Steve Weinstein, Chair of the Bermuda Business Development Authority, moderates a conversation between Jim Nadler, KBRA's President and CEO, and Bermuda's Minister of Finance, the Honorable Curtis L. Dickinson, JP, MP. Bermuda has a proven track record in balancing the needs of the business community with prudent policy under a unified regulatory system. Steve, Jim, and Minister Dickinson discuss the rise in ESG investing and how Bermuda's culture of innovation has well positioned the country as the world's center for climate risk finance.“A commitment to sound and effective regulation, policies, and practices that promote good, ethical, and innovative businesses, and an appropriate partnership with industry to advance initiatives that can be mutually beneficial and [promote] the greater good, is a role the government sees as being very critical. Bermuda aims to become the world's climate risk finance capital by addressing critical needs in key markets and closing the global protection gap, while creating new economic growth opportunities. It is our view that the climate risk finance space is an extension of what [Bermuda] already does very well.” - Bermuda Minister of Finance, the Honorable Curtis L. Dickinson
In this episode of ESG Talks, Pat Welch, KBRA's Chief ESG and Ratings Policy Officer, interviews Steven Gluckstern, the Chairman and CEO of Santa Fe Farms. Santa Fe Farms is a fully integrated company leading the growth and development of the industrial hemp industry. The company Santa Fe Farms spans the growth, transformation, and impact of industrial hemp into key wellness, chemical and physical ingredients and components which can be incorporated into thousands of products in categories including health, human and animal nutrition, agriculture, building materials, paper and packaging, plastics, and advanced carbon materials. Santa Fe Farms will be both a net carbon-negative business itself and an important source of offsets available to other enterprises seeking to reduce their carbon footprint to meet their ESG goals and/or regulatory requirements. Pat and Steven speak about the hemp industry's potential the role might play in mitigating the effects of climate change across the globe, while also creating positive social impact.“What we found out very quickly is that the real value of this plant may go way beyond the products one can make from it… Industrial hemp as we know it today sequesters as much carbon per acre as, for instance, an acre of rainforest. What became apparent to us [at Santa Fe Farms] was that as we look for nature-based solutions to the CO2 crisis, that one of those might well be hemp.” – Steven Gluckstern, Santa Fe Farms
In this episode of ESG Talks, Emilie Nadler, an Associate Director on KBRA's ESG Team, interviews Langston Emerson and Chris Brown from Mindset, a bipartisan public policy firm based in Washington, D.C. Their clients range from household names in financial services to key change makers in energy, insurance, trade, technology, and beyond. Over the years, Mindset has become known for its deep expertise in financial services policy.“[There] has been a huge rise in the topic of ESG in public policy circles… Notably there's been increased talk of ESG-focused regulation, especially from the SEC [but also] the president. President Biden has really pushed a lot of ESG topics to the forefront and that's particularly true with respect to climate change mitigation and adaptation.” – Chris Brown
In this episode of ESG Talks, Andrea Torres Villanueva, an Associate on KBRA's ESG team, interviews Eric Thompson, Senior Managing Director and Global Head of Structured Finance Ratings. Eric and Andrea discuss ESG trends in securitization, the challenges of ESG integration, and KBRA's process of incorporating ESG into structured finance transactions.
In this special episode of ESG Talks, Jim Nadler, KBRA's CEO and President, discusses the importance of ESG on Economics & Beyond with Rob Johnson, a podcast of the Institute for New Economic Thinking (INET). Jim and economist Rob Johnson discuss the profound influence that bond ratings have on shaping social and economic outcomes, how they can contribute to environmental and social responsibility, and why a new approach to bond ratings is urgently necessary.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Miten Amin, a Managing Director on KBRA's Business Development Team in London, interviews Tina De Baere, Head of ESG and Macro Strategy at Cairn Capital. Cairn Capital is a London-based alternative credit asset manager with $6 billion in assets under management. Tina joined Cairn Capital in 2008 as a portfolio manager. Since 2017, Tina's focus has included ESG, and she spearheaded Cairn Capital's push into responsible investing. Tina also developed Cairn Capital's ESG strategy and policy for all of the firm's asset classes, including HY bonds, leveraged loans, and securitized products.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Bill Cox, Global Head of Corporate, Financial, and Government Ratings at KBRA, sits down with Wesley Misson and Katie McShane from Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft. Cadwalader has a globally recognized Fund Finance practice, which spans the U.S. and Europe. Wes is a partner in the firm's Finance Group, where he leads the ESG initiative. He is also co-lead of Cadwalader's U.S.-based Fund Finance practice and has experience in subscription, hybrid, and ESG fund facilities. Katie is an associate in Cadwalader's Finance Group, focusing on the area of fund finance. Katie represents major banks and financial institutions in the structuring, negotiation, and documentation of subscription fund facilities, including ESG facilities. Bill, Wes, and Katie speak about ESG developments in the fund finance space and how the momentum in ESG investing has changed the landscape.
In the final episode of the second season of ESG Talks, Emilie Nadler, an Associate Director on KBRA's ESG Team chats with Pat Welch, KBRA's Chief ESG and Ratings Policy Officer. Pat and Emilie discuss trends in ESG investing, KBRA's recent ESG initiatives, highlights from the second season of ESG Talks plus what's to come in the third season.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Dana Bunting, Senior Managing Director of KBRA's Business Development Team interviews Judy Wesalo Temel, Senior Vice President and Director of Credit Research at Fiera Capital. Judy leads the fixed income credit research team and is responsible for approving or not approving the purchases of a broad range of municipal and corporate credit including state and local governments, higher education, health care, infrastructure, utilities, transportation, financials, and other sectors. She directs the development of credit policy, databases, and other tools to manage clients' portfolio credit risk. Judy also plays a key role in Fiera's U.S. ESG strategies.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Emilie Nadler, KBRA's Associate Director of ESG, interviews Sabina Saragoussi, the Director of Partnerships for Parks. Partnerships for Parks is a private-public partnership between NYC Parks and City Parks Foundation. The organization supports and champions neighborhood volunteers by giving them the tools they need to advocate and care for their community parks and green spaces. KBRA has been a supporter of Partnerships for Parks for the past few years and is excited to announce that we will be volunteering with Partnerships for Parks every year on Earth Day starting in 2022. Emilie and Sabina celebrate Earth month and highlight the amazing work Partnerships for Parks does across NYC.
In this episode of ESG Talks, KBRA's Chief Strategist, Van Hesser, interviews Brian Ford, KBRA's Senior Director of Structured Finance Research. Van and Brian discuss the key findings from a recent KBRA research piece, EPA Greenhouse Gas Scores Shed Light on Auto Loan ABS. The report mapped the Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA) greenhouse gas (GHG) score to the make, model, and year information provided in auto loan asset-level disclosures to calculate an average GHG score for each loan pool.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Peter Giacone, Managing Director and global head of KBRA's Insurance Practice interviews Ariane West of Nephila Climate, the weather, climate, and ESG-focused unit of Nephila Capital, the largest insurance and reinsurance-linked fund manager. Ariane is the Director of Structured Finance at Nephila Climate and focuses on developing new renewable energy-focused hedging products and other credit-linked weather transactions. Peter and Ariane will discuss how the insurance industry fits into the ESG movement.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Emilie Nadler, an Associate Director in KBRA's ESG Group, interviews Stacie Olivares, KBRA's newest board member. Structuring investments, innovation, and initiatives for competitive financial returns and positive social and environmental impact is Stacie's passion. Her career spans the private and public sectors across the areas of investment, technology, and policy. In addition to serving on KBRA's U.S. Board of Directors, Stacie was appointed in 2019 by California Governor, Gavin Newsom, to serve as a Trustee on the board of administration of the California Public Employees' Retirement System (CalPERS), the largest public pension in the U.S. Stacie and Emilie discuss gender challenges in the workplace, COVID-19's impact on gender roles, and how women and men can empower each other at work.
In this episode of ESG Talks, KBRA's Chief Credit Officer, Pat Welch interviews Stephen Pacala and Don Bain. Stephen Pacala is the Frederick D. Petrie Professor in Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at Princeton University. His research focuses on systems ecology, climate change, and the global carbon cycle. He is the founding director of Climate Central, a nongovernmental organization focused on climate change communications. Don Bain is a Senior Advisor at Climate Central. Don is an expert on climate change and the implications of sea-level rise and has advised municipalities on adaptation, risk management, economics, and finance. Steve and Don will discuss two recent studies, the Net-Zero America Project and “Accelerating Decarbonization of the U.S. Energy System.” The Net-Zero America Project, or NZAP, is a Princeton University study that outlines five distinct pathways that could decarbonize the U.S. economy over the next 30 years. “Accelerating Decarbonization of the US Energy System,” commissioned by the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine, provides a policy blueprint for the net-zero transition.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Emilie Nadler, an associate in KBRA's ESG and credit policy team, moderates a conversation between Pat Welch, Chief Credit Officer and Head of ESG, KBRA, and William Cox, Global Head of Corporate, Financial and Government Ratings. They discuss our firm's approach to Environmental, Social and Governance, and more.“We do not plan to ask our credit rating analysts to step into the fray of creating ESG ratings or ESG scores. We do, however, continue to strengthen [analysts'] focus on material, quantitative, and qualitative, E, S, or G factors that impact credit. And that's because we believe that rollup ESG scores by their nature are based on a significant number of subjective, value-based judgments about how to weight and score factors that don't correlate with credit risk.” - William Cox
In the first episode of our second season of ESG Talks, KBRA president and CEO Jim Nadler interviews California State Treasurer Fiona Ma. Treasurer Ma is the 34th state treasurer of California and took office in 2019. She is the first woman of color and the first woman Certified Public Accountant elected to the position. Treasurer Ma has built a reputation as a solution-oriented public servant and has been adept at building unlikely coalitions to overcome California's most complex problems.
In the final episode of the first season of ESG Talks, we recap our latest ESG event hosted in early December, which brought together investors, politicians, issuers, and other market participants to discuss the evolution of ESG and future developments in the space. This included the implications of the election of the incoming president, Joe Biden, who signed to reenter the Paris Climate Agreement and is most likely to prioritize ESG-focused policies. We highlight our two keynote addresses given during the event by U.S. Senator Sherrod Brown of Ohio and U.S. Representative Sean Casten of IL's 6th district.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Yee Cent Wong, a Senior Managing Director in KBRA's Dublin office, interviews Peter Cosmetatos. Peter has been involved in the commercial real estate industry in one way or another for nearly 20 years and is currently the CEO of the Commercial Real Estate Finance Council (CREFC) Europe.
In this episode of ESG Talks, Cecil Smart, Managing Director in KBRA's ABS Commercial team, interviews Alfred Griffin, President of NY Green Bank. Griffin provides an overview of how NY Green Bank works with the private sector to promote clean energy across the state.
In this episode of ESG talks, KBRA's Chief Strategist, Van Hesser, interviews Gray Schweitzer, Head of the US Financial Institutions Group Debt Capital Markets at HSBC. Van and Gray give an overview of the basics of sustainable financing tools (Green, Social, and Sustainability Bonds), speak about how issuers approach ESG, and the implications of the 2020 election cycle on the future of ESG.
In this episode, KBRA's Head of Europe, Mauricio Noé interviews Jeremy Coller, Chief Investment Officer and Chairman of Coller Capital. Mauricio and Jeremy speak about the importance of ESG integration in investment decisions and Jeremy's initiative, Farm Animal Investment Risk and Return (FAIRR), which is a global network of investors seeking to minimize risks in animal production and food supply chains.
This ESG Talks podcast episode features KBRA Head of Aviation, Transportation, and Commercial Finance, Marjan Riggi, and Jill Blickstein, the Head of ESG at American Airlines. In this episode, the two executives discuss how the pandemic has realigned ESG priorities in the industry and the path to making global aviation more sustainable.
In this episode of ESG Talks, KBRA's CEO, Jim Nadler interviews KBRA board member, Lois Scott, on trends in corporate diversity and inclusion initiatives. Lois has held various roles in both the private and public sectors throughout her extensive career. From 2011 to 2015, Lois served as CFO for the city of Chicago under Mayor Rahm Emmanuel and was the first woman to serve in that capacity. Lois has long been a champion for women in business and was one of the co-founders of the professional organization, Women in Public Finance. Today, Lois is president of Epoch Advisors and serves on various corporate boards, including KBRA. She is also involved with many charities and other philanthropic causes.
This episode of ESG Talks features the perspectives of the environmental advocacy community in Washington, D.C. Courtney Taylor, a Partner at Cypress Group who focuses on environmental law and regulation, interviews the Environmental Defense Fund's Senior Director for Strategic Planning, Elgie Holstein. Courtney and Elgie are both Washington insiders, having worked in the capital for years. Courtney held positions at the Environmental Defense Fund, the Department of Justice, and the Department of Interior, while Elgie served in various roles under President Clinton and worked as a senior adviser for energy during President Obama's election campaign. Courtney and Elgie discuss how the pandemic is affecting environmental policy priorities, their strategies for the 2020 election, and how the financial industry can help create a more sustainable world.
Our inaugural episode focuses on cybersecurity, a prominent governance risk within the ESG framework. Bill Cox, Global Head of Corporate, Financial and Government Ratings at KBRA interviews KBRA's Chairman and founder, Jules Kroll, the pioneer of the modern investigations, intelligence, and corporate security industry. “What we have today is we have more violations of privacy, we have more stealing, we have more involvements with nation-states—either directly or through proxies,” Kroll said. “That's why it feels like there's a lot more going on because there is a lot more going on.”