Making Permaculture Stronger

Sometimes I find myself inside a dialogue that deeply meets me where I am and lifts me up to a place with more clarity, more vitality, and more possibility. This episode with Pamela Mang was one of these. Pamela is long-term friend and colleague of past guests Carol Sanford, Joel Glanzberg, Ben Haggard, and Bill Reed. She has been working in the space of regenerative design, resourcing and development for many decades. Co-founder of Regenesis Group, she is co-author (with Ben) of the 2016 book Regenerative Design and Development. She is also part of the faculty that runs The Regenerative Practitioner (TRP) programme. In this dialogue Pamela helps me grok the tetrad of regenerative development that Regenesis works from in relation to my own work on Living Design Process. From this paper which in turn sourced it from Regenesis group. https://youtu.be/UJdnMghawTY Upcoming TRPs in NZ and AU Enrolments for the next Australian programme for TRP are open July 15th - August 19, 2022 and the programme commences on September 7th, 2022. Contact me if you'd like to be connected to Drika, Alana or Lara who are the AU co-hosts. Enrolments for the next New Zealand programme are open July 15th - August 13th and the programme commences on September 2nd, 2022. I am considering enrolling myself so I may see you on the course. Contact me if you'd like to be connected to Lucy-Mary who is the NZ liaison. Quotable Quotes Now for a few things Pamela said that I was moved to write down here: Design should be a vitalising process. It creates new vitality, new energies that can source different orders of health, different orders of understanding and so onPamela Mang Pamela Mang The secret about these frameworks is that they don't replace intuition. They hone itPamela Mang Living Design Process Find out more about the Living Design Process Pamela was resourcing me to look at through the tetrad framework here – the next online course of Living Design Process kicks off August 6th 2022 (why not complete before your TRP and make this a year of next-level learning!). Support the Making Permaculture Stronger Book Project This episode also marks the launch of a crowdfunding campaign to fund the creation of the Making Permaculture Stronger book – here's the video and here's a link to the campaign page. Support us and feel the good vibes that follow :-). https://youtu.be/1O8KY_Rb-2U

Enjoy part of two of this rich dialogue about bringing Living Design Process to professional permaculture design consultancy. Will make more sense if you listen to Part One first. An aerial photo of the Mayberry project which is mentioned in this episode and is a good example of a design process that uses earthworks and trees to create beautiful organic spaces in between...

Many thanks to Alec Higgins for prompting this exploration. In the first of two instalments, we develop premises for transitioning into professional permaculture design work. Enjoy and to learn more about working with Living Design Process please visit www.LivingDesignProcess.org - the next course starts in August and you can learn more about it here. A photo of the early development of the project I explored with John Caruthers here. From drone footage by Peter Watts

It was an honour to connect in this episode with Daniel Christian Wahl to explore what it means to align with life's regenerative impulse. Here's Daniel's book Designing Regenerative Cultures, his Medium Blog and here's his wonderful youtube series Voices of the Regeneration. Early on Daniel mentions Christopher Alexander's Challenge to Permaculture. A few times he mentions Henri Bortoft's book The Wholeness of Nature. Daniel Christian Wahl Enjoy, thanks to Daniel for visiting Making Permaculture Stronger, and thanks to our mutual friend Clinton Callahan for connecting us.

In this lively second conversation (find the first here) Clinton Callahan and I dive right in to swap notes on the dynamics of living creation processes. We cover creating from fear, chaos, and the groundless void as well as feelings, the unknown, the phoenix process, surfing the wave you are are, and much else. https://youtu.be/qKNGwiqGxTo You can find out more about Clinton at his website here and during our chat he mentioned fearclub.org, rageclub.org and possibilityteam.org

On March 17, 2022, at 85 years of age, Christopher Alexander passed away peacefully in his home in West Sussex, England. This post celebrates his life, and for me, personally, the sheer magnitude his work has had on the course of my life, including Making Permaculture Stronger as a project. If any of you have been touched by this project, then you have been indirectly impacted by Alexander's life-long quest toward life, beauty and wholeness. Find out about who Alexander was here and here and here and here. Learn about Alexander's direct influence on my (Dan Palmer's) work, and on this very project here and here. A Poem Thank you to Ann Medlock, a past client (and hence collaborator) of Alexander's, for permission to share these photos and this poem here: Alexander sculpts a building out of air and wisdom waving his hands squinting his eyes to see what only he and God can see in this clearing on the bluff. Listening to something we cannot hear, he brings into being a house so solid, silent and calm, so embracing, consoling and inevitable, that it draws in and restores every open soul that finds its way here. And many do. Pilgrims who have heard, who've seen a photograph, who sense that here there is something mysterious, rare, perhaps even inspired. On a clear blue afternoon we sit at a long table in the sun, the house embracing this garden and all of us who bask here amid the calendulas and ferns. Feasting on tabouli and cold birds, we talk of poetry and paintings, of terraces in Tuscany and homemade wine, of our work, our passions, our quests. We are friends, gathered here by the grace that emanates from this holy place. At Christmas, the clan assembles. The tree, dressed in familiar ornaments, touches the coffered ceiling and sends the scent of balsam to mingle with fire, roast and cakes. Thick walls hold out the cold, the wind, and every danger of the world we know. Comets cut across the high windows as we are drawn in and held fast, together, blessed by the house that Alexander made, while listening to God. Three Examples of Directly Alexander-Inspired Design Processes https://vimeo.com/456075580/0e4846f331 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2k35m_Q9xg&ab_channel=MakingPermacultureStronger https://youtu.be/l8lffVxj7DI Some Quotes Here I share a selection of some of my favourite quotes from Alexander's many books. The Timeless Way of Building (1979) You are alive when you are wholehearted, true to yourself, true to your own inner forces, and able to act freely according to the nature of the situations you are in.[...] To be happy, and to be alive, in this sense, are almost the same. Of course, if you are alive, you are not always happy in the sense of feeling pleasant; experiences of joy are balanced by experiences of sorrow. But the experiences are all deeply felt; and above all, you are whole; and conscious of being real.To be alive, in this sense, is not a matter of suppressing some forces or tendencies, at the expense of others; it is a state of being in which all forces which arise in you can find expression; you live in balance among the forces which arise in you; you are unique as the pattern of forces which arises is unique; you are at peace, since there are no disturbances created by underground forces which have no outlet, at one with yourself and your surroundings.This state cannot be reached merely by inner work.There is a myth, sometimes widespread, that you need do only inner work, in order to be alive like this; that you are entirely responsible for your problems; and that to cure yourself, you need only change yourself. This teaching has some value, since it is so easy to imagine that your problems are caused by "others." But it is a one-sided and mistaken view which also maintains the arrogance of the belief that the individual is self-s...

In this episode Brianne Vaillancourt and I explore the the edge between Possibility Management and Permaculture. In particular we explore the potential to harness conscious feelings in our design work. Having started this conversation back in episode fifteen with Clinton Callahan, I feel joy to be going there again. Joy because the clarity of the distinctions I have learned in Possibility Management contexts are contributing so much to my work in design, holding space, and my life generally. Brianne Vaillancourt & Dan Palmer Learn more about Brianne (and sign up to her newsletter!) through her personal website. Learn more about Clinton at his personal website. Learn more about Anne-Chloé Destremau, who Brianne mentions, here. Learn more about Possibility Management, Rage Club, Fear Club and Mage Training which are all mentioned. Something that wasn't mentioned, but I was thinking of during the episode, is this site using the term Whole Permaculture to explore the Permaculture-Possibility Management bridge. If you are interested in learning more about Possibility Management in an actual training experience, I recommend this online Expand the Box training run by my friend, colleague and guide Vera Franco. Huge thanks to Ellen' Schwindt for the musical intermission - below is a video of the larger composition I sample. Let me know if these things work for you and I'll get them in more often! https://player.vimeo.com/video/529143485

In this episode in was my pleasure to get to know permaculture consultant Eliosa Lewis from New Climate Culture. I thoroughly enjoyed hearing about Eloisa's journey and work and look forward to having her back. Here is a link to Kevin Bayuk of Project Drawdown that Eloisa speaks so highly of. Here is the crypto token She talks about: https://icube.finance I look forward to your comments (including questions for future conversations with Eloisa) and at the start I mention online events on Holistic Decision Making and Living Design Process you can find out more about here.

In this episode it is my great pleasure to welcome Carol Sanford back to explore her brand new book Indirect Work. To support and celebrate the book's launch, Carol has offered a giveaway offer exclusively for listeners of Making Permaculture Stronger. If you listen to and then share this episode on your website or any of your social media channels (such as sharing from the Making Permaculture Stronger facebook page), and then let me know about it, you go into the draw to access: A free copy of Indirect Work posted to your doorA free ticket to a 90-minute Q&A on Indirect Work with Carol 10am PT, May 2, 2022 ($200 value)The link to download a pdf Self-Assessment for Regenerative Integrity. $100 value There are also a bunch of different offers for buying different numbers of books here on Carol's site. Now, a little taste of what this book is all about. Carol explains that: indirect work is building the capacity in people to consistently think at higher levels in order to create innovations for advancing specific contexts and streams of activity. This capacity allows us to become instruments for the regeneration and evolution of the living systems within which we are nested—to become effective change agents.Carol Sanford Here are a few of my favourite passages in the book. For example, every time we try to solve a problem, dividing it into its components to understand it better, seeking to figure out its causes in order to address them, we fall under the spell of classical mechanics. Every time we translate something into a replicable (and therefore scalable) procedure or recipe, we've stepped into a machine universe. This is so pervasive in Western and now global culture that it becomes invisible to us. It can be very difficult to get our minds to shake off this continually reinforced pattern in order to question our fundamental shared beliefs about how the universe works. Earlier I said that this book was addressed to well-intentioned people who seek to make the world a better place through the instruments that are available to them, such as business, social activism, or creation of policies and institutions. I also said that most of these efforts are likely to be compromised or fail because they still operate from an old paradigm, within which the world is assembled from discrete pieces, each playing its part in a cosmic machine. Our machine-based metaphors are so pervasive that we hardly notice them: input, output, feedback, leverage, rewiring, reprogramming, metrics, ideal state, and on and on.A living or regenerative paradigm has a very different character and uses correspondingly different metaphors. It starts with an image of the living, dynamic, and unfolding universe, in which each entity is endowed with the spark of life and an innate capacity for growth and evolution with regard to how it expresses itself. Working from this paradigm, one doesn't attempt to push the world and its inhabitants to an ideal state—that would be coercive and life denying. Rather, one encourages and enables living beings to discover and express their innate potential as contributors to living communities. For those of us who truly want to transform the world, it is the regenerative paradigm that will enable us to do so.This confronts us with an important question. Are the underlying beliefs, assumptions, patterns, and language that characterize my culture derived from a machine or a living systems paradigm? And if I want to cultivate a living systems culture, what must I do I to help with the shift? (note - Carol answers this question in our conversation!) Consciousness is the necessary antidote to our overwhelming tendency to engage in automatic habits of thought and behavior. In its absence, these habits extend to the most general reaches of our collective understanding of the universe, itself, conceived of by Western Europeans in the time of the Renaissance as a giant clockwork.

In this episode I re-release an interview Millie Haughey recently did with me for her own podcast which is called Unplugged, Tapped In. We explore the idea that most of us are trapped in the all-pervasive cage of mechanical worldview without even realising it and what becomes possible when the cage is seen and the door out is located. This will be a theme of some upcoming writing and solo episodes also. In the intro I mention Millie's interview with my dear friend and long-term Making Permaculture Stronger collaborator James Andrews. I also mention this episode in which I interviewed the founder of Possibility Management Clinton Callahan (or see as youtube here). During the chat I mention Carol Sanford a fair bit too.

In this episode I get to inquire into permaculture design process with Penny Livingston-Stark. Penny has been teaching internationally and working professionally in the land management, regenerative design, and permaculture development field for 25 years and has extensive experience in all phases of ecologically sound design and construction as well as the use of natural non-toxic building materials. She specializes in site planning and the design of resource-rich landscapes integrating, rainwater collection, edible and medicinal planting, spring development, pond and water systems, habitat development and watershed restoration for homes, co-housing communities, businesses, and diverse yield perennial farms. She as taught Herbal Medicine Making, Natural Building and Permaculture around the US as well as Bali, Indonesia, Peru, Germany, Mexico, France, Turkey, Portugal, Australia, Belize, Brazil, England and Costa Rica. Check out Penny's website here and the ecoversity course she mentions here. Check out the offerings I mention on Holistic Decision Making here and Living Design Process here. Oh and please tell me what you think of the new soundtrack too with mega-gratitude to Pip Heath for creating it!

In this episode I share a lovely dialogue with Bill Houghton, a long-term follower and supporter of Making Permaculture Stronger who recently reached out to connect. I love his opener: "I'm just intrigued as hell to know where you're going man!" Enjoy, and know I am so appreciating the richness of your comments and messages as we navigate this journey together. Bill Houghton

Hey all. I have been so energised from the spirit and content of comments on my last post/episode. Not to mention the private messages coming through. Then Jason reached out and helped me take it up a notch in this delightful dialogue. A dialogue sparked by how the last post/episode fed into some of his latest adventures and insights. Enjoy, do let me know what this stirs up or brings alive inside of you (in the comments or a message through the contact form). Then catch you all in part two of the talking points series - can't wait! Also, I have a few questions for you to ponder. Deep down, which image best represents the lens you look through and hence the world you see? How sure are you about this? This: or this: ps. One little note of clarity is that I've personally been referring to mechanical and living worldviews (of which there are others, I just happen to be focusing on these two right now). Then I have been using the word paradigm to refer to the four levels of paradigm Carol Sanford has previously shared with us. I wanted to acknowledge that in this dialogue we use the words paradigms and worldviews more loosely where when mechanistic paradigm is spoken of this is exactly the same as the mechanistic worldview I've been talking about in recent and upcoming posts.

Making Permaculture Stronger's core focus is regenerating permaculture design process together. By this, I mean the deep and hard work of a) honing in on permaculture's essential core, and b) sourcing and developing design process understandings from, and in alignment with, that place. A necessary aspect of this work is developing new material (ideas, metaphors, diagrams, examples, practices etc). An equally necessary aspect is making space for this new material by finding and letting go of material that does not align or belong. I believe this work is like an acupuncture point essential to the development of permaculture's radical, needed and enormous potential. I also believe that this work, which is ours, as permaculturalists, to do, has barely begun. This series of three blog posts and corresponding podcast episodes is a heart-felt invitation into this kind of work. Where I want to be clear for you, and in within myself, that I am not writing this stuff as any kind of expert or person-with-the-answers. While I have a couple of tentative conclusions and perspectives, I mainly have a wealth of questions and a passionate commitment to create and hold spaces inside of which this kind of work can happen. So, let the experiment begin. This series was prompted by the appearance of an exciting new book into the literature of permaculture design. Its title is Building your Permaculture Property, its authors permaculture teachers and designers Rob Avis, Michelle Avis, and Takota Coen (who is also a commercial farmer). The book lays out a clear and comprehensive approach to permaculture design process. A process the authors have developed over decades of combined practical experience, both personal and professional. I celebrate the existence of this book and all the hard-won learning that has gone into it. Furthermore, I believe this book is a profound contribution to exactly the kind of work I have just been describing.1 It is also true that when I initially flipped through it, I felt some big feelings. Feelings that are informing and energising my effort to write these posts. Feelings that part of my current experiment involves me sharing openly here. I felt JOY in the sheer existence of this heart-felt, earnest attempt to advance the clarity and rigour of permaculture design. This work is so needed and such a gaping hole in permaculture that these three wonderful humans have done their very best to help fill. I am still feeling really happy about this as I am at the obvious extent of collaboration between the authors whose different strengths flow into and make the book so much better than any one of them could have made it.I felt ANGER to note a disconnect between the presentation of design process in the book and the design process developments and dialogues I have been involved in though Making Permaculture Stronger. From my perspective seemingly fertile opportunities for cross-pollination have not happened, where, to come to the point, the book includes much material that I have poured a lot of my life-force into arguing does not belong in, or do justice to, permaculture's design process potential.2 While this anger has since mostly receded, it is still there also.I felt SAD to reflect on the resulting prognosis for permaculture's evolution, if there are not established systems for pooling and collaboratively crash-testing and co-developing our mutual advances. If every design process book lays out its own take largely in isolation from a larger field of collaborative development.I felt AFRAID, considering my impression of the disconnect, how I might channel these feelings toward engaging with the authors about their work in a positive, constructive way. Afraid of how gaps I perceive between our perspectives might be bridged without bridges being burned! I feel this fear still.Finally, I felt a different kind of ANGER in seeing what seemed to me to be a profusion of superficial endorseme...

In this episode we explore part of what it means, or might mean, to bring indigenous perspectives to permaculture design with Laura Adams from Seven Winds LLC in Maryland, USA. This episode started with an email from Laura sharing some thoughts on the last episode: Greetings Dan,I have been listening to your podcast with great interest over the last several months whilst taking part in Geoff Lawton's online PDC.  (Although I have been exploring permaculture for many years) I am also a supporter of and very excited about the Reading Landscape Film, congratulations on making the goal.  I was prompted to send this note when I heard the most recent podcast you released regarding a conversation with your core group about systems thinking and more.  In that podcast you encouraged your listeners to hit pause and answer the question(s) themselves prior to continuing to passively listen which led me to engage with the conversation more actively and I thought there may be a value in sharing a perspective.I agree with you that when you prod systems thinking, it quickly dissolves back to parts, and I believe this is because it evolved from parts thinking (or mechanistic thinking) in the first place. However generative or regenerative thinking is totally different (until the word gets co-opted). I come at permaculture from the perspective of a cultural and spiritual root which is Kongo-Taino out of the Caribbean. When we look at something (be it a person, place, river, mountain, event), the first thing we acknowledge is that it is “Un Misterios” (effectively a spirit) and we know that we cannot possibly understand it fully and if we pull it into its parts, the essence of it (the spirit) will disappear on us. The mode of approach is one of listening and sensing and letting it tell us about itself, knowing that this process could be indefinite. Over time that place (or person, animal, what have you) slowly reveals different aspects or understandings of itself to us, if we continue to pay attention (or “follow the trail”).For sake of illustration, let's say we are talking about a particular land, it could be a “property” a landowner has purchased. Your typical permaculture designer is going to go in and analyze it for water, access, structures and the various desires the landowner expresses interest in. This is a big improvement on blindly going in a throwing structures and access wherever. However, the land itself has its own spirit, as does everyone who lives on it. I really do not see that permaculture as taught even tries to understand this. The reason is simple, it cannot be measured, easily seen, or “proven”. This is where Indigenous or Re-indigenized culture clashes with Permaculture. I understand that people want to shy away from terms that cannot fully be defined such as “spirit” (or even essence). However geometry is built upon three undefined terms- a point, line and plane.  I do understand why permaculture teachers do not want to get into these waters, (there would be a big backlash and accusations of pseudoscience). Yet, permaculture wants to cosy up with Indigenous cultures (and it should do this to reach its potential). However, if you do want to cosy up with Indigenous cultures, then you have to be ready to see life as infinite worlds within worlds, each one essentially Un Misterios.Keep up the good work!Laura Seven Winds LLC To which I replied: Laura thank you so much for your beautiful email where everything you share resonates with and inspires me deeply. Isn't it such a muddle how we find ourselves trying to force the deep beautiful mysterious and sacred essence-spirit of a place into our puny little mechanical containers and how in doing so we cut ourselves off from perhaps the most deeply nourishing and soul-warming energies there are to access as a human being (namely relaxing back into the larger pattern of life).Un Misterios. Love it.Two questions. First,

In a world first for this project, this episode shares one of last year's sessions with the Making Permaculture Stronger Developmental Community. Huge thanks to Han Kortekaas, Ronella Gomez, Nicholas Franz, Zola Rose, Barry Gibson, Jon Buttery, Arthur Buitelaar, Dan Milne, Byron Birss & Joel Mortimer for co-creating this with me and for their gracious permission to share here. Here are some of us during a more recent session. Learn more about the Making Permaculture Stronger Developmental Community here. Below is the section on systems thinking in the book Practical Permaculture by Jessi Bloom & Dave Boehnlein (p. 18) that is mentioned during this episode. This section is viewable as a free preview at google books. Similarly, you can also check out page 20 of Toby Hemenway's The Permaculture City here if you like. From Practical Permaculture by Jessi Bloom & Dave Boehnlein

In this episode my friend John Carruthers shares five insights or principles he's distilled during five years of developing a 70-acre property in Central Victoria, Australia. It was an honour to act for a part of the journey as what John describes as a ‘robust river guide,' and I am so thrilled to see John and his partner Rosie in full stewardship of their own process and the beautiful forms that are emerging from it. Here is the video we mention several times in the chat – thanks to John for permission to share it here. https://vimeo.com/557550938/47265875f4 NOTE: WATCH THIS SPACE – JUST SORTING A TECH GLITCH WITH EMBEDDING THE VIDEO – WILL BE EMBEDDED HERE IN NO TIME AT ALL AND MEANTIME YOU CAN WATCH IT HERE John also sent these further notes: a) the deep ripping across the southern half of the property begun this year is an “option value” decision because it's an excellent BNS (Best Next Step) for almost any other activity thereafter, be it cover-crop pre-pasture, shelter belt tree planting, or agroforestry or silvopasture. It's a valuable precursor step.b) The widely-spaced keylined beds in one paddock is where we've begun planting oaks, silky oaks, cedar and native pines as a long-term (inter-generational) agroforestry / silvopasture trial. We have planted several hundred this year and forecast planting three times that over a few years. The oaks are being planted from acorns we collected and germinated. This first planting is our BNS before switching focus to the house site early next year.Also the quote I cited “I count him braver who overcomes his desires, than who conquers his enemies – for the hardest victory is over self” is by Aristotle NOT Socrates – as I may have suggested :-) If anyone is interested in connecting with John or in the services of drone pilot and film maker Peter Watts send me a message and I can connect you. I also tracked down this video of my first visit to Limestone road, which we talk about in the chat too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESvvzbEOwjk and I found this one also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sprRI18xYw Finally I am excited to announce that today is the first day of our in-house six week crowd funding campaign for the Reading Landscape Documentary Film project. Come get amongst!

It was my pleasure to yarn with Sand Talk author Tyson Yunkaporta on permaculture and much else. Tyson's perspective complements and contrasts with that of Leah Penniman in the last episode. Please do tell me what you got from the chat in the comments below! Tyson Yunkaporta Permaculture isn't a form of gardening - it's a method of inquiry about relationships - that's all it is. And it's awesome and in that way it's similar to traditional ecological knowledge from all over the planet and it's a constantly shifting evolving body of knowledge too, that's never the same in the same place twice. Love it!Tyson Yunkaporta The above quote comes from this talk between Tyson and my friends at the Australian Food Sovereignty Alliance: https://youtu.be/61XN9_uILpU?t=3543 Also a big shout out to my my three friends Woody, Meg and Patrick who make up Artist as Family who Tyson speaks about in the yarn. Coincidentally Woody is to appear in our upcoming documentary film about reading landscape. To learn more about that project visit the website www.ReadingLandscape.org and either subscribe to the newsletter or donate to get invited to a free project zoom call on July 15, 2021, with David Holmgren, filmmaker Dave Meagher, and myself.

It was a deep honour to have Leah Penniman from Soul Fire Farm join me for this conversation. Along with Leah's beautiful sharing, I was grateful for the feelings the conversation evoked (many of which only emerged when I listened to our chat again afterwards). I feel like I gained some powerful waypoints in navigating the journey back home. A journey I'm sure I'm not alone in craving. I also appreciated hearing the heartache Leah has around certain patterns she perceives permaculture to be perpetuating. My focus in the conversation was about inviting and engaging with Leah's perspective. A perspective which comes from her standing outside permaculture and looking in. I would love to hear your perspective in the comments below. What of Leah's experience of permaculture resonates with your own? What, if anything, doesn't? What impact, if any, does you listening to this episode have on your journey forward? Learn more about Soul Fire Farm here, and check out a rich trove of Leah sharings on youtube here. This one's a goodie: https://youtu.be/zvQJP8QP-Ng And here's one helpful summary vid in which Leah shares the Soul Fire Farm journey: https://youtu.be/LVZq3jITD2g Also here's a link to the work of Toshi Reagon (see also Toshi's Opera about Octavia Butler's Parable of the Sower Opera) that Leah recommends during our chat. Which, by the way, I must mention happened way back on January 8th, 2021. What did this conversation evoke in you? Would you like to hear more conversations of this nature on the show? Should I share Tyson Yunkaporta's perspectives on the same matters in the next episode? Please let me know in a comment below!

In this conversation, which follows on from the previous episode, explores Looby Macnamara's design web. We dive into the topic of emergent design process, and in particular Looby's design web approach to designing anything. I was pleasantly surprised to discover in my preparations for this chat that Looby is a co-traveller in the realm of design process innovation, earnestly striving via the design web to get free of traps such as: Viewing design process as a linear sequence of stepsThe logical fallacy of having "design" be one of the steps within the whole "design" processHaving observation as a step as if at some point you stop observingGetting too prescriptive about the end state you are heading towardSeparating planning from action in ways that cripple the possibility of the best outcomes and discoveriesGetting paralysed by complexityGetting stuck in one's headMechanical (as opposed to biological and ecological) metaphors Learn more about Looby's work including books and courses at her Cultural Emergence site here. Also if you're keen to have Looby support you / us in applying the design web to something in our own lives, make a comment below and if there is enough interest and enthusiasm we'll make it so! Here is the design web: Looby Macnamara's Design Web Here is a juicy quote I pulled out from Looby's latest book Cultural Emergence: The Design Web is a non-linear process with non-linear outcomes and possibilities. Emergent design reflects the flexibility and unexpectedness of Cultural Emergence. It allows for solutions to emerge that take the design in a new direction. It is organic, responsive, adaptive, fluid, flowing and dynamic. As the design emerges we continue to weave our way between the anchor points. An attitude of emergence enables us to flow and move with what is arising. It recognises that things are not always as they seem, there is more to discover and be revealed. The process is alchemical with surprises along the way.Designing regenerative cultures is an ongoing process of emergence, not a permanent destination. We are designing for and with living systems that are organic, dynamic and unpredictable. We are setting direction and intentions. It is an invitation for change, rather than being exact or prescriptive.Looby Macnamara in Cultural Emergence

For some years I've been itching to get permaculture designer, teacher and author Looby Macnamara on the show and that dream has finally come true. Not only that, we had such a lovely chat we've already booked in a second conversation, where Looby will take us through what she calls her permaculture design web. Find out more about Looby's books and other work at her personal website here. Looby - image source Find out about Looby's colleague in cultural emergence, Jon Young, at his website here. And here is an image of Looby's permaculture design web that I am excited to explore in our next chat. Here's vid of Looby introducing Cultural Emergence https://youtu.be/bAAFfL4gQaE Enjoy the episode, leave a comment, and catch you in episode 60!

I recently enjoyed the first of what I hope will be many lovely conversations with Takota Coen about permaculture's potential. Takota is co-author of the new design process book Building Your Permaculture Property. In Takota's words, we "talk about how a lack of a living, adaptive process is holding permaculture back from reaching its fullest potential, and what we can all do about it." Here's the youtube version, here's Takota's podcast where this chat was originally shared, and you can learn more about what I'm calling Living Design Process here. Enjoy and please do leave a comment sharing what you make of the stuff we explore! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIJvfkdsxQA Dan and Takota mid-chat

Greetings all. In this episode I get to ask my friend and colleague Michael Wardle from Savour Soil Permaculture all kinds of questions about the history and current state of his work as a professional permaculture designer and educator. Lots of great perspectives and hard-earned learnings in this one - I look forward to seeing what you make of it in the comments! Michael with one of his teachers :-). You can check out Michael's facebook page here and his website here, including his design consultancy offerings and a section with a bunch of edible gardening tips here. Michael also has a youtube channel with videos such as this one dropping thick and fast: https://youtu.be/gtGLoHXqRwQ

Hey all. So I had the urge to surf along a little in the wake of the last episode, and reflect further on Carol Sanford's Seven First Principles of Regeneration. Thus, in this episode I reflect on, unpack and further explore what Carol shared about the seven first principles and how they are enriching my own development. My intention for the episode was: I am continuing to explore Carol Sanford's Seven First Principles of Regeneration...in a way that supports listeners (and myself!) to better grasp and go experiment with them...so that we realising together, any value they can bring to our lives, projects and the Making Permaculture Stronger journey. Hope you enjoy and I look forward to hearing what you make of all this in the comments :-). Further Reading, Watching, and Listening on Carol Sanford's Seven First Principles of Regeneration If, like me, you're itching to dive deeper, I found this most helpful series of blog posts (and a separate series of short videos) where Carol clarifies: The history and practice of regeneration (or see this video introducing first principles)Identifying and working with wholes not parts (or see video here)Essence (or singularity) (or see video here)Potential (not problems) (or see video here)Development (video only)Nestedness (or see video here)Nodal intervention (or see video here)Fields (video only) Here's a quote I really liked from the essence post: Looking to existence, writing down our observations or collecting facts, will not reveal singularity. In order to sniff out essence, we must become trackers and look for it in the same way that native peoples follow the traces of animals who have passed by. Essence becomes apparent in the patterns that are specific to a person, those that reveal how they engage with the world, their purpose in life, the unique value they create as the result of their endeavors. The same is true for the essence of any natural system, community, or organization.Carol Sanford Finally, Here's a 20m video (with poor quality audio but worth it) of Carol talking about what regeneration is. She gets into the Seven First Principles about 10 minutes in.

In this episode pioneering regenerative thinker Carol Sanford rejoins me to share what she calls The Seven First Principles of Regeneration. Here's a sketch of the Living Systems Framework she takes us through: Sketch by Dan based on Carol's description Resources to Deepen Learning My first chat with Carol (also see these follow up words from Carol)My second chat with Carol where she shares her four levels of paradigmCarol's websiteThe Deep Pacific Change Agent Community (That Dan is part of)A series of articles in which Carol applies the Seven First Principles to educationCarol going through the principles in a different way on her Business Second Opinion PodcastCarol's book The Regenerative Life in which she goes through the seven first principlesWholeness and the Implicate Order by David Bohm Carol Sanford. A few transcribed lines from the episode Thanks to MPS patron Jon Buttery for pulling some comments that stood out for him from the chat (with approx times): 13:36 – "I don’t want you to be disappointed that after a year you haven’t got them [the seven first principles], that’s a good sign" 18:57 - "You can’t go do – in the sense that you’ll change something – you have to go think a different way and you have to start in a different place" 22:43 - "The word ‘systems thinking’ is thrown around for a lot of things that are machine based"  23:23 – "There are no feedback loops …. we impose those kinds of ideas" 24:05 – "A fragmented view …  we assume … if we get good enough … somehow we’ll see how they all relate"  26:53 – "What is the work this place does in this planet?  … what is its story?" 30:23 – "Watch yourself making lists" 32:26 – "Fragmentation is the basis of every problem on the earth" 38:40 – "It took me literally a couple of decades to learn to see essence. … it’s a different way of seeing the world"

Welcome back to Part Two of a conversation with permaculture co-originator David Holmgren. In which David continues sharing significant milestones from his many decades as a practicing permaculture designer. Thanks to this project's wonderful patrons, I was once again able to have the audio professionally transcribed. The text below then received significant edits for clarity from patron Jon Buttery (thanks Jon!), myself, and most importantly David. Thanks also to David for kindly sharing relevant photos that help bring the text to life. Don't miss Part One if you haven't yet heard/read it, and given the quality of thinking David shares in this continuation, I hope you'll leave a comment. I anticipate a follow up conversation with David exploring questions and reflections from your comments, so please make the most of the opportunity. Finally, given this conversation again touches on the core skill of reading landscape, please check out and consider supporting the documentary film David, myself, and videographer Dave Meagher are currently endeavouring to bring into the world. Starting Holmgren Design Services Dan Palmer: All right. Well, here I am for the continuation of the discussion we started earlier. After a bit of a break, must have been, I don’t know, six weeks or something.    David Holmgren: Yeah. It’s been a busy time.  Dan Palmer: I’ll say! - a busy and very interesting time. It turned out the first recording was about an hour, and we got to the point where you'd started Holmgren Design Services, so that seems like a great place to start. You’d told us a lot about the project at your mother’s place in New South Wales and the learning you’d been doing from Hakai Tane about strategic planning, and then shrinking that down to apply to a site level. It’d be awesome to hear about the experience of moving into the space of permaculture design consultancy.    David Holmgren:  In 1983 I started a business and registered a business name. There were lot of things that were going on in my life, which I can also correlate with things that were happening in the wider world: that led me to getting serious earning a living, personal relationships, and also living in the city. The consultancy work I did, was primarily advising and designing for people who were moving onto rural properties; what these days people call a ‘tree-change’.   Consulting on a Central Victorian property in 2020 (as part of the Reading Landscape film project) That work fell into sort of two broad types. One-day verbal onsite advisory, walking around the property and suggesting things with clients. Then there was a more limited number of clients where I was providing reports and plans that gave me the opportunity to reflect. There were a lot of constraints on how to make a viable business in that, especially if your work wasn’t focused on affluent people, but instead empowering people who were going to get out and do these things themselves, often starting from scratch, and often making big mistakes. My advice and design drew on a combination of my own experience as well as observing how others had tackled the back to land process over the previous decade. By then I also had a very strong commitment to Victoria and South Eastern Australia of landscapes and ecologies and design issues that I was familiar with in that territory.   Dan Palmer: Was that where all or the majority of your professional work happened?    David Holmgren: Yeah, it was. There was occasional work further-afield - certainly into the dry Mediterranean country in South Australia and into New South Wales, Sydney region, but most of it was in Victoria.  Dan Palmer: Permaculture was a new thing so in a sense you were defining the industry or making it up as you went along.   David Holmgren: Yeah. It was also a time of very strong backlash against alternative ideas. When I set up the business, I had mixed feelings about whether I would descri...

I'm thrilled in this episode to share the first part of a two-part interview in which David Holmgren shares his journey with permaculture design process over the decades. Scroll down to access the full transcript of this conversation, with huge thanks to David for sharing the historical photographs which really bring the story to life. Note that in collaboration with David I had also previously created a downloadable PDF showing the timeline of David's design process journey that might provide a helpful supporting reference. Finally, be sure to check out the brand new Reading Landscape with David Holmgren documentary project website which is so closely related to this episode. The Full Interview Transcript (Edited for flow and readability) Dan Palmer (DP):Welcome to the next episode of the Making Permaculture Stronger podcast. I'm super excited today. I've travelled about half an hour up the road and I'm sitting at a permaculture demonstration property and home called Melliodora. Sitting next to me is David Holmgren. David Holmgren (DH): Good to welcome you here. DP: I'm very excited to be here with this microphone between us and to have this opportunity to have you share the story of your journey with permaculture design process over the decades. David and Dan co-teaching in 2018 DH: Yeah, and that's something we've worked on together in courses: our personal journeys with that. Certainly through those courses, working together has elicited and uncovered different aspects of me understanding my own journey. Childhood DH: Thinking about design process through the lens of childhood experiences, I was always a constructor/builder, making cubbies, constructing things and yet never had any family role models for that. My father wasn't particularly practical with tools, and yet I was always in whatever workshop there was in our suburban home as a young child. So making things, imagining things which don't exist, and then bringing them to life was definitely part of my childhood experience. I don't know, particularly, why in my last years of high school I had some vague notion that I might enrol in West Australian University in architecture. But I left to travel around Australia instead because I was hitchhiking mad in 1973. And in that process, I came across a lot of different ideas to do with the counter culture and alternative ways of living. Studying Environmental Design in Tasmania Most significantly, I came across a course in Tasmania in Hobart called Environmental Design and I met some of the enrolled students. I'd realised by that stage that I was not cut out to do any sort of conventional university course. I was too radical and free in my thinking and wasn't wanting to be constrained within any discipline or accounting for things through exam processes. DP: What age were you? DH: I was 18 at that time, and this course in Environmental Design really attracted me. Undergraduate students, who were doing the generalist degree in environmental design, were sometimes working on projects with postgraduate students who were specialising in architecture, landscape architecture or urban planning at the post graduate level. Mt Nelson campus where Environmental Design School was part of the Tas College of Advanced Education 1970-80 There was no fixed curriculum. There was no fixed timetable. Half the staff budget was for visiting lecturers and outside professionals. There was a self assessment process at the end of each semester, which then led to a major study at the end of the three year generalist degree. There was the same self assessment process for the postgraduate level. So you got up to the finishing line, and then had to show your results, and that was to a panel that included outside professionals that you had a say in choosing. DP: Suitably radical. DH: I believe it was the most radical experiment in tertiary education in Australia's history.

Such a deep honour to have my dear friend and very first ever podcast guest Rosemary ('Rowe') Morrow from the Blue Mountains Permaculture Institute back on the show (after being my very first ever guest!) sharing her permaculture journey over four decades this week. Some of the topics you'll hear in this truly wonderful chat are Rowe's: new in-progress bookthoughts on the adequacies and inadequacies of permaculture issue with most permaculture being taught to middle class westernerswork in refugee camps and other largely invisible margins which are rapidly growingthoughts on designing yourself into your place vs designing yourself out of overseas places you workchapter on a permaculture approach to the oceansthoughts on decolonisation and re-indigenisingthoughts on the essence of permaculture Please note after our chat Rowe asked if I would please share this link about supporting a permaculture project addressing the Humanitarian Crisis after the burning of the Moria Camp on the island of Lesbos. Image source Rowe also mentioned Milkwood's Permaculture Living Skills course which you can check out here. Photo from a project in Lesvos Rowe was part of

Continuing our recent focus, this episode shares a lively chat with my friend and fellow decision-making innovator Javan Bernakevitch. For several years we've been catching up regularly to talk shop and explore what's alive for us with respect to our shared interest in values-based or holistic decision making. This time we hit record to explore the difference between procedures with steps and processes with principles. How clear are you on the difference? Take a listen to find out! Find more episodes on Holistic Decision Making hereLearn more about Javan's excellent work here and watch his Facing Fire film hereFind out more about my online courses in Holistic Decision Making hereCheck this link in a week or so to learn more about the David Holmgren Reading Landscape Documentary projectCheck out the site of April-Sampson Kelly (whose voice makes an all-too-brief appearance) hereBecome a patron of Making Permaculture Stronger here to access powerful permaculture design resources and enable the creation of more content like this I hope you enjoy our holistic decision making shop talk, bless all you fathers out there (it is father's day in my part of the world), and catch you in the next episode.

This episode is the continuation and completion of the last episode where I started an interactive rolling review of a holistic context for a permaculture design business. Here we follow through and finish the first pass of Porvenir Design's Holistic Context with owner-directors Scott Gallant and Sam Kenworthy. To tie in with our current focus, by the way, I have created an online course on Holistic Decision Making starting September 4th, 2020. This course will educate and resource participants to develop their own holistic contexts and start making decisions aligned with that context. There is also the opportunity to attend a PDC with Porvenir Design in either 2020 or 2021. If you are interested in this topic you might also want to listen to my introduction to Holistic Decision Making in episode 40 and my recent interview with Allan Savory. You can also catch up on my prior conversation with Scott on the practical and professional realities of a more living design process in episode 41 and episode 42. Some quotes from this episode Whether you grow the business or shrink the business, that’s a decision, not a quality of life statement. - Dan The entire job (of enabling actions) is to make the quality of life statements true. You know, what do we need to be doing or producing to make them true. One point I’ll make is whenever I do this I’ll make it very clear which enabling actions are attached to which quality of life statements. Even though sometimes one enabling action will serve more than one quality of life statement. I find that really helpful particularly later on when you’re auditing and you’re realising, oh right now this quality of life statement is the least true, so what are we going to do about it? That’s our focus for the next six weeks is to make that more true and then move on to the one that now is least true. Let’s go straight to the enabling actions in service of that and find out what’s wrong there, what’s happening there, what we can change. - Dan When I first got into this I dove really deep into it and really read Savory’s book very closely, workshops and all that. And where I got to with the ‘resource base’ is that he construes it in terms of how things need to be 10, 20, 100, 200 years into the future, socially, on the land. As I tried to work with that, what I found that it directly connected to enabling actions. That’s their job for me. So you’ve got your purpose - where you’re heading, you’ve got the quality of life statements - the core things you need to feel are true along the way if you are getting quality out of being involved and want to stay involved, and then you’ve got the enabling actions - things you need to be doing day by day, week by week, in order to keep those quality of life statements true, which if they’re true, that enables you to actually deliver on your statement of purpose. The future resource base does look into the future, and it’s says, what are the resources that you need to be in place in order to do these enabling actions. What are the enabling actions, what resources are they dependant on, and how do those need to…I think of them as variables. If the key future resource base variable diminishes over time, a classic one in any business is the goodwill of your customers, if that’s going downhill over time at some point you don’t have a business anymore. So it’s one of the core resources you depend on into the future to continue operating. - Dan This is where we put relationships with suppliers. They are in a certain state. And if the quality of our relationship with the people who supply the timber we make our veg beds out of or even the screws and bolts that we bolt them together with or whatever, if those relationships are going down hill, at some point they will say screw you, and give the timber to someone else instead. These are core resources that we depend on to do what we do and we want to bring our conscious attention to them so ...

This interview will show you what working on a holistic context looks like and how you could do this for yourself, your family, or your permaculture project or enterprise. Scott Gallant and Sam Kenworthy from Porvenir Design in Central America have recently created a holistic context for their business. In this episode I review it with them and support them to evolve it further. Here you'll get a better feel for applying what we learned from Allan Savory in the previous episode on Permaculture and Holistic Management. The whole Holistic Context idea comes from Allan. If you are interested in this topic you might want to listen to my introduction to Holistic Decision Making in episode 40. You can also catch up on my prior conversation with Scott on the practical and professional realities of a more living design process in episode 41 and episode 42. In conjunction with this episode, I have also created an online course on Holistic Decision Making starting September 4th, 2020. This course will educate and resource participants to develop their own holistic contexts and start making decisions aligned with that context. Scott Gallant and Sam Kenworthy Setting a Focus for the conversation: The Task Cycle Framework After hearing a little something of Sam's backstory, I started by introducing the Task Cycle Framework to clarify our focus for the episode. I learned about this framework from Carol Sanford and the Regenesis folk. Among other things, this framework invites you think through: The taskThe purpose of the taskThe products that need to be produced to pursue that purposeThe processes that will generate those products In this case, the task was reviewing Porvenir Design's Holistic Context as a podcast episode. As for the task's purpose, what came up for me (and resonated for Scott and Sam) was: We are recording this interview to review your holistic context and potentially help you increase its depth, clarity and decision making power...…in a way that supports Porvenir design’s vitality, viability, and capacity to evolve…..so that you and your business are becoming an increasing potent agent of regeneration in Costa Rica and beyond. The main product was a tight, focused podcast episode that adds value to Porvenir design and to our listeners in terms of resourcing them to do this kind of work for themselves. Then the process we used was, after some scene setting, slowly working our way through the Porvenir context, reflecting on each bit for as long as we need. In addition to going through the task cycle, Dan brought a personal aim to the conversation of evoking reflection and sharing experience more than providing answers. Porvenir Design's Holistic Context Thanks to Scott and Sam for letting me reproduce the version of their context they have shared publicly in this blog post. A Holistic Context for an entity (such as a business) created for a specific reason comprises: a statement of purposequality of life statementswhat Savory calls forms of production and Dan calls enabling actionsa future resource base Porvenir Design's Statement of Purpose: Why was this entity created? Porvenir Design exists to help clients achieve their goals within the context of tropical land planning and management and to provide meaningful livelihood for its employees. Some snippets from our conversation about Porvenir Design's Statement of Purpose On a meaningful livelihood..."One of the things I sometimes struggle with, with the holistic context, in the (purpose) statement and everything that flows from it, is when are we making decisions to regenerate landscapes and all these things that get us super excited and that we love doing everyday. We also formed it to buy a little piece of land ourselves and have the highest quality of life that we can live, and so I always see those two things and wonder how the rest of our statements flow from there and if there is any tension.

In this very special episode, I enjoy an in-depth conversation with Allan Savory, originator of Holistic Management, President of the Savory Institute and Director of the Africa Centre for Holistic Management. While Allan is best known for his work on holistic planned grazing, I was especially excited to dive into the decision making framework at holistic management's core and its implications for permaculture. This is our conversation at a glance. How we start the process of managing holistically when commencing new projectsMoving from reductionist to holistic management is moving from a reactive to a proactive orientationThe process of defining what important isThe relationship between holistic management and permacultureAddressing complexity with a holistic frameworkBeyond thinking holistically to managing holisticallyThe challenge with making holistic management stickThe paradigm shifts required to manage complexityThe individual leadership to inspire and the institutional scale of holistic management we need for meaningful changeHolistic management and regenerative agriculture and businessHope for the future Dan Palmer & Allan Savory - with thanks to the Savory Institute for creating this image. Here's a link to a recent episode on how I've been practicing holistic decision making, here's an article I wrote about it (back in 2014), and below is the full transcript of our conversation (my questions italicised). How we start the process of managing holistically when commencing new projects Allan thanks so much for this conversation. I’d love to start with the deep relevance of managing holistically for permaculture designers, and in particular, how we start the process of managing holistically when commencing new projects. Where us permaculture designers regularly encounter clients who, as soon as we ask them what they'd like our help toward, bombard us with a long list of goals or objectives. "We want a pond and ducks and an orchard and a vegetable garden and a campsite and a meditation platform and and and." Could you please explain what it means to engage clients on a deeper level than the goals they present us with, how we might go about this in practice, and how important this is if we aspire to be managing holistically?    Sure, let’s see if I can help Dan. You could either start by explaining what the reductionist management of humans is and how essential it is to manage holistically.  That is what is needed if Permaculture (or any agriculture) is to be regenerative. And that is essential if civilization is to survive now facing global desertification and climate change, in which agriculture is playing as large (maybe larger) role than coal and oil.  That gets boring in today’s short attention span and people’s eyes glaze over. So the best way if there has been no training in how to manage holistically is to simply do it. Everyone just wants to be told what to do and how to do it – it is almost impossible I find to stop farmers just wanting to know what to do and to help them decide how to make those decisions, that they don’t want to hear about.  Allan just tell me what to do!  I don’t want to hear about reductionist management and how it is the single cause of almost all that ails us, including desertification and climate change! So the best way if there has been no training in how to manage holistically is to simply do it.  Think trying to explain how to ride a bike vs having a bike and just starting to ride it.  The more you explain how to ride a bike, the more confusing it gets, but a person simply riding a bike gets it in a day.  So, assume I am advising or helping you Dan the farmer.  I would simply say, Dan let’s not talk about your crops, orchard, ducks, cattle or whatever until we can both understand the context in which you are deciding what to do.  What are you managing here? I gather you Dan are making all decisions. Does anyone else make any management decisions?

In this episode I catch up with Simon Marshall after our prior conversation about where he wanted to take his permaculture design practice back in Episodes 37 and 38. It is quite amazing how much of what he was aspiring toward then has manifested itself in the meantime, and along the way we discuss: The complexities of permaculture process and project facilitation when many stakeholders are involvedThe challenge of breaking the centre of gravity of design projects out of an arrest disorder paradigm towards regenerating lifeThe idea of mental energies at the vital, automatic, sensitive and conscious levels (ah la Carol Sanford)Using inner aims to become conscious and transform process outcomesMuch else! I also reflect a little on the wild times we're in at the start and share a project update at the end. To summarise the update: Allan Savory will be our next guest, followed in the subsequent episode by a review of Scott and Sam from Porvenir design's holistic contextSeveral interviews with David Holmgren sharing his permaculture design process journey are the plan after that which will feed right into Phase Two's conversation about regenerating permaculture by going back to its originating impulseI'm in discussions with David Holmgren about the taking our course on Advanced Permaculture Design Process onlineThe first MPS book creation process is gathering momentum I share some flavours of the recent poll resultsThe regular gathering of project supporters is going strong as we all depend our design process literacy in theory and practice together. Learn more on the project patreon page.

In this episode my good friend Javan Kerby Bernakevitch from All Points Design in Canada interviews me about the various projects I am and have been part of, including permablitz, Very Edible Gardens, Holistic Decision Making, Living Design Process, and of course this one - Making Permaculture Stronger. Initially recorded for Javan's youtube channel, thanks Javan for permission to share it here too.

This episode is a conversation with Emma Morris from Aotearoa New Zealand who fills us in on the last several chapters of her learning journey around regenerative education practices. It's a great chat and I can't wait to hear how the learning centre project Emma is involved in unfolds from here. You can find an introductory overview of the project here, and sign up for the project newsletter here. The Learning Framework Emma and colleagues have arrived at. Close-up of the middle section Another awesome project graphic I found - love it!

The idea for this this episode came to me about 20 minutes before I hit record. I share a second pass on a reflection process I'd just finished applying to Making Permaculture Stronger. It is all based on stuff from Carol Sanford's The Regenerative Life book, a series of free morning meetings she recently ran, and stuff I've learned by being part of one of her Seed Communities. I'd be tickled if you'd drop me a line letting me know how this episode landed for you. Oh yes, if you're curious how I got started with Carol Sanford's stuff, it all started with this unforgettably disruptive experience right here.

Photo from http://lierlouandthevillage.org/ With thanks to Anna Lenna for a second great chat - check out our first chat here. Here is Anna Lena's summary of our exchange from here: Dan, founder of Living Design Process from Australia and I are speaking about empty houses in the countryside and how performance art speaks to spontaneous design processes.In our conversation we are strolling through the landscapes of our recent experiences and touch on the conundrum of empty yet unavailable houses in Balaguier and the question how to enliven rural abandoned areas. Could some of these empty places host young people who are drawn to bring life and land-based experiments to the countryside? Especially in times of confinement, many summer house owners cannot come – how to begin a dialogue with house owners that could host other activities in their empty places?Dan shares how many of the people he works with are asking deep fundamental questions as part of the Covid time. Questions rise anew, like: “What am I doing with my life or/and with my land?”. In one of his projects Dan works on this question with two performance artists and found that the spirit of alive improvisation is something that deeply resembles his design processes. In the conversation we explore how the process of creating place and dance are resembling each other in their open-ended, responsive nature. Performance arts as well as living design are practices of “being present and alive and in the moment, listening deeply and letting each next move emerge in real time”, as Dan says. Here's a link to Lierlou and the Village – the name of the project Anna-Lena is part of. And here's the actual village: Photo from http://lierlouandthevillage.org/ Finally, here's is a link to that exchange with Han that Dan mentions regarding the dance and design process connection.

Scott Gallant The second half of my initial conversation with Scott Gallant from Porvenir Design where Scott asks me questions about my facilitatory approach to professional design consultancy work. Enjoy and if you missed episode 41 I'd recommend checking that out first. Also a heads up that in my next chat with Scott we'll be reviewing Porvenir Design's Holistic Context you can check out in advance here.

I was delighted when Scott Gallant from Porvenir Design emailed me earlier in the year: Hi Dan,I wanted to reach out and introduce myself after having (finally!) stumbled upon the MPS project. I just wrapped up listening to the Phase 2 podcast and I am all in!A quick jot about myself, my name is Scott Gallant and I am a permaculture designer and educator based in Costa Rica. I've been deep in this field for 10 years, 8 of which were spent managing a farm and building out my curriculum at a well regarded site called Rancho Mastatal. In the last few years I've been full time in the design/install business here in Latin America with my firm, Porvenir Design. Tropical agroforestry and permaculture education are really my burgeoning areas of expertise. I've had the chance to lead or co-teach 14 PDCs and countless short courses, and have been fortunate enough to be interviewed for a number of podcasts over the last few years. I set this scene to let you know that I am all in, although I resonate deeply with your message of approaching permaculture from a skeptics background.For the last few years I've been obsessed with the pedagogy of teaching PDCs and the process of design in my client based work. Incrementally, and sometimes abruptly, I tweak these process. I've also felt quite surprised by the lack of conversations around these topics and have constantly been pulled toward constructive critiques of permaculture. Clearly, the bubble of permaculture in Central America and perhaps to some degree North America has not been invaded by the MPS project.So, first, thank you for your work. It is essential to, well, making permaculture stronger. Second, I'm interested in getting more involved. I'm slowly making my way through some past posts and will continue to do so over the weeks ahead. If you have any suggestions for involvement they are much appreciated. And third, I am quite interested in mentorship in the field of professional design and education. At the full peak age of 33, I find myself seeking mentorship in order to continue helping students and clients truly dive into the permaculture domain with confidence. In this community that you've formed, are there any obvious routes for some form of mentorhsip?Apologies for the long message. Love the work and looking forward to dipping in.Scott Gallant In his second email Scott continued: As I've been listening I am really quite curious to learn more about how folks actually implement these ideas with clients, how this changes the teaching within a PDC for inspired instructors, etc. I have a client visit in Puerto Rico soon; outcome will be a concept plan for bringing back to life the family farm and converting an old church on the property into some public facing bar/restaurant/distillery.  The outcome is far from a detailed master plan, but rather will involve a day of visioning/goal setting with stakeholders, two days on the site, and then creating a planning document that provides broad patterns for access, land use suitability, water/soil/plant systems, and recommendations on phasing, species, further resources, etc. I give you this context, because I am most interested in using this project to trial out some of these new ideas from MPS, BUT the actual action of, say, "unfolding the potential of a site's essence" or "starting from a whole" alludes me a bit. Part of me believe this deeper ability can only be brought forth through years of practice/mentorship and such. Part of me wonders if this is more or less what I already do with clients.I would love to brainstorm how to take what others and myself do now as professional designers/installers and apply these ideas to go from good to great. When I read the comments I don't see too much where others are saying, "Wow, I've been doing this upside down and need to completely change my practice." It seems like folks are on the same page theoretically, but for professional permaculture designers and educators,

VEG's context Hey all so today I share a little bit about holistic decision making - the whole-oriented decision making practice I have adapted and evolved from Allan Savory's Holistic Management decision making framework. I've had a bunch of folk requesting more info about this lately and I'm feeling it very relevant to this historical moment when many of us are making big decisions about the shape of our lives and enterprises moving out of the first wave of coronavirus. Hope is helpful - happy to share more on this in due course if so and I'm also running a free two-hour webinar about this stuff on May 30, 2020 you can learn about here. You can find more info here and there is a series of articles a bunch of people have found helpful here. Here's our family context which I refer to along with VEG's context above. Here's an old vid where Adam and I talk about the impact of this stuff on our business (during a workshop we had Darren Doherty come and run for us): https://vimeo.com/86850657 I mention and thanks Allan Savory during the chat and share how he is currently in crisis (holistic) management mode of the African Centre for Holistic Management in Zimbabwe. Visit the website here to learn more and donate. Here's what's up for him from his facebook page: I would like to thank those of you who have donated to support Africa Centre for Holistic Management, which we deeply appreciate. Due to the pandemic crisis Jody and I have had to assume the management role of ACHM. All income has stopped, and Victoria Falls hotels lie empty. We have done the best of holistic financial planning to survive at least 18 months till income might start flowing. Priorities are to save the people managing the land and wildlife and stopping the poaching that is ramping up as hungry people try to feed their families. We are feeding staff and paying monthly what little we can in very tight plan. And as usual things happen! Last night the elephants tore up our water pipes so replan!!Because we operate under a government rated as one of the most corrupt in the world and 600% inflation of the local virtual currency, we have had to install a new donate button to stop government and banks raiding donations. Now 100% donated gets to us to save the people, wildlife and all we hold dear. If you can support please go to front page at https://www.africacentreforholisticmanagement.org and every dollar will I assure you go a long way in this broken failed economy and help a lot of wildlife and poor people. https://youtu.be/kQGy0vxeL_k Allan Savory laying out aspects of the approach

Hey all. I am excited to be here trying out yet anther new experiment in making this project as accessible and practical and interesting as possible. You see I've recently started becoming friends with a group of graduates of Schumacher college. Mainly Anna Lena from France and Ahmed from Bahrain. Anna Lena and Ahmed initially reached out, having come across some of my stuff on Living Design Process online. They sensed resonance with their own inquiry into what they are calling dialogue with place. After attending one of their online gatherings, the resonance was confirmed, and we all felt potential in continuing to explore the obvious synergies. So we had this lovely emergent conversation just the other day where the idea emerged of checking in weekly and sharing for ten minutes or so what's alive in us relating to our our practical projects. Where I realised I could release my bit where I share about my design process adventures here. Potentially as a weekly sort of update. This fits in with the strong will I've been feeling toward starting to share more of this Living Design Process approach I've alluded to but haven't yet really dived into directly. https://youtu.be/XrP0i8JF2qA I'm not sure whether to use the audio episode format, the video format, or both, so I'll share both here and ask some of you what you reckon will work best moving forward. Also here is a that link to Lierlou and the Village - the name of the wonderful project Anna-Lena is part of. Thanks so much to Anna Lena for the chat and to Ahmed also for the way in which this all emerged.

This episode is the second half of the conversation started in Episode 37. In which permaculture designer Simon Marshall and I explore ways he can evolve his practice in desired directions (and I have some useful realisations about how I'll evolve my approach to this kind of conversation in future).

This episode marks new ground for this podcast. I share the start of what will become a several-episode conversation working with permaculture designer Simon Marshall. Simon reached out and asked if I'd help him explore ways we can evolve his practice in desired directions. In this episode we set the scene and in the next episode we'll dive right into the business at hand. I hope you enjoy this new direction for the podcast and huge thanks to Simon for being up for giving this a try. In this episode we set the scene and we'll get down to work proper in the next episode. You can visit Simon's existing website here and here are some design illustrations he shares in the chat (and that I reference there by image number). Image One Err, let's call this a continuation of Image One Image Two Image Three

I'm so happy to know Bill Reed (from Regenesis Group) and to have him back on the show for the second time I've had someone on for the third time. If you listened to either of the prior chats you already know you're in for a treat. Thanks again Bill and I'm already looking forward to interview number four.

Jason Gerhardt teaching Such a pleasure to reconnect and get back in resonance with Jason after quite a while in this free-flowing conversation. We talk the current pandemic, ways of responding individually and collectively, and continue our themes around design process and story of people/place. Hope you enjoy it as much as I did and thanks so much for the comment from permaculturalist Wesley Rowe that listening to this is "like peering in on conversations I have with friends" :-).

In this episode I reflect on how the four levels of paradigm Carol Sanford shared in episode 33 apply both to my experience of navigating the coronavirus crisis and to permaculture as a whole. Hope you get something out of this and here's to our collaborative evolution toward regenerating life together. A few links: Carol Sanford's siteBuy the Regenerative LifeThe video of Chris Martenson from Peak Prosperity that I refer to in the chatThe Making Permaculture Stronger patreon page

Carol Sanford mid-sentence during this episode... Such a deep honour to have Carol Sanford return to the show after the wild ride that was episode nineteen. In this episode Carol takes us deep into one of her living systems frameworks - that of the four paradigms she calls value return, arrest disorder, do good, and regenerate life. This framework has challenging implications for permaculture, and as I explain I am excited with the clarity I believe this framework can bring to our individual and collective efforts to navigate the current global coronavirus pandemic. I will be using the platform of this podcast to look at the current situation through a process lens for the foreseeable future. All other bets are off for now. Check out Carol's website here, her new book The Regenerative Life here, her seed communities here, and the Deep Pacific Change Agent Community (that I am part of) here. The white paper she mentioned can be read in a series starting here, and she has a Regenerative Paradigm website too. Stay well and until soon. I will endeavour to keep these podcasts coming from my family's mini permaculture refuge (that has all been created within the last three weeks). I'm also happy to publish the video of this chat with Carol but I'll let one or two of you say you'd like that before I make the effort :-). What came in the post today - hooray! Snippet from page 162 - hoot hoot!

Here we are. Hovering on the cusp of Phase Two of this project. Toward the end of 2019, we set the scene by way of chopping down a certain tree. We then disappeared for a while.1 We took a breath. We pondered. We came back. It is time to start navigating the path ahead, starting right here, right now. Before we take an actual step, however, let us metamorphose into birds and catch an updraft to consider relevant patterns from up high. In other words, we'll zoom out to get a sense of some of the things we'd like to make true of our subsequent steps forward. Toward this end, I ask you to bear with me as I explore a fresh framework for thinking about different ways of relating to permaculture as design. This arose after a previous framework led me to the question of "what is a community of practice, anyway?" Looking up that phrase led me first to the distinction between a community of practice and a community of interest and second to the related notion of a community of inquiry. Together, these three then came together in my mind to generate a further framework.2 Communities of Interest, Practice and Inquiry There is a group of folk in the world that are interested in permaculture design. Within this group there are folk who are not only interested in but who practice permaculture design. Within this practicing group there are in turn folk who consciously inquire into permaculture design. Who do research and experiments and make the results available to other inquirers as well as those practicing without inquiring or interested without practicing. I'm not fussed about the exact lines of differentiation between these three nested layers. The lines can remain somewhat fuzzy so long as you agree that it is possible to draw the lines.3 The point is that it is possible to be interested in permaculture design without practicing it, and it is possible to practice permaculture design without (consciously and explicitly) inquiring into the way of designing that you have learned to use and are using. None of these are good or bad, better or worse. They are options. Now. Let us move from the idea of groups or sets to groups that have internal connectivity, whether online, offline, or both. Here, we move from groups to communities. As I'm guessing any permaculturalist knows, communities are where it's at. From here on as I develop this diagram I am always talking about communities, not just sets of individuals. I personally am part of a large community of folk interested in permaculture design, a smallish community of colleagues who go beyond interest to practice permaculture design, and a tiny community of colleagues who go beyond practice to consciously inquire into permaculture design.4 Overall Ratios, Flows, Blockages and Orbits We can now consider the overall flows, ratios, blockages and orbits between and within the three kinds of communities. Along the way I'll start laying out what this means for Phase Two of this project. Flows and Ratios The above diagrams are not to scale, and numbers of people within each of these three nested community types obviously fluctuate. As far as flows go, the way folk become permaculture design practitioners is via interest. The way folk become researchers or inquirers, surely, is as a result of questions that arise within their practice. Where, ideally at least, the findings then move back out through the other communities, and in some cases even out into the beyond-permaculture community and culture.5 Indeed permaculture itself was birthed from a two-person community of intense interest then practice and inquiry that lasted a couple of years and catalysed huge waves of interest and in some cases practice in others. The following diagram captures this sense of overall flows in a very simplified, limited way. The black arrows represent people transitioning into communities at each of the three levels,

That's right, the February 2020 issue of Permaculture Design Magazine features an article by my good self on the topic of generative transformation (and the below chart). Adapted from a series of past posts here on Making Permaculture Stronger, editor Rhonda Baird invited a contribution and this topic felt like a natural fit with the episode's focus on emergent design. I can't wait to get my hands on the whole issue and if you feel the same way go order a copy here or subscribe and support their great service to the permaculture community. As a prelude to this project picking itself back up again after an unexpectedly long summer hibernation (on the surface at least!), I share both a PDF of the article as it appeared in the mag and I've recorded a podcast episode where I read the article out for your listening pleasure. I also include Rhonda Baird's excellent opening comments from the issue's editorial: Emergent design was one of the leading takeaways for me from our issue exploring Design Process (Permaculture Design #108). Most teachers, according to my understanding, approach the design process as a static, linear one which requires the designer to see and know all things from original principles—implementing them with flawless perfection. The resulting imprint of our imagination onto reality might make Plato proud, but it probably doesn’t happen very often in reality. Recognizing and valuing the fluid, responsive, and messy reality of design and implementation is crucially important. Perhaps it is so important because it requires us to be humble and question our assumptions. But recognizing this messy reality also helps students and clients proceed by accepting there will be valuable mo- ments for feedback and by making adjustments along the way. Adaptability and imaginative response are wonderful foundations for survival and sustainability. More to the point, emergent design allows us to find the growing edge of complex systems and respond ap- propriately. We talk about the concept of “the edge is where the action is.” Permaculturists know the capacity to identify and engage that edge in our rapidly changing world is essential to our success in pushing systems in a positive, life-affirming direction. The more experience we have in design and implementation, the more intuitive our processes become so that design takes less time and realizes more success. How can we work together to ensure others recognize the value of this work? Rhonda Baird - opening words of editorial for issue #115 of the Permaculture Design Magazine Enjoy and catch you very soon with much sharing about the emerging intentions this project will be generatively transforming itself toward in the coming months :-).

In our first ever conversation, Ben Haggard of Regenesis Group shares his history with and perspective on permaculture. This episode catalysed waves of reflection that are blowing my mind. Yes, I was struck with the profound clarity and depth of what Ben shared. Then the sheer resonance of the relevance to exactly where Making Permaculture Stronger is at - well that pretty much knocked me off my seat. You could say I'm still climbing back up off the floor :-). I don't know about you, dear listener/reader, but I have the real sense that this conversation is itself a nodal intervention in Making Permaculture Stronger's ongoing evolution. It is like I can feel the energy shifting and growing and generatively transforming throughout my entire being and hence the being of this project. New levels of Will are awakening. I mean I use the terms potential and development (who doesn't) and before this chat I would have said I had a fairly clear, coherent grasp on what they are. Not any more. I was almost dazzled by the clarity Ben gives these terms in a way that resonates deep in my bones. Then, when he spoke about the idea of permaculture's originating impulse, well, game over. Let me pen a few reflections on each. Potential After decades of experience and reflection in collaboration with a tight-knit community of practice, Ben has reached a fascinating perspective on what potential is. As I understand him, he sees the potential (or the possible contribution) of something as existing in the tension between that thing's deep, enduring, inherent character and the ever-changing reality of the context in which it is nested and in particular what this context calls for in this particular "historical and evolutionary moment." To identify the potential of a farm, a garden, a person, a family, a business, an organisation, a blog project, we need to ask: what is the unique character of this being? thenwhat is currently called for in the immediate, local, and greater wholes it is nested within?, andwhat could happen here that would harmonise these two things? Which brings us to... Development Clearly, potential often remains latent. For Ben, development is then the practice of actually revealing and manifesting the potential inherent in something, which involves removing anything in the way and becoming more and more relevant and valuable to context. Originating Impulse When Ben first mentioned this phrase late in our chat, I knew immediately it was going to inform my very next steps with Making Permaculture Stronger. So take this as a sneak preview where I'd invite you to start sitting in the space of this all-important question: what was permaculture's originating impulse? Please don't rush - take your time with this - there will be space to chime in with what arises for you very soon. One thing here I'd invite if you come across any sound bites or text that speaks of this originating impulse to you, especially if from the early days of permaculture, please send it through to me and I may well include it in the upcoming post. Other Notable Threads what Ben said about permaculture's usual initiation/conversion experiences and how these can make it very difficult to bring the ideas into one's existing ways of working I think was well worth further exploration. I mention it here as a reminder to come back to this in future as appropriate. Any thoughts?This idea of the word place as a rare world in English in that it includes people, landscape etc etc...the idea that if you can be with a person or other living entity as it is, you are taking it as whole (as opposed to our default pattern of fragmenting things by paying attention to their various attributes) Links to Stuff Ben is involved in Visit Regenesis Group here.Learn about the Regenerative Practitioner Training here.Learn about the book Ben wrote with Pamela Mang here (Regenerative Development & Design: A Framework for Evolving ...

This episode shares the continuation of the conversation Jason Gerhardt and I started in Episode 25. While we refer back to the below framework I was playing around with at the time we mainly explore drawing and mapping in relation to permaculture design as well as topics around certification, not needing permission, and more. Oh yeah at the start I refer back to this post where I explore generative transformation as an attitude not something dogmatic as regards to map or not to map. Jason directs the USA’s Permaculture Institute and Real Earth Design and I just love being in touch with him and having him as a colleague in this work and these adventures. Stay tuned for much deeply exciting stuff in the pipeline. Phase Two is about to kick in big time and I am going to need you to get involved. Finally here's the place to voluntarily donate some of your hard-earned cash to this project. It makes a massive, huge difference even if just $1 per month so thanks if you even consider it let alone actually do it :-). For those of you interested in joining the new online community that meets every six weeks then join at the $10 tier or get in touch via the contact page to explore other options (as in, if you can't afford it or whatever, then let's figure something out!).