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PARENTAL DISCLAIMER: This episode takes a somewhat detailed look at alleged atrocities committed against children. Listener discretion is heavily advised.In this episode we examine the Pizzagate conspiracy and its connection to Jeffrey Epstein. May the Lord grant justice to the little children in His world.Love Haunted Cosmos? Get access to our exclusive show, The Dusty Tome, early ad-free access to main episodes and monthly Livestreams, by becoming a patron of the show: https://www.patreon.com/c/HauntedCosmosThis episode is sponsored by: Indigo Sundries Soap Company - Go to http://indigosundriessoap.com and use code HAUNTEDCOSMOS for 10% off your whole order!Nutricel is making supplements featuring methylene blue that fuel your brain with all day energy. You can get 13% off using code NCP. Visit: nutricel.store/pages/ncpJake Muller Adventures is an immersive, mysterious, and engaging audio drama. Use code "HAUNTED" to claim 10% off all digital downloads. https://www.jakemulleradventures.com/haunted Talk to Josh at Volenté Creative to get help you with your branding and marketing: https://volentecreative.com/ncpRose Solutions provides custom website design, website hosting, and website security. Visit Cosmoswebsites.comGray Toad Tallow. Visit their website here and use COSMOS15 at checkout for 15% off your order. https://graytoadtallow.com/Stonecrop Wealth Advisors! Go to this link to check out their special offers to Haunted Cosmos listeners today. https://stonecropadvisors.com/hauntedcosmosDrain My Lawn is providing expert, high-quality drainage solutions that protect properties and ensure lasting peace of mind to the people in Charlotte, NC: Visit drainmylawn.com/haunted for 5% off any serviceBuy the Haunted Cosmos book: https://www.newchristendompress.com/cosmos PS: It's also available as an audiobook!Support the show
Send us a text!After the Industrial Revolution, the family started to disintegrate. That trend only accelerated with the Sexual Revolution of the 1960s, so that today Christian families are wondering how to put all the pieces back together.In this episode, we talk with Adam Madden, author of the new book from New Christendom Press, “The Productive Household,” about how parents can reclaim this lost terrain.https://www.newchristendompress.com/store/p/the-productive-housholdJoin us at the New Christendom Press conference, The War for Normal, this June 11-14 in Ogden, Utah. https://thewarfornormal.com/Did you know supporters of the show get ad-free video and audio episodes delivered early and access to our patron exclusive show the After Hours and interactive live streams with Eric and Brian? https://www.patreon.com/thekingshallSupport Brian's new album - https://www.briansauve.com/shortyearsThis episode is sponsored by: KeepwisePartners.com your partner for small business finance and accounting. Call Derrick Taylor at 781-680-8000 to schedule a free consultation. https://keepwise.partners/Armored Republic: Making Tools of Liberty for the defense of every free man's God-given rights - Text JOIN to 88027 or visit: https://www.ar500armor.com/ Talk to Joe Garrisi about managing your wealth with Backwards Planning Financial. https://backwardsplanningfinancial.com/Christian business owners go to reformedbusinessalliance.com/ncp and use code NCP to claim your free month. Book your free strategy call at https://www.bonifacebusiness.com/ Invest in your business, your family, and your future go to http://Appalachiadigital.com/ncp to book a strategy call.Go to DeusVultRebinding.com and use code KINGSHALL for 15% off on your bespoke BibleSupport the show:https://www.patreon.com/thekingshall Support the show:https://www.patreon.com/thekingshall
It is one of the most well-documented and credible cases of a haunting known to man. Join us in this episode of Haunted Cosmos as we take a close look at the Enfield Poltergeist.Love Haunted Cosmos? Get access to our exclusive show, The Dusty Tome, early ad-free access to main episodes and monthly AMA's with our co-host, Ben Garrett, by becoming a patron of the show: https://www.patreon.com/c/HauntedCosmosThis episode is sponsored by: Indigo Sundries Soap Company - Go to http://indigosundriessoap.com and use code HAUNTEDCOSMOS for 10% off your whole order!Nutricel is making supplements featuring methylene blue that fuel your brain with all day energy. You can get 13% off using code NCP. Visit: nutricel.store/pages/ncpJake Muller Adventures is an immersive, mysterious, and engaging audio drama. Use code "HAUNTED" to claim 10% off all digital downloads. https://www.jakemulleradventures.com/haunted Talk to Josh at Volenté Creative to get help you with your branding and marketing: https://volentecreative.com/ncpArmored Republic: Making Tools of Liberty for the defense of every free man's God-given rights - Text JOIN to 88027 or visit: https://www.ar500armor.com/ Gray Toad Tallow. Visit their website here and use COSMOS15 at checkout for 15% off your order. https://graytoadtallow.com/Stonecrop Wealth Advisors! Go to this link to check out their special offers to Haunted Cosmos listeners today. https://stonecropadvisors.com/hauntedcosmosDrain My Lawn is providing expert, high-quality drainage solutions that protect properties and ensure lasting peace of mind to the people in Charlotte, NC: Visit drainmylawn.com/haunted for 5% off any serviceBuy the Haunted Cosmos book: https://www.newchristendompress.com/cosmos PS: It's also available as an audiobook!Support the show
Send us a text!William built a dynasty that has lasted more than 400 years and shaped the face of a nation. In the process, his sons carried on the work of the Reformation in the Netherlands. It required wealth, political savvy, and God's kindness.In this episode, we'll talk about building wealth and nations for the sake of a Protestant Christendom. We're joined by pastor David Reece to talk about dynastic legacy building in today's world.Join us at the New Christendom Press conference, The War for Normal, this June 11-14 in Ogden, Utah. https://thewarfornormal.com/Did you know supporters of the show get ad-free video and audio episodes delivered early and access to our patron exclusive show the After Hours and interactive live streams with Eric and Brian? https://www.patreon.com/thekingshallSupport Brian's new album - https://www.briansauve.com/shortyearsThis episode is sponsored by: KeepwisePartners.com your partner for small business finance and accounting. Call Derrick Taylor at 781-680-8000 to schedule a free consultation. https://keepwise.partners/Armored Republic: Making Tools of Liberty for the defense of every free man's God-given rights - Text JOIN to 88027 or visit: https://www.ar500armor.com/ Talk to Joe Garrisi about managing your wealth with Backwards Planning Financial. https://backwardsplanningfinancial.com/Christian business owners go to reformedbusinessalliance.com/ncp and use code NCP to claim your free month. Book your free strategy call at https://www.bonifacebusiness.com/ Invest in your business, your family, and your future go to http://Appalachiadigital.com/ncp to book a strategy call.Go to DeusVultRebinding.com and use code KINGSHALL for 15% off on your bespoke Bible Support the show:https://www.patreon.com/thekingshall
Tate is joined by Nashville Collegiate Prep’s (NCP) head football coach, Jamie Graham, to discuss the opening of the new tuition-free charter school in Antioch. Spanning 82 acres, the campus features a turf football stadium and a full baseball field, serving a diverse student body. Coach Graham, a Nashville native and former athlete at White’s Creek and Vanderbilt, shares his vision for a program built on passion, discipline, and detail, with plans for the football team to compete in Division 1, Class 2A. He is joined at NCP by Athletic Director and basketball coach Devon Arnold, and the two aim to establish a new athletic and academic legacy at a school that just opened its doors in August 2025.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Send us a text!We sit down with CJay Engel to talk about the term he popularized, Heritage America, what it means, and what practical implications it has for us today. Along the way, we'll discuss Teddy Roosevelt, Calvin Coolidge, and what has happened to America because of Civil Rights and immigration reform. Finally, we'll talk about what Christian Nationalists should do about it.Join us at the New Christendom Press conference, The War for Normal, this June 11-14 in Ogden, Utah. https://thewarfornormal.com/Did you know supporters of the show get ad-free video and audio episodes delivered early and access to our patron exclusive show the After Hours and interactive live streams with Eric and Brian? https://www.patreon.com/thekingshallOur new books are now in stock and shipping. Save 15% if you order them together! Get them here!This episode is sponsored by: KeepwisePartners.com your partner for small business finance and accounting. Call Derrick Taylor at 781-680-8000 to schedule a free consultation. https://keepwise.partners/Armored Republic: Making Tools of Liberty for the defense of every free man's God-given rights - Text JOIN to 88027 or visit: https://www.ar500armor.com/ Talk to Joe Garrisi about managing your wealth with Backwards Planning Financial. https://backwardsplanningfinancial.com/Receive top-tier musical training from Bohnet Music Academy. https://www.bohnetma.com/ncpChristian business owners go to reformedbusinessalliance.com/ncp and use code NCP to claim your free month. Go to Mt Athos for sustainably sourced goat dairy protein and other performance products. Listeners of the show get a 20% discount site-wide with code "NCP20". https://athosperform.com/Book your free strategy call at https://www.bonifacebusiness.com/ Support the show:https://www.patreon.com/thekingshall
For all those who missed out on London, see you in Miami next week!Notion, the knowledge work decacorn, has been building AI tooling since before ChatGPT, with many hits from Q&A in 2023 and unified AI in 2024 and Meeting Notes in 2025. At the end of their last Make user conference, Ryan Nystrom teased Notion 3.0's Custom Agents - and they are finally embracing the Agent Lab playbook!Sarah Sachs and Simon Last of Notion join us for a deep dive into how Notion built Custom Agents, why it took years and multiple rebuilds to get right, and what it means to turn a productivity tool into an agent-native system of record for enterprise work.We go inside the product, engineering, evals, pricing, and org design decisions behind one of the most ambitious AI product efforts in software today — from early failed tool-calling experiments in 2022 to agent harnesses, progressive tool disclosure, meeting notes as data capture, and the long-term vision for software factories and agentic work.We discuss:* Sarah and Simon's path to launching Notion Custom Agents, and why the feature was rebuilt four or five times before it was ready for production* Why early agent attempts failed: no tool-calling standard, short context windows, unreliable models, and too much complexity exposed to the model* The “Agent Lab” thesis: not just wrapping a model, but understanding how people collaborate and building the right product system around frontier capabilities* How Notion thinks about roadmap timing: not swimming upstream against model limitations, but also building early enough that the product is ready when the models are* Why coding agents feel like the kernel of AGI, and how Notion is thinking about “software factories” made up of agents that spec, code, test, debug, review, and maintain codebases together* How Sarah runs AI engineering at Notion (“notes from Token Town”): objective-setting over idea ownership, low-ego teams comfortable deleting their own work, and a culture designed to swarm around fast-changing opportunities* The “Simon Vortex,” company hackathons, and why security gets pulled in early rather than late* How Notion organizes AI: core AI capabilities and infrastructure, product packaging teams, and a broader company mandate that every product surface must increasingly work for both humans and agents* Why prototypes have become much easier to build internally, and how “demos over memos” changes product development inside a tool the whole company already uses every day* Notion's eval philosophy: regression tests, launch-quality evals, and “frontier/headroom” evals that intentionally only pass ~30% of the time so the company can see where model capabilities are going* What a “Model Behavior Engineer” is, and why Notion treats eval writing, failure analysis, and model understanding as a distinct function rather than just software engineering* The changing role of software engineers in the age of coding agents, and why the new job looks less like typing code and more like supervising a rigorous outer system of agents, PRs, and verification loops* How the “software factory” should work: specs, self-verification, bug flows, subagents, and minimizing human intervention while preserving the invariants that matter* A live walkthrough of a Notion Custom Agent handling coworking space tenant applications by triaging email, enriching applicants with web search, and writing structured data into a Notion database* How agents compose inside Notion: shared databases as primitives, agents invoking other agents, “manager agents” supervising dozens of specialized agents, and memory implemented simply as pages and databases* Notion's take on MCP vs CLI: why Simon is bullish on CLI's self-debugging nature, where MCP still makes sense, and how Sarah thinks about capability, determinism, permissioning, and pricing alignment* The evolution of Notion's internal agent harness: from early JavaScript coding agents, to custom XML, to Markdown and SQL-like abstractions, to tool definitions, progressive disclosure, and a much shorter system prompt* Why Notion cares about teaching “the top of the class,” building for sophisticated operators rather than abstracting away too much capability for everyone* How agent setup works today: agents that can configure themselves, inspect their own failures, and edit their own instructions — with guardrails around permissions* How Notion prices Custom Agents: credits as an abstraction over tokens, model type, serving tier, web search, and future sandbox costs; why usage-based pricing was necessary; and how “auto” tries to match the right model to the right task* Why Notion is not eager to train a foundation model, where they do fine-tune and optimize today, and why retrieval/ranking is one of the most important investment areas as more searches come from agents rather than humans* Why Meeting Notes became one of Notion's strongest growth loops: not just as transcription, but as high-signal data capture that powers search, custom agents, follow-up workflows, and the broader system of record for company collaboration* Why Notion is more interested in being the place where collaboration data lives than in building hardware themselves — and how wearables or other capture devices may eventually feed into that systemSarah SachsLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahmsachsX: https://x.com/sarahmsachsSimon LastLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simon-last-41404140X: https://x.com/simonlastFull Video EpisodeTimestamps* 00:00:00 Introduction and launching Notion Custom Agents* 00:01:17 Why Notion rebuilt agents four or five times* 00:03:35 Building for where models are going, not just where they are* 00:05:32 The Agent Lab thesis, wrappers, and product intuition* 00:08:07 User journeys, leadership, and low-ego AI teams* 00:13:16 The Simon Vortex, hackathons, and bringing security in early* 00:16:39 Team structure, demos over memos, and building for agents* 00:20:25 Evals, Notion's Last Exam, and the Model Behavior Engineer role* 00:27:37 Evals as an agent harness and the changing role of software engineers* 00:30:42 The software factory: specs, verification, and agent workflows* 00:32:18 Live demo: a custom agent for coworking space applications* 00:35:08 Composing agents, manager agents, and memory as pages* 00:38:15 Notion Mail, Gmail, native integrations, and tools* 00:39:43 MCP vs CLI and the cost of capability* 00:44:13 When Notion uses MCP vs building its own integrations* 00:47:43 The history of Notion's agent harness rebuilds* 00:55:35 Power users, public tools, and the setup agent* 00:58:01 Self-fixing agents, permissions, and “flippy”* 01:01:13 Pricing, credits, and choosing the right model automatically* 01:09:01 Why Notion isn't training its own frontier model* 01:14:07 Retrieval, ranking, and search built for agents* 01:17:27 Meeting Notes as data capture and workflow automation* 01:21:18 Wearables, hardware, and Notion as the system of record* 01:23:45 OutroTranscript[00:00:00] Alessio: Hey everyone. Welcome to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio founder of Kernel Labs and I'm joined by swyx, editor of the Latent Space.[00:00:11] swyx: Hello. Hello. We're back in the beautiful studio that, uh, Alessio has set up for us with Simon and Sarah from Notion. Welcome.[00:00:18] Sarah Sachs: Thanks for having us.[00:00:19] Alessio: Thanks for having us. Yeah.[00:00:20] swyx: Congrats on the launch recently the custom agents, finally it's here. How's it feel?[00:00:26] Sarah Sachs: We ship things slowly. So it had been in Alpha for a little bit and at the point at which is it's an alpha, um, there's a group of people that are making sure it's ready for prod, and then there's a group of people working on the next thing.So sometimes some of these launches are a bit delayed satisfaction, so it's quite nice to remind yourself all the work you did because we do have a habit of like. Being two or three milestones ahead. Uh, just ‘cause you have to be, you know, you can't get complacent. Um, but it's been great that people understood how this is helpful.And I think that's just easier in general building AI tools today than it was two, three years ago. People kind of get it and so that user education, um, there's just, it was our most successful launch in terms of free trials and converting people and things like that. It was really successful, so yeah.But there's a lot to build.[00:01:12] swyx: Making it free for three months helps.[00:01:16] Sarah Sachs: Yep.[00:01:17] Simon Last: It was definitely super exciting for me because it's probably the fourth or fifth time that we rebuilt that.[00:01:22] swyx: Yes.[00:01:23] Simon Last: And I mean,[00:01:24] swyx: you've been building this since like 20, 22.[00:01:26] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean, like, it was even right when we got access to like GPT four in late 20 22, 1 of the first ideas we had is like, oh, okay, let's make an agent that I, we used the word assistant at the time, there wasn't really the word, the word agent yet, but, oh, we'll give an access to all the tools the notion can do, and then it, we run in the background like, like do work for us.And then we just tried that many times and it just. Was too early. Um,[00:01:48] swyx: I need to force you to like double click on that. What is too early? What didn't work?[00:01:52] Sarah Sachs: We were fine to, like, before function calling came out. We were trying to fine tune with the Frontier Labs and with fireworks, like a function calling model on notion functions.This is right when I joined. I joined because, um, we needed a manager as Simon was needed to be able to go on vacation. So, uh, that's, that's around when I joined, so you can speak much more to it.[00:02:11] Simon Last: Yeah, we did partnerships with both philanthropic and open AI at different times, uh, to try to, at the time the, I mean, when we first tried, there wasn't even a constant of like tools yet.We, we sort of designed our own like, like tool calling framework and then we tried to fine tune the models to, uh, to use it over multiple turns. Um, and because it, it didn't work well out the box, I think. Yeah. The models are just too dumb and the context thing was also way too short.[00:02:37] Alsesio: Yeah.[00:02:37] Simon Last: Um, and yeah, we just kind of banged our head against it for a long time.Uh, unfortunately it was always like, there was always like sort of. Glimmers that it was working, but um, it never felt quite robust enough to be like a useful, delightful thing. Um, until I would say, uh, the big unlock was probably like Sonic 3.6 or seven, uh, early last year. And that's when we started working on our agent, which we shipped last year.Um, and then, and then uh, uh, custom agents, kinda a similar capability and that, that one just took longer because we, we just wanted to get the reliability up a lot higher. ‘cause it's actually running in the background.[00:03:14] Sarah Sachs: And the product interface of like permissions and understanding, you know, this custom agent is shared in a Slack channel with X group of people and has access to documents that are surfaced to Y group of people.And the intersect experts, Y might not be whole. And so how do you build the product around making sure administrators understand that permissioning took multiple swings.[00:03:35] Alsesio: Everything is hard back at the end of the day. Yeah. I'm curious, like when the models are not working, how do you inform the product roadmap of like, okay, we should probably build, expecting the models to be better at some reasonable pace, but at the same time we need to, you know, you had a lot of customers in 2022.It's not like you were a new company or like no user base.[00:03:54] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean I think there's always the balance of, you know, like you want to be a GI pilled and thinking ahead and building for where things are going. Uh, but also you wanna be like shipping useful things. And so we always try to like, like keep a balance there.You know, we. We try to take clear, like a portfolio approach. You know, we're always working on multiple projects and, and we're always trying to work on, you know, maintaining things where that have already shipped, like, like shipping new things that are like eminently working well and make them really good.And, and then we wanna always have a few projects that are a little bit crazy. Um,[00:04:23] Alsesio: and what are the a GI peel projects that you have today? I'm curious about, uh, you don't have to share exactly what you're working on, but I'm curious what are things today that maybe in 18 months people will be like, oh, obviously this was gonna work[00:04:35] Sarah Sachs: 18 months.[00:04:37] Alsesio: Yeah, 18 months is, you know,[00:04:37] Sarah Sachs: it's a long time and Yeah. Yeah.[00:04:39] Simon Last: I mean, there's a number of things happening. I think one thing that's becoming more clear is I think like, like, uh, coding agents are the kernel of EGI, sort of, everything is a coding agent. Mm-hmm. I think that's, that's sort of one, one direction.Um, and then, yeah, the exciting thing about that is sort of your agent can sort of bootstrap its own software and capabilities and actually debug and maintain them. And so yeah, we're, we're, we're thinking a lot about that. And then, yeah, like, like another category of things that I'm, I'm really excited about is like, uh, we call the software factory also.People are using this, uh, this, this sort of word. Um, basically it just means can you create sort of like a, as automated as possible, a workflow for developing debugging. Mm-hmm. Merging, reviewing, and maintaining a code base and a service where there's a bunch of agents working together inside, and like, like how does that work?[00:05:28] Sarah Sachs: If you think back to your initial question, like, why did this take so long? I think something,[00:05:32] swyx: I didn't say that, but Yes. Okay. Go ahead.[00:05:34] Sarah Sachs: Why, what, what changed over the three and half years of trying[00:05:37] swyx: it? Exactly. Right. Because most people always say like, it didn't work yet. Then reasoning models came, then it worked.I was like, okay, let's go a little[00:05:43] Sarah Sachs: bit. That's, I mean, that's part of it, but I think the other part of it that I actually think is really what will set notion apart for every new capability is we have like. Two skills that are crucial when it comes to frontier capabilities. One is not letting yourself swim upstream.So like quickly realizing if you're just pressing against model capabilities versus not exposing the model to the right information, not having the right infrastructure set up. That and of itself is the skill of intuition. And the second is to see, okay, you're not swimming upstream. Which direction is the river flowing and what is like, how do we think ahead about the product and start building it even if it's not great yet, so that when it is there, we're ready for it.Right? And like those can sometimes feel like counterintuitive things. Like we can be trying to fine tune a tool calling model when they don't exist yet. And that the trick is to not do that for too long, but realize that there was something there. And we've had a lot of things which like, um, we're just like not swimming in the right direction with the streams.I think we had multiple versions of transcription before we got meeting notes, right? Oh, I gotta talk[00:06:39] swyx: about that. Yeah.[00:06:40] Sarah Sachs: Yeah. Um, and so. I, I, I think that like we, we really closely partner with the Frontier Labs on capabilities and we also have to have strong conviction on, as those capabilities move.Notion is about being the best place for you to collaborate and do your work. And how does that narrative change if the way that we work changes?Yeah.[00:06:58] swyx: Yeah. You told me you were a fan of the Agent Lab thesis, and this is, this is kind of it, right?[00:07:02] Sarah Sachs: Right. I show that thesis to so many candidates. Like I have it as like micro chrome autofill.Um, at this point, like it's one of my most visitations[00:07:10] swyx: because like, is this the, here's why you should work in notion and not open, open eye. I, it's like,[00:07:14] Sarah Sachs: here's, here's what's different about it.[00:07:16] swyx: Yeah.[00:07:16] Sarah Sachs: And here's why. It's not just a rapper. I actually think more and more people understand it's not just a wrapper.[00:07:21] swyx: Yeah.[00:07:22] Sarah Sachs: Um, and by the way, like in the beginning, parts of what we build are wrappers on functionality. That works well, of course, but that's not really the most, um. I would say that's not the product that, that drives revenue. And that's not necessarily always what users need.[00:07:35] swyx: I mean, you know, notion is the AWS wrapper, but like the, the wrapper is very beautiful and like very, very well polished.So[00:07:40] Sarah Sachs: like the analogy,[00:07:41] swyx: like[00:07:42] Sarah Sachs: the analogy that I've been coming back to his Datadog in AWS[00:07:45] swyx: Yeah.[00:07:46] Sarah Sachs: So, uh, Datadog could not exist with, without cloud storage. Right. That it's kind of fundamental that that works. Um, and AWS has like a CloudWatch product, but Datadog is an expert on understanding how people want observability on the products they launch.And we're experts in understanding how people wanna collaborate, and that's really where our expertise lies.[00:08:04] swyx: Totally.[00:08:04] Sarah Sachs: Um, regardless of the tools that we use,[00:08:07] Alsesio: I'm kind of curious how you think about implicit versus explicit expertise. I feel like Datadog is half and half implicit and explicit. It's like they understand across markets and industries what engineering teams usually look for.With notion, it's almost like more of the expertise is at the edge because you as a platform, you're like so horizontal that the end user is not really the same. Mm-hmm. Like with Datadog, the end user is always like, yeah, an engineering lead, a kinda like SRE related person with notion. It can be anything.So I'm curious how you put that expertise into a product versus, you know, obviously it, WS cannot build notion. It's, that doesn't quite work in this case, but[00:08:44] Simon Last: it's, it's a little bit differently shaped. I think, you know, a classic vertical SaaS, like the data is kind of like that. They understand their individual customer very deeply.It's kinda a narrow slice, um, notion has always been super horizontal. And our, our task has always been to sort of balance these two somewhat opposing forces of like, we're listening to our customers and what they want us to build. It's a broad slice. And then also we're thinking about like, okay, how do we decompose what they want into, uh, nice primitives that are, that are really nice to use and we'll, we'll get us like as much bang for the buck as possible.And then, you know. Maintain the whole system, make it all like, like super clean and nice to use.[00:09:22] Sarah Sachs: We still have user journeys. I mean, we still focus on like core. I actually think the failure of our team is when we focus too much on what are cools that are, what are tools that are[00:09:31] Simon Last: mm-hmm.[00:09:31] Sarah Sachs: Cool tools. I actually think that's when we make have the least velocity because you still need some sort of focus on a user journey.So like for instance, we'll all sit down every Friday and look at the P 99 of like the most token exhaustive custom agent transcript and just look at why it didn't do well and cut a bunch of tasks. Like we still focus on like, this has, like this should work. Email triaging should work. Mm-hmm. Right. And similarly, like when we're talking about before building, um, chatting, um, before we started filming about, okay, how can I do PDF export?Well that's functionality that then merits. Maybe we should build a tool that has access to a computer sandbox in a file system and the ability to write code. Right? Right. Um, but it's because we're thinking about the fact that our users to do their, to do their daily work, need to export PDFs, not because we're like, Hmm, I think a computer tool could be cool.Like, let's just see what happens. Mm-hmm. Like we, we have to focus on some user journeys, otherwise we just don't have like, enough strategy to, to prioritize.[00:10:29] swyx: I think there's a lot of like really strong opinions that you've had. Do you have like sort of like a towel of Sarah Sachs? Like, you know, like what, how do you run your team?Like I feel like you just have accumulated all these strong opinions. Obviously part, part of this is your, your token town thing.[00:10:43] Sarah Sachs: I think the TAs working with Service X is, um, you'd have to, it depends who you ask. Um, I think it depends if you're on my team or a partner Right. Or a vendor.[00:10:54] swyx: Yeah. There other people want to run their teams the way that you're Yeah.You're like bringing these things. And then also similarly, uh, Simon, when you did the custom agents demo, you had like, well, we've been using custom agents and here's the super long list of everything that we do. No humans ever read it. Right? That's what you said. I was like,[00:11:07] Sarah Sachs: yeah. So I think for, for me, um, something that I learned very quickly and became very comfortable with was that my job was not to be the ideas per person or the technical expert.My job was to make it so that everybody understood the objective, had a resource to help prioritize what they should work on, and had an avenue to prioritize what they thought was important. And I think that's true with all, all leadership, but I think especially on the AI team. Almost all of our best ideas come from prototypes, from people that have a cool idea because they saw a user problem, and it's a huge disservice if all of those ideas have to pass, like the sniff test of what me and a product partner or Simon and Ivan decided were the direction, right?Because a lot of what we're doing is leaning into capabilities, so. I think that's the first thing is like, I don't really view like the role of engineering leadership as like, uh, hierarchical, nor has it ever been, but especially now, like very willing to change direction based on, um, like proof is in the pudding.Yeah. And like, and I think we have rebuilt our harness three or four times. And when you do that, then the second rule of engineering leadership is like you need to build a team that's comfortable deleting their own code and is very low ego and is driven by what's best for the company. And, um, doesn't write design docs because they think it's their promotion packet.Right. And that's a culture that notion had long before I joined, but like our willingness to just swarm on different problems and um, redo things that we've built before because something has changed. Like, there's a lot of friction that can happen at companies when you do that. And it doesn't happen at Notion.And because it doesn't happen when new people join. Like they don't wanna be the ones that are saying, we shouldn't do this. I wrote that code. So then it's, you know, you, you create a culture that everyone thoughts and that culture comes directly, I think from Simon and Ivan though, um, because they're very open-minded.[00:12:50] swyx: Anything that you,[00:12:50] Simon Last: you'd add? I'm not a manager, like, like, like Sarah is. Um, a lot of my role is really to try to think a little bit ahead, make sure that we're, we're building on the right capabilities and then like the prototyping stuff. And yeah, it's really, really critical to always just be starting again.It's like, okay, this is new thing. What does this mean? What if we just rethought everything or wrote everything? And so I, I'm, I'm basically just doing that in a loop every six months.[00:13:16] swyx: Yeah. Do you believe in internal hackathons for this stuff?[00:13:19] Sarah Sachs: I think there's like two different versions. So one is like, we just have a, a, a solid bench of senior engineers that come and go on what we call the Simon Vortex and Productionizing what we built, right?Because when you're in the Simon Vortex, the velocity is super high. The direction changes daily, and it's meant to be like the equivalent of a SC Works lab. We don't need to do hackathons for that. We need to have senior engineers that we trust to come in and out of those projects. For instance, like management boundaries are really loose.Like you report to him, but you work for her right now. Yeah. That's something that when we hire managers, it's important they don't care about because we tend to form more structures. Yeah. Don't be too[00:13:54] swyx: territorial.[00:13:55] Sarah Sachs: We form more. It's after we ship things, not not before, just historically. Um, the second thing is we do have companywide hackathons.Actually we just had our demos day for the hackathon we had last week this morning. That's more for people that aren't directly working on the project, feeling like they have the time to pause and learn how to make themselves more productive or how they would use notion custom agents to build something.Or part of the hackathon was actually encouraging everyone across the company to build their own agentic tool loop, calling from scratch. Follow like an every blog post on how to do what I think because we want[00:14:26] swyx: just with the compound engineering one. Yeah.[00:14:28] Sarah Sachs: We want everyone to use cloud code in the company or whatever the coding agent they please and understand that fundamental.So we set aside a day and a half. We're all leadership, encourage everyone on their teams across the company to do it. So we have hackathons like that. I would say like kind of facetiously, like everything we build is a little bit like a hackathon until it graduates and puts on big boy pants and as a product ops rollout leader and has a assigned data scientists and stuff like that,[00:14:54] swyx: security review enterprise stuff,[00:14:56] Sarah Sachs: actually security reviews one of the things that we bring in first because it just slows us down way more and, um, causes a lot of tension and they build better product if they're involved early.So, um, that is probably the first person to get involved in something that's the[00:15:09] swyx: right PR approved answer.[00:15:10] Sarah Sachs: No, but it's not just PR approved. It like, um, um, it's[00:15:13] swyx: actually real. It's actually real. It's like, um, I'm just saying scar[00:15:15] Sarah Sachs: tissue.[00:15:15] swyx: Yeah,[00:15:16] Sarah Sachs: because like, you know, my background's also, I worked at Robinhood for a number of years.Yes. So like, uh, compliance and things like that, um, are a little bit more, you learn the hard way when it doesn't come naturally.[00:15:26] Simon Last: Yeah. I think the. The hackathon is really important for uplifting the general population, but like, if that's the only way you can build new things, you're kind of toast. I mean, it, it has to be like the daily processes, like, you know, building these new things.Um, and it has to be about, I think like, I think in the AI era a lot more leverage accumulates to the most curious and excited people. And so it's like we're all about just like activating that energy. You know, like if someone's protesting something on the weekend that they're excited about and it's important, that should be the main thing that we're doing.Yeah. Um, it's not a hackathon that we schedule once a quarter, it's just like, yeah. Daily process. Part of the culture.[00:16:02] Sarah Sachs: I mean, that's how we shift image generation and notion now. It was always this thing that would be kind of nice to have, but it wasn't really clear where that was necessarily aligned in product priorities.It'd be a lot of work. And we had someone on the database collections team, Jimmy, who was like. I really wanna do image generation for cover photos and inside notion. And we're like, if you wanna build it, like it's, do it please. Like we encourage you. We gave ‘em all the resources of working directly with Gemini and being able to like track the token usage and it working through endpoints.We gave them eval, support, everything, and then became a, a full project.[00:16:34] Alsesio: Yeah.[00:16:35] Sarah Sachs: That's why you can't have like ego as a, a leader. Like that's, that's how we work.[00:16:39] Alsesio: What's the size of the team today, both engineering and overall?[00:16:43] Sarah Sachs: I manage, uh, the team. That's what we'll call it. Core AI capabilities and infrastructure.That's about 50 people. But then we have per i partner teams that do packaging. So how it shows up in the corner chat versus custom agents versus meeting notes, that's another 30, 40 people. And, and then every team that has a product service at Notion that a user can interface with owns the tool that the agent interfaces with the editor team.The team that did CRDT for offline mode is the same team that handles how two agents, um, edit competing blocks. Mm-hmm. Right? It's the same problem. The team that built the underlying SQL engine is the same team that owns how the agent asks it to run a SQL query, and it does it performantly. And so from that regard, anyone working on product engineering is tasked with making them work for customers that are humans and agents because over time the majority of our traffic will be coming from agencies using in our interface, not humans.And so. Our objective is to make it so that the whole product org is building for agents.[00:17:40] Alsesio: Yeah. How has it changed internally? The activation bar is kind of lowered a lot. Like anybody can kind of create a prototype very, somewhat easily, especially if you're like an existing code base. Have you raised the bar on like what type of prototype people need to bring forward to gonna be taken?Not like seriously, but like, you know what I[00:17:58] Simon Last: mean? Yeah. I think the bar is lowered in many ways. Be like, one thing our, uh, our team built that is really cool is our, uh, our, our design team made a whole separate GitHub repo, uh, called the, the design Playground. And it's basically just to create a bunch of like, like helper components and you, uh, for, for quickly a throwing together UIs.And it's become like actually quite sophisticated. Like it has like an agent in there and like, uh, that's pretty fun. So like, we pretty much, like, they don't do mocks, they just make like, like full, full prototypes.[00:18:27] swyx: Here it is. It works.[00:18:28] Simon Last: They give you like a u rl. They're like, okay, all right. So we have to make the, like the real production version of that.Um, and then for engineers. A prototype looks like just making it a feature flag that actually works. Like that's sort of the bar.[00:18:39] Sarah Sachs: Something to understand that's really unique about notion. One of the reasons I joined we're super lucky is no one uses Notion in their job as much as people that work at Notion.[00:18:46] Simon Last: Of course.[00:18:47] Sarah Sachs: So I think there's very few companies, maybe if you worked on Chrome I guess, but like everything that we ship, we ship internally first and get a lot of really quick feedback. And also sometimes our dev instance is totally borked and you have to change a bunch of flags to get things done. And that's kind of like, but everyone, so people that do it ticketing, people that do supply chain procurement, recruiting, everyone is using the same instance of notion with like a lot of flags on for these prototypes people build.Um, and so we have this, Brian Levin, one of the designers on our team, I think evangelize this concept of demos over memos.[00:19:18] swyx: Ooh, too[00:19:20] Sarah Sachs: good. Um, which has been, uh, very good for building demos, and I think it's put a big pressure point on us to have really strong product conviction, because if anything can be demoed, you really need a strong filter of making sure that if you know, you're doing X amount of work, you're making the, you're, you're focusing on one tower, you're not just building a really flat hill.Right. That's actually where I think there has to be more conviction from our PMs, um, and our designers and, and well, the company really to have conviction of what journey we're going on.[00:19:52] Simon Last: But overall, I feel like it works pretty well. Like people, almost all the engineers have good enough taste to realize that like, this prototype doesn't actually make sense in the product, or, or it does.So it's not that common that I would see a prototype. It's like, oh, this makes no sense. Mm-hmm. It's like, you know, people are doing reasonable things and, and, and then it's just a matter of. Which things we build first and then often just, just figuring out how to turn it on and off. There's our, in the, in our like experimental chat ui, there's this, there's probably like, like a hundred check boxes in there.[00:20:22] Sarah Sachs: Kills me[00:20:23] Simon Last: the things you could turn on and off.[00:20:25] Sarah Sachs: Uh, but I think that, okay, so that is kind of true, Simon, but like being the person that manages the evals team, like there is a level of intensity that it adds to the platform team. So, you know, if we're gonna do image generation and notion, all of a sudden the way that we do attachments and the way that we, um, our LLM completion like cortex talks and expects tokens back and now it's getting images back.Like there's a lot of platform work that we do need to, like solidify a little bit. So sometimes it'll be in dev for a couple weeks before it makes it to prod just because we still have to like, make it robust, make it HIPAA compliant, ZDR compliant, figure out the right contracting with the vendor, whatever it is.And we need to eval it because we want the team. To still maintain what they build. That's the one thing is like if we have a bunch of prototypes, it can't just be like a small group of people that then maintain whatever end prototypes. So we have invested a lot of people in an eval and model behavior understanding teams that, we call it agent dev velocity.So your dev velocity building agents can be faster if we invest in that platform. And so we have a whole org dedicated to Asian, um, platform velocity so that you can build your own eval and then maintain it once you ship it. So if a new model release comes out and we, every[00:21:38] swyx: team maintains their own eval,[00:21:40] Sarah Sachs: we maintain the eval framework.Every team owns their own evals and a lot of them we've integrated to Optin, to ci, or we run them nightly and we have a team, uh, a custom agent that triggers to a team to look at the major failures. That's really critical because if we have like all these different surfaces now, a lot of it's on the same agent harness, so it's easier to maintain.It's just packaging of different agent harnesses, but new functionality of the agent. Let's say that like we wanna update like. Uh, you know, they deprecated, sonnet, um, four or whatever it is and we need to auto update. Are[00:22:11] swyx: they already? That's so, okay. Yeah. Actually wasn't that long ago.[00:22:14] Alsesio: Theywere[00:22:14] Alsesio: just 3.5.[00:22:15] Sarah Sachs: 3.537. Just got deprecated.[00:22:18] swyx: 3 7, 5 0.2 or, yeah. No,[00:22:20] Sarah Sachs: it's not. 5.2 is five point. Five point no. Yeah, five four is 40% more expensive than five two. So if they deprecated five two, you would hear they can, you would hear from me about that one. Um, but, uh, another conversation to have.[00:22:35] swyx: I have a cheeky evals question for you.Have you noticed any secret degradation from any of the major model providers?[00:22:40] Sarah Sachs: Secret degradation,[00:22:42] swyx: like. During the War Bay, when it's high traffic, it suddenly gets dumber.[00:22:47] Sarah Sachs: Yeah. I mean, not just between the, I mean, we definitely notice flakiness, we've definitely noticed, particularly for some providers, that things are slower during working hours and[00:22:57] swyx: there's a latency argument.Yes. Not a quality argument.[00:22:59] Sarah Sachs: No. I think the quality difference that's interesting is, um, even though companies that say they're selling the same, a, it's really into like quanti quantization, but like companies that say they're selling the same model through different vendors, whether it be through first party or Bedrock, Azure, et cetera.We do see different qualities sometimes, and that's not necessarily what's advertised.[00:23:21] swyx: Yeah. Kidney went to the point of like, if we, they shipped like this, like eval across all the providers and it was like very obvious we were secret equalizing and it was very,[00:23:28] Sarah Sachs: yeah. But[00:23:29] swyx: that's very embarrassing.[00:23:30] Sarah Sachs: You know, um, we hire Subprocess to figure that out for us.So we just wanna understand where it's regressing or where it's optimized. And sometimes we're okay with regressions that optimize latency if they're the appropriate regressions. Our job is to make sure we have the evals to understand the changes that are important to us. And even like when we're partnering with labs on pre-releasees of models, they'll send us multiple snapshots.And this is less about quantization, but more just regressions. Like they have shipped models that were not the snapshots that we wanted, and they have changed the snapshots that they shipped based on the feedback that we give. Because our feedback tends to be more enterprise work focused and not coding agent focused.And definitely those can be bummers, like, you know, uh, we know that this wasn't the version you wanted, but we'll help you make it work. I mean, we always make it work, but that definitely happens.[00:24:16] Alsesio: Yeah. Do you have, um, failing evals that you're just hoping, oh, that will have success eventually when a good model comes out?[00:24:23] Sarah Sachs: Uh, I mean, yeah. So I think. I mean, I could talk about this for 60 minutes, so I will limit myself. I think it's a real issue when people say evals and it's just like, that's quality, that's like unit, I mean, it's like saying testing. It's not just unit tests, right? So. We have the equivalent of unit test.Regression test. Those live in ci, those have to pass a certain percent, you know, within some stochastic error rate. Then we have, as you're building a product, evals of these aren't passing right now, and this is launch quality. So we have a report card and we need to, on these categories, you know, be it 80 or 90% of all of these user journeys to launch, and then what we have what we call frontier or headroom evals, where we actively wanna be at 30% pass rate.And that's actually been a effort that we took in partnership with philanthropic and OpenAI in the past maybe two or three months, because we actually hit a point where our evals were saturated and we weren't able to really give insightful feedback other than it wasn't worse. And not only is that not helpful for our partners, it's not helpful for us to understand where the stream is going.You know, going back to that analogy. And so we spent a lot of time thinking about. What notions last exam looks like, right? Mm-hmm. Not just humanities, last exam. Ooh, notions last exam. Mm-hmm. And, um, there's a lot of, you know, dreams about what that would look like. I know we've talked a lot about benchmarking, um, swix, but, uh, yeah.Notions last exam is a big thing inside the company and we have people, full-time staff to it exclusively. Mm. We have a data scientist, a model behavior engineer, and an full-time, um, evals engineer just dedicated to the evals that we pass 30% of the time.[00:25:56] swyx: What you're hiring for[00:25:57] Sarah Sachs: MBEs? I am hiring[00:25:58] swyx: What is an MBEA[00:25:59] Sarah Sachs: model?Behavior Engineer Model. Behavior engineers started with a title data specialist before I joined when they were working with Simon on like, uh, Google Sheets and like Simon just needed someone to look through Google Sheets and say, yes, no, this looks bad. This looks good. Right? And so we hired people with kind of diverse linguistics background.We had like a linguistics PhD dropout. Mm-hmm. And a Stanford ate new grad. And they're amazing. And they formed a new function basically. And over time we've built a whole team, um, with a manager who's now kind of reinventing what that role is with coding agents. So they used to be kind of manually inspecting code.Now they're primarily building agents that can write evals for themselves or LLM judges. There's a really funny day I can send you the picture where Simon, about a year and a half ago, was teaching them how to use GitHub. Um, and they're on the whiteboard and it was like, okay, I think it would be so much faster if our data specialists learned how to use GitHub and like learned how to commit these things in Dakota.And, and that was then and now I think, you know, coding has been a lot more accessible. Um, but moving forward it's this mix of like data scientist PM and prompt engineer because there's craft in understanding like even like what models can and can't do things. How do we define like that headroom? How do we define like what a good journey is?Um, is this model better or not? Why is this failing? There's some qualitative work, but then there's also like a lot of instinct and taste to it, and that's not necessarily software engineering. And so we have like very firm conviction and we have had for a number of years now that that is its own career path and we have always welcomed the misfits, so to speak.So we really firmly believe that you don't need an engineering background to be the best at this job. And that's what's quite unique about this particular role.[00:27:37] Simon Last: Yeah, this is something that I've been pretty excited about recently is we made an effort basically to treat the eval system as like an agent harness.So if you think about it, like, you know, you should be able to have an agent end-to-end, download a dataset, run an eval, iterate on a failure, debug, and, and then implement a fix. And ultimately you should be able to, you know, drive the full time process with a human sort of observing the, you know, the outer uh, system.So yeah, we went, went pretty hard on that. And that's, that's worked extremely well so far. It's like basically just to turn it into a coding agent, uh, uh, problem.[00:28:11] swyx: Your coding agent or just whatever[00:28:13] Simon Last: harness No coding agent. Yeah, code, cloud code. It should be totally general. Yeah. I think if it would be a mistake to like, like fix it on any, any particular coding agent.At the end of the day, it's just like CLI tools.[00:28:21] Sarah Sachs: It's like the same way that you would've a coding agent write the unit test. You should have a coding agent write the eval.[00:28:26] swyx: Yeah.[00:28:26] Sarah Sachs: But there's a lot of supervision in that still. We just don't believe that supervision has to come from software engineers because a lot of it is like, um, kind of you XREE and whatever, and these are the people that also triage failures and tell us where we should be investing next.[00:28:40] swyx: Yeah. I'm gonna go ahead and ask a spicy question. Is there a data, there are no software engineers at Notion.[00:28:46] Simon Last: Um,[00:28:46] Sarah Sachs: what does it mean to be a software engineer?[00:28:47] swyx: Exactly.[00:28:48] Simon Last: I mean, I think the way things are going is like we're on some continuum where. If, if you look back three years ago, humans were typing all the code and then we had auto complete, you're typing list of the code.Then we had sort of like filling agents, filling lines, and now we're getting into like agents doing longer range tasks where you can debug and implement a fix and then verify it works and you know, get your, get your PR even like, like Merion deployed. I think we're sort of just moving up the abstraction ladder and then the human role becomes more about observing and maintaining the outer system.There's a string of agents flowing through, like me prs what's going off the rails. Like what do I need to approve? Is there like a learning or memory mechanism that that works? So it's kind of a hard engineering problem. There's a, you know, there's, there's a lot to do there. I think we're just sort of moving up stack[00:29:34] Sarah Sachs: the same transition machine learning engineers have made, right?Like I haven't looked at a PR curve in a while.[00:29:39] swyx: Yeah. You used to do this stuff and now, um, auto research can do it,[00:29:42] Sarah Sachs: right? Like I think it depends on what you define as a software engineer.[00:29:46] swyx: Yes. It's, that's changing for sure.[00:29:49] Sarah Sachs: I think every software engineer in notion this summer went through like this, um, sheer, um, one of our engineering leads of the company called it, like every software engineer is going through the, the, uh, identity crisis that every manager goes through, where all of a sudden they realize their ability to write code is less important than their ability to delegate in context switch.And I think that is a transition out of being a software engineer. But[00:30:12] Simon Last: yeah. Yeah, there's a critical difference to being a manager, which is that like, it is actually very deeply technical. The problem, you know, humans are very like, like, like fuzzy and you can't like treat a team of humans like a, like a rigorous system where like, you know, prs like, like flow through and can be in like a block status and then what happens when they're blocked, right.With a set of agents, you actually can do that. And, and, and I think it's actually, there's a lot of interesting technical rigor that that goes into that it's like it's a technical design problem. Ultimately.[00:30:42] Alsesio: What is the design of the software factory that you're building?[00:30:46] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean, I think we're. Trying a lot of different things.I mean, ultimately you want to design a system that requires as little human intervention as possible, but like still maintaining the in variance that, that you care about. So yeah, we're exploring a lot different ideas there. I mean, I think I could talk about a few things I think are important there.Like, one thing I think is really important is, um, having some kind of like specification layer you can just commit marked on files. Mm-hmm. That works pretty well, but[00:31:15] swyx: it's nice to be notion man. I'm just saying like the spec, like Yeah. The natural home for specs is notion.[00:31:21] Simon Last: Yeah. Right. It can be a database of pages.Yeah. I mean, it needs to be something that is, you know, human readable and I viewable and I think that's pretty key. Another really key component is like the, the self verification loop. Yes. You need really, really good testing layers, basically. And that's a really deep, uh, uh, problem. But by getting that right, you know, and then, and then it's kinda like the workflow of like.What happens when there's a bug? How does it flow into the system? Like, is it like a subagent working on it? How does it make a PR and how does that get reviewed? And me, and then, you know, so there's like the, the flow or process.[00:31:56] swyx: Yeah. Cool. Uh, you know, one thing we did work out before you guys came in was this demo or this[00:32:01] Simon Last: agents[00:32:02] swyx: agent demo.Uh,[00:32:03] Simon Last: so every,[00:32:04] Alsesio: every time we do an episode, we try the product. Right. I don't think there's ever been an episode that I haven't tried. Yeah. Um,[00:32:11] swyx: and we, we try, try is a, a big word. Like since day one lane space has been on Notion, but this is the, this is the net new thing. Yes.[00:32:18] Alsesio: So this is for Nel Labs, which is the space we're in.So next week we're opening applications for tenants. So there's a web form, let me, we got this form done here. Uh, so, uh, before. Uh, the workflow would be I get an email, then I look at the person. It was like, should I spend time talking to this person? Then I respond, they respond back. So I build this. So the name it came up for on its own.Can you maybe h how do, how does it come up with its own name?[00:32:43] Simon Last: Yeah, that's a pretty app name. It's, it, it is just a random, it's a random, a name generator.[00:32:47] Alsesio: Oh, that's funny. It just came,[00:32:49] Simon Last: the fact that it picked that is, is kind of hilarious. I'm pretty sure it's just determined,[00:32:54] Sarah Sachs: resilient collector. I, I think I've never looked at the code for that.I've never second guessed it. I think it's kind of like a madlib situation.[00:33:00] Simon Last: Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. It's, it's totally a, a deterministic. Oh, I thought it was great. Yes. Although, although when the, if you use the AI to set itself up, it can update its own name, so. Okay. Um,[00:33:11] Sarah Sachs: how did you create it? It, did you just do[00:33:12] Alsesio: classroom?I,[00:33:13] Sarah Sachs: okay.[00:33:13] Alsesio: I did, yeah. I'll say just check my inbox for applications for a coworking space. Keep a people, so it created the database for me. Which I have here. And I guess database is like an notion table because everything is notion. Um, and then whenever um, an email comes in, like here, it just creates a new role for the person.Mm-hmm. And then it uses web search to enrich the mm-hmm. The profile. So it kind of like searches the web and it's like, this is who this person is, this is when they say they wanna move in and kind of updates everything else. This is, I mean, it's not a GI, but to me, I don't wanna do this work. So it feels like, I mean, it took me maybe like 15 minutes to set up the whole thing.Um, and I really like that most of the information should live here. You know, it is not like some other tool asking me[00:34:01] Sarah Sachs: Yeah.[00:34:01] Alsesio: To like, bring my stuff there. It's like I would've probably already created an ocean thing.[00:34:06] Sarah Sachs: Mm-hmm.[00:34:06] Alsesio: So[00:34:07] Sarah Sachs: most of our biggest use cases and gains are from. That extra layer of human involvement in the process to make it so right.And so like one of our biggest use cases is bug triaging. So if someone posts something in Slack, can you just have a custom agent that lives there that has its own routing constitution of what team this belongs to, creates a task in your task database and then posts in that Slack channel, right? Like that's like one of the first things that we built internally, I think.And it's completely changed the way that notion functions as a company. Nothing falls through, well, most things don't fall through the crack. We don't know what we don't know. But it's not replacing people, it's replacing processes.[00:34:44] Alsesio: Yeah.[00:34:44] Sarah Sachs: Right.[00:34:45] Alsesio: And I'm curious how you think about composability of these things.So the other one I was working on is like a. These filler. So whenever somebody signs up as a tenant, kind of he'll sell the lease for them. There should probably some agent that is like office manager agent mm-hmm. That can handle the request, make the lease, and then, uh, give them a ADA access to the office and all of that.How do you think about that feature?[00:35:08] Simon Last: Yeah, so I mean, there's, there's two ways you can compose. One way is by using like the data primitives. So you can, you know, you, you could give, you have one agent, uh, be writing to the database and there's another agent that's walked in the database. So that's, that's one way that they, they can coordinate that's like a little bit more decoupled and mm-hmm.Works really well. Or you, you can couple them. So I, I think it's actually not released yet. Releasing it like next week is, uh, in the settings for an agent, you can give access to invoke any other agent.[00:35:34] swyx: Hmm.[00:35:34] Simon Last: So you can have them just. Just, uh, uh, talk directly. So[00:35:37] swyx: you, was there a limit on like, number of recursions or just,[00:35:40] Simon Last: um, probably,[00:35:42] swyx: you know what I mean?Like, you can just get an infinite loop that way there's[00:35:45] Simon Last: some kind of Yeah,[00:35:46] Sarah Sachs: I think it's, there is actually a number somewhere.[00:35:49] swyx: I believe I'm just, you know, like, you're, you're, someone's gonna screw up. You[00:35:51] Simon Last: should you try to see[00:35:53] swyx: Yeah. I mean, everything's gonna be paperclips.[00:35:55] Simon Last: Oh, yeah. Yeah. But, uh, but, but that's really useful.Yeah. So we, you know, like I just, I, I helped, uh, someone internally the other day, they had, they had built like over 30 custom agents for, uh, for our go to market team doing all kinds of different things. You know, for example, like researching, you know, like, like filling information about, about a customer or like, like triaging customer feedback or like, uh, something like that.Literally over 30 of them. And, and then he, and then he even made like a database of all the agents and then he is like, okay, and, and now I'm getting 70, over 70 notifications per day with just the agents are blocked on various things. Uh, and then I was like, oh, okay, cool. You know, the obvious thing to do there is to make a manager agent,[00:36:32] Sarah Sachs: right?[00:36:33] Simon Last: That's gonna sort of blocks be another abstraction layer in between your, your, uh, uh, 30 agents. Uh, so yeah, we, we send out with like a manager agent and then has access to invoke all the other agents and it's sort of like, like watching and observing them and then it sort of, it just creates a layer of abstraction.So instead of 70 notifications per day, it's like, like five. And then, and then the manager agent can help like, uh, debug and fix any problems with the,[00:36:54] swyx: does this is a concept of like an inbox or something like piece, you're basically saying that they can message each other?[00:37:00] Simon Last: Yeah.[00:37:01] Sarah Sachs: Well[00:37:01] swyx: they use the system of record, which, which is[00:37:02] Sarah Sachs: notion, so we[00:37:03] Simon Last: actually, yeah, we didn't make any special concepts at all.[00:37:06] swyx: They're interested to the motion notifications that I would've got,[00:37:09] Sarah Sachs: they can just like write a task to a database that the other agent's task to listening to, or they can actually call a web book to the agent, like they can just add the agent. Okay.[00:37:17] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean, this is something that, that we're still working on.I, I think we, you know, like, like generally, generally the way we do these things is, you know, you first make it possible, maybe like a sort of janky way. So I, I, I think the way I set ‘em up is like, you know, we created like a new database that was sort of like issues mm-hmm. That the custom agents were, were experiencing, and then gave them all access to file an issue and then the manager has access to, to read the issues.Um, and that works pretty well, essentially like, like give it its own like internal issue tracker just for the agents. And then, you know, if that becomes a, a concept that seems useful, generally maybe we will think of how to package it in. But I mean, generally we try to just keep it to composing the primitive if we can.You know, another example of this is we have no built-in memory concept. Memory is, is just pages and databases. And so if you wanna give a memory, just give it a page and give it. Edit access to that page and the[00:38:03] swyx: human can edit it. Agent can edit[00:38:04] Simon Last: it. Yeah. And so that works, that pattern works extremely well on it.And you know, depending this case, you can have it be just a page or it could be an entire database with, you know, or, you know, I can have sub pages is is pretty on what you can do with that.[00:38:15] Alsesio: So when I was setting this up, uh, I connected my inbox and it was like, do you wanna use Gmail or Notion Mail? And I'm like, I don't wanna use Eater, I just want you to do it.I'm curious how you think about, you know, notion, mail, notion, calendar, all of these kind of ui ux interfaces, full stack[00:38:29] Simon Last: notion.[00:38:30] Alsesio: Yeah. When like at the same time you have the agents abstracting them away from you in a way, you know, how do you spend like the product calories so to speak?[00:38:37] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean, I think it's pretty important that you don't have to use, not your mail to connect to the mail capability.So we can just connect to Gmail or, or whatever you want, uh, to use. And we're thinking of the mail service as being really great to the extent that it's really agent built, right? So maybe the mail app is just sort of a prepackaged agent that helps you automate your, your inbox.[00:39:00] Alsesio: Yeah, the auto labeling is great.Think[00:39:03] Sarah Sachs: the, when we, um, integrate with Gmail for instance, we have a series of tools available that are available via MCP or API to Gmail. When we integrate with Notion Mail, we have the Notion Mail engineering team to build us the, um, exact right tools that optimize latency, optimize performance and quality.They own that quality. Um, there's product leads there. They're directly thinking about the user problems that happen in mail. So it tends to be when we build integrations and connections, we build natively first. Um, and then think about, um, extending them generally just because it's also easier. Mm-hmm. Um, um, to build natively first.Um, so that tends to be how we phase things out.[00:39:43] swyx: Talking about integrations, you prompted me, so I gotta ask. M-C-P-C-L-I. What's going on? What's the[00:39:48] Simon Last: Yeah. Opinion. I think, I mean, I'm, I'm definitely bullish and excited about cli. I think there's a few really cool things about cli. So one really cool thing is like, um, is that it's in the terminal environment, so it gets a bunch of extra power.So it, you know, for example, it can like, like paginating and cursor through like long outputs. Um, and it has a progressive disclosure inherently. Uh, so, you know, you don't see all the tools at once. It's just, you see the CLI wrapper and you can like use the, the help commands and, and, and read files. And then I think the most important thing that's, that's super cool is that there, it's also inherently a, a bootstrapped.So if there's an issue, uh, the agent can debug and fix itself within the same environment that it uses the tool.[00:40:30] swyx: Mm.[00:40:30] Simon Last: Right. Like, you know, I think I saw a tweet this morning. Someone said, you know, my agent didn't have a browser, so I asked it to make all a browser tool and within a hundred lines of code, it gave itself a little browser, like, like wrapping the, the, the chromium API, um.That's pretty incredible. And then if there was a bug, it would just immediately try to fix it. Mm-hmm. Right. On the other hand, if you use an, you know, if you use like of, of the Chrome dev tools, MCP, I've had this issue where like, like sometimes the transport gets like messed up. If it gets messed up, the agent has no way to fix itself.It, it no longer has a browser, it's, it's not broken. Right. I think that's, that's pretty fundamental, but I would say like a lot of the, the bad things about it can be fixed. Uh, so I think like, as a progressive disclosure, that can be fixed with, with right harness. Like, it, it obviously doesn't make sense to show it all the tools all the time.That's not really inherent to the MCP protocol. It's just like how you wrap it and use it.[00:41:16] swyx: There's many poorly built MCPs because we didn't know.[00:41:19] Simon Last: Yeah, yeah. I mean it was just early, like, like the obvious thing is, uh, you know, to start with is, is to just show it all the tools and it's like, okay, now we have a hundred tools.Yeah. And like the tool calling actually works. So let's of[00:41:28] swyx: your success[00:41:29] Simon Last: give it a way to like, like filter to source the tools. So yeah, I would say like broadly speaking, I'm really bullish on cli. I'm still bullish on CPS and in a certain environment. I think in, in particular, CP is really great for when you want sort of like a narrow, lightweight agent.I think there's, there's definitely a lot of use cases where, where you don't want like a full coding agent with a compute run time. And also you want it to be like more tightly permissioned. MCP inherently has a really strong permission model, like all you can do is call the tools. A CLI is a little bit murkier.It's like, can I access the, if PI token are you, like, properly sort of like re-encrypt the token so it can't like exfiltrate it, it introduce a lot of like, like new issues, which are. Real and hard to solve. And MCP is just like the dumb simple thing that works and it that it's pretty good.[00:42:12] Sarah Sachs: I'll add two more perspectives, not from it working well for Notion, but how notion like commits to both platforms.Notion is dedicated to being the best system of record for where people do their enterprise work. So we will always support our MCP and so far as other people are using cps, right? So regardless of our perspective, we've put a lot of effort into our MCP and we have a fantastic team that we're building, um, to do more there.And the second thing I'll say, I think, um, we all think a lot, but lately I've been thinking a lot about making sure there's a value alignment and pricing, um, with capability.[00:42:43] swyx: Literally our next question[00:42:44] Sarah Sachs: and. Needing language to execute deterministic tasks feels wasteful and requiring on a language model to interface with third party providers seems wasteful for tasks that don't require it.And particularly because our custom agents are using usage-based pricing. We think of pricing as like the barrier of entry for use of our product, and we're quite committed to making sure that it's not wasteful. Um, not just because it's a bad deal for our customers, but it's also bad business. We wanna have as many buyers, like there's a, there's an elasticity of demand and so if we can have our agents properly execute code that calls on CLI deterministically, it's a one-time cost, right?Versus constantly having a language model integrate with an MCP over and over and over and paying those like repeated token fees and it's happening outside the cash window, then you're paying for it over and over and over and it's just kind of unnecessary and less deterministic when it doesn't have to be.[00:43:36] Alessio: Yeah, the open-endedness I think is like, the main thing is like, well, if I go write code to just call an API, I would never use an MCP. But then you need an NCP sometimes when you know what to call, but you don't want it to restart versus like, I think the it built a browser from scratch is like, it's great when you're doing it on your own, but like if your customers were having your AI write a browser from scratch every time and you had to pay the token cost of that, yeah.You'd be like, no, no. The Chrome dev tools CP is actually pretty great. Just use that. I'm curious, how do you make that decision? Like should it be. Just straight API call very narrow. Should it be an MCP? Should it be super open-ended?[00:44:10] Sarah Sachs: Do you mean for when we ship notion capabilities or when we add capabilities to[00:44:13] Alessio: notion[00:44:14] Sarah Sachs: AI or,[00:44:14] Alessio: I mean, you might have a capability that the only way to do is an open-ended agent, like an agent with a coding sandbox.[00:44:21] Sarah Sachs: Yeah. In Notion ai they're not explicit, not We also ship an MCP.[00:44:24] Alsesio: Yeah. Yeah. In B,[00:44:25] Sarah Sachs: yeah.[00:44:26] Alsesio: Internally. Okay. Like is there ever a discussion of like, we're not gonna ship it because we're not able to tie it down? Or are you happy to just like,[00:44:33] Sarah Sachs: um, no. I mean, there are a lot of things where we choose not to use MCP because we wanna add more high touch to quality.I think search an agent to find is like the largest instance of that, where we have. Um, slack and linear and Jira search and notion that is not using necessarily the search MCP functionality that is provided by those companies. And that's because it's quite critical we think, to how our agent trajectories work is for us to have a little bit more control on the functionality of the search journey.And so it usually comes from quality and there's a long tail of things and that's why we built an MCP client or an MCP server, excuse me, so that people can connect whatever they want. There's that long tail, right. But we, for search particularly, I would say that's like the primary entry point, but there are other connections as well that it's a little bit of secret sauce a
Send us a text!In this episode, we discuss Paul's teaching on ladies headcovering during worship, as well as common objections. We'll discuss the practice in church history and why it suddenly changed in the 20th century with the onslaught of feminism. Join us at the New Christendom Press conference, The War for Normal, this June 11-14 in Ogden, Utah.https://thewarfornormal.com/Did you know supporters of the show get ad-free video and audio episodes delivered early and access to our patron exclusive show the After Hours and interactive live streams with Eric and Brian? https://www.patreon.com/thekingshallOur new books are now in stock and shipping. Save 15% if you order them together! Get them here!This episode is sponsored by: KeepwisePartners.com your partner for small business finance and accounting. Call Derrick Taylor at 781-680-8000 to schedule a free consultation. https://keepwise.partners/Armored Republic: Making Tools of Liberty for the defense of every free man's God-given rights - Text JOIN to 88027 or visit: https://www.ar500armor.com/ Talk to Joe Garrisi about managing your wealth with Backwards Planning Financial. https://backwardsplanningfinancial.com/Receive top-tier musical training from Bohnet Music Academy. https://www.bohnetma.com/ncpChristian business owners go to reformedbusinessalliance.com/ncp and use code NCP to claim your free month. Go to Mt Athos for sustainably sourced goat dairy protein and other performance products. Listeners of the show get a 20% discount site-wide with code "NCP20". https://athosperform.com/Book your free strategy call at https://www.bonifacebusiness.com/ See a live version of the podcast in Burlington, MA - April 17th. Get your tickets here: https://events.refreshministry.com/live-podcastSee a live version of the podcast in Burlington, MA - April 17th. Get your tickets here: https://events.refreshministry.com/live-podcast Support the show:https://www.patreon.com/thekingshall
Send us a text!Feminism has left a terrible rot in the West. In this episode we discuss the new documentary, “What a Woman Is,” with Timothy Gordon and Joe Enders. We'll discuss why feminist ideology has spread in the church, and why it's so important to slay.Join us at the New Christendom Press conference, The War for Normal, this June 11-14 in Ogden, Utah.https://thewarfornormal.com/Did you know supporters of the show get ad-free video and audio episodes delivered early and access to our patron exclusive show the After Hours and interactive live streams with Eric and Brian? https://www.patreon.com/thekingshallOur new books are now in stock and shipping. Save 15% if you order them together! Get them here!This episode is sponsored by: Lux Coffee Company; Caffeinating the New Christendom with artisan roast coffee. Get 15% off your coffee with code "NCP15". https://luxcoffee.co/Armored Republic: Making Tools of Liberty for the defense of every free man's God-given rights - Text JOIN to 88027 or visit: https://www.ar500armor.com/ Talk to Joe Garrisi about managing your wealth with Backwards Planning Financial. https://backwardsplanningfinancial.com/Receive top-tier musical training from Bohnet Music Academy. https://www.bohnetma.com/ncpChristian business owners go to reformedbusinessalliance.com/ncp and use code NCP to claim your free month. Go to Mt Athos for sustainably sourced goat dairy protein and other performance products. Listeners of the show get a 20% discount site-wide with code "NCP20". https://athosperform.com/Book your free strategy call at https://www.bonifacebusiness.com/ See a live version of the podcast in Burlington, MA - April 17th. Get your tickets here: https://brushfire.com/refreshministry/refreshlive/623078 Support the show:https://www.patreon.com/thekingshall
Claude Cowork came out of an accident.Felix and the Anthropic team noticed something interesting with Claude Code: many users were using it primarily for all kinds of messy knowledge work instead of coding. Even technical builders would use it for lots of non-technical work.Even more shocking, Claude cowork wrote itself. With a team of humans simply orchestrating multiple claude code instances, the tool was ready after a brief week and a half.This isn't Felix's first rodeo with impactful and playful desktop apps. He's helped ship the Slack desktop app and is a core maintainer of Electron the open-source software framework used for building cross-platform desktop applications, even putting Windows 95 into an Electron app that runs on macOS, Windows, and Linux.In this episode, Felix joins us to unpack why execution has suddenly become cheap enough that teams can “just build all the candidates” and why the real frontier in AI products is no longer better chat, but trusted task execution.He also shares why Anthropic is betting on local-first agent workflows, why skills may matter more than most people realize, and how the hardest questions ahead are about autonomy, safety, portability, and the changing shape of knowledge work itself.We discuss* Felix's path: Slack desktop app, Electron, Windows 95 in JavaScript, and now building Claude Cowork at Anthropic* What Claude Cowork actually is: a more user-friendly, VM-based version of Claude Code designed to bring agentic workflows to non-terminal-native users* Why “user-friendly” does not mean “less powerful”: Cowork as a superset product, much like how VS Code initially looked simpler than Visual Studio but became more hackable and extensible* Anthropic's prototype-first culture: why Cowork was built in 10 days using many pre-existing internal pieces, and how internal prototypes shaped the final product* Why execution is getting cheap: the shift from long memos, specs, and debate toward rapidly building multiple candidates and choosing based on reality instead of theory* The local debate: why Felix thinks Silicon Valley is undervaluing the local computer, and why putting Claude “where you work” is often more powerful* Why Claude gets its own computer: the VM as both a safety boundary and a capability unlock, letting Claude install tools, run scripts, and work more independently without constant approval* Safety through sandboxing: why “approve every command” is not a real long-term UX, and how virtual machines create a middle ground between uselessly safe and dangerously autonomous* How Cowork differs from Claude Code: coding evals vs. knowledge-work evals, different system-prompt tradeoffs, longer planning horizons, and heavier use of planning and clarification tools* Why skills matter: simple markdown-based instructions as a lightweight abstraction layer for reusable workflows, personalized automation, and portable agent behavior* Skills vs. MCPs: why Felix is increasingly interested in file-based, text-native interfaces that tell the model what to do, rather than forcing everything through rigid tool schemas* The portability problem: why personal skills should move across agent products, and the unresolved tension between public reusable workflows and private user-specific context* Real use cases already happening today: uploading videos, organizing files, handling taxes, managing calendars, debugging internal crashes, analyzing finances, and automating repetitive browser workflows* Why AI products should work with your existing stack: Anthropic's bias toward integrating with Chrome, Office, and existing workflows instead of rebuilding every app from scratch* Computer use one year later: how much better it has gotten, why vision plus browser context is such a superpower, and why letting Claude see the thing it is working on changes everything* Why many “AI verticals” may get compressed: specialized wrappers may matter in the short term, but better general models and stronger primitives could absorb a lot of narrow use cases* The future of junior work: Felix's concerns about entry-level roles, labor-market disruption, and whether AI can compress early-career learning into denser simulated experience* Why Waterloo grads stand out: internships, shipping experience, and learning how real teams build products versus purely theoretical academic preparation* The agentic future of the desktop: what it means for Claude to have its own computer, whether AI should act on your machine or a remote one, and how intimacy with personal data changes the product design space* Why Electron still mattered: shipping Chromium as a controlled rendering stack, the limits of OS-native webviews, and why browser engines remain one of the great software abstractions* Anthropic's Labs mentality: wild internal experiments, half-broken future-looking prototypes, and the broader effort to move users from asking questions to delegating increasingly long and valuable tasks* Why the endgame is not just more capability, but more independence: teaching users to trust AI with bigger scopes of work, for longer durations, with fewer interventionsFelix Rieseberg* X: https://x.com/felixrieseberg* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/felixrieseberg* Website: https://felixrieseberg.com/Anthropic* Website: http://anthropic.comFull Video PodTimestamps00:00 — Cheap execution and building all the candidates00:44 — Intro in the new Kernel studio02:47 — What Claude Cowork is04:18 — Why user-friendly can be more powerful05:33 — How Anthropic built Cowork07:09 — Prototype-first product development08:00 — Why local computers still matter09:20 — Skills, primitives, and platform leverage12:13 — Cowork's architecture: VM + Chrome + system prompt15:38 — Felix's own bug-fixing Cowork workflows17:38 — Local-first agents20:16 — Evals, planning, and knowledge-work optimization23:14 — What Anthropic means by evals24:21 — Scaffolding, tools, and why skills matter27:44 — Demo: YouTube uploads and self-generated skills31:03 — Calendar automation and cleaning your desktop34:47 — Browser context and why DOM access matters37:47 — Skills portability and plugins44:36 — Which AI categories survive?46:19 — Junior jobs, simulated work, and labor disruption52:00 — Gradual takeoff vs big-bang takeoff53:42 — Finance, taxes, and enterprise verticals56:24 — Vision and the improvement in computer use57:31 — Why Claude writes its own scripts58:06 — Should Claude have its own computer?1:01:26 — Windows 95 in JavaScript1:03:19 — VM tradeoffs and sandbox design1:07:23 — Approval fatigue and safe delegation1:11:18 — The future of Cowork1:12:27 — What comes next for agentic knowledge work1:15:13 — Electron, Chromium, and desktop software lessons1:22:16 — Multiplayer agents and coworker-to-coworker workflows1:26:05 — Anthropic Labs and closing thoughtsTranscriptAlessio: Hey everyone. Welcome to the Latent Space Podcast, our first one in the new studio. This is Alessio, founder of Kernel Labs, and I'm joined by swyx, editor of Latent Space.swyx: Yeah, so nice to be here. Thanks to, uh, TJ, Alessio, Allen helping to set everything up. It looks beautiful. We even have the logo outside.Yeah, kind.Felix: It's like really nice, right? When you walk in here as a guest, you're like, ah, this is a serious production. You're like, feel it immediately.swyx: Yeah. Felix, you've been, you're, you're currently a product manager of Cowork or,Felix: uh, really Technicswyx: Eng. Yeah. The, the identities are kind of vague member technical staff.Felix: I know member staff is like, the official title will carry around forever.swyx: Yeah. I basically kind of wanted, like we've been. Kinda obsessed. I, I've been using it a lot, even for managing latent space. Like, uh, cowork helps me upload videos and like title things and like edit and everything. It's, it's like really amazing.Alessio: Cool. He said multiple times Cowork has said gi in the group track.swyx: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so we have a second, uh, we have a second channel, uh, for latent space tv. Uh, and I, uh, and uh, we basically, this is our Discord meetup. Um, and I I, we have like Claude Coworks, it might be a GI, I don't know if we, we have, uh, uploaded it yet, but one of the sessions was like a, like a Claude cowork thing.Felix: I, you have to see, I would love to see it. Like, I'm so curious, like one of the most fun parts of my job is like constantly see the weird things people use Cowork for because it's obviously like very hard for us to actually design for specific use cases we do. But like every single person who's like most amazed is usually amazed about a thing that I didn't even expect cowork would be good at.Um, we have a new designer and it's one of the first small tasks. I was like, Hey, we need like a new emoji for cowork for our internal stock. It's like a pretty small thing. I like, can you please do it? And he drew an SVG and just gave it to coworker was like, can you animate this emoji? And now it has like this beautiful loopy animation.Um, and I mean, I think obviously this goes down to like, it turns out you can do more things with code than you expected, but it, it's like that kind of stuff that is really fun to me. So, long story short, I would love to see like, the kind of things you're doing.swyx: I'll pull it up. I'll pull it up.Felix: Yeah. Yeah.swyx: Uh, but before we get into it, I, I think always wanna start with like a top level. What is Claude Cowork for people who haven't heard of it? Haven't tried it out.Felix: Okay. Uh, real quick, Claude Cowork is a user friendly version of Claude Code. So the way it basically works is we have Claude Code and for us, fairly impressive agent harness that over December we noticed more and more people are using either, even though they're not technical, they, they're not at home in the terminal or they are at home in the terminal, but they started using Claude Code for non-coding workloads, right?Like managing expenses or like filling out receipts or organizing a knowledge base. Like there was a big obsidian moment that a lot of people liked and we wanted to capitalize on that, but also bring, bring this capability to people who are not terminal native and who might not know how to like brew and store something.So cowork is Claude Code running in original machine with a little bit of padding, a little bit more guardrails, making it a little safer and a little bit more convenient for people who don't wanna first open up the terminal when they go to work.swyx: It's interesting, uh, that is kind of. Pitch that way as a more user friendly thing because I always feel like it, it, to me, I I treat it as like why I'm familiar with Claude Code.Like we, we did a Claude Code episode Yeah. A year ago. But this one is like even more power user tools ‘cause it, uh, it kind of integrates much better with like clotting Chrome and, uh, in all the, all the other tooling. But like, maybe, maybe that's like a perception thing, right? LikeFelix: No, honestly, I don't think you're wrong.This is like a, a thing I've been thinking a lot about for like the last two weeks. So,swyx: but when they say user friendly, it's like, oh, it's the dumb down version. But no, actually this is the superset.Felix: Yeah. Like, I think a similar thing happened, A similar thing happened to me about 10 years ago, like maybe 12 years ago when I was at Microsoft and we started working on, on Electron and like browser-based technologies and cross-platform stuff.And one of the first use cases was Visual Studio Code, which used to be a website. And the initial narrative was, or Visual Studio Code is, is like a more user-friendly version of Visual Studio. But in a similar vein, I think there was some voices saying, oh, this is. For serious developers, like, we're not gonna use this.Right? For like anything. And I think in the end what happened is people have different stories about why Visual Studio Code became such a big thing. But my personal, my personal belief is that the Hackability and the extendability has like played a pretty big role, right? You can hook in Visual Studio Code that like almost any workload, it's so easy to hack on, so easy to put extensions for it.And I think cowork might be hitting a similar thing where it's very easy to extend and it's very easy to bring into your workflows. Uh, so the convenience I think is a bit of a, it's obviously the thing we strive for as developers, but I think the way people find value in it then is by probably mapping it onto whatever they actually have to do in their job.Alessio: So end of last year, you see the spike of like non-technical usage and clock code. What's the design process to say we should make clock code work? Because I mean, you built it in only 10 days. Um, I'm sure there was some discussion before on whether it's easier to use mean. You know, like making, making like a desktop GUI is obviously one way to do it, but like there's a lot of nuance in the product.Like maybe talk people through what was like the trigger of like, we should build a separate thing. We should not build like a different plot code thing. And then maybe some of the more interesting design decisions that maybe you didn't take.Felix: Yeah, I think philanthropic, we've been thinking about ways to move people who are comfortable with using Claude to answer questions and bring more of the power of like this thing to now like, execute tasks for you.I can like solve problems for you can like build things for you. How do we bring that capability to people who are currently mostly comfortable with like a like question answer paradigm within the chat. And we've had a lot of prototypes around that. Just going back as far as like easily a year and a half.Like we had a lot of people working on that. Um, and internally philanthropic is a very prototype demo, first culture. We have a lot of like internal prototypes that don't reach the public. What Cowork actually became is like we sort of picked the right pieces out of the many prototypes that we had.Right. And that's, that's maybe also like, I think an important qualifier whenever people mention this like 10 day number. I do think it's important to me to mention that within Double Scratch there was like a lot of stuff already happening, right? Like, and I think it's important for people to remember that when you build a website, you use React, you use like a bunch of other things.And this is like a similar scenario with like a lot of pieces we already had. Um, and in terms of decision path, I think we live in like an interesting new world where execution is actually quite cheap.swyx: Mm-hmm.Felix: So maybe, maybe what you would do That's so crazy. The year. I know it's wild.swyx: You should be, ideas are cheap.Execution is the hard part. IFelix: know. And like the, we, we used to live in this world maybe where you would take a product manager and the product manager would go to a number of potential customers and in this like very low bandwidth way, would try to. Try to like tease out what are the problems they're having, what are they willing to buy?Um, and then maybe what can you build to like drive out that need and then you go back and you like draft a spec and you think about it and then like you make a design and you execute it. We internally philanthropic app, not pretty much closer to the point where we're like, don't even write a memo, just like build, like let's build all the candidates very quickly.Let's just build all of them and then pick the best ones. I think the, the decision that is most impactful both for the product as well for the users right now is like the way we put value on your local computer. I think that's a big decision point a lot of people have thought about. Should this thing, whatever it is, should it ultimately run into computer or should it run in the cloud?‘cause they're big trade offs, right?Alessio: I guess like if we solve auth, it would be easy to do in the cloud. But I think like the fact that I can just download any file from anywhere and then put it and cowork there, it's like a big unlock. Um, I mean it's interesting you mentioned reusing certain pieces. I think this is something I've been thinking about even with Claude Code, right?The price of like writing code is going to zero, blah, blah, blah. But it actually seems like the value of having some sort of platform substrate is like increasing because as you build these new things, you can kind of plug them together.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: So I almost feel like when people are saying, oh, the value of a lot of software is gonna zero because you can recreate it, to me it's almost like the opposite.It's like having an existing platform to build on top of. It's like even more valuable because you can kind of bolt things on.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: You have obviously mcps, you have skills, you have like obviously the models, which is a big part. All these things kind of come together. Do you feel like that's a valid way to think about it, where people should invest even more in kind of like primitives.To rebuild on or are you like recreating a lot of it each time because like things change and it's easier to rewrite than reuse?Felix: You know, I think, I think you're right. I think you're right that the holistic platform is really useful. And this is maybe a whole like a somewhat contrarian view to a lot of people in ai.I actually don't think that the future is going to be hyper personalized software down to the point where everyone is running their own version. Like, I actually think it's going to be quite hard for all of us to have our own internal chat tool and like, if I wanna talk to you, likeswyx: howFelix: is that gonna work, right?In the, in the context of cowork and how we build it, I think it's a bit of a combination. Like what the, the execution that gets cheap is not necessarily rebuilding all the primitives. I think our priori, there's also not a lot of value in it. So for instance, my team did not think about rebuilding clock code.We're like very much started with the. The core thesis of this should be Claude Code.Mm-hmm.Felix: And then we'll like build things on top of it. The part of the execution that gets a little cheaper is like, how do you take all of these Lego pieces and put them together in a way that makes sense for users?It's like actually valuable. You have so many different approaches now in terms of what kind of, what kind of things do you actually elevate to a primitive, do you strongly believe that all your products should be built by just combining primitive that the public also has available? Do you keep some things internal?Um, and I think that's still evolving, but I think what's probably gonna go away is like, I'm not sure if it's gonna fully go away, but I'm gonna say, I think for me personally, I will probably no longer try to come up with a really good product without testing up with people. This is not a new concept, but wherever you used to have to make costly decisions around, do we pick technology A or technology B, or do we like, um, build it this way, build it the other way.I really strongly believe now you just build all of them and try them out with a small focus group and then whatever, whatever is better is what you go with. Right. And that, that is probably quite different even from how we maybe worked a year ago. Right. Like, I think, I think this happened very recently.Alessio: Yeah. I started building something in on Electron since you're here. Coincidence. Uh, but then Electron and like SQL Light are like, there's like some issues that like between development and like, uh, building anyway. And I was like, let's just rebuild the whole thing in Swift and just recreated the whole thing in Swift.And it's like, I. It's done.swyx: You know, I didn't take any effort. I, I, I don't even know Swift.Alessio: Yeah, exactly. I was like, I'm the, I'm not reviewing it anyway, whatever. You can write in whatever language you pick, but the important stuff that I did was not write the electron bindings. Yeah. It was like the logic of what happens in the app, you know, and then the model is like, yeah, I can just recreate the same thing as withswyx: Yeah.I, I think you still want, especially for people who are doing like high performance software or like very complex software, uh, you still want like, some view of the architecture. Uh, but you can use markdown for that,Felix: right? Yeah.swyx: Uh, you don't actually have to read the code again. I, I'm still like on a sort of like a definitional thing.Um, can we build a good mental model of Claude Cowork? Um, this is what I have, right? Like you you said it's like fundamentally cloud co. We don't wanna touch it. There's the cloud app, there's clouding Chrome. I think you guys do something different in planning, but, uh, I've been talking with Tariq who is on the cloud co team, and you guys are, he's like, no, we just exposed planning.Maybe we can clarify like, what are the major pieces. That people should be aware. It goes into cowork, like,Felix: okay, I think you basically have them. So really, um, you can, you can take planning more or less out. I think there's a few things that are really valuable in cowork. Um, the virtual machine is probably the most powerful thing.So we currently run like a, we currently run like a lightweight VM and we put clocked out into the vm and we do that for, for, um, a number of reasons. Safety and security is a big one, but even if you, even if you ignore for a second safety and security and you're just like, okay, Yolo, I want this thing to do whatever.It is quite powerful to give Claus on computer that is like generally a good idea. And in terms of architecture and UX and everything else that we've been working on, philanthropic, it often is quite useful for you to like anthropomorphize, um, clot aggressively and just be like, this is a person. What will you do if you give a, if you had a person, right?Yeah. And the analogy I've given my dad this morning who is still like quite insistent on using chat even for like coding things, is if you were a developer and your employer told you that you don't need a computer, they're just gonna like, send you emails with a code and you send emails with code back like that, maybe work for Patrick Miles in the back, but that it's not very effective.Um, so what we can do with the VM is because it's a, it's a Linux system, Claude Code has more or less free reign to install whatever needs to install. It can install Python, it can install no js. We do have strict network ingress and egress controls. So you can still, as, as a user in like plain human language, make it clear to, to the entire system what you're okay with and what you're not okay with.But at no point do we have to ask a real person, like a, like a person who might be in marketing or a lawyer. I'd have to go to a lawyer and be like, are you okay with me installing Homebrew?Alessio: Yeah, yeah.Felix: Right. Because the implications of the question and the answer are complex and nuanced and like, not, not easy to reason about.This gives us a lot of distraction that makes Cloud very powerful. Now then around it, we, we do probably have a number of things that also keeps growing almost every single week that you're probably noticing that make cowork maybe better for certain tasks than just cloud. Cloud on its own. Yeah. But most of those actually live in the system prompt.They're about like, what can we infer about the work that you do? What can we, what can we intru in the system prompt to make that more effective? It's of course the like very tight integration with Cloud and Chrome. You're noticing that a lot of people, especially as the models get better, a lot of people throw up their hands when it comes to MCP connectors in this area.I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go through like 25 M CCP connectors, click off everywhere and then like half of them don't let me do the things anyway. So Cloud and Chrome is quite powerful because we can just talk to the cloud and Chrome sub agent and that will just do things for you.swyx: Yeah, so, so one example right in MCPI, honestly, I think that the state of MCP is kind of, kind of.Really hard to integrate. Um, I need to, I needed to add, uh, Figma MCP to the coding agent that I use.Felix: Yeah.swyx: Uh, and, but I didn't wanna read the docs, so I just had caught to it. And it's, it's great at reading docs and the same, same way I had to set up like a Google Cloud, um, account for some project I was working on and get some API keys somewhere.And Google Cloud is famously super hard to navigate, so I just didn't wanna deal with any of it. I just used Claude CoworkFelix: within the first week of developing on Core. This happened very, very quickly. Um, I caught myself by starting to use cowork for coding tasks, which is not ostensibly what we built it for, right?We don't need to. But I found myself, um, I found myself like on our internal, internal tool that we have for, to collect crashes and just like debugging information and I found myself sort like picking out the ones that I think we can easily fix versus the ones that might be like kernel corruption or something else on the operating system.And I found myself sort of picking these out and then just telling Clark, go fix this bug. I was like, what am I doing here? Go one level up, tell a cowork, I want you to go to all these crash tools. I want you to find all the bugs that you think are fixable and not like an operating system crash. And then I want you to tell another cloud to like fix all of that.Um, and that's, that's, that's sort of another cloud,swyx: just so it can spin up another instance or,Felix: uh, it, currently what I do is, um, and this is a bit of a hack, but I tell it to use clockwork remote to which website itself? Yeah, that's interesting. So you basically take, if you, if you imagine like a dashboard with like 20 bucks, you, this is remote control or clock or remote, or, sorry, I just wanted to confirm what, the way I'm using it is.I have cowork running and I'm telling cowork, here's where I normally go every morning to find the latest bugs. Go read the entire bug list, separate out which ones are fixable, which ones are, are fixable, and then for the fixable ones, four is this almost loop. For each bug, write a markdown file with a prompt.And then for each markdown v, that is a prompt. Start of a cloud set. So natively Claude Code hasswyx: this concept of subagents. Mm-hmm. And this is basically a subagent, but you're not using the subagent functionality.Felix: I'm not using the subagent functionality. And the reason I'm not is because I'm firing that off as a Claude Code remoteswyx: task.Felix: Yes. That's kind of nice. ‘cause then I can just fire it off. I can go to my next meeting and in Claude Code remote. Now the work is happening.swyx: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You, you see like you're already starting to use the cloud over your local machine. And I think this is one of those things where like. Shouldn't just everything just be cloud first, right?Felix: Ah, this is such a good group. I'm like solely bad about this. I have so many thoughts about that. Okay. So I generally believe that Silicon Valley overall is undervaluing the local computer. And my default argument for that is always how come we're all using MacBooks and not like an iPad or a Chromebook?Um, that there is like still value in, in having a local machine. And now when I think about Clot, it's this entity that is supposed to be very useful to you, like it tremendously useful to you. I think that entity needs to have access to all the same tools you have access to. Otherwise it's gonna be hamstrung in like all these complex ways.And there's, there's sort of two approaches we could take. We could say, okay, we're gonna like one by one chip away at everything that is at your computer and move it into the cloud. That's, that's one way to do it. Um, and I think other products have taken that path. I personally, this is a very personal opinion, but I personally, for the amount of tools that I use.Just don't have the patience to give another tool like permissions to every single thing and keep those permissions up to date. The second thing that I'm still grappling with, and I don't have a good answer for anyone just yet, but the second thing I'm still grappling with is what does it look like for someone to slurp up your entire work and put that in the cloud?Like if I, just as an example, like if you could click a button and it just clone your entire computer into the cloud, is that something that you would want? I'm not totally convinced yet that all everyone will. Mm-hmm. And that is sort of like upstream of all the technical issues we're gonna have. ‘cause like in general, I think the world is not ready for this kind of stuff.Like, I'll give you one quick example that would probably be very easy for us. So as a desktop app, we in theory with your permission, can do a lot of things on your computer, including reading your Chrome cookies. If we really want to do right, we could take your Chrome cookies, you would have to decrypt them for us.We could put those on the cloud if we really felt like it. Pretty easy solution. That would be super cool. We could just be like, oh, we can do all your tasks in the cloud now. Um, a lot of websites, thanks, include it. If, if they see the same authentication from like two different locations, we'll just lock down your account and now you have to go to the branch and be like, okay, I, I'm here with my passport.You actually know that. Wow. Yeah. As tired as well are of the term agent for the age agent future, I think there's a lot of stuff that sort of slowly needs to catch up and until that's the case, the way I, as someone's working on clock and make Cloud most effective is to like put it where you are working.swyx: Anything else? I thought with our mental model, so like, basically like, uh, part of me also just want, like the more I understand how it works, the more I can use it to its full potential. Right?Felix: Yeah.swyx: And so what I'm get hearing from you is you told me to delete the planning thing. You're not doing anything special on, on the, that's only exclusive to Qua cowork.Felix: We have some tricks for this sort of like change week over week. We eval cowork maybe against different use cases than he would evil clock code, right? If you think about it this way. Okay, so like clock code is our eval clock cowork. Yeah. So clock code is like quite optimized for coding tasks and we mostly value it whether or not we're getting better or worse depending on how good it is at like a typical suite job.And Clark Cowork on the other hand, we evaluate more against typical knowledge work, the kind of stuff he would find in finance or in like maybe a, like in like a legal office. Um, my personal use case is always like managing my things, like managing my personal mortgage or something like that, right? Or like wealth planning for me and my family.Those are the kinds of use cases we eval, clock cowork on. And what you might be picking up on is like the subtle changes we make to the system. Prompt what we put in the system, prompt how we steer, clot with the tools we give it. Um, like either it'd be better in one or the other direction and whether there's a trade off, try us exist a lot.CLO code will be better of a code and Claude Cowork will be better. For non-coding tasks, will those gaps still exist in the next three generations of models? It's like a little unclear to me though.swyx: Yeah,Felix: because right now these like hyper optimizations we make, I'm not sure for how long they're still be relevant.swyx: I think what I was referring to was also, it, it just, uh, it qualitatively felt different when I probably, it's just all prompting and I'm reading too much into it, but like the, the fact that it comes out with like a nine step plan, I can edit the plan and give feedback and, and, and see it execute the plan.Yeah. It felt more long range than in Claude Code, but maybe that already existed in Claude Code and you just build a nicer UI for it.Felix: It's kind of both. Um, like if the Clark Code people who build the planning functionalities would city, they probably say yes, we have all of those things in Clark code and they do.Um, I think people tend to give cowork. Tasks that are maybe of longer time horizon, I thought isswyx: so long. Yeah.Felix: That's like one thing, right? It's just like that the, the chunk of work tends to be maybe a little bigger. And then the second thing is that because the work, when it gets longer, it gets a little bit more ambiguous.We do tell co-work to make heavy use of the planning tool or to make heavy use of the ask user question tool, right? We do want it to come up with like. Different scenarios of, okay, tease out what the user actually wants. Don't go off to work for like four hours and then come back with the wrong thing.And you're probably picking up on that.swyx: Yeah.Felix: Um, I wish I could tell you I like built this magical thing and it's like, there's some secret sauce,swyx: but No, no, no. I mean, it's, it's just clarity is good that, you know, engineers just want to know. Yeah. They can, they can plan around it. And then I think also for me, um, I am realizing I have to switch to my, my other machine because this is a new machine that doesn't have my session.But, uh, yeah, the, the, the planning is really important for, for me to like approve or like to see whether it's like, it's right. The ask is, the question is so beautifully presented. I mean, it also, it also available in like cursor and, and in Claude Code. But like, I, I think like it's so nice to see that it, like it's kind of for me like to understand that it gets me, it gets what I want to do.Felix: Yeah.swyx: Yeah.Felix: It probably very hardswyx: just on the topical evals. Mm-hmm. When you say eval, I think people are very vague about what it means. Is it just like vibe testing or do you have like automated programmatic evals of Claude Cowork?Felix: When we say eval, uh, what we really mean is that we essentially take the entire transcript, including all the tools that clot has available ultimately to it, and we then measure what are the outputs, depending on what we tweak, right?So we do run that a lot. We use that in training. Um, we use that in, in like, if you sort of separate out post training from like the scaffolding around it. Cowork sort of exists in the scaffolding space, but obviously we also train on it a little bit. Um, so when we say eval, we mean given the certain transcript, what do the outputs look like?Including the file outputs as well as like the actual token outputs, like the ones that you see in the chat window.Alessio: I'm curious, um, how much of the failure modes are the model intelligence versus like the usage of the end tool to put the intelligence in? Like the well planning is like a good example, right?It's like one thing is to come up with a plan. The other thing is like make a nice spreadsheet. Yeah. That kind of runs you through the plan. Like how have you seen that? Well,Felix: the thing that I grapple with a lot is that whatever scaffolding you come up with, I think we still have a bit of sort of like model overhang where the model is dramatically more capable than right.Users end up using it for. And I think part of that is that we're just not getting the model all the tools to do all the things that's theory capable of, right? There's like one thing, um, however, whenever you do build the scaffolding, I'm sort of wondering at what point, at what point will that scaffolding go away and like how much you invest in figuring out what the right scaffolding is.It's kind of up to, it's a little bit of a bet. And one thing that I as an NJ quite enjoy is that like working in philanthropic and working at a frontier lab, I maybe have a little bit more insight into what's coming, coming down the chute in terms of like, what's the next model, what is the model capable of?What is good at, what is it bad at? And I'm, I'm increasingly wondering, is the right thing for us to like really invest too much in sort of these like scaffolding corrections where the model might otherwise not misbehave, but just not do the thing that you want?Alessio: Yeah.Felix: Or is it to just like give it as many capabilities as possible, try to make those safe so there's the worst case scenarios, likeno status might be otherwise.And then just simply wait a second for the next model drop. I'm personally, currently more leaning into the ladder. I think we're gonna see a lot of like applications and companies that do very impressive things with ai that in the short term might seem very effective ‘cause they're very specialized to individual use cases.But I think once models get better generalization and get better at like those specific use cases without being super guided on those, I'm not sure how long that's gonna stick around. And you can kind of, kind of already see this in like skills and NCP servers, right? Mm-hmm. We've, we've already seen sort of this like slow shift from MCP service to skills.And like, maybe a good example is Barry who made skills. He was initially hacking on something that honestly looked a lot, looked, looked a lot like what Cowork does today. It was sort of thinking about what if cowork, but for like people who don't wanna build code. Mm-hmm. And, um, he too did that as a prototype inside the desktop app.One of the first use cases we thought of were, okay, what, what are like coding like use cases that could really benefit from graphical interfaces and like from being a little separated from the actual underlying code. And everyone comes with the same answers. Data analysis,Alessio: right?Felix: Yeah. Or saying how many users do we have today?How many, like, it's always data analysis. And I think the thing that ultimately led to skills is that we wanted to connect this little prototype to our data warehouse and. The team very quickly discovered that like instead of building a custom tool for the thing to talk our data warehouse, they just like meet and embarked on follow like mm-hmm.Dear Claude, if you want to get data, here's the end point. Here's what the API looks like. You'll figure it out.swyx: Ah.Felix: And then it be hand over control. Yeah, yeah. Also just like maybe go one step up in the layer of abstractions, right. Just, yeah. Instead of, instead of telling the thing, here's ACL I, please call the CLI, or here's an MCP.Please call this ECT shape. Just like this is the end point. If you wanna know something, if you post here, maybe you can do post sql. It's gonna be okay. And that ended up being so effective that they started trying the same pattern of like just giving the model a markdown file that describes whatever it needs to do.That the whole thing eventually became skills and we're like. We should package this up. This is a good idea.swyx: Yeah. Um, we've had Barry Mahesh, uh, on, on our conference and uh, he's uh, definitely got a good idea there.Felix: Yeah.swyx: I wanted to show you the, how I've been using Claude Cowork.Felix: Uh, this is was my favorite part.swyx: This is this. So this is like me, uh, this is how we run the Discord. Uh, we literally, uh, at first I didn't trust Cloud Core. This was my very first usage.Felix: Okay.swyx: Right. So then I was like, okay, I will just try to manually download from Zoom all my recordings and upload it to YouTube. Yeah. Because this is a very laborious process.I got a click, click, click YouTube, um, isn't super user friendly. Uh, and it just did it. And then I was like, actually, you know, even the download from Zoom part, I should also. Put into Claude Cowork, and then I did it right. Here's a bunch of, and it starts compacting here, and it, and it, it starts to even be able to do things like look through the individual frames of the video to name the video so I can upload it auto automatically.Oh, that is, and this replaces my job as a YouTuber. We will forever appreciate your creative Yes. You know, and so that's great. Uh, but then by the way, it compacts and makes, makes like a new thing, right? So I, I don't, I don't have the initial, initial thing, but then I asked it to make its own skills so that it, so that something that's repetitive and one-off and human guided becomes more automated and I can use the skills independently and reuse them.Uh, and it obviously you can write skills and that goes into context and skills at the bottom here, which is, which is so nice. Um, so I have all these skills that, that I now sort of do on a weekly basis. Uh, I know you've released scheduled Coworks, which I haven't done yet, butFelix: course I should try them. I, I think this is like so wonderful and fun for me to see because.One thing that is very fun for me about skills in particular is that they're so easy to make. Like anyone can make a skill, like a text message, could be a skill, and they can be so hyper personalized to you. And this is like sort of the subtraction layer, right? Like, um, I, I'm just guessing, but I assume, heck, you are very good at your job.You're probably given this thing some guidance about how to do it, right? I,swyx: I just said, wrap everything up into, into a skill, right?Felix: Yeah.swyx: And then, uh, and then I was like, actually, sometimes I might need to break, uh, things apart because some parts fail or some parts might be needed in individually. So I told it to split one skill into three skills.So it's like a skill splitting thing, and then there's like a parent skill that just orchestrates all of them if I want to use that. You know, like, um, I think that's, that's like really good. Uh, and, and, uh, there's, there's one more part, which is the, uh, Google Chrome thing that I told you about.Felix: Yeah.swyx: Where I'm like, okay, you know, what's better than uploading, using Claude Coworks to YouTube?Like actually. Looking at the docs to like programmatically upload to YouTube and then putting that in a skill. And I've never done that before. I don't want to deal with Google Cloud. Yeah. So Claude Cowork does it for me.Felix: That is really cool.swyx: So, so I, I just, I don't care. I just, like, I do a thing. I don't, it doesn't really matter.Felix: That is really cool. And then you've, I assume paired the skill just with the script that it's built.swyx: Yeah, no, I just update, update the skills.Felix: Oh, that is beautiful. Yeah. That's wonderful.swyx: It's kind of like a skill, like, uh, uh, basically I think like the way that people ease into Claude Cowork is like take a knowledge work task that you would normally be clicking around for and then, uh, try to turn, turn that, and then you do the, okay, well what if you went further?Okay. And then when, if you went further, when, if you, and it sort of expand the scope of cowork as you gain trust with it and, and also teach it how to replace you.Felix: Yeah. It's like a little bit like playing factorial, but for your own life. Uh, like you say, you start really small.swyx: Yeah.Felix: You start automating something really tiny and like.Once it clicks, you keep adding onto this like automation empire. Just like make your life easier and easier. My favorite skill has been, um, every single morning Kohlberg starts looking at my calendar and make sure that there's conflicts because people tend to schedule a lot of meetings, sometimes last minute, sometimes miss it soft and painful.And a lot of products have existed like that A lot. I've written in the custom prompt there. I haven't made it a skill, um, honestly should.swyx: Yeah.Felix: But I've given it like pretty clear instructions about okay, here are some people, if they book over other meetings, I'm probably gonna go to their meeting. Like if Dario schedules a meeting.swyx: Right.Felix: Not try to reschedule down. Right. Um, and I think there's some other rules in there about like what kind of meetings I care more about what kind of meetings I care less about. What is okay to like, maybe pun like when I want to be, when I want to be working, when I don't want to be working. And it's those really small things that I can think kind of click with people.Right. When we launch co-work, I think one of the US races that went most viral on Twitter. X was clean up your desktop, which is stuff, because silly, that's such a smart thing, right? Like you don't need to model to clean up your desktop. Not really. Um,swyx: like this, like clean up my desktop.Felix: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.swyx: I need to, I need to choose my desktop, right? I guess give it access to my desktop.Felix: Yeah.swyx: Okay. Uh, okay. This is very scary. Oh, we'll do it.Alessio: I did, I did it with my downloads folder. It was like, you have so many term sheets and there's like eight copies of your rental lease for your office. I was like, all right.Like, don't yell at me.Felix: It's like, it's not such a small task. And then like, I, I would never go out there and normally otherwise and tell people I've pulled a product. It can organize your folder. Right. Um, because it feels small. But I think to your point like,swyx: oh, here's, here's the, here's the ask user questions.Felix: Yeah.swyx: Uh,Felix: beautiful. Right. Elite obvious junk. You probably shouldn't click that.Alessio: No.Felix: If he's not done right.swyx: As long as it's reversible, I don'tAlessio: make up blend to,swyx: yeah. Uh, yeah. No, I, I have a, I have a typical, everything is super messy folder. So, yes. I think this, this is super helpful. So this is a pretty simple task.Mm-hmm. But I've, okay, here it is. Right. Here's the progress. I don't see this in, that's why I'm like, this gotta be something different than, uh, than Claude Code, because I'm like, weFelix: do. Yeah. That's, we do system prompt that. We're like, all right. We want you to think about like, this task Yeah. Methodology.Yeah.swyx: And then I can, I can, I can do like little suggestions for, for, for these things. It's beautiful. Look at this. I, I can, I can like say like, oh, don't do that. Don't do this. It's amazing.Felix: I'm so happy. You like it. Um, I mean, the other way around, like we're part of the Clark core team, if you would like this in Clark COVID.swyx: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so, so yeah, I mean, uh, this is really good. Obviously I, I'm like kind of raving about it. Uh, you know, I have other things like sign up for pg e so if you can do phone calls for me, that'd be great. Um, I, I do, peopleFelix: have done that. Obviously you can't do that natively, but people have done that with like, various other providers.swyx: Yeah. Uh, and then this is like signing up for the Figma MCP. Um, I, I really am trying to do like everything, um, data analysis as well. I do think, um, oh, design to code, uh, very, very good. Right? So like, here's a Figma file, take it. And then this is where like a lot of other tasks is like knowledge work, like replace my manual clicking, but this is no, I would normally use Claude Code or uh, Claude Code for this, but because I perceive that you have better Chrome integrationFelix: mm-hmm.swyx: I, I think you can actually do a better job of this. And I, this, this is one shot at my, uh, conference website.Felix: That's pretty cool. Like at some point I would love to like, hear how you feel about code. In the desktop apps, which is like I never use, which is the, the same team. Same team.swyx: So I use the call code in terminal, which I, I perceive to be the default way of cloud coding.Felix: So one thing this has,swyx: sorry, I'm just like, I'm notFelix: here, I'm not here. All products. Can I talk about other stuff? Like I, I'm not sure if people out there wanna like hear me advertise my stuff for like an hour. Please do that. Um, this thing is like a builtin browser, which is a thing a lot of products have said.Yeah, it's a builtin browser. And I think giving cloud eyes into like what you're actually working on makes it so much more effective. And that's probably what you've seen in cohort because it can see Chrome, it can like debug the dom, it can like see things. Um, that does make it more powerful.swyx: Yeah. So, so I think, uh, my mental model was kind broken.‘cause I only use this cowork because I thought it had a, a browser thing in it. But I understand that the Claude Code app. The app version of Claude Code does have a built-in browser. I've seen, I've seen this preview thing.Felix: Yeah.swyx: I just, I've never used it.Felix: But in the end, in the end, you sort of have it by hard.Yeah. You basically get the same thing. Right? Like the, the, the additional skill that you're describing is chart is better if we can see what it's working on. Right. That's, that's sort of like the summary here and like whether it's using your Chromeswyx: Yeah.Felix: Or it's just like making up its own little like browser.It doesn't really make a big difference because either way it's gonna see what it's working on and that just makes it much better. And then you don't have to run QA for your cloud.swyx: Why doesn't it pick up my existing Claude Code sessions? ‘cause I, I mean, obviously I've used Claude Code, but Excellent question.Um, don't have a good answer other than like, we're honest. Just haven't Yeah. This is what the Open AI team does. Okay. Uh, cool. I I I don't have other, like, I, I just, I, I do wanna expand people's minds and also maybe show people if they haven't really done it, but like, I, I think it's very interesting how I sometimes use this more than I use, I mean, I use dia, right?Yeah. Um, I, and I use, uh, I've used like all the other agentic browsers and philanthropic didn't have to build an agentic browser because you just had Claude Cowork and that's enough.Felix: Yeah. I also think like maybe integrating with number of excellent browsers out there, it's like currently on my personal priority list, a little higher than like trying to rebuild a browser from scratch.Yeah. You know, never say never, but I think going back to this idea of like, we wanna plug this into an entire existing workflow, I think our goal is actually to not replace any of the applications we have in your computer. But instead of like, work really well within a new workflow,Alessio: make the new one. Yeah.Are, it seems that nowadays, especially on the browser, most of the innovation is like user ergonomics. It's not really like the underlying browser engine. So I feel like to call it, it doesn't really matter if it's like the, uh, or Chrome or Alice, whatever.Felix: Yeah. We wanna, we wanna meet you wherever you are.Which is like, like obviously I would say that, but it's also just generally true because I don't wanna shrink my potential user base artificially by saying, okay, like, I'm gonna start building for the people who are willing to switch browsers.Alessio: Right.Felix: That's such a, like, you know, like many lawsuits have been filed over who gets to review the browser and like a lot of money has switched hands over the question of like, which browser is default and which search engine is default within the browser.Um, I just wanna build for, yeah, I wanna build for swyx essentially. Like, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna build for people who have a number of annoying tasks that they feel like. Maybe clock could do it. Could do it for them.Alessio: Yeah. What do you think about skills portability? I think there's been one thing, I use another thing called zo, which is kinda like a cloud computer plus agent.And I have a skill to add visitors to the office. Yeah. So whenever somebody has to come in after hours, they need to check in downstairs. Um, but I wanna like text the thing, so it doesn't really work in, in cowork, but now that skill is in the zone harness and it's not in my cowork thing. And then if I make a change, it's gotta, I gotta sync them.How do you see that going? Like I see memory as like. Cloud personal, kinda like, I don't necessarily want my memories to be cross thing.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: But I do want my skills to be cross agent that I use. I think with MTPs, people do the same thing. It's like, oh, Mt. P Gateway. Mt P registry. I don't really know if that's like a business.So I'm curious like if you've had any thoughts in the area.Felix: I think for me, this is sort of where I go back to the really basic primitives for our skills are file-based instead of like this complicated thing that exists inside a place somewhere that is like super proprietary. I'm really leaning into the idea of like, it's all just files and vultures, and that makes it very portable on its own.Right. We do have skills as part of this container format, which was just called plugins.Alessio: Mm-hmm.Felix: And plugins are available both for Claude Code and Claude Code work the same format, and you can install plugins. This works in cowork today. You can basically say, I'm gonna add a whole, like just a GitHub repo as a.Skills marketplace or like a plugin marketplace. And that's how we're doing portability. I think we have a lot of room left to grow in. How do we make it easy for people to know that they can write skills? How do we make it easy for them to just like, share a skill with you? Because obviously all the words I just said, right?Like I'm losing most of the knowledge worker base out there, right. And start by saying, oh, you can connect to GitHub repo. It's not exactly how most people will end up working in like a general knowledge worker space. Um, but I think there's something there. And another thing that's there that I think has not really been properly explored is the, the, the combination of which part of the skill is very portable and then which part of the skill is like very personal to you.Right. And I think that's something we haven't really solved as an industry. Hmm.swyx: It's like, which, how you wanna introduce more structure to the skill or have always have like. Public skill, private skill, you know, pair. Yeah, yeah. Kind of. I think there'sFelix: like a, like the easiest way to do this, which is we do like use string interpolation or something.Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Insert username here, insert like phone number, insert, like known folder, locations, that kind of stuff. Um, that's probably clunky. That's why we haven't built it. Um, but I do think someone is going to come up with like an interesting way to keep everything we like about skills. The portability is just a file, it's just marked down.It's just text, honestly. Right. Like a text file words. The complete lack of structure, which means you don't need any kind of tutorial to write a skill. Just like explain it to Claude the way he would explain it to me and Claude will probably get it before I work. Mm-hmm. Right? You're just like, for booking a flight, tell Claude how to book a flight the same way we tell him somewhere.I just started working here today. But combine that with a very like, personal thing. Um, maybe we'll stick with a booking a flight example. I don't actually think. AI should be booking flights. I think the tools we have is yes.swyx: Yeah. Finally, somebody says it. It's the default demo that everyone's making.Felix: I'mswyx: like, I even against like booking demos, it is not a good showcase.Felix: Yeah. I'm like, I just wanna book my flight myself. But, um, I think there's a lot of things that have a personal and a non-personal component and that's maybe why people reach for flight booking because some things are very universal. Yeah. Super flight is usually better, right? Like few people try to book the most expensive flight.And then some things are quite personal about like what times you prefer, which seat you prefer, which airports you prefer. Combining that and like a skill format that is actually portable, compatible, easy to understand for people. I think that would be very exciting. We just haven't figured it out yet.Alessio: Yeah, I think the text part every, I think everybody by now has some sort of like cloud file thing. Either Dropbox, Google Drive, whatever. So it feels like in a way it should basically like sim link. My skills into all my agent harnesses. Yeah. Just keep those ing like we have internally this like valuable tokens repo, which is like all the commands sub agents.It's good. Uh, and then I build like a TUI where you can start it and be like, you know, install this command and this three sub agents into this agent in this folder and just copy paste this. It doesn't do anything. It literally cp the file into that. But I feel like there should be something similar where like whenever I go into a new thing, it's like, hey, here's like the link to exactly the cloud folder and just bring down these skills into this.Yeah. Like today it doesn't quite work like that. Like if I install a new agent, I cannot, I have to like copy paste all the skills and I don't even know where they are.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: That's like the big problem. It's like where do I find them?Felix: Yeah.Alessio: Um, so I'm curious like in the future like that, that almost feels like my personal productivity thing will be my skills.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: Is not really the product that I use. Everybody has access to the same product. But today there's, that just looks like copy pasting ME files, IFelix: think so many things I, I really like thinking about agents and LLMs just as like another coworker. So many attempts have made to build documentation companies that are like, oh, we're gonna solve oil documentation problems.Um, I myself, like spend a little bit of time working in notion, right? I'm like deeply familiar with the concept of let's get everyone on the same page. Mm-hmm. Right? And what you're basically saying here is you want all your agents to be on the same page about your preferences, about the skills, about the way they ought to work and like how they ought to execute.And I'm not sure what the right thing is going to be if it's going to be some, some company that can say, all right, we're as an independent body, we're not trying to like, push into any particular product. It's our job to be like the skill authority, and we provide, I don't know, we're gonna be the Dropbox of skills and we can just sim link us into all the products we want to use.I'm not sure that's gonna be viable business, but as, as an idea, it would be cool.Alessio: Yeah. Yeah. I think so many things are just going away as businesses. It's like, how am I supposed to do it? I'm not even asking somebody to make a product about it. Like yeah. I wanna personally know. And there's things like you said, it's like you almost wanna skill and then interpolate it between personal and work.So if I'm booking a fly for work, it's different than I'm booking a flight personally.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: In some ways, yeah. But like a lot of the scaffolding is the same, you know? Cool.Felix: I mean, as an engineer I will tell you like, you know, technic a person to technic a person. I will just be like siblings.Alessio: Well that's what, that's what I do.We call that MD and agents that MD's just the same how sim length. And so it is like, that works, but it feels like, yeah, I don't know. MaybeFelix: you can always go one, you can always tell cowork problem and then cowork will solve it for you. Just make the siblings. That's like one way to do it.Alessio: That's true.That's true. All right. Everything is called cowork.Felix: Uh, potentially spicy. Question for both of you.swyx: Uh, which of these industries will go away?Alessio: Okay, so what Felix was saying before is interesting. There's busy like. The short term pressure of like, we need to turn these tokens into valuable things, which is I should build the last mile product that harness the model.And then there's the question of like, long term, which ones are gonna still be valuable? And I think you're kind of seeing this today with like, uh, you know, the coding space in a way is kind of like everybody's moving up and up in stack because you need more than just turning tokens into code. I think search, like enterprise search is kind of saying the same thing.Like with G Clean and like all these different companies is like, at the end of the day, if Cowork is the one doing all the work, the search itself is like such a small part that like, I don't know if I'm really gonna pay that much money just to do search. It's almost like everything is like a cowork vertical.So like how much can cowork first party support?swyx: Mm-hmm.Alessio: And how much can it not? I think for a lot of these things, the planning thing that you were showing do Which one? The planning. The planning.swyx: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.Alessio: That's one thing where like most of the value that these agents provide is like they're better at planning for specific tasks.Yeah. And have better tools for it.swyx: Yeah.Alessio: But I think the models are now moving in that direction and they have the right harnesses and they're on your computer. So for me it's almost like if for the end customer trusts your startup to be the provider of that task result, then I think that works. This is, uh, something that, this is a shortswyx: spike that we're, we're working on.Uh, yeah.Felix: I think, look, I'll, I'll, I'll tell you this, like I don't think I'm the best person to like actually estimate which industry is going to be hit the hardest. But I do think that at philanthropic as a group of people, we're deeply worried about the impact. That the tools are going to have on the labor market, especially for like junior employees that, because I think, I think it's only honest to say that when we talk about automating a lot away, a lot of the work that we personally find annoying that we maybe think's not the best use of our time.In a lot of industries, that kind of work would've been given to a junior entry level employee. Yeah. Right. And I think it's, it's only, it's only right to be really worried about that and like worry what that's going to do in particular to people like enter the shop market.Alessio: Mm-hmm. I have a solution for that.Which you make them, you create simulative jobs for them.Felix: Okay.Alessio: So this is, this is like half joke, half true. So if you think about software engineering, when you're like a junior engineer, you work like 1, 2, 3 years. And in those three years there's like maybe like a handful of moments where like you really learn something.And then a bunch of other days where like you're not really progressing.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: I think now we can use AI and these models to actually like shortcut these careers and almost like simulate the early years of your work and like just make them like super dense and like these learnings, it's like, hey, we're working on this feature, which is like a distributed system and you need to learn this thing that might take three months at a company.And so you take three months here, it's like we're just simulating the whole thing. It's actually not a real thing. And in one week we kind of speed run through the whole thing and you kind of learn your lesson from there. And we kind of repeat that in like one year. You basically get like three years worth of like projects and experience.Yeah. I think it's harder for like things like sales or for things like, you know, marketing because you don't really have a way to get the feedback loop. But I think a lot of it, it sounds kind of silly, it's like you're making the new effect job, but it's almost like you go to college, right? People pay to learn how to do it, and this might feel similar where it's like, hey, we have the.Jane Street Simulator is like, you wanna come work at Jane Street? We'll just put you in the simulator for like three months.Felix: Wow.Alessio: And you'll come out of it. It's like, you know, I'm ready.Felix: So there, there is an aspect here. I'm not an expert enough to like actually know what, what is going to happen to marketing or legal or finance, right?Like, I don't work in those jobs and I, I don't think I should talk about them, but I am an engineer and I think I have a pretty good idea of what engineering is like. And I think one thing we're sort of seeing is that as a company and also as, as the public, we're like deeply worried about entry level, but we're also seeing more senior engineers accelerate it.If like they're more productive. They, they actually increase the value they provide. And the thing that I'm thinking about a lot is the fact that even before all of this happened, um, I've always had a lot of respect for the University of Waterloo and the, the new grads that have joined my teams as from coming from the University of Waterloo always felt like.More ready than new grads will like literally spend their entire time at the university regardless of how good, but never actually had to work inside an environment where you have to ship things that eventually will be used by users. And I'm, I'm, I'm German. I like initially went to German University and I think the, the, the like information systems programs, there tend to be very theoretical, right?Like I often give people the example of like trying
Morse code transcription: vvv vvv Starmer announces 53m support to help with heating oil costs Wary allies show theres no quick fix to Trumps Iran crisis Car park firm NCP collapses with nearly 700 jobs at risk Nightjars make remarkable comeback to South Downs National Park What are the symptoms of meningitis and is there a vaccine Abortion Schoolgirl traumatised after being wrongly sent to England for termination BBC urges court to dismiss Trump Panorama lawsuit Roads closed and screens put up around RAF Fairford Family beyond devastated by meningitis death in Kent outbreak Key Oscars moments as snubbed Timoth e Chalamet becomes butt of jokes
Donal Trump criticises Starmer for not making unilateral decisions on UK involvement in the Iran conflict, Students queuing for antibiotics amid meningitis outbreak, and car park giant NCP on brink of collapse
Morse code transcription: vvv vvv What are the symptoms of meningitis and is there a vaccine Starmer announces 53m support to help with heating oil costs Key Oscars moments as snubbed Timoth e Chalamet becomes butt of jokes BBC urges court to dismiss Trump Panorama lawsuit Abortion Schoolgirl traumatised after being wrongly sent to England for termination Family beyond devastated by meningitis death in Kent outbreak Roads closed and screens put up around RAF Fairford Wary allies show theres no quick fix to Trumps Iran crisis Nightjars make remarkable comeback to South Downs National Park Car park firm NCP collapses with nearly 700 jobs at risk
Morse code transcription: vvv vvv Key Oscars moments as snubbed Timoth e Chalamet becomes butt of jokes Car park firm NCP collapses with nearly 700 jobs at risk Wary allies show theres no quick fix to Trumps Iran crisis Nightjars make remarkable comeback to South Downs National Park Abortion Schoolgirl traumatised after being wrongly sent to England for termination Family beyond devastated by meningitis death in Kent outbreak What are the symptoms of meningitis and is there a vaccine BBC urges court to dismiss Trump Panorama lawsuit Starmer announces 53m support to help with heating oil costs Roads closed and screens put up around RAF Fairford
Morse code transcription: vvv vvv Family beyond devastated by meningitis death in Kent outbreak Car park firm NCP collapses with nearly 700 jobs at risk Key Oscars moments as snubbed Timoth e Chalamet becomes butt of jokes Abortion Schoolgirl traumatised after being wrongly sent to England for termination Roads closed and screens put up around RAF Fairford Starmer announces 53m support to help with heating oil costs Nightjars make remarkable comeback to South Downs National Park BBC urges court to dismiss Trump Panorama lawsuit Wary allies show theres no quick fix to Trumps Iran crisis What are the symptoms of meningitis and is there a vaccine
Send us a text!As Trump recently announced 50-year terms on mortgages, many young families are unsure how they will afford a home. In this episode, we talk with Stephen Totter about his new initiative with Exchequer & Cross, which relies on precious metal backing for an alternative mortgage strategy. This is a patronage project aimed at rebuilding Christendom and solving a huge problem for young families.Join us at the New Christendom Press conference, The War for Normal, this June 11-14 in Ogden, Utah.https://thewarfornormal.com/Did you know supporters of the show get ad-free video and audio episodes delivered early and access to our patron exclusive show the After Hours and interactive live streams with Eric and Brian? https://www.patreon.com/thekingshallOur new books are now in stock and shipping. Save 15% if you order them together! Get them here!This episode is sponsored by: Lux Coffee Company; Caffeinating the New Christendom with artisan roast coffee. Get 15% off your coffee with code "NCP15". https://luxcoffee.co/Armored Republic: Making Tools of Liberty for the defense of every free man's God-given rights - Text JOIN to 88027 or visit: https://www.ar500armor.com/ Talk to Joe Garrisi about managing your wealth with Backwards Planning Financial. https://backwardsplanningfinancial.com/Receive top-tier musical training from Bohnet Music Academy. https://www.bohnetma.com/ncpVisit KeepwisePartners.com or call Derrick Taylor at 781-680-8000 to schedule a free consultation. https://keepwise.partners/Christian business owners go to reformedbusinessalliance.com/ncp and use code NCP to claim your free month. Invest in your business, your family, and your future go to http://Appalachiadigital.com/ncp to book a strategy call.Go to Mt Athos for sustainably sourced goat dairy protein and other performance products. Listeners of the show get a 20% discount site-wide with code "NCP20". https://athosperform.com/Book your free strategy call at https://www.bonifacebusiness.com/ Support the show:https://www.patreon.com/thekingshallSupport the show:https://www.patreon.com/thekingshall Support the show:https://www.patreon.com/thekingshall
Episode Overview: In this practical episode of the Long Term Care RD podcast, Michelle breaks down a real-world sample nutrition care plan for a resident with a stage 3 pressure injury. Drawing from over a decade in SNFs, we cover the Nutrition Care Process step-by-step, MDS requirements, and tips to make your documentation survey-ready while supporting better healing for your older adults. Whether you're juggling MDS deadlines or looking for quick interventions to boost protein intake, this episode is designed to save you time and build your confidence in geriatric wound care.Key Takeaways:How to craft a specific Nutrition Diagnosis (PES statement) for increased protein/energy needs tied to wounds.Setting measurable goals for healing, weight maintenance, and intake — with geriatric nuances like potential weight gain.Multi-layered interventions: From fortified foods and ONS to interdisciplinary referrals (e.g., OT for positioning).Monitoring strategies to stay proactive on quality measures and prevent burnout.A ready-to-adapt sample chart note in SOAP format for your own residents.Resources Mentioned:Downloadable Your FREE RD Starter Kit!: Grab the full example we discussed, including the resident briefing, NCP details, MDS section, and chart note. Available as a free teaser on https://fantastic-frost-95925.myflodesk.com/ggnskwevs8 — perfect for quick reference in your facility.Full Wound Healing Toolkit in Clinical Nutrition Central: For even more depth, join the membership to access downloadable templates for all wound stages, PES statement guides, charting libraries, monthly updates on CMS regs/PDPM, and a community forum for LTC RDs. Designed by someone who's been in your shoes, for RDs working with older adults. Check it out at https://clinicalnutritioncentral.comRelated Blog Post: "Wound Care Dietitian - Step by Step Practical Advice" — Read it free at https://longtermcarerd.com/wound-care-the-dietitians-role2/.Thanks for Listening! If this episode helped you feel a bit more equipped for those wound care challenges, share it with a fellow RD and subscribe for more practical geriatric nutrition tips. Got questions or episode ideas? Drop a comment on the blog or join us in Clinical Nutrition Central. You've got this — let's keep supporting our seniors together.Hosted by Michelle Saari, MS, RD LongTermCareRD.com | ClinicalNutritionCentral.com
At various times in the past, I've talked about the partnership between the NCP and the Silverback Digest, an online journal published by my friend and fellow Vermonter Stephen Morris. Stephen, or Step as his friends call him, defines eclectic: gardener, traveler, writer, musician, editor, publisher—a man of many talents, vocations and avocations. Eclectic also defines the Silverback Digest. It reflects his broad spectrum of curiosity—which is probably what brought us together in the first place. Anyway, Stephen recently published a piece called “Clixed-up Michés,” a play on words of “Mixed-up Cliches.” He wrote it a few years ago. It made me laugh out-loud, so I thought I'd share it with you—the audio version.
Send us a text!Recently, John Moody wrote a series of posts about hypothetical conversations between older and younger women and men. As we go through those posts, Brian and Eric point out why the church often fails to give practical help to younger generations, and why more church programs, retreats, conferences, or book recommendations aren't the particular need of the hour.Instead, we need older men and women who are wise, understand the challenges of the current times, and can lovingly give good advice, practical help, and come alongside younger couples seeking to build productive, godly households.Join us at the New Christendom Press conference, The War for Normal, this June 11-14 in Ogden, Utah.https://thewarfornormal.com/Did you know supporters of the show get ad-free video and audio episodes delivered early and access to our patron exclusive show the After Hours and interactive live streams with Eric and Brian? https://www.patreon.com/thekingshallOur new books are now in stock and shipping. Save 15% if you order them together! Get them here!This episode is sponsored by: Lux Coffee Company; Caffeinating the New Christendom with artisan roast coffee. Get 15% off your coffee with code "NCP15". https://luxcoffee.co/Armored Republic: Making Tools of Liberty for the defense of every free man's God-given rights - Text JOIN to 88027 or visit: https://www.ar500armor.com/ Talk to Joe Garrisi about managing your wealth with Backwards Planning Financial. https://backwardsplanningfinancial.com/Receive top-tier musical training from Bohnet Music Academy. https://www.bohnetma.com/ncpVisit KeepwisePartners.com or call Derrick Taylor at 781-680-8000 to schedule a free consultation. https://keepwise.partners/Christian business owners go to reformedbusinessalliance.com/ncp and use code NCP to claim your free month. Invest in your business, your family, and your future go to http://Appalachiadigital.com/ncp to book a strategy call.Go to Mt Athos for sustainably sourced goat dairy protein and other performance products. Listeners of the show get a 20% discount site-wide with code "NCP20". https://athosperform.com/Book your free strategy call at https://www.bonifacebusiness.com/ Support the show:https://www.patreon.com/thekingshall Support the show:https://www.patreon.com/thekingshall
NCERT को लगाई सुप्रीम कोर्ट ने फटकार, पीएम मोदी के इज़रायल दौरे का दूसरा दिन, यूथ कांग्रेस के महासचिव की ज़मानत याचिका पर फ़ैसला, NCP अजित पवार गुट में बड़ा बदलाव, अजित पवार के विमान हादसे की जांच को लेकर एक्शन में रोहित पवार, अनिल अंबानी आज ईडी मुख्यालय पहुंचे, कनाडा के प्रधानमंत्री कल से भारत की आधिकारिक यात्रा पर, ब्रिटेन ने 85 देशों पर ETA जरूरी किया, और सिर्फ़ 5 मिनट में सुनिए दोपहर 1 बजे तक की बड़ी खबरें
Send us a text!What are we fighting for, saints? Some kind of radical utopia? Some crazy internet fever dream? Something extreme, fringe, cultic, and crazy?No.We're at war for normal. Join us in this episode of the King's Hall, as we discuss the importance of assuming the center and holding frame against the degenerates.Join us at the New Christendom Press conference, The War for Normal, this June 11-14 in Ogden, Utah. https://www.newchristendompress.com/2026 Did you know supporters of the show get ad-free video and audio episodes delivered early and access to our patron exclusive show the After Hours and interactive live streams with Eric and Brian? https://www.patreon.com/thekingshallOur new books are now in stock and shipping. Save 15% if you order them together! Get them here!This episode is sponsored by: Lux Coffee Company; Caffeinating the New Christendom with artisan roast coffee. Get 15% off your coffee with code "NCP15". https://luxcoffee.co/Armored Republic: Making Tools of Liberty for the defense of every free man's God-given rights - Text JOIN to 88027 or visit: https://www.ar500armor.com/ Talk to Joe Garrisi about managing your wealth with Backwards Planning Financial. https://backwardsplanningfinancial.com/Receive top-tier musical training from Bohnet Music Academy. https://www.bohnetma.com/ncpSmall batch, hand-poured candles. Welcome to the resistance. https://resistancecandles.com/Christian business owners go to reformedbusinessalliance.com/ncp and use code NCP to claim your free month. Invest in your business, your family, and your future go to http://Appalachiadigital.com/ncp to book a strategy call.Go to Mt Athos for sustainably sourced goat dairy protein and other performance products. Listeners of the show get a 20% discount site-wide with code "NCP20". https://athosperform.com/Book your free strategy call at https://www.bonifacebusiness.com/ Support the show:https://www.patreon.com/thekingshall
आज लोकसभा सिर्फ़ 13 मिनट तक चली, नीतीश कुमार-राबड़ी देवी के बीच तीखी बहस, पटना में TRE-4 को लेकर अभ्यर्थियों का प्रदर्शन, महाराष्ट्र में 12 जिला परिषद के चुनाव नतीजों की गिनती सुबह से जारी, NCP प्रमुख शरद पवार को अस्पताल में भर्ती कराया गया, असदुद्दीन ओवैसी ने हिमंत बिस्वा सरमा के खिलाफ शिकायत दर्ज कराई, बांग्लादेश में चुनाव प्रचार के दौरान दो दलों में झड़प, भारत-पाक मैच को लेकर अनिश्चितता बरकरार और T20 वर्ल्ड कप में आज स्कॉटलैंड ने इटली को हराया, सिर्फ़ 5 मिनट में सुनिए दोपहर 1 बजे तक की बड़ी ख़बरें
有一種人看起來像天生的業務員，什麼都能賣。 元碩生技創辦人夏筠婷的迷人之處，是她的坦誠，她說：「我就是愛賺錢。」 從大學開始，她做過火鍋店、燒烤店、展場Showgirl，也在教室裡賣透膚絲襪、批行李箱； 一路做中學，一路也踩坑，那些看似狼狽的經歷，後來都變成她重新建立商業邏輯的養分。 她後來選擇走上用個人IP變現的路，從代理到自創品牌，不只賣產品，也把教育、審核、陪跑機制做成系統，讓每個想一起努力的人，能在同一套規則裡走得更遠．．． / 元碩生技 創辦人 夏筠婷 將個人影響力與品牌營運流程系統化，成立 NCP 商學院，協助更多人建立可複製的事業模型。 ／【66.5°N 極光植萃 × 奶寶】夏日E級巨Q計劃組合 從日常營養補給出發，維持外在狀態穩定加分，提升睡眠品質和完美氣色、無論是女性成長期或者孕後，打造絕佳完美的女神保養公式。 / 【清新纖萃 × 億益菌】雙效日常管理組合 促進新陳代謝同時管理生活代謝節奏、拉高營養補給及提升健康機能。 / 【夜皙晶萃】3C族群最佳保養首選 第一次參賽就榮獲比利時金獎肯定，內含秘魯專利高濃度魚油、維生素A、維生素E、葉黃素、蝦紅素、台灣綠蜂膠等頂級保養成分，守護日常生活。 https://hsiavv.bvshop.tw/category/podcast （#此為廠商自行販售，非粉絲團團購） -- Hosting provided by SoundOn
On Wednesday, Maharashtra was hit with the tragic news of NCP leader and Deputy Chief Minister, Ajit Pawar, passing away in a plane crash. Just three days later, in a move that has left many stunned, his wife, Sunetra Pawar, took the oath as the new Deputy Chief Minister of Maharashtra. Why was this transition so swift, and what does it really mean for the future of the NCP or Nationalist Congress Party?See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Send us a text!In a recent article, Samuel Sey called Brian and Eric White Nationalists who commit the sin of racial partiality. We respond, point by point, and in the process refute the leftist framed tactic of mandatory denouncements.Did you know supporters of the show get ad-free video and audio episodes delivered early and access to our patron exclusive show the After Hours and interactive live streams with Eric and Brian? https://www.patreon.com/thekingshallOur new books are now in stock and shipping. Save 15% if you order them together! Get them here!This episode is sponsored by: Lux Coffee Company; Caffeinating the New Christendom with artisan roast coffee. Get 15% off your coffee with code "NCP15". https://luxcoffee.co/Armored Republic: Making Tools of Liberty for the defense of every free man's God-given rights - Text JOIN to 88027 or visit: https://www.ar500armor.com/ Talk to Joe Garrisi about managing your wealth with Backwards Planning Financial. https://backwardsplanningfinancial.com/Visit KeepwisePartners.com or call Derrick Taylor at 781-680-8000 to schedule a free consultation. https://keepwise.partners/Small batch, hand-poured candles. Welcome to the resistance. https://resistancecandles.com/Christian business owners go to reformedbusinessalliance.com/ncp and use code NCP to claim your free month. Invest in your business, your family, and your future go to http://Appalachiadigital.com/ncp to book a strategy call.Go to Mt Athos for sustainably sourced goat dairy protein and other performance products. Listeners of the show get a 20% discount site-wide with code "NCP20". https://athosperform.com/Book your free strategy call at https://www.bonifacebusiness.com/ Join us at the New Christendom Press conference, The War for Normal, this June 11-14 in Ogden, Utah. https://www.newchristendompress.com/2026 Support the show:https://www.patreon.com/thekingshall
After Ajit Pawar's death, calls grow in NCP for wife Sunetra Pawar to take charge of party Economic Survey calls for social media age limit: How this will this tackle digital addiction What's wrong with Virat Kohli's Instagram? Puzzled fans flood Anushka Sharma's comments; ‘Cheeku kaha gaya?' After a successful run at the box office, where it broke several records, the Ranveer Singh-led film Dhurandhar has now moved to an online release on Netflix. The spy thriller, directed by Aditya Dhar, is available to watch on the platform from today, January 30. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
ThePrintAm: Ajit Pawar dies in plane crash: What next for NCP?
First, The Indian Express' Ravi Dutta Misra explains the significance of the free trade agreement between India and the EU, and what India will need to do to actually benefit from it.Next, The Indian Express' Nikhila Henry reports on the spate of stray dog killings in Telangana and what her ground reporting reveals about one such mass killing in the village of Yacharam (16:20).And finally, The Indian Express' Shubhangi Khapre looks at the vacuum left in the NCP after Maharashtra Deputy Chief Minister Ajit Pawar died in a plane crash yesterday (24:58).Hosted by Shashank BhargavaWritten and produced by Shashank Bhargava and Ichha SharmaEdited and mixed by Suresh Pawar
NCP में सत्ता को लेकर खींचतान शुरू. राजकीय सम्मान के साथ हुआ अजित पवार का अंतिम संस्कार. सुप्रीम कोर्ट ने UGC के नए नियमों पर लगाई रोक. सुप्रीम कोर्ट के यूजीसी के नियमों पर रोक का बीजेपी सांसदों ने किया स्वागत. राहुल गांधी से मिले शशि थरूर. संसद में पेश आर्थिक समीक्षा. वेनेजुएला सरकार हर महीने अमेरिका को देगी बजट का हिसाब और ब्रिटेन के प्रधानमंत्री ने की चीन के राष्ट्रपति से मुलाक़ात. सिर्फ 5 मिनट में सुनिए शाम 4 बजे तक की बड़ी खबरें.
Send us a text!Kevin Deyoung recently posted an article on Clearly Reformed in which he offered criticism on the Christian Nationalism movement. Brian and Eric respond to each of the six questions with critiques of their own for Kevin to consider.Did you know supporters of the show get ad-free video and audio episodes delivered early and access to our patron exclusive show the After Hours and interactive live streams with Eric and Brian? https://www.patreon.com/thekingshallOur new books are now in stock and shipping. Save 15% if you order them together! Get them here!This episode is sponsored by: Lux Coffee Company; Caffeinating the New Christendom with artisan roast coffee. Get 15% off your coffee with code "NCP15". https://luxcoffee.co/Armored Republic: Making Tools of Liberty for the defense of every free man's God-given rights - Text JOIN to 88027 or visit: https://www.ar500armor.com/ Talk to Joe Garrisi about managing your wealth with Backwards Planning Financial. https://backwardsplanningfinancial.com/Visit KeepwisePartners.com or call Derrick Taylor at 781-680-8000 to schedule a free consultation. https://keepwise.partners/Small batch, hand-poured candles. Welcome to the resistance. https://resistancecandles.com/Christian business owners go to reformedbusinessalliance.com/ncp and use code NCP to claim your free month. Invest in your business, your family, and your future go to http://Appalachiadigital.com/ncp to book a strategy call.Go to Mt Athos for sustainably sourced goat dairy protein and other performance products. Listeners of the show get a 20% discount site-wide with code "NCP20". https://athosperform.com/Book your free strategy call at https://www.bonifacebusiness.com/ Join us at the New Christendom Press conference, The War for Normal, this June 11-14 in Ogden, Utah. https://www.newchristendompress.com/2026 Support the show:https://www.patreon.com/thekingshall
The BJP has surged ahead of the NCP–NCP (Sharadchandra Pawar) combine in the civic body elections across key cities in Maharashtra, including Pune and Pimpri Chinchwad. According to early trends and results declared on Friday, the party appears to be consolidating its hold on urban local bodies—but what exactly do the numbers tell us?See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Send us a text!This is our first installment of a series we'll be returning to periodically throughout the year that we're calling simply "The Tactical Series".In this one we walk through the "Why" and the "What" of the general classification of weapons optics known as "Red Dots" as well as some our personal preferences for when and how we would apply these different options.Hang around later as we take these optics out on the range to do some testing and work through additional optic specifications.This episode's Headline Sponsor is: Lux Coffee Company; Caffeinating the New Christendom with artisan roast coffee. Get 15% off your coffee with code "NCP15". https://luxcoffee.co/Fuel your training with Mt. Athos — The path to peak performance. https://athosperform.com/Be prepared. Be armored. Get your American-made body armor from Armored Republic at ArmoredRepublic.comTalk to Joe Garrisi about managing your wealth with Backwards Planning Financial. https://www.backwardsplanningfinancial.comVisit KeepwisePartners.com or call Derrick Taylor at 781-680-8000 to schedule a free consultation. https://keepwise.partners/Small batch, hand-poured candles. Welcome to the resistance. https://resistancecandles.com/Christian business owners go to http://reformedbusinessalliance.com/ncp and use code NCP to claim your free month.Invest in your business, your family, and your future. Go to http://appalachiadigital.com/ncp to book a strategy call.Our new books are now in stock and shipping. https://www.newchristendompress.com/bonifaceoption-revilingwives-15-offSupport the show
Send us a text!Henry Ford built an incredible company that he intended to pass down to his sons. And for awhile, that's exactly what he did. But because of excessive wealth taxes, his sons eventually started the Ford Foundation. Today, it is a liberal non profit that has been hijacked by intelligence agencies and grotesque agendas. How did this happen? We'll also discuss Johann Kurtz's book, "Leaving a Legacy." How can we build families and businesses that last for a thousand years? We'll talk about the principles and strategies in this episode with Brian, Dan, and Eric. Did you know supporters of the show get ad-free video and audio episodes delivered early and access to our patron exclusive show the After Hours and interactive live streams with Eric and Brian? https://www.patreon.com/thekingshallThis episode is sponsored by: Lux Coffee Company; Caffeinating the New Christendom with artisan roast coffee. Get 15% off your coffee with code "NCP15". https://luxcoffee.co/Armored Republic: Making Tools of Liberty for the defense of every free man's God-given rights - Text JOIN to 88027 or visit: https://www.ar500armor.com/ Talk to Joe Garrisi about managing your wealth with Backwards Planning Financial. https://backwardsplanningfinancial.com/Visit KeepwisePartners.com or call Derrick Taylor at 781-680-8000 to schedule a free consultation. https://keepwise.partners/Christian business owners go to reformedbusinessalliance.com/ncp and use code NCP to claim your free month. Invest in your business, your family, and your future go to http://Appalachiadigital.com/ncp to book a strategy call.Go to Mt Athos for sustainably sourced goat dairy protein and other performance products. Listeners of the show get a 20% discount site-wide with code "NCP20". https://athosperform.com/Book your free strategy call at https://www.bonifacebusiness.com/ Join us at the New Christendom Press conference, The War for Normal, this June 11-14 in Ogden, Utah. https://www.newchristendompress.com/2026 Support the show:https://www.patreon.com/thekingshall
अरावली विवाद पर आज सुप्रीम कोर्ट की सुनवाई, उन्नाव रेप केस को लेकर सुनवाई, विशाखापट्टनम के पास ट्रेन में आग से एक की मौत, अजित पवार ने NCP गठबंधन का ऐलान किया, दिल्ली में कोहरे से उड़ानें-ट्रेनें प्रभावित, यूपी सीएम योगी ने AI आधारित पुलिस कार्रवाई के निर्देश दिए, अमित शाह का असम दौरा कोहरे से टला, ट्रंप-जेलेंस्की बैठक में शांति योजना पर सहमति बढ़ी, मेक्सिको ट्रेन हादसे में 13 की मौत और भारतीय महिला टीम ने श्रीलंका को हराया, सिर्फ़ 5 मिनट में सुनिए सुबह 10 बजे तक की बड़ी ख़बरें.
उन्नाव रेप केस को लेकर सुप्रीम कोर्ट में सुनवाई, अरावली रेंज मामले में कोर्ट ने क्या कहा, अजित पवार की NCP और शरद पवार गुट में होगा गठबंधन, अमित शाह आज असम दौरे पर, दिल्ली एयरपोर्ट-रेलवे पर कोहरे से उड़ानें और ट्रेनें प्रभावित रहीं, चांदी 6 फीसदी उछलकर रिकॉर्ड पार पहुंचा, चीन ने ताइवान के आसपास बड़े सैन्य अभ्यास शुरू, ईरान में मौत की सज़ाएं दोगुने से ज्यादा होने का अनुमान, ईरानी राष्ट्रपति ने अमेरिका-इज़राइल-यूरोप से टकराव की बात कही और विजय हज़ारे ट्रॉफी में कई वेन्यू पर मुकाबले जारी, सिर्फ़ 5 मिनट में सुनिए दोपहर 1 बजे तक की बड़ी ख़बरें
Send us a text!The Christmas Day Coronation of Kings, fighting the good fight with joy and mirth, laughing and singing in the midst of battle, and more on this episode of The Hard Men Podcast.If you're wondering what to get us for Christmas, a Hard Men Patreon membership for yourself would sure put a smile on our faces.Merry Christimas and Happy New Year!This episode's Headline Sponsor is: Lux Coffee Company; Caffeinating the New Christendom with artisan roast coffee. Get 15% off your coffee with code "NCP15". https://luxcoffee.co/Fuel your training with Mt. Athos — The path to peak performance. https://athosperform.com/Be prepared. Be armored. Get your American-made body armor from Armored Republic at ArmoredRepublic.comTalk to Joe Garrisi about managing your wealth with Backwards Planning Financial. https://www.backwardsplanningfinancial.comVisit KeepwisePartners.com or call Derrick Taylor at 781-680-8000 to schedule a free consultation. https://keepwise.partners/Small batch, hand-poured candles. Welcome to the resistance. https://resistancecandles.com/Christian business owners go to http://reformedbusinessalliance.com/ncp and use code NCP to claim your free month.Invest in your business, your family, and your future. Go to http://appalachiadigital.com/ncp to book a strategy call.Our new books are now in stock and shipping. https://www.newchristendompress.com/bonifaceoption-revilingwives-15-offOur new books are now in stock and shipping. https://www.newchristendompress.com/bonifaceoption-revilingwives-15-offSupport the show
Mohammad Motaleb Sikder, NCP central organiser in Khulna, was shot in the head. He is currently out of danger, according to local media reports.----more----https://theprint.in/diplomacy/after-osman-hadi-another-bangladesh-student-leader-shot-in-khulna-amid-surge-in-violence-ahead-of-polls/2810578/
The December issue of NCP focuses on translation science with an interview by Dr. Dante Yeh, an acute care surgeon at Denver Health Medical Center. Dr. Yeh is the guest editor for the December edition on NCP and he discussions his passion for this topic that led to his role editing this special edition. Dr. Yeh gives several practical applications of translation science in the field of nutrition support. Business Corporate by Alex Menco | alexmenco.net Music promoted by www.free-stock-music.com Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/deed.en_US December 2025
Send us a text!Conservatives are quick these days to attack the downstream effects of feminism like transgenderism and rampant pornography, but we tend to flinch when First Wave Feminism is mentioned.If we are to rid our society of these evils and return to the God-ordained vision for the household then this ideology must be addressed from its inception.Where did Feminist ideology begin?Who were the original key players?We'll answer these questions and more in this episode of the Hard Men Podcast.If you'd like to submit questions for us to answer on our next Q&A sign-up on Patreon!This episode's Headline Sponsor is: Lux Coffee Company; Caffeinating the New Christendom with artisan roast coffee. Get 15% off your coffee with code "NCP15". https://luxcoffee.co/Fuel your training with Mt. Athos — The path to peak performance. https://athosperform.com/Be prepared. Be armored. Get your American-made body armor from Armored Republic at ArmoredRepublic.comTalk to Joe Garrisi about managing your wealth with Backwards Planning Financial. https://www.backwardsplanningfinancial.comVisit KeepwisePartners.com or call Derrick Taylor at 781-680-8000 to schedule a free consultation. https://keepwise.partners/Small batch, hand-poured candles. Welcome to the resistance. https://resistancecandles.com/Christian business owners go to http://reformedbusinessalliance.com/ncp and use code NCP to claim your free month.Invest in your business, your family, and your future. Go to http://appalachiadigital.com/ncp to book a strategy call.Support the show
Send us a text!In this episode we talk about Family Christmas Traditions.Why are family traditions important?What traditions formed us?And what traditions do we want to pass on to our children?If you'd like to submit questions for us to answer on our next Q&A sign-up on Patreon!Check out https://www.NewChristendomPress.com/store for our Black Friday deals! Orders over $75 will get 15% off at checkout!This episode's Headline Sponsor is: Lux Coffee Company; Caffeinating the New Christendom with artisan roast coffee. Get 15% off your coffee with code "NCP15". https://luxcoffee.co/Fuel your training with Mt. Athos — The path to peak performance. https://athosperform.com/Be prepared. Be armored. Get your American-made body armor from Armored Republic at ArmoredRepublic.comTalk to Joe Garrisi about managing your wealth with Backwards Planning Financial. https://www.backwardsplanningfinancial.comVisit KeepwisePartners.com or call Derrick Taylor at 781-680-8000 to schedule a free consultation. https://keepwise.partners/Small batch, hand-poured candles. Welcome to the resistance. https://resistancecandles.com/Christian business owners go to http://reformedbusinessalliance.com/ncp and use code NCP to claim your free month.Invest in your business, your family, and your future. Go to http://appalachiadigital.com/ncp to book a strategy call.BLACK FRIDAY DISCOUNTS: https://www.newchristendompress.com/storeSupport the show
First, The Indian Express' National Legal Editor Apurva Vishwanath talks about Uttar Pradesh government's decision to withdraw a case against those accused in the 2015 Dadri lyncing incident.Next, we speak to the Indian Express' Diplomatic Affairs Editor Shubhajit Roy who discusses the death sentence handed to former Bangladesh Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina, and the diplomatic dilemma it poses for India. (10:40)In the end, we take a look at the deportation and arrest of Gangster Anmol Bishnoi, the alleged mastermind behind the murder of NCP leader Baba Siddique. (24:40)Hosted by Ichha SharmaWritten and produced by Shashank Bhargava and Ichha SharmaEdited and produced by Vijay Doipodhe
Anmol Bishnoi, younger brother of jailed gangster Lawrence Bishnoi and accused in the murder of NCP leader Baba Siddique, is set to be brought back to India. His deportation process has been completed.
Send us a text!In this episode of the Hard Men Podcast Tate and Ethan sit down and answer some recent questions from our Patrons on a host of topics.If you'd like to submit questions for us to answer on our next Q&A sign-up on Patreon!This episode's Headline Sponsor is: Lux Coffee Company; Caffeinating the New Christendom with artisan roast coffee. Get 15% off your coffee with code "NCP15". https://luxcoffee.co/Fuel your training with Mt. Athos — The path to peak performance. https://athosperform.com/Be prepared. Be armored. Get your American-made body armor from Armored Republic at ArmoredRepublic.comTalk to Joe Garrisi about managing your wealth with Backwards Planning Financial. https://www.backwardsplanningfinancial.comVisit KeepwisePartners.com or call Derrick Taylor at 781-680-8000 to schedule a free consultation. https://keepwise.partners/Small batch, hand-poured candles. Welcome to the resistance. https://resistancecandles.com/Christian business owners go to http://reformedbusinessalliance.com/ncp and use code NCP to claim your free month.Invest in your business, your family, and your future. Go to http://appalachiadigital.com/ncp to book a strategy call.Save 15% when you pre-order both books!White Knights and Reviling Wives.The Boniface Option.Support the show
Send us a text!Many of you have asked where Eric has been, and if he's ever coming back. Well, we finally tracked him down.In this episode of the Hard Men Podcast, Eric returns to discuss leadership, delegation, organization building, and succession plans.This episode's Headline Sponsor is: Lux Coffee Company; Caffeinating the New Christendom with artisan roast coffee. Get 15% off your coffee with code "NCP15". https://luxcoffee.co/Fuel your training with Mt. Athos — The path to peak performance. https://athosperform.com/Be prepared. Be armored. Get your American-made body armor from Armored Republic at ArmoredRepublic.comTalk to Joe Garrisi about managing your wealth with Backwards Planning Financial. https://www.backwardsplanningfinancial.comVisit KeepwisePartners.com or call Derrick Taylor at 781-680-8000 to schedule a free consultation. https://keepwise.partners/Small batch, hand-poured candles. Welcome to the resistance. https://resistancecandles.com/Christian business owners go to http://reformedbusinessalliance.com/ncp and use code NCP to claim your free month.Invest in your business, your family, and your future. Go to http://appalachiadigital.com/ncp to book a strategy call.Support the show
What does male self care mean to you? Remember, there are no right or wrong answers to this question; to Luke it means going to a football match alone. To Peter it's a dog walk and a wank. Do whatever works for you. Today on The Luke and Pete Show, Peter is dropping extortionate amounts of money in the NCP, Luke is drinking shandies and doesn't care who judges him (he definitely does), and we explore further why a man has bought the Commodore brand. Oh, and we may have to prise open the Battery Daddy again...Email us at hello@lukeandpeteshow.com or you can get in touch on X, Threads or Instagram if character-restricted messaging takes your fancy.Please fill out Stak's listener survey! It'll help us learn more about the content you love so we can bring you even more - you'll also be entered into a competition to win one of five PlayStation 5's! Click here: https://bit.ly/staksurvey2025 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
हमले के बाद दिल्ली की CM रेखा गुप्ता का बयान, बीजेपी विधायक हरीश खुराना की शेयर की हुई तस्वीर पर AAP का जवाब, NCP विधायक पर करोड़ों के घोटाले के आरोप पर बोले फडणवीस, PM/CM हटाने वाले बिल पर विपक्ष ने जताई नाराज़गी, भारत ने किया अग्नि-5 मिसाइल का सफल परीक्षण, वोटर अधिकार यात्रा में शामिल होंगे अखिलेश यादव, CSDS अधिकारी पर FIR दर्ज और Alliance Air फ्लाइट में आई तकनीकी खराबी. सिर्फ 5 मिनट में सुनिए रात 9 बजे तक की बड़ी ख़बरें.
Send us a text!Dan, Brian, and Eric discuss the recent NCP conference, including what they learned from a host of great speakers, including Andrew Isker, Joel Webbon, and Stephen Wolfe. We break down the New Christian Right, as well as the first annual New Christendom Games. Did you know supporters of the show get ad-free video and audio episodes delivered early and access to our patron exclusive shows The Deus Vault and After Hours?https://www.patreon.com/thekingshallAre you a business owner looking to strengthen your cyber security? Armored Haven is here to help you.https://www.armoredhaven.com/Talk to Joe Garrisi about managing your wealth with Backwards Planning Financial.https://backwardsplanningfinancial.com/This episode is brought to you by Mt Athos. Sustainably sourced goat dairy protein and other performance products. Listeners of the show get a 20% discount site-wide with code "NCP20".https://athosperform.com/Visit KeepwisePartners.com or call Derrick Taylor at 781-680-8000 to schedule a free consultation.https://keepwise.partners/Looking for a reformed design partner? Check out LivingStones Studios.https://livingstones.studio/Looking for that perfect cigar tray? Check out Rooted Pines Homestead hand crafted cigar tray: https://www.rootedpineshomestead.com/product-page/cigar-trayThis episode is also sponsored by Stonecrop Wealth Advisors! Go to this link to check out their special offers to King's Hall listeners today.https://stonecropadvisors.com/kingshallVisit Muzzle-Loaders.com and get 10% off your first order when you use the coupon code KINGSHALL at checkout.https://muzzle-loaders.com/Check out the Farmer Bill's Provisions's products. Click the link below to claim 20% off.https://farmerbillsprovisions.com/discount/KINGSSupport the show:https://www.patreon.com/thekingshall
On this episode of NCP the guys have their normal everyd——— please hold buffering…..
This is the Catchup on 3 Things by The Indian Express and I'm Flora Swain.Today is the 14th of May and here are the headlines.BSF jawan Poornam Kumar Shaw, who accidentally crossed into Pakistan during a patrol on April 23 near Punjab's Ferozepur sector, was handed back to India on Wednesday morning via the Attari Joint Check Post. A resident of West Bengal, Shaw was in Pakistani custody for 21 days, during a time of heightened border tensions following the Pahalgam terror attack in Jammu and Kashmir. The 73rd battalion of the BSF is deployed in the area. His return marks a resolution to the cross-border incident that had drawn national concern.Maharashtra Deputy Chief Minister and NCP leader Ajit Pawar clarified on Tuesday night that no merger discussions have taken place between his faction and the Sharad Pawar-led NCP. Speaking at a weekly party meeting in Mumbai, Ajit Pawar addressed his legislators directly, urging them not to believe merger rumors. He emphasized transparency and assured them there was no confusion on his stance. The clarification comes amid growing speculation about reunification, which has sparked political buzz ahead of upcoming elections in Maharashtra.India's Operation Sindoor precision strikes destroyed nearly 20% of Pakistan Air Force infrastructure and multiple fighter jets, official sources said Tuesday. The strikes targeted key bases like Sargodha and Bholari, which housed F-16s and JF-17s, in retaliation to Pakistani drone and missile attacks. Over 50 people, including Squadron Leader Usman Yusuf, were killed in Bholari. India also hit ammunition depots and several other airbases across Pakistan. Satellite imagery confirmed major damage. The strikes mark a significant strategic and psychological blow to Pakistan's military capabilities.US President Donald Trump met Syria's interim President Ahmed al-Sharaa in Riyadh after unexpectedly lifting all sanctions on Syria's Islamist-led government. The move, revealed Wednesday, represents a sharp turn in US foreign policy. Sharaa, a former al Qaeda commander who ousted Assad and later renounced extremism, has led Syria since December. The meeting occurred during Trump's Gulf tour, which also included $600 billion in Saudi investment pledges and $142 billion in arms deals. The shift has drawn criticism from Israel and US officials concerned about Sharaa's militant past.At least 48 people, including 22 children, were killed in Israeli airstrikes on Jabaliya in northern Gaza between Tuesday night and early Wednesday. Hospitals, including the Indonesian Hospital, reported high casualties from strikes that hit residential zones. The attacks followed the release of an Israeli-American hostage by Hamas, briefly raising hopes of de-escalation. Israel had issued evacuation warnings, citing Hamas military targets in the area. However, many civilians remained. The Israeli military declined to comment. The strikes have intensified international concerns about rising civilian casualties in Gaza.That's all for today. This was the Catchup on 3 Things by The Indian Express.
Maharashtra ministers Dhananjay Munde of Ajit Pawar-led NCP and Nitesh Rane of BJP are under opposition fire. Both are not new to controversy.
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