The TeachThought Podcast

Drew Perkins welcomes neuroscientist and acclaimed author Jared Cooney Horvath to dissect his new book, The Digital Delusion, which provides a rigorous, evidence-based critique of edtech. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Horvath doesn't mince words, arguing that the majority of student-facing, internet-connected devices should be removed from schools. He reveals that over 60 years of consistent data supports his claim that the integration of digital tools is fundamentally detrimental to effective learning. This isn't a Luddite's complaint; it's a detailed exploration of the Neuroscience of Learning. The harm is explained through three primary biological mechanisms, which Horvath asserts are unfixable with software. First, screens train students to multitask, leading to a constant, detrimental battle for attention in a learning environment. Second, the use of devices inhibits the essential human-to-human interaction necessary for empathetic synchrony—the mirroring and mimicking critical for deep cognitive and social development. Finally, we discuss the profound problem of Transfer of Learning. Horvath explains that by learning skills in an "easy" digital context, the ability to transfer that knowledge to a more complex, real-life (analog) task is significantly diminished, making the learning "slower, worse, and less deep." The data suggests tech only works in highly narrow contexts, primarily for surface-level "drill and kill" facts or basic remediation, often through intelligent tutors. The conversation then shifts to the persistent educational conflicts, notably the ongoing tension between Explicit Instruction vs Inquiry and Project-Based Learning (PBL). Horvath connects the rigidity of entrenched positions to a "sunk cost" phenomenon, where individuals find it too "costly" to change their public stance, even when facing opposing evidence. We delve into the complexities of teaching, noting that both traditional and progressive approaches are valid at different points in a student's journey, but both are fundamentally flawed when they adhere rigidly to a single philosophy. Furthermore, we explore the nature of Critical Thinking Skills and creativity. Horvath clarifies that while the mechanism for critical thinking is innate across all ages, its output is heavily constrained by the individual's available domain-specific knowledge. The science of learning, he argues, has nothing to say about specific pedagogy (such as direct instruction versus exploratory learning); it only describes the biological constraints of how the brain learns. Therefore, neuroscience should serve as a powerful tool to inform and improve any existing pedagogical approach, not dictate a single one. Horvath offers a vision for the ideal classroom, suggesting elementary spaces should be "basically outdoor," focused on play and minimal tech. For older students, he advocates for a high level of control, confining computer use to specialized lab settings—much like woodshop or physical education. This perspective provides an essential counter-narrative for any K-12 educator or administrator struggling to balance modern tools with effective, long-term student success. To continue exploring innovative, evidence-based strategies, subscribe to the ThoughtStretchers Podcast on your favorite podcast player! Timestamped Episode Timeline Time Segment/Topic [00:00] Introduction of Jared Cooney Horvath – Teacher-turned-neuroscientist, focus on "human learning" and applying neuroscience to educational practices. [01:28] Jared's Educational Background and Views on Pedagogy – Describing his K-12 experience as a "mishmash" that didn't adhere rigidly to "traditional" or "progressive" labels. [03:45] The Digital Delusion Book & EdTech Critique – Introducing the book and its core argument: edtech fundamentally harms learning, advocating for reducing/eliminating non-essential computer use in classrooms. [07:18] EdTech and Learning Outcomes/The Swedish Example – Advocating for removing student-facing, internet-connected devices; citing Sweden's ban on general tech use in schools (confining computers to a lab). [08:09] Exceptions for Technology Use – Tech only works effectively in narrow contexts: self-adaptive "intelligent tutors" for surface-level (drill and kill) learning and remediation. [09:46] Mechanisms of EdTech Harm (Biological) – Outlining the three primary ways screens harm learning: Attention, Empathetic Synchrony, and Transfer. [12:29] Transfer and Complexity in Learning – Discussion on how learning in an easy digital context makes skill transfer to a harder, real-life analog context almost impossible. [15:54] AI, Pedagogy, and Creating Learning Tools – Drew's example of using AI for quizzes; Jared's counter that learning is "slower, worse, and less deep" than if the student created the tools themselves. [18:07] The Ideal Classroom – Jared's vision for elementary (outdoor, play-focused, minimal tech) and middle/high school (human-element focus, highly controlled tech use in a lab). [20:17] Critical Thinking and Metacognition – Discussion on the definition of critical thinking, with Jared suggesting metacognition is a more accurate term for the process. [23:02] The Role of Knowledge in Critical Thinking – The mechanism is universal, but the outcome of critical thinking without knowledge is "very very narrow or pointless." [27:43] Creativity and Questioning – Defining creativity as "rearranging of your current memory structures." The role of knowledge and safety/context in the ability to ask good questions. [35:47] Tension Between Traditional and Progressive Education – Observing the acute conflict in Australia/UK; asserting both approaches are correct at different points but wrong when they are too rigid. [40:34] Science of Learning and Pedagogy – Stressing that the science of learning only concerns biological mechanisms and should inform teaching, not dictate a specific pedagogy. [43:08] AI Model Training and Pedagogical Parallels – Drew's question on parallels between AI's "symbolism" vs. "connectivism" and educational philosophies. [44:15] Critique of AI and Cognitive Models – Jared's view that AI conceptualization has mistakenly influenced brain understanding and that current AI models may be at a peak without a new theoretical framework. [46:02] Book and Contact Information – Sharing website (www.lmegglobal.net), new book (The Digital Delusion), and YouTube channel. [46:47] Closing Remarks – Final thoughts on recognizing the "gray zone" in complex educational issues.  

In this episode of the ThoughtStretchers podcast, host Drew Perkins talks with Dr. Barbara Oakley, distinguished professor of engineering and co-instructor of the celebrated Learning How to Learn course, to discuss her critical opinion piece: Censorship Hurts Our Brains: Why Neuroscience Confirms the Importance of Free Speech. They dive deep into the neural mechanisms behind free expression, the challenges facing K-12 education, and the dangers of sacrificing liberty for perceived order. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode + Video Podcast Show Notes & Main Discussion Points: Neuroscience and Free Speech: Dr. Oakley explains that exposure to differing viewpoints is essential for cognitive flexibility and how emotional upset literally impedes rational thought when we engage with challenging ideas. The 'Cult of Safety': We examine how the modern pursuit of "safe spaces" can ironically lead to a heightened acceptance of hostility toward people with different political views. K-12 Education & Free Speech: We explore the difficulty of promoting civic thought in K-12, noting the tension between academic freedom and the need for interventions to overcome ineffective educational practices. Critique of Constructivism: Dr. Oakley argues that pure constructivism in education is "completely opposed... to neuroscience," and suggests a balanced "knowledge-rich inquiry" model, guided by Socratic questioning, as a more effective path to true learning. Order vs. Liberty: Finally, we discuss how a perceived loss of public safety and order can make a population more willing to compromise essential liberties, including free speech. Time-Stamped Highlights: The Neuroscience of Free Speech (00:07:01): Dr. Oakley explains how engaging with opposing viewpoints—especially through her free Massive Open Online Course (MOOC) on the neurocognitive perspective of free speech—is vital for building cognitive flexibility. The Cult of Safety (00:20:17): Barbara Oakley discusses the "cult of safety" and how the swift transition from the pursuit of safe spaces to the acceptance of hostility toward people with differing political beliefs is a worrying trend. Emotional Upset vs. Rational Thought (00:23:15): A key takeaway from the neuroscience perspective is that emotional upset makes rational, conscientious engagement with an upsetting topic extremely difficult. The best approach is to manage emotions and seek to understand why people hold their beliefs. The Dilemma of K-12 Civic Education (00:10:59): Drew Perkins highlights the struggle to promote civic thought and enlightenment tradition principles in schools, noting that the lack of connection to test scores often pushes these initiatives aside. Government Intervention & 'Paradigm Cartels' (00:13:37): They discuss the tension between academic freedom and the occasional necessity of legislative intervention to overcome entrenched, ineffective beliefs in education, citing the "reading wars" and the mandate of phonics instruction as an example. The Dangers of Anti-Liberal Movements (00:30:52): Drew Perkins explores the growing "post-liberal and/or anti-liberal" movements on both the political right and left, expressing concern that these forces are dangerously pushing against the fundamental issue of free speech. Constructivism vs. Neuroscience (00:39:41): Dr. Oakley argues that the pervasive influence of pure constructivism in K-12 is "completely opposed... to neuroscience," citing negative learning outcomes in places like New Zealand, where a student-centered approach has been extensively applied. The Power of Knowledge-Rich Inquiry (00:45:29): They align on a knowledge-rich inquiry model, where a teacher uses Socratic questioning to narrow the "potential solution space," leading the student to the final 'aha' moment and strengthening the neural connection, which is a key part of effective teaching. Loss of Order and Compromising Liberty (00:38:40): The conversation concludes by linking the loss of public order and stability to a population's increased willingness to sacrifice liberties, like free speech, in exchange for a feeling of safety and for the metaphorical "trains to run on time."

Drew Perkins welcomes Gary Schiffman and Jon Bassett of 4QM Teaching to the podcast to discuss their new US History curriculum and the principles behind their innovative Four Question Method. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode This conversation explores the gap between traditional inquiry-based learning and the need for explicit instruction in historical content and disciplinary thinking. Gary and Jon explain how their curriculum is designed to support "ordinary teachers" and build students' capacity for civil disagreement by grounding critical thinking in a robust body of knowledge. Key Takeaways & Discussion Points The Power of the 4QM Method: We detail why 4QM Teaching shifted from consulting to developing a full curriculum, recognizing the need for a practical vehicle to implement their teaching framework in the classroom. The Four Question Framework: Learn the four core questions that anchor every lesson and build specific historical thinking skills: Q1: What happened? (The skill of Narration and Storytelling) Q2: What were they thinking? (The skill of Interpretation of documents) Q3: Why then and there? (The skill of Explanation and causation) Q4: What do we think about that? (The skill of Judgment and civil discourse) Knowledge-Rich Inquiry: Jon and Gary firmly assert their position in the "knowledge first" camp, arguing that deep critical thinking is domain specific. They share why "structure is liberating" when students are equipped with a strong base of historical facts. Teaching Civil Disagreement: Discover how separating the "judgment" question (Q4) allows students to practice the art of civil disagreement in a structured, reasoned way, even when addressing controversial historical topics. Time-Stamped Topics Key moments in the discussion: 06:52 - The origin story and philosophical foundation of the Four Question Method (4QM Teaching). 10:41 - A detailed breakdown of the four questions: Narration, Interpretation, Explanation, and Judgment. 14:20 - Why 4QM Teaching finally decided to write a full US History curriculum. 21:45 - How Question 4 teaches the "art of civil disagreement" (and the related work of Natalie Wexler). 36:14 - The argument that critical thinking is entirely domain-specific in advanced fields. 52:09 - Simplifying the curriculum to reduce cognitive load with four transparent lesson types.

Drew Perkins talks with Lauren Brown, Jonathan Dallimore, and Aaron Aastor about the role of facts and critical thinking in teaching history. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins and guest co-host, Melinda Karshner, talk with Timothy Shanahan about his new book, Leveled Reading, Leveled Lives, How Students' Reading Achievement Has Been Held Back and What We Can Do About It. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Shane Leaning about his new book, Change Starts Here: What If Everything Your School Needed Was Right in Front of You? Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Heidi Boghosian about her book, Cyber Citizens: Saving Democracy with Digital Literacy. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode  

Drew Perkins talks with George Lilley, a veteran teacher from Australia, about his critiques of the work of John Hattie, and the Science of Learning. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with return guest, Ronn Nozoe, CEO of the National Association of Secondary School Principals (NASSP). Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Vladimir Kogan about his new book, No Adult Left Behind: How Politics Hijacks Education Policy and Hurts Kids. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Rod Naquin about balancing educational research with practice as he returns to the classroom after 7 years doing educational leadership work. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Jim Heal and Rebekah Berlin about their new book, Mental Models: How understanding the mind can transform the way you work and learn. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Karen Vaites about navigating educational tribalism, the "Science of Learning," and the impact of knowledge-rich, coherent curricula on student outcomes. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Rachel Curtis and Liz City, co-authors of the book Leading Strategically: Achieving Ambitious Goals in Education. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Christina LaRose about her work with the Prohuman Foundation to develop a curriculum focused on learning character through literature. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Michael Strong, founder of The Socratic Experience, a K–12 high-touch virtual school that equips students through Socratic dialogue, 1:1 mentoring, and creative and entrepreneurial projects. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with teacher-educator Rachael Jefferson about her Education HQ article from an interview that is critical of the Science of Learning movement. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Shane Leaning as a guest on his Education Leaders podcast about how to have conversations that focus on nuance, complexity, and understanding. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Songyee Yoon, author and founder and managing partner of the venture capital firm Principal Venture Partners (PVP), where she focuses on investing in AI-native companies transforming industries. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with teacher and author, Richard Bustin, about his book What Are We Teaching? Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins is joined by Andrew Watson, Dr. Cindy Nebel, and Fox Demoisey to discuss the intersections between the Science of Learning, project-based learning, and inquiry. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Tim Minella, Senior Constitutionalism Fellow at The Goldwater Institute, about their work to eliminate DEI in higher education. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins is joined by educators and DEI practitioners Carlos Hoyt, Daryl Sinclair, and Nunana Nyomi for a salon-style conversation about the complexities and nuances of DEI. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode  

Drew Perkins talks with Bruce Robertson about his new book, Power Up Your Questioning: A Practical Handbook for Teachers. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode    

Drew Perkins talks with Dr. Abraham George about his work to help children transcend India's caste system through education and his Shanti Bhavan School. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Robert Barnett, Modern Classrooms Project cofounder, about his new book, Meet Every Learner's Needs: Redesigning Instruction So All Students Can Succeed. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins hosted this conversation with Paul Kirschner, Claudio Vanhees, and Daniel Muijs, three of the ten co-authors of the open-access book, Developing Curriculum for Deep Thinking: The Knowledge Revival. This was a ThoughtStretchers Community event that included registered participant questions. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with, parent, Jackie Castillo-Blaber, and parent/teacher Melinda Karshner about the challenges of teaching reading to dyslexic students. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Jack Despain Zhou about his project to establish a new think tank called Center for Educational Progress. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Jonathon Dallimore about his book, Teaching History: A Practical Guide for Secondary School Teachers. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Howard Gardner about his two new books, The Essential Howard Gardner On Education and On Mind, both reflections on his academic career and work. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins hosts this salon-style conversation with Dylan Wiliam, Oliver Caviglioli, Carl Hendrick, and Christian Bokhove about Cognitive Load Theory. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

This episode is the recording of a live discussion about school choice and vouchers, hosted by Drew Perkins, with Josh Cowen and Neal McCluskey as part of our ThoughtStretchers Community. It includes RSVP'd guests and their questions.  Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

This episode is another experimentation in AI-generated podcast 'conversations', this time about the recent open-access publication Developing Curriculum for Deep Thinking: The Knowledge Revival.   Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Katharine Birbalsingh, Headmistress of London's Michaela School about her approach to multiculturalism and the role of knowledge and inquiry in quality education. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Christian Moore-Anderson about his Knowledge Doesn't Equal Understanding blog piece. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

This episode is AI-generated and includes an AI-generated reading of a recent blog piece followed by an AI-generated conversation. It uses our published blog piece, 4 Ways School Leaders Can Navigate Polarizing Culture-War Issues, written by Drew Perkins as the source material. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Susan Kaiser Greenland about her latest book, Real-world Enlightenment: Discovering Ordinary Magic in Everyday Life. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

This episode is an AI-generated podcast conversation using NotebookLM. It uses our published blog piece written by Drew Perkins as the source material.  Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Nate Hansford about his book The Scientific Principles of Teaching. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode    

Drew Perkins talks with NASSP 2025 Principal of the Year, Tracie Swilley, about her work to turn around a struggling school.  Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Zaretta Hammond about her work and her focus on making culturally responsive teaching more cognitively responsive. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Heather Peske, President of the National Council on Teacher Quality, about their recently published executive summary, Reimagining
the Teaching Role: How Strategic Staffing Can Attract and Retain Effective Teachers. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Josh Cowen about his book, The Privateers: How Billionaires Created a Culture War and Sold School Vouchers Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Karen Foley, President of JPA Chicago, about their work to address student mental health in the Chicago area. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Oliver Cavigioli about his reframing of Cognitive Load Theory. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Neal McCluskey, Director of the Cato Institute's Center for Educational Freedom, about his school choice advocacy. Click To View Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Nayeli Vivanco, Vice President at International House at UC Berkeley, about their approach to promoting respectful discourse and unity.  Click To View Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with NASSP Board President, Raquel Martinez, about her work as a principal and newly appointed organizational role. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Cornell professor, Randy Wayne, about the Franklin Standards, an alternative meant to address shortcomings in the NGSS. Click To View Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Anna Stokke about their prickly social media exchange and their thinking on direct instruction vs. inquiry teaching and learning. Click To View Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode