Podcasts about crisis negotiation unit

What if the ability to negotiate with a hostage-taker was also a skill that could improve relationships in everyday life? Gary Noesner, who is a former FBI chief negotiator and author of 'Stalling for Time,' which deep dives into his experiences and the lessons he's learned about human nature and effective communication over his 30-year career, joins Yael for this episode. You'll hear how patience, empathy, and active listening aren't just crisis tools; they're essential for everyday connection too. Gary also reflects on the evolution of negotiation tactics, the significance of emotional control, and the value of building genuine relationships. Listen and Learn:  How active listening transformed hostage negotiation, from trading demands to truly hearing the pain beneath Why most hostage-takers aren't criminals but people in crisis, and how listening changes everything How sitting with uncertainty and leading with empathy defuses crises more than force ever could Why slowing down negotiations and investing in human understanding can save lives in high-stakes crises Understanding even the most difficult people can defuse conflict and open the door to real influence The Waco Siege and how it exposed a clash of FBI strategies and what it taught us about negotiation, power, and restraint What strategies do elite negotiators use to maintain composure in high-pressure situations and handle their emotions without assuming undue responsibility? How humility, likability, and relationship-building can defuse conflict at home, work, or in crisis Resources:  Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator https://garynoesner.com/ Yael's newsletter post about connecting like a hostage negotiator Kate Murphy's book with a profile of Gary: Why Won't You Listen to Me? Jamie Holmes' book with a profile of Gary: Nonsense Connect with Gary on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gary-noesner-1a2480b Connect with Gary on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Stalling-for-Time/148979708465038 Connect with Gary on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/garynoesner/?hl=en About Gary Noesner:  Gary Noesner retired from the FBI in 2003 following a 30-year career as an investigator, instructor, and negotiator. A significant focus of his career was directed toward investigating Middle East hijackings in which American citizens were victimized. In addition, he was an FBI hostage negotiator for 23 years of his career, retiring as the Chief of the FBI's Crisis Negotiation Unit, Critical Incident Response Group, the first person to hold that position. In that capacity, he was heavily involved in numerous crisis incidents covering prison riots, right-wing militia standoffs, religious zealot sieges, terrorist embassy takeovers, airplane hijackings, and over 120 overseas kidnapping cases involving American citizens. He has written a book about his FBI negotiation career, which was published by Penguin Random House in 2010, entitled Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator.    The book is being used in part as the basis for a six-part mini-series on Waco that will air on the Paramount Network on January 24, 2018. Related Episodes: 255. Influence is Your Superpower with Zoe Chance 276. Assertive Communication Skills with Randy Paterson 392. Outraged with Kurt Gray 403. Conflict Resilience with Bob Bordone and Joel Salinas Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In today's episode, we're diving into the fascinating world of crisis negotiation with Nicky Perfect, an international hostage and crisis negotiator turned trainer and speaker. Helen Packham and Nicky explore the profound impact of listening and validation, the ethical dilemmas faced in crisis situations, and the art of building trust through truthful and empathetic communication. This episode promises to equip you with techniques that can be applied not just in negotiations but in everyday life and leadership.Here are the highlights:00:00 Introduction03:17 Chasing a mysterious man doing handstands on a hospital rooftop on Christmas night.06:32 Heart-pounding anxiety resolved by trusting intuition..11:25 Rescue personality focuses on self-awareness and personal development, aiming to avoid solving others' problems.13:06 Transition from being a rescuer to a coach by enabling self-rescuing.18:28 Focus on logic and trust in conversations.25:28 Focus on listening and observing cues before speaking.28:14 Strength can be a disadvantage if mishandled; in crises, deception may be necessary for positive outcomes.32:16 Use empathetic language and validate feelings in negotiations and with teenagers.35:48 The coffee shop became a hub for supporting vulnerable people through conversation.36:26 Engaging in difficult conversations on the train helped Nicky step out of her comfort zone and connect with people in crisis.Connect with Nicky Perfect:Nicky spent 31 years as a Metropolitan police officer and the last 10 of those years as an international hostage and crisis negotiator. Nicky worked on the elite New Scotland Yard Hostage and Crisis Negotiation Unit. She has travelled the world teaching negotiation and working with Her Majesties Government on international operations and had the privilege of talking to hundreds of people in crisis. In the 2022 Queen's New Year's Honours List, she was awarded the British Empire Medal for “meritorious service to the community during the pandemic”, this led to an invitation to the King's Coronation in 2023. She is the author of the best selling book “Crisis – true stories from my life as a hostage negotiator” published by HQ Harper Collins. Nicky lives with her partner, step daughter, 8 goats, 4 dogs and 2 pigs. In her own words “life is never boring”. Watch Nicky's TED talkhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pqs-tFrKv_oOrder her bookhttps://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0008561168?ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_2HGT5311SGWJMYD6WKG1Connect with Nickyhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/nickyperfect-communicationcoach/Connect with Helen:Website: helenpackham.comInstagram: www.instagram.com/helenpackhamFacebook: www.facebook.com/helenpackhamcoachLinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/helenpackhamProduced by winteraudio.co.uk

Join us on the Legacy Leaders Show for an exclusive conversation with Gary Noesner, former Chief of the FBI's Crisis Negotiation Unit, who served nationally and internationally on some of the most complex crisis intervention cases of our time.In this episode, we explore "Mastering Business Communication and Negotiation" as Gary shares his extensive experience from a 30-year career in high-stakes negotiations. Discover effective communication strategies, psychological tactics, and leadership lessons that can transform your approach to resolving conflicts and navigating the complexities of the business world.Take advantage of this opportunity to learn from one of the world's top experts in crisis negotiation. In addition, his book, "Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator," available on Amazon, is a massive game-changer in enhancing your skills in today's challenging business environment with insights from Gary Noesner.

Join us on the Legacy Leaders Show for an exclusive conversation with Gary Noesner, former Chief of the FBI's Crisis Negotiation Unit, who served nationally and internationally on some of the most complex crisis intervention cases of our time.In this episode, we explore "Mastering Business Communication and Negotiation" as Gary shares his extensive experience from a 30-year career in high-stakes negotiations. Discover effective communication strategies, psychological tactics, and leadership lessons that can transform your approach to resolving conflicts and navigating the complexities of the business world.Take advantage of this opportunity to learn from one of the world's top experts in crisis negotiation. In addition, his book, "Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator," available on Amazon, is a massive game-changer in enhancing your skills in today's challenging business environment with insights from Gary Noesner.

A federal appeals court in Boston has ordered that the case of the Boston Marathon bomber Dzhokhar Tsarnaev be returned to a lower court. In a 2-1 vote, the three-judge panel concluded that claims of juror bias from Tsarnaev's legal team had not been adequately probed. Depending on the investigation of the lower court, a new penalty phase could overturn Tsarnaev's death sentence. Retired FBI Special Agent Kyle Vowinkel recounts how he was able to use his experience with the Crisis Negotiation Unit and the Hostage Rescue Team to secure Tsarnaev's peaceful surrender. Later, he reacts to the latest news surrounding Tsarnaev. Follow Emily on Instagram: @realemilycompagno If you have a story or topic we should feature on the FOX True Crime Podcast, send us an email at: truecrimepodcast@fox.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A special Woman's Hour episode all about women and negotiation. Nicky Perfect is the former Deputy Head of the elite New Scotland Yard Hostage and Crisis Negotiation Unit. She has travelled the world teaching negotiation and working with the Government on international operations. She'll be joining Hayley Hassall throughout the programme sharing her own experiences and advice, and taking us through how what she learnt can be used in our everyday lives.What has been the role of women in negotiations historically? Professor Margaret Macmillan specialises in British Imperial and International History from the 19th to the 20th Century. In those days, negotiations never involved women on paper – but that wasn't always the case in reality. She joins Hayley to tell us more. Nomi Bar-Yaacov has been all over the world mediating and negotiating international conflicts. She'll tell Hayley some of her experiences, as well as how these negotiations happen, and the different roles women play.How much of your daily life do you spend negotiating? Perhaps at work, or with your children – or even in-laws? Mum and a mic on Instagram, Jane Dowden, joins Hayley to chat through negotiations she has with her twins, and clinical psychologist Catherine Hallissey will talk about what goes on in our brains while we're negotiating, and the best way to do so with family. At the end of last year, the largest negotiations including delegates from all over the world took place – COP28, the United Nation's climate summit. Rachel Kyte was there – and at several previous COPs as well, having served as special representative of the UN secretary-general and chief executive officer of Sustainable Development for All among other roles. She'll tell Hayley all about how negotiations like COP work behind-the-scenes, including the strops and the drama that lead eventually to world-changing commitments. Presenter: Hayley Hassall Producer: Lottie Garton

The Persuasion Occasion brings together a wide range of experts to talk with David Biderman and Jasmine Wetherell, a boomer and a millennial, about how to be more persuasive. In our first episode, we welcome Gary Noesner, who shares insights from his career as the lead negotiator with the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). Gary tells us how his strategy of patience and empathy was overruled in the Waco negotiations with the Branch Davidians, leading to disastrous consequences. He also discusses the importance of self-control and emotional regulation in any negotiation and illustrates how emotions can affect rational thinking and behavior. Gary Noesner retired from the FBI in 2003, following a 30-year career as an investigator, instructor, and negotiator. He retired as the chief of the FBI's Crisis Negotiation Unit, Critical Incident Response Group, the first person to hold that position. He then served as a senior vice president with Control Risks, a global risk and strategic consulting firm, assisting clients in managing overseas kidnapping incidents. Gary has authored a book about his FBI negotiation career, Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator.

In the conclusion of a special two-part episode surrounding the events of the 2013 Boston Marathon Bombing, retired FBI Special Agent Kyle Vowinkel picks up at the point where the negotiation efforts took center stage.Vowinkel outlines how he, along with the help of two other members of the FBI's Crisis Negotiation Unit, peacefully resolved one of the nation's biggest manhunts.By using words and not weapons, Vowinkel was able to establish communication and build rapport with the bomber. Through those actions, a once non-compliant subject willingly exited the boat and surrendered to authorities.Visit www.betweenthelineswithvirtualacademy.com for more info about this episode. Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent.

In April of 2013, using his experience on both the Hostage Rescue Team and the Crisis Negotiation Unit, retired FBI Special Agent Kyle Vowinkel worked with the CNU in order to secure the peaceful surrender of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, one of the two Boston Marathon bombers.    On this bonus edition of The FOX True Crime Podcast, Emily takes a look at Kyle's illustrious career in law enforcement. Kyle Vowinkel served for 24 years as an FBI Special Agent is a former U.S. Army officer, and is a West Point graduate. Kyle served on both the FBI's elite Hostage Rescue Team (HRT) and the Crisis Negotiation Unit (CNU). After his assignments on HRT and the CNU, he used his leadership experiences as a supervisor at multiple FBI offices and retired as Assistant Special Agent in Charge (ASAC) in the Miami Division. During his Bureau career, Kyle was deployed to over twenty countries, including China, Qatar, Kenya, South Korea, and Peru, and as a tactical operator on HRT on hundreds of high-risk missions domestically as well as overseas in Iraq and Afghanistan. While a member of CNU, he negotiated with kidnappers, pirates, and more. Kyle is a keynote inspirational speaker at events around the world for companies and institutions such as West Point, Cornell University, Google, hostage negotiation seminars, and FBI National Academy events. Later, in 2023, he plans to publish a book sharing stories from his career. Learn more about Kyle: https://www.apexriskconsulting.us/ Follow Emily on Instagram: @realemilycompagno Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This morning we discuss how to diffuse a family or holiday gathering, or any other situation where someone loses their temper, and threatens to create tension and disharmony. Developed by Gary Noesner, former chief of the FBI's Crisis Negotiation Unit, these seven skills, used to train crisis negotiators dealing with hijackings, hostage standoffs, and kidnappings, can help each of us in even the mos prosaic, potentially acrimonious situations we face. Michael Whitman is the senior rabbi of ADATH Congregation in Hampstead, Quebec, and an adjunct professor at McGill University Faculty of Law. ADATH is a modern orthodox synagogue community in suburban Montreal, providing Judaism for the next generation. We take great pleasure in welcoming everyone with a warm smile, while sharing inspiration through prayer, study, and friendship. Rabbi Whitman shares his thoughts and inspirations through online lectures and shiurim, which are available on: YouTube: https://tinyurl.com/adathyoutube Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/adathmichael/ Podcast - Mining the Riches of the Parsha: Apple Podcasts - https://tinyurl.com/miningtheriches1 Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/miningtheriches3 Stitcher: https://tinyurl.com/miningtheriches4 Please contact Rabbi Whitman (rabbi@adath.ca) with any questions for feedback, or to receive a daily email, "Study with Rabbi Whitman Today," with current and past insights for that day, video, and audio, all in one short email sent directly to your inbox.

In a previous episode with Chris Voss, who worked for the FBI in the Crisis Negotiation Unit, he shares the framework for a successful negotiation that entrepreneurs like you can use.   Today, Chris shares in-depth lessons he's learned throughout his decades-long career in law enforcement and hostage negotiation, giving practical advice that both individual business owners and business organizations can implement to win almost any exchange.    As Chris demonstrates, the language you use matters — but staying quiet can be impactful, too. If his tips and tools work on cunning criminals, they're sure to be powerful in your day-to-day duties as an entrepreneur, too.   Whether you want to better understand your employees or persuade your landlord to reconsider the latest rent hike, give this episode a listen for guidance to effectively run your business and navigate the best deals with compelling confidence.

Former FBI agent and criminal profiler Candice DeLong interviews Mark Thundercloud, a retired Special Agent of the FBI's Crisis Negotiation Unit and Critical Incidence Response Group. Candice and Mark examine what pushes hostage takers over the edge.Listen to new episodes 1 week early and to all episodes ad free with Wondery+. Join Wondery+ for exclusives, binges, early access, and ad free listening. https://wondery.app.link/killerpsychePlease support us by supporting our sponsors!Ritual - Listeners get 10% OFF your first month at ritual.com/PSYCHE!Masterworks - Go to masterworks.io and use Promo Code: PSYCHE to skip Master Work's waitlist, and see important Regulation A disclosures at masterworks.io/cd!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Gary Noesner retired from the FBI in 2003 following a 30 year career as an investigator, instructor, and negotiator.   A significant focus of his career was directed toward investigating Middle East hijackings in which American citizens were victimized.   In addition, he was an FBI hostage negotiator for 23 years of his career, retiring as the Chief of the FBI's Crisis Negotiation Unit, Critical Incident Response Group, the first person to hold that position. In that capacity he was heavily involved in numerous crisis incidents covering prison riots, right-wing militia standoffs, religious zealot sieges, terrorist embassy takeovers, airplane hijackings, and over 120 overseas kidnapping cases involving American citizens. Following his retirement from the FBI he became a Senior Vice President with Control Risks, an international risk consultancy, assisting clients in managing overseas kidnap incidents.   He continues to Consult independently and speaks at law enforcement conferences and corporate gatherings around the world. He has appeared in numerous television documentaries about hostage negotiation, terrorism, and kidnapping produced by the History Channel, NBC, MSNBC, Nat Geo, WE, Discovery, TLC, A&E, CNN, CBS, BBC, American Heroes Network, and others. He has been interviewed in Time, Forbes, the New Yorker, the Washington Post, the New York Times, Newsweek, Esquire, Men's Health, Philadelphia Inquirer, LA Times, People Magazine, Roll Call, the Washingtonian Magazine, the Christian Science Monitor, and other publications. He has given speeches at major universities, done interviews on numerous radio and television programs, and was the subject of an hour long interview on NPR's Fresh Air in 2010. Gary also wrote a book about his FBI negotiation career which was published by Penguin Random House in 2010, entitled:   Stalling for Time:  My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator.    The book is being used in part as the basis for a six part mini-series on Waco that will air on the Paramount Network on January 24, 2018. https://garynoesner.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you liked this conversation please head over to https://aucoinanalytics.com You can find Aucoin Analytics across multiple social media platforms: Twitter | Facebook | Instagram Our Need-To-Know subscription based private intelligence community can be found at: https://needtoknow.aucoinanalytics.com And don't forget to support the podcast by subscribing for free, reviewing, and sharing with friends and family.

This episode is a great opportunity for listeners to learn from an expert negotiator and behavior expert, Gary Noesner. Gary is an amazing storyteller and has knowledge that transcends industries. Gary's work and book, Stalling for Time (see link below) was the inspiration for the Netflix mini-series WACO.Guest BioGary Noesner retired from the FBI in 2003 following a 30-year career as an investigator, instructor, and negotiator. A significant focus of his career was directed toward investigating Middle East hijackings in which American citizens were victimized. In addition, he was an FBI hostage negotiator for 23 years of his career, retiring as the Chief of the FBI's Crisis Negotiation Unit, Critical Incident Response Group, the first person to hold that position. In that capacity, he was heavily involved in numerous crisis incidents covering prison riots, right-wing militia standoffs, religious zealot sieges, terrorist embassy takeovers, airplane hijackings, and over 120 overseas kidnapping cases involving American citizens.Following his retirement from the FBI, he became a Senior Vice President with Control Risks, an international risk consultancy, assisting clients in managing overseas kidnap incidents. He continues to Consult independently and speaks at law enforcement conferences and corporate gatherings around the world.He has appeared in numerous television documentaries about hostage negotiation, terrorism, and kidnapping produced by the History Channel, Nat Geo, WE, Discovery, TLC, A&E, CNN, CBS, BBC, American Heroes Network, and others. He has been interviewed in Time, Forbes, the New Yorker, the Washington Post, the New York Times, Roll Call, the Washingtonian Magazine, the Christian Science Monitor, and other publications. He has given speeches at major universities, done interviews on numerous radio and television programs, and was the subject of an hour-long interview on NPR's Fresh Air in 2010.He has written a book about his FBI negotiation career which was published by Penguin Random House in 2010, entitled: Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator. The book is being used in part as the basis for a six-part mini-series on Waco that will air on the Paramount Network on January 24, 2018. Gary has three grown children and resides in Virginia with his wife, Carol.The Toxic Leadership PodcastInstagram: @ToxicLeadershipPodcastTwitter: @ToxicLeaderShow Dr. Kevin Sansberry II is a behavioral scientist and executive coach with expertise in toxic leadership, human capital strategy, and creating inclusive cultures of belonging to enhance organization performance. Over the years, Kevin has focused on providing research-informed solutions in various settings such as higher education, nonprofit, sales, and corporate environments. Follow KEVRA: The Culture Company on Linkedin to keep up with your favorite behavioral scientist, Dr. Sansberry.KEVRA: The Culture Company is specifically designed and optimized for leaders who are experiencing turnover, low employee morale, and seek to move the needle further with their initiatives. Our organizational culture and inclusion strategies are a leading consulting service that helps you gain increased retention, increased productivity, and a reputation as an inclusive organization, and unlike competitors, our services are underpinned with unique research and experience in the field of toxic organizational culture and how to create inclusive environments that stick. Have a question for Dr. Sansberry? Visit askdrkev.com to send your leadership and organizational-related questions. https://linktr.ee/ToxicLeadershipPodcast

When corporate security teams or law enforcement officers are on the front lines dealing with a crisis, they need more than a weapon on their belt to diffuse the situation. The art of negotiation and communicating to lower tension and stall for time is underrated and overlooked. Gary Noesner, former FBI hostage negotiator, knows this firsthand, which is why he authored a book on the topic — Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator. In this episode, Fred and Gary discuss what skills are needed to be an effective hostage negotiator, the curriculum he built to support the role, and changes he foresees in the space. Gary Noesner retired from the FBI in 2003 following a 30 year career as an investigator, instructor, and negotiator. He was an FBI hostage negotiator for 23 years of his career, retiring as the Chief of the FBI's Crisis Negotiation Unit, Critical Incident Response Group, the first person to hold that position. He has appeared in numerous television documentaries about hostage negotiation, terrorism, and kidnapping and has been interviewed in Time, Forbes, the New Yorker, the Washington Post, and the New York Times.

Gary Noesner retired from the FBI in 2003 following a 30 year career as an investigator, instructor, and negotiator.   A significant focus of his career was directed toward investigating Middle East hijackings in which American citizens were victimized.   In addition, he was an FBI hostage negotiator for 23 years of his career, retiring as the Chief of the FBI's Crisis Negotiation Unit, Critical Incident Response Group, the first person to hold that position. In that capacity he was heavily involved in numerous crisis incidents covering prison riots, right-wing militia standoffs, religious zealot sieges, terrorist embassy takeovers, airplane hijackings, and over 120 overseas kidnapping cases involving American citizens.Following his retirement from the FBI he became a Senior Vice President with Control Risks, an international risk consultancy, assisting clients in managing overseas kidnap incidents.   He continues to Consult independently and speaks at law enforcement conferences and corporate gatherings around the world.He has appeared in numerous television documentaries about hostage negotiation, terrorism, and kidnapping produced by the History Channel, Nat Geo, WE, Discovery, TLC, A&E, CNN, CBS, BBC, American Heroes Network, and others.  He has been interviewed in Time, Forbes, the New Yorker, the Washington Post, the New York Times, Roll Call, the Washingtonian Magazine, the Christian Science Monitor, and other publications.  He has given speeches at major universities, done interviews on numerous radio and television programs, and was the subject of an hour long interview on NPR's Fresh Air in 2010.He has written a book about his FBI negotiation career which was published by Penguin Random House in 2010, entitled:   Stalling for Time:  My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator.    The book is being used in part as the basis for a six part mini-series on Waco that will air on the Paramount Network on January 24, 2018.Gary has three grown children and resides in Virginia with his wife, Carol.

Today on the show I'm delighted to have FBI Special Agent Gary Noesner (retired) as my guest for today's show. Gary Noesner retired from the FBI in 2003 following a 30-year career as an investigator, instructor, and negotiator. A significant focus of his career was directed toward investigating Middle East hijackings in which American citizens were victimized. In addition, he was an FBI hostage negotiator for 23 years of his career, retiring as the Chief of the FBI's Crisis Negotiation Unit, Critical Incident Response Group, the first person to hold that position. In that capacity, he was heavily involved in numerous crisis incidents covering prison riots, right-wing militia standoffs, religious zealot sieges, terrorist embassy takeovers, airplane hijackings, and over 120 overseas kidnapping cases involving American citizens.Gary has appeared in numerous television documentaries about hostage negotiation, terrorism, and kidnapping produced by the History Channel, NatGeo, WE, Discovery, TLC, A&E, CNN, CBS, BBC, American Heroes Network, and others. He has been interviewed in Time, Forbes, the New Yorker, the Washington Post, the New York Times, Roll Call, the Washingtonian Magazine, the Christian Science Monitor, and other publications. He has given speeches at major universities, done interviews on numerous radio and television programs. And now he is on my podcast!He has written a book about his FBI negotiation career, entitled: Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator. The 2018 Paramount Network TV Event “Waco” is based in part on his book. This interview is over 90 minutes and well worth your time. You will probably want to take notes. Visit Gary at his website.Enjoy the Cops and Writers book series.Please visit the Cops and Writers website.If you have a question for the sarge, hit him up at his email.Come join the fun at the Cops and Writers Facebook groupSupport the show (https://patreon.com/copsandwriters)

Chris Voss began his career as a member of the New York City Joint Terrorism Task Force before spending 24 years with the FBI. Here he worked as lead negotiator in the Crisis Negotiation Unit. Chris has years of experience of high-stakes life and death negotiations, including more than 150 international hostage cases. In this episode, Chris shares his journey as a negotiator and practical tips to apply those negotiation practices in your life. Check out Chris's book: Never Split The Difference Become a subscriber: Get access to subscriber-only episodes, Q&A, and ad-free listening Follow me on social for more inspiration: Instagram Facebook Join the Facebook Group: Motivated Minds Start setting goals and achieving them: Schedule a one-on-one session Like this show? Please leave a review! Music by: Blaize Trulson

Richard Mullender was at the center of some very famous hostage negotiations, and he has a thing or two to teach us about the art of listening. As the lead trainer for Scotland Yard's Hostage and Crisis Negotiation Unit, he helped negotiate the release of three UN workers held hostage by the Taliban, among many other high profile cases. As demand for his listening skills grew, he established The Listening Institute to teach the business world how to avoid common communication pitfalls and why listening is the key to building meaningful and authentic connections. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Gary Noesner retired from the FBI in 2003 following a 30 year career as an investigator, instructor, and negotiator.   A significant focus of his career was directed toward investigating Middle East hijackings in which American citizens were victimized.   In addition, he was an FBI hostage negotiator for 23 years of his career, retiring as the Chief of the FBI’s Crisis Negotiation Unit, Critical Incident Response Group, the first person to hold that position. In that capacity he was heavily involved in numerous crisis incidents covering prison riots, right-wing militia standoffs, religious zealot sieges, terrorist embassy takeovers, airplane hijackings, and over 120 overseas kidnapping cases involving American citizens. Following his retirement from the FBI he became a Senior Vice President with Control Risks, an international risk consultancy, assisting clients in managing overseas kidnap incidents.   He continues to Consult independently and speaks at law enforcement conferences and corporate gatherings around the world. He has appeared in numerous television documentaries about hostage negotiation, terrorism, and kidnapping produced by the History Channel, Nat Geo, WE, Discovery, TLC, A&E, CNN, CBS, BBC, American Heroes Network, and others.  He has been interviewed in Time, Forbes, the New Yorker, the Washington Post, the New York Times, Roll Call, the Washingtonian Magazine, the Christian Science Monitor, and other publications.  He has given speeches at major universities, done interviews on numerous radio and television programs, and was the subject of an hour long interview on NPR’s Fresh Air in 2010. He has written a book about his FBI negotiation career which was published by Penguin Random House in 2010, entitled:   Stalling for Time:  My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator.    The book is being used in part as the basis for a six part mini-series on Waco that will air on the Paramount Network on January 24, 2018. http://www.garynoesner.com   And don’t forget to support the podcast by subscribing for free, reviewing, and sharing.   Check me out on YouTube with a livestream!  https://youtube.com/erichunley    Web: https://unstructuredpod.com/  Twitter: https://twitter.com/hunleyeric Facebook: https://facebook.com/hunleyeric Instagram: https://instagram.com/hunleyeric   Find me on Locals https://unstructured.locals.com/    ***************************************************************

Fear is one of those visceral emotions that makes us do all sorts of strange things. Wars, crimes, and catastrophes have all been the result of someone's fear.  Join Randy and Jim, as well as our special guest Gary Noesner, as we discuss the impact of fear in leadership  Gary Noesner retired from the FBI in 2003 following a 30 year career as an investigator, instructor, and negotiator.   A significant focus of his career was directed toward investigating Middle East hijackings in which American citizens were victimized.   In addition, he was an FBI hostage negotiator for 23 years of his career, retiring as the Chief of the FBI's Crisis Negotiation Unit, Critical Incident Response Group, the first person to hold that position. In that capacity he was heavily involved in numerous crisis incidents covering prison riots, right-wing militia standoffs, religious zealot sieges, terrorist embassy takeovers, airplane hijackings, and over 120 overseas kidnapping cases involving American citizens. www.garynoesner.com https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003EY7JE4/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i0 Don't be afraid!  Listen to the podcast! 

“Life is gray. It's not black and white. It's possible to admit that the FBI made mistakes and at the same time recognize the ultimate responsibility of Koresh to have led his people out peacefully, as we encouraged him to do every single day.” Gary Noesner Gary Noesner, author of the book Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator, retired from the FBI in 2003 following a 30-year career. During this career, Gary was named the first chief of the FBI Crisis Negotiation Unit. As a negotiator, he was personally involved in numerous high-profile crises, cases, and seizures, including the Branch Davidians in Waco, recently dramatized by the Netflix series. I had the pleasure of speaking with Gary about the gray nature of life, what distinguishes wants vs needs, and the game-changing power of making adjustments at half-time. Listen in to find out how Gary’s discomfort with conflict in his youth led to his career as a hostage negotiator for the FBI.   Show Highlights [7:29] The fatal mistake of assuming that high rank equals expertise [14:07] The realization that life is gray [19:00] Saving the most lives possible [22:29] Making adjustments at half-time [26:40] Distinguishing between wants and needs   Links | Resources Gary on LinkedIn Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator   About the Guest Gary Noesner, author of the book Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator, retired from the FBI in 2003 following a 30-year career. During this career, Gary was named the first chief of the FBI Crisis Negotiation Unit. As a negotiator, he was personally involved in numerous high-profile crises, cases, and seizures, including the Branch Davidians in Waco, recently dramatized by the Netflix series.   About Voltage Control Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings.  Share An Episode of Control The Room Apple Podcasts Spotify Android Stitcher Engage Control The Room Voltage Control on the Web Contact Voltage Control   Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting. Douglas: Today I’m with Gary Noesner. Gary retired from the FBI in 2003 following a 30-year career, during which he was named the first chief of the FBI Crisis Negotiation Unit. As a negotiator, he was personally involved in numerous high-profile crises, cases, and seizures, including the Branch Davidians in Waco, recently dramatized by the Netflix series. He's also author of the book Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator.  Welcome to the show, Gary. Gary: Thanks. It's a pleasure to be with you. Douglas: So, Gary, I'm always fascinated to hear how people got their start, especially in the world of facilitation. And I’m sure negotiators are no different. While there’s certainly a course at Quantico, there’s not readily degree programs, like, “Oh, I’m going to go become a negotiator or become a facilitator.” It's a quite circuitous path a lot of people take. And I'm curious. All the way back to the Lakeland High School, you know, talking about some of those early situations you found yourself in, at what point did you really start to realize that you had this gift of kind of working with people? Gary: Well, I think as an early age, I was always uncomfortable around conflict and always sort of stepped up to the plate to de-escalate confrontations and arguments, whether it's between friends or others. It just seemed like a natural and appropriate thing to do for me. So when I got into the FBI, after wanting to do that since I was young, I had no sense that anything about negotiation existed because it didn't when I joined. But when I first got in the early part of my career, the FBI had sort of taken on this hostage-negotiation concept that had been started by NYPD. And there's something about it that really attracted me, and I thought it fit my personality and skill set. So I got the early training, and it was an auxiliary function for me for many, many years. And eventually I became a full-time negotiator and chief of the Crisis Negotiation Unit for the last 10 years of my career. But it was very challenging, and, yeah, there's a lot of similarities with mediation, facilitation. It's all about building relationships and influencing people in a positive way.  Douglas: And it must have been kind of—it's like coming full circle as you were one of the first to take the course, and then you ended up taking the program over. What did that feel like when you remember it? Like, what was that like? Gary: Well, in those days, when I first got involved, the FBI, perhaps more so than today, played a pretty significant role in training police departments. Police departments didn't have a lot of money for training back then, so part of the FBI's mission was to provide it at no charge. And one of the areas, of course, was negotiation. It eventually became the thing we taught more than anything else, except for maybe firearms. And it gave me an opportunity to really interface with a lot of police officers in ways that I might not have had a chance otherwise. And that was a really valuable piece of my learning as an agent, as a human being. And, you know, I certainly got as much from those officers as I gave. It became apparent to me very quickly that the skills and the approaches we were teaching had a real impact. It wasn't theoretical. It allowed officers to exercise some specific skills to prevent violence and come home alive to their families. So immediately I recognized it as rewarding and meaningful and certainly something I always enjoyed. Douglas: Something that really caught my eye—and I kind of can parallel it back to even the theme of the show, which is control, and how much control do we lean into, and how much do we back away from? And I really struck a chord with this notion of maintaining balance. And you were talking about managing yourself and the people around you. And in fact, I think there is a quote that really caught my eye, which was, if you cannot control your own emotions, how can you expect to influence those of others? Gary: That's literally the first line that comes out of my mouth when I teach negotiations, because it's so true. I mean, if you want to influence others and yet you yourself are emotionally charged or dealing not in a logical, thoughtful, empathic way, then you're probably not going to be as successful as you would otherwise. So self-control is terribly important. And you tend to see people that perform at the highest levels in certainly law-enforcement negotiations are typically people who have a lot of self-control.  And one of the chapters in my book, Stalling for Time, I start each chapter with a quote. And a quote I always like, it's a partial quote from Rudyard Kipling about if you can keep your head about you when all else are losing theirs.  And I think that says a lot to me about the kind of person that makes a good negotiator and what is required. It's somebody that can think clearly in the midst of a situation where others might be so overcome with various forms of reaction that they're not optimally performing. You know, it's kind of like—I always do the comparison of a trauma surgeon. You know, when mass casualties are brought into an emergency room, the trauma surgeon, it's not that they're not human and don't see the damage that some people have suffered or perhaps been deceased, but they focus immediately on what has to be done, which is to save as many lives and determine which ones need their most immediate care. So they put those emotions aside so that they can function at an optimal level or highest level they can. And I think negotiations is very akin to that. Douglas: Yeah. It reminds me of the, never confusing getting even with what you want. Gary: Yeah. And it's a good phrase we used to use for our commanders because even law enforcement, somebody can be a fairly high rank and have a lot of different experiences in an agency. It doesn't mean that they've had a lot of experience managing with these kinds of crises.  And law-enforcement officers are human beings, and when a perpetrator, particularly one that is maybe not a model citizen or somebody that may not have any attributes that we would find commendable, when they refuse to do what we want and they don't cooperate and they back out of promises, they engage in any number of problematic behaviors, you really got to maintain your self-control because if you respond and react to that, you may get even with them, but are you really accomplishing what your goal is, which is to get your way? And “to get our way” in the context of negotiation means we get people to peacefully surrender, to comply, to do what we think is not only in our best interest, but in their best interest. We don't want anybody to get hurt. So I found a lot of my career time was helping on-scene commanders and decision makers, chiefs of police, sheriffs, understand that concept.  There's always an assumption that people of a high rank know how to do everything. And of course, that's a fatal mistake you can make, because they don't necessarily understand, especially—someone might be a great internist as a doctor, but can they perform brain surgery? Probably not. So, you know, just because you have the MD in front of your name doesn’t mean you can do everything there is that could possibly come before you. So we have to know our limitations, and we have to understand that there are people who have more expertise that we probably would be wise to listen to. Douglas: Yeah. It reminds me of your points in the book around just the crises within the crises and these other negotiations that have to happen. So you're managing quite a lot at the same time. Gary: Yeah. I mean, and of course, I know we'll be talking about Waco shortly, but I got asked this on a recent interview, and I never really thought about it from that complexity point of view that while out there, I had three very distinct roles. I had to manage the negotiation team, maybe 15 or 20 people, and ensure that it was functioning properly and proceeding in a strategic way, the way I wanted it to. And at the same time, I had to convey what we wanted to the bosses and convince them to support the strategic approach we were taking, and that could often be a challenge. And then, last but not least, is dealing with David Koresh and all the unique issues and problems that he brought to the table. So, you know, you find yourself sometimes being the ringleader in a three-ring circus, you know, and trying to keep everybody functioning in the right way so we can achieve the outcome we want. Douglas: Yeah. And speaking of Waco, let's talk about that for a moment. I was really curious to hear your thoughts on how well it portrayed the negotiation process, because from a storyline perspective, when I compare your book to the show, there's definitely some sensationalism on the Branch Davidian side. My depiction was that it demonstrated the conflict with the kind of more forceful approach and also just the kind of slow, intentional approach ya’ll were taking. But I’m just kind of curious as far as, like, anything about the negotiation process that you felt was maybe skewed in the presentation. Gary: It's a big question, and there's a lot of variables. Obviously, they bought my book to show the FBI side of the story and what perspective we had from outside looking in. And then they bought David Thibodeau’s book—he was a surviving Branch Davidian—to get the perspective of someone inside looking out. And I liked that approach, to look at it from both angles. But specifically addressing the negotiation part, they got a lot of parts of the negotiation very right. What was the Hollywood dramatization part is they had my character doing all these things on his own, when in reality I'm leading the team, and there's eight, nine negotiators per shift. It's quite a complex and many-moving-part operation. So obviously, Hollywood doesn't want to pay those additional actors and introduce their characters and get the audience to know them. It's a whole different level of challenge, that they wanted to showcase Michael Shannon, who was one of the two main stars of the TV show who played me.  Douglas: I got to say, if I'm ever played by anyone, I would say Michael Shannon wouldn't be a bad—that’s not a bad deal to get. Gary: I had seen Michael Shannon in Boardwalk Empire, that TV show.  Douglas: Mm-hmm. Gary: I was very impressed with him in that show, and I didn't even know his name, to be honest with you. And they came out and said, “This Michael Shannon's been hired to play you.” And I looked him up right away. I said, “Oh, it’s that guy.” Well, he is just an incredible actor and human being. And, you know, during my time on the set, we had an opportunity to become quite friendly and had basically drinks and dinner every night while I was out there. And what an incredible actor. And he certainly was not trying to imitate me, but he captured the tenor of my philosophy, which goes back to your earlier question. I think those issues that came up, including the conflict between the tactical side of the FBI that wanted to take a different approach, I think that's very accurately reflected. Again, not so much in the exact form, but certainly in terms of substance. And he had it down very, very well and, I think, did an incredible job. And let me add another thing, Douglas. You know, what I found is I felt that part of the reason I wrote my book was to educate current and future FBI leaders. And one of the things they need to be educated on is to understand not only the mistakes that the FBI made there, but the good things we did. And there were far more of those than not. But if someone doesn't write that down and record it, those things fall through the cracks and they're forgotten, and sometimes mistakes are repeated, and good behaviors are not appreciated or replicated. So I wanted to write it for that reason. And I also feel that in the FBI, we serve the American people. If we do something wrong, we should step up to the plate, admit what we did, demonstrate that we are making changes and corrections, and I think we owe it to the American people that we serve to do those things. So for all those reasons, I wrote that book and stand by the portrayal of the FBI overall.  What I'm not quite as happy about is I think the portrayal on the other side of David Koresh came up a bit short for me because in reality, David Koresh was a far more dark and sinister, manipulative guy than was portrayed. The other great actor there—there were several of them—but Taylor Kitsch, who played Koresh, was just phenomenal. And he's such a nice guy in real life that I think that came through. And the producer, directors wanted to show the charismatic side of Koresh, what allowed him to attract followers and gain their total allegiance. And they did that, but I just don't think they showed sufficiently. They showed some dark things from him but not enough to my satisfaction. And I talked to them about that and tried to change that. But what you find out is when you sell your book to Hollywood or somebody else, you have some influence, but you don't have control. Douglas: Yep. I think that echoes my read on it as well. It’s a little sensationalized on the, like, kind of making people want to have a little more sympathy than maybe you would have if you were watching it go down from the sidelines. Gary: You know, you’re into facilitation, and I think the biggest takeaway for facilitators, if you want to use Waco as sort of an example, is the realization that life is gray. It's not black and white. It's possible to admit that the FBI made mistakes and at the same time recognize the ultimate responsibility of Koresh to have led his people out peacefully, as we encouraged him to do every single day. So you don't have to say, “Oh, these guys were all good, and these guys were all bad. The big old bad government came in and just wanted to kill people.” I mean, it's actually intellectually lazy to take on those extreme views and not very realistic. There were good people in there who were practicing their faith, and there were highly dedicated FBI agents who wanted nothing but everybody to come out alive. So to make those general derogatory statements, I think, is just showing you haven't done your research, and you haven't read about what really happened, and you don’t understand. Douglas: Coming back to your goals for the book around really cementing the positive impact so they're not lost, it also jumped out to me when you were talking about these post-incident reviews and applying these lessons learned, it was interesting because it seemed like the popularity of the techniques within the FBI began to grow as you started to celebrate some of these wins. But the irony of it all was, maybe one of the ones that I was the most tickled by and I thought that you guys did such an amazing move was the steaks and gravy and cakes for the prisoners. So they're all having a Thanksgiving coma while the tactical thing went in, and clearly, not much credit was given after the fact for that. Gary: Yeah. You know, it's funny. A lot of people in law enforcement are really not well versed on what negotiators do and why we do it. It's sort of a soft science, and you know there’s more to taking action than here's a bad guy. We're going to do this to suppress them, arrest them, whatever we have to do. And, you know, when you do negotiate people out, which we do, in the 90 percentile, people say, “Well, it must not have been so hard. That guy must not have been that dangerous anyway.” And they sort of make some excuses for it. Of course, I always want to say, “Well, you try doing it when somebody's life is on the line.” But it's a hard thing to define.  But just as in facilitation, we're building relationships, and people expect in these situations law enforcement to show up and be very confrontational, very demanding, very dictatorial. You will do this and you better do that, or we're going to do x, y, z. And instead they get somebody like me show up and say, “Hey, David. This is Gary. What's going on in there? I'm here to help. I don't want to see anybody get hurt.” It's something they don't expect, and it gives us an opportunity to listen to them and to better understand what their motivation is, what their feelings are, how they interpret what has happened. It allows us slowly and steadily to lower the tension, to de-conflict and de-confrontate. And it allows us to begin eventually to have some influence over their behavior. And, you know, you typically will get to a point where a guy like David Koresh, which you didn't hear, he said, “You know, I just don't know what I can do. I don't know what to get out of, how to get out of what I got into.” And you say, “Well, you know, here's some ideas for you, and here's something you might want to think about. And come out to jail and tell the world your side of the story. It needs to be heard.” You know, those are things we did, and with some effect, we got 35 people out during the first half when I was there, including 21 children. That’s a fact that many people forget. And it was not an easy task, and I'm very proud of it. I’m no less disappointed that we didn't get more out or everybody out. But you got to recognize that human emotion is a really challenging thing. And when there's been loss of life, like it was at Waco before we even arrived as the FBI, I mean, we were already in a deep ditch, and we got to dig out of that. It's pretty tough. Douglas: You know, as you were speaking, it reminded me of some notes I wrote down around there's a lot of similarities between facilitation and negotiation, but there's some clear differences as well. We’re not dealing with—life and death is usually not at stake. And the fundamental contradiction that you mentioned, which I thought was really fascinating, we don't really struggle with that so much, right? Like, we're all about building trust, but we never, ever have to bend the truth, or we never have to potentially send them into harm's way. And when I think about that story, was it in West Virginia, where Cheryl's husband, her and her child. And there was a lot of interesting dynamics there from the perspective of opening up options and demonstrating a future when you know that that future may not exist. So I’m kind of curious how that unfolds, just as you're kind of regulating your emotions. Gary: Well, it's a tough case. And, you know, my book is about the importance of negotiation and how it is a tool that law enforcement should even use more, and then I start off the first chapter of my book with a situation where we have to use deadly force to resolve it. But it was a very dramatic case. It showed how even in those cases where the behaviors, the actions of the perpetrator are so extreme that our chance of getting them to comply and resolve it peacefully are pretty slim and, thereby, someone else is going to die. So then the negotiator has to segue into a role that allows you to become more supportive of the only option we have left, and that's using force.  In Sperryville, I talked him into coming out to a helicopter, where a marksman ended his life. In the Talladega prison, that you alluded to earlier, we knew hostages were going to die, so we gave in and gave them a very sumptuous meal for the first time in eight days to sort of, excuse the expression, fatten them up and to lure them into a sense of victory and empowerment. And they took the bait and gorged on the food and basically went into sweet slumber that allowed the Hostage Rescue team to make a really terrific, well-executed entry and save everybody's lives.  So there are times where negotiators have to recognize reality, that while we will be successful most of the time, there's nothing in what we do that guarantees success and certainly not 100 percent of the time. So we have to be adaptable and flexible. And the bottom line is, how do we save the most lives possible? Douglas: Yes. That was the thing that was going through my mind in both of those scenarios because Sperryville, you saved a woman and her child; and then the prison example, I mean, how much more carnage would have happened if they would have been bracing for it? Gary: That’s right. I mean, if we had continued to deny them food until they released the hostages, I mean, I think we stood a good chance of having them kill one of the hostages to try to force us to do what they wanted, and that's one less human being alive today to survive that. So we have to take all that into consideration. And you make the best decisions you can, and you have to weigh all the facts. That's why we function—in Waco, I get a lot of credit operating by myself, but in reality, we're leveraging a team of very skilled and talented negotiators that bring a lot to the table from their training and their personal experience. We said, “What do you think? What are your ideas? Did you hear something I didn't hear?” And we really use that to full advantage to try to come up with the best approach that we think will achieve what we want in this particular incident. Douglas: That brings to mind something else I wanted to bring up, which was the comment of you write good notes. And it really resonated with me because I often love to facilitate with a co-facilitator, and I find that when, especially when we're exploring really tough issues that, like, a team is really struggling, like, they can't seem to get past some personal issues, or they're just stuck on some things, when you’re there working directly, it’s sometimes hard to see the big picture because you’re in the content, you're in the moment. But if you're on the sideline kind of just observing, you can see interesting things. So I was just wondering, is that similar in the negotiation world? When you're observing and writing these notes, do you find that you see things you wouldn't have seen if you were just on the phone, in the moment with them, like, watching every word, that kind of thing? Gary: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's akin, Douglas, if you want to do a comparison, you think of a college or a professional football game. You ever notice how sometimes—not all the time—the second half is dramatically different from the first half? I mean, dramatically different? And you say, “Boy, what happened? That must've been a hell of a speech that the coach gave.” Well, what it really was is the coaches up in the booth, they’re studying what happened. They're making adjustments at halftime. It's coaching. It's not being personally involved in playing that position out on the field, but watching it and seeing where changes or improvements can be made to get the outcome we wanted.  So negotiations is no different. If I’m the negotiation coordinator, or the coach, it allows me to listen to the interplay between the primary negotiator on the phone and the perpetrator, and then either in between calls or through passing a short, cryptic note, help nudge them to something I've seen that I think they may not have fully appreciated.  The quote you're talking about is in Waco. This mother was very angry that her son was by himself. He had been released in the Child Protective Services, and we sent a video in of all the children. And she was very angry at us for his forlorn status. And, you know, rather than just trying to defend ourselves, I passed a note to John Dolan, our primary negotiator at the time, and he read it, and he smiled. And it just said, “You know, Kathy, what little Brian needs now is a hug from his mommy.” And you could almost hear the arrow strike her heart. And, I mean, it was the one phrase that kind of brought it home to her that she was the missing piece. It wasn't us that was causing trauma to her child. It was the fact that she sent him out, and she stayed in to fight for Koresh, that it was her maternal responsibility to do this. And I think that shot hit home, and she came out the next day, and she was the first, essentially the first, adult that came out. And that was a very meaningful goal that we’d achieved. Douglas: It really struck home for me when I read that because sometimes people aren't even necessarily self-aware or why they're upset. And if they're lashing out to you, and you can—it's almost like judo, which is redirect their energy, kind of become more aware of where the center is. Gary: Yeah. You know, when you look at negotiations broadly—I'm not talking specifically Waco here—really, very few of them are actually hostage-taking events, where someone's being held to force somebody else to do something. Probably 90 percent of what police do around the country are dealing with highly emotionally charged situations. Often the jilted lovers, romantic situation gone bad; somebody holding an employer who fired them; an argument with a neighbor. There are people who are expressing anger, rage, and frustration who don't even have a clear goal of what they're trying to achieve. In other words, they've gotten themselves into something they have no idea how to get out of. And that's the role that the negotiator could play to try to understand those emotions and those drivers of their behavior, and to try to deal with those and diffuse those. That's what makes us successful. It's an approach that people don't expect from law enforcement. We certainly got that from the mental-health counseling community. And it's very effective in getting people to, for the first time, hear themselves what is driving them, and they may not appreciate, you know? Douglas: Yeah. It reminds me of another note that I had taken around you had talked about the role of the negotiator was to help people express their fears, so allowing them to open up. And it was interesting because as I read it, it was definitely similar to things that we're trying to do in the workplace, because often people have these unstated fears. It's just they're not vulnerable enough to say it out loud because they're worried someone's going to judge them or maybe they haven't even figured it out yet. And so simply stating what might be clear to you but not to them and allowing them to acknowledge it or even just to say yes, I thought that was pretty interesting.  Gary: You know, we used to talk about helping people understand the difference between wants and needs. So somebody involved in one of these situations may say, I want this and I want that, but it's our job to find out what they really need. Do they really need their job back? Or is it the loss of respect and the embarrassment of having to go home and tell your wife you haven't got a job anymore? I mean, you know, we don't always get that right. But that's kind of our goal, you know? And when we're communicating with them, and we say, “It sounds like you're really embarrassed by what happened,” and if he hasn't articulated that and that, in fact, is what he feels, then we've just really scored some big points because he said, “Yes, that's exactly right. I’m embarrassed by having been fired.” Well, that’s important for us to know if we're going to deal with how he's viewing what happened to him. Douglas: So, I had this—it was one of the last kind of sentences in your book. And I wrote it down because I thought it was pretty spot on. So I'm just going to read it, and then I'd love to just hear your thoughts today on this. But, “The happiest and most successful people are the ones that can remain calm in difficult times and put aside emotions like pride and anger that stop them from finding common ground. We need to be good listeners and understand the problems and needs of the other side.” Gary: Yeah. I guess it's never been more true than it is today in our very acrimonious political climate. And I'll bring up some recent events: the protests around the country. When people go out on the street and they carry signs and they're yelling and singing songs, whatever they're doing, what they're basically saying is, “We want somebody to hear us.” Douglas: Mm-hmm. Gary: And if instead of finding ways to creatively listen to them, we simply attack them, we're probably not going to be successful. I suspect if you had 100 people in a room and 50 were pro-life and 50 were pro-choice, you could even have great meaningful discussion all night long, and at the end of the evening, you'd probably still have 50-50. But that's okay as long as we've avoided name calling and shouts and threats and violence and so forth. That's the major goal. It's a slow, steady process to try to create an atmosphere where we can listen to others and appreciate their point of view, even if it's different. And I just hate to see that today, particularly in our political environment, we seem to be going in the wrong direction. Douglas: Yeah. I think that there's a real beauty—I had underscored the statement you made at the end of one of the early chapters, which was, “Listening is the cheapest concession we can make.” Gary: Yeah. It is. It costs you nothing. And, you know, you can acknowledge someone's point of view, “Let me make sure I understand. You're angry at your boss because he fired you. You don't think he appreciated your work, and you felt as though he mistreated you,” and so forth and so on. I'm not saying to him, “Yes, I think you should kill your boss.” I'm saying to him, “I understand how you feel about what happened.” I mean, that's a powerful thing. If you think about it, the whole evolution of communication between human beings, and we're social animals, we want other people to understand what we're saying and how we feel about it. And if you do that as a facilitator, as a negotiator, you're going to be successful. Douglas: Gary, it's been so great having you on the show today, and fun chatting and hearing about just the riveting life and career you’ve had in negotiation. Would you like to leave the listeners with any final words? Gary: Well, I would suggest that people really work on listening. Listening is such an important tool. So when you go out, not so much these days with COVID, but when you have an opportunity to have a social interaction, pick out somebody you don’t know very well or somebody that's a little quiet over in the corner or whatever, and go and talk to them and find out about their life and ask good questions. “Can you tell me more about that? That sounds very interesting. I'd like to hear about that hobby that you have or that trip that you took.” And you'll find that people are far more interesting than you might have realized, that people have done and seen things that you had no idea, and you will learn a lot. And they, in turn, will appreciate the fact that you have taken the time and demonstrated the interest in learning more about them. It is a very, very powerful tool.  And you know, what we all want to achieve is cooperation with other human beings, and we get that through being likable, plain old likable. Just be a person that strives to be likable and to automatically not think the worst of others and blame others, but seek to understand. Even the business guru Stephen Covey says, first seek to understand, then to be understood. So I’m not sure if that helps, but I would urge people to really make an effort at that.  Douglas: Well, thanks again for being on the show. It's been great.  Gary: My pleasure. Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together, voltagecontrol.com.

Gary Noesner (pronounced "ness-ner") retired from the FBI in 2003 following a thirty-year career.  Twenty-three of those years were spent as an FBI hostage negotiator, where he retired as Chief of the FBI's Crisis Negotiation Unit, Critical Incident Response Group, the first person to hold that position. In that capacity, Gary was heavily involved in numerous hostage, barricade, and suicide incidents; covering prison riots, right-wing militia standoffs, religious zealot sieges, terrorist embassy takeovers, airplane hijackings, and over 120 overseas kidnapping cases involving American citizens.Following his career with the FBI, Gary joined Control Risks, an international risk consultancy, assisting clients in managing overseas kidnap incidents. Gary is the author of Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator, one of two books used as the basis for the television mini-series, Waco.

Sarah Van Voorst has been an officer with the Sioux Falls Police Department since 2015. During this time she has been an active member of the Recruiting Team, the Well-Being Team, Coffee with a Cop, and the Crisis Negotiation Unit. Prior to starting with the SFPD, Sarah worked at LifeScape for 9 years as a case manager working with adults with disabilities.

We’ve all negotiated in situations that seemed like high stakes – asking for a job raise or bargaining with a rebellious teenager. But few of us have ever been thrown into a situation where our words could literally save or cost someone’s life. On today’s show, we’ll take a look at some of the most famous hostage crises in recent times and explore how negotiators get peaceful outcomes in tense situations and why sometimes things don’t go as planned. Gary Noesner retired from the FBI in 2003 following a 30 year career as an investigator, instructor, and negotiator. A significant focus of his career was directed toward investigating Middle East hijackings in which American citizens were victimized. In addition, he was an FBI hostage negotiator for 23 years of his career, retiring as the Chief of the FBI's Crisis Negotiation Unit, Critical Incident Response Group, the first person to hold that position. In that capacity he was heavily involved in numerous crisis incidents covering prison riots, right- wing militia standoffs, religious zealot sieges, terrorist embassy takeovers, airplane hijackings, and over 120 overseas kidnapping cases involving American citizens. Image: KPTV

In this two-part series, I interview Gary Noesner. Gary Noesner retired from the FBI in 2003 following a 30-year career as an investigator, instructor, and negotiator. A significant focus of his career was directed toward investigating Middle East hijackings in which American citizens were victimized. In addition, he was an FBI hostage negotiator for 23 years of his career, retiring as the Chief of the FBI's Crisis Negotiation Unit, Critical Incident Response Group, the first person to hold that position. In that capacity, he was heavily involved in numerous crisis incidents covering prison riots, rightwing militia standoffs, religious zealot sieges, terrorist embassy takeovers, airplane hijackings, and over 120 overseas kidnapping cases involving American citizens. He has appeared in numerous television documentaries about hostage negotiation, terrorism, and kidnapping produced by the History Channel, Nat Geo, WE, Discovery, TLC, A&E, CNN, CBS, BBC, American Heroes Network, and others. He has been interviewed in Time, Forbes, the New Yorker, the Washington Post, the New York Times, Roll Call, the Washingtonian Magazine, the Christian Science Monitor, and other publications. He has given speeches at major universities, done interviews on numerous radio and television programs, and was the subject of an hour-long interview on NPR's Fresh Air in 2010. He has written a book about his FBI negotiation career, which was published by Penguin Random House in 2010, entitled: Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator. The 2018 Paramount Network TV Event "Waco" is based in part on his book. He was portrayed in the six-part TV series by two time Academy Award-nominated actor Michael Shannon. For additional information on booking Gary to speak, go to garynoesner.com

Gary shares with us the power of words, active listening, and finding the good in people. Gary spent over 30 years with the FBI and retired as the Chief of the Crisis Negotiation Unit. Join Gary and I as we discuss the differences from real life and the Netflix/Paramount mini series recently released called, Waco. We also discuss his personal experiences as a hostage negotiator and what business leaders can learn to help them lead more successfully in their everyday lives. "There is good in every body...you just need to find it"

-Former chief of FBI's Hostage/Negotiation Crisis unit Gary Noesner joins the Powerline to discuss the important traits of being a great negotiator, the success of negotiating in the FBI, his storied sieges of Sperryville, Ruby Ridge, Waco, DC snipers, and overall a well and respectable discussion about his life. -Disclaimer: This was not and is not a place for political preferences, discussing our feelings about the government, FBI, etc.. this was a well informed educated discussion with a man who we have nothing but the upmost respect for. -Check out his book Stalling for Time: My life as an FBI hostage negotiator. Available on garynoesner.com -Check out the show on all podcast platforms!! Please rate, vote, like, comment, your feedback is important! @djpowerhour on all social media platforms, and www.djpowerhour.com Email us @dandjpowerhour@gmail.com

Negotiation Lessons From The Field, with Gary Noesner, Ep #119 Many times the hardest negotiation lessons to learn are hard because they are painful. Those learned in real-life failed negotiations can be among the most valuable. The Waco Siege of 1993 stands out as one of the most tragic and mishandled negotiations in American history. Many observations have been made about what happened there, but the FBI hostage negotiators who were on the scene are the ones who know best what went wrong—and why.. Gary Noesner was the lead negotiator at that event He retired from the FBI after 30 years as an investigator, with 23 of those years being in the role of a negotiator. He retired as the Chief of the FBI’s Crisis Negotiation Unit, Critical Incident Response Group and was the first person to hold that position. As the lead negotiator at the Waco Siege, Gary shares openly about what contributed to the regrettable and terrible outcome experienced there. The negotiation lessons you’ll receive from this conversation are priceless. Outline of This Episode [2:42] Gary’s background: A 30-year career with the FBI, negotiating for 23 years [5:42] The primary reasons the 1993 Waco situation didn’t work out as desired [14:50] The 85-day siege against the Freeman in Montana - a great success [17:36] Why mixed messages occurred in Waco [24:07] Similarities between these hostage negotiations and business negotiations [27:43] Tactics for dealing with frustration in negotiation standoffs [38:17] A tip from Gary: Periodically demonstrate that you understand what they said, including how they feel about it. Resources & People Mentioned Details of the Waco Siege David Koresh and The Branch Davidian Group BOOK: The Like Switch Gary Noesner’s Behavioral Stairway MOVIE: A Beautiful Day In The Neighborhood Connect with Gary Roesner www.GaryNoesner.com Gary’s book: Stalling for Time Connect With Mark Follow Negotiations Ninja on Twitter: @NegotiationPod Connect with Mark on LinkedIn Follow Negotiations Ninja on LinkedIn Connect on Instagram: @NegotiationPod Subscribe to Negotiations Ninja

January 23, 2019 - Expert negotiator, Gary Noesner, discussed with the CoreNet Young Leaders some of his many tactics and strategies that are applicable to industry related scenarios. Gary was an FBI hostage negotiator for 23 years and was the first person to hold the position of Chief of the FBI’s Crisis Negotiation Unit, Critical Incident Response Group. In that capacity he was heavily involved in numerous crisis incidents covering prison riots, right-wing militia standoffs, religious zealot sieges, terrorist embassy takeovers, airplane hijackings and more than 120 overseas kidnapping cases involving American citizens.

Retired agent Mark Thundercloud served in the FBI for nearly 28 years. Early in his career, he was trained as a crisis negotiator and was eventually promoted to the FBI Critical Incident Response Group (CIRG), in the Crisis Negotiation Unit. In this episode of FBI Retired Case File Review, Mark Thundercloud reviews  the case of an American mother and son, Gerfa and Kevin Lunsmann, kidnapped by terrorist organization Abu Sayyaf while visiting relatives in the Philippines. Thundercloud also talks about his role in the rescue from Somali pirates of Richard Phillips, the captain of the Maersk Alabama, a commercial vessel. During his career, Mark Thundercloud responded to major crisis incidents around the world and managed the FBI Crisis Negotiator Program and the approximately 375 Special Agent negotiators throughout the U.S. He also organized many instructional courses and trained hostage/crisis negotiation and suicide intervention to thousands of FBI Agents, domestic and foreign police officers, military, and other personnel throughout the U.S. and the world. Mark Thundercloud personally responded to major incidents in the United States such as the Ruby Ridge standoff in Idaho, the Freemen incident in Montana, the Boston Marathon Bombings, and to the Standing Rock, North Dakota oil pipeline conflict. He has also deployed with the FBI Hostage Rescue Team to numerous other arrest and search warrant events. To assist in negotiations of kidnaped Americans and others, Thundercloud deployed to the countries of Afghanistan, Colombia, England, Greece, Haiti, Honduras, Hungary, Nigeria, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Qatar, and Trinidad and Tobago, as well as inside the United States. In 2011, Mark Thundercloud received the FBI Director’s Meritorious Achievement Award for negotiations conducted during a piracy-related hijacking of the near the coast of Somalia.     Join my reader team to get the 20 clichés about the FBI Reality Checklist, the FBI Reading Resource - Books about the FBI, written by FBI agents, and keep up to date on the FBI in books, TV, and movies. Join here:  https://us12.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=a3799f1fa1e3202c505b5a45a&id=b1b43cd57d Jerri Williams, a retired FBI agent, author and podcaster, attempts to relive her glory days by writing crime fiction about greed and hosting FBI Retired Case File Review, a true crime/history podcast. Her novels—Pay To Play and Greedy Givers—inspired by actual true crime FBI cases, feature temptation, corruption, and redemption, and are available at Amazon.com.   

How often do you get to listen to an hour's worth of wisdom from the from the FBI's former chief hostage negotiator? Well, today we get that chance. Meet Gary Noesner, who led the FBI's Crisis Negotiation Unit until his retirement in 2003. Gary is now a consultant, speaker and author of the book Stalling for Time, part of which forms the basis of a new miniseries on the Paramount Network called “Waco”. Yes, Gary was involved in negotiations with Branch Davidians in the lead up to the 1993 Waco Siege, and his efforts saved lives in the process. Gary talks about that, but this is an episode about so much more. We have a wide-ranging conversation about crisis management, negotiation, the importance of listening, and tons more. I am highly appreciative of Gary coming on to the show and in spite of cold and sore throat, Gary provided an enormous amount of insight into: The different types of hostage negotiations that can happen, including those involving ideology like the Waco siege; The importance of relationships and creating connections in negotiations; Why listening is a fundamental skill in hostage situations; Speaking truth to power; Dealing with nuance and finding common ground; How these skills can be applied to all types of situations; Much more! Show notes:  Gary's website; Gary on LinkedIn; Gary's book, Stalling for Time; Waco on the Paramount Network; The 1993 Waco Siege; Michael Shannon; Steven Covey; The book, Nonsense, the Power of Not Knowing by Jamie Holmes; Dragnet; Colombo; Cats in the Cradle, by Harry Chapin; If, by Rudyard Kipling; “My Way” sung by Frank Sinatra; Behavioural Change Stairway model ___________________ Like what you heard? Subscribe and/or leave a rating and review on: iTunes: http://apple.co/1PjLmKh Stitcher: http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/all-things-risk/the-all-things-risk-podcast www.allthingsrisk.co.uk

Retired agent Gary Noesner served in the FBI for more than 30 years, four as a support employee and 26 as a special agent. During his Bureau career he was an investigator, instructor, and hostage negotiator. A significant focus of his career was directed toward investigating and negotiating numerous crisis incidents covering prison riots, right-wing militia standoffs, religious zealot sieges, terrorist embassy takeovers, airplane hijackings, and over 120 overseas kidnapping cases involving American citizens. In this episode of FBI Retired Case File Review, Gary Noesner reviews the importance of crisis negotiations and stalling for time and how these concepts were used during the Montana Freeman incident. When he retired he was the Chief of the FBI’s Crisis Negotiation Unit, Critical Incident Response Group, the first person to hold that position. He continues to Consult independently and speaks at law enforcement conferences and corporate gatherings around the world. He has appeared on numerous television news programs and documentaries and has been interviewed in major publications addressing hostage negotiation, terrorism, and kidnapping. He has written a book about his career, Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator. The book serves as the basis for a six part mini-series on the 1993 Waco Siege incident that will air on the Paramount Network in January 2018. Gary can be contacted for presentations and speeches via his website.

Retired special agent Toni Chrabot served more than 24 years with the FBI.  Her investigative specialties were public corruption, organized crime, and money laundering.  As a crisis negotiator she responded to a number of kidnappings and barricade situations and as an instructor at the FBI Academy she was designated a subject matter expert in intelligence, interview and interrogation.  She later supervised special agent operations at a satellite office out of FBI Detroit. In this episode of FBI Retired Case File Review, Toni is interviewed about CIRG and specifically the Crisis Negotiation Unit and what the team was responsible for.  She is also interviewed about the kidnapped grandma case involving Hedwig, “Heddy” Braun, held for a $3 million ransom on her 88th birthday.  Prior to retiring, Toni was Assistant Special Agent in Charge of the FBI’s Jacksonville Field Office where she was responsible for criminal, intelligence, cyber and crisis management programs and operations. Shortly after retiring, Toni founded RISK CONFIDENCE GROUP, LLC to provide operational risk consulting and services focused on insider threat, safety & security, risk intelligence, crisis management, and other related areas. Currently, Toni also provides expert commentary for local media outlets, regarding crime, terrorism workplace violence and issues related to the FBI.

Christopher Voss was the FBI's chief hostage negotiator and assigned to the Crisis Negotiation Unit from 2000-2007. He worked cases which included the Jill Carroll case in Iraq, the Steve Centanni case in the Gaza Strip and the DC sniper case in the U.S., among others. How would Christopher Voss approach a hostage situation such as the one in Sydney, Australia, where the hostage taker was quite prepared to die. What does Chris Voss foresee? Guest: Christopher Voss - Founder: Black Swan Group. Strategic business advisory group with a focus on negotiation. (taught counter-terrorism, hostage negotiation and hostage survival.) See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.