Application Security PodCast

Dag Flachet joins us to discuss the concept of Kaizen and its application in improving application security. Dag shares his journey into the world of security, emphasizing the importance of iterative, small-step improvements. The conversation delves into how organizations can effectively implement maturity models to enhance their security programs, the limitations of compliance-focused frameworks like ISO 27,000 and SOC 2, and the practical application of Kaizen principles. They also explore the evolution and future updates of OWASP SAM, and the importance of empowering development teams through a bottom-up approach in security enhancement. Dag is the co-founder of Codific, a professor and board member at the Geneva Business School, and an active member of the OWASP Barcelona Chapter and the OWASP SAMM community. FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Andra Lezza and Javan Rasokat discuss the complexities of securing AI and LLM applications. With years of experience in Application Security (AppSec), Andra and Javan share their journey and lessons from their DEF CON talk on building and defending LLMs. They explore critical vulnerabilities, prompt injection, hallucinations, and the importance of data security. This discussion sheds light on the evolving landscape of AI and LLM security, offering practical advice for developers and security professionals alike. Javan's blog article: Adversarial Misuse of Generative AIJavan's recommendation for the TLDR newsletterAndra's book recommendation: The Cuckoo's Egg by Cliff StollFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Former CISO Jim Routh discusses his perspective on retirement and career fulfillment in cybersecurity. Rather than viewing retirement as simply stopping work, Routh describes his three-filter approach: working only with people he respects and admires, doing only work he finds fulfilling, and controlling when he works. He shares valuable lessons learned about which post-retirement opportunities truly bring satisfaction and explains why he avoids certain roles. Routh emphasizes the importance of cybersecurity professionals taking ownership of their career development, recommending they focus on developing two specific skills annually rather than using tenure to guide career moves. The article written by Jim, published on LinkedIn:CISO Transition Check out previous episodes with Jim:Jim's original AppSec podcast episode is our #1 listened to of all time.Jim Routh -- Selling #AppSec Up The ChainAnd Jim Routh — Secure Software PipelinesFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Henrik Plate joins us to discuss the OWASP Top 10 Open Source Risks, a guide highlighting critical security and operational challenges in using open source dependencies. The list includes risks like known vulnerabilities, compromised legitimate packages, name confusion attacks, and unmaintained software, providing developers and organizations a framework to assess and mitigate potential threats. Henrik offers insights on how developers and AppSec professionals can implement the guidelines. Our discussion also includes the need for a dedicated open-source risk list, and the importance of addressing known vulnerabilities, unmaintained projects, immature software, and more. The OWASP Top 10 Open Source Risks FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Security expert Tanya Janca discusses her new book "Alice and Bob Learn Secure Coding" and shares insights on making security accessible to developers. In this engaging conversation, she explores how security professionals can better connect with developers through threat modeling, maintaining empathy, and creating inclusive learning environments. Tanya emphasizes the importance of system maintenance after deployment and shares practical advice on input validation, while highlighting how security teams can build better relationships with development teams by avoiding arrogance and embracing collaboration.Tanya's new book:  Alice & Bob Learn Secure CodingThree Individuals that Tanya would like to introduce to you:Confidence Staveley https://confidencestaveley.com/Rana Khalil https://www.linkedin.com/in/ranakhalil1Laura Bell Main https://www.laurabellmain.com/FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mehran Koushkebaghi, a seasoned engineering expert, delves into the intricacies of systemic security. He draws parallels between civil engineering and IT systems, and explains the importance of holistic thinking in security design. Discover the difference between semantic and syntactic vulnerabilities and understand how anti-requirements play a critical role in system resilience. This episode offers fresh perspectives on application security.Books recommended by Mehran:Critical System Thinking Book by Mike JacksonThe Fifth Discipline by Peter SengeUnderstanding Complexity on Audible read by Scott E PageNassim Taleb booksFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kalyani Pawar shares critical strategies for integrating security early and effectively in AppSec for startups. She recommends that startups begin focusing on AppSec around the 30-employee mark, with an ideal ratio of one AppSec professional per 10 engineers as the company grows. Pawar emphasizes the importance of building a security culture through "culture as code" - implementing automated guardrails and checkpoints that make security an integral part of the development process. She advises startups to prioritize visibility into their systems, conduct pentests, develop thoughtful policies, and carefully vet third-party tools and open-source solutions. Ultimately, Pawar's approach is about making security a collaborative, integrated effort that doesn't impede innovation but instead supports the startup's long-term success and safety.Kalyani's Book recommendation: The Alignment Problem by Brian Christian FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Milan Williams discusses the importance of application security metrics and how to make them both meaningful and actionable. She explains that metrics are crucial for tracking progress in what can often feel like an overwhelming security landscape, and they're valuable for career advancement and securing resources. We discuss metrics categories and several specific metrics that are good to track.  Milan shares important principles on the importance of making metrics actionable through storytelling and relating security impacts to real-world consequences for users. Milan's Book Recommendation:Quiet Influence: The Introvert's Guide to Making a Difference by Jennifer Kahnweiler FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mo Sadek shares his unique journey of building an Application Security program from scratch at Roblox. Mo discusses his unconventional path, including temporarily joining the infrastructure team to truly understand engineering challenges. He emphasizes that security isn't about mandating rules, but about making processes easier and more secure by default. Mo shares his insights on how to build effective cross-team security relationships and approaches for gaining leadership buy-in. Mo's Book Recommendation: I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream by Harlan Ellison FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Brett Crawley discusses the Elevation of Privilege (EoP) card game, a powerful tool for threat modeling in software development. The discussion explores recent extensions to the game including privacy-focused suits and TRIM (Transfer, Retention/Removal, Inference, Minimization) categories. Crawley emphasizes that threat modeling shouldn't end with the game but should be an ongoing process throughout an application's lifecycle, ideally starting before implementation. He also shares insights from his book, which provides detailed examples and guidance for teams new to threat modeling using EoP.You can find Brett on X @brettcrawleyBrett's book: Threat Modeling Gameplay with EoP: A reference manual for spotting threats in software architectureBook recommendation:Conscious Business by Fred KofmanFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Matin Mavaddat discusses his perspective on security as a systemic concern, developed from his background in requirements engineering and systems architecture. He introduces the concept of "anti-requirements" - defining what a system should not do - and distinguishes between "syntactic security" (addressing technical vulnerabilities that are always incorrect) and "semantic security" (context-dependent security emerging from system interactions). Mavaddat shares his perspective that security itself doesn't have independent existence but rather emerges from preventing undesirable states. The discussion concludes with practical implementation strategies, suggesting that while automated tools can handle syntactic security issues, organizations should focus more energy on semantic security by understanding business context and defining anti-requirements early in the development process.Mentioned in this episode:Matin's article: Reframing Security: Unveiling Power Anti-Requirements  Systems Thinking for Curious Managers by Russell AckoffAntifragile by Nassim Nicholas TalebThe Black Swan by Nassim Nicholas TalebFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kayra Otaner joins the podcast today to discuss DevSecOps and answer the question, is it dead? Kayra is the Director of DevSecOps at Roche and is highly involved in the DevSecOps community. Kayra states that DevSecOps in its traditional form is “dead” and that each organization should approach its needs based on their size. Otaner introduces the concept of "security as code" and "policy as code" as more effective approaches, where security functions are codified rather than relying on traditional documentation and checklists. Finally, they discuss the emergence of Application Security Posture Management (ASPM) tools as the "SIM for AppSec," suggesting these tools, especially when enhanced with AI, could help manage the overwhelming number of security alerts and issues that currently plague development teams.Mentioned in this Episode:Books by Yuval Noah Harari  FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

François Proulx joins Chris and Robert to share his discovery of security vulnerabilities in build pipelines. Francois has found that attackers can exploit this often overlooked side of the software supply chain. To help address this, his team developed an open source scanner called Poutine that can identify vulnerable build pipelines at scale and provide remediation guidance. Francois has over 10 years of experience in building application security programs, he's also the founder of the NorthSec conference in Montreal.Mentioned in the Episode:Cooking for Geeks by Jeff PotterPoutine Living Off the Pipeline projectGrand Theft Actions Abusing Self Hosted GitHub Runners - Adnan Khan and John StawinskiWhere to find Francois:LinkedInX: @francoisproulxPrevious Episodes:François Proulx -- Actionable Software Supply Chain SecurityFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Join hosts Chris Romeo and Robert Hurlbut on the Application Security Podcast as they welcome back Steve Wilson, author of 'The Developer's Playbook for Large Language Model Security.' In this episode, they dive into critical topics such as AI hallucinations, trust, and the future of AI. Steve shares insights from his book, discusses the biggest fears surrounding AI and LLMs. He also provides practical advice on security boundaries, LLM-specific security testing tools, and the evolving landscape of AI technologies. Links:The Developer's Playbook for Large Language Model Security by Steve WilsonFind Steve on LinkedInPrevious Episodes:Steve Wilson -- OWASP Top Ten for LLMsSteve Wilson and Gavin Klondike -- OWASP Top Ten for LLM Applications ReleaseTwo people Steve recommends you look up:Chris Voss, Former FBI Negotiator and author of “Never Split the Difference”Arshan DabirsiaghiFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Join us in this week's episode of the Application Security Podcast where we sit down with Jeff Williams, a renowned pioneer in the field of application security. Jeff discusses ADR (Application Detection and Response), detailing its potential to revolutionize security in production environments. Listen as he shares stories from his career, including the founding of OWASP and his take on security assurance. Whether you're new to AppSec or a seasoned expert, this conversation offers valuable perspectives on the industry's evolution and the challenges ahead.Where to find Jeff:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/planetlevel/ Previous Episodes:Jeff Williams – The Tech of Runtime SecurityJeff Williams – The History of OWASPFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Join Robert and Chris Romeo as they dive into the world of pen testing with their guest Philip Wiley. In this episode, Philip shares his unique journey from professional wrestling to being a renowned pen tester. Hear some great stories from his wrestling days, in-depth discussions on application security, and good advice on starting a career in cybersecurity. Whether you're interested in pen testing techniques, learning about security origin stories, or gaining insights into career development, this episode has something for everyone!The Pentester Blueprint Starting a Career as an Ethical Hacker written by Phillip WylieThe Web Application Hacker's Handbook written by Dafydd Stuttard, Marcus PintoWhere to find Phillip:Website:  https://thehackermaker.com/Podcast: https://phillipwylieshow.com/X: https://x.com/PhillipWylieLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/phillipwylie/FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In this episode of the Application Security Podcast, hosts Chris Romeo and Robert Hurlbut welcome back Steve Springett, an expert in secure software development and a key figure in several OWASP projects. Steve unpacks CycloneDX and the value proposition of various BOMs. He gives us a rundown of the BOM landscape and unveils some new BOM projects that will continue to unify the security industry. Steve is a seasoned guest of the show so we learn a bit more about Steve's hobbies, providing a personal glimpse into his life outside of technology.Links from this episode:https://cyclonedx.org/Previous episodes with Steve Springett:JC Herz and Steve Springett -- SBOMs and software supply chain assuranceSteve Springett — An insiders checklist for Software Composition AnalysisSteve Springett -- Dependency Check and Dependency TrackBook: Software Transparency: Supply Chain Security in an Era of a Software-Driven Society by Chris Hughes and Tony TurnerFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Join Irfaan Santoe and hosts Chris Romeo and Robert Hurlbut for an in-depth discussion on the maturity and strategy of Application Security programs. They delve into measuring AppSec maturity, return on investment, and communicating technical needs to business leaders. Irfaan shares his unique journey from consulting to becoming an AppSec professional, and addresses the gaps between CISOs and AppSec knowledge. This episode provides valuable insights for scaling AppSec programs and aligning them with business objectives. FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Join Chris Romeo and Robert Hurlbut as they sit down with Andrew Van Der Stok, a leading web application security specialist and executive director at OWASP. In this episode, Andrew discusses the latest with the OWASP Top 10 Project, the importance of data collection, and the need for developer engagement. Learn about the methodology behind building the OWASP Top 10, the significance of framework security, and much more. Tune in to get vital insights that could shape the future of web application security. Don't miss this informative discussion!Previous episodes with Andrew Van Der StockAndrew van der Stock — Taking Application Security to the MassesAndrew van der Stock and Brian Glas -- The Future of the OWASP Top 10Books mentioned in the episode:The Crown Road by Iain BanksEdward Tufte FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In this episode of the Application Security Podcast, Chris Romeo and Robert Hurlbut welcome back Derek Fisher, an expert in hardware, software, and cybersecurity with over 25 years of experience. Derek shares his advice on cybersecurity hiring, specifically in application security, and dives into the challenges of entry-level roles in the industry. The discussion also explores the value of certifications, the necessity of lifelong learning, and the importance of networking. Tune in for valuable insights on getting noticed in cybersecurity, resume tips, and the evolving landscape of AppSec careers.Mentioned in this episode:The Application Security Handbook by Derek FisherWith the Old Breed by E.B. SledgeCyber for Builders by Ross HaleliukEffective Vulnerability Management by Chris HughesPrevious episode:Derek Fisher – The Application Security HandbookFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Join us for a conversation with Tanya Janka, also known as SheHacksPurple, as she discusses secure guardrails, the difference between guardrails and paved roads, and how to implement both in application security.  Tanya, an award-winning public speaker and head of education at SEMGREP, shares her insights on creating secure software and teaching developers. Tanya also shares with us about her hobby farm and love for gardening. Mentioned in this episode:Tanya Janca – What Secure Coding Really Means Tanya Janca – Mentoring Monday - 5 Minute AppSec Tanya Janca and Nicole Becher – Hacking APIs and Web Services with DevSlopThe Expanse Series by James S.A. CoreyAlice and Bob Learn Application Security by Tanya Janca FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In this episode of the Application Security Podcast, hosts Chris Romeo and Robert Hurlbut are joined by Jahanzeb Farooq to discuss his journey in cybersecurity and the challenges of building AppSec programs from scratch. Jahanzeb shares his experience working in various industries, including Siemens, Novo Nordisk, and Danske Bank, highlighting the importance of understanding developer needs and implementing the right tools. The conversation covers the complexities of cybersecurity in the pharmaceutical and financial sectors, shedding light on regulatory requirements and the role of software in critical industries. Learn about prioritizing security education, threat modeling, and navigating digital transformation.Mentioned in this Episode:The Power of Habit by Charles DuhiggFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In this episode of the Application Security Podcast, hosts Chris Romeo and Robert Hurlbut engage in a deep discussion with guest David Quisenberry about various aspects of application security. They cover David's journey into the security world, insights on building AppSec programs in small to mid-sized companies, and the importance of data-driven decision-making. The conversation also delves into the value of mentoring, the vital role of trust with engineering teams, and the significance of mental health and community in the industry. Additionally, Chris, David and Robert share personal stories that emphasize the importance of relationships and balance in life. Books Shared in the Episode:SRE Engineering by Betsy Beyer, Chris Jones, Jennifer Petoff and Niall Richard Murphy  The Phoenix Project by Gene Kim, Kevin Behr and George Spafford Security Chaos Engineering by Aaron Rinehart and Kelly Shortridge CISO Desk Reference Guide by Bill Bonney, Gary Hayslip, Matt Stamper Wiring the Winning Organization by Gene Kim and Dr. Steven J. Spear The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk, M.D. Intelligence Driven Incident Response by Rebekah Brown and Scott J. Roberts Never Eat Alone by Keith Ferrazzi  Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman Do Hard Things by Steve Magness How Leaders Create and Use Networks, Whitepaper by Herminia Ibarra and Mark Lee HunterFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In this episode of the Application Security Podcast, hosts Chris Romeo and Robert Hurlbut welcome Matt Rose, an experienced technical AppSec testing leader. Matt discusses his career journey and significant contributions in AppSec. The conversation delves into the nuances of software supply chain security, exploring how different perceptions affect its understanding. Matt provides insights into the XZ compromise, critiques the buzzword 'shift left,' and discusses the role of digital twins and AI in enhancing the supply chain security. He emphasizes the need for a comprehensive approach beyond SCA, the relevance of threat modeling, and the potential risks and benefits of AI in security. The discussion also touches on industry trends, the importance of understanding marketing terms, and the future directions of AppSec.Mentioned in the episode:The Application Security Program Handbook by Derek Fisher https://www.manning.com/books/application-security-program-handbookPodcast Episode: Derek Fisher – The Application Security Program Handbook https://youtu.be/DgmlHgNT-UMAuthors mentioned: Steven E. Ambrose  https://www.simonandschuster.com/authors/Stephen-E-Ambrose/1063454 Mark Frost  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_FrostFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In this episode of the Application Security Podcast, host Chris Romeo welcomes James Berthoty, a cloud security engineer with a diverse IT background, to discuss his journey into application and product security. The conversation spans James's career trajectory from IT operations to cloud security, his experiences with security tools like Snyk and StackHawk, and the evolving landscape of Dynamic Application Security Testing (DAST) and API security. They delve into the practical challenges of CVEs, reachability analysis, and the complexities of patching in mid-sized companies. James shares his views on the often misunderstood role of WAF and the importance of fixing issues over merely identifying them. The discussion concludes with insights into James's initiative, Latio Tech, which aims to help security professionals evaluate and understand application security products better. James Berthoty's LinkedIn post: AppSec Kool-Aid Statements I Disagree Withhttps://www.linkedin.com/posts/james-berthoty_appsec-kool-aid-statements-i-disagree-with-activity-7166084208686256128-tb1U?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktopWhat is Art by Leo Tolstoyhttps://www.gutenberg.org/files/64908/64908-h/64908-h.htmFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mark Curphey and Simon Bennetts, join Chris on the podcast to discuss the challenges of funding and sustaining major open source security projects like ZAP. Curphey shares about going fully independent and building a non-profit sustainable model for ZAP. The key is getting companies in the industry, especially companies commercializing ZAP, to properly fund its ongoing development and maintenance.Bennetts, who has led ZAP for over 15 years, shares the harsh reality that while ZAP is likely the world's most popular web scanner with millions of active users per month, very few companies contribute back financially despite making millions by building products and services on top of ZAP. Curphey and Bennetts are asking those in the industry to step up and properly fund open source projects like ZAP that are critical infrastructure, rather than freeloading off the hard work of a few individuals. Curphey's company is investing substantial funds in a "responsible marketing" model to sustain ZAP as a non-profit, with hopes others will follow this ethical example to prevent open source security going down a dangerous path.FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Devon Rudnicki, the Chief Information Security Officer at Fitch Group, shares her journey of developing an application security program from scratch and advancing to the CISO role. She emphasizes the importance of collaboration, understanding the organization's business, and using metrics to drive positive change in the security program.Elon Musk - Walter IsaacsonSteve Jobs - Walter IsaacsonThe Code Breaker: Jennifer Doudna, Gene Editing, and the Future of the Human Race - Walter Isaacsonhttps://www.simonandschuster.com/authors/Walter-Isaacson/697650FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dustin Lehr, Senior Director of Platform Security/Deputy CISO at Fivetran and Chief Solutions Officer at Katilyst Security, joins Robert and Chris to discuss security champions. Dustin explains the concept of security champions within the developer community, exploring the unique qualities and motivations behind developers becoming security advocates. He emphasizes the importance of fostering a security culture and leveraging gamification to engage developers effectively. They also cover the challenges of implementing security practices within the development process and how to justify the need for a champion program to engineering leadership. Dustin shares insights from his career transition from a developer to a cybersecurity professional, and he provides practical advice for organizations looking to enhance their security posture through community and culture-focused approaches.Links:"Maker's Schedule, Manager's Schedule" article by Paul Graham — https://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.htmlNever Split the Difference by Chris Voss & Tahl Raz —https://www.harpercollins.com/products/never-split-the-difference-chris-vosstahl-raz?variant=32117745385506FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Francesco Cipollone, CEO of Phoenix Security, joins Chris and Robert to discuss security and explain Application Security Posture Management (ASPM). Francesco shares his journey from developer to cybersecurity leader, revealing the origins and importance of ASPM. The discussion covers the distinction between application security and product security, the evolution of ASPM from SIEM solutions, and ASPM's role in managing asset vulnerabilities and software security holistically. Francesco emphasizes the necessity of involving the business side in security decisions and explains how ASPM enables actionable, risk-based decision-making. The episode also touches on the impact of AI on ASPM. It concludes with Francesco advocating for a stronger integration between security, development, and business teams to effectively manage software security risks.Recommended Reading:Cyber for Builders: The Essential Guide to Building a Cybersecurity Startup by Ross Haleliuk — https://ventureinsecurity.net/p/cyber-for-buildersFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mukund Sarma, the Senior Director for Product Security at Chime, talks with Chris about his career path from being a software engineer to becoming a leader in application security. He explains how he focuses on building security tools that are easy for developers to use and stresses the importance of looking at application security as a part of the broader category of product security. Mukund highlights the role of collaboration over security mandates and the introduction of security scorecards for proactive risk management. He and Chris also discuss the strategic implementation of embedded security functions within development teams. Discover the potential of treating security as an enabling function for developers, fostering a culture of shared responsibility, and the innovative approaches Chime employs to secure its services with minimal friction for developers.LinksChime's Monocle-- https://medium.com/life-at-chime/monocle-how-chime-creates-a-proactive-security-engineering-culture-part-1-dedd3846127f-- https://medium.com/life-at-chime/mitigating-risky-pull-requests-with-monocle-risk-advisor-part-2-7013e1485bf2Introduction to Overwatch-- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtZKBtw8VO4Recommended ReadingBuilding Secure and Reliable Systems by Adkins, Beyer, Blankinship, Lewandowski, Oprea, Stubblefield -- https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/building-secure-and/9781492083115/Drive by Daniel Pink -- https://www.danpink.com/books/drive/FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

AppSec specialist Megan Jacquot joins Chris and Robert for a compelling conversation about community, career paths, and productive red team exercises. Megan shares her unique cybersecurity origin story, tracing her interest in the field from childhood influences through her tenure as an educator and her formal return to academia to pivot into a tech-focused career. She delves into her roles in threat intelligence and application security, emphasizing her passion for technical work, penetration testing, and bug bounty programs. Additionally, Megan highlights the importance of mentorship, her involvement with the Women in Cybersecurity (WeCyS) community, and her dedication to fostering the next generation of cybersecurity professionals. The discussion covers assumed breach and red team engagements in cybersecurity, the significance of empathy in bug bounty interactions, tips for Call for Papers (CFP) submissions, and the value of community engagement within organizations like OWASP and DEF CON. Megan concludes with insights on the importance of difficult conversations and giving back to the cybersecurity community.LinksDifficult Conversations (How to Discuss What Matters Most) by Douglas Stone, Bruce Patton, Sheila Heen -- https://www.stoneandheen.com/difficult-conversationsBeing Henry: The Fonz...and Beyond by Henry Winkler -- https://celadonbooks.com/book/being-henry-fonz-and-beyond-henry-winkler/FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Robert is joined by Bill Sempf, an application security architect with over 20 years of experience in software development and security. Bill shares his security origins as a curious child immersed in technology, leading to his lifelong dedication to application security. They discuss CodeMash, a developer conference in Ohio, and recount Bill's presentation on the Veilid application framework, designed for privacy-driven mobile applications. Bill also explores his efforts in educating children about technology and programming, drawing on his experiences with Kidsmash and other initiatives. Additionally, they delve into the challenges of application security, particularly modern software development practices and the utility of languages like Rust for creating secure applications. Bill concludes with intriguing thoughts on application security trends and the importance of a diverse skill set for both developers and security professionals.Helpful Links:Bill's homepage - https://www.sempf.net/CodeMash conference - https://codemash.orgVeilid Application Framework - https://veilid.com/Math Without Numbers - https://www.amazon.com/Math-Without-Numbers-Milo-Beckman/dp/1524745545FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Robert and Chris talk with Hendrik Ewerlin, a threat modeling advocate and trainer. Hendrik believes you can threat model anything, and he recently applied threat modeling to the process of threat modeling itself. His conclusions are published in the document Threat Modeling of Threat Modeling, where he aims to help practitioners, in his own words, "tame the threats to the threat modeling process." They explore the role of threat modeling in software development, emphasizing the dire consequences of overlooking this crucial process. They discuss why threat modeling serves as a cornerstone for security, and why Hendrik stresses the importance of adopting a process that is effective, efficient, and satisfying. If you care about secure software, you will want to listen in as Hendrik emphasizes why the approach to threat modeling, as well as the process itself, is so critical to success in security.Links:=> Hendrik Ewerlin: https://hendrik.ewerlin.com/security/=> Threat Modeling of Threat Modeling: https://threat-modeling.net/threat-modeling-of-threat-modeling/Recommended Reading:=> Steal Like An Artist and other books by Austin Kleon https://austinkleon.com/books/FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jason Nelson, an accomplished expert in information security management, joins Chris to share insights on establishing successful threat modeling programs in data-intensive industries like finance and healthcare. Jason presents his three main pillars to consider when establishing a threat modeling program: consistency, repeatability, and efficacy. The discussion also provides a series of fascinating insights into security practices, regulatory environments, and the value of a threat modeling champion. As a threat modeling practitioner, Jason provides an essential perspective to anyone serious about application security.FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Eric Cabetas joins Robert and Chris for a thought-provoking discussion about modern software security. They talk about the current state of vulnerabilities, the role of memory-safe languages in AppSec, and why IncludeSec takes a highly methodical approach to security assessments and bans OWASP language. Along the way, Eric shares about his entry into cybersecurity and his experience consulting about hacking for TV shows and movies. The conversation doesn't end before they peek into the world of threat modeling, software engineering architecture, and the nuances of running security programs.Helpful Links:Security Engineering by Ross Anderson - https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Security+Engineering%3A+A+Guide+to+Building+Dependable+Distributed+Systems%2C+3rd+Edition-p-9781119642817New School of Information Security by Adam Shostack and Andrew Stewart - https://www.informit.com/store/new-school-of-information-security-9780132800280FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Justin Collins of Gusto joins Robert and Chris for a practical conversation about running security teams in an engineering-minded organization. Justin shares his experience leading product security teams, the importance of aligning security with business goals, and the challenges arising from the intersection of product security and emerging technologies like GenAI.They also discuss the concept of security partners and the future of AI applications in the field of cybersecurity. And he doesn't finish before sharing insights into the role of GRC and privacy in the current security landscape. Find out why Justin believes that above all, security should align with the goals of a business, tailored to the business itself, its situation, and its resources.Book Recommendation:The DevOps Handbook by Gene Kim et al.https://itrevolution.com/product/the-devops-handbook-second-edition/FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kyle Kelly joins Chris to explore the wild west of software supply chain security. Kyle, author of the CramHacks newsletter, sheds light on the complicated and often misunderstood world of software supply chain security. He brings unique insights into the challenges, issues, and potential solutions in this constantly growing field. From his experiences in sectors like cybersecurity and security research, he adapts a critical perspective on the state of the software supply chain, suggesting it is in a 'dumpster fire' state. We'll dissect that incendiary claim and discuss the influence of open-source policies, the role of GRC, and the importance of build reproducibility. From starters to experts, anyone with even a mild interest in software security and its future will find this conversation enlightening.Links:CramHacks - https://www.cramhacks.com/Solve for Happy by Mo Gawdat - https://www.panmacmillan.com/authors/mo-gawdat/solve-for-happy/9781509809950FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Chris Hughes, co-founder of Aquia, joins Chris and Robert on the Application Security Podcast to discuss points from his recent book Software Transparency: Supply Chain Security in an Era of a Software-Driven Society, co-authored with Tony Turner. The conversation touches on the U.S. government in the software supply chain, the definition and benefits of software transparency, the concept of a software bill of materials (SBOM), and the growth of open-source software. The episode also covers crucial topics like compliance versus real security in software startups, the role of SOC 2 in setting security baselines, and the importance of threat modeling in understanding software supply chain risks. They also talk about the imbalance between software suppliers and consumers in terms of information transparency and the burden on developers and engineers to handle vulnerability lists with little context.As an expert in the field, Chris touches on the broader challenges facing the cybersecurity community, including the pitfalls of overemphasizing technology at the expense of building strong relationships and trust. He advocates for a more holistic approach to security, one that prioritizes people over technology.LinksSoftware Transparency: Supply Chain Security in an Era of a Software-Driven Society by Chris Hughes and Tony Turnerhttps://www.wiley.com/en-us/Software+Transparency%3A+Supply+Chain+Security+in+an+Era+of+a+Software+Driven+Society-p-9781394158492Application Security Program Handbook by Derek Fisher https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Application-Security-Program-Handbook/Derek-Fisher/9781633439818Agile Application Security by Laura Bell, Michael Brunton-Spall, Rich Smith, Jim Birdhttps://www.oreilly.com/library/view/agile-application-security/9781491938836/CNCF Catalog of Supply Chain Compromiseshttps://github.com/cncf/tag-security/blob/main/supply-chain-security/compromises/README.mdFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jay Bobo and Darylynn Ross from CoverMyMeds join Chris to explain their assertion that 'AppSec is Dead.' They discuss the differences between product and application security, emphasizing the importance of proper security practices and effective communication with senior leaders, engineers, and other stakeholders. Jay proposes that product security requires a holistic approach and cautions against the current state of penetration testing in web applications. Darylynn encourages AppSec engineers to broaden their scope beyond individual applications to product security. With enlightening insights and practical advice, this episode thoughtfully challenges AppSec professionals with new ideas about application and product security.Links:Jay recommends:How to Measure Anything in Cybersecurity Risk, 2nd Editionby Douglas W. Hubbard, Richard Seiersenhttps://www.wiley.com/en-us/How+to+Measure+Anything+in+Cybersecurity+Risk%2C+2nd+Edition-p-9781119892311Darylynn recommends:Kristin Hannah: https://kristinhannah.com/FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Eitan Worcel joins the Application Security Podcast, to talk automated code fixes and the role of artificial intelligence in application security. We start with a thought-provoking discussion about the consistency and reliability of AI-generated responses in fixing vulnerabilities like Cross-Site Scripting (XSS). The conversation highlights a future where AI on one side writes code while AI on the other side fixes it, raising questions about the outcomes of such a scenario.The discussion shifts to the human role in using AI for automated code fixes. Human oversight is important in setting policies or rules to guide AI, as opposed to letting it run wild on the entire code base. This controlled approach, akin to a 'controlled burn,' aims at deploying AI in a way that's beneficial and manageable, without overwhelming developers with excessive changes or suggestions.We also explore the efficiency gains expected from AI in automating tedious tasks like fixing code vulnerabilities. We compare this to the convenience of household robots like Roomba, imagining a future where AI takes care of repetitive tasks, enhancing developer productivity. However, we also address potential pitfalls, such as AI's tendency to 'hallucinate' or generate inaccurate solutions, underscoring the need for caution and proper validation of AI-generated fixes.This episode offers a balanced perspective on the integration of AI in application security, highlighting both its promising potential and the challenges that need to be addressed. Join us as we unravel the complexities and future of AI in AppSec, understanding how it can revolutionize the field while remaining vigilant about its limitations.Recommended Reading from Eitan: The Hard Thing About Hard Things by Ben Horowitz - https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-hard-thing-about-hard-things-ben-horowitz?variant=32122118471714FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bjorn Kimminich, the driving force behind the OWASP Juice Shop project, joins Chris and Robert to discuss all things Juice Shop. The OWASP Juice Shop is a deliberately vulnerable web application that serves as an invaluable training tool for security professionals and enthusiasts. Bjorn provides a comprehensive overview of the latest features and challenges introduced in the Juice Shop, underscoring the project's commitment to simulating real-world security scenarios.Key highlights include the introduction of coding challenges, where users must identify and fix code vulnerabilities. This interactive approach enhances the learning experience and bridges the gap between theoretical knowledge and practical application. Additionally, Bjorn delves into the integration of Web3 and smart contracts within the Juice Shop, reflecting the project's adaptation to emerging technologies in the blockchain domain. This integration poses new challenges and learning opportunities, making the Juice Shop a continually relevant and evolving platform for cybersecurity training.The episode concludes with an acknowledgment of the project's maintenance efforts and the introduction of a novel cheating detection mechanism. This system assesses the patterns and speed of challenge completions, ensuring the integrity of the learning process. Bjorn's discussion also highlights the inclusion of 'shenanigan' challenges, adding a layer of fun and creativity to the application. The significant impact of the Juice Shop on the cybersecurity community, as a tool for honing skills and understanding complex security vulnerabilities, is evident throughout the discussion, marking this episode as an essential watch for those in the field.Links:OWASP Juice Shop - https://owasp.org/www-project-juice-shop/Pwning OWASP Juice Shop by Björn Kimminich. The official companion guide to the OWASP Juice Shop - https://leanpub.com/juice-shop"OWASP Juice Shop Jingle" by Brian Johnson of 7 Minute Security - https://soundcloud.com/braimee/owasp-juice-shop-jingleFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Arshan Dabirsiaghi of Pixee joins Robert and Chris to discuss startups, AI in appsec, and Pixee's Codemodder.io. The conversation begins with a focus on the unrealistic expectations placed on developers regarding security. Arshan points out that even with training, developers may not remember or apply security measures effectively, especially in complex areas like deserialization. This leads to a lengthy and convoluted process for fixing security issues, a problem that Arshan and his team have been working to address through their open-source tool, Codemodder.io.Chris and Arshan discuss the dynamic nature of the startup world. Chris reflects on the highs and lows experienced in a single day, emphasizing the importance of having a resilient team that can handle these fluctuations. They touch upon the role of negativity in an organization and its potential to hinder progress. Arshan then delves into the history of Contrast Security and its pioneering work in defining RASP (Runtime Application Self-Protection) and IAST (Interactive Application Security Testing) as key concepts in appsec.The group also explores the future of AI in application security. Arshan expresses his view that AI will serve more as a helper than a replacement in the short term. He believes that those who leverage AI will outperform those who don't. The conversation also covers the potential risks of relying too heavily on AI, such as the introduction of vulnerabilities and the loss of understanding in code development. Arshan emphasizes the importance of a feedback loop in the development process, where each change is communicated to the developer, fostering a learning environment. This approach aims to improve developers' understanding of security issues and promote better coding practices.Links:Pixee https://www.pixee.ai/Pixee's Codemodder.io: https://codemodder.io/Book Recommendation:Hacking: The Art of Exploitation, Vol. 2  by John Erickson: https://nostarch.com/hacking2.htmAleph One's "Smashing The Stack for Fun and Profit":http://phrack.org/issues/49/14.htmlTim Newsham's "Format String Attacks": https://seclists.org/bugtraq/2000/Sep/214Matt Conover's "w00w00 on Heap Overflows" (reposted):https://www.cgsecurity.org/exploit/heaptut.txtJeremiah Grossman, aka rain forest puppy (rfp):https://www.jeremiahgrossman.com/#writingJustin Rosenstein's original codemod on GitHub:https://github.com/facebookarchive/codemodFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Chris and Robert are thrilled to have an insightful conversation with Dr. Jared Demott, a seasoned expert in the field of cybersecurity. The discussion traverses a range of topics, from controversial opinions on application security to the practical aspects of managing bug bounty programs in large corporations like Microsoft.We dive into the technicalities of bug bounty programs, exploring how companies like Microsoft handle the influx of reports and the importance of such programs in a comprehensive security strategy. Dr. Demott provides valuable insights into the evolution of bug classes and the never-ending challenge of addressing significant bug types, emphasizing that no bug class can ever be fully eradicated.This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the nuances of software security, the realities of cybersecurity employment, and the ongoing challenges in bug mitigation. Join us for an enlightening journey into the heart of application security with Dr. Jared Demott.Links:Microsoft Security Response Center MSRC: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/msrcFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dr. Katarina Koerner, a renowned advisor and community builder with expertise in privacy by design and responsible AI, joins Chris and Robert to delve into the intricacies of responsible AI in this episode of the Application Security Podcast. She explores how security intersects with AI, discusses the ethical implications of AI's integration into daily life, and emphasizes the importance of educating ourselves about AI risk management frameworks. She also highlights the crucial role of AI security engineers, the ethical debates around using AI in education, and the significance of international AI governance. This discussion is a deep dive into the world of AI, privacy, security, and ethics, offering valuable insights for tech professionals, policy makers, and individuals alike.Links:UNESCO Recommendation on the Ethics of Artificial Intelligence:  https://www.unesco.org/en/artificial-intelligence?hub=32618OECD AI Principles: https://oecd.ai/en/ai-principlesWhite House Blueprint for an AI Bill of Rights: https://www.whitehouse.gov/ostp/ai-bill-of-rights/NIST AI Risk Management Framework: https://www.nist.gov/itl/ai-risk-management-frameworkNIST Adversarial Machine Learning: A Taxonomy and Terminology of Attacks and Mitigations: https://csrc.nist.gov/pubs/ai/100/2/e2023/ipdMicrosoft Responsible AI Standard, v2: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/ai/principles-and-approach==> Microsoft Failure Modes in Machine Learning: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/security/engineering/failure-modes-in-machine-learningENISA Securing Machine Learning Algorithms: https://www.enisa.europa.eu/publications/securing-machine-learning-algorithmsGoogle Secure AI Framework (SAIF): https://developers.google.com/machine-learning/resources/saif==> Google Why Red Teams Play a Central Role in Helping Organizations Secure AI Systems: https://services.google.com/fh/files/blogs/google_ai_red_team_digital_final.pdfRecommended Book:The Ethical Algorithm: The Science of Socially Aware Algorithm Design  by Michael Kearns and Aaron Roth: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-ethical-algorithm-9780190948207?cc=us&lang=en&FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For Security Pros & Business Leaders | Strategic Insights & Leadership Lessons

Chris John Riley joins Chris and Robert to discuss the Minimum Viable Secure Product. MVSP is a minimalistic security checklist for B2B software and business process outsourcing suppliers. It was designed by a team that included experts from Google, Salesforce, Okta, and Slack. The MVSP objectives are targeted at startups and other companies creating new applications, helping such organizations meet security standards expected by larger enterprises like Google. The MVSP is designed to be accessible for users, as a way to streamline the process of vendor assessment and procurement from the start to the contractual control stages.Using MVSP, developers and application security enthusiasts can establish a baseline for building secure applications. MVSP includes controls about business operations, application design, implementation, and operational controls. For instance, it encourages third-party penetration testing on applications, as it believes that every product has an issue somewhere and needs regular testing to maintain a good security posture. The controls are designed to be reasonable and achievable, but also evolutionary to keep up with changes in the cybersecurity landscape.Moving forward, MVSP intends to continue updating its guidelines to reflect the realities of the software development landscape but to keep the number of controls manageable to maintain wide acceptance. Chris encourages firms to consider MVSP as a baseline during the Request for Proposal (RFP) process to ensure prospective vendors meet the required security guidelines.Links:Minimum Viable Secure Product:  https://mvsp.dev/Recommended Books:Cybersecurity Myths and Misconceptions... by Eugene H. Spafford, Leigh Metcalf, and Josiah Dykstra: https://www.pearson.com/en-us/subject-catalog/p/cybersecurity-myths-and-misconceptions-avoiding-the-hazards-and-pitfalls-that-derail/P200000007269/9780137929238Phantoms in the Brain: Probing the Mysteries of the Human Mind  by V.S. Ramachandranhttps://www.harpercollins.com/products/phantoms-in-the-brain-v-s-ramachandran?variant=32130994110498FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Steve Wilson and Gavin Klondike are part of the core team for the OWASP Top 10 for Large Language Model Applications project. They join Robert and Chris to discuss the implementation and potential challenges of AI, and present the OWASP Top Ten for LLM version 1.0. Steve and Gavin provide insights into the issues of prompt injection, insecure output handling, training data poisoning, and others. Specifically, they emphasize the significance of understanding the risk of allowing excessive agency to LLMs and the role of secure plugin designs in mitigating vulnerabilities.The conversation dives deep into the importance of secure supply chains in AI development, looking at the potential risks associated with downloading anonymous models from community-sharing platforms like Huggingface. The discussion also highlights the potential threat implications of hallucinations, where AI produces results based on what it thinks it's expected to produce and tends to please people, rather than generating factually accurate results. Wilson and Klondike also discuss how certain standard programming principles, such as 'least privilege', can be applied to AI development. They encourage developers to conscientiously manage the extent of privileges they give to their models to avert discrepancies and miscommunications from excessive agency. They conclude the discussion with a forward-looking perspective on how the OWASP Top Ten for LLM Applications will develop in the future.Links:OWASP Top Ten for LLM Applications project homepage:https://owasp.org/www-project-top-10-for-large-language-model-applications/OWASP Top Ten for LLM Applications summary PDF: https://owasp.org/www-project-top-10-for-large-language-model-applications/assets/PDF/OWASP-Top-10-for-LLMs-2023-slides-v1_1.pdfFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tanya Janca, also known as SheHacksPurple, joins the Application Security Podcast again to discuss secure coding, threat modeling, education, and other topics in the AppSec world. With a rich background spanning over 25 years in IT, coding, and championing cybersecurity, Tanya delves into the essence of secure coding.Tanya highlights the difference between teaching developers about vulnerabilities and teaching them the practices to avoid these vulnerabilities in the first place. Instead of focusing on issues like SQL injection, she emphasizes the importance of proactive measures like input validation and always using parameterized queries. She believes teaching developers how to build secure applications is more effective than merely pointing out vulnerabilities.She also explains the importance of a secure system development life cycle (SDLC). Software companies often state "We take your security seriously." Tanya believes the phrase should only be used by companies that have a secure SDLC in place. Without it, the phrase is rendered meaningless.Discussing the intersection of coding and threat modeling, Tanya shares personal anecdotes that underscore the need to view systems with a critical eye, always anticipating potential vulnerabilities and threats. She recounts her initial reactions during threat modeling sessions, where she is surprised by the myriad ways applications can be exploited.One of her most crucial takeaways for developers is the principle of distrust and verification. Tanya stresses that when writing code, developers should not trust any input or connection blindly. Everything received should be validated to ensure its integrity and safety. This practice, she believes, not only ensures the security of applications but also makes the lives of incident responders easier.Toward the end of the podcast, Tanya recommends This is How They Tell Me the World Ends," which offers a deep dive into the zero-day industry. She lauds the book for its meticulous research and compelling narrative. The episode wraps up with Tanya encouraging listeners to stay connected with her work and to anticipate her upcoming book.Links:Alice and Bob Learn Application Security by Tanya Janca     https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Alice+and+Bob+Learn+Application+Security-p-9781119687405This is How They Tell Me the World Ends by Nicole Perlroth     https://thisishowtheytellmetheworldends.com/WeHackPurple     https://wehackpurple.com/FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hasan Yasar believes that everyone shares the responsibility of creating a secure environment, and this can only be achieved by working collaboratively. He underscores the idea that security is not an isolated endeavor but a collective effort, urging everyone to come together and build a world where safety and security are paramount.Yasar also shares his thoughts about education and security. He highlights the need for integrating security concepts right from the foundational levels of teaching programming languages. By introducing concepts like input validation and sanitization early on, students can be better equipped to handle security challenges in their professional lives. Yasar also mentions the importance of bridging the gap between real-world problems and academic research. By organizing workshops and connecting researchers with real-world challenges, there's an opportunity to create more awareness and solutions that are grounded in practicality.He contrasts the challenges faced in developing complex systems like simulators with those of web applications. In the context of simulators, every aspect, from memory management to user interface, needs to be meticulously crafted, keeping both safety and security in mind. This holistic approach ensures that safety and security are intertwined, ensuring a robust system. On the other hand, with web applications, developers often only see the tip of the iceberg, unaware of the underlying dependencies, making security a more challenging endeavor.Hasan Yasar introduces Chris and Robert to the concept of "actionable SBOM" (Software Bill of Materials). He passionately argues against viewing the SBOM as just a static file tucked away in repositories. Instead, Yasar champions the idea that it should be actively integrated into the infrastructure as code. This ensures that when deploying tools like Docker containers, there's a consistent alignment between the software components and their documented versions in the SBOM.Yasar further underscores the importance of real-time monitoring of the SBOM, especially in a production environment. This proactive approach not only keeps track of the software components but also alerts organizations to new vulnerabilities as they arise. By integrating the SBOM with vulnerability management tools, organizations can maintain a secure environment, ensuring timely updates and patches when potential threats are detected.The podcast also touches upon the challenges of maintaining an actionable SBOM in fast-paced development environments, where software updates can occur multiple times a day. However, Yasar remains optimistic. He believes that with the right mindset and tools, it's entirely possible to keep the SBOM updated and relevant, making it an invaluable asset in the ever-evolving world of software development and security.Links:Software Transparency: Supply Chain Security in an Era of a Software-Driven Society by Chris Hughes, Tony Turnerhttps://www.amazon.com/dp/1394158483?ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_PHSFCKCRM7Q8KZ41RDXTCybersecurity First Principles: A Reboot of Strategy and Tactics  by Rick Howardhttps://www.amazon.com/Cybersecurity-First-Principles-Strategy-Tactics/dp/1394173083Carnegie Mellon UniversiFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Varun Badhwar is a three-time founder, a luminary in the cyber security industry, and a clear communicator. He joins Chris and Robert on the Application Security Podcast to discuss scanning with context, SBOM plus VEX, and the developer productivity tax. The concept of a "Developer Productivity Tax" acknowledges the challenges developers face when bombarded with a plethora of vulnerabilities. This "tax" represents the drain on developers' time and resources as they navigate through a myriad of potential threats, many of which lack actionable context. The inefficiencies arising from this process can lead to significant delays in software development, emphasizing the need for more refined tools and techniques.A key solution Varun offers is the integration of SBOM plus VEX (Software Bill of Materials with Vulnerability Exploitability eXchange). While SBOM offers transparency by detailing all software components and dependencies, it can be overwhelming due to the sheer volume of potential vulnerabilities it flags. VEX, designed as a companion to SBOM, provides the much-needed context, detailing the applicability, reachability, and availability of fixes for vulnerabilities. This combination aims to streamline the vulnerability management process, ensuring that only relevant and critical threats are addressed.Lastly, the importance of "Scanning with Context" was emphasized. Traditional vulnerability scanning can often result in a multitude of false positives or irrelevant findings due to the lack of context. The podcast delved into the two primary approaches to contextual scanning: static analysis and runtime analysis. While both methods have their merits, the discussion leaned towards static analysis for its scalability and efficiency. The episode concluded by stressing the need for further research and development in vulnerability annotation to specific code functions, ensuring a more precise and actionable vulnerability management process.Important Links:Endor Labs - https://www.endorlabs.com/Recommended books:The Hard Thing About Hard Things by Ben HorowitzSoftware Transparency: Supply Chain Security in an Era of a Software-Driven Society by Chris Hughes, Tony TurnerFOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Application Security Podcast presents the OWASP Board of Directors Debate for the 2023 elections. This is a unique and engaging discussion among six candidates vying for a position on the board. Throughout the debate, candidates address pressing questions about their priorities as potential board members, the future direction of OWASP, and strategies for community growth and vendor neutrality. Topics such as vendor agnosticism, the allocation of profits from global OWASP events, and the importance of community involvement are among the critical issues discussed.The questions presented by Chris and Robert include:What experience do you have running an organization like OWASP? Have you been a C-level exec? Have you served on a Board of Directors? What hard decisions about the strategic direction of an organization have you personally made?What are your priorities as a board member, and what should not be on the board's agenda?How do you envision maintaining the legacy of OWASP's open-source projects in the future, especially compared to organizations like the Linux Foundation, which has successfully nurtured community engagement and secured funding for project sustainability?The individual paid memberships are in a steady decline year over year. What is your plan to increase the number of paid members of OWASP?How do you plan on remaining vendor agnostic and maintaining the open-source character of the org without becoming an incubator for companies?With the individual events happening around the globe under the OWASP brand, what should happen with the profit from those events? Should it become part of the Global OWASP bank account?For those interested in the future of OWASP and the perspectives of its potential leaders, this debate offers valuable insights. We want to invite all application security professionals to tune in and listen to the complete discussion to gain a deeper understanding of the candidates' visions and strategies for the advancement of OWASP in the coming years.Chris concludes with this message: "I can't stress enough the importance of your active participation in the upcoming board elections. These elections play a pivotal role, and you, as a valued member of the OWASP community, have the power to shape our organization's future. I want to remind you that there's a dedicated candidate page for each contender, complete with videos where they lay out their platforms and provide written answers to various questions. You must be informed. As an OWASP member, I urge you to exercise your right to vote. The voting period for the board of directors will open on October 15 and run until October 30. I genuinely believe that voting isn't just a right—it's a responsibility. Your vote will help determine the next generation of leaders who will steer OWASP in the coming years."Links:OWASP Global Board Candidates webpage:  https://owasp.org/www-board-candidates/FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA: ➜Twitter: @AppSecPodcast➜LinkedIn: The Application Security Podcast➜YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ApplicationSecurityPodcast Thanks for Listening! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~