Podcast appearances and mentions of daniel pink

In this insightful episode, Nate Edgerly, CEO of Enzo Group Inc., discusses his journey from CPA at PricewaterhouseCoopers to a seasoned private equity investor and executive leader in the hospitality industry. Nate shares valuable insights on leadership, long-term investing, and what makes hospitality businesses thrive or fail.Key Takeaways:Nate's journey from CPA to CEO, highlighting his pivotal experiences in private equity and operating roles.Lessons learned from running a business, enhancing empathy, and effectively partnering with leadership teams.What separates exceptional CEOs: empathy, people-focus, and creating a supportive culture.Common private equity mistakes: prioritizing short-term gains over long-term strategic growth and cultural investment.The decision behind Enzo Group's unique approach to raising capital—democratizing access beyond institutional investors.Notable Mentions:Book Recommendations:Unreasonable Hospitality by Will GuidaraWarren Buffett's investor lettersLeadership insights by Simon Sinek, Daniel Pink, John MaxwellMastery by Robert GreeneBrands Admired:Ladybird Taco, Original Chop Shop, Cava, McDonald's, Chipotle, Golden CorralTimestamps:00:00 – Introduction to Nate Edgley02:30 – Nate's early career and transition to private equity06:10 – What Nate learned from operating roles10:00 – Qualities of exceptional CEOs13:15 – Mistakes private equity firms make and Nate's long-term investment philosophy17:20 – Enzo Group's unique capital-raising strategy21:45 – Why choose the volatile hospitality industry?27:30 – Critical success factors for restaurant businesses32:00 – Brands admired by Nate and reasons behind their success38:00 – Nate's insights on executive search firms42:00 – Influences, recommended readings, and learning resources45:20 – How to connect with Nate EdgleyRaw Selection partners with Private Equity firms and their portfolio companies to secure exceptional executive talent. We focus on de-risking executive recruitment through meticulous search and selection processes, ensuring top-tier performance and long-term success.

“To navigate proof, we must reach into a thicket of errors and biases. We must confront monsters and embrace uncertainty, balancing — and rebalancing —our beliefs. We must seek out every useful fragment of data, gather every relevant tool, searching wider and climbing further. Finding the good foundations among the bad. Dodging dogma and falsehoods. Questioning. Measuring. Triangulating. Convincing. Then perhaps, just perhaps, we'll reach the truth in time.”—Adam KucharskiMy conversation with Professor Kucharski on what constitutes certainty and proof in science (and other domains), with emphasis on many of the learnings from Covid. Given the politicization of science and A.I.'s deepfakes and power for blurring of truth, it's hard to think of a topic more important right now.Audio file (Ground Truths can also be downloaded on Apple Podcasts and Spotify)Eric Topol (00:06):Hello, it's Eric Topol from Ground Truths and I am really delighted to welcome Adam Kucharski, who is the author of a new book, Proof: The Art and Science of Certainty. He's a distinguished mathematician, by the way, the first mathematician we've had on Ground Truths and a person who I had the real privilege of getting to know a bit through the Covid pandemic. So welcome, Adam.Adam Kucharski (00:28):Thanks for having me.Eric Topol (00:30):Yeah, I mean, I think just to let everybody know, you're a Professor at London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and also noteworthy you won the Adams Prize, which is one of the most impressive recognitions in the field of mathematics. This is the book, it's a winner, Proof and there's so much to talk about. So Adam, maybe what I'd start off is the quote in the book that captivates in the beginning, “life is full of situations that can reveal remarkably large gaps in our understanding of what is true and why it's true. This is a book about those gaps.” So what was the motivation when you undertook this very big endeavor?Adam Kucharski (01:17):I think a lot of it comes to the work I do at my day job where we have to deal with a lot of evidence under pressure, particularly if you work in outbreaks or emerging health concerns. And often it really pushes the limits, our methodology and how we converge on what's true subject to potential revision in the future. I think particularly having a background in math's, I think you kind of grow up with this idea that you can get to these concrete, almost immovable truths and then even just looking through the history, realizing that often isn't the case, that there's these kind of very human dynamics that play out around them. And it's something I think that everyone in science can reflect on that sometimes what convinces us doesn't convince other people, and particularly when you have that kind of urgency of time pressure, working out how to navigate that.Eric Topol (02:05):Yeah. Well, I mean I think these times of course have really gotten us to appreciate, particularly during Covid, the importance of understanding uncertainty. And I think one of the ways that we can dispel what people assume they know is the famous Monty Hall, which you get into a bit in the book. So I think everybody here is familiar with that show, Let's Make a Deal and maybe you can just take us through what happens with one of the doors are unveiled and how that changes the mathematics.Adam Kucharski (02:50):Yeah, sure. So I think it is a problem that's been around for a while and it's based on this game show. So you've got three doors that are closed. Behind two of the doors there is a goat and behind one of the doors is a luxury car. So obviously, you want to win the car. The host asks you to pick a door, so you point to one, maybe door number two, then the host who knows what's behind the doors opens another door to reveal a goat and then ask you, do you want to change your mind? Do you want to switch doors? And a lot of the, I think intuition people have, and certainly when I first came across this problem many years ago is well, you've got two doors left, right? You've picked one, there's another one, it's 50-50. And even some quite well-respected mathematicians.Adam Kucharski (03:27):People like Paul Erdős who was really published more papers than almost anyone else, that was their initial gut reaction. But if you work through all of the combinations, if you pick this door and then the host does this, and you switch or not switch and work through all of those options. You actually double your chances if you switch versus sticking with the door. So something that's counterintuitive, but I think one of the things that really struck me and even over the years trying to explain it is convincing myself of the answer, which was when I first came across it as a teenager, I did quite quickly is very different to convincing someone else. And even actually Paul Erdős, one of his colleagues showed him what I call proof by exhaustion. So go through every combination and that didn't really convince him. So then he started to simulate and said, well, let's do a computer simulation of the game a hundred thousand times. And again, switching was this optimal strategy, but Erdős wasn't really convinced because I accept that this is the case, but I'm not really satisfied with it. And I think that encapsulates for a lot of people, their experience of proof and evidence. It's a fact and you have to take it as given, but there's actually quite a big bridge often to really understanding why it's true and feeling convinced by it.Eric Topol (04:41):Yeah, I think it's a fabulous example because I think everyone would naturally assume it's 50-50 and it isn't. And I think that gets us to the topic at hand. What I love, there's many things I love about this book. One is that you don't just get into science and medicine, but you cut across all the domains, law, mathematics, AI. So it's a very comprehensive sweep of everything about proof and truth, and it couldn't come at a better time as we'll get into. Maybe just starting off with math, the term I love mathematical monsters. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?Adam Kucharski (05:25):Yeah, this was a fascinating situation that emerged in the late 19th century where a lot of math's, certainly in Europe had been derived from geometry because a lot of the ancient Greek influence on how we shaped things and then Newton and his work on rates of change and calculus, it was really the natural world that provided a lot of inspiration, these kind of tangible objects, tangible movements. And as mathematicians started to build out the theory around rates of change and how we tackle these kinds of situations, they sometimes took that intuition a bit too seriously. And there was some theorems that they said were intuitively obvious, some of these French mathematicians. And so, one for example is this idea of you how things change smoothly over time and how you do those calculations. But what happened was some mathematicians came along and showed that when you have things that can be infinitely small, that intuition didn't necessarily hold in the same way.Adam Kucharski (06:26):And they came up with these examples that broke a lot of these theorems and a lot of the establishments at the time called these things monsters. They called them these aberrations against common sense and this idea that if Newton had known about them, he never would've done all of his discovery because they're just nuisances and we just need to get rid of them. And there's this real tension at the core of mathematics in the late 1800s where some people just wanted to disregard this and say, look, it works for most of the time, that's good enough. And then others really weren't happy with this quite vague logic. They wanted to put it on much sturdier ground. And what was remarkable actually is if you trace this then into the 20th century, a lot of these monsters and these particularly in some cases functions which could almost move constantly, this constant motion rather than our intuitive concept of movement as something that's smooth, if you drop an apple, it accelerates at a very smooth rate, would become foundational in our understanding of things like probability, Einstein's work on atomic theory. A lot of these concepts where geometry breaks down would be really important in relativity. So actually, these things that we thought were monsters actually were all around us all the time, and science couldn't advance without them. So I think it's just this remarkable example of this tension within a field that supposedly concrete and the things that were going to be shunned actually turn out to be quite important.Eric Topol (07:53):It's great how you convey how nature isn't so neat and tidy and things like Brownian motion, understanding that, I mean, just so many things that I think fit into that general category. In the legal, we won't get into too much because that's not so much the audience of Ground Truths, but the classic things about innocent and until proven guilty and proof beyond reasonable doubt, I mean these are obviously really important parts of that overall sense of proof and truth. We're going to get into one thing I'm fascinated about related to that subsequently and then in science. So before we get into the different types of proof, obviously the pandemic is still fresh in our minds and we're an endemic with Covid now, and there are so many things we got wrong along the way of uncertainty and didn't convey that science isn't always evolving search for what is the truth. There's plenty no shortage of uncertainty at any moment. So can you recap some of the, you did so much work during the pandemic and obviously some of it's in the book. What were some of the major things that you took out of proof and truth from the pandemic?Adam Kucharski (09:14):I think it was almost this story of two hearts because on the one hand, science was the thing that got us where we are today. The reason that so much normality could resume and so much risk was reduced was development of vaccines and the understanding of treatments and the understanding of variants as they came to their characteristics. So it was kind of this amazing opportunity to see this happen faster than it ever happened in history. And I think ever in science, it certainly shifted a lot of my thinking about what's possible and even how we should think about these kinds of problems. But also on the other hand, I think where people might have been more familiar with seeing science progress a bit more slowly and reach consensus around some of these health issues, having that emerge very rapidly can present challenges even we found with some of the work we did on Alpha and then the Delta variants, and it was the early quantification of these.Adam Kucharski (10:08):So really the big question is, is this thing more transmissible? Because at the time countries were thinking about control measures, thinking about relaxing things, and you've got this just enormous social economic health decision-making based around essentially is it a lot more spreadable or is it not? And you only had these fragments of evidence. So I think for me, that was really an illustration of the sharp end. And I think what we ended up doing with some of those was rather than arguing over a precise number, something like Delta, instead we kind of looked at, well, what's the range that matters? So in the sense of arguing over whether it's 40% or 50% or 30% more transmissible is perhaps less important than being, it's substantially more transmissible and it's going to start going up. Is it going to go up extremely fast or just very fast?Adam Kucharski (10:59):That's still a very useful conclusion. I think what often created some of the more challenges, I think the things that on reflection people looking back pick up on are where there was probably overstated certainty. We saw that around some of the airborne spread, for example, stated as a fact by in some cases some organizations, I think in some situations as well, governments had a constraint and presented it as scientific. So the UK, for example, would say testing isn't useful. And what was happening at the time was there wasn't enough tests. So it was more a case of they can't test at that volume. But I think blowing between what the science was saying and what the decision-making, and I think also one thing we found in the UK was we made a lot of the epidemiological evidence available. I think that was really, I think something that was important.Adam Kucharski (11:51):I found it a lot easier to communicate if talking to the media to be able to say, look, this is the paper that's out, this is what it means, this is the evidence. I always found it quite uncomfortable having to communicate things where you knew there were reports behind the scenes, but you couldn't actually articulate. But I think what that did is it created this impression that particularly epidemiology was driving the decision-making a lot more than it perhaps was in reality because so much of that was being made public and a lot more of the evidence around education or economics was being done behind the scenes. I think that created this kind of asymmetry in public perception about how that was feeding in. And so, I think there was always that, and it happens, it is really hard as well as a scientist when you've got journalists asking you how to run the country to work out those steps of am I describing the evidence behind what we're seeing? Am I describing the evidence about different interventions or am I proposing to some extent my value system on what we do? And I think all of that in very intense times can be very easy to get blurred together in public communication. I think we saw a few examples of that where things were being the follow the science on policy type angle where actually once you get into what you're prioritizing within a society, quite rightly, you've got other things beyond just the epidemiology driving that.Eric Topol (13:09):Yeah, I mean that term that you just use follow the science is such an important term because it tells us about the dynamic aspect. It isn't just a snapshot, it's constantly being revised. But during the pandemic we had things like the six-foot rule that was never supported by data, but yet still today, if I walk around my hospital and there's still the footprints of the six-foot rule and not paying attention to the fact that this was airborne and took years before some of these things were accepted. The flatten the curve stuff with lockdowns, which I never was supportive of that, but perhaps at the worst point, the idea that hospitals would get overrun was an issue, but it got carried away with school shutdowns for prolonged periods and in some parts of the world, especially very stringent lockdowns. But anyway, we learned a lot.Eric Topol (14:10):But perhaps one of the greatest lessons is that people's expectations about science is that it's absolute and somehow you have this truth that's not there. I mean, it's getting revised. It's kind of on the job training, it's on this case on the pandemic revision. But very interesting. And that gets us to, I think the next topic, which I think is a fundamental part of the book distributed throughout the book, which is the different types of proof in biomedicine and of course across all these domains. And so, you take us through things like randomized trials, p-values, 95 percent confidence intervals, counterfactuals, causation and correlation, peer review, the works, which is great because a lot of people have misconceptions of these things. So for example, randomized trials, which is the temple of the randomized trials, they're not as great as a lot of people think, yes, they can help us establish cause and effect, but they're skewed because of the people who come into the trial. So they may not at all be a representative sample. What are your thoughts about over deference to randomized trials?Adam Kucharski (15:31):Yeah, I think that the story of how we rank evidence in medicines a fascinating one. I mean even just how long it took for people to think about these elements of randomization. Fundamentally, what we're trying to do when we have evidence here in medicine or science is prevent ourselves from confusing randomness for a signal. I mean, that's fundamentally, we don't want to mistake something, we think it's going on and it's not. And the challenge, particularly with any intervention is you only get to see one version of reality. You can't give someone a drug, follow them, rewind history, not give them the drug and then follow them again. So one of the things that essentially randomization allows us to do is, if you have two groups, one that's been randomized, one that hasn't on average, the difference in outcomes between those groups is going to be down to the treatment effect.Adam Kucharski (16:20):So it doesn't necessarily mean in reality that'd be the case, but on average that's the expectation that you'd have. And it's kind of interesting actually that the first modern randomized control trial (RCT) in medicine in 1947, this is for TB and streptomycin. The randomization element actually, it wasn't so much statistical as behavioral, that if you have people coming to hospital, you could to some extent just say, we'll just alternate. We're not going to randomize. We're just going to first patient we'll say is a control, second patient a treatment. But what they found in a lot of previous studies was doctors have bias. Maybe that patient looks a little bit ill or that one maybe is on borderline for eligibility. And often you got these quite striking imbalances when you allowed it for human judgment. So it was really about shielding against those behavioral elements. But I think there's a few situations, it's a really powerful tool for a lot of these questions, but as you mentioned, one is this issue of you have the population you study on and then perhaps in reality how that translates elsewhere.Adam Kucharski (17:17):And we see, I mean things like flu vaccines are a good example, which are very dependent on immunity and evolution and what goes on in different populations. Sometimes you've had a result on a vaccine in one place and then the effectiveness doesn't translate in the same way to somewhere else. I think the other really important thing to bear in mind is, as I said, it's the averaging that you're getting an average effect between two different groups. And I think we see certainly a lot of development around things like personalized medicine where actually you're much more interested in the outcome for the individual. And so, what a trial can give you evidence is on average across a group, this is the effect that I can expect this intervention to have. But we've now seen more of the emergence things like N=1 studies where you can actually over the same individual, particularly for chronic conditions, look at those kind of interventions.Adam Kucharski (18:05):And also there's just these extreme examples where you're ethically not going to run a trial, there's never been a trial of whether it's a good idea to have intensive care units in hospitals or there's a lot of these kind of historical treatments which are just so overwhelmingly effective that we're not going to run trial. So almost this hierarchy over time, you can see it getting shifted because actually you do have these situations where other forms of evidence can get you either closer to what you need or just more feasibly an answer where it's just not ethical or practical to do an RCT.Eric Topol (18:37):And that brings us to the natural experiments I just wrote about recently, the one with shingles, which there's two big natural experiments to suggest that shingles vaccine might reduce the risk of Alzheimer's, an added benefit beyond the shingles that was not anticipated. Your thoughts about natural experiments, because here you're getting a much different type of population assessment, again, not at the individual level, but not necessarily restricted by some potentially skewed enrollment criteria.Adam Kucharski (19:14):I think this is as emerged as a really valuable tool. It's kind of interesting, in the book you're talking to economists like Josh Angrist, that a lot of these ideas emerge in epidemiology, but I think were really then taken up by economists, particularly as they wanted to add more credibility to a lot of these policy questions. And ultimately, it comes down to this issue that for a lot of problems, we can't necessarily intervene and randomize, but there might be a situation that's done it to some extent for us, so the classic example is the Vietnam draft where it was kind of random birthdays with drawn out of lottery. And so, there's been a lot of studies subsequently about the effect of serving in the military on different subsequent lifetime outcomes because broadly those people have been randomized. It was for a different reason. But you've got that element of randomization driving that.Adam Kucharski (20:02):And so again, with some of the recent shingles data and other studies, you might have a situation for example, where there's been an intervention that's somewhat arbitrary in terms of time. It's a cutoff on a birth date, for example. And under certain assumptions you could think, well, actually there's no real reason for the person on this day and this day to be fundamentally different. I mean, perhaps there might be effects of cohorts if it's school years or this sort of thing. But generally, this isn't the same as having people who are very, very different ages and very different characteristics. It's just nature, or in this case, just a policy intervention for a different reason has given you that randomization, which allows you or pseudo randomization, which allows you to then look at something about the effect of an intervention that you wouldn't as reliably if you were just digging into the data of yes, no who's received a vaccine.Eric Topol (20:52):Yeah, no, I think it's really valuable. And now I think increasingly given priority, if you can find these natural experiments and they're not always so abundant to use to extrapolate from, but when they are, they're phenomenal. The causation correlation is so big. The issue there, I mean Judea Pearl's, the Book of Why, and you give so many great examples throughout the book in Proof. I wonder if you could comment that on that a bit more because this is where associations are confused somehow or other with a direct effect. And we unfortunately make these jumps all too frequently. Perhaps it's the most common problem that's occurring in the way we interpret medical research data.Adam Kucharski (21:52):Yeah, I think it's an issue that I think a lot of people get drilled into in their training just because a correlation between things doesn't mean that that thing causes this thing. But it really struck me as I talked to people, researching the book, in practice in research, there's actually a bit more to it in how it's played out. So first of all, if there's a correlation between things, it doesn't tell you much generally that's useful for intervention. If two things are correlated, it doesn't mean that changing that thing's going to have an effect on that thing. There might be something that's influencing both of them. If you have more ice cream sales, it will lead to more heat stroke cases. It doesn't mean that changing ice cream sales is going to have that effect, but it does allow you to make predictions potentially because if you can identify consistent patterns, you can say, okay, if this thing going up, I'm going to make a prediction that this thing's going up.Adam Kucharski (22:37):So one thing I found quite striking, actually talking to research in different fields is how many fields choose to focus on prediction because it kind of avoids having to deal with this cause and effect problem. And even in fields like psychology, it was kind of interesting that there's a lot of focus on predicting things like relationship outcomes, but actually for people, you don't want a prediction about your relationship. You want to know, well, how can I do something about it? You don't just want someone to sell you your relationship's going to go downhill. So there's almost part of the challenge is people just got stuck on prediction because it's an easier field of work, whereas actually some of those problems will involve intervention. I think the other thing that really stood out for me is in epidemiology and a lot of other fields, rightly, people are very cautious to not get that mixed up.Adam Kucharski (23:24):They don't want to mix up correlations or associations with causation, but you've kind of got this weird situation where a lot of papers go out of their way to not use causal language and say it's an association, it's just an association. It's just an association. You can't say anything about causality. And then the end of the paper, they'll say, well, we should think about introducing more of this thing or restricting this thing. So really the whole paper and its purpose is framed around a causal intervention, but it's extremely careful throughout the paper to not frame it as a causal claim. So I think we almost by skirting that too much, we actually avoid the problems that people sometimes care about. And I think a lot of the nice work that's been going on in causal inference is trying to get people to confront this more head on rather than say, okay, you can just stay in this prediction world and that's fine. And then just later maybe make a policy suggestion off the back of it.Eric Topol (24:20):Yeah, I think this is cause and effect is a very alluring concept to support proof as you so nicely go through in the book. But of course, one of the things that we use to help us is the biological mechanism. So here you have, let's say for example, you're trying to get a new drug approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), and the request is, well, we want two trials, randomized trials, independent. We want to have p-values that are significant, and we want to know the biological mechanism ideally with the dose response of the drug. But there are many drugs as you review that have no biological mechanism established. And even when the tobacco problems were mounting, the actual mechanism of how tobacco use caused cancer wasn't known. So how important is the biological mechanism, especially now that we're well into the AI world where explainability is demanded. And so, we don't know the mechanism, but we also don't know the mechanism and lots of things in medicine too, like anesthetics and even things as simple as aspirin, how it works and many others. So how do we deal with this quest for the biological mechanism?Adam Kucharski (25:42):I think that's a really good point. It shows almost a lot of the transition I think we're going through currently. I think particularly for things like smoking cancer where it's very hard to run a trial. You can't make people randomly take up smoking. Having those additional pieces of evidence, whether it's an analogy with a similar carcinogen, whether it's a biological mechanism, can help almost give you more supports for that argument that there's a cause and effect going on. But I think what I found quite striking, and I realized actually that it's something that had kind of bothered me a bit and I'd be interested to hear whether it bothers you, but with the emergence of AI, it's almost a bit of the loss of scientific satisfaction. I think you grow up with learning about how the world works and why this is doing what it's doing.Adam Kucharski (26:26):And I talked for example of some of the people involved with AlphaFold and some of the subsequent work in installing those predictions about structures. And they'd almost made peace with it, which I found interesting because I think they started off being a bit uncomfortable with like, yeah, you've got these remarkable AI models making these predictions, but we don't understand still biologically what's happening here. But I think they're just settled in saying, well, biology is really complex on some of these problems, and if we can have a tool that can give us this extremely valuable information, maybe that's okay. And it was just interesting that they'd really kind of gone through that kind process, which I think a lot of people are still grappling with and that almost that discomfort of using AI and what's going to convince you that that's a useful reliable prediction whether it's something like predicting protein folding or getting in a self-driving car. What's the evidence you need to convince you that's reliable?Eric Topol (27:26):Yeah, no, I'm so glad you brought that up because when Demis Hassabis and John Jumper won the Nobel Prize, the point I made was maybe there should be an asterisk with AI because they don't know how it works. I mean, they had all the rich data from the protein data bank, and they got the transformer model to do it for 200 million protein structure prediction, but they still to this day don't fully understand how the model really was working. So it reinforces what you're just saying. And of course, it cuts across so many types of AI. It's just that we tend to hold different standards in medicine not realizing that there's lots of lack of explainability for routine medical treatments today. Now one of the things that I found fascinating in your book, because there's different levels of proof, different types of proof, but solid logical systems.Eric Topol (28:26):And on page 60 of the book, especially pertinent to the US right now, there is a bit about Kurt Gödel and what he did there was he basically, there was a question about dictatorship in the US could it ever occur? And Gödel says, “oh, yes, I can prove it.” And he's using the constitution itself to prove it, which I found fascinating because of course we're seeing that emerge right now. Can you give us a little bit more about this, because this is fascinating about the Fifth Amendment, and I mean I never thought that the Constitution would allow for a dictatorship to emerge.Adam Kucharski (29:23):And this was a fascinating story, Kurt Gödel who is one of the greatest logical minds of the 20th century and did a lot of work, particularly in the early 20th century around system of rules, particularly things like mathematics and whether they can ever be really fully satisfying. So particularly in mathematics, he showed that there were this problem that is very hard to have a set of rules for something like arithmetic that was both complete and covered every situation, but also had no contradictions. And I think a lot of countries, if you go back, things like Napoleonic code and these attempts to almost write down every possible legal situation that could be imaginable, always just ascended into either they needed amendments or they had contradictions. I think Gödel's work really summed it up, and there's a story, this is in the late forties when he had his citizenship interview and Einstein and Oskar Morgenstern went along as witnesses for him.Adam Kucharski (30:17):And it's always told as kind of a lighthearted story as this logical mind, this academic just saying something silly in front of the judge. And actually, to my own admission, I've in the past given talks and mentioned it in this slightly kind of lighthearted way, but for the book I got talking to a few people who'd taken it more seriously. I realized actually he's this extremely logically focused mind at the time, and maybe there should have been something more to it. And people who have kind of dug more into possibilities was saying, well, what could he have spotted that bothered him? And a lot of his work that he did about consistency in mass was around particularly self-referential statements. So if I say this sentence is false, it's self-referential and if it is false, then it's true, but if it's true, then it's false and you get this kind of weird self-referential contradictions.Adam Kucharski (31:13):And so, one of the theories about Gödel was that in the Constitution, it wasn't that there was a kind of rule for someone can become a dictator, but rather people can use the mechanisms within the Constitution to make it easier to make further amendments. And he kind of downward cycle of amendment that he had seen happening in Europe and the run up to the war, and again, because this is never fully documented exactly what he thought, but it's one of the theories that it wouldn't just be outright that it would just be this cycle process of weakening and weakening and weakening and making it easier to add. And actually, when I wrote that, it was all the earlier bits of the book that I drafted, I did sort of debate whether including it I thought, is this actually just a bit in the weeds of American history? And here we are. Yeah, it's remarkable.Eric Topol (32:00):Yeah, yeah. No, I mean I found, it struck me when I was reading this because here back in 1947, there was somebody predicting that this could happen based on some, if you want to call it loopholes if you will, or the ability to change things, even though you would've thought otherwise that there wasn't any possible capability for that to happen. Now, one of the things I thought was a bit contradictory is two parts here. One is from Angus Deaton, he wrote, “Gold standard thinking is magical thinking.” And then the other is what you basically are concluding in many respects. “To navigate proof, we must reach into a thicket of errors and biases. We must confront monsters and embrace uncertainty, balancing — and rebalancing —our beliefs. We must seek out every useful fragment of data, gather every relevant tool, searching wider and climbing further. Finding the good foundations among the bad. Dodging dogma and falsehoods. Questioning. Measuring. Triangulating. Convincing. Then perhaps, just perhaps, we'll reach the truth in time.” So here you have on the one hand your search for the truth, proof, which I think that little paragraph says it all. In many respects, it sums up somewhat to the work that you review here and on the other you have this Nobel laureate saying, you don't have to go to extremes here. The enemy of good is perfect, perhaps. I mean, how do you reconcile this sense that you shouldn't go so far? Don't search for absolute perfection of proof.Adam Kucharski (33:58):Yeah, I think that encapsulates a lot of what the book is about, is that search for certainty and how far do you have to go. I think one of the things, there's a lot of interesting discussion, some fascinating papers around at what point do you use these studies? What are their flaws? But I think one of the things that does stand out is across fields, across science, medicine, even if you going to cover law, AI, having these kind of cookie cutter, this is the definitive way of doing it. And if you just follow this simple rule, if you do your p-value, you'll get there and you'll be fine. And I think that's where a lot of the danger is. And I think that's what we've seen over time. Certain science people chasing certain targets and all the behaviors that come around that or in certain situations disregarding valuable evidence because you've got this kind of gold standard and nothing else will do.Adam Kucharski (34:56):And I think particularly in a crisis, it's very dangerous to have that because you might have a low level of evidence that demands a certain action and you almost bias yourself towards inaction if you have these kind of very simple thresholds. So I think for me, across all of these stories and across the whole book, I mean William Gosset who did a lot of pioneering work on statistical experiments at Guinness in the early 20th century, he had this nice question he sort of framed is, how much do we lose? And if we're thinking about the problems, there's always more studies we can do, there's always more confidence we can have, but whether it's a patient we want to treat or crisis we need to deal with, we need to work out actually getting that level of proof that's really appropriate for where we are currently.Eric Topol (35:49):I think exceptionally important that there's this kind of spectrum or continuum in following science and search for truth and that distinction, I think really nails it. Now, one of the things that's unique in the book is you don't just go through all the different types of how you would get to proof, but you also talk about how the evidence is acted on. And for example, you quote, “they spent a lot of time misinforming themselves.” This is the whole idea of taking data and torturing it or using it, dredging it however way you want to support either conspiracy theories or alternative facts. Basically, manipulating sometimes even emasculating what evidence and data we have. And one of the sentences, or I guess this is from Sir Francis Bacon, “truth is a daughter of time”, but the added part is not authority. So here we have our president here that repeats things that are wrong, fabricated or wrong, and he keeps repeating to the point that people believe it's true. But on the other hand, you could say truth is a daughter of time because you like to not accept any truth immediately. You like to see it get replicated and further supported, backed up. So in that one sentence, truth is a daughter of time not authority, there's the whole ball of wax here. Can you take us through that? Because I just think that people don't understand that truth being tested over time, but also manipulated by its repetition. This is a part of the big problem that we live in right now.Adam Kucharski (37:51):And I think it's something that writing the book and actually just reflecting on it subsequently has made me think about a lot in just how people approach these kinds of problems. I think that there's an idea that conspiracy theorists are just lazy and have maybe just fallen for a random thing, but talking to people, you really think about these things a lot more in the field. And actually, the more I've ended up engaging with people who believe things that are just outright unevidenced around vaccines, around health issues, they often have this mountain of papers and data to hand and a lot of it, often they will be peer reviewed papers. It won't necessarily be supporting the point that they think it's supports.Adam Kucharski (38:35):But it's not something that you can just say everything you're saying is false, that there's actually often a lot of things that have been put together and it's just that leap to that conclusion. I think you also see a lot of scientific language borrowed. So I gave a talker early this year and it got posted on YouTube. It had conspiracy theories it, and there was a lot of conspiracy theory supporters who piled in the comments and one of the points they made is skepticism is good. It's the kind of law society, take no one's word for it, you need this. We are the ones that are kind of doing science and people who just assume that science is settled are in the wrong. And again, you also mentioned that repetition. There's this phenomenon, it's the illusory truth problem that if you repeatedly tell someone someone's something's false, it'll increase their belief in it even if it's something quite outrageous.Adam Kucharski (39:27):And that mimics that scientific repetition because people kind of say, okay, well if I've heard it again and again, it's almost like if you tweak these as mini experiments, I'm just accumulating evidence that this thing is true. So it made me think a lot about how you've got essentially a lot of mimicry of the scientific method, amount of data and how you present it and this kind of skepticism being good, but I think a lot of it comes down to as well as just looking at theological flaws, but also ability to be wrong in not actually seeking out things that confirm. I think all of us, it's something that I've certainly tried to do a lot working on emergencies, and one of the scientific advisory groups that I worked on almost it became a catchphrase whenever someone presented something, they finished by saying, tell me why I'm wrong.Adam Kucharski (40:14):And if you've got a variant that's more transmissible, I don't want to be right about that really. And it is something that is quite hard to do and I found it is particularly for something that's quite high pressure, trying to get a policymaker or someone to write even just non-publicly by themselves, write down what you think's going to happen or write down what would convince you that you are wrong about something. I think particularly on contentious issues where someone's got perhaps a lot of public persona wrapped up in something that's really hard to do, but I think it's those kind of elements that distinguish between getting sucked into a conspiracy theory and really seeking out evidence that supports it and trying to just get your theory stronger and stronger and actually seeking out things that might overturn your belief about the world. And it's often those things that we don't want overturned. I think those are the views that we all have politically or in other ways, and that's often where the problems lie.Eric Topol (41:11):Yeah, I think this is perhaps one of, if not the most essential part here is that to try to deal with the different views. We have biases as you emphasized throughout, but if you can use these different types of proof to have a sound discussion, conversation, refutation whereby you don't summarily dismiss another view which may be skewed and maybe spurious or just absolutely wrong, maybe fabricated whatever, but did you can engage and say, here's why these are my proof points, or this is why there's some extent of certainty you can have regarding this view of the data. I think this is so fundamental because unfortunately as we saw during the pandemic, the strident minority, which were the anti-science, anti-vaxxers, they were summarily dismissed as being kooks and adopting conspiracy theories without the right engagement and the right debates. And I think this might've helped along the way, no less the fact that a lot of scientists didn't really want to engage in the first place and adopt this methodical proof that you've advocated in the book so many different ways to support a hypothesis or an assertion. Now, we've covered a lot here, Adam. Have I missed some central parts of the book and the effort because it's really quite extraordinary. I know it's your third book, but it's certainly a standout and it certainly it's a standout not just for your books, but books on this topic.Adam Kucharski (43:13):Thanks. And it's much appreciated. It was not an easy book to write. I think at times, I kind of wondered if I should have taken on the topic and I think a core thing, your last point speaks to that. I think a core thing is that gap often between what convinces us and what convinces someone else. I think it's often very tempting as a scientist to say the evidence is clear or the science has proved this. But even on something like the vaccines, you do get the loud minority who perhaps think they're putting microchips in people and outlandish views, but you actually get a lot more people who might just have some skepticism of pharmaceutical companies or they might have, my wife was pregnant actually at the time during Covid and we waited up because there wasn't much data on pregnancy and the vaccine. And I think it's just finding what is convincing. Is it having more studies from other countries? Is it understanding more about the biology? Is it understanding how you evaluate some of those safety signals? And I think that's just really important to not just think what convinces us and it's going to be obvious to other people, but actually think where are they coming from? Because ultimately having proof isn't that good unless it leads to the action that can make lives better.Eric Topol (44:24):Yeah. Well, look, you've inculcated my mind with this book, Adam, called Proof. Anytime I think of the word proof, I'm going to be thinking about you. So thank you. Thanks for taking the time to have a conversation about your book, your work, and I know we're going to count on you for the astute mathematics and analysis of outbreaks in the future, which we will see unfortunately. We are seeing now, in fact already in this country with measles and whatnot. So thank you and we'll continue to follow your great work.**************************************Thanks for listening, watching or reading this Ground Truths podcast/post.If you found this interesting please share it!That makes the work involved in putting these together especially worthwhile.I'm also appreciative for your subscribing to Ground Truths. All content —its newsletters, analyses, and podcasts—is free, open-access. I'm fortunate to get help from my producer Jessica Nguyen and Sinjun Balabanoff for audio/video tech support to pull these podcasts together for Scripps Research.Paid subscriptions are voluntary and all proceeds from them go to support Scripps Research. They do allow for posting comments and questions, which I do my best to respond to. Please don't hesitate to post comments and give me feedback. Many thanks to those who have contributed—they have greatly helped fund our summer internship programs for the past two years.A bit of an update on SUPER AGERSMy book has been selected as a Next Big Idea Club winner for Season 26 by Adam Grant, Malcolm Gladwell, Susan Cain, and Daniel Pink. This club has spotlighted the most groundbreaking nonfiction books for over a decade. As a winning title, my book will be shipped to thousands of thoughtful readers like you, featured alongside a reading guide, a "Book Bite," Next Big Idea Podcast episode as well as a live virtual Q&A with me in the club's vibrant online community. If you're interested in joining the club, here's a promo code SEASON26 for 20% off at the website. SUPER AGERS reached #3 for all books on Amazon this week. This was in part related to the segment on the book on the TODAY SHOW which you can see here. Also at Amazon there is a remarkable sale on the hardcover book for $10.l0 at the moment for up to 4 copies. Not sure how long it will last or what prompted it.The journalist Paul von Zielbauer has a Substack “Aging With Strength” and did an extensive interview with me on the biology of aging and how we can prevent the major age-related diseases. Here's the link. Get full access to Ground Truths at erictopol.substack.com/subscribe

n this episode, Allison breaks down:Why attunement—not persuasion—is the new leadership superpowerHow Daniel Pink's research reshapes the way we influence and leadThe story of Marcus, a brilliant leader who learned to listen before leadingThree practical strategies:The Perspective AuditThe Power CheckThe Mirror MethodHow to apply attunement to build trust, gain buy-in, and lead more effectively

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 3644: Nir Eyal and Stuart Luman explore how the ancient fear of being left out has been supercharged by modern technology, leading to a constant state of distraction and anxiety. By embracing the Joy of Missing Out (JOMO), they show how we can shift from reactive behavior to intentional living. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://www.nirandfar.com/2015/01/fomo.html Quotes to ponder: "FOMO is an ancient fear, lodged deep in our brains, that we might be left out or left behind." "Technology didn't create the problem; it just made it more visible and pervasive." "JOMO comes when you stop looking at what you may be missing and start appreciating what you have." Episode references: Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products: https://www.amazon.com/Hooked-How-Build-Habit-Forming-Products/dp/1591847788 Drive by Daniel Pink: https://www.amazon.com/Drive-Surprising-Truth-About-Motivates/dp/1594484805 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 3644: Nir Eyal and Stuart Luman explore how the ancient fear of being left out has been supercharged by modern technology, leading to a constant state of distraction and anxiety. By embracing the Joy of Missing Out (JOMO), they show how we can shift from reactive behavior to intentional living. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://www.nirandfar.com/2015/01/fomo.html Quotes to ponder: "FOMO is an ancient fear, lodged deep in our brains, that we might be left out or left behind." "Technology didn't create the problem; it just made it more visible and pervasive." "JOMO comes when you stop looking at what you may be missing and start appreciating what you have." Episode references: Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products: https://www.amazon.com/Hooked-How-Build-Habit-Forming-Products/dp/1591847788 Drive by Daniel Pink: https://www.amazon.com/Drive-Surprising-Truth-About-Motivates/dp/1594484805 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 3644: Nir Eyal and Stuart Luman explore how the ancient fear of being left out has been supercharged by modern technology, leading to a constant state of distraction and anxiety. By embracing the Joy of Missing Out (JOMO), they show how we can shift from reactive behavior to intentional living. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://www.nirandfar.com/2015/01/fomo.html Quotes to ponder: "FOMO is an ancient fear, lodged deep in our brains, that we might be left out or left behind." "Technology didn't create the problem; it just made it more visible and pervasive." "JOMO comes when you stop looking at what you may be missing and start appreciating what you have." Episode references: Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products: https://www.amazon.com/Hooked-How-Build-Habit-Forming-Products/dp/1591847788 Drive by Daniel Pink: https://www.amazon.com/Drive-Surprising-Truth-About-Motivates/dp/1594484805 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 3639: Isaac Morehouse urges readers to reject the trap of learning for validation and instead align their learning directly with real-world goals. He explains how shifting focus from tests and credentials to task-based learning accelerates growth, deepens understanding, and builds confidence through authentic achievement. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://isaacmorehouse.com/2016/12/19/rules-of-ascendancy-learn-to-the-task-not-the-test/ Quotes to ponder: "Learn to the task, not the test." "The only learning worth anything is that which gets you closer to your goal." "You'll never be confident in your ability if your ability is always measured by someone else's standards." Episode references: Drive by Daniel Pink: https://www.amazon.com/Drive-Surprising-Truth-About-Motivates/dp/1594484805 The War of Art: https://www.amazon.com/War-Art-Steven-Pressfield/dp/1936891026 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 3639: Isaac Morehouse urges readers to reject the trap of learning for validation and instead align their learning directly with real-world goals. He explains how shifting focus from tests and credentials to task-based learning accelerates growth, deepens understanding, and builds confidence through authentic achievement. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://isaacmorehouse.com/2016/12/19/rules-of-ascendancy-learn-to-the-task-not-the-test/ Quotes to ponder: "Learn to the task, not the test." "The only learning worth anything is that which gets you closer to your goal." "You'll never be confident in your ability if your ability is always measured by someone else's standards." Episode references: Drive by Daniel Pink: https://www.amazon.com/Drive-Surprising-Truth-About-Motivates/dp/1594484805 The War of Art: https://www.amazon.com/War-Art-Steven-Pressfield/dp/1936891026 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 3639: Isaac Morehouse urges readers to reject the trap of learning for validation and instead align their learning directly with real-world goals. He explains how shifting focus from tests and credentials to task-based learning accelerates growth, deepens understanding, and builds confidence through authentic achievement. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://isaacmorehouse.com/2016/12/19/rules-of-ascendancy-learn-to-the-task-not-the-test/ Quotes to ponder: "Learn to the task, not the test." "The only learning worth anything is that which gets you closer to your goal." "You'll never be confident in your ability if your ability is always measured by someone else's standards." Episode references: Drive by Daniel Pink: https://www.amazon.com/Drive-Surprising-Truth-About-Motivates/dp/1594484805 The War of Art: https://www.amazon.com/War-Art-Steven-Pressfield/dp/1936891026 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We think that cynicism protects us from being disappointed by other people. But Stanford psychologist Jamil Zaki says the opposite is true. When we expect the worst in people, we create a self-fulfilling prophecy that brings out exactly what we feared. So in his new book, Hope for Cynics, Jamil sets out to prove that hope isn't naive: it's smart.

Joel Bancroft-Connors: The 90-Day Rule—Building Trust Before Disrupting the Status Quo Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Joel shares his first experience as a CSM at a traditional hard drive manufacturing company, where he learned the art of patient change management. Tasked with bridging the gap between a rigid mothership company and their agile startup division, Joel discovered the power of focusing on principles rather than processes. For six months, he concentrated on creating transparency and shifting focus from status reporting to "getting to done" without ever mentioning Scrum or Agile.  His approach followed what he calls the 90-day rule: "In the first 90 days - do no harm, but then have a plan to do something." By listening first and building trust, Joel helped the team deliver a product in just three months. He emphasizes the importance of making people feel valued and using "future perfect thinking" to envision desired outcomes before introducing change. In this episode we refer to Luke Hohmann's Innovation Games, the website and resource Manager-Tools.com, and Daniel Pink's book Drive. Self-reflection Question: Are you rushing to implement changes, or are you taking time to build trust and understand the current state before introducing new practices? [Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Matt Dixon: The Activator Advantage Matt Dixon is Founding Partner of DCM Insights, a global training and advisory firm, and a leading expert in business development and client experience. His first book The Challenger Sale was a #1 Amazon and Wall Street Journal bestseller, and translated in a dozen languages. His newest book with colleagues Rory Channer, Karen Freeman, and Ted McKenna is The Activator Advantage: What Today's Rainmakers Do Differently*. At lot of us know the traits of the kind of person who's successful at attracting new business. What many of us don't know, is that what's working today is actually different than what we traditionally think. In this conversation, Matt and I a take a detailed look at the professionals who are landing the most new business – and what they're doing that works. Key Points The loyalty that once existed between professionals and their clients has changed substantially in recent years. A type of professional called an activator represents the highest performance in business development. Activators assume their best clients will leave at some point and are consistently working to build a pipeline of opportunities. Many professionals tend to protect client relationships. In contrast, activators actively bring colleagues into these relationships. Activators don't wait for inquiries. They meet opportunities happen by building relationships before paid work begins. Activators go way past birthdays and factual knowledge about others. They discover what's important to their clients as individuals. Activators go way past “as is” content and work hard to thoughtfully connect it to a prospect or client's situation. Resources Mentioned The Activator Advantage: What Today's Rainmakers Do Differently* by Matt Dixon, Rory Channer, Karen Freeman, and Ted McKenna Interview Notes Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required). Related Episodes The Surprising Truth About Influencing Others, with Daniel Pink (episode 84) How to Become the Person You Want to Be, with James Clear (episode 376) The Way to Earn Attention, with Raja Rajamannar (episode 521) Expert Partner Finding it hard to make an impression in a noisy marketplace? Many listeners have reached out to David Hutchens to help their organizations get traction through the power of story. If you're planning an offsite or training to get better, get in touch with us to start the conversation with David or any of our other expert partners. Discover More Activate your free membership for full access to the entire library of interviews since 2011, searchable by topic. To accelerate your learning, uncover more inside Coaching for Leaders Plus.

Today's author promises to help us understand how considering when can help us live richer, more engaged lives. Join Mike & Cory as they attempt to decipher the scientific secrets of perfect timing. Support the Show Mike's Newsletter poll When by Daniel Pink Dead Wake by Erik Larson Daily Rituals by Mason Currey Fear Setting […]

In this episode of Stepping Into Your Leadership, Christine Courtney is joined by coach and facilitator Greg Shamie to break down one of the most powerful—and elusive—skills in leadership: motivation.Together, they unpack what motivation really means in the workplace, how to distinguish between extrinsic and intrinsic drivers, and why the best leaders focus on energy, connection, and purpose. Greg shares powerful frameworks from Daniel Pink's Drive, as well as his own time-tested tips from the field—including how he motivates sports teams, corporate teams, and even his own daughter.You'll learn:The difference between energy and engagement—and why both matterGreg's go-to strategy for reading a team's “motivation meter”How to meet people where they are (without judgment)The three core levers of motivation: Autonomy, Mastery, PurposeHow great managers spark motivation through 1:1s, feedback, and meaningful goalsChristine's story of a workshop gone sideways—and how empathy turned it aroundIf you lead people—or want to—you'll walk away with practical, real-world strategies to keep your team engaged, inspired, and showing up at their best.

In this episode of ClickFunnels Radio, cohosts Ben Harris and Chris Cameron welcome Geoff Ketterer, founder of Rev Boost, a sales recruitment agency specializing in high-ticket sales and sales leadership. The conversation delves into Geoff's journey through the world of sales, touching on his early experiences and the foundational lessons he learned from notable figures like Dan Kennedy and insights from Daniel Pink's book, "To Sell is Human." As they explore the nuances of online marketing and sales training, Geoff shares his expertise in one-on-one sales strategies, providing valuable insights for listeners interested in enhancing their sales skills and understanding the sales landscape. Join us for an engaging discussion filled with practical advice and inspiration for aspiring sales professionals. Linkedin: @geoffketterer https://uk.linkedin.com/in/geoffketterer

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 3589: Kyle Kowalski challenges the traditional approach of cramming more into each day and instead advocates for "better is better" through calendar time blocking. By intentionally scheduling tasks and aligning them with personal priorities and energy levels, time blocking boosts efficiency, reduces mental clutter, and fosters meaningful progress. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://www.sloww.co/time-blocking/ Quotes to ponder: "What gets scheduled gets done." "Time blocking is one of the best ways of turning good intentions into action." "What's important now? After a moment of reflection I realized that until I knew what was important right now, what was important right now was to figure out what was important right now!" Episode references: Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less by Greg McKeown: https://www.amazon.com/Essentialism-Disciplined-Pursuit-Greg-McKeown/dp/0804137382 Chasing Slow: Courage to Journey Off the Beaten Path by Erin Loechner: https://www.amazon.com/Chasing-Slow-Courage-Journey-Beaten/dp/0310345677 When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing by Daniel Pink: https://www.amazon.com/When-Scientific-Secrets-Perfect-Timing/dp/0735210624 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 3589: Kyle Kowalski challenges the traditional approach of cramming more into each day and instead advocates for "better is better" through calendar time blocking. By intentionally scheduling tasks and aligning them with personal priorities and energy levels, time blocking boosts efficiency, reduces mental clutter, and fosters meaningful progress. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://www.sloww.co/time-blocking/ Quotes to ponder: "What gets scheduled gets done." "Time blocking is one of the best ways of turning good intentions into action." "What's important now? After a moment of reflection I realized that until I knew what was important right now, what was important right now was to figure out what was important right now!" Episode references: Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less by Greg McKeown: https://www.amazon.com/Essentialism-Disciplined-Pursuit-Greg-McKeown/dp/0804137382 Chasing Slow: Courage to Journey Off the Beaten Path by Erin Loechner: https://www.amazon.com/Chasing-Slow-Courage-Journey-Beaten/dp/0310345677 When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing by Daniel Pink: https://www.amazon.com/When-Scientific-Secrets-Perfect-Timing/dp/0735210624 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 3589: Kyle Kowalski challenges the traditional approach of cramming more into each day and instead advocates for "better is better" through calendar time blocking. By intentionally scheduling tasks and aligning them with personal priorities and energy levels, time blocking boosts efficiency, reduces mental clutter, and fosters meaningful progress. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://www.sloww.co/time-blocking/ Quotes to ponder: "What gets scheduled gets done." "Time blocking is one of the best ways of turning good intentions into action." "What's important now? After a moment of reflection I realized that until I knew what was important right now, what was important right now was to figure out what was important right now!" Episode references: Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less by Greg McKeown: https://www.amazon.com/Essentialism-Disciplined-Pursuit-Greg-McKeown/dp/0804137382 Chasing Slow: Courage to Journey Off the Beaten Path by Erin Loechner: https://www.amazon.com/Chasing-Slow-Courage-Journey-Beaten/dp/0310345677 When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing by Daniel Pink: https://www.amazon.com/When-Scientific-Secrets-Perfect-Timing/dp/0735210624 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We often think it's the big events that shape our kids, but bestselling author Daniel Pink reminds us it's the ordinary moments that leave the deepest impact. In this episode, he opens up about minimizing time away from home and why being there, even when nothing special is happening, might just be the most important thing of all. Daniel Pink is an award-winning author of five New York Times bestsellers, including his latest, The Power of Regret: How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward. His other books include the New York Times bestsellers When and A Whole New Mind — as well as the #1 New York Times bestsellers Drive and To Sell is Human. Follow Daniel on Instagram and X @DanielPink Sign up for Daniel's newsletter The Pink Report: https://www.danpink.com/ 

Author Daniel Pink argues that grade inflation is ruining education. Michael welcomes him to discuss his Washington Post op-ed "Why not get rid of grades?" Original air date 4 March 2025.

After studying law, Daniel Pink transitioned into politics, serving as the chief speechwriter for Vice President Al Gore. However, he soon felt unfulfilled and realized his true calling wasn't in a structured career with defined rules, but in writing. Despite the uncertainty, he made the leap, leaving politics behind to pursue writing full-time. This decision led to multiple bestselling books, including his latest, The Power of Regret. In this episode, Daniel joins Ilana to discuss how embracing regret, rather than avoiding it, leads to profound growth and how we can turn our past decisions into catalysts for a better future. Daniel Pink is a bestselling author and speaker known for his work on business, work, and human behavior. His books have been translated into 46 languages and have sold millions of copies worldwide. In this episode, Ilana and Daniel will discuss: (00:00) Introduction  (01:51) Growing Up with a Love for Books (06:13) Transitioning from Law School to Politics (09:49) Becoming a Speechwriter for Vice President Al Gore (12:24) Why He Chose a Career in Writing Over Politics (16:07) From Struggling Writer to Bestselling Author (18:06) Uncovering the Key to Human Motivation (21:55) The Science of Timing and the Midpoint Slump (26:43) Embracing Regret as a Catalyst for Growth (30:21) The Four Types of Regret and Their Impact (34:59) Turning Regret Into Action and Growth (40:08) Daniel's Motivation for Writing Books (42:04) The Power of Ignoring What Others Think Daniel Pink is a bestselling author and speaker known for his work on business, work, and human behavior. Before becoming a full-time author, he held several positions in politics and government, including serving as the chief speechwriter for Vice President Al Gore. Daniel has since written seven New York Times bestsellers, including Drive, When, and his latest, The Power of Regret. His books have been translated into 46 languages and have sold millions of copies worldwide. Connect with Daniel: Daniel's Website: danpink.com  Daniel's LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/danielpink  Resources Mentioned: Daniel's Book, The Power of Regret: How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward: https://www.amazon.com/Power-Regret-Looking-Backward-Forward/dp/B098VRLZ2H  Daniel's Book, A Whole New Mind: Why Right-Brainers Will Rule the Future: https://www.amazon.com/Whole-New-Mind-Right-Brainers-Future/dp/1594481717 Daniel's Book, When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing: https://www.amazon.com/When-Scientific-Secrets-Perfect-Timing/dp/B076MBR89W Daniel's Book, Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us: https://www.amazon.com/Drive-Surprising-Truth-About-Motivates/dp/B0032COUMC Leap Academy: Ready to make the LEAP in your career? There is a NEW way for professionals to Advance Their Careers & Make 5-6 figures of EXTRA INCOME in Record Time. Check out our free training today at leapacademy.com/training

On this Live Greatly podcast episode, Kristel Bauer sits down with Paula Davis, author of Lead Well: 5 Mindsets to Engage, Retain, and Inspire Your Team.  Paula left her law practice after experiencing burnout and earned a master's degree in applied positive psychology.  She is now the Founder and CEO of the Stress & Resilience Institute.  Kristel and Paula discuss mindsets to set you and your team up for well-being and success.  Tune in now! Key Takeaways From This Episode: A look into Paula's book Lead Well: 5 Mindsets to Engage, Retain, and Inspire Your Team  A look into what sticky recognition is and why it is important Tips to build resilience in the workplace A look into thank you plus The importance of mattering at work About Paula Davis: Paula Davis JD, MAPP, is the Founder and CEO of the Stress & Resilience Institute. For 15 years, she has been a trusted advisor to leaders in organizations of all sizes helping them to make work better. Paula is a globally recognized expert on the effects of workplace stress, burnout prevention, workplace well-being, and building resilience for individuals and teams. Paula left her law practice after seven years and earned a master's degree in applied positive psychology from the University of Pennsylvania. As part of her post-graduate training, Paula was selected to be part of the University of Pennsylvania faculty teaching and training resilience skills to soldiers as part of the Army's Comprehensive Soldier and Family Fitness program. The Penn team trained resilience skills to more than 40,000 soldiers and their family members. Paula is the author of Beating Burnout at Work: Why Teams Hold the Secret to Well-Being & Resilience, which is about burnout prevention using a teams-based approach. Beating Burnout at Work was nominated for best new book by the Next Big Idea Club, which is curated by Adam Grant, Susan Cain, Malcom Gladwell, and Daniel Pink. Paula has shared her expertise at educational institutions such as Harvard Law School, Wharton School Executive Education, and Princeton. She is a two-time recipient of the distinguished teaching award from the Medical College of Wisconsin. She has been featured in and on The New York Times, O, The Oprah Magazine, The Washington Post and many other media outlets. Paula is also a contributor to Forbes, Fast Company and Psychology Today.  Connect with Paula: Order Lead Well: 5 Mindsets to Engage, Retain, and Inspire Your Team: https://www.pennpress.org/9781613631898/lead-well/  Website: https://stressandresilience.com/burnout-book/  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pauladavislaack/  Instegram: https://www.instagram.com/pauladavisspeaker/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/people/Paula-Davis/61565650520592/  About the Host of the Live Greatly podcast, Kristel Bauer: Kristel Bauer is a corporate wellness and performance expert, keynote speaker and TEDx speaker supporting organizations and individuals on their journeys for more happiness and success. She is the author of Work-Life Tango: Finding Happiness, Harmony, and Peak Performance Wherever You Work (John Murray Business November 19, 2024). With Kristel's healthcare background, she provides data driven actionable strategies to leverage happiness and high-power habits to drive growth mindsets, peak performance, profitability, well-being and a culture of excellence. Kristel's keynotes provide insights to “Live Greatly” while promoting leadership development and team building.   Kristel is the creator and host of her global top self-improvement podcast, Live Greatly. She is a contributing writer for Entrepreneur, and she is an influencer in the business and wellness space having been recognized as a Top 10 Social Media Influencer of 2021 in Forbes. As an Integrative Medicine Fellow & Physician Assistant having practiced clinically in Integrative Psychiatry, Kristel has a unique perspective into attaining a mindset for more happiness and success. Kristel has presented to groups from the American Gas Association, Bank of America, bp, Commercial Metals Company, General Mills, Northwestern University, Santander Bank and many more. Kristel has been featured in Forbes, Forest & Bluff Magazine, Authority Magazine & Podcast Magazine and she has appeared on ABC 7 Chicago, WGN Daytime Chicago, Fox 4's WDAF-TV's Great Day KC, and Ticker News. Kristel lives in the Fort Lauderdale, Florida area and she can be booked for speaking engagements worldwide. To Book Kristel as a speaker for your next event, click here. Website: www.livegreatly.co  Follow Kristel Bauer on: Instagram: @livegreatly_co  LinkedIn: Kristel Bauer Twitter: @livegreatly_co Facebook: @livegreatly.co Youtube: Live Greatly, Kristel Bauer To Watch Kristel Bauer's TEDx talk of Redefining Work/Life Balance in a COVID-19 World click here. Click HERE to check out Kristel's corporate wellness and leadership blog Click HERE to check out Kristel's Travel and Wellness Blog Disclaimer: The contents of this podcast are intended for informational and educational purposes only. Always seek the guidance of your physician for any recommendations specific to you or for any questions regarding your specific health, your sleep patterns changes to diet and exercise, or any medical conditions.  Always consult your physician before starting any supplements or new lifestyle programs. All information, views and statements shared on the Live Greatly podcast are purely the opinions of the authors, and are not medical advice or treatment recommendations.  They have not been evaluated by the food and drug administration.  Opinions of guests are their own and Kristel Bauer & this podcast does not endorse or accept responsibility for statements made by guests.  Neither Kristel Bauer nor this podcast takes responsibility for possible health consequences of a person or persons following the information in this educational content.  Always consult your physician for recommendations specific to you.

Saw a great post from Daniel Pink (@DanielPink) and it came from his Tuesday wisdom:  “The World is changed by your example, not by your opinion.” - Paolo Coehlo.  Yep.. so many people express their opinions on line super easy and certainly not the same way that they would say their thoughts to people face to face.  But, we remember that opinions are like people's backsides… everyone has one!  Our actions stand stronger. What we do in life stands larger than only what we say. I know I need to remember this and do more about it for sure. How about you?  Thanks for listening.  Please take a few moments to subscribe & share this with someone, also leave a 5 Star rating on Apple Podcasts and ITunes or other services where you find this show.  Find me on Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/coachtoexpectsuccess/   on Twitter / “X”:  @coachtosuccess   and on Instagram at:  @coachjohndaly  - My YouTube Channel is at: Coach John Daly.   Email me at: CoachJohnDalyPodcast@gmail.com     You can also head on over to https://www.coachtoexpectsuccess.com/ and get in touch with me there on my homepage along with checking out my Top Book list too.  Other things there on my site are being worked on too.  Please let me know that you are reaching out to me from my podcast.

We're bringing back one of our most popular episodes—and for good reason. This conversation struck a chord with so many of you, and its insights are just as relevant today as when it first aired. Regret is one of the most intense and universal human emotions. It often comes with guilt, remorse, or shame—but it also holds the power to drive growth, transformation, and better decision-making, both in life and in business. In this encore episode of Doing CX Right, Stacy Sherman is joined by Daniel H. Pink, renowned author of five New York Times bestsellers. Together, they unpack the surprising value of regret and how embracing it can help leaders and customer experience professionals show up more intentionally—for their teams, their customers, and themselves.

Dedicated towards conveying important ideas to those who are willing to change. Access WG+ episodes available only on Apple Podcasts or support us with a monthly contribution here.

Send us a textIn this special re-release, we revisit my conversation with New York Times bestselling author Daniel Pink from a couple of years ago. After recently listening to this episode during one of my runs, I was reminded by how relevant his insights remain for both my personal and professional life—wisdom worth sharing again with my listeners.Daniel Pink, former speechwriter for Vice President Al Gore, has authored numerous influential works including "To Sell Is Human," "Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us," "A Whole New Mind," "Free Agent Nation," and his most recent book "The Power of Regret: How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward."Key InsightsDuring our conversation, Daniel shares invaluable life lessons that have resonated with audiences worldwide. As he powerfully states:"You cannot plan out careers in meticulous detail. You have to do things for the right reason, do things for their intrinsic value and be opportunistic and open to next steps. We need to focus on persistence over talent and the importance of leaving an imprint."We dive deep into the principles from "The Power of Regret," exploring how this universal human emotion can be transformed into a powerful tool for growth. Daniel offers practical strategies for harnessing regret as a catalyst for positive change rather than a source of paralysis.Education InsightsAn important segment of our discussion centers on Daniel's experience with the International Baccalaureate (IB) education system through his three children. As someone with over 25 years in the IB system myself, his observations about its transformative impact greatlly resonated with me.Why ListenWhether you're hearing this conversation for the first time or revisiting it, Daniel Pink's timeless wisdom offers valuable perspective on motivation, regret, career development, and education. I encourage you to explore "The Power of Regret" and his other works to further benefit from his insights.It was truly an honor to speak with Daniel, and I'm delighted to share this important conversation with you once again.Connect With Daniel Pink: WebsiteDaniel Pink's BooksTwitter 'X'LinkedIn

In today's Part 2 episode, award-winning author Daniel Pink joins Ryan to explore how fear of regret, awkwardness, and failure hold us back—and how embracing a 'shots on goal' mindset can be life-changing. Dan opens up about how he reframed a personal regret to shape his future choices, while Ryan shares what he sees as his own version of the infamous 'No Ragrets' tattoo.Daniel Pink is an award-winning author of five New York Times bestsellers, including his latest, The Power of Regret: How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward. His other books include the New York Times bestsellers When and A Whole New Mind — as well as the #1 New York Times bestsellers Drive and To Sell is Human. Follow Daniel on Instagram and X @DanielPinkSign up for Daniel's newsletter The Pink Report: https://www.danpink.com/

Tara Landes, GenX, has been the secret weapon hundreds ofsmall businesses leaders have used as they solve operational challenges for over 25 years. She is a certified change management practitioner from The Prosci Institute and a licensed influence trainer from The Cialdini Institute.She is also the lead faculty member for the Bellrock management training programs, which are unique in both methods and results. In this episode she brings her expertise in influencing others with grounded research and such enjoyable storytelling. She breaks down the psychology of influence using research-backed insights from Dr. Robert Cialdini, Daniel Kahneman, and Daniel Pink. Note: When we talk about influence in this episode, we mean ethical influence—using psychology to guide decisions responsibly, not manipulate. What You'll Learn in This Episode:0:00 Intro1:06 Influence & Persuasion 2:28 Influencers5:52 Robert Cialdini Book Overview7:08 Reciprocity12:15 Sales14:23 Liking17:04 Authority19:37 GenZ Cynicism20:40 Kahneman's System 1 and System 224:30 Consistency27:47 ScarcityQuotable Moments:*Influencers are using different aspects of the practice ofinfluence.”“The law of reciprocity states that if I give yousomething, you feel obligated to give me something back.”“There is power in making a concession.”“In my household if I have a way to make people say yes tome more often, my life is a little bit better….and their lives are a little bit better when get me to say yes.” “Before you do business with someone, build some rapport.” “When we're teaching about influence, we're teaching aboutusing it for good.”“Now is a difficult time for all sorts of things. It is hardto know who to trust. Our traditional go-to way of making decisions is really being upended.”“Most of what we do is on auto-pilot.”“Consistency is about having other people that you'reworking with agree to smaller things because they'll agree to something larger to be consistent…we like to feel internally consistent.”“Scarcity is when people want something they're afraidthey'll miss getting.”“It takes a really long time to find friends, so find yourpeople and stay in touch.” Three Episode Takeaways: 1.   Influence is broader and persuasion is narrower – Influence is what we do to nudge people along overtime. Persuasion is a subset of that where we're actually getting someone to take an action. Influencers use social proof and authority when we are uncertain about what to do.2.   The 7 common aspects of influence Dr. Cialdini found universal: reciprocity, liking, authority, consistency, scarcity, social proof and unity. Many times we don't realize how we're being influenced. 3.   41% of our day is spent selling what we're trying to accomplish. We also like to do business with people we like so figure out what we have in-common to connect.Upcoming Event:Next cohort begins in May.Registration is now open.https://bellrock.ca/our-training/management-training/  Episode Resource: Robert Cialdini's Book: Influencehttps://amazon.comDaniel Khaneman https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/economic-sciences/2002/kahneman/biographical/ To Sell is Human, Daniel S. Pinkhttps://amazon.com Ep. 212 Understanding Ourselves Through Talk: A Conversation with Dr. Amanda Kenderes https://spotifycreators-web.app.link/e/dlIeLxU3uRb Eps. 110 & 111 The Power of Regret: From Regrets to Resiliencehttps://girltaketheleadpod.com/episode/111-more-about-daniel-pinks-the-power-of-regret-from-regrets-to-resilience How to reach Tara:www.bellrock.cahttps://www.linkedin.com/in/taralandes/ How to reach Yo:  Our website:www.girltaketheleadpod.com You can send a message or voicemail there. We'd love to hear from you! email:yo@yocanny.com FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/272025931481748/?ref=share IG:yocanny  YouTube LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/yocanny/

We all experience regret, but what if we could turn it into an advantage? Best-selling author Daniel Pink joins Ryan to reveal how regret isn't just a painful emotion—it's a powerful tool for growth, better decision-making, and a more fulfilling life. They talk about the challenge of juggling work and family, the surprising most common regrets people have, and the eye-opening data on how regret shapes our future.Daniel Pink is an award-winning author of five New York Times bestsellers, including his latest, The Power of Regret: How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward. His other books include the New York Times bestsellers When and A Whole New Mind — as well as the #1 New York Times bestsellers Drive and To Sell is Human.

Want to Start or Grow a Successful Business? Schedule a FREE 13-Point Assessment with Clay Clark Today At: www.ThrivetimeShow.com   Join Clay Clark's Thrivetime Show Business Workshop!!! Learn Branding, Marketing, SEO, Sales, Workflow Design, Accounting & More. **Request Tickets & See Testimonials At: www.ThrivetimeShow.com  **Request Tickets Via Text At (918) 851-0102   See the Thousands of Success Stories and Millionaires That Clay Clark Has Helped to Produce HERE: https://www.thrivetimeshow.com/testimonials/ Download A Millionaire's Guide to Become Sustainably Rich: A Step-by-Step Guide to Become a Successful Money-Generating and Time-Freedom Creating Business HERE: www.ThrivetimeShow.com/Millionaire   See Thousands of Case Studies Today HERE: www.thrivetimeshow.com/does-it-work/  

We're often told that success comes down to talent, hard work, and luck. But Adam Grant's research suggests that view is missing something crucial. In today's installment of Next Big Idea Classics, Adam revisits his 2013 bestseller “Give and Take,” explaining how our interactions with others determine who thrives and who doesn't.

 As far as student motivation goes, letter grades get a big fat “F.” Author Daniel Pink joins host Krys Boyd to discuss the history of letter and number grading, why they don't move students to care about their education or help with material retention, and why it might be time to ditch them altogether. His article “Why not get rid of grades?” was published in The Washington Post.  Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices

Send us a textAbout This EpisodePaula Davis, founder of the Stress and Resilience Institute, takes us on her bold journey from burnout to breakthrough in this compelling conversation. Paula's story begins with a choice between her health and her career– a decision point many professionals face but few discuss openly. After walking away from her law practice, she discovered her true calling: helping leaders and teams prevent burnout before it happens. Her personal experience of values misalignment became the catalyst for the research and framework that would ultimately help thousands. Paula also dives into the five leadership mindsets from her new book, Beating Burnout at Work: Why Teams Hold the Secret to Well-Being & Resilience. From creating "sticky recognition" that makes team members feel genuinely valued to building workload sustainability, Paula offers practical strategies for leaders at every level. Tune in to start improving how your team works. Paula recommends starting with recognition and mattering, the foundational mindset that opens the door to resilience, belonging, and exceptional performance. About Paula DavisPaula Davis JD, MAPP, is the Founder and CEO of the Stress & Resilience Institute. For 15 years, she has been a trusted advisor to leaders in organizations of all sizes helping them to make work better. Paula is a globally recognized expert on the effects of workplace stress, burnout prevention, workplace well-being, and building resilience for individuals and teams. Paula left her law practice after seven years and earned a master's degree in applied positive psychology from the University of Pennsylvania. As part of her post-graduate training, Paula was selected to be part of the University of Pennsylvania faculty teaching and training resilience skills to soldiers as part of the Army's Comprehensive Soldier and Family Fitness program. Paula is the author of Beating Burnout at Work: Why Teams Hold the Secret to Well-Being & Resilience, which is about burnout prevention using a teams-based approach. Beating Burnout at Work was nominated for best new book by the Next Big Idea Club, which is curated by Adam Grant, Susan Cain, Malcom Gladwell, and Daniel Pink. Paula has shared her expertise at educational institutions such as Harvard Law School, Wharton School Executive Education, and Princeton. She is a two-time recipient of the distinguished teaching award from the Medical College of Wisconsin. She has been featured in and on The New York Times, O, The Oprah Magazine, The Washington Post and many other media outlets. Paula is also a contributor to Forbes, Fast Company and Psychology Today. Additional ResourcesWebsite: stressandresilience.comInstagram: @stressandresilienceLinkedIn: @PaulaDavisSupport the show-------- Stay Connected www.leighburgess.com Watch the episodes on YouTube Follow Leigh on Instagram: @theleighaburgess Follow Leigh on LinkedIn: @LeighBurgess Sign up for Leigh's bold newsletter

Ever left a meeting feeling more drained than before it started? That’s the dreaded meeting hangover. Brian Milner and Julie Chickering dive into why bad meetings have lasting effects—and what facilitators AND participants can do to make them better. Overview Bad meetings don’t just waste time, they drain energy, morale, and engagement long after they’re over. In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian and Julie Chickering unpack the concept of "meeting hangovers"—the lingering negative effects of ineffective meetings. They explore why bad meetings happen, the shared responsibility of facilitators and participants, and practical strategies for turning the tide. From fostering accountability to knowing when to walk it off, this conversation will help you rethink how meetings impact team dynamics and productivity. References and resources mentioned in the show: Julie Chickering #137 Stop Wasting Time with Guests Kate Megaw HBR The Hidden Toll of Meeting Hangovers by Brent N. Reed, et al. When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing by Daniel H. Pink Remotely Productive by Alex Pukinskis Working on a Scrum Team Class Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Julie Chickering is the brains and brawn behind JC Agile Consulting, believes that Lean and Agile practices are packed with potential — to enable positive culture change, business agility, and breakthrough results. Julie is a past president and board member of the Agile Project Management Network (APLN), a Certified Scrum Trainer (CST), PMI Agile Certified Practitioner (PMI-ACP), as well as a traditional Project Management Professional (PMP). Auto-generated Transcript: Brian Milner (00:00) Welcome back Agile Mentors. We're here for another episode of Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always Brian Milner and haven't got to say this for a while. So I'm happy to say again, welcome back to the show, the fabulous Julie Chickering. Welcome back, Julie. Julie (00:15) Thanks, Brian. Glad to be here. Brian Milner (00:17) Yeah, very excited to have Julie back. Julie is a friend of the show. We've had her on multiple times and it's been too long. We just need to have you on more often again. So thank you for making the time and coming back. We wanted to have Julie on sort of as a little bit of a continuation from our last episode that we had with Kate McGaw. You we talked a little bit about facilitation there and there was a lot that we talked about initially to set that up to talk about Julie (00:30) Sure. Brian Milner (00:44) just the fact that there's an epidemic of bad meetings. There's kind of a harmful thing happening where it's extremely prevalent that meetings are going poorly. There's not a lot of attention that's given to this. There's not a lot of focus in a lot of organizations because it's such a prevalent issue. of our meetings being so bad. And Julie pointed out to me this Harvard Business Review article that sort of became a touchstone, I think, for what we wanted to talk about. It's called the hidden toll of meeting hangovers. And we'll link to this in the show notes. But the idea behind the article was just to say, they quoted a stat early on saying that they did a study and found that more than a quarter, 28 % of meetings left employees with lingering negative effects, such as impaired engagement and productivity. And so that's what they were referring to this sort of this meeting hangover, that bad meetings take a toll beyond just the lost time in the meeting. And that's kind of what we were talking about more with Kate is, you know, yeah, we want to make our meetings better, but there is sort of this ongoing lingering that, you know, from my reading of this and what I've experienced, kind of compounds, you know? One bad meeting then can lead to another bad meeting and another one and that feeling of anxiety and disconnectedness and like I said here, impaired engagement and productivity, those kind of grow and get worse and worse the longer that you have these bad meetings. So Julie, I'll just start with you and say, you know, when you read this article, what was it? What was it that really stood out to you, that jumped out to you, that made you think this was an important kind of area of focus? Julie (02:27) First of all, I love the title because I can relate to it. So when you're having a hangover, you just feel terrible, right? And this person that they talk about first, Jacob, about like, he was so frustrated when he left the meeting. So the introductory story when he was so frustrated when he left the meeting, he canceled his one-on-one right after because he knew he couldn't concentrate. And then he was just like so upset. for the rest of the day and talking about how he just didn't even want to work on the project anymore. So just this, I just got this physical sensation reading this around how it feels when you're in a meeting that's ineffective. And we've all been there and I could just like feel it in my body when I read this story. And I also feel like once you know what I, what an ineffective meeting feels like, the ineffective one is more noticeable and draining. yeah, so and then this this lingering effect of morale and just wasted, just wasted opportunity. And it feels like Brian Milner (03:32) Yeah. Yeah. Julie (03:47) in the corporate world, this is the norm. That we just have meeting after meeting after meeting that's just sucking the life force out of everyone. And then we wonder why nothing gets done. Brian Milner (04:00) Yeah, I mean, this article is packed with statistics and it's tempting for me to just kind of read them all off to you. I'm not going to do that. But there's a couple of things that kind of jump out to me. they talk about how around half of people have this feeling of that as a result of the hangover from the meeting, that they have negative or harmful impacts on their interactions with coworkers. They feel more disconnected from their team. and they want to spend more time alone based on the fact that, I went through this really kind of, there's no other way to say it, traumatic experience of having this really harmful, bad meeting. they connect the dots by saying, people will leave these meetings and oftentimes they will then go commiserate with coworkers and say, share their frustrations, which is helpful, it's good. But it also, you know, they noted here, this can kind of spread some feeling of negativity or hopelessness, you know, that it's always going to be this way. You know, yeah, I had a meeting like that as well. Boy, I guess this place is doomed. It's always going to feel like this. And so they have this kind of ongoing, as I said, compounding almost nature of it that one bad thing leads to another leads to another leads to another. And pretty soon you've got this really harmful, negative work environment and it's not necessarily something that's just happened. It's just the repetition of going through those things lead to this ongoing negative psychological impact in the organization. Julie (05:28) Yeah, I'm just smiling because I can just think of some meetings that I used to have a leader that would always show up late. Always show up late. We'd be halfway through the topic and then he would show up and we'd have to stop what we were doing and go circle back and just speed and you could just feel. the whole mood of the meeting change. We were actually making progress and we have to stop and we have to go all the way over. And this is constant. So what we would do afterwards is then have meetings after the meetings to complain about the leader doing that. The more adult thing would have been of course to say to the leader, when you do this, Brian Milner (06:15) Yeah. Julie (06:22) This is the outcome. Brian Milner (06:25) Yeah. So, so that's kind of, you know, what we want to talk about a little bit in here as well is, in the last episode, we, focused a lot on facilitation and the idea that, Hey, there's a lot of responsibility to the meeting organizer, whoever's facilitating this to not have it be this negative kind of environment. And I don't disagree with any of that, that we talked about in the last episode. I think there is a lot of that, that is true, but I think it's, it's. important for participants to not look at that as, it's all the facilitator then, right? I'm just a participant, I'm showing up and it's your job to get all this stuff out of me. And if the meeting goes poorly, that's entirely your fault. And I think it's important for us to recognize, no, if I'm a participant, if I accept that meeting invite and I'm here, I have a role to play. I have a contribution to be made and I can have, you Julie (07:14) Right. Brian Milner (07:19) as kind of Pollyanna-ish as it sounds, I can have a negative impact or a positive impact on this meeting. And I think that's an important kind of responsibility to take a hold of. Julie (07:25) you Yeah, I agree. And I think about that in a couple of ways. So actually, in both Scrum Master and Product Owner class, I remind them at the end of every meeting to ask two questions. The next time we have this kind of meeting, what would you want to do differently? But you gotta ask the question. And if you ask the question and nobody says anything, then they can't feel victim to a poorly run meeting. But you gotta be able to listen. You gotta be able to listen to it. Doesn't mean you have to say yes in the moment. It could be that you would follow up after, but just ask the question. What would you wanna do differently the next time we have this type of meeting And then ask them, what did they like? Brian Milner (07:48) Yeah. That's good. Julie (08:11) I used to do it the other way around. I don't know if I told you this story before or not, but do you remember Daniel Pink did the he was our keynote speaker at the Scrum Gathering, our conference a few years ago when he talked about. OK, when he talked about timing. OK, so something he said is like, yes, he said, as people, if there's two, if there's good news and bad news to always start with the bad news first. And end with the good news, because as people, we remember the last thing we talked about it. Brian Milner (08:20) Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Julie (08:40) So if I say to you, okay, the next time we have this type of meeting, what would you want to do differently? And nobody says anything. Okay. What did you like? And then they leave going, we actually got something done. Unless of course we didn't get anything done. Brian Milner (08:57) That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, I think about like how in classes, a lot of times when we talk about forecasting and estimation, you know, I make a little joke. It's not really a joke. It's the truth. But when I present, I've learned over the years when I present information to stakeholders about timings, I, know, if, if I do calculations and it says it's going to take between five and six sprints to do something, I've learned to say the maximum amount of time it will take is six sprints. there's a chance it could come in as soon as it's five sprints and yeah. Yeah. I mean, I learned to do that because what I say in classes, I've learned a lot of people stop listening after the first one. And I think actually though, I may be wrong. It may be more what you're saying that, you know, we, we remember the last thing that we hear. but it may be a combination, right? Cause if, if I hear the low number first and I I'm happy with that, I stopped listening and I don't want to hear the bad news. Julie (09:27) Brilliant! Brian Milner (09:50) So if I say the bad news first, it could take as long as this, but there's a chance it could come in earlier, then I'm leaving them with the good news that it could be this, you know, as soon as this, but they've set their expectation that, you know, it could take as long as, you know, the bad news that I gave them initially. So I don't know, maybe there's a combination of that there as well. But yeah, I agree with what Daniel Pink says about that. And timings do make a big, difference for sure. and how we present things. Julie (10:18) Okay, so a key though in that is that you can only ask those questions if you're staying within the time box and you've allocated time to actually ask the question. And like some of these things that came up as the root causes of like poor time management, like running over or stuff like that. If you're running over, nobody's going to really want to take the opportunity to give you feedback. So what do you think about, so what you talked with Kate a lot about when we talking about here is the role of the facilitator. And I think we should talk about what people can do if they are feeling like they're the victim of the lack of facilitation or poor facilitation. So what do think about that? Brian Milner (10:52) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think we have several roles to play, right? I I agree. If I'm not the facilitator, then it's important for me to come into that meeting, well, knowing what the expectation is. know, like if I'm coming into a meeting as a participant, I don't think it's responsible. to show up to the meeting. And I've shown up to meetings like this, showing up with the attitude that, hey, it's not my meeting. It's the other person's meeting. You got me. I'm here. But now it's on you to get out of me, whatever it is that you're hoping to get. And maybe I put in very little prep work for it. So there is some kind of interplay here between the facilitator and the participant. Because you could say, well, that's the facilitator's responsibility to help you understand. Yes, it is. That's, this is what I'm trying to say is I, I think it's a mistake to shirk that responsibility entirely and say, I'm not the facilitator. Don't look at me. Right. If, if they didn't ask me to prepare or, or, you know, here's what I need you to, to, come prepared to talk about. Well, then I've got a bad facilitator and you know, we're just, we're hopelessly going to be in a bad meeting. No, when I get the invite, you know, Kate said last week, you know, Julie (12:17) Mm-hmm. Brian Milner (12:22) You can decline invitations to meetings. You don't have to accept every meeting invite that you get. But if you do accept it, I think that there's an accepting of responsibility there to say, all right, I'm going to be a participant in this meeting. What do you need from me? And in advance, making sure you talk to that meeting organizer and saying, hey, I agree. This is probably a good thing for us to meet about, but I want to prepare. I want to know that I can come to this meeting armed with information that's going to be helpful to others and I can play my part. So meeting facilitator, meeting organizer, what did you have in mind for me in this meeting? What is it that you were hoping to get from me in this meeting so that I can show up prepared? And that small little question, I think, does several things, right? mean, one, it says, to the facilitator, do you know what it is that you want from this person? If they come back at you and say, I don't know, I just thought maybe you needed, well, if they say, you know, we just thought maybe you needed to be in the loop or whatever, well, I might come back at that and say, that sounds like an email, you know? Julie (13:31) Yeah, I'm also thinking though there's the flip side of then people, there's two different things. I want to go back to how I can also help. what also struck me when you were saying that is that I think there's also this cultural part of am I being excluded? That, you know, that sense of They're not inviting me. A lot of times people don't need to be there. What you're afraid if you're not there, does that mean something? Does it mean you're being cut out? You're not important? There's that whole ego part. Yeah. Brian Milner (14:04) Yeah. Right. Sure, mean, especially if there's a decision to be made, right? You could feel like, they don't want my voice in that decision. And I think that that's a legitimate concern. If I'm responsible for an area and decisions are gonna be made in the meeting and I'm left out of that invitation, I might have a concern and say, if there's gonna be a decision made around this, I probably should have an input. Is there reason why you didn't want my input in this meeting? And, you know, even asking that question can sometimes just trigger, well, this is lower level things. This is not really at the level that you weigh in on. Usually we didn't want to waste your time, you know, something like that. You might find out it has nothing to do with the fact that they didn't want your opinion. It was more of, we were trying to be conscious of your time and, and, and didn't think that this was the kind of thing that you would need to weigh in on. So you might have a micromanaging kind of problem there that you need to address as well. Julie (15:11) Yeah, this is all people's stuff. It's what makes it fun. Brian Milner (15:14) Yeah. I want to, want to just, I'm sorry. I don't want to mean to interrupt you, but there's one thing I've been thinking about this whole time as well, because we've been talking about bad meetings and bad meeting hangovers. And I think initially the first thought that kind of comes to our heads about that is facilitation and maybe the meeting not being organized well. But I think there's another thing that makes a meeting a bad meeting that it's important to call out as well. Julie (15:37) Mm. Brian Milner (15:40) I'll just give you an example. I remember there was a job I took the very first day of the job. It my first day on the job. We had a meeting with some of the other leaders in that organization, and I got called into this, and they introduced me. Hey, this is Brian. I remember them saying, he's the new whatever, whatever the last guy was that had my position. OK, he's the new whoever. And we got into discussion about upcoming things, the status of different projects and other things. in the middle of that meeting, there became a shouting match and there were F bombs dropped left and right. And I remember walking out of that meeting going, what the hell did I get myself into? You know? so what I'm trying to call out there is there are sometimes bad meetings. It's not about the facilitation or the order or the agenda or anything else. There's sometimes bad meetings because we don't bring kind of the Julie (16:15) Mm-hmm. Brian Milner (16:29) best parts of ourselves to the meeting. We bring the worst parts of ourselves to the meeting. And sometimes we don't censor that and we don't let those, we don't kind of, I don't know how to put it. We're not engaging civilly, right? And I know that sometimes when I've been in those and I've had multiple of those kinds of meetings like that, that I would say, yeah, that was a bad meeting. But it wasn't because the facilitator did a bad job. It's because the participants were kind of letting their inner demons manifest through themselves in the meeting and they weren't really treating everyone with respect. They were very disrespectful to their coworkers. And I think that that's maybe more common than we care to admit. Julie (17:05) Mm-hmm. Yes, when you're sharing that to me, that goes back to meeting working agreements. like, what can I, so if we go back to, if you're in a situation where you're in a bad meeting, even if the facilitator is doing the best that they can, there's things that you can do. So to me, if we've had, and I know you were brand new, but you said that that was not. uncommon. If we had meeting working agreements and you let out an F-bomb and that was against the meeting agreements that anyone else in the room can say, you just broke one of our, you can, you, anyone can call people on that behavior. shouldn't have to be just the facilitator because the facilitator might be like just trying to run through, okay, now what am I going to do? It might be needing to just take a little breath to figure out what do, right? But I can imagine if that was the norm in that environment that people got that disrespectful in the meeting that when people left, there was a hangover effect. Like you kind of was like, what am I doing? Brian Milner (18:07) Right. Julie (18:27) What's happening here? What's going on? What did I sign up for on day one? This is day one. What's day two going to be like? Are we holding back? Right. Here's the new guy. Let's be on our good behavior. We'll only drop three F bombs instead of four. So, at, I was very fortunate that at, Brian Milner (18:27) Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, they were on their best behavior, right? Guess I was new. Yeah. Julie (18:50) rally software, just, this was norm. It was normal to learn, everyone learned how to facilitate and be good participants and all that, except it was really quite funny at our coaches events because we had to have the working agreement that the facilitator actually got to choose how to facilitate, but we didn't get to facilitate the facilitators. But anyway, I have started recommending Alex Bukinski's book, remotely productive. took a lot of what Jean taught us and help is helping people apply that remotely. So like chapter four is how to help in a bad meeting. So if you're a participant and it's going bad, how can you help get back on track in a respectful way? So not being, not being a jerk about it. But even, so he just even gives examples of things like. when somebody makes a recommendation. like noticing when people agree on an action and you type it into chat. It doesn't have to be the facilitator who types it into chat. Like as a participant, you can go, okay, the action was or a decision was made noting decisions, decision, write the decision down, but helping the facilitator be like, we would talk about that. Actually, I forgot until I just started speaking out about it that often, especially in Brian Milner (19:54) Yeah. Yeah. Julie (20:11) big significant meetings, would have a scribe, a facilitator and a scribe. So this is what he's talking about actually is somebody scribing. Brian Milner (20:22) Yeah, yeah, that's a very important component because if we just shout things out and no one's really capturing what the next steps are, those are going to get lost. And we could have to repeat this meeting because we just didn't really follow up in any way. We didn't take any action. So I agree. That's an important component of it is at least designating that it doesn't have to be one person, but just designating that, hey, here's the expectation. Here's what we're going to do. Yeah. Julie (20:49) Um, yeah. So there's a bunch of really good tips in here and like the Kindle version's 1499 or something. So I've been telling people like, if you can have just one meeting that sucks less, you're going to get your 1499 back. So if you could have one less meeting hangover, you're to get your 1499 back, think for sure. Brian Milner (20:49) That's a great tip. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I should clarify with my story earlier that I'm a big boy. It wasn't the language that bothered me. It was directed at someone else, like kind of F-U, that kind of thing. That's a very different dynamic than just saying, those effing suppliers, I sure hate that. That's fine. Or maybe more fine for others than some, but. Julie (21:21) Mm-hmm. Right. Brian Milner (21:38) That didn't bother me, was more just that the attitude behind it was a negative one towards someone else. But yeah, that's a great tip there, just understanding that when I'm a participant there, when I show up, that I have a role to play in it as well. There's things I can do and if there's not notes being taken, then I can maybe step up and do that. Hey, someone said we're going to need to do this? All right, let me put that in the chat. Remember, this is what needs to happen. Julie (22:05) Yeah, and he gives nice, some like a template here on when we're making decisions like data, diagnosis, direction, do next. So he's given a nice, he gives a lot of really great tools. I'm really, and like liking it quite a bit. back to your, your example that is, in the, the behavior part. was a lack of respect versus really the content. Yeah, I get that. The conflict that's going on. Brian Milner (22:42) Yeah. The tip from the book you just mentioned kind of aligns also to something that's in this article, the Harvard Business Review article. One of the things it says is they have some tips in this as well. And one of the things they say is demand accountability every time. And I think that's a good kind of takeaway as well is they're specifically talking about these action items, things that we would do as a result. As a participant, think it's important to, I like that language, demand accountability. If we have this meeting, all right, what is it that you're hoping to get out of this? I'm showing up, I'm here, what do you need from me? What are we gonna do as a result of this? Any participant can ask that. Any participant can say, so that we don't just waste this time, what are we going to do next? Julie (23:11) Mm-hmm. Brian Milner (23:29) I think you demand accountability when you do that. Julie (23:33) Yeah, and I would say too, the first thing we should ask is what's the purpose of this meeting? And so if you go up to turn agendas into action plans, Jean taught us is you have a purpose statement. And then actually she taught us that what are the questions we need to answer in order to meet the purpose? Those are our agenda topics. When we've answered those questions, we're complete with this meeting. And then like where the Brian Milner (23:39) Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Julie (24:01) come back down here to make every minute count. Don't run over. Alex also gives some nice gentle waves of doing like we would say time check. We have 10 more minutes left. You could just put that in chat time check. We have 10 more minutes left. You don't have to be the facilitator to be like time check. So I do like that. He's helping people think about what they can do versus just being victim to Brian Milner (24:05) Yeah. Julie (24:29) the lack of facilitation. Brian Milner (24:31) Yeah. And as a participant, I can, I can check in at the start of the meeting and say, all right, just, want to, I want to, have a time box check here. Our meeting is scheduled from this time to this time. That's our time box, right? We can't, is there, or I have something right after this. just so you know, here's my time box. can't go further than this. and you know, I think as a participant, it's. Julie (24:46) Hmm. Brian Milner (24:56) you can have those same effects just like you said, hey, time box check, it's this, we got this much time left. And as a facilitator, I know I've reached the end of our time boxes sometimes when we haven't really gotten as far as I had hoped, but I've been okay saying this was a good start. This was a good start to what it is we need to decide. Obviously this is gonna take more time. We are at our time box, so we're gonna have to wrap this meeting up, but we'll schedule follow-ups and we'll take it from here. If I'm entering a meeting where I need a decision by the end of that time box, then by all means, make sure people are aware of that from the start. If I'm a participant or if I'm the facilitator, we're here together, but we all need to understand that we need to leave this with a decision on this. Julie (25:37) Yeah. So the other thing, Kia, I believe, around the decision is, and also be clear about how we're going to make the decision. So is this going to be a collaborative decision? We're all going to vote? Or are we getting, everyone going to give their opinion? Somebody else is going to make the decision? And then we'll check, like, how are we, how is the decision going to be made? So that's not a surprise as well. Brian Milner (25:50) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, extremely important. I know when I talk about in our product owner classes about doing things like buy a feature as a way to prioritize, one of the things I always try to say to the stakeholders is, hey, we're going to play by a feature, but this is no promise that this is going to be what the final prioritization is. You're helping me to prioritize, but I want to set the expectation. I have to take into account your opinions and other people's opinions and market factors and lots of other things. So make sure we're on the same page. We need to understand this is a component of the decision. I will make the final decision outside of this meeting, but I really appreciate the input and I need your input to help me make the decision. Julie (26:32) Right. Yeah, love that example. So moving down when they say press paw, how to recover how to press. Brian Milner (26:55) Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you find yourself having a hangover from one of these bad meetings, yeah. Julie (27:01) Well, even if it's a great meeting, I am a fan of Adam Grant and I can't like pull up the where he said it. And he said it someplace that the studies show that people actually need like 10 minutes between topics. So if you're going to finish a meeting, you should have at least 10 minutes before the next meeting to be able to. Brian Milner (27:19) Yeah. Julie (27:27) focus and reframe. So I also feel like sometimes these meetings are bad because people are rushing from meeting to meeting. They don't have time to take a bio break or get a bite to eat. So now they're hungry and all that kind of stuff. But we do this to people on a regular basis. Brian Milner (27:46) Yeah, yeah. But, and I agree with that. if it's a good meeting or a bad meeting, I'll find myself, because I work from home exclusively. Well, I shouldn't say exclusively. Sometimes I'll go and work on site with different companies. But when I'm working from home, I'll leave the meeting of something I've just talked about and I'll have to go get more tea or something. And there's a little decompression of, wow, let me kind of throw that off, right? Let me take a deep breath. And now I can reset and I'm ready for whatever the next thing is. But I find I do that kind of naturally and I can't imagine not doing it. I can't imagine kind of going one thing to the other all the time and never having that break. That would kill me. Yeah. Julie (28:31) It happens all the time. It happens all the time. back to meeting working agreements. That's another one that I suggest is people don't start like at the top or the bottom of the hour. Like they offset it a bit to build in breaks. But when you're setting that time box, you got to set, you got to leave space in your agenda time. You have to leave space in your time, your meeting time to close your meeting properly. Brian Milner (28:59) Yeah. Yeah. Julie (29:01) We don't think about how much time that takes either. So it all adds up for sure. Brian Milner (29:09) I like the idea too that they have in here of walking it off. I know just in my work history, kind of like the example I gave you, there have been times when I've been through meetings where I feel like, yeah, I just got to get this off of me. And I have taken... remember, know, in certain circumstances, I'm not a smoker at all, but I, I had, I've always had developers that smoke in some way, shape or form. I, I wouldn't be uncommon for me to go and just stand outside with them while they smoke. or I'll walk down to the corner and get a drink or something and come back. there's something about taking that walk, getting outside the office. or if I'm here working at home, you know, maybe I'll even just go take the dog for a quick walk around the block. And by the time I come back, that's such a good way to. just kind of let whatever that is go away and reset. Now I'm ready to do what I need to do next, but it all goes to know, eliminating that hangover effect that I might have that came from a bad meeting. Julie (30:12) Yeah, so another facilitation tip around that, especially if you've just done a big meeting, if you can, walk it off with someone else. But do it in a debrief way, like what did you learn? And so we would talk about walking the walls. If we're physically together, we have stuff all over, like grab a friend. Brian Milner (30:21) Mmm. Yeah. Julie (30:34) or grab something you don't usually talk to and then walk the walls, so to speak. So at the end of class when I do have enough time, I like them in their breakout rooms to just debrief each other. Like what are a few things you want to try and remember? Because we all remember different things. So there's different ways you can do it. The way they talk about walking it off is it Brian Milner (30:38) Yeah. Julie (31:01) to avoid the hangover, but hopefully we're gonna switch the culture and people are gonna have good meetings and they're gonna wanna talk about positive stuff at the end. I mean, there's both ways of thinking about that physically, I think. Brian Milner (31:13) Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Well, I hope people have gotten a lot of this. You know, we kind of debated, we do this? Should we talk about this? It's so close to kind of the last topic, but I do kind of see it as a part one and part two. You know, there is a part one of that that is, bad meetings sometimes are very much a cause and effect of not facilitating well. But I would hate for people to entirely think, well, it's just the facilitator. there are only one person in the room. And if all the other people think that's not really my responsibility and I don't really have a part to play in this, then the facilitator can only do so much. Julie (31:45) Yeah. Yeah, and depending on what type of meeting it is, like really big, significant, like quarterly planning meetings, then the facilitator needs to do more work, in my opinion, to set everybody up for success. So depending on the size, the length, the... Some meetings need more structure than others, but I agree that as participants, you gotta have accountability to and how it's going and do I need to be here? What's the purpose? If the purpose isn't introduced, then you would ask kindly, what's the purpose of the meeting? What are we trying to accomplish here? I'm just wondering, I'm just checking in. just, not like, the hell am doing here? Brian Milner (32:38) Right, right. Julie (32:39) was to make sure that I'm, you know, whatever. But I do like what Kate said. don't know. You should be able to ask the questions. You should be able to decline all of that. So here's what I'm thinking now, Brian. Another thing people could do, though, is if they start to pay attention to the cost. Brian Milner (32:44) Yeah. Julie (33:05) of being in meetings just through their own health and well-being, then yes, they can be proactive. They can learn a few tips from Alex, but then maybe they, even if they're not the Scrum Master or someone who would normally be assigned to becoming a facilitator, maybe they can get some of the facilitator training because... The training that Kate was talking about really is applicable to any kind of role. It doesn't have to be the scrum master or product owner or team lead or manager. It's really applicable to all people. And then the other thing too, if it's something that say you're in the developer level role, even if you're a business analyst, quality, whatever, quality engineer, whatever, and you wanna become a facilitator. get the training and see if you like it. Then you can kind of be stealth-like in there with, and I feel like that's some of the things Alex is trying to teach people as well. If you're going to be the facilitator or the participant, that there's ways that you can make a difference in a positive way. Brian Milner (33:59) Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely agree. agree. Well, this has been a great conversation. We got to have you on more often. So I apologize it's been so long, but I really appreciate you taking the time and bringing this topic up. And it's a great, great focus for us, I think. thanks for bringing it, Julie. Julie (34:21) Beautiful. Well, I don't have a meeting hangover, do you? Brian Milner (34:36) I do not. I feel great. I don't need to walk anything off right now. Awesome. There we go. I'm right there with you. All right. Thanks, Julie. Julie (34:39) Me either. I'll just go back to drinking tea. Okay. right. Thank you. Yep.

453 Reflections with Actions with Amy Rowlinson After every five guest interviews, I take time to reflect on each episode, honing in on specific topics, unravelling different threads and diving deeper into the moments that sparked my curiosity. In this episode, I explore themes such as storytelling, neurodiversity, Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DEI), motivation, mastery, autonomy, truth and rigour, sharing my Reflections with Actions drawn from these five recent podcast conversations: 448 Health, Wealth and Happiness with Gurps Khaira 449 Keys to Self-Compassion with Charlie Hart 450 Redesigning for Difference with Nadia Nagamootoo 451 Reveal Your Brilliance with Sarah Stones 452 Storytelling with Substance Simon Raybould   KEY TAKEAWAY ‘If you're striving toward your own version of meaningful success, remember, success isn't just about the outcome. It's about who you become in the process and the lives you impact along the way.'   BOOK RECOMMENDATIONS* Drive by Daniel Pink - https://amzn.eu/d/8ZEhdXp When by Daniel Pink - https://amzn.eu/d/iIwHBMt To Sell is Human by Daniel Pink - https://amzn.eu/d/7eI1MCd Traction by Gino Wickman - https://amzn.eu/d/4ci5Pkn Good to Great Jim Collins - https://amzn.eu/d/8sCZssi Start with Why by Simon Sinek - https://amzn.eu/d/1cUR1EM How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie - https://amzn.eu/d/fHKiA9J Focus on Why by Amy Rowlinson with George F. Kerr – https://amzn.eu/d/6W02HWu   ABOUT THE HOST - AMY ROWLINSON Amy is a purpose and fulfilment coach, author, podcast strategist, podcaster and mastermind host helping you to improve productivity, engagement and fulfilment in your everyday life and work. Prepare to banish overwhelm, underwhelm and frustration to live with clarity of purpose.   WORK WITH AMY If you're interested in how purpose can help you and your business, please book a free 30 min call via https://calendly.com/amyrowlinson/call   KEEP IN TOUCH WITH AMY Sign up for the weekly Friday Focus - https://www.amyrowlinson.com/subscribe-to-weekly-newsletter   CONNECT WITH AMY https://linktr.ee/AmyRowlinson   HOSTED BY: Amy Rowlinson   DISCLAIMER The views, thoughts and opinions expressed in this podcast belong solely to the host and guest speakers. Please conduct your own due diligence. *As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.

How might you be unknowingly obscuring your own natural brilliance and blocking your potential? Motivation Specialist Sarah Stones unpacks the transformative power of understanding personal motivational drivers and aligning them with work and life. She shares insights on uncovering your motivational blueprint, identifying misalignments, reflecting on energy levels and creating environments that fuel your unique strengths. Whether you're seeking fulfilment, navigating a career transition or leading a team, Sarah provides the keys to motivation and self-discovery-showing how one conversation can spark a lifetime of purpose and reveal your brilliance. KEY TAKEAWAY ‘I believe that if we are supporting someone's motivation, then by default, we're supporting their mental health and wellbeing.'   BOOK RECOMMENDATION* Drive by Daniel Pink - https://amzn.eu/d/hGVoIO9 ABOUT SARAH Sarah Stones is a Motivation Specialist, professional speaker, coach and trainer who helps individuals and organisations understand what truly drives them. Using innovative tools such as Motivational Maps® coupled with her professional background in HR and passion for empowering people to fulfil their potential, Sarah offers keynotes, workshops, and career and life coaching, training. Drawing from her personal journey of resilience (living with cerebral palsy and overcoming cancer) Sarah brings warmth, expertise and practical tools to inspire people to navigate life's challenges and find purpose.  Are you looking for a motivational speaker with a difference? Sarah is not a motivational speaker.  She is a Motivation Specialist who speaks about motivation. She doesn't believe anyone can stand up in front of an audience and motivate them. Other motivational speakers inspire their audiences. Sarah gives individuals the insight and tools to motivate themselves.   CONNECT WITH SARAH https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-stones/ https://www.facebook.com/PlainSailingMotivation https://www.instagram.com/motivationmadesimple https://plainsailingmotivation.co.uk/   ABOUT AMY Amy is a life purpose coach, author, podcast strategist, global podcaster, professional speaker, trainer and mastermind host. Work with Amy to improve productivity, engagement and fulfilment in your everyday life and work. Prepare to banish overwhelm, underwhelm and frustration to have clarity of purpose and create a more purposeful, sustainable and fulfilling way of life.   WORK WITH AMY If you're interested in how purpose can help you personally and professionally, please book a free 30 min call via https://calendly.com/amyrowlinson/call   BOOK RECOMMENDATION* Focus on Why by Amy Rowlinson with George F. Kerr – https://amzn.eu/d/6W02HWu   KEEP IN TOUCH WITH AMY Sign up for the weekly Friday Focus - https://www.amyrowlinson.com/subscribe-to-weekly-newsletter   CONNECT WITH AMY https://linktr.ee/AmyRowlinson   HOSTED BY: Amy Rowlinson   DISCLAIMER The views, thoughts and opinions expressed in this podcast belong solely to the host and guest speakers. Please conduct your own due diligence. *As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.

What makes us want to want to do things? Is it all about the Oreos and Doritos we earn along the way? Author Daniel Pink is here to fill us in on us. And then, get ready to improve in other areas - it's “Life Hacks with Captain Crinkle!” GUEST Daniel Pink danpink.com/books/drive/ HOUSE BAND Peter Echols SPONSORS Go to HelixSleep.com/paula for 27% Off Sitewide Start the new year off right with Honeylove. Get 20% OFF by going to honeylove.com/PAULA! #honeylovepod Get 15% off OneSkin with the code PAULA at oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Eat smart with Factor. Get started at FACTORMEALS.com/FACTORPODCAST and use code FACTORPODCAST to get 50% off your first box plus free shipping Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We're all tired. We feel sluggish and unfocused and out of sync with our bodies. We know that circadian rhythms are important, but we aren't exactly sure how they work. Instead, we're bombarded with solutions—blue-light blocking glasses, melatonin, light lamps, complicated eating schedules—without a clear explanation of the problem they're solving or the science behind them. The truth is circadian rhythms are a bigger part of our lives than we ever realized. Their wide-ranging effects can boggle the mind, and researchers are just starting to discover exactly how they function—and how much our modern lives have thrown them out of whack. It's time to give up that late-night TikTok doom scrolling. Science writer Lynne Peeples is here to help us reclaim the rhythms that profoundly affect our health and well-being in her groundbreaking book THE INNER CLOCK: Living in Sync with Our Circadian Rhythms (Riverhead Books; On Sale September 24, 2024) which has already received glowing praise (below) from James Nestor, Daniel Pink, Mary Roach, Dan Fagin, Deborah Blum and more. Misaligned circadian rhythm disrupt sleep, reduce productivity, and raise the risk of serious, life-threatening ailments. Our bodies are full of tiny timepieces synchronized to the sun and subtle signals in our environment, but they're up against modern insults like artificial light, contrived time zones, and late-night meals that wreak havoc on our internal clocks and health. THE INNER CLOCK explores the emerging and fascinating science behind circadian rhythms and its transformative applications. Peeples seeks out the scientists, astronauts, athletes, and patients at the forefront of a growing movement. We learn about experts and enthusiasts experimenting with their circadian clocks, with surprising results. Alongside rigorous reporting, Peeples tests the research as she sleeps in a Cold War–era bunker, chases the midnight sun, spits into test tubes, and wears high-tech light sensors to decipher what makes our internal clocks tick and how we can reset them for the better. She discusses everything from jet lag to aging connections with our circadian rhythms, productivity and athletic performance peaks to connections between circadian rhythms and our gut microbiome and even Alzheimer's disease.

New York Times bestselling author Daniel Pink joins the show to talk about navigating the changing landscape of professional work. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Ever looked back on a missed opportunity and thought, Ugh, what if? Well, you're not alone—and that feeling of regret might actually be one of the best tools for growth. I had the privilege of chatting with New York Times bestselling author Daniel Pink about his book The Power of Regret—the book that gave me the final push to launch this very podcast!Dan breaks down why regret gets a bad rap in our culture of toxic positivity and how it can actually help us make smarter choices. He conducted a massive study (we're talking 26,000+ regrets from people in 130 countries!) and uncovered four core types of regret that shape our lives. We got personal, talking about boldness regrets (yep, like not shooting your shot), connection regrets, and even my own struggles with juggling career, parenting, and ADHD. Spoiler: being kind to yourself is key.Instead of fearing regret, Dan suggests we flip the script—treat it as a guide, not a life sentence. Because in the end, regret isn't about what we did. It's about what we didn't do. So, if you're stuck in what could have been mode, this episode will help you leap forward. Tune in now!“Regret clarifies what we value and instructs us on how to live.” -Daniel PinkIn This Episode:-Daniel's research findings on regret from 26,000 participants-The four core types of regret-Why people regret more about playing it safe than taking risks-How regret can be a powerful tool for growth-The importance of self-compassion in overcoming regret-Career regrets in the workplace and why bold moves matter-How anticipating regret can lead to smarter decisions-Why the idea of “no regrets” is misleading-Practical steps to turn regret into opportunityAnd much more!Connect with Daniel Pink:-LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielpink/ -Website: https://www.danpink.com/ -Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/danielpink -Daniel's Book, The Power of Regret: https://amzn.to/33G8WF8Connect with Maureen Clough:-Instagram: @itgetslateearly - https://www.instagram.com/itgetslateearly/-YouTube: @itgetslateearly - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGrHwk-y7ERaq7bCSjZYf1A?sub_confirmation=1-Website: itgetslateearly.com - https://www.itgetslateearly.com/-Facebook: It Gets Late Early - https://www.facebook.com/people/It-gets-late-early/100088694515585/

As a bestselling author and leading voice on human behavior, Daniel Pink has spent years studying the emotions that shape our lives. But there's one feeling that seems universally taboo: regret. In a world that often embraces a ‘no regrets' mantra, Daniel Pink sees things differently. He believes regret can be a powerful guide—a spotlight revealing our true values and priorities. In this episode, Daniel digs into the science behind regret and explains why facing our missteps head-on can help us make better decisions and avoid repeating the same mistakes.  In this episode, Hala and Daniel will discuss:  (00:00) Introduction   (03:21) Daniel Pink's Personal Journey with Regret (05:50) Understanding Counterfactuals and Regret (09:03) The Value of Regret in Personal Growth (19:16) Research on Common Regrets (22:25) Deep Structure of Regrets (26:07) Foundation Regrets: The Impact of Small Decisions (26:45) Moral Regrets: The Weight of Right and Wrong (27:32) Connection Regrets: The Drift in Relationships (30:35) Inaction vs. Action: The Rules of Regret (32:56) Life Lessons from Regret: Reach Out and Take Action (39:10) Dealing with Regret: Inward, Outward, Forward (46:59) The Benefits of Regret: A Path to a Better Life (49:58) Final Thoughts and Advice for a Profitable Life   Daniel Pink is a bestselling author, keynote speaker, and thought leader. In 2011, he was named one of Thinkers50's top 50 most influential minds. He was also the host and co-executive of the television series “Crowd Control,” a National Geographic program about human behavior that aired in more than 10 countries. He also hosts a popular master class on sales and persuasion. He has written for several notable publications, including Fast Company, The Sunday Telegraph, The New York Times, Harvard Business Review, The Atlantic, Slate, and Wired. He is the author of seven books, the latest being The Power of Regret: How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward. His books cover topics like business, work, creativity, and behavior. They have won multiple awards, have been translated into 42 languages, and have sold millions of copies around the world.  Connect with Daniel: Website: https://www.danpink.com/  Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielpink/  Twitter: https://twitter.com/DanielPink Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/danielpink/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/danielhpink Sponsored by: OpenPhone - Get 20% off 6 months at https://www.openphone.com/PROFITING   Shopify - Sign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial period at https://www.youngandprofiting.co/shopify  Airbnb - Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at https://www.airbnb.com/host  Rocket Money - Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to https://www.rocketmoney.com/profiting  Indeed - Get a $75 job credit at https://www.indeed.com/profiting      Resources Mentioned: YAP episode #50: https://podcasts.apple.com/ph/podcast/young-and-profiting-yap-with-hala-taha/id1368888880?i=1000459718753  Daniel's Website: https://www.danpink.com/    Daniel's Book, The Power of Regret: https://www.danpink.com/the-power-of-regret/   Top Tools and Products of the Month: https://youngandprofiting.com/deals/  More About Young and Profiting Download Transcripts - youngandprofiting.com Get Sponsorship Deals - youngandprofiting.com/sponsorships Leave a Review -  ratethispodcast.com/yap Watch Videos - youtube.com/c/YoungandProfiting   Follow Hala Taha LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Instagram - instagram.com/yapwithhala/ TikTok - tiktok.com/@yapwithhala Twitter - twitter.com/yapwithhala   Learn more about YAP Media's Services - yapmedia.io/

What if your internal conflicts are the very signals pointing you toward personal growth and success? Join me as I sit down with Kelli Thompson, a dynamic keynote speaker and women's leadership coach, to discuss her latest book, Closing the Confidence Gap. This episode promises to equip you with strategies for overcoming societal "shoulds" and identifying the barriers that hinder your confidence, especially for women balancing an unpaid workload alongside professional responsibilities. Together, we unpack the intricacies of people-pleasing tendencies in leadership and the pitfalls of overcommitment and perfectionism. Through introspective exercises, you'll learn how to align your commitments with your values, define what "good enough" means, and delegate tasks that don't align with your strengths. Explore the powerful intersection of empathy, confidence, and negotiation as we navigate the art of salary discussions. Kelli and I discuss the importance of self-compassion as a means to bolster confidence and overcome internal doubts. Kelli also shares actionable advice on identifying personal and organizational values and how operationalizing these values creates an engaging work environment. Through thought-provoking discussions, this episode invites you to transform reflection into action, empowering you to lead with authenticity and confidence. What You'll Learn: • Overcoming internal conflicts and building self-trust • The impact of societal pressures on women's confidence • Strategies for aligning commitments with personal values • Navigating overcommitment and perfectionism • The art of empathetic and confident salary negotiation Podcast Timestamps: (00:00) - From Aspiring TV Meteorologist to Top Women's Leadership Coach (11:00) - Identifying and Overcoming Internal Conflict (22:43) - Navigating People-Pleasing in Leadership (27:13) - Identifying and Defining Your Values (32:21) - The Purpose and Power in Implementing Organizational Values (45:11) - Empathy, Confidence, and Salary Negotiation More of Kelli: Kelli Thompson is an award-winning leadership coach, keynote speaker, and author of Closing the Confidence Gap: Boost Your Peace, Your Potential & Your Paycheck, which was named a "Must Read" by the Next Big Idea Club, curated by Malcolm Gladwell, Daniel Pink, Adam Grant, and Susan Cain. With over 10 years of experience in financial services and technology, Kelli has coached and trained thousands of women leaders to lead with clarity and confidence through her compassionate yet no-nonsense approach. Her thought leadership has been featured in top publications like Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Forbes, and Business Insider. Holding an MBA and recognized for her impactful programs, Kelli is a sought-after speaker known for delivering practical, insightful strategies. Fun fact: she's also a trained storm spotter and aspiring storm chaser. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelliraethompson/  Mentions: Closing the Confidence Gap: Boost Your Peace, Your Potential, and Your Paycheck by Kelli Thompson The Waymakers: Clearing the Path to Workplace Equity with Competence and Confidence by Tara Jaye Frank Key Topics Discussed: Positive Leadership, Empowerment, Women, Women's Leadership, Self-Confidence, Values, Self-Trust, Minimizing Resentment, Avoiding Overcommitment, The Perils of Perfectionism, Organizational Values, Salary Negotiation, Empathy, Self-Compassion, Personal Growth, Introspection, The Power of Delegating, Behavioral-Based Interviewing, CEO Success More of Do Good to Lead Well: Website: https://craigdowden.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/craigdowden/

In this episode of Money Tales, we sit down with bestselling author, Daniel Pink, who shares the bold decisions that transformed his life and career. At a pivotal moment in his early 30s, Dan made the choice to leave his job as a political speechwriter to pursue his passion for writing. His leap of faith wasn't blind. With his wife's support, careful planning, and a frugal mindset, Dan charted a rational path through uncertainty, balancing existential and financial risks. Dan is the author of five New York Times bestsellers, including his latest, The Power of Regret: How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward. His other books include the New York Times bestsellers When and A Whole New Mind — as well as the #1 New York Times bestsellers Drive and To Sell is Human. Dan's books have won multiple awards, have been translated into 46 languages, and have sold millions of copies around the world. He lives in Washington, DC, with his family.

Cet épisode est rendu possible grâce à ma nouvelle formation "Reprenez le contrôle de votre temps : faites plus en moins de temps". Et bénéficiez de -25% jusqu'au 10 février avec le temps TEMPS25N'attendez plus !Dans ce nouvel épisode du Book Club, je partage avec vous mon choix de lecture pour bien démarrer l'année : When de Daniel Pink.Un livre fascinant qui explore la science du timing et de notre rapport au temps. J'analyse comment nos rythmes biologiques influencent nos performances et nos décisions au quotidien. J'explore les découvertes clés de l'auteur, comme l'importance de connaître son propre chronotype (matinal ou nocturne) pour optimiser son organisation et son bien-être.Je partage également des exemples concrets et des anecdotes personnelles pour illustrer comment appliquer ces principes dans notre vie de tous les jours. Que ce soit pour planifier une réunion cruciale, amorcer un projet ambitieux, ou simplement vivre en accord avec son rythme naturel, cet épisode offre des pistes pour reprendre le contrôle de son temps. Une invitation à démarrer l'année avec clarté, énergie et détermination !Notes et références de l'épisode :Pour retrouver le livre : When : The scientific secrets of perfect timing de Daniel Pink(lien affilié Fnac)Pour retrouver replay du Grand Live 2025 : Mon guide ultime pour atteindre vos objectifs : C'est par ici 1. Faites vous coacher par moi !DEMIAN, un concentré de 10 ans d'expérience d'entrepreneur. Les formations DEMIAN vous apportent des outils et méthodes concrètes pour développer votre projet professionnel.Il s'agit d'un concentré maximal de valeur et d'expérience pour qu'en quelques heures vous gagniez l'équivalent d'années de travail.2. La NewsLa News du vendredi est une mini newsletter pour vous nourrir en plus du podcast. C'est une newsletter très courte, à lire en 5mn top chrono de ce qui m'a marqué dans les dernières semaines : livres à lire, réflexions, applis à télécharger, citations, films ou documentaires à voir etc. Pour la recevoir, il n'y a qu'à s'abonner à la newsletter sur mon site !3. Des conseils concrets sur ma chaîne YouTubeEnvie de lancer votre propre podcast ? De bénéficier de conseils sur quel matériel utiliser ? Ma nouvelle chaîne YouTube est faite pour vous !4.Contactez-moi ! Si le podcast vous plaît, le meilleur moyen de me le dire, ou de me faire vos feed-backs (et ce qui m'aide le plus à le faire connaître) c'est simplement de laisser un avis 5 étoiles ou un commentaire sur l'application iTunes. Ça m'aide vraiment, alors n'hésitez pas :)Pour me poser des questions ou suivre mes tribulations c'est par ici :Sur Instagram @paulinelaigneauSur LinkedIn @pauline laigneauSur YouTube Pauline LaigneauVous pouvez consulter notre politique de confidentialité sur https://art19.com/privacy ainsi que la notice de confidentialité de la Californie sur https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

What drives human motivation? For years, the answer seemed simple: rewards. Dangle the right carrot — a bonus, stock options, "Employee of the Month" certificate — and people will perform. But Daniel Pink's 2009 bestseller "Drive" flipped this idea on its head. Drawing on decades of scientific research, Dan revealed that our deepest motivations come from within: the innate drive for autonomy, mastery, and purpose. Now, 15 years after "Drive" revolutionized our understanding of motivation, Dan joins us to discuss how this science has evolved and what it means for anyone trying to motivate themselves or others in today's rapidly changing world.

Daniel Pink, the author of five New York Times bestselling books including Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us and To Sell is Human: The Surprising Truth About Moving Others, joins Scott to discuss regret, human motivation, and his Washington Post column, “Why Not?” Follow Dan, @DanielPink. Subscribe to No Mercy / No Malice Buy "The Algebra of Wealth," out now. Follow the podcast across socials @profgpod: Instagram Threads X Reddit Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Most refrigerators come with a light inside. It goes on when you open the door. It's very helpful. So why doesn't the freezer have a light too? This episode begins with the interesting explanation. https://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2012/07/why-is-there-a-light-in-the-refrigerator-and-not-the-freezer/  Have you ever heard someone say they have no regrets? They're lying. We all have regrets and the pain they cause is all too real. However, the pain of regret can be extremely helpful in making course correction as you move forward. If you have some lingering regrets, listen to my guest - bestselling author Daniel Pink. He has explored the world of regret, and he joins me to explain the different kinds of regrets we all feel and what those regrets are telling you. Daniel is author of the book The Power of Regret: How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward (https://amzn.to/33HJhfY). When someone comes up with an amazingly brilliant idea, chances are that person came up with a lot of little ideas first. That's just one of the interesting insights you'll hear from my guest Anthony Fredricks, a nationally recognized educator and author of the book, From Fizzle to Sizzle: The Hidden Forces Crushing Your Creativity and How You Can Overcome Them (https://amzn.to/3u0AMY8). Listen as he explains how great ideas originate and how we are all a lot more creative than we probably think. On the topic of poultry (chicken or turkey), if you randomly ask people – “White meat or dark meat?” – most people prefer white meat. At least that is true in the U.S. Listen as I explain the reason why and reveal why you might want to give dark meat another try. http://www.slate.com/articles/life/food/2011/01/the_dark_side_of_the_bird.html Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices