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Continuing our new series on artificial intelligence, Christian Simonds and Henry Birkbeck discuss what the use of AI in film and television. AI features in every stage of production – from pre-production, through production, to post-production – and reliance on AI will continue to increase as it evolves. The discussion centers around the legalities that management in the industry should be aware of, as well as the recurring questions and issues raised by clients in both the UK and U.S. ----more---- Transcript: Intro: Hello, and welcome to Tech Law Talks, a podcast brought to you by Reed Smith's Emerging Technologies group. In each episode of this podcast, we will discuss cutting edge issues on technology, data, and the law. We will provide practical observations on a wide variety of technology and data topics to give you quick and actionable tips to address the issues you are dealing with every day. Henry: Welcome to our new series on AI. Over the coming months, we will explore the key challenges and opportunities within the rapidly evolving AI landscape. Today, we will focus on AI in film and TV. My name is Henry Birkbeck. I'm a senior associate in the London office at Reed Smith, and I'm speaking today with Christian Simonds, who is a partner in the New York office. Christian and I have previously written an article on AI in the film and TV space, and there's probably quite a lot to mention and not a huge amount of time to cover it. But I guess I'll start maybe Christian just by asking, you know, have you seen recurring themes coming up with clients asking about AI in the film and TV space so far? Christian: Yeah, I think in terms of, you know, the film and TV industry as a whole, it's kind of always been kind of at the forefront of technology, particularly in terms of how to properly utilize it. Just not only from a budgetary perspective, but also from a creative perspective, right? And obviously, you know, AI has been such a hot topic, particularly with respect to the guilds during the strikes of 2023. So there is a lot to kind of unpack in terms of how it's being integrated into film and TV production. You know, I think the general consensus is that about two thirds of every budget for a AV project in the kind of the film and TV space is kind of made up of labor. Right. And particularly now in relation to kind of the economy and where it is, there's been a heightened scrutiny of, of each line item in a, in a particular budget. And, and, and as a result, it's kind of driven the need or reliance on AI as a potential solution to mitigating certain costs, labor costs. And again, I know it's not ideal from an individual employment perspective, but from an overall budget perspective, it is something that I see the studios and production companies on the independent level embracing as it relates to trying to drive down costs of a particular budget it kind of, AI kind of plays into each stage of production on, it plays into development, pre-production, production, and post. And when you're navigating that as it relates to the legalities of how it's used, yeah, there are certain issues that come into play vis-a-vis what the guilds have agreed to kind of in their most recent ratification at the end of the strikes. And how to ensure that you're adhering to what those requirements are, at least aware of what they are. In addition to that, just from a copyright perspective and other considerations in terms of how AI is used in that kind of development stage. So there's kind of a lot to unpack within kind of the lifespan of a production as it relates to AI and how it's been used. And the reality is it's going to be used and it's going to continue to evolve and be, be relied on to a greater degree, particularly with respect to certain elements of the production process on the, on, on the VFX side in particular, obviously certainly in, in, in the development stage and, and, and the editing stage. And there's, there's certain things that, that it really has a, a, a tremendous value from a timing perspective, a cut down and production timing and, and, and, and other elements that I think will, will benefit the production as a whole. But yeah in terms of legalities yeah there's a lot to kind of unpack there I'm happy to touch on each of those in the time that we have. Henry: Well I think the first one which you did touch on obviously is that the guild strikes of 2023 and clients and and those those people in the industry in the US were probably a lot closer to it but for the benefit of those of us that weren't in the US do you do you want to give a very quick recap of kind of where where they ended up? Christian: Absolutely. Yeah. In terms of the Screen Actors Guild, SAG, there are really four main components to how they regulate artificial intelligence. So you've got your employment-based digital replica, which is basically a replication of a performer's employment or participation in the production. So it's literally taking the performer himself and portraying him in a scene that they didn't actually shoot or a performance that they didn't actually shoot. A good example is if you see in a movie someone talking to themselves. That second digital replication is employment-based digital replica. Right. What does that mean in terms of what you need to do vis-a-vis SAG? It means you need to get mandatory consent from the performers when you're going to do that. So it needs to be disclosed at the outset, either from the performer himself or if the performer is no longer around, you need to get consent from an authorized representative from his estate or the union itself. The contracts need to be reasonably specific as to the description of how it's going to be used. And if you're going to use it outside of the project, i.e. kind of that beyond a kind of one picture license, you're going to need additional consent to do that. And, you know, they need to be, the performers will need to be compensated, you know, for that digital creation as though it was themselves, right? So you need to take into consideration that residuals obviously Obviously, we'll need to be paid on whatever amounts are paid in connection with that. And then you've got independently created digital replica, which is basically using digital replicas created kind of using materials that the performer has provided in a scene that they didn't actually shoot. Right. So you're not actually using a previous performance in the movie itself, but you're like literally digitally replicating the performer in a scene that he didn't otherwise participate in. So again, you need to consent from the performer when you do that. You need to be reasonably specific in terms of how you're describing that use in the contract. Again, obviously, he's entitled to compensation for that use. And obviously, that compensation is entitled to payment of fringes. Henry: Has this kind of been met with or met positively, I guess, in the industry since? Because I know that in 2023, you know, there was a big kind of reputational issue around AI and there was a lot of speculation about whether these, you know, protecting the performer's rights, was this being overblown a little bit? Or do you think, you know, are people comfortable with where they landed? Christian: I think with respect to those two elements, I think yes, right? I think that the general consensus is they do adequately protect the actors when you're exploring those types of digital replica usages. I think the real wildcard here or the area of real concern is around generative AI, right? So basically, taking data, materials, prior performances, facial expressions, their image likeness, and actually creating new content from that material from an actor. I think that's really where we start to enter into an area where people aren't necessarily comfortable, particularly on the talent side. And again, the guild is clear that if you're going to do that, you need to get consent from the actor, right? So if you're going to use his image or likeness or prior performances to kind of feed a gen AI tool to create a new piece of content from those materials, you're going to need consent from that actor. You got to notify the union when you're going to do such a thing, you know, and the compensation around that usage is usually specifically negotiated with the talent themselves. And you basically need to continue to keep that talent informed how those materials are being used vis-a-vis the gen AI. So that really is a touchy area. I mean, I think a lot of people are familiar with what happened with Scarlett Johansson when she basically said that her voice was being utilized for purposes of chat GPT. Recently, they claimed that they had used an actress's voice that they had brought in that sounds similar to hers, but it wasn't her voice. I mean, so it just shows you the heightened sensitivity on the talent side in terms of of how their, you know, image like this voice is being used within the gen AI space. So yeah, there is, there's a lot of sensitivities around that usage. Henry: Okay. So it's interesting that there's an ongoing obligation as well, which I guess makes sense, but you know, it's a burden, I guess, on the production company. And the other question I had relating to guilds was, was the writers guild. And I think the other thing that seemed to make the headlines internationally was about how particularly large language models and generative AI tools can be used for screenwriting and at what point. There's always a question with AI and copyright and ownership. And I was wondering if you could speak a little bit on where they landed in terms of who, if anyone, can own a script that has been written by an AI tool. Christian: You know, within the US, the copyright law is clear in the sense of, you know, anything that's gen AI created is not copyrightable, right? And if you are utilizing elements of materials that were gen AI created in your copyrightable material, you have to disclose what those materials are, and those materials will not be protected within the overall piece of IP, right? So you could copyright the script, but if certain elements of it were pulled from gen AI sources, those elements of your script will not be protectable. So the copyright law is fairly clear on that. In terms of the WGA and how they're trying to protect their writers from being replaced by AI, it's saying, hey, obviously with respect to signatory companies, you have to be clear that... gen AI produced material will not be considered kind of literary material under the WGA, right? So what does that mean? So if you can't give an AI generated screenplay to a writer and say, hey, go rewrite this, and you potentially won't be entitled to separate rights because you're writing something that's based on underlying materials, WGA says absolutely not. We're basically going to exclude that gen AI-created screenplay or treatment or Bible from the kind of separated rights discussion and say, Hey, that writer that contributes those first writing services, you know, for purposes of taking that gen AI material and, you know, either polishing or rewriting it or, or, or developing further into the screenplay, that will be considered the first step of the writing process. And that writer will be the writer that will be entitled to the writing credits around the material moving forward. So yeah it's almost like it's fine for studios to to provide gen AI materials for purposes of writers developing a screenplay or or assisting them with their writing services and again if they're going to do that they need to fully disclose that to the writer when they're doing it but those materials will basically be excluded from kind of the chain right when the WGA is considering what makes up the overall literary material that's going to be considered for purposes of writing credits residuals before etc. And I think again you know it's it's a good place to land for writers it doesn't necessarily solve the AI issue as a whole because it's still going to be utilized for purposes of coming up with ideas potentially on the studio side because it's it's something that they can quickly do and and also it has added benefits in terms of saying, hey. It can analyze a screenplay or it can analyze an idea and say, hey, here's the likelihood of the success of this idea or screenplay based on, you know, historics of screenplays like it in the past. Or, hey, I think the second chapter of this story should be changed this way because it's going to be better received because of X, Y, or Z, right? I think that tool will be beneficial. So it's not totally carving out the usage of AI as it relates to the development of a literary material. And I think it could be utilized in a positive way, which is great. I just don't think it will ever be able to fully remove physical writers from the process. I think the WGA did a sufficient job ensuring that. Henry: Yeah. It's interesting because obviously we're talking mostly about the US here, but I think most other markets in the film and TV industry were watching very closely what happened in 2023. And certainly in the UK, there's kind of been largely a following suit. You know, we haven't had the same kind of high profile developments, but PACT, which is the Producers Alliance in the UK, has since issued guidance on AI and the use of AI in film and TV productions. And, you know, they don't. They kind of stop short of taking a hard stance on anything, but they do talk about being very mindful and aware of the protection of the rights of all the various people that might be involved and how to integrate AI into production. So I think, I think the US position is, is really the kind of the market leader for this. And, you know, there's, there's a slight nuance in the copyright law is slightly different in the US and the UK and, you know, how AI relates to that. And, and lots of other jurisdictions, of course, there's implications there. But I think so far, the UK market seems to be broadly following what's happening in the states. Christian: It's interesting, too, because the states here are starting to take a position on AI. And there's, at least in New York, there's a few bills that are being considered currently. There's three bills, one of which I think probably has a likelihood of getting passed, which deals with contracts around the creation of digital replicas. And it kind of tracks what SAG has already said. But basically, any contract between an individual and an entity or individual for performance of personal or professional services as it relates to a new performance by digital replication basically is contrary to public policy and will be deemed null and void unless it satisfies three conditions, one of which is the reasonably specific description of the intended use of the digital replica. But it adds like an interesting element, which is that the person who is on the other side, whose performance is potentially being digitally replicated, needs to have been represented by council or a member of a guild, which is interesting, right? So it kind of adds a little, an extra level of protection. And again, this is going to be state specific. So it'll be interesting how this kind of impacts other states or what other states are potentially considering. And then there's two other bills that are currently in place. One is on the advertising side, you know, in connection with disclosing synthetic media as it relates to advertising. But the other one that's interesting, just from a film financing perspective, is that they're taking a position that, you know, productions that spend money on AI digital replication or AI usage might not qualify for the New York tax rebate, which is very interesting. Henry: Oh, really? Wow. Christian: They think that that one won't necessarily pass. Certainly the first one will because it's kind of already in line with what SAG has said. But yeah, that second one, I think, will probably get shelved. But just an interesting one to consider. Henry: Yeah, and it's really kind of, I guess, both of them showing that there is this protection element being added in and trying to... It's almost like holding these AI devices slightly at a distance to stop them kind of... Becoming a source of, I don't want to say evil in the industry, but kind of going too far overstepping the mark. Christian: Absolutely. And it's interesting too, because it's almost like, obviously you've got your defined protections within SAG and copyright law, and now obviously what's being considered by legislation. But the reality is a lot of this is being driven just by public policy in terms of the public's rejection of AI to a degree, right? I think people are generally like scared of it right so the knee-jerk reaction is to say no let's continue to promote you know the employment of real people right? Henry: Yeah. Christian: I think you know and and I think this also plays into how AI is used you know in films and again you know i think it's going to evolve to a point where it'll be tough to distinguish between AI and real right but you know, a good example being Irishman or some other films that have used significant AI to basically de-age people, you know, and people see it and like, that looks ridiculous, right? Like, I think there's a general knee-jerk reaction to doing it, right? And whether that changes over time based on how the AI technology evolves. Particularly from a visual perspective is TBD. But but yeah I think a lot of it is driven by public perception of AI right. Henry: Yeah yeah and I think you know it is interesting what you were saying before and we've seen this in the UK as well is that initially it was like okay well how is this gonna affect producers and you know and there's kind of efficiencies there but actually we're seeing studios and commissioners really embrace it and and look for ways to cut the cost of production as well and and you know i think it's It's just going to, like you say, it's going to touch basically every aspect of film and TV production and streamline things. Christian: Yeah, I think there are, I mean, I think there are real positives in terms of how it can be integrated into the production process. I know we touched on a few, but, you know, also like dubbing, right, localization of content and, you know, basically extending the reach of a piece of AV IP, right? So if you can do it in a way where it looks natural, because I know there's always kind of been a visceral reaction to seeing something that is dubbed really poorly, but if it can evolve to a point where it's almost seamless, it may have a better impact in terms of the breach of content. Again, I think there are different schools there in terms of whether investing in that makes sense in certain places or if it's just easier just to dub it and release it and how much of an impact it's actually having. But I do think in certain jurisdictions or certain areas, a seamless localization could have value to the reach of a particular piece of AV IP. Henry: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it could kind of move things geographically as well. I know, in the UK, we have this a lot where, you know, the cost of post production is a lot cheaper in countries close to the UK. And so as a result of that, you quite often see productions that will be, you know, 80% of it will be of the money will be spent in the UK. And actually, the final 20%, which, you know, often doesn't qualify for the tax credit over here anyway, gets outsourced to somewhere in Europe, where it is much cheaper to have the post production be carried out remotely, or even to Canada, or somewhere where there's a kind of better incentive package. And actually, if you could streamline that whole process, and you've got, you know, a company that or an AI tool that can, you know, do all the grading and all this kind of stuff that was cutting and these previously quite labor intensive activities, then there's no reason why you couldn't bring a lot of that production cost back on shore and reduce it. So it may kind of move where people are located in the market as well. Christian: Yeah, I think, you know, and it's not necessarily, you know, solely issue for, you know, scripted projects. You know, I think also in the US, it's even kind of led into the doc space, right? So I know, you know, the APA in the US, which is the Archival Producers Alliance, which basically is a document variance, you know, basically said as well, like, hey, just be careful how you use AI in this space, even though it's not, you know, governed by a auild necessarily, right? Like still, or how it's used in the non-scripted space, you know, it doesn't really have guild coverage depending on what it is. They're at least saying, hey, like, just be careful how you use it because, you know, what we're doing, particularly in terms of how we're depicting history or events, historical events or things that have happened, you know, AI, you don't want to, you don't want to change it to a point where you're basically changing the perception of history, right? Or generating things that are so AI oblivious to the realities of what actually happened, right? Like you might potentially, it might have a negative effect. And it's funny, it's more of like an ethical line that documentarians are trying just to be mindful of as it's kind of integrated into that space as well. Because look, when you don't have kind of primary source material to utilize for purposes of trying to depict something in a documentary, Yeah, it may be easy to duplicate it using AI, right? Generated by AI. But at the same time, that may have implications that you might not have thought about, which is, you know, how is this telling a story that might not actually be accurate to the underlying facts? Henry: I mean, I think that's a pretty good kind of starting point. Obviously, these are issues and discussion points that have a lot of depth to them and have been discussed a lot in the industry internationally already. And we're kind of in a point now where it's like, let's wait and see how this stuff shakes out in practice. And certainly, as we've discussed, the US has kind in a lot of areas that there is now a bit of a direction. So it'll be interesting to see how things unfold. And I know for the most part in the UK, the production industry sort of follows what's happening in the states. And in respect of international productions, they have to kind of be aligned to a degree. So it will be really interesting to see how this develops in the coming months and years. Christian: Yeah, for sure. And like Luke said in the beginning, there is no question that it is a part of the filmmaking process and will continue to be so at an ever-increasing degree. So it's kind of unavoidable. And I truly think it could be utilized in a way that's beneficial to filmmaking, both from a budgetary perspective, but also like, hey, if you can reallocate a bunch of the spend from what otherwise was labor-intensive, time-consuming elements of production, re-allocate that to talent or other things, elements of the process that can compensate certain individuals in a way that they weren't before. I think that can be beneficial as well. And I think, you know, there will be a point where, you know, it'll really help independent filmmaking in particular, right? Because that always is, budgetary constraints are always paramount in that space. And if you can do things that otherwise cost a ton of money previously for cents on the dollar using AI, moving forward to the extent it kind of evolves quality wise, I think you'll see an uptick in really quality, you know, independent filmmaking.. Again, there's never going to be a universe, in my opinion, that totally circumvents the utilization of real people, but AI can certainly be utilized in a beneficial way to help the process. Henry: Great. Thanks very much, Christian. And thanks everyone for listening. Tune in for the next episode on our series on AI. Outro: Tech Law Talks is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. For more information about Reed Smith's Emerging Technologies practice, please email techlawtalks@reedsmith.com. You can find our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts. Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers. All rights reserved. Transcript is auto-generated.

Did you know that 70% of America's population claims to believe in God, and identifies as some sort of Christian in faith? In reality though, the number of people who claim to understand what it means to personally Know God is significantly smaller. Unfortunately, so many people misunderstand what it means to be a Christian: They don't know the joy and fulfillment of personally knowing God and having a real relationship with Him. Perhaps you are a person who believes in God but haven't been experiencing the joy of truly knowing God. Perhaps you grew up around religion but never went deeper. Perhaps you spent years going to church, and even serving in ministries, but the church left you burned and hurt, wishing you hadn't opened yourself up to those moments of vulnerability. Whatever your situation, God wants you to truly KNOW Him. People make mistakes, and our fallen, broken world can scar us, but none of these things should stop us from living in complete fullness and joy in knowing our God, our Creator, our Savior and Friend. Watch this talk as Pastor Rich teaches us how to continue seeking a real relationship with a God Who fully knows us in a world that tries to break us.

Signs of being lukewarmTypically, those who might be considered lukewarm Christians have some following characteristics. For a longer list, go to What are some of the signs of being a lukewarm Christian? They live a different life on Sunday than they do the rest of the week Their friends don't know they are Christian They would rather be accepted socially than reveal their Christian faith They don't read the Bible very much They don't pray very much or only pray to God during difficult times. They don't share your faith very often, if at all They only go to church for social reasons, if at all.Being a real Christian means that we take the things of God seriously and we seek to follow Christ and his teachings. Jesus wants us to deny ourselves and follow him.What does Jesus require? Matthew 10:38, “And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.” Matthew 16:24, Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.” Luke 14:27–28, “Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 “For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?” John 13:35, “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus gave us the eight Beatitudes, eight attitudes or dispositions that should characterise every follower of Christ, of whom they are a portrait. In this meditation we consider how: The Beatitudes should characterise every Christian They contrast notably with the ways of the world If we live them well […]

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus gave us the eight Beatitudes, eight attitudes or dispositions that should characterise every follower of Christ, of whom they are a portrait. In this meditation we consider how: The Beatitudes should characterise every Christian They contrast notably with the ways of the world If we live them well […]

Welcome to season 2!  In this episode, Christian Haynes ’20 speaks with Schone Malliet ’74 about his dynamic career and the many ways that he strives to foster diversity, equity, access and inclusion for all. Interview originally recorded on July 30, 2020.  Due to the ongoing effects of the pandemic, all interviews in season 2 are recorded remotely. --- Transcript Schone: The question that I have now: is diversity, equity and inclusion, a committee or is it a culture? Is it something that you talk about around a table or it's something that is a way of life? I think that it's both. It starts with the talking around the table, but it needs to be the way things are, not something that you do. Maura: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. Maura: Welcome to season two. In this episode, we hear from Schone Malliet from the class of 1974. Schone's career path will keep you on your toes, although he claims that his life isn't movie material. After growing up in the South Bronx, he came to Holy Cross in the early '70s and successfully walked on the varsity basketball team. Upon graduation, he entered the Marine Corps and became one of its first black jet pilots. From there, he got his MBA and worked as a top executive in the technology and banking industries. Today, he combines this wealth of experience with his passion for making a difference in people's lives. Maura: Christian Haynes from the class of 2020 speaks with Schone about his life, career and his current work as the CEO of Winter4Kids, a nonprofit organization whose mission is to make a difference in the lives of youth through winter activities. As his first intern, Christian was able to witness Schone's hard work up close. Filled with thoughtful insights around diversity, equity, access and inclusion, their conversation highlights the many ways that we can all make a difference in our communities and the wider world. Christian: What's good everybody? Welcome to the Holy Cross Mission-Driven podcast. I'm Christian Haynes, class of 2020, which means, yes, I'm officially an alum and hopefully in five years, I'll be on the other end of this. But today, I'm the interviewer and my guest today, great man, a man that can light up the room with his energy and charisma, a man that's been giving me opportunities to become a better person from the moment I met him.... and I'm glad to call him a mentor, Mr. Schone Malliet. Schone: How are you doing Christian? I am really glad to be here. I'm not sure who you're describing there, but when I find him, I'll make sure I connect the two of you, okay? Christian: I actually compared you to Magic Johnson, by the energy you bring. Schone: Well, that's good because he got his game from me and everything he does on the court was because of all the things I hoped to be. No. Thank you though. Christian: He definitely did. How's everything though? Schone: Actually, it's pretty good. Well, it's mixed. With everything going on with CV-19, our society and the upheaval that's going on, it's mixed. I go through a day that has highs and has lows and a lot of thoughtful moments. All in all, its life, right? It’s not always good, it’s not always bad, it’s just hard. I think it’s making me better and hopefully its making all of us better. Christian: Yeah. I guess it’s all just about adjusting to these events. I guess that's the best we can do. The most recent things that we've been doing to adjust and by “we” I mean the Holy Cross community, the ALANA talks we have every two Saturdays, that you’re a part of. I think that you started right? You start that? Schone: We started that as a happy hour and it became talks. I think it's been an awesome way for alumni and students... A safe place to talk about the things and share what we feel, what we're going through and hopefully gain somethings. I gain insight from everybody there, especially the students and recent alumni. You guys are my heroes because I never stop learning, and I do learn a lot from all of you. Christian: Yeah, so with these alumni talks, one of the biggest topics is the social injustice issues that we face both on the Holy Cross campus and outside of it as well, around the world. And one thing that a lot of students say now, or a lot of alumni say now is that nothing has changed from when they were in school, whether it's '70s, '80s, '90s, early 2000s. A lot of things have stayed the same when it came to these social injustice issues, these race wars almost. How do you feel about that? Do you feel the same? You feel as if things have changed or things have stayed the same? Schone: Wow. I was listening to something about the athletic director, I think for one of the conferences and I think it was a conference of HBCU's and he was talking about this issue of integration versus assimilation. I believe what's happened and is still happening today is, while I've been able to evolve from us taking over Fenwick when I was there into which on surfaces, it's been a very good and blessed career, that I've been resensitised to some of the challenges that I went through in my career, whether they were explicit or implicit racism or the -isms that things did not really change. And I think I let my success lure me into believing that it was different. And talking to students, talking to my fellow alumni, revisiting my life as it has been and how it is today, the issue of being impacted socially, emotionally, because of the color of my skin and even how I live is still there. Schone: So, I have to have the talk right? With my son who's 21 years old about, listen get stopped, here's what you do, don't get stopped and then even to have to be sensitive to how, what, when and where are my surroundings, has let me know that this is still real. And so you asked about how do I feel about that, I'm feeling a lot of stuff but I'm also hopeful. And I'm hopeful because in this time which is different to George Floyd thing, the Breonna issue, all of these things now have been front and center for everybody. And so I don't feel that I am, we are as Black people are going forth by ourselves. I think that the whole of society has been brought into the experience. Christian: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. Seeing them on allies today. Many protests have been happening, even outside of the country which is kind of surprising for me. I always thought this was a American thing, but there are a lot of people of color facing the same struggles outside of this country. So it is great to have those allies all around the world. We're going to backtrack here a bit and go back to 1970s, South Bronx. When I say that, what's the first thing that popped up in your mind? Schone: I'm a projects kid right? 1710 Lafayette Avenue. Kemba Walker came from the same project which is again where my basketball skills must have went to because I didn't have any. And I look back at the South Bronx as not something bad, it was great where I grew up, it was alive. Of course as I compare it to now and we look at it, it looks different in terms of equity and access and those things but I am a product of everything that I went through growing up, raised by a single female and her having the insight to put me in Catholic schools, to be prepared for where I am today. I love my upbringing, I love everything about it. I wouldn't change it, I didn't know what I didn't have which is kind of a blessing because everything I felt that I went through was what I was supposed to go through. Christian: Rice was located in Manhattan? Rice High School? Schone: 124th Street and Lenox Avenue, in the heart of Harlem- Christian: Yeah, right in Harlem. So what was that like? A private school in Harlem? Schone: Well, first of all, at the time there were no high schools in Harlem. The student body was probably all of, was is it about 400 or 600? And was majority White in Harlem and during the time I went to school there, was the riots of the '60s right? And Rice was a block away from any transportation, buses and trains that I had to take two buses and two trains to get to school. None of the kids who went to school there ever subjected to anything negative. Rice was a great school, Felipe Lopez, Kemba Walker came out with some great basketball players but again that Catholic education plays a role in preparing me for today and Rice High School, it's interesting because I didn't play basketball in high school because I'd tell everybody that Rice High School, the managers could start at any other high school in New York City which is true because I was a manager but I got to play up at Holy Cross so I guess it was unique and it's a shame that it went out of... It's been sold and it's now a school for Harlem Children's Zone. A good legacy. Christian: And you said that Rice prepared you for today, how did it prepare you for Holy Cross? Schone: I think the group of individuals that were kind of the core... this group of individuals helped me create a voice and we started an organization called the Coalition of Catholic High School Students in New York and this is before cellphones and before computers and we not only were activists but it was a social organization as well and I think again it gave me the opportunity to find my own voice. And I probably learned to talk too much but I think that came from my grandfather and all of that and there are people who talk about me and my family, my father's side because my grandfather was a foreign editor on EMCM News. He also was a Black publisher but people in Harlem says oh, you're that Malliet family. All of you guys you could talk, so don't blame it on me, blame it on my heritage. Christian: That's dope. Sometimes I wonder for myself, how did I end up in Holy Cross coming from Brooklyn. So what was it like, the private institution you were part of, the Catholic culture that you were part of that put you onto Holy Cross or maybe a friend? What led you to stepping on the hill? Schone: I picked it out of a hat. I picked Holy Cross out of a hat and let me explain that. So, my mother who didn't have the high school education... So college was not within a vision of my mother or myself and during the time, everybody talks about the fraternity which was the class of '60 that came in '72 but Father Brooks kept recruiting. And part of the response to the riots of '68, '69 were that schools started to proactively recruit Black students and they actually used the PSAT's right? No, I guess that Merit Scholarship Qualifying Test, the practice test as screeners. So they not only screen African American students but they started to proactively set out invitations to apply. And they sent them to guidance counselor, and my guidance counselor pulled my mother in the school, said bring your mom into school and I said for what, I didn't do anything wrong and he said no just bring her in and I brought her in and he says listen, I want to talk to you about college's for Schone and she said he's not going to college. There's no money, there's no... and she didn't understand. Schone: He said no, I have his applications here, these schools he can get into and he should apply and we applied and there were some interesting schools, Holy Cross was one, the Merchant Marine Academy was another one, UCLA, Slippery Rock State Teachers College, John Hopkins, don't ask me why those schools. I picked Holy Cross out of a hat, didn't understand why, I'd never visited the campus and showed up there the first time and had not a clue of what I was doing and why I was there. I believe not in karma but spirituality that I believe in a higher power and a lot of things in my life, I probably would not have chosen on my own but I'm sure that I was guided and that was one of the best things that ever happened to me. Christian: Did you really pick it out of a hat? Schone: Yes, I really did pick it out of a hat- Christian: I mean, imagine you really having a bunch of papers in a hat. That's crazy, I mean I guess it is fate- Schone: My life has been interesting and you're going to laugh at this, I'm sure [inaudible 00:15:50] that when you look at what I've done in my life, like Holy Cross right? And the Marine Corps as a pilot and Technology's CEO and Pepperdine MBA and banking and running Winter4Kids, it looks like a great story right? It looks like an awesome movie, it's not movie material. There was no plan for those things. So I tell people all the time, I ended up doing all of that because I didn't know I wasn't supposed to and again I go back to, that I've prepared when the opportunities came along but the preparation went not only to Holy Cross, the institution but all the people in my class and who were ahead of me, I mean Ted and Nina Wells, to Malcolm and all the people that played basketball with, from Stan to RL, Rod and all of these individuals, even though I was abused by most of them. Schone: Not only abused in that social setting but prepared me for the rest of the world and when I think about Holy Cross, that critical thinking component is really the most valuable thing that I've ever been able to learn and integrate within my life and internalize because it goes to problem solving. And if there's anything that I would say that I really enjoy and characterize as what's my talent or thing I like to do, I like problem solving. I enjoy the complexity of it and trying to find which people than others are a solution that works. Christian: That's good to hear because there's a lot of problems in this world, so I guess we all going to come to you then. Schone: No, but I'll be more than happy to talk about it but it's true I mean, there's always a solution right? And it depends on how much time and energy that you can put into it and what the goal is. If the goal is to be right, then it's not going to work. If the goal is to find something that works for everybody, that's great. I think it was Barack Obama who spoke at Harvard’s graduation a couple of years ago, that said, if you expect your life to be something where you're going to get your way a 100% of the time, it's not going to happen. The thing you have to learn is what's important, how to compromise, how to communicate and decide that everybody has to win for something to be sustainable. Christian: That's also kind of boring too. I mean you don't even know what's going to happen. So if you're right all the time, is it really fun? Schone: I wouldn't know because I've never been right all the time and if I find anybody, I'm usually going to walk away from them too because... But I think that, those experiences right? And you know when you're interning here, the way that we work is, how do we figure out what's the best way to do something which I think is an inherent skill set that Holy Cross is really, really good at no matter what your major and giving you those kind of tools. Christian: Yeah, one thing I actually noticed at the office there, once you have the kids, something that we do especially junior year, senior year, a lot of collaborations, a lot of team work and it's similar to what you just said, trying to find the best solution to the problem given to us. And although I dreaded it at the time, working with other people and meeting them at 11 o'clock at Cool Beans, all that stuff, staying up until 4 o'clock, you know that. All that good stuff, it definitely works in the long run and seeing that from you and seeing that at Winter4Kids, in a business setting I can see that it's definitely a tool that I'll definitely carry for the rest of my life. Christian: But how were you as a student? Not just as a student but as a person at Holy Cross, on campus. Where you like some of the people I've interviewed before? Just partying all the time, I'm not going to mention any names but maybe you know who I'm talking about. Partying all the time, stuff like that. Where you a studious student or you were just that person that went about your business and wanted to graduate right away? Schone: Can I plead the fifth? Because it's good that my parents who are in heaven now, because I don't think they want to hear this. Going to college was a whole brand new experience for me because I had no plan for it. So I didn't know what to do when I got there, right? I was a studious, actually I don't think I knew how to study right? So I guess the best I was capable of doing but my capabilities were limited by my own faults right? So I would say that I enjoyed playing basketball, I enjoyed the parties, the social life. I didn't necessarily embrace the opportunity to learn as much as I could, the best way I could and now when I look back on it, learning is more than just the academic side, it was all the things I went through. Deciding to make a basketball team and go and try out was a big deal. I lived on the Black corridor and then moved off that into Beaven as an experimental house. Schone: I had my eyes open to a world I'd never known of and I think the core of my learning was exploration of opportunity and interactions and it drove me to actually sign up to be a Marine officer which most of my colleagues and you know said.... On Commencement day, after I got my degree I had to go get commissioned and I put on my uniform. There are people who said, what the heck is going on here because they had no idea and I believe that. So to answer your question, I was not studious, I definitely enjoyed the social side, I learned a lot. Could I have done better academically? Absolutely. I was so scared to look inside my... The folder you get with your degree to see that there was a paper in it because I wasn't sure that I had made it. Schone: But I will say that there is something that I learned about what college is supposed to be through that and it's truly academic side, but I think that college is the place to experience a lot of things. Matter of fact, has it a negative that shaped the rest of your life? Because had I not learned coping skills, I could not have experienced and be comfortable in a majority world, as I have been. Does that make sense? Christian: Definitely does- Schone: And I think that the coping skills were the personal interactions with individuals. Christian: Yeah, I always say that you learn more outside the classroom than you do in it and I think my GPA outside of classroom had to be full point on. Because- Schone: I wish I had put that on my transcript, because I could have used that but I think that when people say so what you got out of Holy Cross? Which is why I feel so much about what the school gave me as an opportunity. Like everybody, I came out of there with not feeling that the experience was the most positive at the time but when I look at it in context to where my life has been and where it is now, the will learning was so subtle but so life changing and in the context of me still being a Black man. I did not and do not give up what my essence is. I embrace it, I internalize it and I manage it so that I can be heard and understood and felt. Schone: So today as we talk about what we're going through, I'm talking to colleagues of mine who are White. They are calling me and asking me questions and I'm welcoming those conversations because I believe that if they are going to call and be courageous enough to ask the question, their intention is to learn and to be better and if I can give information from my perspective or what I feel or what I think, it gives them another data point for them to now have a choice about how they are going to interact with anyone who is physically different but surely those of us who are Black. Christian: Now after graduation, like you mentioned straight into Marine Corps. Talk to me about that, the decision going into it, your time there and finishing that time. Schone: Most people who go to college have some goal coming out of it. Being a lawyer, being a doctor, I want to go into law enforcement. Remember I had went in with no particular goal. I had no clue about what I was going to do after I went to college, so the story about the Marine Corps is an interesting one because at the time, Marines were recruiting officers on campus, they would come out in front of Hogan, set up a table and there'd be Marines in uniform recruiting individuals- Christian: They still do that? Schone: So at that time we were protesting, the Marine Corps recruiting on campus. And I say we because I was part of the protesters. And we stood around this table as only Holy Cross individuals can do when they protest. Maybe a 100 in silence for hours and the Marine officer in charge, Major said to me, you don't even know what you're protesting about. He said and you probably could even make it as a Marine. Now I don't know what happened but in the context of looking for something to do after college, I explored the Marine Corps, I took the test for this program. They asked me if I wanted to be an aviator and is said I don't have a clue because I'd never been in an airplane before, they said okay, well take the test, let's see what happens and I guess I did okay with that because I got past the application side, I went to Officer Candidate School, which was down in Quantico, for I think between my sophomore and junior year, no between my junior and senior year. Schone: 12 weeks of a lot of physical challenges, but a lot of it was officer leadership challenges and I got through it and came back to Holy Cross. Spent that whole year. Nobody knew that I had been through that. Graduated, got my commission as an officer, went to the Officer Training School which is the basic school then went to flight school. Flight school was interesting because I think I had the lowest grades of any candidate coming out of flight school and I was the third Black jet pilot in the Marine Corps behind Major General Peterson, the first Black General in Marine Corp and then Charlie Bolden who's a General as well. Charlie Bolden flew the light aircraft that I did but Charlie Bolden was the first astronaut, he was also the head of NASA. Schone: But this interesting about the Marine Corps was that, that was my first experience about being treated differently because I was Black. I was not a great pilot coming out of flight school, I was concerned that I got my wings because I was Black. I said to my instructor I don't want to get this just because I'm Black and he said Schone, I don't worry about you because you are confident, you're capable, you will not press yourself passed what your capabilities are and that's a good thing and sometime in your career, you're going to be okay and be a good pilot but up until that time, people are not going to think very highly of you, because you won't be performing at the level that they expect. Schone: And true to form, I didn't. At one time they challenged me on my ability from an academic stand point, whether or not I was smart enough to be a pilot and I had to use my performance and Officer Candidate School and basic school to show them I finished in the top five of the class out of 250, just to offset that. But subjected to evaluations both direct and indirect because of the color of my skin and I don't know if I accepted it or ignored it because I didn't know how to handle it. I will say that I went from being a very, very bad pilot to being a very, very good pilot. Then got out of the Marine Corps, but at the Marine Corps was very important, near and dear to my heart. A Marine, a Crusader, being raised by my mother, having family, legacy that's important and Winter4Kids, are all things that I'm extremely proud of and blessed to have had the experience because all those things helped me to be the person that I am both in business and personally. Christian: I love driving, I love being behind the wheel but flying a plane, I don't think that's something I'd ever do. What is that like? Anxiety levels have to raise, you more courteous. What is it like? Schone: Flying an airplane is like anything else that you do. Once you learn how to do it, I hope my son doesn't hear this because when I'm riding in the car with him driving, they may as well be a steering wheel and a brake on my side of the car because I'm pressing him out. But I think that, as you progress with anything, you learn how to do the basics and you learn how to take what you learn and apply it, which is skills that you develop. And then you get comfortable at knowing how to apply those things at the right time. But I will tell you that flying an airplane is interesting because it moves at 11 miles per minute and there's lots of things going on. So 11 miles per minute... So your thought process speeds up to process all that information. You don't skip steps, you just do that quicker which creates challenges for me today because some people say, well you get to a conclusion Schone, much quicker than everybody will and do you skip steps or do you jump to conclusions. Schone: It's really not true. What I do is, I process all those steps and risks and those things. I don't get it to a 100% but I've learnt to evaluate things, detail wise very quickly and then be able to make the right decisions but flying was and is one of those things that I got to do and landing on an aircraft carrier, all those things have created things that are special to me. And also, remember I told you that I did a lot of things because I didn't know I wasn't supposed to. They should told me, I should have been scared landing on aircraft carrier because now I probably wouldn't do it but... Christian: I got one question. I feel like a lot of people got to have this question as well, are all those buttons necessary? Schone: In an airplane? Christian: Yes. Schone: Every single thing that is in front of you in an airplane is something that's going to impact how long you live and how good you're going to be, at living that and doing your job. There is nothing in it that is unnecessary. Christian: I'm just asking, I just felt like there's too many buttons. I feel like at least 10% of them are just there to be there. Schone: No, and the interesting part about this, you learn how to scan them and you'd check on those things, not focusing on only one thing because you can't. But you'll learn how to quickly take those things in and keep your eyes outside. So you learn those things. Christian: So one thing, I don't think you did mention it. You went from Marine Corps to- Schone: Technology. Christian: Right. Technology in the '90s. To me that's pretty interesting because now that's almost like we're in an era where technology is part of our lives 24/7 but in the '90s, how was that? Schone: It wasn't like it was today. It was interesting because what we know of as a cloud, existed back in the '80s and '90s, that's what they called timesharing. But I do think what happened for me was, I always went to technology as... I was really interested in how I could use it. What could I use it for? And because I got my MBA at the same time that I was working for Computer Scientists Corporation which would use technology to solve problems. I actually used that technology to help me with my MBA and so I became a user of any technology to help me get things better, faster, sooner. So for me, and you know me, I have just about every piece of technology you van have but it's all about how do I use it? And how does it make my life easier? I think that today, we have a lot of technology out there. Schone: I'm not sure that we know how to use those things, like Apple creates things first and then you figure out how to use them later on. I still can’t figure out today, why in the world I've got a watch on my hand and I could call somebody, listen to music, tell time, manage how exercise I've got and by the way tell me if my heart is working. But if you think of that right, we didn't ask for all that. And so I think that it's evolving so that it helps us to live better and it did back then as well. Christian: So fast forward and imagine you go to banking but same time you got into Winter Sports with the National Brotherhood of Skiers. Now before we answer that one, I want to know what was it first time you got exposed to Winter Sports? Schone: I got exposed to Winter Sports, following my navigator when I was in the Marine Corps. We decided that one weekend we would go to Park City Utah. And on the weekends, in the military you train on the weekends, meaning you could use the plane to train and go to different places. So we decided to go to Park City. Mike Vizzier was a skier, Schone Malliet was not a skier. Mike Vizzier was an expert skier, Schone Malliet was not a skier. Got all the equipment, went to Park City, followed Mike up the lift and there's a lift called and a trail called Payday which had Park City people know is not something for a beginner. Followed him up there, fell getting off the lift, fell numerous times getting down and I promised myself, I was never going to do this again. I was cold, It was miserable and the immediate gratification of me doing something to get it right, was not there. I was not happy camper. That was the first time. Schone: Now National Brotherhood of Skiers which is the largest organized group of skiers in the United States, which is all African American had at the time, over 70 clubs now has about 50 clubs in multiple cities I lived in Los Angeles. I got hooked up with Four Seasons West and they socialized the whole process. Every weekend, we'd get in the cars and drive up the Mammoth. I wasn't any good then but happy hour helped so you may have been miserable, you may had a tough time but you got to go back and misery loves company. At least socialize about the experiences that you didn't really like. That allowed me safe place to get better at the skills, to enjoy it and help me get to where I am today. Christian: Now was the National Brotherhood of Skiers, was that a non-profit? Schone: Yes, it is, it was and at the time I was just a member of this club, but I also got into the coaching side of it and coached African American kids because the National Brotherhood of Skiers, their mission is to identify, develop and support Athletes of color who will win international and Olympic winter sports competitions, representing United States and to increase participation in winter sports. It was what gave me the experience to be a coach and then to take African American athletes who wanted to pursue that and to train, we went to South America twice during the summer time, which is winter there. We went to Switzerland twice to train. A great experience. Christian: Right. So you were doing that at the same time as the banking and stuff and I think for a lot of us that come from these communities that lack resources and those who are fortunate enough to end up in a college with more resources and get to network and all that stuff, our goal is to obtain as many resources as we can. One of those resources is money. So we try to chase the money but our heart also tells us to give back to the community. Did you feel like there was a pressure to do both or some type of... You felt like you were pressured to do one more than the other? Schone: I don't think any of those things at the time, were pressure things. I think it was things that I just wanted to do. I do think that somehow along the line of my life, I've been wired to make a difference in people’s lives. That's what drives me. And as part of my DNA, it's what fuels my energy and excitement, is to see what impact I can have on individuals, companies. Whether it's younger alumni like you or current students or races who want to pursue something, people who work here Winter4Kids. Because I realize that my life was gifted to me and the things that I've been able to accomplish and it took efforts and support and people around me, who cared enough about me to guide me. Maybe to chastise me, and even people who were negative to me gave me the skills to be who I am. So I think I've always been cognizant of the fact that I was the beneficiary of the people caring and helping me and I believe I internalized that, so that's what drives me to make sure that my team, they are as good as can be. Schone: That our impact at Winter4Kids on our youth has significant impact. That current students at Holy Cross, alumni, that if I can share my thoughts, my feelings, my experiences, not as directives but as information that it could be useful for them and for me with the things that they go through. Does that make sense? Christian: It definitely does. Definitely does. Now to today, Winter4Kids, you mention that a lot during our talk. Talk to me about that, what is it? What do you guys stand for? What do you guys do? Schone: Winter4Kids, our sole existence is to make a difference in our kids’ lives. Kids who traditionally don't have access to winter activities, through winter sports and the outdoors. That difference includes better health, through better and more activities but in which attitudes is about nutrition, their own future, the outdoors and opportunity for them to master something they have never done before. And to give them a platform to build upon so that now they have choices, can choose to go to college, can choose to explore a sport. To choose to ignore a practical or physical limitations to enjoy something different and new and the fact that over the last five years, it's been over 8671 kids, our kids and continuing to grow till we get to 10000 kids a year and we'll do about 34 hundred this next year and to be able to use Winter4Kids as a way to change lives, like you're an intern here and I have three Holy Cross interns this year. I think I have Oluchi, Meah and Emma, and they are shaping the future for us. It is an exciting and unique opportunity. Schone: It allows me to take a sport that I enjoy, an inert desire to make a difference in the lives of people, especially young people. The experiences of running a business, gathering the resources to do that and developing with the team. A sustainable plan is the most exciting thing I've ever had to do in my life and it's a blessing, karma, you can call it whatever it is but I get to do all those things a lot because of all the things that I experienced by my life. Christian: Right. Was I the first intern from Holy Cross? Schone: Yes. Christian: I was the guinea pig. Schone: Yes, you were the pioneer. Somebody once told me that pioneers get all the arrows but those that live through the experience get the first choice at prime real estate. Christian: I feel that. Now being a Black man and being a CEO of a winters sports organization, is that really strange to some people? And it definitely carries a stigma... There's a stigma that Black people don't belong in winter sports or they don't want to be in winter sports. How do you, with your platform try to change that? Schone: There's no doubt that winter sports, lacks in multicultural experiences or participation. In the role that I have today, has not always been received by everyone as a net positive for the industry and I ignore them. Christian: How? Schone: Well, the way that I live my life is that I can't control how people feel, I can't control how people think. The only thing that I'm rally in control of is what I do, my integrity and the values by which I live. And understand that, things like privilege and immunity come into play. That is, when you are first in an industry or sport or anything and you're being first is different. The evaluation of you is not the same as those who are from the majority are White. So, Winter4Kids, we have always been focused on what our mission is, how we do these things and create a culture of equity, access and emerging. I tell people today that at Winter4Kids, diversity, inclusion, equity, access and emerging, that's what Winter4Kids is. It's not something we do, so today we represent an example and a model for an environment that is culturally based on equity and access. Schone: Somebody asked me yesterday, how do you recruit people for a diverse company? I don't think that you recruit people, I think you promote the culture that is first and foremost, give everybody access to it, ensure that when they are in that culture that there's equity, that there's fairness across that and that you make it a safe place for people to contribute to the mission and to be themselves. We have a very interesting makeup of a leadership team and I didn't even think about this that, you know, of the 12 to 15 leaders on the management team, seven are female, three are male, four African Americans, we have Latinx. So that wasn't the plan, it happened that way because we are that way. So the question that I have now, is diversity, equity and inclusion a committee or is it a culture? Is it something that you talk about around the table or it's something that is a way of life? I think that it's both, it starts with the talking around the table but it needs to be the way things are, not something that you do. Christian: Yep. I think LeBron hit the nail on the head when he asked about this Black Lives Matter movement. I don't know what the question was but that was the phrase that many use, he said it's not a movement, it's a way of life and this is what... And I think that goes with the community versus culture issues that we have now. A lot of people just, whether it's businesses, companies, institutions giving us something to chase the dog's tail. Something to keep us busy and that sort of community thing versus culture thing where we want to feel this everywhere we go. Whether it's in the classroom, talking about school, whether it's in classroom with my classmates, professors, whether it's in the dorms, at the cafeteria, in the party, we want to feel included everywhere we go. We want to equality, equity everywhere we go not just where the legislation thinks it matters the most or where they think we're only arguing for or fighting for. It's everywhere we go. That's the culture right there. Schone: I agree with that. So now, I have made myself available to my colleagues who are White or of any background, to answer any questions they might have, without fear of judgment and an example is, I had one of my colleagues in the industry who's a publisher of a magazine ask me, and before they asked it, they said I'm a little bit ashamed, I'm sorry if this is uncomfortable, I just want to, and hopefully it's all right. And they asked me, Schone do I call you Black, African American or person of color. And I felt bad because that's where we've gotten to right? Is that, there are individuals out there who don't know what to say and don't know how to say it or who to and I say to them look, anyone of them work for me, because I go to intention. Schone: So if your intentions are good and you just want to understand, to be sensitive to me, then that's okay. I have to ask that about my colleagues who are Hispanic because now I don't know if I say Latino, Latina or Latinx. And I just learned that Latinx is the gender neutral side. The best way for me to ask and say which way, if I'm going to speak about race, which way works for you? I don't know if you know this movie, did you ever see Remember the Titans? Christian: That's my favorite movie, come on now. Schone: That is my favorite. Well, I want you to look up and watch the part of the obituary that was written in... I believe Jones died maybe about 10 years ago, whatever. But what Boone said about him and said about how they got together and I realize that the reason why I have hope is that I believe that we've created a culture where we can have conversations. I've had some people challenge me about the N word. About, have I ever been called that and I go yes even at Winter4Kids, not to my face but the question that some have is, how come on one hand the N word is a bad word right, and on the other hand it's used in music, right? And I said that's a courageous question for you to ask. I would say that it goes back to intentions again. When a person whose White used that word, it was meant to be demeaning, denigrating and to put us in our place. Schone: Within the cultural music, it has different connotations. It is coming from a different place and while the word is bad, which I agree that it doesn't have any real use today, that intentions dictate how things are received. Christian: I think you must have remembered the times... I think there are two things that bring us together, unfortunately one of them has been taken away from us this year because of COVID-19, and that's sports and music and we would just get together like the way we do when we're at concerts, when we're at sporting events and I think the world would be a lot... a way better place, a lot better. Schone: I think it will be. I think whatever happens coming out of this, we're going to be different. We're going to look at a lot of things differently, we're going to look at each other differently and not to minimize the trauma and the pain that COVID-19 and the race issues are causing us. It's going to be better, coming out the other side. I just hope it gets better, quicker. Christian: All this great work, that you've done for your communities, especially out there in Vernon, New Jersey. How do you think the Holy Cross mission statement, men and women for and with others, has helped you do what you do today? Schone: I actually think I live it, maybe. I don't know if I thought about it that way but I think intentionally I've been wired to do it that way and I think that the service of others right, is intentional. The responsibility to make a difference is purposeful and the opportunity to deliver on that mission is to be embraced and not only just embraced, but you need to not only feel it, you have to do it and you have to be it. And you could do all those things and live in this world and be successful and you don't have to sacrifice anything except for those things that are negative to do it. Christian: I think it's important for me to use this platform that I have right now to mention a concern that a lot of my friends have had with their mission statement. They feel as if some people are not included, when we just say men and women and when we mention others it makes people feel like us as the Holy Cross community is on top almost and we are regarding to other people that don't identify as or with the Holy Cross community as other, in a negative connotation. From my perspective and I'm pretty sure from yours and from a lot of people that I know, that's not the case. We want to include everyone and we try our best to include everyone and when we mean with others we do mean us as Holy Cross students and alumni, helping those who haven't sat on the Hill, who haven't experienced that Holy Cross lifestyle. And we are trying to help our communities, whether it's back home, whether its different schools, communities that we've never been to and all types of communities, all types of places in our life. Christian: So I just wanted to I just wanted to take this time to mention that. I think that is very important and maybe we may rephrase this mission statement, and I think that's just a legislative thing that we spoke about, but the culture thing is the most important thing and I think that's something that you are working on and I applaud you for that. So many other alumni are working on as well. Schone: I think that this brings up a good point, that language limits who we are and how we embrace what we does not. I hate labels, because when you define somebody by a label, you are either restricting them or you're limiting some parts of them. So I don't like labels because I don't like being in a box. I am not sure that I want to be... I'm not predictable and so you're right, I think language will evolve. I do think that the intention is to be as broad as possible but isn't that up to us as we take the mission and go forward with it, that our interpretation of that mission and what we do with that is what dictates how it’s received. So yeah, I think that its all of us at the Holy Cross community embracing everybody and what we do in the context of not just service but equity, access and taking the time to get to know each and every one of us as well as we know ourselves. Christian: Right. Has there been a mission statement that you came up for yourself or that you got from someone? That helps you do what you do now. That you live by today. Schone: Unimaginable dreams, inevitable opportunities. Christian: I should have known that. That's the motto for Winter4Kids, for those that don't know. Schone: But just think about that, in the context of where you are today and it’s tough to imagine the unimaginable right? But that's really what dreams are. And I really believe that I'm a living example of being able to do really, really good things most of the time and learning from the things I don't do so well to be able to create and support opportunities for others. Christian: Well Schone, I've got good news and bad news for you. Schone: Ohh oh. Christian: What do you want first? Schone: Give me the bad news. Christian: The bad news is that we're reaching the end of our episode. Schone: Wow okay. Christian: And the good news is we're reaching the end of our episode because it's the fun part, the speed run. So I'm just going to ask you some quick questions and I just want the quickest answers you come up... And if I ask why, the first thing that comes up to your mind. Schone: Okay. Christian: So, you ready? Schone: Yes. Christian: Favorite year at HC and why? Schone: '71. Christian: Is there a reason why? Schone: The reason why is, I got to make the varsity basketball team. When I looked at the list and I had made the team. Christian: Ah cool. Favorite dorm? Schone: Beaven. Christian: Favorite roommate? Schone: Bob Tomlinson. Christian: Saturday night, place to go? Schone: Wellesley. Christian: Three things to change about Holy Cross? Schone: There things to change about Holy Cross? The basketball teams record, that's number one. I'd like to see more interaction across cultures and let me explain, I know this is a short answer, you want a short answer but homecoming weekend, when you have the multicultural event, I'd much rather see that at the Hoval rather than down at the quad. And I'd like to see more Black students as part of the student body. Christian: Okay. Favorite sport? Schone: That I participated in or that I watched? Christian: Either or, it doesn't matter. Schone: My favorite sport actually happens to be basketball. The favorite that's to watch and the Warriors. The favorite thing I like to do is first track skiing, morning gloom slope with music. Christian: Okay. Besides skiing, favorite winter sport? Schone: Besides skiing, favorite winter sport? Football. Christian: Okay. Celebrity you admired growing up? Schone: Muhammad Ali. Christian: Okay. Favorite city to visit? Schone: Amsterdam. Christian: The least favorite job that you had? Schone: Working at UPS when I was at Holy Cross. Christian: Okay. Food to most likely make you cheat on your diet? Schone: Wings. Christian: If you could, and you could why you can't. If you could, five of those you'd invite to Winter4Kids, dead or alive, to ski? Schone: I'd love to invite to my mother and my father, who had never been able to see me accomplish this. Denzel, Martin Luther King, Steph Currie- Christian: Last one, filling in the blank. Schone Malliet is? Schone: Grateful. Christian: Well, Mr. Schone Malliet, thank you very much for taking this time to do this episode with me, it was a great one. I hope the listeners take a lot of things from this. Maura: That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be men and women, for and with other. A special thanks to today's guest and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the office of the alumni relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes, wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of St. Ignatius of Loyola, now go forth and set the world on fire. --- Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

Are you a Christian? They were quick in asking. Which means, do nothing with your life. #ep302. Previous episode here. Purchase a copy of the book here. Link me here. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/e-lloyd-kelly/message

Download this Episode Video marketing is a common discussion among real estate agents right now. Today we discuss some of the things to avoid during when video marketing listings in real estate. reThink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 23:49 RTRE 62 – Video Marketing in Real Estate [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I'm Chris here with Christian and Nate. And today we're talking about…Nate what are we talking about?  [Nathan]: What are we talking about? Listing videos and… [Chris]: Listing videos. We're talking about listing videos today.  [Nathan]: We're gonna be talking about listing videos. What's great about this episode, I think is, I'm not gonna be talking a lot, because I don't do listing videos. So that's…that's great. But Mr. Harris here is…is really…God he…what's the proper…he got a wild hair posses on this one. It was brought up I guess. [laughter] [Christian]: Oh boy.  [Nathan]: He has got has got some strong opinions people. About these listing videos and so I mean… I guess I have opinions. It's you don't need to do them. But I guess if you're gonna do them we're gonna let Christian talk about what you should do and shouldn't do. As we always talk about I guess on our podcast. I'm actually intrigued to hear what he's got to say. Because maybe I'll learn something since it's not something I ever venture into. So Christian you want to talk about listing videos and…and how they're done. Right. or how they're done wrong? Or maybe it's about content but you got some strong opinions. But what got this wild hair up, you know, to be so “eick” about it? [laughter] [Christian]: I don't know how much of a wild hair. But, I mean, Nate so what do you do to market your listings? Because that's when I say listing videos, I'm using it as a general term the agents use to market their listings. [Christian]: Well I tell all my clients up front too that if somebody comes in here and tells you they're gonna market their home, well I'm gonna tell them “Dude that's a [censored] word generally.” In our market, again we talked about this in the last two episodes, when I say our market here. You know what you have to do for marketing in Columbus? Put in MLS. It hits Trulia, Zillow, Redfin, boom boom boom boom boom. Right. great pictures I think are a giant, enormous and key. I don't see the need for video and unless it's depending on the caliber of the home. Right. I could…could do it. And then I'll segue. I think a lot of it depends on what you're also charging the client. Right. But…marketing…you put it in…put it in MLS.. Right. now that's about all you need to do. I mean… [Christian]: OK so let me let me ask you so what…so if you believe that all agents marketing is automatic, what value are you bringing your clients? What do you actually do for your clients that other agents don't do? [Nathan]: Boom. I'm better at negotiating then I think about 90% of the people out there. I guide them through the process of preparation getting their home prepared to put it on the market. What may need to be done or not need to be done to that home. Right.  [Christian]: So how's that presented if you're not doing a marketing? And you're doing photos. Right. But everybody does photos. [Nathan]: But yeah everybody does photos. But again everybody does photos, b ut there's a difference in the quality of photos. Right. you got plenty of agents to walk in with their own camera or their iPhone and take photos, yeah. Right.  [Chris]: Stay away from the Galaxy you all. Just… [Nathan]: Yeah right. Or you have an agency and a professional photographer to photograph a home. Right.  [Chris]: Which standard should be standard.  [Nathan]: Should be but I would… [Christian]: They can't…[crosstalk] [Nathan]: 50% of agents in the Columbus market do not use professional photography.  [Chris]: And Christian yes a photographer should be standard even on a vacant house. [Christian]: Oh no it should be. That was a little throwback to our last episode about the value of staging, you know. Yep professional photos help a house.  [Chris]: Photographer yes. Stager maybe not. [Christian]: Right. [Nathan]: And again I think it depends. Now what I do, I offer three options when I go on a listing presentation. You have a four percent of five percent and a six percent. Right. And they all vary with what you get for that amount of commission. Some people don't want to spend six percent. Most people go towards a five. But… [Christian]: So you give them options? [Nathan]: I give them options yes. And a lot of people like… [Chris]: It's a menu. [Nathan]: Yeah it's a menu. Right. It's no more. But I personally don't believe video sells a house. Why? Didn't [censored] sell a house 10 years ago. Why? Because they weren't doing it. And things sold just fine. So… [Christian]: Well I mean that's…I mean it's a, you know, you know, you don't want to get into that topic because there wasn't an internet ten years ago. And things have changed so… [Nathan]: Right. So… [Christian]: You know what that last brokerage said? “This is that we've done for 40 years, I'm not going to change it now.” [Nathan]: Famous last words. [Christian]: I don't think that's what you're saying. I hope not.  [Nathan]: No. But like so you say, well “What do you provide?” Well I also offer…I hate the word [censored] “discounted” but I will list your home and provide what generally is the same as any other agent, I just do it as a better rate. So but go back to your videos. [Christian]: OK OK. I wasn't…that was intended as a joke. As just kind of… [Nathan]: No it's OK.  [Christian]: I wanted to hear what you thought was the value you provide.  [Nathan]: Here is the other thing I provide. I provide them [censored] honesty because most real estate agents are [censored] liars. They won't tell the truth. They'll say anything to get the [censored] listing. I don't know if I talked about it. Let me rant on this one. I just went, did a listing presentation, like three weeks ago. I don't think I've talked about this. Right.Bbut the client walked me upstairs and I walked in the room and I went “Oh my God that [censored] wallpaper has got to go.” [Christian]: Yep you mentioned that in the... [Nathan]: Right. [Chris]: Yeah that's a good one.  [Nathan]: Right. So yes she laughed. Right. And I said what's so funny Jenny? She says “All the other agents came in here, just told me the room look beautiful. You're the first one to tell me it's ugly and I know it's ugly.” Most people just don't tell the truth. [Chris]: Was that the dentist? [Nathan]: Yes. [Chris]: Yeah I remember that one.  [Nathan]: What? What…what do you get? Right. You get pure honesty. You don't like it? Than don't [censored] hire me. Enough about that. [laughter] Let's go back to…we were talking about videos. How do we get back to videos? This all started with videos. [Chris]: Back to listing videos. [Christian]: Right.  [Chris]: Bring it in.  [Christian]: We've believed at this point a little bit. Nat's value is not in the marketing. And I'd say most agents' value is in the market, because honestly it is pretty automatic, it's pretty syndicated these days. And it's something, you know, I tell my…my clients too. It's like “Listen this is what an agent is gonna tell you. This is [censored]. This is, you know, this is…this is how it works.” I think my axe to grind when it comes to listing videos is that what most agents call listening videos are glorified slideshows. Stop calling it virtual tour or a listing video. [Chris]: Yeah we're…we're gonna give you a virtual tour. [Christian]: A moving-picture is not a video with some you know, generic music over. That's, you know, pet peeve of mine. I don't know why people still pay for that, you know, because I'll look on the MLS we have that virtual tour link. Right. Half the time I click on it some, you know, [censored] tour factory slideshow, with some crappy music go over. I'm like “What the [censored] is this?  [Chris]: Like yeah for us its property panorama but it's the same thing. Takes all your listing videos, automatically adds the background music and there you go. I've turned mine off in the MLS. [Christian]: Yeah so that bugs me. So to me I think when it comes to marketing there's two main things you can…you can do. And maybe three. I mean you could do a dedicated, you know, listing website. Which I think could be helpful, especially if you're seller is gonna share it, you know, as opposed to sharing like the MLS link or something, which looks, at least for us, looks archaic and cheesy. So having a dedicated landing page can be a helpful tool. Something like Kingston Lane. Really cheap. They do a good job. Or doing like a Matter Ports [phonetics] for 3d tour. I still think that is really powerful as a way for people to do a walk-through without actually being there. So they get a good feel for the house which you… [Chris]: Matter Ports is good. [Christian]: Yeah so we use that on all our listings. If you're gonna do video, I think you can either detract or enhance the house, to pay on how well it's done. So I say for most agents is probably not what you want to do. One, it tends to be expensive if you do it right, because you're gonna hire it out. If you do it yourself…you…you better be pretty damn good, you know. The reason I go with Matter Ports instead of videos, is because it allows the end user to control the experience. They get…it goes as fast as they want. They get to look at what they want. They're not stuck with “Oh it's a 30 second video and I didn't get to see what I wanted in the house.” Or “It's a 5 minute or 10 minute video and oh my God why is there five minutes of drone footage outside, before you get inside the house. I'm done.” They click off. So the problem with video is that nowadays people want it quick. They want to see what they want to see. And so it can really shoot you in the foot if you're not…if it's not done well and it's not done timely, it doesn't have a specific point. But I do still think there's definitely room for it. And…and there's some great people out there doing some…some really cool stuff.  Like I don't know if you guys saw the listing video for Ryan Lewis's house out here in Seattle. It's, you know, thirty million dollars or some crazy mansion. And they basically hired a influencer to do a twenty minutes basically like a roast of his house, under the guise of he's breaking and entering into Ryan Lewis's house. It is as they're making fun of it the whole…whole time through. And it's hilarious. It doesn't really good job to showcase the house. In like a normal listing video I won't last three seconds, and this thing, you know, watched all twenty minutes of it. Because it was funny. It was memorable. It's an amazing house, you know, then, you know, some more grassroots people, they're doing some amazing stuff with. Like Tim Macy, you know, our common Cameron, which we've had both them. [Chris]: Yeah they've both been on the podcast. [Christian]: Yeah but, you know, the RETV Facebook group is great for kind of forward-thinking, video focused content makers. [Chris]: Erica Wolf just did a new tour of a home.  [Christian]: Right. Yeah…yeah that was pretty…pretty funny.  [Chris]: See those are the things that the MLS won't allow as like listing videos though. Because with an MLS, at least in Georgia, for our listing tours it has to only be the property. So you can use Matterport or could do a video walkthrough, you can't do anything creative on the MLS board. So that's…that's outside of our listing video territory. That's social media marketing. That's promotion… [Christian]: This is if you want to stand out and actually provide something, not just as your own brand, but like if…if your clients want to be aligned with that outside-the-box viral video stuff, you know, I mean…I know like Phil Greeley, locally, he's a Sotheby's and he's just double down on video. And he's gotten some really high-end listings because he's done some…yeah from like doing some amazing videos. That get some great traction, you know. Like that he wouldn't have got that if he just did photos. [Chris]: [inaudible] with Gary Vaynerchuk [phonetics]. [Christian]: Yeah I'm just saying… [Chris]: And he was one of our first guests.  [Christian]: Yes. But I'm just saying it's not like it's worthless. [Chris]: No. [Christian]: But if you're gonna do it, do it right. [Nathan]: Some people do like…what's his name, The wolf of Whistler. [Chris]: Wolf of Whistler?! [Nathan]: Oh tell me you've seen it. [Chris]: Oh I know what you're talking about. Yeah.  [Nathan]: Well I mean his is good. I mean, you know, it's very much like a dollar shape for housing. But it was…I mean it's catchy, it's good, it gets people's attention. [Chris]: So let's talk about quality of listing videos. Because Christiane you kind of got into it and I did a lot of Matter Port. I think Matterport is good spending the money when it's not a seller's market. When…when you don't have to worry about, you know, the property being on the market more than 24 hours. [Christian]: I just do it in all my listings. But I own the camera. [Chris]: So out of Christian… [Christian]: I am just saying it's, you know, it's part of what we offer.  [Chris]: OK. I'm glad, you know, like staging is part of all your listings. I'm sure there's exceptions. [Christian]: If it makes sense. If it makes sense. [Chris]: Yeah yeah it's part of all my listings. So Matterport I've done. And…and I found that the Matterport increased the quality of the showings. Because by the time the people are coming out there, they've seen the property, over and over again. They've already walked the property over and over again. It's decrease the number of showings before contract. And then during the contract period its decrease the number of walk throughs. Why? Because we've already got a diagram that has every measurement of the home that's listed and it's online.  So we've got the entire floor plan of every floor of the house, that Matterport comes with. In addition to that they can continue to walk and do whatever they want. They can be screen shots and save the images. Whatever they need to do at night, in bed, kids are asleep. Whatever it is. Husband and wife. Whoever is buying the house can look at the property together or by themselves and just figure out where their furniture is gonna go, without coming back out to the house while it's under contract. So it's dramatically decreased the number of showings, but it's also decreased the number of times the buyer has to come to the house. In substantially sized homes.  Video. 100% has to be quality. I have fired video or content companies, for photo, Matterport, video. They do it all. I fired them because when I saw the video that they turned out, I can see the footprints in the video going up and down as the photographer's walking through the freaking house. And it just drove me nuts because it's like giving me motion sickness. And I know that my eye is better for that than like most of the public. And hardly anybody's gonna notice. But I notice. That's my brand. So that [censored], not acceptable. It's hard to find a good photographer. Somebody that can do video. Because they've got to have  the equipment. They've got to have the stabilizer. They've got to make it so like they're walking through. They're not like… [Christian]: If you're paying for it they better at least have a gimbal. So you…it doesn't look like they're walking, you know, bouncing walking through the house. I mean it's a basic. You could buy one of those for 80 bucks yourself, you know.  [Chris]: Well if you're using it for an iPhone. But for a camera it's not 80 bucks.  [Christian]: Yeah I mean they're more expensive. But my point is, you know, if you're like that's what you do, you better had the equipment for it. [Chris]: Yeah absolutely. So I've got a great photographer in Georgia. His name is Keith Hirsch, Georgia home view. Best photographer in the state in my book. I've had a lot of people come across my desk and Keith is the only one that I've looked at and I've said “You know what? I can't do this. That's like…that's way above like my…my level.” And I've been in a darkroom since I was 14. So I've been around a camera… [Christian]: They locked you the closet? Under the stairs?  [Chris]: Like developing, you know, each other. [Christian]: Oh OK I thought you were talking about child abuse. OK. I'm sorry. [laughter] [Chris]: A real darkroom. Not Harry Potter's bedroom. [Christian]: Got you. OK. [Chris]: So when I saw that, I got in. and he doesn't have a gimble. He uses a shoulder rig or I think he's got like one of those rigs for his camera, where you hold it with two hands. He's just so good that it looks fluid. Like you can't even tell. I asked him. I thought he shot the inside video with a drone, and he didn't. It was just his camera and he was walking through the property. Look the quality of your media reflects the quality of your work. That's what you're putting out there. If you're putting out a free MLS provided, you know, flipbook, of the properties that you have, the pictures that you've already listed and just putting it to music, nobody's gonna watch that. That's a waste of time. And for you to market yourself and saying “This is a video. Like we're gonna give we're gonna give a video tour of the property too. We're gonna turn all you have pictures into videos.” Welcome to 1997 like tech class in high school. Like that's…that's….we're way beyond that. [Christian]: Sure. Well and that's why I like…I mean when I first got into real estate, you know, I pretty quickly started pushing back against kind of the idea, you know, a lot of agents were being told “Hey you just do something. Just get something out there. Get content out there.” Now I'm like “Well no you better think about it. Better get it right.” Because if you put bad content out there, that's gonna hurt you worse than you if you had nothing out there, in some situations. Because… [Chris]: It's like that note, it's like that saying “There's no such thing as bad press.” [Christian]: That not true. Well because I mean if…if I…if I did…Let's say I did listing photos with my iPhone and you look like [censored] that's not better than having one good picture up there. You know, or, you know, you know, and so far we've talked about like listing videos as far as like if you're gonna do them do them, do them right, do them professionally.  But if there's…I think there's also room for, you know, more on the social media side. For the Facebook lives, Instagram lives, you know, the walkthroughs, the impromptu type stuff. You know, that's not gonna be professionally done edited, that's in on the fly type of thing. There's definitely room for that. But, you know, again have a purpose to it. Don't just be, you know, talking to talk or going live to, you know, to do it. And yeah I don't know.  What are you guys thoughts? Do you go live [Chris]: Nate? [Nathan]: No. Again… [Chris]: [laughter] “No. Not me. I don't do it.” [Nathan]:  I think a lot of these… [Christian]: I think in social media you can. [Nathan]: I think a lot of what we do right now is all dependent upon your market. And were, you know, buy or seller market. What, you know, what you're charging commission. I mean we talk about a lot of things. But a lot depends on what you charge. What condition is your market in. What…what's the house like. How much…you know, let's be honest, you know,  you're not gonna stage one hundred thousand dollar house with three thousand dollars furniture. You know, staging. Right. So it's all relative.  It's each…each situation is different. I am…like I said. I have not staged a house. I've not done video on a home. I do have one that I would consider doing video of. But I think a lot of it is overkill. It's just my opinion. Whatever you do in whoever you use just make sure they're reputable. Like here if I was to have video done, I'd called Joey…Joey T media. He does an awesome job and that's who I would hire. Right out the gate. So just make sure, you know, whatever you do it's…it's professional. That's…that's kind of where I'm at with it. [Chris]: You talked about Facebook live? And go and live on Facebook right now. Just as we're gonna wrap up this episode. [Nathan]: Oh God Almighty. [Chris]: Oh God Almighty. Heaven forbid I go on Facebook live Nate. Like really. So I mean Christian I think you've got some great points when it comes to listing media and making sure that the video is quality. Not using the stupid slideshows of images and how we do the…like the property panorama. What is it? What's the service that you have where you are? [Christian]: I mean whether it's a tool live or a factory. I mean if you wanna do a slideshow, do a slideshow. But don't call it a listing video. You know. [Chris]: Yeah.  [Christian]: Don't call it a virtual tour. [Chris]: Yeah it's a slideshow. It's not a listing video. It doesn't help market the property. Nobody's gonna look at it. Make sure that the quality's there. Or, you know, be like Nate and don't do any of it. Just be honest and, you know, what's your humor show. And there we go. [laughter] Christian is playing us back. [Christian]:  I'm watching you live well recording this.  [Chris]: Hey Christian Harris is watching. Bring them online. I'm not bringing you on camera Christian because… [Christian]: No that would be bizarre. We have like us some time vortex. [Chris]: Yeah be like…we will be looping back and forth for like minutes. So it's…it's important that we make sure that the quality of our marketing material is on par with the brand that we want to portray as our business. So, you know, any last words guys before we wrap this up? [Nathan]: No I'm good. [Christian]: Yeah….yeah I mean it's I'd say for any service you provide, any marketing, I mean it really comes down to what are you doing for the client. You know, like do you have… is this intentional or you just kind of like throwing stuff out there? You know, so whether you choose to do video or not, whether you choose to state or not. What…you know, like however you do stuff. Like make it consistent. If, you know, and…and set the expectations up front.  You know, if people are paying you to like be honest and, you know, you…you think all marketing is the same than hey or just, you know, say that out of the gate. You know, but if you think you really do something that kicks [censored] in marketing and that's why they're hiring you, hey make sure to emphasize that. [Chris]: Yeah when…what…definitely. And I will reiterate that. When it comes to your marketing, it is your name, it is your brand, it is you building your business. And if you want to be good at it you need to focus on all of the aspects of your business. You need to make sure that that media that you're putting out there to the public is a reflection of who you want to be. Period. So alright everybody thank you so much for tuning in. this has been another episode of re:Think Real Estate. We're so happy to have you on board. If you haven't already, please go to re:Think Real Estate's website which is rtre.podcast.com. Subscribe to the newsletter. You'll get a notice every time a new episode drops. And please go on…find us on iTunes at re:Think Real Estate. Leave us a five star review. Tell us what you think about the website or about the podcast. You don't even have it…you don't even have to listen to us. For anybody that's watching on Facebook live right now, just go and leave us a review. We'll be happy. [Christian]: I think. I'm the only one live now.  [Chris]: Yeah one person that's watching live right now. More people will see it later. They're always watching the recaps. So thank you so much. We will see you next week.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode Body language is one of the most important tools in your arsenal to build a rapport with your clients. Today we discuss how much more important your body language is to your clients than your words and your tone. We discuss the ins and outs of the handshake, when to avoid closing the deal, and what different signals mean. Tune in and don't forget to leave us a review on iTunes! Our body language conveys a clear message. Rethink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 25:59 RTRE 53 – How Body Language Can Improve Your Real Estate Business  [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody welcome back. This is re:Think Real Estate your number one source for real estate, business, news, tech and tactical advice. Today we're talking about body language and why that's important in your real estate business. Christian. What do you think about body language buddy? [Christian]: The language of the body. [laughter] I think it's good. I think it's something we probably don't focus on enough because you know there's a lot of subconscious queues that we take from tone of voice and the…and the disposition of someone's body that we don't really recognize. You know we focus on scripts and what we say but you know it's actually a relatively small amount of our communication, affective or not is through our words. [Chris]: Absolutely. So interestingly enough if you haven't…to anybody out there if you haven't researched how body language works and how communication works, about 7% of all communication is vocal. Those are the words that I speak. The words coming out of my mouth. And 30…what was it? 38% of all of it was actually vocal. That is the inflection, the tone of our voice makes up more of the communication that we're…in the message that we're sending to others, than do the actual words that we speak today. [Christian]: Wait is that why my wife is always upset with me? And she never focuses on what I say but how I say it? [Chris]: Yes. Yeah that's actually… [Christian]: Lessons to learn there. OK.  [Chris]: And yeah. So interestingly enough that you bring that up. People that are naturally able to read a room, so if you've come across somebody and you're like “Wow they're very perceptive”, it's because they pay attention to body language. And women are way better at this than men are. Just naturally they stop and think.  But 55% of all communication is through body language. It's nonverbal. It's in the gestures that we make. It's in how we present ourselves. And, you know, for anybody watching this you're not gonna see anything that I am doing but you'll hear in the vocal inflection more than you'll pay attention in the words that I am saying just statistically. So please keep listening to my inflection. [laughter] But it's extremely important. And I think that in real estate we have all these sales gurus that are telling you “This is what to say, this is what to say. Call them. This is what you need to say to somebody”. They're writing scripts down. They're telling you how often you need to call somebody. They're telling you when like who you need to call. You need to call all your neighbors and you're doing circle prospecting and you're inviting them all to you open house.  But it doesn't tell you that…none of these coaches talk to you and say “And by the way when you call them don't do this and talk like “Hi my name is Josh and I am a realtor and I am listing the house down the street. We have an open house coming up and I would like to invite you there [flat intonation]”. Because you're gonna put everybody to sleep. Not only that but nobody wants to talk to somebody that they don't know and they're not passionate or enthusiastic about anything that they're saying so the inflection makes a difference. What do you think Christian? [Christian]: I think you're real spot on there sparky. [Chris]: Just keep petting my ego. [Christian]: Yes. [Chris]: Like words I never get tired of hearing. “You're right”. [Christian]: Yes it's interesting because so much you know with something like google something like audio podcast, all you're hearing is the voice of the content and the inflections. Right? So like on my other podcast it is interview based. It's the Sea Town podcast. What I started doing is instead of having the guest sit you know across a chair across from me, everybody sitting and talking, I use my stand desk and we put the microphone in the middle and we stand. And have a conversation.  Because there is actually you know statistics that talk about, you know, you actually have a lot more energy naturally and a lot more expressive when you're standing and you can talk with your hands and you're not like standing in a chair. And so you can actually hear them in someone's voice as far as their energy level and their excitements if they're standing versus if they're sitting. You know.  And I notices that myself. Like if I am monologue-ing or something I have to be really intentional like if I am doing video I need in my head I need to be super over the top excited because it might actually come out to the other person like I am talking normally. [Chris]: Yeah and I mean it's really weird because a lot of people talking about the inflection in your voice like if you're selling something you need to be passionate about it. Because people hear the passion more than they hear the words that you're saying. So if you're sitting down with a seller or a buyer and you're talking about “Oh this is the process and this is how we're gonna help you buy the house and we're gonna get you prequalified [flat tone]” versus “Hey this is awesome. You're at a stage now where we have a lot to do and here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna get you prequalified and you're gonna talk to X,Y,Z lenders and once we get the prequalification down we're gonna start doing the home search. So you've given me some of the things and…[excited tone]”.  The message is completely different. Inflection in how you talk. People can hear passion. People can hear whether or not you actually care about what you're doing. [Christian]: They can tell whether or not you believe in the product you are selling so to speak. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: “I think everybody should own a home” [flat tone] “I THINK EVERYBODY SHOULD OWN A HOME” [excited tone]. [Christian]: Your examples are killing me. Stop. Stop.  [Chris]: [laughter] So I mean and then it comes down to like the body language. Right? So once you're actually in front of people how important is body language? Well not only it is 55% of all communication but it…body language permeates even our vocal. It permeates our vocabulary. Right? You're got phrases like ‘to shoulder a burden'. ‘To face up to it'. ‘Keep your chin up'. ‘Put your best foot forward'. They all describe how we can approach things and inevitably these phrases give an innate understanding of what that message is supposed to portray. Even if you're not able to communicate it verbally. Right? People just understand what those mean. And that's because we understand the messages that come across through body language.  All right so here is some things that we could talk about how we can add body language into your repertoire. How you can focus on improving things. So there was a study done on using your index finder to point. And first off you should never point with your index finger mainly because there is lots of cultures that consider it rude.  Secondly because this study had 2 different audiences, same speaker, same speech. In one speech the speaker was pointing with his index finger. In the other speech he was gesturing with his hands open, palms open, hands up. And 80…over 80% of the audience was receptive and thought that he was well mannered in the…in the speech where palms were open. Under 40%...actually over 40% of the audience thought he was arrogant and did not know what he was talking about in the speech where he was pointing with his index finger. So there is some food for thought there. [Christian]: I mean I find that pretty interesting. I was talking about a case study. What…if our listening are thinking to themselves “What are we talking about when we're talking about body language?”. Like the things that come to my mind are the obvious ones like if I am sitting you know leaning back in my chair with my arms crossed I am giving off, you know,  the impression that I am closed and I don't give a [censored] about what you're saying. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: If you know I am generally sitting with open posture I am receptive to what someone is saying or respectful or whatever. [Chris]: Yeah. And… [Christian]: Here are some examples. [Chris]: In most times you're right. Now there is a few reasons people are gonna sit with their arms crossed though. People are gonna sit with their arms crossed either they don't give a [censored] about what you're saying and they just…they…nothing you say is gonna get through to them or maybe they're anxious. Maybe they're nervous.  All 3 of those feelings will come across when somebody is crossing their arms. For example, you know crossing arms isn't just it as a…crossing arms is the most common especially for kids. But as people grow up they get more kind of conscious about what they're doing with their hands and arms. They start taking on more of a subtle role.  So if anybody has ever watched Prince Philip. Prince Philip will grab and adjust his cufflink which is his arm crossing his body. It's a nervous tick that he has and he does it whenever he is in large crowds. Same thing Queen Elisabeth. She will clutch a purse. She will hold with both hands so she is crossing her body. And people, adults do this all the time.  So it's just watching for the subtleties and it's learning to understand what they're actually doing. And this is super important because Christian if you're sitting across from me and you're a seller and you're talking about listing your house and your arms are crossed it's not a good time for me to go in for a close and ask you to sign stuff. [Christian]: [laughter] Yeah it doesn't seem like a lot of buy in, you know. [Chris]: No it's time for me to start digging in and asking you questions to find out what's really bugging you. So I mean… [Christian]: What would you say… [Chris]: Go head. [Christian]: Sorry didn't mean to interrupt your example. I was gonna say what are some examples for real estate agents to come across as far as like being in tune not only to your own body language but to your client's body language as far as what they may be saying without saying it? [Chris]: Well for us we want to make sure that we're doing a few things. 1, we want to be open. We want to gesture with our hands open not with our index fingers. We never want to cross our body so when we're seating we're not crossing our legs. Now women in you're wearing a skirt that is an exception. But we're not fidgeting. We're…our arms are open. Our arms and hands are not touching. Arms are not crossed. Sitting upright with a good posture. Those are all extremely important.  Second your handshake. Your handshake is incredibly important. You want to have a firm handshake. There is 3 different styles of handshake and they all mean different things, right. If your handshake is palm up than that's kind of a submissive handshake. Those are things that you would give when you're meeting the pope, right. Somebody who is in a very important higher up kind of status.  And then for the opposite of that is the palm down handshake where you are displaying authority. It could be a power symbol. So for the most part when you're meeting with people especially clients, people that you're doing business with you want to make sure that their handshake is vertical. Right, your palm is up and down and you want it to be firm.  And then starting off with a good handshake because once…if the handshake gets [censored] up, if somebody misses whatever it is just grab their elbow, do it again. Say “Hey let's get this right” because doing something like that is gonna show them that you care enough about them to make sure that you're getting off on the right foot and you're gonna make sure that the meeting is important. [Christian]: Say when I mess up on a handshake I just go in for the awkward like “Hey bro…” bro hug you know. That usually…wait I don't close my deals.  [Chris]: Yeah never met someone with those [laughter]. That usually doesn't work.  [Christian]: Yeah I wouldn't recommend it on the first meeting. [Chris]: So there is actually ways that you can really make a handshake more powerful. But if somebody is…if you just know them, right, it creeps people out if you like touch them and give them a handshake. But if you just spend time like an hour getting very personal with somebody about what they have going on like when you shake their hand to leave you can grab the outside of their hand. Say “Thank you for your time.” Or maybe their elbow and just handshakes shouldn't be more than 3 seconds. [laughter]. If they are they get creepy. But just doing that extra gesture shows that you care, that you can empathize with what they go through.  It's just not something that you do right when you meet somebody cos than it's weird and creepy and they're gonna think that you're inauthentic. So I mean there is a lot of things that we can do as agents to use our body language to make a…the experience more warm, more inviting for our clients and the people that we're meeting on a daily basis.  [Christian]: Alright. So…So Chris give me some examples. Let's do a brief list of body language to dos and body language to don'ts [laughter]. Things not to do. Let's start with some stuff that we should be doing like specifically regarding, you know, maybe common interactions that a real estate agents would have with a client. What are some things they wouldn't be conscious of when meeting a client? [Chris]: Well when you're meeting a client you always want to make sure that you're making eye contact. That you're not crossing your hands. You're not fidgeting with anything. You are giving them your full attention. It's important that you have good posture. That you're upright. Shows that you are caring and paying attention on what they have to say. [Christian]: OK now what if let's say they are from an Asian background. Because a lot of these body language to dos are relevant to the American culture which you know to some other cultures we seem aggressive. [Chris]: Yeah we definitely do. [Christian]: But the Asian cultures you know it's respectful to you know not make eye contact and look down you know or be more passive you know. [Chris]: Culture is definitely something to pay attention to because it is extremely important. There is a great book out there and if I can remember it I will post it in the links. Which is basically like a cheat sheet of how to interact with like 100 different cultures. And what's…what's considered appropriate and what's not. So that's really up to the individual to know who they are gonna be meeting with. And to make sure that they understand how they need to act.  Body language though is gonna be pretty universal. If you are fidgeting is gonna come across that you are not interested. If you're crossing it's gonna be closed off. And the reason body language is so universal is because that's how communication happened before language developed. Like we had silent movies. Silent movies worked before audio came into the movies. People understood what was going on and that was universal. People can understand a story based off of not having words. [Christian]: Sure interesting, interesting reminder yeah. [Chris]: Sure there are cultural things but for the most part you want to be open, you don't want to have anything crossed because you want to be considered trustworthy. You don't want to touch your face. You don't because touching your face is like a nervous tick for a lot of liars so you just want to stay away from all of that and just focus purely on what the other person is doing. Don't fidget. Pay attention. [Christian]: But what about the…the common…I don't know if it's a myth or not. You know I have heard that if people are lying they always look up and to the left. You know like that kind of stuff I mean like is…Because I know like when I think. Like if someone asks me a question I have to think about it. I notice that I look away. While I am thinking I don't look back like I don't know like that is subconsciously picked up or matters. You can't really control it. [Chris]: Well people pay attention to that stuff but I don't know if it's about a lie. So for that I think people look up in a way because they want to focus on their thought process and not be distracted by the person that is right in front of them. You want to pay attention to the person as much as possible. And sometimes they might ask you a difficult question and you need to think about some details but I will try not to pure away if possible. But you know that is a little outside of my realm. I am not too familiar how the unconscious works with you know look up and left or look up and right. [Christian]: Very true.  [Chris]: Based off of what you were saying. [Christian]: OK so what…what…So getting into some of the things not to do. You know you mentioned you want to focus on the other person. What about when you focus on in the wrong way of too much and you know people get a creepy vibe? What are some body language things that give off that that ? You don't want it. [Chris]: I think [crosstalk]. For me really the worst is a bad handshake. The dead fish, the like bone crushes. The…the sweaty palm I mean it's…those handshakes, those meetings never go well. Somebody comes in and they're meeting with me and they come off the back like immediately I need to go the restroom and like wash my hands. And I understand, there is a certain…there is a percentage of the population that is like…somewhere between 10 and 15% of the population I think that suffers from a medical condition where they just overly sweat. I get it. But if you're going into a business meeting before you go in have a handkerchief. Get a little dried off there and than, than start.  [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: And I would probably say that the limp, the limp fish is like way worse the bone crushes. That's probably the second worst in my book. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: But that's like to me that's like the holy grail. You don't violate that. [Christian]: Sure. Would you say that…that you kind of…I know it is a general statement but that…what does a handshake say about someone like either a bone crashes to me that says hey they are trying to…they are coming in aggressive. And they're trying to dominate the other person. [Chris]: Exactly. [Christian]: While the limp fish is like super passive, not gonna have an opinion about things. Doesn't want to offend people. [Chris]: So the limp fish is an interesting one because for the most part yes. They're like…they're the message it conveys is that they're submissive. They're not gonna be very strong. But there's a cavy out there. If they work in a profession where they use their hands like if they're a surgeon don't expect to get a strong handshake from a surgeon. Especially if they're a very good one because their hands are insured. Because if…if they just do that naturally like all means to protect the tool that is their livelihood.  But yeah typically the bone crusher is a power move. People don't do that on accident. They do that because they want to make an impression. And I think a lot of people come in with the bone crushes thinking “Oh I am gonna show them that I really mean business and I am gonna crush their hand and show them that this is a strong handshake”. But the reality is that if you go to do something like that to somebody and you are not their superior, you are not in a position of authority with them it's a complete turn off. I had a home inspector do that for me and you know what I am not messing with them. I don't want to deal with anybody that is just trying to put on a show. And you know be more important than they are. Just vertical… [Christian]: Type a yeah? [Chris]: Yeah. Firm match the grip of somebody…of the other person. That's all you gotta do. It's not hard. It's not rocket science. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: But I am finding out that like I don't know, did your dad ever teach you how to do a handshake when you were younger?  [Christian]: My dad didn't teach me [censored]. I hope he doesn't listen to this podcast. [laughter]. Not now there wasn't a lot of intentional training that I remember from my dad unfortunately. [Chris]: OK so a lot of…a lot of man get that. [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: Women don't. That's not something that is taught to women. So women have to get out and learn these stuff because they will come into…if a woman comes in and they do a very weak handshake in a business environment they're gonna be thought of as feminine. And they're gonna be treated as such.  If they don't come in with that firm handshake that says “Hey I am here I am on equal ground with you and we're gonna do this” than there is…it's been traced that they'll be treated differently. Conversely if they come in with a bone crusher nobody is gonna want to deal with them. They're here for a power play which… [Christian]: Sure. I am sure there is gonna be some subconscious double standard where they're gonna be “Me and you rather as dudes and not used to think in terms of…and OK if a guy you know does this thing this is my response but if a woman does it I am gonna think about it differently” you know like… [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: Yeah that can definitely be unfair in the business world. You know kind of a double standard that we subconsciously apply.  [Chris]: Definitely. There is a great book for anybody who is interested in learning more about body language and how it can impact and shape how your business ventures go. Not only in your business life but it also talks about things that you need to know in your daily life. How to read a bar, how to read a party and you're able to see how people are feeling based off of how they interact. The book is called The Definitive Book of Body Language. The Hidden Meaning Behind People's Gestures and Expressions. By Allen and Barbara Peas [phonetics]. It's a great book. Currently reading it now and somewhat sound like an expert based off of that but don't take it for granted.  [Christian]: Oh yeah. [Chris]: I get my info from books.  [Christian]: I will make sure it doesn't go to your head. [Chris]: Thank you. I appreciate that. No it's definitely good stuff. It's important that we pay attention to how we're communicating with people not just verbally, not just vocally but also through our body language. So everybody thank you so much for tuning in. This has been another episode of re:Think Real Estate. We'll be back next week. Nate will be back. And I think we've got some guests coming up soon. So we will have some good guests. We'll see you soon.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Ever wonder why some people leave a bad taste in your mouth after meeting them? Successful marketing requires building a relationship with your audience. Many real estate professionals avoid this and instead grab a bullhorn and shout at their audience expecting the same results. Tune in for today's episode to hear us talk about how to NOT be annoying in your interactions with the public. The re:think real estate podcast is hosted by Chris Lazarus, Nathan White, and Christian Harris. Thank you for tuning in. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Audio length 30:15 [music] [Chris]: Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech. [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Christian Harris and Nathan White. What's going on guys? [Christian]: Hey fellas what's happening? Alright [laughter]. Today we're gonna talk about being annoying [laughter].  [Chris]: That's a great intro for that Christian. Before we get started Nate how is your CRM doing? [Nathan]: Yeah…anyway… [Chris]: [laughter] Alright. So yeah, we definitely want to talk about being annoying and how not to do that. Today's episode we're talking about marketing. And our good friend Joe Rand over from JoeRand.com just came out with an article a few days ago which was “Stop being annoying-The 3 phases of communication technology and why nobody likes us”. So great article. Nate you found this. Why don't you tell us a little bit about it? [Nathan]: Well I didn't find it. It happened…you know I found it, whatever. I saw it. It was funny because I was having thoughts like Joe was having and Joe was much better with words than I, that's why he has a couple of books right? But I just…I was getting annoyed because like I get on Facebook right and it's just…it's just…It's not even Facebook anymore. What we used to know right. It's kind of like you know how MTV changed. It's all marketing. It's just marketing. And a lot of it it's realtors who won. I mean I'm not…I hate to be that guy to pick on our industry but again we got a content. It's horrible but again you know whether it's from…And I mean I am looking here right now. Some golf advert to realtor, to realtor, to realtor. Like it's just nonstop and it's poor. And I don't know I feel like we find a good you know what would you call it, a medium, and than we go and ruin it and people hate us for it. And Joe you know wrote the article about how to stop being annoying. He offers a 3-part solution. Phase 1 the excitement. Phase 2 solicitation. 3 is the protection.  [Chris]: Let's talk about that. [Nathan]: Well let's talk about it but I want to get to the point real quick on this and then we go back to the 3 phases.  And then he offers he says “What's the solution?”. He says “Well we can't do anything about everyone else”.  I agree 100%.  “But we can police our own behavior”. Instead of using email, social media, phones to make annoying calls that only serve our own interest we need to focus our outbound marketing efforts on providing a service to other people. Think about what they need not what you need.  [Christian]: But being client centric? What. That's crazy. Thinking about other people.  [Chris]: I've never heard of that before.  [Nathan]: I don't think we've ever talked about that have we? [Chris]: No it's completely out of line with this show.  [Nathan]: So Phase 1. Phase 1 is excitement. [Chris]: And so phase 1 like I think he compared it to people getting an answering machine right. Everybody got an answering machine and everybody wanted to see the red light blinking and then telemarketers just ruined it. And then nobody has an answering machine now and people barely check their voicemail. [Christian]: Sure I mean I think the idea is you know I mean there's quite a number of books on you know technology and evolution of it and this plays right into that theme of when something new comes out it's exciting. Everyone wants it. You know it goes back to like the days of pre-TV with you know door to door salesman. You know like being at home is boring so people wanted people to come to the door.  And then that got saturated and you know you had the mail. People enjoyed getting mail and then you know solicitations and advertisement got in the mail and now people you know hover over the recycling bin throwing away mail.  And you know now you're getting that you know with social media. Like you used to enjoy getting on social media and checking in with friends and whatever and now you have to whip 30 you know half of it is solicitations from agents or other marketers, you know, as agents. We're getting solicited for leading this or growing your business that you know by who knows who. You know so self-described gurus. And you know now you have to filter there. Now you know it takes away the joy of what once was. Looking forward to getting online or looking forward to getting the mail or looking forward to someone getting to your house. Now it's annoying. [Chris]: Yeah we find something that we enjoy. We get excited about it. New technology and all the advertisers start catching on to it. They start saying “Oh we can reach people in a new way through this technology”.  And then they start soliciting and soliciting and hounding us left and right through the mediums that we're enjoying. And that's the end game right? Because that's how these platforms make money. It's though advertising. They're advertising companies.  And then what happens next that's what Joe says is phase 3. That's protection. We stop paying attention to them. We develop coping mechanisms to not be solicited and not listen or not pay attention to the ads that are coming on. And I think that this is a big reason why our attention span has now become that's less than a goldfish. Because that has been a coping mechanism to pay…to not pay attention to all of these solicitations that we're getting.  [Christian]: Yeah I mean I would say that part of it is just a medium of social media. Not necessarily being advertised. You know it's you know there's another big leaf. There is a message in that medium so it's not just the only thing they're consuming is the message you know but consuming a message via print versus auditory, versus you know social media. You know like it's gonna do different things in your brain. You respond differently you know.  But it doesn't help that we now have all this extra white noise to filter through to get to what we actually wanna see which is typically you know friends and family and not solicitors trying and sell us something. [Chris]: Absolutely and so let's talk about how we cannot be annoying. You know I friend people in real estate all the time and last week somebody reached out on Facebook, sent me this message. This person is in real estate.  This is what they said “Hey Christopher I almost didn't message you because I don't want to come across spammy. LOL. My wife and I have had some great result with “Thrive”. More energy [cough] mental clarity, weight management. I even sleep better. It might be for you and I think or it might not and that's OK. Just wanted to share what's working for me. Would you be open to more info?” There's absolutely nothing of value that that person delivered to me. And it's just… [Nathan]: If you're not sleeping well it could be of value. [Chris]: Well do I want more energy or do I want to sleep better? I mean does…is it just me or those 2 are completely different ends of the spectrum?  [Nathan]: [censored] I just want my kid to stay in his bed at night and not interrupt my sleep so if they can fix that for me in that email. [Chris]: [laughter] I mean it's what has become of people. And that person is in real estate and they are paddling a multi-level marketing product on the side. I mean do you think that their real estate marketing may end up following similar pattern? I don't think it's a farfetched to actually see that leap being made. [Nathan]: I think-no go ahead sorry. [Chris]: No I mean I…kind of the point I kind of make here is if you're just going out and peddling something in front of somebody they're gonna ignore you. Those are the coping mechanisms that we have developed now. It's no longer…like we don't like being sold things.  [Nathan]: No I am attracted to the brands or things that eat my curiosity. That I don't feel like they're jammed down my throat.  And so I'll use a perfect example and in no form or shape I represent them but recently I have been doing the Purple Carrot Meal Delivery right. And I just hashtag it on my Ohio running realtor Instagram. You know “#purplecarrotblablabla”. The…I take pictures of the food which is really good. But I have had more people reach out to me just through organically saying “Hey can you tell me a little bit more about Purple Carrot?”.  I am not…I am not on there going “Purple Carrot is the bomb bla bla bla”. I put what the meal is. I state you know whether it is cous cous or whatever it may be, insert a joke there and take a really nice picture and then put it out there.  And I have had a lot of people private message me or DM me or whatever you wanna call it and say “Hey can you tell me more about it?”. I am not forcing it down anybody's throat. I am not saying you have to have this”. But it has created interest.  I am a brand ambassador for Prevail Botanicals. You don't see my thread on Facebook with Prevail every day. We use a hashtag. We don't jam it down your throat. Have that people say “Hey what stuff do you use with your sore muscles and your AT pains from running and bla bla bla” and I say “It's Prevail”.  If they wanna know more than they'll ask but I feel it's the same with real estate. Like if somebody is really genuinely interested in real estate they're gonna ask you. Just...you don't have to jam it down people's throats. At least I believe that you're a [censored] realtor. Like just I don't know I feel like we're so over the top. Like over the time. Like “What do you like better this back porch or that back porch?” “What I like is when you don't post [censored] like that personally but…”  [laughter] Like nobody cares right. I just…They don't care about interest rates unless they are buying a house. They don't care about houses unless they are buying a house. So that's me and it works for me. It doesn't mean it works for everybody else. And my colleague, Mr. Harris, has his hand up over there so I am gonna let him talk on that. I am gonna thank you Christian.  [Christian]: Alright. I am gonna play the devil's advocate here for a sec. What if someone…What if someone is listening and thinking “Well how do we know they're real estate agents there?” Where is the balance between letting someone know and being in sales and annoying when you talk about houses? [Nathan]: Because there is a way to be subtle about it. Like you know…like I don't…I just…like when I go to a closing the biggest thing that I do other than my hashtag that's on a separate entity but I check into a closing and I put “Doing a closing thing”. People know…I mean most people know, I don't want to say everybody, but they know that I am a realtor or that in some way I am doing that business. And there's other ways.  I don't know. I just don't want my social media feed filled with that crap and guess what I have taken the option of doing. I have taken the choice of filtering all that out. You know. It's that old advertisement. You don't like something on the TV change the channel. I have changed the channel. So… [Chris]: I think it all comes down to the message. Marketing is required. The marketing is the…it is the whole process of staying top of mind in our sphere but there are different ways that we can do it right.  So an example is, Nathan you just brought up rates. Your typical buyer doesn't care about the rate. Unless they're very savvy. They care about the payment. So if your post on social media “Up rates just jumped again” and all you talk about is the rate than that doesn't really provide any value to them. That your target audience may know that you have something to do with real estate but they're not really paying attention to that message.  On the other hand if you say “Rates just jumped again” so…and then you kind of put that in context and say “Well a $200.000 house now the payment went from on average about 12.000 to now about 13.000” that means something a little bit more that is easier for somebody outside of the industry to understand.  I think that marketing involves us putting ourselves in the potential client shoes. The shoes of the consumer, to understand what is important to them.  If you talk about due diligence right they don't care about due diligence. They buy a house once every 10 years. They don't need to know that stuff every day. They need to know what is going on in the community. Right.  Realtors should be the digital mayor of the community. They should be out there saying “Well we have these festivals going on. I'll see you there”. Or share a personal story that really somebody can resonate with that may reflect around what you do professionally that gives some sort of authenticity and come insight to show that you're human and that you're not just trying to sell them on something. Because that's…that's been the focal point for everything that we do. That's the idea behind client's centricity. Is putting their needs first. We need to do that in our marketing too.  [Christian]: I think you being up an interesting point. It's a lot of it comes down to marketing you know that is that. And in my experience yeah the majority of what is being peddled out there is marketing in real estate you know by franchises, by gurus, by trainers is pretty much the opposite of you know Joe Rants “Don't be annoying”.  You know they say “You gotta be top of mind”. And to them that's making your phone calls and pestering people and going online. And if you go “Oh by the way if you know anyone that can buy or sell a house” like everyone is taught to say that so everyone says it so no one…so it means nothing to no one. People are just like “Oh yeah that's what a realtor says” you know. It's like a stand up. You know that's bad marketing. That is low bar. I am not thinking I am just told to do this and I am gonna do it and supposedly that will give me result. They probably are not the results that you want.  [Chris]: I think you just hit the nail in the head there.  [Nathan]: I do too. [Chris]: Thinking. And that's the problem. If you're gonna market effectively you have to think about what the message is that is gonna solve the problem for your consumer. [Christian]: Well you have to start with who your consumer is. You know if it is the population that you asked well there is your first problem. Like that should not be your targeting market. You know. [Chris]: You've got different segments right. You've got …there might be an itch that you work. And that might be your thing to go after her whether that we based off of a previous profession, a hobby. Whether you're running or cycling or you just love giving back in the community and you're in the philanthropy space. You have geographic which is you can market based off of where you live and where you do business or you can go and just focus on something specific in real estate right.  If you focus on if you're in the equestrian market and you've grown up in the equestrian world and you understand horse ranches better than anybody else that is something that you can specifically market to but the fact is that no matter what you're marketing to, what segment that is you've gotta find out a way to provide value to them.  It's geographic. Share what's going on in the community. I can't tell you how many times I have heard that said, “Share what is going on in the community“ and how little people actually do it.  [Christian]: Yeah I mean even if you don't have all that figured out just be an interesting person [laughter]. I mean like I think like Peter Lorimer or something you know. Obviously he's got a big personality like British accent and stuff but like this guy has hands in everything. And it's all really interesting to watch or listen to. You know, and I get the impression he is trying to sell to me. Like it's always helping agents or you know “Look at this cool thing, this is what I am doing in my life right now”. Like it's never “Hey if you're looking to buy or sell you know in Los Angeles…” or whatever you know yeah I mean you could figure it out.  So going back to kind of our initial conversation about Joe Rants 3 things it's as you were giving that example you know you received a social message whatever it was. It is interesting that we have gotten you know most people think we are related to this. We've gotten so far along the hiatus to the sales pitch that they don't even pretend it's not a sales pitch. They just come up like “Hey I hope this isn't annoying to you” or “I hope this doesn't come off as spammy” [laughter] which really means “This is a standard sales pitch”. [Chris]: Yeah you know “I am about to annoy the hell out of you”. [Christian]: As if that's more authentic and will make it less salesly or you're more likely to you know like they think that that's they know that's a barrier and they think that admitting it will be less a barrier. When in reality that's just like “Oh thankfully I didn't read the whole message. Delete”. Just put it up front so I can delete quickly you know.  [Chris]: Definitely. I mean my response to him was” you know “You should have stuck with your gut. [laughter]. It was definitely spammy and annoying. And shouldn't have messaged me.” But agents do that all the time. Real estate agents they do the same thing that multi-level marketing people are doing. “Hey haven't talked to you in a while. Wanted to reach out and let you know I am in real estate now. Do you know anybody that is looking to buy or sell in the next you know 30-60-90 days”. Whatever it is.  Agents do that all the time and there's…it's actually really easy to not do that. Like if you meet somebody and they ask you what you do the first thing you're gonna say is “Real estate”. And they're just gonna come down and immediately ask you how the market is. That is the instantly question that the buyers or anybody that you meet are gonna ask you once they find out that you're in real estate. So what do most agents do? Well most agents the moment they get asked that question they say “The market is great. The market is great. When are you looking to move?” or “Are you looking to move?”. They immediately position themselves for the time share pitch. And that's the high pressure.  [Christian]: That's desperate. [Chris]: They come off as desperate. And the people that are on the opposite side they don't feel like they're on a conversation anymore. They feel like they're being cornered into becoming a lead. And people don't want to be considered a lead. They want to be considered you know their name and they don't want to be you know a prospect.  So a great way that that can be changed is instead of asking them “Well you know are you looking to buy or sell?”. “Who is your realtor?” “Oh I don't have a realtor I am not in the market”. “Oh great well not everybody is in the market at all time. So who do you call when you need to file your tax assessment? Who do you call when you're trying to figure out how much money you should spend on the renovation and you want to make sure that you don't get negative equity?” “Like these are kind of free services, they're complimentary services that we offer to everybody in the community as part of our company and I'd love to be able to be that person for you if you ever need to reach out. If some of these people end up using me to buy or sell some of us don't but it's not a big deal but we're here for you and we want to provide value”.  Doing something like that the conversation goes a whole different way. People have respect for you for not trying to sell them. They thing that you're a professional and that you don't need to beg for the business and it's just a different impression that we can leave on the people that we meet. [Nathan]:  That's just…it makes me think of this example of why we have a bad name. Next door you know the social site, right? OK right so somebody the other day posted “Hey I got friends looking to move in the neighborhood. If you know anybody looking to sell let me know.” Of course it got like 5 responses right. And one of those responses is somebody I know that is getting ready to least and bla bla bla. What they didn't realize as soon as they responded the person said “Well I am an agent and I've got clients looking in this area, what do you have and I'll let you…” It's the classic [censored] you know. They didn't have anything.  [Christian]: Switch.  [Nathan]: It was just the baiting switch. And my client was just like “Man that is so shady” and I was like “And people wonder why we have such a bad name. When you do [censored] like that it's just horrible”. I like…I wanted to message everybody in that thread and “Hey you do know this person is an agent and they're actually not looking for their family member, they're trying to find new clients. Like it's such a [censored] shady way to do things”.  [Christian]: Do you guys follow the broke agent? [Chris]: [laughter] Yeah on occasion.  [Nathan]: Yeah you're talking to him [laughter]. [Christian] Alright. You know there's a funny you know GIF meme he posted the other day. It was like it was a clip from one of The pirates of the Caribbean movies where Jack Sparrow is being chased across the beach by a mob, you know. It's like I think the subtext was like “You know when someone posts online about their selling their house and these agents just the mob of agents chasing them you know”. It's like pretty much sums it up. [Nathan]: Yeah they go “Opportunity oh my God lets start salivating and jumping over each other”. [Chris]: So lets talk about that. If someone posted online that they want an agent what do you do? [Christian]: They usually won't though. They're usually more cryptic like “I am moving to this area” or “I am fixing my house up to sell”. Like you…I mean no one goes out there and says “Hey I am looking for an agent”. [Chris]: Well like OK so whatever the message is whether that is cryptic or direct what do you do? [Christian]: Well usually there is over 150 replies by other desperate agents by the time I read it so I usually do nothing.   [Chris]: OK. Nate do you do anything on those posts? [Nathan]: It depends. And sometimes yes I will. But I try to spin it from what you said. What value I can give them upfront. And part of that I think it's just being honest you know. So…you know again if they choose you than great. I have never had it happen. Actually no. I take that back. I had person that I did speak with who actually didn't list their home but they appreciated that I was just honest. They felt that everybody reached out to him swung him some line of [censored] and I just told him what I felt. But we all know that's me so… [Chris]: Well you're good at that. So one of the things that has worked for me because I actually have gotten some business off of some of those posts. Everybody is gonna comment “Oh so and so is a great realtor. So and so is a great realtor”. What I have done in the past is I have reached out to them directly. Send them a private message.  [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: If I knew them personally I would send them an email or text. I would just say “Hey I saw your post online. I know you're gonna have a million people that are hounding you for business. Just be careful who you hire. Make sure you vet them properly. If you need anything just know that I am in real estate and…” Throw a couple of credential in there but just let them know that if they have any questions you know we're here to answer it.   I have had more conversations with people like that and I have received probably 6 or 7 referrals off of threads where people were like hundreds steep. I have received 6 or 7 of those referrals where I have messaged different agents and let them know the exact same thing. And people appreciate that. They don't like being sold. They don't like being pressured. And it's just a different environment. You get out of this competition thread and you get into this 1 on 1 message. And people like feeling like they're the center of the universe so you just make them feel that way.  [Nathan]: I agree.  [Chris]: Good so I like being right. [Christian]: So awkward silence yeah. How do you sum up this episode? What are your takeaways here other than don't be annoying? [Chris]: Yeah I mean we've gotta be careful with our message. It's so easy to get out there and just want to tell everybody that you're in real estate. But I think that agents need to put some thought behind what they're saying. And really think about how it's gonna come across to the people that they're delivering the message to.  We've talked about proving value throughout the history of the show. And I think that now more than ever that's gonna be more and more important. Especially with the rise of the high byer where they're getting ads saying “Hey it's so easy don't deal with all the hassle. Don't deal with being hounded by 100 agents when you comment online. Don't deal with staging or showing or any of that just let us sell it.” And people are so willing to avoid us and to avoid the showings and the solicitations that they're willing to give up 20-30% of the total value of their house just to not do that. And I think that that is absolutely insane. So we've got to shift our focus. Anything else guys? [Christian]: I would say if this is confusing to you as an agent forget everything that's you know your broker or the better agents told you about it in prospecting and hounding people and being top of mind. Just think to yourself “Hey would I like someone else to do this to me?”  If the answer is “No I don't want someone calling me pretending like they care about me just to ask if I am looking to buy or sell this year” well don't do it.  If you don't want someone knocking on your door without you inviting them over, don't [censored] do it. You know I mean like it's really not that hard. Stop making excuses about “Well this is my job and if I don't tell them or bug the [censored] out of people, if I am not annoying than I am not doing my job”. Well figure out how to do it not annoying or you will find another job to do.  [Chris]: And I'll just add on to that because calling is important. It's not to say “Don't call your prospects” but when you call them don't say “Hey do you…I can sell your house. I can do this”. [Nathan]: [laughter] Don't lead with that.  [Christian] Provide some value. Yeah. [Chris]: You know provide value. “Hey what can I do to help? I am sure you're getting a million calls right now” or “It's been a while since we've touched base. What…Where are you in the process?”. Make it about them. [Christian] Right and I will add. The value is not you calling them as an agent. You know I have had…I have seen online threads where basically an agent has been told their whole career to provide value but they don't know what that is. They think just them showing up is them providing value.  You know like it's…It reminds me of the scene from Office Space where you know the guy is being grilled like “What exactly did you say you do here?” “I AM A PEOPLE PERSON. WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THAT?!” [laughter]. “I PROVIDE VALUE. WHY CAN'T ANYONE SEE THAT?” Like you're probably not providing value if people can't see that. [Chris]: Exactly. [Nathan]: Amen. Cool.  [Chris]: Hey any final words? [Nathan]: No. Don't be annoying. I agree that what Christian said, if it would bother you than you probably shouldn't be doing that. Just what sounds like common sense is really not common sense or maybe is that whole adage of the easiest thing to do are the hardest things to get done.  [Chris]: I like it. Alright. Well everybody thank you so much for tuning into our 50th episode of Re:Think Real Estate. We appreciate you tuning in and listening. If you haven't yet please go to the website rtrepodcast.com. Subscribe so you never miss and episode and give us a 5 star review on iTunes and Google Play. We'll catch you next week. Cool.  [music] [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this weeks episode of the Re:Think Real Estate  Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch, K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

In this episode, Christian and Amy ask why white Evangelicals support Trump in such big numbers. As much as 77% of white Evangelicals support Trump. Why do they continue to support him? Do progressives share anything with Evangelicals besides the name Christian? They talk about the moral compromise and rationalization of supporting Trump, the perceived… Read more about The Moral Compromise of Supporting Trump

Dr. James Goll of Franklin, Tennessee is president of Encounters Network, an international outreach ministry. He has written 35 books, including his latest, Releasing Spiritual Gifts Today, which is the topic of this column. The book is published by Whitaker House publishers and is in the Christianity/Pentecostal & Charismatic categories. I like how his book is readable. While it covers deep theological matters, it is approachable for the average reader; one does not have to be a seminary student. The word “today” in the title Releasing Spiritual Gifts Today is important, Goll told me during an interview in June at the International Christian Retail Show. Goll said he first wrote the book and called it Releasing Spiritual Gifts. However, “It seemed flat.” He prayed and the word “‘today’ was just alive in me. And I go, ‘Oh my goodness. I have to rewrite this book.’ So in a three-day period I go through and I rewrote the book. And I brought in a lot more storyline, and I updated it with a ‘now tense’ which makes it more enjoyable reading as well as scripturally grounded.” Addressing spiritual gifts, Goll said, “I don’t believe spiritual gifts are limited to an elite group.” Galatians talks about such gifts as love, peace, patience and self control. If those are available to every believer, and Goll believes they are, then why aren’t the gifts of the Holy Spirit available to every Christian? They are, he said. “The Holy Spirit Himself, He is a gift of the Father and the Son.” Jesus said He would leave but send a helper. That helper is the Holy Spirit. Goll said he tries to weave together certain strands of truth every time he speaks or writes. First, it is biblically grounded. Releasing Spiritual Gifts Today has over 200 scriptural references. Second is precedence in Jewish and church history. He will give examples of a particular gift of the Holy Spirit as modeled in the life of Charles Spurgeon, for example. He also gives examples of people who are using the Holy Spirit's gifts today. Goll said another point to consider with gifts is that you do not only receive them, but you should release them, or share them. “A lot of people receive, but they leave their hands in their pockets. Jesus said you shall lay hands upon the sick” to heal. “As you sow you reap.” In other words, your gifts will be multiplied, he said, if you use the gifts you already have. “The more you give of what God has given to you there will be a multiplication.” In one chapter he lists out every single gift of the Holy Spirit mentioned in the Bible. His book talks about how people elevate some gifts above others. However, having one particular gift does not make a person a “super Christian.” Being faithful to your gift brings increase. Goll said he also encourages people not to place their identifies in their gifts, which can change over time, but to place their identity in Christ alone. There is much more in the book, but I willl not give it all away. For more information on Goll, go to jamesgoll.com or encountersnetwork.com. The book is available on Amazon or WhitakerHouse.com.