Mission-Driven

In the first episode of the Lighting the Way series, Maura Sweeney ‘07 speaks with Quinn Fitzgerald ‘11.  A mission-driven entrepreneur, Quinn co-founded a company in 2016 focused on creating products that provide a discreet lifeline to people in emergency situations. Her company, Flare, was sold in March 2023. In our conversation, we speak about Quinn's journey to becoming the co-founder of Flare and all of the impactful moments along the way. As someone committed to championing founders, survivors, entrepreneurs and students, Quinn is lighting the way for others to follow.   About the Lighting the Way Series: In September 1972, the first women enrolled at the College of the Holy Cross, lighting the way for generations to follow, women who would advance to create lives of personal and professional impact across all vocations across the globe, inspired by the foundation of a Jesuit, Catholic liberal arts education. The Mission-Driven: Lighting the Way podcast features College of the Holy Cross alumnae who are lighting the way for others today. Through their service, professional and personal pursuits, these women are living the Holy Cross mission and leaving a lasting impact on the lives of others. Interview originally recorded in May 2023.

In this final episode of Season three, Siobhan Kiernan from the class of 2021 speaks with Sean O'Connor from the class of 1992. As a fundraiser and member of the Holy Cross Annual Fund Team, Siobhan talks with Sean about his accomplished career in fundraising. Today, he continues to make a difference as the Chief Development Officer at the National Audubon Society. Their conversation gives you a behind-the-scenes look at what it takes to support the nonprofit organizations that we love. The Holy Cross mission of serving others is central to the work that they do. As people foreign with others, their careers modeled the idea of doing well while doing good. Interview originally recorded in August 2022. --- Sean: When I'm being reflective of the relationship between the effort and the work that I've applied my daily profession to the outcome, it completely aligns with my worldview of actually helping other people and helping organizations and helping the world. Whether it's through art, or healthcare or science or human rights or conservation, I feel pretty good about that. Maura: Welcome to Mission Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, from the class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. In this final episode of Season three, Siobhan Kiernan from the class of 2021 speaks with Sean O'Connor from the class of 1992. As a fundraiser and member of the Holy Cross Annual Fund Team, Siobhan talks with Sean about his accomplished career in fundraising. After a year in the Jesuit Volunteer Corps, Sean accepted a role raising funds for a small Catholic school on the Lower East Side of Manhattan. Thanks to the support and encouragement of some Holy Cross alumni, he accepted a position with CCS fundraising, which brought his fundraising overseas and greatly expanded the scope of his work. Today, he continues to make a difference as the Chief Development Officer at the National Audubon Society. Their conversation gives you a behind-the-scenes look at what it takes to support the nonprofit organizations that we love. The Holy Cross mission of serving others is central to the work that they do. As people foreign with others, their careers modeled the idea of doing well while doing good. Siobhan: Hello everyone. My name is Siobhan Kiernan and I am a 2021 Holy Cross grad, and current member of the Holy Cross Fund Team. And I'm joined here with Sean O'Connor. Hello, how are you? Sean: Hi Siobhan. Good to see you again. Siobhan: Yeah, you too. Where are you zooming from? Sean: I'm zooming from Goldens Bridge, New York, which is Northern Westchester County near Bedford and North Salem. Siobhan: Nice. Oh my gosh. I'm zooming from New York City, so... Sean: Oh wow. Whereabouts? Siobhan: In like little... I'm on the Upper East Side right now. It's where I grew up. Sean: Oh, that's right. I grew... For a while. I lived on 83rd and third when I did all this. Siobhan: Oh yes, we talked about this. Sean: Yeah, right. Siobhan: Oh, that's awesome. Are you from New York? Sean: No, I actually grew up in Worcester, Massachusetts where there's a school called Holy Cross, is there I think. And I in that way was born at St. Vincent Hospital and then grew up really in Holden, Massachusetts, which is just north of Worcester. And I went to Wachusett Regional High School. And I know your next question is why I don't have an accent, but for some reason I dropped the Worcester accent. When I went to Holy Cross, actually, ironically, I think my accent started to go away. Siobhan: They ironed it out of you. Sean: They must have ironed it out of me, yes. I could put on the Worcester accent, but only under severe pressure. Siobhan: That's so funny. I've been told that I don't have a New York accent either. Sean: No, you don't. Siobhan: So I guess there's something about Holy Cross and taking out accents. So you kind of really just started this, I guess, but why Holy Cross? I mean, I know you're from Worcester, but some people I know probably wouldn't have wanted to go to a school in their hometown. So why did you stay, and what about Holy Cross made you want to go there? Sean: It is a family school. For me, my grandfather was class of '31 and my father was class of '66. My uncle was class of '62. I think even have one of my other father's relatives went there. And so I always had heard about Holy Cross. And I lived on campus, I didn't commute even though I was about 10 miles away from Worcester, or from home rather. But it was obviously one of the most important decisions I made as a young person. And then probably, in truth, is probably the best school I got into when I was applying for colleges. That was another part as well. Siobhan: No, but that worked out. The one thing I love about Holy Cross is that you can feel very much away even if you are local. Sean: Right. Siobhan: I have friends who lived off campus and I remember I always lived on campus and my thought process was, you have your whole life to live outside the gates of Mt. St. James. Why would you want to go now? Sean: Right, for sure. But I enjoyed it. It was great. Siobhan: Yeah. So what was your time on campus? What did you do? What did you major in? What activities did you like to do? Sean: I was a history major, and I took my academics semi-seriously, I think. I'm a lifelong reader and I probably am still interested in history and read a lot of William Durant history surveys when I'm on the plane on a tarmac or something like that. So I still enjoy learning, but I spent a lot of time on extracurricular activities. I didn't play sports, and maybe once in a while would play a soccer pickup game if one existed. But I was involved in the radio station, I was the station manager for a year. Siobhan: Oh cool. Sean: And a DJ. And then I was involved, I think in one of the campus activity boards, I think my senior year. Is it called SS or something? I'm trying to remember then what the acronym was. Siobhan: Or is it CAB? I mean, today I think it's probably the equivalent. Sean: Something like that. I would put on concerts at Hogan. I did one concert. I think I almost got kicked off campus because I did not go through the proper channels of getting permits and things like that. So I learned a lot at college about doing things like that. We had a band called The Mighty, Mighty Boss Tones playing in the basement, which was a fun, legendary show. And then when I was at the station, radio station, we did a kind of benefit concert for the Worcester Coalition for the Homeless in Worcester. There was a band named Fugazi that we brought up to Worcester and did a show, which is fun. So we did some fun stuff connecting Worcester where I grew up to Holy Cross. I was also a resident assistant in the Mulledy basement. So yeah, it was a fun four years. Siobhan: Wow. So you mentioned you were a history major. I'm always curious, because I did economics, why history? And did you have a favorite class? Sean: I kind of go back and forth between really US history and European history or world history. And I did take an African history class, which is pretty influential. Professor David O'Brien was my advisor and he's kind of a labor and Catholic historian. And I still am interested in labor history. I can get really geeky I suppose, about history. I just really do enjoy it in terms of understanding patterns and issues and big issues that we're facing now as a country, and what are the historical analogs, and what has happened in the past that informs where you are right now. And all my family were English majors or our English majors. I think my daughter is an English, is going to become an English major, not a history major. My son was a poly sci major at Bucknell and a film major. But history is, I just enjoy it. And I go back and forth. I probably read more non-US history these days, but it's an escapism too for me. Dealing with everything else, it's kind of fun to read about the Age of Enlightenment or something like that, and just learn about different thinkers and different parts of history that you weren't aware of. And then if you get really excited, you can go deep on those things and get really geeky. Siobhan: I took one history class in Holy Cross, and I found that I almost felt like an investigator, like a detective, which as an economics major it is... That's a different way of thinking. So actually I have a lot of respect for the history department. Cause you very much have to tell a story, and really unpack documents and things. And I think that's... Sean: Yeah, for sure. Siobhan: And you mentioned your professor. I always love to hear about, because the school is so small and the community is so great. Is there anyone that comes to mind who had a meaningful impact on you at Hogan? Sean: Academically, David Chu, who is my accounting professor, and I just didn't do as well in accounting, but that taught me a lot about the importance of studying, actually. There was a professor Whall when I took my early survey class in history, which kind of awakened me to academic writing in a different way. And I lifeguarded at the pool, so got to hang out with the late Barry Parenteau who just passed away. And that was fun times there. And then some of the student life people, I think Dean Simon, I'm trying to remember his name, but he was the one that I worked with a little bit in my senior year. He was the Student Life Dean, if I remember correctly, out of Hogan. And then actually career advisors towards the end. I think one of the more influential people in my career, if we segue into that section, is this John Winters, who is there as a career advisor who really got me on the pathway of where I am right now. Siobhan: Oh, fabulous. Actually, that was a great segue. That was actually my next question was going to be, could you just take me through from commencement to where you are? Sean: Sure. Siobhan: Your journey. I did look into your bio a little bit and you had a very vast career so far, but I want to hear about it from you, your whole journey. Sean: So when I got out of school, I remember second semester, senior year, gosh knows what you're going to do. But I think I interviewed, think at some advertising agency, Leo Burnett, that has historically hired Holy Cross grads and did not get the interview. But I was able to go to Chicago for that all day interview, which was kind of fun. Get to stay in the fancy hotel for the first time. And then when I got out of school I ended up going to Jesuit Volunteer Corps. So I did the Jesuit Volunteer Corps in the northwest and was stationed, or placed, I guess is the language in Auburn, Washington, which is between Seattle and Tacoma. And my placement, or my job, the volunteer job was working at a residential youth shelter for physically and sexually abused kids. And I was doing that for a year. And so my job was to take to care of them, drive them to school, make them dinner, take them on field trips, and then talk to them. And then, learning what it meant to be a social worker and would write about my day and my interactions to help the therapists and the psychologists who are helping them connect the dots about what issues they were facing. They were typically there for a couple of weeks. It was transitional short term, before they might have been between foster placements or they might have been just removed from the home. And the state was trying to figure out what to do with them. So it was a very eye-opening experience, making $20 a week living in a community in the Jesuit Volunteer Corps. But that moment I was actually really interested in understanding how nonprofits were financed. I was like, all right, so how did they actually get the money to do the work? How does it actually work? So I was able to understand a little bit about the particular organization I was volunteering at. It was called Auburn Youth Resources. And they would receive a lot of money from the King County, which is the local county outside of Seattle. But the philanthropy piece, that people would give them money was relatively small. And anyways, it was, it's an opportunity for me to think about that. I wanted to do good but also do well. And I think a lot of this has to do with Holy Cross, but also that my parents or both teachers. My brother's a teacher, my sister's a teacher, my other sister who went to Holy Cross works in nonprofits as well, she was class of '95. So I think that, my family upbringing and combined with Holy Cross in terms of its ethos of men and women for others, I think really kind of pushed me into this career, which wasn't really a career back then. I don't know if you want me to keep going, but when I got back from the year of volunteer work and I came back to the East Coast, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I lived in Worcester, outside of Worcester. I thought I wanted to move to Boston where, because I was nearby that was a big city, or move to Washington DC where a lot of my roommates were and friends. But John Winter in the Career Center said, did you ever think about development? And I said, what's development? And we talked more about it, what that actually meant. And he connected me with a guy named Pat Cunningham, who I think is class of '85. And Pat Cunningham worked in New York City, and at the time he worked for the Archdiocese of New York. And the program there was that they were trying to help small Catholic parochial schools become sustainable. So small Catholic schools in New York City were always a big deal for helping teach kids and families who didn't have a lot of money, but get a good education. The outcomes were terrific. Typically, a lot of the kids went on to college. But the financial model was becoming challenging, because the religious communities who would tend to teach at those schools was diminishing. So they would have to hire lay teachers, you don't have to pay a Sister as much as you have to pay a layperson. So I think that caused like, oh my goodness, tuition is not covering the cost. And so they were trying to figure out a way could they raise money? Like private high schools, like St. John's in Shrewsbury or St. John's in Danvers, as BC High or Notre Dame Academy, they tend to raise money from their alums or parents. Pat Cunningham's job was to figure that out with some parochial schools in New York. There was a philanthropist who just passed away a couple of years ago, a guy named Richard Gilder, who was a Jewish, who founded a company Gilder, Gagnon, & Howe. Anyways, he believed in Catholic education and funded a lot of these schools. He believed in the outcomes and giving back in the community. And so he was essentially underwriting director and development positions. So the salary that a director of development would require. So there was an opportunity for me to work at a school called St. Columba Elementary School, which is on 25th between eighth and ninth without any experience at 23 years old. Siobhan: Is it still there? Sean: It is still there. But unfortunately, the school is closed and is now probably a private or a charter school. It Is the school... Had a couple famous alums, Whoopi Goldberg, graduated from... it's the school Whoopi Goldberg graduated from St. Columba, and as well as a singer from the sixties and seventies, Tony Orlando went to St. Colo. He's a guy who sang Tie A Yellow Ribbon and Knock Three Times. You ever hear those songs? No. Knock three times on the ceiling. Siobhan: Maybe. Sean: Yeah. I don't want to sing it. So what I had to do is work with the sisters and figure out a way to help raise money. And I learned a ton. It was fun. I started talking to some of the colleagues who were doing the similar work in the city, and we created a consortium of colleagues, I think we called it ourselves development, gosh, I forgot what we called it. Ourselves like Development Resources, Development Resource Group, I think DRG maybe. In any case, we would meet and just try to do some brainstorming and figure out how to solve problems. And we actually got some funding to actually help our little mini consortium. And I was there for about a year. It was fun. Siobhan: And then I know that you also did some foundation work, correct? Sean: Yeah. So after what? So I was doing that for a year, and then I had heard about this big company called CCS Fundraising and it's called... At the time it was called Community Counseling Service. And it's still around. It's a big, big fundraising company. And at the time, back when I was there, it's probably quadrupled since I was working there. Any case, we didn't have any money at St. Columba for professional development. So there was this big conference in New York called Fundraising Day in New York. And it is held every, it's the third Friday of June every year. So it's like a one day, it's one of the biggest fundraising conferences in New York. But to go to it, you know, it's like $600 or something like that. And we didn't have any money at St. Columba to do that. And so there was a scholarship opportunity. So if I wrote an essay to the committee that they would send scholarships out. So I wrote an essay to the committee and they underwrote my admission. So I was able to go to the event. And at the event I ran into an executive at CCS Fundraising and talked to him. He encouraged me to apply to CCS, which I did. And then I got a job with CCS Fundraising, which really did change my career for the good. And they sent me all around the world and helped train me in fundraising. And it was great. I was there for a long, long time. And that's where I did do some foundation work. So to continue on that, so when I got to CCS, I went to Yorkshire, England to do some work for the Diocese of Leeds and raise money there. So essentially CCS as a company that would get hired by nonprofits to actually help them raise money. Siobhan: Like a consultant. Sean: A hundred percent like a consultant. And it's weird because you'd be 24 years old or 25 years old and you're a consultant. And I remember a lot of my family friends is like, what do you know? You're just a kid. And there was a lot of truth in that, because I didn't know what I was doing. But the way the model worked at CCS was that they would train you, and there was actually different levels of consulting. And actually modern consulting firms like McKinsey have a similar model where you have the partners who are the thought leaders, and the business development people who actually find the clients. And they just need people to do the work. And those are the directors, the associate directors who essentially just took direction from the leadership. And in the case of going to the Diocese of Leeds, my charge was to work with parishes and coordinate, manage, design and execute what I would call mini-campaigns for each of those parishes. So I would go to the priest, I would orient the priest on the plan, we'd recruit a leadership team and go out and raise money. It was a very, very difficult assignment, but I learned a lot about resilience and persuasion and problem-solving and persistence and all that stuff, because it was a very intense five or six months. But it was fun. Get to live in Yorkshire in the middle of the winter when you're 24, 25 years old. That was great. Siobhan: I was going to say, that also just sounds really cool because you kind of get to dabble in so many different types of advancement. I know in development, I remember when I first learned about it, I was like, oh, that's like for schools. And I'm like, wait, no. There's fundraising for hospitals and political campaigns and nature organizations, which I want to get to eventually. Sean: And human rights organizations or arts and cultural groups. I think that that's a really good point, Siobhan, because where I got really lucky was that I, and it really serves me well right now at this stage in my career that I have a very diverse set of experiences and what we call multi-sector kind of experience. I'm not just a higher ed fundraiser, I've done every single type of nonprofit fundraising. And when you do that, you get to see where the commonalities are, and what the challenges are. Everything from a museum on Japanese sculptor named Isamu Noguchi, or to Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory in Long Island, with Dr. Watson, who just basically discovered DNA. So I've been very blessed with having been exposed, and working with very different kinds of organizations. And I know that at this point in my life, there's not a lot of people who have that kind of experience. And so that kind of becomes my professional marker, I guess. So the person who's done a lot of big complex organizations, but also a lot of small organizations too. Siobhan: So I have two questions on that. The first is, it's a soft question. In all of those different types of fundraising, which was your favorite, I guess what kind of fundraising was most enjoyable for you? Sean: I do the arts and cultural world because I find the board and the people to be very interesting and fun to work with. It is perhaps the hardest sector to work on because a lot of what we do is 400 billion is given away by people and corporations and foundations every year. And the top sector, it's religion, is probably the largest recipient of philanthropy, healthcare and education come in pretty close after that. So you're going to get a lot, it's not saying it's easier to raise money in higher ed, in healthcare, but in some ways it is because in healthcare it typically centers around solving a problem or the so-called grateful patient. "Dr X saved my life, I'm going to give him all my money or a lot of my money" and higher education is "professor Y saved my life and got me on the right path, so I'm going to give money there." Arts and cultural tends to be not necessarily the top priority people. It could be second or third or maybe sometimes fourth. And so it's harder sometimes, but I find it to be more interesting. And then in terms of my most enjoyable experience, probably when I worked in London again in 2000, when I got to do some work with the International Accounting Standards Board, which sounds very boring, but the job was very exciting because what the job was, was to raise money for an organization that was trying to harmonize accounting standards around the world. Siobhan: Oh, cool. Sean: I got to travel around Europe to actually interview executives on their willingness to support this cause, this kind of new plan. And it was just fun working on that kind of scale. One of the great things about this, that I've enjoyed about my career is that I have to learn about every kind of thing. I'm not an expert on accounting, but I have to be able to have a conversation about it. I'm not an expert on art museums, but I have to be able to at least have a conversation about it. And here at Audubon, I'm not an ornithologist, but I have to be able to talk about climate change and the importance of eelgrass in San Francisco Bay. Because what I'm doing is representing these organizations, and serving as the middle person between philanthropy and good causes. And that's on thing I think my profession's about. It's not about asking for money, in a weird way. It's really about creating an environment where you create opportunities for people who have money, who want to give away money, to do it in a way that they feel comfortable doing it. Siobhan: No, I feel the same way, especially in connecting with alums. It's not about asking them for money. It's about what did you love about Holy Cross and how can you support that again? Sean: Exactly. Siobhan: But you mentioned Audubon. And I just, so again, with advancement just being so vast, if I'm being honest, I didn't know that such an organization existed. When I saw that that's where you work, I was like, oh my God, of course that would exist. Sean: I'm going to have to do more work then, Siobhan to make sure you hear about this. Siobhan: But it makes sense. Birds are so important, and the environment is such, no pun intended, but a hot topic right now. But how did you, I guess, find that organization and what brought you there? Sean: Yeah. Siobhan: Is that one of your passions too? Is the environment something that strikes... Sean: It is, I think certainly climate change and birds over time. The truth is that they found me and reached out to me. And then, right now at this stage of my career, I think when I was a little younger... And I have some advice about careers too, but, and this is what I share with people, is that you really do want to go to a place where the people, you kind of vibe with the people that you're going to work with. I think mission is very important, but as you're building a career, it's very important to find people that believe in you, give you the resources to be successful in where you can learn. At Audubon, at this stage of my career, because I have a leadership role, I can control some of those things. I can control the type of culture I'm trying to create with my team, and which I think is very, very important for fundraisers. For fundraisers to stay, is actually understanding what makes motivates fundraisers and what motivates development. Because I think a lot of this is, there's some similar aspects I think to a really good fundraising personality. But Audubon, I think the reason why I'm here is because they wanted to grow. And one of the things I've learned about my career recently is that there's some people who are comfortable in a status quo environment. And then there's some people who just like to build things. And I'm certainly in the ladder, and part of this is because of my consulting background. I like to solve problems, and figure out a way to grow. I know that sounds like every organization wants to do that, but not necessarily. Because I think in order to do that, there has to be an alignment between the board and the leadership of the organization, and actually a really good case of why growth is needed. And then of course they need to invest. So you need to spend money to raise money. All those elements were in place when I was talking to Audubon about five and a half years ago with leadership. So if I see alignment between the Chair of the Board and the CEO, and if they kind of align with the Chief Development Officer or the person who's in charge of raising money, that's when really great things can happen. Because this is never, in my view, a money issue. There's plenty of money in this world right now. This is always a strategy problem. How are we getting the money? How are we telling our story? Do we have the mechanical pieces in place? Do we have the right people? Are they trained? Do we have the right leadership in place? Those are the things that staff ultimately control. And if they are in the right spot, and doing it the right way, the money should come. It's very difficult to get all that stuff figured out. And that's really, at the end of the day, that's what the work is. Is that I think good fundraisers have a vision for what the word will look like or feel like. At any given day, I know what kind of meeting I'm trying to design between a board member and my CEO, and I know what I want them to say and I know who I want in the room. So I'm always trying to get to that point. Not as easy as it sounds, because it just takes time to get all those things in place, and to make sure that the conversation's happening. And making sure you have answers to all the questions that funders want. So for instance, at Audubon we're... Bezos gives a wait a lot of money for climate, we spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to make that approach happen the right way. I don't want need to digress, but that's a lot of it how I think of it. Siobhan: No, and that's awesome. Actually, so I have a few questions that are going in different directions, so I'll see if I can loop them all together. So the first one is, I guess, what keeps you in this work? What drives your day? What kept your passion in the work that you're doing? Sean: Well, yeah, there were times, I remember in 2000, 2001 during the first dot com boom, I remember I would've been about 30 or so, there was a lot of people in my peer group trying to go to dotcom and early in internet stage companies. And I did talk to some people, this is after I got back from London. And I remember talking to some, what I would call philtech. Phil, P H I L technology, so philanthropy technology companies that were starting at that time and ultimately did not pursue them. And then on occasion, during the late two thousands or before the 2008 recession, could I parlay this experience into some kind of for-profit thing? I think ultimately, what kept me is, which is what you hear when you hear people give career advice when you're younger is, and I think there's a lot of truth to this, is if you actually like what you do and eventually you become good at it, then everything else takes care of itself. So I really do like what I'm doing, and I've become pretty good at it. And so then everything else takes care of itself. And being intentional about the different moves you make. And because designing a career is... I'm not saying it's a full-time job, but you cannot approach that casually. You have to be attainable about it. And what I mean by that is that whenever you go to an organization, and it doesn't really matter what sector we're talking about, but certainly in the fundraising sector, you want to understand not only how you're going to be successful there, but what will it lead to? What if you're successful at XYZ organization, will it give you an opportunity to grow within the organization or maybe even go to another organization, that type of thing. Depending on what you ultimately want to do. You don't have to become a Chief Development Officer. You can become the best frontline fundraiser in an area that you really, really love. And that's the great thing about this sector is that there's a lot of different diverse job functions. You have the development operations side, which is very much oriented towards tech people and people who are data-driven. The foundation relations kind of world, which really solid writers do well in that sector or that section of the work. And then frontline fundraisers are really usually a kind of sales salesperson orientation. Siobhan: I was going to say, as someone who is on the soliciting end of things, I feel like I'm a salesperson for Holy Cross, which I love because as someone, and you get this as someone who benefited from the product, it almost makes the job easy. But I was curious, so as someone, you weren't on both ends of the spectrum, so the soliciting side, which we've said isn't all about asking for money, but sometimes it comes down to, okay, here's my wallet. And then also the giving away of money. How would you, I guess, compare those roles? Because right now, as someone who's just starting out, I find the idea of grant giving and the other side of the work to be intriguing. Sean: It is intriguing. So my experience and foundations, I did some work with the MacArthur Foundation and the Gates Foundation, both those opportunities, I got to obviously work closely with them to understand more how they work. And over my career, I've got to work closely with some foundations. And over my career, I've probably felt the same thing that you're feeling, oh, it would be fun to get away money. But it's funny, they kind of have the same challenges in some ways because they... And I think that that actually helps you become a good fundraiser with foundations. To kind of boil this down, everyone has a job and everyone has to do things. So if you're a foundation officer, you have to do things, you have to give away money. And it is hard to give away money, because you're going to be evaluated on how the partnerships that you developed, did you squander the money or did you give the money away smartly? And if you gave the money away, did you do a good job following up in a and actually evaluating their efficacy? And that is hard. And there's a lot of pressure. And so if you orient yourself as a, now I'm going on the solicitor side, if you orient yourself to, I'm going to make this person's life easier, then you're talking to them like a person and you're creating a partnership. How can I help you with your job, or what you have to do? We're a good organization, we're going to communicate with you, we're going to spend your money the right way. Then it's a great thing. So you're not really asking them for money, you're really creating a partnership. And I think that that makes all the things in the world. But then if you think about designing strategies for a billionaire who wants to, some billionaire from Holy Cross calls you Siobhan and said, Siobhan, I want you to run a foundation for me and figure out... I want to give away money to human rights organizations and arts organizations in South America, and I'm going to give you a budget and you figure it out. So what would you do? You would probably start creating a network. You would go travel and see some, understand the issue. Go to South America, go visit museums, create a network of people, and then start to give away money. Yes, that would be fun. That would be really fun. But going to a big foundation and running a program, you do have to be a subject matter expert. Oftentimes, not all the time, because now there are a lot of foundations out there that I've been encountering that will hire a friend, someone they trust to actually help them with their foundation. I met this foundation recently where, all of a sudden they found themselves with a whole lot of money and they wanted to create this foundation because that's what the estate had directed them to do. And they're going to find the person that they trust. And so sometimes that person's not a subject matter expert, but they're a trusted advisor to the family. But if you're a subject matter expert in human rights, you're coming at it from a different direction. You're an academic that goes into a foundation. But I do think it's a growing, obviously a growing field as the wealth inequality continues to increase. I'll just give you a little tidbit on, this is one of my favorite facts. When I started in the business, mid-nineties, I would always go to the Hudson News in Grand Central and buy the Forbes 400, which would come out, I guess it would come on the fall. I'm trying to remember when it did. But I always loved that because I would go home on the train and just read it, and learn about the families who had wealth. And I quickly learned that not everybody, wealth and philanthropy are not the same thing. People with money and people who are philanthropic, there's like a Venn diagram in the middle. But to be the four hundredth, wealthiest person on that list, right back in the mid-nineties, the net worth was 400 million or something like that. It's a lot of money. What do you think it is today? Siobhan: It's more. Because I feel like... I was going to say, I feel like, because nowadays, and maybe it's because I work in fundraising, a million dollars doesn't seem like that much money anymore. Sean: Something like 1.7 billion. Siobhan: I was going to say at least a billion dollars. Sean: So why that's extraordinary. Not only how much it's gone up. Might be 1.4, but I know it's something like that. There's a whole lot of people below that. We don't even know who those people are. Siobhan: Wow. Sean: They're not necessarily publicly known. So the amount of people... It used to be rather, you used to be able to understand where the wealth was. And now I think you just don't, A very interesting world we live in now in terms of the relationship between wealth, philanthropy, and our business. There's a lot of new philanthropists coming on board that are coming out of the nowhere, partly because they're just not as well known. It's just more. There's more opportunity. That's why we're not really at a wealthy, it's not about money, it's about strategy. Siobhan: I was also going to say, I find... At least I can relate to least the capacity because sometimes, you use all the data that you have and you assume that someone has this profile, but you could either be over assuming, but then you could also be easily under assuming too. There are probably people that you don't think they would give maybe over a thousand dollars. But if you go about it, as you were saying, strategy, if you talk to them, if they're into music and you talk to them about the new performing arts center, you might inspire their generosity more than if you're talking to them about a new basketball court. Sean: I think that that's a hundred percent right. And I think, that's why I think it sounds a little old school. I think research can be a little overdone. I love research by the way. I think that my research team, they call me an, I'm an honorary researcher because on occasion, if I'm sitting in front of the TV or something like that, I'll go deep on some name and I just love finding these little nuggets of information. I'll send our director of prospect research these random emails. I said, look into this, look into that. Because at least at Audubon, I'm looking into people who care about climate, who care about birds, who care about... Siobhan: Again, that is so unique. Sean: Well, there's one, if you look on... Here's one of the cool things about birds besides the fact they're cool. If you go to... The Fish and Wildlife Service did a report on one of the most common outdoor activity, obviously gardening is actually probably the top. Birding is actually second or so. They estimate over 40 million people at one point in their life have gone out and watched birds, whether it's in their backyard or something like that. It's an awful lot of people. Siobhan: It is a lot of people. That's a fun fact. Sean: Yeah, it drives our work for sure. And we're doing this cool thing. This is kind of a little bit out of sequence, but we have this thing called Bird Song, which is this project we're doing. In fact, you can look on Spotify, and this has been in the New York Times. A music supervisor, a guy named Randall Poster who works with Wes Anderson and Martin Scorsese approached Audubon, and he got the bird bug over the pandemic because he was at home and listening to birds. He approached all of his musician friends, people like Jarvis Cocker and Yo-Yo Ma and Yoko Ono and Karen O and Beck to do songs inspired by Bird Song. And so he has 180 tracks. He's also asked his actor friends like Liam Neeson and Matthew McConaughey and Adrien Brody to read poems that are about birds, including a bird poem written by another Holy Cross alum, Billy Collins, who is a poet who wrote a poem about sandhill cranes in Nebraska. He has Conor Oberst from Bright Eyes reading that poem. Anyways, there's going to be a big album, a box set release, and all the money's going to go to Audubon. Siobhan: That's awesome. Sean: Birds are having a moment. Siobhan: Birds are having a moment. It's a bird's world and we're just living in it. Sean: It is. That's a good way of putting it, I'm going to borrow that. Siobhan: You can totally, as long as you give me copyright credit. Sean: I'll absolutely give you copyright, and all the royalties. Siobhan: Exactly. And I do want to just be cognizant of time, but as the podcast is about Holy Cross's mission and how it influenced your life, and I know you did talk about this a little bit at the beginning. I just wanted to hear more about how Holy Cross impacted your life and your work, and maybe Holy Cross' mission in addition to being men and women for others. Sean: I found a profession that I think in the beginning it might not have made sense, but I have to tell you now, at my age, there's a lot of people, a lot of friends who went to all lacrosse and other places are some ways jealous of this career because... So I have this ability to do well and do good. Use persuasion techniques or skills that could be implied to advertising or banking or some other sales job. But when I'm being reflective of the relationship between the effort and the work that I've applied my daily profession to the outcome, it completely aligns with my worldview of actually helping other people and helping organizations and helping the world, whether it's through art or healthcare or science or human rights or conservation. I feel pretty good about that. And I also feel very fortunate because I don't think I'd be in this profession if it wasn't for Holy Cross, partly because combined with how I was raised and also Holy Cross reinforcing some of those values and elevating them. And then, really the specific moment when Jonathan Winters actually said, hey, you should look into this job. And really made the connection between me as a recent alum and an opportunity with another Holy Cross person. So if Pat Cunningham's listening to this podcast, and I reach out to him once in a while, was a very influential person in terms of where I'm at right now, and I'm very grateful for that. So it's a fun profession. I encourage, I do a lot of connecting with other Holy Cross grads that have helped people. And there's a lot of Holy Cross people that I've met who are in this business, and you try to get together. Because I think there's a really interesting theme here in terms of what we do. And a lot of us are doing, in pretty good organizations, doing really, really good work. So celebrating that as a profession would be fun to do. I actually, Danita Wickwire, who is class of '94 joined my team recently. Which is incredible, because I told her, she reminds me a little bit of why I'm in this profession. Because if you go into this world of fundraising, it's hard to keep up with everything. But then, because she's here and because of our common history at Holy Cross, it's nice to have her because we were able to align around that a lot. And I think she participated in one of these podcasts as well. And she's a really, really influential and important leader in this space as well. Siobhan: Oh, that's awesome. She is an outstanding volunteer and name in our office. So our office is a big fan of Danita, she's great. Also, what I really like too that you said is, I don't know, I find that the job doesn't really feel like work and it's comforting to hear that doesn't change. Sean: It doesn't really. No, it doesn't change. I mean, listen, it's not saying it's easy all the time, but it's certainly fun. Siobhan: And then I guess you kind of touched upon this, but for someone starting out in this work, what is some advice you would give? And then I guess also, looking back on your journey that got you here, is there anything that you would've done differently? Sean: I don't think I have any regrets about choices I've made, also philosophically don't believe in that because I don't think it's helpful. But I think in terms of advice, I do think, and I know this sounds slightly cynical, so I soften this a little bit, but I really do feel it's important to go to a place where your boss and your colleagues believe and align with how you think about this work. I think often, sometimes I see folks make a mistake going to an organization for the mission only, and then what ends up happening sometimes, not all the time, is that the expectations aren't there. And then it can really be a hard place to be. One of the hardest things about this business is... It's a very optimistic, enthusiastic person, but I also know how hard this is and things can go wrong, and you might not have control over certain things. And so educating non-fundraisers, or orienting them about how this work actually unfolds happens with experience. So I'm able to do that with a little bit more ease than I did when I was younger. But be very intentional about your career. If you have a lot of the elements in place, that's great. If you're able to grow, that's great. Don't go for the money, so to speak, or for the mission, make sure everything else is in place. That's my advice. Siobhan: That's very deep. I think that's applicable to anything too. Sean: It is. But I remember, I give a lot of career advice and sometimes I see people, it looks really good, but you got to ask all the right questions, make sure you're asking the questions so you have it all figured out. Siobhan: Yeah. Then I guess, is there any type of organization that you haven't worked with yet that you'd want to? You said you've worked with most of them, but is there anything that maybe in your journey that you've seen... Sean: I was in Columbia last week, the country, because we do a lot of work hemispherically, so I was in Bogota and Cali. I really enjoy, where I think this is headed, and maybe it would be fun, is like this orientation about raising money in other parts of the world. I've done it before, I've done it in England, and it's different in every country and it's evolving and this cultural barriers of this and all that stuff. But I like the way the globalization in terms of how we're thinking about the NGO, bottom up. And also the importance of diversifying our space. Our profession has to be more intentional about how to do that and create space and opportunities for people of color and other backgrounds because there's a lot of history and reasons why it is what it is. And we have to continue to try to figure out ways to open up doors and opportunities that are just not going to happen naturally. You have to be forceful about that. So any place that is in that space. You know what, the weird thing about this space, and I talked to Ron Lawson about this, who's a Chief Operating Officer of a coalition, homeless coalition in New York. It's in a weird way, it's really hard to raise private philanthropy for some social justice issues like homelessness and hunger. Hunger, not as much as it used to be. But I'm always curious about why that is. And there are some organizations that kind of outperform. There's so much money that's given away and there's some sectors that are just not there yet. And that would be fun to understand more why that's happening and help with that too. Siobhan: Cool. I just wanted to see where you were headed next. Sean: I don't know. Siobhan: Nonprofit. Sean: Yeah, it's fun. I'm glad you're in this space and you should keep in touch, Siobhan, it'd be fun to see where your career's going to take you. Siobhan: I was going to say, I'll have you on speed dial. Sean: Good. Awesome. Siobhan: Awesome. And before I let you go, I just wanted to end on a fun little speed Holy Cross round. Sean: Sure. Siobhan: Very quick. Okay. What was your freshman dorm? Sean: Mulledy Siobhan: What was your hardest class? Sean: That economics class with Professor Chu. No, actually accounting class with Professor Chu. Yeah. Siobhan: Nice. Best professor you've ever had? Sean: Probably Professor Chu Siobhan: I see him sometimes, so I'll be sure to let him know. Sean: I think he just retired actually. I thought I just saw that he's retiring soon. Siobhan: He is, but he has his little research. Sean: Yeah, you can tell him that. Tell him, gave him a shout-out. I think I was, it might have been... That was his first year he got here, I think. Siobhan: Oh, that's so funny. Senior dorm? Sean: Carlin. Siobhan: Oh, nice. Sean: Yeah, Carlin Siobhan: Favorite spot on campus? Sean: I guess I liked the radio station. That was a great place to escape. Siobhan: Oh, cute. First meal you think of when you think of Kimball. Sean: Ah, that's good. Probably just like chicken fingers, I guess. They actually existed, I think that they did. Or that Turkey. There's like some kind of Turkey meal that was good there. Siobhan: Oh my goodness. The Thanksgiving Turkey dinner slaps. Best restaurant in Worcester. This is good because you're a local. Sean: Yeah, well the best restaurant right now that I was just like, wow, this is a pretty good restaurant. There's that sushi place on Park Avenue is really, really good actually. And then when I was there, I guess Arturo's was a great Italian place, but that's not, I think that's closed now. Best Breakfast place is probably Lou Roc's on West Boylston Street, which is a really, really good diner. Siobhan: Good to know. Everyone always talks about Miss Worcester's, I'll have to... Sean: Miss Worcester's is good, but Lou Roc's is a little further out, but it's excellent, excellent. Yeah. Siobhan: Oh, fabulous. All right. Your go-to study spot? Sean: The Library right side, as you're walking on the right side. Yeah, not the left side. Siobhan: Okay. And if you were going to campus right now, where are you going first? Sean: I am going to check out this new performing arts center which is the coolest looking building in Worcester, I think. Siobhan: Right? It kind of looks like an airport, but in a good way. Sean: It's a very cool, it's one of the coolest architecture buildings I've seen. And it's certainly one of the coolest things in Worcester. I think it's awesome. I want to go inside it. Siobhan: And then last question, your fondest Holy Cross memory. Sean: Fondest Holy Cross memory? Oh, I don't know. I really enjoy fall at Holy Cross. That's what I enjoyed the most. Yeah, and I like fall in Worcester. Yeah, for sure. Siobhan: That's a good answer. Sean: Yeah. Siobhan: Especially fall at Holy Cross is beautiful. Sean: Yeah, like a football game in the fall. That's probably it. Siobhan: Nice. Wow. Thank you so much for chatting with me. Sean: Thanks Siobhan. Siobhan: Taking the time out of your today. Sean: That was great, thanks. Thanks for the opportunity. Maura Sweeney: That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be people for and with others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone would like to be featured on this podcast, then please send us an email at alumnicareers.holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcast. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, "Now go forth and set the world on fire." Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

In this episode, Colman Benson from the class of 2024 speaks with James Scott from the class of 1995. They connected back in the fall of 2022 to speak about James' path from Ohio to Holy Cross to the Marine Corps, culminating in his current career in banking. They speak about how a clever marketing commercial changed the course of James's career path and how you're never too old to reinvent yourself. What's even better, the friends you make on the Hill and the Holy Cross Alumni Network will always be there to support you on your journey. Interview originally recorded in December 2022. --- James: Two skill sets there will never be a shortage of, at least not in our country, and that's storytelling and problem solving. Those are the two skill sets that you'll never have a shortage of in terms of the workforce. You can do those two things, you can do them well. You can do just about anything you want in the industry that you want. And sky's the limit. Maura: Welcome to Mission Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, from the class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. In this episode, Colman Benson from the class of 2024 speaks with James Scott from the class of 1995. They connected back in the fall of 2022 to speak about James' path from Ohio to Holy Cross to the Marine Corps, culminating in his current career in banking. They speak about how a clever marketing commercial changed the course of James's career path and how you're never too old to reinvent yourself. After 20 years of service in the Marine Corps, James chose to try something new and tackle a different challenge in his career. He landed in banking, first with Santander Bank and now as Vice President, Business Relationship Manager at Bank of America. The good news is that no matter what you choose to do, the core skills you learn at Holy Cross remain relevant. What's even better, the friends you make on the Hill and the Holy Cross Alumni Network will always be there to support you on your journey. Colman: Thank you for joining us. James: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me, Colman. So once you reached out to me, it was one of those callings where I felt like, hey, any conversation helps anybody, my words, my journey, give somebody some type of inspiration, I'm all for it, right? So anyway to give back to the Hill, I do what I can, whether it's small or medium or as big as it can be. Colman: Very excited to be interviewing today. Just a little bit about your Holy Cross experience. I know that you were part of the football and the track team, and I think that was the last undefeated football team until this year, the team of 1991. So can you just describe your time as a student on the Hill and what you enjoyed in some of your extracurricular activities? James: I'm a graduate of 1995 Holy Cross, not Catholic, not from New England, certainly not from Massachusetts. So my journey began out in the Midwest in Ohio, and then my connection quickly with Holy Cross became through a coach who was recruiting out in Ohio, recruiting football players. And I happened to be on the radar and took a flight out to Boston. Now, this is where it gets kind of a little interesting because I actually thought Holy Cross was in Boston the way they gave me the tour, kind of showed me along the Charles River and all through downtown. So I got super excited and then I guess I got distracted. I fell asleep on the ride from Boston to Worcester. Next thing you know, I'm on this beautiful campus. So right away, I just had a connection with players at that time. Met a couple of professors. Very good friend of mine at the time was Margaret Freije. And so that was almost instantaneous connection. I flew back home, excited to tell my dad that I think I found the college of choice, leaving Ohio, wanted to end up in Massachusetts and then ended up showing up on campus. And then we'll talk a little bit more about that initial experience once I got on campus as an official student at the school. But again, that journey was something totally unexpected, totally culture shock to me, especially back in the nineties. So it just took a little bit of time for me to acclimate and get adjusted to a new environment, a new situation. But having sports was again one of those avenues, those channels that kind of gave me an out to express myself and get away and get away from the differences and cultures that I had with the majority of the student population, but allowed me to focus on something with other people who had similar interests to me, which is sports, competition and winning. So kind of a little bit of background about my journey on how I ended up at Holy Cross. Colman: Awesome, thank you very much. Funny, funny tricks they'll do for recruiting, but I just had a question. I know you were a math major. Was there any reason you decided to pick math? Did you think about maybe a future career in mathematics or a future career in business? As I know a lot of Holy Cross grads will choose econ or math and eventually end up in business. James: Fair question, but neither of those answers are anywhere close. There's no method to the math. I had a love affair with mathematics in high school. It was something I was really good at. Logic just seems to fit with me. So coming into college, again, the first college graduate in my family, so I had no real focus on in terms of, hey, what do you want to be after college life? So just a quick transition into the mathematics world, quickly realized that it's a lot more complex than it was in high school, but I was just one that kind of enjoyed the challenge, enjoyed the reasoning behind it, enjoyed the logic there, the thought processes, and next thing you know, you're a sophomore going like, okay, do I switch majors or not? And wasn't an option for me at the time. So I would say I was probably around that average to below average mathematics major, but I was kind of locked in at that point, so I was definitely going to gut it out. Colman: Well, so I guess moving on, after you graduated from Holy Cross, you decided to join the Marine Corps. What led you to this decision? Was there anything specific? Have you just always wanted to join the Marines or serve? James: So like you, you're the Army ROTC, right? So I'm going to see if I can draw a little bit of similarity here. So you're getting a taste of military life as you're going through school. So it's embedded in your daily routines, so you're getting fully immersed into what it will be like on the other side. For me, my journey was a little different. I went home between my freshman and sophomore year, and that was the year I got bored quickly, right? Football, school, a lot coming at me a hundred miles an hour. I get home, life falls to almost an idle throttle. So it was definitely something I didn't want to have happen at least every summer. So I like to tell people that slaying the dragon commercial for the Marine Corps came on at the right time of my life. Bored sitting at home, commercial comes on and marketing geniuses as they were, I wanted to sign up and slay a dragon. So I called the phone number at the bottom of the TV and recruiters being as good as they are, the moment I called, he said, I got a guy, I want you to meet the guy. I'll have a captain over at your house tomorrow morning. That captain showed up in his blue Deltas that next morning, gave me the pitch, took me out to Ken, Ohio with the school there, gave me a little heavy dose of you name it, pushups, pull ups, three mile run, all of this stuff. And I just wanted a little bit more. I had to have a little bit more what he was giving. Recruiters being as good as they are, they only give you a little taste and they kind of tell you, you can't do it. Don't tell me I can't do something because then I become one of those, I'll prove it to you, I'll show you. So he wanted to meet my father, came by the house later that week. My dad didn't think this was going to happen. He's like, yeah, you're not joining the Marine Corps. So this guy shows up in his blue Deltas and my dad's like, oh my gosh, you really are joining the Marine Corps. So that summer I take off to Quantico for six weeks, your Army ROTC, what we call it, the two meters class. So you had an opportunity to get two heavy doses in the summertime, six weeks apiece, full immersion in the military lifestyle bootcamp. And that first six weeks I was hooked. The adrenaline rush, the competition, the camaraderie, the esprit de corps, just people who believed in a common goal and focus, all wanting to do the same thing. I was hooked. I was hooked. And then that second summer I did the same thing. I already kind of knew what my career path was as a junior going into college. I knew it was a Marine Corps. And so graduation day, I had my dress blues on underneath my cap and gown and went across the stage, got my diploma. Unlike you, I still had the option to say no up until I got to the stairway and I did a swearing in. But I took that robe off, got on the steps, got my silk, my gold lieutenant bars, and I was gone. And the rest is, as they say, it was history. And 20 years later, and I'm retiring as a Marine Corps officer. So that was a great decision on my part, but I was locked in focus in terms of, again, that the core principles of what the Marine Corps offered, I was hooked. Colman: That's definitely a lot to relate to there for myself. As you talked about, kind of having that never quit attitude, never taking no for an answer, saying you can't do it. That's something that's really stuck with me. And then I also know I have a couple buddies that are in the Marine program here, and they do the same thing. Six weeks before their junior year and six weeks before their senior year, before they end up commissioning after. So a lot of similarities there, which is really cool to see. Some things never really do change. Transitioning, I know you spent 20 years in the Marines, so thank you for your service for that. Once you decided to get out, what do you think was the biggest adjustment transferring from a military career to a career in business? James: As I look back and reflect, you kind of have people who tell you, there's one train of thought that says military folks have a difficult time adjusting because they're used to discipline and structure and routine and everything's a procedure and a process. And I think I like to try to demystify that for a lot of people. I don't necessarily subscribe to that. I don't think it's true. I think military lifestyle is different, yes, but we're still people, so we're still able to adapt and adjust. But I think for me, one of the biggest things was accepting the fact that it was over as a career choice and I should be okay with not wanting to fall into something similar. So a lot of people kind of take the skillsets that they've honed in over a career in the military and they kind of just parlay it on to defense contracting or something of that nature. And I wanted to be comfortable with my decision and say, don't just follow a normal path if that's not what you want. And I certainly didn't want that. I didn't want defense contracting. I didn't want anything to kind of do with the military lifestyle anymore. Just kind of put it away, enjoyed it. I really had a great time, but I wanted a different challenge. And so for me it was just accepting the fact that it looked different, doing something that was completely away from the norm and being comfortable with that decision. For me, that was the toughest call to make and being okay with that. Not just saying, hey, I'm just going to pick up where I left off, but being okay with starting from zero and then building up a second career that I felt like I would enjoy a lot more as well. Colman: Definitely starting a new career and shift can have its own challenges, but it's very good that you decided to take almost a path less traveled. And I know you went from originally at Santander Bank and now to the Vice President of Business Banking Relationships, relationship manager at Bank of America. So if you could just tell me a little bit about your current role here and maybe what your day-to-day life looks like and some of the tasks and skills you have? James: Yeah, so banking for me is, that's the new space we're talking about. So I've been in banking now for five and a half years and I'm still learning. I feel like a brand new lieutenant again in the Marine Corps. So you sit back and you absorb and you interact with your bosses and your peers try to absorb as much as you can. But my current role as the relationship manager is exactly as it sounds, right? So I work with privately held companies within Connecticut and Western Massachusetts, and there's a certain target threshold for revenues that we work with. So we have small business and median businesses in the corporations that we work with. My job is basically sales, getting out there and trying to connect with those companies and kind of deliver values and solutions to those companies like every other bank out there. I knock on the door and try to peddle wares and say, hey, I have a solution for you and I've got a way to help your business grow. And so some of that is being able to connect with people. And some of that is, for me, I look at it as problem solving. So if you were to think about, maybe this is before your time, before mine as well, there used to be people who sold vacuum cleaners door to door. And back in that time intel was if you even knew somebody who had carpet. Knock on random doors and you didn't even know if someone had carpet. And so some of that is even true today, but I love problem solving, right? That's my shtick, if you will. And so part of this crafting of the puzzle is let's just find out who has a need, what's the demand before I go knocking on doors. So that research and trying to help people identify problems, that's my skillset, that's my strength. And then being able to take what I do as at my everyday activities, which is researching, trying to find out what industries have what particular problems, and then helping solve those problems, and then learning in the bank because we've got hundreds of solutions that we can offer, but I'm not going to throw that as an individual. My job is to kind of customize and say, here's two that I think will solve your problems. So just drawing it out and listening is probably the biggest skillset set that you can bring to relationship managers. Just listening, helping identify problems before you start rattling off solutions. And just being able to sit back and be comfortable in silence as people talk and you're listening, you're looking for problems and then you're helping them solve. So it's not a one size fits all, but it's working together to make sure you deliver the best solution, Colman: Definitely. Intelligence shapes the mission. So it's funny how you see them in your research now and how you can use that for your problem solving both in your past career and now in your present career at Bank of America. What advice would you give a Holy Cross student to leverage their liberal arts education to start their career in business? A lot of students coming out of Holy Cross are competing with kids coming from traditional business schools or getting a traditional business or finance major. How can a Holy Cross student use their liberal arts degree to their advantage? James: Yeah, that's a tricky one. And I remember in the mid-nineties where liberal arts education was the thing. It was the creme de la creme and you kind of went away from specific majors, so you wouldn't dare be a finance major. That's just suicide. And so there's a pendulum sway, and now you do have liberal arts which kind of took a hit in terms of industries looking for a particular talent and skill sets. And so now the challenge is being able to re-craft the story. That would be my suggestion. So as you look and you say, well, what value does a liberal arts education offer? Well, as you all kind of write your own story, I would say start with answering that question first, which is like well, you tell the story of what you think liberal arts education does for you. I tell my son, who's 7, of course, 7-year-olds olds don't listen to anything you say, but at least I start the message by saying two skillsets there will never be a shortage of in this, at least not in our country, and that's storytelling and problem solving. Those are the two skillsets that you'll never have a shortage of in terms of the workforce. You can do those two things. You can do them well. You can do just about anything you want in the industry that you want. And sky's the limit. So if you could figure out a way to convince, again, older folks that are sitting in the position of hiring people, that you have those skillsets, and liberal arts has kind of helped you shape those, you're not just singularly focused on a problem, but you kind of see the problem as an ecosystem. So you solve one thing, maybe you create another problem, you solve that problem. So if you can start to craft a story that tells people what the liberal arts education, what value it brings to a company or an industry, I think that's the keystone that gets you into any industry or any line of business that you want to get into. Colman: And I know that the alumni network from Holy Cross is very strong, just like me being able to reach out to you to do this podcast. Is there anything you can speak on about using the alumni network to your advantage and to help support you? James: Yes. I would say my first advice is don't follow my example. So in terms of networking, I probably would be the worst example. After I graduated, I lost connectivity with a lot of people who were close, dear friends while I was in school and didn't kind of build and continue those relationships while I went through the military, unless you were in the military. So if I ran across a Holy Cross alum, I would definitely connect. But one of the things that I did do successfully was I stayed connected to Holy Cross writ large, the campus, the alumni giving. So that thing I kind of held dear to, but in terms of the thing that actually made the school special, the people, I kind of lost focus of that for a huge chunk of time. Now you say, God bless LinkedIn, God bless social media. That allows me the opportunity to kind of right my wrongs. So I again capitalized those platforms and reached out to a lot of Holy Cross network. And the funny thing is, you're all accepting. So it's one of those deals where you kind of shoot yourself in the foot and say, why didn't I do this 15, 20 years ago? Why didn't I stay connected? But I guess that's the beauty in this thing, which is staying connected doesn't mean every day. Staying connected doesn't mean once a quarter. There's no time limit. It's just even if it's a casual hello, how are things going? Or hey, can you really sit down with me and kind of talk to me and help mentor me through a career? I personally have found, I would never say 100%, 99.9% of anybody that has the Holy Cross logo attached to their LinkedIn profile are willing to help you out in any way that they can. That's my personal experience. That's what I tout and that's kind of what I sell people on in terms of what Holy Cross alumni means, what that network means. And I have a wife who's very jealous of it because she went to American University and there's absolutely no connection there. Colman: Big rivals too. Big rivals. That's awesome that you always know that Holy Cross alumni and fellow classmates will always be there to help support you. So pivoting from that, I understand you do a lot of volunteer work with veterans and veterans programs. How do you think the Holy Cross mission of being men and woman for others lives on through this work? And are there maybe any similarities you see in your volunteer work to the Holy Cross mission statement? James: I think there's a lot of crossover and sometimes you have to stop even just sitting talking with people like you to reflect on how they're almost one and the same. So whether I consciously knew I was basically being groomed in a particular way at Holy Cross, and then you see some of that carryover, or even now it's a consistent theme. So whether I was attracted to that, and that's why I ended up at Holy Cross and kind of lived that lifestyle or whether it's because the faculty at the school and the students at the school kind of help you see that as well. I think it's a hybrid of both of them, but that's kind of been the central theme, at least throughout my military career and then thereafter. So there's a reason why I volunteered for what we call the Veterans of Foreign Wars Group is because they're not just this self-serving entity that's out there. I wouldn't join the organization if were. So yes, do we have 30 minutes for people to kind of trade war stories about War War II? Yes. I mean, that's just fascinating to listen to a World War II veteran talk to you about D-Day and what his role was. But the preponderance of our time, 95% of our time is looking for veterans who need help in our local area and then how we can help that veteran. Even if it's something as simple as they're down on their luck and they need a hot water tank installed in their house because they just can't do it, they don't have the money to do it, we're there to help. So we're looking, we always actively look for ways that we can actually help veterans in need, whether it's the fundraising events to make sure that we're able to provide those resources that they may need, but always looking for any way that we can assist even outside of the scope of, again, a veteran that served in a foreign war or not. So always looking to give back to the community, led by a great group of veterans from World War II and Vietnam, and I'm just happy to be in the shadow and learn and mentor for them because at some point they're going to pass the baton on and say, all right, they consider me young thinking about that. Right? Sorry, you're the young one. It's time for you to take the lead. But a great group of men and women who are always setting a good example again on that Holy Cross mantra, which is men and women for others, and that's why I'm part of that group. Colman: That's awesome. That's really great work that you do. Thank you very much. James: Oh, thank you. Colman: All right. Last question here before we wrap it up. Any last parting advice? I know you've bestowed a lot of wisdom upon us, but any advice you'd give to a Holy Cross student now just before they graduate, looking to finish that degree or connect with alumni? Anything you think that's good that's going to help them before they graduate? James: I would say going into graduation is one of those periods where we try to cram a whole lot in and in the shortest amount of time because I guess in our mind's eye, we kind of see the finality, right? We're like, wait a minute, I only have one more year. Shrink it down even more. Wait a minute, one more semester, one more month, and then you end up just bypassing a lot of the stuff. We're trying to get check marks in the box. But I would say that's probably a good time to say maybe slow down, shore up some friendships. One of the regrets I have, and I don't live by regrets, but one of the regrets I do have is just not finding a new friend, right? When I looked to my left and my right during the graduation ceremony, I did not have a clue who those people were. We were in alphabetical order. I'm just like, I don't know you, and I don't know you. So one of those where you kind of regret not reaching out and just trying a different friend group or different people and just connecting with people in different ways. It doesn't always have to be brotherhoods or sisterhoods, and it doesn't always have to be best friends. Sometimes it's just good to say hello to just someone because they're in your class and may never know when you know time is right for them to kind of reach out and connect. So find the person who will be sitting next to you and during graduation and go introduce yourself. That'd be my word of wisdom for anybody, but get yourself known out there and get to know as many people in your graduating class as possible. And you probably won't hit a hundred percent, but carry that through over the next 10 to 20 years of your career. Get to know people in your graduating class until you strike the hundred percent mark. Colman: Awesome. Thank you very much. As the fall semester closed down, I know a lot of people will listen to that and take that to heart with their last semester coming up. So thank you for that. And thank you very much for joining the podcast. It was awesome to talk to you and learn a lot from you and hear about your experience from Holy Cross while you were a student and an athlete here, to your service in the Marine Corps, and eventually to your career at Bank of America and the community service you do with the Veterans of Foreign Wars. So thank you very much for joining it. We appreciate having you. James: Well, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. I have one more question for you. So Army, Navy, who you got this weekend? Colman: Army always. James: Oh, geez. Colman: Army beat Navy. James: Holy Cross, you're sure right? Colman: Holy Cross all the way, though. James: I didn't doubt that one for one second. Colman: Of course. Of course. Maura Sweeney: That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be people for and with others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone would like to be featured on this podcast, then please send us an email at alumnicareers.holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcast. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, "Now go forth and set the world on fire." Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.  

This episode features a conversation between Joe Dulac from the class of 1990 and Ely Bueno from the class of 1998. Joe and Ely first met because they went through the New Hampshire Dartmouth Family Medicine Residency Program at Concord Hospital. They have stayed in touch since then, but reconnected in a meaningful way during the COVID-19 pandemic. Their conversation showcases how the mission of Holy Cross and the lessons learned during their time on the Hill helped to support them in living a life of meaning and purpose in service of others. Interview originally recorded in May 2022. --- Joe: We were going to just stay home during a pandemic or we were going to step up and figure out... Honestly, the choice was close down the practice and maybe we'll open up in a few months or we're going to figure out a way to reopen and serve our patients. Maura Sweeney: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, from the class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. This episode features a conversation between Joe Dulac from the class of 1990 and Ely Bueno from the class of 1998. Joe and Ely first met because they went through the New Hampshire Dartmouth Family Medicine Residency Program at Concord Hospital. They have stayed in touch since then, but reconnected in a meaningful way during the COVID-19 pandemic. This conversation offered Ely a chance to ask Joe questions to learn more about his professional journey, which included the opportunity to open and build a practice from scratch. It also gave them a chance to reflect on their past, discover shared connections and process everything they went through over the past few years. In particular, they speak about the challenges that doctors faced during the pandemic and how they lifted each other up during difficult times. Their conversation showcases how the mission of Holy Cross and the lessons learned during their time on the Hill helped to support them in living a life of meaning and purpose in service of others. Ely: Joe, thanks so much for agreeing to do this interview in this format. It comes from a place of deep gratitude for your professional contact and your friendship over the several years that we've known each other. And so now we get to dive in. Joe: Great. This is a great opportunity to meet with you and try something new, right? Ely: Yeah, definitely. And now, did you ever go on the spiritual exercises in Holy Cross, Joe? Joe: Right. Did a lot of things at Holy Cross, and so did do the one-week silent retreat in Narragansett, Rhode Island, which... it was very powerful, of course. Ely: Yeah. Joe: Yeah. Quite an experience. Ely: Yeah. So I also attended, and I think as we start invoking that Ignatian spirit of really the deep sense of giving of ourselves for others in contemplation, in meeting God through story, this is really a great opportunity that Maura has for us as alumni to connect and tell our story. So I'm really eager to hear about yours. And so diving right in, tell me about how you got to where you are now from Holy Cross and beyond. Joe: Okay, sure. Certainly, I always talk about paths being not really straight. You think you're going to go on a straight path and then path kind of zigzags. So to get to Holy Cross, so I was Chelmsford High School and was very interested in sciences and was accepted into Holy Cross for chemistry pre-med. And obviously that was challenging and stimulating. And so I went through the process there with all the pre-meds and the basic science and chemistry. And there was a time where there was a choice between being a chem major, going to chem grad school or going to med school. And so there was a time where there was some uncertainty, the path that I might take. So a lot of the professors were very supportive, really of either path. But because I was a chem major, I think they were very supportive of the chemistry track. So I did do research in the summer with Holy Cross and with Dr. Ditzer, and enjoyed that, but still found myself interested in the pre-med track. So I applied and went through all the steps with the MCATs. Did have some struggles in my junior year, so I did have a little bit more of a crooked path after that. So I did a year of grad school. I was going to go into Georgetown, but found that Boston University had a program on medical sciences, and I got accepted from that program and into the med school there. And so my first year was doing a thesis, but I was able to take several medical school courses including gross anatomy and neurosciences and physiology. So that really helped solidify what I wanted to do in the path. And though I had a little bit of struggles in my junior year in grad school and in med school. Well, the first year of grad school, my professors had remarked that I had caught fire academically and kind of on a tear. So the path was kind of a little bit crooked there. But once I settled in at Boston University after Holy Cross, the medical sciences just kind of took over and it's kind of a labor of love, learning and staying up late and being on call and all that. So I was at the Boston Medical Center there in Boston University, which was really interesting time because they were building the new hospital. So halfway through training, they completed the hospital there and then they crushed it down to smithereens. But in one day we basically were in the old hospital and the next day we were in the new hospital. And so that was really great training through the basic sciences at Holy Cross and experiences there. And then I was looking into residencies and as would have it, I had applied to a lot in the New England area for residencies for family medicine. And I had gotten a scholarship in Lowell with the Mass Medical Society and John Janice and his family, one of the doctors in the family was starting the residency in Concord and Lebanon, New Hampshire. And he said, "Hey, I'm going to give you the scholarship, but maybe you should consider our program." And so I applied and matched. And so I ended up in Concord and mostly Concord and Lebanon for family medicine. And it was the very first year of the program, which probably better I didn't really know what I was getting myself into. The program was really good, but as a first kind of run through, what I didn't understand at the time was that though you're a resident, you're basically a faculty member because you're developing all the programs everywhere. Every program, every rotation was the first time they ever had a resident or any kind of training. So that was a different kind of experience as well. Ely: I have some questions about your residency challenges. How much did you do in the bigger hospital in Lebanon? Joe: I did several rotations up in Lebanon, which were great. So I did a lot of pediatrics there with Chad. So that was our big pediatric kind of connection. And then I actually did obstetrics in Augusta, Maine because at the time... I'm not sure if you're trained for OB as well, but they wanted us to be fully trained for OB, which I was. So I did an OB rotation. I made that happen in Augusta, Maine, which was really interesting, delivering babies out. It's the state capital, but it's still kind of rural actually. And then I did also make a OB rotation in Beverly, Mass. And that was very developmental because no one had ever been there before. And then I did sports medicine, I made some sports medicine rotations in Portland, Maine. So those were interesting. And then I did put together a holistic herbal experience with Ascutney mountain and the herbalist. So that was up near the Lebanon area, but for pediatrics, I think I did a few months at Chad. So it was great being up there at that hospital too. Yeah, the Dartmouth Hitchcock Hospital is a really fantastic place to train. Ely: Yeah. I am very proud of our family medicine residency program. By the time that I had arrived in Concord, it was exclusively at Concord Hospital, so all rotations were there. And I did high risk OB rotation in Nashua, New Hampshire, and some of the main Dartmouth residents came to our program to do some rotations or came down to Nashua to do some rotations. So that kind of relationship with other hospitals in the area were nice to be able to have established from relationships that you guys forged. So that has always been a nice part about learning in community. Joe: Well, I know we had touched base about that, and I remember having mixed feelings about the training and starting a new program. I remember you mentioning to me one time how you felt that the program was really excellent and that you had gotten really well-trained there. I know the training was definitely good in terms of experiences because even though it's not necessarily big city, Concord is the state capital again of New Hampshire, but still a lot of it's rural, a lot of rural type of problems. At the time, at least, I don't know how it was by the time you got there, but still a lot of patients had hadn't had access to doctors in a long time. So most of the illness that we would see as residents were actually advanced and surprising, patients with really far along illnesses that you're kind of surprised that they could just still be walking around with that situation. Yeah. Ely: Yes, definitely. That kind of establishing disease management and identifying severe disease was really was an important part of training. And I think, yes, Concord is a catchment area for that area. And Concord Hospital's Family Health Center is a federally qualified health center, much like where you work in East Boston currently, but there were a lot of social workers that helped. So there was definitely this sense of team effort to help engage people's health and work together. So that was a really good part. That's what I really liked about the training is that I learned from our pharmacists, from our social workers and other community health workers. So that was a good part of the training there. And it sounds like that helped you establish your career with in Dracut because you started your clinic there. Joe: I think all experiences eventually helped you later on for sure. So you're right, in Concord starting the residency program, I guess to some degree I wasn't scared to start a practice. So I guess there's that component of it. But though after I finished with the residency program that you also attended, then I returned back to my hometown in Chelmsford. And so when I finished, I went and had physical make sure that I also checked on my health. And so at that time I had gotten a physical in Chelmsford, the doctor that there was working with some other doctors and offered me a job in their clinic. And I said, "well, I'm just here for a physical, I don't think I want-" Ely: You got a job. Joe: Yeah, "don't think I want a whole job, but my physical must have been good." Ely: God bless family medicine, we do it all. Joe: So I did work a couple years in my hometown in Chelmsford in Drum Hill with Dr. Gamasis. And then actually I went back into New Hampshire. So when Michelle and I were married, we moved up to New Hampshire and then I worked with Wentworth-Douglass Hospital doing family medicine. And at that time, certainly most of the career up until that point and even after was fall spectrum. So when I worked in Chelmsford, it was inpatient medicine, outpatient medicine, ICU care, the rehabs, home care. So it was a lot. And so we would admit patients to the hospital, we would follow them and also do ICU care, and that was very satisfying. But it's a different world than it certainly is now in terms of, I suppose, expectations, acuity, the length of stay. I don't think it's even possible to do both now, but we did. And so I did that up in Concord and then actually we put a hospitalist program in there, which was actually very controversial, and then we ended up just transitioning to outpatient medicine. So then in 2007, I actually came back down to the area of Merrimack Valley with Saints Medical Center. They were near and dear to my heart because I had still been on staff there and they were looking to open practices and they said, "hey, can you open one of practice for us in Dracut?" And I said, that sounds really exciting because for me as a physician, I've always enjoyed obviously seeing patients and being in different environments. But one thing that you may never have an opportunity to do is to start a practice. And as a physician, starting a practice means you can really put your own personality into it and you're not inheriting necessarily a practice that's already there, or maybe another doctor's patient with maybe their style of medicine. So that was really exciting for me to be able to do that. And so the cool part about that situation was they also wanted me to be involved in the design build of the practice, which was super exciting. I didn't know anything about architect work or designing anything. So that was really exciting. And then we opened the practice and we had no patients. Day one, no patients, which is different than a lot of scenarios. So that was exciting and scary at the same time. Ely: Well, the natural question now I have is how did you recruit patients? Joe: Gosh, that was exciting time too. So a couple things, you just never know how life's going to go. So while we were doing this project, it was supposed to start in 2007, but it was delayed. So I had left the job in New Hampshire, came down, and they said, okay, unfortunately it's going to take longer than we expected. We're going to put you at the walk-in clinic for the year that we're going to get all this project going. And that was in Lowell. So I had never done urgent care medicine, so it's a little different and exciting and somewhat scary too, actually at times. And so I did that for a year. And there was a doctor that Dr. Bousquet who was a really wonderful doctor and a friend, so he must have known his life path what it was going to be. So he basically introduced me to so many people, so many patients. Even though he was kind of retired, they would still come to the clinic and he'd do kind of a primary care situation for them and then he would introduce them to me. And so I wasn't even really kind of aware of that was what was happening. And then so when I opened the practice, I did have actually a core of patients, which was really nice. And then we just did a lot of different things. So we went to every possible event that they had. So we went to job fairs where they wanted medical people. We went to the old home day in Dracut. I went to the Dracut baseball night, the comedy night, the fundraisers, whatever just to meet people. So that summer was really interesting. So we had no patients and then we slowly developed patients. I just basically stayed on a call every day, which wasn't as bad as it sounds, but when you have a startup practice, it's kind of neat to be on call all the time because then you're connecting with the patients very, very well. And then we had excellent people. So basically, there were three of us. So the three of us basically started the start of the office. So it was kind of exciting times. Yeah. Ely: That is quite a journey and a lot of legwork goes into building a practice in terms of just building the relationships you had with Dr. Bousquet. And so I am curious though, just as much as you were really involved in the community, if you can talk about it, how did it impact the way you and your family were developing? How did that balance work with being on call all the time and having all these obligations with work? How did you- Joe: It worked out in some ways. So though at the time, and actually still now, so we live way up in almost near Portsmouth, New Hampshire, but the practice was in Dracut, but again, this is kind of how crooked lines work and nothing's ever kind of straightforward. So we're both from that area. So she's from Lowell, I'm from Chelmsford, so we have family there. So though it was challenging in some ways to be here and there, it also was doable because for instance, her mom lives there. Her mom lives right down the street. And then my parents live in Chelmsford, and then my brothers live in Nashua and Chelmsford. So I think if it was a different location, it probably wouldn't have worked, but I could check on her mom, I can check on my parents, I can see my brothers. So that was nice. And then we could stay there. We could stay there on the night or the weekend. So that worked out really well. And then starting a practice also meant that I had flexibility because I could tell patients to come at seven o'clock in the morning, they could call me. So there was a lot of flexibility and that allowed me to have time to coach baseball and soccer and flag football. And so I guess it just kind of worked out because I guess you wanted it to, if you wanted it to work out. There were times it was hard. So I coached a lot of baseball, and so I even started sometimes at 6:00 AM and then would try to complete by early afternoon and then kind of rush home and then run some baseball drills, run the practices or the games or whatever. So I guess it just eventually worked out. But I think having some creativity in it and then having it be my own entity was really exciting. You have a lot of ownership in it and you can make things work, I suppose. And I really enjoyed having a personal connection to the patients that allows them to tell me that the schedule doesn't work for them, for instance, and they need something, and I can say, well, why don't you just come in at 7:30 and I'll do your physical then, things like that, which is to me is very, very satisfying 'cause the patient obviously needs certain things and I can know what those are. And then having some flexibility allows you to meet that need and you feel like, okay, that's why I'm actually here. Ely: Yes. Joe: Yeah. Ely: Well... you did... you say... it's amaze... I love hearing about this story and it's just different than mine. I also had a zigzaggy kind of path to medicine. But what I really am getting the sense of, Joe, is that you worked really hard to create your network, your family, really, work family, and then you really worked hard with your wife to build a network and a team that supported both of you, all of you. And if we don't really have a supporting team around us, it just can't work. And that's really a wonderful thing that you had and have currently. But I can imagine the shift in the culture of medicine and the way it's been managed provides some challenges now too. How have the rules changed around you in terms of management? Joe: Those are really great questions. And I guess it's easy to just gloss over the past and think, okay, gosh, everything was just really rosy, but it's not, it's not always rosy. So currently I think I'm way more satisfied than probably I have been in maybe in a long time. And I think some of that is because, like you were mentioning about working with people or networking, I think a lot of it is because the other doctor in the practice and also another doctor that also is there, we worked together to create the systems. Again, not to maybe speak poorly about systems, but we were in systems thinking, this is not really kind of what we're thinking or this is not actually functioning how we want it to function. Oh, okay, so you're feeling the same way as me and you're feeling the same way. And then, okay, let's express that. So we actually met a lot. It's changed even over the COVID, but we met a lot as doctors to talk about what we thought about medicine, what we thought about and how things should go, and then why it was or wasn't at that point. So I think at some point we just became leaders of our own own destiny. Now that doesn't always come easy. Sometimes you got to fight for that and sometimes it just works out. Certainly to your point, and I've kind of learned this kind of the hard way over time, I think joining forces with people is way more effective than just being the only person that maybe is complaining about something or that wants something to change. If you have two or three people that you work well with and you talk about things and you actually make sense, it's going to go good places, right? Ely: Agreed. Joe: Hopefully. Ely: Yes. Joe: Hopefully. Ely: Well, collaboration always brings some good fruits. And I would have to say, I really felt like over COVID, as we progress in this age of COVID, I'll just say it's really the pandemic continues, let's remind each other, and- Joe: It is continuing. Ely: ... it continues. But I feel like throughout COVID, I would often send a little message out to you in a way that helped me process what was going on. And the confusion about how we were operating or guidelines, miscommunications or communications about certain guidelines that were changing daily and they still really are, but I felt like having someone to vent about stuff that was changing was very helpful. So I again want to thank you for that. And I think that it helped me just advocate for what was going around in my situation. So thank you for that. Joe: Yeah, I'm glad that we connected because though there were three doctors in my practice, there was a time where we were either not working in the office at all or we were all remote and not really even seeing each other. And then at some point, yeah, there was an isolation, even though the physicians and medical staff. And so I think though it feels like I helped you, you secretly helped me kind of realize that I was doing some of the right things or thinking of the right things or I wasn't kind of off base thinking about the same things that you were thinking. And I may have told you yeah, you're right. But I might have also been secretly questioning it too. So I think, like you said, kind of connecting is definitely powerful. And I can't even take credit for all of that because though I was doing the family medicine in Dracut, I was also blessed to be a part of the East Boston clinic and some of the doctors there are also very amazing and they do different things. And so one of the doctors I worked with there, he gets deployed for disasters. And so he had gotten actually deployed from our pediatric kind of practice there to the very, very first COVID response unit in California when they had the cruise ship and they had 300 patients and they had no place to put these people. Kim and his crew went out there. So he had already been in the thick of it. I think that was December maybe 2019 or something. So he had already been in the thick of it and he came back and then I just remember learning so much from him and then thinking, okay, you have to be organized, you do have to have protocols, and you do need certain things. You need PPE, you need testing, and whether you can get those things or not, or if people are going to support you, you actually do need it. So advocating for those things, super important. And maybe you couldn't get everything you wanted. We couldn't get any N95 masks, but the other doctor that was in the practice had had the forethought of buying them. So we actually bought our own. And they weren't that great really, but they worked. And then, strangely enough, we were able to repair them. So I actually did a lot of glue gunning for several months of the masks because I didn't have another one. So it's kind of exciting in some ways to make things work, right? Ely: Yes. And being in medicine during the pandemic really made us either just dig our heels in and say, we're staying, we've got this, we have to do this, we have to do something. Whether it is in actually facing COVID patients in the hospital or out in the field, so to speak, in outpatient field of we have to deliver care, whether that it was telemedicine or in office eventually, and how we're we going to be able to do that and getting those PPE, for those listening, personal protective equipment. I think now we probably know that that's probably colloquial more so than just a medical term, but yeah, we have come a long way. And then to really sit and talk with you now about, man, that was some tough times over the last couple of years specifically. I'm listening to your story. I'm really curious and very enthralled with your development of your practice, but also just knowing what we have shared together in our health system with what we went through in the last two years. That was a lot. And it's still really tough. So I'm glad we're, we're still going, but it is difficult. Are you feeling the same way about that? Joe: Well, it's very much a people profession and it's a caring profession, and I think we get energy off of each other. So your excitement, enthusiasm, and even your positive feedback helps to really motivate me and other people. And so I think that was one of the really exciting things about the pandemic. Sure, I could probably look back and have a lot of mixed feelings about different things, but I think one of the things that was really amazing was the administration kind of apparatus really froze up. And the clinical people, we basically had to rise up because it was either we were going to just stay home during the pandemic or we were going to step up and figure out... Honestly, the choice was close down the practice and maybe we'll open up in a few months or we're going to figure out a way to reopen and serve our patients. So that was the choice, and that was really the clinical leadership. A hundred percent. We even developed how we were going to screen patients and then for the limited testing initially what we were going to do. And then as testing became more available, what were we going to do, what questions we were going to ask patients, when were they going to be permitted in the office? All that stuff we had to figure out and then we just did it. So thought that was really exciting actually. So I guess to answer your question, compared to sometimes when you feel really just maybe you're not making a difference, this period has kind of felt like more like we're making a difference. So things do kind of get tiring, the electronic medical systems can get tiring and charting, and there are some mundane things. And I think also the other thing is the more that we're in charge, I think of the healthcare system, and even simple things like how we're going to do our schedule, it's really empowering. I guess that's some of the things that came out of it. Ely: Thank you for that perspective, because that learning by doing is precisely why I chose family medicine. And really the impetus for me to be just actively doing in medicine was why I then pursued a career in medicine. And so just to be reminded of that is exactly what we are doing. This is our calling to do it, and we are here to serve. And as difficult as it is, that's what we do and we do it the best. And yes, leadership comes in all form, including administration, and there's certainly guidelines and rules that we may admonish at times, but really it's an honor and our privilege to be able to help others and live out the dream we all had of becoming physicians and being able to realize that in the work that we do. So thanks. Joe: You're welcome. And it did really feel like patients really did need us. So for two years, there were times where we're running all kinds of tests for coronavirus, then helping patients with, are you going to be able to work? And for how long? And who's going to write those letters? And then when can you go back and well, maybe you're not actually doing all that well, so maybe we should run x-rays and labs and send you to the hospital and now working with some of these other therapeutics and whatnot. So yeah, I think there's a lot of components where the family medicine, you can really just jump right in. Yeah, you're right. And then you're also right too, where it's not all rosy. There are a lot of things that can get in between those things that we really want to do for patients and how we want to feel about our calling. Ely: It's not all rosy, but then again, really, I welcome the challenge. If I had to go back into where our education had formed us at Holy Cross, the challenges that we had in terms of asking the question, and this is really for me, formed from this first year program that is now the Montserrat program that I was part of. But this question of how then shall we live in this world of COVID there are constant changes and rules, how then shall we live and then dot, dot, dot as physicians, as humans, as a mother, as a father. So I think it really is a unique way of looking at where we are through the lens of having a Holy Cross Jesuit education. Joe: Absolutely. There are so many experiences during the time there that totally prepares you for a career in medicine, in family medicine, or even just caring for people. There's so many things. The list is just endless of events and experiences for sure. I had what they call a SPUD... suburban, I'm not sure of all the acronyms there. Ely: Program for Urban Development something. Joe: We had so much fun, we did so many different things. And I just remember taking him to the... I think it's the pub there where there's the bowling alley. We had a bowling alley on campus, we used to do that a lot and other fun events. But yeah, there was just a lot of good experiences. One of the things that I think was also really excellent too was I went for one of the breaks at the Appalachia Mountain. I don't know if that was going on when you were there. So I went to Kentucky Mountain Housing and that was I think about 10 days. And so that was really amazing experience. So not only were we serving others, and then we were building some houses up in Appalachia in Kentucky, but we had to work together as a team. So that was probably one of the early experiences of really team building. So we had several bands, I don't even know how many were in each band, 10 or 12 people in the band. And basically we were responsible for the budget and getting all our stuff and then getting there. So we had to meet in Virginia or something and then continue on. So I just remember we had to decide who was going to drive and when and what shifts, and then how we were going to do our meals and who was going to cook it and when and who was going to clean up, and then who was going to do what kind of jobs on the site there. So that was really amazing experience. And then of course, interacting with people in Appalachia and helping them build houses and learning about their life experiences was, I think that's obviously a really amazing experience. And it's very, very similar to being a physician, except not building a house typically, but you're interacting with people and connecting with them where they are. So that was definitely a formative experience and I'm really grateful I was able to do that. Ely: What I want to ask you, because now you're in a position of having one of your kids going to start at Holy Cross, do you have any certain expectations for her experience at Holy Cross? Joe: Yeah, no, thank you for mentioning that. Yeah, Olivia will be a freshman this fall, and she plans on the bio pre-med track or health professions track. And so yeah, super excited for her. I'm overjoyed. For both of my children, I often brought them to different Holy Cross events. And for Olivia, we did the move in together. Well, not her move in, but we helped the students move in about five years ago. And then we've done several Holy Cross cares days, and then we've gone to reunions or football games or things. So I was always hopeful that she would have an interest and since I've been there a million years ago, the campus, it changed so much. They've just added so many wonderful things and buildings and upgraded just everything. So I was more than excited for her to consider it. And I'm really hopeful that she has a lot of the experiences that I had or even more. And so what I had wanted for her is not just go someplace and just do science, just be in the lab, just doing science by yourself, with your head down. I really wanted for her to have a real well-rounded experience and really develop other parts of her person as well. And I really wanted that for her. So I'm really hopeful that she sees it that way too. And she's very interested in the science building there. So we had to go look during all of her tours, specifically at the science buildings, even though lots of campuses in the United States are nice, the science building may not be nice. It may not be where they focus. So we went there and the newly kind of renamed Fauci Center definitely looked like it had gotten a lot of attention and would be a good place to learn. So yeah, I'm just really hopeful that she may find experiences like I did, or even different ones, even different ones. I was on the campus ministry there. And I found that to be really amazing, the 10 o'clock masses. And I walked on the football team for two years and was in a great dorm and had a lot of great experiences and a lot of great memories and friendships. Yeah, so I was hoping that she would get a lot of those experiences. So can I ask you about your recent career situation? Ely: Oh, sure. Joe: Because you're making some changes. Ely: Yes. So I would have to say the challenges of COVID and the challenges of parenthood, specifically motherhood, have put my focus on how to best be at home and do the work that I do. So being in the office, in the clinic, taking care of patients is truly rewarding. And I wouldn't change the opportunity for the world. But moving forward, I think I needed to step out of that in clinic role. And so now I've chosen a path to do telemedicine, and I'm very excited about developing my role as a communicator on the phone or by video and listening to patients. And that role won't change, but how I listen and how I engage with patients will be a little bit different and I'll have to hone in those skills. So I am looking forward to it. And I have a few weeks off before then. Joe: Well, I'm excited for you. So we've almost followed the same pathway, but now you're going a different pathway, because we both went to Holy Cross and we both went to New Hampshire Dartmouth residency and we both were urgent care in Merrimack Valley and Primary Care. But now you're going a different paths. Ely: Yes. Well, the zigzags of our paths have crossed many times in one way or another, and I'm sure they'll continue to cross, and hopefully that will continue. Joe: No, I think it's good 'cause I think our energy kind of feeds off of each other and our experiences or even just sometimes questioning kind of feeds off each other. And I think it's really positive. And I find that as I'm getting older and I actually think about what makes me tick, I think interacting with doctors and nurse practitioners and physicians assistants in the course of doing your work is extremely rewarding. And I really enjoy it. And so I do a lot of work in East Boston and a lot of times in the emergency room, and there's several doctors or some doctors and nurse practitioners, and I never really can really put my finger on why I enjoyed it, but I just really enjoyed being together with four or five doctors. It's amazing. You can talk to someone who has major differences in their life experiences or the clinical experiences, and you can just talk to them like right there, hey, I'm doing this for this patient, and what do you do? It's just amazing wealth. It really can help to develop just your satisfaction. But I do want to mention something, and I don't really know how to say it, but I think you brought up and there are, I think, unique challenges to being a male physician and a female physician. And I think with COVID and the additional responsibilities, it's really complicated. You could speak to this more than I, but I think as a female physician or a female nurse, you're also expected to take care of your kids when they're sick, which they're sick a lot with the COVID or not COVID or finding out if they have COVID. So what I've also observed is that the intensity of the responsibility is huge for women in clinical positions, and COVID just has made that so much more apparent and intense. So I understand maybe why you're making some changes there, but obviously you know more than I how that all works. Ely: I really appreciate the acknowledgement of the role of mothers in medicine and fathers have equally distinct roles in managing family life. So for some reason, for me, it has fallen on me to really be at home when they are sick or in quarantine. And it's something that I don't obviously mind doing, I love my children, and I just want to be able to show up for my family, myself and my patients equally as strong. And in my most recent role, I wasn't always feeling like I could do that and for one way or another. And it's not the fault of the system or the role itself, it just happened to play out that way. However, I did find some agency in looking at other options and voila, COVID opened a lot of doors to telemedicine and other opportunities for physicians to practice. So that was a fringe benefit, if I could even say a benefit of the pandemic was some doors that opened. So I felt enough agency to be able to walk through that door, and that was not because I was suffering, that was because there was a lot of strength that came from learning from my colleagues in my previous role. So I have a lot of good feelings for where I came from and a lot of excitement for where I'm going. Joe: I know, I think it's really wonderful and fantastic, and I'm glad that you acknowledged the unique pressures or stresses that you've felt 'cause I don't think they're unique to yourself. And so I'm glad that you've articulated that. And what I always think is by the time you've become a doctor and you've done all the amazing steps to get there, and then you're connecting with patients, to feel like for some reason you can't do that work because of whatever, because of schedule, because you want to also be there for your family or whatever systems things, and to think that maybe someone might actually leave the career altogether, it's really upsetting to me because it's usually the people that are the most caring and connected because you've given out so much of your energy and you just realize it's not working out. So kudos to you to try to figure out a way to keep all that amazing energy, like caring for patients. So I'm glad that you've figured out a path. Ely: Thank you. Joe: Yeah, it's exciting. Yeah, because I know you'll be back doing family medicine at some point in person, that's why I'm saying that. Ely: Yes. Well, my roots in community are very strong. And so to really hear your story of community building, it restores my faith in the progress of medicine and in the intensity of how we serve each other. So again, I cannot say thank you enough. Joe: Well, thank you to you too. Ely: The way I would love to close the interview is to say one thing that you are really excited about the future of family medicine. And I think I'm excited about the continued relationship building and the connection with colleagues as well as patients because if we are stronger as providers, as physicians, then I think that really only encourages our patients to become stronger and to have their agency to take care of their health. And really healthy communities, healthy families are what the drive to family medicine is. And so I'm really excited about that, that relationship is going to continue and get even stronger. How about you? Joe: I think you're right about that. And in the perspective of my path is that training in Boston in the '90s, family medicine was not at all desirable. And so you had to actually leave the city at the time to even seek out the specialty. But in time now, family medicine's very important everywhere, including in the city, including at the academic centers. And with my family medicine background, working in the ER, I do work with the pediatric group in Boston. I do family medicine in the clinic. I've also done urgent care and I feel equally at home in all those settings. And that's really nice. And I think connecting with the patients, I do feel like they actually do need us to know about a lot of things there. There's so much more complexity to health, and it's good to be able to do that over a wide range of health. And the other thing I like too about family medicine is we don't always have to make health issues always necessarily bad. We can talk about them as things that are opportunities to improve and maybe even opportunities to work on holistic health maintenance. So yeah, I think there is a lot of positivity to the future. We're going through an electronic medical record transition to Epic, which was really challenging. But I've used Epic in other locations and I'm finding that it, to some level is restoring my joy of medicine because the system is very good and allows me to actually complete functions rather than having the functions kind of dictate my whole day. So I think that hopefully technology will also help, at least the technology part that should be in place to help us. So I'm optimistic hopefully. Ely: That's a wonderful place to be optimistic and also carries us into the future. Maura Sweeney: That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be people for and with others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone would like to be featured on this podcast, then please send us an email at alumnicareers.holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcast. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, "Now go forth and set the world on fire." Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

In this episode, Conor Joslin '23 interviews Thomas Cotter '17 and Brendan Quinn '06.  Thomas and Brendan met while Thomas was a student at Holy Cross. Their professional journeys converge thanks to the app INDX, a startup co-founded by Thomas and funded by Brendan. Through INDX, they hope to channel their energy and create a product that fosters learning, discovery and growth for all. True entrepreneurs at heart, they show us what's possible when you take a problem and focus your efforts on finding a solution. Interview originally recorded in March 2022. --- Thomas: You can't just build something because you care about it, right? At the end of the day, there has to be a problem and you have to be able to solve that problem for people. And so I think you get lucky when you find a problem that you experience personally, that you also care a lot about in trying to solve it. Maura: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. Maura: In this episode, we hear from two alumni, Thomas Cotter from the class of 2017 and Brendan Quinn from the class of 2006. Thomas and Brendan met while Thomas was a student at Holy Cross and their relationship has grown from there. Mentor, fellow Crusader, friend and business partner are all titles that can be used to describe their relationship with one another. Their professional journeys converge thanks to the app INDX, a startup co-founded by Thomas and funded by Brendan. Conor Jocelyn from the class of 2023 joins Thomas and Brendan to learn about their journeys through Holy Cross and the circumstances that led them to collaborate on this startup. Champions of a Holy Cross education, Thomas and Brendan are passionate about promoting lifelong learning. Through INDX, they hope to channel their energy and create a product that fosters learning, discovery and growth for all. True entrepreneurs at heart, they show us what's possible when you take a problem and focus your efforts on finding a solution. Conor: So hey Thomas, hey Brendan, how are you guys doing today? Brendan: Hey, Conor. Good to be with you. Thomas: Doing well. Thanks for doing this, Conor. Conor: Yeah, thank you for joining us. So Brendan, how about we start off with you? So could you please tell me a little bit about your background, maybe where you are from, your family life, and then also maybe tell us about when you were searching for schools, what convinced you to choose Holy Cross? Brendan: Yeah. So I am class of 2006, to date myself just right off the bat. Was born in the Bay Area. My folks were in the service, both in the Navy. So I lived in California until I was about four, moved to New England, Southeastern Connecticut more specifically, and grew up there predominantly. Started Holy Cross in 2002. And then after Holy Cross, went on to spend 15 years in financial services at one organization called Silicon Valley Bank. And we'll get into kind of what I'm up to now later on, I'm sure. In terms of what attracted me to Holy Cross, I really think it was like there was an intimacy about it. When I came to visit, I was definitely looking at a number of schools in varying shapes and sizes. And I just had that there was like a intangible feeling about Holy Cross and the community that it embodied that was just very attractive to me. Brendan: And so it was a pretty easy decision. I actually did early decision, was able to convince some people that I might be a good fit. So it worked out and then it's been, I would put it in the top five most important decisions in my life in terms of where I am today. So there's not a day that goes by that I'm not grateful for Holy Cross and my time there and all the relationship that have extended from that one of which being Thomas. Conor: Yeah. I had a very similar experience going to Holy Cross. I applied ED as well, and I was very attracted just to all aspects of it. I mean, it's a great place. Now Thomas, could you also share a little bit about your background, where you're from and then why you decided to attend Holy Cross? Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks. Conor and Brendan, and I know each other pretty well at this point and I didn't know you were from the Bay Area, Brendan. So I just learned something right there. So that's awesome. I'm from Acton, Massachusetts. So not too far away from Holy Cross, about a 45 minute drive. A little different experience in terms of how I ended up there though. I originally went to Carleton College in Northfield, Minnesota, where I played football, got some concussions and knew I might want to transfer. And I only looked at a few schools after my freshman or kind of in mid flight of my freshman year to look at transferring. And ironically with Holy Cross, was the first school I ever toured. My mom dragged me, I think as a sophomore or a junior to just go see what a college campus looked like. Thomas: And I always liked it, but when I was originally looking at a school I was out of high school, I just knew I wasn't going to be playing on any of Holy Cross's sports teams. So kind of brought it out of my mind, but I did an interview and looked at the campus and at that point had been in college for a little while. So I feel like I was able to make a pretty informed decision. And the liberal arts education, I was really interested in Spanish and economics and Holy Cross had great programs. And then the smaller school community and liberal arts education really attracted me, which is what brought me there. Thomas: And I'm super appreciative because transferring can be a bit of a challenge to overcome, because you're coming in fresh. A lot of people have their friends and everyone about Holy Cross was super useful and I'll throw a little jab because my grandfather went to BC, but BC actually let me in for transferring, but wasn't going to offer housing. So I'm always even extra appreciative of Holy Cross for their kindness to transfer students. Conor: Oh, awesome. Happy to hear that. So Thomas, I guess we'll ask you this question. During your time on the hill, what were some of the offices, clubs or extracurricular activities that you were involved in and were there any specific experience, classes or professors at Holy Cross that really set you up for success in the professional world? Thomas: Absolutely. No, it's a really good question. As far as extracurriculars, I experimented with a lot of things. I was the co-chair of the Sales Club. I was in the Finance Club, which is actually how Brendan and I ended up meeting, which is a funny story that we can probably pop into with one of those awkward networking calls that everyone tells you to do that thankfully has turned into a friendship, I guess almost lifelong friendship at this point, which is a funny story that I guess those calls actually work, which is nice to see. Thomas: I think one professor that stands out for me is a professor in the economics department, Professor Boyle. I had her for three or four economics classes and she was very rigorous, but she did a really good job of I think leaning on both the quantitative and qualitative aspects of economics, which is what I really liked about it. I also had a lot of really good professors in the Spanish department through that lens. But to your last question on I think how it set up for professional success, my worldview right now retrospectively is that the faster you can learn something new and apply it, the better off you're going to be. In our world things change so quickly that nothing is very static and it's very much a cliche with liberal arts education that you're learning how to learn, but I think there's a lot of truth and foundation to it. Thomas: And so I think my overall experience kind of being able to take in a lot of information, practice thinking for yourself and then applying it, has been the most impactful thing early on in my career because going back, I'm a 2017 grad. The world has changed a lot since then. If I were to be just looking at very specific skills, I think they would've already evolved. Like some of the software skills that I learned at Holy Cross I don't use anymore. Because even though softwares can be out of date, not just one small example. And I think that Holy Cross provided that foundation to continue to learn and adapt, which is really important. Conor: Awesome. Thank you very much. Brendan, I'm assuming you guys probably have pretty similar experiences at Holy Cross with all the different classes and professors, but anything different that stands out to you as something that really impacted your success in the professional world? Brendan: Yeah, I would definitely echo a lot of what Thomas just said there, particularly around the, just like the foundation that a liberal arts education affords. I was also an economics major. I mean, there are so many professors that influenced me, motivated me, touched me in different ways. But the one that actually stands, there's two, one is Professor Mosher who at the time was an adjunct professor and he was my indoctrination into economics at all. I was a pre-med biology major coming into Holy Cross, having grown up in a family, a medical family. And after my freshman year, I was starting to realize that that was not the path that I was going on. And so I was in a lot of ways back to square one in terms of my major and direction I wanted to take. Brendan: My forthcoming professional career and Professor Mosher was, he just had a very lightness about him. He was very, he was a great teacher, a great instructor, very great relationship builder. And so like that, and then kind of marrying that with just my, I have a very macro way that I think and operate, which aligned very nicely with the macroeconomics curriculum that I was being exposed to at that time. And so it just, things clicked. And then further on down the road, Professor Rask was one, took multiple classes with her. I just remember her being again, another just incredible teacher, very careful about the way that she did not try in one size fits all curriculum. She was very customized in her way that she was able to explain different concepts to different people that are coming from things from a different point of view. Brendan: So tying it back to the liberal arts, which I do think is above any specific vertical of subject matter that you're studying, knowing how to think, learning how to make better decisions with better information while also acknowledging for a lot of reasons that Thomas outlined that you're never going to have perfect information continues to serve me every day. And so also like Thomas, I would say that there's very few things in my, like the actual tactical part of my study at Holy Cross that I feel like I'm drawing upon every day. But the foundation of the liberal arts education in like helping you learn how to think and make better decisions, that's going to be a lifetime of value for me personally. So for that I'm grateful. Conor: Yeah. I think that's the beauty of the liberal arts and going to a school like Holy Cross. A few weeks back, I was talking to an alumni and he said something that really stood out to me. He said that like the difference between a Holy Cross student and students that go to large, massive school undergrad business programs, we are completely separated from them because we learn so many different skills. We learn how to problem solve. We learn how to analyze. We learn how to critically analyze. We learn how to read, write. We learn how to present in front of a big crowd. Now that just separates us from so many different students when applying for jobs and internships in the business world. Conor: And I think that's something that really stood out to me as something very impactful for people's careers as a Holy Cross student. So that leads me to my next question. Brandon, our motto at the Ciocca Business Center is major in anything and succeed in business. So can you speak a little bit about, well, I guess both of you, can you guys both speak a little bit about your economics and your accounting majors and the impact that it has had on your professional career? So Brandon, we can start with you and then we'll head over to Thomas. Brendan: Yeah, I would say in terms of my economics understanding in the context of my career, I think what it did was in a little bit more of a specialized way still gave me this foundational understanding of how to think, how to analyze, how to communicate, how to make decisions with imperfect information. Economics is like there's an academic side to economics, but there's also just a practical side of it as well. And so you can't model everything. And so yes, models can help you create a map of reality or the world, but it's not the territory, right? It's a model and it's a framework and it's one that can be utilized to give you kind of broad strokes, directional understanding of things. But specific to the taking that into the real world, you also have to acknowledge that every model is broken, to the upside, to the downside. It's a guide. It's not the answer. Brendan: And so I feel like that with the backdrop of liberal arts education, like I walked out of Holy Cross into my job in financial services at Silicon Valley Bank with that appreciation, probably more so than a lot of my peers that came from more focus financial undergraduate degrees. And in the short term, I definitely had a feeling of, it's not like imposter syndrome, but I felt like I was playing catch up on some of the more technical aspects of my job, but that goes away. Right? Every job, you're going to get technically trained up based on the particular roles and responsibilities of that. And then ultimately where the competition happens, if you will, is at the more foundational levels of how do you think, how do you communicate? How you read, write, make decisions, that's the stuff where liberal arts education and more specifically Holy Cross's version of that, I think sets new graduates up for longer term success relative to their peers. Conor: Yeah. I absolutely agree. That's great points. Thank you. Yeah. Thomas, can you talk about your economics major and the impact it had on your career? Thomas: Yeah. I think I'll just build on what Brendan said or even what... It's funny, you said in chatting with that alum, Conor, a leg up to maybe more traditional skills, but I think Brendan added a nuance to it that's really important, that tying back to the first thing that I said in terms of optimizing for the rate of learning, like how quickly you can apply something, knowing that the benefits aren't going to be linear. So you're not going to take one step and get one step of benefit. It can be sometimes take one step, get four steps of benefit. That sometimes you actually do feel in starting your career that you're behind on some tactical technical skill sets, right? Putting for Brandon's case like a discounted cash flow together. For me, understanding like I don't know, gross margins. I didn't directly learn that in any of my coursework, but you can fill up on a lot of that technical and tactical skills and then start to apply it with systems thinking, communication, leadership skills that I think allow people to benefit. Thomas: And if you think about your college education as a lifelong investment, or hopefully jump starting a lifelong full of learning new things, right? The more important thing to learn is how to learn than the concrete sand you filled in a box in a temporary place in time when you were in school. And so as I think about the economics major, like I said, I spent a lot of time in the Spanish department. For example, I studied abroad and Buenos Aires. A lot of those experiences, I think set up to echo what Brendan was saying, the ability to learn new things with like a very common set of skills that can allow you to be successful in different environments. Thomas: And I think that that would be something I'd pass on to all Holy Cross students that even that first job out of school should be viewed through the lens of just the first step. Right. And even if there is a bit of a learning curve on understanding something super specific to whatever industry or function that you're in, that leaning into those other skills that are lifelong can kind of help you make that something that's more exponential. Conor: Yeah. Thank you. I absolutely agree. Obviously, all of these skills that we learn from the liberal arts education helps to succeed in the business world. But personally, I also think that a big part of it is also the Holy Cross alumni network and everything that they do for us. So how has the Holy Cross alumni network supported you, Brendan? Brendan: Oh, man. I don't even know where to begin because there are so many examples of it. Look, when I was coming out of school, I was doing a lot of meetings. I was doing a lot of coffees and phone calls and whatnot with quite literally just like cold inbound alums and crusaders want to help crusaders. Right? So it's like there's an element of just being part of this community. And if you're an alum, you remember those people that helped you. And so it's almost like a pay it back, pay it forward kind of thing. Another one I'll just say, and I'm not going to, I don't want to flatter Thomas too much, but I will say the alumni network establishing the relationship that we have now and that one being a lifelong friendship first and foremost, and also is flourishing into a number of other dynamics to our relationship that spanned the personal professional continuum. Brendan: And so, I mean, it is the alumni network in a lot of ways that brought us together. And I would say, yeah, Thomas is going to shake his head at me. But I actually look up to Thomas in so many ways in his entrepreneurial spirit, his courage, his commitment, his ability to go from the macro to the micro. And so this, the Holy Cross alumni network, you are engaging with it right now, like the potential and the vibrancy of it. And the encouragement I would give as Thomas was alluding to it before is like you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. So leverage it, take advantage of it. Brendan: As alum, we want to help. And so don't be afraid to reach out, but it is on the individual student to take that first step be proactive, because there's a lot of Holy Cross grads every year. We don't know who needs what and what, where, so it's like people need to come and like have an ask or have a, they want to have a conversation or whatever it is, but just demystifying the fear of taking that first step. Because it's pretty good once you... The water's pretty warm in the alumni network. Conor: Absolutely. I think every person I've talked to in the networking field has been amazing, an amazing experience, and they're so willing to help, which is awesome. Thomas, do you have similar experiences with the Holy Cross alumni network? How have they impacted your- Thomas: Yeah. Well, I mean, first off, thanks Brendan for the overly flattering words. But I mean, I think I can probably answer it just through a story. Right. And it kind ties into how Brendan and I even know each other. But I was terrified my senior year of not having a good job. So I was economics major thinking about finance. I think a lot of Holy Cross students think about that path because it's something their friends are looking at. There's a lot of really good relationships there. And I had no idea what else was out there in the world. And so I had lots and lots and lots and lots of networking calls, reaching out to people, asking about it, those kind of things and a lot of people were super helpful. And a lot of times I didn't help myself in terms of like really thinking about what I wanted, what I like to do and what gave me energy. Thomas: And so with Brendan, it's funny how it happened was he was doing a Holy Cross Finance Bootcamp. I think one of 40 people we followed up, but what I remember about our first networking conversation is it didn't feel forced, right? There was overlap and commonality and things. I think we ended up talking for 20, 30 minutes past the time that we allotted. A lot of it not about working at Silicon Valley Bank at the time, which is what I was thinking in a very short term way. Long story short, I didn't end up going to work for Silicon Valley Bank. I interviewed a few times, went to different places. I ended up going to grad school and then in technology consulting, but Brendan and I maintained our relationship. Right. Out of the maybe hundreds of calls we've had, I've kept in touch with maybe three to five people. Thomas: And then Brendan the most out of all of that. And it's super non-linear in terms of the benefit of that. Like Brendan said, friendship, a lot of professional advice. Brendan is an investor in what I am now working on now. And so if you look super short term around the alumni network even, if you're just like, "I want a job from this conversation," I did not get a job from the first time that Brendan and I chatted. But four years later, Brendan was the first, one of the first people to encourage me to work on INDX, which is the company I'm trying to build right now and continues to be one of our biggest supporters. Thomas: So I think that's one other thing I'd tie back is it's not a temporary access point. I think when you think about an alumni network, I think it's a great opportunity to build relationships that can be lifelong. And Brendan graduated in 2006, I graduated in 2017. We're both now working in the world. There's no difference, right? We have similar interests, a lot of overlap and a lot of support for one another. And I think I wouldn't have had that opportunity without that entry point through Holy Cross and then you can kind of take the rest from there. Conor: Awesome. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Yeah. So Thomas, I guess we'll kind of leeway into this question about current students looking for jobs and internships. Obviously it can be very stressful managing with school and extracurriculars and stuff. So could you tell me a little bit about your experience and maybe provide some advice for students looking for their first internship or their first job? Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. I'll tell you what I think now, and then I can also frame it with what I actually did, which like a lot of advice is kind of how it goes, right? You learn it by suffering. I'll start with my own experience. I had absolutely zero idea what I wanted to do and was very... I think like a lot of Holy Cross students wanted something that would be good, that would look good, that I thought I wanted. And so chased and tried a lot of things where there wasn't a ton of fit. Through that process ended up finding technology consulting, helping out companies build tech products, which I can kind of talk about a little bit later on, which is where I ultimately landed, but it was a very roundabout way. So the advice I'd give would be explore as much as possible. Thomas: And then when you have opportunities and have a little bit of fit, like exploit. Explore exploit is kind of the mental model I think for thinking about it. But there is an insane range of things that you can do, especially when people talk about business broadly, like that's a, obviously I think it's like the entire economy, except for a couple of preset tracks like becoming a doctor or a lawyer, where there's kind of a credentialing hoop there. So I would say try as many things as you can, try to build things, try to do things, try to do it on your own and figure out what you like, which sometimes can fall on deaf ears when you just want to know you're going to make money, know you're going to have a job when you're out of school. Thomas: But I think the more you can look at it as something a bit more of longer term in terms of finding fit, the better off you'll be in terms of testing that out. And I'll hand it over to Brendan on that point, because I know that his first job became many jobs within the same company and to what he's doing now. But I mean, that was definitely my experience of it. Brendan: Yeah. I would again, echo a lot of what Thomas just said. I had gone through while at school as I mentioned, I'd gone through a pre-career shift if you will, like being pretty tracked on being a doctor and then morphing into something more business. I always had an eye towards financial services. So coming out of school, same thing. I was looking for something that was going to look good on my resume, make some money. And with the idea that I probably actually wasn't going to be there for very long in the... I like Thomas's model around explore exploit. I would definitely... That resonates with me probably more so today than it did back then. But even back then, I kind of just thought like, okay, this is going to be a stop on the train and I'll figure it out. Brendan: What happened was I wound up staying at Silicon Valley Bank for 15 years, but it was not the same Silicon Valley Bank for 15 years. And it was like my job function through those 15 years, took three discreet kind of shapes and sizes, four really. So even within, while it's the same company, it was very different jobs and workflows. And I think in the end, just you got to follow the learning, follow your growth edge. If you don't feel like you're developing, particularly earlier on in your career, if you don't feel like you're developing and gaining skills and building relationships and just growing as a human, it's probably not a great fit. And that's probably... The trust your gut. Brendan: And that's probably the time to start, whether it's like doing some deeper work on yourself to understand where you want to be in five, 10 years and then work backwards. Or just, if you have an idea of where you want to be, then getting tactical around what the next move is. But I think it starts with, if you feel like you're everyday challenged and learning and growing and doing it with people that you enjoy being around, then that's probably a pretty good thing. And if the opposite is true, then it's probably time to start considering something else. Thomas: The only one quick thing I'll layer on that is I think a lot of times, and Brendan kind of gave me this idea. When you think about internships in college, it's a very formal thing. But if you think you might want to be like a product manager or help build products, try to build something. Like if you think you might want to be in finance, get one of those dummy stock trading apps and trade dummy stocks that you can talk about. If you think you might want to be in sales, go sell something, right? Thomas: I think one way to combine the best of the liberal arts education and giving yourself the best starting point out of school is as you have those inspirations, layering in action on top of it so that there's a learning. I think if you make what you're going to do after school something that's very hypothetical, it can be easy to kind of not encounter blind spots that you have about what that actually entails. So I think that'd be the only thing that I'd add on that. Again, I didn't do that. So I mean, this is retrospective learning, but- Conor: Well, thank you. I really appreciate that advice. And I know any student my age or around my age, listening to this will also very, really appreciate the advice as well. So Thomas, when looking back at your four years on the hill, what is your favorite memory about Holy Cross? I know there's probably a lot, but- Thomas: Yeah. I mean, I think the, I mean probably a cliche answer, but definitely the friendships and shared experiences. I'm still very close with a lot of the people that I went to Holy Cross with to, I live in Denver now. One of my very close friends lives here as well. He's still one of my very best friends from school. Relationships built with people like Brendan. I got married last summer and I think three of my groomsmen were from Holy Cross. And I think it's just those relationships and those shared experiences without being too cliche or stealing Brendan's answer. Brendan: Yep. I'm going to go cliche and you in fact did steal my answer. So I'm just like, yeah, it's in the end, Holy Cross's community and there's the big community that is Holy Cross at large and then we all have our micro communities that we curate while we're there. And like Thomas, most of my closest friends in life today being 16 years removed from Holy Cross are my friends from Holy Cross. And so there's countless, countless times of just like just being together, getting into a little bit of trouble, having some fun, learning a lot that you just cement these relationships for life. Brendan: And so it is cliche, but it's also true that the people that you're making, I mean, when you're in college, you're really becoming an adult. You're becoming a fully independent human and you're forming relationships on your own accord, full stop. And so just leaning into that and enjoying the time there, but also recognizing that it's not over after the four years. In a lot of ways, it's just beginning. And I think as an example, the relationship that Thomas and I now have is an example of how that can continue. Conor: I agree. I've made so many valuable relationships so far at Holy Cross and I haven't even graduated yet. So I'm excited to see who else I can meet and generate relationships with. So we're going to ask one more question about Holy Cross and then we'll get into INDX and the app. So how has the Holy Cross mission influenced your work? Thomas, you want to take the first one? Thomas: For sure. I mean, I can start with that. I know we'll talk a little bit more about what I'm working on now, but I think, thinking about men or women for others, the thing I'd layer on top of that I think as it relates to how I think about what I work on is solving problems that matter, I guess, would be how I'd put it. There's an infinite amount of problems that you can chase and tackle in the world and tackling ones that you personally care about that will be beneficial for society being someone with a vocation for others. I think business is one of the best avenues to do that. If you can set up a sustainable way of solving a problem at scale, I think that's one of the best ways to have out size impact on issues that you care about. Thomas: And so I think we'll get more into what we're trying to build with INDX, but a lot of it's around lifelong learning or continuous learning after you leave school. It's something I'm very passionate about. It's something I think is very important. And I think that helping people continue to learn and adapt and almost own their self-learning or self-education is something that is I hope a net benefit for folks. And also something that thinking about the purpose or having a vocation that kind of comes from Holy Cross is how I think about where to spend my time and what kinds of problems that are worth solving. Conor: Awesome. Thank you. Brendan, how has the Holy Cross mission influenced your work? Brendan: Yeah, not surprisingly, a lot of the same kind of values that Thomas just shared. I would say as far as like where I'm at now, I guess the best way to characterize myself is I'm an entrepreneurial investor. But I'm also building a business myself called Can Deliver Advisors. But the ethos of everything that I do spanning my entrepreneurial activities, my investment activities is really about empowering individuals, democratizing access and opportunity to as many people as possible. In addition to just selfishly wanting this product to exist, a big reason why I am so honored to be as involved in the INDX story as I am is because of exactly what Thomas said in that, by building a product, a company, an experience for individuals that enables in this case, lifelong learning, what a gift. What a gift to the world and what an important thing to be doing in this day and age where there's a lot of just noise that's out there. Brendan: And being able to parse that signal from that noise, using a tool like INDX, it really, it powers down into those just foundational values that certainly Thomas and I both share around everything that we're doing is actually in service of others. So you peel back the business, the capitalist, the narrative around that, it's actually like what a tool to business aligning incentives in ways to create products, experiences for people to advance humanity. We're getting= pretty meta here, but it's a pretty inspiring thing to feel like that's what you're doing on a day in day out basis and that's what Thomas I get to do. Conor: Awesome. Thank you. It was so amazing to hear about both your Holy Cross experiences, but now I'd like to hear more about your company INDX and more specifically why you started it and the goals you have. Personally, I've downloaded INDX just to take a look at it and I love the app. It's awesome. And it's been very educational and eye opening, and it has allowed me to learn various new material in a multitude of different formats. And I really like the diversity of different topics that the app offers as it makes room for a variety of different lessons to be learned. So before we get into the more personal questions about INDX, can you provide the audience with a brief description of the app? Thomas: Yeah, for sure. In super simple terms, I like to describe it as kind of like Pinterest, but for learning. So we make it easy for you to save the podcasts, articles, videos, Twitter threads that you come across so that you can save and share it with colleagues and friends. So as you come across something seems interesting to you, you click a button, you get reminded to go back to that content. So you actually read it, watch it, listen to it, and then be able to connect with the community of people who are trying to learn about similar things and the tactical. On the higher level, more on the mission side of what we're trying to do is content creation is exploding. So there are tons of articles, videos, podcasts published every day, just the amount of content is insane. Thomas: And so one of the theses we have is that it's going to need some curation and community for people to be able to connect and learn around that content. So what you see with the app today is very much the beginning in terms of trying to get off the ground, but what we're trying to make it easy for people to do is find really, really high quality curated content around what you're interested in. So for example, Brendan has a Bitcoin collection on INDX. If you're interested in Bitcoin, rather than just going on YouTube or trying to learn about it on your own, you can basically fight through a lot of the noise to find some signal from someone like Brendan, who has done a lot of the work to know what content is worth spending your time on. So we're not exactly sure what that looks like right now. Part of it is being very iterative and chasing it, but that's the higher level problem that we're trying to solve. Conor: Awesome. Thank you very much for that description. I know we've kind of briefly went over your career paths to it, but Thomas, could you briefly explain your career path that has led up to your decision to create the app INDX? Thomas: Yeah, for sure. After Holy Cross, I went to a graduate program at Notre Dame. It was a technology entrepreneurship masters, so it was a really cool I think and beneficial additional experience on top of my Holy Cross education to learn a lot, push the technical skill sets for me, which is around data and analytics, and also learn a lot more of entrepreneurial skill sets specifically around technology. And after that, I went to work for a company called Avanade which is owned by Accenture, and then Ernst & Young in their technology consulting practices, basically helping really big companies build out products and services that allow them to better serve their customers. So if you think about like the Starbucks app, that's not an exact example, but helping a company build a loyalty and rewards app and building that out. Thomas: And then as I was doing this, I felt like I was building a lot of the skill sets to be able to go into entrepreneurship, which is what I always wanted to do. And as I came across the pain point for INDX in my own life more and more, being a young professional outside of school, I was very used to learning. And I felt like I had to continue to do that and doing it purely on my own was very difficult. What content should I spend time on? If I did consume a great podcast, there was a lot of friction in maybe like calling Brendan up and asking him to listen to it so that we could both have a chat about it. And that's kind of what inspired the leap into trying to build what we're building now to make that a lot easier for people to benefit from all the incredible business, productivity, health content, name the other topics, that way you can kind of self-learn or self-educate as a part of a community. Conor: Awesome. Thank you. And Brendan, I know that you talked about your first job was Silicon Valley and how you climbed up through the ranks through there and had possessed multiple different jobs while you were there. But can you explain a little bit after where you went after Silicon valley and then what led you to your involvement in INDX and how you decided to become a essential partner? Brendan: Yeah, so I would say so Silicon Valley Bank is a organization as the name infers is a heavily focused on the innovation economy. So does a lot of work in the technology space, which is where I spent my entire 15 years SVB doing. And so for the last 10 years I was there, actually it was an entrepreneurial experience in and of itself under the umbrella of a big company and actually starting, we'll just call it a venture capital practice within the bank. It was technically debt investing versus equity, but that doesn't matter for purpose of this conversation, but it was really an investment business into growth stage companies. And did that for 10 years at SVB. So I really got schooled and trained and learned a lot about venture capital investing in early to mid stage businesses that are in growth. Brendan: And so that is, as I think about my investing being my craft that I practice, it is like I'm not going to be your guy that tells you the best public market stock to pick. I'm much more of a asymmetric thinker in terms of invest early in opportunities that yes, have a high probability of failure, but also have significant upside potential to them. And so as it pertains to INDX specifically, in addition to just how it kind of aligns with a lot of the values and the ethos that I just operate within at like kind of the foundational level, from an application perspective, and then obviously overlay the relationship that I have with Thomas, it was a very logical investment. In addition to the fact that like, this is a product that I want and I use this thing every day, not because I'm investor, but because it actually adds efficiency to my life and value to my life in the curation process, the consumption process, and then the community aspects of it as well. Brendan: And so it was fun. Thomas was so kind to bring me into his entrepreneurial ideation. We had a lot of meetings, whether it was over lunch or in an office or on a phone where we just riffed. We literally just like, because this wasn't his first idea. Thomas is an entrepreneur through and through. He's constantly, I'm sure he is thinking about stuff right now. Maybe not. But I remember we had a lot of conversations about a health app at one point, Thomas. The point is like being in on the, like Thomas inviting me in on the ground floor, seeing his entrepreneurial wheels turn and go from idea to now something that is in full blown execution mode has been a really, really been a really fun, been fun to be a part of that journey. So yeah, I'll just leave it at that for now. Conor: Awesome. Yeah. Thank you very much. Seems like Thomas is quite the entrepreneur. Thomas: Not yet. We're working on it though. Conor: So Thomas, I've read a little bit about you and Susie's road trip and the day that you guys came up with the idea for INDX and it is a very interesting story. So could you please share that story with the audience? Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. And no, thank you for mentioning Susie. But so Susie Lira-Gonzalez is my co-founder. We actually met at Notre Dame. She went to Gonzaga, so not quite Holy Cross, but they're in the Jesuit family. Heartbroken by their lack of a title in March Madness yet again, but she's being resilient. But I'll share a few things, like first off, we haven't been successful yet in the definition of an exit or making our company public. But it is a long road that you try to take as quickly as you can when you're trying to test and validate if an idea is worth working on and then building it. And there's a lot of people who support and that's what makes it really fun. And so in addition to Brendan and Susie, as my co-founder, we worked together in technology consulting. As I was kicking around ideas, it sounded a lot different than the product is today, but we were in a car ride from Redmond, Washington. Thomas: We were at Microsoft for the day, back to Seattle, which is where I lived at the time, just talking about different problems that we faced and kind of both had a lot of overlap in terms of our conviction that helping people learn from distributed content would be a big problem. And we didn't know exactly what that was. And so it's been the two of us and we're now a team of five over the past year. But those early, early days, or even now, you need partners. You need people who are going to support you in terms of figuring it out. And super thankful for Susie with that as well, especially because we have very complimentary skill sets, which she's an engineer by trade and very operationally focused where I can come at things from more of a higher level. So I guess the takeaway from that is finding partners and team members and whatever you're working on that compliment the way you think and how you like to solve problems. Conor: Awesome. Thank you. What a great story. But I love how INDX is for lifelong learners like we are here at Holy Cross. So have you guys always wanted to create an app or something that promotes lifelong learning or did that day driving home to Seattle just searching from some inspiration for you guys? Thomas: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think there's a few things. I think that there's your values, right? Like Brendan was kind of talking about earlier. And then you can't just build something because you care about it. At the end of the day, there has to be a problem and you have to be able to solve that problem for people. And so I think you get lucky when you find a problem that you experience personally, that you also care a lot about in trying to solve it. So definitely didn't always have this in mind. Like Brendan was saying, there's a lot of other problems and ideas that we looked at related to health, related to other aspects of education and learning. And this is kind of the one where we just saw the most early demand or in talking to people and testing the idea, building prototypes, that kind of thing got the most traction. And that's kind of what we just continue to chase is additional traction, additional ways to level up and see if the business is viable. Conor: Awesome. Thank you. Seems like a great, great idea. And I know that there are probably so many different steps and factors that went into and are going into making the app of INDX. So can you briefly summarize and explain the process that it took and is taking to create the app? Thomas: Yeah, for sure. And I think the layer I'd add on top of it is I think that Holy Cross students, hopefully making this useful and interesting for people, like as you're thinking about career paths, I think working for startups, being in entrepreneurial environments that Holy Cross students are very preset to benefit there. A lot of it involves critical thinking, communication, having clarity of thought, going to gather evidence on things, right? And I think that that education can really help you chase that. But I think the process is like in simple terms and there's no one way to do it, but the way that we've done it is when we had the initial almost hypothesis of a problem for a particular person, we went and talked to them, tried to better understand and not solution or come up with what exactly an app or a software or an email service or whatever it is, looks like, but really define the problem and the pain that someone goes through and their experiences, and really observed that. Thomas: And then we built something that was really crappy, but people still used it, which kind of told us that even this really crappy thing might be worth making better because people were still able to... For example, the first app we built quickly, you had to put in your password every time, which I'm sure you can imagine, Conor, like you wouldn't want to do ideally, but people were still using. That was a pretty good signal that we could keep doing it. And then we ended up raising a little bit of money and built a team around the idea to chase. And we're still building out the app right now. It's not done. It's a constant work in progress. But I think the main thing is staying super close to who you think that customer is, seeing how they're interacting with it and continuing to be as intellectually honest as you can, if you're actually solving the problem and able to build a business on top of it, which is kind of the stage that we're at now. Thomas: We have the app built. We have some investment that gives us time to figure it out. And the next steps for us are, what channels can we go through? Do we really know who that beginning customer are? How are we going to monetize the product in a way that is sustainable and has incentives aligned with the user are kind of the challenges that we're tackling now. And each time you gather evidence, make a decision, see if you're right or wrong. And then if you're right, you can keep going. If you're wrong, you got to go back and see which I guess road in the woods you're going to have to take next. Conor: Right. So I guess a follow up for that. So how do you guys promote and advertise the app? Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. We haven't spent a ton of time on advertising until recently. A lot of it has been, so having like 1,000 people in a beta or like people coming in, super communicated with them as they're using early versions of the app. And it's just gotten to the point now where we're able to start to push for more people, just because we have more conviction where we're at and kind of pushing to handle it. There's a, like you want to figure out that value hypothesis first before you can grow. Because if you're building something no one cares about, when you try to grow, they're going to try it and then they're going to leave. And then you should just go back to the drawing board and making sure that you're creating that value. Thomas: But predominantly through newsletters and podcasts, which probably makes sense given what the app allows you to do. But the most traction that we've got is either organic or paid advertising in different newsletters. People who are already self-selecting into owning their own education and they're learning, subscribing to a writer or listening to a business or a technology or a health podcast, those kind of areas is where we've had the most success. And that came from trial or error. We've played with Instagram ads and stuff like that and they didn't play very well for us relative to kind of those more specific forms of advertising. Conor: Awesome. Thank you for that. Would you say that your liberal arts degree majors in economics, has it had like an impact in your creation of INDX? And if so, how did it help you in the creation of the app and moving forward? Thomas: Yeah, I think it definitely helped. I think the main thing it helped with is just the experience of it. When you're in school, you have a professor who's spending time curating content that you're going to spend time on. If you're in a history class or an economics class, like read these materials, spend time on this. And then after you kind of consume that, you have an opportunity to connect within a community that's just built in your classmates. And I know you're not there yet, Conor, but you hit the professional world and you really have to make time for that learning. Like a lot of times it can feel like there's just an immediate task at hand that you want to tackle. But continued learning is also important, right? We also live at a time where the ability to create content has basically no cost. Thomas: If you look at the podcast we're creating now, it's one of millions and millions that will be published, I don't know, in the next couple months. How do people find the content that's worth spending their time on? And once you do spend your time on that content, how do you have a feedback loop around it? How do you connect with somebody who also read it? How do you maybe revisit that three months ago? And I mean, that's how people learn for the most part in the professional world. There's a lot of friction in taking a course or going to night school if you're building a family or have a full-time job. And so as we think about trying to solve that problem, it's kind of taking this spirit of that education, where you can consume great content and connect with great members of a community and make it way, way, way, way lower friction and have software that helps people do that on their own. And it could become a different variation as we continue to learn more but that's how we're thinking about it now. Conor: Sweet. Thank you very much. Obviously you guys have made a lot of progress on app, including a blog and a podcast. So what next steps or ideas are you thinking about? There are so many different topics for people to submit podcast blogs and articles under. So have you guys thought about adding any other topics as well? Thomas: I think the main thing, the stage that we're at right now, and I'd love Brendan's take on it as well is we're still hunting for people call product market fit, right? Like iterating on the product where it's truly pulling people in and doing a great job and solving that challenge for them. So less of thinking about like tactically, what we're going to add. The main mode we're in right now is just hunting for the iteration that can hopefully actually crack the nut. So as you think about growing or people using it, or giving feedback on it, at the end of the day, you're trying to find continued traction or where to go next based on if you're actually solving the problem. But Brendan, I'd love your take on that as well. Brendan: Yeah. I think as far as what I'd add there is identifying your initial addressable market in any early stage business is critical. You cannot be everything to everybody at all times, particularly in the earliest of stages of a company's life. And so it relates to what Thomas is saying, but like finding the, when I say beachhead, there's a certain addressable market from a demographic perspective that you want to target, and that could be age, that could be educational background, that could be interest, that could... There's a whole bunch of different facets to that, but it's really figuring out as fast as possible through as much iteration as possible, what that best beachhead, that best early addressable market to focus on and then exploit it. Brendan: Again, back to the explore exploit thing. You don't want to explore forever and try and do everything because then you'll accomplish nothing. Once you kind of tap into that early sign of product market fit, like engaged addressable market, then you just go. You go run it that hard. And to me, from the purview that I set with INDX, it feels like we're entering into that phase where we're really going to start getting tactical around the exploitation of the addressable market that we are in the mid to late innings of really nailing. Conor: Sweet. Thank you for that input. So the final question we're going to ask and then wrap it up is what does your five year plan look like? And so are you guys interested in selling it off, merging, expanding or et cetera? Thomas: Yeah, I think it's a good question. I'm not sure there's a five year plan related to it specifically. I think it really depends on trajectory, right? I guess, answering it generically, like it could not work and essentially go to zero. There's acquisition, there's continuing to have the built business grow and eventually have companies go public. I think in general, what I'd close with is I think that it can be challenging, but it's a lot of fun and worth pursuing a problem that you care about. I think that Holy Cross in general, the community, other students, as they look at career opportunities should look at something similar. And so for me personally, whether it's with INDX or whatever may come next, it's the kind of ecosystem that I want to be involved in, like early stage technology startups. It's very dynamic. There's a lot of opportunities to solve problems that you care about and technology's changing every day, which is going to give you new tool sets to solve those problems. Conor: Awesome. Thank you. Brendan, do you have any input on that? Brendan: Yeah, I mean, I don't have much. Yeah. I tend to just be as much of a sounding board and a... Just for Thomas and Susie. And so ultimately I think INDX could become a bunch of different things. And ultimately the market's going to be the referee and all you can do is continue to just be maniacally focused on executing, on solving the problem that INDX is setting out to solve and what's going to be, is going to be not to be. Not to finish on a super cliche, but there you go. Conor: Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much for your time. I really appreciate hearing about your Holy Cross experience and how you use your liberal arts education to pursue the business world. And then I also, it was awesome to hear about INDX. Such a great app. I know on my part, I'm going to talk to my friends about it, show them the app, have them download it, check it out. Because I know definitely a good amount of my friends will be into that and then bring it home to my hometown, talk to my parents, my siblings, and hopefully they can bring that in their own paths to their schools and their colleges. So hopefully we can all have a part. Thomas: Feedback is much appreciated. So as you play with it, let us know. Conor: I will. I will. Thank you, Thomas and thank you, Brendan. Brendan: Thanks, Conor. Thomas: Thanks, Conor. Maura: That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be people for and with others. A special thanks to today's guest and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, then please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcast. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, "Now go forth and set the world on fire." Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

Welcome to Season 3!  New episodes will be released througout the spring and summer of 2022. The first episode of season 3 features a conversation with Chris Mann '00.  Chris has built his career around making a difference in the lives of others.  He's joined in conversation with JP Cunningham '23.  They discuss Chris' time at Holy Cross and how he has carried the HC mission to serve others throughout his life and career. Interview originally recorded in November 2021. -- Chris: And so, I think you're seeing companies really say, "This is about our values and being clear on what our values are." Because our most important stakeholders, our people are saying that that's what matters to them and that's what they care about. And so, I think we just think about business differently. Maura: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. This episode features Chris Mann from the class of 2000. Maura: Chris's career has spanned roles that have one thing in common, making a positive impact on people and communities. He graduated from Holy Cross with a psychology major and art history minor. With this foundation, he joined the Dana-Farber and Jimmy Fund team, and his career flourished. Skilled at fundraising, event planning, marketing, and communications, Chris flexed his talents and roles at New Balance, Cone Communications, Reebok, and City Year. Maura: At the time this podcast was recorded, Chris worked as the Senior Vice President of Development for City Year. At the time this podcast is aired, Chris will have assumed a new role at Bain Capital as the first Vice President of Community Affairs, leading their philanthropy, employee volunteerism, events, and sponsorship. Chris is joined in conversation by JP Cunningham from the class of 2023. Maura: Their conversation is far-reaching but starts with the transformative years that Chris spent at Holy Cross, his time on the track and field team, and serving as senior class president, as well as his experiences during immersion programs and running summer orientation helped shape who he is today. Better yet, he can count the ways that the Holy Cross Alumni Network has supported him through each step in his career. A proud alumnus, Chris exemplifies the impact that one person can make by committing their talents to mission-driven work. JP: Hello, everyone. Thank you all for listening. I'm JP Cunningham. I'm a junior here at Holy Cross. And I'm joined by Chris Mann. Chris, how are you doing today? Chris: Hey, JP. I'm good. Good to be here with you today. JP: Thank you. So, yeah, I guess with that, we'll get right into it. I wanted to start with a little bit before your time at Holy Cross. So, my first question is, during your college search, what were some of the factors that drew you to the college? And was it your top choice? Yeah, if you can touch on that. Chris: Yeah, absolutely. So, like most high school students, I was looking at a lot of different schools. I didn't quite know what I wanted. I was the first and oldest child in my family, so I hadn't any brothers or sisters go through the college application process before. And at the time, this was in the mid-'90s, there wasn't as much information. It was kind of the glossy books you got in the mail and things like that, and word of mouth. But I knew a couple of things. Chris: I knew living in Andover, Massachusetts and growing up there, I wanted to be close enough to home that I could get back and forth. So, that kind of kept me looking at New England colleges for the most part. And as I started exploring, I knew about Holy Cross's reputation from an academic standpoint, but also had a couple of people at my high school, Andover High School, that I remember really respecting and looking up to in some ways that had gone to Holy Cross a couple of years before me. Chris: So, Chris Sintros, who was a class of '98, and Christine Anderson, class of '99. And I think it just piqued my interest to say, "Hey, those are people that I think I want to be like, and they chose this school." I actually got really fortunate to end up at Holy Cross. It was one of, I think, five schools I applied to, and I was waitlisted. So, I actually didn't know that I was going to get in until right to the end, and was really relieved and excited when I got in off the waitlist. Chris: And it ended up being a great scenario because I came on campus as the only person from my high school going to Holy Cross in that class. And I was matched up with three roommates in a quad in my freshman year. And it really helped me build some relationships and a network right away in a new place, new environment. JP: Awesome. That's really cool. Yeah, I can kind of relate to that, too, because both my dad and my sister went here, and then a lot of just friends and older classmates at my high school went to Holy Cross. And they're all just role models. And I felt the same way like, wow, this seems like a good place to be and that's what drew me there, too. So, it's great. Chris: Yeah. And I would say too, in visiting the school and seeing it, I mean, I certainly fell in love with the classic New England brick college, IV and setting, and it's a beautiful campus, as you know. And so, that, I was really excited about. And I started to get more and more of a field just as I came to visit a couple of different times. Chris: And as you started to read in and hear about the college's mission, and talking about being men and women for and with others, that all started to really resonate for me and felt a little different compared to some of the other schools that I had been visiting, and I loved that. I also really thought that the size was right for me. I was somewhat of a shy kid. I think I was trying to figure out where my place was. Chris: And I liked the idea of being in a school that felt a little smaller and where I wasn't going to get lost in the shuffle. And I think that ended up being a really big thing for me over the course of the four years, too. JP: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I feel like people might say it's cliche, but I feel like at Holy Cross, the sense of community, just being on campus that first time, at least for me too, visiting that first time, there's something about it that really draws you and makes you feel like, "Hey, this is the place for me." Yes. I guess moving into the next question, after you became a student here, what were some of the things you were involved in during your time on the Hill? And was there one that you were most passionate about? Chris: I got to do a lot of different things, which was to our earlier point, the benefit of going to a smaller school with a lot of opportunities. Off the bat, athletics ended up being a big thing for me, which wasn't something I had planned. I had done sports in high school all three seasons. Really, I was passionate about basketball and track and field, but hadn't expected to be able to do that in college. Chris: And I showed up on campus and I remember, I think it was probably the first week of school, I got a phone call from Larry Napolitano who was the captain of the track team just saying, "Hey, we saw you did track and field in high school. Would you be interested in coming out and joining the team?" And I said, "Yes", and it was one of the great experiences of my time on the Hill being able to be part of that team. Chris: I certainly wasn't a phenomenal athlete or setting any records, but being part of that team environment, getting a chance to get into the daily routine that athletes do I think really benefited me. The structure was really helpful. I think it prepared me for life after college and having a busy schedule of going from weightlifting, to workouts, to classes, to other things. Chris: And just the relationships you build with teammates and coaches and the life lessons of athletics were really valuable and it helps cement a lifelong practice of fitness and health that exists to this day. So, that was foundational. That was a big one. And then, later in my time at Holy Cross, my senior year, I ended up getting encouraged to run for student government. And I ended up being elected president of the senior class of 2000. Chris: And that was a really powerful experience for me, too, so having a broader role in leading fellow students and thinking about our voice on campus. And to be honest, putting myself out there more publicly to run and be elected was not something I was very comfortable with or used to. So, building up that courage and having people believe in me to do that was also really important. And I think it started to show me that maybe I could do some things that I hadn't previously been confident enough to do or thought I could do. Chris: So, that was another big experience. And same thing, balancing those commitments with academics, with athletics really prepared me for life after college and the working world. JP: That's great. Yeah. I feel like balancing all those activities, being a full-time student athlete while being the president of your class can only help you in the long run and having that structure to your schedule and balancing different activities. Because I don't play any sports, but just balancing activities week by week with the schoolwork and all that, it definitely... I feel like it can only help you for after you graduate. JP: So, yeah, going off that, I guess a little more shifting towards the academics. One of the great things about Holy Cross in liberal arts education in general is that you really have the opportunity to major in anything that piques your interest, and then go out and succeed in business or whatever field you choose. So, I know you're a psychology and art history major. Were there any specific skills that you developed from your course of study that have helped you in your professional career? Chris: Yeah, it's interesting. It was another case of I didn't know what I wanted to study. When I came to Holy Cross, I started taking a few different classes in different areas to try and understand what resonated with me and that was what attracted... the liberal arts education attracted me to Holy Cross as well because I didn't know what I wanted to do. Chris: And I found myself really intrigued in the early psychology classes that I took, whether it was Intro to Psychology, or we had some ones later, behavioral psychology and other things, that just fascinated me between the... both the science and the depth of that field, but then also the ways in which humans interact and the way in which our environment influences us just fascinated me. And I really found myself loving that. Chris: And then, on the flip side, I ended up getting a minor in art history, similarly, because I just found myself interested and passionate in the subject matter and human experience behind that. I wouldn't have thought at the time that either of those would translate into a career path or job. I wasn't going to be a psychologist. I certainly wasn't an artist, but I have found over time that I think there are some lessons in the specifics of that. Chris: And in my current job in previous iterations where I'm a fundraiser, and in essence, I sell people on City Year's mission and investing in City Year's mission, some of the experiences and the lessons from psychology come out there, and understanding how you engage and connect with and influence people. So, that is certainly there. Chris: But more broadly, I just think the liberal arts' approach and specifically Holy Cross and the rigor of the academics forced me to really get tight and concise with my thinking, with how to make an argument, with how to take in information, synthesize that and consolidate it and communicate in a really effective, clear way, both verbally, written, visually, et cetera. Those are things I lean on on a daily basis. And I don't think I appreciated it at the time. Chris: But in talking with friends and colleagues and others whose college experiences were very different, either giant lecture halls or other things, the time, the attention, the rigor of the academics was really valuable. And I don't think I realized it until much later. JP: Yeah, I agree. I feel like everyone... and that's also one of the things that drew me to the liberal arts education is the fact that people say, obviously, you study what's interesting to you, but then being able to develop those skills like critical thinking, communication, and just being able to use those skills effectively go a long way in the professional world. So, you touched on some of the activities you were involved in when you are here at Holy Cross. JP: And since you graduated, there have been a number of new programs, activities. For example, the Ciocca Center for Business, Ethics, and Society was established in 2006. Are there any programs or activities happening now that you've become aware of at Holy Cross that stand out to you or you wish were around when you were a student? Chris: I think the Ciocca Center would have been something I would have really enjoyed getting a chance to participate in. I think this idea of business and ethics and where those intersect, and how companies can have an impact on society has been the centerpiece of my career and the different jobs that I've had. So, I think I would have really enjoyed going deeper there in a more formal way, for sure. Chris: I also really appreciate what the college has done in the last few years as we think about diversity at Holy Cross and how is the Holy Cross experience accessible to all. That is, I think, one takeaway from my time. Certainly, we had some level of diversity when I was at Holy Cross, but it was not nearly what it needs to be and what it should be going forward. And I think particularly for fellow classmates that were of color or came from different backgrounds and the majority of students, I think it was a really challenging thing for them and continues to be. Chris: And so, I think the idea of having a college community that does have more representation, does have more diversity across all levels and spectrums of how diversity shows up is valuable because I think, to be honest, it creates a better learning environment, it creates better dialogue, it creates better understanding. And I think that was a challenge, to be honest, during my time at Holy Cross. Many of the students were just like me coming from the same families, communities, et cetera. Chris: And so, that's something that I've been very encouraged to see over the last few years. JP: Yeah, absolutely. I feel like as a student for me and talking to alumni like yourself and just other people I've spoken to, people just say it's awesome to see the way the college is changing for the better, both academically and socially, like you just touched on. Moving a little away from strictly Holy Cross, can you maybe run through your career or professional path starting after you graduated from the college? Chris: Yeah. So, I was really lucky, and this is an area where I talk to current students or students that are considering Holy Cross, and the network of alumni really stepped up and helped me start my career and pursue the opportunities I've had. And I've been really fortunate to come across Holy Cross graduates at every role, every organization that I've been in, which speaks to the power of even the network of a small school overall. Chris: So, I was trying to decide what I wanted to do after graduation. As we mentioned, I had done activities in track and field. I was big into sports, so I was thinking sports marketing and those areas. I also got a chance, while I was on campus, to do a couple of spring break trips via Habitat for Humanity and build some houses down in Tallahassee, Florida for two spring breaks in a row. Chris: That and an internship at the Special Olympics while I was a student started to spark my interest in having a job where I can actually give back and support causes I cared about, and earn beyond a paycheck feel like I was having an impact on a daily basis in my work. So, that was interesting to me. And we had also run and started summer orientations program, the Gateway Summer Orientation Program. Chris: I was fortunate to be part of that first summer orientation program as a leader and then later, one of the co-leads of it. And I found myself really liking and being attracted by events and the planning that would go into preparing for an orientation program or some other event, and then seeing that come together and seeing people have a great time interacting and being part of that event. So, I was looking at sports marketing. I was looking at event management. I was thinking about nonprofits and exploring different things. Chris: And I was talking with John Hayes, who's class of '91. And he was the director of Holy Cross Fund at the time. He was our advisor for our Senior Class Gift. And John said, "Hey, you should really go talk to my friend Cynthia Carton O'Brien now, a class of '93, who was working at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute and the Jimmy Fund." And so, he connected me to Cindy via informational interview. I went and learn more about Dana-Farber and the Jimmy Fund, and just loved the idea of it. Chris: It was a cancer hospital, obviously in Boston, doing amazing work for patients and their families, but also had this deep connection in history to the Red Sox. So, as a sports fan, I was excited about that. And I ended up applying for a couple of different jobs there coming out of school. And on the fundraising side, one was potentially to work in plan giving, so helping people think about their giving benefiting those beyond their lifetimes and resourcing the organization for the future. Chris: And then, the other one was going to be a rotational role, which was going to work on different areas of fundraising, the Boston Marathon Jimmy Fund Walk, donor advance and stewardship events, and then also cause marketing, which at the time was a fairly new thing that companies were starting to do. And so, I ended up getting that second job on the rotation. And it was just a phenomenal opportunity experience to get to learn different parts of fundraising and to work with some really, really great team. Chris: So, when I think about advice for people coming out of school and what to think about, I think finding a job where you can learn as much as possible and get exposed to as many different things as you can certainly really worked out for me. And it gave me a chance to understand what parts of fundraising and events that I really liked and what worked well for me. And I was also really lucky to work with just some amazing people. Chris: In particular, my first boss and my first teams on the Jimmy Fund Walk, which later included a couple of Holy Cross grads in the years after me that we hired as well, was just a perfect first start into the working world, for sure. JP: Definitely. So, you may have just answered this next question, but I'll still pose it to you. I know you talked about your experience with the Gateway's orientation. So, would you say that was something that from your time at Holy Cross that greatly influenced your post-grad experience and career? Or were there few other things? Chris: Gateways did influence me mostly in that I realized that I really enjoyed working in a team environment and it was with a lot of students from across different grades that I hadn't met or didn't know before. And I think that idea of working in a team that had some diversity in their experiences, et cetera, is definitely something that's resonated longer term and I've realized leads to a great work environment and a great end product in that Gateway's orientation. Chris: I definitely love the event planning piece of it. And so, I think that steered me towards my first job, for sure. As I got older, I realized I didn't love the always on and the stress of the event planning and so I've since moved to other areas. But I think the idea of that camaraderie and coming together to build something bigger than yourselves was really valuable for me. And I also loved being able to share my experiences with others and with other students. Chris: And so, getting a chance to really talk to people and help share my experience was something that I valued. I think it was probably an early stage mentorship. I don't think I realized it at the time, but I think that's what drew me to it was being able to work with students who were coming into a Holy Cross environment, nervous about it, not sure what to do, and really saying, "Hey, this is going to be a great experience for you. And here's all the reasons why or here are some things to look at." Chris: I realized I think later that that idea of being a mentor and having that mentoring relationship is something that I really value and enjoying doing. But again, I don't think I realized it at the time. But I think it was one of those foundational things, for sure, at least in the early jobs. JP: Absolutely. Yeah, that's awesome. I feel like it's cool to think back on the different ways certain events or activities that you took or spend so much time participating in can go such a long way in your life and the decisions you made, and things like that. Chris: I think so. I think other experiences, too, that I had probably more steered in that direction of what I wanted to do for career, I think having the opportunity to do an internship during my junior year with the Special Olympics of Massachusetts and help to do the marketing and recruitment for a Polar Plunge event that they did sparked an interest in, "Oh, you can do marketing, and you can do these types of business things that I want to do that have an impact for our cause." Chris: And Special Olympics was near and dear to my heart because my mom was a special education teacher. And so, I saw firsthand the power that that can have when you have inclusive opportunities for all young people, and give them a chance to participate in athletics and have those same experiences and lessons that I did from it was really valuable. So, I think the idea and the spark of having a job that can have an impact started there. Chris: And then, I had a summer experience in between my junior and senior years at Holy Cross, where I worked in an educational camp for kids called Super Camp and spent a few weeks on a college campus working with students that were struggling academically. And what we learned in the process when you get to meet these kids and work with them is that, in most cases, it wasn't because they didn't have the ability to learn or to do those that work. Chris: It was because there were other things going on in their lives that were either being a distraction or creating additional challenges that made it hard for them to show up in the education environment or in school in the way that they could or they should. And I think that in hindsight really is why I find myself loving the work that we do at City Year right now. And it's come full circle in that way because we see that talent is absolutely equally distributed and it's everywhere, but access and opportunity are not equally distributed. Chris: So, that's part of what we get to do at City Years is to say, "How can we make sure that every student gets the opportunities that they deserve to really tap into their talent and see success in their futures?" And I think that experience at Super Camp really gave me the first understanding of what education can look like when it works for everyone. JP: Yeah, absolutely. So, while we're looking in hindsight and reflecting on your experience post-Holy Cross, I know there's a lot to say about the strength of Holy Cross's Alumni Network. Could you tell a little bit about how that network has influenced your professional career? Chris: Yeah, it's influenced my professional career because I've been lucky to work with Holy Cross grads in every step of the way in every job almost that I can think of. So, at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute and the Jimmy Fund, we hired Joe Robertson, who was a track and field classmate of mine, class of '02, Rebecca Manikian in the year before, '01. So, I got to work with both of them on the Boston Marathon Jimmy Fund Walk and had a community and a shared experience with the two of them. Chris: Worked with Kristina Coppola Timmins at Cone Communications. And Rebecca and Joe also were ended up being Cone alumni at different points. And then, now, a huge number of Holy Cross grads, past and present, that I have worked through, including my current boss, AnnMaura Connolly, class of '86. So, I think at every step, I've seen Holy Cross alumni show up both in the work environment and help in the broader network. Chris: There's not a question that I would have or a connection I'd be trying to make that I couldn't reach out to somebody at Holy Cross and just say, "Hey, we share this background. Can you help?" And there's been countless times where I've had Holy Cross grads that I either know or don't know be willing to offer advice or make a connection, no questions asked and right away all the time. And I think that's fairly rare, at least in my experience. Chris: And it always surprises me how we'll be having a conversation and somebody will say, "Oh, they went to Holy Cross." It's amazing I think how people show up, particularly in the space that I'm in where you're working in the nonprofit field or in other jobs that are trying to have an impact on society. I think that's where the Jesuit teachings I think resonate for folks. And they really internalized that learning and those values, and I think it shows up in their career choices, and it certainly did for me. JP: Definitely. Yeah. Even for me as a student, I feel like something everyone can agree on is the strength of the Holy Cross alumni network. And something I always think about, even before I became a student here, just like walking around, wearing either a Holy Cross hat or that purple shirt, I was surprised and people would be surprised based on how many times you would get stopped, like, "Oh, you went to Holy Cross. I was a grad from this class." And I think that's something really special about that network. Chris: Happens all the time. And you see it in families, too. I mean, you're seeing it in your own with your sister being a grad. And I'm hopeful that my kids will end up being graduates as well. But I think you see that legacy in a lot of ways among families, among communities, where that becomes more than just an individual experience. It's a shared family experience, which is a pretty special thing. JP: Yeah, definitely. And even the fact that, like you mentioned, even just being a student, the fact that any alumni you either reach out to or you meet, they're just so willing to sit down and talk for as long as you need and give you advice or whatever the purpose is for that phone call or that meeting. They really just sit down and are willing to help in any way possible. So, I think that's something that's awesome about the college. JP: So, moving along, I think one of the great things about this podcast is that it highlights and showcases the different ways that Holy Cross mission of men and women for others can play into so many different careers and stories of different alumni. So, I guess just to start, what mission or values fuel your professional work today? Chris: Yeah. It's interesting, I think I've been fortunate to work at this intersection of companies and causes coming together to drive better business and greater good. And it's happened throughout my career and gone full circle starting on the nonprofit side at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute and the Jimmy Fund and moving over to the corporate side at New Balance Athletic Shoe and later Reebok, and then now in my current role at City Year. Chris: Seeing how companies can work with nonprofits and advising some of them on how to do that, when I was at Cone Communications and advising clients on those pieces, it's just always fascinated me that you can have a social impact. And it doesn't have to just be about charity, it doesn't have to be just about volunteerism or working in a nonprofit that there's all kinds of ways in which everybody can do that individually and collectively. Chris: Companies have a tremendous opportunity and tremendous power to be able to do that. And so, for me, I realized early on through those internships, experiences that I knew I was motivated by doing something kind of more than earning a paycheck, that I wanted to see that impact. Personally, I want to have a job that at the end of the day, I could feel like we were doing something bigger. And I think that was always a core value. Chris: I think, for me, that came from my parents. I think my example was seeing my mom be a special education teacher and work with students to give them that opportunity and to address some of that inequity and make sure that education was tailored to their needs and their situation, paired with my dad who was an executive in an enterprise rent a car for his whole career, high powered, highly growing business, and getting to see that side of it. Chris: And I think those two sensibilities really steered what I was looking for and seeing it as an example. I wanted to dig into business problems. I love the how do you think deeply about that? How do you try and solve those? How do you get somebody to buy your product or support your company or do something? So, the marketing and advertising and those pieces of it were fascinating to me intellectually, but I wanted to see an impact at the same time. Chris: And so, I think I was searching for that through each role of saying, "How do we combine those two things? And how does that show up?" In my time at the Jimmy Fund, it was really good for two things. I think my first job there was working a lot with families that were participating in the Boston Marathon Jimmy Fund Walk. And what I realized really quickly was, it was such a huge crash course in empathy and in building relationships and in listening. Chris: Because in most cases, I was just helping people that were participating in the event get registered, get their team organized and set up, get the T-shirts for the event, help them with their fundraising, things like that. But in most cases, I was talking with people that were either in the midst of the worst experience of their life because they were having somebody in their family facing cancer, or they were remembering the worst experience of their life and having lost somebody to cancer. Chris: And so, I think what I found is, you'd have a lot of conversations where people would get frustrated or they'd be angry or emotional, all rightfully so because they were dealing with really hard things. And I think I learned to be able to pick up on that and to connect with them and to try and find ways to encourage and support. And I think it was just a hugely valuable early experience in saying, "How do you connect with people and how do you build relationships?" Chris: "And how do you not take for granted both your own health and good fortune, but also how you'd be there when somebody else is struggling and understand what they're dealing with? And can you lift that load in some small way?" And I certainly was not doing anything significant in that regard and in that role, but I could make their day a little bit easier or solve a problem for them, et cetera. I started to really get excited about the ability to do that. And I found that was really motivating for me. Chris: So, the idea of having a purpose and being able to help somebody in a process during that day was, I think, started to become foundational. I think it also gave me a lot of perspective. You could be having a rough day in your job or something else going on. You could walk down the hall to the Jimmy Fund clinic and see the kids there that are coming in for treatment. It puts it in perspective pretty quick on your challenges and what's tough in your life when you're seeing that with a kid. Chris: So, for me, I think it helped build an immense sense of both opportunity to have an impact but then also an immense sense of gratitude for how fortunate I was. And I think those were two foundational pieces of that experience. And then, later, the second big lesson that I learned and this sparked the longer term career path was, I started to work more with the companies that were participating in the Jimmy Fund Walk, either that were sponsoring the event in different ways or they were getting their employees actively walking and fundraising. Chris: And that gave me a different side of it. It gave me exposure to stuff that I hadn't thought of, which was why would businesses do these types of things? Why would businesses want to have some sort of impact socially, which at the time was still relatively, I wouldn't say uncommon, but it wasn't as clear and upfront as it is today. Philanthropy was something that companies did on the side. It was nice to do because they wanted to be good citizens. But it wasn't a business strategy. Chris: It wasn't something that people were asking them about on a daily basis. It wasn't something that they thought about as part of their broader work as an organization and in their community. And so, that just fascinated me was like, why would companies want to do this outside of a classic kind of capitalist structure where they just have to add value for shareholders in the old Adam Smith lessons and things like that? Chris: And what I realized was, there was so much potential and so many resources that companies could bring to bear to help solve social issues. They had incredible skill and knowledge and power behind what they were doing in a lot of cases, really sophisticated ways to do things as businesses. Two, they had amazing people that they can deploy to have an impact in different ways, whether that was volunteering their time or giving access to their customers, things like that. Chris: And then, three, they can really tell a powerful story. Many companies can reach huge numbers of people and customers in a way that nonprofits can't and don't have the dollars or the access to be able to do. So, they could raise awareness and shine a light on different issues and get people to engage and support in a way that no nonprofit could ever hope to do. And I just became fascinated by that, on what a company could potentially do to have an impact in their community. Chris: And so, I think that job gave me two foundational experiences that I think have started to show up in each of the subsequent jobs that I started to have and really got me on that path. So, I think that's where the kind of being men and women for others started to show up for me was it was like a light went on, like, "Oh, this is how I can do that. This is where I can kind of have that be part of my daily life." JP: Yeah, that's amazing. I think what stuck out to me there was the perspective that you gained and you're sharing with us today is going back to at work or at school, you could be having a really bad day and that's that. I mean, obviously, no one enjoys having a bad day and it happens. But being able to just realize that oftentimes it could be way worse, and there's people, there are children and other people struggling, and they may be having a way worse day than you, I think that's a really important perspective for people to develop and take with them day by day. Chris: Yeah, I think so. Now, we have to acknowledge that that's easy for me to do as a white male, heterosexual, affluent, man of privilege in every possible dimension you can probably think of. I've had every advantage I could possibly have. And so, I think it's easy to say, "Have gratitude and appreciate those things when your life is what my life has been." And that doesn't mean we haven't had challenges and I haven't face things that have been tough, but I think it does give you a bit of a perspective. Chris: And I think gratitude and appreciation for those advantages and those experiences I've had is something that's driven a lot of the work for me and the why. But I would say within that, it's not uncommon, people come to try to have a social impact in many ways because of either guilt or a feeling of charity, like, "This is something I should pay it back. I should give back," and I certainly did. I think that was my perspective. I've been given a lot of opportunity. Chris: I owe it to others to give back in that way. I think when you start to do the work and you start to get proximate and really work on different issues, whatever it is, whether it's education or hunger or any way in which racism shows up in all of our systems, you start to realize that you move on the scale from charity to social justice, and really saying, "This isn't about me giving back or appreciating the opportunities I've had. This is about changing a system that is not just." Chris: "And it's my responsibility to play a deeper role there and to do what I can with the resources I have to drive some change there." So, I think you move from charity to social justice as you start to get proximate and more exposed to issues. And I think Holy Cross planted the ideas behind it and the early experiences, whether it was Habitat or other areas where I could start to see and get exposed to that. Chris: But I think later in my career and particularly at City Year, I started to see that more clearly and I think that's why my career has moved more in that direction. JP: Definitely. Yeah. So, I think you also, with those remarks you made, answered the next question I had, but I wanted to just emphasize. Is there something specific that drives you to work hard each and every day? And my takeaway from all you've just said is, I feel like the common theme of impact and purpose. That's what I picked up on, just whether it's you impacting someone or something, or the company you're working for, or just being able to realize the impact that someone else is having or that greater company is having on a specific cause. JP: That was my takeaway. And I think that's awesome just from a professional standpoint, being able to live by those themes of purpose and impact. That's really great. Chris: I think that's right. I think purpose and impact is the right way to frame it. I do think about that, hopefully, every day. Am I having a purpose and am I having an impact? In the day to day, I think you don't probably get up and get out of bed and think about that immediately. But I do think, as I thought about how I want to work and what jobs I want to take and what organizations I want to be at, I think in those times of reflection, certainly grounding back into purpose and impact has absolutely been the question I asked myself. Chris: Where can I feel connected and closest to a purpose? And where can I have the greatest impact in either my experience or in an organization that's working on a really hard problem? So, certainly, when I thought about coming to City Year and in my most recent role, that's absolutely what I was thinking about is, I had missed being close to the impact in a way that I had at Dana-Farber. Chris: And even at New Balance where I was on the corporate side but working closely with a lot of our nonprofit partners, I got to see that impact on a daily basis. When I moved into Cone Communications and advising nonprofit clients and business clients on their programs and their impact, I loved it. It was mentally fascinating and rigorous and an amazing training ground on all kinds of things around strategy and marketing and communications. Chris: Really tremendous skills and experience. But I found myself too far away from the people that we were serving, and I missed that. I wanted to get closer and back to that. And I think that's what drew me back to the nonprofit side at City Year was a chance to really work among people that were having that level of idealism and impact on a daily basis. Chris: And I also felt like it was a chance to take experiences and skills that I gained from other jobs and put them to really good use in helping, so you think about how we work with companies. Yeah. And I think the working hard piece to our earlier conversation, I think the rigor of Holy Cross academically and then all the other things that I got to be involved in really built that work habit in to where you show up and you do the work every day. Chris: And I think good things happen if you consistently spend the time and put in the effort. And again, I would say I had great examples, whether it's my parents or whether it's coaches and others, that really ingrain that work ethic and constantly trying to move forward for something bigger, whether it was a team that you were part of or whether it was the organization and the issue you were trying to support. JP: Definitely. Yeah. So, I guess to shift gears a little bit here, I wanted to talk about the Boston Marathon. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you ran the Boston Marathon not once, not twice, but three times. Is that- Chris: Four actually. JP: Four, okay. So, the Boston Marathon, four times. At least in my opinion, being able to run the marathon one time is one heck of an achievement. So, could you tell me a little bit about what drove you to do that again and again and again and again? Chris: Yeah, yeah. It was working at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute really was the big thing in our first event. And that I got to work on the Boston Marathon Jimmy Fund Walk. I got exposed to the course because there was a fundraising walk along the route of the Boston Marathon. And we'd have thousands of people walk and fundraise for Dana-Farber along the route. So, I got to know the marathon course, its history. Chris: I got a really good opportunity to work with people like Dave McGillivray, the director of the Boston Marathon, and get to know him and his amazing team and learn from them. And just started to fall in love with that event. I would volunteer at the marathon and see it. And as a former track and field athlete, I wasn't a distance runner by any means, but I started to get it into my head that it would be a really challenging athletic experience. And so, that was interesting. Chris: To be honest, it was my wife that steered me in that direction. She ran the marathon first a couple of times for Dana-Farber and fundraise for them. And so, I got to see her experience doing that. And I'm kind of a competitive guy, so I decided that I wanted to do it myself. And I couldn't just let her have all the fun. So, I did, I signed up and ran for Dana-Farber. I actually got a chance to run that first marathon with my wife who, God bless her, waited for me and dragged me along those last few miles because I was struggling, and she was kind and carried me along. Chris: And then, I had a chance to do it a couple more times, which was great, including when I didn't finish, which was a huge disappointment and a physical struggle. But I got to come back in another year and completed, and it's some of my greatest memories and experiences of participating in that event and being part of fundraising for Dana-Farber, for City Year as part of that. The marathon is a really special event for Boston. Chris: And I think what you learn in that event is that people are always surprised and super like you were complimentary about being able to run that marathon. I fully believe that most people can run a marathon, and I've seen it firsthand on the course. I think what it gets to is our earlier conversation about how do you go pursue your goals and do those things. And anybody that's run a marathon can tell you that the race day is the reward. Chris: It's the thing at the end, it's the countless hours, the 16 weeks before where you're going and you're running three, four, five, six, depending on what your training schedule is, days a week. And putting in countless miles in good weather, bad weather, darkness, snow, rain, cold, your ability to get up and do that each day and keep consistently growing the mileage and keeping the training, that's what leads to the marathon and the success at the end. Chris: So, it's really about, can you do that work on a daily basis? And can you progress over time by sticking with it through the ups and the downs? And then, I was really lucky to train with great groups of people each time. And I think that's another lesson of it is, it's pretty hard thing to go train by yourself and go run a marathon by yourself. Most people that do it have done their training with a group of friends and other people that are running that helped motivate them, support them, and inspire them. Chris: And then, day off, all the people that are out there are cheering you on, supporting you, helping you get to that day. It's truly a team effort. So, I just got to get the rewards of doing it four times. JP: Yeah, that's an awesome achievement. And I have a ton of respect for you and anyone who does that. In fact, one of my buddies here at Holy Cross, Colman Benson, he's a sophomore, and he ran this past marathon. And just seeing him go through that training earlier in the fall, I'd be like, "Oh, what are you doing tomorrow?" He's like, "Oh, I'm running 12 miles in the morning, then I'm going to class." And I just think that's very impressive and definitely an awesome achievement. Chris: Yeah, it's not too late, JP. You can start training, too. JP: Yeah. So, I read in a previous interview that one of your most memorable achievements is your support of Susan G. Komen for the Cure while you're with New Balance. Can you speak a little to that? Chris: Yeah. So, after my first couple jobs at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute and the Jimmy Fund, I mentioned I found myself just becoming so fascinated by what companies could do. And I realized that I really wanted to experience it from a company's perspective. I wanted to get over to that side of the work. Around that time, I also decided that I wanted to go deeper into business. I was working with companies. Chris: I was asking them to support us, but I didn't really understand business in a deep way. And so, I ended up going back to graduate school at night to get my MBA while I was working at Dana-Farber. And I ended up making the switch over to New Balance and taking a job there really that was the opposite or the flip side of what I had been doing at the Jimmy Fund. Chris: So, instead of asking companies to support us and asking them to sponsor and have their employees participate in our events, and have an impact in that way, I was helping to guide New Balance's investment in different nonprofits in the community and thinking about how we showed up with our dollars, with our products, with our people to support those efforts. And so, the job was to manage what New Balance called their cause marketing work at the time. Chris: I sat in the marketing department at New Balance. I was measured in the same ways that other marketers were on driving awareness of New Balance's brand, consideration of our product and trying on footwear and apparel and things like that, and then ultimately sales of that product, which was great. And I loved it because I got a chance to really get into the marketing and science of that, which was fascinating, and do it at a brand and in a field of athletic footwear and apparel that I was personally passionate about as a runner and as an athlete. Chris: So, best of both worlds there. And it was just a great opportunity to take what I knew from the nonprofit side and bring that sensibility into the corporate environment into how we showed up and work with our nonprofit partners, whether it was Susan G. Komen for the Cure or Girls on the Run, which was our other major partner. And I just loved it. And I think that really crystallized, this is the career path for me. Chris: I can work with cool products and in areas that I really liked, but I can have an impact in that way. And it just opened my eyes to what was possible for companies. New Balance was such a special place because it was a privately held, family-owned company, had a tremendous number of people that I worked there for years. It really felt like a community of people in ways that the Jimmy Fund and Holy Cross actually felt very similar to me, and that's what I loved about being there at the time. Chris: And we got to do some really cool things, whether it was working on all the different Komen events. I had a chance to meet Joe Biden, President Biden, when he was vice president at the time at an event for Komen and New Balance, which was amazing. We got to do great things, marketing our products, and attending different events, and meeting celebrities. I went on The Ellen Show to give away million dollars for breast cancer research and got to have the big chat out there and hand that to Ellen. Chris: So, amazing, unique experiences that I wouldn't have other ever anticipated getting a chance to do as a result of that job. It's a really special company. And later, I got a chance to really go deep and work with Girls on the Run after my time at New Balance. After I left New Balance, I had a chance to join the board of Girls on the Run and serve on their board and chair their board for a few years. Chris: And to get to work with that amazing nonprofit that focuses on women's leadership development and girls empowerment through a running curriculum and really social-emotional skill building curriculum was just an amazing experience to, again, work for another world-class nonprofit and get a chance to see it grow. So, another really fortunate opportunity for me. JP: Yeah, that's incredible. That seems like such an overall special, I guess, group of things that you got, meeting the president and going on The Ellen Show. That's awesome. So, I guess, it seems like it's hard to top those experiences. But has anything changed in terms of your most memorable milestone since then in your career? Chris: I think you start to look at what are the skills and experiences and most importantly, the relationships you build over your career. And each of those are really cool memories and experiences. But I think what matters is the relationships that you start to have and build over time. So, when I think about those different jobs, it's more about the people that I got a chance to work with and get to learn from. Chris: And I think City Year as my current job and organization now for the last eight years, that's what I start to think about and focus on is how have I gotten the chance to work with and learn from really great people, and continued. I think, even in this kind of midway through my career and later in my career, I feel like I'm still learning and growing on a daily basis, and getting better both at what I do tangibly functionally in my work. Chris: But also as a manager, as a boss, as a co-worker, as a parent, I think you start to pick up those lessons. And I think for City Year in particular, it's by far the most powerful place that I've ever seen as far as helping people really build connection to one another and to help us really explore who we are and how do we show up as our full selves at work on a daily basis. And how do we do that for other people, whether it's our co-workers or whether it's the students we work with in the schools we serve in. Chris: I think that's the amazing lesson and opportunity of City Year. So, I would say I hope I haven't hit the highlights of the careers. I got a lot of work left to do. And I think we've got a lot more to accomplish and learn. So, I'm excited about that. JP: Definitely. The best is yet to come. All right. So, now, to shift over, I know earlier, you talked about the idea of cause marketing and how that plays into your career. And I know that's been around for quite some time now and is becoming increasingly popular and being leveraged by businesses and nonprofits. So, for those who are listening who might not know a lot about it, could you speak a little about cause marketing and what that means to your career, past, present and future? Chris: Yes. It's interesting, you've seen a real change over the decades in how companies think about their responsibility and impact to society. And early on, it was very much about volunteerism and employees coming out doing different things. Or it might be about the company writing a check and the CEO handing it over to an organization. There wasn't really a business strategy. It was, "Hey, we recognize we're part of this community. We want to support our community and we find ways to do that." Chris: And then, what you started to see late into the '90s, early 2000s is companies started to read realize this could actually have a deeper business impact. People want to support companies that are doing good things in their communities. And we can tell that story via our marketing, our public relations efforts, via sponsorships and other things, kind of classic marketing and sales approaches. And so, they started to integrate cause into that. Chris: And so, you start to see opportunities like buy this product, we'll donate XYZ. And then, you started to see buy one, give one like TOMS and other new models of cause marketing come in. But in the early days, it was still very much kind of a business strategy using cause to drive it. So, it was, "We know people care about this cause. And if we talk about being associated with it, it would get them to buy our product or get them to take this action." Chris: And what we've seen over the last decade plus is that's really evolving and going deeper. I think what we started to see, particularly when I was working at Cone Communications and advising clients, we started to say, "What's unique about your company and the work that you do, the industry that you're in, the expertise that you have? And how could you connect your philanthropy to an issue that is aligned with your business?" Chris: "So, if you're in the pharmaceutical industry or other areas, how do you align with health and determinants of health? If you're working in other areas, like cable and telephone and others, how do you think about connectivity and digital connectivity being something that you can provide and connect to?" And so, how do you align the strategy and the impact you can have with your business so that those two things are working in harmony in reinforcing one another? Chris: And so, I think there was an understanding that it can actually drive business. And it's not just a nice thing to do that's over on the side, it's an important strategy to drive business. And so, during my time at New Balance and Cone and later at Reebok, I think we were more in that era of saying, "How do we integrate it into the business? And how do we really see it as a unique business driving strategy?" Chris: Now, I think you're in an even different environment, both with young people like yourselves coming into work and into the environment and being aware of social issues in a way that is deeper and more common than I think it was maybe of my generation and earlier, really wanting to have a purpose at work, and looking at your companies and saying, "How are you helping me do that?" And I only want to be here if I'm having a chance to put my passion and my values front and center in a way that was different than I think previous generations thought about work. Chris: And then, two, I think we're realizing, particularly over the last two years with the pandemic, with the murder of George Floyd, certainly the cracks in our system and how it is not equitable, how racism really shows up across all kinds of dimensions to prevent others from having opportunity that they should, and saying, "That's not okay." And people are saying, "We expect to both individually have an opportunity to affect that." Chris: "And we expect companies to be vocal and to step up and to show what their values are. And if you're not, then that's not going to be a company that I'm going to invest my time in personally as an employee. Or I'm not going to invest my dollars in as a customer." And I think you're seeing a whole new era of companies leading and being vocal in a lot of ways around social issues and taking a stand. Chris: And if they're not, people kind of questioning what's going on and why not. So, I think it's been really impressive and powerful to see. There's a lot that still needs to be done, right? There's a tremendous amount of inequity even within companies. And we see examples every day of bad behavior or other things that companies need to do better and need to do differently. Chris: But I will say, in working with many different Fortune 100 companies on a daily basis, the understanding of issues, the way they talk about social issues, the way they talk about their own diversity, equity, and inclusion and belonging efforts within the company is a huge sea change compared to what I saw even five, 10 years ago, which gives me a lot of hope for where we're going. I think we're realizing that capitalism is an amazing system of value creation. It's done tremendous things to grow and build our company. Chris: And the kind of American dream did a tremendous number of things, certainly for my family and many others, but that that's no longer the case for everyone and it probably never was, to be honest. And so, how do we own that and how do we address that? And I think companies are wrestling with that in a more authentic way. And I hope they continue to do that. It's part of what I think my life's work is, is to try and help companies do that. JP: Yeah, definitely. I feel like that, in my opinion, that idea of cause marketing is something that's... I feel like that's got to be something that's just going to become, I guess, take over in terms of marketing. And just seeing it present today, I guess I've been seeing it firsthand with the new Worcester Red Sox at Polar Park in terms of sports marketing. Their whole thing is... I think the program is like In Debt to a Vet. JP: So, they're marketing that product of going to the game and all. And then, every strike out at home, they donate X amount of money to veterans. And then, they also have just other organizations like fighting food insecurity and things like that. So, I feel like I've just been learning more and more about that. And I feel like that's got to be something like revolutionary in terms of marketing and business today. Chris: Yeah. And do you find yourself deciding who to buy from and who to work with as a result of that? Do you see it show up in the decisions you make? JP: Yeah. Definitely, I feel like these days, I see, even buying clothing and things like that, some... off the top of my head, I can't think of any. And shoes too, especially I've been seeing. They advertise the materials they make their shoes out of and stuff like that. And X percent of the money they take in goes to this cause or that cause. So, yeah, I've definitely been seeing it become more and more present today. Chris: I think it's true. I think as a marketer, and I don't even like the term cause marketing anymore because it feels so transactional, and we're well beyond that. I mean, it is a strategy that is useful and valuable, and company should still do. But I think what you've seen is now that you interact with a company and their products and a brand all the time, whether it's in social media or online or in other places, it used to be such a tightly controlled thing. Chris: You kind of created a marketing message, you put it out there in a campaign. You spent weeks developing it and controlling the advertising message and putting it out there. That's just not how we market and how customers engage anymore. It's year round, minute to minute brand building and engagement. It's a very different thing. And so, what you've seen is companies have to evolve to respond to that and say, "Okay, we need to be talking about not just cause marketing, but it's about what are our values." Chris: "And how do those show up in every action that we do, because it's not just the messaging that we put out from a marketing or an advertising standpoint. It's how somebody experienced us in the store, or an interaction they had with an employee, or something our CEO said, or some way they experienced our product." And it's 24-7-365. And so, I think you're seeing companies really say, "This is about our values, and being clear on what our values are." Chris: Because our most important stakeholders, our people are saying that that's what matters to them and that's what they care about. And so, I think we just think about business differently. JP: Absolutely, yeah. And actually, even aside from just that marketing aspect, the whole idea of impact investing and companies just needing to evolve now based on ESG and sustainability and things like that, it's just becoming more and more just the norm. And I feel like more and more businesses have no choice but to evolve and match what other businesses are doing because that's such a pressing topic in today's time as well. Chris: A hundred percent. And you have to, to compete, to succeed. And all the data tells you that companies that invest and do deep things and are high performing when it comes to the environmental, social, and governance measures outperform other companies and succeed. So, it's not just a nice thing to do, an important thing to do for the planet, a good thing to do. It's an imperative. If you want to continue to build a business and have it thrive, you have to lean in those areas. JP: Definitely. So, could you speak about the back and forth relationship you've seen between business and nonprofits throughout the span of your professional career? Chris: Absolutely. That's a great question. I think to our earlier conversation, early on, I think it was more transactional. It was kind of checkbook philanthropy. And we developed some relationships, and hopefully we get some money. And what we've seen, certainly in my time at City Year and why I was excited to come to City Year and work on it, is that changed. And companies were increasingly looking at a much deeper and holistic way to support issues. Chris: And so, they wanted certainly the branding and the visibility, and being able to talk about themselves as being good citizens, and for nonprofits to help validate and help them have opportunities to do that. They wanted to have employees actively volunteering and spending time, whether that was doing different kind of done-in-a-day volunteer projects or weeks of service, days of service, things like that. Chris: Or deeper ongoing skills-based volunteerism where I can share my expertise in marketing or somebody can share their expertise in web design or other things with the nonprofit and help that nonprofit build its capabilities or its skills. And really being able to set ambitious goals, which is what we're seeing a lot of companies do now, and to say, "This is what we care about from a social impact standpoint. Here's how we're going to try and have some impact. And here's some ways we're going to hold ourselves accountable and measure against it." Chris: And so, now, nonprofits are more partners in that process. And certainly, there's a dynamic of where the dollars come. And we certainly are trying to raise money from companies and have contractual pieces of what we do. But in many ways, we're sitting at the table with our corporate partners, and they view us as experts in the space that help them, at least for City Year, understand education, understand urban education, understand racial issues and how those show up in the education space, and are looking for our help and our guidance on how they can have a deeper impact. Chris: And we often think collaboratively and advise and coach them on some of the things they're thinking about. And in many cases, they can offer tremendous support to help us do different things. We've been fortunate to work with Deloitte Consulting as an example at City Year for decades now, and have benefited from having pro bono case teams and others really come and think about how do we grow City Year as an organization. Chris: So, I would say it's much less of a transactional thing and much more of a collaborative partnership, which has been amazing to see. And I think that's the part that I've been fortunate to have worked on the nonprofit side, the corporate side, the agency side, and seeing that from all angles that I think it hopefully helps me be a better partner to our colleagues. But I think there's such a willingness to say, "These are huge social issues that cannot be solved by any individual nonprofit, any individual organization." Chris: And we have to come together and figure out how we work collectively on them to change them. So, I think the level of expertise sharing, information sharing, and collaboration is greater than it's ever been. So, I'm excited about that. JP: Cool, yeah. Thank yo

This episode features a conversation between Maura Fredey '94 and Elina Kang '23.  A proud alumna of Holy Cross, Maura has stayed engaged with Holy Cross ever since graduation. They speak about her journey to owning a Kitchen Design Business with her husband and business partner-- both class of 1993. Forever giving back and staying engaged, Maura proves that Holy Cross doesn't have to be a four-year experience. Even if you leave the Hill, the Holy Cross community is with you for life. Interview originally recorded on June 14, 2021. Due to the ongoing effects of the pandemic, all interviews in season 2 are recorded remotely. --- Maura Fredey: With Holy Cross, if you have the attitude that it's not a four-year deal, it's a lifetime deal, and you make the effort to reach out and stay connected and keep that vibe going throughout your life, that it's a lifetime experience, that can be as much as you want. Maura Sweeney: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, from the class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. Maura Sweeney: In this episode, we hear from Maura Fredey from the class of 1994. Maura is a proud alumna and enthusiastic champion of Holy Cross. After graduating from Holy Cross with a major in sociology, she began her career in writing, marketing, and PR. That's when an ad in the Boston Globe changed her fate and set her on the path that she's been on ever since. Maura Sweeney: With a newborn at home, Maura and her husband Gene, from the class of 1993, embarked on a new adventure running a kitchen design business. It was the best decision they ever made. Maura is joined in conversation with Elina Kang from the class of 2023. They speak about what it was like for Maura and Gene to run a business, and how their Holy Cross education prepared them to create a healthy environment for their staff and business to grow. Maura Sweeney: Forever giving back and staying engaged, Maura encourages students and fellow alumni to go out of their comfort zone to connect and engage with Holy Cross alumni. Holy Cross doesn't have to be a four-year experience. Maura's story is proof that once a Crusader, always a Crusader. Even if you leave the hill, the Holy Cross community is with you for life. Elina Kang: Welcome to Mission-Driven, everyone. Thank you for joining us. My name is Elina Kang, and today I'm honored to be joined by Maura Fredey, class of '94. Hi, Maura. How are you? Maura Fredey: I'm great. Hi, Elina. It's so nice to see you on Zoom, and I'm honored that you took the time to talk to me today. Elina Kang: Of course. Yeah. I've been looking forward to speaking with you and hearing more about your story. So to kick things off, why don't you just tell a little bit about yourself and where you're joining us from? Maura Fredey: So I am joining you today from Winchester, Massachusetts, just about an hour away from Worcester and campus. I actually grew up not far from here, either, in Watertown. So I always joke that I stick to W towns. I grew up in Watertown, lived in Worcester. My time in Holy Cross had a short stint in Walpole, when my husband and I bought a house after we got married there, and then we moved to Winchester, and our business is in Woburn. Elina Kang: Oh, very nice. So how did you kind of get to where you are today? At Holy Cross, what did you major in? What were you involved in? Maura Fredey: So I went to Holy Cross. I applied early decision. I was the class of 1990, public high school, Watertown, Massachusetts, and arrived at Holy Cross in the fall of 1990 having no idea what I wanted to major in or do. But from the first time I went on a tour, when I started looking at colleges my junior year in high school, the first time I went onto campus, I felt that feeling that I've heard others say, that this seemed like the right place for me. Couldn't really describe it, but I just felt like, "This is it. This is where I need to go." And thankfully, I got in early decision, and that was super nice, because I remember still to this day, hearing December of my senior year in high school that I got in, and it was great. Maura Fredey: I didn't declare my major until sophomore year, and I had taken a sociology class, and realized that I really, really loved it. I definitely have always been more of a communications, and writer, and reader type of person, instead of the math, science. So I quickly leaned into those type of classes, and I absolutely loved all of my sociology professors and classes. And I probably don't remember all the names of the classes I took, but I remember the professors, and I remember a lot of my fellow classmates, whether they were sociology majors or not, I remember those classes being so interesting and dynamic, and the books we read, and the articles being just so challenging to everything that I knew as how life is just growing up. Even though I came from a pretty diverse high public high school, it really challenged me to think, to do some critical thinking and did a lot, a lot, a lot of writing, which was really great training for the work world. Elina Kang: Right. Maura Fredey: So decided to be a women's studies concentrator, was called women's studies back then, and before, it's sort of evolved now into gender studies, but I loved that as well. Elina Kang: That's great to hear. I totally resonate with what you said about being on the hill and just realizing that it's the right place for you, because I felt that way too, even though when I went, it was a super rainy day, but I still felt super, super at home. It was great. Maura Fredey: Oh, that's so nice to hear. Elina Kang: Yeah. I love it. And I also think it's so great that so many people go to Holy Cross early decision as well. I know so many of my friends who were early decision, and they got in. I think that shows how people really love Holy Cross. Maura Fredey: I agree. Elina Kang: Yeah. So I know you mentioned that you kind of are in the kitchen and bath business, bath design business. So what inspired you to get there, and kind of just your path from Holy Cross to there? I think that's really interesting. Maura Fredey: Well, it's a very strange path. Elina Kang: Those are the best. Maura Fredey: I happen to be married to another alum, Gene Fredey, class of '93. We met in what was then Mulledy Hall. It's now Brooks Hall, I believe. Elina Kang: Yeah. Maura Fredey: We met each other my freshman year, and we're pretty opposite in our tonalities and our academic approaches. He was a physics major, believe it or not, which I didn't go anywhere near a physics classroom. So we got married. We actually got married at Holy Cross. Elina Kang: I love it. Maura Fredey: And we got married in 1998. I was in the healthcare communication field. In fact, I got an interview with a Holy Cross entrepreneur, Terry Driscoll, who had started Madison Publishing, in health care communications in Boston, and that was a super fantastic first job, with a lot of other alums. Learned a ton, and I continued on that path, stayed with that company for about six years. Then I went into public relations for a hospital system in Boston, which was also great. Kind of broadened from the writing and editing more to also encompass public relations. I worked with a lot of medical professionals, which was great. Maura Fredey: Gene went the CPA path, public accounting, and was working as a sort of a controller and a CFO. And we had our first child. At the same time, he was sort of thinking, "I really don't want to be an accountant sort of in an office. I want to spread my wings, and I'd really love to run my own show or do something that doesn't involve really being at a desk all the time. It's a little broader." And I had sort of built up a consulting basis in communications and writing. So I was doing that, and that was going great. I had a lot of clients and had a little baby. It was a busy time, but good. I had a plan. Maura Fredey: And what happened was, Gene started doing some research of business opportunities, and came upon, back in the day, when we were still looking at hard copies of the Boston Globe, a teeny tiny, two by three advertisement in the Boston Globe, looking for a consultant controller with an option to buy a building supply company in Woburn. And he was kind of intrigued. Gene has always been sort of like a hands-on, do it yourself, DIYer. He had refinished our basement in Walpole, in our first house, on his own. So he's like, "I want to go check this out." And again, we had a teeny tiny baby. I was doing my consulting work. He took that opportunity and started diving into this small business that was run by an older couple that had started in 1993, and they were kind of getting ready to retire. Maura Fredey: And the more he did the consulting controller work and learned about the business, he said, "You know, I really see a lot of potential here. I could see how I could get in here, and what I know from my business operations experience and my financial work and accounting acumen, I feel like I could really do a lot pretty quickly here to help this business really take off." So he decided to start negotiations to buy the business, which is a really crazy thing to do when you live in Walpole, and the business is in Woburn, and you have a teeny tiny, couple months old baby. Elina Kang: Right. Maura Fredey: But we had confidence enough in his judgment, and our skills, and our strength together, of the tools that we had in our toolbox, to go for it. And thank goodness. It's really worked out better than we could ever imagine. I quickly realized that my skills in communications and public relations and marketing could be better applied now to this business adventure that we were going to go on, and that I immediately got involved too. At first that wasn't sort of my design, to do that, but it quickly made sense that if we put our right brain and left brain together, we could really do a lot to grow this business. Maura Fredey: So neither Gene nor I design kitchens. I definitely shouldn't. I like to be around that atmosphere. We have an outstanding five-star team of kitchen designers, business operations people, truck driver, warehouse folks. Just an amazing team that's been with us for all these years. But what Gene and I really do, and what Holy Cross has helped us to do, is to provide the foundation to create a healthy business environment and a home away from home for this team of 20, about 20 people, that they can come to work and feel like they are contributing to a prosperous company that's doing great things for people's homes, right? How much time do we spend in our kitchens or bathrooms, living spaces? But also a place that is a second family, really. Elina Kang: Yeah. Maura Fredey: And the success of the company financially, and the vitality of the company, and what we offer in relationships in the community to our homeowners and the contractors we work with, and even the interactions with our vendors is very fulfilling, because I feel like at the end of the day, I always say it's not about the cabinets. It's not about design. It's about the relationships, and the ultimate experiences that you deliver for people, helping them meet their goals. Whether it's creating a great job experience and opportunity for someone's career who works on our team, or a family, or a couple, or an individual who comes in, really is trusting us with a good chunk of change to help improve the space where they live. Elina Kang: Right. Maura Fredey: And it really, it's fulfilling in that way. Elina Kang: Yeah. That's wonderful. Maura Fredey: That was a really long answer. Elina Kang: No, no. I love it. I love hearing about how Holy Cross has just affected your present day life, and how it continues to do so. And I also am actually on the CPA track right now. So that's really interesting to hear, because I know myself and I know I don't want to be in accounting forever, but I am glad to hear that there are so many things I can still do with what I learn at Holy Cross. Maura Fredey: You can do anything. I am the biggest promoter and cheerleader for a liberal arts undergraduate education. Elina Kang: Yes. Maura Fredey: One of the things when I was thinking about doing this interview today with you, Elina, is I don't really want to talk about myself all the time, or Gene. And I have an interesting story. I mean, how did a physics and a sociology major- Elina Kang: Right. Maura Fredey: ... running a cabinetry design place in Woburn. I mean, if you ever told us that when we were in our residence hall, when we were at 19 and 20, I think that's just the craziest thing. But when I think about the relationships that we still have with our friends from Holy Cross, they are nothing less than like siblings to us. And when I look at the leadership positions they have today, and you people always say, "Well, what did you major in?" And it matters, but it also doesn't matter. Maura Fredey: When you get a Holy Cross education, I look at ... We have a very, very dear friend who's like a brother to us, Dave O'Callaghan, and he is the Chief Financial Officer for Massachusetts Department of Children and Families. He's a math major. So sure, that makes sense, as far as the type of skillset things you're good at, but I look at him and I see a leader, and I see a leader because of what he got at Holy Cross. And we have another friend who's a psychology major, and he runs the Sheraton Commander Hotel in Cambridge. And one of my classmates, Francine Rosado-Cruz, is the Director of Global Diversity and Inclusion for Microsoft. People are leaders. So your major matters, of course, because you have a concentration of a type of skill, but I really feel like the critical thinking, the ethics, and the community, the training you get to be an active, committed community member at Holy Cross, is what helps you do anything. Elina Kang: I totally agree. Yeah. I am only out of my second year now, but I am continuously learning about kind of what I'm learning at Holy Cross. And I feel like it goes beyond just what you learn inside the classroom. And I feel a drive to be a part of the community, and even though in high school I felt like that too, it was never, I guess, as passionate as it is now. So that definitely is something that Holy Cross, I think, brings out a lot in people. And I think those are the types of people that Holy Cross attracts as well. Maura Fredey: I totally agree. It makes me proud when I look at my classmates and Gene's classmates, and especially going through COVID and hearing about Dr. Fauci. And everyone from those people who are really famous alumni to one of my roommates, she always was so interested in teaching and young children and education. And I think about her, in the Albany area now, she's doing exactly what she was born to do, and she's so good at it. Maura Fredey: And then my other roommate, who is just a brilliant mind, and the most unassuming, modest person, is running a law firm that her dad had for years, and he's passed on. But I always joke with her when I talk to her, and it's few and far between when we reconnect now, but I always tease her and say, "Are you remembering to charge people?" Because she's just doing so much pro bono good work. And I think about her mind, and how she's sharing her legal mind, and her compassion, and her just amazing generosity with the world. And it just humbles me to know where all these people are today and what they're doing. Elina Kang: Yeah. And that's super inspiring from my side too, because I get to hear all these success stories. Maura Fredey: I know. It's amazing. Elina Kang: Yeah. Even though some people are maybe discouraged now about where they might end up, maybe they're not exactly happy, or are unsure or confused, there's always something, I guess, that Holy Cross will bring. Maura Fredey: Absolutely. Elina Kang: Yeah. It'll just continue to really resonate in them throughout their entire career. So that's amazing. I love that. Elina Kang: So I guess kind of related, but switching gears a little bit, I know we talked about this kind of the first time we talked, the alumni network that Holy Cross brings. And as I'm part of the Women in Business Club and the Conference Planning Committee, we are really, really interested in the alumni network and value the alumni at Holy Cross. So kind of, do you want to speak a little bit more about your passion for the alumni? Maura Fredey: I would love to. I could talk all day about different examples, since I became an alum in 1994, until today, the unbelievable loyalty, passion, camaraderie, and the feeling of commitment among the thousands of alums out there. And I guess the main message, and I guess I would like to speak to any, in particular younger, more recent grads, who happen to be taking time to listen to this. Thank you for listening, if you do. Let me know. But I guess the message I really would like for people to hear is, you get out of it what you put into it, and don't be afraid, right? Reach out to alums, even just to say, "Hey, I noticed that you're an alum. I want to thank you for how you're contributing in your field in this way." Or just create a touch point, and don't be afraid to do that, because if you reach out, I feel like with Holy Cross, the likelihood of someone reaching back is so much stronger because of the foundation we share. There is something different and something special about the Holy Cross alumni network. Maura Fredey: And I think that what I feel is very different about Holy Cross than many, many other schools, even Ivy League schools, people think that there's just so much prestige attached. And of course there is, but I really feel that with Holy Cross, if you have the attitude that it's not a four-year deal, it's a lifetime deal, and you make the effort to reach out and stay connected, and keep that vibe going throughout your life that it's a lifetime experience, that can be as much as you want. And you can do things with Holy Cross ... I mean, I'm lucky to have two girlfriends that are like sisters to me that I went to Watertown Public Schools with since I was five. And they tease me about, "You go back to that school a lot still." And, "We're almost 50, you know." But there's never a lack of opportunity or really engaging chances to connect with people outside of the people who are on campus when you were there. Maura Fredey: One of the ways Gene and I have been able to really have some deep and meaningful connections is through President's Council. And I guess that's another message I'd like to share is, for the more recent grads, check it out. Go on the Holy Cross Alumni website and check out President's Council. And one of the great changes that the college, the advancement office made in recent years is making the levels of giving more accessible for more recent grads. Maura Fredey: And that group of alumni is just, the talent and the engagement and the opportunities for connection within President's Council are tremendous. No matter what field you're in, or geography, I really feel like it's been the gift that keeps on giving for us, and just by being part of President's Council. We've also made good friends, other alums from a wide variety of different class years. So the layers keep adding on over the years, and it's really something special that you can, especially during COVID, we've got Father Jim Martin, the Jesuit who does some wonderful writing. We got to log on and have a Zoom book discussion. And of course, Dr. Fauci, and there's regional events. And a lot of times there's opportunities to come back on campus, have lessons in Carole's. If you can get to Worcester, and there are little receptions, you can meet people before that. Maura Fredey: So it's just a really, it's a reinvigorating way to come back and have that touchpoint back at the college where I feel like gives me so much inspiration and grounding, no matter what else is going on in your life. And of course there's the more traditional things you can do, like using the online alumni directory, and I guess my message is, don't let it be a four-year experience, and be deliberate about finding ways to reach out, and I think you'll be happy about the ways that people reach back. Elina Kang: Absolutely. I love the phrase, "The gift that keeps on giving." Maura Fredey: It's so true. Elina Kang: Yeah. Maura Fredey: It's so true. We have met, even in the past five years, and I also, with my own class, I was one of the 25th reunion gift chairs, and I cannot believe the friendships that I've made 25 years out. People I knew of, because you kind of know by recognizing people or people's names in your class, but we didn't hang out at all, probably never had a conversation, now that I consider friends. And so it's just, again, it was a good amount of work serving as a gift chair for the 25th year reunion, but it was totally worth it. And I'm so lucky to have so many more relationships now with classmates, so far out from when we left the campus. Elina Kang: Right. Yeah. And that's great to hear. It just keeps on going. Elina Kang: I feel like there's something so special to Holy Cross, too. I don't know. Maybe it's because we both went, or I go to Holy Cross and you went to Holy Cross, so we're like, "Yay, Crusaders," but I don't know. I feel like my friends and I always talk about how people who go to Holy Cross are so passionate about Holy Cross and are just so excited about Holy Cross. If you see someone who went to Holy Cross or even have a Holy Cross sticker on their car, you're like, "Oh, Holy Cross! Holy Cross!" Maura Fredey: Yes. Exactly. Yeah. I feel like, my daughters have teased us. Of course they've got both of us, and now our oldest daughter is actually joining the class of 2025, as you know, Elina, for Gateway, one of our Gateways. And another hat you're wearing. Thank you for volunteering for Gateways. Elina Kang: Of course. Maura Fredey: Because you're wearing that hat as well, and we're lucky enough that you were assigned to Caroline. So we're just over the moon that she's going to be a student next year. So they've grown up seeing that in action. Whether we're traveling out of state or wherever, same thing. You see someone with a Holy Cross baseball hat and you're like, "Hey, did you go to Holy Cross? What year?" It's a little different, in a good way. Yeah. Elina Kang: Yeah. I heard actually, I was talking to a girl I met over at Gateways Orientation, and she was talking about how I think she was at a doctor's office or something, and this woman had a necklace of the Holy Cross campus or something like that, and she was like, "Oh, did you go to Holy Cross?" And then she was like, "I go to Holy Cross." And they had like a 10, 15 minute conversation. Maura Fredey: Yes. Yeah. Elina Kang: Yeah. So there's just that connection. I absolutely love it. So continuing on, as we were talking about your daughter, Caroline, I know she's going to be a Crusader in the fall, and I'm so excited to welcome her to our community. I'm sure you are as well. And there's probably so much great advice that you already offer her, but if you had to pick, what would be one of the best, or what's the one thing that you would tell yourself if you were in Caroline's shoes again? Maura Fredey: I think when I look back, I wish I was a little bit more daring. I mean, I was very, very reserved, and I would say she is as well. We share that at that age. And I was so blessed that I had just a random roommate assignment. We ended up being roommates for four years, and I was so lucky with the friendships that I developed. It was very easy. But looking back, I wish that I explored more clubs or had the confidence to be more engaged. I feel like over time, and that's probably normal, as you get through college and into your twenties, you start to gain more confidence. I feel like I was a late bloomer. Maura Fredey: So I guess I would say to try to push yourself out of your comfort zone, because, oh, I just, I'm jealous now, because you know, if I could go back and take classes that seemed a little more daunting, or a club that I thought, "Oh, well I don't know anybody there. I don't think I'll go." Just to just go for it, because Holy Cross provides such an amazing atmosphere to experiment with different ideas and experiences and academic content. And the idea is, it's okay to try something and not ace it, and it's okay to try something and not love it. And that's kind of the point, right? It's okay to not know. Maura Fredey: So I guess I would say to feel confident leaning right into that, and just make the most of it, because it's such an amazing, amazing opportunity to figure out who you are and what gives you passion, right? Elina Kang: Yes. There are so many opportunities that Holy Cross, I think, offers, and as an orientation leader, I try to emphasize that too, because I know that it can be intimidating, because I've been in that position before. Maura Fredey: Sure. Elina Kang: Where, yeah, I've been interested in something, and I didn't have any friends that I met right off the bat who were also doing that. And so kind of leaned back a little bit and second guessed. And I feel like the opportunities that I did take advantage of, I always got something out of it. It was never like, "Oh, I shouldn't have done that. If I never did that, then my life would be the same." Maura Fredey: Right. You always learned something, right? Elina Kang: Right. Maura Fredey: Even if you aren't the best at something, or it turns out you really don't enjoy it, you still learn something about yourself, right? So I think that's such an important thing about how you approach your college experience. Maura Fredey: Interestingly, last night, we had our module one, where parents logged on, and Caroline logged on in a different room with her student link, and I just feel like the messaging and the inspiration of Dean Freije, and her class dean, and the chaplain's office speakers, and all the student experiences that are available, everyone is just so warm, and welcoming, and encouraging. And as a parent now, putting on that hat, it just feels right. I'm thrilled that I have that same feeling for her that I had when I first walked on campus. I said, "This really feels right for her." Of course, Gene and I are biased, but I really am feeling that great sort of peace with the fit. Elina Kang: Always. Yeah. And Holy Cross always takes that extra step to make parents feel that way, or make students feel that way. And that's so special to Holy Cross too. And I felt that when I was choosing, and I was looking specifically for community that didn't feel like a competition. That it felt like everyone wants you to succeed and everyone wants you to do great, and I am totally happy with how I feel about that now. Maura Fredey: That's great to hear. Elina Kang: Yeah. And so I hope that incoming students feel the same way, or that they have felt the same way so far with the orientations or with their campus visits. Maura Fredey: I have a good feeling about it. Elina Kang: Yeah. Me too. I think it's going to be great, and with everything kind of opening up again, and there's a lot more hope, and I think people are ready to jump back into just opportunities and experiences. So very excited. Elina Kang: I don't know if you have anything else to add, any closing remarks. This conversation has been really inspiring and encouraging. Maura Fredey: I guess the last thing I would say that would be important as far as bringing a meaning to my professional life and my role as a parent, and a spouse, and a daughter, sort of caring for elderly parents through their challenges, is the Jesuit piece. And that part of the faith formation, and a Catholic education, undergraduate education, but also Jesuit specifically. And I think that at the time, when I was 18, it felt nice. And it felt like a nice type of angle, as part of your education. But looking back, I'm so grateful for that. And I think it's just been such a beacon for me personally, in every role that I have in life. And I want to say thank you to Holy Cross for that. I think that it's just been so important, and I'm so grateful to have my child have that opportunity. So I think that's important to mention. Elina Kang: Yes, definitely. I think it's so important that Holy Cross, that people know about the Jesuit component of it. And I think some people kind of let that part go over their head, but just our mission statement and our motto of, "For and with others," I think is just really important. Maura Fredey: I agree. And I think at this point in the timeline of the world in which we live, I am so grateful to have that foundation, and I'm so grateful that my daughter will have that. It's something that I couldn't even begin to put into words. I'm so grateful. Elina Kang: Right. And I'm so excited to kind of go into the real world. Even though I've only been there two years, I feel just so right. I feel like my path to go into the real world, it's just so right, and it's following exactly how I would have imagined or how I wanted to. Maura Fredey: That's so amazing to hear. And I think that you seem wise beyond your years, and I am, just getting to know you over a few conversations, preparing for this interview, I'm just so impressed and amazed at all the things you have going on. And you've already grown into a leader in your sophomore year. And I also want to mention how awesome the Women in Business program conference I've gone to, I actually was on a panel years ago, in its earlier days. I've attended many. I am always absolutely blown away by the students who step up and coordinate that, and the opportunity. I think it's fantastic that Holy Cross now has the business ethics and society minor, and the business certificates. Caroline's actually very interested in both. But I think that adds a dimension and enriches the experience tremendously. Maura Fredey: I'm a huge fan of Professor David Chu. I really admire his work, and what he has done for the college and that program over the years is tremendous, and I'm happy to call him a friend now. And as great as Holy Cross was in the early nineties, it's a million times better. And so I thank you for stepping up and helping to be a leader for that program. We're lucky to have you. Elina Kang: Thank you so much. I love the Women in Business Conference. It's so rewarding. It is a lot of work, but it's always rewarding to see so many alumni coming out, so many students coming out and just being so willing to connect with one another. Maura Fredey: Right. So you're already reaching out, and hopefully everyone's reaching back enthusiastically. Elina Kang: Yes. I hope that people- Elina Kang: We kind of had a stunt in the networking portion from the virtualness of it all, but I'm so excited to kind of jump back into things. And also Professor David Chu, I love his motto of, I think it's, "You can do anything with business," or, "You can start with business and go anywhere." Maura Fredey: Yeah. Major in anything, succeed in business, right? Elina Kang: Yeah. Yes. Maura Fredey: Yes. I love it. Elina Kang: And I love that. Maura Fredey: He's right. Elina Kang: Yeah. Because I was always concerned about kind of what I was majoring in, and I was like, "Oh, I have to do business to go into business." Or, "If I go into business, I can only stay in business." But that really changed my perspective on things. So it's really just amazing. Yeah. Maura Fredey: It's all good stuff. Elina Kang: Yes. And I think holy cross continues to get better. I know you were saying it was good in the nineties, it's better now. And I know it's just going to continue to get better and better with just so much advancement and just people, the community growing. So I love that. Maura Fredey: Exactly. I agree. Elina Kang: Okay. So before we end, I'd love to end with just a couple of speed round questions just to lighten things up and just to kind of have a fun little ending to our amazing and inspirational conversation. So the first question is, what was your favorite dorm? Maura Fredey: Oh, for sure, Mulledy, which is now Brooks. I lived there for two years. It was so much fun. There's like 20-something classmates of mine and Gene that I 100% consider siblings. We go out. We have a few of them to our home in Martha's Vineyard. Their kids are friends with our kids. I love them to death, and that all started in Mulledy, which is- Elina Kang: ...That's amazing. You lived there for two years, you said? Maura Fredey: I did. Yeah. Second year by choice, because we didn't want to get split up. Elina Kang: Oh, wow. That's great. Yeah. I don't think they offer it as a second-year dorm anymore, but it's a very nice dorm building. I didn't live in Mulledy, or Brooks now, but I didn't live in Brooks. I lived in Clark. But I went to Mulledy, or Brooks, Mulledy then, Brooks now, at the time. So yeah, I went... Maura Fredey: That's an easy answer for sure. Elina Kang: And then your favorite class. I'm not sure if you remember, but- Maura Fredey: Oh my goodness. That would be really hard to answer, but I would have to say any of the sociology classes I took with Dean Swigert, but also Professor Ed Thompson. They were just fantastic. I couldn't really pick specific sociology classes. Just anything taught by them. They were just fantastic. And Vicki Swigert was also our class dean, so that was awesome as well. Elina Kang: Yes. I really want to take a sociology class if I can before I leave Holy Cross, because I haven't really dived into the psychology, anthropology, sociology world, so I kind of, yeah, I want to. Maura Fredey: One of my classmates, Joanna Geraghty, is now running JetBlue, and she was a sociology major. So there you go. Elina Kang: Very nice. Maura Fredey: She did get a law degree ... She was a lawyer as well, but she was a sociology major. There, again, there's another example of major in whatever you want, and take it anywhere you want. Elina Kang: Right. That name sounds really familiar. I think she may have come to Women in Business before, too. Maura Fredey: She did an awesome Zoom interview recently, in the past couple of months. Elina Kang: Nice. I'll have to check it out. Okay. Favorite place to eat on campus? Maura Fredey: Well, once again, back in the early nineties, there weren't a lot of choices. So I mean, it had to be Kimball. Honestly, it was like Kimball, Lower Kimball, and The Pizza Cellar. That was pretty much- Elina Kang: Oh really? Maura Fredey: Yeah. There was a little convenience store, on the third floor of Hogan I think, but we just didn't have the choices that you have today. Elina Kang: Oh, that's so funny. Maura Fredey: I would say it was Kimball, and my roommate Tara and I, we would go to Kimball, and we would sometimes stay there, and stay there, and stay there, and talk. And so it's probably just that. Just hanging out there. Not necessarily about the eating, but about being with people and laughing. The laughing, and the nonsense, and the silly conversations, that would be the memory, in that big, cavernous, the room of Kimball Hall. Elina Kang: It's still the same. My friends and I, we still did the same thing our first year. We would stay there for maybe two, three hours when we were supposed to go to the library. Maura Fredey: Easily. Well, that's just it. I would remember that my memory would be talking and laughing, and making up just silly, silly stuff, and looking at the clock and saying, "Well, we should probably ... I have that paper to write. I should probably be going to the library." Or you had in mind what you should be doing, but end up hanging out with your friends and talking. Elina Kang: It's the best. Maura Fredey: The best part. Yeah. Elina Kang: And then best restaurant in Worcester. I'm not sure if you went when you were a student, but- Maura Fredey: Yeah. I mean, the restaurants, we would go to restaurants really only if your parents were coming up, or if there was some kind of fancy event. There was an Italian place, I think it was called Arturo's. There was Culpepper's Bakery down the hill. Then there was a place ... Oh gosh. I'm not going to remember the name. Going toward Auburn, under the bridge. It was a pub that ... Honestly, compared to today, what I even see on Instagram for the food, there's this cupcake place apparently that I'm going to try. There's so many more options now. Elina Kang: Yes. Maura Fredey: Which I hope to soon learn all about when I'm now back in Worcester a lot, with visiting Caroline, or coming to take her out, maybe. But yeah, I think the options have broadened, and broadened immensely since my day. Elina Kang: Yes. They've done Shrewsbury Street up really nice. Maura Fredey: I hear. Yeah. Elina Kang: There's restaurants all along that street, and I think because of this past year, the presence of going to restaurants was bigger. So we went to restaurants a lot more this year, because it was harder to get on campus, and also the way that they did the food was takeout, so it didn't have that same feel. So once things started opening up again, and it was a little safer to go out, when we would meet up, it was more likely for us to go to a restaurant. Maura Fredey: Sure. Elina Kang: Yeah. Maura Fredey: We'll have to get your top 10 list. Elina Kang: Yes. Yes. Let me know. I do have a few favorites that we typically go to. I still need to do some more exploring too, because I like to stick to what I like, but I definitely need to explore more. Maura Fredey: Excellent. Elina Kang: Yes. Okay. Just two more questions. Maura, what's next for your business, Carole Kitchen & Bath Design? Maura Fredey: So the next chapter for Carole Kitchen & Bath is one that I'm always thrilled and grateful, and frankly, really proud to talk about, because it's been a wonderful next chapter and a way to elevate Carole's to the next level, bring it to the next level, and also has a really amazing and cool Holy Cross piece to it. So as you know, we purchased the business in the early 2000s, and a few years ago, Gene and I started to think hard and strategize about our vision for the company, and for us, for our personal lives. Gene just turned 50, and I am in my 50th year. I turned 49 in July. So we were really starting to think about, "Okay, what's our vision?" We've been in this for quite a number of years. It has surpassed our expectations. We're so blessed. But we said, "Okay, what's next? And what do we want for our lives and for the company, the next chapter?" Maura Fredey: So interestingly, Gene, earlier in his career, had worked for a good friend of his, a class of '93 alum, Patrick Sansonetti. We call him P.J. All his friends call him P.J. He had been involved in a couple of startups, and running and managing small businesses, mostly in the high tech field. And anyhow, Gene worked for Patrick in the capacity of a financial manager and controller, sort of CFO role for one of those businesses earlier in our lives and in our careers, and that was a great experience. They worked really well together. We had always kind of joked, "Boy, Patrick would be great at Carole's." He just is really talented with people. He's a good logistics person. He's a great leader. And we share common values, and there's a tremendous amount of trust and comfort in our friendship with him. He's like a brother to us. Maura Fredey: So long story short, the stars kind of aligned. And when Patrick was at a place in his career, he wanted to make a big change and pivot, and Gene and I were thinking, "We'd like more flexibility in our lives," we decided that it was a good opportunity to bring Patrick on as a partner. So he is now co-owner of Carole's. And as many high hopes we had for how it might go is, it has surpassed it in so many ways. It's going smashingly well. Elina Kang: Great. Maura Fredey: He is now the operational owner. We share ownership of the company, but Patrick is the guy you're going to get as the owner with boots on the ground, and Gene and I have more flexibility, on the one hand, to stay really involved in the company, but to pursue with our time and interest, other things on a day-to-day basis, with that trust in Patrick running the show at the showroom. Maura Fredey: One of the things I'm most grateful for is the flexibility I have now to care for my parents, who are both battling significant health issues. My mom has Parkinson's, in the later stages of Parkinson's disease. And my dad, for the past couple years, has been fighting metastatic melanoma. So I am sort of their wing woman, so to speak. And also Gene's mom, Gene is a single child, so Gene's mom has some health issues too, so it's allowed us the flexibility to help them and to do what we need to do as children of aging parents. And also to pursue some substantial volunteer commitments in our community, on boards, and also a little bit of real estate development. But again, to know that we can still be stewards of Carole's, and the brand, and that Patrick shares our values and our mission and our investment in the company. Maura Fredey: So it's just another way that Holy Cross has provided the foundation, and the trust in shared values, and education. And another kind of fun story of a math major, a sociology major, and a physics major, in our fifties now, the next decade for us, just sort of taking this business story to the next level. So I'm really happy to be able to tell that part of the story. Elina Kang: That's great. I'm sorry to hear about your parents, but I'm so glad that you're able to really depend on another Holy Cross alum, and I feel like that contributes a lot- Maura Fredey: It is absolutely- Elina Kang: ... to our conversation. Maura Fredey: ... it is a gift, and I will say, coming up on this milestone of turning 50 in the coming year, and Gene just turning 50, and really understanding as much financial success you can have in business, and we've been so blessed in that way to have such a successful company, at the end of the day, that the success that we've seen through our business and that endeavor, what I'm most grateful for is, when you have that success, it allows you flexibility. It gives you time, and the tools that I've learned from business and negotiating, and advocating and all of that, I can't even put into words how much that's helped me navigating the health care system with my parents. You need all of those skills in ways that I never predicted. But at the end of the day, the success that we've seen through business has allowed me now, in this part of my life, the comfort and the tools and the ability to pivot and have time and the tools to advocate for the people who are so important to me in my life. Elina Kang: Right. Absolutely. Awesome. Well, I know we talked about this basically the entire time, but the best part about being a Holy Cross alum, if you could pin it down to one, two things. Maura Fredey: Well, I guess I have to say, I found my spouse there, right? It would be bad if I didn't say that, but it is the friendships and the relationships. It is just so grounding and sustaining in every way. I just love our friends to death. They are so important to us. Maura Fredey: Here's one little tidbit, that one of the friends I mentioned earlier on in the interview, Dave, he's just a great guy and good friend. And when Caroline was going through her college application process, she knew she wanted to apply to Holy Cross early. And of course you've got to do the interview. It's really important at Holy Cross. So I pawned it off on Dave. I said, "Dave, will you help her out?" Because who wants to practice with your mother? Nobody. So he was the best. I mean, he interviews people for his job, and the interview was on Zoom, of course, during COVID, and he was awesome. He did some role playing with her. So whether it's friends who do that with you, for your kids, they're just great role models, great friends, there through thick and thin. You can get a great academic education at hundreds of schools, right? No question, but you can't get all this other stuff everywhere, and Holy Cross does it like no nowhere else. So I guess that's probably a good place to end. It's building the relationships, and it's more than four years. It's a lifetime. Elina Kang: Yeah. For sure. Well, Maura, thank you so much for your time. It has been a pleasure to speak to you and get to know more about you. I was extremely honored when I was asked to host, but now I'm even more honored that I got to know you, just such an inspiring and genuine alum. Maura Fredey: Oh, you're so sweet, and I'm so inspired by you. And I'm excited, because I already have the Women in Business on my calendar for the fall. Elina Kang: Right. Maura Fredey: I'm so excited to hear more about what you're up to, and to have a new way to get back and stay engaged with Holy Cross. I'm thrilled and I'm really honored that you took the time out of your summer to talk with me. Elina Kang: Of course. Yes. Keep in touch definitely. If Caroline needs anything, let me know. And thank you so much again. Maura Fredey: Thank you. We'll talk soon, Elina. Bye-bye. Elina Kang: Bye. Maura Sweeney: That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be people for and with others. A special thanks to today's guest and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, then please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcast. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, "Now go forth and set the world on fire." Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

In this episode, Catherine Cote ‘18 is interviewed by Conor Hatton '22.  They speak about her time on campus, as well as the experience abroad that sparked her idea for Project Empathy, performance-based project in which people are paired up and tasked with telling each other's true, personal stories.  Thought-provoking and inspiring, Catherine's story highlights the wonderful impact that we can have on others when we combine our disparate interests and share them with the world. Interview originally recorded on May 1, 2021. Due to the ongoing effects of the pandemic, all interviews in season 2 are recorded remotely. --- Catherine: The Culture of Holy Cross is one of think about the other people's experience and also think about your own experience and reflect and how would that impact your worldview. Maura: Welcome to Mission Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. Maura: This episode features Catherine Cote from the class of 2018. Catherine can be described as the kind of person who makes the most out of every opportunity. She was drawn to Holy Cross because it provided the space for her to pursue her wide-ranging interests. She was a psychology major and Chinese and Education minor, who earned a business certificate through the Ciocca Center. Her interests also led her to participate in theater and study abroad in Australia. It was this fascinating mix of interests that when combined, inspired her to found her own company, Project Empathy, a performance-based project in which people are tasked with telling each other's true, personal stories. Maura: She is joined in conversation with Conor Hatton from the class of 2022. They speak about her time on campus, as well as the experience that sparked her idea for Project Empathy. Both having close ties to the Ciocca Center, they talk about the value of the business certificate program and how it's helped to prepare them for life after the hill.  Thought-provoking and inspiring, Catherine's story highlights the wonderful impact that we can have on others when we combine our disparate interests and share them with the world. Conor: Hi Catherine. I'm so excited to talk to you today. How are you doing? Catherine: Good, good, thanks Conor for having me. I'm really excited. Conor: So, I wanted to talk about first, obviously you graduated in 2018, so I wanted to start at the beginning and just find out why did you choose to come to Holy Cross. What's the story behind you coming to Holy Cross? Is it family? Was there anything else that might have led you to Holy Cross? Catherine: Yeah, wow. So I was a tour guide, so I definitely have this story locked and loaded from when I had to tell it to tour groups. I actually had this long checklist of items I was looking for in a college, which I'm sure a lot of people do. And it was things like can I study Chinese here, can I do theater without majoring in theater here? Do I have to declare a major coming in, or can I explore a little bit first? Catherine: I liked the small to medium size. So all my big, long checklist. And there were plenty of schools that checked all the boxes. And it was when I started getting accepted places, Holy Cross was actually my first college acceptance, which was great. But at the time I still wasn't sure if that was the place for me. I had seen a lot of different schools. It was actually when I came to campus for the accepted students day. It was like, "Okay, this checks all my boxes and stuff," but actually talking to the people who go here and being on campus and feeling this sense of almost like family, it sort of felt like. I said to my parents, "Hey, I think we need to swing by the bookstore on our way out, so I can get a sweatshirt." And my parents knew that that was like oh, if she gets a sweatshirt, that means she's committed. So yeah, definitely, that was how I ended up here. Conor: That's awesome. That's awesome. I mean, I'm sure it's a similar, not similar, I would say, but I would say for me, I was looking for a small school, as well, and I found that in Holy Cross. And I also found it within the Holy Cross community. I think Holy Cross also is able to open a lot of different opportunities for everyone. And obviously after doing some research about you, I know you went to study abroad in Melbourne, something that unfortunately I wasn't able to do because of the COVID pandemic. But I really would love for you to talk about your experience abroad and what it meant to you. Catherine: Yeah, oh wow. So going abroad, so I went abroad to the University of Melbourne, Melbourne, Australia the second semester of my junior year. So that was from January to June 2017. Yeah, it was such an amazing experience. Catherine: I will say, so I did study Chinese as my minor. And it was always sort of a consideration maybe I would go to China to study abroad, but I have a lot of food allergies, and I was like maybe I don't want to risk that in a language I'm not fluent in. So I started looking at English speaking options. And Australia, it felt significantly far away enough and a different culture that I would still get that whole really immersive experience. Catherine: Yeah, and I also just really enjoyed... I liked that I only knew one other Holy Cross student who was going. That was a plus to me. We had each other if we needed someone, but really it was like I chose the option to live in a single, and I explored the city by myself and made new friends from other countries. It was a really great experience. Conor: That's awesome, and I think one thing I also want to go off of that is after reading on the website, so you founded Project Empathy, which I would love for you to explain because I don't want to be the one to explain it. But I wanted you to explain what Project Empathy is for the audience that doesn't know, and how you came about that idea because I think it's so interesting and amazing, especially in today's climate, for sure. Catherine: Thank you. Yeah, so Project Empathy, it's a performance-based project in which people are paired up and tasked with telling each other's true, personal stories. So at this point in 2021, it's a business. I founded it as a business in October 2020, but I did create it when I was studying abroad in Melbourne, Australia in 2017. Catherine: So that actually, it really came out of, like I said, I was living in a single. I was really trying to meet a lot of new people at the time, and I was, meeting hundreds of people every week, I'd say. But it was a lot of surface conversation. And it was also a lot of talking about cultural differences and like, "Oh, we're so different. Isn't that funny?" And that's fun conversation to have and to figure out what's considered so American, what's considered really Australian. And then also all these other different cultures who were also studying abroad in Australia. But one thing I was really missing was having these deep conversations with people. Catherine: And at the same time, I was also really wanted to be part of theater. Theater is a big part of my Holy Cross experience even though I didn't major in it. And I was like, yeah, I would really would like to be involved with some sort of performance, but at the same time I don't want to lock myself into a rehearsal schedule where I wouldn't have any time to travel. Catherine: And then simultaneously, as we know, that was when President Trump had just been inaugurated, which was causing a really big stir back in the United States, and I was sort of observing it from afar. It was kind of a weird vantage point. And people were really divided over social issues, political issues, and it sort of came to me one night. I was just sitting in my apartment, and I was like, you know what would be really cool if I combine all three of these things and created a space where people would be dedicated to listening to each other's experiences, views, opinions, and then they performed those views for an audience. Catherine: And it was sort of like the wheels got turning. Could I do that here? I don't know anyone here. Could I do that? And I ended up just reaching out to their, they have this office of student generated art. And I reached out and explained my situation. I'm a study abroad student, could I do this here. And they were like, "Yeah, just send an email. See what happens." Catherine: So I got to send out an email to their list, and I ended up getting, I think I got 16 responses. I asked for people who had a story to tell. So, I did get, people, when they responded that they had stories, they did. And I ended up meeting with them each over coffee. So it was an informal setting, and I asked them, "Okay, what story did you prepare to talk to me about today?" And the range of stories that people tell when you just give them that general prompt is amazing. Catherine: Mostly the stories that people told were something that they had to overcome or a struggle in their life that now they can look back on. Sometimes it was struggles that they were currently going through even. And actually they weren't even all about struggle, but it was all about identify, figuring out who you are, stories like that. Catherine: So what happened after those interviews was that I picked six people. I didn't think I could handle more at the time. I picked six people from that group whose stories were very, very different from each other. And I paired them up with people who I thought it would be a challenge for them to try to understand. And yeah, it ended up being better than I could have hoped. It was sort of an experimental idea at the time. And these six people just, they showed up. Catherine: We had six rehearsals, and during those rehearsals, we did empathy exercises that I cobbled together from the internet and my own imagination. And then we just did a lot of sharing and conversation, just deep conversations to understand each other. And then finally we ended up performing at this thing called PLOM, potluck open mic night. And it was again, super informal. There were just a lot of couches around. Everybody shows up with food. Catherine: So we ended up just saying, "Can we perform our stories at this open mic night?" And the organizer's said, "Yep, of course." And so again, it was really informal, but it was the perfect venue because people were open to hearing what these people had to say. Catherine: And yeah, one of the cool things about that venue too was that the organizers had scattered around these pieces of paper for people to just jot down how they were feeling about the performances. And those actually ended up being some of the first testimonials, which I'm sure you might have seen on the website, just anonymous people saying like, "This makes me feel like I want to have a relationship with my Dad again. Thank you." Or someone said, "The story about the pregnancy made me cry." It's like wow, all right, this is affecting the audience members in addition to the cast members. Catherine: So that's the origin story. And I could keep going, but maybe I'll pause. Conor: No, no that's great. And to be honest, you get a background of that from your website, but going in depth is truly amazing. I had no idea that it grew to that scale so quickly. Obviously I know you founded it as a company in October, so I just wanted to see what do you hope to build that into just in the future? Catherine: Yeah, so actually I'll fill in the gaps a little bit too. In between that first performance and founding it into a business, I did bring it back to Holy Cross and we performed it. I directed it, the cast performed it in 2018, again in 2019 after I had graduated. They sadly had to cancel 2020 for obvious reasons. And tomorrow they're actually performing it again. So yeah, it's really, really a nice feeling to have this all come full circle. Catherine: So I did actually end up thinking when it was being done again and again at Holy Cross, where the cast members were saying, "I would like to direct this now." I was like wow, I love that this is a tradition at Holy Cross where the cast members can continue the tradition, but this is really an affective way to scale it because then only people who have been in it are expressing interest in directing it. Catherine: And at the time that felt appropriate because they had been through it. They knew what it felt like. They knew the whole process in and out. But actually it was during the pandemic I think when I had a lot of time to think. I started thinking about what if I could create a kit, an instructional kit, for how to direct this. And then that way you wouldn't have had to be in it to direct it. Catherine: And also, I love directing it, but I can't direct them all. So yeah, I ended up making this instructional kit. I call it the performance package. And it has a hard copy of a director's guide. It just contains everything that I've learned about directing, and I've also brought in words from other directors from Holy Cross and the University of Melbourne too. I also have these back pocket cards that have comments and questions for just moving along deep conversations. And then also this big digital file of every digital item you might need to put this on at your school, your university, your theater. Catherine: And yeah, so the thought with that is that if I can sell this package to other schools, theaters, any community group that wants to do it, that I could... Yeah, it just increases it's scale and by extension, increase the impact that it can have. Conor: That's amazing. And I guess a follow-up question to that, do you find that the people that are participating in the theater, are they mostly people that are, I guess, actors, or do you find regular people that come in and just want to perform and talk about their own struggles or anything about themselves. Is it mostly one niche group, or do you find a variety of different people coming in? Catherine: I'll say it started out being just theater people because that was who I had access to through that student theater group, but it's been growing, which I'm really happy about. It's been growing into people who have no acting experience. I would like to see it continue to grow that way because this isn't really about acting. In fact, for some of the... So when I directed it in 2018, some of the students were like, "I feel really nervous. I've never given a performance before. Can I use index cards?" I'm like, "Yes, of course." That's not going to... I don't expect you to be a professional actor to tell someone else's story like that. Conor: Right. That's great, that's great. And I think opening it up is great. I saw in the email this week, that... It was so funny that our interview was today and then tomorrow is Project Empathy, and I got an email about it this week, and I saw it, and it just reminded me of today. Very funny. Conor: So I want to say and another question just tying it back to Holy Cross, so do you find that you took any lessons from Holy Cross and applied it to Project Empathy at all? Or is there any experiences at Holy Cross, obviously I know through Melbourne, but at Holy Cross that inspired Project Empathy or for Project Empathy to grow? Catherine: Yeah, nothing that I can directly tie, but I definitely feel like being at Holy Cross in general. Everyone's steeped in this culture of what can I do for other people and reaching outwards into communities. That's definitely reflected in Project Empathy. And I'll also say that the cura personalis thing, I've always loved that, the care of the whole person. And even just thinking about some of the classes that I took, I never would have taken if I didn't need to. Catherine: So, for instance, there was a comparative religions and worldview class I took, Professor Schmalz. Conor: Yeah, he's still at Holy Cross. Catherine: It was so great. And I loved it because it was like here are tons of different worldviews. Let's study them all. And I took a class called Cognition Across Cultures with Professor Anggoro in the Psych department. And that was like, wow. I loved thinking about the way other people think. So yeah, it wasn't necessarily a direct tie where someone said something and it inspired it, but it was very much the culture of Holy Cross is one of think about the other people's experience and also think about your own experience and reflect and how would that impact your worldview. Yeah, definitely. Conor: Absolutely. So I want to transfer now to more into your major and your professional life in marketing, so I just wanted to talk about how... So obviously you were a psychology major, Mandarin minor, education minor, so you were double minor. You also had the business certificate. So I guess I wanted to say, what class at Holy Cross made the biggest impact on you, and how has it helped you in your professional life today marketing? It's kind of a big question, but just in general. I don't want to put you on the spot too much. Just if you had some classes that had a big impact on you. Catherine: Yeah, if I can pick a handful. I don't think I can pick just one. Conor: Yeah, no that's completely understandable. Catherine: Yeah, so I majored in psychology, minored in education and Chinese, and then I had this business certificate on the side, which is so funny that that was a side thing because it was so impactful for my career. But I really always joke with people that yeah, these are all the things I studied, but they're really not discrete. Really the whole common thread here is I just like people and studying connection. Catherine: And so I feel like the classes that had the most impact on me were classes that connected those studies together if that makes sense. Like those two that I just mentioned, Comparative Religions, that wasn't even for a major or minor for me, but it had an impact. And then that Cognition Across Cultures was huge. Catherine: And actually, I'll also mention a class I didn't expect to have a lasting impact on me was Research Methods for Psychology. It's a required course for the major, and statistics. Yeah, I'll say statistics and Research Methods because those were both required courses for the Psych major. They definitely weren't my favorite at the time. I wouldn't necessarily consider myself a "math person." But I've used the statistics concepts and the research methods concepts in business, which that was not something that we expected to necessarily use them for. Catherine: And then I'll also say with the business certificate, the parts of that that I enjoyed the most were the workshops where we were in person and doing hands on projects. Like getting to hear from alumni in person. I loved that so much. But then the part that I didn't expect to impact me that much was the Excel course. I was like, "Oh yeah, this is required." And I use it all the time. Pivot tables and the kind of thing that I was not necessarily that excited to learn about. It's now I use it all the time. Conor: Yeah, I would say the same thing for me honestly. I took that my sophomore year, I believe, but for every job that I've had to work since then, I've had to use Excel, and now I'm like, well, I know how to use it. I did some in high school, but the certificate class that I took was great. Conor: So what challenges at all did you find taking your liberal arts education obviously like we talked about, you took a variety of different classes that peaked your interest, and that's the beauty of a liberal arts education. But what challenges did you find if any in regards to having a liberal arts education and entering the professional workforce? Did you find any challenges? And what helped you succeed in the business world with the liberal arts education? Catherine: Ooh, yeah, I feel like that's the big Holy Cross question. Conor: It is. Catherine: I'll just say I've been lucky that both of the places, or I guess all three of the places that became my internships, that I've been employed at, really valued the liberal arts education. There are some places that might want you to have had a business major or something. But I interned at a company called Jebbit when I was a junior, sophomore and junior. And they loved the different perspective I brought. They were a really small staged start up at that point, so they were like, "We want new ideas. We want new perspectives," which I thought was amazing. Catherine: And then my first job out of college, which actually shout out to the Center for Career Development that it was from my career... Crusader Connections post. I will say that I had to pitch myself to them. I had to say, "Here's my skill set. This is what I bring to the table," and a lot of that was I've had to do a lot of research of texts and research synthesis of different texts. I'm extremely organized because of this. I'm used to juggling multiple things. I don't have a one-track mind. Catherine: And I definitely pitched that I can bring new perspectives to the table thing too. And again, they valued that. And my current employer, I'll even say, I think put an emphasis on actually I would really like it if you brought different perspectives to the table. Actually, I work at Harvard Business School right now, Harvard Business School online. And my current marketing team, the organic team. I majored in psychology. One of my colleagues, I think was a video production major. Another was a visual art major. And my manager was a journalism major. Catherine: So I take pride in that in how we all have our different backgrounds, but we've built these skill sets in marketing, and we're able to come together, sort of like in a perfect storm. Conor: Yeah, that's amazing. And you speaking about skill sets, that was leading me to my next question. What skill sets do you feel like you take from that liberal arts education? Obviously in the small class setting, you're not really exposed to speaking in front of large groups, but at Holy Cross, one thing that I've spoken about with my friends and my family is one of the best things is public speaking. Holy Cross, a lot of classes make you speak in front of a lot of people. So I guess my next question is how did that skill set that you took from a liberal arts education apply to your job in marketing? Catherine: Yeah, definitely the public speaking part. Being able to give presentations, yeah. And I definitely, I don't want to sound pompous and all, but I definitely found that Holy Cross prepares you very well to go into the real world, the "real world" because you just have to practice it all the time. So definitely public speaking, research skills, for sure. Catherine: Actually, so in that first job, I specialized in search engine optimization in my first job out of college, which ended up being something that I didn't want to pursue as my career. But while I was there, I learned it a ton. And one of the things that I did while I was there was I had to do a lot of research about what would this specific audience type want to search for on Google. For instance, one of the audience types might have been certified personal accountants. And I'm not a certified personal accountant. I don't know any, and so I definitely feel like at Holy Cross, you had to put yourself in the other person's shoes and just dig into the research to try and figure out as much as possible. And then distill it into something meaningful, which that's just one example of having to search for things that certified personal accountants might be interested in. Catherine: But I also used that, actually it's even more applicable in my current job because I am a content marketer now, so I am writing blog posts, eBooks, things like that for Harvard Business School online, and our topics are often things that I don't necessarily know about. For instance, I wrote one a couple quarters ago about how a manager can increase the profitability of their organization, and that's not something I just know off the top of my head. And so I had to do all this research online. I also really dug into our course material. We offer online courses, so I have access to those, so I dig into that material. And then I learn how a manager could increase profitability of their organization and then distill it into this 1000ish word piece that's easy to digest and understand. Catherine: And I do feel like at Holy Cross, it was always like how do you distill all of this information that we just talked about or read and researched into the final paper or the final presentation or something like that. Conor: Yeah, I think that's the beauty of the Holy Cross education, for sure. I've seen that myself. Obviously I haven't entered the "real world" yet or the business world yet, but I know that it's really helping me pursue a professional career. And I think that goes into my, I'm also pursuing a business fundamentals certificate through the Ciocca Center, so it's something that's obviously we talked about a little bit different from when you experienced it, but would love to know what your favorite aspects of the business certificate program were if you remember. That was awhile ago, obviously. But what did you take from your experience of pursuing the certificate? Yeah, if you could just expand upon that. Catherine: Yeah, I'll start with my favorite part and then talk about what I got from it because I got so many things from it. But I think, maybe I'll pick two. I'll pick two. One was the Fullbridge Competitive Edge program. Have you done that? Conor: I did do Fullbridge, yeah. It was a great experience. So I did that my sophomore year, yeah, going into sophomore year, so summer before going into sophomore year. Catherine: Okay, and I think I did mine the summer after sophomore year? I stayed on campus for it. Conor: Okay, you did the May. Yeah. Catherine: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I loved that. And you know the course of the program and how it goes, but a week-long 9-5 or 8-5 I think it was program every day. And my team, my Fullbridge team, I think that we were a success story in terms of how they wanted to pair up people who were very different from each other to work on the project, and we were. Our strengths and weaknesses were all different, and because of that, we worked very well together, and there was also some clashing that happened. Catherine: My biggest strength that stood out among my group was in the presentations. I really enjoy storytelling presenting, so I got to open it up. And I remember we did Tesla, and my opening line I was like, "Imagine the future," and diving into Tesla. And one of my team members, she was a math major and she was like, "I just want to present the graphs. I don't want to talk about anything else." We're like, "Okay, fair." And a history major who talked about the history of Tesla. And our other, who his interest was more in finance, so he really wanted to talk about the financial projections. Catherine: Yeah, so I really enjoyed Fullbridge, and even now just on social media, my team, we're just sort of following along with each other's lives and silently or not so silently cheering each other on. So yeah, definitely Fullbridge as well as the marketing boot camp too. I really enjoyed that as well. Conor: Yeah, I would say the same with my team members. We obviously saw each other on campus a little bit this semester, but in regards to the actual leaders of the program, the people working for Fullbridge, they still keep in touch with me, Carman, Franco, one of them. They still keep in touch, and I think that aspect of that program really was beneficial because it helped. It was my first experience in actually networking with people and understanding other people's professional careers. I think it inspired me to realize that hey, I don't have to go into a career path that I think I want to go into. You've just got to be open to new opportunities. Conor: So you talked about the marketing, it's now the marketing and communications workshop. Catherine: Oh. Conor: Yeah, so it's a little bit of a name change. But what did you say it was called back then? Catherine: Marketing Bootcamp. I don't even know if that was correct. Conor: No, no. So did that program itself help to inspire you to go into marketing? What was your inspiration behind going into that industry? Catherine: Yeah, so I did know before I took the bootcamp/workshop, I did know before that I was interested in it, but I wasn't quite sure how to get there, I guess. Like I said, I knew that I really enjoyed people and understanding the way people think. And my parents both worked in business, so I definitely had that oh, I know that this is something I can do. Catherine: Actually my Dad was a Psych major, and he ended up eventually becoming a Senior Vice President of Software Engineering, so I definitely had that vibe that I can do whatever want with a Psych major. And my Mom had, she had started her own ad agency. So I did have them as role models too. Catherine: So knowing that I wanted to work with people and just be thinking about the way people think all the time led me towards marketing. And then when I took the bootcamp or workshop, I got to hear from, I think it was Julie Halpin Anderson. Oh, and Brian Kelley, the CEO of Keurig Green Mountain, and we got to hear both of them speak and give advice to us. And it was like oh, wow, okay. These are Holy Cross alums, who are very successful in the marketing field. And the fact that they came back to give advice to some random Holy Cross students was like, this means a lot to them. You know? Conor: Yeah. I think that I see that all the time with the Holy Cross Alumni Network. I'm assuming this is probably one of your... Well, I don't know that was your first time experience at a Holy Cross Alumni Network, but how has the Holy Cross Alumni Network in general post-college, helped you in your professional career? Catherine: Oh yeah, in so many ways. I'll have to definitely talk about the Women in Business conference because I started attending that my sophomore year. I didn't know about it freshman year. My sophomore year I went to the first Women in Business conference, and it was this overwhelming feeling of I was supported. Literally sitting in the Hogan ballroom surrounded by all these powerful strong smart successful Holy Cross women, who were doing things in business. It was almost overwhelming. Catherine: So yeah, and actually some of my... Again, I talked about that silent or not so silent supporters on social media. So many of those people for me on LinkedIn are from the Women in Business conference, just people that I've met at these tables. Actually one woman that I met when I was a sophomore and I was still like, "I really don't know what I want to do, but these are the things I'm interested in." And she just talked to me about her career but didn't put pressure on me to figure it out then. She's just been saying congratulations on every single one of my job updates. I hope to eventually see her again in person. We obviously were virtual this past year. That network is just unlike any other. Conor: Yeah, and kind of going off that, to the Holy Cross student that might be listening on this podcast, when do you believe a Holy Cross student should start networking? What type of things do you like being asked by Holy Cross students if you've been asked by any? I don't know if you've interacted with any of the current student body, but yeah, just put yourself in the shoes, what do you feel like you should ask? Catherine: Well in terms of when you should start, just whenever you can. I'm not going to say you should've started already. That's not helpful. Whenever you want to make connections is the right time. I feel like with most Holy Cross alumni, they're just waiting to be reached out to. Especially if anyone who's listening wants to reach out to me, please do. I would love to talk to you. Catherine: In terms of things that I would want to be asked, I guess I don't even know. I guess I would just like to have a relationship with these people. Know them as people and then be supportive whenever necessary. Yeah, and I think that if you are a current student who's maybe hesitant to reach out to someone, just say even something as simple as, "Hi, I'm a current Holy Cross student, and I saw your LinkedIn profile or I heard that you're in this industry through the Center for Career Development or something like that. Do you have 15 minutes, I can pick your brain?" And most of them will say yes if they have time. Conor: Yeah, and I completely agree. I think every single Holy Cross alumni that has came back to help either the business program or an event on campus or even just seeing people at a football game, alumni they meet at the football game, I've had that happen. It's just every single person that I've come to loves Holy Cross and also understands, everyone's understanding of each other and understands the experiences that they're going through. Because they're all very similar. Everyone that went to Holy Cross back in the day knows the small schools feel that we feel now and the tight-knit community that is still there. We might have lost it for a year because of the pandemic, but I'm excited to come back to it, and I hope that you come back to campus as well. Catherine: Absolutely. Conor: I want to talk about in regards to the business program in general, how do you believe that... Like for those in the business program now at Holy Cross, what steps should they take to make sure that they get ahead in today's competitive business world? Whether it's the path that you took or maybe something that you wish you did when you were at Holy Cross? Just anything of that nature. Catherine: I'll say that just by being in the business program, you're already a step ahead. Because I would say that even students who don't do the business program, a Holy Cross education still really sets you up well for your future career. But being in the business program can give you concrete skills. So already ahead there. But one thing I think that you already mentioned is just to really lean on that network and leverage it. And by being in the business program, you just sort of have more of a natural tie to some people who maybe volunteer to come back and speak, or you just have an opening line with them, like I'm part of the business program at Holy Cross. I would like to talk to you about this. Catherine: Actually one thing I wanted to mention too is I'm part of the Holy Cross Startup Slack channel. And I know it's typically pretty quiet, but whenever someone posts, it's like swarm of support jumping down the message. And I didn't even know if it would get me any help, but I did post something awhile back being has anyone here filed a U.S. trademark before? It's a very complicated process, but I had never tried, and I didn't know if I needed a lawyer, so I posted in the group just to see if people said something. And this one alum, who I'd never met, had never heard of, he posted and he was like, "Actually, I'm a lawyer. Here's my advice." Non-legal advice, personal advice. "And if you have any questions, here's my email." Catherine: Being able to leverage the network in that way is huge. You just have this one-off question, ask it, someone will come help. And I also really want to be able to do that back flipped. I also want to be that person for other people. Did that answer your question? Conor: Oh yeah, absolutely. No, 100%, and that's something that we've had to utilize more than ever is Holy Cross is now have to use these online platforms because you can't engage with alumni in person. And that's something that I know the Ciocca Center has been transferring a lot of other different career development, everyone's switching to the remote format. And I guess going back to your professional life, how has that impacted Project Empathy in regards to obviously I know that Sunday, May 2nd, tomorrow, will be your next performance at Holy Cross, so how has that been adjusted accordingly? Catherine: Yeah, the performance that's tomorrow, Sunday, May 2nd, it is on Zoom. And I know that the current production team, there are two directors, a stage manager, and a producer, who are all seniors. And then they have a cast of 10 Holy Cross students. They have not been able to meet in person. I mean, as I'm sure you are aware, so they've been having all their rehearsals over Zoom. And then they actually, I think that they rented equipment from the theater department to be able to film in their own dorms, and then the stage manager edited them all together, so that they'll be presented as though you're watching one straight performance. Catherine: So really, just innovative solutions, I feel like. It, of course, it still stinks. You wish that this could all be in person, but I feel like people's spirits are still there, so the spirit of the project is still the same. It's just people had to jump around a little bit, make it work. Catherine: I'm hopeful that the next group that does Project Empathy. I haven't actually announced it yet, but they're hoping to do things on an outdoor stage, so it will still be COVID safe, but they might still be able to be in person. But again, it's just bending things, making it work, being innovative. Conor: Of course, I'm sure, no doubt that it will go successfully. I think that Holy Cross students are now experts at using Zoom, so I that- Catherine: Oh gosh, yeah. Conor: I think that will go well. So I have a couple just fun questions about Holy Cross. So what is your favorite memory on Mount St. James from Holy Cross in general? Whether that can be fun or academic or anything, just what is your favorite memory at Holy Cross? Catherine: My gosh, there are so many. Let me see, I, gosh. There are so many. I think that one that I'll pull out is I have always done the musicals with Alternate College Theater. And I think that when I was a senior, we did Legally Blonde, and we would always do this really intense warm up. It was a workout, just before every rehearsal to get us in the physical shape to perform. And we actually continued to do that warm up together after the show had ended because of the familial type of bond that we had. Yeah, so that's one. I just feel like any other memories that I have of Holy Cross that are with that familial bond, those are the things that stick. Conor: Okay, yeah. And I also wanted to ask, I don't know if you've been to Holy Cross lately, but the new arts center is just about... I don't want to speak for Holy Cross, but it looks like it's just about to be finished. The outside, at least. Catherine: Oh my gosh. Conor: And it's absolutely huge. I don't know, have you seen any pictures of it? Catherine: No, so I actually... It's so funny because we almost we treat it, at least people in my graduating class almost treat it as though it's a mirage because as freshmen, they told us, "Oh yeah, it'll probably be done by the time you're sophomores." And we're like, "We can't wait to perform in it." And then it kept getting pushed back, pushed back, postponed. And now that it's actually almost done, it's like I won't believe it until I see it. Conor: That's very... I would be, when we left for campus, the construction was just starting. But now it's this huge building. It's right next to the Hogan Campus Center when you're going up towards Hart. And it's on the left side. They took out the parking lot and put the building in. It's amazing, and they also have a deck on top, which it looks like it's being built in. It's supposed to be a deck that you can overlook the entire campus, which is something that is honestly, you don't really get that nice of a spot, you get it at Fenway, I guess, when you're trying to look over Kimball, but there's not a really great spot with a great view at Holy Cross. And I think that will be the new spot. Catherine: Wow. Conor: Yeah. Catherine: As soon as it's safe, I will be back to see it. Conor: Absolutely. Absolutely. And in the future, maybe Project Empathy will be able to perform there, and it will be a great success. Great success. Catherine: That would be amazing, yeah. Conor: So, I guess with the final-ish question, excuse me, but if you could go back in the shoes of a Holy Cross student now, what would you tell yourself? What advice would you give, especially, I know things have changed obviously. The world's climate has changed since you've graduated and a lot of different things, Holy Cross has changed. There's a new President now, different things, but in general, if you could go back in the shoes of a Holy Cross student, what would you tell yourself? Catherine: Gosh, I would tell myself soak it all in, which I know is super predictable of me to say, but really soak it all in. Trust your gut. It's okay to say no to certain things if your heart's not in it. I would say don't be so worried about ending up in the right job right after college. That was one of the things I was very worried about, and it all ended up fine. I would say your Holy Cross community is for life. So the friendships that you're building, but then also the relationships with your professors, and then also this unspoken relationship with all alumni, that's a for life thing. And so I feel like take comfort in that. Conor: Absolutely, absolutely. Well, I thank you so much for taking the time to join us. I had a great conversation. This was both our first time doing this, but I think it went well. I had a great conversation, learned a lot. And I'm really looking forward to tomorrow. I think it will go great. I'm going to try to attend, and excited to see you hopefully at Holy Cross in the future. Catherine: Yeah, definitely. Thank you so much, Conor, this was really, really nice, and yeah, again, I'm just so honored that you even invited me here. And yeah, thank you so much. Maura : That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the Mission to be people for and with others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross, who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know, would like to be featured on this podcast, then please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of St. Ignatius of Loyola, now go forth and set the world on fire. Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

Mark Cronin '80 and his son John Cronin join Maura Sweeney '07 to speak about how they came to found John's Crazy Socks. A serial entrepreneur, Mark passed along this passion to John.  In the spirit of Holy Cross, theirs is a company created to do good.  Through John's Crazy Socks they are living their mission to “spread happiness,” while also serving as advocates for workplace equality and voices for people with differing abilities. Interview originally recorded on March 17, 2021. Due to the ongoing effects of the pandemic, all interviews in season 2 are recorded remotely. --- Mark : It's the nature of the social enterprise, you've got to have a mission. You can't be, we just want to make money. It's got to be something larger than yourself, an impact you want to have on the world. And when you're driven by that, it's so motivating. All the petty stuff falls away. And that's how you can go and connect with people. We get asked, what's the key ingredient? What skill? A lot if it is just belief. If we have a mission to spread happiness, just believe. Maura : Welcome to Mission-Driven where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. Maura : In this episode, I speak with Mark Cronin from the class of 1980 and his son, John Cronin. Mark and John are co-founders of John's Crazy Socks. A company whose mission is to spread happiness, where over half of the employees have a differing ability. An entrepreneur at heart, Mark has been creating opportunities and organizations ever since his days at Holy Cross. From creating The Lunchbox Theater as a student, to running political campaigns, to founding a software company, his career path shows what can be done when you pursue an idea. Maura : Every step of the way he's been driven by mission. And every step of the way has prepared him for his role at John's Crazy Socks. Our conversation focuses a lot on the incredible work that Mark and John are doing through John's Crazy Socks, to raise awareness about people with differing abilities. They live the motto, to whom much has been given, much is expected, and they do it well. We are lucky to have people like Mark and John working hard to improve the lives of millions of others, because it's not just the right thing to do, it's also good for business. Maura : Mark and John, it is really wonderful to be here with you today. How are you today? Mark : Pretty good, right? John : Pretty good dad. Mark : Life remains interesting. Maura, thank you very much for having us on. Maura : It is my pleasure. It is my pleasure. I have been really looking forward to talking to you about Mark, about your career journey and John, about how you came to help co-found John's Crazy Socks, and the incredible work that you're doing together to really make a difference for people with differing abilities out in the world. Before we get to that, and before we get to John's Crazy Socks, because I could go down a rabbit hole there. First, I'd love to know more about you and your family. I know that you're both New Yorkers. Have you always lived in New York? Mark : So, we live in a town called Huntington on Long Island. I tell the story about that with John. He sometimes laughs at me about this. So, I grew up here on Long Island in part of Huntington, Huntington Station, and when I was 19, I set out for the world. I was leaving and I'm never coming back to Long Island. So in 1997, by that point we had three kids. Our eldest was in first grade and we had moved several times. And if you move two blocks with a little kid, their world turns upside. So we said, we'll buy a house and we'll stay in one place until you get out of college. And we wound up buying a house in Huntington Bay in Huntington, not out of college, out of high school. We said, we'll stay here. And there were a few times where boy, all I wanted to do was travel and move. Mark : There was one point I had this interesting opportunity in Hong Kong, and I sat the family down and I gave them a pitch and they all listened and they nodded and they said, "Dad, that sounds great. And why don't you send us a postcard when you get there, because we're not going." But then, so our two elders, they get up and leave and John, he got an extra three years of high school, but now he's in his final year of high school and I'm thinking, and my wife, Carol is also a Holy Cross grad. We're thinking we can move. We can relocate. Mark : Even after starting this business, we thought you could run an online business from the moon. We could go anywhere. Well, the good news is the business took off faster than we expected. So, we started with a three-year lease and now we have a bunch of employees, and I am going to die on Long Island. I'm not getting away. Maura : No. Well, and I can tell too, just from what I've seen in just the different media footage and the stories about the way you run John's Crazy Socks, is it's also a community organization. Mark : We think about community a lot, we think about the community here. I'm always wary of businesses that say, we're like a family. I don't know about that. But we're building a community there. We think about the community that we're building around here, our customers and supporters. But we also think about the local community and you've got to be good citizens. You got to be engaged in their community and giving back and involved. So, there is a lot of things we do, and that's important to us. Maura : Well, thinking about community and thinking about Holy Cross, because you're an alum from the class of 1980, I know community is a huge part of someone's time at Holy Cross. I'd love to hear about your days on the Hill and what brought you to Holy Cross from Long Island. Mark : So, a different day and age. Okay. I'm getting out of high school in 1976 and I really knew nothing. I didn't really know anything about looking at schools. At a college fair, I got a booklet that seemed interesting. I applied to three schools. I really applied to two. I applied to Holy Cross and Boston College. A third school came in and started recruiting me for football but by that point, I wasn't thinking of playing football. I got in both Holy Cross and Boston College, and was going back and forth. I didn't really know how to choose. So, Boston College had me up for a weekend with a group of students and they greeted us saying, we think you want the leaders of the class of 1980. Mark : And as soon as I heard that, I was like, well, I don't want to come here. If you think I'm one of your leaders, you're in trouble. So, I wound up at Holy Cross and there were a few points. Freshman year, where I was like, I don't know if this is really the right place. I thought of leaving, but once I made the commitment to stay, well, then you're all in. And like most things, the more you put in, the more you get out. And I was thinking, I just sent a package of socks to a guy named Father Carlson, who was my freshmen advisor. And I took him for a survey of Greek lit, but I was particularly thinking of one moment, just a small moment that altered the course of my life. Mark : It was sophomore year, second semester, sophomore year. And he called me in his office. I was trying to think, how did he get me? There was no email, there was no text. But he had me come into his office and he sat me down, and he was the head of the honors program. And he gave me a picture he said, "You should really apply for this." I was like, "Me. Nah." That's not how I thought of myself. I could talk. I was a pretty serious student, but I did a lot of other things too. I didn't do a lot of sleeping. Mark : I walked out of there and thought, oh. I still, I'm not very... I'm kind of... Not counting on it... To inviting you to an honors program. I was really not very smart because I'm thinking, well, I still don't have a chance. Not even thinking well, the head of the program asked me to do this. So I apply and got in the program. And now I spent my junior year at Trinity College in Ireland. Mark : But among the other little things, you got to take the seminars and it was so wonderful. So I took a seminar in non-Euclidean geometry with a guy named, I think his first name was Ted. Ted Cecil, math professor. It was just wonderful. Blew my mind of opening up the world and different ways of thinking. And I could tell the story a little bit, but on graduation, I wind up teaching math and religion. And first question was, did you study any math in college? Yes, I studied non-Euclidean geometry. Mark : And I got to spend a year working with Bob Cording, writing a thesis on a book-length poem by Galway Kinnell, called The Book of Nightmares. And I had met Galway because he was a visiting writing instructor, actually for the Worcester Consortium. So, I was able to take a poetry workshop with him when I was a sophomore. But to spend a year engaged in writing, I learned how to read, I learned how to write. It was so wonderful. Mark : So, just that experience and the confidence it gave me and helped me, it challenged me to think, you're really not that much of an idiot. But then jump ahead a couple of years, I'm bouncing around doing different things. I'm working for a Congressman in New York and I want to get into public policy, public affairs. He's advised me to go to law school. So I apply to some law schools, and I get something in the mail from the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard. And I read it and say, "This is what I should do." Mark : So, I apply there and I get in. Later, I served on the Admissions Committee at the Kennedy School and realize how the heck did I get in? And I know the crucial factor was, I was in the honors program and Holy Cross. So for some reason, Father Carlson took that time to call in this knucklehead and say, "You may want to do this." And in that way, it was just a conversation, but it had this impact on my life. And I'm 62 now and it's still blooming, and those are special moments. Maura : Well, and that's one of the things that I really enjoy is I get to have conversations with alums like you in this podcast, is to hear how many times individual people reaching out and knowing you as a person has a tremendous effect. And the fact that Holy Cross is small and allows people to get to know you and to see something in you that you didn't recognize in yourself at that moment. Mark : There were things you got to do. Some of this was day and age. So late seventies, there was so much freedom. My sophomore year, I realized that we were at this giant buffet table and it was all you could eat. You could get whatever you wanted. And so at the time, you would take four courses each semester, but you weren't limited to that. So I saw it as, well, naturally I'll take a fifth. I don't have to pay more. And then I would find out and sit in on other classes, then I would find out if you didn't see a class that you wanted, you could just make one up. Now I know Independent Studies, but that wasn't structured then, so sophomore year went to John Mayer, who was the chair of the English Department, and he taught myself and my two housemates a course on Bob Dylan, which was awesome. Maura : That's great. Mark : I remember mentioning it to my parents saying, "I'm taking a course on Dylan," and they were like, "What are you doing?" But it was awesome. Or senior year, my girlfriend, now my wife, we were college sweethearts. So she started on a course, which is not unusual at Holy Cross, of a bio pre-med and quickly wound up as an English major. But now, in senior year and she's got to make up some of her English credits. She's not seeing a lot, she can fill it up, but she needs one more course. We'll just find one. Mark : And I'm like, "Who are some of your favorite authors?" And she hits on Joseph Conrad. I said, "Great. We'll get a class on Conrad. You and I, we'll go do this." And she goes, "How are we going to do that?" "Don't worry." And so, Pat Bizzell in the English Department approached her and she said, "Sure, this would be great." So the two of us would read a book a week, and then we would meet with her, and how awesome is that to be able to have and go and do those things. There were a lot of things like that, but it's also, there were other things that were more extracurricular. Mark : So, sophomore year around Christmas, I read Tom Wolfe's Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test about Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters. And they would have what you would call today, a rave. And I'm reading this with the house band, The Warlocks, which changed their name to be the Grateful Dead. I'm reading this and I'm like, I would love to go to something like that. But what do I know? So then decided we'll have our own, and went off and did things, which now I look back like, wow, that was pretty good. I got a group of people together, today we could call a board. Everybody put money in, we sold tickets. We bought some things that we resold. I won't go into that even if the, what do they call it? The standards, the laws say that they can't arrest me anymore. And we had this three-day party with bands. It was just wonderful because you could go do that. Like again, different day and age. Mark : That year, I'm sleeping in Beaven, and every Wednesday night we had a cake party where we would charge money, and $1 would go to buy the cake for the next week, and 1$ would go towards this three-day party. So, I was learning to be an entrepreneur and then repeated it at a different level senior year. I came back from Ireland, wanted to do something and we created something called The Lunchbox Theater. During the lunch hour, we would put on plays and poetry readings, and concerts, and just had a blast doing this. And I'd run around and line people up and get people to agree to stage a play. What great fun. And we could go and do it. No one was going to stop you, and that it was encouraged and that was great. Maura : Well, and I can see now why you didn't sleep at all? Mark : No. Between that and work. I had a professor, Brendan Kenelly at Trinity College who would say, you go to university to find out what you don't know. And I didn't know. Eventually Father Carlson before, so I'm taking this Greek lit class freshman year, and now we come on to our first blue books, and I was in Carlin, which then was primarily a freshmen dorm. You could feel the stress level rising. And I'm like, well, I should be worried. I should do something. And that's when I realized I had no idea how to study. I had no idea how to take notes, no idea how to study. I didn't know really what to do. So I stayed up all night, re-read The Odyssey and The Iliad and I showed up with no sleep, but it's all fresh in my mind now. A lot of it, because I was so unsure of myself and insecurity that gets flipped sometimes as bravado. Mark : I remember it was a Bob Cording class sophomore year, and okay, different time and age, and I am ludicrous. It's a 10:30 or an 11 o'clock class and small class. I think everybody was a senior, I'm the only sophomore in the class. And I'm showing up in my bathrobe, sitting in the back of the class. And he turns, he hands out the first paper, and Bob was so diligent and detailed notes, but very demanding. Hands this out and he announces to the class, "I'm really disappointed and they're poor. And I'm telling you now, you're going to have to rewrite these." Because the highest grade, there were like two Cs and everybody else got a D. And I'm thinking, what the hell? People are slumping. He says, "But was one paper that just hit the mark and I'm going to read it to you." And he starts reading it. And all the people, I'm like several rows back from everybody, they're all looking at each other because they all know each other. Is that yours? Is that yours? Slowly they realize it's the freak in the back of the class. Mark : Again, it was somebody, Bob coming to me and saying... It's a lesson I had to keep learning. Don't be a fool. You can do things and now that becomes an obligation. You got to make something of that. Plus, there's friendships. I was texting last night with a buddy of mine from Holy Cross. We're still close. For a long time at that house that I mentioned, we would have like 25 people come down for president's weekend, bringing their families. We had this at a mini reunion. My wife, Carol, during the pandemic at six o'clock every Tuesday night, there's a Zoom call where they call themselves the Carlin Girls. They're in their sixties. They're not girls, but they do a Zoom call and they'll get 20 people in it. And every five years, they take a trip together and they go to Miami, or I guess, The Bahamas they've been to, all because there's this rich connection that was made at Holy Cross. Maura : It is. It's a special, my best friends in the world are from Holy Cross. It is, it's a special time, and it's nice when you can make those connections. It's amazing to see them last. Mark : And there's something about the Jesuit Mission and the liberal arts that always has you asking, inquiring and asking for more. It directly feeds into the business we have, which is a social enterprise. We have a social mission, and where do you get that from? Well, you get it from some of the activism and some of the yearning that was instilled in me in college. Maura : Well, and it seems like, looking at your career, from Holy Cross, you mentioned the Kennedy School, and then fast forward to today with John's Crazy Socks. It seems like, and I'd love to hear from you, but it seems like there's this thread of entrepreneurial-ism and mission and 'striving for the more' that seemed to be woven throughout your path. Mark : I look back and I guess I've always been an entrepreneur. I didn't always have the language to use it, but early on, everything and again, I didn't always necessarily have the language, but everything was mission-driven. So, I got out, I taught school for two years. Pure happenstance that I did that, I went to graduate school for literature. I was in a doctoral program and I'm sitting in there, sitting in a class the day the US invaded Grenada. And I don't know if people remember. It was this tiny island and we had to go rescue medical students. It was crazy. And I'm like, I should be doing something. So that's how I got the job at the Congressman. I showed up at his office and said, "I want to work with you." They said, "Well, we don't have any jobs." "That's all right. I'll volunteer. I just want experience." Mark : We move into a community and you'd connect. I can remember when we moved into Greenpoint, Brooklyn, we were early hipsters. It was before it boomed, and through the church and we set up a food bank, we set up a clothing depository. We work with the local recycling program to set something up, because you go and do that. I spent much of my career in the healthcare field. I wound up running the Medicaid health service program in New York City, and then ran a series of companies that were trying to figure out, how do you better deliver healthcare to the poor? How do we better organize care? Mark : But some of that Holy Cross thing was always there of the liberal arts and how do you pursue that mission and those values and still be carrying things out? But that wide interest, it fueled a lot. I started a software company. I ran political campaigns. I did a fair amount of writing. I published some of my less than really terrible fiction. And even this enterprise, we've now been doing this for four years, but people would say, well, when did you get into it? How long have you worked in retail? How long have you been in the sock game? Got no background in it. But I'm 62 today, everything I have done has prepared me for this moment. Everything I have done in my life has prepared me for this interview. Maura : Well, and that is the perfect segue to pull you into this John too, and to talk about John's Crazy Socks, and talk about the incredible work that you are doing. Because you're making a lot of change and you're doing a lot of good in the world through this company. Mark : We're very fortunate, but what are the two things you always talk about? John : Try to do for others. Mark : Try to do for others. It sounds trite, but the more we can do for others, the better off we are. We're living a dream. We get to do what we want to do. We have no excuses. We can't blame it on the board. We can't blame it on headquarters. And it also speaks to the way we run the business and our appearance. One of the internal ambitions, and I've always wanted this to be a way, I want this to be a great place to work. I want people to love working here. We work at that and you make that happen, and that runs through... What's our overall mission pal? John : Spread happiness. Mark : Spreading happiness. Well, you got to start at home and people got to be happy, and you have to understand it can't be lip service, it's got to drive through everything you do. So, here's an easy way. When it comes to customer service, you heard the old saw, the customer is always right. Nonsense. The customer can be damn wrong. But we're not in the business of being right. We're in the business of making customers happy. So, we don't limit any time that people spend with customers. People that work with our customers know they can spend 200 hours on any customer, at any time, doing anything they want, just go and wow that customer. Mark : We had something last week. Somebody had ordered something they said they were going to pay by check. That's pretty rare, somebody say they pay by check. And what our folks did was they said, "Okay," but they didn't fill the order until the check arrived. And when they did, it was an item we had sold out. So we sat and I said, let's think about this. First, in four years, maybe we've received 15 checks. It doesn't happen. Every time somebody says, they're going to send us a check, they send us a check. So, why not just live in a world where we trust people. And as soon as we get the order, we ship it out and trust that we're going to get the check. And my colleagues are looking and saying, "Can we do that?" "Why not? We can do whatever the hell we want to do." Mark : And they were like, "Well, what if people do this or that?" I said, "Nobody does that. Would you do that? So why don't we just treat people that way?" And it's so easy. And wouldn't you rather live in that world? Maura : Yes. Mark : Now, if we get burned, if all of a sudden people are fake, but it doesn't happen. We doing the same thing with our returns. You don't have to send us anything. Just let us know. If there's any problem we're going to replace it. We're going to give you your money back. We want to make you happy. What results of that? Well, if we treat you that way, you tell other people. Aren't people happy, because we're not going through stuff. We're just trying to make you happy, and our return rate last month, our refund rate was 0.6%. Businesses would kill to do that. We give away anything we can. Maura : Well, and I know that the origin story, if you will, of John's Crazy Socks is out there for people to read and to watch. But I'd love to hear from you about that moment, because I talk to so many people who dream of starting their own business. Who say, someday, I'd love to do this, but there's a very small percentage who actually do it. So what sparked that courage to really go and make this happen? Mark : Well, first of all, it is, again, it's much simpler than you think. Worst thing that happens is, you fail. And you go on. But ours grew out of a specific situation, this particular business, and origin stories matter. Because you take your DNA and they run through everything. So ours, it's the fall of 2016, and where were you buddy? John : I'm in school dad. Mark : Which school? John : Huntington High School. Mark : So, he's in Huntington High School in the states, and this is across the country. You can remain in high school until you either graduate or turn 21. If you have a disability, you can stay until you're 21. So this was going to be John's last year at school. Like everybody else, he's trying to figure out what do I do next? What are you looking at? John : I looked at shop programs in school. Mark : See anything you like? John : No, I never saw anything I liked. Mark : Well, the answer is, there's not a lot of great choices. John grew up in a household where he saw me starting different businesses and running things. And I'd like to say he's a natural entrepreneur, because he did things like that himself in school. I remember showing up at his summer school, we've got a summer program, and came into some and the principal came out and said, "I want to talk to you about John." And that was always good. Particularly my middle guy, Jamie, the principal comes, wants to talk to me, that's not good. That's the same way with me. But with John, okay. Well, it turned out John wanted to run a talent show, and he organized a talent show at the school. Never mentioned to me. He didn't think why I have to ask permission, I just go and do this. Mark : So, he doesn't see anything he like, the natural entrepreneur doesn't see that as a problem, but as an opportunity. So what do you tell me? John : I want to go into business with my dad. This is my idea. Mark : I was starting some online businesses. He comes and tells me that, it's like, okay, let's go do this. And traditionally, what you do in a business, once you get the idea, is you stop everything to prepare a business plan. Work out your competitive analysis, your market research, your operational projections, financial projections. We did none of that. We went what's known as the lean startup route. We were bootstrapping. Let's just get something up and running. I've worked with venture capitalists before and done that. We didn't want to do that. Just get something up and running. And he's the perfect partner because he just believes, of course this is going to work. Maura : Why wouldn't it? Mark : Why wouldn't it? And so much of what we've been able to do is why not? So, I'll let you know on something that's coming up on March 30th. This is top secret information. On March 30th, we're going to introduce our unity socks, which are blue socks with American flags on them. We want them to symbolize inclusivity and unity, and we get this idea. We want to give them to every member of Congress. So on March 30th, we have two local congressmen coming, a Republican and a Democrat, to help us introduce these socks, and we're going to give them to every member of Congress. We've already been invited to come up to Albany and do it in the New York State Legislature. And we see ourselves that we can go across the country, just symbolizing look what's possible. Have John be handing out these unity socks. What a wild, ridiculous idea and yet, okay, who's going to stop us? Maura : And yet it's so perfect. What a perfect idea. Mark : And it just grows. Not every idea is a good idea. We have bad ones. We do a lot of presentations. Right before this, we were speaking virtually to a school in New York City. Last week, we got a question from a high school student, need to ask permission from to do these things. It's like, no, that's part of the power. You don't have to ask anybody for permission. Just go and do and come back to... It's the nature of the social enterprise. You've got to have a mission. Mark : You can't be, we just want to make money. It's got to be something larger than yourself, an impact you want to have on the world. And when you're driven by that, it's so motivating. All the petty stuff falls away, and that's how you can go and connect with people. We get asked, what's the key ingredient? Which skill? A lot of it is just belief. If we have a mission to spread happiness, just believe. So when you ask on the origin story, okay, we'll find a way forward and we'll go test it. And it turned out it went well, right buddy. Maura : Well, I think even more than just believe, you talked about wanting to make a great place for people to work. And I think that the fact that you care about your employees, and you care about the people, both who work with you and who you serve, that is another really big piece. Mark : It's all the whole. So yes, our mission is to spread happiness. You do that by hiring people with differing abilities and showing what they can do, by giving back and by making personal connection with our customers. When it comes to this workplace, one of the things we're trying to share with other employers, hiring people with differing abilities is not altruism. It's good business. And what do we see? Morale is way up. Productivity is high, retention is through the roof and it helps us recruit. And it makes for a better workplace. You think the benefits would mainly accrue to the people with differing abilities, but everybody is better off and everybody is happier. Mark : But I've worked over the years into, in essence, a formula on employee engagement. One, you have to start with a mission in which people can believe. It's got to be something greater than ourselves. It's got to be something that can matter. Two, everybody has to know how they fit into the mission, how their job matters. There's no leg work. There's no, I'm just a cog in a machinery. Yes, our webmaster knows, but our sock wranglers, that's what we call the pickers on our pick and pack warehouse, they know their job matters. Mark : Three, put people in a position to succeed. Don't ask them to do what they can't do. Give them the tools. If they need a special chair, get them a chair. If they need a software tool, a webmaster needs some analytical tool, get that for them. As a manager, you have to be a leader. And in doing that, what you have to make clear to people is, I work for you. My job is to put you in a position to succeed and if you have problem, if you have a limitation, my job is to try to help remove that limitation. Mark : Four, recognize what people do. People care. It's as simple as saying, thank you. I saw you doing this. What you do matters. We value. And then the last, stay the hell out of the way. Let people do their jobs and they will thrive. But some of this comes down to, it's like a Christian thing. Do unto others, treat people the way you would like to be treated. If you treat people poorly, they will respond that way. If you treat people that I don't trust you, so I have to manage and inspect and micromanage, they will respond in kind. Maura : Well, and I know that you've had a lot of opportunities to spread this message. I recently saw that you joined this CEO Commission on Disability Employment. And I know when we've spoken before, you mentioned going before Congress in the past. Mark : We've been very fortunate. We've had a fair amount of media coverage. We've had some viral experiences, and we go out and basically proselytize. John, you love the speaking engagements, right. John : Yeah. I love speaking engagements. Mark : So yes, we've done things. We've testified twice before Congress, we've spoken to United Nations. We're part of the State Department Speakers Bureau. So they had us take a little speaking tour in Canada. We didn't get tour T-shirts made up, next time we will. And yes, we're on the CEO Commission for Disability Employment. And I laugh. This was founded by Voya Financial and the Society of Human Resource Managers. How are we on this? Like, we're on this National Autism @ Work Roundtable with IBM and Microsoft and Ernst & Young and Warner Brothers, and John's Crazy Socks? Mark : We appreciate the opportunities and you could go back to Rome and find this motto, and you can see it with the Kennedy's and with Spider-Man. To those who are given opportunities, come great responsibilities. So I'll give you an anecdote on that. We're down on Capitol Hill, and we get a phone call here in New York in the office, from a customer in Houston who says, "I see that John and Mark are on Capitol Hill. My mother works there. She's a big fan of John's, would it be possible for them to meet my mom?" Person says, "Sure. Here's Mark's cell phone. Just text him your mom's name and contact information and he'll do it." Who's mom? Nancy Pelosi. Mark : So now, we get an audience with Nancy Pelosi and forget about right wing, left wing. We vilify our politicians too often, or deify them. They're just people. She's a grandmother. She comes in, her eyes light up seeing John, and she brings out pictures of socks that she gave former President Bush, because John had become a sock buddy with former President Bush, George H W Bush, where they exchanged letters and socks, and all this is great. We take photos, but now we have this opportunity that creates an obligation. Mark : So it's yes, but Ms. Pelosi, we have to talk about some other matters. One, we have to talk about repealing section 14(c) of the Fair Labor Standard Act of 1938, great piece of American legislation. It created the 40 hour workweek, it eliminated child labor, it created overtime. But it allows employers to pay people with a disability less than minimum wage. So, there are 400,000 people being paid as little as five cents an hour. And we are grateful that we have this opportunity, but we are now going to take advantage of this. Mark : I'll give you a recent one where, despite our best efforts, we contracted the COVID virus, John, my wife and myself. And for Christmas, we gave John a hospital stay. He was admitted on Christmas Day, it was dicey for a few days. People say it's nothing, it's just the flu. Now very healthy, got out eight days later. So, we held an event at the hospital because we know we can attract media attention. So we went back to the hospital and you got to thank everybody, right? John : I did. Mark : But we also used it to do two other things. One, to raise awareness about the risk that people with down syndrome face, they're not more likely to get the virus, but if they do, five times more likely to be hospitalized, 10 times more likely to die. So, we want to get that word out. The other thing, the hospital let me stay with John the entire time, even when he was, because things went bad for a day or two. When they moved him to the critical care unit, they let me stay. Now, Federal Regulations require that people with a disability, that they get access to their caregivers. That's not the way it's practiced, particularly during COVID. So, we wanted to highlight look, this is better for everybody. That there's always a little medicine with the sugar. Mark : So, we keep driving that mission and you can't separate the two. We'd like to make money, we'd like to live indoors, like to pay the rent. And if the business doesn't succeed, then we'll go home and all this stops. So you got to make that happen, but like the giving back. So, we baked into it from day one. We donate 5% of our earnings where? John : Special Olympics. Mark : Special Olympics. Why the special Olympics? John : I'm a Special Olympics athlete. Mark : And then we've created a whole series of products that celebrate causes and raise money for charity partners. So the first one was a down syndrome awareness sock, raises money for the National Down Syndrome Society. But more recent ones, an EMT tribute sock raises money for a local EMT squad. Last April, we wanted to thank people. We introduced healthcare, superhero socks, and they've raised over $50,000 for frontline workers. Mark : And there have been different points when very smart people have said to me, you're not making money. What are you doing making these donations. But we wouldn't have the business we have if we weren't doing that. Willingness for the long haul. So, among things that are really cool, our little business we've raised over $400,000 for our charity partners. Maura : That's amazing. Mark : John here is a special Olympic athlete, who's raised over $100,000 for the special Olympics. We make sure everybody who works here knows they're all philanthropists. It's very cool. We're so fortunate. So in the end, we are these knuckleheads running a sock business and this is a small business, and all we want to do is change the world. How much fun? Maura : And you're doing it too. That's the incredible thing. Is even if it's in small ways, as you showed all of these donations, one pair of sock here, the one conversation there, it's changing hearts and minds. Mark : That has been the thing that has surprised us the most, and it's still hard to wrap our minds around and we have to be really careful about. But people take inspiration and there is a deep, emotional connection. I could tell you all sorts of stories of things we get to see, but I'll tell you one that my wife likes me to tell because I tear up sometimes. Mark : The National Down Syndrome Society sponsors Buddy Walks around the country, but the biggest one is in New York City. Before it starts, they rent a billboard in the city in Times Square, and they want like a video with faces on it of people with down syndrome. So, we go there and John's like a rock star in that community. People are swarming him. But a woman comes up to me and just hugs me and says, "Thank you." Mark : Okay, what's going on? And she explains that she is from Curacao, an island just off of Venezuela. And she tells us that her daughter had gotten pregnant and tested that she was going to have a child with down syndrome. She explained that on Curacao, people were ashamed of people with disabilities, that they hide them. It's something they don't want deal with, talk about it. And in fact, everybody knew that her doctor said, "This is what you're going to do. You're going to get an abortion." And to me, this is not really an abortion story. This was just, this was grant. This is what's going to happen. And the family came home and they saw a news story about John and John's Crazy Socks. Mark : And she said, it changed their entire outlook. And she introduced us to her one year old son. How awesome. We get people coming up to us all the time, thanking us and telling us how they want to do this with their child, or it gave them hope. And we have to be careful. We have nothing special. We're just out doing these things and sharing. So when John stands up in front of a crowd, be it 10 people at a SEPTA, be at 22,000 people at Madison Square Garden, and they see what he can do, it changes people's minds. And we are very fortunate to be able to do that. Maura : I think you really are living that mission of spreading happiness and of doing great things with the opportunities that you've been afforded. Mark : We've been given a lot. We had our family and I could go on about my other boys and the love of my life. We'll be married 40 years. John : It's 39 years still. Mark : It's still 39, I know. Mark : There's a reasonable chance that we'll make it to June. Reasonable chance. Maura : Fingers crossed. Mark : Well, you know. I'm still a Dylan fan. There's that line, when I see you, I don't know if I want to kiss you or kill you. A lot a marriage in that. Here's just some of what we get to do, and how fortunate. We get to see minor miracles all the time. So one of our colleagues, Thomas, his mother calls us in October of 2017 and says, "I understand you hire people like my son. I need you to give him a job." We're not hiring, we'll post when we are. She calls every day and the moms are persistent. She's not the only one who's done this. So I got on the phone with her and I said, "Well, tell me about Thomas." Mark : She says, "Well, he's early twenties. He's on the autism spectrum. And he's in a very bad way. He's very depressed. We have trouble getting him to come out of his room. He won't shower or shave. He doesn't want to deal with anybody. We can't get him to join any programs or activities. It's so bad he hasn't spoken to his father in over six months." Sounds like a great employee. Mark : So, we have an opening and bring him out. And the opening is for our sock wrangler position, that's kind of our entry level position. We pay $15 an hour to start because everybody, you got to pay a fair wage. The way you get the job, you meet with John and me. We want to make sure you understand the mission and our values. Then one of our current sock wranglers will train you and they love doing it. You've trained people. John : Yes. Mark : They love doing it. And then when you're ready, you have to pass the sock wrangler test. You got to pick six orders, 30 minutes or less, show us you can do the job. Well, Thomas comes out and after an hour of training, says, "I'm ready." And he passes that test as if he was put on this earth to be a sock wrangler. Today, on the days he works, Thomas is ready, showered and shaved at 6:30 in the morning for his father to drive one hour to work. When he gets in here, the young man who wouldn't look at anybody or talk to anybody, goes around and wishes everybody in the building a good morning. Mark : I want to be really clear here. We did nothing. We did no special training, no government funding, no special programs. All we did was give Thomas the opportunity to earn a job, and how fortunate are we? And so Holy Cross, the imprint that studying and understanding the liberal arts in the way it gets you to think and prepare, the way you imbue. Some of this comes from studying literature. You imbue different levels, different things all in the same action. That runs through what we do. I've spoken to students. Mark : So, I was an English major, I got out in 1980. There was no internet. Fax machines had not come, they've come and gone. There were no cell phones. We run an E-commerce business, I couldn't have studied that if I wanted to. But the liberal arts let you understand how to learn, how to figure things out, and so this runs through what we do today. And a lot of my classmates would be shocked to think that someone would be interviewing me for a Holy Cross alumni network. You've met those friends. John : I do. Mark : Paul, you should be talking to him. Paul Miles running a charter school and John Flynn, who's got this bicycle recycling program in Hartford. Charlie Brown or Chris Potter and Sue Mack and all these good people. Maureen, lots of good stuff. Maura : John, what's the best part for you about working with your dad? John : One thing I love working with my dad, I'm so lucky to be where he is. I'm never without my dad. He always, I've changed I can, if possible. I love my dad. Third and lastly, about my dad going to Holy Cross. I am a proud son because I am so, so happy of him being my father. Mark : What about your mom? You got to speak up for her, right? John : Yeah. I'll never forget mom. I am proud son. I am so proud of my dad, my mom accomplished. They are amazing accomplished. Mark : And you like hearing the stories of how we met, right? John : Oh yeah. Dad is so romantic. Mark : Romantic? Ricky, Kevin and I were looking for beer. And I can tease something for you. I'm not going any further than this. I've read in the alumni magazine and seen references to the fingers on the Jesus statue in the quad. I can tell you I was there and I know what happened. But that's it. No names, no details. Maura : Living mystery. That's what that is. Well, and my last question, this has just been really wonderful. What is your favorite pair of socks? Mark : What's your favorite pair? John : My favorite pair, my down syndrome superhero socks. Mark : Down syndrome superhero socks. Maura : Yes, that sounds like a good pair. Mark : Whose face is on those socks? John : Me. Mark : You. Maura : Good choice. Mark : You're a funny boy. Maura : I think we'll all have to check out that pair of socks. This has been an absolute pleasure. Is there anything else you want to share with listeners before we go? John : I want to say something. It's something that I said before... Mark : Go ahead. John : I am so proud of my dad's career. I am so proud of my dad's career and college. I am a proud son. I love my dad and what he did. It's wonderful. Mark : Well, there's a late poem from Yates where he recounts his achievements and those were notable, part of the revolution, part of the day of the Senate, winning a Nobel prize. But the refrain is what then sang Plato's ghost, what then are you going to do for me next? And we get to keep doing things, right? John : I love you dad. Mark : My boy. Maura : Thank you both so much. This has been just such a pleasure. John : I'm so proud of you Dad. Mark : Well, you let us know if there's ever something we can do. You got to put the pitch in. Where do people get stuff? John : At JohnsCrazySocks.com. Mark : There you go. Maura : Perfect. Yes. And I can say, I treated the alumni relations team to a pair of donut socks last year for Christmas, and they have been a big hit. So, I am a fan of John's Crazy Socks. Thank you for everything that you do. Mark : Well, thank you. John : I'm a big fan of my dad. Mark : You're a fan of your dad. Boy, you are being nice to me today. Maura : That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the Mission to be people for and with others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross, who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know, would like to be featured on this podcast, then please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of St. Ignatius of Loyola, now go forth and set the world on fire. Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

Modern-day Renaissance woman Yolanda Rabun ’90 is joined in conversation with Holly Tente ’23.  Their inspirational conversation covers a lot of ground.  With their shared passion for social justice, they speak about how Holy Cross inspires them to work hard and make change in their own communities. Interview originally recorded on February 24, 2021. Due to the ongoing effects of the pandemic, all interviews in season 2 are recorded remotely. --- Yolanda: ... always pursue excellence in the sense that you are not afraid to try something new and you are not afraid to push the envelope to really be your authentic self and deliver all that you possibly can. Not only for yourself, but also for the school, because now you're helping the community. And that's what this is all about. That's what I think Holy Cross is all about. It's about preparing us to go out in the world to help each other become the best that we can be. Maura: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I am delighted to welcome you to today's show. In this episode, we hear from Yolanda Rabun from the class of 1990, a modern day Renaissance woman. Yolanda is a person of many talents: lawyer, executive, speaker, wife, mom, actor, recording artist, producer, and many more to come. She currently works as senior corporate counsel for IBM and credits Holy Cross for sparking her interest in computers and coding. She is also an executive sponsor for Black Girls Code, where she works to inspire the future generation of leaders. Maura: She's joined in conversation by Holly Tente from the class of 2023. Their conversation is nothing short of inspirational and offers a good boost to help you get out of bed each morning. They speak about pushing the envelope and pursuing opportunities that will cause you to change and grow into the person that you are meant to become. They share advice for how to hold onto your dreams and persevere during hard times. With their shared passion for social justice, they speak about how Holy Cross inspires them to work hard and make change in their own communities. Yolanda's personal journey offers a wonderful example of the difference that you can make when you don't wait for things to happen to you. Instead, happen upon things. Holly: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Mission-Driven. My name is Holly Tente and I'm joined by Yolanda Rabun. Yolanda, how are you doing? Yolanda: I am fantastic Holly. It's so good to talk to you. Holly: It's great to talk to you too. Oh my gosh. I don't know about you, but this week has been quite the week. It's been incredibly busy and I think that I'm really starting to suffer from not having a spring break soon. My goodness. Have you been finding that too with your work? Yolanda: I have been finding that this week has been a challenge, but I think it might be because we are close to spring, and not far enough away from winter to appreciate either of the two, because they're both great seasons to be in. I think our entire lives are run in seasons and each one has its purpose and we're probably both in the middle trying to get from one to the next and as a result, it just presents challenges. So the good news is we just have to get through them, figure them out. Holly: Exactly. How would you say that you stay motivated as we go through this transition? Yolanda: Part of my motivation is being alive. I think in the times that we live in having such a high number of people who have left this earth you are constantly reminded of the preciousness of life and that's my motivation. It is that I need to take advantage of every single moment that I have been blessed to live and not squander it on wishing for what is completely out of my control. And or hoping for something that is just not mine or ready for me to have. Holly: Yes. I've been trying to live through that as well, especially I'm one of those students that's been remote for a very long time now. And I've found that with the lack of a social life, I've definitely been feeling kind of down at certain points, especially during a dreary month like February. So I really appreciate those words, Yolanda and speaking of Holy Cross, have you found that your motivation and your own mission has been influenced by what Holy Cross taught you? Yolanda: Oh, yes. When I came to Holy Cross, I was 17 years old and I was in a moment of figuring out who Yolanda is, but also extremely excited about who Yolanda could become and extremely excited about just doing something different and new, because I was from Atlanta and I've never been to Massachusetts and I've never been a wealth of snow that was pretty calm or even been in a colder climate. I had never been in an atmosphere where everything was hilly and that you would get your exercise just walking from one side of the campus to the other, all these things were new. And so I think I was intrigued by the newness of what was before me, but also slightly curious and maybe even potentially afraid of what I didn't know. Holly: Right. Well, I definitely can feel that, I'm just a sophomore right now and I very clearly remember what it was like when I did arrive on the hill. Thankfully it was under more normal circumstances, but that experience was definitely a very different one for me, even though I am from a similar climate. There were a lot of new things that I had to take on very quickly and I think... Yolanda: So that is Holy Cross, right? If you think about what is Holy Cross, you have along with your classmates experienced an amazing opportunity to embrace change and it didn't have to do with your age or your culture or your background. It had to do with a life circumstance. And I can't say that in any generation you just can't wait for that big thing to happen. But when it does, what a beautiful time I feel it is for you to be in school where you can learn how people adapt and learn how people do not adapt and figure out new ways to make it work for you. And in a sense it's global, right? Because it is an opportunity not only for Holy Cross to really step up to its mission of teaching and allowing you to learn in the most diverse environment you can learn in. Yolanda: But what an experience it is to be able to almost be in a safe place. And I feel like my experience at Holy Cross was exactly that. I didn't have that monumental life circumstance, maybe the World Series was won in Boston when I was there and that was a pretty big deal. But for all intents and purposes, I just remember being in a space where I was given an opportunity to figure out how to grow up and I felt safe in the sense that Holy Cross gave me an amazing teaching environment and also an amazing group of people that were diverse, that I can learn from and then all these other great things that I can get involved in that. Yolanda: I think that's probably why I got so involved at Holy Cross because I was learning, I came in being a cheerleader because I had been a cheerleader all my life following the purposes. So I knew what that was. And I went in to do what I normally do. And the story is that when I auditioned, I didn't make it. And so that was a huge first life lesson for me to not make that squad, but also to ask the question, why? To learn from that experience to really understand how to be patient in a moment where I knew what I knew and then I didn't. Holly: I remember when you shared the cheerleading story, I was at your event that was hosted by Women in Business recently. And I was just so taken aback because the lesson that you drew from it was that it's important to be kind and patient, but also to respect others and to not become arrogant, I think was what lesson you were trying to have us draw from that. And as someone who I believe is as accomplished as you are Yolanda, I'm sure... Not, I'm sure, but I think that hearing that from you was just really amazing because I think that it's a lesson that we all overlook because we're all working towards something bigger than ourselves. And I think that it's important to stay humble and, yeah. So I really appreciate you sharing that. And I think that we can talk about that lesson as we get into your career a little later, but before we move on, I'd really love to hear about what else you were involved in during your time on the hill. Yolanda: Okay. So when I was at Holy Cross, I was a cheerleader. I was an RA as well as a head RA and I was a senior interviewer. I was in a group called SPUD. I'm not sure if it's there anymore. Holly: SPUD is still very much alive, still very much going. Yolanda: Yeah. I loved SPUD and then I was... I'm going to say this and it may sound crazy, but I was a part of work study. And the reason why I look at it as something being involved in is because my work study job and I had several of them, but the one that I loved the most was, I was a clerk for the audio visual department. And it was there that I actually found my love for computers and my love for coding. And it is eventually what led me to the realization that IBM is where I was supposed to be. So I think I hold that job near and dear to me. And then I am a member of the Honors Program. So I graduated with honors from Holy Cross having been a student in the Honors Program and writing a thesis for my graduation. Holly: Right. And what was that thesis on? I think if I remember correctly, it was quite a unique thesis. Yolanda: So my thesis was on Black women in the 19th century and the politics of race, sex, and class. And my approach in doing the thesis was to come from a political science perspective, that was my major. But also I had the benefit and the joy of having B. E. McCarthy is one of my advisers. And so from an English perspective and also he was in charge of the African-American history program that we had at the time. I kind of had him as one of my advisors. I loved that project because it was really mission-driven to who I became and what my purpose was on the campus. And it was, I felt congruent with Holy Cross's purpose, right? Because Holy Cross said that it was in the pursuit of excellence in teaching and learning and in research. And so part of becoming Yolanda was researching who Yolanda is, and I was and still am an African-American woman. And I wanted to know more about me. Yolanda: I didn't learn a lot in high school from that perspective because I went to a school of the performing arts. And so I was heavily in my arts when I was in high school. So when I came to college, it was a perfect time to find out my own history and to figure out how to insert my history in every single class I could possibly insert it in to understand how I fit in. And so when it came down to doing the thesis or what topic I would pick, I thought there's some Black girl magic before it was even created in the U.S. later. There's some Black girl magic in knowing these women who came before me who studied politics, who had to deal with the issues of race, sex and class. And so I chose that topic. And then with my background in the performing arts, I not only wrote the thesis, but I also wrote a play from the thesis that was presented as a part of my presentation. Holly: Do you remember any of the students that acted in that play? Are you friends with any of them now, still? Who was in it? Yolanda: I do remember some of the folks as a matter of fact, they're dearest friends of mine now, Jacqueline Abercrombie, Lorraine Lane, Tonya Baskin. I had members from the football team who were in my play. And I had friends who were in the audio visual department who helped me because a part of it was a multimedia presentation. Not only was there acting, and I sang throughout it but I also narrated it. I also had film, so we had film going on and so some of my actors were actually recorded as a part of the presentation. I think we introduced multimedia entertainment way ahead of it's time. Holly: You should have trademarked it. It sounds like you were so ahead. I'm from Rhode Island and I've been to shows that the Gamm and Trinity Rep, and they've just started to really make their shows like that and use film and overlay slides and stuff. Wow. And you were doing that in 1990. Yolanda: So three years ago we introduced audio visual. And part of that was the beauty of Holy Cross, because I dreamed that big. And instead of saying to me, no, no, no, we only do it this way, or we've never done it that way. They said, what do you have? And that's probably why I'm near and dear to Holy Cross as I am, because it was at a time when I was growing up, when I was finding myself that I was not given limitations. And I think any institution that has any value to who it is and what its purpose is to any individual in this world, it is to make sure that they don't squander away creativity or prohibit really things to unfold as the universe designed them to unfold. Holly: I think as a current student, I can speak to that and I think Holy Cross has maintained that mission that you just outlined. I'm studying history, obviously it's my major, but I'm doing a CIS minor in film right now. And I've found that even though I'm one of about five people that do the film studies minor every year at the school, there are so many different resources. And if there's something that Holy Cross cannot provide for me directly, there are so many places that they put me in the direction of. And I know I got in touch with Connor who put me in touch with you, and here we are right now. Yolanda: No, really, because we talk all the time and I love that. And you just reminded me that when I was preparing for my thesis, I asked Holy Cross to help me really just find other sources of information outside of what was in the library to understand about Yolanda, Black Yolanda, Black history. And Holy Cross sent me to a retreat that I will never forget for as long as I live, because at that retreat I met Betty Shabazz, who is Malcolm X's wife. I met her in person. I met Sonia Sanchez who is a poet. And that was really important because a part of my poem or presentation was in the form of a poem. Although it was written in script form, it had verse in it. And so Sonia Sanchez being close to her, listening to her speak and her feel moments, I thought I had won the lottery to be honest. Yolanda: And I got the privilege of talking about me and teaching other people about me. And it was because Holy Cross gave me that opportunity. So I always encourage other students of color, especially. And I think I had some influence perhaps on the classes that came behind me to always pursue excellence in the sense that you are not afraid to try something new and you are not afraid to push the envelope to really be your authentic self and deliver all that you possibly can, not only for yourself, but also for the school, because now you're helping the community. And that's what this is all about. That's what I think Holy Cross is all about. It's about preparing us to go out in the world to help each other become the best that we can be. Holly: Well, that was really amazing to hear. And I think that you truly did have an effect on classes to come, especially with building a legacy. And I think even speaking for myself, one of the reasons we got in touch was because Conner class of '92 put me in touch with you, because we were putting together a little event called The Good Trouble Series, which has now kind of taken off at the college. And if you haven't seen The Good Trouble Series, it was an initiative started by myself and another student in the history department and is currently being co-organized by members of SGA and then the two current chairs of the BSU, Jordyn Shubrick and Meah Austin. And we really wanted to have an event which focused around Holy Cross' racial history. And we wanted to do this through as early as the school's history dates back. And that's why we had professor Doughton as our keynote speaker to talk about our native American history, in addition to our racial, Black history specifically. Holly: And then we were able to have Art Martin and Ted Wells come on and talk about forming the BSU. And then we had Yolanda as well, and she was talking about her experience in the late 80s, early 90s. And it was just a really amazing event. And I think that if not for so many strong voices on our campus, we wouldn't have gotten to the place that we are today. And I think that it speaks volumes to Holy Cross, that we're able to come together. And obviously many institutions right now are having conversations about anti-racism and improving climate so that everyone feels welcomed. But I think that we're able to have opportunities on campus where we have those conversations, but we're able to have initiatives that actually accomplish something. And I know I'm incredibly grateful for that. Yolanda: Well, that's what I love about you, Holly. And also the class that you're in, which is why I want to encourage you when you go through a February that appears to be dreary or any other days that are going to come your way, that you stay focused on what the bigger purpose is. And I think when you do that, then you will lend yourself even more freely to social justice, to racial justice, to just justice in general. I know that it was an honor to be a part of that program. And I remember gravitating to you afterwards and saying, I like you, you should stay connected, but you said the same thing. Right? Holly: I did. It was definitely mutual. I've really enjoyed this connection and what we've been able to chat about. And you're a very good friend of mine now. That's what I'll say. So obviously we've talked a lot about Holy Cross and your experience on campus and the lessons you learned. I have a question for you just about IBM and where you are now. So how would you say the principles that you developed at college helps you when you enter the workforce and how you got to where you are now? Yolanda: So, Holy Cross for me was a learning field to understand different personalities, from men, women, northerners, southerners, just every walk of life diversity wise. And I take all of those experiences with me to work every day. And I literally, when I see a person respond a certain way, I'll go, Oh, that was Tom back in the day. I'll put in my brain, really who that personality reminds me of and how I responded at Holy Cross or how someone else responded and notably if I liked their response or not, or what I would do differently. And then I navigate through the issue, or maybe even the joy of the moment. So I feel like Holy Cross gave me an opportunity to study people. And it sounds perhaps a little bit facetious to say so, because obviously you can do that anywhere. But the uniqueness of Holy Cross is the diversity of people that were on the campus. And I always employ new students and anyone who will hear me that as you enter college, take advantage of really what is before you, which is this beautiful microcosm of people that are not necessarily like you. Yolanda: And even if they are like you, find out what's different, find the difference, find the variety and then learn from it. Because when you do that, you not only will take that skillset with you to adjust through college, but you take it with you into life. And if it doesn't apply to you, you may apply to someone you know. So I've often found myself even in the company at IBM seeing a scenario and knowing I had never experienced that personally, but I've seen it. So let me tell you what I've learned from where I've seen that and how you might address that situation. And it doesn't even have to be with race or deal with sex as far as male, female. You could just be a simple someone raising their voice and you don't like how that scenario turned out, but I've seen exactly that somewhere before. Let me tell you what I saw and what you could think about, that's what I learned from Holy Cross. And that's what I take with me from Holy Cross. And I value it. Holly: I definitely understand what you mean on the diversity of just anyone and everyone. I've met all sorts of people in my time at Holy Cross. And perhaps I met people like them even before I was at the college. And it's really interesting when you're moving forward in life and you're chatting with these people in the future. And you're like, Oh, this is someone that I knew from my monster rock class or something. I think it was a different curriculum when you were a freshmen, but it's just, I totally understand what you mean in that sense. And I think with IBM, my next question for you would be about 2021 and what projects you're working on and what you have coming down the line right now. Is there something that you're especially excited for? Yolanda: The project that I'm working on at IBM, I am actually serving as an executive sponsor for Black Girls Code, which is a non-profit organization that was dedicated to advancing opportunities and experiences for young Black women in the area of coding, whether it is in websites or mobile applications and what have you. And right now we're working on a project where we're introducing the opportunity for young girls to go through design thinking exercises, to come up with a problem that might address issues related to climate control and also racial justice issues. And so I'm pretty excited about that, especially because last year in 2020, I got involved in an open source project and actually contributed to an open source project on an application called Five Fifths Voter, that was designed to bring information to anyone who might've been disenfranchised ever, understand better their rights to vote and where to vote and why that vote is so important. Yolanda: So for me, that's a social justice issue that affects not just people of color, but the elderly, the poor. And again, if you think about it, that goes right back to what we are about at Holy Cross, which is helping our society connect to each other so that we are dealing with some of the, I don't know, inhumane conditions that we've created for ourselves that don't necessarily have to exist. So at IBM, as much as I'm involved in the law and quantum computing and artificial intelligence and many transactions with large universities. And I manage a team as a matter of fact, at IBM, who is responsible for all the contracts that come out of our research division. I think what gets me excited is that opportunity to give back to the community and give back through the auspices of the talent we have at IBM and the ability hopefully to train our future bosses in tech to come and join us. Holly: I mean, that's all you can really ask for. And it sounds like the initiative that you're forming, even though it's IBM, it's still sounds grassroots. And it sounds like it has really amazing core values, which I think is all you can ask for when you start a movement like that. And I think what I would wonder, and perhaps people listening are wondering about how perhaps when you don't have a platform where you're running a project, can you get involved with an idea, how do you get started in making change? Yolanda: I think the best way to get started is to apply yourself to the opportunities that you have. And what do I mean by that? I mean, when you come to college, you have an opportunity to pick courses and in different areas that you might want to study in, pick them with some sense of passion, that the subject matter intrigues you and then do the work, do it well, because what happens is when you are focusing on you and doing the work, those opportunities, those ideas, they come to you. Remember I said earlier that it was doing work study, that I started getting introduced to coding and computers, and that got me excited. It was a work study job. And yet this thing that came out of that exposure got me excited. So that over the course of time I have taken that thing that gets me excited and applied it. Yolanda: And the joke in IBM for me is that I have been involved with Black Girls Code for some time now, but it was probably about five years before I was in a position to say, let's do this. And in a sense that not only did I say let's do it, I said, I'll drive. I've been around long enough to know a little bit about that organization to know about IBM. And so how can I help us both meet our goals? I think that's strategic thinking. And I think that strategic thinking comes from my experience at Holy Cross of not only getting the opportunity to study in different areas, but then taking that information, that data and applying it to a larger cause and getting it done that's, I feel something I learned at Holy Cross and I've taken with me in life. Holly: I don't know anyone else listening is feeling this way, but I feel like I'm just getting the best, I don't know, pump up but it's midweek right now when we're filming this but I have just had the most slow, crazy day coming into this. And every time Yolanda and I chat, when we're not being recorded, I guess, I think that I always leave a conversation with Yolanda feeling as though I've learned a valuable lesson. And I truly mean that. And I hope that people listening right now feel the same way, because there's so much in terms of advice. There's so much in terms of just general enthusiastic language that Yolanda is putting out there for everyone right now. And I know personally, when you really do try to tap into your passions, good things happen. Holly: And I know personally, this past semester I was actually doing New York Semester Program, obviously remotely due to COVID, but I was a sophomore during the program. I was the first ever they accepted into the program and I was able to produce a documentary on reconstruction and I met Yolanda right as I was working on the doc. And I don't know, it's just, if you really want to achieve what you desire in the future, and if you really want to better the lives of others, it's possible. And if you have a home sense of justice like Yolanda does. And like, I think I have then you can really achieve anything. Yolanda: I 100% agree with that. And I think that the lesson is when you come into Holy Cross or while you're at Holy Cross, that you never lose sight that you are in a learning environment and that you never, if you can get a sense of entitlement, that someone owes you something, because I don't know that that is true, that the college owes you anything except the environment, the positive environment to learn, the positive environment to teach others about who you are and the positive environment to research and find out more than you've ever known before. Yolanda: If you go with that mindset that you want to grow, that you're not waiting, this is what I always tell people, that you're not waiting for things to happen to you. You're happening on things. When you go with that particular mindset, you're always going to win. I came into Holy Cross looking for Yolanda and I left Holy Cross knowing Yolanda better than I knew before. And I left Holy Cross with a community of Black friends, I had never known before who taught me about Yolanda. And I left with a community of friends that taught me how to navigate the world. And that is priceless. Holly: I think that you're completely right Yolanda. I would love to talk about theater in a moment, but before we move on, what advice would you have specifically for students that are currently attending Holy Cross? So for all students, regardless of class year, I mean, if you have a specific message for seniors versus freshmen versus sophomores or juniors, then definitely go right ahead. But I know at least for myself, it's been really difficult getting through these past couple of weeks and we're tired. And I think that it's starting to show. Yolanda: I think I would say to you to hold on to your dreams and what I mean by that is in the process of your uncertainty, whether it's a new freshmen and you don't know what's ahead of you or a senior, and you don't know what's ahead of you that you remember what sparked you to come to Holy Cross in the first place and what sparked your interest while you were at Holy Cross. So that even if in your now you're not living that dream, that you don't let it go. And rest assured that the seasons will change in life, but your dream will not. If it's a seed that's been planted in your soul, it's not going to leave you. What you must remember to do is to not leave it. And the way you basically do that is hold on to it and make plans on how you could possibly get back to that thing that you love. Yolanda: I left Holy Cross to go to law school because I was going to be a lawyer. And while I was at Holy Cross, I was also extremely active in the performing arts because I had done theater. And as you know, in my thesis we created this entire play with music and dance. And when I left Holy Cross, I went to become a lawyer and said, I shall put those things behind me. I am now going to be the lawyer that I am. And what I learned in my first year of law school is that when I abandoned part of me, when I let go of part of those dreams that were part of who I am, I lost part of me. And that's something I hope for no one. If there's a life lesson that I had it is, always bring your entire self to the table. And if your entire self doesn't fit at the table, ask for another chair, so that you can at least have a place holder for it until it's time for you to use your gifts. Holly: That's so great. And I definitely have had to pull up chairs a couple of times in my life. Yolanda: It's okay. It's actually okay. I think some people feel that the table has been set and that it cannot be changed. And I challenge this generation to believe that you actually can bring the chair to the table. You don't have to ask someone to bring it. You don't have to be upset because the table wasn't set the way you thought it should be set. Go get the chair and make space for your life. You asked the question, what would I want to really impart with a Holy Cross student, no matter where you are in your career at Holy Cross, I would tell you to become a life cheerleader. And what that means I believe is learn how to not only cheer others on to be the best that they can be, but cheer yourself as well. And the cheer to the extent that your life is valuable. Every moment, every mistake, every triumph, your life is valuable and never stop praising, never stop praising about who you are and who you can become. Holly: And that's how I get out of bed tomorrow morning. So thank you Yolanda. Oh my goodness, I don't know if anyone else needed that, but I needed that in that moment. So thank you very much. So obviously I can knock it into every single production that you've done, Yolanda. I know that you've also done some amazing commercials too, but that's for another day. I think I'm going to move on to my closing question, which has to do with musicals and if you need a moment to think about it, that's all right. My final question for you Yolanda is, you've often been described as a modern day Renaissance woman, and it's clear through our conversation and through your life, you've just built so many different legacies that continue to grow and continue to flourish. Holly: So I recently got into Hamilton after not wanting to get into Hamilton, because I didn't know if it would... it was the mainstream hype. I just didn't know if it would be worth it, but I did. And I do think it's great. The song, "Who Lives, Who Dies, Who Tells Your Story" is one that I think about a lot in my own life. And I'd asked you, how would you like people to remember Yolanda Rabun? Yolanda: In all of the thinking, I don't know if I've ever thought about that. What will people say at my funeral? I think I would like for people to know that Yolanda Rabun believed in love and in life and in the idea that anything can happen, if you let it. I think that our opportunity to excel is limitless. And I want people to know if they ever met me, if they ever heard my voice, if they ever even heard of me that they might be inspired to know that they can be anything they put their minds to, they can be anything that they believe that they can be. Yolanda: I believe that we all have a fingerprint that has been given uniquely to us. No one else has it. And that if we truly believe that and lived out our purpose, lived out our calling that this world will be a different world. I read something the other day that said, you don't have to explain to anyone or help them understand your calling because it wasn't a conference call. And that hit me because I feel if people understood that each of us has a purpose and we followed through with that purpose, our world will be a different place, it would be. Holly: And I think that I thought about this question and thank you very much. Obviously you're going to be around for a very long time after this. But that was really wonderful, thank you. Yolanda: No, I didn't feel my demise, that's okay. I didn't feel like, Oh gosh, I'm leaving us. I didn't feel that. But I think I hadn't thought about it because it's one of those things where I'm still in it, but life is just not, life is not promised. Time is not going to stand still because you say so. It's a wheel in constant motion rolling us along, telling us where to be, when to be, why to be. And we have to be episode careful to appreciate that if we manage time and stop letting it manage us, and we take advantage of today and live our lives today, as opposed to allowing other people to live through us or tell us how we're supposed to live or who we're supposed to be. If we stopped doing that. Oh gosh, okay, I get excited because we will be open now when a group of people. Yolanda: And I have to tell you when I was at Holy Cross, I felt that. I felt that moment a number of times when I was in the flow of life and I felt freedom to create, freedom to learn. I remember when I got that first A what it felt like. And I remember saying do that again. That's a freedom. That's a flow of just living life and knowing that what we can accomplish as students at Holy Cross is limitless if we apply ourselves, and we just do the work. Holly: Now for some speed round questions just before we close out. Yolanda, what was your favorite class at Holy Cross? Yolanda: History of sex. Holly: What is your favorite color and why? Yolanda: Purple, because it stands for royalty. And also because it was the school color. Holly: I love purple too. And who was your favorite professor during your time at Holy Cross? Yolanda: E. McCarthy for sure. Holly: What's the best restaurant in Worcester in your opinion? Yolanda: Sole Proprietor Holly: What is your go-to hype up song? Yolanda: Be Optimistic by Sounds of Blackness. Holly: This far in life, what has been your greatest achievement? Yolanda: My children. So I have two boys and I had them both naturally, which meant no drugs and that was huge. That was an achievement. Afterwards I asked myself, what have I done? Not picking the epidural and everything else, but believe it or not, my concept was that my four mothers did it without an epidural, so I will do, and I survived. So that was a huge achievement. Holly: Wow. So second to last question. What were your new year's resolutions or what was your new year's resolution? Yolanda: So I don't do new year's resolutions and that's just because I feel that whatever I'm going to decide for my intention for the year is not going to be subject to frivolity of what everything, the world says we should do. But what I do do, and I did do in 2021 is I designated it as my year of promise. As I have in past years, I allow words to come to me and feed me about how I feel my life is going to flow. And 2021, the word promise came. And as a result of that, much of my focus is around that concept. Holly: Well, wow. And now for the very last question of the chat, what have you learned today from this podcast? Yolanda: I have learned that I love Holy Cross way more than I talk about it. Holly: We'll put it in an ad for the school. Yolanda: No, it really is true. I believe that the pandemic has been a blessing to me because as much as I love Holy Cross and influenced by it, I don't think I've talked about it a lot. And what this allowed me to do is to reconnect and remember, and reflect more on how much of an influence Holy Cross has been in my today. And I love that and I love that I love Holy Cross. Holly: And I mean, so far I'm loving it too. And I think I'll continue to after this, we'll see. It's all good. It's all been really good so far. Well, I think that that is everything I had to ask you tonight. Yolanda, thank you so much for joining me on Mission-Driven. Yolanda: Thank you. Holly: Thank you very much for letting me host as well, Maura. This has been so much fun. Yolanda: Yeah, this has been great. Thank you for having me and take care and I can't wait to finish watching your journey. Holly: And I cannot wait to continue to see how yours unfolds and I can't wait to chat even more about the future. Yolanda: You got it. We're connected. Maura: That's our show. I hope you enjoy hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be people for and with others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross, who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, then please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcast. I'm your host Maura Sweeney and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, “Now go forth and set the world on fire.” Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

Carolyn Casey '87, founder of Project 351, is joined in conversation fellow alum and Project 351 volunteer, Jamie Hoag '98. They speak about Carolyn's career leading up to the founding of Project 351 and the many ways that the Holy Cross community has lifted her up and supported her along the way. Carolyn's journey exhibits the incredible difference that one person can have in making the world a better place. Interview originally recorded on September 25, 2020. Due to the ongoing effects of the pandemic, all interviews in season 2 are recorded remotely. --- Carolyn: How can service be a unifier and remind us that we have more in common than what makes us different. Maura: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, director of alumni career development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome to today's show. Maura: This episode features a conversation with Carolyn Casey from the class of 1987. Carolyn is a native of Taunton, Massachusetts and hails from a Holy Cross family with her three siblings and father all attending Holy Cross. After studying as an English major, Carolyn began work as a hostess before launching her decades-long career blending government and service for others. Her career was launched on a political campaign leading to a role as the director of national affairs in the early years at City Year and a 20-plus year career running corporate social responsibility for Timberland. Maura: Today, Carolyn turns her focus closer to home running Project 351, a youth service nonprofit she founded that engages eighth-graders in service from all 351 cities and towns across the state of Massachusetts. She is joined in conversation by fellow alum, Jamie Hoag from the class of 1998. They speak about Carolyn's time on the Hill and the way that service fueled her successful career afterward. Carolyn's journey exhibits the incredible difference that one person can make in making the world a better place. Jamie: Hi, Carolyn, this is Jamie. Carolyn: Hi Jamie. This is Carolyn. Jamie: How are you? Carolyn: I'm doing great. So happy to be with you. Jamie: Where are we chatting? Where are you chatting from? Carolyn: Well, I'm happily in the backyard of our family's house in Falmouth, Massachusetts. Jamie: Very nice. I'm in Watertown where I've been held up if you will, since March, but I'll say behind me, you can see other, others won't on the podcast, but a picture of Ruth Bader Ginsburg and in a place of honor behind me. Carolyn: On a historic day. The first woman to lay in state in the Capitol rotunda. Jamie: Very historic, very historic. She earned it, that is for sure. I thought I'd start. We'll get into more about your time at Holy Cross and what you've done since, but I want to hear a little bit about where you grew up and I know you grew up in Taunton. As you know, I grew up in Fall River- Carolyn: Yes. Jamie: ...and I'm interested to see how did growing up in Taunton or how did Taunton influence who you are today? Carolyn: Appreciate that question. First of all, clear year from Fall River, because you say Taunton the way we say it in Taunton. And there's a very strong kinship between Fall River and Taunton and New Bedford. One of the things that links those communities is a heritage of the blue collar ethic, and a passion for family, and for faith and community. And so when I think about Taunton and 28 Briar Drive, where I grew up with my three siblings, all Holy Cross alum and my dad, Holy Cross alum, and my mom, not a Holy Cross alum, but she didn't have a choice. Jamie: By association. Carolyn: It was all men when she was growing up, so she went to the Newton College of the Sacred Heart, which is now part of BC. But Taunton was formative in many ways, and I think one of the first things I think about is my dad who was an educator, lifelong educator after graduating from Holy Cross. He was a coach and he was a teacher, and then he ultimately became a school superintendent. Carolyn: But for us, for the Casey kids, we were really fortunate that we grew up in an environment, our mom had been a teacher. And so education as a gateway to discovery, and to journey, and to wonder, and to edification of your values and how you make your way in this world, it's very much part of our ethos, but not... People used to think, because my dad was a superintendent that like he'd lord over us to do homework, or we had to get honor roll. Carolyn: It wasn't like that at all. It was very much just a culture of learning. So it felt very integrated into both our schoolwork, but also how our family lived our lives. We weren't tremendously financially blessed, so our outings were lots of times to things like Plymouth Rock and Battleship Cove, and the Museum of Fine Arts and things like that. And so just a rich and deep appreciation for how every opportunity and every individual is an opportunity for growth, and for education, and for deeply understanding the human condition. Carolyn: That was certainly formative. And then both of my parents, great faith. My mom is 83, still goes to mass every day and the church and our faith being very central to the values that defined us, but also the way in which we are responsible as human beings in this world, which is we are our brothers and sisters keeper. So both for Kizzy, Joe and Mike, my siblings, but also the broader community. That was most definitely a guiding principle. Carolyn: And then the final thing, and I feel like I'm saying three very typical things, which is like- Jamie: No, no. Carolyn: ... education, and faith, and community, but in Taunton, I was... Happily will say I'm 54 years old and my Taunton girls are still core to my everyday life. Those friendships forged at E Pole Elementary School, or in the girl Scouts, or brownies are still defining for me. What my friends taught me and what Taunton as a community taught me was the importance of loyalty and the importance of devotion through times that are easy and difficult. Carolyn: Taunton as a city, I know you can relate Fall River, Taunton had glory days as a silver manufacturing and the last 50, 60, 70 years have been challenging years for Taunton. Jamie: Sure. Carolyn: But there's something about that, there's something about struggle and triumph, and struggle again, and then triumph again, and there's that resilience. And again, that sense that if we all pull together, we can achieve extraordinary things. Jamie: I think there's a certain work ethic and communities like Taunton and Fall River, New Bedford, that if you grew up in that environment, you're influenced by it. And I think no matter what you do, where you go, that has a special place in your heart, in your soul, if you will, to... It's also not more work ethic, but it's also to appreciate people who work hard, and work hard and to raise families on very little and are loyal to community, as you said. Jamie: You mentioned that you grew up in a Holy Cross family with your dad, obviously, and then the three brothers also went to Holy Cross. Did you have any choice in deciding what college to go to or was Holy Cross a given? Carolyn: I did actually, I was the controversial one. Because she would kill me if I let the record go on- Jamie: Kathleen too, your sister Carolyn: The oldest sister, yeah. Kathleen is class of '84, Joe, class of '85 and Mike, class '90. I just want to give a, a shout out to them, my best friends and heroes, and to all their classmates, which I think is one of the things about Holy Cross that we know so well is that the friendships that just go on, and on, and on. And so all of those classes, '84, '85 and '90, and of course my class, the great class of '87 are just filled with the most extraordinary people. So I send all of them love. Carolyn: But yes, so most definitely I did. I was the third, I was the second daughter. Kathleen was at Holy Cross premed, Joe was there as well together. And my father who had been visiting Holy Cross since the mid '40s as a student was sort of burning out on Holy Cross and was strongly encouraging me to go anywhere, but Holy Cross. And I don't know if that- Jamie: Why was that, if I may jump in? Carolyn: I don't know if he was thinking, and my mom, actually, my mom wanted me to go to an all-girls school and I got into Mount Holyoke and almost a full ride and for our family, that was a really big deal. Anyone who knows me that would not have been a successful endeavor. I don't know. I don't know if my father... Parents are wise and maybe he was thinking it was important for me to step out of my sibling shadow or... I'm not really sure what motivated it. Carolyn: But ultimately I ended up at Holy Cross and with his blessing and my mom's blessing, or the tuition check would not have been written. And then I was really lucky because I was the one Casey who went to school with all of my siblings. When I was a freshman, my sister was a senior, Joe as a junior. When I was a sophomore, Joe was a senior, when I was junior, I was there by myself. And then when I was a senior, Mike was a freshman. Jamie: Wow. What an amazing opportunity to be able to share that with your siblings? Carolyn: Yeah, it was very special and I feel really lucky because my dad's license plate is HC52. And when he passed away, that was the only thing I wanted. So now my car has HC52. And I love it because there are still HC52-ers who will come up to me. They're like, "Is that Bill Casey's car?" "Well, not his car, but his license plate." It just goes to show they're everywhere. Jamie: They're everywhere, we're everywhere, and that's a good thing. We like that as a kid. It's certainly a community. What was your first experiences Holy Cross like? Especially growing up, I would say is growing up as someone from Fall River, going to Durfee Public school, Holy Cross in some ways at the time was a foreign place to me, because there are a lot of people went to this academy and private schools, is what I'm trying to say. Jamie: And it was just a different culture for me. And did you have that, what I would argue is maybe a mild culture shock when you went to Holy Cross? Carolyn: The one thing I felt lucky about is I had... and I don't know if it's... Maybe comfort for me was wasn't an important part of going to Holy Cross, but my dad had been president of the alumni association and chairman of his class. So when we were growing up, we were up there like every weekend and we'd sometimes sit in Hogan and be bored and complain because we weren't with our friends in Taunton. But I had a really very strong sense of place there and a very... I knew where everything was. Carolyn: Not in a overly confident way that I was superior in any way, but I just knew my way around. And then of course, because my sister and brother went there, I started visiting my sister when she was a freshman. So I was like 15 and I was a sophomore and I would go up for weekends and stay with my sister. So I got a little bit of that experience too, like the classroom experience, going to Hogan, going to Kimball, going to keg parties in Hanselman... Jamie: ... I'm not going to ask for the stories there. I'm sure there are some. That's for a different podcast. Carolyn: Exactly. Especially given my current constituents of eighth-graders that I will not tell those on the record, but. My earliest days of Holy Cross, they are... I'll say one thing about my earliest days is that they foretold my four years because I hit the jackpot with the friends that I met very early on. So down the hall from me were the two Leannes- Leanne Kearney and Leanne Martin. Carolyn: And I was just texting with my whole Holy Cross circle right before I got on this. They are still... Just like my Taunton friends, still in my life every day, and still my teachers and my cheerleaders, and I hope I'm the same for them. But for me it started first with those friendships and sort of the rituals that I think so many people know from Holy Cross, which are 10:00 PM mass on Sunday and meeting at the hand in front of the library before you go down to Kimball, and just rich conversations. Carolyn: It sounds idealic, and when I look back, it feels idealic because we were in a different space in time than young people going to college. Now we definitely thank goodness didn't have the social media, but there was a lot of... It was obviously prior to 2001 prior to the global challenges we're facing now. We definitely incubated in a way on Mount St. James. And that because we weren't venturing out, that just made the bonds of friendship even deeper and I think more transformative. Carolyn: Those are the things I remember, and I also remember, the intimidation for me was the classroom because I have to work hard on my academics. That's where I felt, as you were talking that sort of a little bit of, will I fit in, in the classroom? But I think you know, I was an English major and I felt like talk about an abundance of blessings of professors and classes and conversations. Jamie: Yeah, I think when you learn as much outside the classroom, as you do inside the classroom, I find that at Holy Cross. And I think that's something that's stayed consistent, which I think is a good thing across generations. Question for you, where did you live your freshman year? Carolyn: Freshman year I lived in Carlin. Jamie: Oh, Carlin. Wow. That was an upper class residence hall when I was there. They let the first years live there. Carolyn: They let all freshmen in and I lived over the bridge, so we had the window over the bridge. So when the classes changed, you got to see everybody. And then I went to Wheeler for two years and then Caro Street, my senior year much later. Jamie: What floor on Wheeler did you live on? Carolyn: Fifth floor. Oh goodness. My friends are going to be like, "She can't remember." I think it was second floor, sophomore year, fifth floor, junior, and then Caro street, which was a health department abomination. That house was like, we were all jammed in there and yeah. That's another thing that we'll just keep off the record. Jamie: That's another podcast, as I said. Carolyn: Those safety protocols were probably not adhered to. Jamie: I was a Wheeler three guy for two years, my freshman year, my sophomore year. And it was an experience living in Wheeler, that's for sure. Carolyn: Wheeler Beach. Jamie: But I loved it. Carolyn: Right? Jamie: Wheeler Beach. Wheeler Beach. And- Carolyn: Those were the days. Jamie: I still am, as you've mentioned, it's amazing how those bonds can last throughout the years, the bonds you make. And blow do you know when you first drive up to up the up Mount St. James, how it's going to change your life, but- Carolyn: And that's one of the things I remember meeting you the first time I met you. All you have to hear is Holy Cross and I'm like, "I know I'm going to love him." It just comes with that built-in comfort level and excitement. Jamie: Exactly right. Obviously, beyond the classroom, what type of extra extracurricular activities were you involved in when you were at Holy Cross? Carolyn: I wish I could say a ton, but... Because of my focus on academics, that took a lot of my time, but I was work study and I also did student government. And I worked at the library, which I loved. For me, I worked in the... Oh, I can't remember the name of the room, but it's where you had a sign out so that- Jamie: Oh sure. Carolyn: I can't remember what they called it. Jamie: The reserve room, but I don't that- Carolyn: The reserve room, that's right. That was where I was, so that's where I spent a lot of my time, was in the reserve room. And I love that because you got to see everybody, so it was social, and I also got to do homework. But our crew, we were very enthusiastic sports fans. We loved all the sports. A lot of our friends played football, hockey, basketball, baseball. That was a big part of our time. Carolyn: So road trips , stole my father's car once. That was a mistake. I went to William and Mary, and then of course somebody is like, "Hey, I saw your car in Virginia." So I was given up, that wasn't... I got to remember HC52. Jamie: That HC52 license plate does not come in handy. Carolyn: Yes, that's when it doesn't... "darn It, I thought I'd get away with that," but no, I didn't. I also did internships, which I always, when I talk to prospective students and I think everybody knows this now, it's again, not novel advice, but that was enormously helpful for me. I was an English major and when I was at Holy Cross, I wanted to go into sports marketing, and so I did marketing internships, and those were extraordinarily helpful for me. Carolyn: I didn't end up going into marketing, but those skills helped me in my current job Jamie: Where did you intern? Do you- Carolyn: I interned at a hospital, St. Elizabeth. Jamie: St. Elizabeth? Carolyn: Is that right? Jamie: Yeah, it's there. Yeah, it's still there. That's good. That's good. Carolyn: Was great. They were very kind to me. Jamie: What was your favorite class at Holy Cross? Carolyn: Oh, goodness- Jamie: If you can pick one, it's a hard question. It's like saying, who's your favorite sibling? I don't want you to answer that question, but- Carolyn: I know, all of them. One of the things that I'm known for is my terrible memory, but I know the class, I'm not going to remember the professor. But the class was a seminar on Martin Luther King and it was incredible. It was maybe 15 people in the class and it was probably my best class for sure. Jamie: What made it incredible? Carolyn: Well, I love the size of it and it was the students. No disrespect to the professor. Obviously I can't remember his name, which is terrible, but the students in the class, it was... I was an English major, so it was a bunch of students I didn't know and they were from different grade levels as well. For me, the diversity of opinion in that class was very rich because there wasn't a tremendous... when I was at Holy Cross, it wasn't tremendously diverse. Carolyn: That was a class where there was a lot of diversity in many ways, and including racial and ideological, and lived experiences. And so for me, it was more of an awakening as opposed to other classes. And I loved all of my English classes because I love literature, I love to write, but just in terms of getting me to think in new ways, that class was formative. And Dr. King is such an abiding figure in my life in terms of his philosophy and his teachings, and it really started there at Holy Cross in that class. Jamie: That's powerful. That's a great. I want to fast forward a little bit now and start talking about your post Holy Cross life, if you will. Carolyn: Sure. Jamie: Obviously we want to talk a lot about Project 351, which you're the founder and executive director of. But give us a little snapshot of what your first few years were after Holy Cross. I know you had some interesting jobs pre Project 351, so tell us a little bit about them. Carolyn: My first job right out of Holy Cross was I was a hostess at a restaurant because I couldn't make the cut as a waitress, so that goes to show. But I was- Jamie: Because your warm, charming personality, they wanted you to do the hostess. Carolyn: Yes. Well, they gave me one shot as a waitress and I dropped a tray of drinks on a bald man's head and I was, I was redistributed back to the hostess stand. Jamie: At least you don't have to wipe off his hair- Carolyn: No... Jamie: ... just wipe his head off, it's easy. Carolyn: Of course I started crying right away. But I was liberated by another Holy Cross grad. My cousin Maura Donlan from West Roxbury, also class of '87 who is like my sister. We're the same age, and she was working for Governor Dukakis, his presidential campaign in New Hampshire in the field. I went up for a weekend of canvassing and I'd never really done anything quite like that. It was one of these, they had me at hello. It was completely transformative. Carolyn: And I came home and my parents for some reason were in Europe or something, which would be rare. And I told them I wanted to quit my very important hostess job and move to New Hampshire and worked for Mike Dukakis. And thankfully they said, yes. That was the beginning of the path of service that I've been on ever since around public service and around mission-based organizations or campaigns. Carolyn: But I was really fortunate, I worked up in New Hampshire, and I was like 22 or whatever and I was the deputy to the state director, Charlie Baker. Not governor Baker, but the other Charlie Baker. Jamie: No, very well. Dewey Square Group Charlie Baker, yeah. Carolyn: Dewey Square Group. And his dad, Charlie Baker was a professor at Holy Cross. Jamie: Exactly right. French professor, I think. Carolyn: Yeah. French in like movies. Did he do something on movies too? Jamie: Yeah. No, Charlie is a wonderful person. Carolyn: Yes. You know how lucky I was to work for him and John Geezer, who you probably know well. Jamie: Sure. Carolyn: And so I got to work for Charlie all the way through the general election, and that was just in his philosophy was, everywhere I go, you go. And so I'd be in the room with Jesse Jackson and the negotiations. And I was for the nomination, and down in Atlanta, and I just did my best to soak it all up, and to be as... I remember thinking that then, as I was in the job was around trying to... I wasn't a political animal, so I didn't really have great scale on the politics side. Carolyn: And so my focus was on being kind and responsive. I just wanted to, how can I help as many people and try to prove myself that way, because I wasn't going to be the policy work. And from that ended up... Of course governor lost and I went to... So I moved to D.C. and I worked for the democratic Senate campaign committee, and that's a whole bunch of wild and crazy stories about... Not wild and crazy, but in that I can't believe that I had this job at age 23 where I was doing at the time, it was their major funding program. Carolyn: So I set up weekends that donors would go to with like eight or nine senators and their spouses. And then it would be me on the plane with like George Mitchell and- Jamie: Wow. Carolyn: Wyche Fowler, and John Kerry and they listen to me. I was giving them a brief and the this and the that, and we would do a weekend of like policy retreats. That was incredibly inspirational, informative and real insight on how relational politics works. Jamie: And I would take away two things just to jump in here for a second. One, this path that you were sent on, that you started down, began through your relationship with Maura Donlan, your cousin, but also a fellow Holy Cross Crusader. And so it's again the power of the Holy Cross network to open up opportunities for the students or recent grads. But I would say something, I just want you to comment on one thing too, is you said something that caught my attention that... You said you don't have the political skills necessarily that are... you don't have the political experience, but you said you wanted to focus on being kind and responsive. Jamie: And I would argue with you and say that those are extremely important political skills, especially in our day and age. I think being kind and responsive to people's needs are two skills that a lot of people in politics lack today. Not to go off in a different direction with this discussion, but I would just say that I think you're a perfectly suited for politics because of those two skills of being both kind and responsive to people. And so I just wanted to make that point. Carolyn: Right back at you because you're a model of that. When I think about Holy Cross throughout my life and my professional and personal life, one of the things about if it's... there's sort of a built-in confidence if it's a Holy Cross person asking you to do something, inviting you just have a... For me, I'm more likely to take that leap of faith because it's somebody who I... There's that bond, and that trust, and that sense of shared values. Jamie: Sure. I just want to talk briefly before we get to the important work that you're doing at Project 351, and I want to hear all about it obviously. You worked in Timberland for a little while and did social responsibility? Carolyn: Corporate social responsibility, yeah. Jamie: How was that? How was working in the private sector? Carolyn: It was incredible. One thing I'd say, that there's sort of one theme from my career path would be that I was really very lucky in that I worked for a lot of visionaries, and so people who were very bold about the kind of either organization or world that they wanted to build, and would be sort of relentless in pursuit. And not relentless in like a criminal way or mean way, but in terms of relentless about galvanizing the resources to enable that vision. Carolyn: After I left D.C., I worked at city year for eight years, and the co-founders Michael Brown and Alan Khazei who had this bold vision of building a national service movement and started with 50 young people in Boston. And today, millions of young people have served through AmeriCorps, which- Jamie: Amazing. Carolyn: ... City Year the model for. And through city Year, while I was at City Year. And I was there in the early days, so people who do nonprofit work who might be listening to this know that in the nonprofit sector, you often have like 12 jobs and a lot of them don't relate. And so I was... President Clinton was the president at the time and I was responsible for media, our national convention fundraising, the Clinton relationship and managing the Timberland partnership and new site development. It was like this crazy mosaic of things. Carolyn: And from the relationship managing the partnership with Timberland, Jeff Swartz was the CEO of Timberland, invited me to come to work for him and to help direct corporate social responsibility. Jeff is a person that I always I wanted him to speak at Holy Cross, because his leadership is driven by faith, his deep faith as a Jewish person. And he grew over the time that I worked for him a comfort level and talking about that in the business space, which was fairly rare at the time. Carolyn: But he was also incredibly visionary, and bold and courageous around pushing the edge of the envelope around the role and the responsibility of the private sector as a catalyst for social justice. This is like 25 years ago and there... I still see things now from companies and they regard them as breakthroughs, I'm like, "Jeff was..." I don't mean this in a dismissive way at all- Jamie: No, no. Carolyn: ... but Jeff was doing this like 30 years ago. If you worked at Timberland, you had 40 hours of paid time for volunteerism, a full week to donate to community. And the entire business model and operating systems were built around the notion that commerce and justice are inextricably linked. And so when we're thinking about manufacturing our boots, where we're manufacturing them? How are we giving back to those workers in that community? What materials are we using to make sure we're not despoiling the planet? Carolyn: How can those boots be a lever for change through a consumer point of sale that invites them to come serve with us? Jamie: Wow. Carolyn: So it was this very creative time to be able to work for somebody like that, who, when you would have like crazy ideas, he wouldn't say they were crazy. He'd say, "Yeah. Let's try it." Jamie: That's a sign of a good leader. Carolyn: Yes. My time there, many, many, many gifts, including my relationship with Jeff, who is a teacher and a mentor and like a brother to me. But the other thing that came out of my time there was a friendship with Congressman John Lewis, which transformative. I love how Jon Meacham talks about John Lewis as a saint, as an American saint. I'd never heard of him referred to him that way, but Jon Meacham puts him within the context of faith, and holiness, and- Jamie: The beloved community. Carolyn: And the beloved community. And that John Lewis' ability to endure what he endured throughout his life, including 45 arrests, and a fractured skull, and multiple beatings, and humiliations that no human should ever have to endure was a deep faith in God. Jamie: And after all that, still having a faith in people too. After all those experiences that he suffered through, to still have faith and hope in the human spirit, it was remarkable. Have you read Jon Meacham's new book about- Carolyn: I'm reading it right now. Jamie: I finished it last week. What a powerful... I was in tears. At some part of the book, I was laughing, at other parts and I just think it's such a powerful life. I had the opportunity to meet him once, John Lewis, once when I was waiting for an elevator on Capitol Hill and the elevator was for members of Congress only. But he said, "Oh, come on, ride with me. You can ride with me." He asked me where I was from, who I worked for, Jim McGovern at the time. And he was just the nicest man. The only thing is he got off the elevator before I did. Carolyn: Oh no. Jamie: I still had two floors to go and other members of Congress got on and they were looking at me like- Carolyn: They were like, "Who's this guy?" Jamie: ... why are you on our elevator? I said, John Lewis let us to be on. John Lewis let me on, and they believed it. They didn't second guess me, because I guess it was a typical practice of John Lewis to invite people on the members-only elevator. Carolyn: Yeah. He was pied-piper for sure. But learned so much from him and just... Such perspective that any sort of hardship or challenge that I would ever face either personally or professionally, whatever, I would always draw on his, keep the faith, keep moving. I remember one time I was going through really hard time personally and I was talking to him and he said to me... I said, "What do you do when you feel like there's hate coming at you?" And he said, "You go at hate with love, and then more love, and then more love, and then more love." Carolyn: And I was like, "Okay, I got it." Jamie: Yeah. And those were certainly not just words to him. That's the way lived- Carolyn: No. Jamie: ... words in action, so to speak. Well, it's remarkable that you got to know him. We'll have to talk more about that at some point, because I think he's one of my heroes, and I think he should be one of everyone's heroes because of the life he led. But I want to move on here too and- Carolyn: Sure. Jamie: ... I have a question about your gap year. Carolyn: Yes, the gap year. Jamie: Gap year, it wasn't a... People think of gap years typically is years right after high school, between high school and college or maybe the year after college. But your gap year was a few years after, after having some work experience. Right? So tell us a little bit what you did. I think some of the stories are remarkable from what I've heard already, but why you took the gap year. Carolyn: It was after my Timberland tenure and I decided to drive across the country from California to Savannah, Georgia and do service in civil rights history. My motivation for doing it was, I'd been on this durable wheel, whatever that is, hamster wheel, for about two decades and working. Working for Jeff was amazing, but it was 24/7 and then City Year was the same way because we were trying to build City Year, the institution, and it was just sort of non-stop. Carolyn: And, and then I know you know my sister-in-law who's class of '90 was killed- Neilie Casey, who's another love and incredibly important person in my life. She was killed on September 11th, and that experience, and that tragedy, and the emotion. And so I was really burnt, I was really fried. And I had been doing commerce and justice and service with Timberland and at a global level, and so traveling to South Africa, and Prague, and Italy and all across the United States with John Lewis doing service, and it was amazing. Carolyn: But I wanted to get back to the essence of service, so without the corporate funding behind me, which was great to have a budget actually going into community and really do one-on-one with people who were on the frontline of some of our country's most critical issues. And so these are all people who no one would know their name. They were running a domestic violence shelter in Birmingham, Alabama, or working on native American health in Chinle, Arizona. Carolyn: I did four days with a bunch of Vietnam vets, building a home after Katrina, it was still in the aftermath of Katrina in Mississippi. Serving the City Year core members in LA, which was incredible, but also very depressing because these children had nowhere near the educational resources that they needed to learn and to succeed. And this was pre smartphone. I think we had cell phones or blackberries or something. Jamie: Flip phones. Carolyn: Yeah. And so I was able to... It was quiet and there was only one time where my sister, thank goodness came out early on in my journey because she's a surgeon and extraordinary. She came with me to Chinle, Arizona because we... My service partner there was the John Hopkins Center for Native American Health. And she was very interested in it from her perspective and she knew that I needed her. Carolyn: So she came out and we did that and we did the Grand Canyon. So, that was also a bonus. But that trip, it was incredible on so many levels. The opportunity to serve and be humbled by the example of people who are truly, people talk about this all the time, like unsung heroes and this. These are the truest unsung heroes who are working day in and out to feed families or provide compassion for seniors or protect women from domestic violence and to bear witness. Carolyn: Billy Shore, who's one of my heroes and mentors who's the founder of Share Our Strength. Billy always talks about the importance of bearing witness, and to bear witness and to listen and learn and to just be quiet. To be in a space of reflection. And then I get in my car and then I would drive like 10 hours or whatever. Going through Western Texas was scary because I lost my cell and you had like for eight hours, no gas station. Carolyn: They're like, "Fill up here or you're not going to make it." And so you just have that quiet to sit and reflect. That's where the spark for Project 351 started to come, but it was... And not to sound overly hokey or, I don't know, silly in any way, sentimental in any way. But just for me was just this deep sense of gratitude for this country and just how diverse... Now even more, now it's polarized. Carolyn: Then it was diverse and not so polarized. Now it's diverse and so polarized. But I remember every interaction was a lesson in humility and a lesson in grace, and that these people from every background you could imagine who were doing things driven only by devotion to cause greater than self, and that the character of the American people. And I remember just... Certainly, our family was very blessed and changed by the extraordinary, and Holy Cross being one of the most extraordinary sources of love and comfort and care after 9/11. Carolyn: And how important it is to access that through memory when we are in times like this, that feels so divisive, that what this country stands for is not what we're witnessing on the television. Jamie: There are people out there doing God's work, if you will, and doing it quietly, but doing it so well and making a difference in people's lives. One life at a time. But you multiply that in the aggregate and there are a lot of lives being touched out there by a lot of people. And so including you, I would argue, I would say, without a doubt- Carolyn: With your help, Jamie. With your help. Jamie: Well, let's transition I know to Project 351, because obviously, that is close to my heart. Obviously, a part of your heart, this is your heart. Tell us a little bit about Project 351. And I want to hear its origin story, if you will, as they say in superhero movies these days. The origin story of Project 351. Carolyn: I want to make sure, because I'll forget is to say upfront one, how grateful I am to Holy Cross the institution, the civic space because of you, Jamie and Elizabeth Rice and so many wonderful people at Holy Cross. Holy Cross is a little bit of Project 351 West because we have our educator advisory group meetings there, we have alumni summits there and I love it. I love every time I can bring my alum on campus and tell them that they all should go to Holy Cross. Carolyn: But I always tell them, "We are very intentional about everything we do at Project 351." So we convene in places of meaning, and that Holy Cross is devoted to developing men and women for others. And so that's why we meet there. Because we can meet anywhere in Worcester, but we meet there because of that ethos. Jamie: It's our honor to have you there for sure. Carolyn: Then the broader gratitude to all of the Holy Cross alums specifically and the class of 1987, my best friends, Jen White, and Julie Foley, and so many friends who have... Frannie and Danny and everybody who have believed in Project 351 and encouraged, and have volunteered. I just feel really lucky shout out also to Ellie and Michael Hall, our other family members, Jamie: The San Francisco wing of Project- Carolyn: Yes, of Holy Cross. Exactly. The origin story is, it's one of these things where the path is so unclear what the origin story is, it's sort of one. But the way I always think of it is that, and I think most people probably would have a similar is that, Project 351 is a mosaic and every one of those beautiful cuts of glass is a gift that someone has given me along the way. Whether it's John Lewis whose passion for the beloved community and insistence on leading with love. Carolyn: If Jeff Swartz who's courage and bold vision around creating cross sector collaboration and social change. Michael and Alan and my partner at Project 351, and my third brother, Charlie Rose, from City Year whose fierce belief in young people as a catalyst for transformative change. And then there's a million pieces of glass that I picked up all over Mount St. James. So those are the lessons of faith, and those are the lessons of partnership, and respect, and inquiry and reflection. Carolyn: The philosophy around Project 351 comes from all of those lessons, but the reality of Project 351 comes from, it was the first Baker Patrick contest. Right? I think, the first one? Jamie: Yeah, 2010. Carolyn: 2010, yes. And there were two other candidates, right? Jill, Stein? Jamie: Jill Stein, yeah, yeah. Carolyn: And I'm forgetting the independent. So there were four candidates running in a state small like Massachusetts and governor Patrick and Charlie Baker, and Charlie Baker, I'd known, he was a friend of mine for, at that point like, I don't know, 15 years. And that campaign was, you'll recall because you were probably in the middle of it. It was an unkind campaign, shall we say? Carolyn: And I remember thinking as someone who just loves Massachusetts and loves the quaintness of it that we're so small and thinking, wow, this division, first of all, we have four candidates, and then it's a race that's divisive. It's kind of mean, which felt not that things are like hunky dory in Massachusetts politics, but it felt a little bit out of kilter. And I remember thinking like, well, how do you bring the state together again after a time like this? I'm thinking, well, through service and through young people. Carolyn: We're small enough to do it. You're not an eighth-grader from each one of the 351 cities and towns, but we're big enough where it feels bold. Where it's like, how the heck are you going to get one eighth-grader from every city and town? That prompted me. It was really around, how can service be a unifier and remind us that we have more in common than what makes us different? Governor Patrick would always talk about turning towards one another, not against one another. Carolyn: And and I didn't know him. I'm a Democrat, but I had never engaged with him. I supported him, but I didn't know him. And a mutual friend of ours, David O'Brien- Jamie: Exactly. There you go. Carolyn: ... was the head of his campaign inaugural and reached out to me. And he said, "You're like my service community person and the governor wants to focus on service and community. Any thoughts?" And I was like, "Well, actually, yeah. I have this concept paper called Project 351." And I sent it over and they presented it with options to the governor and the governor said, "I want to do this." It's not that exciting, but that's- Jamie: Wow. No, it's powerful. Carolyn: That's how it happened. But it was conceived as a one-day event. This happened very quickly. It was end of November, the inaugural was middle of January and I started calling superintendents in the first week of December saying, "How you don't know me, but we would like an eighth-grade unsung hero from your school district." And they're like, "We're about to go on Christmas break and you can call us back in January." Carolyn: And as it is in all things, there's always one person. And so Tom Scott who's executive director of the Massachusetts Association of School Superintendents said yes, I was calling the first yes. And because of Tom and a lot of amazing people, we were able to assemble, you were probably there, a class of celebratory event called Project 351 that was really, and nothing to do with me, everything to do with Governor Patrick and the young people. Carolyn: But it was a celebration of Dr. King and it was these young people, literally from 351 cities and towns, including Nantucket, and Martha's Vineyard, and Provincetown, and North Adams. Those young people getting up at 4:00 in the morning to get on a bus to get... And it's so amazing because the bus, not only the bus routes, but the bus captains from that first go are still the same today. Jamie: They're still involved today. Wow. Carolyn: Yep. Jamie: That speaks to the organization. Carolyn: And it speaks to how amazing educators are too. Right? Jamie: Yeah. Absolutely. Carolyn: But we figured out then how the heck to get young people in and out safely and programmatically, in and out in one day. And then the day itself was highly programmatic, celebration of Dr. King, transformational service across Boston, reflection and celebration at the end of the day. And the cool thing about Project 351 that you know and that everyone who's listening is welcome to come is, in the morning, you can't hear a sound, they're petrified. Carolyn: They're eighth grade, 12 years old or 13 years old. They're the only person from their town. They were selected, you don't apply, and so you are a quiet leader, so by nature, you're quiet. And they come into Faneuil Hall in the morning and you could hear a pin drop until Charlie gets them going on the building. And at the end of the day, they have found their voice, they have found their tribe. Carolyn: Some of them have found the love of their life, they think and their best friends. And the noise at the end of the day is like the symphony of service and idealism and it's at like fever pitch. It's so- Jamie: That is so true. That is so true. I've noticed that before. It's more than just the fact that they're early in the morning. I think the nerves are real in the morning, but they've become such a community by the course of the day that it is just wonderful to see. And they see their personalities come out, their spirits come out, and it's just really heartwarming to see. Carolyn: And to make sure for all the listeners, the kind listeners if you're still listening is, the very important role that Jamie has played as champion, and advisor, and friend. And also is the chairperson of the selection committee, our most highest award at Project 351, which is a $20,000 scholarship named after Myra Kraft, who those at Holy Cross know there's a deep relationship between Myra Hiatt Kraft's family, and Holy Cross. Right? Jamie: Absolutely. Carolyn: So all roads lead to Holy Cross. Jamie: Yeah. The wings of the library are the Hiatt wings- Carolyn: The Hiatt wings. Jamie: ... named after her family. So you have this launch day then you also have a reunion day. So tell us about reunion day. Carolyn: Well, the one thing I'll tell you about the first original launch day is that at the end of the day... How do we go from a one-day event to a program? At the end of the day, the young people were standing up, and a lot of them were crying. It was very, very emotional. A lot of the educators were crying and the young people kept standing up. And the governor who you know better than me is magical with young people. Carolyn: So he was in this community discussion and a beautiful discussion. And they would stand up and say, "No one's ever called me a leader before," and all these things. But a number of them set up and they said, "Okay, so now what? You called me to serve, and now what?" The governor was on a microphone and I was way in the back of the room. He's like, "Where's Carolyn?" On microphone. I'm like, "I'm here." Carolyn: And he said, "This keeps going, right?" And I was like, "I don't know." I'm like, "Yeah, I guess." Then that night, we created a Facebook page and that's how we started. Every bit of advice I ever gave to her nonprofit when I was at Timberland like do a market scan, build a board, raise the money, do a strategy, blah, blah, blah. No. Jamie: No? Carolyn: All of that went right out the door. I was building programs under me. And sometimes I feel like we never caught up, but from that moment. But so fast forward now, we're 10 years old, a decade. And now we are a youth-led movement for social change. There are 3,753 eighth-graders have embraced the obligation to serve through Project 351. And it's awe call it the ambassador journey, so it's a 12-month ambassador journey. Carolyn: And they're still selected, can't apply. Still unsung hero, quiet leader. And it is a year of developing their courage, and their compassion, and their capabilities to lead change. And we do that in very intentional ways through milestones throughout the year that are both enrichment-based, and also hands-on civic leadership and service leadership. I can talk about those, but I don't want to go on too long. Jamie: I think, I'm curious to hear from you what your thoughts are and what inspires these young leaders? What inspires them to serve at such a young age especially? Carolyn: One of my probably overused words when it comes to Project 351, there are two probably remarkable and extraordinary, because I run out of words for our young people and they are both... they're remarkable and extraordinary. And I think anybody listening who has children, nieces, nephews know that young people have innate goodness and hopefully for as long as possible, no judgment. And so bias or prejudice, we all know that that's taught, right? And so- Jamie: Yeah absolutely. Carolyn: And they are unfortunately increasingly sophisticated because of the world that we live in, but there's also when we were intentional about picking eighth-graders, because again, wanted them to be sort of young enough to feel as if this was an honor, that spending time with the governor. Now it's not Governor Patrick, it's Governor Baker. That felt like a big deal, not a cynical response to that, but that they're old enough as eighth-graders to be able to grow into the role of change agent and to understand nuances around the issues of hunger and the intersectionality between race and homelessness. Carolyn: What motivates them is probably motivates you and me, Jamie, is that injustice, and lack of opportunity, and a planet that's burning, and the gap in educational opportunities. Our young people are so motivated by the challenges of other young people. That is causes deep pain for them, in their reflections when they write, when they learn about... One of our partners is the only youth-led youth homeless shelter in the state, why to, Y2Y, you might know them. Jamie: Yeah, I do. Carolyn: And just that reality that there's a youth homeless shelter for our young people, they have to reflect and process that. But the other thing that's really important is, it's one person from every city and town, and so you know Fall River and I know Taunton, right? Jamie: Yeah. Carolyn: We know Brockton, you think about these rural communities. We are blessed in the state where we have communities of extraordinary wealth and we have communities of extraordinary poverty. And so our young people are from those communities, so we've young people who have parents who have extraordinary wealth and young people who... We've had young people who are homeless. Carolyn: We have one young woman who stood up at the end of last year's launch day and said, crying because she said, "I've never been..." How the day made her feel so special and that she and her mom had slept in a car the night before because they had no place to go. Right now we're preparing, potentially with the help of Jim McGovern to kick off our efforts on hunger for our next service campaign. So many of our young people are going to be serving food pantries that serve their family. Carolyn: I remember distinctly, one of my young women writing in her reflections after service about, it was one of her proudest moments. She brought her grandmother shopping. She put in air quotes at the food pantry, and he said, "And my grandmother was taking cans off the shelf that I had placed the day before- Jamie: Wow. Carolyn: ... from the donations I had collected." And she said, "And it made me so proud that- Jamie: Wow. Carolyn: ... I was helping my grandma, but I was also helping all these other families." Jamie: Wow, how powerful? For eighth-graders. It's amazing. Carolyn: It is amazing. And then the other is that on the other end of the spectrum, you have these young people who know that they're from families of good fortune, but have such sensitivity and then struggle. Every year on launch day, you may recall this, that we always have a couple of young people who stand up and have a tremendous sense of guilt- Jamie: Yes. Carolyn: ... because their family has resources. Governor Patrick would always say... and he was always so compassionate and he would always go right over to the young person and put his hand on their shoulder and say, "I hear you. I hear you and I understand what you're saying, but it's a good thing that you're blessed. It's a good thing that you're blessed. But your reaction shouldn't be guilt, your reaction should be generosity, engagement, compassion. And that's what you're doing right now." Carolyn: He had four classes of ambassadors every year, it was an experience at that because there was always one young person who would say, "I was at Cradles to Crayons, we ran out of socks and this morning going from my bed to the shower, I stepped over like 100 pairs of socks and I feel so guilty that I don't respect my socks." So it's that awakening and empowering across all demographics and backgrounds and life experiences. That's what Dr. King tells us, right? Everybody can be great. Right? Jamie: Exactly right. Everyone can learn from each other, learn from each other lived experiences and share your lived experiences with one another. That's one of the many powerful things about Project 351, and that exposure that these young men and women get. One question I would have, I always might have ask you this. These students, the young men and women, these young leaders are facing a lot of challenges in their lives. Jamie: Whether it be hunger or whether it be what's going on in the world, how have those changed over the past 10 years since the Project 351 was first founded? Have their lives gotten more complicated or have things stayed the same? I'm just curious about their lived experience, because you're keeping up with the world through their eyes, and you're helping them deal with the, not the outside world, it's the real world, I don't know how to describe it, but. And how has that affected Project 351 and these young, remarkable men and women? Carolyn: There has been a stark change in the last four years of what our young people are dealing with, and right now is very intense. Mental health challenges for young people, especially at this age group, so middle school are spiking. They're spiking and then COVID has made it worse. Social isolation, the fact that they aren't able to be with their friends and socialize. But we have had in the last, really the last three years, a lot of very deep and painful conversations around identity. Carolyn: Either because of their race, or gender, or gender identity, or who they love, and those young people feeling under attack and how that affects them and their self-confidence and self self-worth. The last probably six months have been... I will say there is a difference between our ambassadors in eighth grade and then our alumni leadership council, which you know is our governance body and they are the mentors to the eighth-graders. Carolyn: We put our eighth-graders for 12 months, they're 45 teams, geographically diverse to build those relationships that we talked about across all metrics of demographics. And those are named after service heroes, so John Lewis, Malala, Mandela, we have a Governor Patrick team, a Governor... Team, Devin McCourty team. So people who we consider service heroes and those are led by a high school alum, who's trained to be a mentor and team leader for 12 months. Carolyn: Our high school and college alumni are very... there's activism and it's across the political spectrum and across the causes right now that are very dominant, Black Lives Matter, Blue Lives Matter, so within our community. Of course, it's a microcosm of the world and a microcosm of Massachusetts. We have those perspectives and work to... What we are trying to do is trying to model and teach how to respect... how to have empathy, first of all, and respect for the dignity of all. Carolyn: And how to be an active and engaged listener where you may not leave a conversation condensed, but that you have been respectful and maybe you've learned something. It might not be enough to convince you in another direction, but the idea... So we're doing work on that now, how can we be more directive and deliberative around teaching collaborative leadership models and skill around communication. Carolyn: So civic dialogue, how do you do that in an authentic way, but in a way that respects the opinions of all? Jamie: That's so important. And you've mentioned this word a couple of times, empathy, teaching them empathy. To put themselves into other people's shoes and understand that we all come to the table with our own backgrounds, and our own perspectives, and how to listen and learn. Doesn't mean sacrificing and giving up what you believe in, but it actually, I think you grow in your own understanding of your own beliefs by listening to others and learning from others. Carolyn: Absolutely. Jamie: And I think that's a powerful thing. And Project 351 represents that because it was started by a Democratic governor and now very much supported by the current governor, Charlie Baker, who's a big supporter- Carolyn: Huge. Jamie: ... and he's always at launch day. Carolyn: Lauren. Jamie: And first lady Lauren is a force. It's one example how they can... I know you've made that point before that it's a bipartisan organization in that way that it started by Democrat and has continued and supported by a Republican. I think- Carolyn: I think ... sorry. Jamie: No, no. Go ahead. Carolyn: No, I was going to say, I think one of the things that feels just more and more important to starting Project 351, part of it is, it's marveled at the fact that if you just deeply believe in young people and are consistent in that messaging, where it's like I always tell... We have a very small team, but I always tell our team, I'm like, "I want Project 351 to be the source of affirmation only, like we believe you can do it," and constant, every day. Carolyn: And because then they believe it and they do, but you need to... One, you need the affirmation, two, they need the platform, then they need the tools, and then they need the microphone. Right? Jamie: Yeah. Carolyn: So their voice. That combination is also important right now, which is to say, because one of the things I fear is this just escalating violence as we get closer to the election, it terrifies me. I'm 54 years old, so I being the young person at this time, how terrified they must be or scared maybe. So how do we model and teach, create that form, create that affirmation, give them the tools and the platform, hand them the microphone, but in a way that is about, like you said, empathy, that is about inclusion. That's about deescalation around these issues that are polarizing, so that they can... Carolyn: And that's one of the things, I just did the end of week email to them. And I was closing it by saying that these are challenging times, but we have the opportunity to demonstrate when we serve and when we lead with compassion, that love wins and that you can unite through empathy and compassion. And how proud I am of them for continuing to do that work during these challenging times. And that adults are paying attention to them, those eighth-graders and those high school students. Jamie: That's right. Well, I have to say, one thing that being involved in this organization has given me is hope. Hope in the future, not only because of the young leaders and obviously definitely because of them, but also because of you and because of the people who are involved in the Project 351 family. People who show up just to volunteer for one of the events or serve as a bus captains who are just there. The adults in the room, so to speak, who are inspired and are inspiring is what I would say. Jamie: I think they also serve as an example, and in this day and age, I think we all could use a little hope. So thank you, Carolyn, appreciate it very much. Tell people how they can learn more about Project 351. Carolyn: Sure. You're the best. Before I do that, I want to just make sure one group that I didn't recognize, which is so important, because it's full circle coming back to my dad and mom is Project 351 would be impossible without our educators. Jamie: Yes. Carolyn: And I know that so many graduates of Holy Cross are either teachers or in the education field. Little shout out to my friend, Danielle who's an educator and others out there who are educators, and especially now with COVID what those professionals have been managing and experiencing and doing what they can to ensure that children are educated during this time remote or otherwise. Carolyn: I would be remiss if I didn't, because ours is a school-based model, partnering with schools to build social and emotional learning skills. And we're very outcomes-based, which is a little more wonky to get into, but an important part of what we're trying to do is trying to be a solution provider for school districts who are looking to build character, education, civic, engagement, social, and emotional learning and to build unity around diverse communities. Carolyn: And so I just want to make sure I appreciate all the educators and certainly my parents who were educators and extraordinary teachers and my siblings who aren't educators, but teach me every day still. Jamie: Thank you. Carolyn: Oh, how can they find out. You can come visit Project 351. We are www.project351.org and we welcome... Obviously with COVID, we're doing everything virtual, we're sort of... but one thing in terms of hope, you would think that the environment our young people are in and COVID, social distancing, and our engagement, our service impact has gone up. Jamie: Really? Carolyn: We're doing 9/11 tribute service which honors and remembers through service our largest in history. Our spring service with like 514 projects. Young people are looking to make a difference, they're looking for meaning, they're looking for connection. They want to be part of building the beloved community and creating opportunity for their neighbors. And if you want to be a part, we're a .org. Normally we have volunteer opportunities on launch day and reunion, and hopefully we'll get back to that in 2021. Carolyn: We're always grateful if anybody wants to support us financially because we're a small organization, but we leverage every dollar because we have this extraordinary volunteer army across the state. And so, grateful for the time, grateful to Maura for inviting me to be part of this, and to you, Jamie who's somebody that we hold up at Project 351 as leader, and friend, and role model and you made this so easy. I was so nervous and... Jamie: I really appreciate all you do, and I appreciate who you are, and I appreciate all your contributions. It really is comforting to know that there are people like you out there and there's a future generation who we're putting a lot on their shoulders to be sure, but I think they can carry it. I think they can carry it. And it gives me comfort to hear that, but thank you. This has been a lovely conversation. Carolyn: Thank you, and thank you to... If anyone listening, we just say thank you for sharing time with Jamie and me. Jamie: Thank you. Maura: That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be people for and with others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, then please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host Maura Sweeney and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, now go forth and set the world on fire. Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

In this episode, Jordyn Shubrick '22 interviews Ambassador Harry Thomas '78. In their conversation, they talk about Harry's career, reflecting on some of the most memorable moments from his days serving as the US Ambassador. Their conversation showcases the enduring impact that friendships forged at Holy Cross can have on the world. Interview originally recorded on December 16, 2020.  Due to the ongoing effects of the pandemic, all interviews in season 2 are recorded remotely. --- Harry: And when you look at it representing your country, are you going to do the right thing? Easy to do the wrong thing, but are you going to do the right thing? Are you going to tell the truth? Are you going to represent our values of democracy, of free markets? Of very important freedom of speech and freedom of religion. The other thing that Jesuits I think are best at teaching us is to question authority. Don't take things for granted. Maura: Welcome to mission-driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, director of alumni career development at Holy Cross. I am delighted to welcome you to today's show. In this episode, we hear from Harry Thomas from the class of 1978. A member of the Holy Cross board of trustees, Harry served a long and successful career in the foreign service working in US embassies around the world before advancing through the ranks of the state department to serve as US ambassador to Bangladesh, the Philippines and Zimbabwe. A native of Harlem, Harry made his way to Holy Cross in search of a close knit community. Little did he know that his friendships from Holy Cross would continue to make an impact around the globe through his work in the foreign service. Despite all of his accomplishments, Harry is most proud of delivering the commencement address at Holy Cross in 2016. He's joined by Jordyn Shubrick from the class of 2022. In their conversation, they speak about their shared experiences as throwers on the Holy Cross track team. They also talk about Harry's career, reflecting on some of the most memorable moments from his days serving as the US ambassador. Their conversation showcases the enduring impact that friendships forged at Holy Cross can have on the world. Jordyn: Hello and welcome everyone. My name is Jordyn Shubrick, currently a junior at the college. And today I'm here with Mr. Harry Thomas class of 78. How are you, Harry? Harry: Hey, how are you Jordan? So good to see you. Jordyn: Yes. Nice seeing you too, along here on Zoom, but that's the price we pay for being in a virtual space, but all good things. Harry: Yes it is. Jordyn: Yeah. So just to kick things off, I love to hear the stories of why people chose Holy Cross. So why did you choose College of the Holy Cross? Harry: Well, I went to a large high school, 6,000 boys and two girls in New York city. And I did not thrive there. I thought it was too large so I was looking for a small college. And I visited Holy Cross during a Black Student Union weekend, met a lot of great people and felt that the environment would be perfect for me. And then I had to convince my parents. Jordyn: And how was that process of convincing your parents to go to Worcester, Massachusetts? Harry: Not easy. In fact, my father said, you know how it was, my father said, "No, you're not going. Too expensive." And that was it. And a couple of weeks later he said, "Yes, you can go." And it took many years before I found out that my mother had told him that he should let me go and they agreed. And it wasn't an easy decision because it cost them their life savings. Jordyn: Right. No, definitely. I think especially with Holy Cross being such a Jesuit school and all the values, but that price point is a lot. It is, it very much is, but I think it's so important to hear the stories of why people chose Holy Cross, because there's so many different unique experiences. But with that said, I know your time at Holy Cross you were an athlete. How was that being a student athlete on the Hill? Harry: Well, yes. I was on the track team. I threw the shot put in 35 pound weight, not as well as you, but I did have a few personal bests at Brown. It was good. A lot of people were into sports. We were very good in track and field and a lot of other sports. I also had a job working in Hogan and I look back on it and having so much time devoted to academics, athletics and working helped me focus. You couldn't afford to be too far behind. You had to keep up or you'll never catch up. And I definitely did not want to visit Father Fahey who was the Dean at that time and have to go home to my parents. That was a non-starter. Jordyn: Right, definitely. So I know you talked about having a job, but being an athlete and a student. How were you able to balance your time given that there is so much to do as a college student? You're growing into your own person, but... Harry: It was difficult. It really took, I would say into my third, fourth semesters to really learn how to do it, because as much as you say that you are disciplined, you're free for the first time. And you're interested in going to a lot of parties, hanging out with your friends and also keeping up with athletics, but also I had to work. And I had to because even though my parents paid, that meant they weren't giving me any spending money. So I wasn't on athletic scholarships so I had to work. So it was a lot and I was tired often and I did not initially utilize the weekends to study. I later learned that Saturday and Sunday mornings were a really good time to study, to write your papers and catch up, but I did not know that at the beginning. And it took time. Jordyn: Right. Definitely a big learning curve I would say. Everyone's faced with when they hit the Hill, then you got to learn how to navigate through that new space. But as you're talking, I wonder what was your biggest driver to push you both academically while you were on the Hill? Harry: Well fear. Fear of my parents, very honest. That I had to show them my transcript or whatever, I guess, report card every semester. There was no PII in those days, even if there were, I was going to have to show it to them. And they both were college graduates. In fact, my mother had a master's. So yes, my mother had a master's from NYU in social work. She had gone to Allen, HBCU undergraduate. My father went to Morris Brown after getting out of World War II. So that was extremely important in our family. And I had many members of my family I've come from a large family. My mother's one of eight, my daddy one of 10 and many in going to college and university, even grand uncles. My father's elder sister graduated from Claflin University in 1939 and a great uncle who graduated from Allen in 1916. Harry: So I was not the first. You couldn't pull a, this is so hard. So they're like, no, we did this. So that was extremely important. Luckily, even though I wasn't so fond of my high school. It was one of the three top academic high schools in New York city. So in terms of science, it was an engineering school. So sciences and math, I was really prepared. Even though I did well on the English part of the SAT and all that, in terms of learning how to write and write clearly and concisely and orally communicate, I really improved those skills through the rigors of the courses I took at the Cross. Jordyn: Right. Yeah, definitely. Holy Cross is reflection time, write papers, you have to be able to definitely be able to convey your ideas on both paper and as you speak. But as I'm starting to listen to you more and more, were there any mentors that helped you throughout your time at Holy Cross? I know you say your parents were a big influence as well. Is there any people that come to mind? Harry: So many. As they say, it takes a village and when I would go home, neighbors would give you $5, $10, a dollar and just encourage you. And that made you feel very good. Before we started at Holy Cross, Stan Grayson who is class of '72 had a bunch of us to his apartment in Manhattan. An apartment in Manhattan, I was impressed with that. How do I get one of these? But even from there on Stan was one of my closest friends and he was the groomsman in my wedding. Was able to assist me whenever I needed. There wasn't instant communications in those days. You had to call somebody which you had to pay for or writing letters as we did. But this, all we do so it was okay. But also, I remember Clarence Thomas coming to campus and talking to the Black Student Union about how we should perform. Ted Wells... Harry: So you never felt alone. Father Brooks took a great interest in all of us. Father Honore, who was the only black Jesuit, had us down every Friday to Loyola where the Jesuits lived and remember the drinking age was 18. So he taught us how to eat properly with all those forks and knives, the finger bowl, you're laughing, but those things were hard. We didn't know. But he also gave us wines, bourbon just to know. He wanted us to graduate. And there was another priest who's late now also in Campion house who would have us over. And I remember when we were about to graduate, he gave us a line book. All of this was education. There were all kinds of people there to encourage you on campus and so many programs. And we thought that in those days, just men who were graduates that those guys did it, so we could do it. We just had to figure out how they did it. Harry: They were impressive. And Eddie Jenkins also was great football player, was somebody who would come back and talk to us. And just those, whether they were formal or informal, gave you beliefs that you could do it. Of course, we were trying to change the world also. We were very activist as students are today and protest marches and things like that coming out of the civil rights move, we thought that was part of it. So yeah, and that was another great reason I chose Holy Cross because my high school was too large to have mentors and a lot of close friends. So I was able to get that at the Cross. Jordyn: Yeah, the community. Community is what it is, and I definitely think that's a very important part. And as I hear you speak, you speak about the people in part in the community which is great to hear. Switching gears a little bit, what did you major in when you were at Holy Cross? Harry: Political science. Jordyn: Oh, very nice. How was that? I'm a sociology major, so I don't take too many political science classes. Harry: I had a few Sociology courses with Dr. Imse, who's a great teacher. But political science was something I thought I wanted to go to law school and I thought that was the major that would help prepare my analytical thinking. But by the time I was a senior, I decided that I had no interest in the law. And I remember Stan Grayson telling me that the people who do best are those who love the law and I reflected, "Well, no, I don't love the law. And so let me change up." Jordyn: Right. Yeah, of course. Any favorite professors you had that sticks out in your mind? Harry: Oh yeah. Tony Kuzniewski who is later also Father Kuzniewski. He was a chaplain for athletic teams for years. But in those days he was a seminarian and he looked younger than anybody on campus. He's always mistaken for a student and I look, years later, he was prematurely gray. It was like, the hair was white, but I just remembered him looking younger than me when I was at junior or senior. But he was really good. We took a course on immigration and I was praising the Statue of Liberty and he said, "Don't you dare praise the Statue of Liberty. My ancestors were not wretched refuse." I was like, "Ooh, there are many ways to look at this." So it was one of the life lessons. You have to look at things very differently in terms of what you look. Harry: The other great professor for me was Blaise Nagy, who was in Latin and Latin literature. I took Latin for two semesters and Latin lit. I took him four times so maybe he was my favorite. He was young also. So when you're young, you want young people and he had long blonde hair and he was handsome and we used to call him Blaz Nagy, because we thought that sounded cool. And I think he retired a few years ago, but man, he was great. He was demanding, but he also explained things. If you messed up he would embarrass you in public. Has happened to some people. But I'm from New York, we can take that. We're just used to go on back at somebody. You want to go back and Blaz, but yeah, he was fantastic. Harry: And as I said, Dr. Imse, he wasn't sociology was philosophy. His course was depth. Now think about it. First thing he said is a person only dies once, but an athlete dies many times. I never forget that. An athlete dies when you pour in a meat, when you fail in a game, after you are no longer an athlete and what are you going to do with that? So those were shocking thoughts when you're 18 or 19. I wanted to go to, which I never was good enough to go to, I wanted to go to the Penn relays. You have dreams of the Olympics, no matter how unrealistic they are, but those are the dreams, right? I wasn't that good, but those things, his message on depth has helped me in so many parts of my career. Harry: You're going to fail, you're going to go up against road blocks and how do you restart? How do you get back up? And how do you get back up with thought because in my day it was like, just brush it off and get up and go. And we know mentally, we didn't even talk about mental health. That was seen as weakling, but we know that is something that's needed now. And thank goodness that we had Dr. Imse who... He was the first professor that was telling us to reflect, take time on these things. So that was important. Very important. Jordyn: Yeah, definitely. Sounds like he pushed you a lot, challenged you in different ways. I think reflecting does something, really makes you look at yourself in a different way, but also who you are becoming. And that, it sounds like what Dr. Imse and your other professors helped you do. Helped you grow throughout your years at Holy Cross. And I know you touched upon it a little bit, but as you think about your career as an ambassador, what are some of the life lessons you learned at Holy Cross that were able to transfer over in your career? Harry: Well, first of all, I wish I had taken languages wth Fr. Honore because I wouldn't have had to work so hard once I joined the foreign service, so trust me, but Honore, we only had ABCDF in those days and Honore was, a 90 was a C. Nah, not for me. So I wish I had more courage. But I think the Jesuit values is something I take very seriously and honor duty, honor country, which is West point's motto, that's important to me. We were known as the Catholic West point believe it or not. When you look at it, representing your country, are you going to do the right thing? easy to do the wrong thing, but are you going to do the right thing? Are you going to tell the truth? Are you going to represent our values of democracy, of free markets? Of very important freedom of speech and freedom of religion. The other thing that Jesuits, I think were best at teaching us is to question authority. Don't take things for granted. Harry: There were conservative and liberal Jesuits and some of the conservative ones, I really didn't like. Their opinion was different than mine, but they taught me to look at somebody else's opinion who differs with you and listen to them. Don't just try to get to change their mind because that's not going to work more often than not, but listen and try to understand where they're coming from. And instead of just jumping in and say, "Hey, you should do ABC and D." And that was part of reflection, you had to reflect and do that. But I take that the ethics and honesty, which I credit my parents for also, but from the Jesuits. They were tough. A lot of these guys were World War II veterans, like father Brooks and others. Harry: So that was extremely important. Father Markey was there. He was a Dean of men, you didn't want to see him. He was one of our greatest basketball players. But yeah, I can't undervalue the importance of ethics and honor and doing the right thing, that my parents and the Jesuits and the professors put into me. And we were honest, there were no locks on the doors in our day and no locks on anywhere. And sometimes your friends might come and take a bite of your sandwich or beer, but we just trusted people. And there was that value of trusting people and opening your eyes. Jordyn: Right. Yeah, no, definitely. And I think you hit on it perfectly, trust. I think that's so big, we talk about it nowadays. Just being able to trust in the community you're with, I think it's so important. But this question popped into my head, but the black student union. Some of the values and different things. Talk a little bit about how that was for you being on campus and like you said, you have Eddie Jenkins and Stan Grayson, you have all these wonderful people, part of the Black Student Union, and now you're being able to add to this legacy. How did you see yourself in the black student union at your time on the Hill? Harry: Well, we were young and we were advocates. We argued among ourselves a lot about different strategies, protest marches, which we did. Remember we didn't have presidents and vice, we were ministers. We were like black panthers, we were in college and that was pretend if I look back at it. But we took ourselves and those things very seriously. So we were advocating for things like more black professors, more courses that we could relate to, even food in Kimball, which I think was bad for everybody in those days. Except once a month, somebody gets steak and then once a Sunday steak and eggs, but on track team before meets you got steak. I don't think they will feed your steaks now, they look at nutrition, but everyone gets a good meal. But we really took ourselves seriously. And so many of us were involved through the Black Student Union with other things as big brothers, big sisters. And those programs that you saw are a lot of BSU members in. Several on the radio and those things, that was really important. I wish that I had joined more organizations, that I learned more things because Holy Cross offers a lot of organizations. Harry: And then one of the things I would encourage current students to do is don't listen to the thought police, follow whatever you want to do, especially things that you have never done before. My close friend, Dr. Keith Crawley from my class at position, was the first black guy I ever saw the golf club. We're like, "Oh, we don't do that." My game would have been a lot better now. But really there were clubs on economics and trade and business. I wish I had done that. One of the things I'd love to see, and at Yale where I am a senior fellow, each college has its own endowment and the students with fund managers manage it. So they learned at young age, not everybody's going to go to Wall Street, but they learn a lot of finance and nowadays with FinTech and other things being an opportunity, Holy Cross is much smaller than Yale, but some way for... We need financial literacy in minority communities first, but also about businesses. My father was a small business person and I had to work in his store all weekends and all this stuff. So I definitely want to go into business. Harry: I don't want to be a small business person, but I wish I had learned more about economics and trade, international trade those things and that was open to me, but I chose not to do it. So I encourage people to try something different. Jordyn: Yeah, definitely. I think I'm experiencing that now. Junior year you're halfway through and you're like, where's the time going? It's going by so fast. So definitely trying new things is definitely how you're going to grow, right? In those uncomfortable situations, that's when you grow the most and I think that's so important. And as we think about the Holy Cross' mission, men and women form with others, how did you see that not only at your time at Holy Cross, but throughout your career? Because I think it's such an impactful statement that it really just can carry someone throughout their challenging moments, but also in those great moments. So how did you see that mission go along with you as you grew up? Harry: Well, one of the things I learned from Father Brooks and others was don't brag when you do charity. Do it because it's the right thing or because you want to do it, but just don't tell people I'm good at this, I'm doing it. It's like me saying, I'm a good father. Well, I'm supposed to be, right? What, I want to metal for that? I signed up for this. So it's the same thing. But let me tell you Jordyn, when I was ambassador to Bangladesh and their was I visited a school for boys who had been trafficked to the middle East to be camel jockeys. And they've been rescued and brought home. Their parents didn't want them because they had been raped and these boys were five, 10 years old. And it was embarrassment to the family. There was an American woman that had an orphanage that I visited for these boys and they were overcrowded, no latrine. Harry: And I asked my classmates many of whom I met when I lived in Clark. These were all whites and dear friends of mine for funds. And they gave funds for school rooms and bathrooms. In fact, there wasn't enough initial money for the bathroom and my friend Nina Riccio on her mother built a latrine. And when I visited, they named it after her. So she still has the pictures, I think. And when I went to the Philippines, there was a place called smokey mountain where kids climb up a hill that produces gas from the refuse to get their food. The stench is unbelievable. And we work with them to have a field of dreams and baseball, softball for girls and provide tutoring. But again, I asked my friends from Holy Cross, the send baseball equipment and they did, bats, balls, gloves. Harry: And even though one of the owners of the San Francisco Giants lived in the Philippines, our outreach to him did not succeed, but my classmate who lives in San Francisco Lori Stasukelis got with the San Francisco Giants and they sent out equipment and we brought Ken Griffey Jr. there of course too to tease them. But now I moved to Zimbabwe and a Zimbabwean playwright wanted books. He wanted books on black literature, black plays. He envisioned building in a park right across my office, a theater in the park where he was using trailers. And I said, "This thing looks terrible, but let's try." And reached out to my friends most of whom this time were African-American and family and they gave the books. They gave hundreds of books that he started a library with the train playwrights. When my wife was trying to work with kids who live... There are kids will live in game parks without much clothing. Again, it was our friends from Holy Cross and along with my family who shipped clothing for these kids. So I know in so many ways I could always reach out to my school mates from Holy Cross to help people that they've never met and never will meet. Jordyn: Right. Wow. That's just amazing to hear that story. I think this is great to have this opportunity to get to know you better, but also hearing about how Holy Cross has evolved over the years, but that foundation of community and helping people will always be there. Always. Yeah, I think that's great. So as we're continue to talk about your amazing career, what is one of the most memorable moments you can think about? And I know there's a lot, because you did great things, a lot of different things. So if you could pinpoint one or a couple, I would love to hear about that. Harry: Well, I'll try to give you three briefly. One was working at the White House on 9-11. Maybe I shouldn't even be here today if that plane going into the White Houses as planned and surviving that and then going with Secretary Powell to Kabul, Afghanistan within five months and seeing that embassy maintained, reopened, and being scared on the helicopter ride from Bagram Airport to Kabul, but seeing the embassy had been maintained and Powell wanting to give people rewards and the Afghans said, "Okay, but there are no women deserving." And he goes, "Okay, that's cool. No women, no rewards." They produced all the women who had worked, so don't compromise on things like that. And that was secretary Powell, but I worked for Dr. Rice in the White House. Wonderful person. In the Philippines, our United States Agency for International Development, which is our lead humanitarian agency, their director came to me and said that there were over 4,000 women dying each year from bleeding in the uterus after they give birth. Harry: In America and the developed world they get a drip that prevents the bleeding and costs a dollar a day, but people couldn't afford it. They had a dollar, they spent it on the other things. And we know what happens to boys and girls who lose their mothers at a young age, their lives are wrecked. And most of these would not be first time parents. So we work with an American pharmaceutical company and the Philippine government and we came up with a shot, a syringe that could go in the fatty part of anybody's body, woman after she gave birth, they chose to use midwives. And now we're saving several thousand people's lives each year. A fun thing was in June, 2012 we brought the president of Philippines to meet president Obama. And the night before, we were very worried about China and the Philippines going to war. Harry: And we did something that you don't see a lot. But we were in the Mandarin Oriental hotel in DC for a meeting and we cleared out the kitchen and we met with the president of the Philippines and some of his cabinet in this kitchen. And when I was there in the kitchen, I learned that the New York Football Giants who were world champions were coming to the White House that day. And they were like, "Oh wow, that's sweet." So, went upstairs and there were two of my Filipino American friends waiting for me and we have a drink and we spied Linda Johnson Rice of the then Ebony magazine, the publisher. And one of the women with me Lloyda Lewis, her husband Reginald Lewis was the first African American billionaire. Harry: And he had been in the magazine but she had never met him. Today if you go to the African-American history museum, you will see her name right next to Oprah as a largest donor. You go to Baltimore and you see the Reginald Lewis museum African-American history that she built. So I went over to Ms. Johnson rice and said, "Hi, my name is Harry Thomas. I'm the US ambassador to Philippines." And she just goes, "That's nice." Put her book up in front of her face and totally diss me. So what could I do, but slink away. And so the next day when we were doing the pre-brief with President Obama, he said, "Harry, why are you smiling so much?" I go, "Because Mr. President, the Giants are coming." And he says, "You want to them?" And I said, "Yes, sir." He says, "Okay, after the meeting, you can meet them." Harry: Now I didn't care what they said in the meeting. I wanted to meet my Giants. And after the meeting, he said, "Come on." And he grabbed my hand. I had to run out of the oval because you can't bring electronic equipment. I had my iPad in there, so I had to run and get that and he took me out, grabbed my hand, President of the United States and took me out to the garden and were next to Attorney General Holder and General Odierno and put me in the front row. So another life lesson, somebody disses you, but the person next to you, the most powerful man in the world had time to be kind to you. So we always have time to be kind to people. Jordyn: Wow. What a remarkable... That's amazing. President Obama. Had you met him before? Was that your first time? Harry: No, I had read him several times before, but it's always intimidating when you meet any president. You're never quite calm. I remember when I worked for president Bush, you'd go into the oval office, my feet always felt they were burning. No matter how many times I went in and after 9-11, because I was working on South Asia, I was in there a lot. And Dr. Rice would always leave you in there alone, brief the president United States one-on-one. And that would be a little nervous. So I can't tell you especially the first time you going there, you're not paying attention. You're like, "I'm from Queens and I'm here. I was born in Harlem, I'm here and I'm not cooking and cleaning." So it was always special. So I truly feel blessed. Jordyn: Yeah. That's amazing. I mean, I get nervous track meets you get in the circle, you just get stomach drops, but being in the White House, I don't know how that feeling feels, but I'm assuming it's a little bit of the same. Harry: Yeah. You know the anxiety before meet even when you wake up, even when you try to go to sleep early, you wake up that day, you have anxiety, even though you're trying to pump yourself up and be calm. It doesn't matter how many practice, that first throw relaxes you, kind of, right? Jordyn: Right, exactly. Harry: When the meet's over is when you're like, "Ah, yeah. It's Miller time." So that's the same thing and that never has you just got to do it a little better as you get along, but that anxiety. When you talk to Ken Griffey Jr. And others they said big moments, they always had anxiety. They had to hold themselves back from swinging at a pitch quick because they were so anxious and amped up. And I was like, "Wow, that happened to Ken Griffey?" I couldn't compare myself but I was like, man. Jordyn: Yes, of course. That is great. Great to hear that story. So thank you for sharing that. I think you touched on it before, you said you wish you took languages at Holy Cross. So how are you able to get over those challenges? Because they say it's not easy to learn a language past a certain age, it's better to learn them be the young. So how were you able to learn three, right? Three languages. Harry: Yeah. Again, fear. Fear of failure. In the foreign service, you have to pass these exams to keep your job. And again, I wasn't going home. But of course, when you're taking a language, especially the first one was Spanish, you really have to know English. The 14 tenses, all of that helps you, small classes... Every time I took a language, Hindi, Bengali, I studied a little Tagalog. They give you a book like you have when you were in kindergarten and with a pencil and you're starting over like a kindergartener only lower really, and so you had little books, but that's where you have to start and you quickly learn. The nouns are easy, so that's what people concentrate on. But you learn to concentrate on the verbs. But you're right about age. It's hard to have a natural accent once you get past 12 and in another language, unless you're a singer or you have good ear. So that's why you can hear a lot of singers or even rappers do songs in foreign languages. Harry: They may not have the exact, they'll have a Spanish accent, they may not have a Peruvian accent or Uruguayan accent because all Spanish, just like Americans have different accents in English, right? But they can be understood. It's like this, Jordyn, if I parachute in your hometown of Springfield, spend a weekend going around talking to people, how much do I know about Springfield? I don't know jack, right? Jordyn: Right. Harry: So in my job, I really had to live in a country and learn and be able to tell people in the United States what was going on. So if I didn't speak their language, understand their culture, how was I going to do it? So, and I speak your language in Springfield, but I don't know your culture. I know New York, but Springfield a couple of hundred miles away I just don't. So imagine that when you go to a foreign country. So you've got to know their language, it's disrespect if you're unwilling to learn somebody's language, you're living in their nation. Jordyn: Yeah, wow. Harry: And culture is so different. I saw Maura had up her Christmas lights, I'm sure y'all do also. My wife's family starts celebrating Christmas September 1st. In the Philippines that's when they do it, September 1st, they start playing Christmas music. That's okay. That's just their culture. Jordyn: Right. Harry: It's cool. When I lived in Arizona and I was at Arizona State, I told the young women that, and they were like, "That's weird." I said, "It's 95 degrees and y'all are wearing boots." They go, "This is the only time we can wear boots." Well, I don't care not a big deal, but it's okay. That's what you got to do, right? Jordyn: Right. Yeah. Harry: So you have to learn what drives people and understand that you don't speak their language, you'll fail. Jordyn: Yeah. And I'm quite sure you know just learning different cultures that was probably a great experience in itself. Learning the language, but also being around the people. I would love to hear a little bit more about how you really immerse yourself in different cultures and what you got out of that. Because of course I feel like right now my view is probably a little bit one dimensional as that like you said, Springfield, Massachusetts now Holy Cross. I really haven't immersed myself in a different culture, but you've been able to do that in so many different places across the globe. Harry: Well, I was no different than you when I was your age so don't be hard on yourself. Worcester was a culture shock, Holy Cross was a culture shock, trust me. But in the State Department we have these books called culture shock and they try to teach you before you go to a country, right? Many countries you can only eat with your right hand, many countries you have to take your shoes off, different gestures. If you call somebody the way we wave at somebody like that with our hand up, that's an insult. You have to learn to call people like this. Putting your feet up can be an insults in other cultures. So those are relatively easy, it shouldn't be difficult to learn. But what they eat and what they think, eating foods that I had never eaten before or thought about initially, it doesn't bother me now, but initially that could be a challenge. And drinking water from some places that you thought weren't so clean, but I did it, but that was a challenge. And it can be very hard for women. Places where they don't want to see women in pants or short shorts or going past religious houses on Fridays and things like that, days of prayer. Harry: So you have to learn these things and also protect yourself, but understand people. So yeah, every place I go, I served, there things were very different than the United States, which is why I'm so happy I'm home from the holidays now especially, but there was always some Americans saying that was weird. And I'm like, "What do you expect? Why would you expect Zimbabwe to be like Springfield? Duh. And why did you come if you did? And why are you complaining?" That wasn't most people. When I was a junior officer, we had to visit people in jail, Americans in jail, mostly for drugs, and it was never pleasant going to jail. And one day after they threw five nuns out the building and burned one. So, in Lima, it was dangerous, but we had to learn that culture of that jail to get through those guards and everything else. So, you're constantly learning and it's easy because if you respect people as especially now, your generation wants to learn from others, everybody's equal, everybody's woke. Well, that means listening to them, right? Jordyn: Right. Harry: We had a Black Student Union, but Holy Cross by many schools has a Caribbean Students Union, African Students Union, there's Asian students and Latin X students. And they're not all the same. I have a student at Yale who was from Puerto Rico and she didn't have other students who were Puerto Ricans from Puerto Rico. It was very different. And she had never seen a Puerto Rican professor at Yale who was from Puerto Rico. So she didn't feel aligned. This year we brought some speakers to Yale, a woman, Maria Russell was a Time Magazine person of the year, lived on the same floor with Michelle Obama at Princeton and yeah, a friend of mine and she, human rights activists, but they asked us to bring her there because they said everybody you're bringing from Asia is from Japan, China, Korea. That's not all Asia. So you have to understand that. And although there's an African Students Union at Holy Cross, I hope they're United to say that Africans from 54 Sub-Saharan countries, are the same, that's folly. Harry: And I can tell you having worked in the Foreign Service and now living in Florida, Cubans, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Ecuadorians, Colombians are very different and they... I just got an email from a friend of mine from Bangladesh who lives in New York. And she's been shocked by some of the racism she's experienced this year after immigrating from Bangladesh. But she says, "Why do people lump us with blacks? We're not black. We weren't brought here as slaves. We came here for a better life. Y'all were brought here. People need to apologize, but we have our own identity." And you look at that. Ooh, but she's right. Jordyn: She is. Harry: She's right. So it's a challenge for people. People don't like strangers, no matter who they are, they don't like new people moving in their community no matter who they are. Jordyn: Yeah. And I think with everything going on in the world right now, what we saw in the summer, the racial injustices, I think what we're starting to also see and what's coming to the conversation is how diverse people are in different... You may identify as one way, but your culture might say something else. So it's important to see everyone and like you said, listen and hear their stories and their experiences because it could be completely different from yours. Harry: And you're right. This has been such a difficult year. Not just the Black Lives Matter protest, but COVID-19. And you combine that, I think we, as a people, not only the United States, but the globe are under more stress than we realize. And we don't have a tradition of mental health days or meditation. We have a tradition of prayer and we really need to increase that. But I think a lot of people are stressed and I know that... I was joking with my cousin and if my daughter was home... At 16... During COVID, it'd be war. I know that a rebellious teenager? Oh Lord, I'm glad I don't have to do that. But imagine there are places where... You are one of four, right? So some school districts in places only give two laptops out or three. What happens if your parents can't afford it? What happens if everybody doesn't have their own room and the parent's teleworking too? Harry: So not only a lot of kids, unfortunately losing critical year of school and that really hurts minorities. But they don't have the tools to catch up and those kids are under stress. We know in poor communities where there is gunfire, drugs, kids are under stress. But imagine now all of these kids throughout America under stress and Christmas season is coming. And so many people have lost their jobs and they're not going to be able to give Christmas presents or give what they wanted and when that happens, men feel that they're not living up to what was expected and we see domestic violence go up. And so he's under stress and his family that he's abusing are under stress. There's no excuse for ever touching a woman. No excuse and don't tell me, but this is what happens. And we're seeing that. And then the third world where abuse of women is rampant, I'm sure it's worse. I don't have the statistics, but it's just common sense. Jordyn: Yeah. I mean, like you said, combining a pandemic with everything that is going on, it's just... When you look at it, it's a lot and- Harry: And we had the election. Jordyn: Yes. Harry: And I'm happy to say that the side I supported won, I have no problem in saying that. But a lot of people who supported president Trump are angry believing they were cheated, believing he was the winner. And we saw some of these people, the proud boys, marching in black churches and burning down, taking down Black Lives Matter flag in DC and burning them. Now I give them no sympathy, but we know their stressed too. And that can lead down unfortunate situations. So that's another reason why prayer helps. Meditation, prayer does help. Jordyn: Yes. I'd definitely say throughout these times, I think prayer has helped me channel those feelings of frustration and sadness. Prayer has helped me leverage that time to find time to be a better daughter, a better friend, a better sister being in the home environment. And I can say I'm grateful to have a great place to come home to, but also figuring out how I can use this time not to be all upset and worried about the problem. It's like, okay, let's see what we can use this time to do. Harry: No, I applaud you for that. I know as much as I was just talking about my daughter, I know it would have been hell on me if I were at home with the rents when I was junior. That was such a funny year, not the anxiety of senior year where you're worried grad school and getting a job. And so I like to keep you and others grounded, but I know I would have been suffering. And my parents have been looking at me as ungrateful. So I applaud you for doing your best. Jordyn: I appreciate that. Means a lot. Switching gears, I actually was doing some research and I listened to your commencement address in 2016. Very well done, very well said, but out of curiosity say your older self were to say to maybe you were a junior in college, you're going to be giving a commencement address, what would you say? Harry: I didn't know. Let me tell you what happened. My wife and I went to a dinner in New York, a Holy Cross fundraiser. We just happened to be in New York and we went and Father Boroughs came and got us and said he wanted to talk to us. And he said, "Hey, didn't you get a letter to open?" I said, "I get a lot of letters." And Holy Cross I said, "No I didn't open this letter." And he says, "Well, we want you to be a commencement speaker. I was like, "What?" Really, I was shocked. So then I talked to Father Boroughs about what the subject. Just like you looked at me, I looked at others. I mean, governor Cuomo, my God, the late governor Cuomo gave to me the best of the commencement addresses I've seen all across and what an orator. Harry: And so I said, "What can I talk about?" Obviously service. Father Boroughs said, "What about a gift?" "What gift?" "The gift of a Holy Cross education." I said, "Okay, let me start working on that." So I had five months, I had to go back to Zimbabwe. I was ambassador of Zimbabwe and I had a day job. And we have speech writers, but I couldn't employ them for that. It would have been an ethical violation. So I did what I did so many times, I turn into my family and my Holy Cross friends. So Steve Scott, who best man in my wedding and best man in his, from Boston, turned to Steve and he gave me some language. My sister and daughter did, my wife said, "That's not a good speech. You're not writing a good speech, you can do better." Harry: And so I kept refining it and it, and I remembered that before I was sworn in as ambassador to Bangladesh, that I was coming from visiting friends in Maine, July 4th, in 2003. And I stopped at Holy Cross campus. It was empty. And I was on the side of the Hill between Hogan and Healey. And I sat there and I wrote my speech and I was just calm, and I just got back in the car. So I thought I had the speech almost done, but it didn't quite work. So the morning of the speech I put on my Holy Cross shirt and I went to a Dunkin Donuts and I didn't want to go on campus and I rewrote it. And that's what happened. I had told them earlier, thank God I didn't, you don't want to share your speech, but Father Boroughs wanted to see it. I know he was nervous, I guess, what would I say, but I told him I wanted to do a selfie and only because he asked for the speech because otherwise I wouldn't have told them, but I'm glad I did because they had a camera behind and they sent me that photo, which is one of my favorite photos of all time to be doing a selfie at Holy Cross. Harry: But I will tell you, I have been blessed with many honors, many incredible honors in the Foreign Service and the other aspects of my life but the honor of my life was being invited to be the commencement speaker at Holy Cross, the honor of my life. Jordyn: Beautiful. We talked about nerves, I could only imagine the nerves of giving a commencement address, but also the honor that comes with it. It's amazing Harry: Every time before I speak and I don't always give a good speech, I do pray. Even as I'm walking down, I'm praying. God has been busy a few times, but most times he's been there. But yeah, it was. The speech at your Alma Mater. I hope you get that opportunity. I really do. I've spoken in other colleges, I did a commencement address at Loyola, it was exciting, my whole family came for the weekend. Everybody's in a different hotel rooms and stuff, at your Alma Mater is something. Jordyn: Yeah. It's something special. And I know you said it's a gift. You talked about the gift in your speech. You said every once in a while peek inside, take it out, use it to better the globe. So how will you continue to use your gift that Holy Cross gave you? Harry: Well, luckily I still work with some Holy Cross brothers. I work with Ron Lawson who works with Care for the Homeless. I'm a member of his board. We had a board meeting last night actually. And I've learned a lot about the homeless. So many of the homeless in New York are women who are employed. Some of the mental challenges they have, but I'm proud of Ron's work and the Care for the Homeless work they do. Similarly, I'm chair of the board of Winter4Kids, Schone Malliet, another Holy Cross alum, Marine aviator, who said the reason he does things like this is nobody ever told him no. So giving kids opportunities that I didn't have, to use winter sports. And I knew how to toboggan and throw, we had a lot of snowball fights at Holy Cross between the dorms, the elevators and everything. We were crazy toboganning, Oh my God. Harry: But I didn't know how to ski, sleigh, and I had opportunities to learn. I had no interest and giving kids at a young age the opportunity to learn winter sports, as you know, you're an athlete, it's important to be outside, learn how to be, even in winter sports there are teams, individual and team. Learn that these are great athletes. And besides I got to meet Lindsey Lohan because of Schone last year. But work with those two organizations. Friday, my wife and I are going to be helping to feed the homeless down here in Tampa. When we were in DC, we went to Gonzaga High School, which is a feeder high school for Holy Cross, a Jesuit High School. They had feeding programs for the homeless that Holy Cross alumni association would run and Gonzaga's colors are purple and white. So it felt like we were right back home. And I was always meeting people there that I didn't know, they were just Holy Cross alum trying to give back, really, really good people. And you can't neglect your family, you got to give back time and effort to your family. So I still try. I still try. Jordyn: Right. Yeah, definitely. I think that's great. Great note to end on. I think this podcast has been great. Harry, I'm so happy that we had this time. I got to know you a little bit more and hear a little bit more of your story, which is always great. But truly, truly want to say thank for your time and thank you for sharing your gift. I'll say that too. Harry: Well, thank you and Maura for this. Thanks for the gift of Holy Cross. Thank you for having me. Jordyn: Yes, of course. Thank you. Harry: AMDG. Maura: That's our show. I hope you enjoy hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be people for and with others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, then please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the office of alumni relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcast. I'm your host Maura Sweeney and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, "Now go forth and set the world on fire." Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

In this episode, Meah Austin '22 interviews Danita Beck-Wickwire '94 about her time on campus and her journey after Holy Cross.  Their conversation highlights the many ways that you can engage your passions throughout your life, be it through service, hobbies or professional work. Interview originally recorded on September 4, 2020.  Due to the ongoing effects of the pandemic, all interviews in season 2 are recorded remotely. --- Danita: It's always nice to know that what you are doing will change someone's life for the better, that you will affect change in individuals and communities and make this world a better place. Maura: Welcome to Mission Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, director of alumni career development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. In this episode, we hear from Danita Beck-Wickwire from the class of 1994. A native of Memphis, Tennessee, Danita currently makes Baltimore her home, having also spent time in Worcester, Chicago, Mississippi, Europe and Boston. Her professional journey reflects who she is. An artist, philanthropist and volunteer at heart, her career path shows what it means to follow your heart and your passions. Maura: Beginning her career as a teacher in the inner city in Chicago, she devoted the rest of her career to supporting education and the arts through fundraising and philanthropy. She is joined by Meah Austin from the class of 2022. They first met in Meah's first semester on campus at the BSU's 50th anniversary celebration in 2018. They have kept in touch over the years and formed a wonderful mentoring relationship. Their conversation showcases the many ways that Holy Cross and its community can remain alive and active throughout your life. Meah: Hello, everyone, my name is Meah Austin, class of 2022 and I am here with The Danita Wickwire, class of '94. Fun fact before we get started, Danita is one of the first alumni I met at Holy Cross and I can tell you all that knowing her these past few years have been phenomenal. She certainly has acted as a mentor to me. Danita would you like to further introduce yourself? Danita: Yes and I'm also going to introduce you as well. Meah, thank you for joining me for this conversation and thank you for following up with me. Meah and I met at the BSU 50th anniversary celebration in November, 2018 and I met a number of students that weekend and saw old classmates and friends and made a lot of new friends. I was really impressed with Meah because she sent me an email within a week of meeting and she always stayed in touch, and I remained in touch with her, and I was delighted to have the opportunity to see a young woman following in my footsteps as a student at Holy Cross. It's not an easy school, it's rigorous, and it strives for excellence. Danita: So I wanted to be there for you and I'm honored to have had the opportunity to have mentored you in the last two years, and to continue to do so, as long as we were together, Meah. So thank you for the introduction and for joining me today. Meah: Thank you. Don't make me tear up. So, to start us off, Danita, how did you end up in Worcester, Massachusetts being that you're from Tennessee? Danita: The journey to Worcester, Massachusetts, it's funny, when I was 10 years old, I decided that I wanted to go to college in Massachusetts. Now, how in the world would a 10-year old in Memphis, Tennessee take Massachusetts? Well, my elementary school was on a college campus at the Memphis State University at the time, campus school. There were faculty families from around the world, around the nation. Everyone was college bound because we were already on a college campus. Just looking at colleges and hearing the stories of some of my classmates and their families, I realized there were many good schools in Massachusetts. Danita: When I was 10, I didn't pick the one but I selected Massachusetts. I remained interested in college, college bound over the next few years from the age of 10 to 18. I did look around the nation. I looked around the world as well but in my junior and senior year, somehow I returned to Massachusetts, when I considered my final college applications. I added the College of the Holy Cross to that combination, because I was interested in the rigor of a Jesuit education and I was really excited by the mission of the College of the Holy Cross, combining service and the rigorous education focusing on excellence, that resonated with me. I really wanted to consider being part of that community. Danita: I enrolled in Holy Cross to get a solid, strong liberal arts education and I left Holy Cross as a woman for others, which is the case with our mission at Holy Cross. We are men and women for others. Meah: That's awesome. I can certainly agree, the Holy Cross education just fosters your values you come in with and just really creates them and promotes them into being formed with others. So that's amazing, now that we understand why you chose Massachusetts, why the small Jesuit Liberal Arts College, why Holy Cross? Danita: Okay, I can break that into parts. First of all small, I was interested in being in a small community where I can be a person, and not just a number, and that rang throughout the entire Holy Cross experience. I will answer your other questions, but I want to tell the story first of how I selected my major. I learned at the end of my sophomore year that there was a difference between deciding your major and declaring your major. When my class Dean, Vicki Swigert called me on a Tuesday morning, and she said, "Danita, you have not declared your major." I said, "Yes, I have. I've declared that it's going to be art." Danita: "It's not going to be history. It's going to be art," because I was interested in a dual major at one time and fascinated between art and history for my first year and a half. She said to me, "No, Danita, you need to declare your major, you need to come down to the registrar's office and fill out the paperwork to declare your major. When you get out of your design class this morning, come downstairs. The paperwork, we'll be waiting for you." I realized, "Okay, I need to declare my major." I also realized that my class dean knew that I had not declared my major. Danita: She knew my phone number, and was willing to make the call and she knew my schedule for the day. She knew that I was heading to design class and that I had nothing on my schedule after design class. I was a person she knew and she was a person I knew and not just the number. That is part of how a small community is really beneficial for many students as they pursue their college coursework. Now, the Jesuit tradition and the liberal arts tradition, as I just stated, I wasn't sure exactly what I wanted to study. I was interested in many areas. I've always studied art. I've always enjoyed writing. In high school, I ... I was a triple major actually, now that I think about it. Danita: Yeah, you could do that in high school, but I took math courses all the way through. I was a social studies major. I took art courses. So I had a variety of interests and I knew that studying at a liberal arts college such as Holy Cross, I could pursue many of those interests. I could take the courses in the core curriculum, and with the liberal arts degree, learning how to think, learning how to solve problems, learning how to communicate verbally and in a written form, would position me to go into any career field. I might need additional training, additional coursework but I knew that I could do anything with a liberal arts degree and that I wouldn't be stuck in one track that I selected as an 18 year old without necessarily knowing the world or myself that well. Danita: So liberal arts appealed to me in that way and the Jesuit tradition, being a woman for others, that had already been critical in my life. I spent most of my summers engaged in volunteer work. I was a volunteer at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital in Memphis for a number of years and through that experience, I became a point of light for those who are familiar with President George H.W. Bush and his inaugural address. He spoke of a thousand points of light and the United States recommitting itself to service in some way, similar to what President Kennedy called for with the creation of the Peace Corps in 1960, 1961, I should say. He spoke of a thousand points of light and it was beautiful to hear him speak of it. Danita: From that language, came up Point of Light Initiative. In our local newspaper, The Memphis Commercial Appeal, picked up on the concept of a thousand points of light and they decided to look for 1000 volunteers in the Memphis community, and in my work at St. Jude, I was nominated to be one of those 1000 points of light, and I was one of Memphis's thousand points of light. I had the opportunity to hear President Bush speak to the other 999 and myself the day before Thanksgiving, my senior year. Our points of light initiative in Memphis was considered one of the 1000 across the nation. Danita: So I am one one thousandth of a point of light and I am honored and compelled to continue to let my light shine, so that it may be a beacon to others, so I can help them to find their way in this world, and that is part of my commitment in connection to the Jesuit mission of the College of the Holy Cross. Meah: That's amazing. I mean, that's so exciting to have that experience and always be able to look back on that experience and realize that that was a pivotal moment that really led to your values and continuing to do the work that you did. So I can truly admire that. Also, touching upon the liberal arts piece, I certainly agree with that. Now, being a current student, I looked through the course catalog every semester, and I'm like, "How do I only take four classes with all these amazing courses that touch upon so many different areas." Meah: So I think that just shows like how Holy Cross is so interdisciplinary and really can make the students, regardless if you're a history, major, art major, psychology major, you're all learning so many different things that are really going to promote your professional life and even what you do in the world in your community. So I truly respect that and I think that's awesome. So now, to just dive a little bit deeper, how was your transition your first year? It must have certainly been something so different being raised in Memphis. You're getting cultural changes and not to mention all the winter snow that you find on the hill. Danita: So the transition was interesting. I had certain expectations of college. My older sister traveled from Memphis to New York to attend New York University three years before I enrolled in college. So I was prepared for certain aspects of college, particularly college in the northeast. I was prepared for the colder climate. I was prepared to start again, so to speak, going to a school where no one from my high school and in that city, no one from ... Excuse me, in that year, no one from Memphis was at Holy Cross. So I was prepared to start over and find my way, all over again, as I had done in other schools. Danita: I was also prepared to meet new people, have new experience and interact with individuals from all over the nation and all over the world. It was exciting. I was thrilled and I was looking forward to making that transition to New England. I must admit, I was very fortunate my freshman year. We did not see a big snowstorm first semester. Meah: That's surprising. Danita: I was done in the next few years, and we saw really big snowstorms but in that first year, when I was making my transition into living in Massachusetts, I didn't have to deal with a blizzard before Christmas, which was wonderful. Not everything was wonderful and perfect in that first semester, I must admit. The transition was ... Despite my expectations, and what I hoped for, the transition was a little more challenging. To be frank, I wanted to transfer. I was looking at other institutions but my parents, especially my father, made me stay at Holy Cross. They did not force me to stay but they let me know that if I left Holy Cross, I would not be able to enroll in a similar institution at home or at another community, I would have to return to Memphis. Danita: Even though I did not have friends from home at Holy Cross, all of my friends who were interested in going away to college had gone away to college. There were so many of us in New England. It was like part of Memphis had been transplanted to New England, to Boston, to Hartford and other communities around that region. I thought about what Holy Cross had to offer and there were some moments, some sparks especially with my wonderful roommate Colleen Keys. I realized it was a caring place, I realized I had not found ... from my place in the circle yet, and I believe in the power of yet, so I did stay. Danita: I gave it a second chance. Over time, I developed connections. I deepened relationships with some of the people I knew and some of those people are my closest friends today. The people I speak to on a regular basis. Angela Preston, Matt Dudley, Maury Bonner, Meghan Cecil, those were the individuals with whom I connected then and if you look at the last 10 texts that I sent out or the last 10 phone calls that I've made, those four people are among that list. Meah: That's amazing. So I can really attest to that, Holy Cross, it's something about the people there, something about the people that are really making a home. So just to dive a little deeper, if that was your transition, it was a little rough, what kind of involvement did you have during your time at Holy Cross that perhaps alleviated the homesickness, the desire to maybe transfer, what really made that difference? Danita: I really immersed myself into my art classes. I took drawing my freshman year. I was very fortunate, I had signed up for an art history course and the course was at 8 AM, 9 AM, some really ugly hour in the morning for me. I realized I wanted to make art and not study art at that point in my life. I met with Susan Schmidt, who had an opening in her Introduction to Design Class. This was in 1990, when you did not have the opportunity of looking on your computer, see an opening in a class and selecting that class and enrolling right away. You needed to ... and I lived in Clark on the fourth floor, at the beginning. Danita: You needed to go all the way down to Fenwick and up to the fourth floor at Fenwick to meet with the professor, to confirm that there was still the opening, that you could get into it and then, go down to the registrar's office to enroll. So I raced to Susan Schmidt's office as soon as I could and I asked her about the opening, and she told me that it had already been filled. She asked me if I had any art experience and if I had a portfolio, which I did. So I needed to race down the stairs, up the hill, up to the fourth floor of Clark. Meah: My goodness. Danita: With the portfolio and race back down to Susan's office, which I did and I was happy to do it. She looked at my work and she told me that I would need to take design later but I could skip Introduction to Design because I had a substantial portfolio that demonstrated my understanding of the basic elements of design in artwork. I enrolled in a drawing course and really enjoyed exploring the creativity and getting to know my fellow students. That was my first true area of engagement and interacting with classmates, friends, new friends on the hall in Clark Three because I moved to Clark Three when I moved out of my triple. Danita: That was really critical in my ... finding my way at Holy Cross because there were some great women on that Hall including my roommate, Colleen Keyes and Rachel Pierre and Gina Wilson, they were both juniors and lived around the hall from us. I still remember that night I came back in January of 1991, I didn't want to be there but as soon as I opened the door on the hallway, Rachel, Gina and Colleen raced down the hall, "She's back. Oh my gosh. She's back. We didn't think she was going to make it." They raced down the hall and grabbed my bags and escorted me back in and that was the first time that I really felt welcomed and missed and appreciated and loved at Holy Cross. Danita: I continue to feel that especially on Clark Three because Rachel Pierre was actually the SAA, the student alcohol advisor, which is one of the reasons why she was a junior living in Clark instead of one of the upper class dorms. She looked out for me, she and Gina looked out for me a lot. Rachel did my hair. Rachel and I took classes together later and she would grab me out of my dorm to make sure I studied and I remember my first history exam, she was not in my history class but one of her closest friends was, she'd walked into my room and she said, "What are you working on babe?" Because she called everyone, babe and I told her ... and she said, "I think Sayeeda is taking that same exam tomorrow, you guys should study together." Danita: She called Sayeda, confirmed that she was taking the exam tomorrow, and sent me down to Sayeeda's room for a study group. Otherwise, I would have been studying alone, I might have fallen asleep but I think I did better on that exam and in that class because of Rachel and Rachel always had cookies, and she fed me. Gina and Rachel both took me wherever they were going, whatever they were doing. Rachel was an RA and I went on trips with her hall to Boston and Gina's capstone project at the end of her senior year, which was my sophomore year was a historical play on the role of black women in the world. Danita: I was in an ensemble piece in the play about African women and I was in a critical role at the end of the performance, I was cast as Oprah Winfrey. Meah: My goodness. Danita: That's a huge role and one of the funny parts is we went through dress rehearsals in a casual manner, to the extent that there were many nights that I rushed from one performance as an African woman, not wearing shoes to the Oprah role. I just put on the clothes. The night of the performance, I walked out on stage with no shoes on, as I had done so many times during rehearsal, and I was about three minutes into the piece before I realized, "Oh my gosh, I'm on stage with no shoes on," but everyone thought it was intentional and part of the performance, so I just carried on from there. That was my first real performance, acting performance ever and that led to other acting performances later in my college life. Danita: So I did find my way, there were a few others who helped too on Clark three. I ran track for a little while and Egetta Schumski lived a couple of doors down as well. She had a roommate, Kristal Rice made sure that I made it to track practice and that I made it from the field house all the way back to Clark because I was pretty tired as a new runner. Egetta taught me how to run. She taught me how to breathe. She taught me what to wear. She really prepared me for a track experience and although I didn't stay with the team, I continued and continued to be a runner to this day. Thanks to the Egetta who is now Wellness Coach Alfonso. Danita: Kristal Rice, I think before I joined the track team, I tried to join the rugby team. Krystal was on the rugby team. She saw that I'd signed up for it. She was happy that I was interested but she pulled me aside and discouraged me from pursuing rugby any further. I thought, "Well, I think I can keep up. I think I can run and take a few hits and maybe catch the ball and possibly kick it. I think I can do this." She said, "No, that's not it. I don't think you can drink enough to join the rugby team." I trusted her good judgment and she probably really saved me from getting injured and becoming ill playing rugby. Danita: So Krystal, if you're out there. Thank you. Thank you very much. Those were simple basic forms of engagement, but in my sophomore year, that was when I truly explored leadership opportunities at the college. I moved to Wheeler and join the Wheeler House Council. I ran for an SGA position. I was the black student representative for SGA. I ... what else did I do that year? As a member of the House Council in Wheeler. There's the basic house council meetings and social events but we had a dynamic head RA, Rick Swanson. He was also committed to the Jesuit ideas and he was a fan of Bobby Kennedy. Danita: He created a thing called the dream of the month so that we would focus on some dreams, some aspect of giving back to the community, and he created and we created with him, an event called The Five Winter. It was a big party with food and music on the Wheeler Beach that raised money for the homeless in Worcester and that tradition continued for a number of years. Those were the types of things and the involvement that we had in Wheeler, which is amazing and phenomenal. Moving on in my next years, I used those two experiences, the SGA experience and being on House Council, as stepping stones. Danita: In my junior year, I became an RA in Wheeler. In my junior year, I was selected for the SGA cabinet. I was a subcommittee co-chair for the Tampa Center Board of Directors, CCBMD. I wrote for the newspaper. I was not a member of the staff, but I submitted regular editorials and what else did I do? I had a work study position in the art gallery. So senior year, I was a head RA in Clark and it was a funny thing about my Holy Cross experience, I only lived in two dorms. I started at Clark. I lived in Wheeler for two years and then, I moved back to Clark Three as the head RA and my head RA room was two doors down from the room I had freshman year. Danita: It's funny I remember my stereo could not pick up the exact same radio stations. Two doors down as I could in my old room. It was the weirdest thing but I found good music anyway. As a head RA in Clark we called the dorm, "the Clark Rock Café, No drugs, No nuclear weapons," and we created T-shirts Elliot Visconsi and I designed the short together. I hand drew the globe in Clark Rock Cafe and he had a computer and designed the rest in a graphic design format. We realized we needed more than T-shirts, so we created an event called the Clark Rock Cafe. It was an opportunity for so many of the campus bands to play on campus, instead of having them playing in the pubs and bars and parties off campus. Danita: I did drink and go off campus but I knew not everyone liked to do that. I didn't like to do that all the time and I really valued this event which was held three times as an opportunity for students to do something fun and interesting with the bands and inside the dorm without having to take the risks of going off campus. We served mocktails. We had the coolest bands on campus. We had Spindrift. We had Barfly. We had ... I should know all of them. We had the Sea Monkeys. We had Foot Bob. We had Prodigal and a number of other bands I might be forgetting and they don't know my address now so they won't come to get me. Danita: We had great bands and great fun. There was actually an alumni band that came back and performed for one of the Clark Rock Cafes. It was a fun experience, in my opinion. We had crowds in the door for ... both for two of them, one didn't do as well but for the first one and the last one, they were very successful and I'm really proud that that was one of my hallmarks on campus as a Head RA. Another area where I felt the dorm could be effective was, in the relationship between faculty and students. Students frequently spent time with faculty in certain areas on campus, in the classroom, in their offices, in formal events. Danita: We rarely had the faculty come to our doors to see where we lived and how we lived. So, we created Clark Tail Parties and invited the faculty to come to the social room where we once again served mocktails and hors d'oeuvres and students had an opportunity to interact with faculty in a casual fashion. I still remember some students asking, "Well, who's going to be there? I'm not doing well in such and such class. Can you make sure so and so come so I can choose with them?" They were great. They were effective. They were fun. The faculty seem to have fun and so did many of the students who were there. Danita: I still remember we made Wassail, Wassail for the Christmas Clark Tail Party and we had the social room and we had the study room and we had something on the pot. Something on the stove, cooking and bubbling and making Wassail for the first time. That was fun, but it worked out. So that was a really important event in Clark and I really love being head RA. Clark was great. I still have dear, dear friends who were part of my Clark RA team and my Clark House Council, I'm thinking of Shane McLaughlin and Killian MacCarthy and Isa Squicciarini and Chael Christopher and Pete Cronin, and a number of others who were part of that Clark experience. Danita: Cary Anderson was the Associate Dean for Student, like assistant dean or associate, one of those but he also lived in Clark, and he was one of my favorite Residence Life staff members and we're still not super close. We don't talk every day, but we're still in close contact. He sent me a few photos a couple of months ago, with pieces of art in his newish place in Philadelphia. So we're connected and it was great to be in the same building with Cary, but he said we were loud. My dorm room was right above his. So sometimes we were loud. Sorry, Cary. So I had a lot of wonderful opportunities to develop additional skills, make friends and prepare for many aspects of a career, whatever that might be. Danita: I learned in my years at Holy Cross that you can select any major at Holy Cross and through your extracurricular activities and through your summer internships, you will be well versed and well prepared to enter into a variety of career fields. You might need additional training, yes, but you will know how to think, how to represent your ideas and how to solve problems. I also learned that and some of those leadership opportunities, you could make many wonderful, phenomenal, lifelong friends and I can't believe I'm forgetting one of my experiences. Also, in my junior year, I was invited to an invitation only production called Crusadist. Danita: Crusadist was a comedy performance show that took a satirical look at life at Holy Cross. I'd read about Crusadist my freshman year and people said, "Don't see the show until you're a junior because you won't understand the jokes. You won't know Holy Cross moment up until your junior year to get the jokes." So I didn't see the show freshman year, sophomore year, but junior year I was selected to be in the show and there are only two juniors in the show. If you're selected as a junior, that means you will be the producer of the show in your senior year. So my senior year, I was the producer of Crusadist and with my co-producer Mark Diaz, selected the cast, with the cast created the scripts. Danita: We were engaged in all forms of production, selecting the venue which was the crossroads pizza seller, creating the schedule for the event publicity creating the video, editing the videos that we use in the show and selecting the nonprofit to which we would donate the proceeds from the show. Crusadist was a big part of my life as the producer and it's really funny to say that people who were part of the show are still my closest friends today. Some of them, I did not know before the show but we were joined at the hip for weeks straight and we never fully disconnected. Meah: That's amazing. So really Holy Cross like, it wasn't just the academics that really formed your experience. It's clear, your story really shows that it was everything from your ... being in Wheeler to being in work study ... working in the art gallery as a work study, all the way to being in a comedy club, kind of thing. So that's really awesome, how so many different things pulled together to form your Holy Cross experience. What did you do after Holy Cross? Danita: After Holy Cross that wonderful head RA I had in Wheeler, Rick Swanson, he was an assistant director, initially a teacher then an assistant director in a program in Chicago called Inner-City Teaching Corps. It was a volunteer ... is, I should say. It's still around. A volunteer teaching program similar to Teach for America but the focus of ICTC, as we still call it, was on parochial schools on the south side and the West Side of Chicago only. It was founded by a Jesuit school graduate, Pat Ryan, who wanted to recruit other young people who were interested in making a difference in communities through teaching. Danita: So he looked to Jesuit schools, he looked at Ivy League schools to create the first corps of Inner-City Teaching Corps. Rick Swanson recruited me for the program. I realized in my life that education had made such a difference for me. I was college bound already. I found my success. I felt that I was destined to do so but I realized that so many others were being left behind. They did not have access to quality education and education is necessary to uplift communities. As a black woman, I realized that it was critical, especially to uplift the black community and that was very important to me. Danita: So I accepted the position in Inner-City Teaching Corps. I moved to Chicago three weeks after graduation. I taught summer school, part time ... yeah, part time summer school, I co-taught with another teacher in a parochial school on the south side of Chicago. At this time, 26 years ago, I was a full time fifth grade teacher at the Academy of St. Benedict, the African Laflin campus on the south side of Chicago. I had 21 boys and 10 girls in my classroom. Meah: So you had to have some patience in your early post grad years. Danita: My gosh, a great deal of patience. I still remember all the kids' names. I still wonder about those kids. I love those kids. They were an active group. They like to talk a lot. That was the most trouble my kids ever got into. They talk a lot but they were wonderful kids, they all have good hearts. I remember, the day I had laryngitis, I didn't realize I had no voice until 10 minutes before the students arrived. So I found things for the students to do that they could do without my talking to them. The day that I had laryngitis, they were so quiet. They whisper because they knew I could not speak to them. That was 26 years ago and I still remember that's what my students did. Meah: That is super thoughtful for fifth graders. So I can see that your heart was really in teaching and I can really admire that about you, especially with them being fifth graders. That's hard in yourself but you really made it work. So why teaching, what made you ... I know you touched upon a little bit with the Holy Cross network connection but what really led you to teaching? Danita: It was that desire to uplift the community, uplift all communities for we all rise together. The rising tide elevates all boats and I realized that there were communities who were being left behind. I had the great fortune of attending some of the best schools in my community from the campus school on a college campus to the number one college prep school in Memphis, White Station High and then going on to Holy Cross but I knew that there were so many others who wanted a better education, who wanted a better life that is made possible through education and other avenues. I wanted to be a part of that solution for them. Danita: I wanted to do something different, which was to go into the inner city where there were so many needs to reach out to those individuals because they had been left behind. They were still being left behind and that's why I wanted to be part of the Inner-City Teaching Corps in particular. It is now called the Accelerate Institute, but that's why I want to be part of ICTC at that time, in my life. Meah: That like touches me. I was going to be a teacher now. Danita: You would be a great teacher. Meah: What did you say? Danita: You would be a great teacher, Meah. Meah: I don't know my nephew would say otherwise. Danita: That's just one kid. That's just one. Meah: So how long were you a teacher for and what was kind of your next stepping stone? Danita: The program was a one or two year program and the organization was still in its developmental stages. I was a member of the third corps group for ICTC, now called the Accelerate Institute and a very large organization, larger, I should say, now, 26 years later. As volunteer corps members, we were encouraged to participate in many aspects of the organization. Some of us were encouraged to participate in recruiting trips. I traveled to New Orleans as part of my experience to introduce the program to Xavier University and Loyola University in New Orleans. We were also encouraged and given opportunities to participate in special events, and fundraising. Danita: I realized that fundraising ... this thing called fundraising or development really appealed to me, the work resonated with me. I have done something similar in public relations as an intern and it all came together and started to make sense. I also realized that as a teacher, I could affect the lives of the 31 or however, many students I had in my classroom. I further accepted the reality that as a philanthropy professional is one who raised the money to support other teachers, I could, in my work, impact the lives of a great deal more students, in a school, in a community, in our society. Danita: That was the first step that started to lead me to a career in this thing called philanthropy, is what I call it development and I didn't even really know the name of it at the time. The first step was in Chicago. I moved back to Memphis after my year of teaching and I began working with a group of artists. We decided to coordinate an exhibition for black history month at the Memphis International Airport because the airport was celebrating the opening of a new wing and a new non-stop flight from Memphis to Amsterdam. It was the perfect time to have an exhibition. I drafted the letters to the airport authority, on behalf of this organization of artist. Danita: I didn't realize it at the time but I was becoming sick with Mononucleosis. I was sick and in bed and out of touch for a number of weeks. At that time, the organization dissolved and there were no longer artists or resources. As I was recovering from mono, I had to curate a show. I had to find artists and I had to secure the resources necessary to produce an art exhibition. I was able to make connections to the corporate community in Memphis and secure corporate sponsorships for this exhibition which I didn't what at the time but I quickly learned that corporate support is a big part of philanthropy and a few months later ... the show was a success, by the way. Danita: A few months later when I saw a job for development at the Memphis College of Art, I applied. They recognized my name from the publicity the show had received. They also recognized my name because several of the artists were either faculty students or alumni of the college. So, I had inadvertently promoted myself as a philanthropy professional as well as promoting myself as an artist in the art exhibition. I accepted the position at the Memphis College of Art in 1996 and that was the beginning of my career in philanthropy and development in nonprofit management. I'm still working on this field today and enjoying it tremendously. It's an important area. It's been life changing for me to be able to work in this field. Meah: That's awesome. So, I really admire ... I know I keep saying admire but it's just like, "Wow, I didn't know about Danita. Yeah, I didn't know that about Danita. Wow, she has so much we got to talk about." I love how you're able to take your major, your passion, what really drives you and connect that with the profession. So, it seems like obviously with you being an art major, that art goes beyond just a common area requirement at Holy Cross and even the major requirements and personally my stick figure drawings. So, what place does art has in your life? Danita: First of all, Meah, we are going to work on those stick figure drawings. Meah: We'll do a Zoom session together, an art Zoom session. Danita: No, we should do that. That would be fun. Second of all, do not embarrassed by stick figure drawings because they are an expression of your creativity and your being and people say stick figures are embarrassing. Some of my drawings are pretty basic so however you express yourself, but yes, art has been an important part of my life. I have a personal goal as an artist, exploring ... building upon Georgia O'Keeffe's thoughts, how important it is to feel space in a beautiful and thoughtful way and to encourage others to do so as a means of self-expression and communication and connection. I started making art when I was in elementary school. At that time, we had art classes twice a week. Danita: I began drawing on my own, on the weekends and my art teacher thought I should take private lessons, which I started to do when I was in fourth grade. I created my first oil painting when I was 10 and I continue to take art courses in school and out of school and to make art on my own for a number of years and I am still making art today. I have masters of fine art from the University of Mississippi, where I work ... did painting and print making and discovered photography and digital video. I also spent two intersessions in Europe during my three years in graduate school. I studied in Sicily, water color in Sicily and I studied water color in London and while I was in London, I took a track to Paris to work in photography for a few days. Danita: Art has always been central to my life for my personal expression and I've also been an art instructor off and on throughout the years. Yes, Meah, I can teach you to appreciate and enhance your stick figures. Meah: Yes. What years were you in graduate school? Danita: 2006 through 2009. Meah: Okay, that's awesome, it also is exciting. Just to loop back around, when did you ... what happened after a month as working in your art center in Memphis, what was your next step? Danita: After a number of years of working in philanthropy at the Memphis College of Art, I returned to Massachusetts, and at the corps, the invitation for me to return to Massachusetts in any way, shape or form, interestingly enough, came from the College of the Holy Cross. In 1997, I was invited to participate in an exhibition called Self Images, 8 to 80 and it featured the self-portraits of women and girls in the Memphis community, the youngest one was five years old, I think and the oldest one was 82. The day that the exhibition opened, Tina Chen, who at that time worked in the office of the Center for Interdisciplinary and Special Studies, contacted me to let me know that one of the paintings she had in her office was going to be moved. Danita: I had left a painting with Tina, when I graduated and I had also sold a painting to the college the day I graduated. So College of the Holy Cross was my first art collector, ever as a professional artist. In that conversation with Tina, I approved the moving of the painting. We spoke and she asked me what I was doing. I told her about the exhibition and she told me the college was preparing for the 25th anniversary of coeducation or women coming to Holy Cross. She wanted to talk to the planning committee about this exhibition and the possibilities of bringing the show to Worcester in the spring. Danita: She contacted me a few weeks later to let me know that the college wanted to bring selections of the exhibition and they wanted me to have my own exhibition with the cantor gallery, in the spring of 1998. So I was back at Holy Cross that spring with so many of my friends and during our time on campus, three of us who were not in Boston, decided to move to Boston and that was my friend Melissa Jean-Charles and my other friend, Ekwi Nwabuzor both from the class of '96. We turned to each other and we, "Are you thinking what I'm thinking it was that type of moment," and we all clicked and decided we wanted to move to Boston. Danita: We did some apartment hunting, and in the end, we moved into a house that had once been the home for the band Naked Thru Utah. They were originally Spindrift on campus, they became Naked Thru Utah. One of the band members was an artist and painted a mural of Utah in the living room, and that remained there while we were there and probably several occupants later because it's pretty cool. When the band disbanded, one of the band members, Shane McLaughlin live there with another friend Chael Christopher, and they let us know that they were ... they and another roommate were moving out of the house. Danita: We just needed rooms for three, so we moved into the house. The move was beautiful. It was just well choreographed, even without being choreographed. I showed up from Memphis with my moving van and my parents. Shane and Chael and Melissa and Ekwi were all there to help unload the van and put everything in the house and then, Shane and Chael put all their stuff in the van with my dad and drove to their new place in Somerville. They hung out with my dad and drink a couple of beers and then, eventually my dad came back to the house that I was moving into where my mom was waiting for him. "Everett, where were you? Oh, I was just hanging out with the guys." Danita: My dad like my Holy Cross friends and they liked my dad, my mom too. So it worked out beautifully and I've another Holy Cross friend who was like a son to my father too, Kona Khasu and Mark LaFlamme. My dad considered them his sons but that's the beauty of those relationships. You develop and that's how I moved back to Boston and it all began with a phone call from Tina Chen. Meah: Wow. So that's a lot. That's like exciting. So you're really given ... Holy Cross never forgets the students and I think that's awesome, because you know what I mean, it could be years after you've already started your early profession, and you get a phone call from someone from Holy Cross and now you're in Boston. I think that's so exciting. So what did you do while you were in Boston? Danita: While in Boston, I work for an organization called the Boston Private Industry Council and it's a nonprofit, nearly 50 years old and it connects individuals in the community to jobs and experiences in the mainstream economy. It is the convener of the public private partnership in the community. It connects the corporate sector, the big corporations in Boston with at least one school in the community. So to some degree, it was a bit of corporate relations once again, for me and a little bit of education. I had the privilege of working at Charlestown High School and working through that partnership, stewarding that relationship with Liberty Mutual, with Bain, with Thomson Financial Services. Danita: Bringing in additional partners to work with the students in the school and otherwise support the school in its various needs, as public schools tend to have. In my work with the Boston Private Industry Council and at Charlestown High, I had the privilege of meeting a young man named Janniver Castro, a bright young man. I encouraged him to consider Holy Cross, which he did. He applied and he was accepted and he graduated in 2004. It was amazing to have the opportunity to send someone to Holy Cross, so soon after I had graduated from Holy Cross and oddly enough, he had the same class dean. He had Dean Swigert as well. Meah: I think it's funny because I'm still at Holy Cross and I'm quick to tell like some of my high school friends and even my younger sister, I'm like, make sure you find Holy Cross. She's literally going into her sophomore year. I'm like, don't forget, because Holy Cross is the place. So what came after your experience in Boston? I feel like we're just walking through all the amazing experiences you had so I must ask. Danita: Sure. Sure. Eventually, I did return to Memphis after a number of years in Boston. I returned to Memphis and around that same time, my father was diagnosed with cancer. So, it was really important for me to be at home, but it also seemed like it was time for me to be at home, like fate had a hand in my returning to Memphis because around the time that I was visiting Memphis, visiting my parents, I discovered an opening at an organization called the Urban Art Commission, also a nonprofit organization and the mission of the Urban Art Commission is the proliferation of public art and design throughout the Memphis and Shelby County community. Danita: There was a need for someone who had an education, background and arts background and a fundraising background to once again, oversee securing grants and support for some of the projects that would be created by the artists in the community. I interviewed for the position. I accepted the position and worked with that organization, supporting artists and as they filled the space in a beautiful way throughout the Memphis community. It was a dynamic and exciting position and I must admit, working with so many artists in their installations and pursuing large pieces of art, I mean, huge pieces. Danita: That inspired me to want to make my own large pieces and installations and that was part of the impetus for me to return to graduate school, at that time in my life, after being out of college for so many years, I realized a tremendous desire to immerse myself in a creative community, creating art and solving problems visually for three years in a row. So that's when I made the leap and did go to graduate school at the University of Mississippi. Meah: That's so exciting. I know I keep asking what's next but I just feel like everything just stems from your like, one, your passion with art, your passion with Holy Cross, your connections with Holy Cross. It's kind of phenomenal when you really think about it and I'm sorry about your father as well, I should mention that. Danita: Thank you. Meah: After your time in Memphis and Mississippi, what came next after that? Danita: Before I get to what came next, I need to take a step back. One of the first large installations that I remember, that was finalized and unveiled during my time with the Urban Art Commission was created by an artist named Vito Acconci. The late Vito Acconci, studied at the College of the Holy Cross in the 60s and I believe he wasn't an art major, because there wasn't an art major at the time but he created his own special studies. So he was technically the first art major at the College of the Holy Cross and I had the opportunity of meeting him in Memphis during my work with the Urban Art Commission. Holy Cross is out wherever you go. Meah: Yeah. Holy Cross is spread over ... all over the world map, it seems like to me and not only the US map but everywhere. Danita: It is true. That is true. To respond to your question, what was next? What was next after graduate school, I knew that I wanted to return to work in nonprofit management and philanthropy. Philanthropy and service were still critical to my life. Interestingly enough, while I was in graduate school, I was approached by the director of the Holy Cross fund at that time, Gary Carskaddan and invited to become my class's co-chair. It was the perfect time to do so because I was in graduate school, I was busy but it was nice to have an opportunity to serve my college in a different way, especially while I was on another campus and feeling connected to the academic experience. Danita: Even though it wasn't a Holy Cross, I was on a college campus and I became my class's co-chair in 2006, with Amanda Robichaud at the time. It helped me to reconsider and hone my skills in philanthropy and consider my next direction for after graduate school. I decided not to become a teacher. The masters of fine art, the MFA is the terminal degree in the art field and with that degree, you could become a college professor. I considered it but again, education is important, realizing that securing the resources for education can really change more lives than being in the classroom. For me, that was powerful and effective. Danita: So I decided to return to work in philanthropy. I considered returning to the Massachusetts area. I thought about Chicago, other cities and I decided to move to Baltimore. Baltimore might seem a little farfetched after my experiences in Memphis, in Massachusetts, in Chicago. How did I select Baltimore? Well, in Memphis, I met a young man and a wonderful young man, I should say, named Emerson Wickwire. He was kind and interesting and a graduate of a Jesuit school, Boston College. He was in a fellowship program at Johns Hopkins University. It was a one year fellowship that turned into a two year fellowship. While he was in his fellowship program, and I was in graduate school, we would travel together. Danita: We would see one another at least once a month, but if one of us had a conference or another event, the other one would go along and we would spend time together traveling in that way. I had traveled to Holy Cross for the class co-chairs and correspondents meeting in November of 2008 and Emerson came with me and on the lawn of the Jesuit residence, overlooking Wheeler, oddly enough, he asked me to marry him. Meah: My god. That's like a movie scene. Danita: It was like a movie scene indeed. It was a complete surprise, poor Emerson had ... he had this ring burning a hole in his pocket and he was nervous and he was anxious. We were on the Holy Cross campus together for the first time and I had so many stories to tell him. I would not stop telling stories long enough for him to pop the question, so to speak. Eventually, I took a breath and he was able to ask me to marry him and I said, yes. We attended the class co-chair's dinner that night and I introduced him to people as my fiance. I still remember Gary Carskaddan was so cute. He said, "Wait a minute. Danita, we spoke this morning, you said your boyfriend was coming with you." Danita: "So what has happened in the last few hours," and shared the ring, told him the story and that was how and when and where our engagement began and our beautiful journey as man and wife, all started at Holy Cross and that is how I decided to move to Baltimore, where I still live. Meah: First of all, that's awesome. I feel like that's like a movie scene, like you guys could be in some like scene or something but that timeframe, obviously, was during the recession. So how did you connect with people, navigate life, build a new community in Baltimore being that it was really ... never been a place you then been at prior to that experience? Danita: That is true, Baltimore was a completely new city, a new environment. Emerson had been here for two years. At that time, he had a cousin who lived here and he made some friends, made some connections at Johns Hopkins but he was largely focused on his academic career. So you will see this, Meah. When you're in graduate school, you will not make as many friends as you do when you're an undergraduate because you're focused so much more on your studies. So that being said, I didn't make as many friends in graduate school. He had a small and growing network as well, but I was able to tap into the Holy Cross network when I moved here. Gary Carskaddan, introduced me to a woman at Loyola University who introduced me to a number of people, who introduced me to others. Danita: Julia Galleazi-Lapan lived here. She worked at Loyola, and later worked at Johns Hopkins. She introduced me to a number of people and Baltimore is a charm city, people are very friendly here. Philanthropy is also known for attracting people who have a sense of kindness and a sense of giving and a desire to help others. So, as I met more and more people who worked in philanthropy, they were willing to introduce me to even more people in philanthropy. I was able to create and build a network quickly based upon a foundation of a Holy Cross Network and a few connections. Danita: My first position was with an organization called CCS Fundraising. Oddly enough, the individual with whom I spoke first was in the CCS office in New York but it was Sean O'Connor, who was a '92 graduate of College of the Holy Cross. That helped to confirm my first position where I worked for five years and I've been with Johns Hopkins University for the last five years. I enjoyed my work in consulting. I enjoyed working to advance a number of different missions, but focusing on one mission was critical to me. That was something that I wanted to do and I knew I wanted to, once again, focus on higher education fundraising, especially for a larger institution. Danita: The mission of Johns Hopkins truly resonated with me, educating others and cultivating lifelong learning, supporting original research and the service aspect, sharing that knowledge with the world. That spoke to me in so many ways and I wanted to be a part of advancing that mission. Meah: That's awesome. So, just a little bit more in speaking about the mission, so how does the Johns Hopkins mission, even in your previous roles, align with your own personal missions and what you see in a profession, what you really ... what motivates you to go to work, what motivates you to really dive deeper and do what you're supposed to for Johns Hopkins and the other organizations you work for in the past? Danita: I've always had the fortune of ... good fortune, I should say, of working for many education organizations and arts organizations. Education is critical to the work of the Jesuits. That's part of the appeal of the Jesuits for me and promoting and advancing education, ensuring that education is accessible to more in the community or a better education is accessible to individuals and groups in the community, that has always been important to me and that's what gets me out of bed in the morning. To be able to support a mission. To be able to do great work, the small work that helps to bring forth the resources necessary, so that others can have access to high quality educational experiences both the traditional classroom learning and the experiential learning. That can help connect what someone's going to do when they finish high school, college, graduate school, to what they are doing in the classroom. Danita: Education has always been key for me and my family, and the Jesuits, and the work that I do, and I think now, specifically in my work at Johns Hopkins of the recent Bloomberg gift, the 1.8 million dollars for undergraduate aid was a phenomenal gift. We don't think about it as just a number. That's part of the beauty of working in philanthropy for an extended period. Danita: You don't think about the money, you think about what the resources can do. How they can affect others. With that gift, Johns Hopkins education is now within reach for so many families who couldn't have thought of sending their children to Johns Hopkins University. They're going to receive a tremendous education and the additional support that they need to stay in school and pursue their dreams as students and after they graduate, and having played a small role in the work to secure that gift is truly meaningful and heartwarming for me. It's always nice to know that what you are doing, will change someone's life for the better, that you will affect change in individuals and communities and make this world a better place. Meah: I love that. I love how you don't look at it as a simple dollar sign but instead what that dollar sign can do for students in Johns Hopkins, pursuing Johns Hopkins and even their life outside of Johns Hopkins, so that's awesome. Everyone listening can assume you've been really in touch with the Holy Cross community during your time at Holy Cross, shortly after your time at Holy Cross and even to the present day, so what do you do with Holy Cross currently? Danita: Well, Meah, I have the wonderful opportunity of now, spending time with students such as you, an informal mentoring and engagement. I'm also a member of the college's board of advisors. I am still my class's fundraising co-chair. I have a new co-chair now. He's been my partner in this work for the last three years, Matt Dudley, who was actually one of the first people I met, freshman year. I'm also a member of the Bishop Healy Committee. Additionally, I find myself working on a few independent grassroots projects and I really appreciate it that the staff at Holy Cross supports and partners with me and some of these efforts. In the spring, when the ALANA, an international student baccalaureate was zoom bombed by a horrible sign of hatred and fear. I was crushed, to know what happened. Danita: To see what happened and I moved quickly to work with other alumni to create messages for those students who had that horrible experience in their penultimate day as Holy Cross students, their last night on campus, that was their experience after being sent home for remote learning due to the pandemic. I knew they needed something, some outreach, some message they could keep with them. So 50 other alumni partnered with me to create brief messages of support, that were curated into one virtual hug, so to speak and sent to all of the 2020 ALANA and international graduates in June. Then, I count my blessings that so many alumni were willing to come forth and partner with me in that project. Danita: I also count my blessings that members of the staff and administration were supportive and allowed me to pursue that project. It was completely a grassroots effort and not from any organized group, just people who care and that's another part of the beauty of the Holy Cross community, people who care. Meah: I agree. Just the little things, the thoughtfulness, recognizing someone ... Yeah, I mean, these times are hard, what can we do as Holy Cross alumni speaking from your perspective, so you know better the situation. So that virtual hug must have been awesome and very touching in a sense. Danita: It was. It was an interesting final production, it was long, it's about 30 minutes long and no one complained that it was too long fortunately. It might have felt long, but in the message that I drafted to be sent to the graduates now, I encouraged them to play part of it, whenever they wanted to hear a few words of encouragement, if ever they felt down or lonely just to play a couple of videos for five minutes or whatever their favorites might be. Meah: Right and I remember when we first met BSU 50 and shortly after, getting into each other's email inboxes, you often had a lot of motivational and small things to send off to like a few people. So I know those little things, put a smile on people's faces and I personally got to experience that from you early on in our mentor-mentee relationship, so I appreciate that. Danita: You're welcome. You're welcome. It's a privilege and an honor to pass it on. When I was a student, there were alumni who came back for us, who spent time with us who spoke to us. I remember an alum, I think her name was Michelle. She came back to my dorm with me to see my artwork and I was so flattered that someone wanted to come to my messy dorm room in Clark to see my artwork. Ted Wells came back and spoke to us our freshman year, and told us of his experience. He encouraged us to give back as a means of staying in touch with the next generation of inspiring and influencing the next generation, and making a real difference at the college. Danita: If there were aspects of the college that we wanted to touch, we would need to be engaged and stay engaged in some way and not just criticize from a distance and hope that someone would hear our thoughts. Meah: Right, right. As our time comes to an end, I think it's really worth noting that through these unprecedented times, the Holy Cross alumni, specifically the Holy Cross BSU alumni have been really supportive of myself and even current students. So, I just want to thank you, Danita and the rest of the alum for really building these connections during these six months and continuing to build these connections as our lives are drastically different. So on behalf of students, again, thank you. I enjoyed a lot of happy hour, being able to laugh and talk with you guys, share our experiences and really get to connect deeper. Meah: I don't know if you want to touch upon that a little bit but I know I'm certainly grateful for those experiences. Danita: Meah, you are certainly welcome, you and the other students. It's really something that has been created for all of us to keep us connected. So thank you for participating and bringing other students to the conversations that we have every other week. This pandemic has been a very difficult time for so many, the social distance as it was called and it was social distance for a while, that we needed to find new ways to connect and interact. Now, that we've done so through Zoom and other means, it's physical distance but we are connected and having those conversations every two weeks were something to look for. A means of connecting and interacting and embracing normal, so to speak. Danita: The normal that we once knew and developing new relationships, because the alums who participate go as far back as the early 70s, up to the class of 2019. So we didn't all know one another before we started having these conversations together every other week and then, the side conversations that come out of that. In particular, having black alumni and students come together in late May and June, when we began to realize the unrest in the communities and the racial reckoning, that is again, at the forefront of so many conversations. It has been critical to have so many generations together to talk about what has happened in the past, what worked in the past. Danita: What patterns they have seen? What patterns we have seen, and how to determine the path forward so that this moment can be a movement, so that our actions will not just be transactional but transformational. That's been a core point of the conversations because it's time for change in our communities. In changing our community, we will change the larger community as a whole. Everyone needs to survive and succeed, for all of us to truly know joy and happiness in our worlds. Meah: I couldn't agree more. So Danita, what exactly is next for you? Danita: Meah, what's next? I'm actually moving in a new direction and my efforts to affect change in individual lives and communities. To be perfectly frank, in October, due to the challenges faced by Johns Hopkins University, the fiscal challenges presented by students not returning this fall, some really difficult cuts were made and my position was one of 114 positions to be eliminated. My last day was in November, which was hard and difficult, but I had already started to think about, to your point, what's next and an area that I had not explored fully but an area of interest for me was the climate and conservation. A couple of years ago, after Hurricane Michael was so devastating in many communities across the south, I was just stunned into a need to do something, to do something more than what I had done. Danita: Recycling wasn't enough. I began observing, and then my family started to observe Meatless Mondays as a way to reduce our carbon footprint by eating less meat on Mondays and at some times in the year, we just go completely plant based on Mondays. Even with that, I realized that my personal efforts were not enough. It's kind of like being a teacher versus raising money for the teachers to do their work to be effective in the classroom. In a similar way, wanting to contribute to the efforts in support of saving our climate and greater conservation. I wanted an opportunity to link my personal concern with the concern and commitment of others, and the actions of a respected and effective organization. Danita: Fortunately for me, I knew someone who was working in such an organization, the National Audubon Society and that was Sean O'Connor, who was the chief development officer as well as a graduate of a class in '92, I mentioned him earlier with CCS. We had started some preliminary casual conversations, even before I had lost ... before my position was eliminated at Johns Hopkins and I looked at Audubon, and the position as a dynamic opportunity to join a well-respected organization with expertise, credibility and a vast network of influencers and activists. Starting in four weeks, I will be the vice president of principal giving for National Audubon Society. Danita: I'm very excited to join the team. I get to work with the leadership and the development team and others in the organization to confirm transformational support that will facilitate increased and sustained change for the climate for conservation, for the birds and their habitats. For those of us who share the greater habitat of the birds, we human beings, Audubon is about the birds but I understand and believe and many o

This episode features a conversation between Payton Shubrick ’15 and her sister Jordyn Shubrick ’22.  While they share many interests, they have each made their own unique mark as leaders at Holy Cross.  They speak about Payton’s time on campus, and how her experience at Holy Cross has shaped her into the driven, hardworking, and trailblazing leader that she is today. Interview originally recorded on August 13, 2020.  Due to the ongoing effects of the pandemic, all interviews in season 2 are recorded remotely. --- Payton: I think that grit and resiliency though helped me as I think about some of the career goals that I'm striving towards now, as a CEO, as an entrepreneur. So that experience in many ways, Holy Cross becomes your playground, to get things right, so when you enter the world, you're really ready to move mountains. Maura: Welcome to Mission-Driven where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I am delighted to welcome you to today's show. Maura: This episode features a conversation with Payton Shubrick from the class of 2015. Anyone who knows Payton knows that she is a person on the go. Ever since her days at Holy Cross, she has been on a mission to change the world by changing lives. She was notorious for packing a busy schedule, successfully juggling academics and D1 varsity track with leadership roles in the Black Student Union and Student Government Association. This ability to manage her time and juggle competing priorities continues to serve her well. Maura: Today she blazes a trail as a cannabis entrepreneur, while simultaneously holding a full-time job as a home office technology strategist at Mass Mutual and sitting on numerous nonprofit boards. She is joined in the conversation by her sister, Jordyn Shubrick from the class of 2022. Their conversation touches upon the many shared experiences that they hold from their days on campus, while also highlighting the ways that they have each page, their own path as leaders at Holy Cross. They speak about the impact that mentors have had on their lives and the importance of giving back by paying it forward and serving as mentors for others. Jordyn: Welcome everyone. My name is Jordan Shubrick, class of 2022 and today I'm with my wonderful sister Payton. Payton: Hi folks, my name's Payton Shubrick. I'm a member of the class of 2015, and very excited to be doing this interview today. Jordyn: Very nice. Okay. So I think there's a lot of ways we can go here, but I'll start off kind of easy. Why did you choose Holy Cross? Payton: Well, if I'm being honest, Holy Cross, wasn't my first choice. I wanted to go to Williams and I was put on the wait list and then I committed to Holy Cross and got accepted to Williams, maybe two or three days later. For me it was kind of like the first major adult decision and I got it wrong. So coming to the Hill, I was under the assumption. I shouldn't have been there, I should have been at Williams, but then I also had the perspective of, I wanted to make the best of this experience really harnessing this notion everything happens for a reason. Payton: So coming to Holy Cross was a matter of fate, right? The universe had bigger plans for me and it all worked out, but day one, I was thinking about the Williams sweatshirt that was buried in my luggage, not necessarily all the Holy Cross apparel I would amass over time. Jordyn: Very nice. I think remembering when you finally decided to go to Holy Cross was like, "Oh, Payton's going, Holy Cross. Here we go." It wasn't any Williams or anything like that, but speaking about that, when you first stepped on Holy Cross campus, how were you able to navigate through those new experiences? Payton: And that's a great question. Day one showing up on Holy Cross campus, I was a part of the Odyssey Program, so as meeting folks like Dean Levine and Tina Chen who are so excited for me to be there, more excited than I was. I still remember, the first dinner and Hogan sitting with my family and then Dean Levine saying, "We're going to go around and say our names and where we're from," and her energy was just so infectious that it definitely gave me this warm and inviting feeling, one that I didn't necessarily have moving into the dorm, but one, I definitely left Hogan ballroom feeling. Jordyn: Nice, very nice. I feel like I was so young when you moved in, but how was that moving experience? Were you nervous, any feelings like that? Payton: Yeah, I think it was a mixture of motions. I mean, dad was being dad. So he was like, "All right, kid, make sure you get it done." Mom was crying, holding Frederick, who was how old, two at the time. So it was a lot of different emotions. I think for me I was absorbing it all and wanting to put a brave face on for you and Taylor, understanding one day you were going to go off to college and I didn't want you to see me break down and cry because it really is something beautiful to celebrate. It's an opportunity that not every person gets, to go to a four year college, especially going to a place like Holy Cross. So I really wanted to have this brave face, but of course there was the doubts, the insecurities, the uncertainty of it all and it was really just counteracting that with putting my best foot forward and going down to the common room at the end of day one to try and make friends. Jordyn: Right. Speaking of that great opportunity. As you thought about leaving your mark on campus, what groups, any experiences that you started to take on? Payton: Yeah. I was a student athlete, right. I was recruited to run track. The 400 was my event, but I never just wanted to be a student athlete. I wanted to be a student athlete and a leader. So for me, leadership took the form of the Student Government Association. I was the Director of Athletics for a while and then eventually became SGA co-president. I was also very involved and the BSU. I was co-chair as you are now and then became senior advisor and that was really important to me. Payton: I also was on the moot court team. So when I'm giving presentations now in my professional career, I think about standing in front of what was the "Appeals court" and I'm using air quotes because we weren't lawyers at the time, but we presented as such. So I just took every opportunity as a way for me to grow and learn and challenge myself in what I considered to be almost a safe space. There were people on the campus that wanted me to be better, that were there for it, whether it's professors and staff, and it was just taking everything as I could and soaking up. Understand four years goes extremely fast and you're experiencing that firsthand. Jordyn: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. You touched upon being a student athlete, which, I'm a part of the women's track and field team, but on the thrower side, so doing something like the mile warmup was a little bit different for me, but talk a little bit more about your experience about being a student athlete, but also, like you said, doing SGA? How did you come across those scheduling challenges and different things like that? Payton: Scheduling was definitely a difficult situation all around. I was notorious for having one of those written planners, but it wasn't the small pocket ones. This was like a thick binder where I was pretty much programming out every 30 minutes. On a good day I could do hour blocks, but really just making sure that I knew where I needed to be and when I needed to study and coordinating a lot with Coach A. Kudos to her for allowing me to say like, "Hey Coach A, I can't make the four o'clock because I have a meeting with Father Boroughs regarding race relations on campus. Can you meet me at 10:00 AM so I can get my practice in, but then also meet my leadership obligations?" but it was never a dull moment. Payton: I think the biggest thing I took away from that was intentionality. You can go through a day on autopilot and not really thinking about what you're doing or how you're getting it done. I really couldn't do that because I had so many things happening all at once and I want it to be as good as I could be for each of them. So it really required scheduling to be at the top of the priority list. I still recall sitting down Sunday morning in Kimball with my omelet and sitting there and just kind of figuring out what the week looked like and how I was going to try and make everything happen. Jordyn: Yeah, busy schedule, busy schedules, but as I'm hearing you talk, navigating through these new experiences and trying to figure out your schedule, when I say mentor, what comes to mind? Payton: When I hear the word mentor, I think three names really come to mind. The first is Ron Lawson, and this was someone I met during junior year at the 45th reunion of the Black Student Union. I recall meeting him and instantly just being in awe of the way in which he was so committed to Holy Cross and to helping ALANA students and engaging with the college. He was kind of like the man, the myth, the legend, right? He walked into a room and everyone was instantly gravitating towards him, and it was really just amazing to see. I remember staying in contact with him up and through graduation and him saying, "Stay involved, stay engaged. Don't take a break," and I joined the Holy Cross Alumni Association soon after via has nomination. So he's definitely someone I think of. Payton: The second name that comes to mind is Dean Peterson, having a black woman with a role like that at the college really was inspiring, just to see the way in which she would lead people, especially during some tough times. You talk about an off-campus party that goes wrong and she's the person on the front lines having to figure out how we do damage control and what that looks like, but then also really John Milner, who's my co president senior year, and I in on issues. We thought that running for SGA co-president, we'd make all these elaborate promises, new gym equipment for all of campus, all of these amazing things. And she sat us down and said, "Well, this is how a budget works at a college, and what you're proposing will increase tuition for everyone by X amount of dollars." And we're like, "We don't want to do that. We just want folks to be happy with the gym equipment," and so on and so forth. So the education she was able to provide was really beneficial and she really mentored and guided me in a meaningful way. Payton: The last name that comes to mind as Father Boroughs. This was a man that had the toughest job in terms of how do you please everyone, you have students, you have alums, you have staff, you have professors and constantly being able to create a path forward, despite all the angles that he was being pulled and pushed into. I remember Mike Brown being killed, another unarmed black man and going to his office and just being able say how painful it was to see this happen. This was after Trayvon Martin was also killed my freshman year. Payton: So it became this pain that's hard to describe and he was empathetic and compassionate and responded with an understanding that he needed to do something versus doing nothing at all. I think at the time we had a candle vigil, which was well received, and at the same time, he also acknowledged that he would never know what it's like to be a black man or a black woman in America. So this idea of including those that had fundamental differences on campus in a way that really created community, at a time where it just felt like there wasn't much community in the United States, was really powerful. So as I think about mentorship I think of those three individuals. Jordyn: Yeah, definitely. You hit on, I think, so many key points, but I love how you talked about today it's still happening and being co-chair the Black Student Union like you were back in your times, I think about any advice? As your sister I would love to hear any advice you have as you went through these challenging moments and now you're starting to becoming into that role of being a mentor. So what would you say to someone going through these challenging times today? Payton: Yeah, I would first say, as you think about saying in these times, it's only five years ago, I'm not that far out. I think the second piece is as a leader one of your biggest roles is really hearing and understanding the uncertainty that people around you are feeling and being empathetic about that. You're not always going to know exactly how someone feels and you have to be willing to acknowledge that, but also at the same time, be able to provide a clear direction or a clear next step that people can get behind, even if it's something that they themselves would not have decided. Payton: I think that's the hard part. You're not going to please everyone and not everyone's going to love the decision you make, but you have to understand what's best and at the same time, it's not about you being right, it's about getting to the right outcome, and that to me is true leadership. Jordyn: I'm assuming you took that into your SGA co-president type of feel to everything. Talking about that, could you say a little bit more about how that experience was for you, how it made you grow and develop as an individual? Payton: Yeah. I think running for SGA co-president was very memorable. The quote from Maya Angelou that really stands true for me is, "If you don't like something, change it, if you can't change it, change your attitude about it." I think when John and I thought about running it's because we want it to change the campus for better and it's at a point where you stop talking about something and you move into action. Payton: It was a really interesting experience though. I still vividly remember my track teammates and the football team rallying around this idea that I would be running for SGA co-president and supporting me. They were so excited about this as was I. We had a campaign where John and I had taken some stage photos around campus and we printed out all these flyers and then we'd run across campus, having people pose with it, and then say, "I stand with J and P," and all of these different things. It really showed me the community that was possible at Holy Cross. Payton: On the flip side though, it also showed me kind of the ugly underbelly that's possible because not everybody was a fan of me running. Some people were convinced I didn't have the time or the capacity, that I was doing it because I wanted the leadership role, but I wouldn't be able to back that with actually being a good leader. I think that grit and resiliency though helped me as I think about some of the career goals that I'm striving towards now, as a CEO, as an entrepreneur. So that experience, in many ways, Holy Cross becomes your playground, to get things right, so when you enter the world, you're really ready to move mountains. Jordyn: Yeah, definitely and I think you talked about community and other athlete students coming to have your back. So back in your days, even though it was five years ago, what was some fun thing you used to do on campus? I know for me, our generation TikToK is the big thing, DoorDash, Grubhub, those sorts of things. So what were some of the fun things you would do on campus? Payton: You make me sound so old, it almost hurts. The reality is when I even think about the iPhones, the running thing was, "Pass me the aux cord." You all are not passing around an aux cord. Ordering Domino's was definitely a thing to do while on campus. Instagram was really big at the time, there was hints of Vine, "So do it for the Vine," was kind of the running slogan at points in times on campus. Payton: I would say that being on the campus from 2011 to 2015, it was a mixture of different things. As I think about kind of the civil unrest we're seeing now, which, there were moments that right? My freshman year, Trayvon Martin died, as I mentioned, junior year, Mike Brown, but we also had moments of really coming together. October 2011, there was that huge snow storm during Halloween and we were still running around in our costumes at that point in time to looking at 2015 where classes are canceled once again, but now we're in the senior apartments and we're using whatever you could find to slide down the backside of William. So there was definitely our moments, and I think that's what really binds the class together, those experiences you have that other classes don't, based on what's current, what technology's available and what song is popular. Jordyn: Definitely. I'm glad I got that insight of Holy Cross between 2011 and 2015. As we switch gears and as you think about Holy Cross's mission being men and women for and with others, how have you lived by this and how do you plan to live by this in the next five years? Payton: That's another really great question, just because as I think about where I am right now, I'm starting a cannabis company, 6 Bricks, LLC, in many ways, being a love letter to the Shubricks, right? Six people in our immediate family and the last name being Shubrick, so 6 Bricks and being a black owned company, 100% owned by people of color, majority owned by women, in an industry that is dominated by white men, is a statement, right? But when I think about the mission of Holy Cross, taking that to the next step, it's not only for me to be in this industry, but it's opening the door for others that can also come in this space. Payton: It's unique as we think about cannabis, right? It's federally illegal, which means you can't go to a bank to get money. So how do you even find the capital? How do you make the connections? How do you understand this layered process of going between your local government, the Cannabis Control Commission, and back to your local government to eventually open doors, and then how do you do all that in the midst of a pandemic, right? Civil unrest, as we talk about black lives mattering and so many more nuances. Payton: So for me, as I think about what I'm currently doing, it's staying really engaged in my community, helping when I can, whether that's time, talent, or treasure. So sometimes I'm writing a check, sometimes I'm speaking with young women in the community that have aspirations to be an entrepreneur, and sometimes I'm on a Zoom meeting talking about budgeting with recent graduates. It all matters. When I think about where I'll be in five years, fingers crossed, I'll successfully have opened 6 Bricks and we would have expanded, but I've also been able to influence other entrepreneurs who want to be in the space, but are unsure of how to be, and that to me is really what success looks like. Payton: It's nice to amass a large amount of wealth, it's even better when you're able to share that with the community that you're from. Being born and raised in Springfield, Massachusetts, like yourself, doing this here in our community means a lot. Jordyn: Yeah, definitely and I think as you talk about community, what is your biggest driver? You talked about that community aspect. Of course you have family. If you think about what kind of pulls you through those good and bad days, what would that be? Payton: For me, as I think about it, there's very few things you can change, as we think about where you're from, right? I will always be Payton Shubrick from Springfield, Massachusetts, it almost becomes my calling card. When I think about what keeps me going, is understanding that I want to be an example for my community of what it looks like when you stay here and you improve those around you. Payton: For so long, I was told, especially in high school, "Do you want to get a really good job? Go to Boston or New York." Yet here I am, in my hometown, I am working full time at Mass Mutual. I'm starting a cannabis company, I'm sitting on three different nonprofits and yet I feel so fulfilled in what I'm doing and the example I'm setting that it really does drive me each and every day. Payton: I'd be lying if I also didn't say that you, Taylor and Frederick all our drivers as well. Being the oldest of four, you have three people looking up to you, in terms of what you're doing and how you're doing it and how do you handle a setback because life's not perfect, you don't get everything right the first time through. So those would be my biggest drivers. A community that I want to be an example for, but also my siblings, who are oh so important to me. Jordyn: Appreciate it. I would definitely say you have taken on this role of not only being my sister, but being that mentor at Holy Cross and coming in, in so many different aspects of my life that seeing you go so far, it's like, "How much more can she go?" You left a great mark at Holy Cross and I'm following up on that and trying to create that own path. As we talk more about Holy Cross, thinking back on your four years, what would you say your best memory is there? I know there might be a lot, but if you can pinpoint one? Payton: Oh yes, so many. Oh, that's tough. I would say if I had to narrow it down and don't get upset at me for this one, but I would say one of my favorite memories is probably graduation. Being on the field with my classmates and walking across stage and giving Father Boroughs a big hug, as I think about accomplishing something that when you enter Holy Cross there's so much uncertainty, you don't know the value of what you're doing and how it will get you across the finish line. Payton: I think it was such a powerful moment because I'd also received the George B. Moran Award and at the time I didn't know what the word meant. I won't lie. Like I wanted Presidential Service Award, and then I received that and I was like, "Oh man, did I do something wrong?" And then to realize what an honor it was. In that moment, it just felt really powerful to see that not only did I feel good about what I'd done about Holy Cross, but others saw the good I'd done at Holy Cross. It was a really powerful moment and when I look forward to, for you, as you walk across the stage at Holy Cross, regardless of what that looks like. Jordyn: Yeah, definitely. Going back to your graduation day, I remember sitting in the big stadium and it being really hot, but a happy moment of course, a great moment. Payton: Yeah, definitely. Jordyn: I know you're a big quotes person, so I'm speaking to that, what would you say a quote that really has stuck with you throughout the year? Payton: I would say because I was an athlete on campus, "Get comfortable being uncomfortable," was definitely a quote that became almost a mantra. I think oftentimes, especially as we think about the world today, people want to be comfortable, but it almost then creates this resistance to change. They want things to stay exactly as they are and that's just not the reality of how our world works. You always are encountering changes, you always will have something new thrown at you. So being comfortable, getting uncomfortable, whether that is with your car needing to get a new part or changing your career, this notion of uncomfortability has really driven me in. It's so funny to think about it because we would joke around as runners and say, "Get comfortable being uncomfortable because if you're comfortable in your race, you'll probably lose it." Payton: It became clear that in life, right? It's not to say everything's a win or a loss because a loss is really a lesson, but it's a lesson in how you become better. So this constant state of uncomfortability is almost a good thing because it makes you a better person for it. Now, if I think about my career or some of the things I've done, I wasn't comfortable doing it, but it made me a better person for it. So I would say that's probably one of my top quotes. in terms of just get comfortable, being uncomfortable. Jordyn: Definitely, leaning into that uncomfortability and things like that really does push you limits beyond. So I think you hit on so many great key points. Thinking about challenging times at Holy Cross, those uncomfortable moments, the hard times, how were you able to push through? Because you're always going to be in those uncomfortable situations, but how did you really push forward throughout those? Payton: Yeah. I think it goes back to one of the lessons that dad has instilled in us, which is, it takes a village. So for me, I've always been able to create a village for myself, a support for myself. So when I needed it most, it was there. So when I think about being unsure or uncertain, there was always someone I could go to on campus, whether that was Sandy Burke, OSI, to help me figure something out or Rob Jones. There was just countless amount of people that I could have these really meaningful conversations with and help me to figure out what I needed to know either about myself or the situation to push through. And at the end of the day, you know, mom and dad, they were only a phone call away if I really got stuck on something. Payton: I think you have to realize life is better when you're able to share it with friends and family that love you and support you and want to see you happy and successful, however you define it. So that's kind of the secret sauce to getting through things. You've seen firsthand trying to start a cannabis company is not easy, but it's really the support of knowing who can help you get through the uncomfortability of giving a public presentation or submitting an application that kind of keeps you going. Jordyn: Yeah, definitely. Village, community, it all helps with everything going on, so that's great. I think just to lighten things up and do a little fun thing, let's do a quick fire round, quick answers only, not too long, just some quick ones. Payton: I've been forewarned. I got you. Jordyn: Okay. Perfect. So favorite vacation spot. Payton: Panama. Jordyn: Panama. Good choice. Okay. Best restaurant in Worcester. Payton: Flying Rhino. Jordyn: Okay. I see why you took me there first year. What was your favorite dorm? Payton: Favorite dorm? I'm going to have to say Williams. Being in the apartments was pretty nice, you have your bathroom, the kitchen. I used it mainly to make chocolate chip cookies, but it was there, so that was awesome and I think at that point you're really comfortable, you're a senior. You said quick answer, so Williams. Jordyn: Okay, perfect. Favorite spot on campus. Payton: The BSU office. I must say I spent a lot of time in there and it became really good, but I will say the Office of Student Involvement became a second home over time and at one point Sandy Burke and Brenda Hounsell Sullivan had put up in that office, a sign because they called me Payton Olivia. Scandal at the time was a big show. Jordyn: Right. Payton: And so OSI became a second home, especially because they would have popcorn on Thursdays and Olivia Pope was notorious for drinking wine and eating popcorn. That's not a sustainable diet at all. I won't say I tried it, but BSU or OSI to answer your question. Jordyn: Perfect. Favorite class? Payton: Politics and technology with Daniel Klinghard, most definitely because at that point... I was a poli side major, so I thought I was going to go to law school, I thought that was my future. I was going to shake up constitutional law as we knew it and then I was accepting a job in IT at Mass Mutual. So this was a class that really kind of bred the two together for me and showed me I can create my own path, even if law school wasn't a part of that. Jordyn: Very nice. Favorite professor? Payton: Daniel Klinghard I mean, he did a really good job. I took probably two or three classes with him. I don't know why he continued to let me register for classes with him, but he was a great professor. He always challenged me and pushed me to do better. Good was never good enough and I appreciate that. Jordyn: Definitely. Last one. Favorite sibling? Payton: Oh no- Jordyn: I'm kidding. Payton: Now you're trying to get me in trouble. Jordyn: You don't have to answer that. It's okay. It's okay, but as you think about me being at Holy Cross and you also going there, I feel like I'd never asked you this question, but what were your initial thoughts when I first got into Holy Cross? Payton: I was very excited for you. This was something that I knew and I could speak to in terms of the experience and the growth that would occur. It's been a beautiful journey this far. You're entering your junior year and to see the ways that you've grown and develop just within your freshmen and sophomore year, your confidence, who you are as an individual, your opinion around certain things. I knew that Holy Cross could do that for you. If I'm being honest, that would have happened regardless of what you went. I think what's special for me is knowing that you're interacting with so many people that were there when I was there and that unique relationship you're able to foster and make it your own. It was so lovely during Homecoming Harvest to get a photo with me, you and Father Boroughs, and just to see the ways that he can speak to you becoming a leader on that campus, much like the way he spoke to me becoming a leader on campus. It's all just so beautiful as I think about it coming together. Payton: So it's been very exciting for me to see you grow and I was honestly excited, probably more excited than you were at the time. It was going to be special and it truly has been for many reasons. Jordyn: Yeah, definitely. I would say you were a little bit more excited than me. Payton: Most definitely. I spent so much money at the Holy Cross Bookstore that day, all unnecessary, considering that you were going to go to campus anyway and buy your own stuff, but I was extremely excited for you and still am because you have a lot left to influence on that campus, I'll say. Jordyn: Definitely. Well, it's clear that Holy Cross will always have an everlasting mark on your life. So I'll end with this. What was or is the best part of being a Holy Cross alum? Payton: That's a great question. I think the best part of being a Holy Cross alum is this community that is there for the rest of your life. I recently got together with some former track teammates and just being able to sit there and reminisce on all of the memories we had, but then also this fundamental understanding that you are now in a position to truly move mountains because of the skill set that Holy Cross has taught you, and it's not always the in-classroom learning. Some of my best lessons were being an SGA co-presenter or being chair of the Black Student Union. Sometimes it's understanding the best lessons happen in the hallways or falling down the Hill and realizing that you need better snow shoes. Payton: So you package all of that up, and then the beauty is you then get to interact with students like yourself, and it's a benefit that you're my sister, and you get to pass along these learnings and experiences and continue to build that community. It's just one of those things that's so beautiful it almost becomes hard to articulate, but it's something I'm most thankful for. Till the day that I stop breathing I'll be Payton Shubrick, Holy Cross, class of 2015 and that means a lot to me. Jordyn: Of course, yeah. The legacy left behind for Holy Cross, and it's truly the people in the community that make you want to continue to engage and continue to, "How, how can I get involved? How can I be with the younger generation, be with the older generation?" and it's just a beautiful thing to see. Payton: Most definitely, and it's never always easy. It's not perfect, especially in this COVID environment where on your eighth Zoom meeting, you're like, "What are we doing here again?" but it's the way you persevere and the resilience, and I think part of that as what Holy Cross teaches you and hopefully something you're able to give to others as you've received it. So it's awesome. So thank you, sister. Jordyn: Anytime. Maura: That’s our show!  I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be people for and with others.   A special thanks to today’s guests, and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you, or someone you know, would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu.  If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at The College of the Holy Cross.  You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I’m you’re host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of St. Ignatius of Loyola, now go forth, and set the world on fire. --- Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

In this episode, Holy Cross professor Stephanie Yuhl reconnects with friend and former student Meg Griffiths '04.  They reminisce about Meg's days on campus, and reflect upon the many ways that the Holy Cross Mission and its pursuit of social justice is evident throughout Meg's life and career. Interview originally recorded on July 31, 2020.  Due to the ongoing effects of the pandemic, all interviews in season 2 are recorded remotely. --- Meg: I think people who come to the dialogue table… they come because they’re in touch with something that means a lot to them, and they care enough to show up and listen and try to muddle through with people who they know occupy different positions.  And to me, that’s a sign of hope in and of itself: that people are willing to come to the table. And that they have a shared commitment to making some kind of change, making their community better, making space for more voices and rehumanizing the “other.” Maura: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I’m your host, Maura Sweeney ‘07, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross.  I’m delighted to welcome you to today’s show. Maura: In this episode we hear from Meg Griffiths from the class of 2004.  Meg can be described as an educator, space maker, practitioner of dialogue, crafter of questions, and human can opener.  Ever since graduating from Holy Cross, Meg has pursued mission-focused work. After starting her career with the Jesuit Volunteers Corps in New Orleans, her journey has evolved to include work in the nonprofit sector and higher education. Today, she works for Essential Partners, an organization who partners with communities and organizations around the globe, equipping them to navigate the values, beliefs and identities that are essential to them.  Her work showcases the importance of dialogue and connection in order to build trust and support mutual understanding among diverse groups of people.  Stephanie Yuhl, Professor of History, Gender, Sexuality, & Women's Studies, and Peace and Conflict Studies, reconnects with Meg to speak about her life and career.  Their conversation is filled with mutual admiration and respect, stemming from Meg’s time as a student at Holy Cross.  The importance of living the Holy Cross Mission is interwoven throughout the conversation. Despite coming to Holy Cross not knowing what a Jesuit was, Meg has lived a life devoted to the Jesuit values of social justice ever since. Stephanie: Hi, Megan, it's Stephanie. Meg: Hi, Stephanie. It's Meg. Stephanie: How are you doing Meg? I'm so excited that we get this chance to spend some time together and to talk about interesting things related to you and Holy Cross. I have to say, whenever I think of students that to me, have really lived out the mission, you see the T-shirts at Holy Cross that say Live the Mission, and I think that certain people actually really do that and you're always at the top of the list of that, so thanks for sharing your time with us today. Meg: Thank you, Stephanie. When I think about my Holy Cross experience, you are one of the people that regularly comes to mind. So, this is a pure joy to have some Zoom time with you these days in this weird, strange time we're in. Stephanie: It is and hopefully the listeners won't be bored with our mutual admiration society that we're having. Let's get started and let's talk about Holy Cross and you and then, we'll move into your life and career. Tell me why did you choose Holy Cross? What was it about the school that attracted you and how did you move through Holy Cross during your time there? Meg: Yeah. So, I was looking at colleges in the late '90s but before I actually stumbled into Holy Cross, this glossy, beautiful materials that came my way in the old school snail mail, my sister was looking at colleges and she's a couple years older than me. We are very different people in all kinds of ways. My parents had taken my sister to do a New England college tour and Julie came home, very uninterested in Holy Cross and my mom said to me, "Megan, I found the perfect college for you, because your sister is not interested." So, it was sort of planted in the back of my head, before I actively started looking at colleges and I just loved it when I stepped on campus. Meg: I think a lot of Holy Cross students say this, they have this experience of sort of feeling something when they come to campus. My mom said she could read it all over my face, but it really sort of met a lot of what I was looking for in a school at the time, which is a small liberal arts Catholic school. I didn't know what a Jesuit was yet but I was Catholic educated my whole life and that felt familiar in a good way and in a challenging way. Yeah, I landed here in 2000 as a wee freshman, and took me a little while to find my sort of academic home and you, Stephanie, were a big part of that. I meandered through all of my distribution requirements and learned that I wasn't a disciplinary thinker but a multi-disciplinary thinker. Meg: Got a chance to design my own American Studies major before that was a thing on campus, and you Stephanie, were wise enough really, to say yes to being my advisor for that- Stephanie: It was wise because then we got to be friends, and you did your senior thesis on Child's Play, which I think is really interesting and I think it reveals a lot about you and the way that your brain works. Can you talk about that a little bit, explain what that thesis was about, if you can recall? Meg: Yes, I can recall. I can recall sitting in the library at a giant table every Friday writing it, my senior year. I was really interested in gender. I was also a women's studies concentrator before it was women and gender studies and then, material culture, and so, I studied how doll play and child rearing manuals sort of told a story about gender and the role of women in early America and how girls were socialized to grow up to be mothers and caretakers, through the use of dolls and doll play. So, it's really interesting, kind of nerdy but lovely research. It was sort of the bringing together of all of the disciplines of my American Studies major and my interest in sort of gender, and culture. Stephanie: Yeah, and also, I think creativity, right? The idea of looking at something and you see something extensible in that, a doll but then, being able to read and interpret more deeply into it and try to think about what are the influences and impacts that this artifact could have? I think that that is in a lot of ways really connected to some of the work that you do about seeing things one way and then trying to shift one's angle of vision to see it another way to unpack its power. So, it might look like doll play, but I think it was really indicative of future trajectories, perhaps. Meg: I love that. Stephanie: So you mentioned that you didn't even know what a Jesuit was and then, your biography really kind of spent a lot of time in that Jesuit social justice space. So, can you talk a little bit about ... and that's what we would stay around mission, right, around how you're formation at Holy Cross, what are the sort of the things that you think are part of your Jesuit education at Holy Cross, and then we can talk about how you then put those into action after graduation? Meg: Yeah, I love that you brought up the Live the Mission T-shirts, because I was an orientation leader who wore that T-shirt many summer and I'm a little bit of a mission statement nerd, because I just love the way that institutions and communities and even people can take an opportunity to name explicitly what they're about and what they aspire to be. So, I think they're both aspirational and descriptive. The Holy Cross mission, I stepped into it in a variety of ways. I mean, my experience as a student is that you can't go to Holy Cross and not be steeped in mission, but I understand other people have different experiences of that. Meg: For me, I saw it everywhere I looked, and I sought it out also. So, I got involved in the chaplains office, pretty early on in retreats, and in singing in liturgical choir, and sort of embracing the social justice mission of Jesuit education and formation through Pax Christi, and going to the School of the Americas protest and participating in the Mexico Immersion Program and SPUD. Really, seeing the ways that a faith doing justice was a huge part of the college's larger mission and I also just ... I think, part of what I loved about specifically, the Holy Cross mission statement was that it was full of questions and when we talk about what I do now, this might become even more clear to people but I'm sort of all about questions. Meg: I love the ways in which a question can invite us into, again, aspiration and also possibility, and deep personal reflection at an institutional level, sort of organizational reflection on again, who we want to be and how we want to be in the world. The Holy Cross mission statement asks these super powerful questions like what is the moral character of teaching and learning and what are our obligations to one another? What's our special responsibility to the world's poor and powerless? How do we find meaning in life and history? Meg: These are what I have always called the big important questions and I love the way that my academic experience sort of mirrored that more spiritual formation in wading into those big questions and finding the nuance and complexity that comes through sustained engagement with those kinds of questions. There's no simple answers to be found here and I love that. Even though I'm someone who really likes clarity and planning and a clear path, there's a big part of me that also knows, we need to wrestle with the complexity and the gray areas of what it means to be human. So, those are the parts of the mission statement and the way that the mission was lived in my experience that really captivated my imagination. Stephanie: That's awesome and that notion of patience and ambiguity, which is also in the mission is a wonderful thing and it's hard for type A organizers, like yourself and myself, sometimes to sit in that space but I think that that's really probably where we're most human, right? Particularly today in our really Balkanized political discourse, it's important to try to find these spaces of more nuanced. So, let's talk about that a little bit, so you come to the college, you find your way, you figure, you learn what a Jesuit might be, you live the mission, wear a T-shirt and then you graduate, right? With this thesis in Child's Play where everyone is banging on your door to hire you to do something with Child's Play because they don't know that Child's Play is not a play, it's very serious. Meg: I think that was the subtitle of my thesis. Stephanie: It was. This is no joke. I think it's serious- Meg: Something about seriousness of ... Yeah, anyways, yes. Stephanie: Exactly. So, tell me a little bit about ... I know right after college, you joined the Jesuit Volunteer Corps, right? Meg: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Stephanie: And went to New Orleans. Meg: Yeah. Stephanie: Tell me a little bit about that decision and how this question driven impulse that you have, played out in that space. The kind of work you did there, and how maybe your sense of your own personal mission started to shift a little bit in that time. Meg: Yeah, so I served in New Orleans in 2004 to 2005. I served at a domestic violence shelter. We had a transitional shelter and an emergency shelter. My work there involved being a part of the life of the shelter, of the residential life of our clients and guests. I dropped into a culture that could not have been more different than my suburban New Jersey Catholic upbringing, although New Orleans is very Catholic, but sort of my sheltered, very white suburban, middle class upbringing. For me, that was a transformative year in terms of coming to see the lived realities of some of the things that I had studied at Holy Cross. So, I took great courses, like social ethics with Professor Mary Hobgood, and liberation theology with Jim Nickoloff. Meg: I had studied ... and also in my local volunteering over the four years that I was in Worcester, obviously, coming face to face with the realities of injustice and poverty and violence, and sort of had this sort of charity orientation. Definitely, Holy Cross moved me into a conceptualization of justice as a really important aim, more so than charity. They go together but really, that more of my activism sort of bloomed as a Holy Cross student. It was entirely different to move to a city I've never lived in before, worked in a shelter, live in intentional community with six other humans, doing all kinds of work in the city, and tried to live in some shape of solidarity, which is not really possible in some ways, because I was bringing all my privilege and my social network of support with me. Meg: I remember feeling like I saw a different side of the world for the first time, that I really was face to face with three dimensional humans, who were experiencing these things that were really sort of more theoretical in my head at the time, oppression and discrimination, and violence, and classism, and sexism, and heterosexism and all the isms. Yet, New Orleans is this amazing, cultural, rich, historic place that is so much an example of finding joy and having resilience in the face of so many difficulties. Of course, I left New Orleans, three weeks before Hurricane Katrina hit the Gulf Coast, and never was that clear, that sense of resilience and hope and richness of community than when I returned to New Orleans, about 10 months after Katrina hit to move back. Stephanie: Let's talk a little bit about that, because that was a really interesting ... an interesting move for you, I think. They joke that JVC graduates are ruined for life, right? That sort of tagline and I think a lot of our students would find it interesting and helpful, frankly, who also choose this path of service as a postgraduate moment. After that, sometimes they feel a little stuck about what next, right? Because you've just had this really intense experience, an experience in which hopefully, you've made some kind of impact but really, mostly it has an impact on the server, as we know, around that quest around justice and charity models, right? Stephanie: You opted to come back to New Orleans, right, to go back to New Orleans and the listeners might not know this, but Megan, Meg Griffiths was a member of the CIA and I think you should explain that, because I think it will surprise people that you are a CIA member. Do you want to explain that Megan and what called you back to New Orleans? Meg: Yeah. Yeah. So, I had moved up to Milwaukee. I was serving at Marquette University, an internship in their university ministry office, so that's where I went when I left and that's where I was when Katrina hit. I didn't have a television in my apartment. I was living in a residence hall. I just come off of a year of simple living. I do not bring a lot with me to Milwaukee. As the news of Katrina was sort of coming up to Milwaukee, I was really not as in tune with what was happening as I would have been if I had a television and sort of made a point to be following the news. Simpler times back then. I quickly started checking in with some people who I knew who were in New Orleans, and it became clear that it was being taken increasingly seriously, as Katrina was approaching. Meg: So, I think that the fact that I had been a resident of that city three weeks before Katrina hit, I mean, I just ... it felt like home still, as much as a place you've lived for 11 months, can feel like home but- Stephanie: Very intense 11 months, so that makes it more home, right? Meg: Yes, and I just ... the only way I could explain it is I felt like I was having the experience that my heart was still in New Orleans and was breaking for this beloved city and its beautiful humans. So, I made my way down several times that year when I was serving at Marquette. I brought students, I went down and met up with other JVs and at the end of my internship, I didn't really have a plan as to what was next. My supervisor at the time, at Marquette who is Jocelyn, she was the liturgist there, she decided she was taking a leave of absence and going to move to post Katrina New Orleans because she felt so called to do so. Meg: I remember so clearly that she asked me straight out, "If I do this, will you come with me?" Without even thinking, I said yes. That is a moment where I felt so deeply certain about the word yes, that I didn't even have time to think before it came out of my mouth. Then, I was like, "Oh, no, I just said, Yes. I think I have to do this." Stephanie: Wait a minute the overthinker didn't overthink this. She just responded. That's great. Meg: Yeah. Stephanie: That's a pure yes. Meg: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it felt like a call. I mean, it was a direct invitation- Stephanie: It was an invitation, literally. Yeah. Meg: So I said yes, not knowing what it meant or how we would pay for anything or what we would do. Another person joined us, a recent alum of Marquette, my dear friend, Stacy now. So, the three of us moved to New Orleans, rented a house started calling ourselves contemplatives in action, i.e. CIA. Stephanie: I love it. Meg: So, we built this fledgling nonprofit to help people ... to help receive short term volunteers into the city. So, our Jesuit high schools and colleges and parishes, and so many others but in particular, we had a connection to this larger Jesuit family, and people wanted to come to New Orleans and help rebuild and stand with the people of New Orleans and accompany people in their moment of pain, and hear their stories and bear witness. So, we created an opportunity that made it easier for people to find their way to do that work by helping place volunteers and connect them with local nonprofits and local community leaders and with the spiritual and religious and cultural history of the city of New Orleans. Meg: It was really hard work. I mean, physically hard labor but also emotionally hard work. I remember, Stacy, my colleague and co-conspirator in the CIA, say, "I came to New Orleans, to lighten other people's burdens and what I didn't realize was that I would wind up carrying them, with them." That's how we help lighten other people's burdens. Stephanie: Right, accompany them. Meg: Yeah, and that weight of living in what was, for many years after I was there, still a city in distress and in disarray, is emotionally difficult to show up every day and be present to that and to be able to leave was a huge privilege. That wasn't my life. It wasn't my community. It wasn't my home. It wasn't my school, that was destroyed and yet it felt like a part of me. I also knew that there was a limit to how much capacity I had to continue to show up. So, I made a commitment of a year of doing that work in community and then, stepped out of that work and into the next thing. Stephanie: Right, and that's, I think, really ... I just want to thank you for sharing that. I think it's really important for people to know that, you can step up and step in and accompany and do your very best and sometimes it feels like failure to step away, but stepping away is also stepping towards something else. It's not always stepping away from. This notion of sharing the suffering and sharing the stress, and sharing the work is something that very few single people can do, right? It's something that many people need to step in and come in and go. So, I think that idea that you were there, you went away and you came back, I mean, that's that kind of push, pull relationship. Stephanie: I think it's important for people, particularly younger folks who might be listening, to recognize that one, you make a commitment to something and you follow through on your commitment and then, it's okay to also make a different commitment. That's also part of the development and you're not abandoning people, you're not quitting. Meg: I mean, for me, it was about how can I find a different way to support this work. So, I think, also like, especially right now, in our world, when there's so much work needed, and so many people joining in the long struggle for racial justice, for the first time, finding your place in the work can be really hard and I think we sometimes ... I'll speak for myself, I think I sometimes think that there's only one way to show up, to be part of the work and the truth is, there are many ways and we are as different, in terms of our gifts and our assets, and our limitations, as you can get in humans. So, noticing what you can do, what serves the work, what sustains you and the work. Meg: Then, being okay with pivoting, when you realize that that's no longer the role that you can play or want to play or is helpful to play. So for me, I moved to Providence, which is where I live now after New Orleans and I took a job in higher ed setting and one of the first things I did was asked if I could start a program to bring students to New Orleans. So, I continued my relationship and my work and in some ways, built a much more sustainable way. My advocacy continues like super- Stephanie: Particularly you singularly doing the work. Meg: Yeah. Stephanie: Something that amplifies and continues. Yeah, the sustainability question. Meg: Yeah. So, I mean, not right now because nobody's going anywhere but up until last January, students were still going on the NOLA immersion trip from my previous institution. I built that program in 2009. It ran for 10 years, and it will come back I hope, when travel is a thing again, because the work in New Orleans also continues. The immediate response and rebuilding was ongoing for many, many years and yet, there's still ongoing work that we can do. Stephanie: Yeah, and I think that's really interesting, Meg to hear you talk about how you can best serve because sometimes we do have these default notions that it needs to look a certain way. I would connect this with the spiritual exercises, right? That idea of you have to find your way, right? Discern your way, not the way that the culture might tell you is the way or what does service look like, what does a simple life have to look like? We bring a lot of baggage to that and the hard work of reflecting on what is my path and being okay with that even if it looks a little counter-cultural, if it looks like someone's leading something or pivoting. Stephanie: I think that has a lot to do with letting go of ego. Did you think that had to do at all with ego, the idea of who you thought you were in that moment and then, recognizing there's another way of using your skills and gifts toward a larger end? Meg: Yeah, I don't know that I would put that language around it at the time but certainly looking back ... I mean, I did have a lot of moments of asking myself, like what am I here for? Am I here for the right reasons? Am I the right person to be doing this work? I mean, the answer wound up always being yes or enough of a not no, to stay. I think there are moments where in my own development and sort of self-actualization we might say in the fancy words, where I would look at people that I admired and try to be more like them. I think it was actually another of my Holy Cross mentors, Kristine Goodwin, who at one point, used this frame of sort of holy envy. Meg: That when we see people who live out values that we share in a particular way, we can have some jealousy around it almost, that like, we want to be as good, quote, unquote, as they are. I think there have been a lot of people in my life that have served as beacons or sort of examples. The challenge is to always stay rooted and figuring out how I can live out my own values in my own way. One of the things that I care really deeply about and how I show up in the world, is with a sense of integrity. For me, that means living in alignment with my values and who I am and who I've been called to be. So that there's an integrated self in that way of the word integrity, that what I say I'm about, I'm about or at least I'm trying real hard to be about it. Meg: The same with the mission statements being both descriptive and aspirational. I think my values are things that I hold dear, and I want to live out and I also have to aspire to because I won't do it perfectly, and I won't always get it right. Stephanie: Well, of course and I love that phrase holy envy, I have to say the reason I went to graduate school was because of holy envy. One of my professors at Georgetown, I wanted his life. I thought it was just remarkable what he was able to do and the impact he had on me as a young person. We're very, very different. Went to really different fields and different personalities. We're still friends and that's right, you find your ... you might have the catalyst, the inspiration. Then, as you emerge and you grow, you find your way, hopefully in it. That back and forth between achieved ... hitting the mark on values and aspiring to living that, I think that's really interesting. Stephanie: Tell me then about how in your life, if you can ... and you have a really rich professional biography, educational biography, activist biography, and we don't have time to go into all of them. So, I want to give you the opportunity to highlight if you can, either a moment or a choice or a career path, that for you, really puts this values in action, where that integrated self has found firm ground, and what kind of ... and how you manifest that in your work. Meg: I'll leave it to you, Stephanie, to ask the big old questions. Stephanie: Sorry, but you got to give me a good one example. I'm just wondering, is it your current work now? Is it navigating higher ed? Is it your work, which I'd love to talk about at one point with the LGBTQ alumni network at Holy Cross, which to me has been so important, so we can get to that unless you want to talk about it now. So, it's really up to you. I mean, I think ... like I said, the beginning of our conversation, you are a person, remarkably. I mean, I admire you so much, Meg. When you talk about being catalyzed by people, and you put me in that list, I need to share with you that one of the great things about teaching at Holy Cross is being catalyzed by your students. I mean, I put you in my list. It's true, though. It is true though and you know that and I would throw your wife Heather in there as well. Stephanie: I mean, you the two of you really live what ... from the outside and someone on the inside feels very real. A real life where you don't run away from the hard stuff and you try to stay true to your moral compass. We need more of that in the world, frankly and so I'm glad you're in it. So, having said that, what's a way that you think that that's succeeded for you? Obviously, never 100% but what do you think what's been a moment where you've been able to make those choices and live the way you seek to live? Meg: Well, thank you for that kind offering. When I think about how I've had to navigate and negotiate what it means to live out my values, I mean, I think what has been the ... one of the pivotal sort of negotiations has been around identity. So, you mentioned my beloved wife, Heather. She's a Holy Cross alum as well. Stephanie: And a former student. Meg: Yes. Although Stephanie can take no credit for the matchmaking directly but- Stephanie: Much to my chagrin. I had each of you in class and yet you didn't even know each other as undergrads, which just breaks my heart. See, fate happens, right? Meg: That's right. Yeah, so I mean, I ... So when I was an undergrad, I didn't believe myself to be anything other than straight. When I started to come to know myself, as at first, not straight, and then later claiming various identities over time, but then, partial to queer, because of its sort of umbrellaness of many things. When I was an undergrad, I imagined myself working in Catholic higher ed for the rest of my life, ideally, Jesuit higher ed. I wanted to ... I'm obsessed with mission and mission statements. I wanted to be the person on a Jesuit campus who helped the community live out their mission, of course. Stephanie: You pointed at it, you'd be fantastic. Meg: I was born and raised Catholic. In many ways, my Catholic faith was nourished in college, which is often, I think, not the case for what happens in terms of spiritual development of many young people but Holy Cross was a place that nourished my spirituality, and gave me an intellectual and theological frame for holding complexity, as I was sort of mentioning earlier. So, I took classes like sexual justice and feminist theology and liberation theology, that helped me make sense of a world in which multiple things can be true at the same time, both in the world and inside of a human. So, when I came to know myself as a queer Catholic, that was a lot to take in. Meg: Also, I felt really prepared in some ways to hold those identities at the same time. There is internal tension there, that is never going to be resolved and it's taught me a lot about embracing paradox or seeming paradox. I think that that process of negotiating my identity and trying to live out my values as a faithful person, and my identity as someone who falls outside of the church's teachings about what is right, quote, unquote, I think is what was part of the path of getting me into the work that I do now, which is the work of helping people hold tensions and manage internal conflict, and sit across from someone else who holds a drastically different opinion, idea, ideology, set of identities, and see them as human still, not in spite of but because of what they bring in terms of their humanity. Stephanie: We're listening to them and taking seriously in. Meg: Yeah, absolutely. Stephanie: This seems to me a good segue to talk about the kind of ... what it is that you do? Sometimes people talk about the language of bringing people to the table and having people, and it is sounds wonderful, but it's hard to understand what that actually looks like and I think about my own struggle right now, given our current climate and as an American historian, and the ways in which history is being bandied about and weaponized, frankly, and I feel like I know certain things. I know certain things to be true and you're telling me correctly, that multiple things can be true at the same time. Talking about how does a community respond to what's going on right now and to me, let's just use the example of Black Lives Matter, to me, this seems like it's not an ambiguous at all, right? Stephanie: You're either stand with Martin Luther King Jr. or you stand with Bull Connor and his dogs and hoses. To me, it feels like that kind of choice. How in the work you do, which I think is so important, because I feel myself getting more and more entrenched and frustrated, how would you bring someone like that to the table with someone who had a different feeling? What are some of the things ... this is very much mission. I mean, how do you do that and I want to ask you another question, what do you call yourself? I mean, I know your title is associate, but are you a teacher? Are you a mentor? Are you a space maker? What do you go? So, those would be ... I want to know more about how this actually works, largely, because I feel like this is a free consultation. Stephanie: I don't need to pay you for your expertise because I feel like I need this. I need this in family conversations, Twitter ... my goodness, the text threads, I need Meg Griffiths and your skillset. So, how do you do that work and what do you call yourself? Meg: Well, first of all, we all need a little Meg Griffiths. I mean- Stephanie: True and we need Meg Griffin's baked goods. The whole other story of your community making baking space but we do need a lot of Meg Griffiths, not just a little. So, how do you do that when we're in this moment, it's hard enough anyways, particularly, this reactive moment we're in right now. Meg: Well, let me start with, who I work with and for and what we do, and then, I'd love to talk about what I call myself and how we're responding to this moment. So, I work with an organization called Essential Partners. We were founded over 30 years ago by family therapists in Cambridge, Massachusetts. These were a group of mostly women who looked at the public debates around, say, abortion that were happening in the 90s and could clearly see patterns of dysfunction in these quote, unquote, conversations on public television between the pro life and pro choice sides of the issue. They said to themselves, "You know, these are patterns we see in family therapy sessions. We are familiar with this dysfunction and what these systems produce. These communication systems. These power dynamics, et cetera." Meg: So, they went to work and started playing around with an approach to dialogue that would begin to bring their tools to the public conversation. So we were founded as Public Conversations Project, about 30 years ago. We had a name change about five years ago to Essential Partners. So, what we've done over the last 30 years is fine tune, adapt, iterate, and evolve an approach to conversation around polarizing issues. So, what we do is we come into communities, organizations, schools, faith communities, nonprofits, anyone who wants us, and they usually call because they're stuck. They're stuck or they've gotten bad news because they got a climate study back that said, things aren't looking so hot or because they've had some sort of acute conflict come up in their community. Meg: They say, we need help. We don't know what to do. We don't know how to get out of these stuck patterns that were in. Stephanie: Even where to start, right? That kind of news is just so shattering if it's not your experience of the institution, but you know that some of your colleagues it is their experience. Meg: Right, right. Stephanie: Even that moment of recognition is huge. Meg: Yeah, that cognitive dissonance of, well, I love this place and this place feels like home and community and family to me, what are you telling the other people don't feel that way? Yeah, and other people are like, "Thank you for putting the data in front of people, because we've been telling you this for a really long time or we haven't been able to say it out loud because of fear of consequences, of naming our experience. So, I mean, we do a lot of different things but we usually start by listening and trying to get a sense of what the real ... what hasn't worked in the past. What people's hopes and concerns are. If they can imagine a preferred future, what would it look like for them and their community? Meg: Then, we do all kinds of things. So, yes, my title is associate. I talk about my work as being a practitioner of dialogue and of facilitation. I am a trainer, I am an educator, I am in accompanier. This work feels like the Venn diagram of everything I've done. It feels like the middle of ministry, which I have a history in working in ministry, education, I've done teaching of various kinds, and still work for justice because I think this is about helping everyone in the community feel heard, valued, understood and understand that they have dignity, and that their community sees them as having the same dignity as everyone else. Meg: So, we work with people to build skills, to try on new ways of speaking and listening and structuring conversation. We build people's capacity to lead and participate in dialogue and we also work with faculty to help them bring dialogue in their classrooms. We bring coaching and consulting support to organizations and leaders. We just try to ... I mean, when it comes down to it, what I think this work is about is helping people see what's possible, because when we're stuck and all we have are bad examples of destructive communication about hard topics, we have lost our sense that anything else is possible. We can't even imagine that I could sit across the table from someone who disagrees with me, and feel heard and understood by that person. Meg: Be able to hear and understand what their experience and how they've come to their beliefs has been. That's what we do. Stephanie: It's such important work. I mean, it is a real crisis, I have to tell you and I feel like in a differently trained way than you, I tried to do that in my classroom and yet, in personal life, things get more complicated and it's really easy to fight or flight, that you either fight the fight and sometimes it doesn't always have to be a fight. It can be a combination but everything feels like a fight these days or flight, which is just shut down. I'm just not going to deal with you. I'm not going to engage and there's a certain amount of ... there's a lot of disservice and violence in that, of negating someone entirely and yet, engaging when another person doesn't have the same skill set, and where my skill set might be really out of training, because of the world we're living in, can be a really, really hard thing. Stephanie: It also seems like it's a hard thing for someone like me, I would say, who's very outcome oriented, right? When I directed Montserrat, one of my colleagues said, "Okay, we need to process these program goals and outcomes all around assessment," right? I said, "Well, we did that, didn't we." She said, "No, we need to have more meetings and more conversation." I'm like, " Ugh, process." So, I discovered, I'm kind of a closet autocrat, that I ... the illusion of democracy but I really just, let's get it done, right? So, I've learned as an adult to slow down and listen and embrace process more. My teenage children might not agree with that but at least in the professionals space, I tried to do that. Stephanie: It's been a challenge for me, and I know that you also are a person who's outcome oriented, action oriented, but you're also a process person. So, what advice would you give us today, who are all having these conversations in our lives, professionally or personally, around this idea of process itself being worthwhile and not just thinking about the win or the outcome? Meg: Yeah. That is- Stephanie: Consultation, free consultation, but it's true and this is mission, right? This is exactly ... when you talk about your Venn diagram, again, I think you're very lucky and I think you've also been really intentional about creating that diagram. Some of it might be luck, but a lot of it is choices and most of us don't necessarily have as integrated of a Venn diagrams as I think you've been able to construct. So, what do you think? How can we do this better? What would you say to folks that want the outcome that weight with the process. Meg: So I mean, my thing is ... I often say this to clients who are like, we got to get to the business. We got, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, "Y'all, this is the work. The process is the work because if we're stuck in destructive patterns, we got to rebuild a different kind of pattern. We have to examine the processes that are getting us stuck and every process is designed to get exactly what it gets." So, if you're going to try and like, be different together, you have to have a different process. For me, I think about naming that with people up front, because we are so outcomes focused, right? People call us because there's a problem, an acute problems. Sometimes a very public problem, sometimes a lawsuit kind of problem. Stephanie: Right. Meg: They want to fix things and I think- Stephanie: Make it go away. Make it go away. Fix it and move on. Meg: Yes and hopefully, people when they call us, they're not trying to just check a box, they're actually trying to change the culture of their organization or their campus and build some new skills so that they don't need to keep bringing us in all the time if they can start to build their capacity to change and shift things themselves. Stephanie: I was thinking that it sounds like the kind of work people and organizations should do before the acute crisis. In other words, you should build your skill set before the crisis, because what I talked to you about was this idea of how do you bring people who are so outcome oriented, think of the process is the work because ... And also how do you do it when it's asymmetrical? Let's say you have the skills of process, but the person on the other end doesn't have the skills? How do you leapfrog them? Meg: Yeah, and so, one of the things that we do organizationally is we have a couple of certain organizational norms and principles. One is, we say, connect before content. So every time we're doing anything, a client call, a workshop, a dialogue, we build the time in to connect as humans before we get down to business. We do that really simply, we might ask a question like, what are you bringing with you into this conversation that it would be helpful for other people to know about as we prepare to like land in this conversation, or tell me about how your morning has been, right? It doesn't have to be so fancy and what we do in every engagement is we try to model a different kind of process. Meg: Bring people into that so that they can see what shifts. So, I'll say, I actually have done some work at Holy Cross, I worked with the chaplains' office with Marybeth Kearns-Barrett, who was trained by us when we were still Public Conversations Project back in the late '90s, as an early adopter of dialogue and we were able to work together to re-imagine the freshmen retreat and I trained a bunch of Holy Cross faculty and students and staff in our facilitation model to prepare to lead that retreat last fall. Marybeth, she took this idea of a connecting question into other work that she was doing on campus, and that she heard from someone who participated in that conversation, that it was the most seen and understood, that community member has ever felt on this campus. Meg: Because they were able to show up and tell a different side of who they are in that space. Because in our work lives, we're often put in boxes of ... and we introduce ourselves, name, rank and serial number, how long we've been here where, all these things that can actually serve to disconnect us rather than connect us because it can highlight our differences or different levels of power and status. When we ask a connecting question that actually invites story or experience, a little bit more of our humanity into the room, and we suddenly see each other in a new way, in a more three dimensional way. The same is true in a deeply divisive polarizing dialogue. Meg: That what we do is we invite people to share a story about something that would help other people understand how they came to their position on an issue. We don't ask people to state their positions. That's a destructive pattern of communication. We know what that looks like when it plays out when all you do is bring a position to the conversation. When you can bring a story, a piece of who you are and then when you can share the values that are underneath that story, you start to get a more complex picture and then, you ask people actually, where have you experienced internal tension on this issue? That is a completely different conversation. Meg: There are infinite, more possibilities for how that conversation can unfold and if we stick to our typical pro and con, or and against position conversations, Stephanie: That's really, really helpful to think about, and it makes me ... I don't think I did this in the class I taught with you but I do this political autobiography assignment that actually, Margaret Post back when she was directing the CBL and Donelan Center really helped me shape and she also does a lot of this kind of service work and scholarship. It's the same thing, I asked my first years to write a political autobiography without any guidance, just like who are you? What do you believe? It's very much a position statement, pro, con and then, through a series of interviews with peers and different reflective exercises and the readings and of course, over the course of the semester or year, if I'm teaching at Montserrat, they rewrite various points of it. Stephanie: It's so interesting, because slowly as trust is built and confidence, and a sense of community, they feel able to share, exactly what we're saying, when you said a piece of themselves. It makes that position so much more legible, and it makes it legible to the peer and the various peers that are reading those autobiographies or having the interviews. I always try to put people that I've ... have a sense of might be oppositional in the conversation, because it's easy to be oppositional on paper but when you're sitting at Cool Beans with a cup of coffee, and I say go to breakfast, have coffee, sit on the hovel, suddenly, I understand Meg, even if I might disagree with her. Stephanie: Suddenly she's going to understand me differently and 201, the students that comment, they love the assignment and again, it's built on the shoulders of other people and their help to me. They comment that, that experience of being with a peer talking about serious value driven questions, and needing to listen because they have to reproduce the conversation, each of them and then reflect on it, as part of the assignment, was the high point, right? That's just like a teeny little bit of what sounds like what you're doing though, that adults need to do that, right? So, these are these young people information and it's underneath this academic umbrella. Stephanie: Then, it's like, okay, your credential, if you've got your BS or your BA go out into the world, you're fully formed now and clearly, we still need that. I need that reminder, in my own life. It's funny, I feel like I can facilitate that a little bit with my students because of my position as professor and they have to do what I say, but am I doing it in my own life in the spaces that that needs doing? Meg: Well, I love that and that is so beautiful, Stephanie because I mean, when we talk about how to bring this work into the classroom, we have a particular approach. It's highly structured and it's structured because we know that that helps people feel safe enough to contribute. There's a sense of certainty about what to expect. They know that there's a container for the conversation to happen inside of and it can hold a lot. The container can hold a lot of emotion, a lot of disagreement, all of those things but you don't have to bring a 90-minute structured dialogue into your classroom, to create the kind of dialogic spirit that you have clearly demonstrated, right? Meg: It can be as simple as helping students, and then also to your point, bringing this out into the world, in our families, in whatever, right? Helping them to ask questions that will invite that deeper experience, that is behind their belief. It's about following our curiosity instead of listening to debate or persuade, right? The intentionality that we bring to our listening and to our asking of questions, we know has a powerful impact on what we hear and how a person responds. So, we come with a genuine curious question. We're going to get a really different response from our interlocutor or conversation partner than if we come with a question that's actually just a suggestion with an inflection point at the end of the sentence, don't you think it would be better if you just did this? Stephanie: Do you mean my mom voice? Yes, I know that, I've heard that once or twice. I always say I'm a better professor than I am a parent. I'm so much more generous and open ended with my students than with my own children. Meg: My God, please. Heather is like, that doesn't sound like a curious question. Stephanie: There's no fun in it. Yeah, I'm not talking ... That is great, I love that she says that. Look, bring your work to home. Usually, it's like your work at the work place and you're like, "Okay, bring it into this conversation." That is too funny. Well, I would like to write my congressional representative, Jim McGovern and suggest that he bring essential partners to Congress, because I think exactly what you're talking about is what we need and we need it frankly on local and state government levels, as well as institutionally what you're talking about, because I really think we are in a crisis and unfortunately, I don't believe that playing to just ... I mean, leadership matters and the tone is set from above in many ways, I believe in a ground up model too. Stephanie: I don't think that necessarily just notions of who's in charge is going to magically change how we have trained ourselves over decades frankly, really, it's not over a few years as a country but over decades to not listen and to not understand because people are angry and frustrated and then shut down. So, it sounds like if you were to describe yourself beyond, you need a new title. The associate does not encapsulate it. It's teacher, it's curiosity generator, it's ... you're a human can opener. You're a maker of space for these things to happen. We need a more- Meg: Crafter of questions and- Stephanie: Crafter of questions, that sounds like Hogwarts. The Crafter of questions and potions. Well, this is such a pleasure and I have to say I'm so glad you do this work, Meg, because we really so desperately need it. It must feel wonderful to do work that you really believe and see, as needed and effective. That's really awesome, so thank you for that. I'm going to shift gears and do you want to say one more thing? Go ahead. Meg: I just want to add, I think sometimes dialogue gets a bad rep because there are so many urgent issues that need action and attention. So, I just want to say that dialogue is a tool, and our approach has, at its heart, a purpose of building and supporting mutual understanding, and it is not going to solve all the world's problems but what it is really good at is building trust, building understanding and building social cohesion in communities that have been sort of torn or harmed in terms of their sense of community, and it can lay a really strong foundation for action, for a community coming to know and understand where its shared values and shared hopes are and then, moving toward that. Stephanie: Again, this is a ... it's a really helpful precondition. A really necessary precondition but I appreciate you saying that because I think, again, as historian of the ... and I think about Martin Luther King Jr. in Alabama, Birmingham and the City Council saying, "Just wait, don't do this now, wait. This isn't the time," and he wrote his piece why we can't wait and the letter from the Birmingham Jail. So, there does come a time when dialogue shuts down, because it's not really dialogue. It's not dialogue of ... sort of you're talking about, which is people on various positions and I'm saying sides because we don't want to be binary, occupying various spaces in the conversation, who are equally equipped to have a true dialogue, as opposed to not equipped. Stephanie: If people refuse to be equipped, and they insist on being equipped or failed to be equipped, then, of course, I understand why it breaks down and people have to act, because you're right, action toward justice is what the process is hopefully leading toward. Meg: Yeah and people have to ... I think people who come to the dialogue table, they come because they're in touch with something that means a lot to them, and they care enough to show up and listen and try to muddle through with people who they know, occupy different positions and to me, that's a sign of hope in and of itself, if people are willing to come to the table and that they have a shared commitment to making some kind of change, making their community better, making space for more voices and re-humanizing the quote, unquote, other and that ... again, process is an outcome. Stephanie: It were, you say, yeah. Meg: The outcome of that is increased trust, increase connection, increased resilience of listening and social cohesion that, as you said, can be a precondition for greater change in terms of structural change or organizational change, or societal- Stephanie: Yeah, absolutely and even an opportunity for decreasing certain kinds of behaviors, right, is also ... plus its increasing capacity, but not just dismissing a person because you think you know their whole bio or of course, that's how they're going to react and I'm sure that in your work, you come up against certain parties in various institutions, when they hear your plan, say, "Well, I'm not going to do that, right. That's not for me." That must be really frustrating because the idea is to build that trust so that, people who need it, who's all of us, that's the other piece, it's not just certain parties need to hear all, all the parties need to hear. Stephanie: I think that that's a really inclusive model. Awesome. That's great work. It's so needed, I want you to come to my house in my next Thanksgiving dinner, Meg and we'll have a consultation. All right, so let's shift gears, because we don't have too much time left, although I could do this all day long. I wish I could. I'm going to do something called speed round for fun. Meg: Okay. Stephanie: My gosh, what is it? Okay, and I'm going to ask you a series of questions and I just want you to answer in whatever way you want. Okay? They're really, really heavy questions. These are heavy questions that are going to shape the future of the world, ready? Favorite vacation spot? Meg: Wellfleet. The Cape. Stephanie: Beautiful. Favorite baked good that you make yourself? Meg: Homemade no knead bread. Stephanie: Favorite dessert that's a dessert, baked good. Of course. It's so funny that I say baked good, I'm immediately thinking chocolate and you say bread. So, favorite dessert, dessert not just bread. Meg: It's the Italian in me. Stephanie: I know. Right. Meg: I don't actually make a lot of desserts but I buy the most delicious brownie from The Vegan. I know, it sounds unbelievable. The Vegan bakery down the street has amazing fudgy chocolatey brownies. Stephanie: Delicious. All right, then that sounds perfect. I like that. My mother was a baker like that. She was like, I don't really bake, but I go to Paris Pastry Bakery and I buy the best stuff in pink boxes. What is one of your favorite places in Worcester, because you also lived here for a while after graduation, what's one of your favorite places in Worcester? Meg: Can I say your house? Stephanie: Yes, you're so sweet. Thank you. More importantly, what's your favorite restaurant in Providence, your current home? Meg: We have a weekly standing Friday night dinner at the Vegetarian Place down the street. It's Garden Grill and we miss them terribly while they were shut down and now, we get takeout usually on Friday night. Stephanie: Nice. Garden Grill in Providence. Excellent. Do you make New Year's resolutions or is it every day resolutions? Meg: I don't usually make a New Year's resolution. I try to reflect on the previous year, around that time of year. I don't really make resolutions. Stephanie: That's good. I think you live resolutions every day. Resolutions are outcome oriented. They're not process oriented anyway, right? Meg: Yeah. Yeah. Stephanie: Maybe what we should make are New Year's process commitments. We need to change that to ... change your title and change that tradition. All right, what about ... real quick back to Holy Cross, what was your favorite dorm that you lived in? Meg: I was the first class to move into what was simply called the apartments, my senior year, now Williams Hall. I was the senior resident director. The first ever in the senior apartments. Stephanie: Did you get a room with a good view of downtown? Meg: I was in the basement, so not the perfect view, but close to the nice balcony- Stephanie: They do. Meg: Yeah. Stephanie: That overlooked Worcester. What about if it's possible back in the early 2000s, your favorite food at Kimball? Meg: Gosh. Stephanie: It's gotten so good. Meg: Probably, froyo with cereal on top. Stephanie: Yeah, I think that's probably still, because that constant open machine of the froyo, yeah. What kind of cereal? Meg: Cinnamon toast crunch or something with sugar- Stephanie: There you go. Excellent and then, what's the best part about being a Holy Cross graduate? What's the best part about being part of this community and I'm going to add, what is something you would like to see more in this community of people? Meg: Well, one of the best things about being an alum is that I got to build the LGBTQ alumni network and meet a bunch of really fabulous and I mean fabulous in all the ways, LGBTQ alums and be part of creating a space where some of our alums who had never stepped foot on campus since they graduated, and had felt really disconnected from the college could reconnect. So, we have a network of hundreds of alums from across many decades and more than a handful of people have made it known to us that they have not had a relationship with the college until this group was founded and recognized and the college was so supportive when we approached them a number of years ago. Meg: Really, the request and encouragement of students at the time from the Abigail Allies now Pride group who wanted to see alums be recognized and organized so that they could see themselves in the alumni community, and that they could have support from alums. So that work has been really meaningful and my colleague, Phil Dardeno, from the class of 2002, has really held that work and steered the ship for the last few years. Stephanie: Wonderfully so and I can attest how important that group is for students. This model of, of being able to move through this place and be true to oneself and have a community that matters, that's wonderful. What would you like to see more from your alum group or from ... what do you what do you hope Holy Cross graduates can bring to the world right now? Meg: Gosh. Stephanie: It's a diverse group of people, so it's so hard. Meg: I know. Stephanie: A hard ask. Meg: Holy Cross alums are doing amazing things in the world and I love how we have Dr. Anthony Fauci out there representing some of what it means to be a Holy Cross alum right now and I'd love to see more storytelling and more ways to bring alums back together. I think the affinity spaces is the future of alumni development and alumni community because I imagine I'm not alone in this. My relationships and connection as a student spanned all four ... well, more than four, graduating classes because I was involved in so much. The idea of coming back for reunion is like, lovely and also, those are not all my people. I missed the people that I saw and had relationships with, that were years ahead and below me. Meg: I would love more opportunities for alumni to gather and now, that must be virtual. Also, for the college to tell the story of more alumni who might be not as famous as Dr. Fauci is and doing really amazing and important work in the world and that's why I love this podcast, but also, I think to amplify and elevate voices of alums who are doing ... who are living their mission and the colleges and then, have opportunities to like hang out together and learn from each other and like rub off on one another a little bit. Stephanie: Exactly, and then, that's that sustainability thing, right, that it fires in sustainable and relationships. That's awesome, Meg. I am so grateful for you, taking the time today to share your story with us and also to share your wisdom around process and relational exchange and hope. Whenever I speak with you, I always leave with a great sense of admiration, love but also such a sense of hope. You're a person who makes things possible and I thank you for that because sometimes this world feels like that ... possibilities feel, they're shutting down. They're literally shut down with isolation, right? It's just really revivifying to spend time with you and I appreciate how well you live the mission. Do you still have your T-shirt, we should have had you wear it. Stephanie: Maybe you have to find an old picture of you in the T-shirt to send ... to post with the podcast, of moving people into the apartments, right? Meg: I'll have to ask Brenda Hounsell-Sullivan, if she has an old orientation photo of me with the Live the Mission. Stephanie: I'm sure she does. I'm so grateful. Thank you so much. I will hopefully come down to Providence and grab some Garden Grill with you and Heather, and my husband Tony soon and keep up all the wonderful work you do. Thank you for being part of the Holy Cross story, Meg. Meg: Thank you for being one of my beacons along the way, Stephanie. Maura: That’s our show!  I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be people for and with others.   A special thanks to today’s guests, and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you, or someone you know, would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu.  If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at The College of the Holy Cross.  You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I’m you’re host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of St. Ignatius of Loyola, now go forth, and set the world on fire. --- Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

Welcome to season 2!  In this episode, Christian Haynes ’20 speaks with Schone Malliet ’74 about his dynamic career and the many ways that he strives to foster diversity, equity, access and inclusion for all. Interview originally recorded on July 30, 2020.  Due to the ongoing effects of the pandemic, all interviews in season 2 are recorded remotely. --- Transcript Schone: The question that I have now: is diversity, equity and inclusion, a committee or is it a culture? Is it something that you talk about around a table or it's something that is a way of life? I think that it's both. It starts with the talking around the table, but it needs to be the way things are, not something that you do. Maura: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. Maura: Welcome to season two. In this episode, we hear from Schone Malliet from the class of 1974. Schone's career path will keep you on your toes, although he claims that his life isn't movie material. After growing up in the South Bronx, he came to Holy Cross in the early '70s and successfully walked on the varsity basketball team. Upon graduation, he entered the Marine Corps and became one of its first black jet pilots. From there, he got his MBA and worked as a top executive in the technology and banking industries. Today, he combines this wealth of experience with his passion for making a difference in people's lives. Maura: Christian Haynes from the class of 2020 speaks with Schone about his life, career and his current work as the CEO of Winter4Kids, a nonprofit organization whose mission is to make a difference in the lives of youth through winter activities. As his first intern, Christian was able to witness Schone's hard work up close. Filled with thoughtful insights around diversity, equity, access and inclusion, their conversation highlights the many ways that we can all make a difference in our communities and the wider world. Christian: What's good everybody? Welcome to the Holy Cross Mission-Driven podcast. I'm Christian Haynes, class of 2020, which means, yes, I'm officially an alum and hopefully in five years, I'll be on the other end of this. But today, I'm the interviewer and my guest today, great man, a man that can light up the room with his energy and charisma, a man that's been giving me opportunities to become a better person from the moment I met him.... and I'm glad to call him a mentor, Mr. Schone Malliet. Schone: How are you doing Christian? I am really glad to be here. I'm not sure who you're describing there, but when I find him, I'll make sure I connect the two of you, okay? Christian: I actually compared you to Magic Johnson, by the energy you bring. Schone: Well, that's good because he got his game from me and everything he does on the court was because of all the things I hoped to be. No. Thank you though. Christian: He definitely did. How's everything though? Schone: Actually, it's pretty good. Well, it's mixed. With everything going on with CV-19, our society and the upheaval that's going on, it's mixed. I go through a day that has highs and has lows and a lot of thoughtful moments. All in all, its life, right? It’s not always good, it’s not always bad, it’s just hard. I think it’s making me better and hopefully its making all of us better. Christian: Yeah. I guess it’s all just about adjusting to these events. I guess that's the best we can do. The most recent things that we've been doing to adjust and by “we” I mean the Holy Cross community, the ALANA talks we have every two Saturdays, that you’re a part of. I think that you started right? You start that? Schone: We started that as a happy hour and it became talks. I think it's been an awesome way for alumni and students... A safe place to talk about the things and share what we feel, what we're going through and hopefully gain somethings. I gain insight from everybody there, especially the students and recent alumni. You guys are my heroes because I never stop learning, and I do learn a lot from all of you. Christian: Yeah, so with these alumni talks, one of the biggest topics is the social injustice issues that we face both on the Holy Cross campus and outside of it as well, around the world. And one thing that a lot of students say now, or a lot of alumni say now is that nothing has changed from when they were in school, whether it's '70s, '80s, '90s, early 2000s. A lot of things have stayed the same when it came to these social injustice issues, these race wars almost. How do you feel about that? Do you feel the same? You feel as if things have changed or things have stayed the same? Schone: Wow. I was listening to something about the athletic director, I think for one of the conferences and I think it was a conference of HBCU's and he was talking about this issue of integration versus assimilation. I believe what's happened and is still happening today is, while I've been able to evolve from us taking over Fenwick when I was there into which on surfaces, it's been a very good and blessed career, that I've been resensitised to some of the challenges that I went through in my career, whether they were explicit or implicit racism or the -isms that things did not really change. And I think I let my success lure me into believing that it was different. And talking to students, talking to my fellow alumni, revisiting my life as it has been and how it is today, the issue of being impacted socially, emotionally, because of the color of my skin and even how I live is still there. Schone: So, I have to have the talk right? With my son who's 21 years old about, listen get stopped, here's what you do, don't get stopped and then even to have to be sensitive to how, what, when and where are my surroundings, has let me know that this is still real. And so you asked about how do I feel about that, I'm feeling a lot of stuff but I'm also hopeful. And I'm hopeful because in this time which is different to George Floyd thing, the Breonna issue, all of these things now have been front and center for everybody. And so I don't feel that I am, we are as Black people are going forth by ourselves. I think that the whole of society has been brought into the experience. Christian: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. Seeing them on allies today. Many protests have been happening, even outside of the country which is kind of surprising for me. I always thought this was a American thing, but there are a lot of people of color facing the same struggles outside of this country. So it is great to have those allies all around the world. We're going to backtrack here a bit and go back to 1970s, South Bronx. When I say that, what's the first thing that popped up in your mind? Schone: I'm a projects kid right? 1710 Lafayette Avenue. Kemba Walker came from the same project which is again where my basketball skills must have went to because I didn't have any. And I look back at the South Bronx as not something bad, it was great where I grew up, it was alive. Of course as I compare it to now and we look at it, it looks different in terms of equity and access and those things but I am a product of everything that I went through growing up, raised by a single female and her having the insight to put me in Catholic schools, to be prepared for where I am today. I love my upbringing, I love everything about it. I wouldn't change it, I didn't know what I didn't have which is kind of a blessing because everything I felt that I went through was what I was supposed to go through. Christian: Rice was located in Manhattan? Rice High School? Schone: 124th Street and Lenox Avenue, in the heart of Harlem- Christian: Yeah, right in Harlem. So what was that like? A private school in Harlem? Schone: Well, first of all, at the time there were no high schools in Harlem. The student body was probably all of, was is it about 400 or 600? And was majority White in Harlem and during the time I went to school there, was the riots of the '60s right? And Rice was a block away from any transportation, buses and trains that I had to take two buses and two trains to get to school. None of the kids who went to school there ever subjected to anything negative. Rice was a great school, Felipe Lopez, Kemba Walker came out with some great basketball players but again that Catholic education plays a role in preparing me for today and Rice High School, it's interesting because I didn't play basketball in high school because I'd tell everybody that Rice High School, the managers could start at any other high school in New York City which is true because I was a manager but I got to play up at Holy Cross so I guess it was unique and it's a shame that it went out of... It's been sold and it's now a school for Harlem Children's Zone. A good legacy. Christian: And you said that Rice prepared you for today, how did it prepare you for Holy Cross? Schone: I think the group of individuals that were kind of the core... this group of individuals helped me create a voice and we started an organization called the Coalition of Catholic High School Students in New York and this is before cellphones and before computers and we not only were activists but it was a social organization as well and I think again it gave me the opportunity to find my own voice. And I probably learned to talk too much but I think that came from my grandfather and all of that and there are people who talk about me and my family, my father's side because my grandfather was a foreign editor on EMCM News. He also was a Black publisher but people in Harlem says oh, you're that Malliet family. All of you guys you could talk, so don't blame it on me, blame it on my heritage. Christian: That's dope. Sometimes I wonder for myself, how did I end up in Holy Cross coming from Brooklyn. So what was it like, the private institution you were part of, the Catholic culture that you were part of that put you onto Holy Cross or maybe a friend? What led you to stepping on the hill? Schone: I picked it out of a hat. I picked Holy Cross out of a hat and let me explain that. So, my mother who didn't have the high school education... So college was not within a vision of my mother or myself and during the time, everybody talks about the fraternity which was the class of '60 that came in '72 but Father Brooks kept recruiting. And part of the response to the riots of '68, '69 were that schools started to proactively recruit Black students and they actually used the PSAT's right? No, I guess that Merit Scholarship Qualifying Test, the practice test as screeners. So they not only screen African American students but they started to proactively set out invitations to apply. And they sent them to guidance counselor, and my guidance counselor pulled my mother in the school, said bring your mom into school and I said for what, I didn't do anything wrong and he said no just bring her in and I brought her in and he says listen, I want to talk to you about college's for Schone and she said he's not going to college. There's no money, there's no... and she didn't understand. Schone: He said no, I have his applications here, these schools he can get into and he should apply and we applied and there were some interesting schools, Holy Cross was one, the Merchant Marine Academy was another one, UCLA, Slippery Rock State Teachers College, John Hopkins, don't ask me why those schools. I picked Holy Cross out of a hat, didn't understand why, I'd never visited the campus and showed up there the first time and had not a clue of what I was doing and why I was there. I believe not in karma but spirituality that I believe in a higher power and a lot of things in my life, I probably would not have chosen on my own but I'm sure that I was guided and that was one of the best things that ever happened to me. Christian: Did you really pick it out of a hat? Schone: Yes, I really did pick it out of a hat- Christian: I mean, imagine you really having a bunch of papers in a hat. That's crazy, I mean I guess it is fate- Schone: My life has been interesting and you're going to laugh at this, I'm sure [inaudible 00:15:50] that when you look at what I've done in my life, like Holy Cross right? And the Marine Corps as a pilot and Technology's CEO and Pepperdine MBA and banking and running Winter4Kids, it looks like a great story right? It looks like an awesome movie, it's not movie material. There was no plan for those things. So I tell people all the time, I ended up doing all of that because I didn't know I wasn't supposed to and again I go back to, that I've prepared when the opportunities came along but the preparation went not only to Holy Cross, the institution but all the people in my class and who were ahead of me, I mean Ted and Nina Wells, to Malcolm and all the people that played basketball with, from Stan to RL, Rod and all of these individuals, even though I was abused by most of them. Schone: Not only abused in that social setting but prepared me for the rest of the world and when I think about Holy Cross, that critical thinking component is really the most valuable thing that I've ever been able to learn and integrate within my life and internalize because it goes to problem solving. And if there's anything that I would say that I really enjoy and characterize as what's my talent or thing I like to do, I like problem solving. I enjoy the complexity of it and trying to find which people than others are a solution that works. Christian: That's good to hear because there's a lot of problems in this world, so I guess we all going to come to you then. Schone: No, but I'll be more than happy to talk about it but it's true I mean, there's always a solution right? And it depends on how much time and energy that you can put into it and what the goal is. If the goal is to be right, then it's not going to work. If the goal is to find something that works for everybody, that's great. I think it was Barack Obama who spoke at Harvard’s graduation a couple of years ago, that said, if you expect your life to be something where you're going to get your way a 100% of the time, it's not going to happen. The thing you have to learn is what's important, how to compromise, how to communicate and decide that everybody has to win for something to be sustainable. Christian: That's also kind of boring too. I mean you don't even know what's going to happen. So if you're right all the time, is it really fun? Schone: I wouldn't know because I've never been right all the time and if I find anybody, I'm usually going to walk away from them too because... But I think that, those experiences right? And you know when you're interning here, the way that we work is, how do we figure out what's the best way to do something which I think is an inherent skill set that Holy Cross is really, really good at no matter what your major and giving you those kind of tools. Christian: Yeah, one thing I actually noticed at the office there, once you have the kids, something that we do especially junior year, senior year, a lot of collaborations, a lot of team work and it's similar to what you just said, trying to find the best solution to the problem given to us. And although I dreaded it at the time, working with other people and meeting them at 11 o'clock at Cool Beans, all that stuff, staying up until 4 o'clock, you know that. All that good stuff, it definitely works in the long run and seeing that from you and seeing that at Winter4Kids, in a business setting I can see that it's definitely a tool that I'll definitely carry for the rest of my life. Christian: But how were you as a student? Not just as a student but as a person at Holy Cross, on campus. Where you like some of the people I've interviewed before? Just partying all the time, I'm not going to mention any names but maybe you know who I'm talking about. Partying all the time, stuff like that. Where you a studious student or you were just that person that went about your business and wanted to graduate right away? Schone: Can I plead the fifth? Because it's good that my parents who are in heaven now, because I don't think they want to hear this. Going to college was a whole brand new experience for me because I had no plan for it. So I didn't know what to do when I got there, right? I was a studious, actually I don't think I knew how to study right? So I guess the best I was capable of doing but my capabilities were limited by my own faults right? So I would say that I enjoyed playing basketball, I enjoyed the parties, the social life. I didn't necessarily embrace the opportunity to learn as much as I could, the best way I could and now when I look back on it, learning is more than just the academic side, it was all the things I went through. Deciding to make a basketball team and go and try out was a big deal. I lived on the Black corridor and then moved off that into Beaven as an experimental house. Schone: I had my eyes open to a world I'd never known of and I think the core of my learning was exploration of opportunity and interactions and it drove me to actually sign up to be a Marine officer which most of my colleagues and you know said.... On Commencement day, after I got my degree I had to go get commissioned and I put on my uniform. There are people who said, what the heck is going on here because they had no idea and I believe that. So to answer your question, I was not studious, I definitely enjoyed the social side, I learned a lot. Could I have done better academically? Absolutely. I was so scared to look inside my... The folder you get with your degree to see that there was a paper in it because I wasn't sure that I had made it. Schone: But I will say that there is something that I learned about what college is supposed to be through that and it's truly academic side, but I think that college is the place to experience a lot of things. Matter of fact, has it a negative that shaped the rest of your life? Because had I not learned coping skills, I could not have experienced and be comfortable in a majority world, as I have been. Does that make sense? Christian: Definitely does- Schone: And I think that the coping skills were the personal interactions with individuals. Christian: Yeah, I always say that you learn more outside the classroom than you do in it and I think my GPA outside of classroom had to be full point on. Because- Schone: I wish I had put that on my transcript, because I could have used that but I think that when people say so what you got out of Holy Cross? Which is why I feel so much about what the school gave me as an opportunity. Like everybody, I came out of there with not feeling that the experience was the most positive at the time but when I look at it in context to where my life has been and where it is now, the will learning was so subtle but so life changing and in the context of me still being a Black man. I did not and do not give up what my essence is. I embrace it, I internalize it and I manage it so that I can be heard and understood and felt. Schone: So today as we talk about what we're going through, I'm talking to colleagues of mine who are White. They are calling me and asking me questions and I'm welcoming those conversations because I believe that if they are going to call and be courageous enough to ask the question, their intention is to learn and to be better and if I can give information from my perspective or what I feel or what I think, it gives them another data point for them to now have a choice about how they are going to interact with anyone who is physically different but surely those of us who are Black. Christian: Now after graduation, like you mentioned straight into Marine Corps. Talk to me about that, the decision going into it, your time there and finishing that time. Schone: Most people who go to college have some goal coming out of it. Being a lawyer, being a doctor, I want to go into law enforcement. Remember I had went in with no particular goal. I had no clue about what I was going to do after I went to college, so the story about the Marine Corps is an interesting one because at the time, Marines were recruiting officers on campus, they would come out in front of Hogan, set up a table and there'd be Marines in uniform recruiting individuals- Christian: They still do that? Schone: So at that time we were protesting, the Marine Corps recruiting on campus. And I say we because I was part of the protesters. And we stood around this table as only Holy Cross individuals can do when they protest. Maybe a 100 in silence for hours and the Marine officer in charge, Major said to me, you don't even know what you're protesting about. He said and you probably could even make it as a Marine. Now I don't know what happened but in the context of looking for something to do after college, I explored the Marine Corps, I took the test for this program. They asked me if I wanted to be an aviator and is said I don't have a clue because I'd never been in an airplane before, they said okay, well take the test, let's see what happens and I guess I did okay with that because I got past the application side, I went to Officer Candidate School, which was down in Quantico, for I think between my sophomore and junior year, no between my junior and senior year. Schone: 12 weeks of a lot of physical challenges, but a lot of it was officer leadership challenges and I got through it and came back to Holy Cross. Spent that whole year. Nobody knew that I had been through that. Graduated, got my commission as an officer, went to the Officer Training School which is the basic school then went to flight school. Flight school was interesting because I think I had the lowest grades of any candidate coming out of flight school and I was the third Black jet pilot in the Marine Corps behind Major General Peterson, the first Black General in Marine Corp and then Charlie Bolden who's a General as well. Charlie Bolden flew the light aircraft that I did but Charlie Bolden was the first astronaut, he was also the head of NASA. Schone: But this interesting about the Marine Corps was that, that was my first experience about being treated differently because I was Black. I was not a great pilot coming out of flight school, I was concerned that I got my wings because I was Black. I said to my instructor I don't want to get this just because I'm Black and he said Schone, I don't worry about you because you are confident, you're capable, you will not press yourself passed what your capabilities are and that's a good thing and sometime in your career, you're going to be okay and be a good pilot but up until that time, people are not going to think very highly of you, because you won't be performing at the level that they expect. Schone: And true to form, I didn't. At one time they challenged me on my ability from an academic stand point, whether or not I was smart enough to be a pilot and I had to use my performance and Officer Candidate School and basic school to show them I finished in the top five of the class out of 250, just to offset that. But subjected to evaluations both direct and indirect because of the color of my skin and I don't know if I accepted it or ignored it because I didn't know how to handle it. I will say that I went from being a very, very bad pilot to being a very, very good pilot. Then got out of the Marine Corps, but at the Marine Corps was very important, near and dear to my heart. A Marine, a Crusader, being raised by my mother, having family, legacy that's important and Winter4Kids, are all things that I'm extremely proud of and blessed to have had the experience because all those things helped me to be the person that I am both in business and personally. Christian: I love driving, I love being behind the wheel but flying a plane, I don't think that's something I'd ever do. What is that like? Anxiety levels have to raise, you more courteous. What is it like? Schone: Flying an airplane is like anything else that you do. Once you learn how to do it, I hope my son doesn't hear this because when I'm riding in the car with him driving, they may as well be a steering wheel and a brake on my side of the car because I'm pressing him out. But I think that, as you progress with anything, you learn how to do the basics and you learn how to take what you learn and apply it, which is skills that you develop. And then you get comfortable at knowing how to apply those things at the right time. But I will tell you that flying an airplane is interesting because it moves at 11 miles per minute and there's lots of things going on. So 11 miles per minute... So your thought process speeds up to process all that information. You don't skip steps, you just do that quicker which creates challenges for me today because some people say, well you get to a conclusion Schone, much quicker than everybody will and do you skip steps or do you jump to conclusions. Schone: It's really not true. What I do is, I process all those steps and risks and those things. I don't get it to a 100% but I've learnt to evaluate things, detail wise very quickly and then be able to make the right decisions but flying was and is one of those things that I got to do and landing on an aircraft carrier, all those things have created things that are special to me. And also, remember I told you that I did a lot of things because I didn't know I wasn't supposed to. They should told me, I should have been scared landing on aircraft carrier because now I probably wouldn't do it but... Christian: I got one question. I feel like a lot of people got to have this question as well, are all those buttons necessary? Schone: In an airplane? Christian: Yes. Schone: Every single thing that is in front of you in an airplane is something that's going to impact how long you live and how good you're going to be, at living that and doing your job. There is nothing in it that is unnecessary. Christian: I'm just asking, I just felt like there's too many buttons. I feel like at least 10% of them are just there to be there. Schone: No, and the interesting part about this, you learn how to scan them and you'd check on those things, not focusing on only one thing because you can't. But you'll learn how to quickly take those things in and keep your eyes outside. So you learn those things. Christian: So one thing, I don't think you did mention it. You went from Marine Corps to- Schone: Technology. Christian: Right. Technology in the '90s. To me that's pretty interesting because now that's almost like we're in an era where technology is part of our lives 24/7 but in the '90s, how was that? Schone: It wasn't like it was today. It was interesting because what we know of as a cloud, existed back in the '80s and '90s, that's what they called timesharing. But I do think what happened for me was, I always went to technology as... I was really interested in how I could use it. What could I use it for? And because I got my MBA at the same time that I was working for Computer Scientists Corporation which would use technology to solve problems. I actually used that technology to help me with my MBA and so I became a user of any technology to help me get things better, faster, sooner. So for me, and you know me, I have just about every piece of technology you van have but it's all about how do I use it? And how does it make my life easier? I think that today, we have a lot of technology out there. Schone: I'm not sure that we know how to use those things, like Apple creates things first and then you figure out how to use them later on. I still can’t figure out today, why in the world I've got a watch on my hand and I could call somebody, listen to music, tell time, manage how exercise I've got and by the way tell me if my heart is working. But if you think of that right, we didn't ask for all that. And so I think that it's evolving so that it helps us to live better and it did back then as well. Christian: So fast forward and imagine you go to banking but same time you got into Winter Sports with the National Brotherhood of Skiers. Now before we answer that one, I want to know what was it first time you got exposed to Winter Sports? Schone: I got exposed to Winter Sports, following my navigator when I was in the Marine Corps. We decided that one weekend we would go to Park City Utah. And on the weekends, in the military you train on the weekends, meaning you could use the plane to train and go to different places. So we decided to go to Park City. Mike Vizzier was a skier, Schone Malliet was not a skier. Mike Vizzier was an expert skier, Schone Malliet was not a skier. Got all the equipment, went to Park City, followed Mike up the lift and there's a lift called and a trail called Payday which had Park City people know is not something for a beginner. Followed him up there, fell getting off the lift, fell numerous times getting down and I promised myself, I was never going to do this again. I was cold, It was miserable and the immediate gratification of me doing something to get it right, was not there. I was not happy camper. That was the first time. Schone: Now National Brotherhood of Skiers which is the largest organized group of skiers in the United States, which is all African American had at the time, over 70 clubs now has about 50 clubs in multiple cities I lived in Los Angeles. I got hooked up with Four Seasons West and they socialized the whole process. Every weekend, we'd get in the cars and drive up the Mammoth. I wasn't any good then but happy hour helped so you may have been miserable, you may had a tough time but you got to go back and misery loves company. At least socialize about the experiences that you didn't really like. That allowed me safe place to get better at the skills, to enjoy it and help me get to where I am today. Christian: Now was the National Brotherhood of Skiers, was that a non-profit? Schone: Yes, it is, it was and at the time I was just a member of this club, but I also got into the coaching side of it and coached African American kids because the National Brotherhood of Skiers, their mission is to identify, develop and support Athletes of color who will win international and Olympic winter sports competitions, representing United States and to increase participation in winter sports. It was what gave me the experience to be a coach and then to take African American athletes who wanted to pursue that and to train, we went to South America twice during the summer time, which is winter there. We went to Switzerland twice to train. A great experience. Christian: Right. So you were doing that at the same time as the banking and stuff and I think for a lot of us that come from these communities that lack resources and those who are fortunate enough to end up in a college with more resources and get to network and all that stuff, our goal is to obtain as many resources as we can. One of those resources is money. So we try to chase the money but our heart also tells us to give back to the community. Did you feel like there was a pressure to do both or some type of... You felt like you were pressured to do one more than the other? Schone: I don't think any of those things at the time, were pressure things. I think it was things that I just wanted to do. I do think that somehow along the line of my life, I've been wired to make a difference in people’s lives. That's what drives me. And as part of my DNA, it's what fuels my energy and excitement, is to see what impact I can have on individuals, companies. Whether it's younger alumni like you or current students or races who want to pursue something, people who work here Winter4Kids. Because I realize that my life was gifted to me and the things that I've been able to accomplish and it took efforts and support and people around me, who cared enough about me to guide me. Maybe to chastise me, and even people who were negative to me gave me the skills to be who I am. So I think I've always been cognizant of the fact that I was the beneficiary of the people caring and helping me and I believe I internalized that, so that's what drives me to make sure that my team, they are as good as can be. Schone: That our impact at Winter4Kids on our youth has significant impact. That current students at Holy Cross, alumni, that if I can share my thoughts, my feelings, my experiences, not as directives but as information that it could be useful for them and for me with the things that they go through. Does that make sense? Christian: It definitely does. Definitely does. Now to today, Winter4Kids, you mention that a lot during our talk. Talk to me about that, what is it? What do you guys stand for? What do you guys do? Schone: Winter4Kids, our sole existence is to make a difference in our kids’ lives. Kids who traditionally don't have access to winter activities, through winter sports and the outdoors. That difference includes better health, through better and more activities but in which attitudes is about nutrition, their own future, the outdoors and opportunity for them to master something they have never done before. And to give them a platform to build upon so that now they have choices, can choose to go to college, can choose to explore a sport. To choose to ignore a practical or physical limitations to enjoy something different and new and the fact that over the last five years, it's been over 8671 kids, our kids and continuing to grow till we get to 10000 kids a year and we'll do about 34 hundred this next year and to be able to use Winter4Kids as a way to change lives, like you're an intern here and I have three Holy Cross interns this year. I think I have Oluchi, Meah and Emma, and they are shaping the future for us. It is an exciting and unique opportunity. Schone: It allows me to take a sport that I enjoy, an inert desire to make a difference in the lives of people, especially young people. The experiences of running a business, gathering the resources to do that and developing with the team. A sustainable plan is the most exciting thing I've ever had to do in my life and it's a blessing, karma, you can call it whatever it is but I get to do all those things a lot because of all the things that I experienced by my life. Christian: Right. Was I the first intern from Holy Cross? Schone: Yes. Christian: I was the guinea pig. Schone: Yes, you were the pioneer. Somebody once told me that pioneers get all the arrows but those that live through the experience get the first choice at prime real estate. Christian: I feel that. Now being a Black man and being a CEO of a winters sports organization, is that really strange to some people? And it definitely carries a stigma... There's a stigma that Black people don't belong in winter sports or they don't want to be in winter sports. How do you, with your platform try to change that? Schone: There's no doubt that winter sports, lacks in multicultural experiences or participation. In the role that I have today, has not always been received by everyone as a net positive for the industry and I ignore them. Christian: How? Schone: Well, the way that I live my life is that I can't control how people feel, I can't control how people think. The only thing that I'm rally in control of is what I do, my integrity and the values by which I live. And understand that, things like privilege and immunity come into play. That is, when you are first in an industry or sport or anything and you're being first is different. The evaluation of you is not the same as those who are from the majority are White. So, Winter4Kids, we have always been focused on what our mission is, how we do these things and create a culture of equity, access and emerging. I tell people today that at Winter4Kids, diversity, inclusion, equity, access and emerging, that's what Winter4Kids is. It's not something we do, so today we represent an example and a model for an environment that is culturally based on equity and access. Schone: Somebody asked me yesterday, how do you recruit people for a diverse company? I don't think that you recruit people, I think you promote the culture that is first and foremost, give everybody access to it, ensure that when they are in that culture that there's equity, that there's fairness across that and that you make it a safe place for people to contribute to the mission and to be themselves. We have a very interesting makeup of a leadership team and I didn't even think about this that, you know, of the 12 to 15 leaders on the management team, seven are female, three are male, four African Americans, we have Latinx. So that wasn't the plan, it happened that way because we are that way. So the question that I have now, is diversity, equity and inclusion a committee or is it a culture? Is it something that you talk about around the table or it's something that is a way of life? I think that it's both, it starts with the talking around the table but it needs to be the way things are, not something that you do. Christian: Yep. I think LeBron hit the nail on the head when he asked about this Black Lives Matter movement. I don't know what the question was but that was the phrase that many use, he said it's not a movement, it's a way of life and this is what... And I think that goes with the community versus culture issues that we have now. A lot of people just, whether it's businesses, companies, institutions giving us something to chase the dog's tail. Something to keep us busy and that sort of community thing versus culture thing where we want to feel this everywhere we go. Whether it's in the classroom, talking about school, whether it's in classroom with my classmates, professors, whether it's in the dorms, at the cafeteria, in the party, we want to feel included everywhere we go. We want to equality, equity everywhere we go not just where the legislation thinks it matters the most or where they think we're only arguing for or fighting for. It's everywhere we go. That's the culture right there. Schone: I agree with that. So now, I have made myself available to my colleagues who are White or of any background, to answer any questions they might have, without fear of judgment and an example is, I had one of my colleagues in the industry who's a publisher of a magazine ask me, and before they asked it, they said I'm a little bit ashamed, I'm sorry if this is uncomfortable, I just want to, and hopefully it's all right. And they asked me, Schone do I call you Black, African American or person of color. And I felt bad because that's where we've gotten to right? Is that, there are individuals out there who don't know what to say and don't know how to say it or who to and I say to them look, anyone of them work for me, because I go to intention. Schone: So if your intentions are good and you just want to understand, to be sensitive to me, then that's okay. I have to ask that about my colleagues who are Hispanic because now I don't know if I say Latino, Latina or Latinx. And I just learned that Latinx is the gender neutral side. The best way for me to ask and say which way, if I'm going to speak about race, which way works for you? I don't know if you know this movie, did you ever see Remember the Titans? Christian: That's my favorite movie, come on now. Schone: That is my favorite. Well, I want you to look up and watch the part of the obituary that was written in... I believe Jones died maybe about 10 years ago, whatever. But what Boone said about him and said about how they got together and I realize that the reason why I have hope is that I believe that we've created a culture where we can have conversations. I've had some people challenge me about the N word. About, have I ever been called that and I go yes even at Winter4Kids, not to my face but the question that some have is, how come on one hand the N word is a bad word right, and on the other hand it's used in music, right? And I said that's a courageous question for you to ask. I would say that it goes back to intentions again. When a person whose White used that word, it was meant to be demeaning, denigrating and to put us in our place. Schone: Within the cultural music, it has different connotations. It is coming from a different place and while the word is bad, which I agree that it doesn't have any real use today, that intentions dictate how things are received. Christian: I think you must have remembered the times... I think there are two things that bring us together, unfortunately one of them has been taken away from us this year because of COVID-19, and that's sports and music and we would just get together like the way we do when we're at concerts, when we're at sporting events and I think the world would be a lot... a way better place, a lot better. Schone: I think it will be. I think whatever happens coming out of this, we're going to be different. We're going to look at a lot of things differently, we're going to look at each other differently and not to minimize the trauma and the pain that COVID-19 and the race issues are causing us. It's going to be better, coming out the other side. I just hope it gets better, quicker. Christian: All this great work, that you've done for your communities, especially out there in Vernon, New Jersey. How do you think the Holy Cross mission statement, men and women for and with others, has helped you do what you do today? Schone: I actually think I live it, maybe. I don't know if I thought about it that way but I think intentionally I've been wired to do it that way and I think that the service of others right, is intentional. The responsibility to make a difference is purposeful and the opportunity to deliver on that mission is to be embraced and not only just embraced, but you need to not only feel it, you have to do it and you have to be it. And you could do all those things and live in this world and be successful and you don't have to sacrifice anything except for those things that are negative to do it. Christian: I think it's important for me to use this platform that I have right now to mention a concern that a lot of my friends have had with their mission statement. They feel as if some people are not included, when we just say men and women and when we mention others it makes people feel like us as the Holy Cross community is on top almost and we are regarding to other people that don't identify as or with the Holy Cross community as other, in a negative connotation. From my perspective and I'm pretty sure from yours and from a lot of people that I know, that's not the case. We want to include everyone and we try our best to include everyone and when we mean with others we do mean us as Holy Cross students and alumni, helping those who haven't sat on the Hill, who haven't experienced that Holy Cross lifestyle. And we are trying to help our communities, whether it's back home, whether its different schools, communities that we've never been to and all types of communities, all types of places in our life. Christian: So I just wanted to I just wanted to take this time to mention that. I think that is very important and maybe we may rephrase this mission statement, and I think that's just a legislative thing that we spoke about, but the culture thing is the most important thing and I think that's something that you are working on and I applaud you for that. So many other alumni are working on as well. Schone: I think that this brings up a good point, that language limits who we are and how we embrace what we does not. I hate labels, because when you define somebody by a label, you are either restricting them or you're limiting some parts of them. So I don't like labels because I don't like being in a box. I am not sure that I want to be... I'm not predictable and so you're right, I think language will evolve. I do think that the intention is to be as broad as possible but isn't that up to us as we take the mission and go forward with it, that our interpretation of that mission and what we do with that is what dictates how it’s received. So yeah, I think that its all of us at the Holy Cross community embracing everybody and what we do in the context of not just service but equity, access and taking the time to get to know each and every one of us as well as we know ourselves. Christian: Right. Has there been a mission statement that you came up for yourself or that you got from someone? That helps you do what you do now. That you live by today. Schone: Unimaginable dreams, inevitable opportunities. Christian: I should have known that. That's the motto for Winter4Kids, for those that don't know. Schone: But just think about that, in the context of where you are today and it’s tough to imagine the unimaginable right? But that's really what dreams are. And I really believe that I'm a living example of being able to do really, really good things most of the time and learning from the things I don't do so well to be able to create and support opportunities for others. Christian: Well Schone, I've got good news and bad news for you. Schone: Ohh oh. Christian: What do you want first? Schone: Give me the bad news. Christian: The bad news is that we're reaching the end of our episode. Schone: Wow okay. Christian: And the good news is we're reaching the end of our episode because it's the fun part, the speed run. So I'm just going to ask you some quick questions and I just want the quickest answers you come up... And if I ask why, the first thing that comes up to your mind. Schone: Okay. Christian: So, you ready? Schone: Yes. Christian: Favorite year at HC and why? Schone: '71. Christian: Is there a reason why? Schone: The reason why is, I got to make the varsity basketball team. When I looked at the list and I had made the team. Christian: Ah cool. Favorite dorm? Schone: Beaven. Christian: Favorite roommate? Schone: Bob Tomlinson. Christian: Saturday night, place to go? Schone: Wellesley. Christian: Three things to change about Holy Cross? Schone: There things to change about Holy Cross? The basketball teams record, that's number one. I'd like to see more interaction across cultures and let me explain, I know this is a short answer, you want a short answer but homecoming weekend, when you have the multicultural event, I'd much rather see that at the Hoval rather than down at the quad. And I'd like to see more Black students as part of the student body. Christian: Okay. Favorite sport? Schone: That I participated in or that I watched? Christian: Either or, it doesn't matter. Schone: My favorite sport actually happens to be basketball. The favorite that's to watch and the Warriors. The favorite thing I like to do is first track skiing, morning gloom slope with music. Christian: Okay. Besides skiing, favorite winter sport? Schone: Besides skiing, favorite winter sport? Football. Christian: Okay. Celebrity you admired growing up? Schone: Muhammad Ali. Christian: Okay. Favorite city to visit? Schone: Amsterdam. Christian: The least favorite job that you had? Schone: Working at UPS when I was at Holy Cross. Christian: Okay. Food to most likely make you cheat on your diet? Schone: Wings. Christian: If you could, and you could why you can't. If you could, five of those you'd invite to Winter4Kids, dead or alive, to ski? Schone: I'd love to invite to my mother and my father, who had never been able to see me accomplish this. Denzel, Martin Luther King, Steph Currie- Christian: Last one, filling in the blank. Schone Malliet is? Schone: Grateful. Christian: Well, Mr. Schone Malliet, thank you very much for taking this time to do this episode with me, it was a great one. I hope the listeners take a lot of things from this. Maura: That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be men and women, for and with other. A special thanks to today's guest and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the office of the alumni relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes, wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of St. Ignatius of Loyola, now go forth and set the world on fire. --- Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

In the final episode of season one, Maura Sweeney '07 speaks with Briana Crane '00 as the Novel Coronavirus pandemic is taking hold in the United States. As a member of the fundraising team at Feeding America, we discuss the critical work of her organization to serve the country during this crisis and how Holy Cross inspired her to pursue such life-changing work. Interview originally recorded on April 17, 2020. --- Transcript Briana Crane: I truly believe that we can end hunger in this country. And I think especially with the bright light that is shining on it right now, for very unfortunate reasons, there's a new awareness and people are able to see like, "Wait, this can happen to me, or it is happening to me." And this could be a time when we can say, "Look, let's use the next few years to figure out how to end this." Maura Sweeney: Welcome to Mission-Driven where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. In the final episode of season one, I speak with Briana Crane from the class of 2000. We speak in April, 2020 as the Novel Coronavirus pandemic is taking hold in the United States. As a member of the fundraising team at Feeding America, we discuss the critical work of her organization to serve the country during this crisis. After growing up in Chicago, she came to Holy Cross to play softball and was a member of the team when they won the Patriot League Championship her sophomore year. She jokes that she has a habit of being in the right place at the right time. With some helpful advice from a fellow Holy Cross grad, she applied her degree in English and education to build a successful career in nonprofit fundraising. Driven by a mission to end hunger, she credits Holy Cross for living its mission and inspiring her to pursue a career focused on serving the needs of others. Maura Sweeney: I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak with you today, Briana. Thank you so much for joining me. Briana Crane: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to do this. This is a new thing for me, so I'm thrilled. Maura Sweeney: Well, and I should say to everyone out there, it's new for me to be hosting this podcast from my home. So this is our special edition, work from home podcast episode. Briana Crane: Everything has to be adjusted these days. Maura Sweeney: Yes. Briana Crane: In some way. Maura Sweeney: Right. So we appreciate everyone's forgiveness if weird sounds come in or the audio quality isn't quite as perfect as we might like it to be. But Briana I know you're doing such incredibly important work with Feeding America and we've been talking about some of the really cool things that some of the positive things that have come out of this pandemic. Some exciting work with Disney and ABC and Elton John. Just to kick off, you're currently working as the Managing Director of Strategic Gifts at Feeding America. That must just be so critically important right now. Could you talk to me a little bit about the organization and the work that you do? Briana Crane: Sure. Well, Feeding America is the largest hunger relief organization in the United States. What it is comprised of is 200 food banks that serve every county and congressional district and parish in the United States. Those food banks serves 60,000 agencies, which are pantries and schools and community centers and places where food is actually handed out to people in need. Through that network, typically we serve 40 million people a year who are what we call food insecure. So they don't always know where their next meal is coming from. That includes 12 million children and 5 million seniors in this country rely on our services. And of course, this pandemic has disrupted a lot of things in society, but it's also increase the need by a lot, about 40%. Maura Sweeney: Wow. Briana Crane: So far, I know. I mean, in the last few weeks, 22 million people have filed for unemployment. So what we're seeing and I'm sure you've seen on the news are lines of cars at food distributions. And these are people who are going to the charitable food system for the first time in their lives. I've heard people saying they wait in this line for such a long time and they get to the front and people have said we're putting food directly in cars that have low and no contact distribution. But people will say, "Do I qualify for this? Does somebody else need it more than me?" I know. I mean, we're hearing that a lot, people they still have this guilt of going to the charitable food system, but there's plenty of food for everybody in this country. But in addition to being the largest hunger relief organization, we've also been a food rescue organization. So we're the largest food rescue organization in the country. About 70 billion pounds of food is wasted every year, and that doesn't include plate waste or what we waste in our homes. Maura Sweeney: Right. Briana Crane: So we rescue billions of pounds of that to get it to people who need it. But as you know, the food supply chain has been very disrupted in the last several weeks. Maura Sweeney: Yes. Briana Crane: So retailers don't have as much to donate, especially shelf stable food. And so the food banks have had to resort to purchasing food or finding other creative ways of getting it or even competing on the open market to purchase the food. So our expenses have gone up tremendously. It's a tragedy when we see binds of 10,000 cars at a food bank the same day that we see in the news that farmers are having to plow under or dump some of their produce and dairy farmers are having to dump some of it. The challenge with that is there's this huge quantities of not stable, not shelf stable food that's available, but there's such large quantities, it's hard for our network to absorb that and have the refrigerated trucks and be able to break it down to small household sizes in a safe way. I mean, all of it, but I mean, the good news is our network is so sophisticated and we've been around for 40 years and we really know how to be innovative and pivot through disaster. I mean, nothing like this, of course, but the government shut down last year and hurricanes and wildfires have helped us understand how to change our operations very quickly, which we're doing. Maura Sweeney: Yeah, yeah. Briana Crane: Yeah. Maura Sweeney: And you don't have a choice. Briana Crane: Right, right. Maura Sweeney: Right, right. But it's true. I mean, I know I've seen on the news all of the stories about how all of the food that would normally go to restaurants, or going to schools is a different type of ... It's packaged differently. It's set up differently. It's a different quantity than what goes into grocery stores, and like you said, all of these challenges in the supply chain that it's not as easy as you would hope to just divert from one place to another. There are different systems, there are different processes that need to ... Briana Crane: Right. With all of the restaurants closing and most people cooking at home, you're exactly right. That's 50% of the agricultural market is food that's close to perishing, because that's when it's going to go to the restaurant. So it is hard for us to rescue and hard for us to break down, but we are doing it. We're finding lots of ways. The food industry, government agencies, local state governments are really stepping in to help us find solutions. Maura Sweeney: That's fantastic. I do want to make sure we get to some of those success stories and some of those bright spots. Briana Crane: Sure. Maura Sweeney: Well, I also want to learn about you and about your background. These episodes are about you and about our alumni. So backing up a little bit, I'd love to know where you grew up and what your childhood was like. Briana Crane: Okay. Well, I grew up in Libertyville, Illinois, which is a suburb about 30 miles North of Chicago. I'm the youngest of four children. My sisters are 15 and 13 years older than me. So I kind of had three mothers in the house, which is awesome. My brother is two years older than me. All of them still live around Chicago. And my parents, they're all in the suburbs. I live in the city. I had a wonderful upbringing and being aware of helping others and being kind to others was something that's always been very instilled in me and the importance of family and community. I was very fortunate. I had a lot of advantages in growing up and I've always been very aware of that. Maura Sweeney: I can kind of get a sense that that inspired you to pursue the kind of work that you do. So how did Holy Cross get on your radar and what made you choose to come East and to become a Crusader? Briana Crane: Right. Again, I was very lucky. I, of course, knew about Holy Cross and my parents knew Holy Cross very well. I didn't have any relatives that had attended the school, but I played softball. I was looking for an opportunity to play softball in college, and I sent through a program at the time. I sent a tape out to about 300 and some schools all over the country to try and get interest. One of the handful of schools that called was Holy Cross. I remember coming back from the movies and having this voicemail message from the softball coach at the time, his name was Fran Dyson. I was so excited that they wanted me to come visit the campus over Labor Day weekend, and I did, and it was pouring rain when I ... Maura Sweeney: I swear Worcester has wonderful days and yet so many times the rain and the snow really interrupt that. Briana Crane: I know, I know, but poor Coach Dyson was standing out in the rain and we had gotten lost. Of course, my mom and I had never been to Massachusetts before, and navigating how to get there, especially at the time without our cell phones and everything else that we have. So poor Coach Dyson had been standing out in the rain for over an hour waiting for me and he was such a sweet man. I know. But then the next day the rain had stopped, the campus fully bloomed for me. And it's the most gorgeous place you can attend school at, in my opinion. I had such a wonderful time spending the weekend there and just fell in love with it. It was the only option for me. Of course, I had backups, but my expectations were high that I really wanted to go to Holy Cross. And I'm really glad I did. Maura Sweeney: That's wonderful. Well, I'm glad that you did get one nice day because I am. I'm impressed by the people who see Worcester in the snow, see it in the rain and trust us and choose to come to campus anyway. Briana Crane: The campus does know how to show off when it wants to. Maura Sweeney: It's true. It's true. I know. I always feel for the students because the campus is at its most beautiful in the summer and no one is there, except for the staff and visitors, but we fully enjoy it. But I know students always leave right as the peak is beginning. Briana Crane: Right. Yes. Maura Sweeney: Well, and so I know in addition to softball that you were an English major and you also completed the teacher education program. Briana Crane: I did. Maura Sweeney: And so many people, including myself, tend to have a circuitous route through their career. So I'd love to know a little bit about your decision to pursue English and teaching, and then how it shifted a little bit to what you're doing today. Briana Crane: Sure. I went through the program at Holy Cross and did my student teaching at Burncoat High School, which was a wonderful experience. One that I really enjoyed, and I'm very passionate about literature and sharing knowledge with others and really enjoyed teaching. But it was very hard after I graduated to find a position as an English teacher. I was certified in Massachusetts and Illinois. I was kind of looking in both places and I was working at Barnes & Noble, natural choice for an English major because I could spend hours in that store to this day, trying to kind of figure out what I wanted to do and should I go into a master's program that will give me an extra advantage? I did move back to Chicago after about a year being in Boston, after graduation because of 9/11. I wanted to be closer to my family, as a lot of people did after that terrible tragedy. When I moved back to Chicago, a fellow alum from Holy Cross who had lived in my dorm freshman year, called me and said, "Hey, I'm working for this consulting firm that works with nonprofits. And it's something that you would really love doing. And they hire from Holy Cross all the time." They recruit at Holy Cross. And it's a great training ground to get into this industry of fundraising and development. And it's something that it's becoming more part of mainstream professional development and now schools have tracks for development. But at the time I had no idea that it existed, but I did interview with CCS and started working for them. My first client was the Catholic church in Illinois on a campaign and then worked with every size and sector of nonprofit over the course of the next 13 years and really enjoyed the relationships that I developed there, the knowledge I was able to gain there and seeing different aspects of how the development departments work. I always knew about Feeding America and the food banks had been our clients as well. I admired how smart everybody there was, and I admired their mission. I thought hunger, that's such a solvable issue. Everyone in this country should have access to food. So when they started developing a major gifts program, one of my colleagues went from being a consultant to being in charge of that program and working with them full time. And he came to me because I was doing some recruitment and my life has been a series of being in the right place at the right time, I think. But he came to me and he said, "You're recruiting people and I'm looking to build my team. Do you know anybody that would be interested?" I just raised my hand. Maura Sweeney: That's kind of recruitment. Briana Crane: And he said, "Really? When do you want to start?" And so that was seven years ago and it's been just a dream job for me. And even during this horrible crisis, I feel very lucky waking up each day. And not only knowing that I still have a job, but knowing that my job is making a difference for people in some way. Maura Sweeney: Right. Right. I know. Because I think, especially in times of tragedy, it's when people are called to give and to help. And I think one of the most challenging things is when you feel like you can't help or you don't know how, and I just think I can imagine it must feel so incredibly rewarding to know that you really are making a difference. And like you said, over 40 million lives, that's huge. Briana Crane: Right. Yes. I mean, I think the real heroes right now are the people who are at the pantries and distribution centers and who are handing the food out to people and the volunteers and the national guard in a lot of states has stepped in to help where we don't have volunteers. I think those are the people that are really incredible right now. They're putting their health at risk. Maura Sweeney: Right. Right. Yeah. Thank goodness for these success stories and for these kind of beacons of hope. Because I think looking at our health care workers and looking at volunteers like this, our frontline, all these people who are stepping up, it really does make you feel good about people and feel good about our community. Briana Crane: Yeah. I do feel like for the most part, everyone wants to show each other kindness, especially now. And it's really coming out of how can we help each other. It's been an incredible outpouring of support, not just for Feeding America, but for every nonprofit that's involved right now. And even in small ways, what people are doing for each other to help out is really heartening to see. Maura Sweeney: Yes. Yes. Well, as you've transitioned to fundraising, do you feel like you've found your calling? It sounds like it's true. Briana Crane: I do. Yes. I love what I'm doing. I've never wanted to leave Feeding America, but I've had just through different connections, some opportunities come up where it was a mission that I believed in, but not quite as strongly as Feeding America or a position that maybe wasn't as direct front line fundraising. What I really like about fundraising is I get to work with philanthropists all over the country, very generous people, no matter what level of giving they're at. I get to help them feel more engaged with the causes that they're supporting and get them more directly connected and working with these wonderful people has been such an incredible experience and learning from them and understanding where they're coming from and their points of view. People give to hunger for many different reasons, and they give from both sides of the aisle and it's a nonpartisan issue. Maura Sweeney: Right. Right. Briana Crane: Yeah. Maura Sweeney: Well, and given the nature of this podcast being Mission-Driven, is there a particular mission that drives your work and that keeps you motivated to do this important work every day? Briana Crane: Yes. I mean, I truly believe that we can end hunger in this country. And I think especially with the bright light that is shining on it right now, for very unfortunate reasons, there's a new awareness and people are able to see like, "Wait, this can happen to me, or it is happening to me." And this could be a time when we can say, "Look, let's use the next few years to figure out how to end this." I think that motivates me and thinking there can be a future where everyone has access to food and how much stronger would our health care system be? How much stronger would our education system be and our workforce, if everyone had nutritious food? Maura Sweeney: Right. Right. Well, and how does the Holy Cross mission kind of weave into that and influence your passion for this work and the way that you live your life? Briana Crane: Yeah. Well, I mean, from the moment I stepped on campus, I was always impressed with the men and women for others and how much that was a huge part of the community there. I did take part in the student athletes speakers bureau, and working with the community as an athlete and mentoring young kids in Worcester. I think I mentioned to you last time we talked, it was my senior year when we had a major tragedy in Worcester that really brought the community together, was a warehouse fire, and 10 firemen lost their lives in that fire. The whole community came out in support of their family and their children. And first responders came from all over the world to attend their services because it was at the time of the worst first responder tragedy in the country. Holy Cross opened its doors to these first responders and they slept in the Hart Center. We really showed support and caring. I mean, we were literally a campus on a hill, overlooking a city that in many cases has poverty and problems. And to see that the campus community really cares about the city and the people in it always impressed me. And after that fire I saw the Red Cross. I saw the Salvation Army. I saw all of these nonprofits that were coming together to support the community, including Holy Cross. And I thought this is something that will always be important to me is being a part of solutions in my community. I joined the Red Cross not long after that and I've been a volunteer with them for about 20 years. Maura Sweeney: Oh, wow. Briana Crane: Yeah. Maura Sweeney: Wow. I think it's wonderful to hear that story and to be reminded of that today. Because I know I read something just in the past week that Holy Cross is opening up Lehy and offering that as a place for first responders in the Worcester area who aren't comfortable going home. Briana Crane: Oh, that's great. Maura Sweeney: Yeah. Briana Crane: That's great to hear. Maura Sweeney: Yes. Yeah. So it's nice to kind of be reminded of just how strong and how present that same mission is at the college and really them living that mission and the impact of it passing along to you to continue to live that mission and move it forward is really wonderful. Briana Crane: Yeah. Maura Sweeney: Well, and I know at the beginning we talked about the work that you're doing at Feeding America, and I'd love to know a little bit about we were talking about some of the fun things that are happening. Some of the people who are coming out of the woodwork to really enhance your work, to get the word out there about the great work that you're doing. I'd love to hear some of the success stories that you've seen. Because I think a lot of people need hope right now. Briana Crane: Yes. It's been so inspiring to see the people who are calling us every day and asking how they can help and/or activating on their own or through their channels, through social media, donating everything that they're doing to drive awareness. One of the things that was very special to me was I got to work with the team at the Cal Ripken Sr. Foundation and Cal Ripken is a hero of mine. Somebody who played softball my whole life and fellow baseball. And the foundation has always been very active in communities all over the country, working with boys and girls clubs and building fields. They decided very early on in this pandemic, they reached out to us and said, "Look, we're going switch. Our foundation is going to switch all its funding to Feeding America during this crisis." Maura Sweeney: Wow. Briana Crane: So we're going to discontinue what we're doing for now and Cal Ripken Jr. himself joined social media for the first time in his life to help promote it. Maura Sweeney: I feel like that's a win. Briana Crane: Yeah. And he posted videos and he's a very articulate, genuine, wonderful human being. He has a wonderful team and they've been just very helpful and a joy to work with. And they've raised a lot of money and awareness for Feeding America. So that was a dream of mine to work with one of my heroes. Maura Sweeney: Yes. Briana Crane: And Jeremy Lin, who's a former NBA player and he posted a very powerful story on his Facebook page because he's somebody who lives between China and the United States. And he's seen some of the negative effects of the pandemic and he's really worked to address some himself, it very much paints him as somebody who has residents in both places, especially. And he's been very thoughtful in how he's engaged with us and very generous. And not just the celebrities and the athletes who of course have wonderful platforms and we're so thankful they're using them in a positive way right now, especially while they're at home. But people who are just going online and giving $5 or posting something on their Facebook page or bringing food to their neighbors or offering to pick up food for their neighbors, all of those small acts of kindness, and they're not small to the person receiving them, are making a huge difference too. Maura Sweeney: Yeah. I mean, I must say ever since we started talking about this podcast, there's a ... My town is a small town in Metro West of Boston and we have our own food bank, I thought, "Oh, I need to make more of an effort with them," because I think like you said, starting in your own community helps you to see the impact of the work that you're having and really can help. I think those small acts do make such a huge difference. Briana Crane: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Maura Sweeney: Yeah. Briana Crane: Some of our partners are doing really creative things and fun things to not just drive support and awareness, but also raise people's spirits. There's a clothing line in LA, Fred Segal. I did an Instagram live with them last week and because they're a higher end clothing line, they're having all their followers do a clubbing night in where they get dressed up at night, most of them and put on makeup and the whole nine yards. Maura Sweeney: That's amazing. Briana Crane: And then they post it on their social media. It's kind of cool. Yeah. Maura Sweeney: I feel like I could say my two young daughters and I could have ... We have a clubbing night in at least once a day. It's a little lower class I would say, but we certainly could. Briana Crane: That's so fun. I'm glad you're doing that. They're going to remember that for the rest of their lives. Maura Sweeney: Yes. Yeah. Well, and so I'd love to wrap up with some speed round questions. Briana Crane: Okay. Maura Sweeney: If you're ready for those. Briana Crane: Sure. Maura Sweeney: Just some quick questions for quick answers. No need to think too much about it in advance. Briana Crane: Okay. Maura Sweeney: So since you live in Chicago, what's the best place to visit as a tourist? Briana Crane: Oh, there are so many. The architectural boat tour. Maura Sweeney: I've actually been on that one and it was fantastic. Briana Crane: I've been on it several times and I never get tired. I think it's the number one thing. And to see the skyline and be on the river, it's the number one thing to do in Chicago? Maura Sweeney: Yes. Yes. I agree with that completely. This might be controversial. Best restaurant. Briana Crane: Oh gosh. There are so many in Chicago. That's a tough one. I'll have to say Girl and the Goat. Maura Sweeney: Great, great. And what kind of food is that? Briana Crane: It's American food, but she was on Top Chef, the chef. Maura Sweeney: Oh nice. Nice. Briana Crane: Yeah. So it's one of the ... It can be hard to get into, but it's also achievable. Maura Sweeney: Oh good, good. Of your four years on campus, which was your favorite year? Briana Crane: I enjoyed every year, but I guess my favorite year would be my sophomore year. My softball team, we're still very close to this day. We had a Zoom get together a few weeks ago. And my sophomore year was the year we won the Patriot League Championship for the first and only time in Holy Cross history for the women's softball team. Maura Sweeney: Wow. Briana Crane: Yeah. Maura Sweeney: Oh my gosh. Briana Crane: Yeah. So that was really exciting and fun, and one of the best memories of my life with that team. Maura Sweeney: Yeah. That's wonderful. It's so fabulous to know you're still in touch. Briana Crane: Yeah. I've been to most of their weddings. We got together last year. It was the 20th anniversary of winning the Patriot League Championship. So we all got together in Connecticut and had a wonderful time. Maura Sweeney: Oh, that's awesome. Briana Crane: So those are friendships that will always last. Maura Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. What was your favorite dorm? Briana Crane: Mulledy. Maura Sweeney: Freshman year dorms. You can't beat them. Briana Crane: Yeah, I was there two years and I just loved Mulledy. It was the farthest possible from everything. Maura Sweeney: Yes. Briana Crane: But I love it. What dorm were you in? Maura Sweeney: I was in Hanselman. Briana Crane: Okay. Maura Sweeney: Yep. Yeah. I was in the first year program, so we were ... Briana Crane: Oh right, yeah. Maura Sweeney: Yes, so we were all in Hanselman, but I know from everyone I've talked to, it seems like wherever you lived freshman year, it just sticks with you. Briana Crane: It does. Yes. Maura Sweeney: Yeah. What was your favorite Holy Cross tradition when you were a student? Briana Crane: Oh my gosh. My favorite tradition, I think I'll have to say Cape Week was my favorite tradition. It was such a fun release after finals to go down there. I was with girlfriends and we weren't in like the fun, it was called a Thunderbird, like really the motel or something that was on the Cape. We stayed in like kind of nice houses, nicer houses that were like not close to all the craziness. So we had really nice fun time. I remember when my senior year of Cape Week was the last episode of Beverly Hills 90210. Maura Sweeney: Oh, wow. Briana Crane: So like 50 girls gathered in a room together to watch the last episode of Beverly Hills 90210. Maura Sweeney: That is another strong memory, I'm sure. Briana Crane: Yeah, it is. Maura Sweeney: Well, and what I loved about Cape Week too, is that everyone else thinks you're crazy because it's like 50 degrees on the Cape, but it's not a time to be going to the beach or to be vacationing, and yet all of Holy Cross kind of descends. Which makes it wonderful, because then it feels like aside from the people who live there year round who I think tolerate us for a few days. Briana Crane: Right. Those poor people. Maura Sweeney: But at least they bring business, so that's something. Briana Crane: Right. Exactly. Maura Sweeney: Who was your favorite professor? Briana Crane: Professor Wong, and she was in the English department and I'm not sure she's still there. I don't think she is, but she taught 18th century lit and she would often buy lunch for the whole class because our class time was right around lunchtime. I remember when I got Wong, that's what people called her. They'd say, "Oh, you got Wong. You're in trouble. She's really hard." I didn't find her that hard. I mean, she was challenging, but 18th century lit is challenging, but she was such a wonderful person and made coming to class fun and interesting. I think she was my favorite. Maura Sweeney: Well, and it's often those professors that people say watch out for them, they're so hard. Those are the people you learn from the most. Briana Crane: Right. Exactly. Yeah. Maura Sweeney: Yes. Yeah. What was your favorite class? Briana Crane: Kennedy to Watergate was my favorite class. It was a history class and I spent ... It was really interesting, of course, time period in United States history. But I spent hours in the Holy Cross archives because I was not just ... One of my term papers was about Holy Cross during that time period and what the campus went through, and so much happened at Holy Cross during that time. We talked about the hepatitis outbreak with the football team that happened around that period, and going through the newspaper articles and even the campus, Clarence Thomas was the editor of the paper and lived in the basement of one of the dorms. It was just so interesting everything that happened on campus during that time. So that was my favorite class and really resonated with me, always stayed with me. Maura Sweeney: That is cool. I mean, it's true. I mean, Holy Cross is a long history, but it's kind of wild to look back, not that far ago and to see the kind of impact and kind of connections that there are. So I have one last question for you. Briana Crane: Okay. Maura Sweeney: What's the best thing about being a Holy Cross alumna? Briana Crane: The best thing is the sense of community that you keep for the rest of your life. I think anytime you run into another Holy Cross alum, whether you knew them or not, or whatever class they're from, there's a sense of community and connection to them. And it's been very impactful for me throughout my career. It's been every job I've had or career choice I've made have been through connections from Holy Cross. And that's something that's very important to me to pass on. I just got an email this morning about the virtual shadowing program and who I'm getting paired up with, and I've been able to do that for several years and I really enjoy it and encouraging young kids the way I was encouraged by older alumni, I think that's a big thing. There's a robust alumni group here in Chicago. Maura Sweeney: Well, and it's one of the wonderful things too, is that no matter where you go in the world, somehow Holy Cross people tend to come out of the woodwork in a really wonderful way. Briana Crane: They do. Absolutely. Maura Sweeney: Yes. Well, this has been a real pleasure, Briana. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me about your history, your background and just the incredible work that you're doing right now. Briana Crane: Thank you. Thank you for doing this and doing this different format with me. I really appreciate it. Maura Sweeney: Oh my pleasure. And to all of you out there, thanks for putting up with any background noise that we might have.  I’ve got a barking dog upstairs who's dying for something. Thank you very much. Take care, Briana. Briana Crane: All right. You too. Take care, everybody. Maura Sweeney: That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be men and women for and with others. A special thanks to today's guest, and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu.  If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, "Now, go forth and set the world on fire." --- Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

Former law clerk John Markey '86 is joined by the Judge’s granddaughter, Bridget Power, and together they speak with Judge Harrington '55 about his family as well as his illustrious career. Interview originally recorded on February 21, 2020. --- Transcript Judge Harrington: I got a lot of breaks in life by being a member of the Holy Cross family through Ed Hanify '33 and Arthur Garrity '41. People have to help you. You can't do much by yourself. And so you have to pay back. I think the greatest joy, it seems a cliche to say, but it is, the great joy you get life is to serve others, if you can help other people. First of all, your family, help them and then other people. Maura Sweeney: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. In this episode, we hear from the Honorable Edward F. Harrington from the class of 1955. In 1988, Ronald Reagan nominated Judge Harrington to a lifetime appointment to serve as a federal judge for the United States District Court for the District of Massachusetts. He began serving as a federal judge in 1988 and assumed senior status in 2001. In 2019, Judge Harrington was awarded the inaugural Edward Bennett Williams '41 Lifetime Achievement Award by the Holy Cross Lawyers Association. The award is given on an annual basis for making a positive impact on the administration of justice and demonstrated loyalty to Holy Cross. Former law clerk John Markey from the class of 1986 is joined by the judge's granddaughter, Bridget Power, and together they speak with the judge about his family as well as his illustrious career. From running into Ernest Hemingway during his time in the Navy, to supporting civil rights leaders in Mississippi in the early '60s, to participating in a trial against Edward Bennett Williams in 1964, their conversation is filled with inspiring and memorable stories. Every step of the way, the Holy Cross network showed its power and influence. A remarkable, yet humble figure, Judge Harrington models the incredible impact that can be made with the foundation of a Holy Cross education. John Markey: Hello, this is John Markey from the Holy Cross class of 1986, here to interview Judge Edward F. Harrington, Holy Cross class of 1955 and the recipient of the first ever Edward Bennett Williams Lifetime Achievement Award offered by the Holy Cross Lawyers Association and I'm here with his granddaughter Bridget Power. Bridget Power: Hi there. John Markey: Judge, if you just want to introduce yourself? Judge Harrington: My name's Ted Harrington, class of 1955. Bridget Power: I'm Bridget Power. I did not go to Holy Cross but my parents both went here. My grandfather, Ted Harrington, many of my aunts, uncles, relatives, my great grandfather, John J. Harrington, and my grandpa's two brothers, Dan and John Harrington. Didn't go here but feel very connected to Holy Cross. Bridget Power: Gramps, I know we've talked about your childhood. I'm wondering if you can share with the audience a little bit about what it was like to be born right after the depression in Fall River, Mass. And what it was like to grow up there. Judge Harrington: Well, I grew up in Fall River, which was a middle town. I grew up in the heart of the depression in 1933. It was a different world. Money was not that available. Although I was very lucky in that my father was a schoolteacher and had a full job. I grew up in, I would say, an Irish American neighborhood and our concerns were education, sports, politics, religion. I know in my family since both of my parents were teachers, education was very important to us. I was lucky enough to have books in the house and education as maybe one of the most important objects of my young life. Bridget Power: Can you say a little bit more about what your education was like? Judge Harrington: Well, I went to a parochial school which had about 900 students. It was the parish school. In Fall River, in that era, there were 27 parishes. It was a very strong Catholic community. We had a very good grammar school and then I went to the public high school where my father taught and it was a rigorous education at the Durfee High School. And I always felt that I was very lucky to have had the educational background that I received in Fall River and I came to Holy Cross in the fall of 1951, very prepared for the rigors of Holy Cross' education. Bridget Power: Do you remember your first time visiting Holy Cross when your dad had gone to Holy Cross? Judge Harrington: My first memory of Holy Cross was in 1942. I was at Fenway Park in the great football game between Boston College and Holy Cross. At that date, Boston College was the number one football team in America. Holy Cross had a lackluster season. However, Holy Cross beat Boston College at Fenway Park in November of 1942, just after the war started, 55-12, in the greatest upset in the history of New England Sports. That was my first connection with Holy Cross, although it was in Boston in Fenway Park. I think the first time I came here although my father used to come up to football games, I came here in I think 1950 to meet some of the officials here to see if I could get in to Holy Cross in the next year. John Markey: Judge, that 55-12 game was that the famous Coconut Grove fire game, if you want to just tell us a little bit of that story afterwards? The great thing on behalf of Boston College, Boston College if they had won that game, were going to celebrate at the Coconut Grove Nightclub in Boston. Because of their devastating defeat, they called off the celebratory dinner that evening. However, 500 people died in a fire that night at the Coconut Grove Nightclub, at that time, the biggest arson type of damage in the history of the United States. So in a way Boston College and the people who were their fans were saved for not going to the Coconut Grove, which is still... I don't think it's ever been... There's been no fire since, I believe, that's ever come close maybe in the United States. John Markey: Judge, you mentioned growing up in Florida with lots of books in the house either from your parents are from your aunts who are also teachers. Do you recall particular books that they encouraged you to read or books that you read during your middle school or high school years that were formative or authors that you liked? Judge Harrington: Well, I think my two most influential authors from high school and also here at Holy Cross was William Makepeace Thackeray's Vanity Fair, the great Victorian novel and Boswell's Johnson. I've always been fascinated with Johnson, what they call him, the great robust common French philosopher who taught everybody who read them closely that the privilege of education is to see things as they are. I think Thackeray and Johnson were my greatest influences both in high school and here at Holy Cross. John Markey: You also mentioned, Judge, that sports and politics in Fall River and in your family were things that were focuses of your life as a younger person growing up. Could you tell us a little bit about why politics was important to you and also any examples of lessons you learned in sports? Judge Harrington: Well, I think in politics, my grandfather was a politician. I think I've indicated that the reason my father came to Holy Cross is that in the early part of the last century, my grandfather served in the House of Representatives in Boston and he was a close associate of Governor David I. Walsh. David I. Walsh was a graduate of Holy Cross (1893) and was the first Catholic governor of Massachusetts. I believe he was elected in 1914 during the heart of the Progressive Era. My grandfather, who I don't believe he got out of grammar school, but was a very formidable politician and a person who was very interested in running, he was very impressed with the culture and the knowledge of Progressive Era. His erudition impressed my grandfather greatly, and as a result, he decided to send his son, my father, here the Holy Cross because he felt that if any place could turn out someone like Governor Walsh, he'd like his son to be exposed to that education. John Markey: How about on the side of sports and character development that that had for you at Durfee High School? Judge Harrington: Well, I was an average athlete, very average. I played three sports, partly because my father was not only a Latin teacher but he was an assistant coach in various spots so I always got a suit. But Durfee was a powerhouse in the days I was there. And I had the opportunity to play, usually on the bench but at least in practice to play with some of the great athletes. We had Henry Nolga, Andy Faricy, Joe Andrews, Tommy Gastall who were known all over the state and sports teacher won a lot. You realized that there's somebody always better than you are. And I think sports teacher teaches you that you lose more than you win. You don't win all games and you don't win every battle in life. And sports were a great teacher. As I indicated, I grew up in a Irish-American culture, if that's what you call it. But sports and politics and education and religion were part of the atmosphere. John Markey: Judge, when you came to Holy Cross, the culture of the place or kind of the mission of the place at that point, an all boys school or all men were here, what was the overall lesson that kind of the leader- Judge Harrington: Well, it was kind of a... In those days, we had an honors course and I was lucky and very fortunate to be a part of that. We had top students from all over the country. The competition was great. On the other hand, it was a rough house school. A bunch of guys, all horsing around. It was enjoyable. The studying was hard. It was rigorous. I loved it because I enjoyed studying. I really did. On the other hand, the sports were great. Not only the major sports for the school, Holy Cross was a top team in three sports. While I was here, we won the NCAA in baseball and won the NIT in basketball. But the competition in intramurals was tremendous too. Thinking back, what I got out of it was a great education. A liberal arts education which exposed the student to all the channels of culture, not only English literature, but art and philosophy and the classics and the drama. When we came here, we weren't thinking or at least I wasn't thinking that I'm coming here for a job. I wasn't even thinking what I was going to do. To expand my life, to live not an intellectual life but a life concerned with trying to find out the truth, to follow your conscience as best you could, to learn so as to develop your capacities, wherever they may be, so that you could pay back, that you could make some contribution to the society and I guess in which you lived. Bridget Power: Were there any teachers or mentors or Jesuits here who really impacted your life during those four years that you spent here? Judge Harrington: Well of course. I remember Father Ahearn who taught me Latin. Latin was a great discipline for sharpening the mind. You had to think hard to understand Latin and also it was a great basis for the understanding of grammar in the English language. Father Bean taught rhetoric. Second year was opened up. I remember we had the Lincoln Douglas debates as an example of rhetorical law or rhetorical brilliance. And there was a Father Heron who taught ethics which to me was maybe one of the greatest courses I ever had. It brought together Aristotelian philosophy with Aquinas' infusion, Aristotle's philosophy with the Christian religion, which gave one a strong basis for how one should live their lives. Those are three names that... I'm sure there are others. John Markey: Were there any of the teachers or Jesuits who spoke to you about recommendations regarding your career choices that you would be making after college? Judge Harrington: Yeah, there was. Father Kelleher, who previously had been the president of Boston College was my Cardinal-Prefect. And in those days we had orals, philosophy orals at the end of the year. And I did fairly well on the oral of both my third and fourth year. And I remember Father Kelleher came to see me one night and he told me that he had been following my scholastic career and that he thought I had, the way he put it, he said, "You haven't got a creative mind," he said, "but you have an acute intelligence and you should consider becoming a lawyer." Well, I wasn't thinking too much of what I was going to do because I was going to... I was NROTC here at Holy Cross and I was going in the Navy and so I figured I wouldn't have to worry about what I was going to do for a couple years. But a couple of years later, when I was getting out of the Navy, I recalled Father Kelleher, his advice and decided to go to law school, even though I had not given any thought prior to going to law school. I said I'll try it out. And it was a fortunate choice. John Markey: In your couple of years in the Navy, what were the formative experiences of that part of your career in life? Judge Harrington: I think responsibility. You go from a guy here at Holy Cross, pouring water on guys out the window or getting in fistfights over matters of juvenilia, I guess you'd call it and then you'll find yourself on the folks all over destroyer and you got all these guys looking up at you saying, "Who's this Bob? He's walking around with a uniform. He's never been to sea. Why are you with the chief?" Wow. You had to give orders to a group of sailors, a whole bunch of tough guys. Really, for the first time in my life, I felt a sense of... That I had to carry out orders and impose orders with a great education. I enjoyed the Navy and if I was any good at science, I think I might have stayed but even in those days, it was getting highly intricate, highly technical to run guns and to navigate, shoot off torpedoes or bomb subs. It wasn't my inclination. And that's one thing I've learned that people should do what they were inclined to do because I think that they do better at it.  I realized I didn't have the scientific proclivity to stay in the Navy, because if I had I would have because it's a great adventure. You're out there in gales, storms, going ashore in foreign countries. It's exhilarating. But I didn't have the qualities for it. John Markey: Judge, you had previously told me a story about the interaction when you were in the Navy with one of your favorite writers. I don't know Bridget knows the story of you down in Cuba meeting or interacting or seeing Ernest Hemingway when you were in the Navy. Judge Harrington: Yeah, that's right. I read Hemingway here. One of the courses I took as a senior was Hemingway and Fitzgerald, Faulkner, Sherwood Anderson, the writers of the '20s and '30s which I had never read because in high school and in college up until my senior year, you were reading the Victorian authors, the romantic poets. But the last year, I took the 20th century novel. And I read the Sun Also Rises and For Whom the Bell Tolls and Farewell Toms as well as a lot of stuff by Fitzgerald. And I ended up, when I left Holy Cross on a destroyer out of Key West, where Hemingway spent the '30s. And then this was pre-Castro. We used to go to Havana every two months. And I was always seeking out Hemingway at his famous bar room called La Floridita. And I'd been there seven or eight times I never saw him. Then one time, I just stumbled in there and there he is. The great Hemingway sitting in the corner. I sat there for an hour trying to get the courage to go over and say halo to him, but I was too shy. I'm glad you brought it up, because the last couple of months, I've been reading his short stories again. Sometimes he was a macho guy, but he had the soul of a poet hidden, hidden behind his bravado. Very, very sensitive person. I wish I had spoken to him. Bridget Power: Gramps, didn't you see him another time? Didn't you see him another time? Judge Harrington: Well, I did. Not personally, but in 1954, I went on my... As I said, I was a NROTC here at Holy Cross and we went on a Midshipman cruise at the end of our junior year. It was a great cruise. We went to Canada and then we went to Havana. Then we went to Guantanamo. And one Sunday afternoon in Havana harbor, this was 1954, as you know, pre-Castro, there were 13 ships in the harbor and the PA system said, "The American writer, Ernest Hemingway, is circling the harbor in his yacht. And he wants to salute the American fleet." And so, here he is. He's only a writer. But he was so celebrated that all the sailors, they even knew of him. And they all flocked the fan tail of all the ships. And there were 13 or 14 ships and Hemingway was standing on his yacht with a glass of rum in his hand saluting the chief. He got the most tremendous cheer. And if you remember, this was August of 1954. Hemingway had crashed twice in Africa on two days in a row in an airplane. And his death was reported all over the world. Like The New York Times would say, "Hemingway dies in plane crash in Uganda," or one of those countries over there. I can't remember which one. He had just returned from Africa because he was laid up in a hospital for a long time. And so here he is, back in Havana where he lived and he wanted to salute the American fleet and he got a tremendous ovation because he was such a celebrated figure that even the sailors, I'm sure most of them had not read about him, but they had heard of him because he was such an adventurer, and they gave such a tremendous cheer. I'll never forget it. Bridget Power: What was it like transitioning from the Navy and going to law school? Judge Harrington: Well, I'll tell you this. Well, the normal deflation, you're an officer, you're a big shot, you're running guys on the foxhole, you tell them what to do and then you were a student again. It was somewhat deflated. But the education that I received here at Holy Cross, the ability to read and to write clearly and the ability to think vigorously made law school so much easier than college. I found law school, I wouldn't say a breeze but I just happened to be... I found my field. I had an inclination towards it. And because of the background I received here at Holy Cross, it was a relatively easy process. When I think back, I got married just before I went to law school. I must have been an optimist because by the time I got out of law school, I had your uncle Johnny and your mother. I don't know how we lived. I'm glad my father used to send $30 a month to get us by but law school was relatively easy. I enjoyed it. Bridget Power: And then you went to Washington? Judge Harrington: Yeah. Well, I got out in 1960 from law school and I became a law clerk for the chief judge of the Massachusetts Superior Court from 1960 to '61. And then, I went to Washington when that term was up in 1961. And had the good fortune to be a part of the United States Department of Justice. Bridget Power: Going back to your time in Washington grandpa, I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about... This was civil rights activity was happening, organized crime, you can talk about what your role was. Judge Harrington: Well, I was, again, very fortunate to be selected as one of approximately 15 attorneys to be a member of the so-called Hoffa investigations which was a prime concern of the Attorney General. The Attorney General felt that James Hoffa, the leader of the Teamsters Union, was a corrupt labor official who had close contact with the syndicate. And as a result, being a member of that so-called Hoffa squad, I was able to be involved in grand juries conducted all over the United States, especially in Miami, Louisville, in Chicago. And so I got a lot of practice in the conduct of grand juries and trials. And also in 1964, the members of that so-called Hoffa squad were charged by Attorney General Kennedy to go to Mississippi during the so-called long hot summer of 1964 to help protect the rights of the civil rights volunteers who are going to Mississippi to conduct freedom schools. You recall that a year later, in 1965, the Voting Rights Act of '65 was enacted. This was in preparation for that. John Markey: And then, Judge, you had mentioned that the award you received is named after Edward Bennett Williams. At one point during your work with the organized crime force, did you have the opportunity to have a trial against or in which you participated in Attorney Williams- Judge Harrington: Yeah, in 1964 there was a case called United States versus Alderisio. Phil Alderisio was a hoodlum out of Chicago. And we were in Miami on and off for a year in an investigation against Santo Trafficante. Trafficante was the mob boss of Florida and he ran the rackets in Havana, Cuba prior to Castro. The grand jury could never get sufficient evidence on Trafficante, but we came up with Phil Alderisio. Ed Williams was the most celebrated trial lawyer of that era and he was Alderisio's lawyer. I only occupied the second seat. I wasn't the main lawyer. I was doing the research, the legal briefs and the legal research but I was still nervous because it was my first big trial. I went to the men's room and I heard someone regurgitating and it was... Ed Williams emerged.  had known him a little because he always at the Department of Justice with some of his clients. And I had known him through this. And I said, "Are you feeling sick?" And he said, "My stomach gets upset always before trial." And as I indicated maybe to you, I used to get angry at myself because I used to get nervous before trials. I said, "I'm not going to chastise myself anymore. If Ed Williams, the greatest lawyer in America gets a nervous stomach, well I shouldn't be too tough on myself." He went out a half hour later and he was a brilliant speaker. Excellent. What a beautiful speaker and great presence, great tone. He'd fill the court room. But a half hour before, he was throwing up. It's amazing. But to be named after Williams, as I indicated before, he not only was a great trial lawyer, he was as his biographer said, a man to see. He was, along with Clark Clifford, the most influential lawyer in DC. Everybody knew him, everybody wanted him as a lawyer. And you could see why he was. He had presence. He had presence. John Markey: What role did Holy Cross play in getting you connected with the people who could get your career started with the department of justice? Judge Harrington: Well, Ed Hanify was a graduate of Holy Cross (1933). There's a forum here named after Ed's father (class of 1904), The Hanify Lectures. He was able to, through his great influence, and he was the most influential lawyer I would say in New England at the era. He was John Kennedy's private lawyer. He was a man of great, great influence. In fact, some people say that if Jack Kennedy had a second term, Ed Hanify was slated to go to the Supreme Court. He was able to... He was my sponsor, because I went to Holy Cross. And he knew Judge Reardon who I served under at the Massachusetts Superior Court. He was my sponsor to get me to become a member of the Department of Justice in 1961, which was a great opportunity. Because if you read the history of the new frontier, the Kennedy administration, an awful lot of the activity of that administration was generated at the Department of Justice. Ed Hanify was the one who was able to get me to become a member. That was a great boost to my career and what would be approximately 26 years later. Ed Hanify who is the managing partner at Ropes & Gray, still, I believe, went to Washington on my behalf in 1987 to advocate my confirmation before the Senate Judiciary Committee, which was a great boost, because if you know, 1987 was the controversy over Justice Bork. And the contentions between the parties was very intense. Hanify's appearance there, and the prestige that he possessed was very influential in my being confirmed by a democratic controlled Senate for a republican appointee. I was appointed or nominated by Reagan. But the Senate was controlled by the Democrats and the tensions between the parties over the Bork debacle was very intense. Bridget Power: You came back to Massachusetts after a couple years in Washington. Can you talk about what you did? Judge Harrington: Well there's another Holy Cross connection. I went to Washington because of Ed Hanify. And I came back to Boston because of Arthur Garrity (Class of 1941). Arthur Garrity was the United States Attorney for Massachusetts in 1965. I was in Washington, approximately four years. But Robert Kennedy left main justice in September of '64 to go to New York to run for Senate. And so the people who were the so-called Kennedy people in the Johnson administration were peeling off and leaving because our influence had diminished after Jack Kennedy was assassinated and when Bobby left main justice. Arthur Garrity hired me primarily because I went to Holy Cross. Arthur Garrity was class of '41, Ed Williams' class. And just as an aside, when I went on to the district court for the District of Massachusetts, I replaced Andrew Caffrey, class of '41 at Holy Cross. But Arthur Garrity did two things for me. He brought me back to Boston to be a member of the United States Attorney's Office and there were only 15 assistants. It was a prestigious position. Now they have 150 assistant US attorneys. In those days, they were only 15. If you ever got into the US attorney's office, as I did at the behest of Arthur Garrity, you had great prestige. And then 25 years later again, I'm going through the Senate judiciary hearing for my confirmation. I'm a republican appointee in a body that's controlled by the Democrats. They're not giving me a hearing because of the Bork situation. Arthur Garrity, a democrat calls Ted Kennedy and asks Ted to see what he could do to get me a hearing. Well, because of the relationship between Arthur Garrity and Ted Kennedy, Ted not only got me a hearing, he got me a 14-0 to confirm me. But both by going to the department, by becoming an assistant US Attorney and being confirmed as a United States district judge for the district of Massachusetts, all were caused by Ed Hanify Holy Cross, Arthur Garrity Holy Cross, because I was a graduate of this great school. John Markey: During the 1970s, you had a tenure as the United States Attorney for the district of Massachusetts. What were your priorities and experiences from that time period that you'd like to share just as experiences when you held that position? Judge Harrington: Well, the job of the US Attorney's throughout the United States, they carry out the policy of the administration. During the time that I was an assistant US attorney, organized crime was a major focus of the Department of Justice under the Kennedy administration. When I came back in the '70s, Jimmy Carter was the president. And the policy of the Department of Justice at that time was white collar crime and public corruption. Although there was still some interest in organized crime, the focus shifted to public corruption and especially political corruption. It's a very difficult area to operate in because you make a lot of enemies. But the Carter administration really was the first administration that stressed public corruption. And it was an exhilarating time. But as a result, when you left the office, you didn't have too many friends. Bridget Power: Gramps, then you decided to run for elected office. Can you talk about what motivated you to do that? Judge Harrington: I don't know what I think of it. As they say, I ran. I'm a footnote Massachusetts history. I ran in 1974 for Attorney General, as a Democrat. I ran in 1986 as a Republican and got beat both times. And so the reason I saw people, a lot of wags say, the reason they put me on the court because they say, "The guy's going to run as a communist next time. So let's get rid of this guy and put him on the court." I don't know... I enjoyed public affairs. As I say, one Irishman didn't, we were brought up in that atmosphere. Politics was if we were talking sports, we're talking politics. I figured I'd give it a try. And that was very enjoyable. In fact, I was living in Portsmouth, Rhode Island in the summertime, where I've lived for my whole life. And my father would go around to get some of my children to distribute brochures and they hated it. And I got beat pretty badly but forced against that will lay and distribute political literature. I wish my children had done better in distributing the brochures because I got beat badly on both occasions. But that's the great thing about sports. You got to know how to lose in sports and in politics. You're going to take it and you've got to be a good sport about it. If you get beat, shake the guy's hand. Bridget Power: Can you talk a little bit about what it's been like to be a judge in Massachusetts, what that experience was like? I know you've been senior status for a while, but... Judge Harrington: Well, all I can say, being a judge brings all your qualities and your experiences together. Especially on the federal court, you get a wide expanse of cases towards contracts, anti-trust, patent, copyright, tax. So you have to be somewhat versatile. It's an intellectual job. It's exciting intellectually. And when you're an active judge, which I no longer am, I'm just a senior judge who just does mediations part-time, but you've got a docket of 500 cases. Every day, you're making 20 to 25 decisions and it's all I could say. It's intellectually exhilarating. The toughest part of the job is sentencing people. When you're a prosecutor, all you can think about is convicting someone and imposing the best you can get, meaning the toughest sentence. That's your attitude. When you're a judge and you have to impose a sentence, you're much more sensitive and I found from being a tough prosecutor to being a more compassionate person as a judge than I was, as a trial lawyer. Maybe I got older, but I treated the imposition of sentence, with much more sensitivity than I ever expected it for myself and a lot of my adversaries expected from me. It's really... When you sit there and you have the determination in your hands whether somebody is going to do five years or 10 years, it's a grave responsibility and it makes you more sensitive. Bridget Power: As a judge, you had a lot of law clerks, including John. Can you talk about what it means to be a mentor what you saw as your role? Judge Harrington: Well, I never thought I was a mentor. I know this. That to be a law clerk as John was, you had to be pretty high in your class in law school. I found myself that I was taught an awful lot. I don't mean this in false modesty. The law clerks I had were all brilliant people and they taught me an awful lot. Because as a practicing lawyer, I did primarily criminal law and personal liability. But when you go on the federal bench, you have, as I indicated, a vast array of disciplines that you've had really little experience in. So you need the input from the law clerks because they're all very, very smart. And I've always said that I believe and I believe this truly, that I was taught more by my law clerks than I ever taught them. Bridget Power: Currently, grandpa, you're 86 years old and you work part time as a mediator. Can you talk about what that is like for you? I know it brings you a lot of joy. Judge Harrington: It brings me joy. And it's a great... It gives you an opportunity to resolve a dispute. That's the purpose of law, isn't it? To resolve disputes. Well, when you go to a mediation hearing, you will have briefs from both sides. You understand the facts. You understand the law and you try to show each side the strengths and weaknesses of their case in order to bring them closer together. And you are the impartial arbitrator. You can't decide the case but you hope by your experience and insight, that you can give an objective view as to the merits of the case and what it's worth. You find that you can be successful and it's a great vehicle for the resolution of disputes. John Markey: Judge, if you want to give someone who's a Holy Cross student now or a recent graduate thinking of becoming a lawyer, advice on what you think would help them have a successful legal career, what are the skills, character traits, etc advice you'd give them? Judge Harrington: Well, first of all, you got to be studious in whatever avenue you take. As we know, education is a lifetime process. All you get really are the interest and the tools going to school. But you have to be studious throughout your whole life. Trying to find out what is truthful, what is the right thing to do? That's the first thing you got to be. I think you should go as I hinted before going to something that you will have a natural proclivity towards because if you have a natural proclivity, you're apt to be able to do it better. Which is like I indicated, I love the navy because it was a rough life. It was enjoyable being at sea. But I didn't have the capabilities of being the scientific background to what? To make an impact. Second thing, you have to do what you want to do, which you get joy out of. You're going to spend a lot of time working. You got to enjoy it. Some times, I think the worst thing that could happen to anybody through miscalculation, you get into a job that you don't like because you going to spend most of your life at work. So you have to be a person of character, you have to be a thinker and you have to enjoy your work. Whatever. And here's the other thing. I got a lot of breaks in life by being a member of the Holy Cross family through Ed Hanify and Arthur Garrity. People have to help you. You can't do much by yourself. And so, you have to pay back. I think the greatest joy, it seems a cliche to say but it is, the great joy you get in life is to serve others. If you can help other people. First of all your family, help them and then other people. And then you've got to respect people. Just because you're a judge, you're no better than anybody else. Everybody is doing their job and everything's important. My father taught me that. He said, "Just because a guy doesn't know Latin, that doesn't mean anything. He could fix a car. Can you fix a car?" No. I can't even open the hood. I can't. My father couldn't. We were just bookish guys. We couldn't do anything. That's why I'm wondering where I am today. I can't even make a ham sandwich. That's true. This guys who do things. My father, he had a great rapport with the so-called regular guys. These regular guys are smart. They could do things you can't do. So never think you're a big shot. Show respect to people. That's all I can say. Bridget Power: You mentioned your dad, Grandpa, I think great grandpa Harrington came to Holy Cross in 1924 (John J. Harringon, class of 1928). Our family's been here for almost 100 years. Jackie is a current student, my cousin Jackie. Judge Harrington: Yup. Bridget Power: Is that right? Judge Harrington: We've had 17 family members here, over four generations. My brother Johnny was a brilliant guy (Class of 1958). My brother Johnny, he was a down to earth guy. He was a great medical thinker. He loved Holy Cross. My brother Dan went here (Class of 1960). My brother Dan, he wasn't an intellectual like Johnny was, but he was a sole practitioner. He was a great diagnostician. I run into people at Fall River today talking about my brother Dan. They were regular guys. They were studious guys. They loved Holy Cross. I've been lucky. I had a great family, which is most important. I had a great wife. Bridget Power: Gramps, last question. You're an avid reader. What are you reading these days? Judge Harrington: Well, I just happen to be saying I've been reading this last book I've reading, Hemingway Short Stories. I read The Education of Henry Adams which taught me once again that he named his autobiography, The Education, letting us all know that education doesn't stop when you get your diploma. What else have I read? I've read Rasselas by Johnson. You should read that. Have you ever read it? Bridget Power: No. Judge Harrington: It told you one thing, that you never achieve full satisfaction here on Earth. It's almost conforms with the Catholic religion because of the spirituality of the soul. That material things cannot satisfy you. That whatever you search for, you're usually not going to receive or if you do, it doesn't satisfy you. I read Rasselas once every few years because I think Johnson was a great, great thinker and he taught me one thing. He said, "Read biography," that was one of his injunctions. "Read biography to see how other people have managed the trials, the triumphs, the tribulations of life. See how they've handled it." And so I always try every few weeks to get a biography of someone have to see how they've managed their life. Hopefully, it'll guide me in mine. Maura Sweeney: That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be men and women for and with others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host Maura Sweeney and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of St. Ignatius of Loyola, "Now go forth and set the world on fire." --- Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

Christian Haynes ’20 joins us again to speak with Ron Lawson ‘75 about the transformational power of both a Holy Cross education, and the Holy Cross alumni network. Interview originally recorded on Martin Luther King Jr. Day on January 20, 2020. --- Transcript Ron Lawson: Holy Cross instills in you that notion of perseverance and what I realized when I graduated here... that I already had the suit of armor necessary to succeed in life and that played itself out at Carnegie Mellon because when I graduated from Carnegie Mellon, I knew it was the Holy Cross experience that got me to that point. Maura Sweeney: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, director of alumni career development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. Maura Sweeney: In this episode, we hear from Ron Lawson from the great class of 1975. Ron attended Holy Cross in the early '70s, a time that has been celebrated in the book Fraternity by Diane Brady, which chronicles the lives of an influential cohort of African-American students at Holy Cross. After growing up on Long Island, Ron studied political science at Holy Cross. He still considers those years living on Healy Three among the best in his life. Christian Haynes from the class of 2020 speaks with Ron on Martin Luther King Jr. Day in January 2020. They talk about how his career progressed from Wall Street to being unemployed and homeless, to today working as the COO for Care for the Homeless in New York City. Throughout these changes one thing has remained constant, his dedication to giving back to the Holy Cross community. They discuss Ron's motivations for helping create the ALANA Mentoring Program and the Bishop Healy Emergency Fund, in order to offer students of color the resources and support that he didn't have. A captivating and motivating speaker, Ron shares stories about the life experiences at Holy Cross that teach you how to persevere through hard times and succeed in life. Christian Haynes: Welcome everybody, my name is Christian Haynes, class of 2020, woo woo, that's this year. That's this year. I have here with me, the great Ron Lawson, class of '75. Ron you could introduce yourself, even though I just did. Ron Lawson: Yeah, I'm Ron Lawson. I would say I'm not great but I would say I'm from the great class of '75. Christian Haynes: I like '75, I don't know why. I always told my mum I wanted to be born that year. Ron Lawson: Oh really? Christian Haynes: I'm a more old-school guy. Young but got the old school. What was so great about '75? Ron Lawson: '75 had the unique distinction of being the last all-male class to enter Holy Cross. So my class was all-male when we entered as freshmen in '71. We all lived on the same dorm. The majority of African-Americans on campus, who were all male at the time, it's probably about 80 or 90 of us and most of us lived on Healy Three. So I love the fact that the class of '75 has that distinction as being the last all-male class before that transition took place. It was challenging, both on the part of the women... I don't know how they did it. I don't know how those early classes endured us because a lot of us weren't as considerate and kind as we realized we should have been in retrospect. Christian Haynes: Right. Now did you guys stay together all four years, in the same dorms? Ron Lawson: Yeah, I lived in Healy Three all four years. Christian Haynes: Really? Ron Lawson: Had a couple of different roommates but there was a core group of us that we used to call the fellas. About five or six of us and we all did everything together, everything from going to Kimball, to eating at Hogan, to going to parties at Welsey and Mount Holyoke and Smith and Simmons and Wheelock and Emmanuel. Christian Haynes: The list goes on. The list goes on. Ron Lawson: Yeah, on and on and on. Christian Haynes: That's interesting that you guys stayed in one dorm, all four years. What dorms weren't there that are here now. Ron Lawson: Figge... Christian Haynes: Yeah that's the newest one. Ron Lawson: ...wasn't here. There's a new dorm that just opened a few years ago, the apartments? Christian Haynes: Oh the Edge Apartments, no that's... Ron Lawson: Yeah, Figge and... Christian Haynes: Williams. Ron Lawson: Williams. Figge and Williams. Christian Haynes: Yeah, well I think Williams is... Ron Lawson: Williams is older than Figge and Figge... neither one of those were open. A little sidebar is, Williams was named after Edward Bennett Williams, who was a prominent attorney, a Holy Cross alumni, also the owner of the Baltimore Orioles and I think he may have owned the Washington Redskins also but he was a very prominent D.C. attorney and one of his mentees was Ted Wells who was in the class of '72, who was in school when I was here and Ted followed Edward Bennett Williams' model for success and Ted, in his own right, is a very prominent corporate attorney, got a joint degree from Harvard Law School and Business School. Christian Haynes: Wow. Yeah, earlier we talked about the connections Holy Cross provides to each student. I was told that freshman year... every year but freshman year I didn't believe it until I saw it... especially when I had my experience with you. I would love to get into that a little bit later but first, tell me about, how was it growing up in... correct me if I'm wrong, Winditch? Ron Lawson: Wyandanch. Christian Haynes: Wyandanch, Long Island. Ron Lawson: Wyandanch was a predominantly African-American community in Suffolk County on the South Shore of Long Island and it's where my parents had the foresight to move us, when I was infant, from the South Bronx because my father felt there was too much violence and he wanted a more safe and secure environment for us so he was able to buy a house. As I tell people, my father would constantly tell the story that he couldn't afford this house and it was $10,000 and he couldn't afford it because, even though he served in World War Two in the Philippines, because of Federal law. African-American veterans were not allowed to apply for a G.I. Bill, which provided low-interest loans to secure housing for veterans of World War Two. So he and my mother used to drive out from the Bronx and take these rides through the countryside on Long Island. He said, one day they drove by this house, which was a model home for where we moved in, he and my mother toured it. The real estate agent told him it was $10,000. He and my mother walked back to the car, he told my mother we can't afford it, she started crying and he sat in the car for five minutes trying to calm her and literally got out the car, walked back in the house and gave the real estate agent $10. Christian Haynes: Wow. Ron Lawson: That's how we secured our first home on Long Island and that's where I grew up. Christian Haynes: Wow. Ron Lawson: A very comfortable, lower middle-class environment. As I was telling some people earlier, I didn't realize that I was poor until I came to Holy Cross because all my needs had always been met. So it was a very interesting, holistic upbringing. I went to a really good public school, North Babylon High School. Some of the folks I graduated with... I went to Holy Cross, the other guys, one of my best friends went to Tufts, one guy went to Naval Academy, one guy went to Air Force Academy, so we were going to very good schools as a result of our North Babylon education. Christian Haynes: That's great. How was that culture shock and how... Ron Lawson: It wasn't for me, which I found interesting and unique. Coming to Holy Cross wasn't a culture shock for me. Coming to Holy Cross was by design, not by default. I had done well on the SATs so I was being recruited or getting letters of interest from a lot of schools including West Point, Indianapolis, Syracuse, Bucknell, College of William and Mary. I got a letter from Holy Cross but whereas all these other schools were sending me form letters, I got a personally typed letter that was signed by Gary Reed, who wound up being two years ahead of me, class of '73, wound up going to Harvard Law School and Gary obviously was part of the BSU committee at the time, that was trying to work to increase the number of African-Americans on campus. So when I got a personal letter from Holy Cross, I said well, I want to go see this place. Ron Lawson: Took the bus to Worcester with another friend of mine because he and I were both considering running track. When I got here and got on campus, I knew that was it. It was everything I had envisioned my college experience was to be. Ivy covered walls, small school sitting on a hill, didn't hurt that it was only 45, 50 minutes from Boston, then another 45, 50 minutes from Western Mass, so I knew I could get to Wellesley within an hour and I could get to Mount Holyoke within an hour, so that was very important to me. Ron Lawson: My high school was a very large high school, 2000 students, 90% white, 10% African-American. So when I got to Holy Cross and Holy Cross was 97% white with 3% African-American, it didn't phase me because that had been my whole upbringing. It was very interesting for guys like Ted and Tony Hill, class of '76 because Ted created a funnel effect for Holy Cross students coming from Calvin Coolidge High School in Washington and they followed him to Holy Cross so at one point in time, there were six or seven students from Calvin Coolidge here at Holy Cross. D.C. was totally different. D.C. was totally segregated. The schools were segregated unless you went to a private school, Calvin Coolidge, some of the other schools in the neighborhood were all African-American, so when they got to Holy Cross, they culture shock of having to deal with a majority environment was challenging to a lot of folks and some of the guys I knew dropped out because they couldn't handle it. Christian Haynes: Yeah, that's a good point, they may dropping out. I think as college students, that happens, it doesn't matter your background or anything like that but what made you stay? Now, you said there wasn't as much as a culture shock but I'm assuming that there had to be some kind of trials and tribulations along the way of... Ron Lawson: Oh, yeah, that's life. You're going to always incur trials and tribulations but I knew, at the time I was here, that I was experiencing the best time of my life. I knew I would have other good times ahead but I knew, while I was at Holy Cross, that I was experiencing four of the best years of my life and so I took it all in, I didn't leave anything on the table. I made sure I took advantage of as many opportunities as possible and it ran the gambit. It ran from going to parties in Boston to sitting, being a member of the political science club and having dinner with Archibald Cox, who was the special prosecutor for Richard M. Nixon, to one night having a campus-wide snowball fight with 26,000 people. Christian Haynes: Wow. Ron Lawson: All night long. Hunkering down behind Wheeler, crawling through the snow with a sack full of snowballs, waiting to get somebody upside the head. So no one could have had a better collegiate experience and you can talk to a lot of the folks that were with us, experienced this during the same time and a lot of them would feel the same way. Christian Haynes: Would you say there was a difference between the other African-American men on campus, since you guys had different backgrounds, did you notice certain differences through just the way you guys went about things? Ron Lawson: No, it was pretty much consistent throughout. Some of the same lingo that I used in North Babylon, that the guys from D.C. used, still played the same games growing up Ringolevio, hot peas and butter, all- Christian Haynes: I never heard of that... You from Brooklyn so... Ron Lawson: But a lot of the influences were exactly the same. Christian Haynes: Yeah, that's good. Ron Lawson: The commonality was such that, when our parents met, it was the same thing, they became friends. So no, I didn't see any difference between me and the other guys that I was going to school with. Christian Haynes: That's good. Now when you hear, you mentioned these names many times today in the short time that we've been together today but when you hear the names Stan Grayson, Eddie Jenkins, Clarence Thomas, those names, Ted Wells, what's the first thing that comes to your mind? Ron Lawson: It varies. First of all, the relationship endures and I take that for granted because it's just constant. Here's a perfect example, the Bishop Healy Committee had a farewell lunch in for Dean Millner yesterday, off-campus. Eddie came and we call ourselves the old heads because when we're around you guys there's a 40 year, 45 year gap so we know we're the old heads. So after I went to the bookstore, I was walking down here and I decided to go into the library, just to look to see how things have changed and as I'm leaving, I see a display case and in the display case is a picture of the Holy Cross football team of 1969 and so I look and I see Eddie Jenkins, take a picture and I send it, said that, on campus, in the library at the bookcase, just saw this picture, who's the young man in the second row, third from the left? So it's always those kinds of continuity of relationships and continuation of relationships. Two young men from my church will be entering Holy Cross in September and Stan and I couldn't be happier because we constantly engaged with making sure they were... applications were in, they were getting everything they needed, they were responding in an appropriate time. So now, I see this as an opportunity to have two more mentees on campus that I can help mentor over the next four years. Christian Haynes: That's great. I love this story but when you're mentioning Fraternity, it's like a slight bit but I know you take full pride into that, right? Ron Lawson: Yeah but as I said and as I told Maura and the other folks early on, I was at the tail-end of that experience, all right? Christian Haynes: Yeah. Ron Lawson: That started with these guys making one of the most bold decisions you could make as a person that young. They had decided that there were injustices on campus that affected black students disproportionately and they couldn't achieve the level of resolution that they wanted so they walked out. Went in the Hogan, had a press conference, tore up their ID cards and walked out. Among them was Art Martin, class of '70, who was the first president of the BSU and I can't even imagine the admiration the admiration these other guys must have had for him because he was a senior and he was already accepted into Georgetown Law School and Stan and Eddie and Clarence and Ted, they all told him, you don't have to go, you're already set, don't worry about it. He said, no, if one person is walking out, we're all walking out. Christian Haynes: RIght. Ron Lawson: So he was willing to sacrifice... they were willing to sacrifice their college education, he was willing to sacrifice an opportunity to matriculate Georgetown Law School. So I don't, in any way shape or form, compare with them or compare with that. Where I fall into play is, most of them except for Clarence and Art were all seniors my freshman year and we were all living on Healy Three and Eddie was a big-time football player, went on to win the Superbowl with the Miami Dolphins, Stan was getting ready to go to the University of Michigan Law School and Ted was getting ready to go to Harvard Business and Law School, four year joint degree. My claim to fame was, I showed up on Healy Three with a color TV and so that was my paragraph in the book and it was bittersweet because, I must admit, I liked the attention I got but then I realized the foolhardiness in that because Ted and Stan would kick me out my room every Sunday so they could watch Sunday football games in color and they'd make me go to the library. So... Christian Haynes: At least you got your work done. Ron Lawson: Well I tried to get my work done but I sat there for two or three hours saying, "man they kicked me out of my room, I can't even watch TV on my own TV", but I was a freshman, they were the upper-classmen so you do what you're told. Christian Haynes: Yeah, can't do nothing about it. Ron Lawson: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Christian Haynes: Yeah but I think there was a trickling effect that they had, especially with your class and the classes after that, I think you guys noticed what they did and wanted to pursue what they did, pursue that. Ron Lawson: Oh, definitely. Definitely. Christian Haynes: Pursue that legacy. Ron Lawson: They set the model that we all tried to become and follow suit. That was a blessing and a curse because over time, you would say to yourself, well, I'm not as successful as Ted, I'm not as successful as Stan, I'm just doing this. It took a while to say, I'm successful in my own right but what was always important was, will they be proud of me, will they be proud of my accomplishments. That was very, very important to me and the guys and the women that followed them. When they hear your name, will they speak about you with pride? Christian Haynes: Yeah. Seemed like there was a strong sense of brotherhood on the campus around that time. Ron Lawson: Oh, definitely. Christian Haynes: Yeah and for your class and the classes after, who were the people that you would go to whenever there was something on your mind or something you had to get off your chest or something happened, whether good or bad? Ron Lawson: It was pretty much Ted and Stan, for me. Even when Ted was in law school and business school, as consumed as he was, his Wife Nina, who was successful in her own right, was at Suffolk University and a lot of times, she would help counsel me because I was thinking of applying to law school. Even after school, when I'd had issues or just needed to bounce something off of someone, it would always be Ted or Stan that I would reach out to. Christian Haynes: Do you have any untold stories of Holy Cross, that you can think of? Ron Lawson: No, not... I have some I can't say publicly. Christian Haynes: Oh yeah, that's fine. Or your favorite story. Ron Lawson: Okay, my favorite story really... there's so many favorite stories. My most favorite story would have to be... I owe so much to Holy Cross. I always tell people like you and like Maura, who I think graduated in '07, that you all were going to be successful no matter what you did or no matter where you chose to go to school but you decided to go to Holy Cross so Holy Cross gets to take credit for your success. That's the reality. But going to Holy Cross... when I was here, my freshman year, my roommate was dating a young woman from New York, who was a few years younger than him, in high school and she and a bunch of her girlfriends came up for the weekend and we had one of the vacant suites in Healy Three and they all stayed there. I was dating one of her girlfriends. Then afterwards, my roommate and her broke up and over the years I would say, I wonder what ever happened to her, she was really cute and she had an odd last name, her last name was Clivert. Ron Lawson: So fast forward from the mid '70s to the early '90s, I'm now CFO for Mayor Dinkins in New York and one night I let the whole finance team go home early and I am processing campaign cheques to deposit in the bank the next day. So I see a cheque and it's got the name Nina Clivert on it. Well I know this has to be her so I start research... I try to find her, I get her number, I call, I leave a message. Couple of weeks later, we go out on a blind date. We go out on a couple of other days and to make a long story short, she's been my wife for the last 25 years. So it's because of Holy Cross I found my wife. Christian Haynes: Wow. You ever tell your roommate about that? Ron Lawson: Yeah, no harm, no foul. He broke up with her 1973, she and I got together in 1992. Christian Haynes: He does play a part in it. Ron Lawson: Yeah but- Christian Haynes: He wasn't invited to the wedding? Ron Lawson: Huh? No he wasn't invited to the wedding. He's all the way out in Seattle. Christian Haynes: That's funny. Now, what was next, after you graduated from Holy Cross? Ron Lawson: I didn't know. I didn't know. I was not at the top of my class, by any stretch of the imagination. I wasn't even in the middle of my class, by any stretch of the imagination. I was real close to the bottom of my class, with no stretching the imagination so I came home and I didn't have a lot of options. I didn't have the GPA to go to law school and so I worked for a year in a job that basically paid me a salary and it was something to do. At that time I decided I was going to apply to business school because two of the guys I graduated with, both went to Cornell and they were in the MBA program. So I applied to Cornell. I applied to a few other schools and I had done well on the GMATs so I got a letter from Carnegie Mellon saying that they had a pre-professional... they had a quantitative summer skills institute that I could enroll in for free and depending upon how I did in this summer skills institute, they would determine whether I could matriculate as a master's candidate and whether or not I would receive any sort of scholarship. Ron Lawson: It was scary because at Holy Cross, I was a political science major and one of the things Holy Cross teaches you is how to think, how to process, how to articulate and how to write. So I knew I could get in front of any audience and I could pontificate and I could speak the King's English and I could do well. I stayed as far away from quantitative courses as I possibly could because I was fearful of them. Well now I'm at CMU and I'm going to a quantitative summer skills institute so I'm confronted with my greatest fear. So the summer I was there, I had to take finite math, calculus, statistics, two computer programming courses, fundamental accounting, intermediate accounting, cost accounting and advanced accounting. I did well enough that I was actually tutoring calculus to undergraduate students by the end of the semester and I was offered a seat in the master's class and got a scholarship. So after one year of working after Holy Cross, I then went and got a master's in public management from Carnegie Mellon. Christian Haynes: You went from being at the bottom of the class to getting that offer of scholarship. Ron Lawson: Yeah and that's what I tell people. When anybody comes in my office... I prominently display all my degrees, my Holy Cross degree, my master's degree from Carnegie Mellon and then the first company that hired me after Carnegie Mellon sent me to a post-graduate program in accounting and finance at the Kellogg School, so I had that certificate on my wall also. I always tell people, it's not about me trying to show off or trying to display any arrogance. I am paying testimony to my parents, to my father who died at 57 and mother who died at 47, who I felt worked themselves into an early grave to make sure I could achieve that level of success, so that's in tribute to them. Ron Lawson: But yeah, that's how life is and what Holy Cross also taught me was, never give up. It was instilled in me, early on because there were a lot of challenges here where I could have... half my class, there were 34 black men in my class and half of them either flunked out or left and that 50% drop-out rate was pretty consistent through the early '70s to mid '70s. So I could have easily said, this is too hard, I'm not doing it, I'm going back to North Babylon and go to community college but Holy Cross instills in you that notion of perseverance. What I realized, when I graduated here, that I already had the suit of armor necessary to succeed in life and that played itself out at Carnegie Mellon because when I graduated from Carnegie Mellon, I knew it was the Holy Cross experience that got me to that point. Ron Lawson: Let me tell you a perfect example. Once again, I'm not at the top of my class, I'm struggling because I'm dealing with all these quantitative courses. We would be sitting in economics and economics class was 200/300 people in the auditorium. Now I'm not used to that. I'm used to 20 people in a class, in the basement of Fenwick or O'Kane because we used to have classrooms down there. I wasn't used to the type of economics because we were used to Samuelson, guns and butter. That was economics, I can understand that. I get to Carnegie Mellon and it's all math, it's all quantitative and it's all math. It's partial and differential equations. The professor is at the front on the video screen and he's doing computations and equations and formulas and he is trying to show us how to solve for lambda. I'm like, "what's lambda?", well nobody really knows but we're going to solve for it. Christian Haynes: Right. Ron Lawson: So I am befuddled, I am bemused, I am dismayed and I am flunking everything. Then one day, Holy Cross, being the institution that it is, teaches you perspective, teaches you how to observe. So I'm sitting in class and he puts an equation on the board and I see somebody raise their hand, "Professor Haynes, Professor Haynes", oh and he goes, so, this is how you solve for lambda, you take that purple bag and you have the black video screen and then you add it to the Holy Cross sign. "Professor Haynes, Professor Haynes", "yes Ron?", "so what you're saying, and this is intuitively speaking, is if I have a purple bag with a black sign and the Holy Cross sign, via the combination of those three elements, I will be able to solve for lambda", "that's right Ron", and I looked and I said, all he did was regurgitate what the professor said, he just said it a different way. From that day on, I was a B plus or an A student because all you had to do was regurgitate but I learned that because I learned that at Holy Cross, the perspective. Ron Lawson: Then I also realized my grades weren't good as the rest of the class so I needed to step up and figure out how I was going to gain an advantage. Well, I looked around and I remember when we were interviewed on campus, everybody put on their little suits and ties. I went out and got a $250 navy blue, Pierre Toussaint [intention: Pierre Cardin] double-breasted suit. Clean as the board of health. I would wear that to every job interview and at the end of my first semester, second year, when all the job offers were being made, I think I had seven job offers, which was more than anyone else in my class. Christian Haynes: Wow. Ron Lawson: So it was all those educational... it wasn't even educational experiences from Holy Cross, it was those life experiences from Holy Cross that helped me succeed. Christian Haynes: Right. Now, shortly after you got the scholarship for the master's program, you found out that your father had passed, right? Ron Lawson: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Christian Haynes: At this point, your mother had passed at the age of 17. Ron Lawson: Yes. Christian Haynes: Earlier you mentioned having the degrees in your office as a testimony to them, at that age, how do you get through that? I don't know if you have any siblings or anything like that but how were you able to get through that and how did your work or your work ethic reflect your parents? Ron Lawson: Well I just did. I can't even tell you how I got through it, I just did. I would love to say I had a tremendous support system but I was a moving target. I'm trying to pursue my career or move forward professionally, the way I know my parents would have wanted me to. When my father passed, I must admit, for a minute, I said, well I'm not... it was a three week break between the end of the summer skills institute at Carnegie Mellon and me entering the fall class and I wasn't going to go back. After my mother's death, my father remarried, my step-mother said, that's what he would have wanted you to do so you can't not go back. He only had $3,000 in life insurance, she gave me $300 and so off I was back to Carnegie Mellon. Ron Lawson: I was struggling academically and broke because I had no financial support. If we're having breakfast and you offered me a bowl of Kellogg's cornflakes now, I'd want to fight you because that's all I could afford to eat for two years. Coming from that experience, I realized well, if you can do this, you can do anything. What my parents instilled in me is no giving up, you don't quit. I saw it with my mother and her battle with breast cancer. I saw my father's angst after she passed and how he basically raised me as a single parent until I went off to Holy Cross. So those object lessons stuck with me and I just had the mindset that there was no challenge I couldn't overcome. Christian Haynes: So after Carnegie Mellon, you ended up in Wall Street or was there...? Ron Lawson: Yeah, spent 15 years in financial services with what is now Ernst & Young, Deloitte & Touche, Chase, JPMorgan Chase, Salomon Brothers, I did that for 15 years until I got laid off. That was my great epiphany because... this is what... you may have heard the term, in the past, the go-go '80s, this is during a period of time where everyone's making a ton of money on Wall Street, everyone's living extravagantly, it's all about self, there's nothing about, how do you live your life to benefit others. It's like, how do I get mine? I was caught up, head over heels, in it. Wearing the fine clothing, the expensive clothing, going out to the expensive restaurants, going to the theater two or three times a week. Next thing I know, I have lost my job and in my arrogance I said, well this will only take me a couple or three weeks to get another job because I have a Holy Cross degree, I have a Carnegie Mellon degree and I have a post-graduate certificate from the Kellogg School and I have 15 years of work experience on Wall Street. Didn't happen. Ron Lawson: I realized that, in retrospect, that this was God's way of humbling me because it's very timely that we're having this conversation today on Martin Luther King Day because I was able to come out of losing my job, losing everything I own, being homeless, to in a six month period of time, being the CFO for the Mayor of New York because I had a close network of friends that were very influential and because I met my minister at the time, who was Reverend Doctor Paul Smith and he was a senior pastor of First Presbyterian Church in Brooklyn Heights. Paul is the person that introduced Martin Luther King to Andrew Young and Paul is a really good friend of Andrew Young and Paul was a key proponent, a key participant in the Civil Rights Movement, he was part of the group that got beaten crossing the Edmund Pettus Bridge. Paul was the one that would call me over... because I lived about two or three miles from the church and I'd walk over because I couldn't afford to take the subway or a cab and we'd sit, we'd talk, we'd pray and he's constantly telling me, hard times don't last always. Tough times don't last, tough people do. Ron Lawson: So that's what got me out of that but once again, it was the Holy... one of the things Holy Cross also teaches you is, you are fortified to accomplish anything and as such, when somebody offers an opportunity to you that you might not necessarily be comfortable with or think you have the background for, you jump at it because you know you'll figure it out and that's what happened to me. My best friend at the time had run both of Harold Washington's mayoral campaigns and was in New York, he was the vice chair of an investment banking firm and Mayor Dinkins asked him to be the treasurer, campaign treasurer for his re-election campaign. Ken and I had dinner one night and Ken asked me if I would serve as the CFO because as Ken... and he was a real funny guy, as Ken put it, he said, "you know in New York state law, a political campaign treasurer can go to prison if there's misappropriations of funds of malfeasance", and he said, "so I need you to set up the financial infrastructure so you can watch my back because I am too pretty to go to prison". So that's how I got there. So I wound up managing an $11,000,000 political campaign, had about 15 staff members. Christian Haynes: So I think that definitely had an effect on what you do now and being the... Ron Lawson: That did, yeah. Christian Haynes: Yeah. Being the COO of Care for the Homeless, which I was a part of for one summer, as an intern. Not only that, I'm thinking about it right now, you taught me a lot but the biggest thing that I took away from you during that summer was the way you treated other homeless people. A lot of people, especially in New York City, homeless people get treated as if they're not a human being, nothing, just on the street but the way you would interact with them, and it's not just giving them money or giving them food, you would actually interact with them and I remember me, you and Nikai was coming from dinner one time and you told us just to go to the office and I just felt like you were going to a business meeting. You made it seem like you were going to a business meeting. Christian Haynes: Then I saw you going... I don't know the guy's name but it was in the corner of the same block that the office is on and you was talking to him, you was talking to him for a good minute and that right there just showed me the type of person you were and I guess it showed me a little bit what you learned yourself when you was homeless yourself for those six months and it was just like... and I'm glad. I'm really glad I had that opportunity and it just opened my eyes to a lot of things. I'm pretty sure that's one of the messages you try to tell people, in a way. Ron Lawson: Yeah. Holy Cross espouses and the model/mantra is, "men and women for others". So I don't want to have this journey and not be of service to others. It's not just selfishness in the sense of, well people helped me and I want to help other people, it's that it's what we're supposed to do. It's how, I think, an individual is supposed to live their life. The road to success is a journey, not a destination. In my view, you are never completely successful until you're put to rest and somebody is eulogizing you and says the world was a better place because you were here, because you lived in it. I take the work I do at Care for the Homeless differently in the sense that I am selfish because those 15 years on Wall Street, I always felt good about making a lot of money but I never felt good about what I was doing for someone else because I didn't care. So having to be humbled was God's way of telling me, you need to start focusing on other folks and not yourself. Ron Lawson: So I have the best experience in the world, I'm helping the folks who are least among us to get back on their feet, to find meaning in their own lives and because I go to work every day, I can honestly say, when I go home and I lay my head on the pillow at night, somebody somewhere is a little better off because I went to work today and I like the way that makes me feel. Christian Haynes: That's great. I remember you telling me that. You think if you didn't have that humbling experience, you would have went from business to non-profit, as you did? Ron Lawson: I don't know. I think I would have gotten to a point where I would have gotten tired of Wall Street and looked for other opportunities but I don't know when and where that would have come. So I think God just accelerated it for me. Christian Haynes: Has it always been instilled in you to give back or to want to give back? Ron Lawson: It has but not as prominent as it became once I started working for the mayor because that was a turning point for me because now I was working for the mayor of New York and no matter what your political persuasions... he was running against Rudy Giuliani and we literally saw it as good guy versus the bad guy, that's how we saw it. It was the very first time that I worked for a purpose and not just a paycheck. My wife will tell you, the night the mayor lost, we were engaged and we were living together at the time, we went to her house after the campaign because we were in the mayor's suite at the Sheraton and we couldn't stay any longer because we could tell he was losing so we went home and I started looking at the returns on the TV and after about three or four minutes I started crying and I couldn't stop crying. Then the TV went black. Never happened before that, never happened after that. So I think it was a sign where I just didn't have the emotional capacity to deal with him losing. So that's some of what I feel at Care for the Homeless, this is not just collecting a salary, there's a purpose behind the paycheck. It's a gratifying experience. Christian Haynes: Yeah. You've done a lot of great things, in my eyes, as an alumnus of the school. One of the things you helped do is created the ALANA Mentor Program. I've benefited form that. I've met a couple of alumnus who I still keep in touch with today, we're great... I actually just had a conversation with one of them. What made you want to create that? Ron Lawson: I want y'all to have what I never had, on a variety of levels. The ALANA Mentoring Program, that's why I was also key in starting the Bishop Healy Emergency Fund because a lot of times we don't have the resources that other folks on campus have and a lot of times the resources we need aren't huge. There's some kids that can't take the GMATs or can't take the LSATs or can't take the MCATs because they can't pay the application fee. Christian Haynes: Right. Ron Lawson: So the ALANA... the Bishop Healy Emergency Fund can do that. Can't get home for a winter break, come from the south and don't have a winter coat. The mentoring program, as I told you, who did I counsel with? Ted and Stan. Ted and Stan. The mentoring program, I thought, was an opportunity to connect more students of color on campus with alumni of color who were in the same fields that the students may have an interest in. I just thought it was a necessary addition to a student's collegiate experience here at Holy Cross. Christian Haynes: You know how it's set up? Ron Lawson: How it's set up? Christian Haynes: Yeah, how people are matched with the alumni. Ron Lawson: Well I know how I started it and... I called Amy Murphy in career development and she told me she thought it was a good idea and she said okay, here are some student's names that said they're interested and here's the list of alumni. I literally sat in my living room for two or three days, looking at alumni careers and their careers and then the students and what their interests were and started matching them. So now, I don't know how it's evolved, I know it has on some level. Christian Haynes: Yeah, similar it's just I thought it was interesting that the names aren't on the list, it's just the occupation and where they're located and the year that they graduated. So for us students it's like, we don't know who's who, we just know a little bit about them and you know the things that they've done on campus, whether that's sports or BSU or anything like that. So I thought that was pretty interesting. Ron Lawson: Yeah, it is. Christian Haynes: The Bishop Healy Fund too, a lot of people have benefited over that. I know somebody who just came home from an immersion trip and told me that it was a life changing trip and it was because of the Bishop Healy Fund so we want to thank you... I think I speak for everybody when we say, we want to thank you and those who have helped you create the Bishop Healy Fund and the ALANA Mentoring Program. Ron Lawson: So I appreciate the thanks but I'll tell you, like I was told by my friends that helped me out of that tough period of time, when you start moving forward in your career, make sure you reach back and make sure you do it for someone else. Christian Haynes: Yeah. Yeah I honestly think that was... the ALANA Mentoring Program, that was the thing that made me want to give back. I haven't graduated yet but I've told myself that, when I get to where I want to be, I want to give back. Ron Lawson: I would challenge you on that and say, don't wait until you get to where you want to be. Start now because you being out of school a year or two, you're going to be far more relatable to a sophomore or junior on campus than I am, 45 years out. So don't think you don't have anything to offer just because you haven't achieved what successes based upon what you define it to be. And, stay connected. I know you and Maura are going to say, oh here he goes again, because I know I'm preaching to the converted but I always like to state, that if you are a graduate of The College of the Holy Cross and you don't take advantage of the alumni network, you have discounted your degree by 25%. Christian Haynes: Yeah I definitely hear that and I will do as you say. Ron Lawson: How did you get your job last summer? Christian Haynes: Last summer or the summer before? Ron Lawson: Last summer. Christian Haynes: Last summer? Same story as the other one anyways. Ron Lawson: No, who'd you work for? Christian Haynes: Huh? Ron Lawson: Who'd you work for? Christian Haynes: Schone Malliet Ron Lawson: And what is he? Christian Haynes: He is an alumnus. Ron Lawson: From what class? '74. Christian Haynes: I thought '76? Ron Lawson: '74. Christian Haynes: Yeah. Ron Lawson: The point I'm making is, your last two summer jobs came because you reached out to the Holy Cross alumni. Christian Haynes: Right. Actually, everybody that I've spoke to to get those two jobs were alumnus or alumni. Ron Lawson: See? Christian Haynes: Interesting. But yeah, like I said before, I didn't know the strength of... the power of the purple. Ron Lawson: Yep. There's nothing like it. Christian Haynes: Yeah until when I needed to start connecting with people because I needed a job for the summer or anything like that. Yeah, what would you say is your mission statement, if you were to have one? If you don't have one, now's your time to create one. Ron Lawson: Personal mission statement? Christian Haynes: However you want to take it. Ron Lawson: To share as much as I can with as many people as I can. I take umbrage and I take it personally whenever I speak to a Holy Cross alumnus who tells me they didn't have the same experience I had. It bothers me when somebody walks away from this hill and says it wasn't four of the best years of their life. I know it can't be the case 100% of the time but I would hope it's the overriding case 98% of the time and those occurrences are few and far between. So I feel it's incumbent upon me to do everything I can to give back to the students who are on campus now so they can walk away saying it was four of the best years of their life. So whereas you have other alum who have interests to serve on the board or serve on the alumni association board, which I have done, I really get excited about connecting personally with students on campus, while they're on campus. Christian Haynes: How would you say the Holy Cross mission statement has effected your work? Ron Lawson: It makes it easy for me to say I come from an institution like this because this institution's motto is, "men and women for others", and that is what this school is known for and how the students live their lives on campus. So it's very interesting and another example of how deep the network runs is, Yankelly Villa, who you may know, was one of the presidential scholars last year. She posted on LinkedIn that she was coming to New York to get a master's degree at the new school and she needed a job, I saw it, she is now my operations assistant. Harry Thomas, class of '78, former ambassador to Bangladesh, Philippines, Zimbabwe, sits on the board of trustees, I asked him to serve on our board, he's on our board, he chairs our benefit committee and as a result of the people he knows, we now have a relationship with Ben Vereen, who's a two time Tony Award winner who is now going to headline a huge gala for us to celebrate our 35th anniversary in the fall. It is so bad that my boss, George Nashak who's a Columbia graduate, calls Care for the Homeless, Holy Cross South. Christian Haynes: In fairness, that's a good thing. Ron Lawson: Yeah, it's a very good thing for us. Christian Haynes: Yeah. All right so, we're going to do a little speed round. Ron Lawson: Okay. Christian Haynes: Just ask you questions and you can answer as fast you can. So if you was to change two things about Holy Cross, what would they be? Ron Lawson: Number of African-American students on campus. Christian Haynes: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ron Lawson: And... figuring out how to keep it from snowing so much here during the winter. Christian Haynes: Impossible. Ron Lawson: Yeah. Christian Haynes: One year, it didn't snow as much. I didn't like it because you know we still have classes when it snows. Ron Lawson: That's another thing. You don't understand, y'all be shutting down and closing school when it snows, that is like an oxymoron to me. Holy Cross is closed because it's snowed. It didn't close the four years I was here. Christian Haynes: You'd be surprised how dangerous it gets. Ron Lawson: Oh, please. Christian Haynes: There's a lot of black ice... Ron Lawson: I must admit, when my father brought me up, he brought me up, dropped me off and then he came back later in the fall, towards the end of the fall for a football game and he saw the maintenance crew putting up the long, red, metal poles with the diamonds on top on the fire hydrants and he said, "what is that for", I said, "Dad, I don't know", and like six weeks later I called him, I said, "Daddy, you know why they put those things on the fire hydrants?", he said, "no", I said, "because the snow's so deep, they can't find them, that's the only way they can find them". So... I know the first one's far more realistic than the second. Christian Haynes: Yeah. Best place to eat in Worcester, back in the day? Ron Lawson: There was none. Christian Haynes: Really? Nothing? Ron Lawson: No. Christian Haynes: Not Miss Woo's? Ron Lawson: McDonald's. That's pretty much it. Christian Haynes: Wait, Miss Woo's is there. Miss Worcester's Diner. Ron Lawson: I didn't do that. I am not going to eat any place... under a place that is called Pigeon Bridge. Where Miss Woo is, that bridge, they used to call it Pigeon Bridge. Christian Haynes: Oh, did not know that. Ron Lawson: Yeah. Christian Haynes: Makes a lot of sense. Ron Lawson: There you go. Christian Haynes: All right, best place to eat in Worcester now? Ron Lawson: Oh, Sole Proprietor. Christian Haynes: Actually been there, it's pretty good. Ron Lawson: Yeah. Christian Haynes: Would you rather life as a student or life as an alum? Ron Lawson: Life as an alum. Christian Haynes: Ideal vacation spot? Ron Lawson: South Africa. Christian Haynes: Why? Ron Lawson: Because I haven't been. Christian Haynes: Okay. I was going to ask your favorite dorm but you said you spent all four years at Healy. Ron Lawson: Yeah. Christian Haynes: Favorite year? Ron Lawson: Every year. Christian Haynes: No, favorite year. What was that? Ron Lawson: Favorite year? Christian Haynes: Yeah. Ron Lawson: '75. Christian Haynes: Okay. If you were to win the lottery, what is the next thing you're doing? Ron Lawson: How much? Christian Haynes: I don't know, 100 mil. Ron Lawson: 100 mil? Christian Haynes: Yeah. Ron Lawson: Make sure my families and friends are secured. Christian Haynes: I'm one of those friends. Ron Lawson: I'd think about it. Sit down with the school to see what their needs are. Have a conversation with Father Boroughs and Tracy Barlok and make a sensible contribution to the college that's going to help move it forward and move the mission forward and set up a need-blind scholarship program for students coming to campus. Christian Haynes: Favorite song or best song that reflected your time at Holy Cross? Ron Lawson: Theme from Shaft. Christian Haynes: Theme from what? Ron Lawson: Theme from Shaft. Isaac Hayes. That's all that was playing when I got here. Christian Haynes: A book you've read that has changed your perspective on life. Ron Lawson: Fraternity. Christian Haynes: Okay. If given the money needed, what would be the first thing you'd invent? Ron Lawson: A quicker mode of transportation from my house to work in the morning. Christian Haynes: You're on a road trip, who's in the car and what are you guys listening to? Ron Lawson: Nina, my wife, is in the car and we're listening to Stevie Wonder's Inner Visions/Fulfillingness' First Finale and Songs in the Key of Life, in sequence. Christian Haynes: Well, that's all I got. Ron Lawson: All right. Christian Haynes: Always a pleasure. I appreciate you coming down here and taking the time to do this, it was very exciting for me. I hope you had a good time. Ron Lawson: I enjoyed myself and I appreciate you asking. Christian Haynes: Yeah, no doubt. Maura Sweeney: That's our show, I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be men and women for, and with, others. A special thanks to today's guest and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you, or someone you know, would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the office of alumni relations at The College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host Maura Sweeney and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, now go forth and set the world on fire. --- Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

Luke Knox ’22 speaks with Joe Morgan ‘81 about what it takes to be a successful entrepreneur, and how his Holy Cross education prepared him to lead with integrity. Recorded on January 28, 2020 --- Transcript Joe: So, the experiences that I had at Holy Cross created tremendous friendships but also expanded my mind and allowed me to get into situations that are uncomfortable for me, but then find a place for me within that circumstance. And I think a lot of times that I see people that don't have that background, they get into a circumstance, they get fixed on their belief, and they can't participate in critical thinking. And critical thinking is the essence of what I believe Jesuit education's all about, is it puts you on a circumstance where you are given the tools, but then almost expected to participate in a broader discussion. And as soon as you get stubborn and dig in, unless of course you're in a debate, you lose the opportunity, I think, to take full advantage of the Holy Cross education. Maura: Welcome to Mission-Driven where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney from the Class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. Maura: This episode features Joe Morgan from the Class of 1981, a self-proclaimed poster child of Worcester higher education, Joe is a Worcester native who attended Holy Cross, WPI, and Clark University. After beginning his career as an engineer, he quickly rose through the ranks to serve as President of Sony Chemicals Corporation of America. From there, he pursued corporate roles at numerous private and public companies. At each stage, he used his influence in the C-Suite to lead with the values that he learned in his Jesuit Holy Cross education. Maura: Luke Knox from the Class of 2022 speaks with Joe about his decision to start his own company in November 2016 called siY. Be safe. Be inspired. Be you. As an entrepreneur himself, Luke speaks with Joe about best practices in business and management. Throughout the conversation, Joe touts the importance of leading with empathy in order to transform individuals, teams, and corporations. Luke: Welcome, everyone. I'm Luke Knox, a sophomore economics major. Today I have the pleasure of speaking with Joe Morgan, Holy Cross Class of 1981. Joe, it's great to have you on today. Thank you for coming onto the show. Joe: Thanks for inviting me, Luke. Glad to be here. Luke: No problem. Yeah. Luke: Starting off, you were a chemistry major when you were at Holy Cross, and in addition to receiving a Bachelor of Arts from here, you also earned your Bachelor of Science degree from Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI) and an MBA from Clark University. It sounds like you've been educated by really the top institutions of Worcester. Joe: Right. So, I often refer to myself as the poster child of higher education in Worcester. There's actually a little bit of extra data on those choices though. I started as a math major at Holy Cross. My dad was a math major, so dutiful son, I wanted to do what my dad did. But then I didn't like it, so I became a chemistry major. And then there was a 3/2 program with WPI, and I like scale, big scale instead of beakers and labs, so I didn't really like the experimental side of chemistry, so I went and got a chemical engineering degree at WPI. And then I needed a business degree in order to do what I do, which I'm sure we're going to talk about. Luke: Yeah, we'll get to that. That's great. Worcester, obviously, grew up in Worcester. Great schools here. It's nice to see that homegrown and experiencing all that Worcester has to offer. And I know that, from being a chemistry major at Holy Cross, now you're getting your MBA and you're running businesses, you're obviously a very highly motivated individual. And in your opinion, what would you say your personal mission is and how does that drive you in the work you do? Joe: Well, I think when I was growing up, my parents focused on a few things. One was faith, certainly, and the other was education. So they invested a lot of time in both of those. And when you have strong faith and then you've spent your time in education, you get exposed to a lot of thought process, honestly. And so what my mission is, and it does reflect back probably to my family, which is the third thing my parents focused on, is giving back to people that don't have the benefit of the things that you've been given. Joe: And so I spent a lot of time thinking about that with kid is really a passion for me. The impoverished is another thing I'm deeply passionate about. Joe: But I would say what's interesting now for me more so than ever before, I've run a lot of bigger companies, and now I have my own company, which we'll chat about. But we're at a time I think in our world and our country where we can't seem to get to a common agenda. And so, I have a mission or a passion now to help people see the possibilities of that. Because leadership is daily providing a platform for hope, but then wrapping it with reality. And that's what I spend my time on each day and more. Joe: There's a thing called The Bridge that I've developed with some folks, and we can chat a little bit about that, but that's the essence of my focus now is to help people see the possibilities, but deep down inside for me, it's the kids. It's just making sure that that next generation can see the possibilities of the future. And I don't think today in every case that is true, so that's something that me and others like me are spending time on. Luke: And that same thought process intertwines right with the Holy Cross mission statement- Joe: Right. Luke: ... men and women for others. Joe: Right. Luke: And could you speak a little more about how that... being at Holy Cross and going by that motto, how that has also affected you and your life decisions? Joe: You know what? I was chatting this morning about this, is I think growing up in a Catholic education is a lot of memorization that takes place. And I think if you don't get stressed about trying to memorize all the things about Jesuit education and the mission and the vision and all, but just live it, let it penetrate you, then I think the possibilities of living what you just said comes to be. Joe: So, the experiences that I had at Holy Cross created tremendous friendships but also expanded my mind and allowed me to get into situations that are uncomfortable for me, but then find a place for me within that circumstance. And I think a lot of times that I see people that don't have that background, they get into a circumstance, they get fixed on their belief, and they can't participate in critical thinking. And critical thinking is the essence of what I believe Jesuit education's all about, is it puts you on a circumstance where you are given the tools, but then almost expected to participate in a broader discussion. And as soon as you get stubborn and dig in, unless of course you're in a debate, you lose the opportunity, I think, to take full advantage of the Holy Cross education. Joe: Now where that's taken me in my career, you mentioned WPI and the 3/2 program, I always say that Holy Cross helped me get every job that I have because I learned communication skills, I learned adaptation. WPI allowed me to advance in technical fields because of the process expertise that I was able to glean through that particular education. And that combination was really powerful for me. Luke: And going back to what you were saying about communication skills, I think when I was thinking about my own choices on where I wanted to go to school, I definitely wanted to go somewhere like Holy Cross where I could learn those crucial communication skills. And I know that being in business, being an entrepreneur, how like you were just saying, how really important being able to present yourself and effectively communicate with others, how important that is to not only sell a product, but to grow a business. I was wondering if you could speak more about that and how you've used your communication skill to further your career? Joe: On the communications side, simplicity is so, so important. I am sure as you've gone through your entrepreneurial journey you probably got way too complex at the start, and people have advised you to make it simple, simple, simple. The one-pager, whatever they've told you, and it's true. Because people can't absorb more than that generally. And as the entrepreneur, as the person with the idea, you know way more than they do, and you're trying to engage them just a little bit in what you do so that they'll help you, whether you want money or you want them to buy the product or you want advocacy, whatever that might me, on the communications side, simple, simple, simple. But then also be really clear on knowing your audience. What is it that you want from them or need from them or desire from them and focus only on that. Don't make it broader because you'll lose them. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs that I'm around, they get so passionate about what they do, they lose sight of why they're in this particular conversation and dialog. So that would be one thing. Joe: The other thing is the issue of courage. You have to be somewhat courageous to be an entrepreneur. That doesn't mean that you're necessarily saving lives or something like that. You might, depending upon what you do, but you really do have to have courage because as I'm sure, you can share this with the group too, the audience, is there's a lot of negative that comes from entrepreneurialism. You get a lot of feedback that hurts. And how fast do you respond to that is going to be important. Your resilience quotient is really, really important because if you get stubborn and say, "I don't really care what you said to me. I'm just going to continue to do what I was doing." Probably shouldn't take that approach. There's some value in every input that you get. Joe: The other, probably the third part of this is trust. Be really careful who you look to for trust. If someone doesn't have your interest in mind, it's really all about them, then you're probably not going to get good advice. So that's the other part. So, you want to focus on being courageous, learn a lot, but then your advice, and then always, always, always be simple. Luke: And I think it's super important as an entrepreneur, and I'm sure that you realize this as well, is that when you receive that, it always happens you're going to receive negative criticism. And I think me personally, in my own experience, I've taken that really, not as an opportunity to be bitter, but to be better and to realize, okay, it's really important to view every single opinion that's coming at me with, whether you have a product or a business or you're offering a service, anything like that, and to use it to every day learn more about yourself, learn more about what you want to do, your product, whatever, and use that to help you out in that business setting the next day. Joe: Right. Luke: Stuff like that. Joe: Well, I think, you're an entrepreneur, so when you start a business, it's probably your money. So- Luke: Yeah, it is. Joe: ... people that are around you, it's not their money. So it's easy to spend someone's money if it's not your money. And then time is all you have. So if you waste your time and waste your money, you're not going to have the opportunity to create something of value from your ideas. So really what's important is keeping it simple, but then taking the input from people that you trust and adapting quickly so that you can use whatever resource you have, which I think for... As I'm an entrepreneur too, you end up just with a little bit of time and a little bit of money, and if you use it right, you can turn it into more time and more money. If you use it badly, then it spirals. So, I'm sure you've experienced that. Joe: I think the other part of entrepreneurialism too is at some point you want whatever you're doing to grow, and at that point you're going to bring in other people. Learning how to trust other people is really a big deal, and I actually think that gets back to your first question about Holy Cross, is you believe in the mission, which I think we do or we wouldn't be sitting here, and you are a good judge of people, you always have to validate, you can bring people in far more easily than people that don't have belief in others. And you'll never be able to get the benefit of what your idea is if you can't eventually bring people into the conversation. Joe: I have been the intrepreneur a number of times working for entrepreneurs early in my career, and I actually never asked the question, but they trusted me enough to let me do the things on their behalf because they knew that they couldn't scale it beyond their own means. But I've also seen entrepreneurs that don't trust anybody, and it's a problem because their idea's great, but who wants to work in an environment where you're not trusted? Where every day you think, "Oh my gosh, you've taken something from me?" That's not helpful. So what happens then is people leave. The really good ones leave and then they get marginalized and the business never really achieves what it set out to do. Joe: So that would be a piece of advice for you because I hope that what you're doing just explodes- Luke: Thank you. Yeah. Joe: ... but you're going to have to bring in other people when you do it, you know? Luke: Yeah. And we're kind of in that process right now where we're really building a team. And I know that one of your skills is being able to do that and build a successful team. And if you just had to list off a couple of big characteristics that every team regardless of what business they're in or whatever, what are those main characteristics that every team kind of needs to have? Joe: I thought you were going to ask me a different question, so I'm going to answer the one I thought you were going to ask me, and then I will answer... Joe: I think the first thing to build a team is you have to know what you are good at. So get a white board and write that down. Don't write it in a notebook. Put it on the wall and then walk past it for a few days and make sure that you're being honest with yourself. Don't put it in a notebook, close it, stick it somewhere that you'll never go retrieve it. Put it on a wall. And then let a couple people that you know that actually care about you look at it and say, "You know what, Luke, I don't agree with that. You think you're really good at that but you're actually not." And so move that to the other one which is, whatever the right term is, deficiency or something that I can improve. But be really clear on the three to five things that you're really great at, but then also compare that to what you're most passionate about. Joe: If you could spend the amount of time that you spend on entrepreneurialism, what part of that do you love the most? And if you could spend all your time doing that, because that's likely to equate to value. Once you get that right, now you can start filling in the spots. And don't think about it so much functionally, although eventually you have to have competency in the functions. Think about it in terms of behaviors and values. You've got to get people with the same values as yourself, and they have to be able to articulate that and then demonstrate it. So that's one. Joe: The second one is the behaviors which are different. Values are aligned in the sand. Integrity, think honesty, things like that. Behaviors are when faced with a pressure situation, I scream and yell. That's a behavior. Luke: Right. Joe: I'm guessing you probably don't want that around. Luke: No. Yeah. Joe: You want somebody that's going to get on the balls of their feet and participate and dig in. That's a behavior that you might want in your business. So I'd be really clear on who you are, where you like to spend your time, get the attitudes and the behaviors and the values right. Joe: Now you can talk about financial. So if you're going to scale your business, you're an economics major so you have some reasonable financial understanding, but you do have to have financial expertise in your business so people can cover your back so you can do all those great things you want to do. Joe: Without sales, we don't have a business, so that may be your strength, but you might be the idea person. You may be the product manager, whatever that strength is. So if you need sales and you need finance, make sure that you've got really strong people in the marketplace that you're in. Now you could have a pure online business in which case you need somebody with e-commerce expertise. Whatever that core thing is, get the best you can, and whatever you think you can afford, pay a little more. Because what tends to happen, I see a lot of times with entrepreneurs is you scale it back just a little bit, and you want people to feel like you do, but they're not going to because it's not their business. Luke: Good point. Yeah. Joe: So, don't ever be misguided by a person's individual passion to be an employee versus an entrepreneur. They're different. They're just different. So I think it's really about who the person is first, and then you get to the acumen. Because I'm on a lot of boards with people and I meet some people that are just misaligned on the behaviors and the values, but they're wicked smart. And I can tell you the wicked smart does not trump values and behaviors ever. Eventually that is going to catch up, and it's I would... that's kind of the pecking order that I would recommend. Luke: Yeah, values and behavior, definitely. Joe: Always. Joe: And it depends on what you need in your business too. I don't know the details of your company, but you have to be clear on what competencies are most critical to you. Luke: Great point. And then being a leader in those teams, I know in one of your most recent articles, you talk about having the ability to really fully understand what's going on in somebody's life and how that might affect them in the workplace and outside of it. Joe: Right. Luke: Being a leader in a team and definitely being a leader in a startup company, how do you think that, myself or you, how do you go about that with being compassionate and empathetic towards your employees, your partners, people in your company? Joe: Well, this gets to curiosity. I was asked recently in an article, what do truly curious people do? It's not questions. It's about answers. So you're asking me questions right now. You're curious about those, I can tell by this conversation. But if you were just asking questions and you don't really care what I say, we're not going to have a very productive conversation. Luke: Right. Joe: And you're not going to demonstrate any compassion. Or interest, actually. Joe: So, I think the most important thing is that first question or two that you ask in any interaction. Demonstrate that you actually about the person. So for example, we've faced some tragedy here at Holy Cross recently and I am quite confident that people that were closest to that, if you tried to have a conversation about something other than that circumstance, it would be very, very difficult for them. And you might have planned for weeks, months, maybe even six months, a year, to have a particular meeting with someone that might have been close to that situation, and you want to talk about your product. And you know what? They don't want to talk about your product. They're dealing with something that is just life changing and devastating to them. And if you have no ability to be sympathetic to that, then how are you possibly ever going to connect with them? Joe: And that's one of the things I've learned in my career is you can plan and prepare as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, for that sale or that interaction, but what happened just before that person walked in the room is going to affect whether that interaction that have been planning for is successful or not. And so we need to draw that out. We need to not take it personally if they're not involved in the meeting. Something awful might have happened. Joe: I'll tell you a small story. My daughter was sick, and she was diagnosed with mono when she was in high school. And I was in a board meeting and my office was attached to the board room. And I had a board member that was very high personality and I'm a high personality too, and so he and I would often get into these challenges of one another. And as CEO, I'm supposed to accept that, and generally I did, and I kind of facilitated it. But when I heard my daughter was sick, my energy and my life is driven by my children and my wife, and so when I heard that I was just really affected by it. And so of course I walked into the board room moments after that, and within 15 minutes he was, not attacking, but he was on me again, and to me that was a game-on moment. And my back went up and I leaned in, and it was one of the most intense interactions of my career. Joe: Did I say anything inappropriate? No. Could I have taken a different track? For sure. Could you have heard a pin drop in the room? Absolutely. And he and I went at it, and then afterward he finally asked me what was different about today, and I said, "Here's why." "So why didn't you tell me that?" I said, "You never asked a question. You've never asked me a question about me ever." Joe: And so that to me is one of the largest demonstrations. You can have tremendous people around you, but if you never ask them anything about them, how you possibly going to get the most out of the relationship? You won't. So that would be most advice is really get the questions right, and really care about the answers. And then once you know the answers, if the meeting that you were going to have isn't possible now, talk about the other thing. Go there. Joe: I will say this though. There's a lot of conversation about empathy right now. I think empathy is one of the most difficult things. Pure definition, I see the world as you do. I think that's really, really hard, but I do think if you listen to people and have the right conversation, you can get closer and closer to their life experiences. But I think empathy is one of the most challenging things in the world. Luke: And it sounds like from what you're saying, a huge part in working with clients or working with your team is having a relationship with them- Joe: Yeah. Sure. Luke: ... and like a pure relationship. And I definitely agree with you that that understanding and that ability to emphasize with people, granted it is very difficult to do that, but putting your effort into that shows and people definitely can appreciate that. Joe: So for you, what is your favorite place on campus here? Luke: My favorite place? Probably Cool Beans. Joe: Cool Beans. Why? Luke: It's just a place where usually I'm studying in the science library or Dinand, and it's just like a place where go back, get a coffee, kind of decompress and just kind of enjoy myself for a little bit before I go back to studying. Joe: So it's comforting to you, right? Luke: Yeah. Definitely. Joe: It allows you... Do you think better there? Luke: Yeah. I do. Joe: So that's really interesting question, isn't it? Luke: Yeah, it is. Joe: So if I want to have a- Luke: It is. Yeah. Joe: ... really interesting conversation with you, that would be the place we should go. Luke: True. Joe: We shouldn't go where I want to go. If I want to have a conversation about you, then I need to find where you're most comfortable. And then let's go there. Joe: So here's an interesting thing. When I was first a manager, there were all these books about management, leadership, and... I had some managers that, "We're going to adopt this book." You know what? That's not really what we should do. Think about Holy Cross. When you read all these books we read, you're only two years in and I was here for four years. I didn't commit to memory everything I read, but I adapted my life to certain principles that I learned, and then I paid attention to the professors who have read far more than I ever would read about a specific topic. I wasn't trying to memorize all of it or have my life guided verbatim with everything I learned. It was really about this will help me shape it. Joe: So there was this thing called manage by walking around. So, okay. We're going to manage by walking around, which was about visibility. People would get feedback that managers weren't visible, so we have to be more visible. So what managers would do... I wasn't a manager. I was becoming a manager. They would just appear. So what would your reaction be if you're in the middle of doing something and a person that you never see suddenly appears? What would your reaction be do you think? Luke: I would probably be first, like if it was my boss or something that came over, I would definitely make sure I was really paying attention to everything I'm doing and doing it the best I can, and then try to get some type of one-on-one interaction with them if I never see them and kind of put a face to their name. Joe: So you're taking the burden of that. It's supposed to be them making you feel good, and you're feeling like you have your change your behaviors- Luke: Work harder and- Joe: Yeah. Exactly. Luke: ... yeah. Yeah. You feel on the spot. Yeah. Joe: Precisely. I was annoyed because I don't... they weren't adding any value to me. So I thought that was really... to be honest with you, I thought that was stupid, a really stupid guiding principle. So I think management by walking together is better. Joe: So what I do and have done is I go get somebody and say, "Let's go take a walk." And it's fascinating what happens when you take a walk with someone versus sitting in a small space with someone. There's a lot going on. You can point out things, say, "Hey." It's just more comforting, more casual, and so that's the way I began doing it. And I learned so much about people getting, again, closer to empathy by walking with them as opposed to walking into their environment and hovering over them and making them feel like I was participating, when in fact, I really wasn't. Joe: I didn't do it but once or twice. I thought it was foolish, and then I did this other thing. It was really great. So that's how I did my one-on-ones and my up-to-speeds and all that stuff with people, which was great. Luke: Because sometimes in my opinion, it can feel like if you have a boss hovering over you, it almost feels like they're micromanaging you. And that kind of makes you feel a little degraded and kind of, "Hey, I can do my job. I don't need him watching over me." Joe: Right. Luke: And I think that's a great idea of walking around with whoever is in your company and really, like I was saying, building that relationship with them. Joe: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, because it's... You break barriers that way. Joe: I had a guy that worked for me, 6'7", and I used to get feedback that he would be intimidating sometimes. He's the nicest guy, and what he would do is he would walk up to someone when they were sitting at their desk and he'd lean over them. He was like Godzilla. And they would be so intimidated by his size, but he was the nicest guy. And all I told him to do was just sit down. Just sit down with them. And then he... And that barrier went away. It was fine. But he just, he wasn't intimidating, but he... intending to be intimidating. Luke: And building that relationship and how have you as a leader within the company that you're starting right now, siY, how have you adopted those same principles into, hey, now you're the CEO. Now you're running this company. You're at the very top. How have you done that as the head of this company? Joe: The truth of that is when you're running a big company like I've had the fortune of doing, you have a platform. I have employed large numbers of employees that work for me and if there's something that I want to convey, get across, I have resources all over the place. I don't have that now. I have a virtual company essentially. And so, I have a large group of executives that I have great regard for that work as part of my network. I have some other people that subcontract work to me. So my influence has to be demonstrated in a very, very different way. Joe: So I'm on the front end of the business creating demand for what we do at siY, and then engaging these folks as independent people. But they buy into the mission. It goes back to what I said before, we have values in our company, we have behavioral expectations, and then we have a vision to create environments where dialog leads to impact. It's not to create a dialog, but it's actually to have an impact. And everybody agrees with that. Joe: So we go together in our own walks of life, not associated entirely to siY, but when we come together, that's who we are. So it's a very different experience for me, but one that has yielded so many incredible situations that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to do. Luke: At siY, could you tell me a little more about what you do? Joe: Sure. Luke: How you got the name? Joe: Let me tell you the story on the name because I think that really kind of demonstrates my career journey. When I came out of WPI, I was a chemical engineer. That was 1983. Market wasn't so good. Economy was rough. So I ended up taking a job as a buyer. And I figured, my father always said, "You may not be the biggest," which I'm not, "you may not be the smartest," I'm not, "but no one should ever out work you." So I figured if I get a job, I'll just work really, really hard and then I'll create opportunities for myself. Which I was fortunate to do. Joe: And the first big job I got was a safety engineer. So, I was working at a chemical plant focused on safety. And what I found was that the mechanism of creating a safe environment for people was vital to being successful in business, but attitudes and behavior were so important in order for that environment to actually be created. Joe: So the first part of be safe was physical safety. And then I experienced that, and then I also had experiences as a manager, and I realized that emotional safety is also very important. Going back to that conversation we had just a few moments ago, people have stuff going on in their lives. It's actually okay to cry and laugh. Don't judge people because they have emotion. Actually try and help them leverage their emotion in a positive way. So emotional safety was really, really important. I always say every person who's ever worked for me has cried at some point, not because I'm yelling or mean to them, but because they have something going on in their life and they need to express it. Joe: The other one is people are really, really smart and they have a lot of experiences. They may be different experiences, but I respect you, Luke, for what you've done already. And those experiences that you have and your intellect, I need to learn from you just as you're learning from me. But a lot of people don't do that because you don't have my experience. You don't have gray hair yet. So therefore, your experiences aren't really relevant. Not true. Absolutely not true. Luke: Right. Joe: So the other one is intellectual safety. I need to create an environment where you can feel that whatever experience and intellect you have can be applied. So those are three parts. Joe: I started with a triangle, and then I realized cyber safety is very, very important in the world we're in today. Having had my identification stolen, I know that personally. So now I call that the safety diamond. So physical, intellectual, emotional, and cyber safety. So we talk about that. So be safe. Inspired is... I'm not an alarm clock. You have to get out of bed in the morning, but then I'm going to ask you one question. What are you most passionate about? That question I ask you, if you could spend all of your time doing something, what would it be? And once you tell me that, if you're willing to tell me that, let's focus on that and I'll inspire the hell out of you to be able to go after that dream. I will push you in ways that will allow you to live that dream. That's the inspired part. Joe: And then you, in my company it's YOU, there's something about you, maybe more than one thing, that's truly unique. It's not that you're an economics major. There's a lot of economics majors. There's something about you, and let's find out what that is and let's celebrate that. So create a safe environment, find your passion, inspire you to continue to peck away at that every day, and then celebrate what's unique about you, that's be safe; be inspired; be you. Joe: The logo of my company is a wave. I grew up going to Maine in the summer. Surfed a little bit. Always found that the whole surfing thing, you have to work really, really hard. You have to be strategic to choose when to go. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. And if it doesn't work, then you... some people get mad and they leave, but you just go back out until you get that. And when you get that wave, it is the best feeling in the world. Luke: It's great, yeah. Joe: It is absolutely one of the best feelings ever, and that's why the wave's there. And the blue is the eyes of my kids. And so every time I look at it, I see my children, which is the source of a great deal of energy for me. Luke: Totally. Joe: So that's why that's where that is. And my daughter designed it for me. And she's a Holy Cross grad. Luke: Oh nice. Joe: So, be safe; be inspired; be you; that's how that all came together, and where that comes to live is we do advisory work for small to mid-sized companies, and we help them... we bring people with experiences that they normally wouldn't be able to access due to the size of their company, and we help them do things with strategy, culture, and... sometimes it's the finances and the business, but it's always strategy and culture. But everything we do starts with people. And if we are not allowed to interact with the people, we can't do business with them because that's where it all starts. So, that's what we do. Luke: That's nice. Yeah. A consulting firm for- Joe: Yeah, we do advisory consulting. Luke: Yeah, for those small companies who might not be able to access- Joe: That's right. Luke: ... the resources of a large consulting firm like McKinsey or something like that. Joe: Right. With have the skills of companies, the larger companies, but we do it at a point where, price point, and also a participation point that's a little different. Luke: And back to what you were saying about... personal interaction and culture, do you mean the culture within that said company? Joe: Yes. But that's a great question because culture is all about interactions. And so, interactions are not just the employees or the team or whatever the term is for the company; it's really whoever you interact with. So there's a supplier interaction. There's a customer interaction. There's a community interaction. And if it's a privately held business, there's a family interaction. So you have to be concerned and confident in all of those things. Joe: We take an operator's view. So we try and sit on the side of the table of the owner or the leaders, and that's how we come at it every day. We don't come in with a mechanism, we're going to say, "This is how you do it." We're going to adapt our business to... or excuse me, our approach to what is most appropriate for the company that we're doing business with. And we're not for everybody because not everybody wants to share everything about what they do. Luke: Very true. Luke: So essentially, reiterating, you go in. For each different client you work with, do you attack that operation differently? Like so for company X, you might advise them this way, but then for this company, you're doing it in a different way. Do you approach each person you work with the same, or do you kind of take it as a case-by-case scenario? Joe: I would say... That's a great, that's a very good question because I think there has to be somewhat of an approach that's consistent- Luke: Sure. Yeah. Joe: ... or you can never scale it. So there is a... It always starts with an assessment. So, I always meet with the CEO. I would say 9 out of 10 times I interact with the board, if there is one. Most of the time there is. And then I talk to the most senior leaders of the company. And then I walk the business with them, going back to my walking thing. I want to see the business myself. Because sometimes people describe the business to you in a room, and then you go out, and like that is not at all what's going on here. So you get a really good sense right away how people react to people. Joe: So for example, I have had numerous situations where a CEO would tell me, "I am absolutely connected with the employees of the company." And then they walk out there, and everybody turns away as they walk in. And so that's not... So they're missing something there. Joe: So it's really, the assessment is, tell me about your business. Let me talk to some people so that I can balance it. Let's go for a walk. And then let's come back. I'll give you some observations and some thoughts on it. And from there, let's build a plan. What is it that you need to do? Joe: And it could be that we help people kind of restate their vision. We help people understand the value system that actually exists within their business. Have they been consistent there? And spend some time on the truths of the company. What is it that is actually going on here? And then from there, I would say that all the time there's a transformation happening in the business. Joe: If you go back to the first question you asked me about Holy Cross and the Jesuits, that it's evolution. It's about evolution, evolving as people. And that's what happens in companies too. You may have a great idea as an entrepreneur but it's not going to last forever. In fact, in your lifetime- Luke: Very true. Yeah. Joe: ... ideas come and go far more quickly than they did when I was starting at your age. So, we have to be aware of those changes, and we spend a lot of time with preparing the company for a transformative change. Joe: So for example, if you have a product that's been great, you've made money, and then suddenly it's starting to decline, well, it could be that the team that you have around you is really good for that, but where you need to go, it's not. So we come in as a third party and help you see the things that you wouldn't otherwise see. Joe: Because it's hard. Change is very difficult, especially when it becomes personal. Sometimes people aren't the right people and you have to help them see that, and if they can change, great. If they can't, then maybe you need to get someone different. So we do that too. We help people do it. Joe: But we try and work with companies that are probably between 50 million and a billion and a half to two billion in size. And we always work with the most senior people in the company. And we get in early, and then we help create plans, and generally we'll stay for maybe six months, and then if they want us to operate, we will, but generally, they don't. Joe: And then I have a lot of clients personally that I work with the CEO in an advisory capacity and I'm kind of a confidant to them. So we spend time talking about the business and I get to help them. Because CEO jobs are very lonely, and so they don't have anybody to talk to, so I become that person for them. So, that's just Joe Morgan. It's part of siY, but it's not the total focus. Luke: And going back to your Holy Cross education, were there any times when you were at Holy Cross or any other school in Worcester where you thought about wanting to do that in the future? Wanting to be in this line of work that you're currently in? Joe: I'll tell you, my parents were schoolteachers so we didn't talk about business. But if I was honest about it, if I go back to my first job, if I had been aware of what I was actually doing, I think the answer would have been yes, but I wasn't. I worked. I made money. I wanted... My wife and I went to Holy Cross. We got married in 1983. We've been married for 36 years. Love of my life and my best friend. Very, very fortunate. But I thought about I need a job. I'm going to advance. Hopefully as I advance, I'll get more responsibility, but I don't think it was until I got exposed to presidents of companies that I realized there was a better way. And it was at that time when I was in my late 20s where I thought, "I think I can do this better." Joe: Now, I had great mentors that were around me that taught me different things. Like my father-in-law is a finance guy. I remember when I was just out of Holy Cross, my wife Amy and I went down to visit her parents in Washington, DC, and I went to his office. The people loved him. They absolutely loved him. But they would do anything for him too, and they worked incredibly hard. And I thought, "Why aren't all the executives like that?" Luke: Right. Interesting. Joe: Because wouldn't it be great if they were? Luke: Yeah. It would be. Yeah. Joe: And they're not. They're just not. And he was just such a great guy. Joe: And then I worked for an entrepreneur, and he said, "I need you to go do things that I can't do in the role that I'm in, but I have your back." And I thought, "Wow. He trusts me. What a great thing. I'll go do anything now that I know that." I had another mentor, he taught me about people. He said, "It's all about the people, Joe." And he communicated and he... I've told this story before, but when you're interviewed, he'd say, "Cross your legs," which I'm doing right now. And I did. And I had short socks, and you could see skin. The next day... You'll never have this in your career, interoffice envelope. You ever heard of that? Luke: No, I haven't. No. Joe: So it's an envelope that you write someone's name on and then you put it in the mailbox, and it gets delivered. Luke: Okay. Yeah. Joe: And there's a little red string on the back that you put on this little circle thing that's a clasp. Luke: Got it. Joe: So and the next day I get an interoffice envelope from the president. I'm like, "Oh my gosh. Did I do something wrong?" And I open it up and it's... I'll show you right now, long socks. So I've always worn long socks. Joe: So the little things matter. Shine your shoes. Clean your car. It's all the little stuff. Luke: It's all attention to detail, stuff like that. Joe: Exactly. Always. And that was very, very important to me in my development as a career. Joe: But I will say, going back to my first job, I was an ice cream maker in Ogunquit, Maine at the Viking. It's not there anymore. Mrs. Everson was the owner, and to be a cashier was like a big thing because you're holding the money at the company, right? And to get a key to get into the business when the family wasn't there was also a big thing. I got both of those. Luke: Wow. Joe: I got to be a cashier and my sister was a cashier too, but I got to be a cashier, and they gave me the key to make the ice cream. But the thing that I remember absolutely the most was when you give people back change, this is how you do it. So the George Washington, Lincoln, Hamilton, the face is always in the same direction. And how many times... You probably... I don't even know if you use money, but... cash. Luke: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joe: You may just use a card. Luke: Yeah. Joe: Today, nobody... They just hand the money to you. It's unbelievable. It drives me absolutely crazy. Luke: I never thought about that. Joe: But it's the attention to detail and respecting that it's my money actually. I just bought something from you. It's actually my money. So give it back to me with respect. That's what she taught me. So those are the things... Joe: I wish I had a mentor when I was your age about business that allowed me to kind of coagulate all these experiences because I think I would have been... I think I would have done something on my own earlier, but I also got married when I was 23, so we began a life shortly thereafter together, and so you get in that groove, that swim lane, and it wasn't until about three years ago that I decided to start my own business. Luke: And it's those very small but important attentions to detail that really build your character and really show you how a business should operate and how you should operate in life. But however, you got married at 23, and then you were in jobs. It's definitely a difficult and very courageous decision to step out of that and then go and start your own business. And I was wondering if you could speak a little bit to about the courage that entrepreneurs have to have if they want to succeed? Joe: My courage at this stage is probably different than the courage at your stage possibly. I've got a large network. I've been fortunate in some circumstances. I do fund my own business, so I'm not... I don't have any investors or anything. I don't have any partners per se. Joe: The courage for me was the change. It was less the financial implication, but it was more... But I will say right now, it's a financial implication because what I've learned, I want to address... because I have a couple other things that will become... I'll hire employees to do these other things. So now I have to make a substantial investment to make those happen. So that's going to require some courage on my side to go with it, right? Joe: But I would say that the thing that was the catalyst... This was actually an absolute true story. I was at church on a Sunday, and I was in a situation with a business that I was CEO of. It was a difficult situation, and the priest is fantastic at our church, and... in his homily he told a story about when he was in... being prepared to become a priest. He said that he was walking. He was distraught about something. He was walking in the hills and he found himself in a place where he really wasn't paying attention and suddenly, he can't go back because the crevice was so large. And he doesn't really even know exactly how he got there. And the only thing he could do was go forward. And had he been totally cognizant of the situation, he never would have gotten himself into that particular spot. Joe: So at that moment in church, I decided, I am going to go do this. That was when I decided to do this. Luke: Wow. Joe: And it was because of my faith and it was because- Luke: Your faith. Yeah. Joe: ... of that story, and I said, "This is my moment. I have stepped across. I can't go back so I'm going forward." And I actually went and resigned the next day. Luke: Wow. Joe: Now I had to talk to my wife about it, of course. And that was the courageous part, because it was hard. We were going to eat, we had a house, and all that stuff. It's not like that. But it was a big difference, and our lives changed as a result of that. Joe: And so, I went, and I actually went to Gethsemani in where Thomas Merton was as a monk, and I spent three days there in silence, which is hard to believe. I didn't talk for three days. I went to mass six or seven times a day, and I read a lot of books and I went walking in the woods. And here's what I got from that experience is silence is the loudest experience you'll ever have. And just by being alone in the woods, I heard things that I hadn't heard. And that was tragic to me because I had been working and traveling, and I missed out on so much. And I realized that I had missed a spontaneity in life by traveling and doing all that I had done and my career. I never missed a birthday, I never missed an anniversary, I never missed any of the planned things, but I missed all the things when your son or daughter comes home and someone's mean to them at school, or something happened that was great. I wasn't there. I wasn't there. And I made a vow that if I was able to make this change that I would be more aware of that. Joe: Now I'm not perfect, but I work every day to try and be more in the spontaneity of life. And that's a lesson is to... sometimes you have to step out of what you have to see that there's so much more. Like I wouldn't be doing this today probably if I was in the other situation. My schedule would be too busy. Well, I made this a priority because I love Holy Cross and I want to give back, and if one person walks away from this conversation feeling better about themselves, or they see there's something that they can do now that they might have not really thought possible, then Luke, you and I just spent a good 20, 30 minutes together. And that's the way I would say I feel now. Luke: It's powerful, yeah. Joe: Yeah, it's big. For me it works. Luke: That's amazing about the faith and church. That's... yeah. That's unbelievable. Joe: He's fantastic. Actually the other priest, we have... There's only one Jesuit in Tennessee and he graduated with Father Bruce. He went to Holy Cross, Class of '81. Yeah. So he's great too. Yeah, he's awesome. It wasn't his story though. Luke: Just going back to Worcester, that's a lot to digest. But some more lighthearted stuff now. Grew up in Worcester. Went to school in Worcester. I got to know, best spot, restaurant. What do you think? Joe: Wow. That's a great question. Luke: There's a lot of good ones. Joe: My favorite place is no longer there, which was the Millbrook Diner, which you probably have never heard of. So that's a good question. What's the favorite... There's... I would say where I usually go is either Miss Woo's or The Boy. And then I used to go to the... What's the diner across the street? Part... from the Boulevard. That's where we used to go, but I don't think that- Luke: I know- Joe: You know what I'm talking about? Luke: Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Joe: But I would- Luke: I can't think of the name. Joe: That's a good... I don't know. That's a... I don't know. There's it's many new places here. What the heck? Luke: Yeah, there are. Joe: So, I will tell you this. Kelley Square today, I did go through Kelley Square, which is when I went to St. John's in Shrewsbury, I had a brother, Brother William taught us. He said he used to close his eyes and just drive through. Continues to be the case. The worst place, although with the new baseball stadium, I suppose it's going to be addressed. Very happy that the Sox are coming to Worcester. We're happy about that, yup. Joe: I'm a diner guy, to be honest with you, so I love all the diners. That would be the way I grew up. Luke: Yeah, diners are great. Yeah. Luke: Another kind of just lighthearted question. But as a business executive, obviously you got to be very in-tune with what's going on in society. Are there any new type of trends in social media or in the news that have really caught your eye? Joe: Yeah. So without getting too political, I will say that I have a problem with current leadership. It does matter how you do what you do. It's not just the outcome. So the mechanism, the value system, and how you actually approach leadership matters a lot to me. So, I'm going to add something here that is a little bit of a twist on your question, but I think it'll kind of bring- Luke: Sure. Joe: ... a few things together. Joe: So when I was running a bigger company, I had a platform and I had a responsibility as the CEO of the company, I felt, to talk about the question that you just asked me about. If we're having a bad economic period, 2008 I was CEO of a company, economic crash, I got in front of everybody and said, "Okay, we got problems. Here's what's going to have to happen. We're going to have to freeze... We might have to have some layoffs," but I was honest and transparent with everybody. Very, very difficult. Joe: So macroeconomic trends, I think, if I were running a bigger company, this issue with the virus from China- Luke: Coronavirus. Joe: ... everybody's concerned about that. They should be. Whether it'll be bigger than people think it is at the moment, I don't know. I'm not an expert in that area, but I do think we need to be aware of it. So I think we need to convey these things. Joe: But what's most troubling to me is that we can't seem to get to a common agenda. We can't figure that out. And if the country were a business, we'd go out of business. And so, I believe that some of the business principles can be brought to that conversation. So I started a thing called The Bridge. And The Bridge is bringing people from different perspectives together. And I've done it in Ohio. I've had public forum in Ohio with groups of people, and now I'm doing it in Nashville on the 18th of this month. Joe: And people that are helping me facilitate this are four people. Well, there's three that's going to do this one. There's Troy Smith. He's an African American leader in the city. Great guy. He did some rap stuff when he was a kid. He grew up in the hood as he told me. We couldn't in some ways be any more different, but we're actually found a common platform. Jenn Miller is an inclusion diversity expert. She does this for businesses. She too is African American. Has got seven kids. Absolutely fantastic person. And then Chloe Adams. Chloe Adams is, she's 25. She went to Auburn University as a marketing communications person. And I got to know her because my office is there and she's just a direct communicator and appeals to her generation. Joe: So we're having a meeting where we're bringing people together, about two groups of 40, and we're going to have a conversation about the common platform. And the four of us are going to tell a little story of why this is so important to us, and I want to show people that it's possible to not solve it, but to agree that we can address things together. That we're going to have this conversation. And so we're addressing it through the lens of men and women, black and white, or Asian, what... Indian. Luke: Sure. Joe: Different races, ages, and orientation. Bring people... It doesn't matter. It's the you, YOU. We're trying to bring as much diversity- Joe: ... into that conversation. And then show... These will be people that don't know each other, and they'll be able to sit in a room and have a conversation. And just by virtue of bringing this up, it's amazing how many people want to participate in a conversation. Joe: Now not sure where it's going to go and I don't really care at the moment where it goes, but I think it can be a bit of a movement, and I'm really excited about where we can take it. Joe: So that's probably a part of where my energy is now being focused because I think without figuring this out, it's just not helpful. So that's a big part for me. Luke: It's super important to understand everybody and everyone's background, and like you were saying, that whole empathy and understanding where people are coming from, their beliefs and stuff like that- Joe: Right. Luke: ... instead of shying away from that, embracing everybody and figuring out... or not even figuring out problems in society or whatever, in a company, but just addressing those issues and talking about it and being united, that's huge in my opinion. Yeah. Joe: Think about this conversation. We don't know each other that well, right? Luke: Right. Joe: But we were educated by the same institution, similar principles, many decades apart. But the expectation of us is the same. We're to take this platform and bring it into the world, not pass judgment on people, but bring people together. And then evolve as we learn from others and make an impact that's different tomorrow than it is today because we've evolved. We've learned. That's the part. But you can't dig in too early. And as long as you're willing to listen and learn and talk, we can make a difference. And I will not be dissuaded from that. I will not. And there are people that get angry about these things and they want to dig in on one issue or they disagree, but that's part of this. I'm not right, but I can facilitate a conversation. And I think that's a skillset that I would really recommend continue to let evolve for yourself is be able to facilitate and bring people into the conversation because the most quiet person in the room is maybe the one that's most valuable. Just because people process, you know? Luke: And that's something that I was taught growing up as well. My dad, I always remember him talking to me about listening to everybody in the room. That's what he would say. "Listen to everybody in the room. Everybody can offer something unique and bring something to the table. And comprehend that, understand that, and then use that to move forward." Joe: Right. Luke: And yeah, that's big. Joe: Because if you think about it metaphorically, it's like making a cake or some... I don't know, some meal or whatever. If you look at the people as being the ingredients, you don't put equal amounts of everything. But if every person is an ingredient, you just take the right amounts, oh my gosh, it's like the best cake ever, right? Luke: Yup. Joe: And that's, I think, what I always think about when I'm in a room is, we're trying to bake something. We're try to make something together. And I don't know if I heard someone say this or I made this up myself, but every time we're together, just today, this will never happen again. Luke: True. Joe: Once in history will you and I be sitting in this room at this time of the day under this circumstance. So if we don't walk away... if we can walk away with one thing from that and then tell someone else and do something different, what a great experience. And if you have more people in the room, wow. So let's take full advantage of that. Because we are blessed to be able to do these things. Luke: Completely agree. Yeah. And we'll just wrap it up here briefly. Joe: Sure. Luke: But one last thing about Holy Cross. What was your favorite class? Were there any... I know you're a chemistry major, but were there any other... obviously the liberal arts education, learning more about just the specific major you're in, were there any big classes that jumped out at you and really help you even today? Joe: I think the one that I talk about often is I took a course on, I don't know if it was about atheism, but it was taught by an atheist. And I thought that was really interesting because, of course, being void of faith given how I grew up, I said the rosary every day and went to mass and all that stuff. But I just thought it was really interesting to have someone with such conviction about a totally opposing view, but also being open to the others and being able to teach us about that. And that to me gave great confirmation of what the Jesuit, what I took away from one of the Jesuit pillars was, "We will teach you from those that have depth of understanding and belief as opposed to someone that has a surface level understanding and just expose you to the topic." And I thought that was fantastic. Joe: Now he didn't convert me to atheism obviously, but it really in some ways confirmed my faith. But I would not have thought about that in a way that I have. And I also think that he moved my lack of judgment, how I don't judge people, forward because I might have had a very negative reaction to an atheist. But in that course, I learned that he too is good person. He just has a different viewpoint. And I thought that was fantastic. Joe: I played soccer at Holy Cross so I cannot leave this conversation without saying that the guys that I played soccer with, those stories continue, and we just had a blast. And being a student athlete was fantastic. We had so much fun. We had so much fun. Luke: All right. Joe: Luke, thank you. Luke: Yeah, thank you. Joe: This was great. Luke: Appreciate it. Joe: Awesome. Luke: Definitely. Joe: So much fun. Good luck to you. Luke: Thank you. You as well. Maura: That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be men and women for and with others. A special thanks to today's guest and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. Maura: If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of St. Ignatius of Loyola, "Now go forth and set the world on fire." --- Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

In this episode, Christian Haynes '20 interviews Che Anderson '11 about his work supporting public art, and how his Holy Cross experience inspired him to make his mark on the City of Worcester. Recorded November 20, 2019 --- Transcript Ché: If at 23, 24, 25 you find something that's really keeping you up at night, and that's making you wake up early in the morning, go pursue that. There's no right or wrong way to do life, we're all just figuring it out. Maura: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, from the class of 2007, director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. Maura: In this episode we hear from Ché Anderson from the class of 2011. A New York native, Ché now claims Worcester as home. After making his mark on campus as a co-founder of the Brother to Brother Committee, Ché continues to make a positive impact on the Worcester community as an alumnus. Currently working as deputy cultural development officer for the City of Worcester, Ché was one of the organizers of the POW! WOW! Worcester Mural Festival. First debuting in 2016, POW! WOW! Worcester is an annual week-long festival that has already curated over 130 pieces of public art. For this great work, Ché was named to Worcester Business Journal's 40 Under 40 list in 2018. Maura: Christian Haynes, from the class of 2020, speaks with Ché about how this work came to be. Starting with his childhood in New York City, they speak about the many people and moments that have shaped Ché as a professional and as a leader. Filled with inspiring takeaways, their conversation showcases the power of putting the Holy Cross mission into action in the community. Christian: I'm here with my man, Ché Anderson. Ché: Hello there. Christian: So let's go ahead, it's your boy Christian, you already know what it is. So I'm talking about... I got to bring myself into this. Ché: I hear you, I hear you. Christian: First question, is it Ché or Shae? I know you have people that have known you for about 10, 20 years that still call you Shae. Ché: Yes, they do, my name is Ché Anderson, hard Ch with the accent over the E. I was named after Ernesto Ché Guevara, and oddly I got that name because my grandmother, rest her soul, was a Black Panther and she was a Black Panther from Harlem. And she raised my father strictly in that environment, and so having his first born son, he wanted to give me a name that, from the way I hear it, was powerful but that said, I would cause a little bit of trouble. And initially he wanted to name me Huey after Huey Newton. Ché: And my mother was just like, "No, I don't want that name". So they landed on Ché, because it was unique, and because they both thought that he was a really interesting and powerful figure. And so you could imagine growing up, now 30 years and people going, "Well either you have a lot to live up to", or, "Do you know what he was about or what he did?". And it's like, "yes", I've read every biography and autobiography I can of that person. Christian: That's wow. Did you feel that type of environment, that Black Panther type in your environment growing up, in your household growing up? Ché: I think that... It's funny, my mom was a correction officer, and worked on Rikers Island in New York. Which, for those that don't know, it's an interesting facility, to say the least. Ché: And I think that my mother always, drove home how important it was to be aware of myself and all my situations. Not only what it meant to walk a street, but what it means to walk the street as a black male, and how that can be perceived by different people. And so some of that was in the ideologies and philosophies of those in the Black Panther party, some of those are just growing up as a black person in New York City, and some of that is from my grandmother coming from South Carolina. So I think that, when you have family, all that legacy comes with you in the way that you're raised or brought up, or the different lessons you're taught. Christian: That's a lot. Ché: It is, it's heavy. Christian: It is heavy. I think that's the right word to use. Do you ever ask your mother why correctional officer was like... Ché: Yeah, apparently my mom was trying to figure it out, I think like most people are in life, in their early twenties and I think she knew that there were some really interesting opportunities and good pertinent opportunities in civil service. And for her, she had actually a friend who was taking the exam to be an officer, and so she said, "You know what, good pension, good paying job if I have a family", and she was recently married, "This could be a great fallback for the family". And then lo and behold, nine months into her tenure, that's when she found out she was pregnant with me. And she did it for 22 years, and went again from Rikers, which is one of the most notorious prisons in our country to working at Manhattan Courts, which is a little more relaxed. Ché: But my mom is the toughest person I know. She's a soldier, she's a warrior, but also somehow like the most loving person ever know. Christian: How close were you and your grandmother, from your mother’s side? Ché: Very, My dad actually wasn't really around much growing up. So my mom's side is who I really knew well. And so my grandmother was the one that kind of took care of me while mom was at work, and so she got to hear a lot of my first words, and first things like that. And my grandmother, it's odd, for work, she would actually clean houses, and so I spent a lot of my Saturday and Sunday mornings going with her to affluent people's houses and sitting on couches watching cartoons. Ché: And so it was an interesting dichotomy, growing up in the Amsterdam Projects where I grew up, which public housing, and then going to these affluent Central Park West houses and seeing what it's like to have a doorman, what it's like to have people who are throwing words like sommelier around, and not having any idea what that meant. And having fancy dogs, and having big flat screen TVs before we had that, when we still had the TV with the knob on it. Which was... but again, all that frames kind of who you are as you go up, right? So because of that I think I always felt comfortable everywhere. Because I was able to experience that at an early age, and around all kinds of people. Because I was able to see all sorts of people from, again, the penurious that were struggling, trying to figure it out, to the princely, that were running around throwing thousands of dollars at their kids, or their nieces and nephews. Christian: That's pretty tough, I thought we had a similar background. My mom was cleaning... she was a home attendant, taking care of the elderly. Coming from the Projects, even going to these houses in Bushwick at the time. They weren't the best houses, but they were still houses. And I guess you could say it's similar, from coming from the Projects not really having nothing, to seeing these fish tanks, these bigger TVs, these rooms that, more than one bedroom, more than two bedrooms. These people have a lot more than me, it's not a lot, but it's a lot more than me. And just spending time with my mother like that, I guess that made me more comfortable being in different spaces, like you say. Christian: But I remember the first time I learned about you, hear about you, learn about you, because in class I was into stats, psych stats, and I was on the website, Holy Cross website in a see 40 under 40. So what stood out to me was that title, and it was a black man. So I got to figure out what this is, and I realized he was a Holy Cross alum. I was like, the first person I had- Marcellis. I know you know this man. Ché: Big shout to Marcellis Perkins too. Christian: Of course, he got some questions for you too. I was like, "Who is this man?", He was like, "Yeah, Ché Anderson, yada yada, alumni 2011". And we actually going to meet up pretty soon, I'll come through if you want, and then that was the first time I met up with you at Crossroads. I'm like, "Yeah, he seemed like a cool dude, talk fast". Ché: I do talk fast, sorry about that. Christian: No, you're good, yeah yeah yeah yeah... no but you talk real fast. I was like, "Yeah, he seem like a cool dude", I remember the first time you mentioned... That was the first time you mentioned to me that you had connects with the Pawtucket Red Sox, and then there was a big thing at the time that they were coming from... Ché: From Pawtucket to Worcester. Christian: Yeah to Worcester, I think they made it here right? Ché: Yeah, they are opening day is April, 2021. Christian: Yeah so, baseball was a big thing for me, still is. So I was like, "Yeah, I got to say connect to this man right here". Christian: But I know you got a lot of work with art and street art, so just going back to your childhood or teenage years, whatever, do you remember your first time experiencing that or seeing it and admiring it. Whether it was street art, art, any type of art form? Ché: Yeah, so my mom, when she did have days off, we had to go somewhere, every time. I think that part of her raising me was that she wanted me to experience everything that she couldn't. And that literally meant everything. Some Saturdays we would just go for a walk and we'd walk Central Park and walk down Fifth Avenue and just window shop, but it was cool to just see all the different things people were getting, and FAO Schwarz, which was down on 59th and then Fifth Avenue, the toy store from Big with the big piano and we'd go in there, and I'd inevitably convinced her to get me like a Ninja Turtle or something. But I had to see it, it was this big experience and we'd go to the American Museum of Natural History, or we go to the Guggenheim. And often I was way too young to really comprehend it, but my mom tried to make sure I saw everything. And I think that that... Those are some of my earliest memories experiencing art. And I remember walking through parts of Harlem, or parts of Brooklyn, or lower Manhattan, and you see graffiti and places but you're kind of fed this narrative that that's bad, that's desolate areas, you don't want that.   And oddly, it probably wasn't until seven or so years ago that I had this experience, and it's actually what led me on this path that I thought was really interesting. I was in Worcester, Post grad, living in a city I was sort of familiar with, but I didn't get off the Hill as much as I probably should have while I was a student. And the artist Banksy, from London, one of the most prominent public artists living today in modern history was doing a residency in New York City.   And my friends were running around taking pictures and posting them on Instagram, and I needed a new cool profile pic so I ran down to New York and I was blown away by how many people were traveling to New York City to catch a glimpse of this artwork. I came from Massachusetts, people were coming from Connecticut, and from Jersey, and growing up in New York, and you get this, quite often you stayed in your borough.   If you didn't have to travel to see family or a close friend that lives somewhere else. If you were from Manhattan, you stayed in Manhattan. If you were from Harlem, which is part of Manhattan, but you stayed in Harlem and that was it. And so people were coming from Staten Island taking the ferry to look at this artwork and I said, "This is awesome, where else is this happening?"   And eventually I started researching, and I learned about Wynwood, and more about what's happening in Bushwick, Brooklyn, and Philadelphia has this mural arts program that's been changing the city since the 1970's and I was like, "Hey, Worcester could do this, we have the wall space for sure, but we have a creative community, we've always kind of been an alternative community, let's see where it goes". And that was kind of it from there, it took off.   But it's one of those things where it's... I tell people, "You grew up in New York City and you don't really appreciate growing up in New York City until you leave New York City".   You know what I mean? You don't realize how many things you have at your fingertips, and how alive the city is, and how active it is, until you're at a city that closes down at midnight and you're just like, "What's going on?" Christian: I'd say 10 o'clock. Ché: Or until you're at a place and you're like, "Aw man, I can't sleep and I'm starving", but there's no bodega. Or you're like, "Aw man, I really want a Uber or taxi", and it's like, "No, there are none in the area right now, it's too late". And so it's not lost on me that what really made me appreciate being a New Yorker was not living in New York, and having to sort of figure out where to find the pockets that made me feel like I was home. Christian: I would've thought that you done a lot of research about graffiti, especially in the 80's in New York. Ché: Oh yeah, of course, at this point I have, but growing up, no. And I tell people this all the time, I think that people see 40 under 40, I got this award for this public art project that I'm always taking pictures with murals and I'm doing talks, and stuff about murals... That's all in the last 10 years. I didn't study that, I'm not classically trained in any of that. There are people that'll bring up famous artists to me, from different movements, and I'm just like, "Nope, no idea what you're talking about". But it goes to a point of, people have their belief of a right way to do something, and that you have to be the biggest scholar and that. You don't, like you can just be passionate about something, you could really like something and find your niche in that world.   And that's what it is for me. I appreciate the culture, I respect it, I've learned my history on it. So I'm not just someone that's a culture vulture that came in and was like, "I'm going to do this thing". No, I've sat with graffiti writers, I've had to hold some graffiti writers names close to the vest because no one needs to know that. But the fact of the matter is that as a person who appreciates neo-contemporary art, which is just the really fancy way of saying street art or graffiti, I was able to come humbly to a table and have a seat at it now, and have just open conversation.   And so this is a person who... I want it to be a lawyer, I was a poli- sci major, I interned with the Manhattan DA for seven years, that was it for me. And so to go from that, to this sort of hobby that's become a big part of my now job and everything else, I think is a testament to the fact that if at 23, 24, 25 you find something that's really keeping you up at night, and that's making you wake up early in the morning, go pursue that. There's no right or wrong way to do life, we're all just figuring it out. Christian: Yeah. You mentioned neo... What is it? Ché: Oh, neo-contemporary art. It's a recently used, made up term, to allow people to contextualize what street art is. Street art has this sort of trivial, kind of fun sound to it, but if I talk to you about Renaissance art, you're like, "Oh wow, that's Renaissance art". Or if I mention modern art you're, "Oh my God, that's modern".   So people started calling street art neo-contemporary, new-age contemporary art, because you're now having people that have taken artwork and put it outside to make it public, and now they're taking that same aesthetic and bring it back inside some museums, and galleries, and spaces like that. So it's just a newly coined term to make it sound more official. Christian: Sounds like... So I'm going to dance class right now, and it sounds like, what they deal with B-boy and B-girl, and turn it into break dance, it's a commercialize it. Do you think it's the same? Ché: It's similar, I think that there are... the sad reality of it is that there are certain cultural norms that different people experience, and to make the masses feel comfortable with it, it becomes a different thing.   It's like when you talk about hip hop versus rap, there's none of this. But for some people, it's like, "Well, hip hop is a bit more nuanced, and safe, and rap is grungy and dirty and raw", and I tell people when it comes to street art and graffiti and such, I don't see a difference.   I think that they are synonyms, it's semantics. Both are generally painted with spray paint, outdoor. The difference is that one tends to be formalized and legal, and one's illegal. But if I paint a beautiful portrait of Dr. King on a wall, but I do it illegally, but it's gorgeous. It's perfect rendering, is that graffiti or is that street art? If I pay you $2,000 to paint your name on my wall, is that graffiti or street...   We get too deep into the weeds of it. Sometimes you got to just appreciate it. Again, I've seen some of the most beautiful art I've seen, bar none, gallery, museums included, online included. I've seen some gorgeous things people do with letters. And you think about typography in general, and how lettering, and hand lettering, and hand scripting, and hand styling has grown right from the clothes you wear, and the person who chose that font, to the way you type. There's a certain nuance to that.   And I've seen some of the best done publicly, by just graffiti writers. But that's just me. Christian: I think you did mention this, but do you make art yourself? Any type of art? Singing doesn't count cause you say you can't sing. Ché: Ow man, I can sing, just not well is what I'm saying. I don't do visual art.   But here's a fun fact that most people don't know about me. I write poetry. I have since I was younger. I don't perform it, I don't really share it, but I do. I've always done that, it's been what I turned to when I'm really stressed out or something, I write down a poem about something. And it's one of the main reasons why when I was on campus, and we had this organization called the Brother to Brother committee, we did this poem Black Man Rising, and we did it. A big part of doing that was that... it was like my outlet to actually perform some semblance of poetry. So no, I don't draw or anything. Christian: But you mentioned the Brother to Brother committee. Ché: Yeah. Christian: Turn into the Male Involvement Coalition, which I am the co-chair of. And we just performed Black Man Rising in The Griot. Did you hear about that? Ché: I did not hear about this particular, no I didn't. Christian: I do have a video I'll show you after. Ché: I need that, I need to see it. Christian: And we did perform it in my sophomore year at BSU fashion show at Mechanics Hall. Ché: Do you kick it off? Christian: Yeah. Ché: Are you the, "Look at yourself again. Alright... alright... You're not a Black Man Falling, You're a Black Man Rising, by James H. Chapman. Christian: We switched it up, it was dedicated to Rob Jones. Ché: Okay. All right, I hear you. Christian: It was a cool experience, and I just found out that you were the founding members of Brother to Brother committee. So talk to me about that and how it was back then. Ché: So when I was a sophomore, there was a conference members of the camps were invited to, and it was called the CHAS conference, the coalition for higher achievement and success... consortium for higher achievement success. And they had one that was specific to black and brown males. And so a group of us attended it, and were so uplifted at Skidmore by the people we're hearing from.   I believe at Skidmore, by the people we were hearing from and hearing new initiatives at other colleges and campuses, when we came back to campus, we ended up just meeting a bunch of times and discussing some of the issues that were affecting people in our communities. As we were talking about doing things inevitably, we hit a point where we started doing events but we weren't a recognized student organization. We were just a bunch of students doing these things that having talks, having dialogues, facilitating conversations and we were just dynamic. You had students that wanted to be architects, that wanted to be lawyers or wanted to be doctors that were athletes, that were thespians. So we realized we kind of had something and said, "Okay, we could formalize this in RSO." There was Jeff Harris, who was class of 2012 went to high school with me and there were these two things we did in high school.   One was a daily affirmation and the other one was Black Men Rising that Jeff performed. So he introduced that to the campus and that became our calling card for this group. Then Antonio Willis-Berry, he was 2013, there was this Shawn whose last name is escaping me, but he was class of 2013, Jose Paz, who was class of 2012. We just had this group. Then there was a gentleman named Tyrone Billingsly who was kind of the elder statesman of our group along with Eric Collazo. The two of them didn't want a role officially. They were happy being like ex-official members but just guiding us because they'd been here longer. So when we finally got recognized, I was a senior advisor and Jeff was one of the co-chairs and we sort of just became this network of men on this campus that just wanted to talk about issues that impacted or afflicted us or just talk about uplifting things that were happening in the community, talk about music, eat some good food.   It really was his brotherhood that got developed. It's funny because initially, the way I became the Brother To Brother Committee is it started out as a Black and Brown Coalition, which sounded militant for some people, which we were cool with. But we said, "You know what? If indeed, we want to open this up, there's an opportunity," and we realized, You know what? There were folks on campus who weren't Black or Brown that were extreme allies, that were on the front lines for all these conversations and so we shouldn't exclude them like that. They're our brothers in arms. To be honest, there were women on campus who were willing to pick up arms, so to speak, and stand on those front lines and protest and argue with us in the same way. So there was this sort of overarching brotherhood, sisterhood, familial aspect of it.   But it all started with this group of brothers. So that was kind of that. What was crazy is, in the very first year as a recognized student organization, we have this picture that I love of ... there were five of us and we held seven awards from the SGA award ceremony, three for the organization and four for individual members of the organization. I was like, "This has to be a record for a first-year organization." It felt great to sort of have to prove why we belonged and then show like with our work that we were here just to make the campus a community, like a true community, which is wild.   Honestly, I remember the first time you told me about ... first of all I heard about the Men Involvement, the MIC. I was just like, "That sounds familiar. What happened to the BBC in it?" I think Rob Jones was just like, "Oh yeah. It kind of became this other group." I remember meeting you and Marcellis and some other brothers and I was like, "I couldn't have hoped for anything better." Part of it, it makes you sad. You're like, "Wow, they have some of the same conversations we had almost a decade ago." You wonder if that's sort of just the nature of being on a campus, having new students and you're always onboarding new people. But to see that there were people here who were dedicated and you know what I mean? It makes me happy to like sit across from you and be like, "Oh man, this is me 10 years ago." Christian: I appreciate that. I really do. I think that's the reason why we ended up calling it MIC because they were people who didn't identify as being Black or Brown, but who had the same struggles that we have as males and that's why we're open to any male. Our meetings are open to anybody. There are a lot of people who want to help us, who feel like even if they don't agree with some of the things that we believe in, they want us to know that. I think that results into a great dialogue, great conversations and us doing things on campus to made the campus better, so yeah. Ché: So Black Man Rising was super controversial the first time we did it. Christian: Why? Ché: Because effectively, you had this group of ... and our first group that did Black Men Rising were Jeff Harris, 2012, who played basketball, Freddie Santana, who's Puerto Rican, from New York, my year, 2011. Mudiaga Ohimor, who my year as well. Mud was 250, 6' 8". He was a big dude. Jonathan St. Firmin who was another New York guy who we know. Jonathan is probably like 5' 9" and if he's taller than 5' 9" and he's listening, I'm sorry Jonathan, but about 5' 9" to me, probably like 150, like a smaller dude and then myself. So you had this interesting range of gentlemen. Some were quieter, some were bigger, into parties. Some were athletes, some weren't, but you had this sort of force of effectively militant looking men talking about the powers of a Black man on a predominantly White campus.   So people were like, "You know what? This may not be the best thing for us, where we come off as too aggressive." We were just like, "Us? Aggressive? We're going to do it anyway. We're going to do it anyway." So we did. There were people inside our group, there were people inside the administration who were kind of like, "You know, this could not go the right way." We said, "There's something to speaking your truth that's important. This is what we experience and maybe we have a dialogue around that afterwards." But we did it and we got a standing ovation and organizations around Worcester asked us to come off campus and perform it, because it was something that was unique at the time for this group that you may not always see together kind of speaking truth to power, if you will. So yeah man, it was something. Christian: I feel that, no, I definitely feel that. I remember first being introduced to it ... My first year as the MIC freshman and sophomore year it was, I'll say, very slow. Not a lot of people attended. But like myself personally, I didn't feel as if it was that important. I wasn't into this, who I am now, into this like Black man power, being a Black man, especially on this campus. I wasn't really into that. I was just trying to go through school, get my degree, all that stuff, whatever. But then I really talked to Marcellis and other people, they introduced me to that. Like the importance of being a Black man. Christian: I know even coming from New York, the only thing I had to worry about was the police, because there wasn't a lot of White people that I really had to worry about. I came from a really mixed culture, like everybody from every ... It's New York. You know what I'm saying? You see everybody. But just being on campus was a different vibe and I didn't get that notion until sophomore year. Towards the end of sophomore year, that's when I would ... actually, towards the end of sophomore year, second semester after we did Black Man Rising I saw the power that we had. I saw the audience that we had, the support that we had. It opened my eyes and it was just like, "Damn. We do got power." Ché: You do. Christian: When you talk about it being controversial now, it will make me do it even more. I think freshman year and sophomore year, beginning of sophomore year I was like, "Hey, it was controversial. Let me not ... " Ché: It takes time to, I think, part of the collegiate experience, particularly if you're a student of color or someone whose English wasn't their first language or something to that effect there's the natural onboarding, right? You're 18, 17, 19 years old trying to figure out what you're going to do for the rest of your life. Trying to make it to 8:30 classes when everyone knows they suck. Christian: Mine was actually pretty good. Ché: Well lucky you, I guess, but you have that experience and then it's how do you socialize? How do you meet people? How do you make friends? How do you figure out who you are? Who are you, right? Whose are you? How do you look? How do you dress? What do you comfortable in? There was a guy when I was at Holy Cross named Tom, everyone called him Pajama Pants Tom. Pajama Pants Tom literally wore pajama pants to everything. He worked at Kimball. He wore them to class. Pajama Pants Tom had a 4.0 and took six classes every semester from the time he was a first-year student. He audited classes because he just wanted to learn more. I think he got a Fulbright, went abroad, came back with long hair. Looked just like Jesus. It was amazing. Pajamas Pants Tom was one of the smartest people I ever met.   But if you looked at him and saw this kid walking into class in the winter in pajama pants and flip flops, you're like, "What's wrong with this person?" but he was comfortable with himself early on and so that didn't matter. So I think that some get there earlier but there's that dynamic of just like, "I'm just trying to get these A's and go on." But also real quick, I just have to shout out Shawn Johnson because I realized his last name was Johnson, as well as Matt Harper and Darien and Jose Paz and Jeremiah Gonzalez.   Darien Henry was actually our freshmen apprentice, our first year student who was part of the group. The reason why I had to shout them out the same way that Eric and Tyrone was, because when I say it was a brotherhood, like I meant that, right? Like Lance Williams, like there are people who I don't see all the time, but if ever something happened, if every one of them had a big thing, Tony Zelayandia, that's family. It really is. So from the time that we were 20, 21, 19 years old to now, I'm 30 it is intriguing to me to think I'm on campus and we started this thing here and now people are going to be class 2023 they're on campus and people are still joining this thing. Man, that's something. Christian: Yeah, we definitely got it. We got freshmen really into it. It's just the legacy that you have and you see it grow and grow and it's just amazing. I'm glad to be a part of that legacy. MIC... Brother to Brother... It's a brotherhood that's kind of... so I notice... so I read that your mother played a big part in you going to Holy Cross, right? Ché: Yeah. Man. Christian: I feel like the question is asked a lot, what made you go to Holy Cross? What made you stay at Holy Cross? Ché: That's a good question. When I was deciding where I wanted to go, being the first in my, I think, semi-extended family to go to college, my mom, who was like, "I have to do everything right with her firstborn," hit a point where she said, "You know. You need to go to Harvard." I was just like, "You're right. I should go to Harvard." So we looked at schools, mainly looked at Ivy league schools, but I was going to a Jesuit high school in Harlem, New York. Big shout out to Rice High School. Christian: Wait, what's the name of it? Ché: Rice High School. Christian: Right. I feel like I know people from there but it's not there anymore. Ché: Kemba Walker- Christian: Right. Okay. He's not there anymore. Ché: ... plays for the Boston Celtics went to Rice High School. But no, my high school is not there anymore, which is sad. It's sad. The bodega across street's still there. Christian: It's still there. Ché: Rice not there. But I was looking at a lot of Ivy league schools. My mom, wanted me to look at Morehouse because she thought there was something special about being, again, around other men who look like me and maybe had similar struggles or similar situations. Actually, a brother who was at Rice High School said, "You know what I think what would be a great institution for him? College of the Holy Cross." My mom looked into it, saw similarities to my high school. Thankfully, it wasn't an all boys school, all men's college. I did that for four years in high school, but she said, "I think this would be a great space for you. It's not too big. Great academics." At that time I felt that I was an athlete, so she was like, "Maybe you can do something around sports." I did not. I did not while I was here. Christian: We're going to talk about that too. Ché: No. But after talking about it, it actually was my second choice. After all the looking at colleges, I thought I wanted to go to Columbia. For me, I was like, "That's where I'm going, it's 20 blocks from where I grew up. One of my best friends in the world was going there." It was perfect. My mom said, "You need to leave New York." It actually is one of the best decisions she's ever sort of made for me. At the time I was angry, but her thing was so much of my family is in New York and stayed in New York and I needed to see something else. I had to see another part of the world. Oddly enough, it was only four hours away, but I said, "Okay. We'll see Holy Cross. Then if I don't like it, I guess I'll transfer." During my first semester here, I actually was uncomfortable.   I just it was too far and all my friends were back in New York and I was trying to acclimate to the new environment and Worcester wasn't New York City. I remember calling her and saying, "Ma, I need to go back home. I got to transfer to Columbia." She said, "Nope." She said, "Nope. I'm not helping you with any of the tuition, so you do that if you want to." Christian: You're paying for it. Ché: Right and I was just like, "Nope. I'm broke." I think for her it was, "You know what? You got to see this through and at the end of the day, if you don't like it, come back to New York." I find it to be intriguing that now it's been 13 years since I first got to Worcester and I still live here. Now I'm one of the biggest Cheerleaders in the city. But that's because of my mom kind of making me get here and honestly because of the campus, over time, making me fall in love with it. There was a person here before Rob named Boyd Servio-Mariano, Dr. Boyd Servio-Mariano. He's a doctor now, so I got to say that. Doc, which is what I call him, he spotted me as a first year student. There was a competition, a dance contest, during ALANA Student Weekend. Oh yeah, I used to boogie. I used to get down. So I got up on stage and won this dance contest. Christian: You won. Ché: Yeah. Yes I did. Christian: What was the competition? Ché: It was just they played music and you've got the freestyle to it and they played like an old Chris Brown song. It was Run It or something. I won and that was Friday night. Then Saturday night they did a trivia contest for Explore Asia. There was a group called Asia, which was for Asian students or Asian-American students. Christian: It's still here. Ché: So they had an Asian trivia contest and I went up against a kid, Chris Bondoc who actually went to my first high school before I transferred high schools. He's an Asian-American student. We had a trivia contest and I won. Point for me, take that Chris, all these years later. But Doc grabbed me and was just kind of like, "If you come here, you got to come find me." I was like, "All right, older guy. That's strange." Then I do come to campus, I realized because he went to my high school and at the time again, I was a young person with a lot of energy and didn't know all the best places to put it, so I was just running around and going crazy.   He grabbed me up and said, "Hey, you should come to this multicultural peer education group." I was just like, "No, I'm not going to do that. I'm not. I'm sorry." Then the MPEs, received tickets to the Boston Celtics game in Worcester. I said, "Oh, I need tickets to this game." He goes, "Only way to get tickets is if you come to a few meetings." I was just like, "Ah. You got me." Christian: He got you. Ché: So I came to the meetings and I loved it and I loved what they were talking about and I was all for it. then I went to the Celtics game and that was it. I'd inadvertently found myself a mentor. We literally had a conversation this past weekend. That's my guy. But he's another person who worked in the Office of Multicultural Education and picked me up and helped mold me into a productive person. That's what helped keep me at Holy Cross that he introduced me to guys like Tyrone Billingsly and Eric Collazo and other brothers on campus that were doing great things. He kind of forced me into, or some organizations that led to me getting on the BSU board and knowing the infrastructure to help found the Brother To Brother Committee.   He got me involved off campus and working with local junior high schools and high schools and talking to young people off campus and understanding what nonprofits role in developing a city were or an interfacing with a college. He kept me on the right kept me in shape when I stepped out of line, like a big brother would. So really, I think that he's a big part of that. I had somebody to look out for me because honestly, we all have on campus who knows kind of what happens, right? Like do I just spiral out and kind of not go on to do some things I've done. I don't know. So I think that's what kept me. My mom got me here, to be honest and then I had a mentor, I had a big brother who made sure I finished out strong. Christian: You kind of answered my next question. Who you we went to when anything went well or went wrong. Ché: I had some upperclassmen, like I said, Tyrone. I got Lawrence Dickson who play basketball. He's a cool dude. I saw him at the game the other night. Eric Collazo who was my RA my first year, rocky start, but then I was dancing at his wedding. When I say the brotherhood is strong, I mean that. So I think those are the people I turn to. And then there are people younger than me too, right? Like Jeff who wants a high school with me was a guy I roomed with my junior year when he was a sophomore. We had a quad. My first year roommate was my roommate every single year. That's still one of my best friends. If anyone could ever marry him, which, tough order, I'll be his best man. That's that.   Big shout out to Stefan. But I feel like I had this network also and I have to give her a huge shout out. Brianna Turner, who was my year at Holy cross. Licensed Social Worker, dynamic woman. They used to call us the velvet glove and the iron fist because Bri could make something out of nothing. She was just dynamic and got things done. We were the two co-chairs or the leads, I guess, because NPS didn't have co-chairs. So she was very task-oriented, goal-oriented, task master, bullet point list and I was the velvet glove. Like I'm going to make the sound beautiful and like sell it to the masses. It worked well because we both knew our strengths.   She was another person who those days where I was like, "I don't feel like doing this," would pick me up by my collar and be like, "Nah, come on. We got stuff to do. Let's get after it. So I learned a lot about project management as a student here because of Bri. I don't think Bri would even consider that or acknowledge that or call it project management. But she was someone who got me to understand, task management. I took that with sort of the personality that I had and I'm like, that's what helped me become a project manager for the City. Christian: That's fire. So I will have to say my person is Rob Jones. Shout out to Rob Jones. Ché: Big shout out to Rob Jones. Christian: He put me into MIC, put me on to a MIC and kind of like forced me into MIC, in a way. Ché: I see a trend. That was the trend. Christian: I think we all need those people to go to even just to talk to. I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this, but did you ever feel uncomfortable because of how you looked, or who you ... Christian: ... feel uncomfortable because of how you looked or who you were on campus? Ché: Yeah, I- Christian: Or even, so sorry to cut you off, have you ever felt the impostor syndrome? Ché: Oh, I still feel imposter syndrome now. Yeah. To answer the first part, your question, I am a lot of things. There are a lot of words to describe me, right. But for me, I'm an African American male from New York City, right. I love hip hop and rap music. I love ridiculous movies. I love sports. Some of that is considered stereotypical, right. Expected of me as a six foot three male who looks like me. And I think I struggled with that at first when I got to campus, right. I started listening to a lot more Bruce Springsteen, and Def Leppard, and Poison, and Mötley Crüe, and country music, which I never listened to growing up, but I was like all right, Dixie Chicks is going to be it because I want it to fit in to what a Holy Cross student was, right. I stopped wearing the stuff that I was wearing and started switching up and going, all right. I could wear some khakis and boat shoes. Christian: Right what you're wearing now. Ché: Yeah, but I wear this for work. Don't come at me like that, all right.   Don't do me like that. I have to go in a closet, all right. But honestly, right, I was just like this is what's expected of a Holy Cross student. And I went through that for a year of just why am I wearing these cardigans all the time? Honestly, right. Because that I thought that was ... And then it took me a minute to get comfortable in myself to be like you know what? If you didn't hear the new Gucci Mane album, that's your fault. You're missing out, right. I'm not the one ruined and things. And yeah, I mean I dress like this for work, but in all seriousness, I think that getting back into whatever I felt was appropriate for me and whatever culture I represented, it took a minute, but I got there. And I think that as far as imposter syndrome, I think that was part of it, right. I was trying to acclimate and blend in because I wanted to feel like I was a part of something, not realizing I was already a part of something.   And even now I find myself in some rooms, or on some boards, or on some committees and I walk in and I'm just like I can't believe I'm here. And I think that almost everyone feels. I know famous, well-paid, well-off people that I've got a chance to meet who will confide that they feel like they don't belong in some of the rooms they get, or they feel like they shouldn't have won the awards compared to some of their peers. And I think that's just natural. You know what I mean? I think when you do something extraordinary, quite often you don't expect to do something extraordinary. It happens and you fall into it, and you're like oh my God, here's this thing. And a lot of that is just a team around you. I have a team around me of friends, and coworkers, and confidence, mentors and mentees that will lift me up when I need it. And like, "You did some dope, you did a TED talk. That's great. Enjoy that."   And the ones that will deflate my ego sometimes. They're just like, "You're acting out. Relax. All right, let's not forget the way you dress for work," like you did to me. So I think that's all important to your makeup. A lot of people will say look at your five closest friends and that'll tell you who you are. And I think that that's a really simplistic way to look at it, but the people that you surround yourself with, the people that you spend most of your voluntary time with, that tells you a lot about who you are and who you can be. They're the ones that define some of your limitations, however you may see them, because they're going to limit you or they're going to push you to whatever's next. And so I'm lucky to have some people that I consider good friends or just kind of friends that I can call on and say, "Here's this crazy opportunity." They'll be like, "Go get it. Go after it. And if you don't get it, at least now you know how to do this thing that can maybe get the next opportunity to you." Christian: Told you I was going to get back to that athletic dream that you had, because honestly, all jokes aside, I had the same goal. I was trying to walk on to the baseball team. It didn't work out. I think that was probably the toughest thing I ever had to face all my life. I mean I went from a real high to a real low, and it was just like I was doing things that I probably would've never done before. I felt like I was trying to find myself again because before that happened I was a baseball player. After that, I didn't know who I was or what I was. I was really trying to find myself. I feel like you probably went through the same thing. Ché: Similar. I think that that I was always a nerd first. You know what I mean? I was always an academic, but I love sports and I was okay at them, and so it's funny, I got here. That did not work out, obviously, walking on or anything. And then played club basketball, intramurals. We won intramurals four years, twice in the A league, twice in the B league, a big shot, but we lost the championship. Anthony DiMichele, who's a football player, they beat us. And if I don't mention it, he was going to mention it, or make a comment or something when they posted it, so I just got to put it out there. But I never stopped playing. The school is getting a new field house, right. And that's fine. But back before they destroyed the last field house, my name was on the back board up until two years ago, right. Because we did a dunk contest and I dunked and put my name up with a sticker. That is like the best part of any legacy I got sports-wise on campus, and that was cool. That was cool that it still stayed there. But I think, back to your point, at some point you have to rebrand, just figure out what your thing is, right. It's like if you're a person that threw amazing parties in college, and then you look back and you're like wow, I'm 53 and I still throw these crazy house parties. Not saying that's not fine. If that's your thing, cool. Shout out to all my 53-year-olds throwing parties. But that just wouldn't be what I want to be known for, right. I'd hope that I had accomplished something in my life. And I think that a big part of the growth of your experience through your time on a campus is understanding that you can be dynamic. You don't have to be ... In high school you kind of fall into well, I am an athlete. I'm a great student. I'm the captain of the chess team. You have that thing that defines you. Ché: And I feel like as you grow, you want to be a utility person, you want to be dynamic. You want people to go, "Oh yeah, Christian. I know him from this thing," in one room and then another room go, "Oh right, but he's also really great at this thing." I think that you can be many things to many people, and that's something that it took me a while to learn, but once I did, that was it. I want it to be the Renaissance of all Renaissance. Christian: So I got a lot more questions. So all right, after your Holy Cross years. Oh wait, so a question. What are the untold stories of Holy Cross from your end? Ché: The untold stories of Holy Cross. Christian: Yeah, spilling the beans out here. Ché: There's a trillion untold stories of Holy Cross. Christian: We just need one. Ché: All right. One thing that happened on campus one year was we were talking about the experiences that students of color have on predominant white institutions campus. And we thought about some of the HBCUs and how they have yard shows, right. Stomp shows and such. And so we threw one. So when I was a senior, we figured out ways to finagle some money. Christian: On campus? Ché: On campus. And some of the administrators had contacts because they're a part of historically black Greek letter organizations. And we rented a stage. And right in the Kimball Quad, right down the stairs, the same way they do battle of the bands, we took that stage, we brought out four step teams. We had the Rhythm Nation Steppers also perform. We had people cooking out, right. They were cooking burgers, catfish, fried fish, like they did back down South. People were doing sides and soul food. We have food from the local places. Addie. Do you know Addie? Addie wasn't around at the time, this place called Sweet Teas, but yeah, same kind of feel, right. We even got some food from up at Home Style, right. And we got a microphone, and we had a DJ, and the DJ was playing hip hop, urban music the whole time. And then when there was time for show time, they did their step show, and we had a ball. And then we throw after party afterwards up at Hogan.   And for me it was amazing because for that six-hour period we got to feel like the campus was ours, right. And I think that that, for me, was a beautiful thing because the students came from BC, and from BU, and Becker, and Clark. I mean it was packed, not just Holy Cross students, because other people wanted to see what it'd be like if they also, at their traditionally none necessarily super diverse campus, can come and see just what a mass of us would look like, and what a party for all of us looked like. And it was something. And so I'd say that it was something I wish would've continued after we were gone because I think it is a good reminder of what can happen.   Similar to when Holy Cross played Howard, and Howard brought the band, and the dancers, and everyone up. And then four of us ended up going down to Howard the next weekend to visit. Class one Friday wasn't important that weekend. But we went down to Howard and we got to go to their homecoming, and there were so much love from Howard. They brought us on the field. We got to do the swag surf with everybody, because it was just oh, look at these three students of color who are extending themselves beyond Worcester to come down here to this area. And so that love was something that literally inspired us to bring it back and have this yard show step show. So there's some stuff that doesn't make it through kind of the storytelling pass down components of what we're doing, but is something that one of the things I hang my hat on this campus. Christian: You definitely should. Ché: I was excited. Christian: But transitioning into after college. So MCPHS. Got it. Boom. University. Right. Assistant director of engagement or student affairs? Ché: Student activities, student engagement. Christian: Okay. And initially wanted to get into law and government, but ended up there. Ché: At a college. Christian: Right. If you want to talk about that, you can. Ché: Yeah. Christian: Yeah, go ahead. Ché: Yeah. So I was prelaw, poli-sci. I got to my senior year and realized I don't think I want to be a lawyer anymore. And after my mom stopped crying, she was like, "What are you going to do?" Christian: I mean hold on. Not that there aren't any lawyers coming out of Holy Cross. Did she expect that? Ché: Oh yeah. No, for her, that was it. Christian: Interesting. Ché: My son, the lawyer was how a lot of conversations started. That was a thing. Christian: So Thanksgiving was- Ché: It was awkward. It was awkward, yeah. I only got one serving of mac and cheese, so you know how that goes. But she effectively was just like, "What are you going to do?" And I said, "For the first time in my life, I really don't know, but I do know I'm not moving home. I'm going to figure it out." And I start applying to jobs and looking for opportunities. And one of the former VPs here was Jackie Peterson, who's amazing. She recommended that I apply for the position at MCPHS. And I was staying on campus. I was working at [OME 00:49:20] for the summer, and they paid me a small stipend and then I got to live on campus, so I got a place to stay. And I interviewed for this position that was totally above my punching weight. You know what I mean? I was like I'm not going to get this. And Dean Peterson sends a recommendation and it got me the interview.   And again to that earlier point, right, sometimes you just need that foot in the door to make it happen, and I must've crushed the interview because they pulled me in and said, "Hey, we think you'd be great for this position." Right. First person ever in this position, I get to build and develop a program based on some other things they've been doing, and I said, "Let's do it." And I spent two years there working with students, working for students, engaging with people. The highlight of my time there is I got inducted into Phi Lambda Sigma, which is a pharmacy fraternity, not a pharmacist, but in this pharmacy frat, so shout out to all my brothers and sisters from Phi. Christian: I tried to hold it in. Ché: No, that's cool. That's cool. I got a pin and everything. It's official. But you know what? While there I had a supervisor who was a Dean of students, effectively the de facto leader of campus, named Shuli Xi, and he was so into the idea of me being a statesman. He would always say that to me. Don't be a politician, be a statesman. You want to be a person of and for the people and with the people, not just someone looking to get elected. And because of that, he brought me into his government affairs meeting. He made sure that when there was a consortium of the colleges that, I guess, I served on the student activities one, but also went to some of the student affairs ones in general with people who were in positions way above my own.   When I told him I wanted to join a committee at the chamber of commerce, he said, "Fine, and we'll give you the time off you need when you got to go to those meetings." When I told them I want it to be a Rotarian, and at the time I was one of the youngest Rotarians in the city, part of the Worcester Rotary Club, he said, "Great, we'd love to have MCPHS represented there." And so he supported sort of the dynamism of me going I don't know what I want to do, but I want to do everything and see what's going on. And he was cool with that. Even down to when I went and told him I was leaving to go work for the city, for the government, he wasn't like, "Oh my God," he was just like, "I'm sorry to lose you. But yeah, that's the next step of your life." He looked out for me as a person, which I appreciated so much. And my time there was great. I know a lot of pharmacists now and optometrists. Getting my glasses is super easy. If ever I need acupuncture, I get a discount.   That's sweet. But it was a great step in transitioning from 22 to 24 because I learned how to be in charge of something, right. Student activities was mine. The budget, I managed the Student Government Association, I developed a campus activities board and managed them. And so I learned project management, I learned people management. It was great, and it was a perfect transferable thing for kind of the next step in my career. So it was a kind of unique path. But again, it goes back to there's no right way to do anything. You kind of figure it out as you go. Christian: So I wanted to ask you what do you think has a big impact on a community? Let's say for yourself as an individual working at a desk, law and government. That's my view. Law and government. Or working with the community as you do now? Ché: So the answer I'm going to give you is a cop out answer, I'm going to let you know that, but there's a reason why. And so it is a reason why. Neither one of them, quite honestly, is more important than the other one. I think that they both, and as cliché as it sounds, are both equal for different reasons, right. I think that if you're a person that is solely behind a desk, and let's say you solely work on legal matters, on policy, on development of strategies, that is how you input change. That's how you impact things to a point that they're standardized, right. I can be a great leader and I can say, "You know what? As long as I'm in office, this is going to be the thing," but as soon as I'm out of office, if someone else just comes in and goes, "I don't believe in that," that's done. There's no policy there. There's nothing kind of on paper. There's no legal ramification of it. It only impacts a very small population or people at a certain time.   I think that when it comes to community development, community impact, you want something that has longevity, right. Every parent wants for their kid to not have to struggle the same way they did. I think that that should work as far as generations of constituents and community. I don't want the next you, or me, or whoever to have to fight the same fights I fought. Then what did I do for that time I was around? But I think that you want to be authentic to the place you are, and that there's a component that has to come from the community, right. Holy Cross' whole mission ... I just always say men and women for others. And then it was a shift to men, and women for and with others. And that shift is important, it's imperative, right. It's not about doing things for people, it's about doing things with people, bringing them along, having a conversation, knowing when it's time to lead and when it's time to follow.   And so I think that you got to work with the community to see what the community wants, right. Because you could have a great idea and the community could be like, "We don't care about this right now," right. "We have this other more dire thing." And so you have to know what the thing is before you can implement policy, or structure, or an infrastructure around it. But if you just have people that are, let's say, marching in the street, and fighting the man, and having ideas, but no-one flipped that switch to implement policy, well then you just have angry people, and another population of angry people who are mad that this population's angry, and they are just butting heads and not getting anything. If you just have people sitting in a room being bureaucrats, then nothing actually permeates to the community because you have no idea what the community wants. You're just doing whatever you saw online, or on TV and you think you're doing the best thing, but the two of you come together, that's how change actually happens. That's how real, positive, sustainable change happens.   So I'm a person that hates sitting behind my desk, to be honest. I'm not a fan of it. I'm a person that wants to be around people. And you have those days where you're like I've had nine meetings in a row. I haven't eaten. I've been just taking information in. But if I don't have time to go sit down and write that stuff up, and write those notes, and get it out to other departments to make things happen, or follow up with community partners because I didn't really understand something they said, but I want to do more with it, I'm missing the boat. So I know I just kind of said both, and that's not the answer you want, but I do think that both are equally important. Christian: Yeah, I kind of expect that coming from you. Ché: I mean, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Christian: Yeah. And you did mention the mission statement. Holy Cross mission statement. I feel like you have that before you even got to Holy Cross. Is that true? Ché: Oh yeah. That's the way I was raised. My mom said two things to me every day from the time that I was probably 3 or 4 going off to school, to the time that I was 18. My mother always said, "Hey, listen. Treat everyone the way you want to be treated," which is just basic. But to this day, she still, "Treat everyone the way you want to be treated, and be a leader, not a follower." To the point that when I was 10, she'd say, "Be a leader," and I'd say, "Not a follower. Leave me alone," but I think that for her there was something about making my own decision, and being able to decipher what's right from what's wrong.   And also whether I'm walking into any building, whether it's the person that's the concierge, or the person picking up trash, or the maintenance person, or the CEO of a company, you treat everybody with respect, and you show love to everyone. And I take that even beyond that, right. Whether I'm walking in City Hall and I'm talking to the mayor, or the grounds crew, or a person who might be homeless in front of City Hall, I say, "What's up?" I show love. I don't always have things to help, but I'm always going to give you respect as a human being.   And I think that that's something my mother instilled in me and then it moved on through all my schooling, and the Holy Cross sort of just drove it home a bit. But that's just the way that I was raised. Christian: So you got this mission statement Holy Cross, but then you got your own from back home: be a leader, not a follower. And so was the other one? Ché: Treat everyone the way you want to be treated. Christian: Treat everyone the way you want to be treated. I kind of struggle on that. There was one where treat everyone the way you think they should be treated. Ché: Yep. That one, I think, gets problematic. Christian: Yeah. Ché: I think no one wants me treated poorly, right? Christian: Right. Ché: So the idea is that you reciprocate that. I think treat everyone the way you think they should be treated gets into some real interesting things with some of your own biases or implicit biases or unrecognized issues you may have with some things. I think it's well-intended, but I think that it can lead to some interesting situations. Christian: And the one I never agreed with was treat everybody the same. Ché: Nope, same. I think though, whenever you talk about things like DEI, right, diversity, equity, inclusion, there's a reason that it's equity and not equality, right? There's an image people always paint of if you have three kids looking over a fence and they're different heights and you give them the same size box, that's equality. Everyone has the same stuff. That doesn't help all the kids, right? You want equity. You want the really short kid to have a taller box because then they can all see the game. And I think that in certain pockets of our communities, you're starting to see that. It needs to permeate more, but that equity is important. And that doesn't mean that you give everyone a dollar, right? The millionaire doesn't necessarily need that dollar, but that person that's struggling maybe needs $5 or $10 to make it out. And that's obviously me oversimplifying it, but I think that that's part of that being someone for and with others, you know what I mean? Christian: Yeah. Ché: It's the width to understand what the need is, and then it's the for that if you have more, you got to help out. And I don't mean to get all socialist here. That's not what I'm trying to do, but I'm being honest. Christian: Yeah, for real, bro. Ché: You know what I mean? You have to be realistic and then understanding what the needs are of people, if we're going to truly help and benefit people. Christian: Yeah. So I guess with the combination, if you have a combination with what your mother taught you and what Holy Cross taught you, have you ever came up with a mission statement that drives you to do the work you do now? Ché: The honest truth is that I have a statement that that drives me. It has a swear in it. You can figure out which word that is, that that is the one. I have two things that matter to me that drive everything I do. The first is I want to impact my community. And so that's whatever I have, right: time, talent, treasure, anything. I want to make sure that when all is said and done, whenever my last moment is here, that people said he cared and he did good by us, whatever that community can mean. And that can be my hyperlocal community, that can be my global community, whatever the case is.   The other is do cool stuff. And I think that for me, there's something special about doing projects that people think are interesting and fun. Not that there aren't things that are just that ... like making the microchip is important, and for some people that's super interesting. For the other people it's all right, whatever. But for me, I want to do stuff that people are like, "Aw man, that was awesome. That was an experience. That was a moment." Because creating moments is difficult in life and you hope to have and share a bunch with other people. So if I can combine the two and I can do things that are going to impact and change my community for the better and make sure that stuff is cool, that's what both allows me to rest but also keeps me up at night. You know what I mean? Christian: Yeah, I got you. Ché: Like thinking of how to do it, but then sleeping happy when I make it happen. Christian: Yeah, definitely feel that. What was your favorite project so far? Ché: One of them's a selfish answer, and one's not. I'm going to give you two quick ones. This year as part of the public art project POW! WOW! that I helped bring to Worcester, we were able to paint murals and do workshops and activations with youth in a public housing area of the city of Worcester. And we also painted on the abutting schools and did workshops in the abutting schools to this area. And so we got to work with a population that doesn't necessarily see academic development the same way, that doesn't feel it the same way, that may not even know it's happening, with kids that quite often feel overlooked. And I know, because I was one of those kids growing up.   And so to go over there and have these young people feel a new appreciation for the arts and feel like celebrities are coming around their neighborhood to paint, and getting tutorials from people that have worked with Dis

In this special episode, we feature the keynote address that Maggie O'Neill '99 delivered to the audience at the 14th Annual Women in Business Conference in November, 2019. Recorded November 2, 2019 --- Transcript Maggie: I believe that this school, I believe that the education that you receive here allows you to navigate the world in a much different way. You may not realize that right now, but I promise you that if you remember what I'm telling you when those things hit, it's going to start to resonate. And the more you exercise your ability to navigate the interdisciplinary world, the more you will succeed, which is a relative term. It's really the more you're going to impact other people, and you're going to bring people along for the ride. And that's a really important thing to do because that's your legacy. Maura: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, director of alumni career development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. This episode takes us back to November 2019 when Maggie O'Neill from the class of 1999 delivered the keynote address for the 14th annual Women in Business Conference, artist, designer, mentor, and creative entrepreneur. Maggie believes in art that makes an impact and design that creates an experience. In this talk, she speaks about the twists and turns that formed her career into what it is today. After graduating with a degree in political science, she has found ways to merge her passions for art, politics, social justice, and plain old having a good time into a career that allows her to make an impact on the lives of others. Throughout the talk, she speaks about the lessons that she learned at Holy Cross and how her time on the hill helped her grow into such a successful and inspiring force for good. Maggie: I am Maggie O'Neill, I'm both an artist and I'm a designer, and I'm a Holy Cross grad. I was a political science major, which I'm sure does not make any sense to any of you, how did I end up becoming an interior designer and an artist? What got me there? So that I don't spend the entire time talking about what got me there, I'm going to give you a cliff note version of that and then I'm going to tell you some things that I think are very important and I'm sure other women in this room who have moved on in their careers in different ways would probably agree with some of the things that I want to share. But I'm going to share my experience, how I've dealt with these things, what I think could be extraordinary tools for you moving forward. And I hope that if you have any questions at the end of this, no question is a stupid question, no question is a crazy question. And I have a lot of crazy stories, so I expect that you will have some questions for me.   So upon leaving the hill in 1999, I was a poli sci major, but I also painted and I stayed in the studios here for probably just as much time as I was in class for political science. But I didn't think that there was any career for me in the arts. I didn't know anybody growing up that was an artist, a professional artist anyways. I didn't really have people in the creative world around me that I could've said, "That's a career path I want to take." So I wanted to be a lawyer, and I wanted to be the president of United States, and I still might, we'll wait. We'll wait and see. I occasionally say #artistforpresident. And living in DC right now is really interesting. I try really hard not to get arrested every day.   So I came out of Holy Cross and I actually went back to school through the University of Georgia for a master's program in fine arts, but I ended up studying in Italy. And there's a lot in between that, but in order to make a little money on the side and also to understand the community I was in in Italy, I spent some time working on restoration projects. And I was climbing up scaffolding and mixing my own plasters and all of that. And I quickly realized that there was this reverence in Europe for people who were working with their hands. And the renaissance in general was so eye opening to me about the way in which history, political science, sociology, and culture had been documented particularly in Europe in a visual format. And part of my classwork was that we'd be in the studio for two days and then the other two days we'd have to go to a museum, and you had to be ready.   You had to be ready when they walked up to a piece to say, tell me the history of this particular piece of artwork or this altarpiece or what have you? I got pretty good at memorizing and I got pretty good at compelling arguments and communicating here at Holy Cross. And I didn't realize how strong of a skillset I had developed here that my classmates really were lacking in. And it was this revelation that I was like, "God, I need to be an artist for sure." I knew that this is what I needed to do with my life, but how? And how was anything that was so romantic in the renaissance going to be something that I could take back and actually pursue as a career?   So I came back to DC and I started doing anything I could to make money. I painted dog portraits, I painted baby furniture. I probably had five or six jobs at once. And I have to tell you that when you come out of school, it was a really interesting time because everybody is going to crawl before they can walk. So all of your peers may look like on Instagram and Facebook, like they are crushing it their first or second or third year out of college. Well, they're not, nobody is. And it may not be now, but you have to crawl before you can walk. And I did. And so anything I could do to keep my hands busy and try to keep some money in my pocket was what I was doing. And I started O'Neill Studios not really knowing that I was starting a business. I was 23, I really didn't know what I was doing. I got an LLC set up, I started to learn the nuts and bolts of business and very quickly that business grew to decorative painting and murals.   At that time, I was like, "There's gotta be something more for me." But I knew that if I just kept going, I would give myself these little mile markers, like, well, if in a couple of weeks from now I haven't done this or in a year from now I haven't done this. And I kept meeting my goals, which was great. But nobody in my network had any idea what I was doing. Everybody kept saying, "Are you going to keep up this whole art thing? You really think you're just going to ... This is how you're going to go? You have a poli sci degree from Holy Cross, you're supposed to be a lawyer. What are you doing?" And I think about that time, and I was looking for pictures. It seems like so long ago, but at the same time, it was such a formidable time in my life.   I slowly realized that when I started to work with other artists and when I started to meet clients who had these different backgrounds, there was this enormous realization in my life that we are all made different for a reason. And we know this, right? There's this faith based on understanding that we have here that you are born different for a reason, and you probably have a very specific reason that you're here. But it doesn't necessarily, it's not always that clear to you. I have a whole philosophy that is about color, and it really transcends everything, but it's both religious in some ways and it also will filter into all of my business and my business interactions. And I hope this makes sense to you guys in some ways.   But it was during this time in my life that this idea of color theory and this idea of I am here for a very particular reason, I have to figure out what it is. But I was seeing that the impact of my work, no matter how small, whether I had painted somebody's bathroom or I had given them a portrait of their child or I was able to paint a mural on the side of a building for somebody, there were these little moments where somebody was so happy when I was done. And the joy that I was able to bring somebody was intoxicating. It was like a drug, I wanted to do more of that. And to be in the residential arena or to just paint one painting felt so small. I was like, "How do I get more of this on a larger level?" As my business grew, I started to collaborate with other artists and other experts in their field. I'm jumping ahead a little bit right now.   The ultimate artist statement for me was that I was born to be different as you are, and I was designed to contribute something very, very particular to the universe and my immediate community. And that became very real to me. To be an artist really can take very many forms. You don't just have to be a visual artist to really understand that. So now what, now what? Let me rewind here for a second actually because I want to just throw this out. My parents are here, my dad's a Holy Cross grad. I think he might've been maybe my first mentor in the arts, I don't know. But I just want to thank you guys, I kind of blew past that. And during that time where I was painting baby furniture or dog portraits or painting people's bathrooms, I'm sure they were completely freaked out, scared to death that I wasn't going to be able to make a living, scared to death that this education, this robust education that I had just received at this school was being wasted.   And it really wasn't, it really wasn't being wasted at all. So I just wanted to say thank you to them for that. There's a lot of risk taking that's involved in not actually understanding what your next step is. And I remember having a conversation with my mom one evening where she says, "You just have to put one foot in front of the other. And if it's a mistake, then you just make another step, and you just have to keep moving forward. But to stay paralyzed by fear is the worst thing you can do for yourself." And that made no sense at that particular time in my life, and now it makes perfect sense to me now. So nonetheless, I started this O'Neill Studios. O'Neill Studios then became SWATCHROOM, which is what you just heard about, which is the restaurant, nightclub, hotel, design business.   I'm going to talk about some of the projects that we've done and get into that in a little bit. When I came back to DC, there was also this thing that there's not a lot of creatives in DC or at least that's what I thought, there weren't a lot of creatives in DC. And particularly 20 years ago, there wasn't a wealth of career paths for artists or creatives. And now the creative capital and the creative community in Washington is exceptional. And I encourage you to move there for various reasons, but it's really an exciting place to be as an artist and as a creative professional. I believe that I have a lot to do with that, I think that I've tried very hard to make sure that Washington understands the value of creativity and particularly the interdisciplinary nature of just letting your creative flag fly.   So no matter what lane you decide to go into to enrich that particular part of your brain and to continue to stay inspired is really critical. And I have a couple recipes for that. I'm rolling it back again, I'm kind of giving you a little bit of context because this is where I am right now. I'm 42 years old, and I could not be more proud of the business that I've been able to build, but it didn't just happen overnight. When Provost Freije says you have to work hard, you have to work hard in order to build anything. And you have to work hard to build anything that is really exceptional. And now to be competitive and to stay innovative, you have to try really a lot of different things. And you're going to fail along the way, and that's going to be okay because there's a lot of beauty in failure, which I'm also going to share with you.   So I probably have, I don't know, thousands of pictures of my early days painting people's bathrooms and being on scaffolding in rich people's houses, painting their ceilings, ridiculous stuff. So my practical work was the design work because that's what people could understand, "Oh, we'll pay you to do this." That makes sense. But public artwork was what I wanted to be doing. I wanted to be doing massive murals on the sides of buildings. And I reached out to all of the public artists I could find nationally, I wanted to apprentice. No one would take me because I was poli sci major, no one would take me. I go back to school, I do this restoration work. I come back to DC, and there's a call to artists to the Dc Commission on Arts and Humanities, and we had the pandas, but there was also the elephants and the donkeys, these big fiberglass sculptures that are everywhere that the city said.   Well, these were pandas. And I threw a couple proposals in. Well, Pandela Anderson was one of my proposal. And they said, so how do you propose that you will make Pandela Anderson? Because everybody else who had been selected had pretty reasonable designs. And then this one was a little offensive, it was a little strange. Pamela Anderson was really hot at the time, and how was I going to actually make her nose and her hair and her breasts and all of these things. I mean, I had to explain to them I had never done sculpture before, like zero sculpture. This is all fiberglass. And I fake it till you make it. Don't lie, but fake it till you make it. Well, I'll figure it out. And I did, I figured it out, but my mom ended up helping me with this.   But this was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever done. And she went for the most money in the city by $10,000, it was amazing. We sat in that auction, I couldn't stop laughing. I got paid nothing to do this, it was my entire summer. And then I sat outside of the restaurant where they put her and just watched people interact with her. And it gave me so much joy. I had no money, but I had a lot of joy. But in this particular moment in time, I met probably 75 new artists. That was a huge turning point for me because I met people that were doing things that I couldn't even conceive were possible. And I opened up my network, and I opened up my brain a little bit, and it was a game changer for me.   Maybe not financially, but psychologically. I mean, she ended up on CNN, it was hilarious. Pamela Anderson got like ... It was ridiculous. So back to color theory. So I meet 75 artists, I also meet the mayor. I meet all of these news people. I mean, it was this funny fiberglass sculpture just introduced all these weird people to me. Not just weird, but important people in Washington DC, and the people from DC Commission on Arts and Humanities. And because she was so outstandingly strange, I was outstandingly strange. I am outstandingly strange. And it was a huge networking opportunity for me. So back to the color theory thing. So the idea behind color theory abbreviated is that no two colors next to themselves or next to each other are ever the same.   So the color in the middle here is the exact same. But next to this orange, it looks very different. And next to the blue, it looks very different. Now, color is about chemistry and about light and about a whole host of things. But people are the exact same way. So everybody in this room has a palette. You're not just one color, you're a series of colors. And I think of it like fan deck and paint chips. And when you are next to somebody, you are never the same. They provoke something in you, they inspire something in you. It's positive or negative, but it's never ever the same. And that's a beautiful thing, and that is by design, God is the best artists that exists. There was a real thought to that. And so if you think about how that translates to your professional life, your personal life, there's beauty in that, which means you should take advantage of everybody that's sitting to your right or to your left at all times.   You never know what that person is going to do or how they're going to bring out the best in you or a particular thing that you didn't even know existed in your brain, in your heart, and in your skillset. And so just that whole philosophy for me became very real and is really how I navigate life frankly. It's how I've navigated almost all of my relationships. And when someone provokes something in you, good or bad, pay attention to that because it's something that you can do something with later, but it also should teach you how to deal with them and how to navigate your life. So if it's in a professional setting, I think that what it often does is you can start to understand why they're original, why they're unique, and what their value is not only your value, but their value.   I think what ends up happening is you can go into a situation where you may understand the person a little bit differently. And what then starts to happen is that you can have a lot of empathy. Empathy in business is one of the most important tools you can have. It doesn't mean sympathy, it means empathy. Everyone's coming to the table probably doing the best that they can do. But it's interesting that in business now there's this adversarial nature when you go into negotiation. In construction, I sit down ... By the way, I take people to the atrium of the National Portrait Gallery in DC. It's the most peaceful, beautiful room I can think of in Washington. It's calming, and that's an important place to have a tough conversation for me. You never know where you're going to be for conversations like that in business, but there's the assumption that you have to be aggressive, there's an assumption that you have to be well standoffish. You don't want to show your cards.   And I can tell you that the thing that completely takes the oxygen out of a room is when you're empathetic and you lead a conversation with love. And you lead a conversation where you understand the landscape of the other person and the other person's palette, so to speak. And I think that that philosophically for me has been a really important tool and something that I just wanted to make sure that you guys understand as I take you through all of this. The climate that you can create with forgiveness and empathy and love is like nothing else in business. It seems like an incredibly rare thing to hear in some ways, but color theory for me has taught me that.   These are pictures of my team, which I think are pretty hilarious. And I wanted to share these with you because ... This is a project called Morris, it's a cocktail bar in DC. It's like Wes Anderson and Alison Wonderland had a baby. And it's so charming, but we would do these photo shoots after the projects are over. And this is called Karma. It's an Indian restaurant, a modern Indian restaurant. And this is this really beautiful, it's in the private dining room. We took a rug and deconstructed it, and it comes over and it's this light fixture where the light filters down over you. I'm showing you these pictures because ... And this is a restaurant called Teddy & The Bully Bar, but this was the team of people that helped with that.   I built a business, and I've met people along the way where I was like, "You're different, and you're different, and you're different. And that's how we're actually going to succeed is if we can work together and we can be experts because you are an expert in your particular thing, I'm an expert in my particular thing, and get the ego out of it." Celebrate the fact that the differences that you bring to the table actually makes you stronger, and it makes you much more competitive, especially as a team or as a business. And that again goes back to color theory. So I have compiled a team of people that are brilliant, you guys, but none of us have the same backgrounds, and that's on purpose. So conversations can go longer. But if the giant game of what if.   And in the design industry, particularly right now, how you shock somebody, how you provoke somebody, how you create an environment that can calm somebody down or turn someone on, you name the emotion. But I have to figure out what it is that a client wants you to feel when you leave the room in order to design those things. And that could be done through lighting, it could be done through sound, it could be done through material choices. But in order to figure that out, I can't do that alone. Of course, I have very strong opinions, but I have to do that with a collection of people that have really, really different backgrounds.   To solve the world's problems, you can't have a bunch of people that have the exact same view on things. You really do have to get people together that have this interdisciplinary way of which that they actually creatively problem solve. And I felt like that was a really important thing for you guys to hear because I don't know that I recognized how much that this place taught me that. And when I have met with other designers or I meet with people in construction and I deal with commercial real estate, it is amazing how many people came out of one lane and they have stayed in that lane, and it's not doing them a service. It does not make them a stronger professional.   And I believe that this school, I believe that the education that you receive here allows you to navigate the world in a much different way. And you may not realize that right now, but I promise you that if you remember what I'm telling you when those things hit it, it's going to start to resonate. And the more you exercise your ability to navigate the interdisciplinary world, the more you will succeed, which is a relative term. It's really the more you're going to impact other people, and you're going to bring people along for the ride. And that's a really important thing to do because that's your legacy. Your legacy is bringing other women with you particularly, but also the rest of the world with you. If you have the brain that I know that all of you have in order to be here and you probably have a spirit to match that.   That's just something I want to make sure that you guys know. This is my design business, but this really translates to many, many other businesses. And the people that I see that are at the top of their game, vibrating on the highest level, they surround themselves with people who have completely different viewpoints, completely different backgrounds. And that's a common denominator I've seen across the board. So I think that's something that I hope you take away from at least what I'm sharing with you. Ego is not your amigo. So after I just told you you're so smart and you have so much to offer the world, it doesn't mean that you should ever forget this. I think as an artist and as somebody who is a personal brand to the extent that I have to be very careful about recognizing where I have weaknesses and making sure that I have people around me to support those weaknesses.   So DC is filled with egos, filled. Everybody wants to look over your shoulder, they can't wait to get to the next person, who's going to do what for me? It's really obnoxious. So this became something that as I'm trying to build my business, everyone's like, "Your name, your name, your name." But my name, which was O'Neill Studios, and it still is O'Neill. I was like, "I gotta take my name out of my business because if I didn't show up, they didn't want to talk to the people that were on my team." So that's when we moved into SWATCHROOM. And I have nine people on my team right now, brilliant, brilliant. Also, by the way, almost all women. And when they show up, it's really important that, I've said this to them too, you need to have confidence, but you also need to check your ego at the door when you are entering into some of these conversations with equally brilliant people, equally powerful people.   It's really something careful to keep in mind. And so I put it on the side of our building. So this was the beginning of SWATCHROOM. It was an old hair salon, and then we renovated it. And this is no longer our office, but this was our office for eight years. And 13,000 people I think drive by Ninth Street in DC and actually would see ego is not your amigo on the side of the building. And that gave me so much joy thinking all these people are going ... I mean, I'm blocks from the White House. Now, this is good. And so I want to throw that out there because what happens also as you grow and as you succeed and as you move up, it's really important to keep that in check and to help keep the people around you in check.   That's a gentle dance which we'll get to in a minute. So the dance, the dance of doing your homework and pivoting at the same time. So learning as much as you can, working as hard as you can, trying to find out as much information before you entered the space that you're about to go into. But then also keeping in mind that you most likely don't know it all, and you most likely will need to pivot at some point because the plan that you had, God had another plan or the room had another plan for you. And that has probably been the thing that I have had to learn the most, but also in a way where I enjoy it.   First of all, I love to dance. But if you think of it that way where the pivot is a beautiful thing, if you have to change courses or lanes or you have to figure out a different way to explain something to somebody, really lean into that, enjoy the fact that you're actually exercising your brain in a different way. It is inevitable that you will fail in this process. And I think that you got to remember that opportunity is created through pivots and through failures as well, which I'm sure you guys know and you've heard and you can see it on the Pinterest quote and all this other stuff, but it is true. The minute you are at rock bottom, the minute someone tells you no, the minute your idea fails, you have to bounce back and you have to realize that there's a lot of beauty in that. And the movement through coming up with the next idea or going back to the table to ask again for second and third and fourth time is really a beautiful part of your growth.   And so do not be discouraged. You can be disappointed for a little bit, but get over it and get back in because there's a lot of beauty on the other side, especially when you're able to get to the other side. You're going to learn a lot about the disappointment unfortunately that exists when you realize that the rest of the world is not like Holy Cross. The rest of the world is not going to be so willing to help you. This is my feet on a penny floor. So I did a restaurant called Lincoln. Lincoln is now eight years old, and we put a million million pennies on the floor as well as a lot of other awesome, awesome stuff that I'll get to in a minute. But there was only one other place in the world, anyways, the Standard Hotel in Manhattan has a penny floor, it's 500 square feet.   And when I pitched this design idea, they said, "Well, how are you going to do this?" And again, it's kind of like Pandela. I'm like, "I don't actually know how we're going to do this, but it's going to be amazing." I just kept saying, "It's going to be amazing. I'll figure out how we're ... It's going to be amazing." The general contractor on this project would not take liability, would not take responsibility for the penny floor because no one could figure out what the mastic was that the pennies needed to actually sit in to be on the floor. So I called the design firm that did Standard Hotel. I said, "I'm about to design a restaurant in Washington DC, could somebody please tell me what the material is that binds to copper? How did you get the pennies to stay down?" Click and call back. "Hi, I'm not your competition, I'm just this designer in DC trying to do this scene." Click.   They would not give it to us. Fine, I'll figure it out. I couldn't believe that they would prevent another creative from being able to execute something so glorious just because they didn't want to hand over that information. And in academia, this happens. In business, this happens. People want to hold the information to themselves. Well, you're going to find it if you want to find it by the way, which I found. And we did the floor, and I took responsibility for it, which was the dumbest thing I could've ever done, but I did it. And this got a tremendous amount of press because of that. And it was beautiful. It's no longer there, we had to take it up after five years. But it was absolutely stunning.   But I got a lot of nos during this project because this was probably the most innovative restaurant in Washington at the time as far as design goes. But at the same time, it was done by artists. I had 15 artists who helped me create this. There wasn't anything in there that wasn't made by hand, and you could feel it. You walked in and you could just feel the spirit of that many people touching this project and very proud of that. But it did not come without a lot of ridiculousness and a lot of nos, and a lot of challenges. But this was a very pivotal project for me because I got to hand Obama a portrait in this particular restaurant. And it was probably one of the craziest moments of my life because as a poli sci major, I realized that ...   This is Lincoln by the way, Lincoln who's one of my favorite presidents. And the whole place is covered in narrative, it was just really a special project. I think about this when I'm designing spaces, like what's going to happen in this room? Is somebody going to get proposed to in this room, will an amazing deal go down? What kind of negotiation will happen in this space? And then I think about how I want someone to feel in that moment, right? Never in a million years did I think that I would have the opportunity to give Obama this portrait. And I had this whole thing I was going to say to him, this whole narrative, I was a political science major ...   Now, I had given him a whole tour of the restaurant, and I was pretty composed during that time. And then they're like, "Maggie, go get ... The secret service agent, he goes, "Go get the portrait now." So I go to get the portrait and I just start balling, like uncontrollably balling. And I was like, "Get it together Maggie O'Neill, this is ridiculous. You have to get it together." And all I said was, "I made this for you," and it was awful. I was like, "I can't believe I just said this to him." And he hugs me. The most ridiculous interaction I could've ever had. And I was really a fail, big fail in that moment. I know now that it is in his home in Kalorama, which is awesome. But this was this amazing moment.   I'm bringing up this story because what you have to understand is prior to this project, so here's this beautiful moment that got me on the other side. We have this penny floor, we have all this press, it's fantastic. The first week of the project. So rewind a year or two, first week of the project, I meet with the GC. And it's me and 10 dudes, which by the way is pretty standard for a lot of these projects. And I am eight or nine years younger than I am now. And the GC says to me, actually he says to the whole group, "I don't work with vaginas." And I was like, "What did this man just say to me? Did anybody else catch that? Did anybody else catch that?" And he said it so flippantly, everyone starts laughing. You guys, this was such an important project for me on so many levels. Little did I know this was in my future, I was really upset.   I was appalled by not just what was being said and the laughter that was taking place after, but what do I do now? Because you're then in an arranged marriage basically for another year in construction. So I called my mother, she doesn't remember this conversation, which is really amazing to me. But I was like, "What do I do? This man says he doesn't work with vaginas, I don't even understand. How do I even respond to something so offensive and so disgusting?" And she says, "Well, it's a fact. You have a vagina, so present it as a fact. This isn't about how you feel right now, this isn't about the personal attack essentially or comment that was just made. This is a fact. So bring it up like any other fact that you would have." So I have the entire investor group and the construction team and the ownership in my studio and I print out an agenda.   And agenda item number one is the drywall, and agenda item number two is my vagina, and agenda item number three was all of the FF&E, the furniture and stuff that we had to purchase. And they were blown away. They were like, "Maggie, come on." And I was like, "Well, listen, I didn't say it, be said it. By the way, it's a fact. And if he doesn't work with vaginas, and I have a vagina, how are we going to get through the project?" And I made it their problem and made it their problem to solve. And a couple of them were I think really taken aback. The GC was appalled and really upset that he was called out. And 10 years later, I'm still friends with this GC, by the way. But we got the project back on track, and it was really one of the very first times in my career where I took something that was so upsetting and the biggest no basically that I could have been given in that moment and then tried a different way to approach it.   Because what I would have done was jump up and down, scream and yell and probably make a larger scene than needed. But to put it in an agenda and present it in a way where there's this factual conversation about what he had said to me was the best way I could have handled it. I feel like the pivot there was not only critical for me at that moment, but it also all of a sudden just kicked open this whole door of compelling, I had this compelling need, you guys to just continue down this path. So I was like, "What am I going to do? What are you going to do, Maggie O'Neill?" This is real, and this is everywhere by the way. The amount of ridiculous statements that I've heard over the course of the last 10 years in construction, particularly in commercial real estate, if that's of interest to you, it's very male dominated and it is the wild, wild West.   It has gotten a lot better, but it is a really tricky place to navigate. So the tools I have are art, art and environmental design. So I started to make a lot more artwork about this particular topic, and anywhere I could. Anywhere I could place messaging, anywhere I could place frankly commentary, social commentary. So this is in the bathroom actually of Teddy & The Bully Bar, but it's a flag that says I pledge allegiance to the badass women of America, but it's backwards. So you can only read it when you're standing in the mirror and you see it behind your head. And this was some woman on Instagram. This was right after Trump was elected, and I hadn't been back in the restaurant.   I'm going to read this to you guys because for me it's like this is when you know that you're actually starting to move the needle. And she says, "As a woman, an immigrant, and a Jew, I'm scared. But tonight, while on a business trip to our nation's capital, I found hope and inspiration in a work of art hanging in the ladies' restroom." That part, it's this small little moment, I pledge allegiance to all the badass women of America and to the society of ball busters for which it stands, one gender under no one indivisible with liberty and equality for all. This was on Pantsuit Nation, by the way, in case anybody followed that after the election. That was this aha moment for me that I could actually make a difference even just with one small painting. So there are a number of ways that I started to connect dots both in my immediate community in DC through arts and connecting with other women artists and starting to figure out how our work could actually make a difference.   I also started to travel, this is a charity in Morocco where the goal is to just keep these young girls in school. Unfortunately if they have their period, they usually do not go back to school and end up married at 13. And the cycle sort of starts again. But it's proven if these girls stay in school your GDP is higher as a country. I mean, the endless, endless proof that women staying in school, it's endless, you guys. And this was a product of me going to Morocco to go work on a hotel, literally go work on a hotel and ended up finding this community of women and working with them. And I was on the board for a little while, but I went back three times. And these young women, this is now a physical space that they can come and play and learn. It's a really remarkable organization that I'm very proud of, but it wasn't just that it had to be in my own backyard, there's so many ways that I could actually affect change by just being an artist and being a designer   Connecting dots is something that is really important for me also to make sure that you understand because they're not always so obvious. This again goes back to the interdisciplinary importance of being able to say, "Okay, well what's going on over here in commercial real estate, what's going on over here in our tech industry, and what's going on over here in the arts can all be fused together." It's a very important thing to think about yourself as a dot connector. In the arts, here I am, I'm chugging along as a female artist in DC, chugging along as a female designer and not knowing really anything about the industry of art, which I was a little embarrassed about. And I come to find out this particular time that less than 5%, this is accurate, but it's all major collections in the world. It's not just in the United States.   So less than 5% of all the artwork and major collections around the world is made by women, which is stunning if you think about that, stunning. It would be like taking half of the books out of a library, how is that even possible? Right now, this is still the statistic. And in Washington, we have the National Museum of Women in the Arts. It's the only museum in the world dedicated to women artists or women in the arts, which is also kind of remarkable if you think about it. So here I am, I'm growing in my career. I'm watching some really ridiculous behavior in my professional life as a designer. And then as an artist, I'm realizing that, well, I can get to this place where I'm an emerging artist. I'm sure you all know tons of female artists or see female artists on Instagram and so on and so forth.   But what happens when we get to a certain price point in our work, we drop off, we completely drop off. And there's lots of reasons why that might be the case. But I was like, "If I want to be the next Andy Warhol," which I fully intend to be, "what is happening? What is the barrier to entry here, and why does it seem so challenging for this to be solved?" Similar to the Lincoln story that I just told you about with he general contractor. I had a mentor that I was complaining and saying, "I can't believe, I absolutely cannot believe that this is the case. Well, how is it that less than 5%? This is crazy." I was just pissed about it. I was complaining.   And he looks at me and he goes, "That's an opportunity, it's an opportunity. If there is that big of a disparity, you have an opportunity in front of you. So why don't you go seize it, connect the dots, figure out how to solve it. You may not get it right the first time, but somebody has to try. And if no one's trying, there is no clear path to success." Which by the way translates to absolutely everything you're going to do. If it hasn't been done before, if you don't necessarily know that there's a linear path from A to B, you have to connect the dots yourself and you just have to figure it out and keep asking.   So I started to call female artists across the nation who had made it, who were selling their artwork for over 50, 60, $70,000. These are people who are living artists who have, for all intents and purposes, made it. I was expecting a lot of these women to ... I said I want to create something where if you could pick up the phone, if I could pick up the phone and call the Andy Warhol of our time and say, "How did you do it? How did you get from A to B?"Because the arts is not a linear career path, you guys. And now with Instagram and a way that you can access people, it's like the wild, wild West, and that's a beautiful thing.   It just means it's going to feel a little uncomfortable for you. It means that the person to your left or the person to your right, they may be doing one thing and you're doing it a different way, and it doesn't make it a wrong way. And that actually probably applies across the board. So I don't know if anybody is familiar with the woman in the center here, her name is Ashley Longshore. If you're not familiar with her, you should get familiar with her and follow her because you'll thank me later. She's probably one of the funniest people you'll ever meet, but she is truly the Andy Warhol of our time.   Her work has just completely exploded. She has taken over Bergdorf Goodman, she's been on every late night talk show you can think about. She's a remarkable person. I called, I don't know, two dozen artists, women who had made it. Most of those women told me, "I'm good, thanks. Let me know when you get it off the ground, sounds like a great idea." But if I had to figure it out, they'll figure it out. And I was like, "I can't believe," it's kind of like the penny floor, "I can't believe that somebody would not even just want to participate in helping. If somebody could have helped 22 year old Maggie, why couldn't you help 22 year old version of yourself especially in a career path that is much more challenging?" As an artist, you're on an Island. It is your own work.   It is not like you go to the office every day and you get to commiserate with other people. By the way, the studio environment, while it is a beautiful thing in school, that does not exist when you are out of school. It's an incubated, beautiful thing, but you really are quite alone. So when I called these women and I was shocked when some of them said, "No, I'm okay. I don't have any desire to help in this endeavor," I was incredibly, well, upset. But then the women that I thought would say no to me said yes to me. So we all got together and we started this organization together. And right now we have secured funding to actually be able to take this thing on the road the way we wanted to in a professional, respectable way. I don't want it to be scrappy because artists are professionals just like any other profession.   And that's something that if you can change one person's career, you can change an entire family. You could change an entire community. And there's a lot that we can do together. And I'm incredibly excited about the future of this, but it was by picking up the phone and calling people and asking and seeing whether or not they would get on board and they would help. These are two pieces, you guys. This is my Hillary portrait, and this is a Michelle portrait, but both of them are about six feet tall. And I had created both of these pieces for the first exhibit of SUPERFIERCE. But this is a series of work that I'm working on right now called social currency.   Judy Chicago, is anybody familiar with Judy Chicago? First of all, look up Judy Chicago too when we're done. She's a remarkable living female artist who did something called the dinner party in the late 70's. And it was incredibly shocking for everybody. And now she's got this whole resurgence because she's quite the feminist, but she's also this really tremendous artist. I set my sights upon becoming the kind of artist who would make a contribution to art history. And she speaks to me in many ways. But the minute I really set my sights on trying to do things that would affect my community, it's like the universe picks you up and it moves with you, especially when you're doing what it is that you're supposed to be doing. And this is what I'm supposed to be doing, and it feels right.   So here I am, this is at the National Museum of Women in the Arts. And I did this installation where it looked like paint is dripping on everybody. This is my assistant, she's been with me for seven years. She got in it and allowed me to paint her, and it was great. But that's Judy Chicago sitting in my installation in the chair there. And that was one of those full circle moments where she walked into, I almost fell over. First of all, she had on a rainbow sequence dress. And I was like, "Listen, I was thinking I might borrow your address at some point in time." She sat down, and we had this amazing conversation. And I said, "I'm starting this thing, and I really would love for you to help. Would you help aspiring female artists, emerging female artists?"   "Of course, I would, honey, you just talk to my person and let me know where I need to be." It was just this amazing moment. But it was also, I think God works in really mysterious ways. The fact that she had just sat down in this installation was remarkable. And now I have a direct line to Judy Chicago, which is amazing. This piece, which I'm sure you all are familiar with, fearless girl. So this commission was something that's very special for various reasons. I have 32 prints on my website and 20% of the proceeds of each of those prints goes to a charity. And this particular one goes to an organization called N Street Village in Washington, which is the longest running organization who helps women in crisis. So women come to the door. And when you buy this, you can buy five meals for women who are coming in in their first week, which I have chills just thinking about that right now.   If I had millions of dollars, I would dole it out organizations. But you have time, you have treasure or you have talent, and that is how you can give back. And this is how I'm able to give back. But this is a very important piece to me, and it's just sort of snowballed. So I did this installation in my old studio space where you could stand in front of the bowl and then you became fearless girl. All the little girls that stood there and little boys, it was amazing, but that's me in front of it. But the impact that one can make in just a small way is quite remarkable, and this is how I can make an impact. So I'm just sharing my own way.   This is the Women's March, you guys. There was eight female artists that were commissioned to do these 25 foot parachutes that we walked through. I don't know, did anybody go down to the Women's March in DC? It was wild. This is one of those moments where this says protect your mother, and it's a giant image of the globe. But the opportunity that that was given to me was only because I was completely active and contributing to the community. And I think that that is the other way in which you can actually grow your career. There is the professional way, and then there is the social justice part of what I believe we're put on this planet to do, and I think Holy Cross instills in all of us is that there's always another way that you can give back even if it doesn't seem that obvious to you.   And I'm going to end with this because I think I have gone on longer than I should at this point. I was given an opportunity to do a mural, a 50 foot by 50 foot mural on Pennsylvania Avenue. And the LIFT and Tishman Speyer came to me and said, "We want to do a mural for Women's History Month, and we'd like it to symbolize that women owned businesses in Washington are moving the city forward." And I was like, "That's a mouthful, I'm not entirely sure I know how I'm supposed to illustrate that." But I had lunch on top of my skyscraper in my dorm room at Holy Cross, and it was the men sitting on top of the girders over Rockefeller Center, which I did not know that they were building Rockefeller Center in this image.   Well, Rockefeller Center is where Tishman Speyer is headquartered, I did not know that either. So I did this literally very quickly because they needed this done very quickly, sharpie. And they said, "That's great, how did you know? This is amazing." This is the DC flag, the three stars on top of the two bars. And they said, "That's fantastic. I can't believe you knew that, you're so brilliant. How did you know?" "I don't know what you're talking about." "Oh, well. Tishman Speyer's headquarters are in Rockefeller Center." "Okay, well, I didn't know that. That's the universe throwing me a softball." And I wasn't going to lie about it, but it was just, again, there's this synergy that took place. This is the mural, it is 50 feet by 50 feet. You can see for scale, this is somebody standing underneath it, but it'll be up for the next year.   Now, this piece also has a charitable component to it, which is an organization called DASH. And they basically help people who are in housing crises. But this is one of my favorite projects to date because the amount of people that this has touched and the amount of women who have reached out to me, particularly in the construction design industry has been, well, again, it's intoxicating. And it gives me life, and it feeds me to want to do more work like this. And I'm really proud of it for various reasons.   It may not seem to you guys that a political science major who then went back to art who then designs restaurants, how is this all happening? And it's about saying yes and it's also about finding doors that people haven't necessarily knocked on. It is not that people have handed me these things left and right. It is truly through hard work and communication and figuring out how I can connect dots that I'm able to live in color, but I'm also able to bring other people with me. I'm very proud of that, but I also know that that's why I was put on this planet. But I also was put on this planet to bring joy and color and a good time. No, I don't think it's a coincidence that I ended up in the restaurants, night clubs, and hotels because I love seeing people have a good time. I love it when people are toasting each other. I love it when there's this great energy in the room.   So now if you say, "What's next, Maggie?" We've got three restaurants opening in the next month and a half, and SUPERFIERCE is going to be taking off. But I will be starting to do more environmental exhibitions where it's like an experience. It's not just that the artwork is up, but there's this whole immersive experience that you enter into. And that just by buying a ticket to it, it's like having your own piece of artwork. And I won't be doing those just in DC, I will be traveling and I have talks of doing something in Boston. So I will keep everybody informed. Where just the mere act of showing up is like being in the artwork itself. And I just did this in July, you guys, and this is just by asking a couple of questions, but there's a building in DC called Union Market, it's like Faneuil Hall kind of.   And they put the castles, which is our tennis team. They put a temporary tennis court on top of it, and they spent an obscene amount of money putting this tennis court up. And I asked whether or not I could have an event up there from the CEO, but I was able to paint the tennis court into a massive bingo board. And I had life-size human bingo on the top of this tennis stadium, it was amazing. And I got to have my own game show, which is basically what I've wanted to do for a very long time, which is why this might be ... You get a car, and you get a car, it would be amazing. But this is just built out of joy. I just wanted people to have a good time, and I have a whole body of work that's built off of bingo sheets.   I know that sounds very strange, but this is the direction that I'm moving in, which is exhibitions. All my artwork is in the back there on the stands, but people became part of the game. It was so fun for everyone, but it was also this out of body experience, and we raised money for Children's National. So anytime you buy anything from me that has a bingo, whether it's leggings or a towel, 20% of that goes back to Children's National Hospital. And that is because I went and played bingo with the kids there. They play bingo every Thursday from their beds. It's just a little heartbreaking and also very inspiring.   So I wanted to end with that, you guys, because it is a serious job being a smart person in this world. And you should take it seriously, but it's also a serious job being a joyful person in this world because it is really, really tricky to keep your head above water when you get disappointed and you get disheartened by those of your colleagues or your friends or your partner potentially who may disappoint you in ways or tell you no or tell you that it's an impossible thing to do. And I can promise you that if you just keep that joy and hold onto it as much as possible, it's like gasoline. It's gasoline on the smart part of you.   Your intelligence will only take you so far, but your spirit is going to take you much further. And all I can tell you is you have to take care of your spirit. So do whatever you can to do that. And when you recognize in somebody else their color and what they do to your spirit, keep those people tight. Keep those people around you and make sure that you recognize that you won't know what else you're capable of until you ask, until you introduce yourself, until you get a little bit more vulnerable. Because if you don't reveal who you are, no one's ever going to be able to take advantage of.   And I don't mean it in a bad way, no one's ever going to be able to hand you that opportunity. So reveal yourself to people. I think that's where the human experience is really important. And as an artist, I get to exercise that quite a bit, but I recognize another career path that's not always the case. So I hope that you all live in color and you all remember that you are coming out of this place with such an incredible skillset, an incredible toolbox of genius. But you are also coming out of it with the knowledge that you're put here for a reason, and it's because you're special, and it's because you're able to give back. And you are probably gonna... people... You're going to be the ones that actually change, I think, change the course of things for us. However, I can help, I would love to. I don't know what that is, but don't ever hesitate to reach out and let's make some magic together. Let's have a game show together. Maura: That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be men and women for and with others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the office of alumni relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, now go forth and set the world on fire. --- Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

Paige Cohen '21 speaks with Bridget Bowman '13 about her career as a political reporter, and how the Holy Cross mission has influenced her approach to connecting with voters and reporting the news. Recorded September 23, 2019 --- Transcript sHour, then how did you get from NewsHour to Role Call? Bridget: So the politics editor of the NewsHour at the time, her name is Christina Belintoni, she had been the political editor at Role Call and then while she was at the NewsHour, was then hired to go back to Role Call as the Editor in Chief and she encouraged me to apply to a paid internship that they had and I was kind of nervous about it. I didn't have a ton of newspaper experience outside of writing for the Holy Cross paper, but I knew that it would be a great opportunity to learn from seasoned journalists like Christina, to get my own experience reporting and writing. So I applied to that internship and I've basically been there ever since. Bridget: I interned for several months and then was hired as a full time reporter. I've kind of done different beats in Role Call throughout the last almost six years, five and a half years at this point. So it's been a really great experience, but that's kind of how I ended up there. Paige: So since you didn't have the print experience that maybe some other applicants had had, was there anything that you said in your interview that you think like really made you stand out or ... Bridget: That's a good question. I'm trying to remember, but that was a little while ago. I'm trying to remember my interview. I remember talking about specific races that I thought were interesting, like congressional races that were going on. So I think the political knowledge, and I also did get some writing experience at the NewsHour writing for their morning newsletter that they had, doing some stories for the website. So I did have that experience. I can't remember exactly what that interview was like. I remember who it was with, but I do sort of remember talking about the individual races so maybe that might've been helped. Paige: Yeah. General like political knowledge. I felt like, so I spent last summer in DC interning at the State Department and it was, I just felt like in DC there's this culture of everybody knows every political thing up to the minute. So just trying to keep up with that, but I feel like that's the way to stand out there. Bridget: Yeah. People in DC are very focused on, it's kind of a funny world. Paige: Yeah. Bridget: But it's interesting, for sure. Paige: I know. I'm trying to like get back on my podcast here at Holy Cross and I'm like, you know, keep up, keep up. So have there been any stories that you've worked on at Role Call or anything, any big highlights that were your favorite to write or research? Bridget: Sure. I think anytime that I've traveled, so I've been on the campaign team for the last two and a half years, jumped into the politics team covering the midterm elections last cycle, which was kind of wild. There was a lot. It was so closely watched and so much going on. But anytime I've had a chance to travel has been really interesting and just getting of DC and talking to voters has been fun. I covered the Alabama Senate special election where a Democrat Doug Jones won and upset the Republican candidate, Roy Moore, who had, you know, sexual misconduct issues and there was a lot of stuff going on in that campaign. And I remember being in Alabama and the days leading up to the race and writing stories about who are the Republican voters that were supporting Doug Jones because that was why that race was competitive. Bridget: And also writing about how both candidates were using religious networks to kind of reach out to communities. Jones, focusing on African American churches. Moore, focusing on rural churches throughout the state. So I think that race was really kind of fun. It was kind of my first big election that I covered and just we ended up going to Doug Jones election night party. We had no idea of which candidate was going to win. It was so close. People I was talking to in both parties, nobody knew what was going to happen. We kind of made the choice to go to Jones because we figured if he were to win that would be the place to be. And just kind of being there when the race was called and scrambling to write follow up stories was just a really interesting experience. Bridget: And yeah, like I said, being able to travel and see parts of the country has certainly been really interesting. Paige: Do you think, you know, Holy Cross has such a focus on the community and you said you were involved in Spud, so I'm curious, did any of that start to come back to you? Like that kind of community learning component? I don't know. It might be fishing. Bridget: Yeah. I think so. I mean, you're always trying to tap into different communities and figure out what voters are thinking and what's motivating people, what's driving them to the ballot box, what messages are working. So that has a lot to do with going into different communities and talking to regular people. I've literally stood outside of Walmart's and asked people as they go to shop, what are you thinking about? Who are you going to support? And things like that. So I don't know that answers your question. Paige: Yeah. No, it does. It just, yeah. So, and then what is the most difficult story that you might've had to cover? Was there anything, I don't know, difficult and it could be in different ways. Bridget: Right. Paige: Hard to write or maybe troubling to write. Bridget: Sure. That's a really, there's been so many things going on. I think one story that took me a really long time to write actually was an earlier story I wrote at Role Call on the, so my first beat was covering the Capitol campus, which is like the kind of the local news of Capitol Hill issues impacting staffers, legislative branch agencies, which includes the Library of Congress. And I had heard from some folks about, concern about diversity and discrimination issues for Library of Congress staffers, that staffers of color were seeing some barriers in being able to advance up. Bridget: So that took a long time to kind of report out and kind of at the same time, the first African American Librarian of Congress was nominated and being confirmed. So there was, you know, history being made at the highest level of the library, but those are the lowest level were still seeing a lot of barriers to advancement. Bridget: So people, especially regular workers, don't always want to talk to a reporter or go on the record, but it involves a lot of talking to people, digging through court documents, seeing discrimination cases that have been filed, talking to the unions and talking to them, going back and forth with the library about their diversity plans and things like that. So that was a huge, a big lift. Bridget: But it also led to another story about diversity among senior Senate staff when I was on the Senate beat. After that story came out, then Senate staffers are reaching out saying we're having some similar issues in the Senate. Bridget: So that's always kind of a really sensitive issue to talk to with people. But it was a really good experience in how you bring together interviews and legal documents and all of that. So that was definitely, that was a lot of work. Paige: Well, and it strikes me like that's the kind of what you're talking about, the essence of your mission, like the finding the truth. I mean, literally digging through and getting all these interviews together and bringing all these different, you know, people from different walks of life all together. So. Paige: All right. This is kind of a big question. What does it mean to you to live a meaningful life and how is your work a part of this meaning and maybe how is it not? Bridget: That is a big, very big question. Paige: Yeah. Bridget: Critical thinking at Holy Cross. I think when I think of what it means to have a meaningful life, I think of what kind of impact have you had on people. I think professionally, when I think of what kind of impact I'd like to have, I'd like to kind of be able to look back and say I told stories of people who hadn't been heard before or I shed light on a problem that hadn't been noticed before. I think that that's kind of what I like to think about in terms of my career. Bridget: Kind of personally, a meaningful life can be how you are impacting the people around you. And I tend to think of that Maya Angelou quote where she said people don't remember what you said or did, they will remember how you made them feel. And so, am I making the people around me feel loved and respected? Paige: I love that. You answered it, I think. All right. So we want to do a little Holy Cross speed round to go off of the big question, into Holy Cross questions. All right, so speed round. What was your favorite dorm at Holy Cross? Bridget: So I lived in Figge my senior year, which was beautiful and awesome. But I probably have to say Hanselman for the sentimental value because that was my freshman dorm and a lot of my friends are friends that I've met in Hanselman. Spent a lot of time doing homework in the Hanselman basement. So I think that even though Figge was newer and nice and beautiful, I think I have to say Hanselman. Paige: Do they call it Hanselfam when you were here? Because now it is the Hansel family. Bridget: Hanselfam? Paige: Hanselfam. Bridget: I love that. Paige: So it has continued. Yes. Bridget: That's great. That's so great. Paige: Okay. Favorite Cool Beans order. Bridget: I love their chai. My friend called it Christmas in a cup, which is so accurate. So good. I also love the pumpkin bread at Cool Beans. So good. Paige: So good. Bridget: So good. Paige: All right. And then Kimball meal? Bridget: Kimball meal. Oh, I'm trying to remember. Wasn't there like an Apple Fest thing? Paige: There is, in the fall. Yes. Bridget: Where they have a ton of apples. I remembered that was always really exciting. Paige: Yes. The caramel apples. Bridget: Yes. Paige: Very good. Bridget: I also remember having a lot of the stir fry station. Paige: Yes. Bridget: But that was ... Paige: Love the stir fry station. Bridget: That was a good one too. Paige: Favorite class? Bridget: That's so hard. I thought meaningful life was going to be the hardest question. I mean, I loved taking classes outside of my major too. I took American Sign Language, which was really interesting. I did love a lot of my poli sci classes though. Bridget: One actually I still kind of think about is my senior year I took a seminar called politics and technology and we kind of went through historically how technology had impacted politics. And even then we're talking about campaigns micro targeting people like very specific digital ads aimed at people. And today, I deal with that all the time and I find myself kind of thinking back to that seminar where we could, I kind of wish I could just sit around and talk to people about it for awhile like we did then and that was really interesting. Paige: Favorite professor? Bridget: That's also really hard. I can't just choose one. My freshman year I had Professor Stephanie Yule from the history department. She was fantastic. She actually I think might've been the only professor that I had that made us learn every person's name in the class. Like she would call us to the front of the class and we'd have to identify everyone. Paige: That's some pressure. Bridget: Which was scary but also awesome because the next four years, I knew, we all knew each other so well. So she was fantastic. All the political science department professors were fantastic. Daniel Klinghard, Ward Thomas, Donald Brand, Lauren Cass, just a really great team. I can't. I don't think I can pick just one. Paige: Yeah. Yeah. Bridget: But that's an amazing part of Holy Cross. The access that you get to your professors, to go into office hours and the small classes is definitely something I really enjoyed about this place. Paige: Well, and it's good to hear all of those names because they're still here for the most part. Bridget: Right. That's true. Paige: So I was just walking down the political science department hallway, seeing their names, so I hopefully be in their classes. Bridget: Nice. Would recommend. Paige: And then favorite Holy Cross memory? Bridget: That's a really good question. I mean, there were so many big events, graduation, the night before graduation is always a really fond memory. I feel like my favorite memory is not a specific thing, but just thinking about my friends just hanging out in our dorm room, a couple of my friends played guitar and stuff and that just all being together and just relaxing in a dorm is something I really miss. Bridget: I think when you're here at Holy Cross and kind of in the moment, you don't realize how fortunate you are to just be surrounded by your friends and to be learning all the time. And we're all, a lot of us are spread out, so I definitely miss that a lot. Paige: Yeah. Your friends like downstairs or just a meal at Kimball. Bridget: Right. We used to think like going from Figge to Carlin is so far. Paige: Such a long walk. Bridget: Right. Paige: And now in DC and they're Connecticut or Boston, it's a little farther. Bridget: Oh my gosh. All right, and then last question. What is the best part about being a Holy Cross alum? Bridget: Oh my goodness. I think just the community that alums have. Our alumni network is so active. When I was, as I mentioned, I think when I was applying to jobs, I was using the Career Advisor Network, talking to alums, asking for as much advice as I could. And in DC, cities have different chapters of alums. In DC, we get together about once a month and when I tell other people that my college does that, they're kind of surprised. Like what? Like you still, you ... there's that connection? Paige: Yeah. Bridget: But that's been a really great part of it. And whenever you meet another Holy cross alum, you have that instant connection, whatever it is about this place that kind of bonds people together is definitely a really great part about being an alum. Even though I miss being a student here, that's like something you can probably look forward to. Paige: That's good to know. I'm glad it doesn't end here. Bridget: Right. Exactly. Last pumpkin bread unfortunately, but ... Paige: You have to make that yourself. Bridget: Exactly. Not as good. It's not as good. Paige: Well, Bridget, thank you so much for talking to me today and I hope to talk to you more in the future. Bridget: Sure. Thanks Paige. This has been really fun. Paige: Thank you. Maura: That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be men and women for and with others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, now go forth and set the world on fire. --- Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

In this episode, Efrain Lozano '19 interviews Kati Fernandez '15 about how the lessons she learned at Holy Cross impact her success in media. Recorded October 4, 2019 --- Transcript: Kati:                 I encourage people to go after unconventional jobs, to go after the jobs that don't look as attractive on paper, to go after the things that really do spark joy in their life, in their soul, that makes them better, that makes them want to change, that makes them inspired, that makes them a better person because we need happier people in the world. Maura:             Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, from the class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. This episode features Kati Fernandez from the class of 2015. Kati currently works as an Associate Director of Content Integration at ESPN Plus, after working as a producer at the NFL Network and Hulu. Her career has progressed quickly, and it wasn't without notice. In 2017, Kati was recognized by El Mundo Boston's Latina 30 under 30 list. Efrain Lozano from the class of 2019 speaks with Kati about what it takes to become a director at a young age. A mentor to Efrain for the past four years, Kati also turns the mic on him to better understand the challenges facing students as they enter today's workforce. Throughout the conversation, Kati discusses how the power of relationships and care for others has contributed to her work ethic and success beyond the hill. Efrain:             Hello, my name is Efrain Lozano. I'm a member of the class of 2019 from LA, and today, I'm here with ... Kati:                 Kati Fernandez, from the class of 2015, which sounds insane. My five year reunion is coming up next year. Efrain:             That's insane. That's crazy. Kati:                 I'm a real adult. It's does not make sense. Efrain:             We're just going to have some questions just to learn a little more about you, the work that you do and how Holy Cross has influenced you and the real world, what our students are hoping to get at. The first question, just how has Holy Cross' mission or one of the Holy Cross missions influenced your life in general? Kati:                 I mean, that's a great question. I think that it does it in a couple of ways. I think one of the biggest things I took out of my four years here was really understanding what it meant to be a man and woman for and with others, and what that means being a real adult, as I joked in the beginning of the podcast, in the world, your social responsibility, what that means in the workplace, in and out of it. And it's also discernment. Once you're out there, it's how are you tackling problems? How are you thinking about them? How are you thinking of solutions? How do you brainstorm around these real world scenarios, and then make a decision based on the values and the core that you know is true to you, and what you've been taught. So, I think that from a work perspective, those are the things I try to bring in day in and day out, is keeping in mind my team, keeping in mind those around me, how I can serve them, how I can be of service to them, no matter what role I'm in, and most of all being conscious and being careful and thoughtful about my responses, my actions, and how that could impact somebody, especially nowaday, where there's so many crazy things happening in the world, I don't take that lightly at all. Efrain:             Yeah, definitely. And then, just going back a little, can you talk a little bit about the work that you do currently? Kati:                 Yeah, sure thing. I currently work at ESPN Plus on the original content team. There, I am one of the associate directors of content strategy and integration. So, my job really is to focus on how we're envisioning the content to fit into the business needs, and from there, how we then deliver that message to the consumers. So, from inception until production time, I'm really working with a team of development, a team of creative managers, a team of producers that are out in the world executing, making these shows great, and on the back side, I'm thinking about how we're launching this show, what that cadence looks like, what the brand message is, how we're rolling it out on channel, off channel, across a bunch of different verticals, whether it's social media, digital, linear television, paid, the whole 9 yards. Efrain:             Awesome. Just going back on the mission of Holy Cross and how that got you to where you are today, was there a moment that you said, this is my mission. When did you discover that mission that Holy Cross got to be... Kati:                 I mean, I think that, when I was a student here, my major was music, and I also studied premed, and that's so different than what I'm doing now. I do think it's really one of those schools that trains you how to be an individual that's ready to tackle the worlds in an efficient, thoughtful and ethical manner. And the way in which we do that is, when you come in and you're focusing on the Montserrat program, which was around when I was coming in, you're really learning what those values really mean and thinking about them and thinking how the apply to your life. And even though at that point we may not give it as much thought because we're too cool for school and we're freshman and we're living our best lives, I really do think it resonates with you and it stays with you in a way that is unexpected. And so, I think for me, it clicked when I graduated and everyone had these fancy jobs, and that pressure is unreal. Kati:                 It's unimaginable, it's one of those things where you're like, well, I'm not part of Teach For America, I'm not a finance major, I didn't secure a job in December. When I was graduating, it was maybe around April, I was still looking. And I had a couple of feelers out there, but it was tough. That pressure gets you because it's that idea of I need to succeed, and that's when I had to really rely back on the values that I was taught of patience, understanding where I'm going, my purpose, my divine purpose over my life, and what that meant for me, and that comes in different time. So, I graduate, and I'm still waiting for the NFL Network to send me an offer letter. They had verbally committed to me, and verbal means nothing to me, unless it's on paper. I'm like, this is great and all, but hello people, get with the program. I have some move, I live in Boston. Kati:                 And so, shortly after that, I just kept my head down and really prayed on it, and really understood that what's for me, no one can really take from you. It ended up coming three days before I was set to start my road trip to Los Angeles. So here I am, this sparky 21 year old who thinks they know all the things in the world, don't know anything besides the core values I was taught here because you learn a lot in school. We learned for four entire years, eight semesters total, that's a long time. But it's almost what you learn outside of those in parallel to that, that really stays with you and gives you real world experience. So I moved, I have $3,000 in my bank account, and I'm like, well, here we go, don't have any other choice but for it to work. And so, I think having that blind faith and understanding and knowing that at the end of the day you want to do good things, and that it's not only for your benefit, but how you're giving to others, going back to being a man and woman for and with others, that's really the key. Kati:                 I think that where sometimes people run into hurdles, even when they're very successful, is when it's all about them. And good leadership really stems from serving others, not just serving yourself and benefiting yourself. Efrain:             Yeah. That's powerful. I would say just in general, I think us, students think about that. I think we don't start to realize that, especially when it comes to senior year, a lot of students are just with that pressure. Like I see a lot of these people getting jobs, getting internships and all that, and then I'm just stuck here like, okay, what's going to happen now? What do I do? What's the next step? And I think that's definitely good for just students to know they just got to go with what the world brings to you and go with that. I think that's that's definitely good advice for students here at Holy Cross. Kati:                 I do have one question for you. I know that you're really interviewing me, but I think that brings up a really good point of, you're a senior here, and I know you personally really well simply because we got paired together in 2017, and I became your mentor and here I am only two years out of college myself. And so, I'm curious to hear what that pressure and that experience is like, and how one navigates through it. Because I think from an alumna's perspective, I do think it falls on us too to help you get through that and to not only show you that it's okay and those times are exciting, but I'm curious to hear it from you. Efrain:             Definitely. I would say that at first, it's tough just to, again, to see those other students that are in other positions like finance or Teach For America, like you brought up, having those opportunities already out there, or just students in general that are Holy Cross legacy students, and they have something secure, and especially being a first gen student. As first generation student, you don't really have that backup there or someone to guide you through that process. So, that's something that you have to go through on your own. I think personally, on my end, something I was taught here from the beginning was ask questions, reach out to people. The worst thing someone's going to say is no. And at that point, I was like, you know what, I think I just got to reach out to people. I got to talk to people, whenever there's events that all the alum come back, then it's just like, okay, I'm going to go introduce myself, and you never know who you're going to meet in those events. Efrain:             I think just in general, you don't know who you're going to meet, wherever you are. So, you always have to have that mentality of, I'm out here, I'm always trying to advocate for myself, and I think sometimes it might sound a little selfish, but sometimes you do things for other people, but you're also got to focus on stuff that they do for yourself. I think that to navigate that and to navigate all that pressure, that anxiety, it's like, okay, you just got to sit down ... and at Holy Cross, I do a lot of reflection, just got to reflect on where you are at the moment, and where you want to be or where you envision yourself going. I think it's just that moment of stopping yourself, take a step back and just see everything you have in front of you, and like, okay, I'm here at this point, at this moment, so now, I'm like, okay, what do I have to do for myself to get to that next step? Efrain:             I mean, I think it's just that realizing when you got to stop. Because I think Holy Cross, it's always hectic exams, classes and everything, so you're always moving. But I think it's really powerful when you are able to stop yourself, and think, and reflect on what you've done and where you want to go, and I think that's definitely something that is really helpful when it comes to navigating what's going to be the next step. Kati:                 Of course. And I'm so thankful that you feel comfortable to share that with me, because that pressure you feel as a senior, it's the pressure we feel in life. I think it's so important to understand how to maintain your peace in the midst of the pressure. And even for me, as a fake adult like I jokingly keep bringing up, that's really challenging, because not only now are you chasing a job, but when you get onto the world, you'll be chasing a promotion, you'll be chasing, maybe in five years or 10 years, maybe chasing your significant other, maybe in 50 years, is chasing your retirement. And it's really, really important to still stay true to the present moment, and it sounds so cliche when it's like, all we have as the present, and truly that really is all you have, and there are so many blessings in the midst of the adversity and in the midst of those moments, where all we're thinking about is forward or not where we have been or even where we currently are. Kati:                 I'm really, really proud of you for having the tools already, and understanding what's coming and applying that now because the more you practice it, the better you get at it. Right? Efrain:             Definitely. And I think that's something that I learned here at Holy Cross. I don't think I would have learned that anywhere else. I think at the beginning, I was always saying like, ... my first year, my sophomore year I was always going with everyone, you're coming from LA, I was like, I need to get used to the lifestyle here. But it's like, no, you got to find whatever works for you. I think that's something Holy Cross is really good at, making you realize what works for you, and what works for you probably is not going to work for other people. So, it's like, find your own path to here as well. And then just in general, the alumni community, the connections that we can make here, it's so powerful and then so useful as well. I think Holy Cross alums are always willing to share what they've gone through, willing to help out Holy Cross students as well. I think that's something that, in the student perspective, it's really helpful to have someone or to have people out there that are willing to advocate for you and look up to you. Kati:                 Absolutely. And I mean, that just goes to show you the power of the school and the power of our commitment to its mission. Truly, because an alum gave me my first job, I was not qualified to work for the NFL, not at all. I was like, sports? What? Sports. That's about it. And that's all I had to go from there, and so I think that's all of our duty to really present those opportunities for you guys and to show you like, hey, it's not that scary, and while you're at it, enjoy your senior year, take chances, join the activity, talk to the person that you wouldn't expect, because the blessing really is in the relationships. Efrain:             That's true. And like you said, I think that just in general, Holy Cross, we have that out there, and I think from a certain perspective, it's like ... I think the alum are doing their job out there and willing to reach out and come back, and I think it's also our duty to reach out as well. I think it's like, we've got to meet halfway there. It's definitely important for us to do that. Just in general, how do you feel your Holy Cross education influenced the work that you do now? You talked about it, but I don't know if you want to touch on specifics, especially being music, premed, and then doing something completely different when it comes to media. Kati:                 Absolutely. It's like I mentioned, you get more than just the education. You get much more than that. You get a community, you get reflecting, you understand what that word means to its core. You don't want to just know how to define it, but you know how to practice it. And so, I think for me, what I gathered from my ... right before I came here, I went to lunch with one of my old professors from here, Professor Beard, who was in the sociology department, and some of these classes I found the most intriguing, were the classes that weren't even in my majors, as dysfunctional as those were. It's even just having the opportunity to take a religion course, to take a medical sociology class, to take a course that's completely different from what you know. And the best way for me to put it together, it's like, he's going to totally kill me for even sharing this story. There was this guy, his name is Nate, and him and I were in the same exact calculus class, freshman year. My freshman year, he was a sophomore. He graduated in the class of 2014, and we had nothing in common. Kati:                 You're talking about a girl who was born in the Dominican Republic, first generation in college, he's a white boy from Canada, plays on the baseball team, nothing's overlap besides the fact that we both disliked majorly calculus, but it was a requirement for both of our majors. And so, it goes back to the relationship, we built this great bond, and fast forward to couple ... he graduates, I graduate, we end up in the same exact field, he's working for the MLB as a professional, I'm working at the NFL at the time as a professional. We're meeting up in these different cities, and we're really just encouraging each other, continuing to reinforce the values that we learned, not only here and during our time together, but as we're applying them firsthand in the real world. And just this past year, he ends up launching his own company, getting a ton of success in it, and we ended up going back to the Dominican, and I film a video for him and these MLB players, and that is right there, the power of Holy Cross, right? Efrain:             Yeah, it's amazing. Kati:                 That couldn't be said anymore, it's like it's bringing this group of people of almost misfits, like we all fit, but we all don't, everyone's story is slightly different, but we're all here with the same purpose and objective, and we're learning all these things together firsthand. And then, we're then taking that and applying it to maybe the skill, the technical skill we may have learned here, whatever that means, because the world is changing so much, and then applying it into the real world. It's much more than that because you're learning just as much as you learn from me, I learn from you. Just as much as Nate and I learned calculus, I learned about him, I learned about his background, I learned about what makes him think in the way that he does, what makes me think in the way that I do, and both approaches are different and both approaches are okay. And so, those things can be taught in a place, I don't know if I could have gained those same skills at Syracuse, which is my alma mater as well, I got my master's degree there and it was different. Kati:                 Just even the way that the campus is structured does not bring that atmosphere or that cohesiveness that the Hill does. It serves this literal location, but it also serves as this very real synergy with everyone that lives in it, and or interacts in it, or has come across it. It touches you in a different way. Efrain:             Yeah, definitely. I feel like that story is just amazing just because I think as students, we don't realize the people that we have sitting next to us in class. Sometimes you just go to class, take notes, then come back. It's the same routine every day, but you don't get to meet the people that are sitting few feet across from you or just right there. And I think that's just important to take away, as students and just ... like how we're saying, go out there and interact with these alum, at the same time, you've got to interact with your own peers in the classroom. I don't know, get someone and like, we can grab coffee or something. Kati:                 100%. I think relationships have been lost due to digital, to a certain extent. And I'm a little guilty of it because I work in it, but I know firsthand how it impacts. I have to challenge myself to call my mom instead of text her, because texting might be so much convenient, but talking to her brings me so much more joy. And so with that, it's like we're always the next big thing, we're always doing what's convenient for us at the time without understanding that by bypassing almost those natural rules of relationships, we're doing a disadvantage to ourselves. Who knows? It's easier to talk to the CEO of your company than it probably is to the janitorial staff, but you don't know that person, you don't know their story, you don't know what they're bringing into your life. And in my mind, both hold equal weight. And so, I challenge every student to go out there, to introduced themselves, to do something outside of what their ... to get uncomfortable. Kati:                 I thrive in uncomfort, because when you're too comfortable, you're not challenging yourself. Comfort serves as a blanket to you being capped off at your maximum. Efrain:             Yeah, definitely. Kati:                 And the education we get challenges us to not only be better for one another and be better to the worlds that we come from, but to be better together. And that part, sometimes it's easy to lose. I got my first internship at a crossroads from a guy at the alumni opposite office who I had talked to twice in my life. I had just happened to be complaining that I couldn't get an internship, and my next job was dependent on me getting this internship. And he was like, "Great, let me connect to you." Power of relationships. And it's not even like, hey, I'm going to get something from this person, it's like, hey, this person took the time to listen to me, they care, they're invested. Efrain:             Yeah. That's true. I think just in general, Holy Cross, I think as students, keeps us in this bubble that we're just always sober, protected from the world and all that stuff. I think it's not until you start to hear these stories that you started to think, there's a lot more out there than just Holy Cross, and then the people that you meet here and things just in general, you need to get out there. And like you said, I think that's a good way to say, just get uncomfortable, do something extra than you would normally do. I think that's definitely something that Holy Cross is good at in ways that .. Yeah, we do have our own community here, but what's next? Kati:                 Yeah. And I mean, ask more. It's more than a tagline, it's more than literally asking questions. It's asking more, it's asking beyond the surface. So, if you're applying it to a world scenario where you're in the workspace, it's like, before I can complete a task, I'm asking what the objective is. If you're applying it into a personal relationship scenario, you're asking more. If someone's like, "Hey, I'm good", but their face says differently, am I going to stop a moment there and really ask for more information, or am I going to do what's easy and bypass that, and now I'm maybe late to get coffee, or to catch the train, or to hit my meeting, or to ... I'm literally late to every meeting. It's horrible, truly, don't put this in the podcast because I might get fired, but they know this. I am late to every meeting because I invest full force. I am passionate with default. I like to ask questions, I like to know how people think, I like to know what that means, I like to know why they're thinking about it. Kati:                 And oftentimes, sometimes asking for more is seen as a negative or it's seen as asking for more in face value, and it's so much more than that. It became part of our identity right as I was graduating, but it really stayed with me because it was in my core. Efrain:             Yeah. So, how would that translate to the asking more part? How would you say that translates into ... or just in general, that topic, how would that translate into the real world? I think you understand here at Holy Cross, you just dive in general, but when you're in that professional setting, how do you consider using that? Kati:                 Absolutely. I mean, one thing for me, and I try to apply it in all of my relationships that I work in personally, I don't ever start tackling a problem or a strategy out of surely what's in my brain. I am asking questions to those around me that are either above me, below me, that are my counterparts, because I need to understand what does this mean in terms of your bandwidth? How is taxing your work load, how is it going to impact if this timeline gets shifted? What's the ripple effect of me having this great idea? So from a work perspective, that's just one scenario. Asking more in terms of a workspace from a relationship standpoint, it's like, work gets hard. You spend more time there than you do in your own house, and that's the reality that all of us are walking into. And how depressing is it, if you go to work and no one even asks you how you're genuinely doing? No one has any interest in how your kids are doing. If you're sick, no one has interest in doing this? Kati:                 I like to always joke that I'm not above any job, and I really truly think that because in my mind asking more, is like ... One of my employees this week came up to me was like, "Hey, my dad has prostate cancer, and I still want to be here and support the team." And in that moment it's like, I've asked you how you're doing., you've given me that information, now what do you do with it? What do you do with that information? And for me at that point, it's like, great, see you need to feel it, I'm going to support you, you're going to go take leave. I'm going to step in and do the edit, and that's still my job. And I had already worked a 16 hour day, but that is my to support you, to care for you, to ask, because when you ask, it's that part of, you're asking but you're meeting the need as well. So, that's when asked more and all the other things you've learned at Holy Cross are working together, at Holy Cross and in your household. Efrain:             Yeah. And I think that goes beyond the vision statement of Holy Cross. We have asked more and do more, so I think it goes beyond just the asking part, but actually doing something for- Kati:                 It's great to ask questions, what do you do with them? Like if you ask people a bunch of questions about how women's rights may impact X, Y, and Z, and then you're like, okay, great, thank you so much, and you go about your business, that is the worst thing you could do, that's the biggest disservice because now you know better and you're not doing better. We're not doing better. I think that's my biggest thing, I not only challenge my bosses and my superiors, I not only challenge those around me, my family, my significant other, to not only ask, but to do more. Because ultimately, that's the only way that we can make meaningful change in all areas of our lives. Right? Efrain:             Yeah. It's awesome. I love it. What has been the most satisfying or rewarding moment in your work space? Kati:                 Can I answer this question badly? I don't know. Is there a right or wrong answer? Let me tell you why I struggle with that. Efrain:             Okay. Kati:                 I struggle with that question simply because I don't find joy in accolades, and it's so counterintuitive to what we're trained to think. And so when you say, what's been my greatest, probably experience in any workspace is ... this is going to be so depressing, but here goes nothing. It was probably four months ago when I was moving from Los Angeles to New York, and my two best friends at Hulu were helping me pack my apartment, and in that moment and in this moment, I want to cry just thinking about it, because work had brought me to this place where I had amazing friendships, so I had great girlfriends, I had people that were invested in me so much so that they were pushing me to a place of uncomfort. I'm actually crying about it because it gave me so much joy to know that work is beyond that. And listen, that's not to say that winning 30 for 30, that being top of my class, that getting my master's degree, that succeeding, being a director at a young age does not make me feel joy, but that's surface joy. Kati:                 Having people that you know are in your life for life, who are invested in you as people, as a person, and who are invested in your success to the point where they're willing to be sad in a moment, but understand the joy in it as well. Efrain:             Yeah. I think in my perspective as a mentee, I think I look up to you a lot because of everything that you've gone through from DR to coming here, and then from here, just going out there to the other side of the country in LA, and then just everything that you have done, and then now transitioning back to this, after getting used to a lifestyle in the West coast, which I'm familiar with because I'm from LA. But I think just looking at you from that perspective, that role model, and I think I take a lot from you and the work that you do. I'm not sure how not rewarding, satisfying, but in that end, from what I do, I think I try to go about my life and my professional life, the way that you tackle your own stuff, and I think that's definitely something to take away from you. I hope, just saying it directly, I don't think I have directly said it before, but I definitely thank you a lot for everything that you do, all the advice you give me, and especially just in moments that I thought that I was just going through a lot of stuff just in my head. Efrain:             I probably never said anything, but just me in general, I was like, okay, I needed to hear that, or I needed to talk to someone, and you're always there without realizing it. I think that's definitely pushed me into that next step that we're talking about. Kati:                 Well, nothing brings me more joy than that, truly. Because I think you're an amazing person, I think that you tackle everything with so much love and grace, and I learned so much from you. And that's really important to me and it's valuable to me, and I really value the relationship we've built with our connections to Holy Cross, because we both have these weird stories that come together in a place that's different, that's beyond the norm, and I'm so proud of you, and I know that you're just going to do so many amazing things, and you already do them on this campus day in and day out. I've seen you do them, I've heard about you doing them, I've read about you doing them, and that's honoring to me. Efrain:             Yeah. No, I appreciate that. I think now it's my duty, I want to continue that change with you. Brian was your mentor, and he was a huge part of your transition, or just your whole life, and then you're a big part of my life, and I think I want to be that person for Holy Cross, or just any ... could be one, could be multiple. But I think it's that sense of that ... Going back to what we were talking about, those connections, those alumni connections. I've talked to your mentor Brian, and I think I want to be that person for Holy Cross, for students that are aspiring to go into the media world. And at Holy Cross, we have no- Kati:                 Media world. Sorry. Efrain:             But just be that person for a Holy Cross student, and just continuing that chain. I think we've built something really great here, and I think I want to continue that, and I'm hoping we can work together. Kati:                 Absolutely. I mean, it would be my absolute honor to hire you. I'm putting that on paper so we can make sure Brian gives me the headcount. Sends this podcast right to him right after we're done filming. Just send it to him so that he knows now we have to give you a job. But truly, I think it's extremely admirable that you are choosing to take a route that's very inconvenient, unconvenient and different, right? Because it's not like you're going to have to apply to 5,000 jobs, maybe three people will get you back because it's such a saturated industry, and there's the capital that is in Los Angeles, and so that takes a lot of courage. And to see that in you, I feel like it's my mission to bring it out of other students as well, and not even if it's communications, if communication is now your thing, great. I did not think it was my thing personally, I think it chose me, and thankfully it did really quickly, so I wouldn't have to look through 5,000 jobs to figure it out. Kati:                 But I encourage people to go after unconventional jobs, to go after the jobs that don't look as attractive on paper, to go after the things that really does spark joy in their life, in their soul, that makes them better, that makes them want to change, that makes them inspired, that makes them a better person, because we need happier people in the world. And happy people are people that are fulfilled, people that have purpose, people that have meaning, people that have a real sense of joy and comfort and understanding their placement in the world. And that doesn't always look like a really attractive package, which is really hard. Because after you open up 13 boxes, you might open 500 boxes, you may go through a bunch of paper, you may go through a bunch of disaster, you may go through a bunch of learnings and lessons. In the end of it, is that gift that's for you. And sometimes we don't find it because it's too hard, it's too many papers, there's too many boxes, there's too many lessons, there's too many learnings, I'm tired, I don't want to do this anymore, I give up, the world is conspiring against me. Kati:                 We are empowered people, we are people with great education, we're people with great ethics, we're people with great understanding of how the world's works. And so, what we do with that is ultimately on us. Efrain:             Yeah. That's great. I mean, you talked about this a little as well. Kati:                 I talk a lot, I'm sorry. Efrain:             No, no, it's all good. Kati:                 There'll be a full bloops part of this podcast, that's just me going off on tangents that completely are inappropriate, and it's fine. Efrain:             There's some great stuff. There's some great stuff. As you we're talking just sharing your knowledge, I think I just go back to my time at Holy Cross, and then just going back from like ... I think if a student hears this, either it's a first year student, sophomore or junior, senior, I think they're in a part in their life that they can connect to it. If it's a first year student, I think it will get them to think, okay, I'm just starting this journey, so what can I do to find those? And then if it's a senior student who's like, I'm pretty much almost out of here, okay, now I need to relax and see where things are going. So, I think everything that you said fits into every year at Holy Cross, every student at Holy Cross, and I think they can take a lot from it. Kati:                 I'm glad. Efrain:             Yeah, definitely. Again, just going back on my time here, I think here, every year, you can take a lot of different stuff from here. Kati:                 Well, listen, I think if I could leave this podcast with anything, it's just be your authentic self, and don't be afraid of what that means to the world, because there's only one you. And only you're crafted with that special potion and solution, and only you understand your gift, and doing the work to really dig into what that is from my young age, really does matter. And it makes a difference in the kind of person that you are in the world. The world is in a very fragile state right now, very fragile state. We have elections coming up, we have figures, both from an entertainment perspective, from a political perspective, from an educational perspective, everyone has an opinion. And if we don't understand how to craft our own through our core values, not through what we're being fed, that's a huge miss, because you're just one more. Efrain:             That's true. Yeah. What advice would you give a Holy Cross student? Kati:                 It's a great question, and it goes back to being new, but it also goes back into understanding what that means. I think sometimes we argue so much with ourselves because we want to conform, and conformity is the easy way out. It's almost like picking the career that's like, someone's hitting your job, it's like, hey you, go make $60,000. Don't go and apply to this, that would be easy, and sometimes that comforts our fears, which feels really good in the moment. You're like, okay, now I know I checked this off my list. Let's stop checking things off a list because that list is arbitrary. Who made the list? Who made it? I don't know. No one. It's like a thing that someone said, and then like, well, now we're doing. It's the same thing as weddings, you've won one wedding commercial, and it's the best marketing campaign I've ever seen. Sorry, my sister's getting married next year, she probably hates that I just said that, but it's true. It's like the best packaged dream. It's that, and that's the ripple effect of perceptions. Kati:                 So, don't go off any checklists, write your own. Freshman year, come in and be like, what does it mean for me to be here for the next four years? Let's stop thinking about, I'm just working to get a great job, and be a great little door. We need less doors, there's plenty of people that can do. We need more thoughtful thinkers, that's really why we're here. So freshman year is like, what are you coming in to do? What do you want to gain out of, not only this semester, but this year? Let's take it in small pieces, let's stop thinking four years from now, and I have to get a good job to please mom and dad, and to please myself and my social media account because all 500 of my followers want me to be successful. What does that really mean for you? Is it going on the immersion trips and maybe not going to Puerto Rico with your friends to vacation? Is it volunteering once a week? Is it maybe just joining different clubs? Kati:                 Is it maybe your white suit, and you're in Atlanta, because you want to know more, and you're interested in maybe working with students five years from now, and that understanding is crucial too because these are your peers and their thoughts matter to you, and their understanding and they were thinking you want to understand. So, what are those things? I encourage everyone to create their own checklist, not to take the arbitrary one that lives Lord knows where, because if I found it, I would rip it up and create our own. That's step one. Step two then is being okay with doing the work. I think sometimes we do so much work with no clear objective. Just like I don't start campaigns without knowing the purpose, I don't start anything else in my personal life without really understanding, why is it that I feel compelled to do this? And sometimes God puts something in your spirit, and he will press you to do it and you don't know why, and then you just almost have to just carry through even though you're uncomfortable. Kati:                 And then as a senior, it's really understanding, I'm stepping into the world, and as long as my heart posture is aligned, the world will deliver to me what I deserve and what I put in the work for. No one can take the job that's meant for you, no one can be Efrain. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't be you. So, those competitive natures, those perceptions that are out there, they don't really exist because no one can be you. And as long as you stay true to that, the world will make it happen. Efrain:             Yes, that's great. Students don't know this, they need to hear this. Our students need to hear this. Now going a little more specifically, what advice would you give to someone who is interested in pursuing a career in media? Kati:                 That's a really good question. I think anyone who's interested in pursuing a career in media needs to understand that it is not one of those things ... The media industry is changing as we speak. AR is part of your advertising now on Instagram, no one's watching television on cable as much anymore, there is a shift happening. Understand the media trends and understand that the scary stuff is where the world is heading to. Traditional television is changing, and right now that's amazing for people coming out of college specifically because that means you can literally make up your career, literally. It's crazy. You kids, if you can hear me, you can literally make up your own career, especially in media. If you want to get a word out that, this is your brand or you want to work on brand management, start working on your own personal brand. What does that brand look on social media? Let me go build my own website, let me go do these things. You don't need a big corporation to give you those skills. That is nice for sure, because then you can mess up on other people's money. That is always great. Let me tell you. Sorry, ESPN. Kati:                 But it also means that you can still do it on your own, and you could do it now. You don't have to wait to enter the media world in order to do media or to be good at media. If you like making videos, iPhone 11 has a great camera, iPhone 7s have great cameras. Even my grandma has an iPhone 7 at this rate, so it's like, get your iPhone 7, you live on a perfect till, start shooting videos with your friends, put them on Tik Tok. If that's what kids are using, I don't know. I am not cool enough to on Tik Tok as you could clearly tell from this podcast. But that's one thing I would tell students in media, all jokes aside, is that the world in the media landscape is changing exponentially, especially right now. So, those of us that are in it in the next five years are not going to be where we start, are not going to be where Brian and I started, or we even where Brian started before me. Kati:                 So, understand what is it in media that interests you? Is it advertising? Is it brand management? Is it television sports, whenever you see a commercial, it brings you joy? Great, let's explore it. Is it making actual video content? Talking to people, talk to people in the industry, cold call people, people love it when you call them. They want to talk about what they do all the time. I love talking about what I do. Who doesn't enjoy that? So call them, don't be afraid to ask, go shadow them because there are so many jobs out there. And there are so many, just even in media that people don't think about it. People normally think I want to be a producer, I want to be an actor, or I want to be a director, and there's more options there. So, explore what those options are, because there might be a kid in finance who may really be good at media, might be a great media buyer, that's a lot of numbers. That is way above my pay grade, way above my job. Kati:                 Truly, the moment people start talking budgets, I'm like da da da da da, someone go do this, not my thing at all. So, understanding what the options are within media is step number one, talking to people in that space, step number two. Then number three is simply doing it. Don't wait to do it, you don't need a job to do it. Go do it now, harness those skills so when you go into any interview, you talk to anybody, you can confidently do it. And guess what? Maybe along the way, you even build your own brand because your videos get so great that maybe now these brands are looking for you to replicate that on their platforms. That's the power of the way that the media industry is changing right now. Efrain:             Yeah, that's great. Is there anything that you would to add? I don't know, something specifically that you think you would want to share to ... I think we talked about some good stuff. Kati:                 Yeah. Efrain:             Got some good stuff out there. Kati:                 No, I think to leave this off, I would encourage everyone to just be a kind person. I think if there's anything to take away from this, be kind and do it now. You, literally got to do it over tomorrow. It's great. It's the easiest thing to do. Even if you failed at it today at one point, you can still do it tomorrow. You can do it in the next hour. Just be a kind person, be invested, ask questions. Don't be afraid to be yourself. I think that's pretty much it. Those are the things I try to live by. Efrain:             That's awesome. Yeah, that's perfectly. And then, I think right now, we're ready for the speed round. Kati:                 There's a speed round? Efrain:             Yeah. Ready for the speed round. Kati:                 Can I fill out this? I hate not being good at things so ... Efrain:             You'll be good. We can give it a shot. Kati:                 All right, let's do it. Efrain:             All right, cool. What was your favorite dorm? Kati:                 Carlin. Efrain:             Okay. Favorite meal on campus? Kati:                 I truly did not have one. It's sad. I worked a lot while I lived here, and I cook a lot. Efrain:             Or favorite- Kati:                 The pizzas are really good though from Crossroads. Efrain:             There you go. Kati:                 Those things customize your pizzas kids. But I'll tell you, having to cook for yourself every day is hard. Okay? Stop cooking. If you live in Figge, just use all your dollars. Don't cook, you have a whole lifetime literally to do that. Efrain:             I have a lot of dining dollars, I think this is like- Kati:                 Go spend that. Literally that's free money, it does not access outside the world of this. Efrain:             That's true. Yeah. No, I really need it. Or like, okay, listen. Favorite drink, like in Cool Beans. Kati:                 Oh man, my mom would be so mad if I don't say the chai tea latte because she was talking about it, and as I was driving here I was like, "Lady, you live in Florida. Why are you obsessed with chai tea lattes here? I don't understand." She's like, "Mail me one." "Ma'am, I'm confused. Mail you what exactly? Cool beans? Chai tea latte? The person that makes them? What are we doing? Efrain:             What are we... Kati:                 Yeah. Efrain:             Favorite class. Kati:                 Anything that Professor Beard teaches, I want in on. Efrain:             I think it got the next one then, favorite professor. Kati:                 Beard. Big time. Efrain:             Favorite memory. Kati:                 Living in Figge, I had a lot of fun, and I lived with my best friends in the world. It was great. Efrain:             Best part about being an HC alumni? Kati:                 Interacted with other HC alums in different cities. Even if you don't know them, you're automatically like, I have a friend in this random place, and then they'd go and meet up with you, and you're like, why did we never hang out in college? And maybe the world didn't align when we were here, but it totally did in the real world, and it's great. I love it so much. Efrain:             That was it. Kati:                 That's it. Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much for having me. Thank you for taking the time to chatting with me. Efrain:             Thank you for coming here and sharing your amazing time with us. Kati:                 Happy to, more than happy to. Maura:             That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be men and women for, and with others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you, or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission- Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, "now go forth and set the world on fire." --- Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

In the third of this three-part series, Maura Sweeney '07 speaks with Jim Cavanagh '13 about forging his own path from Holy Cross into the legal profession. Recorded September 11, 2019 --- Transcript Jim:                        I realized, wow. I think what I learned at Holy Cross and I talked about the excitement of being a history major and getting lost in the stacks at Dinand. You just learned the importance of being a learner and learning that if you think, and even though things are difficult, if you buckle down and read and try to learn, you will learn and then when you do learn and you do put in the work that you can contribute and you can and you can serve. Maura:                 Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, director of alumni career development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome to today's show.                                 In part three of this three part series, we speak with Jim Cavanagh. Jim graduated from Holy Cross in 2013 and Notre Dame law school in 2015. Despite being a fellow history major like his siblings, Mary and Joe, Jim decided to apply his Holy Cross education differently. We hear about Jim's decision to try out teaching theology before going to law school. Today Jim works as an associate at Jones day and talks about how his Holy Cross training has prepared him for the multidimensional work that he does. We wrap up by bringing the three of them back together for a speed round about their favorite memories from Holy Cross.                                 I'm excited now to turn to Jim, class of 2013, also a history major. You taught theology at Saint Sebastian school in Needham for two years before choosing to go to Notre Dame law where you graduated in 2018. You're an associate at Jones day doing something a little bit different, working across practice groups including business litigation, merger and acquisitions, banking and finance, tax credit transactions and pro bono work. You similarly take on pro bono work with the TGC Memorial fund and you've received your own slate of awards while at Notre Dame including the American law Institute CLE award for scholarship and leadership and the faculty award for excellence in civil procedure and health law, which, being recognized by faculty is really significant because I know that law school faculty seem to be some of the toughest out there. Jim:                        Right. Actually it's funny. So those awards are given based on your exam, which you're anonymous. You have a number. So I think on my civil procedure professor in particular, must've been like, “that kid won the award?” I think some of the questions I asked during my... That was my first classes I took in law school and I just remember asking a few questions, realizing, Oh, wow, I really don't know much, but that was a good... I mean, there's so many experiences in law school, but that was certainly a gratifying moment where I realized in that first semester I'd certainly come a long way. Maura:                 Right. Well and almost gives your professor the thought of, Oh wow, I shouldn't have underestimated this person. Jim:                        Right. And he never did anything to make me think that he was thought little of me at all. I just remember my own questions thinking, wow Jim, that was not a good question. Just these funny experiences. I think a lot of law students, a lot of anyone who's gone to law school certainly has these humbling moments, especially in their first year. So, that was a nice... When I realized I won that award, when it came out the highest exam score to me, I was pretty surprised myself. So yeah, that's a fun accolade to have. Maura:                 That's great. That's great. And I know you talked in preparation for this conversation about choosing to really forge your own career path separate from Mary and Joe, and so you described it as choosing the world of deals instead of the world of cases. Could you talk to me a little bit about that? Jim:                        Right. So think little... I certainly didn't know this when I was at Holy Cross and you don't even really understand it when you go to law school so much, but you really, once you get into practice, especially at a big law firm, you realize the different things lawyers do. Maura:                 Sure, right. Jim:                        And specifically there's a big divide, I mean, there's a divide between public interest work and private practice, but even just even in private practice, there's a big divide between transactional work and litigation. Litigation's, I think with the impression of everyone has a lawyer doing, what Joe and Mary do, where you go to court, you're representing a client in the lawsuit. And transactional work is you're helping a client complete a business deal so there's no judge involved. Right? You're not representing a plaintiff or defendant, you're representing, often it can be a seller or buyer or lender or borrower and so it's a completely different animal in a way. You're trying to complete the business deal. It's a collaborative... Even though there are negotiations since things, it's more of a quote when it's done well.                                 I think a collaborative exercise with the other parties counsel trying to get this deal done and in law school, even though you can learn about transactional work, there are courses on corporations and merchandise acquisitions, corporate finance. It's always in the litigation context. When years after this deal ended, it fell apart and everyone's suing each other. And what do the contracts say? What are our indemnities? So it's just a whole different world. So, it's like I said, when I interned with Jones Day after my second year of law school, it was my first exposure to wow, there's this whole other side to the legal profession that I know very little about, certainly. I mean, my dad being a litigator and Joe and Mary being litigators, civil litigators. And so I remember being overwhelmed and at first reluctant to try it. But my first year at Jones Day, it's neat, they don't give you an offer into a practice group. They say they give you a year to essentially be a free agent and work across practice groups. Maura:                 That's fantastic. Jim:                        And it's a lot, it's been great. It's difficult in a sense. There's a learning curve with almost every project. Maura:                 Sure. Jim:                        Because it's with different people, it's a different practice. So with that you move from practice to practice, so you're always learning again. So, even after eight months it's only then you start to maybe get a second project with one group and you can take everything you learned from your first product, first deal or case. And so for me, it was a very discern slowly that I learned that at Holy Cross and it certainly was a slow discernment process for me because I always imagined that I wanted to be a litigator, I wanted to be a trial lawyer.                                 And I don't know just getting out into practice even though it hasn't been so long, you see very much the practice of law is way more than the theory you learn in school where you're talking about cases in the abstract and reading appellate opinions. There's a human side of law that I think, law schools have gotten better about it now. There are a lot of internship, externship opportunities and clinical practice things... Clinical courses you can take, but more or less it's theory and then you get out and practice and you see the human side of it. Which I think is really what most of lawyer... Joe and Mary can speak to this better than me, but lawyers really spend most of their time doing client management, interacting with opposing counsel. And I don't know, for me, I was lawyered into transactional work.                                 One thing about it is, the reality is, it's quicker. Deals are shorter than a case. A case, a lawsuit, I know Joe and Mary can say this can last for years. A deal, the ones I've worked on, I know their deals, I can get stressed out maybe for a while, but they usually take a few months at most from the ones I worked on. So it's fun because there's a start and an end and it's also really intense and you're trying to get it done. But I've just found it's really exciting because you're working, the end result is something exciting. A business is getting bought, a business is growing. And I think it's really fun to prospectively make your client aware of problems or where I think litigators jump in and crisis mode where like I said, a business deal has fallen apart or something, a conflict has arisen in a person's life or in the client's life if their corporation and you're there to really guide them through that disaster, which is incredible profession.                                 And I know there's so many people who do that well, but I thought it was really appealing to work on the prospective side where you look at a deal, you look at the transaction your client's trying to complete it and you say, well, here's some things you need to think about. Because I know we wouldn't like to think that this transaction would fall apart, but if it did, you have to be mindful that you have a lot of exposure here if we don't take this step. And I think that's a real skill to have the foresight to identify the issues that can be an issue. Trying to communicate those to your client without scaring them, without getting them overwhelmed with the hypothetical, which might not happen, but also forcing them to be realistic and to think beyond the moment where you sign this deal and you have to go forward with whatever you've agreed to buy, agreed to sell, or agree to invest in.                                 And now, so it's been fun. So like I said, I discerned slowly. So I think I'm about a year in, so I have to choose a practice group. So, that's coming in the next few weeks. So, it's not going to be a litigation group. It's most likely going to be... it's going to be a transactional group. So, that's a long winded answer, but I hope I described a little bit about my encounter with learning about the other side of law. Maura:                 Well, and it seems like discernment has been something that you've really carried from Holy Cross because you didn't jump into a lot right away. And you did take a step and you taught for a few years. So talk to me a little bit about that decision to really take another step before jumping in. Jim:                        Right. Well, I couldn't have told you I started... I graduated in 13. My last day of school at Holy Cross was... Graduation was probably around May 20th and then September 1st, I was the teacher. I think I got a haircut, bought a tie and all of a sudden I was Mr. Cavanagh, teaching a class of seventh and eighth graders. And it was quite a transition.                                 And I don't think I could have told you in January of 2013 that I would be... if you told me I was teaching the next year, I would have said really? I don't think that's going to happen. So, even though I did say discern slowly that certainly happened quickly, looking back at the grand scheme of my life and just to tell you how it happened. So, I always knew I wanted to go law school. I think even though in the last few years, I think my career is going to be very different than what I imagined it would be just from growing up in our family. And our dad was a litigator and he always had... I always loved talking to him about his job and different things about his cases and I thought it was very appealing and it was just very appealing to me.                                 So, I always wanted to go, but I just knew I wasn't ready. It was always, even as a senior in college, I thought, I want to do that, but I just knew I didn't want to go right away. And I remember, I had really had no idea what I wanted to do. I think I had applied to some Fulbright scholarship, a Fulbright scholarship with Tony Cashman had helped me apply and so I was waiting on that, but I didn't really know what else. And I remember studying for finals in December. December, 2012 the first semester of my senior year, and there was an email that got shot out from the career services office and it was for internships at a prep schools and it didn't apply to me. It was a applied to rising juniors, rising seniors where you could intern at a summer camp, I forget the... Some New England prep schools and I thought just, I went to an all boy Catholic school and Rhode Island and it was big.                                 It was about a thousand boys. Some of my brothers had gone to a prep school and I just knew that it's a very small community. They all had very good experiences and played sports. And I also just was familiar with the model where you know, the teachers, they teach in their small classroom size and then your teachers are also your coaches. And the teachers are really a part of the community, especially at those schools. And I don't know, just an image of me teaching and then coaching, like hockey. I liked, I didn't play hockey here, but I love hockey and I just thought, wow, wouldn't that be a lot of fun? But I kind of dismissed it thinking I couldn't do that. I've never thought of doing that. And then I was home, it was around Christmas and my sister and I, not Mary or our sister Carol, who's also a lawyer. She started to cross examine me about what I was going to do. Maura:                 That's what the holidays are good for. Jim:                        Right. Exactly. What are you going to do? You're a senior, the clocks ticking. Do you have a plan? And I don't know. Well I just didn't want to say, I didn't have anything. I said, well, I've thought about teaching. And she said, Oh wow. And she said, where? I was like, maybe a prep school, I don't know, just from that one thought. And she put me in touch with a guy who was an alum here. He's works at CM now, guy Mike Schell. And he's just a wonderful guy. And he was a student here and had done the same thing, went right to teaching in a prep school. And so I had the long break and he was a friend of my sisters. So I gave him a call and just talked to him about what I was interested in.                                 I said, I really haven't thought about this much, but it excites me. The idea of teaching. I think it'd be fun. And I know it would be challenging and everything. And he said no. And I think he identified with what I was feeling as a senior in college and he was my guy to applying to different prep schools around that might be open to hiring a kid right out of college. He wasn't an education major, no prior teaching experience. So I interviewed at some places, made it to the final rounds and nothing was happening. But then I got an email from him that his school where he taught was looking for a new religion teacher, at St Sebastian's. So I went and I interviewed and I met the headmaster Bill Burke, who's a wonderful guy and the assistant, who was a Holy Cross alum.                                 And I just spent a day at the school and right away fell in love with it and one of my good friends from college Luke Sullivan, went to St. Sebs and I knew he loved his high school and I immediately thought, wow, this is a place I could picture myself. And sure enough they thought they could picture me there too. So it was great. I had an offer and I had a job. Spring semester, senior year. So I started that and I know... so that's how I ended up there and that was just an incredible experience and I just loved every minute of being there and it was kind of funny. It was one of those things where a year, December, 2013 I was coaching the JV hockey team, I had taught a full day class, was at the rink and just having fun. I thought, this is funny. A year ago I pictured myself doing this and didn't think it... And really laughed at it. I'm actually here doing it. So, that was great. Maura:                 It's sometimes hard to believe that work can also be fun. Jim:                        Right? Maura:                 Like I can get paid to do this. Jim:                        And that was, I remember that too, right, being at hockey practice coaching a game. And I'm thinking, I guess I'm at work right now, which is pretty cool. And actually it's funny I mentioned to you, I did some work this morning and cool beans and a bunch of students I taught who were in seventh and eighth grade are actually now here as students. And I was hoping maybe I could scare one of them. Like, Hey, like I used to do or just see one of them. And so, yeah, it was a great experience. Maura:                 Yeah, that's fantastic. I also read that you did an internship at the US attorney's office. Jim:                        Yes. Maura:                 Along your path of figuring out what you want to do. I'd love to hear a little bit about how that's informed your work. Jim:                        Right? So it was after my first year of law school. After your first year of law school is interesting because it's really a year in the books. You're learning law and the abstract and like I mentioned this earlier, you really know very little about the practice of lot itself, but you've learned a lot of legal theory and about the substantive bodies of law. So, as a first year law student, they're not too many options to intern because no one's really willing to pay you to do anything. But it's a great opportunity to work for a government agency that might have unpaid internships and have a program where you can come in and they'll give you some assignments and you'll get to see a lot of action. Maura:                 Right. Jim:                        Because I mean US attorney's office is interesting experience because they're federal prosecutors, so they're in court all the time. So, I spent a lot of time that summer, just really, I mean, more so than the work I did, just sitting in court watching... I got to watch a full jury criminal jury trial. I got to watch sentencings, plea agreements and also did some research and stuff to help an attorney. I remember that was fun doing some research and an attorney was taking it with him to argue it for the judge. I hope it went well, but one thing, so I do something very different now, right? I'm in private practice, transactional work, but it's something to see the criminal justice system at work, is I think just something as a citizen, as a lawyer especially, is worth witnessing and knowing something about, because I mean so much, sadly, a lot of people... I think Mary spoke to it earlier when she said, we have an incredible legal system in the United States and so often, right?                                 We just take it for granted, especially if you're from here and having lived in a different part of the world with a different legal system. But a lot of people unfortunately, right, like one of the times they really realize that they are part of a society governed by laws is if they have an encounter with the criminal justice system. If they find themselves charged with something. And so just knowing how that works and kind of just, I think any, every lawyer has an obligation to know a little bit about it. And also seeing it... I also, you understand that it's, for the system to work well, it takes a good lawyers, both good judges, good prosecutors, good defendants and good law clerks who help the judge and do research for the judge. And I think just that summer broadened me to realize that this system has worked and it's working every day. There are a million cases before these judges, these judges are working hard, these lawyers are working hard.                                 And I think it really, if anything just as a first year law student just makes you more aware of how important the criminal justice system is, that the people in it do a good job, the people in it are committed and act ethically. And also too that, just as a lawyer, you should know something about this because you might, before you know it, now you're a lawyer, right? So someone years down the road, hopefully I think all the guys I met here, upstanding citizens, but if they found themselves in trouble. You might get a phone call, might be helpful to know a little bit something about it, but so it was a good experience. Maura:                 That's fantastic. And how has the Holy Cross's mission influenced your life? Jim:                        Right. The Holy Cross mission for me, like I said, discern slowly and I think if you show up on campus, you're 18 it's really your first time away from home. Even though home is only 45 minutes away in Rhode Island. And I think of, just in four years you've come a long way or you should. And I think certainly Holy Cross and I think Mary and Joe harped on this in their experiences that, you do mature quite a bit in college. Just, I mean, you're 18 when you arrive, you're 22 when you graduate. So I think, I do remember it just being here and I like to think that my awareness of being mission driven grew and the whole Jesuit philosophy to be, men and women for others. And the idea that you should always be mindful of the questions of who is God, who is God calling me to be, and who is God calling me to be for others. And I think just as I went through my time here, I became more and more aware of that and I took more advantage of the opportunities Holy Cross offered to discern what God is calling you to do.                                 I went on the spiritual exercises. Actually the winter of my senior year, it was right around the time this whole teaching decision happened. And I remember I'd actually just found out I didn't get my Fulbright and I really was out of... I didn't know what I was going to do. I knew I had this idea about teaching and I just remember going on the exercises and thinking, okay, this is the time for your discernment. And really the only thing I discerned was all you can do is just respond to whatever's happening in front of you to treat the people around you with love and try to do the next right thing. To try to give your full attention to the task in front of you because that's God's plan for you that day. The people and the circumstances, he places in front of you.                                 And I remember I read a book by a Jesuit, during my experience on that retreat and that was kind of... and my mom just gave it to me before I went and it was really, I think all for a purpose. And I remember so, so when I say, how's that affects how Holy Cross drives my mission. Now, it's interesting, right? Because again, this has been a big transition year for me. I just graduated from law school, I moved back to the East coast and I've been working across practice groups and with that it's been a little chaotic. At times you feel overwhelmed and it always comes back to, what does God want me to do in this circumstance with these people I'm dealing with? And I think a lot of it just stems from the academic experience here that you should do your work well. Right.                                 That we all have gifts. That part of being men, women for others is giving the best of yourself to task. So even if it's the most monotonous, tedious task on this deal that you're asked to do as a junior associate, you're called to do that to the best of your ability. And so right now I'd say it drives my mission because you want to serve others. But it also just made me really aware of the way you serve others is by serving who's in front of you. And I've found that just to keep your sanity in a chaotic year, practicing law and to find God in it, is you really have to stay in the moment and do your best with what you have in front of you. Maura:                 Well and that probably ties in, you know my next question of this, is about your personal mission and I'm sure it's tied into that. So I guess, how have you taken that and really created your own mission? Jim:                        Right. So right now, I think my mission is really just to become confident in what you're doing. And I remember showing up at Holy Cross and being a history major and really realizing I don't write well. And so much, I mean, this is, I think just an example of Holy Cross and how the professors were great, but they were honest and blunt and said, your writing's weak. You need to get better. And I remember it took so long to get better. It took draft after draft. And I remember taking different courses and visiting professors at office hours who were always willing to help. But I remember getting over the hump, and I'm not going to say I'm a great writer, but I'm going to say that I'm certainly a better writer than I was when I started here. Mary:                    I guess your Civil Procedure professor thought you were pretty good. Jim:                        A good part of it was multiple choice.                                 And I think, so right now, what drives me is getting better and gaining in competencies because I've learned that law is extremely complicated and it's a bit daunting when you realize there's so much I don't know. But the thing is you can just keep at it and as you grow in competencies, it gives you more opportunities to serve others. Right. Because I don't know where I'll end up in my career. I mean, Joe and Mary, they graduated from law school a few years before me, so I'm not exactly sure where everything's going. But that's certainly driving me right now. How can I be, utilize my gifts, develop them the most I can. So I can serve others the way God calls me to. Maura:                 That's wonderful.                                 And think back to when you were a student and you've talked about it a little bit, you don't have to think back as far. What stands out to you about your experience on campus and how has it really prepared you for some of the challenges that you've faced? Jim:                        Right. I mentioned it in my previous answer, but certainly I found as a history major, that you certainly had the opportunity to become a better student. You had the opportunity to really develop your critical thinking because of professors who cared, professors who pushed you and professors who are really passionate about what they taught. I can think of so many examples. I think of my first class I took with Stephanie Yuhl, it was my Montserrat class, I believe they still have the Montserrat program and I wasn't just a history major because Carol, I mean, because of Mary and Joe were, but I mean certainly that helped and I thought I would be interested, but I remember taking this class on World War II and Vietnam and thinking it would just be a military history class, but with professor Yuhl it was very different. It was really about the memory of those wars and how we as a society now choose to memorialize them and what narratives get told and whose narrative get told and who are the stakeholders.                                 And you realize that there just so many layers that complicate these issues. And it just really opened my eyes to what a complex world we have and the need to be aware of that and the need to be a voice in the conversation. So with that, it helps if you can analyze, it helps if you can critically think and it helps if you can write well. And so I think to my experience at Holy Cross, it was certainly one where I grew quite a bit and I remember after that experience in class thinking, wow, I think I want to be a history major and I chose to be a history major. And then I just taking other courses with Gwen Miller, with Father K and having these moments where you're looking at correspondence from members of Congress, looking at the writings of the Jesuits in their encounter with native Americans hundreds of years ago.                                 And you really get into the primary sources. And what was the experience of this person? What are they saying about it? And I just remember it was a neat experience to have your interest inflamed in so many... In an area of study. And I think that helps for anyone who's a student here and you go to law school because of lot of... Even if you took some time off... like I didn't take time or you did something different before going to law school, you have the muscle memory of what it takes to be a serious student, to be a critical thinker, to analyze a document, to analyze someone's writings and to write well. And I think, so certainly when I think back, especially after going to law school, I think those experiences at Holy Cross certainly prepared me. Maura:                 Right. And even just the practice of learning someone else's perspective through that analysis must be so valuable. Jim:                        Oh certainly. I'm not a litigator, but I mean, so much of the study of law is right? There are two sides of the case and there's a different way and you read two different briefs that are written about the same... Based off the same facts. They can try to tell such a different story. I think Joe and Mary can probably speak to that with more detail and with more experience than I can. So always being mindful of what is the other narrative? What narrative am I overlooking? And you see that too, just applying it and you can always apply that in whatever you're doing, in transactional work negotiations. What does the other side want out of this deal? Why would they care about this?                                 And when you do that and you have a sense of where someone else is coming from, it just makes for more beneficial dialogue. And then in a pragmatic sense, it's way better for your clients, way more efficient, if the lawyers aren't talking past each other. If you're really listening and appreciating and understanding that one issue that you might be raising is important to them and you might, based on your client's position, it doesn't really matter to you, it matters to them. So taking the time to dialogue with them and then it just gives you more credit going forward. When you have something you want to talk about. So, yeah, certainly very valuable. Maura:                 Fantastic. And so this you've probably touched on also, about how your Holy Cross education influence the way that you practice law. Jim:                        Right. I guess, one thing is to just be willing to put in the work to... It's tough, especially in law because you bill per hour and you're very busy and so it's important to learn efficiency, but it's also important to do your work well. Because that's serving your client... To really... You get a long complicated contract, really sitting down and analyzing it and digging in, getting into the weeds on things. I mean, it takes some judgment. You don't want to spin your tires too much on things. And that comes, I think with time, knowing what issues to look for, what things aren't important. But really I think Holy Cross really taught me from the get go.                                 As I started the path that led me to law school and I knew the practice of law, that you really just need a great attention to detail. That you really have to take pride in your work and do it well. Because it certainly becomes a habit and I can see, actually it's interesting, I feel like law school in a way is a moment, it's the culmination of you putting into practice all the skills you've learned as a student. Because in law school, especially the first year, you only have one exam, per class, per semester. There was no study guide or anything. So it was really on you to be organized, to make sure that you're listening, to make sure that you've developed critical thinking skills to be identify what's important in your course. And then, you put that, then you write an exam and hopefully you had the right skills.                                 And then law school prepares you for law because it's really that practice. It's really just the same practice that I started here at Holy Cross of having attention to detail. Putting in the work to analyze, to read, to think and if you've been doing that for a long time, you know that's how you have to do it. You have to put in the work, but also too, you're just better at it. So certainly, I think, that's how Holy Cross is carried into my practice of law. But you still got to do it. You still got to break a sweat always. But I learned that a long time ago, I think. Maura:                 Yeah. Yeah. Oh good. What has been the most satisfying or rewarding moment for you in your work so far? Jim:                        That's a good question. A recent experience actually and I think it's great because it touches on something that I learned here at Holy Cross and I credit Holy Cross are helping me have this experience. Like I said, I'm not going to be a litigator, but for about six months this year I did quite a bit of litigation work. And I remember on the first day I got to my office, there was this big stack of briefings on my desk and I had an email that I was being put on part of this case team in this massive lawsuit that had been going on for a long time. And my job was to help prepare for depositions. And depositions, right, are pretty much just having a witness testify outside of court where a lawyer, it's not in court, but lawyers go and one lawyer questions a witness and the other lawyer defends the witness and it helps you build a record of the case and just different facts and going forward.                                 And so I had prepared for the... Helped partners in my law firm and other associates prepare for these depositions. And a lot of that is grunt work. There's so many doc... These two major institutions are suing each other. So they're just a lot of documents. So you spend a lot of time reading documents, it's a lot of grunt work and you have to pull ones you think are relevant, things that will come up in this deposition. And I remember being just overwhelmed by the case when I first got there because it was very complicated matter and we were thinking, how will I ever understand this much less be ready to look at hundreds, maybe thousands of documents and be able to identify ones which could be problematic or worth asking a witness about. And I remember in June I went to New York with the partner in the deposition for this case.                                 And I remember he had asked me for the months leading up to it, just different questions about different documents that had come up in this case. And I would read them, analyze them and shoot them off in email and everything and I remember we were preparing for the deposition and we finally started the deposition and it was the first one I actually attended and it was just a neat moment for me because when I realized I was part of a team. I was part of this litigation team and I was there on the record at the deposition on behalf of a client and also too, I remembered this case was so complicated but the deposition lasted eight hours and this was a very important witness and I realized I knew everything about the case or there was a lot I still didn't know, but I knew so much that I was with it for the seven, eight hours we were there.                                 Every question, I knew why it mattered, I knew why we were asking it. And also it was rewarding... I helped prepare the outline, seeing documents that I was asked to look at a few weeks ago and I didn't even really, just because the partner is busy, I hadn't received much feedback, some questions, points I had raised come up in the questions. So it was a rewarding moment because I realized, wow, I think what I learned at Holy Cross and I talked about the excitement of being a history major and getting lost in the stacks at Dinand and you just learned the importance of being a learner and learning that if you think, and even though things are difficult, if you buckle down and read and try to learn, you will learn. And then when you do learn and you do put in the work that you can contribute and you can serve.                                 And so I felt, even though I don't want to be a litigator, that was a great moment for me. So, I'd say, just like I said, you got to break a sweat. Probably Holy Cross taught you that. I think I did that for six months, leading up to that deposition. I felt like a rewarding moment for me. Maura:                 Yeah. Well, given what you know now, what advice do you have for someone who's interested in pursuing law? Jim:                        Right. This is certainly, I think, I know you asked Joe and Mary this question, but certainly for me, being right out of law school, I think it's certain... I had to consider, I mean, I had the discern law school in more recent time than they did and I'd say, one I've been really blown away by just, like I said, especially going to my firm, all the different opportunities that are for lawyers. So, if you're a science person, there are opportunities for in law in life and health sciences, in intellectual property if you're interested. If you're, I mean, people were passionate about civil rights and passionate and about equality injustice. There are obviously major opportunities especially in public interest in government.                                 And so one, I'd say, don't think you're pigeonholing yourself by going to law school because there are a lot of different ways you can go. But also too, it is an incredible investment of time, energy, and also money too. So, law school can be very expensive. I think it's very much worth it if you're going to be a serious student there and take the time to learn. And I think of how I grew in three years of law school. And so, I'd say certainly think about it, pray about it, discern it, but also too know, I'd say talk to as many lawyers as you can because there's so many different experiences and it's actually funny for me, because I realized when I showed up at law school, even though I had three siblings who were lawyers and a father whose lawyer, I knew so little about what law school would be like, but going through it and I thought that was really funny for a person who had always wanted to go, but I realized I was really happy that I went.                                 So that was my experience, but certainly I'd say take the time before you invest, but also know I'm an optimist and I'm a promoter of it, thinking there's a lot you can do with it. Maura:                 Fantastic. Fantastic.                                 Well now to wrap things up, I have a series of speed round questions. Quick questions, quick answers. And for this I'll ask the question and then go around and hear everyone's answer. So are you ready to tackle it? Yeah. Okay.                                 What was your favorite dorm? Joe:                        Lehy Maura:                 Joe. Yep. Mary? Mary:                    Mulledy Jim:                        Hanselman. Maura:                 Fantastic. Favorite meal on campus or favorite Cool Beans order, Joe? Joe:                        Omelets, made to order with waffles at Kimball on weekend mornings only. Maura:                 Mary? Mary:                    Pizza from the pizza kitchen. Maura:                 Fantastic. And Jim? Jim:                        Chicken parm night, definitely. Maura:                 Very nice. Very nice. Favorite class? Joe? Joe:                        Contemporary Christian Morality with Father Linnane. Maura:                 Mary? Mary:                    Law and Human Rights in China with professor Karen Turner. Maura:                 Fantastic. Jim? Jim:                        Understanding Mary with Father Gavin. Maura:                 Wonderful. Favorite professor, Joe? Joe:                        Father Linnane. Father Kuzniewski. Maura:                 Mary? Mary:                    I guess. Professor Turner. Maura:                 Great. Jim? Jim:                        Professor Yuhl, she was great. Maura:                 Favorite memory? Joe? Joe:                        Winning the Mac Hockey Championship my senior year. Maura:                 Not running down to Kimball and back? Joe:                        No, I blocked that one out. Maura:                 Great. Mary? Mary:                    The last few nights before graduation at the heart center. Maura:                 Jim? Jim:                        I will say, senior year going to the Cape with my friends, with all my friends I had gotten to know over the last four years. It was incredible. Maura:                 Great. And last question, best part about being a Holy Cross alum, Joe? Joe:                        The pride you take in the whole spirit of the school and being able to say that you're a part of that. Maura:                 Mary? Mary:                    I think just knowing you are part of such an excellent tradition and excellent institution. Something that you always have with you. Maura:                 Jim? Jim:                        In a similar way, remembering where you came from and remembering the mission you were taught here and how even though you can stray from it and it might not always feel present to you that I think just being here for four years, just being... I appreciate being ingrained with, we're supposed to be men and women for others. Maura:                 Fantastic. Wonderful and that's a wrap. Thank you.                                 That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be men and women for and with others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the office of alumni relations at the college of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, "now go forth and set the world on fire." --- Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

In part two of a three-part series, Maura Sweeney '07 interviews Joe Cavanagh '99 about how his Holy Cross experience influences the way he practices law. Recorded September 11, 2019 --- Transcript Joe:                        The idea of doing your best, your excellence for God, for others, for clients in what you do no matter what you're doing, wherever you are, personal sphere, professional sphere, other places and I take that directly from Holy Cross. Yeah. Maura:                 Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show.                                 In part two of the three part series, we speak with Joe Cavanagh. Joe graduated from Holy Cross in 1999 and Cornell Law School in 2003. Joe joined his father and sister at Bliss & Cavanagh and became partner in 2013. Joe speaks about the value of his time on campus and its impact on the way that he practices law. There are a few fun stories from his time on the Hill, too. Mary:                    So Joe, I'm excited to talk to you next, class of ‘99, History major. You went to Cornell Law School, graduated in 2003 are also a partner at Bliss & Cavanagh in Providence, Rhode Island. You work in general litigation with a focus on business and complex commercial employment, personal injury and real estate litigation. You also advise corporate and non-profit clients in the areas of pre-litigation strategy, employment, contracting, negotiation and compliance.                                 You also do pro bono work at the TGC Memorial Fund as well as the Board of Trustees at the Ocean Tides School. And as we've talked about, you also received Super Lawyer of the year in 2019 for Litigation within Real Estate and Best Lawyers in America in 2017. Top Litigation Attorney from Super Lawyers from 2013 to 2018, and Rising Star back in 2012 and that was a positive premonition because it proved true over the years. But I also noticed that you received a Martindale Hubbell Peer Rating for strong ethical standards, which really stood out to be, can you talk to me a little bit about that. Joe:                        Interesting that you mentioned that Maura I'm not sure I had focused on that aspect of my profile. The Martindale Hubbell Peer Rating. I've seen it before in looking up other lawyers in the directory, but didn't know that I had necessarily garnered an ethical rating there. So it was very nice to hear. Maura:                 Oh, well congratulations! Joe:                        Thank you. Maura:                 Yeah. Joe:                        So yeah, as Mary said, we have a collegial bar in Rhode Island. You have quite a bit of contact with your colleagues and other firms in the courthouse or by phone and at depositions and there's an understanding that we're part of a smaller community where people don't necessarily take cheap shots or do things with the mode or the thought that they won't see this practitioner again in their practice, which might happen in bigger cities. So in a way it replicates a smaller college community like at Holy Cross, and I think it makes for a better practice both within our firm and around the state and for the whole system, the court system, the clients that are served by it.                                 So, within that peer set, I would be thought of as having high ethical standards it's nice to hear and I would like to think that's partly due to my time at Holy Cross and the way that, my experiences I had here on campus in a similar type setting. I mean, from having been here, it is a small community, things that happen are known and word gets out quickly. Sometimes you can't believe how quickly, like Kimball before breakfast the next morning, so that element of sort of honesty and accountability within a community is one that you kind of learn and sometimes make mistakes in that regard in a small college setting like this.                                 And then to have those experiences and realize that we're all in this together and that things you say or do will have repercussions, to move that into your professional life now and I would like to think a peer voted award like that is a reflection of a recognition of that. Maura:                 That's fantastic. Right. And it's similar to what Mary and I talked about, just the incredible importance of being recognized by peers and just how significant that is. That's wonderful. Maura:                 Well, and I'd love to hear a bit more about your professional journey since you graduated from Holy Cross because I know I only captured some of the bookends. Joe:                        Sure. So after law school I went to a firm in Boston, a large firm in many cities, in international practice to Mintz Levin it was a great place to begin my career. I met many wonderful people there and there was a standard of excellence that I was exposed to and sort of reared in that I draw on every day my experiences from being in that setting. There were actually some Holy Cross alumni that were at the firm that I was thinking about driving up here today and had an event like this causes you to reflect in ways that you don't usually busy business of life.                                 But when I arrived at Mintz Levin, quickly, the Holy Cross alumni network was at work sort of informally. I think they probably had read resumes of people are arriving, new associates and went out of their way to reach out to me and Scott Ford was class of ‘89 here I think at Holy Cross. Matt Hurley was ‘88 and I'm still in touch with those lawyers, I believe they're both still partners at Mintz Levin and things like on a Friday afternoon we'd go... If Holy Cross was playing in the NCAA tournament, they ring me up, we're going out, we're going to get some lunch and we watched the game and things like that. So it was the Holy Cross community sort of taking form in the professional setting. Maura:                 Well, I mean it's what everyone says that no matter how, if you wanted to escape Holy Cross, you can't really, because you wear anything purple or people find out that you have a connection and whether they went to Holy Cross or their neighbor or their cousin or their friend, we have a way of finding each other, which I think is wonderful. In a new setting it helps you feel a lot more welcome. So on a Holy Cross note, how has Holy Cross's mission influenced your life? Joe:                        So, I had the question in mind as I was reading ahead of time here, and I was just thinking back to the spiritual exercises. I went on the spiritual exercises actually not as a Holy Cross student, it was the fall after I graduated. They made an exception, let me come back and do that. Maura:                 Oh wonderful. Joe:                        With sports on campus that it had never worked out and so I was still getting the full experience here even six, eight months after I graduated. And, again I mentioned the community element of it, but the idea that you would incorporate your spirituality and your striving for excellence for God and others into your work life was something that I every day try to incorporate into what I do.                                 I think of the Saint Ignatius prayer, I still pray it multiple times a day. And I remember getting a little green prayer card at that retreat from... I think it was from Father Ford or Father LeBran who was still conducting those at the time and reading it and then quickly committing it to memory. I don't know where the card is now I might still have it but, just trying to plug into the experience of that retreat and the idea of doing your best, your excellence for God, for others, for clients in what you do no matter what you're doing, wherever you are, personal sphere, professional sphere, other places and I've take that directly from Holy Cross. Yeah. Maura:                 Well and it sounds like you don't even need the little card anymore since you have it committed to memory. Joe:                        No. I have. Said it enough times and it sticks. Maura:                 Yeah. Yeah. Jim:                        Just like an argument in court, right? Maura:                 Well, you've touched upon this already about the Holy Cross mission and how you've internalized it. And so I'm curious to know what mission drives you and how you've really formed your own mission? Joe:                        Well, I mean, I like to think the two mold together. It's very short concise terms, to get to heaven and bring others with me or to help others get there as well, I mean at its basic element that's what I consider my life mission to be and so that in the practice of law, I mean from day to day and hour by hour, the way that that often manifests itself is to make sure in that moment whether it's a 0.1 time block, a 10th of an hour time block for a client or more than that or preparing for hearings or depositions to just make sure that I'm doing things up to a standard that that is reflective of trying to bring my best and do my best with my talents and ability because that's in that moment what's going to further that mission.                                 That's what God wants me to do for those six minutes or 12 minutes or whatever and you just... and then you're in the car headed off to youth sports events or to family events and just sort of recalibrating that mindset every minute of the day. And then obviously in the professional sphere, it means when you're advising people taking into consideration much more than just their particular narrow legal issue- Maura:                 Right. Joe:                        ... and we have in our practice in Providence, the nice flexibility in that, in addition to representing some large corporate companies and major corporations in sort of big complex litigation, we're also small enough and we're in a small enough legal market that neighbors with personal matters can call and we can actually take those matters on and help them, or people with a small business disputes that probably wouldn't even get in the door at a larger firm and it's there that you can be more of a holistic adviser and looking at helping this person along whatever path that they're taking and it may even spill over beyond the law. You're thinking about the mission to help ultimately, how can I help this person get to heaven? And so that's my mission. Maura:                 It's an important one. Yeah. Maura:                 Well, and I'll ask you to think back to when you were a student at Holy Cross and what stands out most from your experience and how it's really prepared you for these moments of helping people with their challenges and maybe helping with some of your own challenges. Joe:                        I'd say first and foremost like Mary said, because we were both History majors at about the same time. So I think our experiences were probably very similar. The workload... I think we did a five course load at Holy Cross when we were here in the mid ‘90s and that seemed to be talking to friends at other schools, one more core substantive academic course than others would take. So there was always a lot of work and in the history department there was always a lot of reading and writing all the time and deadlines, constantly deadlines. Write papers tomorrow, 10 page paper due Friday, 12 pages due Tuesday, I mean really our litigation practice at Providence is not much different at all, so you kind of hone those skills. But also the sort of the demands of some of the professors.                                 I remember Father Kuzniewski, taking his History classes and we had a trip that we were taking out to Colorado Springs, the hockey team was to play Air Force Academy, that was in October of my senior year and we were going to fly out of Logan on a Thursday morning for the weekend games and I think we were leaving the Hart Center at 5:00 AM and we had a History test scheduled for that day so I went to see Father K a week or so before and I said, here's my conflict so I can’t take the test. Well let me know if I can take it when I get back or make another arrangement, and he said, "Well, what time does the bus leave the Hart Center?" I said, "5:00 AM we're going to be packed up and go." He said, "Okay, well this will work well."                                 He said, Ciampi’s is on the way to the Hart Center so why don't you stop by. Ring the bell at Ciampi at 3:00 AM and you can take your test from 3:00 AM to 4:30 AM that will give plenty of time to get up there and get on the bus." And that's what I did. I showed up at the Ciampi Hall at 3:00 AM and Father K set me up with a little space, I think he offered me some coffee and- Maura:                 It's the least he could do. Joe:                        ... I took my History test. In just the little mini capsule that was Holy Cross and then I was on the bus and we were off and we had a great weekend and work due on Monday morning when we flew back. Maura:                 And then when others were complaining about that 5:00 AM meeting, you said, "I've been up for hours, so I don't want to hear it." Joe:                        That's right. Joe:                        I wasn't worried about missing the bus. Maura:                 That is the priceless story. That is absolutely priceless. And do you remember, did you do okay at 3:00 AM? Joe:                        I did. I remember I got an A on the test. Maura:                 Well, see that's even more impressive, right? Joe:                        Yeah. Maura:                 Right. Joe:                        Yeah. I didn't get A's on every test but I did get an A on that one. I remember too Coach Pearl, who was the hockey coach at the time, he had a freshman study hall that he had posted on the board up there for the players to go to and I for some reason thought or assumed it was optional, like he would make the time available if you felt you were needing extra study time and otherwise, I was thinking, you just go to the library or maybe you didn't have anything to do that day and so you wouldn't go. So I saw there was a note on the board the day after I had blown off or missed the study hall, wasn't a blow up to me. It said, "Cavanagh, see me." And I did and he said, "What was the story last night? Where were you?" I said, "Well, I thought it was optional coach." He said, "Optional? No, no, no, that wasn't optional."                                 So he said, "Why don't you come meet me up here tomorrow morning at 7:00." And I said, "Okay, I'll be here." And he said, "And wear your workout clothes too." And so I came up to the front of Hart Center I remember this, I think it was a Friday morning and he was there and in a lawn chair outside with the paper in his hand and a stopwatch.                                 And he said, "Okay, Cav, down to the front steps of Kimball and back in less than five minutes or you do it again, go." And I shot down the hill and you wouldn't believe how quickly you can get from the front steps of Hart Center to Kimball when you're going on adrenaline and moving. But the minute you turn around and start going back the other direction, I was like, "Yeah, I'm still sore. I think I blocked it out, the whole experience." But it was demands like that are rearing you and preparing you for bigger things and similar obligations later in life so I had a great experience here playing hockey for Coach Pearl and definitely in reflection appreciate things like that from the community from the kind of the leaders or the instructors here. Maura:                 Yeah, they make sure you don't forget. Maura:                 How has your Holy Cross education influenced the way that you practice law? Joe:                        Well, it's like I was saying earlier, drawing on your academic experiences, your ability to manage time, you're looking at the faith mission of the college and the and the faith foundation that it provides, and then trying to incorporate that into your conversations and your thinking with your clients every day. Maura:                 Yeah. Yeah. And what has been the most satisfying or rewarding moment in your work? Joe:                        Well, I mean winning an appeal before the Rhode Island Supreme Court, winning summary judgment on big cases for some clients, those things jump out as kind of the most beneficial legal results. Winning a trial and having it affirmed on appeal in cases. But I think actually the matters that I've seen that have taken twists and turns and sort of winding roads through our superior court with multiple parties over years sometimes and then getting to the end of that road and having a satisfied client that knows that you stuck by them through the whole process and through ups and downs.                                 I've had a couple of those recently and it becomes at times... I don't want to say a war of attrition, but that's it. I mean someone comes into your office and they have something there may be emotionally really stirred up about something that just happened and they want to be in the court the next day and sue everybody and then one of the first conversations you have to have is like, "Listen, this doesn't happen. This is emotion sort of the raw feeling that you're going on right now, by the time we're moving forward in this case it'll probably subside quite a bit and it's going to be down to your legal rights and making sure that you want to keep pursuing those and protect your interests."                                 And then over time, for the clients to see that you are committed to that what I'd call sort of a higher pursuit and them sticking by you and you sticking by them to get to the end of that road where the emotion and the initial sting is sort of well past, those are the most satisfying moments for me. Maura:                 That's fantastic. Yeah. And I'm sure it's not easy too. I'm sure there are a lot of challenges along the way too and so not easy to stick by. So that's great. Maura:                 And then my last question for you is what advice would you have for someone who's interested in practicing law? Joe:                        Well, let's see, I would... like Mary had said, if someone's interested in going to law school, you'd really want to check the motivation and make sure that it's not just a logical next step that they hadn't thought too much about. But I would say that they'd want to go ahead and pursue it, but then keep an eye on how the technology of today is kind of changing the practice of law. I mean, so much is done just at your desk, at your computer on email or phone and see for us we can still comment that that's different and that's not how we began our practices and we can kind of feel the toll of that when you don't have as many face to face interactions with people and you think, "Boy, it's been a while since I've seen this person and why is that because I used to see them all the time."                                 And it's just the change in nature of things so I would think it'd be difficult if you've never practiced law at all where that wasn't the case, where hearings and conferences are routinely done now just by phone and video link and so I think I would tell them to spend time beginning in law school making sure that they spend time with their classmates and have real human interaction there and that they try to do the same with their clients. Maura:                 Well, and I think that speaks so much to what you both talked about of really finding the human element in your clients and really treating them like the person who they are and how that can get so easily lost with technology, and when things are virtual it's easier to create that distance and it sounds how important it is to really force yourself to make the time for real interactions. Joe:                        Absolutely. Yeah. Maura:                 Right. Right. Joe:                        And with other lawyers too and with judges and clerks and all the people that you come in contact with in a legal practice. Maura:                 Right, right. Thank you. Thank you very much. Joe:                        Thank you. Maura:                 That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be men and women for and with others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, "now go forth and set the world on fire." --- Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

In part one of a three-part series, Maura Sweeney '07 interviews Mary Cavanagh Dunn '96 about growing up in a family of 9 children, and how her Holy Cross experience influences the way she practices law. Recorded September 11, 2019 --- Transcript Mary:                    By working hard, by being efficient, by really representing your client's interest the way they're meant to be represented. That kind of integrity and that kind of meaningfulness you bring to your work, it something that has always stays with me as I work through the challenges I have now and I think that started at Holy Cross. Maura:                 Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, from the class of 2007, director of alumni career development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. Maura:                 We are offering something special this week, a three for one special. I had the pleasure of sitting down with three siblings who are all Holy Cross graduates and all practicing lawyers. Mary Cavanagh Dunn from the class of 1996, Joe Cavanagh from the class of 1999, and Jim Cavanagh from the class of 2013. In this three part episode, I speak with each of them to understand how their time at Holy Cross has influenced the way that they practice law. In this first episode I speak with Mary. Mary Cavanagh Dunn graduated from Holy Cross in 1996 and Suffolk University Law School in 2002. The oldest of nine children, Mary decided to join her father's Rhode Island law firm, Bliss and Cavanagh, where she made partner in 2013. She speaks about the decision to follow in her father's footsteps and how her education at Holy Cross has inspired and formed her work. Maura:                 I'm very excited to have you here. You're three siblings, all Holy Cross grads, all history majors. You went to law school after Holy Cross and are practicing lawyers, and my guess is that's probably where a lot of the similarities end. Mary:                    That's probably true. Maura:                 I know. I'm similarly, I'm from a large family. I read that you're from a family of nine kids and I know that from us, we're one of five, which felt big. It doesn't feel big anymore. But we all are very, we have some similarities, we were all raised from the same home, but we're all very different people. And so I imagine the same is true from all of you. Maura:                 So what I'm really excited about today is to hear how you each had your own Holy Cross experience. How you took the way that you were raised, took your Holy Cross experience, put your own stamp on it, and yet have decided to pursue a similar profession and to hear about that story, because I think that's really, really cool. So before I jump in and ask about each of your backgrounds, I'd love to just know a little bit about growing up with such a big family. I don't know who wants to take that one or give us a bit of an idea of where you're from and about your family. Jim:                        Well, as always, I defer to the oldest, well the older, excuse me. Number eight of nine. Mary:                    We primarily have lived in Warwick, Rhode Island most of our lives, I mean, most of us were involved at some level in sports. The boys in hockey, I played volleyball here, but I played tennis. And we went to, the older group of us went to public school and then Jim went to a Catholic school. So there's some differences there. But we all ended up here at the Catholic College. So, and I think, yeah, growing up, there were some families with four or five kids, but we were sort of atypical in that there are nine of us. My mom drove around a big blue van, carrying us from practice to practice and things like that, but we had a pretty close knit family. Mary:                    We come from a very large family. My father was one of nine and most of his siblings have very large families and actually most of them live in Rhode Island. So not just us, there was a good amount of cousins. And so I think we all had a real sense of family. And to tell you the truth, it wasn't until I got to Holy Cross that I actually met all these other people who came from these big families. Because I will say growing up it was more unique that we were from a large family, but Holy Cross, that was one of the things I felt a real, it was kind of a surprise to me. But it was one of the things when I was starting out here feeling a little unsure it ... I played volleyball, and a lot of the, I should say women, not girls, that I played with were the youngest of big families. It was unique for me to be the oldest, but it was a real connection and I have always found that with a lot of my Holy Cross friends that that kind of large family aspect to it was something that was really unique to here, in our lifetime, I would say. I don't know if Joe and Jim would agree or disagree, but. Joe:                        I had the same experience. I remember the first day at our really on campus at Lehy. Lehy two. One of the guys who lived in the room, just one or two down. I was talking to him in the hallway and just making introductions and I said, "I'm the second oldest of nine." And he said, "Oh, so am I. Isn't that great?" Joe:                        Okay. Not in Kansas anymore when something like that. Mary:                    You're going to have to come up with something else to set you apart, now. Joe:                        Right. But that was a really beneficial part of being at Holy Cross. I thought that you could find people that you shared similar background and experience with. So you had a common bond in a way, and the faith bond, too. But yet within that framework, as you pointed out, there are so many differences and it's sort of like you have certain basics that allow you to be comfortable, stable to kind of get past some of the maybe more difficult transitional elements I would think of being on a college campus for the first time, and dive right in and get into the intellectual pursuits, and your activities, and meeting people. And so that part of being from a big family and being at Holy Cross I think was really, really helpful. Yeah. Maura:                 That's great. Jim:                        I know they both said they met, had classmates with large families who were at the older end, but their youngest siblings must have been older than me, because I felt like I still was unique. Maybe it was just my experience. No, I could think like Martin McNamara, one of my good friends, he was from a family of six, so. But I felt like nine was still pretty good, still the winning number. Jim:                        But something that was unique for me, I think, just given the age range in our family. I think, I remember, I think one unique thing about me was that I had so many nieces and nephews showing up on campus. And I remember actually it was a few times Joe visited me on homecoming would bring his boys, and everyone would say, "Are these are your cousins? Or are these your brothers?" Jim:                        I'm like, "Actually no, these are my nephews. That's my brother, there." And that was fun. And also, too, just to harken back to the first question about growing up in a big family, I've loved it. And being at the younger end, you certainly get to learn by the actions of your older siblings and see what works, see what didn't. Jim:                        And but also too, it's been fun, because I was so, I was right at the point where I remember all of them going off to school. I remember Mary, I think, she was, I was really young when she went off to college, but I have a memory of it coming to Holy Cross and dropping her off. But as they've all had kids, I feel like I've gotten to know the young versions of my siblings, which is a lot of fun. I mean, my nieces and nephews are their own people, but they certainly have characteristics of their parents, so it's good. Jim:                        And I'm roughly the same distance in age with my oldest siblings and the older end of Joe and Mary's kids, so that's been a lot of fun. Joe:                        Or so you've heard, but maybe don't leap to too many conclusions. Jim:                        That's right. That's right. Maura:                 Well, I can say I'm also, I'm number four of five, so I can appreciate being on the younger side and getting to see everything that goes on and yet also feeling like, "Okay, they did it that way. I'm going to pave my own path over here," being just really fun. Jim:                        Yeah. Maura:                 Yeah. Well, so I am really excited to jump in and ask each of you some questions, now that we have a sense of where you're coming from. I've never interviewed a group of siblings before, so if it's okay with you, we'll go one at a time so we can learn about each of you. And then I've got some speed round questions that we can tackle as a group at the end. Does that work? Joe:                        That's great. Maura:                 Yes? Okay, great. So Mary, you've agreed to hold the oldest position and go first, and I am grateful. So from what I have learned, so you went to Suffolk Law, graduated in 2002? Mary:                    Yes. Maura:                 You're a partner at Bliss and Cavanagh in Providence, Rhode Island, and you work as a civil litigator focusing on cases and appeals involving business, employment, defamation, products liability, personal injury, insurance, and media law. And you've started to develop a probate litigation practice to handle cases in probate courts and appeals to superior court. Maura:                 Some pro bono activities include working for the TGC Memorial fund, a fund created by your family to aid those suffering with mental illness through education, research and treatment programs. And you have received a few awards from the "Super Lawyers" magazine, rising star in New England and Rhode Island from 2010 to 2014 and super lawyer in New England and Rhode Island in 2015 to 2016. So my first question for you is how does it feel to be a super lawyer? Mary:                    Well, it feels good. It kind of ties into the sibling theme, since Joe is also a super lawyer. My father is a super lawyer, as well, so it feels great- Jim:                        I'm an aspiring super lawyer. Mary:                    But it does feel great to be a super lawyer. There's a lot of people in Rhode Island and Massachusetts, as well, with that designation. But yeah, I mean I like to think I'm a super lawyer. It's nice to get that accolade, but if anything maybe it gives you a little more of a push to, hopefully you are a super lawyer and as you entered new cases and dealing with new clients. But yes, it's a nice award. It's good to feel that, recognized that way by your peers, by your other lawyers that you practice with, because it's competitive, you're competing with them for business. But in Rhode Island it's a very collegial legal community, it's a small legal community, which is one of the things I like about practicing there. So yes, it's nice. It's a nice award to get. Maura:                 Well and the fact that it's given by your peers, that is more impressive, I think, than if it was a selection committee, because it really shows the kind of impact and reputation that you have. Mary:                    Yeah. So it, yeah, it's good. It's a good feeling to have that award. Maura:                 Plus it's a fun title, too, which I think you can throw on a cape and really take off. Maura:                 So I'd love to hear a little bit about your professional journey since you graduated from Holy Cross. Mary:                    Sure. So I graduated right in 2002 and then practiced at a couple smaller firms up in Massachusetts for I think all told about two years before I came down to Rhode Island in 2003 and started practicing where I am now. So I feel as if I've been at Bliss and Cavanagh for most of my career. During law school, I worked at some smaller firms, I also interned with a judge and things like that. So I would say that the pre-Bliss and Cavanagh experience also encompasses those jobs I had in the summers during law school. Mary:                    But yeah, I mean it was good to go. Bliss and Cavanagh in Rhode Island is considered a medium sized firm, but it's pretty small. It's about, right now, I think we have 11 lawyers. At some point, I think we've had 12 or 13, but not like the big law, big type of firm. Mary:                    I never practice there. Joe and Jim obviously will have different thoughts on that. But I, starting out, in Boston and then coming down to Rhode Island, I did notice a change. I think in Rhode Island I was able to get into court more. The legal community, they're smaller, there's more, in Massachusetts, a lot of the motions and things like that that young lawyers handle are handled primarily on the papers, meaning you don't go into court. So I think professionally, for me, it was starting out pretty new in Rhode Island I was able to get into court a lot and that was a good part of my development. I think we handle a lot of cases in our office staffed one or two lawyers, so from an early age there's no kind of mentorship program in a smaller firm, so you learn a lot on your feet. Mary:                    And I think that's how I've been, a bit, I suppose to my role as the oldest it was, I was the first one to work with my father. He never worked with his father, so that was kind of a new thing in the family legal lore that I kind of just walking into, and it worked out great. But all of those things, I mean, professionally I found that being a young lawyer, you come out of law school, you have a lot to learn. You have a lot to learn about the business side of law. I think in law school you're just typically focused on the concepts and the principles and things like that. But I think going into a law firm, you start to look at the business side of it from the client's view and being efficient and things like that. Mary:                    But in terms of subject area of law, I think you could, you gleaned from the bio. I mean we do litigation and trial work for a lot of different areas, subject areas of law. We're not pigeonholed in one area as like tax law, or family law, or something like that. So I think coming into it, I really liked that about my job. It's also one of the most challenging things about my job, because every time you get a new case, even 16 years in, sometimes you feel like you're only a couple of years off school if it's not as subject area you've dealt with very recently. Mary:                    But I also think too, it gives you a lot of confidence, because once you've been through a case and gotten up to speed and recognized it, you see that you can apply the skills that you've learned to basically a lot of different subject areas. When it gets to the point of someone suing someone or defending a lawsuit and things like that. I do think that having the independence, being able to have really take control of the case early on, and really have client contact early on is really helpful because it gives you a broader perspective of what you're doing. If you're one of a team of 15 lawyers just maybe assigned to just one piece of a case, I think you learn more by really sitting with the client. Then you go into court, you see how the judge views it, you start to bring that into it. And I think that that is something that Holy Cross, that whole idea of the holistic learning experience and having it be meaningful. And why are we here and why are we learning? Mary:                    Just having that view intellectually is really helpful in this profession, because you're always dealing with a lot of competing interests there. And so, yeah, so Rhode Island is a great place to practice. Practicing with my brother and father for me has been extremely rewarding. I mean I think it's something that I can't say enough about how much I, without even thinking about it, I think I mentioned, I never would have pictured that when I was even going to law school, I wanted to be a lawyer. Mary:                    I was into the law and I had that background from hearing my father talk about cases. But now having worked with Joe and things like that, the kind of trust that's there and also just the respect that you have for your siblings and your father is great. And I find myself, when I talk to other peers who graduated when I did from law school, it wasn't the best legal market at that time, and I think it was tough. I think a lot of people have moved from firm to firm or I think of one woman who worked with me early on, she ended up, a lot of them ended up starting their own firms and things like that, and have been very successful. Mary:                    But I find myself lucky to have landed where I have. I think I just find myself feeling very blessed and fortunate to be there. Maura:                 That's wonderful. Yeah. Well and it's nice that especially after working somewhere for a while, to still have that feeling is really, really powerful. Mary:                    Right. Maura:                 Well, and since you talked about Holy Cross and its holistic mission and holistic approach, I'd love to know a little bit about how Holy Cross's mission has influenced your life. Mary:                    Well, I think very much so the men and women for others. I mean, I think you go into each day, I have a faith and I go to church and pray about how I can sort of be open to what I can do to help people find their way or do something for others and things like that. So that kind of idea of like that discernment and that idea of why are you here and why are you doing this at this moment? I think has stayed with me as you go through each challenge, and really just that idea of bringing kind of an ethical or meaningful perspective to every situation. Mary:                    In other words people, there's that whole rap on lawyers, you're ambulance chasers, you're just trying to make money and things like that. And I think just to get beyond that and just to say, "Well actually no, if you think about it, what is a lawyer doing?" You're actually, you're helping people understand laws that are there to protect them in this whole system of law. And one of the things I always, I've talked to Jim about this, is at Holy Cross, I took some, I was a history major but I also focused near the end in Chinese history. And Professor Turner, who was here, she did a really great seminar on the law and human rights in China. Mary:                    It was actually kind of interesting because studying the way China views the legal system and the Chinese legal system actually made me really appreciate our system here. And just that whole idea that I think we all are raised in this society with this idea of the law and the laws are here to protect us. But if you compare that to some of the way laws are in other parts of the world where it's really just like a ruse. It's not even an actual legal system. The whole idea of innocent till proven guilty, and you have to go through these processes, and we have these systems in place. It got me really kind of energized to learn more about our system. And I think of that still, because people come with a real preconception of the fix is in, and I don't have a big, a big name lawyer, and it isn't this system. People are cynical now about our legal system, and about our government in general. Mary:                    And I find, I think, one of the things is to just kind of stick to the basics and recognize the work of good lawyers, if you follow, there's ways within the system to make the system work for people. And so that whole idea of any situation looking at how can you, as a lawyer in the system, help the system work the way it's supposed to be. Right? By working hard, by being efficient, by really representing your client's interests the way they're meant to be represented. And I think that kind of integrity and just that that kind of meaningfulness you bring to your work, it's sort of something that always stays with me as I work through the challenges I have now. And I think that started at Holy Cross, because it was like there was those classes that were very intense both intellectually, but they also really got you thinking about why are you doing this? Why are you studying this? That's a really long winded answer, but that's also, I blame Holy Cross for that. You can't just give a quick answer. Mary:                    Yeah, is that enough for the mission? I don't know, but. Maura:                 Well, I think what's nice is you've worked this in a little bit already, but I'd love to know how you've taken all of that and taken your life experience and crafted your own mission. What mission drives you and how did you form that for yourself? Mary:                    Well, it's been a process. I'd like to think that when I was born, I just read the mission and went off on my way. It didn't really work that way, there were some bumps along the way. But really, I think it's really about listening to yourself, but also recognizing your strengths and weaknesses. Right? And what is God calling you to do? I mean, and what do you want to do? Sometimes you go, it's that whole thing. They say you pray, pray, pray so hard for what you think you want, but then you have to sit and listen. Mary:                    Maybe God is saying, "No, that's not really what you need. It's what you want." That's what you think. You think you want this big job, but then all of a sudden I think it's more of that discernment and that ability to listen and just say, "Okay, that didn't work out the way I thought it would. What can I do with this situation?" And I think that that's taken a lot of time. I mean, I think it's something that you have to practice and you have to really be open to. But hopefully I've found that dealing with people who are in different amounts of distress and being kind of like as a lawyer, I think you're part, you're an advocate, but you're also part psychologist sometimes, too. Because when people come to you, they're in a lot of times, really tough times. Mary:                    So you end up talking to them and you end up thinking about your own life and how, not just how you can help them, but how when controversy or conflict arises in your life, how you've talked to your clients and you find yourself talking to yourself that way. And so my mission is just to be kind of trying to listen. It's hard for me. I'm a big talker. So for me the challenge is always to kind of just shut up and listen to what people are saying, but actually really reflect on it and discern and use my experience to help them, really, and to just use, as I said, my talents that I've been given by God to just help people advocate for themselves. And so I think if anything, that's how I find meaning and what I do regardless of what kind of case it is I think those things kind of stay the same through every situation. Maura:                 Yeah. Yeah. And just good skills for life, as you said, for really all aspects of life. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and you talked a little bit about your time at Holy Cross, but I'd love for you to think back to when you were a student and really talk to us about what stands out about your time on campus, and how it's really prepared you to tackle some of these challenges. Because your job is handling others, but also how it helps you prepare to tackle some of your own. Mary:                    Well, it's been a while, but I found Holy Cross to be a great place to learn through challenges. I mean, I found it to be academically challenging from the start. I think there was no class you could hide in, there were smaller classes and so you really had to focus and do your work. Mary:                    And I found, unlike high school where I think I worked my hardest in the first few years, I found here, by the end, I was working a lot harder and getting much better grades, I think because I really enjoyed the learning of it. And I found that some of the seminars and things that I took later in my later years, you had to speak, you had to not just write, you had to express yourself in speaking, as well as writing with a lot of challenges, not just from the professors or from students there. And that's something that carries through to this day in the law. I mean, you're constantly having to advocate both in writing and orally. And so that kind of a preparation and those challenges I definitely carry with, stay with me as I work through the cases I have now. Mary:                    But yeah, I think, I don't know, it's been so long. Sorry. Maura:                 Yeah, no, and that's fine. I mean, I think if anything, the fact that it has been awhile comes to show what really stood out the most. Mary:                    Yeah. Yeah. And it did. And it was. It was challenging for me. I mean, I had a background. I went to a public high school, which was a great high school. I was kind of a student athlete type of thing. I wasn't a real serious student, necessarily. And I definitely came out of Holy Cross, I think, much smarter and much more focused as a student. I think I always had intellectual capabilities, and I think then in law school too, and the Holy Cross foundation, I guess is the right word, really has helped me go through in all these different challenges, just high quality intellectual back and forth and really thinking things through and things like that. Mary:                    All of those skills, those critical skills and really just being in a group of people who, an excellent level of people. Because I do think that that's one thing you remember. I don't know if it was my mom saying that you are in this rarefied world in college because everyone you encounter, a lot of people, professors, everyone's on this certain level. Maura:                 Yeah. Mary:                    Right? Maura:                 Right. Mary:                    And I think you go out in the world and you recognize that that's not always the case. And that could be for one reason or another, but I'm always grateful and I definitely think that that started here at Holy Cross, that idea that there is a sort of a higher level that things can be at and that you can do what you can to kind of keep that level within you and bring that to whatever situation you're at. So I found it challenging here. Mary:                    And I was a student athlete. I mean that was certainly a challenge balancing that. And I find now, you look back and laugh. You say, "Oh I had a few volleyball games I had to balance it with my studies." And now with three children and working full time. Wow. I would like to say I taught me how to balance, but the kind of balancing I thought I was doing then is a little different. I'm sure you probably can relate. Maura:                 You get eased into that, too. Mary:                    But I suppose from that perspective, that's where you started. It's hard. It's tough here. I remember one professor telling me very clearly when I went in to try and say, "Well, I have the Patriot League Tournament." He was like, "Well, too bad. What's the Patriot league?" Mary:                    If I kind of thought of myself as more athlete than student, he quickly corrected me of that. So that was something that I did, but I appreciate that. I think that's one of those things you don't appreciate it until later, but then when you hear of other experiences at schools where the academics aren't taken as seriously and maybe it's more of a party school and things like that, that is definitely one of those things, as you get older you recognize that was a good thing. Maura:                 Yeah. Mary:                    It was maybe hard to hear, but I think at the time I recognized it, too. We weren't the top athletic team here. I wasn't here in a full scholarship or something like that. But that was a balance. And I worked. I did work at a few jobs when I was here, as well. But primarily I think the most challenging part was the academics and keeping up with it and just keeping it getting better as you went through it. Right? Maura:                 Right. Mary:                    Instead of transferring or something. Maura:                 Right? Yeah. Working through the challenges. Mary:                    Yeah. Maura:                 Yes. Absolutely. Mary:                    I think that is a common theme for most Holy Cross grads is just pushing through, despite the incredible workload that just keeps getting piled on and on and on. And yet we all graduate and so somehow it all gets done. Maura:                 Right, right. That was my mantra. Somehow it will get done. Maura:                 How has your Holy Cross education influenced the way you practice law? Mary:                    So I think I touched on this in my previous answer. I mean, I just think that whole idea of when you practice just trying to do the best you can every day with every client, taking them as they come in and listening to them. And then really listening to them and then explaining to them how you can help them with their legal problem. Right? And then explaining to them what a lawyer can do for them versus what they think a lawyer can do for them, or what they think they can get if they're paying someone to do something. But within an ethical framework. So explaining to them, this is what we can do for you. This is the law, this is the law that will help your case. This is how we can help you win your case. But here are the cons, I suppose, to that. And also here's what we won't do ethically. Mary:                    I mean that definitely is informed by obviously an ethical, obviously it's informed by our faith, as well, but our moral center. And that was obviously a big part of the Holy Cross and the Jesuit education ethic. But yeah, I mean I think just bringing excellence, bringing humanity sort of into each interaction with the person, seeing them as a whole person, as opposed to just like another case, another file. I think that that's something that I really work at. It's easy to just forget that, the people. Mary:                    And I think that goes into any interaction you have in the law. You're always interacting with all kinds of really high level judges and lawyers, but then clerks and other people like that. And then public defenders, we've done, Joe and I, have done some prosecution work. So you encounter in the court system, you really do encounter all different levels of society, and so I think you go into it just with a sort of a humility about that. And then just recognizing that you're just a part of that. And so I think in each case you just have to keep that in mind. And what I think is that, look, I think the system is only as good as the people who are working within it. So I think you have to hold yourself to that standard. Right? And just keep those standards in mind as you practice. Maura:                 Well, and probably I would guess that the fact that you do work so hard to focus on the whole person contributes to why you've been recognized as a super lawyer for all of these years and received these awards. Because it's not easy to do when you're busy, when you're stressed, when you have a lot to do. And people may or may not understand the constraints that you have around you with the law and with your work. So it goes to show that it's work worth doing to really take that extra step and focus on the person along with their challenges. Yeah. So I commend you for that. Maura:                 What's been the most satisfying or rewarding moment in your work? Mary:                    Well, gosh, that's hard. There's been a few. I mean, I think one of the most satisfying things for me, we don't try as many cases than just the litigators in general. Joe and I have talked about this, and say my dad did. He was trying cases all the time. And I always emulated, I always thought the full package of being a lawyer was to be able to try a case from start to finish on my own, even though you always have people along the way. And there were times in my career where I didn't think I could do that or I thought maybe I'm in the wrong profession, I don't have the right temperament for this, and I got frustrated, and things like that. Mary:                    So I did finally try a full jury case from start to finish on my own. And that to me, even though I technically lost the case, because they, without getting into too much detail. But to me, the way I felt after that, was by far the most satisfying moment for me and my entire career, because I actually had to fight against my own negativity of myself. And I just had to go forward. And I think that it really showed me, too, that I had more. Over the years, you don't get in court and try cases as much, so you start to have this almost inferiority complex as a lawyer. Like I don't know if I could do this, we don't try cases the way people used to, and things like that. And so to go in there and actually pick a jury, and try a jury case, and kind of practice all the things we've learned since law school in real time or something like that. That to me it was very satisfying for me, because I think I'm hopeful that that'll help me going forward. Mary:                    I think I learned probably like 10 years worth of stuff that'll help my practice, to help me be a better lawyer in probably a six month period. And so for me, trying to be efficient, cram a lot of things in, that was amazing to me. Maura:                 That was great. Mary:                    And then another satisfying thing for me, I guess on a personal side, was that I've worked with my father for all these years and I've always emulated him. I'm the oldest and your parents, if they're good parents, because I'm a parent now, you never give your kids too much praise, because you're always trying to bring out the best in them and things like that. And so he would work with me on cases sometimes he'd really oversee them. As I went on and on, he pulled back a little bit and let me handle them primarily on my own. And I handled the case pretty much on my own, ended up winning it, a case that he typically would have handled. And so that for me too was like a very kind of, it just, again, like the trial, it really showed me what I had learned and how I can move forward. It was a real confidence booster for me too. And also just to be able to recognize that I think he would have had to trust me a pretty fair amount to give me that. Maura:                 Yeah. Right. Mary:                    Because I raise my own kids I recognize that. As I'm trying to let them go you recognize that as a parent that's not always so easy, because you've seen them from the time they were young. So both of those things I think were, and at a high level, career wise in terms of being a lawyer, satisfying. Because, really, you don't know when those opportunities are going to come up. So I found that those are two things that I feel really grateful for and that they were great moments for me. Maura:                 That's wonderful. Jim:                        She's doing pretty well with our dad. He still doesn't let me drive his car when I'm home. Mary:                    He's either just thrown up his and given up, or he's giving us more responsibility. You be the judge. Maura:                 Well, and my last question for you is, what advice would you have for someone who's interested in pursuing a career in law? Mary:                    My advice would be just really to be honest with yourself about why you're doing it. And then talk to some lawyers and see what maybe their biggest regrets were or what they think practicing law is all about. Because I think, law school a lot of times I think people just go into it because it's something that if you don't really know what you want to do with a liberal arts degree, you just kind of go to law school. A lot of people do that. I don't know if they do that anymore. Maura:                 Less so. But it used to be. Mary:                    Used to be one of those things. So I would say, I think the law is a great profession. Like in a Holy Cross education, I mean, I think it gives you a good foundation to maybe do a lot of different things in life. As your life changes if you want to teach law or if you want to go work for our company and go in house. I've had many female peers of mine who've had families have done that successfully, gone in-house and had a different kind of law career. But I would say, just really discern, really think about why you want to go to law school and what you want to do. Because it's a big commitment and it's a hard profession, and you're constantly challenged. Mary:                    I mean, if you want that kind of job that you can just show up, punch the clock, you know what to expect every day, and just come home, law is not for you. It's always changing. It's always challenging. And that's why I love it. That's what I would say to someone. Maura:                 Yeah. And that is good advice, because it has since the financial crisis, it's changed significantly. Mary:                    Right, right. Maura:                 Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you very much. Mary:                    You're welcome. Maura:                 That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be men and women for and with others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the office of alumni relations at the college of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, "Now go forth and set the world on fire". --- Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

Will McAvoy '20 interviews Frank Kartheiser '72 about living the Holy Cross mission through his work in the Worcester community. Recorded May 8, 2019 --- Transcript Frank:                   I think Men and Women for Others talks about charity and the work of charity, but that can be, that sets up a power dynamic of one over and against the other. Whereas with others recognizes the basic dignity, worth, value of every person, no matter where they're at and that we've got to meet them face to face and that we can do more together than we can do by ourselves. Maura:                 Welcome to Mission-Driven where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. Maura:                 This episode we hear from Frank Kartheiser from the class of 1972. Frank received an honorary degree from the college in May, 2019 to celebrate his career devoted to social justice. Among some of his many accomplishments, Frank founded the Mustard Seed, a Catholic worker house in 1972. In 1993, he expanded his focus to found Worcester Interfaith. Its mission is to bring people of all religions together to strengthen communities. Will McAvoy from the class of 2020 speaks with Frank about his time at Holy Cross and how it inspired him to pursue a life devoted to service and social justice within the Worcester community. Will:                       Thanks for coming today, definitely excited, for sure. Frank:                   Thank you for doing this. Will:                       Of course, of course. So first question here. I've read about the wonderful work that you've done and the important organizations that you founded over the years. I would love to hear about your professional journey in your own words. How do you come to your professional role and other involvements? Frank:                   That's a good question. When I was, when I came, I grew up in Chicago and when I came out here to go to school, big things that were important to me going to college were football and having fun. So I hope you had bigger dreams than I did Will. But it was during the time of the Vietnam war in '68 and I had to grow up in a hurry and the reality of what was going on in the world. I came in here thinking, I'll go into business, four years here and then I'll do that. But I then realized that people in our country who don't look like me get treated differently. And that was a wake up call for me, that was embarrassing and I felt guilty about it, but I think the stronger feeling was how do I give back? What do I have to give back to the community? So that's kind of what moved me into the work I do. Will:                       Interesting, that's absolutely amazing, I think that's awesome that you're able to do that. Frank:                   I had to drop out of school to do it. Once I realized what was going on, I couldn't stay here in school. I just needed to be out in the world. So I dropped out and that's when I did some work in the community and then we opened Mustard Seed Catholic Worker house. Will:                       Very nice. And you got the honorary degree this year, so that's good. Frank:                   Yes. Yes my family was, because I dropped out, My family was saying, Oh you're finally getting your degree. Will:                       Hey, its true enough, that's impressive. Frank:                   Well actually I came back, I did come back in 1987 and I came back for a year, got my diploma in 1988 so I was in a 20 year plan. 68, 88. Will:                       I've heard the five and six year, now the 20 years. Frank:                   Well it's college, why rush it? Will:                       Of course, of course. Enjoy it. So there's another question here. So what mission drives you? In other words, what drives the work that you do? Frank:                   I think the most important thing for me and I didn't always realize language for this. But when I read about Pope Francis, he's a Jesuit, his talk about encountering the other and what that means and how it moves us. And I think that said to me that reality is more important than ideas. So I was up here and in school and learning about ideas and what to pursue the truth, but what I really need was, cause as a privileged white man I felt like I just wasn't in touch with reality. And so leaving the school and starting to work in the community, that learning to be real. Frank:                   What that is like, what that's about, that's kind of driven me cause that leads to all kinds of caring for one another. Will:                       No, I totally agree. And now currently at Holy Cross, there's a lot of students, whether it be in SPUD, community-based learning, spring break immersion, a lot of those students are trying to do the same thing. I guess they're trying to follow in your footsteps in a sense. Frank:                   Well it's funny you say that. We had the community, SPUD had their community thing with the Donelan Center yesterday and this young woman who was leading it, a woman named Kate, she said, well she told her story a bit and she said, I came here to get into business and then I volunteered at Nativity School and now I head up the student educators and I'm going to teach at Nativity School for the next two years. Frank:                   So I said to her, wow, that's like my story of how the reality, how being in the world and real moves the mission as you were saying. Will:                       And I feel like the topic of this podcast, mission-driven, I feel like that's a lot of what the school does, helps form students in a sense and see what's right for them. So I guess on a similar tangent to that, how has Holy Cross's mission influenced your life? Frank:                   The, when I was here, when I came, when I started here in 68 we didn't really have a mission statement like that. We had an an understanding that it was a good school and work hard at the academics, but it was more this sense of the mission of encountering and being with people, being real. And I think now the mission of Men and Women for Others kind of came up in that period when I was working in the community. Frank:                   And initially it was Men and Women for Others and now the language is starting to change to get to With Others. And for me, I think that's an important change that's been important to see that happen. I think Men and Women for Others talks about charity and the work of charity. But that can be, that sets up a power dynamic of one over and against the other. Whereas With Others recognizes the basic dignity, worth, value of every person, no matter where they're at. And that we've got to meet them face to face and that we can do more together than we can do by ourselves. Will:                       So you're saying a sense of solidarity in a sense. Frank:                   Very good, yeah good word. Yeah, that sense of solidarity. Will:                       My freshman Montserrat class with professor Ginny Ryan, it was entitled Exploring Differences and Modifying Technologies. And we spoke about this one document called Toxic Charity. Will:                       Are you familiar with it? Frank:                   I'm not. But I've read a few different articles and I can't remember it. But it goes to that toxicity. Will:                       So it was actually, it's interesting you're referencing that, cause that sounds like a pretty parallel story to what I read in toxic charity my freshman year. I still remember it. Frank:                   Well for me, I dropped out of school and then we opened the Mustard Seed as a way to be more immersed. And what happened was at first it was great and we're sharing food, shelter, clothing, confusion, loneliness. We shared what we had, but then the line got longer and longer and more people started to come and it became toxic in the sense that we weren't there to have a longer line at the soup kitchen. Frank:                   That's not why we got into this. We were there to care for those folks in a crisis and then work with the institutions in our neighborhood so that people could move out of poverty, move out of that kind of situation. And unfortunately, I don't think we're very good in this country about moving out. Everyone loves charity, the for part doing for others. But this idea of doing with the justice dimension, we struggle with that. Will:                       I feel that. And the Mustard Seed is, it's still present today, right, in downtown Worcester? Frank:                   Yes, unfortunately, that goes to the point you were making, unfortunately, what's this, almost 50 years and we still have a soup kitchen in Worcester. We never, when we started it, we never thought this thing would endure. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying that's not where the dignity needs to come from, where the dignity can come from. Frank:                   It needs to come from working with one another around changing systems that honor every person. Will:                       I totally, I totally agree. It's interesting. So on that same tangent, is there a certain person or experience that inspired you to live out the Jesuit mission after your time at Holy cross, like a professor or mentor that comes to mind? Frank:                   I was very fortunate Will when I decided to drop out of school to go work in the community, I bumped into professor David O'Brien and I told him I was dropping out and he said, well, where are you going to live? And I said, I don't know. He said, well, would you like to live with Joanne and me and the family? And that's probably one of the greatest things that's happened to me in my life. I had a year, it was like a private tutorial in the Catholic worker movement, community organizing, Catholic social teaching. Frank:                   So he's been a friend and mentor, both of them, Joanne and David, and they've been tremendous. Also, I learned a lot about babysitting too. They had four little kids, two, four, six and eight at the time. But it was a great opportunity for me and for growing in my faith because faith had kind of gotten a little flat for me because my whole life had caved in. Looking at the world, what was going on, realizing how much privilege I had, but how other people weren't treated the same. And that kind of tore at my, the fabric of my Catholicism and being an American. And so to get these tools from Dave to think about other ways of being in the world that was invaluable for me, still is. Will:                       That's really cool. And I can also say, I think there's been several professors who have done something like that. Will:                       They haven't, they haven't taken me into their home and raised me but I have parents for that. But that's awesome that they've done that, for sure. So in regards to your work that you've done in the 40 or so years post your first year of college 50 or so years, what has surprised you most about your work? Frank:                   I think what continues to surprise me is what little impact I've been able to have, or we've been able to have. Cause there's nothing that I want to do in the world that I can do by myself. Obviously all the things I want to do, I need other people. But we were talking earlier about the college this year dealing with demonstrations and sit ins and a lot of it comes back to race and gender and income inequality. Well that was 68 and 69 it was all those same issues. Frank:                   And so I guess it's feeling the frustration of that and then the yearning to how do we continue to try to have a deeper impact on what's happening. Will:                       And when you're saying that, it's like tough to just not make that much of an impact. Have you ever heard like the starfish analogy? When you said that, that immediately came to mind for me. So it's like you see a beach full of starfish and you're just one person on the beach and you're throwing a few starfish in but at least you're making a difference to that one starfish that you can help. Frank:                   The only thing I don't like about that story, I'd go try to organize a couple of hundred people, so that we could get a couple of hundred in at a time. I'd be a little frustrated by myself one starfish at a time. Frank:                   That's what moved me from doing the soup kitchen and doing the Catholic Worker Movement. I'm still part of it, but move me to think about community organizing as a tool for justice. Community organizing is the antipoverty tool of the Catholic church. And it has been a tremendous gift to me. It's been a way of life really. Will:                       And I remember at the Nonprofit Careers Conference this past winter break, I remember you spoke about that. It's about the 30 or so students that were there listening about community organizing and talking about how many of these famous people that we know of, like our former president, president Obama was a former community organizer. So I think that's, that's really impressive that community organizing and being introduced to that field. It's awesome. Frank:                   And I think we struggle with what it is. Frank:                   How do we do it better and how do we have these broader impacts. We all know that it takes people, but in this country the wealth dynamic is so out of whack that I think it threatens our democracy where people feel like they can come together and have the impacts that they want and that we need and that wealth. I mean, in other words, everyone knows that my vote is not as important as Bill Gates and how do you deal with that kind of inequality? Will:                       So another question we have here. In what ways have you faced challenges in incorporating your service work and social justice into your career life? Frank:                   Say that again. Will:                       Sure. In what ways have you faced challenges in incorporating your service work and social justice into your career life? Frank:                   So my career is social justice. I'm not sure how to incorporate it, but I go back to the part about being at the Mustard Seed and when I was at Holy Cross and realized that people who don't look like me don't get treated the same. That was very discouraging and depressing for me and a guilt driven. And then when I was at the Mustard Seed and I saw the line getting longer and things not improving, just things getting work worse for people. That forced me to ask these questions. Why? Why is this happening? Why in the richest country in the world do we need soup kitchen? And those questions why were pushed me into more of the social justice piece. And then I had to figure out, well how do you do it? How do you do this social justice thing? And what came to out of Catholic social teaching was a recognition of community organizing as the key tool. But we got to do a better job than that. We got to do other kinds of ways to put social justice and social change to work. Will:                       So on a similar tangent, so this is in comparison to college campus and the rest of the society of the world. So like on a college campus there is a clear cut way to bring up a new idea and certain channels exist to help implement these new programs or initiatives, in the workplace that may be a different story or basically in society. For example, for you in the Worcester society, do you have any experience of bringing up a new initiative? And how did you successfully do that? Frank:                   That was my job to bring up new initiatives and the dynamic is a power dynamic, right? And so I needed to build power. That's how you bring up new ideas. New ideas don't come out of the mind. When I was saying that before about Pope Francis talking about reality is more important than ideas. There's a ton of great ideas and ton of great things to do. But if you don't bring people together who have the muscle to put their values into action on these new ideas, the best idea in the world is going nowhere. Does that make sense? Will:                       Completely. Frank:                   And so when we're doing for people, the power dynamic is almost power over. The organizing dynamic is power with. So how do we come together, make the kind of compromise, get political and make the compromises that we need to make in order to raise not the best idea, but an idea that the broadest number of people can get behind to move things forward. Frank:                   Now some people argue that a camel is a horse made by a committee. And people hate meetings and, but I'm with Martin Buber, Martin Buber, everything is about meeting. Everything. And that's Pope Francis: encounter. And I'm not in a way to manipulate the other into doing you, what you want. I wouldn't, I'm such a whore for power. I would manipulate people. I just can't do it. It doesn't work. Or you could guilt guilt them. But unfortunately I'm Catholic, so I know the power of guilt, but it doesn't work. What works is respecting the other person and their interests and then sharing your interests and carving out opportunities for joint action. To me, that's a good idea. You see what I'm getting at?  I don't care what, I don't care what the idea is so much. What I care is that in this we have the opportunity to develop the relationships that we need to have enough trust so that we can hang together in the hard times to see that idea through to the end. Frank:                   Does that make sense? Will:                       No, completely. Frank:                   Trust in our communities is shattered. We talked about Barack as a organizer. What Barack said, the problem in the inner city isn't a lack of solutions. It's a lack of power to put those solutions to work and the reason there's a lack of power in many of our inner cities is what Barack called chronic isolation. Chronic isolation, that's the definition of powerlessness. So how do we build power? Power doesn't mean you get what you want. Power means you get a seat at the table where decisions are being made about your life, about who you are, about your family, about your neighbors. The line. I don't know if you've heard this Will they say, well, if you're not on the, if you're not at the table then you're probably on the menu. Will:                       That's tough, no it is tough. Will:                       Yeah, it does make sense. Yeah, interesting, that's a good analogy. So in regards to balancing your home life and then also your career working in the Worcester community, how are you able to balance everything? And in regards to the students who are going to be listening to this, what would advice would you give them in regards to that? Frank:                   I think love, love balances everything. There's a great line from attributed to, Arrupe. Will:                       Father Pedro Arrupe? Frank:                   Pedro Arrupe. Will:                       The Superior General of the Jesuits. Frank:                   Have you heard this, I don't know if you've heard it. It's like nothing is more practical than finding God. And he goes through, but at the end he says, "fall in love, stay in love, and it will decide everything". And I think, I think that's the tool, so the love helps decide everything and fall in love and stay in love. It's not, I'm not saying it's easy, but I think that's what's exciting to me. You know what I mean? That's what gets me up in the morning. Will:                       So now it's time for the infamous speed round that you've been hearing. So this is just a list, we've got several quick questions for quick responses here. Nothing too fancy, I promise. Frank:                   All right. Will:                       You ready? Frank:                   Yep. Will:                       Okay, what was your favorite dorm on campus? Frank:                   Wheeler. Will:                       Wheeler, okay, Wheeler's doing well right now up near the field house in the construction. Frank:                   Yes, I was an RA in Wheeler. Will:                       Oh you're an RA in Wheeler, very nice. What floor? Frank:                   One, two, I think, no, that was my first one. It must've been the third floor. Will:                       Third floor, okay, my friends, my really close friends that I live with now, I remember my first year there on the second floor. We were always on the second floor just hanging out, watching football games. Frank:                   Well, freshman year and my room number at Wheeler was one, no sophomore year I was, sophomore year I was in one, two, three. Will:                       That's pretty easy to remember. Frank:                   So that was the first floor, but then my roommate and I got to be RAs. I think it was the third. Will:                       Very nice. Frank:                   But then I dropped out. Will:                       Yeah, yeah and then the whole story began. Frank:                   That's right. Will:                       No, that's good. What's your favorite meal on campus? Frank:                   This is more of a joke or whatever. But you know you have names for meals? Will:                       Of course. Frank:                   Right? Speckled Death. Will:                       Oh gosh. Frank:                   Did you have like stuff like that? Will:                       Nothing, the food here is, I'm a fan. Frank:                   This school was, we ate family style. Will:                       So it's changed, yeah it's changed a lot, Frank:                   They passed out the food and if you were at the wrong end, you were thin. And so they, they, we had names, I can't even remember all the names for them. So I'm from the Midwest, so we're going down to eat and people say, oh we're having swordfish. I'm going (laughs) that's hilarious, swordfish, I love that. Cause I thought it was a joke name for what we were having and it was a first time I ever had swordfish. Oh my God, it was fabulous. Will:                       Did you like it? Frank:                   I loved it. Will:                       There you go. Frank:                   It was great. It was great. Will:                       You got your seafood, that's good. What's your go to cool beans order? Frank:                 When I'm meeting with students or folks up here, I'm just getting a decaf coffee. Will:                       Decaf? Frank:                 Yeah. It's not a, it's not a big order. Will:                       Nothing fancy, iced or hot? Frank:                   Hot. Will:                       Okay. Frank:                   Always hot. Will:                       I'm a iced coffee fan. Frank:                   Oh all right, mine's always hot and always D. Will:                       Interesting, okay. Frank:                   I'm buzzed enough Will. Will:                       I can sense that. Frank:                   (laughs) Will:                       What was your favorite class on campus? Frank:                   I took, I had a few a lot of great ones, but freshman year I took a literature course with Tom Lawlor and that guy blew my mind. He still does today, his wife Pat and he lived back over in Auburn, just over the hill. Tom was, it was just, it blew my mind all that he could take out of the readings that we were reading, all that he could fish out of there. I had never had an experience like that. And again, fed into this idea that, wow what I've been missing the whole world here, man. Where have I been? What have I been doing? Well, probably screwing around, playing football. Will:                       Well did you get any touchdowns I hope? I guess would you say that he was your favorite professor? Frank:                   Lawlor? Will:                       Mm-hmm (affirmative) Frank:                   I'd say probably Dave O'Brien, but there were so many tremendous. When I was a kid, we weren't allowed to read the Bible. The only reason you had a Bible in your house was for show and tell. And in the center of the Bible you could write down the dates of baptisms and first communion and confirmation and all that stuff. Right? But you couldn't read it. So when I came here in 68 and 69 when I started out here, we got to read some stuff, but it still, we couldn't read scripture. We could read the documents of Vatican 2 and those documents said you could read scripture. So when I came back in 87 I had a guy, Rick Murphy, who was teaching new Testament, and we actually got to read the Bible. Will:                       It's pretty cool. Frank:                   It was cool for me. Will:                       Interesting. During your, during your time at Holy Cross, what was your favorite memory? Frank:                   (laughs) I kissed my wife up on the top of the hill. Will:                       Very nice, and the rest is history. Very nice. Last one here, what is the best part about being a Holy Cross alumnus? Frank:                   Well, there's a bunch of great things like this honorary degree. It's been very humbling and tremendous. The kind of recognition I still get around the Chaplain's Office, I get a lot of recognition and appreciated up here. I don't know if you know this, I get a little card so I can go into the heart center and work out. Will:                       Oh, I want one of those, I don't even have one. That's awesome. Frank:                   So I get a little card to go workout. But just honestly, the school has a great reputation in Worcester and so when people hear that you've gone to Holy Cross, that means something in this town. Will:                       Very nice. Thank you so much for coming, it was a great honor having you and to talk with you and learning more about your story, I really appreciate it. Frank:                   Well, thank you Will, I'm glad you put up the time here. Will:                       Of course. Of course. Maura:                 That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be Men and Women for and with Others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola "now go forth and set the world on fire". --- Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.