Podcast appearances and mentions of chris welcome

In this episode of Building Texas Business, I spoke with Mason Brady, founder and president of Brady CFO, about his entrepreneurial journey and the growth of his fractional CFO services firm. Mason shares how he transitioned from corporate CFO to entrepreneur after realizing the strong market demand for part-time CFO support among construction and agriculture businesses. Starting the business while supporting a family of five tested his comfort with risk and uncertainty. His firm now includes five CFOs who help businesses with revenues up to $75 million navigate financial decisions, capital access, and growth strategies. Brady CFO uses a unique team approach, pairing CFOs with analysts to deliver cost-effective services tailored to clients' needs. Recently relocated from California, Mason appreciates Texas's business-friendly environment and central location for serving clients nationwide. He focuses on helping entrepreneurs evolve as leaders while managing their growing companies, particularly in construction and agriculture where many face similar challenges around financial reporting and bonding requirements. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS I introduced Mason Brady, founder and president of Brady CFO, who shared his transition from a corporate CFO to an entrepreneur in the agriculture and construction sectors. Mason discussed the emotional and mental challenges of leaving a stable job, emphasizing the role of faith and family support in his decision-making process. We explored the importance of consistent sales activities for sustaining and growing a business, with Mason recommending that a significant portion of time be dedicated to new business development. Mason detailed Brady CFO's innovative business model, which pairs CFOs with South American financial analysts to optimize client service and provide cost-effective strategic financial services. The conversation included insights into the challenges faced by entrepreneurs in the construction industry, focusing on the transition from skilled professionals to business leaders and the importance of solid financial systems. Mason highlighted the need for effective delegation and trust in leadership roles within agribusiness, discussing the development of middle management and his experiences in Texas. We also talked about the advantages of operating a business in Texas, emphasizing its central location, economic activity, and more minimized regulations compared to other states. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Brady CFO GUESTS Mason BradyAbout Mason TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: Mason, I want to welcome you to Building Texas Business. Thanks for taking the time to come on the podcast, really looking forward to hearing what you have to tell us Awesome. Mason: Thank you, chris, really appreciate this opportunity. Chris: So let's just start introducing yourself to the listeners. Tell us about yourself and about Brady. Mason: CFO self. I'm a husband and father to three little girls, so that's the biggest priority of my life. I was just telling Chris earlier that we celebrated my three-year-old's birthday this past weekend and she had a blast. That did the trampoline and pizza party thing and she had a wonderful Saturday. So that was awesome. And from a more professional perspective, I started Brady CFO about three years ago. Yeah, roughly right around three years ago. That really in just seeing a need in the marketplace that I was a corporate CFO for agribusinesses and I had friends that would reach out and ask for help within their construction or ag businesses. They really just needed some fractional CFO support. That they had an existing accounting team, but that accounting team wasn't really leveling up to help them with the decisions that they need to make, whether it be, you know, hey, we want to buy out our partners, how much should we pay? How should we finance it? Hey, we want to go buy this building. How should we do it? You know, we want to buy out our competitor, or we need help getting access to capital all these multitude of requests that they had. But they certainly didn't need a full-time CFO and so I helped them part-time but really it just kind of exploded on me that within about three months of helping friends on the side, I was making more money on the side than I was in my full-time job and said, oh wow, there's actually a business here to be had, and so eventually decided to go full-time with it, and I've been growing it since then. So now this past weekend we're now a team of five total CFOs. We specialize in the ag and construction segments, and so we serve ag and construction-based companies with revenues up to 75 million and we come in as their part-time CFO, helping them with all the pain points I mentioned that you know. They need to look at potential investment opportunities. They want to bring in partners or buy out partners and want to figure out what's the right way to do that At least finance it. They want to figure out, you know, how to optimize their finances, and so we're the ones that ultimately can help solve those pain points for them. Chris: Very good, yeah, so first I can identify, I have two girls, so I'm a girl dad as well, and no better pleasure in life. And then you know I love hearing that you know this kind of just being entrepreneurial and, I guess, open to opportunities and seeing a gap where you could kind of step in and provide value to clients and small businesses, midsize businesses, and turn that into your own business, which is pretty cool. And I think what all entrepreneurs are kind of looking for right is where can they make a difference? Where's there a gap in the market? And so you said three years ago now tell us a little bit about you. Know. I guess you kind of had it going on the side, and that's not uncommon. Some entrepreneurs will say I kind of had a job and then I was doing this kind of side hustle and then that just kind of exploded. What was it like, I guess, to to go through the process mentally and emotionally, to go I'm going to leave the stable corporate job to kind of, you know, branch out on my own, because a lot of people are probably stuck, scared to make that decision. Let's talk a little bit about your process and what you might offer. Some advice to others who may be listening. Mason: Yeah, I think the path of me becoming a full-time entrepreneur it has been more of an emotional roller coaster of learning how to deal with fear and risk and being comfortable with it. You know, of living in a state of being comfortable with knowing that you're really not in control, which none of us are anyways, even in a W2 job, right, none of us are really in control, but there's some false sense of security that exists in a W2 job and you know, and just reckoning with that in your own heart. As to you know what that looks like. And yeah, it certainly was scary for me to have three young children and my wife doesn't work. I am the breadwinner, my wife is a stay-at-home mom and we generally wanted to maintain that lifestyle, just to be able to take care of our girls in that way. And so it definitely. Yeah, it was on my back, right, but you know, I say this, my, my personal faith is important to me, and so, you know, inherently I kind of knew that it wasn't all in my back, but yet at the same time, you know, as human nature is, we want to try to control things, and so it was scary, but I saw that the door was opening for me. It wasn't on my own, you know, doing that, obviously, I worked hard, but the door had opened to me that I'd personally prayed and I said, hey, if this is the path I'm supposed to go, it's going to be clear when you know, the answer to that was really clear when I started actually making more money on the side and I had more booked revenue than I did in my full-time job and said, okay, there's obviously something here that it's not. Like I have this little launch period where all of a sudden, I'm going to do a dip in income and try to figure it out. It's like, no, I've literally fully replaced the income and then some, I think we're good to go here, and so that was easier. Not everybody has that opportunity but, yeah, for me personally, it certainly was becoming comfortable with risk. That you know, that has been the journey over the past three years, and I think every entrepreneur is a bit on that journey of as an entrepreneur, you have to be comfortable with taking risk in a bigger way. That you know, especially, I come from an accounting background. Right, I'm a. You know, I was a CFO by trade, that I'm known for risk-taking. No, we generally are conservative decision-makers right, and I had to get comfortable with just, it's okay, get comfortable with fear. That's when the greatest growth happens. And you know, I heard somebody else like you and I are going to do a podcast swap. I heard somebody else say that you know, wealth is managed and conserved via diversification. Wealth is built when you go all in. You know and and it was like okay, well, if that's true, you know. Then I got to go all in and know that I got to go all in and that I'm burning the ships, and you know and just be comfortable with that. And so I began. That wasn't like a day one decision for me. I had to incrementally overcome some things to at that, but it was definitely a huge leap for me of doing that. But I would say to most people that you know it's going to end up being okay that you know all the fears that are in your head for something else. That's better because, as a result of that failure, that if you are good at what you do generally, it'll work out. Chris: Yeah, yeah, I mean it said you know, I guess, succinctly have faith in yourself, right, that you can do the job. The other thing I like about what I heard you say there was it's very rare for someone speaking of entrepreneurs, it's very rare for an entrepreneur to have it all figured out, to not be or be immune to risk, immune to the fear of taking the risk, right, that's the unicorn. The reality is that Almost every entrepreneur shares those fears. They may not want to talk about it until they've done it and then they can talk about it, but you're going to be scared, you're going to have some uncertainty and you're going to grow along with the process. Story may be told different ways of I wasn't sure, but I believed. Or if I didn't try it now, I never would. Mason: And who I was when I started as a business owner and leader versus who I am today is very different because we all evolve, so I think what I would tell entrepreneurs is even though you feel like you're alone, you're not. Chris: Many that have come before. You felt the same way. Yeah, and I would just encourage you're not right, many that have come before you felt the same way. Mason: Yeah, and I would just encourage there's not really a perfect time to start a business that people think, oh, like, at this age, I'll do it when the kids are out of school, or whatever the case is I actually advocate that. I, you know, being the breadwinner of my family, you know, and having, you know, three little kids to take care of it was a higher level of risk, right? Like I didn't have a safety net and that meant the decision-making that I was going to make I was going to focus on the top, like if I had to look at my calendar, I was going to focus on the top strategic priorities that were actually going to deliver a result for my time. Like I wasn't going to mess around because I didn't have the safety net, and so you know, the success of the business I think, has been built upon that. As to making the right decisions, because I didn't have any spare, you know, wiggle room in there for making a wrong one Right, and some of that's luck, some of it is just prioritizing time. I think that mentally we can get in our own way and so I encourage anybody, any listener, that there's no just because you can have a safety net later on in life or it can feel more comfortable. Sometimes entrepreneurship is pretty hard and to make the right decisions is pretty hard. Sometimes, when your back is against the wall, that's the most strategic, opportune time to actually do something, because your ability to fight your way out of that is actually better. Chris: It's really good. Let's go a little deeper on that, because I think you touched on something I think is so important, especially for someone that's starting out in a new business, and the one thing you hear almost universally is you're wearing many hats right in those early days and to your point, where you spend your time doing to make sure you are prioritizing your time in the right ways versus being distracted on the wrong things. Mason: Yep, I would say in any business starting out, I mean, making sure that you have tractions in your sales is critically important and you have to try to drive repetitive repeat sales. That and in order to do that's not just going to fall in your lap, you actually have to take action in doing that. And to the conclusion that I was going to have a weekly set of sales activities that I was going to do and that meant that you know whether it was activities on LinkedIn, whether it was people I was going to meet, who I was going to meet and making sure I was meeting with the right people and saying no to the wrong people. But I was going to commit to a consistent set of actions every week that I was going to prioritize, because even if I had book client work that you know could sustain me revenue wise, that can dry up Right. And so I never wanted to be in a position where, okay, we know that's going to dry up at some point and we don't have a solution to it, or we're going to have this big gap period, like it literally is when you're starting a business always be selling literally and make it a part of a routine, and I think for many people that are somewhat the artisan like, they're going and providing a service. So, whether it could be you know accounting or CFO work, it can be plumbers, it can be you know roofers. They may love doing the operational work themselves or that's what they're good at, and it's really easily mentally to go do what you're good at because that's what you're comfortable with. It's human nature, right, it's human nature. But sales is hard, regardless of whether you have a sales background or not. Sales is hard because you're putting yourself in uncomfortable situations where you're going to get told no, you're going to get told you're going to get rejected, and that is hard but it becomes easier through repetition and through repetition you're going to be able to define things better. You're not going to start perfect and just understand that. You're going to find your niche better. You're going to find who should I talk to better. Where am I going to get the greatest ROI for my time? But create a set of weekly activities I'd say, especially for somebody just starting out, that really needs to represent close to 40 to 50% of your time. Honestly, it needs to. You need to be making at least 40% of your calendar focused on new business development activities and just create that pipeline that's always flowing. And if you do that at least for me, that was a great success. Factor is just trying to implement that. Finally, and I think most people would agree, that is the way that you keep things rolling. Chris: Yeah, thank you for that. So let's talk a little bit about innovation, because you started out on your own. You said you now got five CFOs. How are you using technology or what are you doing to kind of be innovative, to kind of drive your business and grow it? Yeah, I would say. Mason: I mean, we're not heavy technology users in the sense of, yeah, like, we do use technology, but we're not necessarily taking technology to drive where we want to go and how we provide our services. I mean, I do think that there's opportunities in the space of AI to improve what we do 100%. I think what we're a bit unique in is you'll find out there and I think innovation can just come from seeing one way that everybody does something and trying to do it a different way. And I always worked for agribusiness firms that were always low margin and so from an overhead standpoint, you couldn't really staff up in a big way because you know, you didn't know when your next crop was going to, you know when you're going to have a hailstorm that was going to knock out your next crop, and you know and so you had to maintain a really lean overhead at all times. And just through a personal you know aspect my wife is from Chile, I've worked in South America, I can speak Spanish and all that, so I would actually contract, you know, a financial analyst and accountants out of South America, and I did that in corporate where, when I needed project support that I would go secure people from South America and I'd have them help me build financial models when I needed time to focus on other strategic objectives, and I would have them do that on my behalf rather than me getting stuck in Excel analysis and so like. Within our business you'll find a lot of fractional CFO firms where you're kind of you're buying the person of the fractional CFO themselves, you're buying the person, and we have a unique team approach to where every CFO is paired with an analyst and that way in our pricing we can deliver it at a more cost-effective rate to our clients. That ag and construction aren't historically, you know, high margin industries and so that way we can be most cost-effective and be value adding for the client. But we have a unique model in which the analyst does a lot of the Excel analysis, financial analysis work on behalf of the CFO, so the CFO can go actually work on strategic objectives with the client versus being stuck in financial analysis all day. And at least for us, that's what innovation looks like and we're driving that further in regards to setting up systematic ways that we deliver our services and rather than it just being that, hey, you're buying a person for an hourly rate, which I feel like a lot of our competitors do. We're trying to set up a systematic way that we deliver the services, along with a team approach, and that way it just it creates the greatest value add for the client. And so there's not a lot of technology in there, but we're just doing it different. That we feel like is, you know, it's all meant to be valuable to better fit our clients ultimately. Advert: Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom. And thanks for listening to the show. Chris:Yeah, so, like I said, you know, I agree I don't think innovation has to be wow always, but just maybe slightly different. Sounds like what you're talking about more is a value proposition, right, and that you're really getting a little team here or not just one person. I can see where that would be different and important to your clients. So you're in Houston. Let's talk a little bit about the advantages you see of being a business maybe not just in Houston, but in Texas the advantages that you think that's brought to you and how you're trying to capitalize on those. Mason: Yeah, so I think I should start a little bit backwards. Originally from California, so I'm one of those statistics right that I moved the business to Texas. I literally picked up my LLC and I converted it to a Texas based LLC. So I'm all in on this. Chris: Welcome. We have, man. We have done so many conversions of California LLCs to Texas LLCs since 2020. Mason: It is crazy, yeah, it's real Still have family in California. We still have many clients in California. There's a lot of ag in California construction as well that we will continue to serve. That still believe that while the state is difficult to operate a business in, that also creates opportunities because there will be people that leave and yet there's still demand for those services and those products and goods. So yeah, for me being in Houston it's really actually great because this is a booming state in terms of its economic activity, especially on the construction side of things. But from an ag standpoint too, it can be a little bit tough not to be, you know, in the ag segments that we serve. You know where we're being able to go out to the ranches and the citrus groves and all that and then the farms themselves on a regular basis in Houston. The fact that we can serve clients in California, go hop on a plane, get out to Fresno, california really quickly, but at the same point in time there's a ton of ag in Florida, georgia and we can go hop to those areas. We happen to work with a lot of fresh produce clients and fresh produce distributors and so those are all over. But the fact that Texas is a central point and has a lot of economic activity where a lot of those goods and services are coming in, and so, while may not necessarily be that all the products and goods are grown here, the distribution of them is happening in a very significant way here, and so the fact that this state is so central to everything, it's just, yeah, it's been actually a blessing, because if I was all the way in California and I wanted to go to a trade show all the way, you know in Georgia, you know that whole lag of time in between, you know travel time and just killing a day worth of travel, et cetera, et cetera, when right now, I can get to most places within two and a half hours. You know the United States, and that's a beautiful thing in terms of building relationships and being on site and the fact that, yeah, the Texas economy is booming. Nonetheless, that you know it's real here, yeah, it's. We actually had one of our CFOs that moved from California to Oklahoma and he just said, yeah, it's amazing, just the lack of I shouldn't say lack, but the more minimized regulation by comparison to other states, and how it just creates additional business opportunities. It's a wonderful blessing. So it's great for us and, yeah, allows us to be centralized, but at the same point, yeah, it allows us to work with Texas and the clients all over too. Chris: Right, you mentioned, I guess, one of the CFOs that you brought on. How are you going about evaluating whether these additional CFOs align with your vision of the company and can, not just from performance but from your ethical standards, which you obviously led with in the very beginning of our conversation? So what are you doing to kind of vet these people out, to make sure you're making the best decision you can and bringing them on board? Yep. Mason: We definitely, through our hiring process we do a very significant case study approach and even in the person's background we want to see that they're. You know, for me it's a personal choice to each person building their own practice or firm in this way. If the background is heavy public accounting, you know that they work for a CPA firm for most of their life. It's probably not a fit for us, because we actually want to make sure that we get people that have been operators inside a business that have experience helping to deal with the issues of whether it be a family transition. You know growing a business and you know wearing many hats, because it's rare that if you have a full-time job in a $20 million revenue business that you're not going to be doing you're going to be doing multiple things, I should say, and you know. And so we want to see that they have operator experience in that regards. But we put them through some significant case studies to really evaluate, because it's unique that many of the business owners that we're working with we say that we work with businesses up to 75 million in total aggregate revenues, because we find that's a perfect segment where they can really use a part-time CFO. They don't quite need a full-timer yet. They can use a part-time on a reoccurring basis. But what's interesting is we're watching the evolution of the entrepreneur themselves as well, or the founder. I got to tell a little bit of my story but even though that they have the CEO title, they're not quite fulfilling that CEO role fully and we're helping them navigate that and there's a lot of emotional rollercoaster that goes with that and so we actually evaluate. We just did interviews with two construction-focused CFOs and that's another part of it too is we wanna see deep industry experience within the industries we serve. But we ask them that, hey, if you were faced with this similar issue we just worked through with a previous client where it's a husband-wife team and we literally just saw the husband wife get in a fight with each other over you know, something they're talking about in the business. We say, how would you handle this? And we want to hear how they would handle the emotional aspects of it from an empathetic standpoint, like, can you actually navigate that as a leader and still come out, you know, on the right way, that you're not going to be overly technical about it. You're going to help them, you know, relationally, work through it and help them move in the right direction, see the bigger picture. And so that's a lot of how we're doing it, that we are working with clients where, again, there's just emotional dynamics, where we're seeing that the entrepreneur themselves is having to evolve in a very significant way. They are not some major corporate CEO, they wouldn't tell you that they are. They're evolving as a person and so being there with them through that evolution and kind of helping to almost be somewhat of a guiding coach too, is what we see in our role and you know that's what we're looking for in our people that they can help do that too and help navigate sticky situations. Chris: Well, very similar kind of parallel seats that we sit in, cause we I find myself in very similar times with a lot of our clients where, you're right, they're evolving through the process, as I mentioned, and they were really good probably at sales or something with an idea, but they all of a sudden have a CEO title and helping them along that journey and whether that's eventually getting a good operator underneath them to really run the business so they can focus on what they you know they enjoy doing the most that made the business successful. Those are fun places to be, to kind of be an extension of that team. Right, let's talk a little bit about your clients. I mean what you know, what are some of the things you're helping them through, some of the challenges. You're seeing any kind of trends of where people are. You know, maybe, what are they excited about, what are they concerned about? You know, how are you helping them kind of navigate through both of those emotions? Mason: Yeah, I like to tell this story because literally you can insert the name and this more specifically applies to, like our construction clients, but you can insert any one of our client names in here and it literally is the same situation. This is the trend that we see. That you know, joe started a construction business that he was. He started general contracting business. He was a project manager for another big general contractor in town felt like, hey, I can do this on my own, I want to go do this on my own. He got the licenses and started bidding on some work and started winning the work and started, you know, actually managing the projects, working with the subcontractors, et cetera, you know, fulfilling the, you know all the work requirements for the job and kept growing. You know, eventually hired some PMs underneath him to handle some additional jobs, but knew that he needed to take care of accounting and so he's got QuickBooks and you know he's heard stories. But he needs somebody that he can trust to handle the day-to-day transactional entry and that he's got to keep things lean. So he asked his wife, his mom, his sister, his aunt, somebody that generally has some knowledge of QuickBooks and coding transactions. He asked him to take care of his books and he can do that for a couple of, a few years and then all of a sudden say Joe, you know, he gets this opportunity at the university or this big hospital, that this big remodel project where he can put his banner up. Everybody can know it's his brand that's doing this work and it can be a real showcase project. And he goes to bonding. He goes to his bonding agent to you know, make sure they can be bonded for the job, and wants to put a bid and proposal forward on it. And the buying company says no way, absolutely not put a bid and proposal forward on it. And the buying company says no way, absolutely not One. The financial reports that you give us show that you are an absolute financial mess. Whenever we ask for those financial reports, you send them two to three months later, so we never get anything on time. And when you actually do send them, the quality of them not just from a financial performance standpoint but your accounting standards and your record keeping is absolute junk. Like we can't really tell what's going on underneath the hood here, but of the little that we can tell, you're not doing that great. Insert Brady, cfo, we help to make sure that you know you are never denied by bonding again, that when you want to go pursue that high profile job, we make sure that you get the yes, and that's done through various ways that we make sure that you do have liquidity, so, whether that's working with banks or other you know capital providers, to make sure that, hey, we get you liquidity so that the bonding companies will like that you have a little bit of backup. But then, yeah, we're navigating that. How do we get your accounting in good order to actually that it's in a useful state? And then how do we optimize your financial performance to where, whoever's provided that capital, we can make sure that there's a good ROI on that too whether you're having to pay down debt, can you actually pay down the debt, et cetera, et cetera. But through that process we're seeing a significant trend that a lot of construction companies right around 15, 20 million mark they're going through an ERP implementation, as an example, just to get their accounting records in a good state, and we're helping to navigate that. We don't like to be deep within the accounting itself, but we certainly serve it because we understand it's a means to an end that once we have good financial records and we make sure that there's some liquidity in place. Then we're talking about, okay, where do we want this business to strategically go, that this is a $15 million business now, but how do we make this a $50 million business? And then how do we make it a hundred million dollar business? And we're creating these long-term plans with the ownership to do that. And so that story I told about Joe though literally you can insert several of our client different names in that and that is the consistent theme across the board. And we find that when we bring that up in a sales call too, that is usually what's being seen for most of our clients that we work with. Chris: That's what's keeping them up at night and again. And when you solve that problem right then, now you have a client for life. Yep, Yep, that's great. That's the goal. Let's talk just a little bit about leadership. How would you describe your leadership style and how do you think it's kind of evolved over time? Mason: Yeah, especially as an entrepreneur, I would say that like I have a visionary side to me and that is important, that I think every entrepreneur has to have that visionary kind of fulfillment and believing in what's possible and what can be created. But at the same point in time you still have to put in the operator mode at times, right, like you just have to get stuff done. And that aspect of learning to delegate, I mean I was a corporate CFO so I had teams of people. But again, in an agribusiness environment you're running lean, and so usually what you see in an agribusiness environment is that you have these C-suite leaders or these VPs that they're excellent, but then generally there's not a good layer of middle management below that. That it's basically you have a variety of accounting assistants and they're all rolling up and with the intention that, yeah, you're keeping your labor and your overhead costs low, you know, and so you have one kind of rain maker up at top, but then you have a lot of people that need a lot of additional skill and development reporting into you, and so naturally you're kind of having to manage and keep the reins pretty tight. Right that you're having to be a little bit more controlling to make sure that things are going well and within this business. On the other hand, we're managing other CFOs right Like we're managing, you know, highly qualified people and coming to the conclusion that, yeah, I don't need to be involved in as much. Right Like I. It's important to trust but verify. But you have to be really good at delegating. But delegating doesn't mean you show them once and then you hand it off and expect why didn't that not get done a month later? Why did it not get done the way I wanted it to? To me. Getting really good at delegation I've had to evolve at this is, you know, spend some time with them, show them, make sure that it's being done over the course of a couple of weeks or a couple of months correctly, and then you're good to go and you can leave it and you can touch base and say you're accountable to this. Now I've given you all the training. You know what to do. Be careful about just giving somebody something and expecting that it's going to be done the way that you want it to be done. That's hardly ever the way it works. But you got to be really good at delegating and getting things off your plate as quickly as possible, right. Chris: Yep, very true, very true, let's. Let's try a little bit, since you're new to Texas, places you've gone, experiences you've had since coming to Texas that stand out in your mind. Mason: Yeah, I mean I just the generally friendly nature of people. I mean it's a part of the reason that we love living here and that we wanted to move here is, you know, you walk down the streets and people just say hi, and that doesn't necessarily exist in other states, where people are friendly and just say hi. And we got to be. You know, we got to witness or experience our first hurricane last summer and I couldn't believe the resiliency of people where I mean, yeah, the day after the hurricane people still had to work. Oh, like you go into Barnes and Noble and like people are literally plugging their laptop into the corner little, you know. You know electrical outlet and making sure that they could still get work done and send emails that day, like you're just back at it. And the nature of that type of stuff happens here so often that you know from California, yeah, you get wildfires there's that's a whole nother story of how it can be managed or not but you get wildfires but you don't really get natural disasters that just kind of come and, you know, uproot your life for a bit, but they happen so often in Texas has such, you know, crazy, you know up and down weather people's resiliency. It's pretty amazing in Texas of just yep, we had that terrible storm yesterday. Well, we're back at it tomorrow, you know, and it's just. This is life and we got to get back to it and, yeah, I think the friendliness and people's resiliency here is is a pretty, pretty big thing that we've noticed. Yeah, that's great. I love that perspective. Chris: I think those of us that have been here our whole life maybe lose sight of that sometimes. But yeah, it's good to get that perspective from you. So again, new to the area. But I ask everyone this so it'll be good, because you're kind of a guinea pig or fresh in this, do you? Mason: since getting here is your tex-mex or barbecue tex-mex yeah, that I do love good barbecue, but tex-mex I. We have all kinds of mexican food in california, right. I mean, I think the population in california is good 60 to 70 percent hispanic but tex-mex has a different, unique flavor to it that I grew up on mexican food. Because of that growing up where I did, yeah, and yeah, it's kind of natural to make that migration, I love it. So, yeah, I love a good queso. Chris: Oh man, I have it for my own heart. Yes, okay, well, yeah, really appreciate the time. Mason, love hearing your story and where you're taking this business. I definitely agree. There's a lot of opportunity for the type of services that you're providing, because there's a ton of companies that fit within that space. Again, I know that because that's part of the market we serve in, that kind of middle market there. So congratulations on taking the risk. How it's going so far? Mason: Yeah, no, I just appreciate being able to come on here, chris, and talk with you. It's fun to come and share the story. But, yeah, I just appreciate the opportunity to share with your audience as well. Chris: Well, that's great. Well, we enjoyed having you on and I look forward to seeing you soon. Take care, that's good, awesome. Mason: Thanks, chris. Have a good one. Outro And there we have it Another great episode. Don't forget to check out the show notes at boyermillercom forward slash podcast and you can find out more about all the ways our firm can help you at boyermillercom. That's it for this episode. Have a great week and we'll talk to you next time. Special Guest: Mason Brady.

Max and Chris Welcome the Incredible Taner Hassan!

On this episode, my guest is Barbara from No Name Kitchen, an independent movement working alongside the Balkans and the Mediterranean routes to promote humanitarian aid and political action for those who suffer the difficulties of extreme journeys and violent push-backs.Their actions include medical care, distributions of food and clothes, legal support and the denunciation of abuses at the borders, where thousands of human beings keep suffering violence, fatigue and sickness during their migratory processes.No Name Kitchen was born in Belgrade by winter 2017 when a group of volunteers started cooking in Belgrade alongside the thousands of people who were fending for themselves after the closure of the Hungarian frontier. Since then, NNK supports those who suffer the lack of safe and legal pathways, collecting testimonies and denouncing the systematic use of institutional violence at the borders.Show NotesNo Name Kitchen: What's in a Name?Social Media as a Tool for OrganizingThe KitcheneersIt's a Border Crisis, not a Migration CrisisWhy do People Seek Asylum in EuropeHow the EU is Breaking its Own LawsBorder Violence in the BalkansWhat are Pushbacks?The Silence of Big-Name NGOsFrom Hospitality to Hostility: A Story in KladusaMigrants as Puppets in Political WarsThe EU's Racist Immigration ActionsThe Lives of NNK's Guests After the BorderHomeworkNo Name Kitchen Website - Facebook - Instagram - TwitterVolunteer w/ No Name KitchenLatitude Adjustment Program Podcast episode w/ No Name KitchenTranscript[00:00:00] Chris: Welcome, Barbara, to the End of Tourism Podcast. Thank you for joining us on behalf of No Name Kitchen. [00:00:07] Barbara: Thank you very much, Chris.[00:00:10] Chris: I'd love it if we could start off with you telling us where you find yourself today, both geographically and perhaps emotionally as well. What does the world look like for you?[00:00:21] Barbara: So, actually in a very interesting place because I am visiting one friend who was living with me in Bosnia, who's one of the persons that started with me and developed with me the project of No Name Kitchen in Bosnia. And so I'm visiting her that we didn't see her for the last four years because we're all the time very busy with our lives and with our different projects.So I'm here with her these days with plan to head to Croatia next week. Because the political context changed in the borders a little bit in the last month and now there are people on the move in that are passing through Rijeka, this one Croatian city, and I want to go to see the situation there.And then maybe, if I find the time, I will also head Kladusa and Bihac that are the border areas of Bosnia where I used to live in the past and where I spend a lot of time with my life there. [00:01:14] Chris: Mm. Interesting. And you're from Spain originally, is that correct? [00:01:18] Barbara: Yeah, I'm from Spain and normally I, I spend the most of the time in Spain in the last years because sometimes you need a break from the border. Emotionally I feel very well as well because I'm with my friend who is a brilliant person and I adore her. She was a perfect colleague you know, when you're at the border, the life is very tough. You see a lot of people suffering.But having her as a colleague, it was beautiful thing because we gave too much support to each other. [00:01:44] Chris: What a blessing. What a blessing. Mm. [00:01:47] Barbara: I was very lucky. [00:01:49] Chris: Well, I know that a lot of the work that No Name Kitchen does is based in the Balkans and as well in Ceuta in Spain. And we'll come to those regions momentarily.But I'd like to ask you first why no name Kitchen? Why a kitchen without a name? [00:02:07] Barbara: It's a very nice story because No Name Kitchen was born in a very informal way. You know, it is not actually an organization. It's a movement of people. And there are different organizations registered in different countries, but itself No Name Kitchen is a movement of people helping people. And in 2017, so let's make a little bit of context. In 2016, European Union sent money to Turkey to close the border of the Balkans. Yeah. So, in the beginning of 2017, in the winter, many people found themselves in Serbia. They were trying to migrate to go to some country in Europe, and then they found themselves in Serbia with the borders of European Union closed. And many people like were activists that went to Greece to help people on the move because they knew the situation or what was happening since 2015.You probably remember in 2015 all this amount of people that were going from Turkey to somewhere in Europe to ask for asylum, to seek international protection. So many people were in Greece helping. They got information that in the city center of Belgrade, which is the capital city of Serbia, they were like more than 1000 people, mainly from Afghanistan at that moment, many of them minors with no parents, living in the old train station in a very bad conditions. And the weather was horrible. It was super cold. It was probably one of the coldest winters of the last years. So they just went there. They got some food from an organization. They went there and they saw a horrible situation where no one of the big institutional organizations were helping.So then, they, with these posts that they had and asking for, help in social media, in their own social media, people start sending money and they start cooking right away. So, then they found this group of activists from many countries found themselves cooking every day and also together with people on the move and distributing food every day, every night.And then one day, they were like, this seems like an organization. We actually are kind of organization. And then one guy, one from Afghanistan, he wrote on the wall with a spray kitchen. No, because it's like, we have a kitchen, we have an organization, but we have no name. And then it's the same guy.He wrote "No Name," and then it was like, "No Name Kitchen." And it just stay like this. I think it's amazing. It's a very pure name and it really shows what is the way No Name Kitchen movement works. Its informal way of people cooperating and doing things together and helping each other.[00:04:31] Chris: And so in that context, it was a spontaneous organization of people, or how did they, I mean, obviously people heard about this, but how did they come to organize together? [00:04:41] Barbara: Social media is most instant thing, right? So, they opened this facebook profile, and then they say, what is going on. Some journalists started going there because these activists started talking about the situation. So, journalism and photojournalists went there and start showing the images. Mm-hmm. Oh, because it was really like minus 20 degrees and things like that. And people were living in the old train station and were using this wood from the old train station that has this liquid that is toxic.So it was pretty awful. And also at the same time, the activists start hearing all these stories about the pushbacks, which is, yeah, something I would keep denouncing, since then, that is when people try to enter European Union, police will push them back to Serbia with violence, which is totally illegal.So yeah, it was just people that were in Greece trying to help people in Greece. Finally, everybody knows everybody in this activist world, and if you don't know anyone, then you contact someone and then this person will tell you, "Ah, there is this group of people doing that."Maybe you're interested. And then with the Facebook, they started to ask for donations. They started to call for more people to go and help because the situation was a big emergency and needed more, more people. Some other people will give interviews on newspapers, for example. I was not there at the moment. I arrived some months later. And how I met No Name Kitchen is because one girl told her situation to one Spanish newspaper. I read this interview. I found like amazing what they're doing. I found them on the social media and I contacted No Name Kitchen. And then I head to Belgrade few months after. So yeah, spontaneously. [00:06:11] Chris: Within the kitchens themselves, if we can call it that, within the No Name Kitchens, what kind of people end up showing up?Are these people who are already a part of the No name Kitchen Network? Or are they local people as well? [00:06:24] Barbara: Well, we call ourselves "kitcheners." It's many different kind of people. Like really it's, it's people. People want to help. People are good, despite all the politics that surround us, there is a lot of beautiful people in this world, and they can be someone who is. Retired and he was a lawyer in his life and now he finished his work and he's 66 years old and he wants to do something and he goes to Serbia and he spends there two months. He can be someone that's 22 years old and is doing an internship for the university and decided instead of doing a very easy internship, they will come with us and face what is really the situation in Europe? It's a very wide movement of people. Some of them can come to the borders and we have a policy of minimum one month cause it makes everything easier for the work, right? But then also a kitchener is a person that is in his home or her hometown gathering beautiful clothes to send to the border so people can dress nicely and is a person that is making some event in her or his town to raise money to share, to send to the activities. And there's really a lot of people, because many people are good and many people wanna help. They understand we cannot really be living in this Europe that they are making for us, the politicians. No, we need a more human place to live. Yeah. It's true. As you mentioned before, that is more people from the south of Europe and Germany also, not so much from the north of Europe.[00:07:45] Chris: Speaking of the issues in the Balkans, in between Serbia and Turkey and Greece, of course. Perhaps for our listeners, if you could, perhaps there's a way of summarizing briefly the main issues that are arising in Southern Europe regarding these immigration crises.Why is this happening? What are the major positions of the European Union, of organizations like No Name Kitchen, and what does that dynamic look like? From a distance, [00:08:15] Barbara: So first, I wanted to tell you in No Name Kitchen we don't say "migration crisis" because there are not really so many people who are migrating.So the crisis has been it's a border crisis, a political crisis. It's a humanitarian crisis. There are not so many migrants. And if the borders will be open, all this mess will not be happening. Right? So we don't call it migration crisis. So, basically according to the European Union law, if you wanna apply for asylum, if you come from a country that is in war or a country with a dictatorship, that when you complain about something or you can see yourself in jail from a country in conflict or whatever or you're from LGBTQ++ if you wanna apply for asylum is very, very few chances that you can get any visa to travel to Europe. So imagine you're in Syria, you're in Afghanistan, you're in Iraq, you're in Morocco, and you wanna apply for asylum to come to Europe or to get any visa that will allow you to come to Europe by plane.It's very, very, very few chances that they will give you any visa to come. But the European Union law also says that if you're in the European Union soil and you apply for asylum and you apply for international protection, it's your right that the country where you are, it starts a procedure to see and to understand if you really need this protection, which long legal procedure.And it takes a while. Yeah. So that basically is one of the main reasons why people are seeing themselves crossing borders in irregular manners and seeing themselves risking their lives as it just happened now from Libya, this shipwreck in Greece. So people are coming from Libya to Italy and now.A lot of people have died and others are in centers in Greece now. So this is the main point why people will cross the borders in irregular manners. But then there is a problem and it's like European Union is not following its own rules. So then when a person arrives in, for example, let's say Greece, let's say Bulgaria, I say this because they are more in the south, let's say Croatia or Hungary, countries that are bordered with other their countries, the people arrived there and then when they tried to apply for asylum, the most of common thing that can happen to them. And what we've been denouncing since the very beginning because people were explaining to us and we saw it was something very systematically. And it's something that is happening on a daily basis is that police take them back to this other country, which means a pushback. We call this a "pushback."And many times these pushbacks, which are illegal according to the European Union law, come with a lot of violence. Many times the police will steal the things from the people on the move. And many times they take, for example, their shoes when it's winter and then people to walk in the snow in the winter without shoes until they arrive to a safe place.So this is basically why people are crossing borders in this ways. Then another question that is very common, why a person will not stay, for example, in Bosnia, will not stay in Serbia, in North Macedonia, which are safe countries, which are very nice countries. Yeah. So, the problem is that if you look to the numbers, there are very few people, that get asylum there.So, there is people that tried too because it's like, okay, I'm in a safe place. There's no work here, and it's a beautiful place. But then if you look to the numbers, there are very, very, very few people every year that can access asylum. And while also you're waiting for your asylum to proceed, normally they keep you in those camps that really don't have the basic conditions to really have a decent life. I mean, these refugee camps, transit camps; it depends how they them in each country. [00:11:54] Chris: Wow. Thank you. And the major sites that no-name Kitchen operates in include Ceuta in Spain, which surprisingly, is actually on the African mainland. Mm-hmm. As well as in the Balkans in Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Patras, Greece. [00:12:13] Barbara: Patras has just finished. Right. Basically many people are not going anymore to Greece as before because in Greek, the polices became very tough against people who are migrating. So, many times people are forced to be in detention centers, like in detention camps while they apply for asylum, while they wait for the asylum to proceed. It's like really a jail. Mm-hmm. So now many people go through Bulgaria and then Serbia.So in Greece there are not so many people anymore as it used to be. And we just close few weeks ago. But we're always open that there are more people start coming to Greece that we can reopen any project there. Okay. [00:12:47] Chris: And these other sites then in Ceuta as well as Serbia, Bosnia, and Bulgaria, these places are so important for No Name Kitchen in part because this is essentially where the movement of people flows through?[00:13:01] Barbara: We are basically in the borders because we do many things, not every day. We share food, clean clothes, provide tools that people can have hot showers, because also the many people don't have access to water. We have a health project that if someone needs a paid treatment because it's like, for example, dentist or for the eyes.And then in the hospital they don't wanna to give any of these treatments and we pay for the private doctors and so on. So it's many activities that we do every day about spending time with people in the movement, listening and spending and sharing our stories. But then all this also bring us to see how much their rights are attacked all the time.So then the aim is to denounce. The aim is that we don't need not to give this charity because there will be justice and then people don't need anymore. So the aim is to denounce what is happening all the time. So, in the place where we're is basically border areas. Mm-hmm. The border areas is where you can see how Europe is really not respecting the human rights.And because quite tough places, there is not so many movements on these areas. So for example, the humanitarian aid is pretty much criminalized. So normally police will disturb you just because you're giving jackets to people. Mm. So it's are places that are strategically for denouncing. And since it just started in Serbia, first it started in Belgrade, but three months after the team moved to Sid, which is in the border with Croatia because many people were there. And it was a point where you could really denounce on the pushbacks from Croatia. So then, all the other projects have been going very much together with the idea of reporting the border violence.Yeah. Mm. And in Ceuta, Spain, which is bordered with Morocco. It's like another border for people because even if it's a Spain, people are not allowed to take a ferry very easily to the mainland, it's very difficult. So there is a lot of bureaucratic problems in the middle, like barriers that are being pushed to the people, so then they don't have the chance to cross legally to the mainland.So many people also risk their life there. And at the same time, sometimes there are pushbacks from Ceuta to Morocco. We've denounced the pushbacks of minors and actually together with other organizations from Spain. And actually the former delegate of the government got investigated for that. And they are under, I dunno how you say in English, like invest. [00:15:27] Chris: Investigations. [00:15:29] Barbara: Yeah. So basically border areas are very much important for what we wanna denounce. Mm. And now we're starting operating in Ventimiglia, Italy, which even inside of Italy is very near France.And we visited the place there and then we saw how there are also pushbacks from France. So this is another place that it could, it could be interesting to denounce, because many, many times people would think like, ah, but this is happening there in Croatia and Serbia you know, like, Serbia is not European Union, so people sometimes think that when we are talking about the pushbacks and all this violence, like very far from us, and it's difficult to make people understand that it's actually with the money that comes from the European Union. That means that if you are from the European Union or you're working here and paying taxes here, your taxes are used to pay to torture people, basically.No. Mm wow. So it's also nice to be inside of Europe to show how this violence is systematic in the different borders. [00:16:23] Chris: Right. And in the context of these pushbacks I imagine they're happening in all different contexts and circumstances. Could you give us a little bit of an idea of what that looks like?I mean, I imagine a few different things. I imagine that people are in detention centers, people are in refugee camps. I imagine that in some instances people are simply on the street and then perhaps in others trying to get a meal. [00:16:51] Barbara: I mean, we don't see the pushbacks. Pushbacks are hidden. And also we are at the other side of the borders. We only can meet people after they got pushed-back.. Yeah. Mm. Okay. So for example, you're in Serbia and this person tells you, like, I just been pushback from Hungary.We're not in the border area. You cannot be at the border. We're in different towns near the border areas. Ok. So a pushback is like a person tries to cross the border in different ways. For example, walking the forest, hidden. It's very common.So these are the stories that people tell to us. And then at some points, police see them in maybe in Hungary or maybe in Bulgaria, or maybe in Croatia. Those are all European Union countries. And then either the police or it can be also neighbors that they believe they're patriots, they'll call the police.Mm-hmm. You can see the people on the move walking and then the police will can arrive there and can take the people back to the border by cars. Many times they need to sign papers that they don't know what is written on these papers. Many times they get lied by the police telling, like, if you sign this paper, you can access to asylum.And actually you're signing a paper that is making you a punishment for something or you're signing that you want to really go back to the other countries, so, you're signing something that you don't know. Many times people get put into detention places. It's very common in Bulgaria and in Croatia for example.And then when they leave these detention places, they are told that they need to pay for their days they've been sleeping there for the accommodation on the food, which is like normally according to what people explain to us, accommodation on food are awful. Many times, not even enough food. And many times we're talking that those are children or very young people, as well.And then police will take them to the border and then force them to come back to the country that is not European Union, which means maybe Bosnia, maybe Serbia, or maybe Turkey if they're in Bulgaria. And many times this comes with very huge violence. As you can see in our websites, we speak often about this. No Name Kitchen created one Network that is called Border Violence Monitoring Network. Border Violence Monitoring Network. Now we are not anymore part of it since last month, because we will report in other ways by ourselves and with other different partners. But there you can find all the testimonies we've been gathering since 2017.And it's how the people describe to us what happens to them. Many times, you can't really see, because many times the people describe to you one situation and then they show you their back and in their back you see the marks of the batons or the marks of sticks or things like that, so it's very obvious to see that the person is injured. Many times people can come with blood or with bruises in their faces because the police did them in their faces. Wow. And then other of the things that is very common is to steal their belongings. So like this, you make more difficult for them to continue their trip because then they take their phones, their clothes, money.So then if you see yourself, for example, in Serbia, again with no phone, with no money, with no shoes, with no basic clothes, then you cannot continue your trip. You need to find a way to get money again. You need to find, like, for example, that your family sends to you and then you can buy another phone and then you can buy new shoes.So you can continue, at some point, your way to try to ask for international protection to some European Union country. Wow. Wow. [00:20:11] Chris: I guess there's this aspect of the state that seems so deeply involved in the suppression and repression of these movements, especially from asylum seekers, right?Mm-hmm. And I think this is something that you hear about quite a bit in many parts of the world where there are these border crises, right? In regards to people who live in the borderlands who are for whatever reason against the movement or flows of people in this regard against asylum seekers in this obviously ends up or can end up with not just hostility, but violence, racism, et cetera.And I'm also curious about the possibility of hospitality in these contexts. And certainly no name kitchen appears to take on that role and that responsibility quite a bit. And it's one of the main themes of this podcast, as well, is hospitality. And I'm reminded of this story that, some years ago and at the beginning of the war in Syria around 2015, 2016, I heard a rumor that Syrian refugees were hiding in the abandoned houses in my grandparents' villages in northern Greece, right on the border with North Macedonia in the daytime and waiting until night to cross the border, mostly to avoid capture and persecution at the hands of either Greek or Macedonian authorities. And last year I was visiting my grandmother there. She confirmed the story and said that this 85 year old woman, she left her house in the daytime, in the same village, with trays and trays of food and jars of water to offer these travelers before they moved along.Since no name Kitchen relies largely on donations, I'm wondering about this notion of old time hospitality as opposed to the kind of industrial hospitality we hear about or we see in the hotels. One of the themes of this season is also about what kind of old time hospitality still exists in Europe, and I'm wondering what you and your team might have seen in this regard?[00:22:29] Barbara: so, this is a very interesting question because things have changed so much during the years, and basically because the authorities have criminalized so much. The people on the move in general, like being a migrant is like being a criminal according to general speech from the politicians, which comes from the European Union. Mm-hmm. And at the same time, it's being criminalized. The help. Humanitarian help is being criminalized. So imagine for example, I wanna tell you the story in Bosnia, because Bosnia is the project where I spent the most of my time in the last years. When I arrived in Bosnia, in Kladusa, that is in the north of Bosnia near Croatia. It was middle of 2018 and people will be very nice. And then people will be very nice with people on the move. So people on the move did not have a place where to stay cause there was no camp created there. And the mayor of the town say that they can use this field and stay. So there was a field. And then like independent organizations or independent movements like No Name Kitchen or others will be building tents, will be providing blankets and showers and so on, because the institutional organizations were doing pretty much nothing.And at the moment, they were like around 1000 people. There, it was already very difficult to cross and there were already a lot of pushbacks, so it was really difficult to cross. And some people stayed there for two years. So imagine how many wow pushbacks can it be that people can stay there up to two years.And the local people were also very nice. They will go to this camp, which is called... to this field. And will bring food, will bring clothes, will spend their cooking together, time with people because they were, lot of families, a lot of children from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Morocco.And so. So it was actually very nice to see. And also from our side with the local people. Local people really welcome us very nicely, because they knew that we are going there to help and they were actually very worried to see all these people in the move suffering so much. You know, because also, it's very hard for them.You have to understand that in Bosnia was a very bad, cruel war, not so long time ago. Right. When you see yourself, that you need to see how children are walking in the night pretty much cold because they were just pushed back with their families. And then you see people with bruises in their faces and things like that.It is also very hard for the Bosnian people. Mm-hmm. But despite that, they were very welcoming and very nice. When the months start passing, the police start criminalizing the humanitarian aids. So, that means that, for example, there was this family that had some people in the move living in their place for free and then the police put them a fine of like, it was like 1000-2000 thousand Euro, which is lot of money for Bosnian income.Then if you have a bar and people can enter your bar, police will go to disturb you. So then in many bars, it started to be written and which is very sad to say and to imagine, but this happens, "migrants not allowed," in the door. Mm, [00:25:23] Chris: because the local people were also being harassed or under threat as a result.[00:25:28] Barbara: So the police will disturb very much the owners of the bars, right. ...where they welcomed people on the move. And then with the time also, because there are many places that do not accept people on the move. Then if you accept people on the move, many people will be there because there is not so many places anymore where they can spend the day.Like, having a coffee, being a pretty woman. So the criminalization of the people on the move started, like actually when the money from European Union came and then a camp was built, finally. A lot of money came. The institutional organizations obviously took over this money to build the camp, and then this speech started because there were like fights, who is going to manage the camps and so on. Then, for example, as it happens everywhere, because this is not exclusively in Kladusa, as it happens everywhere, whenever there are any elections, migrants are used for getting votes. No. So, for example, in 2020 after the lockdown, which was already a very hard period, there were elections in the north of Bosnia, and then the politicians used the migrants for their speech.And a lot of hate speech was spread. So, and even was local people would organize themselves to go and beat migrants. So, it changed from being super nice to the thought that these people are not good. European Union keeps exposing these people. European Union authorities send a lot of money to the borders to keep these people out of the European Union.So something might be wrong with them. European Union feels with the right to beat these people in their faces. To push them back and also with violence. So maybe these people are not so worth it. So, it's like how all these actions that come from all these European Indian countries are dehumanizing people.In a very bad way. Also, people will complain like, "ah, because the people are not clean," and of course they're not clean because the authorities cut the access to water, so they main access to water so you can have a proper shower was cut for a while. Things like that. So it seems very much from the moment that everybody was super welcoming to the opposite.And this is very much related with the speech that EU sends to the people who are trying to seek asylum. [00:27:33] Chris: Mm. So you think that this change in the way that people perceive these people on the move and the flows of people, it comes from the top down that it's a diffusion of EU based, state-based, language that then gets diffused as it rolls down the pyramid as it makes its way into social media, for example.[00:27:59] Barbara: Yeah, sure. The thing is that if the main authority, the main one is sending millions of euros and they say always, you can listen to Ursula von der Leyen for example, who is the president of the European Commission. She will say like, we're sending money to fight mafias of human trafficking.We're sending money to reinforce the borders, to protect our borders. You need to protect our borders because someone wants to attack the border, right? Mm-hmm. You're getting this work protection, right? Are we protecting from a six year old child from Syria? We're protecting from this actually. So, but when you're using these speech, you're making the people understand that we need to get protected from them.So that means these people are dangerous, right? Mm-hmm. And you're telling this. You're sending millions of euros every year to protect the borders and to fight against human trafficking mafias. This is what they say. It's not me. So, of course, a person who is sitting on her house and knows that some people that in her town, there is 800 people, for example, walking that she doesn't know, she would believe like, "ah, these people are dangerous" because what you, what what this woman who has authorities telling the television openly.Right? [00:29:08] Chris: I had an interview with Fiore Longo, who's a representative of Survival International, one of the oldest NGOs in Europe, in the world. And in that interview, she spoke at length about how the major NGOs in the conservation world, World Wildlife Fund, African Parks, and the rest of them, were essentially collaborating with state governments in Africa in order to push indigenous people off their traditional lands, in order to create national parks or national reserves or ecotourism organizations or companies. And I'm curious within the context of the border crises in Europe, how No Name Kitchen sees these much larger NGOs, the ones that I imagine getting money from governments and also helping to change government policy. [00:30:08] Barbara: We, as No Name Kitchen movement do not get any money from the European Union nor from governments. Why? Because if you as European commission are sending these millions of euros to "protect borders," how they say. To close the borders, while you are allowing the pushbacks because the pushbacks are being denounced.We brought this information to the European Parliament. It is there. It's not a secret. Everybody knows this happening. So, if you ask a European commission are sending all these big amounts of money, but then this European commission is sending also lots of money to these people that are rejected and that are abused at the borders, to create camps for them.Yeah, you can imagine how much this European Commission cares these people and how much nice might be these camps. Those camps are catastrophic, horrible. And many people have a lot of scabies. Many people have diseases from bedbugs and come to us actually to ask for cure because they are ignored.So the big institutional organizations, and I don't gonna say names because I'm talking on behalf of No Name Kitchen are many times inside of these camps and are getting money to manage these camps, which many times are like this. And sometimes there is no bedsheet at all. It's just this old, dirty mattress, what people can find when they entering the camp. And so you are getting these huge millions of money from the European Union and then you are keeping quiet about the abuses at the borders, what is this?Everybody can know which organizations they are because actually information is there. And normally they have these big advertisements showing people also, this is something that makes me very angry, because as I tell you, they are people. They're in different circumstances that we're, right now. They're same like you, and they were in their country, living a normal life until something happen.But they don't like to see themselves in this situation. Imagine that you are like now and then a war starts there, and then you need to see yourself asking for shoes, asking for food. This is catastrophe. This is very complicated. This is really difficult for them. But then they get these advertisements on the TV showing people like, "hi, these poor refugees, they need our help. Look these poor children, how much they need our help." But also you're kinda dehumanizing them a little bit. No, because you're showing them as these poor people that didn't know how to do the things by themselves when actually people on the move, in general, they are the bravest people I have ever met.Cause really this journey is something that you really, really need to be a brave person because the most of people will not do the journey. They stay in a calm area closer to their countries. And then they show them like these poor people, like if they will really not have power to change their situation and it's never like this.But then they make these advertisements, obviously. They not only get money from the European Union, but also from donors that with all their good intention want to support these poor people in their refugee camps. For example, Greece put this rule in 2020. This refugee camp, it was at the detention center, but like really like a jail of maximum security. That you really cannot leave this place. So if there is this government making these rules that against the human rights, keeping people into detention center, that's because you're applying for a asylum.But your asylum is, is being analyzed. Why, EU as an institutional organization are supposed to work for the human rights are supporting this and supporting these decisions from the government and then the government will say, "okay, now this kind of organization cannot be anymore in the camps." Then you don't denounce this publicly. You keep quiet about the situation inside of the camps. So are we really here for the people's rights? Or you're here because of your money.[00:33:37] Chris: Wow. And I'm curious about this notion of open borders in the context of tourism as well. Right. Because tourism operates largely on this notion of open borders. Those who can fly, those who can travel, those who have the right passports can go wherever they want.Although you have to go through customs, you have to go through security when you go to a new country, of course, and usually there's limits on how long you can stay and things like that. Generally, the pro-immigration movements there is also very much this kind of discourse, this fight for open borders in terms of asylum seekers and essentially making it easier to create that kind of hospitality that's needed for people in flight, people in exile.And so I'm curious about the dynamic between the two. Right? In a lot of places in southern Europe especially, you see graffiti that says, "migrants, welcome. Tourists, go home." Right? And so I'm curious what you think of these two major avenues or channels of movement in the world between tourism and then the movement of people in flight or in exile.[00:34:56] Barbara: Mm-hmm. Yeah, actually tourism is seen as a very positive thing. And then we already know that actually the reason doesn't necessarily need to be positive.It can make very expensive, your city. If we talk about some countries in the world, it can bring you some pedophiles too; misuse and abuse children. You know, like tourism can bring many good things, many bad things, like everything in life. No. Right. We always say that we don't cross borders, borders crossed us, separate us.So in Spain, for example. I say Spain because it's my country and we also operate there. To listen like, "ah, because we need more children because you know, like birth rate is pretty low," and it's true that we are not having so many children anymore. And we young people and then this and that, but then we have all these people who are, have migrated already, who are living in Spain from different countries, and who are young people that will be ready to study and to get education and to start working pretty fast because we are talking about people who are maybe like teenagers. And so, but the system doesn't try to help them. Doesn't really put any effort. You know, in a Spain, there is one term that is "MENA," to speak about people who have migrated, who are children. So, they normally the fastest called the MENA just to dehumanize one person, because you're using just these letters, you know, MENA means like "Menor Extranjera, Non-Acompanado" (Unaccompanied Underage Foreigner). So you're using just this term look out children, you know, so it's a way of criminalizing them and at the same time, there are no proper initiatives to integrate these people to the system, for example. Then at the same time, we have a lot of tourism and now we have this digital nomad visa.Hmm. So look, in order you get the digital nomad visa, you need to have a pretty high income. Yeah. Right. So, that means that actually this, okay, " these people come to my town and then they'll have a lot of money." But yeah, they can make very expensive here your city. I don't know if you've seen both in Libson and in Medellin there is already protest against digital nomads because they're making everything expensive. Also in Medellin, it seems that prositution Increases, so rich people are abusing people who are poor, women, of course, who are poor.And it raise the prostitution according to what I read and what I report because I also write about these kind of things with colleagues that I interviewed. So yeah, I know, like for example, it's not open borders. Open borders. Last year we were telling, that if we will allow the people who are in the Balkans to enter European Union and to ask for asylum, and also we're asking those of Europe to respect their own law.We're not asking for something very big. We're telling them respect your own law and your own international agreements and respect the human rights. Yeah. Which is basic. We always told like if these people who were in the Balkans were not so much, really, not so much would enter, there would not be crisis anymore.All this s**t would not be happening. And last year we could see when Ukrainian war started and selling millions of people who arriving into European Union countries and could get a house very fast. The children could go to study in short time. They could get integrated into the system in very few times.So this means that we are being racist because why we can host, I don't know how many millions of people born in Ukraine and keeping the war in Ukraine and we cannot host some thousand people who come from Syria, Iraq, or Afghanistan. This is racism, basically. Mm-hmm. Because in the Balkans, you find families who are three years in the Balkans, who have children. Three years without going to school.People who are getting themselves poor. You know, people when they left, it's not so easy to do this, this trip. It's very expensive. It's very hard. They have a business, for example, in Afghanistan, and then they go threatened by the Talibans or the one that the children are taken by the talibans to fight whatever.And then they say, okay, let's sell our business. Let's sell our house, our lands. They call this money and let's go to search for the future for our family. Then, they see themselves three years and the children don't go to school, that they cannot work, that they spend all their money every day. Cause there is no way to really find a job or get an income.So finally, this is racism. All this difference between a person comes from Ukraine and a person that is coming from Syria. [00:39:20] Chris: Wow. In regards to the relationships that are built between the Kitcheners of No Name Kitchen and the asylum seekers, do any of those friendships end up developing once those people have found a place to settle, a place to stay?[00:39:41] Barbara: Yeah, yeah, of course. It's true that now, it's not so easy to be spend time together because the police is really much disturbing you because you're giving a jacket to someone. So, it doesn't allow you to spend so much time anymore, together. But in general, what we promote in No Name Kitchen and what is very important for us, that we are really together.No, because we are people. All of us, we are people, just in different circumstances. We're actually all of us migrants. Some of them are local people as well, that are supporting us. Cause many local people support our activities. Maybe not always so active because finance is very tired to be every day in your own hometown doing these things.I'm facing all these challenges. For us it's very important to create networks of trust and mutual understanding. So, it's not only you are helping someone. No, no, it is not about this. It's about, you are there, you are learning with a, with a person. We are spending time with a person.It's amazing for me being volunteer with No Name Kitchen is amazing because you can learn so much. You can meet so much amazing people. And I tell you that I'm here with a colleague that she was with me in Bosnia. And then next week, some friends who live in different European countries are gonna come to visit us. One is originally from Syria. The other originally from Pakistan. Mm-hmm. They're gonna come here to visit because now they are already have made their lives. One is living in France. The other is living in the Netherlands. They have their papers, everything, so now they can travel freely around European Union.So this is very, very, very important for us. And actually these networks are very valuable because maybe some person arrives later to some country and then this person has already friends in this country. Mm. [00:41:16] Chris: Right. And in some instances, some of the people do end up returning, or maybe not returning is the right word, but reuniting with No Name Kitchen and other places to help perhaps serve those on the move for a time.[00:41:30] Barbara: Yeah. Like taking papers in Europe, it takes very long, so it's not so easy. And we started only in 2017. So many of the people that we know, they're still on the way to get papers. Really long process. No, but for example, there is this friend of me who is from Iran and I met him in Kladusa, in Bosnia, and now he's living in France.And the other day he wrote me. He was with two colleagues of me that he also met them in Bosnia and he was visiting them and the newborn baby they have been. And he would really like to come to volunteer with No Name Kitchen because now he has documents that he could. But at same time, because of the working conditions finally in this racist work, sometimes cannot be the same for everybody.Right. So he doesn't have the chance to just get one whole month to come. But at some point, yeah, he's thinking about coming. It can be difficult cause then I tell you that police sometimes are chasing people who are not white. So, sometimes it can be difficult, but at the same time. But yeah. Well the idea is like many of our friends now at some point will start not getting, or are getting documents. So, this is a network of people with people and for people. Mm [00:42:31] Chris: mm Amazing. Yeah. It does remind me of the philosophies and practices of mutual aid, (of apoyo mutuo). [00:42:38] Barbara: But it's very important. The other day I was telling to my therapist because I go to the therapy because of the stress.Yeah. So, we're talking about. And last time I was on the field and then she was telling like, yeah, " who helps you when you're helping?" It's like no, you cannot imagine like people on the move have really tried to help you, as well.You know? Like they cannot help us with that distribution. They can help us giving a lot of support. For example, when I was living in Bosnia and I had like a free day, I would go to my friends, to their squats. They had a very warm stove there. And I would be as there, they would cook for me, know, we would be playing board games, we would be laughing and that was my holiday.And for me that was a great moment, where to spend my free day, with them, and they would be taking care of me because they knew I was very stressed and they wanted me to be spoiled one day.[00:43:28] Chris: It's beautiful. Really beautiful. Yeah. The kind of hospitality that can arise in times of conflict, right? Mm-hmm. And so in a time of border crises seems to exist in so many parts of the world, so few people at least in my purview or my understanding actually know about these border crises or understand the complexity around them.And so I'm curious what kind of advice you might have for people who are either critical of immigration or people who want to understand the issues more deeply, and of course those who support asylum secrets. [00:44:16] Barbara: Yeah, I mean finally we're in the era of information, right? So if you wanna get information, good information, because you need to identify the misinformation sources.If you wanna get good information, there is a lot. So yes, please get informed and also go with people that have migrating and talk to them. Cause you'll meet them and you'll spend a lot of time with them and then you'll see how are their stories behind. And also, I really recommend people to get more information about this because I cannot believe that in the 21st century we are using the money of our taxes to pay for torture.This is just insane because this is torture, really, what is happening at the borders of the European Union. And I guess many people in European Union countries do not want their taxes to be spent like this. But at the same time, they don't get informed about this. There are so many sources of information. From us in our social media, we keep informing on a daily basis about the different things that are happening always. But in general, there are very good newspapers all over in different languages where you can get good information and also go to people and talk to people. [00:45:21] Chris: Yeah. It's I mean, go to people and talk to the people. The people that you know, you would perhaps not even talk to, just criticize, without having anything to do with.Right. And that most of those people that have an incredible unwillingness, like they're willing to criticize, but they're not willing to go and talk to the people who they're criticizing. Right. And it's really interesting because as you were talking about earlier, you know, Lisbon and Medellin and the backlash against digital nomads and things like that.This is happening as well in Oaxaca although against tourists in general. Some people ask me like, well, what do we do? And, and I say, well, why don't you go talk to the tourists? Ask them why they're here. Ask them what their life is like, because there's this image, this single or singular image of the tourist and it's a caricature, it's a stereotype, and it says that all tourists are exactly the same. They come for the same reasons. They do the same things. And they have nothing to do with us, right? They're totally the opposite of who we are and all of this stuff.And it's very, very similar to the way that people especially people who speak poorly of immigrants or people on the move also view this and just this unwillingness to speak with the other, right. Hmm. So much to consider. My plate is full with all you've offered today. And I'm deeply grateful to have been on the receiving end of your words today. I'm curious, Barbara how might our listeners get involved in No Name Kitchen?How might they find out more and follow your work online. [00:47:05] Barbara: Yeah, welcome everybody. We have Instagram, Facebook, YouTube and Twitter. And also now we started some months ago in TikTok. But yeah, we're on social media and also we try very much to always report everything we know, so people on the move know that they can rely on us if they want to denounce something publicly. And here we are for that. Welcome everybody to follow our task and to get to know more about the situation at the borders.[00:47:31] Chris: Thank you so much. On behalf of our listeners, it's been an honor to speak with you and, and to really get a deeper perspective onto these notions of exile and immigration and borders and border crises happening in the world now. So I'm really grateful for your willingness to speak with us today and to be able to add that layer to the conversation. [00:47:53] Barbara: Thanks very much to you for, invite us, for, invite me, for give voice to the situation and everybody welcome to follow what we do.Thank you very much. [00:48:01] Chris: Thank you, Barbara. Take care. [00:48:04] Barbara: Take care. Bye. Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

My guest on this episode is Petra Reski, a German writer and journalist who has lived in Venice since 1991. As a result of her numerous publications on the Mafia, she was subjected to lawsuits and threats, which is why she received police protection for a while. She has received numerous awards, including the prestigious Ricarda Huch Prize in 2021, which is awarded every three years to personalities whose work is characterized by independent thinking and courageous action, and who are fully committed to the ideals of humanity and international understanding.She has not only written novels, non-fiction books and numerous articles about her hometown of Venice, but also made a film already in 1998 with the prophetic title "The Last Venetians". Her most recent book is about the sell-out of Venice and has been published in Germany, Italy and France. She is a member of PEN and since 2018 has been driving a small fishing boat with which she can also park in reverse.Show NotesEveryday Life on an Overtouristed IslandThe Last VenetiansThe Fascist Political Rigging of Municipal PoliticsMurano Glass and The Death of an IslandThe Changes in Venice in the Last 30 YearsTaking Back Venice in the PandemicApril 19, 2023 Collective Action & Referendum in VeniceThe Loss of the Venetian LanguageOnce I Fell into the Grand CanalHomeworkPetra's Website: www.petrareski.comBooks: https://www.petrareski.com/buecher/Book in English: https://www.petrareski.com/buecher/mafia/the-honoured-society/Discover more episodes and join the conversation: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://www.theendoftourism.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠You can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter @theendoftourismLikewise, you can join the conspiracy and support the pod by subscribing below:Transcript[00:00:00] Chris: Welcome to the end of tourism podcast, Petra. Could you tell us a little bit about where you're speaking from today and what the world looks like for you, where you are?[00:00:08] Petra: Well, actually, I'm speaking from the center of Venice, just kind of not even 300 meters to the square, San Marco Square.So in the middle of everything, what happens here because 90% of the tourists who come to Venice go to San Marco Square and to the Rialto Bridge, and that's all. So, I'm in the middle of what people consider, unfortunately, interesting for just a day trip, for example.[00:00:43] Chris: "in the belly of the beast" we, we might say in English, yes. Yeah. I mean, not to denigrate, right? I'm sure that despite the, the hordes, the masses that there's, there's beauty to be found there still.[00:01:01] Petra: Yeah. Yeah. It is. It is, of course. But let's say for us it's a little bit, how do you say it? Because what we just experienced yesterday was the 1st of May, so it's a holiday.So we had long period of holidays. The 25th of April is a national holiday. So, we have been overcrowded by people. And the problem is even if you live upon tourism, like pizzeria, whatever, you can't even organize because you can't expect today it will be the mass and tomorrow there is nothing because it's changing.Even depends on the weather. Sometimes it's raining. People don't come that much. Or in this case it was almost cloudy. Not really nice weather for a trip to Venice, but it was overcrowded for one day and the next day there's nothing. So, let's say you are organizing a pizzeria and you can't even buy things, so everything is just in the freezer.It's nothing fresh. So, even for this simple motives, it's a problem here. You can't even calculate like you do it in a normal town where people come, you have kind of periods how to, organize your work. No.[00:02:14] Chris: Yeah, certainly. I feel that in the sense of, you know, there's certain types times of year in Oaxaca as well where many of the locals here, they either stay in their homes or they leave the city for an extended time. And this is just part and parcel of what it's like to live in a tourist city and so in that regard, Petra, I wanted to ask you, you're an award-winning journalist, an author of many books, articles, and, and novels.I'm curious what drew you to Venice in the first place?[00:02:48] Petra: Well, actually, for me, for example, I didn't know anything about Venice. When I moved to Venice, I moved to Venice just for a romantic reason, because I knew a Venetian. So that's the only reason I moved to Venice. For me, it would've seemed like, I've lived in Berlin, I lived in Paris, and Venice was not the place I wanted to be actually. So, it was just a choice because I have been drove by this Venetian, who, he like all the Venetians, if he looks outside of the window and he can't see water, so he feels bad.So that's the reason why. And he's very Venetian and he's very attached to a city and to the culture, so for him it would be impossible to live anywhere else. While for me it was easier. So many people, I know so many, who come to Venice and they buy a house or apartment or whatever because it's so romantic to live in Venice.That wasn't the case for me. My romantic reasons were different, like the man I met here a long time ago. So, well I lived here in Venice and I tried to do a kind of normal life, like because I'm a journalist, so I'm not writing always about Venice. I'm, I'm traveling around in Italy and my special subject, for example, is mafia.So I'm not connected to this to tourism. I don't live upon tourism, but I just feel the consequences of tourism and as a journalist, for me it was like the experience to see, because I arrived here actually in 89, and even at the time, one of the first journalistic things I did was, for example, for the radio transmission about the so-called last Venetians, and we are talking about 30,000 Venetians more than today.We were more than 80,000 at the time. 85,000. Wow. If I remember. So, because we lose every year, thousands habitants. And that was for me, quite curious. I wanted to understand the reasons why it is like this. Mm-hmm. And for Venice, what is not almost not known at all outside of Venice, I'm not talking even about in Europe or somewhere else, but even outside a few kilometers outside of Venice, they don't know that Venice is, by a political choice at the time of fascism, there was a group of industrialists who had this good idea to say, well, Venice, it's nice.And we keep it like a museum. And we put all industry, everything, which is not really nice, attractive, we put it on the mainland. Mm-hmm. So, the petrol chemical industry, for example, the oil at the time, but it started really only in the fifties and sixties. So, they settled the whole industry on the mainland and.At one certain point it was very important for the development of Venice was in 66 when there was the first really disaster of high water in Venice. And what they did, they created at the time of fascism.The whole administration, Venice is called now Venice, which is Venice, and they call it Venice, which is not Venice because Venice, as everybody knows, is inside the water, it's island. Mm. But they consider for administration, mainland as Venice. This is very interesting because we are suffering from this monoculture of tourism.And this monoculture of tourism has been started already, kind of 30 years ago. Really, it was really the aim, the drive at a monoculture of tourism, not to do anything else, no industry, not even small industry in Venice, not more classical things like construction of boats or anything else.Just only monoculture of tourism and the reason why, because for example, if you consider the island of Murano, the Murano glass factories, as there was a, a certain moment, the Murano glass factories actually, they have a kind of problem because they live on Murano. So everything that has to be brought to the island is much more expensive than if you produce on the mainland, of course. Mm-hmm. So the European community supports regions who are for geographical reasons disadvantaged, like Murrano obviously. So they had kind of suspension and they felt fine with this, but at a certain time, of course the European community said, well actually you are not an island.You are mainland. Mm. And in this case, the mayor should have said, well, actually, it's a problem because we are both. And so if you are both, you can't have this suspensions. You can't have this money from the European country. And this was the reason why today, for example, Murano is dead.The Moran glass industry is completely dead. Yeah, they don't have any more. They even had to pay back the European community or the money they had . And so it has been a political decision just to isolate Venice and to maintain Venice just only as a kind of monoculture as a museum without.And the last obstacles in a way are the last remaining Venetians. Mm-hmm. And they have to be pulled out. And I think at the speed in which the Venetians are pushed out of the city because they don't find departments because everything is Airbnb.They don't find any job, which is not in the tourism. So it's will be completely dead in a few years, not even.[00:09:00] Chris: Wow. Those are strong words. I'd like to, return to this notion of the quote last Venetians shortly. But I'd like to ask you just to give a little bit of context as you were for our listeners.How have you seen Venice, your home, change over the last, I guess, 30, 35 years?[00:09:23] Petra: So when I arrived here, it was for me quite funny to study the Venetians in the way, because you can see Venetians, how they move differently, for example, if they move around in Venice.And at the time it was like this in the whole crowd of Venetians, you saw tourists completely disorientated, going around, didn't find the right way to go. While today it's just the opposite. It's a huge crowd. And you'll see, I see, I know who is Venetian, even if I don't know him, I can recognize the Venetian, how they move inside the crowd. They try to get around.So even, really just have a look on the crowds. You can see what changed. And well actually where I live, just close to the Fenice Theater, the Opera House and behind this there's a street "Calle de la Mandola," and in this small street, it was like Venice. Everywhere there was fruit and vegetables and cheese and meat and whatever you can buy you, for your everyday life. You could go to these small little shops, and at the time everybody said, oh no, supermarkets are not good in Venice because the people, they don't buy in supermarkets. And so the supermarkets were only on the mainland and no supermarkets in Venice.They are just all these small little shops. But when more and more Airbnb came up and the people in the Airbnb, they are used to use supermarkets. They don't want to pick up the meat here and the fruit there. And so they were supermarkets everywhere. So all the little shops closed.And transformed into tourist stuff like gondolas or something. Just tourist stuff. Completely useless things sold. And because at the time we had already kind of Murano glass shops at the time for tourists, of course, because Venice has always been a tourist city.But now it's just very, very low level tourist stuff, which is sold and it is sold by, today, by Chinese and by Bangladesh, and that's all. So there's a little street and one of these so manys here in Venice is completely dead, dead in the sense it's just tourist stuff and even very cheap tourist stuff.[00:11:57] Chris: Wow. And I'm curious. You know, you spend, I guess 30 years and you see this over tourism as it's called rise and just get stronger and more caustic or problematic in the place you live, in the place you call home. And then suddenly, in probably a few weeks, I imagine in March of 2020, it's all gone.Or at least the tourists. Right. And so I'd like to ask you a little bit about the pandemic and what the feeling was like for locals in Venice during that time. You wrote in that time that Venice's quote, rape was temporarily suspended.Yeah. And so what, what was it like to go from one of the most over touristed cities in the world to having what I imagine was no tourists and no tourism, whatsoever?[00:12:54] Petra: Yeah, for us, it was unbelievable. And I will never forget this, because it was the most beautiful time in Venice I ever experienced, because there was nobody. Actually, everybody, all the Venetians went around with a phone and took pictures and videos. And I sent even videos to my friends in Germany and they said it was astonishing for me, as surprised me, that they said, "oh no, it's terrible. There's nobody there."And I said, yeah, it's true. There's nobody, it was like a ghost town if you want. But, after a few weeks, when we got used to this, there was one moment completely crazy for me because we live on a canal where gondola serenades pass by from nine in the morning until 11 night.So even with rain, singing "Ciao Venetia, Ciao Venetia." So, no gondolas serenades around. That's the reason why we keep always the windows closed because otherwise there's too much noise. Mm-hmm. So, at the time we had the windows open. In this 30 years, the first time I took place on this small balcony and I sat there in the sun and I had a glass of wine. The first time in 30 years.And at a certain point, I heard on the other part of the canal and window opened and there was a guy crying, "oh, Johnny, what do you do here to the other side of the canal?"And the other said, "Well, I live here." And the other said, "since when?" "Since 20 years." because everybody has always closed these windows.We can't open this. So, for me, the experience was to hear in this apartment, when I went around in Venice, in this moment when I heard people in the apartment talking and I was kind of, "oh, these are real Venetians living here." And it was for us, we tried to get back in a way our city, you know. So, when we went around, for example, with the boat, and we entered in small canals where we never go, because you can't even try to get in them. And so we tried to get in possession once again of our own city and obviously we had like, I think so many people in the whole world. We had the hope that there would be a change on even a rethinking. But already after some time we, we had to, to admit that there won't be a change, actually.Today, it's like "revenge travel" no? Everybody wants to travel and they always wanted just to go back to the life they had before. So didn't change anything unfortunately.[00:15:43] Chris: Well, I mean, at least it entered into the minds of the people, the locals anyways, that things could be different. This notion of revenge traveler, revenge tourism, which you don't hear so much about anymore after, I guess a year or two of global tourism having returned.And well, revenge. Revenge against what, right?And people say like, "oh, well, the pandemic." And I'm like, "you can't really take revenge against a virus?"And okay, "well then the lockdown." Well, "you can't really, I mean, if you're leaving a place, you're not really taking revenge against your own government."So who is the revenge against? And then When you think about the consequences, you realize that the revenge is against the places that they want to go. Yeah. Right. The damage that they're causing through their vengeance is against the the places they want to go to, right.And so we see this this return and revenge of travel and tourism and certainly, you know, Venice, like many of the other most over touristed places and cities in the world bear the brunt of this feel this. And so I was in contact with some of your friends and colleagues at Groupo 25, apri. Because there was some protests a couple weeks ago in Venice. Yes. And I'm curious if you could tell us a little bit about those actions, how the turnout was, the overall reaction and the next steps?[00:17:15] Petra: So Venice is, let's say, the "golden goose" for the mainland because, do you remember, the mainland lives mainly upon Venice. And so, and even for political reasons like we are here in Venice now, less than 50,000 inhabitants, while on the mainland it's 180,000 inhabitants. So, the election of the mayor means that he is elected by the mainland, not by the Venetians, against our own interests, you know? Wow. And this is for us, the biggest problem of all.So once, one of the activities even of a Gruppo 25 Aprile and even other associations of Venetians was in 19. We had the fifth referendum, two to be autonomous, separation from the mainland, because just we want to decide, we want to elect our mayor who defends our interests and not the interests of people who are not living here, but living on Venice.And actually, it was a huge success, but it hasn't been recognized. It has been declared invalid. Okay,[00:18:42] Chris: So, the referendum passed then?[00:18:44] Petra: Yes. Okay. And had a lot of big success, even on the mainland. But the fact is, it was as if the independence of Scotland, England has to vote too.That's the reason why. So it's completely absurd, no? But we had this. So even the inhabitants of the mainland voted for a separation from Venice. But anyway, so this was one of these things we did. But the last manifestation, the reason why there was this demonstration on the Campo San Angelo was because it's 50 years now that Venice is should be financed by a special law because at the time, in 66 was this completely destruction of the high water in Venice. So then after, the politics in Italy, they decided we have to do something to maintain Venice. And so they decided a special law (legge speciale) to maintain Venice.We are, in a way, we are kidnapped by the mainland. So what do they do with the money? The money they should use, they use it for the mainland. And in this case, for example, money that is thought for Venice, they wanted to put it to construct a sports stadium on the mainland. So this is for voters obviously.So, this was the reason why we were manifesting that you can't go on with this to spend the money which is thought for Venice for other things like even the flood.The money that comes to maintain Venice goes directly to maintain this huge thing against the high water, and this is too long to discuss, but are not really only positive for Venice actually, because we need the flood and so on.But it's very, very delicate and so the money doesn't finish here in Venice and it's invested everywhere else in this huge modern project and on the mainland. That's our problem here.[00:20:57] Chris: Sounds, as you said, extremely complex and convoluted, at least as far as the money is concerned.I'm curious, in those days of organizing and action, I imagine these were public events, and given that I've never been to Venice, I have this image in my mind of, on any given day kind of 80% tourists, 20% locals. I'm curious if there was any noticeable response or acknowledgement at the very least, by tourists in regards to these actions.[00:21:37] Petra: Yeah, let's say a little bit, but only a little bit because they don't speak Italian. They don't understand the problems. I wrote recently a book about Venice, about all the problems. And it was interesting for me because it was published in Germany.So, they might assume the people who read my book, obviously people are interested in Venice, so they said, "oh, it was strange for us. We never knew about this. We never knew."And actually they don't know about it. No. Because even on discussions on Facebook, as somebody, even Italians say, "oh wow, yeah, they are always complaining about the tourism, but they are living upon this tourism."I said, no, they don't live on the tourism. That's the biggest problem because they don't know that, what I explained now, the thing was the mainland, that we are really kidnapped by the mainland. Mm-hmm. And it's a political problem and they don't know anything about it.So that's the biggest problem for us because I think, I wouldn't criticize tourists actually. They come and they don't know anything. You might inform the people of what is happening here and for example, the day trippers. One could organize it easily to diminish this huge masses who come here.So it's not if you want, but they don't want. It's a disadvantage for the tourists who come here, who love Venice, who go to the museums, who stay here for a long, long time. That's long time, today. It's like three or four days, no? "Long time." But if they come and if they don't see anything Venetian anymore and they can't, for example, the food in the restaurant, it's if a restaurant is run by Chinese or Bangladeshi, it's not Venetian food.You come here and you don't have the food, you don't hear Venetian, anymore. Mm-hmm. You don't have Venetian craft work anymore, here. So it's like you go to Pompeii.. No.[00:23:37] Chris: The ruins. The ruins of pompeii.[00:23:38] Petra: Yeah. Yeah. You see nice palazzi, but there's no life in it because the people come to see the life. Because why do you do tourism? Because want to see how people live here and in Venice, the importance is, even a few kilometers from here to the mainland, it's a completely, it's a different culture. It's a different culture.We are here, we're living upon water, which is completely different, completely different concept of living. We don't have the car in front of the house.[00:24:10] Chris: Right, right, right. Yeah. I mean you know, in some of the the articles that I read regarding your work, you had, you had written that "living in Venice consists in watching the city die."[00:24:23] Petra: Yes.[00:24:23] Chris: And that's an incredibly heartbreaking statement. And you mentioned a little bit about this notion of the, the language. I imagine that many foreigners, especially Anglophones don't know that Venetian is a separate language from Italian and that the culture is very, very distinct and unique, of course, geographically and otherwise.And so you mentioned the restaurants and the food. What have you seen happen to Venetian culture and language? Has it just gone to the mainland or are there still pockets of it there on the island?[00:24:58] Petra: There. Well, there's a few places, but you have to know it because everybody asked me even when I arrived here and now, until today, they "No. Where do Venetians go?" There, you won't find any Venetian. You don't even find somebody speaking Italian in restaurants here? No. Wow. Wow. So when I'm in a restaurant, I don't hear Italian. I hear just here English, German, whatever, French. This is Venice. This is daily life in Venice. No, you can find some. It's not because it's not because you can't transfer Venetian life on the mainland. The mainland is different form of life. It's completely different. In Venice, life is like, the food is different.If you are eating fish, for example. All this fish things that were very specially Venetian. You can find it only in Venice. You don't find it on the mainland. So, this is all almost lost now because all the venetians still know where there's still a good restaurant that prepares kind of Venetian food.But you have to know this, and if you come here, you don't know it. You won't find it. No. Mm-hmm.[00:26:15] Chris: I imagine, that perhaps there are still some native Venetian grandparents and great-grandparents on the island still living there and I'm curious, if that's the case, what they might think of the issue.[00:26:29] Petra: Yeah, they see this and for them, it's heartbreaking because they see that their city kidnapped by the mainland is sold out and sold out, and their culture is destroyed. There's nothing left, nothing. So, and we are kind of minority. 50,000 and not even there.Let's say we are really living here, it's about 30 thousand. While on the mainland, 180,000. We do what we can. But the mayor, for example, he thinks in voters, what does it mean? Doesn't mean anything for him. He doesn't care at all. He doesn't care at all. They just want to have the office in Canal Grande.And for example, the Mayor of Venice, he doesn't live in Venice. He never lived in Venice. He doesn't even live on the mainland of Venice. He lives outside, in Treviso. So he has nothing to do with, with Venice. He has never lived here. He doesn't know what it mean. At the time, when we suffered from the flood in 19, it was a complete disaster.I've never seen this cause I experienced even high waters here, but this was, you can't even imagine, was really like, a horror show. Yeah. And if you know what this means for Venetians that they had to pick up when the siren was yelling and you have such a long time. You have to go to run to your shops or whatever you have to protect it against the water because the water it was like until here. No,[00:28:08] Chris: up to the chest. Wow.[00:28:10] Petra: The chest. It was completely crazy. And if you have experienced this, because we had even high waters before and even terrible high waters, but not like this.But you have lived with this for years. It makes something with you, obviously, you know, but if you have always lived in Treviso, or Mogliano or whatever, what do you think? You don't care. You don't care at all. Hmm.I would've, I would like to tell you something more positive.I mean, you know, it's important, it's key that we have the capacity to hear these stories, right? That I think so often go unheard. I just had this image pop into my mind of living in a place where, constantly with this threat of floods and the floods are both natural or I guess in the sense of water and then perhaps unnatural in the sense of tourists.Right. And just reminded me, you have this new book that I had a chance to read a little bit from called "Once I Fell Into The Grand Canal." I don't think it's been published in English yet,No, absolutely not. It's been published in Italian, German, and French. If there's in an editor, I would be happy to publish it in English because Yeah. For me, it's all about my personal experience in this three decades that I live in Venice and how I watched it developed and I participated with my Venetian husband. Yeah, because for him, it's even worse than for me. Yeah. He's very attached to Venetian craft work and everything. So it is very sad for them because yeah, they know that their whole life is almost gone.[00:30:01] Chris: Wow. Wow. And what's been some of the response to the book or the feedback that's come out of places that, you know, as you said, this is where some of the tourists come from.[00:30:11] Petra: No, I was really, really surprised. Positively surprised cause I had so much feedback, so, so much. And every, everybody was like, oh, what can I do for Venice? I would like to do something. I would like to help you and to sustain you. And well, the groups, all this association, because it's not only a Gruppo 25 Aprile. Well, there are several of them, but even Gruppo 25 Aprile is very, very active.And so the Venetians do some things. I don't know, another town, with people so active, coming to this manifestations or even to come to know about what the problem of the high water is really for geographical reasons.I don't know ever if somebody in Munich or somewhere maybe. It's only concerns you immediately, but I don't know, if in other cities the people would have been so engaged in a way. So, the readers were really, really interested and gave me a lot of response and a lot of them even said, I feel guilty if I come.I feel guilty. Mm-hmm. And I said, well, you don't have to feel guilty unless you don't take an Airbnb first thing. Second thing is don't do cruise to Venice for the rest. If you stay here and you go around and you go to the museums and you have, look on Venice, it's okay, but you don't have to feel guilty.Guilty. Guilty are these who come just for day trippers. Day trippers is completely useless. Yeah. It's useless. Mm-hmm.[00:31:51] Chris: I hear this word a lot in the work that I, that I do with the podcast around guilt and shame even. Right. You know, there's, there's certainly people in tourist cities who want to shame tourists, so they feel bad or guilty or whatever.But the other side of that, the constructive side perhaps is, in lieu or instead of feeling guilty, we could feel responsible for our movements, for our travels. And I guess one of the questions that I would have for you in that regard, because, just for our listeners, one of the statistics that I pulled up. There's an unbelievable amount of statistics around Venice, in this regard. But this one is pretty intense. That as Petra said, there's about 50,000 residents, Venetians, that live in Venice on the island, and that Venice receives about 110,000 tourists per day on average.And so, The question is around, responsibility and is that the advice you would have for people who wanted to come and visit Venice? Don't choose an Airbnb? Yeah. Don't go on a cruise ship?[00:33:04] Petra: Yes, this is the most important thing and don't do a day trip to Venice. Don't just buy a little small book about Venice.It must much better than for several reasons, for you and for the environment because whatever you cause with your car or your plane or whatever for one day to come to Venice, it's completely useless because Venice is so special because, it's not the city like Rome or Florence because it's different.It's a different world, and you can experience this different world only if you stay here, if you walk around, if you walk around in the evening because the noise is, for example, is different in the evening. And even to hear you walking, to hear your feet on the ground. This, you can't hear it.But when I go to outside of Venice, I'm always astonished that you hear the cars and the whole time there's a kind of ground noise that nobody hears anymore. And you don't have this in Venice. Mm. So, there are so many experience of kind of sense for sensitivity, and you can experience this only if you stay here more than one day.Of course. So it's even this experience and the water and yeah. This is, it is very important to spend some time in Venice.[00:34:28] Chris: Hmm. Yeah. I mean, how much could you possibly learn in a single day? Right? And. Maybe that's part of the problem, is not only is that we don't even use or consider the term " learn."It's just how much can you see, right? It's always about seeing, and even if we did take up this, exchange of words, and we use the term learn instead of see how much could you possibly learn in one day. We're always quantifying it right? We're always putting it into a number, instead of the quality of our learning.And I guess, that last question brings me to this next one. We can offer advice and suggestions to tourists. Of course it's very, very important and very much needed. But part of the goal of this podcast is to create solidarity across disparate movements, across disparate places, across disparate cultures.And so over the course of your 30 plus years in Venice, seeing these very different social movements all working towards the regeneration of the same place and culture, what advice would you have for other social movements in other parts of the world, maybe suddenly or maybe for a long time, having the storm of tourism or over tourism in their place. What advice would you have for people who want to try to make things better in, in their place?[00:36:03] Petra: Well actually, we in Venice and I, somebody else, they try to connect with other movements over the time because to just create a net of, because we are suffering, for example, Dubrovnik.Which is in Croatia has similar pro problems than Venice. And we try to learn, one tries to learn from the other. Like Barcelona for example, has the same problem of the cruise ships and so we try to learn from each other and mainly, we, we are connected. The different groups in Venice are connected with other groups like in, and even the ones No Grandi Navi were fighting to quit because we have still the cruise ships here in Venice because this was a kind of big fake news that went around the whole world that there won't be any cruise ships anymore.We have still today, the same number of cruise ships in several points, but for the lagoon, it's the same. So mm-hmm. We had a lot of contact and No Grandi Navi they do it with all associations in the world. Like in America, it's like Key West.It's some completely similar to Venice. Yeah.[00:37:19] Chris: Hmm. Fascinating. We'll have to organize a conference in Mexico maybe, and Oh yeah. Invite you all over. Yes. Before we finish, Petra I just wanna thank you deeply for your time, for your willingness to speak with me today to speak for on on behalf of our listeners and on behalf of Venice.And also to speak in a language that I imagine is not your mother tongue. It's very, very much appreciated and something that I think a lot of people forget a lot of the time. And so I'd like to again ask how might our listeners find out more about your work and the social movements you're involved in there in Venice?[00:38:05] Petra: Thank you very much.Yeah. I hope that this will, yeah, we have to bring it in the whole world. So just think about Venice and try to participate if you come to Venice, participate with Venetians. Thank you very much.[00:38:20] Chris: Mm-hmm. And you have a website, is that correct?[00:38:23] Petra: I have a website. It's www.petrareski.com. Petra Reski. If you just Google "German journalist in Venice," you'll find it immediately. And if you put a drawing with Mafia things, mafia, journalist, German, Venice, and you will immediately find my name.[00:38:51] Chris: Beautiful. Well, thank you so much Petra and I have one small final question, if that's all right.I wasn't gonna ask it, but you brought it up at the very end. And if you don't want to answer it, it's quite all right. But I'm curious, given that you've done all this work and, and research and a lot of your books have to do with the mafia or organized crime in that part of the world, I'm curious if you know whether or not Organized crime Venice, or at least in northern Italy, is involved in tourism.[00:39:25] Petra: It is absolutely. It's one of the favorite investment just to to wash the money to. For the lavatriche. What is it still in English? Money laundering. For the money laundering. It's one of the favorite points. now, because it's, and even to invest the already laundered money in big hotels and restaurants, but even the restaurants. So, it's not by coincidence that the money is laundered in so many restaurants even. And we have to deal with Albanian Mafia. We have to deal with Italian Mafia. We have to deal with Chinese mafia.And we have a local, we had even a local mafia, Venetian Mafia too. Mm-hmm. So we have all this so where money, where the money goes. Just follow the money, this is the main concept of mafia here in Venice.[00:40:22] Chris: And so they, they, they own, I imagine they own businesses that are more or less fronts for money laundering.And do they also tax local restaurants and bars ?[00:40:31] Petra: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's like, you know no, no, I know what you mean. No, no, because this, you do this only in Southern Italy with a small shop. No, no, no. They don't do it because they know the legal culture of Northern Italians.It's completely different from Southern Italian. You can't threaten somebody with this here. They don't do this. No, no, no, no. It's just. It's like they move in the Venice, like they move like in Germany or in other parts of Europe, because they know very well how to move it.[00:41:03] Chris: Okay. Interesting. Well, to our listeners, take notice, right? Once again, thank you very much Petra, and if you're ever in Oaxaca or if you're ever in southern Mexico, please let me know. It'd be great to meet you.[00:41:18] Petra: I hope so.I hope very much to join you once in Mexico. Thank you very much for your interest. Thank you very much and thank you to the listeners. Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

This week: 2022 wrap; Chris passes the mic as we welcome former Wall Street Journal "Middle Seat" columnist Scott McCartney to the podcast as Ben's new co-host; A fresh take from Scott on the JetBlue/American Northeast alliance; Frequent flyer programs get tighter; Where would our hosts invest $10k right now? Next episode Jan 4th, 2023. Happy New Year!

Season 3, Episode 37.  Chuck and Chris welcome Pete Carter to discuss and introduce the next episode.  In this episode, we introduce Pete and discuss some his personal story and how his interest in the founding of the ASSH developed.Subscribe to our newsletter:  https://wustl.us6.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=c6fe13919f69cbe248767c4e8&id=10e0c1dd85Please complete NEW Survey: https://forms.office.com/Pages/ResponsePage.aspx?id=taPMTM1xbU6XS02b65bG1s4ZpoRI9wlPhXnSF2MnEXxURVRNVDNBMEVSMU1CWFpIQVA4SEtMTFcyMS4uAs always, thanks to @iampetermartin for the amazing introduction and conclusion music.theupperhandpodcast.wustl.edu.  

Season 3, Episode 28.  Chuck and Chris welcome Farshid Guilak to discuss his remarkable research career and his approach to leadership, mentorship, and change.  This fun and interesting discussion of topics is certain to be of interest.  Farsh has a remarkable recor of research success (the only 3 time winner of the Kappa Delta Award) and built a thriving lab through supportive leadership and mentorship.   We discuss these topics and more (work- life balance and generational differences)Subscribe to our newsletter:  https://wustl.us6.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=c6fe13919f69cbe248767c4e8&id=10e0c1dd85 Survey Link:Help Chuck and Chris understand better what you like and what we can improve.  And be entered for drawing to win a mug!  https://bit.ly/349aUvzAs always, thanks to @iampetermartin for the amazing introduction and conclusion music.theupperhandpodcast.wustl.edu.  

Episode 33, Season 2: Chuck and Chris welcome Rachel Pigott and Nora Barrett, the President and Annual Meeting Chair, respectfully, of the American Society of Hand Therapists to discuss the ASHT Annual Meeting in St. Louis, October 7th-10th.   They share insights about the ASHT and specifics about the annual meeting including highlights.   Its going to be a great meeting with some focus on nerve but a complete coverage of all pertinent hand therapist topics.  Note this podcast is abbreviated- the full, uncut version is on You Tube.As always, thanks to @iampetermartin for the amazing introduction and conclusion music.theupperhandpodcast.wustl.edu.  And thanks to Eric Zhu, aspiring physician and podcast intern.Survey Link:Help Chuck and Chris understand better what you like and what we can improve.  And be entered for drawing to win a mug!  https://bit.ly/349aUvz

Episode 33, Season 2: Chuck and Chris welcome Terry Light, a mentor to many, to the show.  Terry shares his medicolegal thoughts on both how to avoid issues as well as when to consider expert witness work.  Many pearls for listeners of all levels and training.As always, thanks to @iampetermartin for the amazing introduction and conclusion music.theupperhandpodcast.wustl.edu.  And thanks to Eric Zhu, aspiring physician and podcast intern.Survey Link:Help Chuck and Chris understand better what you like and what we can improve.  And be entered for drawing to win a mug!  https://bit.ly/349aUvz

Episode 22, Season 2.   Chuck and Chris welcome noted pediatric sports medicine physician, Mark Halstead.  Mark has great experience caring for athletes at every level and we spend our talking youth sports, return to play, family dynamics and even pitch counts.  Mark shares pearls on many levels and explains why the athletic trainer relationships are so important.As always, thanks to @iampetermartin for the amazing introduction and conclusion music.theupperhandpodcast.wustl.edu.  And thanks to Eric Zhu, aspiring physician and podcast intern.Survey Link:Help Chuck and Chris understand better what you like and what we can improve.  And be entered for drawing to win a mug!  https://bit.ly/349aUvz

Episode 9, Season 2. Chuck and Chris talk to Rob Gray from Chicago and Orrin Franko from the San Francisco Bay Area on their approaches to marketing. In this episode, we focus on practice development and marketing with Rob and Chris who are not in the classic academic models. We learn about their approach to all things marketing including patient reviews. robgraymd.comhttps://ebhmc.com/dr-franko/https://surgisurvey.comAs always, thanks to @iampetermartin for the amazing introduction and conclusion music.theupperhandpodcast.wustl.edu. And thanks to Eric Zhu, aspiring physician and podcast intern.Survey Link:Help Chuck and Chris understand better what you like and what we can improve. And be entered for drawing to win a mug! https://bit.ly/349aUvz

Episode 3, season 2. Chuck and Chris talk more about Chris' favorite topic- nerve surgery. Our 3rd in the series on nerve surgery. We welcome a very special guest, Amy Moore. Amy is a plastic surgeon who spent her entire career here at Washington University until about 1 year ago when she relocated to become the Chair of Plastic Surgery at Ohio State. Amy's knowledge runs deep and better yet, she shares her thoughts clearly and with great conviction. She has a special expertise and reputation around nerve transfer surgery.As always, thanks to @iampetermartin for the amazing introduction and conclusion music. And thanks to Eric Zhu, the Upper Hand intern extraordinaire.theupperhandpodcast.wustl.eduSurvey Link:Help Chuck and Chris understand better what you like and what we can improve. And be entered for drawing to win a mug! https://bit.ly/349aUvz

Episode 49. Chuck and Chris welcome Asif Ilyas, MD from the Rothman Institute to discuss the opioid epidemic. Asif is the President of the Rothman Opioid Foundation, check it out here: www.Rothmanopioid.org. We discuss hand surgery, training, and a number of topics around the opioid crisis including how we got here, better prescribing habits, multimodal treatment, and more.As always, thanks to @iampetermartin for the amazing introduction and conclusion music.theupperhandpodcast.wustl.edu. And thanks to Eric Zhu, aspiring physician and podcast intern.Survey Link:Help Chuck and Chris understand better what you like and what we can improve. And be entered for drawing to win a mug! https://bit.ly/349aUvz

Welcome to the Recruitment Hackers Podcast. A show about innovations, technology and leaders in the recruitment industry brought to you by  the leading recruitment automation platform.Max: Welcome back ladies and gentlemen, to the recruitment hackers podcast. I'm your host Max Armbruster and today exceptionally I have not one, but two guests, both coming from a company called Experian, which is not a travel website. They'll tell us about Experian and tell us about what they do  for this fast growing tech company. On the show we have Lena Lotsey, global employer brand director at Experian. Welcome to the show, Lena. Hello, thank you for having me. Thank you for being here. And, Chris Brady global TA director at the same company. Hi, Chris. Chris: Welcome. Max: Are you guys gonna interview each other? And so I can sit back, relax.Lena: Oh, we've done that before. It wasn't pretty, Chris: That's actually how she got the job. So, but I was interviewing her. Lena: There we go.Max: So, Lena you've been there for three years, so obviously Chris had, made a good hire there and the right decision and, it's always a big gamble, a big roll of the dice, especially with a sensitive area such as the employer brand.I don't know who should answer this question, but what was the impetus for creating this role? Okay.Lena: I'm happy to take a stab at that. As I understand it prior to my arrival, this role, as you say, didn't exist. So this was a newly created role. And, my background was actually in entertainment marketing, and I worked in LA on the agency side and worked with Netflix and, all of the movie studios for digital marketing campaigns. And one of the last projects that I worked on actually was with Google working on their life at Google campaign and working with their employer brand team. So I spent a year working on that and realized the similarities. Between entertainment marketing, and marketing your employer brand and how you find your fans, because they can speak on your behalf in a more trustworthy, genuine way, telling their stories and providing evidence of these pillars, whether it's, in my case, with entertainment, new show launching or film. But with the employer brand case with Google, using the employee stories to represent and provide proof points of the aspects of the EDP that Google was trying to get across. And their challenge was that people were intimidated by Google.So that was one of the many challenges that we had to overcome in working with their employer brand team. So in doing that, I realized how much I really loved it. So when Chris contacted me, I probably did think it was Expedia initially, and eventually I got back to him, And we chatted and he just sold me on what an incredible company Experian was.And it really has, I mean, I was sold as soon as I hung up the phone with him after that first conversation. So as director of recruiting and talent acquisition at Experian, I think Chris has this critical role of showcasing our company. And, representing it in a way that I think dispels preconceived ideas about what Experian is, if we're just a credit bureau and really, amplifying the fact that we are the leading global information services provider, that we have over 17,000 employees around the world, that we have our hands in many different verticals, auto and health, and, you know, convene these, the scale of the company.Was it a surprise to me all the awards that we've won as an employer? Around DNI, around innovation from Fortune and Forbes? I mean, there was just all this great information, coming at me. So I like to say we have an embarrassment of riches because it's so true. I think Experian is the best kept secret.And within as an employer and within our company, I think there are so many stories to tell and that's my job. So in this newly created role, basically I had to say, where do I start looking at all the regions? everyone who touches external comms in some way or social media in some way, where do we start to tell this story?And I want people to visit our site. Our career site or our social channels and come away with the same impression I came away with after my first conversation with Chris. Max: Yeah. So  you want to bottle up what you experience and make it available for the masses? Lena: Well said much more succinct now.I totally get that. and  I think that we can talk a little bit about the communication to candidates. And how do you use employees as ambassadors? I think we're just scratching the surface of what can be done there.  But, Chris since you managed to sell Lena on this vision, maybe, tell us a little bit about what you do and, well if you want to expand a little bit on what Experian does.Chris: Yeah. So, and I appreciate the opportunity to be on your podcast, and you can see why I recruited Lena, just, in the way that she describes all of the opportunities we have, you know, all of that information that she just stated is awesome. And we have so much of it, but we didn't have a central way that we could kind of train and have a consistent message across our recruiting function. So within talent acquisition, you have a lot of different people that are in siloed, different environments. And so I can't, if somebody is recruiting for auto, it might be different than decision analytics or credit services or consumer services.And so, that was one of the things that we worked on last year is a pitch book. So an actual document that the recruiters could reference and say, okay, if I talked to somebody last week, it's the same experience. and when I started back in 2012 as a consultant, I was working as, just kind of helping with some talent mapping.And trying to figure out which locations we should hire these specific technologists, as well as help with some projects. And I came from an executive search background. So, I was on my own for 14 years. So it was so interesting that I was always helping people fix their staffing problems, but I would kind of approach things from the outside.And so coming from the inside, I'm like, wow, there's so much information, but I was going through all this data that we had of all these great points. And I'm like, does nobody know about them? And when they asked me to help with that social media, that was the first thing I started looking at is like, okay, we need somebody to actually know that's what they're doing.And that's why I kind of reached out to Lena, when we kind of  built the role and then figured out, Hey, if we want to bring somebody in, that's going to change things we should probably look outside our industry because we could hire people from a competitor, but we're going to get the same thing, the same ideas, same thoughts.Max: Yeah. I've got to say, in my time, in this talente solution space, 10 plus years, some of the best people I've seen were kind of people who are just dropped into talent acquisition coming from another function entirely or another industry, even from finance or from sales, of course, sales and marketing, very effective transitions and people who look at the process and say, now, why are we using this? Why are we using that? Why are we still using this form? Can we get rid of this step? And there's, you know, it breaks a few egos, to get that stuff that work done, but it's usually quite helpful. one thing that I've noticed, talking about breaking things...I've noticed that a lot of international markets are not making the same use of the ATS. Well, as the colleagues in North America, because they find that it's a bit cumbersome for candidates. And I'm wondering whether you've adapted your candidate journey to international markets to reflect some of that experience and these different expectations for the candidate.Chris: Yeah.  I think, from an executive leadership standpoint, most organizations want one system because of our reporting and they can look at all the data across the whole world. But on the other hand, you really need specific separate approaches, from a technology standpoint, some things that will work better in Brazil may not work in the U S or in Costa Rica, and that's not going to work in APAC. And so for us, I think, we try to have a consistent approach across the team, but play to the strengths. I know in the UK and other areas you have to deal with compliance issues and where they're different in the U.S.It's definitely not a one size fits all, but the training, the collaboration, like I was part of our CRM implementation and the first time I tried to do it, it was like, hey, we have this Salesforce license that we could use. Do you think you could custom build something? I spent probably four months of my life, it was at least twice a week for four hours each time trying to work with a developer. To build something custom. And this was a long time ago. And, I found out pretty quickly that this is not going to work because of all the nomenclatures of a sales system, taking that for recruiting. So then when we went and purchased a CRM, I think the biggest thing that we found was that, you know, the training, how do you do that?And how do you get people excited about it?And then have a consistent approach, because, what I tag in the U.S as, San Jose, it's San Jose, California, but San Jose in Costa Rica is a different place. So we need to figure these things out ahead of time. Max: Yeah. And the compliance layer is for sure, also another layer of complexity and people consume media differently. Right? In each place. So going back to the employee story and communicating, and experience brands the content needs to be published across multiple channels, I assume. And the channels that work in one place, work less than another. Lena, how do you manage this like a little media empire?Lena: I like that from now on, we're using that. We have global social channels, so we have our Experian life, social channels on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and then we have our Experian LinkedIn account. And one of the first things I did is virtually sat down with each of the regions and identified: who was doing this off the side of their desk at this point. And we started to move people in which, mostly recruiters were doing this off the side of their desk, like, you know, lane, the track as they ran. And so being able to identify who my resources were in each region and who could actually dedicate some time to taking a step back and putting together a content strategy.So what type of content works in your area? What will especially resonate when it comes to, employer value proposition and what are the subtle nuances and sometimes not so subtle of what may appeal to someone in Bulgaria that won't necessarily in Allen, Texas. Making sure that we were creating content that had real employee faces in it real stories and hit on things that were going to resonate locally and regionally was a big part of our content strategy. And then what we did is created a calendar that we all were able to collaborate on so that we have this through line of global content, but then we also have regular regional content that's coming out. And to underscore how important it was that we start to globalize our content, we created a campaign that was easily localized, which we called what's your next. And that resonated both internally with employees, what their next personal goal and professional goal, was. And then also externally what's your next, in your career? So externally with candidates. And this really had legs.It resonated in each region. So we were able to start to embed this visual identity of our employer brand across the social channels and unify the content globally while still having that regional flavor in the content. And at this point now we have about 35 people that touch our employer brands and our social media channels.Just the social media channels that are part of the candidate experience around the world. So now we have plenty of our heads together to be able to drive the strategy in each region. But yeah, initially it was overwhelming because like I said, what works in one place isn't going to work in another.So it really came down to not trying to take on that as one person and think, you know best, but really putting your ego aside. Coming to each region, rather identifying who your resources are and then saying, how can I help you amplify your local message globally?Max: Well, I can't tell you how many companies I've come across who have kind of like cut the legs and arms of their foreign operations because they said, no, we've gotta centralize all branding decisions. I guess that's how you give them freedom, right.You create a theme and then you let them build around that. And then of course they have to follow, like we said, local regulations. Chris: I think the other thing too Max is that like, what Lena's done is the fact that she's focused on talent acquisition is a huge game changer for us because a lot of companies, organizations have their branding team, but it's more focused on corporate branding and it's not specific to the talent that you're bringing in.And so that has allowed us to show up at conferences in areas where we really want people to leave and know, hey, this is what Experian is and really understand what our messages. I mean, we had a great experience last year at the Grace Hopper experience, which is the Grace Hopper celebration is about 21,000 women technologists all in one place.And, you know, with Lena to be able to come there, and be live tweeting and we're doing all kinds of contests and what a difference that is versus, you know, recruiters trying to do things that they think, “Oh yeah, Hey, I have a, Facebook, you know, profile and I have you know, 10 friends. So I must be really good at this.” And you have no idea how many people were applying when I posted that role that were recruiters that were like, “Hey, I think I know how to do branding.” Definitely a big change for us and, congrats to Lena for taking us into the next level of innovation.Max: Bringing somebody from entertainment is probably a very inspired choice. I guess you needed to put a layer of polish on some of the employee generated content, maybe?Lena: Yeah, a lot of the direction when I first started was just to make us cool. Quote, unquote, so very specific. So taking a look, talking with each of the recruiters again, within each region and saying, what is the hardest sell about Experian?You know, again, going back to what are your pain points? How can I be a resource? But really that's how we approached it. So when you sell Experian, what are the things people are most surprised to know about that? That we're innovative, that we consider ourselves a tech company, you know, these types of perceptions because we've been around for over a hundred years that we want to either dispel certain perceptions or reinforce. That helped me map out my strategy. So, okay. These are our priorities. That if we want to be seen as an innovative company, then we need to hear from our innovators, right?So let's reach out to our technologists. And then I would work with the recruiters who are your top technologists, who are your great hires in the tech space that we currently employ. Let's have them tell their stories and let's do that on stack overflow and let's look at different ways to attract tech talent. So that's just one example, but the recruiters really are the gatekeepers. They have been a wealth of information of giving you the truth. This is the honest truth of how people feel, the pluses and the minuses. We need more of this and less of that. And that's my job is to try to do that through an authentic storytelling way.I'm looking at the experience, which it looks like it's your set of a hundred plus shows. Max: I had no idea the company was that old, I don't know if this is your Experian or another company that I'm looking at. Lena: That's the old logo top. There you go. That's our new one.Max: So then the newest logo. When, when did that come out? The rebrand and, you know, were you there?Chris: Yeah, it's been, it's been around, 7 years. You know, the other thing too, while you're looking at that is having a creative, I don't know if you want to call it almost like a recruiter toolkit. Hey, I'm going to post something on LinkedIn. Do we have any display, you know, any kind of creative assets that we can use? is such a difference versus just, here's the link and here's your crappy job description and hopefully people are interested. Because we want to take advantage of the leaders in the organization,that have large networks in specific technology pockets and use those. So I want to tag other people in my posts, but I want to make sure that they're focused on a specific network of people. And it's not just like somebody that doesn't fit the exact skills because otherwise you're just creating more volume and more applicants for your recruiting team to go through. Max: More work for everybody. And so that little toolkit, you talked about a pitch book and, I guess you're also talking about creative contents, animated gifs and that kind of stuff, videos. Yeah. Lena: And also taking a look at opportunities to microbrand. So using your email signature, one of the first things we did is curate it, hi-rez awards logos for our employee resource groups and encouraged the recruiters to link out to our social channels, have a link to our career site that we're hiring. But also these awards tell a story at a glance, so taking advantage of those visuals and all those different touch points throughout the day when you're exchanging emails that you're able to amplify that story. Max: I'm sure they work. I mean, that's how I buy my wine. I see this one award on the bottle. I'm like, okay, it must be okay then.Okay, well, love to hear your thoughts on how the world has changed in 2020, and looking at it not from a traumatic standpoint and we're all shaking today  as the election results are going to come in soon. But thinking more about it from an opportunity standpoint, I'm sure your talent pool is changing and the way you're looking at where to hire is changing, tell us a little bit about that and how this new work from home world has affected your TA strategy. Chris: I think from a recruiting standpoint, it's  both an opportunity, but then a challenge, I think in both things, because a lot of businesses were under the assumption and across probably the world that we need these people to have butts in seats, like they literally need to be in an office. How are they going to be successful without that? That's one mentality, but then you have the other mentality of, as long as they have internet and understand how to collaborate that piece of it, is always going to be successful. One of the things that I find super interesting right now over the last six months, the written communication and listening skills are so important.Like when you're looking to hire a recruiter or just because they're doing those recruiting strategy meetings and it's not in person. And sometimes you can't, you know, when I was on the outside as a recruiting search professional, I would try to learn how can I learn this culture and tell other people about it?Because if I don't know about it, what am I going to say, hey, it's a great company. They're going to pay you a lot of money. And, you can start next week, you know, Yeah. Right. and so I had to get good at the pitch of each company, but when you're inside and you see all the things and you're like, okay, I feel like the talent of managing people that are virtual is going to continue to grow.And you will see that over the next couple of years. most organizations now, the Amazons, the Googles, are all saying, you don't ever have to come back into an office if you don't want to. We've had a good opportunity virtually for a long time. Like I started, like I said, in 2012, I think I went two years before I actually put my foot in an office.I don't know if they're afraid of me. Maybe I came across as a little scary. But I think that in this time I've been promoted three times and I've been virtual the whole time. I do travel. Max: That's working for you. Chris: Yeah. It's working for me. But Lena, you know, I mean, they always say that you recruit people that are like yourself, but that was one of the things that I knew for the role that she was going to go into and build out.It's a global role. You can't be expected to be in the office these hours and then work all through the night. And you've got all these different stakeholders that are across the world. So I think that piece of it, I knew with her coming from the entertainment and that social media agency background, she was used to working, but it was communication style, I think was a piece of it. And then also. Tactical versus strategic. Can you do both and be good at both? So, and Lena, you can talk about that. Lena: Well, I was going to talk about, and answer your question Max, around how COVID-19 has, kind of playing into our approach and our strategy and our tactics. And  the very first thing we did is global comms gave us a directive to lead with empathy. So everyone who touched communications, whether with potential candidates and we gave recruiters guidance on how to talk to candidates during this time, with each other, with leadership, and just with consumers, with clients. It was “lead with empathy” was the overarching directive.And what this allowed us to do is crystallize how we were going to present ourselves that we are a strong company. Like I said, over a hundred years old, that we have weathered storms before that we are stable, and that after a time period, we're still hiring, we're currently hiring right now. So it was important for us to lead with empathy in our conversations.Like our recruiters were saying, we understand this may be not top of mind for you right now to be approached about an opportunity for your career, but I just want you to know I'm impressed with your background. And I would love to connect if you feel comfortable with that or, you know, virtually obviously. But really having a shift in our tone that we were a leader in this space that we were confident that we were stable. and that Experian is a company that you can rely upon. Also taking a look at how we cared for our people during this time, we immediately went into action. We have an aspire ERG employee resource group that built this beautiful guidebook that week to week had themes and resources, both internal and external resources to make sure that our people were taken care of.We transitioned our entire customer service team, in three weeks, something that would have taken 8 to 10 weeks to do, prior to this, but our IT department just worked around the clock to make sure that our employees could seamlessly start working from home. And that they had what they needed in place.So taking care of each other, emotionally, making sure that we were set up to continue to be successful. We had enhanced COVID sick, time benefit beyond what was required. And our return to office plans, there has been transparency, suite communication, which has been very reassuring to see our global CEO, Brian Cassin and our North America, CEO, Craig Boundy and Justin Hastings our CHRO  in North America, from their homes, connect with us and say that we're in this together and really make us feel that we were being supported and that we were safe. The fact that our CHRO  was texting me, just saying, I want to check in on you, you know, how many employees was he reaching out to so that you didn't feel alone , during this time?So I would say it has affected how we communicate both internally and externally. We also launched some social media campaigns, like the stay safe campaign and all of the resources, the free resources and dashboards and heat maps that we have for consumers, that are all free of charge, also for the healthcare industry, for the government.So  using this as an opportunity to show all the different ways that Experian can help our communities and help the world at large deal with this pandemic has been incredibly gratifying to be a part of. And also being able to share those stories, across social and with each other and make sure that we're all aware of these stories so that we can share them.Like Chris mentioned earlier, a lot of people don't know everything that Experian does. Experian people don't even know everything that we do. So that's also part of our goal.  It's so much easier to recruit if, like Chris said, how am I going to sell the culture if I don't understand the culture?So it's so much easier to recruit if you're aware of all of these proof points of what a great company Experian is for its community, for its people. And, all the more reason in addition to like Chris said, we pay, well, can you start next week? So in addition to that, being able to have work with purpose, I feel  that's what I do and what the recruiters do go hand in hand, because I can constantly share actions that we're taking that show that we have worked with purpose.And then hopefully  when the recruiters come in and reach out to an amazing candidate, they can say, okay, I've seen what you've been doing, I've been following your social channels and, we'd like to get to a place where, it makes that conversation, that much easier, like when you get a call from a Netflix and you're like, I'm in, when can I interview, right? That's  my goal for Experian.Max: Of course. So I think that was probably a very, very timely move. I've certainly heard, other employers struggle in 2020. Because people were afraid of going back to work when we went back to the office. So leading with empathy, I'm sure has helped to build your talent pool, and create a bonding experience for your entire team. A way to join in on the experience during a time of a crisis, and to face that time together. Which will certainly help you in retention next year, which will probably be a new area of focus. Lena: Yeah. We're already seeing that. You're absolutely right about that. Chris: We actually had a talent summit that we brought everyone together and this was pre COVID. So this was October of last year. And, the timing couldn't have been better on map because we brought everyone together. We kinda got everybody unified. This is where we're going. This is the direction we're going. And it's one thing to say, hey, we're a people first company, but it's another thing to actually follow through with that.I think we kind of set that groundwork and then just followed through and we already kind of knew what we needed to do, so interesting times for sure. Max: Good timing. And I really liked your advice, Chris, on finding managers who are strong at the written word, because working asynchronously across multiple time zones as your team is doing, the rest of the world is so important.So, yeah I think the written word is making a strong comeback. Chris: I can do probably our podcast on resume writing and Lena: What not to do. Chris: Then two pages, I mean, and you know, but that kind of goes to that being concise. And you're really just trying to get your foot in the door.And you need to do the same thing with recruitment messaging. You know I constantly get people reaching out and asking things and whether they know I'm a developer or maybe they have a TA job, but less is more. It's amazing to me, but if you think about that, 144 characters, If it's more than that people aren't going to respond.And the average recruiter looking at our resumes, probably taking less than 20 seconds, it's probably less than 10. And that's what I would definitely tell people as they continue to grow their TA function is: try to teach or even put on your career site that, this is what we're looking for, and this is kind of the best practices, and I would highly recommend people with resumes less than two pages please. Max: And that applies for us toor right Lena? Short content, bite-sized content for a short attention span. Lena: Yeah, I was going to say you learn that lesson pretty quickly with content marketing, what works, and less is always more. Being as impactful as you can, as quickly as you can works across the board.And I think one of the things Experian does really well when it comes to recruiting is taking a look at our job descriptions and doing research around what words may be perceived differently by women than they may by men. Looking at the psychological,  looking at things like that. Also sharing the learnings about  content marketing or SEO with our recruiters, for instance, on your LinkedIn profile. That very first sentence about you is the most important thing. That's what comes up in your, in Google search when a candidate searches your name or, you know, even if a recruiter were to search Google, a candidate's name, the first thing that's going to come off is that, for your LinkedIn profiles, that first sentence, you know, tidbits like that. Going back to what Chris was mentioning about arming our recruiters with the toolkit, things they can put in their signature. As I mentioned, creative, that's impactful quickly, like we're talking about, and also some of these tips and tricks around, building their personal brand and making sure they're optimizing that on platforms like LinkedIn. Max: Wonderful. Well I think that's a lot of great tips for the audience and thank you very much. Lena and Chris for sharing. I'll throw in my own personal tip, if you're writing your LinkedIn profile, do not talk about yourself on the third person, it's awkward.Lena: No only Trump seems to be able to get away with that. Max: Oh, the politics are back in yes! Lena: I brought it back. Max: Okay. Well, enjoy election nights. Lena and Chris, thanks for spending the last minutes pre-election with me and with our audience, by the time they listened to this show, of course, we may have a new president in the U.S or an old one, either way a good show for everybody to watch, and I hope, they enjoyed the time we spent together as well. hope to reconnect soon. Chris and Lena: Thanks for having us max. Thank you, max.Max: That was Lena Lotsey and Chris Brady from Experian a few years ago, Chris brought in, decided to hire someone to manage the global employer brand for Experian and decided to make the unconventional choice to bring in talent from outside the industry. He decided to bring in someone from the entertainment world, who could create content and distribute content and build stories that could inspire talent acquisition teams globally. That was Lena. And I think inspiration for a lot of companies on how to build employer brand and look for talent, where you would normally look. Hope you enjoyed this three party interview and that you'll come back for more. Please subscribe to the Recruitment Hackers Podcast, and please feel free to contact me if you'd like to be interviewed with your colleagues as well. Three's a party happy to welcome you and your friends on the show, just contact me at hello@talkpush.com.Thank you.

Happy new year and welcome to the new decade! Wait, new decade... hard to believe it's already been 10 years since our last decade, and ten more since the last before - which marked another millennium. Oh how time flies. But, sometimes putting everything in perspective is helpful to understand our experiences and what we've accomplished in the past, not to mention to better understand what future days might bring! Yes, you guessed it. This is an episode on new year's resolutions, but it's also an episode to start off 2020 with a head start specifically for the Instructional Designer/ Learning Professional. Upcoming trends, changes in learning and training thinking, the future of our industry, formulating (or at least learning about) new strategies and starting off the year with some positive reinforcement on how far we've come already. Did we mention we'll have on special guest Will Thalhiemer, PhD to chat with Brent and Chris? Welcome to our first session of 2020! Looking forward to getting IDIODC with you. Will brings research-based wisdom to the practice of workplace learning as the CEO of Work-Learning Research Inc. Consultant, Research Translator, Author, Speaker, Instructional Designer, Writer, Advocate, Gentle Curmudgeon, Debunker. Check out his website here: https://www.worklearning.com/ Become virtual friends with the IDIODC gang on twitter. Remember you can always stay in the loop by searching through the #IDIODC tag: Will: @WillWorkLearn https://twitter.com/WillWorkLearn Brent: @BSchlenker https://twitter.com/bschlenker Chris: @Chris_V_W https://twitter.com/Chris_V_W IDIODC: @TeamIDIODC https://twitter.com/TeamIDIODC Brent Schlenker is dominKnow's Community Manager. Chris Van Wingerden is dominKnow's Sr. VP Learning Solutions. Interested in learning more about dominKnow? Sign up for our next live platform demo to learn why we do powerful eLearning-authoring best. (And get a free 14-day trial after you watch the demo!) https://www.dominknow.com/demonstration.html

Download this Episode On today's episode, we talk about the shiny object, ways to build your business and modern marketing. Please leave us a review and subscribe for more! reThink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 24:20 RTRE 64 – Get Off My Lawn: A Guide to Modern Marketing in Real Estate [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. Chris here with Christian and Nate. What's going on guys? [Christian]: Hey fellas. [Nathan]: What's up? Another week since last week. And I don't know. You know, the usual grind here. It's… [Christian]: You seem excited to be alive. [Chris]: ow's your CRM coming Nate? [laugter] [Nathan]: It's gonna get done after I get back from Key West next week. So… [Christian]: Let me know. I will walk you through it.  [Chris]: Man. [Nathan]: Work hard play hard boys. Work hard play hard. [Chris]: Must be good to be a real estate agent.  [Nathan]: I guess so. [Christian]: It is good to be an agent.  [Nathan]: I like it. What are we talking about today? [Chris]: Well we were just talking about [censored] marketing in real estate and how not to do it. You were just showing us a sign of a real estate agent that put his sign out in the middle of the Utah backcountry. On a…what was that Nate? [Nathan]: I mean literally it's in bum [censored] Egypt. I mean it was out…I mean literally it's a like a 16 mile hike. Like I mean maybe it's genius because here I am talking about it. Right. I don't know. [Chris]: Good marketing. [Nathan]: You know, I mean I don't know. But literally like it's like who's gonna see this, you know. Like you spent a…I mean what's an average sign cost? Hundred bucks? [Chris]: 47. [Nathan]: What's that? [Chris]: 47. [Nathan]: You use the cheap one.  [Christian]: Depends on how many you buy at a time. [Chris]: That's a temporary sign with the thing in the middle. [Nathan]: OK well either way I feel like this guy throw away 47 dollars. Because I doubt he'll ever go back to get it. But, you know, bad marking. You know, Christian was asking me do I do marketing. No. I mean yes and no. I think we've talked a little bit about that. That Ohio running realtor Instagram is of course my marketing. Even though it has nothing to do with Realty. [Christian]: Your Donut Saturday with your son. That's marketing. [Nathan]: It is but it had…I mean that was actually started before I became an agent. So I'll be at…a ton of people identify me through the donut Saturday. But I don't…I don't…I don't mail stuff out. I don't, you know, I'm not out blasting stuff on social media. I really hate most of that stuff. I think there's…there's more organic ways to do it. and I generally find that there's more bad examples than good examples. [Christian]: Yeah so you're saying that there are different ways to do marketing? [Nathan]: Yes but…let's go…there's…there's many different ways to do marketing. The question is can you do it well? And my answer would be no. Most agents do not do it well. [Christian]: So there's plenty of examples of bad marketing. How do you…how do you not do bad marketing and do good marketing? What is that? What does that mean? What are those standards? [Nathan]: Well I think…OK so I, you know, how do you not do bad marketing? OK well that'd be like saying all right, it's same reason I don't take pictures. Right. I'm not a [censored] photographer. And I'm not in marketing either.  If you have a marketing background, maybe I get it. But most of the stuff I see agents do is poor. It's poor video. It's poor pictures. They're there…I don't know what even the terminology is when they create their own business cards. It's just horrible. Like there's a reason there are people they get paid in marketing. And you should go pay them to do it. I mean you get a better result. I'd rather be really… [Christian]: Do you? Do you Nate? [Nathan]: Yeah I think so absolutely.  [Chris]: So please do not go buy the printable like perforated business cards and then use your word art. And print them. [laughter] [Nathan]: Yeah word art. Yeah right. Well you see a lot of that. You see really bad names of real estate teams. And, you know, it's just like oh man it's so tacky. I mean there's…I guess there's a place for them because they're still doing business. But… [Christian]: Well…well I'll back this up a little bit. I don't know if you wanna scratch this or not. So, you know, we've got a bit… [Chris]: No this is all good.  [Nathan]: I know you've been picking at soething.  [Chris]: This is alright.  [Christian]: So so far we've kind of [censored] around about bad marketing which is very subjective. Because… [Chris]: Welcome to the water cooler. [Christian]: What's that? [Chris]: Welcome to the water cooler.  [Christian]: Right, you know, like I myself when it comes to marketing try to put myself at the consumers shoes. And say “OK what's, you know, what…what's the objective of the marketing and am I accomplishing that?” You know, and so I think there's unfortunately most…at least in my experience, most, you know, brokerages and agents. You know, there's kind of the standard of like “Yeah well you do a farm, you know, and you just solds and just listed postcards and you have, you know, your face on your business card and, you know, just kind of all this really low bar like everyone does it. Everyone's told to do it.”  And people who aren't agents don't pay any attention to it. They don't care. You know, it doesn't bring them any value. It goes right in the recycling. You know, you direct me on stuff. And so that brings a question about what is…what is good marketing. Yeah I know what caught my attention as a new agent when I saw social media stuff that stood out or community events or, you know, things that I thought were interesting and unique in this space.  And I think that's kind of the key. Is like is it different? Is it gonna catch people's attention in an industry of white noise? Or, you know…And so I think a lot of that there's not just like hey you do this one thing and that's good marketing. I think in this world of noise, you have to have many touch points. It has to be consistent. It has to be driven towards a specific end result. You know, whether that's someone saving up for email or a meeting or liking your page or following you. You know, like it all has to be designed in a consistent way to…to push people towards a certain desired objective. And most people don't approach marketing in that way. There's kind of like half hazard-ly throw stuff out there without a desired intention in mind.  [Chris]: It's a weak thought Christian. Among real estate agents. [Christian]:  What's that? [Chris]: To think about how the consumer is gonna like the content and the message. [Christian]: Yeah.  [Chris]: You know, it's…I'm not a marketer. By all means like that's not my forte. I can train a real estate agent to sell and have a successful business. I could teach them some of the techniques that they should think about when they're finding how to market themselves. But by all means I am NOT a marketer. Like I'm not gonna create a campaign. I am NOT gonna run all that stuff. I'll leave that to other people who are more creative than I am and just let them do their thing. [Christian]: But it certainly had that desired effect to you once. And you could send that to a marketer. [Chris]: I…I know what we need to accomplish. And so here in Georgia, we…we actually do recruit new agents at my firm. So we have…we get all of the information for the people who pass and we send out collateral. We send out like we send out really nice marketing pieces to them. And so my wife recently got her real estate license to help out in the office because she's a part owner in the company. So some of the things that she's doing, she needs a license now. So she got her license and just for the hell of it we decided “OK we're gonna see what other brokerages are sending out.” And it ranges. Some of them send out, you know, one eight-and-a-half by 11 piece of paper that's a letter. Some of them send out postcards. Some of them send out…there's one KW office. They send out like this worksheet. Right. And it's got this three boxes or three columns and a bunch of rows. And each row it's like “Check about if this broker offers this.” It's like a broker checklist. Interview other brokers and see if they have everything we have. [Christian]: Like a comparison sheet. [Chris]: Yes. Yes that's exactly what it is. And that was probably the most creative. There was a Coldwell Banker office, it sent three po…three postcards from the exact same broker. Brokers face on it. And then it has like no message. Right like the postcard says like “Be bold.” Or like “Be strong.” Like on one. And it's like you've got two or three words taking up the entirety of this like six by nine postcard. And it doesn't say anything of value at all. It's just like motivational [censored]. So then like we look at what we're sending out. And we're sending out this like…we're sending out two mailings, in depth packet of everything that the company offers on this. Like premium glossy photo. And I'm like “You know what? This is why people call us off of this stuff. It's because these other brokers that are in our market doing this, it's garbage.” You got to…you got to focus on what the consumer is gonna want. I'm glad you do that. [Christian]: Sure. Well I think to, you know, the key in on what you said, you know, it's a little cliche these days or whatever. But talking about bringing value. Right. Like you've got to resonate with whoever you're trying to get in front of with something that…that they're going to, well, resonate with. You know, there's gonna be a value that they use. That…that catchphrase. And so it's typically not going to be “Hey I just sold this house or I closed in five days.” They don't give a [censored]. They don't know what that means. Like, you know, but if you are like, you know, you're specializing in a certain community. And, you know, you're sending out something who says “Hey have you checked out this new pizza joint that they just opened? Here's the interview with the owner.” You know, like that doesn't have anything to do the real estate. But you're getting your name and message out there. In alignment with “Hey this person is actually invested in the community. Actually supporting that business of actually providing something to the people that would frequent that business, who might find that interesting.” As an example of, you know, a community aligned marketing strategy that's, you know, one touch piece amongst many.  You know, whether that's, you know, if you're gonna do a farm have that be consistent. And there's technology you can utilize to do, you know, retargeting Facebook or Google Ads that, you know, have that consistent message to those same people you're mailing. If they, you know…you know that kind of thing. But that takes planning. That takes technical expertise. And I think that's a far cry from, you know, Nate was saying “Hey I'm not a marketer. Hire that [censored] out.” And I agree with. That but there's so a lot of low bar marketing stuff out there, that's like…My last brokerage, you know, they've had like a social media company come in who basically said “Hey, you know what Facebook is? We'll take care of that for you. And what they meant by that is “If you sign up with us, we're gonna send out this exact same [censored] generic posting…” [Chris]: That you would. [Christian]: Yeah right. And like, you know, I'd be falling for some this people. And you'd see the exact same posting on six different agents sites in the same company, because they're just sending out the same generic [censored]. I'm like that does more to harm you and your reputation that does to like not send anything out at all. [Chris]: Definitely. One of the major things that I learned when…when we started doing SEO on our website, is that for any third party, like if you really want to get your money's worth, you have to hire in-house. Like if you're not hiring in-house, you're just going out and hiring a firm, unless they are a premium level firm where you have a dedicated account manager that is spending X number of hours on your account every month…you're just not gonna get your money's worth. [Christian]: Right and it's not gonna be cheap. [Chris]: Hire in-house.  [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: Where you have to monitor it in-house and then outsource the work itself. But to just go out and say “Here take care of it.” That's…that's like, you know, you're eating in a den of snakes.  [Christian]: Right. Well and if you're gonna hire that out, if you're an agent you're like “Hey marketing is not my forte. I'm gonna hire it out.” you better make sure that wherever you hire is asking you questions. To make sure that that content is, you know, in your voice. It's, you know, it's not gonna be, you know, if someone who's following X agent knows you personally, and they see something coming out, they're like “That doesn't sound like them. They wouldn't send something out like that.” Like now you've got a authenticity issue. And, you know, you're going to be doing more damage. I mean especially as you we're seeing, you know, the demographic shift and the impact of social media. What people care about is…is authenticity, being genuine. If they catch wind of “Oh you just hiring out some generic someone, someone, some bot or some company is running your social media…yeah unfriend. Not interested. I'm not going to work with them because, you know, they can't even bother to post real stuff from themselves.” [Chris]: If you're looking to hire an ad agency, you're gonna be on retainer for a minimum of 5k a month. And that does not include your ad spend. Like if you want a good ad agency, if…if you're just looking to hire, you know, a marketing consultant who's gonna charge you, you know, 150 dollars a month, for this number of posts on social media, it…it's…you might as well light your money on fire. It's not going to do anything for you. [Christian]: Well there's different…I mean they're just from models, you know. I mean I'm a very DIY person. But I also know that me, I'm not a professional marketer. Like I know, you know, kind of the strategy aspect of it and…but, you know, I've hired like a local marketer. Who would sit down with me and flush out, you know “OK this is what you have going on. How to be aware where are your missing pieces. And not leverage things where they're not connected.” That kind of stuff and kind of map it out for me. And then I go execute it. Now if you can hire someone to execute it's, that is gonna be a lot more expensive. Because that's very times, you know, intensive.  [Chris]: Yeah I mean and that's gonna be the difference. Like you can…you can bring in a consultant, for almost anything. But then you have to do the work. And the consultant is not gonna come up with the whole idea for you. They're gonna help you work through it. So but if you want…but if you're…My point is, you know, if you're hiring, you know, the hundred and fifty hundred and ninety nine dollar marketing company online, that's a subscription, versus you really want advertising, it's a difference.  Like you've got that retainer every single month. And you've got to hit that spend limit with them. And that does not include your ads. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: They'll go through and they'll do everything from your direct mail pieces, to video creation, to all of it. [Christian]: Right. And that's gonna be an actual marketing campaign with multiple platforms and tiers. Not just “Hey we're sending out social media posts on your Facebook.” It's entirely different. And I mean it's some agents who don't, you know, see the benefit of that. Or like “I don't have time for that” you know, like Nate. I mean he stays busy enough and successful enough to not need that. But…but I mean the stuff he does organically is still marketing. It's just not your typical overt cheesy agent stuff. Which I think speaks…it's a lot more powerful than if you did the traditional “Just sold, just listed, hey look at me, I'm in an open house.” You know, and everything's just overtly real estate. Which it doesn't resonate with the majority of people, the majority of the time. [Nathan]: No and, you know, I think you actually…what's you're gonna see and unbeknownst to you guys, but you're gonna see me doing a little more marketing here in the future. But yeah well I have the luxury though of…Our company just brought on a marketing director that has a very strong marketing background. So we will have an in-house marketing department that… [Christian]: Nice. [Nathan]: Make, you know, will be able to take on what visions I have. Or I don't want to say visions. I call them thoughts. Yeah I mean I had a meeting with her last week. She's awesome and I…I equate what she can do to what like my tattoo guy does. Right. I come up with this wild little sketch on a piece of paper that looks like a third-grader did it. I say “Hey here.” And then a week later he hands it back and I'm like “I don't know how you got that, but it's perfect.” You know… [Christian]: Sure. They will take your vision and make it into something. [Nathan]: And make it into something and Karen will be able to do that for it. Some…a lot of brokerages I don't think have, you know, that good fortune of having a marketing director that has a very solid background with a large company that can create some of these things we want. Within the vision that you need to do. I think it's important that whatever your theme is, you have consistency with it. And a lot of people don't do that. I think a lot of real estate and what you do is marketing. Right. So if you're gonna do it, do it well. [Christian]: Sure. Well I think a lot of agents don't realize it like what they're putting out there, you know, is represent themselves. You know, because I mean you can have your marketing and your advertising. Typically people use them interchangeably. But they're not, you know. Like for us, you know, we just, you know, ponied…pointed up. And…and hired Max the designs to…to do our marketing piece, you know, pieces. Which is essentially a design firm, you know, small design team down Los Angeles that walks you through a creation process of like everything, from color scheme to…to fonts to like what's the feel, you know, your brokerage has. And all those kind of stuff to make stuff that's customized for you. All the pieces are consistent. Totally customized to provide a platform. All your agents can log in and create their own stuff. Customize it, you know, download it.  Like all that is like the bare minimum marketing pieces that you can then use for presentations or social media stuff. Or…or whatever. But, you know, something like that gives you a consistency for your agents, for your firm. But then on top of that you've got the actual “OK I'm gonna run a marketing campaign and that requires, you know, some intentional thought behind. What's my desire goal? What messages are gonna resonate with whom? What platforms win?” You know, much more complex than just aesthetic marketing piece.  You're muted.  [Nathan]: Everybody got quiet. So… [Chris]: No one's muted. We just were talking…[laughter]. All right. Well I think that is definitely you now… [Christian]: Helpful. Hopefully it's interesting. Oh boy this is the funny part.  [Nathan]: Anyway.  [Chris]: No I mean it's…it's great. We…we haven't put anything in place like that for our firm right now. Even though we have a…our listing coordinator has a marketing background. She's actually in portfolio school right now. So to kind of an extent we can…we have that ability. She'll bounce some ideas off of us. We'll bounce ideas off of her. Actually just to make sure we're not doing anything stupid.  But for everything with us, it's a lot of…it's word-of-mouth. And I think that that's another type of marketing that people don't pay enough attention to. Going back a few years to when Scott Stratten [phonetics] talked about on marketing. At Inman he said, you know “If you want word of mouth, what do you do? You do something worth talking about.” So there…there's that whole aspect to marketing our businesses. Doing things like Ritz Carlton. Doing things like Disney. Doing things…taking so much advanced precaution with our clients, thinking about their problems before they ever have it. That that way the client has no other alternative but to say how great their experience was. And I think that that's something that, you know, we need to figure out or put more focus on also, because that stuff's free. [Christian]: Yeah well and that's what, you know, for all that you're leveraging the client experience. Right. It's how you do your business, you know. All the marketing advertising is how you build up from, you know, getting in front of people to get them to that place where they're your client. And then that experience comes in and the referral business can happen. It's all part of a, you know, a long cycle of business. Hopefully. [Chris]: Absolutely. So I think that's good. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: Any final thoughts while you're at it? [Christian]: I would say as an agent, know your strengths, know your weaknesses. Don't try to do everything. Hire out the stuff that you're not an expert in. In this case marketing. But, you know, you got to find…you got to find someone that can draw out what that vision is. So that it's consistent. Enhances your brand as opposed to completely contradicts your…consistency. [laughter] Words. [Chris]: Nate any final thoughts? [Nathan]: No. Stay off Facebook. Don't request me. [laughter]. Get off my lawn you kids. Seriously I was like…all of that stuff that everybody else does, don't [censored] do it.  [Christian]: There's that. [Nathan]: I don't want to be your friend because you're not gonna sell me a house. All right. All right. Guys good luck and hope it works out for you. [Chris]: Yeah. All right so basically there's different types of marketing. Figure out what you want. Avoid the shiny object. Don't think that you're gonna find something that is going to solve all of your problems for one low monthly subscription. And then don't leave out the word of mouth. Make sure you're doing the things for your clients in your daily business. Make sure that your clients are your number one focus. Because guess what? Costs a whole lot less to keep a client than it does to acquire a new one. Everybody this has been re:Think Real Estate. We'll catch you next Monday. [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode We've all been there on our real estate path. Today we discuss the difference between calling ourselves a professional and actually being a professional. reThink Real Estate Podcast Trannscription Audio length 28:02 RTRE 63 – Being a Pro vs. Saying You're a Pro [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. Chris Lazarus here. Here with Christian Harris and Nathan White. Nate you've got a bone to pick with some people. What's going on dude? [Nathan]: I mean call it a bone or not. But so I was just recently on a trip with some buddies of mine. And I was ranting. Or we were individually ranting I should say, about our industries that we respectively work in. And of course I got some puzzled looks and different things and, you know, about my rants. And ironically enough, one of the guys on the trip called me the day after we got back.  And he says “I have new respect for what you were talking about.” I said “What do you mean?” He says “Listen, you know, my…my aunt, you know, she…she passed away and…and one of my family members is selling her house. And the agent that my aunt hired said ”Listen I don't really want you telling anybody that somebody passed away in the home. Yada yada yada.”” The agent responded with “Trust me this is what I do for a living.” My friend then said “Please ask me how many houses has she sold.” I said “Well Larry how many houses as she sold?” He said zero. And he said “I totally get it.” He said this individual, you know, is making it appear I guess if you would, that they're an expert in our industry and, you know, what we do, but they've not sold a home. They have a license. Right. They're a realtor. Right. But they've done zero business. So again there…there is there's some delineation here between who's an agent who is a licensee. Right. And I get it. Just wound up. I mean I get it, you know, but I don't I also don't get it. I was taught “Fake it til you make it.” When I started. And I don't…I don't think that's the way to go. I think there's a lot of other paths to go through education and training and certain things, that I believe, you know, yourself and Christian both provide. But what would you two tell an agent in this situation? Right. [Chris]: Oh I wouldn't say…I would tell the agent “Look don't tell people this is what you do for a living until you actually make a living off of it.” [Nathan]: Christian? [Christian]: I mean my whole thing…because I was kind of taught same thing. Kind of “Fake it til you make it. Yo here's some scripts to make it sound like, you know, what you're talking about that you don't.” What I tell my new agents is like, you know, “Don't…don't come out and say “Hey I'm brand new. I don't know what I'm doing.” But positioning in such a way where you're saying “Hey, you know, I'm working closely with my designated broker. If I don't have the answer I can get it. You're getting two for the price of one. It's not just new agent flailing out there trying to pretend like they know what they're doing.”” So, you know, essentially don't lie but also don't come straight out say “Hey I don't know what I'm doing and I have no confidence. You know, I'm probably gonna [censored] up and [censored] over your listing, you know, I'm a seller.” But at the same time don't…you merely like you yeah you have all experienced in the world when you don't. because it's not hard to find out information about how experienced or how long an agent's been licensed. [Chris]: Doesn't even require an open records request. You can just look it on Zillow. [Christian]: Yeah I mean and…and…and that's it. And it may not be the case with every real estate firm. But for us, you know, we closely work with our new agents to make sure they're providing the best experience. They know what they're doing. They're not, you know, floundering, you know. And I know business brokerages are supposed to do that. [Chris]:Floundering. Like flopping around flopping around [laughter].  [Christian]: Yeah flopping around the land.  [Nathan]: Like a fish out of water is what it looks like. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: It's hard…it's hard for a new agent to mask that when, you know, you don't really know how the process works, and you don't really know the direction you're supposed to be going and what you're supposed to be saying to your client, you know. [Nathan]: Wouldn't this be an interesting industry change if you had to have some intern or externship with so many transactions under your belt before you were to able to go out and represent a buyer or seller? [Chris]: That makes sense. That's what we do for new agents. They have to have six transactions under their belt before the training wheels come off. At a minimum. And for the first six transactions they're heavily mentored through them. So they're…they're not alone. They have people like their first deals they've got a mentor that's going out. And…and working with them. Teaching them how to do the consults for the buyers. And for the listing consult. So that by the time that agent gets ready to go out and be on their own, they generally have a great idea of what they're doing. [Christian]: Yeah well that's a great way to do it. I mean I love how you formalize that. Obviously that takes, you know, a brokerage's,  you know, certain amount of experienced agents and size. And, you know… [Chris]: Yeah I'll let you know when we get at that level too. [laughter] [Christian]: It is a structure. Because you could say technically the industry requires it. but, you know, when the laws basically says, you know, “Additional designated broker oversight for the first two years” like that's really loose. And it's not, you know, it's not really…there's not really a standard for that. Even though technically new agents are supposed to be more heavily monitored. There's no…there's nothing in place a, you know, firm to firm, insuring that happens. [Chris]: Yeah I mean there…I was talking to somebody the other day he was telling me about a person who's making a switch from another firm. And this person was also a recruiter. And he was like “Yeah this person brought about a hundred and forty people over to the brokerage. And about a hundred and twenty of them left.” And I'm like “What?!” Like I don't even want to turn that number. Like I'll bring ten and one will leave. Like I'm not gonna turn a hundred and forty people to get twenty.  It's just ridiculous the lack of oversight that some of these brokerages put into actual retention and training and development. It's literally taking the pickle, throwing it at the wall and seeing which one sticks. [Christian]: Sure. Well I mean and it's well-known, and I've been saying this for years. You know, like most firms, you know, most of the industry is just focus on numbers. Like all we want is people in the seats. Licensed agents, you know. We're not really concerned about retention and training and empowering because there's gonna be, you know, a dozen new agents with, you know, dollar signs in their eyes waiting to take their spots. You know, when…when they fail. [Nathan]: It will be like “Oh let's look at our checklist. You have a license. Check. You have a pulse. Check. Oh yeah good. You can…you can join us.” And uh, you know, I often get the question “Hey what…what led to your success as an agent?” I don't want to call myself successful but I do well. And I know what I'm doing now. And I think a huge part of it and I will I will tap the shoulder if you would of the team lead, Tim Reel [phonetics], that I had at Keller Williams when I started, is…is that I…part of it… Let me rephrase this. I viewed it as an internship. Right. I knew I was gonna pay a steep cut on my team splits. And KW split. But I also knew I was gonna get an education. And I wasn't standing alone. I wasn't by myself. And I was constantly getting feedback or more importantly I was getting mentorship. I think that's what a lot of people want. And…and that helped me. And then when I did want to go out and do my own thing and kind of stand on my own feet as a solo agent, I had the capability to do that. So, you know, that's always been my win at KW. Don't…you're not a technology company. You're a training company. KW gave me some great bones. You gave me a great foundation. So any agent that is potentially listening to this, that's struggling or is thinking about coming an agent, I would tell “You…you want to do well? Go be on a team. Go…go learn.” I don't…I don't, you know, that's just me.  [Christian]: And I say you're pretty fortunate because, you know, I've heard, you know, I've heard many things as far as, you know, people kind of getting on team. I mean KW is kind of what they're known for. You know. But it's a…it could be very hit and miss. Because, you know… [Nathan]: Yes. [Christian]: I mean you could be, you know, you can be fortunate where the team lead is actually interested in mentoring and training, in empowering their team members. But I've also seen people that, you know, get on teams and all this is a call center. And they were promised “Hey we're gonna train you. We're gonna teach you this stuff.” And they're not learning anything except for making sales calls and scripts. You know, it could be very…very hit and miss, as far as the team structure goes and the attitude of the leadership. [Nathan]: Same as I tell a potential client. Interview realtors. I tell a potential realtor and if you have a lot of teams. [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: Interview teams. Interview brokers. Interview office staff. Interview whoever you can. I mean… [Nathan]: Interview your clients. You don't necessarily want all your clients that come to you.  [Chris]: No stay away from my clients. You're another agent. I don't want you talking to them. [laughter] [Christian]: Yeah I am gonna interview your clients. [Chris]: So…but this is…this brings us back to like a great point. Right. Because you've got three types of agents. You've got the full time agents. Right. These are the people that are in here all the time. These are the people that this is how we make a living. Then you have the part-time agents which I don't have an issue with part-time agents. Part-time agents they're putting in the hours. They may not be in at 40, 60, 80 hours a week. But they're in it 10, 20, 30 hours a week. And that's enough so that they generally understand what's happening in the industry. And they're able to build and maintain a client base and, you know, do a few deals every year. Then you've got the problem. The last type of agent it's the sometime agent. The agent that hangs their license. They're just a licensee. They're not in it full-time. They've got another job and they'll sell a house whenever their family member comes to them and says “Hey, you know, you're a real estate agent right?” “Yeah. Yeah I am.” And they're really not. And they…they don't fully understand what's going on. And when they take a deal that's when things go sideways. So I think the clarification is what kind of agent do you want to be? If you're…if you're coming into the industry are you going to be a sometime agent? Or are you gonna be a part-time agent? Because if you're…if you're just dipping your toe in the water and this is new for you, you have to be a part-time agent. If you're anything less than that you're never gonna learn enough to be successful. You know what? You know what? We can just steal from the Game of Thrones on that. Because, you know what we say, to us sometimes agent…not today. [Christian]: Not today.  [Nathan]: Not today. [Christian]: What I was gonna say so…so that's as we jumped into this, you guys are like “Hey let' talk about this thing.” “I don't know what you're talking about.” So…so we talked about licensee versus an agent that's [crosstalk]. That's what you mean? [Nathan]: Yes. [Christian]: I got you. I think… [Nathan]: I think I've told the story once. I insulted a woman. She's…we were having a conversation. [Christian]: You insulted someone? No way. [Nathan]: Yes. And she said something like “Oh you're real estate agent?” And I said “Yeah.” And she said “Me too.” And I was like “Great. How many houses did you sell last year?” And she's like “Four.” And I was like “You're not an agent.” She got all upset. I was like…what…like…I don't know. [Christian]: You have a way with words Nathan.  [Nathan]: Like I mean it is what it is. I mean I…yeah that's right. But there needs to be so many changes in our industry. And, you know, again we can talk about the barrier and entry. Yeah. Yeah. I do want to talk about two things on this episode, I guess. If we want to just get going and keep going.  [Chris]: Well let's keep going. [Christian]: But before we get away can I say something? [Nathan]: Go. Get away.  [Christian]: Get away. So to your point Chris about the licensee versus an agent and the three types of agents, and it's interesting. It seems like there's so many new agents that get into it just to be a licensee. It's basically like “Hey I can make, you know, a lot of money just, you know, accidentally selling a house now and then, to…to a friends.” So they're not invested in learning or building a career. They're kind of testing the waters. And memorably they fail and realize, you know, usually it's too late. “Hey this actually cost me a lot of money and I'm not really willing to put in the time. And real estate doesn't work”. You know. [Chris]: It's…it's like people come in here and, you know, you can go and get a real estate license and you can go and sell your own home and you can buy your next home and you can earn a commission. Great. Yeah it offsets your down payment.  [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: But you factor in that you do that once every ten years and it's…it's really not worth your time.  [Christian]: Right. Well I like your distinction between basically, you know, the part-time, who is still again with the time they have, they're investing and learning. Versus the “I'm just sitting here with my license doing other stuff until something comes my way. And then I flattened my way through it.” And because I think it's a big difference. I think a lot of people in the industry inflate the two.  Like I was having a conversation the other day with, you know, some agents from another indie brokerage here in town. And I love that brokerage but they're very…very high standards on who they'll accept. Like if three times a week there or you're gone. You know, you have certain production what are you gone. [Chris]: Good. [Christian]: I think that's great but that means… [Chris]: I wish more brokers did that. [Christian]: But that means that they don't do part-time agents. And, you know, this particular agent I was talking to, was basically cuckooing part-time agents. I was like listen “The people that can do it full-time like you you're basically taking it elitist stance, because people have kids or they have other jobs or, you know, it's just not the priority in life to spend 80 hours a week trying to make real estate work.” And I think there's room for that because just because you're part time doesn't necessarily mean you're inept. Or, you know, don't know how to do real estate. It just made you're focusing on other things. You know. [Chris]: Wait really? Because I thought whatever my preconceived notions were, we're correct. [Christian]: But I'm saying I think there's a difference. Because part time agents can invest in their training and knowledge and experience just as much as a full time. But that's a lot different than someone who just is seating on the sidelines waiting for real estate to come to them. [Chris]: As long as they're putting in the hours. And…and it's actually interesting that you bring that up. Because there was a study done by a university talking about entrepreneurship and going and creating your own self-employed income. And the success rates. And somebody who does it part-time at first, believe it or not has a thirty percent greater chance of success rate, long term. Than somebody who just dives in off the deep end full-time. So you can have somebody who's coming in part-time 20 hours a week and as long as they're working those 20 hours there's a greater chance of success that that person is going to be a long-term successful real estate agent. Then somebody who comes in off the bat, full time and has one way to go. [Christian]: What…it's interesting. Is that because they're runways longer because they have a supplemental income. Or something as opposed to… [Chris]: Yeah. The caveat with this is that those people are actually putting in the work. Right. They're working 20, 30 hours a week.  [Christian]: Sure. Right. They're not sitting around at their home office watching Netflix and occasionally making a call or something. [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: Well I mean aren't there plenty of full-time agents who work a lot of part-time hours? [Christian]: That's true. That's a good distinction. They usually don't make it either. [laughter] [Nathan]: I mean I know plenty of full-time agent, who I mean it's like “[censored] if you're full-time than you suck.” [laughter] I mean it's because you look at their sales history. Like great you sold six houses last year. But you're full-time. And then there's the part-time agent who sells twenty five a year. Right. So… [Christian]: Again that comes down to your hustle and your focus. Because I've seen full-time agent that, you know, that are there full-time, but they're mentally…they're all over the place. [Nathan]: Yeah right. So I, you know, I don't like to get into this, you know, “O you're full-time, part-time.” Again sales cure is all, where I come from. And if you have a history you have a history. That's what I…that's what I like to look at is, you know, it's what matters. If somebody says “Well I'm a full-time agent.” Well great you'd be a full-time agent with [censored] sales. Right. I mean that's easy. And so I'd rather say Hey you're an agent with a great history.” That…to me is important. That's where we can delineate the that whole thing.  Is…let's not get into full-time, part-time. Yeah, the sometime, I don't want to get around. But let's just get into “Hey what did you…” I tell them “What did you sell?” Ask them what did they sell last year. What they do. Which may be and, you know, part of this I wanted to ask in this kind of segues into the other side of this, is does area specialization in a normal market, like where I'm at, in Columbus, does that matter anymore due to the amount of data that is available? My argument would be “No it doesn't matter.” [Chris]: I would argue you, against that.  [Nathan]: I figured you would. Yeah Christian too. [Chris]: Yeah.  [Nathan]: But that's just me. So… [Chris]: And I think it comes down to the level of service that somebody wants to bring. If…if you have like three agents going up against one neighborhood, and one agent knows everything about the neighborhood, all the history. Everything that has taken place there. Everything that's going in. All the development that…that's happening. Then that agent can sell not only the house but also the story.  And if you could sell the story, you know, that…that's the best way to market right now. Whereas if you have two other agents that don't know that info, then they're just…they're either competing on price or they're competing on marketing ability. [Nathan]: All right go back in there. There's an agent you left out of this. What about the agent that has the capability to use their commission as leverage on a deal? That's not in the area. [Christian]: I mean I think it… [Chris]: Where would he use that laverage? [Nathan]: Towards closing costs. Say…saying…because in our market you can do that. Right. Say…say I specialize in Dublin. Right. Ohio. But I want to go to…I got a client who want…your potential client who's interested in buying in New Albany, that yeah I've done deals over there. But I'm competing against a New Albany realtor. And…and I can offer…say Christian's my buyer. I can incentivize him to use me because I can say “Hey you're gonna buy $500,000 home. You know what I'll do? I'll take three thousand dollars on my commission and credit that to you towards closing cost and pre-paids and closing cost.” Now in a competitive market I'm gonna choose the agent that's got leeway to give me something. Or that could bridge appraisal, help with closing cost or something like that. Over somebody who says “Oh I specialize in an area.” That's just me and my train of thought. [Christian]: I mean the specializing in an area, I…I'd say the value really depends on which side you're on. Like…like when I'm on the listing side I think it like I specialize in West Seattle. But I do other areas of Seattle in the suburbs. Like I remember specifically like I helped a military friend of mine sell this place and well the suburbs here.  Now I didn't…I've never sold a house in that area. And so one of the questions I had to ask is like “Hey tell me about your neighborhood.” Like “There's a main…there's a main road going through here. Our house is on this side of it. A lot different than this side.” Because I can look at the numbers all day long but as the stats don't tell me, you know, why people move to this area. Or what the demographics are. Or who the ideal buyer is gonna be.  You know, so you've got to do a lot more digging and you actually know the area for that. And on the buyer side I don't think that's as important. I mean it can be. You can leverage it. but, you know, you're not really…I think it's more important on the seller side. Because you're gonna use that information, that knowledge of the neighborhood to target that ideal buyer.  [Chris]: And I think… [Christian]: What to focus on. [Chris]: Yeah and Nate to your point, I think you're you're kind of comparing apples to oranges right now. Because you're…you're talking about two completely different value propositions. That the agents can base on. And, you know, all of them work. Right. There's a million different value propositions on how you can build your business. Whether you specialize in historic or new construction or this one area or whatever it might be. Or you…you leverage some of your commission income to incentivize, you know, the client base.  You know, you can pay. It's one way or another. If you want to take some of your commission and do that on the back end through a rebate, you know, who am I to judge? All of them work. They're all different business models. And I don't call one discount versus one traditional. They're just different business models. It just depends on what's right for the individual agent. And what's right for the individual agent has to line up with the broker that they're with. Because not all brokers will allow their agents to do a commission rebate. Or to donate some towards closing costs. Whatever that might be. But it has to…like they all work. Like one agent may have a value proposition. And their proposition may be “I know everything about this area. Use me because I'm gonna make sure you're fully informed.” And then another agent may say “Well we're not as familiar with the area but we'll make sure that you have this financial instead of…” And then it's just up to the buyer. Right. The buyer may want money or they we may want their choice to be 100%. So it can go either way. [Christian]: And I'd say I mean you can't you can kind of think about in terms of like your commission is one of the terms of the contract. And so it's something that you could leverage just like you can any other terms, you know. That's something that you directly have control over versus, you know, the buyer. But, you know, options. [Nathan]: Right. Just curious. I mean you see it often. I mean…and I've done it. but, you know, we'll waive appraisal. And, you know, I will use my commission as a bridge in case that commits…that appraisal comes in short. And I've had plenty of times. It never has. We've been fine. I've had times where it comes in short and hey that's fine too. Again it's…it's as much for the seller when I represent a buyer to offer, you know, to say “Hey I'm willing to use my commission as a bridge in case it doesn't.” Because then they know they'll, you know, they'll get that money. So… [Chris]: I think that that's something to be careful about. So you're… you're very well versed in that Nate. But for your average agent, like if they're going into putting their livelihood on the line, like they got…they're gambling on themselves. [Nathan]: Yeah they are. [Chris]: And…and that's what you're doing. And you're good. And I would probably gamble on myself if I had to take the bet. [Nathan]: I like it. [Chris]: But I think that there's a lot of agents that for general advice…Don't do that well.  [Nathan]: Yes. You also…you got to remember I am fair. I keep 100% of my commission. Truly 100%. Right. So, you know, I don't have a split. So you got to think on a normal agents, say they're on a 60/40 split, you know, they're already taking a hit. Right. So they're potentially gonna take a bigger hit? Like, you know, they do have to be cautious. I…I have a little…I have a lot more leeway. Let's be honest. But… [Christian]: Sure. Not all the firms are going to support that. You know, so… [Nathan]: No they're not.  [Chris]: And you know as general…for our audience, as general advice I'm gonna say don't do that. Mainly because I don't know, you know, if I'm talking about the average agent, right. [Nathan]: Right. [Chris]: They're not gonna be at that level to where, you know, I would feel comfortable just saying “Hey go out and put your commission on the line.” Because guess what? They do that. They say “I'll bridge the gap on an appraisal.” And the appraisal was four percent off instead of three. [Christian]: Well yeah… [Chris]: Now what's gonna happen? [Christian]: I mean you should always have…always have a cap, you know, as far as how far you'll go. You know, I mean I think in general, the principle I like. Because you're basically partnering with your clients, with skin the game. As opposed to you like “Hey, you know, here's all the terms. If it doesn't work out, well I'm fine. But you're gonna get [censored].”  [Nathan]: Well and my part in it is where I bridge part of the gap. My client will bridge part of the gap. But my commission will supersede their bridge. So but again what we're doing and like you said is, you know, kind of like in Top Gun. Right. You know, when you went fully inverted over the other plane and they're like this, you know. So that's the maneuver I pull. And I just haven't taken the picture yet. So…[laughter] [Chris]: International relations. [Nathan]: That's right. So anyway those are my two concerns or thoughts…would, over the last week. [Christian]: It's a creative way to do what you have to do, in a competitive market. [Nathan]: Yes.  [Chris]: Just make sure you run it by your broker. [Christian]: Always. [Chris]: And have your lawyers look at your language in your contract.  [Nathan]: Yeah you actually have to disclose that too, here. So… [Chris]: Yeah you do in Georgia also if you're doing that with the commission. The buyer has to pay tax on that too. [Nathan]: Really? [Chris]: Yeah. Otherwise you have to claim it. [Nathan]: Yeah that's true. [Chris]: Yeah. All right. Well I mean I think that was pretty good. So just recapping. If you're…if you're brand new in the industry, you know, you you're one of three people, you're a full-timer, a part-timer or some timer. Don't be a some timer. Because if you're a some timer, you're never gonna learn everything you need to know in order to be successful at this job.  And then, you know, figure out how you want to build your business. Right. You can…you could do a bit model like Nathan and use your commissioners leverage as long as you do it right. Or you can be the expert in your field. Know everything about everyone.  And everything that's going on in your neighborhood. And make sure that you're the source of information. Either way the business models work. Pick what's right for you. This has been another episode of re:Think Real Estate. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next Monday. [Nathan]: Peace. [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode Video marketing is a common discussion among real estate agents right now. Today we discuss some of the things to avoid during when video marketing listings in real estate. reThink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 23:49 RTRE 62 – Video Marketing in Real Estate [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I'm Chris here with Christian and Nate. And today we're talking about…Nate what are we talking about?  [Nathan]: What are we talking about? Listing videos and… [Chris]: Listing videos. We're talking about listing videos today.  [Nathan]: We're gonna be talking about listing videos. What's great about this episode, I think is, I'm not gonna be talking a lot, because I don't do listing videos. So that's…that's great. But Mr. Harris here is…is really…God he…what's the proper…he got a wild hair posses on this one. It was brought up I guess. [laughter] [Christian]: Oh boy.  [Nathan]: He has got has got some strong opinions people. About these listing videos and so I mean… I guess I have opinions. It's you don't need to do them. But I guess if you're gonna do them we're gonna let Christian talk about what you should do and shouldn't do. As we always talk about I guess on our podcast. I'm actually intrigued to hear what he's got to say. Because maybe I'll learn something since it's not something I ever venture into. So Christian you want to talk about listing videos and…and how they're done. Right. or how they're done wrong? Or maybe it's about content but you got some strong opinions. But what got this wild hair up, you know, to be so “eick” about it? [laughter] [Christian]: I don't know how much of a wild hair. But, I mean, Nate so what do you do to market your listings? Because that's when I say listing videos, I'm using it as a general term the agents use to market their listings. [Christian]: Well I tell all my clients up front too that if somebody comes in here and tells you they're gonna market their home, well I'm gonna tell them “Dude that's a [censored] word generally.” In our market, again we talked about this in the last two episodes, when I say our market here. You know what you have to do for marketing in Columbus? Put in MLS. It hits Trulia, Zillow, Redfin, boom boom boom boom boom. Right. great pictures I think are a giant, enormous and key. I don't see the need for video and unless it's depending on the caliber of the home. Right. I could…could do it. And then I'll segue. I think a lot of it depends on what you're also charging the client. Right. But…marketing…you put it in…put it in MLS.. Right. now that's about all you need to do. I mean… [Christian]: OK so let me let me ask you so what…so if you believe that all agents marketing is automatic, what value are you bringing your clients? What do you actually do for your clients that other agents don't do? [Nathan]: Boom. I'm better at negotiating then I think about 90% of the people out there. I guide them through the process of preparation getting their home prepared to put it on the market. What may need to be done or not need to be done to that home. Right.  [Christian]: So how's that presented if you're not doing a marketing? And you're doing photos. Right. But everybody does photos. [Nathan]: But yeah everybody does photos. But again everybody does photos, b ut there's a difference in the quality of photos. Right. you got plenty of agents to walk in with their own camera or their iPhone and take photos, yeah. Right.  [Chris]: Stay away from the Galaxy you all. Just… [Nathan]: Yeah right. Or you have an agency and a professional photographer to photograph a home. Right.  [Chris]: Which standard should be standard.  [Nathan]: Should be but I would… [Christian]: They can't…[crosstalk] [Nathan]: 50% of agents in the Columbus market do not use professional photography.  [Chris]: And Christian yes a photographer should be standard even on a vacant house. [Christian]: Oh no it should be. That was a little throwback to our last episode about the value of staging, you know. Yep professional photos help a house.  [Chris]: Photographer yes. Stager maybe not. [Christian]: Right. [Nathan]: And again I think it depends. Now what I do, I offer three options when I go on a listing presentation. You have a four percent of five percent and a six percent. Right. And they all vary with what you get for that amount of commission. Some people don't want to spend six percent. Most people go towards a five. But… [Christian]: So you give them options? [Nathan]: I give them options yes. And a lot of people like… [Chris]: It's a menu. [Nathan]: Yeah it's a menu. Right. It's no more. But I personally don't believe video sells a house. Why? Didn't [censored] sell a house 10 years ago. Why? Because they weren't doing it. And things sold just fine. So… [Christian]: Well I mean that's…I mean it's a, you know, you know, you don't want to get into that topic because there wasn't an internet ten years ago. And things have changed so… [Nathan]: Right. So… [Christian]: You know what that last brokerage said? “This is that we've done for 40 years, I'm not going to change it now.” [Nathan]: Famous last words. [Christian]: I don't think that's what you're saying. I hope not.  [Nathan]: No. But like so you say, well “What do you provide?” Well I also offer…I hate the word [censored] “discounted” but I will list your home and provide what generally is the same as any other agent, I just do it as a better rate. So but go back to your videos. [Christian]: OK OK. I wasn't…that was intended as a joke. As just kind of… [Nathan]: No it's OK.  [Christian]: I wanted to hear what you thought was the value you provide.  [Nathan]: Here is the other thing I provide. I provide them [censored] honesty because most real estate agents are [censored] liars. They won't tell the truth. They'll say anything to get the [censored] listing. I don't know if I talked about it. Let me rant on this one. I just went, did a listing presentation, like three weeks ago. I don't think I've talked about this. Right.Bbut the client walked me upstairs and I walked in the room and I went “Oh my God that [censored] wallpaper has got to go.” [Christian]: Yep you mentioned that in the... [Nathan]: Right. [Chris]: Yeah that's a good one.  [Nathan]: Right. So yes she laughed. Right. And I said what's so funny Jenny? She says “All the other agents came in here, just told me the room look beautiful. You're the first one to tell me it's ugly and I know it's ugly.” Most people just don't tell the truth. [Chris]: Was that the dentist? [Nathan]: Yes. [Chris]: Yeah I remember that one.  [Nathan]: What? What…what do you get? Right. You get pure honesty. You don't like it? Than don't [censored] hire me. Enough about that. [laughter] Let's go back to…we were talking about videos. How do we get back to videos? This all started with videos. [Chris]: Back to listing videos. [Christian]: Right.  [Chris]: Bring it in.  [Christian]: We've believed at this point a little bit. Nat's value is not in the marketing. And I'd say most agents' value is in the market, because honestly it is pretty automatic, it's pretty syndicated these days. And it's something, you know, I tell my…my clients too. It's like “Listen this is what an agent is gonna tell you. This is [censored]. This is, you know, this is…this is how it works.” I think my axe to grind when it comes to listing videos is that what most agents call listening videos are glorified slideshows. Stop calling it virtual tour or a listing video. [Chris]: Yeah we're…we're gonna give you a virtual tour. [Christian]: A moving-picture is not a video with some you know, generic music over. That's, you know, pet peeve of mine. I don't know why people still pay for that, you know, because I'll look on the MLS we have that virtual tour link. Right. Half the time I click on it some, you know, [censored] tour factory slideshow, with some crappy music go over. I'm like “What the [censored] is this?  [Chris]: Like yeah for us its property panorama but it's the same thing. Takes all your listing videos, automatically adds the background music and there you go. I've turned mine off in the MLS. [Christian]: Yeah so that bugs me. So to me I think when it comes to marketing there's two main things you can…you can do. And maybe three. I mean you could do a dedicated, you know, listing website. Which I think could be helpful, especially if you're seller is gonna share it, you know, as opposed to sharing like the MLS link or something, which looks, at least for us, looks archaic and cheesy. So having a dedicated landing page can be a helpful tool. Something like Kingston Lane. Really cheap. They do a good job. Or doing like a Matter Ports [phonetics] for 3d tour. I still think that is really powerful as a way for people to do a walk-through without actually being there. So they get a good feel for the house which you… [Chris]: Matter Ports is good. [Christian]: Yeah so we use that on all our listings. If you're gonna do video, I think you can either detract or enhance the house, to pay on how well it's done. So I say for most agents is probably not what you want to do. One, it tends to be expensive if you do it right, because you're gonna hire it out. If you do it yourself…you…you better be pretty damn good, you know. The reason I go with Matter Ports instead of videos, is because it allows the end user to control the experience. They get…it goes as fast as they want. They get to look at what they want. They're not stuck with “Oh it's a 30 second video and I didn't get to see what I wanted in the house.” Or “It's a 5 minute or 10 minute video and oh my God why is there five minutes of drone footage outside, before you get inside the house. I'm done.” They click off. So the problem with video is that nowadays people want it quick. They want to see what they want to see. And so it can really shoot you in the foot if you're not…if it's not done well and it's not done timely, it doesn't have a specific point. But I do still think there's definitely room for it. And…and there's some great people out there doing some…some really cool stuff.  Like I don't know if you guys saw the listing video for Ryan Lewis's house out here in Seattle. It's, you know, thirty million dollars or some crazy mansion. And they basically hired a influencer to do a twenty minutes basically like a roast of his house, under the guise of he's breaking and entering into Ryan Lewis's house. It is as they're making fun of it the whole…whole time through. And it's hilarious. It doesn't really good job to showcase the house. In like a normal listing video I won't last three seconds, and this thing, you know, watched all twenty minutes of it. Because it was funny. It was memorable. It's an amazing house, you know, then, you know, some more grassroots people, they're doing some amazing stuff with. Like Tim Macy, you know, our common Cameron, which we've had both them. [Chris]: Yeah they've both been on the podcast. [Christian]: Yeah but, you know, the RETV Facebook group is great for kind of forward-thinking, video focused content makers. [Chris]: Erica Wolf just did a new tour of a home.  [Christian]: Right. Yeah…yeah that was pretty…pretty funny.  [Chris]: See those are the things that the MLS won't allow as like listing videos though. Because with an MLS, at least in Georgia, for our listing tours it has to only be the property. So you can use Matterport or could do a video walkthrough, you can't do anything creative on the MLS board. So that's…that's outside of our listing video territory. That's social media marketing. That's promotion… [Christian]: This is if you want to stand out and actually provide something, not just as your own brand, but like if…if your clients want to be aligned with that outside-the-box viral video stuff, you know, I mean…I know like Phil Greeley, locally, he's a Sotheby's and he's just double down on video. And he's gotten some really high-end listings because he's done some…yeah from like doing some amazing videos. That get some great traction, you know. Like that he wouldn't have got that if he just did photos. [Chris]: [inaudible] with Gary Vaynerchuk [phonetics]. [Christian]: Yeah I'm just saying… [Chris]: And he was one of our first guests.  [Christian]: Yes. But I'm just saying it's not like it's worthless. [Chris]: No. [Christian]: But if you're gonna do it, do it right. [Nathan]: Some people do like…what's his name, The wolf of Whistler. [Chris]: Wolf of Whistler?! [Nathan]: Oh tell me you've seen it. [Chris]: Oh I know what you're talking about. Yeah.  [Nathan]: Well I mean his is good. I mean, you know, it's very much like a dollar shape for housing. But it was…I mean it's catchy, it's good, it gets people's attention. [Chris]: So let's talk about quality of listing videos. Because Christiane you kind of got into it and I did a lot of Matter Port. I think Matterport is good spending the money when it's not a seller's market. When…when you don't have to worry about, you know, the property being on the market more than 24 hours. [Christian]: I just do it in all my listings. But I own the camera. [Chris]: So out of Christian… [Christian]: I am just saying it's, you know, it's part of what we offer.  [Chris]: OK. I'm glad, you know, like staging is part of all your listings. I'm sure there's exceptions. [Christian]: If it makes sense. If it makes sense. [Chris]: Yeah yeah it's part of all my listings. So Matterport I've done. And…and I found that the Matterport increased the quality of the showings. Because by the time the people are coming out there, they've seen the property, over and over again. They've already walked the property over and over again. It's decrease the number of showings before contract. And then during the contract period its decrease the number of walk throughs. Why? Because we've already got a diagram that has every measurement of the home that's listed and it's online.  So we've got the entire floor plan of every floor of the house, that Matterport comes with. In addition to that they can continue to walk and do whatever they want. They can be screen shots and save the images. Whatever they need to do at night, in bed, kids are asleep. Whatever it is. Husband and wife. Whoever is buying the house can look at the property together or by themselves and just figure out where their furniture is gonna go, without coming back out to the house while it's under contract. So it's dramatically decreased the number of showings, but it's also decreased the number of times the buyer has to come to the house. In substantially sized homes.  Video. 100% has to be quality. I have fired video or content companies, for photo, Matterport, video. They do it all. I fired them because when I saw the video that they turned out, I can see the footprints in the video going up and down as the photographer's walking through the freaking house. And it just drove me nuts because it's like giving me motion sickness. And I know that my eye is better for that than like most of the public. And hardly anybody's gonna notice. But I notice. That's my brand. So that [censored], not acceptable. It's hard to find a good photographer. Somebody that can do video. Because they've got to have  the equipment. They've got to have the stabilizer. They've got to make it so like they're walking through. They're not like… [Christian]: If you're paying for it they better at least have a gimbal. So you…it doesn't look like they're walking, you know, bouncing walking through the house. I mean it's a basic. You could buy one of those for 80 bucks yourself, you know.  [Chris]: Well if you're using it for an iPhone. But for a camera it's not 80 bucks.  [Christian]: Yeah I mean they're more expensive. But my point is, you know, if you're like that's what you do, you better had the equipment for it. [Chris]: Yeah absolutely. So I've got a great photographer in Georgia. His name is Keith Hirsch, Georgia home view. Best photographer in the state in my book. I've had a lot of people come across my desk and Keith is the only one that I've looked at and I've said “You know what? I can't do this. That's like…that's way above like my…my level.” And I've been in a darkroom since I was 14. So I've been around a camera… [Christian]: They locked you the closet? Under the stairs?  [Chris]: Like developing, you know, each other. [Christian]: Oh OK I thought you were talking about child abuse. OK. I'm sorry. [laughter] [Chris]: A real darkroom. Not Harry Potter's bedroom. [Christian]: Got you. OK. [Chris]: So when I saw that, I got in. and he doesn't have a gimble. He uses a shoulder rig or I think he's got like one of those rigs for his camera, where you hold it with two hands. He's just so good that it looks fluid. Like you can't even tell. I asked him. I thought he shot the inside video with a drone, and he didn't. It was just his camera and he was walking through the property. Look the quality of your media reflects the quality of your work. That's what you're putting out there. If you're putting out a free MLS provided, you know, flipbook, of the properties that you have, the pictures that you've already listed and just putting it to music, nobody's gonna watch that. That's a waste of time. And for you to market yourself and saying “This is a video. Like we're gonna give we're gonna give a video tour of the property too. We're gonna turn all you have pictures into videos.” Welcome to 1997 like tech class in high school. Like that's…that's….we're way beyond that. [Christian]: Sure. Well and that's why I like…I mean when I first got into real estate, you know, I pretty quickly started pushing back against kind of the idea, you know, a lot of agents were being told “Hey you just do something. Just get something out there. Get content out there.” Now I'm like “Well no you better think about it. Better get it right.” Because if you put bad content out there, that's gonna hurt you worse than you if you had nothing out there, in some situations. Because… [Chris]: It's like that note, it's like that saying “There's no such thing as bad press.” [Christian]: That not true. Well because I mean if…if I…if I did…Let's say I did listing photos with my iPhone and you look like [censored] that's not better than having one good picture up there. You know, or, you know, you know, and so far we've talked about like listing videos as far as like if you're gonna do them do them, do them right, do them professionally.  But if there's…I think there's also room for, you know, more on the social media side. For the Facebook lives, Instagram lives, you know, the walkthroughs, the impromptu type stuff. You know, that's not gonna be professionally done edited, that's in on the fly type of thing. There's definitely room for that. But, you know, again have a purpose to it. Don't just be, you know, talking to talk or going live to, you know, to do it. And yeah I don't know.  What are you guys thoughts? Do you go live [Chris]: Nate? [Nathan]: No. Again… [Chris]: [laughter] “No. Not me. I don't do it.” [Nathan]:  I think a lot of these… [Christian]: I think in social media you can. [Nathan]: I think a lot of what we do right now is all dependent upon your market. And were, you know, buy or seller market. What, you know, what you're charging commission. I mean we talk about a lot of things. But a lot depends on what you charge. What condition is your market in. What…what's the house like. How much…you know, let's be honest, you know,  you're not gonna stage one hundred thousand dollar house with three thousand dollars furniture. You know, staging. Right. So it's all relative.  It's each…each situation is different. I am…like I said. I have not staged a house. I've not done video on a home. I do have one that I would consider doing video of. But I think a lot of it is overkill. It's just my opinion. Whatever you do in whoever you use just make sure they're reputable. Like here if I was to have video done, I'd called Joey…Joey T media. He does an awesome job and that's who I would hire. Right out the gate. So just make sure, you know, whatever you do it's…it's professional. That's…that's kind of where I'm at with it. [Chris]: You talked about Facebook live? And go and live on Facebook right now. Just as we're gonna wrap up this episode. [Nathan]: Oh God Almighty. [Chris]: Oh God Almighty. Heaven forbid I go on Facebook live Nate. Like really. So I mean Christian I think you've got some great points when it comes to listing media and making sure that the video is quality. Not using the stupid slideshows of images and how we do the…like the property panorama. What is it? What's the service that you have where you are? [Christian]: I mean whether it's a tool live or a factory. I mean if you wanna do a slideshow, do a slideshow. But don't call it a listing video. You know. [Chris]: Yeah.  [Christian]: Don't call it a virtual tour. [Chris]: Yeah it's a slideshow. It's not a listing video. It doesn't help market the property. Nobody's gonna look at it. Make sure that the quality's there. Or, you know, be like Nate and don't do any of it. Just be honest and, you know, what's your humor show. And there we go. [laughter] Christian is playing us back. [Christian]:  I'm watching you live well recording this.  [Chris]: Hey Christian Harris is watching. Bring them online. I'm not bringing you on camera Christian because… [Christian]: No that would be bizarre. We have like us some time vortex. [Chris]: Yeah be like…we will be looping back and forth for like minutes. So it's…it's important that we make sure that the quality of our marketing material is on par with the brand that we want to portray as our business. So, you know, any last words guys before we wrap this up? [Nathan]: No I'm good. [Christian]: Yeah….yeah I mean it's I'd say for any service you provide, any marketing, I mean it really comes down to what are you doing for the client. You know, like do you have… is this intentional or you just kind of like throwing stuff out there? You know, so whether you choose to do video or not, whether you choose to state or not. What…you know, like however you do stuff. Like make it consistent. If, you know, and…and set the expectations up front.  You know, if people are paying you to like be honest and, you know, you…you think all marketing is the same than hey or just, you know, say that out of the gate. You know, but if you think you really do something that kicks [censored] in marketing and that's why they're hiring you, hey make sure to emphasize that. [Chris]: Yeah when…what…definitely. And I will reiterate that. When it comes to your marketing, it is your name, it is your brand, it is you building your business. And if you want to be good at it you need to focus on all of the aspects of your business. You need to make sure that that media that you're putting out there to the public is a reflection of who you want to be. Period. So alright everybody thank you so much for tuning in. this has been another episode of re:Think Real Estate. We're so happy to have you on board. If you haven't already, please go to re:Think Real Estate's website which is rtre.podcast.com. Subscribe to the newsletter. You'll get a notice every time a new episode drops. And please go on…find us on iTunes at re:Think Real Estate. Leave us a five star review. Tell us what you think about the website or about the podcast. You don't even have it…you don't even have to listen to us. For anybody that's watching on Facebook live right now, just go and leave us a review. We'll be happy. [Christian]: I think. I'm the only one live now.  [Chris]: Yeah one person that's watching live right now. More people will see it later. They're always watching the recaps. So thank you so much. We will see you next week.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode We've all been there. Life hits you like a freight train and knocks you off course. Today we discuss how to get the train back on its track. Tune in to hear about how we deal with death, struggle, and negative outside voices. reThink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 28:18 RTRE 60 – Breaking Out of a Rut in Your Real Estate Business [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I'm Chris here with Christian and Nate is back. No longer sick. Welcome back Nate.  [Nathan]: Thanks. Thank you. [Chris]: Yes. All of energy today. [laughter]  [Christian]: He is possessed to be here. [Chris]: Oh. Let's see those jazz hands Nate. [Nathan]: Hold on. [laughter]. [Christian]: What are you typing? [Chris]: Not even…Not even ready to start. There we go.  [Christian]: Yeah don't worry about this.  [Chris]: So we were just talking before getting started here about, you know, what do you do when you're in a rut. Like you're just out of it, you know, listening to Nate's voice. He's in a rut right now. Even if it's just for the next hour. So like Christian what do you do when you're in a rut? Like how do you pull yourself out of it? [Christian]: I mean I'll tell you one thing that's key to not do and that's to quit, and to listen to the demons, you know, that are speaking…speaking lives in your head about how your failure and your, you know, nothing's ever gonna change and it's gonna be like this forever. I'm sure I'm just the only one that hears those negative thoughts but… [Chris]: It's gonna be like this forever. You're a failure. [Christian]: Don't listen to them. I know. See now I'm hearing the voices for real. This is so real. [Chris]: [laughter] In your headphones.  [Christian]: Yeah in my headphones. So that's the first thing you don't do. [Chris]: Yeah I gotta agree. [Christian]: For me personally, you know, I just kind of keep my head down and keep going. But I mean I lot of it depends on why I am in a rut. Is it like a family rut where relationships aren't going great? Is it work? Is it financial? You know. Because I think, you know, the solution to those are all gonna be a little different. But the key to getting out of those is leaning…leaning on people. You know, like being honest. Having people that can come around to you and speak truth into that. Whether it's co-workers or family members or, you know, besties, you know. Don't isolate yourself because that's…that's doesn't go well for most people. [Chris]: Gotta have your besties. Nate. [Nathan]: Yep. [Chris]: What do you think? [Nathan]: What's the question again? [Chris]: How do you get out of a rut. [Nathan]: Oh how do you get out of a rut. [Christian]: It's your topic buddy. [Chris]: Yeah this is your choice Mr. “I'm in a rut.”  [Nathan]: How do you…You know, I don't know. You got to find, you know, how you used to work triggers. You got to find….one you got to be able to identify you're in a rut. Right. I mean, you know, yeah I just kind of went through one. Yeah I was sick for a week. Had some unfortunate family things happen. And, you know, it was just [censored] death of you. I mean it's what it was but you know it side tracks you. Right. You know, as I call it the…the train gets off the rail. So you one you got to recognize that the…the freaking train you're on is off the rails. And then you got to figure out what's the trigger to get it back on. You know, for me it's being very scheduled and stuff. And just it's…I don't know you have to just recommit.  You know, what's the…I used to have a mentor who used to say “You kind of have to recenter the salt on the plate.” And I think that's what you got to do. You got to be able to identify it. You got to figure out, you know, why you're in it. OK get out of it, you know, and then , you know, there's certain things. I don't know you can read motivational stuff. I mean Gary Vee I, you know, it's not for all people but he's for me. And I can get on a pity party and he gets me out of the pity party. So [Christian]: Yeah nice kick to the junk to get you back on track. [Nathan]: Yeah and I think in our industry, I think we all get kind of jaded at times. You get….you get I don't know. You get frustrated and then you get sidetracked.  [Christian]: And it's just you. [Nathan]: Yeah all right. [Chris]: No it's definitely not just you.  [Nathan]: Yeah I know it's everybody. I was talking with a colleague the other day and, you know, he said “Man I just…” he said “I didn't do [censored] for six months.” And now you know, he knew it. He identified it. But, you know, he's like the worst part is now I gotta play catch-up. I, you know, we all, you know, we get these peaks and valleys. And I don't…I don't like to get in those peaks and valleys. I like to have, you know, a nice steady stream of income. Right. [Chris]: Well six months is a little bit too long. That…that's not all right. Six months is an active decision to say “You know what, I'm just not gonna work.” [Nathan]: Yeah. [Christian]: I think it's called clinical depression. [Nathan]: Yeah well, you know, he was working on his home doing some other things. Fine. But… [Christian]: OK so he's just distracted. [Nathan]: He's just distracted and I think we all can get distracted. And then I think we just get frustrated. You know, we can get in our own way. So and, you know, it's, you know, you hear a realtor say “Oh I'm…” You know, we talked about this before. You know, “I'm so busy” And you say “What do you have going on?” And they're like “Oh I got one house in contract.” But you're so busy like…I don't know. It's…when I'm not busy, I'm not busy. You know, I don't even like the question what people say “Oh it's spring time right now. You're, you know, you must be busy as all get out. I'm steady. I'm not busy as I'll get out. But when you talk to me in November, December, January and February, guess what? You get the same response. Versus a lot of people say “Well I ain't got nothing going on.” So staying out of a rut I think is important. I think it's important that you identify how long you're in one. And it only took two weeks to get in one. Just because of, you know, being sick. And we're all self-employed. Right. o… [Chris]: Yeah I think I think one of the things is it doesn't take too long to get into a rut. Like one thing can happen and throw you completely off the rails. And then it…you have to go through…well depending upon what it is, you've got to go through these stages of healing to kind of get back into your groove. So if it's…if, you know, if it's family that's throwing, you know, things at you that are like “Oh, you know, what you're wasting your time. You're not in a good environment. The industry is gonna end soon. Your real estate agents are gonna be obsolete. Everything's gonna be AI in tech.” I just got that from my [censored] father the other day. And… [Christian]: Ouch. [Chris]: Yeah like “Really, no I…I don't think it is but, you know, that…that's great that you're encouraging me. I really appreciate that.” But you got to go through this stage of accepting what has happened. Seeing it from, you know, multiple points of view. Realizing that, you know, you're either making the right decision and then you double down on your decision, or there's some corrective action that needs to happen. And then you need to make the corrective action. [Christian]: I mean I'd say that, this is kind of cliché, but I definitely say that it's very important to…as you're trying to, you know, realize, you know, “OK what's…what set me in this rut and how do I get out?” is to try to only focus on things that you can affect. Right. As most of stuff in our life we have no control over. You can't control other agents, can't control the market. You control what you do and how focused you are. And, you know, your attitude and all that kind of stuff.  But I'd say that's definitely key to getting out of it is not…not, you know, what we call catastrophizing, if that's a word, which I don't think it is. But, you know, essentially… [Nathan]: It sounds great. [Chris]: Yeah if it's not a word it sounds like a word and it should be a word. So yeah… [Christian]: It's…it's a word that would they use in in the military's newer…what they call it, resiliency training . Essentially, you know, one of the keys to, you know, not getting in a rut or recognizing when you are going into rut is recognizing, you know, a mindset that's a downward spiral of catastrophizing everything. Where, you know, one thing happens and then you just assume the worst and then that, you know, self-fulfilling prophecy happens. And you keep spiraling downwards as opposed to, you know, “OK let's look at the big picture. Let's not think of the worst thing let's think of, you know, outcomes that are positive and, you know, be optimistic as opposed to pessimistic”, you know.  This is one of the mental tricks of, you know, how are you going to position yourself mentally to get out of the rut. As opposed to, you know, staying in that rut. [Chris]: I like that. That's really good. So Nate, cuz you ran for 24 hours last year, what was like what was going on in your head and do you think that any of those things could be used to get you out of a rut ? [Nathan]: Well I'm getting ready to run for twelve hours soon again. I think it's just it's…it's a semental staying power if you would. Because what's the easiest thing to do in any of those scenarios are with what we do for a living, what's the easiest thing to do? [censored] it. Quit. Right. [Chris]: Like quit. Don't even… [Nathan]: Just quit. Right. I mean I think what most people don't realize and, you know, I can use it running wise or even and, you know, in this rut…What we think of and perceive is something that maybe feels like forever, is really not that long of a period of time. Right. When I did that race out in Colorado or run out in Colorado, there was a gentleman that, you know, he quit after, you know, about 16 hours. And he said “I can't do it anymore.” And I said “Dude just take a break. Don't leave the course. If you leave the, you know, if you leave the course, you can't restart. But you can you could take a rest, that's fine. It's OK. If you want a rest for thirty minutes or three hours then you could start back up on whatever mile you're on.”  Right. And he said no he couldn't do it. He went back to his hotel. About twenty three hours and thirty minutes into it I seen him at the finish line, start/finish line. And, you know, him lapping through and he comes and pulls up beside me and starts running. And I was like “What are you doing back out here?” He's like “I should have listened to you.” He's like “I left. I got back to the hotel. I took 30 minutes. Laid down and I was like nah I feel great now.”  So I think what we do is it's…it's how we perceive that. Right. like “Oh you're in a rut.” And I have been in a rut for two weeks. And it's that like Christian said, you get the self-fulfilling prophecy. And then it does spiral out of control. Right. versus if we can kind of slam the [censored] brakes on things, and go “Hold up. All right. Reset.” And…and grab a hold of it by the balls a little bit, you know, then…then you've got a good opportunity. But I think we just we, you know, society as a whole and what, you know, whether it's real estate or not, we…we just get caught up in that bad moment. So you got to be more optimistic than pessimistic. [Christian]: Yeah well I think it also help if, you know, kind of speaking to people getting into the industry, if there was a more realistic portrayal of what it's like to be a new agent. Because I mean I've, you know, speaking of our first quarter was very, very rough financially. And we have like five agents that just gave up. Just “I'm done. I'm not renewing my license. This was too hard.” And it's kind of that lack of resiliency because they'd…I don't think they had a realistic expectations coming into it. They're like “You can't just sit on YouTube while you, you know, quote to do your calls.” [laughter] Like you're not gonna get…You know, so there's a lack of resiliency. There's a lack of hustle. A lack of urgency and then, you know, no matter what, you know, your brokerage does, or people come up alongside you, they don't do it. They don't listen. And then they quit. And you're like “Yeah I kind of saw the writing on the wall.”  You're like, you know, it's…from the perspective of a broker like it's really easy to become jaded. And, you know, my version of a rut looks differently, you know, because I'm looking at agents and productivity and, you know, margins. And that kind of stuff. From agent perspective, you know, it's trying to get business, you know, having people say no to you. Or if you're new to an area trying to figure out how to get the word out there. And, you know, that kind of stuff. But either way it comes down to like not giving up, being resilient when things don't go perfectly, not letting that spiral and ruin the rest of your day.  [Nathan]: I would agree. [Chris]: Definitely, you know, you've got to be able to compartmentalize a little bit to know “Hey, you know what this is not that big of a deal.” Or, “You know what, this sucks. But, you know, I gotta keep ploughing on because if I stop I'm never gonna get this done. I'm never gonna hit my goal. So I've got to keep going.”  You know, it took, you know, I was in a rut a few weeks ago. And it took me a good five to six days to work my way through it. And it wasn't until I kind of saw some things from a different angle that, you know, it was…I realized, you know what, what I was doing was correct. And, you know, this one situation was an outlier. And it really didn't affect what I was doing as much as I thought it would. [Christian]: Yeah I mean a lot of what we're talking about here is your perspective. Right. And earlier I mentioned not letting yourself be isolated. And the reason for that is that other people can bring a perspective that you don't have. You know, they're looking at that from the outside. Where you may be, you know, kind of myopically looking at your feet. And, you know, where you just stumbled while they're looking at the big picture of like “But look at all this potential and look at where you came from and look at what's ahead of you.”  You know, I think that's very important to have that community around you, of people that can speak into you. Well that's your spouse or business partner or whatever. [Chris]: And sometimes you don't even want to hear it. Sometimes you're just like “You know what, I…I'm not even gonna listen” and you have to hear from some like third party that has nothing to do with you. Because, you know, those that are closest to us sometimes we feel like they're just, you know, boosting us up. And it's not authentic. [Christian]: Right. And then your wife says “That's what I've been saying to you.” And you're like “Oh sorry.”. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: I get that [censored] all the time. My wife's like “Why wouldn't you just listen to me. That's what I was telling you.” And I am like “Oh [censored] you're right.” [Nathan]: Well that's…that's the funny flipside of being resilient. Another word for that could be stubborn. Or [laughter] hard-headed, you know. So what keeps you driving for it could also be what keeps you from listen to people. So … [Chris]: Yeah I think not so much that, but we have…we have this tendency that if something shakes us to our core. like that we're…if something happens it's that messes us up and throws us way off track, then we have this tendency to not exactly trust everything that we've done, up until that point 100%. So if there's something…if there's something that's in our core circle that's telling us something and then whatever happens throws us off our game, then we're gonna immediately have a certain distrust for this. And we're gonna go to an outside source to verify whether we're right or wrong. And once we do that, if we verify “You know what, what we've been doing is right.” then we come back to that circle and like “You know what, everything here is good.” We're happy. If something's wrong then we're gonna come back to that circle and be like “Wait what the [censored] is going on here? Like why…why are you saying this. Or, you know, why didn't…why…” You get it. Yeah it's…it's not just about listening to those that are closest to us. It's a mental thing. Like if something…mentally we've got to recenter ourselves. [Christian]: It sounds like you're saying that insecurity creeps in, depending on where we feel like things went wrong. [Chris]: Yeah definitely. And I mean it all depends on whatever happens. Right. because sometimes it's something small and it's not a big deal and it maybe, you know, maybe it's something that we're just disappointed in, and it's gonna take us, you know, a few minutes to get over. Or maybe it's something…maybe it's a personal attack or something that a relative is going in, the new agents is going. You're not making any money. You need to stop. Right. This is…you're…you're wasting your time, you're wasting your money, you're wasting our money, if it's a spouse. You know, even if you're doing the right things you may have not planned long enough. Nothing ever happens fast enough. Nothing ever happens, you know, the way that we want it. So you've got to kind of have that margin of error that you can work with. [Christian]: Sure and when you come into with…realistic expectations. Right. I mean so much of what happens in relationships that goes wrong, or getting in a rut that…that, you know, the reason we get there is because expectations are unmet, or our situation changes. You know, like if…if we think is gonna be easy and it's not, you know, we get in a rut. If, you know, we expect to make more money in the first quarter than we did, you know, it's easy getting in a rut. I mean it's just kind of…and not letting those quote failures drive you or dictate you. Because I mean what, you know, one man's failures is another person's learning, try opportunity. Yeah and that's something I've had to learn. Is like theoretically I understood. You know, as this ethereal concept I understood that failure was inevitable, and I need to be able to learn from that. But than going through that, that's experientially a lot different.  [Nathan]: So I need to get over this whole thing of how my job interferes me living my best life. [Chris]: You have the one job that you not interfere with you living your best life. [Nathan]: I don't have a job.  [Christian]: This is coming from the guy who's taken like several vacation this month to go down to…[crosstalk] [Nathan]: I know. I know. Listen you…listen I don't even have a job. I have…I do something I enjoy and love. I'm fortunate that I don't even do it as a job. I get to do what I enjoy. [Chris]: That's good. [Christian]: Yeah well let's…let's take us a little deeper and more personal. I mean Nate you kind of brought up the subject, cuz this last couple weeks have been pretty rough for you. I mean what have you found to be helpful kind of getting out of this rut for you? [Chris]: And first do you need to lay down on the therapist couch and put five cents in the jar? [Nathan]: No. Again it's…what's been helpful for me I mean again it's…I think, you know, what's the old saying? You know, you you're the average of the five people you spend the most time around. So I think it's also about the people you surround yourselves with. And that, you know, when you do get in that, they'll help you with that. You know, or they'll, you know, they'll they're kind of champion you and…and support you to say, you know, “Hey yeah…” You know, when you say “I'm in a rut or I'm this” they'll…they'll boost those spirits.  And it won't be an ego boost. It won't be one of those things like “You're the best thing in the world next to cotton candy.” But they know how to push you in the right direction to support you. And I think that's what…having that support is important. And I mean that ranges from colleagues that I have, to neighbors, to a wife. Like, you know, it's…it's all those things. You know, it…it makes, you know, surviving that period of time easier.  And…and sometimes you just need that outer push. And you also need it…I think you need the people around you that are honest with you. You know, what I mean? [Chris]: You don't need “Yes men. Yes.” [Nathan]: Yeah right. Yeah you need somebody to go tell you the truth. I mean that's, you know, that's, you know, my friends, the people I surround myself with will tell me, you know, what they think. And…and sometimes I don't want to hear it. [censored] A lot of times I don't want to hear it. But it is what I needed to hear. [Christian]: Sure. No one likes hearing the hard truth. [Nathan]: Yeah, no you know. [Chris]: But to be able to appreciate it though when it's in front of you. [Nathan]: Yeah. Yeah you're right. [Chris]: That's one of the hard…the hardest thing that I've found is when, you know, getting that criticism. Whe…when you just want to wall up and go into like active defence mode. Like just letting your body language relax. Having, you know, open gestures and trying to be open-minded to put yourself in the other person's shoes, and see what they're seeing.  [Nathan]: Right. [Chris]: And then trying to see if there's some corrective action that needs to be made there. That's…that's hard when you just go into like “Alright go ahead, give me the feedback because it's rare that I ever get feedback like this. So, you know, take advantage of it while you can.” [Christian]: Sure. Well it can be challenging too because, you know, no one's perfect and no feedback is gonna be perfect. So you have to like decide “OK what's an honest truth that I need to hear” versus “OK that part is kind of [censored]. I'm gonna not take that, you know, what I'll take, you know, kind of not throw the baby off the bathwater.” Like taking the truth where you find it whether that's in, you know, quote a rival or enemy, or that's in someone who's, you know, really close to you and has your best interest at mind. You know, like that could be…it can be challenging. Because, you know, typically I find that if you're playing it safe, there's gonna be a lot less friction and a lot less controversy and criticism. If you're really pushing the bounds, that's when things get tough and people can get ugly. So… [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: You know, I know how to…at least I know how to do it. I know how to have a fight with myself. If that makes any sense. You find out [crosstalk] Yeah I know how to like… [Chris]: Elaborate on that. [Christian]: Yes do. [Nathan]: Because you've got to be willing to call your own [censored]. Right. You've got to be willing to kind of punch yourself in the face. Right. you've got to be… [Christian]: I need to watch conversations with you. [Nathan]: Yeah. Right. That's a staff meeting. Remember? It again it's, you know, you…it's like…I mean it sounds crazy but it's having that conversation in your head of “Hey Nathan, stop being a pussy and do what you know, what you need to do. Get your [censored] up off the couch. Or wake up on time. Or eat right. Or whatever it is. You're not doing these things. Stop…stop [censored] yourself.” And just having that honest, you know, that David Goggin [phonetics] said, you know, “You got to be able to look that man in the mirror.” Right. And that man in the mirror is, you know, me. And so if you can't have that honest fight, dialogue with yourself internally, I don't think it matters what anybody tells you then. [Christian]: Well the starting place for that is being self-aware. Like if you don't know yourself like you're gonna have a real tough time having that honest conversation. [Nathan]: Well most people can't do that though. They live in some [censored] fairyland. [Christian]: Well yeah, you know, I mean we all have our blind spots. Some people are more aware than…than others, you know. [crosstalk] The most important thing in life is…is being honest about that, you know.  [Nathan]: Right. Sorry. I don't know. You gotta find what works for you. I know what works for me. [Christian]: Yeah you…you be unique. [Nathan]: I'm good at doing that. Chris are we gonna wrap it up? [Chris]: Yeah so I think we…we hit on some good points. The…I think no matter where you are in your career you're gonna get hit with something that's gonna throw you off your game. You're gonna…you're gonna have a Nate moment where you got to be in front of the mirror and you got to kick yourself in the [censored].  You know, one of the things that I tell some of the new agents is, you're always gonna have a boss. And even when you're self-employed you still have a boss. It's the person in the mirror. And who do you want to work for? Do you want to work for a strong leader? Somebody who's going to step up and challenge the things that needs to be challenged to make sure that things are getting done that need to be done? Somebody that's gonna keep it on track? Or do you want to work for somebody who is just very lackadaisical and doesn't really care when you clock in?  And you have a boss, whether you're working for somebody else or yourself. So it's just a matter of making sure that you're doing the right things for you. When you get stuck in a rut, you got to pull yourself out of it. One way or another.  [Nathan]: Yeah, you know, Henry David Thoreau [phonetics] comes to mind. Sorry. Pulling out the big gun. But, you know, he said “What lies…what lies ahead of us and what lies behind us are small matters compared to what lies within us. And when you bring what's within you, out into the world, great things happen.” Right so, you know, I think you gotta remember what's inside. [Chris]: We need to set up Nate's…Nate's motivational quotes of the week. [Christian]: I know that's good. That's a good one. And as kind of closing thoughts…kind of reflecting on our conversation here. You know, obviously people's struggles are vary based on them, their personality, situation and what not. A lot of we've been saying is, you know, kind of “Don't give up. Keep trying. Push harder.” Yeah that kind of stuff. But I also want to say that it's not entirely up to you or it's not just about working hard or trying harder. Because sometimes, you know, you push too hard and you work too much and you get sick. And, you know, your body forces you to…to take a break. So I know for me one thing that's rejuvenating, and it can help me get out of a rut sometimes even when I feel like my rut is I have too much to do, is to act…intentionally take a break. Spend more time with the family. Unplug from work. Now some agents, you know, err on that side too much. Where, you know, spend too much time…they spend too much time relaxing. And not enough time working. I don't think that's our problem. And I think that's a lot of agents problems.  But give yourself permission to take a break, rejuvenate, spend time with family, you know, not always be…be working. Because sometimes that's all it takes to get out of a rut.  [Chris]: I couldn't agree with you more. And, you know, it's…sometimes it's hard for…for agents to take off, you know, an entire week from work. Just do a few long weekends every now and then. You don't have to…you don't have to take off a week or two weeks. Sometimes that's…that's not realistic. But make sure that your mental health is in check. And that you're taking some time to decompress and unwind and put things in perspective. What I've found is that when…when I'm able to do that, I'll come back with some new ideas. Because I'm not thinking about, you know, the day-to-day. I'll be able to just kind of, you know, day dream. Whatever it is. Read a good book and come back with, you know, a new perspective on what we're doing. So couldn't agree more with you Christian. Nate great points.  Everybody thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode of re:Think Real Estate. If you haven't already ,please go to the website which is rtrepodcast.com. sign up for the newsletter so you never miss an episode, whenever we drop one, which is every single week. Thanks for tuning in everybody. We'll see you next week. [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode Join today's discussion about how we can compete against a barrage of pressures affecting the real estate industry. We discuss where to focus attention and how to back a value proposition. Value is always more important than price. reThink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 33:09 RTRE 59 – Fighting the Commoditization of Real Estate [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. Nate is sick as a dog, so it's just me and Christian today. Christian how're you doing? [Christian]:  I'm doing pretty good, how are you? [Chris]:  I'm wonderful thank you so much for asking. So we're sitting here just talking and trying to figure out what the hell are we gonna talk about today, because nothing is just peeking our interest. But, you know what, we did get off into a little bit of a tangent about the commoditization of real estate and what we think real estate agents are gonna have to do in order to really pick up and continue to charge a premium service for what they're doing over the next, you know, a few years. So Christian why don't you let us know your thoughts on the matter and we'll just start the conversation. [Christian]:  Sure, I mean my, you know, initial thought on the matter and I have been thinking about it for years. And part of the reason I started my own brokerage is to have a little more leeway and, you know, how I did things and service I provide. But I think it's really…it seems to be a pretty polarizing issue for agents. The topic of compensation. Right. So there's…we all know there's a lot of, you know, new players on the markets with, you know, Redfin obviously being one of the big ones and then, you know, Opendoor and, you know, there's all these other…other ones that essentially are commoditizing the process where they're using tech to make it more efficient. Also trying to make it a better client experience to varying degrees of success. You know, if they figure it out…if they figure it out like, you know, Amazon's figured it out, you know, like the traditional brokerage models in a world of hurt. But luckily right now, you know, typically if, you know, you're…you're able to hire someone to for a discounted commission that experience is lacking. So there's still plenty of room for us to provide, you know, a more traditional compensation while being able to provide more service if your client's into that. But, you know, I think there's always going to be, you know, people who want to feed no matter what the experience or the end result they just want to, you know, save some money or they think they're, you know, they're pretty handy. And so they can do it themselves. But I think for a lot of us there's room to really double down on the experience we provide, the level of service, the complimentary things that that will pay for and take care of, you know, that sort of stuff. But I think where you get into kind of some more controversial aspects is where is the market going, you know, with…with our compensation structure, you know. And I think it really hurts us as industry and as agents and brokerages if we just have a defensive posture of protection. Because you're basically saying, you know, “I don't care what consumers want, I don't care what technology and the changing market is dictating I deserve blah blah blah.” And I think that's sticking your head in the sand. [Chris]:  That's why realtors are where we are. I mean, you know, they did the same thing on data. Right. “We're not gonna…This is our data. This doesn't belong to the public. The public they shouldn't have this. It's ours.” And now Zillow is there and Zillow has a great relationship with the consumer because they gave the data to the consumer. So I think yeah it's…you got to think about this stuff. Right. There's, you know, auto manufacturers make a variety of different cars at different budgets. Yeah, real estate is not a one-size-fits-all business. It shouldn't be. The commission is always negotiable and I think it's negotiable for a reason. I think it's negotiable because we're able to tailor what we're doing to what the client needs. If somebody goes in and says “I charge this on every single deal and I do all of this on every single deal”. Right if they charge, you know, one price to do an amazing marketing job and then they've got this little rinky-dink house that's coming along that doesn't need it all, because the price alone is gonna sell the house, why would they charge the same rate for all the same marketing, when the house does need it. So I mean… [Christian]:  It's dependable on your rates and on your service yeah.  [Chris]:  Yeah and I think that there's there's a lack of transparency there in the industry. I think that the… that that's an area right there that I just pointed out, that there's gonna be some changes in in transparency and how brokerages operate over the next, you know, few decades. We're see…we've already seen the transparency happen on the…the data being shared. But we…it's still very opaque on the pricing. [Christian]:  Yeah and, you know, and I think that transparencies is were I'm really passionate. Like we all kind of understand that there's, you know, a range of compensation structure and services provided, and…and whatnot. But I think the real key is for us as agents and brokers is to think about it from the client's perspective. Put ourselves in client's show.  [Chris]:  How dare you.  [Christian]:  And our, you know, the commission rate you think you deserve and start putting yourself in…in their position. I…I didn't…I remember when I was sitting down, you know, I did it with one of my friends who's, you know, VP of yeah this tech company. And, you know, I was kind of picking his brain but what his real estate experience was like. And, you know, he said some pretty harsh things, but I couldn't argue with him. You know, he's basically like, you know “Hey let's look at the hourly rates that, you know, agents make, you know, if they're making, you know, this amount of money on a half million dollar home sale that's like, you know, five hundred dollars an hour, you know, literally”. You know, if…if you said, you know, he kind of broke it down by…OK let's say…let's say you spend a week working on, you know, a listing. Not including, you know, that the cost you incurred or whatever. Like that's…that's a lot of money. And I'm like I can't…I can't really argue with that. Like, you know, so you better…you better be earning that or figure out to be more affective and efficient way of doing it, you know.  And I think that transparency is huge because agents may be on the face of it will argue and have their, you know, defences for why they think they deserve that compensation and won't reduce…won't reduce it. But at the end of the day, you know, you get behind closed doors and agents will talk about your main job is to prospect. Is to find new clients. Find new leads. Now the reason we have to charge so much is because you…you have to make a living, you know, doing so few transactions that so has to be at this high dollar amounts to have basically you're charging your paying clients all that time that's unbuildable that you're trying to get new clients. [Chris]:  I don't know about that. I think it can be…you can look at scales. Right so if…if an agent's making, you know, a hundred percent of their commission and paying a flat fee then yeah. Their job is to prospect. But you could…you could take all that responsibility off of the agent and you could have a brokerage that's just doing a higher split. And they've got somebody that all they're doing is setting appointments for that agent. In which case the agent job is now…the agents job is no longer the prospect. The agents job is to go out and sell homes. So it's…it it's up and… [Christian]:  All you've done is… [Chris]:  It's up to us who we will pick. Because you can take the same transaction, you could take these same structure, the same brokerage and you can make it work in like 20 different ways. There's…there's multiple ways to skin a cat. But the…the end result is that the agent has their own practice. It's just like a doctor, right. The…they are the Rainmaker. They're the producer. People come to see the doctor because it's a practice. Right. Not the doctor, it doesn't exist. So you've got to build that over time. And frankly because of the size of our transactions and the scope of our transactions you can't you can't expect us to handle a volume of, you know, low transactions to be able to give a high quality service. Because it requires a lot of attention to detail, a lot of hand-holding, a lot of nurturing, a lot of expectation setting. And…and it's not just once the property is listed. Because yeah once the property is listed, it's pretty easy. You…you get the contract and sometimes it's hard. Sometimes it's not. But you you're always getting that…Some…some properties are gonna be the 16 hours some are gonna be like a hundred hours. Some are gonna be multiple years that you're working on selling them. And there's…there's a ton of expenses that go into that so I just don't know. [Christian]:  Let's see and I understand that. I mean I understand all the arguments, you know, I've…I've heard it all and I probably used some of them, you know, at one point time. But the fact of there's so many different kind of models and, you know, whether or not the brokerage provides leads and different splint stuff like that doesn't matter. Because the model still the same. Like the time and money and energy to produce that lead is still in the system. It's still baked in. Right. [Chris]:  But that's the process in every business.  [Christian]:  [crosstalk] [Chris]:  That's the same thing in every single business.  [Christian]:  You know when I go buy a car I'm not paying $14,000 for it to the salesperson. You know, I'm not paying… [Chris]:  No but you're probably paying about 3% of the car value. [Christian]:  If I went…If I went to a doctor and the doctors like, you know, “Hey your…your half hour doctor's visits was, you know, ten thousand dollars.” I'm like “What the hell.” He's like “Well you understand I got my cost and got this and insurance and this and that.” [Chris]:  No but your half hour doctor's visit easily could be six hundred. [Christian]:  OK but I'm saying [laughter] we can't lay high cost for the time spent and he explains to me all of his costs and how the industry works and this and that. And sooner I'm thinking “I don't give a [censored] how broke it down in your practice.” [Chris]:  Yeah well don't explain it. This is my rate.  [Christian]:  But I'm saying that's the…that's the excuse that…that I get anytime I bring this up to other agents is “Well but I got this cost and the split and this and that”. And, you know what the consumer says “I don't give a [censored]. I don't care how you broke it and assist in this.” [Chris]:  So…so…so… [Christian]:  So I'm saying we can't…we can't basically say “hey this is just how it is. The industry is broken and I've got all these costs.” The consumer is thinking “I don't care it shouldn't cost me, you know, $500 an hour to hire an agent”. You know, somewhat my point there is we need to stop defending the industry and our compensation if their values not there. You know, like if you can't, you know, have a compelling reason for like “Hey this two days I spent on your house and I got ten thousand dollars out of it”. You know, if a consumer, you know, is savvy and breaks that down you better have a good reason for, you know, why…why you're charging so much. If, you know, if that value is not there, if the consumer doesn't see the value otherwise, I think more and more the consumer is going to Redfin.  And the Opendoors and they push a button to sell a house option. [Chris]:  I think I see. I think I understand what you're trying to get at. Which is it's not that what we're doing is not worth the value, but you're saying agents are out there to their consumer in conversation trying to justify the costs associated with running their business and their rates. [Christian]:  Sure I mean even my friend who makes his point he's like “There's value in an agent I just don't think it's as high as, you know, what…what some would say is, you know, kind of the going rate for…for hiring an agent.” So it's not that there's no value, it's just that it's…it's kind of inflated especially in this day and age when technology should be making it more efficient and cheaper. Not, you know, not keeping it the same for last 30 years. [Chris]:  But it's not. Technology has improved drastically and agent productivity has decreased over the last thirty years.  [Christian]:  Right. And so that my point is basically, I think the writing's on the wall that even for traditional brokerage models like you're not gonna be able to defend your compensation model forever because technology is going to make you obsolete, you know. New models are going to make that a harder and harder to defend. Even if you go with the “I provide, you know, a Nordstrom experience or Rapala [phonetics] things inn”. And that's guys the way I went, you know, because I don't really have an answer for how to make it cheaper and provide a good experience, you know. If someone does great but, you know, so that's…that's the one route I went instead of the I'm competing for, you know, the one percent listings or whatever, the…the discounting of…quote to discounted listings, you know. [crosstalk] value but I don't. [Chris]:  Because we have a…we have a business line that is it's basically marketing for first sale, buy owners. Gives them access to the MLS. And what we've found is that the…the properties there do on average sell for less. You know, when somebody…it's supported by all the studies that you've ever read on commission's in real estate. When one party realizes that the other party is saving money they try and take advantage of the other party. So if a seller's coming in without an agent or if the buyers working with the seller and the seller has no agent, the sellers gonna try and get that property for less than the market value by about the equivalent that the seller would have ended up paying an agent in the first place. Because when…when one party is trying to save money the other party's gonna take advantage of that and nobody ends up saving. Except maybe the party that takes advantage of it. So it really doesn't matter. The experience is ultimately key. If somebody feels like they're getting the value and that's important and I think you're right that we need to make sure that we understand our value proposition. I can't tell you how many real estate agents I've ever talked to and said, you know, what…what makes you stand out. You know, if I was talking to them about sending a referral their way or something like that and they're in a different market, I did that once for…for my admin. When I was looking for an agent in Orlando to send to them. So that they could sell their house. I went through nine agents, nine of them. All of them very reputable, very highly visible in the community, before I got to one that could literally tell me “This is why I'm the best and this is why you need to hire me.” Everybody else they were…they were spewing. I had somebody say “What do you mean?” Tell me what do I mean when I asked them why I should send business to them. Like come on, I had other people there was somebody at Exit Realty and they'd they just kind of spewed like their…their brokerage model and the tools and techniques that they had. You know, the…the agent that ended up just really impressing me her name was Dallas and she's out of Orlando spectacular. Now I'll send business to her again because my agents had or the…my admins parents had an amazing experience. She came in, she did everything she said she was gonna do and no big deal. But agents don't know what their value proposition is.  And to your point we don't need to be hung up on that number. Whatever…whatever the number is that we charge we need to make sure that accordingly for what our clients need, and then we need to make sure that we are letting them feel like they're getting value there because if, you know…I could go in and charge a million dollars and if I asked enough people I'm sure I'll get one sucker to sign on to it, but that's just a numbers game. [Christian]:  Sure well when it comes to the whole idea about your value proposition you…again you need a, you know, to do our job well you need to put yourself in that consumers place, you know. Because I've heard so many agents, you know, say “Well my value is this.” And I'm like “You're, you know, that's what your broker tells you to say. Your consumer doesn't give a [censored] about that quote value” You know, like they don't care that you have an idea X home search site. Why don't you, you know, come up with a value that the consumer is willing to pay for not something that you tell them “Hey this is a value you better value it”. You know. [Chris]:  I want to know things that I can't find out on my own. If I'm a consumer like if there's something that I can't find out or there's something I don't know, that's where my value…that's where I'm gonna find value and hiring a professional. I do not clean my own teeth, you know. I'm…I'm not a dentist, I'm gonna go…and I'm not gonna run my own x-rays. You're not gonna see me diagnosing my own medical diseases. It just like Nate said on the last episode. He called up a dentist who said “How should I pull out my teeth with the pliers or Visegrad [phonetics]”. And he goes “What?” And he goes “Well why are you listing your house for sale by owner?” And immediately…and now he has the listing that I thought that was brilliant. But it just comes down to making sure that 1-we know what we're doing and where we're providing the value that they need. And 2- that we are being better than the average bear. Right.  We want to make sure that when we're meeting with people if we're charging that premium, if we are going in and making a good bit of money on a property we need it to be worth it. [Christian]:  Right. No exactly I mean bottom line, you know, we need to be thinking about it from the consumers point of view and be flexible on what that conversation is , what the value is, you know, we're bringing what the services are. You know, don't get stuck in kind of the navel-gazing or whatever the saying is, you know. We're basically we're just kind of inward looking and, you know, all we can see is our industry talking points, you know. Don't get stuck on defending your compensation at all cost if your client doesn't…doesn't see the value there. You don't either move on to clients that do see the value or change. You know, be willing to adjust that compensation. [Chris]:  Definitely so we're about halfway through the episode today and we're gonna go ahead and do a real estate bonus thought. Christian I want to get your ideas on some of these because these are actually some new household products that just came on the market. So I don't know if you guys have it out there but we have a grocery store here called Sprouts. It's owned by Whole Foods. It's like a Trader Joe's meets Whole Foods. And I think that that's who's making these. But it's Pencils by Sprout. They get…so there's these pencils and then when they get too short you actually stick them up right into a pot and there's seeds in them. There…so there's like plant seeds embedded in the pencil. So when the pencil gets too short and you can't use it anymore you just stick it in a pot and water it. And it starts growing things. [Christian]:  It's interesting. Not something I would buy but OK [laughter]. [Chris]:  I mean hey it's like you can have your little pencil in the kitchen and then when you're done with it you stick it in a little pot and maybe grow some basil or cherry tomatoes or a mint or something like that. They come in all different…different like styles of pencil.  [crosstalk] Yeah I mean…let's see what else do we get? We have a…there's…they're now making the LED light bulbs that flicker like flames. So I don't know if you've seen those. But now they're…they're coming in LED NITOR. N-I-T-O-R I think. Is…they make a flip…flicker flame effect LED light bulb. So you can…if you've got outside electric lanterns you can put in a flame style now and they're LED and they're low power saving. Have you seen the disposable plungers? [Christian]:  No. What do you like flush it down the toilet we've done using it? [Chris]:  All right. No I think you throw them away. But… [Christian]:  OK.  [Chris]:  Do you remember a long time ago they had that…it was like that plastic wrap but you would like push the seal around the end edge. So you could take like plastic wrap and put it over a canister and instead of like it wouldn't go. [Christian]:  Yeah. [Chris]:  You push it and it would like bind together.  [Christian]:  OK sure.  [Chris]:  Well apparently that wasn't really healthy but they've got it's like a giant piece of saran wrap and it's got stickers around the edge and you put the sticker on the edge of the toilet so it covers the whole bowl. And then you just kind of push down on it creating the seal. And yeah that…creating…it's a disposable plunger. So when you're done with it you throw it away.  [Christian]:  OK so it turns the whole toilet into a plunger. OK.  [Chris]:  Yeah. Yeah it makes the…the whole seal it's like turning the…the toilet into a giant balloon and you're just pushing down to create… [Christian]:  OK. That could be a great practical joke on someone. Just put that down. [Chris]:  Oh yeah just put it down and then shut the seat and see what happens.  [Christian]:  Just wait for him to try to take number two. [laughter]  [Chris]:  Yeah or number one with the little kid, you know, I mean there's…there's no safety there. I don't know hopefully it's not clear because if it's clear then yeah. [Christian]:  But just make sure you do that joke at your friend's house. [Chris]:  Yeah don't…don't do it at my place. Definitely don't do it in my office. [laughter] So yeah that's this week's bonus thoughts. Everybody if you have any ideas of things that you want to hear on the show please make sure you let us know. Go to our rtrepodcast.com. sign up for the newsletter. Hit the contact form. Let us know what you think and what you want to hear about. If there's something cool that you think we should talk about just shoot us an email or let us know in the contact us form on the page. But please make sure you subscribe. Give us a five star review on iTunes. We really need it. We're desperately in need of them. Now… [Christian]:  Please listen.  [Chris]:  Please, please listen. Please like us. No but getting back to what we're talking about which was the…the industry creating value for our clients and making sure that we're not going to overboard and we're looking at things at a consumer's perspective. So Christian I'll let you continue on with…with what you were talking about there with making the consumer step it into their shoes. So how do you step into the consumer shoes? [Christian]:  [laughter] See organize my thoughts. I might to edit out some of this… [Chris]:  This will be edited, highly edited, highly alcoholic, highly flammable. [Christian]:  OK I mean I'm trying to think about like everything…anything else I haven't already kind of… [Chris]:  How do you know what the consumer wants?  [Christian]:  I mean I think that comes with experience. I mean the key to put yourself in the consumer shoes it's thinking “OK if…” Try to…try to forget that you're an agent in the industry. It's all easier to do if you're new which I think is kind of what gave me the edge, you know, when I got into this. But try to say “OK if I was buying a house or if I was selling a house what would I want? What would, you know, what would I want my agent to be able to do for me? What would my expectations be? What I'd be willing to pay for and what? would I expect him to turn from that?” Now I think a lot of…it's usually the more savvy clients I have this pushback, you know, on the commission or on these specifics of the marking marketing and analytics and what I'm actually doing for them. And I think that's great. I mean those are usually the best people I enjoy working with because, you know, they keep you on your toes and they keep you…keep you honest, you know. Like if those are people that you don't like working with you, maybe should re-evaluate exactly what your value is. If they're kind of calling you on, you know, what you're charging and what you're providing for that that fee…On and on I mean that's just kind of how I try to approach things which can be challenging because it kind of goes against a good chunk of industry which tends to maybe stay there for the consumer and the experience and client stuff. But they, you know, tend to kind of take their talking points from the NAR and their brokerage and, you know, kind of defending the industry as opposed to defending being and doing its best and what is required.  [Chris]:  Being the little soldier or worker bee. [Christian]:  Yeah well it's tough to do because I mean a lot of that kind of stuff you don't necessarily see. You know, it's more in the subconscious level like “I have been doing this  for 10 years or 20 years” and than that's just how it's always been done. Like if…if an answer to, you know, a question is “Well that's just how it's always been done” like you need to stop right there and re-evaluate. Like that's never good answer for anything. [Chris]:  It really isn't. So I think that's a good idea is try and imagine what you would like as a consumer. And…and if you've been in real estate for a while, you know, imagine what you would like as a consumer in another big purchase. Right. Imagine what you would like as a consumer if you were looking for a financial adviser or some…you were looking to purchase a boat. Or I don't…I don't know. Something that you have no idea where you're getting into. But then another thing I think you could do is ask. Talk to your consumers. Go back to your client and survey them. Say “Did you think the service that I provided was worth the value that you paid?” And if you get a lot of yeses then you got something to build on. There's…there's a lot of leadership books and one of the biggest things that I've seen be a reoccurring thing is, you know, if you're trying to figure out your why and I think Simon Sinek [phonetics] is good at this. Simon Sinek says “If you're trying to figure out your why, you should go to some really close friends, somebody that's not afraid to give you an honest answer. And say “Why are you friends with me?”” And Simon does that and it's really weird and it's really awkward. But…I've never done it. But if if you're having trouble, you know, you can go and ask somebody because that is gonna give you a starting point for what your purpose is. Because if…if somebody tells you, you're caring or this or that of the other or “You know what, I really hate you but, you know, you're…you're just kind of sticking around there so I just let you be a part of my life.” Yeah I mean it's gonna give you an idea of where you are and who you are and what people think about you.  So you've got to find somebody that you trust. If it's a past client, if it's a friend of yours go and talk to them and just say “Hey look what did I do well? What didn't I do well? Was it worth it? Do you think that I saved you the money that, you know, do you think I got you more money than I was worth on the property? Do you think that I saved you the time and headache of you trying to figure everything out on your own?” And then go from there. [Christian]:  Yeah I mean that's what I did when I first got into real estate, you know, I basically went to my friends that I knew had, you know, owned houses and like, you know “How did you find your agent? What do you like about them? What didn't you like about them?” You know, you start seeing these themes, you know, of who… [Chris]:  Wait you actually did the market research? [Christian]:  Yeah. [Chris]:  I didn't know real estate agents did market research. [Christian]:  Well I mean I knew from the get-go that like you've got to stand out. I mean there's so many agents like you. You can't just do your job and, you know, expect that to be enough. I mean maybe it is because there's a job… [Chris]:  Can I quote you on that? That's…”You can't just do your job and expect that to be enough.” That's good. [Christian]:  Yeah I…I agree. And then to make sure that I don't fall into, you know, kind of the trap that I'm, you know, railing against with agents. You know, we, you know, always do like, you know, kind of as part of the initial buyer or seller consultation ask them “What do you expect from me? Like what are your past experience is like?” You know “What was good? What was bad?” You know, to kind of gauge, you know, like what…what maybe some of the tough points might be or how we can make it a better experience for them. And then after the transaction, you know, follow-up survey of like “Did we do everything that's your hoping? Did we exceed your expectations? You know, to make sure they're like if we did drop the ball or something happened like we can we can fix that. And, you know, move forward so it doesn't happen again. [Chris]:  Yeah well I think that that's definitely a good…good strategy making sure that you're…you're asking for feedback. Talking to the consumer. Finding out what they want. And that…that could be different in every market. Because if…if I'm here in Atlanta and I'm talking about, you know, what…what value I can bring to a seller, you know, it may be different, Christian, what you're going to get in in Seattle, you know. A seller in Seattle may want a free bag of coffee with every purchase whereas in Atlanta they may want some Krispy Kreme Doughnuts. I don't know. But it's just a matter of making sure that we understand our audience and that we know what we're doing and why we're worth what we are. And, you know, for anybody that doesn't know if you're worth what you are just reach out to us. I'm sure we'll be happy to have that conversation and help you get bit down to…down to the grass roots of it. And see, you know, exactly where your value proposition lies for your clients. Christian any final thoughts for the for today's episode? [Christian]:  Think for yourself and think from the clients' perspective. That's my thoughts. [Chris]:  Think for yourself. Alright thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode of re:Think Real Estate. It's great having you here. We miss you Nate. We hope you're feeling better and we will see you next week.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode When the transaction closes, do you continue to develop and nurture the relationship or do you move on to the next deal? Tune in to todays show to hear what some agents are doing to keep the momenntum going! reThink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 33:22 RTRE 58 – Keeping A Relationship Great Post Closing [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. Missed you in the last week. We're glad to be back. Got Christian, Nate here. And last week we left off with Christian kind of giving a little tease. We're gonna talk this week about how to continue the relationship with your clients post closing. So let's not waste any good time. Christian let's dive on in. What are you doing to improve and continue that relationship with your clients once the deal's done? [Christian]:  Sure yeah I mean, there's so many things you...you can do. Unfortunately it's...it's kind of the consistently lacking aspects of a lot of agents business even if your tool rock star and you do a great job it's often very easy to lose track of your clients. And they lose tracking you and, you know, you're later they're like “I can't even remember my agent's name or how to get a hold of. I'm gonna contact someone else.” So to help avoid that obviously the creating unique content, you know, whether that's through email or social media. Whatever it is kind of the...I won't say the easy way, that's probably one of the harder ways. But there's a lot of services and companies you can use that will help provide value as well. I kind of alluded to a the service that we have started using called Home bot. And that has been very cool because you can essentially…now it doesn't work with sellers because they've just sold their home, you know, unless they bought a new one. But it's kind of geared towards homeowners. So obviously it's gonna be your buyer clientele. But it's pretty cool because it's...it's cheap and you sign them up for it. And it will send them a monthly email that's real easy to use information, you know. With like says, you know, your estimated value for your home is X and it shows a graph of the value. And it'll, you know, he knows your mortgage and whatnot. And it will say “Hey your your net worth of your home is this. This is how much you've paid in toward your principle, toward your interest.” If you're to, you know, refine in 15 years or 25 or 30 this is what this payments would look like. If you made a payment of an extra whatever, you can choose that within the...within the portal. It will show you how much you'd save over the course of the loan. If you're to Airbnb out a room it will show you, you know, based on the average in your area how much your revenue you would have, you know, extra per month.  [Chris]:  So hold on. On a per-room basis? [Christian]:  Yeah. [Chris]:  Wow that's cool. That's really cool.   [Christian]:  Yeah so it's got all sorts of cool analytics, you know, that show you all your options. And, you know, and it has its own firm within it. You know, you're...you're the one that's branded in there and, you know, so it's always kind of putting the bug in the air. If like “Oh look at this is, what the market's done. This is what my house may be worth…” You know, and prompts them to like “Get a CMA from your agent”. And then it has all the links in the backend of like “How many have been sent out, what are they clicking on, do they open it?” But like the open rates and click through rate on this stuff is way, way higher than any email. You don't care how cool and revolutionary your, you know, your email marketing is.  [Chris]:  Like what are you talking like… [Christian]:  If you're...if you're killing it with the email marketing you have like a 30% open rate. I think the average in our industry is 16%. So you typically will get 20% where did a lot of, you know, unique content it's just... it's hard to get people's attention. And, you know, in email marketing so...so this is… [Chris]:  Have you heard from your clients on what they think of it?  [Christian]:  I mean we…were pretty early on and using it. So not yet. But I know some agents that I really respect, you know, they're really killing it. And they've got great things to say about how you've actually gotten the listings from this tool, you know, from people that are their clients and the other people who aren't their clients. So if you can use it as…as marketing and lead gen as well, even though it's kind of set up and branded as something to provide value ongoing for your…for your buyers. So that's one…that's one tool. You know, I've got a whole workflow process to stay in touch with them that reminds me to actually, you know, reach out to them.  One good point of contact can be, you know, if with your buyer clients to remind you, you know “Beginning of the year hey don't forget to send out, you know, that…the final settlement statement.” And it gives you a reason to contact them. Say “Hey, you know, here's your final settlement statement in case you misplaced it. You bought a house last year. You're gonna want this for your taxes.” You know, so…so that sort of thing. [Chris]:  That's awesome. Nate what are you doing to continue that relationship afterwards? [Nathan]:  I'm not [censored] out all my data to other people like Christian. [laughter] [Christian]:  [censored] out what data?  [Nathan]:  Just teasing. I keep it simple. The good old 26 and 52 rule. I'm sure one of you know what that is. Right?  [Christian]:  I say marathon. No it's 20 miles. I don't know. [Chris]:  26 contacts for 52 weeks. [Nathan]:  You got it. Keep it simple stupid right. That's…it's…there's 26 letters in the alphabet. You just go down twice. Make…make your phone calls. I don't do anything crazy. Again it's…I call it the…the personalized organic thing. Just call people and say “Hey Chris what's up? How are you? How's the kids?” I think people appreciate that as much. And the reason I do that is because that's what I like. All the [censored] I get in the mail, all the stuff that I get an email, I just hit delete delete delete. Or I throw it in the trash. But if somebody actually takes the time to reach out to me and say “Hey” I find value in that. So I forget who it was talking to the day. They were talking about, you know, lead gen and all that. And they said, you know “Find whatever you're good at and you enjoy doing and do it well.” I don't enjoy making the calls and doing all the other stuff. I'm annoyed by the other stuff. So I therefore don't do the things that I would find annoying. I just rather make a call and say “Hey how are you?” And, you know, my wife was just down you know, in Athens Chris. And did me a favour [crosstalk] Well and, you know, I call it…I called a client, a past client of mine. I said “Hey I know you love creature Conference. Wife's down in Athens.” And he said “Oh my God please have her grab me a case.” Right listen that…that case of beer goes a long way. [Chris]:  Oh yeah.  [Nathan]:  You know. [Chris]:  Because it's not just the beer. It's not the item. The fact that you thought about him.  [Nathan]:  The fact that I thought about him. That's right. Yeah for me it's, you know, that's what works. I…I…I'm really turned off by…I like what Chris and Christian mentioned. And I've looked into that a little bit. Not read a lot on it. What I don't like is these automated things that go out that they don't have…they just…they have no personal feel. And so I think, you know, that's a value out on my side. I think it's where realtors really lose sight. They just…they turn into this transactional thing and they could'tn care less after they're done with you. [Chris]:  So the way Christian's working it I think it's kind of like the best of both worlds. Because utilizing something like this to automate some of the contact, but then also following up within the CRM to make sure that those relationships stay nurtured and that it doesn't become an automated feeling. [Christian]:  Right. Well and…and this isn't a replacement for those touches. This is an excuse to reach out and be like “Hey I just set you up with this cool tool. This is how it works.” And , you know, and, you know, because…because I know for me…I mean the key really is find out something that works for you, that's natural, that you enjoy doing. Because I know for me if I just get a random phone call from someone that I haven't heard from for a while I'm thinking “What do you want? What's your angle?”  Like, you know, and, you know, and I used to kind of approach it when I was a new agent that way. But it always felt weird because I'd be like I just call someone out of the blue and never really coming around to. So I'm kind of looking for business, you know, like “No I am not looking to buy or sell.” So like don't do that. You know, but if you don't have an excuse or you haven't built, you know, done the hard work of building that relationship either through the transaction or afterwards, you know, it's going to come off as I'm calling for a self, you know, motivate gain. As opposed to “Here's a tool you're gonna find really cool. It can benefit you.” And it gives you an excuse to also reach out and contact them, you know, in person. Which really is going to have your biggest…your biggest bang for the buck. You know, over email or text or something. [Nathan]:  I'll be honest too. They're the clients that I don't I don't want a referral from them. And it's not that there was a bad thing or the transaction was bad or anything. I just…they weren't my type of people. And so, you know, I…I don't really need a referral from them. If that makes any sense. I just, you know, it's…it's kind of the way. I am…it's like I developed these almost deep emotional bonds with my client. I mean it's…it becomes a friendship. So, you know, if we're not buddy-buddy afterwards that's OK. You know, and maybe they do refer me somebody but there's some that I just…I don't really give a [censored] about. And I'm OK with that. [Chris]:  Well I think that having an excuse to reach out to people is definitely a good thing. There needs to be a few touches where, you know what, you're calling them just to call them. And make them feel like you were just thinking about them. But one of the things that I've kind of talked about with my agents over the last few years, is that keep it…keep a tab on when the anniversary of their house is and every year send them a CMA. Let them know “Hey this is what your home value is.” Seems like Home bought does that on a regular basis for you. So… [Christian]:  You can still send out your own or call them.  [Chris]:  Yeah send out your own and call them. And check in on the value of the house. In Georgia we have a lot of…we have homestead exemptions where the tax break is different on your personal property. And that has to be filed by a certain date each year. So before that filing date, January, February, having the agents contact their clients from the past year and reminding them “Hey don't forget to file for your homestead exemption.” There are…there are lots of reasons to reach out to people over the…for post closing. And I think that, you know, as long as we're doing it that's the most important part. [Christian]:  Yeah oh no sorry I mean to interrupt. [Chris]:  No go ahead.  [Christian]:  OK. The…what we're talking about so is kind of the ongoing long-term stuff, right. [Chris]:  Yeah. [Christian]:  You know….you know, if a big thing to you is providing, you know, an exceptional client experience is something that's gonna, you know, help, give them something to talk about so they're actually, you know, advocating for you. You know, something that's been really effective for us is doing a complimentary housewarming party. You know, for us we have a lot of people here that are new to the area and, you know, they may not, you know, have a close network of family in whatever. And something that if we can provide some drinks and some appetizers and organize it for them, and there is this, you know, fun event to welcome in their neighbours and their friends and co-workers and whatever else. Like that that is going to be way more impactful and help you build relationship with them. And something remember then, you know, customized steak knives or some cheesy ask-your-realtor closing gifts [laughter]. [Chris]:  Yeah. [Christian]:  You know, I mean closing gifts are a huge waste of money and time if you're just trying to like get your quote brand in front of them on some cheesy kitchenware. [Chris]:  Cutting board or knives or…Nothing against Costco but frankly… [Nathan]:  I go for the experience over…over the things. I mean items are forgettable experiences. It's much harder to forget. [Chris]:  Yeah I mean that's like gift-giving 101. Right you give a gift that you…that means something to the person not because you want to give the gift. Like if you're gonna give a gift you make sure “Hey look this is…this is…I'm giving it to you because I think this is something that's gonna mean something to you”. Not “Hey I'm giving it to you because, you know, this is my personal brand and this is what I do.” Like everybody. Because now you no longer stand out like somebody that is thinking about them. You just stand out as, you know, they're one of everybody now. So it's making people feel unique, I think is definitely a huge thing on the gift-giving front. And Client Giant does that, right? Christian you're using them. [Christian]:  Yeah, yeah they do kind of like touch point, you know, gifts when you passed your inspection. And then, you know, half of your transaction they'll send out moving boxes and your closing gift and move your utilities over. And, you know, all with handwritten notes from, you know, white gloves. Coming from you. And if it's…if the gift doesn't seem like something that's appropriate for your client you could, you know, send a message say “Hey do you have something else because blah, blah, blah, blah.”  You know, if they don't cook they don't a cutting board or whatever. You know. [Chris]:  Yeah I mean and for some people like a housewarming party that's gonna be a big thing. Unless they hate people. [Christian]:  If they're so introvert that's probably not a good gift.  [Chris]:  They're probably not gonna want that. But I think your idea behind that is that during the course of that relationship you're gonna determine whether or not that person is somebody who's gonna want that. [Christian]:  Sure. Well it's great because it it's something that they may want to do but may never get around to. Or it's a big hassle. And it also gets you in front of all of their closest people, you know, so it's a natural networking, you know. Because I mean they're gonna be like “Oh here's my agent that helped me blah blah blah.” They'll be talking you up, hopefully, if you did good job, you know. So all sorts of opportunities, you know, for you. But then also for your client. You know, because I mean you don't just want to be thinking about, you know, ask ask ask. You're gonna be like give give give give. And they're doing the, you know, reciprocating and advocating for you without you having to directly ask them. [Chris]:  Sounds good. So we're…we're approaching the halfway mark in the episode now. So we're gonna go ahead with week two of doing the re:Think Realty bonus thoughts. So as I'm just seeing this for the first time. These are some thoughts on things that exist in real estate and we're gonna get everybody's two thoughts on it.  [Christian]:  What is it? [Chris]:  Signs in neighborhoods and in houses. OK so this one I think this is signs that have been found in houses.  [Christian]:  Not signs from God? [Chris]:  Not signs from God. But these are some signs that have been found in houses and in neighborhoods. I just want your first reaction on them. Christian you're gonna go first. [Christian]:  Yeah well so I show the house. [Chris]:  I've got some some here that I'm gonna read off. I want your reaction on them. [Christian]:  Yeah. Oh I got you. I got you.  [Chris]:  So a sign that says “Please do not drink this water.” Above a toilet. [Christian]:  Yeah w-wait that'd be weird. That would be weird. I have never seen that.  [Chris]:  Yeah that's a little weird. “Please do not flush paper towels tissues and wipes kitchens…kittens and puppies hopes and dreams. Thank you.” [Christian]:  OK OK trying to be funny. Cute. [Chris]:  Trying to be funny. Thing…things in houses. “Beware of smartphone zombies.” Nate. [Nathan]:  Stupid.  [Christian]:  Stupid. [laughter] Hard crowd today.  [Chris]:  “Don't make our butts pick up your cigarette buds.”  [Christian]:  OK. [Chris]:  The roaches are getting cancer. [Christian]:  Cool. [Nathan]:  I mean… [Chris]:  Found in neighbourhoods.  [Nathan]:  Yeah that's gotta be somewhere like [crosstalk]. [Chris]:  Yeah like an ATA. What are some weird signs that you guys have seen in houses? Anything? [Christian]:  Well…Sorry go ahead Nate. [Nathan]:  Well I mean I've never seen it on a sign. I have seen it on a billboard. It's in Atlanta and it stands out. But that's the only one that ever…you know. [Chris]:  Which one? [Nathan]:  One for the pink pony it says “Do you love candy? We do too and all our friends.” [laughter] OK that's creative marketing but like I've never seen like…I've never seen signs. I've seen things displayed that I thought were inappropriate. Maybe.  [Christian]:  OK. If it's inappropriate for Nathan it's gonna be really bad. [Chris]:  Oh yeah. You gotta share that. You can't let us hang. [Nathan]:  So no like I got a client ready to list his house and, you know, he was a good old boy. And that's fine. But he had rebel flags and things of that nature all over the home. And some other very derogatory racist things that, you know, he's like “What do you think I should do with them?” And I said “You take them down.” Like, you know, cuz somebody like might come and burn your house down. Yes that's right. Yeah but it's like, you know, I've seen things like that. But not, you know, not sign…signs that are cute or… [Chris]:  Things that are divisive. [Nathan]:  Yeah right. like you want to sell your house. You don't wanna have it burnt down. [laughter]. [Christian]:  Yeah I mean I've…I can't think of any, you know, memorable signs per se. But I do remember showing a house once where, you know, sometimes listing agents will have like, you know, house signs up on the wall or whatever to like highlight unique things about the property. And this person went to town. I mean I walked in and it was like just signs everywhere on everything. I was surprised they had like a sign on the floor that said like “Floor”. [laughter] You know, I mean it was…it was over the top. I took some pictures of it because I was like “Why do they have a sign in the kitchen saying, you know, “Kitchen counter”. Like obviously it's a kitchen counter. That's not a unique feature.” Like… [Chris]:  Nice.  [Christian]:  Yeah it was ridiculous.  [Chris]:  That's good stuff. There wasn't one of my properties or one that I've shown but there's an agent that I know here in Atlanta, and she posted the other day a property she was in. It was like an old commercial property and there was like makeshift altars and just like the stuff nightmares are made out of. They had upside-down crosses. They had crucifixes. Like in the basement to support beams they had like big crucifixes. It was absolutely bizarre and there's a lots of… [Christian]:  Blood pools on the floor or anything? [Chris]:  No no I didn't see any blood pools but it did look like it was like an old school. So imagine like an old like elementary school basement. Like tiny windows like 1942…15 build. [Christian]:  Hounted.  [Chris]:  The windows are like plastered over. Like and then you just see these crosses that have giant crucifixes. And look…and there was like altars. And just weird. There were mattresses on the floor like something weird was going on there. So yeah there's crazy stuff out there. But that that kind of ends this segment of re:Think Real Estate bonus thoughts. Tell us what you think, whether you like it or not. Just kind of switching it up a little bit. Leave us a message on Facebook. Shoot us a review. Comment on the website rtrepodcast.com. And make sure you sign up for our newsletter.  So getting back to our topic today talking about continuing the relationship with your clients post-closing. And we've covered a lot about how to just keep talking to them. And basically just keep talking to your clients. But how do we…how are we able to make sure that we're doing that? And I want to talk to you Christian on this. Because I know we all kind of gave up on Nate ever building out his CRM. [laughter] So that…you're never gonna live there. But Christian so it…how are you utilizing your CRM to continue your client relationships post-closing? [Christian]:  Yeah I mean in a nutshell I'm using it as a tool…as a tool to remind me to stay in touch with, you know, my clients. It's not doing it for me. It's not a drip campaign. It's not automated in that sense. I still have to take action. I still have to send an email or still have to call them. So I mean that's…that's what I think the real strength of technology is. Because usually if something's fully automated people can tell. And it's really hard or if not impossible to have that personalized touch, you know, and so I use the technology to remind me to send out, you know, anniversary email. And I usually coupled that with, you know, once again we're talking about to buyers, you know, homeowners. Couple that with a handwritten note and maybe a CRM or, you know, one-page snapshot about their house or something. So trying to hit multiple layers not just like once a year they hear from me from an email or a phone call. It's, you know, a layered effect. Where Brian Buffeny [phonetics] says is a stacking effect. So, you know, you strategically have OK an email followed up by a call followed by, you know, a handwritten note or something. Yeah whatever seems like… [Chris]:  Different avenues. [Christian]:  Exactly different…different touchpoints that's complement each other. Not that look sporadic and un-thought through or inconsistent.  [Chris]:  So using the CRM to remind you to do this stuff, how difficult was it to set that up? [Christian]:  I mean that's the…the big challenge I think for a lot…for a lot of agents, you know. They got great ideas but, you know, how they do it or how they have time to do it or it seems so daunting that they never do. You know, from for me it was like “OK here's my process.” I mapped it out and then I found the platform to be able to do that. For me it's Realvolve. And so over one, you know, Christmas break I basically took a week and set out and just built out workflows. Not the funnest thing to do but I mean it's…it enables you to really provide that client experience and make a consistent thing. Then, you know, I'm kind of constantly tweaking it as, you know, I'm refining my process and whatnot.   And as a brokerage owner we provide all that to our agents, which is a huge value gained over maybe, you know, a brokerage that provides a CRM but there's no processes involved. They just have an address book that they have to upload stuff into, you know. So to be able to have, you know, those reminders and touch points all built out and stuff for you is pretty big. [Chris]:  Awesome. Yeah that is huge and kudos for you for building that out for your company. So Nate I know you're not using a CRM, what are you using to track…like making sure that you're going through the alphabet twice every year? And you're using the…what is that? Just your phone? [Christian]:  Garmin [phonetics]? You're using your Garmin? Your phone? If you unmute yourself we could hear you a little better.  [Nathan]:  Yeah. Yes I am using what you thought. Yes that's…I am not… [Chris]:  Our audience can't see us.  [Nathan]:  Yes sorry. Yeah the iPhone, the iPhone X. Give me that. But yeah and I use my brain, you know. It's  our computer out there. Right. [Christian]:  That's the most defective part of man.  [Nathan]:  I know I get crazy with it. Could I be better? Oh absolutely. But I'm forwarding… [Christian]:  When you gonna build out your CRM Nate? Just think about workflows. You just asked for those.  [Nathan]:  I don't know. I just…I discontinued Realvolve months ago. [crosstalk] [Christian]:  The decline starts. [Nathan]:  Why pay for something that I'm not using.  [Chris]:  That's a big thing with real estate where agents pay for things they're not using all the time. And the whole power of a CRM, everybody asked “What's the best CRM out thee?” “The one you use.” [Nathan]:  Yeah, you know, and then I use Google for about everything else. And I use Google a lot so if you wanted to say I had a CRM, Google I mean…I use all my transactional stuff, timelines, everything. All that is all built into Google. So I've in essence created what works for me. I guess if you would. But I don't have a traditional third-party both on technology. But again I use Google. It's a free platform and I like it. So… [Christian]:  You just mean like the calendar essentially? You're… [Nathan]:  Yeah. [Christian]:  What aspect of Google? [Nathan]:  Yeah the calendar, the contacts, the whole shebang. I mean docs. All of it. I mean what else do I use? [Christian]:  How does that…how does it help you with your…when you're working through a transaction? Or  staying in touch with clients? Is that just like a reminder? You have on your calendar? [Nathan]:  Yep. I plug all the relevant dates into my calendar. And then I set reminders. And that's what I do. And that works for me.  [Christian]:  Well if it works… [Nathan]:  Luckily…luckily for us here in Ohio, contracts aren't that difficult. You know, the timelines they're not…it's not rocket science, you know. So… [Chris]:  Yeah I've seen your listing agreement. It's two pages. [Nathan]:  Yeah it's…it's not… [Chris]:  Tiny. [Nathan]:  It's not…it's not complex. So again if you can like…if I go in here, I mean I know when all my stuff's happening because I just put my reminders in there. Make sure you don't have your reminders set ten minutes before. You know, I know people like come in and say “I had it set but then it reminded me 10 minutes before it was due.” I'm like “Yeah you might want to do it a couple days out there.” But… [Chris]:  Maybe. I don't know.  [Nathan]:  There are plenty of CRMs that integrate with Google. I just don't use one. So just me. But again what I do is way different than a lot of people. [Chris]:  Yeah so I do want to talk a little bit more about what you do. Because some of the things that you're doing are very similar to what Client Giant does. [Nathan]:  Yeah. [Chris]:  So instead of using Client Giant, you're actually putting in the legwork to make the client experience special. And…and memorable. So what are you doing in some of your transactions now Nate? [Nathan]:  So I…I mean I stole a lot of J's stuff if you would. Best ideas are stolen. Right? But from having carpets clean, homes clean, cars clean, boxes delivered. There's all kind of different things. It's what I like the ability to do is tailor each one of those to each individual. I don't want it to be every client gets this and every client gets that. Because we all know that every transaction is different and so there may be some concessions I make. I may do something different. Right. I give up part of my commission sometimes to bridge a gap. Right. Does that suffice?  [Chris]:  Good agents do that. [Nathan]:  Right. Does that suffice? Doing something above and beyond for your client? Yeah I think it does. So each one's different but I like to do something that it's just a personal touch. Again we've talked about it before that, you know, you're…you're marketed or branded candle that I really don't like, I don't want in my house anyway. So or you just got paid 10 grand and you bought me a $20 bottle of wine is kind of the biggest f you I think in the world. So again I literally, you know, like I said with the cleaning company I contract with that does house cleaning, carpet cleaning, all that. When I met him I did exactly what Jay said. I said “Hey I have an opportunity for you. If you can do this for me. Give me a better rate and I'll give you business.”  Works out great. I just had an agent the other day she said “Hey who's that guy you use?” He calls me and he's like “Dude thanks so much.” It's been a…it's been a great relationship. But again it's each…each one's different. But like I said a lot of what Jay does. I'll have your carpets cleaned. I'll have your house cleaned. Post…post-closing or before, you know. Just each one's different but I think those things are the value that we need to deliver. I'm helping somebody move. So, you know, it's a… [Christian]:  OK some legwork in there.   [Nathan]:  Yeah you need your house power-washed. Fine so be it. There's different things you can do that I think are way better than a bottle of wine and a candle.  [Christian]:  Yeah well good on you for flushing that out yourself. Like I know initially when I heard Jay's presentation, the setup a 5 star service in a 3 star industry I was like “That's…that's the missing piece”. You know, and I started, you know, flushing out “OK how can I build this out myself?” And then like a month later you came up with Client Giant because, you know, there's so many people in the industry that are…want to do that but I mean that's a big administrative overhead, if you're gonna do that for entire, you know, for your clients or let alone for the entire brokerage, you know. But good on you for doing that. But as a point of clarification, the Client Giant stuff is customizable. So it's not like every…every package is the same. So you do have that option. [Nathan]:  So then let's just check that box where it says I'm a control freak. So… [Chris]:  We didn't know.  [Nathan]:  No I had a client. The one that I told you about in the last episode with the, you know, that I told her that her paint was F-ing ugly with the wallpaper. [Chris]:  Yeah. Like “What do you think of this room?” “I think it's [censored] ugly.” [Nathan]:  Yes so I called one of the companies I contract with. Final Touch Painting here. And had him out. We needed to do some painting. And what the bathroom that had the wallpaper and of course I said “Well this is all gotta go” And she's like “What color should I choose? And I looked at her and I said “Jane what do you mean?” She says “What color should I choose?” I said “You don't get to choose.” She said “Why not?” I said “You're selling the house. It's not yours anymore.” She goes “Are you gonna let me make any decisions?” And I said “No I'm not.” She goes “OK”. [laughter]. And might you, my broker is with me on this appointment and he's like “How do you get away with that stuff?” I am like “I don't know”. But, you know, again it's…it was great. I loved it and, you know, she wants to be…I don't, you know, she wants to be told what to do to get her house sold. I think people appreciate that. [Chris]:  I think a lot of…in those interactions I think a lot of agents are afraid of making the wrong decision so they don't make decisions at all. And I think that's part of the reason why a lot of people don't see value in real estate agents. Because they feel like “Oh this person is just gonna be a yes person. This person…what am I paying them for? Walk me through a contract when they're just gonna ask me what I want in the contract?” You know, don't be afraid to grow some. And, you know, actually have a conversation where you're taking the lead and walking your clients through it. Because it's part of being memorable.  [Nathan]:  And being a professional.  [Chris]:  Definitely part of being a professional. Definitely part of being memorable. And if you're doing a good job then guess what? It's a lot easier to keep that relationship alive post-closing. [Christian]:  Yeah. If you're just an order taker I mean it's gonna be harder to justify, you know, the…some of…some of the rates that are common for agents. You know.  [Chris]:  Yeah. You go to a great restaurant you're not telling the chef what to cook. [Nathan]:  Exactly.  [Chris]:  Alright I think...I think that just about does it for this week's episode of re:Think Real Estate. Thank you all so much for tuning in. Again please don't forget go to our rtrepodcast.com. Sign up for the newsletter so you don't miss a beat when we drop a new episode.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode This week we discuss how to keep a real estate transaction moving forward. Listen in to hear ways to keep a real estate transaction on track to closing. Rethink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 30:43 RTRE 57 –  Keeping the Real Estate Transaction Under Control [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. We're so happy to have you here this week. We've got Nate back. He is not selling homes right now. We've got Christian here and as always here to talk real estate and all thing real estate related. So just before getting started we were talking about how agents can control the transaction better and make deals go smoothly for our clients. Nate you are always taking listings. What are some things that you are doing to make sure that you are on top of the transaction? [Nathan]: Well again I was start thinking about this a little bit more before we got to recording here but I…again I think you as an individual…we all have different types of personalities but it also setting an expectation to our client. Right. Whether you are the list side or the buy side but you have to set that tone up front.  I am a little bit of a controller. Actually a lot but I like to control the situation. You have to have confidence and knowledge in what you're doing to do all that but that is the way I operate. Most of my clients appreciate that. And the reason I brought this us is because I have got a buddy I met the other day. He is a lender and another lender he knew was taking a beating because unfortunately buyers are liars and this buyers agent is calling and is literally in Ethany [phonetics] and all over the phone. And you know at a certain point you gotta tell a client you know whether you're the agent or you are the agent or the client and your client is the buyer or lister, you gotta have control over the certain things you can't do.  For that lender the agent was his client, I would have fired him. I wouldn't have taken that you know, it is just the way it goes. Same thing, I don't tolerate certain things from my clients. I mean we call it respect. You know a lot of people like to whine in our business but it is OK to lose a client. It is OK not to get every client. And I think we often forget that. It is kind of one of that win at all cost mentality maybe. I don't like that. [Chris]: And I think if you are winning at all cost you are not factoring in what makes this industry fun, it is being able to enjoy it. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: So obviously yeah I mean I feel like you are at the point in your career where yeah you can choose and have the option to fire your clients. But why was it…why do you think it got to that point in the transaction where the agent was calling and cursing at the lender? [Nathan]: Again, you know, I have said this before in our podcast. We want to be emotional. And I have always…I think the best thing I was ever taught when I got in this industry is to take my emotion out of it. [Chris]: Amen to that. [Nathan]: We realtors…You know I am gonna beat us up but as I have said the large majority we just love to feel so important, right? We love to know that “Hey look at me, hey look at me. I am an awesome, awesome relator. I am an awesome realtor”. Like… [Chris]: “Let me tell you about me. Let me tell you about me. It is all about me. Really what do you think about me”.  [Nathan]: Yeah. And so take the emotion out of it. You know, I don't know. [Christian]: Why do you…why do you suppose…I mean I have my thoughts on this. Why do you suppose he thought it was acceptable and call the lender and cuss him out and get all emotional about it? [Nathan]: Well the guy is an [censored] [laughter]. If he were listening, that is what I would tell him. Right.  [Christian]: OK.  [Nathan]: Bottom line is whether we are in realty or not you don't treat other people that way. Like you know… [Christian]: Why… [Nathan]: Yeah why did he treat somebody that way? Probably because he had really bad parents I don't know. [laughter]. [Christian]: Yeah I mean… [Chris]: A lot of people don't think about other people as actual beings. Human. I think that si the problem. [Christian]: I mean and I am on that. Obviously treat people as humans. Treat them with respect. But you know when it comes to like being professional in this industry I mean there is a lot of things that I like to push back on in industry like you know our job is to be the rock when our clients are emotional and deals you know on the brink of falling apart. I mean if we get emotional I mean I don't know any of you…I mean I know you guys have kids. I know that when I am near my kid's emotions and he is getting all ramped up and I am ramped up, that doesn't help. [Chris]: That makes it worse. [Christian]: Worse. But I mean if I can be a consistent calm and I am able to bring it back down to like “OK let's look at the reality of things if you know…” But I think a lot of agents kind of lose their cool because they think “I am advocating for my client. I am passionate when I am doing my job”. No no you are just being a [censored] and you are [censored] things up for your client.  [Nathan]: Yeah well said. [Chris]: So that gets to a great point on helping to control the conversation to control the transaction. Is controlling emotion. [Christian]: Definitely. [Chris]: Because if we can control our emotion and understand that when we are interacting with a client it is a very…they are in a heightened state of emotion. Right. Buying a…Buying a real estate parcel, right a house or a commercial or whatever it is, is extremely stressful for people because they have a lot invested in it. It is a lot of money. It is a big transaction.  So if something bad happens they are gonna think it is the worst thing in the world even if it is just you know a small hiccup. If something miniscule like good happens they are gonna think it is the best thing in the world. So if we can just kind of maintain a level of neither good nor bad on the emotional scale than holy hell like that really can do exactly what it does for your kid Christian. It is just like calm. When something bad goes on don't worry. Got it under control.  [Nathan]: I…you know I wasn't here the last episode we recorded because I had a deal going sideways. Even my client's father flew in from Boston. He was… [Chris]: To help the deal or to ruin the deal.  [Nathan]: Well at first I thought was honestly he was gonna ruin it. He was very emotional. It was his son's house. It is you know a lot of things going sideways on this.  [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: And you know he called me “What are we gonna do?”. And now we're just [inaudible] we're great. We're good buddies now. But I said “We're gonna work the problem.” “What do you mean?” I said “We're gonna work the problem. Work the problem”. I mean we get…this is 3 days of craziness in my life here recently. And he called me and said “Man I gotta tell you kept your cool.” Yeah I did because me getting upset is exactly what Christian said. It is just gonna make everybody else upset.  .So I am..I am like the captain of the ship right. If I am freaking out everybody else is freaking out. I am you know…It was not fun. But we got through it. And now here is a gentleman that like he is my biggest advocate that I could possibly have now. But I think if I would have reacted the way he was initially reacting it was gonna be really, really bad 3 days for me. And it turned out an Ok 3 days, you know what I mean. [Chris]: Yeah you gotta control that. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: That is definitely one thing that agents can do in a transaction to kind of control the tone, control the pace. It is just control our own emotions because whether you want to believe it or not people are gonna mimic you. That is just how it happens. So obviously in the deal that you mentioned Nate the agent got upset with the lender. Obviously something at some point was not communicated clearly. Because if the lender had all the information and the agent had all the information and the buyer was given all the information than usually…I don't see a circumstance where somebody is gonna yell at somebody. Christian… [Christian]: It sounds like there is an unmet expectation there. I don't know. [Chris]: Yeah it sounds like it. So Christian when you are working with a buyer and you've got all these different wheels that are moving more so than with the seller, what are some things that you are doing to set expectation with people? [Christian]: Yeah I mean I say setting expectations specifically but communication in general that is probably the most important thing you can do as a real estate agent. [Chris]: I agree. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Christian]: Because you can be a terrible agent and totally incompetent but if you can communicate well you look like you're doing your job. You know now whether or not you do the back end and actually have knowledge and stuff that is all a different thing but you can be a rock star agent and know exactly what you're going but if your communication sucks your agent is gonna think you suck. [Chris]: It is like you're up on a show. You've got the curtain right and the clients are seeing what is in front not what is behind. [Christian]: right. And so that is a long answer to basically say I am mister kind of control freak I have got processes for everything. And part of the process is this template email as part of my CRM and first thing we do “Hey we are under contract. OK here is the 5 things you are gonna expect, here is what comes next, here is what we're gonna be doing for you in the next 3 days. Here is what you are gonna be doing”. You know. And after we get past our expectance commencing here is what it is gonna look like.  You know now that is not the only communication but that is like it sets the expectations up front you know because you get a contract and now there is a whole bunch of stuff going on and now they're stressing out. You know I can't be on the phone with them every 10 minutes you know and call them off the ledge. But if you set these expectations and say “This is what happens and this is what we're doing.” And you know checking in with them whenever there is a new bench mark. That has a calming effect you know on them as opposed to they don't hear anything. [Nathan]: Oh yeah you don't have to do a lot. I mean I send out Friday updates. That is what I call it. Friday updates. Every Friday I touch my clients no matter where we are. Just to give them something right. But I mean Christian you hit…all your points were spot on. Maybe you should just have the Christian Harris school of mentoring real estate agents [laughter]. All people can learn from that. [Chris]: Definitely. [Nathan]: You know communication is key. So…I am with you on that one. I am seeing great agents who know everything very well but they are horrible communicators. [Christian]: And to your point Nathan I mean, part of that communication is even if nothing is going on once a week touching in. I do my touching on Monday because typically like if you are working on a listing that is when it is going to be the most information that we can pass. So I do my updates on Mondays. The point is going on “Hey there is nothing going on and I just want you to know so that you are not wondering what is going on”.   [Chris]: Yeah for both of you to reach out and tell somebody nothing has changed, is one of the key differentiators that I have seen for people who are successful  and who are not. Because if you are having that communication level when nothing is happening they know “Oh OK nothing is happening but I am not hearing silence”. Because it is when the seller or the buyer, they hear silence that is when they get in their own head. And they start thinking “Well is this agent really doing things in my best interest. Are they really working on my behalf”. [Christian]: You have to interfere with the doubt and the emotions kind of you know. [Chris]: It comes in the silence. Exactly. Awesome so we're getting about halfway through the episode right now. I want to…we are trying out a new segment called re:Think Realty bonus thoughts where we have a topic to discuss that none of us have seen before. We're just pulling it out of an envelope. So this one is “Things seen in houses.” I am really not sure. I guess we're just supposed to talk about things that we have seen in houses. Things like “Where is Waldo”. Print frames. Eye level in the bathroom. Things like that. Blurred out dog face on a listing photo. [Christian]: So like funny or unique things that we have seen? Is that like… [Chris]: Yeah what are some unique things that you have seen in homes that you have listed? [Christian]: I have seen atrocious staging and unfortunately it was one of my first listings when I was trying out a stager so… [Chris]: Was it really? [Christian]: I had to fire that stager and the stager I use now was the person that came in like 2 days noticed and saved the day. But yeah I have seen that. I have noticed that you want to make sure you have a local stager. Here in Seattle we've got a couple of…Well we've got a lot of island like 107 islands. And one of the…I had a friend who had a mom who does staging so I gave her a hot but she was from one of the islands and she came over and did it and her idea of staging was weaker in floral prints. And it made it look like a grandma's house and it was not gonna fly in Seattle. [Chris]: Wow. [Christian]: That is unfortunately that was kind of my fault but that was something I have seen that was atrocious and made sure it didn't get to the listing photos and that was a learning experience. [crosstalk]. I am sorry? [Chris]: What do you got Nate? What is something you have seen in a house? [Nathan]: Guns. [laughter] [Christian]: Alright. [Nathan]: No, yeah I mean like literally guns just laying out around the house. [Chris]: Oh yeah I have seen that. [Nathan]: Like hand guns and rifles. And magazines in the club. I love guns don't get me wrong but I have got clients who have a kid with me and I am like “Holy snap” like you know what's going on. Like… [Christian]: That is a different world in Ohio I guess. [Chris]: It is not just Ohio we've got that in Georgia too. I have walked through homes and opened up a closet and boom there is a shotgun just sitting right there.  [Nathan]: That is…the oddest…[crosstalk] [Chris]: Yeah so one of the oddest things that I have ever seen in a home is in a basement they…put in multiple urinals in a restroom.  [Christian]: Like a restroom? [Chris]: Like a bathroom but then they…When they finished the basement they made it like a big bathroom with like 3 urinals but no divider. Really, really weird I have no idea why. [Christian]: Were they having like a fight club in the basement?  [Chris]: Yeah yeah it was really weird. I ended up not getting that listing. Because I don't think he liked what I said about marketing that. [Nathan]: Have you guys ever been in a home where they have pad locks on all the doors on the exterior like on a bedroom? [Chris]: I have seen that one. [Christian]: That is creepy as hell.  [Nathan]: I saw that a few weeks ago and I was like “That is really weird”.  [Chris]: Yeah.  [Christian]: I wouldn't want to know what they do. [Chris]: You are either doing some child abuse there or you just got a lot of guns in that room. [Christian]: It's sketchy. [Chris]: Whatever it is. Yeah it is in the living room [laughter]. “You are not getting into my living room. This is mine”. It could be like one of those…Did you all see the listing that it was making the rounds on a few weeks ago, the sex dungeon in the basement? [Nathan]: Awesome. [Chris]: Yeah I mean just things like that.  [Christian]: Yeah like the brokerage had some pretty fun stuff, the lighter side of real estate had some pretty funny things like that.  [Chris]: Yeah definitely the things that they come up with that is absolute hilarity. I can't believe that you know when Kellen [phonetics] when he did his deal to our show got picked up by lighter Real Estate. It was… [Christian]: That was awesome. [Chris]: It was in one of the shows. OK so yeah re:Think Real Estate bonus thoughts. Giving it a shot. Tell us what you think. Make sure you leave us a review on iTunes for anybody listening. I…shoot us a comment either on our Facebook page or on the website on rtrepodcast.com.  So back to today's topic which was the agent's control of the transaction. Where they can make a big impact. Nate what is one of the most impactful things that you find you are able to do for your clients outside of communication and setting expectations? [Nathan]: I don't know. This…I mean it sounds weird but just being upfront and honest. I feel like…I feel like there are so many agents that just are not forthcoming. Do you know what I mean? [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: Again it is the win at all cost or lie at all cost just to get the listing. I mean I just went on a listing in an apartment a couple of weeks ago and she walked me up in the room and she said “Nate what do you think about this room”. I started to laugh and she said “What is funny?” And I said “This is a [censored] ugly room”.  And that is all [laughter] I said all these things in here and in the bathroom too and she starts laughing and I say “What is so funny Jane?” And she says “I have had 3 other agents in here and none of them have had the balls to tell me what I already knew.” [laughter]. She said “I love that you already told me that it is ugly”. She said “I know it is ugly but everybody else says this is gorgeous, this is lovely, we will do this to make it look like this”. She is like “It is an ugly room. Why won't somebody just tell me the truth?” And I told her the truth and guess who got the listing?  [Chris]: There you go. There you go. [Nathan]: Tell the truth. If they don't like the truth than they will hire somebody else that will tell them whatever lie they want to hear. [Chris]: And if you feel like you're not up to telling somebody “This is a [censored] ugly room”. You don't have to say it like that.  [Christian]: You can be more diplomatic to be honest. [Chris]: Yeah be more diplomatic. [Christian]: That is not Nate's style. [Nathan]: That is not my style lets be honest. [Chris]: Just so that our audience knows. You don't have to do it Nate's way. You can tell somebody “No this room may not be up to the aesthetics as the rest of the house. We probably won't focus our marketing efforts on this room”. [Christian]: Or “You can burn this room down”. Or something like that. [Chris]: Yeah. Or “We could put up some fumigation label outside so nobody comes in”. Whatever it may be, but yeah on that line with honestly I think one thing agents have sometimes gotten self-caught up in is when they find something that they don't know they will try and [censored] their way out of it. Instead of saying “I don't know, let me get you the answer. We will make sure that we do this the right way”.  And people feel like you know winning at all cost they want to feel like the expert they always want to be in the expert shoes, they don't want to step back and admit you know, “There might be something I don't know here”. You know that is kind of one thing that I think goes a long way in controlling the transaction is don't be afraid to admit where there is something that you haven't dealt with. That is why it is important to have a good team unless you are Nate. In which case you are solo.  But if you've got a good team or resources or you know even friends and people that you respect in the industry and people that you can reach out to as long as they're you know you are following your broker's direction, you are making sure that everything is legal and ethical. I don't think we have to cover that at this stage in the game.  But yeah just making sure that where your shortcoming are you are not [censored] through them. Christian what do you think are some things that you now can help control the situation a little bit more throughout the transaction especially due diligence, getting into financing and getting up to the posing table? [Christian]: Sure so I mean there is obviously like a minimum standard of what an agent has to do. I am more like how much can I do to help an agent. You know. So for us you know I mean like we all know that is…you know good buyers. You know it is the buyers responsibility as part of their…you know once they get a contract and they're talking to a lender and get all the documents they need and stuff. They need to reach to interns company and get a policy in place and that kind of stuff.  But like that is not really on our shoulders but I still make it a point to you know a day or 2 after to send out an email and say “Hey this is a reminder, these is the things that you need to do. Make sure you get your lenders documents at town manor, make sure you get a quote on home insurance because they can't hold an appraisal before you do”. You know just stuff that is not necessarily in my ball part but it helps them know that, like “These are things that you need to do as part of the process”.  [Chris]: Yeah and going an extra mile is huge. We've got a lot of good feedback ever since we started implementing move easy, which ties into our transaction management system. So move easy when our agents mark that their client is under contract they get this digital check list and resource bank that tells them everything that they need to do during the move from “Don't forget to order your moving supplies, don't forget to line up your child care, you're getting all your pet immunizations” whatever it might be. We put all of it in a checklist and our agents…our clients seem to love it. For those that take advantage of it. [Christian]: And that as I recall it is free for agents right? [Chris]: Well it has to be set up on a brokerage level but yes it is free. [Christian]: So talk to your broker about setting it up for you. Or if you do something like client giant you know per agent they do kind of that concierge. They take care of all your utilities and that is helpful too. [Chris]: That's awesome yeah. And that was Jay O'Brien [phonetics] we had him on last year. Definitely a great episode to go and listen to about providing what was it 7 start service in a 3 start industry? [Christian]: Yes. 5 start service and 3 star…7 start... [Nathan]: 7 star… [Chris]: 7 star in a 3 star. [Christian]: It's a good… [Chris]: Yeah it's a good one. He's a really good person to listen to as well.  [Christian]: Yeah for the service yeah.  [Chris]: Yeah I mean there is so many things that we can do to go above and beyond. You know in Georgia the typical transaction is byer gets contract. Contract gets due diligence. Due diligence gets home inspection. After home inspection there is no other inspection done. They may be right on. I have never seen anybody do a lot of base paint test. They just kind of waive that and you know that is it.  But there is so many other things that we can do. We can advise for air quality testing if there are allergies present which that I have seen happen. Partnering them with an insurance agent to make sure that the home is insurable and check for what the previous claims are. Like getting a clue report pulled. All of these things are huge and can make a big impact in not only your client experience but also controlling the situation, making sure that things are discovered before we get too far. So that at the last minute when we get to the closing table things are reared in their ugly head.  [Christian]: So speaking of kind of above and beyond just us doing our jobs for our clients, I mean what are you guys thoughts about health warranties? Typically I have written those off because they are so limited typically. As far as what they replace in the time frame. But like recently I helped a friend of mine buy a house kind of outside of my normal area a little farther outside in Takoma. And the recommended inspector from some of my you know, agent friends down there, they actually include a very inclusive home warranty that I was very impressed with.  And no extra charge you know like because they already did the inspection on the roof so they guarantee the roof is gonna hold for 5 years and appliances for this long and you know all these extra stuff that seems like a real value add for no additional money either to your pocket or out of their pocket. But what are you guys thoughts on hat? [Nathan]: I mean here in Ohio it is long. A seller typically pays for home warranty. I like them but I like to choose it because there are certain home warranties that have what they are called caps or limitations on what they will cover. And if you know those I don't think that is a good value. The ones that I typically go with on home warranty has no caps. The other side of it form a listing side is they have seller protection from the moment we put that house on the market, the items are covered in warranty. But I think you have to articulate to your client that a home warranty is good for your major stuff. [Chris]: Yeah sure. [Nathan]: Your HVAC furnace. [Chris]: Sometimes. [Nathan]: Yeah well OK again here they're smart like don't go and have a home warranty claim when you had an inspection that said it was bad right. That is not the way to do it so… [Chris]: And on top of that if you have a 25 year old HVAC system it is not gonna pay for a brand new system if it [censored] out. It will have a maximum amount that it will pay towards but on a 25 year old system it is gonna not cover that switch over from you know what was it our 20 to now 4 10A or whatever the new coolant is. So you got explain that to your clients.  Again back to what Nate was saying. Expectation setting. Back to what Christian was saying. Expectation setting. Making sure that everybody understands where the value is when they get it. [Christian]: So what you're saying is that home warranty can be of value just make sure you do your research that is actually a quality home warranty that provides something. [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: 100%. [Chris]: On the first home that my wife and I ever purchased, 3 months in the stove shorted out. It came out 50 dollar call, rewired the entire thing and it worked fine. It is still in that home. But that was a lot less than it would have been you know to have you know a new stove or bring out an electrician so it has its values. [Nathan]: Yeah yeah, I just had to call a client and we were 2 days outside of closing an she was the seller and the hot water tank failed. We had seller protection on it. Guess what 65 dollar call, brand new hot water tank. [Chris]: There you go. [Christian]: Save your 500 dollars. [Nathan]: Saved probably more than that and you know she was already stressed out and called the client. I said “Let's have home warranty take care of that”. Again if you know what you're getting can be a great value. But… [Chris]: Absolutely.  [Nathan]: There are a lot of junk ones. [Chris]: And all of this…yeah all of this goes in line with taking control of the transaction and making sure that we are directing it in a way to get it to the closing table and we are directing it in a way that is in our client's best interest.  [Christian]: Yeah and speaking of staying in control of that transaction one of the things that I see…I moved to a whole other topic on this whole episode, but is that you know what do you do to continue to provide value and stay in front of your clients after closed? Or what the agent is gonna feel at that? [Nathan]: That is a whole episode.  [Chris]: Yeah that is a whole episode. Why don't we get into that next week [laughter]?  [Christian]: OK well I will give a little teaser than. [Chris]: Let's give a teaser and we will get into it next week.  [Christian]: What we started to do is a sort of called home button and that has been great because it is cheap. Right now it is only 25 dollars. You know, to use it and you get it for 500 clients. But basically it provides every month to your home buyer, it provides them with an automated like “Here is what your home is worth and if you refine,  this is what it would look like, if you are AIRBNBed one of your rooms this is the value if you added 300 dollars a month extra payment you know you would pay this much less over the course of yadayada”. So basically provides all these really easy to understand analytics for a client's house that is branded to you.  [Chris]: Awesome.  [Christian]: And instead of you know you sending out some junk email drip thing every month where they probably don't even look at, here is something that directly relates to their house that they're probably gonna look at it. And you can see all the analytics and back end when they're click on it. [Chris]: Thanks for tuning into re:Think Real Estate. Make sure you join us next week as we talk about how to provide value post-closing and control that relationship into the future. Christian you gave a great teaser on that. For anybody who hasn't please go to rtrepodcast.com. Sign up for the newsletter so you never miss when we drop an episode and leave us a 5-star review on iTunes. Have a great day everyone.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode In today's episode Chris and Christian briefly discuss their thoughts on home automation and smart technology. Let us know what smart technology you prefer in the comments! Rethink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 13:51 RTRE 56 –  Where's Tech Going? [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Christian Harris. My man Nate is again out selling homes so he can't be with us here today. But we do want to make sure you're here with us getting the re:Think Real Estate treatment every Monday. So thanks for tuning in. Christian what is going on my man? [Christian]: Hi, I was just thinking about the future of the business and stuff and things and… [Chris]: Yeah what do you think… [Christian]: Things I am not doing because… [Chris]: What do you think it will be like in the future? Take a wild guess. [Christian]: Well I mean I spend a lot of time thinking about marketing, positioning that kind of stuff. [Chris]: OK. [Christian]: You know about 10 years ago podcasting was the new rage. You know it seems like real estate is finally as an industry is catching on to maybe podcasting as a viable medium. We have… [Chris]: Viable I don't know. It is a medium.  [Christian]: Viable like I mean the interwebs [phonetics]. It is not going anywhere. It might be here to stay. [Chris]: Yeah it is here to stay. [Christian]: Yeah you know I have been doing my own podcast for almost 3 years now and I felt like when I started that I was kind of like behind the curb. But I was just kind of thinking you know kind of the newer trends, and I think that there is a big…there is gonna a big push maybe or you know the masses are gonna start adopting kind of the smart homes stuff as opposed to just…I think previously it has been just kind of the more tech savvy people coming out of the fringes.  But I think with Alexa and Echos and Google homes and stuff become more popular as I think that audio content is gonna start becoming you know audio first content is gonna start becoming huge you know. I mean video is just so great but the problem with videos is you've gotta be dedicated to watching that video. And it is the only thing you can do. While audio podcasts are all flash briefing all that stuff that you can be doing something else. You could be driving a car or in your home you can be working. So I think it can be more…as our attention it continues to be demanded in multiple directions so it is gonna be more of a push in adoption for audio first stuff. [Chris]: Like audiobooks right?  [Christian]: What is that? [Chris]: It is like audio books. You just…The way our cars work now with the Bluetooth the moment you get out of the car it pauses, when you get back into the car it keeps going. You know, and you can be driving down the road of in your office and it just the continuity it stops and goes and keeps going and you are able to just load more content while you are doing other thing.  [Christian]: Yeap, exactly you know I was thinking about how this relate to real estate. You know how with the help of an agent or brokerage. And I think it is you know it could be another piece of the content marketing, positioning piece. You know, for me I have been thinking like OK you know I want to start like an Alexa flash briefing, right.  You know those are basically mini 1 to 2 minute…think of them as mini podcast and so you know if you have Alexa at home or Echo you could say…you could enable these skills and say you know, “Alexa play…play my flash briefings for the day”. And what would be a set up 1 minute Gary V sample and then you know social marketing with Chelsey Pites [phonetics] you know or whoever you subscribe to it will give you the little 1 minute blur you know. And the thing that is different about them is that you can't go back. It is kind of like it is today and that is it.  [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: So it is very try and forget but I am thinking like if this starts becoming the norm, the thing, you know if people start going to their Alexa for “Hey Alexa what is the weather, what is the traffic, what is the housing market doing?”. You know like there is gonna be more and more skills built out you know by brokerages, by industry leaders, by marketers you know, all that kind of stuff.  So how can you get in front of that? Because right now there is not very much in the real estate space. You know the couple I know about gear towards the real estate agents, geared towards the industry not towards consumers. So what would that look like? You know. [Chris]: So I am not too familiar with like Alexa and Google Home. And all that because frankly I don't want anybody listening to me and I don't need more tech for my kids to interact with right now. [Christian]: But they are already listening. [Chris]: I know I know. [Christian]: Here. Everything [laughter]. [Chris]: Yeah well so probably. But…so we haven't gone on board with the smart home yet. Our home is dump. It was built in the 70s. It is as dump as dump can be. But I did see an article the other day about some technology that is gonna become an outleap next year. OK so mid to late 2020 and we have a ton of cool things on the horizon.  So, Apple is gonna come out with their glasses. And I saw a report on this. And the things are super lightweight and I can just imagine right in 5 or 10 years you are driving down the street or you are in a showing, and you've got your real estate app on your phone and as you walk through the house it is giving you all the details about every room. It is giving you all the updates. You are driving down the street and there is a house for sale and just in your glasses, on your display it is telling you all the price, the bath and bed features, you know.  That is gonna be the world that we live in in a few years. It's…we're not far away from it and you know technology is exponentially increasing. That is not slowing down anytime soon. So like it's gonna be crazy where this all goes. I don't know about Alexa and all that. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: But you're probably right, pretty soon I am sure I will probably have one too.  [Christian]: Yeah well possibly I mean you know, it is hard to tell where the trend is gonna go. Because you know, Google has their glass and that was a major flop. Now maybe it was just ahead of it's time and people weren't ready for it. Maybe it is a platform issue you know, whatever, but yeah we will see. I mean I am definitely seeing the audio…audio first medium catching traction with masses. [Chris]: Good. [Christian]: It is not nearly as rare as the people have you know Google Home or an Echo. [Chris]: Well if you are listening to this episode, tell your friends to listen to this too because podcasts are cool y'all. [Christian]: Yeah and so initially…so my journey into the smart homes started with the Google Home. Right. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: Because I think its…we bought a new house and we bought a Nest. And when I bought it had like a have and for 20 bucks you could get to buy a Google Home. You know medium or whatever I am not sure.  [Chris]: Yeah why not. [Christian]: And I was thinking “Hey you know Google versus Amazon of course the Google one is gonna be able to do way more”. But it doesn't. Like it's kind of weak. So…But you know as I experimented with the Alexa app which you can actually download for your phone and essentially you know use the same…the exact same commands and just integrate with your house, I started enabling skills and messing around with that.  And I am like “OK well this is cool”. And so I bought one of the nicer Echos because it has a better speaker because I didn't realize…well the big thing is it is able to like “Hey play jazz music or … you know whatever and it will start playing you know a Spotify channel or you know if it is Google it will play Google play or you know an Echo it will play your Amazon music.  And so you essentially have you know these diverse play list at your fingertips and so I wanted a decent sounding stereo and like the Sonos are actually integrated with the…with the Alexa platform.  [Chris]: The Sonos speaker? [Christian]: Yes. So there are some cool options out there but like that's what we use it for a lot but once you start getting like smart plugs and a Nest of [inaudible] stuff you can set up essentially you know, I don't know, work flows or what do they call it. Something different on the platform. But to say you know, “Alexa good morning and do you have a turn on your lights and start a soft jazz music and turn your heat up” or you know whatever you program it to do. You know. Now we could just make the argument “Hey we are getting lazy”.  But I think the future is going in that direction where I think the people are having to pull out their phones or their watches and like touch the screen is gonna become antiquated and too much of a pain. And they much really just be able to say “Hey do this thing” and have an app launch or have a series of functions happen. So for… [Chris]: Absolutely. [Christian]: So for real estate I think there is some huge, huge… [Chris]: And it is kind of cool. Like “Amazon prepare my house for a showing” and then everything kicks on.. the oil diffuser starts making it smell like cookies. The lighting dims, the music is playing. Like that would be a pretty cool Alexa app. [Christian]: Well yeah I mean and that is if you have a smart phone. It is easy I mean. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: Set the workflow for this trigger starts playing this music station and let them. I think for real estate you know my point in this is I think it is starting to get beyond novelty to practical and mainstream. And I think the real estates… [Chris]: And it is inexpensive enough to do that now. [Christian]: Right exactly I mean there are nicer…I think the…I think the Echo starts at 40 bucks and the one I have has a decent speaker and it is like 110. You know like you spend hundreds on the Sonos but you know if you want a rocking audio system but…I think for real estate there is opportunities for things like flash briefings and different things that would put you as a leader in technology in providing value and giving up to the community.  You know it is just…And you could repurpose it from a Facebook live or Instagram live. Cut out the audio and there is your daily or weekly briefing or whatever, you know. So there is definitely ways to leverage content you are already creating for these new platforms to continue building your brand.  [Chris]: Sounds good. I will have to get on that Alexa new wagon. I am not there yet. We'll give it time. [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: Well I mean the only thing…[crosstalk]. Unfortunately you know my crystal ball is broken. [Christian]: Yeah is that why you are not rich?  [Chris]: Yeah it is one of those things you know where most predictions never come true but now it is like we are watching this app and… [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: There is definitely something that happens over the next few years. And… [Christian]: Well right and I think the biggest challenge right now with where technology is, is lack of integration. Because you know Google has a proprietor thing. Amazon has theirs you know… [Chris]: They are gonna talk to each other. [Christian]: You know they're different IOT…internet…internet of things. You know I don't think there is a standard protocol so you will have to get stuff that is compatible otherwise you have 2 or  different systems that are smart separately but they don't integrate. Well that is more of a pain than it is worthy. You know. [Chris]: Yeah or you find some manufacturer that makes 2 versions. One that integrates with Alexa and one that integrates with Google. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: Pain in the butt. Well I mean it all makes sense. It is gonna be interesting to where this all goes. But I will be interested to see in a few years if you are not right, and that audio and flash briefings become a more important thing in real estate.  [Christian]: Well I am interested to hear what our listeners think. You know leave comment as in  the future how they are using this kind of leading edge technology whether that is audio or you know VR or AR you know. [Chris]: Absolutely. So please leave a comment. Let us know what you think. Send us a message. Contact us. Hit the form on the website rtrepodcast.com. Christian if you are right on this than maybe in the near future we need to step in some flash briefings together for the re:Think podcast.  [Christian]: Sounds good and you owe me a drink. [Chris]: Argh always. Get yourself over to Georgia and trust me drinks are on the house.  [Christian]: Alright. [Chris]: Alright everybody thank you so much for tuning in. This has been re:Think Real Estate. We'll catch you next week.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

On this weeks episode of reThink Real Estate, we discuss ways to clear your mind and focus on your business. There are hundreds of headlines vying for our attention which serve as little more than a distraction to our businesses. We discuss our thoughts on what to pay attention to and what to ignore so that our businesses don't suffer. Rethink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 14:41 RTRE 55 –  Pay Attention to What Matters in Your Real Estate Business [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris here with Christian. Nate can't join us today. He is too busy selling homes. What is going on Christian? [Christian]: Not much just running into the office after frantically dropping off my son at school and yeah trying to stay cool. What are we gonna talk about today? [Chris]: What is going on in real estate. There is some headlines out on Inman. Open Door picks up another 300 million dollars at a reported 3.8 billion dollar evaluation. Caldwell [phonetics] does some rebranding and agents how to become influencers.  [Christian]: Yeah I was really enjoying the comment section of the Caldwell [phonetics] branding. That is always gold you know seeing what people decide to what hill they decide to dive on [inaudible] [laughter] with rebranding and the broker decided to… [Chris]: Well brokerage that are not at and even agents…Everybody has an opinion and everybody wants to voice their opinion in trivial [censored]. I mean remember with NAR. NAR changed the logo last year. And it threw up such a sting that they changed it back.  [Christian]: Did they change it back? I didn't notice. [Chris]: Oh yeah yeah they…So… [Christian]: 100.000 down the drain. [Chris]: So they did a boxed R. The cube with the R on it. And then it threw such a sting that they got rid of it. They spend like 300 million dollars for some astronomical…  [Christian]: It was like 300.000. [Chris]: Yeah it was a lot of money. [Christian]: That's a lot of money for yeah, changing one R into a different type of R so… [Chris]: Yeah and then everybody hated it so… [Christian]: People do. It's funny as we're kind of going over the headlines of what is happening. What is getting all the buzz in real estate. You brought up a good point that all this stuff probably has nothing to do with my business or your business or any agents actually doing business. It's all distractions and shiny objects.  [Chris]: Yeah I mean for a…it gives people an excuse to not focus on doing what they need to do which is sell real estate. Or train their agents to sell real estate if you're a broker. You know it's like watching the local news right? It takes up a lot of time, but what is the same news every single day? Somebody died, somebody got robbed, something broke in the city and somebody is doing something crazy for consumers.  [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: That is the same news every single day and people spend hours of their day, in the morning and the evening paying attention to that [censored]. [Christian]: Right. Well it is funny too I mean you know kind of running with that example. Because what we're talking about here is information, right? We're talking about our awareness of our world around us or what we considered the world around us. It is interesting if you do a little like kind of historic reading of like how technology changes, how we interact with each other and with technology you know like the value of information has changed from 100 plus years ago where the value was largely isolated to your local community. And it only had value if applied to your life directly. You know if like “What is the rainfall gonna be so I know what my crops are gonna be this year”. That's is what mattered. Nowadays most information is human neutral stories. Which means 99% of it has absolutely no bearing on your life whatsoever. [Chris]: What did…What did Breaderman [phonetics] write about today? And usually when he writes something it is pretty good. But you know like what is Zillow announcing. What evaluation is iBuyers gonna have now? And it all is… [Christian]: Sure in 10 years 60% of the market is gonna be iBuyers. So…That may or may not be true but what to do with my business today you know like some of that stuff can inform but by in large nothing comes of it and it doesn't really affect your stuff. Like you know so the question really becomes why do we get so easily distracted, wrapped around excel about stuff that doesn't help our clients or doesn't get us more business or doesn't grow our brokerage. It is just distractions… [Chris]: People need something to talk about. [Christian]: You mean today. Right. [Chris]: It gives people something to talk about at the water cooler. “Oh what about this? What about that?” But you know what, the water cooler doesn't make you money? Does it?  [Christian]: Yeah but you know it gives you that dopamine to be upset about something. Or enraged about something or worried. [Chris]: It allows people to feel about things that aren't important. [Christian]: Yeah. And I wouldn't say like these things aren't irrelevant. Necessary. But by in large it might affect things years down the road. But again you know it's energy. It's…You know you've got  a limited emotional and mental energy and response so much of it on Facebook or on this you know kind of what's the big distractor and whatever else.  As opposed to building something, doing our business, staying in our lane. Doing our thing. You know like when I was at a larger franchise yeah there is people shuffling around doing transactions but mostly it was people sitting around [censored] about other people's business or “Have you seen what that person is doing or that person is like”. What does that have to do with you? Like mind your own business you know.  [Chris]: “I think our broker is sleeping with the loan officer…[crosstalk]. I think our broker is sleeping with the loan officer”. “Really?” Yeah I mean think like that that those permeate offices and corrupt culture. And you know from a macro level it is important to understand where the industry is going. So that you know how to kind of steer and navigate the industry with your business. But for the most part every other day when you see a new evaluation all you need to know is venture capital funds are putting money at high buyers. That's it.  [Christian]: True. Yeah. Well for the average agent like you know if Compass is growing in a market or Open Door has you know some hundreds of million dollar you know the funding you know round fund how does that affect your business? You know maybe if your brokerage is thinking about the future and how you want to structure your business it could you know just looking at trends but I mean I think a lot of it comes back to you know, we've got limited time and resources. Why are we spending it on these things that don't directly impact us? [Chris]: It's easy. Because it is easy to talk about that. And it is harder to go in and put the work into growing our business and to talk about that. It's not…It's not cool to talk about the work that people don't want to do or that aren't doing. [Christian]: Trust me… [Chris]: And when you're at the water cooler and you're sitting there talking about “Oh I just made this call and that call” and people are like “Eh” and they clam up and they're crossing their arms because they don't talk about that because they're not making their calls. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: They're not out there prospecting. They're not talking about you know, the next best thing in growing their business. For a couple of reasons. So there is the idea of competition selling a lot of offices. They don't come up at their training and their culture from an abundant perspective. They think everybody is competing against one another and therefore they don't share ideas. And then you know the other side of that is they don't know what the [censored] they're doing. So they… [Christian]: I mean I think part of that…That is practically true but I think the other side of it is most agents know what they need to be doing but they're not willing to do it. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: You know and so it comes down to why do so many agents hate being real estate agents [laughter]. You know they're not willing to like do the work. You know and thinking about this from a brokerage perspective, you know like I have had to think about whether the different models we could have. How much do we provide? Do we provide leads? Do we just provide systems? Do we provide nothing? You know and we try to do like this middle road of competitive commission split with the essential tools to help them be successful with serving their clients. [Chris]: Yeah.  [Christian]: But you know than there are some models that like provide you know leads and this and that. You know initially that is like “OK well that would be great if we got to a point when there is like abundance of incoming you know business that we could refer at those leads or whatever”. But at the end of the day if a brokerage is providing all that to their agents than what the hell do you need agents for if they're not…I mean what is their job if they can't even provide their own business? [Chris]: A brokerage at that point becomes a big team.  [Christian]: Right because essentially I mean that is what you're doing if you're providing leads. You're doing everything for that agent. They're just sitting there you know. [Chris]: Wrapped up and happy. [Christian]: Yeah they get it handed to them. It's like I mean the point of brining that up is you know what is the role of an agent if they're not willing to like do anything. If they're not willing to provide their own business, grow their business. Find new clients. You know than there can be a lot of different ways. That's not just I mean your classic cold call meeting. I mean you can do so many different things. But the point of it is you have to be doing certain actions everyday to move that ball forward. [Chris]: Oh yeah.  [Christian]: If they're not sure how to spend their time talking about the thread of Open Door or Compass or the NAR or Lumion [phonetics] Legal Battle or how that may change the industry like yeah that is interesting but it's not gonna help you in your business today, you know.  [Chris]: Definitely. I think that you hit it right on the money. If it is not gonna help you in your business today I don't think you need to be paying that much attention to it. Get back. Put the horse blinders on. Look down. One step in front of the other. And you know what a lot of agents don't do is they don't go out and try new things. They will just sit there and look at what other people are doing but they don't actually go out and try something on their own. [Christian]: Well they'll poop on it. They're gonna be like “Oh that is the stupidest thing ever. Until it starts working and they try to copy it. [Chris]: There was a…there was a video that I saw going around and you know gets mixed reactions. There is an agent. Erica Gotiwolf [phonetics] she did a home tour where her entire body was blurred out and looked like she was naked. I am sure she wasn't but she well picture it was naked doing a naked home tour.  A couple of days having that video out, property is under contract. She has 5 listing appointments and 2 referrals. There was a lot of negative feedback on that video but you know what half of the people really thought she was ballsy for doing it. And she got additional business out of it. You know I shared that example with my agents this morning. And low and behold they you know I think a light clicked and they started realizing you know what not everybody has to love what I am gonna do in order to be successful at this. So… [Christian]: Well and the reality is if you're doing something different or better you're probably getting negative feedback than positive. [Chris]: Definitely. [Christian]: And you just have to…You have to know that the people who you know the haters are people who are gonna be stuck in mud and go and hate anything that is new. Don't worry about them. You know if you're doing you know Sutton you know naked home tours, if the goal is to get more eyes in that listing for your client, that is affective. You know you called the stick or, you know, whatever but it was effective and aligned her wish people who likes the outside of the box marketing ideas so got her more business for her ideal client base. Who cares what people who don't understand that think. [Chris]: Absolutely. So I think the whole point of this episode is don't pay attention to everything that is in the headlines in real estate because it is going to distract you everyday. It's all the same stuff. Somebody has gotten more of an evaluation. Somebody is telling you how you can become an influencer. Somebody is saying that this company did something else. Focus on your business and just the how…if you pay enough attention to the headlines you don't understand where the industry is going. Don't worry about all the shiny objects. [Christian]: I mean at the end of the day I wanna say…You know I don't want to say “Don't pay attention to this stuff” but just be intentional about how much time you're spending. I mean I know like people who are really intentional and really killing it on social media they're not doing it that way because they're on social media all day but they're doing it because “This half hour is dedicated to me building my social media” and they don't touch it the rest of the day. So they're actually productive. Do the same thing with these headlines. “OK here is my half hour to read the most sensational headlines and then move on to my day”.  [Chris]: All right. Thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode of re:Think Real Estate. Stick with us. Go to rtrepodcast.com. Make sure you sign up for our newsletter so you get notified every time a new episode drops. Thank you so much for tuning in and please make sure that you give us a 5-start review on iTunes. We'll catch you next week.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode It's easy to for some agents to get along well with their peers. For others, not so much. Tune in today as we discuss the skills necessary to be a pro that other pros want to be around. Here are the secrets to playing nice in the sandbox. The rules are simple. Play nice in the sand box. Rethink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 31:05 RTRE 36 –  Erica Ramus on Promoting Women Leaders [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hi everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am your host Chris Lazarus here with Nathan White, Christian Harris. Guys how are you? [Christian]: Hey. [Nathan]: Hey, I am fantastic and beautiful. [Chris]: Hey Nate how is that CRM going? [Nathan]: I knew that was coming why didn't I [inaudible] [laughter]. The think about my CRM. I am embarrassed. I swear people it is happening. It is going to get out of my head and… [Christian]: We do know you swear a lot. [Chris]: Yeah you do swear a lot. [Nathan]: Yes I am going like…Man it's gonna be bad. It's gonna be bad in my office. I am gonna have to shut the door. There is going to be a lot of curse words probably. Probably. But you know I drink a lot of caffeine and I swear a lot people, if you don't know. So yeah we're getting there. It is process right. So I should…The episode after this hands down I will give you some feedback. [Chris]: It's OK. We're gonna keep your feet to the fire. [Christian]: Focus that caffeine and rage to getting your CRM up and running. [Chris]: Definitely. So.. [Nathan]: Yeah I am going to. [Chris]: For everybody tuning in if you get a chance, if you haven't already. Go to and check out our website and our new newsletter at rtrepodcast.com. If you go there, you can click on the little box. Type in your name and email address and every week when we launch a new episode you will be notified. So this week we have an amazing guest. Her name is Erica Ramus. She is the broker owner and magic maker at Ramus Realty. Erica welcome. [Erica]: Thanks guys. [Chris]: It's great to have you on. For our agents who are not in your neck of the woods, why don't you tell us a bit about you and your company? [Erica]: Sure. I am the broker of a small independent boutique company in rural Pennsylvania. I run the middle of the North East. And so most of the cities around. I am very, very wear off. And we have less than 10 agents. I have 8 agents and me and an apprentice in the office. And while we are small in boutique we are mighty. So, we have only 8 people in the office but we have 13% market share.  [Chris]: What? [Erica]: Yeah. The largest companies in the area have 15, 20 and 80 agents. And consistently we have…typically we have…I checked yesterday. We have 40 sites pending currently. And the biggest company has 75.  [Chris]: Wow. That is incredible. [Erica]: So highly productive.  [Chris]: Very highly productive. So when we first met it was…You know it feels like this entire podcast is right around the Inman crowd because Erica and I we met out at Inman. Christian was there also when we were doing the…feeding the homeless. Before the conference started and we were at the same panel about being a broker and non-producing.  So you operate your brokerage a little bit different than I do. Which is you know I am the trainer right I don't go and do really anything. I hope people build their own careers. Tell us a little bit about how your office is run. How are…how are you able to obtain 13% market share with only 8 agents under you? [Erica]: I think of my office as running almost like a super team.  [Chris]: OK. [Erica]: So my name is on the door and before I was in real estate I was a magazine publisher. And I had multiple magazines which…one was a local scoop living magazine. So you probably have Atlanta Life or Atlanta Living or Seattle Living. Something like that. [Chris]: Yeah. [Erica]: So I started that and everybody in town knew me. I was the magazine lady. I was selling ads. And hawking my magazine. And than I got into real estate so when I got in I was almost an immediate success because everybody already knew my face. And I used the magazine to my benefit as well. All of my houses of course were advertised in my own magazine. [Chris]: Nice. [Erica]: So it as a great jump-start. But I built a team under me. I very quickly realized that I couldn't service the leads that were coming in. And so than I left to go out on my own. I built a team up of people who just honestly want to be fed. I produce the leads. I state myself as the reign maker ruler. I do all the marketing on the back end. My face is on almost everything.  And when we're agent advertising my name is on the door so I have very strict control over quality. I do all the marketing and produce all the materials myself. The leads come in, the get filtered through the agents and than I am to deal with after  in the background if something goes wrong. But that is my role. I see it as feeding the agents and making sure that everybody is happy and productive.  [Chris]: And recently you were telling me I think a couple of months ago that you started doing a lot more travel recently and talking and really try moving into more a leadership role within the industry right? [Erica]: yep. So I have always written. Obviously magazine writing was my background and blogging. And so I have always written articles and so I am speaking locally. But recently in the past 2, 3 years I started taking up national speaking engagements. I spoke at Better Homes and Gardens about 2 years ago at their last region event. And Inman and National…NAR. And so my inner circuit.  [Chris]: I am impressed.  [Christian]: Awkward pause OK. [Chris]: Awkward pause.  [Christian]: OK. [Chris]: There we go. Alright there we go. So…So you…Inman, Better Homes and Gardens, NAR. Now you're on one of the committees with NAR too right? [Erica]: Yep. Next year I am on the research and development committee. This past 2 years I have been on the housing opportunity committee. I have dome some professional development so… [Chris]: That's fantastic. So the reason I am bringing this up is because there has been a lot of talk. And a lot of focus on women leaders within our industry. Because let's face it, Christian, Nate and I are the majority. I am sorry we're the minority in real estate. This industry is almost 60% female and the leadership is skewed the other direction.  So tell us what it is like to be not only a broker owner as a female because that is something we will never know but also to be putting yourself out there in the leadership role as a speaker and travelling across the US to talk about helping other women to step into a leadership role and grow their business also. [Erica]: That is something I have always been passionate about, it is owning my own business. I started my own businesses from scratch. When I was in my early 20s. And it was the magazine business. I was not content about just being the editor or publisher. I wanted to own the magazine. And I did. So I have always been an entrepreneur.  And once I started in real estate I knew very quickly I either wanted an ownership role in my company or I was gonna start my own. So to me it was never a question of why would I try or why would I do it. I question all the time why ever women don't step out into leadership roles. And why they don't start their own brokerages. A lot of women seem to express that they're unhappy where they are. And they search for other brokers. When I was unhappy I just started my own company.  So…But I think it is something that is inside of you. It is innate. And a lot of women I believe are afraid to take the chance. It was a huge risk when I went out on my own and I had a young son and my husband but who totally supports me and everything I do. All my crazy ideas. But you know why don't women say “I want to make a change”? And instead of jumping from broker to broker “I want t start my own company” or “I want to be a manager in the firm”.  But almost all the managers and owners in my area they're all men. So…Local especially when the kids are young and if you have children you can relate. I know you have children and I know Christian and Chris you both have young children. But I didn't have a husband at home taking care of the kids. And he works too so that was challenge and that is probably why I didn't travel and didn't do a lot of speaking. Occasionally I would travel but I didn't do the NAR stuff. I didn't do the contract until the kids were out of the house and it was much easier. Now I just have to worry about the dog. [Christian]: So Erica being the reign maker at your office you mentioned kind of matching leads and giving hose out and kind of working all the back end stuff and being very involved with the transactions. What is your means of acquiring that new business. Do you kind of do the traditional you buy them or are you just a known entity that you actually got a lot of community coming to you? When they have real estate needs? [Erica]: WE do both because while I certainly have enough organic coming into the site…The site is…I don't know 15 years old basically. We get great Google traffic on our own but we also do buy some leads. So specifically we have about 35% of our closing will be repeat referral business. Out at a given point and the remainder are just walk-in office street. We have a very prominent location on a busy highway corner. And we also have a little bit of Zillow paid. Not much. We actually cut that back significantly. But Zillow pushes a lot of Facebook ads. And we get great leads just from Facebook and also some Google paid.  [Chris]: Has there ever been anything that has happened to you that you think would discourage another woman agent from becoming their own business owner or stepping up into a leadership role either on NAR or on a national speaking arrangement? [Erica]: I think there still is a disconnect between strong women and the belief that strong women versus a strong man in negotiating or even running a company, the woman is not necessarily respected as much as the man. I just…I still see that. And I believe that a man who is negotiating a problem on a deal who is a broker and if he is perceived as being strong is not necessarily being perceived as difficult. He is just being a strong businessman and negotiating or advocating for his client.  Whereas women when we step up to the table and argue on behalf of our client or try to push something through that is strong in our belief we're seen in a negative light as opposed to a positive right. And I haven't necessarily seen this happen on a national level. Every meeting and committee that I have been involved with in the state national has been very respectful. But I see it locally. Most of the brokers around me are all men The managers are men and there is definitely still the stigma against the strong women.  [Chris]: In your office what is the breakdown on demographic, men versus women that are working with you? [Erica]: I have one fantastic man [laughter]. [Chris]: One fantastic man so you have 7 agents working for you that are… [Erica]: All women.  [Chris]: All female. So…Christian and I are running our own office. We each have our own company and obviously we do not fully understand the female experience. If we wanted to create an environment that is conductive for females to come in and be successful and grow their business, what should we do as male brokers in an industry that is 60% female? [Erica]: I would say bring them along with you. Bring them up and along. Bring them to meetings. Bring them if you're going to say chambers of commerce function. Or local meetings. Board meetings. Bring them with you and mentor them up. I think women have to be told that it is OK. It is OK to be strong. It is OK to get a babysitter some nights and go out to business functions. You don't have to be home every night with the kids. I… Women feel guilty about this. I know I did. Getting my broker's license I had to have my best friend at the house from 6 to 10 Thursday nights when I took my classes. And I felt terrible that they were in school all day with my friends rather than with me. But…You have to empower them and also listen to them. You should listen to. A lot of women get stepped on their voices get stepped on and they don't necessarily feel like they are heard.  In my office meetings for example the man in my office he's named Will. He is fantastic. He is very open to giving suggestions at our office meetings. His voice is very vocal. And I have watched some of the women step back a little bit when he speaks and I will pull them out of their shell and say “That is a great idea Will. What do you think about it Stephanie?” And pull them up so that they are not shrinking violets in the background. [Chris]: That's a…I think that is fantastic. we'll have to make sure that we are doing things like that because you know right now we…at least my office is predominantly female. So we try and create an environment where no ideas are really shunt. Right we want everybody to feel empowered that when they come into the office their ego is left at the door and everybody is here to either better themselves or better the people around them.  OK If they're not in the office for one of those 2 reasons they're not welcome because every…So we want that environment where people feel “Oh hey you know what everybody's voice is heard and everybody gets the same amount of focus form the office on how they can grow their business.” And I think one of the challenges being a male broker is that we just instinctively we yell at each other. I mean guys, that's what we do. [Erica]: Right. [Chris]: So when we sit in meeting we're gonna yell at each other. Politely but we're gonna basically be vocal. And what I have learnt is that a lot of women let that happen. They kind of step back so I really like that. That's one of the things that I am gonna have to work on. When I am in those meetings recognizing when they are kind of stepping back and binging them forward. That is great. Thank you Erica. [Erica]: What's the body language? And you know when someone has something to say but they're not gonna say it. And I pull them out of it and make them say it because I wanted them to know their voice is important to me.  [Christian]: Yeah I thing that is important as a leader whether male or female. You know people have different personality types and you know kind of as a type females in general tend to be not as aggressive. So…But you know I know that guys are like that too kind of pick them out like “Hey you know I see you haven't said anything during this meeting, what do you think about this” you  know and try to pull them back in. [Chris]: I think that is excellent advice. So take note brokers. Male brokers. This is what you gotta be doing because face it women are on the move and it's…They're the majority we're the minority, I am the user minority because I am not only a man, but I am a millennial. We make up 4% of the industry. So…It's important to pay attention to this stuff. Nate? [Nathan]: So to pick back on that Erica I always like to ask our guests questions that we have on the show. So the first one I would almost think maybe it would be applicable maybe I am wrong, but first question I want to ask you is how is failure and current failure set you up for later success? Question 2 is what are bad recommendations you hear in our profession and then the third one is if you can have a gigantic billboard anywhere with anything on it what would it say? So go [laughter]. [Erica]: OK and the first question is easy. The biggest failure in my entire life was when I had the magazine. I bought the magazine from my prior boss. I got tired of doing all the work. That's what I thought. Doing all the work and not being the boss so I just bought them out. And I blamed the pregnancy on that one.  So I bought it without looking at the numbers without the advice of my attorney, my accountant and my husband. [laughter]. The trifecta and a couple of years later I…the whole industry changed. Destruction came in. The disruptors but we already hear them all the time in our industry. And domino started falling and I was 3 quarters of a million in debt. In this tiny little rural world and I somehow managed to start a second magazine which actually was successful but I learned huge, huge lessons in that first failure, like when you get a pay, pay roll, you don't use a discover card. You know or huge lessons that I never repeated again.  All having to do with my ego and the handling of overhead. Which leads me to number 2. So handling the overhead whether you're the broker or the agent. Everyday my agents come to me I feel with this great news scam. This great new product that somebody wants them to buy it too. “It's only 99 dollars a month. It's only 25 dollars a week. Only…It's only 100 dollars to put a business card up on our program.” You know over and over again. “It's only…It's only”.  And there are people who make lots of money selling products off the backs of agents who should not be spending that money. So, I warned my new agents “Please don't spend any money on any lead generators. I will make your leads for you. Just sit back and work the leads. And do not ever say it's only, because in January when you're adding up your taxes it's gonna be a huge number”. So that to me is one follows the other. Keep your overhead low. [Chris]: Shiny object syndrome.  [Erica]: Yeah the new shiny object thing. [Nathan]: Yeah we have talked about that before but that is a great recommendation. I mean awesome. Awesome recommendation.  [Chris]: “It's only gonna cost me my success”. [laughter] [Erica]: Yeah and than they say “You only need to sell one house”. If you only sell one house you can't pay off the thing. Now I don't want to hear that. [laughter]. And then I guess my billboard would be “Be fearless”. Just that's my motto “Be fearless”. I am… [Chris]: Where would you put it? [Erica]: I would… [Nathan]: I didn't ask where. [Erica]: Yeah he didn't ask where so I don't have to answer that question. [laughter] [Chris]: OK OK ,be fearless. [Nathan]: Yeah I mean literally the question is “If you could have it anywhere with anything on it…” I mean it doesn't matter where it is it's what's on it I guess. Is the message. And be fearless. [Erica]: Yeah. [Chris]: I love that. So Erica we were talking the other day and you were currently working on an article for Inman. About how we focus our business. This kind of piggy bags off of our last episode with Billy a little bit. So what is your philosophy? You are running this business, you've got 8 agents, you are the reign maker. They are killing it. You've got great market share. What is your business philosophy about how you treat your clients and how does that set you apart? [Erica]: I…A lot of brokers say “We're agent centric, we're agent focused, we're all about the agent”. I believe the broker owns the client and I am client focused. It's all about the client. If you serve the client well the agents will be well fed and taken care of and that side of the coin takes care of itself. But it all begins with the broker and the client and so our entire office is very client centric. Even to the fact that if somebody is working with the client they're not handling it well or they are not mixing well with this person, they're getting frustrated. We will just pull them off that one and say “Give it to this person”. And switch them. It's about the client not about you and your commission or the money coming into the office. [Christian]: Preach it sister.  [Erica]: So…Say it again. [Christian]: I said preach it sister. [Nathan]: Preach it is right. I mean if you go by even our last episode part of this. Again it's client. This is like another one of the common themes in our podcast right guys? I mean and lady.  [Chris]: It's tuning in. [Nathan]: Listen listen, this is not rocker science. We are not reinventing the wheel. We are not…We are not coming up with something new. We're actually just going in and doing what we should be doing and taking care of the client. Good Gosh I mean we can't say it enough. But I mean why do we have to keep saying it? [Erica]: Because people are too dump to do it. It's simple.  [Christian]: Right. Well and I think it's because we push it back against the status quo of the industry. The franchises… [Chris]: They're like KPIs KPIs KPIs. [Christian]: All of that stuff is set up to be focused on sales and numbers and money and getting as many agents as possible you know. [Erica]: Yeah. [Chris]: Recruit retain recruit retain. [Christian]: Exactly. So I mean being client focused or caring about people is not…You are going against the flow of how the whole industry works. [Nathan]: Right yeah. You know there are stats and all that good. I had an agents yesterday…sag way real quick. Sorry. They chased bank at their home office. I get invited to their…their first time or their home buyer programs. And it is great being a chased preferred agent but they are having to be another agent there that is new and one of the other agent speaks and said “Hey we haven't lost the house and in our competitive market you probably will.” And she said “Not me” And I was like oh come on just stop. Like here we go with the ego and not making it about the client, you're making it about you. And can we just…More people. I am gonna stop. Just stop making it about you there. [laughter] [Chris]: Yeah it's the ego. [Erica]: And brokers can be afraid to get people out of their office when they don't fit not only the culture but the way the agent should be. I terminated one who was all about her. She rebelled on a client because the client was 10 minutes late on an appointment [laughter]. And the client forwarded me the text message and she said “I don't have time to wait for people at houses”. I was “You need to leave now” [laughter]. [Nathan]: If this was online and like a quote I would be doing that arrow and this…This this right… [Chris]: Yes. [Nathan]: Man that is…Yes. Don't be afraid. [Chris]: One of the…One of the things that I have learned over the last few years in kind of the leadership role of running a company is your culture that you build and that you operate is based off of thousands of tiny interactions. When you have people like that the ego, the meltdown, the trip, like they're just gonna suck and drain all the energy away from the people that are really trying to do good. So I couldn't agree with you more Erica. You just gotta get rid of those people. Unfortunately, I think there is too many brokers that if you got a pulse and a license you're… [Erica]: When you're being judged…When you're in a major franchise and you're being judged by the head count in  your office…I don't judge myself. People ask me...I will go to Inman and the first word out of their mouth is how many agents I have in the office. So I have… [Christian]: It's the metrics of measuring success. [Erica]: Exactly. I am proud of my market share. I am proud of the fact that my agents do a minimum of 24 sites a year. I have 2 that are doing 40 this year and one who is approaching 60. That is a lot of site. [Chris]: That is a lot of site. [Nathan]: That is slaying the dragon. [Chris]: I think that having…A lot of people put pressure on the metrics. “Oh number of agents, volume sold”. But I think the biggest metric is per person productivity. Because I think if those numbers win the per person productivity I think you are destroying Remax who is the…I mean their franchise on average is the highest per person productivity at like 16 sites per agent on average.  They don't even bring in KW because they are the biggest but they don't have the numbers per agent that KW has. That Remax has. And your average real estate agent in the industry is gonna do like what? 3, .4 deals per year? And that's just sites. So 3,4 sites per year I think is the average. And you are destroying that. And that is fantastic and you're doing it with a complete math of 10 people.  [Christian]: Yeah and that's the…That's the business number side of it. Anything else taken into accounts, smaller you know indie brokerages like ours you know can have the luxury of being able to be in charge, in control of developing that culture, how happy are your agents? You know, like on Remax or whatever. You know name any franchise and you know largely they have undefined culture. Like there is no distinguishing factor as to you know….What is like in their office versus anther franchise. Like they're just there to you know have head count. [Chris]: Our office has the best coffee machine. [laughter] Stuff like that. So Erica for any…We've had the theme kind of today of being the woman business owner. For anybody who is thinking about like stepping up like what advice would you give them? [Erica]: I would say that if you're not strong in your leadership skills or don't feel like you're there, that don't know how to be a leader, get a coach, get a mentor. There are at least in my areas there is classes you can take as far as leadership. Or find someone who you admire and ask them to take you under their wing because it really is by osmosis I think in this business and if there is someone in your office who shows promise bring them up with you. I take my agents all the time to chamber of commerce function, to mixers and just have them by my side so they can watch me interacting with other business people an helpfully bring up their confidence level. [Chris]: I love it. That's great. Erica for anybody who wants to get in touch with you and say they've got somebody moving to Pennsylvania or they just want to reach out and pick your brain on some of the things that you have accomplished, what is the best way that they can reach you? [Erica]: They can always call me or email me. My email address is easy, it's my name. ericaramus@gmail.com. And that's –E-R-I-C-A-R-A-M-U-S@gmail. And my phone number is 5704492131. If you google me it's all over. [Chris]: Awesome. Erica thank you so much for taking the time out of your day today to join us here in re:Think Real Estate. For everybody who is listening in please visit us. Go to rtrepodcast.com. Subscribe to the newsletter so every week when we launch a new episode you're gonna get notified. Thank you so much for tuning in. We'll see you next week.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode Body language is one of the most important tools in your arsenal to build a rapport with your clients. Today we discuss how much more important your body language is to your clients than your words and your tone. We discuss the ins and outs of the handshake, when to avoid closing the deal, and what different signals mean. Tune in and don't forget to leave us a review on iTunes! Our body language conveys a clear message. Rethink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 25:59 RTRE 53 – How Body Language Can Improve Your Real Estate Business  [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody welcome back. This is re:Think Real Estate your number one source for real estate, business, news, tech and tactical advice. Today we're talking about body language and why that's important in your real estate business. Christian. What do you think about body language buddy? [Christian]: The language of the body. [laughter] I think it's good. I think it's something we probably don't focus on enough because you know there's a lot of subconscious queues that we take from tone of voice and the…and the disposition of someone's body that we don't really recognize. You know we focus on scripts and what we say but you know it's actually a relatively small amount of our communication, affective or not is through our words. [Chris]: Absolutely. So interestingly enough if you haven't…to anybody out there if you haven't researched how body language works and how communication works, about 7% of all communication is vocal. Those are the words that I speak. The words coming out of my mouth. And 30…what was it? 38% of all of it was actually vocal. That is the inflection, the tone of our voice makes up more of the communication that we're…in the message that we're sending to others, than do the actual words that we speak today. [Christian]: Wait is that why my wife is always upset with me? And she never focuses on what I say but how I say it? [Chris]: Yes. Yeah that's actually… [Christian]: Lessons to learn there. OK.  [Chris]: And yeah. So interestingly enough that you bring that up. People that are naturally able to read a room, so if you've come across somebody and you're like “Wow they're very perceptive”, it's because they pay attention to body language. And women are way better at this than men are. Just naturally they stop and think.  But 55% of all communication is through body language. It's nonverbal. It's in the gestures that we make. It's in how we present ourselves. And, you know, for anybody watching this you're not gonna see anything that I am doing but you'll hear in the vocal inflection more than you'll pay attention in the words that I am saying just statistically. So please keep listening to my inflection. [laughter] But it's extremely important. And I think that in real estate we have all these sales gurus that are telling you “This is what to say, this is what to say. Call them. This is what you need to say to somebody”. They're writing scripts down. They're telling you how often you need to call somebody. They're telling you when like who you need to call. You need to call all your neighbors and you're doing circle prospecting and you're inviting them all to you open house.  But it doesn't tell you that…none of these coaches talk to you and say “And by the way when you call them don't do this and talk like “Hi my name is Josh and I am a realtor and I am listing the house down the street. We have an open house coming up and I would like to invite you there [flat intonation]”. Because you're gonna put everybody to sleep. Not only that but nobody wants to talk to somebody that they don't know and they're not passionate or enthusiastic about anything that they're saying so the inflection makes a difference. What do you think Christian? [Christian]: I think you're real spot on there sparky. [Chris]: Just keep petting my ego. [Christian]: Yes. [Chris]: Like words I never get tired of hearing. “You're right”. [Christian]: Yes it's interesting because so much you know with something like google something like audio podcast, all you're hearing is the voice of the content and the inflections. Right? So like on my other podcast it is interview based. It's the Sea Town podcast. What I started doing is instead of having the guest sit you know across a chair across from me, everybody sitting and talking, I use my stand desk and we put the microphone in the middle and we stand. And have a conversation.  Because there is actually you know statistics that talk about, you know, you actually have a lot more energy naturally and a lot more expressive when you're standing and you can talk with your hands and you're not like standing in a chair. And so you can actually hear them in someone's voice as far as their energy level and their excitements if they're standing versus if they're sitting. You know.  And I notices that myself. Like if I am monologue-ing or something I have to be really intentional like if I am doing video I need in my head I need to be super over the top excited because it might actually come out to the other person like I am talking normally. [Chris]: Yeah and I mean it's really weird because a lot of people talking about the inflection in your voice like if you're selling something you need to be passionate about it. Because people hear the passion more than they hear the words that you're saying. So if you're sitting down with a seller or a buyer and you're talking about “Oh this is the process and this is how we're gonna help you buy the house and we're gonna get you prequalified [flat tone]” versus “Hey this is awesome. You're at a stage now where we have a lot to do and here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna get you prequalified and you're gonna talk to X,Y,Z lenders and once we get the prequalification down we're gonna start doing the home search. So you've given me some of the things and…[excited tone]”.  The message is completely different. Inflection in how you talk. People can hear passion. People can hear whether or not you actually care about what you're doing. [Christian]: They can tell whether or not you believe in the product you are selling so to speak. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: “I think everybody should own a home” [flat tone] “I THINK EVERYBODY SHOULD OWN A HOME” [excited tone]. [Christian]: Your examples are killing me. Stop. Stop.  [Chris]: [laughter] So I mean and then it comes down to like the body language. Right? So once you're actually in front of people how important is body language? Well not only it is 55% of all communication but it…body language permeates even our vocal. It permeates our vocabulary. Right? You're got phrases like ‘to shoulder a burden'. ‘To face up to it'. ‘Keep your chin up'. ‘Put your best foot forward'. They all describe how we can approach things and inevitably these phrases give an innate understanding of what that message is supposed to portray. Even if you're not able to communicate it verbally. Right? People just understand what those mean. And that's because we understand the messages that come across through body language.  All right so here is some things that we could talk about how we can add body language into your repertoire. How you can focus on improving things. So there was a study done on using your index finder to point. And first off you should never point with your index finger mainly because there is lots of cultures that consider it rude.  Secondly because this study had 2 different audiences, same speaker, same speech. In one speech the speaker was pointing with his index finger. In the other speech he was gesturing with his hands open, palms open, hands up. And 80…over 80% of the audience was receptive and thought that he was well mannered in the…in the speech where palms were open. Under 40%...actually over 40% of the audience thought he was arrogant and did not know what he was talking about in the speech where he was pointing with his index finger. So there is some food for thought there. [Christian]: I mean I find that pretty interesting. I was talking about a case study. What…if our listening are thinking to themselves “What are we talking about when we're talking about body language?”. Like the things that come to my mind are the obvious ones like if I am sitting you know leaning back in my chair with my arms crossed I am giving off, you know,  the impression that I am closed and I don't give a [censored] about what you're saying. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: If you know I am generally sitting with open posture I am receptive to what someone is saying or respectful or whatever. [Chris]: Yeah. And… [Christian]: Here are some examples. [Chris]: In most times you're right. Now there is a few reasons people are gonna sit with their arms crossed though. People are gonna sit with their arms crossed either they don't give a [censored] about what you're saying and they just…they…nothing you say is gonna get through to them or maybe they're anxious. Maybe they're nervous.  All 3 of those feelings will come across when somebody is crossing their arms. For example, you know crossing arms isn't just it as a…crossing arms is the most common especially for kids. But as people grow up they get more kind of conscious about what they're doing with their hands and arms. They start taking on more of a subtle role.  So if anybody has ever watched Prince Philip. Prince Philip will grab and adjust his cufflink which is his arm crossing his body. It's a nervous tick that he has and he does it whenever he is in large crowds. Same thing Queen Elisabeth. She will clutch a purse. She will hold with both hands so she is crossing her body. And people, adults do this all the time.  So it's just watching for the subtleties and it's learning to understand what they're actually doing. And this is super important because Christian if you're sitting across from me and you're a seller and you're talking about listing your house and your arms are crossed it's not a good time for me to go in for a close and ask you to sign stuff. [Christian]: [laughter] Yeah it doesn't seem like a lot of buy in, you know. [Chris]: No it's time for me to start digging in and asking you questions to find out what's really bugging you. So I mean… [Christian]: What would you say… [Chris]: Go head. [Christian]: Sorry didn't mean to interrupt your example. I was gonna say what are some examples for real estate agents to come across as far as like being in tune not only to your own body language but to your client's body language as far as what they may be saying without saying it? [Chris]: Well for us we want to make sure that we're doing a few things. 1, we want to be open. We want to gesture with our hands open not with our index fingers. We never want to cross our body so when we're seating we're not crossing our legs. Now women in you're wearing a skirt that is an exception. But we're not fidgeting. We're…our arms are open. Our arms and hands are not touching. Arms are not crossed. Sitting upright with a good posture. Those are all extremely important.  Second your handshake. Your handshake is incredibly important. You want to have a firm handshake. There is 3 different styles of handshake and they all mean different things, right. If your handshake is palm up than that's kind of a submissive handshake. Those are things that you would give when you're meeting the pope, right. Somebody who is in a very important higher up kind of status.  And then for the opposite of that is the palm down handshake where you are displaying authority. It could be a power symbol. So for the most part when you're meeting with people especially clients, people that you're doing business with you want to make sure that their handshake is vertical. Right, your palm is up and down and you want it to be firm.  And then starting off with a good handshake because once…if the handshake gets [censored] up, if somebody misses whatever it is just grab their elbow, do it again. Say “Hey let's get this right” because doing something like that is gonna show them that you care enough about them to make sure that you're getting off on the right foot and you're gonna make sure that the meeting is important. [Christian]: Say when I mess up on a handshake I just go in for the awkward like “Hey bro…” bro hug you know. That usually…wait I don't close my deals.  [Chris]: Yeah never met someone with those [laughter]. That usually doesn't work.  [Christian]: Yeah I wouldn't recommend it on the first meeting. [Chris]: So there is actually ways that you can really make a handshake more powerful. But if somebody is…if you just know them, right, it creeps people out if you like touch them and give them a handshake. But if you just spend time like an hour getting very personal with somebody about what they have going on like when you shake their hand to leave you can grab the outside of their hand. Say “Thank you for your time.” Or maybe their elbow and just handshakes shouldn't be more than 3 seconds. [laughter]. If they are they get creepy. But just doing that extra gesture shows that you care, that you can empathize with what they go through.  It's just not something that you do right when you meet somebody cos than it's weird and creepy and they're gonna think that you're inauthentic. So I mean there is a lot of things that we can do as agents to use our body language to make a…the experience more warm, more inviting for our clients and the people that we're meeting on a daily basis.  [Christian]: Alright. So…So Chris give me some examples. Let's do a brief list of body language to dos and body language to don'ts [laughter]. Things not to do. Let's start with some stuff that we should be doing like specifically regarding, you know, maybe common interactions that a real estate agents would have with a client. What are some things they wouldn't be conscious of when meeting a client? [Chris]: Well when you're meeting a client you always want to make sure that you're making eye contact. That you're not crossing your hands. You're not fidgeting with anything. You are giving them your full attention. It's important that you have good posture. That you're upright. Shows that you are caring and paying attention on what they have to say. [Christian]: OK now what if let's say they are from an Asian background. Because a lot of these body language to dos are relevant to the American culture which you know to some other cultures we seem aggressive. [Chris]: Yeah we definitely do. [Christian]: But the Asian cultures you know it's respectful to you know not make eye contact and look down you know or be more passive you know. [Chris]: Culture is definitely something to pay attention to because it is extremely important. There is a great book out there and if I can remember it I will post it in the links. Which is basically like a cheat sheet of how to interact with like 100 different cultures. And what's…what's considered appropriate and what's not. So that's really up to the individual to know who they are gonna be meeting with. And to make sure that they understand how they need to act.  Body language though is gonna be pretty universal. If you are fidgeting is gonna come across that you are not interested. If you're crossing it's gonna be closed off. And the reason body language is so universal is because that's how communication happened before language developed. Like we had silent movies. Silent movies worked before audio came into the movies. People understood what was going on and that was universal. People can understand a story based off of not having words. [Christian]: Sure interesting, interesting reminder yeah. [Chris]: Sure there are cultural things but for the most part you want to be open, you don't want to have anything crossed because you want to be considered trustworthy. You don't want to touch your face. You don't because touching your face is like a nervous tick for a lot of liars so you just want to stay away from all of that and just focus purely on what the other person is doing. Don't fidget. Pay attention. [Christian]: But what about the…the common…I don't know if it's a myth or not. You know I have heard that if people are lying they always look up and to the left. You know like that kind of stuff I mean like is…Because I know like when I think. Like if someone asks me a question I have to think about it. I notice that I look away. While I am thinking I don't look back like I don't know like that is subconsciously picked up or matters. You can't really control it. [Chris]: Well people pay attention to that stuff but I don't know if it's about a lie. So for that I think people look up in a way because they want to focus on their thought process and not be distracted by the person that is right in front of them. You want to pay attention to the person as much as possible. And sometimes they might ask you a difficult question and you need to think about some details but I will try not to pure away if possible. But you know that is a little outside of my realm. I am not too familiar how the unconscious works with you know look up and left or look up and right. [Christian]: Very true.  [Chris]: Based off of what you were saying. [Christian]: OK so what…what…So getting into some of the things not to do. You know you mentioned you want to focus on the other person. What about when you focus on in the wrong way of too much and you know people get a creepy vibe? What are some body language things that give off that that ? You don't want it. [Chris]: I think [crosstalk]. For me really the worst is a bad handshake. The dead fish, the like bone crushes. The…the sweaty palm I mean it's…those handshakes, those meetings never go well. Somebody comes in and they're meeting with me and they come off the back like immediately I need to go the restroom and like wash my hands. And I understand, there is a certain…there is a percentage of the population that is like…somewhere between 10 and 15% of the population I think that suffers from a medical condition where they just overly sweat. I get it. But if you're going into a business meeting before you go in have a handkerchief. Get a little dried off there and than, than start.  [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: And I would probably say that the limp, the limp fish is like way worse the bone crushes. That's probably the second worst in my book. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: But that's like to me that's like the holy grail. You don't violate that. [Christian]: Sure. Would you say that…that you kind of…I know it is a general statement but that…what does a handshake say about someone like either a bone crashes to me that says hey they are trying to…they are coming in aggressive. And they're trying to dominate the other person. [Chris]: Exactly. [Christian]: While the limp fish is like super passive, not gonna have an opinion about things. Doesn't want to offend people. [Chris]: So the limp fish is an interesting one because for the most part yes. They're like…they're the message it conveys is that they're submissive. They're not gonna be very strong. But there's a cavy out there. If they work in a profession where they use their hands like if they're a surgeon don't expect to get a strong handshake from a surgeon. Especially if they're a very good one because their hands are insured. Because if…if they just do that naturally like all means to protect the tool that is their livelihood.  But yeah typically the bone crusher is a power move. People don't do that on accident. They do that because they want to make an impression. And I think a lot of people come in with the bone crushes thinking “Oh I am gonna show them that I really mean business and I am gonna crush their hand and show them that this is a strong handshake”. But the reality is that if you go to do something like that to somebody and you are not their superior, you are not in a position of authority with them it's a complete turn off. I had a home inspector do that for me and you know what I am not messing with them. I don't want to deal with anybody that is just trying to put on a show. And you know be more important than they are. Just vertical… [Christian]: Type a yeah? [Chris]: Yeah. Firm match the grip of somebody…of the other person. That's all you gotta do. It's not hard. It's not rocket science. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: But I am finding out that like I don't know, did your dad ever teach you how to do a handshake when you were younger?  [Christian]: My dad didn't teach me [censored]. I hope he doesn't listen to this podcast. [laughter]. Not now there wasn't a lot of intentional training that I remember from my dad unfortunately. [Chris]: OK so a lot of…a lot of man get that. [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: Women don't. That's not something that is taught to women. So women have to get out and learn these stuff because they will come into…if a woman comes in and they do a very weak handshake in a business environment they're gonna be thought of as feminine. And they're gonna be treated as such.  If they don't come in with that firm handshake that says “Hey I am here I am on equal ground with you and we're gonna do this” than there is…it's been traced that they'll be treated differently. Conversely if they come in with a bone crusher nobody is gonna want to deal with them. They're here for a power play which… [Christian]: Sure. I am sure there is gonna be some subconscious double standard where they're gonna be “Me and you rather as dudes and not used to think in terms of…and OK if a guy you know does this thing this is my response but if a woman does it I am gonna think about it differently” you know like… [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: Yeah that can definitely be unfair in the business world. You know kind of a double standard that we subconsciously apply.  [Chris]: Definitely. There is a great book for anybody who is interested in learning more about body language and how it can impact and shape how your business ventures go. Not only in your business life but it also talks about things that you need to know in your daily life. How to read a bar, how to read a party and you're able to see how people are feeling based off of how they interact. The book is called The Definitive Book of Body Language. The Hidden Meaning Behind People's Gestures and Expressions. By Allen and Barbara Peas [phonetics]. It's a great book. Currently reading it now and somewhat sound like an expert based off of that but don't take it for granted.  [Christian]: Oh yeah. [Chris]: I get my info from books.  [Christian]: I will make sure it doesn't go to your head. [Chris]: Thank you. I appreciate that. No it's definitely good stuff. It's important that we pay attention to how we're communicating with people not just verbally, not just vocally but also through our body language. So everybody thank you so much for tuning in. This has been another episode of re:Think Real Estate. We'll be back next week. Nate will be back. And I think we've got some guests coming up soon. So we will have some good guests. We'll see you soon.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode There are so many different needs that individual real estate agents have for their business. Many agents need detailed support and guidance in building and operating their business. Others need a framework that they can operate their business within that will lead to greater predictability in their income. Each agent is different within the real estate space and Brokers should understand how they can tailor their model to match different needs of agents. What do agents want from their broker? The re:Think Real Estate Podcast focuses on different aspects of the real estate industry. We share stories of amazing agents that defied the odds to create a name for themselves in the industry. We also share best practices for what works for us in our daily lives. Tune in every week to hear a new episode. Oh, and while you're at it please leave us 5 STAR review on iTunes! Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 29:39 RTRE 51 – What Do Real Estate Agents Want? [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Christian Harris and Nathan White and we're so glad to have you along for the next 30 minutes. Guys what is going on? [Christian]: Just trying to stay warm. It's snowing again in 2019 in Seattle. It's actually pretty bad so it's like adages of snow and lots of hill lots of nice… [Nathan]: Yeah I guess…It's tougher for you guys in Seattle with your skinny jeans that come up past your ankles and getting wet and you not knowing what to do. [Chris]: It was hard tracking to the local coffee shop this morning right? [Christian]: Yeah. I am a steady guy in the eye. [laughter]. [Nathan]: My Fedora blue is off in the heavy snow and I didn't know what to do. [Christian]: I got my flannel and my…down. [Chris]: I don't know if I can make it to the grocery store for more almond milk.  [Christian]: You can come here and try to drive down in the 18% grade in the ice and see how you do. [Nathan]: When I went to pick a granola for the day care it was really challenging. [crossover talking] [Christian]: It must have been really nice living in the woods and having… [Nathan]: It was a great episode. Guys I gotta go [laughter].  [Christian]: That's a little [inaudible] I get it. [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in to re:Think Real Estate. We'll catch you…No I am just kidding. So no what are we talking about this week Christian? [Christian]: Let's talk about what agents want or what we think agents want. Or what agents think they want but then they find out they don't really want that. [Nathan]: This is great since I am an agent and I can't wait to think what 2 brokers think we want or at leats…[laughter]. [Christian]: Well we're also agents. I mean technically we're brokers in Washington but…you know I know there's things that I want which is why I set up my brokerage the way I did. But then you also have the… In my experience you kind of have like what agents say they want, what they think they want and then you actually find out what they want. Because you provide them all the things they say they want and they don't use them. Or they still go somewhere else because they're lured by something else sexy and shiny. And then realize the grass isn't actually greener. So I think it's actually interesting conversation to have. What do you guys think? [Chris]: Well I think that you know…for that is gonna depend on where the agent is in their career.  [Christian]: Correct and what they want. [Chris]: You're got all new agents. You've got all different types of brokerages. You know your new agent is gonna need a lot more than your experienced agent so where do you want to start first? [Christian]: Yeah I mean yeah I would say there is probably you know on the spectrum 3 major groups of agents I would say. There's the agent who doesn't need the help, doesn't want the help, just wants a low fee, low cost structure to do their own thing.  [Chris]: OK. [Christian]: That's fine that's gonna be like Nathan, you know, what you're doing. You know you started at KW you got your feet under you and kind of went out to do your own thing. You know, after you figured it out.  And I think there is the bulk of agents which is kind of in the middle of. They want some support of some sort whether that's access to the broker for questions or marketing or CRM or systems or something. They're gonna want some sort of support and they're willing to pay up a higher split for that.  And I guess you could say maybe like Redfin or something is kind of the other, I don't know if I would say other end of the extreme, where it's employee based. It's not independent contractor based you know. So you're got no anonymity because you're not an independent contractor. You're playing your part in the cog as a cog and a corporation. [Chris]: I think…I think those are on the grand scheme of things. Because most offices don't operate on employee bases. I think we can probably categories those like team members. Those that don't want to build their own business, just want leads provided to them, go out close to sale, be a sales agent.  [Christian]: there you go so their value that they're looking for is being part of a team.  [Chris]: OK. [Christian]: Yep. [Chris]: Well let's start with the…with the bulk of the agent. What do you think most agents want in a brokerage Christian? I am putting you in the hot seat first. [Christian]: Yeah that…It's…As I figured out or trying to figure out this independent brokerage thing you know and discovered things as you know agents have come and gone…I think what they want or what they realize that they want or need…I don't know. You cut that out [laughter].  I think what agents come to value is some sort of system in the organization because they realize very quickly that most of them are not organized. And so they're gonna have that provided to them without them having to figure out technology and CRM and that kind of stuff. But I think it's something that a lot of agents have to discover. It's probably not something that they value up front.  You know they have to discover “OK I am getting business and I am bringing it with my head cut off you know and I cannot really handle so much because I am scattered, you know.” I mean that's…That was kind of my idea. I mean that's what I saw was agents want to be in front of people. There's not necessarily systems, processes organized. You know, that kind of stuff. So the whole idea is you come here, we provide that so you can go out and be in front of people and not have to worry about thinking you know the back end stuff. [Chris]: So basically all the behind the scenes taken care of so they can focus on selling. [Christian]: Yes and no. Actually I think it's not initially valued until they realize that they're not good at it. And they need it. So…It's not sexy so…but I think some things are sexy, they're a little more obvious. Would be like marketing. Like you know are there options for me to have a listing that I don't have to create from scratch. You know.  Whether that's internal marketing team or some sort of template platform. You know that they provide it for you. Or social media post of something. Something that makes it easy to get in front of potential clients or you know marketing stuff for your…for your buyers, for your sellers. That sort of thing.  I think a big one which is…seems pretty universal is access to the broker when they have questions. You know so…because I have had people come here say “I can't…it takes 3 days for my broker to get back to me”. You know and I am like “That's kind of ridiculous you know, you have one job as a broker. You know”. Technically I mean that's kind of the big thing it's like supporting the agents when they have legal questions. Contract questions [laughter]. You know if you're not doing that what the hell are you doing? You know.  [Chris]: Nate what do you think? [Nathan]: There's is many things here. Like you know me. I am the bear bonds. I don't moat, I don't need all the fluff. You know… [Christian]: Oh fluff huh? [Nathan]: You know what I mean with it [laughter]. [Christian]: I know what you're saying. [Nathan]: But you talk about like we go back to this you know agents being so busy, right. So you know an agent says “Well I need all this, right…Or…”. But than they don't actually use it. And so I…I…like I was in that box. Like I had all the stuff but I didn't use it. So why am I paying for it. So… [Christian]: Sure. [Nathan]: There are so many different directions you can go. You're right on the types of people I think that the sharks like myself that you know or hunter killers, whatever you wanna call us that you know we're happy going out and hunting and eating what we kill and that's…We really enjoy that.  And then there's that middle of the pack you know I call it your dad bought group, right. You know they're just happy standing in lane [laughter] and not doing anything. And that belly is gonna appear and they're not gonna be much about it. They're comfortable. That's what we are as a society. Were a [censored] comfortable. So they're not gonna challenge anything at all right. They're just gonna say “Yeah I don't mind giving out 60-40 split. I am good I am getting my CRM that I am not using.” All this [censored] that they're not really using but they're telling themselves they're happy. What they are they're just comfortable and they're not truly uncomfortable and I think to be a hunter killer or shark you've gotta be comfortable being uncomfortable.  And then you've got that far end of the spectrum of that person who's got really no ambition to me or they just…they don't know what the [censored] they're doing and they're on that employee you know plan. So go for it. You know that's happy. And that's fine. I…I love the middle of the road pack. There's you know they're great and they do a great job and people have different circumstances right. And I don't want to feel like I am bashing that middle of the road pack. Why? If you're a mum or a father, a single parent whatever it may be, you may need all those things to support you. Maybe you can't get out and you know be the hunter killer that you really want to be. Which I would challenge and say you could. But maybe that is just what works for you at this given time.  So you know I could…Again I could talk about a lot of different things. When I started I wanted leads. I wanted leads and I wanted to know how to talk to them. Converse to them. And become more educated and knowledgeable. That's what I wanted. So than once you get past that phase I think than there's the evolution. You kind of have that fork on the road to go down this path and you stay there.  And then you're just happy in your zone and you go “Well I wanna go this way”. And you go the opposite direction. So I think it depends on the type of individual or personality you are and I think it depends on where you are in your career. I mean hack, I might get to the later stages of this and go “Man I am good you know what”. And join a team and get comfortable and take a 60-40 split and be happy, right. I don't know.  [Christian]: Yeah I mean I'll push back a little bit on the characterization of the middle. Because to me it's such a broad…I think most agents would wall into that as far as agents are gonna line in franchise or whatever.  There is a good size group of them that are comfortable that aren't doing anything, that don't have a sense of urgency. You know I would say that's probably the same group that you know brings industry down as far as you know ill trained, ill experienced. Those are always gonna be there you know until we radically change, you know, where the bar is in the industry. Training or something. You know.  But I would say that I think there is a mischaracterization just because you're kind of in that middle, that you're not hungry. It doesn't mean it. Yeah I know plenty of agents who are killing it because they're hungry and because they're using…Because they're organized or you know have a team or whatever you know. I think you can be successful kind of doing that alone like you know not having a CRM or being an organized or refusing… [Nathan]: I am organized. [laughter] [Christian]: Not having a CRM and that sort of thing. But…Because I think if you're driven you're gonna be successful. Just a matter of you know kind of that quality of life or that you know…running with your head cut off. How much business can you handle. How much do you want to handle versus kind of having it…it systematized whatever so.  I think you can do it like you're doing it or be in the middle so to speak. And have that stuff provided to you. But I think you also hit an interesting point about leads. You know a lot of agents are willing to give up you know, splits because they want leads handed to them. And I am kind of divided on that because I mean in general my thinking is “Well if you as an agent can't figure out how to get your own business, what good are you? Like that's your job, is to figure out the business. What the broker is handing to you, the leads, the business, what do you need agents for? Like they did the hard work for you, you know.” The contract once you've been through the process is easy.  So I mean that's just kind of me. So that's not something we do and theoretically it's something that maybe we'll try to figure out or whatever but it's kind of ideologically speaking you know I don't want lazy agents that just want the business handed to them. You know I want sharks like yourself [laughter]. I want people that are motivated that are gonna go figure it out you know. [Nathan]: So than what would you provide to me as a shark? Like you know I do good business. So you're here in the Ohio market. You want me. You're like “Man I need Nathan on my team”. Or “How do I make this happen?” What are you gonna give me or what are you gonna provide me that's gonna change… [Christian]: I don't think that you would find value in the things that we provide so I don't know if that would be a good fit. Because for us is you know you come here, we give you your email, your CRM training. Back office stuff. If you're like “I don't need that I have my own thing.” well you're probably not gonna see the value in this let's give the culture we provide. You just want to go your own thing.  And I have had agents that said “Hey I don't think you're a good fit because all you want to do is do your own thing and you don't want any part in like the Sea-Town culture or what we give you. You don't find value in that so you want to negotiate a different split. Like it's not how we do it. You know it's not what we're looking for”. So it comes down to you know, what the agent values and what the brokerage's strength is.  [Nathan]: But you didn't pitch. You didn't pitch me. You didn't say… [Christian]: No I am not pitching you. I want agents that see the value that we bring. I am not gonna settle to an agent. I don't. I don't…I don't settle. I don't do pitches. I mean like this is what we do. This is what we're about. If you want to be part of it great. If you don't you know there's just no brokerage down there that won't give you anything. Wont charge anything either. [Chris]: So I think you both hit on some good points. But what are the key things that for…I think you both missed is humans are…We have a pack mentality. We want to belong to something that is bigger than ourselves. It helps with motivation. It gives us a sense of purpose in our lives. And I think the majority of agents choose their brokerage based off of how they…how it aligns with who they are personally. Yeah you have people that go out and do their own thing. But even the people that are…are attending you know their meetings in a video game are still a part of something that they feel aligns with their core values.  Another thing that I think is extremely valuable in the brokerage stand point is that a lot of agents don't know what they don't know. Their…their job is to make a living. Their job is to serve their clients and to go out and to make sure that the client is getting the best experience, that they are generating a referral and repeat business, that they're able to be the shark and to go out and get new business. Their job is not to follow industry trends. It's hard to do that stuff when you're doing a full time sales job. To be able to see what's on the horizon and look at the industry from you know, 30 thousand feet or 100 thousand feet versus being on the ground in the business are 2 completely different skill sets. And you know there are agents that don't see value in that. There are a lot of agents that they don't care one way or another because they just want some leads and they want to go out and sell. But then I think a vast majority of the agents really want to know what's going on and to have all the data that is collected really put into a form that is presentable and easily understood so that they can relate that to their clients and reinforce that they are a true expert.  I think that there is a lot of value that can be brought by the brokerage on this level and I think that a lot of agents when they realize that that is one of the core focuses of an office can really determine whether or not that is something that fits in line with what they want.  Now you guys both talked on leads and leads are a funny thing because leads can make a good agent great. Leads can help a new agent increase the size of a database very quickly. And if when they're done right form a brokerage stand point leads are not about giving handouts because for example our lead team has extremely strict requirements on their metrics and if their metrics aren't met their leads will be paused until they're able to complete the metrics that are required. At that time they will be reinstituted. And if they continue not living up to that message I've got a waiting list of people that want to be on that team.  And it's not to say that everything is done at a higher split. The leads are because we have a cost associated with that. But mostly the agents that are doing the leads they're only paying a higher split on the leads that we generate. Everything else is on their normal split for performance. So it just gives them an incentive to…if as a broker I can give some of my agents an extra 10 or 15 thousand dollars a year in their pocket that's business that they otherwise would not have had, and increase their database for future business down the road than I am doing my job well.  And if I can do that without you know hindering their ability to grow their business and be successful I am doing my job well. And when we're doing that along with building a culture and giving people that cause that they can believe in and that mentality of belonging than I am doing my job well. Now those are the things that I think a broker needs to do.  [Christian]: Yeah. I think you're exactly right. That kind of that culture I mean what we usually lead with as a brokerage is the culture and the experience. You know. And the experience is through technology blah blah blah, and things that we provide but the culture you know is not something that is replicatable.  [Chris]: No, culture takes years to develop. [Christian]: Yeah it's good. [Chris]: And it can be killed with one bad action. [Christian]: Right. And it's something that you know I see you know anecdotally I have seen here as far as…you know I can't speak about culture per se but definitely that hurt mentality you know I have seen you know form a distance like the brokerage I started off with like it started off…Because they're some big franchises you know within 2 miles of my office here. And you know I have seen you know the manager team left you know that brokerage, that franchise and went to another franchise and than you started seeing just and exodus of agents from that brokerage to the other brokerage just I mean just huge turn over in agents that had been with this brokerage for you know 10 years, 15 years.  And it wasn't because this other brokerage provides something better. It was because they like the people. Everyone is going there. That's the place to be. You know like it wasn't a tangible thing it was a more local grasp grip culture and the people you know. And you know and somebody I am trying to hack this. I am like how you know the people we're been bringing on they come to me already sold. They're like “We love what you're doing, the philanthropy, the culture. Innovation. We wouldn't be part of this.” But they're new agents and I am fond of that but that takes a lot of work up front to train and mentor and stuff.  What I am trying to hack you know is like how do I increase my ratio of experienced agents to brand new green agents? If you figure it out let me know [laughter]. Because it comes down to what the Sea-Town have that X, Y franchise doesn't have or can't provide. You know why would they leave some place they're comfortable and then no people as established brand or name whatever to this unknown scrappy indie brokerage?  [Chris]: Yeah so our focus is primarily on new agents. We...We put a ton of effort and time into training. So we have a lot of experienced agents that came to us back in the day when we were…just starting out. And our costs were so low that people came over. You know I bet back in the day Nate you would have been paying less with us at Sellect than whatever you're paying now. And we had to go away from that.  But interestingly as we got away from that we moved towards splits that were more in line with the services that were offering performance increased. Agents were making more now paying us a little bit more than the ever did. When they were paying us hardly little…hardly anything. And you know 100% of nothing is still nothing. And when we focused on production and training and we increased the splits people see a lot more value in what we do and our per person productivity has gone up since 2015. It was around 300.000 per person. Now it's a little over…Just under 1.1 million per person. So performance is tied to it. Yeah. [Christian]: Yeah I mean that's an interesting point because that is something that we're starting to try to do. Because before it was just kind of me doing 1 on 1. And I am a big believer in training support you know because my experience was you go to a brokerage, the brokerage is like “Welcome aboard. You know you have a heartbeat, good luck. Let us know if you need anything”.  And maybe would provide some training here and there but nothing systematized. Nothing is priorities. You know there's no organization to any of it. And as a new agent you don't know what you're supposed to ask. I mean like “OK I have a contract question.” “Do you have a specific question to ask me?”. You know that's not…”Teach me how to…how to business plan and how am I gonna generate you know, build my business”.  So we're starting to do more on that. I am very involved in that and since we're coming again to your point Nathan like agents you know, may say they want one thing but than their action maybe betray that they don't really value that. So we've had you know some agents sign up for you know our new training and stuff but you know there has been push back of “Oh it costs money?” And “Oh I don't have the time”.  And I am like “Hey listen like you put…you get out of it what you put into it and if you don't want to put money into it, you don't want to put time into it you're obviously not serious you know.” I am willing to work around scheduling stuff but I am not gonna pay for you. Like you know. So that kind of stuff can be difficult. Kind of trying to figure out who is a good fit and who is worth investing in versus they did. You know. [Chris]: So I've got a question for you Nate. So being in the style of brokerage where you're the hunter killer, you're the shark. You're going out and doing everything for your business, where are you getting the insight, the direction? Where do you find time to find that on your own without you know hindering your sales business? [Nathan]: Insight direction into what? [Chris]: Future of the industry. Strategy where you need to position yourself in the next few years?  [Nathan]: Well… [Christian]: The pivoting. [Chris]: We did an episode on pivoting. [Nathan]: I mean there is more than 1 real estate podcast in the world [laughter]. [Chris]: No no. [Nathan]: I am just kidding. [Chris]: I mean why would you say something like that? [Nathan]: It's amazing what is free out there right? You know again through reading alone and listening to other podcasts or you know you can gain a path of knowledge. The other side is to talk to other agents. You know there's…I have a few colleagues here you know I am very close with. And they're not at our brokerage at all but you know if I got an issue, a question “What would you do? What do you think?”. You know I call them.  You know you play in a playground and, you know, of like people and I think it helps grow. You know, its…You know secret agents don't make money. Well secret agents aren't gonna learn. If you don't go and mix and mingle and network with people that are like you. And it doesn't have to be a ton but you're not gonna learn anything right. You have to go to a place that does have a culture of sharing ideas and not the “It's all out for me”.  You know I applaud KKW when I was there. I had that culture you know with the people that I at least worked alongside. So I think that's important. You know there's plenty of ways. Again I think it's agents. Sometimes we love to act like we're so busy but we're not. I think it's about prioritizing your day and having a daily work flow and this is a job.  So many people sometimes you know, how do you do again this is a job but it's one I love, it's one I am passionate about. If you're passionate about something you're gonna learn more about it. You guys all know I love to run. Right. I know a [censored] lot about running. [laughter] I am not good at it. I am not good at it but I know a lot about it right. So…You've loved… [Chris]: Wait what are you talking about you're not good at it? [Nathan]: I don't know well that's the good thing about running. You…To be good all you have to do is be able to run right?  [Chris]: Yeah. You start moving you don't stop. [Nathan]: Right exactly. But something you're passionate about you're gonna be inclined to learn more about it. So if you're an agent listening to this and you're not truly passionate about what you do, if you don't truly care maybe you need a different occupation. [Chris]: Or you need to talk to somebody who is passionate about what they're doing and you see if some of that can rub off on you. [Nathan]: Yeah that's a whole episode of “Your why”.  [Chris]: Yeah you gotta find your why. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: Well I want to give kudos to you because most agents, and I think you're kind of the out wire there as Christian said earlier. Most agents don't have the time or the desire or just the energy to go out and do those things, mix and mingle and have discussions with people in the industry. And for those people that's where a solid broker comes in.  For the handful that can do it on their own we're got plenty of brokers that have a solo shop and they're producing. They own a firm. They do great work, they do great jobs. So it doesn't always take a brokerage. But they're…You've gotta have some sort of community or pack mentality. You've gotta have something you believe in, something you can grow with. And something that you can aim for.  Alright everybody than you so much for tuning in to this episode of re:Think Real Estate. I think it was a great talk. If you haven't already, please go to rtrepodcast.com that's for re:Think Real Estate. So rtrepodcast.com. Sign up for our newsletter. You will be notified every time a new episode drops. Also please, please, please go to iTunes, Google Play and leave us a 5-star review in Spotify or wherever you want to find us so that people know that we're good. I don't know. Thanks for tuning everybody. Have a great week.  [music] [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Keeping a positive outlook while building a business is not always the easiest. Today we talk about the tips and tricks we use to keep our minds focused and free from distraction and negative thoughts. Mindset matters. Real Estate Podcast Transcript Audio length 28:12 RTRE 52 – Keeping a Successful Mindset in Real Estate [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate.  I am Chris Lazarus here with Christian Harris and Nathan White. What is up guys? [Nathan]: [crosstalk] [Christian]: I am possibly feeling good. Kind of good mental outlook. [Chris]: You got a good mental outlook?  [Christian]: I am happy. [Chris]: What about you Nate? How is your mental outlook going today? [Nathan]: As strong as usual.  [Chris]: Fantastic. [Christian]: All the exercise. All this endorphin is gone. [Nathan]: It's also about not letting the…not letting that other devil on the shoulder creep in. [Chris]: Oh yeah definitely. It's always there. Today everybody we are talking about the mental state. The attitude to be peak performance, businessman, person. Whatever you wanna call it. But we're gonna talk about how your attitude and your metal state can impact not only your business but our personal life. Your family.  Everything that you do is impacted by your mental state. So guys who wants to take it off with the first point on this? Nate you're doing a lot with…with running and just being all around crazy person. So why don't we start with you? [Nathan]: Yeah I mean I guess you can. Sure. Whatever. Huh. [laughter] The…you know we talk about mental state right. I guess that's a question I get asked a lot. You know they say “How do you run so far? How do you do what you do?”.  And you know I tell people it's really it's not the physical. It's a couple of things. One is the mind. It is…it is having the mental fortitude to as we…as I said when we were getting into the show, talking that other guy off your shoulder who is telling you the whole time “You know you can quit”.  The other side of the mental state if you would is commitment. You know I probably said it before in our podcast. I talk about Ritual says it but you know he says it the moment of commitment the universe will conspire to assist you. There's Casey Neistat who is a filmmaker. He has a plan or a recipe if you would for success. That he guarantees to work. And I think it is all within this category.  What Casey says is “All you have to do is commit your entire life to something which will result in either 1 of 2 outcomes. Either you will succeed or you will die trying which is in itself its own form of success, right?”.  You know we're always…we're always looking for the easy way to do things either be in life, or even as a realtor. Realtors I think we're the best example of like “Oh wait sweet, that's gonna make me a million dollars. Oh wait look over here that's gonna make me this”. We're looking for the easiest way instead of committing to something and having the right mindset.  I will use us as an example right. We could have been traditional realtors when we said we were gonna set out to do the podcast. And I think you know not knocking on everybody on industry but you know a lot of people would have said “Alright fine after 10 episode…” they call, they call it quits.  [Chris]: They have. [Nathan]: Because the mindset was wrong going into it. When we started this we said before even recording an episode “We're committed to 100 episodes win, lose or draw”. Right. Because we have, we have no way to measure anything by doing it 3 or 4 times. And maybe even 100 is still not where we wanted to be but we stuck with the commitment to do it. Is it a [censored] and a pain the [censored] and do we have to coordinate all these other things that we have to deal with? Yes. [Chris]: At times. [Nathan]: But we are committed. And that takes mindset. Just stay committed to it. Right. I think any of us at any given point could have said “God is this…” You know we probably all said “Is this worth it?”. We have had those moments but you have to fight through the moment of doubt to move past it which generally is very fleeting. And it's quick and then we progress. Right.  So…you know mindsets it's everything we do. It's not just real estate. It's in your personal life and your daily life and your rituals. I mean I could preach about it all day I guess. You know a lot of what I have accomplished I consider myself an average Joe but I think what sets me apart is I have a different mindset.  [Christian]: Yeah I will add to that if I could. [Nathan]: No. [Christian]: I think… [Chris]: No you can't. Nate is gonna talk for this episode. [Nathan]: We don't need your opinion. We're just gonna stop there and work it out. [Christian]: Episode over. I think you're right. I think you know not giving up and being consistent is a big part of it. But I think the mindset as you're going through it and how you respond to you know using the example of the podcast. It takes up time and planning you know. We're blocked out 2 or 3 hours you know every week. Every couple of weeks to knock these out. And you know I could be thinking myself “Oh man this is a pain in the [censored]. I don't have time for this. I don't really like Nate but you know whatever. [laughter]” Whatever are my excuses. [Nathan]: Not liking me is a good one. [Christian]: But…But instead you know I choose to try and focus on “Well this is beneficial. Hopefully we will provide some value to other agents and this thing is gonna start you know being a momentum”. You know it's kind of what do you focus on? Do you wallow in the negatives or do you look towards you know, the positives?  And that's one thing that I think really, really can keep things going. Keep your energy up and just in life will keep you going. Because you could just wide knowingly and try and not give up. But just hate your life and be miserable and you know be an energy suck to everyone around you. Or if your attitude is you know right it will be the other. It will be again life empowering and energy. Giving and inspiring instead of what most people don't like being around. You know.  [Chris]: I think that you know when it comes to the thoughts that people have I think the difference between somebody who is successful and somebody who is not is their ability to control where their focus is going. And I think there is a common misperception by those who are unable to keep a positive attitude about how that happens.  And one of the…I wanna say it was in the Success Principles by Jack Canfield. But one of the best things that I have read is that everybody gets the train of thought. Everybody gets doubt and everybody gets the feeling of optimism at times and everybody struggles with “Is this for me or am I doing the right thing? Am I wasting my time? This is such a pain in the [censored]. I am not seeing the results”.  But the difference between people who are successful and the people who are not is the people who are successful have those thoughts and then they just watch those thoughts you know fly by. Right. Everybody…the train is gonna come and go. You can choose whether to ride it or not. And that's one thing that I have tried to do is that when those come up pay attention to it for a few minutes than get back to work. And you know I don't have time to wallow or think about whether this is gonna work or not. Just get on to the next project. [Christian]: Yeah I think you kind of remind me when you're talking about kind of the thoughts we have. You know because you can just be kind of the positive energy you know feng shui “I am just one with the universe, it's all about the feelings” right. [laughter] How do you get there? You can't just force feelings. [Chris]: No. Yeah. [Christian]: And I think a big part of that is…You know we're talking about intentionality there but I think there is intentionality in your thoughts. You know because like… [Chris]: Definitely. [Christian]: Because we're all…we all have internal voice. Internal dialogue right. We're always telling ourselves there is always a story that we're telling ourselves. Now that story could be full of lies or it could be full of truths. It could be life empowering or life sucking. And so if we're not conscious of… [Chris]: That's good. [Christian]: If we're not conscious of what we're telling ourselves…you know like something bad happens I tell myself and I am subconsciously telling myself “Man there he goes again. I am a total idiot. I am a marron. I can't do anything right. Nothing is gonna work”. Like you're gonna spiral downwards.  But if you're like “OK it's a little setback. I am gonna keep going forward. I am gonna make a suggestion.” You know like that's going to keep you going forward. And if you're not conscious of what we're telling ourselves or what story we're living our lives out of than you know our emotions are gonna be all over the place and we're not gonna know why. Because our thoughts largely will dictate “OK do I respond well to this? My emotions are going to you know get better or am I gonna spiral into the self-sabotaging depression”. Those thoughts that we have and what we're telling ourselves largely will dictate that. [Nathan]: But what did Henry Ford say? He has one of the greatest lines of all time.  [Chris]: Whether you think you can or you can't you're right. [Nathan]: Either way your right. [Christian]: That's right. Exactly. [Nathan]: Believe that like any of the journeys that I have bene on in my life and hell I have been on some. You know they were…they were hard. They were painful. They weren't…they weren't colossi. The reward though was the journey in itself. The not quitting. The really finishing the task, right.  And I think anybody that has been through whatever life experience it may be they are…they already know this. They know what's true. Right? You know I mean so…but it's…it is you know the mind itself it can be your best friend or your worst enemy, right? I mean you know I think and I was doing my 24 hour run and it's 3 a.m. in the morning. You know I've got that guy on my shoulder and that part of my mind going “Why the [censored] are you out here for? What are you doing?” Right.  And at any moment I could have just quit. I could have said “This is enough.” But what I had to realize is that moment of doubt, the moment of fear generally they're very short. They don't last as long as I think one likes to think. If you can get past it than it's OK but you kind of have to…you know you have to commit the daily pressure and what, you know, compels to just progress sometimes. You gotta give yourself you know over and over and over you know…I am good at what I do because I failed a lot. And I think a lot of people when they have failures they…they just quit. [Christian]: Right. But you took those failures and you said “What can I learn and how can I grow?” and not try to give up and not try it ever again because it's risky and painful. Super painful.  [Chris]: And that's the key. Like you learn from the mistakes. You know one of the things that I have seen in being the difference between especially new agents coming into real estate. Those being successful or those that are very fleeting in the industry is how long their outlook is. Because if people are focused on short term , right. If you're focused on “Oh I've gotta get 3 byers in 3 weeks” and that doesn't happen than you get discouraged. OK “Well I've gotta get 3 buyer sin 3 months now, that's a little bit more reasonable”.  But when people start doing things like prospecting and mailing campaigns and maybe they subscribe to do a lead platform like Zillow or Sync or Boom Town or whatever it is, people always expect immediate results and they don't have a long forecast because things don't happen overnight. And if somebody goes into something with a plan of you know “I am gonna try this for 3 months and see if it works” and then 3 months in they haven't…they barely got the system set up and they don't know how to work it yet and they're not getting the results and they throw the hands up and they say “I have been paying for this for 3 months and it's not working”.  People who go in with that kind of mindset have such a completely different and less successful experience than somebody who is like “You know what I am gonna go into it, I am gonna give it 3 months to learn it, 6 months to execute and then I am gonna evaluate in the last 3 months and I am gonna commit a year to this and see if this is a system that I want to continue with”.  And people who go in and they study it and work at it diligently…It's like a CRM right? What's the best CRM? The one you use. Doesn't matter the software. Not to be a jab Nate. [Nathan]: No it's OK. [Chris]: [laughter] But you know when it comes to the fortitude of how well somebody is gonna be…How likely their success is. If they have a long outlook right, if they have a 2 year business plan and something happens to them at months 3 but they know that they're in it for 2 years they're a lot less likely to be negatively impacted by whatever that event is at month 3. They're like “I got a long way to go”. And then they just get back on the saddle. Versus who is like “OK I am gonna give it 6 months”. And than they come in and they barely have enough time to set up their email account. It's gonna be a different story. [Christian]: Yeah I think…I think realistic expectations are important. You know I would say if you want to be successful and you know specifically in real estate or just business in general, don't be a…don't be afraid to take risks. Because if you're afraid of failure like you're never gonna take a big enough risk to really make a difference in your life. [Chris]: Couldn't agree more. [Christian]: Like Nate saying you know…you know like the more you fail hopefully you learn from that and that is what leads to success, not playing it safe and never trying. I know for me I learned this pretty early on form my military career you know because I joined…I joined the army at 25. And my whole goal was special forces.  You know I am like “If I am gonna serve than I am gonna serve the best”. And the elite and whatever. So I knew going into it that it was gonna be a tough road. And I guess it was physically demanding, hardest thing I have ever done but as a mental part that really kills people. There is you know total studs out there that you know as soon as it starts getting tough or inconvenient they are like “I am done I am out”.  You know but one of the things I have learned going through special forces assessment that the qualification course is you know instead of kind of doing the…what we do with the procrastination, instead of saying “I'll start exercising tomorrow, I'll start doing this tomorrow”. You kind of reverse it and say “I will quit tomorrow”. But you know “This road march sucks. Plenty of miles wearing 60 plus pounds. I will quit tomorrow. I will quit in a kilometer. I will quit when I get over that hill. OK there's just one more hill and I will quit than”. And before you know you've finished. Before you know you've succeeded. [Chris]: I like that. That's awesome. [Christian]: It is just these mental games you kind of learn to like keep yourself you know acknowledge the reality that “Yeah it sucks but I am gonna keep going. I am gonna do my best”. You know and that's all you can do. You do your best and before you know it you realize you can actually withstand mental and physically a lot more than you think you can. [Nathan]: I'll…I can talk about this all day but I will leave it with this. I admire a true…I carry him around in my hand all day long because I you know we have talked about my headset and I have to have my little tricks. But Ritual says “Practice your craft. Whatever shape or form that may be late into the evening with relentless giber. Embrace the fear, let go off perfection. Allow yourself to fail. Welcome the obstacles. Forget the results. Give yourself over to the passion with every fiber of your art and live out the rest of your days trying to do better. I can't promise you'll succeed in the way our culture inappropriately defines the term but I can absolutely guarantee you that you will deeply become acquainted with who you truly are. You'll touch and exude passion and discover what it means to truly be alive”.  [Christian]: That's enough said. [Nathan]: Yeah love that man [laughter]. [Chris]: That's good stuff. So for real estate agents we ride an emotional roller coaster. We have periods where we're like “Oh great this is awesome. Get a client, somebody who actually wants to work with us”. And then “Oh man that client they already signed a brokerage agreement with somebody else”. Or “They went out and they bought a home that was a Feesbo and they're now not gonna give me a commission”. Or “They went and bought a new construction and they put me down as the agent”.  Than we've got all sorts of ups and downs. You know. “Got the first contract”. And then the financing falls through right before closing. And I mean it just happens over and over and over in our industry. So guys how do you take a beating and get back up the next day? [Christian]: Yeah it's a good question. I mean it's how the mentality and how what we were talking about applies to real estate specifically is…I don't know I mean Nate just made it kind of simple or whatever but just do your best. Don't worry about what everyone else around you is doing. You know because there is so much especially culturally with kind of the politics and kind of the…what's the word I am looking for, not segregation but you know, the extremes. You know people are very polarized. [Chris]: Oh yeah. [Christian]: Very polarized. So you know it could be very easy to…I don't know what point I am trying to make here. You can cut this out [laughter]. So I guess how it applies to real estate. [Chris]: Yeah how do real estate agents keep taking a beating? How do they get up every morning, get punched in the throat and then go to bed and wake up the nest day with a smile in the face to get punched in the throat again. [Christian]: Yeah I would say just keep…you know trying your best. Do your best. Don't worry about what everyone around you is doing. You know because I mean it's very easy to get cynical and complain in this industry and you know I am a big believer that complaining and negativity is a cancer. You know it spreads like it infects you know culture infects an office, affects those around you. Not in a good way you know.  So I try to tell myself “OK when I find myself complaining or thinking to myself hey this other agent is a complete marron like I go out of my way to like OK maybe they're just new, maybe they're having an off day or maybe they are a marron”. But it doesn't really do any good to like spread that around my office [laughter]. You know. You know so I am just like “OK note to self don't do that. Learn from this”. You know learn from other people's either just traditional things that I don't like or the things I think are wrong. Instead of just complaining about it you know do something about it and you know maybe they need help you know. Maybe they didn't get good mentoring or their brokerage sucks or something. You know just do what you can to help yourself help those that you know ultimately effect and do thing that you can have a change on, have an effect on. You know things that you can't change just write it off your back, let it go. Just take care of yourself. [Nathan]: Let's just go back. How…what's the answer to the question? I don't have one. That is it. I honestly I don't…I don't have one. I think you have to lose a lot. I think you have to fail a lot to appreciate what you have. Because I think it's hard for a lot of people to appreciate what they truly have because they never went without.  I see it a lot. You know it's always the wanting of more, more, more. I can tell you form experience of having nothing. Literally having nothing. I am thankful for what I got every day. So…You know you want to really find out go and test yourself. Go sleep outside for 2 nights with a blanket and nothing else but a cardboard and find your food. And literally do something like that. Do something extreme. Really crazy like that sounds crazy. But go do it.  Just experience for 2 days what it is like to be homeless or something. You know I could think of crazier things but that's just a good one. And then maybe you will take a step back and appreciate what you do have. Again being grateful is I don't know for some people it is a hard [censored] thing. And we should be more of it. So mindset. You are who you are. You control you know what you can control and I can't control you or anybody else. But you can as an individual. So make that choice everyday and have a great day. I would start there. [Christian]: Yeah that's an interesting point because you have been thinking about this a lot because I have an 8 year old kid who you know has a pretty…pretty damn good life [laughter] and doesn't know it you know. And so thinking about like you can try to teach gratitude which is obviously what we're doing you know as parents. But you know the reality is like without the perspective of like never having known what is like to be really hungry or cold or you know lonely without friends or whatever like it's really hard to teach them so we're trying to teach them “OK responding well.”  Just because you know if you're like “This is my expectation up here and nothing in life ever meets it” you're always gonna be dissatisfied. You know versus kind of a more realistic like “Hey I got up in the morning. There is lung in my air and I am upright on 2 feet. Like life's good. [laughter] you know I am not in crying pain or whatever”. You know. So there's always…always something good that you can focus on as far as being grateful.  I think a huge cancer in our society is…has come to this envy class welfare thing where essentially you know we may be like “Hey I am doing pretty good” and then someone on the news brings stuff up well “You know the richest people in the world are getting richer but the middle class blah blah blah”. And like “How does that affect me?” It doesn't. I was fine until a minute ago until I find out someone has aa billion dollars more than I do and now I am just pissed off.  It's like their success doesn't make me less successful. It's all like envy class welfare politicizing all of this you know stuff like that keeps up pissed off and miserable and ungrateful. You know like focus on what you do have. It could be a whole lot worse and don't always be wanting what someone else has. You know. [Chris]: That's awesome. You know one of the things that I think helps agents when they're…you know when they get beat down and they're starting their career and they have those big failures, is you know just look at it in perspective. We try and keep a support system around them so that they're not going off and wallowing on their own. We try and encourage them to focus on the behavior. Focus on what you need to do. Focus on the actions. Focus on reaching out to your clients or your database and creating a great relationship with them. Focus on doing something to improve somebody's day.  So if your client fell through and you know got stood up at a showing, well now you've got some time that you can go and try and brighten somebody else's day. Somebody that is in your network that you can remind them what you do but also at the same time do something nice for them. To let them know that you're thinking of them.  And I find that when agents do that and they go out and they show gratitude towards everybody else which is awesome. I love that you brought up gratitude. It changes their mindset right. If I am in a really bad mood and I go and do something great for somebody I am not gonna be in that bad mood for a long time. Especially if I can feel good about what I was able to do for someone.  And you know if you get stood up in an appointment you get that deal that falls through just take that as an excuse to have some extra free time to do something good in somebody else's life and eventually that's gonna all pay off as dividends. Because I think too many…too many agents, too many people focus on the short term. They focus on “What are my numbers? What are my numbers? What do my numbers need to be? Why aren't they there?”. And they don't focus on the behaviors. They don't focus on “Am I doing the right thing?”. They are going to eventually lead to a better performance. So I think that's kind of the big thing that I have seen. I don't know. Hopefully it helps answers… [Christian]: I mean I would say just kind of say in wrapping up to some up all this in general having a good attitude which you know starts with those right thoughts, the true thoughts that live in your head you know will lead you to gratitude which will lead you to empathy and hopefully understand the people and be more compassionate will lead you to just being a better more happy satisfied human being [laughter]. Which you know how can you not be successful in life if like that's your outlook. [Chris]: People do business with people they know like and trust. You're happy… [Nathan]: You have a choice people, folks. You have a choice. [Chris]: Yeah if you've got a great outlook, people are gonna want to do business with you. You got a great outlook and you know what you're doing people are gonna want to do business with you and they're gonna refer you to other people. Simple as that. So thanks for tuning in everybody. This has been another episode of re:Think Real Estate. We'll catch you next Monday.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Ever wonder why some people leave a bad taste in your mouth after meeting them? Successful marketing requires building a relationship with your audience. Many real estate professionals avoid this and instead grab a bullhorn and shout at their audience expecting the same results. Tune in for today's episode to hear us talk about how to NOT be annoying in your interactions with the public. The re:think real estate podcast is hosted by Chris Lazarus, Nathan White, and Christian Harris. Thank you for tuning in. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Audio length 30:15 [music] [Chris]: Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech. [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Christian Harris and Nathan White. What's going on guys? [Christian]: Hey fellas what's happening? Alright [laughter]. Today we're gonna talk about being annoying [laughter].  [Chris]: That's a great intro for that Christian. Before we get started Nate how is your CRM doing? [Nathan]: Yeah…anyway… [Chris]: [laughter] Alright. So yeah, we definitely want to talk about being annoying and how not to do that. Today's episode we're talking about marketing. And our good friend Joe Rand over from JoeRand.com just came out with an article a few days ago which was “Stop being annoying-The 3 phases of communication technology and why nobody likes us”. So great article. Nate you found this. Why don't you tell us a little bit about it? [Nathan]: Well I didn't find it. It happened…you know I found it, whatever. I saw it. It was funny because I was having thoughts like Joe was having and Joe was much better with words than I, that's why he has a couple of books right? But I just…I was getting annoyed because like I get on Facebook right and it's just…it's just…It's not even Facebook anymore. What we used to know right. It's kind of like you know how MTV changed. It's all marketing. It's just marketing. And a lot of it it's realtors who won. I mean I'm not…I hate to be that guy to pick on our industry but again we got a content. It's horrible but again you know whether it's from…And I mean I am looking here right now. Some golf advert to realtor, to realtor, to realtor. Like it's just nonstop and it's poor. And I don't know I feel like we find a good you know what would you call it, a medium, and than we go and ruin it and people hate us for it. And Joe you know wrote the article about how to stop being annoying. He offers a 3-part solution. Phase 1 the excitement. Phase 2 solicitation. 3 is the protection.  [Chris]: Let's talk about that. [Nathan]: Well let's talk about it but I want to get to the point real quick on this and then we go back to the 3 phases.  And then he offers he says “What's the solution?”. He says “Well we can't do anything about everyone else”.  I agree 100%.  “But we can police our own behavior”. Instead of using email, social media, phones to make annoying calls that only serve our own interest we need to focus our outbound marketing efforts on providing a service to other people. Think about what they need not what you need.  [Christian]: But being client centric? What. That's crazy. Thinking about other people.  [Chris]: I've never heard of that before.  [Nathan]: I don't think we've ever talked about that have we? [Chris]: No it's completely out of line with this show.  [Nathan]: So Phase 1. Phase 1 is excitement. [Chris]: And so phase 1 like I think he compared it to people getting an answering machine right. Everybody got an answering machine and everybody wanted to see the red light blinking and then telemarketers just ruined it. And then nobody has an answering machine now and people barely check their voicemail. [Christian]: Sure I mean I think the idea is you know I mean there's quite a number of books on you know technology and evolution of it and this plays right into that theme of when something new comes out it's exciting. Everyone wants it. You know it goes back to like the days of pre-TV with you know door to door salesman. You know like being at home is boring so people wanted people to come to the door.  And then that got saturated and you know you had the mail. People enjoyed getting mail and then you know solicitations and advertisement got in the mail and now people you know hover over the recycling bin throwing away mail.  And you know now you're getting that you know with social media. Like you used to enjoy getting on social media and checking in with friends and whatever and now you have to whip 30 you know half of it is solicitations from agents or other marketers, you know, as agents. We're getting solicited for leading this or growing your business that you know by who knows who. You know so self-described gurus. And you know now you have to filter there. Now you know it takes away the joy of what once was. Looking forward to getting online or looking forward to getting the mail or looking forward to someone getting to your house. Now it's annoying. [Chris]: Yeah we find something that we enjoy. We get excited about it. New technology and all the advertisers start catching on to it. They start saying “Oh we can reach people in a new way through this technology”.  And then they start soliciting and soliciting and hounding us left and right through the mediums that we're enjoying. And that's the end game right? Because that's how these platforms make money. It's though advertising. They're advertising companies.  And then what happens next that's what Joe says is phase 3. That's protection. We stop paying attention to them. We develop coping mechanisms to not be solicited and not listen or not pay attention to the ads that are coming on. And I think that this is a big reason why our attention span has now become that's less than a goldfish. Because that has been a coping mechanism to pay…to not pay attention to all of these solicitations that we're getting.  [Christian]: Yeah I mean I would say that part of it is just a medium of social media. Not necessarily being advertised. You know it's you know there's another big leaf. There is a message in that medium so it's not just the only thing they're consuming is the message you know but consuming a message via print versus auditory, versus you know social media. You know like it's gonna do different things in your brain. You respond differently you know.  But it doesn't help that we now have all this extra white noise to filter through to get to what we actually wanna see which is typically you know friends and family and not solicitors trying and sell us something. [Chris]: Absolutely and so let's talk about how we cannot be annoying. You know I friend people in real estate all the time and last week somebody reached out on Facebook, sent me this message. This person is in real estate.  This is what they said “Hey Christopher I almost didn't message you because I don't want to come across spammy. LOL. My wife and I have had some great result with “Thrive”. More energy [cough] mental clarity, weight management. I even sleep better. It might be for you and I think or it might not and that's OK. Just wanted to share what's working for me. Would you be open to more info?” There's absolutely nothing of value that that person delivered to me. And it's just… [Nathan]: If you're not sleeping well it could be of value. [Chris]: Well do I want more energy or do I want to sleep better? I mean does…is it just me or those 2 are completely different ends of the spectrum?  [Nathan]: [censored] I just want my kid to stay in his bed at night and not interrupt my sleep so if they can fix that for me in that email. [Chris]: [laughter] I mean it's what has become of people. And that person is in real estate and they are paddling a multi-level marketing product on the side. I mean do you think that their real estate marketing may end up following similar pattern? I don't think it's a farfetched to actually see that leap being made. [Nathan]: I think-no go ahead sorry. [Chris]: No I mean I…kind of the point I kind of make here is if you're just going out and peddling something in front of somebody they're gonna ignore you. Those are the coping mechanisms that we have developed now. It's no longer…like we don't like being sold things.  [Nathan]: No I am attracted to the brands or things that eat my curiosity. That I don't feel like they're jammed down my throat.  And so I'll use a perfect example and in no form or shape I represent them but recently I have been doing the Purple Carrot Meal Delivery right. And I just hashtag it on my Ohio running realtor Instagram. You know “#purplecarrotblablabla”. The…I take pictures of the food which is really good. But I have had more people reach out to me just through organically saying “Hey can you tell me a little bit more about Purple Carrot?”.  I am not…I am not on there going “Purple Carrot is the bomb bla bla bla”. I put what the meal is. I state you know whether it is cous cous or whatever it may be, insert a joke there and take a really nice picture and then put it out there.  And I have had a lot of people private message me or DM me or whatever you wanna call it and say “Hey can you tell me more about it?”. I am not forcing it down anybody's throat. I am not saying you have to have this”. But it has created interest.  I am a brand ambassador for Prevail Botanicals. You don't see my thread on Facebook with Prevail every day. We use a hashtag. We don't jam it down your throat. Have that people say “Hey what stuff do you use with your sore muscles and your AT pains from running and bla bla bla” and I say “It's Prevail”.  If they wanna know more than they'll ask but I feel it's the same with real estate. Like if somebody is really genuinely interested in real estate they're gonna ask you. Just...you don't have to jam it down people's throats. At least I believe that you're a [censored] realtor. Like just I don't know I feel like we're so over the top. Like over the time. Like “What do you like better this back porch or that back porch?” “What I like is when you don't post [censored] like that personally but…”  [laughter] Like nobody cares right. I just…They don't care about interest rates unless they are buying a house. They don't care about houses unless they are buying a house. So that's me and it works for me. It doesn't mean it works for everybody else. And my colleague, Mr. Harris, has his hand up over there so I am gonna let him talk on that. I am gonna thank you Christian.  [Christian]: Alright. I am gonna play the devil's advocate here for a sec. What if someone…What if someone is listening and thinking “Well how do we know they're real estate agents there?” Where is the balance between letting someone know and being in sales and annoying when you talk about houses? [Nathan]: Because there is a way to be subtle about it. Like you know…like I don't…I just…like when I go to a closing the biggest thing that I do other than my hashtag that's on a separate entity but I check into a closing and I put “Doing a closing thing”. People know…I mean most people know, I don't want to say everybody, but they know that I am a realtor or that in some way I am doing that business. And there's other ways.  I don't know. I just don't want my social media feed filled with that crap and guess what I have taken the option of doing. I have taken the choice of filtering all that out. You know. It's that old advertisement. You don't like something on the TV change the channel. I have changed the channel. So… [Chris]: I think it all comes down to the message. Marketing is required. The marketing is the…it is the whole process of staying top of mind in our sphere but there are different ways that we can do it right.  So an example is, Nathan you just brought up rates. Your typical buyer doesn't care about the rate. Unless they're very savvy. They care about the payment. So if your post on social media “Up rates just jumped again” and all you talk about is the rate than that doesn't really provide any value to them. That your target audience may know that you have something to do with real estate but they're not really paying attention to that message.  On the other hand if you say “Rates just jumped again” so…and then you kind of put that in context and say “Well a $200.000 house now the payment went from on average about 12.000 to now about 13.000” that means something a little bit more that is easier for somebody outside of the industry to understand.  I think that marketing involves us putting ourselves in the potential client shoes. The shoes of the consumer, to understand what is important to them.  If you talk about due diligence right they don't care about due diligence. They buy a house once every 10 years. They don't need to know that stuff every day. They need to know what is going on in the community. Right.  Realtors should be the digital mayor of the community. They should be out there saying “Well we have these festivals going on. I'll see you there”. Or share a personal story that really somebody can resonate with that may reflect around what you do professionally that gives some sort of authenticity and come insight to show that you're human and that you're not just trying to sell them on something. Because that's…that's been the focal point for everything that we do. That's the idea behind client's centricity. Is putting their needs first. We need to do that in our marketing too.  [Christian]: I think you being up an interesting point. It's a lot of it comes down to marketing you know that is that. And in my experience yeah the majority of what is being peddled out there is marketing in real estate you know by franchises, by gurus, by trainers is pretty much the opposite of you know Joe Rants “Don't be annoying”.  You know they say “You gotta be top of mind”. And to them that's making your phone calls and pestering people and going online. And if you go “Oh by the way if you know anyone that can buy or sell a house” like everyone is taught to say that so everyone says it so no one…so it means nothing to no one. People are just like “Oh yeah that's what a realtor says” you know. It's like a stand up. You know that's bad marketing. That is low bar. I am not thinking I am just told to do this and I am gonna do it and supposedly that will give me result. They probably are not the results that you want.  [Chris]: I think you just hit the nail in the head there.  [Nathan]: I do too. [Chris]: Thinking. And that's the problem. If you're gonna market effectively you have to think about what the message is that is gonna solve the problem for your consumer. [Christian]: Well you have to start with who your consumer is. You know if it is the population that you asked well there is your first problem. Like that should not be your targeting market. You know. [Chris]: You've got different segments right. You've got …there might be an itch that you work. And that might be your thing to go after her whether that we based off of a previous profession, a hobby. Whether you're running or cycling or you just love giving back in the community and you're in the philanthropy space. You have geographic which is you can market based off of where you live and where you do business or you can go and just focus on something specific in real estate right.  If you focus on if you're in the equestrian market and you've grown up in the equestrian world and you understand horse ranches better than anybody else that is something that you can specifically market to but the fact is that no matter what you're marketing to, what segment that is you've gotta find out a way to provide value to them.  It's geographic. Share what's going on in the community. I can't tell you how many times I have heard that said, “Share what is going on in the community“ and how little people actually do it.  [Christian]: Yeah I mean even if you don't have all that figured out just be an interesting person [laughter]. I mean like I think like Peter Lorimer or something you know. Obviously he's got a big personality like British accent and stuff but like this guy has hands in everything. And it's all really interesting to watch or listen to. You know, and I get the impression he is trying to sell to me. Like it's always helping agents or you know “Look at this cool thing, this is what I am doing in my life right now”. Like it's never “Hey if you're looking to buy or sell you know in Los Angeles…” or whatever you know yeah I mean you could figure it out.  So going back to kind of our initial conversation about Joe Rants 3 things it's as you were giving that example you know you received a social message whatever it was. It is interesting that we have gotten you know most people think we are related to this. We've gotten so far along the hiatus to the sales pitch that they don't even pretend it's not a sales pitch. They just come up like “Hey I hope this isn't annoying to you” or “I hope this doesn't come off as spammy” [laughter] which really means “This is a standard sales pitch”. [Chris]: Yeah you know “I am about to annoy the hell out of you”. [Christian]: As if that's more authentic and will make it less salesly or you're more likely to you know like they think that that's they know that's a barrier and they think that admitting it will be less a barrier. When in reality that's just like “Oh thankfully I didn't read the whole message. Delete”. Just put it up front so I can delete quickly you know.  [Chris]: Definitely. I mean my response to him was” you know “You should have stuck with your gut. [laughter]. It was definitely spammy and annoying. And shouldn't have messaged me.” But agents do that all the time. Real estate agents they do the same thing that multi-level marketing people are doing. “Hey haven't talked to you in a while. Wanted to reach out and let you know I am in real estate now. Do you know anybody that is looking to buy or sell in the next you know 30-60-90 days”. Whatever it is.  Agents do that all the time and there's…it's actually really easy to not do that. Like if you meet somebody and they ask you what you do the first thing you're gonna say is “Real estate”. And they're just gonna come down and immediately ask you how the market is. That is the instantly question that the buyers or anybody that you meet are gonna ask you once they find out that you're in real estate. So what do most agents do? Well most agents the moment they get asked that question they say “The market is great. The market is great. When are you looking to move?” or “Are you looking to move?”. They immediately position themselves for the time share pitch. And that's the high pressure.  [Christian]: That's desperate. [Chris]: They come off as desperate. And the people that are on the opposite side they don't feel like they're on a conversation anymore. They feel like they're being cornered into becoming a lead. And people don't want to be considered a lead. They want to be considered you know their name and they don't want to be you know a prospect.  So a great way that that can be changed is instead of asking them “Well you know are you looking to buy or sell?”. “Who is your realtor?” “Oh I don't have a realtor I am not in the market”. “Oh great well not everybody is in the market at all time. So who do you call when you need to file your tax assessment? Who do you call when you're trying to figure out how much money you should spend on the renovation and you want to make sure that you don't get negative equity?” “Like these are kind of free services, they're complimentary services that we offer to everybody in the community as part of our company and I'd love to be able to be that person for you if you ever need to reach out. If some of these people end up using me to buy or sell some of us don't but it's not a big deal but we're here for you and we want to provide value”.  Doing something like that the conversation goes a whole different way. People have respect for you for not trying to sell them. They thing that you're a professional and that you don't need to beg for the business and it's just a different impression that we can leave on the people that we meet. [Nathan]:  That's just…it makes me think of this example of why we have a bad name. Next door you know the social site, right? OK right so somebody the other day posted “Hey I got friends looking to move in the neighborhood. If you know anybody looking to sell let me know.” Of course it got like 5 responses right. And one of those responses is somebody I know that is getting ready to least and bla bla bla. What they didn't realize as soon as they responded the person said “Well I am an agent and I've got clients looking in this area, what do you have and I'll let you…” It's the classic [censored] you know. They didn't have anything.  [Christian]: Switch.  [Nathan]: It was just the baiting switch. And my client was just like “Man that is so shady” and I was like “And people wonder why we have such a bad name. When you do [censored] like that it's just horrible”. I like…I wanted to message everybody in that thread and “Hey you do know this person is an agent and they're actually not looking for their family member, they're trying to find new clients. Like it's such a [censored] shady way to do things”.  [Christian]: Do you guys follow the broke agent? [Chris]: [laughter] Yeah on occasion.  [Nathan]: Yeah you're talking to him [laughter]. [Christian] Alright. You know there's a funny you know GIF meme he posted the other day. It was like it was a clip from one of The pirates of the Caribbean movies where Jack Sparrow is being chased across the beach by a mob, you know. It's like I think the subtext was like “You know when someone posts online about their selling their house and these agents just the mob of agents chasing them you know”. It's like pretty much sums it up. [Nathan]: Yeah they go “Opportunity oh my God lets start salivating and jumping over each other”. [Chris]: So lets talk about that. If someone posted online that they want an agent what do you do? [Christian]: They usually won't though. They're usually more cryptic like “I am moving to this area” or “I am fixing my house up to sell”. Like you…I mean no one goes out there and says “Hey I am looking for an agent”. [Chris]: Well like OK so whatever the message is whether that is cryptic or direct what do you do? [Christian]: Well usually there is over 150 replies by other desperate agents by the time I read it so I usually do nothing.   [Chris]: OK. Nate do you do anything on those posts? [Nathan]: It depends. And sometimes yes I will. But I try to spin it from what you said. What value I can give them upfront. And part of that I think it's just being honest you know. So…you know again if they choose you than great. I have never had it happen. Actually no. I take that back. I had person that I did speak with who actually didn't list their home but they appreciated that I was just honest. They felt that everybody reached out to him swung him some line of [censored] and I just told him what I felt. But we all know that's me so… [Chris]: Well you're good at that. So one of the things that has worked for me because I actually have gotten some business off of some of those posts. Everybody is gonna comment “Oh so and so is a great realtor. So and so is a great realtor”. What I have done in the past is I have reached out to them directly. Send them a private message.  [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: If I knew them personally I would send them an email or text. I would just say “Hey I saw your post online. I know you're gonna have a million people that are hounding you for business. Just be careful who you hire. Make sure you vet them properly. If you need anything just know that I am in real estate and…” Throw a couple of credential in there but just let them know that if they have any questions you know we're here to answer it.   I have had more conversations with people like that and I have received probably 6 or 7 referrals off of threads where people were like hundreds steep. I have received 6 or 7 of those referrals where I have messaged different agents and let them know the exact same thing. And people appreciate that. They don't like being sold. They don't like being pressured. And it's just a different environment. You get out of this competition thread and you get into this 1 on 1 message. And people like feeling like they're the center of the universe so you just make them feel that way.  [Nathan]: I agree.  [Chris]: Good so I like being right. [Christian]: So awkward silence yeah. How do you sum up this episode? What are your takeaways here other than don't be annoying? [Chris]: Yeah I mean we've gotta be careful with our message. It's so easy to get out there and just want to tell everybody that you're in real estate. But I think that agents need to put some thought behind what they're saying. And really think about how it's gonna come across to the people that they're delivering the message to.  We've talked about proving value throughout the history of the show. And I think that now more than ever that's gonna be more and more important. Especially with the rise of the high byer where they're getting ads saying “Hey it's so easy don't deal with all the hassle. Don't deal with being hounded by 100 agents when you comment online. Don't deal with staging or showing or any of that just let us sell it.” And people are so willing to avoid us and to avoid the showings and the solicitations that they're willing to give up 20-30% of the total value of their house just to not do that. And I think that that is absolutely insane. So we've got to shift our focus. Anything else guys? [Christian]: I would say if this is confusing to you as an agent forget everything that's you know your broker or the better agents told you about it in prospecting and hounding people and being top of mind. Just think to yourself “Hey would I like someone else to do this to me?”  If the answer is “No I don't want someone calling me pretending like they care about me just to ask if I am looking to buy or sell this year” well don't do it.  If you don't want someone knocking on your door without you inviting them over, don't [censored] do it. You know I mean like it's really not that hard. Stop making excuses about “Well this is my job and if I don't tell them or bug the [censored] out of people, if I am not annoying than I am not doing my job”. Well figure out how to do it not annoying or you will find another job to do.  [Chris]: And I'll just add on to that because calling is important. It's not to say “Don't call your prospects” but when you call them don't say “Hey do you…I can sell your house. I can do this”. [Nathan]: [laughter] Don't lead with that.  [Christian] Provide some value. Yeah. [Chris]: You know provide value. “Hey what can I do to help? I am sure you're getting a million calls right now” or “It's been a while since we've touched base. What…Where are you in the process?”. Make it about them. [Christian] Right and I will add. The value is not you calling them as an agent. You know I have had…I have seen online threads where basically an agent has been told their whole career to provide value but they don't know what that is. They think just them showing up is them providing value.  You know like it's…It reminds me of the scene from Office Space where you know the guy is being grilled like “What exactly did you say you do here?” “I AM A PEOPLE PERSON. WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THAT?!” [laughter]. “I PROVIDE VALUE. WHY CAN'T ANYONE SEE THAT?” Like you're probably not providing value if people can't see that. [Chris]: Exactly. [Nathan]: Amen. Cool.  [Chris]: Hey any final words? [Nathan]: No. Don't be annoying. I agree that what Christian said, if it would bother you than you probably shouldn't be doing that. Just what sounds like common sense is really not common sense or maybe is that whole adage of the easiest thing to do are the hardest things to get done.  [Chris]: I like it. Alright. Well everybody thank you so much for tuning into our 50th episode of Re:Think Real Estate. We appreciate you tuning in and listening. If you haven't yet please go to the website rtrepodcast.com. Subscribe so you never miss and episode and give us a 5 star review on iTunes and Google Play. We'll catch you next week. Cool.  [music] [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this weeks episode of the Re:Think Real Estate  Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch, K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Tim Hur is the Managing Broker of Point Honors & Associates, a residential real estate firm in Duluth, GA. Tim has built a great firm and has also served on NAR's Fair Housing committee during 2018. Tim joins us to give life to the fair housing conversation and why it's important in our business. He also answers great questions around involvement in the industry and commitment to clients needs. Don't miss this episode. Tune in and listen to your favorite real estate podcast, reThink Real Estate. You can find Tim Hur at https://www.pointhonors.com The re:think real estate podcast is hosted by Chris Lazarus, Nathan White, and Christian Harris. Thank you for tuning in. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 36:42 RTRE 49 – Tim Hur, Managing Real Estate Broker of Point Honors [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Christian Harris and Nathan White. Guys what's going on? [Christian]: Not much. Talking to my favorite people.   [Nathan]: Speak for yourself. But I am glad to be here on recording so that's good. Excited we get to talk about some new stuff. For someone might be boring but I still find it interesting so I am excited about that. And this is about it. [Chris]: How is your CMA going? [Nathan]: My CRM…I am just slightly…I'm doing alright. [Chris]: CRM. I say CMA because Christian was just talking about could services and CRM. You know. [Nathan]: That is something I am still failing at. We won't talk about it. We have a guest and we don't want to bore people. [Chris]: We'll move on. We do. We do have a guest. We have great guest. His name is Tim Hur. For those of you who haven't seen him at NAR events, Tim is the managing broker of Point Honors. His bio is a freaking novel. So we're gonna let Tim. Tim thanks for joining us today.  [Tim]: No thank you so much for the invitation. I really appreciate it. It's a lot of fun.  [Chris]: It's great to have you on. So for…for our audience you have achieved quite a lot of honors. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? And what you're doing. [Tim]: Sure. Thank you so much for that [laughter]. I appreciate that. Well my name is Tim Hur. Unfortunate not related to the fictional character Ben Hur otherwise I would be not selling real estate. Of course. But no I am…I was your 2018 chair, national chair for diversity for NRA based here in Atlanta. And I have been rocking and rolling ever since, been a realtor for what 12,13 years now. Kind of have been doing this right after college.  [Chris]: Nice. So tell us your story. Did…Where did you grow up? How did you get into real estate? Where did you go to school? All the fun stuff. [Tim]: Sure. I was born in Huston. Moved to Atlanta than got too far away. You know, I went to high school here. I went to Georgia Tech right after that. And… [Chris]: [inaudible] [Tim]: I know. [laughter] Either you hate me or you love me. One or the other. But I had a really good opportunity going to real estate. So I got my license and got into real estate right before the crash. So it was really good. We all…I think a lot of us who have endured the pains of early real estate and have been in the industry at least for a while and everyone is complaining about interest rates right now but you know we started real estate when we were selling into it. It was 7,8,9,10,11,12%. So you know.  The market tanked so I moved over to commercial for a little bit. And sustained myself with Doreos [phonetics] and commercial and came right back swinging and we've been…You know we have a small team here. We have about 18 agents in our company and we operate pretty well. So… [Chris]: That's awesome so you were the 2018 national chair for Federal Fair Housing and implementing that. [Tim]: Well slightly. So yeah I was 2018 chair diversity.  [Chris]: Can you tell us on how that went on.  [Tim]: Yeah so the 2018 yeah chair for diversity. [Chris]: OK. [Tim]: So the diversity committee from the national association of realtors we were…one of our tasks was to make sure that we helped launch the commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the fair housing act. So we were…we were very hands on on that last year.  [Chris]: So what was the…like how did that go? What did you do for the 50th anniversary? I know I saw you at several events. But what was the whole…What did NAR put together for that? [Tim]: Sure. So you know a lot of us you know we think of fair housing and fair housing violations more as…I mean this...It is obviously a very dry subject and a very boring subject at times but it is very instrumental and very important. But a lot of us put their housing as a risk. More than something that you can violate… [Christian]: You can't [laughter] [laughter].  [Tim]: …Trouble and then we learn about it. But really we were trying to take it different aspect of it and try show that fair housing really should be implemented in the beginning where you really should know about fair housing.  And the 50th anniversary was very, very instrumental and very…is very important because as realtors we are on the wrong side of the law. Back in 1924 our code of ethics actually said that we would not be instrumental in introducing members of the community that would actually bring down poppy values. It was a direct attack on you know Asians, Blacks, Hispanics. So there was actually red lining and we were instrumental in doing that. Obviously we…that's why it was very important. [Chris]: We as realtors, not… [Tim]: Right. Realtors [laughter]. Yeah that was in the code of ethics. And you know can you…Nobody really believes that 50 years ago that we were actually fighting against fair housing.  And you know obviously people don't know this as well but you know Atlanta has a very strong history with Dr. Martin Luther King and he actually was a very big pioneer in fair housing. And the day after the assassination of Dr. King, about a week later was when the fair housing act was signed.  So it kind of…you know it kind of…there was a lot of things that went out to it. And realtors got smart and the legal issues got smart and we started putting restrictions and covenants. And you know building you know, fair housing violations into them. But now it's obviously, it's all been taken away.  You know as realtors or you know, people that are in the real estate industry we are now looking beyond race and all the…classes at the fair housing act and trying to include LGBT queue housing rights and stuff like that. So we are looking at the future as well to make sure that stuff like this does not happen again.  [Nathan]: So question for you than Tim, and I don't want this to sound ignorant.  [Tim]: No no. It's OK.  [Nathan]: Right [laughter] you know, like fair housing you said it sounds boring but it's not but then again how big of an issue is it? Like it's not…Like I just don't…my mind doesn't think that way to say “Oh we can't take you here because of this, that or you know redlining as we talk” or steering. My mind does not work like that. Like it just… [Tim]: And that's like…that's the point. Right. So a lot of us…And that's why it was very important. Not a lot of us don't think to vio…Intentionally violate the fair housing act. Nobody goes out and says “I am gonna discriminate tomorrow” or “I am not gonna do this and that”.  We do it unintentionally and it brings up…that's why it was brought up to light. You know when we…for example you know there is issues such as you know I know that you know we as realtors and tidal companies you know there is a lot of D distinctions where it says “This property cannot be sold to somebody of black descend or Asian descent”. It is actually built into the legal description. [Chris]: I saw somebody post one of those online the other day. Yeah. [Tim]: Right isn't that crazy? [Chris]: Yeah and it's the first time I have been in real estate since 2010, that's the first time I have ever seen it. [Tim]: Yeah and you…it's still there. What people don't realize is that Tidal companies they assure over it because it is illegal. They don't really remove that portion where it says, this portion you know “This must sold…”.  So you know a lot of it is awareness but a lot of us don't go out and say “I am going to go and discriminate against you know, somebody in some, you know one of the protected classes.” We just don't think that way. That's why it's very important. That's why NAR really…and a lot of people took this as a moral of risk issue. Our committee was very…we were very adamant about you know rewriting the fair housing camp book. And making sure that everyone is tarter at the beginning. Yeah not to intentionally violate but a lot of us just don't know. And we just don't know. Sometimes you need a refresher.  [Christian]: So I have a question so if some would say, I have heard you know going back… [Chris]:[inaudible] [Christian]: Yes. And I am in Seattle. So you know it should be much more progressive and more focused on… [Tim]: Sure. [Christian]: …Discrimination. That sort of thing. You know I have heard you know very well articulated points that you know the history of real estate is reared with if not has a lot of racism and discrimination in history. And sounds like back in the day NAR and probably the whole real estate industry as a whole is on the wrong side of this issue. When did that change? Was that kind of the process of the civil right movement as society started shifting? Or.. [Tim]: Yeah I think…So I think you know I can't speak on behalf…I am not a history bud, but you know a portion of it you know when FHA started issuing loans. You know a lot of after World War 2 a lot of our veterans wanted to have the white big fences and to live in suburbs. And they were denied that because of FHA insurability and saying there whole fair housing violations here.  You know, as people came back and they were promised they could live in suburbs and they don't have to live in you know in the city limits sometimes and you know a lot of this stuff that were not allowed they weren't given the same rights so to speak. Some were African Americans but you know we also have to look at you know women. Women were not allowed to own real estate without the permission of their fathers or their husbands until certain parts of the country until the 70s or 80s. So you know, this is a very recent event. These are not stuff that again you know you talk about Seattle being very progressive and you know and California LA but you know fair housing violations come all the time.  [Chris]: Really? No way. [Tim]: I know that there are several instances where I have been, when I go around the country for renters. Renters they see an interracial couple. And the landlord is like “No not renting to you”. But in the beginning it was fine because they look at the last name and they were like “Sure sure sure”. And than they come and meet the tenant and they're like “I don't want to rent to you anymore”. Why? “So what's really the case. Why are you not renting to me?”  So you know there is a lot of those…there is instances and maybe there are one offs sometime but I think that if you talk to some of our women or if you talk to some of our multicultural clients or agents they may have a lot of different stories. And it was really interesting to hear a lot of stories.  You know there was one case in Chicago. There was one of the champions that I know. And he was talking about how he opened a real estate company and people just kept his phone lines busy so that he cannot sell real estate. So you know back in the day we didn't have email so you know all we did was we had a group of people keeping his phone lines constantly busy so that nobody could call his real estate office. [Christian]: Wow. [Chris]: Because he was black. [Christian]: That's messed up. [Tim]: That's crazy. Yeah it's crazy. You would never think that. That's just something they thought about. [Chris]: You know what year it was? What year was that? Do you know? [Tim]: This is right…I think this is…I don't know. He does speak often. He is at the VLNAIR [phonetics] conference. Well…But yeah it's crazy just to hear this. [Chris]: It's nuts.  [Christian]: That's in our generation. [laughter]. [Tim]: Yeah.  [Christian]: That's… [Tim]: It's only a few years. So what can we do? [Christian]: Yeah for like your situation you're talking about with the…the rental discrimination with like mixed race couple or whatever. I mean what sort of resort they have because I mean let's say “Why don't you rent to us?”. I would imagine most landlords aren't gonna be dumb enough to be like “Well because you're black”.  [Tim]: You actually would be surprised.  [Christian]: OK. [Tim]: Actually you would be surprised. So you would actually be very surprised. And a lot of realtors you have to be very careful as well.  [Christian]: Sure. [Tim]: Because you know and you know the way that you…You have to be puritan. If you report it you have a special dedicated line. You know you have to really be careful and they'll make the calls. [Christian]: Sure. [Tim]: You know if it's not any to you and they deny you. They may not sustain. They may not claim race or they may not claim sexual orientation or whatever the case is or classes. But they can…if you are denied they will call the landlord back and see if it is available for rent. And if it is they will try to go through the whole process you know with a very different case scenario. And see why they wouldn't rent. So you know if you don't report it, it doesn't get reported. So we encourage everyone. If you see violations, you have to report it. [Christian]: Sure. Now I would imagine that the violations, well I mean you know prior to the fair housing act you know it was just kind of part for the course. But I would imagine with those initially enacted those violations were much more obvious you know as they were struggling to civil rights and racial discrimination stuff. I would imagine it is much subtler these days. I mean what are you seeing as the most common violations you know and I would imagine a lot of those are even unknowing violations. What are you seeing now?  [Tim]: Yeah I don't know if there is any common violations. Right. And again nobody goes out there and says “I am going to discriminate against a certain race or you know religion.” It's you know…it may be more nuanced or a little more subtle than before. It may not be so plain. But you know it does exist and it does happen.  You know it depends…depending on what part of the country you may be in and if you're not aware or how to work with a certain culture you may…you may…you may be found in violation. Especially from the code of ethics not if you are a realtor. But you may be found guilty of violating their housing. And again it's a matter of reporting it. Rather than you know…And figuring out was it really a fair housing violation they really…”Are they doing something against me?”. [Christian]: Sure, do they take into account kind of intention versus ignorance or kind of just kind of if you were violated you violated it. [Tim]: That's…it depends on how that I guess would…how they want to…you know, how they want to approach it. You know I think a lot of the familiar status gets…gets you know found upon. You know being single versus with family right you know with 2,3 children,4 children, 5 children. You know what…I see that part often as well. You know, disability. You know, you have to make sure you don't discriminate on disability. So it's…I think some of the…You know…A lot of the stuff…some of this comes up especially during the rental process. No, I don't think you know someone says no to somebody when they buy or sell as much as you may see that in more of a lender, tenant sometimes. [Christian]: Sure. The ones I have seen…You own a brokerage, is that correct? [Tim]: I do. [Christian]: OK. As do I and Chris. And the thing I have seen most common that I had a couple of agents on would be like listing descriptions. Would be like “This is a perfect friendly house”. I am like “Yeah you can't say that”. You know, great for kids, you know.  And the other think I heard recently you know was an agent who was working with an Indian buyer and they were like “I want to live in a neighborhood hat is primarily Indian”. He is like “I can't tell you that. You do your research, you tell me where you are looking and I will support that”. But you know… [Tim]: Yeah if you say like “Oh yeah this is…you know…I think I know where you would like to live because there is a very big Chinese community”. You know that…that's…you're steering somebody so you have to be very careful how you do that. You know the next kind of the big one you know is schooling.  You know schools and how much is good schools. Is that also kind of rooted into fair housing right. Because sometimes some of the better schools will have certain races that would make them more predominant. And so people have been using sometimes, may be using schools for fair housing violations. So you have to be as an agent and as broker, be very careful of schools. Because they are looking at that now. [Christian]: So you're saying they're kind of using that as the avenue to be in a predominantly white neighborhood or something like that? [Tim]: Potentially yeah, potentially right. So you may need to be careful on how we present schools. You know if you're saying that this is a really good school it's very different form saying “Hey this school is predominantly white”. You know in a predominantly higher class subdivision, or a neighborhood so you have to be very careful of how you use school in it too because they can use that… You know it is interesting that you bring schools up too. Or I brought it up but you know the listing descriptions anyway. Because the other day I was browsing around and there is a couple of apps on…on target marketing. And some of the target marketing for properties I have seen clearly violates fair housing. And I brought it to their attention and they're like “Wow wow we don't do that”. But I am like “But you can click male or female and you can click how many children that they have and you can click you know…”Because the data is out there.  So you have to be very careful on how you do your advertising as well and this is why Facebook got sued. Because you know make sure that you're advertising when you do decide to purchase ad space, that it is open to all. Because you know in certain people…and this is another unintentional case.  So people have said “Hey this million-dollar house I envision this to be a certain client. You know it's gonna be someone with a certain amount of wealth. And you know a certain race and sex”. And so they target, hyper target it you know a certain demographics so to speak. And you know instead of targeting based upon salary they were doing it…you can literally click on the different options and I was telling them “This is very bad”.  And then of course they redid their algorithm and they took out some of the choices but that it happens. So again another unintentional violation. You're not going out there as an agent to intentionally say “Hey I am going to market this property only to white people or only to Asians in this market or only to certain you know, Chinese”. You know whatever the case may be. So unintentional. [Chris]: That's interesting that you…you know with the whole schools and how Christian you mentioned being a predominantly white neighborhood for a school with…you know Harvard was just recently sued by Asian students for… [Tim]: Right. [Chris]: For not being able to get in because they were too good. So I mean it…cultures are changing. The demographics are changing and you know us as agents…what are some things Tim that really brokers or agents should know? Brokers can train the agents or things that agents should know to be aware of outside of the normal like federal fair housing. Because you mentioned online with algorithms. [Tim]: Yeah. [Chris]: There really has not bene anything that comes down formally that says “This is how you can use demographics online to advertise”.  [Tim]: Right. [Chris]: In the past we've had…Say you're in the Buford Highway area and you're advertising in a Korean newspaper. In Korean. In…In my training it has been that if you were advertising that elsewhere in the general population that is sufficient but if you go online and you target that it's a completely different story.  [Tim]: Yeah I think the intent is always a key factor, right. So you know as brokers our jobs are getting much harder. You know as an agent it's very important to train them but you know we…they're independent agents. You know we don't…They're not employees of our companies. You know we do have to watch what they do and what they say and I have seen a lot of employment agreement or…You know not employment agreement. I have seen a lot of independent contractors in the game that are actually saying that they are able to monitor social media. Right? Because that's one of the places where a lot of people do market their properties now.  And it does get a little harder as our jobs you know, as you grow you firm and your brokerage firm gets bigger and bigger and bigger. You know, how do you control your 3000 agents in you know do not violate right and who is the one that gets the trouble the broker or the agent? Right? Who is the one that has to go through the whole process and who is the one that is gonna get fined?  So it is you know…It's hard to always…Our job is you know to not employ…not only to encourage our agents to make money but to help them you know elevate their business. But it is a harder job for us. You know you mentioned advertising in different languages. And yeah you know I always say make sure that you just don't advertise it just to 1 community or 1 avenue. Make sure it is available to everyone.  And I think just in general it's good practice anyway. You know, why would you put everything in all Chinese or in all you know or in Spanish. You're limiting your market sphere anyway so why would you do that? [Chris]: Yeah. [Tim]: You know it's good practice. [Chris]: So what got you involved with NAR? So you came into this before, divide, you got into commercial. What created your firm and why did you get involved on the level that you did? Let's steer a little bit off of fair housing. [Tim]: Yeah. It was fun stuff. NAR you know being a realtor, starting off in a realtor world, you know that is something that we kind of naturally gravitate towards. I was fortunate. I kind of took a different path. I went to NAR and started on committees at NAR first.  I am kind of a little bit of a goof ball and I was taking a…auditing a class. ABR class. And I just happened to be with a lot of the past presidents and future presidents of NAR in the class. And it was really cold and being from Georgia I am always cold. I don't like snow and I took…I was in a hotel room and me and the instructor were just fighting you know over the thermostat and I just eventually took the hotel robe and I just brought it to class. And the minute he started playing with the thermometer I was like “Done, can't do it anymore”. Just put on my robe. Out at the NAR building. All the along had no idea. I didn't even know who I was even talking to. I was just like “Oh I came to take a class”. And then everyone was like “Is that the robe from the hotel? Did you just steal a robe? We're paying for your class”. And I am like “Oh no no I will take it back, I will take it back”. Come to find out that was Ron Vapes and Steve Brown and those were all the future presidents and the past presidents of NAR. So I think I made a little bit of an interesting impact rather [laughter]… [Chris]: Yeah that's a little bit of an impact.  [Tim]: Yeah but and you know I started getting involved with the realtor world just because it's very important for us to really ensure that our business is sustainable. You know there's so many things that we do and one of the few plan to my president circle…planted our members in Georgia. And I just…you know. Right? [Chris]: Our Pack baby. [Tim]: Our Pack. Yes. I do believe in giving back. And so I do give quite a bit back just because I have seen the policy world. I am a policy wonk. I have you know as…I want to make sure that our housing rights are protected. And you know yours and my jobs are…you know we're not impacted every day and I see that. So I want to make sure that we give back. [Chris]: Well you know what Tim is a former Our Pact chair. I appreciate that. Thank you so much for your contribution. [Tim]: Of course. [Chris]: You did everything that Our Pact does. So what made you go out and start your own brokerage? How did you get back into residential? [Tim]: So I work with a lot of international clients. You know, the good thing about having a dip or diversifying in the real estate world, you know, when I jumped back into commercial I also started working with a lot of international clients and global clients.  And so you know our firm is a little unique. Most or our agents actually are bilingual. They do speak more than 1 language in our firm which is nice just because we do cater to a whole different demographics of clients at times. And we can help them.  So when I started working with a lot of international clients they weren't really affected a lot by the recession. So they were able to work with a lot more investment properties and stuff like that. So when I started coming back into the residential world they were looking for commercial and then they were looking for something to buy on the residential side. So I kind of put my foot back in and it was fun. I started my own firm because I wanted to have a little bit more flexibility you know. Back in the day I would have said that it was because of commissions but looking at it now as a broker you don't really make that much money. You…There is a lot more headache. But I wanted to… [Chris]: A headache [inaudible] changes [laughter]. Yeah. [Tim]: But I did want the autonomy. So I started the firm and ever since I did it has been going ever since out. You know there is a lot of changes going on in the industry and I hate the word “disruptor”, but there is a lot of change going on. But I think at the end of the day if you service your clients and you take care of your clients that's why they have always been with me and you know I think they will always come back. [Nathan]: A [censored] men to that. [laughter] [Tim]: Yeah so I just… [Christian]: Nathan said the first F bomb in the day. Ladies and gentlemen Nathan [censored]… [Nathan]: Well you know how I feel about that so you know you don't need a big name, you don't need a gigantic flag, you don't need to have all the tech in the world. Just need to take care of people.  [Tim]: Yeah absolutely. And you know in that thing that is you know going to independence or working in a mega firm there is always pros and cons. But people always go…they go back to you. They back to Nathan White because they know Nathan White is in real estate. They go back to Christopher because they know that Christopher is in real estate.  So I think that if you know…and that is what I try to teach my agents like “You guys can leave me any day, I mean I have to sign your release forms if you decide to leave tomorrow or today or within the hour. You know, I hope that you know, during the time that you were with me that you were able to build your own brand so they come back to you for ever and ever and ever for real estate purposes. And if you can't than tie yourselves with…if you're not gonna be in real estate than tie yourself with a referral company and make some money that way”.  There are so many different avenues in making money in real estate. And I have a top agent, a top agent in my office. I call her top just because she doesn't sell real estate. She refers. And it's funny because she works for a company that does a lot of relocations and if they don't offer real packages she's like “Where are you moving? I know where you're moving to. Let me find you an agent”. And she just collects a referral check all day long. And so in my world that's a top agent who doesn't sell real estate but is able to collect and really utilize her license. But it's funny how…I know when the checks come in. And I am like “These are yours”. I know exactly whose check it is. It's fun.  [Nathan]: So Tim I always like to ask some fun questions and I typically pluck them out of a great book by Tim Ferriss. [Tim]: So you're the one? [Nathan]: Yeah I am the one right. Tim Ferriss wrote a great book called “Tribe of mentors”. He asked everybody the same questions and I always like to ask guests a few of these questions that he asked people. So I will fire away with the first one. If you could have a gigantic billboard anywhere with anything on it? What would it say?  [Tim]: A billboard with anything that I want on it? [Nathan]: Yeah what would that message be? [Tim]: [laughter] I think people very close to me would say…It would probably say “Leave me alone”.  [Nathan]: Really [laughter]. That's great. [Chris]: Tim Hur wants to be left alone.  [Tim]: You know when I am at home and I want to be by myself, I want to be by myself but you know you don't get that luxury as a broker and working with international clients. We're always…We're always doing something but you know just having the time alone to be like “Give me my 15 minutes”.  You know I try to turn off my phone when I am working out just because I am like “That's my 1 hour that I have, don't have to worry about clients. You can wait”. But yeah I think that's…you know that was the first thing that popped into my head. [Nathan]: That is fantastic. Might be the best answer that we've gotten for that one yet. I don't know. Leave me alone. [Tim]: I think that's the most truthful one you could get on the show. Right? [Nathan]: Yes and I appreciate that. So... [Chris]: That's good. [Nathan]: So number 2, what are some bad recommendations you hear in our profession? What are bad recommendations you hear all the time? [Tim]: Bad recommendations. You know I don't think anything is ever a bad recommendation. I think you just...you're just…you're just very misguided, right. You just…people don't realize all the ins and outs of how difficult it is to buy and sell a home.  Recommendations…Gosh I hear that every day. I hear bad recommendations every day. I will say that rather than giving examples you can probably tell by my face. My partner says that I have facial trots. And I can't hide it anymore. So when I hear something really weird or wonky my face just turns. So you know I don't say anything. You just kind of tell from my face. [Chris]: You just see the reaction.  [Tim]: You see the reaction. So I have been told that I need to really control my facial [laughter]… [Christian]: Start doing Botox. Just numb your face. [Chris]: Yeah it will tone it all down. Just nothing to worry. [Tim]: Yeah just gotta tone it down. That's probably you know sort of recommendations I hear all the time. I will tell you that. Just kind of be careful of that. [Nathan]: Got you. So 3rd one. What is a book that greatly influenced your life?  [Tim]: A book that greatly influenced…Who reads books? OK. [Nathan]: Audible counts. [Tim]: Yes I am a bad millennial. I like to have something in my hands. No this is… [Nathan]: I am a book nerd so… [Tim]: Oh you're a book nerd. You know I am a big fan of the Chronicles of Narnia and I do like reading a lot of of very you know I don't want to say Christiany but you know it's very interesting reads. You know things that are kind of up in the air and Scrutiny…One of my favorite books is the Scrutiny of Letters. It was…I re-read that book not long ago and it's a very good book. I would recommend it. [Christian]: Allegory. Allegory story. [Tim]: Yeah. I just like the title too. I mean Scrutiny of Letters. It's kind of like…you know. [Nathan]: I will tell you I like books. I do have to do a quick plug. For those that do listen and like to know what book…Right now I am reading a book called Men's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl. If you haven't read great lately go grab this book. It's really interesting. He was an Auschwitz survivor. If you are having or struggling with your why in your life, go read this book. It will speak to you. Great book right now. This one right here. You can't see it because you're listening but those that are recording right now can, but an awesome book. So anyway, onto that. Well best answer ever. Leave me alone. Thank you for that. I appreciate it. [Tim]: [laughter]. [Christian]: I have a quick question as we're wrapping up here. So you own your own brokerage. So you're a managing agent. So are you selling real estate yourself? [Tim]: I am. I am a compete broker.  [Christian]: OK. So you're doing that [inaudible]. Whatever. We know what you mean. You're still involved in NAR? [Tim]: I am. [Christian]: Right you're still committee. So what's…What's…I mean I don't know how you find time for all of that. But what's kind of your next move? [Tim]: Mainly. [Christian]: Because of your involvement in the association. [Tim]: You know in this…as long as you can constantly serve and you know I don't mean that there is always ways to always get involved. You know I am a big Our Pack guy. I am a big global guy. Big diversity guy. You put your hands in a lot of business.  But the thing as…the important thing rather than what I want to do or what I see myself in 5 years with what the realtor world is really more of “Let's get everyone else involved too”. I think that's just really important on a local level. State level. International level. You know we hear all these different stories about “The realtor committee doesn't represent me” or certain things, “Certain communities don't represent me well”. We can find you a mission. We can find you a way to get involved. And I think that's the really more important story than trying to find where I really need to be plugged in the next life. We can all…We're all…We're realtors. We're selling real estate. We can bounce around. We can serve wherever we're asked. [Christian]: Yeah. Do you…Do you believe that non realtor, non-members have an ability to serve and make an impact without being a member of the NAR. Is there…is there diversity in that or… [Tim]: Yeah, so actually there's 4 multicultural associations that NAR recognizes rather. There is the agency of real estate association of America. There is a national association in… [Christian]: ARIA.  [Tim]: Yes ARIA. There is the national association of Gay and Lesbian in Real Estate professionals. NAGLREP. And National association of real estate brokers for the black community and the national association of real estate…of Hispanic real estate professional. NAHREP. So you know just because you're a realtor…You know if you're not a realtor and you want to get involved with some of our multicultural associations that's where to go.  And so they make an impact on their own communities itself. So yeah you don't have to be a realtor. We would always encourage you to be one but if you want to be one. But even if you're a part time or…you can still make an impact because there is so much to do in our world. And yes we don't have…There's only 24 hours in a day and we don't have a lot of time but you know there is always…You can shrug along and you can find something to do.  [Chris]: I couldn't agree more Tim. Thank you so much for joining us today. We got a lot of really great nuggets both on the fair housing side, both on your background and getting involved. For anybody who wants to reach out how can they find you? [Tim]: You can find me again…My name is really easy just think of the fictional American character of Charles Helson and think of Tim Hur. Other than that you can find me on Facebook. I am easily available on social media all summer. It's always nice when you get hacked and someone makes a fake profile of you which I found very recently but yeah you can't miss me.  But you can find me…the easiest way is just google me and find me. If you don't google yourself and do a vanity search of yourself I highly recommend it. [Chris]: Definitely. Awesome. Everybody thank you so much for tuning in for this episode of re:Think Real Estate. Catch us back next week as we celebrate our 50th anniversary…not anniversary. Our 50th episode.  [Tim]: Congrats you guys. [Chris]: Could be a long year. But thank you Tim for joining us. Everybody if you haven't go to rtrepodcast.com. Put in your email and name in the little subscription form and be alerted every time an episode drops. So you can hear great nuggets from guys like Tim Hur. Thank you and we'll see you next Monday.  [music] [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Today Nathan throws out a surprise topic for us to discuss. We talk about the questions people should ask when determining whether a brokerage is for them or not. We want to know what you love best about your brokerage. In the comments tell us what your favorite part is! RTRE_Ep_48  Audio length 29:24 RTRE 48 – What to Ask When Choosing a Brokerage [music] [Chris]:Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Nathan White and Christian Harris. Guys what's going on guys? [Nathan]: Hey what's happening? I am trying to stay warm in the polar vortex here but it's only one day people so don't panic, it's not a week long. [Nathan]: How cold is it there right now? [Christian]: It's about 7 degrees. It's the end of January we're recording this.  [Chris]: It's gone up a little bit since we talked last. Our entire state shut down for a little bit of rain so Georgia is closed now [laughter]. [Nathan]: And if it even gets flurries in Georgia it's like the apocalypse like it's hysterical. [Chris]: Well I mean no joke we are 5 years to the date from Snowmageddon. Like the time hop came up on Facebook “5 years to the date from Snowmageddon today”. And last time that happened I ended up having to walk 11 miles on icy roads back to the house because my car wasn't getting me there. So…Yeah I mean Georgia does not know how to deal with that stuff. [Christian]: It's legit. [Nathan]: Like 2 inches of snow or just a little ice? [Chris]: It wasn't 2 inches but it was like a maybe a quarter inch of snow on top of an inch of ice.  [Christian]: Ice will…Ice will mess up your day so… [Chris]: Yeah ice did it.  [Nathan]: When you were talking about ice I saw that you were talking about something. [Chris]: No yeah so… [Nathan]: What are we gonna talk about? [Chris]: Nate is gonna surprise us with today's topic. [Nathan]:[censored]. [Chris]: Nate what are we talking about today? [Nathan]: So you know we've talked about this before but I am gonna go to the…you know we're in a public group. I think all 3 of us are on it. The…the Inman coast to coast and somebody earlier this week posted again about how to choose a brokerage. And I want to say maybe it was Tanya or somebody. I forget who put the…the questions to ask out there.  But did you guys see that about an agent going to choosing a brokerage? Because some of this I agree with, some I don't agree with at all so I thought it might be good to go back and talk a little bit more about this. Maybe we have some new agents since we started doing this that you know are in that struggle bus of “Hey I am stuck here” or “I don' know what to do. I didn't…I didn't choose right”. And so these questions…These questions [background noise] Whats that? Sorry. [Christian]: Did you just say struggle bus? [Nathan]: Yeah. Struggle bus. [laughter]. [Christian]: OK I just wanted to make sure I heard that right. OK. [Nathan]: Yeah so if you guys check your email I just sent you that.  [Chris]: Yeah I am looking at it right now. [Nathan]: Right so like if you look through some of this like I don't know if I agree with all of this. Of course I never agree with everything, right. [Chris]: You never agree with anything. [Christian]: You're super agreeable. What are you talking about? [Nathan]: I am so… [Chris]: You're the “Yes man”. [Nathan]: Oh my God you all are ridiculous. [laughter] [Christian]: I am…I looked over this a little bit… [Chris]: I am seeing this for the first time. Let's talk through it. [Christian]: So you're talking about…You're talking about kind of the generic agent guide to choosing brokerage that is out there? [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: Yeah. We're not gonna say who it is put out by but there's a guide out there. Alright so first step in this guide research. What's this? “Pull MLS numbers for at least 3 years for the office. Volume, transaction count, map the transaction if your MLS offers that feature. Know how far from the office they are.”  I don't know. If you're a new agent, you don't have access to the MLS.  [Christian]: Yeah. So what I found in general is that whatever brokers you go to in you're quote interviewing with them they're going to spat out the stuff that makes them look best right? [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: So if they're agent heavy they're gonna be like “Oh we dominate the market by agent numbers”. If they're you know actually killing it in volume or, you know, gross sales that's what they're gonna…that's what they're gonna highlight.  So you know the thing is if you're a new agent how does the brokerage production help you? I mean it…it doesn't directly. Now it might indirectly because OK maybe there is a lot of experienced agents that you can shadow or piggy back on. But just because they're productive doesn't mean it will help you do yours. They're busy. You know and now they're hinting like if you have in mind “OK I am gonna do open houses.” OK you're gonna need an office that has listings , you know. Now you don't need it in there they're not here. You can call other agents and brokerages if they're willing to collaborate… [Chris]: What they do that? [Christian]: Well it's not…it's not a culturally…I don't know. Some do. You know if they have a more collaborative mind set. I mean I all about that but not…Most franchises don't have that. Might be more in the “Protect your own” mind set. So…They'd rather not do an open house rather than have someone from another broker do their open house. [Chris]: That should never happen. Not in my state. [Nathan]: Well you know here's another one on here that really tripped me up. This is a value aid and establish. “Why the office of the brokerage you're interviewing with is or isn't successful.”  How do you define success in a brokerage? [Christian]: Right what are your metrics success? [Nathan]: Right I mean. [Christian]: Numbers and profitability but you're not gonna know the profitability numbers. [Nathan]: Right. I mean you know our brokerage doesn't do a gazillion transactions but I believe the ones that we do do are very high quality. So, meaning from…you know from a client experience. So again I don't know you know if that counts or not. It's like saying “Oh I am hearing another party say look at agent reviews on yelp or Zillow”. I mean [censored] I am not interviewing like…That's not applicable to me I guess so I struggle… [Christian]: But when it comes to researching a brokerage what would you say? I mean I don't think these are super valid because they center around like on traditional like sales like…Do they do a lot of business? And that than quantifies whether they're a good brokerage which I think has nothing to do with is a good brokerage or not. Maybe.  I mean I guess you could kind of determine market saturation or market share but again as a new agent is that really gonna help you I mean unless you're in a small town and there is a dominant brokerages and a bunch of other small ones that don't do anything. I mean here in Seattle there's tons of brokerage and they all have their…they're all getting those things. They're all doing sales. You know it's not one, It's like crushing it you know. [Chris]: Well I think it all depends because everybody's definition of success in real estate is different.  [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: You know I was speaking to one of my agents about this the other day because as we bring in agents you know depending upon where they are in their life cycle they may have different goals. Like some of our agents are retired from one career. Do we expect that those agents are going to hustle and grind and built a massive business working hundreds of hours every month just for a few years? Probably not. You know those people are probably getting into this to do a few transactions a year, have a place to come, learn, hang out, interact with people and have fun.  And then we have some other people that are getting into this for the exact reason I just mentioned. They want to grow something big. And it's not our job as the brokerage to define what that success is. That's up to them. Our goal is to provide the infrastructure, the culture, the support necessary for them to build what they want to build. At least that's my philosophy on it and you know…go ahead. [Christian]: Yeah I mean that's a good point is that there's not one definition of success as an agent. You know there's gonna be the younger people that don't have family and nothing better to do but grind it out for 80 hours a week. Other ones that are mostly, you know, full time, stay at home parents or something that are gonna do occasional job, you know. [Chris]: Absolutely. So this question that they ask in here, this bullet point I think is excellent which is “Ask the broker about his or her story as an agent, team lead, sales manager or broker owner. To what do they attribute their success? And you want to under…you want to uncover his or her core beliefs about what makes a successful agent”.  I think that is an excellent point. When you're…when you're looking for finding out what firm you want to work for it's gonna be the team of people that you're surrounding yourself with and knowing their core values. If they're not transparent about it. If they're transparent about it you should know their core values you know within you know the first round of interviews with them. But if they're not asking questions like this would be fantastic as an agent looking to find a right…a different brokerage.  [Nathan]: Yeah I agree. That's…That's a helpful question in there. Some of the ones like I said I struggled with. That one is good. I was talking to somebody the other day and they said “What about getting this person to come in and be a manager”. And I was like “Yeah but the problem with them managing is they don't actually have any history”.  I have a big struggle on my struggle bus that there Mr. Harris [laughter] for people who coach or who lead that don't have any history or is very minimal. And so how do you…Say somebody is running this office or brokerage X and they go in and they're recruiting and you ask them you know “How's your history” and they go “Well you know I stopped selling 10 years ago now I just coach”.  I kind of look at somebody like [censored]. Like that's not even relevant now. 10 years I mean that's like 100 years in real estate world so I don't think you would be helpful. I think you have to be current and I think you need to be somewhat of a producing broker to a degree or one that is heavily involved with their agents' development and still maybe…I don't know you guys would probably tell me I am wrong since I am the agent you all are the brokers but you know you only have to do a couple transactions a year just to stay fresh I would feel like. But to tune out I think it would be a mistake.  [Christian]: Yeah I think that's kind of a good point in regards to like I was listening to…I had something in Inman Connects New York livestream this morning and someone was talking about the difference between the focus of the brokerage and the agent or specifically in that context the team. And the brokerage model, traditional brokerage model is head count. They focus solely on head count.  Now you may do that through you know training or some other low thing to lure agents in. But [cough] I think part of the brokerage responsibility is when you're interviewing an agent flashing out “What are your goals for the expectations? Can we match that?” Or you know. Now maybe most brokerages don't care. We're smaller so I think we can kind of customize or at least make sure it's gonna be a good fit. Because one of these questions in here is ask if you can ride along, you know basically shadow an experienced agent. Because I mean that's a great way for a new agent to learn.  Now Chris I know you have like a required mentor program which is great but that's one of the…as many awesome things to see on offers that's one of our weak spots is that we're not huge and so we don't have a lot of agents that can you know that have enough business to be able to “Hey we have a new agent can they shadow you on your listing today?” Like… [Chris]: It took us a while to get to that. [Christian]: Yeah it's gonna take a while. [Chris]: Yeah.  [Christian]: But I think that's good because I did…the one agent I had lost and you know there's nothing I could have really done about it is just the nature of how big we are was they wanted to, you know, shadow someone's business. Someone who is you know doing a lot of business. And we just don't have a ton of agents doing you know huge amounts of business everyday. You know so they left so they can mentor under someone who was. And I totally get that, you know. Hopefully it won't get to the pace where, you know, that won't be an issue. But we're small, new and scrappy so you know your strengths and you know your weaknesses. [Chris]: Yeah I think that I saw here a description of the office culture, head count, tenure of the agents, breaking it down into head count and turning it over rate, the agent or broker's involvement in the local, regional NAR leadership. The broker agents' involvement in state and national associations, outside or NAR and the broker and agent involvement in local community school boards, charities.  I think that's a pretty good description of an office. Like if you can as a broker owner…If I am sitting down having a conversation with somebody these are things that I know and can recite you know in my sleep about who is doing what because these are things that we promote. But, you know, having an office that encourages involvement…A lot of offices don't do it maybe because they're afraid that when they put their agents around other agents the other agents are gonna try and recruit them.  That's not necessarily the case because there are a lot of agents that I get around that I don't want to recruit. Being in those positions. But it's still important that when we're in this industry that we do our best to support our industry and that when we are serving our communities we are doing the best to support our communities through local charities and organizations.  So having a company that supports that stuff goes to describe how their culture operates and it puts the priorities in perspective you know and just know that with turnover rate it's not always…Sometimes that needs a description. Because for us right now we're releasing agents 2 to 1 because we have become a lot more selective in who we are hiring than who we are letting go. We are letting a lot of licenses laps that are non-performers and that's one of the reasons that our productivity has gone from like 300k per person to like 1.1 million per person. So there are other things in there that need to be picked and taken into account. [Christian]: Yeah and I would say that that focus on culture is because big I mean it's really easy to quantify your split or you [cough] some of these other things that agents tend to focus on like how much money are they gonna be taking home. Now what that doesn't take into account is well “Is the brokerage is gonna support me? Am I gonna flourish there? I am I gonna hate it when I am working around. Am I gonna hate doing the work you know into the office you know. Are you gonna be part of something bigger that you're on board with?”  And I think all that closely ties into like the brand of the brokerage. What are they known for? Are they involved? Do they encourage agents involvement? And really if you hone that as a brokerage and you have a line with your agents and that's what they're drawn to you're not gonna be afraid of losing them because a big franchise down the road that doesn't have, you know, a healthy culture like that or doesn't…Isn't known for something other than name recognition of their franchise. Like there's nothing there for them. Like they're gonna love who they're asked you know what you provide. You know it's really hard to quantify that cultural experience, that feeling of satisfaction of knowing “Doing what I am doing, I am involved, I am helping, I am part of the listing and not just you know a number on the spreadsheet”. [Chris]: Absolutely.  [Nathan]: Well you know if you look at this document I mean it's great but I really think they could have skipped all the way to the bottom and point 4 like the bullet points there I think is perfect. “Do you fully understand what a brokerage is offering here?”. What I find most agents even when they switch to another one still don't understand what they're getting offered. “Do you trust the broker?” You would be working with them. I think that's important. “Do the claims of the brand line up with everything that is isn't offered to agents and clients.” “Do the principals and beliefs align with those of brokers and managers?” That's huge. “Does the brokerage provide what you need now in the future and for the development?” Like to me that sums up the only questions you need to answer almost but above the other stuff. Yeah. [Christian]: And I think it kind of makes sense. I mean I think it could be more concise but I mean those are kind of the…These are bottom line what you wanna make sure you're getting and all the questions up above will help you get to those answers.  [Nathan]: Right I mean those are the…That's the guts of my struggle bus for those people. I…And the reason I say like when you don't want people to make a switch…I've got a colleague who just made switch to another brokerage. And when she left her original one she thought you know  “Hey you know I understand everything”.  She went to the new one and 6 months down the road she went “I didn't really understand the numbers”. And I was like…you know I don't want to use her name but “Hey Sussie how did you not of all people”. Like I expected her to really understand the numbers and she didn't. I think she actually might have paid more at the new brokerage that she went to. You know because she originally left brokerage number 1 because her fees were so high. She goes the second one. Didn't know the math well and ended up paying more.  [Chris]: Sure. [Christian]: Well I think that tied into the “Do you trust the brokerage”. I had an agent who…who I think had made up her mind you know that she was gonna leave. You know it implements new monthly fee because we're losing money on not producing brokers…not producing agents. And I am like “Kate you may think that you're gonna pay less over here but let's talk about this”.  And you know after talking about it and she talks to some other people about “Oh I didn't realize that I had to be a member of the NAR which is another $600 every…” whatever, “I didn't realize that they also did desk fee” and blah blah blah and than I was like “OK you actually have it really good here”.  You know and so…and maybe you know putting some of that back on media and brokerage. Can you get the value there and so she thought she would find it somewhere else. But half the time you know they end up leaving thinking the grass is greener. And than “Oh hey they were sold at fallen stolen goods” you know. You don't realize it until after you leave. After you go somewhere else.  [Nathan]: Right. Right they don't understand it. [Chris]: I got that from a couple of agents. They left and now they want to come back and they were on like one of our old legacy plans and they don't get that option anymore. And that they're like “Oh [laughter] wow this is gonna cost me more?”. Like “Yeah yeah we're doing a lot more now. You had it good. You lost”. So I mean that's another thing for agents. If you're thinking about making a move see what your broker can do.  If you're moving…there was an article that came out a little while ago about why agents make a move. And a lot of brokers think that number 1 is because of the cost. But it's not. I think one of the number 1 reasons is the number 1 and number 2 but it was “Is the broker in their corner? Does the broker have their back?” And then the other one was “What is the culture like at the office?” Because if a lot of…for the most part brokers are gonna make relatively smaller amounts of money. And it's all gonna depend on what they're offering and what their expenses are but you know we're gonna make our profit margin. Hopefully. That's the goal. And if… [Christian]: Wait you're profitable? That must be nice [laughter]. [Chris]: We're investing a lot of it back into the company. But we are making what we need to be making off of them so that we can invest it back into the company and our agents see that but the second thing is culture. Are you working in an environment that you feel that you have the people around you supporting you?  And those 2 were the biggest reasons that agents make jumps. It's not because of the desk fees. It's not because of the NAR fees. It's not because of the monthly fees. Sometimes it is but usually that's when we see people going from very high splits to something that is a little bit more along the lines of the Indie broker margin. Kind of the Indie broker model. Where we have a little bit more flexibility there and we lose the franchise fees. But other than that it's culture and is “Does the broker have my back? Is the office there to support me?” [Christian]: I definitely have to agree with that. I think a lot of agents lead with the cost but I mean in the grand scheme of things I mean there's not…If you're productive I mean what you're gonna end up paying isn't that different over you know a year. You know but it does come down to that culture and that…what was that other thing you said? [Chris]: Culture and support. [Christian]: Culture and? Support yes. Yeah that's huge because I have had agents that come over you know who come over because they're like “How available are you? I can't get a hold of my broker when I have questions for 2 days.” And I am like “That's ridiculous. What are they doing? It's their job”. [laughter]  You know and so it being smaller and not having so many agents and you seeing my primary job and been in the office to support agents you know I mean that's big you know. And just a tip. If you had an office you're not really sure what their culture is, if you want to get a good gage of it pay attention to how they respond when an agent leaves. If they're nasty and two faced get out of there. Get out of that office.  And that was my first office. Like day to day it was OK. It wasn't openly hostile but as soon as you know…Someone who you know agent X was quote “friends” with and helping out one day and they left and the next day they're “Oh that person I knew blah blah blah they're terrible”. And you're gonna be like “What aren't we all in this together? What's this brand loyalty to a franchise that doesn't have your back? Like what do you care as an agent whether or not another agent left?” Like you know like they're being personally, like a personal slide against you know the agent that another agent left.  [Nathan]: Man the colleague that I was talking about earlier when she left her original team you know they went [laughter] Death Con 4 on her. I was like “You don't want to be in a place like that”. Like… [Christian]: It shows your true colors either as an agent or you know as…Like if I hear that as a broker I squash that. I am like “No we are collaborative, we are all on this together. I want what's best for them and if they feel going to another brokerage gives them what they need he no pep talk. I want to support them in there”.  [Nathan]: That makes me think of Tracey Chambers, who is my first team lead. I was…the team lead at the office at Callow Aims [phonetics] and I will applaud her. When I told her I was leaving she said “Nathan I wish you all the best and if you ever want to come back here know the door is always opened and I will welcome you with open arms and if you have any questions feel free to call me”. I still call her. She was awesome and that tells you a lot about her.  [Christian]: And speaks to character and that's what's gonna be the biggest differentiator and the difference between agents. It's not skills, not experience, it's character. Are you gonna do the right thing? [Nathan]: I don't know if we answered any questions actually on this list of things. But I think it's important to talk about again from just an agent perspective because again as a new agent and maybe even within the first year or 2 you just don't know all the questions to ask. And it's…and a lot of it is ambiguous because you can't put value on certain things.  [Christian]: Yeah I think it's a good starting point. I mean I have had one agent who came in with questions and I loved it. You know it would be like “Hey these are some questions I have” and I think they kind of got them offline or you know another brokerage they were interviewing or something. And I am basically like “That question doesn't matter because of this. This question is irrelevant because of that. That's a good question. Let's talk about it.”  You know. So it could be a good place to start but like you said as a new agent you're not really sure what you need to be asking. What questions mater or not. [Chris]: Yeah so I mean we…I think the last time we talked about you know choosing a brokerage and how the brokerage works. That was like early early last year, right around when we just launched. [Nathan]: First 5 episodes maybe. [Chris]: Yeah yeah something like that but I think regardless of where you are in your career if you are new or if you are a seasoned veteran I think the message is you need to understand if there is…if your office is toxic, if your office is not fun to work in, if your leadership is undermining management, if your…if you're not receiving the right support the message is there are brokers out there where that does not exist.  There are brokerages that do have proper support, that do have a good culture and that are fun to work at. And I think that a lot of the brokers who have quotas that they need to meet on the recruiting side I think that those…their attention is in the wrong place and that the broker owner does not have enough time to dedicate to the support of the office.  So that's my message. If you're in a position where you're not sure what's gonna happen with your career, if you're not happy with the people that you're working with my message is just go out and try and meet a few brokers because there are places that do exist where that's not a problem. [Christian]: Yeah. [Nathan]: Yeah I mean I agree. That sums it up about as good as you can get. If you got questions you know what you can do? Email us. We'll answer them [laughter]. [Christian]: I am interested and see what questions…you know…Yeah comments, you know. Leave comments. What are the questions? You know what are the questions that agents should be asking or brokerages should be asking to their agents to make sure it's a good fit?  [Chris]: And email us and tell us what you think about your brokerage. Why is your brokerage a great place to work? I think that… [Christian]: Yeah that's good. [Chris]: What do you like most about your brokerage? We don't want to hear the bad things. We hear the bad things all the time. Let us know what you think is the best part about your brokerage? I think that just about sums it up for this episode of re:Think Real Estate. Thank you so much for tuning in for this impromptu topic brought you by Nate. Thank you Nate. We'll catch you next week.  [music] [Chris]:  Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Now that we're a few weeks into the new year it's time to evaluate our progress. Are we still on target with our goals? Are we busy or are we moving the needle? Join today's discussion and share your bad habits below. Episode Transcript RTRE_Ep_47  Audio length 22:49 RTRE 47 – Are You Busy or Productive? [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with my faithful hosts Nathan White and Christian Harris out of Columbus, Ohio and Seattle, Washington respectively. Thank you so much for tuning in. It is a still relatively early in 2019 and we were just talking about you know this is right around the time some people start dropping off their new years' resolution. So I hope…I know it's not anybody in our audience [laughter] but now we start to get in the busy time of year and it's that definition of busy.  What is busy? Is it…Is it necessarily productive or is busy making us money or is busy just the thing that we have to be doing? Because I don't know about you all but picking up my thumb that's like my thing. If I am not doing something right now I start to itch. Like I find myself sitting down sometimes and maybe I will be waiting on somebody for a business meeting and I have to cognitively think like actively think and just saying “You know what I should learn to comfortable just sitting and waiting” and it's something that is really weird. But when I am in that mode I can actually think about what needs to be done and I think that sometimes when we're busy we don't always do that.  So today we're gonna be talking about what the difference is between being busy and being productive. Christian? You're a broker owner, you're starting up a new company. You're back into selling. What…like how are you challenged with being busy versus how productive is your busy time? [Christian]: So you know the funny thing is and I don't think this is an experience unique to me but when I am talking with other agents or just people in general you know the small talk is you know “How are things going? How are you doing?” And the response 95% of the time is “I am so busy, so busy so much going on”. You know, and I think subconsciously we kind of wear that as a badge of honor like “I am so important that I am busy all the time”. At least in real estate. You know “I am just scrambling around because I got so much work”.  But the question really is “Is busyness a badge of honor or is that more a sign of no you're just ineffective in what you do and how you spend your time?” Which is why I find this conversation so interesting because being productive is way different than just being, busy you know. I can be busy and feel like I am getting stuff done by checking off my 2000 emails but you're not actually moving the ball forward. You're not actually accomplishing goals versus “I've got my dedicated time to do this one task and I am focused on, that's the only thing I am doing”.  You know, you can elude to the distractive nature of technology and things these days and make a whole episode on that. But you know I feel that same pull. I am older so and I like to say I am bilingual you know I grew up in a day before the internet and so I remember doing book reports with books you know and card catalogs as the research tools and that sort of stuff you know. [Chris]: You're not that old. I still had that. [Christian]: Yeah I am just saying you know. I remember a day before that and then in my 20s you know adopted technology as in internet and tan smartphones came online and what now.  [Nathan]: I was using an Atticus. [Christian]: And so I remember the times of… [Chris]: Hang on Nate did you just say you were using an Atticus? [Nathan]: Yeah Atticus. I am the old one out of the group [laughter]. [Christian]: Only by a couple of years. But the point is I feel that pull too to like never have down time. To always be doing something, always be stimulated with input. And usually that's in the form of I am sitting there like you said in the doctor's office and I feel the draw. Uncontrolled, my hand reaching my pocket pull out my phone and just mindlessly check Facebook or Instagram or emails like we can allow yourself some time to like reflect and think and ponder which we don't do a lot so we tend to live our lives in a stimulated anxious responsive posture. Instead of proactive duffle posture. [Chris]: Definitely. [Christian]: You know there is a lot in that but I think the business plays into that. [Chris]: So Nate obviously you've shared with the audience that you suffer from ADHD. So is busyness a good thing for you or does that impede your productivity? Like what's the difference between being busy and being productive for you? [Nathan]: Yeah I mean that is the million-dollar question right. I can be busy all the time. But I am not producing results.  [Chris]: Yeah you're good at that. [Nathan]: Yeah. So for me it's about…For me personally again it's about having a very regimented schedule. I mean those that are friends with me on Facebook whatever they're like…I actually had someone the other day saying “I don't know how you do it day in and day out like you check into the gym at 5 a.m.” Like I live and die by a schedule.  For me to get a result or to have production right productivity instead of me spinning my wheels getting around on Facebook and [censored] around and all that [censored] I have to be very regimented, right. Which means when I get to the offices one if it's quiet and the first thing I don't do is I don't get on Facebook right. I have an order to the way I do things because once I get into those realms if you would than I would squirrel.  [Chris]: Rabbit hole. [Nathan]: Yeah squirrel I am all over the place. So I have to be very regimented in what I do. And I will tell you like if I get out of that rhythm it sucks. But when I am in it I am in it. And man I tell you what, I feel great. And so I think you can tell as an agent broker whatever you are you don't have to have ADHD but you can follow…just have…I don't know kind of a purpose drill in life. Have a purpose to what you're doing. You see a lot of the people they get in and then they get on Facebook and then they're looking at their messages and they're here and they're there but they're busy but they're not producing any results.  So I…the way you quantify that to me is did…You know I set a goal list. I have to have a check list. And once I check things off it feels great. I perpetually add to that list. But, you know, in our world how do we judge our productivity? Dollars and sales right? I mean in the restaurant industry they used to say “Sales cure all”. And in our industry I think that's applicable right.  How productive are you? You know you have the agent that says “Oh I was such a great year I did a million dollars”. For them maybe it's great. You have the other ones that say “Hey I did 42 sides or 8 million dollars”. You know I think there's a big difference of who is productive and who is not. And I am giving to each his own. I am not trying to say that if you did a million dollars in 3 sides or whatever you weren't productive but let's be honest you probably weren't. [laughter] So… [Chris]: Well I mean you're right you probably weren't because the average full time realtors are doing 11 sides a year. [Nathan]: Is it 11? [Chris]: I think last I heard. [Nathan]: That is so many. [Christian]: That sounds high. [Nathan]: That sounds high. I thought it was like 6.6 full time. [Chris]: I think the average full time relator not the average realtor. [Nathan]: Oh yeah the average full time I get it.  [Chris]: The average person who makes a career out of it is doing about 11 sides. Not 11 transactions but 11 sides.  [Nathan]: Remember too we are realtors so what do we like to be about? All about being a realtor right. I mean God Almighty you know Facebook all watch it “#realtorlife #showingthistoday”. [Chris]: “#blast” [Nathan]: Yeah like it's like…Like it's all about you know last episode, right, we were talking about being client centric. I mean hell that's all about just being a realtor right. It drives me [censored] crazy. Like #realtor I am like listen our life isn't that bad right. What we do… [Chris]: I think what Christian just said a few moments ago is just spot on. It's about feeling important. People like feeling important and a lot of people in real estate are like “I am a real estate agent. I can help you with the biggest financial transaction of your life. I am so important”. And rather than focusing on going out and getting business and building a business they're focusing on being a realtor.  I had an agent that worked with me for a little while. It was a young kid just starting out. And we quickly realized that he was in love with the idea of being successful more that he was willing to work at being successful. And that is a big difference because you can be really busy and be in love with the idea of being successful. You know go to a show room and take picture with a Bentley and you know have your girlfriend modelling in your Instagram account. It really…But if it doesn't come down to you actually making money it doesn't really exist.  So I think that a big thing is feeling important and Christian hit the nail in the head with that. And people can be busy to feel important. That doesn't mean they're productive. That doesn't mean they're working on their business. So… [Nathan]: Yeah it takes me about the time one time I…another agent we were talking We did not know each other. We had met and I said “Oh you're a real estate agent?” she said “Sure I sure am?”. And I said “How did it go last year?” She said “It was great, I closed 4 houses.” [laughter] And I laughed and I said “You're not really an agent.” She got really mad. [Christian]: Can't imagine why. [Nathan]: [laughter] But again I go back to what you said about what Christian just said. It wasn't about…I don't know, I didn't feel any passion to what she was doing. You know I think those of us who really enjoy what we do we do it because we are passionate about it. Not because we love houses or watch HDTV or anything of that [censored]. Like we love what we do. We love…you know there is that narcissistic side again of you know part of it. But there's also the feeling of just helping somebody buy their home that is very rewarding. And so I don't know I could go preach on a lot of different angles on it.  [Chris]: I couldn't agree more. Now I think we kind of got the understanding for the audience of what is the difference between being busy and productive. So how do we focus on being productive with our time? How do we focus on not dealing with the busy work? Because there is about 20% of our daily activities that are gonna result in about 80% of our business. The parietal principal works in that way. So how do we take that 20% and be extremely productive in that? So that it is not really blowing out of proportion or taken away from the other aspects of our business? [Nathan]: How do we…? Are you asking how we measure like…our productivity? [Chris]: How do we focus? How do we not deal with the busy work? [Christian]: There's also all sorts of tactics on focusing. We've had several opportunities on it but I think it is good to kind of go over some of the basic stuff because you know even maybe in super organizing systems like think you know “I am efficient with my time” I get distracted you know in real estate you've got your phone blowing up in fires. You have that put out and you know  ”I am trying to time block to get this project done and the phone won't stop ringing”. And you know… So it could be very challenging but I think kind of like you know quote “new year's resolution” you just gotta if you follow the horse you gotta make it on keep going. Remind yourself “OK I need to turn off the technology and just be self-aware of like the things that are drawing your attention away from actually being on a state to focus on one thing at a time.” You know don't buy into this like “I can multitask and I can have my social media up while I am into MLS and while I am drafting an email and working onto the project”. You're not gonna get anything done and you're gonna be super stressed out.  [Nathan]: Multitasking is [censored] people. Multitasking is for people that can't focus on one thing at a time and complete it. So don't multitask. Get it done. Sorry I get really weird about that. [Christian]: Alright there you go. [Nathan]: Yes.  [Christian]: You said it.  [Chris]: You have no compassion for it. [Nathan]: Yes I can't stand people saying “I am multitasking”. No you have the inability to focus on one item specifically that's what that is. That is 100% what that is. [Christian]: That's a lack of discipline. [Nathan]: Yes. There are a million things to…that you can use in tools and resources. Again just daily habits, you know, goals. Writing goals and not looking at them a year later but looking at them daily. Periodically or whatever it is. I mean. Or you can be really anal like me and have a check list.  [Christian]: Nathan you're making me feel bad because you know that's illuminous stuff but I don't do it all the time. You're hurting my inner child. [Chris]: Yeah but…Nate how is that CRM going? [Nathan]: [laughter] My CRM is going horrible. Why? Because I didn't put a date on it. I know it. I own it. [Christian]: What's your date? Give me a date now.  [Nathan]: I have not…I don't have one yet. [Christian]: What's your calendar? Do it now. [Nathan]: I don't have one yet. I probably…I am actually. [Chris]: There's a couple…OK getting back on track I think there is a couple of things that work for me in trying to aim and being more productive. One is, I don't take on more than I can handle at any given time. [Christian]: How do you know what you can handle? [Chris]: Huh? [Christian]: How do you know what you can handle? [Chris]: Trial and error.  [Christian]: OK. [Chris]: When I realize that I am not spending enough time with the family and some of the projects that I am doing I don't see a future to, whether that be it doesn't improve the bottom line, it doesn't like it's not gonna be used, the reaction to the agent is not exactly the reaction that I thought it would have. I'll cut a project.  I don't take on too many volunteer roles. Like if I take on a new one I give one up. But when I do something I…when I changing a habit, when I am adding something into my routine, I do it one step at a time. I don't go and change my entire routine overnight. And for…you can go back over the last 3-4 months and I will talk about how I changed my entire morning routine off of what Nate did after what Obi said after Obi's show. But start small. Don't change the whole routine all at once.  If you're gonna start using a CRM you dedicate that is what you're gonna do and you just do that for you know 30 minutes a day every single day and then once you're used to doing that every single day than you add something on. But you don't say “It's 2019 I am not gonna use a CRM I am gonna call everyday, I am gonna follow up with this marketing, I am gonna do this that and the other and I am all gonna start it on January 1 and guess what it's now a few weeks in and I have dropped off the map”.  Well you dropped off the map because you have added too much to your plate. Start small than you slowly add on. And then the other thing that helps me be productive is a to-do list. Like what Nathan said. Put a checklist down. I aim for the top 3-5 things that I want to accomplish in a day. I write it down and then those are the first things I work on. So at the end of the day whatever has happened, whatever has gotten done I know that I made at least 3-5 different things that are moving the needle forward in the business every single day.  So that helps with the busy work. Because busy work comes. I got on 100 agents and it's all email all the time. Lots of administrative, lots of busy work. But I always get the productive stuff done. [Christian]: I would love to touch on what you just said because I couldn't agree more on the…because I was just the king of it for the longest time, taking on or challenging myself to something that was too big instead of thinking about it logically. So I look at it from a new agent perspective. I mean you meet a new agent. New agent says “Yeah I wanna do 7 million in sales next year” [laughter]. “OK right. Yeah right”.  We laugh now right and I would love to see it. But how about instead of saying 7 million in sales lets focus on just the first one. Right. And I think it's our human nature to set these lofty goals and then we fall short. We get discouraged and then we just quit at it right? It's OK to have a goal that is somewhat ambitious. But don't…we all know that if it's not within reach it's not worth doing. I mean myself I got a …I got a running partner, Jason Perkins here in town and we both thought about signing up for something called the Moab, 240, it's a 240 mile single loop run through in Moab, Utah, Arches national part of that whole area. 5…5 days around this thing.  I really want to do it. I like…It's on my list. And he said “Do we want to do it this year?” And I had to think through that for about 3 weeks. And as much as I wanted to say “Yes let's do it this year” I said “Eh I need another year to prepare”. You don't know how its gonna be but than it's a little more realistic. To say “I can go on and achieve that”. Maybe I could have done it this year. Maybe not. I think it probably wouldn't have happened but I rather give myself time to prepare to do some other thing. So coming from me, the guy who loves the big things, stepping back and really taking that hard look in the mirror, evaluating what your goals are I think it's huge. Don't bite off more than you can chew. [Chris]: Absolutely. That's been something major. And you to your point Nate with a new agent that's coming in saying “Oh I want to do 7 million” in even taking it a step back. Not even saying “Oh I just want to focus on that first transaction” break it down smaller. “I am gonna focus on getting 7 clients on this year”. Because if you're focusing on just getting the clients the transaction will come. But if you focus on the client you're focusing on the habits and the action items that need to be done to generate business. If you say “I want…I am gonna focus on getting a deal over the next month”. It's not specific enough. “Oh what am I gonna do to do it?” “Well if I am gonna get a deal I need…I need clients right? So why don't I just focus on getting clients and I am gonna aim from 5-7 clients this year. Then I know what my job is. And my job is to build those relationships and get in that position where somebody wants me to represent them”. The transaction will come. Whether that comes in the first 6 months or the second 6 months or the third 6 months it will come if you focus on doing the right things. That's what I got. [Nathan]: Yeah good.  [Chris]: Anything else on being productive? Guys final thoughts?  [Christian]: I don't know. What you said. I have realistic goals. Don't make them crazy. A to-do list is real easy tool and cheap. You don't need…You don't need…paper and a pen. [Chris]: Not even that. Notes apps.  [Christian]: [laughter] Yeah right. [Nathan]: I just say take it day by day. If you know you get distracted and your day goes to [censored] hey you got tomorrow. Start over. [Chris]: Absolutely start over. Don't wait. Don't set…Don't get half way through the year and say “You know what I didn't…I faltered, I am gonna wait until January 1”. Just start the next day. [Christian]: Don't wait until life is perfect and everything lines up just right because it never will. [Chris]: It's never perfect. It's never gonna be the right time. Just make little strives all the time. There's a great book. The compound effect by Darren Hardy, who talks about how making incremental efforts every day is the key to building a successful business. And I like in it to brushing your teeth. You brush your teeth once for 2 minutes, it doesn't do anything for you. But one of my good friend is a dentist. You brush your teeth twice a day everyday it's gonna prevent cavities. It's all about consistency. It's all about the small actions adding up to produce spectacular results if you stick with it. Go.  [Nathan]: So go brush your teeth people. [Chris]: Brush your teeth. [Christian]: That's how the world is conquered. A little goal at a time. [Chris]: That's how it is. Brush your teeth. Your colleagues will thank you and if you haven't already please go to re:Think Real Estate, our website which is rtrepodcast.com. Subscribe to the newsletter and you will get notified every time an episode hits the air. Go to iTunes, Google play, Spotify, leave us a great rate review even if you haven't really listened to the whole episode just give us 5 stars.  [Christian]: Yeah just do it. [Chris]: Just do it. Alright. Thank you so much for tuning in everybody. We will see you next Monday.  [music] [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

There's been lots of industry chatter about the difference between running an agent-centric brokerage vs. a client-centric brokerage. Today we break down the article written by Erica Ramus for Inman News. The client experience drives the culture, training, and behavior for how brokerage offices interact with their sales agents. We spend time clarifying the difference between the two philosophies and share insight into how our businesses are run. Tell us what you think in the comments below! Episode Transcript RTRE_Ep_46  Audio length 25:46 RTRE 46 – What is a Client Centric Brokerage? [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Nathan White and Christian Harris. Guys how are we doing today? [Christian]: Great thanks for asking. Happy to be here.  [Nathan]: Fantastic and cold as you know what because it was 66 the day before yesterday and now it is 21. I don't understand what is going on. [Christian]: The joys of being in the mid-west. [Nathan]: Oh my God.  [Chris]: How is everybody coming across with the weather? [Nathan]: Listen I can't wait to…I can't wait to get to Florida in a week in a half so it's coming. [Chris]: I feel you. We're heading there the same weekend I think. [Christian]: We are yeah. [Chris]: So we were just talking before we started kicking off and there was a great article that came out on Inman recently by our friend and former guest on the show, Erica Ramus about the difference between agent centric brokerages and client centric brokerages and why an agent centric broker is not the way to go for the future.  So…There was a lot of kick back. It was a hugely popular article. I got a little bit of a quote in there. Christian was majorly quoted in the article because… [Christian]: I am very quotable.  [Chris]: Yeah you're a very quotable guy apparently. [laughter] So Christian why don't you tell the audience a little bit about the article and what the difference is between being agent centric and client centric? [Christian]: Sure yeah I mean in a nutshell you know it was nice because we met Erica at Inman Connect last year in 2018 San Francisco and between me you and Jackie Sotto [phonetics] you know there was definitely some like mindedness as far as how we run our brokerages or any brokerages and focus on building it with a client experience in mind.  And so I think the article is based off of you know kind of the strength we so in Inman or different conferences where a lot of…you know the bigger brokerages would get up and just kind of tell and tell they're agent centric. You know it's all about the agent experience, all about the tools, all about the support. And very little talk about the client you know which to me and to her seems very backwards.  So, you know, she reached out to us and we got some of her ideas and wrote an article and it seems like it kind of hit it…It hit a nerve. You know a lot of people understood that. Essentially what we're saying with being agent centric…or sorry with being client centric is that everything we do is informed by how we as a brokerage can empower our agents to provide a better service and experience for their clients. And ultimately their clients, our clients if they're successful you know brokers become known for something, we're doing something big and better as opposed to just turning up transactions like a big franchise might and not really having any oversight or care how the agents do the business. They just want them to do business. [Chris]: So it's…It's not about attract, retain, recruit the agent. It's about providing the experience for the client and how…how can…I think a lot of the pushback from some of the comments on the article talked about “Well why can't you have both?”.  [Christian]: There was a…when there was pushback that's kind of what I saw. And to me that says that they don't really understand the mindset. Because you can't have both. You can't be centered on 2 different philosophies. Right? You're either agent centered… [Chris]: You represent the buyer and the seller at the same time. [Christian]: Exactly. There's a conflict of interest there because it's…your focus and direction is gonna be going in 2 different ways. Because I think a lot of the franchiser are focusing on they're talking about being agent centric, they're focusing on recruiting, retention, how can we give the agents the things that they think they want, that they think will help them to be successful. But most of that stuff centers around legion back office stuff, CRM, technology. Very little that interfaces with the client and has anything to do with the client experience.  I mean there are some exceptions in there as far as like the marketing maybe with Compass or something. But most of it is geared around you know “How can we please the agent to build our brand?” And to me that seems backwards you know. And maybe that's just the mentality but in the indie brokerage we have lectures about being smaller and how to control that experience and how the agents we have and their focus better. You know to me it's all about how can we service the client better and everything we provide to the agent in support to new tools is geared towards that. As opposed to just making them feel good or providing free business or something and it doesn't really have an impact on how they service their clients or how they interact with their clients.  [Chris]: So Nate you were the big franchise and then you went to a smaller more growth orientated firm. What's your take on this from an agent's perspective? [Nathan]: Oh man well I feel like if you're agent centric than you're more of an owner centric kind of guy. Right. It's about profits and bottom lines to the individual that owns that brokerage if you would. Shoot. I also…well you know if I go back to when I became an agent I wasn't taught about the client experience. You know I was taught “Let me show you how to lead generate”.  There was never anything about taking care of the client, putting the client first. It was about “You need to make 100 calls a week, you need to have your lead trackers sheet and out of 100 you hope to get 1”. But nobody said anything about “This is how you take care of a client”.  And so for me luckily coming from a hospitality background I get it. I understand what it means to take care of a client. Have I not hit it out of the park with a few? Yeah I have. We all falter, right? But I…I…I have better grasp I guess because of the hospitality industry. And I actually see people that, at least in my market, that got into the industry the same time I did that have a hospitality background have done well because they understand client focus. So you know not the 2 mowed horn but as we were talking I am in the top 15% in Ohio. For agents. I am a solo guy. [Chris]: Congrats. [Nathan]: Again…Thank you. I go to…I take care of my clients and I think 98% of my clients would tell you I would bend over backwards. I would do what is necessary for them because ultimately it is my reputation as well. So… [Christian]: Yeah I think…I think that's a good…Obviously agents tend to have a different perspective as brokerage owners. Well I think the good brokerage owners have been agents or still are in some regards so they're connected to that side of things.  You know it makes sense I think to a lot of people if you're gonna be client centric that's the agent who is doing that. Some of the push back I have seen is, well the brokerage client is the agent and their job is to service them while the agent's job is to service the client. You know I think that kind of goes to me it says you don't really understand this mentality. You know, because if you as a brokerage owner if the brokerage doesn't care about the client experience or the clients, well their agents aren't gonna care about them. You know that mentality and that transaction mentality is gonna triger down. [Chris]: That is amen. Amen. It all comes from the leadership. Leadership sets the tone for everything that is gonna happen in the company. And if the leadership is saying “You know what go on sell, sell, sell and not focus on the relationship or the experience that that client is gonna have” than how do you think that that is gonna play out long term?  [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: If the firm said “Go on recruit, recruit, recruit” and all it wanted for you to do is recruit for your down line than how does that benefit the end user? How does it benefit the consumer? Because the broker owns the contract. The agent leaves, the broker still owns the client. And every single industry except for real estate, every single industry cares about that consumer experience. Any financial advising firm, any single one of them. You know all their advisers are independent contractors. They still care about the end user experience.  [Nathan]: Again I go to the restaurant background. It's simple as like caring about the food that comes out of the window that goes to the guest, right. It's about driving those relationships. We talked in the last episode and the one before that about 2019. Back to basic relationships.  Again this relationship is not only from agent to agent but more importantly just agent to your client…to you to your client. And having that relationship that is meaningful. I don't know, you know, I called a client the other day and just to say “What's going on?”. They haven't bought or sold anything for over a year but it was just “Hey what's going on? How are you? How is Bobby? How is Sue?”. You know like you just have those relationships. Care about your people. It will go a long way to serve you better. [Chris]: Wait you actually care about your clients? I didn't realize you did that. [Nathan]: I do. I don't care about the co-host I work with but I… [Christian]: He pretends not to care about people. He is a teddy bear inside. [Chris]: OK. [laughter]. [Nathan]: I pretty much am a teddy bear. People figure it out and I am like [inaudible]. So… [Chris]: We have seen those articles come out on you. [Nathan]: Yeah. They didn't interview me about those things. I don't know it's maybe because I drop the F bomb too often. But… [Chris]: Probably they did the background on you and they were like “Yeah…” [Christian]: we'll pass. [Nathan]: Yeah and you know looking through some of the comments that you said you know on this article some people just truly they just don't get it. I am like, you know, you want to beat them over the head. I am just like “Really how do you not…how do you not understand that?”. [Chris]: Well I think one thing I have learned over the last year and a half, if you focus on the consumer that doesn't mean that you're ignoring your agents. [Christian]: Exactly. That is a common misconception. [Chris]: It is a common misconception so that's why I think a lot of people don't understand why you can't have both. But a broker that is running an agent centric firm, the job for that broker is to recruit, retain and develop agents and that is it. It doesn't…They don't care about the interactions that that agent has with that customer or the client. The end user experience does not matter. It is all about the experience that the agent has with the firm. Does the agent have the technology? Does the agent have the tools and the training to do their job? Is the training going to allow them to sell and create a massive income? It doesn't necessarily mean it teaches the agents how to have a great customer experience or built a referral based business.  [Christian]: Yeap. [Chris]: And when we're talking client centric from a firm perspective it means that we are teaching and training the agents how to give their clients the best experience possible. It doesn't mean that we're not training them how to lead gen. It doesn't mean that we're not training them on all the tools. It doesn't mean that our agents aren't important to us. Because the agents are the life load of the company and their success is our success. [Christian]: Amen. Yeah. [Chris]: But it does mean we're putting on the clients first. [Christian]: Yeah I mean just got a second there if someone I mean a listener is having…can't wrap in their head around this I would say that you know if a brokerage is agent centric you're probably not gonna get a great, you know ,customer experience from that agent. Or if you are it's gonna be very hit and miss depending on you know the agent.  But if you're client centered you're also going to be providing the tools resources training to that agent to make them as successful as possible. So you know you focus on one you're not gonna get the other. You focus on client centric you're gonna get both.  [Chris]: Absolutely. [Christian]: You know another way to look at it is you know if you're at a brokerage and you're like “I can't really tell like are they…like are they client centered or they're agent centered”. I think one key indicator of that is does the brokerage, the guy who does the brokerage, does the managing brokers, do they care how you do your business? If they don't care and they just want you to follow up on your leads and they close transactions they're agent centered.  You know they don't care about the reputation of the brokerage. They don't care how they…you know if you get referral business because they don't care how good you are at servicing your clients. [Chris]: If it's uniform? Right? If you go from broker to broker and you get the same type of answers. If it's all focused on the client versus if it's all about your business. That's another good way to tell. [Nathan]: I would like to add actually ask a question because I don't know. I am sure there is but whoever is listening, hey Sean Carp if you're listening email me at nathan@linkapm.com but I want to know who teaches, if there is a brokerage that really teaches this. I don't know about it either that… [Christian]: Wait we do but… [laughter] [Nathan]: Well right right I am just saying outside of our… [Chris]: If you're in Georgia 770-509-0265 call us for career info. [Nathan]: Outside of our spectrum like and I specifically mean more big bucks but like… [Christian]: Sure. [Nathan]: I would like to go you know of it's possible on my market but I would travel to within the Ohio region, to go and hear somebody. I would really love to hear somebody speak about it and just see what they're saying because I feel like I have a good grasp of what I again hospitality is and that's customer, client centric. I mean hospitality right.  I would love to hear that. So anybody out there knows hey hit us up, shoot us an email. I'd love to hear it. Sean Carp I am sure you know somebody you could direct me to so do that. But I would be curious. [Chris]: I would like to hear that too mainly because I feel this is a growing movement. I think after…after the whole Facebook debacle with peoples' privacy and big companies, the focus really for the last 6-9 months in business has really been on being human. Humanizing business, focusing on the relationship and I think that has just started to gain steam. So anybody who is doing that please let us know. [Nathan]: Amen. [Christian]: You know I would say you know for listeners who are listening to this, this would be like “Why do I care like hay are you guys talking about this”. I would say it matters because the reputation in that industry is not great. And it's not great because of the transactional, non-relational sales, salesyness of industry.  And because of that there has been huge gaps in the industry that left room for people like Zillow and Redfin to come in. Now you can you know be mown to them and whether on not become a brokerage or whatever but it's your fault. It's the industry's fault that Zillow is thriving. Because they're…they're unapologetically client centered. And here we have agents who are arguing about whether or not you should be client centric. It's like you don't get it. Like you're gonna become obsolete. [Nathan]: Because of [censored] like you we have the reputation we have. [Christian]: Yeah exactly. [Chris]: But we're talking about the agents. [Christian]: Right. In our little spheres we're trying to make a difference, you know. [Chris]: It being all about the agent is why NAR sold realtor.com.  [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: It being all about the agent is why the MLS has kept all the data public and Zellow exists. Agent centricity caused the problems that are there because we didn't focus on the consumer. [Christian]: Yeah exactly. [Chris]: Period. [Christian]: Exactly.  [Chris]: So if I am agent Christian… [Christian]: You're a Christian agent or agent Christian? [Chris]: No if I am an agent, Christian. [Christian]: Oh comma Christian. OK got it.  [Chris]: Comma Christian. If I am an agent and I am looking for a broker. I am building my business. I am with a broker. I don't know if I am agent centric or client centric. And I am hearing this podcast and I am like “Maybe I want to be with a client centric broker”. What impact would that have on my business?  [Christian]: I think that would have a huge impact because they are gonna be focused on your success and your repeat referral business based on the outstanding experience you provide which unfortunately a good experience is not a common thing or focused in real estate. Even…even from an agent perspective.  So I mean I think it would…Yeah we were talking about how you're differentiating yourself. Having a good client experience I guess is a general thing. You can do it in many different ways but being that…having that as a focus that is going to differentiate you more than anyone else. And you know a big part, a big key part of that is what systems you have in place in order to have clear and consisting communication because the single biggest thing you can do when it comes to, you know, servicing your client is communicating well, being available. You know to me it's basic stuff but you know when I hear you know other people's clients or friends of mine who have had bad experiences it almost always centers around “I didn't know what was going on. I couldn't get a hold of my agent you know they didn't tell me anything”. And that is a really simple problem to solve.  [Nathan]: So let me ask the questions to the broker. I mean I have my own answer if you would but so what does that look like? What's…what's an example. I don't want to use I use myself in fact which is great, right.  So I just closed on a very nice home for a client of mine that is from Brazil. They relocated here for work and they are back in Brazil doing some stuff. They needed the home painted. They needed new flooring installed and several other things. They were gonna be and actually are as we speak gone to Brazil. Who do you think is taking care of getting that painting estimates and getting the house painted, letting contractors in and getting contractors in for the floor. Finding the selections, making sure…To me that is client centric. I've gotten my check, it's already cashed. It's in the bank. But I want to make sure when they get back from Brazil that this home is ready to go. That they can move in and be seamless and I know plenty of agents who once they got that check they would have been like “You're on your own”. [Chris]: Oh yeah. [Nathan]: So to me…To me that's…that's client centric. Like I don't want to say I am going above and beyond but I feel like that's…that's what I need. I've got another client getting ready to sell their home. They're older. They're moving into a retirement community. They have to move all their furniture. They're 80 years old. Who do you think is moving it? Me. [Christian]: Your contractor filling for Home Depot? [Nathan]: Nope me. I am the one out there. My title company is actually gonna assist me and we're gonna get these people moved. Those are the things to me that there's…you can't even put a value on it. And it reaps rewards. So if you do things like that for your client you will win all day. That to me is what it looks like. I would assume to you all that's the same kind of thing or different examples.  [Christian]: Word. I want to hear what our listeners think. I want comments. I want dumpster fire. I want bickering. No I don't want that. I just want to know what people just think. [Chris]: Yeah I want the client to tell us if an agent centric is better. [laughter] No one thing is we're all on the independent side but I don't want our listeners to think that being client centric is exclusive to the independent side. I don't want them to think that you know the franchise or large firm cannot be focused on not being client centric because we have a great example of a client centric person which is Joe Rand. Who is Rand realty, metro…not metro. Better homes and gardens Rand realty out of New York. And he literally wrote the book on this. [Christian]: He's got a new one coming out that talks about it.  [Chris]: Exactly. It's coming out and it is incredible. And it's all about being good at your job. And that is what client centricity is about. As the agent it's about being good at your job and if you're with a client centric broker they are going to help you be good at your job and not just at lead generation converting and selling. But long term business building, creating a referral book that is going to help you set yourself apart like the best agents. Because the bets agents are the ones that are getting 80-90% repeat referral business because they have done the work, they have built the relationships, they have focused on the client.  And that's it. It's not…It's not exclusive to a small firm, it's not boutique, it's not independent. It's not franchise. It's about the leadership and whether or not the leadership is setting the example with the agents that…It is not OK to not focus on your clients. Or if they're setting the example that as long as you keep closing the numbers we're gonna be happy with you. That's it. [Nathan]: Yeah I agree. [Christian]: Yeah you're right. Amen.  [Nathan]: Alright and drop the mic. Mic dropped. [Chris]: I can't drop it it's on a suspended arm.  [Christian]: That's true it's suspended yeah.  [Chris]: Alright so before we wrap up for this episode any final thoughts on agent centric versus client centric and I think we're starting to beat a dead horse here but final thoughts? Nate, Christian go.  [Nathan]: It's not rocket science people. We didn't invent anything new. We're not coming up with something that's different. It's…I don't know. It's kind of the human thing. Be kind. Do what's right if that makes sense. So it should. I don't know thought the easiest things to do are the hardest things to get done so… [Christian]: Yeah I agree you know. You know it seems like it should be kind of the basics for like how we do business but unfortunately it's very rare so hopefully it becomes less rare but then we'll have to figure out some other way to distinguish myself in our brokerage so [laughter]…but I will cross that bridge when it gets there.  [Chris]: Absolutely. Couldn't agree with you guys more. I think that one thing that agents should look at if they're trying to figure out if being client centric is for them, look at every single other business industry period. And whether or not they put their clients' needs above everything else. Or if they decide that selling and then forgetting about them is the best thing. If they're…you can look at any company, any case study, any MNA they're all going to involve how the customer is treated and how the client experience is. I mean you can look at Ask Jeeves versus Google. Does anybody talk about Ask Jeeves anymore? No they don't. Google has… [Christian]: In the last 15 years.  [Chris]: Google has focused on the client and they have provided what the customer wanted. You can look at Zillow that's because we didn't do our jobs. So let's start now.  It's been a great episode. Thank you everybody for tuning in. This is re:Think Real Estate. Please go to rtrepodcast.com. Subscribe to the newsletter so you get a notification every time we launch a new episode. Go to iTunes leave us a 5 start review and share this. Please share with your friends, anybody in real estate that you think needs to hear it. Share the message. We'll talk to you next week.  [music] [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licenced for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode Welcome back for another episode of re:Think Real Estate. On today's episode, we reach back to our second episode to review our predictions for the real estate market in 2018. We discuss where we were really right and where we were less right! We also talk about our predictions for the 2019 real estate market and what we believe will happen this year. This real estate podcast is about helping brokers and agents think about how their business is run. We discuss what is working for us in our business and how our businesses are growing. If you have any questions or topics that you would like answered on the show, please email chris@sellectrealty.com. re:Think Real Estate is the best real estate podcast to follow for real estate brokers and agents looking to build their business. Tune in weekly here or wherever your podcasts are found. We are on iTunes, Google Play, Spotify, and more. Please leave us a review and let us know what you think. Episode Transcript: RTRE_Ep_45 Audio length 34:58 RTRE 45-2019 Predictions for the Real Estate Market [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. We're here early in 2019. I am here with Christian and Nate. Guys how are we doing? [Christian]: Hi, how is it going? [Chris]: Nate is silent. [Christian]: No Nate.  [Nathan]: Good good. [Chris]: Oh he's with us. He joins us today. Last time…so last week we talked a little bit about…shoot what did we talk about last week? [laughter] Did we like…So last week we talked about… [Nathan]: Do you remember? [Christian]: We just recorded it. [Chris]: Was it in the notes? [laughter]. Smart. Thinking smart. So last week we talked about what is it gonna take to sell a home in 2019. We used the “Think Smart” acronym and we mentioned that we were gonna talk about our second episode from when we launched the podcast which was our predictions for 2018. So we wanted to talk and see what came true and what didn't. So Nate we're gonna start with you. First off let's hear what you had to say in episode 2 of last year.  [Nathan]: I am scared.  “That's the market is gonna continue to grow. Unemployment is at an all-time low. Job creation is growing gradually. Braeden wrote about that. And so I don't think we're gonna see the housing market slide. I think we're gonna see it grow very fast.  In our market here in Columbus we had an all-time low in inventory. The new builts are…you can't build them fast enough so it's…it's gonna continue to grow. The challenge I think for real estate agents is how do you get your slice of the pie and how do you do that?  The other thing I think we're gonna see is more influences upon technology or AI, but we have do we have a balance of what we do as individuals and a balance of what that AI does for us as well.” [Chris]: Alright so Nate a lot of it was…for you was that it was gonna be continued market growth, that it was gonna be pretty…Value was gonna be of great importance. Providing that value for our clients and really working on improving the communication. Tech and AI, you…having that balance to assist. What do you think? [Nathan]: I think we're still there some. I think it's gonna evolve even more in the sense of I think there was a lot of playing if you would with tech and we saw like you said when we were talking. Kelly came up with KW and several other things. I think that what we're gonna see though is from all this tech people are gonna realize again we actually provide the most value.  Again I go back to how do we blend the 2. We saw a lot of companies come in a fury all trying to get their slice of the pie and 6 months later they were an afterthought, right. So I think that we realize there's a space for it right and that's good and I am OK with that but there's still a very large space for us and what we do which is awesome.  I don't think we're gonna have that…What's that Will Smith movie. IRobot or whatever you know where everything is that way. Right so…[laughter] but there should be a large…I don't want to say “curtailing” maybe is the word. But we're gonna see some of that dial back I think a bit. And you know you are already hearing depending of what circle you run in, about you know agent value and what agents provide. I find it comical. I am not picking on Kelly, but you all are late to the party. Now it's all about “OK great we had that”. Now it's going back to being agent centric almost right. So…Interesting that you know if you're talking about tech now than you're a little late. So… [Christian]: Sure. [Nathan]: So I think you need to be focused on what you do and what you provide to your clients.  [Chris]: So I think you are right. You know last year you said that there was gonna be a balance between using technology and the agent providing value.  [Nathan]: And we're finding that out. [Chris]: And I think that…I think that that's how the year worked out. There was…I think you had all these big announcements about tech but then kind of half way through the year I think it got fueled by that whole Facebook thing…is that when the huge data breach happened. I think that a lot of people started putting more focus on the relationship, on how they're interacting with the people. [Christian]: And I would say I think on the stuff that plays for tech…but I think kind of the sexiness of it is wearing off a little bit in the sense of I think it's a little bit of a tech and automation fatigue, you know, that the trends is going back to the basics of relationships and serving your clients. Whether that's tech of whether that's man also. [Chris]: Yeah I think people are finally realizing that they're not gonna push a button and that everything is gonna be done for them. Like you could push a button and they can send an email campaign and that helps but you gotta pick up the phone. You gotta talk to people and you gotta have that one to one connection so…Christian…Nate well done I think you were spot on. I think that your predictions for 2018 came true. What do you think Christian, you think he was right? [Christian]: Unfortunately, I think he was. No I think it's good. Yeah I think it was pretty spot on. [Chris]: Yeah you're guru level there Nate. Watch out don't let it happen again, you might think you're smart. [laughter] [Nathan]: You know I am gonna keep fooling people and sooner or later they're gonna be like “You're not fooling me anymore”. [laughter] [Chris]: Well done. Alright Christian let's hear what you had to say last year. [Christian]: “I think there's gonna continue to be that tension between what you'd call the discount model tech enabled and the traditional model. So as Nate said I think there's gonna be increased need for individual agents and brokerages to define themselves and provide value outside of just…just do real estate and “I am gonna give you a good experience””. [Chris]: Alright so you were talking a lot about the push back against the traditional real estate model. What do you think? You think that came through? [Christian]: I'd say for the most part. You know I mean the…the…what we're seen with the EXP you know virtual brokerage I mean they're…I think you're saying they like acquired or gathered 16.000 new agents last year. [Chris]: Yeah they're 16k. [Christian]: You know Compass, you know, they're kind of a hybrid as far as, you know, they're not franchised but they're definitely pushing the tech in the marketing and doing things differently. They're, you know, growing like…like wild fire, wild flowers. I don't know. They're growing, they're doing good. [Chris]: You're out in the west coast you should know what a wild fire is.  [Christian]: Yeah that's true [laughter]. And you know I think we've seen, you know, big…the big growth in the indie brokerage you know scene. The rise of indie brokerages as far as people wanting to get a better consumer experience and a company and agents that are invested in the community and you know just totally gets a…you know what's kind of in the local marketing and stuff. And you know to see Zillow you know we're getting into their iByer thing and you know doubling down in the consumer. Advocating for consumers and that's their main focus and you know there's been a lot of hub hub, you know, a bunch of murmuring in the real estate space with you know “Is Zillow alienating their premiere agents or is what they're doing working of bettering stuff?”.  I mean they're willing to and have enough of market share. You know they're a brokerage, you know. they make clients as agents but they're willing to mix it up in order to continue pushing the bounds of what the consumer wants. What's best for them as opposed to the traditional franchise which isn't interested in that at all. They're interested in maintaining a status quo. And I think you're seeing they are losing market share because of it. [Chris]: Yeah. Yeah I agree with you there. We saw pretty much a lot of franchise agents move to the EXP model because you know they're gonna play this…spend that whole split. You know they don't want to play for the overhead. They like that whole MLM aspect of it where they can get a percentage of it back.  Now another thing that you mentioned…So I think you were right on point there. Another thing that you mentioned at the start of last year were that efficiencies with technology were gonna increase the tension on commission rates. Things that we can charge as a broker. Do you think that played out? What do you think? [Christian]: You know I don't have any numbers so you know I am not really sure but I mean I am increase hearing more about you know 100%, you know, commission models and that sort of thing. Which I mean those have been around for a while but they seem to be getting more and more popular as agents are looking to cut their costs and not have a big split.  Yeah I don't what the trend of that is gonna be because, you know, even in my book there is a give and take. If you're getting 100% commission split you're probably not getting a lot of support. And if you have a high split theoretically you'd be getting more support and have a physical brokerage. [Chris]: Theoretically. [Christian]: And access to your designated broker and all that kind of stuff but like…So I don't know it's hard to just get a blank statement saying “100% models provide you nothing” because there are some that provide just as much as a full service. I am not really sure how they do that other than maybe just being massive or having you know no broken order or no staff or something.  [Chris]: Nate what do you think? Do you think that played a part last year? [Nathan]: Yeah I mean again I am you know the indie small guy too that was with the big name. Still got a lot of strong opinions on it if you would. [Chris] : You? Nah. [Nathan]: It…It's…I go back to the word we talk about all the time. It's about value. But you know what we do now in 2018-19 is way different than what people did in 98-99. Like it's just…it's different so again you have to adapt you have to change.  You know somebody the other day was asking me you know questions about flat free models, this and the other. You know he was thinking about going to Cornecall [phonetics]. I hate the word. Everybody says it. But discount in commissions and again I can argue that all day. But I asked him… [Chris]: It's a different model. [Nathan]: Yeah right that's what I said. I said…I asked the guy and said “You pissed off at Amazon?”. And he said “Why?”. I said “You mad at Amazon?”. He said “Well no I get a great deal through them”. I said “OK don't be mad at me”.  Right it's just a different thing right. Nobody…You know everybody says that's not a fair comparison. It's just somebody did something different, right. And so I hate the word discount. Right it is what it is.  So…I think we will still see more people going to the independent side if the large big bucks brokerages can't figure out this value component. I think too many people see through what they quote on quote “offer” right now. The smart ones that is.  Now you know a new agent, there's different ways to go about it and what they offer them but I mean you call me. I just got a phone call. I know what it is about. But he's gonna try to sell me on what they can provide me. Man you better come on with a strong pitch. Like best I know. Like…Because I am not going anywhere. So I don't know… [Christian]: What…And I mean that's the…that's the tricky thing about the franchises and the value proposition is that they really are stuck in the where everyone is an independent contractor therefore we can't tell them how to do their business therefore they don't control any of the client experience for their agents. And all the tools they provide are totally optional you know and if they kind of suck because you know “Hey we have our own proprietary internal CRM or home search site or app” Or whatever. They're probably gonna be terrible and part of the reason you're paying so much is because you spend all these money to cut some bill some part stuff that can't compete with Zillow or a dedicated third party CRM, you know.  [Nathan]: It keep swinging at home runs. [laughter] [Christian]: I suppose indie brokerages which their focus is gonna be agent support, standardized culture and processes and training… [Chris]: We might have a bias [laughter]. [Christian]: Yeah I mean we don't…that is…that's what I have seen but universally that's what I see. I look at any of the franchise around here and the client experience and value proposition is all over the place as opposed to indie brokerages where that is their bread and butter of the “This is the value we provide. People want to be here because of blah blah blah blah blah”. You know and somebody goes to franchise the only value proposition I hear is “Well you get the name”. And I am like “That's not value proposition.”. Like… [Nathan]: If somebody comes to me again with “Hey once you've reached the third level…”I…If I wanted to be a recruiter guess what I would have been? I would have been a recorder. Like that's just not what…That's an MLN to me and you know and sorry if that bothers you. Actually no I am not sorry if that offends you. I am who I am. But…[laughter] getting to the third level whatever it is it has 0 concern for me. [Chris]: Every day I have somebody from EXP either friend me, send me a Facebook message, a LinkedIn request. “Hey what do you think is gonna happen with the market next year?” It's like they're pitching this. They study it. They train on it. [Christian]: I love it when they don't do their research and they're just pitching the brokerage owner. ”Hey you wanna come over”. Like “Yeah you don't know who you're talking to do you?”. [Chris]: There's a lot of averages. Anyway. Back to your predictions Christian I think that you know when you talked about the efficiencies with tech putting tension on the percentage I don't think you were off. But I think that what ended up putting more tension on it was how much value somebody can bring to the table.  I don't think it was tech. I don't think it was really tech putting the pressure on it. I think it ended up for 2018 really being how much value was brought in by the individual agent. Were they doing the things they were doing like the give back programs? And the high quality photos and met report? I think that ended up playing a huge role also. Tech to the stand point that you know like you mentioned if they're heavily leveraged, if they have lots of debt, they have to charge much more. I think you were right there but not necessarily on the bottom line percentage. [Christian]: The reason percentage. [Chris]: Yeah. Yeah I think in a…I think the broader reason ended up being value. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: And Nate after what you said I gotta presume that you agree with that? [Nathan]: Yes. [laughter] [Chris]: Alright so last but not least let's hear what I had to say last year. Take it with a grain of salt.  “We've had a lot of tech. Like the last 3 years in real estate it's been like nothing but tech. It's “Oh what's your website, what's your SEO what's your…you know how are you getting your leads? Are you doing you know the big 4 or you doing like predictive analytics now?” I think we're gonna see a lot of step back in those services from a lot of agents. And I think there's gonna be a big push as a lot of these suburbs bring in an urban feel as they're being redeveloped. I know we're experiencing a lot of that in Georgie.  I think we're gonna see a lot of agents really refocus on being hyper local. I think it's gonna be a lot of tech in the support and the systems and how they're able to make the transaction smooth but I don't see these big companies that are coming in trying to do disruption. I don't think we're gonna have a lot of focus on that”.  Alright so I also thought that there was gonna be a lot of tech. That there was gonna be a lot in the leads SEO, Zillow and predictive analytics which I think we saw a lot in that field. Right guys? [Christian]: Yeah. Yeah I mean there's certain things that you know…I think that you…I don't think…[background noise]. [Chris]: Stop doing that. It kills your mic [laughter]. [Christian]: I don't think…Oh does it. OK sorry… [Chris]: Yeah [laughter]. [Christian]: Yeah so I can assure things that aren't really ready for prime time. Like I can't speak push on like AI or…you know Alexa Skills and that sort of thing you know they're very rudimentary but there's been a lot of focus on them you know. So we'll see that grows in importance in 2019. [Nathan]: I don't think it's gonna grow really honestly. I think we're kind of out of…hat do you call it. Out of very flat. I think people are still like...There's a lot of discovery there has to be done with that stuff and I think we are a long way out before it really needs to concern any of us. But I could be wrong. [Chris]: Well tech played a big part. Now we have the whole conversation about the wrestle or the…the standardized data feeds that the MLS has put out. Here is a lot of pressure on the MLS to move to an API format which would pretty much make the IDX obsolete.  So there was a ton of work in the tech sector for 2018 but also probably my biggest prediction for last year is that we are gonna start seeing a lot of redeveloped neighborhoods. Lot of small town down town communities start urbanizing. Start feeling that…that kind of multiuse feel and that along with that we're gonna start seeing an increase hyper locality with how the agents operate. I think that is where a lot of independent broker rise is coming from. Small brokerages operating on a very hyper local kind of manner. Really owing the neighborhood, owning the town, owning the down town. Are you guys seeing that? [Christian]: Yeah I mean definitively in kind of the urban area Seattle even you know even the cities do some pretty big zoning changes to increase density in the loafer or in the ADUs and putting in a new light rail and all sorts of changes for you know a denser urban core. So yeah. [Chris]: Nate what are you seeing in Ohio? You're muted. [Nathan]: I just lost my whole train of thought when it got muted. [Chris]: Nate what are you seeing in Ohio? [Nathan]: You know what I see in Ohio and I will probably get slammed for this. We're a busy market but what I see in Ohio is we're always a day late and a dollar short or whatever it is. But we're late to the party. I don't know where I am going with this right now so just edit this out. My whole train it's… [Christian]: But there's been… [Nathan]: My whole train of thought just went sideways because I had a kid walk in the room. [Chris]: So we're talking about the urbanization of downtown areas in the suburbs. So the hyper locality of agents about really owning that. What do you think are you seeing that in Ohio? [Nathan]: Here we go. Yeah you are seeing some hyper locality. There's, you know, I could sit here and name quite a few agents off here real quick that specialize in certain areas. Again I still argue you don't have to. Does it help? Yeah I mean why…why go and have this wide area that you're gonna cover such as myself. I go everywhere. It can be a pain. When you can do just as well on a small hyper local area that has value.  I think you're getting push back thought now form consumers a little bit because it…you have the hyper locality but you also have the gentrification of neighborhood that is pushing on a whole other segment that is causing a whole other problem that I could talk about for days. So there's good and bad in it with both I guess. So…But you are definitely seeing it here. [Chris]: Yeah now you're starting to see like brokerages really taking advantage of that becoming that hyper local brokerage, that downtown brokerage?  [Nathan]: From the perspective of teams yes but not a brokerage like…You know downtown say you want to be in a certain area of the short north or what not here. VNR, View Tech and Rough you know like boom. But automatically they come to mind. Right? If I go down to an area called Old Oaks than I think like Jim Ross. He was…left Key Realty to just go to Remax I think. So again it's not necessarily the brokerage, it's the individuals or the team that is down in that area. [Chris]: Excellent. Alright so I don't know. What do you guys think? Do you think we were on point? Do you think we got 2018 right?  [Christian]: I think we're about 85% accurate. [Chris]: 85% accurate. [Christian]: Or maybe that's me. Nate was pretty spot on. [Chris]: Nate…Nate I think was dead on. [Nathan]: I feel that I mean yeah I feel good about what I said then. I feel good about what I say now. But I don't know looking at 2019 I think we're gonna see…what's the proper word. Regression? Is that right? [Chris]: Well let's talk about that. Let's talk about what we're gonna see for 2019. Where do you think we're gonna see regression in?  [Nathan]: I think people have over complicated what we do. And I think we're gonna see a “back to basics” kind of mentality. Which is upfront, relationship driven, client focused mentality for the successful real estate agent.  Now I want to be very specific. I want to say the ones that are successful I think really…You know when I say successful I mean long term but I think we're gonna see a heavier focus on this relationship building, you know not kind of hit it and quit it mentality. Or letting AI do the work for them. Because they realize they have automated everything they do. They have lost touch with those people. I mean your word for 2019 is relationships. Right? [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: So again I don't…You know some of us can see the wiring on the wall so I think we're gonna see that we're gonna go back to basics. That's what I'll call it. Back to basics in what we do. AI is a good thing. The technology is a good thing but let's get back to the core of who we are.  Joe Rand has got that new book coming out. I am telling you he even speaks about it. I guess I can say that. He talks about it. We're gonna go back to basics so… [Christian]: Thank you Nate you stole my thunder. I was gonna say focus on relationships and client experience. So yeah there you go there's my 2 sense. [laughter] [Chris]: Alright well Christian what else do you think is gonna happen in 2019? Let's take your predictions now outside of you agree with Nate. Great. What's gonna happen either market or interests, broker level? What do you think? [Christian]: Sure. I mean I think the markets, the writings on the wall I don't think it's gonna…I don't think it's gonna fully flip to a balance to a buyers' market. But I do think the silage market is gonna severely cool.  You know like here in Seattle people are freaking out because, you know, the last half of year it you know home values have dropped 11%. But a year of a year it's still up 2 %. So I think we're start seeing the normal umbers of a healthy market which are gonna be 2-4% increase over a year and not 40% for the last 5 years which is what Seattle has seen. So… [Chris]: Yeah no biggie. [Christian]: So I think it's gonna…I don't think it's gonna entirely shift. I think…you know or level out. I think it's gonna continue going up in a much more moderate. [Chris]: I think that…I think that you're probably on point there and that can probably speak in the nation as a whole. I think that for Atlanta we're probably gonna see something similar. Continued growth, but growth at a much slower rate. I think that our growth rate is probably gonna be cut in half at best and probably by 90% at worst. But we're still gonna grow. We've got too much infrastructure that is booming. We've got extreme demands for jobs here. So as long as that stays steady I think we're looking at something similar.  So Nate you kind of covered what your predictions are for interacting with clients.  Christian you kind of covered what we can expect for 2019 for the market.  So I guess that leaves the broker level. What we can expect for brokerages. So for 2019 I think we're gonna see a divergence in how…what kind of brokerages take off. And I think it's gonna go really 1 of 3 ways and we're gonna see a lot of movement in 3 different directions.  1 is you're gonna see the Redfin partner agents and Redfin agents growing exponentially. I think there's gonna be a lot of growth on that bottom sector of low commission, kind of higher quality service but low commission. So there's gonna be that movement.  Than I think on the other side you're gonna see agents moving towards very high tech companies. That's gonna be your Compass. And your EXP. You're gonna have that “We want high tech and we want low interaction”. They're gonna be flocking from the traditional franchise model.  And I think the third direction that they're gonna be moving into is the independent boutique. We're gonna see a rise of boutiques that are very…cultured centric. You're gonna see people who get together and the culture is the most important part. We're gonna see a lot of rise from that. I think that you can expect a lot of brokerages across the nation that are maybe 10, 20, 30 agents right now to probably double or triple their numbers so long as they can keep the management and the culture intact as they grow. And that's gonna be one of the hardest things to do that that segment is gonna have to kind of deal with and overcome.  But I think that we're gonna have those 3 movements. Away from franchise into high tech, low touch into the low discount model high volume and then the independent movement. [Christian]: Interesting. Can I give a little push back into one of those? [Chris]: Please do. [Christian]: I think, I could be totally wrong. I usually am wrong. That the… [Chris]: No you're 85%. [laughter] [Christian]: I am 85%. I think…I think that the discount brokerage model I think it's…we're not gonna see as much growth in that. I think that the word is starting to get out that you know Redfin is not so great. That the experience isn't so great. The outcome isn't so great.  At least that is what I have seen here. You know I have had a couple of…a couple of you know listing appointment that were like “I never list with Redfin”. You know. And because of that I think if you understand value and you maybe talk with people that use them you know word gets out that you know yeah you save a percentage or 2 but at what cost? [Chris]: Yeah and here's the reason… [Nathan]: For clarity let me ask you a question. List with Redfin or list with a Redfin partner agent? Because they're different things. [Chris]: Well hang on. [Christian]: I am saying the model.  [Chris]: Oh boy. [Nathan]: Oh no you can't do that, you gotta break it down. [Christian]: Well I am saying the model in the sense that like if your primary value proposition as a brokerage is more cheap that comes at a cost. And I think the word is starting to get out that discount brokerages by in large provide an inferior experience, results, whatever.  Now I mean obviously that depends a great deal on the agents but if your model is you know you've got one listing agent for an entire zip code of you know a million people there's not gonna be a high touch good quality experience there you know.  [Chris]: Wow and here's the… [Christian]: You know and even Redfin is shifting greatly away from the original model to not being that much different than the conventional brokerage.  [Chris]: Yeah here's the reason why I think that that is gonna be one of the moves.  [Christian]: OK. [Chris]: We have 1.4 something million realtors. We're almost back to 2008 levels of the number of realtors. We're gonna be switching to a market where agents don't understand how to deal with properties that have been marketed long. So they…the time on market is gonna increase. It's gonna be a lot of realtors that have not had to really work like hard to buy or sell a house. You know for the buyers agent their skill set is turn a nob and open a door. For the seller skill set the selling agent you know their job is to put the property on an MLS and let it sell. They haven't had to challenge their skills.  So I think that when this market shifts we're gonna loose agents. They're gonna leave the industry. But I think that a lot of those agents may move to a higher volume lower skill set style. Not to say that Nathan is lower skill set but to a discount model of where they're able to do a lot more business at a lot lower rate. Just because they don't have that background to be able to go out and compete in the market with agents that are on a higher skill set.  Now Nate that's nothing against you because you operate at a very high skill set. And your marketing is at a very high quality. But there are agents out there that do not. So… [Christian]: Yeah but there's only so much room for them. You know Redfin is only gonna hire so many people. You know. It can't be like “I can't make it as an independent contract” or something.  [Chris]: Yeah not just Redfin. [Christian]: Yeah that's a big one yeah. [Chris]: But there are plenty of regional brokers. There are plenty of regional low cap brokerages that are not gonna force an agent into charging whatever the broker's set rate is and they can go and charge whatever they want to charge. They're gonna move in that direction. They're gonna move to where they're competing on price not on skillset. So…so… [Christian]: Oh sure I can see that. Yeah. [Chris]: So I am mending my predictions for 2019. It is not specifically to Redfin or Redfin-like companies but to companies where the broker is more lenient on what they can charge. Where they can set their own rate and they're gonna compete on value. OK. [Christian]: OK I can see that. My hang up was kind of the Redfin model you know. [Chris]: Got it. Got it. So nothing against Redfin. Great company. Very high productive employee model company. [Christian]: There's gonna be a reputation where individual agents in standard franchise aren't per se. So... [Chris]: Well they're also extremely productive because their salary. Unless they're partner agents but the Redfin agents that are with Redfin corporate, their salary. So they are… So recapping again for 2019 Nate what is happening? [Nathan]: We'll see back to basics from a realtor perspective, agent perspective. We're gonna see an interest rate bump. And we'll see some market correction. We're not gonna have crazy like last year which was great but I think we're gonna see some stabilization which is…which is fine by me. [Chris]: Back to basics, relationships, more of a balanced market. Christian what's your recap? What's happening this year? [Christian]: Yeah I think the market is gonna be slowing down but not necessarily becoming byers market. It's just gonna be a slow down on the increase in values. We're seeing the economy like it used to be good and inventory is still rather limited but we're plenty folding, it has been this whole last year. [Chris]: 2019 you've got our predictions. The word…my word is relationship for the year. I think that Nate is right on point with that. If you haven't go to the website rtrepodcast.com. Subscribe. Get our updates every time a new episode is launched. This has been re:Think Real Estate. We're now well into 2019. Let's kick some butt. Take care.  [music] Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H whose music can be explored and licenced for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode Learn to stop wasting your time and money. Reign in your focus as a real estate professional and double down on things that will make you money in 2019. Today we discuss where agents are making their mistakes. We share how agents can refocus their efforts on what they're currently doing and how they can change their direction to make more of an impact in their business. Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 33:57 RTRE 43 – Stop Wasting Time and Money [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Christian, Nate and this week we're talking about shiny objects and things that real estate agents waste their money on. [Christian]:  And time. [Chris]:  And time. OK let's do that again [laughter].I have run out of words today. Christian start us off man. What are agents wasting their time and money on? [Christian]:  Hi. I think it depends on if you're a brand new agent in the business or if you're a veteran. If you're brand new you should be focusing on sales. Spending much of money on IDX websites, waste on time and money. It…because it's…everything that is expensive and doesn't directly co-relate to new sales, new agents should not be doing. But I think it is very sexy when people say “Hey you need a website, you need this, you need that, you need to buy leads”. Don't do any of that.  Like that's all maybe once you built up your business and you have the experience to be able to convert leads maybe you can do that but I think initially it should be a lot of new tech network, thinks that are cheap and easy and free which is gonna be social media profiles, you're getting out to you know community events, reaching up to people you know already via email, phone calls, that kind of thing. Those are several in one but the first thing I am thinking of is like a website or something that people tell you need to do but probably isn't the best use of your time or money to get sales now. Thinking of business now. [Chris]:  So I am gonna agree and disagree with you at the same time.  [Nathan]:  Well you're wrong. [Chris]:  [laughter] I don't know about all that. So I think you're right for most agents. You know if somebody comes in and they just buy a website and do nothing with it, right. It's a waste of money. If somebody is gonna come in and run as part of building that business, if they're coming in as a new agent or even an experienced agent, if you're doing the right way, you have landing pages, you're going out doing ads, lead capture… [Christian]:  No agent does that unless they're coming from a professional marketing background no agent is gonna do that. [Chris]:  People do that. People do that. I try… [Christian]:  Maybe one person. Maybe one person that has an actual conversion rate on their website that is a brand new agent spend money on that. [Chris]:  They're not brand new agents. [Christian]:  Well there you go. I said as a brand new agent. If you're experienced and you've got some runway to go OK that's a project that you can work on and you have some money to spend but that's not gonna get you business in your first year.  [Chris]:  Yeah and that's why I am agreeing and disagreeing. [Christian]:  OK. [Chris]:  Because the website could be, it can be a business hub, right? It is not something that you need right away but it can be an extremely well utilized source of revenue for agents if they do it right. It can also be a supporting piece for their marketing collateral that they create and they're putting in front of people. So…But… [Christian]:  Eventually yeah. [Chris]:  But most agents in my experience, there was a time when I paid for 20 professionally done websites, gave them to 20 of my agents, one of them updated their bio. Like completely waste of money. So I agree with you for 99% of the agents. They never gonna use it. Whatever their profile is on the MLS is whatever they need.  [Christian]:  Right. Well and I say that also understanding that even if you do a website and you're doing all the right stuff I mean I think statistically it is like across you know the whole nation, it's like 10% of business comes from people's websites. And that's in the high end. That's if you're killing it. That's if you have actual quality SEO. And… [Chris]:  Visitors [laughter]. [Christian]:  And marketing is good. And they're actually doing everything right. [Chris]:  Yeah. [Christian]:  And most agents don't do that. [Chris]:  So instead of doing a website, instead of doing a website right off the back Christian what would you recommend they start with?  [Christian]:  I say spend your time and energy getting your database together, so that you can set a mail chain for something similar and get in front of the people who already know they can trust you as opposed to trying to reach people that don't know you from you know, Adam and it's gonna be a much harder sale, much harder conversion. Take a longer, lumber longer you know to convert.  So you know go for the low hanging fruit and you gotta let people know and that's through social media, through mail chain, thorough that kind of stuff. And that's all free. Cheap. And just requires some time. [Chris]:  Absolutely. [Christian]:  Because as you get busier your time is gonna become more value and you have less of it but you have more money. And you can switch 2 things that are gonna take more money to get set up and more of a long term marketing strategy. [Chris]:  Oh yeah and I think instead of having a website right off the back you can create a Facebook business page and still have all of the lead capture features that a website is gonna give you if you just run Facebook lead ads. [Christian]:  True story. [Chris]:  And any conversion system is gonna have Facebook ads as part of that whether you push them to your website or your business page. That's just a personal preference based off of what you have out there. So you can easily replace the website initially with a Facebook business page. [Christian]:  True.  [Chris]:  Gives you the stats, the insight, so all the analytics too once you get 100 followers. So definitely. Definitely. [Christian]:  If you have a place to you know have your persona and drive traffic to. [Chris]:  Nate what is one thing that you think real estate agents are wasting their time and money on? [Nathan]:  They're wasting their time on time. I don't know if that makes sense but it makes a lot of it to me. Why? And what I mean by that is they don't have the product. They don't have any direction. They're literally like that ship, that went out to the bay but it never reached the ocean. They don't have a plan. They have not thought about what they're doing. Right? I mean I know Chris you know what you have been doing lately. I know what I do.  You know you wake up with a sense of purpose every day and we know the direction we're going. I know the direction that my ship is pointing from when I get up at 4:45 in the morning. Versus you got all these other agents. I can't tell you the [censored] callus time I have talked to somebody and I am  like “Hey what are you up to today? What are you up to today?”. And that's another agent. And they'll be like “Oh nothing”. And that is a common response.  Well [censored]. Nothing yields nothing. You don't have to be a genius to figure that out so stop wasting your time. Either do what you set up to do and…or at least develop a plan on how to do that and achieve it. I…you know…So stop wasting time. That's what they're doing. Wasting time.  [Chris]:  Zero plan. Zero equals zero. [Nathan]:  Yes I mean it's you know it's a zero sum game. Right you know it's like when I was fat I didn't just lose fat by doing nothing right? I had to go on and do something. I had to develop a plan. Well you're not gonna go sell a [censored] house without a plan. I mean you might get lucky but you know you're throw [censored] against the wall, it will stick. So… [Chris]:  I thought that's all real estate agents in the business.  [Nathan]:  Yeah right I just… [Chris]: They think they're just gonna list it and sell their house. There… [Nathan]:  Yeah right. So… [Christian]:  Well I was gonna say the other side of the coin on that, you know like you wanna have a plan whether you're new or realizing that your business is disorganized and you need something to give you direction. The other side of the coin to that is analysis, paralysis. Where you're always waiting to your ducks in a row, you do too much planning and you think everything is perfect before you execute. You need to execute while you're planning. Planning execute. It's a cycle not like I have this done where I can now start getting business, you know. I commonly see that where they're always planning and they always got something they have to do before they can actually get in front of their clients. [Chris]:  For everyone who wants to learn more about business planning and how we do it go to our website rtrepodcast.com and check out episode 40 which is our 2019 business planning episode. So it's a few weeks back. [Nathan]:  Right.  [Chris]:  But I gotta agree with you. People come into this and a lot…I think Bufenian [phonetics] company, on one of Brian Bufeny [phonetics] podcast. He said that they did a study. And in that study they tracked the time management of real estate agents that were working from home. And they found that on average like 0.5% of the time was spend on income generating activity. And here's why.  Because when you're working from home for somebody who is not monitored, who has zero accountability in the activities that they're supposed to do, when they get faced with getting the kids off to school, coming down, sitting down and then they look around and they're like “I gotta vacuum”. So they vacuum and they sit down and they're like “Gotta get the laundry going.” And they do that and they constantly find something to distract them from making calls.  And I am not talking about expires or foosballs I am just talking about calling your sphere. Warm calling. Calling to let people know that you're doing what you're doing and trying to set appointments to get referrals. It doesn't have to be cold calling. But nobody does it. So on average the income generating activities that are done by real estate agents that are not in an office, less than 1%. It's ridiculous. [Christian]:  Yeah and kind of going along that same, I am feeling a theme here of wasted unaccountable time. And one of the big ones, and this is a little tricky because really if you start off with your planning and your tensionality, time blocking, whatever tool you use to account for and manage your time so that like you know like a prior guest you know was talking about, it's all your focus and intensity of focus not the amount of time you spend. So like there's very real place for social media in your networking and connecting and getting the message out there. But you should be like “OK this is my 50 message off in a half hour and then turn off”. Don't be on social media all day long because they will sap your productivity. I guess. [Chris]:  Definitely. [Nathan]:  Man this is yeah I agree with Christian here and common theme I guess where we're going with this. But I am reading a book here now, by an author named Peter Changman [phonetics]. And it talks faster than normal, turbo charge your focus, productivity and success would be the secrets of an 88 charge de-brain ADX my brain right. So we'll use me as an example.  What have we talked about here in several episodes that I have yet to do and complete? My CRM right and get that updated. And I was struggling with that. And continue to struggle but finally started to get things done on it and I took it out of the book and figured how to get that done and for me what I had to do is set a deadline. You know I can have like you know Christian said I was the king of you know I plan on doing it, right. Write it on the list even but once I started putting deadlines on when I needed things done my…the way my brain worked at least was “Alright you gotta get it done and you got until this date to do it”.  So for me that works and I think part of it is you know than you can get into further and say “What are those triggers?” And you have to figure out for yourself what works and I knew for me if I didn't have a date I wasn't gonna get it done. So when I do a lot of my planning now I do a put dates behind it because than I am working towards a completion date and it helps me stay on track for where I need to be. Therefore, I am not wasting my time. So… [Christian]:  Yeah well you can take that to micro level and use an app or regular timer to say “Hey here is my hour to do this project and have it counted down. So it creates that artificial timeline that kind of forces you to focus. So… [Chris]:  Sense of an urgency. [Christian]:  Yeah exactly. [Chris]:  Yeah. [Nathan]:  Yeah you gotta know what those distractions are you know. I…you know like for me distractions are the lower but after I read the book, impressive how he wrote the book. He knew he wasn't gonna get it done so he booked a round trips fly to China and back. And just [laughter] flew out, flew back and he got the book done. Than he got even more distracted right. You know you don't have to go down the extreme but if that is what it takes, that's what it takes. [Chris]:  You know that is impressive I gotta say. [Christian]:  Yeah. [Chris]:  All right so one thing that I think agents are wasting their time on, and their effort and their money is spending time with vendors, spending time going out getting coffee with your title rap or your home warranty person or the lendors that are begging you for business. Taking those meetings as an agent is just a complete waste of time. What do you guys think? [Christian]:  I, I tend to agree and I will take it one step further. Where there…I don't know about you guys but I get inner dated you know I work my best to keep my email clean you know unsubscribe from everything that ends up in there. But I get inner dated with marketing people and you know LinkedIn connections and basically all these people that want to sell me something.  And with my mentality I am like you know I have got stuff in place that works. I don't need to perpetually be spending my time entertaining “Well maybe this is a little better, maybe this time title company that…” I have got people that unless we have a pinpoint that needs to be fixed you know like you said you're wasting your time is taking out an hour ago meet with coffee with a new lender that you know is trying to sell you on you know their products over whoever someone else's.  You only have so much time in a day, don't spend it entertaining meetings that aren't going to…you know people are gonna try and ask you for your money. [Nathan]:  I agree and disagree and I think this goes back to what Christian said earlier.  I think that is where you are in your business. If people are a new agents those relationships aren't doing anything for you at the moment. Give them business and then you can nurture those relationships. If you're an established agent than yeah taking those meetings, I do that all the time now but I am established.  I took a gazillion of them when I was new. The thing was none of those helped me getting new business. Yeah. [Christian]:  Yeah they're not gonna lead to new business by themselves so… [Nathan]:  Yeah yeah. Exactly. [Chris]:  Yeah. This is one of the reasons why you know when we started doing team meetings and team training we made it clear that outside vendors were not coming in. Because with about 100 agents I have people calling me all the time wanting to get in our sales meetings. “Oh we'll bring breakfast, we just want 15 minutes”.  “I have my agents for an hour. I am not gonna waste 15 minutes of that hour letting you pitch them on something that they don't need to be spending their money on. They don't need to be buying a magazine. They can be doing other things to build their client base. They don't need your website or shiny object or social media tools so that they can manage all.”  Now granted when a lot of people do need those things but for the most part as new agents, people that are growing their business they don't need that stuff. And when they do get up to the point where they need those meetings, those coffees with lenders and marketing people they've got money to spend and that's fine. But off the back just it's a complete waste of time. Just anything that is not getting you directly in front of a client or mailing it so that when you do get in front of a client you are polished and professional; and they want to do business with you, anything other than that not worth it. It's a waste of time. [Nathan]:  I got another one that you all are gonna disagree with me on that. But… [Chris]:  I love disagreeing. [Nathan]:  Maybe I am wrong, maybe I am right. What are people wasting their time on? They are wasting their time on Facebook.  [Chris]:  You're wrong. [laughter] [Nathan]:  I…This [crosstalk] [censored] standing concept in what you're trying to do, I use it as an example Chris. I watch X,Y because you stuck with it. You continue to do it. Then I see these others kind of one head wonders or they do it twice or 3 times, the content sucks. It's got no purpose, no meaning behind it. Just stop. Like you know, 1-just quit. Find another angle but don't be that guy or gal on Facebook if you would because it just gives me some stuff. It's…put some thought. I have a great time but it causes a distraction for me watching your really horrible Facebook post.  So get off Facebook if you're not good at. It's just another one of those things that if you're a new agent and you're on there going weekly as an agent I don't know, it just doesn't do anything for me. And there's gonna be several people out there that I am you know they're gonna say Facebook is the amazement of the world. I will say this and I will challenge anybody.  I had a lender comment a week ago who said “Let's get on Facebook” and I said no. I want to do what's next and here is my belief in what's next. And it's already happening. Is an Instagram app. Why? I look at all the women in my neighborhood that my wife is friends with. And they got off of Facebook, took it off their phones. Have chosen to go to Instagram. And I have asked all of them why. And they said “You know why because there is no [censored] and complaining, there is no whining, theirs is no…” you know any of the negativity. So they have chosen to go to the Instagram realm and Facebook is a thing of the past. So what's next? Maybe, maybe we are already seeing it. [Chris]:  I think that Facebook is going to be around but the extent to which people use Facebook is way more than it needs to be. And I am so guilty of it. Over the last 7 days, 6 hours on Facebook, screen time. [Christian]:  That's disgusting. [Chris]:  I hate this app. I hate the fact that my phone tells me, it judges me and says “This is what you're going”. Now granted a lot of that, primarily most of that is work related, it's keeping up what the conversation is amongst other brokers. It's posting content with other brokers and it's having conversation in those groups. I am not sitting there you know taking quizzes on what cats are. But it's about an hour a day. That's… [Christian]:  You spend that much time on the toilet? That's amazing. [laughter] Or is it just me? That's where I spend most of my Facebook time. [Chris]:  Well I've got 3 kids. So I am trying to you know you've gotta hide. [crosstalk] “Sorry, busy can't come out [laughter]”. No it's…but seriously look at your screen time people because I have and… [Nathan]:  I just…I just did. I am actually proud of myself.  [Chris]:  Yeah? [Nathan]:  Yeah 3 hours in the last 7 days. [Chris]:  Good for you. That's half of the amount I have spent so I am working to spend less and less time doing that. Most of my time is spend mailing messages and then granted, in Instagram. So…But seriously doing that stuff like Facebook, the network, there is a ton of potential there. I would be lying if I said I never got business off of it. But the extent to which most of us use it is just way more than it needs to be. And even with Instagram. You put that much time in Instagram. How many pictures do you need to look at in a day?  So back to, back to the topic at hand. What Christian…anything else? What things are real estate agents wasting their time or money on? What are…Because we spend a lot about time. What are agents wasting their money on?  [Christian]:  I mean this one is kind of controversial but in general buying leads is a waste of time and money. Obviously it kind of depends where they are coming from and stuff but by in large you know I think it's really expensive even if you have a perfect system in place. Otherwise it's really low. The conversion is really low and takes a lot of time.  You know I am more of an organic guy you know like if you…you know if you're gonna built your business being totally based on someone else being able to turn on and off a funnel controlling the quality of those and where those are coming from I don't think that is super sustainable. You know I know some teams here locally that like that's their business. You know, and they spend you know, multiple you know 50-60 thousand in Zillow leads and they're hurting because they're conversion is low and their ROIs is even lower than it has been.  Because of you know, Zillow kind of going through some of their figuring out you know what kind of lead services they're gonna provide and you know and I think like you're talking about with Instagram kind of being the new sexy and you know people going over there. Yeah there's still place for Facebook but the market shifts, the user you know how people use Facebook or Instagram or Zillow that shifts based on the market, based on whether or not…yeah I mean it's shifting you know. 10 years ago Zillow leads were a lot more valuable because there was a lot more people willing to give information out. Nowadays people just want the information but they don't want to put the information out there. I mean like that's… I know from myself my ideal contract is not someone who is naïve enough “I want the information on this house I am going to give you my email and my phone number and my real name”. You're not gonna do that. That's stupid. You know, because they don't want someone calling them because they're not actually in the market buying a house and that's you know 98% of leads who buy form realtor or Zillow is not a real lead. Is gonna be you know as Bufeny [phonetics] says “It's not a lead, that's you know a touchpoint when someone is going to the age”. That's someone curious you know not someone who is ready to buy. So you're gonna spend a lot of time sifting through that for one deal. Like it's not usually worth it. [Chris]:  It's interesting that you bring that up because I have that same kind of thought process before we started doing some work with Zillow and now granted our business model is not run solely off of them but we are…we are a premiere broker with them. And for anybody you know in our audience if you're interested in the premiere broker program just shoot me an email Christ@sellectrealty.com. Two “L”s in Sellect. I am happy to talk to you about it. But there are solid numbers and after running it for 3 weeks now we've got 3 homes in the contract. Those are 3 properties that my agents would have not had otherwise. It's additional revenue to the company. More than covers the cost of the lead generation that we've done. [Christian]:  Does it cover your agents' time they spend in converting them? I mean you've got the hard cost of leads but what are they doing? 8 hours a day… [Chris]:  They're not doing 8 hours a day. They're at about an 11% and conversion rate. Well actually it's higher than that. We've had…We're probably running about a 13%  conversion at a premier broker program. We've had about 22 leads come in and 300 contract so far and 2 active buyers and 3 that are thinking about looking next year that are in conversation. So there's…we're doing it really well. We're putting a lot of time and effort into planning how we're gonna…How we have it set up. [Christian]:  Sure. [Chris]:  And there's a lot of accountability in place with us and I think where people get tied up with lead generation and online lead providers is that accountability factor. There's another agent friend of mine, he is with KW we both went to the knights of Columbus together. You know he, he would go up to spending 300.000 a year on it as long as the ROI is there. And he just closed 3 or 4 buyers this month or last month now. They were all Zillow leads and it's giving him the ROI.  So the…trick with doing Zillow leads or any other lead provider is making sure that you're strategic about it. Trying to find areas that are gonna give you a higher ROI than maybe aiming for the most expensive neighborhood. Right. So there's a lot that goes into it. But I do agree with you. It should not be your full business model. 80% of all deals in real estate are done through people's individual networks and it should remain that way. But as a supplement tool, a way to help new agents grow their business or a way to help agents that are just coming in, if they do it right and they have the right training and the right tools it can be… [Christian]:  If you've set up the right systems and accountability… [Chris]:  It can be beneficial. [Christian]:  You can make it work. [Chris]:  That's the trick. That is the trick 100%. If it's done properly. The problem is most people don't do it properly.  [Christian]:  Right. Well the other problem is new agents come in and they're told “Hey go do this.” You're not gonna…as a new agent you're gonna be out of money before you get your first conversion.  [Chris]:  Right. I wish I could do a mic drop but it's in the thing [laughter]. But yeah. [Christian]:  You probably need big numbers for Zillow to be sending you, you know looking at the average numbers you're talking 2% you're talking you know 100 leads before you get one that converts. [Chris]:  Yeah and that's on row. The 100 leads on row. We're not doing row. We're in the premiere broker program so we have the concierge that is supporting us and helping us and we have…there's the trainers and all sort of stuff. I probably would never have done premiere agent as a solo but as broker I think that the premiere broker program is excellent. [Christian]:  Sure. [Chris]:  And I have been very happy with it so far so…I will be an advocate and haven't closed anything yet but again with 3 weeks in and we've got 300 contracts so if I…Hell if I average 1 closing a week off of this thing than I'm gonna be doubling down. Like…but so far we're just kind of waiting to see. So yes and no. I am kind of in agreement but kind of not. Nate what do you think? You're Redfin partner agent so you're got a little different aspect. [Nathan]:  Redfin partner agent, former Zillow premier agent. My ROI with the Zillow PA program was [censored] so I terminated it. Hopefully I am still a part of one of their small groups that operate, that they seek out agent advice in what direction they're gonna take the premiere agent program on…I again prefer Redfin just because I play on the back end when I close a deal. It's 30%. Again I don't think it's a bad deal. Again I think it depends on your situation. I am on a flat fee model so premiere works and it comes with it. But if you own a 70-30 split than a team split that's probably not right for you. So…you know. [Christian]:  So getting back on topic Nathan do you have any more rants with agents wasting their time and money on?  [Nathan]:  Time Facebook. What else do they waste their time on? We waste our time on a lot of silly things. Again Travis Robertson talks about you know squirrel. We're just distracted like that it doesn't matter right. We're always looking for the next best thing instead of just taking what we have and using that and giving it time to…allow it time to work for us.  I think we're all guilty of getting something and going 2 months later “Well that didn't work”. Well months is not enough time to judge if something works or doesn't work. You know we have talked about this forum and set it. When we started this podcast we said 100 episodes. Because we wouldn't be able to judge anything in 30. But we're just over that. [Christian]:  I judge you guys all the time though. But…Oh that's not what I am talking about. [Nathan]:  That's very true so again… [Chris]:  We'll see how long we make it Christian [laughter].  [Nathan]:  Stop wasting time. That's my big one. It's one I have struggled with. I still struggle with you know find things that work for you. And you know I heard you guys the last week we're talking about…Oh Gosh what was it. Oh it hit me after we're done recording this but I don't know. Something I said in last week's episode that I was not part of. [Chris]:  Last week we were talking about Christian pivoting. [Nathan]:  Oh right you I think Christian had mentioned something about sometimes when you take a break from something and you come back to it you look at it different, right? And so you may be able to find something that didn't work before but works now. So again yeah you may have to pivot. Zillow didn't work for me. When I go back to it if they change the structure probably maybe my attitude will be different. I don't know.  So just kind of parlor up what you talked about last week. Yeah sometimes you do have to pivot and you've got to shift and if not you got still in all. But I don't know time is a big thing with me right now because I am still trying to understand how to manage my time the best and that's between being a dad, being a husband and being a realtor and then wanting to do my own thing. So…Don't get distracted by your own time.  [Chris]:  Alright, well I think that we've kind of given a lot to rant about today in what we think is wasting time and money for agents in the real estate base. Guys before we wrap up for the day, any final thoughts for our audience? [Christian]:  Nope [laughter]. [Nathan]:  Is this going out before the end of the year? [Chris]:  This is going out before the end of the year. [Nathan]:  Well than have an awesome rest of 2018. I hope everybody has already started to think about 2019. If you haven't, than you need to get on it. But I hope that any of our listeners just an awesome holiday period. Great Christmas. Great New Year and just with a great close out to what has been a good year for all of us here and then I hope that everybody that listens and that I share this with that you have a great start of 2019. [Christian]:  Word. Merry Christmas and Happy New year. [Chris]:  Merry Christmas. Happy New year. This is gonna be our last episode for 2018. So we will see you bright and early in 2019. We hope that you have a very blessed Christmas, new year and hit the ground running as soon as we get back. Talk soon everybody. Have a great year.  [music] [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Sam Weinberg is among the most active of New York's newest generation of improvisers. he's worked extensively with Ben Bennett, Jaimie Branch, Sandy Ewen and Weasel Walter. He leads and co-leads W-2 (with Chris Welcome), BLOOR (with Andrew Smiley and Jason Nazary), Maestro Day (with Henry Fraser and Joe Moffett). Most recently he's been focusing on solo saxophone performance as well as sound collage and musique concrete. Today's a good talk with a thoughtful musician.

This episode is brought to you by our sponsor Smoke Proper Rolling Accessories. Save 10% at http://smokeproper.com/discount/OCD. This episode is also brought to you by Conant Construction, LLC. If you're in Southern NH,or Massachusetts and looking to do some remodeling or repairs. Check out Mike on Facebook at http://facebook.com/ConantConstruction110. If you book a project in February and mention the podcast, you'll save 10%. This week we dive into the topic of crypto currency with returning guest Chad Michael Whittaker and his business partner Chris Welcome. Disclaimer - Chad and Chris are not experts by any means, but they have been investing and involved with this technology enough that the knowledge they have is more than I have. Do your research people. You're either investing or gambling. It was a fun conversation and we'll definitely have Chad, Chris, or both back on again. Beer of the Week: Brought to you this week by The Beer Store in Nashua NH. Head to 433 Amherst St. in Nashua NH for a variety of craft beers from all over. With over 800 different brews in stock, and a knowledgeable staff, you're bound to find something that will please your taste buds. http://www.thebeerstorenh.com/ The Ipswich Ale Brewery - Ipswich, MA - Ipswich 1620 - New England IPA 6.3% ABV. http://www.ipswichalebrewery.com/1620.PAGE.html VOTING IS OPEN! Beards, Beers, & Battle Scars was kicked off with our shave date. Please help support the cause and vote for your favorite. 15 participants shaved their faces clean Sunday and will take the next 8-months to grow their beards! You can support them by voting for your FAVORITE guy & beard (once they grow back!). Voting is $5/vote (unlimited voting), the beard with the most votes will win Fan Favorite in August! Click here to vote: http://vetscount.org/nh/events/beards-beers-battle-scars/ Subscribe to our YouTube Channel to now watch our podcast on video, plus when we do live bonus content. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-wC-_oKnsqPPVIpxWi9vOQ Be sure to go to Smoke Proper and help support the podcast. SmokeProper.com/discount/OCD Or, if you are looking to do some remodeling, repairs, or create a unique look, email Mike at conantconstruction110@gmail.com to get a free quote, and book an appointment. *This product is intended for adult use of tobacco products. This is not intended for people under the legal age for those uses.*

Leon, Gareth and Russell pay tribute to Chris Coleman and critique the candidates to replace him. Based on the showings in the games against France and Panama they consider what sort of legacy Coleman leaves his successor. Mae Leon, Gareth a Russell yn talu'r deyrnged i Chris Coleman a dadansoddi yr ymgeiswyr i ddod ar ei ôl. Yn deillio ar y dangosiadau yn y gemau yn erbyn Ffrainc a Phanama y maent yn ystyried pa fath o etifeddiaeth bod Coleman yn ei gadael ar gyfer ei olynnydd.

Chris: Welcome to the ‘Tech Lowdown Show’. I’m your host Chris Jones. Today we’ve got a special treat for you as we’re getting out of the studio and talking to speakers and attendees at the ‘Tech Inclusion Conference’ held in Seattle, created by ‘Change Catalyst’ and hosted by ‘Galvanized’. The...

Chris: Welcome to the ‘tech lowdown show’.  Each episode will be discussing opportunities in the tech space of entrepreneurs from the U.S. and around the world. I’m your host Chris Jones. Our guest today is literally changing the face of the tech world. The statistics on women in the tech...

    Chris: Welcome to The Tech Lowdown show, where each episode will be discussing opportunities in the tech space with entrepreneurs from the US and around the world. I’m your host, Chris Jones.   Any entrepreneur knows that raising funds to start and grow business can be extremely difficult....

  Chris: Welcome to The Tech Lowdown show where each episode will be discussing opportunities in the tech space with entrepreneurs from the US and around the world. I’m your host Chris Jones. I remember arriving at business school many years ago. And meeting people whose brains were just wired...

  Chris : Welcome to the tech lowdown show. Where each episode we talk with thought leaders and a tech space and entrepreneurs from the U.S and around the world. I’m your host Chris Jones. Recently one of the listeners to the show asked me about the future of social...

Loveline meets Guys We Fucked! Amber and Dr. Chris open the Loveline doors to Krystyna Hutchinson & Corinne Fisher, the ladies behind the show, Guys We Fucked. Together they talk everything sex and answer your questions!  Leave your voicemail at 213-375-5258 or tweet your question using #Loveline for your chance to be a part of the show.  

In this episode we sit down with Centricity Music General Manager, Steve Ford. 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a:hover{color:#8f8f8f !important;} www.fullcirclemusic.orgFCM007_-_Relationships_with_Steve_FordDuration: 00:50:21You're listening to The Full Circle Music Show. The why of the music biz.Chris: Welcome back to the Full Circle Music Show, it’s Chris Murphy and I'm sitting right beside Seth Mosley. How are you buddy?Seth: I'm good man. It's a busy week, lots of good stuff going on over here at the studio. And I’m excited to take just a few minutes out of our schedule to talk to one of our favorite people in the industry, Mister Steve Ford.Steve has been a guy that I've known for a long time, was one of the people that I met moving to Nashville in the music business. And we've talked to a lot of people on the creative side so far but we haven't yet talked to anybody on the label side. So, you think of the guy that sits in a dark room with a suit in a corner office, that's this guy! Except for not, he actually sits in a what is a pretty awesome office, he's the general manager of a label company called Centricity Music; has been pretty massively successful in the past couple of years and really since they opened. But, he's a really great leader and speaks to what they look for in a good producer, in a good artist, in a good team member at their label.So, if you're wanting to get involved in the music industry, this is a great episode to listened to. I learned a ton and I think you will too.Chris: You know, being a podcast junky, it's nice to meet a fellow podcast enthusiast as well. We had some great conversations in the episode but also talked a lot about our favorite podcasts on and off the mic. He's just a great guy, great to get to know him and I really appreciate Seth you setting this up. Another great interview and I can't wait to listen to it.Seth: And you can check out his company at centricitymusic.com. They have a lot of great artists that I think you'll dig.Audio clip commencesHey podcast listeners, something is coming February 1st 2016. Have you ever thought about a career in song writing or music production? We have created a couple courses with you guys in mind. We've been getting a lot of feedback on people wanting to know more about how to become a song worker; how to become a professional music producer or engineer. These courses were designed to answer some of those questions. Go to fullcirclemusic.org and sign up there for more information.Audio clip endsChris: You were saying earlier before we started rolling that you were a podcast guy.Steve: Oh yeah, big podcast guy.Chris: And, you've heard this podcast before?Steve: Yeah. I've listened to the first three.Chris: Okay. So, can I ask you to go out on a limb and give us a grade so far?Steve: You know what? I'd give them a solid B+. I want them longer. That's my thing; I want to go into the background. I want to hear when you did Brown Banishers which is funny because I've worked a lot with Brown but you didn't get past Amy Grant.Seth: Sure.Steve: I mean, this is the guy who worked with from everybody from Third Day to Mercy Me to Why Heart, he's done everybody like come one there are stories there. I tell people I'm on the corporate side because of Brown Banisher because of how he worked. I was an engineer in LA for ten years and he would come out and mix records with us, it was at a little place called Mama Joes and I would see him on the phone going, “Happy birthday sweetie.” Later knowing that it was Ellie; missed her first walk and all of these other things. And when my daughter was born, I was like, I can't do this. I needed a life and so I started praying and Peter York calls. So it’s because of him so it's fun to hear some his stories. I did a lot of records win Jack Joseph Puig and–Seth: And you were engineering at the time?Steve: Yeah. I was an engineer at LA.Seth: And at the time that was really engineering?Steve: Oh my gosh.Seth: You were cutting tape and…Steve: Yeah! I've cut a lot of two inch tape, quarter inch tape, half inch–Seth: Stuff that I hope to never do.Steve: You don't have to, Jericho does it for you.[Laughter] Seth: I don't know if Jericho has ever cut tape? In school he did.Steve: Now, I feel really old.Chris: Is that kind of like when you're in a biology class and not in any other time of your life will you need to dissect a frog but you just have to do it for the experience of it. Is that what it's become cutting tape?Steve: I don't know if you have to do it even that. It's sort of like this legend of starting a fire with flint, you know? It's sort of like, “Yeah. I used to cut tape.”[Laughter] Seth: I mean there's probably a resurgence. I would imagine knowing the process of what coffee has become and how artists.Steve: Yeah.Seth: I think there's a big thing in maybe it's the millennial generation or whatever it is but I think people are drawn back to slower, older more hands on processes it seems like than just pushing the button or going through the drive through–Steve: And somethings, don't you think, in some things its like just give me the button. Give me the filter on Instagram.Seth: That is true! That's true but then you've got the whole wave of people roasting their own coffee beans now and then they're grinding the with a hand grinder, and then they're putting in a… And, I'm saying this because we have like three artists that we work with; that come in and they bring their whole coffee apparatus.Steve: And they measure how much coffee goes in, weigh it?Chris: Yeah.Steve: My son has one of those has a scale that weighs, how much coffee goes in. Oh yeah just …Chris: Yeah, I thought you were going to say some of the artists that you work with, they actually bring their own barista in the studio because–Steve: I'm sure that will happen.Seth: That’s kind of a prerequisite to be in a band. There has to be at least one barista.Steve: True.Seth: In the band.Steve: There has to be one business guy in every band and one guy who can make great coffee.Seth: And then the guy who can actually play the instruments.Steve: Yeah. Then the artist.[Laughter]Chris: And then the fourth guy on base who just knows how to shape everybody's beards. He's more of a grooming guy.Seth: And sometime there's a drummer.[Laughter] Steve: You don't need a drummer; there are machines for that now.[Laughter] Seth: Yeah. I mean, just take us through a little bit of your journey, you started in L.A.?Steve: I was born and raised in L.A.; read an article when I was 14 years old about this guy named Sir George Martin. And I was like, “What? You can do that for a living?”Seth: Who is George Martin?Steve: He produced this little band called the Beatles, probably never heard of…most 20 year olds haven't heard of them so…Chris: And then isn't true that he went on from there to write The Game of Thrones?Steve: Did he? I'm not a Game of Throne person–Chris: Okay that's R.R. Martin, sorry.Steve: Wrong one. But I mean, you read about these guys and you sort of open a door into a new world that you didn't know existed. And so, I was 18 years old, junior out of high school walked into the recording studios and started from there.Seth: So, you didn't wait to have some sort of a college thing to get internships?Steve: My mom was like Reeds parents which was like, “That’s a nice hobby but let's make sure you have a backup plan, a plan B.” And so, I still went to school, I still went to college did all of that. Don't ask me my grade point average because I was going home at 4 o'clock in the morning, waking up at 8 to crawl into my first class, it was terrible. But yeah, my first job in the recording studio, I was making $500 a month from 6 o'clock to 3 o'clock in the morning.Seth: Living in L.A?Steve: Living in L.A.Seth: And that probably paid for a tenth of the rent?Steve: Maybe.Chris: Or, just the gas to get around?Steve: But I loved every second of it. And then from there you sort of work your way up. So, I did that… Like I said earlier my daughter was born and I was like an engineer’s life is a hard life in LA especially. Those were the days when you'd pay $1,500 a day block booking a studio; you booked a studio and you're paying $1,500 if your there six hours or eight there 24 hours. And a lot of them stayed 24 hours, and you just have next, next, next, next.Chris: And you've got to be the first guy there.Steve: First guy there, last guy out, yeah. You're sitting there winding tables at 6 o'clock in the morning going, “I just want to go home.”Chris: When the bug caught you, from that point until the time that you walked into that first studio and got a job, what skills were you harnessing?Steve: None.Chris: Just reading liner notes?Steve: Yeah. Lying in the floor, reading and going, there's one in North Hall and I'd write it down on a piece of paper because I grew up in the San Fernando Valley and start looking for them. Hey man that where Bill [inaudible 8:50] studio is or whatever the studio was and start. There wasn't really a whole lot you can do to prepare for it. It's no like in high school you go, “I wonder what class…”  I was in all the choirs and all the music stuff and that didn't prepare you for it. Probably the greatest skills for a studio engineer especially a starting one is being attentive, being hungry, being prepared and that depends on who you're working with.When you working together with somebody so well, I'm sure you and your team, they know what you want in advance and plugin something in before you even have to ask, that’s just working together. I've told a lot of wannabe engineers who want to go to some of these very expensive schools, don’t do it. Take that money, live on it for two years and go give yourself away for free for two years. You learn more two years in a studio than you will however long you go to one of the expensive ones.Chris: Yeah.Steve: It's just doing it. Just aligning the tape machine which is once again, it's like starting fire with flint again, knowing the lines taped but you learn by doing that.Chris: Absolutely.Steve: You learn by making a lot of mistakes. I recorded a lot of bad drum sounds.[Laughter] It just happened and then you go, “Oh if I do this, its better.” And 10,000 hours man, it takes 10,000 hours.Chris: Again, I think that it's not that schooling is necessarily a bad thing but the way that you learn in life versus the way that you learn in a classroom is different because for the most part, a classroom will deduct points for the stakes and if you’re in the–Steve: That's true. Good point.Chris: Yeah. I heard that -actually going back to our love of podcasts here- I heard Tim Farris on his podcast talking about the fact that he was going to go to, was considering something like Princeton or Harvard or something to go get his MBA. And he thought instead of doing that -or maybe this was advice given to him and he took it- instead of taking that couple hundred thousand dollars worth of whatever I needed to go get my MBA. I'm going to invest that in myself, very similar to what you're saying. And I'm going to use that to live on so that way I can go and I can intern for that company that I would never be able to if the money mattered that much. Because once you get out of school its like, “Oo I've got to go do something with this.” But if you've got the money set aside to go get the MBA anyway, it goes a long way to really feeling free to not have to pay that rent or pay that car payment that you could really dive in.Steve: And most people never use their college education for what they use. I had a meteorologist specialist. She had a degree in meteorology for TV and she was my marketing assistant. And you go, “I want to see what you spent four years doing versus what's your grade point average or what's you major.” I don't care about that stuff.Seth: So to fast forward to today, you are general manager of a very successful record label. When you got to hire somebody to your team, do you even say, “Hey, send in your resume. Where did you go to college?” Or does that not even cross your mind?Steve: I do want to see that. Four years in college gives me the impression that they follow through, they finish. You’ve said it before, finishing is such a hard art in today's world. To have somebody who finished is very valuable. Do I care about your grade point average? No. Do I even care about your major? No. Because if you have the right work ethic and the right heart, I can train you to do other things but I want to see how hard you're willing to work.Seth: So, a college degree still carries some weight but maybe it doesn't carry the weight that people think it does in terms of having the training because you kind of have to relearn it all when you get out into the real world.Steve: Exactly. Most college students that I see haven't learned anything that’s a really good use at a record label. My last five hires at Centricity have all come from internships. Now, I've had a lot of bad interns. I've wanted to fire a couple of interns, that's pretty bad when you want to fire somebody who works for free.Seth: What defines a good intern and what defines a bad intern?Steve: A bad intern sits on Facebook until you give them something to do and then they do exactly just to the letter of the law of what you asked them to do, hand it in to you and then get back on Facebook. A great intern does what you do and says, “Hey and I thought about this. And what about this more?” You give them to go to D and they go to G; then you give them to G and they go to S. I have a girl in my office, I asked her to do one thing and she says “Oh by the way while I was thinking about it I did these other three things that will help you out.” That type of proactivity and thinking ahead is so incredibly valuable. Like having somebody patching in your compressor before you ask for it. They know where you're going so fast that they're working ahead of you. And for all of those out there, that's old school once again patch bays.[Laughter]Seth: We have a small patch bay, we have two patch bays actually so we're probably on the old school end of things.Chris: It looks very cool though. It's looks kind of old science fiction movie.Steve: Spaghetti.[Laughter] Seth: It's like a telephone operator kind of thing. I heard a thing on…man, we keep talking about podcast, we're all just podcasts nerds, dude. I think that’s what we do for a living is listen to podcasts. And I heard one last night, they did a study of millennials; if you had a dream job, pick out of these choices what would be your dream job. Number one was the president; number two was a senator; number three was a successful athlete; number four foreign diplomat; five was a CEO of Apple; and then the last choice was the personal assistant to a famous actor or athlete. And 45% I think picked that one, hands down.Steve: They have no idea what that job looks like.Seth: They don't but it also speaks to they don't want to take the responsibility. Like, when you're that person, when you're the boss, they want to have a boss and maybe you can speak to a little bit to that but I feel like when you were talking about the internships, the ones who go above and beyond are the ones who are willing to take some responsibility and say, “Here's an idea” and just put it out there. How many interns would you have to get, to get that one good one?Steve: Probably 10 to 15.Seth: 10 to 15 to 1?Steve: Yeah, to 1. I think that’s what it is.Chris: Wow.Steve: Yeah, that's what it is. And I heard you, I think we had the conversation, there's such a different work ethic in today's young adults. And part of it is my fault, I'm a parent of a young adult they've been given everything in their whole life, they haven't had to work for anything. You want that iPhone! Here's that iPhone. You want that? Here's that. The art and the craft of working, the labor of getting something is a lost art, I think.Seth: So, would you go back and do those things differently?Steve: For my kids? My kids had to work.[Laughter]Seth: So, you weren't saying from my experience, you weren't–Steve: I’m saying that personally and much more of…[Laughter]What we made our kids do is like when they wanted that $100 American girl doll is you buy half, we’ll buy half. And all of a sudden they're digging out rocks in the backyard at $1 a bucket out of the garden. Because you want to give your kids what the value of work is and that's that doll at the end.In our world, I sat with an intern once and he was irritating everybody in the office. He's that guy who only asks questions because he wanted to tell you how much he knew. An intern needs to be quite and listen because there's a lot of information that flows around… And then they find the person that they can go to and go, what did that mean when he said this? So, what did that mean or… Come to me! I've told everyone in my internship, feel free to come to me and say, what does it mean when you said that? Versus this guy would come to you and tell you everything he knew. So, I was sitting him down one day and going,  “Man, you're irritating everybody. The whole office wants to prove you wrong.”Seth: You literally said that?Steve: I said that to him and later on, “I know I do that. I'm just trying to figure out where I fit and trying to find a job make $100, $120,000 a year and start in the music industry.” And I said, “You're in the wrong industry, man.”Seth: Go into finance!Steve: Go into finance, or go be an architect somewhere I guess or something. It was just about wanting to make as much money as his dad did, now! This generation wants to start where their parents have gotten to right now. I've seen it with artists, I've seen it with interns–Chris: They don't want a drop in their lifestyle that they've become accustomed to.Seth: A luxury once had, becomes a necessity.Steve and Chris: Ooohh.Steve: Very nice.Seth: And I'm very guilty of that. You fly first class once and you feel like a swine by sitting in coach.[Laughter] Steve: I've flown private jets twice in my whole life, in my whole career both times sort of accidentally. And man, once you do a private jet and you don't have to go through security and you’re just like, “Oh, I want that.” I say this all the time about artists. The worst thing you can do for an artist is start them touring in a bus because that's the expectation and then you know what happens? Is they got on the bus and they’re, “This isn't a very nice bus.” There are people in vans like when you were out in a van, to be on a bus, to be able to sleep horizontally would be the greatest thing ever and just because you started at this place and then you get into private jets. Everybody needs to start their first tour in a Silverado truck and then the next one to a bigger–Seth: Graduate to a suburban!Steve: A suburban would be great, then a 15 passenger old church van that you bought for $5,000 that the left side of the speakers don't work. And then, you work your way into a [inaudible 19:58] van and then into a bus. Then you're grateful for everything that's better along the way.Seth: It's more about the process than anything.Steve: Yeah.Seth: And getting there.Steve: A wise manager once said, his job is to make his artists life better every year, just a little bit better. I'm like, that's a good goal. That's a good goal to have.Seth: It is. So, your transition, we shipped about 20 years–Steve: We skipped through it very fast.[Laughter] Your transition from doing that 6pm to 3 in the morning thing in LA, you had your baby…Steve: Yep. My wife and I were praying at that point going, “God, please give us some sane clients or open another door.” And I just worked probably two months before with Peter York–Seth: And for those out there listening, was this at a record label you got your first…Steve: I was working with Peter in the studio and he called me up and said, “Hey, are you interested in A&R?” And I started in A&R in Sparrow…what's that 87, 88? Right around there and we were still in Chatsworth, California, spent time out there with him. So, I’ve been at Sparrow, moved from Sparrow to Star Songs and then back to Sparrow when they came up. Started in A&R worked my way into the marketing side, artist development side… So, yes back to Sparrow went to  Mer and worked my way up to Vice President at marketing at Mer, was general manager at [inaudible 21:34], general manager at SRI and now general manager at Centricity.Chris: Wow.Steve: It's been a long journey. If you’d ask me to 25 or 30 years ago, were you going to be general manager at Record Label? I would have laughed in your face.[Laughter]Chris: Because you didn't think it was attainable or because you didn't want have this job?Steve: That was not the path I was on. I thought, I was going to be producing records and engineering records.  Jack Pueg is still mixing great great records out there and I thought I was going to follow that path. God had something very different in mind which makes me laugh going I was talking to [inaudible 22:09] this morning and I can't believe I’ve been doing this, this long. When you're now an industry veteran it means that you've been around a long time.Seth: But I don't think looking back and I don’t want to put words in your mouth but you don't strike me as one of those people that's looking back and feeling like you’re working in the corporate side of the industry because you never made it on the creative side.Steve: No, no.Seth: You don't strike me as that at all.Steve: I made that decision for my family. What's funny is I've learned more about engineering and more about mixing and more about mastering being on the corporate side of what we're trying accomplish and why trying to do what we're doing. I learned so much about that. And for the first year or so, I was mad at God going, “Why did I just spend 9, 10 years in studios, in dark rooms working long hours if this is where you wanted me?” But realize, every day of my life in the last 27 years in the corporate side I've used information I learned in the studio. Sometimes we can't ask God why until you're 20 years down and you go, “oh I get it.”It's the path he puts us on, he brings people in and out of your life. I remember a girl over at Sparrow she was an accountant, that was her thing she loved accounting and God put me with her to learn that whole budgeting, it was only like for four months and then we were separated again but once again she changed my perspective and my life for the next 20 years. So, you don't know if these people that are coming in and out of your life are for a short period of how they're going to impact you.But yeah, I've sort of worked my way, I was one of the strange guys everybody wants to be in A&R. I started in A&R and left to got to marketing and then got back into it as I moved back up into the but everybody wants to be an A&R guy, hang out in the studios and have dinner with the artists which is not what an A&R guy does.Chris: Well it's the perception out there–Steve: Yeah, exactly, that's what they think.Chris: Just like you saying the artist is going to be in private jets.Seth: And for honestly if somebody's out there, can you break down what exactly what it is A&R. What is that? What is that job?Steve: A&R, we [inaudible 24:27] airports and restaurants which is [inaudible 24:28].[Laughter]It’s artist and repertoire. It’s basically looking for artist, finding people that have a seedling of something. Sometimes you don’t know what it is. We’ve all got our standards of what we feel like will lead to success. But finding that, nurturing it, grooming it, it’s sort of the mustard seed put into the ground, pat around and hopefully something really great grows out of it. Sometimes the plants don’t live, sometimes they give up. But it basically the music made by the A&R guy, we have one of the best in the industry in Centricity. When he’s done, when the music is done, he hands the baton over to me, and I go everywhere from there. But it’s his job to make sure we have hits, we have songs that work for live or work on the radio, an artist that’s got uniqueness to him that fits differently than everything else in the market place and sometimes it’s just plain old dumb luck. We’ve got all those where we’re like, “We though this person had everything they needed, was need for success and it didn’t work, and this one over here it’s that seedling and it’s just growing like crazy.Seth: Yeah, sometimes you don’t know or probably more often than not, I would think.Steve: How many songs have you worked on and said, “Man, that’s the hit.” I have a memory of I will eat my shoe if this is not [inaudible 26:04][Laughter] I believe you owe me a shoe eaten.Seth: I’m wearing Nikes right now. I have a feeling that this material is not organic.Chris: I was going to say, whatever you choose make sure its biodegradable.Steve: I was going to send you a shoe after one particular sock.[Laughter]We’ve all got them dude.Seth: Oh yeah, totally. I think more often than not and it’s honestly becoming a theme on this show is, we’re all just kind of winging it we’re all just guessing. So, my question to that is, I mean, it sounds like there’s a lot of responsibility placed on the shoulders of an A&R person. They’re the one that’s finding and nurturing talent and ultimately seeing what songs make it on records.I think a lot of people listening in our podcast audience, we have a lot of producers and writers and people outside of the music industry but then there are also probably some people who are just wanting to get in on the music business side and people who maybe want to be in music marketing or be in music management or maybe do what you’re doing someday, run a record label. You said what you look for interns, what qualifies a person to be an A&R person?Steve: Wow. Interesting. There are a few A&R guys you should interview. A great A&R person is able to inspire an artist beyond what they’ve every thought they could do. A great A&R person knows how to get a good song to a great song. We’re no longer in a society that good is not good enough, it has to be great. A great A&R guy can go, “You know what? There are seedlings, there are moments in here that are really great.” But you’re missing the mark I these two or three places. And then, coming in and sitting side by side with a producer like you and making sure that… I think that I’m a big movie buff and A&R guy is sort of like an executive producer on a movie where you put the team together and then sort of let the team go make the music. So, it’s the right producer for the right, for the right song and for the right artists and then let them shine where they go. It’s very much putting the pieces together. They’re not usually playing the music, they’re not [inaudible 28:34] musicians, they have to have a really good song sense and I think one of the skills an A&R guy has to know is, it’s not about them. They’ve got to know their audience, know what they’re making for because all of us have a tendency to gravitate towards music that’s on the fringe because we listen to so much stuff that all of the stuff in the middle starts mucking up. There’s a big muck in the middle. So, “you know what I like? I like this thing way over here or way over there.” Where a normal consumer listens to 10 records a year, the middle is the sweet spot for them. So, an A&R guy that understands who he’s trying to record for is very important.Seth: That’s very good. And, you said that they have to have a great song sense, that is even a sticky situation because why is one person’s song sense better than the other? Is that determined by track record? And, if you’ve never done A&R before, how do you prove that, hey I know a hit when I hear one?Steve: You know what? Our history of…John Mays is a 25 years somebody took a chance on him 27 years ago and said “You’re a great musician on the road, let me bring you in here.” Part is the relationship, you know, can they sit and hang with an artist? You know, you’ve been in these mediums. Where it’s like can you move an artist from A to Z while making the artist think it’s their move? As a producer it’s the same skill set of can you get an artist to bend without knowing that they’re bending? Or being able to move–Seth: All the artists out there, they just had a–Steve: I know they had a convulsion.[Laughter]And all the producer are like, yeah![Laughter]But that’s part of it, of like how do you get a song… because you don’t want to tell an artist, “You know what? This song sucks.” You just want to say, “Let’s work on the chorus. The chorus isn’t paying off hard enough, let’s make it lift better. Let’s make it shine.” Whatever it may be, moving them away from, “I love this, this is my baby. It’s beautiful.” To let’s keep working on this song.Seth: So, it sounds like it maybe starts with who they are as a person. Are they a good hang? Are they a servant? And then, the music kind of just follows and that taste follows.Steve: Our young A&R guy over there, he went through our radio department so he was listening to radio hits, radio hits, radio hits. And part of it is… There’s marketing guy named Roy Williams, I went to a seminar with him and he said he has a friend that works at General Market Record Label to pick all the singles and I’m like, “How did you learn this?” And the guy basically said, “Since I was five years old, every week I’d get my allowance and I would go buy the number one song in America.” And so for his whole life, he poured into himself hits. This is what a hit sounds like, this is what a hit sounds like, this is what a hit sounds like.Seth: That’s pretty good wisdom, right there.Steve: And so, at a certain point you go, you got to know our music, you got to listen to our music, you got to know what a hit sounds like. I’ve heard a lot of kids come though “I hate listening to Christian radio.” Then why do you listen to Christian music? How many people in country music go, “[inaudible 32:11] but I hate country music.” Get out! You’re not going to succeed.[Laughter]But they almost wear it as a banner that I hate Christian music in our market place. We have an open concept office and I’ll try to listen to two hours of Christian radio every day in my office. And if I’m listening to it, everybody in my office is listening to it too; more for this is what a hit sounds like, this is what radio sounds lie. If you’re trying to meet a need at radio and you don’t know what they’re playing, how can you meet the need? So…I digress, sorry.Seth: No, that’s gold. That’s all gold.Steve: I think you nailed it in your earlier podcast when you said, this is a servant industry. It really is. And in my life, it took me a lot of time to figure out what my calling was. I knew I wasn’t an artist but God, what does that mean? And I was walking through Exodus with my kids when they were very young and hit Exodus 17 where God say to Moses, they’re out of Egypt heading towards the Promised Land and they hit the Analcites, God calls Moses up to the hill top; arms up in the air he wins, arms down they lose. But what never caught to me until I was reading it, Moses took two people along with him Aaron and Hur and I love to say I am the Hur in the Moses’ life. It’s my job, what Hur was up there to do is to hold Moses’ arms up, that’s all he did. When Moses was weak, when Moses needed help, Hur held his hands up. That’s my calling be a servant, be there to hold your hands up. Some people know Aaron “Aaron, you know, Moses’ little brother.” No one knows who Hur is. If you’re okay standing, holding someone’s arms up and no one recognizes, you are created to be in the music industry. Because you’re not in to be the rock stars; we’re in the back of the room with our arms folded, looking at the person on stage going, “Yeah. I was there to hold their arms up.”Chris: That’s wise. One of my favorite movies is That Thing You Do, I don’t know if any of you have seen that.Steve: Yeah. I’m the guy that goes, “You look great in black.”[Laughter]Chris: Has anyone told you that?Steve: Yeah.Chris: But, one of my favorite characters in the movie, and they’re filled with them. Anybody out there that hasn’t seen it, it’s a great movie.Steve: Please, go see it.Chris: But there’s Horus who’s basically the A&R guy that sees them in–Steve: In the camper-[Laughter]Chris: Yeah, he lives in a camper and he’s essentially the A&R guy. But he sees them in a performance at an Italian restaurant or something and comes and buys their album and get’s them to sign a little deal. And then at the end, when they get signed to a major label and they’re going out to play these state fairs, Horus leaves and the main character drummer of the band says, “We don’t want you to leave.” And he goes, “My [inaudible 35:27] is done. I’ve done what I’m supposed to do.” And then move on to the next thing and so he wasn’t meant to ride that out the whole movie; he’s there for a specific piece to move it from A to C. He’s the B part of it, the Hur of that story so to speak.Steve: Nowadays, you’d call them just production deals. You start working with an unknown artist who has a little bit of talent, you start developing them and then you start shopping them to record labels. And then you go, my job here is done. They then take the baton and now try to make to a national artist. If you make 2 out of 20, 3 out of 20, you’re in great shape. You’re a hall of fame baseball player if you hit 3 out of 10. And you’re a hall of fame A&R guy if 3 out of your 10 are hit artists.It’s a cycle, you have the young artist going up; you have the artist at their peak; and then you have some that are on their way down. And you’ve got to keep that circle going because any artist that’s been at the top is going to be past its peak and slowly work its way down, and you got to have the new artist coming up behind to grow into. So it’s a continual cycle of in the music industry. The circle of life in music would be that.Chris: I had a mentor –Scott [inaudible 36:48] if you’re listening I’m about to talk about you- but he always talked about how life in the ministry or in a career is kind of like looking at life or the people that you interact is like a watching a parade go by. There are things that are right in front of you, there are things that you just saw, and there are things that are coming down. And to really appreciate what is happening in the parade you have to absorb it all. And so there’s a little bit of grabbing from each of those in order to get the full experience of it all.Steve: And the bigger what’s right in front of you, the bigger those artists are in front of you, sometimes you don’t have time to look behind and develop what’s behind and what happens is with a lot of these record labels and I’ve been at these where, man they’ve got the big, and they slowly slipping. The [inaudible 37:32] slowly start getting past their prime and they haven’t developed anything behind them and then you’re in trouble because you’ve got this machine you’ve got to feed and you haven’t created for the future, it’s only for the present.And so, every A&R guy wants to sing but some of the big labels, the big artists, the A’s are so big that’s all they’re paying attention to. We’ve all seen it, we’ve all seen artists where we say, “Man, they’re amazing” but they got lost in the shuffle and that’s the sadness. We forget that we’re playing with people’s lives, especially on the record label side their dreams.I signed this band at a label and they were 18 years old when I signed them and 21 years old when I had to drop them. So, their dreams had come true and shattered by the time they were 21. And it’s just hard when you start thinking about that stuff.Chris: That’s true. And if you think about it there are some people that are fortunate enough to have a full career in the music industry and there are some people that have a three year window kind of like a profession sports guy or those things. There’s a window and the once you pass it, yeah but the guy is only 24 and the band is only 21. What’s coming up for them?Steve: You know what, I think it’s a catalyst of those people leaving or burning out, is balance. You guys have said it; I can walk through a record label at 8 o’clock at night and I can tell you which employees will be gone in a year because they have nothing to put back into themselves. The music industry is a take industry, it just continues squeezing and it just wants more and more and more. If you have one they want five; if you have five we want ten; if we have ten we want twenty, and it’s never enough. My poor radio team goes, “Hey we got number one.” And I’m like, “Great. How do we keep it on number one for another week?” It’s never enough and so you continue squeezing out what this industry does, if you don’t have a ministry, if you don’t have a relationship, if you don’t have friends that give back to you that don’t care what you do  for a living and basically go, “Yeah, yeah. You do music, how are you?” You know, if there aren’t nursing students at the college that you got to that are your friends, you’re going to burn out.  Because there’s nothing giving back, there’s no one pouring into you. Sooner or later the candle ends, there’s no more fuel and it juts burns out.So, I try to keep my staff saying, I want you to go to concerts and date people and go home at 6 o’clock and have a life. Because if you don’t have a life you have nothing to come back when you come back tomo

AFTS Cast: Mickie, JJ, Kurt, Mike, Joe, and special guest Chris Welcome to the character creation extended episode for our Dungeon World campaign; Perils of Parandisi!  We begin with Kurt, Mike, Joe, and special guest Chris.  Later, everyone joins as we talk Dungeon World and character creation.  Enjoy the podcast!  

AFTS Cast: Mickie, JJ, Kurt, Mike, Joe, and special guest Chris Welcome to the character creation extended episode for our Dungeon World campaign; Perils of Parandisi!  We begin with Kurt, Mike, Joe, and special guest Chris.  Later, everyone joins as we talk Dungeon World and character creation.  Enjoy the podcast!  

Chris: Welcome once again to BrandingBlog SoundBites with Wizard of Ads Partner Dave Young from BrandingBlog.com. I’m Chris Loghry. Hello Dave. Dave: Hi Chris. Chris: We wanted to talk about Impact Quotient. I would like to start by asking you what that means to a client. Dave: Well, simply put, Impact Quotient is an ad’s […]

Chris: Welcome to BrandingBlog SoundBites. I’m Chris Loghry along with Dave Young from BrandingBlog.com and a Wizard of Ads Partner. We’ve talked about several things. We’ve included the Ad Budget Calculator in a couple of the podcasts. You can always go back to that and check that out online. There’s a link to that on […]