Podcast appearances and mentions of ed they

Triage and treatment tents have become ubiquitous in the current pandemic, improving throughput and keeping infectious but relatively well patients outside of the hospital. In this episode, emergency physician Josh Bucher, assistant professor at the Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, breaks down how his team has set up and uses their tent.  Discussed here: arrival logistics, initial screening, flow through the tent, using telehealth rather than an in-person clinician, and making the decision of discharge home or send to the emergency department.   The “why” of using tents for triage and treatment of COVID-19 patients is generally the same, but the “how” differs. This episode gives insight into how one New Jersey hospital is doing it.   Tent hours, staffing and volume   They average 40 patients per day. Open from 11am - 11pm, anticipating expansion to 9am - 1am. The more patients they can see in the tent, the less time and resources they’ll need to devote to terminal cleaning of contaminated ED rooms. Typical surge of patients is from 5pm - 8pm. 2 nurses staff the tent at all times. Nurse shifts are 4 consecutive hours without a scheduled break.   What happens when patients first arrive to the ED? They go to a small triage tent outside the main entrance of the ED which is staffed with a nurse and a registrar, both in full PPE . Vitals are taken (temp, pulse ox, heart rate but not BP). Patients are assessed to see if they meet tent criteria: Symptoms of fever (>100.4℉), URI symptoms, cough, and/or SOB. Not overtly dyspneic or toxic appearing. Age < 60 HR < 130 bpm Pulse ox ≥ 95. They are considering lowering that pulse ox threshhold to allow more patients through the tent process     Patients who meet tent criteria are masked and directed to walk over to the tent. Then what? Visitors are not allowed to accompany them into the tent. They stop at a table to get a piece of paper on which they enter their own registration info. Full registration processing takes place later. A nurse guides the patient to a chair which is facing a telehealth robot device.  The nurse asks triage questions and gets a medical history. A physician is listening (aided by the robot) and simultaneously entering information into the EMR. The robot has a stethoscope attached to facilitate lung auscultation, though the audio quality is poor. Facetime on a phone or tablet could be used as a substitute for a robot. No diagnostic testing is done in the tent (including COVID-19 testing). This is due to limited supply.   The only patients tested for COVID are those being admitted. Disposition from the tent. Physician makes decision about discharge from tent vs. ED admission.  This is largely clinical judgement. Overt dyspnea, hypoxia at rest, pulse ox dropping to the mid 80s on standing in place ambulation for 20-30 seconds are some of the factors used to decide on disposition. 95% of patients are discharged.  Patients are told they likely have COVID and of the need to self-quarantine. Return precautions stress the need to return for difficulty breathing. Discharge instructions printed from printer in tent. 5-6 patients per day are sent to the ED for further evaluation.   What PPE is being used? Staff in the tent wear a Tyvek suit, N95 mask, multiple pairs of gloves, and a face shield. The outer pair of gloves is changed between patients. PAPRs and CAPRs are in short supply and reserved for the OR and ED staff performing high risk procedures (ie. intubation).   How is transmission of infection minimized in the tent? The tent is completely under negative pressure. Any surface touched by a patient is wiped down with a bleach wipe. Throughput is typically quick, so there is less risk of spreading droplets. Entire process from triage to discharge can take as little as 15 min. Patients move through the tent in one direction and don’t spend a prolonged time in one spot. This minimizes exposure to the staff.

What is buyer intent data and how are marketers using content-level buyer intent data to get incredible inbound marketing results? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Intentdata.io Chief Revenue Officer Ed Marsh breaks down the topic of buyer intent data, and specifically talks about how contact-level buyer intent data works, and how marketers can use it to get better marketing and sales results. Highlights from my conversation with Ed include: Ed defines intent data as "the collection of signals that indicate that somebody may be in market ready to buy your product or service." While it is a relatively new term, we all have intent data available to us. There are three kinds of intent data. First party data is what we have through the analytics software we use (ex. HubSpot). Second party comes from companies that sell data they gather through their own platforms. Third party data is collected from throughout the internet. Most intent data providers give you company-level data. Intentdata.io provides contact-level data which specifies exactly which individuals are taking high intent actions and what their contact information is. Company-level data can be used by sales teams to determine which accounts to target, whereas contact-level data can be used to create highly targeted marketing campaigns. With Google banning third party cookies, many intent data providers (particularly those who offer second-party data, will no longer be able to offer their data. One way to use intent data is in paid ad campaigns, and specifically for the creation of custom audiences. Another way is to trigger targeted email marketing drip campaigns or sales outreach sequences. Regardless of how you're using the data, the key is to have a way to unify all of that information and clean it up so it can be used correctly in your campaigns. That is where having some sort of customer data platform (CDP) can be useful. Ed says that the best way to get started with intent data is to focus on existing customers (for upsells and cross sells) and then on opportunities already in the pipeline, to see if you can close them faster.  Resources from this episode: Visit the intentdata.io website Email Ed at ed@intentdata.io Listen to the podcast to learn more about contact-level buyer intent data and how you can begin to use it now to get better marketing and sales results. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host, Kathleen Booth, and this week my guest is Ed Marsh who is the chief revenue officer of intentdata.io. Welcome, Ed. Ed Marsh (Guest): Thank you very much, Kathleen. Great to be back with you. Kathleen: You’re one of the very, very few people who has been on this podcast twice. Ed: Well, it's a pleasure and an honor. Kathleen: It's less than five. I don't know the exact number, but it's definitely less than five. It's a small and exclusive club. Ed: As successful as your podcast has been, you're north of 100 episodes now, right? Kathleen: Oh yeah, it's like ... I think I'm around 130+ episodes. Ed: That's really neat. Kathleen: I have surprised myself. Yeah, it's great. I feel like now I'm one of those people who's competitive enough with my own self that now I can't stop. Ed: Both ... Kathleen: It's great. No, I'm excited to have to back, and you are back here really representing a completely different company, intentdata.io, which I don't think existed. Either that or it was like the kernel of a company when we first spoke, the first time I interviewed you. Ed: Right. About Ed Marsh and Intentdata.io Kathleen: Let's start with kind of a re-introduction to my audience. For those who either didn't hear you the first time around or heard you the first time around but aren't familiar with what you're working on now, could you talk a little bit about who you are, what you do, and what intentdata.io is? Ed: Sure, absolutely. We know each other, obviously, from the HubSpot community, the Inbound community, and have been kind of colleagues as agencies in that world for a number of years. In the context that we originally spoke, I was really working in that agency role but not as an agency consulting for middle market industrial manufacturers. But of course in the context of all of this inbound marketing work, inbound has evolved. It's not a binary world where outbound is evil like they used to say. No, the marketing takes all of these pieces. It takes inbound, it takes outbound, it takes paid, it takes great sales enablement, it takes all this stuff rolled together. And one of the pieces that I began to roll into it several years ago was intent data, and it was very immature at the time. It's evolved quite a bit, but it's really through the realization that marketing needs to be approached holistically for most businesses in this hyper-competitive, hyper-content saturated world that we're in, every company needs every tool, and they need to use it really effectively and intelligently both strategically and tactically. So against that background, I began working with a classmate of mine, actually from our mutual alma mater from Johns Hopkins that had worked on substantially developing and improving an algorithm for a very different approach to intent data than much of what was out there. Through that work I then began selling it and experimenting with it, and it's been substantially refined over the last several years. That algorithm is at the core of the intentdata.io business, and we've also incorporated some other elements like platform CDP in order to help companies fully exploit their full data stack and other stuff. That's kind of how I got to where I am today and why we're talking in this role. What is buyer intent data? Kathleen: That's so cool. I suspect that while most listeners of the podcast are pretty advanced, intent data's still a pretty new topic. I don't want to assume anything, and therefore can you just start by two to three sentences, I know this is going to be tough, can you explain what intent data is? Not necessarily what you guys do but what intent data is. Ed: Sure. So what's really interesting about intent data is that most companies already have it and they don't realize it. Because there's this new term that we've put on it. Intent data is the collection of signals that indicate that somebody may be in market ready to buy your product or service. So that could be visiting with you at an event or a trade show. It could be agreeing to have a meeting with you. In the common lexicon or parlance, it often is online activities like engaging with content, engaging with a competitor, social follows, and stuff like that. How intentdata.io is different Kathleen: Great. And there are a whole host of companies that have sprung up really in the last, I would say, two years that are calling themselves intent data companies. You mentioned that your algorithm and your approach is a little bit different. Can you explain what you mean by that? Ed: Sure. There's a broad spectrum of companies that say intent data, some of which are really static databases. Some are visitor identification. So if an unknown visitor comes to your site, you can use reverse IP lookup to figure out what the company is. Some are selling account level data that's sourced through different means including DSP or bid stream data from programmatic advertising. Some through publishing co-ops. There's first party data which is what companies have themselves that you collect through HubSpot. Second party data is like TechTarget sell which is based on their own publishing platform. And third party data, which is collected, supposedly or theoretically, everywhere else on the internet, although it's often from a small collection of sites. Kathleen: Now, I have a lot of questions. So in your case, what makes intentdata.io special, different, unique? Ed: So intentdata.io intent data is contact level intent data which is quite unique. There's a lot of companies out there that sell account level data. In other words, we can't tell you who the person is. We just can tell you there's been a bunch of people from IBM that are taking such-and-such a kind of action. There are companies that take account level data and then append to it their best guess of who the contacts might be based on who you tell them you'd love to talk to. You know, if you want to sell to CMOs and they see somebody that meets your ideal customer profile from a firmographic perspective taking action, then guess what? They're going to append the CMO's name, and you're going to get all excited, and you're going to think, "This is exactly what I want." What we do is we actually tell you who the person was that was taking action, and we give you their contact details, and we give you contextual information around the action they took. So not just engagement with some kind of an opaque topic, the taxonomy of which is completely mysterious, but rather we say, "They took action with an article online that had, at its core, this key term that we know is important to you." And because of that, then you can gauge where people are in the buying journey, the problem they're trying to solve, the outcome they're trying to achieve that competitors are talking to. You pair that with the information embedded in the job title like seniority and function with the firmographic details, and suddenly you have this really rich understanding of what's going on for the individual. And then of course when there's multiple people from the same company for the account and for that 10.2 person buying team that challenger talks about. Kathleen: Yeah, you're hitting on something that I think is really interesting. Because I started really looking at intent data probably a year and a half ago, and that's the kind of cool thing about the podcast is I get to talk to a lot of different people, I learn about a lot of different vendors, and specifically marketing technology vendors. Now I'm in a role as VP of marketing at Attila Security where I'm looking at, "What should my tech stack be?" And I've done this in a couple of different places now, looked at, reviewed intent data vendors. And I would say my perception, coming at this as an outsider, is that the big names that you hear most often are the ones that supply the account level data, as you described. I'm not going to name names, but that's basically what it is. Company x, lots of activity, they're looking at things. But you don't really know who in company x it is, and they market it as an account based marketing tool. So you're already doing account based marketing, you're already targeting companies. We are going to tell you which companies are showing the most interest. Which I can see the value of, but I'm actually really interested in this contact level stuff. Because yes, I think ABM has a lot of value, and it's something that I'm going to be working on, but I just can't help but think nothing beats knowing who the exact person is. You know, because at the end of the day that's the person who's either going to champion you or make the decision to buy. So, it's interesting to me that more companies haven't gone contact level data, and I'm curious if you can comment onto why that is. Why most intent data providers don't offer content-level buyer intent data Ed: Yeah, so there's a bunch of different reasons. Some of the big name companies started out unable to deliver contact level data and explained that as a technical impossibility or an illegality. And so there's some perception in the market that that's the case, neither of which are correct. A lot of the large name data is now sold just as an embed in other software, like with ABM software and/or with a contact database. And so it's just really easy for somebody to pay an extra 30 or 40 or 60 grand a year and get the data that just kind of flows. Of course- Kathleen: It's a lot of money, too, like, some of those add ons that you're talking about. Ed: Right. I think the other issue with intent data, of course if we have contact level intent data, it's easy to look, just on a pivot table for instance, at how many contacts from the same company are taking action. So you still get the account level insight, but it's a twofer. Not only are you getting that, but you're also getting the contact level insight. I think that one of the places that some companies have struggled with it is to just say, "Okay, I want to take this list of contacts, and I want to start blasting emails at them using, you know, SalesLoft or Outreach sequences”. And that's not all that effective. The companies that are really effective with it are the ones that take a more thoughtful approach whether it's in marketing, in sales, or both. So when you look at account level data, the reason that often succeeds with a sales team is because the sales team says, "Wow, there's something happening. I got to figure it out," and they start working contacts until they figure out where it is. And then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Whether they created the project through their diligence or uncovered it, nevertheless it's associated with intent data. On the other hand, marketing departments can take that contact level intent data, create custom audiences with it, for instance, and then do really remarkably focused and tailored paid ads to very specific audiences, again drawing on all of the contextual detail of stage and buying, journey, problem to be solved, etc. with a really tight sort of a messaging matrix. So to answer your question, from a marketing perspective, contact level data can mean more work. It's not as easy as just having Triblio tell you, "Okay, focus on these accounts." I mean, it takes additional work, particularly if you're going to use it for other use cases like event marketing in addition to demand gen. Market research is a great application for it. So you know, I think part of its awareness. Part of it is the initial perception that there was some impediment to using it, and part of it is the fact that there's more work to make it effective. How will Google's ban of third party cookies impact intent data? Kathleen: Now, I'm going to ask what might be a dumb question, but I've been reading in the news lately about how Google is going to ban and/or phase out the ability for people to use third party cookies. And I'm still trying to wrap my head around what that means. But it seems to me, this is where it might be a dumb question, that it's going to affect some of these intent data providers, particularly the ones that are looking at leveraging data coming in through ad platforms. Is that correct? Ed: Yeah, I think it's not a dumb question at all, and it's very perceptive of you. That's precisely correct. If you look at one of the very common methods of collection of intent data, it's based on programmatic advertising platforms. It's bid stream data, it's collected through a DSP, and what's interest is that- Kathleen: What's a DSP? Ed: Honestly, I don't even know what the acronym stands for. I'm going to embarrass myself. Kathleen: No, I mean I have no idea either. I was like, "Oh my god, am I just the only one who doesn't know?" Ed: What's interesting is that many of these providers have actually, going to set up a DSP without the intention of brokering and placing ads. But so they have the insight into what's happening into the market. Kathleen: Interesting. Ed: Who has space available, what kinds of topics, and who wants to put ads onto those pages. So it gives them some insight they've been able to build their intent data collection on, but that's predicated, to a large extent, on third party cookies, which of course Apple and Firefox did away with a while ago, but Google has announced a couple weeks ago they'll do on Chrome as well. Kathleen: Ah oh, by the way, I'm going to confess I did just Google DSP. It's a demand side platform. Ed: There you go. Kathleen: "Buyers of digital advertising use to manage multiple ad exchange and data exchange accounts." I had to look that one up, so you learn something new every day. Ed: Perfect. There are some alternative methods that companies in that space use. They try to call it fingerprinting and some other things, but they're just not effective. And so you're absolutely right. Although the sunset deadline I think is two years off, there are, in this crazy intent industry, there are companies demanding three year contracts right now including some that are selling DSPs. So how'd you like to be a company that signed a three year contact for that about a month ago? Kathleen: Yeah, and your provider's going to basically become obsolete, or they're going to have to figure out a different way to do it. So okay. Well, thank you for clarifying that. I didn't want to take us on too much of a tangent, but it's been on my mind. Understanding third party cookies is ... it's complicated. Ed: It is, for sure. Kathleen: So I probably need to do a whole separate episode just on that so that people can understand it, including myself. But in the meantime, so we're talking about contact level intent data, which in your case is not going to be affected if I understand correctly by Google's ban of third party cookies. Ed: That's correct. How are marketers using content-level buyer intent data? Kathleen: So now I'd like to shift gears and really talk about, "What does this look like in action?" Like, how are marketers using this information to improve their inbound marketing results? Do you have some examples you can talk us through? Ed: Sure, absolutely. I think that there's really three phases. One is building a full data stack. The second is doing proper analysis and segmentation, and then the third is doing orchestration. And if you look at kind of the maturity of the market right now, there's very few that are at the orchestration stage. There's not all that many that are doing the analysis and segmentation correctly, just because the limits of the existing martech stack that they have. But let's kind of, if you're up for it, let's work through those three kind of quickly. Kathleen: Let's do it. Ed: Chunk each one out. All right, so first you've got to have ... I shouldn't say it that way. It is beneficial, and as the process matures more companies will have a full data stack. So that means first party data, not just what you're observing of known users on your site, you know people that convert forms and come back and look at the pages, but anonymous first party data, who from companies is visiting your site that you don't know who they are, and then first party data from elsewhere in the organization. For instance, information on in-app usage and transactional information. There's all kinds of first party data that companies just partition. They think, "Well, that's customer service," or, "That's operations," or whatever but really is important to understand that entire customer life cycle. I think it's also important for companies to think of intent data across the customer life cycle, not just as a prospecting and demand gen sort of tool. Because it's got use cases across. But also in that full data stack, you might want some second party data from a couple publishers that are particularly strong in your industry that own those relationships. They have opted in readers and subscribers that have some really important insights into what's happening on their platform in that space and that subject domain that's important to you. And then third party data. And typically a couple sources of third party data. A great example in the martech space is G2 Crowd which doesn't give you a lot of signal but certainly gives you some important signal. You mesh that with something like our intentdata.io data, and now you've got a really interesting perspective. Those then, you've got to roll them up, properly unify them, cleanse them, and then you start to enrich it. And you enrich perhaps the technographic information or firmographic information. Or you understand about parent companies, and child companies, and how all of that's fitting together, you do some validation: validate email addresses, validate physical addresses because there's more marketing being done B to B with direct mail again, now. So all of this stuff has to kind of be rolled up into a very accurate, single customer view. That's one of the places that current marketing technology tends to fall a little bit short. Although there's great synchronization in many cases, there's not a lot of great unification of the data, and so that becomes a barrier sometimes for companies. They've got a great stack with Salesforce and Marketo and Drift and all these important pieces that fit together, but they're just not quite able to get it all rolled up into one very accurate, properly enriched, properly unified view. So then that sometimes is a barrier to the second step which is the analysis and segmentation. So think about it, for instance, if you had ... You talk a lot about ABM so you probably know Kerry Cunningham from Sirius and now Forrester that talks about second lead disease. You know, Kerry makes the point that we all get really excited about the first lead from a new logo, and that's great. The second lead from that same logo comes in, and people say, "Oh, that's cool. That's interesting, but we already have one. We're already working it." His point is that second one is the one that ought to get people excited because now you know that there's something more going on. It's not just some person, a crackpot, doing research on their own, but there's some sort of organizational activity. Kathleen: Right. There's water cooler talk happening at that company. Ed: Exactly. So let's extend that. Let's say that you have one or two people that convert on your site, known people in your first party data. Let's say that one of them has a demo, you know gets the freemium version of it and uses a lot of it, and one of them gets the freemium version and doesn't use it much. Let's say that there's two or three people from the same company that hit your site a number of times but don't identify themselves. So you know there's additional activity in the company. Now, let's say in third party data you see some of those same people plus other members that you know would be part of that buying team, in other words the right roles and functions are in place so you know there's a project, and you see them engaging with competitors, engaging with industry news. You can see where each of them is in the buying journey. And so now you've got a really interesting understanding of what's happening across that whole company. You've kind of validated the fact there is a project. You understand the roles that you see engaged. You understand the roles that aren't engaged or that you don't see and what your sales people need to focus, etc. But if you think about it, if you try to do that in a lot of the marketing automation software, you can't do it. I mean, even stepping from the contact level to the account level in many cases is a little bit tricky. It's not really a relational database the way you need it to be with most of the marketing automation platforms in order to do that sort of thing. There's two pieces. One is the technology piece, and the other is kind of the intellectual rigor and curiosity that's necessary to go through and say, "Let's build scenarios that really would tell us it's likely, it's sure," however you want to chunk them — MQL, SQL, whatever the case may be, and that's that analysis and segmentation then that gets really, really interesting and where companies, I think, in general are not yet hitting that point. They're kind of taking the list and saying, "Let's see who's on our target account list, and let's follow up with them," as opposed to using that list as a way to inform the target account vessel. Then the third piece, once you've done that, if you've got it all properly segmented, including micro segmentation so that the messaging is appropriate for the function, the seniority, the stage in the buying journey, competitors they've talked to, pages they've been on your site, all of that kind of stuff. Then you want to orchestrate, and you want to pull in your entire martech stack. So you want to automatically launch sequences from Outreach if that's what you're doing. You want to automatically add people to the right custom audience for a social advertising. You want to automatically add people to the right segment and address so when they come, they have exactly the right customized chatbot experience when they come. And you want all this stuff to happen automatically and at scale. And then further, you also want the automation to push the dots close enough together for the sales team. You want to suggest to the BDR, "Here's what we've observed. Here's what we infer from that. Therefore here's the template we think you should use and the enablement content we think you should use." You want to let the sales person or the AE know if they're in the midst of an opportunity and you see engagement with a competitor, then you want to make sure that they're clear not only that it happened but give them some context of the role and whether that person is also part of their deal or a new person. Just help them understand how to react to it. Because there's so much information flowing at people, it's really important to give them that context so they can seize it and action it. So I've been rambling, but I think those are kind of the three key areas to fully put intent data to work. Who is having success using intent data? Kathleen: It's incredibly clear to me that this holds amazing potential for marketers from so many different standpoints, and you covered a lot of them. You know, in terms of ad targeting, in terms of key account selection, helping your sales team, your BDR, your SDR, etc. do their job better, but it also sounds really complicated. So is there anybody out there that you've seen in the wild who's really doing this well? Like, who's really using this information well and getting results with it? Ed: There are some companies that are doing it, and it's places where they've had one person that kind of really seized it, applied creative energy to it, saw the opportunity, and grew with it. I understand absolutely your point about it sounding complicated. On the other hand, if we were to talk about doing digital marketing really well, that's really complicated too. And so there's always layers. I mean, you can start easy and then gradually progress into it as the organizational maturity and resources satisfy that. Kathleen: Yeah. Have you seen any success stories like where somebody's really been able to point to intent data and say, "That was the thing that helped me double my results or land that key customer"? Ed: Yeah, so we're not at liberty to discuss any of our client data and success stories because of nondisclosures. There's a lady named Amanda Bone who spoke at the B2B Marketing Exchange in Boston actually in conjunction with TechTarget talking about what they've done with a very robust intent data program, and I think the story that she told really illustrates the way you have to move into it progressively, you have to be very clear that you've got these cascading goals that you want to achieve. You're not going to try to do everything immediately, but also she understood the importance of having some platform that would help to integrate the data from different sources so that it wasn't just, you know, I got to look here, and then look there, and then look there, and hope that I remember it but rather pulled it together into some sort of a single view that made it actionable both for marketing and for sales. Unifying your intent data for use in marketing campaigns Kathleen: And what kinds of platforms do that? Ed: A couple of the intent data companies have very limited platforms that they may integrate anonymous first party data. In other words put some sort of an IP address lookup tool on your site in conjunction with third party data and provide a roll up of that, but the right answer I believe, and the direction that we're headed with clients, is to use a full blown CDP, to have the full capability of unification and the full capability of orchestration. Getting started with contact-level buyer intent data Kathleen: And so if you were somebody listening and you're thinking, "This sounds really cool. I would love to dip my toe in the water," but they're maybe intimidated by the full blown picture of, "Here's what it takes to really knock it out of the park," how would you suggest a marketer get started with this? What are some smaller things they could do to maybe have some initial wins and demonstrate success to, of course, as every marketer needs to think about like get that organizational buy in. Ed: Sure, absolutely. One of the really cool things about intent data is if marketers use it well, they can foster the alignment that seems so elusive between departments. So I look for quick wins with your partners on the success team, and that means feeding them signal from current customers and providing some training so that they understand how to interpret that signal. But if you see a current customer that's taking action with competitors or researching stuff, it's also a good upsell cross sell opportunity. So turn reduction, upsell, cross sell. So you can win with a success team pretty easily that way. With the sales team, I would discourage you from trying to start pushing them a bunch of new leads. I would focus on pending opportunities and target accounts and push them that signal. Now, you're going to have to provide a little bit more coaching and training in that case. And so you might want to phase it in gradually because nothing would be worse than a clumsy salesperson calling up and saying, "I thought you said you were going to buy from us. Why are you talking to the competitor?" That's not the way to use the data. So you want to make sure you train to avoid that. In terms of the marketing function itself, two easy places to start. If you're running pay ads, then develop some parallel paid ad programs with custom audiences, very tailored messaging. That's a relatively easy lift if you already have a paid ads program in place. If you're not doing any paid ads then that's going to feel like a project. So that's a judgment call. The second is to monitor events. If you're in an industry where a competitor of yours sponsors an event, what a fabulous opportunity to understand who the people are engaging with that event and target them with outbound sales. If you have industry wide events then do the same sort of a thing, but it's not specifically for targeting customers. It's obviously to create a base of leads for paid ads, for salespeople outreach, and maybe even in some cases if you're going to have a salesperson at an event and you're not investing a ton of money in exhibiting there. Use that to help them schedule appointments before they go. So those are a couple easy marketing use cases as well as a couple easy ways to incorporate it with sales, and success, and build alignment and buy in. Kathleen: Yeah, it's interesting that you mentioned events because I've thought about that. Even if you are exhibiting, if you're going to spend the money to have a booth at an event, most events these days don't give out their attendee lists. Ed: Right. Kathleen: And so, you know, marketers are left kind of scrambling with, "Well, how are we going to drive people to the booth?" Because you can send out a big blast, but you don't know that the people getting it are actually planning on attending, but if you can use intent data to narrow down your marketings to people who are going to be going to the event, then you can use a combination of advertising. You could ... there's all kinds of things you can do to really get in front of them before that event. Ed: Absolutely. For sure. And that investment is huge. That's where a lot of companies' marketing investment is going, but there's applications for the intent data before the event, during, and after. And of course there's also applications for event organizers for companies th at are organizing their own event and then opening it up to kind of parallel players. That intent data gives you ability as an event organizer to monetize for your other exhibitors. Because you can then say, "Hey, look. You're in such a such a space. We will, as part of the event package if you buy this add on, we will provide informational people that we see engaging that we believe are going to be attending the event that are particularly interested in what you're doing." So there's additional value as an organizer to monetize when you're exhibiting. Is buyer intent data GDPR compliant? Kathleen: Now, I'm sure that there are some marketers who are listening, and one of the questions that they'll have is, "What implications does GDPR have for all of this?" Because we're talking about contact level data, both data that you might be harvesting as the marketer using intent data, but you also just mentioned like event organizers sharing that data with others. So can you just talk about that for a moment? Ed: Show me two attorneys that will give you the same answer about any GDPR topic. I mean, we can certainly talk about it. There is no definitive answer. Every company has to have its own philosophy. I can tell you that we have clients in the EU that run our data the way we normally provide it. We also have clients in the EU and in the US that request that we mask certain fields in the data. So they get the job title, for instance, from which they can discern a lot of information, but they don't get the name and email address, and they still get most of the value out of it. So those are things that each company has to decide. The bottom line, we believe based on our understanding, is the data is entirely GDPR compliant as it. And because of how we harvest, what we're doing is we're watching people take action publicly online. So it's very much akin if you saw somebody comment on a blog post, on an article on Forbes or on a conversation on LinkedIn and you're a salesperson in the EU, there's nothing that prohibits you from figuring out who that person is, and reaching out, and contacting them saying, "It looks to me like this is of interest to you." So I mean, that's the closest analogy to commonly accepted sales practice that describes the data and why it's acceptable. Kathleen: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. You're right, it's a total gray area, but I appreciate you trying to clarify that. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: So shifting gears, I have two questions I ask all of my guests. You've been down this road before, but we're going to do it again because some time has passed. So we'll see if your answers have changed. Who do you think, either company or individual, is really kind of setting the example for what it means to do great inbound marketing these days? Ed: And I can guarantee you my answer isn't changed because I don't remember what my answers were. So I would say to that, a company called Mosquito Squad. I don't know if you've ever heard of them. Kathleen: Oh, yeah. Ed: Where I live in New England, the mosquitoes are horrible in the summer, and I get tired of ... Basically, you can't go outside for part of the year. So I got really fed up in hunting around, and they popped up, kind of typical inbound playbook, but then they have so fully integrated a helpful, and informative, and consultative approach throughout the process that made it easy to understand why to use them or what was involved and we ought to select them. Then it made it really easy to understand once we did what the process was going to be. Then they're really good about letting you know, "Okay, we're going to be there in 20 minutes. Okay, we're done. Here's what we did. Here's the invoice." I mean, it's so well integrated that not only did it make it easy to find them and learn about the service, but it makes working with them really easy too. Kathleen: Yeah, you're right about those mosquitoes in New England because I grew up in New Hampshire, and my mother used to go out to do yard work, and she literally would wear a hat that had a net that came down and like tucked into her shirt. It'd be like 90 degrees, and she'd be in long sleeves and long pants, and the pants would be tucked into her socks. It was just crazy. Ed: Right. Kathleen: So second question, getting off the mosquito topic, things change so quickly. This is a great example of that. Intent data, DSPs, most marketers really have trouble keeping up with all of it. So how do you personally keep up with everything that's changing in the world of digital marketing? Ed: Well, what I do specifically is not focus on inbound and digital marketing. I try to watch business more broadly. With general business resources, about trends in the economy, I mean there's certainly some kind of advertising and marketing related blogs that I follow and newsletters that I get from Ad Age through some others. I use a lot of Google Alerts around very specific kinds of terms because that way I'm not limited in hearing from the sources that I know about, but I'm discovering new sources as information becomes, and different perspectives become, available. I think like most people, this is a pitch for yours, podcasts are a great way to just kind of parachute in, get some ideas, see where there's an interesting episode, listen to it. You can do it while you're doing other things. So those are a great tool. Then the other thing that I do is follow a couple people, not so much because I'm so excited about the ideas they talk about but because I really love watching the way they create content and practice their craft. So I learn from seeing how folks balance all the media, and produce a lot of content, and build social following, and I just appreciate the way they do it whether or not I agree with the message that they're espousing. Kathleen: Can you name some names? Ed: Well, having said that I may not agree with the message they're espousing I got to be careful, but I mean there's some prominent marketers in the Boston area that have very large followings, that have a loudly proclaimed opinion about a lot of different things, that I think sometimes it's a little bit superficial or vapid, but they do create a lot of great content across a lot of channels. Kathleen: All right. With that caveat, come on I'm going to keep plugging. Who you got? Who you got? Ed: I think Dave Gerhardt is really interesting to watch. Kathleen: Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, you agree or disagree with anything he says, it's you can't disagree with the fact that he has successfully built a tremendous audience. Ed: Right. Kathleen: There's no two ways about it. Ed: Right. Kathleen: He actually gets mentioned a lot as a response to that first question I asked you. Yeah. Cool. Well, that's all interesting, and any particular podcasts that you are really a fan of? Ed: More general business ones. I love Business Wars. I like listening to The Knowledge Project from Shane Parrish. I like listening to some of the same ones that other people talk about, Joe Rogan where you get interesting perspectives from people of in depth interviews, history things. You know, Bonsai and all kinds of stuff. There's a lot of great podcasts out there. Kathleen: Yeah. I always love hearing what other people are listening to because there are so many out there, and I wish I had 48 hours in every day to listen to podcasts. It's a great way to learn. Ed: Like the numbers, if you compare the number of blogs to the number of podcasts, I don't remember what the numbers are, but there's like 3% the number of podcasts. So people that say that podcasting is already over the hill, I don't think that's the case. Kathleen: No. Well, it better not be. Because I'm on episode 130+ and I plan to keep going, so. Ed: You've got many more to go. Perfect. How to connect with Ed Kathleen: But then again, maybe that makes me an OG. I have no idea. This has been fun, Ed. I appreciate it, and if somebody is listening and they want to reach out to you and ask a question about intent data, or they want to learn more about intentdata.io, what's the best way for them to do that? Ed: They can email me at ed@intentdata.io, or they can go to the website intentdata.io. You know what to do next... Kathleen: Awesome. All right, I'll put those links in the show notes. And if you are listening and you have not yet taken a moment and gone to Apple Podcasts and left the podcast a review, I'm going to ask you to do that today. It's how we get found by new people. We're 130+ episodes in as we talked about, and I would really appreciate it. So if you're a regular listener in particular, take a minute and leave a review, and if you know somebody else who's doing kick ass inbound marketing work, tweet me @workmommywork because I'm always looking for new inbound marketers to interview. Kathleen: That's it for this week. Thank you so much, Ed. This has been a lot of fun having you back for a second time. Ed: Well thank you very much, Kathleen. I enjoyed it as well.

Listen to Part 1Listen to Part 2Listen to Part 3Listen to Part 4FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Out of the Depths Day 3 of 4 Guest:                        Ed Harrell From the Series:       Survival in the South Pacific ________________________________________________________________  Bob:                Sixty years ago this week, Ed Harrell was one of a few hundred men floating in the Pacific following the sinking of the USS Indianapolis.  In the four days that he was afloat, Ed saw some of his fellow sailors drift away from the group to be eaten by sharks.  Some who tried to swim toward an imaginary shore who never came back.  For Ed, the memories are vivid. Ed:                  I can see it today, and I think maybe I'd like to look at it and say that the Lord reminds me, even today, of those incidents, and as He reminds me of those, then they help to strengthen my faith and my resolve to live a life for Him today. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, August 3rd.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  Where did Ed Harrell's hope come from when it appeared all reason for hope was gone?  Stay with us.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.  You know, we've heard a story this week, Dennis, about a ship under attack.  And then we've heard about the ongoing horror and terror of living in the middle of the ocean, bundled up with your buddies, hooked with your lifejackets to one another as the sharks encircle you in the waters and wondering, "Does anyone even know we're out here or will we die at sea?"  No food, no fresh water except for a thundercloud that comes by and gives you a little bit of a rain shower.  You hear a story like this, and you wonder where does the will to survive in the midst of that come from?  I think of myself and think, "When would I just lay my head back and say, "Okay, I'm ready to die.  I'd rather do that than keep living like this." Dennis:          Yes, in fact, there's a story that Ed Harrell, who joins us again on FamilyLife Today.  Ed, welcome back to the broadcast. Ed:                  Thank you. Dennis:          There's a story you tell, Ed, of a Marine buddy who was ready to do the very thing Bob was talking about.  He was ready to quit, and you kind of – the picture I had from reading your book was you kind of grabbed him by the life jacket and looked him in the eyes, and you gave him a reason to believe. Ed:                  I pretty much gave him an ultimatum, really, in that he had tried to convince me that he was going to commit suicide.  He'd gone into the water head first and all of that oil in his eyes and then, you know, you can imagine – you take your hand, and you try to rub that oil out, but the more you rub your eye, you're rubbing salt in, and you're kind of taking that salt that's in the water, you're grinding your eyeballs with that.  And then the sun then, you know, beaming off of that water, then through the daytime.  By the second day, Spooner was determined that he was going to commit suicide, and he mentioned that two or three times.                         Anyway, I recall that I just got ahold of Spooner, and I turned him to me, and I kind of looked him squarely in the eye, and I said, "Spooner, there's only two of we Marines out here, and whenever a sailor is gone, there's still going to be two Marines, and you're going to be one of them with me," and I kind of turned him to me, and I fashioned – hooked his lifejacket then onto mine, and I swam with him then through that night, and then – it was sometime then the third morning that he wanted me to release him, and he made a vow to me that he would fight for life as long as there was breath in him because of him being able to survive as long as he had through that night, and I released him, then, the next day. Bob:                You and some 300 of your shipmates survived in the waters in the Pacific from the time that your boat was attacked just after midnight on the 30th of July in 1945 when the Indianapolis went under in about 15 minutes.  You survived for a period of, what was it, four days, five days? Ed:                  It was four-and-a-half days, yes. Bob:                And you survived that, as you've already shared with us this week, there was – was it just a single rain shower that passed over that gave you a little bit of water? Ed:                  Right, that's all the rain that we had the whole time I was out there, that's right. Bob:                So you're in salt water, you had a few tablespoons of fresh water in a four-and-a-half day period – any food? Ed:                  Well, let's come to the next day.  The third day, when there were 17 of us, and we had literally had a prayer meeting.  I mean, nearly everybody prayed. Bob:                You'd started with 80, and now you're down to 17. Ed:                  Right.   Dennis:          The sharks had picked off that many? Ed:                  That's right – well, sharks and – you mentioned somebody giving up – you know, I saw any number of boys that maybe at one minute you'd think, "Well, they're still alive," and just a little bit later you'd see that they just all of a sudden – seemingly, they just allowed their head to drop into the water, and they didn't have the energy to raise up, and they didn't care.  I recall that third day that we had had a prayer meeting, and everyone nearly was praying, and some would ask that you would pray for them, you know, they had – some had some children back home that they had never seen, and so on, and they were desperate to make it.  And, you know, "If you make it, and I don't make it, will you go by and see my family" and – "but don't tell them the gruesome things that are happening."                         Anyway, we'd had a prayer meeting, and we got through with a prayer meeting there on that third day, and then we came upon the swell, and we looked off to a distance, and we could see that there looked like a little makeshift of a raft that was coming into our group.  And after a period of time, we yelled at them, and they back at us, and it wasn't long until they made it into our group.  There were five sailors, and they had a makeshift of a raft consisting of, like, two 40-millimeter ammunition cans and three crates, like, a wooden slatted potato crate or an orange crate.  And as they came into our group, I recognized that there were lifejackets that they had taken off of boys that had already expired, and they had squeezed those out the best that they could, because a life – a kapok jacket will last, maybe, 48 hours, but we've already long passed that.                         So when they came in our group, they said that they were swimming to the Philippines; that if we could get close enough to the Philippines that maybe someone would see us.  And, at that time, we were nearly convinced that no word had gotten out, and yet 50 years later we found out that it did.  But, anyway, they wanted to know if anyone wanted to join them – swim to the Philippines, pushing that little raft. Bob:                That was hundreds of miles away, right? Ed:                  Probably 500 miles.  We didn't know that.  So I looked at my buddy, Spooner, and I said, "Spooner, I'm going to go.  I'm going to join them," and he said, "Harrell, if you go, I'm going to go," and so here are two Marines and five sailors began to say goodbye to our 15 other sailors, and we're going to swim to the Philippines, we thought.  So here we start. Dennis:          Was there anything said by the guys you left?  Did they say, "That's foolish to do that? Ed:                  They did.  They thought it was foolish.  They said the sharks will get you, and, well, you know, they've already gotten the bigger part of us, and there was really no – seemingly, no advantage to just stay and somewhat hope against hope and do what we can. Dennis:          So you swam out past the perimeter where those sharks had been circling that group of boys? Ed:                  We left our group and, after an hour or two, then, swimming, actually, I recall that after we had gone a distance we could see the sun setting in the west, and we thought, "Well, we'll be able to see the moon, we'll be able to see the Southern Cross, we'll be able to see the sun now as it sets, and we can tell that we're going to the Philippines, and the Philippines are big enough that we're bound to get in close enough that someone will see us."                         Well, after we had gone a good distance, we came upon a swell, and I could look off into at a distance, and I saw some debris out at the starboard side out maybe a couple of hundred yards or so, and a 100 yards ahead of us, and I called it to the attention of the others.  And at first we thought, "Well, it's one of our buddies out there," but then as we got closer, we could tell that it was debris of some kind, not one of ours, and so, you know, you pray for food.  What's the possibility, you know, could there be food out there, and so we prayed.  And I know I said, "I tell you what, if you'll keep going straight, I'm going to swim out and get that.  If it's just a crate, then we'll bring it in and fasten it onto our others here, but let's hope and pray that it could be food."                         Well, they thought I was foolish again, because the sharks maybe would get a straggler out there, but, really, I felt a real compelling force that says, "Go for it.  Go and see what it might be."  And I know, as I swam and got closer and closer to that crate, I'm praying for food, I'm praying for water, anything, you know, and as I got close enough that I could see those potatoes in that crate.  Kind of in desperation, I didn't pause to thank the Lord for what I'm about to eat but, in desperation, I'm making my way to those potatoes, and I reached in to get that first potato.  Kind of in the agony of defeat, all that rotten potato began to squeeze through my fingers, and as I kind of squeezed that in despair then, all of a sudden, it was solid potato on the inside.  You know, that was some food that I needed, some starch, and some water in that.                         Then I began to peel some of them, then, and fill my dungaree pockets full, and then I began to make my way back, then, to my buddies, with still a lot of potatoes in the crate.  We had a feast.  Oftentimes, I talk to young people, I say, you know, we had a picnic and no ants to bother us. Dennis:          You had sharks, though. Ed:                  We had sharks, we had sharks. Dennis:          You describe in your book that on more than one occasion, the sharks would be circling, and you would look up, and there would be a dorsal fin headed straight toward you. Ed:                  Right.  I know, many times, I had a fin coming straight toward me.  I knew that I was looking into eternity the next second, and yet as he got to me, he just went under, and I felt the dorsal fin as it hit me, and then him to go by.  And maybe then – momentarily then – another one would come through and take a buddy next to you, and yet the Lord, you know, spared me, and, you know, you have to be so mindful of all that the Lord does for you through your life and especially on occasions like that. Bob:                Did you ever lose hope?  Day 4 – the fourth night you've been through, did you ever think, "We're not going to make it.  We're going to die out here." Ed:                  Oh, I'm sure I thought that many times.  I wondered how much longer can a body really endure.  I lost about 27 pounds there in those four days, and, you know, how much more can you endure? Dennis:          Hold it – 27 pounds.  How do you lose 27 pounds in four days? Ed:                  I don't know.  There's others that say that they lost 30 or 40 pounds.  But, you know, dehydration does that to you and then, of course, you might think that we aren't swimming all the time, but basically we are swimming or fighting to be able to stay erect and to not allow the water to slosh over on us and get us strangled and cause us to drink the water.  So you're fighting the situation all the time and especially in the daytime, you know, the swells and all. Bob:                You're trying to stay on top of the swells, keep your head up above the water. Ed:                  That's right. Dennis:          Ed, I listened to your ordeal, and you describe in your book how, at this point, it was Wednesday evening.  You'd been in the water 66 hours.  You had to be near death, and your spirit had to be, as Bob was talking about, losing hope.  And yet, as you dawned on the fourth day, all this group of men that you started out with, you're down to one man, right? Ed:                  At the end of the fourth day, right. Dennis:          How did that happen?   Ed:                  Well, I think it would be fair if I back up just a little bit and say that the night before, when we had the raft, and there were five sailors, two Marines, as it got dark that night, we couldn't go; we couldn't see the Southern Cross, we couldn't see the moon, so along about midnight that night, I know we were just hanging onto the raft, didn't know which way to go, and then we hear voices.                           Now, there's times when I think there's some that heard voices, but we were actually hearing some boys, and we knew it had to be ours, and so we began to respond to them – holler out to them and they to us, and so sometime that night, then, there was a Navy lieutenant and I don't know how many as they came into our group, they kind of came in straggling one at a time, so to speak, and as they came in, I think there were maybe five boys, and Lieutenant McKissock, Charles McKissock from Texas, anyway, he convinced us that he was, likewise, swimming to the Philippines.  He said if we can get close enough then maybe someone will see us.  Then we tried to tell him that we were trying to go there with the raft, and at first he convinced us that the raft would be a deterrent, that it would slow us down, but we said, "Yeah, but we've got a spare tire," as we put it.  We've got spare life jackets on the top.                         And the next thing, maybe, that happened right immediately was that there was a certain Marine that had a pocketful of Irish potatoes that began to take the potatoes out of his pocket and share those with McKissock and the others, and then I don't know what happened after that.  I really don't know what happened before morning.  The only thing that I know is that next morning I'm not with Spooner, not with my buddy, Spooner.  I'm not with the raft; I'm not with the boys that I was with.  I'm with Navy Lieutenant McKissock and one other sailor. And now my life jacket will not hold my head out of the water, and I'm having to constantly swim, trying to keep my head above the water, and sometimes in that fourth day that's one of the times that I wondered if I wasn't gone, there, that fourth day, no doubt it got still.  I'm just exhausted and got still or something or the other and, all of a sudden, something hit me, and I just knew it was a shark.  I fell out of the kapok jacket, fell into the water, and, in desperation, the only hope that I had, I guess, was to get that life jacket back down under me, and I was struggling to get that back down under me, knowing that at any time that a shark is going to attack me.  Bu then, as I finally got back into that life jacket, I'm sitting in it.  Then there was just millions on little fish then, about 8 or 10 inches long, that began to come all around me and kind of nudge against me, and the moment I saw them, I knew that they were my friends.  I knew that if they were there, the sharks weren't around me, and I did try to catch a few with my hands to have one to eat, but I was not successful.  Anyway, that was the closer part of the end of that fourth day before rescue finally came that afternoon. Dennis:          Ed, as I've listened to you take us to one dramatic scene after another, I've stared into your face, and I've watched the emotion come and go, much like the swells in the ocean, and I'm amazed here, 60 years later, you're still very emotionally tethered to the experience that you had there.  You mentioned after you had been rescued that you couldn't talk about it for a long time?  Why was that? Ed:                  I don't know that I can answer why.  I found out that I relived it each time – if I try to get into any detail or anything – I can see it today.  I mean, there is no problem of seeing what all was happening, but I try to think above that and think of the positive rather than to look at it from the standpoint that hope was gone and nothing but despair.  And then to see my buddies go as they were going. But I recall that after I was home two years, Dad's closest friend, which was a friend of the family, and one Sunday afternoon he insisted, I guess, somewhat, he began to question me and, out of respect, I think, for him, as a friend, and I started telling it, and I talked maybe for a couple of hours.  And I know when I got through my dad broke down, and he said, "Well, he's been home for two years now, and this is the first I've really known of really what happened."                         But it was the best cathartic that I could have ever experienced, really, because there it kind of set in motion, not only through the years how I've wanted to give credit to the Lord for His providence and His mercy and grace to me in my life, but I wanted to tell others somewhat of the story.  So for the past several years, I've been in, like, 14 different states now, telling, and just kind of reliving. Dennis:          Well, you're in all 50 states right now.  You're telling a lot of people the story.  Psalm 139, verses 7 through 10, I think, have a special power about them because of the scene that you have set for us here.  "Where can I go from Thy Spirit, or where can I flee from Thy presence?  If I ascend to heaven, Thou art there.  If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, Thou art there.  If I take the wings of the dawn, if I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, even there Thy hand will lead me, and Thy right hand will lay hold of me."                         It goes on to talk about darkness overwhelming me.  The thing that – or the person who leads us in the midst of the darkness, in the midst of our chaos, our challenges, our crisis that we face, He is the King of kings, the Lord of lords, the sovereign ruler of the universe who knows the number of hairs on our head, and He cares about us, and He loves us, and He loved you.  He loved you and brought you through one of the most amazing stories I've ever heard. Bob:                You know, I can't help but reflect again on the book that our friend, Chip Ingram, has written that looks at a number of the Psalms of David and reminds us that God is with us in the midst of any affliction, and the book is called "I Am With You Always."  It's a book that we've got in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and I don't know what kind of affliction our listeners are going through, but that reminder, again, that God is with us, that He is for us, that He has not abandoned us.  There are times in life when we have to be reminded of that, and Chip's book does a great job of doing that.                           Again, it's in our FamilyLife Resource Center along with the book that you've written, Ed, which tells the story of the sinking of the Indianapolis and of your survival – four days in the Pacific.  The book is called "Out of the Depths," and we have both books in our FamilyLife Resource Center.  In fact, this week when our listeners order both books together, we will send at no additional cost the two CDs that have our conversation this week with Ed Harrell and, in fact the CDs have more of the story than we've been able to include on the broadcast because of time constraints.  It's something that the whole family can listen to as you travel this summer, or you can use it for family devotions.                         Go to our website, FamilyLife.com.  When you get to the home page, down at the bottom of the screen there's a button that says "Go."  You click on that button, it will take you right to page where you get more information about the resources we've been talking about.  You can order online, if you'd like.  Again, the website is FamilyLife.com or call 1-800-FLTODAY.  We've got folks who are standing by who can help you with more information about any of these resources, or they can take your order over the phone and get the resources sent to you.  Again, the toll-free number is 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.                           We also want to ask you when you get in touch with us, if you're able to help with a donation this month, you need to know that FamilyLife Today is a listener-supported program, and it's donations to the ministry that keep us on the air in this city and in cities all across the country.  You also need to know that we are committed to the idea that you ought to be giving to your local church as your first priority.  So we hope that if you do get in contact with us to make a donation, you're not, in any way, taking money away from your local church.                         But as you are able to help with the financial support of this ministry in the month of August, we want to send you a thank you gift.  Back, a couple of months ago, we sat down with Shaunti Feldhahn, who is the author of a book called "For Women Only."  We had a great conversation with her about things women need to know about their husbands that many women just aren't aware of.  Shaunti had done research on the subject, and many of you got in touch with us after those interviews and requested the CDs, and we thought during the month of August we would make those CDs available to anyone who wants to make a donation of any amount to the ministry of FamilyLife Today.                          You can donate online at FamilyLife.com or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY to make a donation.  You'll need to request the CDs when you make your donation.  If you're calling, just let our team know that you want the CDs for women, and they'll send those to you.  Or you can request the CDs online.  When you get to the keycode box as you're making your donation, just type in the two letters "CD," and we'll send out the interview to you.  And, again, it's our way of saying thanks for your ongoing support of FamilyLife Today.  We appreciate you standing with us financially.                         Well, tomorrow Ed Harrell is going to be back with us to finish the story.  We're going to hear how you were spotted in the 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Sponsors: KendoUI Sentry use the code "devchat" for $100 credit Clubhouse Panel: Charles Max Wood Special Guests: Ed Thomson In this episode, the Charles speaks with Ed Thomson who is a Program Manager at Azure through Microsoft, Developer, and Open Source Maintainer. Ed and Chuck discuss in full detail about Azure DevOps! Check out today’s episode to hear its new features and other exciting news! Show Topics: 0:59 – Live at Microsoft Ignite 1:03 – Ed: Hi! I am a Program Manager at Azure. 1:28 – Rewind 2 episodes to hear more about Azure DevOps! 1:51 – Ed: One of the moves from Pipelines to DevOps – they could still adopt Pipelines. Now that they are separate services – it’s great. 2:38 – Chuck talks about features he does and doesn’t use. 2:54 – Ed. 3:00 – Chuck: Repos and Pipelines. I am going to dive right in. Let’s talk about Repos. Microsoft just acquired GitHub. 3:18 – Ed: Technically we have not officially acquired GitHub. 3:34 – Chuck: It’s not done. It’s the end of September now. 3:55 – Ed: They will remain the same thing for a while. GitHub is the home for open source. Repos – we use it in Microsoft. Repositories are huge. There are 4,000 engineers working in these repositories. Everyone works in his or her own little area, and you have to work together. You have to do all this engineering to get there. We bit a tool and it basically if you run clone... Ed continues to talk about this topic. He is talking about One Drive and these repositories. 6:28 – Ed: We aren’t going to be mixing and matching. I used to work through GitHub. It’s exciting to see those people work close to me. 6:54 – Chuck. 6:59 – Ed: It has come a long way. 7:07 – Chuck: Beyond the FSF are we talking about other features or? 7:21 – Ed: We have unique features. We have branch policies. You can require that people do pole request. You have to use pole request and your CI has to pass and things like that. I think there is a lot of richness in our auditing. We have enterprise focus. At its core it still is Git. We can all interoperate. 8:17 – Chuck. 8:37 – Ed: You just can’t set it up with Apache. You have to figure it out. 8:51 – Chuck: The method of pushing and pulling. 9:06 – Chuck: You can try DevOps for free up to 5 users and unlimited private repos. People are interested in this because GitHub makes you pay for that. 9:38 – Ed and Chuck continue to talk. 9:50 – Ed: Pipelines is the most interesting thing we are working on. We have revamped the entire experience. Build and release. It’s easy to get started. We have a visual designer. Super helpful – super straightforward. Releases once your code is built – get it out to production say for example Azure. It’s the important thing to get your code out there. 10:55 – Chuck: How can someone start with this? 11:00 – Ed: Depends on where your repository is. It will look at your code. “Oh, I know what that is, I know how to build that!” Maybe everyone isn’t doing everything with JavaScript. If you are using DotNet then it will know. 12:05 – Chuck: What if I am using both a backend and a frontend? 12:11 – Ed: One repository? That’s when you will have to do a little hand packing on the... There are different opportunities there. If you have a bash script that does it for you. If not, then you can orchestrate it. Reduce the time it takes. If it’s an open source project; there’s 2 – what are you going to do with the other 8? You’d be surprised – people try to sneak that in there. 13:30 – Chuck: It seems like continuous integration isn’t a whole lot complicated. 13:39 – Ed: I am a simple guy that’s how I do it. You can do advanced stuff, though. The Cake Build system – they are doing some crazy things. We have got Windows, Lennox, and others. Are you building for Raspberries Pies, then okay, do this... It’s not just running a script. 15:00 – Chuck: People do get pretty complicated if they want. It can get complicated. Who knows? 15:26 – Chuck:  How much work do you have to do to set-up a Pipeline like that? 15:37 – Ed answers the question in detail. 16:03 – Chuck asks a question. 16:12 – Ed: Now this is where it gets contentious. If one fails... Our default task out of the box... 16:56 – Chuck: If you want 2 steps you can (like me who is crazy). 17:05 – Ed: Yes, I want to see if it failed. 17:17 – Chuck: Dude, writing code is hard. Once you have it built and tested – continuous deployment. 17:33 – Ed: It’s very easy. It’s super straightforward, it doesn’t have to be Azure (although I hope it is!). Ed continues this conversation. 18:43 – Chuck: And it just pulls it? 18:49 – Ed: Don’t poke holes into your firewall. We do give you a lot of flexibility 19:04 – Chuck: VPN credentials? 19:10 – Ed: Just run the... 19:25 – Chuck comments. 19:36 – Ed: ...Take that Zip... 20:02 – Ed: Once the planets are finely aligned then...it will just pull from it. 20:25 – Chuck: I host my stuff on Digital Ocean. 20:46 – Ed: It’s been awhile since I played with... 20:55 – Chuck. 20:59 – Ed and Chuck go back and forth with different situations and hypothetical situations. 21:10 – Ed: What is Phoenix? 21:20 – Chuck explains it. 21:25 – Ed: Here is what we probably don’t have is a lot of ERLANG support. 22:41 – Advertisement. 23:31 – Chuck: Let’s just say it’s a possibility. We took the strip down node and... 23:49 – Ed: I think it’s going to happen. 23:55 – Ed: Exactly. 24:02 – Chuck: Testing against Azure services. So, it’s one thing to run on my machine but it’s another thing when other things connect nicely with an Azure set-up. Does it connect natively once it’s in the Azure cloud? 24:35 – Ed: It should, but there are so many services, so I don’t want to say that everything is identical. We will say yes with an asterisk. 25:07 – Chuck: With continuous deployment... 25:41 – Ed: As an example: I have a CD Pipeline for my website. Every time I merge into master... Ed continues this hypothetical situation with full details. Check it out! 27:03 – Chuck: You probably can do just about anything – deploy by Tweet! 27:15 – Ed: You can stop the deployment if people on Twitter start complaining. 27:40 – Chuck: That is awesome! IF it is something you care about – and if it’s worth the time – then why not? If you don’t have to think about it then great. I have mentioned this before: Am I solving interesting problems? What projects do I want to work on? What kinds of contributions do I really want to contribute to open source? That’s the thing – if you have all these tools that are set-up then your process, how do you work on what, and remove the pain points then you can just write code so people can use! That’s the power of this – because it catches the bug before I have to catch it – then that saves me time. 30:08 – Ed: That’s the dream of computers is that the computers are supposed to make OUR lives easier. IF we can do that and catch those bugs before you catch it then you are saving time. Finding bugs as quickly as possible it avoids downtime and messy deployments. 31:03 – Chuck: Then you can use time for coding style and other things. I can take mental shortcuts. 31:37 – Ed: The other thing you can do is avoiding security problems. If a static code analysis tool catches an integer overflow then... 32:30 – Chuck adds his comments. Chuck: You can set your policy to block it or ignore it. Then you are running these tools to run security. There are third-party tools that do security analysis on your code. Do you integrate with those? 33:00 – Ed: Yep. My favorite is WhiteSource. It knows all of the open source and third-party tools. It can scan your code and... 34:05 – Chuck: It works with a lot of languages. 34:14 – Ed. 34:25 – Chuck: A lot of JavaScript developers are getting into mobile development, like Ionic, and others. You have all these systems out there for different stages for writing for mobile. Android, windows Phone, Blackberry... 35:04 – Ed: Let’s throw out Blackberry builds. We will ignore it. Mac OS dies a fine job. That’s why we have all of those. 35:29 – Chuck: But I want to run my tests, too! 35:36 – Ed: I really like to use App Center. It is ultimately incredible to see all the tests you can run. 36:29 – Chuck: The deployment is different, though, right? 36:40 – Ed: I have a friend who clicks a button in... Azure DevOps. 37:00 – Chuck: I like to remind people that this isn’t a new product. 37:15 – Ed: Yes, Azure DevOps. 37:24 – Chuck: Any new features that are coming out? 37:27 – Ed: We took a little break, but... 37:47 – Ed: We will pick back up once Ignite is over. We have a timeline on our website when we expect to launch some new features, and some are secret, so keep checking out the website. 39:07 – Chuck: What is the interplay between Azure DevOps and Visual Studio Code? Because they have plugins for freaking everything. I am sure there is something there that... 39:30 – Ed: I am a VI guy and I’m like 90% sure there is something there. You are an eMac’s guy? The way I think about it is through Git right out of the box. Yes, I think there are better things out there for integration. I know we have a lot of great things in Visual Code, because I worked with it. 40:45 – Chuck: Yes, people can look for extensions and see what the capabilities are. Chuck talks about code editor and tools.  41:28 – Ed: ... we have been pulling that out as quickly as possible. We do have IE extensions, I am sure there is something for VS Code – but it’s not where I want to spend my time. 42:02 – Chuck: Yes, sure. 42:07 – Ed: But everyone is different – they won’t work the way that I work. So there’s that. 42:30 – Ed: That Chuck. 42:36 – Chuck: Where do people get news? 42:42 – Ed: Go to here! 42:54 – Chuck: Where do people find you? 43:00 – Ed: Twitter! 43:07 – Chuck: Let’s do Picks! 43:20 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! Links: GitHub Microsoft’s Azure Microsoft’s Pipeline Azure DevOps Erlang WhiteSource Chuck’s Twitter Ed Thomson’s Twitter Ed Thomson’s GitHub Ed Thomson’s Website Ed Thomson’s LinkedIn Picks: Ed Podcast - All Things Git

Sponsors: KendoUI Sentry use the code "devchat" for $100 credit Clubhouse Panel: Charles Max Wood Special Guests: Ed Thomson In this episode, the Charles speaks with Ed Thomson who is a Program Manager at Azure through Microsoft, Developer, and Open Source Maintainer. Ed and Chuck discuss in full detail about Azure DevOps! Check out today’s episode to hear its new features and other exciting news! Show Topics: 0:59 – Live at Microsoft Ignite 1:03 – Ed: Hi! I am a Program Manager at Azure. 1:28 – Rewind 2 episodes to hear more about Azure DevOps! 1:51 – Ed: One of the moves from Pipelines to DevOps – they could still adopt Pipelines. Now that they are separate services – it’s great. 2:38 – Chuck talks about features he does and doesn’t use. 2:54 – Ed. 3:00 – Chuck: Repos and Pipelines. I am going to dive right in. Let’s talk about Repos. Microsoft just acquired GitHub. 3:18 – Ed: Technically we have not officially acquired GitHub. 3:34 – Chuck: It’s not done. It’s the end of September now. 3:55 – Ed: They will remain the same thing for a while. GitHub is the home for open source. Repos – we use it in Microsoft. Repositories are huge. There are 4,000 engineers working in these repositories. Everyone works in his or her own little area, and you have to work together. You have to do all this engineering to get there. We bit a tool and it basically if you run clone... Ed continues to talk about this topic. He is talking about One Drive and these repositories. 6:28 – Ed: We aren’t going to be mixing and matching. I used to work through GitHub. It’s exciting to see those people work close to me. 6:54 – Chuck. 6:59 – Ed: It has come a long way. 7:07 – Chuck: Beyond the FSF are we talking about other features or? 7:21 – Ed: We have unique features. We have branch policies. You can require that people do pole request. You have to use pole request and your CI has to pass and things like that. I think there is a lot of richness in our auditing. We have enterprise focus. At its core it still is Git. We can all interoperate. 8:17 – Chuck. 8:37 – Ed: You just can’t set it up with Apache. You have to figure it out. 8:51 – Chuck: The method of pushing and pulling. 9:06 – Chuck: You can try DevOps for free up to 5 users and unlimited private repos. People are interested in this because GitHub makes you pay for that. 9:38 – Ed and Chuck continue to talk. 9:50 – Ed: Pipelines is the most interesting thing we are working on. We have revamped the entire experience. Build and release. It’s easy to get started. We have a visual designer. Super helpful – super straightforward. Releases once your code is built – get it out to production say for example Azure. It’s the important thing to get your code out there. 10:55 – Chuck: How can someone start with this? 11:00 – Ed: Depends on where your repository is. It will look at your code. “Oh, I know what that is, I know how to build that!” Maybe everyone isn’t doing everything with JavaScript. If you are using DotNet then it will know. 12:05 – Chuck: What if I am using both a backend and a frontend? 12:11 – Ed: One repository? That’s when you will have to do a little hand packing on the... There are different opportunities there. If you have a bash script that does it for you. If not, then you can orchestrate it. Reduce the time it takes. If it’s an open source project; there’s 2 – what are you going to do with the other 8? You’d be surprised – people try to sneak that in there. 13:30 – Chuck: It seems like continuous integration isn’t a whole lot complicated. 13:39 – Ed: I am a simple guy that’s how I do it. You can do advanced stuff, though. The Cake Build system – they are doing some crazy things. We have got Windows, Lennox, and others. Are you building for Raspberries Pies, then okay, do this... It’s not just running a script. 15:00 – Chuck: People do get pretty complicated if they want. It can get complicated. Who knows? 15:26 – Chuck:  How much work do you have to do to set-up a Pipeline like that? 15:37 – Ed answers the question in detail. 16:03 – Chuck asks a question. 16:12 – Ed: Now this is where it gets contentious. If one fails... Our default task out of the box... 16:56 – Chuck: If you want 2 steps you can (like me who is crazy). 17:05 – Ed: Yes, I want to see if it failed. 17:17 – Chuck: Dude, writing code is hard. Once you have it built and tested – continuous deployment. 17:33 – Ed: It’s very easy. It’s super straightforward, it doesn’t have to be Azure (although I hope it is!). Ed continues this conversation. 18:43 – Chuck: And it just pulls it? 18:49 – Ed: Don’t poke holes into your firewall. We do give you a lot of flexibility 19:04 – Chuck: VPN credentials? 19:10 – Ed: Just run the... 19:25 – Chuck comments. 19:36 – Ed: ...Take that Zip... 20:02 – Ed: Once the planets are finely aligned then...it will just pull from it. 20:25 – Chuck: I host my stuff on Digital Ocean. 20:46 – Ed: It’s been awhile since I played with... 20:55 – Chuck. 20:59 – Ed and Chuck go back and forth with different situations and hypothetical situations. 21:10 – Ed: What is Phoenix? 21:20 – Chuck explains it. 21:25 – Ed: Here is what we probably don’t have is a lot of ERLANG support. 22:41 – Advertisement. 23:31 – Chuck: Let’s just say it’s a possibility. We took the strip down node and... 23:49 – Ed: I think it’s going to happen. 23:55 – Ed: Exactly. 24:02 – Chuck: Testing against Azure services. So, it’s one thing to run on my machine but it’s another thing when other things connect nicely with an Azure set-up. Does it connect natively once it’s in the Azure cloud? 24:35 – Ed: It should, but there are so many services, so I don’t want to say that everything is identical. We will say yes with an asterisk. 25:07 – Chuck: With continuous deployment... 25:41 – Ed: As an example: I have a CD Pipeline for my website. Every time I merge into master... Ed continues this hypothetical situation with full details. Check it out! 27:03 – Chuck: You probably can do just about anything – deploy by Tweet! 27:15 – Ed: You can stop the deployment if people on Twitter start complaining. 27:40 – Chuck: That is awesome! IF it is something you care about – and if it’s worth the time – then why not? If you don’t have to think about it then great. I have mentioned this before: Am I solving interesting problems? What projects do I want to work on? What kinds of contributions do I really want to contribute to open source? That’s the thing – if you have all these tools that are set-up then your process, how do you work on what, and remove the pain points then you can just write code so people can use! That’s the power of this – because it catches the bug before I have to catch it – then that saves me time. 30:08 – Ed: That’s the dream of computers is that the computers are supposed to make OUR lives easier. IF we can do that and catch those bugs before you catch it then you are saving time. Finding bugs as quickly as possible it avoids downtime and messy deployments. 31:03 – Chuck: Then you can use time for coding style and other things. I can take mental shortcuts. 31:37 – Ed: The other thing you can do is avoiding security problems. If a static code analysis tool catches an integer overflow then... 32:30 – Chuck adds his comments. Chuck: You can set your policy to block it or ignore it. Then you are running these tools to run security. There are third-party tools that do security analysis on your code. Do you integrate with those? 33:00 – Ed: Yep. My favorite is WhiteSource. It knows all of the open source and third-party tools. It can scan your code and... 34:05 – Chuck: It works with a lot of languages. 34:14 – Ed. 34:25 – Chuck: A lot of JavaScript developers are getting into mobile development, like Ionic, and others. You have all these systems out there for different stages for writing for mobile. Android, windows Phone, Blackberry... 35:04 – Ed: Let’s throw out Blackberry builds. We will ignore it. Mac OS dies a fine job. That’s why we have all of those. 35:29 – Chuck: But I want to run my tests, too! 35:36 – Ed: I really like to use App Center. It is ultimately incredible to see all the tests you can run. 36:29 – Chuck: The deployment is different, though, right? 36:40 – Ed: I have a friend who clicks a button in... Azure DevOps. 37:00 – Chuck: I like to remind people that this isn’t a new product. 37:15 – Ed: Yes, Azure DevOps. 37:24 – Chuck: Any new features that are coming out? 37:27 – Ed: We took a little break, but... 37:47 – Ed: We will pick back up once Ignite is over. We have a timeline on our website when we expect to launch some new features, and some are secret, so keep checking out the website. 39:07 – Chuck: What is the interplay between Azure DevOps and Visual Studio Code? Because they have plugins for freaking everything. I am sure there is something there that... 39:30 – Ed: I am a VI guy and I’m like 90% sure there is something there. You are an eMac’s guy? The way I think about it is through Git right out of the box. Yes, I think there are better things out there for integration. I know we have a lot of great things in Visual Code, because I worked with it. 40:45 – Chuck: Yes, people can look for extensions and see what the capabilities are. Chuck talks about code editor and tools.  41:28 – Ed: ... we have been pulling that out as quickly as possible. We do have IE extensions, I am sure there is something for VS Code – but it’s not where I want to spend my time. 42:02 – Chuck: Yes, sure. 42:07 – Ed: But everyone is different – they won’t work the way that I work. So there’s that. 42:30 – Ed: That Chuck. 42:36 – Chuck: Where do people get news? 42:42 – Ed: Go to here! 42:54 – Chuck: Where do people find you? 43:00 – Ed: Twitter! 43:07 – Chuck: Let’s do Picks! 43:20 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! Links: GitHub Microsoft’s Azure Microsoft’s Pipeline Azure DevOps Erlang WhiteSource Chuck’s Twitter Ed Thomson’s Twitter Ed Thomson’s GitHub Ed Thomson’s Website Ed Thomson’s LinkedIn Picks: Ed Podcast - All Things Git

Sponsors: KendoUI Sentry use the code "devchat" for $100 credit Clubhouse Panel: Charles Max Wood Special Guests: Ed Thomson In this episode, the Charles speaks with Ed Thomson who is a Program Manager at Azure through Microsoft, Developer, and Open Source Maintainer. Ed and Chuck discuss in full detail about Azure DevOps! Check out today’s episode to hear its new features and other exciting news! Show Topics: 0:59 – Live at Microsoft Ignite 1:03 – Ed: Hi! I am a Program Manager at Azure. 1:28 – Rewind 2 episodes to hear more about Azure DevOps! 1:51 – Ed: One of the moves from Pipelines to DevOps – they could still adopt Pipelines. Now that they are separate services – it’s great. 2:38 – Chuck talks about features he does and doesn’t use. 2:54 – Ed. 3:00 – Chuck: Repos and Pipelines. I am going to dive right in. Let’s talk about Repos. Microsoft just acquired GitHub. 3:18 – Ed: Technically we have not officially acquired GitHub. 3:34 – Chuck: It’s not done. It’s the end of September now. 3:55 – Ed: They will remain the same thing for a while. GitHub is the home for open source. Repos – we use it in Microsoft. Repositories are huge. There are 4,000 engineers working in these repositories. Everyone works in his or her own little area, and you have to work together. You have to do all this engineering to get there. We bit a tool and it basically if you run clone... Ed continues to talk about this topic. He is talking about One Drive and these repositories. 6:28 – Ed: We aren’t going to be mixing and matching. I used to work through GitHub. It’s exciting to see those people work close to me. 6:54 – Chuck. 6:59 – Ed: It has come a long way. 7:07 – Chuck: Beyond the FSF are we talking about other features or? 7:21 – Ed: We have unique features. We have branch policies. You can require that people do pole request. You have to use pole request and your CI has to pass and things like that. I think there is a lot of richness in our auditing. We have enterprise focus. At its core it still is Git. We can all interoperate. 8:17 – Chuck. 8:37 – Ed: You just can’t set it up with Apache. You have to figure it out. 8:51 – Chuck: The method of pushing and pulling. 9:06 – Chuck: You can try DevOps for free up to 5 users and unlimited private repos. People are interested in this because GitHub makes you pay for that. 9:38 – Ed and Chuck continue to talk. 9:50 – Ed: Pipelines is the most interesting thing we are working on. We have revamped the entire experience. Build and release. It’s easy to get started. We have a visual designer. Super helpful – super straightforward. Releases once your code is built – get it out to production say for example Azure. It’s the important thing to get your code out there. 10:55 – Chuck: How can someone start with this? 11:00 – Ed: Depends on where your repository is. It will look at your code. “Oh, I know what that is, I know how to build that!” Maybe everyone isn’t doing everything with JavaScript. If you are using DotNet then it will know. 12:05 – Chuck: What if I am using both a backend and a frontend? 12:11 – Ed: One repository? That’s when you will have to do a little hand packing on the... There are different opportunities there. If you have a bash script that does it for you. If not, then you can orchestrate it. Reduce the time it takes. If it’s an open source project; there’s 2 – what are you going to do with the other 8? You’d be surprised – people try to sneak that in there. 13:30 – Chuck: It seems like continuous integration isn’t a whole lot complicated. 13:39 – Ed: I am a simple guy that’s how I do it. You can do advanced stuff, though. The Cake Build system – they are doing some crazy things. We have got Windows, Lennox, and others. Are you building for Raspberries Pies, then okay, do this... It’s not just running a script. 15:00 – Chuck: People do get pretty complicated if they want. It can get complicated. Who knows? 15:26 – Chuck:  How much work do you have to do to set-up a Pipeline like that? 15:37 – Ed answers the question in detail. 16:03 – Chuck asks a question. 16:12 – Ed: Now this is where it gets contentious. If one fails... Our default task out of the box... 16:56 – Chuck: If you want 2 steps you can (like me who is crazy). 17:05 – Ed: Yes, I want to see if it failed. 17:17 – Chuck: Dude, writing code is hard. Once you have it built and tested – continuous deployment. 17:33 – Ed: It’s very easy. It’s super straightforward, it doesn’t have to be Azure (although I hope it is!). Ed continues this conversation. 18:43 – Chuck: And it just pulls it? 18:49 – Ed: Don’t poke holes into your firewall. We do give you a lot of flexibility 19:04 – Chuck: VPN credentials? 19:10 – Ed: Just run the... 19:25 – Chuck comments. 19:36 – Ed: ...Take that Zip... 20:02 – Ed: Once the planets are finely aligned then...it will just pull from it. 20:25 – Chuck: I host my stuff on Digital Ocean. 20:46 – Ed: It’s been awhile since I played with... 20:55 – Chuck. 20:59 – Ed and Chuck go back and forth with different situations and hypothetical situations. 21:10 – Ed: What is Phoenix? 21:20 – Chuck explains it. 21:25 – Ed: Here is what we probably don’t have is a lot of ERLANG support. 22:41 – Advertisement. 23:31 – Chuck: Let’s just say it’s a possibility. We took the strip down node and... 23:49 – Ed: I think it’s going to happen. 23:55 – Ed: Exactly. 24:02 – Chuck: Testing against Azure services. So, it’s one thing to run on my machine but it’s another thing when other things connect nicely with an Azure set-up. Does it connect natively once it’s in the Azure cloud? 24:35 – Ed: It should, but there are so many services, so I don’t want to say that everything is identical. We will say yes with an asterisk. 25:07 – Chuck: With continuous deployment... 25:41 – Ed: As an example: I have a CD Pipeline for my website. Every time I merge into master... Ed continues this hypothetical situation with full details. Check it out! 27:03 – Chuck: You probably can do just about anything – deploy by Tweet! 27:15 – Ed: You can stop the deployment if people on Twitter start complaining. 27:40 – Chuck: That is awesome! IF it is something you care about – and if it’s worth the time – then why not? If you don’t have to think about it then great. I have mentioned this before: Am I solving interesting problems? What projects do I want to work on? What kinds of contributions do I really want to contribute to open source? That’s the thing – if you have all these tools that are set-up then your process, how do you work on what, and remove the pain points then you can just write code so people can use! That’s the power of this – because it catches the bug before I have to catch it – then that saves me time. 30:08 – Ed: That’s the dream of computers is that the computers are supposed to make OUR lives easier. IF we can do that and catch those bugs before you catch it then you are saving time. Finding bugs as quickly as possible it avoids downtime and messy deployments. 31:03 – Chuck: Then you can use time for coding style and other things. I can take mental shortcuts. 31:37 – Ed: The other thing you can do is avoiding security problems. If a static code analysis tool catches an integer overflow then... 32:30 – Chuck adds his comments. Chuck: You can set your policy to block it or ignore it. Then you are running these tools to run security. There are third-party tools that do security analysis on your code. Do you integrate with those? 33:00 – Ed: Yep. My favorite is WhiteSource. It knows all of the open source and third-party tools. It can scan your code and... 34:05 – Chuck: It works with a lot of languages. 34:14 – Ed. 34:25 – Chuck: A lot of JavaScript developers are getting into mobile development, like Ionic, and others. You have all these systems out there for different stages for writing for mobile. Android, windows Phone, Blackberry... 35:04 – Ed: Let’s throw out Blackberry builds. We will ignore it. Mac OS dies a fine job. That’s why we have all of those. 35:29 – Chuck: But I want to run my tests, too! 35:36 – Ed: I really like to use App Center. It is ultimately incredible to see all the tests you can run. 36:29 – Chuck: The deployment is different, though, right? 36:40 – Ed: I have a friend who clicks a button in... Azure DevOps. 37:00 – Chuck: I like to remind people that this isn’t a new product. 37:15 – Ed: Yes, Azure DevOps. 37:24 – Chuck: Any new features that are coming out? 37:27 – Ed: We took a little break, but... 37:47 – Ed: We will pick back up once Ignite is over. We have a timeline on our website when we expect to launch some new features, and some are secret, so keep checking out the website. 39:07 – Chuck: What is the interplay between Azure DevOps and Visual Studio Code? Because they have plugins for freaking everything. I am sure there is something there that... 39:30 – Ed: I am a VI guy and I’m like 90% sure there is something there. You are an eMac’s guy? The way I think about it is through Git right out of the box. Yes, I think there are better things out there for integration. I know we have a lot of great things in Visual Code, because I worked with it. 40:45 – Chuck: Yes, people can look for extensions and see what the capabilities are. Chuck talks about code editor and tools.  41:28 – Ed: ... we have been pulling that out as quickly as possible. We do have IE extensions, I am sure there is something for VS Code – but it’s not where I want to spend my time. 42:02 – Chuck: Yes, sure. 42:07 – Ed: But everyone is different – they won’t work the way that I work. So there’s that. 42:30 – Ed: That Chuck. 42:36 – Chuck: Where do people get news? 42:42 – Ed: Go to here! 42:54 – Chuck: Where do people find you? 43:00 – Ed: Twitter! 43:07 – Chuck: Let’s do Picks! 43:20 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! Links: GitHub Microsoft’s Azure Microsoft’s Pipeline Azure DevOps Erlang WhiteSource Chuck’s Twitter Ed Thomson’s Twitter Ed Thomson’s GitHub Ed Thomson’s Website Ed Thomson’s LinkedIn Picks: Ed Podcast - All Things Git

Panel: Charles Max Wood Special Guests: Ed Thomson In this episode, the Charles speaks with Ed Thomson who is a Program Manager at Azure through Microsoft, Developer, and Open Source Maintainer. Ed and Chuck discuss in full detail about Azure DevOps! Check out today’s episode to hear its new features and other exciting news! Show Topics: 0:59 – Live at Microsoft Ignite 1:03 – Ed: Hi! I am a Program Manager at Azure. 1:28 – Rewind 2 episodes to hear more about Azure DevOps! 1:51 – Ed: One of the moves from Pipelines to DevOps – they could still adopt Pipelines. Now that they are separate services – it’s great. 2:38 – Chuck talks about features he does and doesn’t use. 2:54 – Ed. 3:00 – Chuck: Repos and Pipelines. I am going to dive right in. Let’s talk about Repos. Microsoft just acquired GitHub. 3:18 – Ed: Technically we have not officially acquired GitHub. 3:34 – Chuck: It’s not done. It’s the end of September now. 3:55 – Ed: They will remain the same thing for a while. GitHub is the home for open source. Repos – we use it in Microsoft. Repositories are huge. There are 4,000 engineers working in these repositories. Everyone works in his or her own little area, and you have to work together. You have to do all this engineering to get there. We bit a tool and it basically if you run clone... Ed continues to talk about this topic. He is talking about One Drive and these repositories. 6:28 – Ed: We aren’t going to be mixing and matching. I used to work through GitHub. It’s exciting to see those people work close to me. 6:54 – Chuck. 6:59 – Ed: It has come a long way. 7:07 – Chuck: Beyond the FSF are we talking about other features or? 7:21 – Ed: We have unique features. We have branch policies. You can require that people do pole request. You have to use pole request and your CI has to pass and things like that. I think there is a lot of richness in our auditing. We have enterprise focus. At its core it still is Git. We can all interoperate. 8:17 – Chuck. 8:37 – Ed: You just can’t set it up with Apache. You have to figure it out. 8:51 – Chuck: The method of pushing and pulling. 9:06 – Chuck: You can try DevOps for free up to 5 users and unlimited private repos. People are interested in this because GitHub makes you pay for that. 9:38 – Ed and Chuck continue to talk. 9:50 – Ed: Pipelines is the most interesting thing we are working on. We have revamped the entire experience. Build and release. It’s easy to get started. We have a visual designer. Super helpful – super straightforward. Releases once your code is built – get it out to production say for example Azure. It’s the important thing to get your code out there. 10:55 – Chuck: How can someone start with this? 11:00 – Ed: Depends on where your repository is. It will look at your code. “Oh, I know what that is, I know how to build that!” Maybe everyone isn’t doing everything with JavaScript. If you are using DotNet then it will know. 12:05 – Chuck: What if I am using both a backend and a frontend? 12:11 – Ed: One repository? That’s when you will have to do a little hand packing on the... There are different opportunities there. If you have a bash script that does it for you. If not, then you can orchestrate it. Reduce the time it takes. If it’s an open source project; there’s 2 – what are you going to do with the other 8? You’d be surprised – people try to sneak that in there. 13:30 – Chuck: It seems like continuous integration isn’t a whole lot complicated. 13:39 – Ed: I am a simple guy that’s how I do it. You can do advanced stuff, though. The Cake Build system – they are doing some crazy things. We have got Windows, Lennox, and others. Are you building for Raspberries Pies, then okay, do this... It’s not just running a script. 15:00 – Chuck: People do get pretty complicated if they want. It can get complicated. Who knows? 15:26 – Chuck:  How much work do you have to do to set-up a Pipeline like that? 15:37 – Ed answers the question in detail. 16:03 – Chuck asks a question. 16:12 – Ed: Now this is where it gets contentious. If one fails... Our default task out of the box... 16:56 – Chuck: If you want 2 steps you can (like me who is crazy). 17:05 – Ed: Yes, I want to see if it failed. 17:17 – Chuck: Dude, writing code is hard. Once you have it built and tested – continuous deployment. 17:33 – Ed: It’s very easy. It’s super straightforward, it doesn’t have to be Azure (although I hope it is!). Ed continues this conversation. 18:43 – Chuck: And it just pulls it? 18:49 – Ed: Don’t poke holes into your firewall. We do give you a lot of flexibility 19:04 – Chuck: VPN credentials? 19:10 – Ed: Just run the... 19:25 – Chuck comments. 19:36 – Ed: ...Take that Zip... 20:02 – Ed: Once the planets are finely aligned then...it will just pull from it. 20:25 – Chuck: I host my stuff on Digital Ocean. 20:46 – Ed: It’s been awhile since I played with... 20:55 – Chuck. 20:59 – Ed and Chuck go back and forth with different situations and hypothetical situations. 21:10 – Ed: What is Phoenix? 21:20 – Chuck explains it. 21:25 – Ed: Here is what we probably don’t have is a lot of ERLANG support. 22:41 – Advertisement. 23:31 – Chuck: Let’s just say it’s a possibility. We took the strip down node and... 23:49 – Ed: I think it’s going to happen. 23:55 – Ed: Exactly. 24:02 – Chuck: Testing against Azure services. So, it’s one thing to run on my machine but it’s another thing when other things connect nicely with an Azure set-up. Does it connect natively once it’s in the Azure cloud? 24:35 – Ed: It should, but there are so many services, so I don’t want to say that everything is identical. We will say yes with an asterisk. 25:07 – Chuck: With continuous deployment... 25:41 – Ed: As an example: I have a CD Pipeline for my website. Every time I merge into master... Ed continues this hypothetical situation with full details. Check it out! 27:03 – Chuck: You probably can do just about anything – deploy by Tweet! 27:15 – Ed: You can stop the deployment if people on Twitter start complaining. 27:40 – Chuck: That is awesome! IF it is something you care about – and if it’s worth the time – then why not? If you don’t have to think about it then great. I have mentioned this before: Am I solving interesting problems? What projects do I want to work on? What kinds of contributions do I really want to contribute to open source? That’s the thing – if you have all these tools that are set-up then your process, how do you work on what, and remove the pain points then you can just write code so people can use! That’s the power of this – because it catches the bug before I have to catch it – then that saves me time. 30:08 – Ed: That’s the dream of computers is that the computers are supposed to make OUR lives easier. IF we can do that and catch those bugs before you catch it then you are saving time. Finding bugs as quickly as possible it avoids downtime and messy deployments. 31:03 – Chuck: Then you can use time for coding style and other things. I can take mental shortcuts. 31:37 – Ed: The other thing you can do is avoiding security problems. If a static code analysis tool catches an integer overflow then... 32:30 – Chuck adds his comments. Chuck: You can set your policy to block it or ignore it. Then you are running these tools to run security. There are third-party tools that do security analysis on your code. Do you integrate with those? 33:00 – Ed: Yep. My favorite is WhiteSource. It knows all of the open source and third-party tools. It can scan your code and... 34:05 – Chuck: It works with a lot of languages. 34:14 – Ed. 34:25 – Chuck: A lot of JavaScript developers are getting into mobile development, like Ionic, and others. You have all these systems out there for different stages for writing for mobile. Android, windows Phone, Blackberry... 35:04 – Ed: Let’s throw out Blackberry builds. We will ignore it. Mac OS dies a fine job. That’s why we have all of those. 35:29 – Chuck: But I want to run my tests, too! 35:36 – Ed: I really like to use App Center. It is ultimately incredible to see all the tests you can run. 36:29 – Chuck: The deployment is different, though, right? 36:40 – Ed: I have a friend who clicks a button in... Azure DevOps. 37:00 – Chuck: I like to remind people that this isn’t a new product. 37:15 – Ed: Yes, Azure DevOps. 37:24 – Chuck: Any new features that are coming out? 37:27 – Ed: We took a little break, but... 37:47 – Ed: We will pick back up once Ignite is over. We have a timeline on our website when we expect to launch some new features, and some are secret, so keep checking out the website. 39:07 – Chuck: What is the interplay between Azure DevOps and Visual Studio Code? Because they have plugins for freaking everything. I am sure there is something there that... 39:30 – Ed: I am a VI guy and I’m like 90% sure there is something there. You are an eMac’s guy? The way I think about it is through Git right out of the box. Yes, I think there are better things out there for integration. I know we have a lot of great things in Visual Code, because I worked with it. 40:45 – Chuck: Yes, people can look for extensions and see what the capabilities are. Chuck talks about code editor and tools.  41:28 – Ed: ... we have been pulling that out as quickly as possible. We do have IE extensions, I am sure there is something for VS Code – but it’s not where I want to spend my time. 42:02 – Chuck: Yes, sure. 42:07 – Ed: But everyone is different – they won’t work the way that I work. So there’s that. 42:30 – Ed: That Chuck. 42:36 – Chuck: Where do people get news? 42:42 – Ed: Go to here! 42:54 – Chuck: Where do people find you? 43:00 – Ed: Twitter! 43:07 – Chuck: Let’s do Picks! 43:20 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! Links: GitHub Microsoft’s Azure Microsoft’s Pipeline Azure DevOps Erlang WhiteSource Chuck’s Twitter Ed Thomson’s Twitter Ed Thomson’s GitHub Ed Thomson’s Website Ed Thomson’s LinkedIn Sponsors: Angular Boot Camp Fresh Books Get a Coder Job Course Picks: Ed Podcast - All Things Git

Panel: Charles Max Wood Special Guests: Ed Thomson In this episode, the Charles speaks with Ed Thomson who is a Program Manager at Azure through Microsoft, Developer, and Open Source Maintainer. Ed and Chuck discuss in full detail about Azure DevOps! Check out today’s episode to hear its new features and other exciting news! Show Topics: 0:59 – Live at Microsoft Ignite 1:03 – Ed: Hi! I am a Program Manager at Azure. 1:28 – Rewind 2 episodes to hear more about Azure DevOps! 1:51 – Ed: One of the moves from Pipelines to DevOps – they could still adopt Pipelines. Now that they are separate services – it’s great. 2:38 – Chuck talks about features he does and doesn’t use. 2:54 – Ed. 3:00 – Chuck: Repos and Pipelines. I am going to dive right in. Let’s talk about Repos. Microsoft just acquired GitHub. 3:18 – Ed: Technically we have not officially acquired GitHub. 3:34 – Chuck: It’s not done. It’s the end of September now. 3:55 – Ed: They will remain the same thing for a while. GitHub is the home for open source. Repos – we use it in Microsoft. Repositories are huge. There are 4,000 engineers working in these repositories. Everyone works in his or her own little area, and you have to work together. You have to do all this engineering to get there. We bit a tool and it basically if you run clone... Ed continues to talk about this topic. He is talking about One Drive and these repositories. 6:28 – Ed: We aren’t going to be mixing and matching. I used to work through GitHub. It’s exciting to see those people work close to me. 6:54 – Chuck. 6:59 – Ed: It has come a long way. 7:07 – Chuck: Beyond the FSF are we talking about other features or? 7:21 – Ed: We have unique features. We have branch policies. You can require that people do pole request. You have to use pole request and your CI has to pass and things like that. I think there is a lot of richness in our auditing. We have enterprise focus. At its core it still is Git. We can all interoperate. 8:17 – Chuck. 8:37 – Ed: You just can’t set it up with Apache. You have to figure it out. 8:51 – Chuck: The method of pushing and pulling. 9:06 – Chuck: You can try DevOps for free up to 5 users and unlimited private repos. People are interested in this because GitHub makes you pay for that. 9:38 – Ed and Chuck continue to talk. 9:50 – Ed: Pipelines is the most interesting thing we are working on. We have revamped the entire experience. Build and release. It’s easy to get started. We have a visual designer. Super helpful – super straightforward. Releases once your code is built – get it out to production say for example Azure. It’s the important thing to get your code out there. 10:55 – Chuck: How can someone start with this? 11:00 – Ed: Depends on where your repository is. It will look at your code. “Oh, I know what that is, I know how to build that!” Maybe everyone isn’t doing everything with JavaScript. If you are using DotNet then it will know. 12:05 – Chuck: What if I am using both a backend and a frontend? 12:11 – Ed: One repository? That’s when you will have to do a little hand packing on the... There are different opportunities there. If you have a bash script that does it for you. If not, then you can orchestrate it. Reduce the time it takes. If it’s an open source project; there’s 2 – what are you going to do with the other 8? You’d be surprised – people try to sneak that in there. 13:30 – Chuck: It seems like continuous integration isn’t a whole lot complicated. 13:39 – Ed: I am a simple guy that’s how I do it. You can do advanced stuff, though. The Cake Build system – they are doing some crazy things. We have got Windows, Lennox, and others. Are you building for Raspberries Pies, then okay, do this... It’s not just running a script. 15:00 – Chuck: People do get pretty complicated if they want. It can get complicated. Who knows? 15:26 – Chuck:  How much work do you have to do to set-up a Pipeline like that? 15:37 – Ed answers the question in detail. 16:03 – Chuck asks a question. 16:12 – Ed: Now this is where it gets contentious. If one fails... Our default task out of the box... 16:56 – Chuck: If you want 2 steps you can (like me who is crazy). 17:05 – Ed: Yes, I want to see if it failed. 17:17 – Chuck: Dude, writing code is hard. Once you have it built and tested – continuous deployment. 17:33 – Ed: It’s very easy. It’s super straightforward, it doesn’t have to be Azure (although I hope it is!). Ed continues this conversation. 18:43 – Chuck: And it just pulls it? 18:49 – Ed: Don’t poke holes into your firewall. We do give you a lot of flexibility 19:04 – Chuck: VPN credentials? 19:10 – Ed: Just run the... 19:25 – Chuck comments. 19:36 – Ed: ...Take that Zip... 20:02 – Ed: Once the planets are finely aligned then...it will just pull from it. 20:25 – Chuck: I host my stuff on Digital Ocean. 20:46 – Ed: It’s been awhile since I played with... 20:55 – Chuck. 20:59 – Ed and Chuck go back and forth with different situations and hypothetical situations. 21:10 – Ed: What is Phoenix? 21:20 – Chuck explains it. 21:25 – Ed: Here is what we probably don’t have is a lot of ERLANG support. 22:41 – Advertisement. 23:31 – Chuck: Let’s just say it’s a possibility. We took the strip down node and... 23:49 – Ed: I think it’s going to happen. 23:55 – Ed: Exactly. 24:02 – Chuck: Testing against Azure services. So, it’s one thing to run on my machine but it’s another thing when other things connect nicely with an Azure set-up. Does it connect natively once it’s in the Azure cloud? 24:35 – Ed: It should, but there are so many services, so I don’t want to say that everything is identical. We will say yes with an asterisk. 25:07 – Chuck: With continuous deployment... 25:41 – Ed: As an example: I have a CD Pipeline for my website. Every time I merge into master... Ed continues this hypothetical situation with full details. Check it out! 27:03 – Chuck: You probably can do just about anything – deploy by Tweet! 27:15 – Ed: You can stop the deployment if people on Twitter start complaining. 27:40 – Chuck: That is awesome! IF it is something you care about – and if it’s worth the time – then why not? If you don’t have to think about it then great. I have mentioned this before: Am I solving interesting problems? What projects do I want to work on? What kinds of contributions do I really want to contribute to open source? That’s the thing – if you have all these tools that are set-up then your process, how do you work on what, and remove the pain points then you can just write code so people can use! That’s the power of this – because it catches the bug before I have to catch it – then that saves me time. 30:08 – Ed: That’s the dream of computers is that the computers are supposed to make OUR lives easier. IF we can do that and catch those bugs before you catch it then you are saving time. Finding bugs as quickly as possible it avoids downtime and messy deployments. 31:03 – Chuck: Then you can use time for coding style and other things. I can take mental shortcuts. 31:37 – Ed: The other thing you can do is avoiding security problems. If a static code analysis tool catches an integer overflow then... 32:30 – Chuck adds his comments. Chuck: You can set your policy to block it or ignore it. Then you are running these tools to run security. There are third-party tools that do security analysis on your code. Do you integrate with those? 33:00 – Ed: Yep. My favorite is WhiteSource. It knows all of the open source and third-party tools. It can scan your code and... 34:05 – Chuck: It works with a lot of languages. 34:14 – Ed. 34:25 – Chuck: A lot of JavaScript developers are getting into mobile development, like Ionic, and others. You have all these systems out there for different stages for writing for mobile. Android, windows Phone, Blackberry... 35:04 – Ed: Let’s throw out Blackberry builds. We will ignore it. Mac OS dies a fine job. That’s why we have all of those. 35:29 – Chuck: But I want to run my tests, too! 35:36 – Ed: I really like to use App Center. It is ultimately incredible to see all the tests you can run. 36:29 – Chuck: The deployment is different, though, right? 36:40 – Ed: I have a friend who clicks a button in... Azure DevOps. 37:00 – Chuck: I like to remind people that this isn’t a new product. 37:15 – Ed: Yes, Azure DevOps. 37:24 – Chuck: Any new features that are coming out? 37:27 – Ed: We took a little break, but... 37:47 – Ed: We will pick back up once Ignite is over. We have a timeline on our website when we expect to launch some new features, and some are secret, so keep checking out the website. 39:07 – Chuck: What is the interplay between Azure DevOps and Visual Studio Code? Because they have plugins for freaking everything. I am sure there is something there that... 39:30 – Ed: I am a VI guy and I’m like 90% sure there is something there. You are an eMac’s guy? The way I think about it is through Git right out of the box. Yes, I think there are better things out there for integration. I know we have a lot of great things in Visual Code, because I worked with it. 40:45 – Chuck: Yes, people can look for extensions and see what the capabilities are. Chuck talks about code editor and tools.  41:28 – Ed: ... we have been pulling that out as quickly as possible. We do have IE extensions, I am sure there is something for VS Code – but it’s not where I want to spend my time. 42:02 – Chuck: Yes, sure. 42:07 – Ed: But everyone is different – they won’t work the way that I work. So there’s that. 42:30 – Ed: That Chuck. 42:36 – Chuck: Where do people get news? 42:42 – Ed: Go to here! 42:54 – Chuck: Where do people find you? 43:00 – Ed: Twitter! 43:07 – Chuck: Let’s do Picks! 43:20 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! Links: GitHub Microsoft’s Azure Microsoft’s Pipeline Azure DevOps Erlang WhiteSource Chuck’s Twitter Ed Thomson’s Twitter Ed Thomson’s GitHub Ed Thomson’s Website Ed Thomson’s LinkedIn Sponsors: Angular Boot Camp Fresh Books Get a Coder Job Course Picks: Ed Podcast - All Things Git

Panel: Charles Max Wood Special Guests: Ed Thomson In this episode, the React Round Up Charles speaks with Ed Thomson who is a Program Manager at Azure through Microsoft, Developer, and Open Source Maintainer. Ed and Chuck discuss in full detail about Azure DevOps! Check out today’s episode to hear its new features and other exciting news! Show Topics: 0:59 – Live at Microsoft Ignite 1:03 – Ed: Hi! I am a Program Manager at Azure. 1:28 – Rewind 2 episodes to hear more about Azure DevOps! 1:51 – Ed: One of the moves from Pipelines to DevOps – they could still adopt Pipelines. Now that they are separate services – it’s great. 2:38 – Chuck talks about features he does and doesn’t use. 2:54 – Ed. 3:00 – Chuck: Repos and Pipelines. I am going to dive right in. Let’s talk about Repos. Microsoft just acquired GitHub. 3:18 – Ed: Technically we have not officially acquired GitHub. 3:34 – Chuck: It’s not done. It’s the end of September now. 3:55 – Ed: They will remain the same thing for a while. GitHub is the home for open source. Repos – we use it in Microsoft. Repositories are huge. There are 4,000 engineers working in these repositories. Everyone works in his or her own little area, and you have to work together. You have to do all this engineering to get there. We bit a tool and it basically if you run clone... Ed continues to talk about this topic. He is talking about One Drive and these repositories. 6:28 – Ed: We aren’t going to be mixing and matching. I used to work through GitHub. It’s exciting to see those people work close to me. 6:54 – Chuck. 6:59 – Ed: It has come a long way. 7:07 – Chuck: Beyond the FSF are we talking about other features or? 7:21 – Ed: We have unique features. We have branch policies. You can require that people do pole request. You have to use pole request and your CI has to pass and things like that. I think there is a lot of richness in our auditing. We have enterprise focus. At its core it still is Git. We can all interoperate. 8:17 – Chuck. 8:37 – Ed: You just can’t set it up with Apache. You have to figure it out. 8:51 – Chuck: The method of pushing and pulling. 9:06 – Chuck: You can try DevOps for free up to 5 users and unlimited private repos. People are interested in this because GitHub makes you pay for that. 9:38 – Ed and Chuck continue to talk. 9:50 – Ed: Pipelines is the most interesting thing we are working on. We have revamped the entire experience. Build and release. It’s easy to get started. We have a visual designer. Super helpful – super straightforward. Releases once your code is built – get it out to production say for example Azure. It’s the important thing to get your code out there. 10:55 – Chuck: How can someone start with this? 11:00 – Ed: Depends on where your repository is. It will look at your code. “Oh, I know what that is, I know how to build that!” Maybe everyone isn’t doing everything with JavaScript. If you are using DotNet then it will know. 12:05 – Chuck: What if I am using both a backend and a frontend? 12:11 – Ed: One repository? That’s when you will have to do a little hand packing on the... There are different opportunities there. If you have a bash script that does it for you. If not, then you can orchestrate it. Reduce the time it takes. If it’s an open source project; there’s 2 – what are you going to do with the other 8? You’d be surprised – people try to sneak that in there. 13:30 – Chuck: It seems like continuous integration isn’t a whole lot complicated. 13:39 – Ed: I am a simple guy that’s how I do it. You can do advanced stuff, though. The Cake Build system – they are doing some crazy things. We have got Windows, Lennox, and others. Are you building for Raspberries Pies, then okay, do this... It’s not just running a script. 15:00 – Chuck: People do get pretty complicated if they want. It can get complicated. Who knows? 15:26 – Chuck:  How much work do you have to do to set-up a Pipeline like that? 15:37 – Ed answers the question in detail. 16:03 – Chuck asks a question. 16:12 – Ed: Now this is where it gets contentious. If one fails... Our default task out of the box... 16:56 – Chuck: If you want 2 steps you can (like me who is crazy). 17:05 – Ed: Yes, I want to see if it failed. 17:17 – Chuck: Dude, writing code is hard. Once you have it built and tested – continuous deployment. 17:33 – Ed: It’s very easy. It’s super straightforward, it doesn’t have to be Azure (although I hope it is!). Ed continues this conversation. 18:43 – Chuck: And it just pulls it? 18:49 – Ed: Don’t poke holes into your firewall. We do give you a lot of flexibility 19:04 – Chuck: VPN credentials? 19:10 – Ed: Just run the... 19:25 – Chuck comments. 19:36 – Ed: ...Take that Zip... 20:02 – Ed: Once the planets are finely aligned then...it will just pull from it. 20:25 – Chuck: I host my stuff on Digital Ocean. 20:46 – Ed: It’s been awhile since I played with... 20:55 – Chuck. 20:59 – Ed and Chuck go back and forth with different situations and hypothetical situations. 21:10 – Ed: What is Phoenix? 21:20 – Chuck explains it. 21:25 – Ed: Here is what we probably don’t have is a lot of ERLANG support. 22:41 – Advertisement. 23:31 – Chuck: Let’s just say it’s a possibility. We took the strip down node and... 23:49 – Ed: I think it’s going to happen. 23:55 – Ed: Exactly. 24:02 – Chuck: Testing against Azure services. So, it’s one thing to run on my machine but it’s another thing when other things connect nicely with an Azure set-up. Does it connect natively once it’s in the Azure cloud? 24:35 – Ed: It should, but there are so many services, so I don’t want to say that everything is identical. We will say yes with an asterisk. 25:07 – Chuck: With continuous deployment... 25:41 – Ed: As an example: I have a CD Pipeline for my website. Every time I merge into master... Ed continues this hypothetical situation with full details. Check it out! 27:03 – Chuck: You probably can do just about anything – deploy by Tweet! 27:15 – Ed: You can stop the deployment if people on Twitter start complaining. 27:40 – Chuck: That is awesome! IF it is something you care about – and if it’s worth the time – then why not? If you don’t have to think about it then great. I have mentioned this before: Am I solving interesting problems? What projects do I want to work on? What kinds of contributions do I really want to contribute to open source? That’s the thing – if you have all these tools that are set-up then your process, how do you work on what, and remove the pain points then you can just write code so people can use! That’s the power of this – because it catches the bug before I have to catch it – then that saves me time. 30:08 – Ed: That’s the dream of computers is that the computers are supposed to make OUR lives easier. IF we can do that and catch those bugs before you catch it then you are saving time. Finding bugs as quickly as possible it avoids downtime and messy deployments. 31:03 – Chuck: Then you can use time for coding style and other things. I can take mental shortcuts. 31:37 – Ed: The other thing you can do is avoiding security problems. If a static code analysis tool catches an integer overflow then... 32:30 – Chuck adds his comments. Chuck: You can set your policy to block it or ignore it. Then you are running these tools to run security. There are third-party tools that do security analysis on your code. Do you integrate with those? 33:00 – Ed: Yep. My favorite is WhiteSource. It knows all of the open source and third-party tools. It can scan your code and... 34:05 – Chuck: It works with a lot of languages. 34:14 – Ed. 34:25 – Chuck: A lot of JavaScript developers are getting into mobile development, like Ionic, and others. You have all these systems out there for different stages for writing for mobile. Android, windows Phone, Blackberry... 35:04 – Ed: Let’s throw out Blackberry builds. We will ignore it. Mac OS dies a fine job. That’s why we have all of those. 35:29 – Chuck: But I want to run my tests, too! 35:36 – Ed: I really like to use App Center. It is ultimately incredible to see all the tests you can run. 36:29 – Chuck: The deployment is different, though, right? 36:40 – Ed: I have a friend who clicks a button in... Azure DevOps. 37:00 – Chuck: I like to remind people that this isn’t a new product. 37:15 – Ed: Yes, Azure DevOps. 37:24 – Chuck: Any new features that are coming out? 37:27 – Ed: We took a little break, but... 37:47 – Ed: We will pick back up once Ignite is over. We have a timeline on our website when we expect to launch some new features, and some are secret, so keep checking out the website. 39:07 – Chuck: What is the interplay between Azure DevOps and Visual Studio Code? Because they have plugins for freaking everything. I am sure there is something there that... 39:30 – Ed: I am a VI guy and I’m like 90% sure there is something there. You are an eMac’s guy? The way I think about it is through Git right out of the box. Yes, I think there are better things out there for integration. I know we have a lot of great things in Visual Code, because I worked with it. 40:45 – Chuck: Yes, people can look for extensions and see what the capabilities are. Chuck talks about code editor and tools.  41:28 – Ed: ... we have been pulling that out as quickly as possible. We do have IE extensions, I am sure there is something for VS Code – but it’s not where I want to spend my time. 42:02 – Chuck: Yes, sure. 42:07 – Ed: But everyone is different – they won’t work the way that I work. So there’s that. 42:30 – Ed: That Chuck. 42:36 – Chuck: Where do people get news? 42:42 – Ed: Go to here! 42:54 – Chuck: Where do people find you? 43:00 – Ed: Twitter! 43:07 – Chuck: Let’s do Picks! 43:20 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! Links: GitHub Microsoft’s Azure Microsoft’s Pipeline Azure DevOps Erlang WhiteSource Chuck’s Twitter Ed Thomson’s Twitter Ed Thomson’s GitHub Ed Thomson’s Website Ed Thomson’s LinkedIn Sponsors: Angular Boot Camp Fresh Books Get a Coder Job Course Picks: Ed Podcast - All Things Git

Panel: Charles Max Wood Special Guests: Ed Thomson In this episode, the React Round Up Charles speaks with Ed Thomson who is a Program Manager at Azure through Microsoft, Developer, and Open Source Maintainer. Ed and Chuck discuss in full detail about Azure DevOps! Check out today’s episode to hear its new features and other exciting news! Show Topics: 0:59 – Live at Microsoft Ignite 1:03 – Ed: Hi! I am a Program Manager at Azure. 1:28 – Rewind 2 episodes to hear more about Azure DevOps! 1:51 – Ed: One of the moves from Pipelines to DevOps – they could still adopt Pipelines. Now that they are separate services – it’s great. 2:38 – Chuck talks about features he does and doesn’t use. 2:54 – Ed. 3:00 – Chuck: Repos and Pipelines. I am going to dive right in. Let’s talk about Repos. Microsoft just acquired GitHub. 3:18 – Ed: Technically we have not officially acquired GitHub. 3:34 – Chuck: It’s not done. It’s the end of September now. 3:55 – Ed: They will remain the same thing for a while. GitHub is the home for open source. Repos – we use it in Microsoft. Repositories are huge. There are 4,000 engineers working in these repositories. Everyone works in his or her own little area, and you have to work together. You have to do all this engineering to get there. We bit a tool and it basically if you run clone... Ed continues to talk about this topic. He is talking about One Drive and these repositories. 6:28 – Ed: We aren’t going to be mixing and matching. I used to work through GitHub. It’s exciting to see those people work close to me. 6:54 – Chuck. 6:59 – Ed: It has come a long way. 7:07 – Chuck: Beyond the FSF are we talking about other features or? 7:21 – Ed: We have unique features. We have branch policies. You can require that people do pole request. You have to use pole request and your CI has to pass and things like that. I think there is a lot of richness in our auditing. We have enterprise focus. At its core it still is Git. We can all interoperate. 8:17 – Chuck. 8:37 – Ed: You just can’t set it up with Apache. You have to figure it out. 8:51 – Chuck: The method of pushing and pulling. 9:06 – Chuck: You can try DevOps for free up to 5 users and unlimited private repos. People are interested in this because GitHub makes you pay for that. 9:38 – Ed and Chuck continue to talk. 9:50 – Ed: Pipelines is the most interesting thing we are working on. We have revamped the entire experience. Build and release. It’s easy to get started. We have a visual designer. Super helpful – super straightforward. Releases once your code is built – get it out to production say for example Azure. It’s the important thing to get your code out there. 10:55 – Chuck: How can someone start with this? 11:00 – Ed: Depends on where your repository is. It will look at your code. “Oh, I know what that is, I know how to build that!” Maybe everyone isn’t doing everything with JavaScript. If you are using DotNet then it will know. 12:05 – Chuck: What if I am using both a backend and a frontend? 12:11 – Ed: One repository? That’s when you will have to do a little hand packing on the... There are different opportunities there. If you have a bash script that does it for you. If not, then you can orchestrate it. Reduce the time it takes. If it’s an open source project; there’s 2 – what are you going to do with the other 8? You’d be surprised – people try to sneak that in there. 13:30 – Chuck: It seems like continuous integration isn’t a whole lot complicated. 13:39 – Ed: I am a simple guy that’s how I do it. You can do advanced stuff, though. The Cake Build system – they are doing some crazy things. We have got Windows, Lennox, and others. Are you building for Raspberries Pies, then okay, do this... It’s not just running a script. 15:00 – Chuck: People do get pretty complicated if they want. It can get complicated. Who knows? 15:26 – Chuck:  How much work do you have to do to set-up a Pipeline like that? 15:37 – Ed answers the question in detail. 16:03 – Chuck asks a question. 16:12 – Ed: Now this is where it gets contentious. If one fails... Our default task out of the box... 16:56 – Chuck: If you want 2 steps you can (like me who is crazy). 17:05 – Ed: Yes, I want to see if it failed. 17:17 – Chuck: Dude, writing code is hard. Once you have it built and tested – continuous deployment. 17:33 – Ed: It’s very easy. It’s super straightforward, it doesn’t have to be Azure (although I hope it is!). Ed continues this conversation. 18:43 – Chuck: And it just pulls it? 18:49 – Ed: Don’t poke holes into your firewall. We do give you a lot of flexibility 19:04 – Chuck: VPN credentials? 19:10 – Ed: Just run the... 19:25 – Chuck comments. 19:36 – Ed: ...Take that Zip... 20:02 – Ed: Once the planets are finely aligned then...it will just pull from it. 20:25 – Chuck: I host my stuff on Digital Ocean. 20:46 – Ed: It’s been awhile since I played with... 20:55 – Chuck. 20:59 – Ed and Chuck go back and forth with different situations and hypothetical situations. 21:10 – Ed: What is Phoenix? 21:20 – Chuck explains it. 21:25 – Ed: Here is what we probably don’t have is a lot of ERLANG support. 22:41 – Advertisement. 23:31 – Chuck: Let’s just say it’s a possibility. We took the strip down node and... 23:49 – Ed: I think it’s going to happen. 23:55 – Ed: Exactly. 24:02 – Chuck: Testing against Azure services. So, it’s one thing to run on my machine but it’s another thing when other things connect nicely with an Azure set-up. Does it connect natively once it’s in the Azure cloud? 24:35 – Ed: It should, but there are so many services, so I don’t want to say that everything is identical. We will say yes with an asterisk. 25:07 – Chuck: With continuous deployment... 25:41 – Ed: As an example: I have a CD Pipeline for my website. Every time I merge into master... Ed continues this hypothetical situation with full details. Check it out! 27:03 – Chuck: You probably can do just about anything – deploy by Tweet! 27:15 – Ed: You can stop the deployment if people on Twitter start complaining. 27:40 – Chuck: That is awesome! IF it is something you care about – and if it’s worth the time – then why not? If you don’t have to think about it then great. I have mentioned this before: Am I solving interesting problems? What projects do I want to work on? What kinds of contributions do I really want to contribute to open source? That’s the thing – if you have all these tools that are set-up then your process, how do you work on what, and remove the pain points then you can just write code so people can use! That’s the power of this – because it catches the bug before I have to catch it – then that saves me time. 30:08 – Ed: That’s the dream of computers is that the computers are supposed to make OUR lives easier. IF we can do that and catch those bugs before you catch it then you are saving time. Finding bugs as quickly as possible it avoids downtime and messy deployments. 31:03 – Chuck: Then you can use time for coding style and other things. I can take mental shortcuts. 31:37 – Ed: The other thing you can do is avoiding security problems. If a static code analysis tool catches an integer overflow then... 32:30 – Chuck adds his comments. Chuck: You can set your policy to block it or ignore it. Then you are running these tools to run security. There are third-party tools that do security analysis on your code. Do you integrate with those? 33:00 – Ed: Yep. My favorite is WhiteSource. It knows all of the open source and third-party tools. It can scan your code and... 34:05 – Chuck: It works with a lot of languages. 34:14 – Ed. 34:25 – Chuck: A lot of JavaScript developers are getting into mobile development, like Ionic, and others. You have all these systems out there for different stages for writing for mobile. Android, windows Phone, Blackberry... 35:04 – Ed: Let’s throw out Blackberry builds. We will ignore it. Mac OS dies a fine job. That’s why we have all of those. 35:29 – Chuck: But I want to run my tests, too! 35:36 – Ed: I really like to use App Center. It is ultimately incredible to see all the tests you can run. 36:29 – Chuck: The deployment is different, though, right? 36:40 – Ed: I have a friend who clicks a button in... Azure DevOps. 37:00 – Chuck: I like to remind people that this isn’t a new product. 37:15 – Ed: Yes, Azure DevOps. 37:24 – Chuck: Any new features that are coming out? 37:27 – Ed: We took a little break, but... 37:47 – Ed: We will pick back up once Ignite is over. We have a timeline on our website when we expect to launch some new features, and some are secret, so keep checking out the website. 39:07 – Chuck: What is the interplay between Azure DevOps and Visual Studio Code? Because they have plugins for freaking everything. I am sure there is something there that... 39:30 – Ed: I am a VI guy and I’m like 90% sure there is something there. You are an eMac’s guy? The way I think about it is through Git right out of the box. Yes, I think there are better things out there for integration. I know we have a lot of great things in Visual Code, because I worked with it. 40:45 – Chuck: Yes, people can look for extensions and see what the capabilities are. Chuck talks about code editor and tools.  41:28 – Ed: ... we have been pulling that out as quickly as possible. We do have IE extensions, I am sure there is something for VS Code – but it’s not where I want to spend my time. 42:02 – Chuck: Yes, sure. 42:07 – Ed: But everyone is different – they won’t work the way that I work. So there’s that. 42:30 – Ed: That Chuck. 42:36 – Chuck: Where do people get news? 42:42 – Ed: Go to here! 42:54 – Chuck: Where do people find you? 43:00 – Ed: Twitter! 43:07 – Chuck: Let’s do Picks! 43:20 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! Links: GitHub Microsoft’s Azure Microsoft’s Pipeline Azure DevOps Erlang WhiteSource Chuck’s Twitter Ed Thomson’s Twitter Ed Thomson’s GitHub Ed Thomson’s Website Ed Thomson’s LinkedIn Sponsors: Angular Boot Camp Fresh Books Get a Coder Job Course Picks: Ed Podcast - All Things Git

Panel: Charles Max Wood Special Guests: Ed Thomson In this episode, the Adventures in Angular panel talks with Ed Thomson who is a Program Manager at Azure through Microsoft, Developer, and Open Source Maintainer. Ed and Chuck discuss in full detail about Azure DevOps! Check out today’s episode to hear its new features and other exciting news! Show Topics: 0:59 – Live at Microsoft Ignite 1:03 – Ed: Hi! I am a Program Manager at Azure. 1:28 – Rewind 2 episodes to hear more about Azure DevOps! 1:51 – Ed: One of the moves from Pipelines to DevOps – they could still adopt Pipelines. Now that they are separate services – it’s great. 2:38 – Chuck talks about features he does and doesn’t use. 2:54 – Ed. 3:00 – Chuck: Repos and Pipelines. I am going to dive right in. Let’s talk about Repos. Microsoft just acquired GitHub. 3:18 – Ed: Technically we have not officially acquired GitHub. 3:34 – Chuck: It’s not done. It’s the end of September now. 3:55 – Ed: They will remain the same thing for a while. GitHub is the home for open source. Repos – we use it in Microsoft. Repositories are huge. There are 4,000 engineers working in these repositories. Everyone works in his or her own little area, and you have to work together. You have to do all this engineering to get there. We bit a tool and it basically if you run clone... Ed continues to talk about this topic. He is talking about One Drive and these repositories. 6:28 – Ed: We aren’t going to be mixing and matching. I used to work through GitHub. It’s exciting to see those people work close to me. 6:54 – Chuck. 6:59 – Ed: It has come a long way. 7:07 – Chuck: Beyond the FSF are we talking about other features or? 7:21 – Ed: We have unique features. We have branch policies. You can require that people do pole request. You have to use pole request and your CI has to pass and things like that. I think there is a lot of richness in our auditing. We have enterprise focus. At its core it still is Git. We can all interoperate. 8:17 – Chuck. 8:37 – Ed: You just can’t set it up with Apache. You have to figure it out. 8:51 – Chuck: The method of pushing and pulling. 9:06 – Chuck: You can try DevOps for free up to 5 users and unlimited private repos. People are interested in this because GitHub makes you pay for that. 9:38 – Ed and Chuck continue to talk. 9:50 – Ed: Pipelines is the most interesting thing we are working on. We have revamped the entire experience. Build and release. It’s easy to get started. We have a visual designer. Super helpful – super straightforward. Releases once your code is built – get it out to production say for example Azure. It’s the important thing to get your code out there. 10:55 – Chuck: How can someone start with this? 11:00 – Ed: Depends on where your repository is. It will look at your code. “Oh, I know what that is, I know how to build that!” Maybe everyone isn’t doing everything with JavaScript. If you are using DotNet then it will know. 12:05 – Chuck: What if I am using both a backend and a frontend? 12:11 – Ed: One repository? That’s when you will have to do a little hand packing on the... There are different opportunities there. If you have a bash script that does it for you. If not, then you can orchestrate it. Reduce the time it takes. If it’s an open source project; there’s 2 – what are you going to do with the other 8? You’d be surprised – people try to sneak that in there. 13:30 – Chuck: It seems like continuous integration isn’t a whole lot complicated. 13:39 – Ed: I am a simple guy that’s how I do it. You can do advanced stuff, though. The Cake Build system – they are doing some crazy things. We have got Windows, Lennox, and others. Are you building for Raspberries Pies, then okay, do this... It’s not just running a script. 15:00 – Chuck: People do get pretty complicated if they want. It can get complicated. Who knows? 15:26 – Chuck:  How much work do you have to do to set-up a Pipeline like that? 15:37 – Ed answers the question in detail. 16:03 – Chuck asks a question. 16:12 – Ed: Now this is where it gets contentious. If one fails... Our default task out of the box... 16:56 – Chuck: If you want 2 steps you can (like me who is crazy). 17:05 – Ed: Yes, I want to see if it failed. 17:17 – Chuck: Dude, writing code is hard. Once you have it built and tested – continuous deployment. 17:33 – Ed: It’s very easy. It’s super straightforward, it doesn’t have to be Azure (although I hope it is!). Ed continues this conversation. 18:43 – Chuck: And it just pulls it? 18:49 – Ed: Don’t poke holes into your firewall. We do give you a lot of flexibility 19:04 – Chuck: VPN credentials? 19:10 – Ed: Just run the... 19:25 – Chuck comments. 19:36 – Ed: ...Take that Zip... 20:02 – Ed: Once the planets are finely aligned then...it will just pull from it. 20:25 – Chuck: I host my stuff on Digital Ocean. 20:46 – Ed: It’s been awhile since I played with... 20:55 – Chuck. 20:59 – Ed and Chuck go back and forth with different situations and hypothetical situations. 21:10 – Ed: What is Phoenix? 21:20 – Chuck explains it. 21:25 – Ed: Here is what we probably don’t have is a lot of ERLANG support. 22:41 – Advertisement. 23:31 – Chuck: Let’s just say it’s a possibility. We took the strip down node and... 23:49 – Ed: I think it’s going to happen. 23:55 – Ed: Exactly. 24:02 – Chuck: Testing against Azure services. So, it’s one thing to run on my machine but it’s another thing when other things connect nicely with an Azure set-up. Does it connect natively once it’s in the Azure cloud? 24:35 – Ed: It should, but there are so many services, so I don’t want to say that everything is identical. We will say yes with an asterisk. 25:07 – Chuck: With continuous deployment... 25:41 – Ed: As an example: I have a CD Pipeline for my website. Every time I merge into master... Ed continues this hypothetical situation with full details. Check it out! 27:03 – Chuck: You probably can do just about anything – deploy by Tweet! 27:15 – Ed: You can stop the deployment if people on Twitter start complaining. 27:40 – Chuck: That is awesome! IF it is something you care about – and if it’s worth the time – then why not? If you don’t have to think about it then great. I have mentioned this before: Am I solving interesting problems? What projects do I want to work on? What kinds of contributions do I really want to contribute to open source? That’s the thing – if you have all these tools that are set-up then your process, how do you work on what, and remove the pain points then you can just write code so people can use! That’s the power of this – because it catches the bug before I have to catch it – then that saves me time. 30:08 – Ed: That’s the dream of computers is that the computers are supposed to make OUR lives easier. IF we can do that and catch those bugs before you catch it then you are saving time. Finding bugs as quickly as possible it avoids downtime and messy deployments. 31:03 – Chuck: Then you can use time for coding style and other things. I can take mental shortcuts. 31:37 – Ed: The other thing you can do is avoiding security problems. If a static code analysis tool catches an integer overflow then... 32:30 – Chuck adds his comments. Chuck: You can set your policy to block it or ignore it. Then you are running these tools to run security. There are third-party tools that do security analysis on your code. Do you integrate with those? 33:00 – Ed: Yep. My favorite is WhiteSource. It knows all of the open source and third-party tools. It can scan your code and... 34:05 – Chuck: It works with a lot of languages. 34:14 – Ed. 34:25 – Chuck: A lot of JavaScript developers are getting into mobile development, like Ionic, and others. You have all these systems out there for different stages for writing for mobile. Android, windows Phone, Blackberry... 35:04 – Ed: Let’s throw out Blackberry builds. We will ignore it. Mac OS dies a fine job. That’s why we have all of those. 35:29 – Chuck: But I want to run my tests, too! 35:36 – Ed: I really like to use App Center. It is ultimately incredible to see all the tests you can run. 36:29 – Chuck: The deployment is different, though, right? 36:40 – Ed: I have a friend who clicks a button in... Azure DevOps. 37:00 – Chuck: I like to remind people that this isn’t a new product. 37:15 – Ed: Yes, Azure DevOps. 37:24 – Chuck: Any new features that are coming out? 37:27 – Ed: We took a little break, but... 37:47 – Ed: We will pick back up once Ignite is over. We have a timeline on our website when we expect to launch some new features, and some are secret, so keep checking out the website. 39:07 – Chuck: What is the interplay between Azure DevOps and Visual Studio Code? Because they have plugins for freaking everything. I am sure there is something there that... 39:30 – Ed: I am a VI guy and I’m like 90% sure there is something there. You are an eMac’s guy? The way I think about it is through Git right out of the box. Yes, I think there are better things out there for integration. I know we have a lot of great things in Visual Code, because I worked with it. 40:45 – Chuck: Yes, people can look for extensions and see what the capabilities are. Chuck talks about code editor and tools.  41:28 – Ed: ... we have been pulling that out as quickly as possible. We do have IE extensions, I am sure there is something for VS Code – but it’s not where I want to spend my time. 42:02 – Chuck: Yes, sure. 42:07 – Ed: But everyone is different – they won’t work the way that I work. So there’s that. 42:30 – Ed: That Chuck. 42:36 – Chuck: Where do people get news? 42:42 – Ed: Go to here! 42:54 – Chuck: Where do people find you? 43:00 – Ed: Twitter! 43:07 – Chuck: Let’s do Picks! 43:20 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! Links: GitHub Microsoft’s Azure Microsoft’s Pipeline Azure DevOps Erlang WhiteSource Chuck’s Twitter Ed Thomson’s Twitter Ed Thomson’s GitHub Ed Thomson’s Website Ed Thomson’s LinkedIn Sponsors: Angular Boot Camp Fresh Books Get a Coder Job Course Picks: Ed Podcast - All Things Git

Panel: Charles Max Wood Special Guests: Ed Thomson In this episode, the Adventures in Angular panel talks with Ed Thomson who is a Program Manager at Azure through Microsoft, Developer, and Open Source Maintainer. Ed and Chuck discuss in full detail about Azure DevOps! Check out today’s episode to hear its new features and other exciting news! Show Topics: 0:59 – Live at Microsoft Ignite 1:03 – Ed: Hi! I am a Program Manager at Azure. 1:28 – Rewind 2 episodes to hear more about Azure DevOps! 1:51 – Ed: One of the moves from Pipelines to DevOps – they could still adopt Pipelines. Now that they are separate services – it’s great. 2:38 – Chuck talks about features he does and doesn’t use. 2:54 – Ed. 3:00 – Chuck: Repos and Pipelines. I am going to dive right in. Let’s talk about Repos. Microsoft just acquired GitHub. 3:18 – Ed: Technically we have not officially acquired GitHub. 3:34 – Chuck: It’s not done. It’s the end of September now. 3:55 – Ed: They will remain the same thing for a while. GitHub is the home for open source. Repos – we use it in Microsoft. Repositories are huge. There are 4,000 engineers working in these repositories. Everyone works in his or her own little area, and you have to work together. You have to do all this engineering to get there. We bit a tool and it basically if you run clone... Ed continues to talk about this topic. He is talking about One Drive and these repositories. 6:28 – Ed: We aren’t going to be mixing and matching. I used to work through GitHub. It’s exciting to see those people work close to me. 6:54 – Chuck. 6:59 – Ed: It has come a long way. 7:07 – Chuck: Beyond the FSF are we talking about other features or? 7:21 – Ed: We have unique features. We have branch policies. You can require that people do pole request. You have to use pole request and your CI has to pass and things like that. I think there is a lot of richness in our auditing. We have enterprise focus. At its core it still is Git. We can all interoperate. 8:17 – Chuck. 8:37 – Ed: You just can’t set it up with Apache. You have to figure it out. 8:51 – Chuck: The method of pushing and pulling. 9:06 – Chuck: You can try DevOps for free up to 5 users and unlimited private repos. People are interested in this because GitHub makes you pay for that. 9:38 – Ed and Chuck continue to talk. 9:50 – Ed: Pipelines is the most interesting thing we are working on. We have revamped the entire experience. Build and release. It’s easy to get started. We have a visual designer. Super helpful – super straightforward. Releases once your code is built – get it out to production say for example Azure. It’s the important thing to get your code out there. 10:55 – Chuck: How can someone start with this? 11:00 – Ed: Depends on where your repository is. It will look at your code. “Oh, I know what that is, I know how to build that!” Maybe everyone isn’t doing everything with JavaScript. If you are using DotNet then it will know. 12:05 – Chuck: What if I am using both a backend and a frontend? 12:11 – Ed: One repository? That’s when you will have to do a little hand packing on the... There are different opportunities there. If you have a bash script that does it for you. If not, then you can orchestrate it. Reduce the time it takes. If it’s an open source project; there’s 2 – what are you going to do with the other 8? You’d be surprised – people try to sneak that in there. 13:30 – Chuck: It seems like continuous integration isn’t a whole lot complicated. 13:39 – Ed: I am a simple guy that’s how I do it. You can do advanced stuff, though. The Cake Build system – they are doing some crazy things. We have got Windows, Lennox, and others. Are you building for Raspberries Pies, then okay, do this... It’s not just running a script. 15:00 – Chuck: People do get pretty complicated if they want. It can get complicated. Who knows? 15:26 – Chuck:  How much work do you have to do to set-up a Pipeline like that? 15:37 – Ed answers the question in detail. 16:03 – Chuck asks a question. 16:12 – Ed: Now this is where it gets contentious. If one fails... Our default task out of the box... 16:56 – Chuck: If you want 2 steps you can (like me who is crazy). 17:05 – Ed: Yes, I want to see if it failed. 17:17 – Chuck: Dude, writing code is hard. Once you have it built and tested – continuous deployment. 17:33 – Ed: It’s very easy. It’s super straightforward, it doesn’t have to be Azure (although I hope it is!). Ed continues this conversation. 18:43 – Chuck: And it just pulls it? 18:49 – Ed: Don’t poke holes into your firewall. We do give you a lot of flexibility 19:04 – Chuck: VPN credentials? 19:10 – Ed: Just run the... 19:25 – Chuck comments. 19:36 – Ed: ...Take that Zip... 20:02 – Ed: Once the planets are finely aligned then...it will just pull from it. 20:25 – Chuck: I host my stuff on Digital Ocean. 20:46 – Ed: It’s been awhile since I played with... 20:55 – Chuck. 20:59 – Ed and Chuck go back and forth with different situations and hypothetical situations. 21:10 – Ed: What is Phoenix? 21:20 – Chuck explains it. 21:25 – Ed: Here is what we probably don’t have is a lot of ERLANG support. 22:41 – Advertisement. 23:31 – Chuck: Let’s just say it’s a possibility. We took the strip down node and... 23:49 – Ed: I think it’s going to happen. 23:55 – Ed: Exactly. 24:02 – Chuck: Testing against Azure services. So, it’s one thing to run on my machine but it’s another thing when other things connect nicely with an Azure set-up. Does it connect natively once it’s in the Azure cloud? 24:35 – Ed: It should, but there are so many services, so I don’t want to say that everything is identical. We will say yes with an asterisk. 25:07 – Chuck: With continuous deployment... 25:41 – Ed: As an example: I have a CD Pipeline for my website. Every time I merge into master... Ed continues this hypothetical situation with full details. Check it out! 27:03 – Chuck: You probably can do just about anything – deploy by Tweet! 27:15 – Ed: You can stop the deployment if people on Twitter start complaining. 27:40 – Chuck: That is awesome! IF it is something you care about – and if it’s worth the time – then why not? If you don’t have to think about it then great. I have mentioned this before: Am I solving interesting problems? What projects do I want to work on? What kinds of contributions do I really want to contribute to open source? That’s the thing – if you have all these tools that are set-up then your process, how do you work on what, and remove the pain points then you can just write code so people can use! That’s the power of this – because it catches the bug before I have to catch it – then that saves me time. 30:08 – Ed: That’s the dream of computers is that the computers are supposed to make OUR lives easier. IF we can do that and catch those bugs before you catch it then you are saving time. Finding bugs as quickly as possible it avoids downtime and messy deployments. 31:03 – Chuck: Then you can use time for coding style and other things. I can take mental shortcuts. 31:37 – Ed: The other thing you can do is avoiding security problems. If a static code analysis tool catches an integer overflow then... 32:30 – Chuck adds his comments. Chuck: You can set your policy to block it or ignore it. Then you are running these tools to run security. There are third-party tools that do security analysis on your code. Do you integrate with those? 33:00 – Ed: Yep. My favorite is WhiteSource. It knows all of the open source and third-party tools. It can scan your code and... 34:05 – Chuck: It works with a lot of languages. 34:14 – Ed. 34:25 – Chuck: A lot of JavaScript developers are getting into mobile development, like Ionic, and others. You have all these systems out there for different stages for writing for mobile. Android, windows Phone, Blackberry... 35:04 – Ed: Let’s throw out Blackberry builds. We will ignore it. Mac OS dies a fine job. That’s why we have all of those. 35:29 – Chuck: But I want to run my tests, too! 35:36 – Ed: I really like to use App Center. It is ultimately incredible to see all the tests you can run. 36:29 – Chuck: The deployment is different, though, right? 36:40 – Ed: I have a friend who clicks a button in... Azure DevOps. 37:00 – Chuck: I like to remind people that this isn’t a new product. 37:15 – Ed: Yes, Azure DevOps. 37:24 – Chuck: Any new features that are coming out? 37:27 – Ed: We took a little break, but... 37:47 – Ed: We will pick back up once Ignite is over. We have a timeline on our website when we expect to launch some new features, and some are secret, so keep checking out the website. 39:07 – Chuck: What is the interplay between Azure DevOps and Visual Studio Code? Because they have plugins for freaking everything. I am sure there is something there that... 39:30 – Ed: I am a VI guy and I’m like 90% sure there is something there. You are an eMac’s guy? The way I think about it is through Git right out of the box. Yes, I think there are better things out there for integration. I know we have a lot of great things in Visual Code, because I worked with it. 40:45 – Chuck: Yes, people can look for extensions and see what the capabilities are. Chuck talks about code editor and tools.  41:28 – Ed: ... we have been pulling that out as quickly as possible. We do have IE extensions, I am sure there is something for VS Code – but it’s not where I want to spend my time. 42:02 – Chuck: Yes, sure. 42:07 – Ed: But everyone is different – they won’t work the way that I work. So there’s that. 42:30 – Ed: That Chuck. 42:36 – Chuck: Where do people get news? 42:42 – Ed: Go to here! 42:54 – Chuck: Where do people find you? 43:00 – Ed: Twitter! 43:07 – Chuck: Let’s do Picks! 43:20 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! Links: GitHub Microsoft’s Azure Microsoft’s Pipeline Azure DevOps Erlang WhiteSource Chuck’s Twitter Ed Thomson’s Twitter Ed Thomson’s GitHub Ed Thomson’s Website Ed Thomson’s LinkedIn Sponsors: Angular Boot Camp Fresh Books Get a Coder Job Course Picks: Ed Podcast - All Things Git

Panel: Charles Max Wood Special Guests: Ed Thomson In this episode, the Adventures in Angular panel talks with Ed Thomson who is a Program Manager at Azure through Microsoft, Developer, and Open Source Maintainer. Ed and Chuck discuss in full detail about Azure DevOps! Check out today’s episode to hear its new features and other exciting news! Show Topics: 0:59 – Live at Microsoft Ignite 1:03 – Ed: Hi! I am a Program Manager at Azure. 1:28 – Rewind 2 episodes to hear more about Azure DevOps! 1:51 – Ed: One of the moves from Pipelines to DevOps – they could still adopt Pipelines. Now that they are separate services – it’s great. 2:38 – Chuck talks about features he does and doesn’t use. 2:54 – Ed. 3:00 – Chuck: Repos and Pipelines. I am going to dive right in. Let’s talk about Repos. Microsoft just acquired GitHub. 3:18 – Ed: Technically we have not officially acquired GitHub. 3:34 – Chuck: It’s not done. It’s the end of September now. 3:55 – Ed: They will remain the same thing for a while. GitHub is the home for open source. Repos – we use it in Microsoft. Repositories are huge. There are 4,000 engineers working in these repositories. Everyone works in his or her own little area, and you have to work together. You have to do all this engineering to get there. We bit a tool and it basically if you run clone... Ed continues to talk about this topic. He is talking about One Drive and these repositories. 6:28 – Ed: We aren’t going to be mixing and matching. I used to work through GitHub. It’s exciting to see those people work close to me. 6:54 – Chuck. 6:59 – Ed: It has come a long way. 7:07 – Chuck: Beyond the FSF are we talking about other features or? 7:21 – Ed: We have unique features. We have branch policies. You can require that people do pole request. You have to use pole request and your CI has to pass and things like that. I think there is a lot of richness in our auditing. We have enterprise focus. At its core it still is Git. We can all interoperate. 8:17 – Chuck. 8:37 – Ed: You just can’t set it up with Apache. You have to figure it out. 8:51 – Chuck: The method of pushing and pulling. 9:06 – Chuck: You can try DevOps for free up to 5 users and unlimited private repos. People are interested in this because GitHub makes you pay for that. 9:38 – Ed and Chuck continue to talk. 9:50 – Ed: Pipelines is the most interesting thing we are working on. We have revamped the entire experience. Build and release. It’s easy to get started. We have a visual designer. Super helpful – super straightforward. Releases once your code is built – get it out to production say for example Azure. It’s the important thing to get your code out there. 10:55 – Chuck: How can someone start with this? 11:00 – Ed: Depends on where your repository is. It will look at your code. “Oh, I know what that is, I know how to build that!” Maybe everyone isn’t doing everything with JavaScript. If you are using DotNet then it will know. 12:05 – Chuck: What if I am using both a backend and a frontend? 12:11 – Ed: One repository? That’s when you will have to do a little hand packing on the... There are different opportunities there. If you have a bash script that does it for you. If not, then you can orchestrate it. Reduce the time it takes. If it’s an open source project; there’s 2 – what are you going to do with the other 8? You’d be surprised – people try to sneak that in there. 13:30 – Chuck: It seems like continuous integration isn’t a whole lot complicated. 13:39 – Ed: I am a simple guy that’s how I do it. You can do advanced stuff, though. The Cake Build system – they are doing some crazy things. We have got Windows, Lennox, and others. Are you building for Raspberries Pies, then okay, do this... It’s not just running a script. 15:00 – Chuck: People do get pretty complicated if they want. It can get complicated. Who knows? 15:26 – Chuck:  How much work do you have to do to set-up a Pipeline like that? 15:37 – Ed answers the question in detail. 16:03 – Chuck asks a question. 16:12 – Ed: Now this is where it gets contentious. If one fails... Our default task out of the box... 16:56 – Chuck: If you want 2 steps you can (like me who is crazy). 17:05 – Ed: Yes, I want to see if it failed. 17:17 – Chuck: Dude, writing code is hard. Once you have it built and tested – continuous deployment. 17:33 – Ed: It’s very easy. It’s super straightforward, it doesn’t have to be Azure (although I hope it is!). Ed continues this conversation. 18:43 – Chuck: And it just pulls it? 18:49 – Ed: Don’t poke holes into your firewall. We do give you a lot of flexibility 19:04 – Chuck: VPN credentials? 19:10 – Ed: Just run the... 19:25 – Chuck comments. 19:36 – Ed: ...Take that Zip... 20:02 – Ed: Once the planets are finely aligned then...it will just pull from it. 20:25 – Chuck: I host my stuff on Digital Ocean. 20:46 – Ed: It’s been awhile since I played with... 20:55 – Chuck. 20:59 – Ed and Chuck go back and forth with different situations and hypothetical situations. 21:10 – Ed: What is Phoenix? 21:20 – Chuck explains it. 21:25 – Ed: Here is what we probably don’t have is a lot of ERLANG support. 22:41 – Advertisement. 23:31 – Chuck: Let’s just say it’s a possibility. We took the strip down node and... 23:49 – Ed: I think it’s going to happen. 23:55 – Ed: Exactly. 24:02 – Chuck: Testing against Azure services. So, it’s one thing to run on my machine but it’s another thing when other things connect nicely with an Azure set-up. Does it connect natively once it’s in the Azure cloud? 24:35 – Ed: It should, but there are so many services, so I don’t want to say that everything is identical. We will say yes with an asterisk. 25:07 – Chuck: With continuous deployment... 25:41 – Ed: As an example: I have a CD Pipeline for my website. Every time I merge into master... Ed continues this hypothetical situation with full details. Check it out! 27:03 – Chuck: You probably can do just about anything – deploy by Tweet! 27:15 – Ed: You can stop the deployment if people on Twitter start complaining. 27:40 – Chuck: That is awesome! IF it is something you care about – and if it’s worth the time – then why not? If you don’t have to think about it then great. I have mentioned this before: Am I solving interesting problems? What projects do I want to work on? What kinds of contributions do I really want to contribute to open source? That’s the thing – if you have all these tools that are set-up then your process, how do you work on what, and remove the pain points then you can just write code so people can use! That’s the power of this – because it catches the bug before I have to catch it – then that saves me time. 30:08 – Ed: That’s the dream of computers is that the computers are supposed to make OUR lives easier. IF we can do that and catch those bugs before you catch it then you are saving time. Finding bugs as quickly as possible it avoids downtime and messy deployments. 31:03 – Chuck: Then you can use time for coding style and other things. I can take mental shortcuts. 31:37 – Ed: The other thing you can do is avoiding security problems. If a static code analysis tool catches an integer overflow then... 32:30 – Chuck adds his comments. Chuck: You can set your policy to block it or ignore it. Then you are running these tools to run security. There are third-party tools that do security analysis on your code. Do you integrate with those? 33:00 – Ed: Yep. My favorite is WhiteSource. It knows all of the open source and third-party tools. It can scan your code and... 34:05 – Chuck: It works with a lot of languages. 34:14 – Ed. 34:25 – Chuck: A lot of JavaScript developers are getting into mobile development, like Ionic, and others. You have all these systems out there for different stages for writing for mobile. Android, windows Phone, Blackberry... 35:04 – Ed: Let’s throw out Blackberry builds. We will ignore it. Mac OS dies a fine job. That’s why we have all of those. 35:29 – Chuck: But I want to run my tests, too! 35:36 – Ed: I really like to use App Center. It is ultimately incredible to see all the tests you can run. 36:29 – Chuck: The deployment is different, though, right? 36:40 – Ed: I have a friend who clicks a button in... Azure DevOps. 37:00 – Chuck: I like to remind people that this isn’t a new product. 37:15 – Ed: Yes, Azure DevOps. 37:24 – Chuck: Any new features that are coming out? 37:27 – Ed: We took a little break, but... 37:47 – Ed: We will pick back up once Ignite is over. We have a timeline on our website when we expect to launch some new features, and some are secret, so keep checking out the website. 39:07 – Chuck: What is the interplay between Azure DevOps and Visual Studio Code? Because they have plugins for freaking everything. I am sure there is something there that... 39:30 – Ed: I am a VI guy and I’m like 90% sure there is something there. You are an eMac’s guy? The way I think about it is through Git right out of the box. Yes, I think there are better things out there for integration. I know we have a lot of great things in Visual Code, because I worked with it. 40:45 – Chuck: Yes, people can look for extensions and see what the capabilities are. Chuck talks about code editor and tools.  41:28 – Ed: ... we have been pulling that out as quickly as possible. We do have IE extensions, I am sure there is something for VS Code – but it’s not where I want to spend my time. 42:02 – Chuck: Yes, sure. 42:07 – Ed: But everyone is different – they won’t work the way that I work. So there’s that. 42:30 – Ed: That Chuck. 42:36 – Chuck: Where do people get news? 42:42 – Ed: Go to here! 42:54 – Chuck: Where do people find you? 43:00 – Ed: Twitter! 43:07 – Chuck: Let’s do Picks! 43:20 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! Links: GitHub Microsoft’s Azure Microsoft’s Pipeline Azure DevOps Erlang WhiteSource Chuck’s Twitter Ed Thomson’s Twitter Ed Thomson’s GitHub Ed Thomson’s Website Ed Thomson’s LinkedIn Sponsors: Angular Boot Camp Fresh Books Get a Coder Job Course Picks: Ed Podcast - All Things Git

This episode covers Chapter 105 of Rosen’s Emergency Medicine (9th Ed.), Suicide.  Episode Overview: Suicide is a common but preventable cause of death Suicide is usually triggered by treatable or reversible short-term crises Most attempted suicide survivors are grateful to be alive Suicide risk changes over time; estimations of imminent risk are NOT evidence-based Routine screening labs provide little value to most ED patients with self-harm behaviours Evaluations should be targeted to signs or symptoms of disease on presentation Any ED visit for suicidal thoughts or behaviours represents a crisis and a teachable moment With your approach, it is important to be supportive, empathetic, and patient-centred Have a collaborative plan that integrates the input from collateral sources When caring for suicidal patients, use precautions: Sitters Physical/chemical restraints Involuntary admission forms Brief and focused risk assessment of patients in the ED can identify persons in need of further comprehensive evaluation and consultation with a mental health specialist Those patients who are deemed to be at low-risk of suicide may be discharged home to a safe and supportive environment, assuming they have no access to toxic medications or guns They should receive education and safety planning in the ED They should have early mental follow-up appointments   Core questions: Name 10 risk factors for suicide Name an additional 5 risk factors for adolescent suicide Describe the SAD PERSONS Scale Describe 4 potential targeted investigations for patients presenting to the ED with suicide Name 3 protective factors for against suicide

This episode covers Chapter 105 of Rosen’s Emergency Medicine (9th Ed.), Suicide.  Episode Overview: Suicide is a common but preventable cause of death Suicide is usually triggered by treatable or reversible short-term crises Most attempted suicide survivors are grateful to be alive Suicide risk changes over time; estimations of imminent risk are NOT evidence-based Routine screening labs provide little value to most ED patients with self-harm behaviours Evaluations should be targeted to signs or symptoms of disease on presentation Any ED visit for suicidal thoughts or behaviours represents a crisis and a teachable moment With your approach, it is important to be supportive, empathetic, and patient-centred Have a collaborative plan that integrates the input from collateral sources When caring for suicidal patients, use precautions: Sitters Physical/chemical restraints Involuntary admission forms Brief and focused risk assessment of patients in the ED can identify persons in need of further comprehensive evaluation and consultation with a mental health specialist Those patients who are deemed to be at low-risk of suicide may be discharged home to a safe and supportive environment, assuming they have no access to toxic medications or guns They should receive education and safety planning in the ED They should have early mental follow-up appointments   Core questions: Name 10 risk factors for suicide Name an additional 5 risk factors for adolescent suicide Describe the SAD PERSONS Scale Describe 4 potential targeted investigations for patients presenting to the ED with suicide Name 3 protective factors for against suicide

Ed Bogle is a Strategic Planning Consultant that serves as a mentor, coach and consultant to entrepreneurs and non-profit executives. In the case of non-profits, Ed specializes in developing and implementing innovative solutions in defining their strategic value to those they serve and building a "brand" that moves beyond scarcity to a level of abundance.  His firm ideationEDGE works with their clients to understand their "value" creation and "revenue" production. He has worked with and served as a coach and mentor to several non-profits and two of Inc Magazine's Entrepreneur of the Year regional winners. He developed a deep passion for non-profits through a frustration from serving on boards and seeing great visionary work die due to funding shortages and donor fatigue.  Understanding revenues and creating abundance comes from carefully crafted strategies driven from a long-term vision and a constancy of purpose. Some questions to ponder: What is strategy and why is it important to the charity I lead? Does a written strategic plan limit my creativity? Why and how should me board be involved in the planning? How does anyone predict the future with any success? Here's the Transcript Nonprofit Chat – Ed Bogle – 7/18/17 Hugh Ballou: Welcome. It's another session of the Nonprofit Chat live. We're going to talk about some important stuff tonight. Russell Dennis has been my co-host on this series. Russell, how are you doing tonight? Russell Dennis: It's another fine night here in the mountain west. Beautiful skies and life is good. Hugh: You are always good. We are in the old mountains. I am in southwest Virginia, and it's a lovely evening. We have a mutual friend on here tonight. Besides that, we know he is a very skilled professional. We know he works with business leaders on all levels. He has a special niche of helping entrepreneurs get clarity on what their vision is, on what their market is, and how we get there. We call that strategy. He has done some amazing projects with some specific nonprofits, and there have been some that have really done well. Ed understands the nonprofit space. He understands what the challenges are, and how to come around and address those challenges. Ed, welcome to the Nonprofit Chat tonight. Ed: Thanks, Hugh. I am privileged to be here. I have a great passion for the nonprofit world. We need them to do their jobs and live their vision and mission so we can make it a better world. I will do what I can to help. Hugh: Somebody once taught me that the work of nonprofits is more important now than ever before in history, and there are fewer resources. We have to do really well at describing the impact we are going to have in people's lives. I think it was a guy named Ed Bogle who told that to me. Ed: I had a good idea about some of that stuff now, didn't I? Well, you know, so many nonprofits, and even our churches, come from a position of scarcity so often. That clarity of vision and that clarity of the persona, the branding, you talked a couple sessions ago about the branding world, it is what gets people excited to your brand. It has a business flavor to it. When we do that, we find some pretty magnanimous results. We really like to carry into the nonprofit a lot of the business sector stuff and hopefully do it better. Hugh: Our friend David Corbin talked about brand slaughter. We illuminated a few things in that session, as you might expect. Everybody has a uniqueness to share about this. As I understand strategy, it is the framework that is going to help us engage our stakeholders. Otherwise, people are hunting for what to do. It's the clarity of the sequence. It's the railroad tracks to get you from where you are to where you want to be. Before we get into the strategy world, let's talk about the Bogle world. It's not the wine Bogle world; it's the Ed Bogle world. Ed: I drink a lot of that. Nah, I'm kidding. Hugh: But your people bring it over and you have a whole closetful. Ed: At one time, we had 45 bottles of Bogle wine in our house. Hugh: I know what to ask for next time I'm there. Let's talk about Ed Bogle. Who is Ed Bogle, and what is your background in strategy, and why is that important to you? We'll talk about you first, and then we'll talk about it for others. Ed: Basically, my undergraduate was in marketing, and my graduate degree was in strategy. But I was trained as an investment banker and commercial lender until that bank brought in a new president and said, “We want you to be the marketing and strategy guy because you have the educational background for it. You just finished our year-long management and development program, so you can do that.” I took that on, and the long and short of that story is that we grew the bank from $250 million to $1.6 billion in less than four years without an acquisition. It was all organic growth because he gave me carte blanche to focus on what was changing in the marketplace and how we related to our customers. That early on lesson was all about getting not only outside of the box, but it was innovating. We did some innovating stuff. Some of you may have heard of a little piece of equipment called an ATM. We put the first remote automated teller system in the country out. We put 12 units out all at once and promoted the living daylights out of it. That was 1975. The importance of that lesson is to look for the innovation, to look for the change. We so far exceeded our own expectations of what that would do. After I left the banking industry, I went to work for a little firm called Ernst and Young, then one of the big eight. I was part of a team of seven that built their strategy process over about a year long. Then I was leading a team of three to adopt that to the entrepreneurial services world. It was in my days at Ernst and Young that I had my first brushes with the nonprofit world. I saw a lot of people running around with a lot of tasks and people holding out their hats begging for the same donors every year. That is where I learned a term called donor fatigue, which all of us are familiar with. We wear them out. While I was at Ernst and Young, we created a process called focus strategic framework. Our plans end up on one page, and we have used it in the nonprofit sector as well as the church sector. It's all about change. One of the great lessons of strategy that I learned through that course of effort is one of the only constants is change. If you agree that the world is going to change, and you agree it is pretty unpredictable. Back when I used to speak and lecture, I asked, “How many people believe the conditions under which your business exist today will be the same three years from now?” I have never had anybody raise their hands. I would suspect that would be true in the nonprofit world. The way you conduct your business won't be the same three years from now. You get that clarity of vision, that clarity of purpose, that engagement culture that really goes with this. People ride for the brand. That is the critical part of the integration of the framework process. We have a new vision, mission, brand strategy. We have set objectives and all of that, and we know that is going to change, so we like to get people on a horizon of 5-7 years out, then concentrate what we are going to do the next 12-18 months. Then build such a culture internally that people are engaged in change. They have their antennae out. It's not solely the responsibility of the leadership of any organization; it's a responsibility of everybody. I don't know if the brand guys talk to this, but if I can get anybody in my organization riding for the brand—they defend the brand, understand the brand, have clarity on vision, mission, purpose of the organization—their role in fulfilling the brand, and I am not talking about their job description. If I get that, then I will have the ability to change and integrate and build a culture that will be successful. Then if I study the marketplace, it starts and stops with a customer or somebody that you are engaging in your organization. It starts with your constituents, your stakeholders. How are we creating value for them, and how do we create that value over time? If I pick on the churches for just a second, why is it that all the big churches out there now seem to be these rock 'n' roll churches? The non-traditional churches are having trouble getting people in their pews, yet the churches like- There is one here that has 26 locations around the country called Life Church. They have four locations in Tulsa. That place is packed. They have six services on Sunday, and all six of them are packed. Where is that coming from? It's all about understanding your target market and how you serve them. I'll quit there; otherwise, it will start to feel like I am teaching class. Hugh: That is part of what it is. Russ, does that pique some interest for you? Russell: It all makes perfect sense. These are some of the things that I have been trying to convey to people in creating a framework when I work with nonprofits. It's getting to that mission and understanding who you are at your core. Knowing people at your very core is important. Those churches with the music, what they are going to find is they have a younger audience. You're going out there and really talking to markets. It almost seems like dirty language to some in the nonprofit world, but what we have are customers; we just have different segments. Donors are one segment. The people who get your services are the other. If you don't understand what they need, the people that you put programs together to serve, nobody will access your services. I have had talks with people who say, “I don't get it. Nobody is coming.” We went through and talked about what some of those needs for those clients were. There is definitely a need, but they decided they are going to operate out of a location that was not accessible to the people they wanted to serve. Hugh: The church world is not very different than some of the other worlds. I was on a chamber webinar today with one of the chambers in Florida. Engagement, and especially engagement with millennials, but they said the other organizations in the neighborhood, the rotaries and other service clubs, have had sidebar with the chamber saying that they are having trouble growing their membership. They are having trouble engaging people. It was a whole session about board empowerment today. I suggested with a lack of strategy, people don't know where to be engaged or what to do. They aren't really clear what the endgame is. Furthermore, if they weren't part of the initial planning process, or at last a revision or upgrading, and doing tactics for the long-term objectives, they really aren't engaged at all. There is a trend for boards not to be effective. Let's go back to the centrality of strategy. As you know, I approach the world with the left and right brain. As a musician, we have a very specific framework. In music, it's the sheet music itself, the musical score. All the players have their parts. The analogy I make is that it's their strategy, and everybody on the team has their own piece of the action plan. They know when to play, how loud to play, how fast to play, and we direct the process rather than try to do it all. There is the heavy lifting on the front to put that together. Respond to some of that long dialogue about strategy. I am an Ed Bogle strategy fan. You strategize your life as well as everyone else. Ed: My wife also told me that that didn't work very well in strategizing your life and the raising of your children. With the latter, I would totally agree. It's impossible to strategize raising children, so give it up if you are trying it. I tried it, and it didn't work. In response to what you were talking about, Hugh, the whole thing is you want everybody in your organization to be bought into the mission and vision of what you are doing. Therefore, they need to be a part of it. That doesn't mean they need to sit through long planning meetings, but they need to be a part of the development of that strategy. In particular, one of the things we do oftentimes is we have people in the organization that have different roles or employees, in the case of some of them, that they write their description of their role. Not their job description, not their daily task, but what is their role in completing or living to that vision and mission of that organization? It's stunning what we come up with. If we attach them to this one-page framework, or any framework you use, what happens is they now have ownership. Russell mentioned common sense earlier, and the old adage is that it's not so common. What in particular that gives organizations sustainability, stickability, is the engagement of cultures. I want people internally riding for the brand. That means they are bought into that constant collaboration and innovation. They don't have silos of jobs. They are wrapped around what is our value, our brand promise is to our constituents. What is our brand position? How do they attach to that? What is their role in doing that? We use a few tools to do that. Hugh, I know you have a few things you do with organizations to bring them to that level. Gosh, if they've got this framework down and they understand it. If you give them vision, if you have a one-page framework that links from mission to vision, values, purposes, grand strategy all the way out to long-term objectives, competencies, capabilities, long-term objectives, short-term objectives, strategies, and action plan, it's a big one page. At the end of the day, I have had clients blow up wall-size versions of this framework, and we would do training sessions where they would work with their division, their people, for themselves individually as to how I am attached to that framework, that strategy. Then they would all autograph it. There is one client I started working with nearly 30 years ago that still does that stuff. They are running out of places for people to sign. It's amazing the difference it makes when you bring that level of consciousness up for their connection to the organization, vision and mission, as opposed to a set of tasks, a job task. It's critically important. I don't care if you're a charity, church, or for-profit. In today's world, if the only constant is change, how do you change? You have to have the people going with you. In fact, if you really look deeply at innovation in organizations, it usually comes from the lowest level, who are the people closest to our constituents or customers. Am I making any sense? Hugh: You are. Addressing the needs of the world. When you teach, usually when I am with you, you are teaching me. You don't know it, but I am listening. The describing the impact, especially for charities. If we are going to attract people who want to be engaged with us, as you know, in SynerVision, we are encouraging people to use other words than “volunteer.” We want servant leaders, we want community leaders, and in churches, we want members of ministry. There is another term that indicates they are active and are doing something meaningful. Volunteer means it's laidback and I will do what I have to do until I go home. We are about changing paradigms, and we get stuck in the activity mode rather than the results mode. Part of what I value about your teaching is we define the end result, we look at what we are going toward, so then we get people looking in the same direction. I heard you say a couple things here, and then I want to come back and ask you about the significance. One is about the one page. One was I've met your children and I think you did a fine job. They are fine human beings. Ed: My wife did. Hugh: That's usually the case. Ed: Credit where credit is due, please. Hugh: We overcame our shortages. What is the significance of being able to have it on one page? Ed: There are a couple of points about that. One is it's easy to digest and look at it. There are a lot of supporting documents sometimes. You can go to an electronic file on Mission, and there will be tons of documents and videos for people who want to understand and learn about those parts of it. We call it an agenda for leadership because it links everything together. The leaders of the organization now have the ability to go out and say, “Hey, here is our framework.” When most of our clients do quarterly reviews, including the nonprofits, they go in and do what we call the rearview mirror in the windshield. Rearview mirror is what has happened to us and why. Then you have the windshield, which is bigger. That is the proportionate amount of time you spend on that. The rearview mirror, what happened to you, you can't do anything about it, but you can take a little bit of the lessons learned. Some organizations now aren't even doing any rearview mirror. The Twitter CEO said a few years ago, “We don't even look in the rearview mirror anymore. It's all forward.” It's a little bit of creating processes internally. What you do is you look in the rearview mirror, you look out your windshield, and you bring it back into that framework and see if you need to change strategies. Is it something we need to do now? Do we need to reallocate resources? That one-page framework becomes a document from which you can make decision and assess changes in your organizations and make things happen. Hugh: There is some synergy in what you said and what David Corbin said. Everybody brings a little bit of extra perspective to the topics that people think they know a lot about but we really don't. I like that. Russell, do you have a comment or question brewing? He needs a hard question. Russell: You can't stump a man with as much experience as he has. He has been at a few rodeos. A lot of what he is talking about are things I try to incorporate. Having everybody participate in it is important. That seems to be a little bit of a problem spot from what I am seeing. You get a few people. You might even have a power driver or some really strong personality in the group, and they just take over. People don't have that buy-in if you don't bring everybody together to formulate. I see that again and again. Ed: That doesn't mean you have to drive people through lots of meetings. Especially in the corporate world, we have a lot of meetings. A client of mine refers to a staff meeting as a staff infection, which is what they affectionately call it. We could get into too many meetings. There are all sorts of tools and techniques to use to increase participation. It's not top-down. It's top-down, bottom's up, continuous flow of thought and conversation about strategy. Strategy is not the annual perfunctory enema that we go through to come up with a budget, which is what most corporations do. It is a process that should be integrated in and be a part of your management systems. It is not an outlier that occurs once a year. Create a plan and a budget. Hugh loves this phrase, but most of those plans end up as credenzaware. They go through this process. Any of you who worked in corporate America know what I'm talking about. They go through this annual ballyhoo of our assumptions and our plan. They hit the first of the financial projections, and expenses are too high, incomes and revenues too low, so they go back and redo it and redo it and redo it. Finally in December, the managers say, “What the heck is the number you want me to get?” Each department comes up with a way to hit their numbers. Now what do they have? We have a set of numbers not driven by a strategy. That spills over into the nonprofit world, too. A lot of the nonprofit world makes a lot of assumptions about what they cannot do. I don't know about you guys personally, but when I work with the nonprofit world, there is a lot of, “Well, we can't do that.” I worked with the Housing Authority of the city of Tulsa. One of the board members called the director an excuse bag. We're not funded. We can't be funded. We don't have enough funding. We can't raise that kind of money. They'd get into these circles of spiral downs. I have done it and seen it done elsewhere to where we can bring a level of excitement. Some of these nonprofits, it might take two decades to get to a certain point, but think about in the context of a corporation like Apple. It took them years to get to where they are. Did they have a road map to end up at the iPhone and iPad and all the services they provide now? No. They evolved to that. Any leader of any organization is the leader of change. It's not my job to come up with a five-year plan that we are going to stick to, live through, and file through. Go over the top with our energy levels and our dedication to that? No. It's the doctrine that may drive you. The purposes, the value systems are really important. Values can be a competency incidentally as a side note. What's important to me is the people are bought into that, including your constituents. Where a lot of organizations make the mistake is in raising money or attracting people to volunteer, they don't get them excited about it. Most of those organizations are about as exciting as- They have been doing the same thing for 24 years. I worked with one organization that is probably in its 30th year of the same annual fundraiser. It raises about the same annual amount of money. They just switch faces once a while because donors pass away or get fatigued. Where is the excitement? They have to get connected with your purpose, your why. A lot of folks forget about that. We have to go out and be very creative about how we craft and raise those funds and the funding. Hugh: To your point, there are two videos that are helpful. One is “Begin with Why” the Simon Sinek Ted Talk. “The Way We Think of Charity is Dead Wrong” by Dan Pallotta. He talks about how we have this perception that we can't do it, that we can't spend money on salaries or marketing. There is this fictitious percentage of overhead. Is your overhead too high? If you have to spend money on marketing and on bodies so you can serve the constituency and actually get traction to the vision you have articulated, I think busting those old perceptions- That is what I am all about: helping people shift their paradigm. I want to talk about the military part of tactics and transformational leadership because there is a synergy that occurred to me we have never talked about. We will expose it out here in public. But when you talk about strategy, I have actually had nonprofit leaders say, “No, no. I don't want to write anything down. It will limit my creativity,” to which I come back and say, “This is a solution map.” You've seen the SynerVision solution map, and you say that it's strategy, Hugh. Where do you want to be? How are you going to get there? I want you to respond this. My answer is that the strategy, the system, is the container for creativity. You can now be creative because you know how to be creative. You know where you're going, and you get the energy. Part of this is looking at your phases as you grow, so you are always keeping fresh. Talk about how that limits creativity and how you keep it fresh, your process of migrating it over time. Ed: The limitations on creativity is because we, corporations especially, everybody looks to the management for the answers, right? Creativity comes from the top, and that is totally 100% false. That is not generally where it's going to come from. The creativity or the future of any organization comes from within the people themselves and an examination on a periodic basis of that external environment is changing, both for opportunity and threat. Did Corbin talk about SWOT analysis? Hugh: He did not. Ed: He and I both abhor them, not because it's a bad tool, but the way we implement it. Everyone has the tendency to want to talk about what? Their strengths and their opportunities. They sweep the rest of the stuff, the weaknesses and the threats, under the carpet. If you have two of them, you have a SO-SO strategy because you are only focused on opportunities and strengths. You build an organization in response to people and constituents and how they are changing over time. One of my great frustrations when I run planning sessions is that I know I have young people in the room, and I know they are creative as hell and they have great ideas and thoughts. They don't want to embarrass themselves and bring that out. The leadership doesn't necessarily bring that out. In fact, in my early career, when I facilitated some of those meetings, it became a dialogue between myself and the CEO of the company. Boy was that meaningful. Not. We were limiting the creativity. We shift around, and we invite that creativity in. In fact, I encourage my CEOs of both nonprofit and for-profit organizations not to lay out scenarios. Let's come up with the scenarios. Let's put the antennae up. To me, one of the signs of great success in an organization is when I get compulsive innovation and collaboration. People talk around the water cooler, so to speak, although there aren't many of those anymore, about what's going on, what the future is, what the organization is. We do periodic methodologies where we check in with people and find out what is changing about our constituents. For example, if you want to get millennials involved with your organization today, they won't touch you with a ten-foot pole unless you can identify your why, your mission, your purpose, and how they have a role in fulfilling that. It's a whole different ball game. The limiting behaviors come because we have a tendency as leaders to bring people down the path we believe are important. That becomes trickier in the church world because they have doctrine. I also find doctrine personally as an excuse not to address what our members need. Hugh: Oh yeah. Ed: That's a fact based upon my experience. What was the second half you wanted me to talk about? Hugh: Actually to that point, that is one of the things limiting the church. The Methodist church is losing 1,200 members a week. That is not unique among mainline dominations. We have not made it relevant. We don't have a strategy. The Methodist church globally says that their mission is to make disciples. They need a strategist to help them develop a mission. What do you do after you develop disciples? We could talk about that all the time. Having someone who understands how strategy drives results. It's not inside. It's somebody external. The other part is your multi-phase growth plan and migrating it over time. Ed: What we do is bring in an organization into a three- or four-phase growth plan. That will cover a 5-7-year horizon. We don't have much detail, nor are we doing resourcing on phase three or four. We are resourcing that next phase because we are then using our quarterly meetings and our interchanges about what is changing and the opportunity, the rearview mirror, and the windshield to determine how we are going to change it. We continually update the phase growth plan. Even in the financial arena, we do a rolling horizon set of financials. Every quarter, we update that plan literally. It takes less than half a day to do it. But what a great investment. You are always revising that plan. Once you start down that path or mode, and you have people engaged in doing that, it changes the whole dynamics of the organization and its growth. I have seen it. I have done it in nonprofits. My favorite thing, the Life Senior Services here in Tulsa where I reside, that is such a dynamic organization. My latest one down in Houston, Texas called Reasoning Minds is a nonprofit all about math education. The bottom line is they are sitting right now on $25 million a year of revenues and income streams because of how they have structured. We got them out of scarcity mode and into a phase growth plan. They know where they want to be five years from now, and they had to bite the bullet and do some things differently, coming out of our strategy, getting rid of some things that were skeletons that hung in a closet forever, like committees. They were wasting time because nothing was attached to a framework; it was just commotion to commotion. Don't we all hate committees? When I was in the corporate world, they had committee meetings. You know how I treat committee meetings? I say, “Okay, you can form a committee as long as you write the epitaph of a committee.” What day are they going to die, and what is going to be the epitaph that says what is going to be accomplished? Hugh: What is your definition of a committee? It's a place where good ideas… Ed: …Die. No, they have a tendency to become- We have this committee and that committee, but they are not attached to a strategy. They become functional because they are supposed to do things. I'm not saying you kill committees. I am just saying to change the dynamics of what they are attached to. What is their contribution in the overall strategic plan? In the objectives? How do they contribute to that? Get the committee to identify that, and then you migrate it over time. Hugh: I don't know about this killing thing. I have spoken to a few people about team execution, and they got really excited because they thought they were going to get to shoot people. Ed: They though execution was a firing squad, huh? Hugh: I shouldn't joke like that. This is a lot of really good tactical stuff. Let's look at the grand strategy as a model of you have an objective, and then you define the tactics for that objective. Transformational leadership was birthed out of the military model, where you have to have a high-performing team that you cannot micro-manage when you are in combat. I have reframed that to be an orchestra model, and in a concert, you can't be telling people what to do. You have to have rehearsed. It's the integration of what's written into performance. We have to make it come alive. The grand strategy comes out of this world. Speak a little bit about objectives. We see a lot of people doing this, that, and the other. We are talking to social entrepreneurs who might be running a church, charity, or business. Nonprofit executives are entrepreneurs because we are not doing the corporate thing. People ask me if all entrepreneurs suffer from insanity. I say, “Heck no, we enjoy it.” Ed: Well said. Hugh: This military model of laying down this track, speak a little bit about the genesis of strategy and how that relates. Work in the leadership piece if you will. Ed: The whole thing, just to expound on what you are saying there. Strategy has its birth. When I became a student of strategy, there was a gentleman who wrote a book called Ongoing Strategist by Michael David. The book was published in the early ‘80s. He was the mentor who Arthur Young hired to supervise us seven young renegades on how to put this process together to sell it to our clients. He made us read Napoleon's Maxim on War, Sun Tzu's The Art of War, Critical Analysis of the Vietnam War, whose basic premise was nobody understood the mission was; therefore, how could you ever win? It was pretty well borne out in the Vietnam War sadly. Some of the Middle East Wars had that flavor to them. It's hard for them to react in the field to what they are supposed to be doing. If you go deep into the military axioms, one word you never hear said is goals. Whenever you hear me use the word objective, they are interchangeable. Goals have the tendency to be softer, fluffier, not with a sharp edge. Military people are like they are going to take Mt. Sarabachi by next Tuesday. We want that kind of sharpness in our objectives in our organization so that the departments can break it down into pieces. The other thing that you learn about military stuff when you dive deeper is mass scale and superiority of defense. Charities don't have to work in these terms, but if you think about it, our nonprofits out there are competing for dollars, volunteers, and people. There is a thing about building a defensible position. The military world and its leadership, as you were talking about, if you get those troops out there, they are brought into the mission. They know we are going to win this war. The mission is to complete this war. They understand the mission. Their attachment to that becomes how they behave in the marketplaces, they execute your strategies and deploy your resources. It all ties back to that mission and that set of objectives. With real clarity of objectives. We let our business units and our subdivisions of our organization come back and say, “No, no, no, your long-term objectives are wrong. We need to change those.” Oftentimes they are not shooting high enough. A lot of the military stuff involves leadership, but it involves it to the point where people are doing what I talked about earlier, which was almost compulsive innovation and collaboration can make things occur. Work across departmental lines. It's not selfish. That's a lot of the problem with corporations. There are too many people competing with each other to rise to the top. Inside of those charity organizations, I think it is more critical maybe that we have that clarity of vision and mission and the attachment to purpose. The leadership has got to help embellish that and get people to buy into that, not just tell them what it is, but to buy into it. Why should they buy into it? How does it impact their daily work life when they are working with the organization? I don't know if I have successfully done the consultant bit and avoided answering your question, or if I was going where you thought I was going to go with that. Hugh: Russell, why don't you weigh in on that? Russell: I think you answered quite a bit there, why it's important for nonprofit leaders to buy into these types of things. I think that thinking is a lot softer in these nonprofit circles. With today's climate, we have to be firmer in our thinking because you are in business, you are providing value, and people need to see that value. We are in a place where there is a lot of noise out there, and people have a lot to choose from. If you don't give people good, firm calls to action, they will look to somebody else to solve the problem. With some of the problems we are facing, you have to be tenacious to get the resources and make a real difference in people's lives. The climate has changed in terms of what is out here, what is available. The government is looking to do less and less. They don't necessarily do everything. Ed: Sometimes it appears that way. Sometimes it doesn't. I don't know. If you figure out what direction our government is currently heading in, please send me a memo. I need to understand. I'm confused. Russell: I was just thinking about that remark that you made about the consultant not answering your question thing. You are going to have to get a lot better in the doubletalk to run . Ed: I would never succeed as a politician. I have been told I am excessively blunt in declaring the truth. Guess you can't do that as a politician. The importance of our charities, too, one comment came into my mind. We have a lot of people who are downtrodden and in poverty. We have a lot of bigotry in this country, let's face it. We have a lot of issues that are social issues. When the people get engaged and involved, that is when they get solved. Government does not have a great track record of solving social issues. Nor did our forefathers ever frame it to do that. We need our charities to step up and succeed. The good part about it is there is an awful lot of money and wealth out there that want to get involved into charities. Businesses, for-profit corporations, will not survive another decade without a purpose-driven agenda. If they don't stand for something for the greater good, their bottom line, their stock-holders, will not exist. The millennials don't buy into that. My youngest son got invited to General Motors up in Michigan. I had happy feet because we had just dropped $140,000 on his education. I thought that he would get this great job. He came back and said, “I can't work there. I don't like the way they do what I'm asked to do. I don't like anything about their values or systems. It's all about the profits. Their processes are bad. I will fail if I try to do that.” I did the standard dad bit and said, “Just get it on your resume for a little while.” Coming back full circle to that, the public/private partnership is only going to get bigger. You see more and more organizations working with nonprofits and dedicating some resources. We have a lot of billionaires out there who are looking for something. I got involved in a deal on a big project, and if you took the five wealthiest families in the country, three of the five were involved in this project. They want to get their money back out in circulation for meaningful things. There is an opportunity to do that, but they just don't want to hand their money to another charity that will fizzle and have a low-end impact. They want the exciting stuff. If you are a purpose-driven business—I am not talking about building a foundation and handing out money, I am talking about truly getting involved and adopting and working with these charities to really make things happen. That is where the leadership comes in. A quick side-note to Hugh in the leadership world: When we so succeeded with the Life Senior Services group and built such a powerful, responsive, well-thought-out organization where people fly in from all over the country to see, their question is, “How the hell did you guys do that?” We have around 36 board members. People will think that is a bit unwieldy. People are looking at it from the aspect of the board supervising and overseeing. That board is there to work with smaller groups and truly get involved in the execution of the strategy. We have attracted some business leaders out of the community, and a few of them provide money and help us raise additional money. I like a self-sustaining revenue model if I can get to it. The whole leadership thing is critically important, but you have to do it in a context of something people get excited about. Hugh: That brings us to the third question I posted earlier. The third one to ponder is about the board being engaged in the planning process. To your point, Ed, the integration of strategy and performance, you see people that write a strategy and it becomes credenzaware. It never gets integrated into the culture. We see people doing leadership and teams in the absence of a strategy. That is why I have created this nonconsulting position of the transformational leadership strategist. You can't separate leadership and strategy in my world. Ed: I agree. Hugh: The third point to ponder was about the board's engagement. We have spoken about it in this conversation. We are on the down-end of this hour. I want to hit some of the highlights about integrating the board into the process. In my experience of 31 years, the planners and the doers are the same. Otherwise, they will never be engaged. Talk about that a little bit. We are going to talk about how we predict the future as we wrap this up. Talk about how we engage the board and that process. Ed: The way we do that is because we use the focus framework process, which we developed in the hallowed halls of Ernst & Young years ago. I have tweaked it a lot since then and adapted it to the nonprofit world. We typically do is the board level talks of discussion, we set up with the boards that works really well, Hugh, and I think you do some of this also. One of the reasons we have 34 board members on Life Senior Services is we have mentoring and masterminds going on. I call it the M&Ms and the As. We build mentors. We use our board to mentor some of these people and help them build plans. We help them sit with the departmental people and build plans and facilitate. It makes a huge difference. The Masterminds is us masterminding the future. Everyone has inputs and portals to all of the things going on externally to our organization that might impact us in the future. We have masterminds going on, so people plug in and out of those. The leadership wants to monitor what is going on there. You know me, Hugh. I am an alliance partnership freak. I think one of the ways you get things done. One reason that Life Senior Services is successful and the Housing Authority is successful is because we built alliances with the people we needed to to execute our strategies. The leadership has got to in the planning process meet- There are two pieces to it. There is the overall purpose of the organization. What are our longer-term visions and objectives? There needs to be some clear definition there as to how you see that so we can at least get a scope of what we are trying to accomplish. The other part of that is the lower pieces of the organization flow that information back up, they react to that direction, some of them have been involved in mentoring and masterminding processes and have now created some departmental and divisional plans. Now we have a total integration between the board and the lower levels. That is not possible in every organization, but it works well for most. Did I successfully avoid your question? Hugh: There is not one right answer here. Ed: It does depend on the personality of the organization. One quick comment because I don't want to miss it in our last few minutes is that people who volunteer and get involved in boards flat-out need to be excited about what it is you're doing. Too many of these organizations don't look to their future in how it's really exciting. Back in the day when we were forming what was Tulsa Senior Services and now Life Senior Services formulated and moving forward, that organization was not exciting. It was mamby-pamby, oh they need a hotline, they need to find services, they need information, they need access to housing, caregivers. It is more of the perfunctory things these people need. We transformed the organization through the leadership. Man, when we start talking about the impact and the why of the organization, people bought into that. Then we transformed that out into the action. We did it pieces at a time. When we got that level of excitement up, then we attracted the funding. Hugh: That's the key. How can you say, “Give us money” when we haven't really done the preparation on the front end? Ed: They don't know what your brand is. I don't know if you got into talking about brand, but people don't buy into a brand today unless they connect to it emotionally. Hugh: One of the things that came up with both David Dunworth and David Corbin was that everybody in the organization represents the brand. Part of the engagement of the board is to understand what the brand promise, brand identity, and the brand pieces really are. How do they fairly represent the organization? It's not done that way in most of the charities that I've seen. I don't know about you, but there is a real connection of who you are and who you represent. Look at dragging off an airplane and you have Ann Coulter out of her seat. Ann Coulter missed a great opportunity. Delta was able to make it about her rather than their poor customer service. We won't mention the airline, sorry. You can take a pic. Those are brand slaughter. It does damage organizationally. All of this works together. It seems like it is an endless process with a lot of work. It is some heavy lifting and intense thinking. It is probably not as hard as most people make it. Ed: No, when you do it as an evolution, it's like raising your children. You won't open things up to them overnight and have them understand all of their possibilities. It is an evolution, and that is why we go through a phase growth plan and have them continually update that. It keeps the vision fresh. Back to the brand one more time. It's the brand emotion. All brands emote. It took me years to convince software developers that their brands had emotion, but I finally won those battles in most of those organizations. Even in your charities and nonprofits, what is your brand? What is exciting about your brand? Why would I want to get attached? One thing about millennials is they coincidentally by 2020 will be 40% of the work force. By 2025, they will be north of 55 or 60%. We will be dealing with the people that are millennials. They have to understand the purpose, the emotion of your brand to get connected to it. I am not saying categorically, but maybe that is the problem with your churches. They are not connecting their brand emotionally. Hugh: It is. Millennials will not substitute anything for integrity and authenticity. The boomers have done some disingenuous things, and millennials don't want anything to do with it. Actually, my article in my magazine Nonprofit Professional Performance 360 is about the similarities between the boomers and the millennials. We are going to wrap up here. Russ, I would like you to do a wrap-up on what you've heard. Russ has been taking notes on Ed Bogle sound bites. Then I will ask you, Ed, for your closing thoughts. Russell Dennis, what do you have to say on the end of this interview? Russell: This has all been good information. It's very important to have a strategy; everything starts with strategy. You get nowhere if you don't know what you're doing. It's critical to have younger people engaged. Some of these issues I have seen as a veteran, going to veteran events and organizations, there are no veterans under 25 at any of these events. In my mind, that's a problem. We see this across the spectrum. Your work has to mean something, or it does mean something. It means something to people out there. It's getting connected to the people that the work means something to that is the challenge. That takes work. There is a lot of work that has to be done internally, and you constantly have to have an improvement system and constantly measure and monitor what you're doing. You have to be excited about it because if you're not excited about it, who will write you a check? They will not be excited about your work if you are not excited about it either. It's really important. When it comes to masterminds and mentoring, I like the idea of reverse mentoring: getting some of these millennials in to teach older guys like us about these processes and new things. There is an opportunity inside an organization to do reverse mentoring because we have to bridge that generation gap if you are going to be relevant down the road. Hugh: Once again, Russell one-ups me. Ed, take us out. What are some closing thoughts for people? Thank you, Russ. Ed: Strategy is the discipline. It's part of your management process. It starts with your constituents and how you are going to serve them and how you are going to migrate it over time. Clearly understanding your brand and your emotion for them. That is where it all starts and stops. There was a brilliant guy, Theodore Leavitt, who was one of the founders of the real-marketing strategy world, who said a business, or even an organization for that matter, is all about finding and keeping a customer. You better take your constituents and understand them and your brand and what it represents to them. Hugh: Great words. Ed, thank you for sharing lots of really useful stuff tonight. Ed: Anybody that wants any further information on this, I am happy to share templates and stuff. Hugh: Thanks, Ed, for being with us. Ed: Thank you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices