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A Grace Disguised (Part 1) - Jerry SittserA Grace Disguised (Part 2) - Jerry SittserA Grace Disguised (Part 3) - Jerry SittserFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Descending Into the Valley Guest:                         Jerry Sittser From the series:          A Grace Disguised  (Day 1 of 3)  Bob:  There are times in the midst of trials and traumas of life when we wonder to ourselves where is God?  Why did He let this happen?   For Jerry Sittser one of those events occurred in 1991 when he and his wife and their four children and Jerry's mother were hit head on by a vehicle traveling at 85 miles per hour.  The collision was fatal for Jerry's wife and for his mom and for one of his four children.  As Jerry reflects back on that event today he sees it as something that was ultimately faith affirming.   Jerry Sittser:  Through a long and often difficult journey I really did discover the Christian faith is true.  Grace really is available to get us through these hard stretches of life.  The ultimate message of Christianity is not self help it is God's help.   Bob:  This is FamilyLife Today for Monday July 6th.  Our host is the President of FamilyLife Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll hear today how a tragic car accident can be a grace disguised.   Welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Thanks for joining us.  You and I were having a conversation not long ago with Dr. Al Moeller, the President of Southern Seminary and we asked him about questions he gets thrown by the secular media.  We said the tough questions are the ones they ask you.  What are the ones that put you on the spot?  Without even thinking he said we always come back to the issue of the problem of evil and suffering.  How can there be a good God when there is suffering in the world?   Dennis:  We don't always know what God is up to.  He is God and we are not.  We have a guest with us today on FamilyLife Today that I think is going to minister to a lot of our listeners.  Actually I was introduced to this guest by my wife Barbara, who joins us on FamilyLife Today as well.  Welcome Sweetie. Barbara Rainey:  Thanks.  I'm glad to be here. Dennis:  Jerry Sittser has written this book A Grace Disguised which is a story out of his own life and it occurred a number of years ago.  Jerry lives in Spokane Washington up in the eastern section of that great state.  He is a professor of theology at Whitworth University and has a Masters of Divinity from Fuller Theological Seminary and has his doctorate in history from the University of Chicago.  This leaves me with only one question Jerry, White Sox or Cubs? (laughter)Bob:  Or were you there long enough to even care? Dennis:  Oh he had to be if he had his PHD.   Jerry Sittser:  Dodgers! (laughter) Dennis:  Well, I do welcome you to the broadcast and I am grateful for you writing this book, A Grace Disguised.  I want Barbara to share with our listeners to help put in context out of which she gave me Jerry's book.  Bob:  Was this something somebody gave you as a gift?   Barbara:  It was a book that someone had recommended to me a number of years ago.  I bought it and started reading it and it was in my library.  But I didn't finish the book until last summer after our granddaughter Molly was born and only lived seven days and then died. As we began to try to make sense of what God had done and what He was up to I pulled that book off the shelf.  This time I had a real heart for it.  I needed it.  I read it all the way through and I was constantly underlining and reading portions of it to Dennis and saying “listen to what this says.”   I bought several copies and gave one to a couple of my daughters.  I gave one to Molly's mother, Rebecca, and a couple of our other daughters, too.  I said you need to have this in your library and if you don't read it all the way through right now you will read it eventually. Dennis:  It is really a love story of sorts that started when you met your wife Linda.  How did you meet her, Jerry? Jerry Sittser:  I was a student at Hope College and she was a student at Hope College in Holland, Michigan.  After I experienced a conversion between my sophomore and junior year we became very good friends.  Really best friends.  One day I was standing in a group of people and somebody got my attention from maybe 100 yards away and I turned and said something to them I'm sure.  I was a little cocky back then.   (laughter) Linda was in that circle and I turned back and our eyes met and that was it right there.  I just fell in love on the spot.    Dennis:  You were smitten. Jerry Sittser:  Oh, my goodness was I smitten. Bob:  But you'd known her for months before this?Jerry Sittser:  We were very good friends, yes. Bob:  So what in that moment you don't know? Jerry Sittser:  I don't know but our eyes met and it was just different.  So I asked her out a few days later and we were married eight months later.   Dennis:  No, no, no.  I want to know how you asked her to marry you because it has to be a great story. Jerry Sittser:  Well, we went up to some property that my family owned off the Grand River up in the hills.  We made a day of it and did some hiking and I had hidden a family heirloom a little silver container with the engagement ring inside it.  That also was the family stone.  I asked her to marry me.   Dennis:  You were married for 20 years.   Jerry Sittser:  Twenty years—just shy of 20 years and we had four children.   Dennis:  She was a homeschooler and she enjoyed teaching your kids.  Taking them on field trips, right? Jerry Sittser:  She was a multitalented woman.  She was very bright.  She was a professional musician and singer.  She was the choir director and the director of the professional children's choir in Spokane and a paid soloist at our home church and also a homeschooler.  Dennis:  You were on a field trip where you went to Idaho and it was not a normal field trip that you would think of when you think of homeschoolers.   Jerry Sittser:  She had just completed a unit on Native American cultures to my two oldest who were being homeschooled at the time.  We went on a field trip to a Native American powwow.  We had dinner with the tribal leaders and had a wonderful time and wonderful conversation.   Ironically one of the topics that came up was the curse of alcoholism in the tribe and the violence that often resulted from it.  They spoke with great pain over that.  These were really wonderful people.  Some fine Christian people.    After the dinner with them we went to the powwow and enjoyed it.  My two daughters who were then eight and four actually went out and danced with the tribe for a while.  I continued my conversation with Linda and several of the tribal leaders until about 8:30 and then we decided to go home. Dennis:  Now this was 1991? Jerry Sittser:  1991 September 27.  Dennis:   And you were there with your wife and four children plus your own mom. Jerry Sittser:   My mom came for the weekend.  She and my wife were going to go dress shopping for a new dress for a solo performance she was going to be doing of the Messiah in December.  Typical for my mom she brought 12 quarts of frozen blueberries packed in ice.  It was so typical for what she would do.  She was a wonderful woman, a great grandma, and a great mom.  She was very close to our family.   Dennis:  You had gone to Idaho for this field trip and you decided to head back home to Spokane at that point? Jerry Sittser:  We did.  It was dark out obviously and on a lonely stretch of highway only about 10 minutes from where the powwow was held I noticed a car coming on at a really rapid rate of speed.  It slowed down just a little bit at a curve and so I was alert to this.   Without any warning he just drove right into me.  He missed the curve and plowed head on at 85 miles per hour.  In fact it was so head on that his car cart wheeled over ours.  So it didn't roll it cart wheeled down the highway.   It was awful.  In the wake of that accident as soon as I could I collected myself.  I was not injured seriously just bruised and that sort of thing.  I looked around and knew that it was really bad.  My mother who was sitting way in the back was seriously injured.  My four year old I could tell was dead.  She had a broken neck.  I tried to get a pulse and did mouth to mouth but it was hopeless.  I could tell my wife, Linda, was catastrophically injured, too.   My other kids were dazed, crying, and screaming.  It was chaotic.  All the windows were broken out of the car.  My door could open and I got the kids out who were mobile.  Katherine was eight and John was six and David was two.  I found out later that John had a broken femur and some other injuries but the other two kids were just bruised but okay.  I went back to try to tend to Linda.  I got a pulse but knew she wasn't going to live because her injuries were just too severe.  I did mouth to mouth on Diana Jane but she was gone.   I got to my mother only briefly but then something beautiful happened.  You find these flowers in the midst of ashes almost right away.  People began to stop.  The scene was chaotic.  The driver survived but his wife who was nine months pregnant died and the unborn baby died as well.  There were five casualties in the accident.   Some guy got out of the car and went over to my mother and reached out to her through the broken window and held her hand and stroked her arm until she died.  That is a beautiful act of grace to me.  It was very courageous of him in the midst of that chaos and that violence to break through that with mercy and love.  I wish I knew who that man was because I'd like to thank him. Bob:  What a surreal moment that had to be for you.  Almost like you've stepped out of time and space and your body…I don't know how to describe it other than just surreal.Jerry Sittser:  Yes, it was surreal.  I have such vivid memories to this day.   Nothing has faded at all.  First it was a nightmare to have those kinds of memories.  It's not so bad anymore because it's been integrated into the landscape of my life.  It doesn't haunt me like it used to.   We waited a long time before emergency vehicles came and they took over.  I got to a phone as soon as I could to call my sister to say something unspeakable had happened.  After about an hour the survivors, namely my three children Katherine, John and David and I were all put in the same emergency vehicle and were transported another hour up to Coeur d'Alene for emergency care.   That one hour was probably the most significant hour in my life.  It really was the turning point for me.  It was like a wormhole from one reality to another.  Honestly it's the most accurate way I can describe it.  Time ceased to have meaning.  It could have been ten years.  That period of time is frozen in my memory and it was probably the most rational moment I've ever had in my life.  It was quiet.  John was sedated.  The other kids were whimpering but it was quiet.  The emergency personnel didn't say anything and I had one hour to just be.  I thought about the accident and the scene.  I knew what had happened and I thought of what would be as a result.   I considered the task set before me.  I had a burden that was placed on my shoulders and in a sense a divine mandate that said you draw a line in the sand right now and decide what you want to be and what you want to come from this experience.  And I did.  I said, I want the bleeding to stop right here.  This is it.  I don't want to do things that are going to set in motion more and more pain and more and more bleeding that could go on for generations.   I made the basic decision right then and there that I was going to somehow by the grace of God respond and live this story out in a way that was going to be redemptive.  Redemption was really the key term that just kept coming back to me.  Redemption.  This is not the final word.   Dennis:  I want out listeners to hear what's wrapped up in your statement because you make this statement in your book.  You said loss does not have to be the defining moment in our lives instead the defining moment can be our response to that loss.  It's not what happens to us that matters so much as what happens in us.  You really believe that don't you? Jerry Sittser:  I do believe it by the grace of God.  I didn't write a self help book here.  I don't believe that.  The ultimate message of Christianity is not self help it is God's help.  Through a long and often difficult journey I really did discover that the Christian faith is true.   Grace really is available to get us through these hard stretches of life.  My response of choosing to trust the grace of God was far more significant than the event itself.  You know my kids would say the same thing today.  They would say that the accident is actually not that significant.  It is what's come out of it that is significant.  Bob:  What seems remarkable to me as you describe this hour of rational clarity is the absence of grief.  I think of someone living through what you have just lived through and I would think this person would be a grieving basket case.  It's not that you didn't experience grief.   Jerry Sittser:  No, I did. Bob:  Do you think this was kind of a shock response or was this the grace of God giving you this moment of clarity to prepare you for what was ahead?  Jerry Sittser:  I suppose you could say there was some shock involved in it but Bob, there was something more than that honestly.  I look back on it this day with a sense of wonder.  It wasn't simply that I had not absorbed the significance.   I knew what had happened to me.   It wasn't even as if I was holding it off.  I think God gave me that gift.  I think He gave me one hour to decide what I was going to believe and where I was going to head and I walked out of that emergency vehicle in Coeur d'Alene into a different world.  I collapsed.  It was hard going for a long time.   Bob:  Can I ask the two of you did you experience anything similar to that, Barbara, in going through what you went through with the death of Molly? Barbara:  I think we did but it wasn't anywhere near as dramatic as what Jerry was describing.  We watched our kids and as we watched them respond to the news that Molly was not going to live they had a choice to make in those first moments.  I think those early moments of facing tragedy and loss in a crisis like that are the defining moments.   They decided they were going to believe God.  They were going to believe that He was good and that He was sufficient and that He knew what He was doing.  That really set the course for them from there on out.  So I think in the moment of crisis I think God gives us that opportunity to choose.  Do we believe Him or not?   Jerry Sittser:    I like what Barbara said about defining a course because that's different from solving all the problems.  When you suffer a loss whether it be divorce or terminal illness or loss of a job it can be other things that are a little less dramatic and tragic.  I think we do have the power to set a course and that makes a huge difference over a long period of time.  It doesn't solve all the problems but it gets us going in a particular direction.  I think I did that by the grace of God.   Bob:  You know people or have met people who just dissolved in their moment of pain and didn't have that rational clarity that you described.   Jerry Sittser:  I think what happens is we give some kind of tragedy more power than it deserves.  It does become the defining moment instead of the response being the defining moment.  It's the thing itself and then pretty soon it's affecting other relationships.    It's affecting life habits that we form and 20 or 30 years later that divorce or loss or whatever continues to dominate our lives.  That's what I call the second death and it's actually worse than the initial death.  Far worse than the loss of Linda and my mom and Diana Jane would have been say the loss my children would have experienced in my bitterness.  In fact I have an interesting story to tell you.   About six months or a year after the accident I got an anonymous telephone call from a young woman who said, “Mr. Sittser I want to tell you my story.  When I was a young girl my mother died of cancer and I've been in therapy for six years.  I thought to myself this is not a helpful conversation she said no let me continue my story.   “I'm in therapy not because I lost my mother but I lost my father at the same time and he is still alive. He became non functional and so overcome with grief and bitterness that I lost both parents but my dad is still alive.  She said, don't let that happen to you” and she hung up the phone.   Now she didn't give me new information but it was a wonderful reminder to me that the role I was playing was significant.  By my own attitude and spirit I was setting a course and I was giving cues to my children.   Dennis:  You are also making choices for your own life that are going to determine who you become as a man.  I think of the listeners who have eavesdropped today in terms of hearing this story.  I wonder what they are facing because all of us experience loss.  If you live long enough you will experience loss.  The Bible is a very lofty book but it's also a very gritty book that meets us in the midst of our grief.   You made a statement Jerry that I want to underline.  I really understand why a loss can become central to our lives and why the grief that surrounds it can become the defining moment.  It hurts.  It is terrible.  As you describe it it's catastrophic but I like what you did in your book.  You called us away from the focus on the circumstances to focus on the God of all grace and mercy who can bring hope and healing.  He can keep us from becoming embittered in that process.   Bob:  Barbara, in the weeks that followed in the birth and death of your granddaughter Molly you had a lot of people send you quotes and recommend articles or books.  This book was the one God used most powerfully, wasn't it? Barbara:  Yes.  It was.   There were other things, too, but this was the book that I read through that really resonated in my soul.  Jerry talked about not just the loss of death but all kinds of loss and how our identity is wrapped up in how we respond to that loss.  It was really profound in my life.   Bob:  I think both of you will be encouraged to know that we have a lot of listeners over the last several weeks who have contacted us to get a copy of Jerry's book called A Grace Disguised.  We still have copies in our FamilyLife Resource Center.   You can go to our web site FamilyLifeToday.com and find information about Jerry's book which is called A Grace Disguised:  How the Soul Grows Through Loss.  You'll find it available there along with copies of the book that you've just finished writing Barbara along with your daughter Rebecca called A Symphony in the Dark: Hearing God's Voice in Seasons of Grief.  It focuses in on the events of a year ago when your granddaughter Molly was born and lived for seven days and how your family processed that season of grief.   Again both of these books are available from us at FamilyLife Today.  Go to our web site FamilyLife Today.com.  You can order online from us if you'd like or if it's easier call 1-800-FL-TODAY.  That's 1-800-358-6329.  That's 1 800 “F”as in family “L” as in life and then the word TODAY and we can make arrangements to have whichever of these books you'd like or both of them sent out to you. We also want to take a couple of minutes and say thanks to those of you who help underwrite this daily radio program.  Your financial support of FamilyLife Today is what keeps this program on the air.  It helps defray the costs of production and syndication to keep this program on more than a thousand radio stations and outlets all across the country.  It is available online and audio streaming and as a podcast.  Thanks to those of you who help make that happen by making donations on a regular basis for the ministry of FamilyLife Today.   This month if you're able to help with a donation of any amount to the ministry of FamilyLife Today we have a CD we'd like to send you.  This CD features a conversation we had several months ago with Nancy Leigh DeMoss the popular author and speaker and the host of the daily radio program, Revive Our Hearts.  Our conversation was on the subject of forgiveness and what the Bible says about forgiveness.  Nancy has written a great book called Choosing Forgiveness and I know that this is a subject that a lot of people struggle with.  Jerry you addressed it in your book A Grace Disguised.   This CD is our way of saying thank you to you this month when you support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount.  If you're making that donation online at FamilyLifeToday.com all you have to do is type the word “forgive” in the key code box on the donation form and we'll know to send a copy of the CD to you. Or call toll-free 1 800 FLTODAY.   Make your donation over the phone and just ask for the CD on forgiveness or the CD with Nancy Leigh DeMoss.  Again we are happy to send it to you and we do appreciate your support of this ministry.  Thanks for partnering with us.   Tomorrow we're going to talk about life getting back to normal after a catastrophic event like the one Jerry Sittser experienced almost two decades ago now.  We'll find out if life ever does get back to normal or if it's just a new normal.  I hope you can join us for that.   I want to thank our engineer today Keith Lynch and our entire broadcast production team on behalf of our host Dennis Rainey I'm Bob Lepine.  We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today.  Hope for tomorrow. © 2009 FamilyLife   We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com     

A Grace Disguised (Part 1) - Jerry SittserA Grace Disguised (Part 2) - Jerry SittserA Grace Disguised (Part 3) - Jerry SittserFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Walking By Faith Through Irreversible Loss Guest:                         Jerry Sittser From the series:          A Grace Disguised (Day 2 of 3)  Bob:  Jerry Sittser understands grief and loss in a profound way.   He and three of his children escaped from a car accident that took the life of his wife, his mother and one of his four children.  How long would it take for someone to recover from a loss like that?  Here's Jerry Sittser.  Jerry Sittser:  Through a long and often difficult journey I really did discover the Christian faith is true.  Grace really is available to get us through these hard stretches of life.  The ultimate message of Christianity is not self help.  It is God's help.   Bob:  This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, July 7th.  Our host is the President of FamilyLife Dennis Rainey and I'm Bob Lepine.  Jerry Sittser says when the landscape of life has been permanently altered God's grace is there to help you make some sense of the loss and to give you peace.   Welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Thanks for joining us.  We have been talking a lot not just this week but in recent weeks about the subject of loss.  We're trying to help listeners understand that your responses to the loss you will experience in life will help shape you and your family and your marriage and your whole life. Dennis:  It will.  In fact, our guest on today's program is really the result of losses that Barbara and I have experienced in recent days.  In fact I want to welcome Barbara to the broadcast again.   Barbara Rainey:  Thank you. Dennis:  Thanks for joining us again Sweetheart and thanks for recommending Jerry Sittser's book A Grace Disguised. Jerry I want to welcome you to our broadcast.  Welcome back. Jerry Sittser:  Thank you.  It's a privilege.  Jerry is the professor of theology at Whitworth University in Spokane Washington.  As we mentioned earlier Jerry's book was used in our family as it was recommended to Barbara by a friend.  She started reading it after our daughter Rebecca and her husband, Jake, lost their daughter Molly after only seven days.  This book really helped Barbara and me as well as Jake and Rebecca process through how the soul processes grief.   We mentioned earlier how you lost your wife, your mom and your daughter in a tragic car wreck in 1991.  That really is the genesis of this book.  I have to ask you a big picture question.  If you could summarize what you think God is up to when He allows us to experience grief what would you say?  You've experienced it on a profound level that few people will ever experience it.  What do you think He's up to in grief? Jerry Sittser:  I am not sure I can answer that question in a word.  That's a very difficult question actually.  I think over all I would say that God is in the business of reclaiming people who have turned away from Him.  He created us in His image.  He created us to be gloriously beautiful people who participate in the divine glory.  The perfect relationship that exists between Father, Son and Holy Spirit and we've turned away from that.   That divine image has been marred and made perverse.  He wants not simply to save us.  He wants to reclaim us and restore us and one of the ways that happens like it or not is through suffering.  I honestly think suffering is necessary in the Christian faith.   It happens in lots of different ways some we can choose like the suffering that comes when we deny our appetites and practice self discipline.  John Calvin called it self denial.   Sometimes that suffering is imposed upon us through some kind of loss or tragedy.   Either way we need some kind of suffering not masochistically but honestly realistic to become the holy people God wants us to be and to draw us into a vital relationship with Him.   Bob:   Grief that we experience when we go through a loss to what extent are we in…I don't want to use the word control but to what extent do we have power over that grief?  And to what extent does the grief have power over us?  Do you know what I'm asking here? Jerry Sittser:  Well, I'll start by saying this.  I don't think God causes these things as if He were some kind of divine manipulator who hovers above the ground and zaps us with cancer or divorce or job loss or loss of portfolio or loss of a loved one.  I think that is a very poor mechanistic view of the sovereignty of God.  I think God is in it.  God's sovereignty is in it.  I don't think God causes it in that kind of crude kind of way.  I will say God uses it.  God's in it in that sense.   Our choice is whether we're going to respond to the work the sanctifying work God is trying to do in our lives.  Does grief and loss have power?  Of course it does.  It can change the entire course of our lives.   But I think the greater power is the way we respond by faith to God's work in our lives.  It's a hard thing to say.  It sounds so easy and so trivial.  Oh you know God's trying to sanctify us.  I almost resist saying it because I don't what it to come across kind of cheap as if I'm quoting a Bible answer or a Bible verse and that verse is going to make everything right.  Well, God works all things out for good for those who love Him.  I mean that is a true statement.  I believe that with all my heart but I also believe that is extraordinarily hard to work out in normal life.   Bob:  There were times when I'm sure the grief had to be…I don't know if I want to say overwhelming or just so compelling that you felt powerless against it.   Jerry Sittser:  Of course.  I think any true catastrophic loss leads to that.  That's the difference between a normal loss from which you'll recover like you're high school athlete and you break your leg and lose the season.  It's a big loss and it's hard but you're going to get your leg back again and you might be able to play another season.   There's a big difference between that kind of loss though significant and the loss of a spouse or the loss of your health.  I call those irreversible losses and I'll tell you they have power.  We're fools not to acknowledge the power they have.   Barbara:  Interestingly I was with our daughter Rebecca a couple of weeks ago and she and her husband, Jacob, had renewed hope.  They had gotten pregnant with baby #2 and then at 14 weeks gestation the baby died.  She had to deliver this still born baby at 16 weeks.  Go through the labor and delivery which was traumatic in and of itself but as I was there for a week and we had many really wonderful conversations.   During that time one of the things Rebecca said to me that was really profound was we're not as fragile as we think we are.  We feel like in these really hard times that we won't survive but she said I've learned that we can handle a lot more than we think that we can handle.  Because God strengthens us to go through these things that he takes us through.   She said I'm just amazed that I can go through this and still live.  Because you feel like you won't live.  You feel like you're going to die because of the burden of the grief.  She said I've learned we are stronger than we think we are.  We aren't as fragile as people as we imagined that we would be when looking at a situation like that. Bob:  Did you feel like you weren't going to live in the days that followed your wife's death? Jerry Sittser:  No I think that maybe that's a little too extreme.  I knew somewhere deep inside my soul that God was still God.  I had to live in this dynamic tension between acknowledging the severity of the loss on all levels.  Not just intellectual but emotional.   Grief has its way.   It is corrosive.  It gets to you.  You can push it away for a month or a few months.  You can work hard.  You can develop bad habits and do whatever you want to run away but eventually it's going to get its way.  It's going to tell you that those people are gone and they are never going to come back again.  So that's one side of things.   Acknowledging the severity of the loss on the other hand also requires us to live by faith and to recognize there is a bigger story being told.  God is somehow in this even if we don't see how He is.  Even if we don't have any evidence at our immediate disposal that God is God and God is good somehow we have to believe that that is still the case.    You have to live in that tension.  If you pretend it's not severe it's like painting over mold.  You don't want to give that mold too much power either.   Recognize that you can get rid of that mold and put on fresh paint and make that wall beautiful again.  It's a very delicate process to navigate through the months and sometimes the years involved. Bob:  So you're not saying to somebody keep a stiff upper lip and deny the anguish of your soul in the midst of grief. Jerry Sittser:  I don't think so.  I don't think the Bible teaches that either.   You look at the book of Psalms and fifty percent or about 75 of them are devoted to the Psalms of lament…The anguish of the soul in the face of unanswerable questions or so it seems at the time and unimaginable loss and grief…the trail of enemies and this kind of thing.   We have a kind of emotional handbook right in the Bible that's acknowledging the severity of these kind of losses.  I think it's not wise to pretend that they don't exist or they aren't serious.  They don't have the final word.  That's what a Christian believes.  The final word is the Resurrection.   Dennis:  Jerry, you describe a scene in the mortuary where you visited the three caskets and you asked to have them opened.  You were there alone for about an hour.  You said that point ushered you into a darkness.  Describe what took place in that setting in the mortuary? Jerry Sittser:  Well, it's difficult.  You have to use images because language just fails as it does to all people who've gone through some kind of severe loss.  I felt like I was floating just in the universe and utterly cut off and alienated.  I looked around to see billions of stars.  The world seemed like a cold impersonal place.  It was really an awful experience for me.  But it also turned out to be a significant turning point for me too.   That very night or a few nights later I had a kind of waking dream.  It was a dream but it was not like a typical dream at all.  It was very vivid and real to me.  It is to this day.  In this dream I was chasing frantically after the sun that was slowly setting in the west.  I remember as I was running that there was the frantic panicked terrifying feeling.  It was as if that sun beat me to the horizon it would never come back to me again.   Finally the sun did sink below the horizon and I stopped exhausted and looked with a sense of foreboding to the darkness from the east that was sweeping over me.  Then I awoke from the dream and I felt a kind of extastential darkness.  It was if I was going to be in this darkness for the rest of my life.  It was really a terrible feeling.   I told a cousin this dream a few days later and he reminded me of a poem written by John Donne a very famous 17th century Anglican poet.  In the poem Donne says that on a flat map east and west are far removed from each other.  The farther east you go the farther removed you are from the west.  But on a globe if you go east you eventually meet west.   Then I talked to my sister about this and she said that's the cue for you Jerry.  If you keep running west to try to stay in the fiery warmth of the setting sun you will actually stay in the darkness longer.  But if you have the courage to plunge into that darkness heading east even if you're hanging by one thin thread of faith all the sooner will you come to the sunrise.  That was really a cue for me to head into darkness and let grief have its way with me assuming that I would all the sooner come to the sunrise.   Bob:  You did have a period of darkness in the days that followed.  There was depression and daily weeping.   As we sit here 18 years later talking about trusting in God in the midst of those days it was a hard journey you were on. Jerry Sittser:  It was a hard journey.  There were lots of tears and lots of tears of my kids.  Actually the hardest period was after the tears stopped.   The tears kind of turned to brine.  It became thick and bitter.  Almost like molasses.   It didn't flow quite so easily.  That was darker still.  This is hard work.  It is for anybody who goes through a severe loss.   Dennis:   Yes and watching our daughter go through this both Barbara and I as parents have felt so powerless apart from our prayers.  There really are no words to be able to share.  Our daughter found a lot of healing and help in writing a blog.  I'll never forget one of her blog entries where she described mourning the loss of her daughter and finding comfort by crawling up into the crib and weeping for the loss of her baby girl.   As those who peer in other people's lives coach us a bit on how we can keep an appropriate distance and not be trite in what we say.  What should we say and do for that person who is entering or is in the valley of the shadow of death? Jerry Sittser:   I would say presence, consistency, patience, and symbolic gestures.  I have a young friend—well, she's not so young any more—who was the accompanist to Linda's voice students when we lived in Iowa and she has sent me a long letter and card on the anniversary of the accident for 18 years recalling incidences, sharing life and expressing sympathy.  She's never too syrupy.  I find that kind of gesture profoundly meaningful.   When we aren't affected by loss in the dailyness of life it's easy to think that after two or three months people should be getting on with the business of life because we are getting on with the business of life.  But for those who are affected in a primary kind of way they are the ones who have suffered the loss and whose landscape of life is permanently altered they are living in that for a long period of time in one sense for the rest of their lives.   Now their perspective is going to change over time.  Mt. Rainier is always 14,410 feet.   It looks a lot bigger when you're a mile away than when you are 50 miles away.  The size never changes.  Our perspective can change over time admittedly so I think that dailyness, consistency, presence and those symbolic gestures are probably the best we can do.   Then simply pick up on cues.  The cues like when they are ready to talk.  Be ready to listen.  When they really feel like they are ready to receive a word then you give it but never before that.   Dennis:  Yes. Jerry Sittser:  And what you don't want to do is use words to try to somehow push the loss and its significance away.  Sometimes words can actually exacerbate the problem rather than help the problem.  I mean Job's three friends did their best work when they just shut their mouths for a week and sat with Job on that heap of ashes.   Bob:  Barbara were there people in your life or in Jake and Rebecca's lives who did some of those same things like symbolic gestures that Jerry is talking about.   Barbara:  Yes, there have been some remarkable young men and women friends of Jacob and Rebecca's who have done things that I wouldn't have thought to do.   On the very first Easter after Molly died one of their friends brought an Easter basket that was pink with pink candy and a pink bunny and bow and left it on their front porch and said Happy Easter.  It would have never occurred to me to do that but it was a powerful statement of love.  They didn't stay themselves.  They just left it there.   So there have been those kinds of things that people have thought to do and what we've noticed and learned by watching them is if you have an idea of something like that act on it.  Because so often I think we think of an idea and think well that might not be a good thing to do.   The people who have encouraged Jacob and Rebecca the most are the ones who have had the thought to write them a note or have had the thought to drop off the Easter basket.  There have been other things too that they've thought of and acted on it. Bob:  Jerry I hear Barbara's story about the Easter basket and I think to myself boy, I don't know that I'd want to do that.  It's almost like saying here's a reminder on Easter that you lost your child nine months ago… Barbara:  They know it anyway. Jerry Sittser:  As if they aren't thinking the same thing.  Are you kidding me? Barbara:  Of course they think about it. Jerry Sittser:  We did a lot of things as a family, too.  We always observe the anniversary of the accident and at key milestones we'd have dinner parties and I'd invite our key community of friends over and we'd observe it and I'd thank them.   My wife Linda would have been 60 in April and I talked to all of my kids and we kind of laughed about what it would be like for them to have a 60 year old mother.  We have been pretty mindful of these important milestones along the way even after all these years.  It's not at all bitter any more.  We have a lot of good stories that have happened in these last 18 years.  It's been very rich and meaningful for us but we still are mindful of this loss and these important dates and milestones.    Dennis:  Sometimes the grief will be expressed in a phone conversation or in person or in a letter or email where it's clear that the person is truly grieving.  At that moment they are really hurting.   Recently I received an email from our daughter and her husband just around what they were experiencing and I started weeping.  I just wept.  I thought what can I say?  I just wrote back an email that said I'm weeping with you, Dad.Jerry Sittser:  Yes.    Dennis:  I think many times in our desire to help as you just exhorted us Jerry it's back to that statement—I have regretted my speech but never my silence.  Sometimes the gift of presence and being there and letting someone know you are praying for them and you are there for them may be all that's needed in that moment.  Never underestimate the power of a human being touching another life at a point of tremendous trauma and hurt in a catastrophic loss like you experienced. Bob:  And coming alongside with a gift like a copy of Jerry's book and you can say you may not want to read this right now but at the right time I believe this book will minister to you in a profound way.   We have copies of Jerry's book called A Grace Disguised: How the Soul Grows Through Loss in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center.  We would love to send you a copy.  Go to our web site FamilyLife Today.com.  Again that's FamilyLifeToday.com.  You can order online from us if you'd like or if it's easier call 1-800-FL-TODAY.  That's 1-800-358-6329.   Let me also mention a book you have written Barbara along with your daughter Rebecca when your granddaughter Molly was born and lived for seven days before she died.  That book is called A Symphony in the Dark: Hearing God's Voice in Seasons of Grief.  You can find more information about that book on our web site as well FamilyLife Today.com.  Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY.  That's 1 800 “F”as in family “L” as in life and then the word TODAY.   We also want to take a couple of minutes and say thanks to those of you who support the ministry of FamilyLife Today by making donations on a regular basis.  We are listener supported.  The costs associated with producing and syndicating are underwritten by those of you who contact us to make a donation to keep us on the air and to support the other ministries of FamilyLife.   We do appreciate that support and in fact this month we'd like to say thank you if you're able to support the ministry with a donation of any amount.  We sat down not long ago with Nancy Leigh DeMoss the author of a number of books and the host of the daily radio program Revive Our Hearts.  We talked to her about the issue of forgiveness and what the Bible has to say about choosing to forgive.  Nancy has written a great book called Choosing Forgiveness and if you'd like to receive a CD of our conversation with her on this subject you can make a donation this month of any amount to the ministry of FamilyLife Today and simply request the CD as a thank you gift.   If you're making that donation online at FamilyLifeToday.com all you have to do is type the word “forgive” in the key code box on the donation form and we'll know to send a copy of the CD to you. Or call toll-free 1 800 FLTODAY.  Make your donation over the phone and just ask for the CD of our conversation with Nancy Leigh DeMoss.  Again we are happy to send it to you and we do appreciate your support of this ministry.  Thanks for partnering with us.   Tomorrow we'll talk about how we can be used by God to bring comfort to others as they experience loss and hope you can be with us as we continue our conversation with Jerry Sittser.I want to thank our engineer today Keith Lynch and our entire broadcast production team on behalf of our host Dennis Rainey I'm Bob Lepine.  We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today.  Hope for tomorrow. © 2009 FamilyLife   We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com     

A Grace Disguised (Part 1) - Jerry SittserA Grace Disguised (Part 2) - Jerry SittserA Grace Disguised (Part 3) - Jerry SittserFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Forgiveness Guest:                         Jerry SittserFrom the series:          A Grace Disguised  (Day 3 of 3) Bob:   Proverbs 25:11 says, “A Word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in a setting of silver.” When someone has experienced loss we need to be careful that our words are fitly spoken.  Here's Jerry Sittser… Jerry:  Sometimes words can actually exacerbate the problem rather than help the problem.  I mean, Job's three friends did their best work when they just shut their mouths for a week and sat with Job on that heap of ashes.  The cue is, when they're ready to talk, then you're ready to listen. When they really feel like they are ready to receive a word, then you give it, but never before that.  And what you don't want to do is use words to try to somehow push the loss and its significance away. Bob:  This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, July 8th.  Our host is the President of FamilyLife Dennis Rainey and I'm Bob Lepine.   We'll here today how God shows up in the midst of loss.  And about how we can show up, too.   And welcome to FamilyLife Today and thanks for joining us.  Just as I was walking in here, I got an email from our mutual friend, Dr. Michael Easley, who is the pastor at Fellowship Bible Church in Franklin, TN, and Michael sent me a prayer that he had written to send to a couple who had experienced the loss of a child a year ago today.  The child had lived two months and unexpectedly died.  And Michael wrote this prayer for them.   He said, I pray for you today that your memories will be sweet, that your hearts will be calmed, that you will find a non-anxious presence.  That you will choose to trust and see good when there is nothing for sure, that you will grieve, but not as those who have no hope, that you will find comfort and mercy in places others may never know.   That your “why” questions will be replaced with a confidence in knowing that, He knows, and that's enough.  We love you and ask Him to pour mercy, kindness and hope into your hearts.  He does indeed know you and love you no matter what your experience may try to tell you. Dennis:  Bob, you know as I listen to those words, I think, how many people listening to this broadcast right now have experienced loss, some kind of major loss in their lives, in the past 5 to 10 years.   As I said earlier, if you live long enough, you will experience loss.  In fact, life is really made up of a lot of losses as we lose our childhood, and move into adulthood.  Some of those losses look good at the time but some of the losses aren't easily figured out, in fact, some are never figured out on this side of heaven.  We've had a guest with us, Dr. Jerry Sittser who has helped us better understand the process of grieving through his book, A Grace Disguised. Welcome back. Jerry:  Thank you, it's good to be here. Dennis:  I mentioned earlier, that Barbara had recommended this book to me after our daughter, Rebecca and her husband Jake, experienced the loss of their daughter after seven days of life.  And Barbara joins us on the broadcast as well.   Sweetie, welcome. Barbara:  Thank you, glad to be here. Dennis:  In fact, I hadn't asked you this question, sweetheart.  As you read this book, what was it about Jerry's book that most ministered to you, and why have you recommended it to so many people? Barbara:  Well, I wish I had my copy in front of me, I tried to find it this morning, and I can't find where I set that thing.  But at any rate it's all underlined and marked, and page corners turned back.   And one of the things I remember most vividly is early in the first few chapters, Jerry, you talk about how loss is loss and that it doesn't do any good to compare losses, and to say that this loss is worse than that loss.  Because loss brings grief and it brings pain and that grief and that pain is real and it needs to be experienced.  It is what it is.  To try to explain it or measure it and say it's not really that bad or it's worse than this, doesn't really make any difference in the long run.  I think we are so prone to wanting to measure and figure these things out.   The other piece I remember real vividly is a later chapter in the book, it talks about how our identity is changed by grief and loss and how so much of who we are is wrapped up in our identity with that thing or that person or that ability we have lost.  Whether it's a divorce or a death, or whether it's losing the ability through physical illness and how that personal identity is transformed through the process of loss and grief.  I thought that was really helpful and profound. Jerry:  I call that the amputation of the familiar self. Barbara:  That's what it was, yes. Jerry:  It's extraordinarily hard, because we are really defined by our location, our relationships, our work, these things provide sources of identity and when one of those is lopped off, it requires a pretty long and significant period of adjustment to figure out who you are in the wake of the loss of that thing, when that thing defined you to some degree.   We have these phantom pains, you know.  Phantom pains are the leg telling you it's still there when you look down and it's not there anymore.  That's what an amputation does and we will go through a long period of time when we feel those phantom pains of still feeling like we are this person, we belong to this person, we do this particular line of work and this kind of thing, even though we don't anymore. Bob:  How long was it for you in the weeks that followed the car accident where your wife and your daughter and your mother all were killed?  For how many months did you have this kind of reflexive phantom impulse to say, oh, I ought to call her and share this with her and then realize she's not there? Jerry:  Well, for a long time.  Reflexive is the right word, too.   It is like a reflex, where it's programmed in you, so automatic.  When after twenty years, when you call your spouse once or twice  a day just to check in, “Hi, honey, how's it going and what are you doing, what are the kids doing, or how's work going,” that sort of thing.  You can't help but have your mind go there; just automatically, it happens a long time.  I would say after those months even though it wasn't as reflexive as it once was, it still was an impulse in me.   And to tell you the truth, Bob, it still is, after 18 years.  Now, I don't say that in despairing or bitter kind of way.  I still think about those people every day.  There's not a day that goes by, I don't.  And I don't think that's a bad thing.  I don't like words like recovery; I think that gives us a kind of vain expectation as if we can get back to something we had before.   Dennis:  Some months before our granddaughter, Molly, died, I received an email from the gentleman who heads up FamilyLife in New Zealand.  His name is Andy Bray, he and his wife Nikki have given leadership to FamilyLife there for more than a dozen years.  Their daughter who was 15 or 16 years of age, at the time, was killed in a tragic flood in New Zealand along with 5 or 6 other young people who were all first class Christian leaders.   It was a reward trip for these young people, and I received that email some months before Molly's death.  And I have to tell you that in those seven days of Molly's life, I kept thinking, that has to be harder, a harder thing to bear, to have had a relationship with your daughter for 16 years and now, to say goodbye.   I mean it's one thing for my daughter and son-in-law to have a relationship for seven days and say goodbye, and the more I tried to work this equation out in my mind, I came to the conclusion that it was futility.  It was a waste of time.  Am I wrong? Jerry:  No, you are right.  Comparing loss is vain.  It's like comparing headaches; I mean people will describe their headaches in lots of different ways.  Well, how are you going to determine which one is worse?  I mean it's silly in the first place.   I put it this way; all losses are bad, just bad in different ways.  How can you compare say the loss of a spouse to death and the loss of a spouse to divorce?  How can you compare the loss of a child to death or say the loss of a child to waywardness, they are both bad.  And they stand on their own and we need to treat them as unique and sacred in and of themselves.   I tell you that was one of the reasons why I hesitated to write this book.  My story is kind of sensational in a way, I mean this big event and three people are killed in this drunken driving accident. Everybody sort of gasps and I became almost an instant celebrity in Spokane overnight and I didn't like that.  And the reason why I didn't like that was because I was so profoundly aware of other kinds of losses that were as severe  as mine, just different, and maybe not visible and maybe not as prone to receive sympathy from other people.  Let me give you an example, some guy came up to me a couple of years after the accident and said I've resented you for two years.  And I said, “why, I hardly know you”, and he said, “your tragedy turned you into a hero, my tragedy has only brought more pain.  My wife left me for another woman,” he said, “and I've had to deal with catastrophic consequences, but I'm nobody's hero.”   That was very sobering for me to hear, it wasn't very nice for him to say, but it was very sobering for me to hear, recognizing that there are lots of losses that do not receive very much public attention.   If they do, it's not with sympathy.  I hesitated to write the book and when I decided to write it, I inserted Chapter Two:  Whose Loss is Worse, just to protect myself from being made some kind of false celebrity because of my loss.  There are lots of ways to suffer, lots of ways to experience pain, and mine is only one.  And there are lots of things I don't know, I don't know what it means to experience, let's say the long term effects of terminal illness or injuries from which a person cannot recover.   Bob:  You know, it was interesting, Barbara, to hear you reflect back on what had an impact on you as you read Jerry's book.  I asked Maryann last night, the same question.  I said what was most impactful as you read the book, and she said probably the chapter on forgiveness.   I thought it's interesting, I don't know that we make a connection between grief and loss and forgiveness, but you see those as being intimately tied together, don't you? Jerry:  I do, and I titled that chapter:  Forgive and Remember, instead of forgive and forget.  I don't think it's possible and I don't think it's healthy to forget anything.  But I think forgiveness can change the way we remember things.   Especially when we've had pain inflicted to us, spouses betrayed us, somebody's done some violent act, say raped us or something like that, or someone has embezzled money and that destroyed our business.  There are lots of ways we suffer loss when the results are catastrophic and somebody willed to do harm to us, directly or indirectly. Bob:  In your case, it was a drunk driver who swerved across the road, right? Jerry:  And smashed into us.  Now he didn't intend to do that, his harm was not malicious in the sense that he was out to kill three members of my family.  But his irresponsible decisions did lead to that and required me to forgive. Bob:  What did you have to go through to get to forgiveness? Jerry:  I think there were two phases to it; the more immediate and obvious one was the trial when the drunken driver was acquitted on a technicality and he walked away.  That only added kind of a bitter cast to an already difficult journey in forgiving somebody who had had such a significant impact on my life.  I learned in the process that forgiveness is not a singular act, it's a process you go through.  And I think the most significant decision we make, is to say, we want to forgive.  Not that we forgive at the time, but we want to go through the process where forgiveness begins to take place.  And we get to the point where we can wish the person well and pray for them. Bob:  You have heard some amazing, well; you've gotten some amazing feedback to the book.  Letters, you were saying earlier, not a week goes by that you don't hear from someone who God has used your story and your book profoundly in their lives.   Jerry:  Yes, but it's a strange thing, there's a kind of an otherness to this book.  I actually brought it with me.  I've reread it once since I wrote it and that was when the new edition came out about five years ago, about the only time I ever cracked it.   I skimmed it a little bit yesterday and it was a strange experience, because it's almost as if I didn't write it, it has a quality of otherness to it.   As if it's not quite mine, I think the closest it would come would be the way that parents feel about their children.  Is that those children are so much a part of you but when you look at them and get to know them you realize they're so other than you, too.  And that's how I feel about this book.  Dennis:  You did tell a story before we came in the studio of a letter you have received from a woman who had a brother who was murdered.   Jerry:  And this was after 28 years.  And through those 28 years of suffering she described it as being very harsh, very hard.  She feels like she lost her mother permanently in the wake of her brother's murder and this sort of thing.   She decided that she needed to forgive the murderer of her brother, so she did research, found out where he was in the prison system and asked if she could have permission to visit him.  He sort of coldly gave her permission, and so she went to see him and God gave her two words, on the ride to see him, and these are very powerful to me. The first is, you're never beyond the reach of the grace of God, and the second is you can always become the man God wants you to be, even if you're in prison.  And she met this man, forgave him, he broke down and sobbed, came to know the Lord and their relationship continues to this day.   That's a powerful example of forgiveness, but it's a little troubling to me too, because it doesn't always happen quite that easily.  Sometimes it is a process.  It's a journey and you have to go through phases of forgiveness to get to the point where you can really wish the person well and trust them to the good hand of God and pray for them Dennis:  Your story and just what you said reminds me of Romans 12: 18, and these are powerful in my life because there's a person I've had to forgive, more than one obviously over my lifetime, but one where this is very real to me.  “If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.  Beloved never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God for it is written, vengeance is mine, I will repay says the Lord.”   It's interesting, Jerry, as I have very imperfectly attempted to be obedient to that passage and have prayed for not only to be able to forgive and to be at peace.  As I thought about the wrath of God I've prayed for that person to be delivered from the wrath of God, because I know what that means.  It potentially could mean an eternity separated from God.   Jerry:  Oh, what a terrible burden a person has to bear for wrongdoing.   I would always choose to be the victim of wrongdoing, than to be the perpetrator of wrongdoing.   Early on that came to me, by the way, is I thought about what it would mean for me to change positions.  And I didn't want that at all.  You know, ironically, we like to claim justice.  We really want, we think we want to live in a fair world, but I'm not sure we want the world to be fair.  On the one hand maybe some bad things wouldn't happen to us that have happened to us over the years.   But grace isn't fair either and I'd rather live in a world that is unfair, knowing that I am going to take some hits along the way, as I have, and will continue to experience if I know that grace is available to me too, because  the unfairest thing in the world is grace.   I think about our Lord who had to wear a crown of thorns, the only one in all of human history who was not deserving of that crown of thorns, so that we could wear a crown of honor.  Dennis:  Hmm, what a picture Jerry:  There is no fairness in that at all. Dennis:  And the reality of that is that it all occurred through suffering.  Jerry:  It all occurred through suffering.  In fact, that is the answer to the problem of evil.  This is where the Christian answer to evil is so paradoxical and so glorious and beautiful.   The Bible's answer to suffering, is suffering, the suffering of God in human flesh.  God chooses out of his pure love for fallen humanity, to actually enter into the world.  And instead of entering it with a glorious birth, announced and heralded by sounding trumpets, he was born into a pathetic stable.  He grows up in obscurity.  He is a carpenter's son, he never gets a first rate education.  He didn't really get an education at all, except in the synagogue. He has a three year ministry, and then he suffers death on a cross.  We are talking about God doing this.  This is the Bible's answer to suffering, God's suffering and then the triumph in the resurrection. Dennis:  The apostle Peter says this about that suffering of Christ, “Beloved do not be surprised at the fiery trial which comes upon you  to test you as though something strange were happening, but rejoice, in so far as you share in Christ's sufferings, that you may be able to rejoice and be glad when His glory is revealed.” Jerry:  And Paul writes, “More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope.”  This is one of the strange things that's occurred in our own experience, is a rejoicing in the experience. Not because we're glad it happened, we'll never be that, bad is always bad, but because of what's come as a result. Bob:  You are talking about what is come in your own life, your own experience of God's grace in the midst of all of this.  But also, what has come through you in the book that you have written, A Grace Disguised:  How the Soul Grows through Loss.  God has used powerfully in the lives of folks sitting around this table and tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of folks who have read the book.  And God's used it in a great way to minister to them in their own sense of grief and loss.  Jerry:  But I will say, that no book, however, well read or however life-changing will ever justify, explain or excuse the pain that was visited upon us.  These are separate things altogether.  I don't like it when people sort of explain something because of the good outcome.  Joseph really gave us the right formula here, you meant it for evil, God worked it out for good, but the evil was still evil. Bob:  Yes, that's right and we don't want to do anything to try to minimize the reality of that, but in the comfort you've received from God you have been able to be faithful to do what 2 Corinthians 1 says, to comfort others with the comfort you've received.  And you do that through your book and we want to encourage listeners who are in the midst of a season of suffering or a season of loss to get a copy of the book, A Grace Disguised: How a Soul Grows Through Loss.  You can find out more about it online at FamilyLifeToday.com.   While you are on our web site you will also see information about Barbara Rainey's new book written with your daughter Rebecca Mutz.  It tells the story of the life, the short life, of your granddaughter Molly, who was born a year ago at this time and lived for seven days.   The book is called A Symphony in the Dark:  Hearing God's Voice in Seasons of Grief, and we do have copies of that book in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center as well.  You can get more information about it online at FamilyLifeToday.com or call toll free, 1-800 FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329.  Someone on our team will let you know how you can get either or both of these books sent to you.   We also want to be quick today to say thank you so much to those of you who help underwrite the syndication and production costs of this program, to make it possible for the program to be heard on this station and on our network of stations all across the country.  Our listeners and especially those of you who can help support this program financially, you make it possible for this program to continue and we appreciate you so much.   This month if you are able to make a donation of any amount to help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today, we'd like to say thank you by sending you a CD that features a conversation  we had not long ago with Nancy Leigh DeMoss, the author and the speaker on the daily radio program Revive our Hearts.   Nancy has written a book called Choosing Forgiveness and we wanted to explore what the Bible teaches about the subject of forgiveness with her.  That conversation is available as our way of saying thank you this month when you do make a donation to support the ministry of FamilyLife Today.   If your donation is online, you'll see a key code box on the donation form as you fill it out online.  Type the word “forgive” in the box and we'll send you the CD, or if you call 1-800-FLTODAY you can make your donation by phone and just mention that you would like the CD and we are happy to send it to you.  And again we appreciate you so much for partnering with us, here at the ministry of FamilyLife Today.   Tomorrow we are going to talk with a young woman who lives in NYC, about a different kind of loss than we have talked about already this week.   We are going to talk about being young and single, and wishing you were married, and dealing with the sense of loss that comes with that.  Carolyn Leutwiler is going to join us tomorrow, hope you can be back with us as well.   I want to thank our engineer today Keith Lynch and our entire broadcast production team on behalf of our host Dennis Rainey I'm Bob Lepine.  We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock Arkansas Help for today.  Hope for tomorrow. © 2009 FamilyLife   We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com     

A Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 1) - Bill BrightA Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 2) - Bill BrightA Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 3) - Bill BrightFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Lessons LearnedDay 1 of 3 Guest:                    Bill Bright From the series:   Reflections of Life:  A Personal Visit With Bill Bright  Bob:                Throughout his life and his ministry, Dr. Bill Bright has had a single focus – The Great Commission – that Christ would send us into all the world to preach the Gospel to all men.  Here is Dr. Bill Bright. Bill:                  The average Christian does not realize that his loved ones, neighbors, and friends, are going to hell.  Now you say – would a loving God send people to hell?  No – God has put a cross at the entrance of hell, and the only way anybody can go to hell is to reject God's love and God's forgiveness. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, February 19th.  Our host is the Executive Director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  Today we talk with the man who has made The Great Commission his life's objective, Dr. Bill Bright.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition.  It was not long ago that you and I had the opportunity to sit down and have a conversation with a Christian leader and, frankly, two years ago if you had said we would have had that opportunity in the fall of 2002, I would have said it won't happen, because the Christian leader, in this particular case, Dr. Bill Bright – well, everyone thought that he would not live much longer. Dennis:          Right, and there were a number of us who wrote Bill letters, tributes; we made phone calls.  I still remember a great conversation I had with him that I thought would be my last, and he asked me to speak at an event, and I thought, "You rascal, you've done it again.  You've gotten one more thing out of me.  You're not even going to be here then," but Bill Bright is a great man.  His life is not over.  He is showing us how to finish strong, all the way to the end. He only has about 40 percent of his lung capacity due to the disease that he has, but he's writing books, he's doing interviews, he's taking a limited number of speaking engagements and, Bob, I came to you a few months ago, and I said, "It's time we went to Orlando and sat in Bill Bright's living room and talked with him again.  He's now lived for a couple of years longer than either you or I thought he would.  Let's go find out what he's learned." Bob:                And that conversation that we had in his living room in Orlando was just a relaxed conversation where we peppered him on a variety of subjects, but it was so refreshing. Dennis:          Yeah, and it was really a sweet time.  For those who don't know who Bill Bright is, and there are some who perhaps don't – Bill is the founder and past president of Campus Crusade for Christ.  He is the author of the "Four Spiritual Laws", which has – I suppose there are billions of "Four Spiritual Laws" that have been reproduced around the world – people sharing their faith.  Bill has been used mightily by God to touch the world, to touch nations, but he also was used mightily in my own life and yours, too, Bob, and I think by the time our listeners listen to this interview, along with the next couple of days, Bill Bright will touch you deeply as well.  Let's listen to Dr. Bill Bright. Bob:                You've talked about being on your way to the grave.  You know, there are some who are surprised that we're even having this conversation today, because there was a time just a few years ago I remember hearing you and Brant Gustafson together talking about being ready for heaven and, of course, Brant is there, you're here.  How have you processed all of that over the last several years? Bill:                  Well, just before Easter a year ago, I came home from California to die.  I said to Vonette that I was choking and fainting and all the first signs of what they told me what happened at Mayo's and the Jewish Institute in Denver and my local doctor –"What you have is horrible."  He tried to get my attention, and when I received word I was dying, I said, "Praise the Lord," because, you know, you can't lose with a believer.  It's win-win.  If you die, you go to heaven; if you stay here, you keep on serving Him.  So I had begun to praise the Lord.  He thought I'd lost my sanity, and he said – then he really began to rebuke me – he said, "You have a horrible disease.  You're going to die the most horrible kind of death" – he's a heart specialist and been my doctor for 30 years – and he felt he could tell me that.  Most doctors wouldn't.  And he said, "It's worse than cancer, it's worse than heart trouble, you're just going to choke to death."                         And so I was choking, and I came home to die.  So when I got off the plane, a couple – Jack and Pearl Galpin [sp] had befriended this Russian doctor, and they insisted that she come and examine me.  Now, here's a Ph.D, a research scientist, seven years in charge at Chernobyl, and she had no place to live except the home of the Galpins, who befriended her.  So she came to live in our home, treated me three times a day, and by the end of the 30 days, I began to have new life, and I'm awed at how good I feel. Dennis:          You know, there's a story I want to just tell real quickly, because I want our listeners to know this – there's a real sense in which God used a Russian doctor in your life to keep you alive, and that really can be, I think, tied back to something you did years ago with your retirement savings.  You actually – you and Vonette – actually gave away your retirement to start an outreach in Moscow when the Iron Curtain dropped.  You gave away your retirement, and now here, at the end of your life, what does God use to bless you back, but a Russian whose country had benefited from your sacrificial act of giving, and I think, you know, that's the kind of thing that God in heaven, I think, must have a big grin about.                         He goes, "Bill Bright, you are a termite," you know, "Dennis Rainey, you are, too, but I'm going to show you what I want to do." Bill:                  Oh, He's awesome. Dennis:          I'm going to use somebody from that country to bless you. Bill:                  You know, it's interesting – Vonette and I were led by the Lord to give my retirement pension to build a New Life Training Center at Moscow State University, and one day I'm sitting in the tent 15 years later, recuperating and enjoying the Lord as we're chatting together, and it is as though the Lord said to me in a way that – no question about it – "I sent Dr. Ivanova to help you because you made the widow's mite investment in Moscow State University."                          Now, I began to sob.  I was overcome, because, frankly, there was no question what he was saying to me – that he was pleased by that.  I didn't do it for credit, I didn't make a big issue of it, and I wouldn't have brought it up if you hadn't, but you cannot outgive God, and though, as a movement, we had spent tens of millions of dollars sending Jesus films and Bibles and holding teacher convocations all over Russia and the other republics, but the Lord didn't seem to refer to that.  He referred to what I did first, and that was awesome. Dennis:          You undoubtedly have envisioned where you're going. Bill:                  Oh, heaven is awesome.   Dennis:          To your best extent – obviously, you've never been there – but you've read about it, you know the One Who resides there, you've been walking with the One Who resides there – share what you expect? Bill:                  Eyes not seen, ears not heard what God has prepared for those who love Him.  Heaven is going to be indescribably beautiful – it's not going to be, it is – and I remember as a lad, my precious, saintly mother would often say, "I can hardly wait to go to heaven."  Now, she loved her husband, my father.  She loved seven children.  She was the pillar of the community.  If anybody needed any help, they would always come to my mother.  She was truly a saint.  But I didn't understand what she was saying until I became a believer and now I look forward, with her, with great anticipation, to heaven.  Everything we experience here on earth – all the most elegant and opulent kinds of experiences – cannot compare with what awaits those who believe.                           Here's my logic – the God who spoke – and astronomers say at least 100 billion, 200 billion galaxies were flowing into space, and He holds it all together with the word of His command.  The same God became a man – the God-man, Jesus of Nazareth, died on the cross for our sins, was raised from the dead, and now lives within us, and He said, "I'm going to go to prepare a place for you, and then I'll come back and get you."                         Now, this God who created all this unbelievably beautiful, wonderful universe, you know is going to do a special creative job in preparing heaven.  Heaven is going to be the golden, golden gem of the universe, and whatever our minds can conceive of will fall infinitely short of what heaven is like. Bob:                Were you disappointed when you started getting better? Bill:                  Well, I must tell you, I was excited about going to heaven.  You know, when you heard the interview with Brant Gustafson and myself, we were on a race.  We both were looking forward to going, and we weren't sure – we were saying, "I'll beat you there." Dennis:          Yeah, well, he beat you, didn't he? Bill:                  Yeah, he did – and dear, dear Brant – he was a marvelous, wonderful friend … Dennis:          … yeah, I love him, too. Bill:                  A beloved brother – but here I am doing, in a sense, the most creative thing I've ever done.  In the last 18 months I've put almost 100 hours of the best of my 100 books and booklets on blue screen technology – video – where I can use it for interactive training of millions of people through the years long after I'm with the Lord, and Andrew Murray has been dead 150 years, is still influencing millions of Christians.  Oswald Chambers has been dead over 100 years, is still influencing even the President of the United States.  So here we are, I'm building up a library of books and videos, and I've been able to do that more since I learned I'm dying than any other period in my life.  And then God led a man by the name of James Davis and me to start, as a part of the Crusade ministry, Global Pastures Network, where our goal is to help start 5 million house churches in the next 10 years, and we're working with all major denominations.  We're working with scores of para-church groups, and it's not just a Campus Crusade for Christ project, though it's directed by Crusade under the leadership of Dr. Steve Douglas, but it's a partnership where the leaders of Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God, Presbyterians, and Methodists and many other groups – over 70 denominations and scores of para-church groups are involved. So when I look back over what's happened in the last 18 months, I would have to say I'm glad the Lord let me stay here, and I don't want to stay one second longer than He wants me here. Dennis:          You haven't retired? Bill:                  (laughs) No – I've re-fired. Dennis:          You have re-fired.  What are your dreams if the Lord gives you another 18 months? Bill:                  Well, I would just want to see everything I'm now doing increased, expanded, developed.  But there's one very important thing that is really on my heart in addition to the others, and that is to call America back to the Bible and back to the God of the Bible.  I mentioned that Brad, our son, has written this book, "God is the Issue."  I've written a book on the attributes of God, " God Discovers Character," and "The Year of the Bible.  So we're working on a strategy to take those three – "God is the Issue," "The Year of the Bible," and "God Discovers Character," and do an evangelistic thrust in every community of America, and I can't think of any better way to announce it than your radio program, because, you see, if we get back to the God of the Bible, revival comes.                          And, you know I've fasted and prayed 40 days each year for the last nine years for revival for America, the world, and The Great Commission to be fulfilled.  So I am believing that God is going to raise up the kind of leaders that are necessary in every community of America to make this happen.   Dennis:          Bill, you described heaven as a place you long to go for.  Your face lit up.  I want you to do something you may have never been asked to do – how would you describe hell? Bill:                  Oh, oh, oh – I've just written a book, "Heaven or Hell:  The Ultimate Choice," and hell is an awesome, horrible, indescribably cruel, terrible place, and the average Christian does not realize that his loved ones, neighbors, and friends, are going to hell, and because he doesn't realize there is a hell that is so horrible there are no human words to describe it – this agony for all eternity.  Now you say "Would a loving God send people to hell?"  No.  God has put a cross at the entrance of hell, and the only way anybody can go to hell is to reject God's love and God's forgiveness.  Christ died for all people – Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, everybody – and He's not willing that any should perish.                         Peter writes, "God has delayed His return in order that more people might have a chance to receive Christ."  So God is not being unfair, but He is a just God, He's a holy God, a righteous God, and if we insist on violating His laws and disobeying Him, we are choosing to follow the kingdom of darkness – Satan – and I'm sobered by this.  Hell is a terrible place.  Heaven is an incredibly beautiful place, and as we read in Colossians 1:13 and 14, God has liberated us out of the darkness and gloom of Satan's kingdom and brought us into the kingdom of His dear Son Who bought our freedom with His blood and forgave us all our sins.                         To everyone who is listening to me, take serious what I'm saying and what Dennis and Bob are saying – there are only two kingdoms in this world – Christ's kingdom and Satan's kingdom – and you and your loved ones are a member of either one of those, and you can't be a member of them both, and if you are playing footsies with the ways of the world and being enamored with the things of the world, you are being deceived by the enemy of your soul.  God prepared hell for Satan and his angels, not for you and me.  But if we insist on following Satan, we will go to hell where he is.  I just want to stand on the street corners and say, "Stop, stop, listen to me, you're on your way to heaven or hell, and there aren't any alternatives.  You're a member of one of two kingdoms – there aren't any other kingdoms," and we need to proclaim that. Dennis:          And to that person, Bill, right now, who is listening, who is going, "I don't want to go there.  I don't want to go to a place of spiritual torment, of emotional grief and of judgment.  I want out of that kingdom.  I want to make sure I'm in God's kingdom – a place of peace, a place of beauty, a place of knowing God, seeing Him, and experiencing His love face-to-face."  What should that person do right now? Bill:                  I'd like to ask everyone who has that desire to pray with me.  I'd like to lead them in prayer. Dennis:          That's good. Bill:                  Just, phrase-by-phrase, you quote after me.  Now, Jesus promised us – before we pray – "If you hear My voice and open the door, I'll come in."  If He is speaking to you through this program or any other program, don't you hesitate for a moment.  You may never have another opportunity like this, because God's grace does not always continue.  There's a time when He says, "I will withdraw My blessing from you."  Now, I ask you, if you really want Jesus in your heart, pray this prayer with me, phrase-by-phrase.  Pray it aloud if you're in a position where you can do so – if not, silently – "Lord Jesus, I know You're the Son of God, I know You died on the cross for my sins.  Come into my life, forgive my sins, change my life, make me the kind of person You want me to be." God bless you.  Don't miss out on His plan for you.  He loves you.  He died for you.  He reaches out to embrace you.  Now don't turn Him away.  Follow Him to your last breath, and He will never fail you.  God bless you. Bob:                That, of course, is Dr. Bill Bright, who has shared those sentiments over the last 50 years over and over and over again – calling men and women to faith in Christ and then to service to their Master throughout their lifetime. Dennis:          That's right, and I have to turn to the audience right now and say to that woman who is listening, that man – if you do not know where you will spend eternity after hearing an 81-year-old man who is nearing the end of his life, give you an eternal perspective that there are two kingdoms – the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness, of the devil, wouldn't you like to be sure you are headed toward the kingdom of God? It's a gift.  It's a gift that comes from God by His grace if we will yet receive it by faith in Him and His Word and basically Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins.  We must receive Him.  We must trust Him.  We must ask Him to be our Savior, our Master, our Lord, and I would just challenge you, right now – if you've not made that discovery, if you do not know the Creator of the Universe and are not walking with Him, there is no better time than right now. Put aside excuses, lay aside that obstacle, that burden, that person in the church that has kept you from receiving Christ and come right now.  Just come to Him and kneel and ask Him – Lord Jesus be merciful to me, a sinner.  Come into my life, forgive my sins, be my Master, my Lord, and begin to make me who You created me to be.  Pray that prayer right now in faith, and I just want to remind you, it's not the words of your mouth, but it is the attitude of your heart of coming to God that I believe establishes a relationship with the Almighty God. Bob:                If you want to know about that relationship with God and want to know what it means to be in a right relationship with God, call us and ask about a book we'd like to send you called "Right With God."  It's a book that will explain to you how a man is made right with God and what it means to be a follower of Christ.  Ask for a copy of that book.  We'll send it at no cost to anyone who prayed along with Dennis, anyone who wants to give his life to Christ today.  Call 1-800-FLTODAY and ask about the book, "Right With God."                         Let me also mention that we have our entire visit with Dr. Bill Bright available on audiocassette or CD.  If you'd like to hear the entire conversation with Dr. Bright – we've had to edit it here for broadcast purposes – but you can hear the unedited dialog on cassette or on CD, and in our conversation with Dr. Bright, we had the opportunity to ask him about the books that he has written, and he said that his favorite of all of those books was a book called, "God: Discover His Character," a book about the attributes of our great God, and we have that book available as well.  If you would like to deepen your understanding and your knowledge of who God is, and I'll tell you, all of us can benefit from that exercise, get a copy of Dr. Bright's book.  Again, it's called "God:  Discover His Character," and you can ask for a copy when you call 1-800-FLTODAY or you can request a copy online at FamilyLife.com.                         We always enjoy hearing from our listeners, Dennis.  We just recently heard from a number of our Legacy Partners, many of them writing to request prayer on a variety of subjects, and we do pray for you when you contact us and let us know what your needs are, and we appreciate those of you who are able to help with our financial needs as a ministry, either as a Legacy Partner or as a FamilyLife Champion.  If you would like to make a contribution to FamilyLife or if you'd like to contact us so that we can be praying for you, you can write to FamilyLife at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  The zip code is 72221.  Once again, write to FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  The zip code is 72221.  You can also donate online at FamilyLife.com or you can call to make a donation at 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.                         Well, tomorrow we're going to continue to hear excerpts from our recent dialogue with Dr. Bill Bright, the past president and founder of Campus Crusade for Christ.  I hope you can be back with us for that.                         I want to thank our engineer today, Robbie Neal, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.   We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com 

A Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 1) - Bill BrightA Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 2) - Bill BrightA Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 3) - Bill BrightFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Finish the RaceDay 2 of 3 Guest:                    Bill Bright From the series:   Reflections of Life:  A Personal Visit With Bill Bright  Bob:                There is a problem within the church today.  According to Dr. Bill Bright, there are a lot of people who say they love God when many of them don't really know Him. Bill:                  The average person has a superficial view of God, and you can't love someone you don't know, you can't trust someone you don't know, you can't obey someone you don't know.  So the most important thing is to find out who God is, discover His character, and just love, trust, and obey Him. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, February 20th.  Our host is the Executive Director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  Today – a conversation with a man who has spent his life introducing people to their Creator.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Thursday edition.  You've been asked a number of times by people that question – if you could have dinner with any four people, living or dead, who would you invite to your dinner party and probably stopped and considered that question and thought about the Apostle Paul or about King David or whoever you might choose to be at your dinner party.                         I would imagine that there would be many listeners who, when asked that question, would have on their list, the opportunity to invite Bill and Vonette Bright to that dinner party and just to be able to interact with them about a life of faithfulness to Christ that God has honored in a remarkable way. Dennis:          You know, when I was a young man starting out right after college, I had no idea how Bill Bright's life would impact mine initially, from a distance.  But here in the last dozen or so years, I've had the opportunity to have many, many meals with Bill, to have personal time with him, and you and I had the opportunity to fly down to Orlando and sit in their living room and just have a sweet chat with an 81-year-old man who is suffering from a very serious illness … Bob:                … he's got a pulmonary fibrosis … Dennis:          … right – that has taken away 60 percent of his lungs' capacity, and, Bob, you and I both left those interviews, which we started on yesterday's broadcast, and if you missed it, I would encourage you to call and get the tapes and get the entire interview, because it's a great reminder from a man who has lived his life well, about what is really important.  And one of the things I wanted to ask him about and interview him about was the subject of money, because there's a lot of great stories about how Bill Bright personally has approached money and his own personal wealth, which he doesn't have a lot of personal wealth. Bob:                In spite of the fact that he has written a number of books and at one point was handed a check for $1 million. Dennis:          Right, he won the Templeton Award and gave that money immediately and invested it in Campus Crusade for Christ for the purpose of prayer and fasting. Bob:                In fact, I think he talks about that in the section of the interview we're going to hear today, because you did quiz him about the issue of wealth and how we handle our money and, in fact, that's where we'll pick things up today.  This is Part 2 of an interview done recently with the former president and founder of Campus Crusade for Christ, Dr. Bill Bright. Dennis:          You have rubbed shoulders with people who have had enormous wealth in your 81 years of life.  You've been a part of seeing people invest literally tens of millions, hundreds of millions, billions of dollars in the kingdom work.  What advice would you have for the man, the couple, who really want to use their lives and their wealth for the glory of God? Bill:                  Well, first of all, wealth is a gift of God.  It all belongs to Him.  At best, we are stewards.  There is no one who could say, "Look, I've accumulated this vast fortune.  I did it with my own ability."  Everything is a gift, even the breath which we breathe, and I'm on oxygen 24 hours a day, so I appreciate breath as a gift of God.                           But anyone who thinks that they are responsible for their vast wealth is not thinking logically.  There are many, many factors that contribute to vast wealth, and so I say to men and women of wealth – live a good life.  Enjoy yourself, but you should not be extravagant and don't destroy your grandchildren by leaving them large sums of money.  Take care of sending them to college or whatever they may need but be sure you do not spoil your children and your grandchildren and future heirs by leaving a trust that will cause them to be lethargic, complacent, and never develop the skills which you've developed because you had to.                         Remember, it's all God's money, and you're going to be held accountable in a very real way when you get to heaven, if you make it, and if your money and your wealth and your material possessions are your god, you won't make it.   Bob:                Have you seen people leave money to children or grandchildren and that lethargic complacency that you're talking about – have you seen those who were destroyed by … Bill:                  … absolutely, absolutely.  I think of a tragic situation – a couple came to me one day.  They had worked hard together.  They had built a fortune.  They had one daughter, and she married an atheist who hated God, and they said, "What are we going to do with that money?"  I said, "Whatever you do, don't leave it to your daughter and your grandchildren, because he will use it for purposes that are contrary to everything you stand for.  Give it away while you're alive.  Take care of them in a modest way but don't give that money to your atheistic son-in-law," who wouldn't even allow his children to go to Sunday school.                         Well, their love for their children overruled that, and they left it to the family, and you can imagine what happened to it.  It was a tragic situation.  They'll be held accountable for this.  It's well known that people who inherit large sums of money in their youth generally are not properly motivated to maximize their gifts.  So they drift through life, living a life of ease, and they literally become parasites on society.  And, as you know, in parts of the world where there is the class of the super-rich, they're usually very decadent.  That's not always true but all too often extreme wealth clouds the thinking of the recipients of that wealth – bigger homes, bigger cars, a greater opulence and extravagance instead of "Lord, this is all yours.  How can we use it to bring greater glory, greater honor, and greater praise to You." Bob:                Does it seem to you that sometimes those who don't have any spiritual convictions are more generous and more inclined to give?  I'm thinking of Ted Turner giving millions of dollars to the United Nations or Bill Gates setting up a foundation for vaccinations around the world.  I sometimes wonder if we ought to take a lesson from some of these folks. Bill:                  Well, one should never question another's motives – why they give – but there are many tax benefits, many considerations, and I pray that those who God, whether they believe it or not, God uniquely blessed.  I think back on my own career as a businessman.  I started my business with a modest capital, and because of the influence of two men who were kind of like fathers to me – they had no sons of their own – and they were among the leaders in the whole confection industry.  They helped promote my merchandise – Bright's Brandied and Epicurean Foods – whenever people came to their businesses, and they were two of the top men in the nation.  They would promote my merchandise, because they liked me, and they liked my merchandise.                         I wasn't a believer, but at least one of the men, I know, was a believer.  The other one, I'm not sure of, but they helped me tremendously.  So, as a kid, in my early 20s, I was experiencing phenomenal success, and yet I can't say I was smart, I was brilliant, I did this, I did that – God arranges all these things, and I was able to succeed in the measure I did because of many factors.                         So anyone who is wealthy would have to say, if he thinks clearly, "I had a lot of help from God working through people," and I look back on my own business career; I have to say God orchestrated all these many wonderful things preparing me for the day when I'd be born into His family, and He could show me a whole new way of life. Dennis:          Bill, you're still highly motivated, even at 81 years of age.  You're on oxygen 24 hours a day; your lungs are only working at about 40 percent of capacity – what gets you out of bed in the morning? Bill:                  Well, my love for Jesus.  You know, people ask me "What's the most important thing we could pray for you?"  And I always respond, "Pray that I will never leave my first love."  Love God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and, of course, love your neighbor as yourself, love your enemies.  So my love for Him and my desire to please Him, to obey Him, He is my Master, my Lord, and I can't think of any activity in which I could be engaged that is more important than pleasing Him. And, of course, I say all that, including my precious wife.  She is the joy and delight of my heart.  We've been married over 54 years and all I can do is thank God at what an incredible, wonderful, fantastic wife He has given me – and lover and partner and friend in Vonette, and I encourage every man out there who wants to live a fruitful, wonderful life, to love your wife as Christ loved the church, even if you do it for selfish reasons, and you can't really do it for selfish reasons, because loving your wife has to be supernatural with His enabling, but if you don't have a happy wife, you're not going to have a happy heart.  And you need to give attention to your dear, beloved, precious spouse, who is a gift of God until death do us part, and don't ever think of divorce as a way out.  You find someone as God has led you to be married, or if He should lead you in the future to be married, remember, obey the Word of God; love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it – and sacrificial living. Dennis:          Bill, Bob and I – and I'm taking our average age together here, because Bob's about to correct me out of this, but we're approximately 30 years behind you in the race. Bob:                I'm a little farther behind than Dennis.  I'd just like to make that clear. Dennis:          And it's not that I'm that much older, Bill, than he is … Bill:                  … maybe a couple of days. Dennis:          Yeah, a couple of days, a couple of days older than Bob – certainly not more mature, though.  But what advice would you have for a man who wants to finish well?  I mean, if God grants strength and favor, Bob and I will live another 30 years.  What exhortation would you give us, as men, and just to men in terms of how they run the race and end up at the finish line like you are, still sprinting at the end? Bill:                  Well, you remember, Paul writes to Timothy – chapter 4, verses 7 and 8 – "I've fought a good fight, I've finished the race, and I've been faithful."  I would say the number-one priority – love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and that requires time in the Word.  You can't live a godly life unless you're taking God's Word in your daily moment by moment.  Communicate with God in prayer.  Prayer is like breathing.  We pray and talk to Him.  So love Him, trust Him, obey Him, and in order to all this, you have to know who He is. So if you have a superficial view of God, you need to begin to study the attributes of God.  That's the reason I wrote the book, "God:  Discover His Character," three or four years ago, because the average person has a superficial view of God, and you can't love someone you don't know; you can't trust someone you don't know; you can't obey someone you don't know.  So the most important thing is to find out who God is, discover his character, and just love, trust, and obey Him. Bob:                You see what Dennis has got in his hand there, don't you? Bill:                  I just happened to see that. Dennis:          I have a card that, Bill, you discovered the power of lamination before Bob did, but you laminated a card here that is entitled the name of your book, "God:  Discover the Benefits of His Attributes."  And on this card, on the front and back, are listed different attributes of God. Bill:                  Thirteen attributes. Dennis:          Thirteen attributes, and I'm not going to ask you to name all 13, although I'm confident you could do it. Bill:                  I memorized and meditate on them almost every day and night.  I wake up in the middle of the night and while I'm going back to sleep, I will run through different ones and just praise the Lord for who He is. Dennis:          Well, what I want you to do, and I was going to ask you this question, anyway, but you've taken me there – out of these 13 what three are the most meaningful? Bill:                  They're all important.  I can't … Dennis:          … I know they're all important, and I knew you were going to say that, but as you have meditated and have gotten to know God, and as He has revealed Himself to you, could you name three that are closest to you in your walk. Bill:                  I wouldn't say three are more important than the rest, but God is sovereign.  He rules in the affairs of men and nations.  He controls everything.  We think we're smart, and we're really dummies compared to Him.  After all, look at – study the human eyeball or the corpuscle, or anything about any of His creation, and you realize we're just dummies.  So He is sovereign.  He lifts up, and He puts down.  And then He is love. Dennis:          I'm going to stop you there, because I want to read what you wrote on the card – "Because God is sovereign, that's who He is, I will joyfully submit to His will." Bill:                  Yes. Dennis:          So it's more than just an intellectual realization that there is One who rules absolutely. Bill:                  I put the word "joyfully" in there especially, because it's not just kind of a duty.  God is sovereign, so I'm going to be – I'm just going to resign myself to the fact that He is in charge, and it's going to be a boring drudgery.  No, God is in charge, and it's a joyful journey to know that He's in charge.  If I didn't know He was in charge, now I'm breathing on oxygen for the last couple of years – I would probably be kind of anxious at times.  But God is in charge.  Nothing happened.  You know, you read Acts 4 – "Nothing happens to you and me that is not with His approval."  Satan has no power over us except that which God allows.  Everything is filtered through His love.                          You have cancer, you have a heart attack, you have a stroke, you have financial problems – what do you do about it?  Well, Paul writes, "Rejoice."  James writes, "Rejoice.  In all things give thanks."  Well, you know, one of the greatest lessons I've ever learned, which I learned maybe 40 years or so ago is that all things – give thanks.  Rejoice in adversity as well as blessings. Dennis:          And you can do that because you know there is One. Bill:                  I know there is a sovereign God.  He rules in the affairs, and when I say thank you, even through my tears I'm demonstrating faith, and the scripture says without faith it's impossible to please God.  That which is not of faith is sin.  The judged shall live by faith.  So I'm saying, when I praise God that I'm wearing this tube, breathing oxygen, I'm praising God out of a joyful heart not out of resignation, and then, of course, the love – God's love for me is unconditional.  Because God is love, he is unconditionally committed to my well-being and, you know, you could spend an hour talking about the love of God.  Nothing can separate us from the love of God, no matter how even we sin and grieve Him, His love reaches out to us.                         Which brings me to the third attribute, and I hate to leave out any of those 13, and, of course, there are many others – is mercy – because of His mercy.  If I confess my sins, He is always faithful and just to forgive me of my sins, because of His mercy. Dennis:          Right.  Bill, you mentioned your book, "God:  Discover the Benefits of His Attributes."  I've lost count of how many books you've written … Bill:                  … about a hundred … Dennis:          … you're writing them faster than I can read them.  It's over 100 books? Bill:                  Over 100 books and booklets. Dennis:          Okay. Bill:                  And thousands of articles. Dennis:          Bob gets onto me for asking these questions, but I'm going to ask you – do you have a favorite? Bill:                  I would say probably the best book I've ever written is "God:  Discover His Character," because it deals with the attributes of God, and you – you know, I've written on the Ten Commandment, living supernaturally in Christ … Dennis:          … you've written about the person of Jesus Christ … Bill:                  … the person of Jesus, prayer, on and on and on, but getting to know God, His marvelous attributes, you realize everything else falls into place. Bob:                Well, again, today we've been listening to Dr. Bill Bright, founder and past president of Campus Crusade for Christ rehearsing the attributes of God, which is a healthy exercise for all of us all the time, isn't it? Dennis:          It is, and if there's anything I've learned from Bill Bright is that we need to not only talk about God and what He's doing in our lives, but we need to know Him, and we need to continue to pursue Him to get to know Him and a part of that comes, Bob, as we understand the qualities that we use as human beings to describe little facets of God's character, and I do think, and I agree with Bill, this is the greatest book, this book on the character of God that Bill Bright wrote.  This is his greatest book he's ever written. Bob:                The book is called, "God:  Discover His Character," and we have it available in our FamilyLife Resource Center.  This is a book that is great for private devotions, it's a book that parents can use in family time with the children to help introduce the children to the greatness of our God.  If you'd like to get a copy, you can call 1-800-FLTODAY or you can request a copy online at FamilyLife.com.  Again, the title is "God:  Discover His Character," by Dr. Bill Bright.                         When you get in touch with us, you may also want to request either cassettes or CDs of our complete interview with Dr. Bill Bright.  We have only been able to feature portions of it here on FamilyLife Today, but if you'd like to hear the entire conversation, you can ask about those tapes or about CD copies of the interviews when you contact us again, at 1-800-FLTODAY or, if you'd like to, you can order online at FamilyLife.com.                         I was thinking about Dr. Bright's book, and I was thinking about our mission at FamilyLife to effectively develop godly families who change the world one home at a time.  If we're going to succeed in that mission of developing godly families, then we have to make sure that our families know the God we want to reflect in our own character and in our own lives, and FamilyLife is committed to that spiritual agenda. We want husbands and wives and moms and dads to be centered on the priority of God's Word in your marriage and in your family.  We are joined in that agenda by a whole lot of folks around the country who are FamilyLife Champions or Legacy Partners – in fact, some brand-new Legacy Partners who just joined with us here in the last few weeks, and it's nice to have you folks on board with us.  A Legacy Partner is somebody who, on a monthly basis, makes a contribution to our ministry. We often will hear from those Legacy Partners, Dennis, who write to us and ask us to pray for them.  In fact, I just saw that we've gotten a note from a 69-year-old grandmother in South Dakota who is raising two boys – she's raising a 12-year-old and a 16-year-old, and I don't know the circumstances that have her raising those young men, but she said, "Please pray for me.  I need strength and patience."  And we do take those requests for prayer seriously, and our team joins in praying for folks who write to us with those kinds of requests. If you'd like to find out more about becoming a Legacy Partner and joining with us financially or if you'd like to write to us with a prayer request, our mailing address is FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  Our zip code is 72221.  Once again, it's FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas, and our zip code is 72221.  You can also get in touch with us by calling 1-800-FLTODAY.  You can donate over the phone or you can make an online donation at our website at FamilyLife.com. Well, tomorrow we will hear the concluding portion of our conversation held recently with Dr. Bill Bright, the past president and founder of Campus Crusade for Christ.  I hope you can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Robbie Neal, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.   We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com 

A Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 1) - Bill BrightA Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 2) - Bill BrightA Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 3) - Bill BrightFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Final ExhortationsDay 3 of 3 Guest:                    Bill Bright From the series:   Reflections of Life:  A Personal Visit With Bill Bright   Bob:                Dr. Bill Bright has a message for Christians today, and it's a simple, basic message. Bill:                  I would say to all believers – love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.  Seek first His kingdom, obey His commandments, trust His promises, and spend the rest of your life getting to know Him so you can love Him and trust Him and obey Him without any hesitancy. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, February 21st.  Our host is the Executive Director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  Today a conversation with a man whose life is centered in The Great Commission and The Great Commandment.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Friday edition.  For the last couple of days we've been listening back to an interview that was conducted recently with the past president and founder of Campus Crusade for Christ, Dr. Bill Bright.  I don't know if you've ever wondered this – but have you ever asked yourself what would have happened to Bill Bright if he'd never been converted, if he'd never come to faith in Christ?  What do you think his life would have been, what would it have looked like? Dennis:          Well, he described himself a couple of days ago on FamilyLife Today as a happy pagan.  He was very successful in the candy business and had created a line of candies called "Bright's Confectionary Candies," I guess. Bob:                "Bright's Delights," wasn't it? Dennis:          Bright's Delights, that's right, that's right.  So maybe some major chocolate lines wouldn't be here because Bill Bright would be ruling in the candy world.  But he didn't do that, Bob.  He yielded and surrendered his life and signed over a title deed of his life, along with his wife Vonette, and for more than 50 years they not only have been married but also have been in surrendered service to Christ and have been used mightily by God. Bob:                I think one of the things that has stuck in my mind, as I've had the opportunity to meet and interact with Dr. Bright, has been his remarkable focus.  Most of us get distracted by all kinds of lesser things, but I don't think I've ever seen him in any environment at any time when he's been distracted by anything other than the Gospel.  It's always about life with Christ.  It's always about evangelism and discipleship and walking with Christ and getting to know the Savior.  I don't know if he's paid attention to anything mundane in the last 50 years. Dennis:          I think some of our listeners would probably be shocked at how little television, how few movies he's ever seen in his life.  I doubt if he reads much of the newspaper, but he saturates his mind and his heart and his life with the scriptures, and I've heard him say on a number of occasions, "I evaluate every day of my life as to how it will contribute to The Great Commission.                          Now, if you think about it, it makes sense that if Jesus Christ said "I have the greatest commission that has ever been given, that I want to give to you," wouldn't it be wise for us to evaluate our lives and how they are contributing to fulfilling what Jesus called the greatest commission – to go to the world and proclaim the Gospel. Bob:                Well, let me take our listeners with us to Bill Bright's living room at his condominium in Orlando, Florida, where we had the opportunity to enjoy a casual conversation about some deeply profound subjects.  Here's Dr. Bill Bright: Dennis:          By all measures of this world, you have lived, not a storybook life, but certainly a successful life.  You undoubtedly have a definition of what a successful life looks like.  Would you mind sharing that? Bill:                  Successful Christian life, and that's summum bonum – that's more important than any other – is the crucified life.  Paul writes in Galatians 2:20 – "I am crucified with Christ.  Nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live with the faith of the son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me."  So the success of the Christian life belongs to those who know the reality of being crucified with Christ. Dennis:          Putting to death the flesh. Bill:                  Putting death to flesh – and out of that relationship, where Christ is all – He is Lord, He is Master, He is Savior, He is King – comes joy and rejoicing and full of glory.  So that's success – being dead to self and alive to Christ. Dennis:          As a man, as a husband, and as a father – do you have any regrets? Bill:                  I shared one with you – my failure to witness to Coach Red Sanders. Dennis:          The coach at UCLA back in the early 1950s? Bill:                  Yes.  That was an experience I've lived with all these years, because I disobeyed God. Dennis:          Any others? Bill:                  I, obviously, am far from a perfect husband or father or anything, but I don't have any regrets.  I look back on a life that's been rich and full, even the defeats, even the times of heartache and sorrow, God has used for His glory.  It's like Joseph said of his imprisonment and his problems as a result of being sold into slavery by his brothers – "What you intended for evil, God used for good."  And I've found that even in my mistakes, if my spirit is right, my heart is pure, my motives are pure, God turns my mistakes to blessings. Dennis:          Looking back over your life, you've done a lot of courageous things.  Obviously, God at work in you, but what would you say, looking back over 81 years, was the most courageous act you've ever performed? Bill:                  Well, there are many thoughts that come to mind – surrendering everything, where we signed a contract to be slaves of Jesus, putting everything in His hands – all that we owned or ever would own – that was simply an act of obedience, so I don't think it was that courageous, because I was doing what He told me to do.                           Moving to UCLA to start the ministry – I was the only one on staff, thought I was teaching school, and she joined me the second year.  I think, for example, when God led us to start Expo 72.  We'd never done anything like this and a good percentage of the staff leaders objected and some resigned.  Another time, when 13 men marched into my office, men who were like my sons whom I love to this day, every one of them, and God never allowed me to resent them, but they came into my office and demanded I resign.  They were taking over the movement.  To this day, when I have met them on different occasions, I give them a big hug and mean it.  I say, "I love you," and mean it.  That was something that God used to be a blessing.  Incidentally, six of those men left.  They were going to take the whole movement, and 750 people joined the staff that summer, and it was like God pruned so He could give fruit. Dennis:          Bill, you've been close to death because of your lung disease.  Have you ever been afraid to die? Bill:                  No. Dennis:          There's never been the fear of dying? Bill:                  As a matter of fact, God has graciously given me the joy of dying.  You know, face it, you can't lose when you go to be with the Lord.  But Vonette and I were on this airplane out of New York flying to Washington one evening some years ago, and it rained all afternoon.  The flight was delayed and delayed and delayed and finally the pilots apparently just took it in their hands and said, "We're going to fly."  So within minutes after we got in the air, we were in the middle of a firestorm.  I mean, a ball of fire and a tornado type wind, and the plane was like a leaf in the wind – it was awesome.  The wings were just going up and down like a bird, and we knew we couldn't possibly survive. So Vonette and I sat there in the plane, held hands, and prayed and said goodbye and thanked the Lord that we would soon be with Him, and it was very somber and yet – I can't say it was joyful because, frankly, it was frightening.  The plane was just about to come apart, from our perspective.  And we flew and flew and flew and just kept flying and Washington isn't that far away.  By this time, it was night, and finally we landed in a little out-of-the-way airport and discovered that the lightning had struck a hole in the fuselage.  I'd never heard of that before.  It knocked out all the navigational instruments and the pilot was flying blind. When we got off the plane, he was as white as a sheet, and he said, "In all my millions of miles, I've never had an experience like this."  Well, I didn't know it, how serious it was – oh, I knew it was serious – but when I got to Washington, D.C., the next morning we rode the bus from that place to the airport, and I got to the desk, and the girl said, "Oh, you were on that plane that was struck by lightning, and the plane has a big hole in it."  I didn't know that, of course.  I'd never heard of that happening. So then I was in Ghana – I had a summer experience where, in those days, most national airlines were not safe.  The flight was delayed again and again and again.  Finally, after some hours, we took off.  In the meantime, I'd gone around witnessing different people – nobody seemed to be interested, and so just as we were off the pad, just barely, there was this big explosion.  So I thought a tire blew out, but we came to a screeching halt and got off, and the motor had blown up, and had we been in the air, we'd be dead. Dennis:          Unbelievable. Bill:                  So I've had a few of these … Bob:                … but it's not the fear of death – we're never sure how we're going to get there, whether it's going to be a bumpy ride, whether we're going to wind up with a disease that takes us, but all of us are headed to the same place. Bill:                  Death is universal, we're all going to die.  That's the reason it's so important to know where we're going while we're still alive. Dennis:          Bill, someday the news will go out around the world, because it will be an international news event of your home-going, and when that happens, we want to honor Christ for what He did in your life, and I'm most certain that will happen through your memorial service and all that occurs after your home-going.  But I'm wondering what you would want the world to know – your final exhortation – because we're going to play a tape of a broadcast like this with you that Bob and I have done and have some of your words on it.  What would be your final exhortation to the world? Bill:                  I would say to all believers – love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.  Seek first His kingdom, obey His commandments, trust His promises, and spend the rest of your life getting to know Him so you can love Him and trust Him and obey Him without any hesitancy.  Vonette and I have talked about this and concluded:  My own desire was to die as I've tried to live – Galatians 2:20 – Bill Bright is crucified with Christ.  And I asked her if she would bury me in an unmarked grave as a testimony of Galatians 2:20, because dead people are dead. She didn't think it was a good idea.  So we agreed that we would have on our tombstone – "Bill and Vonette Bright, slaves of Jesus" – Philippians 2:7, Jesus was a slave.  God the Creator came to earth disguised as a slave.  And Paul speaks of himself, Romans 1:1 – "slave" and Peter and others – so we'd have appropriate references – but Bill and Vonette Bright, slaves of Jesus, because, as you know, we signed the contract in the spring of 1951 – literally wrote out a contract and signed it to be His slaves, and it's the most liberating thing that's ever happened to us.  I want that to be a testimony of the greatest privilege anyone can have – to be a slave of Jesus. Dennis:          Well, I want you to know, over a year and a half ago when the news came that it looked like you were going to be coming back to Florida, where we are here for this interview, to spend your final days and to die, I spent several hours writing you a letter of – just expressing my profound appreciation for being an employee for 33 years of Campus Crusade.  I'm coming up on my 33rd year.  Bill, it's a miracle you didn't fire me. Bill:                  You're too young. Dennis:          But I really – I appreciate you, your life, and I wanted you to know that face-to-face.  I wrote you the letter and expressed that in that letter, God used my dad in my life and some key pastors to disciple me, and I count you right up there at the top with them of men who have had a profound impact on my life. Bill:                  I'm not worthy to hear that, but I was so moved when you expressed your love in that way in the letter.  I treasure that. Dennis:          Well, I know you received quite a few of them, because I would run into guys who had said they had been to visit you, and I thought, "He's not going to have time to die.  He's got too many people lined up to express appreciation," but I love you. Bill:                  Well, you are very special to me, Dennis.  I have shared with many people through the years what an inspiration and challenge you are to me – what a blessing you are, and I'm just honored to be on this program, and I believe, in spite of the way God's already used you, the best is before you, and I predict that in your lifetime your influence will be as great as anything I've been privileged to experience worldwide. Dennis:          You are very kind. Bob:                Well, this has been a treat.  Over the last three days we've been listening to an interview that was recorded just a few months ago with Dr. Bill Bright, the founder and past president of Campus Crusade for Christ, and, boy, there at the end, it was a tender moment. Dennis:          It was and, frankly, I didn't think I was going to have the opportunity to say that face-to-face, Bob.  I had written some very tender words to him privately and had sent them to him because I thought, frankly, he was dying, but it was not something that I intended to do there at the end of our interview, but looking back on hearing those words again, it was a sweet moment, and I don't want our listeners to go away just yet, because at the end I was sitting there, and I was looking at you, Bob, and I really love and appreciate you, and I was thinking, "You know, if I was Bob, I would really like to hear Bill Bright pray for me."  And so I asked him to do that at the end, and he prayed for not only Bob but for me as well … Bob:                … he prayed for both of us … Dennis:          … and I want our listeners to hear that prayer. Bob:                Before we play that, let me let you know that we have copies of Dr. Bright's book on the character of God, the attributes of God.  It's called "God:  Discover His Character."  You can call 1-800-FLTODAY to request a copy or you can go online at FamilyLife.com.  Either way, we can have the book sent to you.  This is something you can use in your quiet time, you can use it for a group Bible study, you can use it for family devotions.  If you're home schooling, you can use it for your Bible curriculum with your children.  This is fundamental to how we live as Christians.  So let me encourage you to get a copy of this book, make sure it's in your library.  Again, it's called "God:  Discover His Character," by Dr. Bill Bright, and you can call 1-800-FLTODAY to request a copy or order online at FamilyLife.com.                         When you do contact us, if you'd like to get a copy of the complete interview with Dr. Bright – we've only been able to feature portions of it here on FamilyLife Today – but we have the entire discussion available on CD or on cassette, and you can request that resource online at FamilyLife.com or when you call 1-800-FLTODAY. As we played back that conversation, Dennis, I was thinking about the letter that you are going to be sending out to our Legacy Partners here in the next few weeks, where you talk about the fact that we have lost our respect for authority and our fear of God.  When we do know God, we develop a reverence and awe for who He is, and I appreciated your comments in that letter.  It's part of our regular communication with those folks who so support this ministry on a monthly basis.  Not only do they hear from you, but we often hear from them.  In fact, we had a Legacy Partner in New York state who wrote recently and said, "Pray for guidance on what would be God's perfect plan for us, whether we ought to add a fourth child to our family.  We just finished our most recent Homebuilders study, and our spiritual growth has skyrocketed.  Thank you for your prayers.  We are praying for you."  What a delight to hear from folks who not only support this ministry with their financial gifts but those of you who pray for us as well.  We have just added a whole bunch of new Legacy Partners to this ministry, and thanks to those of you who have joined with us in this effort. If you'd like to find out more about becoming a Legacy Partner, or if you'd like to request prayer, you can write to us at FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  The zip code is 72221.  Once again, it's FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  The zip code is 72221, or you can make a donation online at FamilyLife.com, and you can also phone in your donation at 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. Well, I hope our listeners have had the chance to listen over the last three days.  If not, I hope you'll get either the cassettes or the CDs of our conversation with Dr. Bill Bright.  That dialog went on for nearly two hours, and at the end of that time, Dennis, you asked Dr. Bright to pray for us, and we wanted our listeners to hear that prayer.  Here is Dr. Bill Bright. Bill:                  Father, Father, Holy Father, we bow in reverence before Your majesty.  We are in awe of Your greatness.  When we think of who You are, we realize how little we are, how small in comparison, and yet even when we were yet in our sins, You died for us.  You love us.  You delight in us, and I thank You that in your sovereignty You chose Dennis and Bob to do what they're doing, and You've anointed them and given them favor and great blessing, and I ask, Holy Father, You'll keep them pure, keep their motives pure, their hearts pure, their attitudes, their desires, that they will be men of God after Your heart.  There will be no sin in their lives that will hinder Your working in and through them.  That is they speak day after day to millions of people, and that number, O gracious God, I pray will increase by the millions.  They will be channels of Your love, Your forgiveness, Your grace, to the multitudes of earth.  I pray for the day when their ministry will literally encircle the globe, where millions upon millions, day after day, will be drawn closer to You, will love You and trust You and obey You because of their influence.  Lord Jesus, bless their families – their families and their children's children's children yet unborn, that they may always love You, serve You, trust You, obey You, and that the legacy of these men will go on and on until You return.  Blessed Holy Father, thank You once again for these men whom You have chosen, whom You have anointed, whom You have empowered and may all glory, honor, worship, and praise go to You.  We pray it in the name of the One whose name is above everything, the Lord Jesus Christ.  Amen. Bob:                FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.   We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

Christian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 1) - Bishop Aaron BlakeChristian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 2) - Diana PrykhodkoChristian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 3) - Bishop W.C. MartinFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Adopting the Football Team Guest:                        Aaron Blake              From the series:       Adopting the Football Team (Day 1 of 1)  Bob: Aaron Blake is a pastor and worked for years as a guidance counselor at a local high school. He says nothing in his background prepared him for a conversation he would have with a young man named Melvin.  Aaron: I didn't understand what helping a 15-year-old in foster care was about. I had counseled folks with marriage, death and dying, jail—all kinds of situations—but never a foster kid that was in the system that had been in nine different placements since he was in high school. Now, he was sitting in front of me. I said this to him—I said: “Melvin, if I could, I'd take you home with me.” Bob: This is a special on-location edition of FamilyLife Today for Thursday, August 13th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll hear a powerful story from Bishop Aaron Blake today as we learn about how God enlarged his family. Stay tuned. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. Once again, we've got maybe the world's greatest studio audience joining us here at the Christian Alliance for Orphans' Summit. [Applause] [Laughter] We're going to talk about something that your [Dennis'] heart for this subject has been expanded in a personal way over the last several years. Dennis: It has. Barbara and I have six children, one of whom is adopted—we don't know which one [Laughter]—but our children have picked up the virus—the adoption virus. We now have 21 grandchildren through biological means but also adoption.  2:00 There's a couple here—my engrafted son, Michael Escue—and his wife, who is our daughter, Ashley. Ashley and Michael have cared for 21 foster care children over the years and have emptied their county of any waiting children in the foster care system. [Applause] We have a hero with us that I think fulfills one of the words that Christ gave in His Sermon on the Mount. Matthew, Chapter 5, says, “In the same way, let your light shine before others so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.” You are about to meet a hero, who has let his light shine, along with his wife Mary of 38 years. Bishop Aaron Blake is going to join us on the stage. Come on up, Bishop. Bob: Bishop Blake, join us. [Applause] 3:00 Dennis: Welcome to the broadcast and our small studio here; okay. He has been a pastor for more than 35 years. For a number of years, Bishop, you served as a bi-vocational pastor. You were a high school guidance counselor. That's really where the surgery for your heart began, around the subject of foster care—share how that happened. Aaron: Well, the school that I was presently serving had a situation where a number of kids came into the school—that were in foster care. Many times, kids that move from placement to placement had a situation where they lost credits every placement.  4:00 So, being there, as a guidance counselor/social worker, I wanted to find out how we can recover the credits of those kids so that that wouldn't be another setback for them. My journey started when one kid came to me with that problem. Bob: That was Melvin who came to you; right? Aaron: Well, when he came into the office now, he came in the office with a little chip on his shoulder and a little attitude.  Bob: Yes. Aaron: He came in and sat down on the desk in front of me. He said, “I don't know who you are, and I don't know what you do; but you can't make me go to class.” I said: “Well, I'm not the principal. I'm not the one that makes you do anything; but when you decide that you want to go to Brownwood High School, let me know.” He sat in front of me. He sat through first period, second period, and third period—and then the bell rang for lunch. He said, “Are you going to let me go eat?”  5:00 I said, “Man, you don't have any lunch because you're not enrolled.” [Laughter] I thought food would convince him that maybe he needs to get a class. He said, “Well, we'll just sit here then.” Then, after the last bell rang, I got hungry. [Laughter]  We went to lunch, and that started the dialogue of who Melvin was. On the way to lunch, I noticed he had some biceps and triceps. So, on the way to lunch, I took him through the football gymnasium and dressing room. Something about a sock-smelling dressing room that goes into the head and nostril of a kid—and he said, “Do you think I could play football for Brownwood High School?” I said, “No way.” He said, “Why?!” “You won't go to class!” [Laughter] We go get a burger. We come back—  6:00 —we come back through the hall where all of the trophies and the pictures [are] on the wall. That was my high school alma mater by the way—and two of those championships, I was on—there was my picture. I said, “You see that guy there?” He said, “Don't tell me that was you.” I said, “Yes.” I said, “We won State Championship,”—pulled him by the coach's office. The coach began to talk to him—say, “Hey, isn't this the guy that's going to come play football?” I said, “No way.” He said, “Why?!” I said, “Because he won't”—and then Melvin punched me in the side. [Laughter]  We walked off and Melvin said: “Hey, I'll make a deal with you. If you get me on the team, I'll go to class.” I got him on the team / he went to class, but my main assignment that day was to recover Melvin's lost credits. Many kids, across the country in foster care, these things happen. That's why the drop-out rate and the inability to finish high school are high amongst foster children. 7:00 Dennis: You know, you not only cared about his lost credits, you also cared about his lost soul. Aaron: Yes. Melvin had gotten into class, gotten on the football team, and had some success that year. Then, at the end of the year, something happened with his placement. CPS [Child Protective Services] called and said, “We're coming to get Melvin.” The school transferred the call to me. They said: “Would you prep Melvin because we're going to have to move him. We know he's having success, but something happened.”  Before I could get to Melvin, the CPS worker had already gotten to the school and told Melvin that he's going to move. Melvin bolted out the door, ran to the side of the building, across the football field and was gone. The CPS worker came and said, “He probably is going to contact you because of relationship.”  8:00 That evening, I stayed at the school late. Melvin came in and sat in the same chair in front of my desk that he sat in the first day that he came to see me. He sat in that desk after running. Perspiration drenched his body / his clothes—running down his face. I couldn't tell the tears running down his face from the perspiration. We sat what seemed like 15 minutes but probably was only 15 seconds. Finally, he squeaked out these words—and they're the reason why I'm here today—he said, “Brother Blake, will you help me?”  Well, I didn't understand what helping a 15-year-old in foster care was about. I had counseled folks with marriage, death and dying, jail—all kinds of situations—but never a foster kid that was in the system and had been in nine different placements since he was in high school.  9:00 Bob: Wow. Aaron: And now he was sitting in front of me. I said this to him—I said, “Melvin, if I could, I'd take you home with me.” He said, “Really?” I said, “Yes.” He said, “You would take me home with you?” I said, “In a heartbeat.” I said, “But CPS is coming, and you have to go with them.” He said, “Okay.”  I learned, six months later, that Melvin heard something that I didn't think I said; but I understood. Melvin told the caseworker that “Brother Blake said that I could come live with him.” [Laughter] They called me and they said, “Melvin said that you said he can come live with you.” I said, “Wow!” While I had the phone to my ear, I couldn't say, “No.” There was something happening in my spirit and in my heart that I couldn't say, “No.” At the same time, Mary was in my mind; and I couldn't say, “Yes.” [Laughter] 10:00 On the way home, now, I rehearsed over and over [Laughter] what I was going to say to Mary. At supper that night, she was just going off about everything. I didn't hear anything she said—[Laughter]—I was trying to figure out what I was going to say. Finally, I said, “Guess what happened to me today” [Laughter]; and then I told about Melvin.  I didn't know that Melvin had been in her Sunday school class. She said, “You mean little Melvin doesn't have a home?” I said, “No.” She said, “Little Melvin that goes to school?” I said, “Yes.” She said, “I hope you told them ‘Yes.'” I literally almost fell out of my chair. I couldn't wait until the next morning to call CPS to tell them: “Hey, yes. Melvin can come.”  11:00 I called at 8:00 straight up and got voice mail; but anyway, finally when I got through, I said: “Tell Melvin, ‘Yes,' he can come and live with us. We're ready.”  Then they said, “Are you a licensed foster parent?” Bob: The audience knows a little bit about that. Aaron: Yes. Well, I didn't know anything about it. I said, “What do you buy this at?” [Laughter] Well, we quickly found an agency and went through the process. Melvin came to live with us. That is how that story— Bob: That was the first of six foster sons—all of them foster sons—is that right? Aaron: Yes, all of them foster. Let me tell you this story quickly, if I can. Melvin played football. The outside tight end was a foster kid—blew his placement. At practice, Melvin went to him and said: “Don't worry about it. [Laughter] I know where you can go.” [Laughter]  12:00 But then, the outside line backer blew his placement— Dennis: Well, you know how many kids are on a football team. Aaron: Well, I do. [Laughter] So Melvin and Joseph go and say to Buck: “Don't worry about it guy. We can't lose you! We've got to win the playoffs.” [Laughter] So, he came to live with us. [Laughter] CPS called and says: “He has a brother. [Laughter] We love to keep siblings together”; and he came to us. Six boys later, our house was filled up. Dennis: You were a bi-vocational pastor at that time. Your church watched you do this. What was the impact on your congregation? Aaron: I went to my church. I stood up one Sunday—heart was heavy because, at that particular time, there were 30, 000 kids in the system in Texas.  13:00 I also noticed there were an over representation of African-American children—a dis-proportionality—that was also in the system. God began to deal with me that Sunday on the ministry of reconciliation. Reconciliation without restoration won't work. God has called us, because He's reconciled us by Christ to Himself, and given us the ministry of reconciliation.  Then I say, “God, how can I really preach James 1:27, as undefiled religion without understanding restoration of families?—and restoration of children?”  So, I stood up that Sunday in front of my congregation. I said, “Guys, how many of you here would help me stand up for orphans?” I didn't mean literally stand up; but a lady in the back stood up and said, “Pastor, I will.” Then another one stood up and said, “I will.” And another one stood up and said, “I will.” A year later, 36 kids were in our church because of Stand-Up Sunday. [Applause] 14:00 Dennis: That's cool. [Applause] Just real quickly—because there's one more of the six that you engrafted into your family that I want you to talk about—you're on a mission now about the entire state of Texas. Share just a quick—if you can—about how you're embodying the ministry of reconciliation there. Aaron: Well, the purifying part of James 1:27—that happened to Mary and I—is that we wanted to make sure that the body of Christ—across racial lines / across denominational lines—understand that the only way that we're going to really understand, as a body of Christ, and heal our nation, and our children, and broken families is reconciliation and restoration.  15:00 The church has been absent with foster care and adoption. They've been absent with racial reconciliation / family reconciliation. It's time for the church to stand up and say: “We are the voice. We have the ministry of reconciliation. And we're for restoring families.” [Applause] Dennis: You and I could fight for the soapbox, at this point, because I think this is a huge opportunity for the church. You are the church—we can make a difference in our individual communities.  I want you to introduce us to a young man who you engrafted in—one of the six foster care boys that you cared for. Tell us about Diego. Aaron: Well, Diego, even when we—they would be upstairs at our house, and they would be [makes noises] doing all that kind of stuff. [Laughter] Dennis: Whoa, whoa, what was that? Aaron: [Makes noises again] “What's that?” That was what they were doing when they didn't have all the machines and all the stuff that made the sounds—they were rapping.  16:00 Dennis: Okay. Aaron: Diego would try to come up with lines and lyrics and all that kind of stuff. So, he started rapping back then.  Diego was at one of our meetings—that we were having across the state—and I had never told because I didn't want our guys to be put on front street about an incident that happened. Mark had a candle in the window—wind blew in, caught the curtain, went up the wall, and our house burned down. We were having a meeting, like this, and telling folks that: “You need to step up. You need to become foster parents, and you need to adopt.” Then, Diego stands up and says, “We burnt the house down.” [Laughter] Dennis: Great advertisement for foster care; huh?  Aaron: Yes! [Laughter] But Diego went on to say—he said, “I knew that my mom”—and he called me Pop—“and my dad, Pop, really loved us unconditionally the next morning after the fire.”  17:00 Well, the boys, the next morning, didn't want to go to school. I said, “What's going on?” They said this, “We do not want to go to school and see PS [Protective Services] come and pick us up at school and embarrass us.” He told the story: “I knew that Mom and Dad loved me because [emotion in voice] we have been moved from place to place for stuff less than that. We knew they loved us.” That's Diego. Bob: Hey, Pop, we've got a little surprise for you. Dennis: There's something the audience knows that you don't. [Diego walks out] Aaron: Oh! [Applause] My goodness!  Diego: Love you, Pop. Aaron: I've been dreaming about this. [Applause] Bob: Diego, have a seat.  Dennis: Diego, have a seat right here.  Bob: We thought this young arsonist ought to come out [Laughter] and—tell these folks that morning when Pop said to you, “It is okay.” 18:00 Diego: Well, like he explained in the story—when we did burn the house down, [Laughter] we burned the house down! [Laughter] Honestly, man, we thought we were headed somewhere else. We thought we were going to another foster home or somewhere else. Man, when I tell you this—this man, after the house burned down—instead of coming to us, and fussing at us and stuff, he took us—the only place open was Walmart®—he just took us to Walmart—bought us some clothes to go to school the next day. So, we went to school. After school, we worked out. We didn't want to get back home because we knew that—hey, we were going somewhere else!  The next thing you knew—we were going to a different—of course, your mom's house—moving us into your mom's house and like we were there.  19:00 He was like: “Y'all are my boys. Y'all are engrafted in. There isn't anything you can do to separate basically my love for you.” [Applause] Just being six boys that never had the type of love that [he] and Momma showed us—that love—that was just so awesome. It transformed our life, man. It really changed our destiny and the things that we are doing in life now. [Applause] Bob: You probably don't know this; but Dennis has a favorite assignment that he likes to give to folks, like you, that I think you can probably improv this on the spot. Do you [Dennis] want to give him the assignment? Dennis: Yes. You just heard him, without addressing you, break down, weeping about his love for you, and how proud he is of you, and the privilege of loving you. You've got him, face to face. You've got a chance to give him a tribute. Would you like to do it? 20:00 Diego: Yes. I'll give him a little something-something. [Laughter] I'll give him a little something-something. So, of course, y'all know about “engrafted” and I heard—I think you said something about your engrafted son—I was listening in the back. This man—when we first came to his house, he said, “You are not foster children.” He said, “You are engrafted into my home.” He said, “I'm your Pop and everything that belongs to me, it now belongs to you.” We took advantage of it, too, [Laughter] because we were engrafted in. He said: “The same way with the Kingdom—now, you're engrafted into the Kingdom of God. Everything that belongs to God now belongs to you, Diego.”  Of course, I'm a gospel artist—I do gospel rap. I wrote a song called—I entitled my album Engrafted. It just reflects the love that he showed us and the love that God is showing me now. So, man, thank you Pops. I just love you! 21:00 [Studio] Bob: Well, we have had the opportunity today to hear a conversation that took place at the recent Christian Alliance for Orphans' Summit that was held in Nashville, Tennessee. For those of you who would be interested in seeing Diego Fuller do a rap song called Engrafted, we've got a link on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com to the music video that he has put together. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link in the upper left-hand corner of the screen that says, “GO DEEPER.” You will see information about the brand-new Engrafted music video from Diego Fuller.  There's also information, online, about the Christian Alliance for Orphans. If you'd like to find out more about their plans for next year's summit, follow the link on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com to the Christian Alliance for Orphans website. We also have resources available for those of you who are considering being foster parents or adoptive parents.  22:00 Look for the resources we have available when you go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com and click the link that says, “GO DEEPER.”  Maybe you're not considering adoption or foster care but you still have a heart for helping orphans in our world, we have information about different ways that individuals and churches can be involved in helping address the needs of orphans, all around the globe. Again, you‘ll find all of this when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the link in the upper left-hand corner of the screen that says, “GO DEEPER.”  Now, the month of August is a significant month for us, here at FamilyLife. It's actually the end of the year for us. We begin our fiscal year September 1st. So, we're about to close the books on fiscal 2015 and start a new year, fiscal 2016, in September.  23:00 The reason I mention that is because, when you get near the end of the fiscal year, one of the things you're always wondering is: “Will we have the money necessary to cover the budgeted expenses of this ministry?”  So, we're asking you to consider making a yearend financial gift during the month of August to help us finish out our fiscal year in a healthy spot. That's easy enough to do. You can go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link in the upper right-hand corner of our screen that says, “I CARE.” Or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY—make your donation over the phone. Or you can mail a donation to us at FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223.  By the way, when you make a donation right now, we'd like to say, “Thank you,” by sending you a book from Dennis and Barbara Rainey called Two Hearts Praying as One.  24:00 If you are making your first donation in 2015, in addition to the book, we'd like to add a prayer card that will help you know how to pray for one another in your family, especially when you're going through very difficult times, as a family. Again, all of that comes with our thanks for your support of this ministry.  Tomorrow, we're going to talk about heading back to school. Barbara Rainey is going to be joining us tomorrow. We'll tackle some of the issues that families face as they get ready to head back to school. Hope you can join us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2015 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

Christian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 1) - Bishop Aaron BlakeChristian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 2) - Diana PrykhodkoChristian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 3) - Bishop W.C. MartinFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. From Spiritual Scars to a Forever Family Guest:                         Diana Prykhodko                 From the series:       From Spiritual Scars to a Forever Family (Day 1 of 1)  Bob: For Diana Prykhodko, trying to figure out how to navigate life started earlier than it does for most of us—much, much earlier.  Diana: I was actually nine years old when I decided I needed to run away from my birth mom, because her abuse had escalated a particular night from bad to worse. She was very drunk one night, and she woke me up. She was really angry. She woke me up and said, “I need you to get up!”  She stormed into the kitchen, and she threw the pot of hot water all over me.  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, September 1st. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll hear today how Diana Prykhodko became a trophy of God's amazing grace. Stay tuned.  And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us.  1:00 We're going to leave our studio today and take you with us to an event where Dennis Rainey was recently—at the Christian Alliance for Orphans Summit—that was held earlier this year in Nashville, Tennessee. Dennis had a chance to sit down with Diana Prykhodko and hear an amazing story of God's love and care for orphans.  [Recorded Interview]   Dennis: We're going near the orphan. I thought of Job, Chapter 29, verse 12. Job gives his defense and talks about what he had done with his life—he said, “I delivered the poor who cried for help and the fatherless who had none to help him.”  We have a guest with us on FamilyLife Today who knows about people who have been obedient to what Job did. Diana Prykhodko joins us on FamilyLife Today. Welcome to the broadcast, Diana.  Diana: Thank you very much.  Dennis: Diana is—yes; you can welcome her. [Applause]   2:00 Diana is from the Ukraine. She has a great story of redemption, and I want you to take us back to your childhood. Tell us about the circumstances under which you grew up.  Diana: I grew up in Kiev, Ukraine. My birth mom was a single mom. We had no home/no place that we could consistently reside at. My birth mom was an alcoholic, a prostitute, and a drug user. She didn't know how to love me from the very beginning. As my earliest memory of her, she was very abusive verbally, emotionally, and physically. She took out a lot of her anger on me throughout my childhood.  Dennis: What do you remember most about those years growing up?   Diana: What I remember most was just the turmoil— 3:00 —the constant fear of her abandoning me, the constant fear of not knowing where we would sleep the next day / if she would find some guy for us to spend the night at his apartment and not knowing what that person would be like—just the ups and downs of an unstable home environment and the ups and downs of her anger.  And when she would drink, she was very abusive; but when she was sober, she was a totally different person. It was difficult for me to gauge and understand when she would be in a good mood or a bad mood.  Dennis: She ultimately had what would be the equivalent of a nervous breakdown— Diana: That's right.  Dennis: —and went to a mental hospital.  Diana: That's correct.  Dennis: Then, came back. You stayed with friends while she was gone. There was no other person to stay with.  Diana: That's right.  Dennis: What was it like when she came back?   Diana: Life was really chaotic. Her anger escalated. Things just went from bad to worse.  4:00 She was not protecting me / she was hurting me. She was drinking. She was trying to go to grocery stores and different places. She would hold my hand; and then, she'd walk away. I would be looking for her.  Dennis: You ultimately fled.  Diana: I did.  Dennis: You were how old when you ran away?   Diana: I was actually nine years old when I decided I needed to run away from my birth mom because of her abuse. Her abuse had escalated a particular night from bad to worse. She was very drunk one night. She woke me up and she said: “I need you to get up!  I want you to make me some borscht,”—which is a Ukrainian soup. We were poor. We didn't have anything. I said, “Mom, I don't really know how to cook; but I don't see any potatoes. I do not have the ingredients to make this food.”  Her anger just escalated so bad that she stormed into the kitchen, and she threw the pot of hot water all over me.  5:00 She ended up putting my face, with her whole weight bearing my face down on the burner on the stove. I tried to push her off of me, but her weight was more than I could bear. She ended up doing horrific things to me the rest of the night. I ran away from her after that episode because I knew that I could die with her— Dennis: Yes.  Diana: —or I could try on the streets, and I could try my luck and make my life better without her around.  Dennis: The streets for a nine year old—a nine year old girl. I mean, come on?  That had to be dangerous; huh?   Diana: It was very dangerous. I was on the streets for about a year. I found some friends. We ended up calling ourselves “The gang.”  We ended up filling our—it was our little circle, and we felt protected. We kind of took care of each other.  6:00 We would beg for money.  There were different ages. There was probably eight or ten of us, and we had a guy that was our leader. Then, we had the girls—we had the older girls / the younger girls. Our leader told the older girls needed to do the older girl things. The younger kids can just stand and beg for money. By the end of the night, we would get back together—bring in the money / bring in the food. He would decide what we would do with our resources that night. Most of the time, he opted out for buying us drugs or glue. We would sniff and get high and forget about the fact that we were hungry or cold.  Dennis: [Emotion in voice] I'm a grandfather of some nine-year-old granddaughters. I'm sitting here, listening to this, and I'm going, “That's not what children are supposed to experience.” I'm sorry. Your story goes on. Even in the midst of the streets, God protected you because usually little girls, like you, would die in the streets.  7:00 There was a place and a man who ended up being good, like Job, and who rescued you. Explain who Roman was.  Diana: When I was on the streets of Kiev, Roman was the man that started taking care of orphans. He started inviting us. I was very shy. I was very concerned about this first step, because I didn't know if I could trust; but I tried because I was desperate, and I had to give it one more try.  So, when I went to Roman, he and his volunteers—they introduced me to Christ. They fed me. They clothed me. They took care of me, and they loved me. They didn't expect anything back from me—they just let me go. Then, the next week, I would come back. Then, the next week, I'd come back; and there would be more children. Soon, before you knew it, there was a line of us fighting to get into this apartment.  Dennis: The apartment and the ministry ultimately became— 8:00 Diana: Father's House!   Dennis: The Father's House— Diana: Yes.  Dennis: —which is what you needed—was a father.  Diana: That's right. Amen!   Dennis: There was another angel sent to you from Springfield, Missouri.   Diana: That's correct. During my stay at Father's House, there was a man that came from Springfield, Missouri. His name is Bob Layman. Bob Layman came on a mission's trip. He looked at the orphanage / he looked at all of us kids, and God spoke to his heart about me. At the end of his trip, he went back home. God was just doing something in his heart.  Bob Layman started collecting funds and started collecting things—within his own family/ with his own little circle at his church. He took my picture, and he showed it to his family and to the local hospital—he said, “We've got to do something for her.”  When he went to this hospital and tried to get donations or anything they could do to help me, at first, they just kind of turned him away.  9:00 They said: “We cannot donate. That's a very large amount.”  Bob just left the picture of me on the desk of one of the doctors, and he walked out.  Dennis: What was their response?   Diana: When the doctor got back that day, he said, “Who is this?!”  The nurses and the people said, “Oh, there was just some man that came in yesterday asking for donations; but we don't know who this child is, and we're not sure who he is. We don't have his contact information.”  And that man said, “Find this man and find this child.”  And God opened the door after that.  They invited me to come to Springfield, Missouri, to receive medical attention because they had never seen such a severe case of a small child being severely burned. They donated all their services—the anesthesiologist, doctors, and surgeons, and nurses.  Dennis: Over a million dollars' worth— Diana: Yes!   Dennis: —of medical care.  Diana: And they took care of me. I stayed at the Ronald McDonald House while I was recovering from 18 plastic surgeries.  10:00 Dennis: Dental work?   Diana: I had dental work. It was from my neck up. I had no hair from where my birth mother burned me—they were third degree burns. They did an amazing job of making me look like a woman and feeling precious.  Dennis: Well, you're beautiful.  Diana: Thank you. [Applause]   Dennis: Diana, this is just a side note. I was born in St. John's Hospital.  Diana: Oh, wow!   Dennis: Yes. So, I know that area well. While you were recovering and going through all the plastic surgeries, you stayed with some families who showed you what a family was like. Ultimately, your visa ran out. You had to go back to Ukraine. It left a longing in your heart for a family. Not long after you were back at the Father's House again, there was another visitor.  Diana: There was another visitor—a very special visitor—by the name of Tara Quinn. She went to Father's House with her oldest son, Clay, on a mission's trip.  11:00 She came, and she walked through our orphanage, and walked through our Father's House. I was doing some homework in a particular room upstairs. As she walking through with the rest of the missionary team, she stopped and talked to me. I was very glad she was able to stop. I was very glad to share my life with her—I feel like God was opening my heart and opening her heart.  Dennis: Something was happening in your heart. You were longing for her to become your mom.  Diana: I was.  Dennis: And you didn't realize it, but the same thing was happening in hers.  Diana: That's right. And I remember when she had to leave that I was feeling like my heart was coming out my chest. I felt like I wanted her to be my mom so badly. I was longing for her to be that mother figure that would just love and cherish me and be there for me. When they left and they sat on the bus, I couldn't help it but run after that bus.  12:00 Dennis: Oh.  Diana: And I didn't know if I would ever see her again or not, but I sure prayed I would. After she left, I kept praying and asking Roman if there was a family for me or if it was too late. I remember one day when my prayers were answered. I got a phone call, and it was Tara Quinn. I remember that phone call very vividly. She asked me if I wanted to be adopted; and my answer was, “Yes!”  [Applause]   Dennis: You were how old at the time?   Diana: I was 15 years old.  Dennis: Fifteen.  Diana: Yes.  Dennis: That family pulled you in—made you their own. You think it'd be happily ever after, but it wasn't.  Diana: That's right. Now, that I had my family and I was able to have the home I'd always longed for— 13:00 —and I was able to create the memories I'd always wanted and have the brothers and all the drama of having a family—times weren't easy because, as I stayed in my family, I realized that I did not know how to love them back.  I had a hard time accepting their love; and because of my understanding at the time, I just continued to push my family away for some reason. They loved me, they adopted me, they gave me everything; but I was not able to give them what I knew I wanted to give them. But that was because my own heart was broken. God was molding, and fixing, and putting me in this family that's just my forever family.  Dennis: And you know, that's important for those of us, who've got a heart for the orphan. We need to realize that it takes time to heal a heart. You can invite someone in to be in the family, make them your own, and you feel like they're yours; but there are wounds that are unseen, and there are wounds that are seen that do take time to heal.  14:00 Ultimately, you rebelled.  Diana: I did. I rebelled against my parents. I rebelled against everything they taught me. I actually ended up telling my parents, one day, that I was just ready to move out. I was grown, and I was ready to do this on my own. I moved out. I went to live with my best friend, and I thought I was going to have life by the reigns and do this thing called life. And I was wrong!   Very shortly after moving out from home, finding out that I still needed the covering of my family—I needed the love, I needed the support, and I was not ready to be on my own—I found myself in desperation. I found myself needing my family. I ended up coming home—asking if I could come home— 15:00 —and my family accepted me back. They brought me back with open arms, regardless of the fact that I had said I wanted to go live by myself and “I've got this.”  My family invited me back. It was just like the prodigal son.  Well, a couple weeks after I'd gotten home, I found out I was pregnant. So, I rebelled against my family—just to the extreme. But my family has never given up on me. They have always loved me through this difficult time, where I broke my family's heart, and broke my mother's heart with the news of being pregnant outside of wedlock.  Dennis: I'm going to ask two of the three most significant people in your life, who happened to be here today—Roman, all the way from the Ukraine, and Tara, her mom—to come up on stage and just express a little love and appreciation.  16:00 Roman/Tara, where are you?  [Applause]  You [Diana] stay right here.  Roman, you've got quite a ministry going with orphans; but you've seen God work in one's life right here. Is there something you'd like to say to Diana?   Roman: For me, it's a big blessing. We invested to your family. Now, you are hero because you serve to the children. I, like, John Baptist who prepared road to Jesus in your life. Through you, God will do more with power and strength. You can do more than me / than our generation, because you understand each orphan and homeless child.  17:00 Bless you, Diana. I love you. Thank you, God, for you. [Applause]   Dennis: Tara?   Tara: Yes.  Dennis: It's your turn. Hold it together; okay?   Tara: [Emotion in voice] Yes; yes. A couple of things—a Scripture the Lord wanted me to share, when He was doing this work in my heart / in my family's heart, was Psalm 68, verse 6—says, “He sets the solitary into families.”  And Diana is our daughter / she's our forever daughter. She has a birth mother, but I'm her mother—I'm her mother, and she is my daughter.  These children need us. They need us.  Dennis: Yes.  Tara: They do. I'm so proud of her. She told a lot today, and I didn't ask her the questions of what she would share exactly.  18:00 I'm so proud of you for being able to release the ugly with the good and to let you know that you are God's daughter—not just our daughter—and that you are fearfully and wonderfully made and that you are perfect the way that you are, Diana. I love you / your family loves you.  This granddaughter's name is Alexis. She's six years old, and we adore her; and she's with us. I've been in prolife ministry for 25 years. This other family wanted to have our granddaughter aborted. Can you imagine that?  Somebody said, “Do they not know this family?”  I said, “Obviously not!”  [Laughter]  It's the God of life; and we're so glad for your life, Diana.  Diana: Thank you.  Tara: And you've made a difference in ours. [Applause] Diana: Thank you.  Dennis: You know it's too bad Bob Layman who helped you get to Springfield, Missouri, had other plans today.  19:00 I suppose he might be listening to these broadcasts someday. Is there something you'd like to say to him by way of appreciation?   Diana: I would love to say to him: “Thank you. Thank you for listening to God.”    Dennis: Could I stop you for just a second?   Diana: Yes.  Dennis: Bob, would you come out here?   Diana: Bob's here!  [Applause]   Bob: Do you remember that?   Diana: The pillow! [Laughter] Bob: Do you remember that?   Diana: Yes, I remember. Thank you.  Dennis: What's the story on the pillow, Bob?   Bob: So many people gave from the town I live in and from a town nearby. They brought so many things, but she was always attached to that pillow.  Diana: Thank you so much!  [Applause] Dennis: So, Diana, you have a chance to say it to him now.  Diana: Wow!   Dennis: What would you like to say?   20:00 Diana: I would like to say: “Thank you for listening to God. Thank you for being so in tune. Thank you for not giving up. Thank you for going and letting God use you. Thank you for just—I know that, maybe, at times, you felt like: ‘How can I make a difference?  I'm just one person.'  But you're just one person that God had to use. You were just that one person that God needed; and because of you and God's using you, I am here. I was waiting for you.”   Bob: I'm honored.  Diana: Thank you.  Bob: You're a sweet young lady.  Diana: Thank you.  Dennis: You're a hero for stepping out in faith and engaging a little girl—and so are you and you.  We started this by talking about seeds—planting seeds. One of the great lies, I believe, the devil of hell says to people is “You can't make a difference.”  21:00 You can—you can make a difference.  May I conclude our time by giving thanks?   Lord, God, You are the Great Redeemer. Thank You for chasing us down, and redeeming us, and adopting us into Your family, for still loving us, still pursuing us, still coming after us. And thank You for this magnificent story of perseverance, redeeming love, and of restoration of life. We give You the honor and the glory. In Jesus Christ's name; Amen.  Audience: Amen.  Dennis: Would you like to express your appreciation to these?  [Applause]   [Studio]   Bob: Well, we've been listening to an amazing story today—a story that was captured at the Christian Alliance for Orphans Summit that took place in Nashville earlier this year.  If you or anyone in your church has a burden for the plight of the orphan, adoption, foster care, let me encourage you to consider attending the Christian Alliance for Orphans Summit next May.  22:00 It's going to be May 4th and 5th. It'll be at Brentwood Baptist Church, just outside Nashville, Tennessee. There is more information available, and you'll find it when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the link for the Christian Alliance for Orphans. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com to find out more about the Christian Alliance for Orphans Summit next spring.  We want to take a minute and wish a “Happy anniversary!” today, to Jason and Violetta Perry. I think it s Víoletta—I don't if it's Víoletta or Vióletta—but the Perrys are celebrating ten years together as husband and wife today. They live in Fairfield, California—listen to FamilyLife Today on KFIA. They've been to the Weekend to Remember® a number of times. We just want to say, “Happy Anniversary!”    We think anniversaries matter and ought to be celebrated. We just recently celebrated our 40th anniversary, here at FamilyLife— 23:00 —had a great couple of days with friends and supporters, from all across the country, who came in for our two-day celebration. And it was good to pause and just reflect on what God has done over the last four decades in the ministry of FamilyLife. And I hope the Perrys will take some time today and just reflected on how God has been at work in their marriage over the last ten years.  We want to say, “Thank you,” to those of you who have made our last 40 years possible—those of you who support this ministry and who also believe that anniversaries matter and make a difference. Thanks for your financial support of this ministry.  And if you're able to make a contribution today, we would love to send you, as a thank-you gift, our 2017 FamilyLife calendar. I know you're thinking, “It's just September,” but the calendar actually starts in October of 2016. So, you can get it now and put it to good use before the New Year is here. The calendar is our thank-you gift when you go online to donate or when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY and make a donation.  24:00 Or you can mail your donation and request the calendar. Write to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223.  Now, tomorrow, we want to talk about the start of the NFL season and talk about what's going on behind the scenes to help provide spiritual care for the players and the coaches. We'll talk about the NFL chaplaincy program tomorrow. Hope you can tune in for that.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

Christian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 1) - Bishop Aaron BlakeChristian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 2) - Diana PrykhodkoChristian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 3) - Bishop W.C. MartinFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Miracle from Possum Trot Guest:                         W. C. MartinFrom the series:       The Miracle from Possum Trot (Day 1 of 1)  Bob: When the bishop at Bennett Chapel Baptist Church in Possum Trot, Texas, W.C. Martin and his wife Donna, decided they were going to adopt some children from the foster care system, they had no idea what was about to happen in their little town. W.C.: We don't have any Ph.D. folks at our church that can map out this and show you how to do that. We don't have that. But what we do have was just pure love that we can give a child. We just do the Word—like you just said, being a doer of the Word. This ain't about having a meeting to see if we want to do this. We just did the Word and gave God the GLORY for doing it! [Applause] Bob: This is a special edition of FamilyLife Today for Friday, November 25th. This program was recorded in front of a live studio audience. You'll hear our conversation today with W.C. Martin, and hear how revival almost broke out in the middle of the interview. Stay with us.  1:00 [Recorded Message] And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. Once again, we have got a wonderful live studio audience with us. We are here at the Christian Alliance for Orphans Summit IX! [Applause] Yes! [Laughter] And as I was thinking about what we're going to talk about today, I was thinking about one of your favorite quotes from Billy Graham. Do you know the quote I'm talking about? Dennis: I do. He said: “Courage is contagious. When one man takes a stand, the spines of others are stiffened.” We're going to hear a story today about a man and his wife who took a courageous stand on behalf of the orphan, and took God at His Word. I was reminded of this—a lot of Christians live their entire Christian faith out and never step out and never take this verse and the promise of what it means.  2:00 Listen to this—Ephesians, Chapter 3, verse 20: “Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly than all we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations forever and ever. Amen.” I think one of the great challenges for us, in this day, is looking around at a culture that has a target-rich environment for us to be salt and light in this world but, especially, as we address the needs of orphans. Taking on the issue of foster care and adoption, we need to be men and women, young men and women, boys and girls of faith, who take God at His Word and expect great things from Him. Bob: We're going to meet somebody today who caused the spines of others to stiffen by the courageous step he took. It's a story that has been told on Oprah, and the Today Show, and just about everywhere— 3:00 —not just here in the United States—but internationally. We want you to join us and welcome to the stage Bishop W.C. Martin. Would you welcome him? [Applause] Dennis: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, Bishop. You and your wife Donna have been married for 35 years.  W.C.: Yes. Dennis: You have six children, four of whom are adopted. Apart from that being the claim to your fame—I know that's number one, there, and your love for Christ—you are the bishop of Bennett Chapel in Possum Trot, Texas. W.C.: On the other side of Coonville. Bob: Known as what?—South Coonville? W.C.: On the other side of Coonville. [Laughter] Dennis: This goes back to 1996. Take us back to how this all started in Possum Trot. W.C.: Well, my wife's mother passed.  4:00 She had one of those community-type mothers—everybody coming to her house, and eat, and play, and everything. She had 18 brothers and sisters of them. Bob: Eighteen. W.C.: Yes, 18. On the passing of her mother, she said one morning, “Lord, if You can't take this burden from the loss of my mother, just let me die.” The Lord just spoke and said, “Give back.” God told us to adopt—foster and adopt. The whole thing started right there. We went to class. We had to take 12 weeks of Pride classes in Texas. Dennis: Let me just stop you for a second, though. This starts a lot of times—adoption—with our wives speaking into our hearts. W.C.: Yes. Dennis: A lot of us, as men, kind of get dragged into this. You had some fears.  W.C.: I sure did.  Dennis: You had some concerns. W.C.: I sure did; because she had kind of told me some other things and didn't follow through with it; you know? Bob: Ahhh. [Laughter] 5:00 W.C.: I said, “Here goes another one of them.” [Laughter] Dennis: “Can this marriage be saved?” I understand! [Laughter] W.C.: I said, “Here goes another one of them hair-brained ideas you're coming up with!” [Laughter] Dennis: I just want to remind you this is live radio, and Donna will be listening. W.C.: Oh! [Laughter] Bob: I just want to find out from the audience: “How many of you had husbands who said, ‘Here goes another one of her hair-brained ideas'?” Raise your hand. There are a lot of hands up here; yes!  W.C.: Well, good thing I'm not the only little boy on the block! [Laughter] Dennis: So what eventually won you over? W.C.: Well, I felt the calling of God. I felt, within myself, that this was what God wanted us to do—not even knowing what the outcome was going to be / not even knowing anything about this because I always thought that people—I didn't even know that there was such a thing as adoption, because I thought people always took care of their children. That's all I ever knew. I didn't think anything else, you know; because in places like Possum Trot, there was always a Grandmamma Yelma, or Aunt Pookanell, or somebody, when Mama died, you came in. [Laughter] 6:00 That's what I always thought; you know? I never knew anything different. So, that started it. What happened was—when we adopted our first little boy / little girl, named Mercedes, who had been in nine homes for one year. They didn't want us to have those children, because they figured that we were new in the business and new in the game—we could not deal with Mercedes and Tyler because they had such a bad record. But, then again, we showed them that we had Somebody on our side that they didn't know anything about. [Laughter and cheering] Don't start me preaching up here now; I don't want to do that! [Laughter] Dennis: We know it's going to happen! [Laughter] Mercedes was five and her brother was— W.C.: Three. Dennis: —three. Where had they been? Why were they in the foster care system? W.C.: Because their mother had gotten killed in Dallas, Texas, in a bad drug deal.  7:00 As a result of it, Mercedes had to end up being the mother and the father for Tyler. She ended up just developing this thing about stealing and lying. She could con a con artist herself; you know?—until— Dennis: Yes. W.C.: —until she met me. [Laughter] Dennis: Yes. This is what I want our audience to know—not that he can take over a liar—[Laughter]—but I want the audience to know that for all these drug busts we see on TV / the crime—there are kids involved. W.C.: There surely are. Dennis: They're going someplace. W.C.: Yes. Dennis: I know a family that, since they've been here at this event, in the past 48 hours, got a phone call at 1:15 a.m. to take care of five kids who had just been delivered to the sheriff's office, or the police station, and were sleeping on the floor because they had nowhere to go—all as a result of crime. W.C.: Yes. 8:00 Dennis: So we kind of make it out there; but when you go near the foster care system, you're going to find it's up-close and personal. Bob: I just want to know: “When you brought Mercedes and her little brother into your house, was it hard for a while?” W.C.: I think it was harder on them because Mercedes was used to just going from place to place. Nine homes in one year is a lot of places. Bob: Oh, yes. W.C.: She didn't trust nobody. That was the big problem Mercedes had—she trusted nobody—because she didn't know what trust was all about. She didn't know how to trust / she didn't know the first thing about trust. What we had to do was to win Mercedes and Tyler over. I figured that if we got Mercedes, Tyler was going to do whatever Mercedes said—that was the situation. It was a bad, bad situation; because she had experienced so much at a young age. Bob: How long did it take, and what did you do to win Mercedes over? W.C.: Showed them a lot of love— 9:00 —just loved them out of what they were in to show them that that was never God's will for them to have a life like that and that we are here. I told her—I said: “Mercedes, look. This is the last train to Georgia. You are not going nowhere. You might as well say, ‘This is it.'” And that was it. Dennis: You decided to adopt that quickly? W.C.: The way the state set it up—is that we had to foster for six months, with the intention of adoption after six months was up. Bob: And when you did this, word spread around Possum Trot what the bishop and his wife were doing; didn't it? W.C.: Yes; it spread it. By the same token, I'd been the person over our congregation. People now began to understand what adoption was really all about, not knowing in the beginning. I looked up every Scripture that I could find in the Bible. I learned that adoption was a God-thing, in the beginning. You know, if you look back—there was Moses was adopted / Esther was adopted.  10:00 A lot of people differ with me on this, but Jesus was an adopted child. I know there are other ways you can look at it, but He was an adopted child. [Applause] Dennis: Yes; and just to illustrate here—one of my favorite questions to ask an audience is: “How many of you, in this audience of almost 2,500 people, are adopted?” Hold your hands up. W.C.: Everybody! [Laughter] Dennis: Well, those of you who didn't hold your hands up, would you read Ephesians, Chapter 1: [Laughter] “…whom He predestined to become His sons”—and daughters—“through adoption.” W.C.: That's right. Dennis: The reason I think God calls us, as believers, to go near the orphan and to care for orphans is—it is God's heart / and it had better be, because we were lost and now we've been found. Bob: Now, you've got him preaching! See how this works?—back and forth! [Laughter]  Dennis: Yes. So what happened in your church? 11:00 W.C.: Well, after I got up and explained to the church what was going on, we started having families after families come and say, “I would like to do this, but I don't want…”—we had to drive 120 miles, round-trip, to take what they call Pride classes, that was a 12-week course. I had enough families—I went to the state and asked them, “Would they be willing to come to our church and teach the classes?”  Well, the lady said, “If you could go and find me eight families,” which they knew that was something that was just impossible to do—so they thought—but you know, God had another plan for it. What happened was—when I went and got the families, I carried a list back and laid it before her. When she unfolded the paper, I had 23 families on that list. [Laughter and cheering] Dennis: So what happened? She came? W.C.: She did! [Laughter] I don't know how many of you in here are case workers or ever did that before, but the work load that a case worker has to do is enormous!—  12:00 —you know, doing the home studies and doing the background history checks. That's a lot of work for anyone to do—and to say that she got 23 families now—that she's got to do all that work for. [Laughter] Dennis: At the time you started this, with 23 families—how many attended your church?  W.C.: We probably had about 85 families. Dennis: So a fourth of your church, back then, stepped up to care for foster care kids. W.C.: They stepped up, not having anything—because we didn't know / we didn't have a clue as to what was all involved. I did not know that there were children who had their own agenda and own ideas about where they were. I didn't know that they steal. I didn't know that they lie. I didn't know that they do stuff like that. I didn't have a clue about that.  Dennis: Right. W.C.: But they sent me to school, as well as gave me a Doctor's degree in child psychology! [Laughter] But by the same token, what happened—God had already taught us patience.  13:00 My oldest son—my biological son—is 29 years old. He was born with severe brain damage. So then, my brother thought that I had lost my mind. Bob: I am guessing Possum Trot is not an affluent community. W.C.: It's not. It's not at all, because it's a very poor community. One family that I have, right now: She had adopted five little girls / one of them was her child—she adopted five. Then, her sister died—she had got three. Then, her sister's husband died. Then, I went to the state because I did not want to see those children go back into the system in which they were fixing to come. I went to them and asked them, “What could we do to keep those children in the community?”  This family brought those children into their home. What she did—she raised 11 children in a trailer house. [Audience gasp] Bob: Wow. Dennis: You just raised an issue that I want our listening audience to be aware of. The church needs to realize the state is not the enemy when it comes to foster care. [Applause]  14:00 They really are—the state really is waiting, I think, for the church to come to them and to say: “We want to cooperate. We want to help you”; because the state doesn't know what to do with these children. They don't have homes for them to go into. They need someone to step up, and step forward, and say, “Give us—give us your children.” W.C.: Yes; that's right. That's right. See, that's what we did. We had a rough time in the beginning, because the school didn't know what to do about the children. But for the most part—I could say it like this: “If God is for you, who can be against you?” [Applause] It doesn't matter!  Dennis: Right. W.C.: It does not matter what goes on. If God calls you to this particular ministry, you are going to catch some slack, and you are going to catch some problems; but, ultimately, I can say you shall be victorious over everything that what they say:  15:00 “It can't be,”— with God, it can be; because the Scripture said, “I can do all things through Christ Jesus who strengthens me.” Bob: Now, you got him to preaching. See how this works? [Laughter] Dennis: Well, there's a reason why the school system felt the stress of what happened at Bennett Chapel. W.C.: Yes. Dennis: Share with the audience how many children have been adopted into families of your church. W.C.: We have, at this time, 76 children that have been adopted. [Applause and cheering] Bob: How has that changed Possum Trot? W.C.: It changed our hearts and opened our hearts up to let us know that God created it all. It's not so much what we're doing for ourselves—but what we're doing for others—because that's what Jesus did. Dennis: Right. W.C.: He went out of His way to show us that He loved us. What He wants us to do is follow that same trend and go all out of our way.  16:00 Adoption is a great thing. It's one of the greatest things that we ever can do, because we are only following what God has already started by adopting us. Back then, that was a part of the plan of salvation—was adoption. That's what we have to do, now. Everybody can't do it, but everybody can be a part of what God is doing in that arena of adoption. [Applause] Dennis: We sometimes think that we're doing the orphan a favor by going near and doing the noble thing of being a foster care parent or perhaps adopting. The orphan is certainly the recipient of love, but we don't realize how much we need the orphan to save us from toxic self-absorption. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Haven't you found that in your own life? W.C.: Yes, yes, yes—because Mercedes called my wife, the other day—she said: “Mamma, I don't know where I would be, because of the way my life was going, if it had not been for what you and Dad have done for me.  17:00 “I don't know how my life would have turned out.” Mercedes was a child that—she could steal you blind, tell the same lie a thousand times—never change her facial expression / never change one word of it—but she couldn't even count to ten. My wife used to spend hours, every day, putting pennies on the table to teach Mercedes. She taught her how to count to ten. Then, she taught her how to count to twenty, and just went on up. It ended up—Mercedes was an honor roll student in her class.  You know, God is showing us that these children have purpose in their life. They are just not—somebody—no; we are not doing them a favor, but I think they're doing us a favor; because what they are doing—they are teaching us some things about love that we don't even know. They are teaching us some God-kind of love—not just we are trying to love somebody—but they're teaching us something because those children really taught me what true love and pure love was all about— 18:00 —because we were reaching out, and bringing them in, and showing them a light that we were supposed to have been doing all the time.  This is something that every church on this earth needs to reach up and wake up: “If they can do it in Possum Trot, on the other side of Coonville—and they don't have no streetlights, don't have no street signs, don't have no hotels and all that stuff—we ought to be able to do it in our church.” Thank You, Jesus! [Applause, cheering, laughter] Dennis: I would imagine, right now, that every person, who is listening to this broadcast, goes to church. What is there unclear about the statement you just made? Go to your pastor, go to your elder board / your deacon board—whatever the structure is—and say: “Let's do something. Let's be doers of the Word, and be those who are about caring for the orphan.” W.C.: Yes; yes. 19:00 Bob: But don't just take it to the elders and deacons and say, “Here, you guys do something,”— Dennis: Oh, exactly, Bob. Bob: —because they have enough to do. You need to go and say, “We're here—ready to do whatever we can do to help this be a part of the culture of our church.” Dennis: And it's going to cost you.  Bob: Yes. Dennis: It's going to cost you 12 weeks of training, or whatever it is in your state.  W.C.: Yes; yes. Dennis: You're going to see a lot of red tape and a lot of system; but it's like: “If that's all the cause means to you and you're not willing to endure some things like that, then find something that grabs your heart.” W.C.: We don't have any Ph.D. folks at our church that can map out this and show you how to do that—we don't have that. But what we do have was just pure love that we can give a child. We just do the Word—like you just said—being a doer of the Word. This isn't about having a meeting to see if we want to do this. We just did the Word and gave God the GLORY for doing it! [Applause] 20:00 Dennis: And all of God's people said: Audience: Amen! [Laughter] Dennis: We're going to close the broadcast with a question; because I would like to know, “Out of everything you've done in all of your life, what is the most courageous thing you have ever done?” W.C.: I believe the most courageous thing that I've done, first of all, personally, was to accept Christ as my Savior. [Applause] That was number one.  And number two—I think that what I've done was to share me with so many children, all across this country. I'll continue to do that as long as God lets these legs move and lets this voice talk. I'm going to continue to let the world know that the church—the leaders / the pastor—we have a duty to perform before God. Don't let this go down as, “God got an indictment against the church for what He told us to do and we refused to do it.” That's a bad thing!  21:00 Let us, at this point, get involved / make a difference. Tell the pastor, “Look, we got to do this.” We, as pastors, are just like a mailman—we didn't write the letter, but we've got to deliver the letter. So what I'm saying to you: “Tell your people about adoption. If you can't do it, help them out to do it. Just do something!” [Applause] Dennis: Well, I want to thank you for being a courageous man— W.C.: God bless you. Dennis: —and for being a man who believes the God who is able to do exceedingly abundantly beyond— Dennis and W.C.: —all we can ever ask or think. Dennis: To Him be the glory for this generation and all generations. Bob: Would you guys thank Bishop Martin for joining us here? [Applause] W.C.: God bless you.   [Studio] Bob: Well, it's fun to listen back to our interview with Bishop W.C. Martin.  22:00 This took place back in 2013 at the Christian Alliance for Orphans Summit—a great event that is held annually in May. In fact, May 4th and 5th of 2017, the Summit will take place at Brentwood Baptist Church in Nashville, Tennessee. There's a good line-up on-hand. Ann Voskamp is going to be at the Summit this year / Andrew Peterson will be there. Of course, we'll be there, again, doing interviews for FamilyLife Today.  If you have a heart for orphan ministry—or for your church / if you're involved in orphan ministry—plan to join us at the Summit, May 4th and 5th, 2017, in Nashville, Tennessee. If you need more information about the Summit, go to our website, which is FamilyLifeToday.com. There's a link there that can get you all the information you need about next year's event. 23:00 Now, as the Christmas season is officially here—now that Thanksgiving is over—as you head toward the last few weeks of the year, I know some of you are beginning to think about yearend contributions to ministries, like FamilyLife Today. You need to know that all of the programs you hear on Christian radio look to this time of year as a significant time. What happens in the next few weeks really determines a lot about what our ministries will be like in 2017.  So I want to encourage you, first of all, as you think about yearend contributions, make sure that your local church is in first place in your giving. We believe that the local church ought to be your giving priority. Then, if there are programs on this station that have had an impact in your life this year, consider giving a yearend gift to one of those programs. If FamilyLife Today is one of those programs, we hope you'll consider a yearend contribution to this ministry as well. As I said, your financial support now determines a lot about what we can do in the months ahead.  24:00 We hope you'll prayerfully consider how you might support the programs on Christian radio that have ministered to you during the year 2016. And we hope you have a great weekend. I hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend, and I hope you can join us back on Monday. We're going to talk about how we keep Jesus at the center of our holiday celebration by remembering who He is and what Christmas is really all about. Barbara Rainey will be with us. I hope you can join us as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

A Life Worth Living (Part 1) - Elisabeth ElliotA Life Worth Living (Part 2) - Elisabeth ElliotFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. A Life Worth LivingDay 1 of 2 Guest:                        Elisabeth Elliott From the series:       What in Life is Worth Living For?        Bob:                Fifty years ago this week, five American missionaries were martyred by Quechua Indians in rural Ecuador.  Their deaths shook the world, but the legacy of their heroism continues to this day.  One of the people most profoundly impacted by those events 50 years ago this week is the widow of one of the martyred missionaries, Elisabeth Elliott, the wife of Jim Elliott.  As a young widow, she faced questions about the wisdom and the goodness of God, and she faced them head-on. Elisabeth:      Once upon a time, before you were born, there were, in Ecuador a tribe of so-called "savages."  Not very much was known about these people.  They were naked, they used stone tools, and they killed strangers.  One of the questions that people ask me more frequently than any other is how have you handled bitterness?  And usually they mean wasn't I bitter against God because of some of the things that have happened in my life.  Suffering is a gift.  Paul says, "Unto us it is given not only to believe but also to suffer."                         Is it worth it?  How many things can you think of that are worth suffering for?  He is Lord of my life, and when I asked Him, at the age of 12, to be Lord of my life, I turned over to Him all the rights.  There is nothing worth living for unless it's worth dying for. Bob:                And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition, Tuesday, January 3rd.  I don't know about the rest of our listeners, but just hearing that voice … Dennis:          You're speaking of Elisabeth Elliott. Bob:                Yeah.  She has always been somebody that – when I listen to her, I feel like I'm being encouraged and scolded kind of at the same time.  You know what I mean?  She just has that sense she's calling you to the highest that God would have for your life. Dennis:          She always did that in my life and, as you know, Bob, she has become a good friend of ours.  Elisabeth and her husband, Lars – well, she's just a great friend.  And what we wanted to do in featuring her on today's broadcast is take our listeners back some 50 years, because this Sunday, January 8th, is the 50th anniversary of the martyrdom of five young men who, by faith, flew back into the jungle to lead an uncivilized tribe of people who had never heard the name of Jesus Christ, and who ultimately were murdered on behalf of their faith.  And Elisabeth Elliott, of course, is the widow of one of those men, Jim Elliott. Bob:                And as some listeners know, Elisabeth made the courageous decision many months after that, to go back into that jungle and to continue the work that her former husband had begun, and she helped to lead a number of those people to Christ including some of the men who had murdered her husband.  And with that historical perspective in mind, we thought it would be good today for our listeners to hear some of her reflections on her husband, his faith, his character, on that time in her life, and on her interaction with the Waodani tribe in Ecuador back in the late 1950s. Dennis:          I think it's going to be a spiritual wheel alignment for some of our listeners who are right now walking through a valley of sorts.  Maybe it's the valley of the shadow of death, maybe it's circumstances that can't be defined or explained or even understood after reading the Bible, but God can be trusted, and that's what you're going to hear from Elisabeth Elliott.                           A number of years ago, we had the privilege of interviewing her talking to single people, interestingly enough, about the quest for love, and in that interview, Bob, as you and I talked to her, she started talking about how she viewed those circumstances surrounding the loss of her husband.   Elisabeth:      In Deuteronomy 8, Moses is reviewing the history of the children of Israel, and he says, "He suffered you to hunger in order that He might know what was in your heart."  And you remember that the children of Israel were wailing and screaming and complaining because they didn't have the leeks and onions and garlic and watermelons and fish that they'd had back in Egypt, and they were sick and tired of this stuff they got every day – manna.  And it says that a company of strangers came in and said, in effect, "Is this all you've got here?"  And so instead of the Lord removing the desire for leeks and onions and garlic, He caused them to hunger for this purpose – that He might know what was in their hearts, and I don't know any situation in which we are more likely to find out what is really in our hearts than where we have been deprived of something that we thought we should have.  And, of course, I was deprived of my husband, Jim, and the Lord was saying to me, "Now I want you to glorify me as a single woman again, and I am giving you this gift, and I want you to fulfill this calling faithfully, gladly, and humbly."                           I would just get down on my knees and just say, "Lord, you know what my natural feelings are about this but, Lord, I have surrendered them all to you long ago.  It was when I was 12 years old that I prayed Betty Scott Stamm's prayer – "Lord, I give up all my own plans and purposes, all my own desires and hopes, and accept Thy will for my life in acceptance lieth peace," and I know that's true.  It happened again when Ad [ph] was taken from me.  He was prayed over, he was anointed, we had people coming from across the country telling me they had a word of knowledge that God wanted to heal Ad Leach.  He died, and the Lord is saying, "So here is the gift of widowhood again." Dennis:          One of the themes of your books that seems to be in all of them is the call for the Christian to endure in the midst of suffering.  You believe the Scripture calls us to remain faithful in the midst of circumstances that aren't working out to what we wish they would. Elisabeth:      Suffering is a gift, Dennis, it is a gift.  Paul says, "Unto us it is given not only to believe but also to suffer," and Jesus referred to the cup that my father has given me.  What was in that cup?  He was reviled, He was persecuted, He was hated, He was mocked, He was captured, He was flogged, He was blindfolded, He was stripped, and He was crucified.  That was the cup, and we know that his human nature was in agony over that.  He sweat, as it were, great drops of blood in Gethsemane and finally said, "Not my will," he said, "If it be possible, let this cup pass."  The cup didn't pass.  It wasn't possible because He could not save Himself and save you and me. Dennis:          One of the most memorable stories I've ever heard you tell is the story of Gladys Aylworth.  It illustrates what we're talking about here in a most profound way.  Would you share that with our listeners? Elisabeth:      Well, Gladys Aylworth was a London parlormaid with no education, and she believed that God was calling her to China, and when her brother found her studying a map, he said, "Well, Glad, where are we going?"  And she said, "To China."  And he said, "Glad, you must be out of your mind," and she said, "Jehovah God has spoken to me, and I am going to China.  Well," she said, "I didn't know where China was, but I got a map, and I studied."                         Then she tells the long story of how she took a train all the way across Europe and Russia and Mongolia and China, and she ended up standing on the wharf in Shanghai, and she said, "When I was a child, I had two great sorrows.  All my friends had beautiful golden curls, and mine was black.  And when all my friends were still growing, I stopped.  Well, I stood on a wharf, and I looked over all these people to whom Jehovah God had sent me, and every single one of them had black hair, and every single one of them had stopped growing when I did.  And I said, 'Lord God, you know what you're doing.'" Bob:                I just love hearing her. Dennis:          It's a great story.  In fact, that is one of my favorite stories because what she is illustrating there is what life is all about – are you going to trust Him that He really does know what He's doing when you are in the middle of circumstances that can't be explained humanly.  And Elisabeth Elliott, as she went through adulthood continued to find herself in unexplainable circumstances. Bob:                She married again.  Her husband, Ad – she was married to him for four years.  He developed cancer and died.  She was single again for a number of years until she married her third husband, Lars, and she often said that she was single more years in life than she was married.  She also often said that Lars hoped that he'd outlast the other husbands. Dennis:          And, you know, Bob, it was that aspect of Elisabeth Elliott that really resulted in me inviting her to come speak at a conference we had for singles.  It was called "The Keystone Caper." Bob:                This was more than 20 years ago, right? Dennis:          Right, right, in Keystone, Colorado.  It was over Thanksgiving, it was for singles, and I really had a passion for speaking to singles about giving their lives to Christ and then following Him as Elisabeth Elliott had done, and we actually went back into the archives and dusted off pieces of five messages she gave at the Keystone Caper back in the mid-'80s.  And, I'm telling you, it's just as relevant today as it was to those singles 20 years ago. Bob:                And she exhorted those singles to trust God to be Lord – that He is Lord, and you need to trust Him that He does know what He is doing, and she elaborated on the story that she'd told us in the studio about John and Betty Stamm and the impact they had had early on in her life. Elisabeth:      He is Lord of my life, and when I asked him, at the age of 12, to be Lord of my life, I turned over to Him all the rights.  I prayed a prayer written by a missionary to China, a woman by the name of Betty Scott Stamm.  But this prayer made a very deep impression on my life, and I copied it into my Bible, and it has become a part of my prayer life.  It's really just an expansion on those simple words in The Lord's Prayer, "Thy will be done."                           "Lord, I give up all my own plans and purposes, all my own desires and hopes and accept Thy will for my life.  I give myself, my life, my all, utterly to Thee to be Thine forever.  Fill me with Thy Holy Spirit, use me as Thou wilt, send me where Thou wilt, work out Thy whole will in my life at any cost now and forever," and Betty Scott Stamm and her husband, John, were beheaded by Chinese Communists.  She had been a guest in our home.  You can imagine what a deep impression the news item made on a little child.  "Work out Thy whole will in my life at any cost" – and if you and I could speak with John and Betty Stamm today, do you think they would be thankful for the ways of God with them?  Their praises would be ringing, no question about that.                         "He is Lord of my life, He holds all the rights" – when my husband, Jim Elliott, was killed, the words that came to my mind when I first knew that he was missing were from Isaiah 43, verse 2 – "When thou passes through the waters, I will be with thee."  And when, five days later, I learned that he was, in fact, dead, the words that came to me were from a poem that I had memorized many years before by F.W.H. Myers, a poem called "St. Paul," and the final stanza says this – "So through life, death, through sorrow and through sinning; Christ shall suffice me, for He has sufficed.  Christ is the end, for Christ was the beginning.  Christ, the beginning for the end is Christ."                           My life verse is Philippians 1:21 – "To me, to live, is Christ." Bob:                You know, as Elisabeth commented on getting the news as a child that this couple that had been in their home had been beheaded as missionaries, she had no way of knowing that her own husband, years later, would be speared as a missionary; that this was going to be a part of the story of her life – this kind of heroic engagement, the surrendering of your life for the service of God.  It marked her life from an early age. Dennis:          And, Bob, the thing our listeners need to hear on this – I think there's two very, very important lessons to not miss.  Number one, life can't be found outside of the Lordship of Christ, period.  If you want to live life the way the Creator of the Universe designed it to be lived, it's lived submitted to Jesus Christ and His will for your life.  You're never going to find it anywhere else.                           I was just reflecting as I was listening to Elisabeth, I was thinking, I don't think we're talking enough about this.  In fact, I can't remember the last time I heard a message from Romans, chapter 12, verse 1 and 2, where it challenges us to not be conformed to the world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind and presenting yourself a living sacrifice to God, giving it all to Him, giving your life to Him, giving up all rights of your life to Him. Bob:                That's what sacrifice means.  You're dead to self and alive to Christ. Dennis:          And I think there is a need in our homes, husbands and wives, parent to child, to remind one another where life is found, and that leads me to the second point of application here.  I think our children need to be exposed to the great saints.  If you have a chance to have a missionary in your home, or a preacher, or someone who walks with God with great faith, seize that opportunity.  Don't go out to eat at a fast-food restaurant, don't go anywhere busy, go somewhere where you won't have any distractions, where you can have conversation for another hour after the meal is over, and don't let your kids go play Nintendo.  Even though they act like they won't be listening, they'll hear.                           And I think as a result of that, what will happen is what occurred in Elisabeth Elliott's life.  The children will be challenged to give their lives wholly and totally to the Lordship of Christ, and what will result there is when they grow up they will not waste their lives.  They will live their lives to the glory of God. Bob:                And this theme of the Lordship of Christ and abandoning your own life for His service was something that was a constant theme in Elisabeth Elliott's life.  Not only was it a life message because of what she had experienced with the martyrdom of her husband and the others back in 1956, but it was a theme that continued to permeate her ministry.  In fact, when we had her on FamilyLife Today a number of years ago, she reinforced again for us this idea that Lordship is everything.   Elisabeth:      Jesus said, "If you want to be My disciple – you don't have to be – but if you want to be, these are the conditions.  Number one, give up your right to yourself.  Now, of course, that's difficult.  It is the most difficult thing that God could ever ask of us, especially in today's climate, where everybody says, "It's your life, it's your body, you have a right to yourself, if it feels good do it, if it doesn't feel good forget it, don't let anybody tell you what to do," and Jesus quietly continues to say to us, "If you want to be My disciple, give up your right to yourself.  Secondly, take up the cross."                         Now, in what form is that going to be presented?  It is going to be presented in the form of suffering.  What else do we expect?  The cross is an instrument of torture.  Why should we be surprised?  So, of course, we are going to have to get down on our knees again and again and ratify that once-in-a-lifetime surrender.  As I said, I had made that surrender when I was 12 years old, but there isn't a day that goes by, Dennis, and I am not exaggerating – there's not a day that goes by in which I do not have to consciously take up the cross in some form or other – usually in many forms in any given day. Bob:                That's a great reminder from Elisabeth Elliott.  We, daily, have to take up our cross.  Dennis:          And, Bob, as she said, it has many forms, and yet it's still lived out in the midst of humanity.  You know, Bob, the reason we're talking about this 50th anniversary of the martyrdom of these five young men who gave their lives in Ecuador is because we want to, first of all, honor their faith and their courage, and Elisabeth Elliott and the other widows who embraced that trial as well.                         But there is a second aspect I don't want our listeners to miss because we have a number of singles who listen to this broadcast, a number of parents who are raising the next generation and, for that matter, we have some who are empty-nesters, who are in prime time, who I think need to take stock of their lives and evaluate how they are going to live the rest of their lives.                         And we want to challenge folks to consider – has he called you to invest your life in the mission field?  And it could be right where you're living.  You don't have to go around the world to Ecuador or into a jungle.  The jungle may be just down the street in a housing project near your home, or it may be in some areas of your community that just needs someone to reach out and touch marriages that are decaying and falling apart – or in your church.                         But let me tell you something – the needs of our nation in the spiritual realm are great, and today, more than ever, we need to be challenging adults as well as the parents who are raising the next generation.  Give your kids a picture of world missions, of what it means to go to the world, but the greatest news – forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ.  There is no greater privilege in life than giving your life for that cause. Bob:                I think you're right, we don't know what the Lord is going to call you to, whether it's here, whether it's there, but we do know what he's called all of us to, and it's what Elisabeth talked about today – to follow Him, to take up our cross, to die daily to our own flesh and our own desires. Dennis:          Then follow Christ. Bob:                To be about His mission, His agenda in the world today.  This past summer, I had my whole family watch with me the documentary that was made by the same company that produce the movie, "End of the Spear" that's coming out in a couple of weeks.  "End of the Spear" is a theatrical motion picture that is going to tell the story of the martyrdom of the missionaries.  It actually tells it from the perspective of the Waodanis, the tribe that did the spearing. Dennis:          Your children have to be old enough to read if they're going to go to the movie, because it's … Bob:                It's got subtitles.   Dennis:          Right.  It's not in English.   Bob:                But this summer, our family watched the documentary that was produced by the same company that tells the story of the martyrdom of the missionaries using historical archive video footage, photographs, interviews with those who were there, and it was a powerful evening.  We've got that documentary available on DVD.  It's called "Beyond the Gates of Splendor," and I'd encourage our listeners to get a copy of this DVD and to watch it as a family or to show it to the youth group at church, use it in a variety of settings.  It brings home the reality of what took place 50 years ago this week with the martyrdom of these missionaries.                           In addition, we have Elisabeth Elliott's book called "Through Gates of Splendor," which is her telling of that same story, which would be a book you could read to your children or a book that they could read on their own.  If you've never been acquainted with this story, maybe this is the first time you've heard about these events, Elisabeth's book is a classic.  It's one of those books that would be on my list of a book that every Christian ought to read.  Again, it's called "Through Gates of Splendor."  We have both her book and the DVD "Beyond the Gates of Splendor" in our FamilyLife Resource Center.                         Contact us by go online at FamilyLife.com.  Click on today's broadcast, and you'll find a link there to the various resources that are available.  You can order online, if you'd like, and if you order both Elisabeth's book and the DVD, we can send you at no additional cost the CD audio that includes the clips from Elisabeth Elliott we've been featuring here this week.                         Again, go to our website, FamilyLife.com, click on today's broadcast in the center of your screen, and that will take you right to the page where there is more information about the resources that are available from us here at FamilyLife Today.                         Let me, if I can, Dennis, just say a quick word of thanks to the folks we heard from at the end of the year.  Many of our listeners know we had a matching gift challenge in the month of December where every dollar we received was being matched on a dollar-for-dollar basis up to a total of $350,000, and I haven't seen the final numbers yet, but I do know we heard from many of our listeners, and I think it's safe to say at this point that we think we were able to take full advantage of that matching gift opportunity.  So thank you to those of you who called or who wrote or who donated online.  We appreciate your support, we appreciate you helping us meet the match, and we appreciate your ongoing investment in this ministry.                         Tomorrow we are going to be back with more insights from Elisabeth Elliott as she reflects on the events that took place 50 years ago this week with the martyrdom of five American missionaries.  I hope you can be back with us for that.                         I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. _______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. 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A Life Worth Living (Part 1) - Elisabeth ElliotA Life Worth Living (Part 2) - Elisabeth ElliotFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. A Life Worth LivingDay 2 of 2 Guest:            Elisabeth Elliott From the series:       Jim Elliott – "He is No Fool"        Bob:                This week on FamilyLife Today we are commemorating events that took place 50 years ago; events that shook a nation.  Here is Elisabeth Elliott. Elisabeth:      One day in October of 1955, Nate Saint flew into our station to tell us that he had discovered the Auca houses.  Within a very short time, Ed McCully, that politician from Wisconsin; Jim Elliott from Oregon; and Nate Saint instituted a program of dropping gifts to those Indians with the hope that they would be able to break down their hostility and prepare the way for an attempt to reach them.  You can imagine our excitement, our trembling, the prayers that went up.                         And on the evening in January of 1956, just before these men left to go into the edge of Auca territory – by this time they had been joined by Roger Youderian and Pete Fleming – they sang together that hymn – "We Rest on Thee, Our Shield and our Defender."  A week later they were all speared to death. Bob:                And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition – Wednesday, January 4th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey.  I'm Bob Lepine.  This Sunday, January 8, commemorates the 50th anniversary of the martyrdom of those missionaries in rural Ecuador, and, I don't know, do you remember where you were the first time you heard the story of those five missionaries? Dennis:          Bob, I was almost eight years old in Southwest Missouri, and I do not recall hearing about it as a little boy. Bob:                It did make the news. Dennis:          It did? Bob:                It was in "Life" magazine and other periodicals.  But you didn't hear about it until later in life? Dennis:          I heard about it finally in college, and it was through reading Elisabeth Elliott's book, "Through the Gates of Splendor," and, for me, as a college student, to get that book and have it be such a page-turner – I had just given my life to Christ, and I think what made it compelling reading for me, as a collegian, was that I was 20 years old, I was looking at life with eyes that were alive to the spiritual work of God in human beings' lives, and I had freshly given my life to Christ, and His Lordship of all the areas of my life, and so here is a couple, Jim and Elisabeth Elliott, who had given their lives to Christ and his Lordship, and Jim Elliott gave his life, literally, was martyred for his faith, and then Elisabeth, his wife, went into that tribe after he had been murdered by them to love them, speak with them, learn their language and customs and ultimately share her faith in the Gospel and his forgiveness with them. Bob:                That book that you mentioned, "Through Gates of Splendor," is a book that God has used over the years in remarkable ways to not only tell the story but to talk about what it really means to live with Christ as Lord, and I think it's probably stirred the hearts of a number of people who have ended up involved in world missions in some foreign field, carrying on the legacy of Jim Elliott and Nate Saint and the others who were killed on the beach on January 8, 1956. Dennis:          And I'm glad, Bob, there's now been a full-length feature movie that has been made called "The End of the Spear," that's going to be released here in a couple of weeks.  It's a great movie.  You and I have seen it together and, personally, I think what's going to happen as this film comes out is the very thing we've been talking about here – I think there's going to be a generation of young people who see this story and who, all of a sudden, start evaluating their faith.                           Now, I think adults are going to do the same, but I think there's going to be a generation of young people in youth groups, in junior high, high school, and college, and they're going to evaluate what they're living for and who they're living for.  And as a result, I think we're going to see a fresh crop of missionaries head to the world.  At least that's my prayer as this film comes out. Bob:                You were in the audience in Kansas City in 1983 when Elisabeth Elliott addressed a crowd of students who had assembled there for an event that Campus Crusade was sponsoring called "KC '83," and she talked about those five young men, who were all in their 20s.  They were at the beginning of their adult life, and they had headed off to the field.  She described their lives, and I think what she did was she painted a picture so that everyone in the audience could go, "That could be me."                           We wanted our listeners to hear how she described the lives of those five men who were martyred that day 50 years ago this week. Elisabeth:      Once upon a time, before you were born, there were in Ecuador, a tribe so-called "savages."  Not very much was known about these people.  They were naked, they used stone tools, and they killed strangers.  Nobody had ever gone into their territory and come out alive.  Missionaries had been praying that God would enable them someday to take the Gospel to these Aucas, but it had never happened, and it wasn't until 1956 that the first Operation Auca was attempted.                         Five young American men banded together to do this.  I want to tell you a little about who they were and how they got there.  First, there was Nate Saint from Philadelphia, one of the founders of the Missionary Aviation Fellowship.  He inaugurated the program of jungle flying in the Eastern jungle of Ecuador.  Pilots who have watched film footage of some of Nate's landings on those canyons of green trees in the jungle have said that it's impossible.  Nate was a genius; he was a rather slightly built blond guy with a terrific sense of humor; a creative imagination; and an almost fanatical discipline and caution as a flyer.                         Then there was Roger Youderian, a cowboy from Montana.  He went into World War II as a paratrooper; was wounded; and somehow he ended up in the Eastern jungle of Ecuador working with the Jivaros, those Indians that you've heard of who used to shrink people's heads and put them up on poles around their houses or wear them on their belts – really nice guys.                         The next man was Pete Fleming from Seattle, Washington, an earnest, scholarly type who had a master's degree in literature and planned on an academic career.  God had another plan for Pete, and Pete ended up in the jungle of Ecuador working with the Quichua Indians reducing their language to writing and beginning the rudiments of Bible translation.                         Ed McCully was a guy that I knew in college, and when I think back, there is hardly anybody who seemed less likely to me to become a missionary than Ed McCully.  He was handsome – good looks can open a lot of doors, but I don't think they'll get you very far on a mission field.  Doesn't it seem like kind of a waste?  I mean, here was this guy, six-feet-three, football player, track star, president of his class, and when the Hearst newspaper chain sponsored a nationwide oratorical contest, there were 20,000 entrants.  Just picture everybody that's at KC '83 entering that oratorical contest.  Ed McCully won first place.   He was smooth.  We thought he'd make a great politician.  That's what he was going to be.  He had charisma, and he went to law school.  But God changed his mind after he got into law school and somehow he, too, ended up in some God-forsaken corner of the Eastern jungle of Ecuador – again, a missionary to the Quichuas.  Why would a guy like that bury himself in the jungle?  Couldn't he find more fruitful ways to use his gifts?  All those talents that God had given him?  Wasn't that an awful waste?                         Well, yes, it was, if, what matters to you is self-image, fame, money, success, a terrible waste.  The backwoods isn't really a very auspicious place to pursue those kinds of things.                         Then there was the fifth man, one I got to know pretty well.  His name was Jim Elliott. Bob:                We're going to hear more from that message at KC '83 in just a few minutes but, of course, Jim Elliott, the one that Elisabeth got to know was her husband for a little more than two years.  He had been president of his class at Wheaton College.  He was from Portland, Oregon, and she tells the story of her romance and her marriage to Jim Elliott in her book, "Passion and Purity," which has been read by hundreds of thousands of people.                         But these five men – Jim and Roger and Pete and Ed and Nate – they are heroes, do you think? Dennis:          They are, and when Elisabeth Elliott spoke in KC '83, which was a gathering of college students from all across the country – it was spitting snow outside, but it was warm inside.  It was a huge, cavernous, almost like a warehouse, but they had set up this convention with Elisabeth Elliott speaking to these collegians, and she shared how these young men gave their lives for their faith. Elisabeth:      You don't just decide one Tuesday morning that you're going to be a hero of the faith.  There has to be a period, a long period, maybe years, of learning to walk humbly in obedience with God.  You put one foot in front of the other, one step at a time, one day at a time, year after year beginning now.                         Is it worth it?  One day in October of 1955, Nate Saint flew into our station to tell us that he had discovered some Auca houses.  Within a very short time, Ed McCully, that politician from Wisconsin; Jim Elliott from Oregon; and Nate Saint instituted a program of dropping gifts to those Indians with the hope that they would be able to break down their hostility and prepare the way for an attempt to reach them.  You can imagine our excitement, our trembling; the prayers that went up.                         And on the evening in January of 1956, just before these men left to go into the edge of Auca territory – by this time they had been joined by Roger Youderian and Pete Fleming – they sang together that hymn "We Rest on Thee, Our Shield and our Defender."  A week later they were all speared to death. Man:               The Waodani are killing so many people, the government is under pressure.  They're going to bring in troops.  We have one chance to reach these people now – this is it. Man:               When a life is taken, we call it a tragedy. Child:              Will the Waodani attack?  Will you use your guns? Man:               My life is freely given, a sacrifice. Elisabeth:      Why?  Two of the men who killed them are friends of mine now.  Their names are Mincaye and Kekita [ph], and they made tapes for me telling me everything about what had happened that afternoon on the beach, and they said they thought the men were cannibals. Man:               Ninkiwi [ph] and the young woman that was there at the friendly contact, and Ninkiwi wanted to marry her.  Nampa [ph] really didn't want that to happen.  When they found them coming back from the friendly encounter, the tribe flew into a rage.  They wanted to kill Ninkiwi, Nampa certainly did.  The Akita [ph] saw this, the Ninkayani [ph] saw this, Jewi [ph] saw this, and they redirected the anger, which is something about their culture.  You get angry, you're out of control.  The way you affirm control is to kill.  So they redirected their anger toward the missionaries, and that was ultimately why they attacked and killed the five men. Elisabeth:      Why would God allow a thing like that to happen?  He was their shield, their defender, and He let them get speared to death.  What had happened?  Can your faith cope with a set of facts like this?  There is a mystery here, but it is not unprecedented.  Go back to Hebrews 11 – and following all those wonderful triumphant accounts, we read, "And others were tortured."  They faced jeers and flogging, fetters and prison bars, they were stoned, they were – listen to this – sawn in two.  Talk about endurance.                         Is it worth it?  Is it worth it?  How many things can you think of that are worth suffering for?  There is nothing worth living for unless it's worth dying for.  Have you made up your mind?  The world is stunned when the news of the death of the five men hit the headlines.  People did not know that there were still stone-age savages around.  I suppose that's one of the reasons they were impressed.  And then people realized that there could still be ordinary young men for whom obedience to Jesus Christ was quite literally a matter of life or death.                         There was plenty of editorializing about it.  The secular press called the blankety-blank fools.  The Christian press did a lot of very glib explaining of why God would allow a thing like this to happen.  The verse that brought assurance to me was 1 John 2:17 – "The world in all its passionate desires will one day disappear, but the man who is following the will of God is part of the permanent and cannot die." Bob:                As Elisabeth was retelling the story of the death of those missionaries, we included some of the sound track that comes from the movie, "End of the Spear," that's being released – I think it's two weeks from Friday the movie is going to be released, and that movie portrays the events of 1956 and actually takes you back before 1956 to tell about the Waodani tribe and then brings it up to date.  It brings you to the point where Steve Saint, one of the children of those martyred missionaries goes back and makes contact with the tribe and finds out how the spearing took place, why it took place, and actually finds out who it was that killed his father, and that man becomes his friend.  That man is now a Christian.  It's a powerful story. Dennis:          Steve Saint ended up going back to live among that tribe as well.  Frankly, Bob, you and I have interviewed a lot of folks where you just kind of feel like, you know, I felt unworthy.  I've given my life to following Christ in 35 years of vocational ministry, but you meet somebody like that, who left the comfort of living on the East Coast and taking his family and going back into the jungles of Ecuador and living with the tribe and, as you said, befriending the man who ended up murdering his father is just a remarkable story of faith.                         One of the things we've done is we've put together, from a number of sources, some of the descriptions about Jim Elliott by his wife, Elisabeth, and his faith, and we thought you'd enjoy hearing this montage of audio clips, as Elisabeth Elliott describes the man who gave his life for Christ. Bob:                And our intent here is not to single out one of the five missionaries, but because of her writing and speaking, we probably know more about Jim than we do the other four.  But, again, all five of them are heroic and courageous. Elisabeth:      I want to tell you a little bit about that missionary, Jim Elliott.  I knew him when he was a college student.  He had made up his mind that he wanted two degrees – a bachelor of arts, which the college was qualified to confer; and an AUG, which the college was not qualified to confer.  The one he wanted most was AUG, "Approved Unto God."  He got that out of the Apostle Paul's letter to Timothy, and he had made up his mind what he wanted to live for.                         Jesus, for the joy that was set before Him, endured a cross.  Making light of its disgrace and has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of God.  He made Himself nothing.  Jim Elliott wrote in his diary when he was 22 – "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."  Were those men really out of their tree to do what they did?  In Hebrews 12 it says, "What of ourselves?  With all these witnesses surrounding us like a cloud, we must throw off every encumbrance, every sin to which we cling, and run with resolution the race for which we are entered, our eyes fixed on Jesus on whom faith depends from start to finish.                         Jim Elliott was a man with tremendous gifts; a man who could undoubtedly have been a great success in probably quite a few different professions; a man whose friends and relatives thought he was crazy to go burying himself in some God-forsaken corner of the jungle just to talk to a few ignorant Indians when he had such a powerful testimony and a great "ministry" in this country among young people.  But Jim's life was not his own.  The verse that he wrote in my yearbook was 2 Timothy 2:4 – "A soldier on active service does not entangle himself in civilian affairs.  He must be wholly at his commanding officer's disposal."  Him was disposable.                         And here is the crux of the matter – and, by the way, did you know that the word "crux" means cross?  Did you know that the word "crucial" comes from the same root?  Until the world and the affections are brought under the authority of Christ, we have not begun to understand, let alone to accept His Lordship.                         God is saying, "I have something infinitely better for you than you can imagine.  Will you trust me?  Will you wait?  Will you obey me?"                         Lord, I give up all my own plans and purposes, all my own desires and hopes and accept Thy will for my life.  I give myself, my life, my all, utterly to Thee to be Thine forever.  Fill me with Thy Holy Spirit, use me as Thou wilt, send me where Thou wilt, work out Thy whole will in my life at any cost now and forever."                         What do you live for? Bob:                Once again, that's Elisabeth Elliott reflecting on her husband, Jim, who, along with four other men, was martyred in 1956, 50 years ago this week, and we felt like it was important for listeners to hear that story again, maybe some for the first time.  There are probably some folks who have been unaware of this story and will want to get either a copy of Elisabeth's book, the one that you read when you were in college, "Through Gates of Splendor," or the DVD of the documentary that is called "Beyond the Gates of Splendor."  We have both the book and the DVD in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and the easiest way for listeners to become acquainted with all that took place in those events is to get the book and get the DVD.                         You can go to our website, FamilyLife.com, click where it says "Today's Broadcast," right in the center of your screen, and that should take you to a page where you can get more information about these resources.  And if you order both the book and the DVD, we'll send you at no additional charge, the CD audio that features the excerpts we've been listening to this week from Elisabeth Elliott.                           Again, our website is FamilyLife.com, click the button in the middle of the screen that says "Today's Resources," and go there to find out more about the documentary, "Beyond the Gates of Splendor," about the book, "Through Gates of Splendor," and there is a link on our website as well that will give you more information about the movie that's coming out in a couple of weeks called "End of the Spear."  You can watch a trailer for that movie, get more information about the release of it.  I think it is January 20th that it's going to be in theaters, and we hope families will attend that movie, "End of the Spear."  1-800-FLTODAY or, again, the website is FamilyLife.com.                         And, once again, Dennis, I want to say thank you, I know you do as well, to those folks who pitched in at year-end and made a contribution to us here at FamilyLife.  We heard from many of our listeners, and I know our team is still going through and trying to open up some of the mail that we received so that we can issue a formal thank-you note to those of you who contributed at year-end to FamilyLife Today.  We really do appreciate your generosity, and I think it is safe to say at this point that we were successfully able to meet the match and take full advantage of the $350,000 match that we had in December – so thanks to all of you who pitched in.  We appreciate you standing with us and appreciate your ongoing support of this ministry.  Thanks for helping keep us on the air here in this city and in cities all across the country.                         Tomorrow we have a special guest joining us.  He is the son of one of the men who was martyred as a missionary 50 years ago this week.  Steve Saint is going to be with us along with the man who helped make the movie that tells the story of Steve's dad's martyrdom, the movie, "End of the Spear," Mart Green, is going to be here as well.  And we have a surprise guest who is going to be here with them, and we hope you can be back with us.                         I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. ______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com                 

A Biblical Look at Aging (Part 1) - Howard HendricksA Biblical Look at Aging (Part 2) - Howard HendricksFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. What Retirement is NOTDay 1 of 2 Guest:                           Dr. Howard Hendricks From the Series:         What Retirement is NOT________________________________________________________________ Bob:                There are challenges associated with moving into the retirement years.  Many of us have never thought that far ahead.  Here is Dr. Howard Hendricks. Howard:         Retirement has four major problems attached to it, the first of which is income – the financial component; the second of which is health – the physical component; the third of which is housing – your living arrangements; but the fourth and the most important is purpose, meaning, an interest in life.  And the fascinating thing to me, and all of the research proves it, is we're making tremendous progress in the first three, but substantially none in the fourth, because it's the least recognized, and it's the most neglected. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, January 18th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  Have you started yet thinking about your purpose and your plan for your retirement years?  Stay tuned.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition.  Whenever you hear that voice, whenever you hear Howard Hendricks' voice, you've just got to get a big grin on your face, don't you? Dennis:          I do, and the reason is he's one of those men who has marked my life over the past – well, I go back all the way to 1970 when I first started slipping into his class as a college student and then as a new staff member on Campus Crusade for Christ staff.  I'd slip in the back of the class at Dallas Seminary … Bob:                You mean you weren't enrolled or anything?  You just snuck in and listened to what he was … Dennis:          Shhhhhh – they'll probably want to charge me.  They got my tuition later on. Bob:                You enrolled, and you took – you said you majored in Hendricks. Dennis:          I majored in Hendricks and got everything he taught in one year, and, folks, if you have ever had a great teacher, you know that great teachers can really mark your life, whether it's a coach, a professor, a Sunday school teacher – they really can impact you.  And Dr. Howard Hendricks who was, for a number of years, the professor of Christian education at Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas, Texas – "Prof" as he was known – really is – he was the finest teacher I've ever sat under, but he was more than just a professor.  He was a man who understood how to motivate men and women. Bob:                Do you remember what it was the first time you heard him teach where you said, "I want to hear more?"  He's a compelling speaker, he's very winsome, but there must have been something about what he was saying or the way he was expressing himself that caused you to go, "This is a man I want to hear more from.  I want to learn and grow." Dennis:          He had the goods.  In all my years at Dallas Seminary, I took five classes from him – not a boring class.  Now, I want folks to think about that – that's a lot of classes.  He was on the edge; he had the message; his wife authenticated his message; and he knew how to challenge and motivate young men who sat in those classes back then; now, young ladies as well, are being motivated by him.                         But he became a good friend.  In fact, we were just laughing the other day when I did a conference with him, and it's one of the great honors of my 34 years of ministry to have teamed up with him now on a couple of occasions for some conferences for Dallas Seminary.  But we were just talking at one of those conferences – I set a record for the most number of laymen brought to his class when I was a student.  I'd bring them in from the highways and the byways and the hedges. Bob:                So you used to sneak in and then, once you enrolled, you started sneaking other guys in? Dennis:          I brought other guys in.  I want to show you how to drink water from a fire hydrant, and Dr. Hendricks is, indeed, a fire hydrant.  And you and I both know, I ran across a series of messages that I'd never heard him give.  It was actually a lectureship sponsored by Dallas Seminary a number of years ago on aging.  And I first said, "You know what?  I want our speaker team that speaks at our Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences to hear this series," and then I thought, "You know what?  I want you, as a listener, to hear this."  Because I don't think most of us have a very good perspective about aging and retirement and some of the issues we're going to face as we grow older. Bob:                Now, listen, some of our listeners are in their 30s.  Do you think this is going to apply to them? Dennis:          Oh, absolutely.  You know, in fact, if you go to the book of Ecclesiastes, I think it's chapter 12, the author says, "Remember God in the days of your youth," and then he goes on to describe old age.  It's kind of like, now wait a second, you're talking about old age, but why do you exhort us to remember God when we're young?  Well, I think the answer is your understanding of walking with God today as you're young will determine who you become when you're an elderly man, an elderly woman.  And I'm kind of on a little bit of a crusade and a soapbox about wiping out crotchety, gripey, complaining old men and bitter old ladies.  You know, I think we've got enough of them.  I think if anybody ought to have a smile on their face, it ought to be those of us who grow old with Jesus Christ. Bob:                Well, this week, we're going to hear one of the three messages that Dr. Hendricks shared with the FamilyLife Weekend to Remember conference speaker team on the subject of aging, and he was really talking about retirement, which he says is not a biblical concept in the way that most people think about retirement.  Let's listen together.  Here is Dr. Howard Hendricks. [audio clip] Howard:         I want to talk on rethinking retirement – one of the greatest transitions in human experience.  Norman Cousins said it – "Retirement supposed to be a chance to join the winners' circle, has turned out more dangerous than automobiles and LSD.  It is the chance to do everything that leads to nothing.  It is the gleaming brass ring that unhorses the rider.  For many people, retirement is an assignment to no man's land, grossly ill-fitted for Christian culture.  We are producing men and women, a society of unemployed people without a mission, the equivalent of a death sentence."                         It is proven by statistics – we now know that the average person dies within seven years after retirement and increasingly that figure is being changed because it is not uncommon for people to die two years after retirement, and the reason is clear.  There are two lines in every person's life.  There is a lifeline, and there is a purpose line, and the moment the purpose line evaporates, it is just a question of time before the lifeline goes as well.                         Bear in mind that retirement is a recent social phenomenon – the arbitrary age of 65 was set in 1889 by German Chancellor Bismarck, but what has always fascinated me is at that time in history the life expectancy was 55.  So the bulk of the people for whom it was designed never enjoyed the benefits.  And increasing it, as the United States has done, is just as ridiculous.                           Every now and then I hear someone say retirement is not a biblical concept, and it's quite transparent to anyone who knows the Scriptures that it is not the pattern for a born-again, eternally headed individual.  But it's only partially true.  We do have one reference to retirement in the Scripture, and it's found in Numbers 8, verses 25 and 26, where we are informed that the Levites were to retire at age 50; the reason being the task was so arduous, so strenuous that men in the intelligence which God alone provided, said you need to give up the physical ministry of the priesthood.  But what is often overlooked is that He gave them an option.  He said, "I want you to spend the rest of your life mentoring younger priests."                         Now, you may retire from a job.  You may not have the option.  But you never retire from life; you never retire from a ministry.  Stepping into retirement is stepping into entirely different universe with a distinctive lifestyle all of its own.  And I am convinced that this particular transition is, to the believer, one of the highest measurements of your spiritual maturity.                         So today I want to move into two areas.  First of all, examine retirement negatively – what it is not; and then, positively, what it is.   Let's begin with the power of negative thinking, with apologies to Norman Vincent Peale.  I find Peale appalling and Paul appealing.  The more I am exposed to the Christian community, the more I am convinced that some of the sloppiest thinking in all of time totally infects Christians who move into retirement.  So let me give you seven things retirement is not.                         First of all, it is not a reward.  Your reward comes in heaven not on earth.  But many people think it's a reward for good behavior, and the result is they spend their years sliding for home, reaching for the bench at the very time they ought to be tearing the place apart for Jesus Christ. Secondly, it's not a formula.  There is no one-size-fits-all retirement available.  It's a process, but it's a process that is highly individual.  There is no contract that spells out the details and the conditions.  There is no blueprint showing you the way.   Third, retirement is not a retreat.  As a matter of fact, it is exactly the opposite – it is intentional advance, but the key is it involves a gradual adjustment. Number four, it is not, not busy work – something to give you something to do.  It's a balance between leisure and work.  Isn't it amazing how often we suffer from the peril of the pendulum?  We swing to one side or the other.  Throughout our life, we constantly face the danger of worshipping work as an idol, but now we worship leisure as an idol.  And is it any wonder that John finishes an epistle by saying, "Keep yourself from idols."  Number five, it is not self-centered; it's not socially pigging out getting lost in an entertainment glut.  Retirement is meant to be more than for my benefit, and I think that's why an increasing number, even of secular people, are retiring from retirement.  The one positive thing about the baby boom is they live long enough and watched enough older people waste the latter years of their life that they are refusing to go that route.  They are asking for more time for employment where at least it gives them worthwhile to do.  Six, retirement is not guaranteed.  There is no guarantee that those latter years of your life will be successful.  They are the bonus years, but they all depend upon two things – God's part and your part.  No question that God will come through with His part.  The question is, will you and I come through with our part and ultimately that depends on how well prepared you are. And, seventh and last, retirement is not death – we have 100-percent probability on that.  Retirement has four major problems attached to it.  The first of which is income – the financial component; the second of which is health – the physical component; the third of which is housing, your living arrangements; but the fourth and the most important is purpose, meaning – and interest in life.  And the fascinating thing to me, and all the research proves it, is we're making tremendous progress in the first three but substantially none in the fourth, because it's the least recognized, and it's the most neglected. [end audio clip] Bob:                That's Dr. Howard Hendricks talking about some of the challenges that come with aging, specifically the issue of retirement.  It sounds like he could write "The Purpose-Driven Retirement," huh?  I think there's a hit book there for him. Dennis:          I think there is.  You know, what he's challenging us to do is to not think about our retirement in a worldly way, but to think about it in a spiritual, in a biblical way.  And our listeners are going to hear a series later on this spring, as Barbara and I talk about moving from the empty nest into what we are calling "prime time," and I think retirement needs to be prime time.  We need to have that purpose that Dr. Hendricks was talking about.  We need to have realigned our lives in light of the mission God has for us, and we need to get on with life.  We need to be about His work on this planet, because the person who has unplugged from their vocation has some additional time, theoretically, to be able to invest in some eternal pursuits that he may have never had in his or her life before. And I think knowing your purpose, knowing your mission, knowing what your life is all about, is very important, and I'd like to submit to you that Homebuilders, a small group Bible study, ought to be a very attractive ministry for a lot of couples who are moving into this phase of life, into prime time, and they are needing to sink their teeth into something purposeful – something that's going to make a difference for future generations.  Homebuilders is a small-group Bible study that I think can be used in the lives of young couples who are starting out their marriages, their families, and who are going through their own seasonal changes in their family who need help from an older generation. Bob:                And you're thinking that young couples would want to hear what a retired couple has to say about marriage? Dennis:          Absolutely.  I'm younger than some folks who are in this phase right now who are speaking truth and speaking vision and modeling certain realities to me, as a man.  I think all of us ought to have others who are a lap or two ahead of us in the race of life, who can guide us and direct us and make sure we don't waste any of our lives. Bob:                Retirement is not a move from productivity and work and meaning to leisure and enjoyment and recreation.  It's a move from one set of priorities to a new set of spiritual priorities, a new set of spiritual goals that you now have some free time for that you didn't have when you had to punch the clock every day. Dennis:          That's right, and that's why I'd suggest Homebuilders, which is very easy to lead, and I think most folks who are in this phase of life, the prime times of their lives, have the place – they've got a living room that's empty.  There's not any children running around, very few interruptions and, frankly, a lot of couples need to get away from their children for an evening occasionally and hear the biblical blueprints for building a marriage or a family. Bob:                Well, we've got the information, as you would imagine, about Homebuilders on our website at FamilyLife.com.  You can get more information about how easy it is to start one of these groups.  Get some other couples to join with you and experience the fun but also the purpose and the meaning that's wrapped up in being in a Homebuilders group.  Go to FamilyLife.com, or if you want to call 1-800-FLTODAY, someone on our team can give you more information about Homebuilders and how you can get involved in that growing movement of small groups all across the country.                         We also have Dr. Hendricks' message as part of a three-message series on either cassette or CD.  You can call 1-800-FLTODAY to request that series.  That's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.   Dennis:          Order two copies of this three-CD series – one for yourself and one for your parents – maybe three copies – one for your in-laws.  I just think there's a lot of sloppy thinking when it comes to retirement and what ought to be the prime time of our lives and, frankly, here is a man who is in his 80s – very vigorous, very alive in spite of battling cancer, who is showing us how to finish strong. Bob:                Well, again, go to our website at FamilyLife.com or call 1-800-FLTODAY for more information on the series of tapes or CDs from Dr. Howard Hendricks.  And then let me encourage you to also get a copy of John Piper's book, "Don't Waste Your Life."  A lot of people think that's a book for young people who are just starting out, and I remember Dr. Piper begins the book by talking about a retired couple that moved to Florida and collected seashells.  Do you remember that story? Dennis:          I do. Bob:                His whole premise is you can waste your life no matter what age you are, and you can also have a meaning and purpose for your life at any stage, at any age.  We have copies of that book in our FamilyLife Resource Center as well.                         Again, our website is FamilyLife.com.  If you want to call, the toll-free number is 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.                         Let me say a quick word of thanks to the many folks who have joined with us here at FamilyLife as Legacy Partners.  These are the folks who, on a monthly basis, help provide the financial support for our ministry.  You know, in December we had a lot of folks who wrote to us and who made year-end contributions, and we appreciate all of you who did that, but there's also that group who keeps in mind that we have bills come due in January, and these are the folks who, each month, send a donation of $25 or $30, $50, $100 a month to help support the ongoing ministry of FamilyLife Today. Dennis:          And I'd like to encourage you, if you've been ministered to by the ministry of FamilyLife, would you stand with Bob and me here on FamilyLife Today?  Our Legacy Partners are real difference-makers.  They keep us going. Bob:                You can find out more about becoming a Legacy Partner, again, on our website at FamilyLife.com or just give us a call at 1-800-FLTODAY and say, "Tell me more about this Legacy Partner thing," and someone on our team would be happy to help you understand how you can join the growing team of folks who help make FamilyLife Today possible.                         Well, tomorrow we're going to hear part two of Dr. Hendricks' message on retirement, and I hope you can tune in.  I hope you can call somebody who may be retired or retiring and invite them to tune in for part two of this message as well.                         I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  ________________________________________________________________ We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?         Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

A Biblical Look at Aging (Part 1) - Howard HendricksA Biblical Look at Aging (Part 2) - Howard HendricksFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. What is Retirement?Day 2 of 2 Guest:                            Dr. Howard Hendricks From the Series:         What is Retirement?________________________________________________________________ Bob:                Pastor Rick Warren has referred to life as a dress rehearsal for eternity.  Howard Hendricks says that's a perspective we need to maintain even in our retirement years. Howard:         C.S. Lewis said it – "Hope means a continual looking forward to the eternal world."  It does not mean that we are to leave the present world as it is.  If you read history, you will find that the Christians who did most for the present world were just those who thought most of the next world.  It is since Christians have largely ceased to think of the other world that they have become so ineffective in this world. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, January 19th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  There is still a lot of eternal work that needs to be done, even in the retirement years.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition.  I know there's still a few years before you and Barbara hit 65, but … Dennis:          Yes, I was thinking about you, too.  Are you and Mary Ann ready for retirement? Bob:                We're still – we're much younger than you. Dennis:          I was thinking, have you thought about early retirement? Bob:                Are you trying to suggest something?  Pick up your check on the way out the door? Dennis:          You know, there are some people who, if they heard that, and you know I'm kidding 100 percent, but if they heard those words, that would be chilling words – to hear your boss say, "Have you ever thought about early retirement?"  And the reason is, they don't know what they'd do, because they're not sure what they're about today.  And I think, as never before, we, as followers of Christ, need to be on a mission that transcends what we do at work. Bob:                That's right.  We're listening this week to a message from Dr. Howard Hendricks, who spoke to the couples who speak at the FamilyLife Weekend to Remember conferences.  We asked him to come in and help us think ahead to that time as we grow older when we'll face retirement, and we've got some young couples who speak at our conferences – couples in their late 20s and their 30s, but they were taking notes just like everyone else was taking notes, as Dr. Hendricks laid out a game plan for us to think ahead to that time when we may slow down a bit, because our body does slow down; when we may have less vocational work to do.  But it's not a time to just sit on the porch and rock.  It's a time to have a new focus and a new mission. Dennis:          It is, and this message is a part of a three-message series we're offering here on FamilyLife Today on the whole aspect of growing old and thinking through the aging process biblically, and I think there is a need for us to do that.                         Dr. Howard Hendricks was my professor at Dallas Theological Seminary where he's taught for over 52 years.  Now, think about that – he's had a job there for a long time.  He is still teaching there.  He and his wife Jeanne have four children.  I think they have eight grandchildren, and he is a great man and a great friend. Bob:                Well, let's listen together.  Here is part two of Dr. Hendricks' message on getting ready for retirement.   [audio clip] Howard:         I'd like to share with you five principles, but I want to underscore for you every one of them has a danger inherent in it.  Number one, retirement requires intensive prayer and planning and preparation.  It is hard to come up with the statistics, but if you talk to people who are specialists in the field of geriatrics, they will tell you this is virtually nonexistent, and I would say, "Well, maybe that's just true of the pagan community and culture."  I could only wish it were true.                           I spend all of my time in the Christian community, and I'm here to tell you the preparation is in the algebraic minus quantity.  There is a passage of Scripture that I hear, in my judgment, perverted.  It's found in the Book of James, chapter 4 – now, listen, you who say today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a time, a year, there, carry on business and make money.  Why, you don't even know what will happen tomorrow.  What is your life?  Here is the key – your life is a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.  You've got a little slice of life in which to make your impact for Christ, and often this is said to be a prohibition against planning – nothing further from the biblical truth.  Look at the last part – instead, here is your option, you ought to say if it is the Lord's will, you will live and do this or that.  As it is, you boast and brag and all such boasting is evil.  Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.  What an indictment.  Not of lack of planning but of planning with presumption that I'm going to do this or that in my retirement and that is guaranteed and no thought of the will of God.                         That's why I say you need to begin by discarding the secular concept of retirement that prevails in your culture, and you need to replace it with the understanding it's not what do I want for my retirement – what does the Lord of my life want for my retirement?  How does He want me to spend those bonus years, which are priceless?  And planning, I am discovering, is a form of spiritual discipline.  Most of us don't plan to fail, we fail to plan, and that's particularly true in the area of retirement.  What's the danger in this?  The danger is the danger of unrealistic expectations.  They're either false or they're shifting or they do not exist and, in any case, they are lethal.                           The second principle I would share with you is this – retirement is always, always built on your personal mission, your calling.  And that's why it's not more productive.  To be productive and rewarding, your retirement must be meaningful to you in your stage of life.  That's why you constantly need to ask the question I hope you have asked prior to this – why did God place me on the planet?  I told you I am a fulfilled human being because thank God for mentors who so built into my life that they helped me to determine early on what was my passion, what was my gift?  And if I do not teach, then I cease having any reason for existence.  And so people constantly ask me, "What are you going to do when you retire?"  I said, "You've got to be kidding.  I'm going to continue to do what I'm doing right now and have been for over 51 years at the seminary and prior to that in a pastorate, and that's building into the life of other people."  But what happens if I become incapacitated?  I can no longer travel, no longer move, no longer speak?  Then I will spend those remaining years praying for those like you that God has left on the planet to fulfill the mission He has given you. What's the danger in the second principle?  It's the danger of allowing your life to turn inward; to become self-absorbed and provincial, and I must tell you, nothing breaks my heart as much.  I said as I did not too long ago with a man who could not control his crying by telling me, "I wasted my life," when everybody in our community celebrates him as the ultimately successful.  Now he spends all of his time with his press clippings, all of his time looking at those awards that he received, but he has no external impact except that which is negative. Number three – retirement revolves around your self-identity and, remember, your self-identity is being continually formed through the whole of your life.  By the way, if you have not learned that you are not indispensable, retirement will teach you that as nothing else.  Like a businessman said to me recently – he said, "Hendricks, I woke up one day after the party, after the celebration, and in the first month I discovered no one ever called me.  I spent all of my time and my life on the phone giving counsel, recommending what others ought to do, and nobody" – and so I decided I'd go down to the office to see, and I said, "How's it going?"  "It is going fantastic.  It's never been this good."  And he said, "I climbed into my car, and I couldn't drive, because I couldn't see.  And suddenly it dawned on me, I'm not indispensable, I never have been." We need to learn to distinguish between our work and our worth.  What you are as a person is not to be equated with what you do.  My friend, you are not a human doing, you are a human being, and our worth ultimately as Christian is what we are in Christ.  The danger is that that image is distorted by other people, and so you depend on what you need, and that's strokes.  But if that's your only dependence, you're in trouble. The fourth one – retirement involves a definite process, and it can easily be summarized in three words – there is a losing, there is a leaving, and there is a letting go.  If you fail to do any of the three, you're in deep trouble.  See, loss is important to all of life.  A number of us were talking before, many of them my students here, and they said, "Prof, what have you lost?"  I said, "How many hours do you have?  Jeanne and I lost our oldest daughter.  You expect to bury your parents, you don't expect to bury your children.  Try that.  We lost my youngest son's wife from breast cancer after seven years of incredible agony, leaving three wonderful kids without a mom."  And in the process of discussion, I said, "You guys need to know I have not lost anything of my drive, of my passion, but I've lost some of my energy.  I no longer can do what I used to do.  Try adjusting to that."  And it's hard for some of you, because you're not there yet, though some of you are moving in that direction and are beginning to see there are losses to life, and your task is to leave them, to let them go.  Otherwise, you cling tenaciously to them, and that's what eats your lunch in retirement.  That's why older people spend so much time in nostalgia.  It's not simply a desire to return to the past, it's a failure to face the future.  The danger in retirement is inertia.  It's passivity.  It's people who just sit, and if they think at all, all they can think of is their past. Number five – retirement demands an eternal perspective.  It was my little brother at Wheaton, Jim Elliott, who used to say it so often when we would meet – "Howie, we must give what we cannot keep in order to gain what we cannot lose."  So as a Christian you are forced to give up in order to gain what I believe may be the most significant years of your life from God's perspective.  But the ultimate question in an eternal perspective is what is the center of your life around which everything else is organized?  Is it a terminating core or is it a non-terminating core?  Whenever you build your life around a terminating core, whether it's your home or your car or your money or even your family, then you are going to sustain the most severe losses, and it will never fulfill you.  That's why the only adequate candidate, in my judgment, is Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever.  This is why I believe hope is unique to Christianity.   C.S. Lewis said it – "Hope means a continual looking forward to the eternal world."  It does not mean that we are to leave the present world as it is.  If you read history, you will find that the Christians who did most for the present world were just those who thought most of the next world.  It is since Christians have largely ceased to think of the other world that they have become so ineffective in this one.  Aim at heaven, and you will get earth thrown in – aim at earth, and you will get neither.   When I was a kid, I cannot tell you how many times I heard the statement from pastors and Bible teachers and friends, and that is, "You spend so much time thinking about the next world, that you are no good in this one."  Do you know what we need to do?  We need to reverse that.  We spend so much time in this world, and perhaps this is why we are no more effective in terms of the next one.  What's the danger?  The danger is forgetting where your home is.   Malcolm Muggeridge, in his penetrating way, said "The only ultimate disaster that can befall us as Christians is to feel ourselves to be at home here on earth.  As long as we are aliens, we cannot forget our true homeland." [end audio clip] Bob:                That's Dr. Howard Hendricks, and I remember as he was presenting this material, sitting there thinking of that song, "This world is not my home, I'm just a-passing through."  Do you remember that one?  That's the reality.  We've got to keep our eyes focused on where we're headed, and we've got to do all we can in this life to get ourselves and everyone else we know ready for the next one. Dennis:          Yes, and his last point – retirement demands an eternal perspective.  It is all about investing in people.  It's about seeing God use us to change people's lives, and that's why, as we talk about retirement, what ought to be the prime time of our lives, I'm challenging on an increasing basis, in fact, I'm getting on my soapbox, Bob, and I'm challenging folks who are moving into these years of their lives – become a Homebuilder.  Lead a small-group Bible study with a group of married couples, a group of parents, maybe parents of young children or parents of teenagers, maybe the military family.  You know, this is a critical time for our military.  The family has been impacted there.  We have a Homebuilder Bible study that was written just for the military family. Bob:                We've got one for blended families, too.  We've got a whole series for parents and 10 different titles for married couples.  So we've tried to provide an easy-to-use tool.  Now we just need folks who will pick up the tool and go to work. Dennis:          Right.  I personally believe this Bible study is the most effective small-group Bible study for the family that's ever been produced, and you need to know when you support us financially, you make it possible for us to produce these Bible studies and get them translated and published in other languages.  And I want you, as a listener, to know that Homebuilders has now been translated into 200 different languages and dialects around the world.  We have no idea how many millions of copies have been produced and are now in use in other countries.  This is a phenomenal outreach, but it's a very important outreach here in America, and I think anyone who is approaching the retirement years ought to think about leading a Homebuilders' group. Bob:                That's right. We appreciate those of you who do support us and help make this outreach possible, and those of you who would like to become Homebuilders leaders, go to our website at FamilyLife.com.  There's more information available there, or give us a call at 1-800-FLTODAY.  Someone on our team can let you know how easy it is to start a Homebuilders group.  Again, our website is FamilyLife.com or the number 1-800-FLTODAY.  That's also how you would get hold of the message you've heard today from Dr. Howard Hendricks.  It's part of a three-CD or three-cassette series on the subject of aging, and you can contact us for more information on how you can have his messages sent to you. Dennis:          Like I mentioned earlier, Bob, get three copies – one for yourself, one for your parents, and one for your in-laws.  I think we need to be seeding the marketplace – those who are in their retirement years with good, solid, biblical teaching about what it means to age and grow old with a mission. Bob:                Well, again, you can find information online at FamilyLife.com or give us a call at 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.                         Well, tomorrow we're going to introduce you to some college students who, back when they were in high school, decided to get together and make a movie – I mean a real movie – and we'll meet the woman who directed the effort and helped them make their dream possible.  We'll hear about the movie, "Holly's Story," tomorrow, and I hope you can be with us for that.                         I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  ________________________________________________________________ We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?         Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Wisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 1) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 2) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 3) - John WoodenFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Growing Up With WoodenDay 1 of 3 Guest:                    John Wooden From the series:   True Success:  A Personal Visit with John Wooden  Bob:                It was the 1920s in rural Indiana.  The Depression had not yet rocked America.  John Wooden was a young boy growing up on a farm, a high school student who loved basketball but who was about to meet the real love of his life. John:              I noticed this one little gal, and I didn't know, but she had noticed me, too, but I didn't know that.  Somehow, on the first day of classes my freshman year, we happened to be in the same class, and I knew right then, and we knew we were going to be married by the time I got out of high school, and August 8th it would have been 70 years since last August 8th, we would have been married. Bob:                Today you'll hear the first part of a conversation with a man who grew up to be one of the greatest coaches of all time as we talk about his faith, his family, and basketball.  Stay tuned as we talk with Coach John Wooden on FamilyLife Today.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition.  I can't help but smile as I listen to that excerpt from our interview with Coach John Wooden.  Of course, a lot of people are smiling right about now because this is the time of the year when March madness really takes over.  There is a lot of basketball ahead for us. Dennis:          Semis are this weekend, Final Four on Monday. Bob:                It's got to bring back lots of memories for you from your college days, doesn't it? Dennis:          Well, high school.  You know, going back to high school, Bob, those were my glory days.  My college days, I had several splinters. Bob:                Sitting on the bench, huh? Dennis:          I got the 15th uniform out of 15 in college.  I learned what it was like to be a substitute. Bob:                But your team almost went to the Final Four, didn't it? Dennis:          Well, not THE Final Four.  We almost went to the Junior College National Championships in Kansas, and I'm trying to remember where in Kansas. Bob:                But that's like the Final Four for Junior Colleges, right? Dennis:          Oh, yeah, absolutely.  In fact, I started that game – the last game of my college career, I started. Bob:                You poured in what – 15, 20 points? Dennis:          Now, wait a second – hold it, just one second, because they put me on an All American.  This is a true story.  The coach had watched me.  It was the only game I started in my college career, but my coach was so impressed with me never quitting and just staying out there and being tenacious – he started me.  And he put me on the quickest guy I've ever played against. Bob:                Man-to-man defense. Dennis:          Man-to-man defense, and did you know, when I left the game in the first half – I played about six or seven minutes – I had scored more points … Bob:                … than the All American, and the reason was this:  He was so fast and I was so slow, he would fake three or four times, and by the time I had taken his first fake, I was back to where he was really going.  And so I would post up underneath the bucket, and the guy didn't like to play defense, and I'd post up on him and score.  And so when I left the game, I had actually scored more points than him. Bob:                Now, some of our listeners are wondering what are you talking about Dennis' glory days of basketball on FamilyLife Today? Dennis:          Because we really don't have anything else to talk about.  No, that's not true.  We have a guest today – well, Bob, a dream of mine, and I sent you a note one day.  I said, "Bob, you know, one of the people I would really like in all the world to interview for FamilyLife Today and for our listeners and give them a glimpse of what a great human being he is, what many have described as the greatest coach of any sport of all time – Coach John Wooden."  Now, there are a number of our listeners who have no idea who John Wooden is, but a ton do.  Bob:                Coach Wooden coached the UCLA Bruins back in the '60s and the '70s. Dennis:          Well, actually, he started coaching in 1948.  That's what most people don't realize is.  He didn't build that national championship dominant team in the '60s and '70s.  He built it in obscurity beginning in 1948 throughout all the '50s and early '60s before he won his first national championship in 1964. Bob:                And after he won his first one, then he won his second and his third and his fourth and his fifth and his sixth.  Over a 12-year period he won 10 national championships. Dennis:          That's right, including winning 88 games in a row before they were knocked off at the Houston Astrodome, and I remember watching this game as a young man, where Lew Alcindor was playing against Elvin Hayes, and Houston beat them 71-69, and the Astrodome had, like, 49,000 people in it.  It was nationally televised.  It was an event, and there are few coaches that could claim the accomplishments that – in any sport – what he has accomplished.  But in basketball, he is the ultimate. Bob:                Well, we're going to hear a little bit about that game and about a lot of other games as we talk with Coach Wooden over the next few days.  A while back, you and I sat down with him in a studio in Los Angeles and just had a great opportunity to find out about the man who grew up to be "The Coach."  Here is part 1 of our conversation with Coach John Wooden: Dennis:          Tell us about life in the Wooden household when you were growing up as a young lad. John:              We had a small farm, and I learned a lot, I think, of things that helped me later on.  You had to work hard.  Dad felt there was time for play but always after the chores and the studies were done.  Dad would read to us every night from the Scriptures and poetry, and I think that created a love of poetry, which I've always had, liked to dabble in it a little bit.  My dad was a wonderful person.  I never heard him speak an ill word of anybody; never blamed anybody for anything; I never heard him use a word of profanity.  I think that his reading to us of a night later caused all four sons to get through college, though he had no financial means to help and there were no athletic scholarships.  All four sons graduated from college and all majored or minored in English, and all got advanced degrees, and I think Dad had a lot to do with that. Dennis:          Your dad had, as you've already mentioned, a profound impact on your life.  In fact, I was so looking forward to this interview with you, because I've quoted you about something that you said you carried around in your pocket.  Or – it, first of all, was carried around in your father's pocket, is that right?  And then you started carrying it around – it was your dad's creed – and then a poem by a pastor by the name of Henry Van Dyke. John:              My father gave to me, when I graduated from high school – excuse me – from grade school, from the eighth grade, he gave me a $2 bill – one of those large $2 bills and said, "Son, as long as you keep this you'll never be broke."  Then he also gave me a card, and on one side was the verse by Reverend Van Dyke that said, "Four things a man must learn to do if he would make his life more true; to think without confusion clearly; to love his fellow man sincerely; to act from honest motives purely; to trust in God and heaven securely." And on the other side was a seven-point creed, and the seven-point creed insisted, first of all, I think it was, "Be true to yourself," and I think we know if we're true to ourselves, we'll be true to others; and the second was "Help others."  There is no greater joy than a person can have than do something for someone else, especially when you do it with no thought of something in return. Another one was "Make friendship a fine art."  Work at it, don't take it for granted, work at making friends and making friendships flourish.  And then was one, I think, stood out to me a great deal was, "Make me today your masterpiece," and I tried to teach from that, as time went by, to my players and my English students, to just try and do the best you can each day.  Just make each day a masterpiece.  It's the only thing over which you have control.  You have no control over yesterday.  That will never change.  The only way you can affect tomorrow is today.  And then another one was to "Drink deeply from good books, especially the Bible;" and then was "Build a shelter against a rainy day," and he wasn't thinking about a physical shelter, he was thinking about a more lasting shelter.  When I think about that, I often think of when Socrates was unjustly imprisoned and was facing imminent death and the jailers who were mean people, they couldn't understand his serenity, and they said, "Why aren't you preparing for death?"  And his statement was, "I've been preparing for death all my life by the life I've led," and when I think of building a shelter against a rainy day, I think that's what Dad had in mind. Then the last was – the seventh was "Give thanks for your blessings and pray for guidance every day," and I've carried that with me in one form or another since those days, yes. Bob:                Those core convictions are so bedrock with you, that's a part of how your mom and dad raised you.  I think some people – we hear those things in the 21st century and some people go, "That sounds kind of old-fashioned, kind of corny," but that's so ingrained into who you are and who you've been, and you would say that's been a part of what has made you successful as a coach, right? John:              Well, I would hope so, but I know, too, if someone said, "I'm not what I ought to be and not what I want to be and not what I'm going to be, but I think those things have made me better than I would have been. Dennis:          Your dad read the Bible every day. John:              Yes, he did. Dennis:          How did you see him live out his faith in Christ every day, as a father?  What are the most indelible memories that you have, as a boy, watching your dad?  Because, undoubtedly, for him to have the influence he had on you as a man, his character has to resonate even today in your life. John:              Perhaps I wasn't realizing it at the time, but as I look back on my dad and the fact that he never spoke an ill word of anyone and just was a good person.  You don't realize it so much of the time, and many of the things – one of the things he said was never try to be better than someone else.  You have no control over that, and if you get too involved and engrossed and concerned – maybe these weren't his exact words, but things over which you have no control will adversely affect the things over which you have control.                         Now, years later, I remember that.  So somewhere in the hidden recesses of the mind, they stuck there, but it was things like that.  Mr. Lincoln said there is nothing stronger than gentleness, and my father was gentle man – working with animals and things.  I remember reading to us nights over the Scriptures, and I can still close my eyes and hear him reading "Hiawatha."  I can still hear "By the shores of Gitchigoomie, by the Shining Big Sea Water, Stood the wigwam of Nokomis," and so on, and things of that sort. Bob:                You didn't have any TV, any radio, so in the evening reading was the primary form of entertainment, wasn't it? John:              You're correct – by a coal oil lamp or candles. Bob:                Was your dad – as you think back on his life, you've talked about this tender side of him, and yet he was still whipping you when you did the wrong thing.  Was he a strict disciplinarian? John:              Well, I would say yes but not in a physical point of way.  I know – oh, I didn't want to get an unkind word from my dad, you know, a strong word.  I don't know, you just hated to hurt him in any way.  You just had that feeling about him. Dennis:          As you followed your dad, you undoubtedly watched how he'd love your mother.  Tell us about what you observed there and his commitment to her, as a woman and to his wife, over their years together. John:              Well, I think Dad's first concern was always for Mother.  He was looking out for her the best he could in every way but in a gentle way, in a gentle way.  I can picture them together – not at all the romantic way that you might think, but there was just something between them that was very, very special.  I don't know how to describe it. Dennis:          You said of yourself in your book, "They Call Me Coach," that as you moved into your high school years, you were shy, you were reserved, especially with the opposite sex. John:              Yes, I suppose, not being exposed much – no sisters – and I'm on the farm, and I suppose that's the reason, I don't know, but I was a little shy. Bob:                But here you were, this star basketball player on the high school team.  I mean, the girls, the cheerleaders, had to notice Johnny Wooden, didn't they?  Did they call you Johnny back then or was it John? John:              They called me lots of things. (laughter)                          You'd be surprised, the more they think it was John Bob. Bob:                John Bob. Dennis:          John Bob. John:              And Nellie and I had been married for many years when her sister came out here to California one time, and she said, "Don't you think you and John have been married long enough that you should quit calling him John Bob?" Bob:                But didn't the girls start to notice you as you were draining those jump shots on the basketball teams? Dennis:          Yeah, he kind of skirted your answer there.  I was watching him about that. John:              Well, I'll tell you, my freshman year, I was still living on the farm.  We didn't lose the farm until after my freshman year, and then we commuted from this little town of Center, and we lived about a half a mile out of that to Martinsville, and I noticed this one little gal, and I didn't know that she had noticed me, too, but I didn't know that, and that summer she brought the brother of her closest friend, who became very dear to me, to drive up.  Her brother had a car, and they drove up, and I was working in the field plowing corn with a team, and they parked in the road and motioned for me to come over, and I wouldn't go over.  I just kept on. Bob:                Why wouldn't you go over?  Here's this cute girl on the side of the road … Dennis:          … and you even liked her, too. John:              Oh, yeah, but I was dirty and somehow on the first day of classes, we happened to be in the same class.  She said, "Why didn't you come over to see us?"  I said, "Well, I was dirty and perspiring, and you would have just made fun of me."  And Nellie said – I can still see her, she said, "I would never make fun of you," and I knew right then … Dennis:          … there was a spark in her eyes. John:              And this is the only girl I ever really went with. Bob:                So by your junior year in high school, did you think, "This is the girl I'll marry?" John:              I did. Bob:                And you all started going together? John:              We did. Bob:                So you waited to marry until you got to college? John:              Yes, until I graduated.  I was glad to be married and graduated and got my first job, yes. Bob:                Coach, that's a long courtship – from your junior year in high school until you've graduated from college and got your first job.  That must have been hard. Dennis:          But, Bob, the rest of the story is, if Nellie hadn't put her foot down … Bob:                … he might still be dragging it on today? Dennis:          Well, there is the rest of the story here, because he really had promised her that he was going to marry her upon graduation, but then the war came along. John:              Yes.  Well, I had an appointment to West Point, and she said it would be six more years, and "I'm not going to wait.  I'm going to a convent."  So I didn't go to West Point. Bob:                She said she wouldn't wait on you? John:              That's right. Dennis:          And so what did you do? John:              Well, I finished at Purdue.  Dennis:          So you were married then? John:              We were married on August 8th.  It would have been 70 years just last August 8th that we would have been married.  We were married on August 8, 1932. Dennis:          You were, in those days, All American three years in a row, you were named the College Player of the Year your senior year, and as I was doing this research, I was thinking – I was talking to Bob.  I said, "I don't remember Coach Wooden being that tall, to be College Player of the Year.  He must have been 6'3" or 6'4".  On the sidelines you looked a little small around those big guys at UCLA.  But you were only 5'10" in those days. John:              But, you know, the teams weren't as big then, either, as they are now, too.  Our center at Purdue, Stretch Murphy, was 6'8", and he was a giant.  I only had the pleasure of playing with him one year.  I had the displeasure of playing against him one year when I was a sophomore in high school for the Indiana State Championship, he was the center on the opposing team, and he was good. Bob:                Did you just have what it takes as an athlete?  Were you just a naturally gifted – something about the way God made you that you turned out to be a good basketball player?  Or did you work really hard to be a good ball player? John:              Well, I hope I did the latter, but He provided the former.  I had natural quickness, and I couldn't do much about my height, but I could do something about my condition, and I always wanted to be in the best possible condition and hoped that would be better than others, hoped others wouldn't work as hard at it as I did do that, and I think I carried that throughout, and I think that helped.  And I think it probably come from my earlier grade school days on the farm of working hard, and I like to feel that no one is going to be in better condition, then I have no control over it.  I should have control over myself. Bob:                Well, we've been listening to a conversation with Coach John Wooden – actually, part 1 of a conversation that we're going to hear the remainder of over the next couple of days. Dennis:          What a sweet time, huh? Bob:                It was a great time. Dennis:          Bob, you and I just had a great time.  I'd look over at you occasionally, and you'd be sitting there grinning, and I'd be grinning, and the reason is, is when we interviewed Coach, he was 91 years old.  He's now at his 92nd birthday, and I'm told that he knows where 180 of his players are – his past players.  He's kept in touch with them.  I heard about a coach the other day whose players never go back to visit him – none of them.  It's common knowledge that his players don't want to have anything to do with him, and I think about Coach Wooden and the wisdom that he passed on, and it reminds me, really, of Proverbs, chapter 4, where a father is imploring and exhorting a son to "Listen, my son, and acquire wisdom."   And I'll tell you, just hanging with the Coach for the interview we did over an hour and a half, we're not going to be able to air all of it here on the broadcast over the next couple of days, but just hanging with him, you thought, "What would it have been like to have played for a coach like that?"  And then it hit me, you know, that's what our children need to be expressing about us as parents.  You know, we learned, we sat under the greatest mom, the greatest dad, the greatest coach, the greatest teacher the world has ever known.  Yeah, they're going to be biased, but the idea is that we, as parents, we're impacting the next generation just like Coach Wooden did. Bob:                That's right.  You mentioned the entire interview going more than an hour and a half long.  We've actually taken the complete interview and put it on two CDs, and I got some early copies of these CDs, and I'll tell you what I found – you can pass these out to lots of folks.  You can pass them out to the high school coach at the high school where your kids go. Dennis:          Oh, let me tell you something, I've been doing this, and I've had friends doing this – any coach of any sport – Laura's volleyball coach – I gave her a copy of this, and she grabbed hold of it like it was gold, and the reason is it is gold.  Bob:                It's thoughts on life from a great coach but it's also thoughts on faith and character and what really matters.  You can use this as a way to begin a dialog and to open doors evangelistically with fans of the game, with coaches, with players, with friends.  We have the two-CD set that features the entire – I think it's about an hour-and-45-minute-long conversation with Coach John Wooden.                          It's available in our FamilyLife Resource Center.  You can call 1-800-FLTODAY to request as many copies as you want. Dennis:          It even looks like a basketball on one side and a net on the other. Bob:                1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.  You can also order online at FamilyLife.com.  Ask for the two-CD set of our conversation with Coach John Wooden when you contact us, and there's a second resource we want to mention to you as well – Coach Wooden has put together a course that is designed to teach his principles of success in business, in athletics, in school.  We have a videocassette where Coach lays out the Pyramid of Success that he put together, and we have the Pyramid on our website at FamilyLife.com, but we also have it on a mousepad that you can have by your computer just to review the character qualities that go into success in any endeavor.  Along with the video and the mousepad, we've got a wallet card. Dennis:          Not just any wallet card. Bob:                No, it's a laminated … Dennis:          … a laminated … Bob:                … that's right, and it has some of the Coach's philosophy on it – never lie, never cheat, never steal, don't whine, don't complain, don't make excuses – pretty simple stuff but profound nonetheless.                           Ask for these resources when you call 1-800-FLTODAY.  Again, it's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY or go online at FamilyLife.com, and you can see some of the resources there, and you can order online as well.  Again, our website is FamilyLife.com.                          When you do get in touch with us, someone is likely to ask if you'd like to help with a donation to FamilyLife Today, and we hope when they ask, if you are able, you'll say yes and be able to add a donation to the work of this ministry.  We're a nonprofit organization, and we depend on those contributions to keep doing what we're doing.  So if you can't help with a donation, you can donate online at FamilyLife.com.  You can call 1-800-FLTODAY or you can write a check and mail it to us at FamilyLife Today, Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  The zip code is 72221.  Once again, it's FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas, and our zip code is 72221.                          Well, tomorrow we're going to find out how the UCLA dynasty almost never happened and how it might have been the Minnesota dynasty if it hadn't been for a snowstorm. Dennis:          Yeah, this is a great story about lost opportunity. Bob:                We'll hear that tomorrow as we continue our conversation with Coach John Wooden.  I hope you can be with us for that.                           I want to thank our engineer today, Robbie Neal [sp], and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.    We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights 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Wisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 1) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 2) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 3) - John WoodenFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Coaching PressureDay 2 of 3 Guest:                    John Wooden From the series:   True Success:  A Personal Visit with John Wooden  Bob:                A basketball tournament is a test.  It's a test of a team's skill and a coach's savvy.  But long before the players ever show up on the court, it can be a test of an individual's character as well.  At least it was for Coach John Wooden in 1948. John:              I had one black player on my team, and they wouldn't let them play in the tournament, and I wouldn't go without him, because he was a part of the team, and finally they reluctantly said that he could come, but he couldn't stay in the hotel where the teams were staying.  He could have his meals there, providing we would take them in a private room.  So I refused the invitation and wouldn't go. Bob:                John Wooden, who would go on to be come one of the greatest coaches in basketball history, but he was a coach who was known as much for his character as for his basketball prowess.  Stay with us for a conversation with the Coach, John Wooden on FamilyLife Today.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Thursday edition.  You know, this would make one of those great trivia questions that pop up on those sports talk shows from time to time – who was the Indiana Rubber Man? Dennis:          Mm-hm. Bob:                Now, you know and I know, because we had a chance to talk to the Indiana Rubber Man, but I wonder how many of our listeners know that a man who is considered today to have perhaps been the greatest coach of all time in any sport, Coach John Wooden of the UCLA Bruins, was once one of the great players in basketball – both in college basketball and then in semi-pro basketball. Dennis:          That's right.  He is one of two that are in the Basketball Hall of Fame, both as a player and a coach.  The other is Lenny Wilkinson, I believe, and, of course, we talked yesterday about Coach Wooden and a little trip Bob and I made out to Southern California to interview him.  He slipped into the studio with Bob and me, and you need to hang with us today and tomorrow, because at the end of tomorrow's broadcast, I'm going to tell you a cute story about Coach Wooden autographing a book for me.                           Because I did play ball, as Bob mentioned yesterday, in college.  My average was just about the same as Coach Wooden's, in fact – no, it really wasn't. Bob:                A little less than average is what's your average. Dennis:          Yeah, I was less than average, no doubt about it, but he was an All American, as you said, Bob, but he was more than that.  He was a man of, I believe, a simple faith in Jesus Christ and in God and who lived out his commitments to his players, to his family, and to his wife, Nellie, and you're going to hear some touching moments about how this man fulfilled his marriage covenant with his wife. Bob:                Coach Wooden has been known throughout the years as a man of great integrity, great character, and a great molder of men, and if you ask him what he did, he says, "I was just a teacher.  I've taught boys how to play basketball." Dennis:          Yeah, in fact, he almost went into teaching, which is interesting. Bob:                We'll hear about that today.  This is taken from a conversation – an extended conversation – that we had with Coach John Wooden not long ago.  Here is Dennis with Coach Wooden. Dennis:          A story that you tell that I want you to share with our listeners came at the conclusion of your first year at Indiana State University, where you won the conference title, and you received an invitation to play in the NAIA Tournament, but you turned them down.  Why? John:              We had a pretty good year, the first year, and the NAIA Tournaments played in Kansas City – 32 teams then – and I had one black player on my team, and they wouldn't let them play in the tournament.  So even though this was – of the 12 men on the team, he played the least of all, he didn't get to play very much, and I wouldn't go without him, because he was a part of the team.  So I refused the invitation and wouldn't go.                         Now, the next year I had everybody back on this team, exactly the same team, no one came in and beat anybody else out, and so the next year we had a good year, and were invited again, and I refused again, and finally they reluctantly said that he could come, but he couldn't stay in the hotel where the teams were staying.  He'd have to stay someplace else.  He could have his meals there, providing we would take them in a private room.  I said no, I wouldn't do that, but I was persuaded by the NCAA and his parents that we should go; it might help.  So we went, and he stayed with a minister and his wife and came into the hotel from the game.  He didn't get to play very much at all, but that was the first black player that had ever played in that tournament, and I think a few years later an all-black team won.  So we sort of opened the door a little bit. Bob:                You undoubtedly had some players – when you came back and told the team we've been invited to the tournament but we're not going to go because they won't accept this one player – there had to be some guys going, "Coach, I want to go to Kansas City, I want to play on the team.  Let's just go along with their rules."  Didn't anybody raise their hand in protest? John:              I don't think anyone protested.  Some would have liked to have gone, yes, but they didn't.  I knew these men, and most of them I'd had in high school before, and they knew how I felt about things, and there was no problem.  They caused me no problem there. Dennis:          As your career was taking off, you were also in the process of beginning your family.  You had a daughter and a son, and what I wonder is, I wonder how did you juggle the tension of your marriage, your family, your faith, and a demanding profession?  What value in your core, as a man, was your measurement?  How did you juggle it all? John:              I wish Nellie were here to answer that question for you.  Well, Nan, of course, was born in Dayton, Kentucky, when I was down there, and then Jim was born in South Bend two years later, but I tried, definitely tried – Nellie always went to games with me, and I wouldn't leave her to go scout or anything of that sort, unless she couldn't go, not bring basketball home.  I tried not to do that.  Now, can you do that 100 percent – probably not.  But I tried not, and Nellie, when she was interviewed at times, I'd heard her say that, "John never brought the games home.  I could never tell after a practice" – she was practically at all the games – "but never after a practice, I could not tell by his demeanor whether he had a good practice or a bad practice or had problems at all."  And maybe she stretched the truth a little bit there, but I certainly tried not to.  I wanted – next to faith – I wanted family first. Bob:                We had the opportunity once to interview Coach McCartney from Colorado – a football coach who started Promise Keepers, and his wife told us that at the beginning of the football season all of the coaches and their wives would get together for a party that they said was the "Football's Here, Goodbye, Dear," party.  Because they said that from the middle of the summer until the end of whatever ball game you were going to, you rarely saw your husband.  Is the demand of coaching higher today than it was when you were coaching or did you just order your world differently than other coaches did? John:              I don't think demand is any higher, it's just what you make out of it.  You have to be disciplined on what you're doing.  You have to establish your own priorities and then stick to them.  I don't think it's any different, and as far as pressure being on you, the only pressure that amounts to a hill of beans is the pressure you put on yourself.  If you permit outside pressure, alumni pressure, or parental pressure from the outside, if you permit those to influence you, then you're weak.  You better get on with something else, but you'd probably find the same thing someplace else, too. It's like my players – when I'd recruit the player, I'd say, "Now, if you come here, you're going to be unhappy for a while.  You're going to be unhappy.  You're going to be away from home for the first time, you're not going to be the big shot that you were in high school, but you're not going to like it here for a while.  But if you go someplace, it would be the same thing.  You wouldn't like it there, so it might as well be here."  I sort of felt that way about it, and I think that pressure is – when the coaches talk to me about pressures, I say, "Get out, get out, get out."  The pressure amounts to a hill of beans of what you put on yourself.  You've got to put pressure on yourself, do a good job, do the best you can, study, work as you can, but don't let that be all-encompassing.  There are other things more important. Dennis:          How did Nellie keep your family on the track and help John Wooden as a man keep his priorities?  I mean, you undoubtedly had your moments when you would work too hard, too long, and be a little too consumed with it all.  How did she come alongside you – how was she a good helpmate and counterpart to the Coach? John:              Well, she was just a good mother and a good wife, and we had a little disagreement, I remember, one time many, many, many, many years ago, many years before I lost her, we had a little disagreement, and I left the house to go to work without [inaudible], and I should have but when I went to bed that night there was a little note on my pillow with a card, it's still there, it says, "Don't try to understand me, just love me."  And that's it.  I think we had a great relationship more than anything else, and I've said that when we – we talked about this, and, gracious, we're going to disagree on a lot of things, but let's try not to be disagreeable. Dennis:          You had a little tradition that you and Nellie enjoyed right before the game started.  Now, Bob, I remember watching Coach Wooden on TV when college basketball games started being televised, but there was something I missed as an observer, a little tradition that he had with Nellie before the game started. John:              Back when I was playing in high school, she played in the band, and I'd try to position myself where I could look up and see her in the band, and she's always give me a – and I'd give her a wink or a nod, and that continued, you know, in my teaching days.  Before every game, I'd find her and I'd give her a wink or a nod, and so that's probably what you're thinking of.  Superstition?  No, it wasn't superstition, it just made me feel good. Dennis:          Just a little wink. John:              That's right, that's right. Bob:                You wound up as the coach of UCLA because of a snowstorm. John:              Correct. Bob:                Tell us how you got that job. John:              I was considering both UCLA and the University of Minnesota.  That had both offered me the jobs, and I wanted to stay in the Midwest in the Big 10.  UCLA was going to call an hour after Minnesota was going to call.  Minnesota didn't call, and UCLA called, and I accepted.  About an hour later I got a call from Minnesota saying everything was all worked out, and I said, "I'm sorry, I've committed myself.  I can't back out now."  And there was what they called an "unseasonable" snowstorm that had the lines down, and they couldn't get to a phone to call me at the time, they said.  So that's how close it came. Bob:                Why didn't you just hang on until they got on – why did you take the job at UCLA if you wanted to be in Minnesota?  Did you think they were going to not call?  They'd decided to go with somebody else? John:              I suppose I thought that.  I don't remember exactly now.  All I know is they didn't call in time, and I'm a stickler for time.  My players will tell you one of the rules that I had throughout is be on time to your classes, to practice, to the bus – be on time – and if you're not, some action will be taken.  As the years went by, I learned not to tell them what the action would be. Bob:                It didn't matter whether there was a snowstorm or not, they needed to be on time. Dennis:          I want to know, Coach, why you chose coaching.  I mean, you said you loved to teach English, you were a teacher at heart, you could have done a lot of things.  Why did you do it? John:              I went to Purdue to become a civil engineer – that's what I wanted to do, but I didn't know – high school counseling, obviously, wasn't as good in those days, and I didn't know that to get your degree in civil engineering you had to go to civil camp every summer.  Well, I knew I couldn't go to civil camp every summer.  I had to work in the summers, so I couldn't do that.  So I changed to a Liberal Arts course and majored in English, and I knew, from that time on, I'm going to teach.  I enjoyed teaching, as time went by.  I enjoyed it.  I taught English in high school, and I wanted to be a good English teacher, and I enjoyed it, and once I got into it, I had opportunities to get out in other areas where, financially, it would have been better, but I enjoyed teaching.  Who was it said that you find a job that you enjoy, you'll never work a day in your life. Dennis:          And you view coaching as teaching? John:              Of course, it is.  That's all it is.  You're teaching sports.  You've heard some of my players, particularly some of the talkative ones like Bill Walton, will often say in his interviews that coach was teacher. Dennis:          Coach, as you taught, you believed in teaching about the fundamentals. John:              Oh, absolutely. Dennis:          In fact, in coming into this studio, the one thing I regret that I didn't bring in here – I brought you a banana, because I know you like a banana, but I should have brought a pair of socks – athletic socks – into the studio, because you took high school stars – you began with a very simple point of instruction. John:              That's correct.  I taught them how to put on their socks and their shoes.  I wanted no wrinkles in the socks, and I'd show them how to put it on and smooth around the little toe.  Your blisters usually come from around the little toe or the heel area, and I wanted to show them how to do that, because I know if you don't, they just pull them up.  To me, I think, it was just as important thing – a little detail, but little details is what make big things happen. Bob:                You had some players who obviously became players of note not only in college but on into the NBA.  Some of them seem to be outside of the Wooden paradigm, if I can call it that.  You know, Bill Walton does not strike me as the prototypical John Wooden basketball player.  It almost seems like here's a guy who can play the game, but here is a disciplined coach and a player who – well – discipline was not high on his list of virtues, was it? John:              In certain areas, you might say that, but Bill is very dear to me.  For many, many years he calls me three or four times a week from all over, but at the time he played for me, it was a time of the anti-establishment, and he was anti-establishment very much at that particular time.  I was concerned about money and things, but I have no right to determine the politics of my players.  Now, actually, the religion – that's them.  But he's a good student, he's an honor student, he's in the academic hall of fame.  When he came on the basketball floor, you couldn't ask – no one could ask – for a player to be more cooperative, set a great example.  No one worked harder – never a problem in any way.  But he had his little quirks, as we all have, and … Bob:                … what about his facial hair, though?  He did show up one time … John:              … well, he decided I didn't have the right to tell him how to wear his hair, and I said, "You're absolutely right, Bill, I don't have.  All I have the right is to determine who plays, and we're going to miss you." Bob:                You said, "If you want to keep the beard, you're off the team?" John:              That's right. Dennis:          This is an All American you're talking to. John:              That's right. Dennis:          But you drew a line in the sand over the facial hair. John:              I did, I did. Dennis:          And what did Bill do? John:              Then he hurried and got fixed up then. Bob:                He shaved his beard off, didn't he? John:              And he's been asked, "Do you think Coach would have gone through with it?"  And he said, "Well, you know what I did."  If I have a rule, I'm going to stand by it.  But always remember there can be a gray area at times.  There was a time in my teaching that I had no gray area – it was either black or white with me.  But there can be a gray area, and I made two mistakes – I made many, but I know two that I recall that I regret very much because I didn't see the gray area. Bob:                What are those two? John:              Well, I had a rule in high school that smoking was automatic dismissal from the squad for the year, and my finest player, my only center I'd had, I caught him smoking, and I dismissed him.  I had the rule, and I … Dennis:          … and you think it's a mistake now, looking back? John:              Well, he quit school, he never finished school.  He would have gone on to college.  I think I was wrong.  I should have handled it in a different way. Bob:                What was the second thing, you said, that you regretted? John:              I had a player that didn't qualify for his letter.  This was in high school, but he was a fine person that worked very, very hard, and – but, anyway, his dad came in one day and called me and wondered if I'd come out and talk to him.  I did, and he said, "Is Joe going to get a letter?"  I said – no tact ­– I said, "Well, I haven't really decided yet."  And he said, "I'll tell you this" – remember, I'm just a young man – and he said, "I'll tell you, if he doesn't, I'm going to have your job." Dennis:          He threatened you. John:              Yes, he did, and I didn't like that, and I ended up by not giving the boy his letter, and I feel, down deep in my heart, that I would have given him the letter if the dad – for the youngster because of the dad, and that's wrong. Bob:                That's Coach John Wooden from the UCLA Bruins, although, at the time he made that decision that he regretted, he wasn't coaching on a national platform, he was just coaching high school boys back in Indiana.  It's interesting just to listen back to that story and hear it resonate with a coach who cared more about doing the right thing than almost anything else. Dennis:          And, you know, Bob, he was reliving that story before us, and he's 91 years old.  That story occurred 60 years ago, but he really had a deep, profound regret that you could see on his face, as a man, that he had not done what he thought was the right thing, and I think there is a tremendous lesson for us to live lives with no regrets – to do the right thing today, to obey Jesus Christ, His Word, and the commitments to responsibilities we have.  And one of the things He's commanded us to do that I think you can use Coach Wooden to accomplish is Christ has given us the Great Commission, and we're to go and proclaim Him.                         I think this interview with Coach Wooden we've compiled into 107 minutes, two CDs, that would make a great gift to give each of your children's coaches, whether they be a Little League coach, a junior high, high school, college, it doesn't matter.  In fact, Bob, I've reflected on this – many times I wish I'd had these two CDs to have given a coach who maybe was saying a little more than he should be saying; maybe acting a way that he shouldn't have been acting, and I just have to believe that there are some coaches who are going to get these CDs – some dads and some moms who are going to – they're going to think about how they coach, how they behave, how they teach in ways because of this great coach's example.  He is truly like Christ. Bob:                What they're going to hear in the interview with Coach Wooden that you can have character and integrity and self-control and still be a champion.  In fact, you can be one of the greatest coaches who ever lived.  We've got the two-CD set available here on our FamilyLife Resource Center, and whether you want to listen to it yourself or pass it on to a coach or a player, you can contact us at 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.  Ask for the two-CD set entitled "True Succes:  A Personal Visit with John Wooden" when you contact us.  Again, you can order online at FamilyLife.com or you can call 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. Dennis:          It's a little early yet to be buying a Father's Day gift, but you might think about just getting this and stockpiling this for June. Bob:                That's a great idea.  And when you think about true success, Coach Wooden has mapped out for us what he calls a "Pyramid of Success."  He's taken the character qualities that he thinks are foundational to success – things like industriousness, loyalty and cooperation and initiative and alertness and skill.  There are many of them in this pyramid.  He's put the pyramid together, kind of like an engineer would do, to show that it's possible for anyone to achieve success in any field if these things are true about them.                         We've got his Pyramid of Success.  We've got a video where he explains the pyramid.  We've got the pyramid itself on our website at FamilyLife.com and on a mousepad that you can have at your desk, and then we've got a wallet card that has been laminated that you can carry around where some of Coach Wooden's counsel on living is recorded.  His seven-point creed – that's on a laminated card that we'll send to you, along with the video and the mousepad.  Ask for those resources when you call 1-800-FLTODAY.                           You know, our opportunity to provide these kinds of resources to you really comes as a direct result of folks all around the country who help support this ministry week in and week out with donations. Dennis:          And, Bob, there are two ways that they can join with us.  One is as a Legacy Partner, a monthly donor to our ministry, and there's another group of people who give from time to time – they may make out a check and just send it in and say I can't help you each month, but I can help this month.  You need to know that this ministry is 100 percent dependent upon God to move people like you who benefit from our broadcast to join with us in a partnership, and we need your partnership.  These are important days for you to stand with us. Bob:                Once again, if you'd like to donate to FamilyLife Today, you can do it online at FamilyLife.com or call 1-800-FLTODAY or mail a check to us at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  Our zip code is 72221.                           Well, if you ever wondered what it was like to coach a basketball game in the Astrodome with TV lights blaring down on you, a nation watching, 50,000 fans there cheering the home team on, and you're the coach of the opposing team, and you've won 88 games in a row, you're going for number 89 and you lose – do you stay up all night worrying about what happened?  We'll find out when we talk to Coach John Wooden tomorrow.  I hope you can be with us for that.                         I want to thank our engineer today, Robbie Neal [sp], and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.    We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com 

Wisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 1) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 2) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 3) - John WoodenFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Pyramid of SuccessDay 3 of 3 Guest:                    John Wooden From the series:   True Success:  A Personal Visit with John Wooden  Bob:                There are a lot of skills in life that, according to Coach John Wooden, are more important than being able to hit a jumpshot or sink a free throw in the middle of a basketball game.  One of the character qualities that Coach Wooden tried to instill in all of his players was the quality of poise, which he defines as being comfortable with just being yourself. John:              The person who has poise is not acting, they're not pretending, they're not trying to be something they're not.  They are themselves, therefore, they are going to function in whatever they're doing near their own particular level of confidence.  There will be no fear, no trepidation at all.  They'll function near their own particular level of confidence, because they're not pretending, they're not trying to be something they're not. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, April 4th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  Before you sit down to watch the games this weekend, you ought to hear what The Coach has to say.  Stay with us.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Friday edition.  How does this work?  This is April, but this is the end of March Madness.  So is this just kind of a spillover?  Technically, is this April Madness that we're going to experience? Dennis:          I think it's March Madness without aspirin – there's been no cure, Bob. Bob:                Tomorrow, of course, are the semi-finals in college basketball, and then Monday night the championship game in what's called The Final Four, and it's all over the papers and all over the TV, and it's even here on FamilyLife Today, although we're not talking about this year's Final Four.  We are talking with a man who has been there year in and year out. Dennis:          He really has – Coach John Wooden coached UCLA to 10 national championships out of 12 years.  What a great man.  I just remember watching, as a young lad, his championship teams – the first year he won, 1964 – Gale Goodrich helped win that national championship.  He came back the next year and scored over 40 points in a game, and it's funny how you can remember those things as a kid, but basketball was a very important part of my life, and I think parents need to pay attention to their children's athletics.  Not just for their performance and whether or not they win the championships but the kind of coaches they have, the kind of influence that they have on them. And, Bob, you know, you were there when I received a phone call from the Washington Post asking me for my opinion if a parent should be informed if their daughter is going to play for a coach who is a lesbian, and they were wanting to know what I thought about that, and my ultimate point was character does matter, and a person's sexual practice and sexual preference are a reflection of his or her true character.  And Coach Wooden grew up in a family where he learned character, and he raised a family where they had great character. In fact, his daughter was in the room where we were interviewing him, and she was smiling so big during this interview, and she told us later it was one of her favorite interviews she's ever heard with her daddy who, at the time, Coach Wooden was 91 years of age.  And she was just beaming, because we were drilling down deep around the stories that surrounded their family. Bob:                You had asked him about regrets from coaching and yesterday we heard him share some of those regrets, and then you turned the conversation and asked him about any regrets at home.  Here is our interview with Coach John Wooden: Dennis:          I know something that I heard that you did that you don't regret, and that was spanking your daughter one time when she was in the fifth grade.  You're laughing.  You think it was the right thing? John:              Yes, I think it was the right thing.   Dennis:          Tell us about it. John:              Well, she had wanted very much a wristwatch, and I couldn't get the wristwatch at the time.  I had one coming for her.  I got her – and we got a cameo ring that we thought was very pretty and very nice, and when we gave it to her, we had some guests there – some friends – and she wanted the wristwatch.  She took that cameo ring and threw it, and she went to her room in a hurry with me after her, and I spanked her.  I think it's the only spanking that Nancy ever got from me.  I spanked her.  But what hurt her a lot is I made her march back in and apologize to our friends, and I think that hurt her worse.  I didn't hurt her too much on the spanking.  I remember that.  That's the only time. Dennis:          You were married for 53 years before Nellie's death. John:              Correct. Dennis:          It's my understanding that you have a tradition on the anniversary of her death – something that you're doing on a regular basis in honor of her. John:              Oh, I write her a letter, mm-hm.  We, Nan and Jim and I go to the cemetery, and we write her a letter. Dennis:          Just a letter expressing your heart, your love, your appreciation for the 53 years you shared with her? John:              More than that – there were several years before, you know, and still – still. Dennis:          She was a soulmate. John:              Indeed. Dennis:          How so? John:              Well, it will be kind of hard to explain just from first time, but there was something there almost from the first time we ever got acquainted, and she was the one for me, she was the one for me, she was the one for me. Bob:                Did she love basketball like you loved basketball? John:              She loved what I loved. Bob:                So if you loved basketball, she loved basketball. John:              That's right.  My main regret is that I didn't do the things that she liked to do.  She always did the things that I did.  She liked to dance, and I didn't.  I regret that I didn't learn to do more of the things – maybe go to operas and learn to dance and things of that sort.  Those are things I regret. Dennis:          What was your favorite quality about her? John:              I don't know how to answer favorites – it's just love, just love – something about her – I just loved her. Dennis:          Tell us how your relationship with Jesus Christ fit into your marriage and your family? John:              Well, I think that started going back in my early years.  My mother and father just good Christian people – not because they went to church and had us all go to church I don't think, necessarily, going to church makes you a good Christian, but Dad, I think, always reading the Scriptures every night, and I think that encouraged the children. Dennis:          Was there a time when you made a commitment as a young man or a boy to Jesus Christ that you look back on as being the time when your faith began? John:              I wish I could say that, but I can't.  I was baptized in 1927 with Nellie, because she wanted me to, and my parents wanted me to – and her parents – so I was baptized.  But in my heart I didn't really accept Christ then, and when I did, I can't say.  It wasn't a sudden overnight thing – something didn't happen.  I think it was just a gradual thing that came along.  I've heard of people saying one thing happened and it changed.  There wasn't any one thing. Bob:                Apart from your mom and dad, were there spiritual influences in your life as you went through coaching and as you continued as an adult? John:              Well, to some extent, many of the things that – I loved Lincoln – and many of the things of his life and his wonderful ability to say so much in just a few words and those things, and he was a spiritual man.  I think perhaps Billy Graham has always stood out to me above all others, and I don't want to say that the others aren't, but he just has stood out a little more in spiritual things.  And there have been things that have happened in my life that were strange – I wouldn't call them exactly spiritual.  I was in the service, I was to go aboard the USS Franklin in the South Pacific, and I had an emergency appendectomy, and somebody else went in my place, and that person who took my place was killed.  It wasn't my time. Bob:                The variety of players that you've had over the years – you've seen young men with all different orientations on life – some who have no interest in anything spiritual or religious; some who were devoutly interested in spiritual or religious things; in fact, it may have gotten in the way of their basketball sometimes, their interest in religious things, I don't know.  And then, of course, in a high-profile sense, you had one young man who had a very high-profile conversion that involved a name change.  What did you think when Lew Alcindor came and said, "I don't want to be called Lew anymore.  My new name is Kareem." John:              He never talked to me about it, and that wasn't done until after he was out of school.  I've had three players that have done that – all outstanding players.  Walter Hazzard was the first one – he changed Abdul-Rahman, but that was after he was out of school.  But here he has – his father's a minister, and he did.  And the third one is Keith Wilkes – now it's Jamaal.  I don't think I've ever known a finer person than Jamaal Wilkes – I don't know of a finer person, and his father also is a minister.  Now, he's the one that talked to me – all this happened after they left UCLA.  He asked me what I thought about it, and I said, "Well, it seems that most religions rely on our second commandment and not the first," which I don't approve of it, but I said, "What does your dad say?"  He said, "About the same thing as you said." Dennis:          Coach, when I was a young man, I was in junior college – I think it was my sophomore year, when you played Houston in the Astrodome in front of 52,000 fans.  It was a big showdown – number one, UCLA, undefeated, with Lew Alcindor against Elvin Hayes and the number-two ranked Houston Cougars. John:              It was the most widely televised athletic event for that time – the most widely televised, and there was about 52,000, they tell me, paid, but over 55,000 in there. Bob:                A few guys snuck in without paying, huh? (laughter)  Dennis:          What were you feeling?  I mean, did you feel anything any different about that game than any other game?   John:              No, I didn't.  I didn't think it was a place to play basketball – had that floor way out there, and you're a quarter of a mile from your dressing room.  I told me players that if they had needs to go to the bathroom, they better do it quick, because we're not going to have time for you to walk a quarter of a mile to go do it.  It was a tremendous ball game, and it was good for basketball, very good for basketball. Dennis:          As you have been a coach over the years, and a teacher, you have developed a definition of success and what you'd call the Pyramid of Success.  Could you just explain, just briefly, to our listeners the definition of success and what you've created here in this Pyramid of Success? John:              Well, first of all, as an English teacher, I became a little bit disappointed, disillusioned somewhat that parents of youngsters in my English classes – many, if they're youngster did not receive and A or a B in one way or another I found that many parents would make the youngster or the teacher feel that they had failed.  Now, our good Lord, in His infinite wisdom, didn't create us all alike as far as intelligence is concerned, any more than we're not alike as far as appearance or size or anything else.  Not everybody could earn an A or B, and I had youngsters that didn't that I thought did very well.  I'd be proud of them if I were the parent. But I didn't like that way of judging, and I wanted to come up with my own definition of success, and it came from three things.  One, my father tried to teach us to never try to be better than somebody else.  Always learn from others and never cease trying to be the best you can be.  That's under your control, and the other isn't, and if you get too involved and engrossed and concerned in regard to things over which you have no control, it will adversely affect the things over which you have control.   And I also recalled a discussion in class that we'd had many years before where success was discussed and most everyone went along with Mr. Webster's definition – "the accumulation of material possession or the attainment of position of power or prestige," or something of that sort.  And then I ran across a verse, and as you have indicated, I like verse, and I ran across this simple verse that said, "At God's footstool to confess, a poor soul knelt and bowed his head; 'I have failed,' he cried; the Master said 'Thou didst thy best.'  That is success."  I believe that's true. And from those three things I coined my own definition of success.  Success is peace of mind attained only through self-satisfaction in knowing you made the effort to become the best of which you are capable, and you're the only one who will know that.  You can fool everybody else.  It's like character and reputation – your character – you're the only one that knows, and you're reputation is what you're perceived to be by others, but your character is what you really are. So that was what I wanted to use to help me become a better teacher and to give the youngsters under my supervision something to which to aspire other than just a higher mark or more points in some athletic endeavor, but it didn't seem to be serving a purpose for which I had hoped, and I had tried to analyze it, and I came to the conclusion that it would be much better if I came up with something you could see.  But it gave me an idea of a pyramid, and I started working on that, and I worked on it for the next 14 years.  But somehow the first two blocks I selected were the cornerstones, and if any structure is to have any real strength and solidity, it must have a strong foundation, and the cornerstones anchor it, and I used "industrious" and "enthusiasm," and I believe that today. From those two, and I think they're strong – you have to enjoy what you're doing, and you have to work hard.  You can't work near your own particular ability level unless you enjoy what you're doing.  You may think you are, but you can't unless you really enjoy it.  And, along with the foundation, I wanted blocks that included others, so I chose "friendship," "loyalty," and "cooperation," and then gradually moved up to the second tier – "self-control," "alertness," "initiative" and "intentness."  And then going up to the heart, which I call being in condition for whatever you're doing – whether you're an athlete, whether you're a surgeon, whether you're a deep-sea diver – whatever you are – being in condition for whatever you're doing can be attained by practicing moderation. And then you have to have the skills.  You must know how to do things, you must be able to do it, and you must be able to do them quickly, oftentimes.  Then "team spirit" – that's consideration for others.  I could talk on that for a long time – consideration for others.  And all these blocks below will help you become confident.  You can't have confidence unless you're prepared.  Failure to prepare is preparing to fail, and you can't have confidence without being prepared, or you can't have that without the blocks below. You must have confidence, and then you must have poise, and I also coined my own definition of poise and poise, to me, is just being yourself.  The person who has poise is not acting, they're not pretending, they're not trying to be something they're not.  They are themselves, therefore, they are going to function in whatever they're doing near their own particular level of confidence.  There will be no fear, no trepidation at all.  They'll function near their own particular level of confidence, because they're not pretending, they're not trying to be something they're not. And all these blocks will make you competitive – competitive.  You'll enjoy it, you'll enjoy it.  There's joy in being involved in something difficult.  There's no great joy in doing things that anybody else can do, although they must be done to the best of your ability regardless of whether difficult or easy, but the joy comes in being involved in a difficult situation, and these blocks below will bring them up.  And then leading up to the apex on which success rests, I put on one side, "patience" and "faith."  Good things take time and should.  We don't want them to, but they should.  Things should take time, and we must have faith.  We must have faith that things will work out as they should, which doesn't mean that they'll work out exactly as we want them to.  But if we have faith, and we do what we should – too often we want things to happen a certain way, but we don't do the things that would necessarily help that become reality.  We just want it to happen.  But you have to have faith.  If you do what you should, things will work out as they should.  So that's a very brief synopsis of the pyramid. Dennis:          Well, I'm sitting here looking at the actual pyramid, Bob, and we're going to put it on the website as well – FamilyLife.com – and give folks a picture of this pyramid and what it exactly is, but he nailed it perfectly. Bob:                Without looking at it. Dennis:          Without looking at the copy I've got.  I just want to say, Coach, to you, thank you for living an exemplary life, for being a man who has taught many of us over your lifetime, and I just appreciate you joining Bob and me and cheering on some moms and dads and husbands and wives who are in the throes of raising the next generation of young people.  Thanks for helping us build a great team here on FamilyLife Today. John:              You're very kind, and I appreciate the kind words. Bob:                Well, that is the voice of legendary coach John Wooden who, today, is 92 years old, and undoubtedly on his way to catch the games this weekend and Monday night in the Final Four.  He said he's been to most of them, even since his retirement, and just to hear the humility in his voice.  That was characteristic of Coach Wooden all the way through his life, wasn't it? Dennis:          It really was and, again, I just had to go back to the Book of Proverbs and think about Solomon speaking to his son and exhorting him – "acquire understanding, embrace wisdom, listen to the words of your father.  Heed them, and you'll live.  If you don't, you'll be a fool, and you'll die."  And Coach Wooden has exhorted us over the past couple of days to heed well our assignments in life, whether we be single, married, parents, grandparents, but to leave a legacy.                         You remember, Bob, I told our listeners that there was a story I was going to conclude today with that is a real favorite, and I want to do that in just a moment, but I want you to tell our listeners how they can get a copy of this CD that we're making available for – not just the basketball players, but for dads and for coaches of any and every sport that your children may know. Bob:                It's actually a two-CD set that features our entire conversation with Coach Wooden, much of which we were not able to include over the last three days here on FamilyLife Today.  This hour-and-47-minute conversation took place not long ago as we sat down with Coach Wooden and just probed issues relating to his life, his marriage, his family, his coaching, and his view of success, and it's a great tool to pass on, as you said, Dennis, to players, to coaches, to enthusiasts, to fans.  It's a great way to open a door and begin to talk with them about what makes up true greatness in a life and in a profession. Dennis:          You may want to consider getting multiple copies of these CDs because you really only heard about half of the material, over the last three days, that are on these sets that we recorded. Bob:                You can call us at 1-800-FLTODAY to request the two-CD set.  Again, it's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.  You can also go online to order at FamilyLife.com.  While you're online, you can see John Wooden's Pyramid of Success.  The Coach sat down, and he has got the mind of an engineer and the soul of a poet, and he laid out for us a pyramid, where he said here's what I think real success looks like, and how you achieve competitive greatness.  It's built on poise and confidence and then on conditioning and skill and team spirit.  He lays out all of the qualities that make up real success.                          We've got a video where Coach explains that success pyramid along with a mousepad that has the pyramid on it and a pocket-sized card you can carry along that has some of Coach Wooden's counsel on how to live on this wallet-size card.  It would be a great gift to give to somebody who loves the sport, loves The Coach.  You can call 1-800-FLTODAY for more information about these resources or about the two-CD set of our interviews with Coach Wooden.  Again, it's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.  Dennis. Dennis:          I mentioned a story that I was going to share about – at the end of our interview, we got up to leave, and Coach Wooden was using a cane to kind of make his way to the elevator, and he gave me a book and you, too, I believe, Bob, and I took the book, and it was about leadership, and I said, "Coach, would you just mind signing that to me, and as you did, Coach," I said, "you don't know this about me, but I was pretty good in high school.  I set the school record, which still stands, for most points scored.  I played junior college basketball on scholarship and, Coach, I remember watching you as a kid growing up," and I said, "If you wouldn't mind, Coach, would you just write in the front – 'To Dennis – you could have played for me at UCLA.  Signed, Coach John Wooden,' and then date it."                         He looked up at me, and a little mischievous grin worked its way across his lips, and he said, "Dennis, we just talked about integrity, didn't we?  I can't do that."  He said, "But here," and he reached up, kind of in a spry way and took the book from my hands, and began to write, and he was just getting a bigger and bigger grin as he wrote, and he closed the cover and handed it back to me and said, "There you go."  And I now have that book in my office.  It says, "To Dennis – Since I never recruited out of state, why didn't you call me?  Coach John Wooden."  That will be one of my prized possessions in everything that I own. Bob:                FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.    We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com 

Daring to Hope (Part 1) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 2) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 3) - Katie Davis MajorsFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Leaning on Jesus Guest:                        Katie Davis MajorsFrom the series:       Daring to Hope (Day 1 of 3)  Bob: In the midst of pain and suffering, even those with deep faith find themselves asking questions and wondering, “Why?” Here's Katie Davis Majors. Katie: We know we're supposed to say: “God is in control. God's plan is better,” but what about when we are not feeling that? What about when we are not seeing that? I think another thing God really showed me was that He hurts when I hurt. He desires to comfort me, because He understands my pain. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, December 18th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll hear from Katie Davis Majors today about how Jesus becomes real when we walk through the valley of the shadow. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. We've got a hero back in the studio with us today. Dennis: We do. I don't think we've ever had a guest introduced by their 14-year-old daughter, but that's what we're going to do here on the broadcast. I, first of all, want to welcome back Katie Davis Majors, married now for how many years? Katie: Almost three! Dennis: Almost three. You'll hear more about that in a moment.  My wife Barbara also joins us on the broadcast. Welcome back, Sweetheart. Barbara: Thanks! It's a delight to be here. Dennis: Katie has written a book called Daring to Hope. Many of you probably heard about Katie, about a decade ago, when she wrote a New York Times best-seller, Kisses from Katie. It's a story about her adopting a few Ugandan young ladies. One of those young ladies wrote the afterword for your book—I'm not going to read it all. Katie: Okay. Dennis: It's really not fair that I don't read it all!  2:00 Her name is Joyce—she's 14. Here's what she said about her mom:  Katie Majors is my mother. No mother is as brilliant, gorgeous, talented, and fabulous as my sweet, awesome mother! Barbara: Sweet! Dennis: You have really got her snowed; don't you? [Laughter] That's not what you say in your book—you talk about losing your temper and getting impatient; but somehow, she didn't ever see any of those moments, I guess; huh? Katie: She's gracious! [Laughter] Dennis: She concludes by saying this:  I pray for my mom each day that God would continue to bless her life and use her to do incredible things. I love my mother because she brings glory to God, not only through her gifts, but also by calling out gifts and talents in others, including me. She speaks to us that we, too, can be used by God.  3:00 He works through her to shine His light into the hearts of many. I admire my mother; and I pray that I, too, can live a life like hers, serving others first before myself. No matter what my mother goes through, she will tell you that it is okay; because God has always been with her. She teaches me that I can trust Him to be with me too.                                                      Joyce Liberty Majors, age 14 Bob: And a lot of listeners are going, “How do you get a 14-year-old to say things like that about their mother?” [Laughter] Barbara: Exactly! [Laughter] Katie: Yes; you're going to make me cry at the beginning of this interview! Dennis: Where did you find Joyce? Katie: Joyce came to me when she was about five-and-a-half. She had lost both of her parents in the war in northern Uganda. She had been shuffled around since then in some pretty dangerous situations when she was brought to me.  4:00 Dennis: She is one, now, of how many that you have become “Mom” to? Katie: She's one of 14 kids—13 through adoption and 1 that we just gave birth to about a year-and-a-half ago. Dennis: And there's a new dimension to your life that I hinted at earlier—the second love of your life—God being the first. Katie: Yes; yes! Dennis: Benji—tell us about Benji. Katie: Benji! So Benji moved to Uganda about seven years ago. He was really—he had come on a short-term trip to volunteer at a special needs orphanage; but he was really burdened that there were a lot of ministries pouring into women, and a lot of ministries really helping out children, and not a lot of ministries pouring into men—discipling them and teaching them to be good fathers and good husbands. So, he came back, fulltime, just to disciple men and to encourage them in their roles as husband, father, [and] provider for the family.  5:00 He has been doing that now for about seven years.  We met when he first came to Uganda. Dennis: Okay; I'm going to stop you there, because we're going to tell more of this story on a later broadcast. Katie: Okay; okay! [Laughter] Dennis: Your book begins in your kitchen.  Katie: Yes. Dennis: It's a place where relationships are made / miracles occur. I love it—you must have a little bit of a perfectionist in you—because you talk about mud, and red dirt, and footprints in the first couple of pages of your book that all 14 of these children that you've adopted have to track in there. Katie: Oh, yes! [Laughter] I spend a lot of time in the kitchen, and the kitchen is not very clean a lot of the time. You know, it's amazing how that can happen! It's perfectly pristine before we go to bed; and then, six o'clock in the morning rolls around, and somehow it's in disarray again. Barbara: That sounds like most kitchens for most women! [Laughter] When I started reading that, I thought: “Oh! That sounds like my kitchen!”  6:00It was always sticky on the floor and crumbs everywhere. It's just a part of having a family and having kids. Life does happen in the kitchen. Katie: Yes! Dennis: Your book, Daring to Hope—I told Bob, before you came into the studio—I said, “This is really a book that could be titled Reality Check; because the reality that you have faced in Uganda, over the last decade, has really grown you up in a lot of ways, spiritually.” Comment on that if you would. Katie: Yes; it absolutely has. I mean, I think, in Uganda, suffering is so in your face; but really, that's world-over; right? You can't even turn on the news without seeing some terrible tragedy. I think anybody who can really, truly say that they believe in a good and loving Father has had to ask the question: “Okay; are You really good? And are You really loving? And if You really are good and loving, why is all of this going on around me?” 7:00 Daring to Hope, really, is kind of the chronicle of my journey through some of those questions.  Dennis: Yes; and I would say: “If there's a listener, right now, who's going through a hard time—and you're kind of confused—you're maybe disappointed/discouraged—I think Daring to Hope would be a great book to pick up and read; because it's going to pull you out of your valley and remind you of the truth about God. That's really the message of Katie's book. She just wants people to know the truth about God so, as they face their reality, they will be able to trust Him as well. Bob: Yes. Katie: Thank you. I really did write it to encourage people that, no matter what they're going through—you know, it probably looks a lot different than what I was going through in Uganda—but in the midst of pain and hardship and trial, I knew Jesus in a way that I wouldn't have known Him outside of those circumstances. I believe that's His desire for all of us, no matter what our hardship is— 8:00 —just that we would know His comfort and we would know that we are so deeply loved. Bob: The last time you were with us, you shared about how, as a teenager, God gave you a heart and a vision for Uganda. You went there at 19 to care for orphans; and you started caring for them, and you started bringing them home. You started adopting them. Before you were married, you were already a mother to—how many was it? Katie: Thirteen. Bob: Thirteen kids. So you haven't adopted any new ones since marriage? Katie: No; we had all 13 of our girls before we got married. Bob: And have you thought about expanding since you've been married? You've obviously expanded, because you've got a new baby in the house. Have you thought about additional adoptions, or is 13 where it ends? Katie: Well, I mean, I think we're really open to however the Lord leads. If He would make a need very apparent, then we would definitely be open to it. I think we've seen more and more, over the years, the beauty of empowering local people to adopt.  9:00 We've seen local people become more and more open to the idea of adopting.  My 13 girls were all situations where—through our ministry, we sponsor children—we send them to school; we pay for some of their food; we do a discipleship program with them—all in the hopes of keeping them with their biological family, because most biological families really do want their kids. It's just such a financial burden for them that they give them up. Our ministry is really geared toward empowering the family to care for their own children. My 13 are all groups of siblings that were older and, for whatever reason, either didn't have biological family they could be placed with or it wasn't a safe situation for them. But in the last, probably, seven years, we've had several more instances where that has happened with children that we're in relationship with through ministry—  10:00 —maybe both of their parents have died or maybe they're already staying with a grandparent and the grandparent has died. We've actually had a lot of Ugandan staff in our ministry say, “Oh, I could open my home to that child,”—especially because Amazima is covering the basics like medical care or schooling. The Ugandan culture is beautifully hospitable and relational. We've just seen so much openness from our staff and other Ugandans, we're in relationship with, to adopt. I think, for us, it's really on our hearts that we would first—we would, first, always seek out biological family; but even beyond that, we would seek out if there were a Ugandan family in our community that would desire to adopt that child. Dennis: You've been foster care parents— Katie: Yes. Dennis: —for a lot of kids. Katie: Yes. Dennis: One of the reasons why is the HIV/AIDS virus that has taken out so many people's lives in Uganda. Katie: Yes. 11:00 Dennis: I don't think people in America realize what this disease is doing to the populations of many African countries. Tell about the little girl, by the name of Jane, who came to you because of that disease. Katie: Jane is a child we fostered, but we fostered her long-term. We've had other short-term foster children, in and out of our home over the years, but we've always known that they were a short-term placement and that our goal was reunification with family.  With Jane, we didn't believe that that was our goal. Jane had been abandoned when she was about nine months old and brought to me when she was around one. We searched and we looked for her biological family. We sent out radio and newspaper advertisements; and we didn't find any family that was willing to care for her. I began fostering her and began the process to make her adoption legal as well. We had her for about three years when her biological mom came back in the country from Kenya. 12:00 She tracked us down and, really, just showed up and said that she desired to parent Jane. I mean, my heart was just torn in two; because my life's ministry was about empowering the family and, at the same time, I felt like this was my daughter. I was the only mother she had ever known since I'd had her from the time she was a little baby. She was a sister to my daughters. This was really not something that we had expected or seen coming.  That's kind of one of the first stories in the book, where I begin kind of asking God, “Okay; when I'm praying and I'm praying—and I'm praying for something specific, such as Jane to come back and live with us—and that doesn't happen, ‘Where are you then, God?'” or “If I think I know what's best for me, for my family, [and[ for this child, who is now confused and traumatized— 13:00 —and I think I know what would be good for her—how do I trust that, “No, truly, God knows what's best for each one of us involved'?” Dennis: And Jane's mom was not skilled, as a parent; and you could easily spot that. You knew that you were handing her back over to her biological mom to be raised in, certainly, a less-than-perfect situation. Katie: Yes; it was very scary—her mom didn't have a great track record. She went to live there for a little while, and then they actually ended up coming to stay with us for a while while her mom was between jobs. I feel like we were able to pour into both of them for a while, and then her mom got another job and was able to move out for a while. But since then—they lived near us for a long time—and since then, they have moved away; so we don't even really have a ton of contact with them anymore. Dennis: You know, that question that you found yourself wrestling with is a question that we all wrestle with in life. Katie: Right. 14:00 Bob: I remember back when the shooting in Las Vegas happened in the United States. I wrote an article about: “How do we process this kind of disaster? How do we help our kids understand it?” I said, “You've got to remind yourself of what's true—that God is in control / that He's sovereign.” I kind of rehearsed what we all know is true. Katie: Right. Bob: And I remember somebody commenting at the bottom of the article with, “Yeah, yeah, yeah; blah, blah, blah,” and I get it. Katie: Right. Dennis: Sure. Bob: I get that that is a less-than-satisfying answer in the midst of the pain, but I don't know a better answer to that; do you? Katie: I don't. I know—you know, as I was writing this book, I didn't want it to be a bunch of Christian platitudes; right? Bob: Right; right. 15:00 Katie: We know we're supposed to say: “God is in control. God's plan is better,” but what about when we are not feeling that? What about when we are not seeing that? I think another thing God really showed me was that He hurts when I hurt. He desires to comfort me, because He understands my pain. It's the same, you know, for the shooting in Las Vegas—for people who've lost people—it's not that God looks on and says, “Okay; okay,”—you know? God is devastated by that suffering. He is deeply grieved, and He hurts alongside of us. I think that gave me even more comfort than knowing that God was in control— Bob: Yes. Katie: —and knowing that God had a plan. I was comforted knowing that God saw my hurt. He experienced it with me, and He desired to love me in the midst of it. Bob: In Romans, Chapter 8, where it talks about the reality of our adoption— 16:00 —that God has adopted us / that we are joint-heirs—it goes on to throw this curve ball in the middle of talking about all of this blessing. It says, “Here is what God has given to those He loves—we have His Spirit / we are joint-heirs if we suffer with Him.” Katie: Yes; yes. Bob: It's kind of like: “Why did you have to throw that in there, God? Why couldn't it just be, ‘Here's what you get'?” Dennis: Yes. Bob: But there is a connection between glory and suffering— Katie: Yes. Bob: —that we're adverse to, but that is a part of God's plan for us. Katie: I absolutely believe that. You know, Paul even says that “it has been granted unto me, not just to preach the gospel of Christ, but to suffer with Him.” Bob: Yes. Katie: I always read that and think: “Oh, God! Let that be my perspective on it—that it has been granted unto me—because, through suffering, I might know a part of God's heart that I wouldn't know otherwise.” Dennis: I have a friend, who was in a tragic plane crash. While he was struggling for his life in the hospital, I performed the funeral for his five-year-old son. He made this statement that certainly anyone could make; but a person in his place, having lost a son—it just becomes really profound—he said, “Life wouldn't be so difficult if we didn't expect it to be so easy.” And what your book does—is your book really forces us to realize that there are going to be prayers that appear to be unanswered. Katie: Yes. Dennis: There's going to be brokenness that continues on—in our own lives and in the lives of those we love—but we have to trust the God Who is going to be near us. That's really the message of your book— 18:00 —that, in the process of struggling over these prayers that appear to be unanswered or have an answer that's a “No,”—you've gotten to know Jesus Christ in a way you couldn't have known Him otherwise. Katie: Yes! Absolutely! I think I've learned that God isn't promising us a world without trouble, or without pain, or without heartache; but He's promising us Himself; right? He calls Himself “Emmanuel” / “God with us.” He's promising to be near to us, and that's the greatest gift. Barbara: Well, I couldn't agree more; because I have learned over the decades of my life that the hard times are the times when I have gotten to know Christ more. He knows that about us. He knows that if life is easy—and it's good and everything works out the way we want it to—we're not going to need Him—we won't depend on Him / we won't be forced, on our face, to seek Him. And so, as hard as the hard things are, they're really good things—good that God intends to work in us.  19:00 I was just talking to someone last weekend about this—we were both saying, “We wouldn't wish what we've been through on anyone, but we wouldn't trade it for anything because of what we know of Him now that we wouldn't have known apart from that experience.” That's a part of what I love so much about your book—is that it speaks to that—that everyone experiences. God deals with us, as individuals. What He brings in your life is different than what He brings in my life; but it's all for the purpose of knowing Him and knowing Him as He really is, not as we imagine Him to be. That's such a good thing. Dennis: I can't imagine a 29-year-old writing this book. That's what I told Bob when we came in the studio—I said: “It's because of where Katie's been/— Barbara: Yes. Katie: That's right. Dennis: —“it is what she's seen—the number of people she's prayed over for healing, for God to rescue them from HIV/AIDS, and God said, ‘No,' and took them on to heaven.” Katie: Yes. 20:00 Dennis: But you have a perspective that you're passing on that I think, really—Bob, all of us today in America, where we live with so many comforts and we're removed from the slums, where Katie has taught a Bible study. We're removed from the graveside—we may go to a funeral or two a year—but Katie's been to a bunch of them over the years, and that's where perspective is. Ecclesiastes says, “It is better to go to the house of mourning than it is to go to the house of pleasure; because in the end, the living take it to heart.” Bob: You know, this is a book that reminds us that most of the problems that we're facing are what we call “first world problems.” That doesn't mean they're not real and challenging; it just means we have to keep life in perspective and know what really matters.  Katie, you point us to that in your book, Daring to Hope: Finding God's Goodness in the Broken and the Beautiful.  21:00 We've got copies of the book in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to order. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”  I have to tell you—we just recently had an opportunity to be in a number of cities with listeners to FamilyLife Today and had a chance to hear from many of you how God has used this ministry in your life in some significant ways—and how He is still at work, using the ministry of FamilyLife Today to help you grow in grace / to provide practical biblical help and hope to your marriage / your family. It's always encouraging when we get an opportunity to be face to face with listeners.  22:00  On behalf of the folks we had a chance to meet, I want to thank those of you who are Legacy Partners and those of you who support this ministry financially. You need to know that your investment in the lives of people all across the country and around the world is paying off. God is using FamilyLife Today powerfully in the lives of so many people. It was encouraging for us to see some of that first-hand.  I know some of you are thinking about yearend giving—ministries or organizations where you might like to make a yearend financial contribution. We have a special opportunity for you, here, at FamilyLife to be invested in this ministry. There's a matching-gift fund that's been made available to us; and it means that your donation, here, at yearend will be doubled. Our friend, Michelle Hill, is here with an update on how things are going with the matching-gift fund. Hello, Michelle! 23:00 Michelle: Bob, I have some BIG news about the match fund!...and this is breaking for us, so I'm a little out on a limb here, but Jordan just told me the matching fund is going to double…as in over four million dollars!! (…and we don't know exactly because this is happening almost as I speak) …but more than ever, we'll need every listener to pray, seek God, and give as He directs. You know, four million dollars seems big to me…but Bob? I believe God's generosity is at work here, so I'm asking everyone, please just prayerfully do whatever God calls you to do to, and you know what? While you're at it, praise Him for His amazing generosity! right now we're at seven hundred ninety one thousand dollars!  Bob: And it is easy to make an online donation. You can do that at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223.  24:00 We'll look forward to your update again tomorrow, Michelle.  And we hope you'll be back with us again tomorrow when Katie Davis Majors will be here. We're continuing to talk about her life in Africa and her life as a newly-married adoptive mother of 13 children and a bio mom of a baby boy. I hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com   

Daring to Hope (Part 1) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 2) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 3) - Katie Davis MajorsFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. God Shows Up Guest:                         Katie Davis Majors               From the series:       Daring to Hope (Day 2 of 3)  Bob: Katie Davis Majors says there are certain things that adoptive parents understand that bio parents just can't fully appreciate. Katie: What better way to clearly understand God's heart for us than to bring a child, who is not biologically related to you, into your home and call them your own and believe that they're your own? I now have adopted children and a biological child. I can say, with certainty, that my love for them is the same. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, December 19th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. There's a lot we can learn, as followers of Jesus, when we go near the orphan or those in need. We'll hear more about that today from Katie Davis Majors. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I was coming back from a trip recently—I was grousing about the poor condition of the airplane I was on. It was an older plane—seats were kind of hard and, you know, I was cramped up. I went on Twitter® and I just—[Laughter] Dennis: Oh, you belly-ached on— Katie: —to the whole world!  Barbara: Oh! My goodness! Bob: —belly-ached to the particular airline in question. Dennis: Oh, really? Bob: I called them out and said, “It's time to upgrade your planes.” A friend of mine “tweeted” back at me and he said, “You need to fly to better destinations.” I “tweeted” back to him—I said, “There's no better destination than home.” Dennis: Ooh! Bob: Yes.  Dennis: There you go! Bob: Yes; “Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home”; right? Dennis: Well, I have to ask this; because she was snickering as you were telling that story. It's like you don't have any idea about the condition— Bob: —what a bad airline is? [Laughter] Dennis: Yes. Katie Davis Majors joins us on the broadcast. Katie lives in Uganda.  2:00 Can you tell us a story of a flight on an airplane in Uganda? Barbara: Or even a road, maybe. Driving a car down a road is probably just as bad. Dennis: Oh, exactly. Katie: Yes; the only time that I get in an airplane in Uganda would be to fly overseas, so then the airplane isn't terrible; but the condition of the roads is not great. Dennis: Well, I think there's no question that we're spoiled, here, in America with all of our services. Bob: I think you're right. Dennis: Katie is the author of a new book called Daring to Hope: Finding God's Goodness in the Broken and the Beautiful. She is a mom to 14; a wife to 1, Benji, which is a great story in and of itself; and they've had a little boy of their own named Noah.  This is a book about, really, finding God through the interruptions of life, what we would call an interruption. Bob was interrupted by the seat in his airplane. You were interrupted, one day, by a guy, who was on your doorstep, by the name of Mack.  3:00 You generally have taken care of girls, but this was a guy who needed help. Katie: Right; yes. Mack was brought to me from one of the communities that we work in, by a social worker on our staff. She had found him, and he had been severely burned. His leg—you could almost see the bone, it had been burned so badly and so deeply.  You know, I thought I knew Mack. He was the village alcoholic. He was the guy who was getting in my way on my way to Bible study—he was the guy who was yelling profanities, and I would cover my children's ears. I had shrugged him off as an annoyance—as that kind of person. So, when she showed up with him—my sweet social worker, Christine—I kind of shook my head at her; but he was badly hurt, so we proceeded to three different hospitals. We were told all three times that his leg would have to be amputated, because it was so badly injured.  4:00 The hospitals in Uganda, where we live, are pretty understaffed and very under-resourced. The doctor explained to me that his leg did have a chance if somebody could bandage it and dress it every single day; but he said, “My nursing staff here, with this many patients, we don't have enough gauze, we don't have strong enough antibiotics; we won't be able to do this every day. If you'd like, I can show you how and you can do it at home.” I said, “Okay,” which is funny to me now. You know, sometimes, you wonder, “Okay; God, what?”—how did I…” / “I did?” Barbara: “How did that come out of my mouth?” [Laughter] Katie: I said, “That was fine”; but I did. We've been privileged, over the last many years, the house that we live in has a really simple guesthouse in the back—it's really just a line of small rooms. So, we do have a place where it is safe to let other people live. They're not inside our home, and so— 5:00 Dennis: Yes; that's one of my first thoughts: “What's a guy like this going to do in a house with so many young ladies?” Katie: Right. So that's why I felt safe about the fact that we had some good separation between our house and the guest home; and I have people like social workers on my staff who are able to come and help out with this sort of thing.  But he stayed—he wasn't actually allowed to come up to the main house—so I would go back there on the porch of his room every day and dress his wound. Slowly, he began to sober up; and this really gentle, genuine side of him came out. He began to tell me his story of all the tragic things that happened in his life that had led him to this point. God really just gave me such a compassion for him.  We don't get to our brokenness just because—you know, really terrible things had happened to him that had led him to this place. As I changed his wound each day for almost an entire year—it was about ten months / maybe closer to eleven that I was changing that dressing.  6:00 Every day, for about an hour, he would tell me little pieces of his story. I would share with him little pieces of the gospel and how I really believed that, not only was God going to make his leg whole, but God was going to make all of us whole.  We had just endured some loss in our family—we had lost a foster daughter that had lived with us for a long time. I really think, as I watched Mack's leg heal, that God was doing a lot of healing in my heart. As I testified to Mack who I had known Jesus to be, God was really having me say some of those things to remind myself of what I believed. Dennis: So, how could you do that? I mean, seriously—bring a total stranger in there? What was the motivation? What was the heart that caused you to care for that guy for 12 months? Katie: It wasn't—I mean, it the first time we had had a stranger in dire need show up and need a place to stay.  7:00 For Mack, I think, I was looking for healing / I was looking for redemption. I had not seen a happy ending in my family's story recently as we had lost of our daughters to the foster care system. I wanted to believe that God would heal this wound, and I wanted to watch it happen. Through that, God did a lot of healing in my own life. He definitely healed Mack's leg. A year later, Mack was up walking around the yard, raking our leaves for us / taking out our trash, just like a dependable, fun uncle for the kids. He had gotten a job at a local dentist—he's a dental assistant now. And actually, my friend Benji—who was just a friend, at the time, and was doing men's ministry in the area—I had reached out to him and said: “Hey, I don't usually have guys around, but there's this man that's ended up living in our guest house. He needs a man to be discipling him. Would you be willing to come do that?”   8:00 Benji began meeting with him multiple times a week for several hours, just studying the Word together. About a year-and-a-half after Mack had moved in with us, he put his trust in Jesus. He walked into my kitchen and he said, “I believe that Jesus is the Son of God,” and then he turned around and walked out. I stood in the kitchen and just cried, and yelled, and, I mean, was so excited. Bob: You know, Katie, I have a picture in my head of the gospel being proclaimed in—I don't know if it's in Uganda, but in parts of Africa—sadly, sometimes a shallow, consumeristic gospel, making promises and then shallow conversions that are momentary. It's like: “We'll try this witch doctor, because the last one wasn't so good.” Talk a little bit about the ministry of the gospel that you're involved with and what you're trying to do to counteract what's going on in lots of places in Africa. 9:00 Katie: You're absolutely right. We see a lot of that—the shallow conversion—everybody's looking for an answer; right?—so: “I might as well try this out. These people say that it can work.” It's difficult, too, to be white in an African country and proclaiming the gospel; because you want people to come to the gospel for the gospel, not because of something that they think you might offer them. So, you know, we've seen two things in ministry that we are both very passionate about—and that Amazima, as a whole, is very passionate about—one is just relational ministry / one on one over a very long period of time, discipleship through studying Scripture together. Another is equipping locals. We have some ex-patriot staff, but we have mostly Ugandan staff.  The goal of the ex-patriot staff is really just to equip the Ugandan staff with good, deep theology and the true Word of God so that the Ugandan staff members can be the ones discipling, especially the children in our program.  10:00 All of the families and children in our programs are assigned a mentor, who's a social worker; and they're all Ugandan. So, as an ex-patriot, we are really kind of behind the scenes, trying to encourage these Ugandan leaders to be the people sharing the gospel; because I feel like it's [better] received.  I say this a lot: “You can pour all the money, and all the resources, and build all the buildings and have all the projects; but in ten years in Uganda, the stories where I see true life change are people who have had a one-on-one relationship with someone who is pointing them to Christ. I think relational ministry is where it's at. Bob: What you're talking about—I remember, a few years ago, reading the book, When Helping Hurts, which I know you've read. Katie: Yes. 11:00 Bob: That's a part of the thesis. We have—in this country, we have a desire to want to help; and yet, we can throw a lot of resources at stuff that's actually counter-productive. Katie: Yes; and let's be serious—helping feels good. You know, it's not just about the person I'm helping; it fills me up as well. I believe that God intended it that way—that giving would be joyful and that acts of mercy would be done cheerfully—but I also think we need to walk with wisdom in that and how to best steward the gospel to a different people. Dennis: Katie, I know you believe this; but one of the things Barbara and I have really attempted to champion is encouraging believers / followers of Christ to get involved in the foster care system of our nation. You've been deeply involved in foster care; and to go back to what Bob said earlier—if you want to help someone, there is a natural way, right now, because there are almost 500,000 children in America—you don't have to go to Uganda to find one of them. 12:00 Katie: Yes; yes; right. Dennis: Many of them are going to age out of the system without a parent.  Barbara, we just had a delightful dinner with a man who has a passion for this as well. Barbara: We did. We had dinner a couple of weeks ago with a pastor whose name is Bishop Martin. He and his wife have adopted a number of young men and women out of the foster care system. He is passionate about us doing that, as a body of Christ, in America. In fact, our oldest daughter has been involved in fostering children for years, and they've had—I don't know how many—23/25 children through their house, and two of them they ended up adopting. It has really opened our eyes. We adopted too—one of our six is adopted—but we didn't do foster care. We have such a passion to see families welcome these children. The complaint that our daughter, Ashley, hears all the time—and I hear it as well—is: “That would be too hard, and it would hurt too much to give them up.”  13:00 I think this book that you've written will really help address that, because I think we shy away because of the pain of entering into someone's life. But when we do back off from entering into someone's life—whether it's a foster child or whether it's helping someone like you did [for] Mack—we don't realize that we're cutting ourselves off from knowing God in a way that we would not apart from that experience.  I love it that you're doing foster care in Uganda, and bringing children into your home, and writing about it so that maybe more American families will address the need that's right under our noses in our own backyards; because there are so many children who need to be touched—who need to be loved / who need to understand what a relationship is like. They've been shuttled around for years, and it's a ripe opportunity that God has in front of us. I hope people will consider it. Katie: I agree. What a tangible way to get involved, right where you are, in your own community. It's certainly as much of a need, here, in the States as it is in Uganda.  14:00 There are children hurting world-over, and so that's one of the things that I really always hope to encourage people in—that you don't have to move to Uganda / you don't have to move anywhere—there are people in need right in front of you.  Barbara: Exactly; right; but you do need to open your heart. Katie: Yes. Barbara: And that, I think, is what most people are afraid of—is opening their heart—because they know that there might be some pain involved. We're so pain-adverse and we're so addicted to comfort that it keeps us from opening our hearts and then, consequently, experiencing God in a way that we wouldn't have otherwise. Dennis: Katie, I've said, for years, that: “When you go near the orphan, you go near the heart of God.” Katie: Yes. Dennis: How have you experienced that personally?—because you've adopted 13 Ugandan young ladies. Katie: Well, what better way to clearly understand God's heart for us than to bring a child, who is not biologically related to you, into your home and call them your own and believe that they're your own?  15:00 I now have adopted children and a biological child. I can say, with certainty, that my love for them is the same.  Because I know that to be true, I can believe God when He says that, through Jesus Christ, I am adopted as His son or daughter, just as Christ is His Son. I mean, really, it's unfathomable; isn't it?—but I believe it's such a clear picture. I desire the world for my adopted daughters, and I believe that that's God's heart towards us—this Father heart—and I don't think I would be able to so clearly understand it had I not experienced the love that I have for my children. Bob: Katie, you've been in Uganda for a decade. Katie: Yes. Bob: You left Nashville to go there as somebody who knew and loved Jesus.  16:00 How is your understanding of what the gospel is different, today, than it was when you got on the plane and said, “I'm going to Uganda”? Katie: It's very different. I think my faith, when I set out—as an 18-year-old, with my suitcase full of construction paper, and crayons, and my heart that was going to change the world for the gospel of Christ—you know, I think my faith was a bit naïve. Definitely— Dennis: You think?—at 18? [Laughter] Katie: Yes. Dennis: I just want to make sure our listeners heard what you just said. Katie: I'm quite sure. [Laughter] Bob: A bit—a bit naïve. Dennis: A bit! I mean, your parents had to let you go, for goodness sakes, at the age of 18, to Uganda. Katie: They did; yes.  Dennis: They had to wonder if you were a bit off at that point; right? Katie: Right! Yes; I think I was very optimistic as well. I think I saw God's goodness to be when things turned out well, or when my prayers were answered, or when things were going my way—then I would say, “Oh, see, God blessed us.”  17:00 And I really—I mean, I do believe that the greatest gift God gives us is Himself / salvation and eternal life with Him—that's what He wants to give us. There's no material thing / there's no earthly blessing—it's Him. I have seen that God has given me more and more of Himself even in the midst of unimaginable hardship. Bob: When you share the gospel today with people in Uganda, how is it different than when you shared the gospel a decade ago? Katie: I mean, I think I definitely am more quick to present the fact that belief in Jesus does not mean that things are going to go well; and belief in Jesus does not mean that your garden is going to grow or that you're not going to live in a dirt house anymore; but belief in Jesus means that you will have someone with you through those circumstances and that those circumstances will just be so temporary in light of eternity. 18:00 There is nothing here that we're putting our hope in. Belief in the gospel doesn't really mean that we have hope in this world now; it means that we have hope for eternity spent with God. Dennis: And in the midst of life, you're going to have these messes that you're talking about—that hurt / that disappoint—because people will disappoint you. Katie: Yes. Dennis: But what you're saying and what you're reminding us of is that God shows up and He desires to be our refuge.  One of the things I found, as I was reading your book, was you were really counseling your own soul. As you stood there in your kitchen—peeling mounds of potatoes, cleaning dishes, cleaning up after the girls—but you were counseling your soul with the Psalms / with the Scripture so that you were responding the way God wanted you to respond, realizing He was there with you. Katie: I love the Psalms because they're so honest.  19:00 I think we're, sometimes, conditioned to think that we can't come to God and tell Him, “I feel so disappointed,” or “I feel so angry”; right? We think we're only supposed to say, “Okay; I'm upset with God, but let me find something that I can thank Him for or something good”; but we see in the Psalms the psalmist cries out to God. He tells Him how he feels.  When I approached God in that way, I felt that God did not become angry with me back. You know, maybe when you approach a human with anger, you expect they're going to yell back at you; right? But God didn't feel angry. He understood what I felt / He already knew that I felt that way, and He was able to comfort me all the more when I was honest with Him.  Dennis: Well, as I was reading your book, I was reflecting back on a psalm—Psalm 43—especially one verse that has been meaningful to me recently. Maybe it will be meaningful to a listener or two.  20:00 It reads, “Why are you cast down, O my soul, and why are you in turmoil within me?” That's honesty, right there—that's admitting where you are. It goes on to say, “Hope in God, for I shall again praise Him, my salvation and my God.” God desires to be our refuge. Sometimes, He has to knock the props out from under us, where we're looking for encouragement / where we're looking, as you talk about, Katie, in your book, Daring to Hope, where we're hoping for a good ending to the story, and we don't get that good ending. What God's doing is—He's driving us to Himself. So, if you want to counsel your soul, take a look at all five verses of chapter 43 of the Psalms. 21:00 Bob: And I think for folks to read Katie's book and be reminded of the things she has learned, caring for adopting kids, living in Uganda—I think there's a lot of encouragement / a lot of hope in this book. The book is called Daring to Hope: Finding God's Goodness in the Broken and the Beautiful. We have copies of the book in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can order from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, our website—FamilyLifeToday.com—the phone number: 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” I was with one of our listeners, recently, who said, “I know when FamilyLife Today went on the air.” He said, “It was 25 years ago; and the reason I know that is because that's when we started having children, right about the same time that FamilyLife Today began as a radio broadcast.” And he said, “All along the journey, I have leaned into you guys for counsel, for wisdom, for help, for advice on how we can raise our kids.”  22:00 And he smiled and he said, “And you know, they've turned out okay.” As you know, Dennis, there's no guarantee that kids turn out okay, even when Mom and Dad do the best they know how to do; but it is encouraging to hear from moms and dads / from husbands and wives who tell us, repeatedly, that this program has made a difference in their understanding of marriage and family and in how they're living it out. I wish those of you who support FamilyLife Today—both as Legacy Partners and those of you who will give an occasional donation to support this ministry—I wish you could hear some of these testimonies that we get a chance to hear. These are the people you're supporting when you support this broadcast. You're helping to turn around legacies / you're helping to point families in new directions, and we're grateful for your partnership with us. 23:00 Here, at yearend, we have a unique opportunity for your giving to go farther. Our friend, Michelle Hill, is here again today with an update on FamilyLife's matching-gift fund. Hi, Michelle! Michelle: Hi Bob, yes I reported yesterday how the fund might be doubling? Well the matching fund is 4.3 million dollars! …which is fantastic! But what has to happen next is up to our listeners, because without you, that 4.3 million dollar figure is just a number.  So…please pray about your part in fulfilling the match… ‘cause right now we're at seven hundred twenty nine thousand dollars, and that's quite a gap to fill in just a couple of weeks… so please keep praying, keep giving and to God be the glory!    Bob: And we've tried to make it as easy as possible for you to make a yearend contribution to FamilyLife Today. You can do it, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate.  24:00 Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. Now, tomorrow, we want to find out how Katie Davis became Katie Davis Majors and hear about the young man who pursued her in Uganda and ultimately got her to say, “Yes,” to his proposal. I hope you can tune in for that story. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

Daring to Hope (Part 1) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 2) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 3) - Katie Davis MajorsFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Serving the Hurting Guest:                         Katie Davis Majors               From the series:       Daring to Hope (Day 3 of 3)  Bob: As a single mother, a parent to 13 adopted children, Katie Davis Majors was surprised when a young man, also living in Uganda, began pursuing her.  Katie: He asked me out twice; and it was in the middle of, I think, just a hard season for me personally. Both times I said, “No”; and the second time, I really said like, firmly, “No”—like, “Hey,”— Barbara: “Don't ask again now.”   Katie: —“I hope we can still be friends; but if we can't, it's okay. We can't—we can't do that. No. No; thank you.”   Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, December 20th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. How Katie Majors went from a firm “No,” to becoming Mrs. Benji Majors—we'll hear that story today. Stay with us.  1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I want to meet Benji Majors sometime; don't you?   Dennis: I do!   Bob: I mean, I just want to meet the guy who was persistent and met a determined young woman and was determined to win her.  Dennis: I want to hear the story of whether or not he went to Uganda in search of Katie Davis, author of Kisses from Katie. [Laughter]  Bob: I'm just curious about Benji. You told us earlier that there was a guy who was living out in the house behind your house. You called Benji and said, “Would you want to come disciple him?”  Benji said, “Sure.”  I'm thinking: “Yes; Benji wanted to take you out. I would have come and discipled him and say, ‘I'll be there every day to disciple him if it gets me a little closer to you.'”  Do you think that was in the back of his mind?   Katie: At that point, no; I don't think so. [Laughter]   Dennis: Are you sure though?   Katie: No!  [Laughter]   Barbara: Yes; that was a hesitant yes. So, yes; I think that's right.  2:00   Dennis: Well, Katie is the author of a new book, Daring to Hope. She is now married. She is a mom of 14—13 of whom—a baker's dozen of Ugandan little girls, who are becoming, even against Katie's will, young ladies. They are growing up— Katie: Yes. Isn't that true?   Dennis: —growing up on her here.  I want to ask you my favorite question, but I'm going to ask you to wait to answer it— Katie: Okay.  Dennis: —until the end of the broadcast. Here is my question: “What's the most courageous thing you've ever done in all of your life?”  Now, don't answer right now—I'm going to give you a moment to think about it—but courage is doing your duty in the face of fear.  I've got a sneaking suspicion, because of your book, Daring to Hope, that you've got a definition or two that comes from your book that you'd share with our listeners; but to get there, what I want to first have you do is tell us about the woman who had five children, who was dying of TB and HIV, who came to you.  3:00 Her name was Katherine. Tell our listeners that story of how you cared for her.  Katie: Katherine came to live with us when she became very ill. Her five children, under the age of ten, were sponsored by Amazima; so we were paying for their school.  Dennis: Okay; let's just stop here. Amazima is an organization you run in Uganda.  Katie: Yes. We—our goal is really to disciple families and to empower the families to stay together. About 80 percent of children in institutions in East Africa actually have one living parent; and they end up institutionalized just due to financial poverty. Their parents cannot afford to pay for them to go to school, or to pay for their medical care, or to pay for their food; so they send them to these institutions.  That was something that was very shocking to me the first year that I lived in Uganda, and I really desired to try to change the system.  4:00 Through financial sponsorship of school fees, and some food, and some basic medical provision, Amazima works to keep these children with their biological family members; but of course, the heartbeat of our organization is really that, in doing that, we would form a relationship with these families and lead them to Christ.  Dennis: Katherine was one of those moms who had experienced the care of your organization.  Katie: Yes; so we were in relationship with her and had known her for a few years through her children; and she just got sicker and sicker to the point where she wasn't really able to take care of her children very well. She moved over to our house so that I could help her out with her children and, also, because our house is very close to the local hospital, and she needed a little more immediate access to medical care. We were just down the street from the doctor she was seeing.  They lived with us for several months. I truly, really, believed that God was going to heal her of her illness—that she would become healthy and strong again.  5:00 I had imagined it in my head—the happy ending, where she would move out with her children.  We always throw a bit of a celebration for people who have lived with us for a season and get to move out on their own again. We've had many families, especially struggling single mothers, live with us over the years. We always have a big celebration when they become well, or they finally find a job, or their child is finally healthy enough, and they can move out. I really thought that that would be the case with Katherine and her family as well; and she did get better for some time, but then she began to deteriorate very quickly.  Dennis: She passed away.  Katie: She did.  Dennis: You compared your experience to the prophet Habakkuk and how he had to deal with some disappointments as well. You learned through that disappointment that there isn't always a happy ending to the story—but in this case, there was a happy ending to the story because— Katie: Right.  6:00 Dennis: —she went to heaven.  Katie: Yes; absolutely. That's what Habakkuk says—right?—that though the olive crop fails, though the leaves wither, though there are no sheep in the pen—basically, even if I can't see it, still I will hope / still I will rejoice in God my Savior. I felt like that was something God was teaching me in a season where I had really thought we would see it—we would see a happy ending where she stayed alive. God showed me—still I can rejoice, even though things didn't go my way.  Barbara: I remember discovering that verse when our children were teenagers. They were starting to kind of press the limits a little bit and push back on us. I discovered that verse, and I thought, “This is a perfect verse for a mother— Katie: Yes.  Barbara: —“of children of all ages; but especially, teenagers.”  I think the oldest was only 15 at the time; but I remember, when I read that, I just hung on to that because I thought: “Lord, there is no guarantee— 7:00 Katie: Yes.  Barbara: —“that all the best parenting, all the prayer—none of that guarantees that my children will choose You, they will choose to live a good life, they will be responsible / they'll be productive. They're no guarantees. It could all fail. It could all be gone. Will I trust You if You do that?”  It was a real turning point in my life; because I said, “Okay; God, I will. I will choose to believe You even if none of my children flourish / there is no green on the vine.”    Katie: And isn't that the hardest part of parenting— Barbara: Absolutely.  Katie: —is just that moment when you realize, “Even if I do everything perfectly,”—which I'm not— Barbara: Which we're not—none of us do.  Katie: —“but even if I did,— Barbara: Yes.  Katie: —“there is no guarantee— Barbara: None.  Dennis: No.  Katie: —“there is going to be any fruit here. There's no guarantee that these—that they are going to choose Christ in their own lives, and they have to choose it for themselves.”  That's the scariest part of it for sure!   Barbara: Yes; exactly, because it's not something that we can do for them.  Katie: No.  8:00 Bob: Bryan Loritts, who is a pastor in Northern California, who is a part of The Art of Parenting video series that's coming out before long, makes the observation: “God is a perfect Father. God has rebellious children.”   Barbara: Yes; lots of rebellious children. [Laughter]  Katie: Yes.  Bob: So, think about that—here's a perfect Father with rebel kids. Why should we think that we, as imperfect parents, will be spared a little rebellion in our home?—right?   Katie: Right.  Dennis: No doubt about it. Just as Barbara was talking about, we have learned a bunch about God's love for us as we have loved our kids and watched them struggle in their faith, from time to time.  Katie, I know from reading your book that you have learned a lot about the love of God through the 14 children that you have.  Katie: Oh, absolutely; because even—you know, as a parent, you see so clearly that, even when you are disciplining your children, it's not out of this place of anger toward them or hatred toward them— 9:00 —it's out of such this place of love and a desire for good things to come in their lives.  I think I've understood so much more that—when God disciplines me in my own life, when God tells me to go in a direction that I don't really feel like I want to go, or when God even brings me through a difficult time—it is His love that does that to shape me, to change me, to teach me; because He wants good things for me. I think, as parents, when we feel that love for our children, we can see it so much more clearly from God's vantage point.  Dennis: Yes; I really agree.  Katie, before we get too far away from the story of Katherine, who died, and her five children—what happened to those five?  Did you adopt them?   Katie: I didn't. They did stay with us for a little while, immediately following her death.  10:00 Then, we placed them with a biological aunt, who they lived with for some time; but that situation was never really good. The aunt was very young, and she was also struggling. She didn't have any biological children, so she had never parented before; and the children were really suffering there with her. We would provide food, and we would drive out there to visit them; but it just never seemed to be a good situation.  I was just getting desperate, just praying, asking the Lord what I should do. I mean, the idea of having five more children come to my house was a lot. At the same time, I was not clearly seeing another option. They were a sibling set of five—like there aren't many families that are willing to take that on, even in the foster care system.  I had gone to visit my friend, Rose. Before I started talking, she said, “You know, my daughter Helen”—who had been a good friend of my daughters and was in and out of our house a lot—she said:  11:00 “My daughter told me about what happened to the mom of those kids. I'm so sorry. God's just put it on my heart to really pray for them; but also, just to ask you: ‘Is there anything they need?—even, maybe, do they need a place to go?'”   Of course, I like start to weep and just said: “Oh, I can't even tell you—that has been on my heart all week. I've been praying.”  I was even just telling a good friend of mine earlier that same day—like, “I do not know what we're going to do for these children, but I feel like—I told their mom, before she died, that I would make sure they were okay. It feels like a lot of responsibility.”   Rose and I talked for several more hours that day about what it would mean for her to start fostering them. About a month later, we went through all the paperwork process; and social workers visited with both families.  12:00 About a month later, we are able to help move Katherine's five children into Rose's home.  Barbara: Wow.  Dennis: You know, I just marvel at your acts of courage to care for Katherine as she died, to care for her children after she died, and also your courage in developing a relationship with a young man called Benji.  Bob: Yes; you talked about how unusual it is for somebody to take five kids in as foster kids. [Laughter]   Katie: That is a little ironic; isn't it?   Barbara: Yes; it is.  Bob: How unusual is it for a young man to say, “I'm going to be the husband to a mom of 13?!”   Katie: Yes; it's not usual.  Barbara: It's not normal.  Dennis: So, he asked you out twice before you said, “Yes.”   Katie: He did. He asked me out a couple of times; and both times, I said, “No.”  The second time, I really said, like firmly, “No,”—like, “Hey,— Barbara: Like “Don't-ask-again” no?   13:00  Katie: —“I hope we can still be friends; but if we can't, it's okay.”  [Laughter] Dennis: It was a “Dear John.”   Katie: “We can't do that. I'm—no. No; thank you.”   So, then, really, after that, I think I got to watch his heart on display a lot more; because I trusted that he wasn't going to ask me again. He was very respectful in that—he didn't really come over as much after that. He was still discipling the man that lived in the back of our yard, but he would come—he would go straight to Mack. He would spend his time with him, and he would leave. He would not come say, “Hello,” to me / he would not try to make conversation. I mean, I felt very respected in that—that he didn't. He heard what I said, and he didn't push the boundaries.  I got to watch him and his heart for people, and for service, and truly for the gospel through that. He was also attending this large Bible study that we all went to on Wednesday nights.  14:00 He often led worship or even led the teaching at that Bible study. I was just—I was so attracted to his heart for the Lord. I was telling my good friend, like: “Oh my gosh. I think I like him; but now, I can't tell him; because he's never going to ask—he's not going to ask me out again. There is no hope.”  So, I did—I had to call him and ask him if he would come over for coffee; and he said, “No.” [Laughter]  Barbara: He didn't want to risk it again; huh?   Katie: Well, yes!  I mean, I had said so— Barbara: Yes.  Katie: —clearly that I didn't want to date him. What was he going to be doing having coffee with me?  Why would you have coffee with a young, single female that wasn't going to date you?  [Laughter]  So, I had to beg and plead a little bit, you know: “Please, I need to talk to you about something important. Can you come?  Can we just—can we just have a cup of coffee?”  So, he finally said, “Yes.”   Dennis: Oh no!  You've got to say— Barbara: And he said?   Dennis: Yes?—what happened over the cup of coffee?   Katie: Well, then, I was so nervous.  15:00 I made like dumb small talk the whole time; right?  So, after about an hour, he's looking at his watch; and he's like— Barbara: “Okay?”   Katie: —“Okay; well, this was nice. I think I'm going to go.”  So, then, I just kind of blurted out some words that probably didn't even make sense—like: “You know, I was thinking / I was wondering if, maybe—do you want to like—we could spend more time together, you know, intentionally; you know?”   Barbara: Real coherent; right?   Katie: Right; exactly. He's just kind of looking at me; and finally, he said, “Like—like dating?”  I said, “Well, yes.”  He said, “Okay; I'm going to pray about that,” and he left!  [Laughter]   Dennis: He didn't go for the bait!   Katie: What I didn't know, at the time—which is amazingly the Lord's provision and just further confirmation that we both really were trying to seek after Him— 16:00 —was that he had been in conversation, earlier that week, with some of his supporters in the States about whether or not his time in Uganda was coming to a close. He felt like he had pretty effectively discipled these 30 men. They were all kind of going out into the world and starting churches and discipling other young men. He felt like: “Okay; I could kind of take under my wing another group,” or “I could just keep in touch with this group via Skype and internet. Maybe, my time here is coming to a close.”   He had been in conversation with people about whether or not he was moving back when he got my phone call asking him to come to coffee. What I didn't know, when he said he needed to pray about this, was this was a much bigger decision than “Am I going to date this girl?”  This was a decision for him of: “Is there more of life for me in Uganda right now?”   17:00 Dennis: And so, how long did you date?   Katie: Probably, almost a year from that point until we got engaged; and then, we were engaged for about eight months.  Dennis: Time out. How did he propose?   Katie: It was so sweet. He actually—he's such a good dad—he took all the girls out for ice cream earlier in the week. He just said to me like—and he would do this sometimes—he would say: “I'm going to take the girls out to eat,” or “I'm going to take them down to the river to play for a little bit so that you can get some quiet.” He had taken the girls out for ice cream and took them over to his house, actually, and sat them all down and said: “I would like to propose to your mom. What do you think about that?”  They all gave feedback; and then, he let them help him plan how he would propose to me.  Dennis: Wow.  Barbara: That's so sweet!   Katie: He showed them the ring, and he let them— Barbara: So sweet.  Katie: —he let it be a family affair, which I just loved that he knew my heart well enough to know that I would have felt like something was missing if they hadn't been a part of that.  18:00 Actually, our best friends came to babysit the girls; and he took me back over to his place. There was a picnic laid out—his yard is kind of right on the edge of the lake that we live nearby—and he proposed. Then, as soon as I said, “Yes,” all our girls came running out of the bushes. They had watched the whole thing.  Barbara: Oh how sweet!  Oh, I love it.  Katie: They were so excited, and they had picked flowers. They were throwing them on us—it was so sweet.  Barbara: So, did anybody capture any photos of that—I hope?   Katie: No.  Barbara: I'm just thinking, “Oh, I wish I could have seen that.”  It just sounds delightful.  Dennis: Great video.  Katie: I know!   Barbara: Even just a few still photographs.  Katie: It was so dark, but it's like seared in my memory forever!     Barbara: I'm sure it is; yes.  Dennis: So, back to my original question, at the beginning of the broadcast: “Katie Davis Majors, what's the most courageous thing you've ever done in all your life?”   19:00 Katie: That is a hard question, but I think—I think the most courageous thing that I have ever done is to trust God when I can't see what He's doing. I don't think that's a courage that has come from me. I think that God, Himself, has allowed me the grace to continue to trust Him.  I think that that's the most courageous thing that any of us can do—is to continue to put our hope and our trust in God, even when we don't really feel like it. He has shown me that that hope does not disappoint me because, even when I don't get what I want, I get more of Him—I get to know Him more / I get to know sides of Him that I wouldn't have known if I hadn't scooted up next to Him like that.  Bob: So, you're saying, even if the olive tree is barren— Katie: Yes!   Bob: —and the leaves are withering— 20:00 —to say, “I'm still going to trust Him.”  That's where real courage comes from.  Katie: I think that that is real courage.  Dennis: As you were talking, I couldn't help but think of this passage in Romans, Chapter 5.  Katie: I love this one.  Dennis: “More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces—  Katie: —“hope.”   Dennis: —“hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.”   Katie: Yes!   Dennis: God in you—changing you.  Katie: Yes.  Dennis: Great answer to the question.  Katie: Thanks.  Bob: Well, and there is a lot of courage that shows up in the book that you've written called Daring to Hope. It's a book that tells the story of how God has been with you in the midst of suffering / how you've seen His goodness in the brokenness of where you live and work.  21:00 I would encourage our listeners: Get a copy of Katie's book, Daring to Hope. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order at 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”   You know, one of the things that, Dennis, both you and I love to hear are stories of redemption—people whose lives were broken / headed in the wrong direction—they were in the ditch, as you like to say—and God intervenes and turns them in a new direction and points them in a new direction—turns their whole life around. Recently, we got a chance to meet with a number of listeners, who said FamilyLife Today was a part of their redemption story.   22:00 Some of the stories we heard were just remarkable.  I was sitting there, thinking, “I wish our Legacy Partners / I wish the folks who help support this ministry could be here with us, hearing these stories, because that's what you're giving to when you support the ministry of FamilyLife Today.”  You're helping us reach more people more regularly with practical biblical help and hope.  And here, as 2017 is drawing to a close, I know some of you are thinking about possible yearend donations to ministries like ours. There is a special opportunity for you to give over the next couple of weeks—it's a matching-gift fund that's been established for this ministry. Michelle Hill is here with details on how we're doing with that matching-gift fund. Hi, Michelle!   23:00 Michelle: Hey Bob…well by now many folks have heard that the match fund has more than doubled (it's now 4.3 million dollars) but the real important number is one, as in that one person listening right now and deciding to give…and maybe you're that one? J   I mean really Bob, the match isgoing to be met one gift at a time…and so far over five thousand people have made that decision. So, thanks to each one…like Don from Canton, Ohio? Today we're at NINE HUNDRED SEVENTY ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS...which is great! BUT…if we're going to take full advantage of the match, we'll need a lot of other ones to pray and then give as God leads. Bob: Well, and if you'd like to be a part of helping us take full advantage of the matching gift, you can make a donation today, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to donate—1-800-358-6329 is the number—1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY”; or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223.  24:00 And if you haven't sent us a Christmas card yet, send a Christmas card and just tuck something inside; okay?   And I hope you can join us back again tomorrow when we're going to hear a conversation we had, not long ago, with our friends, Don and Sally Meredith. This is a remarkable couple who God used in a significant way to help birth the ministry of FamilyLife all the way back in 1976. I hope you can tune in and meet our friends, Don and Sally Meredith.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

Lessons From a Father That Was Always There (Part 1) - Crawford LorittsLessons From a Father That Was Always There (Part 2) - Crawford LorittsFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Modeling Integrity Guest:                         Crawford Loritts                    From the series:       Lessons from a Father Who Was Always There (Day 1 of 2)  Bob: Dr. Crawford Loritts is profoundly aware of how his life was marked and shaped by a father who was there.  Crawford: My dad used to say to me as I was growing up—and particularly as I was facing difficult times and, maybe, I didn't want to follow through on something; and I said I was going to do something—boy, he would pull me aside and say: “Son, all you have at the end of the day is what you say. That's all you have. That's all you have, and you better be good by what comes out of your mouth—integrity. If you say you are this, then it needs to be reflected in how you act.”  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, March 12th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. A lot of what Crawford Loritts understood about parenting came from watching a father who did the job well. We'll hear more from him today. Stay with us.  1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. You know, we've often said that behind every great man, there's a great woman or that we stand on the shoulders of others. I don't know how often it's been reflected on that behind great men and women are often faithful moms and dads, who did their job well and created a foundation for their sons and daughters to grow up in where those sons and daughters thrived.  Dennis: You know, as you talk about that, I can't help but think about our guest on the program today, who gave a message at the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission's Parenting Conference, back last August. I sat in the audience as I listened to my friend, Crawford Loritts, speak about his heritage that Crawford was given by his great grandfather, Peter, whom he described as a praying, singing slave. 2:00 Bob: Yes.  Dennis: And he passed on a living faith that, now, resides in Crawford's life and in, also, Crawford's four children; and I think, soon, his ten grandchildren as well.  Bob: Yes; Crawford is a friend of ours. He and his wife Karen have spoken at Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways for years. Crawford is also the pastor at Fellowship Bible Church in Roswell, Georgia, suburban Atlanta. He's spoken around the world on a variety of issues, including marriage and family. His message, at the parenting conference you were attending, was a riveting message. In fact, we thought, “This is one our listeners need to hear.” So, today, we're going to hear Part One of Crawford Loritts talking about lessons he learned on integrity from a father who lived it.  3:00 [Recorded Message]  Crawford: About 20 years ago, I wrote a book entitled Never Walk Away: Lessons on Integrity from a Father Who Lived It; obviously, it was about my dad's incredible impact on my heart and life. In fact, next to Jesus Christ, my father has had the most important, strategic, wonderful influence on my life. Who I am today—so much of what I think, and how I feel, and how I act, and, particularly, my approach to my marriage and our family—has Pop's signature all over me.  You know, Dan Fogelberg wrote a song a number of years ago—a ballad. Part of the refrain of that song goes something like this: “The leader of the band is tired; his eyes are growing cold. His blood is in my instrument, and his song is my soul. My life is just a poor attempt to imitate the man.  4:00 “I'm just the living legacy to leader of the band.”  My father was a grandson of a slave. He was born in 1914—February 13, 1914. He was the youngest boy of 14 children. So, his grandfather Peter / my great grandfather was a slave. Peter, they say—my dad remembers him: “Peter lived to be an old man. Peter was a singing and praying man,” he said. Some of my father's most vivid memories were seeing his grandfather rock back and forth on the old homestead there in Catawba County, North Carolina, a place called Newton Conover, where he would just sing and pray.  Peter was an illiterate man—couldn't read / couldn't write—but he loved Jesus, and—get this—he passionately loved the Word of God. The story is told / the legend is—he would have his children and grandchildren read him familiar passages of Scripture over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again.  5:00 The old boy had committed a lot of that to memory.  Here's what I want you to catch. Despite the fact that Peter was a slave—and let's not glorify slavery—families were intentionally broken up. When young boys reached about 14/15/16 years of age, they bought a high price—they were studded out, so to speak. It was not our most bright and shining moment—it created a whole lot of damnable things that we are still dealing with in our culture today.  But despite all of that, I don't know what happened to Peter. Peter developed a passion and a love for God and a love for his family. Because of his commitment to Jesus Christ and his commitment to his family, he forged generations of strong men, strong male leadership, and strong families.  6:00 I stand here just humbled—I don't take credit for any of this. I don't know why I was born and raised in a household, where my dad showed up, and where he loved the Lord, and he loved his family, and he left his signature over us. Why wasn't I born in a situation where he wasn't there? Why wasn't I born with huge deficits in my heart and life?  And what I want to say today, and underscore before us, is that we—one of my great concerns where evangelicalism is going today is that—somehow or another, in our desire to become intellectually palatable, and acceptable in the marketplace of life, and to broker influences in the corridors of power, and to not be looked at as dumb and stupid Christians—part of my concern is that we are wandering away from the spiritual core of who we really are and the power that's necessary and needed.  7:00 Don't ever underestimate the gospel, and don't ever underestimate the power of the Spirit of God, and don't ever underestimate the power of prayer to change your life and future generations—that is to be the centerpiece of parenting. It's not the quid pro quo, or the various strategies and coping mechanisms—although they might be important—and the tips that we get in the books that we read, and the blogs that we read, and podcasts, and that kind of thing—absolutely wonderful. At the end of the day, the thing that is going to shape your future—shape your family / help your child to make it home before dark, spiritually—is a few callouses on your knees, with an open Bible, and a walk before God. That must never be forsaken. That has got to be the centerpiece of what we're really, really all about.  Pop always showed up. He wasn't perfect, but he was a man of impeccable integrity—impeccable integrity.  8:00 My father—this is not Pollyanna-ish / I'm not revisiting history—but my dad never made a promise to me or my sisters that he did not keep. Now, he may have said, “Son, I will be at your ballgame,”—and he discovered he had to work and had to work something else out—but on balance, he never made a promise that he didn't keep. His word was his bond.  He was a little bit paranoid about showing up. In fact, I couldn't even quit a part-time job that I had as a teenager—I better have a good excuse for that—because he said, “If you told that man you're going to show up, you show up.” And we've kind of raised our kids the same way, especially our boys. When they were playing sports—my rule around the household: “If you play, you stay. You don't quit because it's hard. You don't quit because it's difficult. You don't quit because there is a little bit of opposition. You don't quit because you don't like this situation. You show up. You finish the endurance ride.”  The essence of parenting is to be a portrait of the desired destination.  9:00 The essence of parenting is not necessarily great insights and tools. The truth of the matter is that the power and the authority that we have to shape the next generation is lodged in what we model and what they see in front of us and not necessarily what we say.  In fact, that is what the Bible is all about—the Bible is into prophetic leadership; that is, if you are going to lead anything in the Scripture—and this is the reason why character is so terribly important—if you are going to lead anything in the Scripture, it's not about your ability to plan, and to have insights, and to line things up, and to recruit, and to develop the resources, and to think outside the box—and all of these things that we celebrate today—but if you are going to lead anything in the Bible—anything that has God's name over it / anything that stewards what God wants to do from one generation to the next—then you have to embrace the reality that you've got to be the portrait of the desired destination.  10:00 There's no other way!  Whatever I want my children to be, they have to see it in me. They have to see me aggressively moving toward that because they were born—they were born to be drawn toward what they see—what they see.  Now, my daddy—he didn't have a college degree / he was a salt-of-the-earth kind of person—but his understanding of the Word of God, and his understanding of what it took to be the leader in his household, and what he saw from his father Milton / my grandfather and his great grandfather Peter, he passed on. He realized, if he didn't want his children to lie, he better not be telling a bunch of lies. He understood, if he wanted his children to be people who would stand up and look people in the eye and tell the truth and follow through on their commitments, then he had better do the same. If he wanted kids that would love their wives and husbands— 11:00 —and put them first in their lives—then he better not dog out my mother and put her down or disrespect her. If he wanted us kids to go to church, then he needed to make sure that he was there, leading the way—integrity, integrity, integrity. Integrity is a state of being whole / undivided moral predictability—behavior and choices that reflect your core beliefs and convictions. That's what integrity is really all about.  My dad used to say to me, as I was growing up—and particularly as I was facing difficult times and, maybe, I didn't want to follow through on something; and I said I was going to do something—boy, he would pull me aside and say: “Son, all you have at the end of the day is what you say. That's all you have. That's all you have, and you better be good by what comes out of your mouth—integrity. If you say you are this, then it needs to be reflected in how you act.”  12:00 Parenting is all about preparing a generation for a time that you cannot see, and that's the driving force behind all of us. One of the great benefits of suffering and one of the great benefits of Jim Crow—interestingly enough, in the sovereignty of God, is they didn't have a lot of margin / they didn't have a lot of filler / they didn't have a lot of applause from the broader community. My great grandfather, my grandfather, my dad, and my uncles—who grew up during Jim Crow—they realized that all they had was one another, and all they had was home. They were passionate about things becoming better, and they had a vision for you doing more than what they were able to do.  Parenting takes a look at where things ought to be, and where that child could be, and leverages the moment in history to get them there— 13:00 —that's what parenting is all about. Your child is just passing through, and our job is to point them toward God and point them toward the door—that's what our responsibility is. Thank you, Jesus! [Laughter]  When my father was dying, back in 1995—he had congestive heart failure—and the last three years of his life [were] very difficult for me, because here's a man who worked hard his whole life. My father worked—he usually was working more than one job and took care of his family. His great joy was being able to provide for us. To see him go downhill was just—I mean, it was just gut-wrenching for me—strong, yet he could barely make it.  Well, the end was coming, and he was dying. I'll never forget this—it was a poignant moment. I was standing next to his bedside; and he just looked at me in a moment of lucidity and said, “Boy, I did the best I could.”  14:00 I said, “Pop, you did a great job!” He said, “Son, I want you to take care of your mom and your sisters.” What was he doing?—he was passing a torch / passing a baton—“The race is over.”  My whole life, I've always wanted to be like him—my whole life. I always wanted to think like him—my whole life. I'm in leadership now. I tell people all the time: “You know, my greatest lessons in leadership—sorry, I mean, I should have read your blog [Laughter]; and I didn't read your book—sorry! [Laughter] But my greatest lessons in leadership came from the grandson of a slave, who— 15:00 —“day in and day out, and day in and day out, every day of his life—showed up. When he would blow it and mess up, he'd make it right.”  I'll tell you this quick story before I slide into 1 Kings, Chapter 2, and talk about the handoff; and I'll be done. When I was 12 years old, you know, I was a typical 12-year-old guy. I had a number of brain cramps. [Laughter] On the way to school in the spring, we would walk past this factory that made these chains. I don't know why I did this; but I was with some friends of mine—we would—there were some open boxes, and we stole some chains. It was like chain necklaces and stuff. We stole them and thought we had gotten away with something.  This was the absolute worse day of my life, though, because of what happened. My father used to work nights, but he rotated one evening a week that he was off. He happened to be off that evening, in the providence and sovereignty of God. [Laughter]  16:00 The telephone rang at the house, and it was a policewoman named Mrs. Brown. Yes; I don't want to say some things; this is being recorded. Mrs. Brown—let's just say she was tough. [Laughter] There was this kid by the name of Stanley that looked just like me—believe it or not. I know it's impossible—we could pass for twins. Well, when Mrs. Brown called the house, my mother gave the phone to my dad; and my dad's listening. As she's talking to him, he's looking at me; and I'm saying, “This is not going to end well.” So, she told him—well, Stanley had told Mrs. Brown where to go, where she didn't need an overcoat; okay?—you got that picture? She thought that I told her that. Now, I have to confess, I felt like it on a number of occasions; but I didn't do that—didn't do it.  17:00 Pop hangs up the phone. He looks at me and said, “Boy, have you lost your mind?!” I was talking fast: “Pop, I didn't do that. I didn't disrespect— I didn't do that.”  Right after that—I kid you not—there was a knock on the front door. He opens the door, and there were policemen there. What had happened was that my friends, who had stolen the chains—and I was a part of that group—told on me—they had gotten caught. This was the worst night of my young life.  I won't bore you with all the details of the story, but I will tell you this—at the—we went down to the factory and got the liver scared out of us. Pop dropped a couple of those boys off—they didn't have dads in the home. When we walked into the house, I had not seen my dad cry, except for at funerals of his siblings. I'll never forget this—he looked at me, and a tear began to trickle down his cheeks.  18:00 He said, “Son, you hurt my heart.” Then, he did a few other things to make sure my behavior would line up with the expectations. [Laughter] So “Yes; you weren't hurt that bad.” [Laughter]  That crushed me—it broke me / it broke me. I forgot about the other exclamation mark, but the reason why it broke me is because I always wanted to be like my father; and he would not have done that! He said: “Son, if you want something, you ask me. You don't ever have to steal anything. You hurt my heart.”  [Studio]  Bob: Well, we're going to break in here. We've been listening to the first part of a message from our friend, Crawford Loritts, talking about the important role that his father played in marking his own life.  19:00 I don't know that we, as parents, understand how our example, our model, our words, our actions—they are indelibly imprinting things on the hearts and minds of our children—things that will live with them for decades.  Dennis: And turn them from doing what's wrong— Bob: Yes.  Dennis: —to do what's right. I know we've been talking about the power of a dad, who has integrity; but moms are powerful too, as well, Bob. I just want to encourage moms and dads today to assume your office—the great privilege of being a dad and a mom—to assume it with integrity and to make sure that your words / as much as possible that your words match up with your life. In other words, you do what you say you're going to do—you fulfil your promises.  20:00 I look back on my dad, and my dad didn't need a bunch of lawyers to be tied up to make sure he fulfilled his promises. All you needed from my dad was a handshake, and it was good. If he gave his word, he was going to do it. Bob, I don't know who I would be today if I had not observed a man, who came from a broken home—my dad's father abandoned his eight children back in a time when it wasn't culturally acceptable in anyway whatsoever—yet, my dad was not a victim. My dad earned his living and grew up within three miles of the log cabin where he was born, and he died with a good name.  I can just say to you, as a listener: “One of the greatest gifts you will give your children is that of a good name—a father / a mother, who lived out what he or she believes in front of your children.  21:00 “There's a great need for that as never before.”  Bob: You know, we're about six or seven weeks, now, from releasing a resource that we have been working on for more than a year now that, actually, Crawford's son, Bryan, and his daughter-in-law, Korie, are a part of. It's a video series called FamilyLife's Art of Parenting™, eight sessions that you can go through in a small group; or there is going to be a digital experience of The Art of Parenting, something you can go through as a couple, online. All of this is designed to help moms and dads understand what the biblical priorities for parenting ought to be.  In fact, we're kicking all of this off with a movie that's going to be in theaters for two nights only—May 1st and May 3rd—a movie we've produced called Like Arrows—got help with this from our friends, Alex and Stephen Kendrick. Alex has a role in the film, and it's all designed to raise the issue of parenting.  22:00 We really want to begin a movement of intentional parenting in our culture, and that's what these resources are all about. You can find out more about what's coming when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the parenting link you see there. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com.  Let me also mention—Dr. Crawford Loritts has written a book about his father—a book called Never Walk Away: Lessons on Integrity from a Father Who Lived It. It's a book that we have in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can order the book from us, online, as well, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order: 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”  You know, I mentioned this new emphasis on parenting—one of the things we are working on is a strategy to get this material into the hands and hearts of people who don't listen to FamilyLife Today— 23:00 —folks who may not be actively involved in a local church—but people who would be open to understanding what the Bible teaches about how we raise the next generation. We believe there are a lot of folks like that. We are developing strategies, right now, that will help us get this material into their hands. We've calculated—it's going to take us $10 a home to be able to reach someone with this content and get them engaged with what they're hearing. Of course, they'll have the chance to hear the gospel as we do that.  We'd love to ask you to help support the work that we're doing to help us reach more people with God's design for marriage and family. It's easy enough to do. You can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. When you get in touch with us and make a donation, as a way of saying, “Thank you,” we want to send you seven prayer cards. These are designed so that you, as a parent or grandparent, can be praying more purposefully/more intentionally for your children or your grandchildren.  24:00 They tuck right into your Bible—they are our gift to you when you donate to help us reach more folks with practical biblical help and hope for marriages and families. We look forward to hearing from you, and thanks for your partnership with us.  And we hope you'll join us back tomorrow when we are, again, going to hear from Dr. Crawford Loritts about the priorities of parents. I hope you can tune in.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife® of Little Rock, Arkansas; A Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

Lessons From a Father That Was Always There (Part 1) - Crawford LorittsLessons From a Father That Was Always There (Part 2) - Crawford LorittsFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Most Important Things Guest:                         Crawford Loritts                    From the series:       Lessons from a Father Who Was Always There (Day 2 of 2)  Bob: What's the right balance, as a parent, between protecting your children and letting them experience enough of life that they wind up with a few scars? Here's Dr. Crawford Loritts. Crawford: I understand the need to protect them from the evils, and the sin, and the hellishness that's in our culture; but I have to tell you—protection is not development. I'm terribly concerned about this movement among some of us that wants to hover over our kids—and pull them back and sanitize and sterilize their environments—in such a way that they don't interact with the evil world/a dark world, in which they were born to redeem, and impact, and be salt and light in! Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, March 13th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Where does protection fit into our priorities, as parents; and how much freedom should we give our children? We'll hear from Crawford Loritts on that today. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. When I was in high school, our choir sang a song that was based on the final instructions that King David gave to his son as David was dying and as Solomon was taking over. I don't know if choirs are allowed to sing songs that biblical in our day, but our high school choir sang this when I was growing up. It's stuck with me all these years—David's counsel to his son—from a father, who's dying. He had wise words to share with his son.  In fact, we're going to hear today from Crawford Loritts about how important and how powerful it is for a father to instruct, and coach, and model for his son what really matters. Dennis: Crawford is the pastor at Fellowship Bible Church in Roswell, Georgia.  2:00 He is the father of four children / he's the husband of Karen, and they have ten grandchildren. As you listen to Crawford share this story from the Scriptures, I want you to think about what you're charging your kids with today. Are you challenging them with a high enough standard? Are you challenging them with the right goal? Are you challenging them with an eternal goal? I think, Bob, we need to be putting before our children a biblical standard for how they should live throughout their lives; and I think we ought to allow a story like this, from 1 Kings, Chapter 2, to be like the song that you said you remembered all the way back to your childhood—just that it might stick in our hearts and we carry the burden of realizing we need to shape and direct the next generation. Bob: I think we'll get some good coaching from Crawford, as moms and dads, to know: “What are the important things we should be focusing on as we pass on a legacy to our sons and our daughters?”   3:00 Here's Part Two of a message from Dr. Crawford Loritts on “Lessons on Integrity from a Father Who Lived It.” [Recorded Message] Crawford: In 1 Kings, Chapter 2, verses 1-4, David is dying / David is leaving—the legendary David. As he's dying, he calls his son, Solomon, in to make a grand handoff. David was consciously aware of the fact that legacies are not guaranteed—they are not guaranteed. And yet, Solomon was being tapped as next in line. David was about to go be in the very presence of God. It's almost as if, as you read the text, the emotional context is really compelling. It's as if David is reaching out and grabbing his son, Solomon, by the lapels and pulling him close. [Emotion in voice]  4:00 In these four verses, it's almost as if David is saying: “Son, this is what I've lived for. These are the footprints in the sand, and I need you to embrace what you were born for.” And parenthetically, as we raise our children—from the time they're little somethings / from the time they're tiny—we need to be whispering in their ears that they were born for the glory of God and for the plan and the purposes of God: “This is what you were born for, and everything in your life has to be lined up for your moment in history—that you're just passing through here. You're going to be very dead one day. One day, God's going to say, ‘Give Me back My breath.'  5:00 “What were you born for? What are you living for? What are you doing?”  It's amazing, when people are dying, how essence they are—all the other garbage, and all the other frills, and all the other stuff—it doesn't make any difference anymore. David is dying. As he dies, he charges Solomon with these three things—he charges Solomon to live courageously; he charges Solomon to live obediently; and he charges Solomon to live faithfully. I'll say a few words, and then I'll be done. First of all, he charges Solomon: “I want you to live, Solomon. I want you to live. I want you to live courageously.” Verse 1 says, “When David's time to die drew near, he commanded Solomon his son, saying, ‘I am about to go the way of all the earth.'”  6:00 Now, notice this line: “‘Be strong; show yourself a man,'”—“My time is up; it's coming to a close. The ball is being placed in your hands. Solomon, I am challenging you to press through the challenges and the opportunities of your responsibilities. I need you, Solomon, to step up.” In fact, in the Hebrew, the expression, “show yourself a man,” literally is, “become a man.” I think what David was saying to Solomon was: “Solomon, Solomon, Solomon—I need you to rise up to what you were born for.” Solomon was to become what being the king of Israel required—required.  I could get off into this, but I don't have time to do this. I actually think we coddle this generation a little bit too much— 7:00  —I actually think we soften them a little bit too much. We don't give them what they need. I believe the text doesn't say that perhaps David sensed some weakness in Solomon. Solomon was not like his daddy. David ran for 16 years, hiding out in caves from Saul. David was a tough dude, and David experienced some hard stuff—he didn't silver spoon it. Solomon grew up with a little bit more cotton around him, and a little more cushion around him, and a little more options, and a little more resources—he had stuff to choose from. David probably sensed in him: “Solomon, I—I don't know that you have the grit and the resilience that you need to do what needs to be done. You have to show yourself a man. Show yourself a man,”— 8:00 —conviction versus compliance.  I am concerned about how we are raising some of our kids. I understand the need to protect them from the evils, and the sin, and the hellishness that's in our culture—don't get me wrong—the margins are almost erased right now. I get that / I get that. We pray for our 11 grandkids and what they're going through; I mean, there are just too many opportunities for evil. But I have to tell you—protection is not development. I'm terribly concerned about this movement among some of us that wants to hover over our kids—and pull them back and sanitize and sterilize their environments in such a way—that they don't interact with the evil world/a dark world, in which they were born to redeem, and impact, and be salt and light in! David says: “Solomon; hey buddy, you have to step into some stuff. Live courageously—don't run from the challenges; but run to God to get what you need to face the challenges, Solomon.”  9:00 Secondly, he says, “Solomon, live obediently.” Tender words, here, in verse 3, “And keep the charge of the Lord your God, walking in His ways and keeping His statutes, His commandments, His rules, and His testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses.” When you do exposition, you always have to pay attention to the emotional context. I think this is biographical—I think David was saying to Solomon, in so many words: “Solomon”—it was not just about the Davidic covenant / not just about the promises of David—I think he had that in mind, because the text says so; but I think there's something else going on here. I think David wanted his son to love God's Word the way he did! He wanted him to cherish it the way he did: “Solomon, you need to bring your life in line with the truth of God's Word.  10:00 “You need to live it—not just speak it, not just quote it, not just argue your paradigms and all that stuff about it—but you need to live this stuff. You need to live it. You need to live it. You need to live it. You need to live it.” This is what David was saying to Solomon: “Solomon, listen to me, buddy; you can't do it, man. You can't do it. I need you to cherish this book. If you're going to be successful / if you're going to make it, you're going to have to walk with God; you're going to have to love this book; you're going to have to listen to this book.” David was telling Solomon: “Hey, buddy; don't get cute. Don't get cute. Don't think that because I'm your daddy, you're on the throne, and you've inherited this throne at a very important time—and I'll become a living legend, and this stuff is being passed off to you— 11:00 “—don't think that this is sustainable—that somehow or another, vicariously, my background you can broker and that will make you a good person. You need to walk with this, son—you need to love it.” We need to raise our kids to say: “You don't have to do me proud,” “You don't have to be anything that you think I want you to be,”—take that off the table—“But you do have to obey God.” But then he says, thirdly, “You have to live faithfully.” I suppose, technically, faithfulness is a subset of obedience—that's probably accurate—but I want to parse it out a bit here; because he says, here in verse 4, “…that the Lord may establish His Word that He spoke concerning me, saying, ‘If your sons pay close attention to their way, to walk before Me in faithfulness with all their hearts…'”— 12:00 —what is he saying? David is saying: “Hey look. You know the mess in my life; okay?” David ended well, but he had some major “oops.” I believe he's saying: “You know the mess between me and your mama; okay—it's well-documented. [Laughter] It wasn't cool—you know about Nathan; you know about my brokenness; you know about my repentance. By the grace of God, I've gotten back on the right track, boy; and you have got to be faithful!”  13:00 In other words, “You have to remember where you came from and what's been placed in your hands.” You see, faithfulness means to obey God in the little things. It is a daily commitment to do the right, honorable things, and often the difficult things—often the difficult things. You see, to me, greatness is not notoriety / greatness is not recognition.  You know, I was being interviewed several years ago. Somebody said something / they heard something—and they used the words, “Boy, you're approaching greatness…” or something like that—first of all, they need to get out more; [Laughter] but when they said that, I said: “No, no, no, no; no. Greatness is buried, side by side, in Old Dominion Cemetery in Roanoke, Virginia—Crawford and Sylvia Loritts—because they were faithful/faithful.” 14:00 And David was telling his boy: “Every single day—in the small things / the big things; the things that people don't see, behind closed doors—get after it, Solomon. Get after it.” One of the greatest things you can do—rather than trying to raise your kids to be a great speaker, or a great athlete, or this kind of thing / this kind of thing—teach them how to just be consistent in following through on the noble, right things: “You hurt my heart, son. Why?—because: “Loritts, we don't steal,” / “You show up, boy. I heard you were late for that little job you had. Show up.” 15:00 Some time ago, my oldest son, Bryan, and I—we were speaking at—this was a few years ago—we were speaking at the Billy Graham Center at the Cove in Asheville, North Carolina. While we were there, I said to Bryan: “We have a break in the afternoon.” I said: “You know, do you want to go back down to Conover, North Carolina? It's less than an hour away. That's the old homestead—that's where Peter held forth, and my grandfather, Milton, and where my dad was born.” Bryan was excited, because he hadn't been there since he was a little guy. We went on down I-40 there, and got off at the Newton Conover exit, and snaked over the railroad tracks—I hadn't been there in years—back to Second Street. I was surprised I could find my way over there. As soon as you cross on Second Street, on the right-hand side is a little tiny church called Thomas Chapel AME Zion Church.  16:00 Interestingly enough, my grandfather had given the land for that little church to be built on. Behind the church, there's a cemetery. The cemetery, interestingly enough, was there before the church was there—there's a cemetery. About a half to almost two-thirds of the bodies in that cemetery are related to Lorittses.  As Bryan and I were walking around the cemetery, I was reminding him who some of these people were—you know: “That's Pop's brother, your Great-uncle Ordell,” and “That's Uncle Hayes, right there,” “Here's Uncle Emery,” and “There's Aunt Annie, right there,” “There's your Great-grandfather—my grandfather, Milton / Pop's dad,” and “There's his wife, Anna, right here.”  17:00 As I began to just tell him about these people, I was ambushed by emotion. I began to weep; and I said to Bryan—I said: “Son, these people paid your tuition. They paid your tuition.” I guess the charge I want to make to you today—as you look at your children, and you look at the future and look at a time that you cannot see, and you're making the investments in their lives—you're doing the drudgery, day in and day out—and you're correcting them, and disciplining them, and you're laughing with them, and you're going through the struggles / “Are they ever going to get out of my house?”—or all this stuff that's going on—keep in mind: “You're paying their tuition. What are you investing in them? 18:00 “Will they be able to live courageously? Will they live obediently, and will they live faithfully?” Holy Father, thank You for Your Spirit; thank You for Your power; thank You for Your grace. Thank You for what You mean to us.  Lord, the most intimidating thing we do, as a parent—You've entrusted with us those precious lives that bear the image of our great God. There's a devil out there; there are all kinds of mess. They have their own temptations and issues; but Spirit of the living God, we pray that You'll help us to roll up our sleeves so that we can look each one in the eye, when that moment comes, and say, “By the grace of God, I did the best I could.”  We love You, Lord Jesus.  19:00 Thank You for what You will do. In Jesus' name, Amen. [Studio] Bob: Again, today, we've been listening to the second part of a message from our friend, Crawford Loritts, the pastor at Fellowship Bible Church in Roswell, Georgia—a message that Crawford shared at the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, their conference on parenting that was held, back last fall. It's a timely message; and one that we felt is important for our listeners as we try to live intentionally, as moms and dads, raising the next generation. Dennis: And Bob, as you know, Barbara and I have been working on a book called The Art of Parenting. It's going to be a part of, really, the largest resource launch in FamilyLife®'s 41-year history—that'll occur in May and, also, next summer—where we're going to be setting our sights on equipping one million parents to raise their children to fulfill God's design and blueprints for their lives. 20:00 I just want our listeners to get ready to maybe be a recipient of some of that training or to be a messenger. That's a part of what Crawford was talking about here—you've raised your children, intentionally; but you're also thinking about the next generation: “How can you send a living message to a time that you will not see?” Crawford spoke powerfully about that in his message, Bob, where he's really challenging us to outlive ourselves—live through our children / live through the generation to come—to make an impact upon their culture and the people they influence. Bob: If you missed any part of the message, you can go back and listen, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com. Let me also mention—there's information available there about a new resource that FamilyLife has been working on for more than a year now. It's an eight-session video series called FamilyLife's Art of Parenting™. It's going to be available for small groups; it's also going to be available, online, for moms and dads to go through—just the two of you working through it, if you'd like. 21:00 Crawford's son, Bryan, and his daughter-in-law, Korie, are one of the contributors to FamilyLife's Art of Parenting—so is Alistair Begg, and Kevin DeYoung, and Dr. Meg Meeker—there's a great list of folks who join you and Barbara on this video series. Again, you can get more information / you can watch a preview of The Art of Parenting when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com and find out more about how you can order the material or how you can access it as soon as it's available in early May. We're kicking all of this off with a movie that we've created called Like Arrows. It's a movie that stars Alan Powell and Micah Lynn Hanson. Alex Kendrick has a role, as well; and Alex and Stephen helped us with the production of this film. It's in theaters two nights only, and we're hoping that our FamilyLife Today family—many of you—will make plans to join us on a Tuesday night/Thursday night. Bring your friends / pack the theaters, and come out to see Like Arrows.  22:00 Tickets are on sale now. You can find out more / you can see a trailer for the movie when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. If you have any questions, give us a call at 1-800-358-6329.  Finally, let me mention that we have copies of the book that Crawford Loritts has written, called Never Walk Away: Lessons on Integrity from a Father Who Lived It. It's available in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can order Crawford's book, where he reflects on things he learned from his own father. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. You know, I mentioned this new parenting emphasis for FamilyLife. Our goal is to begin a movement of intentional parenting, not just in the church, but we want to take this content and deliver it to people, who aren't listening to FamilyLife Today / folks who may not be going to church currently.  23:00 We're developing strategies to help us put this content in the hands of people, who are right now far from God and far from the church, but people who are open to hearing what the Bible has to say about parenting. In the process, they'll get a chance to hear the gospel; and who knows how God might use this series in their lives? If you'd like to help us reach more people with this content—we're calculating it's going to take about $10 per home to be able to get this material in the hands of folks, who are far from God and far from the church. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com, and you can make a donation to help support our efforts; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Of course, every donation you give helps advance the mission of FamilyLife. You help us reach more people more regularly with God's design for marriage and family—that's what we're all about here. So, again, you can give, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. When you do, we'll say, “Thank you,” by sending you a set of seven prayer cards designed for moms and dads or for grandparents to be praying more intentionally for your children or your grandchildren.  24:00 The prayer cards are our gift to you when you help support the work. We appreciate your partnership with us in the work we're doing, here, at FamilyLife Today. And we hope you'll join us back tomorrow, when we're going to hear from another man about the impact his father had on his life. Rick Rigsby joins us tomorrow. I hope you can be back with us as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

God is Good (Part 1) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 2) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 3) - John & Donna BishopToday® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Forgetting What Lies Behind  Guest:                        John and Donna BishopFrom the series:       God is So Good  Bob: There are moments that come along unexpectedly – moments where the foundation of our life or our marriage is rattled.  John and Donna Bishop experienced one of those moments 15 years ago. Donna: Everything was just great, we were just having a great time serving the Lord.  Our boys and our families and then, all of a sudden, that night he got sick, and the pain in the back of his head just got severe, and he said, "You're going to have to take me to the hospital," and so I took him to the hospital and … John: When I woke up from meningitis, I did not know her.  I really didn't know anything.  I had a very unusual case of amnesia that I didn't just forget names and people, I forgot everything. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, August 4th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  What happens to a marriage when, all of a sudden, all the memories, all of the past, is gone.  Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Monday edition.  This is going to be a powerful week for our listeners. Dennis: It is.  In fact, Bob, you and I both talked about this interview that our listeners are about to hear.  It's a top five broadcast – you and I have been doing interviews for – well, coming up on 16 years – that's a few people.  I'm kind of looking across at you, and I'm kind of going, "That's a long time." Bob: You're an old-looking guy. Dennis: We're kind of getting to be codgers in here.  But, I'm going to tell you, pull up a chair, get you a cup of coffee or a Coke or a glass of water.  This week you are going to hear an incredible compelling story of the goodness of God and the love of God.  This is another one of those love stories, Bob, that Hollywood just knows very little about.  This is a love story right from the pages of Scripture. Bob: Yes, you're going to meet John and Donna Bishop today.  They were married back in 1974.  John is a pastor and an evangelist.  They live in Rosebud, Arkansas, which is in north central Arkansas. Dennis: It's just near Hopewell, which is a suburb of Heber Springs. Bob: Oh, now folks have got it perfectly in mind.  They know exactly where that … Dennis: They know exactly where that is. Bob: John and Donna have three sons, and, as you are about to find out, their story is a remarkable one. John: All I remember is from 1995 to this day.  I remember nothing before that, so everything about my life that happened beforehand is what I've been told.  And my wife, her name, Donna, but I called her "my Donna."  When I woke up from meningitis, I did not know her.  I didn't know me, my name, I didn't know – I really didn't know anything.  I had a very unusual case of amnesia that I didn't just forget names and people, I forgot everything.  I didn't know how to eat, I'd forgotten how to chew food, and I had to eat baby food, and I don't blame babies being grouchy, if you had to eat that long. Dennis: So, okay, I'm going to stop you right there. John: Okay. Dennis: Since Donna does know what was taking place in your life up to 1995, I'm going to turn to her.  Describe your lives in the 1990s, Donna.  What was John doing and what were you up to? Donna: Okay.  We were pastoring a church there in Heber Springs, and we had a good church.  We enjoyed everything was going great.  We had three sons, and they were growing up. We also worked on our youth camp there, lived on the campgrounds and started the youth camp, and were just – I would say it was a perfect life.  You know, everything was just great, we were just having a great time serving the Lord, our boys, and our families, and then, all of a sudden that night he got sick, and the pain in the back of his head just got severe, and he said, "You're going to have to take me to the hospital."  So I took him to the hospital and … Bob: So it came on in an instant like that.  One night? Donna: No, he had been a little sick, just having headaches and so forth, and then it just started getting severe that night, and we just took him to the hospital. Bob: Were you scared? Donna: In a way, you know, because the pain just kept getting worse, you know, so – but, you know, you always think, "Oh, we can take him to the hospital and they'll be fine," you know, "be home tomorrow." Dennis: Right. Donna: But he was there about five days, six days, and he got to feeling better and, of course, once men start feeling better, they want to get out of that hospital, and so he got out of the hospital and came home, and it was almost one month to the day, he got out of the hospital is really when I believe the damage was done, or that's when something happened that he was sitting in his rocking chair, had his devotions over in a rocking chair, and he just kept sitting there and sitting there, and I thought, "Okay," you know, "let's get on with things," and he just kept sitting there.  And so I went over and shook him, and he couldn't wake up, he couldn't – he was just kind of staring off. And I said, "John, what's the matter John?"  And I was talking to him, and he just couldn't answer me, and then, of course, we took him back to the doctor, and it was just from there on it's been slow go. Bob: Now, the diagnosis was aseptic meningitis? Donna: Yes, sir. Bob: And this response, a month after the initial diagnosis, this is not what usually happens to people who have meningitis, is it? Donna:  No, sir.  You know, I don't know, I'm not a doctor, but I don't know if we didn't give him the medicine long enough or exactly what it is, but I know the Lord has a reason for it, and so – because that was when everything started going down hill, you might say, to us, you know, because he couldn't walk, and we had to help him around, and his eyes were distorted, so he couldn't drive, and he couldn't – well, he didn't know how to read, he forgot how to read. Dennis: And, ultimately, he lost all of his memory prior to 1995? Donna:  Yes, sir.  And I kept thinking, "Okay, now, he'll get it back," so he didn't remember marriage or wedding, and so I get our photo album out, and I said, "Don't you remember" you know, and I'd try to trick him to say, "Okay, now, I know he can remember something," and I just kept trying to go back and – but he just doesn't have anything. Dennis: In 1995, you'd been married how long? Donna: Twenty-four years. Dennis: Twenty-four years, had three children, you were pastoring a church, and you'd started a ranch? Donna: Yes, sir.  It's a youth camp, a church youth camp for boys and girls that come there. Dennis: All right, John, back to you.  How do you develop a relationship with a wife that you don't remember marrying? Bob: Well, you didn't even know what marriage was, did you? John: No, I didn't.  When she began to teach me, she said, "You're John, I, Donna, we're married."  And the way I learned to talk, Bob, in those early days, I'd watch people's lips move.  I wasn't blind then.  I've only been blind about eight months, but I would watch people's lips move and put the sound with it.  I said, "Marry?  Marry?" and she said, "Oh, okay, you forgot that.  That means you belong to me, and I belong to you."  I looked at her, I'd say, "You my Donna?"  She said, "Yes."  That's what I call her ever since – "My Donna." It was so easy to love her.  She loved me so good.  I'd tell people she taught me everything I know – every woman dream come true.  Her husband forget it all and she get to teach him. [laughter] Everything I know is what my wife taught me.  But I tell everybody she taught me reading, writing, and kissing, and my favorite subject kissing, that's my favorite one. Dennis: So that didn't change? John: No, that didn't.  I didn't – I had a hard time finding her lips, but I kissed until I find them, that's what I do. [laughter]  Dennis: Donna, what kind of student was he? Donna: He worked hard, he really did.  He's a pretty good student.  Sometimes when he's done, he's done, you know?  Sometimes he'd tell me, he said, "Remember, I'm the husband." Dennis: Oh, so he did find out what that meant? Donna: Oh, yes, it didn't take him long to have that man thing, I guess. Bob: It's one thing to take your husband to the hospital and maybe he comes home with a physical disability, and now life is going to have to change because he has to use a walker, or he's got to be in a wheelchair, or he's got something physically that's an issue, but to have a husband come home – I had a friend describe your husband's condition by saying, "It's like a computer that had the hard disk completely erased.  There is no data left there."  To have that be the situation and to be a wife and go, "This is the man I went to Bible school with and raised my kids, and he can't remember any of it.  Our shared history is gone." That had to be – I can't even imagine the discouragement that you must have felt. Donna: It was very discouraging, and that's why I kept trying to do those tricks, trying to think, "Okay, he's got to remember something," you know?  It was hard.  It was almost like I had four boys instead of three. Dennis: Was there anything to prepare you for the kind of commitment this was going to take?  I mean, marriage is a covenant, but your commitment was challenged to the core, wasn't it? Donna: Yes, sir, it sure was.  I thank the Lord.  I think the main reason was because I had a good home church when I grew up, and I went to church faithfully, my parents loved each other, and I was always taught that when you're married, you're married for life.  And when you say "For better for worse, in sickness and health," you're in for the long haul, you know?  And so I never even thought about divorce – that never even crossed my mind.  In a way, I guess I just busied myself into fixing the problem, you know?  Okay, we've got a problem here.  We need to start working on it, and, Lord, you've just got to help give me wisdom to know – because, also, all the decisions that he made as the husband now were put on me as far as my children and how many doctors to go to and who to go to and who not to go to, and I always tell ladies now, I say, "Listen, you need to thank the Lord for your husband's leadership." I mean, I was always thankful for my husband to make the decisions and so forth, but when I had to take that role, it was just something that made me appreciate the position that God has given me to be under my husband so that he could make those decisions for me.  And so I'm just very thankful that I was taught those things, and God's just really helped me through these things. Dennis: How old were those children at the time? Donna: My youngest was 10, the next one was, like, 17, and my other one was, like, 22, I think. Dennis: Wow, there was a lot going on in your life just raising them. Donna: Yes, sir. Dennis: Now, John, I want you to know we haven't forgotten you. John: Okay. Dennis: We know you're here, but we have to get a little bit of the drama that's taking place. John: Yes. Dennis: You came out of the hospital and arrived back home, and you were in a state of – was it almost like paralysis?  Or were you just – you couldn't walk, you couldn't talk.  You could see – you had eyesight, right? John: Yes, uh-huh. Dennis: You could hear. John: Yes. Dennis: But you didn't know how to eat? John: No, and I didn't know what words were.  That's why I couldn't read or write, and my Donna taught me phonics, finally, and my 10-year-old son would come home from school, sit on the couch and help Daddy learn to read.  And my oldest son was in college, the other just finishing high school, been going college, but my family just so good to me, people were just so good.  My church was so – I remember, even, when she brought me home from hospital that one time, and they opened the door of car, my dog, golden retriever, came over put head in lap, and I said, "Even my dog loved me."  It wasn't really a bad world to wake up to, because everybody in it loved me.  And, you know, my first memories of anything about life was my Donna rubbing my hand, telling me, "I love you, it will be all right, everything will be all right," and … Dennis: You knew what those words meant? John: In some way I did.  She would have to been sort of point out to me what, like, words "good" and "bad" meant and it's hard to really explain.  It was just a blank, and so she would begin to do – teach me these different things, and then as I began to pick up concepts is what it was, and the way I picked up on reading, I couldn't figure out what letters on books – how are they reading.  Until one day she got me dressed for church and set me in the living room and on the coffee table was a kindergarten book she going to teach that morning Sunday school and big pictures, Bible story, and what I did, Dennis, I would listen to the Bible every day on tape, because I couldn't read, and I would listen to two tapes a day, three hours, and I remember when she told me what the Bible was – see, I didn't know what I was, either?  I said, "What am I?"  She said, "You a preacher."  I said, "What a preacher is?"  And she said, "Well, that's somebody tell others what God what them know."  I said, "Wow, I couldn't be thing better that.  You reckon Lord let me keep doing it?"  And I began to learn concepts, and when I saw those pictures and the big words underneath it, "Moses" and "Red Sea," then I knew that was what I'd been listening to in Bible, and I hollered, "Donna, I can read, I can read."  Then I knew what words were, and so that's how I began learning. Dennis: Yeah, how did you know who God was? John: You know, I knew I knew God but I didn't know how I knew God and, matter of fact, in the hospital, one of my doctors said this – I would mumble things, because I knew I supposed to say things, but I didn't know how to.  So my doctor said the only word we could make out was the word "God," and it was, like, Dennis, I forgot everybody and everything but God. But I didn't know how I knew Him until through the Bible listening.  Of course, my family telling me, "You're a Christian," but I didn't know what that was, and, you know, my church told me, and they loved me, and so forth, but it was a process of me learning and listening to the Bible and what gave me the great assurance was Romans, chapter 8, where he says, "His spirit bear witness with our spirit that we're children of God."  And I'd gotten a little worried.  You know, it was – when I'd listen to the Bible, Judas Iscariot scared me, because I thought, "Here a preacher that didn't really know or love the Lord."  So I thought "Just because I preacher doesn't mean I really know the Lord and just because people tell me," but when I listened to that verse, it was like God said, "John, it my job tell you you're my child.  That's my spirit witnessing and after that I never had doubt after that I had that assurance in my heart from this word.  That's how I know you, God, but I can't remember praying a prayer. I wrote it in my Bible as a teenage boy, and I've still got that, and some people, Dennis, just put a date.  I wrote a whole page, and I treasure that.  God knew I'd lose it all one day, and I had a whole page.  I was brought up in a lost home.  My dad and stepdad had died before my illness, so I don't have any memory of them, but my mother was still alive.  She with the Lord now, and Mama told me that I from an alcoholic home.  She said, "John, I'm glad you forgot your childhood, it was real rough," but she said I led my dad to the Lord before he had died, my stepdad, and I led her to the Lord.  You know, I told my family, "Don't tell me everything, just what I need to know," because you don't really want to know everything sometime," so when I went to Mama's funeral, my aunt came up and said, "John, you used to send your mom a rose every year for she was sober after she got saved."  And I said, "Stella, what would this be?"  She said, "It would be 12."  And so I bought 12 roses and put there, and my aunt and I knew what it was.  And so the Lord has been good to help me, and I so glad Mama got to – she'd one day telling me about childhood.  I said, "Boy, Mama, I didn't know I was such a good boy."  She said, "Remember, I just tell the half of it." [laughter]  Bob: Well, we've been listening today to part 1 of an incredible story as we have talked to John and Donna Bishop about what the Lord took them through.  This is more than a decade ago, now, Dennis, and, you know, all of us, as we shared our vows with one another getting married, we pledged for better, for worse, in sickness and in health, and we may have stopped to think, "Well, how bad can it be?" or "How sick can somebody get?"  Who could imagine a scenario like this, like what Donna faced?  It's remarkable. Dennis: It really is, Bob, and I just want to let our listeners in on a little secret – don't miss the rest of the story – just the love story that we've heard of Donna Bishop hanging in there with her husband.  I know we're talking to some spouses right now who are hanging in there with the person they pledged through sickness and in health, for better, for worse, and right now it's sickness, and it's worse. You needed to hear the story to give you courage, and I just want to read you Paul's great writings about what love is, because the world cheapens what love is, and the Bible speaks so clearly.  I'm not going to read all of it, but 1 Corinthians 13, verse 4, "Love is patient, love is kind.  It's not jealous, does not brag, and is not arrogant."  Verse 7 – "It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things" – now, listen to these last three words – "endures all things."   The only way you get that kind of love is by knowing the God – the God who redeemed John and Donna Bishop and who put that kind of love in their hearts for one another. Bob: And that's the – as they used to say, "That's the genuine article."  Dennis, right after we had finished talking with the Bishops, I asked if I could get a couple of copies of the CD of the interview, because I meet with a group of guys on Wednesday night, and I wanted them to hear the conversation, and those guys came back the following Wednesday, and they said, "Can we get more copies of that CD?  We've got friends we want to send it to.  There are people who need to hear this powerful story." And we do have CDs of our conversation with John and Donna available in our FamilyLife Resource Center.  If you are interested in getting a copy or multiple copies to share with friends, go to our website, FamilyLife.com.  You can click on where it says, "Today's Broadcast," on the right side of the home page, and that will take you to a part of the site where there is more information about how to order the CD of this conversation and how you can get multiple copies, if you'd like. Again, the website if FamilyLife.com, and you click on the right side of the home page where you see "Today's Broadcast," or just call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329, and someone on our team will let you know how you can get a copy of the CD sent to you. You know, when you pull back a story like this, and you hear from a couple like John and Donna, you know that the storm that they faced, they endured, and they stayed strong, because they had spent years building a foundation in their relationship that kept them pressed close to God and close to one another. Dennis: That's right. Bob: I know when you and Barbara sat down and began working on the devotional book for couples, "Moments With You," your hope was that couples all across the country would establish a regular discipline of building their relationship with God and with one another by spending time together looking at His Word, considering the dynamics of a marriage relationship and then praying together each day for their marriage and for their family. And there have been thousands of folks who have contacted us and asked for a copy of this devotional book, "Moments With You."  This week we're making it available to our listeners who contact us to make a donation of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today.  If you go online at FamilyLife.com, or if you call 1-800-FLTODAY, and you make a donation of any amount, we want you to feel free to request a copy of the hardback book, the 365-day devotional for couples called "Moments With You." Now, if you're making your donation online, when you come to the keycode box on the donation form, just type the word "You" – y-o-u.  And we'll know to send a copy of the book your way.  Or call 1-800-FLTODAY, that's 1-800-358-6329, make a donation of any amount over the phone and just request a copy of the devotional guide for couples, "Moments With You."  We're happy to send it to you.  We trust that you can use it to begin a regular habit in your marriage of coming together each day, taking a few minutes to read the Scriptures and to pray together, and we trust that God will use this tool in your life. And we appreciate your financial support for the ministry of FamilyLife Today as well.  Thanks for partnering with us. Now, we want to invite you back tomorrow.  We're going to begin to look carefully at what it took for John and Donna Bishop to rebuild their life and their marriage together after John's memory had been completely erased.  I hope you can join us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow.   ________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com                 

God is Good (Part 1) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 2) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 3) - John & Donna BishopToday® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. For Better or For Worse Guest:                        John & Donna BishopFrom the series:       God is So Good  Bob: More than a decade and a half ago, John Bishop was experiencing headaches that took him to the hospital.  He was diagnosed with meningitis, and then a month later, unexpectedly, his memory was gone.  What happens to a person, to a marriage and a family, when everything about the past has been erased?  John Bishop says you have to start back at the beginning, learning to walk, to talk, learning to love. John: When she began to teach me, she said, "You're John, I Donna, we're married."  I said, "Married?  Married?"  And she said, "Oh, okay, you forgot that.  That means you belong to me, and I belong to you."  I look at her, I say, "You my Donna?"  She said, "Yes."  That what I call her ever since – "My Donna."  It was so easy to love her.  She loved me so good. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, August 5th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  What would happen to your marriage if, all of a sudden, you were starting from scratch? John: I tell people she taught me everything I know.  Every woman dream come true – her husband forget it all, and she get teach him.   [laughter]  Bob: And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.  In our years of interviewing folks, we've met a number of couples and heard some remarkable love stories, but the story our listeners are hearing this week is an all-time classic, isn't it? Dennis: It may be the best.  I mean, we've heard some great ones here, but we wanted to bring this story to you, as a listener.  John and Donna were married in 1974.  They had three sons.  He was an evangelist for a number of years, pastored a church, had a ranch for young people that he helped staff and give leadership to. Bob: It was back in 1995, though, that he was diagnosed with aseptic meningitis and had to be hospitalized, and normally you recover from aseptic meningitis and life goes on. Dennis: But what happened was, it was like someone erased the chalkboard.  All the memory, all of his understanding of all the basics of life were gone because of this disease. Bob: This is a month after he's had his meningitis that he loses his complete memory.  He doesn't know that he's married, he doesn't know what marriage is, he doesn't know how to talk, he doesn't know how to eat. Dennis: He doesn't know who God is. Bob: It's like starting from scratch and, obviously, that leads to an incredible stress on a marriage, on a family.  I mean, what do you do from there, right? Dennis: It's one thing, Bob, to have a life-threatening illness and live through that valley, but the story you're going to hear is all about how they picked up and began to live life on a daily basis. Bob: Donna, it's almost like when you brought John home from the hospital, you were bringing home a newborn baby who had some adult-level functionality but some very baby-like qualities.  Was he ever like a bad boy?  When he was home from the hospital, were there ever times when you thought, "I'm going to have to" … Dennis: Let's put it the way it is, Bob – did he ever pitch a fit? Bob: Or a tantrum? John: I can answer that – yes. Bob: Did he go through the terrible twos with you? [laughter]  Donna: Yes, he would – especially when it came to eating.  He wanted to eat his dessert first.  "Why do I have to" – you know, he was always asking questions, why he has to do this and do that, and it was funny, one time I came home, and he was trying to help me, so he was washing the dishes.  When he washed the dishes, he broke a plate or a glass or something, and so he hid it in the trash, buried it in the bottom of the trash so I wouldn't know that he broke a plate. So, you know, he was hiding things from me and sneaking around behind me when he was doing things he thought I didn't want him to do. Bob: Now, here's your husband. John: [laughing] Yes … Bob: … acting this way, and you feel like you have to paddle him, spank him, for how he's behaving?  How do you handle that, as a wife, when … Donna: I'd be glad to spank him. [laughter]  John: She never spanked me, but she had to get after me but, oh, she has been so patient. Bob: When did you – when did it dawn on you that you had a sin nature – that deep inside of you is this rebellion that you want to be selfish, and you want things the way you want them.  When did that register for you? John: Once I began listening to the Bible on tape, I – for instance, Bob, I can remember first lie I told, and at least after the illness.  In the hospital the nurses had asked me if I had taken something, and it was something I didn't like, and so I had thrown it away, and I told her I had taken it.  Now, I didn't know what a lie was, but I felt guilty.  But later on I learned what lying was. Dennis: I'm sitting here thinking when you hid the plate – that also had to result in some guilt. John: Yes, mm-hm. Dennis: So here is God convicting you of your need for forgiveness, your need for Savior.  And yet you've already made that commitment as a young lad growing up.  You don't happen to have that sheet of paper do you? Bob: The page in your Bible that shares your testimony? John: No, I didn't bring it.  I sorry, I didn't bring it with me. Dennis: Basically, what does that sheet of paper say? John: Well, it tells about that Saturday night in September.  I was brought up in Bristol, Tennessee, over in east Tennessee, and there was a citywide crusade, and the preacher was C.E. Autry.  He is with the Lord now.  As a matter of fact, I've got a book.  I have his name down.  I can even tell you the song they sang that night.  On my testimony CD I have some people sing it – "It is no Secret What God Can Do." [music – "It Is No Secret What God Can Do"] Evidently, that song meant a lot to me, and so I even put that down – they sang that song that night.  I was a 15-year-old teenage boy and lost home, and Mama was telling me that none of the family was saved at this point.  And I even wrote that I brought a Gospel tract home from the stadium, the Tennessee High football stadium, it's still there, and with John 3:16 on it, I can tell you it was a Saturday night that September, I got on my knees, and I put my name where "whosoever was" – "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him," and I put my name – "whosoever" there – "should not perish but have everlasting life."  I know all those details but can't remember a bit of it, but I wrote it there, and I'm just so glad that I received the Lord as a teenager. And then Mama said I surrendered to the call to preach, and preached my first sermon a month after my salvation, and I've been preaching ever since.  The Lord has just helped me and, matter of fact, she said able to be interim pastor of a little country church when a senior in high school, and this is true now – it's Goose Pimple Junction, Virginia.  That's where it was – population 29, and so … Dennis: Hold it, hold it, Goose Pimple … John: Yes. Bob: Junction? John: Mm-hm, Virginia, and it is there.  You've been there, haven't you, Donna? Donna: Been there, yes, sir. [laughter]  Bob: Donna, did you ever have anyone come alongside you after the illness, while you were trying to care for raising your boys and care for John and say, "You know, there's a place he could stay where they'd take care of him, and you shouldn't have to bear this burden?"  Did you have folks suggest that to you? Donna: Yes, sir, I had somebody suggest that I could do that, you know, if I got tired and so forth, and I would get tired of taking care of him, but I thought about it.  I thought, you know, I could, but just go on.  I just was never tempted to do anything like that. Dennis: Now, what our listeners don't know is the length of time this story took.  I mean, we're not talking about 30 days in rehab back to John getting to normal.  John, give our listeners an idea here of the timeline we're talking about here. John: Well, for several weeks, Dennis, she had to do everything for me, and you know what I mean, I say everything.  I was like a baby.  This went on for weeks and weeks.  Like I say, it took me near two years to where I could walk, and I had to work at it, work at it, and so forth, but it was just incredible how good she was to me. I remember one day she finishing cleaning me up again, and I look at her, I say, "Donna, why so good to me?" And she said, "Well, two reasons."  And I said, "What that?"  "Well," she said, "one, I promise I would."  I said, "Promise?  I don't remember promise."  And she went and got our marriage vows, and she brought them, and she said, "John, we got married."  I said, "In sickness and health, better or worse," and I remember I said, "Donna, I am so sorry it this worse, but thank you keeping promise, thank you."  And then she said, "But second reason is" – and she gave me a big hug and says, "I love you."  And I got an award back a couple of years ago.  A college had asked me to come and they surprise me, they asked me give testimony, and they were giving me an award, and so I was so scared I was going to have to say something and right at last minute, and I thought, "What I going to say?"   And here is what I said – I got up, I said, "I'm going to take this award home to my Donna, and will get on my knees, put in her lap, and I'm going to say, 'Donna, if it wasn't for God and you, I wouldn't even be alive much less getting this."  So I said, "This yours."  I said, "One day I get to heaven, and I'm going to say 'God, why you been so good to me?' and I think God going to give me two reasons.  He going to say, "One, I promise I would," and He might remind me Roman 8:28, "All things work together good them love the Lord," and maybe say "John, I told you you love me, everything all right," and then I believe God going to give me a hug, and I believe God a good hugger, and He going to say, "But, John, main reason I love you," and I sure hope I have something put at His feet and say "Thank you, God."  But I can't describe how good she's been to me, and God and everybody been so good to me. Dennis: How does that make you feel, Donna?  I mean, I'm over here crying. Donna: I'm thankful that the Lord gave me the strength and that I was taught those valuable lessons that my family taught me and my church taught me when I was young, that it's worth it.  It's worth it in the end.  Don't ever bail.  Just stay with it, God will bless you. Dennis: For two years it took you to learn how to walk? Donna: To walk good, you know, without stumbling and up steps.  He has a real hard time with steps. Dennis: But even beyond that, John, you've suffered incredible headaches. John: Yes. Dennis: I mean, and just times of just feeling lousy. John: Yes. Dennis: And that's continued on for how long? John: All 12 years.  Immediately, because of the brain damage, I began having seizures, and I still have those.  But I gladly not quite as bad, and then cluster migraine headaches is what I have, and that's what actually caused my blindness.  They change nature, they're sort of what they call "ocular" cluster migraine.  But those have been big struggles for me, and I got very depressed, very discouraged.  I wish I tell you I got sick and just said, "Oh, everything be fine," and went on.  I didn't, Dennis.  I got very depressed and went through some very dark times, and I even prayed, "Lord, please take me home, please, because I hurt," and I felt burden for my Donna.  She never tell me I burden, but I felt that way, and depressed people do. And I got so depressed, I begged the Lord, "Please take me home, please."  I tell people when I talk audience, I said, "You never life seen person want to die and pray harder than man looking at," and then I say, "But now you never in your life want to see – ever seen anybody want to live more than man you're looking at."  God turned that around and helped me through those dark times.  But that was mainly because of the pain issues and the seizures. I called them issues instead of problems.  They just become problem if I let them, but I've had a lot of issues, you know, to go through, but the Lord's given me grace every time. Bob: You know, the name of your ministry … John: Yes? Bob: "God is so Good" Ministries. John: Yes. Bob: John, some of our listeners are going to hear this and say how can you, with all you've been through, testify to the goodness of God.  If God was good, why would He allow all of this to happen to you? John: Yes, and, you know, Bob, that was the struggle I was going through.  Those questions were going through my mind, and I needed to get hold of something, and the truth I got hold of, I was listening to Bible on tape, but I really loved the Book of Psalms because David been through some trials, too.  So I listened to it over, over, over.  Matter of fact, I wore that tape out and had to get another one.  And he kept saying, though, "The Lord is good."  He kept saying it, one psalm after other, other – "God is good."   And I'm not saying that all that God is – He is also holy, and He's just, and He's righteous, but the two things that stand out to me is He is good and He's right no matter what happens.  He's always good, and He's always right.  Our God put Himself through pain.  I am able to read now, Dennis, and I'm not smart enough to be able to know a lot of general information, so I focus my reading on people who are hurting, because that's my whole life now, is helping hurting people. The one thing I can tell people is nobody is hurt more than God.  When He gave His Son – they say one of the greatest pains a person can go through is the death of a child, but yet He let Him go through greatest pain anybody ever through because something better and – now, I don't have to know what all the better is, but I know I can trust this God because He let Himself hurt.  Jesus suffered more than any of us will ever know, and if God love His Son and let Him go through that because He knew something better for everybody, I'm going to trust Him that He got something better for me and everybody, too.  You can trust a God like that.  He's not like many other religions have gods that are above pain and above suffering.  Oh, God put Himself right in middle of it, and I can't always tell people I know how something feel unless I'd been through it, but I can tell them the Lord does because His Son went through the most incredible pain ever been and the reason we're here today is because He did. So I know good going to come from it because He's a good God. Bob: Well, we've been listening today to part 2 of a conversation with John and Donna Bishop and, Dennis, as I was listening to John talk about responding to his own trials, his own pain, I thought of 2 Corinthians, chapter 1, where Paul says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of all mercies and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves have been comforted by God."  He is a living application of that verse.  Rather than being consumed by his own pain and suffering and saying, "Why me?"  He is comforting others in their affliction. Dennis: He is, and, you know, as we've talked here today, it just occurred to me – there are two groups of people that are listening to this broadcast.  One group, who is in the midst of suffering, and they're going through the valley right now, and they know exactly what John is talking about, and they have been comforted, as you've talked about.   But I want to remind that group of people where John's comfort came from, and to do that, I want to quote Dr. A.W. Tozer.  He said, "The most important thing you think is what you think about God."  And the key to John's faith was he had the right thoughts about who God was.  He got them from the Scripture – that God is a good God.  No matter what happens to us, He is still good.  No matter what befalls those we love, God hasn't changed.  "The most important thing you think is what you think about God."  There's a second group, though, and it's a far larger number, I think, Bob, even though we have a ton of listeners who are hurting who listen to this broadcast, and it's the larger number who need to be reminded of what they promised.  They promised, "'Til death do us part," and they needed to hear this love story.  I needed to hear it.  Who doesn't need to hear of a compelling promise that two people have made to each other to go through such an incredible ordeal as what Donna and John Bishop went through. Maybe you just need to take your spouse's hand before the day is over, and you just say two things – "I promised" and "I love you," and that's a great place to begin to build a family. Bob: You know, I think about the listeners who, over the next couple of weeks, are going to be off on a trip somewhere, a vacation or headed somewhere in the car.  They ought to get a copy of this CD and listen to it together as they drive wherever it is they're going together.  In fact, if the whole family is along, this would be a great story for the whole family to listen to. We've got copies of the CD in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and if our listeners would like to receive a copy, they can contact us online at FamilyLife.com or by calling 1-800-FLTODAY.  If you go online, when you get to the home page, on the right side of the screen, you'll see a box that says "Today's Broadcast," click where it says "Learn More," and you can find out how to order a copy of the CD that features our complete conversation with John and Donna Bishop.  We've had to edit parts of it for time purposes here on FamilyLife Today. Or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY and ask for a copy of the CD with John and Donna Bishop.  Again, the toll-free number is 1-800-358-6329.  When you contact us someone on our team will make arrangements to have the CD sent out to you. You know, on Friday nights at our Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences, Dennis, we talk about the inevitable difficulties that will come to every marriage.  Very few folks will receive the kind of trial that John and Donna have had to experience in their marriage, but all of us will experience challenges and trials in a marriage and in a family.  The question is – are we ready for those trials when they come?  Are we building the foundation of our relationship each day so that when a trial comes, we are ready to face it because we can stand strong together on our relationship with Jesus Christ. You and your wife, Barbara, wrote a book several months ago, a devotional book for couples called "Moments With You," that is designed for a husband and wife to read through together each day, to spend some time in prayer together, to look at a passage from the Scriptures each day, with the hope that those few minutes invested together will strengthen the foundation of your relationship.   And this week we're making copies of your devotional book for couples, "Moments With You," available to our listeners when they contact us with a donation of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today.  We are listener-supported.  Those donations are what keep us on the air in this city and in other cities all across the country, and so we appreciate hearing from you. If you go online to make a donation at FamilyLife.com, and you'd like to receive a copy of the devotional book, "Moments With You," just type the word "You" in the keycode box that you see on the donation form, the word, y-o-u, and we'll make arrangements to have a copy of the book sent to you. If you call 1-800-FLTODAY to make a donation over the phone, just request a copy of the book, "Moments With You," and, again, we're happy to send it out to you as a way of saying thank you for your partnership with us and for your financial support of the ministry of FamilyLife Today.  We appreciate you. Now, tomorrow, we're going to hear about how John and Donna Bishop can continue to call God good, even after all they've been through, and I hope you can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow.   ______________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. 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God is Good (Part 1) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 2) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 3) - John & Donna BishopToday® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Making New Memories Guest:                        John and Donna BishopFrom the series:       God is So Good  Bob: The Bible teaches us a different way of thinking about trials, to count it all joy when we experience various trials.  That can be easy to read but very difficult to do.  Fifteen years ago, John Bishop lost his memory completely as a result of meningitis.  In the years that followed, there were many difficulties the Bishop family faced. John: That night I hurting so bad, and I'd listen to Psalm, and it said, "O taste and see that the Lord is good," Psalm 34a – "Blessed is the man trusteth in Him," and I said, "God, I going to believe you're good.  If I never get better I still going to believe you're good because that what Your Word says."  And I said, "Lord, this must be what faith means is believing You even when I don't feel like it."  So I'm going to believe God good whether I feel good or not.  I'm going to believe God good whether I get better or not just because the Bible say it. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, August 6th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  No matter what happens in your life, can you say God is so good, and all His ways are good? And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition.  This past weekend we had a wedding.  My daughter, Katy, became Mrs. Katy Walker, and … Dennis: How did you do? Bob: I was fine.  I was thinking back to how all marriages start, and they all start with hopes and dreams and the expectation of a storybook romance and they all live happily ever after – that kind of a fairy tale scenario. Dennis: At least that's what we think is going to happen.  But when we start out a marriage relationship, we have no idea what God has in store for our spouse or for us, as a couple. Bob: Yes, and as we've been hearing this week, John and Donna Bishop experienced a unique circumstance in their marriage 13 years ago when he lost all memory, and the story had to begin again with a whole new set of circumstances; that the love story had to start up again from scratch.  And yet it's been remarkable to hear how God has sustained this couple and to hear them testify to His goodness in the midst of this kind of adversity. Dennis: And, you know, I want to turn to the listener at this point before you hear the rest of the story, and I want to encourage you to order a bunch of CDs and pass them out to your buddies. Bob: I've already done that.  I took … Dennis: I have, too, Bob, I'm telling you, I'm going to talk to the folks down at the warehouse, and I'm going to see if we can't make a deal so that you can order these – this story in quantity and pass it out at church, pass it out in your neighborhood.  This is going to be a story that I think is going to touch, literally, millions of people's lives around the nation. Bob: And as we hear part 3 of this story, we're beginning to get a picture of the tremendous impact John's illness had on a marriage and on a family.  I mean, here were John and Donna raising three sons. Donna:  It was hard on the boys.  I think it's probably hardest maybe on my youngest son, because he was 10 years old, and I remember one day Luke came to me, and he said, "Mom, it's not fair, because my brothers had a daddy that got to play ball with them and go hunting with them and do fun things with him," and he caught me on an up day there, so I said, "I know, but you know the Lord's going to let him be special in a different way than he was with your brothers."  And so I thank the Lord – my youngest son, he's a good boy, and I thank the Lord, and I think him and his dad are close. Bob: That had to break your heart, though, for your son to say, "It's not fair.  I want a daddy like my brothers had." Donna: I know.  It was – I struggle with the things – I was going to tell you that when – I remember one night John was laying on the couch there, and he said, "It's okay, God, that you let me be sick."  Well, when he said that, you know, I said, "Oh, no, it's not okay."  Because I just kept saying, "You know, Lord, you know, I married that other man back there, and I just would like to go back to that," and I struggled.  That was one of my struggles – the Lord just saying, "Okay, Lord, it's okay."  And it was easier for him to say it than for me to say it.  I just had a hard time. And so the Lord and I have had many discussions over this. Bob: Do you feel like you've had two husbands? Donna:  Yes, sir, I sure do. Dennis: What's the part of John before the illness that you miss the most? Donna: Probably the part just take the leadership and go on and just the energy just to go on and keep going into things. Dennis: So he was the leader, he was leading you and the family and the church and taking you in a direction. Donna: Yes, sir.  And he was, you know, just never stopped, just keep going. Dennis: What's the part of the new John that you like the best? Donna: I like the best part is he's very loving, very kind.  I guess the Lord slowed him down, and he slows down, and he appreciates things and is just – you know, when we slow down, it's amazing how many things we've learned to miss, you know, that we have missed along the way until we slow down. Dennis: John, as you hear your wife describe John prior to 1995, prior to the illness, as a man, and you are a man, I mean, you have to be like all the rest of us who want to say, "I want to be that man now." John: Mm-hm. Dennis: Do you feel that? John: Yes, I do, and yet they had some tapes of me preaching before my illness, but one day I listening one of my messages, and I was pretty harsh, and I was listening and "I don't like that guy," and I took tape out and threw it out window. [laughter]  And I like the new me better.  But, you know, my Donna puts it this way, said, before my illness I sort of knock them over the head but now I grab them by the heart.  But, you know, I think the Lord just decided if I going to use John, I going to break him all the way down and start over.  But what I know of me before, and what she telling me and so forth, I like the new me, and things don't bother me maybe like bother other people, because I've been through just so much, and not a whole lot more I could lose, you know?  So, okay, that part of it, let's go on, and I have a good time.  I tell people I'm a few fries short of a Happy Meal, but I'm happy. [laughter]  Bob: You know, in circumstances like this, it's not unusual for people to say "Lord, why me?  Why is this the path You put me on?"  And it's not just the person who goes through the meningitis who asks that, but it's the person who is caring for the person who goes through the meningitis.  How have you wrestled with the "Why me?" question, Donna? Donna: I have wrestled with it, that's, you know, why – you know, I kept telling the Lord, "Lord, we were fine," you know, "we were fine," but the Lord has just showed me, "Donna, I have something special for you," and I have learned so many things through this, and I thank the Lord that He's brought us through this because I love him more, and I love him in a different way, and it's closer, and God is able to use us.  And if we're just willing to say, "Okay, Lord, it's all right.  Whatever you bring to my life, I know it's for my good."   Every day when I surrender the new thing that, "Okay, Lord, you can have that," and I was just – struggled.  I hung onto the back things, I guess, because I could remember them.  I hung onto the things in my past, and so – but every time I'd surrender, it was just so much better, and the Lord just eased and gave me so much comfort in knowing that the Lord has a reason for it. Bob: This is almost an impossible question for you to answer, but if the Lord came to you today and said, "Okay, I'll give you the old John, and we'll start from here with things the way they were, and we'll take everything of the last 15 years." Dennis: That's a hard question. Bob: You can have your choice, what do you want?  If you could go back and undo the last 15 years and just kind of be on the path you were on, which is what you longed for at some point, would you pick that, do you think? Donna: No, sir.  I'd take what the Lord has given us, I really would. Bob: You'd say, "This path has been the right one for me." Donna: Yes, sir.  I think if you'd asked me that a few years ago, I'd probably have said no.  But I know that God – this is God's plan for my life, and it's okay. Dennis: It's back to what John said earlier – "God is good, and He's right." Donna: Yes, sir. Dennis: And … Bob: … blessed be the name of the Lord, right? Dennis: Yeah, even though it's not been easy, you've begun to experience some of the benefit of the pain that you've been through.  Can you share some of those benefits, what they would be? Donna: It's a closer relationship with the Lord.  Also faith – just knowing that God's going to take care of us, regardless of what we go through. Dennis: Give us an illustration of that.  How has He provided for you? Donna: Oh, He's taken care of everything.  I mean, we have more than we need.  As far as the physical things, God supplies everything.  Every time he goes to the hospital, I think, "Oh, here we go again," you know, but the Lord always takes care of everything, and everything always gets paid, we never late on bills.  God takes care of everything, and also our spiritual – God takes care of us spiritually, too, and gives us courage and strength and I think one thing that really touches my heart, too, is, you know, when John was in the hospital, you know, he'd just say the name of God, I knew he was praying to the Lord.  And, you know, God does – He never leaves us or forsakes us regardless. And so, you know, John might have forgot everything, and John with that hard – I couldn't go through those things at the time with him, but the Lord was with him all the way through it.  It doesn't matter how hard it gets, he's there.  And so how hard it gets on me or whoever, God is there, and we've just got to trust Him. Dennis: John, do you have anything to add to that? John: Well, the Lord gives us grace not just endure but enjoy, and, you know, he doesn't just say, "Okay, I'll give you enough grace endure this," there are times of endurance, but most time it's enjoyment.  And I get to travel, and I really cannot get to all the places people have invited me.  It's just incredible.  That's how I met one of your staff.  I took my first trip California by myself, and on airplane.  I told my Donna, "I can do it." Dennis: What's your vision?  What is it again? John: I'm blind, legally blind. Dennis: But it's 20 what? John: I don't know the number.  I can – one eye I can just make figures.  Like, I can tell you're there, but I wouldn't be able to recognize you.  Now, with these goggles that I have under here, I can read if I'm up close, and … Dennis: So how do you negotiate steps to get on a plane and to travel to California? John: You know, people are so nice to blind people.  If you've got that cane, they get out of your way. [laughter]  And I just able to make it through, and I called her, and I was there at the place, and I said, "Donna, nobody speaking English here, where am I?" [laughter]  Dennis: You were in California. [laughter]  John: She teasing – I was teasing her like I ended up another country or something.  But, you know, it's been fun.  One time I went and heard a speaker, she went with me, and this man said, "I know some of you out there got skeletons in your closet."  Well, I not been taught that yet, and I'm thinking real, and I'm sitting there thinking, "Oh, mercy, if I knew somebody like that, I'd tell on them," you know?  And who would do that?  You know, and what skeleton is it?  And I got home, and I said, "Donna, that man knew people there with skeletons, and he wouldn't tell on them."  And she then had to explain to me. So I am learning all those things, but I do have fun, I do, and the Lord has been – just give me joy as well through the trials and I'm not always laughing, but I love hearing you, because you all laugh a lot, and I love be around happy people.   Bob: John, when you started losing your eyesight eight months ago … John: Mm-hm, yes. Bob: You had to think, you know, "Lord, haven't I had enough?  I mean, couldn't we just keep the eyes?  That would sure be helpful."  John: Yes.  Oh, Bob, that was one of the biggest struggles.  I should have been able to ace that one after what I've been through, but, I tell you, I struggled.  At first I couldn't believe it happening.  I thought, "Surely not."  Then I thought, "Oh, this just be two or three week, and the Lord say, 'Okay, I just testing you.'"  But it went on and on and on.  I almost felt like when Abraham was asked to give his son, and I thought of my sight, oh, I remember, I'd tell God, "Okay, Lord, not my will, thine be done," and then I had to tell Him, "I sorry, Lord, I didn't mean it," like I needed to tell him, but, I mean, I knew I was just saying the words. Because my ministry been built around telling people that we can trust the Lord with anything, and we can go on.  He said, "Rejoice in the Lord always," and I'd lost my joy over this.  "Oh, God," I said, "I'm so sorry," and it was just like I raised the knife, and I believe Abraham, when God told him offer son, I think probably at the time God knew he really would do it.  He stopped him and said, "Okay," and I finally got a point, "Okay, God, if you want the eyes, too, that is okay.  I really do mean it."   But that really was a big struggle for me.  I should have been stronger, but I wasn't. Dennis: John, I was told when you were going to come down here that just from an illness standpoint and battling all that you're battling, you might not have the stamina.  You've done remarkable. John: Thank you. Dennis: I mean, you're hanging in there with Bob's tough questions, and … Bob: Any headaches?  You feeling okay? John: Yes, I do have headache, and my pain level each day, Bob, is around 5 or 6, between 1 and 10.  When it get to 7, I have to medicate it a little bit; 8 and 9 I can live with.  If it gets 10, I have to go emergency room.  I getting stronger, but I not quite able handle 10. Bob: So where are you today right now? John: I about a 7. Dennis: Wow, wow. Bob: I don't know many people with a 7 … Dennis: Who would be doing radio. Bob: Or smiling or laughing or talking about how good God is. Dennis: And I think what our listeners don't see is, really, the smile on both their faces. Donna: That's what I appreciate about him, is he can be hurting so bad, but he still keeps going, and he complains some, yes, but, no, not like I would.  I know why the Lord didn't give me the headaches. Dennis: Not like he could, because of what he's going through. Donna: No. John: I try to be good to her.  She's been so good to me, and I love her. Donna: He's very good. John: I want to make her happy.  There are two big goals in my life.  Number one, make the Lord happy, number two, make my wife happy, and I love to be able to do that and get her things.  When I learned I supposed to love her as much as Christ loved church and gave Himself for – I remember when I heard that, "Wow, that a lot of love.  I got to work a whole bunch on this."  There is nothing world I wouldn't do for her, and she wouldn't ask me to do something wrong or bad, but I think how good the Lord been to me.  He's given me so many things. Dennis: I know there is one other thing you love to do, too, though. John: What's that? Dennis: You love to introduce people to the King of the Universe. John: Mm-hm. Dennis: Undoubtedly, there have been those who have heard your story, who don't know Him and who need to.  Would you like to take their hand in yours and place it in God's hand, explain to them how they can come into relationship with Jesus Christ and with the Lord God Almighty?" John: Yes, yes, thank you so much.  The Bible says the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance, and if people could just stop, and even if they've been through hard times, difficult times, God in His goodness gave us Son, Jesus, for us, that we might be saved and forgiven and be with Him one day.  You see, when I die, all my suffering over.  I read in Book of Revelation where John said, "in that city no more pain."  And, boy, howdy, am I looking forward to that – no more pain. The God that wants to give us that place of no more pain is Jesus Christ.  He gave us life, He shed His blood.  It took a good God to give His Son.  It took a good Savior to give His life so that if a person realizes they're a sinner, puts their faith and trust in Jesus Christ, He'll save them the moment they turn to Him.  And that's a good God, and I just beg people not turning away.  I have had atheists saved, Dennis.  I had one atheist get saved, and he said to me, he said, "John, I couldn't argue with you.  You just kept saying God good, and he said I finally one day I realize why have I turned down such a good God all these years?" And he gave his life to Christ.  I would love to know somebody give their life to Christ.  He's a good God. Dennis: And I would say to that person right now who is listening, why don't you take the offer that God is making on behalf of you?  The good God we've talked about who gave His Son, Jesus Christ.  You don't have to get down on your knees.  You can do it right where you are, driving in a car, listening on an iPod or computer.  But if you want to, it would be a good idea to get down on your knees and just surrender your life to Christ.  It is the greatest decision you'll ever make. And, John, I just want to thank you and Donna for telling your story and for allowing us the privilege of – and, Bob, I know you and I have worked together long enough, I know you feel the same – it's just an honor to be in the studio with you.  Thank you. John: It's been an honor for us, too. Bob: We want to make sure that those listeners who are interested in establishing a relationship with God through Jesus Christ, and we want to invite you to get in touch with us.  There's a book we'd love to send you that's call "Pursuing God," that explains what it means to have a right relationship with God through Christ, and this book is available to you at no cost.  All you have to do is call 1-800-FLTODAY, and when someone answers the phone just say, I am interested in becoming a Christian, and I'd like a copy of that book, and it will be our privilege to send it out to you, and we trust God will use it to help you begin to establish an ongoing relationship with God through Christ. Again, the title of the book is "Pursuing God," and you can request it when you call 1-800-FLTODAY.  You can also request a copy of the CD of our conversation with John and Donna Bishop.  We have that in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and when you contact us, we'll let you know how you can receive that CD.  You can either order it online at FamilyLife.com, or you can call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, and we'll make arrangements to send a copy or to send multiple copies to you, if you'd like. Again, the details of how you can order the CD are found online at FamilyLife.com or simply call 1-800-358-6329.  That's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, and someone on our team will let you know how you can get the CD sent to you. I don't know how many times, Dennis, I have seen you turn in your Bible to Matthew 7 where Jesus concludes the Sermon on the Mount by talking about two different builders.  One builder who built his house on the rock and the other who built his house on the sand, and you have reminded us that when storms come in life, the kinds of storms like John and Donna Bishop have experienced, it's really a test of our foundation on what is our life and our marriage built? And each day we have an opportunity to strengthen the foundation of our marriage as we spend time with God together as a couple.  A few months ago, you and your wife Barbara wrote a book called "Moments With You," a daily devotional book for couples to encourage them to spend time praying together, looking at the Scriptures together and talking about their marriage relationship and about their family. And this week we are making that hardback book available to listeners who support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount.  We are listener-supported, so your donations are critical, they're vital, to keeping us on the air in this city and in other cities all across the country, and when you make a donation either online or by phone this week, we want you to feel free to request a copy of the book, "Moments With You," as a way of saying thank you for your financial support of this ministry. If you're donating online, there will be a keycode box you'll come to on your donation form, and we just need you to type the word "You," y-o-u, in that keycode box, and we'll know to send a copy of the book, "Moments With You" out to you, or call 1-800-FLTODAY.  You can make a donation right over the phone and just mention that you'd like a copy of the daily devotional, "Moments With You."  Again, we're happy to send it out to you as our way of saying thanks for your financial support and for your partnership with us. Well, tomorrow we're going to meet another very remarkable couple.  A couple that has weathered a significant storm in their marriage.  We'll introduce you to Charlie and Lucy Wedemeyer tomorrow, and I hope you can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow.  _______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. 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FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Life Aboard the Space Station Guest:                         Barry Wilmore                       From the series:       Life Aboard the Space Station (Day 1 of 1)  Bob: And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Friday edition. This could get a little tricky today. I'm not sure— Houston: Hello, this is Houston Comm Tech.  Dennis: This is Dennis Rainey with FamilyLife Today.  Bob: And Bob Lepine. Houston, can you hear us?   Houston: I hear you very low.  Bob: Low?  Not loud and clear?   Houston: Okay, you're coming in a little bit louder. Please standby.   Bob: Do I need to say, “Over”?   Houston: Okay, this is Comm Tech with a second voice-take on private three; now copy.  Bob: Hi, Comm Tech. How's the sound now?  Better?   Houston: Sounds better. Please stand by for a moment.  Bob: Okay.  Dennis: Alright.  Bob: I'm getting the sense that you don't make jokes with Houston Comm Tech or anybody else in Houston.  Dennis: Well, we're speaking to NASA.  Bob: They are a little focused on the mission.  Dennis: And folks, this is not a joke. That really is— Bob: Yes.  Dennis: —Houston NASA Control Center.  Bob: And here is the thing. Some of our listeners recognize that, back last fall, we had the opportunity to have a conversation with Captain Barry Wilmore and his wife Deanna just before Barry blasted off from a launch pad in Russia— 1:00 Dennis: A Soyuz rocket.  Bob: —going up to take command of the International Space Station, which is where he is today.  Dennis: And we also recorded, without Deanna knowing, a 20th Anniversary greeting.   Bob: Yes, Barry called us from the space station, back in early December—December 3rd was their anniversary— Dennis: Right.  Bob: —their 20th Anniversary. We had him, at the end of the program, sharing anniversary greetings.  Dennis: And he sent me an email, after that happened, and said: “Dennis, thank you for allowing me to do that. My daughter actually took a video.” I don't know how they do this, Bob—but they showed the video back to him on the space station. He is in the International Space Station, right now. He had a conversation—and he said, “My daughter showed my wife weeping— Bob: As she listened?   Dennis: —“as she listened to my 20th Anniversary greetings.”  Bob: And we're trying to work things out now. I think this is going to work, where Houston is setting us up so that we can talk to Captain Wilmore—  2:00 Dennis: —on the International Space Station.  Bob: Right.  Dennis: He— Barry: FamilyLife Today, hello. Hello, from the International Space Station. You guys out there?   Bob: Unbelievable!  Is it really you?   Barry: Hi, Bob! Hi, Dennis!   Bob: And how many bars do you have on your phone right now?  [Laughter]   Barry: Hopefully, enough!   Dennis: Amazing!   Bob: It is amazing that we're talking to you!   Barry: Well, thank you all for your program—it's fabulous.  Dennis: Would you mind looking out your window and telling us what you're seeing right now?   Barry: If I'm not mistaken—I didn't look at a map—but if I'm not mistaken, based on what I've seen, I believe that's Australia going by below me.  Bob: Wow!  [Laughter]   Dennis: Well, Butch, you're looking at the earth as few men or women ever get a chance to see it. What's a unique perspective you've had, just from outer space?  This is your second time to be in orbit. Any thoughts come to your mind as you glance at the globe of six billion people?   Barry: Very interesting question. You know, when I was here before—when I flew five years ago— 3:00 —it was a shuttle mission. Shuttle missions were fast and furious—it was 11 days. I think the most time I ever had to stick my nose in the window was about 20 minutes. That really wasn't long enough—it was wonderful—don't get me wrong. But now, to have the opportunity to really, no kidding, poke my nose in the window for very extended periods of time, it's truly amazing and truly breathtaking. It makes me in awe of my Lord and Savior and Creator—I mean—beyond words.  I can't explain—you can't explain the view. You can't—I mean, you can see pictures / you can see video—and they do a little bit to show what the beauty of the earth and the globe is from here; but to see it with your own eyes and realize that it's controlled by a sovereign God—like I said, it's beyond words.  Bob: Tell us what a day is like onboard the Space Station. First of all, what time zone are you in?   Barry: Yes, we work under GMT, Greenwich Mean Time, which is the same time as London.  Before I answer that question— 4:00 —let me say that / I want it to be clear—it is an amazing place, and it's an amazing view. It is an amazing thing to be here. I wake up every morning, and I float down the tube. I'm like: “Lord, I can't believe I'm here. This is just amazing!  It's thrilling.”   But I did not need to come here to know my Lord / to know my God. I mean—all that I could ever know / could ever want to know—I gleaned from the Words of Scripture. So, I didn't have to come here to find my Lord. He's in the Word—that's where He resides—and that's where He speaks to us from.  Okay, again, your question?   Bob: Just tell me about what a day is like for you onboard the space station.  Barry: Well, the days are pretty busy as you would imagine. I'm kind of a morning guy—I get up early. I get up around 4:30 or 5:00. We're not required, but it's very highly encouraged that we work out a great deal. We get about two and half hours a day scheduled to work out—we have resistance exercise.  So, that's how I start my day.  5:00 The resistance exercise machine is actually positioned right below the main window, which is called the cupola in the Space Station. I can lay there and do my work-out and see the beauty of the world go by. For instance, just this very morning, I'm working out—I look up, and there goes the nation of Israel by the window. It's the first time since I've been here that we've flown directly over the top. It was wonderful to look down and see the—from that vantage point—to see the places where our Lord walked when He was on earth—so, it was great. Anyway, that's the way my day starts.  Then, of course, the rest of it begins. It's a busy, busy place with a lot of various things going on—science, working payloads, plant seedling growth or crystal growth, working with the fish—we had fish up here. Some of them went back when the last Soyuz went back—and experiments with those. And the list goes on, and on, and on—combustion science. I mean—and that's just one day.  6:00 Then, there'll be things that will break; and we'll have to fix—that's ongoing. Of course, we have to do a spacewalk. We go out and do some things outside—that was amazing as well. So, the variety, and the opportunity, and the things that we do is varied—it's really neat.  Bob: I'm just curious if they still have Tang® onboard the Space Station—you know—because I grew up—it was all about astronauts and Tang. Do you even know what I'm talking about?   Barry: I know exactly what you're talking about—I sure do!  I don't know that it's made by people that make Tang, but it's like that—it's a powdered drink. That's all we have, basically. It's in little pouches, and we put water in it—it fires it up. It's quite tasty—I enjoy it in various flavors.  Bob: So, breakfast, or lunch, or dinner—what are your meals like onboard the Space Station?    Barry: The food is prepared a little differently—so, it does give it a different taste—and we're big on condiments here. [Laughter]  Condiments are huge!  So, you can make anything taste decent with the right amount of condiments. [Laughter]  But you know, breakfast— 7:00 —eggs, sausage links, and patties. I mean, we've got those that we rehydrate. We've got soups. We don't have salads; but we have soups, and vegetables, and meats—a varied variety of those. It's really good—I enjoy the food. Then, again, I'm not a good guy to ask if food is good because, when I was on deployment on the aircraft carrier, I even liked ship food. There are not many people that like ship food. [Laughter]   Dennis: Other than your family, what do you miss most while being in outer space?   Barry: There is only one thing that I miss. I'll tell you what it is and I'll tell you why I don't miss anything else. It is because it is such a unique place. To pine for something that I can't have—like a hamburger, or French fries, or something like that—there's no reason for that because everything else just overwhelms that.  The one thing that I don't have here—that I not only want but I need—is church. The Lord gave us His church. He gave it to us because He knew that we needed it.  8:00 We need it for our encouragement, for learning / obviously, for worship—admonishment at times. That's the one thing that I can't have here. I try to supplement that. I have messages from my home church that are sent to me weekly—and I listen to those—but it's not the same as being there and the fellowship with the body. That's the one thing that I do miss.  Bob: And you'd include FamilyLife Today in there as well; right?   Barry: Absolutely! [Laughter] Absolutely.  Dennis: Butch, I emailed you this morning. I just wonder, “How long does it take for my email to get to you?”   Barry: Now, that's varied as well. Sometimes, it gets here immediately. At other times, it takes days. It gets stuck in a hopper somewhere, and it won't get here for a couple of days. So, it's varied. Mostly, it's pretty good though.  Bob: What can you tell us about the rest of the crew—the guys you are working with?   Barry: Well, my Russian crewmates—that I launched in the Soyuz with—will be here the whole six months together. Alexander Samokutyaev is a military pilot from the Russian Air Force, and Elena Serova is a female engineer that was selected as a cosmonaut several years ago.  9:00 It's a great group of people to be around. We've trained a lot on earth together; and being with them here is fabulous as well.  Dennis: Do you speak Russian?   Barry: You know, I jokingly say, “I speak two languages fluently, and one I speak a little bit.”  I speak English, and I speak Tennessee. Then, I know a little bit of Russian. [Laughter]  Bob: But in that kind of environment—where you are living together / you're working together—I mean, you don't have anybody else to talk to other than your comrades onboard the Space Station and your comm link back to Houston. Relationships—maintaining healthy relationships—that's got to be a part of the mission; isn't it?   Barry: It is. One of the things that is good—again, that NASA does well is / like you mentioned—email. I've got friends and relationships that I've built over the years. Being able to maintain contact with those individuals via email is really—it's wonderful.  10:00 There is also—you know, I was able to send out and have 300 or so people on a friends and family website. They put some stuff on the website—like the spacewalk I did, and pictures, and whatnot. I've typed up a few things that go to that website to maintain contact with them. The people who are able to access that website can also send me messages. So, that's very helpful.  Dennis: One of the things that I did a little a research on is the massive number of people that form the NASA team—that, ultimately, slings you guys into outer space and cares for your well-being while you are out there. I'd just be fascinated to hear your thoughts about teamwork and lessons you've learned that are, literally, out of this world.  Barry: Oh, you are right. You can't—we can't have success in just about anything in life without teamwork. That's certainly the case here on the International Space Station. Yes, we're the bodies that get to climb into the rocket, and they launch, and come up here and do these wonderful things in a wonderful environment—  11:00 —it's true—but these experiments, these payloads, these procedures that I run daily—they don't exist without the team. The things that we're doing / the things that we're accomplishing up here do not happen without the team. I'm just, honestly, a small part of the team when it comes to a lot of the things that I do.  There's a mountain of people that put their passion and their life's work into much of the things that I work on here. You know, some of the experiments—there are individuals that—this is literally—literally—some of them, it's their life's work—things that they've been working on for decades—and here it is in my hands. I take that seriously, and it's a great amount of responsibility. You know, I appreciate them for what they do—the effort they've put into jobs to make some things easier for me. I'm sure they appreciate the things that we do as well. It doesn't exist without that cohesiveness, like you mentioned.  Dennis: You need to know we have a ton of young folks who listen, dreaming dreams/aspirations for their own lives.  12:00 Have you got something you'd like to say to them about what they need to be cultivating as they grow up and, hopefully, put some feet to their dreams?   Barry: One thing that comes to mind is—for me, anyway—the parable of the talents. The lord gave some more than others, but there was a certain expectation for whatever they were given. I think that, as we live our life, that we need to realize that wherever we are / whatever we are doing, we exist for His glory—that's why we're here. With whatever He's given us, we need to maximize and do the best we can with that for His glory. Do what you are passionate about / do what you love—and remember that you do everything you do for His glory.  Bob: Sometimes, things don't go according to plan. I know you all were expecting a supply delivery—that there was a little bit of a hitch. Can you tell us what happened and how you've had to adjust, as a result?   13:00 Barry: Yes, there was a mishap with a launch vehicle that was bringing cargo to us. For me, personally, there have been minor adjustments. The reason—and we've talked about it just a second ago—is the team. The team on the ground that works all of those issues have worked feverishly to make sure that we have everything that we need.  They planned ahead so we'd have a stockpile of things that we wouldn't be put in a bind on anything. There is only one or two items that were even just slightly short on because the team has been working and doing their jobs. And the team—as soon as it happened—they were at work, getting ready and planning and seeing how we go forward from there.  Bob: Were you anxious at all when you got the news that the supply vehicle had been damaged?   Barry: We were actually watching it, live, as it launched; and we saw what had happened. You know, our first thoughts, like anything—it's a clear range, and there is nobody there—but you still—there is always a chance that something will go astray. Your first thought is, “Could anybody have been injured?”   14:00 Of course, thankfully, that wasn't the case. When there is no individual harm that takes place—cargo and stuff—you can replace all of that. In that light, it's minor.  Dennis: Butch, I want you to give our listeners an idea of how big this thing is that you are screaming around the earth in.  Barry: Total size—if you think about two football fields—it's about as long as a football field and about as wide as a football field. The structure inside—they say that the size and the volume is like five buses that you would connect together. We have various modules, and I can tell you it is wide open space—it's not like the capsule I launched in. The Soyuz capsule is very small. The shuttle, with respect to the Space Station—the living space in that was fairly small—but this is huge / it's wide open.  And you're right—flying around—even inside here, weightlessly, is such a kick. It is really, really amazing. As a matter of fact, I just flipped around and am standing on the ceiling now— 15:00 —or what we call the ceiling because there really is no up and down. [Laughter]  Now, I'm standing on the bulkhead—on the wall. [Laughter]  Dennis: There are some kids, right now, going, “Oh, could I go up there and join him for that?!”  So, have you ever spilled anything up there?   Barry: It's great to watch water droplets and whatnot—so, yes, I spill it often, intentionally, because it's neat to watch. [Laughter]   Bob: I would like to be weightless just for a day.  Dennis: I could use some weightlessness.   Captain Wilmore, you have done a number of deployments in your service for the Navy. You have any coaching for dads who travel a lot?  Maybe, they don't go to outer space, but they're gone three or four days a week or a good number of days throughout the month—any coaching for them about caring for their wives and their children in the midst of that?   Barry: I think the thing that I would say from my standpoint—and what I've tried to do myself—is always think about biblical principles—you know, raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord and teach them God's Word.  16:00 That's what I do with my daughters, and that's what my wife and I do together.  I think a big part of that is preparing, especially when the children are younger—I've got a seven-year-old and a ten-year-old. We did a great deal of preparation for this separation time—discussing it and talking about it. My number one message to my daughters, and I even say it when I call them now, is: “Help Mommy.” We also—my wife homeschools—so, the follow-up slogan to that is: “Help your teacher. The principal may be out of town for a while, but he's coming back!”  [Laughter]   Dennis: So, that's a setup. Do you want to say anything to those girls of yours?—any words from Daddy to a daughter?  I know you get to talk to them too, but here is a chance to both brag on them and exhort them with a few hundred thousand, if not a million, listeners across the country.  17:00 Barry: Yes, both of my daughters are taking piano lessons—my youngest just started. I want you to know, girls—Darren and Logan—Daddy loves—loves—to hear you play the piano. I thank you when you practice, and I thank you when you play over the phone so I can even hear you from here—so, thank you for that. I want you to know that Daddy is very proud of both of you. And I, also, want you to know that the slogan is the same in this message too: “Help Mommy / help your teacher.”  [Laughter]   Dennis: Well said by a dad. Way to go!  Is there a question you'd like to be asked that's a favorite question for you to answer?   Barry: I think, you know, it's less about me / more about my Lord is where I would try to orient any question: “What drives you?”—maybe. What really, truly drives me is my desire to live according to what the Lord has laid out in His Word that we should do— 18:00 —and to glorify Him—and that's the main driver. So, that would be the question: “What drives you?” and that's the answer.  Bob: You have time in your schedule to include spiritual disciplines and to keep your spiritual self in shape; right?   Barry: Absolutely; yes, sir.  Bob: So, what are you doing in space—I know you have an opportunity to read your Bible, and you mentioned reviewing messages from church. Anything else that you are doing to just stay connected to Christ?   Barry: The Lord gave me something a few years ago that I have been continuing. It wasn't something I set out to do—it just kind of happened—and that is that I started sending out a devotion to just a couple of people daily / every single day. Over the years, the Lord grew that distribution list. I don't know how many people are on it now—I haven't counted—it's probably 70 or so different emails that I send out.  So, I do that every day—preparing the devotion to send out to those 70 individuals.  19:00 Also, I have it posted on my friends and family website. So that, right there, is something that the Lord has given me to keep me in His Word, and keep me studying, and keep me growing—and for that, I am grateful.  Dennis: I just want our listeners to think about where Butch is right now because he's looking at how this verse is really spelled out—Psalm 8:  O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth. You have set Your glory above the heavens!  When I look at the heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have set in place; what is man, that You are mindful of him and the son of man that You care for him?  Yet, you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor!  You have given him dominion over the works of Your hands and have put all things under his feet, all sheep and oxen,  20:00 and the beasts of the fields, and the birds of the heaven, and the fish of the sea, whatever passes along the paths of the sea. O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth!”   Barry: I can tell you from this vantage point, “majestic,” indeed—praise Him.  Bob: Butch, let me ask you one more question. How often does the sun come up during the day, and how often does it go down during the day for you?   Barry: Oh, there is another blessing!  The sunrises and sunsets here are just amazing. The Space Station—the whole station for about six to ten seconds turns completely orange as it goes through—as the light passes through the atmosphere. It kind of acts as a prism and separates the colors. I get 16 of those a day—fantastic!   Bob: So, is it almost bedtime for you now?   Barry: It actually—it is. I'm going to grab me a quick little bite to eat; and then, I'm going to hit the rack. [Laughter]   Dennis: Well, Butch, thanks for joining us on FamilyLife Today. Just want you to know it's no excuse that you can't listen to the broadcast up there. You should have figured that out in advance, but we'll forgive you for that; okay?   21:00 Barry: I appreciate that—[Laughter]—next time—next time!   Bob: Well, we're thrilled to be able to talk to you. Folks are praying for you, and we're going to keep praying for you. Excited to hear that the mission is going well.  Barry: Thank you very much, and I appreciate that as well. Praise Him. Thank you.  Bob: You know, it occurs to me—that when Butch lands—and I just checked with Keith—it's not a splashdown. It's not a landing like an airplane. It's an earthbound landing and a recovery. What did you call it—the Soyuz—what? Keith: They land from a Soyuz recovery capsule, and they land on the ground in the steppes of Russia.  Bob: Wow!  Keith knows these things. [Laughter] When that happens—after he and his wife have had a chance to kind of get acquainted with one another again—we need to get them to one of our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways for a little refresher.  Dennis: Yes.  Bob: When you've been gone for several months, it's good to have a little getaway weekend together and to hear, again, God's design for the marriage relationship.  22:00 Of course, you and I are going to be speaking at Weekend to Remember getaways next weekend. You're going to be in Hershey, Pennsylvania. I'm going to be in Colorado Springs.  Dennis: Yes.  Bob: We've got another four or five getaways happening next weekend—Valentine's weekend. Then, throughout the spring, there are Weekend to Remember marriage getaways happening in cities, all across the country.  If you and your spouse have never been, you don't have to go to outer space in order to qualify to attend a Weekend to Remember. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and sign up to attend an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway—get more information about when one of these getaways is coming to a city near where you live. Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY and mention that you'd like to attend a Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. We can answer any questions you have—let you know about dates and locations.  But we hope you'll make plans to invest in your marriage, whether you've been apart for a while or whether you see each other, day-in and day-out. This kind of getaway is great preventative maintenance for every marriage relationship.  23:00 Again, learn more at FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link at the top of the page that says, “GO DEEPER.” You'll find information about the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway there. Or call 1-800- “F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then, the word, “TODAY,”—ask about the Weekend to Remember.  One final note before we're done. Next week is National Marriage Week. We're going to be celebrating all week long with some special things going on social media. If you are not a friend of ours on our Facebook® page or if you don't follow us on Twitter®, let me encourage you to sign up so that you can be in the loop for all that we've got going on next week—some fun stuff, some helpful things, and some ideas for Valentine's Day.  You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and scroll all the way down to the very bottom of the page. You'll see the links there for Facebook and Twitter—you can sign up that way. Or, if you're in the know, just go to Facebook and Twitter—follow us @FamilyLifeToday—that's our Twitter handle.  24:00 Or you can click, “Like,” on our FamilyLife Today Facebook page and join us that way.  And with that, we've got to wrap things up. Thanks for being with us today. Hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend. I hope you can join us back on Monday when we're going to begin a weeklong look at the Song of Solomon and what that book has to say about marriage, and romance, and dating, and intimacy. We're going to hear messages from Pastor Matt Chandler next week. So, hope you can tune in for that.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with help today from Tom Thompson. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you Monday for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2015 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 1) - Juli Slattery25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 2) - Juli Slattery25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 3) - Juli SlatteryFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. What Does God Approve of? Guest:                         Juli Slattery               From the series:       25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask (Day 1 of 3)  Bob: More marriages than ever are struggling with issues related to marital intimacy and sexuality. Dr. Juli Slattery says, “There is a good reason why.”   Juli: You can now assume that the average couple is dealing with issues of pornography / there is a good chance there has been sexual trauma in the past—that people are bringing in a lot of baggage, and shame, and guilt about the things that have happened before marriage. We're dealing with the assumption, now, that there are an awful lot of men and women who are single, into their 30s and 40s, before their first marriage. The game has really changed. God's truth hasn't changed, but how we address it and the assumptions we make are very different.  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, October 24th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We're going to dive right into today and talk about issues that a lot of you are facing in your marriage. Stay with us.  And welcome to FamilyLife Today.  1:00 Thanks for joining us. We just ought to say, here at the beginning—we're about to have a candid conversation on a sensitive subject. It's one that you sometimes wonder, “Should we even be talking about this?”  But honestly, every time we talk to couples about issues in their marriage, this subject comes up.  Dennis: It does. We've got a person who knows how to handle delicate subjects like this very, very well. Dr. Juli Slattery joins us on FamilyLife Today. Juli—welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Juli: Thanks for having me.  Dennis: You know, I'm really impressed, Bob, that Juli chose to be on FamilyLife Today. Most of our guests we trick, but Juli actually chose to be on FamilyLife Today and talk about this subject we're going to talk about. [Laughter] Bob: She knew what she was getting herself into; right?   Dennis: In case our listeners don't know who that name is—Juli is married to Mike and has been since 1994. She has three sons—lives in Colorado. She is a clinical psychologist— 2:00 —author of seven books, speaker, and host of Java with Juli, which takes place in a coffee shop.  Juli: It does; yes. See, I love coffee so much I had to find a way to work it into my normal routine.  Dennis: Yes. Have you done some Java with Juli on this book we're about to talk about?   Juli: Well, you know, I think that this book came out of a lot of those conversations. So, it's kind of sprinkled around, I'd say.  Dennis: Well, our audience is wondering what you've written about. Here's the name of the book—you're going to get the point—25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex, and Intimacy. Why this book?  Why now?   Juli: Well, I run a ministry called Authentic Intimacy. A lot of what I do every day is teach, and write, and answer people's questions on sexuality. Wherever I go—for example, speaking—we will have at least a half an hour, if not an hour, of live Q&A where women can text in their questions anonymously.  3:00 From that and, also, meeting with women and the emails we get—there are some consistent questions that women will ask. We just thought: “Hey, why not compile this into one resource?  These are the questions that either we get asked all the time or, sometimes, they're the questions underneath the question.  Dennis: Is there a number one question women are asking today that seems to be a unique question because of the day we live in?   Juli: The questions that are most common, probably, would be the most common ten years ago, I'm going to think—about like: “What does God approve of in the marriage bed?” for example—or as a single woman—“Does God say this act is wrong?”  That's the number one question.  I think, in terms of the changing culture, what I've seen—and probably what you've seen in your ministry to marriage and family—is that things that were an assumption 15 or 20 years ago are no longer an assumption—like: “Where does the Bible actually say it's wrong to have sex out of marriage?  I've never heard that before,”—  4:00 —whereas, again, 15 or 20 years ago, those were assumptions that we could begin with.  Bob: When we host our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways for couples, we always have time where we are with the engaged couples.  Twenty years ago, when you got the engaged couples together in the room, you had an assumption, as a speaker, that some percentage of your audience was probably sexually active during their engagement period. Today, when you get together with that group, the assumption is virtually everybody—in fact, I think the statistic I saw most recently was that five percent of women who get married today are virgins when they get married.  Juli: Yes.  Bob: We're in a very different place than we were two decades ago, as it relates to a lot of the subjects that you are writing about.  Juli: And it's not just being sexually active; but you can now assume that the average couple is dealing with issues of pornography; that there is a good chance there has been sexual trauma in the past—that people are bringing in a lot of baggage, and shame, and guilt about the things that have happened before marriage.  5:00 And we're dealing with the assumption, now, that there are an awful lot of men and women, who are single into their 30s and 40s, before their first marriage. The game has really changed. God's truth hasn't changed, but how we address it and the assumptions we make are very different.  Dennis: There is one other subject you left out of that list, and that's the multiple choice sexuality that we have today. People used to have to decide whether they were going to be immoral or not. Now, they have to choose whether they are male/female, homosexual male/homosexual female, transgender. There is fluidity about our culture today that really adds a lot of confusion as well.  Juli: Yes; that's a great point. And I think, even within the last five years, we've seen this permission being given to children, to parents, and to teens. I don't think we've seen the impact of that yet. I think, probably, in another five or ten years, we're going to start seeing these young children that were told, at a young age, that: “You can choose to be male or female,” “You can choose your sexual orientation,”— 6:00 —when they start getting into their 20s and 30s, it's going to be, again, a big game changer.  Bob: Juli, I'm imagining that when you were a junior in high school and starting to think: “Gee, I wonder what God's plan for my life is. I wonder what I'll be doing and what—how He'll direct my life,”—I'm guessing, as a junior, you weren't thinking, “I bet I'll be writing and speaking a lot about sexuality and intimacy.”    Juli: No; I wasn't thinking that ten years ago. [Laughter]   Bob: So, where did this begin to blossom in your life and why this subject for you?   Juli: It began with the Lord taking me, personally, very deep in my relationship with Him, just out of the blue. There was a season of about a year where God was just waking me up in the middle of the night, just drawing me to Himself in a way that I had never experienced before.  At about the same time, I had met Linda Dillow. She began to just spiritually mentor me.  7:00 As I was going through that time of seeking the Lord, month after month after month, I actually started to get a pain in my chest / in my heart that would get more intense as I would pray. It was there for months. Linda started to say: “The Lord is giving you a new call. You need to ask Him what He's calling you to.”   So, I'd just get on my knees and say: “God, what is this pain?  What is this call?”  One day, on my knees, I was just praying. The words of Isaiah 61, verses 1-3, just flooded through my mind—that “God has anointed me to preach good news to the poor, to bind up the broken hearted, to set the captives free.” I didn't even know where that verse was found. I Googled it on my phone—found it in Isaiah—and wrote in my Bible on that day: “This is Your call on my life,” and wrote the date and didn't know where that would lead.  That's kind of a long story to say that this was not my choice. I was probably the least likely to be a spokesperson on sexuality— 8:00 —because I don't like conflict / I don't like difficult conversations—but it was so clear that this was what God was calling me to—just the pain, particularly, that women experience all around the world on this issue of sexuality and that God hears that pain, that He hears the cries, and that His truth is able to minister. That's how all this began; and since then, it's just been really a daily walk of faith.  Dennis: You quoted what Isaiah talked about. It's actually kind of a picture of going to a prison—a place of torture / a place of pain. What percent of women today, do you think, are coming out of that prison when it comes to their own sexuality?  Is it over 50 percent; do you think?   Juli: For sure.  Dennis: And where are there major issues that they are struggling with right now that you are picking up?   Juli: Yes; I would say that percentage is probably around 80 percent in my experience. I think the reason that we don't see that big percentage is because the struggles are different.  9:00 We tend to categorize and compartmentalize. For example, if we've got about 30 percent of women who've experienced childhood sexual abuse—probably, the percentage is even higher; but that's what's being reported—then, you also have women, who are drawn into pornography, that struggle with lust issues. They don't know where to go with those.  Then, you have women who struggle with sexual identity. As the research is coming out in homosexuality, you find that about seven percent of women struggle, at some point, with sexual identity issues. That's more than double the percentage of men that struggle. So, women are being told that their sexuality is more fluid.  Then, you add to that, Dennis and Bob, just the average Christian wife who doesn't know how to enjoy sexuality—whether it is physically painful; or she's filled with shame and guilt about this issue / she can't forgive herself for things in the past. Maybe, her husband is involved in pornography or has been unfaithful.  10:00 You add all of those together—and even things I'm not mentioning—and you're talking about a vast majority of women in churches, I'd even say, who have these hidden issues and nowhere to go to ask the questions because they're not invited to ask.  Dennis: And one of the things I want to talk about before we're done is—I want to talk about equipping parents to know how to raise their sons and daughters in this culture and how to cope with damage that's done to their children—maybe, they're victimized / maybe, it's their own choice—but I'd like you to help parents know how to coach their kids / counsel their kids—allow them to come out of the prison / out of the hidden shame—and deal with this without having to go through a long valley in their adult experience.  Juli: You cannot give what you do not have.  Dennis: Yes.  Juli: And that's the first step—is that a lot of parents don't know where their own issues are regarding sexuality.  11:00 They don't have a practical understanding of how God views sexual brokenness / healthy sexuality. So, they feel very ill-equipped to pass on those conversations and beliefs to their kids.  That's where you've got to start—is: “Who are you—as a mom or a dad, as a husband or a wife, as a male or female—in terms of your own sexuality working through your own brokenness?”  Then, once God has really brought truth into your life, you can begin passing that on to your children.  Bob: You know, we talked about the fact that the vast majority of people getting married today have already been sexually-experienced / they've already been together as a couple. They're bringing into marriage—whether they know it or not / whether they believe it or not—they're bringing in baggage / they're bringing in scars. They have disobeyed what God has said is best. There is shame there, whether they realize it or not.  I remember, Juli—years ago, speaking to a group of parents and asking this question— 12:00 —I said, “How many of you would love for your children, as they are growing up, you would love for them to have exactly the same experience in dating and relationships before marriage that you had when you were growing up?”   Juli: What a great question.  Bob: In a room of a hundred people, you'd see two or three hands go up. Now, that's got a lot of parents out their going, “I don't want my kids to follow the path that I went on.”  Yet, many of these couples don't know what to do with the sexual shame, the sexual brokenness, the sexual sin that's a part of their past that is still influencing their attempt to have healthy marital sexuality.  Juli: And it's not only the shame that you bring into marriage—that's a big part of it—but it's also how you view sexuality. When you have sexual intercourse with someone before marriage, essentially, you are trading a commodity.  13:00 You're saying, “I'll please you if you'll please me.”  You're always on trial. What the research is showing—particularly, couples that live together before they are married—they bring that attitude about sexuality and relationship into their marriage.  When you save sexuality for marriage, you're saying: “This is an expression and a celebration of the promise we've made to each other. No matter what happens, I'm not going to reject you. If you don't please me, I'm not going to reject you. We're going to work through issues.”   And so, it's not just the shame and guilt. It's that residual belief about why we are sexual and why we share our sexuality: “Am I on trial in front of my husband or wife?  Are they going to reject me?” or “Is this a covenant and the celebration of a covenant?”  People don't think that way / they don't talk about that, but that underlies a marriage. Until you get to some of those issues, it's very difficult to pass on healthy beliefs to your kids.  14:00 Dennis: So, to that person who feels on trial—who feels like he or she is under performance with their spouse—what do you advise him or her to do?   Juli: I think it begins by acknowledging that we've brought, not only the obvious sexual baggage into our marriage, but we really allowed the enemy to have a foothold here. We've allowed him to tell us lies—like: “I can't trust in your love. You may reject me,” or lies that: “I have to perform for you to stay with me,”—“Those are underlying our marriage. Let's, as a couple, just get on our knees and ask God to break all of that that happened before we got married and to renew what we are doing here.”   I've met with couples who actually will say: “From this day forward, our sexual intimacy is going to be a whole different deal, because we understand it now. We're going to say: ‘God, forgive us and release us from all of our past. We want to move forward with a new beginning.'”  I think that's a really healthy place to start.  15:00 Dennis: I think there is something powerful, intensely spiritual, and healing to a husband and a wife who can bow their wills before Almighty God together, and pray together, and pray for one another, and begin to yield this area of their lives for God to sanctify it, make it right, make it holy—however, you want to describe it as the Bible would—and to allow that sexual dimension of the marriage relationship to be used for His purposes in their relationship; because it is good / it's not bad—the world is the one who has caused us to think that it's bad and evil.  Juli: Yes; and even when you mentioned praying together about your sex life and marriage, a lot of people are like: “Really?  You can pray about that?  God really wants to hear about it?”  Yes!  He wants to bless it, and He wants to sanctify it. If you, as a couple, would commit—even for a month or two—to pray about sexual intimacy in your marriage, to pray together, to pray before or after sexual intimacy— 16:00 —you're going to see God begin to release things that you didn't even know were there from your past and bring healing that you didn't even know you needed.  Bob: A number of years ago, we had a conversation with a young wife. Her name was Heather Jamison—I don't know if that name rings a bell with you—but on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com, we posted the interviews that we did with Heather. She and her boyfriend became sexually active while she was a senior in high school / he was a freshman in college. She became pregnant quickly. The families got together and decided, “Well, if you're pregnant, you need to get married.”  They got married.  Years into their marriage, significant struggles—not just in the sexual area—but in all areas. Heather came to a point where she recognized: “We have never fully addressed the reality of our sexual sin. We felt bad about it. We were sorry about it.”   17:00 But she said, “There's a difference between that and repenting before the Lord with a brokenness and an understanding of how this was an offense against Him—not just a bad mistake we made—but we offended God.”  She goes on to describe how this act of being broken before the Lord about the reality of sexual sin was the first step to liberation for them.  I'm sure you've talked to person after person who has had that same kind of breakthrough.  Juli: Absolutely. And this can apply, also, to things like a spouse that's been unfaithful or a spouse who has been into pornography—to have that moment, as a couple, where you truly realize the devastation that's been done—not just sweeping it under the rug or saying, “Hey, we got counseling,”—but before the Lord, true repentance and believing that He is able to redeem and heal is the most profound thing that you can do.  Again, it's something I think we skip right over. We look for the advice of:  18:00 “How do we fix it?” Scripture will say, “If you will confess your sin before God, He is going to be faithful to cleanse you.”   Bob: And let me just say—I think a person can tell whether they have really addressed their sexual sin from the past if they'll just do this simple test. If they'll say, “Here's what I did in the past, and I know it was a sin against God,”—and if they can just stop there without saying, “But…”—see, it's when we get to “I know it was a sin against God, but…—and then, we have all the excuses—“but I was this,” or “I did that,” or—now, all of a sudden, it's like: “No; you need to be able to stop with: ‘I know it was a sin against God. I know it was an offense against His holiness.'”   You've got to get to the place where you really face up to the fact that this is not an excusable act, but this is really a conscious choice of sin that reaps consequences in your life. Until you get there, I don't think you can get to the liberation.  19:00 Dennis: Yes; we're not talking about a formula here to solve this problem, but we have talked about a couple of things that really do work. First of all, repentance—which we've been talking about here—where you do admit before Almighty God: “I'm sorry. I turn from that sin. We confess it together, as a couple; and we turn away from it.”   The other is for a couple to pray together—and I think importantly, out loud—to be intimate with God together, as a couple, perhaps, before sharing in intimacy as a couple or, as you mentioned, Juli, afterward—just to acknowledge that this was made by God in the first place / this is not manmade. This is made by Almighty God, and you want to invite Almighty God into the most intimate area of your relationship.  But there is a third thing that I just want to highlight here that's so important—you've got to begin to erase the past but replace it with the right thoughts about sex today and the future.  20:00 I've got to just say, “One of the best ways you can do that is by coming to a Weekend to Remember marriage getaway.”  Come and hear God's perspective on sex in a wholesome, practical, edifying way. You hear it at the conference, and you hear it together. It gives you a vocabulary to talk about it, and you realize: “This is good. This is okay; and God does delight in us coming together, as a couple.”   A lot of couples go through a period of their lives and they stay in the valley too long, when they don't have to stay there—they can find solutions today. There are a lot of great tools. We've just talked about three of them here—repentance, prayer, and then, getting God's perspective on sex at a Weekend to Remember. The key is: “Step out of the hidden places and come and allow God to shine His light on it.”   Bob: This is one of the key issues that gets addressed at the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. I've talked to so many couples there, who have said, “Thank you for being appropriate and yet candid in addressing this.”  21:00 I mean, where can you go to get a good, honest, biblical look at what God created—human sexuality?   I'd encourage our listeners—if you have not yet signed up for one of our Weekend to Remember getaways this fall, we still have a couple dozen events happening between now and the end of the year. You can go to our website at FamilyLifeToday.com and look for information about the Weekend to Remember.  Also, look for information about the book we've been talking about today from Dr. Juli Slattery that's called 25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex, and Intimacy. You can order the book from us online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-358-6329—1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”  And we'll be happy to get a copy of Dr. Slattery's book to you.  22:00 Given all of the turmoil that's going on in our country these days, with the elections and all of the dialogue that's taking place, we have put together a series of ten devotionals for your family just to remind all of us that the stability that we need in times like this comes from having our hearts anchored in Christ. He is our refuge and our strength. They're available on the FamilyLife app on your smartphone. If you haven't downloaded our app, just go to your app store and look for the FamilyLife app and download it. You can pull up the devotionals on your smartphone, or you can download them as a PDF document from our website at FamilyLifeToday.com.  Now, it is a big day today out in Yukon, Oklahoma, where Rocky and Cindy Terrel are celebrating their 24th wedding anniversary. The Terrels listen to FamilyLife Today on KAKO radio. They've been to the Weekend to Remember.  23:00 In fact, they brought a group of folks to a recent Weekend to Remember getaway; and they are also Legacy Partners. We just wanted to say: “Happy anniversary!” to the Terrels. “Thanks for your support of this ministry.”   FamilyLife exists so that more couples will celebrate more anniversaries. We are The Proud Sponsor of Anniversaries™. Actually, those of you who, like the Terrels, help support this ministry—that's what you are supporting. You are supporting the health of couples and families who depend on FamilyLife for practical biblical help and hope. When you make a donation today, you're investing in the marriages and the families of tens of thousands of couples who are being helped today through the ministry of FamilyLife.  If you can help with a donation today, we'd love to show our thanks by sending you a banner that Barbara Rainey has created that is a reminder that your home is an embassy of the kingdom of heaven. You can request your embassy banner when you make a donation online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY; or when you mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. 24:00 Now, tomorrow, we're going to talk more about love, and intimacy, and sex, and what's okay and what's not, and “How can yours be better?”  Dr. Juli Slattery will be back with us. Hope you can be back as well.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 1) - Juli Slattery25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 2) - Juli Slattery25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 3) - Juli SlatteryFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Sexual Discipleship Guest:                         Juli Slattery               From the series:       25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask (Day 2 of 3)  Bob: Has it ever occurred to you that sexual intimacy between a man and a woman—that was God's idea and His design?  Here is Dr. Juli Slattery.  Juli: I think that the average Christian couple can't imagine God blessing anything sexual—where we see in the Song of Solomon that, actually, God is blessing this couple that is in the midst of sexual intimacy: “Eat friends. Drink. Imbibe deeply. Enjoy this, because I gave this to you as a gift. Even if you've got all kinds of things in your past, bring those before Me / lay them before Me; and I bless what you have today within the confines of marriage.”   Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, October 25th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey. I'm Bob Lepine. The Bible has a lot to say about intimacy in marriage—a lot of good things—and we're going to explore some of it today. Stay with us.  1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I think you were the first person I ever heard quote Howard Hendricks on the subject we're talking about today. And the quote, if I remember it—you can correct me if I'm wrong—was— Dennis: I will. [Laughter]   Bob: No—no doubt there. I think he said, “We should not be ashamed to discuss what God was not embarrassed to create.”    Dennis: That's right. You nailed it.  Bob: That's what we're going to be doing today; right?   Dennis: We are going to discuss what God was not ashamed to create. In fact, I just want to read about it—here in Genesis, Chapter 1, verse 27: “So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.”  I don't understand it. I just know the Bible proclaims it. Somehow, our sexuality, as men and women, declares who God is to a planet that does not know Almighty God and all that He is about. 2:00 And I've got to tell you—over a lifetime, you just begin to explore what God is up to around this whole area of human sexuality.  Dr. Juli Slattery is going to help us unpack this today and provide all the answers with a book that she has written called 25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex, and Intimacy.  Juli: Wow!   Dennis: Wow is right.  Juli: All the questions—I don't— Dennis: Well, you actually chose to be on FamilyLife Today to discuss this.  Juli: This is obedience.  Dennis: I think it is. [Laughter]  Juli has been married to her husband Mike since 1994. They have three sons. She is a clinical psychologist / authored a number of books.  I just want to talk about something that you discuss in your book. I've never heard this subject before; but I have to admit I really, really like this—you talk about the need for sexual discipleship. I love the concept because discipleship means training;— 3:00 Juli: Right.  Dennis: —it means equipping; it means helping someone know how to think about life. Now, you apply it, if you would, to the area of human sexuality.  Juli: Absolutely. You know, I grew up in a Christian family / in church. The best that I got was little pockets of sex education. The difference between discipleship and education is what you referred to, Dennis—is: “Do you know how to think biblically about God's design for sexuality?”   Dennis: Give us an idea of one of those little pockets of truth you learned, growing up. Explain what you mean by that.  Juli: Sure. You're told sex is wrong before marriage; and somehow, it is right after marriage: “Don't do it before you get married. Don't think about it. Don't be sexual. But as soon as you get married, all of a sudden, this switch will flip, and you're going to have fun.”  So, that's what we're told.  The reality of it is—you are a sexual person before or if you never get married— 4:00 —you're still a sexual person: “What do I do with that?”  Then, once you get married—if you get married—it's not like this switch will flip and then, all of a sudden, you know how to enjoy this. I experienced that as a Christian young woman. It was like the messages were so confusing. I would say, in the first decade of our marriage, “This area was not good”; and we didn't know how to address it because we weren't given the training.  Bob: I just have to say—I love the fact that your starting place for this conversation is—not how to counteract cultural messages or how to answer: “Well, what's acceptable / what's not acceptable?”—your starting place is: “Let's think like God thinks about this subject. Let's cultivate a biblical worldview and not just a limited, pocketed biblical worldview, where we know this is true and this is true; but we don't see the big picture. Let's get it all out on the table and understand it in a fully-orbed way.”  5:00 When you do that—now, all of a sudden, a lot of the questions that you have get answered by themselves; don't they?   Juli: They absolutely do. What I'm seeing, in working with women, is that the average Christian woman has been discipled in many areas of her life—including her marriage—but she hasn't been discipled in how to think about sexuality.  Bob: So, when you're advocating sexual discipleship—the term that Dennis mentioned—how does that happen in a practical way?  I think there probably are a lot of people, going, “And who's competent to do the discipling, given the fact that we're all kind of messed up in this area?”   Juli: I don't know who first said it, but I've heard someone say that: “Some things are too important not to do poorly.”  In other words, we don't have to have it mastered to step into this arena. We just have to say: “Alright, Lord, we're dying here / we're drowning here. Would You begin equipping us?  Would You begin raising up leaders?  Would You give us wisdom to know what You believe about sexuality by reading Your Scripture with that lens?”   6:00 There are a lot of resources out there. That's part of my passion—is creating resources—there are other ministries doing that—but it says: “Let's not just look at the issue; for example, of pornography and say: ‘Oh, that's bad. Here's how you combat it.'  But let's tie that into the larger spiritual battle of what's happening in our church and in our culture related to sexuality and why God cares about that battle.”   Dennis: And you don't have to wait until—as we're talking about here—you have the subject mastered— Juli: No.  Dennis: —to begin talking with your son or your daughter.  I just have to raise one of the issues that a lot of parents are afraid their children are going to ask, “Well, Mom/Dad, did you wait?”—to which, how do you answer that question?  How do you help parents know how to deal with their children's curiosity?   Juli: Yes; you know, it's a wonderful example to share the gospel right there; because what we know from children and, particularly, teenagers is that they learn and respect you the most when you're authentic.  7:00 You don't have to give details; but if you tell the story, right then, about if you didn't wait: “How I didn't trust God's plan,” or “I didn't know God's plan. Here are the consequences that I walked with. Here's how the Lord met me and has forgiven me in that,” and “I don't want you to have to walk through those same consequences that I did.” So, not only there, discipling your children sexually, you're discipling them in terms of understanding what grace is / who God is—that He can forgive sin. It's those teachable moments that we, because of our own fear, walk away from instead of walking into.  Dennis: So, you're raising three teenage sons right now.  Juli: Yes.  Dennis: You would have that level of honesty.  Juli: Yes, because they struggle: “All of us need the grace of God—me too—and this is how God has brought grace into my life, and I would love to see Him bring that grace into your life right now.”   Bob: You mentioned that in the first decade of your marriage, this was not an area of marriage that was something that you'd say you were thriving in.  8:00 If you were doing a little sexual discipleship today with Juli Slattery—in year five of your marriage— Juli: Yes.  Bob: —what questions would Juli be asking you, and what answers would you be giving her?   Juli: I would say the two questions that I was asking at the time were: “Why did God make us so different?  This would be so much better if we thought the same and wanted the same things.”  And I would be asking, “Why did God make this more fun for men than He did for women?”  It felt very much like this was my wifely duty.  God has begun answering those questions for me, and it's a joy to pass those on to other women and other couples. You know, that first question of “Why did God make us so different?”—one of the things that I began to realize is that God cares a lot about how we love each other. He really cares that we become greater lovers, not selfish lovers.  9:00 As long as a husband and wife want the same things, they can be fulfilled by being selfish; but as soon as he wants something different than you want, for you both to be fulfilled, you have to learn to be servants and unselfish. God's begun teaching me the beauty of working through those frustrations and becoming unselfish so that you both can be fulfilled. That would be the answer to the first question.  Then, the answer to the second question—boy, I was really messed up in my understanding of sexuality from a biblical perspective; because I think there is this Christian tradition, rather than biblical truth, that God has created sexuality for a man and the woman has that wifely duty. But when you read the Scripture; for example, 1 Corinthians 7—before it ever talks about a wife's duty to fulfill her husband's needs—it says, “The husband has the duty to fulfill his wife's needs.”   10:00 I think we skip right over that. We don't challenge men—to say, “Your wife is going to be a lot more complicated to figure out than you are; but God is charging you to learn about her sexuality, to learn how to please, to learn how to invite her into intimacy.”  We don't talk that honestly about what the Scripture actually says.  Dennis: I said earlier that one of the great needs in this sexual discipleship that needs to occur is that we need, as a couple—a husband and a wife—need to get away and get immersed in “What is the biblical plan for marriage?” and understand God's view of human sexuality and sex in marriage. And I just recommend what we've done at the Weekend to Remember® as an illustration of this, because we set the context for sex after about five hours of teaching at the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. We don't move to sex right off the bat—we move to commitment; we talk about leaving, cleaving, becoming one; understanding communication; resolving conflict—before we come to the subject of human sexuality.  11:00 You indicated before we came on the broadcast today that you and your husband had been to a Weekend to Remember marriage getaway, and it had an impact in your life.  Juli: It did. We, actually, have been to two of them. The first one was probably—we were only married for, I'd say, a year. The main thing I remember about that Weekend to Remember—hey, I remembered it!  [Laughter]  That was over 20 years ago, but I remember the Women-Only Session. I don't remember the name of the woman who was teaching, but she challenged women to take seriously the sexual aspect of marriage. That had a profound impact on me.  Then, the second time we went to a Weekend to Remember was probably ten years later. Cliff and Joyce Penner were speakers at that conference. They speak very specifically about sexual intimacy and overcoming difficulty.  12:00 At that time in our marriage, we were encountering some difficulty. Their words really ministered to me personally and to us, as a couple.  I love what you guys do with that Weekend to Remember. It is changing lives and marriages. It's a great resource.  Dennis: And it just helps a couple to sit under the teaching of some folks who have done a pretty thorough job of researching the Bible and talking about these areas of marriage—the husband's responsibility, the wife's responsibility, conflict resolution, and how two people do develop their sexual relationship over a lifetime. This is something that isn't instant.  I'll never forget what Barbara's mom said to her just a few weeks before we got married—she said, “Well, sweetheart, all I can tell you is—it gets better with time.”  And you know, you think about that: “That's not a lot of words;— Juli: Yes.  Dennis: —“but from a mom to a daughter, it's sweet. It authenticates it, and it blesses it.” 13:00 I think we have a generation of young people today who need that kind of godly counsel that blesses this area; because the world is, again, twisting and really trying to take it in another direction.  Juli: And because the world is taking it in another direction, I think that the average Christian couple can't imagine God blessing anything sexual—where we see in the Song of Solomon that, actually, God is blessing this couple that is in the midst of sexual intimacy: “Eat friends. Drink. Imbibe deeply. Enjoy this because I gave this to you as a gift. Even if you've got all kinds of things in your past, bring those before Me / lay them before Me; and I bless what you have today within the confines of marriage.”   Dennis: Yes. There is a great picnic in the Song of Solomon.  Juli: There is—yes!   Dennis: And if you've not read that, you need to read all the way through the book.  Bob: And obey the Scriptures. [Laughter]  14:00  Now, we're talking to Dr. Juli Slattery. The book she's written is called 25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex, and Intimacy.  Juli, over the years, one of the things that has been a question that we've increasingly heard from women is, “I don't fit the stereotype.”  The stereotype is the husband has the appetite for this area, and the wife doesn't. “In my marriage”—this wife will say to us—“it's the opposite. Is there something wrong with me, or what's wrong with him?”   Juli: Yes. I would say that probably for couples that are in their 20s or 30s, that stereotype is actually even broken now; because it's so common now for the wife to want sexual intimacy more than the husband does. It's a new norm which is something that we increasingly hear as well.  Bob: So, what's the deal?  Why is it like that?  And what do you say to a wife who says, “My husband just is not interested”?   15:00 Juli: It's difficult to have a cookie-cutter response to that, Bob, because I think that there are so many different reasons why that can be.  Dennis: Right.  Juli: For some couples, it's just their normal / it's their biology. It can be the fact that, in some cases, a woman has a higher than normal level of testosterone in her body. It can be personality. So, for some couples, you just have to say: “You know, this is our normal, and we don't need to compare ourselves to some stereotype. Let's just enjoy what we have together and work through it.”   But there are also couples where there is something going on that needs to be addressed. A couple of the most common issues are—number one, pornography; and number two, I think, men not feeling like men in marriage. We'll talk about both of those for a second here. With pornography, what you have to understand is—pornography ruins your sexual appetite. It's almost as if you feed a kid, growing up, Doritos® and ice cream and then you put broccoli and chicken in front of them, they don't have an appetite for what's healthy. 16:00 That's what's happening with this whole generation of men related to pornography. They've been exposed to it from the time they were eight, or ten, or twelve and exposed repeatedly to the point where their brain cannot sexually respond to normal, healthy sexuality. In many cases, I think that's the issue—where men cannot respond to healthy, sexual intimacy; and also, it's safer for them to escape to fantasy or pornography rather than work through the issues with their wife.  Bob: There is no rejection in pornography.  Juli: Right.  Bob: But in marriage, you face the potential of being turned away.  Juli: And there's no work that you have to do with pornography—there is no waiting / there is no loving, and sacrifice, and communication. So, men are just going that route instead of working on true intimacy.  Dennis: Yes; the command for husbands to understand their wives—it's not optional.  Juli: No.  Dennis: And this area, I think, points out to us how well we understand our wives or how little we understand our wives. 17:00 Bob: But you said it's not just pornography. There may be another factor that is draining the sexual interest away from a husband.  Juli: Yes; I have found in working with couples that very often the pattern that's happening in the bedroom is mirroring the pattern that's happening in their emotional relationship. We're seeing more and more that women are getting married with a sense of confidence and competence and “I know where we're headed, and I have goals.” Men are more immature in terms of knowing who they are, what they want, and spiritually more immature.  So, we have women really leading the family; and we have women that are critical of their husbands—almost treat them like little kids, like: “Pick up your socks,” and “Why did you do it this way?”  That is going to bleed over into the bedroom. I think a lot of the reason we're seeing this dynamic is because men don't feel like men in their marriage. They feel like they are married to their mom, who is always criticizing and telling them how to do things.  18:00 That is going to flow over into sexual intimacy.  So, now, the reason that is difficult to talk about these topics is—I would hate for the couple that has healthy, emotional intimacy—there is no pornography involved, but they still have this dynamic of the woman having a higher sex drive than the man—for them to feel paranoid—like: “Well, there must be something wrong with us.”   But I would say—in probably 80 percent of those marriages, where there is this role reversal, there is something else going on—whether it's pornography, or maybe sexual abuse that a husband has in his past, or this pattern of a woman being a very dominant person in the family and the man becoming passive.  Dennis: Comment on workaholism; because we live in a very fast-paced culture, where sometimes guys are just worn out from their jobs and they don't have a lot of energy.  Bob: Guys and gals— 19:00 —I mean, it is husbands and wives getting together at ten o'clock, going: “I'm exhausted. Are you exhausted?”  I just have to say here— there have been a few times when my wife said, “I thought you said you were exhausted;” and I said, “Well, I thought I was.”  So, that—it doesn't always work that way, but what is this dynamic of how being exhausted can affect your intimate relationship?    Juli: Yes; and the number one reason why women are not interested in sex is because of exhaustion. I think men are catching up with that in terms of just the levels of stress that they're dealing with— Dennis: Right.  Juli: —the tiredness. That's all feeding into a lack of sexual interest as well. But I think the main point here is that most couples do not see their sexual relationship as a priority. Now, some guys are saying, “I sure do”; but I would say, in general, the average couple doesn't say, before the Lord, “This is something that we need to make a priority and work on.”  Now, if you read 1 Corinthians 7, that passage is actually saying: 20:00 “This should be a priority. You should not be neglecting this area of your marriage. You should be working on making it fun and exciting for both of you.”   When you don't make something a priority, you save the leftovers for it—so: “If we happen to have a little extra energy—both of us—at 10:30 at night, when we've worked all day and taken care of kids, maybe, we can enjoy each other.”  Well, that's not going to happen. When you begin saying: “This is not only a priority for us in marriage, it's also a priority that God has given us in marriage,” you begin saying, “Okay; we've got to save some of the best of who we are to work on this—our energy, our time, our focus.”  That can be a game changer.  Dennis: And what we're talking about, Juli, is really a part of your concept called sexual discipleship, which is getting God's perspective on sex. I would just encourage our listeners: “If you want to begin that process, Juli's book, 25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex, and Intimacy, would be a great way to start.  21:00 “And also, the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway—come as a couple—invest the weekend and have some good, honest and, maybe, hard, difficult conversations about the sexual dimension of your marriage relationship."   I think you said it earlier—how did you say it?—about some areas are far too important to avoid?   Juli: Yes; they are worth doing poorly.  Dennis: Yes; that's true with our children as we educate them; and it's also true of us, as husbands and wives. We need to make sure we run the race together and end up at the finish line together.  Bob: And that's what we're trying to point people to as they attend a Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. In fact, let me just remind listeners—if you have not been to a Weekend to Remember or, maybe, it's been—oh, I don't know—more than a decade since you came to a Weekend to Remember, what about this fall?  You can sign up online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call if you have any questions at 1-800-FL-TODAY.  22:00 When you're on our website, be sure to get a copy of Dr. Juli Slattery's book, 25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex, and Intimacy. You can order that from us at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”   Now, if you've not yet started using the ten devotionals that we have put together to help us keep our hearts and minds anchored in who Christ is during times of instability, like we're in right now as a nation, let me point you to your smartphone. If you have the FamilyLife app, you can pull up these devotionals and use them at the dinner table or the breakfast table. Or if you'd prefer, you can download a PDF of these devotionals and use that. Go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, in order to download the PDF. Again, we hope these devotionals are something you can use as a family and that you'll find them helpful as they remind you of what is true in times of instability.  23:00 Now, “Happy anniversary!” today to Luis and Lidia Beltre, who live in Laurel, Maryland. The Beltres are celebrating eight years as husband and wife. And you know what?  In eight years, they've already been to three Weekend to Remember getaways. They are also listeners to FamilyLife Today on WAVA, and they help support this ministry. Thank you for partnering with us as we seek to provide practical biblical help and hope for marriages and families, day in and day out, through this ministry. We're so grateful for your partnership with us.  In fact, if there is any listener who would like to make a donation to help support this work and to invest in marriages and families, we'd love to say, “Thank you for your support today,” by sending you a banner that Barbara Rainey has created. It's a banner that declares your home is an embassy of the kingdom of heaven. That's our thank-you gift when you donate online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate; or when you mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. 24:00 Now, tomorrow, we're going to hear about the breakthrough that happened in Juli Slattery's marriage when it came to the subject of intimacy and sex. She'll share that story tomorrow. Hope you can be here for that.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 1) - Juli Slattery25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 2) - Juli Slattery25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 3) - Juli SlatteryFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Spiritual Component of Sexuality Guest:                         Juli Slattery               From the series:       25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask (Day 3 of 3)  Bob: Dr. Juli Slattery had been married ten years before there was a breakthrough that occurred in her marriage in the area of marital intimacy. Juli: We had many years of boredom. You know, one of the first steps I took was I dedicated three months: “Lord, I'm going to pray about this area of my life. I'm going to learn to enjoy it, and I'm going to learn to pursue it.” I got serious about saying: “God, You're not okay with where we are. I'm not okay with where we are. I'm going to devote myself to helping change that.”  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, October 26th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey. I'm Bob Lepine. Could it be that a season of prayer and study could actually bring about a breakthrough in your marital intimacy? We'll talk more about that with Dr. Juli Slattery today. Stay with us. 1:00   And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I hope our listeners have been hanging with us here this week as we've been talking about a sensitive subject. I have to tell you—just in the conversation, there is such rightness in talking in a healthy— Dennis: Oh and it's healthy! Bob: —biblical way— Dennis: Yes! Bob: —about what God created. Dennis: If there's a radio program on—on all of radio—it ought to be a Christian radio program talking about sex from a biblical perspective. Dr. Juli Slattery has been with us this week. I just want to tell you: “You're doing a great job. Your book is excellent—25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy.”  Juli—welcome back to the broadcast, first of all. I just want to ask you—you've been married since 1994 / you have three sons: “What is the most important lesson you personally have learned about love, sex, and intimacy?” Juli: That this is spiritual terrain.  2:00 It's not just a matter of good parenting or having a happy marriage—that sexuality represents a very intense spiritual battle. When I learned that, it was a total game changer in how I approached this in my marriage and parenting. Dennis: So, in essence, you're saying: “Who are you listening to? Juli: Yes; yes. Dennis: “Are you listening to the Bible and God's perspective of sex?”—because that's really the only place you're going to find it is in the Bible—or “Are you listening, watching, and feeding from what the world is?” Bob: Yes; when you're standing at the supermarket checkout line and Cosmo is there—what they're advertising on the front cover is not, “Here's how to think biblically about sexuality”; right? Juli: No; no. Bob: They're kind of compartmentalizing it to a purely biological activity that you can disassociate from every other aspect of your life. When people think that way, what happens to their sexuality? Juli: Well, and I think a lot of Christians do think that way—they think that sexuality is compartmentalized.  3:00 What happens is that you never realize that Jesus needs to be Lord of that area of your life too. In 1 Corinthians 6, it talks about the sexual, and spiritual, and the relational all being intertwined—that you can't make a sexual choice that isn't also spiritual. When you start to understand that—that this is a major battle; and if I'm not careful with even the little choices I make, I can be contributing to evil I hate.  Boy, when you get that, it changes—for example, we all hate sex trafficking and sexual exploitation. We hate it / we wish it would go away. But we don't realize that our choices—for example, to look at pornography feeds into sexual exploitation and trafficking—that we have a part to play in that. Even just a cavalier attitude about casual sex—and you can hook up with whomever you want—you're contributing to the enemy's design on tarnishing sexuality.  4:00 That's really convicting. It changes the way we pray, and it changes the way we act. Dennis: I want to take a step back and just address a couple, who are listening to our broadcast, where sex has become boring. The romance is kind of out the window—it's a routine, it's a duty, it has lost its zest, and—well, whether a man or a woman, it can just be something you just “have to do” or neglect to do. Bob: Yes. Let's say somebody comes to you and says, “Okay; here's our deal…”—a couple in their 30s / they've got three kids. Both of them have full-time jobs. They would say: “You know, I guess for the last year, maybe once or twice a month we'll have sex and it is okay; but it kind of feels more like a chore. I'm honestly—I'm really okay if we just kind of let it phase out of our marriage.” There are people thinking like that; aren't there? Juli: There are; absolutely!  5:00 I would say: “First of all, you're normal. Those are normal seasons of marriage. Second of all, you might be okay with letting it fade away; but God's not okay with letting it fade away. We know that because, in 1 Corinthians 7, one of the few very specific pieces of marriage advice that we get from the Bible is: “Don't neglect sexual intimacy except for mutual consent for a time of prayer,”—that's the only reason why you should be avoiding this. Now, of course, there are health issues and things like that you may need to work through; but the spirit of it is: “This is very important for you to pursue,”—that would be the challenge of: “God would say you need to keep working on this,”—but it is normal to struggle. Bob: Even if the husband and wife kind of mutually say, “We're okay with it sliding,” you're saying: “You may be, but God's not. You need to make this a more active discipline in your marriage”? Juli: Absolutely! And the biology actually supports that.  6:00 The biology shows—now that we understand more about the brain and sexual response—that if a couple is sexually intimate on a regular basis, the hormones that are produced in the brain bond that husband and wife together—actually, in some ways / in a very healthy way—make you addicted to your spouse, where you can't wait to see them / you can't wait to be with them. You get a hormone in your body called oxytocin that makes them more pleasurable to you / like less offensive. It's the same hormone that a new mom gets when they have a baby, because you need to love that baby no matter what happens. God has created sexual intimacy, when it occurs regularly in the confines of a relationship, to be glue that continually draws a couple together. To neglect that is, not only something that God says is a bad idea, it's what scientific research is saying is a bad idea.  Dennis: In your book, you talk about a couple that almost sounds like what Bob was describing—been married ten years, had three kids, and were going through a time of sexual struggle/boredom.  7:00 That couple was you and your husband. Juli: Yes. [Laughter]  We had many years of boredom. One of the first steps I took was—I dedicated three months: “Lord, I'm going to pray about this area of my life. I'm going to learn to enjoy it, and I'm going to learn to pursue it,”— which was just something that God gave me and challenged me with.  I'm a very goal-oriented person; and when I set my mind on doing something, I put energy into it—I save time for it; I think about it; I pray about it. That's what happened in this area of our marriage—is I got serious about saying: “God, You're not okay with where we are / I'm not okay with where we are. I'm going to devote myself to helping change that.” Dennis: Did you tell Mike you were going to do that? Juli: No; I didn't want the accountability! [Laughter] I told him after! [Laughter] Bob: So what happened in that three-month period? Juli: A lot happened! I think I could see definite changes— 8:00 Dennis: Is Mike where we can call him right now? [Laughter] Juli: He probably is. Dennis: Let's get him on the phone and find out what happened. Juli: Really? Dennis: Really! Juli: [Laughter] You are serious? Dennis: I'm serious. Juli: Okay. Bob: You good with this? Juli: Yes; sure!  Bob: Alright. Juli: I don't know if he will be, but— Bob: Well— Juli: —we'll see. Bob: —we'll find out. Juli: Ask him honestly. Bob: I think our engineer, Keith, is punching up the phone number right now. [Phone ringing] Mike: Hi; this is Mike speaking.  Bob: Mike Slattery. Mike: Yes.  Bob: It's Bob Lepine from FamilyLife Today. I'm here with Dennis Rainey and your wife, whom I—I heard her call you “Swoo”? Is that the—is that—  Mike: [Laughter] Bob: What does that stand for?—Swoo? Mike: I don't—there's not a real actual acronym or what not—it's just a song we made up, way back when, “Swee Swoo” and “Swoo” just kind of stuck after that. Bob: It just stuck—well that's nice! Dennis: So Mike, I just turned to Juli and I said, “So, you prayed about your intimacy with your husband for three months” and I asked her / I said, “So did you tell Mike?”  9:00 She said “No; I didn't want the accountability!” [Laughter] We were starting to ask her; and we thought, “No; let's just call Mike!”  What did you think about what was happening, Mike? Mike: I think anytime you go back to God for anything—be it a budget, be it parenting, be it physical intimacy—you're never going to go wrong. As Christians, that's what we subscribe to—God has all the answers, and any area of our life is open to prayer with that. I think the world kind of guides us away from that, but I think that's the best thing to do. Juli has been a great example of doing that—she lives what she says. If she doesn't, she prays about it. We're very open with that communication, which has been great.  Bob: When did it dawn on you this was an area that your wife was beginning to pray about this whole issue of intimacy in marriage and that God was at work? Juli: Well, if I could—maybe just tell a story to kind of prompt the memory of what was happening. This was probably a good ten years ago, before I started off thinking of Intimacy. I would have my quiet time in the evening.  10:00 As any young mom knows, the evening is your time—where you put the kids to bed; you don't want to be bothered; you have your tea; and your Bible, or books, or whatever. I would have my quiet time and just be asking God, “Would You show me how to draw closer to You and how to love You?”  During that period of time—of beginning to pray about this—the Lord would begin speaking to me, ”If you want to love Me, then go up and just initiate with your husband.” There were a few times—and it's become more frequent now— Mike: Exactly; yes. Juli: —where I'll be doing my quiet time, whether it's in the morning or the evening—and that's the word that the Lord will give me—is: “This is a way that you honor Me.” Mike: Yes; basically, I remember when there was one time where Jules was—in her routine, typically on Saturday—Juli would get up, she'll go down and do her quiet time—kind of her normal routine, Monday through Sunday—she'll do that.  11:00 If it's like on a weekend, when I'm not going to work or jumping to the gym, I'll kind of stay in bed and kind of let her do her—that's her time with God. I never want to encroach on that.  There was a time, where I was praying about it—and I just doing my quiet time, and she was doing her quiet time. We were both praying about the same thing. Then Juli came up, and we would kind of share that together—like: “Were you praying about this?” and “I was praying about this,” “I think God heard us.” [Laughter] So that was really—that was very special. Bob: You're a good sport, Mike. Thanks for letting us interrupt your day and just authenticate what your wife has been sharing with us here. Mike: I appreciate it. Thank you, guys, for getting the message out, because Juli's been doing this for the last several years. When she was at Focus—and initially, when God was pulling her away, we prayed about it. I said, “As long as you're sure this is what God wants you to do, I'm 100 percent behind you.” It's been a great journey. The main thing is we're all used by God.  Dennis: I appreciate your courage too. The easiest thing to do is nothing.  Mike: Sure. Dennis: The easiest thing to say, if you're a very private person, is nothing.  Mike: Yes. 12:00 Dennis: And in the process, there's a lot of folks, again, who have received some help and hope as a result of you guys being honest about your own marriage. Pray God's favor on you in your pursuit in your vocation but also in your family. Mike: Thank you so much. I truly appreciate it. God bless. God bless all of you. Bob: You want to say, “Goodbye,” to your husband? Juli: I love you Hon. Thanks for being a good sport. Mike: Okay; I love you Baby-doll. Look forward to seeing you tonight baby; alright.  Juli: Me too; bye. Mike: Bye-bye. Dennis: [Laughter] I wish they could see Juli's grin, Bob.  Bob: I think they could hear Juli's grin—[Laughter] —as she said, “Goodbye,” to her husband. You've been married how many years? Juli: Twenty-two years. Bob: And you're looking forward to seeing him tonight? Juli: Yes; of course, I am—he's my best friend.  Bob: If your marriage had been on the trajectory / if it had remained on the trajectory that it was on—if you hadn't, ten/twelve years ago, had this kind of three months before the Lord, where do you think you'd be today? 13:00 Juli: Not where we are; because I had all the education I needed, as a clinical psychologist. I worked with couples on marriage issues and sexual issues but never really understood the power of inviting God, and the power of bringing sexuality under His Lordship, because I'd never heard that before.  When you invite God into any sphere of your life, He's going to confront you on things that are difficult—yes—but He's / but He's going to provide hope and healing in ways that you didn't know you needed. Dennis: You're a clinical psychologist. I'd like you to give your best counsel to men about understanding their wives. Juli: I guess the analogy that I like to use regarding sexuality—and this is because I'm a mom of three boys—is I like to talk about Legos®. If you, on your honeymoon—you think you're going to open up this great gift that's going to be complete—you'll be really disappointed. And that's the truth with Legos.  14:00 If you go to the store and buy a package of Legos, and you see this beautiful thing on the outside—this cool Bat mobile or whatever it is—and you open it up, you're disappointed.  I would encourage men that God has given you a gift of building something together that, at first, isn't going to make any sense; but that's part of the design—that He's challenging you to learn to love, and to build, and to sacrifice. Your wife may take years/ I'm going to say your wife may take decades to really understand sexually, and emotionally, and spiritually. She does not understand herself. But God's challenge to you is to: “Continue to build; continue to pursue; ask God for wisdom—have a sensitive heart.”  This is the other thing I think we pass right over—in Ephesians, Chapter 5, Paul writes specifically to husbands. He says to “…love your wives as Christ loved the church and laid Himself down for her.” Then it says that “He washed the church with the word, presenting her as a spotless bride.”  15:00 Part of what Paul is saying to you, as a husband, is: “Are you protecting the purity of your wife so that you can present her as a spotless bride?” Don't bring anything into your mind or your bedroom that would defile your wife. Make that a safe place, emotionally and spiritually. Dennis: I would add one other thing too: “If you think you're going to trade in this box of Legos for a better box, that's all put together perfectly—it's a lie. Juli: Yes. Dennis: “It's a lie. The box God has given you is the one you need to keep your covenant with / keep building into and stay the course. Don't quit.”  Okay; Juli—now, I want you to take the women underneath your arm and just counsel them. What would you say to them about their relationship with their husband? Juli: Well, I would say, “Don't underestimate the power of sexuality,”—  16:00 —that so often we think of power as a bad thing—but I see that God has given a wife, naturally, tremendous power in marriage around the issue of her body and sexuality. Because we're not always open and honest about that being a powerful tool that God has given, we don't use that power well—we either neglect it; we don't prioritize it; or we use it in a manipulative way. If you can say: “Oh man, God has given me a place of power in my husband's life that I'm jealous of—I don't want any other woman on the planet to have this power with my husband. I want to learn to use it effectively to capture his heart / to share something with him that no one else gets to share with him.” That's going to take work to pursue; and I've shared in my own testimony how it has taken work, but it is so worth it.  Bob: I want to ask you about that power—because we've seen husbands and wives get pulled outside of the marriage covenant; because another woman uses that power with a married man, or because a married man pursues a married woman.  17:00 When a couple takes sexuality outside of their marriage—when they give up on what ought to be going on at home or when they just supplement it with an affair—what's really going on in the heart of the husband or the heart of the wife in pursuing that infidelity in the first place? Juli: There can be lots of things going on, but I think a profound thing is—they've never really understood, in the concept of covenant, that sexuality is all about covenant. The reason that God says it's reserved for marriage is because there's this lifelong promise or covenant. If you take it outside of that, you're destroying something so spiritual and special, that recovering from that is tremendously difficult.  First, there's that discounting of the covenant—but also, pretty much with every situation where there's an emotional or sexual affair, you can kind of do the forensic on that relationship. The couple can begin to tell you, “This is when we started drifting apart,”—  18:00 —whether it was when she got busy with the kids, or she put on weight and didn't feel sexy anymore, or he got so pulled into his career that he stopped spending time with her. I know you two work on marriages so much that you've seen this—that affairs don't begin with that relationship of being sexually unfaithful—they begin when you get seeds planted in your mind that: “Someone else can love me more than this person loves me.” Dennis: It's an emotional connection— Juli: Absolutely. Dennis: —not a physical connection—but it grows into that. Juli: Yes. Dennis: I think what / what our listeners need to know that: “If your relationship is teetering toward an emotional affair, the advice is: ‘You've got to extinguish the chemical reaction now. You've got to take the number out of your cell phone; you've got to completely sever the relationship—if it means changing places of work because of the temptation— 19:00 —you have to protect your marriage, and your family, your children, your legacy.' This is really, really important what we're talking about here.” I so agree with your advice: “Protect your covenant at all costs.”  Bob: I think you made a good point. You might just pull back and analyze, “What is it that I'm most attracted to here?” because that will help you identify what's been lacking—some longing that's an unmet longing—that was designed for marriage that may not be happening in marriage. Then sit down with your husband or your wife and say: “You know, there's an area in my heart that I've just felt lonely in,” or “…I felt lacking,” “….an area where we can—can we work on this together, and can we try to grow this together?”—rather than saying: “I'm just going to go find it somewhere else.” It is poisoned fruit outside the marriage covenant.  20:00 The other thing I encourage you to do is—just honestly ask the Lord—and even to share with a mentor and ask, “What lies am I believing?” because the enemy works in lies.  Dennis: That's right. Juli: He will convince you that you're going to be happier with someone else, or some other guy is going to understand you more than your husband does, or that God can't rekindle and restore your relationship with your husband or your wife. You need to confront those lies with truth. Dennis: You're not going to trade in this box of Legos and find another box that's perfectly put together, exactly the way you want it. You're still going to be dealing with your selfishness.  Juli: Yes. Dennis: You're going to be dealing with another person's selfishness; and then, you're going to be dealing with the debris of a broken marriage / a broken family. That's not a recipe for success in marriage, family, or in life.  Juli, I just want you to know I'm really proud of you for stepping out in faith and beginning this new ministry called Authentic Intimacy.  21:00 I know that you didn't have to go try this / go do this, but I think it's a much needed area in our country.  I hope that our listeners will get a copy of your book. I hope they'll use it to talk with their sons/their daughters—whether they are still yet at home or as adult children—about this important area and dimension of the marriage relationship.  Bob: Yes; some of them are going to want to subscribe to your podcast, and they can do that. In fact, we've got instructions on our website if you want to find out more about what Juli is doing with the Java with Juli podcast—you can download it. There's information available when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Dennis: And in case you didn't notice, it's the Java with Juli with a little mocha, a little chocolate, and a little whipped cream. [Laughter] There's some spice— Bob: Hazelnut—there's some hazelnut in there.  Dennis: We'll stop right there! [Laughter] Bob: Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and you can download the podcast. You can also order a copy of Juli's book, 25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy.  22:00 Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. Or you can order the book when you call us, toll free, at 1-800-FL-TODAY—1-800-358-6329. We mentioned this last week—we've had a lot of our listeners who have started using the ten family devotions that we've put together that are available on the FamilyLife app on your smartphone or your device. These devotions are designed to help us, as families, keep our hearts and minds focused on Christ in the middle of what can be unstable times. You can find the devotions if you have the FamilyLife app on your smartphone or device—just pull it up and click where it says, “Help and Hope.” Or you can download the devotions as a pdf document from our website at FamilyLifeToday.com. We hope you'll do that; and you'll find the devotions helpful as you shepherd your family and seek to keep your eyes fixed on the One, who is the author and finisher of our faith. 23:00 We've got a couple of couples who are celebrating anniversaries today. First, Ralph and Jean Carlson, who live in Brooklyn Center, Minnesota, and who listen to KTIS—42 years of marriage today. Then in Columbus, Ohio, Brian and Michele Livingston—they listen to WRFD, and they've been married six years today.  We've been celebrating anniversaries all this year because 2016 is FamilyLife's 40th anniversary. We thought the best way to celebrate 40 years of ministry is to just reflect on all of the marriages that are still together, in part, because of how God has used FamilyLife in the lives of so many couples who listen to this program. If you can make a donation today, we'd love to say, “Thank you,” by sending you a banner that Barbara Rainey has created for the home that declares your home as an embassy of the kingdom of heaven.  24:00 It's our thank-you gift when you make a donation online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can request the banner when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate or when you mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. Now, tomorrow, our friend, Steven Curtis Chapman's, going to stop by. We're going to visit with him. Hope you can be here for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

Reading to Children (Part 1) - Sally Lloyd-JonesReading to Children (Part 2) - Sally Lloyd-JonesFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. God Breaking into History Guest:                        Sally Lloyd-Jones                  From the series:       Telling Stories to Children (Day 1 of 2)      Bob: One of the challenges that families often face during the Christmas season is how to or even whether to blend in the holiday traditions with the biblical story of Christmas. Here's some thoughts from author, Sally Lloyd-Jones.  Sally: You know, I became a Christian when I was four. I am sure, the first four years of my life, we were—it was more Santa Claus. Father Christmas was the big person looming in your life when you're little. I suppose the excitement of: “He's coming!” and everything like that—that's not so dissimilar to what you—actually, is the truth of Christmas. It's exciting; because your rescuer is coming, which is much more exciting than “Santa's coming with presents.” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, December 7th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Sally Lloyd-Jones joins us today to talk about how we keep Jesus at the center of the Christmas season. Stay with us.  1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us.  Dennis: How's your English accent, Bob? [Laughter] Bob: Terrible. [Laughter] Dennis: You have a great impersonation of Jerry Falwell.  Bob: Yes; but— Dennis: Can I hear your Sally Lloyd-Jones? [Laughter] Bob: I'm not that clever! [Laughter] No; mine would be [speaking with English accent]:  Look at her, a person of the gutters, Condemned by every syllable she utters. By right, she ought to be taken out and hung For the cold-blooded murder of the English tongue! Sally: That's brilliant. Bob: Thank you. Barbara: I know that one. Bob: Do you? Barbara: I watched that over, and over, and over. Bob: That's Henry Higgins. Don't you know Henry Higgins? Sally: Of course! I was just testing. [Laughter] Bob: If you could have anybody come to your house and tell the Christmas story to your kids at Christmas time, who would—wouldn't you want Sally Lloyd-Jones coming and telling the Christmas story to your kids? Dennis: I think a wonderful story I'd love to hear—just to hear George tell the Christmas story. Barbara: Oh, A Wonderful Life! [Laughter]  Bob: George Bailey? Dennis: Yes! Bob: [Imitating George Bailey] “Help me, Clarence. Help me! [Laughter] Get me out of here!”  Sally: He's very good; isn't he?  2:00 Bob: [Imitating George Bailey] “Get me back to my wife and kids!” Sally: You love films, I guess. Bob: I do; I do. Dennis: When it's Christmas time—this happens to Bob every 11 months—so just put up with it if you would. [Laughter] I just introduced, very casually there, Sally Lloyd-Jones, who joins us again on FamilyLife Today. She was born and raised in Africa, schooled in England, lives in New York City. She is the New York Times author of a bestselling book—one of them she has written is called The Jesus Storybook Bible. Bob: I think everybody listening to FamilyLife Today has The Jesus Storybook Bible—feels like. How many copies? Sally: Two point five million. Barbara: Then I think you're right—it is everybody. Bob: Everybody I run into— Barbara: I have one, and I don't have children at home. I have mine marked—I love it! [Laughter] Sally: Oh. The most exciting thing to me is its now in 34 languages. Bob: Oh, that's wonderful. Dennis: That's cool! Barbara: Wow! Dennis: What's your favorite language out of those 34?  3:00 Sally: Well, I'm really excited about Arabic—it's just been translated into Arabic. What I love to say is, “I wrote a book I can't read,”—[Laughter]—actually, three of them! Dennis: And is it in Mandarin? Sally: I think it is. Bob: That's great! Dennis: That reaches a few people too.  Also joining us is my wife Barbara. Tell them about Sally's book that we're also talking about this Christmas. Barbara: We're talking about this book that she wrote for children for Christmas: Song of the Stars: A Christmas Story. I just think it's a great idea to have books to read to your kids during the different seasons, because we have all these traditions that we do. I remember when we were raising our kids—there were certain books that we read, every season, that were favorites. I think this one will become a favorite of many families to read, year after year, with your children.  Bob: We had, in our library at home, it was called The Holiday Story Book. There were stories for every holiday of the year. So you'd open it and read one for Valentine's Day or whatever. I never read any of them except the Christmas one. I remember it was a story of a car in an old car lot that was sitting there.  4:00 Nobody wanted to buy this old car—it was a clunker and barely ran. Apparently, as I remember it, Santa's sleigh malfunctioned right over the car lot; and he had to hook up the reindeer to the car.  Sally: That's very good. Bob: All of a sudden, this old clunker of a car became Santa's sleigh for the holidays. There was something about reading it that was kind of my Christmas rituals to get me ready for the holidays.  Barbara: It had a bit of a redemption story to it—that's why it rang true. Bob: There is something about story, at Christmastime, and the opportunity for parents to engage with their children around the Christmas story, that is meaningful on a whole variety of levels; isn't it?  Sally: Yes; I love that tradition—like Barbara said. We love traditions; don't we? Dennis: Yes. Sally: I love—you know, that we have several days before Christmas to get ready for Christmas. You have lots of opportunities. Dennis: So how will you spend Christmas in New York City? Sally: Well, the thing is—I end up in England, really—so I never have been in New York on Christmas day. Dennis: Oh, New York City is delightful that time of year! Sally: Yes. Dennis: I mean, Barbara and I have been there. There is definitely a nip in the air. That city is— Sally: Oh, it's magical. 5:00 Barbara: It is magical. Dennis: It's dressed up—it is really dressed up. Sally: And again, talk about traditions—you have The Nutcracker you can go to every year.  Dennis: Yes. Sally: You know, The Messiah— Dennis: Yes. Sally: —all these lovely things.  In England, one of the traditions that's one of my favorites is Kings College Choir carols on Christmas Eve. Barbara: That would be wonderful. Sally: It's broadcast on the radio. Apparently, it's been broadcast since like, I think, the war—or even before. One of the stories I love is that—it's a boy choir / a male voice choir. They have little boys who might be six/seven. The whole broadcast begins with Once in Royal David's City; but the first verse is sung so low by one of the youngest boys. So they don't get completely freaked out—the choir master chooses three boys and trains them. Just like maybe seconds before the broadcast begins, he taps the boy that he's chosen on the head and he sings it; and he has no chance to get nervous. [Laughter] Dennis: Are you kidding me?! All three of them will get nervous! [Laughter] Sally: Yes; right! [Laughter] But it's so beautiful—that voice—the pure voice of a young boy singing Once in Royal David's City and the acoustics—to me, that's one of the high points of Christmas. 6:00 Dennis: So what do you do in England for Christmas? Tell us how you celebrate. Sally: You know, we do have the edge on everyone; because we know how to do Christmas. [Laughter] Dennis: What's that?! Barbara: What is that edge? Yes; I want to know. Sally: Because we have Christmas pudding—figgy pudding as Dickens would call it.  Bob: Yes. Dennis: Hold it; hold it! What's that made of?—Christmas pudding? Sally: It's sounds horrid, but it's delicious. I'm going to describe it, but you have to realize it's delicious. Bob: Okay. Sally: It's got currents, raisins—see, your faces already— Barbara: No; so far, so good—I love currents and raisins. Dennis: Yes.  Sally: It's got some liquor in it, but it gets burned away. [Laughter] Dennis: This is why the English like it!! [Laughter] Sally: And you have it with brandy butter. Oh, yes, there's a lot of liquor in it. [Laughter] Dennis: You've got brandy in it! Sally: Is this allowed on your program? Dennis: That's what you have to do with your food in England. [Laughter] 7:00 Sally: It's a merry Christmas. [Laughter] Dennis: I'm sorry—I'm really sorry for that. We've been to England and your food—you got to cross the—  Barbara: —the Channel. Dennis: —the English Channel— Sally: But then, we also wear hats at Christmas—crowns / the paper crowns that come out of Christmas crackers. Now, you're really lost; aren't you? Christmas crackers—I don't even know how to describe them. Barbara: I know what they are. Sally: You pull them, and they bang, and inside is a hat and a present. Then, we drop everything at 3:00—we go and listen to the Queen's speech— Bob: On Christmas Day? Sally: —on Christmas Day. So, wherever you are with your Christmas meal, you stop everything—go and watch the Queen give a speech. She gives this incredible speech. You know, you have to really be reverent. Sometimes, the grandchildren are doing terribly naughty things, and my mother gives them a look. We all have to stand up when the anthem happens. This has happened—  Barbara: —forever. Sally: —forever and ever. Barbara: How long does— Dennis: What does she speak on? I mean— Barbara: That's what I want to know. How long—  Sally: She's amazing, actually. I mean, I'm a huge fan. If you think about how faithful she has been for how long—  Dennis: Oh, yes. Sally: Her whole idea about duty versus—you know—of course, I am a big fan of The Crown. Did you watch The Crown?   Barbara: Oh, yes, we did. It was wonderful. Sally: I'm sorry; I'm going all over the place. Dennis: Oh, yes; we did. That was very good. 8:00 Barbara: We thought it was— Sally: I'm mad on it, because you really believe Claire Foy is Queen.  Dennis: You're mad about it? Sally: Mad, in a British way, is— Barbara: —is crazy! Sally: —crazy. Dennis: I knew what you said! [Laughter] Bob: Here's my question for you— Sally: They are very naughty, these people! [Laughter]  Bob: I want to know, if we could invite you over to everybody's house to tell the Christmas story to our kids and grandkids, would you just pull out your book and read it to them?—or how would you engage a child in the story / the biblical story of Christmas if you were sitting down with them? 9:00 Sally: Well, I like, sometimes, to say, “When does Christmas begin?” and get them to sort of—it's always good to ask them a question; because what you want to do is get them—as they say, you're tuning your audience. Sometimes, I'll resort to pantomime effects—so you'll say/ask them a question; and they'll answer. You say: “I am sorry I can't hear you. Could you say it louder?”—until they are shouting. Then, if you've got parents there as well, you set up parents against the children. That way you have them where you want them.  And then I would say to them, “So, when do you think Christmas begins?” and they'll tell you, “When the star goes in the sky,” “When Jesus is born,” “When…”—whatever they're going to say. Hopefully, they won't / none of them will say: “Actually, it begins even before there were stars in the sky / it begins even before there was anything. Before anything was there, God had a dream in His heart; and Christmas began in that dream,” and start there, because it's not expected.                                                                     I always think the most important thing is to set up the longing and expectation, so that when Christmas day comes, we don't just go, “Oh, it's any old day.” We get the sense that God's people were waiting, for thousands of years, for this and that this was a promise fulfilled. It's not just a sweet story—it's the most incredible thing about God breaking into history. 10:00 Bob: When you think about communicating biblical truth to kids, you want to make sure that the story is in a very broad context, not just an isolated story. Why is that? Sally: I find that's how my heart gets got. If I see it in the big scope / if I see that none of this is just happenstance—it's all a plan and that it started with God's—just the idea that God was planning to bless us before He made us, and He knew it would all go wrong; but He still made us—that's what melts my heart. I think that's the truth in the Bible; isn't it? If you just take one story at a time, they're wonderful; but it's when you see them in the context of the big story and you see that it's a love story, that's when your heart gets changed. Dennis: When you were a little girl, do you remember the time when Christmas, the story of Christmas, grabbed your heart and captured your imagination? Sally: I don't know if I remember exactly that. I knew I loved Christmas and I loved the fact that I knew Jesus was my best friend always, ever since I was four. 11:00 Dennis: You didn't just celebrate Christmas in England, at that point; you went back to— Sally: We were in Africa. Dennis: —Africa. Sally: So, we were having—I don't know if we were still doing hats, and eating Christmas pudding, and all that stuff. We probably went to the beach. I think that's what we did on Christmas Day. Dennis: So what country? Sally: Uganda. First of all, Kampala; and then we moved to Nairobi and Kenya. So, Christmas, for me, was amidst wild animals and jungles, and that kind of—savannahs and stuff— Bob: In a tropical climate, not where there's snow falling. Sally: No. And I do remember—actually, the first thing I do remember, when I came to England, was the first time I saw snow. I thought it was ice cream coming down. [Laughter] Barbara: And you were how old? Sally: I was probably six. Barbara: Oh, amazing. Bob: So, did the biblical story of Christmas compete in your heart with the traditions of Christmas?—with St. Nicholas, with Santa Claus, with all of that? Sally: Yes; I mean, Father Christmas was the big person looming in your life when you're little.  12:00 And you know, I became a Christian when I was four; so I'm sure, the first four years of my life, we were—it was more Santa Claus. But there's something—I know there are big debates about whether you should have Santa Claus. I didn't find it harmful at all. I never thought anything other than it was—I mean, I remember being devastated when I found out he wasn't real; but I soon got over it.  Bob: So you were able to separate that that was fantasy and that the biblical story was history. Sally: Yes; yes. I didn't find that confusing. Bob: Why do you think that was clear to you? Sally: Because I suppose—I'd met Jesus and I knew He was my best friend—I wouldn't want it any other way. There was something lovely about it—you know, the whole excitement. I suppose the excitement of, “He's coming,” and everything like that—that's not so dissimilar to what you—actually, is the truth of Christmas—it's exciting because your rescue is coming, which is much more exciting than, “Santa's coming with presents.” Dennis: And He's coming back! Sally: Yes; yes! Dennis: Not just His first advent— Sally: Exactly. Dennis: —but because the first Christmas occurred, we can look forward to His second advent. 13:00 Sally: Yes; and that is deep in us; isn't it?—that longing for Him to come. Dennis: It really is. Tell us how this book, A Song of the Stars: A Christmas Story, how it captures Christmas to young people. Sally: Well, it's interesting; because that one came because—as I was saying, I was in Africa as a little one. You know, my Christmas was in the wilds of Africa, and there's no snow on the rooftops; but Christmas was coming. I was thinking—we know the story of Bethlehem and how it's so busy and no one noticed Jesus and Mary and Joseph—but I was thinking about the animals and back to my childhood in Africa. I was thinking, “What if the animals knew, and the stars knew, and all the…” because they don't have an argument with their Maker. We're the only ones who have an argument with our Maker. Dennis: [Laughter] That's exactly right. Sally: And they're suffering; aren't they?  Barbara: Right; because of us. Sally: They're suffering because of our sin and the fall, but why wouldn't they have known?  14:00 So I thought, “Well, what if,”—and again, going back to that longing of, “He's coming,”—I thought, “What if, that night, people didn't know because they were too busy; but what if the animals did?”—that's where this book came from. There's a refrain: “It's time. It's time. At last, He's coming!” Barbara: I love that. Bob: Barbara, did you have a hard time, when your kids were little, with the competition between the cultural trappings of Christmas and the spiritual message of Christmas? Barbara: I don't know that we had a hard time as much as we just did—we were very intentional about teaching what Christmas was about. We wanted our kids to understand that it was about Jesus and it was about His birth. We made putting the manger scene up sort of the focal point; but we didn't dismiss Santa, and stockings, and things; because it was fun to pretend and do make-believe. We did all of that; but it was secondary to the real reason for Christmas so that, when our kids found out, I don't think they were devastated. Sally: What was central was the truth. 15:00 Barbara: Right, and I remember being disappointed, when I was a child, finding out that Santa wasn't real; but I don't think our kids were disappointed. I think they always knew that this story about Jesus was what it was really about. This [Santa] was just play—this was fun / this was pretend, and we all enjoyed it—but that wasn't the real message. Dennis: My recollection of Christmas was sprinting to the end, and putting together— Barbara: You mean, as parents?—talking about— Dennis: Yes, as parents. Yes; I just remember getting everything ready—the swing set that I was putting up, in the dark, on Christmas Eve— Bob: You can't get it out and start putting it up until the kids are in bed; right? Barbara: Right; right. Dennis: You can't. And if I had it to do all over again, I think I'd have taken a deep breath; and I think I would have just been more in the moment and not been so frantic about trying to turn the entire Christmas day, especially Christmas morning, into this life-altering seismic experience for our kids. [Laughter] Bob: —a production. Barbara: Yes. 16:00 Dennis: And put a little more effort into enjoying them in the process and celebrating, as Sally is talking about, the real reason for Christmas—celebrating His coming. Bob: A lot of parents will get out their Bible and turn to Luke 2, and they'll read the familiar account of the shepherds, and maybe go to Matthew and read about the wise men; and they will wonder, having read that to their kids: “Did any of that sink in? Did I just read something that their eyes glazed over?” If they want this story to really come alive for their kids, and they're not Sally Lloyd-Jones, what do they do? Sally: Well, they know their children best. I'm just covering all my bases and saying, as a story-teller, what I would do is include all the days leading up to Christmas. Don't rely on just Christmas; because one of the things I think is fun to do is set up a nativity—but don't have Jesus in the nativity, and don't have the shepherds, and don't have the wise men—start introducing them. You know, you could talk about: “There were some shepherds, and they're looking after their sheep. Where shall they be in the house?”— 17:00 —and put them somewhere in the house / same with the wise men. The fun thing about the wise men is—you can have them coming closer and closer to the nativity, every day you move them, until they arrive at the nativity on the—you know— Bob: —on Christmas; yes. Sally: Yes; so you can—I think it's making it interactive and, certainly, not making it a lesson. I think that's my—I would say that: “Don't make it into a lesson. Enjoy the story, because the story is so powerful.” And there are lots of resources. You don't have to—I mean, obviously, reading the biblical account is wonderful; and then read other ways to look at it so that you come at it from different angles. There are all kinds of— Dennis: Yes; that's what I was thinking about. Your book, Song of the Stars, fits in with what Barbara has created for this Christmas—the names of Christ Adorenaments® in stars / His eternal names. Barbara: Well, my dream has been to create something that would help families teach their children who Jesus is, because Christmas is about Jesus. And so I've created this set of ornaments—that each one is a different name of Jesus.  18:00 This year, it is stars; and I've written a piece about following the star—that's what the wise men did. I think—you know, to hitchhike off what we were just saying / you said a few minutes ago—that asking questions is the way to prime your audience. I think, for parents—whether you're hanging the ornaments on the tree about Jesus and His names or whether you're reading the book—the more you can engage with your kids and ask them questions: “Why do you think it's important that we know that Jesus is the Bright and Morning Star?” “What do you think the wise men were thinking when they traveled? How long did it take them to get here?”—make it be something that engages their imagination and their thinking. They are much more likely to, not just remember the story, but want to hear it again; because it was intriguing. Bob: I'd just say, “If you'll sit quiet and listen, we'll have figgy pudding when it's over; okay?” [Laughter] Sally: And they'll run a mile! [Laughter] The other thing I think I've— Dennis: Forget the figgy pudding; let's have some of this British pudding! [Laughter] I thought it was Christmas pudding! Sally: Are you not paying attention, Dennis? 19:00 Dennis: I thought you said Christmas pudding. Sally: Well, no— Barbara: She did say Christmas pudding. Sally: They're both one and the same. Dennis: Oh really?! Sally: Yes. Dennis: I didn't catch that! Sally: Dickens had figgy pudding. Bob: [Singing] “Now bring us our figgy pudding, now bring us our figgy pudding”— Sally: Yes! Dennis: I didn't equate that with Christmas pudding that she described that had all the liquor in it. Sally: I'm sorry about this figgy pudding; it's really bringing the show down. [Laughter]  I was going to mention another great idea, I think, that I've seen people do is—like with Song of the Stars for instance—I'll give that as an example. I do the same thing—I talk about, you know: “The sheep knew,” “The lambs knew, and the Great Shepherd.” So, you could take one day—the Great Shepherd—and then put some beautiful Christmas music on and have your children draw sheep or just spend some time together focusing on sheep. Then, another day, you could talk about the lion knew He was coming—the Lion of Judah. So then, you could draw lions and put on more music.  20:00 I think the more you can engage the different senses and have them creating their own art—and those could become Advent calendars / they could become ornaments— Barbara: I agree. Bob: Trust me, those are things that, 20 years from now, you'll pull out of a file and just delight over. Sally: Yes! Barbara: Absolutely; absolutely. Bob: In fact— Dennis: And in fact, the kids will be fighting over them. Bob: Well, just recently—when our kids were young, our son, David, had a little bit of a flair for art. When he was ten, he did our Christmas card—it was his drawing of the nativity that we sent out as our Christmas card that year—same as when he was eleven.  Well, David's married now. His wife just saw the Christmas cards and she said, “I want those!” And we're going: “No; those belong to Mom and Dad. [Laughter] You have to get him to draw you some new ones.” [Laughter] But it is that kind of a delightful recollection of what Christmas was about, as a child, that you'll look forward to years from now. Sally: Yes. Dennis: Well, regardless—this Christmas, enjoy the moment. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Celebrate the Savior and don't miss the reason for the season. 21:00 Bob: And Sally is not able to come to your home, but her books are; and of course, we have her books in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center—the Christmas story, Song of the Stars; her book, Found, which is the 23rd Psalm for children; and then, of course, The Jesus Storybook Bible. Find out more about what's available to read to your children when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. And while you're there, look at the resources Barbara has been developing for families at Christmas as well, including her new set of Christmas tree ornaments that talk about the eternal names of Jesus. Again, it's all available, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call if you have any questions or if you'd like to order by phone: 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” You know, as we're now a few weeks away from the end of 2017, we've started to look back at how God has been at work through the ministry of FamilyLife Today in the last 12 months:  22:00 Dennis wrote a book called Choosing a Life that Matters that was released earlier this year; we've seen more people attending Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways; we've added new cities, and the average attendance is up at our events. There is more hunger than ever for practical biblical help and hope for marriage and family. We've seen more people coming to FamilyLifeToday.com, our website, getting easier access to articles, and audio, and video—they're getting the help they need when they access our content. And of course, our listeners—we're hearing from new folks, every week, who are listening to FamilyLife Today and telling us how God is using this ministry in profound ways in their marriage and in their family. We're grateful for all that God is doing through this ministry, and all of it has been enabled by a relatively small number of listeners—those of you who believe in the mission of this ministry and who want to see it expanded—want to see more people in your community and around the world helped.  23:00 We're grateful for the partnership that we have with listeners, like you, who help support the ministry of FamilyLife®. Of course, right now, as we're approaching the end of 2017, this is a particularly good time to think about making a donation. Our friend, Michelle Hill, is here to explain why. Hello, Michelle. Michelle: Hey Bob, yes it is a good time to donate, which is what John from Los Altos California did…John called and took advantage of the matching fund?... and his donation was matched dollar for dollar...the reason it's a good time Bob is that the matching is going to continue during December, up to a total of two million dollars! So a big thanks to folks like John and Diane and Leona and almost thirteen hundred other folks who've called and given over two hundred sixty five thousand dollars so far…we really appreciate you! Thanks Bob…see you tomorrow 24:00 Bob: And it is easy to join us. You can do that, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; you can call to donate—1-800-FL-TODAY—or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and the zip code is 72223. Thank you for the update, Michelle; and we'll see you back tomorrow. And we hope you'll join us back tomorrow as well. Sally Lloyd-Jones will be with us again, and we're going to continue to talk about how moms and dads can connect with their kids around biblical truth. I hope you can be with us for that conversation.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com   

Reading to Children (Part 1) - Sally Lloyd-JonesReading to Children (Part 2) - Sally Lloyd-JonesFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Reading to Children Guest:                        Sally Lloyd-Jones                             From the series:       Telling Stories to Children (Day 2 of 2)               Bob: Do you read stories to your children? Do you read Bible stories to them? Sally Lloyd-Jones has a caution for you. Sally: Whenever we read a story and then we say, “Well, what that story's about…”—whatever we put on the other side of “about”—that becomes the only thing that story's about. The minute we do that—it's terrible / it's the worst thing you could ever say. I'm passionate about that because of what that does—is, basically, you've decided what that story is about / you've decided what God might want to say to that child—but what if God wants to say something completely different? Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, December 8th. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine. There is great power in telling good stories. We'll hear from a great story-teller today, Sally Lloyd-Jones. Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Friday edition. We're having a delightful time this week with a delightful friend.  1:00 Before we introduce her again, we're in the final weeks of the year. This is a pretty important, pretty strategic time for us as a ministry. Dennis: It is! I'll tell you something that delights me—I love hearing from listeners. I heard, recently, from a single mom who said our broadcast gives her hope every day to keep on keeping on. Here's one from somebody who struggled through the heartbreak of a divorce and a broken family—she said: “It helped me grow in Christ immensely.” And then one other: “Our marriage was falling apart. I started listening, daily, to FamilyLife Today. The information I received gave me the strength to fight for my marriage.” We have a lot of folks, Bob, who are finding help and hope for their marriage and family. But in order for us to do that, we need listeners to step up and say: “I want to stand with you guys as you guys proclaim the biblical blueprints for a marriage and a family. You're ministering to marriages and families and leaving legacies, all across the nation and all around the globe.”  2:00 Would you stand with us right now? Bob: It's easy to make a yearend contribution. You can do it, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. There's a matching-gift opportunity that's in effect so, when you give your donation, it's going to be doubled—the impact of your giving will be doubled. You'll help us reach more people in 2018 and that's our goal—is to reach more people with practical biblical help and hope. Again, you can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Now, back to our conversation with our guest, Sally Lloyd-Jones. We've been talking about holidays; we've been talking about family, and fun, and about food. In fact, you don't think there can be good Christmas food in Great Britain. When you were over there, you thought all the food was horrible; right? Dennis: “I was trying to find out a way to get across the English Channel to get to France.” [Laughter] Bob: Have you watched The Great British Bake Off? Have you watched that show? Dennis: I have not, Bob. Bob: Have you watched it? Sally: Yes; everyone's obsessed! 3:00 Bob: I know, it's amazing; isn't it? Dennis: Bob, I'm concerned about you—you're watching The British Bake Off! Bob: The Great British Bake Off is a great reality show. Barbara, you would love The Great British Bake Off. Barbara: I would? Okay. Bob: So, make Dennis watch it. Dennis: No; she wouldn't; she does not like to cook! [Laughter] Barbara: I enjoy watching other people cook. Bob: That's exactly the point. Sally: That's perfectly fine with me! Dennis: I do want to welcome Sally Lloyd-Jones back to the broadcast. Welcome back.  Sally: Thank you so much. Dennis: We're thrilled to have you. She was born and raised in Africa, schooled in England, lives in New York City, but will celebrate Christmas back in England— Barbara: —eating figgy pudding—we found out. Dennis: —eating figgy pudding. Bob: That's right! Dennis: She is a great author. She's written a number of best-selling books, including The Jesus Storybook Bible, Song of the Stars, and one we are going to talk about today called, Found, which is the 23rd Psalm. And then a book about a child's identity, and his voice in this world their living in. How many books have you written? Sally: Over 25. I had to count them up the other day. Barbara: Wow! Dennis: Yes? That's amazing!   4:00 Your whole journey started out writing books for children when you were a little girl and you read a book that opened your mind and your heart to a whole new world with books. Sally: Yes! When I was about seven, I thought books were to learn, to be serious, [and] to do at school. I wasn't a child that really thrived at school—I was a bit dreamy. I was given this book called The Complete Nonsense by Edward Lear. In England, a lot of people know that book; but they may not in America—he's not quite so well-known here. But I'd advise everyone to get that book! I'm not getting anything—it sounds like I'm getting referrals—but I'm not! I'm just passionate about it.  The reason I am is that it changed everything. I got this book, and it was the first book I had ever read all the way through—I was seven. I opened up the book and there were these insane, in a good way, crazy limericks about people with long noses and great, long beards and birds that nested in the beards and then he did all the drawings in pen himself. They were completely like just zany!  5:00 It was a revelation. I had no idea you could have so much fun inside a book. It changed everything. From then on, I wrote limericks and illustrations and then inflicted them on my poor friends and family.  The reason I tell that story is that they often say that whatever you were doing when you were maybe six—five or six or seven—before you became self-conscious, and you became what you thought everyone wanted you to be—whatever you loved doing at that point, often clues you in to what should be in your life, whether it's your job or a hobby. For me, it's been proven so true. I was loving this book that was so much fun and having fun inside books; and now, all these years later—it took a long time and a long journey / and very twisty—but here I am, all these years later, basically having fun inside books, and hoping that I can get children to  have fun inside books. Dennis: Inviting them to the party! Sally: Yes! Exactly, and realizing laughter—that's such a gift that God's given us. 6:00 Bob: You had an experience where you were telling a Bible story to a group of children, and it changed your thinking about how to tell stories to them. Sally: Yes; yes. I like to tell this story on myself, because I don't ever want anyone to think I think of myself as an expert. I'm learning every time I read to children. This particular time, I was invited to a Sunday school; and I was reading from The Jesus Storybook Bible—it was probably about like six years ago. I'm very good at getting children out of control—I think that's part of my job, getting them laughing—but I'm not so good at getting them under control.  The Sunday school teacher had wandered away; so I read this whole story, Daniel and the Scary Sleepover. The story was all about Daniel and how he was obedient, even though he might be punished and killed; and that, one day, God was going to send another hero, who would again be willing to do whatever God told Him, no matter what it cost Him—that's how the story ends. While I'm reading this story, there's this young girl—she's probably about six—she's kneeling up. As I'm telling this story, she's so engaged—she's almost trying to get into my lap—she's so engaged. At the end of the story, I panicked; because there was no teacher, I thought, “I have to say something.”   7:00 So, I went: “So, children,”—and I was horrified to hear this come out of my mouth—I said: “So children, what can we learn about how God wants us to behave?” As I said those words, the little girl—she physically slumped / her head bowed, and she slumped. I have never forgotten it, because I think that is a picture of what happens to a child when we make a story into a sermon.  Because I said that question at the end of the story, I basically made that story all about her instead of pointing to Jesus. The minute we do that, we leave the child in despair; because we don't need to be told to do it better. If we could do it better, Jesus never needed to have come. The story of Daniel is there—not to tell us what we should be doing—it's to tell us: “Look, this is what God is going to do. God is going to bring someone, who is not going to be saved at the last minute, who is going to actually die to rescue us; and that's the most incredible story.”  I've learned from that.  8:00 I have never forgotten it; because whenever we read a story; and then we say: “Well, what that story's about…”—whatever we put on the other side of “about” is basically what we lead the child with—that becomes the only thing the story is about. Bob: To say: “The moral of the story is…” Sally: Is the worst thing you could ever say. I'm passionate about that!—it's terrible. Bob: But don't you want kids to get it? Sally: You do; but what that does is—basically, you've decided what that story is about/  you've decided what God might want to say to that child—but what if God wants to say something completely different? It puts too much power in our hands. It would be much better to leave the story, because I believe the story is a seed—it grows when it's left alone. It may take years for us to see the fruit of it. We may not see it growing; but that's what a seed does—it grows in the dark. It's almost, I think, none of our business. If we read a good story to a child, it's between the child and the Holy Spirit what happens with that seed.  9:00 It's not that we shouldn't ask questions; it's just that I think we need to be careful not to reduce the story down into a moral lesson, because there's a place for moral lessons. But stories are so much more powerful, because they can transform your heart. A lesson doesn't usually—like a moral lesson often leaves you feeling like the little girl—she felt in despair; because it was suddenly like: “God isn't pleased with you, because you're not as brave as Daniel,”—that's what I used to think, as a child. People often say: “Well, if you can't ask, ‘What is the moral of the lesson?' what can you ask?”—because, sometimes, you need a question. I always say, “What about if you, with the child”—like it's you are on the same level with the child, as if you're kneeling together before our Heavenly Father; because we are all children before Him—“What if you read the story together?”—coming together, not as you as the teacher, but as you and the child as children of God.  You listen to the story and then you go: “Wow!” and you wonder, aloud, and you say something like—say, with the story of the feeding of the 5,000—instead of saying, “Well, children, what can we learn about sharing our lunch?”—  10:00 —you say, “The boy gave Jesus everything he had. I wonder what would happen if we gave Jesus everything we have?” and you leave it open. Suddenly, that becomes completely open; and the child's imagination can soar with that. That's a question I think that's a good thing to ask; but it's not trying to teach a lesson. Bob: Part of what you do in that question is—you put the focus on what God can do— Sally: Yes! Bob: —rather than what we're supposed to do. Sally: Amen, because then there's hope. We need to give children hope; don't we? They obviously need guidance, and there's a place for teaching and rules. I just think the story time is sacrosanct. We should come together, before our Heavenly Father, and wonder together. Bob: So when you approach writing a story like, Baby Wren and the Great Gift, which is not overtly a Christian story / no Bible verses in it—do you approach that differently than when you are writing something for The Jesus Storybook Bible? 11:00 Sally: The helpful thing about The Jesus Storybook Bible is the plot‘s already worked out. [Laughter] Bob: The story's already there; yes. Sally: So with Baby Wren, I try and “be someone on whom nothing is lost.” I think Henry James said that—I may have got that wrong—“be someone on whom nothing is lost.” I'm always open; and that book—what I have learned with books is—an idea will come from anywhere; but when it comes and it hits me in a poignant way, or it makes me laugh, or does something with my heart, I've learned to listen; because I realize, “Okay; I think that's God working to show me there's something here that I need to follow.”   I don't always know what the story is—but with Baby Wren and the Great Gift, the thing that struck me was—I was in Texas at Laity Lodge. There was this little wren called a canyon wren. Literally, one time, I was just hearing this huge song; and I said, “What on earth is that?” And they said: “Oh, that's the canyon wren. You never see it—it's too tiny to notice—and yet, look at its great song.”  12:00 That idea started playing in my head. I started thinking: “That's like a child. A child is only small, and they have so many insecurities; and where do they belong in the big world?”—that's where the book came from. That wasn't really me setting out with a message—it was me responding to a clue I was given and then following clues.  That's how I think the books come. I trust the Lord with that; because, if the joy and redemption are at the center of my life, they are going to be in my books—I won't be able to help it. In a way, that frees me to trust the Lord—that my passion is to bless children with the truth and with hope. That can come in the form of pre-evangelistic—it can be like Emily Dickinson said, “Tell all of the truth, but tell it slant.”  The thing about the story is—you're not coming at it, head on, like you are with The Jesus Storybook Bible—but even there, it's a story. Every time you tell a story, what happens is—it captures your heart. It doesn't come at you with rules and lessons; it comes around the side and it captures your heart. I just basically trust that, “If something moves me, that's something I need to listen to.” 13:00 Dennis: I think you're exhorting us, as adults, as we tell stories to kids, “Let's leave room for imagination.”  Sally: Yes; that's really well-put. Dennis: Comment, if you would, on your children's book called Found. Bob: You said that's an edible book; right? Sally: Yes! It's The Jesus Storybook Bible—the edible version. [Laughter] Basically, it's a padded board book. The board book is one of those books that toddlers cannot rip.  Barbara: They can chew on. Sally: They can chew on and not destroy—  Dennis: Oh! Okay. Sally: —because, when you are a baby, you don't read them; you eat them. Dennis: You are going all the way through the 23rd Psalm and just unpacking it, verse by verse.  Sally: Yes; it's the same version as in The Jesus Storybook Bible. We re-illustrated it—we have given it like 12 spreads, I think. If you put, individually, one line on a page and then you illustrate it, you give space to the whole psalm. Jago has done the most incredible job of—what we talk about in picture books, you have to have heart—you have to have it in the text, and you have to have it in the art.  14:00 That's an indefinable thing; but you know when you haven't got it, and you know when you get it. Dennis: Well, you've got it; because here's the—I guess, almost halfway through the book—“…even when I walk through the dark, scary, lonely places…”—there's a lonely lamb in a valley with a rainstorm. Barbara: That's my favorite spread. Dennis: It is mine too. Barbara: Because that little lamb—it's just so representative of, not just children, but all of us.  Sally: Yes. Barbara: He looks so alone, and I think that just captures what we all feel that the 23rd Psalm speaks to. Sally: You know what's interesting? It's children's favorite spread, as well. Barbara: Oh, is it? Sally: They will always go there no matter how tiny they are. I think that's fascinating; because, again, we try and—it's appropriate to protect children—but we have to be sure that we are equipping them as well. Little ones know that not everything is right out there. Whether or not we're telling them, they know—so the more that you give them a safe place—  15:00 —that's why I think they love that spread, because they're looking at something scary, which they know exists; but they are doing it with you, they're doing it with the lamb, and together you're going to get through this story. It's very important that we let them look at the dark, not just the light, obviously, in an age-appropriate way; but I think that's why it's powerful to them. Dennis: Yes; and then the next page, of course, it says, “I won't be afraid, because my Shepherd knows where I am.” Sally: And he's panned out; hasn't he?  He's panned out, and you see that he wasn't alone—the shepherd was running. The look on the shepherd's face—again, heart—it's just so—it's poignant to me. When I saw the illustrations, I was just blown away. Dennis: Sally, I want to ask you for a book that you've never written / a book that has never been illustrated, but it's a story that is a book in your mind that you love to tell children. Bob: Are you looking for a scoop here? You trying to get— Sally: Yes; I mean, gosh! [Laughter] Yes; I know he's trying! He's got a notebook—I can see it!—and a recorder. [Laughter] Dennis: I've already got the publisher lined up, fellas! [Laughter]  16:00 No; I just have to believe that you've got a few tucked away that you've never put on parchment—it's just a favorite of yours. I'd be interested if you wouldn't mind telling it to our audience here. Sally: Oh my; I've gone completely blank.  Dennis: Have you?! Sally: Yes; performance anxiety, you see. [Laughter] I need to skip to the loo. Maybe I'll think about it. Dennis: Okay! We can come back at the end of the broadcast, and you can tell a story. Sally: Yes; okay; okay. Bob: Barbara, as you look at books and their illustrations, you recognize the power that comes. I mean, Sally's prose is beautiful prose; but let's be honest—the book, Found, is what?—maybe 40 words?—maybe 50 words?—and well-chosen words. The illustrations are what give the words a context and a texture that bring it alive. Barbara: I always looked for books for my kids that had beautiful illustrations. To me, that was as important as the story—  Sally: Oh, dear; yes. Barbara: —because I loved the illustrations as much as my kids did.  17:00 It allowed the story to come alive at a level that the words couldn't do on their own—  Sally: No. Barbara: —because the illustrations support it / they give it life. They make it three-dimensional. As you said, with that center spread of the rainstorm, it takes you to that place that the words alone can't do.  Sally: Yes; that's true. Barbara: I just think illustrations are powerful in books. Sally: Yes! I love hearing that. I feel the same way. I also think design—you know, like the cover—so much goes into a picture book. What you said is so true; because a picture book is a story told in two languages, word and image. The best picture books are when, as a publisher of mine said: “One plus one equals more than two. Neither of them would work without each other.” Also, what you want is that it should look as if the person, who illustrated it, wrote it; and the person who wrote it, illustrated it—they should have the same voice. Barbara: They both have a message too. The words alone don't say what the pictures alone say. They work together so that the whole thing is a much greater package, as you were explaining.  18:00 And it's a gift. When you get a book like that, you feel like it's a treasure. Your anticipation is greater when you get a— Sally: It's true, because it's beautiful. Barbara: —beautiful book than [when] you just get a book.  Sally: Another thing I'm passionate about is—beauty honors God—  Barbara: Absolutely! Sally: —when we do something beautiful. I also think it reaches everyone—beauty calls to everyone. Our job is to be as excellent as we can be; because beauty honors Him, and it also—it just takes away the obstacles. Like I was describing with the design: “If it's really well-designed, there's no obstacle to the story.” I think my job is always to get out of the way and let the story through. If you are a good designer, get out of the way and let the story through; and if you're an illustrator...  Bob: At what age do kids move beyond you? Sally: Never! I collect picture books, and I never grow out of them. They're an art form that—well, C.S. Lewis said it; didn't he?—when he dedicated—   Barbara: He did! I was just thinking about his— Sally: Yes! You probably remember it better, but I can't remember exactly the words. 19:00 Barbara: I don't remember exactly how he said it either.  Sally: He dedicated it to his—to Lucy—he said, “You're too old for fairy tales, but you'll grow up and become young enough,”—or something like that. Barbara: He also said something about “A book that's good for children is good for adults,”—if it's good enough for them, then it should speak to all ages. Sally: Like “There is no book that's only for children,”—is what he said—“only good for children; because, if it's not good enough for children, it's not”—something—we're really massacring this quote; aren't we?! [Laughter] Barbara: I know! That is the idea—I've always loved that quote. Bob: Have you ever had a desire to write young adult fiction?—or to write a novel?  Sally: Well, sometimes, I think about that; but then I think I'm already reaching adults in the best way, by reaching children. Bob: Yes. Sally: I just love the idea that they—you know, like Found, or Baby Wren, or Song of the Stars—they're books designed to read together; and the sound of the language—C.S. Lewis, again, said, “You should write for the ear as well as the eye.” Barbara: Right. Bob: And most of the books on my bookshelf have been read once, if they've been read at all. 20:00 Sally: Isn't that the truth? There, again—you see? Bob: But children's books?  Sally: Children's books— Barbara: —over and over. Bob: —books get read. I mean, we could almost recite Goodnight, Moon; can't we? Sally: Oh; I mean, it's a genius book; and it's so deceptively simple; isn't it? Bob: Yes; yes. Dennis: It is! So, I've stalled here for you. Sally: Oh, dear; you did, and I still haven't got that story. Well, I think the thing is—my stories—I may have them; but they are sort of, again, a bit like seeds. I never quite know what they are—I have to keep following them. I have lots in process but not—I don't know—if I've got one ready to tell, I usually do it— Barbara: So you have lots of ideas, but they haven't been developed yet.  Sally: Yes; like picture books—I can have an idea that can sort of—I was going to say “vegetate”—that's not the right word; is it? Barbara: —germinate. [Laughter] Sally: —germinate / vegetate doesn't sound nice—germinate—thank you!—for several years. I find that's the best way; because, again, following clues—I follow clues.  Sometimes—I'm working on a middle-grade novel; but I—you know, sometimes, you don't actually want to talk about the book until it's done; because, if you talk about it, you've kind of told the story and you take away the energy you need to finish it.  21:00 So, that's a good excuse; isn't it? [Laughter] Dennis: It really is!  Sally: You can't say anything now. Barbara: It works; it works! Dennis: I just hope you‘ll come back,  Sally: I'd love to come back; it's always so fun! Dennis: So, you just need to know—Bob is a “foodie.” So, next time you come back, bring bread crumbs and— Sally and Barbara: —figgy pudding. Dennis: —figgy pudding! Sally: Well, I might send you a figgy pudding. Bob: I'm waiting for it; yes. Sally: No; he looks like it's a threat! [Laughter] I might send it to you, and you might have to eat it on air! Bob: I will—I will eat your figgy pudding. Barbara: If you send it, we will have to taste it for sure, after all of that! Sally: Okay. Bob: Then, I'll let you know whether to send me anymore after that. [Laughter] Dennis: That's right! I will—if I eat it, and I like it—I will repent of all my—not all—but some of my comments about English food. [Laughter] Sally: I think you're just really jealous of England really; aren't you? Dennis: Oh, I do love England!  Barbara: We really do love England. Dennis: I do! We had a delightful time. Sally: You're right. English food—you don't really see English food restaurants. Although, you do in New York—fish ‘n chips / Toad in the Hole! Now, I'm really confusing you! [Laughter]  Dennis: No; no. I know—[Laughter] 22:00 Bob: By the way, we have none of that in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center; but we do have some of Sally's books. Dennis: Toad in the hole? We've got some of that; don't we? Bob: It's not in the FamilyLife Today Resource Center. [Laughter] You can go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com to find out more about the books that Sally has written for children: the Christmas story—Song of the Stars; the 23rd Psalm book called Found; and of course, The Jesus Storybook Bible. We've got all of those available, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order at 1-800- FL-TODAY.  We've also got the resources Barbara Rainey has worked on for the holiday season for families, including her new set of Christmas tree ornaments that reflect the Eternal Names of Jesus. Find out more about those when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Or call if you have any questions: 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” 23:00 Now, as Dennis mentioned earlier, this is a significant time of year for this ministry. We're hoping to hear from listeners to take advantage of a matching-gift opportunity that has been made available to us. Our friend, Michelle Hill, who is the host of FamilyLife This Week, is keeping us up to date this month on all that's going on with the matching gift. Hi, Michelle! 23:21 Michelle:  Hi Bob J yeah, what's happened is pretty simple…and very generous. Some friends of FamilyLife offered to match every donation in December, so yesterday…when Leona from Pennsylvania called in? Our friends matched Leona's gift, dollar for dollar! Simple! Your gifts are being matched all December, up to a total of two million dollars, and Bob? As of today, our listeners have given just over three hundred six thousand dollars…which is REALLY encouraging! Bob: It is indeed! You can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. 24:00 And we hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together in your local church this weekend, and I hope you can join us back on Monday. John Stonestreet will be here to talk about how we can raise children in a culture that does not always support what we believe. Hope you can be with us as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry.Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

Listen to Part 1Listen to Part 2Listen to Part 3Listen to Part 4FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Out of the Depths Day 1 of 4 Guest:                            Ed Harrell From the Series:         The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis________________________________________________________________ Bob:                Sixty years ago this week on the night of July 30, 1945, just weeks before the end of World War II, a Japanese submarine launched torpedoes that would sink the USS Indianapolis.  Marine Ed Harrell was on board that night. Ed:                  When I actually left the ship, and there I prayed that somehow the Lord would see me through what lie ahead, and yet I had the foggiest idea that I'm going to be out there for four-and-a-half days.  There's times when you pray, and there's times when you pray, and there is a difference. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, August 1st.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  Of the nearly 1,200 men who were onboard the Indianapolis on that night only 317 survived.  Ed Harrell was one of the survivors, and we'll hear his story today.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Monday edition.  Dennis? Dennis:          Bob, I want you to imagine with me a pretty dramatic scene.  Just consider yourself being 20 years old, you're a Marine, you're tough, you're physically fit, but you're alone, you're in the ocean, you've just lost your ship, and you and about 80 others are floating in the middle of the night in the ocean in lifejackets.  We're going to hear a story – one of the most compelling stories I think I've ever heard from a gentleman who joins us on FamilyLife Today – one of the survivors of the USS Indianapolis. Bob:                A man who doesn't have to imagine what you just described because he lived through it. Dennis:          That's exactly right.  Ed Harrell joins us on FamilyLife Today.  Welcome to the broadcast, Ed. Ed:                  Thank you so much.  It's a delight to be with you. Dennis:          Ed is not only a survivor, but he was a businessman for 38 years.  He's served as a member of the board of trustees at Moody Bible Institute, a great ministry.  He and his wife Ola, who have been married since 1947 – that's a lot of years, that's a lot of years, live in Paris, Tennessee.  They have two children, eight grandchildren, and four great-grandchildren. Ed:                  That's right. Dennis:          You've lived quite a life, Ed, but you're one of the few, one of the few survivors of that tragedy.  Take us back, first of all, to when you signed up.  Why in the world did you sign up to be a Marine?  It was 1943, is that right? Ed:                  That's right, 1943.  I don't know that I can even know why I really did at the time, but I knew that the war was getting pretty close to home, it sounded to me.  In fact, when I heard that the Japanese and the American forces were having quite a battle at Midway, I was thinking that Midway was maybe between San Francisco and Hawaii, and so I thought, you know, they're getting pretty close to America, so, actually, I had just finished my junior year in high school, and I volunteered then for the Marine Corps. Bob:                You were 17, 18 years old? Ed:                  I was 18 when I – I actually became a Marine when I was 18. Bob:                You know, Ed, my son is a junior in high school, and the thought of my son saying, "I'm going to sign up to be a Marine in the middle of this kind of conflict, as a parent, I'm not sure I'd endorse that plan.  Were your parents behind it? Ed:                  Yes, I think they pretty much agreed.  Dad pretty much agreed.  They didn't necessarily want to see me leave, but they knew, too, the little Silvertone radio that we had was telling us quite a bit what was happening in the Pacific, and I didn't have much problem convincing them that I wanted to go.  In fact, I have two grandsons in the Marine Corps today. Dennis:          Do you remember that time when you said goodbye to your dad? Ed:                  I do.  My dad was 37 or 39 years old, and I thought he was an old man then, but I told him goodbye at the bus station. Dennis:          Did you hug? Ed:                  Yes, yes, we did. Dennis:          Were there tears? Ed:                  There were some tears, there were some tears. Dennis:          What did he say to you? Ed:                  I don't know that I can remember what he said, but I'm sure that the advice that he gave me, he was a fine Christian man, and I'm sure it was some good, solid advice that he was giving me. Bob:                Why the Marines?  Why did you pick them instead of the Army or the Navy or the Air Force? Ed:                  I wondered sometimes why if I picked the wrong one, but I really don't know.  I even considered, after I got in the Marine Corps, that I would be a paratrooper.  After I got through sea school, then they said – after I got through boot camp, they said, "You're going to sea school," and I didn't know what that meant, either, but I went through sea school, and then they said, "You're going aboard a large combatant ship," and so I waited, then, until the Indianapolis was in port and caught it at San Francisco. Dennis:          Before you left to join the Marines, you made another decision that was a life-altering decision. Ed:                  Yes, I did.  Yes, I did.  On the 1st of August, 1943, already a Marine and yet hadn't shown up even for my boot camp, I went to church on that Lord's Day morning, and seeming the Lord was saying to me, "Your last chance, your last chance," and the preacher preached a message, and he gave an invitation, he pronounced the benediction, and I sat there, I knew that my heart was not right with the Lord, and knowing that I was going into combat soon that I had to get things right with the Lord.  I know the pastor came back and sat down by me there.  Everyone else had left the building except two people – one was my wife later to be, and my mother-in-law later to be, and they were back in the back of the building there praying, and the pastor turned to a Scripture, Acts 16:31, which simply says, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved."  He said, "Ed, do you believe that?" Well, I was brought up in a Christian home and Sunday school, church all the time, but really never trusted the Lord as my own personal Savior.  And so he goes over that a time or two, and he said, "Ed, God who cannot lie, is making you a promise, and He simply says believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, the finished work of Christ on the cross for you, and He promises to save you."  And then he would look at me and said, "Do you believe that?"  And I said, "Yes, I believe that," and he said, "But does the Lord save you?"  "No."  Well, he went over it a time or two and there, in the quietness of that little pew there in the church, I trusted the Lord Jesus Christ as my personal Savior.                         So later now, when I'm getting into the story of the actual sinking of the ship, I could really look back and rely on the faith and trust that I had in the Lord to care for me, even there in the water those days. Dennis:          Yeah, in fact, there's a line in your book, which basically says this – "The same Jesus Christ who became my Savior was now going to be the same Jesus Christ who saved my life." Ed:                  That's right.  When I actually left the ship, you know, abandoned the ship, I trusted the same Lord to take care of me there as I stepped over the railing and stepped into the water, and brought up in a Christ home and knew some Scripture.  But the Lord brought to mind there as I was about to abandon ship and seeing many of the boys actually jumping on each other in a desperate rush to get off the ship, and I hung onto that rail for a little while, and I prayed and oftentime I say when I give talks is that there's times when you pray, and there's times when you pray, and there is a difference.  And there I prayed that somehow the Lord would see me through what lie ahead, and yet I had the foggiest idea that I'm going to be out there for four-and-a-half days.                         But here from memory of His Word that he brought to mind – "Peace I give unto you not as the world give unto you, let not your heart to be troubled.  Don't be afraid."  And yet I'm scared to death.  And as I left the ship, then I left with the assurance I felt – God didn't speak to me in any audible form in any way, but just the assurance that I had from repeating His Word back to my heart, I knew that He was going to care for me. Dennis:          You did end up joining the Marines then, and you boarded the USS Indianapolis in San Francisco. Ed:                  In San Francisco. Dennis:          At that point, you had not been to war, you had not been in any battles, but that was soon to change, wasn't it? Ed:                  That's right.  Of course, to get aboard a large combatant ship like that, you know, that ship, you know, was 610 feet, 8 3/4 inches, and four or five stories high, and that's going to be my home, you know, for a time.  And then after I got aboard, then to see all those big guns that I'm going to have to learn how to fire those things, and I think I say in my book the biggest gun that I'd ever fired was a double-barreled shotgun, and yet here I'm going to be firing five-inch guns and 40 millimeter guns, so I'll be trained to do those things.                         Then I was at Saipan – actually, I was at Enewetak and Kwajalein Islands there in the Marshalls, then the first, really, combat was at Saipan then at Tinian and at Guam.  The sea battle of the Philippine Seas, that was at Palau, at Iwo Jima, at Okinawa, and later three air strikes on Tokyo and then, lastly, I was Marine guard that guarded the two atomic bomb – components of the bombs that we took over to our B-29 base on the island of Tinian. Bob:                And you didn't know, when you got on board the Indianapolis in San Francisco Harbor, you didn't know what else was on board with you.  You didn't know that you had … Ed:                  We did not know. Bob:                … the two atomic bombs that were going to be dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Ed:                  We knew it was top-secret cargo.  We understood, even, that the captain of the ship didn't know what we had; that he had been told that what he had, we needed to get it to the forward area – that every hour would save lives, and I was a guard that guarded – or, actually, I was a corporal of the guard, and I stationed guards both on the two places that we had the components of the bomb. Bob:                San Francisco to Tinian – how long a trip is that in the water? Ed:                  We made a record speed run.  We traveled those 5,400 or so miles in 10 days. Bob:                Wow. Ed:                  So, can you imagine a heavy cruiser traveling, like, 32 miles an hour across the Pacific?  So we made a record speed run to Tinian Island and got rid of our cargo. Dennis:          And you got rid of the cargo, made the turn, and you were to participate with another ship? Ed:                  We received orders at CENPAC there in Guam, the Central Pacific Command, to proceed to the Philippines, but we were to – yes, we were to join up with the USS Idaho, I think, three days later, to make a gun re-practice as we went into the Philippines, because the main invasion of Japan was to take place in November of '45. Dennis:          We're not going to go into the detail that surrounds, really, a great controversy about the USS Indianapolis, because some information was withheld about the enemy being in the waters – enemy subs – and you guys sailed into harm's way without realizing it.  But you were in the process of making your way to join up with the USS Idaho, and it was really an uneventful trip.  You weren't even going all that fast at that point, right? Ed:                  As I mentioned, we had traveled 32 knots going into Tinian, and then when we received orders then to go on to the Philippines, Captain McVay requested, or they gave him permission to travel only at 17 knots, to slow down, because we had nearly burned the motors up, you know, getting the cargo over.  So we had slowed back to 17 knots going on to the Philippines. Dennis:          You were one day away from connecting with the USS Idaho, and was it the middle of the night? Ed:                  Well, we were to have met them the next day in the daytime, but we encountered Commander Hoshimoto at about five minutes after midnight on the night of July 30, 1945. Bob:                Now, where were you when that happened?  Were you asleep in your bunk? Ed:                  No, the Indianapolis was a pretty modern ship, but we did not have air-conditioning, and in order to get any sleep at night, you went topside.  So I was on watch 'til 12:00.  At 12:00 I went to my locker, and I got my blanket, and I went topside, and I went up under the barrels of number 1 turret, and I took off my shoes and used kind of the arch of my shoe as a pillow, and I rolled up in my blanket, and it was about five minutes or so after midnight that the first explosion, we took the first torpedo.  And about as long as it would take Commander Hoshimoto to say, "Fire one, fire two," and he fired six, but two of them hit us, and the first one cut the bow of the ship off.  If you could see the picture of the ship, you could see that those barrels on number 1 turret, forward big 8-inch guns, they're about 18 feet long, and I'm sleeping right down on the deck under the barrels of those guns and looking forward of me, maybe 25, 30 feet or so, the bow of the ship is cut off – about 50 feet.  Some said 65 feet, but I don't think it was that much.  I think it was more of a 40 feet or so.  The bow of the ship was cut off, so we became a funnel, then, as we were moving through the water, and then the second explosion then was aft of me, nearly midship and close to the marine compartment, and it made a big gaping hole.                         And, of course, since we had no air conditioning, we were traveling at a – you might say, at an open condition in that all of our bulkheads down below were open, and they had to be open or else we would suffocate without air conditioning.  So that was a death blow, likewise, because as we were moving forward in the water, all of that water … Dennis:          It just poured in the front. Ed:                  It was rushing in, and even before I could get back to my emergency station, which was back at midship, the bow of the ship is already under.  I mean, the deck of the bow of the ship, like, the first 100 yards or so, is already under. Dennis:          Was there still light on the ship at this point, or had the torpedoes knocked out the electricity. Ed:                  All the electricity was knocked out. Dennis:          So you're in the middle of the night … Ed:                  But we had light in that there was an inferno below decks.  They say that number 2 turret took a hit, and the magazine in number 2 turret had exploded and came through all the way up so that it was just a big fire, a big blaze, coming up through there.  And then most other places below decks forward of midship was an inferno.  And so you get a certain amount of light, you know, from that. Dennis:          You said when the torpedoes hit, and the boat blew up, blew the front end off, that there was a huge amount of water that went up in the air, and it drenched you and ultimately kept you from burning up? Ed:                  I think two things – number one, of course, I believe in the providence of God, number one.  I had the blanket around me, and that protected me, no doubt, maybe from much of the blast of the fire at the first explosion, and then all of the water, then, from that first explosion that went up in the air, I don't know I could imagine 50 to 100 feet plus, then all of that coming back down.  Well, I was drenched, you know, with all the water, as it came back down, and that kind of protected me somewhat, I'm sure, from much of the flash burn that many were getting. Bob:                Ed, when something like that happens, it's disorienting at first.  You're thinking, "Did something explode down in the engine room," you're kind of trying to get your bearings.  How long do you think it was before you realized, "We're under attack, we've been hit," and you caught a sense of what was going on? Ed:                  I think immediately when we were hit, I wondered, "We aren't firing at anyone," and then just those three explosions, and no one now is firing back at us.  So we had to have either hit a mine or we had to have been hit by a torpedo.  And then realizing nearly immediately that forward part of the ship was cut off, and I could hear the bulkheads breaking down below and they, to me, were a death blow.  You could imagine, you know, with all that water, with the ship still moving 17 knots or so, and the funnel there coming – all of the water coming in, and the bulkheads breaking, you knew that the ship was doomed, and as I began to make my way, then, back to my emergency station, which was back to midship, and there were those that were coming from internally coming out, and that part of the ship, really, was kind of the officers' quarters up there. Many of those were in the flash burns, and as they came out, literally, flesh was hanging from their face and from their arms, and they were in panic and begging for someone to give them some help.  But, you know, that's not my responsibility, and I have to make my way to my emergency station, which was on the quarterdeck.  And, of course, when I get to the quarterdeck, then, I'm realizing that the ship is already under forward part, and there's no question that it's sinking.  So as word actually came to abandon ship, I had made my way to the port side, and there on the quarterdeck, there's a steel cable, a rail, as we call it, and I got ahold of the rail, and I hung on there and said my prayer, you know, before I actually stepped over the rail and stepped about two big, long steps and jumped into the water feet first. My kapok jacket then came up over my head.  If you could visualize that the deck of the ship now is listing so that you step over, and you walk down the keel of the ship, walk down the side of ship, and so I could have nearly walked to the water, but I walked down closer to the water, and then jumped in feet first and then began to come up and push that oil back that was on the water and then to try to get my head up above that, and then swam away from the ship about maybe 50 yards, and then we began to congregate, you know, in little groups.  The ship had still been moving, so boys had been getting off maybe for two or three or four minutes.  I actually watched the ship as she went under. Bob:                Did you think this was it for you? Ed:                  I wondered, and yet I really felt – and I don't say this in any boasting way of any kind, but I really had the assurance that somehow, some way, that I would make it. Dennis:          You felt like God … Ed:                  I felt assurance that – "Don't be afraid, don't be afraid.  I'm with you," and I think when you hear all of my story, you'll see the various times that He came to my assurance that "I'm still with you," all the way through – the different things that happened for the next three days. Bob:                Yes, and we're going to hear the rest of your story over the next couple of days.  Of course, it is told in the book that you've written called "Out of the Depths," which is a compelling story of God's faithfulness in the midst of remarkable adversity, and I want to encourage our listeners, you can get a copy of the book from us when you contact us here at FamilyLife.                           Go to our website at FamilyLife.com.  Down at the bottom of the screen there's a button there that says, "Go."  You click on that button, it will take you right to a page where you can find information about ordering Ed's book.  Again, it's called "Out of the Depths."  We also have our conversation this week with Ed Harrell available on CD.                           We also have a book that our friend, Chip Ingram, has written that is a reflection on pivotal chapters from the Psalms where David experienced the same thing that you've talked about, Ed, which is the presence of God in the midst of trial and adversity.  He's written a book called "I Am With You Always."  It's a book that reminds us that the Lord is faithful to hear the cry of our heart; that He is there for us in times of great trial like you experienced.                          In fact, any of our listeners who wanted to get your book and Chip's book together, we'd send them the CD that has our conversation with you.  We'd send it along at no additional cost.  Again, go to our website, FamilyLife.com, click the "Go" button at the bottom of the screen.  That will take you right to the page where there is more information.  Or call 1-800-FLTODAY.  That's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, and we've got folks on our team who will be happy to let you know how you can have these resources sent to you.                         You know, speaking of resources, Dennis, one of the most requested resources we've had in our FamilyLife Resource Center this year has been two CDs from a conversation you and I had with Shaunti Feldhahn.  She wrote a book called "For Women Only."  It was based on the research she had done, conversations with more than 1,000 men about the deepest needs and the deepest longing in men's hearts.  And that conversation really resonated with a number of our listeners.  This month we are making that two-CD set available to any of our listeners who would contact us in August to make a donation of any amount to the ministry of FamilyLife Today.                         It's our way of saying thank you for helping to support this ministry.  We are listener-support, and it's your donations that keep us on the air in this city and in cities all across the country.  So this month, if you can go online to make a donation or call 1-800-FLTODAY to make a donation, just mention that you'd like the CD set for women.  In fact, if you're donating online, when you get to the keycode box just type in "CD," those two letters, and we'll know that you want to have these CDs sent to you.                         Again, our website is FamilyLife.com or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY to make a donation, and we appreciate you standing with this ministry financially.                         Well, tomorrow we're going to begin to hear the story of how Ed Harrell and others survived for four days afloat in the Pacific.  I hope our listeners can be back with us for that.                         I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  ________________________________________________________________ We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?         Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved.       www.FamilyLife.com

Listen to Part 1Listen to Part 2Listen to Part 3Listen to Part 4 FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Out of the Depths Day 2 of 4 Guest:                           Ed Harrell From the Series:         Mercy at Sea________________________________________________________________ Bob:                Sixty years ago this week, Ed Harrell was afloat in the Pacific.  His ship, the cruiser USS Indianapolis, had been sunk by Japanese torpedoes.  Many of the crew members had not escaped. Those who had, found themselves battling for their lives on the open seas with no help in sight.  What was in sight were sharks. Ed:                  You can't imagine, and I can't explain, you know, the feeling that you have.  You know that at any moment that the shark could get you, and you wonder, you know, am I going to be next?  You know, you pray and you pray more, and you pour your heart out to the Lord, and just hope and pray that somehow, some way, that He will be faithful to the promise that you feel that He's made to you and that you'll be able to endure. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, August 2nd.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll hear a powerful story today of courage and faith as we speak with one of the survivors of the USS Indianapolis.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.  I somehow missed this in my study of U.S. history.  I don't know that I ever was aware that on the night of July 30, 1945, just weeks before the end of World War II, a Japanese submarine, I-58, launched a spread of torpedoes at the USS Indianapolis in the Pacific Theater. Two of those torpedoes found their mark and, in less than 15 minutes, this cruiser sank in the Marianas, and there were almost 1,200 men on board the ship.  More than 800 of those men did not survive the attack or the days that followed that attack.  And I don't know, Dennis, that I'd ever heard about that battle or about the sinking of the ship, but it's truly a compelling story, especially when you consider that some 300 men were rescued days later. Dennis:          Yes, and we have one of those men who was rescued back with us.  Ed Harrell joins us again on FamilyLife Today.  Ed, welcome back. Ed:                  Thank you. Dennis:          I want to express my appreciation for you, as a veteran, just for serving our nation and also for coming here on our broadcast and telling the story, a dramatic story, of what has to be one of the most phenomenal survival stories, really, Bob, in all of the World War II and maybe in the history of the United States.  I mean, what you had to endure and go through.  But we'll get to that in just a moment.                          Ed is a businessman, was on the board of trustees of Moody Bible for a number of years.  He and his wife Ola [ph] have a couple of children and a number of grandchildren and great-grandchildren, and he is a survivor of the USS Indianapolis.  Ed, I want you to take our listeners back, because you shared earlier the story of standing on the deck of this boat – this great, massive boat, over 600 feet long, at midnight as it's sinking in less than 15 minutes.  What were you hearing at that moment?  It's pitch black, there's a little bit of light from the fires that are burning midship, but what was the sound like?  Was it of screams of people?  Were there explosions? Ed:                  There were still explosions going on for a good while.  In fact, when the ship actually went under there were still explosions that were taking place below deck.  I don't know that I'm waiting to listen to see what might be taking place.  I am eager to get off, and I make my way, then, to the port side and hung onto that rail and said my prayer before I entered into the water, and I knew, beyond any shadow of doubt, that the Lord had, through the Spirit, was bearing witness with my spirit that He was with me and that I would make it, somehow, some way.                           I know, later on, when I was interviewed, they asked me, "What were you thinking out there?  Did you think that you were going to make it?"  And I said, "I thought of the 30-day leave that I would get for being a survivor and be able to go home," because I hadn't been home for a good while, and I was thinking about going home, frankly. Bob:                You had one what you've described as a kapok jacket, a life preserver, is that what that was? Ed:                  That's right. Bob:                And I guess I'm wondering – were there lifeboats on board the ship?  Were there inflatable rafts?  Was it "man the lifeboats?" Ed:                  No word of that kind was given.  In fact, you didn't have time, they didn't have time.  I could look up and see life rafts hanging, and those kapok jackets hanging, but no word was given to cut those loose, and I never saw a life raft.  There were floater nets, likewise, that later floated up, and they spread them out, and boys could somewhat stand in those – not completely, but at least it would keep the sharks from coming up through after them.  And then the life rafts, then, some of those floated loose, but I never saw a raft, I never saw one in the water the whole time. Dennis:          That first moment you hit the water, you burst through the surface, you got clear of the oil so you could breathe.  Did you begin swimming away from the sinking ship at that point?  I mean, again, to those of us who are laymen, a ship going down is supposed to create some kind of vacuum or – and suck survivors back down after it.  Did that occur? Ed:                  That was my thinking, and I was I a rush – not necessarily a good swimmer, but I was in a rush to get away from the ship, and I got away from it maybe 50 yards, then, to turn, then, to watch it as it sank.  I could still hear some explosions as it was going under.  Then, actually, as the ship went under, and all of that water that was in the bow, you know, you can imagine the ship is going down and all the water in there, as it's pushing up through the ship, the ship is giving a real – I call it kind of a whissing sound in that that area is pushing out, and a tremendous amount of air is coming out of the ship as it went under, and I could hear that.  But that was about – no suction.  Different ones claim that they actually were pulled under and some with kapok jackets were pulled under, and then the kapok jacket then pulled them back up.  So it wasn't the suction that I had been led to believe that would be the case in such a sinking. Bob:                And it's the middle of summer in the South Pacific, so I'm imagining that water temperature may have been warm?  Although you had a blanket around you when you were on board ship.  Was it chilly? Ed:                  Well, we were traveling, you know, right out in the open about 17 knots, so 15 miles an hour, so to speak, and I needed that blanket around me to keep the chill off of me, because it would be a little chilly and, yes, at night the water was cool.  In fact, the water in the Pacific at that time was about 85 degrees and, of course, if you stay in the water, you know, long, at 85 degrees then your body temperature is going to drop to 85 degrees or close to that.                         Yet, in the daytime, then, you're going to warm up to 100 degrees.  So you burn up in the daytime, and you're desperate for water because you're swimming most of the time.  You're either swimming to stay in a group, or you're swimming to get back into a group when you've come upon a swell, and you've kind of been separated.  And you can imagine, you know, when we had 50 or 70 or so boys, and you go up on a swell 20-feet high, and that breaks away, then you're separated maybe by 50 yards.  So just nearly immediately, even the first day, we learned that we needed to take our kapok jackets and kind of hook onto each other and stay and keep – even keep some of those – in fact, we had some that didn't have life jackets, and we had some boys that were injured, and we'd try to keep them in the center of our group or else we were separated completely. Bob:                How big was your group that you were linked together with?  That first night you swam over to a group and I'm sure started talking about what do we do and how do we prepare for whatever is ahead.  How many guys were around you? Ed:                  There were 80 in our – the best that we could count, there were 80 in our group and, of course, again, it's night, right after midnight, but the best that we could take inventory, there were 80 of us.  I had two other Marines with me, and one of them had been blown up against the bulkhead.  He had multiple breaks in his body, and he couldn't stand for me to even hardly touch him, to give him any assistance.  But he did have a life jacket, and then the other Marine buddy, then, had gone into the water head first and had gotten all that oil, then, in his eyes, and he's going to suffer with that, now, the next few days – tremendous suffering that he experienced the next few days. Dennis:          Do you remember the dawn on that first morning? Ed:                  I can remember the dawn very well the first morning, because we had company.  We had sharks, and we had lost maybe a dozen or so boys that night … Dennis:          … of the 80? Ed:                  Of the 80, and yet we still had their kapoks and them with us, and then sometime, then, up in the morning there – I don't recall just exactly how and when we did it, but we removed their dogtags and someone supposedly kept those, and then we released them and gave them, you know, a so-called proper burial there at sea, and someone – there was an officer or two there with us that someone would say The Lord's Prayer, and that was about the extent of their burial, and then – it was up in the day, maybe a little bit later before the sharks really began to come around us too much.  And, really, they didn't seem to want to attack our group.  As long as we stayed in a group, they didn't bother our group. But if someone would stray from the group – and that's another reason why we tried to fasten ourselves together and form a circle to keep everyone intact – if someone would break loose and swim out, then, all of a sudden, you would hear a bloodcurdling scream, and you'd look and see that kapok jacket went under, and then suddenly, then, it would come back up and there would be sharks and there would be fighting over the remains there for a little bit.  So that began to take place all that first day. Dennis:          That had to be absolutely terrifying.  I mean – I can't even begin to fathom how fear would grip an individual but also a group of people.  I mean, you'd see the dorsal fins above the surface, circling you? Ed:                  We'd see them circling us and nearly, at any given time, if maybe you didn't see them, and you'd wonder, "Well, maybe they've gone."  Just put your head in the water and, of course, you could see them – you know, maybe there would be 20, you know, 12, 15-foot sharks swimming around down under you.  Whether they are attacking you or not, you know, you're still frightened to death.  They would be swimming under you and around you and even through the group.  Then, you know, you draw your feet up tight, you draw your gut up, and you're so tense that – well, you can't imagine, and I can't explain, you know, the feeling that you have when you know that at any moment that the shark could get you. And maybe the next moment, your buddy that's within five feet of you, a shark hits him and takes a leg off or disembowels him or an arm is gone, and yet you wonder, you know, "Am I going to be next?"  And yet, you know, you pray more, and and you pour your heart out to the Lord, and just hope and pray that somehow, some way, that He will be faithful to the promise that you feel that He's made to you, and that you'll be able to endure.  But you wonder, too, how much longer, you know, can you endure?  And then when you see, you know, maybe by the second day that 20 of them or so are gone, and by the third day at noon, there are 17 of us. I had a sailor come up to me and said, "Hey, Marine, see that island over there?  I just came from over there."  He said, "Captain Parks [ph], Lieutenant Stouffer [ph], Sergeant Cromley [ph], they're over there.  They're having a picnic.  They want you to come over," and, you know, you would hear him, and you would think that he knows exactly what he's talking about but, you know, you've seen what's been happening here for these two days and see the boys that had succumbed to drinking some of the their salt water and then see, within 15 minutes, after they have had a good drink of salt water, you'd see them begin to hallucinate and begin to thrash in the water and begin to scream and yell and just all kinds of contortions, and then you knew what is going to happen. I know this one that saw my Marine buddies out there, he swam away, and he got away maybe 25 yards and, all of a sudden, that bloodcurdling scream, and I looked to see, and saw that kapok jacket go under, and a little bit later then the kapok comes back up with part of the body still fastened to the kapok jacket. Bob:                There had to be just an ongoing cycle of fear and grief.  I mean, fear because sharks are all around you.  You don't know if there's anybody that even knows you're out there, what's going to happen to you?  And then the grief – these are buddies.  These are guys you lived on board ship with, even if you hadn't met them before, for the last 24 hours, you've been in the water with these guys.  You're in a foxhole, and to watch them swim away and watch a shark take their life over and over again.   Ed:                  That's right. Bob:                The grief in your heart – how did you handle that emotional trauma? Ed:                  You had to keep praying, and I know my one Marine buddy that actually did make it – not in my group – later, he left us, and – but, anyway, he was a survivor, and he tells in his testimony that Harrell – I actually was his squad leader, and he said, "Harrell, he was always praying and quoting Scripture," and he called me a hard-shell Christian.  I told him later, I said, "You could have called me a hard-head Christian.  But he called me a "hard-headed Christian.  He was always praying and quoting Scripture."                         And he was asked, "Do you think that did any good?  Did that help to save you?"  And he said, "Well, we survived, and I think it did." Dennis:          You quoted the 23rd Psalm over and over and over again. Ed:                  Right. Dennis:          That brought comfort to your soul? Ed:                  You know, when you think of the psalm, you say, "The Lord is my shepherd, He maketh me to lie down" – the words "He" the personal pronoun, the Lord.  And then after you say it a time or two, then you say, "The Lord is MY shepherd.  He maketh ME to lie down in green pastures."  And so you apply it to your own heart, and then you feel that He hears you and that He responds and then you see a buddy then go, and then you're spared, and then you feel that the Lord, that somehow, some way, has given you assurance that He's still with you, that you're going to make it.                         And then on the second day, you know, when you're so thirsty that you're tongue begins to swell in your mouth, and you get to where you can't talk properly, and you're praying for water, swimming in it, but you know that you can't drink it, you know the poison that it contains, especially in a dehydrated body, and you've seen your buddies drink some of that.  I saw boys, as they would hold – tear off some of their clothing and take some water and put it up in that piece of cloth and put their head down under it and drink some of that, thinking that maybe it's got some of the salt out.  They were desperate for water.  And yet maybe in 15 minutes, then you begin to see them jerk and quiver and thrash in the water, and then they began to be not too coherent, and they began to imagine all kinds of things. And so I knew I couldn't drink that, but then you pray for water, and it was sometime that second day that we had prayed and even as a group we prayed.  I often say that there's no such thing as an atheist in foxholes and no atheist out there.  Everybody either prayed, or they would ask you to pray, and we prayed.  And so we're praying for water.  We have to have it, or else we aren't going to survive, we think.  And then after our little prayer meeting, then to look up and see a little cloud out in the distance, and seeing, as it got closer and closer, and as it got closer, you know, you could see that it's raining.  And you open your mouth heavenward, you know, and you thank the Lord, and you take your hands, and you put up to your mouth, and you kind of funnel the water as that little cloud moved over.  I don't know whether I got two or three tablespoons full of water, but nevertheless I got some water there on that second day, and then there were other reminders later in the other days where the Lord gave me assurance that He was with me. Dennis:          It's been 60 years.  I'm listening to you tell this story with emotion that seems as fresh as though it happened yesterday – the Lord is my Shepherd, He leadeth me, He restores. Ed:                  Right. Dennis:          And, you know, in hearing your story, there has to be listeners right now who may not be in the middle of an ocean, but they're in the middle of a crisis, and they're encircled, and it's pain, it's panic, it's chaos, it's bedlam.  The Lord is still the same Good Shepherd.  He invites you to come unto Him, and He'll lead you beside the quiet streams and the green pastures, and He will restore.  But you have to take Him at His word, and you have to pray that prayer, Ed, like you prayed – "The Lord is MY shepherd," I am praising, He does lead me and for that person right now, I just would invite you.  Maybe you've given the 23rd Psalm 100 times, maybe you've read it, memorized it, maybe it's time to believe it and to express it. Bob:                I don't know if you've seen it, but our friend, Chip Ingram, has written a new book called "I Am With You Always," which explores pivotal chapters from the Psalms, and the design is to help all of us understand that in the midst of adversity, in the midst of trial – King David went through great trials.  God was with him.  When we go through trials, God is with us.  When you went through your trials out in the Pacific 60 years ago this week, God was with you, Ed.                           And we've got Chip's book in our FamilyLife Resource Center.  In fact, we've got the book you wrote, as well, called "Out of the Depths," which tells the story of the sinking of the Indianapolis and your survival of that disaster.  Any of our listeners who want to contact us to get both of those books, we'll send you at no additional cost the CDs that have our conversation this week with Ed Harrell.  And, in fact, they have expanded material, because we are not able to include all of the interview in our broadcast time.  So you'll get the complete interview with Ed Harrell when you contact us.                         Go to our website, FamilyLife.com.   At the bottom of the screen you'll see a little button that says "Go" with "Today's Resources" around it.  Click that button, it will take you right to the page where you can get more information about these resources.  You can order online.  Again, the website is FamilyLife.com, and you click the "Go" button at the bottom of the screen.  Or if it's easier to call, you can call 1-800-FLTODAY.  That's 1-800-358-6329, 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, and someone on our team can help you get these resources sent out to you.                         When you do contact us, if you're able to make a donation for the ministry of FamilyLife Today during the month of August, there is an additional resource we would love to send you as a thank you gift.  Back a few months ago, we had a conversation with Shaunti Feldhahn, who is the author of a book called "For Women Only."  We featured that interview on FamilyLife Today back in the spring, and it was immediately well received by our listeners.  I think they found it very helpful.  Shaunti had done research with more than 1,000 men, asking them about what is at the core of what a man needs in a relationship with his wife, and some of the responses were surprising, very revealing.  We'd like to send those two CDs to you as our way of saying thank you this month when you make a donation of any amount to support the ministry of FamilyLife Today.                         Just ask for the CDs for women when you call 1-800-FLTODAY or if you're online, and you're filling out a donation form, just type the two letters "CD" in the keycode box, and that will let us know that you'd like to have the Shaunti Feldhahn CDs sent to you.  Again, our website is FamilyLife.com, or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY and, again, thanks in advance for whatever you are able to do in terms of helping with our financial needs during the month of August.                         Well, tomorrow we're going to be back to continue our conversation with Ed Harrell.  We'll hear about how you almost gave up hope on the third day that you were at sea.  In fact, some of the guys who were with you did give up hope.  We'll hear more about that tomorrow.  I hope our listeners can be back with us for that.                         I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  ________________________________________________________________ We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?         Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved.       www.FamilyLife.com

Listen to Part 1Listen to Part 2Listen to Part 3Listen to Part 4FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Out of the Depths Day 3 of 4 Guest:                        Ed Harrell From the Series:       Survival in the South Pacific ________________________________________________________________  Bob:                Sixty years ago this week, Ed Harrell was one of a few hundred men floating in the Pacific following the sinking of the USS Indianapolis.  In the four days that he was afloat, Ed saw some of his fellow sailors drift away from the group to be eaten by sharks.  Some who tried to swim toward an imaginary shore who never came back.  For Ed, the memories are vivid. Ed:                  I can see it today, and I think maybe I'd like to look at it and say that the Lord reminds me, even today, of those incidents, and as He reminds me of those, then they help to strengthen my faith and my resolve to live a life for Him today. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, August 3rd.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  Where did Ed Harrell's hope come from when it appeared all reason for hope was gone?  Stay with us.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.  You know, we've heard a story this week, Dennis, about a ship under attack.  And then we've heard about the ongoing horror and terror of living in the middle of the ocean, bundled up with your buddies, hooked with your lifejackets to one another as the sharks encircle you in the waters and wondering, "Does anyone even know we're out here or will we die at sea?"  No food, no fresh water except for a thundercloud that comes by and gives you a little bit of a rain shower.  You hear a story like this, and you wonder where does the will to survive in the midst of that come from?  I think of myself and think, "When would I just lay my head back and say, "Okay, I'm ready to die.  I'd rather do that than keep living like this." Dennis:          Yes, in fact, there's a story that Ed Harrell, who joins us again on FamilyLife Today.  Ed, welcome back to the broadcast. Ed:                  Thank you. Dennis:          There's a story you tell, Ed, of a Marine buddy who was ready to do the very thing Bob was talking about.  He was ready to quit, and you kind of – the picture I had from reading your book was you kind of grabbed him by the life jacket and looked him in the eyes, and you gave him a reason to believe. Ed:                  I pretty much gave him an ultimatum, really, in that he had tried to convince me that he was going to commit suicide.  He'd gone into the water head first and all of that oil in his eyes and then, you know, you can imagine – you take your hand, and you try to rub that oil out, but the more you rub your eye, you're rubbing salt in, and you're kind of taking that salt that's in the water, you're grinding your eyeballs with that.  And then the sun then, you know, beaming off of that water, then through the daytime.  By the second day, Spooner was determined that he was going to commit suicide, and he mentioned that two or three times.                         Anyway, I recall that I just got ahold of Spooner, and I turned him to me, and I kind of looked him squarely in the eye, and I said, "Spooner, there's only two of we Marines out here, and whenever a sailor is gone, there's still going to be two Marines, and you're going to be one of them with me," and I kind of turned him to me, and I fashioned – hooked his lifejacket then onto mine, and I swam with him then through that night, and then – it was sometime then the third morning that he wanted me to release him, and he made a vow to me that he would fight for life as long as there was breath in him because of him being able to survive as long as he had through that night, and I released him, then, the next day. Bob:                You and some 300 of your shipmates survived in the waters in the Pacific from the time that your boat was attacked just after midnight on the 30th of July in 1945 when the Indianapolis went under in about 15 minutes.  You survived for a period of, what was it, four days, five days? Ed:                  It was four-and-a-half days, yes. Bob:                And you survived that, as you've already shared with us this week, there was – was it just a single rain shower that passed over that gave you a little bit of water? Ed:                  Right, that's all the rain that we had the whole time I was out there, that's right. Bob:                So you're in salt water, you had a few tablespoons of fresh water in a four-and-a-half day period – any food? Ed:                  Well, let's come to the next day.  The third day, when there were 17 of us, and we had literally had a prayer meeting.  I mean, nearly everybody prayed. Bob:                You'd started with 80, and now you're down to 17. Ed:                  Right.   Dennis:          The sharks had picked off that many? Ed:                  That's right – well, sharks and – you mentioned somebody giving up – you know, I saw any number of boys that maybe at one minute you'd think, "Well, they're still alive," and just a little bit later you'd see that they just all of a sudden – seemingly, they just allowed their head to drop into the water, and they didn't have the energy to raise up, and they didn't care.  I recall that third day that we had had a prayer meeting, and everyone nearly was praying, and some would ask that you would pray for them, you know, they had – some had some children back home that they had never seen, and so on, and they were desperate to make it.  And, you know, "If you make it, and I don't make it, will you go by and see my family" and – "but don't tell them the gruesome things that are happening."                         Anyway, we'd had a prayer meeting, and we got through with a prayer meeting there on that third day, and then we came upon the swell, and we looked off to a distance, and we could see that there looked like a little makeshift of a raft that was coming into our group.  And after a period of time, we yelled at them, and they back at us, and it wasn't long until they made it into our group.  There were five sailors, and they had a makeshift of a raft consisting of, like, two 40-millimeter ammunition cans and three crates, like, a wooden slatted potato crate or an orange crate.  And as they came into our group, I recognized that there were lifejackets that they had taken off of boys that had already expired, and they had squeezed those out the best that they could, because a life – a kapok jacket will last, maybe, 48 hours, but we've already long passed that.                         So when they came in our group, they said that they were swimming to the Philippines; that if we could get close enough to the Philippines that maybe someone would see us.  And, at that time, we were nearly convinced that no word had gotten out, and yet 50 years later we found out that it did.  But, anyway, they wanted to know if anyone wanted to join them – swim to the Philippines, pushing that little raft. Bob:                That was hundreds of miles away, right? Ed:                  Probably 500 miles.  We didn't know that.  So I looked at my buddy, Spooner, and I said, "Spooner, I'm going to go.  I'm going to join them," and he said, "Harrell, if you go, I'm going to go," and so here are two Marines and five sailors began to say goodbye to our 15 other sailors, and we're going to swim to the Philippines, we thought.  So here we start. Dennis:          Was there anything said by the guys you left?  Did they say, "That's foolish to do that? Ed:                  They did.  They thought it was foolish.  They said the sharks will get you, and, well, you know, they've already gotten the bigger part of us, and there was really no – seemingly, no advantage to just stay and somewhat hope against hope and do what we can. Dennis:          So you swam out past the perimeter where those sharks had been circling that group of boys? Ed:                  We left our group and, after an hour or two, then, swimming, actually, I recall that after we had gone a distance we could see the sun setting in the west, and we thought, "Well, we'll be able to see the moon, we'll be able to see the Southern Cross, we'll be able to see the sun now as it sets, and we can tell that we're going to the Philippines, and the Philippines are big enough that we're bound to get in close enough that someone will see us."                         Well, after we had gone a good distance, we came upon a swell, and I could look off into at a distance, and I saw some debris out at the starboard side out maybe a couple of hundred yards or so, and a 100 yards ahead of us, and I called it to the attention of the others.  And at first we thought, "Well, it's one of our buddies out there," but then as we got closer, we could tell that it was debris of some kind, not one of ours, and so, you know, you pray for food.  What's the possibility, you know, could there be food out there, and so we prayed.  And I know I said, "I tell you what, if you'll keep going straight, I'm going to swim out and get that.  If it's just a crate, then we'll bring it in and fasten it onto our others here, but let's hope and pray that it could be food."                         Well, they thought I was foolish again, because the sharks maybe would get a straggler out there, but, really, I felt a real compelling force that says, "Go for it.  Go and see what it might be."  And I know, as I swam and got closer and closer to that crate, I'm praying for food, I'm praying for water, anything, you know, and as I got close enough that I could see those potatoes in that crate.  Kind of in desperation, I didn't pause to thank the Lord for what I'm about to eat but, in desperation, I'm making my way to those potatoes, and I reached in to get that first potato.  Kind of in the agony of defeat, all that rotten potato began to squeeze through my fingers, and as I kind of squeezed that in despair then, all of a sudden, it was solid potato on the inside.  You know, that was some food that I needed, some starch, and some water in that.                         Then I began to peel some of them, then, and fill my dungaree pockets full, and then I began to make my way back, then, to my buddies, with still a lot of potatoes in the crate.  We had a feast.  Oftentimes, I talk to young people, I say, you know, we had a picnic and no ants to bother us. Dennis:          You had sharks, though. Ed:                  We had sharks, we had sharks. Dennis:          You describe in your book that on more than one occasion, the sharks would be circling, and you would look up, and there would be a dorsal fin headed straight toward you. Ed:                  Right.  I know, many times, I had a fin coming straight toward me.  I knew that I was looking into eternity the next second, and yet as he got to me, he just went under, and I felt the dorsal fin as it hit me, and then him to go by.  And maybe then – momentarily then – another one would come through and take a buddy next to you, and yet the Lord, you know, spared me, and, you know, you have to be so mindful of all that the Lord does for you through your life and especially on occasions like that. Bob:                Did you ever lose hope?  Day 4 – the fourth night you've been through, did you ever think, "We're not going to make it.  We're going to die out here." Ed:                  Oh, I'm sure I thought that many times.  I wondered how much longer can a body really endure.  I lost about 27 pounds there in those four days, and, you know, how much more can you endure? Dennis:          Hold it – 27 pounds.  How do you lose 27 pounds in four days? Ed:                  I don't know.  There's others that say that they lost 30 or 40 pounds.  But, you know, dehydration does that to you and then, of course, you might think that we aren't swimming all the time, but basically we are swimming or fighting to be able to stay erect and to not allow the water to slosh over on us and get us strangled and cause us to drink the water.  So you're fighting the situation all the time and especially in the daytime, you know, the swells and all. Bob:                You're trying to stay on top of the swells, keep your head up above the water. Ed:                  That's right. Dennis:          Ed, I listened to your ordeal, and you describe in your book how, at this point, it was Wednesday evening.  You'd been in the water 66 hours.  You had to be near death, and your spirit had to be, as Bob was talking about, losing hope.  And yet, as you dawned on the fourth day, all this group of men that you started out with, you're down to one man, right? Ed:                  At the end of the fourth day, right. Dennis:          How did that happen?   Ed:                  Well, I think it would be fair if I back up just a little bit and say that the night before, when we had the raft, and there were five sailors, two Marines, as it got dark that night, we couldn't go; we couldn't see the Southern Cross, we couldn't see the moon, so along about midnight that night, I know we were just hanging onto the raft, didn't know which way to go, and then we hear voices.                           Now, there's times when I think there's some that heard voices, but we were actually hearing some boys, and we knew it had to be ours, and so we began to respond to them – holler out to them and they to us, and so sometime that night, then, there was a Navy lieutenant and I don't know how many as they came into our group, they kind of came in straggling one at a time, so to speak, and as they came in, I think there were maybe five boys, and Lieutenant McKissock, Charles McKissock from Texas, anyway, he convinced us that he was, likewise, swimming to the Philippines.  He said if we can get close enough then maybe someone will see us.  Then we tried to tell him that we were trying to go there with the raft, and at first he convinced us that the raft would be a deterrent, that it would slow us down, but we said, "Yeah, but we've got a spare tire," as we put it.  We've got spare life jackets on the top.                         And the next thing, maybe, that happened right immediately was that there was a certain Marine that had a pocketful of Irish potatoes that began to take the potatoes out of his pocket and share those with McKissock and the others, and then I don't know what happened after that.  I really don't know what happened before morning.  The only thing that I know is that next morning I'm not with Spooner, not with my buddy, Spooner.  I'm not with the raft; I'm not with the boys that I was with.  I'm with Navy Lieutenant McKissock and one other sailor. And now my life jacket will not hold my head out of the water, and I'm having to constantly swim, trying to keep my head above the water, and sometimes in that fourth day that's one of the times that I wondered if I wasn't gone, there, that fourth day, no doubt it got still.  I'm just exhausted and got still or something or the other and, all of a sudden, something hit me, and I just knew it was a shark.  I fell out of the kapok jacket, fell into the water, and, in desperation, the only hope that I had, I guess, was to get that life jacket back down under me, and I was struggling to get that back down under me, knowing that at any time that a shark is going to attack me.  Bu then, as I finally got back into that life jacket, I'm sitting in it.  Then there was just millions on little fish then, about 8 or 10 inches long, that began to come all around me and kind of nudge against me, and the moment I saw them, I knew that they were my friends.  I knew that if they were there, the sharks weren't around me, and I did try to catch a few with my hands to have one to eat, but I was not successful.  Anyway, that was the closer part of the end of that fourth day before rescue finally came that afternoon. Dennis:          Ed, as I've listened to you take us to one dramatic scene after another, I've stared into your face, and I've watched the emotion come and go, much like the swells in the ocean, and I'm amazed here, 60 years later, you're still very emotionally tethered to the experience that you had there.  You mentioned after you had been rescued that you couldn't talk about it for a long time?  Why was that? Ed:                  I don't know that I can answer why.  I found out that I relived it each time – if I try to get into any detail or anything – I can see it today.  I mean, there is no problem of seeing what all was happening, but I try to think above that and think of the positive rather than to look at it from the standpoint that hope was gone and nothing but despair.  And then to see my buddies go as they were going. But I recall that after I was home two years, Dad's closest friend, which was a friend of the family, and one Sunday afternoon he insisted, I guess, somewhat, he began to question me and, out of respect, I think, for him, as a friend, and I started telling it, and I talked maybe for a couple of hours.  And I know when I got through my dad broke down, and he said, "Well, he's been home for two years now, and this is the first I've really known of really what happened."                         But it was the best cathartic that I could have ever experienced, really, because there it kind of set in motion, not only through the years how I've wanted to give credit to the Lord for His providence and His mercy and grace to me in my life, but I wanted to tell others somewhat of the story.  So for the past several years, I've been in, like, 14 different states now, telling, and just kind of reliving. Dennis:          Well, you're in all 50 states right now.  You're telling a lot of people the story.  Psalm 139, verses 7 through 10, I think, have a special power about them because of the scene that you have set for us here.  "Where can I go from Thy Spirit, or where can I flee from Thy presence?  If I ascend to heaven, Thou art there.  If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, Thou art there.  If I take the wings of the dawn, if I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, even there Thy hand will lead me, and Thy right hand will lay hold of me."                         It goes on to talk about darkness overwhelming me.  The thing that – or the person who leads us in the midst of the darkness, in the midst of our chaos, our challenges, our crisis that we face, He is the King of kings, the Lord of lords, the sovereign ruler of the universe who knows the number of hairs on our head, and He cares about us, and He loves us, and He loved you.  He loved you and brought you through one of the most amazing stories I've ever heard. Bob:                You know, I can't help but reflect again on the book that our friend, Chip Ingram, has written that looks at a number of the Psalms of David and reminds us that God is with us in the midst of any affliction, and the book is called "I Am With You Always."  It's a book that we've got in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and I don't know what kind of affliction our listeners are going through, but that reminder, again, that God is with us, that He is for us, that He has not abandoned us.  There are times in life when we have to be reminded of that, and Chip's book does a great job of doing that.                           Again, it's in our FamilyLife Resource Center along with the book that you've written, Ed, which tells the story of the sinking of the Indianapolis and of your survival – four days in the Pacific.  The book is called "Out of the Depths," and we have both books in our FamilyLife Resource Center.  In fact, this week when our listeners order both books together, we will send at no additional cost the two CDs that have our conversation this week with Ed Harrell and, in fact the CDs have more of the story than we've been able to include on the broadcast because of time constraints.  It's something that the whole family can listen to as you travel this summer, or you can use it for family devotions.                         Go to our website, FamilyLife.com.  When you get to the home page, down at the bottom of the screen there's a button that says "Go."  You click on that button, it will take you right to page where you get more information about the resources we've been talking about.  You can order online, if you'd like.  Again, the website is FamilyLife.com or call 1-800-FLTODAY.  We've got folks who are standing by who can help you with more information about any of these resources, or they can take your order over the phone and get the resources sent to you.  Again, the toll-free number is 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.                           We also want to ask you when you get in touch with us, if you're able to help with a donation this month, you need to know that FamilyLife Today is a listener-supported program, and it's donations to the ministry that keep us on the air in this city and in cities all across the country.  You also need to know that we are committed to the idea that you ought to be giving to your local church as your first priority.  So we hope that if you do get in contact with us to make a donation, you're not, in any way, taking money away from your local church.                         But as you are able to help with the financial support of this ministry in the month of August, we want to send you a thank you gift.  Back, a couple of months ago, we sat down with Shaunti Feldhahn, who is the author of a book called "For Women Only."  We had a great conversation with her about things women need to know about their husbands that many women just aren't aware of.  Shaunti had done research on the subject, and many of you got in touch with us after those interviews and requested the CDs, and we thought during the month of August we would make those CDs available to anyone who wants to make a donation of any amount to the ministry of FamilyLife Today.                          You can donate online at FamilyLife.com or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY to make a donation.  You'll need to request the CDs when you make your donation.  If you're calling, just let our team know that you want the CDs for women, and they'll send those to you.  Or you can request the CDs online.  When you get to the keycode box as you're making your donation, just type in the two letters "CD," and we'll send out the interview to you.  And, again, it's our way of saying thanks for your ongoing support of FamilyLife Today.  We appreciate you standing with us financially.                         Well, tomorrow Ed Harrell is going to be back with us to finish the story.  We're going to hear how you were spotted in the water, and it's a remarkable story of God's amazing providence.  I hope our listeners can be with us for that.                         I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  ________________________________________________________________ We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?         Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved.       www.FamilyLife.com     

Listen to Part 1Listen to Part 2Listen to Part 3Listen to Part 4FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Out of the Depths Day 4 of 4 Guest:                            Ed Harrell From the Series:         Ducks on the Pond: Rescued at Last________________________________________________________________ Bob:                Sixty years ago this week, Ed Harrell and a number of other sailors were pulled from the Pacific.  They had survived four-and-a-half days afloat after the sinking of the USS Indianapolis.  It's four days that, as you might imagine, Ed Harrell has never been able to forget. Ed:                  I have not had nightmares.  I've had many times that I've awakened and have a vivid scene of the happenings, and yet I think my counteraction to that is "Thank you, Lord, for sparing my life and for bringing me through all of this." Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, August 4th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll hear how God spared Ed Harrell's life today, and we'll hear a remarkable story about a rescue in the middle of the Pacific.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.  You know, Hollywood has told some tales of castaways left on a desert island, folks surviving in the middle of nowhere, and I've seen some of those movies, and you watch them, and they're interesting.  They have never come close to telling the story that we've heard this week. Dennis:          No, I agree, Bob.  Ed Harrell has been with us all this week and has told a story, a compelling story of how God enabled him to survive an ordeal at sea after being a crew member on the USS Indianapolis, which was sunk on the night of July 30, 1945, by a Japanese submarine, and, Ed, I want to thank you again for your service as a veteran, but also for writing this book and for taking us there and giving us a greater appreciation not just for veterans and what they've done to protect our freedom as Americans but also for taking us there and showing us what tough-minded faith in Almighty God looks like.  Because time and time again you've taken us to vivid scenes where you've been at a fork in the road where you've had to trust God, and you'd been at sea for four days in a life jacket.  You'd only had a few tablespoons of water.  You had some rotten potatoes that had come after you'd prayed for some food; been separated from your buddies, and on the fourth day you are virtually alone. Ed:                  No question.  Even with my buddy at the time and, in fact, there were three of us at the tail end there that fourth day and the one then dropped his head in the water, and he's gone, and then it's just McKissock and myself.  And my mind, by now, is beginning to fail me somewhat in that – McKissock, I know, would say to me, "Hey, Marine, you ever been to the Philippines?"  And, "No, I've never been there."  Well, he had, and he promised to kind of take me under his wing when we got there.                          And yet I knew him.  I knew who he was.  I'd served under him, and he was a peach of a guy, and yet, to me, he was Uncle Edwin, and I called him Uncle Edwin.  I had an uncle two years older than me.  I guess I was thinking of the good times in my mind with someone back home, and yet McKissock was Uncle Edwin to me.                                                And then it was sometime then that afternoon, you know, we had seen the planes, heard them at 30,000 feet, and I say to McKissock, "I hear a plane."  And he said, "I hear one, too," and if you can imagine somewhat that you hear a plane, and you know that it's somewhere coming closer, and yet you don't know which direction it is.  And we began to look all around and, finally, we could detect that it's coming from that direction. Dennis:          Was it coming toward you? Ed:                  It was coming toward us, and it was flying about 8,000 feet and, well, what do you do?  I tell you what you do.  You scream, you splash water, you make all kinds of contortions there in the water, hoping and praying that he can see you.  But here he is flying over us, and had he come any further, he would have gone over us, but when he got, like a quarter of a mile or so out here, flying at 8,000 feet, he headed it straight down toward us as if he knew we were there.  But he didn't know we were there – impossible for him to see us.  If we'd had on deer-hunter orange, and he knew we were there, he could not have seen us.                         In fact, the pilot that later picked us up, he said the possibility of him seeing you would be the equivalent of taking the cross-section of a human hair and looking at the end of that human hair at 20 feet.  He said impossible for him to see us. Dennis:          So why did he go into the dive? Ed:                  Why did he go into the dive – that's the miracle of the angel coming for us, and that is the end of the fourth day.  Well, I've talked to Lieutenant Guinn [ph] at different times, and … Bob:                He was the pilot? Ed:                  He was the pilot, and he was flying out of Pulau, and he was flying a land-based plane, something like a B-20, a twin-engine plane, and as he was flying, he had left out that morning, and he had a problem with his antenna that kind of trails at the back of that aircraft.  And the stabilizer on that antenna had come off, and they had put something on, and he went out and tried it, and it didn't work.  They came back in, and then they put something on, and here they go again.                         So as he is flying over us, and here, as I mentioned, here he's coming just at a point that he could nearly dive right down to us, at that point he had gone back to the bomb bay door, and he'd opened the bomb bay door, and he was reeling in the antenna, and while he had that bomb bay door open, he looks down at a split-second there in the late afternoon of the fourth day, when the sun was setting on us late in the afternoon, and he saw the little mirror, so to speak, of the sun hitting on the oil on our clothing, and when he saw that, he thought it was a submarine down there. So immediately he rushes back to take over the controls, and the boys in the aircraft, they yelled back at him, with all that noise, you know, with the motors still revving up, you know, "What is it?  What is it?"  And he said, "Look down there."  And they looked down, and they could see the oil slick.  Well, my story is this – that we see him coming, and as if God had planned it for us, you know, here, when he gets to about a quarter of a mile from us, he heads down, and he comes down, and he circles us.  And as he circles us, then he tilts his wings a few times, you know, and then he leaves us.  He goes back up, and he circles us again up here. And we wondered, "Well, what in the world is he doing up there?"  Well, he can't land on the water, we knew that, but what he did, he came down, and he saw that there was someone down here.  He goes up, and he breaks radio silence to declare, "ducks on the pond."  He didn't know whether we were Japanese or American boys, but he broke radio silence to declare ducks on the pond.  And then he comes back down, then, and he circles us again.  He tilts his wings a time or two to give us assurance, you know, that we know you're there.  We don't know who you are, but we know you're there. And then he drops a life raft in, and in the meantime, then, he has radioed back into Pulau, and the next pilot, then, gets into a PBY that could land in the water, and Adrian March [ph], then, he's on his way, you know, to come and to pick us up.  And sometime later, then, he arrives, and in the meantime the raft that Guinn had dropped – I know, my friend McKissock, had made his way to the raft.  Then he's leaving it, and I wonder what's wrong.  And I get to the raft then, and it was bottom side up.  I try to get it turned over, managed to get it halfway turned over, but the CO2 on it was torn off, so I couldn't inflate it – no food, no water, no nothing – kind of a torn place in it, so it wouldn't even hold me just to stand on that, so to speak, hole in that pile of rubber. In the meantime, then McKissock had gotten far enough away from me that the PBY landed and had picked him up, and then I wondered, well, will he tell them that there's a Marine out there with him?  Well, he did, but it was a period of time that the plane seemingly – I couldn't see it, but he was running the swells – they were, like, 20-foot swells, and he'd run the swells back and forth trying to make his way over to me, and it took a period of time for him to run those to where he could get across, because if he had turned those props into the water, it would have flipped his plane.  And he pulled a no-no when he landed.  It was against all regulations for him to land his plane in the open sea, and yet he did, because as he landed he said he could see more sharks than he saw boys.  And we were scattered over, like, a 75-mile area, and he took reconnaissance of that and could see that there are boys in life rafts, there are boys on floater nets, and there are stragglers.  Then he actually saw shark attack on several boys, and he was determined that he was going to land, and he cleared it with the rest of the crew.  They all voted somewhat that they could take the punishment, but we've got to land. So they landed then and then finally then they came over me and through out a little life ring and picked me up.  I recall that as they got me out of the water, I blacked out or nearly blacked out.  I had no control over myself, and then they got me aboard the plane, then, and they would take me like a sack of feed and set the guy here, and the next guy just stack him against him, and they kept stacking us in there, and then finally it wouldn't hold anymore, and there were still some boys, stragglers out there, and it was getting dusk dark, and they picked up all that they could, all that they could find, and they actually fashioned them out on the wings, and then finally then sometime later in the night, the seas calmed down after night somewhat, and they shut off the motors, and we sat there and waiting until 12 or 1:00 or so in the morning when the little destroyer, Doyle, came in, and they picked us up. When I got aboard the plane, after a moment to board the plane, then I could look across at a Marine, and I could see that it was a blond-haired guy.  I could see he had the eyeballs that were just big red sores, and I knew it was Spooner, and I saw what he was doing.  He had a can of green beans, and he was feeling down on the deck of the ship, and he finally found a stud bolt or something down there, and he took that can of green beans, and he kept hacking away until he knocked a hole in the can of green beans and then he was turning that juice up and drinking it.  I recall saying to him, "Hey, Marine, how about some of your bean juice?" Well, you'd have to know Spooner, but he kind of told me where I could go, and … Dennis:          This is the guy that you saved his life by grabbing him by the life jackets on day 2, right? Ed:                  Yes.  Then I said to him, "Spooner, you don't know who this is.  This is Harrell."  Well, I didn't have to say any more.  He just kind of fell across the plane there toward me and kind of spilled some of his bean juice as he shared that with me.                         I was transferred, then, aboard the Doyle, and sometime that night, 1:00 or so that night. Dennis:          Ed, when he lunged across the floor of that plane to give you the bean juice, was that kind of an emotional – I can't even imagine.  I mean, he's alive, you're alive, it's what you'd said two days earlier.  You said, "You and I are going to get out of here." Ed:                  It was emotional for me as much as, I'm sure, for him – just to see that he made it, you know, because I didn't know anytime that fourth day – I knew not where Spooner might be.  And then to be able to see him there and see that he was alive, and I recognized him as soon as I looked across the plane and saw those eyes, I knew it was Spooner. Bob:                When you first heard that plane, when it started to dive and was tilting its wings at you, you thought, "We're going to be rescued?" Ed:                  Yes. Bob:                I would think you'd just weep. Ed:                  Well, you know, there's times when you weep, and there's times when you weep for joy.  I look back on this, and when I look at the – well, the first day that I had every assurance that somehow, some way, the Lord is going to see me through.  I felt that from the very moment that I went into the water.  And then the second day, when He provided the water for me … Bob:                … the rain shower … Ed:                  … you know, you have to just say "Thank you, Lord, I know that you are speaking to my heart and that somehow, some way, you're going to see me through."  And then on the third day, then, when the little raft came into the group, and you know that your life jacket no longer is holding your head out of the water, and now you have a spare life jacket that He provided for you, and you have to thank Him again.  And then sometime, then, the third afternoon, likewise, when you're starving still for water and for some food, and then for Him to provide half-rotten potatoes, you know, I have to thank, you know, He's still with me. And as I look back on that, you know, I think of the water of life.  You know, if you drink of this water, you're going to thirst again.  If you drink of that salt water, you're not going to make it at all.  But if you drink of the water that I give you, you'll never thirst again.  And then the bread of life, the potatoes that I had – and then when I get to the last day, the plane that came in, well, you know, it's like the Lord says, "Let not your hearts be troubled.  If you believe in God believe also in Me.  In My Father's house are many dwelling places.  I go to prepare a place for you, and since I go to prepare a place for you, I'm going to come again, and I'll receive you unto myself that where I am there you may be also."                         And so here He's coming, for me, at that time, He came for me in the person of Lieutenant Guinn as he came.  So I look back on the whole experience, and I think I have to say that it's a wonderful experience to have lived through, and I just praise and thank the Lord all the time for His mercy and and for His grace – unworthy as I am and yet He saw fit to spare my life through this ordeal. Bob:                You know, you mentioned that it was two years before you shared anything with your father.  We got a letter – you may remember this, Dennis, from a woman whose husband had passed on, and she said it wasn't until the last years of his life, some – almost 50 years after the battle had occurred – that she knew he'd been on Iwo Jima.  They'd gone their whole married life; she had never known that he was in that battle until near the end of his life.                         And I thought to myself as I read that, it was another way that he was protecting and defending by not sharing his story, and yet she wrote, and she said, "Knowing that sure explained some of the nights when he would wake up in terror."  Have you had that experience?  Have you had the nightmares and the terror of remembering some of that? Ed:                  I have not had nightmares.  I have had, many times that I've awakened and have a vivid scene of the happenings, and yet I think my counteraction to that is that "Thank you, Lord, for sparing my life and for bringing me through all of this," and I think maybe – I like to look at it, say that the Lord reminds me even today of those incidents.  And as He reminds me of those, then they help to strengthen my faith and my resolve to live a life for him today. Dennis:          You mentioned that pilot ended up finding 56 survivors on that fourth day.   Ed:                  Right. Dennis:          In total, there were 317 survivors.  How did the rest of them all get picked up? Ed:                  Well, as soon as they picked us up and found out that it was the Indianapolis, then all word went out.  They broke radio silence everywhere, and any ship within a couple of hundred miles or so; that is, a destroyer or something that could move fast, they came to the scene.  And when the USS Doyle, the ship that picked me up, when it got closer and closer, what did he do, Commander Claytor, he turned on his powerful spotlights up on the under part of the clouds, and you can imagine what that did to that whole area.  It was just like a mushroom with lights underneath the clouds.  And for the boys that were out there, they knew that rescue was there, and that gave them the hope that they needed.  And some of those had to go through another night.  It would be dangerous, you know, as dark as it was, to try to take some kind of a craft out there and maneuver around without hitting someone.  But that gave them hope through the night until the next morning.                         Now, I was picked up aboard the Doyle off the PBY.  I know, as they took me aboard, there was a couple of sailors that there's no qualms about them getting dirty or anything, and, of course, we were grease monkeys, really, with all that oil and all on us.  And I recall that they took my arms and put them around their neck, and they drug my feet, and they took me down below deck, and then they began to – they stripped off my clothing, and then they began to take something like a diesel fuel or kerosene, and they began to wash that oil off of me.  And then they had to be so careful with all of the saltwater ulcers that I had, and then they put me in – a Marine being put in Navy skivvies.  So they put their Navy underwear on me, and then … Bob:                You were okay with that, at that point? Ed:                  I was okay.  In fact, may I just say that I met the guy, after 57 years, I met the guy aboard the Doyle that actually cleaned me up, and he took me, then, to his bunk and gave me his bed, and then the corpsmen then came, and they had a cup of sugared water, warm sugared water, and they gave me a couple of tablespoons full or so of warm sugared water to kind of rehydrate me, I guess. Bob:                Did it taste pretty good? Ed:                  It tasted wonderful, it tasted wonderful. Bob:                Sixty years after this happened, how many of the survivors are still alive? Ed:                  A week or so ago, I got a report.  I think there was 97 of us still alive. Bob:                Spooner? Ed:                  Spooner's gone.  There's five of we Marines.  Nine of we marines survived out of – there were 39 of us aboard, and nine of us survived, and of the nine there are five of us still living today. Bob:                How about McKissock? Ed:                  No, McKissock's gone.  And, by the way, McKissock was not a believer at the time, and McKissock told me later, he said, "Harrell, I went home, and I got to look at all that the Lord had brought me through there," and he said, "I was a churchgoer.  I went to church all the time, but I was really not a believer."  And he said, "Finally, I just had to get down on my knees and thank the Lord and tell Him that I trusted Him as my Savior because I know that He had a purpose for my life."  And he became a real Christian friend of mine as long as he lived.  He passed away four years ago, maybe. Dennis:          Well, Ed, wow.  I'm exhausted from treading water here with you.  But I have to say, what a great story.  What a great story of faith and redemption, God's providential care, and how you have faithfully given Him the credit and the honor for doing that.  I'm grateful for your book and just pray that God will give you many great years of health and many more great-grandchildren, and I appreciate you being with us here on FamilyLife Today. Ed:                  Thank you so much, my delight, my pleasure to be with you. Bob:                And, you know, if any of our listeners this week have missed portions of this story, we've got our interview with Ed available on CD.  In fact, it's on two CDs, and we've been able to include on the CDs material that we weren't able to fit on the radio because of time constraints.                           We also have the book that you've written, Ed, which is called "Out of the Depths."  It tells the story of the sinking of the Indianapolis and of your rescue along with the rescue of the other sailors and Marines who were in the water 60 years ago this week.  Go to our website at FamilyLife.com if you're interested in getting a copy of Ed's book or the CDs of our discussion.                          At the bottom of your screen when you're on our website, FamilyLife.com, you'll see a little button that says "Go."  Click on that button, and it will take you to a page where there is more information on Ed's book, on other resources that we're recommending this week.  You can order online at FamilyLife.com, if you'd like, or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY and someone on our team can answer any questions you might have about these resources, or you can order over the phone as well.                         1-800-FLTODAY is the number.  The website, again, is FamilyLife.com, and let me encourage you, especially if you weren't able to hear the complete story, to contact us and get a copy of the book and the CDs as well.                         And then let me also ask you consider this month making a donation to FamilyLife Today.  We're a listener-supported program.  Your donations are what keep us on the air.  We are asking folks if, during the month of August, you could make a donation to help with our financial needs.  We'd like to send you a thank you gift.  A few months ago we had Shaunti Feldhahn in our studios, and we visited with her on a book that she's written called "For Women Only."  It's based on research that she has done with more than 1,000 men all across the country asking them about what they need most from their wives.                         This month we're going to make those available to you as a thank you gift when you make a donation of any amount to FamilyLife Today.  You can donate online at FamilyLife.com or you can call 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY to make your donation.  When you do, be sure to request the CDs for women, or if you're online, when the keycode box comes up, type in the two letters "CD," and we'll know that you'd like to have the Shaunti Feldhahn CDs sent to you.  And let me say thanks in advance for your support of this ministry.  It is much needed, and it is appreciated.                         Well, tomorrow we're going to talk about some very profound theological ideas that even a three-year-old can begin to catch onto.  We'll explain what we mean tomorrow.  I hope you can be back with us for that.                         I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  ________________________________________________________________ We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?         Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved.       www.FamilyLife.com                             

A Promise Kept (Part 1) - Robertson McQuilkinA Promise Kept (Part 2) - Robertson McQuilkinA Promise Kept (Part 3) - Robertson McQuilkinA Promise Kept (Part 4) - Robertson McQuilkinFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. A Promise KeptDay 1 of 4 Guest:                        Robertson McQuilkin From the series:       My Decision, Part 1   Bob: Robertson McQuilkin clearly remembers the first time he realized something was wrong with his wife, Muriel. Robertson: We were driving with these friends, and Muriel started to tell a story.  She liked to tell stories and laugh at her own stories.  She had a marvelous, outrageous life – infectious.  So she started this story, which she had just told five minutes earlier.  This is a pretty, you know, four- or five-minute story.  And I said, "Honey, you just told us that.  This is a rerun."  And she just laughed and went right on.  And I thought, "Hey, that's funny.  That never happened before."  But then it began to happen with ever-greater frequency and, of course, we hadn't even heard the name Alzheimer's. [musical transition]  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, August 11th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  Today we hear the first part of a powerful love story.  Stay tuned. [musical transition]  And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Monday edition.  I know one of the questions you get asked frequently – I get asked the same question – is when you think back over now almost 16 years of doing FamilyLife Today what are some of your favorite radio interviews?  And I think what our listeners are going to get a chance to hear this week has to be up in the top tier of programs we've ever had the privilege of doing. Dennis: And I thought you were going to say, Bob, one of the Top 10. Bob:  Well, it's certainly one of the Top 10, maybe even higher than that, don't you think? Dennis: No doubt about that.  Robertson McQuilkin is a rare man.  He is a world-renowned biblical theologian who has served internationally as a missionary.  He was, for a number of years, president of Columbia International University; has spoken worldwide; written a number of books.  But the real story our listeners are about to hear is Robertson's love for his wife, Muriel, who – well, more than 10 years from the time of this interview had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease, and he was caring for her and, in fact, had resigned from his position as president of the seminary and college, and he went home to take care of her.  And it's just a great love story. Bob:  It is a powerful story and, again, this interview goes back now almost nine years, but it's one of those interviews that we pull out and listen to ourselves over and over again, and we wanted our listeners to hear it as well.  Here is part 1 of our conversation with Dr. Robertson McQuilkin. Dennis: Robertson, you and your wife, Muriel, met and dated during the year I was born – 1948.  That kind of dates me here a little bit. Robertson: It dates me. Dennis: Tell us about the love story originally.  How did you meet Muriel and how did you propose to her? Robertson: Well, we were both students at what was then Columbia Bible College.  Now it's Columbia International University.  And I thought she was the cutest thing.  Somebody asked me on a television show whether it was love at first sight, and I said, "No."  I liked her at first sight, but I was only 17 years old – 16 when we first met.  But in our chapel, which was required, she sat in front of me, and when I watched her lovely, artistic fingers going through the hair, lovely brown hair, I just wanted to go out and see what she was like, and I discovered she was delightful – just smart and gifted and just a great lover of people and more fun than you can imagine. Bob: Now, did you just tap her on the shoulder in chapel and say, "Would you go out for a Coke with me on Friday night? Robertson: Well, I talked to her afterwards.  We were in conversation before, but, I mean, that really got me going. Dennis: So you proposed – how'd you do that? Robertson: It happened several times. Dennis: It took you a while to win Muriel's love, huh? Robertson: I think she was faking it, actually.  But, at any rate, yes.  The first time was in the lobby of the school, and she had this – she wouldn't hold hands or kiss or anything, and I said, "Let me hold your hand, I want to tell you something."  And she said, "Well, tell me what you're going to tell me."  But she let me hold her hand, and I told her I loved her, and that was the first time. Dennis: Yeah, and you told her you wanted her to be your wife? Robertson: I didn't say that much, but she got the drift.  But we decided afterwards, since we were young – and I guess a lot of people, after they propose, then they have misgivings.  So we decided to be sure it was God's will that we put it on hold for six months, and I went to seminary, and she went to teach in a school.  So we didn't have any contact for six months.  And they say that distance will blow out a little flame and fan a big one.   So at the end of that time – I went to Bluefield, West Virginia to see her, and it was on Valentine's Day 1947 – the day before Valentine's Day, and that's when I had my ring and asked her to marry me, and she said, "Well, I've got to pray about it."  She knew all along what she was going to do.  Through the years I'd accuse her, I'd say, "You just did that so we could get engaged on Valentine's Day." [laughter]  Bob: Well, you had to be a little nervous, driving up to Bluefield, West Virginia.  You haven't seen her in six months, and you're carrying the ring, and did you wonder whether that little flame had been blown out or whether the big flame was still fanned? Robertson: Well, I don't know, I was pretty confident, I guess. Dennis: Really? Robertson: She'd sent me all kinds of signals.  I think it was her idea in the first place. Dennis: Well, you begin your book, "A Promise Kept," some 30 years later with the story of you all spending some time at a friend's house in Florida.  And something occurred there that was the beginning of a period of suffering and drama that continues on to this day. Robertson: We were driving with these friends, and Muriel started to tell a story.  She liked to tell stories and laugh at her own stories.  She had a marvelous, outrageous laugh – infectious.  So she started this story, which she had just told five minutes earlier.  It was a pretty – you know, four- or five-minute story.  I said, "Honey, you just told us that.  This is a rerun," and she just laughed and went right on.  And I thought, "Hey, that's funny, that never happened before."  But then it began to happen with ever-greater frequency and, of course, we hadn't even heard the name Alzheimer's back then, I don't think. Dennis: How old was Muriel at that point? Robertson: Fifty-five.  But if we had known about Alzheimer's, it's an old-folks' disease and wouldn't have connected it with her, anyway.   Bob: When did you get to a point where you said, "There's something going on here?" Robertson: Well, actually, she went into the hospital for a heart examination.  It proved to be nothing, but then the young – I guess he was an intern – a very young doctor, I'd never met him, he called me out into the hall, and he said, "You may want to consider Alzheimer's."  And I was shocked, but that started the wheels turning, and about two yeas after that, in '83, we went to a neurologist friend who, by the process of elimination, concluded that that's probably what it was. Dennis: How did you handle the news that your wife of less than 60 years of age could have a disease that was progressive, and you were watching it manifest itself in various ways – how did you personally handle it at that point? Robertson: Well, of course, there's a sense of loss, but it wasn't a crisis experience because we knew something was up.  One time on a TV program, a man said, "What has God done miraculously to enable you to love her so and to hang in there and be patient," so forth?  And I said, "I don't like the question.  What if I said, 'I like you, but the only reason is that God has worked a miracle to enable me to like somebody so unlikable.'  I said you wouldn't like that.  I love her because she's lovable, she's altogether lovable."  So it's never been something I try to pump up or something like that. Dennis: I want to stop you right there – "She is altogether lovable."  She hasn't spoken a word to you in how many years? Robertson: Oh, six, I guess. Dennis: Six years. Robertson: Yes. Dennis: Help me here – there are some of our listeners who want to say, "Robertson, she is altogether lovable." Robertson: She is sweet, she's contented, she's totally dependent on me, and I just – from all the background of the wonderful years that we spent together, I have all the memories, and it's just a joy to see that I can make a difference in her life. Bob: You understand the challenge.  I mean, a lot of people listening are thinking six years of being bedfast and not speaking sounds more like something you endure than something you enjoy. Robertson: I guess it depends on your outlook.  If you consider yourself a victim, and you'd rather be – you know, I never think about "what if."  I don't think "what if" is in God's vocabulary.  So I don't even think about what I might be doing instead of changing her diaper or what I might be doing instead of spending two hours feeding her.  It's the grace of God, I'm sure, like you said, Dennis, but it also may be the way I'm wired to live the now and not live in the past or live in the future. Dennis: In the midst of all these things starting to progress in her life, you write in your book that she did not know what was happening to her. Robertson: No, she didn't.  One thing about forgetting is you forget that you forgot, and so she never seemed to suffer too much with it.  She would know that she'd failed.  She may be desperate to please or to make something happen the way it's supposed to, the way it always had, and it didn't – but only momentarily, and then she'd laugh at herself and have another go at it.  That was her personality, it always had been. Bob: Did you, at some point, say to her, "Sweetheart, you've been diagnosed with Alzheimer's?" Robertson: I never told her.  I asked my doctor if it was okay not to, because some people in the field say that you should walk through it together, but Muriel really lived for me, and I knew that if she realized what was going to happen that this would be very painful for her.  So I asked him, and he said, "No, if she doesn't ask and isn't concerned, then just let it go."  So she never really – she knew she was having problems, but she didn't know the diagnosis. Dennis: I happen to know right now that there is a person who is staying with Muriel – your daughter, Marty. Robertson: Yes. Dennis: And Marty makes it possible for you to be able to make an occasional trip like this – a day trip – as you've had here to FamilyLife and to share your story with us.  I'd like to call Marty on the phone, because she has watched you, as her father and the husband of her mother, make a remarkable commitment to her mother and to your wife.  And she wrote a poem in the back of your book that – what I want to do, Bob, is I want to call Marty on the phone, and I just want to get a little bit of a glimpse from a child, an adult child, of what this has meant to her and have her share this poem with our listeners. Bob: I think we're working to get her on the line right now – let's see. Dennis: Is this Marty? Marty: Yes. Dennis: This is Dennis Rainey and Bob Lepine on FamilyLife Today. Marty:            Uh-huh. Dennis: How are you doing? Marty:            Just fine, thank you. Dennis: We're here in the studio with your Dad.  Why don't you say hi to your Dad? Marty:            Hi, Dad. Robertson: Hi, Martykins. Dennis: He said you love surprises, so we decided we would surprise you. Marty:            Yes, this is a surprise. Dennis: You're there taking care of your mom, right? Marty:            Uh-huh, yes. Dennis: How is she doing today? Marty:            She's doing fine. Robertson: Any smiles? Marty:            Well, no, I don't think so.  But she's taking her time with her lunch still. Dennis: I've just got a couple of things I want you to do.  First of all, we're sharing with our listeners just a remarkable commitment by a husband to his wife.  What's your perspective on that as one who is looking at a man who is committed to your mother? Marty:            Well, of course, I grew up in this family with the two of them, and they always were in love.  I mean – the two of them were always kissing and hugging in the kitchen and in the living room and in the hallway.  I mean – my memory from my childhood is two people that were always – not only did they love one another, but they were in love.  They really thought that each other set the moon, and so it didn't surprise me at all.  I mean, this, to me, is just the natural thing that would happen with these two particular people.  All she ever wanted was to be with him, and all he ever wanted was to be with her, and it never changed, never diminished.  I mean, you know, they had disagreements, and they had discussions and things, but it didn't affect the relationship.  So, to me, this is just the way it ought to be, you know what I'm saying? Robertson: Thank you, Marty. Dennis: Marty, you've written a poem that Robertson put in his book, "A Promise Kept," and I shared with our listeners a few moments ago that we were calling you to ask you a question but also to read this poem that you wrote as a Christmas gift in 1994.  Would you mind – see if you can't find a copy of the book there in the house somewhere and read it to our listeners.  Would you mind doing that? Marty:            Okay, hold on a minute, here.  I'm not sure where in the book it is. Dennis: It's page 72, Marty. Marty:            Okay –  "Wild roses grew in Mother's mind, Seeds fell from her hands, and laughter ran like a mountain brook out of her heart to water our gardens.  She gathered stones and sunlight, moonbeams and melodies; no smallest bit of loveliness was passed without the sweet caress of her happy recognition.  She gleefully uprooted pretense and tossed it in the sea.  She danced and ran where others walked, and now the snow falls deep around the place she spun and shone, scattering godlight from her hair." I don't know if when you were talking to Dad, he described the kind of person Mother was, but she was imperturbable, loved life, and totally disliked any sort of inauthenticity or elitism.  She would think nothing, if she saw a beautiful house, of walking up and ringing the doorbell and asking the owner if she could look through it because she thought it was so beautiful.  She embarrassed us enormously. And she did – she collected rocks, she collected flowers.  I mean, when she would be walking along and see dead flowers along the side of the road, she would collect the seeds from them and bring them home and plant them.   And she would sing.  She would sing if she was washing dishes, she would sing to us when she wanted us to do something instead of asking us.  She had her little songs that she would sing to get us to come and help her sweep the floor or whatever.  So I see her as a garden that is covered with snow, but is not gone. Robertson:  Yes, yes. Bob: Marty, thanks for taking time out to share with our listeners a little bit about your dad and your mom.  We appreciate it. Dennis: Yes, Marty, thank you for setting us straight, because we'll not refer to him as a saint or a hero anymore. Marty:            [laughs] Dennis: Bye-bye. Marty:            Bye. Bob: You know, I had to hear a little bit in Marty's laugh some of what Robertson has described as that infectious laugh of Muriel. Dennis: And you think, Bob, of what a daughter has seen as she has watched this love story emerge.  I think one of the most profound statements she made is that, "Hey, what's abnormal about this?  This was always the commitment, always the love that we saw in our home from day one.  So what's the big deal?"   Well, it just looks like a big deal today, because there's not enough faithful men and women like Robertson and Muriel who are faithfully loving one another, and, Robertson, I know you don't like the attention but, nonetheless, I'm truly grateful that you have continued to weather the storm, even to this day, 22 years later, and that your love stands strong and firm and steadfast for a woman that you love – present tense. Bob: You know, I hate to break it to you, but I don't think you kept your word to Marty.   I think you have referred to her dad as a hero. Dennis:  Yes, I really have. Bob: On more than one occasion. Dennis: I really have, and I still refer to Dr. McQuilkin as a hero, because – well, it's what Marty observed.  It's just a great love story.  I mean, Hollywood tries it, but they seldom get it right, and this is just a magnificent and may I use the word "holy?"  Just a holy story of a man attempting to nourish and cherish his wife in the midst of a disease that was robbing her of her personality and her memory and ultimately of her life. Bob:  And it's stories like this that we need to be reminded of from time to time.  That's one of the reasons we wanted our listeners to hear it – some of them for the first time, and some of them hearing it again.  But, you know, this is one of those stories you ought to listen to again and again.   I was thinking about the couples who have attended our FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences, and it may have been four or five years or longer since they have been to a conference, and they may be thinking, you know, "I've been there done that, don't need to repeat that experience." And yet I think all of us need to be reminded regularly of what sacrificial love and service look like in a marriage relationship.  We need to be reminded of what God's calling us to and how we can build the kind of marriage relationship that can go the distance. We are about to kick off our fall season of FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences here next month, and we're starting to hear from listeners who are getting the dates, blocking out the weekend, and making plans to attend one of these two-and-a-half-day conferences designed to help couples strengthen and deepen their marriage relationship, to provide help, to provide hope, and to give them a fun, relaxing getaway. For many couples, it's a refresher or a tuneup.  For some couples, it's a turning point in their marriage.  And I want to point our listeners to our website, FamilyLife.com.  You can go online and get more information about the fall season of Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences.  I was just visiting with a friend, and he was asking about locations and dates, and I was recommending some spots where he and his wife may want to travel to attend one of these conferences.  If you'd like more information, go online at FamilyLife.com.  You can go ahead and block out the date and register now for one of these upcoming conferences, or if it's easier just call us at 1-800-FLTODAY with any questions you have, or if you'd like to register over the phone, again, it's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY or online, again, you'll find us at FamilyLife.com. And when you get in touch with us, be sure to request a copy of Dr. McQuilkin's books, which is called "A Promise Kept."  It gives you additional insight into the heart and the character of this man.  We have copies of the book, "A Promise Kept," and you can request them from us either online at FamilyLife.com or when you call 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. Let me also encourage you – I think one of the ways you can strengthen your own relationship is by spending time together each day praying and talking together about what the Scriptures say about your marriage relationship, and I know a lot of couples would like to be able to do that and don't feel equipped to be able to do that.  This month when you make a donation of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today, we would love to send you as a thank you gift a copy of the book by Dennis and Barbara Rainey called "Moments With You."  In this book, Dennis and Barbara provide you with a daily devotional that's designed to bring you together, to give you an opportunity to pray together and to look at God's word together and to help you grow closer together as a result. Again, the book, "Moments With You," is our way of saying thank you when you support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation this month of any amount.  If you're making your donation online at FamilyLife.com, when you come to the keycode box on the donation form, type in the word "You," y-o-u, and we'll send you a copy of Dennis and Barbara's daily devotional or call 1-800-FLTODAY, you can make a donation over the phone and just ask for a copy of the devotional, moments with you, or Dennis and Barbara's devotional book.  Again, we're happy to send it to you, and we appreciate your financial support of this ministry. Tomorrow we're going to hear part 2 of our conversation with Dr. Robertson McQuilkin, and you will hear is very moving comments that he made to students the day he stepped down from his responsibilities as president at Columbia Bible College and Seminary.  That's coming up tomorrow, and I hope you can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow. _______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com          

A Promise Kept (Part 1) - Robertson McQuilkinA Promise Kept (Part 2) - Robertson McQuilkinA Promise Kept (Part 3) - Robertson McQuilkinA Promise Kept (Part 4) - Robertson McQuilkinFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. A Promise KeptDay 2 of 4 Guest:                        Robertson McQuilkin From the series:       My Decision, Part 2________________________________________________________________Bob: When Muriel McQuilkin was first diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease, it meant a dramatic re-ordering of priorities for the McQuilkins.  Eventually, her husband, Robertson, stepped down from his role as the president of Columbia Bible College and Seminary. Robertson:  A student asked me one time after I had resigned, a new student, came over and visited me.  He said, "Do you miss being president?"  And I said, "Well, you know, I never thought about it but, no, I don't.  I like my assignment.  I've learned to cook and keep house and garden, and I take care of Muriel.  I love it." Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, August 12th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  Robertson McQuilkin's life changed when his wife, Muriel, was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease, but his priorities didn't.  Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition.  I remember the first time I read the story of Robertson and Muriel McQuilkin, it was in an article, I think, in "Christianity Today," and I remember thinking, "That's powerful.  That's a great demonstration of commitment and love."  You remember reading the same article, don't you? Dennis: I do, I do.  I wept as I read it.  I mean, it's just a great story of a man's covenant commitment to his wife and, Bob, if there has ever been a day when there needed to be stories like this told on radio, it's today, because we have diminished marriage in terms of its covenant and its commitment and what love means to such a degree – well, divorce has replaced it all, and I think, as a result, as a nation, we suffer from a profound mistrust of one another because we can't trust each other to keep the most sacred promise two people ever make to one another. Bob: This week we're giving our listeners an opportunity to hear an interview that we recorded, actually, a number of years ago – almost nine years ago now – with Dr. Robertson McQuilkin.  This is one of our all-time favorites, it's a classic, because it is such a profound love story. Dennis: It really is.  Robertson McQuilkin is an international speaker.  He's written a number of books, he served as an international church planning missionary for more than 12 years in Japan and was president of Columbia International University for 22 years before he resigned in 1990, and you know that's the story, Bob.  He resigned because he wanted to go home and take care of his wife of then more than 40 years, Muriel, who was suffering from Alzheimer's disease. Bob: And after we read the article, we contacted Columbia and asked them if there was any audio recording of his resignation speech, and we're going to play an excerpt from that, and then we'll pick up with part 2 of a conversation we had nine years ago with Dr. Robertson McQuilkin. Dennis: And as you listen to this recording, this is less than two minutes long, but I want you to listen to the resolute commitment of a man to his wife.  This is some of the most profound audio you'll ever hear. Robertson:  [from audiotape.]  I haven't, in my life, experienced easy decision-making on major decisions, but one of the simplest and clearest decisions I've had to make is this one because circumstances dictated it. Muriel now in the last couple of month seems to be almost happy when with me, and almost never happy when not with me.  In fact, she seems to feel trapped, becomes very fearful, sometimes almost terror, and when she can't get to me there can be anger, she's in distress. But when I'm with her, she's happy and contented.  And so I must be with her at all times, and, you see, it's not only that I promised in sickness and in health, 'til death do us part, and I'm a man of my word.  But as I have said – I don't know with this group – but I have publicly it's the only fair thing.  She sacrificed for me for 40 years to make my life possible.  So – if I cared for her for 40 years, I'd still be in debt.   However, there's much more.  It's not that I have to, it's that I get to.  I love her very dearly, and you can tell it's not easy to talk about.  She is a delight.  It's a great honor to care for such a wonderful person. Bob: That powerful, moving announcement has as much power today as it did when it was originally made.  And, Dennis, I'm sitting here watching the man who made it, and it's moving for him to hear his own words 10 years later. Dennis: That's right.  Robertson McQuilkin joins us on the broadcast, and, Robertson, I've got to tell you, as I listen to your words, maybe it's because I'm meeting you face-to-face, but every time I hear those words, I get emotional because this is where life makes up its mind at home.  It's a man keeping his word with his wife, and those were words, back in 1990, but we now have a decade that has followed where you have put shoe leather to those words, as you did resign, and as you did step away from being the president of a seminary and college that you loved; that you profoundly served in and for a number of years and had a great ministry.  You had a speaking ministry around the country.  You had a writing ministry, and you gave that up to go care for your wife, and as one who is a younger man aspiring to be a covenant keeper, and on behalf of many of the male listeners, and, for that matter, Bob, many of the female listeners, too, I'd like to say thank you – thank you for doing what you did.  You did the right thing. Robertson: Well, if God can use it, then I praise Him.  It seems very unexceptional to me – just the natural thing to do.  But thank you. Bob: As you listen back, and I know you haven't heard that resignation announcement.  It's not something that you play on your car stereo from time to time – it had to bring back that memory of being in front of the students, of making what you described there as an easy decision, and yet for a man to walk away from something you've invested your life in for more than two decades, it may have been an easy decision but a hard process to have to make it, wasn't it? Robertson: Well, someone asked me when I began to make career plans, and I said, "No, no, I've never been career-oriented.  It's cause-oriented.  The touchstone for me always has been how can I – whatever God has put in me or will put in me, invested in me, how can that count to the max for what He's up to in the world. So all decisions, then, major decisions of my life, have been what would advance the cause?  "What is God's will" is another way to put it.  So when I say "simple," I mean it was not hard for me to discern what God's will was.  But a student asked me one time after I had resigned, a new student came over to visit me, and he said, "Do you miss being president?"  And I said, "Well, you know, I never thought about it but, no, I don't.  I like my assignment.  I've learned to cook and keep house and garden, and I take care of Muriel.  I love it." So that night before I went to sleep I thought about his question, and I said, "Now, Lord, this is fine.  This is Your assignment, and I like it, but if the coach puts the player on the bench, and it means He doesn't need him in the game.  Now, You're under no obligation to tell me, Lord, but if You'd like to share with me, I'd love to know why You didn't need me in the game."  And I had a troubled night that night.   The next morning – at that time, Muriel could still walk – sort of wobbly, so we'd take a walk out in the neighborhood, and I'd have to hold her hand to be sure she wouldn't fall.  We were walking along a narrow sidewalk with a high embankment on one side and a very busy thoroughfare on the other.  And, fortunately, we never met anybody there, or somebody would have to get out in that traffic.  But this day I heard footsteps behind me.  I looked back, and here was a local derelict weaving along behind us.  I said, well, he'll never catch up, but he did.  And he just sort of wobbled out into the traffic and back up in front of us, and he turned around and looked at us up and down.  And then he said, "I likes that.  I really likes that.  That's good.  That's real good."  And then he turned around, and off down the street in front of us, mumbling to himself, "That's good.  That's good.  I likes it." Well, we got back to our yard and sitting there in the garden, and I was chuckling over it.  You know, I'm happy for the affirmation.  And then, all of a sudden, I said to myself or who knows, I said, "God, could you talk through a half-inebriated old derelict?"  And I said yes, it's God that says, "I likes that."  And, Lord, if you like it, that's all I need. Dennis: Yeah, yeah.  You know, I read that story, and I thought, "Isn't it interesting how God could use such an unlikely source?"  If he could speak through a donkey, he could speak through a man who is drunk.  So you don't have any sense, as a result, that you're on the bench; that you're on the sidelines? Robertson: I do have a great sense that He didn't need me in that game, but I never did think I was essential, anyway, you know?  In the big scope of things, what is my little contribution?  God doesn't need me.   Dennis: It's not been easy loving Muriel since that time.  I mean, you share a story about how Muriel had an accident near the toilet, and you were cleaning up the toilet, and you lost it with her. Robertson: Yes.  You're saying that I have not always acted in love.   Dennis: I didn't say that.  You wrote about it. Robrtson:  I understand, but that's what your question was. Dennis: What happened that day in the bathroom? Robertson: Well, that was back when we hadn't gone to diapers, and she was still – tried to make it in time to the toilet, but she hadn't made it, so I was kneeling there trying to clean up the mess, and she kept trying to help and making matters worse and kept moving her feet and her legs, and I said, "Stand still."  And she didn't stand still.  So just that short temper, I just slapped her on the calf.  Not really a hard slap, but she was startled, because it had never happened before.  I had never touched her.  And it startled me.  And I just dropped there on my knees in that mess and pled with her for forgiveness.  Well, she couldn't understand words anymore than she could speak them, but I pled with her for forgiveness, and then I decided I better turn to the Lord, and I cried out to Him to forgive me. Bob: Robertson, you know that a man – there's great fulfillment in your work when you're employed vocationally, when you're doing what you feel like God called you to do and what He gifted you to do.  There is a sense of reward and accomplishment and fulfillment.  To make a decision to lay that aside and go home and do what God's calling you to do now, it's got to feel a little bit like being moved out of your natural gifting and strength to the sidelines, like you said.  There have to be days when you go, "I want to be back in the hunt." Robertson: Yes, but remember, Bob, I didn't think up that question.  It never occurred to me until that freshman asked me.  That got me on that track to thinking just the one night until God gave me the answer the next morning.  So, no, I didn't, really, and maybe occasionally when decisions are made in the school that I wouldn't have made that way. [laughter]  Dennis: You know, I'm thinking, Bob, of how, by all practical observations, to the average human being, you'd think here's a man who has been sidelined.  And yet if you think about it, his story has been told to more people.  We've shared it here on the broadcast probably two or three times to several million people.  We have shared it at FamilyLife Marriage Conferences.  It's been shared at Promise Keepers event.  I know personally that I've shared it at a Promise Keepers event with more than 60,000 men at Texas Stadium a number of years ago and then again in Colorado Springs to another 10,000, 12,000 men, and, Robertson, when I read that story the first time, I got on the phone, and I called Barbara.  And, Bob, I could tell this story right now but, instead, I wonder if we couldn't go to a clip where Barbara shares what her response was when I told her your story, Robertson, and read her your words of resigning from Columbia Bible College and Seminary to go home and care for your wife, Muriel.  Barbara: [from audiotape.]  I was standing in the laundry room, and I was ironing.  Dennis called on the phone, and he read me that story, and I stood by the phone, and I was watering the clothes, like I'm watering the notes right now, and he said, "Should I tell that story?"  And I said, "Yes."  I said, "I just have one question."  I said, "I need to know will you love me like that?"  And he said,  "Yes."   There's not a woman in this room who doesn't want to know the answer to that question.  There's not a woman in this room who doesn't need to hear from her husband "Yes, I will love you like that."  That is a demonstration of commitment and of covenant.  It's what we were made for, it's what we long for, it's what we need.  God built it in us. Dennis: Robertson, as Barbara was retelling that story, I still remember where I was standing when I called her, and I was unprepared for her question.  It really caught me off guard.   Robertson:  I imagine.  Dennis: You've told the story a number of times – this is what women want to know, isn't it? Robertson: You know, I've not told the story a great many times, but I've written about it, and what you have said has happened over and over again.  I can't tell you how many times I've heard that same scenario.  But, unlike your scenario, often, as it's reported to me, his response is "Don't put me on the spot."  Sometimes it's half jest; often it's dead serious.   Dennis: Well, when Barbara asked me the question, I was stunned for a moment.  I mean, I was sharing a story, and it was obviously emotional for me to share it.  Her emotional response, first of all, took me off guard, and I remember saying to her, "Yes.  With God as my witness, I would hope I would be that man."  And He is the one who enables, isn't he?  I'm looking across the table at you, and you've shared, over the past couple of days, He has been the one who has enabled you to make that commitment. There is a verse that I have been wanting to share over the past couple of days on the broadcast that I want to read here.  It's found in Job, chapter 23, verses 10 through 12 – "But He knows the way I take.  When He has tried me, I shall come forth as gold.  My foot has held fast to His path.  I have kept His way and not turned aside.  I have not departed from the command of His lips.  I have treasured the words of His mouth more than my necessary food."   When you think about hunger, whether it's ambition, whether it's career or a job and what we would characterize as success in life, this book, the Bible, this talks about how to live in the blessing, how to live life as God designed it.  And when you step outside of it, when you break your promise, you're stepping outside of that blessing.  You're a blessed man today because you have stayed within the confines of the commands of this book, and you are attempting to live life according to His Word. Robertson: Well, I am blessed, that I will say – not that I deserve it, but I am blessed. Bob: That's part 2 of a conversation recorded back in 1999 with Dr. Robertson McQuilkin.  At that time, Dennis, he had been at home caring for his wife for almost a decade, and she lived another four years before she went into eternity.  He was faithful to care for her all the way to the end. Dennis: Yes.  Think of celebrating a golden anniversary in a setting like that.  And the question I have for the listener is do you want to be a blessed man?  Do you want to be a blessed woman?  The little statement, don't let it run past you too quickly, this book, the Scripture, living according to the boundaries that it places and the relationship with Almighty God that it represents, that's how you live a blessed life.  Even in the midst of tragedies, deep disappointment, and profound suffering, you can be a blessed man, a blessed woman. Bob: And one of the questions is are we ready for those trials when they come?  You know, Dr. McQuilkin was ready because of his relationship with Christ that had been built over the years.  The question is what kind of foundation we going to have when the winds come in our direction, and one of the reasons we've encouraged couples to attend a Weekend to Remember Marriage Conference for many years is because that's part of how you build your foundation.  You keep coming back to what the Scriptures teach about marriage, about resolving conflict, about sexual intimacy, about communication, about what a husband's responsibility is, what a wife's responsibility is. These are topics that get addressed each weekend at our FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conference, and we're about to launch our fall season.  We want to encourage our listeners – if you've never attended one of these conferences, go on our website at FamilyLife.com, or call 1-800-FLTODAY, find out when the conference is coming to a city near where you live, and make plans now to be a part of that weekend, to make the investment of time and resources to get away and build into the foundation of your marriage so that when you face challenges and struggles, you're ready for them. Again, if you'd like more information about the Weekend to Remember Marriage Conference, you'll find it online at FamilyLife.com, or you can call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, you can register online or by phone, and remember when you get in touch with us as well to consider getting a copy of the book that Dr. McQuilkin wrote about his love for Muriel.  A book called "A Promise Kept."  It will give you additional insight into his relationship with his wife and his love for her. You can request a copy of the book from our website at FamilyLife.com or call 1-800-FLTODAY to find out how you can have a copy of the book, "A Promise Kept," sent to you. We hope you will keep in mind that FamilyLife Today is a listener-supported ministry.  That means that it's folks like you who not only listen to this program but who, from time to time, will call and make a donation to help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today.  You are the ones who keep us on the air on this station and on other stations across the country.  You need to know that summer months are often a difficult time for ministries like ours.  The expenses of operating the ministry stay pretty much the same, but we see a decline in donations during the summer months, and that has been the case again this summer. So if there is anything you can do to help with a donation to support FamilyLife Today this month, we would love to hear from you, and we want you to be sure to request a copy of Dennis and Barbara Rainey's book, "Moments With You."  It's a daily devotional guide for couples that we'd love to send you as a thank you gift when you make a donation of any amount this month for the ministry of FamilyLife Today. If you're donating online, and you'd like a copy of the book "Moments With You," type the word "You," y-o-u, into the keycode box you'll find on the donation form, or call 1-800-FLTODAY, make your donation over the phone and simply request a copy of the devotional book for couples, "Moments With You."  We're happy to send it to you, and we do appreciate your support of FamilyLife Today. Now, tomorrow we'll continue to hear from Dr. Robertson McQuilkin as he describes what life was like and how it changed when he came home to care for his wife, Muriel.  I hope you can be with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow.  __________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com          

A Promise Kept (Part 1) - Robertson McQuilkinA Promise Kept (Part 2) - Robertson McQuilkinA Promise Kept (Part 3) - Robertson McQuilkinA Promise Kept (Part 4) - Robertson McQuilkinFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. A Promise KeptDay 3 of 4 Guest:                        Robertson McQuilkin From the series:       What God Has Done______________________________________________________________________Bob: In the late 1980s, Robertson McQuilkin's wife Muriel was first diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease.  Over time, her condition became worse and worse.  Here is Dr. McQuilkin. Robertson: It's like I was traveling away from her in the olden days, and I would recount our times together, our love times, our fun times, our crisis times.  I'd rehearse those, and it was just delightful.  It was like I was there.  I was living it over again.  And so now I'm on a little longer journey.   Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, August 13th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll hear about a long journey and about a promise kept on today's program.   And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition.  Often, when I have theh opportunity to speak at one of our FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences, which I'm going to be doing in Philadelphia, by the way, coming up in November.  I'm looking forward to going in early for a cheesesteak and then spending a weekend at the conference in Philadelphia. Dennis: We'll have more than 60 of these events throughout the fall.  And I just want to say, Bob, and excuse me for interrupting here, but … Bob: That's all right.  I'll just think about the cheesesteak, you go ahead. Dennis: I know, I know, you're all over the cheesesteak and trying to find a Cheesecake Factory to go visit.  Number 70 – or which one is it now? Bob: It will be close to that by the time we get there, I think. Dennis:  Number 70 – think about that, folks.  Anyway, this is serious.  We've got to get – we've got to have intervention for Bob, I think. But, you know, I run into listeners all the time who have been listening to FamilyLife Today, some for a few months, some for several years who still have not been to a Weekend to Remember Marriage Conference or those who went a number of years ago and whose lives have dramatically changed because of just the water that's under the bridge.  And it's time, folks, it's time to go back, it's time to get a wheel alignment and to go take a weekend, a Friday night, all day Saturday, half-day Sunday, to sit and soak and have some fun, build some romance, build your relationship.  You're not going to be asked to do anything publicly.  You're just going to have a blast together as a couple.   I just want to ask you a question – when it the last time you really did something great for your marriage?  And if that means going to Philadelphia to hear Bob, then join him at the Cheesecake Factory and get over there, but get to one of our 60 Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences this fall and take advantage of what I believe is the finest biblical training in the world on marriage and family. Bob: You feel pretty strongly about this, don't you? Dennis: I do.  I've given my adult life to strengthen marriages and families, and I don't know of a better weekend for couples to spend.  It's going to enrich their marriage with the right thing. Bob: Well, what I was starting to say was that whenever I get the chance to speak at one of these Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences, I tell folks about Dr. Robertson McQuilkin and share with them his example of sacrificial, unconditional, 'til death do us part love that he demonstrated for his wife, Muriel.  Dennis: One of the things you've said that has kept you going are all the memories – memories of her wit and kind of how she would flash back at you.  And there is one story I want you to share with our listeners where she rebuked you.  That's just a classic story that I think points out the differences between men and women in a beautiful way. Robertson: I think you're referring to the time we were – in the evening in bed discussing some earth-shaking theme, which I do not remember.  And I was just demolishing her arguments with superb logic.   Dennis: Are you saying you were arguing with her? Robertson: Discussing.  If I ever do seem to be prevailing in a situation like that, then I start feeling bad about it.  But she didn't wait for any sympathy or pity.  She just reared up on one elbow and flashed those gray-green eyes at me, and she said, "Well, let me tell you something.  Logic's not everything, and feeling's not nothing." Dennis: When I read that story, I thought, "That is a great statement," especially for a man to hear.   Bob: You know, those stories, and Dennis talked about how there is comfort in those memories, but I would think, mixed in with the comfort of those memories, would be an ongoing sense of loss.  I mean, that's how she was.  But that's not how she's been over the last seven years. Robertson: No.  It's like I was traveling away from her in the olden days, and I would recount our times together, our love times, our fun times, our crisis times.  I'd rehearse those, and it was just delightful.  It was like I was there.  I was living it over again.  And so now I'm on a little longer journey, or she's on a journey, and, no, it's pure pleasure to recount those. Now, if I was wire up, if I was programmed in my head so that I was thinking about, "Oh, but I don't have this anymore," "Oh, but what if it hadn't been this way," then, sure, I could get bent out of shape.  And I don't take any credit for it.  I give the Lord credit for anything good that I ever think or do, but I don't feel any immediate intervention on God's part.  It's just that's not the way I am.  I know you'd like to have me feel an agony and a pain and a wrestling and a battle, because that would help a lot of people, and I wish I could, but, frankly, that's not been my experience. Bob: Well, you don't ever go to bed at night and pray and say, "Lord, just tomorrow, one day, where it's like it used to be." Robertson: I've never done that.  When I go to bed at night I thank the Lord for my sweetheart, and she's just lying there – actually, when she's asleep, it's just like the old days and I say, "Lord, keep watch over in the night and don't let her have any bad dreams.  Speak peace to her spirit."  My daughter, Marty, has a theory that the Holy Spirit bypasses the mental and the – since her brain is all tangled up, He just bypasses all that and speaks to her spirit.  Now, I don't know what the theology of that is, but I like it. Dennis: You know, in 1992, you did have a down period, though.  You had resigned your seminary post two years earlier, your eldest son had been killed in a diving accident, and your joy, in your own words, had "drained away."  And you said that your passion and your love for God had frozen over.  It took a retreat for you in a mountain hideaway to refresh that, and in the process of that you said, "The heavy heart is lifted on the wings of praise."  Explain that to our listeners. Robertson: I had discovered it earlier in life, but I'm a slow learner, and when I had these heavy blows, I wasn't asking God why.  I never asked why.  That's His business, and we're in a fallen world, and I often say, "Why not?  Why not me?  They're dying of cancer?"  So that wasn't a problem with me.  But I was just bunged up emotionally – all these poundings, and it was more like the passion had gone out of our relationship.  It was more like your number-one lover was silent, and I knew I was in … Dennis: You're speaking of your love for God at this point. Robertson: Yes, yes, and so I knew I was in trouble, and whenever I'm in trouble, big trouble, I try to get away for a few days of fasting and prayer.  So I went away, and it took me about 24 hours to pull my focus off of my own traumas and troubles and problems.  My faith at that point was more like resignation. Dennis: What do you mean by that? Robertson: In other words, "I'm resigned, okay, God, whatever you want, that's okay."  But it's not faith, it's not a buoyant tight connection with God.  It's not joy in your confidence and trust.  So – I finally got my thoughts away from that as I read the Psalms and as I sang the hymns.  I took a hymnbook with me.  And as I did and got my focus on Him and began to list all the things about Him I liked, all the wonderful things He's done in the world, all the wonderful things He's done for me, that's when I discovered a heavy heart lifts on the wings of praise.  So it was through praise that I was reconnected.  Of course, He'd never broken the connection, but I sort of got deaf. Dennis: You know, as you were talking, I was thinking about Psalm 103 – "Bless the Lord, O my soul, and all that is within me bless His Holy Name.  Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget none of His benefits who pardons all your iniquities, who heals all your diseases, who redeems your life from the pit, who crowns you with lovingkindness and compassion, who satisfies your years with good things so that your youth is renewed like the eagle."  Now, you just hit on a profound theological principle that's taught throughout the Bible, and it's the theological principle of remembrance – that we need to recall what God has done, and if we forget what God has done, we'll forget to trust Him today.  We'll forget who He is, and we'll grumble in our tents. Robertson: I started to say, "Amen," but actually it's bad news if we do that, and that's one of the things God has been teaching me in recent times.  Back in the early days before I resigned, He taught me about love from a different end.  It was how much Muriel wanted to be with me; how much she depended on me; how she expressed all day long her affection for me, and her gratitude for every little thing. Dennis: Actually, she would go in search of you, right? Robertson: During that stage – we were half a mile away, the office from the home, and she would walk.  She's a speedwalker.  Sometimes she walked up to 10 times a day, round trip.  That would be 10 miles. Dennis: In search of you? Robertson: In search – coming to my office to find me – where I might be inaccessible, but she would come.  And one time I was helping her with her shoes, taking off her shoes at night, and her feet were bloody from all that walking.  And I thought to myself, "God, is that how I love you?  I must be with you no matter what it costs; to constantly express my love and my appreciation and my thanksgiving and my trust."  I'm secure in Him, and I asked Him to help me love Him the way she loved me. But now, of course, that's all gone.  I think she may be a little more content when I'm around, but she doesn't really know anything much.  What's subterranean, we don't know, but … Dennis: … she doesn't speak to you? Robertson: Not for about seven years, six years.  So He's taught me a lot about love for Him in my relationship with Muriel. Dennis: There was a moment, however, on a Valentine's Day, and the reason Valentine's Day is so important is it goes all the way back to when you proposed to her back in 1947. Robertson: Right, that's right. Dennis: Yes, so Valentine's Day had a very special meaning in your relationship. Robertson: Very special.  Actually, if you had a few hours, I'd tell you about some of those Valentine's Days.  Some of them were really extraordinary, but she had come to the place where she wasn't – couldn't say a sentence, and even words were just occasional, and they didn't always make good sense.  Sometimes "yes" when she meant "no," and so forth.   This particular Valentine's eve, I was contemplating an article I'd just read that said in Alzheimer's care, it's the caregiver that's the victim.  And I thought, "Hm, strange, I don't feel like a victim."  I never did feel like a victim.  I wonder why?  And she doesn't feel like a victim."  We sort of missed that.  And then I began rehearsing all these Valentine stories.   The next morning I was on my exercycle at the foot of the bed – I threw that away, I can't stand it. [laughter]  Bob: Amen. Robertson: But I do run.  At any rate, I was then on an exercycle, and when she woke up there, as she often did during those days, as soon as she saw me, she'd break into this big smile and, of course, that made my day.  Actually, when she smiles, I hang a flag out front so that my friends and neighbors can tell that's a smile day.  So this was a smile day, she smiled.  And while she was looking at me and smiling, she paused, and just as clear as a crystal chime, she said, "Love, love, love."   Oh, I hopped off the – I came over and hugged her, and I said, "Oh, honey, you really do love me, don't you?"  And she couldn't do words like she wanted to, of course.  She was looking for an affirmation, and she said I'm nice.  And almost the last words she ever said – about six or seven years ago. Bob: Do you wonder if – and I've heard this – I've heard of people who have been in comas for a long period of time and right before they go home they come back out, and they talk, and they're lucid.  Do you wonder, do you think ahead and think, "I wonder if I'll have that?" Robertson: One time when we were talking – my sister and I were talking about Muriel.  And – of course, she didn't understand, didn't know anything – and Amy said, "You know, when we get to heaven I wonder if she's going to say, 'You turkeys didn't think I knew what was going on, but I heard everything you said.'"   [laughter]  But, you see, the coma experience is quite common, at least you hear of it often, but that's a totally different physiological thing than having your neurons in tangles up there.  So, really, there's no connecting going on.  Of course, I'd love to have it, but I'm not waiting for it. Bob: Not holding out hope. Robertson: No. Bob: You know, it was not longer after Muriel died that Robertson wrote another article about her homegoing, and we have a link on our website at FamilyLife.com to the article that he wrote so that listeners can reflect on that transition in his life as well. I think the thing that just stands out and has always stood out to us is the remarkable character.  And, you know, Robertson always thought, "I'm not doing anything extraordinary or special.  I'm just doing what I promised to do."  And I guess the thing that makes it remarkable and extraordinary is because so few people today would do it with good cheer and with grace and with compassion and with sacrifice as he did it. Dennis:  And, you know, Bob, what he was talking about there at the end was really missing a relationship, missing being connected, heart-to-heart, mind-to-mind, soul-to-soul with Muriel, and that's what marriage is.  It's the mingling of two souls.  It's not just two bodies coming together.  Marriage is a commitment body, soul, and spirit, of two people to one another, husband and wife.   And I just want to take you back where we started the beginning of this broadcast when I exhorted our listeners to come to a Weekend to Remember because what we will help you do is reconnect body, soul, and spirit to one another because that's what makes a great marriage.  And if you haven't been to one of our conferences in a few years, or if you've never been, or if you're a single and contemplating marriage, there is no better way to invest in your marriage and the future of your family than to spend a weekend with us and to get the biblical blueprints for how two people can truly connect like Robertson was talking about.   Bob: We've got all of the information about the upcoming season of FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences on our website at FamilyLife.com.  It lists not only Philadelphia, where I'll be speaking, but, actually, we've got conferences East to West, North to South.  I was looking last night.  We're going to be in Palm Beach Gardens in Florida, and in Blaine, Washington, which is about as far north as you can go without being in Canada.  We're going to be in San Diego, California, and I saw we're going to be in New York state as well. If you'd like to find out when the conference is coming to a city near where you live, or a city you'd like to travel to, go to our website, FamilyLife.com, or call 1-800-FLTODAY, get the weekend blocked out on your calendar and then make reservations to attend one of our FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences when it comes to a city near you this fall. And be sure when you get in touch with us to request a copy of Dr. Robertson McQuilkin's book called "A Promise Kept."  I know couples who have given copies of this book as an anniversary gift.  It really is a great telling of a great love story, and you can find out how to request a copy when you go online at FamilyLife.com, or you can call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, and we'll make arrangements to have a copy of the book sent out to you. And then let me also ask you when you do get in touch with us, if you are able to help with a donation this month of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today, we would like to send you a copy of Dennis and Barbara Rainey's devotional book, "Moments With You."  FamilyLife Today is listener-supported, and it's folks like you who help keep us on the air in this city and in other cities all across the country, and if you do make a donation this month, and you make it online, when you come to the keycode box on the donation form, just type the word "you" in there, y-o-u, and we'll know to send you a copy of the devotional from Dennis and Barbara, or call 1-800-FLTODAY.  You can make your donation over the phone.  That's 1-800-358-6329 and just ask for a copy of the devotional book from Dennis and Barbara Rainey, "Moments With You." And, again, let me say thank you for your financial support of the ministry.  We appreciate your partnership with us. You know, as we conclude today, one of the things that I think most impressed us in our conversation with Dr. McQuilkin was just his commitment to perseverance to finishing well and to doing the right thing, and he wrote a prayer that he included in his book, "A Promise Kept," called "Let Me Get Home Before Dark."   We asked him while he was here to share that prayer with our listeners.  Here again is Dr. McQuilkin.  Robertson:              It's sundown, Lord, the shadows of my life stretch back into the dimness of                        the years long spent.            I fear not death, for that grim foe betrays himself at last, thrusting me forever into life, life with You, unsoiled and free.            But I do fear                        I fear the dark specter may come too soon                        Or do I mean too late?                        That I should end before I finish or finish but not well?                        That I should stain Your honor.            Shame your name, grieve your loving heart.            Few, they tell me, finish well.            Lord, let me get home before dark.             The darkness of the spirit grown mean and small            Fruit shriveled on the vine bitter to the taste of my companions            Burdened to be borne by those brave few who love me still.            No, Lord, let the fruit grow lush and sweet            A joy to all who taste            Spirit's sign of God at work            Stronger, fuller, brighter at the end            Lord, let me get home before dark.             The darkness of tattered gifts, rust-locked, half spent or ill spent            A life that once was used of God now set aside.            Grief for glories gone or fretting for a task God never gave            Mourning in the hollow chambers of memory            Gazing on the faded banners of victories long gone            Cannot I run well unto the end?              Lord, let me get home before dark.             The outer me decays, I do not fret or ask reprieve            The ebbing strength but weans me from Mother Earth and grows me up for            heaven.            I do not cling to shadows cast by immortality,            I do not patch the scaffold lent to build the real eternal me,            I do not clutch about me my cocoon, vainly struggling to hold hostage a free spirit            pressing to be born.            But will I reach the gate in lingering pain            Body distorted, grotesque            Or will it be a mind wandering untethered among life fantasies or grim terrors?            Of your grace, Father, I humbly ask            Let me get home before dark. Bob: FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow.  ___________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com          

A Promise Kept (Part 1) - Robertson McQuilkinA Promise Kept (Part 2) - Robertson McQuilkinA Promise Kept (Part 3) - Robertson McQuilkinA Promise Kept (Part 4) - Robertson McQuilkinFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.  A Promise KeptDay 4 of 4 Guest:                        Robertson McQuilkin From the series:       Our Future  Bob: What's the right response, the biblical response, when someone you love has been diagnosed with  Alzheimer's disease?  Do you take care of that person?  Do you hire someone else to be the caregiver?  For Dr. Robertson McQuilkin the decision was simple.  He chose to take care of his wife Muriel.  He realized it was his responsibility, not a responsibility that his children should bear. Robertson: I've told Marty, who is my oldest daughter and who stays with Muriel when I have to leave town, I said, "Marty, now I do not want you to rearrange your life to care for your mother if I die before she does.  I've got it fixed so you can put her in a care institution."  She said, "I'm not going to do it.  God put me here to take care of her."  And I said, "Marty, I really want all of the children to go on with their life, and Mom won't know anything, so just" – she said, "Well, Dad, when you're dead you won't have any say, will you?" [laughter] Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, August 14th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll talk today with Dr. Robertson McQuilkin about a Christian's responsibility in providing long-term care for a loved one.  Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Thanks for joining us on the Thursday edition.  As we have been reflecting this week on an interview that we actually recorded nine years ago, Dennis, with Dr. Robertson McQuilkin, the former president of the Columbia International University and Seminary, who stepped down in 1990 to care for his wife, Muriel, after she had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease.  I've been thinking about the alcove down the hall from the studio where we have pictures of Dr. McQuilkin, and where we have a lighthouse that stands there to commemorate his sacrificial love for his wife, and we've had the opportunity over the years to honor a number of people who have demonstrated that same kind of sacrificial love and give them an award that bears his name. Dennis: Right, and that lighthouse, Bob, that's down in the hall from here, stands on a 50-pound chunk of polished granite, and we picked out that granite because of its hardness, toughness, weight, and just the sheer mass that it represents, because the story we've been listening to all week here is a story of a light being set on a hill.  It's the love of Christ being demonstrated between a husband and his wife when his wife couldn't care for him, couldn't speak with him, couldn't connect with him emotionally and spiritually. And, you know, we have a lot of privileges here on FamilyLife Today, and when we get a chance to tell a story that exalts Jesus Christ; that talks practically about a tough situation where a husband fulfills his promise and his pledge to care for his wife, Bob, it just doesn't get any better than that, and that's why we created that award for Dr. McQuilkin and, as you mentioned, we've had a chance to give it to a half a dozen other people and honor them for toughness in their commitment and really keeping their covenant.  That's what marriage is all about. Bob: We're going to hear part 4 right now of the interview that we recorded back in 1999 with Dr. Robertson McQuilkin and, again, at that time his wife Muriel was still alive.  She went home to be with the Lord in 2003.  It was a real privilege to be able to interact with him about his selfless sacrificial love for her. Bob: We've talked about this all week.  We've talked about your decision to step down, to come home to be the full-time caretaker for your wife.  We have folks listening to the broadcast who have made different decisions about care for a loved one, whether it's a husband, or a wife, an aging mother or father.  They have chosen to bring in professional help or to provide for full-time care in a nursing facility.  Do you think that's wrong for somebody to make that choice? Robertson: Of course not.  The touchstone for me is what is best for her.  When there comes a time, either because of my health or hers, that someone else can care for her better than I, then painful as it will be to be separated – because, you know, her loving presence is there all day every day.  I would miss that.  But that's the touchstone.  What would love do in this case?  For example, if the roles were reversed, Muriel couldn't lift me.  She couldn't put me in a wheelchair.  She'd hang on as long as she could, but roles are different.  It came at a time in life when I could do it.  So, no.  In fact, this is just a story.  I'm not pushing an agenda, I'm not setting an example.  I mean, you can kind of pick and choose and try to make something of it, but I'm just telling a story, and that's the way of joy for us. Dennis: Yes, I think that's healthy for you to say – you don't have an agenda here – because, Bob, I think we have a generation of men and women who are part of the baby boom generation who are watching their parents age, and they do wonder – what is God's will here?  How can I best care for my mother, my father and, in fact, I'm asking that question myself.  My mom is 87 years of age, still able to live in her home, primarily because my brother lives near her.  I think that's a good standard you've given us – the standard of what is best for the object of the love. Robertson: Well, Dennis, you bring in the parental thing.  I've told Marty, who is my eldest daughter and who stays with Muriel when I have to leave town.  I said, "Marty, now I do not want you to rearrange your life to care for your mother if I die before she does.  I've got it fixed so you can put her in a care institution."  She said, "I'm not going to do it.  God put me here to take care of her."  And I said, "Marty, I really want all of the children to go on with their life, and Mom won't know anything, so just" – she said, "Well, Dad, when you're dead you won't have any say, will you?" [laughter] Bob: She is a chip off the old block, isn't she?  The oak did not fall far from the tree in that case. Dennis: Exactly right.  Let's go back to when you first found out she was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease.  If someone could have sat down with you at that point and told you three or four things … Robertson: … a couple of things … Dennis: … yes, what would you say to that person who today is maybe facing this brand-new? Robertson: This is what I say to people who – of course, everywhere I go people tell me their stories, and if they ask me for my opinion, I say, "Well, the first thing is to realize that no two experiences are the same."  The time of onset, the length of time, the rate of downward progression, the functions that are lost – all are different.  About the only thing that's the same is memory loss.  But, from then on, it's unpredictable.  I tried, early on, to read what my doctor gave me – the medical papers on this – and tried to plot my life accordingly – how long she was going to live, what was going to happen next and so forth – none of it panned out that way, it was all different.  So don't build your plans and expectancies on this happening like someone else.  You just have to learn as you go along. The second thing I tell people, and this is so critical, Dennis – it's your expectancies that will ruin you and her and your relationship.  In other words, she's losing function, right?  But if you always lag a month or six months behind in what you're pushing on her, what you're trying to get her to do and so forth – it's dreadful.  I remember one time when Marty said, "Dad, you're not holding Mom to it.  She could remember if she tried."  And I said, "Honey, she can't."  And when Marty came to that position, where she recognized that Muriel can't – that she wants to but she can't – she came to such peace and overflowing love in that relationship.  So expectancies – this has destroyed many – and it will destroy your own peace.   Dennis: Yes, let me read a verse here that came to my mind while you were talking – Romans 15 – "Now, we who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those without strength and not just please ourselves." Robertson: Amen. Dennis: If you think about what he's saying, Bob, it's no different in a new marriage.  There are couples who start out who don't have the capability.  They can't.  They are unable, and what he has come to is he's come to the point of embracing Muriel's limitations, her weaknesses, and you're strong – "be strong in faith"… Robertson: …"and hold them." Dennis: Yes. Bob: You said on an earlier broadcast that you made the decision when you received the diagnosis not to pursue experimental procedures, protocols, vitamins, trips to Mexico, getting rid of the aluminum in the house, all of the things you had read about or heard about.  Why not?  Why not see if there's maybe something out there that could prolong the interaction? Robertson: I think it's an individual choice.  I have friends with other illnesses as well who have spent the last years of their life, which they should have been savoring, running here, traveling there, getting hopes up on this, getting hopes up on that, cancer, whatever – and in the end it wasn't any different from others.  And that's where I'm coming from.  Other people have other backgrounds where they're coming from.  But, for me, that's where I'm coming from, and I'm saying, "I just don't have to spend the rest of my life tracking down everything."  So the medical people in my world, I said, "I'll just go along with what they have to say." Bob: You know, you haven't had to face what some people have to face with a prolonged illness, where there are respirators or where there are feeding tubes or where there is care that goes beyond what you are able to provide today for Muriel.  If that day were to come, do you know what you'd do? Robertson: Oh, yes.  Muriel and I agreed many decades ago that when we come to that last descent to the grave, and God is calling us home, we pledged to one another that we would not use what is called "heroic means."  She's on "no code" as far as the hospital is concerned – no resuscitation, no artificial means to sustain life. So, yes, but it might not come in that kind of a package.  I was interviewing a talk show host on the West Coast.  It was supposed to be about another book on ethics, which I had written, but he'd just read an article in "Christianity Today" telling part of my story, and that's what he wanted to talk about.   So, all of a sudden, he said, "Open line."  I didn't know it was an open line show.  And this lady came on and pretty aggressively she says, "Why don't you let her go?"  And I said, "What do you mean let her go?"  And she said, "Well, do you feed her?"  And I said, "Yes."  She says, "Well, why don't you quit?  She'd be a lot better off with Jesus."  So I'd never do that, would I?  I don't know.  I wouldn't do it just like that, but several years ago I red that the next stage for Muriel will be that she forgets how to swallow, and we'll have to put a stomach PEG in.  Well, is that part of heroics?  Not very heroic – five-minute outpatient operation.  And what am I going to do?  I don't spent a lot of time thinking about it, but when I do, it's a dilemma.  I don't know the answer.  Knowing me, I just may put in the PEG.  But what I'm saying is God has provided the wisdom for each choice until now, and I'm just going to trust Him to guide me at that time. Bob: Folks who are regular caregivers to Alzheimer's patients are encouraged to have time out of the house once a week, twice a week, when somebody else watches your wife, in this case, and you just get away to clear your head and take a walk.  Do you do that? Robertson: Well, you see, once again, if I answer the question truthfully, somebody might take it as a model, and it's not a model.  But I've never felt the need of that.  In fact, when I'm away, I have a longing to be back with her, if anything, as much if not more than what it used to be in the olden days.  I just like to be there with her.  I want to get back to her.   However, I'm no judge at it, because when I step down, I expect to be a full-time homemaker, nothing else.  But she changed enough, and my circumstances changed enough, so that I could keep my speaking engagements for two or three years in advance.  I didn't have to cancel any of them, which I thought I was going to cancel them all, because my sister first, and now my daughter, come and stay when I travel.  So I can't judge.  I am away quite often for no more than three days usually – two or three days, and that is a break.  So if I say I don't need a break, well, wait a minute, how do I know? Bob: You get breaks from time to time, yes. Dennis: One of the things our listeners don't get a chance to see is the facial expression on our guests, and on one of the earlier days on the broadcast this week we called home while Marty, his daughter, is taking care of Muriel.  And I just wish our listeners, Bob, could have seen Robertson's face when Marty answered the phone.  The first question that Robertson asked, and he asked it and leaned forward in the microphone, and there was – I can't even explain it, but it was a glow, it was an expectancy, but he asked this question – "Has she smiled today?"  And you could tell he had missed that smile.  That's true, isn't it? Robertson: Oh, yes. Dennis: That's important to you even now, isn't it? Robertson: Oh, yes, because it happens when our eyes connect.  Usually it's vacant but once in a while we connect, and she really is looking at you.  And after she starts looking at you, she smiles, that's great. Dennis: And you put the flag out on the front porch to let your neighbors know that she smiled today. Robertson: That's the way it is.  It doesn't fly as much as it used to. Dennis: Let me ask you a question – what are you going to do when there's no flag to fly? Robertson: I'll just have to trust the Lord for that day.  And it is much less now than it was, but as long as He – I have asked, on occasion, Lord, let me keep her a little longer.  I really want her. Dennis: Yes, in fact, I want to read something to our listeners.  This is the – well, it's the last page in the book that he's written.  It's entitled, "My Precious."   Well, you know what?  I'd rather you read it, I think.  You wrote it.  I think you might be able to read it a little more effectively than how I would read it, Robertson.  So page 85, share it with our listeners. Robertson: "Twenty-two summers ago, Muriel and I began our journey into the twilight.  It's midnight now, at least for her.  Sometimes I wonder when dawn will break.  Even the dread Alzheimer's disease isn't supposed to attack so early and torment so long.  Yet, in her silent world, Muriel is so content, so lovable, I sometimes pray, "Please, Lord, could you let me keep her a little longer?"  If Jesus took her home, how I would miss her gentle, sweet presence.  Oh, yes, there are times when I get irritated but not often.  It doesn't make sense.  And, besides, I love to care for her.  She is my precious." Dennis: You know, Robertson, as you were reading that, I was thinking that's a much better picture of love than anything Hollywood ever created – ever!  That's love right there – loving someone who really is incapable of loving you back.  But you've loved her with the love that God has loved you, and you've cared for her, and you can tell it's the real deal.  And I just want to thank you again.  I've thanked you almost every day you're on the broadcast, but I want to thank you again for making the journey over here.  You had to travel to get over here and to share your story and Muriel's.  But thanks for being a great lover of your wife and for being a covenant keeper, and I want to make a promise to you.  As long as God enables us, we're going to tell your story at our FamilyLife conferences and here on the broadcast.  Robertson: Thank you, Dennis.  You have a wonderful gift of affirmation, even if it sometimes borders on – what shall I say – exaggeration.  But I appreciate your affirmation and the honor of being with you on this great program. Bob: You can't listen back to that without, once again, thinking here is a guy we can all learn from, can't we? Dennis: Oh, yes, yes, and need to learn from.  I mean, some of us have gotten angry with our spouses over the most trivial issues and things, and here is a man who comes alongside us said, "Would you kindly get your head up?  Would you realize the privilege you have to care for another human being for a lifetime?" I just was listening to him.  He began there at the end saying, you know, "Twenty-two summers ago, Muriel and I began our journey toward twilight, and it's now midnight for her."  He cared for her all the way to the end, and we need love stories like this. And, Bob, I just want to say thank you to listeners who support our broadcast, because when they give, that's what they're making possible, and in a very real way in a culture that doesn't promote selfless love, that doesn't promote lifelong commitment, and covenant-keeping love.  I think it's the right thing.  It is so right, it is so wholesome, so good, and so needed in this generation.  We need to be reminded that love is a covenant, and I think I just want to encourage our listeners when you go home tonight or even if you are home, just maybe turn off the TV and just go sit on the couch together and just say, "You know what?  I'm going to tell you I love you again and if I had it to do all over again, I would.  I'd marry you all over again, 1,000 times out of 1,000."  Bob: And then you can follow it up by saying – and I was thinking maybe we ought to go this fall to one of those FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences. Dennis: That's a great idea, Bob. Bob: Get a weekend away together, just the two of us and focus on our marriage and on each other.  We are hosting these conferences in cities all across the country this fall.  I'm going to be speaking at one of the conferences in Philadelphia coming up in November, but I was just looking recently, we're going to be in Monterey, California, we're going to be in San Antonio, Texas, with the conference.  We're going to have conferences in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, and Chattanooga, Tennessee.  In fact, there's probably a conference in driving distance for most of our listeners. You can find out all the information on the website, FamilyLife.com, find when the conference is coming to a city near where you live, mark that date out on your calendar, and go ahead and get registered now.  Some of these conferences fill up, and sell out in advance.  So make your reservations, make your plans, you can register online, or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY.  We'll answer any questions you have, and we can get you registered right over the phone.  1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, that's the phone number, or go online at FamilyLife.com, and if you are interested in getting a copy of the book Dr. McQuilkin wrote called "A Promise Kept," you can order that from our website as well, or you can order it when you call 1-800-FLTODAY. Then, again, I want to encourage you to take time in your marriage each day to spend time with one another, praying, looking at the Scriptures together, and if you need a tool to help make that happen, the book that Dennis Rainey and his wife, Barbara, have written called "Moments With You," is a wonderful daily devotional that we'd like to send you this month as a way of saying thank you for your financial support of the ministry of FamilyLife Today.   Because we are listener-supported, we depend on folks like you to make a donation from time to time to help support the work of this ministry, and if you make that donation this month, feel free to request a copy of "Moments With You."  If you are donating online, when you come to the keycode box on the donation form, type in the word "You," y-o-u, so we'll know to send you a copy of the devotional guide.  And if you are calling 1-800-FLTODAY to make your donation, just request Dennis and Barbara's devotional or the book, "Moments With You."  Again, we're thrilled to send it to you.  We trust it will help you strengthen your marriage, and we appreciate your partnership with us and your support of FamilyLife Today. Now, tomorrow we want to invite you back as we begin a conversation on youth ministry with the director of student ministries from a church in North Carolina.  Steve Wright is making changes in how he does youth ministry, and he thinks changes need to be made.  We'll talk about that tomorrow.  I hope you can be with us.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.   FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow.    _______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com          

Storm Stories: Charlie's Victory (Part 1) - Charlie & Lucy WedemeyerStorm Stories: Charlie's Victory (Part 2) - Charlie & Lucy WedemeyerFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Storm Stories:  Charlie's VictoryDay 1 of 2 Guest:                        Lucy and Charlie Wedemeyer From the series:       Storm Stories:  Charlie's Victory Part 1        Bob: Lucy Wedemeyer was a young wife, a young mom with two small children.  She had married her high school sweetheart, the star of the football team.  Things were going perfect for Lucy until one day her husband came home from the doctor. Lucy: I mean, it was very obvious to me something was really wrong, and when he said that the doctor told him he had this terminal disease, I couldn't say anything.  I couldn't even respond.  We just stood there kind of clinging to each other. [musical transition]  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, August 7th.   Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  How does a marriage survive and stand strong in the midst of storms?  Stay tuned. [musical transition]  And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Thursday edition.  When we began this week, when you told our listeners that the story they were going to hear was one of the top five all-time FamilyLife Today stories, and I think you're right.  I think what we've heard already this week has been powerful and profound.  But we thought we ought to revisit another one of those top-five moments before the week is over.  And so our listeners are going to get to hear another remarkable couple on today's program. Dennis: A great story of unsurpassing love between a football star and his adoring wife, Charlie and Lucy Wedemeyer tell a story that I think our listeners will never forget.  Charlie was a standout high school football star in Hawaii.  He ended up getting a scholarship to Michigan State University, where he had never seen a snowflake before being from Hawaii, and there he met Lucy.  They were married and not long after that he had become head coach of Los Gatos High School in Northern California in the Bay Area, and it was during that time he was diagnosed with a terminal illness, at least he was told by his doctor that he had months to live. Bob: And when we sat down and talked to them, it had been years since he had received that diagnosis, and Charlie was in a wheelchair, the only parts of his body that he could move were his lips and his eyes, and that's how he communicated with his wife, Lucy.  In fact, our listeners may be able to hear the ventilator that he's on.  They won't hear Charlie's voice, but Lucy will be able to share some of his thoughts and some of his words as she reads his lips and as she walks us through this incredible story. Lucy: Charlie was diagnosed with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, which is commonly known as Lou Gehrig's disease.  The doctors told him at the time of the diagnosis he had maybe a year to live, and Charlie's adding here, "The doctors didn't realize that Dr. Jesus had other plans for me." Dennis: Well, I want to take you all back to how you met because you met in Hawaii, isn't that correct, where you grew up? Lucy: Charlie and I met in high school at Punahau Academy on the beautiful island of Oahu under just a gorgeous blue sky and waving palm trees.  I mean, just the most romantic place.  He had just finished football practice, and I was standing in line at the bookstore – uh-oh, "No, no, no.  I was standing in line when I saw this gorgeous blond" – oh I like this – "walking up the steps, and I immediately fell in love."  Is that why you ran over to get in line?  I see. [laughter]  Dennis: Well, you, at that time, were a cheerleader, and he was a star football player – the player of the decade in high school? Lucy: Yes, he was, he was, in the '60s, yes, yes. Dennis: Well, it was in 1977, after you had been married for 11 years.  You'd had a daughter and a son that you were at the chalkboard, and you were having difficulty holding onto a piece of chalk, and at first it didn't seem that it was out of the ordinary that you were having to squeeze the chalk extra hard, but in the weeks that followed instead of two or three fingers you found yourselves really gripping the chalk, and some bad news came your way.  Lucy, can you bring us into those first conversations around that? Lucy: Charlie is saying, "At first I thought it was old football injuries, since I'd had so many."  He played not only high school and college but semi-pro there with the Lansing All-Stars for several years.  So it wasn't uncommon to think that maybe it was arthritis setting in or – he'd had a multitude of injuries all his career, and it was disconcerting, but Charlie just kind of said, "Oh, well, it's probably, you know, just those old injuries," and we really didn't concern ourselves with it that much at that point in time.  And Charlie's saying, "Until it became more difficult for me to button my shirts, to shave, and tie my shoes."  And, actually, what happened was the team doctor noticed some problems and started to ask Charlie and said, "Why don't we go up and have some tests done," and he took us up to Stanford University and ran us through some tests.  He said they were basically inconclusive, and we really didn't think a lot about it.  It's kind of funny, we, I think, preferred to bury our head in the sand at the time and just assume that it was part of his – part of the old injuries. Bob: Charlie, did you bring Lucy in?  Did you let her know you were having trouble with the chalk and buttoning your shirt? Lucy: "Oh, yes, in fact, she always had to correct all his math papers for his math students" and do all those things – the fine dexterity things.  But, again, we weren't – I don't think we were extremely alarmed, and our family has always been very close.  Any of Charlie's football games or basketball games when he was coaching basketball or playing softball.  We'd all be together.  The children were always there, a part of the scene. Dennis: Well, that Christmas season, the team doctor, who was a good friend of yours, paid your way back to the islands for all four of you to go back and see your family.  You were suspicious that he knew something that he wasn't sharing with you. Lucy: "Oh, yes," Charlie is saying.  "In fact, you are absolutely right about that.  When he made that generous offer, I thought something was distinctly wrong with me, and after watching that movie on Lou Gehrig's disease, I was convinced that that was what it was." Dennis: Did you ever ask the doctor why he didn't tell you earlier? Lucy: Yes, we did, Charlie did ask him, and really it came down to he didn't know how.  He did not know how to tell Charlie he was going to die, and it was very, very hard for him.  In fact, I was mad at him for a while because I had told him that when he did come upon a diagnosis, that I wanted to be there, that we wanted to be there together.  And the day that I called him about – or he happened to call us, and I mentioned about seeing that movie, and a lot of similarities, he said, "Oh, well, have Charlie stop by," and he'd talk to him. Dennis: Wasn't this February? Lucy: Yes. Dennis: So he'd kept it a secret … Lucy: Yes, for many months, many months. Dennis: What did Charlie do then? Lucy: Well, he stopped by the doctor's office, and I had told the doctor, I said, "Please, I want to be there."  And Charlie's saying, "Actually, one day when I was planning to go to the coaching clinic, I walked out of the gym, and he happened to be there and he told me that he wanted to see me in his office, and at that point I knew that something was wrong.  But when he told me what it was I really didn't believe him because I felt fine, and I looked fine.  And I didn't see how he could possibly be telling me this." Bob: Lucy, when a doctor comes to you and says, "Your husband's got a year to live."  I'm sure there's a numbness, there's a sense of denial.  It's hard – you go through a process of thinking, "This can't be true.  I'm going to wake up, it will be all over," but at some point the reality of that diagnosis sets in, and you begin to think, "What do we do?"  Tell us what you guys talked about at that point. Lucy:  Charlie's saying – oh, Charlie wanted to say that when he left the doctor's office that day, "I was driving home, and the more I thought about it, the inevitable, I thought that someday I wouldn't be able to see my children grow up and not be with my wife and I started to cry and, in fact, I actually drove right through a red light, and I had to pull over, and I was overcome with emotion."  It's very hard to go back.  Charlie is saying that when he got home and came in the door, I mean, it was very obvious to me something was really wrong, and when he said that the doctor told him that he had this terminal disease, I couldn't say anything, I couldn't even respond.  We just stood there kind of clinging to each other in bewilderment and from that point I remember kind of being in a state of denial, definitely a state of uncertainty and then he went off to the football clinic. [laughter]  I was so mad!  But I realized if that helped him keep focused, that helped him so he didn't have to dwell on it, and I got to sit home and worry about it. Bob: Yeah, I'm thinking that left you at home alone, didn't it? Lucy: Yes, yes.  And I remember the next morning when I opened the draperies, and I looked outside, and it was a gorgeous day.  I wanted to know why – why were the birds singing, why were people smiling and happy?  It's, like, wait a minute, something is very wrong here.  How can life just go on when we've just been hit with a ton of bricks? Bob: In that timeframe of those first few months after the diagnosis, did you wonder where is God in all of this? Lucy: Actually, we remember talking about the fact that the coach of the rival high school was also going through some extreme physical problems with his back and not really being able to diagnosis his problem, and so we kind of – I remember sitting up one night, and we kind of laughed, and we said, "Well, God must need some coaches," you know, "this is obvious." You know, I don't think we ever sat there and said "God, why me?"  Mostly because even at that moment, Charlie still looked fine.  There was no discerning sign of disease or, you know, the word "terminal."  It just wasn't there, and I remember at that point saying, "Charlie, you know, this is not just your disease.  This is our disease, and we're going to fight it together."   The only sad thing is, although, I don't know, it worked out quite well, but a lot of people said to us, "Well, you're going to tell the children, right?  You're going to tell the children.  You have to tell the children."  And I said "Why?  Why?"  What do you do?  Sit down with your six-year-old and say, "Hey, guess what?  Dad's going to die in a year."  We couldn't do that because we honestly believed we could fight it, and what I had to do in my own mind was believe that we were going to fight it one day at a time.  I couldn't think about the fact that one day he'd not be able to use his arms at all, or he'd not be able to walk, or he'd be confined to a wheelchair, he couldn't go to the bathroom by himself.  I didn't want to dwell on that, and so I just kind of erased it, and I can see now how the Lord helped us deal in those early days, and it was a very slow, methodical process – when Charlie could no longer use his right hand, he'd use his left.  When he could no longer walk, we had the wheelchair.  It was tough, but he was never willing to give up, and I think that's what strengthened me and buoyed me in trying to keep Charlie going. I do remember wondering, though, "How do you encourage someone that's just been told they're going to die?  What do you say?"  And so we sort of began what we now call "handicap humor."  And we began to say – Charlie was very fastidious, and still is, about every hair on his head.  And I said, "Well, dear, you know, if you had cancer, hey, you'd be bald, and wouldn't that be horrifying?"   And so it lent some humor there, and we began to bring back the humor, because for a lot of times, a lot of days, they were pretty dark.  The uncertainty just can be a real killer.  And even today whenever Charlie hears the name Dr. Kevorkian, oh, he really would like to have a chat with him, because there were times when Charlie felt that it was so hard on him and the family, and we had to rely on so many people to help us that he would – Charlie is saying, "I will always remember when I saw the physical and emotional strain I was causing my wife and my children that I told you" Charlie said to me, "maybe it would be better if I just died." And I can remember sitting next to Charlie when he voiced those words in a voice that was barely even then – oh, and Charlie's saying, "I will never forget your response when you said" – well, I'm going to tell you before I responded to what Charlie said, I had to take a deep breath and I remember sitting there saying, "God, please tell me what to say.  Give me the words," and I told Charlie that we'd rather have him like this than not at all. Bob: Well, we have heard today part 1 of a conversation that took place now more than a decade ago with Charlie and Lucy Wedemeyer and, by the way, Charlie is still alive and the miracle continues. But, again, this is a profound real-life story, Dennis. Dennis: And, Bob, I remember, as we were talking to Charlie and Lucy that I turned to them and quoted 2 Corinthians, Chapter 4, verse 16, because it's a passage of Scripture that really brings perspective to circumstances like only Scripture can and like they were facing.  I just want to read this to our listeners because it's a great reminder.  "Therefore, we do not lose heart but though the outer man is decaying, yet the inner man is being renewed day-by-day.  For a momentary light affliction" – boy – "for a momentary light affliction is producing for us an eternal way to glory far beyond all comparison. While we look not at all the things, which are seen but at the things which are not seen, for the things that are seen are temporal, but the things that are not seen are eternal.   And if – I just remember looking at them and thinking about the love story that we had heard that they've given us a great gift.  It was a gift of a reminder of what is eternal and of real value, and that's character.  That's our choice in the midst of circumstances when they're standing against us in the most fierce storm we've ever faced, and even though Charlie slowly lost his speech, his muscles weakened, and his outer man was helpless, yet because of his trust in God and Lucy's tenacious love, his inner man, her inner man, gained strength, and they found a source of strength in God and in the person of Jesus Christ.  And you know what?  That's the message for you, as a listener today.  Whatever you're facing, whatever you're up against, will you place your faith, your trust, your hope, in Jesus Christ?  I don't know where else you're going to turn.  I think the Wedemeyers have demonstrated there really is hope in no one else. Bob: Yeah, I think a lot of couples come to a point where they ask themselves, "Would our marriage stand up against something like this?  Is the commitment strong?  Is it bedrock to who we are?"  And I think they provide a personal example of what real love looks like in a marriage relationship – commitment, self-sacrifice, genuine caring about another person.  I know their story has been told in a book called "Charlie's Victory," and we have a limited supply of those books in our FamilyLife Resource Center.  If our listeners are interested, they may want to contact us to see how they can secure a copy of that book. But I also want to encourage our listeners to attend one of our upcoming Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences this fall so that you can strengthen and pour into your marriage relationship because you don't know what the path ahead may bring for you, and it's building today that helps your marriage stand strong against whatever comes. You can find out more about the FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conference on our website at FamilyLife.com.  When you go to the website, on the right side of the home page, you'll see a box that says "Today's Broadcast."  Click where it says "Learn More."  That will take you to an area of the site where you can review a transcript of today's program, you can stream the audio online, if you'd like.  You can find out more about the FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conference and about other books and resources we have available to help couples pour this kind of a biblical foundation in their marriage.  Again, our website is FamilyLife.com, or you can contact us by phone at 1-800-FLTODAY.  We've got folks who can answer any questions you have about upcoming conferences or resources available, and they can make arrangements to get you registered or to send the resources you need to you.  Again, our toll-free number, 1-800-358-6329, that's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.  We have said many times here that one of the ways you continue to build a strong marriage relationship is by spending time together each day with God – spending time praying together, spending time looking at His Word, talking about what's going on in your marriage, in your family, and about God's priorities in those important arenas. And one way that couples can continue to grow closer to one another and grow in their relationship with God is by spending time in the daily devotional book that Dennis and Barbara Rainey have written called "Moments With You."  This month we are making copies of this book available for listeners when you make a donation of any amount to the ministry of FamilyLife Today.  We want you to feel free to request a copy of this book.  We're a listener-supported program so we depend on your financial support to be able to continue the ministry of FamilyLife Today on this station and on other stations all around the country. If you are making a donation online at FamilyLife.com, and you'd like to receive the book, "Moments With You," just type the word "You," y-o-u, into the keycode box that you find on the donation form or call 1-800-FLTODAY.  You can make a donation over the phone and mention that you'd like the devotional guide, "Moments With You," and, again, we're happy to send it to you as our way of saying thank you for your financial support of this ministry, and we appreciate your partnership with us. Now, tomorrow we'll hear more from Charlie and Lucy Wedemeyer about how a couple perseveres in the midst of incredible circumstances.  I hope you can be with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow.  ________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. 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Storm Stories: Charlie's Victory (Part 1) - Charlie & Lucy WedemeyerStorm Stories: Charlie's Victory (Part 2) - Charlie & Lucy WedemeyerFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Storm Stories:  Charlie's VictoryDay 2 of 2 Guest:                        Lucy and Charlie Wedemeyer From the series:       Storm Stories:  Charlie's Victory Part 2        Bob: What causes someone to persevere in a marriage relationship in spite of incredible hardship?  Here is Lucy Wedemeyer. Lucy: I think it goes back to the marriage vows, "for better, for worse."  I don't think anyone ever dreams that the "for worse" part will ever be a part of your life.  As he began to deteriorate and was struggling with just staying alive, how can you abandon someone when you made that commitment?   Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, August 8th.   Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  We will get a close-up look today at what genuine love, commitment, and self-sacrifice really look like in a marriage.  Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Friday edition.  I'm not sure exactly how to describe this week.  It's kind of like true heroes week, you know, great love stories week.  We started off hearing about John and Donna Bishop and the remarkable story of how their marriage has gone through the incredible trial of him having lost his memory completely, and they had to start their marriage and their family over again from scratch. Dennis: Yes, and Donna was really the key to that because she loved him in the midst of his illness, and the story we're going to hear on today's broadcast is a continuation of another love story, Charlie and Lucy Wedemeyer, where she also loved and is still loving her man in the midst of great suffering and great trial. Bob: Yes, Charlie and Lucy were married in 1966, and 11 years later, Charlie was working as a football coach in Los Gatos, California.  They had two children and, all of a sudden, Charlie noticed that there were things he used to be able to do that he couldn't do any longer – things like buttoning his buttons.  And so they went to the doctor, and the doctor said, "You may have a year to live, maybe a year and a half," and as it turns out, Charlie has beaten those odds. Dennis: Slightly – 31 years he's been alive. Bob: Yes.  When we interviewed him, this was more than a decade ago, he had already survived for a decade and half.  He is in a wheelchair, he's on a respirator full time, and all he is able to move are his lips and his eyes, and that's how he and Lucy communicate.  She reads his lips and, as our listeners will hear, she interprets what he is saying.  And as we've already said this week, this goes down as one of the top stories we've heard on FamilyLife Today in the years that we've been doing this program.  And here is part 2 of our conversation with Charlie and Lucy Wedemeyer. Dennis: Bob, when Charlie and Lucy speak to audiences, they warn them.  In fact, in their book, "Charlie's Victory," they wrote down the warning they give people when they speak to them in large audiences.  They say "Sometimes in our lives, we'll all be faced with some circumstance that will seem too difficult to cope with.  When that time comes, we have to make the choice, because God gives each one of us the power of choice.  We can choose to be miserable, feel sorry for ourselves, throw our own private pity party and cause everyone around us to be miserable, too.  Or we can choose to face our trials with God's help knowing that we'll come out on the other side as stronger people for the experience.  We all have that choice." And, you know, you all have really come out on that other side, although, Lucy, as I think back to the struggle that you've been through in facing Charlie's illness and caring for him – in fact, the nine years that you picked him up out of bed and without nursing help for all those years, Lucy, there had to be days when your strength, physical strength waned, and your emotional strength ebbed.  It had to seem like it was unbearable. Lucy:  Well, it was, and I sort of made a pact with myself that I wouldn't cry in front of Charlie.  I didn't want to let down, you know, I always wanted to be up.  I'm always kind of an up person, and one particular afternoon, Cully (ph) had helped me get Charlie in a borrowed van to go to the doctor.  It was the first time we were putting Charlie in the wheelchair and trying to transfer him.  And as we got to the place, and we were attempting to put him into the wheelchair, we couldn't.  It was a struggle.  It was so difficult that I began to have this lump welling up in my throat, and I thought, "No, no, I am not going to cry."  And so I said to him and to Cully, "Excuse me, I'll be right back," and they kind of looked at me with these faces like "Where are you going?  We have an appointment."   And I jumped out of the van, and it was a busy parking lot, and I went to the back of the van, and I sort of knelt down behind it, and I cried out to God, I said, "I cannot do this anymore.  I cannot."  It was really miraculous because right then and there, without truly understanding what it was to have a personal relationship with Jesus, the Lord absolutely enveloped me with this wonderful blanket of warmth, of comfort, of this peace that it was going to be okay.  It was like this little void in me, in the center of me, was filled.  And I got up, wiped my eyes and marched back to the van and opened the door, and Cully looked at me, he says, "Mom, are you okay?"  And I said, "Yes, I am fine." And really from that day forward the Lord gave me a new resolve that allowed me to go through everything and be calm.  It was as if God had said, "This is your mission," you know, "to help Charlie, to keep him going, and I have bigger plans."  Little did we know.  And Charlie's saying, "I thank God every day for Lucy because He, God knew beforehand, that Lucy would be the one that would stand by my side throughout our difficult circumstances, and I must say that whenever someone is diagnosed with a terminal disease, 72 percent of their marriages fall apart." Dennis: You know, Bob, as I prepared for the interview, I watched a PBS special about this couple and this, of course, was something that was created back in the mid-1980s, and I sat there with my three daughters and wife and watched Lucy's commitment to Charlie, and Charlie's commitment to his family and to life, I just sat there with emotion welling up in me at the enormous commitment that was before me. In an era, in an age, when commitment is so cheap, and I've been looking forward to asking both of you this question, and I want you to address it as honestly as you can, because we have a lot of listeners at forks in the road over all kinds of issues in their lives, and it is not this often that they run into someone who has the stuff of commitment that you have.  Speak to that person facing that issue. Lucy: I think it goes back to the marriage vows, "for better, for worse."  I don't think anyone ever dreams that the "for worse" part will ever be a part of your life.  I think, for Charlie and I, we were so blessed so early in our lives, I will never forget all those years being able to watch him as an athlete tear up the football field, basketball, and baseball, and be a part of his life when he was so active.  As he began to deteriorate and was struggling with just staying alive, how can you abandon someone when you made that commitment?  I think I was the most impressed, though, with the fact that Charlie was committed to continue at any cost.  In a marriage, communication is the maker or breaker of so many lives, and with Charlie, he was losing that ability.  He was struggling to not only live and breathe, but he was not able to speak very well.  His sound was becoming less audible every day, and yet I know in the early years, I felt if I could just love Charlie enough that it was okay.  But as I struggled physically with caring for Charlie, it just went back to that commitment of for better or for worse, and when finally a nurse expressed to us the difference that Jesus could make in our lives, finally, I had that super strength that really was there waiting for me all along, and that enabled me to know that it's God's love for us.  His unconditional love for us that is reflected then in our marriage, in our relationship with our children, and with our families.   And He has given us more joy today than I know we could have had with Charlie being healthy, because we wouldn't have recognized it.  It's amazing what it takes the Lord to get your attention, and, boy, he had to whack us on the side of the head.  And Charlie is saying, "In fact, I must say that our marriage is a reflection of our relationship with God, and to think of what He was willing to sacrifice for us, we should be at least willing to sacrifice for our spouses and our families." Well, our time here is short, so short, and what we have realized now is that actually Charlie's ALS is a blessing, because he's allowed – I mean God has allowed him to be a voice to share his message of hope and encouragement whereas if he'd been a healthy person, he wouldn't have the impact.  And so we go out now sharing that message, and it is exciting to see, because the Lord is not only blessing us with opportunities. but we receive cards and letters, we receive calls from people who are going through the most difficult, hurtful times, not necessarily just an illness, not necessarily a marriage situation but they can see a light at the end of the tunnel knowing that we can get through our "tragedy," what most people would consider a tragedy, that we're triumphing through it; that you can do it; that there is hope, and that's through the Lord. Dennis: Where is the disease now, Charlie?  How has it progressed now? Lucy: Well, the doctors have literally thrown up their hands, but Charlie is saying, "I am very fortunate because my disease has stabilized, and it is only by the grace of God that I am able to move my facial muscles even though I can't breathe or speak, because most ALS patients lose the ability, after a few years, to move their lips, their eyes, and I know that God has given me that gift to do His work." Dennis: Well, your face is very much alive, and there is a countenance there that I wish, Bob, all of our listeners could see.  And I want to turn to his kids, who happen to be in the studio with us – Carrie and Cully – and one of the things we have done from time to time is we have turned to sons or daughters and asked them to give a verbal tribute to their father and mother, and that's what I'm going to ask you two to do right now – make a statement of your appreciation, affirmation, and love and as you do it, don't just generalize it.  Say some specific things about what this couple right here across the table mean to you two. Cully:  Well, Mom and Dad, both of you have displayed so much love not only for each other and for Carrie and I, but also to so many different people.  You've been willing to share your story with everyone openly, freely, and honestly about the pain and the struggles and the things that you've gone through but, more importantly, about what Christ has done in your life and how, without Him, both of you wouldn't be here, Carrie and I wouldn't be here.  He saved us all, and He's brought us together as a family.  ALS tried to destroy first you, Dad, and then our family, but God saved us, and through Christ we are a family.  And that's the most important unit, that's the most important body that the Lord has put together, and I just thank you both for being stewards of His Word and being His humble servants and expressing His love through your lives. Dennis: Okay, Carrie? Carrie:  Out of our family of four, I was the last to come to know Jesus Christ as Lord, and a lot of parents ask me how my parents conveyed Christianity to me; that, you know, "How did they get you in?  How did they get you in the Kingdom?  What did they do?"  And one thing that I like to share is that my parents never hit me over the head with the Bible, they never forced me to do anything.  What they showed to me was Jesus in their lives. Mom and Dad, I would like to thank you for being an example of what unconditional love is, for showing me the love of Jesus through your lives and through your love for me; for your endless prayers and support before I became a Christian; for your patience with me; and for laying a foundation in my life of commitment and of compassion and of giving of myself. Dennis: You know, there are a lot of tears right now in the studio, and I think there are tears from a pair of children who are honoring their mom and dad, and there is a mom and dad crying tears of honor having just experienced that. I just had the feeling, Bob, as both of these for sharing about their parents of just the holiness of a moment, of a couple who have been courageous beyond description.  A lot of people have limitations in their lives but have never been challenged like this couple.  But to have kids who have watched them live it, who have been up close, and who have seen the authenticity even makes their words even all that much more powerful and the honor that has been given to Charlie and Lucy all that more meaningful. I want to say thanks to you two for not quitting and for not giving up.  You really are a model of commitment, and our country desperately needs couples like you, and I pray 17 years from today you come back. Bob: Well, again, today we've been listening to part 2 of a conversation recorded now more than a decade ago with Charlie and Lucy Wedemeyer.  So we're getting close to that 17-year mark. Dennis: You know, I'm looking at it, Bob, and I think we need to have them back before then, I really do.  I think we need to invite them back, and let's hear the rest of the love story because, Bob, we're all in need of hearing the real deal.  I think authenticity today – well, I think people are hungering and thirsting to hear people who are no baloney, just tell it to me as it is, even in its raw, unvarnished form where life is gritty and tough and you know what?  It doesn't turn out perfect like we wish it would.  And that's what I really like about Charlie and Lucy.  This is a tough story.  It is a love story, but it's continuing today, and I know the sacrifices and price that has been paid probably go beyond our imagination. But I just want to turn to the listener and say to you, I don't know what you're facing in your marriage with your children, with life, but God is there.  He'll be there in the midst of that just like He was for Charlie and Lucy and has guided them all these years, and He calls us to faith.   The other morning, I woke up, and I don't know what caused me to do this with Barbara, but I – we were kind of conversing as we were waking up in bed, and I just quoted one of Dr. Bill Bright's favorite verses.  Dr. Bright was the president and founder of Campus Crusade for Christ, and he loved Galatians, chapter 2, verse 20 – "I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me."  Now listen the last part of this verse – "And the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and delivered Himself up for me." Did you catch that?  How does Lucy Wedemeyer do it?  How does Charlie do it?  They live their lives by faith in the Son of God who demonstrated His love for them and gave them a love for one another that has endured enormous suffering, and that same love can be yours in the circumstances that you're facing if you'll place your faith in the Son of God. Bob: Yes, I think of the verse that Mary Ann and I put on our wedding invitations from 1 John, chapter 4, verse 19.  It says, "We love because He first loved us."  And, really, the source of love for one another begins when we understand what real love is by experiencing God's love for us, and we experience God's love for us when we recognize that Jesus died to forgive our sins, to renovate and revolutionize our lives and to give us a hope. We'd like to invite out listeners – if you would like to know what it means to have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ and to experience the kind of love that Charlie and Lucy understand firsthand, we want you to invite you to contact us by calling 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329. When someone answers just say, "I want to know how to become a Christian," and there is a book we'd love to send you called "Pursuing God."  It explains what it means for a person to have a right relationship with God through Jesus Christ and to experience God's love. Again, call 1-800-358-6329, that's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, and tell whoever answers that you'd like to become a Christian, and we're happy to send you a copy of the book, "Pursuing God."  Let me also encourage you to visit our website, FamilyLife.com.  When you get to the home page, if you click the box on the right side that says, "Today's Broadcast," that will take you to an area of the site where you can get more information about resources that are available through FamilyLife Today.  We have a limited number of copies of a book called "Charlie's Victory" that tells Charlie and Lucy's story, and you can get more information about that book on our website at FamilyLife.com, or you can order a copy of it from us online. There are also additional resources designed to help you strengthen your marriage relationship.  Dr. Gary Chapman has written a wonderful book called "Covenant Marriage," and it's in our FamilyLife Resource Center as well.  Again, all the information about these resources can be found on our website, FamilyLife.com, or if you need additional help, call 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329, and someone on our team will answer any questions you have or make arrangements to have the resources you need sent to you. And when you do get in touch with us, will you keep in mind that FamilyLife Today is a listener-supported ministry, which means that folks like you are the ones who help make sure that FamilyLife Today can continue to be heard on this station and on other stations all across the country, and you do that by making a donation from time to time to help support this ministry.  This month, when you make a donation of any amount, we would be honored to send you a copy of a 365-day devotional guide that Dennis and Barbara Rainey have written for husbands and wives called "Moments With You."  This daily devotional brings you together as a couple around a verse from the Scripture.  It helps you apply that verse in your marriage and gives you an opportunity to pray together each day.   If you would like to receive a copy of the book, simply request it when you make a donation of any amount either on our website at FamilyLife.com, and if you're donating there, when you get to the keycode box on the donation form, type in the word "You," y-o-u, so that we know to send you a copy of the book, or you can make a donation over the phone.  Call 1-800-FLTODAY and simply mention that you'd like a copy of the daily devotional, "Moments With You," by Dennis and Barbara Rainey.  We're happy to send it to you as our way of saying thanks for your partnership with us, your financial support of this ministry.  It means a lot to us, and we appreciate hearing from you. Well, we hope you have a great weekend.  I hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend, and I hope you can be back with us on Monday when we're going to feature one of our favorite interviews of all time.  We will hear from Dr. Robertson McQuilkin on Monday, and hear how he continued to love his life well following her diagnosis with Alzheimer's disease.  I hope you can join us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  Have a great weekend, we'll see you Monday for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow.  _______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com        

You and Me Forever (Part 1) - Francis and Lisa ChanYou and Me Forever (Part 2) - Francis and Lisa ChanYou and Me Forever (Part 3) - Francis and Lisa ChanFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Marriage in Light of Eternity Guests:                      Francis and Lisa Chan        From the series:       You and Me Forever (Day 1 of 3)  Bob: You've heard the statistic that the divorce rate in the church is no different than the divorce rate outside of the church? Francis Chan says he's not buying it.  Francis: Yes; I mean, I really believe there has never been a divorce between two Spirit-filled believers. They are using stats of everyone who goes to church / calls themselves a Christian, which—and, that's what the Bible / that's what Jesus says all the time: “I know you say that you are a believer. You call Me, ‘Lord,' but why do you call Me, ‘Lord,' when you don't do what I say? [emphasis added]”  You know, the whole book of 1 John is—it doesn't matter that you say you know Him—because you don't obey His commands, you are a liar.  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, January 22nd. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine. To make a marriage work, Francis and Lisa Chan say it takes more than two—more than you and me. We'll talk with them about that today. Stay with us.  1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. Let me just start off today, if I can, Dennis, by reminding our listeners about the special offer we're making this week on our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways. If our listeners would like to join us at one of the fifty-plus upcoming getaways that we've got going on in cities all across the country this spring, sign up this week and save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. The offer expires this week. So take advantage of it by going to FamilyLifeToday.com; or call if you have any questions or if you'd like to register by phone. The number is 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the Weekend to Remember is a great getaway for husbands and wives—a great opportunity for you to get some uninterrupted time, where you're focusing on one another, focusing on your marriage, and having some fun in the process. Again, you can find out more at FamilyLifeToday.com; but make sure you register this week in order to take advantage of the special 50 percent offer we're making.  2:00 The website is FamilyLifeToday.com; or call if you have any questions: 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life,” and then the word, “TODAY.” Now, I've got to be honest with you, Dennis. I have always wanted to meet one of our guests today, because I've always wanted to meet the woman who could be married to Francis Chan; you know?  [Laughter]   Dennis: Yes; I've wondered that as well! So, Lisa, welcome to the broadcast. [Laughter] Lisa: Thank you very much.  Dennis: You've kind of wondered that, too, by now; haven't you?   Lisa: Yes; what did I get myself into?—no. [Laughter]   Dennis: Well, he's a good man, Francis. Lisa: Yes; he is!   Dennis: Welcome back.  Francis: Thank you.  Dennis: We've had you on the broadcast, and we have battled— Francis: Yes.  Dennis: —the soapbox in the middle of the table and the microphones as we talked about the Holy Spirit a number of years ago.  Francis: That's right.  Dennis: But you guys have written a fresh book called You and Me Forever.  3:00 It's subtitled, Marriage in Light of Eternity. Now, you may not know this, but our Weekend to Remember marriage getaway begins talking about the glory of God / the transcendent purpose of marriage as God intended it. Couples are learning that marriage is about more than just “you and me.”   Bob: And most people think it's about them; don't they? Francis: Yes; marriage is such a small part of this bigger picture in Scripture.  Bob: But be honest; you didn't have the bigger picture when you went to Lisa and proposed; did you?   Francis: No, no, no; not at all.  Dennis: You thought it was about you two; didn't you?   Francis: Oh, yes! Absolutely.  Bob: Tell us how you guys met and tell us how he popped the question, Lisa.  Lisa: Well, I knew the worship pastor at the church that Francis was working at, at the time. He and I had kind of grown up at the same church—the worship pastor. So, he had me come over and sing. He, actually, is the one who started feeding both of us these lines of—for me, it was: “You've got to stop dating anyone else. Francis is the one for you.”  4:00 He was so confident! Dan, we thank you still. [Laughter] So, I came over—started going to the church a lot to play lead in their Christmas musical. Francis kind of found a way to ask me out.  Francis: Yes; I asked if I could be a stage manager. I told—I was honest with the worship pastor—I go: “I don't really care about your play. I want to meet this girl.” [Laughter]   Dennis: So, you paid off the guy, Dan, and told him to arrange the marriage? Francis: Oh, yes. He just gave me a little headset and said: “Hey, go. Meet her.”—you know? [Laughter] I seriously had no responsibilities except to ask her out. [Laughter] Bob: So, how did you—how long, after you asked her out, before you proposed?   Dennis: No, no. I want to find out about the first date. Lisa? Lisa: Oh, the first date was great, because he planned it where it was Studio City. It was a far drive; there was a little traffic. It was during Christmas time, so we were listening to Amy Grant on the radio—[Laughter]—her Christmas tape or whatever—  5:00 —and just talking and talking. We went to dinner and just walked around these cute little shops. It was awesome! Bob: So, how long from Studio City and Amy Grant until you were standing at the altar together? [Laughter] Francis: Almost exactly a year; yes, from the first date to the time we got married. We met in December / got married the following January. Dennis: Did you know right away? Francis: Yes; pretty much—yes; after a few weeks, I was pretty convinced. Bob: And how long before you proposed? Francis: Well, we had to wait like five or six months, because it took a while to convince her parents that I was okay. [Laughter] That was the—   Lisa: I was the youngest of five, so there was a little bit of having a hard time letting go.  Francis: Yes; so they said, “No,” a couple of times to me.  Dennis: Really?!   Francis: Oh, yes.  Dennis: So, you went to the dad— Francis: Oh, yes—asked for the blessing.  Dennis: —and he said? Francis: “Nope.” [Laughter] I think my life—my mindset of just doing anything for the Lord / going anywhere—can be a little scary to parents.  6:00 Bob: And do you think your mom and dad were just a little worried about what this man might lead you into?   Lisa: Yes; I think they were a little bit scared. You know, they didn't know him at all. So, it took a while: “Let's make sure we really know who he is; because maybe he's crazy for God, or maybe he's just crazy!”  [Laughter] Dennis: So, how did you pop the question?—take us to the experience. Knowing Francis Chan, this can't be average.  Francis: No; we were going to go waterskiing—back then, people still waterskied—[Laughter] with a bunch of friends. I had set up on this little island, in the middle of the lake—you know, nice little flowers and music. So she kind of knew, as we were walking up there; and it was playing our song, you know. I popped the question there.  Bob: So, I want to go back to the first year of the Chan marriage. I want to go all the way back to the starting point, because you both loved God / you both were sold out to Him.  7:00 But you realized that marriage looks different from one side of the altar than it looks from the other side of the altar; right? Francis: Yes; you really do! But I will say, we were warned about so many things like: “Be careful of this. First year is going to be tough. This is going to be crazy.”  I seriously felt little to none of that—it was like a dream come true—it really was—like: “Wow! I can't believe I get to be with my best friend. We never have to say goodbye.” It was a dream.  Dennis: You clicked.  Francis: Oh, yes.  Dennis: You clicked together.  Francis: Immediately. Dennis: What about you, Lisa?   Lisa: Yes; I would totally agree. Although, I am having a flashback of the time he made me so mad that I threw my shoe at the closet just to get a real loud bang out of it. There were moments of just total pride, and selfishness, and silliness that first year; but we kept waiting for the shoe to drop: “When is this going to feel so awful and terrible?”   Bob: And the shoe didn't drop, but it did get thrown. [Laughter]   8:00 Lisa: It did get thrown! [Laughter]  Dennis: Did you throw it at him?   Lisa: It was not at him. It was specifically to make a very loud noise.  Bob: And what prompted the shoe throwing; do you remember?   Lisa: That's what's so funny. My daughter was asking me that the other day—I said: “Honey, I can't even tell you. I cannot remember, even slightly, what it was about.”   Francis: It was probably something I said. I was very sarcastic back then. [Laughter]   Bob: You know, as I'm listening to you guys describe your first year, Mary Ann and I would be very similar. Our first year, we didn't hit the hiccups. We kind of enjoyed being with one another, just like you described.  But I think it was probably—I don't know—maybe ten years into our marriage, when I was getting ready to prepare for a small group meeting that was going to happen at our house. Couples were coming over, and we were going to start a new study about marriage. I was doing some prep work that afternoon. I was reading through these passages and reading some of the stuff. It dawned on me that: “Oh! Marriage is supposed to be about God.”  9:00  We had said, as couple: “We want God to be at the center of our marriage. We want…” but there is a difference between having God at the center of your marriage and having marriage be about Him. Do you know what I'm saying?   Francis: Yes; yes. Well, I mean, even in our marriage, we've, maybe, fought a dozen times?—then, it's only for a couple of hours, if that. Part of what prompted us to write this book was: “How come we don't fight?!” We realized, you know, it's because we haven't been focused on each other—I mean, from Day One.  We were three weeks into the marriage when I felt like the Lord asked me to start a church—this is nothing we'd ever talked about—and to look at my new wife and say: “I feel like God wants me to do this. I know we never talked about it.” So, we did what we were told not to do which is: “Hey, don't get right into the ministry.” Well, we're three weeks in, going, “God wants me to start a church.” For Lisa to go: “You know what? I believe God called me to just support you in whatever way you are going to lead our family. So, if that is what you think God wants us to do, let's go.”  10:00 So, ever since the beginning, we've been thinking about others and: “How do we minister to people? How do we reach our neighborhood? How do we reach our city?”  Because we've both been on this mission together, that's taken us all around the world now. It hasn't just been about, “Hey, you and me—you're not making me feel good,” / “I'm not making you feel good.” It's about, “Hey, we're here for a purpose.” As we've pursued that, it's caused us to be so in love with each other.  Dennis: Lisa, what did you think when he came up with this vision; and it wasn't just a vision for him? It was also a transformational moment for you, because he was going to need you to go do something you weren't necessarily planning on.  Lisa: Yes; I think—you know, it's so important for single women / young girls to watch and see that the man they are interested in or the man that they are dating is really walking with the Lord; because that gave me a lot of confidence to say: “You know what? I do trust God in you.  11:00 “I trust that He's showing you a plan / put something on your heart.”  That's my role, then—I'm going to jump in; I'm going to roll my sleeves up and “Let's get to work. We need Sunday school teachers. We need to do a mid-week kids' program.” I mean, we were doing so much stuff; but it was so fun in a way, even though it was tiring, it was also just: “We love these people. Let's serve them. Let's do what God put on your heart.”  I was so drawn to him, because he loved God in a way that was very different than a lot of the people I had been surrounded by in my own church setting. That is not to bad-mouth them, necessarily, but—wow!—it was like the way Francis would teach and preach, he had this fear of God and this reverence for the Word of God. In fact, before we got married, the best gift I have ever been given was this Bible that he gave to me a couple weeks before we got married. It had my married name inscribed on it; so it said “Lisa Chan” before I was Lisa Chan. And he wrote this whole letter inside of it to me:  12:00 “This is what we are going to commit our lives to. I want to see you wear this Bible out.”  You know? Wow! What a gift, to have a husband with that kind of mindset; you know?   Dennis: Francis, you believe that we have dumbed down marriage into this horizontal relationship of two people trying to make each other happy. What you and Lisa have written about, here, is that there is a transcendent purpose to marriage that is God-created / God-imbedded. If we miss this, we miss life.  Francis: Absolutely. You know, we tend to focus on certain passages in Scripture and not others. When you look at what the Bible says about marriage—yes, Paul wrote Ephesians 5—but even that was really about Christ and the church. But Paul, who wrote that, also wrote 1 Corinthians 7 [verses 29-31], which says: “This is what I mean, brothers, the appointed time has grown very short.  13:00 “From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning; those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing; those who buy as though they had no goods”—and he goes on—“for the present form of this world is passing away.” He's saying: “Those who have wives—just live like you do not, because there is something bigger here. There is this mission—we've got this brief time here on earth, and this is what we've got to be about.”  The Bible does talk about a marriage, but the emphasis is this marriage of the Lamb and this eternal marriage that we're going to be in. I mean, if we just sat and wrote down everything Jesus said—every time we wrote down, “husband” or “wife” or “family”—just wrote down all those verses, we'd be shocked! I mean, the way He speaks about family is: “I am so far beyond that. Yes; I created marriage. Yes; I created man and woman, and I want you to live this way. But the point of that is so that the world has a picture of this beautiful marriage that's going to happen one day and this picture of this beautiful Father that we have in heaven.”  14:00 We're just that shadow / we're just that glimpse; but too often, in the church, we make it all about us. It's killing our marriages.  Dennis: A marriage that's operating under the authority of Scripture and attempting to live obediently under the Lordship of Christ—living under His authority, even though they are doing it imperfectly—should show God off to a lost world.  Francis: Amen.  Dennis: And I think it's going to be one of our most powerful witnessing tools in the Christian community, going forward. In fact, I think in one of the chapters, Lisa, you wrote about: “What would happen if marriages got it together and divorce was rare?”   Lisa: Wouldn't that be so amazing to have the statistics be: “Wow! Those who belong to Christ / those who are following Christ—their divorce rate is next to nothing”? That is what would make sense, given what we know / what we believe—that we have the power of the Holy Spirit!  15:00 It's like, you know, you think of those times when the Apostles would say, “Brothers, this ought not to be!” That's what goes through our hearts: “People—believers out there—come on!  This ought not to be. We've got to rise above and recognize who we are. We are God's children, who have been given His Spirit. We can live out our lives in a very different way.”   Bob: Well, the interesting thing is—the statistics we've all heard—that marriage is the same in the church as it is outside the church—well, that's true if “in the church” means you ask a guy, “Are you a Christian?'”   Lisa: Yes; right. Francis: Amen.  Bob: But if you ask a guy: “Do you go to church every week? Do you read your Bible?  Do you pray together?” Now, all of a sudden, the marriage statistics are completely different because believers, who are walking with Christ, recognize, “It ought not be,” and they are living for something different.  Francis: Yes; I mean—I really believe there has never been a divorce between two Spirit-filled believers.  16:00 Never in history has there been two Spirit-filled people—people walking in the Spirit—who have gotten divorced. It's impossible! There's only one Spirit. So, one person has to be just not walking with Him in order to leave. I completely agree with you—they're using stats of everyone who goes to church— Bob: Right. Francis: —or calls themselves a Christian—which, that's what the Bible / that's what Jesus says all the time: “I know you say that you are a believer. You call Me, ‘Lord,' but why do you call Me, ‘Lord,' when you don't do what I say?” The whole book of 1 John is—it doesn't matter that you say you know Him; because you don't obey His commands, you are a liar.  Bob: Well, in fact, you say in the book that couples who say they have marriage problems need to recognize: “It's not a marriage problem. It's a God problem.”   Francis: Amen.  Bob: Unpack what you mean by that.  Francis: Bottom line—Lisa and I both have made a commitment, individually, to God. I mean, she knows I'm not going to leave her—I can't. I mean, before the Lord, we are going to work everything out. In the same way, she has that same mindset.  17:00 We have this understanding, before the Lord, where He fills my every need, like Psalm 23 says, “The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want.” I am not like desperately needing Lisa to fill all of these holes in my life, because I'm such a needy person. The Lord is wonderful! I know the Creator of the universe! I'm going to be with Him forever!  I've got everything in my possession. So, He's given me so much life—life to the full—that I just have life to give, and give, and give.  I don't wake up in the morning, going, “Gosh, I need so much from Lisa.” I'm filled in the Lord, and I have life to give to her. The same is true for her. When people understand that, then they are not sucking the life out of one another and needing so much from one another; but they are getting their water from this fountain of life, which is God Himself.  18:00 Lisa: Well, and that's why it's so important, too, for those who are in a marriage, where only one of them is spiritually-minded—and they do not have a believing husband or wife—to say: “You know what? It is still very possible for you to display the gospel alone.” There is some loneliness involved in that, and that's not something we make light of; but it is still very, very possible for you to receive what you need from Christ and to love this other person and to display—to the world, to your children, to the people around you—what it means to follow Christ and to display the gospel, even on your own.  Dennis: I've known a number of women and men, who have been in marriages like you are describing. I think they are among the most courageous in persevering.  Lisa: Yes.  Dennis: It is not easy—it is painful / it is lonely. They are not sharing the most important thing about their lives.  Lisa: Yes. Dennis: I want to go back to something you just said, Francis—that I just want to put a double underline under. There are two commitments that Barbara and I have made that completely altered our lives—certainly, our marriage covenant—where we decided, “We are not going to leave one another.”  19:00 But some months after we made our marriage covenant together publicly, and became married, we experienced our first Christmas together. We did something that Bill and Vonette Bright, who are the founders of Cru®, did when they started out their marriage. We signed a contract with God—a title deed. We signed over the rights and authority of our lives to Almighty God. It wasn't like it was a permanent contract, where we couldn't renege; because every day, you've got to get up and re-up on your contract and agree. But we signed formal papers—two handwritten pieces of paper—where we gave everything we had and hoped to have to God, afresh, as Master and Lord of our lives.  At that point, Francis, it's like—once you've settled the issue of ownership—  Francis: Yes.  Dennis: —“Who is going to be your master? Who's going to be your lord?” 20:00 Because if you are serving self—and you've got two people, in the most intimate relationship of all of human history / marriage—you've got two people, who are serving self, you know where that's headed. But if you've got two people, who are attempting to bow their necks / their wills before Almighty God and say: “God, would You show up? Would You do Your work in us and through us? Let us minister to each other, but also”—as you've said—“to the world.” That's when a couple, I think, experiences the pleasure of God.  Francis: Amen. I mean, there's something about getting your eyes off yourself and onto God and on His mission that just—I mean, it's beautiful to me! It's gorgeous to me when I see my wife serving other people. I just look at her, like, “Gosh, look what she is doing!”   You know, being in Africa and watching her—putting shoes on orphans; or feeding them; or counseling some lady in crisis; or walking around, knocking on doors and just asking, “Can I pray for you?” with a baby on her back— 21:00 —it is like, “Gosh; she's amazing!” Or coming home and saying: “Honey, is it okay if this person comes and lives with us? I know he just got out of prison, but…” For her to say, “Yes, yes; we trust in the Lord.” It just makes her more and more attractive to me, because I see her love for Jesus and her faith in His reward.  Dennis: Francis, as you were bragging on Lisa, I just reflected on a meeting I was in yesterday, where I was bragging on Barbara. She has a heart for great theology passed on through women—wives/moms—into their families. She's using her artistic ability to create biblically-anchored resources around the holidays that families celebrate to take families back to the Christian roots and allow women—wives, moms, grandmothers—to pass on the truth of the gospel to the next generation and beyond through those traditions.  22:00 I was just bragging on her and, frankly, got kind of emotional about it—because, like you, when you were just smiling as you were talking about Lisa visiting an orphanage / when you see your wife fulfilling what God's design is for her—it can't help but make you proud because you're a team. That's what marriage is—it's a couple who are about God's purposes.  Bob: You know, I'm just sitting here thinking about the fact that central to what we talk about at our Weekend to Remember marriage getaways is the whole idea of oneness in marriage. That's exactly what you're talking about here—the two of you being in alignment with one another because you're both in alignment with God and His purposes for you and for our world. That's where oneness comes from. I, again, just want to take a minute and remind our listeners about the special opportunity they have this week to sign up for an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. This is a great opportunity for you, as a couple, to block out some time to spend a weekend together and to grow together in your understanding of God's design for marriage.  23:00 If you sign up this week, you save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. That offer expires this weekend; so take advantage of the special offer we've got by going to FamilyLifeToday.com—registering online—or call if you'd like to register by phone: 1-800-FL-TODAY. Be a part of an upcoming Weekend to Remember. We've got more than 50 of these happening in cities all across the country. So join us at one of our getaways. Again, 1-800-FL-TODAY is the number to call, or go online at FamilyLifeToday.com.  Let me also encourage you to get a copy of Francis and Lisa Chan's book, You and Me Forever: Marriage in Light of Eternity. It's a book that we have in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. We're happy to send you a copy. You can visit us, online, to order at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800”-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”   24:00 Now, tomorrow, we want to talk about what happens in a marriage when you're not on the same page—when one of you thinks God's leading in one direction and the other one thinks, “No, I don't think so.” You guys had this happen, and we want to talk with you about it. Our guests, Francis and Lisa Chan, will be back with us again tomorrow. We hope you can be back with us as well.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. See you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife® of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

You and Me Forever (Part 1) - Francis and Lisa ChanYou and Me Forever (Part 2) - Francis and Lisa ChanYou and Me Forever (Part 3) - Francis and Lisa ChanFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Marriage for God's Glory Guests:                      Francis and Lisa Chan        From the series:       You and Me Forever (Day 2 of 3)  Bob: It was after a trip to Africa that Francis Chan came back to his home in the United States and told his wife he thought God wanted their family to downsize. Lisa wasn't so sure.  Lisa: I didn't want to give up my things. I didn't want to move into a smaller home. It was like this ripping that was happening. Of course, because God is so faithful—and every time, He says, “If you lose your life for My sake, you will find it,”—on the flip side is when I got to see the joy of it and, eventually, got to go to Africa with Francis. I was just brokenhearted at my own resistance and sinfulness because I wished I could have had those feelings [of joy] on the outset.  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, January 23rd. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine.  1:00 Lisa Chan says that God's Word is true when it says, “Whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” That's true, even in marriage. We'll talk more about that today with Francis and Lisa Chan. Stay with us.   And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. We've been hearing, both last week and again this week, from a lot of our listeners who are getting in touch with us about the special offer that expires this week on our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways. For those of you who are new listeners to FamilyLife Today, the Weekend to Remember is the two-and-a-half-day getaway we do for couples in cities all across the country. It's a great romantic time away together, where you learn what the Bible teaches about God's design for marriage.  If you sign up for one of these getaways before the end of the week, you will save 50 percent off the regular registration fee as a FamilyLife Today listener.  2:00 We are encouraging you to get more information—go to FamilyLifeToday.com—find out when a getaway is going to be in a city near where you live and then block out that weekend, and call and register now to save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. The number to call is 1-800-FL-TODAY. You can also register online at FamilyLifeToday.com. I know some of these getaways are starting to get close to selling out, so don't hesitate. Join us at an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway, and register this week to save 50 percent off the regular registration fee.  Now, I've got to be honest—I'm not sure I want to talk to the couple we have joining us today, because they just shared with us they've had like 12 fights in the past 21 years. I'm kind of like, “Bring me some couples I can relate to a little more”; you know? [Laughter] 3:00 Dennis: Well, I was thinking: “We've been married double that. We've got more than 24, though,”—[Laughter]—doubling your dozen that you've had. Francis and Lisa Chan join us on FamilyLife Today. Welcome back.  Francis: Thank you.  Lisa: Thank you.  Dennis: They've written a book called You and Me Forever. In case there is a listener who doesn't know who this couple is—they live in the Bay Area of Northern California. They are about church planting there—also, ministering to men / I assume it's only men coming out of prison.  Francis: Yes; we've been trying to start a women's home as well. So, right now, it's just the guys coming out of prison.  Dennis: I want to go to something you mention in your book. You made this statement—you said, “If you could manuscript your prayers of what you've prayed about for the last month, what would they reveal about you, as a couple?”   Francis: So, it's like what David says in Psalm 27, verse 4, when he says, “This one thing I ask of the Lord and that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord and to inquire in His temple.”   4:00 That was his one prayer request: “God, I want You—I want You. I want to see You. I want to be with You.”   So, the question is: “Give me a manuscript of your prayers for the last month. I want to hear: ‘What do you hunger for? What do you want?' You're coming before the Creator, the Sovereign One, who is in control of this whole earth; and what are you asking for?”   Dennis: Yes.  Bob: And most of us are asking for: “Fix this,”— Francis: Yes.  Bob: —“Make life easier or better— Francis: Yes.  Bob: —“for me”; right?   Francis: Amen!  Bob: So, if that's—I mean, is it illegitimate for us to pray— Francis: No.  Bob: —“I'd like things to go better in my life”?   Francis: No; you know, it's—the Lord tells us to bring what we desire before Him; but also, the things that we desire reveal a lot about us; you know?  It opens our eyes to: “Wow! That's what I'm about?—is: ‘Get rid of all my problems,'”—because I don't see that in Scripture. It's more about, “God, give me the strength to make it through this—develop my character through these trials.”  You know, that's what I see in Scripture.  5:00 Lisa: How much of my prayers do I pray for Francis?  Do I pray for his walk with God?  Do I pray that God would help in his moments of temptation?  I mean, that's something that has developed in my life that softens my heart towards him—helps me to love him better. I want to be praying for him because who else is going to pray for him the way that I will?   Dennis: One of the things that I try to do, when I pray over my meal at lunch—I don't do it every time—but I try to pray for my wife Barbara and her walk—that she'll see God show up in her life, and she'll respond to Him, and she will grow in her faith. Then, if I'm having lunch with another guy, pray for his wife as well.  I don't think a lot of us are challenging one another with that concept, Francis—that you speak of in your book—of really making sure your prayers are about the agenda of what God's up to; because He is at work in your spouse's life, in your children, and in your extended family as well.  6:00 Francis: I just recently started running; you know?  I was getting out of shape; and so, I've been running around this track at my daughter's school. Every lap, I'll pray for a different kid. So, it's nice to have seven kids and a wife. [Laughter] It's, at least, two miles a day that I'm running, which is good. As I'm praying, the prayers aren't: “Oh, help us get along better,” or “Help this,” “Help that.”  It's like: “God, make my wife just this amazing warrior for you. Give her even greater love / greater capacity.” “Help my daughter, as she's in this school right now, to take a stand for you. It's about Your kingdom.” “Use them to influence other people—my kids in grade school / my kid in Little League—have him influence this team.” It's about God: “Your kingdom—Your kingdom come.”   Dennis: Lisa, tell the truth. When he starts praying like that— Lisa: Does it scare me?  [Laughter]   Dennis: —do you get scared?   Lisa: No; you know, my immediate thought was: “I'm so glad he's praying for me! I need it.”  That is, honestly, my first thought. [Laughter]   7:00 Bob: I want to go back—because you said your dad said, “No,” the first two times to Francis— Lisa: They are going to feel so bad about that. [Laughter]   Bob: But, as a daddy, I understand wanting to protect— Dennis: Oh, yes!   Bob: —my daughter— Dennis: Absolutely!  Bob: —and along comes Francis, who—as you said—they weren't sure if he was crazy about God or just crazy. And your journey together has been a journey of risk and a journey of faith; that, honestly, I can understand a daddy going, “This may be more risk than I raised my little girl for.” Do you know what I'm talking about?   Lisa: Yes; and I've seen that tension in them. There have been times when I've just had to cry and be honest with them, like, “I need you to support me and say, ‘You are never going to regret surrendering to God and giving things up.'”  That's hard when you have that parent's heart that immediately wants to protect. I have it, too, with all of my kids.  8:00 So, I do get it in a different way now; but how much I want to encourage parents to be that voice of courage for their kids—married or not; married 20 years / 30 years—still be that voice that says: “Honey, go for it! Don't look back. Surrender it all to God, because He's got you.” Bob: But there have to have been times when crazy Francis came to you and said, “I think the Lord is saying this,” and your immediate answer wasn't, “Yes, let's go for that,”— where you had to kind of go:  Lisa: Oh, yes.  Bob: —“Really?  There is a cost here.”   Lisa: One of the hardest—the first most difficult was when he had come back from Africa. I had not been with him on that trip. God completely wrecked him. He wanted to sell our home and cut our house size from 2,000 square foot to 1,000 square foot—it was, literally, right in half.  9:00 We had two kids. We had a couple of people living with us—we always have—but he wanted to move. He was like: “I can't do this anymore. I need to give something up in order to love these kids that I saw.”   It was love-motivated, which was so awesome; but I was so honest with him—I said, “I wasn't with you. I don't feel love in my heart; I feel more like, this is going to stink!” [Laughter] No; I mean, I'm just being honest. I didn't want to give up my things. I didn't want to move into a smaller home. It was like this ripping that was happening. Of course, because God is so faithful—and every time He says, “If you lose your life for My sake, you will find it,”—on the flip side is when I got to see the joy of it and eventually got to go to Africa with Francis. I was just brokenhearted at my own resistance and sinfulness because I wished I could have had those feelings [of joy] on the outset.  Bob: Your immediate reaction was, “I don't know.”  10:00  Lisa: It was: “I don't want to, but I will do what is in your heart. I will not stand in the way of what you want to do.”  And so—   Bob: And were you still—on the day you were moving into a 1,000 square-foot house, were you going: “I don't want to do this,” or had—by that time, had you started to go, “Okay; I guess this is going to be okay,” or what?   Dennis: Or did you negotiate a 1,500 square-foot home?  [Laughter]   Lisa: No, it was 1,000; and it was hard. I think the initial reaction was the hardest. Then, it was, “Swallow it.”  Then, it was, “This is going to be fine.”  Then, it was: “Why am I so stupid?  This has been the best thing.”  It was one of our favorite homes. We had the best neighbors that we reached out to and just loved. It was the tiniest, little thing. We had six of us, eventually, there. We had two more kids there; and then, we had two girls living with us. We moved up to eight living in that little, tiny house.  11:00 Dennis: Francis, if I've learned anything in the years I've been married, in order for our wives to have that kind of response, you have to have loved her with a love that results in respect and the ability to trust—when her heart isn't quite yet in it—but she knows she's got to go with you because she's committed to you and she's committed to the mission. Talk about your love for Lisa and how you have built that kind of trust.  Francis: I think, not to over-spiritualize it, but I do really believe that one of the things I've been able to help Lisa with is to trust in the Lord. So, when it came to a bigger decision—like the house—she had seen God's faithfulness in the past, and I think that's where the trust was. She was trusting that I was following the Lord and that the Lord was going to bless our steps, as long as we just keep going, and even sacrificing/denying ourselves during those times we didn't feel like it.  12:00 At the same time, we had been around the world. They would find us, even right now, having this conversation—about a 1,000 square-foot home, with toilets and air-conditioning—just absolutely laughable!  Dennis: —that that's a sacrifice.  Francis: Exactly!—because this is their dream house. So, I don't want to sit here and go, “Oh, you guys, we really suffered.”  It's like: “Man, that's luxury. We're living in America.”   Lisa: That's why it wasn't until after I had been with him into some of those areas of extreme poverty that I did feel so stupid for complaining and thinking that I was sacrificing so much. I said, “Oh, I would have sacrificed more.”  I said, “We could live in a tent,”—although that would probably be really hard—[Laughter]—but—   Dennis: You kind of looked at him— Bob: “Don't plant any ideas!”  [Laughter] Dennis: Well, that's what she was thinking—she was going: “Oh, no! We're going to downsize from 1,000 square feet.”   Francis: And that's crossed my mind—that's happened—the tent. Laughter]   Dennis: Francis, let's talk about how you are the spiritual lover and leader of Lisa and your family.  13:00 You've got a lot going on in your life out there: “How do you love Lisa? How do you provide the kind of mandate that Ephesians 5 talks about—‘Husbands, love you wives as Christ loved the church'?” Francis: It's something the Lord put in me. It's weird because I didn't really have that, growing up; and yet, it's so natural to me. It's not like I have to force myself to love my kids, and to enjoy them, or force myself to spend time with Lisa. I am gone a lot, but all the kids know I want to be at home with them. A lot of times, I will take them with me on some of my speaking engagements—I'll take one kid at a time.  So, I do serve kids—you know, my kids— through relationship, through just laughing with them, and teaching them, and disciplining them, and getting the time with them. A lot of times, we're just in ministry together.  14:00 Dennis: Lisa, we'll let you answer the question too: “How does he love you?”   Lisa: Well,— Dennis: And again— Lisa: —practically speaking,— Dennis: —not in an idealistic way—yes; in a practical way.  Lisa: Yes; one of the nicest things—that every mother will appreciate—is those nights, when he'll see that I have been in the home / I have had the little people all over me—and the big ones, sometimes, that have the emotional needs that go far beyond your little ones—and he'll just say: “Honey, I got this. You just go to Target—[Laughter]—just walk around Target, aimlessly, with a Diet Coke in your hand.”  [Laughter]  That is such a blessing. He knows when I need a little moment to myself; and he knows those times when he'll say: “Hey, we've got our high schoolers still at home. They are going to watch the little ones. You and I are going to go grab dessert really quick.”  That is how he shows love—it is to sneak a little time away / grab some dessert or just to let me go have a moment to myself.  15:00 Bob: As I hear you guys describe your marriage and how this works out for you, I hear a strong sense of mutuality; but I also hear there's leadership, and there's responding to leadership. You know, there is tension, even among Christians today, about: “What's this supposed to look like? How are we supposed to do this? Is the man supposed to lead? Is the wife supposed to submit?”  Unpack how you think that's supposed to work and why we are confused about it today.  Francis: I think we're confused about it because we've rarely seen a good picture of it. We live in a culture that's very anti-authority—because when have you found godly serving authority; okay?  Yet, that's a picture of God. It gets to the point where we even question God's authority, like, “He has no right to give me these rules.”  We forget that, no, those rules were to protect you / they were to give you life.  16:00 He is a wonderful authority!  I mean, that's the whole rebellion of Adam and Eve. It's like: “Well, did He really say?  That sure does look good.”  It's like: “No! You're going to ruin everything!”   Authority can be beautiful. Jesus, who knew who He was—He understood He was the Lord—yet, He goes and He washes the disciples' feet—He dies on the cross for them. That's our picture of authority. That's what the head of the home is supposed to do. If you had that, then, I believe you would see a lot more women, going: “Okay; I see that. I see how it can be good to be under their authority.”  So, I see, in Scripture—it is pretty clear to me that the man is supposed to be the head of the home, but he's supposed to lead in a way that's like a servant that is Christ-like.  Dennis: When a man serves, denies himself, loves, leads, and really takes care of his wife, it makes her responsibility and her response reasonable.  17:00 And Lisa, in the book, I so enjoy what you write on Page 88 because you talk about five reasons why—what has become a very nasty word in our culture / a politically-incorrect word—the word, “submission,”—but it's a biblical term. You talk about why we should do that. I want you to share that with our listeners, because there is probably a listener or two who is losing heart in well-doing and needs to be reminded why it's so important.  Lisa: You know, it was hard when we were writing the book; because we could write a whole giant book about submission and authority—right?—and leadership, but we didn't want that to be the focus of the book. But it is important to understand, for a woman—especially because so many women will say: “My husband doesn't deserve to be submitted to. He is not a good leader. He is not following the Lord.” We're not submitting to our husband's perfection and the fact that they deserve it. We're submitting to the fact that God has given them that position of authority. We're submitting to a God-given position and not perfection.  18:00 There were times, even in the beginning, when Francis was not kind and nice about his authority and leadership; but I am still responsible, before God, to say: “You know what?  He has given him this position.”  You can't get around it through Scripture. It's not one place that says, “Wives, submit to your husbands,”—it's a few times—look it up in your concordance. We can't be so afraid of obeying the Lord—there is freedom in it.  The second thing is—only our submission to God should be absolute. We don't submit to our husbands if they ask us to sin, obviously. There is a limit, in that sense. We are all under the umbrella of God's authority. So, if our husband steps outside of that, then we are not to join him in that.  Bob: You don't follow him—you don't follow him there.  Lisa: Right. I think one of the most important things we have to realize is that we find ourselves thinking that we're fighting against our husbands; but ultimately, we're fighting against God.  19:00 That is not something we want to do—the Scripture says that God opposes the proud, but He gives grace to the humble.  It takes humility to follow someone's lead; but, you know, you look back at the very beginning—God said: “It's not good for the man to be alone. I am going to create a helpmate for him.”  Why can't we embrace the beauty of that and say: “Wow! I want to give my husband the benefit of my wisdom / my insight”? Then, after I've laid that all down—and I've shown him / I've shared my thoughts and my heart—to allow him to lead / to make the ultimate decision, knowing that I've poured my heart out to him and helped him understand my perspective. It may not always match up. We may not always agree, but give your husband that benefit. He needs you. You are his helpmate.  Dennis: Your belief in your husband is empowering and affirming to his leadership. I think—I'm looking at Francis, who is nodding his head—she has made you a better leader— Francis: Oh, yes! Dennis:—because she is a strong woman.  20:00 Francis: Absolutely! If you knew me before I met her, I am sure you would say: “Wow! That was a major transformation. There's no way he could pull off what he's doing without her.”   Bob: Knowing that she believes in you / respects you—that she'll follow you— Francis: Yes.  Bob: —that puts wind in your sails.  Francis: You see—because my parents were dead by the time I was in junior high—so I've never had support / I never had anyone believing in me. I didn't have a cheerleader—anyone in my corner. Yet, the Lord was enough. The Lord was absolutely enough—so, yes—amen and amen. But He created us in such a way that—now, when I finally had someone who believed in me—like another human being, who I knew was going to be by my side and support me, even when everyone else thought I was crazy—yet, she believed / she believed in me. I can't—I can't say enough.  21:00 Lisa: You know, one of the things I have to say is that the thought of coming before the Lord, at the end of my life, and having Him say: “Why did you prevent your husband from doing all these things I had planned for him?”—that is part of what scares me. I think we have to realize that, as women, we want to be life-givers and we want to put wind in their sails, as you put it. We don't want to stand in the way and limit them and limit what God is going to do through them. That is what should scare us.  Francis: This is what the book was about—eternity. You know, we have this wonderful family—full of laughter / everything else—but that's going to be over in a second. Just to put it bluntly—we're going to die any moment. Lisa or I will stand before God, Himself— Dennis: Right.  Francis: —and what are we going to care about?  So, if I love her, then, it's not just about this time here. I want to prepare her for that moment when she faces Him. In the same way—and yes, we are saved by grace— 22:00 —but I want her to know: “I accomplished the work You gave me to do, Father, while I was on that earth—during that brief, little vapor of a time. I did what You wanted me to do.”   I think that's true love—is when you are looking at someone—and not just thinking of the here and now, where I benefit. I think about the forever and ever and ever—“How are you going… / What's that existence going to be like?”—it's based upon how we live now.  Bob: Is that really your hand print on the cover?   Francis: No; my hand wouldn't have fit on the book. [Laughter] Bob: I was just looking at your hand, going,— Francis: I know!  Bob: —“You've got huge hands.”   Francis: I know; it's freaky/scary. [Laughter]   Bob: We do have copies of your book, You and Me Forever, in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can order a copy, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY—You and Me Forever: Marriage in Light of Eternity by Francis and Lisa Chan. Again, find it online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-“F”' as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”   23:00 And don't forget—if you have any interest in—and I hope you do—in coming to one of our Weekend to Remember marriage getaways this spring / they're going to be in over 50 cities across the country—sign up this week and you save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. It's a special offer we're making for FamilyLife Today listeners that expires this weekend. If you have any questions about the getaway, call us or go online at FamilyLifeToday.com.  And can I just say?—for you to have a couple of days—where the two of you get away, and recalibrate, and refocus, and breathe a little fresh air into your marriage—that would be good for anybody. If it's been a while since you've done that, you ought to go ahead and make plans now to be at one of the getaways and save a little money in the process; okay? Sign up at FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get registered for an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. If you want to buy a gift card for somebody to attend a getaway, those are available at 50 percent off the regular registration fee as well.  24:00 Get the details at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800- FL-TODAY and join us at an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. Now, tomorrow, we want to talk about how marriage and ministry can coexist—how you can be in alignment, as husband and wife, in being involved in kingdom work. Our guests, Francis and Lisa Chan, will be back with us tomorrow. I hope you can be here as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife® of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright© 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com