Podcasts about bob you

As a property management business owner, how do you find the best people to build an effective sales team? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow Podcast, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Bob Lachance, founder of REVA Global, to talk about how you can utilize virtual assistants for lead generation and growth. You'll Learn [01:22] Identifying a Need in the Real Estate Industry [08:53] How to Utilize VAs in Your Business [14:35] Creating a Hiring System in Your Business [19:30] Using VAs for Lead Generation  Tweetables “When marketing consistently goes out, what we find is all those leads end up piling up.” “Over 70% of all sales never happen on the first touch.” “People want to do business with people they see, feel, touch, and like.” “Property management can definitely be death by a thousand cuts.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Bob: Virtual assistants are a big part of anyone's business. In my opinion today, I think you got to start looking at that because small businesses, a lot of times, especially when we start, we are on a tight budget.  [00:00:12] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities daily variety unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. [00:01:10] Jason: Now let's get into the show. And today's guest is Bob. Do you say Lachance?  [00:01:18] Jason: Lachance. Yep. Lachance.  [00:01:20] Jason: I nailed it. All right. So Bob, great to have you on the show. And, Bob, you are helping people discover the top marketing channels that can maximize lead generation when working with VAs. And so we're going to chat a bit about that today before we get into that, tell everybody a little bit about you, how you got into entrepreneurism and what led you to what you're doing now.  [00:01:43] Bob: Yeah. So right now I'll just start right now. I have a real estate investment company as well. And I have a virtual assistant staffing company, so I use my VAs in my own business. So I have a rental portfolio as well as a buy sell fix flip company here in Connecticut, doing a couple of different states, but I started back about 20, 21 years ago now back in 2004. [00:02:06] Bob: I played professional hockey prior to that for eight years and then got into real estate. And you know, from real estate, helped start an education program while I was, you know, working on properties. I did a lot of, you know, fixed flip wholesaling, all that kind of good stuff. This is, again, I'm dating myself, but this is back in 2004. [00:02:25] Bob: And through the process, when I helped start this education company there was a huge need in the industry, just like you, right? You see a need out there. And I'm a lot like you on that side of it, helping people and figuring out, you know, where they could. Create passive income or income in general. [00:02:42] Bob: So, during the coaching program, while I was in it, I realized there was a huge need. Majority of the students that I coached didn't have the time to actually put into their real estate business because they were either working part time or full time. They just needed to, you know, they needed help. And for years, upon years, I was looking for a solution for that. [00:03:01] Bob: Whether it was a product I didn't know back then, again, this is going back from 2007 to 2013. I didn't know there was any services out there, like what virtual assistants were. And then I got introduced back in 2013 what a virtual assistant was. You know what this could help my business So I hired my first one and then light bulb went on like, you know what we could turn this into a business I could take the back end of what it helps create which is the real estate education company And our students could use it to help them grow their business help scale help, you know, get your time and freedom back. So launched it in 2014 and then fast forward today you know 10 years later i've been in business for a while and I also have like I said my real estate investment company  [00:03:45] Jason: Nice. [00:03:46] Jason: Nice. All right. And so let's get into the topic at hand. So, we're going to talk a little bit about leveraging virtual assistants. And so how did you kind of start doing this yourself?  [00:03:58] Bob: Yeah well, when I first got into this, like I said I door knocked first, we didn't have the opportunity to have, you know, virtual assistants do some outbound stuff. [00:04:07] Bob: And I didn't understand, you know, I didn't understand what outsourcing was when I first started. It was just me. I had an individual who was my business partner back in the day, but first year I door knocked. I went from door to door, individuals that were behind on payments. So it wasn't the easiest job in the world, but it allowed you to understand how to build a business from ground up. [00:04:29] Bob: I think that was very important back then. So nowadays you can have virtual assistants do that, whether it's you know, cold calling, whether it's responding to direct mail, whether it's text messaging, whether it's social media, whether it's going out to, you know, Facebook marketplace and going right direct to seller, you also have rarely used now Craigslist, of course, but there's different ways to acquire and use your virtual assistant to do that. So that's just, again, a long and short.  [00:04:54] Jason: So go ahead and tell people a little bit about your company and what you help people do. And I'm really curious because this is usually a difficult thing for business owners to outsource. [00:05:05] Jason: Usually they'll outsource some of the lowest level stuff, and it's usually not towards growth, lead generation, outreach, stuff like that. Those pieces can be really difficult to get dialed in or to do effectively. And so, tell us a little bit about REVA global? Okay. Yeah.  [00:05:22] Bob: So, you know, like I said, we started back in 2014. [00:05:26] Bob: Like I said, I've been doing this for a long time and just to fast forward to what that looks like today and working with property managers, because obviously the individuals that are on your podcast here, I'll speak to them. And I know, you know, many people that also buy and hold also probably do fix and flip or also may wholesale, but it's kind of the same concept, but there's a lot of different tasks within it that virtual assistants can do. [00:05:50] Bob: So what I did is I broke up all the stuff that our VA is doing in my own business because you know, many individuals that are listening to this will relate to a company like ours because like I said, we have a real estate investment company, but we also use our VA's which I think is pretty cool. I think Nowadays, it's very important as a service provider like myself to use it to make sure it works so I think that's a pretty unique thing that we actually have. But what we do, we have virtual assistants that acquire, we call them like a department of acquisition. So if you're looking for leads, you could do cold calling, you do text blasting, you could do lead management. You know, lead management, a lot of us, I'm just like, you will have all these leads in your database, but if you don't get ahold of them the first time, your marketing is going to consistently go out. So when marketing consistently goes out, what we find is all those leads end up piling up. And if you try to reach out to them the first time, you know you have a very small percentage that are actually going to pick up the phone. Right? So you need somebody then that will continue to follow up on those leads. [00:06:57] Bob: And a national statistic is over 70% of all sales never happen on the first touch, right? So you have to continue. And I think that's probably 90 or 95 percent nowadays. So that's what we find in our office. And I know a lot of our clients say the same thing. So that number could change a little bit depending on what you read, but our experience in our office is over 90%. [00:07:21] Bob: So what I mean by that is the first touch, whether it's direct mail call or a cold call, whatever you do for direct mail or whatever you do for marketing, that first touch will not equate to a contract, so you're going to have somebody that's continuing to follow up with those individuals. Very important. [00:07:39] Bob: I wish I would have understood that stat when I first started real estate. But again, you know, you learn over time. Another stuff. If you look at other tasks as well, that works very well is marketing. Right social media management because you look at any type of business if you don't have marketing It's very difficult brand awareness, right people want to do business with people they see, feel, touch, and like so you need to make sure that you're out there You're out in the public's eye. [00:08:05] Bob: I think that's very important. I know you guys do a great job of that Jason on the marketing side of always being out there because I see in a lot of different places everywhere I'm looking online. So whoever's doing your stuff man, great job. So you're doing a fantastic job on that side of it. And then you go into leasing so if we look at property management you know driving leads is one thing, but you also have to, you know, close them. [00:08:27] Bob: So if it's you, me, or whoever's the one on the phone locking up those deals, it then goes to once you own them, you got leasing, you got move in, move out, you have collection, you have evictions, you have maintenance, you have accounts receivable, you have accounts payable, bookkeeping, accounting etc that fall underneath that property management umbrella, that virtual assistants are phenomenal to actually take on those tasks for you.  [00:08:52] Jason: Got it. Yeah. Yeah. So what's the typical process for somebody that could use some help from a company like yours? How do you engage them? [00:09:01] Jason: What's onboarding like? How does that work?  [00:09:03] Bob: I think for anybody who's looking to scale or looking to just get help in their business. You know, here in Connecticut, it's pretty interesting because if you're looking to hire someone in house, you start looking at what's going on with the world and what's going on with the economy in state of Connecticut, minimum wage is up to $15.69. [00:09:24] Bob: So when you start looking at that I know in my area, if I try to hire someone at minimum wage, they don't have a four year college degree. That's just not the highest level individual that you'd want working in your office. And so now you start looking at those things and what's happening around the country. [00:09:42] Bob: Virtual assistants are very are a big part of anyone's business. In my opinion today, I think you got to start looking at that because small businesses, a lot of times, especially when we start, we are on a tight budget. Right. And so for us to start to scale or start to grow or start to hire, we really need to look at what's going out, meaning out of our pocket. [00:10:04] Bob: So it's very important. So they first look at number one, what can we afford as small business owners? If we look at that number, now we start looking at what tasks in our business do not put money in our pocket. Right? And if you look in your world, meaning the property management world, it is a lot of the tasks like leasing, like taking calls from tenants, move in, move outs, eviction process when you're calling attorneys back and forth. What does that look like? There's just a lot of back and forth, right? Maintenance concerns. You get those all the time and those are the things that burn up your time. Your phone doesn't stop ringing. [00:10:44] Bob: So if your husband or wife wants to go on vacation with you and your phone doesn't stop ringing. That's going to put a lot of stress and a lot of challenges in your personal life to where, especially when you continue to grow. You have to put more systems and processes in your business. You know, if you had one house, that's one headache. [00:11:02] Bob: You had two, that's two headaches. You have a hundred, you have a hundred potential headaches that if you don't want to take those headaches on yourself, it's always good to have somebody else take those headaches before it gets to you.  [00:11:15] Jason: Yeah. Property management can definitely be death by a thousand cuts. [00:11:18] Bob: Yep.  [00:11:18] Jason: Yep. And if you get it really well dialed in though, yeah, it can be a really great residual income business model.  [00:11:25] Bob: So Very good. Very good. Well, two sides of it, right? You buy, right? You have an equity play there, right? And if you don't have to deal with the headache, you get the positive income, you get tax advantages, things like that. [00:11:36] Bob: So, I mean, I'm a huge advocate of buying and holding and property management because over time, the more, like you said, the more properties you actually hold, the bigger your income grows.  [00:11:48] Jason: Nice. Yeah. Cool. So, so I love this. There's lots of low level tasks. It does get really expensive trying to afford staff and team members and you don't want the cheapest or lowest level or worst people. [00:12:02] Jason: You know, in the United States representing your business. And so, sometimes you can get people at a fraction of the price point that have a lot more education that are a lot better. And so when you, any of the roles that are able to be done virtually, you open yourself up to a global marketplace rather than just your local city. [00:12:22] Jason: And so, yeah, so there's definitely advantages. So my entire team are virtual and I've got team members in various areas, Canada, Philippines. Egypt gosh, I don't know where else like all over the place and I've hired people over the past and just about everywhere. So yeah. And so, and so I'm not limited, so I'm able to just go find the best and I'm able to figure out, okay what can kind of fit into our budget and what can we afford in order to do that. [00:12:49] Bob: Right. And to your point, to get back to what that looks like, I mean, anyone in this world could go out and go source for their own candidates. You know, we set up a very unique system process. We have a whole sourcing and recruiting team. All my virtual assistants are in the Philippines. We set up a sourcing and recruiting team out of the Philippines, so they're Looking through, you know, thousands of resumes every single month sifting through and we're getting the best of those Resumes that come in as soon as they pass then they go through an interview process. [00:13:22] Bob: They pass the interview process They go to our training team and they train for about a month on various tasks property management tasks lead generation tasks, etc And then once they actually get to the end of that stage, they do another test and a lot of individuals do not pass our testing phase. And that's a positive thing because, you know, that's a way to kind of weed out the individuals that wouldn't make it, yeah, very good. [00:13:48] Bob: So, after that goes to our placements team and our placements team, it's kind of like match. com. They look at exactly what you're, you know, what the tasks are. And we do DISC profiling, things like that, and predictive index. And we look at the tasks that they're good at, and we match them exactly up with the client and the tasks that they're looking for. [00:14:05] Bob: So for instance, if someone's looking for a bookkeeper, you're not going to give them a profile that's a sales profile, right? You're going to, you're going to give them the correct profile. You put them together, they go through an interview process, and they pick the best candidate that fits within them so after that, it goes to our operations team. We have what we call a client service manager that helps manage the relationship between you and your va, so it's very streamlined. [00:14:27] Bob: You know, we tried every different business model there is out there and the model that we have right now seems to be the best model.  [00:14:34] Jason: Nice. Yeah, I always recommend if you're a property manager like watching this or listening if you don't have a really solid hiring process you have not like tested embedded and experimented with, then the best initial way to do hiring is to leverage other companies' hiring processes. Go and work with a company and there's lots of different companies I've worked with over the years to get people on my team, and then eventually we've built a really good process internally, but In the beginning, I do think every business eventually needs their own hiring system, but if you don't have a great robust hiring system that you can get candidates consistently, that you know are a good culture fit, a good skill fit for the role, a good personality fit for the role then you need to go leverage somebody else's hiring system. [00:15:20] Jason: So I would highly recommend, especially if you're going to dabble with VAs, especially in the Philippines or any other area, that you want to not be dealing with all the riff raff and the challenges and everything else. You want to have some help with this. So I highly recommend you leverage somebody else's hiring system. And they're going to help you not waste as much time and money for sure.  [00:15:46] Bob: And that's one of the things that's a great very great point because when you're first starting out or you're smaller. The best thing to do is learn off of others, right? [00:15:55] Bob: It's you'll walk through a company like mine. You say, "wow, what a great system." You know what? Document what we do and then implement it in your own business if you start growing. I think that is a fantastic idea, Jason, for that. Because, you know, you look at the biggest companies in the world. [00:16:09] Bob: They didn't just, you know, start being the biggest companies in the world or that, you know, it doesn't, you don't have to be the biggest, but they learned from somebody and they started implementing and they tested, you don't always get it right the first time. But after a while you will hone in and get that right. [00:16:24] Bob: So I 100 percent agree whether it's with our company or anybody else. Like I said, anyone could do anything themselves. It all depends on what you need help with at the beginning.  [00:16:34] Jason: Yeah. And it also depends on how long do you want to suck until you figure it out.  [00:16:40] Bob: That's true.  [00:16:41] Jason: Like so if you want to collapse time, I highly recommend. Because I know when I started experimenting with hiring in the Philippines. Like there's just things you don't even think to ask like we had to ask like where are you accessing the internet? [00:16:53] Jason: Is this like at a cafe at your home? Is it reliable? What kind of computer do you have? You know, we needed to be able to you know there's just so many little quality controls we had to implement in order to figure out if they would be a good candidate, I mean, I've had team members in the Philippines with chickens going off constantly in the background and roosters crowing and like all sorts of stuff and their internet going up and down and so you know, there's there's a lot of quality controls that I think need to be put in place because it's not America. We have a little bit more stability in our infrastructure and in our internet connections and everything else. [00:17:29] Jason: And so, and then, you know, it helps to have somebody that manages the relationship like your company, because a lot of times, in that culture, they can be a little bit shy, I think at times, or a little bit nervous about displeasing their employer or giving honest feedback. And so they tend to ghost or disappear. [00:17:49] Jason: People have talked about people in the Philippines doing this. And so having somebody manage that relationship as a liaison can help improve the results that you're getting from team members. And but the cost savings are awesome. I mean, it's like a third to a half of what you would get and you can get college educated people, you get people that have like lots and lots of experience and skill, and they are able to be paid very well for their area. [00:18:14] Jason: And for you, it's seems like a steal. So.  [00:18:17] Bob: And that's one of the things that we pride ourselves on. I mean, you nailed it. You touched upon all of that. You know, we make sure there's backup. We make sure there's the right internet connection, the right computer system, etc. So to your point that is definitely something for everyone listening to this to look at because the vetting process, that's what I found the most tiring. When I first hired my first VA, I got it wrong a lot, to be honest with you. And I didn't ask any of those questions. And then it's kind of funny to talk about the rooster. That happened to me. And that was before I actually owned the company. And then I started my company. That's one of the things I'm like, all right, we have to listen for, right? [00:18:52] Bob: What's your background, what's your surrounding, right to your point. And then you start learning over time. And then the more interviews you go on, the more stuff you learn, right? Like you said, you don't learn or you don't know all this stuff until you actually go through the process. And I think it's important for you to understand if you're going to do this, know that you're going to have a lot of pain up front when you hire at the beginning, right? And then you work with a company like mine and you'll realize you didn't go through that pain, but then you want to go hire someone. And then you decide to then throw your hat in the ring and do this yourself. [00:19:25] Bob: 100%. The questions to ask, just like Jason said up front, those are some of the things to look at.  [00:19:30] Jason: You know, based on the stuff that you said, I there's a lot of. Property management targeted, you know, VA companies leveraging talent in the Philippines, but it seems like one of the things you brought up that seems to be unique to what you guys do that's different than most of the others, or maybe all of them is the focus on client acquisition, lead gen, and on the sales side of things. [00:19:53] Jason: Most are usually focused on trying to find VAs that are more like executive assistants or that are going to do tasks and be told what to do rather than people that you can trust to be the initial connection and face of your business.  [00:20:08] Bob: You know what it's interesting, again, it's interesting you say that because I've been in this business for about 21 years, real estate investing. [00:20:14] Bob: And we realized over time that If you don't have, you talk about acquisition and lead generation, if you don't have leads for any of our businesses, we are going to struggle to make ends meet, right? So you have to figure out a way that's going to drive in leads to your business. I mean, I know for me, I'll just give you a perfect example. [00:20:32] Bob: When I door knocked, I went door to door to door every day from 10 a. m. to 3 p. m. But when I go home, I'd get that list and I would skip trace it back in the day You'd use 401. com white pages, and I would look for the best possible phone number for that individual then I would call. So when I got home, I would skip trace then I'll call until seven at night until I had to eat dinner with the family. But over time, I was beat up. [00:20:55] Bob: I don't recommend doing that anymore. You don't have to do that anymore because you can hand over those tasks over to a virtual assistant. And they're the ones that are going to be doing the outreach for you. And again, I do recommend you should try it because you'll realize you know, open your mind and understand that outsourcing that task will really give your energy back and bring your success up. [00:21:16] Bob: You may feel, well, I don't think anyone could do that task better than me. We all said, I know you said it before, Jason, I've said it. We all feel that way. And if you think about it, if they do 80 percent as good as you, that's a huge win. Now you get to do other tasks. That's going to drive business and revenue to your business. [00:21:36] Jason: Even if they do it half as well as you, but they're getting. You know, half the result and you're able to hire two or three of them and not do that work. Like it's easily time and money well spent. So it's consistency, right?  [00:21:48] Bob: It's all the consistency. If you have something, a task that gets on a consistent manner, consistent basis every single day, you will get results by the end of the week. [00:21:58] Jason: Yeah. So what are kind of SLA you know, you know, what do you sort of think are the metrics or KPIs for as an appointment setter or somebody trying to help, you know, maybe reaching out directly to owners or maybe reaching out to schedule, I don't know, appointments with real estate agents to build referral relationships. [00:22:17] Jason: How many calls should they make a day? If this is their full time gig and how many appointments do you think they should be booking?  [00:22:22] Bob: Well, it depends. So if you have, so for instance, if you have a, you know, triple line dialer, as an example, it depends if you're, you know, calling just on a, you know, on your phone and just dial like this, but there's a lot of very good technology out there. [00:22:36] Bob: You got mojo dialer, you have things like that actually are very good. You may have a company that you refer, Jason, that you could tell everyone but you're probably calling if you're full time, anywhere between 400 and 600 dials using that dialer, not manual dialing. You're probably going to hit about a hundred, 150 if you're manually dialing. [00:22:57] Bob: And that's a day. Yeah. But if you have a triple line dialer, you're going to hit on average 400 to 600 and this is just what I've seen through the years that I've been doing this. You may have a technology that burns through a thousand calls and then you're going to be listening to me saying, well, Bob, you're a hundred percent wrong. [00:23:13] Bob: I'm just telling you what I see on a daily basis and what comes out of, you know, mine and my client's offices.  [00:23:19] Jason: I think yeah, even if they're doing it manually, if they can get a hundred to two hundred calls a day and get two appointments booked a day, like, so they're getting roughly about 10 a week. [00:23:27] Jason: Like that's a solid result for an appointment setter.  [00:23:31] Bob: That's a win. That's a win. You're looking at, if you're looking for, so we call them ITS's in our office, interested to sell. I know other people call it different, but that's what we look for. Same exact thing. One to two per day per VA. [00:23:44] Jason: Nice. Yeah, very cool. And those listening, I'm sure all of you would love to have one or two appointments booked for you per day, and that would fill up a nice little chunk of your time and help you close some deals. So, yeah.  [00:23:57] Bob: Especially on the buy and hold side Jason. It's a lot easier to look at your numbers. [00:24:03] Bob: And I know you have a formula that you guys look at to make sure the rent and you know, what the interest rates are today, et cetera, et cetera, whatever financing you have, but it is easier on the buy and hold side to fit within your buy box, right? Rather than having to go at, you know, 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 percent of the value. [00:24:20] Bob: When you fund it out and then try to resell it. So it's a different kind of mindset. So you're very fortunate if you're going to buy and hold your buy box is usually different than somebody who's either trying to wholesale or fix and flip.  [00:24:32] Jason: Got it. So we've probably got some property management business owners listening to this. [00:24:37] Jason: And for some reason, maybe they're just crazy and they have not yet worked with DoorGrow yet, but they're like, Hey, I would like to grow, add some doors and maybe have somebody do some calls and reach out to Bob. How could they get in touch with you and how can they initiate a conversation?  [00:24:54] Bob: Well, you can check us out on our all of our social, of course, but REVA Global. R-E-V-A Global. com. If you have any specific questions, obviously for you, you could just reach me direct at bob@revaglobal.com.  [00:25:07] Jason: Awesome. Hey Bob, thanks for coming on the show. Any parting words for entrepreneurs that are struggling, they've never hired an assistant yet they, even if they've built out part of their team or an entire team already, which is ludicrous to me, but what would you say to them? [00:25:22] Bob: Well, I would say number one, get started, of course, but number two, I would say you got to set up your processes and systems and get them done consistently because if you just get success here. And then you stop doing it. Real estate's a long game. You know, like I said, I started this 21 years ago and I wish I knew what I knew now back then. [00:25:43] Bob: I would start buying properties back then because right now I'd be retired with thousands of doors and rental income of a thousand doors. But I started a little bit later.  [00:25:54] Jason: Hey, Bob, we appreciate you coming and hanging out with me on the DoorGrow show today. And I'm excited to see if you helped maybe some of our clients listening or some of the people let me know what results they get and maybe we'll have you come back on. [00:26:07] Bob: Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.  [00:26:08] Jason: All right. So if you are a property management entrepreneur, you're struggling to add doors, you're struggling to figure out how to grow your business. We want to help you. We want to support you. Reach out to us at DoorGrow. com. You can also join our free community at DoorGrow club. com. Go there. Answer the questions. We reject 60 to 70 percent of applicants. It's just for property management business owners And if you get inside, we'll give you some free stuff that'll help you out and help out your business. So that's it for today until next time to our mutual growth I'm, Jason Hull, and I hope you crush it. [00:26:40] Jason: Bye, everybody. [00:26:40] Jason: You just listened to the DoorGrowShow We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com Listen everyone is doing the same stuff SEO PPC pay-per-lead content social direct mail and they still struggle to grow at DoorGrow We solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business Find out more at doorgrow.com Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe until next time take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

If you've ever thought, ‘I've been through something life-changing—I need to share this,' then stop scrolling. This episode is for you. We're diving into an exclusive workshop with Bryan Harris, one of the sharpest entrepreneurs I've ever met, who has built a blueprint for turning your personal transformation into a $10,000/month coaching business. This isn't fluff. It's a proven process built on real-world experience and a decade of helping others succeed. Get ready for mindset shifts, strategies that actually work, and a step-by-step guide to turning your vision into reality.  

Get ready to dive deep into the future of Vocational Rehabilitation (VR) with Dr. Joe Ashley and Dr. Bob Schmidt in our latest episode! Joe, the dynamic Project Director of the VR-ROI initiative at George Washington University, teams up with Bob, one of the leading economists and the Project Research Coordinator, to bring you insider knowledge on revamping return on investment models for VR programs. They're on a mission to streamline and elevate how VR agencies operate, helping them become more efficient, effective, and impactful. Their discussion is packed with actionable insights that will empower your agency to sharpen its data collection strategies, ensuring the true value of your services shines through. Plus, learn how to better communicate the VR success story to policymakers and stakeholders! Tune in to discover how you can maximize your VR impact with the latest advancements from the VR-ROI project. Don't miss out!   Listen Here   Full Transcript:   {Music} Joe: We're trying to make sure we have information that the director can use with policymakers, and something for clients and counselors to use to say, yes, this is the kind of services we're looking for.   Bob: The model we develop is based on readily available administrative data.   Joe: It's built on the individual customers and how well they do and what their outcomes are.   Bob: The human capital development, that's what it's all about a lot. Some things just aren't measurable. So when you mentioned financial return on investment, that's what we're talking about.   Joe: If you can't capture it, you're not able to tell the story.   Carol: Yep, if it isn't documented, it didn't happen.   Bob: That's right.   Joe: Yeah.   Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today are Dr. Joe Ashley, the project director for the VR Return on Investment project based at the George Washington University, and Dr. Bob Schmidt, one of the five economists working on the project and the project research coordinator. So, Joe, how are things going for you today?   Joe:  Today they are doing really well. Thanks for asking, Carol.   Carol: Nice to hear it, Joe. and Bob, how are you doing?   Bob: I'm doing well as well, at least, as well as Joe is doing.   Carol: That's awesome. Alright, glad to have it guys. Okay, so for our listeners, Joe is my colleague and we got him out of retirement to serve as the project director for this important initiative. And this project is funded by the National Institute on Disability, Independent Living and Rehabilitation Research, also known as NIDILRR. Now, this is the federal government's primary disability research organization and is part of the Administration for Community Living. Now, NIDILRR's mission is to generate new knowledge and to promote its effective use to improve the abilities of individuals with disabilities to perform activities of their choice in the community and to expand society's capacity to provide full opportunities and accommodations for its citizens with disabilities. NIDILRR achieves this mission by funding research, demonstration, training, technical assistance, and related activities to maximize the full inclusion and integration into society, employment, independent living, family support, and economic and social self-sufficiency of individuals with disabilities of all ages. They also promote the transfer of, and use and adoption of rehab technology for individuals with disabilities in a timely manner, and also ensure the widespread distribution and usable formats of practical, scientific and technological information. And they do address a wide range of disabilities and impairments across populations of all ages. Now, Joe, I know you have a little disclaimer you wanted to make.   Joe: Yeah, I just want to be sure that people understand that what Bob and I are going to talk about today is our opinion of what return on investment should be, and is not necessarily reflect what NIDILRR is looking at.   Carol: Excellent. Well thanks Joe. Let's dig in. So, Joe, why don't you kick us off and tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey in vocational rehabilitation?   Joe: Carol, I've been in rehabilitation for quite a while. I worked with the Virginia Department for Aging and Rehabilitative Services, the general agency in Virginia, for over 25-27 years, most of the time as an assistant commissioner in a variety of roles. I have a master's in rehabilitation counseling from the University of South Carolina. That sort of got me focused on vocational rehabilitation. And then later I had a Doctorate in rehabilitation from SIU at Carbondale that took me on a path of looking at program evaluation and program development. When I got to Virginia, I was working out of the Woodrow Wilson Rehab Center, now called Wilson Rehabilitation Center, and was working in a program that was collaborative across, it was one of the early transition grants, 1985,and it looked at vocational evaluation as a part of a process to help kids learn what they needed to do. And we were working with students from special education and vocational education in the schools, and vocational rehabilitation, and getting these systems to collaborate to help kids find out what they want to do and to be successful in employment and in life. And I got to where I really enjoyed that kind of collaborative work, and I ended up as an assistant commissioner in the agency, looking at developing innovative new programs as a part of my responsibilities and looking at a lot of the ancillary support services like rehabilitation, engineering and other kinds of things. Through a series of circumstances, I ended up as the director of the field services for four years, where I began to get a good sense of what disabilities needed to be in terms of supports to be successful in employment and being able to live successfully in their communities. In addition to that, what counselors and other staff needed to be able to provide those services to them. And then I got into the job that was my favorite, which was something called grants and special programs, where I did a lot of the Social Security stuff, cost reimbursement, work, incentives specialist advocates. We created a new system there to do fee for service for the work incentive services. We did a lot of work with the workforce agencies. I did all the agreements with that, and then I got to do grants and any of the grants that helped people with disabilities be able to live and work and thrive in their communities were things that we were willing to support. And I got to work with a lot of different funding systems and across a lot of different systems, you know, Special Ed workforce systems, behavioral health, a lot of different groups to help people with disabilities have opportunities. So that's what I really enjoyed. And that's where I came across the late doctor David Dean and then Bob Schmidt as a part of that package with Dean. And it was about telling the VR story. And I got real passionate about how do you tell this story in a way that is going to get people like GAO to pay attention, as well as help directors with policymakers and individuals and counselors help make decisions about what's a good choice for them. So that's really how I got to where we are today with this new grant.   Carol: Very cool Joe. I know we all look to your program in Virginia for kind of the cutting edge stuff that was happening, because you all seem to always have just something cooking.   Joe: Yes.   Carol: It didn't matter what. And especially like the disability work incentive stuff that you were talking about and all of that. Oh gosh. I just think you've done a lot of stellar things there.   Joe: Well thank you. It was fun.   Carol: It's awesome. So, Bob, tell us a little bit about yourself.   Bob: Sure. Happy to. Joe mentioned Doctor David Dean. He was a colleague of mine in the Department of Economics at the University of Richmond. He worked on what he called economics of disability, and he started working on that in graduate school at Rutgers with a faculty member there. And he worked on that. So that was in the 1980s. He came to the University of Richmond, and he got me interested in it because he was an outgoing, gregarious, very bright guy and made friends easily. So he got me involved in this probably early 1990s, and we started working with DARS and several other things at the time with Joe, but also Kirsten Roe. I don't know how many people remember her, but she was instrumental in all the work we did. So this is actually our third grant with NIDILRR. The first one was a demonstration grant. So it's a kind of a proof of concept. Second was implementing it. Now this one is refining it and taking it to the next step. That's what we're trying to do with that. So David got me excited about it. Joe keeps me excited and he keeps me honest.   Carol: That is awesome. Well, I know just being around the director ranks for years and folks talking about return on initiative, it's been a, you know, a hot topic. People chat about it, but I don't know that everybody always really understands it. And I think sometimes people think maybe it's something that it isn't and they aren't very good at explaining it, but everybody wants to do it. So you guys are going to unpack all this for us. Joe, why don't you tell us a little bit about the project and what you're trying to accomplish?   Joe: Well, with this current iteration. It's what NIDILRR calls a field initiated project on their development side, and it's got a ridiculously long title. So I'm just going to say it is about updating and simplifying our return on investment model. That's its main purpose, and it's about helping our agencies understand what they can do to be more efficient and more effective, and take a look at the mix of services that they provide, to be sure that they are getting the most out of the resources they have to help people with disabilities obtain, you know, that probability of employment and upon employment, their earnings. And we're trying to make sure we have information that the director can use with policy makers, that agencies can take a look inside their own services to say, maybe I need more of a particular type of service because I'm getting good outcomes, or maybe I need to tweak a service because it's not getting what I want it to do, and then something for clients and counselors to use to say, yes, this is the kind of services we're looking for. We got four goals, and the first one is just really to update the model. Our previous model was prior to WIOA implementation, so what we hope to be able to do is take a look at the data systems and take a look at the performance indicators that WIOA requires. And we can do a correlation, perhaps with the long term employment to see how well they're correlated. Also take a look at Covid impact. The second goal is about intensity. Our other model is you either got a service or you didn't. And if you got the service then how did it affect employment and earnings? Well, the next logical step according to The Economist and we have five on the project as you mentioned earlier, was what is the intensity of the service. Does that make a difference. So that intensity measure could be hours of work. It could be what it costs to do something. It could be units of service. And taking a look at if that is related to the propensity for employment. The other piece that goes with that is how about internals provided services, what we had before in the system, nobody had good measures of the services their own staff provided. So we're hoping with what we're seeing now and we're working with the two agencies in North Carolina, and they've been extremely helpful and collaborative with us on this process is take a look at the internally provided services and see what impact they have on the employment and earnings side of things. And then we've been told many times our third goal is simplify the model. Right now it takes economists to run it. Well that's not always a good idea for some people. So what we're trying to do is see what econometric models could we put in place to simplify this process so that it's more available to rehab agencies. But you want to make sure it's still rigorous enough to give you a reliable estimate of return on investment. So one of the things we're having with that is many of the folks on the who are listening to the podcast may be aware that we did a data analysis and management capacity survey that CSVRA sent out. Our advisory committee supported, and with that, we got 54 agencies to provide us information on what their data capacity is and what this capacity of their staff is. And then what kind of training they might be interested in. We're still looking at the data from that and we'll have some information on that later. But what we find in this may make a big difference on how simplified the model can be, or whether we need to take a different track to help people be able to implement a new model. And then finally, it's about knowledge translation. And part of that is coming to us like we did a consumer and stakeholder forum with the North Carolina State Rehab councils and some other stakeholders to get input on what they'd like to see, what kinds of information and would this information be helpful to them. And then we're going to have another consumer and stakeholder forum probably next spring to say, here's the model as we have it so far. Does this make sense to you and would this be valuable to you? So those are the big overriding goals that we have for the project.   Carol: I really like that you guys are digging into the capacity that agencies have, you know, with that data analysis, because I'm just thinking definitely, as I've been out across the country that you've got to have and the have nots. I mean, there for sure. are folks, I think of our friends in Texas and they have a lovely team there. Just they have like an amazing...   Joe: Oh yeah, they do.   Carol: ...resource team. And then you've got other folks trying to scrape together kind of a half of a position that can maybe do a little smidge of a little something around the 911.   Joe: they may have a resource like a data system, but they don't have anybody that can run it, or they may have staff with the capacity to do the data system, but they don't have the system. I mean, it's a lot of different variables there.   Bob: I'd like to jump in here just on one thing, which was on the simplified VR model. So the model we've developed, thank God it was by economists, is we're trying to address the question here. The goal of the program is to get people into competitive employment or keep them in competitive employment. If they already came into the program with it, maybe build on that. So there are a lot of things that are correlated with how well you do in the labor market, gender, race, Age, education level. All things are correlated, right? And maybe service provision in the VR program. But we'd like to take it from well, it's correlated, but we don't know exactly how or why. In the same way you can say, well, provision of this specific type of service leads to improvement in the labor market, leads to a greater likelihood of obtaining competitive employment. Now that's a different issue. Now the way you normally do that, the gold standard is a randomized clinical trial, right? Where you take people and you randomly select them and it's double blind. So neither the researcher nor the individual involved in the experiment know who's receiving the treatment, or  who isn't. Well, that's clearly impossible in VR. First of all, it's illegal to deny service to someone who is eligible and for whom you have the money. But secondly, it's impossible. So what you have to do is you have to impose statistical controls somehow. You have to do it through some sort of statistical model. And we've developed one which is state of the science. What state of the science inherently means that not everybody can implement it. So even at some universities, they aren't able to implement this particular model. And so we wanted to ask the question, could we come up with a simplified version of this model, a simpler model that can be used possibly in a VR agency or possibly at a local community college or university, something like that. And they could get similar results. So we wanted to see how could we do it? Is that a possible goal? What do you lose when you do it? Does it do a good enough job, or what kind of qualifiers do you have on it?   Joe: Where are the tradeoffs?   Bob: Yeah, what are the tradeoffs? That's a simpler model we're trying to do.   Carol: Should we talk about the model you developed now? Do you want to talk about it?   Bob: That'd be fine. Sure.   Carol: Let's do it.   Bob: Okay. One of the things is that the model we developed is based on readily available administrative data. What that means is you don't have to run a survey. You don't have to go out and do a very expensive sort of research project to find out what's going on. Instead, we use data from agency's own data system, which they collect to report to the Rehabilitation Services Administration, (RSA). they have really, really very good data. The RSA forces them to collect very good data. In fact, for some of our economists, their eyes just lit up when David told them the kind of data that he was able to access it. Whoa. That's great. So there are two levels. One is you get data from the agency itself, and then they will provide data to us that they provide through the quarterly RSA and nine over 11 report to the RSA. And more than that. So we get much greater detail than that if we know how to use it. If we can identify and know how to learn how to use it. And then secondly, all the agencies have given us access, been able to give us access to unemployment insurance sort of data. So quarterly data on that and what the RSA collects upon closure. They're mandated to follow employment and earnings for four quarters after closure, but we don't think that's long enough, especially since WIOA was passed Workforce Innovation Opportunities Act and changed the mandate to work on transition age, transitioning students with disabilities or providing those sorts of services. Well, if you're going to start working with young people who are just entering the workforce, or you're providing college level education or skilled training services to any age. You can't just follow them for four quarters. I mean, if you're just entering the workforce, you're not going to enter it at the highest levels of the workforce, right? So if you want to know what the real impact is, you have to follow them longer. So with the unemployment insurance agencies, we've been able to get quarterly employment and earnings data from 2 to 3 years before they even applied to the program. That's kind of a baseline. But what are the services do to you? How do things change? Well, that's your baseline three years before application. Then we try to follow them for at least five years after application at least. Now the current one starts in 2018. So the earliest applicants we have from 2018, and then we collect all applicants between 2018 and 2021. So already it's a stretch to get five years of data. But we had to start that recent because we all wasn't fully implemented effectively until 2017, 1819. In fact, the fellow North County says preferably 19 or 2021. But then you don't have, you know, this thing ends in 2025 and you don't have enough data, enough tracking. So that's the first thing, is readily administrative tracking earnings over a long period of time, as long as possible. Another thing is generally the way these things are done or have been looked at is you look at the VR program as a whole. You don't look at by discipline, you look at the agency. These are people who apply for services, and these are people who got to the point where they got a plan or plan for employment services. And then how do they do? We look a little differently. We look at by disability type. First of all, we look at for broad based disabilities folks with a cognitive impairment. And that could be an intellectual disability or a learning disability. Folks with a mental illness. And then also we try to find out how severe that mental illness is. Folks who have a physical impairment and folks who are blind or visually impaired or otherwise visually impaired. So we look at and we estimate those all separately because we think services are assigned differently by disability type on average. And also the disability type affects how you will do in the marketplace, for example. What we found out was for folks with physical impairment, unlike folks who have a cognitive impairment, cognitive impairment might be with you since birth, perhaps. And so therefore you kind of have a steady level of earnings at a certain level. But if you have a physical impairment that often comes on very quickly, very acutely, very quickly. So all of a sudden you see their preapplication Application for earnings pretty good. And then boom there's a big plummet, right? And so then you have to do something different with the track that the pre-application earnings. So that's the second thing. The third thing is that this idea that these folks, we look at the folks who received,, who had a plan and therefore received services, we compare those people who didn't have a plan and didn't receive services. So he received service, he didn't. Or, in economics or the social sciences, you call it a treatment group and a comparison or a control group. Well, we thought you could do a little bit better than that. What we look at is we look at anywhere from 7 to 9 to 10 to 11 different types of services things like diagnosis, medical treatments, college education, training, all those sorts of things. We say, first of all, how is the decision made that you're going to receive this type of service? And then secondly, what impact does it have? So what factors influence the decision to We see what type of services and what impact does that service have in the labor market on gaining and keeping competitive employment. So we look at that. So we look at different types of service. So you can see already it's a much richer type of analysis therefore much more complicated types of analysis. And then the last part is that we built sort of a state of the science model. And that's what makes it complicated for many people to try to implement. And by that we mean that this correlation versus causation. So instead of doing a randomized clinical trial you have to take the data as you receive it. So therefore you kind of build control by saying how do you control for different things that might affect this that you don't observe. Now one of these might be motivation, right? So if you have someone who's particularly highly motivated that will might lead them to both apply to a VR program and a plan, follow through and move on, successfully complete the program, and might also quite separately, whether or not they receive services. It helps them in the labor market, right? Because they're motivated to succeed. So how do you distinguish those things? That's tough. You do randomized clinical trial. You can't because both types people end up in both parts motivated and unmotivated. So we have to impose this controls. And that gets a little complicated. So that's basically the model is then once you're done. So then we get impacts by type of service. We also collect cost of providing those services. Cost of the program. We have those impacts. We let them spit out and say what would happen if they kept getting this benefit level for the next five to 10 to 15 years? And then you have to do some what's called discounting in technical and finance and econ. So you do that and then you say, okay, this is the total gain from that service or actually from all the services combined. And this was the cost. And the difference to that is kind of cost versus benefits, right? Hopefully the benefits exceed the costs, right? And that's how much they've gained because of the service per versus both the. That's essentially what you do. And the other thing about that is we can calculate that for each individual in the sample. So we have individual level returns on investment individual level benefits or effectiveness. And you can then aggregate that up and say okay agency wide. This is what it looks like. The agency's return on investment for a particular disability. That's what their return on investment look for males their females. Any group you want to do you can just do it because we have the individual impacts of it. So that's the model. And we want to see whether a simplified model can get us similar sort of information.   Joe: One of the things, Carol, that I find compelling about the model in particular is something Bob just pointed out, and that is it's built on the individual customers and how well they do in this process and what their outcomes are, and it builds up. So it starts at that individual client level. The other thing, when the economists were developing the model and they were looking at the data of people who went through the system, they observed that there's a lot of variability in the types of services that are provided. So they built the model around that variability of services. So that individual service model, that is VR is what makes the variability work for this model. So it's very much tied to the core tenets of the VR program, that individual services model. And that's where the variability comes from. And that's why it can give us some causation. So I think it's really important to note that it is consistent with how we do services and how we provide what we do. The other thing I will say about The Economist is they have been dedicated to understanding how VR works. They often in the early days when we were going out, they would sit down with the agencies and say, does this make sense to you? And then they would look at the model to see what would make it make more sense in terms of telling how VR works or the outcomes of VR. So they've spent a lot of time trying to understand the system and get knowledgeable about how VR works and what the opportunities are, what the process is, so that what they're modeling is consistent with how we do business. So I think that's a key component.   Carol: I think that's really cool that you said that, Joe, about taking it back to the individualized nature of the program because VR, you know, you think about it in an aggregate, we get this big $4 billion in a lump. And, boy, each person's experience within that is so individualized. It is, you know, whether you're getting this or that, you know, are you getting educational sorts of services and access to training and post-secondary and all kinds of different things? Or are you a person on a different trajectory, and maybe you needed some medical rehabilitation type of stuff going on? You needed something completely different. Like, people have so many ways to mix and match and use the things they specifically need to get where they need to go. You probably can't do it unless you get down to that level. So that is very interesting. Now, Joe, I know we've talked about this in our team a little bit even. And I know you said you wrestled with your group, but this whole notion of return on investment or taxpayer return on investment has been a really interesting topic and is fraught with some issues itself. And I remember coming into Minnesota and the general agency director like taxpayer return on investment, and I was brand new in the program. I'm like, I don't even know what you're talking about right now, but a lot of times you tend to hear it discussed that way. But I know, Joe, you've said there's a lot of issues around this. So what are some of those issues?   Joe: It's an interesting little issue. The very first meeting we had, it was at Carver, and we had a number of people from different agencies and state rehab councils come into a meeting, and we were laying out the first model. And one of the directors at that point said, well, are you doing a taxpayer return on investment? And by that he meant returning Taxes, increase in taxes, receipts going back to the Treasury. And that was his definition of it. That was the first one. And then when we were in North Carolina at the consumer forum that we did the stakeholder and consumer forum, we got the question from some advocates and said it doesn't seem to go away. We always get that question, but the issue is what is the appropriate way to determine the return on investment for a particular type of program. And it was interesting. We got this question so often, even from some of our workforce friends that are the economists said about writing a paper to describe why taxpayer return on investment is not appropriate for a VR type of program. And they submitted it to, I think it was three, maybe four different econ journals, and some of them didn't even send it out for review. They said, this is already settled. It's not appropriate for this kind of program. So the issue is another workforce programs or human capital development. And the purpose of a human capital development type of program is to in our case, find people employment and look at that probability of employment. And then conditional on that earnings, if you've got people in your system and they're entry level, a lot of them are not going to be at the level where they pay any kind of taxes at all for several years. So you really don't have a lot to show when you do taxpayer return on investment in terms of that. Also, one of the things that we noticed when one of the studies that was done is that in some cases, and this is with a particular type of one of the particular disabilities, is the only one they looked at this with when we had some Social Security earnings available data available to us for a short while. Not only do we get people off of Social Security benefits, but we also find people that go on to Social Security benefits from being involved with VR, and that often makes them more stable. So then they can then participate in a VR type of program and be successful. But it's a long, long term process to do that. So in the short term, you're not going to show anything but about as many come on as go off. So you're really not showing that. But if you're doing what the authorizing legislation says you're supposed to do, which is get people employed, let's just take it down to a simple level and then the question becomes, are you efficient and effective in that process? And that's what this particular return on investment model is about. And that is what the economists would say is the appropriate way to look at this. Now they would call this a social welfare type of program is the category they put it in. And then human capital development. But there's other kinds of benefits that accrue to the individual. Because this model, this type of approach looks at it benefits to the individual and to the society in general, which is the individual being employed. And in this case, there are other benefits that we can't observe. Self-confidence would be a good example. Quality of life would be a good example. So in our case, what we're able to observe is how they're interacting in the workplace. And that's really the piece that we can measure. And that's where we're going with this. And the others might be important, but very few places have really figured out how to measure that.   Carol: Well, Joe, I actually I was telling Bob before we hopped on, I said, you know, I threw something in ChatGPT because I was like, all right, VR return on investment. Explain it to me. And ChatGPT it spit out. It talked about financial return on investment, you know, with employment earnings, cost savings. But it was talking about social return on investment, improve quality of life, community contributions. You know people experiencing that enhanced self-esteem, independence, all those things. And then personal return on investment with skill development, career advancement, those kind of things. It was just kind of fun to run it through and go, hey, yeah, because I know you guys have wrestled with like, what are you going to call the thing? Did you come up with like the name, The Thing??   Joe: Yes, it's interesting. I think what we came down with is that we think the vocational rehabilitation return on investment is the name we're going to stick with. And then say, you know, what we have is a human capital development project, and that's how we're measuring it or return on investment. But what we're going to have to do this is so ingrained in the culture of VR that you've got to return taxpayer dollars. Well, that's really not what VR says it's supposed to do. And so how do you get people to understand that that's not the appropriate way to look at the VR program. So we're going to have to do some education. I think about what return on investment is. And I may use your ChatGPT story...   Carol: Yeah.   Joe: To ...tell it.   Carol: Bob, I see you have something you want to jump in with.   Bob: Yes, and I think well, I have several things. One is I think the reason it's so ingrained, I think I might be wrong. Joe can correct me is because agency directors have to testify before the state legislature to get the money they want from the state legislature, right? And say the legislature, at least for a while. I don't know if they're still doing it. They're saying, yeah, but what's the return to the taxpayer on this? Why are we funding this if it's a money losing proposition Well, that's the thought process. But the problem with that is the state legislatures are kind of going against the odds. The federal authorizing legislation, you know, VR dates back to again, Joe can correct me. After World War One, when veterans came back from war and they had some severe physical injuries, and the federal government said, well, let's try to get them services to help them vocationally help them get back to work, get a job, and keep it so that they're effective in the workplace. Well, that thing was incredibly successful. So over time they said, well, this works so well. Can we expand it to other disabilities? Maybe states want to get involved in this as well. So what's happened over time is every one of the 50 states has this kind of co-funded arrangement with the federal government. And the Rehabilitation Services Administration oversees it, where they jointly sponsor these things, and it now covers many disabilities. Some states have more than one agency, one for the blind and visually impaired and one for the general. Other disabilities. So it goes back that far. And the authorizing legislation says is specifically provide services to help the individual gain and maintain competitive employment. And we're back down to the individual with that. It doesn't say to pay for itself to the fed, to repay the state or federal government for those services. So that's one thing. It's not what the metric to do it by. A second thing is, I mean, I never did like the social welfare. I'm an economist who would never call this a social welfare program. First of all, welfare has a negative connotation, even if its denotation is not negative. It's social improvement or anything. But it's really less a social more. As I said, the human capital development, that's what it's all about. And he also mentioned the issue that a lot of some things just aren't measurable. So when you mentioned financial return on investment, that's what we're talking about. Is the agency doing its job of getting people back to competitive employment and leading a better life, and maybe freeing up some of their family work to do other things. There might also be a multiplier effect in the sense that they earn more money, they spend the money. Other people, as a result, earn more money. And economists call that a multiplier effect. So that dollar has more on it. But it wouldn't get measured in this taxpayer return on investment at all.   Carol: Okay, cool. So I know you guys have made some interesting observations in reviewing the data and looking at some of the longitudinal data. What kind of things are you guys seeing?   Joe: My observation is that it concerns me that some people we've  learned recently that some of the states aren't capturing data after the fourth quarter after exit in terms of UI data. I know one state that is capturing going for that after the fourth quarter for their Social Security cases, because it helps them obtain more resources through cost reimbursement. But I think that we're underselling the value of VR when you only do the fourth quarter up to four quarters after exit. And I realize that's a lot more than we used to do. But on the other hand, it's probably not the best way to tell the VR story, because you just don't capture everything. And younger population exacerbates this. You just don't capture it with all the impact of VR can be for an individual over time. So I think that's one of the things I have seen. We had a study we did from a long time ago, from the first since I did with David, Dean and Bob, where we had a program, that transition program, and the students that participated in it were focused on post-secondary opportunities, and they were measured against the counterpart group that went in the VR system of youth. And the other kids typically went to work faster than the participants in this program. But at year six, after application, the perk students took off in terms of their employment, and the other kids just they were still employed and they were doing well. But the perk kids took off with this post-secondary approach, which is what we're being asked to do now. And you really wouldn't have told the story if you only went for five years after application. So those are the kinds of things that I'm concerned about with the longitudinal data.   Carol: Joe, so what about this to with it. You know, like especially blind agencies tend to provide a lot of the services themselves. What kind of problems are there with that and not sort of capturing the data?   Joe: We have seen that as an issue with the 2007 data set. We have in the 2012 data set, we had and our colleagues in the blind agencies were very clear that there were services that they were providing that were critical to successful employment and adjustment, but we didn't have any way to capture it. And so you're, again, you're undervaluing the impact of those agency provided services by not capturing them. And I think that's going to be critical. I think there's some requirements now that they have to be reporting some of this information, but it's a question of whether it's getting into that case management system and it becomes readily available administrative data that can be used to help tell the story of the impact of the great work that these counselors and other kinds of specialists are providing to help people become employed and adjust into their settings. Bob, you want to talk a little bit about what you're seeing in the data?   Bob: Well, yes. And now with the new data set, RSA 911, that quarterly report that all agencies have to provide and again for four quarters after closure that thing now they've made some changes and it's now required whereby types by 32 different service types they report. Did you provide purchase services during the quarter. If so how much did you provide it in-house or was it provided through a comparable benefit, some other external agency and that might have a dollar value attached to it? So we're going to use that data and see what we have. Now of course with any data set. Now I'll tell you purchase service data that's pretty reliable because they need to get their money back, right? They need to get reimbursed. They need to pay the bills. And so they track that through their accounting system very well. But the other things are and had entered often by counselors who are harried and busy and have a lot of other things to do, rather than this bureaucratic kind of form filling out, so it's only as good as the data that are put into it, and we won't know how good that is, but we'll see how much we learn. this way, hopefully we'll learn some things we didn't know.   Joe: What we have been told is that the data is not there for us to capture, and that it undervalues the kind of work that's being done. So we're hoping we can find a way to tell that story, because it sounds pretty important. And then from my personal experience in managing some of these services, I know how hard these folks work and how valuable these services are. But if you can't capture it, you're not able to tell the story.   Carol: Yep. If it isn't documented, it didn't happen.   Joe: Yeah.   Bob: That's right.   Carol: So what are the next steps on the grant and how can we get folks involved? Are you needing people to help with anything, any states or anything we've got?   Joe: North Carolina is, we're working very closely with them and they've been really good to work with. We will be once we get the prototype, I don't know what to call it. The economists are putting together the data system information so that they can begin to apply the new model and that'll be happening hopefully within a couple of months. And then once we've run the model a couple of times, we'll be asking some other people to come in sort of a national audience to take a look and hear what the model is, what it offers to get their feedback on. Yes, that would be useful or that doesn't seem to work for me much. Could you do this other thing? And then we'll also be asking them about. We'll be showing them what we've come up with for the simplified model to see if that version is going to work or if we need to be developing maybe a template RFP for them to use with a local institution that they work with, then they would be able to get the data set. So we're going to be looking at that. We may be asking folks to work with us a little bit on the capacity survey, where it talks about the training that states might be wanting to say, who can provide this kind of service, and would this be valuable to do to increase people's ability capacity? Because there's a lot of data needs out there. And I think if it would help our project, it would probably help a lot of other projects as well.   Carol: So, Joe, are you thinking about that for fall, possibly at CSAVR or something?   Joe: That's November. That should be a time when we would have an opportunity to gather some information. Yeah, because we might be ready for it by then. Of course, that might put a little pressure on the economists, but I don't mind doing that.   Carol: Yeah. Bob's looking like, oh well okay.   Bob: You love doing that, Joe. I mean, one of the things my major professor in graduate school always said, I love working on a research project where I learn something and what Joe said is exactly right. So we would take and vet our results to various agents. We may make a trip to the agency before Covid. We go and we sit down. We go through everything, explain what we're trying to do when we sell. And then they would say, that looks a little wonky or something, or did you do this? And you say, no, we didn't do that. Yeah, we could do that. Let's do it. And then we would revise the model or no, unfortunately we don't have enough information to do it. Could you collect it? You know, that kind of thing. So yeah, we keep learning things and that's what these groups are intended. That's what they're for. For our selfish purposes. That's what we like about them.   Carol: That's excellent, you guys.   Joe: So November would be good, Bob.   Bob: So you say.   Carol: Well, I'm definitely looking forward to seeing what comes out of all of this. And you were saying that the end of the grant then is in 2025.   Joe: August 31st of 25.   Bob: Right.   Carol: All right. That's coming up quick you guys, really quick.   Joe: Oh it is.   Carol: Well, awesome I appreciate you both being on today. I cannot wait to hear more as this unfolds. So thanks for joining me.   Joe: We really appreciate the opportunity.   Bob: Yes we do.   {Music}   Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: The Broken Screwdriver and other parables, published by bhauth on March 4, 2024 on LessWrong. previously: The Parable Of The Fallen Pendulum The Broken Screwdriver Alice: Hey Bob, I need something to put this screw in the wall. Bob: OK, here's a screwdriver. Alice starts trying to hammer a screw in using the butt of the screwdriver. Alice: I think this screwdriver is broken. Bob: You're not using it correctly, you have to fit the other end inside the screw and twist the screw in. Alice tries doing that. Alice: It's still not working. Bob: You're using the hex bit, you need to swap it for the Philips head. Alice: Bob, this screwdriver has already failed to work twice, and each time, I did a Bayesian update against it being a working screwdriver. It seems pretty likely that it's actually broken. Bob: Tools are only expected to work within a narrow range of conditions. Some tools are so difficult to use that they require years of study to operate. You should only be updating towards the screwdriver being broken to the extent that you're confident you're using it correctly, and from what I've seen, you should have low confidence in that. Alice: I can only judge the chance that I'm doing things wrong from my results with other tools. I've been very successful at using hammers with nails, and nails seem similar to screws to me. The Finicky Car Bob is buying a used car from Carol. Bob: I want to see the car running, to make sure it works. Carol: Sure, I'll take you for a short drive. The car leaks oil. Unbeknownst to Bob, Carol adds oil to the car immediately before the drive. Carol then takes Bob for a short drive, avoiding using the broken 3rd gear. Bob buys the car, takes it home, and it soon stops working. Bob: Carol, you sold me a broken car. Carol: Tools are only expected to work within a narrow range of conditions. It's not my fault you weren't using this one correctly. Bob: We live in a society that has social expectations about the ranges of conditions in which things are normally expected to work. Carol: Yeah, well, in my culture, people don't expect stuff to work beyond the extent to which it's demonstrated. The Suspicious Math Professor Bob signs up for an advanced math class from Professor Dave at a university. He arrives at the first class, and finds that he's the only student there. Bob: Hello professor. So, what will we be covering today? Dave: Hello! The ultimate goal here is teaching you all about inter-universal Teichmüller theory, but to truly understand it, we must start by understanding Zazen meditation. Light that incense and we can get started. Bob: I'm not sure about this. It doesn't seem like the kind of math classes I've had before. It actually seems kind of...crackpot. Dave: No no no. Bob, a crackpot is someone who proposes new theories without being a professor. As you know, I am a professor. You can disagree, but we live in a society that has a social consensus about such things. You simply aren't qualified to make such judgements. Bob: I could accept that argument if you were starting with, say, Diophantine equations or lattice theory, but Zazen meditation isn't even math. I might not be a professor, but you're pitting your credibility against a social consensus of the math-ness of topics, and that outweighs the social consensus of the credibility of professors. Thanks for listening. To help us out with The Nonlinear Library or to learn more, please visit nonlinear.org

Link to original articleWelcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: The Broken Screwdriver and other parables, published by bhauth on March 4, 2024 on LessWrong. previously: The Parable Of The Fallen Pendulum The Broken Screwdriver Alice: Hey Bob, I need something to put this screw in the wall. Bob: OK, here's a screwdriver. Alice starts trying to hammer a screw in using the butt of the screwdriver. Alice: I think this screwdriver is broken. Bob: You're not using it correctly, you have to fit the other end inside the screw and twist the screw in. Alice tries doing that. Alice: It's still not working. Bob: You're using the hex bit, you need to swap it for the Philips head. Alice: Bob, this screwdriver has already failed to work twice, and each time, I did a Bayesian update against it being a working screwdriver. It seems pretty likely that it's actually broken. Bob: Tools are only expected to work within a narrow range of conditions. Some tools are so difficult to use that they require years of study to operate. You should only be updating towards the screwdriver being broken to the extent that you're confident you're using it correctly, and from what I've seen, you should have low confidence in that. Alice: I can only judge the chance that I'm doing things wrong from my results with other tools. I've been very successful at using hammers with nails, and nails seem similar to screws to me. The Finicky Car Bob is buying a used car from Carol. Bob: I want to see the car running, to make sure it works. Carol: Sure, I'll take you for a short drive. The car leaks oil. Unbeknownst to Bob, Carol adds oil to the car immediately before the drive. Carol then takes Bob for a short drive, avoiding using the broken 3rd gear. Bob buys the car, takes it home, and it soon stops working. Bob: Carol, you sold me a broken car. Carol: Tools are only expected to work within a narrow range of conditions. It's not my fault you weren't using this one correctly. Bob: We live in a society that has social expectations about the ranges of conditions in which things are normally expected to work. Carol: Yeah, well, in my culture, people don't expect stuff to work beyond the extent to which it's demonstrated. The Suspicious Math Professor Bob signs up for an advanced math class from Professor Dave at a university. He arrives at the first class, and finds that he's the only student there. Bob: Hello professor. So, what will we be covering today? Dave: Hello! The ultimate goal here is teaching you all about inter-universal Teichmüller theory, but to truly understand it, we must start by understanding Zazen meditation. Light that incense and we can get started. Bob: I'm not sure about this. It doesn't seem like the kind of math classes I've had before. It actually seems kind of...crackpot. Dave: No no no. Bob, a crackpot is someone who proposes new theories without being a professor. As you know, I am a professor. You can disagree, but we live in a society that has a social consensus about such things. You simply aren't qualified to make such judgements. Bob: I could accept that argument if you were starting with, say, Diophantine equations or lattice theory, but Zazen meditation isn't even math. I might not be a professor, but you're pitting your credibility against a social consensus of the math-ness of topics, and that outweighs the social consensus of the credibility of professors. Thanks for listening. To help us out with The Nonlinear Library or to learn more, please visit nonlinear.org

Bob, it has been a while since we have talked to the contact center show audience, and there are some rumors that I want to put to bed. Bob, the word on the street is we got rich and famous and we stopped putting out new show. I've gotten some responses from our fans. Can you put these rumors to bed? What actually happened here? Bob Well, as you can see, I'm calling you from my yacht. So the rumors are not true. I don't think anyone who uses the word customer service anywhere in their title has gotten rich from being in customer service. I remember the times I used to work with my budgets and nobody got rich there. Maybe some famous authors got rich writing books about customer service. I don't know why both of us are not in that category, but I do say we had a lot of fun doing that podcast we did. And we want you to follow us to the next podcast we're doing. Amas Yes. Bob So let's talk a little bit about that. Amas Let's talk about that. And we're going to talk about the new show, the customer happiness show. But before we do that, I went back and I looked, and over the course of those years, we put out over 70 episodes. I don't know many people, and they average about 45 minutes each. I don't know many people who can talk for 3 hours about most topics. Why do you love contact centers and customer service? Why have you stayed in it most of your career? What's in it for you? Bob Well, first of all, if we put out 70 episodes, then I probably have run out of things to say at this point. So maybe that's the reason why we stopped talking about contact. Amas Good point. Bob What do I love about customer service? I love that customer service is almost always a human experience. And yes, I know that digital is going to take over the world and call centers are going to go away. And all the pontificating about how much we're not going to have a call center, I don't think those are right. And I love that human interactions are almost always part of the equation. And it's in those times that we walk away from a company more loyal, saying, that was a good experience. That is why I like customer service. What about you? What's your draw to customer service? Amas I think, Bob, it's a profession that has allowed me to utilize many parts of my brain and my know, there's a little behavioral economics there, right? How do you get people to do things, whether employees, customers, how do you get them to behave? There's a lot of technologies, technology, and a lot of things. And then there is what we used to call soft skills. And one of our few guests we had on the show taught us there was tough skills. That's a great episode. You guys go check that out. And by tough skills, people used to think about them as just pleases and thank you. There's a little art about how you deliver information, how you listen, how you do that. So you have to learn about those things as well. Then there's data involved, right? You got to measure everything because you're trying to do things efficiently and effectively. And as you know, I tried to go do something else for a little while last year, and I came right back and I'll probably spend the rest of my career doing this, and I can't imagine doing anything else. And so we've stopped putting out. I mean, we'll come occasionally and put out some shows here. The show is still going to be up, guys. You can get it. But we have made this pivot. And I got to tell you the story about how this came of. The name of the show, by the way, is the customer happiness show, but the name of the show, the format of the show, all of this came. I took a trip to Bob lives in Memphis and I live in Oklahoma City, and we go and see each other as often as time, and all of that permits. So I go there. We had a few beers in Memphis. We took that really long walk. I don't know how many miles that thing was. I wanted to see the little river thing. I don't know what you call that body of water, but we took that walk around it and we agonized about what this format will be. All we were sure about is we know that we've put out tons of contents to help contact center people around the world till this date. I still get emails that I don't forward to, Bob. They don't come in as often anymore because there are no new episodes. And every time someone mentions the show, it gives me lots of joy that we put that out. But we wanted to pivot to go talk to consumers, the Joe blow consumers out, Bob, and you can share more about. It's been months since we were having that conversation. Why are you excited about this format and specifically talking about consumers? What really excites you about it? Well, I think the very first time. Bob You and I were on a podcast together, if I'm not mistaken, was sometime in late 2019, where I joined yours, and we started talking in the same vein along. What do we get? Could we do a podcast together and our main number one goal was to have fun doing it. And I think we've met that number one goal. I hope we meet that number one goal with this one. But I'm excited because like you said, we talked a lot about sales and contact centers and walk up service and just about every kind of service. And it's always been the knowledge from the inside out. It's always been helping people on the inside do it better. So I'm excited to take all of those years of knowledge of what happens on the inside and turn it around. We did a show recently over on the new podcast about customer service at SiriusXM. And so what we're able to do is we understand service in general. So we're able to take the inside view and share it with the consumer and say, here are ways that you can be a better consumer to get better service. That's what excites me. It's from the outside. Amas I think. I think for me, Bob, similar to what you're saying, I feel like because we were so focused on the inside, the professionals, we were always helping the consumer. We were trying to teach people who delivered your service, contact center leaders, et cetera, to deliver your good service. Now we get to kind of be in the middle. We're going to focus on the consumer, bring all of our inside information in and teach consumers how to do that. I remember I'm a foodie, as you know, and Bob is as well. We both love food. And the book that changed the way I order out is Anthony Bourdain's kitchen confidential. And that's what I hope this is in know. He taught me that don't order the special, don't order the like because he was a chef and he knew all of that inside deal. And he didn't write the book for chefs, he wrote it for people who go out to eat. Until this date, when I walk into a restaurant, the things I learned from him still kind of echoes in my brain. And I hope this show becomes that. But the second reason I'm really excited is the format that we haven't told you guys about is we debated a little bit on the contact center show, but this show is all it is, all of us, not every single show, but for the most part, we are going back and forth. And I don't think it will surprise anyone who's listened to Bob and I over these four years that I win almost every time. So that part also excites me. I don't know if it excites Bob so much. Losing to me every week. But that part really gives me a lot of joy. Bob You definitely win every time you're talking because you say the most absurd things that I've ever heard, much like the. Amas One you just said. Bob But that is part of the reason for me also. I enjoy the back and forth. Amas So we are on the show and I suspect, and guys, you got to check out the show. I don't think the show is us. While it's called customer happiness, we are not on the show talking about how great customer service is. We are often on the show talking about some of the things and helping consumers navigate it better. So let me ask you, let me put you on the spot. What is your biggest pet peeve? You are a consumer. All of us are consumers. What's your biggest pet peeve? Put your customer hat on. Bob Well, mine is always when I'm told this is the policy and that's the only thing we can do. I hate hearing the word policy. I think that we probably make those agents that way because we do have a policy and we do tell them they can't negotiate. But that's my pet peeve because there should always be negotiation. In fact, I'll tell you an experience. I recently was at a well known shoe store and the employee came back and said, I'm sorry, but that's the policy. So I said, well, the policy doesn't make any sense. And he said something to the degree of, if I had a dollar for every time a corporate policy didn't make sense in my job, I'd be a millionaire. And so here's a guy that would really like to help me. Agrees with me that the policy is crazy. But he's quoting me the policy. So the policy for me is the one. I don't know what yours is. What's yours? Amas Mine is maybe dishonesty is too strong of a word. I don't like the fact that I go somewhere, they ask me for my email address to send me a receipt, and then here comes all these emails. I don't like the we will be with you shortly. Your call is important to us. They will call me and they won't call me back. It's these broken promises for me that makes customer service a pain at times. And so I actually prefer just tell me what I'm getting so that way I know what this is going to look like. So, guys, again, I would be remiss if I didn't say thank you to every single person over the years who downloaded the show, who subscribed who liked, who told people about it, who shared it, I cannot know. Two guys, one in Oklahoma City, one in Memphis. Two friends got on the phone and talked. And at the peak of our show, 4000 of you would download the show. I am incredibly just humbled and thankful and just hope we get a little bit of that success onto the next show. So we're asking you to stick with us. Come with us to the next show. You're going to learn something. You're going to hear us even hopefully funnier and more entertaining. And Bob, by the way, is semi retired now, which means God knows what's going to come out of his mouth. So please come join us. Bob Yeah, I'm on my own now. I can say what I really want to say instead of what I need to be careful how I say it. But you can join us on the same channels you're used to. So we're on Spotify, we're on Alexa, we're on Apple, we're on all the places that you get your podcast. We're still distributing to the same places. You can do a search on the customer happiness show. We're the only one out there with that name. So you can search on that. We'll put the link in, put the name at the end of this video. But as Amas said, thank you so much for your listening to us. I had somebody tell me that was a new research analyst that just began to work in the contact center space in a financial capacity as a research analyst. Tell me that she felt like she got more information from our podcast. And I said, well, how many did you listen to? She goes, I'm too embarrassed to tell you how many of them I listened to. But she said that she got a lot out of it and it felt like she understood both sides of the contact center world by listening. So it's just those kind of comments and the emails that you send that have made us keep doing it. We just hope you'll join us in the new one. Amas Awesome. Well, please subscribe. Like comment. The show is still going to be available, we're going to keep it going, and every now and then we'll pop in and maybe produce some new content. But please subscribe the customer happiness show wherever you get your podcast. Thank you all. Bye.  

In this episode, Kasey Klee, Marjorie Comer, and Bob Wiltfong join On Top of PR host Jason Mudd to discuss media relations best practices.Guest:Our episode includes Axia's news team: Kasey Klee, Account Executive; Marjorie Comer, News Media Consultant; Bob Wiltfong, Public Relations Account Director; and Jason Mudd, CEO. Together they discuss the five best practices that come with media relations: preparing, relationship building, messaging, pitching, and following up.Five things you'll learn from this episode: How to plan and prepare for pitching stories  How to build meaningful relationships with reporters What you're messaging should look like How to go about pitching stories Why you should follow up Quotables“The goal for any public relations person is the media list, the contact list and the relationships that we build with the media.” - @Bob“You're always looking to localize a national story and PR people do that with news jockey. What we're trying to do is tie in a newsworthy item involving our clients to a national story. So it's kind of the same idea.” - @Bob“All news is local. And so if you can find a local angle to a national story, then that's very beneficial.” - @Jason“Relationship building is probably one of my favorite things that I get to do as a PR professional.” - @Marjorie“Building a relationship with a reporter doesn't have to be scary. It doesn't have to be this taboo thing. We're all people and we all want to build a connection with someone else.” - @Marjorie “The relationship between a PR person and a journalist could be such a dynamic duo if it's done correctly.” - @Kasey“It's not just who we know, but it's really who knows us.” - @Jason“Every pitch is a little bit of an experiment.” - @Jason“Smaller wins will lead to bigger things.” - @Jason If you enjoyed this episode, would you please share it with others and leave us a review?About the Axia TeamJason is the founder of Axia, serving as a trusted adviser to renowned brands like American Airlines, Hilton, and Verizon. He resides in Amelia Island, Florida.Bob, a PR strategist, and former award-winning news anchor, brings his expertise to clients like Boeing and Sony. He calls Jacksonville, Florida home and joined Axia in February 2023.Marjorie, an award-winning PR professional, has been with Axia since October 2011, skillfully implementing PR plans and handling reactive needs from her base in Joplin, Missouri.Kasey, known for her enthusiasm and attention to detail, coordinates client programs and has been a trusted adviser since August 2021. She resides in Jacksonville Beach, Florida.Guest's Contact Info and Resources:Top PR pros share their tips for earning media coverageTop 5 media relations practices to attract more coverage Support the show On Top of PR is produced by Axia Public Relations, named by Forbes as one of America's Best PR Agencies. Axia is an expert PR firm for national brands. On Top of PR is sponsored by ReviewMaxer, the platform for monitoring, improving, and promoting online customer reviews.

Tom welcomes to the show a successful student of his, Bob Erwin, who has a background in real estate as an investor in distressed properties. Today, Bob joins the show to detail his deal flow and process, how he approaches the beginning phases of a negotiation, and marketing strategies that he has successfully implemented.Key Takeaways00:53 – Tom introduces today's guest, Bob Erwin, who joins the show to discuss his background in distress properties, how Craigslist helped him secure a deal, and his latest project07:00 – Why Bob decided to pursue Tom's program10:36 – Bob details his deal flow13:19 – From small talk to business talk17:50 – Dealing with rejection19:36 – The number one best negotiation lesson Bob has learned from Tom21:55 – Marketing strategies that have worked for Bob25:44 – Advice Bob would give to anyone hesitating to get involved in real estate investment28:07 – What Bob got out of Tom's Total Traction program and final words of advice from Bob32:14 – Tom thanks Bob for joining the show and sharing his storyTweetable Quotes“I enjoy it - vacant property, niches, tall grass, broken windows, abandoned cars, code violations, things like that. As long as somebody is living nearby that property, you can find a way to find that owner and take over that property.” (03:56) (Bob)“You find that there's a lot of people out here who just hold on to these properties. They're sometimes boarded up, they're paying fees to the city to cut the grass and things like that, but they won't sell them. Only in America does stuff like this happen.” (04:31) (Bob)“I don't pray for patience, I use it.” (07:51) (Bob)“When you find that one piece of property and you keep hitting them, and hitting them, and hitting them, and staying consistent and persistent and having a little bit of patience, that often wins you that opportunity.” (10:21) (Bob)“I was in Walmart a couple of weeks ago, and I had on my t-shirt that said, ‘We Buy Houses,' and somebody in line said, ‘You're the person that's sending me those cards all the time.' And it was somebody that I never sent a letter to, but the idea here is that they recognized who I was. I didn't make a deal with them, but I gave them my business card and I made sure they knew who I was.” (24:17) (Bob)Guest ResourcesTom's LinkedInTom's WebsiteTom's Training programDealMachine Special OfferThis podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis: Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy

Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: Would You Work Harder In The Least Convenient Possible World?, published by Firinn on September 22, 2023 on LessWrong. Part one of what will hopefully become the aspirant sequence. Content note: Possibly a difficult read for some people. You are encouraged to just stop reading the post if you are the kind of person who isn't going to find it useful. Somewhat intended to be read alongside various more-reassuring posts, some of which it links to, as a counterpoint in dialogue with them. Pushes in a direction along a spectrum, and whether this is good for you will depend on where you currently are on that spectrum. Many thanks to Keller and Ozy for insightful and helpful feedback; all remaining errors are my own. Alice is a rationalist and Effective Altruist who is extremely motivated to work hard and devote her life to positive impact. She switched away from her dream game-dev career to do higher-impact work instead, she spends her weekends volunteering (editing papers), she only eats the most ethical foods, she never tells lies and she gives 50% of her income away. She even works on AI because she abstractly believes it's the most important cause, even though it doesn't really emotionally connect with her the way that global health does. (Or maybe she works on animal rights for principled reasons even though she emotionally dislikes animals, or she works on global health even though she finds AI more fascinating; you can pick whichever version feels more challenging to you.) Bob is interested in Effective Altruism, but Alice honestly makes him a little nervous. He feels he has some sort of moral obligation to make the world better, but he likes to hope that he's fulfilled that obligation by giving 10% of his income as a well-paid software dev, because he doesn't really want to have to give up his Netflix-watching weekends. Thinking about AI makes him feel scared and overwhelmed, so he mostly donates to AMF even though he's vaguely aware that AI might be more important to him. (Or maybe he donates to AI because he feels it's fascinating, even though he thinks rationally global health might have more positive impact or more evidence behind it - or he gives to animal rights because animals are cute. Up to you.) Alice: You know, Bob, you claim to really care about improving the world, but you don't seem to donate as much as you could or to use your time very effectively. Maybe you should donate that money rather than getting takeout tonight? Bob: Wow, Alice. It's none of your business what I do with my own money; that's rude. Alice: I think the negative impact of my rudeness is probably smaller than the potential positive impact of getting you to act in line with the values you claim to have. Bob: That doesn't even seem true. If everyone is rude like you, then the Effective Altruism movement will get a bad reputation, and fewer people will be willing to join. What if I get so upset by your rudeness that I decide not to donate at all? Alice: That kind of seems like a you problem, not a me problem. Bob: You're the one who is being rude. Alice: I mean, you claim to actually seriously agree with the whole Drowning Child thing. If you would avoid doing any good at all, purely because someone was rude to you, then I think you were probably lying about being convinced of Effective Altruism in the first place, and if you're lying then it's my business. Bob: I'm not lying; I'm just arguing why you shouldn't say those things in the abstract, to arbitrary people, who could respond badly. Sure, maybe they shouldn't respond badly, but you can't force everyone to be rational. Alice: But I'm not going out and saying this to some abstract arbitrary person. Why shouldn't you, personally, work harder and donate more? Bob: I'm protecting my mental health by ensuring that I only commit an am...

Link to original articleWelcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: Would You Work Harder In The Least Convenient Possible World?, published by Firinn on September 22, 2023 on LessWrong. Part one of what will hopefully become the aspirant sequence. Content note: Possibly a difficult read for some people. You are encouraged to just stop reading the post if you are the kind of person who isn't going to find it useful. Somewhat intended to be read alongside various more-reassuring posts, some of which it links to, as a counterpoint in dialogue with them. Pushes in a direction along a spectrum, and whether this is good for you will depend on where you currently are on that spectrum. Many thanks to Keller and Ozy for insightful and helpful feedback; all remaining errors are my own. Alice is a rationalist and Effective Altruist who is extremely motivated to work hard and devote her life to positive impact. She switched away from her dream game-dev career to do higher-impact work instead, she spends her weekends volunteering (editing papers), she only eats the most ethical foods, she never tells lies and she gives 50% of her income away. She even works on AI because she abstractly believes it's the most important cause, even though it doesn't really emotionally connect with her the way that global health does. (Or maybe she works on animal rights for principled reasons even though she emotionally dislikes animals, or she works on global health even though she finds AI more fascinating; you can pick whichever version feels more challenging to you.) Bob is interested in Effective Altruism, but Alice honestly makes him a little nervous. He feels he has some sort of moral obligation to make the world better, but he likes to hope that he's fulfilled that obligation by giving 10% of his income as a well-paid software dev, because he doesn't really want to have to give up his Netflix-watching weekends. Thinking about AI makes him feel scared and overwhelmed, so he mostly donates to AMF even though he's vaguely aware that AI might be more important to him. (Or maybe he donates to AI because he feels it's fascinating, even though he thinks rationally global health might have more positive impact or more evidence behind it - or he gives to animal rights because animals are cute. Up to you.) Alice: You know, Bob, you claim to really care about improving the world, but you don't seem to donate as much as you could or to use your time very effectively. Maybe you should donate that money rather than getting takeout tonight? Bob: Wow, Alice. It's none of your business what I do with my own money; that's rude. Alice: I think the negative impact of my rudeness is probably smaller than the potential positive impact of getting you to act in line with the values you claim to have. Bob: That doesn't even seem true. If everyone is rude like you, then the Effective Altruism movement will get a bad reputation, and fewer people will be willing to join. What if I get so upset by your rudeness that I decide not to donate at all? Alice: That kind of seems like a you problem, not a me problem. Bob: You're the one who is being rude. Alice: I mean, you claim to actually seriously agree with the whole Drowning Child thing. If you would avoid doing any good at all, purely because someone was rude to you, then I think you were probably lying about being convinced of Effective Altruism in the first place, and if you're lying then it's my business. Bob: I'm not lying; I'm just arguing why you shouldn't say those things in the abstract, to arbitrary people, who could respond badly. Sure, maybe they shouldn't respond badly, but you can't force everyone to be rational. Alice: But I'm not going out and saying this to some abstract arbitrary person. Why shouldn't you, personally, work harder and donate more? Bob: I'm protecting my mental health by ensuring that I only commit an am...

Do you believe equity has finally come to the workplace; that women are now being treated equally with men in business today?This episode of the Lean to the Left podcast features Dr. Regina Lark, author of the new book, Emotional Labor: Why a Woman's Work Is Never Done and What to Do About It.In the interview, conducted by Lean to the Left host Bob Gatty and Mark M. Bello, host of the Justice Counts podcast, Dr. Lark traces developments over the years that were intended to close the male-female work equity gap, and explains why inequality still exists and what can be done about it. She also blasts efforts by Republicans to interfere with women's reproductive health, ban books, and attack the LGBTQ+ community. Their stacking of the U.S. Supreme Court with three conservative justices during the Trump administration while refusing to even consider President Obama's nomination of Merrick Garland was "despicable," she contends.In 2008, before founding her 7-figure company, Dr. Regina Lark excelled in a career in higher education. When budget cuts eliminated her position at UCLA at age 50, Regina started over and created A Clear Path from scratch. Today, Lark and her ninja organizers provide professional physical, emotional, and psychological support to people who wish to clear clutter and chaos from their lives.Dr. Lark holds a Ph. D. in Women's History from the University of Southern California. She helps women rid their lives of emotional labor by offering concrete ways to identify and mitigate the costs of women's unseen, unnoticed and unwaged work at home, and to unleash women into the full potential in the paid workplace.She delivers keynote addresses, retreats and corporate speaking engagements on women's leadership, emotional labor, time management, productivity, hoarding and ADHD.Dr. Lark also is the author of Psychic Debris, Crowded Closets: The Relationship Between the Stuff in Your Head, and What's Under Your Bed.Here some questions we discussed with Dr. Lark:Mark: Quite the resume. Bob and I are proud to have you on our show. This is 2023 and this is a show about justice and injustice. Historically, women have not been treated equally in the workplace. However, here we are, almost a quarter into the 21st Century. Women have finally achieved equality in the workplace, right?Bob: You've often used the term “household management.” What is it and why is it considered “women's work?” And, if you can, please give our audience some historical context.Mark: You also use the term “emotional labor,” especially in your Ted Talk. Please define the term in the context of the inherent inequities women still face in the workplace.Bob: How is emotional labor performed at home? What does it look like?Mark: The saying goes “a woman's work is never done.” Is that still true? And, if so, what can society do about it?Bob: What are some reasons for the unequal distribution of work in the home? Are men inherently better at certain things and women better at others?Mark: If you could wave a magic wand, how would you create equity in your own household and in society's unequal, unjust workplace?Bob: If couples and their children thought of their home as a business, would the structure and delegation of the work inside the home change? If so, how?Mark: A person out there is what society still calls a “stay at home Mom.” She's frustrated by the burdens of Emotional Labor. What can she do to stop the never-ending cycle?Bob: Why is delegating and outsourcing so integral to lifting the burden of emotional labor? Mark: How do we become better delegators?Mark: I believe that men have had since the beginning of time their chance to rule the world and they've screwed it up. It is high time for woman to ascend to the throne—I believe that will do a far better job. Is that possible sometime soon? Is there any hope for true equality or a world led by women?Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-lean-to-the-left-podcast--4719048/support.

Do you believe equity has finally come to the workplace; that women are now being treated equally with men in business today?This episode of the Lean to the Left podcast features Dr. Regina Lark, author of the new book, Emotional Labor: Why a Woman's Work Is Never Done and What to Do About It.In the interview, conducted by Lean to the Left host Bob Gatty and Mark M. Bello, host of the Justice Counts podcast, Dr. Lark traces developments over the years that were intended to close the male-female work equity gap, and explains why inequality still exists and what can be done about it. She also blasts efforts by Republicans to interfere with women's reproductive health, ban books, and attack the LGBTQ+ community. Their stacking of the U.S. Supreme Court with three conservative justices during the Trump administration while refusing to even consider President Obama's nomination of Merrick Garland was "despicable," she contends.In 2008, before founding her 7-figure company, Dr. Regina Lark excelled in a career in higher education. When budget cuts eliminated her position at UCLA at age 50, Regina started over and created A Clear Path from scratch. Today, Lark and her ninja organizers provide professional physical, emotional, and psychological support to people who wish to clear clutter and chaos from their lives.Dr. Lark holds a Ph. D. in Women's History from the University of Southern California. She helps women rid their lives of emotional labor by offering concrete ways to identify and mitigate the costs of women's unseen, unnoticed and unwaged work at home, and to unleash women into the full potential in the paid workplace.She delivers keynote addresses, retreats and corporate speaking engagements on women's leadership, emotional labor, time management, productivity, hoarding and ADHD.Dr. Lark also is the author of Psychic Debris, Crowded Closets: The Relationship Between the Stuff in Your Head, and What's Under Your Bed.Here some questions we discussed with Dr. Lark:Mark: Quite the resume. Bob and I are proud to have you on our show. This is 2023 and this is a show about justice and injustice. Historically, women have not been treated equally in the workplace. However, here we are, almost a quarter into the 21st Century. Women have finally achieved equality in the workplace, right?Bob: You've often used the term “household management.” What is it and why is it considered “women's work?” And, if you can, please give our audience some historical context.Mark: You also use the term “emotional labor,” especially in your Ted Talk. Please define the term in the context of the inherent inequities women still face in the workplace.Bob: How is emotional labor performed at home? What does it look like?Mark: The saying goes “a woman's work is never done.” Is that still true? And, if so, what can society do about it?Bob: What are some reasons for the unequal distribution of work in the home? Are men inherently better at certain things and women better at others?Mark: If you could wave a magic wand, how would you create equity in your own household and in society's unequal, unjust workplace?Bob: If couples and their children thought of their home as a business, would the structure and delegation of the work inside the home change? If so, how?Mark: A person out there is what society still calls a “stay at home Mom.” She's frustrated by the burdens of Emotional Labor. What can she do to stop the never-ending cycle?Bob: Why is delegating and outsourcing so integral to lifting the burden of emotional labor? Mark: How do we become better delegators?Mark: I believe that men have had since the beginning of time their chance to rule the world and they've screwed it up. It is high time for woman to ascend to the throne—I believe that will do a far better job. Is that possible sometime soon? Is there any hope for true equality or a world led by women?This show is part of the Spreaker Prime Network, if you are interested in advertising on this podcast, contact us at https://www.spreaker.com/show/4719048/advertisement

In this episode of “How Do You Say That?!”, Ally Murphy joins Sam and Mark to explore creative ways of approaching horror voices for Halloween - yes, we know it's early - but clients are already beginning to ask for it! We also tackle a video game script in some surprising ways, and bring a little old lady out to play.Our VO question this week is all about how you create a gaming character based in reality, rather than some over-the-top cartoon feel.We'd love you to join in and send us your version of one of the reads in today's show – just pop it onto an mp3 and send it to podcast@britishvoiceover.co.ukScript 1One of the team will be with you shortly. While you wait, here are the answers to some of our frequently asked questions.Scare Village strongly discourages under 12's from coming to Shocktober Fest, children 15 and under must be accompanied by an adult who is over 18.All attractions feature dark places, tight spaces, uneven grounds, low ceilings and terrifying characters. If you suffer from epilepsy, claustrophobia, heart conditions, are of a nervous disposition or are pregnant, we don't recommend this event for you.We cannot guarantee that fast-track tickets will be available on the door. If you do want fast-track, please check availability with a member of our team when your call is answered.Script 2Bob: Okay Hunter, it's time for the age-old tradition of walking the experienced, hardcore death-psycho, cyborg through his weapons like it's his first day on the job…..it's a really weird tradition.Bob: Now, take a few shots at that handsome beast over there. Don't worry, they're, just virtual targets.Bob: You've got it! And I lied, they're completely real targets! Hahaha!!…….And now I have to clean up that mess.**Listen to all of our podcasts here - you can also watch on YouTube, or say "Alexa, Play How Do You Say That?!"About our guest: Ally Murphy is a multi award winning voice actor, working in commercials, video games and corporate narration. Ally has worked on games such as Total War: Troy, BAFTA nominated Vacation Simulator and Bendy and the Dark Revival, and with brands such as Alfa Romeo, Disney and Swarovski. Ally is British but based in the beautiful Pacific Northwest USA. She is also an on camera actor working in commercials. corporate film & short film. Ally's Website @allymurphyvoice on Instagram @allymurphyvoice on TwitterMark's demos & contact details: https://linktr.ee/britishvoiceovermarkSam's demos & contact details: https://linktr.ee/samanthaboffin

For a fascinating, inside look at the criminal justice system and the work of one of America's most prominent trial attorneys, check out this interview with ames J. Brosnahan, a veteran of more than 50 years of experience in both civil and criminal trial work.During his notable career, Brosnahan regularly undertook complex cases that were about to go to trial. He has tried, to conclusion, 150 cases that have ranged from anti-trust to wire fraud and from patent litigation to white collar crime and murder. Some of those cases made national headlines, including those that helped provide important First Amendment free speech protections.Brosnahan is named among the top 30 trial lawyers in the United States, according to the Legal 500 US. A lion of the trial bar, Brosnahan is one of the most respected and recognized trial lawyers in the United States. Recently, he completed a book on notable trials from his career, "Justice at Trial: Courtroom Battles and Groundbreaking Cases," now available at Amazon and other booksellers.The interview was conducted by Bob Gatty, host of Lean to the Left and co-host of the Justice Counts podcast, and Justice Counts host, legal thriller author Mark M. Bello. The episode also will stream on Justice Counts June 5.Here are some questions we discussed with Brosnahan:MARK: Welcome Jim—it's an honor to have you on the podcast. Before we talk about your writing, I'd like to talk about Professor Chemerinsky's forward. High praise for your memoir from the famous law professor. There is a lot packed into those two pages, but I was struck by two comments he makes. I'd like your reaction to them: 1. Practicing law requires hard work and attention to detail-many lawyers work hard. But it also requires creativity-Chemerinsky considers you and your team very “clever,” the term he uses. How much of your success is related to hard work and how much to creativity? For young lawyers out there, after learning what they need to know to pass the bar, how do they develop these creative skills the professor talks about? 2. Professor Chemerinsky talks about a topic near and dear to my heart. At that is, essentially, the bad rap lawyers get. He points to you as an example of how an ethical lawyer and decent guy, (you) can also be highly successful. That being a successful lawyer requires “bad behavior” which is patently false. We can chew gum and walk—can you please talk about being successful and ethical at the same time? BOB: The book reveals that you were diagnosed with rheumatic fever and a possible heart problem at age 3, confined to bed until you were six. Your connection to the outside world was a radio with Jack Benny and a window that looked out onto a driveway where you could see kids playing. Do you remember those days, and do you think they played a role in shaping the adult you became? MARK: Like Chemerinsky, my favorite legal quote is “Justice, Justice, Shalt Thou Pursue.” Having read your book, alongside might be: “Sometimes, doing your best is your only reward.” I love that lesson for young lawyers.BOB: Tell our listeners about the Secody Murder Trial-you had only been a lawyer for 18 months and you have this major murder trial involving the native American community. Tough case for a young guy. MARK: As a side note, I was struck by your voir dire in that case and want to hear more. How does a trial lawyer get a potential juror to admit bias on voir dire?BOB: In the book, you indicate that you were influenced by Cecil Poole, Melvin Beli, and other prominent trial lawyers. You worked under Poole, who was the first African American US Attorney in the United States. Obviously, mentoring was important in your career. Is it still? BOB: In 1966, you switch sides after how long as a prosecutor? Tell us about the transition from prosecutor to criminal defense and civil plaintiff attorney?MARK: One of those cases involved representing two young black activists in the Oakland California poverty movement. Tell us about the case. What were they accused of? Why were they prosecuted? And what was the outcome?BOB: I'm an old newspaper guy. In 1968, at the age of 34, you handled a 1st Amendment case that literally would decide the fate of daily papers in America. Or, was it really an anti-trust case? There was a similar issue in Detroit when the News and the Free Press entered into a joint operating agreement. Tell us about your case and the outcome.MARK: In 1978, you take another 1st Amendment case, this one centering around the movie Born Innocent, starring Linda Blair of “The Exorcist” fame. Interesting issue in that case. The plaintiff attorney argued “People who see movies are inspired to act out what they see,” and argued for censorship. Lots of publicity in this one. Tell the story of an attempt to prove what you refer to in the book as “negligent imitation.” BOB: You were a prosecutor—prosecutors have a lot of power in making decision about whether to prosecute or not prosecute, what you call in the book “The Power to Ruin Lives.” How did you deal with the power and what do you recommend to young prosecutors just starting out?MARK: I've often said that if the government really wants to go after and get someone, they can and will. One of the most interesting cases in the book for me was Steve Psinakis case. Ronald Reagan is often cited as an example of a so-called “good” Republican president. While he may have been an effective president, he was far from a good guy. My favorite quote in the chapter? “President Reagan wanted a conviction of a US citizen as a favor to a corrupt, foreign dictator.” The year is 1986, I believe. Tell our listeners the story, please?MARK: Lots of great quotes in the book. I can't seem to get away from them. “Specialization, so prevalent today, can limit a lawyer unnecessarily.” But isn't that advice in conflict with “Jack of all trades, master of none?” What do you tell a young lawyer today about specialization?BOB: Another quote from the book: “Preparation for trial requires a complete immersion into other people's lives while at the same time trying to preserve an objective view of the case.” How does a trial lawyer do that?MARK: Another quote I like in the book is “Trial lawyers are essential to enrich democratic reforms and social progress.” Why do you believe that? Many people would say “get over yourself.” What do you say?BOB: Last quote: You say: “I have always thought of the United States Supreme Court as the legal conscience of our society.” Do you still feel that way with today's court?MARK: At the request of Lawrence Walsh, the special prosecutor investigating the Iran-Contra Affair, you agreed to handle the prosecution of Caspar Weinberger, the US Secretary of Defense under Reagan and Bush one. Before you could try the case, President Bush pardoned Weinberger, an event with caused you “post-pardon depression.” So, how did you really feel?BOB: Were you able to strike a healthy work-life balance? What did that look like? What would you recommend to young lawyers today? MARK: How would you compare civility among lawyers today compared to during your early years of practice?BOB: If you could travel back in time and give your 25-year-old self some advice about career and life, what would it be? Any regrets?MARK: Let's talk about judges. The judge is against you. The rulings aren't going your way, and you are feeling a hostile vibe from the bench. What do you do?MARK: The USA PATRIOT Act, mass surveillance of Americans by the federal government, and the transformation of the FBI into an counterterrorism, counterintelligence, and cybersecurity agency are all things that happened in the last 21 years or so. As a lawyer and an American who cares about civil liberties, do you think these changes have brought some harm as well as enhanced security?BOB: We hope your memoir will be a bestseller. Where can people find it and what's next on the horizon for James Brosnahan?Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-lean-to-the-left-podcast--4719048/support.

For a fascinating, inside look at the criminal justice system and the work of one of America's most prominent trial attorneys, check out this interview with ames J. Brosnahan, a veteran of more than 50 years of experience in both civil and criminal trial work.During his notable career, Brosnahan regularly undertook complex cases that were about to go to trial. He has tried, to conclusion, 150 cases that have ranged from anti-trust to wire fraud and from patent litigation to white collar crime and murder. Some of those cases made national headlines, including those that helped provide important First Amendment free speech protections.Brosnahan is named among the top 30 trial lawyers in the United States, according to the Legal 500 US. A lion of the trial bar, Brosnahan is one of the most respected and recognized trial lawyers in the United States. Recently, he completed a book on notable trials from his career, "Justice at Trial: Courtroom Battles and Groundbreaking Cases," now available at Amazon and other booksellers.The interview was conducted by Bob Gatty, host of Lean to the Left and co-host of the Justice Counts podcast, and Justice Counts host, legal thriller author Mark M. Bello. The episode also will stream on Justice Counts June 5.Here are some questions we discussed with Brosnahan:MARK: Welcome Jim—it's an honor to have you on the podcast. Before we talk about your writing, I'd like to talk about Professor Chemerinsky's forward. High praise for your memoir from the famous law professor. There is a lot packed into those two pages, but I was struck by two comments he makes. I'd like your reaction to them: 1. Practicing law requires hard work and attention to detail-many lawyers work hard. But it also requires creativity-Chemerinsky considers you and your team very “clever,” the term he uses. How much of your success is related to hard work and how much to creativity? For young lawyers out there, after learning what they need to know to pass the bar, how do they develop these creative skills the professor talks about? 2. Professor Chemerinsky talks about a topic near and dear to my heart. At that is, essentially, the bad rap lawyers get. He points to you as an example of how an ethical lawyer and decent guy, (you) can also be highly successful. That being a successful lawyer requires “bad behavior” which is patently false. We can chew gum and walk—can you please talk about being successful and ethical at the same time? BOB: The book reveals that you were diagnosed with rheumatic fever and a possible heart problem at age 3, confined to bed until you were six. Your connection to the outside world was a radio with Jack Benny and a window that looked out onto a driveway where you could see kids playing. Do you remember those days, and do you think they played a role in shaping the adult you became? MARK: Like Chemerinsky, my favorite legal quote is “Justice, Justice, Shalt Thou Pursue.” Having read your book, alongside might be: “Sometimes, doing your best is your only reward.” I love that lesson for young lawyers.BOB: Tell our listeners about the Secody Murder Trial-you had only been a lawyer for 18 months and you have this major murder trial involving the native American community. Tough case for a young guy. MARK: As a side note, I was struck by your voir dire in that case and want to hear more. How does a trial lawyer get a potential juror to admit bias on voir dire?BOB: In the book, you indicate that you were influenced by Cecil Poole, Melvin Beli, and other prominent trial lawyers. You worked under Poole, who was the first African American US Attorney in the United States. Obviously, mentoring was important in your career. Is it still? BOB: In 1966, you switch sides after how long as a prosecutor? Tell us about the transition from prosecutor to criminal defense and civil plaintiff attorney?MARK: One of those cases involved representing two young black activists in the Oakland California poverty movement. Tell us about the case. What were they accused of? Why were they prosecuted? And what was the outcome?BOB: I'm an old newspaper guy. In 1968, at the age of 34, you handled a 1st Amendment case that literally would decide the fate of daily papers in America. Or, was it really an anti-trust case? There was a similar issue in Detroit when the News and the Free Press entered into a joint operating agreement. Tell us about your case and the outcome.MARK: In 1978, you take another 1st Amendment case, this one centering around the movie Born Innocent, starring Linda Blair of “The Exorcist” fame. Interesting issue in that case. The plaintiff attorney argued “People who see movies are inspired to act out what they see,” and argued for censorship. Lots of publicity in this one. Tell the story of an attempt to prove what you refer to in the book as “negligent imitation.” BOB: You were a prosecutor—prosecutors have a lot of power in making decision about whether to prosecute or not prosecute, what you call in the book “The Power to Ruin Lives.” How did you deal with the power and what do you recommend to young prosecutors just starting out?MARK: I've often said that if the government really wants to go after and get someone, they can and will. One of the most interesting cases in the book for me was Steve Psinakis case. Ronald Reagan is often cited as an example of a so-called “good” Republican president. While he may have been an effective president, he was far from a good guy. My favorite quote in the chapter? “President Reagan wanted a conviction of a US citizen as a favor to a corrupt, foreign dictator.” The year is 1986, I believe. Tell our listeners the story, please?MARK: Lots of great quotes in the book. I can't seem to get away from them. “Specialization, so prevalent today, can limit a lawyer unnecessarily.” But isn't that advice in conflict with “Jack of all trades, master of none?” What do you tell a young lawyer today about specialization?BOB: Another quote from the book: “Preparation for trial requires a complete immersion into other people's lives while at the same time trying to preserve an objective view of the case.” How does a trial lawyer do that?MARK: Another quote I like in the book is “Trial lawyers are essential to enrich democratic reforms and social progress.” Why do you believe that? Many people would say “get over yourself.” What do you say?BOB: Last quote: You say: “I have always thought of the United States Supreme Court as the legal conscience of our society.” Do you still feel that way with today's court?MARK: At the request of Lawrence Walsh, the special prosecutor investigating the Iran-Contra Affair, you agreed to handle the prosecution of Caspar Weinberger, the US Secretary of Defense under Reagan and Bush one. Before you could try the case, President Bush pardoned Weinberger, an event with caused you “post-pardon depression.” So, how did you really feel?BOB: Were you able to strike a healthy work-life balance? What did that look like? What would you recommend to young lawyers today? MARK: How would you compare civility among lawyers today compared to during your early years of practice?BOB: If you could travel back in time and give your 25-year-old self some advice about career and life, what would it be? Any regrets?MARK: Let's talk about judges. The judge is against you. The rulings aren't going your way, and you are feeling a hostile vibe from the bench. What do you do?MARK: The USA PATRIOT Act, mass surveillance of Americans by the federal government, and the transformation of the FBI into an counterterrorism, counterintelligence, and cybersecurity agency are all things that happened in the last 21 years or so. As a lawyer and an American who cares about civil liberties, do you think these changes have brought some harm as well as enhanced security?BOB: We hope your memoir will be a bestseller. Where can people find it and what's next on the horizon for James Brosnahan?This show is part of the Spreaker Prime Network, if you are interested in advertising on this podcast, contact us at https://www.spreaker.com/show/4719048/advertisement

DW Duke is a California attorney and an author of six published books with three more books currently in production. His work has focused on human rights and empathy as a tool to overcome confrontation and conflict in the world.DW currently is creating a series of biographical novels and screenplays about social justice issues. One of his books, Racism Awareness, scheduled to be released in March of 2023, addresses root causes of racism and presents effective ways to identify and eradicate it.Another, ”Not Without a Fight,” is a biographical novel based on the true story of a Jewish boy who becomes a Resistance Fighter in World War II in Poland. The book's message is we shouldn't be erasing history, we should be learning from it. That's timely.It's a pleasure for me and Mark Bello, co-host of the Justice Counts podcast, to welcome you, DW, to our podcast.Mark– Welcome to the podcast. “Not Without A Fight” is your first book based upon a true story set during the Holocaust era. As most of our listeners know, I'm a Jewish Boy and I've also written a Holocaust novella, based on a true story. But, talk to us about your book, why you wrote it, and what message you would like readers to walk away with.Bob – Your next book, The Duke Legacy, also is based on a true story, takes place during the civil war era, and tells the story of a young man growing up in the south, and is deeply troubled by slavery. It isn't lost on me that the kid's last name is Duke—Is this book about your own family and why did you write it?Bob – Our country is struggling with the problems of discrimination and racism. Is that why you wrote “Racism Awareness?” Talk to us about that.Mark: There is a rise in anti-Semitic activities and attitudes in America today. Jew hatred is on the rise. Do you see many parallels between what's going on in America today and the rise of Nazism in Germany in the 1930s?Bob – You have said that empathy is a tool in overcoming stereotypes and discrimination. I would agree with that, but it sounds rather simplistic. Can you elaborate for us? What can the average citizen do to improve our interreligious or interracial discourse?Mark – I want to go back to “Not Without a Fight” for a moment. The boy who is the focus of the book survives the war. Did he continue his activism? What was his life like after the war?Bob – Aside from our racial and religious differences, we have a serious political divide in America today. What can be we do to resolve, or at least ease, political polarization in the U.S.?Mark – Bob tells me that there may be a movie in the works based on “Not Without a Fight.” That's exciting. What is the status of this project and when might we be able to see the movie in theatres or on television?Bob -- You have another biographical novel currently in production called “Because I'm Black.” What is that book about?Mark: Your books are based on rather terrible periods in history. In the first two books, your two protagonists, Thomas Biebers and Washington Duke, hate what's going on in their respective countries during their lifetimes. What would they think of modern day Germany and America? Would they be pleased or disappointed with our progress?Bob – Your work on discrimination and religious hatred is note-worthy and your books take a fascinating look at troubling times. Where can people find these important books?Mark: In the introduction, Bob mentioned that “Not Without a Fight” core message is that we shouldn't be erasing history, we should be learning from it. What do you think of the current discussion in America about sugar-coating history books and book-banning? Mark: Wow. DW? You are a man after my own heart. We are better than this. We do not need to be an “us” vs. “them” society. As Rodney King said all those years ago: “Can't we all get along?” Continued success with your career and lots of luck with “Because I'm Black.”Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-lean-to-the-left-podcast--4719048/support.

DW Duke is a California attorney and an author of six published books with three more books currently in production. His work has focused on human rights and empathy as a tool to overcome confrontation and conflict in the world.DW currently is creating a series of biographical novels and screenplays about social justice issues. One of his books, Racism Awareness, scheduled to be released in March of 2023, addresses root causes of racism and presents effective ways to identify and eradicate it.Another, ”Not Without a Fight,” is a biographical novel based on the true story of a Jewish boy who becomes a Resistance Fighter in World War II in Poland. The book's message is we shouldn't be erasing history, we should be learning from it. That's timely.It's a pleasure for me and Mark Bello, co-host of the Justice Counts podcast, to welcome you, DW, to our podcast.Mark– Welcome to the podcast. “Not Without A Fight” is your first book based upon a true story set during the Holocaust era. As most of our listeners know, I'm a Jewish Boy and I've also written a Holocaust novella, based on a true story. But, talk to us about your book, why you wrote it, and what message you would like readers to walk away with.Bob – Your next book, The Duke Legacy, also is based on a true story, takes place during the civil war era, and tells the story of a young man growing up in the south, and is deeply troubled by slavery. It isn't lost on me that the kid's last name is Duke—Is this book about your own family and why did you write it?Bob – Our country is struggling with the problems of discrimination and racism. Is that why you wrote “Racism Awareness?” Talk to us about that.Mark: There is a rise in anti-Semitic activities and attitudes in America today. Jew hatred is on the rise. Do you see many parallels between what's going on in America today and the rise of Nazism in Germany in the 1930s?Bob – You have said that empathy is a tool in overcoming stereotypes and discrimination. I would agree with that, but it sounds rather simplistic. Can you elaborate for us? What can the average citizen do to improve our interreligious or interracial discourse?Mark – I want to go back to “Not Without a Fight” for a moment. The boy who is the focus of the book survives the war. Did he continue his activism? What was his life like after the war?Bob – Aside from our racial and religious differences, we have a serious political divide in America today. What can be we do to resolve, or at least ease, political polarization in the U.S.?Mark – Bob tells me that there may be a movie in the works based on “Not Without a Fight.” That's exciting. What is the status of this project and when might we be able to see the movie in theatres or on television?Bob -- You have another biographical novel currently in production called “Because I'm Black.” What is that book about?Mark: Your books are based on rather terrible periods in history. In the first two books, your two protagonists, Thomas Biebers and Washington Duke, hate what's going on in their respective countries during their lifetimes. What would they think of modern day Germany and America? Would they be pleased or disappointed with our progress?Bob – Your work on discrimination and religious hatred is note-worthy and your books take a fascinating look at troubling times. Where can people find these important books?Mark: In the introduction, Bob mentioned that “Not Without a Fight” core message is that we shouldn't be erasing history, we should be learning from it. What do you think of the current discussion in America about sugar-coating history books and book-banning? Mark: Wow. DW? You are a man after my own heart. We are better than this. We do not need to be an “us” vs. “them” society. As Rodney King said all those years ago: “Can't we all get along?” Continued success with your career and lots of luck with “Because I'm Black.”This show is part of the Spreaker Prime Network, if you are interested in advertising on this podcast, contact us at https://www.spreaker.com/show/4719048/advertisement

Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: The ones that walk away, published by Karthik Tadepalli on January 19, 2023 on The Effective Altruism Forum. Alice: I've grown disillusioned with the EA community. I still want to dedicate my life to doing as much good as I can, but I am no longer certain that EA is the best way to do that. Bob: I see where you're coming from, but where specifically is that disillusionment leading you? Alice: I am still confident that major EA causes are important areas to work on. I think EA organizations do good work in those areas, so I would be quite happy to work at some of them. On the other hand, I'm much less willing to defer to EA institutions than before, and I'm unlikely to attend EA events or personally associate with EAs. So I imagine mostly disengaging from EA, albeit with some professional interest in EA organizations. Bob: You're disentangling different aspects of EA as a community. We are linked first and foremost by our moral commitments, to having a larger moral circle and trying to do the most good for that moral circle. You still hold those commitments. On top of that, we're also linked by the intellectual commitment to think rigorously and impartially about ways to do the most good. It sounds like you still believe in that, and the change is that you want to do more of that thinking for yourself and less of it through the EA collective consciousness. Is that right? Alice: Pretty much. Bob: But if you still hold the moral and intellectual commitments that define effective altruism, why do you want to disengage from EA? Alice: For me, the social dimension creates a dangerous tribalism. I get upset when people criticize EA on Twitter and in my life, and I feel the need to defend it. My in-group bias is being activated to defend people and arguments that I would not otherwise defend. Bob: Isn't being cognizant of tribalism enough to help you avoid it? Alice: That's unlikely, at least for me. I'm not a brain in a vat; my emotions are important to me. They don't dictate every action I take, but they have some sway. Furthermore, everyone thinks they are above tribalism, so we should be skeptical about our ability to succeed where everyone else fails. Bob: Point taken, but this argument proves too much. This is not just an argument against identifying with EA - it's an argument against identifying with any collective, since every collective makes you feel some tribalism. Alice: And that's exactly what I'm defending. I think it makes sense to work with collectives to accomplish shared goals - as I said, I would still work at EA organizations - but I am much less excited about identifying with them. That shared identity is not necessary for us to do good work together, and it creates a lot of scope for abuse. Bob: That feels uncomfortably transactional. Can you really work with someone towards a shared goal that is meaningful to you without feeling some bond with them? Don't you feel kinship with people who care about animal suffering, for example? Alice: Well... I see what you mean, so I'll step back from the strong claim. But the EA community is far more tightly knit than that basic moral kinship. We have group houses, co-working spaces, student groups, conferences with afterparties, a CEA community health team, the Forum, Dank EA Memes, EA Twitter... this is not your average community, and the typical EA could probably step back quite a lot while retaining that kinship and the sense of working together to make the world better. Bob: It's true that this is a highly-engaged community, but most of those aren't just for fun; they have some role in our ability to do good. To pick on two examples you listed, I've met people at conferences who I learnt a lot from, and the Forum is one of the best websites on the internet if you filter it aggressively. I wouldn't take this rea...

Robert Greenberg – Music, Tower of Power, Life - From the very beginning of the Break It Down Show, we've loved Robert Greenberg. Over the course of 1200+ episodes we've explored everything with Dr. Bob. When Pete A Turner's dad Bob died, they sorted out life and music. When Dr Bob's dad died, the fellas got together. Jon Leon Guerrero and Pete connected with Dissect podcasts Cole Kuchna they discovered that Cole was also a fan of Dr Bob--You know what happened next. They blew Cole's mind by sitting the two of them down for a great episode of BIDS. Your life will absolutely be enriched by heading to and subscribing to his patreon page: With the passing of Pete's brother Eric J Turner, it's time to once again, get together and examine life, music, history and the things that matter most.  Get ready for a world class episode. Robert, Jon and Pete get into the best that is what life is about. Please support the Break It Down Show by doing a monthly subscription to the show  All of the money you invest goes directly to supporting the show!   For the  of this episode head to  Haiku Robert's our staple We match like burgers and coke So, enjoy the ep!   ​Similar episodes: Joe Posnanski  Taylor Greiger  Brian Curtice  Join us in supporting Save the Brave as we battle PTSD.  Executive Producer/Host: Pete A Turner  Producer: Damjan Gjorgjiev  Writer: Dragan Petrovski  The Break It Down Show is your favorite best, new podcast, featuring 5 episodes a week with great interviews highlighting world-class guests from a wide array of shows.

In this episode, we discuss strategic steps for Equipment Leasing and Finance companies as they grow and evolve. The leadership of some of these businesses may decide to remain a certain size and complexity and be “ lifestyle businesses”, providing healthy cash flow to the owner(s) while they continue to run the business. However, other options exist, and exiting the business for a favorable multiple to a bank or other buyer can be an excellent strategy, the dream plan for many entrepreneurs.  In this interview, we interview Bob Rinaldi and discuss the potential to grow and leverage a business to realize a win-win exit strategy.  This episode is a great follow-up to our previous show, Start Early & Exit Right, as we dive deep into many of the concepts of M&A rationale. What's unique about this episode is that it is geared toward a specific target audience, our friends in the Equipment Leasing and Finance (ELF) industry. In this episode we cover: How partners such as Rinaldi Advisory Services (RAS) and Colonnade work with Equipment Leasing & Finance (ELF) companies to prepare for a successful sale (1:00) What are the biggest challenges for the independents as they look to be “bank ready” for an acquisition? (4:00)  What are some of the biggest challenges for banks pursuing an acquisition of an equipment leasing company? (9:30) What determines the level of a premium in the sale price that an ELF company can expect? (20:00) What has M&A activity looked like in recent years and what are the prospects? (23:00) What about Private Equity buyers in this space? (26:30) How partners such as Rinaldi Advisory Services (RAS) and Colonnade work with Equipment Leasing & Finance (ELF) companies to prepare for a successful sale (1:00) Bob: My practice has evolved around three target audiences in the equipment leasing space. About 60% of my clients are independent leasing (ELF) companies that I work with through the Confidential CEO Resource℠ model. This is multi-year exit strategy planning. Whether the company exits or not is not important. The idea is to get them from point A to point B so they're prepared if that time comes. The second part of my practice is working with banks, predominantly community banks who are looking to get into the ELF space. Third, I work with a handful of service providers in the industry, as well. Rinaldi Advisory Services (RAS) offers the Confidential CEO Resource℠ (CCR) as a robust, full-scope advisory service that provides clients with a broad base of support for long-term strategic management. RAS works with CEOs and Principals to provide meaningful analysis and actionable insights. The aim is to help ELF senior management arrive at strategic and tactical decisions geared toward managing growth as well as operational and financial efficiencies. Colonnade has deep experience in the ELF industry. Colonnade is a leading investment banking firm that has completed over $9 billion in M&A transactions for clients in the business and financial services industries. Colonnade has advised many companies in the EFL sector on strategic transactions. Please see our Quarterly Updates on the ELF industry here. What are the biggest challenges for the independents as they look to be “bank ready” for an acquisition? (4:00) Bob: The biggest challenge is predominantly that these founders/owners are very much entrepreneurs. They started the business. They're very much involved in the everyday transactional nature of their business. They don't have the time to gain the perspective to look at their company objectively and determine what needs to happen to be a better company from a non-transactional standpoint or to be a better company for the purpose of acquisition. Jeff:  Let's drill down a little bit on some of the biggest challenges for the independents. There's size and scale, where are you today and where are you going? Banks are the natural resting home for specialty finance companies, and ELF companies are such a great asset class for banks in particular. Obviously, they're a number of large independents, but from the bank's perspective, what are the other things you see where companies need to focus? Is it finance and accounting? Is it operations? Is it servicing? Bob: Yes. Yes. And yes. It's really all those things. But even before you get to that, let's look at the business and find components within the business that definitely will never, ever fit in a bank. I'm able to identify those things. You then have to decide what to do with those things. Do I jettison those things completely? Do I sell those off? Do I break it outside of the company and put it in a separate entity so that what is left is sellable and simple to understand? Compare that to a buyer looking at the company and thinking, “I like this, I like this. I hate that. Therefore, I'm not doing it [the acquisition].” For example, say that there is a heavy services component of the (ELF) business; services component being something that has morphed, be it operational leases or servicing equipment that is leased. A bank can't be in that business. If that is an absolute key critical component to your leasing business, then a bank buyer is probably never going to be the buyer, which is going to leave you looking at non-financial institutional-type buyers, and they're fairly limited, so that's a problem. That is when you look at it and go: “If that's what we're always going to do, then this maybe is just going to be a lifestyle business. Let's just find ways to improve the income generation, the profitability, and keep it as a lifestyle business.” What are some of the biggest challenges for banks pursuing an acquisition of an equipment leasing company? (9:30) 1) The banks must use experienced advisors who understand the appropriate valuation models. Bob: If the bank has not been in the business before and their only experience with acquisitions has predominantly been buying other smaller banks, the first challenge is the valuation models. Banks are used to paying a multiple of book value. Leasing companies are not valued that way; their valuation is based on a multiple of earnings or pretax adjusted net income. In a typical leasing company, most of the leases are on a fixed term, fully amortizing type of a structure; therefore they just generate income. But the assets don't stay on the balance sheet that long, they continually roll-off at a rapid rate, so you've got to keep putting on more. It's really not an asset play as much as it is a net income play. Jeff: When we talk to banks as acquirers of these businesses, from either the buy-side or the sell-side, you're absolutely right. It's all about the income-generating opportunity. Yes, there are assets associated with it, but much more importantly, it's “What's the potential earning stream for this business within the bank?” (See: Discover the Rationale for a Synergistic Business Merger). Bob: That really comes down to the financial institution's advisor, a buy-side advisor. If they've not had much experience in the equipment leasing space, especially current experience like Colonnade has, they're already at a very big disadvantage because now you've got two entities that are blind and stating the same thing and focused on book value, so they're getting bad advice along with their own preconceived ideas. That's like a double whammy right out the gate. It's common when you find that a bank or their board, for whatever reason, have just got very comfortable with a buy-side advisor, who has never had that much experience at it but they've just gotten very comfortable with them and they wouldn't even conceive of going outside. A lot of this gets really back down to, “Is the bank nimble? Is the bank flexible? Does the bank have a CEO that has cut a bigger vision?” The same thing with the board, the death of any kind of an institution is just getting so stuck in your way that you just can't get out of it. 2) The CEO of the bank must have a visionary leadership style that allows the acquired company to thrive. Bob: It all still goes back to the CEO of the bank and how progressive they are, how aggressive they are. And aggressive does not mean they're careless. Jeff: The folks that we generally work with on the banking side have made that decision. They said, “Okay, we're going to get into specialty finance. We want to do it in X, Y or Z asset class, and we have the headset to bid accordingly, and that these businesses are valued differently than bank deals. The multiples are different, the metrics are different. We're committed, we've got board approval, we've got senior leadership approval and we're going to go ahead with it.” Bob: You and I know one of the smartest, most aggressive community bankers: Chuck Sulerzyski ​of Peoples Bank of Marietta, Ohio. Peoples Bank is located in the Southeast corner of Ohio, squarely in Appalachia country. How does a bank that size, originally ~$1 billion in assets when he took it over and roughly $7 billion today, make such successful leasing company acquisitions? One located in Vermont and one located in Minnesota? If you take a look at the numbers, the ROA and ROE of the bank have improved dramatically. Their yields and spreads have increased dramatically. Their asset growth has increased significantly in the commercial real estate (CRE) and in the commercial and industrial (C&I) sectors. His shareholders are being rewarded handsomely and will continue to be. Jeff: Chuck sets a great example. He has been aggressive in good ways. Peoples Bank also acquired an insurance premium finance company, and they're diversifying.  Chuck has the right headset in that he looks to acquire businesses to expand and diversify their geographical footprint. That's a real success story, in my view.  Bob: If you're going to acquire a leasing company that's growing, that's used to growing assets, the last thing you want to do is turn them into a bank. That's the whole premise for why you're going to buy a leasing company – is to expand the scope of the bank, not to contract it. It requires an introspective look of the CEO and his team: can they make an acquisition and not micromanage it and end up turning it into a bank? 3) Banks must be able to create objectives around diversification of geography and asset classes.  Bob: Equipment leasing is not a geographic-specific industry unlike, let's call it, commercial real estate. Banks are very familiar with commercial real estate. Real estate is always local. Commercial real estate is local, you've got to know the geography that you're in very well so that you understand the commercial real estate in that market. Banks must understand what they're trying to achieve in three to five years in terms of what percentage of their (Commercial and Insurance) C&I assets they want in various sectors.  How much do they want to get to in ELF? What do they want it to look like in three years, four years? Depending upon how big that number is, that determines the modality of the type of equipment leasing business you could get into. There are multiple facets to the equipment leasing industry: 1) small ticket, (transactions less than $250,000), middle-market/mid ticket (up to $5 million per transaction size), and large ticket (above $5 million per transaction). Jeff. Take Wintrust. They're not really “a bank”. More than 40% of their loan portfolio is insurance premium finance. They've got a big equipment finance business on top of that. There's probably 50% to 60% of loans that are non-traditional banking assets. As a result, the ROA on that bank is considerably higher than its peers; and as a result, the stock trades higher.  And Peoples, as we've discussed, has the right headset that they need to acquire or look to acquire national platforms outside of Marietta, Ohio. Obviously, they've done some bank acquisitions too in footprint, but expanding to get national business is part of the CEO's strategy.  What determines the level of a premium in the sale price that an ELF company can expect? (20:00) Bob: It falls under the quality of earnings, platform, and quality of human resources. Quality of earnings: I think about the repeatability of the earnings, as opposed to having a trend line of earnings that is a sawtooth (up and down, up and down). Quality of earnings should be fluid and show continued ramped-up growth over a period of time. Platform: The ability to scale. What's their technological capability? What's the platform built off of, is it homegrown? Is it well protected? Is it SOC compliant? If you had more capital, can you scale it? Quality of human resources: What does the management team look like? What's the average age of the team? What are their qualifications? What does the core management team look like behind them? If you cover all three of those pretty darn well, you're going to get the higher end of the premium scale for sure. What has M&A activity looked like in recent years and what are the prospects? (23:00) Bob: Activity's been strong for the past few years. Part of the activity was exacerbated when everybody thought that in 2021 there was going to be a new tax act and capital gains were going to go up.  The biggest reason over the past four to five years is because you've got an aging-out (in the midst of the Great Resignation) of the Principals of these companies. It's just a normal progression, and it happens every five years or so. You get a number of individuals who have had their own leasing companies who started them 20 odd years ago. If they started 20 years ago, here we are 20 years later, they're in their mid-60s to late 60s. If they don't get out now, when are they going to exit? Because typically there's going to be an earn out. If you wait till the age of 70 to get out, you may be working on an earn out between the ages of 70 and 73. On top of that, there's the aspect of an ELF company having a capital constraint. At some point, their capital is not going to hold them to keep borrowing on their line of credit because the debt-equity ratios will get too high and they'll have a hard time borrowing. It's really at about that time when they have to start thinking about what's next. Do we bring in another equity partner? Do we bring in some sub-debt? All that does is kick the can down the road. And I always tell them at that point: “You're already selling part of the company. Just sell the whole thing.” Listen to this podcast episode/read through the shownotes to see the Four Reasons Company Owners Consider a Transaction (15:25) What about Private Equity buyers in this space? (26:30) Jeff: We regularly get calls from folks looking to find platforms to acquire and build upon. There are some opportunities there: To remain independent, nimble, and flexible outside of the bank model, and take in additional capital to grow and potentially enhance the financing capabilities through securitizations and others. Bob: The equipment leasing industry is a fairly mature industry. It's fairly sophisticated. For an independent leasing company to bring in private equity, I see that as only a solution if you don't believe you're able to sell the whole company right now. The PE firm is investing to get double-digit returns, so that means they're going to come in and put you (as the owner/operator) on a huge ramped-up treadmill. You are going to have to keep up or they're going to lose interest. And you've sold part of the company. Now, granted, you've got a smaller piece but now have a bigger pie.  Jeff: That makes sense. There are some examples of successful private-equity-backed equipment finance companies, but as we have found – the universe of financially oriented sponsors that really want to put a lot of capital into the business and are willing to wait a long time to get their return – is quite limited. Most folks attack it from the financing standpoint. It can be a good option if you have an aging founder that wants an opportunity to take some chips off the table and let the next generation continue to run it. But you're right, it is a different exercise being put on that treadmill. Bob: It's a much different exercise. On the other hand, where it does work really well, is when a PE firm is backing a very experienced individual or a team who is going to start up a new entity. They could start this new entity and scale quickly with the help of private equity. They'd have a chance to really leverage that with some serious growth. Then it makes complete sense.

Sometimes "reality" TV takes it one step too far.  Sometimes two steps.  Sometimes a flying leap. WARNING:  IMPLIED VIOLENCE AND TORTURE Written and Produced by Julie Hoverson Cast List Announcer  - Frankenvox Alison - Beverly Poole Bart - Michael Faigenblum Carl - Mike Campbell Debbie - E. Vickery Ms. Sheldon - Sharon Delong Tanya - Tanja Milojevic Mom - Shayla Conrad-Simms Dad - Reynaud LeBoeuf Son - Eli Nilsson Fred - Joel Harvey Bob - Glen Hallstrom Helen - Helen Edwards June - Shelbi McIntyre Kathy - Kim Poole Additional Voices - Russell Gold; Julie Hoverson Music by Brian Bochicchio (Seraphic Panoply) Show theme:  Kevin MacLeod (Incompetech.com) Editing and Sound:   Julie Hoverson Cover Design:  Brett Coulstock   "What kind of a place is it? Why it's right here, right now, can't you tell?" ************************************************************************ IDIOT BOX Cast: [Opening credits - Olivia] TV Announcer Alison, chipper Bart, sullen Carl, upbeat, hearty Debbie, nervous, angry underneath Ms. Sheldon, executive producer Tanya, in the sound booth Family - mom, dad, teenage son Bar - Fred, Bob, Helen Dorm - June, Kathy OLIVIA     Did you have any trouble finding it?  What do you mean, what kind of a place is it?  Why, it's right here, right now, can't you tell?  MUSIC SOUND     THEME MUSIC ANNOUNCER    last week, in the record-breaking debut of The Box, we were introduced to our four contestants: ALISON    [chipper] I'm Alison, from Santa Monica.  Hi, mom! CARL    [hearty] Carl, from Atlanta - home of the Cartoon Channel!!  DEBBIE    [nervous] Debbie, from Salem.  Uh, Oregon.  [quickly] Salem Oregon. BART    [sullen] Bart, Minneapolis [disgusted sigh]. ANNOUNCER    The rules are on the screen now for all you viewers out there, to cover the formalities.  They are also available on our website at [spelled out superfast] w-w-w-dot-s-k-i-n-n-e-r-i-d-i-o-t-b-o-x-dot-com.  AMB    FAMILY LIVING ROOM SOUND    CHIPS EATEN FROM BAG ANNOUNCER    [TV] And after this brief message, we'll show you the results of last week's voting. SOUND    CLICK OF REMOTE SOUND    POPCORN POPPING IN MICROWAVE MOM    [off] You better not have turned that off, hun! SOUND    MICROWAVE DINGS DAD    Just muted.  Sick of all these ads for freaking erectile dysfunction.  If anything's going to give a guy man-trouble, it's having to watch all those damn ads. SOUND    POURING POPCORN INTO BOWL SON    Ew, dad.  T-M-I. MOM    [coming in, munching popcorn] The one I hate is that smiling guy.  His wife just looks so scared all the time.  Almost as creepy as the King. SON    Am I adopted?  Please say yes. DAD    Ooops, back on! ANNOUNCER    [TV]  Did everyone vote? MOM    I certainly did! SON    Mom?  [disgusted noise] Why? ANNOUNCER    [TV] The voting is closed, the tabulations have been made, and the scores are coming up on the screen now. MOM    [over the announcer] Why not?  I want that nice young girl - the blonde - to win.  She's very wholesome. ANNOUNCER    [TV] And it looks like today Alison has been selected!  MOM    [satisfied] There! ANNOUNCER    We have Alison in the studio now - let's see how she takes it. SOUND     LIGHT MUSIC, ON THE TV SEGUES INTO REALITY ANNOUNCER    Hello Alison!  Say hi to everyone!  ALISON    Hi!  Hi mom!  Dad! ANNOUNCER    How's the first week been treating you? ALISON    This place is great! ANNOUNCER    Throughout the show, we'll be showing some of the fun you four have been having.  Now, why don't you tell me what you think of your new friends? ALISON    Oh, wow - everyone's really great.  ANNOUNCER    Don't you find Bart a bit... isolated? ALISON    He's just self-contained.  I'm sure he's a good guy, he just doesn't open up real easily. ANNOUNCER    And Debbie? ALISON    She's shy - a lot like my sister.  Hi Vickie!! ANNOUNCER    [chuckles] That's great. ALISON    And Carl - well, he's a blast.  He's always thinking up great stuff to do. ANNOUNCER    Yesterday you had sole access to the Dairy Dan Amusement park. ALISON    Oh, man - that was awesome!  They closed the gates and we got to ride all the rides all day long - no lines, no crowds!  Woo! ANNOUNCER    You've been chosen. ALISON    Woo!  [stumbles] I - What?  What? SOUND    CONTROL BOOTH ANNOUNCER    [TV]  Please step into the box. ALISON    [TV - gasp, then steels herself]  Right.  [somewhat bitter] Thanks America. SHELDON That's the shot - tight in on 2, now 3 - yes! Keep her face centered until she shuts the door. TANYA    Got it. SHELDON Okay, keep the volume low on that. It's early yet - don't want to wear out the viewers... SOUND    [TV] ELECTRIC SHOCK NOISE, SOMEWHAT BRIEF ALISON    [TV - short scream] ANNOUNCER    [TV] We'll be right back after the break to find out what today's challenge will be. AMB    DORM ROOM JUNE    Omigod!  Omigod!  Did you see that? KATHY    [distracted] Hmm?  No but I sure heard it - did they just do what I think they did? JUNE    They just shocked the crap out of the blonde chick! KATHY    Was there actually crap? JUNE    [duh] She was in the box.  Shh.  It's coming back on. SOUND    TV TURNS UP ANNOUNCER    [TV] We'll be right back with more of The Box after these messages. SOUND    SOUND DOWN AGAIN JUNE    I hate when they do that. KATHY    Shock someone? JUNE    No, have the logo come up and make you think the show is back on. KATHY    Yeah, that's much worse. JUNE    You know what I mean!  It was totally mean that they shocked her - she's the one who got the most votes! KATHY    Isn't that what everyone was voting for? JUNE    No!  At least, I don't think so - I mean, I thought it was voting for who would win something cool.  I ...voted for her. KATHY    You actually voted? JUNE    On the website, yeah. KATHY    Of course there's a website.  Maybe you should read the fine print. JUNE    Oh, oh!  It's back on!  Jeez, look at her poor hair! SOUND    TV UP ANNOUNCER    [TV] Back to the interview room, to hear from Alison. ANNOUNCER    [real] Before we go on, I need to point out, this is the only time you can choose to leave the show.  Are you prepared to stay? ALISON    [gulps, then quiet]  Yes.  [clears her throat, louder]  Yes.  [very shaky] That wasn't so bad. ANNOUNCER    Excellent.  Now I believe you recently graduated from college, Alison.  What did you get your degree in? AMB    BAR ALISON    [TV]  I'm a liberal arts major, with a minor in art history. FRED    So she's unemployed, eh? ANNOUNCER    [TV]  And you are engaged to be married? BOB    Too bad.  All the cute ones are taken.  Even with that weird hairdo. SOUND    TV SWITCHED TO SPORTS FRED    Hey, we were watching that! HELEN    Why?  It's awful, letting them mess with people on TV like that! FRED    [scornful] It's not real.  BOB    Course it is - it even has a website! HELEN    Puh-leez.  Lots of things have websites that aren't real. BOB    Name one. HELEN    Pamela Anderson's boobs. FRED    She got you there, pal. BOB    C'mon - just switch it back long enough to see what today's challenge is?  Please? HELEN    Ya big softie, you. SOUND    TV CHANGES BACK ANNOUNCER    [TV] Carl, you got the second most votes this week - Do you have anything to say to the viewers at home?  Obviously you're doing something right, to get so many votes. CARL    [TV]  I think it's just my sunny personality, Bob.  People like winners, and I am a winner. AMB    LIVING ROOM SON    Weiner. MOM    Language! SON    [dismissive noise] Doesn't that dipstick know that most votes gets zapped? DAD    Maybe he doesn't - they might not tell THEM everything, either.  Makes sense.  Why else would they be so excited? SON    But that sucks!  That sucks big time!  Here they are, trying to be all cool and get people to vote for them, and they're like masterminding their own torture or something. DAD    It's just a game,  No one really gets hurt. MOM    Well, I was kind of upset that Alicia-- SON    Alison. MOM    Yes, that she got shocked.  I didn't know that voting for her would do that.  I kind of feel bad now. SON    Well, don't vote for her next time. MOM    I certainly won't! ANNOUNCER    [on TV] Well, we've spoken to two of our four contestants, and the voting is open for the halftime winner.  Go on line now or text to-- SOUND    TV MUTES, AMB/DORM SOUND    COMPUTER KEYS KATHY    What are you doing? JUNE    Voting. KATHY    Vicious much? JUNE    No! I - I just don't want her to have to get shocked again.  Damn!  It only lets me choose one of those two - not the other guy. KATHY    So you want to see him get shocked? JUNE    Well, no, but I like him the least. KATHY    Just cause you don't think he's cute. SOUND    ONE LAST KEY JUNE    Um, there. KATHY    So who'd you vote for? JUNE    The guy - the nice one - of course.  I like him, too, but I don't want her to get shocked again. SOUND    TV UP AGAIN ANNOUNCER    [TV] Regular text messaging fees apply.  And now‑‑ SOUND    OMINOUS MUSIC ROLLS IN ANNOUNCER    [TV, ominous] The moment in the spotlight.  Will it be Alison or Carl?  The voting closes in three minutes, so hurry up and make your vote count - if the lines are overloaded, make sure and try back - but be quick.   [normal] While we wait, let's watch some clips from the preliminary interviews with the other two contestants. MUSIC ANNOUNCER    [TV] And what are you studying? DEBBIE    [TV] I'm - um - a poli sci major. FRED    So she's gonna end up unemployed too. BOB    Whatever happened to good old trade schools? FRED    They're still around - just the trades aren't.  You seen any cobblers in the U.S. of A recently?  Nope.  It's all farmed out to Pakistan and Koala Lumper. HELEN    Lumpur. FRED    Sez you. HELEN    I can turn it off, you know. BOB    Yeah - see now Helen here's got a job that can't be farmed out - long as there's guys like us, there's always gonna be bars, eh? FRED    Until they invent a mixology robot. BOB    Hey, the lights are flashing on the screen, must be something important. SOUND    TV TURNED UP. SOUND    OMINOUS MUSIC INTENSIFIES ANNOUNCER    [TV; evil "suspense" pacing]  And the one who got the most halftime votes.  Will it be Alison, our stoic liberal arts major? JUNE    Yes, yes - come on come on!!! ANNOUNCER    [TV] Or Carl, who tutors children with learning disabilities. MOM    Oh, that's awful! SON    Awful? That he works with retarded kids? MOM    [almost a whisper] That I voted for him. ANNOUNCER    [TV] And the one who got the most votes in the 8-minute half-time poll was-- SOUND    HEAVY DRUMBEAT ANNOUNCER    [TV] Was-- SOUND    HEAVY DRUMBEAT KATHY    Look at how much she's sweating! JUNE    You'd sweat too if you just got shocked! ANNOUNCER    [TV] is -Carl! JUNE    Whew! KATHY    Shh.  Let's see what happens. ANNOUNCER    [TV] This means that at the end of tonight's show, Carl will be up against the second half winner in a showdown to see who gets a million dollars sent to the charity of their choice. HELEN    Waitaminute - she gets shocked and he gets a chance to win big bucks?  That's so not fair! FRED    That's the way it is.  Women always getting the short stick. HELEN    Especially when they're dating you, eh? BOB    [laughs, tried to stop] FRED    Yeah, yeah - you can joke now, but I'll give you 70-30 odds that the other winner is that other guy. BOB    The grouch? FRED    Yup.  Is it a bet? BOB    Fifty bucks? FRED    Whoah, whoah!  Let's not get carried away here, now. MUSIC - OPENING THEME, PLAYS FOR A MOMENT ANNOUNCER    Entering week five of The Box, you can see the ratings posted for our four contenders.  [hushed] Last week, it looked as though Debbie had finally broken-- DEBBIE    [TV] I hate it!  I hate you all! You can all just go and-- SOUND    LONG SERIES OF BLEEPED WORDS SOUND    ZAPPING AND SCREAMING UNDER NEXT LINE ANNOUNCER    But after her trip to the box, she refused to cry off. DEBBIE    [TV] [breathing heavily and gulping] No [gasp] way! [gasp]  You don't [gasp] get rid of me [long shaky breath] that easily. [sob] ANNOUNCER    And now, a new week - and what was this week's challenge? STUDIO AUDIENCE Fasting! ANNOUNCER    Yes, fasting.  Whoever could go the longest without eating even a single bite of food got a free pass this week‑‑ ANNOUNCER    [TV] --and we'll find out who managed that in just a moment - after a few words from our sponsors. SOUND    CLICK, SOUND OFF JUNE    [urging] C'mon Debbie! KATHY    Debbie?  Hah.  She's got no body fat to start with.  Bart has a much better chance of surviving-- JUNE    Don't say that!  You just like him cause you know I don't! KATHY    I root for the underdog.  It's a principal. And no one likes that poor bastard. JUNE    If no one likes him, how come Debbie's the one always getting shocked, huh?  [almost a sob] Huh? ANNOUNCER    [TV]  Let's bring our four contestants out on stage to hear who's going to be free and clear for another week.  Alison-- SOUND    MUSIC UP, DOOR OPENS, SHAKY FOOTSTEPS ANNOUNCER    [real] Alison, how are you feeling? ALISON    [trying to be perky] Not too bad.  I made it almost three whole days on nothing but water.  ANNOUNCER    But then you lost it? ALISON    [heavy sigh] Yeah, I had to give in and get something.  [resigned] I figured fine - just put me in the box.  At least that eventually ends.  ANNOUNCER    Thank you, Alison.  Now go over to the isolation booth while we talk with each of your friends. ALISON    [venomous] Friends?  Hah! ANNOUNCER    [TV, confidential] She needs to learn to be careful about trading today's pain for tomorrow's - what she doesn't know is we've [ramping up] turned the voltage up another notch! AUDIENCE    [TV, CHEERS] HELEN    This just keeps getting worse.  It has to be against the law. BOB    Oh, come on.  They signed waivers, didn't they?  Plus, it's all fake - like wrestling.  Seriously.  Even if they did do this stuff, they have to have doctors and all on staff - make sure no one really gets hurt. SOUND    UNWRAPPING AND OPENING A FORTUNE COOKIE FRED    Hey, listen to this - "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." BOB    Figures the Chinese would think of that first. FRED    Nah.  The Chinese didn't make that up. HELEN    Then who did say it? FRED    [immediate] Thomas Jefferson. BOB    I don't think so. FRED    Yeah?  And who do you think it was? BOB    Some Greek philosopher or other.  [idea] Julius Caesar! HELEN    You guys make your bet, I'll call Jonesy on the next commercial and he can google it. SOUND    TV TURNS UP ANNOUNCER    [TV]  So Bart, you made it the longest without eating - you have any special tips for the viewers out there on how you did it? BART    [real] Huh? ANNOUNCER    Any tips?  We'll give you a minute - these moments of uncertainty are just further proof that our show is live and unedited.  While Bart ponders this, I'll recap - Alison gave into her craven need for food first, followed by Carl and Debbie - in a virtual photo finish, where Debbie held out for one millisecond longer than Carl.  Good going Debbie! BART    I hate you. ANNOUNCER    Hmm?  What's that? BART    I hate you and all you stand for.  ANNOUNCER    Do I hear an opt-out coming?  For those of you just tuning in, during this episode and this episode alone, any of our four contestants can opt out at any time - not just immediately following a trip into the Box.  So Bart, are you-- SOUND    A BEEP TRIES TO CUT HIM OFF ON THE FIRST WORD BART    Fuck you!  You can't get rid of me that easily.  BART    [TV] I don't care how many times you drug me and try to get me to bow down to the corporate machine!  You and all you people at home - you are sadistic bastards, but I'm here for the long haul - And when I finish, whether I win or not, I will be traveling around the country demanding the pound of flesh each and every one of you bastards owe me!!! KATHY    For god's sake, turn it off. JUNE    No, he's making a valid point.  We shouldn't be party to this. KATHY    The very act of watching it validates it. JUNE    No.  I'm only doing this to bear witness. KATHY    The advertisers don't care.  They just want to you to watch. JUNE    Well, I won't vote any more. KATHY    Then you can't complain when your favorite gets zapped. JUNE    [upset] Oh hell! ANNOUNCER    [TV]  Well, that was very enlightening.  Before you out there start emailing and phoning - please refer to clause 42 slash 8 slash F, subsection I-I-I, paragraph y, where it sets out the game's rules covering mental illness or defect.  Thank you, and good night! SOUND    TV TURNED OFF HELEN    Anyone checked out the big pools? FRED    What do you mean? HELEN    There's huge bets all over the place - everyone guessing who's gonna last the longest. BOB    Well, no one's washed out yet. FRED    They're a tough bunch of kids, but I bet I could make it on that show.  Age does bring wisdom. BOB    To who? FRED    You're too young to remember this, but I was a P-O-W in nam [rhymes with "ham"].  I been through it all.  Torture, deprivation, brain washing. HELEN    They sure got yours squeaky clean. SOUND    DRINKS WHOLE BEER DOWN. BOB    Ahhh. MUSIC    ANNOUNCER    This week, week 9 of The Box, we might just lose a second contestant.  ANNOUNCER     [TV] Alison, you've spent three days in this jacuzzi - brought to us courtesy of Big Joe's cut-rate pools and spas.  Now, people might think this was fun, but of course, you can't fall asleep or you might drown!  ALISON    [TV, parched, delirious]  You suck, Bob. FRED    Friend of yours? BOB    You wish. ALISON     [TV]  Get me out. ANNOUNCER    [TV] You do know that whomever leaves their jacuzzi first goes directly into the box? ALISON     [TV] No!  I want out!  OUT!  I can't - you can't make me stay here! JUNE    They can't, can they? KATHY     How much you wanna bet she signed something that says they can? JUNE    That's illegal! KATHY    Being stupid and greedy?  Nah.  They'd run out of prisons.  Unless you subscribe to the idea that our whole world is a prison. JUNE    [very upset] Don't talk like that - look at that poor girl!  They're just dragging her across the stage! KATHY    Wow.  I wouldn't'a thought it would take three guys to handle her, after all the crap she's been through. ALISON    [TV - screaming weakly and struggling] ANNOUNCER    [TV] It is understood, under the rules, that the clemency episode has run out and, once again, the only time you can opt out is right after a session in the box-- SON    If she's all wet, wouldn't that make the shock worse? DAD    At least her hair doesn't end up all weird since they shaved her head after that challenge last week-- SON    Three weeks ago. DAD    Really?  Anyway, they probably compensate somehow. MOM    Are you sure? DAD    [unsure] Well... They can't really hurt her - that would be... ANNOUNCER    [TV]     Oh, and - I've just got a word from the producer!  We've got a three minute vote - so grab your phones!  ANNOUNCER    [real] Now this will cost one dollar per vote, so make yours count!  Dial the studio number and hit 1 if you want us to let Allison forfeit and leave now, push 2 if you think we should hold her to the rules.  And voting opens [beat, then TV] Now! SHELDON Start the positive counter. TANYA    On it.  Running. NARRATOR     [TV] The positive votes will tally right here on the corner of the screen, and if, after the vote closes, there are more positive than negative votes, Alison will  immediately leave the studio - damper but wiser... BOB    Man, I wish I was in Vegas. FRED    Nah - you know what's going to happen.  The odd's'll be crap. HELEN    Course.  They'll let her go. FRED    You gotta lotta faith in people, babe.  Nah.  I'll give you 10 to 1 she's gonna ride the lightning. BOB     [incredulous] "Ride the lightning?" FRED    You know - old sparky. The electric chair?  Man where have you been? BOB    Considering no one's been executed in an electric chair in this state for - um - help me out Helen-- HELEN    50 years. BOB    50 years. FRED    Really? HELEN    How the hell'm I supposed to know? BOB    Well, whatever - a long time.  HELEN    Actually, I think this state always hanged people. FRED    Hung. BOB    The countdown! 5 - 4 - JUNE    3-2- MOM    [almost breathless] One. ANNOUNCER    [TV]  All votes are in, and as you can see, we had a regular landslide of support for our dear friend Allison here.  we have 4 million six hundred seventy two thousand, three hundred and forty-two votes for clemency.  Good for you everyone!  We'll show the other side, right after this-- SOUND    TV OFF DAD    No way! MOM    You can't    ! SON    I won't watch any more of this.  This is brutal. MOM    [angry] Don't you dare!  How can we not ... find out? SON    No. MOM    Just until they announce it - we don't have to watch ...if she... SON    Gets it? SOUND    REMOTE THROWN ONTO TABLE SON    You do what you want.  I'll be in the garage. SOUND    [after a moment] TV CLICKS ON COMMERCIAL    [something] KATHY    I bet the commercials for this cost top dollar.  Like superbowl ads. JUNE    How can you just be so snarky - that girl could die! KATHY    Nah.  They can't do that.  It would be illegal. JUNE    Not normally, but remember when that guy had a stroke on "Danger Island" last year?  The family sued, but the waiver made it perfectly legit.  KATHY    And that wasn't even that exciting. ANNOUNCER    [on TV]  For those just tuning in, we have perky little Allison in the Box, awaiting your verdict.  [continues under] Does she take the next shock, or have you tipped toward clemency for this poor girl? SHELDON Give them the split picture. TANYA    Before and after? SHELDON Uh-huh. [grim] Show them what they did. ANNOUNCER    [on TV] The negative votes have been tallied.  SOUND    DRUM ROLL, OMINOUS MUSIC ANNOUNCER    [ON TV] And we had 4 million six hundred seventy two thousand, three hundred and forty-two votes to let her go.  BOB    I'm still saying they'll let her off.  FRED    Nope.  You already lost that twenty, pal. HELEN    Shh! ANNOUNCER    [TV] The negative count is seven million three hundred-- SOUND    TV OFF KATHY    Did you vote? JUNE    Yes.  [beat]  Twenty times. KATHY    [shrug] You can't beat the bastards. JUNE    But if everyone just voted a few more times... KATHY    Three million more times. JUNE    How can people be so horrible? SOUND    [NEXT DOOR TV] SCREAMING PEOPLE    [laughing] SOUND    POUNDING ON WALL JUNE    [yelling at them] How can you be so horrible?? KATHY    They're drunk.  Didn't you see the sign? JUNE    [half a sob] Sign? KATHY    The one that said "come to gary's room, get drunk and watch The Box"? JUNE    [down] No. KATHY    Look, turn it on.  You'll see she's not dead or anything, then you'll feel better. JUNE    But what if she's not?  I mean, what if she is?  I mean-- KATHY    [sigh] Then you'll know. SOUND    [beat, then] TV TURNS ON SOUND    [on TV] AMBULANCE SIRENS JUNE    [sob] MOM    [sob] Her poor parents! DAD    Don't worry so much - she's not dead. MOM    She was for 43 seconds. DAD    That doesn't even count these days - happens all the time on House. MOM    [very upset] But this is real! SOUND    [on tv] MUSIC UP ANNOUNCER    [tv]  And we'll be checking in with Allison as soon as she regains consciousness to confirm her wish to opt out.  For now, the game comes down to Bart and Carl.  ANNOUNCER    Don't forget - no matter what happens, the game's big final episode is in two weeks.  SOUND    CAMERA OFF SHELDON Nicely done. ANNOUNCER    It's really wearing me thin. SHELDON Almost over. And after today's vote, there's no way the station can afford to cancel us. ANNOUNCER    [sigh, then grudging] Two more shows.  SHELDON [with meaning] And then we announce the results. MUSIC - OPENING THEME, PLAYS FOR A MOMENT AMB     NOISY BAR BOB    [ordering] Another one. FRED    Packed tonight. SOUND    DRINK SET DOWN HELEN    It's the finale. FRED    [tired] Oh, yeah.  That. BOB    Bottom's up! HELEN    Slow down, or I'm gonna have to pour you into a cab. SOUND    CAR KEYS SLAPPED ONTO THE BAR, SCOOPED UP SOUND    GLASS SET DOWN HARD BOB    Ahhh. CROWD    ROAR OF EXCITEMENT HELEN    Hold on!  I'll get it. SOUND    TV SOUND UP MUSIC    FANFARE ANNOUNCER    It's the night we've all been waiting for.  The night the final results are announced.  And we will have an ultimate winner.  Let's recap what the winner will walk away with.  SOUND    VOLUME DOWN SOUND    DOOR OPENS KATHY    Oh, you're not watching that, are you?  [sneer] I thought you decided it wasn't worth it! JUNE    [shell shocked] I can't not watch!  I have to know! KATHY    Look, let's go to the library or something. JUNE    No!  I would die of suspense! KATHY    It's not-- SOUND    TV VOLUME COMES UP KATHY    [sigh] I'm not staying. SOUND    DOOR CLOSES ANNOUNCER    And the contest comes down to our two finalists, Bart and Carl.  They have endured amazing hardship to make it this far.  Do you have anything you want to say to the people at home, Bart? BART    You still suck and you always will.  Every single one of you!  Every person who just sits by and supports this shit! ANNOUNCER    [still jovial]  And yet, you have continued to play our sick little games - as you call them - despite being offered chance after chance to leave. BART    Hah!  I don't plan to fucking let you win, you scumbags! ANNOUNCER    Well said.  And you, Carl, do you have anything for the audience? CARL    [mumbles] ANNOUNCER    Speak up? CARL    [vague, reciting] We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams.  Sitting by lone sea-- lone sea....  the sea.  The sea.  See see oh playmate, come out and play with me.... [fades out] ANNOUNCER    There you have it, folks.  And now we go to our man in the street interviewer, Tanya.  Take it away! TANYA    Thank you.  I'm in a major metropolitan center here, asking people on the street what they think of the Box. ANNOUNCER    If they're outside right now, instead of glued to their sets, they must not think much of it. BOTH    [fake laugh] SOUND    TV OFF SOUND    EATING MOM    What?  Don't you dare! DAD    Hey, we were watching that! SON    Are you enjoying this? MOM    Enjoying? DAD    What do you mean? SON    All this shit they've put those people through!  You can barely tell them apart now, after they've been starved and had their heads shaved.  They look like concentration camp victims! MOM    But - but this is the last show! DAD    What does it matter if we watch or don't watch? SOUND    THROWING DOWN A REMOTE SON    Do what you want.  I'll just hope for a six-car pileup.  Maybe you'll trade up. SOUND    DOOR OPENS AND SHUT SOUND    REMOTE TAKEN, TV ON ANNOUNCER    And for tonight, the big surprise is-- SOUND    DRUM ROLL, OMINOUS MUSIC ANNOUNCER    Two boxes! SOUND    CANNED CHEERING ANNOUNCER    One for each of you.  While we get them all set, here's a word from our sponsor! AMB    BAR CROWD    Buzzing "two boxes?" BOB    [slurry] Whaddaya think they've got up their shleeves? FRED    They're gonna kill one of those boys. HELEN    [confidential] I heard that girl Allison is in a private clinic, barely alive. FRED    Where'd you--? HELEN    Internet.  BOB    [sarcastic]  Yeah.  Then it's probably true. SOMEONE    Turn it up! HELEN    Got it! SOUND    TV UP ANNOUNCER    And now.  The moment of truth!  All the votes have been tallied.  As you can see, we have Bart over here in the red box-- SOUND    CANNED APPLAUSE ANNOUNCER    [tv] --and Carl over there in the blue. SHELDON close up on Bart, camera 2. Yeah, baby, clench that jaw.  Now cut to that trickle of sweat on Carl's face.  Nice. TANYA    Back to the announcer? SHELDON One more second, and - yes! ANNOUNCER    [tv] And now, with the votes tallied, we will find out who you out there have selected as the big winner, and who has to take the big penalty.  ANNOUNCER    [real] But first, we caught each of our contestants here on secret camera last night.  Let's see what they were doing on the penultimate night. SOUND    QUICK JAB OF STATIC VOICE    [tv] ...need to get out now.  You don't understand what they have planned for tomorrow.  It's so much worse! AMB    BAR BOB    Who the hell izzat? BART    [TV] [scoff] Worse?  Worse how? HELEN    Don't know.  FRED    Look at that announcer fellow - he's surprised too.  HELEN    [half a chuckle]  Serves him right. ANNOUNCER    [tv] Sorry - we should have screened that clip before playing it.  Let's go over to Carl's shot. CARL    [tv] Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall--[cuts out suddenly] ANNOUNCER    [tv] And that's all the time we have for that.  And now the moment of truth.  Carl or Bart?  You held their fate in your hands. SOUND    COMMERCIAL COMES ON UNDER MOM    [coming in]  Where's Kyle?  Have you seen Kyle? DAD    [mesmerized]  He'll be back.  Just ... went out to a friend's house.  Probably. MOM    You should turn that off and find him! DAD    We can look in ten minutes just as easily as we can look now! MOM    This is our son! DAD    It's almost over! SOUND    OMINOUS MUSIC ON TV ANNOUNCER    [tv] And now.  The final countdown. MOM    Five minutes. SOUND    SHE SITS ANNOUNCER     [tv]  This has been quite a journey for everyone - and we would like to thank you all for your support and participation. BOB    Support?  I'd shoot that stupid bastard if I had a chance.  And a gun. HELEN    You're not the only one, but a lot of people paid a lot of money into that damn show. ANNOUNCER    [tv] --making us the highest rated network series ever-- FRED    yeah, and even WE count for ratings, since we happen to be watching it. BOB    [steaming into an alcoholic rage] Then let's not watch it! SOUND    SLAMS GLASS ON BAR, LIQUID SLOSHES FRED    Calm down, pal. BOB    No! Is this what our world has come to?  This crap?? SOUND    THROWS BEER GLASS AT TV, TV DIES, BUT OTHER SET PLAYS ON IN THE BACKGROUND CROWD    [Shocked silence] FRED    Great, one down, only seven hundred million TV sets to go. HELEN    I'll put it on your tab. CROWD     [chatter begins again] ANNOUNCER    [tv] --will definitely be returning for a second season, starting next fall-- SOUND    DOOR OPENS ANNOUNCER    [tv] --and we're looking at celebrity contestants.  TANYA    [tv]  That will be a whole new ballgame. KATHY    Sorry, didn't know it was still on. JUNE    [distraught] Stay.  Please. KATHY    Ugh.  Why? JUNE    Because I don't think I'll make it otherwise. KATHY    Make what? ANNOUNCER    [tv] And now for the final outcome.  MOM    Yes? DAD    About time. ANNOUNCER    [tv]  the final results. FRED    Don't call the police.  I'll get him home. HELEN    Yeah.  This time. ANNOUNCER    [tv] What we've all been working toward. JUNE    [crying] Can't they just say it? TV, MUSIC SWELLS, THEN CUTS OUT SUDDENLY JUNE    What? HELEN    Shit, must have blown the circuit. DAD    The electricity's still on! KATHY    Is there something wrong with your TV? MOM    No!  It's practically new! FRED    Come on.  Quitting time, pal. SOUND    TEST PATTERN NOISE, THEN MUSIC SUDDENLY CUTS BACK IN ANNOUNCER    Thank you all for participating in our experiment.  MOM    [gasp] ANNOUNCER    As you can see, all of our actors are in perfect health. JUNE    [sob]  How could they--? KATHY    Bastards. ANNOUNCER    We would love to hear your reactions to this show.  Please feel free to leave us a message at www-dot- SOUND    TV SWITCHES OFF HELEN     [last call voice] Allright.  That's it. CLOSER   [NOTE:  George Santayana, author of the quote.]

FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic Marriage Day 6 of 8 Guest:                             Dennis Rainey From the Series:          A Man's View of Romance________________________________________________________________­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­ (Music:  "As Time Goes By") Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today.  Our host is the Executive Director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  Stay with us as we talk about how men view romance today on FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "As Time Goes By")                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the broadcast today, as we continue to talk about romance on the program today, and today we're going to talk to wives, right, Dennis? Dennis:          And I've got what one man wants me to do on this broadcast.  He wrote me, "Help my wife understand how I think as a man." Bob:                And you're going to do that in one broadcast?   Dennis:          Well, maybe two, but we're goin' for it.  You know, we're talking about how you can build romance into your marriage here in anticipation of Valentine's Day, and there are undoubtedly a number of marriages who are listening into this broadcasts right now, who are much like the sailors of old, who used to be afraid of an area of the ocean called "The Doldrums." Bob:                The Doldrums? Dennis:          The Doldrums – they were near the Equator.  It's an actual spot, and it was a place where there was no current, there were no winds, and so a sailor could happen into this area and, literally, their boat could be stalled out in the middle of the ocean for days, even weeks, because there would be no wind to pull them out of The Doldrums, and I think that's what happens in a lot of marriages.  And, you know, that's really why we're doing this series.  We want to help marriages not just merely experience romance, because He wants us to have marriages that are alive, that are thriving, that are contagious – Christian marriages – so that we can tell the world about why our marriage is exciting – and that's Jesus Christ.  And I think Jesus Christ wants us to have a romantic relationship.  He doesn't want us to have our marriage be adrift in The Doldrums. Bob:                We've talked over the last couple of days about how a man can romance his wife.  It's a different process for a woman to romance her husband? Dennis:          It sure is.  A woman looks at romance, and she spells romance "relationship."  A man evidently doesn't need that many letters to spell romance, because he spells it very simply – s-e-x, sex.  And what we did was, we surveyed over 800 people at our FamilyLife Marriage Conferences, and it was really quite interesting to see what communicated romance to the men and what communicated romance to the women, and a lot of women are very good students of their husbands, and they are becoming very astute at learning how to communicate romantically in the love language of their husbands so that they have that romance as part of their relationship. Bob:                You know, I've got to believe there are some wives who, right off the bat, though, almost resent you saying that.  They almost resent you saying that romance and sex are synonymous for a husband because maybe it puts pressure on them, or maybe they just don't want that to be all there is to romance with their husbands. Dennis:          Well, there are a lot of women who have an aversion to that, because they are so relationally bent, but whether you resent it or your embrace it, I think you need to listen carefully what we're about to talk about, because it is of vital importance to any marriage that wants to be all that God intended.                           I ran across this little piece by Dr. Joyce Brothers, and Barbara and I included it in our book, "Building Your Mate's Self Esteem," and Dr. Brothers really points out that boredom in the bedroom can really be the demise of a marriage relationship.  She writes, "Sexual boredom is a major element in the 20-year fractures in marriage.  Too many women" – now listen to this carefully – "too many women accept their husband's decreasing interest in sex without stopping to think what might be causing it."                         I think what we've got to do over the next couple of days is talk straight to women about this subject of sex with their husbands, because it's my personal belief that there are a lot of men who are very, very frustrated with what is taking place in the Christian bedrooms of America – notice I said the "Christian bedrooms."  I'm talkin' about the marriages that are attempting to love each other with the sacrificial love that Christ spoke of in Ephesians, chapter 5.  There are women who are committed to their husbands but somehow, in the Christian community, I don't sense the sparkle and the sizzle that ought to be a part of Christian marriage.  And for that reason, I'm going to risk it.  I really want to talk honestly and straight about the sexual needs of men today.                         Now, as I do that, I really feel like, at this point, I need a little bit of a disclaimer here, because there is no doubt about it that men are selfish, and there are a lot of women who are listening to our broadcast who are married to men who really ought to be lined up on the 30-yard line in the Rose Bowl and kicked through the goalpost, because they are self-absorbed, they treat their wives like they're an object and, personally, I'd like to work 'em over, because they are either quoting verses, they're goin' to church and, in the meantime, they really do not give women the dignity that they ought to have.  We talked on the previous broadcast about how men need to romance their wives, and so I want the women listeners to know that I've been careful to talk about how women need to be treated by their husbands first.  But men are selfish.                         A second disclaimer I want to say is that a lot of men have damaged women emotionally.  I mean, they've neglected them, they've not made them a part of their lives, they have become apathetic.  There is no excuse for a man treating a woman with anything other than the love which Christ commands us to treat our wives.                           And the third disclaimer I've got to say about men is some men have really not assumed responsibility in just the most fundamental sense of their families – to lead it spiritually, to pray, to take their wife's hand and show tenderness, and I want you to know that as we move off in this area of understanding men, that I'm a real-world person here; I know a little bit about what's going on in marriages across the country.  But there's a side of men today that I think is being bashed, that is being neglected by some Christian wives, and I think somebody's got to stand up and say, "Could I take a few moments and just talk with you straight about how a man really thinks and really feels?" Bob:                As you describe the selfishness of men or their failure to be involved, I know you know, because we get letters from listeners.  For a woman to give herself physically, sexually, to a man who is not connected with her emotionally, or who is disengaged from the relationship otherwise – it feels demeaning.  She feels like a prostitute. Dennis:          You know, my heart goes out to those women in those situations, because that's not right, and that's not what Christian marriage was meant to be, and, you know, the Bible states it clearly that we're not going to receive all the rewards that are really due to us on this side of eternity, and all I could say at that point is I pray that you might get a chance for you and your husband to experience a FamilyLife Marriage Conference, where he could hear from some men who are real men, who would really challenge him to be a spiritual leader, to be a godly leader of his family and challenge him out of his spiritual apathy, perhaps out of his spiritual deadness.  He may not even be a Christian.  He may be going to church, but he may have never had a life-changing experience with the Savior.                         And we see that occurring over and over again in our FamilyLife Marriage Conferences, where men come to the conference and at the conference they really become husbands. Bob:                In the meantime, though, Dennis, are you saying that these wives need to be romantically involved, sexually involved, with their husbands, even in the midst of some of the selfishness and the spiritual apathy that you've described? Dennis:          Certainly in a situation that is damaging, I would not encourage a woman to continue to submit herself where a husband is damaging her physically, emotionally – but she needs protection in those situations, and that's why we have legal authorities.  Romans, chapter 13 talks about how God has put authority to protect us in the law of the land.  That's why the local church is there to come alongside you and coach you in those situations.                         But to the rest – and, Bob, this is the larger group that I want to speak to right now – to the rest of the Christian women who are listening in today – I want to ask you, have you somehow become self-seeking in your own rights, even in a self-righteous sense?  Do you feel justified in not responding to your husband and not paying attention to him in a vital area of your marriage relationship?                         Now, those are hard words to hear from a man, and I almost feel like apologizing on this broadcast for being a man.  That's how strong, Bob, I feel like the current is in this culture of what the women's movement has done.  It has not made it something to be proud of to be a man.  But you know what?  The feelings that I have as a man and other men that have shared with me in counseling and interaction with them at FamilyLife conferences over the past 18 years, I'm tellin' ya, what I'm about to share is real, and there aren't just a few men who feel this, there are a lot of men who feel this.                         I wonder today, in the Christian community, why has there been such an increase in women who have seemed to resist their husband's sexual advances?  Why does there seem to be such a pushback of a woman – a Christian woman – who doesn't want to do everything she can to please her husband?  Now, I'm not talkin' about doin' weird stuff and feeling used by him, but I'm just talking about going to school on your husband and being the maximum lover that God, the Creator of the universe, the Creator of the sex act, would want you to be in that marriage relationship.                         And I look back, and I look beyond the activity or the lack of activity in that situation, and I've got to ask a fundamental question – is it selfishness?  Is it deceit?  Has the enemy tricked us?  And I think he has.  I honestly believe that in the Christian community today we're afraid to approach this subject in an honest, forthright manner and have a heart-to-heart discussion.  In the meantime, what we're doing is, I think we're blaming a lot of men for where they have failed, and they have failed, I have failed in properly loving my wife. But what man is there that can stand up and say that he has done it right?  Because if you're waiting for your husband to do it perfectly, before you respond or before you begin to please him, then, my friend, you're holding your husband under a performance basis.  You've got a gun to his head, and I'm going to tell you what that's going to do to him – that's going to make him mad.  And that's why I think we have some men today who are swapping out their wife of 15 to 20 years for a woman who appears to be responsive, because men want to be affirmed in who they are as a man. Bob:                Now, you're not saying that a man is justified in doing that. Dennis:          Oh, absolutely not.  That's adultery.  It's emotional adultery beforehand, and that's wrong, and it's physical adultery if they consummate that relationship outside of marriage.  That man would be absolutely blatantly and flagrantly in disobedience to the law of God, and I'm not justifying that activity, but I'm telling you, a man in that circumstance, who is not married to a woman who is a magnet at home, who draws him back to that home, I'm tellin' ya, that man is susceptible.  He is more open to temptation and evil than the man who is loved at home by a wife who is a real student.                         Let me just say this at this point – there are some women listening who have done this and you know what?  You don't need to get uptight that you're not doing enough.  If you have really met your husband at his point of need, then you know what?  You need to celebrate that.  And you husbands who are listening who have a wife like that, go home and put your arm around her and say, "Thank God for this woman who meets my every need.  You are a great woman, you're blessed of God.  Thank you for being a great lover with me as your husband."                         But I think in the Christian community, I think there are some men, and not just a few men, who are angry right now, and they've been wounded by their wife's lack of interest, her neglect, her apathy towards the act of intercourse and wanting to meet her husband's sexual needs. Bob:                I was with a group of couples recently.  We were talking frankly about how men and women are different and how men view sex, and as we talked about it, I had a woman look at me, and she said, "You know what?  Men are just weird.  If they're thinkin' about it that much, if it's that much on their mind, they're just weird.  I don't understand that at all." Dennis:          Well, and we've already talked about this on the previous broadcasts – God made us different. Bob:                Right. Dennis:          Now, why'd he do that?  Is He cruel?  I know one woman who said in a counseling situation, she said, "I just don't know why God didn't make me more like a man."  And, you know, that's not the solution here.  Your husband doesn't want you to be like a man.  Now, you may say, "Huh-uh, huh-uh, I know different than that."  No, he doesn't want you to be like him, he just wants you to be the receiver of his love in a way that communicates affection and warmth to him, and you need to do that within the full-blown perspective of being a woman, being feminine – not becoming masculine, but being the affirming arms of love of God for your husband. Bob:                You know, even in those differences, though, and as we talk about the sexual relationship in marriage, men are thinking about sex, but this isn't just about sex, is it? Dennis:          No, it has to do with who he is as a man.  A woman is commanded to respect her husband.  Ephesians 5:33 says, "Let the wife see to it that she respects her husband."  I really like, Bob, the way the Amplified Bible reads in this verse  -- "And let the wife see to it that she respects and reverences her husband; that she notices him, regards him, honors him, prefers him, venerates and esteems him, and that she defers to him, praises him, loves and admires him exceedingly." Bob:                I know some men who are going to go buy the Amplified version and take it home and just read it for that. Dennis:          You know, the best illustration I've ever seen from this came from a woman who was married, I believe, almost 40 years.  She works here at FamilyLife, and her name is Pat Orten [sp], and I'll never forget this.  I was walking out of the office one day – and Pat is a grandma and a great lady.  Her husband died a number of years ago.  And I asked her, I said, "Pat, as an older woman who has mentored some younger women, what do you think is one of the most important things you could share with a young wife as she starts out her marriage?"  And Pat got a sly grin on her face, and she looked back at me, and she said, "Dennis, I would tell women if they want to be treated like a queen, then they need to crown him king."  And she said, "I always sought to crown my husband king about halfway between his car and the front door when he arrived home," and she had a twinkle in her eye like no grandma I've ever seen when she said that.                         And, you know, Bob, I listened to her, and I said, "That's it.  That's what God wants.  He wants a mature love that has a sparkle to it."  Not a love that becomes mature and has cobwebs all over it.  You know, that's rusty and decayed.  No, it's a love that's excited, and it's a love that is preferring another person, and a part of that preferring moves, I believe, into the bedroom, especially for men today. Bob:                That's what I was going to ask you – respecting is one thing, but what does that have to do with sex? Dennis:          The Proverbs says a wise woman builds up her house.  The foolish woman is the one who destroys it and tears it down.  It's a wise woman, I think, who wants to understand her husband's sex drive.  It's a woman who says, "I want to know my husband, and I want to know his fears, his anxieties.  I want to know what's really behind this thing called man," because I think today a lot of men don't even understand that as well. Bob:                You're saying that there's more being communicated during the sex act than just the pleasure that's associated with it? Dennis:          Well, we're going to have to talk more about this tomorrow, but I'm saying that, for a man, the sex act represents risk, and for the woman who understands how vulnerable, how risky, how he can feel rejected at this point, it is that woman who becomes the very wise and astute wife, because she realizes that her responsiveness, her love for him, her respecting him at that point – she is esteeming and respecting that man as God's creation, and she's not rejecting what God said was very good. Bob:                You know, you've spent a lot of time on the broadcast today, Dennis, talking about sexual intimacy in marriage and how important that is for a husband, but the bigger objective here is not just to improve a couple's sex life, is it? Dennis:          No, it really isn't, and I just want you women to know what we're going to do is really help you romance your spouse, because that is a bedrock issue in marital love.  No, it's not the whole issue, it is merely a part, but I'm going to tell you something, when we ignore this part that God created, we're making a tactical error that is going to cost our marriage dearly. Bob:                Well, I hope you can join us Monday as we continue to look at this important subject for every marriage relationship.                         Our engineer is Mark Whitlock.  Dennis Rainey is our host, and I'm Bob Lepine, and we'll see you Monday for another edition of FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "As Time Goes By")                         FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.   ______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, could   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved.www.FamilyLife.com      

FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic Marriage Day 7 of 8 Guest:                          Dennis Rainey                                From the Series:        A Man's View of Romance________________________________________________________________­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today with our host, Dennis Rainey.  Today we're talking about romance, and I believe the band is ready. (Music:  "It Had To Be You")                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the broadcast today as we continue looking at romance and today looking at how a man views that subject. Dennis:          And because of how he spells it, don't you think we ought to talk to the parents of some younger listeners who eavesdrop into FamilyLife Today occasionally, Bob? Bob:                Yeah, it would probably be a good idea for some of our younger listeners not to listen in on the broadcast today, because the nature of some of this material will be sensitive, and that's because husbands have kind of a one-track mind when it comes to romance. Dennis:          Yeah, we've been talking about how women view romance relationally, and we've hopefully done a good job on previous days of really equipping the men to know how to meet the relational needs of their wives so that their wives can have romance spelled on their hearts by men who really understand their language of love.                         But as we move to men, men spell romance differently.  They spell it s-e-x, and a lot of Christian marriages really suffer because they drift, and they become bored, and I think one of the best illustrations of how a man feels was written in Dr. Ed Wheat's book, "Love Life," and it was from a man who really shared how he felt.  He writes, "My wife and I need help.  I feel that all of our troubles stem from one cause – my wife does not want to have intercourse with me, and I cannot accept this.  The situation has existed all of our 18 years of marriage.  We currently have relations about once a month.  This occurs normally after many days of my frustrating attempts to have her respond.  Then it is not a love affair, but a surrender or duty attitude on her part.  I love my wife.  She's an outstanding wife, mother, and friend, except that she does not physically love me.  I'm afraid to face up to the fact that maybe my wife just doesn't love me and can't respond to me.  I have asked myself many times, 'What are you still married for?'  I have no answer.  I do not know what to do."                         That man is feeling rejection at the core of his manhood.  Now, on behalf of that wife, there may be causes for her that are inhibiting her own sex drive toward her husband that she needs to deal with.  But for that man, can you sense the rejection that he's feeling?  He's questioning the whole act of marriage, and that really points out the importance of this subject.  Romance is not an option for Christian marriage.  Romance ought to be a part of every Christian marriage.  Now, that doesn't mean there's not going to be times in a marriage relationship when you go through a valley or a drought, and there simply isn't a lot of time or a lot of feelings left over to experience romance, but I'm going to tell you something – that ought not to be the steady diet of a marriage relationship.  I believe God intended us to experience romantic love all of our married days. Bob:                Well, 1 Corinthians 7 speaks directly to that issue, doesn't it? Dennis:          Yeah, verse 2 says, "But because of immoralities, let each man have his own wife and let each woman have her own husband." Bob:                Now, what does that mean, "because of immoralities?" Dennis:          Well, I think Paul recognized the temptation that is in the marketplace, and realizing how, especially, men are wired, as well as women, by the way – they can be tempted even through relationships toward sexual immorality.  Paul was a realist.  He said because of the evil that lurks in the marketplace, you need to make your marriage bed a priority.                           Then there is a fascinating verse – in verse 5 it says, "Stop depriving one another."  That's a command – don't deprive one another sexual relations except by agreement.  Paul was realizing the need for us, as couples, to make our marriage bed a priority and specifically on this broadcast today I want to speak honestly and straightforwardly to the wives about helping them understand their husband's sex drive and his need for romantic love that only you, as his wife, can communicate. Bob:                I should interrupt you here just for a minute and let our listeners know, if they're tuning in for the first day, we've been talking about the subject of romance for several days.  We've talked about the foxes that interrupt romance in the marriage relationship.  You've talked to men about how they can be lovers of their wives and really treat them with dignity and respect and cherish them and romance them.  And then you spent a full day talking with men about what you're going to talk with their wives about on today's broadcast, and I think it's important for our listeners to realize that some of the hard things that you're going to say on today's broadcast fit into that context. Dennis:          Yeah, and I'm going to start right out with a hard thing to hear, and so, wives, please, I wish I could go back and give you the context of previous broadcasts, but I'm just talkin' to you straight, because I think today we really need to give you the benefit of hearing from a man how it really is.  And the first thing I want to say is you, as a wife, need to assume responsibility for your husband's sexual needs.                           You know, it was interesting, Bob, as I did a lot of hours of research and thinking and reading in preparation for this series, I reflected back that there are a number of books, there are a number of counselors that are telling the men how to romance their wives, and, really, there's a drought of writing about this subject of male sexuality helping women, helping wives, understand their responsibility to meet this area of physical need in their husbands lives.  And the interesting thing is, as I began to read, I began to feel like, more and more, the weight of romance fell squarely, nearly 100 percent, on the man's shoulders.  Now, do I think he primarily is responsible for this?  Yes.  But does that primary responsibility of the man absolve the woman of all responsibility?  Huh-huh.  I believe she has responsibility as well.                         Over in 1 Corinthians, chapter 7, verse 32 through 34, the command there is for husbands to please their wives and for wives to please their husbands, and if it was just the man's responsibility to please his wife, then the command of 1 Corinthians, chapter 7, would have stopped before verse 34 where it addresses the wife. Bob:                Okay, well, if the man is still to take primary responsibility over a couple's romantic relationship, then in what sense does a woman have a responsibility to be romantically involved with her husband?  What's her role in all of this? Dennis:          Well, I think she needs to be a part of creatively praying and thinking and actively pursuing her husband on his agenda, and we've stated that repeatedly over this series.  His agenda, for most men, is spelled s-e-x.  It's on the physical side of the love relationship.  Now, that doesn't mean she has to be preoccupied with sex all day long.  That's not going to be a part of her wiring and who she is.  It just means that she must make her husband a priority in this area of their marriage relationship.                           And let me just say to the ladies at this point – I don't want you to think, as we continue to move through these points, because over the next couple of days, these are going to get a little grittier and a little, perhaps, tougher to hear from a woman's perspective, but what I'm going to promise you is this will not be a superficial approach to a subject that, from a Christian perspective, I believe firmly must be dealt with from a biblical standpoint.                           The second point I want to make to ladies is that most men – now listen carefully – most men don't understand their own sex drive, and what is compelling them to pursue their wives physically.  Now, did you hear that?  Most men don't understand themselves sexually.  So you're wondering – how am I going to be able to understand him when he doesn't understand himself?                         You know, it's really interesting, as you listen to men talk, there are all kinds of sexual innuendoes in their jokes – and I'm not saying, by the way, that they're appropriate – but there's all kinds of statements made that just hint that they are horribly insecure about this subject.  And what a man needs is he needs the commitment, the strong commitment, the resilient love of a woman who says, "Sweetheart, I am yours, and I am proud to be yours.  You know what?  You can be real, and you can be frail, and you can be weak, and I will still respect you, and I will still love you."  But the problem is, is most men have a difficult time really hearing that message, because of the threat of this area of their own manhood. Bob:                All right, well, let me get this real practical, if I can.  Let's say it's 9:30 tonight, the kids are in bed – Dennis:          – that's ideal, that's not just practical – Bob:                – husband and wife have, oh, a few minutes together on the sofa before they go to bed, and a wife thinks to herself, "Now that thing Dennis was talkin' about on the radio, about how can a wife help her husband understand his own sexual desires" – what does she cuddle up next to him and say that will help initiate a conversation around that subject? Dennis:          Okay, first of all, the couch is a great spot to have this discussion.  Maybe even the dinner table or a walk.  Of course, if it's dark outside – of course, that may even be a better idea for men, because of the threat.  But I would suggest getting a book that Barbara and I wrote called, "The Questions Book."  Now this is a book that has 31 questions that I'll bet you've never asked your spouse, and one of the questions I think would really be appropriate here.  It's a question that will unlock, I think, what is really behind what communicates romance to your husband.  The question is this – what are the three most romantic times that we have shared together as a couple and why?                         Then what I would encourage you to do, as a wife, is just listen carefully to what he says and why he says that was romantic to him.  Listen to the messages that are behind the statements and listen to what really affirms him in the sexual dimension of your relationship, and if he doesn't mention sex in the first romantic adventure that you have, then that's okay.  There may be some things that communicate romance and love to him that are quite apart from a sex act, but I've got to believe that one of those three are going to include something that involved a romantic evening that was enchanting around the subject of sex.  And then I would begin to ask him – why that was affirming?  Why did that feel affirming?  And if conversation goes on, and he feels comfortable, I would talk about his fears.  What are your fears around the sex act?  Around how you feel about yourself as a man?  Talk about his doubts – does he have any?  Because most men do have doubts about their ability to perform and really be a great lover of their wives. Bob:                As a wife begins to attempt to open her husband up on this subject, she may meet with resistance either at the very start or anytime she begins to probe more deeply.  What should she do when she meets with that resistance? Dennis:          Well, that's the real world.  There are some men who, at that point, they're not going to want to talk, and I wouldn't press it at that point.  But what you can become sensitive to, as a woman, are those opportunities where perhaps he will be willing to talk and where you can better understand him and where you can begin to probe him with questions when he is willing to open up.                         I would also encourage couples around this subject to go to a FamilyLife Marriage Conference because sometimes it takes a whole weekend of a man getting away from his work, from household duties, and experiencing some romance with his wife at a quality hotel to really begin to unthaw the emotions. Bob:                And on Saturday afternoon, as they work through a project, that subject will come up, won't it? Dennis:          That's exactly right.  And at that point, the commitment in the relationship, I think, has been heightened, and the freedom that a man feels at that point in the FamilyLife Marriage Conference is a time when I think he may begin to open up. Bob:                Well, you've talked already on the broadcast today about how a woman needs to assume some responsibility in this area, and how most men just don't get it, even about their own sexuality.  What else? Dennis:          Well, I think a woman needs to understand that a man needs to be needed by his wife sexually.  If you want to see your husband literally go through the ceiling with excitement, express tonight that you need him sexually.  You can do that verbally, or you can do that by being friendly to him tonight – how else shall I say it?  Genesis 2:18 says, and this is God speaking, "It is not good for the man to be alone."  God points out that man needed a counterpart.                         I'll never forget a young seminary wife – I was speaking on the West Coast at a major evangelical seminary – and I was talking to the women at a wives' class about how they could communicate love to their husbands, and this young seminarian wife came up after I'd finished speaking, and she said, "Dennis," and she started giggling, she said, "We were driving home the other night from youth group, my husband is a youth pastor, and in the quiet of the car, we were just driving along there in the dark, and I turned to him, and I said, 'Sweetheart, what would really encourage you to be a man of God?'"  And she said, "Dennis, there was a moment of silence, and he said, 'Well, if I came home from seminary in the afternoon and found you at home with no clothes on welcoming me home.""  And she kinda giggled, and she said, "Do you think he really meant it?"  And I said, "I don't know.  Maybe you ought to try it."                         Now, isn't it interesting that here's a guy who is immersing himself in the study of the scriptures.  His wife asked him what can encourage you to become a man of God?  You'd think he would want maybe a theological set of books about the Bible, maybe some time with a great man of God.  Hm-mm.  He wants a time with his wife alone to just be affirmed sexually.  Now, that's a message that I think we need to be shouting from the mountaintops today. Bob:                You know, some wives would say, "I feel like I'm doing this for my husband, but at the same time that I'm trying to affirm him, I'm feeling unaffirmed.  I'm feeling used." Dennis:          Charlie Shedd in his book, "Letters to Karen," made a powerful statement – and this is a book from a father to his daughter about marriage, love, and about life.  He writes, "Be sexually aggressive some of the time.  Your husband longs to believe that he's wonderful enough for you to yearn for his sexual companionship.  It matters everything to a man if he has a home where he knows he has great value.  Your husband can stand much more of the rough-and-tumble of a cutthroat world if you have convinced him that his home is an emotional center where he is vitally important."  And did you hear what he was saying to do that?  A part of that is being creative and initiating sexually toward your husband. Bob:                I don't even know if you can do this.  Do you have any other ideas? Dennis:          I'm not going to go further as to how a woman can do that, graphically talking about that, but I do think what she needs to do is communicate her need of her husband – do that verbally.  Let him know that you are his lover.  Write him a note, maybe a surprise – let him know that he has occupied your thoughts today sexually.  That's good.  God would not be ashamed.  He would not be up in heaven right now hiding his face, blushing, that I'm saying this over Christian radio.  Our God made the whole sexual dimension of marriage, and He's for it.                         I think what we want to communicate here is that a woman who wants to please her husband can learn how to do that in a way that communicates love to him and, most likely, those gifts of pleasing your husband will involve sacrifice.  That's what makes them so valuable. Bob:                You know, Dennis, tomorrow is Valentine's Day, and I can imagine there are some wives who are listening to the broadcast who think, "I have tried to do what you've talked about today.  I have tried to affirm and esteem my husband and build him up, and yet when we are together romantically, when we're together sexually, I feel very unaffirmed.  I feel used," and she wonders, "Do I keep going?  Do I stay with it?" Dennis:          Boy, that's a tough one, because there are men that, for whatever reason, are unresponsive, and I would say if you're in a marriage like that, you need to seek out a friend of the same sex who can pray for you, who can encourage you, and you need to be vitally involved in your local church, growing spiritually. Bob:                And maybe the broadcasts that we did earlier, where we talked to husbands about how they can romance their wives – maybe that tape would be helpful for a husband. Dennis:          Yeah, and perhaps an invitation to your husband to write a letter explaining his lack of response.  Sometimes men can be threatened by verbally communicating, because they're so tangled in their own emotions, they can get free to share it.  And perhaps the open invitation to a man to write down his thoughts to his wife, just perhaps there's a man who is listening, or a wife who can use that to help her husband begin to really open up his heart and become vulnerable. Bob:                Are you going to talk more to wives on tomorrow's broadcast? Dennis:          We've got a long list here. Bob:                All right.  I hope our listeners can join us for that.  Our engineer is Mark Whitlock.  Dennis Rainey is our host.  I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "It Had To Be You")                         FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.   __________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, could   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved.www.FamilyLife.com     

FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic Marriage Day 5 of 8 Guest:                        Dennis Rainey From the Series:     A Man's View of Romance ________________________________________________________________­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­(Music:  "Why Can't a Woman Be More Like a Man?") Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today.  Our host is the executive director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and if you've ever scratched your head and asked yourself the same question Henry Higgins asked himself, then stay with us for today's edition of FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "Why Can't a Woman Be More Like a Man?")                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, and let me see if I can do a recap, Dennis, for our listeners here as we begin the broadcast.  Last week you talked with us about why romance is so important for a marriage relationship. Dennis:          Right. Bob:                You talked about the "romance robbers" that every relationship experiences.  Barbara joined us, and we spent three days talking to men about how wives view this issue of romance, and we just had a couple of days with the guy you describe as the "Michael Jordan of romance," who talked with us about some creative things that his group – that he calls the "Men of the Titanic" have done to communicate romance to their wives, and before we talk to wives about how their husbands view romance, you want to spend one more session talking to the men, right? Dennis:          Right.  You know, I think a lot of Christians are afraid to discuss the obvious.  There is a great struggle that is taking place in the Christian bedrooms of our nation, and if that struggle is going to be diminished, and Christian marriages are to emerge, then that means we've got to get honest and look at this biblically, we've got to look at it and speak out it forthrightly and, in the best way we know how to talk about it, be able to speak honestly first of all to men about what they're feeling when it comes to sexuality. Bob:                Now, is it okay for the wives to listen in as we talk to their husbands? Dennis:          I think, for today's broadcast, you ladies can just eavesdrop as I just have a heart-to-heart talk with the men, because I think a lot of us, as men, are really confused, and this first point I want to make with the husbands is you need to reserve romance and your sexuality for your wife only.  What I mean by that is God has blessed you and given you great sexual energy.  That ought to move you to serve her, to love her, to sacrificially give to her without resentment.                         Now, those last two words are very important – "without resentment" – because I think God gives us, as men, this urge to initiate toward our wives for a reason, because our wives are different.  They have relational needs, and what we do with our own sex drive, as we look at our wife's needs, can either move us to using our wives as an object or we, as men, can realize that we need to get on our wife's wavelength and how she views romance; that is, her need for relational love, and that means spending time with her, taking walks, some of the things we've talked about earlier in this series. Bob:                Are you saying here that if a man is failing in these areas, if he's not communicating love to his wife on her terms, then he really needs to make that a priority before he has any expectations from his own wife? Dennis:          I'm saying when Paul commanded husbands to love their wives, He commanded them to nourish and cherish their wives.  The picture is of bathing them in nutrition for their soul.  What is that for a woman?  It's a relationship.  It's sharing your life, as a man, with your wife, and if you don't do that, most likely your wife is going to feel like a sex object, and I think one of the best questions a man could ask his wife at this point, to see how he's doing, is say, "Sweetheart, when I make love to you, do you feel loved?" I'm convinced there are a lot of wives who would say, "No.  I may feel pleasure, I may feel sexual release, but somehow, sweetheart, you're not communicating real love to me, because you haven't met those relational needs." And it's not what the man is doing or not doing in the midst of the actual act of intercourse.  It's what he hasn't done to prepare that relationship with his wife and enable her to feast on having fun, on being nourished and cherished by someone who tenderly cares for his wife.   Now, this next thing I need to talk to men about at this point – this gets kind of tough to speak to men, but I've gotta do it – men sometimes have a higher felt need for sex than their wives, and I've got a couple of questions for you men who continually find yourself in overdrive in this area.   The first question is – are you feeding your sexual appetite throughout the day?  Your fantasies, what you look at, what you watch, what you allow your mind to feast on – are you feeding that regularly throughout the day in an unbridled fashion?  It is a wise man who, first of all, looks to himself in saying, "Am I really setting up our marriage to win here or am I somehow, because of what I'm allowing myself to think about all day, am I being selfish in arriving at the marriage bed almost setting my wife up to fail because I have so feasted in my mind on my sexual creativity?" Bob:                There needs to be some self control and discipline that a man exercises over his own thought life? Dennis:          Discipline is a part of the Christian life, and I think for a lot of men this goes down hard, because what we would like to say is we would like to have complete freedom to think about what we would like to think about and arrive home all sexually energized and charged up, but the problem is – what's our wife been thinking about all day?  She's had kids draped all over her legs and arms, tuggin' on her skirt, and here's the man arriving home.  He's had all these thoughts, and his wife is nowhere in the ballpark, let alone ready to go to bed with him.                         A third thing I'd like to encourage the men to do, and this is going to sound the riskiest of all, but it's absolutely important that you share your feelings about your own sexuality.  This is what women really don't understand about men, because men aren't in touch with what they're feeling about their own sexuality.  And a part of this, Bob, I believe, is a man must express to his wife the importance of his wife's response at the point where he initiates intercourse with his wife. Bob:                But you're saying before he does that, he needs to understand that importance himself? Dennis:          That's right.  First of all, he's got to understand what it is he's feeling, and then begin to put it in words with his wife, and this is the interesting thing – most men have never talked about this with anyone in their lifetimes.  It's interesting, America is a culture that is saturated with sex, and yet men, I believe, are more insecure, they've got more confusion, more anxieties, more temptations – I think they've got unreal expectations about themselves, about their spouse, and what may be the best vehicle for the man to discuss this is to simply write out a letter to his wife about how he feels about his own sexuality.  Include in there any anxiety you may feel, certain feelings you may have about your own performance, how you feel at the point when you are initiating, and then include a paragraph about how you feel when your wife says no.  Because I think sometimes the way men express their feelings is with anger.  They've been hurt, they've been disappointed, and what comes out is anger.  They kick wastecans.  I know one man who kicked a hole in his garage door.  That's a long way from the bedroom, so you've got to wonder how he got down there to do that, but the guy was ticked off.                         The time to communicate this is never in your bedroom.  It should always be in the midst and the context of a relationship – on a walk – it's not at 11:00 at night when you're both exhausted.  It's in a prime time of the day when you can talk about this and connect with your spouse.  I think there are a lot of women who really do want to understand their husbands, and what I would say to the women at this point – be patient with your man, because he, most likely, has never, ever talked with another man about this, let alone a woman.  And now you're his wife, and now you share this bed together, and you can't help but maybe feel it personally as well, as a woman, feeling like he's rejecting you. Bob:                One of the things that makes those discussions difficult for couples is what happens after that?  The next time you come together, there are all kinds of thoughts running through both of your heads, and it makes it awkward. Dennis:          Yes, and that's a part of a growing marriage relationship that I think young couples just need to relax and grow through – or a couple who has been married for 15 to 20 years, who may go through some discussions that they've never shared in the past.                           Yes, you may feel self-conscious, but do you know what I'd do at that point?  Learn to laugh and not be so serious about this thing called sex.  We're certainly devoting a lot of days to it here on the broadcast, and that's because it is a very serious subject, but one of the things Barbara and I have attempted to do is, we have attempted to keep laughter as a part of our marriage bed.  It takes some of the pressure off, it allows us the freedom to share some humor in the midst of what can be far too serious of a subject. Bob:                Mm-hm. Dennis:          Okay, men, this next point may not even sound like it relates to sexual intimacy, but it does, and that is you need to pray with your wife about this area of your relationship – pray for yourself that you'll be selfless, that you'll be a man who knows how to deny himself for your wife, and in many cases there can be no greater act of love on your wife's behalf than you denying your own desires for your wife.  Ask God to give you the strength to be able to do that.  Ask God to give you an understanding of how to love her and how to meet her needs.                         I want to tell you something – the Holy Spirit of God, if you're a believer in Jesus Christ – indwells you.  He can guide you and lead you into becoming a better lover.  Now, you may say, "The Holy Spirit wants to help me be a better lover?"  Absolutely.  You can't tell me the God of the Universe that created sexual love is not interested in helping us when we don't know how we need help, and I've found God has given me ways of loving Barbara at times when, truthfully, I was at a dead end.  I didn't know how to meet her needs.                         Pray for your wife.  Pray that she'll feel loved when you initiate sexual love with her.  That's an important part.  You know what?  I'd even pray with her before the act of intercourse that God might enable you to communicate love to her. Bob:                Now, you've got to know, Dennis, there are some folks who hear you say that and think, "That just feels strange – to pray together and then go to bed together." Dennis:          Well, if that sounds strange, then the next point I've got is going to sound stranger – and that would be to pray during the act of making love with one another.  Now, how strange does that sound? Bob:                Well, there are some folks who are probably thinking that sounds pretty strange, too. Dennis:          Well, let me ask you something – is God there in your bedroom in the midst of this? Bob:                Yeah, I guess He is. Dennis:          I think He is, and I believe sexual love is an act of worship.  I think it is the deepest form of emotion and feeling two people share together.  Who made that?  It wasn't man.  God made it.  Why not share in prayer together in the middle of marital love? Bob:                You know, I was talking about this with a Sunday School class one time, and I said that the sex act is an act of worship, and a guy came up to me the next week, and he said, "We went home and had a revival at our house after Sunday School last week."                         You know, I think there is a false sense of separation that most Christians feel between the spiritual side of life and the sexual side of life. Dennis:          Well, you know, there's one last point of prayer and, again, I'm just being realistic – after you've shared in love together – what finer moment than to say, "Lord Jesus, thank you for this woman You've given me."  And I've prayed that many times with Barbara – "Thank You for what we have just enjoyed together.  Thank You for her, thank You for her love, thank You for her trust of me as a man."    __________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, could   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved.www.FamilyLife.com     

FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic Marriage Day 4 of 8 Guest:                         Barbara Rainey From the Series:         A Woman's View of Romance_____________________________________________________________ Bob:                Welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Today we're speaking frankly about how a woman views romance. (Music:  "Love and Marriage")                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Thanks for joining us on the broadcast.  We are beginning Week Number 2 of our look at Creating a More Romantic Marriage, and I just want to encourage folks, if you missed any of last week's programs, or if you're going to miss any of this week's programs, this is a series that husbands and wives ought to get and listen to together, and then they can talk, they can interact, about what they hear on the tapes. Dennis:          You know, this subject of developing and cultivating romance in a marriage relationship is a discussion that is long overdue among Christian couples, because we ought to have among the most passionate relationships on the planet.  Our God created romance in the first place. Bob:                Well, we're going to talk on today's broadcast about how men and women view romance, and we've brought your wife, Barbara, back in the studio with us today.  Barbara, welcome back to FamilyLife Today. Barbara:         Thanks, good to be here. Bob:                And one of the things that we want to do is look at research.   Dennis:          Right. Bob:                You commissioned that be done at our FamilyLife Marriage Conferences across the country – we had a researcher who talked with women about how they view romance, how they view it primarily, is that right? Dennis:          Actually, this Top 10 list of romantic acts came from both men and women. Bob:                Well, let me go over the list, Barbara.  I'm going to go from 10 to 1, and I'll read what people indicated expressed romance, and then I want to know, as a man, and I want to know how I can keep these ideas in front of me and sprinkle them into a relationship as a way to express romance – again, with no hidden agenda, no – not driving for anything.  Number 10, hands are romantic; holding hands, particularly, is romantic for a woman.  Do you like holding hands with Dennis? Barbara:         Mm-hm. Bob:                Why is that romantic for you? Barbara:         I do it because it says, "I want to be close to you, and I like you, and you're my friend, and I want to be next to you."  I mean, those are the kinds of things that communicates to me, and that's the reason that I initiate it, and I think that's probably the same for him, too.  So I think it's the closeness that it communicates. Bob:                Okay, how about Number 9, which is massaging one another – rubbing the neck.  Do you like when Dennis reaches over and rubs the back of your neck?  Dennis, massage oftentimes will have a sexual connotation, and some women may pull back from liking massage because they think it's just foreplay. Dennis:          Right. Barbara:         Exactly.  I think that's right. Bob:                So if it's non-sexual massage where it's just – "Let me rub your back, and you can fall asleep," then that's okay? Barbara:         Oh, I think so, yeah. Bob:                Number 8 on the list is serving – serving the other person – common courtesies – opening the door, holding a chair out for somebody, doing little acts of sacrifice.  Is that romantic for a woman? Barbara:         To me, I don't think of that as being as romantic, if I had to define them, as, say, holding hands but, again, I think it's important to do.  I think it says "I am denying myself for you.  I am going to serve you," and I think that anytime a husband can serve his wife sacrificially and do something for her, he's communicating to her that he cares about her and that he loves her and she's special, and he wants to make her feel special. Bob:                Okay. Dennis:          Let me make a comment on this next one – number 7 – because this made this spot in the combined list – 75 percent of the men picked this item as number 1 of what was most romantic.  So this, again, kind of lets you know the men viewed this substantially heavier and weightier than the women did because, together, it became number 7.   Bob:                So men had it at number 1, women – Barbara:         Someone must have had it a lot lower for the average to be seven. Dennis:          It must have been a lot lower. Bob:                And number 7 is a kiss – an unexpected kiss, a nibble on the back of the neck, or just kissing each other. Dennis:          Now, why do you think, Barbara, the women would have ranked that so much differently than the men? Barbara:         Because I think it probably, if the truth be known, they might have felt that he had another motive, and I just wonder if some of the women were feeling suspicious.  I think some of these other things might be able to be seen as an individual fact or as an individual gesture – Bob:                – so if he opens the door, she doesn't feel he's up to something, but if he kisses her, she wonders what's goin' on in the back of his mind. Barbara:         She might go, "Okay"—yeah, right – "I wonder what he's thinkin'?" Dennis:          And the rest of this list, really, if you look at it, with the exception of this and the massage – really, are statements of a relationship and women view romance through the eyes of a relationship.  They want to be loved, known – Barbara:         – understood – Dennis:          – there ya go – Barbara:         – accepted, valued, appreciated – Dennis:          – she knows the words – why did I even try, huh? Barbara:         Well, you did a good job. Bob:                It just wasn't complete.  All right, number 10 was holding hands; number 9, massage; number 8 serving one another, opening doors, common courtesies; number 7, kissing; number 6 was walking.  Now, there's a romantic 30 minutes – we went on a walk together – that's romantic for women? Barbara:         Well, it's very relational.  I think if you go for a walk, chances are you're going to go for a walk away from daily responsibilities – away from the telephone, away from the television, away from the children, away from work, away from whatever – and it allows you to focus on the relationship without having to sit on a couch and look at each other eye-to-eye and be relational, which is sometimes very threatening. Dennis:          And I think the reason why most men would respond just as you did, Bob, is because of what Barbara just said – it's not sexual.  When we think of what's romantic to us, and we really evaluate it, we would not put walking at the top of the list. Bob:                We're going to talk about this next week – but it is interesting, because I hear you saying in this – part of what speaks romance to a woman is "Get me outta here."  In the day-to-day of life with all of the kids and with all of the responsibilities – get me away from this for a little while, and that will be so refreshing to me, it will speak volumes.  That's at least a part of it, and then – have a relationship with me. Barbara:         I think that's part of it, mm-hm. Bob:                All right, number 5 on the list – something written – written notes or letters or poems or cards or notes on the bathroom mirror or just some written remind of affection – is that romantic? Barbara:         Mm-hm, I think it is.  In fact, I found this note, and I don't know how old it was, but Dennis had taped a note in the bathroom, and it said, "Have you found all the little notes around that say how much I love you?"  It was just fun to see that and read it again, and I thought, "You know, that's still true," and I don't know what the notes all were, but it was fun to see that. Bob:                As you said that, I was thinking it was years ago – I don't know how many years ago – but one night Mary Ann had gone to bed, she was exhausted, and I sat up, and I wrote a half a dozen of the notes, and I scattered them around the house in places where it might be weeks before she would find them, and one of them was in a recipe folder that she had for chicken dishes, and I just put it in there figuring, you know, it could be six months from now, but she'll find it, it will be a surprise.  Well, five, 10 years later, it's still in the same – every time I'm goin' through there, I go – Dennis:          – has she never seen it? Bob:                Oh, she's seen it. Barbara:         She's probably seen it and left it there. Bob:                But she's never thrown it away, and I keep – you know – why don't you throw this thing away?  I mean, it's old, it's on old stationery.                         All right, let me read through the list here again – number 10, hands; number 9, massage; number 8, serving one another; number 7, kiss; number 6, walking; number 5, something written; number 4, going out on a day – time away – dates with no kids, dinner out, a weekend at a bed and breakfast – just time alone together on dates.  Is that romantic? Barbara:         Yeah, mm-hm.  I think, for the same reason again, I think a wife feels that she is the focus of her husband's attention when she knows that he's doing this for her. Bob:                You two have made that a regular part of your relationship.  There is, as often as you're able, on a weekly basis, you have a date.  Does that make it less special? Barbara:         No. Bob:                It's routine? Barbara:         Huh-uh, not at all. Bob:                You look forward to Sunday night date night, even if it's every week? Barbara:         Yeah, I look forward to that moreso now than when we tried doing this when our kids were young.  We tried doing it when our children were young, and it was hard to do it, because it was hard to get babysitters, and it was hard to get away, and in those years, it was easier for us to spend time together at home because the kids all went to bed at 7:30 or 8, and we had two hours, at least, every evening.  Well, now that our children are older, it's really tough to get two seconds alone at home. Dennis:          Right, but when the kids were little, one of the ways we solved the problem of babysitters was we would go ahead and put the kids to bed, and then I would prepare the meal and would give Barbara 30, 45 minutes to run about doing her duties, and then I would take the meal upstairs to our bedroom and had a table at the foot of our bed that I put a nice tablecloth on and with the good plates and the napkins and the good silverware and had a beautiful candlelight dinner there, and when the meal was over, you didn't have to go anywhere and, frankly, we have some great memories of those conversations because at the end of the evening there was nothing to change the mood of the evening.  We didn't have to go anywhere – we were there, and I took the dishes downstairs while she got ready for bed and cleaned up the kitchen so she didn't come back downstairs the next morning to a dirty kitchen. Bob:                That really ties to number 3, which is meals.  Number 4 is a date together; number 3 is having meals together – special meals, candlelight, quiet dinner alone, picnics, a breakfast out together – those kinds of events, but what is it about a picnic away or Dennis saying, "Let's go out and have breakfast, just the two of us."  What is it about that that's romantic? Barbara:         Well, I think it's the unexpected.  The one that jumps off the list that you just read to me is picnic because that's one we've done so seldom, and that would be, to me, the most fun because that's one which is hardly ever done.  So I think keeping variety in it is really a good idea, but there's a lot (inaudible) – [crosstalk]  Bob:                – make note of that.  I'm just checkin' to see if you're makin' notes here. Barbara:         He knows.  We've talked about it.  It's just hard to pull off. Bob:                All right, number 2 is touch, and with this we're not talking about sexual touch, we're talking about holding or hugs or cuddling or affection in public and yet, even as I say that, I think, for a lot of women, being touched may always feel sexual to them.  They may, like with a kiss or with a massage, wonder what's really behind this, mightn't they? Barbara:         Well, I think so, but I think that's where a husband needs to know his wife, and he needs to ask her questions, he needs to seek to understand who she is and where she's coming from and why she feels the way she does and how she will respond to different things, because it may be that she will feel somewhat suspicious with physical touch.  And so he may need to assure her – "I just want to hug you because I love you – no strings attached, I'm just committed to you, and that's all I want you to know" – or something that helps her understand his meaning or his intent behind it, because I do think that, just like with holding hands, it communicates closeness, it communicates "I like you."  I think hugs and other kinds of affection that's non-sexual affection sends the same message.  It communicates I like you and I want to be close to you, and I think you're a neat person.   Dennis:          Yeah, one of the best-sellers at our FamilyLife Marriage Conference is Ed Wheat's book, "Love Life For Every Married Couple," and it's a book about romance, and when I first read this a number of years ago, I kind of laughed that he would need to take three pages in the book to give married couples exercises for learning how to touch one another.  But on page 184 through 186 he has 25 suggestions for touching, and I'll just read a couple of these, because they're really quite instructive, I think.                         "Number 1 – when dating, young people can scarcely be kept apart.  Most married couples have forgotten how much fun physical closeness can be.  So set aside practice times at night, at least once a week, to learn the delights of non-sexual body caressing."  At this point, in our marriage conference, when I read this, all the engaged people fall out of their chairs laughing.  The married people aren't laughing.  They're goin' "That's a good idea."                         "Number 2 – show each other where you like to be touched and the kind of touch that really pleases you.  Usually a light touch is the most thrilling.  Be imaginative in the way you caress."                         You know, I think he's onto something here to give us some practical thoughts about how to re-ignite exploration through tender touching of one another's bodies.  I think when we get married the familiarity with one another causes the loss of the intrigue, the exploration, and the excitement, and I think Dr. Wheat does a great job of giving us some practical projects that couples, I think, will find exciting. Bob:                I've got to imagine there are some men who are saying, "This sounds to me like a contradiction in terms – non-sexual touching.  I can do that, sure, but in the back of my mind, touching is, for me, sexually stimulating.  Whether it's holding hands, whether it's putting my arm around my wife, whether it's re-imagining the things we did on dates – that has a sexual dimension and for me not to have the sexual dimension fulfilled is a sacrifice on my part." Dennis:          That's the point.  I think to have those feelings is normal.  To deny that you have those feelings is not healthy.  I think it's okay to experience attraction, arousal, at that point.  I think what our wives are looking for is such a premium, such a value placed upon the relationship and who she is, that we are willing to set aside those desires and not take that touch toward what we, as men, would know would be the intended objective. Bob:                I remember the Ann Landers survey, you know, where they said, "Would you rather have sexual relations with your husband or just cuddle with him?"  And women, in droves, said, "I'd rather just cuddle with him," and I thought, "Do the women understand that cuddling with him is stimulating sexually?"  And that's the reason that it often goes on to sexual relations, because he's responding to what's going on inside of him, and you're saying he needs to put that to death from time to time. Dennis:          That's right – and not allow his mind to continue on.  He needs to build some limits that really communicate to his wife that "I'm willing to set aside my desires for you." Barbara:         Yeah, and I was just thinking, as you were saying about the survey that I think probably the reason a lot of women feel that way is they probably weren't loved and cuddled as children by their parents, and they missed that, and they have this deep longing to know that they are loved, and they want that from their husband, and if all they get from their husband is sexual initiation or sexual touching or cuddling, then they think, "Gosh, he doesn't really love me, he just needs me," or "He just wants me for his own pleasure, his own need," and so I think that's, again, another cue for a man to say, "I need to understand my wife.  I need to understand why she needs non-sexual affection," and I think we all need affection, because we need to know that we're valued as people, and that's a way to communicate that.  But I think that, for a husband, he needs to say, "Okay, why does she feel this way?  Why does my wife need non-sexual affection?"  And he needs to ask her, and they need to talk that through, and he needs to be willing to give it to her with no strings attached. Bob:                Mm-hm, okay, top 10 again – Number 10, holding hands; number 9, massage; number 8, serving one another; number 7, a kiss; number 6, walking together; number 5, written love notes to one another; number 4, going out on dates; number 3, having meals together; number 2 is non-sexual touching – Dennis:          – and number 1 is not diamonds. Bob:                Number 1, the most romantic act, according to respondents at the FamilyLife Marriage Conference – do you want to say what it was? Dennis:          Go ahead. Bob:                It's flowers – delivered, hand-picked, bringing them home – a single rose – it doesn't seem to matter.  I'll never forget being at a FamilyLife Marriage Conference where I was speaking, and I got – we were all waiting for the elevator, a whole group of us waiting for the elevator, and when the elevator car came, here came the guy holding a dozen roses, and he walked off – he was the flower delivery guy – and every woman at the elevator turned to watch, to see which room in the hotel he was going to, and they watched, and they watched – nobody got on the elevator, they just watched. Barbara:         How funny. Bob:                And finally, he went down the hall and finally he stopped at a room and as soon as he did, all these women kind of turned at their husband and glared at him, like, "That wasn't our room.  How come you didn't get me flowers?"  There is – what is it about flowers, Barbara? Barbara:         Well, I think flowers say that you're special.  I think it's the surprise that comes with flowers.  I think it's because they're unexpected.  I think because it's a frivolous thing, and I think it communicates love.  I think it says lots of things to a woman about love and about her being a special person, a valued person, an appreciated person – that her husband is willing to do that for her. Bob:                When Dennis brings home flowers do you immediately stop and think, "What's he up to?" Barbara:         I don't think I have.  I really don't think I have. Bob:                So we go through this top 10 list as men – we look at all of the non-sexual things that are on the list, and we say, "Are you sayin' I just need to keep doin' these over and over again, mixing 'em in, a little bit here, a little bit there, and expect nothing in return?" Barbara:         Yeah, but I think husbands need to ask the Lord to help them be creative and ask the Lord to help them think of their wives and ask God to help them understand and pursue, because it isn't – again, as we've talked about a formula several different times – but I think that the idea is that a woman wants to feel special and valued and appreciated and all of those words I've been using, and I think she needs to feel that from her husband in different ways at different times and unique opportunities. Bob:                You know, this is going to sound redundant, but just listening to all of this, I thought romance was supposed to be fun, and it this doesn't sound like as much fun as I had hoped it would be. Dennis:          But I think it is fun.  I think it is fun to find out what communicates romance to my wife. Barbara:         And it may not be fun in the way you've always defined fun, because I've learned to enjoy a lot of things through the years of being married to Dennis, because he has introduced me to things that I would have never done on my own and, likewise, he has learned to enjoy things that he would have never done if it weren't for me.  So I think we need to be willing to have our definition of fun broadened, because it will be fun, but it may be fun in a different way than what you're thinking and be willing to try something new.  You may like it. Bob:                Well, I just want to say thanks.  Can I thank your wife for being on the broadcast with us? Dennis:          Only after I do – honey, thanks for sharing your heart and being real for women, so – well – a lot of men can better understand how to communicate love and romance to their wives. Bob:                Yeah, and thanks for the insight I've gotten over the last three days of the broadcast on how women view romance.                           Well, on tomorrow's broadcast we're going to talk to – I don't know how to describe him – you described him as the "Michael Jordan of romance," right? Dennis:          Whatever you do, every man needs to listen to tomorrow.  You think you are a romantic husband – do not miss tomorrow, because you're going to be blown away by the guy we have the opportunity to talk to tomorrow. Bob:                I hope you can be here for it.  Our engineer is Mark Whitlock, our host Dennis Rainey, and I'm – Dennis:          – would you agree, Bob? Bob:                I would agree, absolutely.   Dennis:          All right, okay. Bob:                I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "Love and Marriage")                         FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  __________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, could   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved.www.FamilyLife.com     

FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic Marriage Day 3 off 8 Guest:                             Barbara Rainey From the Series:          A Woman's View of Romance________________________________________________________________­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today with your host, the executive director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey.  I'm Bob Lepine.  Today on the broadcast Barbara Rainey joins us to talk about what happens when a man loves a woman.  Stay with us for FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "When A Man Loves A Woman")                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Thanks for joining us on the broadcast, and if you were not here with us yesterday, you're in big trouble is what you are – if you're a man, particularly. Dennis:          That's right. Bob:                I took notes on yesterday's broadcast, and I've got my pencil ready today, because we're learning how a woman views romance.  Dennis:          We're learning how a woman thinks. Bob:                That's right.  And women think differently – that's not wrong – they think differently than men, don't they? Dennis:          They do, and, well, we've got someone in the studio who is definitely a woman.  She is a great woman, she is my wife, and it's really fun to have Barbara back with us on the broadcast again today.  Bob:                Yeah, Barbara, welcome back to the broadcast. Barbara:         Thanks, glad to be here. Bob:                You know, yesterday – and I've been thinkin' about this all night.  I went home and just kinda mulled on this.  It's a little frustrating to know that once I have an idea of how my wife views romance, she's going to change the rules on me – that was one of the lessons from yesterday's broadcast ­– and to be aware that romance is going to get progressively harder as we continue in marriage.  It was easy in courtship, but it gets progressively harder as we're married.  Is that right? Dennis:          Absolutely.   Bob:                Well, that's lousy. Dennis:          Well, you think about – what's God up to here?  He is trying to rid us of selfishness and, if we could, we would kick it in neutral and just coast all the way in to year 50 of the marriage – we wouldn't have to work at it.  It would just be like jumpin' off the edge of a cliff.  We would romantically fall into each other's arms and hopelessly under the control of romance, like gravity, and not have to really work at knowing and loving and caring for and meeting the needs of the other person.  And I think that's why God created marriage – He created it to be redemptive.  He wants me to give up my life for my wife. Barbara:         Exactly. Dennis:          And that's why romance becomes really elusive in a marriage where a man is threatening to leave or a man is sending all kinds of signals that he's not committed, and he's putting fear in the marriage, not casting it out.  1 John, chapter 4, talks about "perfect love casting out all fear," and that's a man's assignment, and a lot of men want their wives to fall in a puddle at their feet and romantic love in a swoon, but they're not willing to give up their hobbies, their interests, their selfish desires for their wives.  Now, how do I know that?  Because I'm a man, and because I've done that. Barbara:         See, when I was thinkin', when you talked about it being redemptive, I was thinking that as you were saying that, and that, ultimately, is what is going to draw a wife to her husband, because when she sees him loving her unconditionally, seeking to understand her and know her and be involved in her life and help her and all of those things, then she is going to respond to him, and as she sees him giving up himself and denying himself and getting rid of his bad habits or putting away his hobbies or whatever for her, those kinds of things are redemptive, and so I think that, in the long haul of things, as we see marriage as being a redemptive relationship, that is the hope of responding to one another.  That is the hope of having romance – is growing together in Christ, denying yourselves for each other, and especially for a husband as the head of the home and the head of his wife, as he will deny himself for her, as he will love her, as he will sacrifice for her, if he will seek to understand her – why she is the way she is and accept her for that and not condemn her for it and not seek to understand her so he can get her to change so he can be happy with her, but all in pursuit of loving her, then she will respond to that ultimately.  Again, it has to be for the purpose, though, that God intended, and that is to love her as Christ loved the church. Dennis:          With no response in return. Barbara:         That's right – with no strings attached.  In other words, he can't say, "I'm going to do this, and then she's going to respond, and then I'll get what I want," because that defeats the purpose of sacrificial love, because then it's not self-sacrificing. Dennis:          And that's the difficulty for a man, because a man usually sets goals, and he is after something, and with romance it may be the sexual dimension of the marriage relationship that he is in pursuit of his wife on, and that's why, as you approach this subject of romance and learning how to speak it as a man to your wife, you've got to understand that you deny your agenda and let the goal be solely that she would feel love; that she would know she is valued, cared for, and cherished, and that she is seeing you nourish her, just as Ephesians 5 talks about. Bob:                But here's the rub in that – because a man is thinking to himself – "The way I'll know that, the way I'll know that she's been loved is she'll respond." Dennis:          Right. Bob:                So if she's not responding, then the message is – Dennis:          "I haven't done a good job loving her." Bob:                I haven't done a good job – Dennis:          – and we've had that conversation. Barbara:         You've said that to me many times. Dennis:          I have. Barbara:         "I must not be loving you right," and it's not just because I'm not responding sexually or in a particular way, but you're sensing from me a lack of response toward you, and it's because of areas in my life that you didn't understand or that you didn't know about me or that I was unable to trust at a particular phase, and so we've talked those things through.  And I think good, solid, marriage relationships need to take the risk of talking those things through, and I needed to hear you say that, and you needed to hear back from me why I was not feeling loved, why I was not feeling like I could respond, and those kinds of conversations are not easy to have.  I mean, they have been difficult conversations that we've had through the years, but because of our commitment to making this thing work is to making it be all that God intended it to be, we have had some of those really tough conversations, and they've not been fun but, in the long run, as we've had them and had them again, they have ultimately been productive in bringing understanding to each of us, but particularly to Dennis in understanding me and in better how to love me. Dennis:          You know, as you were talking, there were really two things that I was thinking about – number one, the process that we have been through of 22 years of dialog, and I mean, at points, fierce dialog, I mean heated dialog, and the second thing is what we're talking about here has come out of something that is most fundamental, and that is a commitment, a bedrock, granite-solid that is immovable. Barbara:         That's right. Dennis:          No escape clauses, no escape hatches, no way out. Barbara:         And no threats. Dennis:          And no threats – never a threat.  This freedom of discussion has come about as a result of two people who are committed – committed, first of all, to Jesus Christ, because without the fear of the Lord and a commitment to Him and setting ourselves apart unto Him first, deciding He will be our Lord and Savior of our lives, our Master, our Redeemer.  He sets the agenda.  It is Him that must be obeyed above all else.  That settles it.  But there have been some evenings that lasted long into the night and some mornings that came early as a result of the dialog.  When we got up in the morning, and we looked at each other, there was no thought of going anywhere.  It was two people deeply committed to Christ, and that commitment was mirrored in our commitment to one another. Bob:                Yeah, those are the late nights or the early mornings, I'll look at Mary Ann, and I'll say, "You are not my enemy," and she'll say, "You are not my enemy," and we'll keep going, we'll keep after it. Dennis:          And I think a lot of young couples that are listening to our broadcast today and who go through life – they think they're entering into real war at these points and, yeah, it's rugged.  You're climbing some craggy cliffs at this point, but you know what?  That's a part of a relationship.  I mean, if it was easy and there were no rocky points, I guess I would have to say, "Hm, I think I may fear for you a little bit.  Have you not had anything hard to work through?"  I mean, I really fear for the couple who say they haven't ever argued, who haven't really differed, who haven't really had to hammer some of these misunderstandings out, because it's in those discussions that you realize how different you are from one another, and what a gift God has given you in your spouse. Bob:                I can imagine that there are women who listen to this discussion and they're going, "Yes, somebody understands what it's like to be a woman.  Somebody understands what women want romantically in marriage," and men listen to it, and they go, "This is much harder work than I ever thought it would be."   Dennis:          That's right. Barbara:         That's right. Dennis:          You go back, and you look at the first year of marriage, and the first year of marriage is like falling off that cliff.  We just kind of fall into each other's arms, and you can't stay away from each other, and you fall helplessly under the control of gravity – romance – and you get married and, all of a sudden, you realize it's not as easy to create that over and over and over again, and then you have children, and you find out it's very difficult, and then you've got health problems and there's job issues and then there are emotional issues and there are extended-family issues, and life becomes cluttered and crowded – Barbara:         – and complicated – Dennis:          That's right – where the Lord Himself is at work in your life whittling away and, at that point, it's where the commitment has to kick in, and two people must say to one another – "I love you, I'm committed, we're goin' for it," because, in the end, they are going to have a real relationship with a real person who knows them.  And I've said this to Barbara, even in the middle of some of our heated discussions over the past 22 years – I would rather have the discussion and have the understanding in one another's lives than to go through life denying that I'm disappointed or denying that we have a disagreement or denying that I've got feelings and, as a man, stuff it and have her think she's winning, and you've got to get some of those things out. But that is a risky feeling because that means the other person has to hear this and must hear it without feeling threatened or like they are being attacked or like the commitment is falling into question.  And that's a real challenge – to let somebody know that you're upset in the middle of the moment but still let them know, "You know what? I'm not goin' anywhere.  I love you, I'm committed to you, but we've got to talk this thing out," and this is where I'd give the man's side of things toward a woman, as a man has tried to love his wife, and he's missed it, and a woman needs to understand that at those points he may be feeling like a failure as a man.  He may have done the best he knows how to do, and he's got to be coached, and the time to coach him is not right after he fails because at that point he's probably feeling like a failure already, anyway.  But write him a letter, somehow communicate to him, but let him know how can he win you and then realize you're going to probably have to re-write that letter again in two or three years after he's – moves it to an A+B=C. Barbara:         Well, and let him know that you appreciate him trying – I mean, even that is worth a lot, because I think a woman who understands that her husband is trying to love her and is trying to understand her, she needs to let him know that she appreciates that and that she values that. Bob:                Do you love Dennis more today than you did 22 years ago? Barbara:         Oh, gosh, yes. Dennis:          I wouldn't go back to that first year of marriage – Bob:                Well, now, wait – with that said, how come it doesn't feel like it?  I mean, back 22 years ago, when all of the feelings were there, was gravity fallin' off a cliff – how come if you loved him so much more 22 years later it doesn't feel like it did then? Barbara:         Well, I think because I know him more, and I know what his love means.  I mean, I know what it's cost him.  I mean, it's cost him a lot to love me, and he has denied himself a lot.  He has given a lot, he's done a lot, he's prayed a lot, he's tried a lot, he's failed a lot, and I know that it's not cheap.   Bob:                Do you think there will come a time in the future when it will feel more like it did at the beginning? Barbara:         I suppose that there's potential for that, just because circumstantially, as the kids are gone and there are less pressures with children and the things that right now are making life stressful for me, and we have more opportunity to spend one-on-one time together, I suppose that there's a potential for that, but I – you know – Bob:                – do you think it will?  Do you think as the years go on, some of that early romantic feeling will re-emerge? Dennis:          I think that we have probably gone through one of the toughest periods, or seasons, of our marriage.  We had six kids in 10 years.  I think those years are among the most challenging.  Now we've just gone through another season where we had four teenagers at one time.  That's another season incredibly challenging – maybe even moreso than the six kids in 10 years, because there were some health issues occurring in that period, as well, that were making that especially challenging, too. But I think, little by little, as the kids leave, and as Barbara's attention can come back again – not solely to me, because her life has never revolved totally around me – but more towards me, I think there will be more room for that to happen, because there will be more time for just the two of us in our relationship and being together.  Because we can't go together a lot of times right now on a plane because she needs to stay here and be a part of the PTA or ministry outreach that the kids are having – or be there just to take care of the kids. Bob:                And it's the couples who, during the time when the kids are growing, who kind of move everything to the back shelf or let the flame die out, who reach that later time, and there's nothin' there. Dennis:          Yeah, and that's why this series on romance is so important – I don't think the Christian community is talking enough about romance.  I mean, it is important to a marriage.  Now, we've talked about how difficult it is to achieve, and it's elusive, and it's hard, and it's difficult, and you can't be guaranteed of it.  Now make it important.  Now it almost sounds like a crazy maker, but I think God wants us to have fire in our friendship with our spouse, and I think romance is that fire that flows out of that commitment and that friendship, and I think we've got to pursue one another because I think God put it within us both to long for it, to want it.  And in the process of longing for that, for a man, I think it provides the motivation to pursue his wife.  I think God gave it to him to do that so that he would pursue her.  Otherwise, if a man didn't feel that, what would there be to draw the man toward his wife?  Toward giving up his agenda for her and his rights?  I would have to say I don't know what the motivation would be, other than just some super-spiritual definition. Barbara:         Yeah, just obey the command. Dennis:          And that just sounds bland.  Who wants to experience that?  Barbara and I have anything other than a boring marriage.  Is there a lot of romance in our relationship?  Yes.  But is it the kind that Hollywood depicts on the screen?  She's shaking her head no.  No, it's not.  It's not.  It is much deeper than that.  I mean, that's shallow. Barbara:         The relationship and the commitment and the knowing one another and growing closer and closer together – that's what defines the romance, and that's what it blossoms out of – is that relationship. Bob:                Well, have a great weekend.  Be back with us on Monday because Barbara's going to join us again, and we're going through Dennis Rainey's Top 10 list of romantic ideas, right – the Top 10 most romantic ideas in America. Dennis:          That's right.  Are we going to give any of 'em today just to tease 'em? Bob:                No, no, no – they've got to tune in Monday.  This is information that you got from research that we did – Dennis:          – that's right.  We surveyed over 800 couples.  So this is the best of the best, Bob. Bob:                Well, doing my best Casey Kasem impression – "we won't quit 'til we get all the way to Number 1."  That's Casey Kasem.  Come on, you remember American Top 40, don't you? Dennis:          Oh, yeah. Bob:                Yeah, that's on Monday's edition of FamilyLife Today.  Join us for that.  Our engineer is Mark Whitlock, our host Dennis Rainey – Dennis:          Do you have these out-of-body experiences often? Bob:                I'm Casey Kasem, we'll see you Monday on FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "When A Man Loves A Woman")                         FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  __________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, could   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved.www.FamilyLife.com     

FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic Marriage Day 2 of 8 Guest:                             Barbara Rainey From the Series:          Woman's View of Romance________________________________________________________________­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today.  Your host is the executive director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey.  I'm Bob Lepine, and today we'll learn from Barbara Rainey just how a woman does view romance on FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "How To Handle A Woman")                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Thanks for joining us on the broadcast. Dennis:          You know, Bob, because of who we have in the studio today, I've decided I'm just going to kind of push back from the microphone and get my notepad out and take notes. Bob:                Is that right? Dennis:          That's right.  I really feel, in due respect for my wife, she's an authority on the subject she's about to speak on and, in fact, you know what I'd like to do?  You can ask the questions – because of the nature of what we're going to talk about, it's pretty delicate, and for me to ask my wife these questions, I mean, this could get a little interesting.  So – Bob:                – well, I'm lookin' forward to this and, Barbara, by the way, welcome back to the broadcast.  It's great to have you on the program. Barbara:         You're welcome, it's good to be here. Bob:                And, Dennis, I'm going to get right to it, because we're going to be talking over the next couple of days about how a wife views romance, and I think the thing that husbands want to know, the thing that kind of puzzles us in this whole deal is what is it that we can do that causes our wives to go, "Ahhhh."  You know, just kind of look at us and melt.  I mean, does that happen with a woman? Barbara:         Well, I think it does, but I don't think it's necessarily a particular situation, because the things that are romantic to me aren't necessarily a situation or an act or a thing or a gift – all of those things communicate romance – but the particular situation isn't necessarily going to produce what you're talkin' about, which is what we've talked about a lot.                         You know what I think it is, I think it is the relationship that she has with her husband, and I have been reminded again, as I've been interacting with my family, and I have seen where I have come from and how desperately dysfunctional it was, and I'm thinking, "I am married to a man who has absolutely been a savior to me because of the love and acceptance and all that kind of stuff, and I have been attracted to him because I'm realizing what he's done for me relationally.  So it's not like he thought, "I want to romance my wife, so I'm going to go buy her flowers, and so A+B=C, and this is the reaction and the response I'm going to get," although I think that's very romantic, and I love it when he does those kinds of things, because that communicates sacrifice, it communicates he cares about me, he's willing to go out of his way, he's willing to spend money that, you know, we may or may not have in the budget for that – those are all things that are very meaningful, but it may not necessarily produce the desired response.  In other words, if he's doing it to produce the response, he is very often going to be disappointed.                         That's why I go back to the relationship – to me, it's the relationship that is ultimately going to fuel the romance.  And so when you ask what I thought of, my thought was – was the day that we spent together in September, and he took a whole day off work just to spend it with me to do what I wanted to do.  We worked in the yard, and we got in the car in the afternoon, we drove for four or five hours and just kinda took off, and we stopped when we wanted to, and we did what we wanted to.  I mean, it was like, in a sense, being on a honeymoon or being in those early days of marriage when we didn't have any responsibilities, and that was more fun, but it was romantic in the sense that it was just the two of us, and we could do what we wanted, and we focused on each other, and we didn't have the demands and the – I mean – we had to come back to it, but, you know – just for however many hours it was, it was really a treat to have him all to myself and to have him say, "I will do whatever you want to do," and we talked all day long.  It was wonderful.  It wasn't romantic in the typical sense of sweep her off her feet, carry her to the castle, and they lived happily ever after. Bob:                You know, as you said, the A+B+C, I thought – men want it to be algebra. Barbara:         That's right. Dennis:          They do, and therein lies the frustration as well as the intrigue. Bob:                And women don't want it to be algebra.  It's gotta be – Dennis:          ­– no, they don't want a book. Barbara:         But they don't want to be figured out.  See, I don't think women want to be figured out, because if they feel like they're figured out, then they feel like they're controlled and they're had, and they don't want to be figured out.  I think they want him to love her and be willing to pursue her and to continue to know who she is, because she's not that simple.  I think women don't want to feel like they're that easy to figure out and, "Oh, he's got me pegged," and A+B+=C, and it's going to always work that way.  I think she wants to be more complex and more intriguing and more – Dennis:          – of a challenge. Barbara:         Yes. Dennis:          Because if the man goes A+B=C, and he knows that's the way it works, then she knows – Barbara:         – that he'll do A+B=C every time, and that gets boring, and I think she would also begin to fear that she'd be taken advantage of and, see, women don't want to be taken advantage of, and I don't mean taken advantage of sexually.  I mean to be taken advantage of in any way – just assuming on the relationship and therefore there's no more motivation to continue to pursue, there's no more motivation – because if you've got it figure out, then why work at it? Bob:                So if a man says to himself, "I would like" – he's thinking, it's, you know, here it is Thursday, "I'd like a week from Friday to be a romantic evening together for me and my wife."  What can I do to foster that?  How can I create a romantic evening, something that will speak romance to her?  You're saying "Good luck, buster." Barbara:         No, I don't think it's that hopeless.  I think that a man can make some plans.  I think he can make dinner reservations.  I think he can bring her flowers.  I think he can do some things that are creative that will communicate to her that she's special, she's unique – "I love you, I'm willing to sacrifice for you."  But he needs to do it without the expectation of whatever it is his purpose is, because – see, the verse that I go back to all the time, as we've had these talks through the years – is I go back to the verse that says, "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church."  And Christ gave himself up for the church.  He denied Himself, and I think when a woman sees that her husband is denying himself for her, she responds to that, just as the church then responds to Christ, and I think she sees that sacrifice, and she understands that it's because of love.                         But when a woman sees a husband doing that for what appears to her to be his own personal need, then she feels somewhat manipulated or somewhat controlled or less valued.   Dennis:          Used. Barbara:         Used – I mean, I think it complicates things, because I think that her ultimate need is to be loved as Christ loved the church and be loved unconditionally, and I think when she feels that, then she understands that commitment and that trust, then she can respond to her husband as he wants her to and as he needs her to, but it's just not as easy as bring home flowers and light the candles and have a dinner and A+B=C. Bob:                But I'm not even talking about her responding to his need necessarily.  I'm saying – let's say a husband with the purest of motives says, "I want you to feel special next Friday night, so I'm going to get the sitter, I'm going to take you out to dinner," and he's out with her, and it's just not happening for her – for whatever reason, she doesn't feel special, she doesn't feel warm toward him.  Maybe it's been a bad week.  Well, the husband is sittin' there goin', "This was a waste of time and money, because she doesn't feel special.  What do I do now?  I tried the babysitter and the dinner thing, and that doesn't work." Barbara:         Well, it may not work because of the circumstances but, see, he needs to understand his role is to continue to pursue his wife, and he may need to say to her, "I'm sorry this didn't work out.  I just want you to know I love you, anyway, and this may not have been good timing on my part" or whatever, but I think that part of the challenge for a husband is to understand his wife and understand what communicates love to her and figure that out and then do that. Dennis:          And if what communicates love to her is surprise, then that may be what you've got to heighten in that situation.  I mean, just setting down and spending some time – having fun over nothing of any significance but just spending time together and maybe talking as we play a game. Barbara:         Well, the reason that is helpful for us is because we sort of exit the world of reality in a sense and so often it's the pressures of real life and all the responsibility that we feel, especially as parents, it's such an ongoing thing, and I think that suppresses a relationship.  It suppresses romance, it suppresses interest in one another in doing something that is frivolous.  And I think "frivolous" is a good word that needs to be involved in the discussion of romance, because it's often the frivolous things, which we think of, naturally, as flowers and candy and dinners, but it could be something like taking an hour in the evening, when you really need to be doing the laundry, or you really need to be doing something else, and the two of you sit down and play a game of spades or something.  So I don't think it has to be expensive, it doesn't have to be planned out necessarily.  It can be impulsive. Dennis:          It's those things that we did when we dated, and a lot of things we did when we dated were dumb things. Barbara:         Well, and they didn't cost much because most of us didn't have money when we dated – so a lot of times we did things like picnics.  You and I did that a lot. Dennis:          And I think what happens when you get married is you fall into a rut, and you stop pursuing your spouse – men do – they think they've got her all figured out, and that insults the wife when she begins to feel like it is A+B=C, and then what he's gotta do is, he's got to pull back and go, "Now, wait a second, how can I court my wife?"  And even I find it's interesting, when Bob asked you what's the most romantic thing I've done recently in our marriage that you would pick a day where there was no – what I would call "enchanted moment" – of carrying her off to the castle.  It was a day of relationship and a time of friendship – Barbara:         – and it was focused on me and what I enjoy, and that might not be what you would enjoy, and that's what made it – that's what made it special, because that might not have been what you would have picked, but that communicated to me that you were willing to deny yourself and to do whatever I wanted, and that speaks volumes. Dennis:          What would you say to the husband who doesn't understand his wife?  He's not a good student.  He perhaps has heard 1 Peter 3:7 – "Husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way," and yet, let's say, he's been married six to 10 years, and he still hasn't gotten it. Barbara:         Well, I think it's okay.  I really think that it is a long, lifetime process, and I – Dennis:          – I'm glad you said that, because I haven't gotten it in (inaudible) – [crosstalk]  Barbara:         – well, I just think – you know, I just think that you and I, in our marriage, have continued to discover things about each other, and we've been married over 20 years now, and I feel that way, and I know you have felt that way, and I think it's just a lifetime process that God has us on of getting to know each other and, as we're changing, we're going to find out new things about each other.  So I would just encourage husbands to not give up and not lose heart and instead be encouraged by the challenge, because you wouldn't want to marry somebody, really, if it came right down to it, if you could figure her out that quickly.  I mean, I would think that a man would want – that that would be a challenge to him, to his manhood, to think, "You know, there's a lot about this woman that I don't know, and I've got years ahead to figure it out and, God, help me do this." Bob:                Well, and you've hit on a big thing, because it is a challenge to his manhood, and if he's going for long periods of time feeling like, "I'm not winning at this," he's feeling like less of a man if his wife is not responding to anything that he is doing to try to spark romance and, again, we're not just talking about how he views romance, but he's just trying to make her feel warm and appreciated and affectionate. Barbara:         Mm-hm. Bob:                And he doesn't seem to be getting it, and he goes, "This is a challenge to my manhood.  What's wrong with me?"   Barbara:         I think part of it is understanding that a woman is not going to be easy to understand, and I think he needs to pursue her and say, "What can I do to let you know that I love you?  What communicates love to you?"  And that's a question that Dennis has asked me lots of times and sometimes I don't even want to talk about it, which isn't very nice, I suppose, but I think that's a good question for husbands to ask their wives  -- what communicates love to you?  What is it?  And she may not have an answer right off the top of her head.  She probably hasn't had time to think about it, but that communicates that he is interested in meeting her where she is with her needs, and I think that will begin to open up some dialog, it will begin to communicate to her that he really cares about her, and he's interested in her, and that's how you gain understanding – is by talking and asking and pursuing and spending time together, and it isn't going to come real easy.  It's going to take some time, though. Dennis:          And there's another side to that question, too, that you've taught me – because sometimes what communicates love to you, you may not feel loved as a result of what I've done, and that's a tremendous puzzle to us, as men. Bob:                I'm not following – what are you talking about? Dennis:          Well, I think, as men, we find out what communicates love to our wives as we create this checklist again – A+B=C. Barbara:         Again – yeah, right. Dennis:          And we're doing the things where she should feel loved, and the reason she's not feeling loved is because she senses we're pushin' the buttons, and our heart's not in it.  Am I saying that right, honey? Barbara:         Well, I think that's right.  I think anytime she feels like she's been figured out, you've had it.  That sounds awful, it really does. Bob:                But it's true, isn't it? Barbara:         Well, I really do think it's true, I really do, and it's not that she doesn't want those things done again.  It's not that you bring her flowers two or three times, and she loves it, and then, all of a sudden, she feels like she's been pegged, and she doesn't ever want be gettin' it for the rest of her life, but I think that there needs to be variety, there needs to be creativity.  She needs to feel like he's thinking about her in different ways at different times and not just the same old prescribed pattern. Bob:                It sounds like there is an inherent distrust of men by women that you're always suspicious of our motives. Barbara:         Well, it may be, I don't know. Bob:                Well, maybe – Dennis:          – I think there is. Barbara:         Well, I don't know that you can say that about all women.  That's why I said there may be.  I think that, for sure, there is an inherent distrust in very many women today.  There have been too many abuses, whether it's happened to a particular woman or she's just heard about it.  There have just been too many stories, too many actual things that have happened for women not to be just a little bit skeptical.                          Now, I don't want to say that's true across the board, and I think there's varying degrees of mistrust, but I do think that is an element in many, many women's thinking.  So I do think that is true in many cases. Bob:                Well, if you feel secure in terms of Dennis's commitment to you, right, that's unquestioned.  You know he is committed to you. Barbara:         That's right. Bob:                Is trust still an issue? Barbara:         Well, see, I think that the commitment has to be tested.  See, I think women – it's like – years ago I remember Dennis sayin', you know, that he loved me.  I'd say, "Well, I know you do, but you're supposed to.  You're my husband."  You know, and it's almost like we begin to feel, after a while, that he has to say these things or he has to do these things because he's stuck with you.  So, in a sense, I think a woman wants to say, "Okay, I know you're committed to me, but are you glad you're committed to me?  Would you do this again?" Dennis:          Prove it. Barbara:         Yeah, I mean, do you really love me?  I mean, you say you do, but do you really love me?  I think it needs to be – I think, as she grows older and her life changes, there are so many issues that she continually faces as her life changes, that she needs to see, again and again, from her husband, "Yes, I'm committed to you; yes, I would marry you all over again; yes, I love you," and then he needs to demonstrate that in different ways.                         So, yes, I know Dennis is committed to me, but I have needed for him to prove that to me in many different ways at many different times.  And on the issue of trust, I think that is a parallel issue with commitment.  Yes, I trust him, but I've needed to see that he is worthy of trusting – that I can trust him with my life.  And I believed that at the beginning, when we first got married, but just as I've had to sort of test out the commitment through the years, I've sort of had to test out that trust factor, too, if that makes sense. Bob:                Yeah, you know, Dennis, it sounds like one of the things Barbara is saying here is that there will be seasons in a marriage, where, in spite of the awareness of the commitment, you know that you know that your husband is committed, but you feel like he's committed out of duty or obligation, not because he really wants to be committed to you, and those can be difficult seasons for romance. Dennis:          Yeah, but what you gotta do is move on through those, and what a husband especially needs to know is that he needs to be communicating that he is worthy of his wife's trust, and he needs to communicate to her that he loves her for who she is, not for what she can do for him, and what a wife is really expressing during those times, at least what Barbara has communicated to me, is that she just needs to feel like I love her, Barbara Rainey, for who she is as a woman and just set her apart from all other women in the world. Bob:                Well, on tomorrow's broadcast, more insight from your wife, Barbara, Dennis, on how men can understand a woman's view of romance, and I hope you can join us for that.                         Our engineer is Mark Whitlock, our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "How To Handle A Woman")                         FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  __________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com     

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Being His Helper Guest:                        Barbara Rainey                                                        From the series:       Letters to My Daughters (Day 3 of 3)                Bob: The Bible calls women to be helpers to their husbands; but as Barbara Rainey points out—sometimes, when you're trying to help, you're not helping. Barbara: I think, in most women's hearts, we do start out—in the early years, especially—genuinely wanting to help. It switches somewhere, along the line—to becoming a control issue, to becoming a management issue, to becoming a critical issue—where I am being his mother and not his helper. I'm being his parent and not his partner. I think that is the lesson—it's that we, as women / we, as wives, need to be aware and to recognize when it does and to say: “Oh yeah! I need to be his friend. We're peers, we're equals, we're teammates; and we can work this out together,” rather than it—letting it become this great obstacle. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, February 17th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. How can a wife be a helper to her husband?  1:00 We're going to explore that today with Barbara Rainey. Stay tuned.   And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I had somebody share something with me a long time ago. I always thought this was interesting—they were talking about the ministry of the Holy Spirit in our life. They were saying that the word for the Holy Spirit in the Bible is the word, Paraclete. Dennis: Right. Bob: What they said was: “There's a difference between a paraclete and a parasite. A parasite is something that attaches itself to you and just sucks the life out of you.” Dennis: Right. Bob: “A paraclete is something that attaches itself to you and pours life into you.” I mean, that's always stuck with me. I've thought, “That's not only true of our relationship with the Holy Spirit—He does attach Himself to us and pours life into us—but all of our relationships tend to be parasite or paraclete relationships”; don't you think? Dennis: They do. It's interesting—  2:00 —that in the Scripture, God refers to Himself as our Helper. I think the Holy Spirit is our Helper. Bob: Yes. Dennis: He comforts us / He gives us the power to live the Christian life. Bob: Jesus said, “I will send another Helper,”—indicating that He had been the Helper. So Helper really—God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit—are all identified as “Helper.” Dennis: That's right; but if you go all the way back to the beginning of the Bible, the first use of the word, “helper,” is not referring to God but referring to the woman that God made for man. Bob: Yes. Dennis: I know, for Barbara, who joins us again on FamilyLife Today—Barbara, welcome back. Barbara: Thank you. Dennis: She's written a book that is—was first written for our daughters, as they married, and our daughters-in-law as they married our sons. One of the first sections of the book talks about the role of being a helper. You believe that's important; don't you? Barbara: I do. I think that we have come to think of helper in a more negative sense——more as a servant.  3:00 Yet, when you go back to the very beginning—as you were just talking about a minute ago—and realize that God used that term to describe the woman / to describe Eve when He made her. He called her helper before the whole thing broke down and fell apart in the Garden. It wasn't Plan B—it wasn't: “Oh, well; now, that you've made mistakes, and I'm kicking you out of the Garden, and you're going to have to start living in a different place—now, you have to be the helper,”—it was helper from the very beginning.  If we really focus on that, and think about that, it means that I was made, as a female, to be a helper—I was built for that, I was fashioned for that, I was designed for that. It's not a second thought / it's not Plan B—it's not an afterthought. It's intuitive in who I am, as a female, to be helper in the same way that God is helper to us. Bob: You say, in the book—when you got married, you say, “I was eager to begin being my husband's helper; but beyond cooking for him and doing our laundry, I honestly had no idea what the concept / the assignment really meant.”  4:00 Barbara: Yes.  Bob: I think there are a lot of women who, when they hear the term, “helper,”—they think, “What is it if it's not cooking, cleaning, and laundry?” Barbara: Those things are a part of what each individual couple works out—who does the cooking / who does the laundry. All of that is a creative blend of the two that are in the marriage unit. And often— Bob: Who does the cooking at your house? I'm just curious— Barbara: Well, you know, right now, he does! [Laughter] Dennis: But for the past 35 years, she did! [Laughter] Barbara: Yes. Bob: You've given— Dennis: So I've got—I've got a long time—[Laughter] Barbara: I delegated! [Laughter] Dennis: —I've got a long time to catch up in this deal. Barbara: Yes; yes. We have traded places on that one; but the point is—is that, oftentimes and through the centuries, most women have done those tasks in the marriage relationship. That isn't really what helper is all about. Helper is far greater than that—it's me completing my husband.  5:00 It's me—and who I am, and the way God made me, as a woman and as an individual—completing him, making him better than he is on his own or making him more complete / more fulfilled. It's me helping him, though the years, become all God intended for him to be. It's far more of a person-building / it's far more of a relationship-building concept than it is just tasks around the house, which is what we've relegated it to. Bob: The phrase I used—the paraclete—to attach yourself to him and pour life into him. Barbara: Yes. Bob: There really is something that a wife can—she can pour life into her husband; can't she? Barbara: Oh, absolutely. That's why I have written about it in this section—about the example that the Holy Spirit is to us because the Holy Spirit does give us life. I think, in ways that we, as women, don't realize—we give life to our husbands. I think the analogies between the two are great. Bob: You're not saying your role is to be the Holy Spirit to your husband. 6:00 Barbara: No. [Laughter] I am not to be the Holy Spirit, and convict him of sin, any more than he is to be Jesus Christ for me. But we model— Bob: But you can learn; yes. Barbara: Yes. Bob: Yes. Barbara: —he models and imitates what Christ did in His sacrifice—and I can model my helping and being a helper after what the Holy Spirit does for us. Dennis: Before we talk about what it means to truly be the helper, one of the things you believe strongly that it's not—is it's not being your husband's mother. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Explain what you mean by that. Barbara: I think what happens is—when we women have children and we become, not just wife, but wife and mother—there are a lot of things that we do, as mother, that are helping tasks. We're constantly helping our children get dressed, we're helping learn to tie their shoes, we help them learn to read, we help them with their homework, we help them get dressed, we help them in relationship issues when they've got friends and they've got problems in elementary school, junior high, and high school.  7:00  We are very much a helper with our children, but it's an authoritative kind of helper. I'm the one in charge, and my child is to follow me. What happens so often in marriage is—that we wives forget sometimes to switch from being helper as mother to being helper as wife—and they're very different. I'm not an authority with my husband / I'm not his teacher. For me to help him as if I am his teacher and he is to be my pupil—that's backwards / that's wrong. That's not the kind of relationship that I'm supposed to have with him as a helper. Bob: And you're supposed to be able to switch gears on the fly on that kind of a deal? Barbara: Yes, I think so; but that's where it gets tricky. [Laughter] Bob: So what does it look like if it's not the kind of helper you would be with a kindergartener or a seventh grader? How is it different? Barbara: It's different because I have a peer-relationship with my husband—we are equals. I am not a peer with my child—I'm an authority with my child. That's the fundamental difference.  8:00 For instance, Dennis and I had a conversation not too long ago. I don't know if you'll remember this—but we recently remodeled our living room. We got our couch recovered—because the kids are gone, we got it recovered in a very light color fabric, which I would have never done when we were raising kids. Now, that it's just the two of us—we can handle this. Not long after we had finished the remodeling, we had gotten the couch back from being reupholstered. We were eating, and Dennis wanted to eat in the living room. He plopped down on the couch— Bob: I know where this is going. [Laughter] Barbara: —with his plate. Bob: Yes! [Laughter] Dennis: Never happened at your place; has it Bob? Bob: It wasn't spaghetti; was it? I hope it wasn't spaghetti. Barbara: No, it wasn't spaghetti—I don't know what it was. As we sat there, I'm thinking: “This isn't going to work. This isn't what I had in mind. I don't think this is a really good place to be eating our dinner.” We began—we had a conversation; and I said, “What would you think about always eating over there at the table?” He said, “I really would like to eat and watch TV some.”  9:00 Anyway, the point is that we talked through: “Where would be an acceptable place for him to eat, in the living room, where he could watch TV—watch a football game on Saturday afternoon.” We decided the couch is not where he would eat. He would eat over there in the chair—it's on a part of the carpet that doesn't stain as easily as the part in front of the couch does. Dennis: Actually, what she encouraged me to do is run— Barbara: So are you saying you don't remember it this way? [Laughter] Dennis: —run an extension cord outside and eat it in a lawn chair in front of the TV in the yard. [Laughter] Barbara: Where there is a hose! [Laughter] Bob: You didn't put a bib on him or [Laughter] say, “You sit in this chair.” Dennis: We were just talking about being a mother; were we not? Barbara: That's right; we were! Bob: That's what—so this is an illustration of how you help your husband? [Laughter] Barbara: Well, it's an illustration of how I—yes, how I help him [Laughter] eat like an adult— Dennis: We worked it out. Barbara: We did! Dennis: We worked it out, and it is okay. I do think the point is—if you listen carefully to the illustration Barbara gave, we had a discussion. Barbara: —as peers.  10:00 I wasn't telling you that you couldn't eat on the couch—I said: “Would you be willing to eat over there?” / “Could we work out a compromise?” was the gist of the conversation. Dennis: What I'd want a man to hear in the midst of this is that he has a very important assignment—to respect his wife, and her opinion, and her values, and what she's about at that point—not just do what he wants to do. Philippians 2—we've quoted that many times, here on FamilyLife Today: “…not merely looking out for your own interests but for the interests of others.” Bob: Yes. Dennis: These little confrontations we're talking about here are a clash of values. They don't have to turn out and become where the wife ends up being the mother of the husband. Bob: You tell about, how in your marriage—when you are travelling, back in the days before cell phones— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —you used to mother your husband in the airport? Barbara: Yes. You know what's interesting about this dilemma for women is—I don't think we start out with that kind of an attitude.  11:00 I think we genuinely/sincerely want to help. It just sort of evolves into a more parental attitude without even trying. For instance, in the airport, when we used to travel before cell phones, Dennis would always want to make good use of his time. He'd walk across the area to another gate—wherever there happened to be a pay phone—and he would start making phone calls. I would sit in the waiting area and watch as every last passenger boarded the plane. They were about to close the door, and he was still on the phone. Initially, I remember thinking: “He must not know that they're boarding the plane. He must have not been paying attention.” I would get up and go over, and motion at the gate, and motion at my watch. He'd go, “I know; I know.” He'd get off the phone, and we'd get on the plane. Then the next time I would do the same thing. After a while, I started to become irritated because I thought, “I have to remind him all the time.” Dennis: How many flights have we missed? Barbara: Well, that's the point!  We never missed a flight because you were on the phone! [Laughter]  12:00 But initially, I genuinely thought he didn't know what time it was and that he didn't—he was so engaged in the phone call that he didn't realize they were boarding. I wanted to help so that we didn't miss the flight. Over time, it became more of a parental attitude on my part. Dennis: I was going to say—I was going to say that—parental. Barbara: It really was because I thought: ‘What's the deal? Why can't he get off the phone, and we can board with everybody else?” Then I started becoming critical. So my point is—is that I think what we struggle with, as wives, is not necessarily starting out with a condescending attitude or a parental attitude. We really, genuinely want to help from our hearts; but it just sort of goes downhill sometimes. Dennis: Let me take that, as an illustration though, and just ask this question: “How can a wife, in a situation like that, be a true helper?” The point here is—you're not going to answer that question in the heat of the moment. You do it some other time when you're not travelling.  13:00 The wife just simply says to her husband, “When everybody's boarding, what would you like me to do?” Barbara: Exactly—which is what I finally did. Dennis: “Would you like me to come over and let you know, or am I to just trust you with that?” At that point— Barbara: Yes. Dennis: —it is two peers respecting each other—and the husband feeling like he's being trusted.  Barbara: Yes. Dennis: He may—as I did—he may want her help. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Okay? That's good! You're working as teammates at that point. I think, at critical times like this—we allow these little rough spots like this to become major disagreements—at which we have a big argument and it ends up ruining the trip. Bob: As I read through this part of the book, I have to confess to you that I think one of the challenges that I think a lot of wives / a lot of women struggle with is the issue of control. Barbara: Yes; definitely.  Bob: “I want to be in control of my environment. I feel safer if I'm in control of things.” Barbara: No question; no question.  14:00 Bob: So this impulse to want to be a helper—sometimes is not, “I want to help my husband,”—it's: “I want to manage my husband— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —“and control my husband because I feel more comfortable.” You're waving and saying, “Everybody else is boarding,”—not because you're trying to help him—but because you're getting nervous, and you'd like to get on the plane. Barbara: Yes. Bob: And he needs to hurry up and get on there with you. Barbara: No question. Bob: It's not helping—it's controlling.  Barbara:And that's why I'm saying it's a difficult thing because I think, in most women's hearts, we do start out—in the early years, especially—genuinely wanting to help. It switches somewhere, along the line—to becoming a control issue, to becoming a management issue, to becoming a critical issue—where I am being his mother and not his helper. I'm being his parent and not his partner. I think that is the lesson is that we, as women / we, as wives, need to be aware—that that shift happens—and to recognize when it does and to say: “Oh yeah; I'm being his mother, not his partner.  15:00 “I need to be his friend—we're peers, we're equals, we're teammates—and we can work this out together rather than letting it become this great obstacle. Dennis: So for wives—as they look at the subject of being a helper to their husbands—here's the question I would encourage every wife to ask her husband: “Sweetheart, how can I be a better, customized helper to you?” because I really believe, Bob, if we could somehow zoom back and look at an individual marriage through God's eyes—I believe He's made the husband and the wife for one another. He made them with differences—with unique strengths, and abilities, and weaknesses—so they need each other and so they complement each other. I think many couples can live a lifetime and never ever understand how the wife— specifically: “In what areas / how can she be a customized helper for her husband?”—  16:00 —and then take good notes at what he says. Barbara: Well, and that's what I—one of the points that I really am hoping will come across in this book to my daughters—I want them to see the beauty that God has made in marriage—that the way I help my husband is different than the way Mary Ann helps you, Bob—   Bob: Yes. Barbara: —different than the way my daughters will help their husbands because my husband needs something different than you would need. That's the wonderful thing about marriage. God gave us very few rules for marriage—He gave us some guidelines to run on / some very specific things in Scripture—but He didn't give us a hundred things to do in marriage. He gave us very few. Within that wonderful definition of marriage that we get out of Scripture, there is endless ability to be creative because we are two unique people. God wants us to design a unique relationship between the two of us. 17:00 Bob: Okay; I've got two questions. The first is: “There are some wives who are hearing this and going, ‘Well shouldn't this thing work both ways? I mean, why am I the helper? Shouldn't he be the helper to me too? Aren't we supposed to help one another?'” You're talking about teammates—so you're the helper, but he's the helper too; right?  Barbara: Yes; I think Dennis should answer that, but I think the real bottom line is—is that God has called men to serve. In that serving—of the husband serving the wife—that's how he helps. He's not given the title of helper, but he's given the title of servant-leader. That's how he would help his wife. Dennis: Yes, I think Barbara mentioned the key term there—servant-leader. A husband is given the title, in Ephesians 5, “head,”—he is the authority. The buck does stop with him. He has responsibility to deny himself, to love his wife as Christ loved the church, and to be—as Barbara said—a servant-leader of her and meeting her needs. I don't think a husband—in the sense of what we're talking about a wife being a helper—is to be his wife's helper.  18:00 I think he's to be—the servant, the lover, the leader, the nourisher, the cherisher of her soul, and to look out for her best interest, and her horizons, and maximize her life—but he's got a different assignment— Bob: Yes. Dennis: —with her than she has with him.  Bob: Well, in fact, I was meeting with a group of guys recently. We were talking about this designation of servant-leader. We all kind of agreed that maybe it would be better to refer to husbands as shepherd-leaders than servant-leaders because the servant idea can—can almost make it sound like: “As long as your wife's happy, you're doing what you need to do.” That's the trap I fell in, for years—was to think, ‘As long as Mary Ann's happy— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —“then I'm—I'm being what God wants me to be.” It's not necessarily her momentary happiness that I should be focused on— Dennis: No, it's not. Bob: —it's the shepherding and leading of her—wisely, gently, carefully, feeding, guiding, caring for her. 19:00 Dennis: —protecting. Bob: That's right. So it was a—it was a helpful metaphor— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —to say: “A man should be a shepherd-leader and a wife should respond and should help in that process.” My other question, though, for you is for the wife who would say: “If I went to my husband and said, ‘How would you like me to be your customized helper?' he would say, ‘Get off my back and leave me alone! Just let me do what I want to do.'” Dennis: But that's not a good answer. Bob: So does she tell him that?! Barbara: Well, I think she frames the question a little differently. I think she says, in a particular situation—like, when Dennis and I were travelling, I could have said to him, “Is there anything I can do to help you so that we can get on our flight on time?” rather than some generic question that he might not be able to put words to. It'd be much better if she said, “How can I help you when we are…” or “…when this situation happens?” or “How can I encourage you when you've had a bad day at work?” If she will be specific, then she might get a more specific answer that would be easier for her to perhaps know what to do with. 20:00      Bob: But if he says, “Just leave me alone,” how does she respond to that? Barbara: I think she needs to say: “What do you mean by leave you alone? What do you want me to back off on?” I think—if she really, genuinely wants to be a better helper—then she needs to ask some follow-up questions / find out: “What does he mean by that?” Bob: Yes. Dennis: I think, over a lifetime together, this is a great question to interact about. In fact, we'd been married for 38 years before the thought ever occurred to me. I was talking to Barbara about her book—just to explore a little bit: “What have we learned in our marriage about how you are a great helper to me?” One of the areas she is—is she's a wise counsellor.  Bob: Yes. Dennis: She gives me the perspective that I most count on for my life, from a human perspective. Now, I go to the Bible for my guidance and to guide in prayer; but she's my closest friend—knows me well, looking out for my best interest in multiple ways.  21:00 I go to her for her advice, her counsel, and her perspective. She is a great— Bob: Yes. Dennis: —helper in that area. I think, for a man, if he can just pull back and ask—if you've been married 10 years: “How is your wife a great helper to you? How do you see her having been designed by God to help you?” Another way for Barbara is—and I told her this—she brings great beauty to my life. She's an artist—she likes design / she notices things years before I do. [Laughter] Then she points them out and I enjoy them. Because of her in my life—not only is she beautiful—but she brings beauty to my life and an appreciation for the aesthetics that God has created. Bob: She keeps the sofa looking beautiful, too, by assigning you a place to sit. [Laughter] Barbara: Now Bob, I didn't assign now— Dennis: —in the yard!  Barbara: —we agreed! 22:00 Dennis: —in the garage, with the hose! [Laughter] Bob: The thing is—this is a part of the reality of marriage that you guys have, after more than 40 years of being together—you've figured out how to make all of this work. Barbara—now for you to be speaking into the lives of younger women / younger wives—I'm really excited about the book that is now available: Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife by Barbara Rainey. You can go online at FamilyLifeToday.com in order to request a copy of the book, or you can call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the title is Letters to My Daughters by Barbara Rainey. Order, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call us at 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” By the way, I should have you give the shout-out today to some friends of ours, Keith and Mary Kirkland, celebrating their 15th wedding anniversary today.  23:00 They live in Montgomery, Alabama—listen to WLBF. Mary is a big fan of the resources you've created for homes in the Ever Thine Home collection. They've got the Easter banner, they've got Adorenaments, they've got your “Behold the Lamb” resource—I mean, she's got a bunch of stuff in her home, and they're friends of this ministry. They've helped support the work that FamilyLife Today is doing. If it weren't for friends, like the Kirklands, FamilyLife Today couldn't do all that we do. We're listener-supported, and your donations make this ministry possible.  During this month, we are hoping that God would raise up, from among our listeners, 20 new families in every state—who would be brand-new Legacy Partners—monthly donors, supporting the ministry of FamilyLife Today. We'd like to ask you to consider being one of the families in your state helping to keep FamilyLife Today on the air in this community.  24:00 You can become a Legacy Partner by going to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link that says, “DONATE,”—the information's available there—or call 1-800- FL-TODAY and say, “I want to become a Legacy Partner.” We hope to hear from you. We hope you can join us back tomorrow when we're going to talk about what's at the heart of being a godly woman. Priscilla Shirer is going to join us, and we'll talk about a godly woman's priorities tomorrow. Hope you can be here for that.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Leaning on God Guest:                        Barbara Rainey                                            From the series:       Letters to My Daughters (Day 2 of 3)                Bob: Barbara Rainey says there's a lesson that every couple needs to learn really early in their marriage. The lesson is this: “You can't do this on your own.” Barbara: The bottom line is going to be the same for the rest of your life; and that is, when God brings you to a place that you realize you cannot do this thing called marriage, you can't do this thing called mothering, you can't even do the Christian life on your own—that you come to Him and you say: “I give up. I surrender—Your will, not mine.” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, February 16th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll find out today just how important it is to have a spiritual foundation poured in your marriage if you're going to try to build a home on top of it. Stay tuned.  And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I'm curious—did you think, when you and Barbara, in the summer of 1972—I guess September of '72 / late summer; right? Dennis: Right; right. Bob: That's when the two of you stood and faced one another and said your vows. Dennis: It was still summer in Houston. Bob: Did you think, “This is going to be a breeze,” or did you think, “I know there will be some challenges”? Dennis: I just didn't think. [Laughter] Honestly! I was in love. I was committed. I was ready to get on with life with my new bride and my new love. Honestly, I didn't do a lot of cost-counting; but I did make a commitment. Bob: We heard your wife laugh as you said, “I wasn't really thinking.” Barbara, welcome to FamilyLife Today. Barbara: Thank you. Dennis: Were you thinking, Barbara? Barbara: Not much more than you were. Bob: But were you confident? Barbara: Yes, I really was. Bob: Did you start marriage, thinking, “I can do this”? Barbara: Yes; I really did because I had grown up in a good home. My parents were not divorced. I had seen them work out their marriage and—though there were things I wanted to do differently—I felt like I could do this. Added to that, I was doubly confident because I was a Christian and my husband was. We were not just pew-warmers / we were committed Christ followers. I thought: “This is guaranteed to work because we've got the right ingredients: We love each other. We love the Lord. We are going to do this the right way. We're going to follow the instructions in the Bible—A+B=C. It's going to work out great!” Bob: The reason we're exploring this is because you've been spending a lot of time, recently, working on editing a series of letters—actually, emails that grew into letters. Barbara: Yes. Bob: Letters that you've written over the years to your daughters and your daughters-in-law, where you've just offered counsel from your own life and experience about getting married. Barbara: Yes. I started writing this series of letters the summer that both of our sons got married. It wasn't so much that I wanted to teach them—and I was invited to do so by the way—I didn't do this without an invitation. It was that I wanted to encourage them by sharing some of the stories of things that I had learned so that they would know that: “Oh, it's normal to have disagreements. Oh, it's normal for this to happen or that to happen,” so that they would understand the long view of marriage and the big picture of marriage. Dennis: One of the things that had occurred in our marriage that I think really pointed out the importance of perhaps Barbara doing this—early in our marriage, she had kind of run into the differences between us and how that was impacting her. Someone told us—and I don't remember who—but said, “You really ought to go spend some time with an older woman who has experienced more of life and been around the barn a few more times than you have.” Just to spend some time and to know that what you're going through is normal. Bob: Yes. Dennis: I think couples start out their marriage together and they get isolated. They don't realize that what they're going through is what everybody else is dealing with. But if they have someone who is seasoned / who's authentic—and not going to create some kind of pie-in-the-sky approach that's: “A+B=C, and you're going to have all your problems solved by sundown tonight,”—if you've got somebody who's real and helps you understand that it takes a lifetime to work out this thing called marriage. That's what really fueled Barbara in writing our daughters and our daughters-in-law to be able to enter in to these first months and years of their marriage. Bob: Barbara, one of the issues you felt like you needed to mentor your daughters and daughters-in-law in was this issue that we talked about—your confidence that you could be the wife and mom that God called you to be—that, at some point along the way, you kind of woke up and went, “This is harder than I thought it was going to be.” Barbara: Yes. I think that realization was an on-going realization. What I've realized, as I look back over my life, is that, along the way—from those early months of our marriage all the way up until the present—God has been saying to me, over and over again, “You can't do this on your own.” Now, my initial response is, “Oh, yes; I can.” Bob: Yes. Barbara: Because I've got—especially in the early years—a lot of motivation, a lot of energy, a lot of enthusiasm—to really do a good job being a wife. Most young women start out that way / most new brides start out that way. We're highly motivated, highly teachable, energetic, ready to go and be the best we can be; but God knows that, if we really are able to produce on our own, then our confidence is in our self and not in Him.  In this section of the book, I tell lots of stories of how God took me places where I realized I could not do it on my own; and I could not garner up enough strength on my own to see the situation through. Bob: The book you're talking about, of course, is called, Letters to My Daughters. It's your brand-new book. The subtitle is The Art of Being a Wife—Barbara Rainey is showing us on FamilyLife Today.  Barbara, you started marriage as a committed follower of Christ. You were involved in ministry, but there were cracks in your spiritual foundation that started to show up under the pressure of marriage— Barbara: Yes; they did. I first felt it most dramatically after our first child was born. We had moved for probably the fourth or fifth time—I can't remember. We'd moved a bunch in those first two-and-a-half years of marriage. I remember one day just feeling really overwhelmed with these jobs I had. I was a wife, and I was a mother—and it was 24/7. Our new little baby didn't come with an instruction manual, and I didn't know what I was doing. We lived in California, and my mother was in Texas. It's not like I could call her every day, or I could go visit her, or she could come over in the afternoon and babysit so I could take a nap. I mean, I was really very, very lonely. I was very isolated, and I was very bewildered as to how to make this thing work: “How do I do this wifing and mothering thing without any instructions?” I really remember feeling a sense of real aloneness in that season of my life. I tell a story in the book—would you like to hear it?—about how I ran away? Bob: You ran away?! Barbara: I ran away. [Laughter] Dennis: It wasn't far—but she did run away. [Laughter] Barbara: No; it wasn't far—No; it wasn't far—but I had this—it really is what it was though. I wouldn't have even said so at the time but, looking back on it, it really is a good expression of what I was feeling. I went—out of just sheer frustration—I wasn't really angry / I was just bewildered. I left Ashley sleeping in the crib or, maybe, she was in the infant seat or something in the living room. I don't even know what Dennis was doing, but all I remember is that I went into the bathroom in our bedroom / our master bathroom and shut and locked the door. It was a teensy little master bathroom—it had a tub, and a toilet, with a little tiny counter with a sink in the middle. I sat on the toilet. Then I got uncomfortable, and I sat on the side of the tub. Then that got uncomfortable, and so I sat on the toilet again. The walls started to kind of close in on me and I thought, “Oh, now what do I do?” I was just absolutely lost because I didn't know how to—I just didn't know how to do this thing. Finally, I came out. Thankfully my husband, in his love for me, did not go: “What an idiot you were! What were you thinking?”—you know, going in the bathroom and locking the door—“What was the point of that?” He didn't belittle me / he didn't make fun of me. He didn't criticize me. He, I'm sure, gave me a hug; and we sat down and talked.  Now, what it was all about—I can't even begin to tell you. What he said to me—I don't remember—but I remember the emotion of the moment—that I was lost. I didn't know how to do this thing called marriage, I didn't know how to do this thing called mothering, and I didn't know where to go for help. That was the first real sort of moment of awakening—when I realized this was all bigger than I could handle, and I needed something outside of myself to make it work. It was God's bringing me to this place of going, “You can't do this on your own.” Dennis: I think, as a husband—truthfully, I think I was clueless that she didn't feel that confidence. Barbara: Well, of course, you were! How could you know? Dennis: This was an internal battle she was fighting. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: So, when she did come out of the bathroom, I don't think I had realized that she had actually locked herself in there— Barbara: No; I'm sure you didn't. Dennis: —and had kind of run away from her responsibilities for a few minutes. I don't think you were in there—probably, an hour— Barbara: No; not more than an hour. Dennis: —but the point is—as a husband, at that point / however imperfectly you may love—but just allow your wife to express the inability and to express her need for something to change / something to be different for her to move forward.  I think marriage is an opportunity for us to finish the process of growing up. In fact, I think it was Erma Bombeck who used to say, “Marriage is the last chance God gives us to grow up.”  Bob: Yes. Dennis: I think it's one of the tools God uses in our lives to take us to the end of ourselves— Barbara: Yes. Dennis: —where He kind of puts an exclamation point at the end of the sentence that says: “You need Me! Signed, God.” Barbara: Exactly; exactly. Bob: But Barbara, you were a Christian—you studied the Scriptures, you were in church, you were— Barbara: Yes! That's what I thought! [Laughter] Bob: So, what was missing? Barbara: I think what was missing was an experiential understanding of my need for Christ. Yes, I knew I needed Christ when I received Him. Yes, I knew—had you asked me, an hour before I went into the bathroom and locked the door, “Do you need Christ?”—I would have said, “Of course!” But it was knowledge more than it was heart experience. God loved me enough that He wanted me to feel my need for Him—for me to experience that I could not do this on my own. I think God loves us enough that He wants to take it from merely head knowledge to heart knowledge. It was the process that God was beginning to work in my life, where He was showing me: “No, you can't do this on your own. Your knowledge of Me is not enough. You need to experience a need for the Holy Spirit to control your life—not just know it in your head that, ‘Yes, that's the way you're supposed to do it,'—but you need to be aware of your need for Me so you will, in fact, depend on Me.” Bob: Okay; so, you're aware of your need. Now, you're going to do something different than you were doing. What's that different thing? How does somebody come out of the bathroom and say: “Okay; I realize I need to rely on God, I need the Holy Spirit to work in my life; but what can I do to make that happen? How do I walk in the power of the Holy Spirit?” Barbara: For me, it was very much an on-going process. It was a growth that happened over decades. But, in that moment, as much as I knew how, in that day of my life, I said: “Father, I want to trust You more. I want to be filled with the Spirit. I want You to control my life. I want You to give me the power and the strength to live the way that You want me to live—to do this thing called marriage that You've designed. This was Your idea in the first place; so therefore, You know how to make a marriage work. I want to depend on You more than I have in the past.”  I believe that I did; but then there came another point, on down the road, where God said: “Okay; now, you need to step it up a notch. You need to trust Me some more,”— I was trusting myself again too much. There was another lesson; and then, a few years later, another one.  I think that, just as our children grow up, incrementally, through the years—they don't go from being a baby to being 18 overnight. Physical growth is a slow process. There are all kinds of little things going on in their bodies, as they grow up, that we can't even see. It does take a long time for an infant to become an adult. I think the journey is similar in our spiritual growth. We start out as spiritual infants. God gently and slowly works in our lives and our circumstances so that we become mature adults, spiritually, and don't remain infants. Bob: One of the areas where you had to learn to rely on the power of the Holy Spirit in your own life was when you decided you wanted to do a make-over project on your husband; right? Barbara: [Laughing] Yes, I did that. Bob: This was Extreme Makeover. Is that what you were—back before it was on TV—you were— Barbara: Yes.  Dennis: It felt that way! [Laughter] Barbara: Yes, it probably did. What is so sad about this story is that I really thought I was doing the right thing! I was a Christian and I thought: “Okay; if there are some problems”—and there were—“if there are some things that I think are not right in our relationship”—and there were those things that I thought weren't right—“What are you supposed to do about it? You're supposed to pray about it; aren't you? Yes, that makes sense.” I made this list—I began to make a list of all the things that I thought were not right—primarily were not right about him / not so much things that weren't right about me—because I really didn't think there were that many things— Bob: That was a small list / little, tiny list. So you're setting off to try to fix—what kinds of things were you trying to fix? Barbara: You know, that's what's sad—I can't even remember what they were—but I'm quite sure it was all personality related because, as Dennis said earlier—he would get an idea, and [snaps fingers] process it that fast, and he'd be off and running. He didn't think things through thoroughly like I did. He was much more spontaneous and spur of the moment. I'm sure it was related to these personality differences that I saw, early on. I made this list, and I thought that the right thing to do was to pray about all the stuff that needed to be changed in his life. Dennis: It was a long list too. Bob: Well—[Laughing] Barbara: It wasn't really that long. [Laughter] Bob: Is there something wrong with a wife identifying: “These are areas that I think God needs to be at work in my husband's life, and I'm going to pray about God doing that work”?  Barbara: Yes; I think it's probably not a real good approach.  Bob: Really?! Barbara: Really; because what happened to me is—I had this list of 10 or 12 things. I prayed about them every day. What happened was—I thought about them all day after I repeated them to God in the morning. I would say: “Okay, God. Here are the things I think You need to work on in his life.” It was as if they were written in neon block letters on his back. Every time I saw him, I saw what was wrong because I was reminding myself, every day——before God, of course—but nonetheless, I was reminding myself every day of what I didn't like and what I thought needed to be fixed. I decided—after doing this for a couple of weeks—I thought: “You know, I don't like the way this feels. This is not really a fun way to approach God.” It's not fun—the results in my marriage—I just didn't like the fact that I was constantly seeing all these things that I didn't like. Bob: [To Dennis] Did you have any idea there was neon on your back? Dennis: I think I did know about the list. Bob: Really? Dennis: I do, and I think I definitely felt it when she threw the list away.  Barbara: That doesn't surprise me— Dennis: Yes. Barbara: —because I felt it when I threw the list away too.  Dennis: I mean, all of a sudden, I've got my friend back instead of my judge. Bob: What prompted you to throw the list away? Barbara: I just began to realize that this wasn't fun. I didn't like focusing on everything that I thought was wrong with him. I thought: “You know, I didn't used to feel this way. I used to like all these things about him, and now I don't.” It wasn't this great revelation—I just thought: “You know—this isn't fun. I don't like the way this makes me feel. I don't like the flavor in our relationship.”  I told God specifically one day—and I remember saying this—I said: “God, if You want to change these things in his life, it is Your business. I am not going to ask You about this anymore because I don't like what this is doing to our relationship. If You never change him, that is fine with me. It's Your business, not mine. I'm going to move forward and not pray about all these things that I think need to be corrected anymore.” I tore up the list, and I literally threw it away. Within days, I wasn't thinking about all that stuff anymore.  Dennis: You know— Barbara: It was a great relief. Dennis: There's a common thread here—to what she's talking about—that I want Barbara to comment because this has been a theme of her life. You're talking about, first of all, coming to the end of yourself, not once, but on multiple occasions, where you realize you couldn't do this thing called “being a wife” / you couldn't do this thing called “being a mom”—and you couldn't change your husband. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: It's not you that's going to do any of this. You came to the conclusion that it had to be Christ in you and you yielded to Him. Barbara: Exactly. Dennis: What would you say to a wife, who's listening, who's going: “Got me!  I'm raising my hands, saying, ‘That's me you're describing'”? What's the hope? What's the solution?—not in terms of a formula—but what does she need to begin to practice? Barbara: I think the bottom line is going to be the same for the rest of your life; that is—when God brings you to a place that you realize you cannot do this thing called marriage, you can't do this thing called mothering, you can't even do the Christian life on your own—that you come to Him and you say: “I give up. I surrender. I need You. Will You empower me? Will you fill me with Your Spirit? Will You lead me?” because it really is coming to a point of giving up because what I was doing, when I was praying for you, is—I was trying to take over.  I was trying to tell God what I thought He needed to do in your life. I realized that I needed to give up. I need to let God do what He wanted to do, in His timetable. I basically—in essence, by saying, “I'm not going to do this anymore,'—I surrendered and I said, “Your will, not mine.” Bob: You know, just about every time I speak at a Weekend to Remember® marriage getaway—first night, I'll say, “If you brought your spouse here, hoping that together we could get her fixed or get him changed, I have bad news for you.” [Laughter] I say, “I'm not even going to be talking to your spouse this weekend. The only person I came here to talk to is you.” I think sometimes— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —rather than focusing on, “God change this other person,”—  Dennis: Yes.  Barbara: Yes. Bob: —our prayers need to be redirected: “Lord, change me.” Barbara: Exactly. Bob: I had to chuckle, Barbara, because, at the end of this “Note to Your Daughters,” as you shared this story—you said, “More stories about my failures to come. [Barbara laughing] Love you, Mom.” Really, this collection of letters that you've written to you daughters are lessons you've learned—  Barbara: Yes. Bob: —some of them through not doing it right. Barbara: Oh, lots of them learned through not doing it right because I think that's when God gets our attention. When we're sailing along, and everything's smooth, that's when we don't think we need God; but when we realize we can't do it, and we're making mistakes, then we go, “Okay; then maybe—maybe I need some help— Bob: Yes. Barbara: —“and God needs to be my help.” Dennis: —“and Jesus is that help.”  Barbara: Yes. Dennis: If the story of Easter is true—and it is / Christ is alive from the dead—then He can make this claim—He said in John 15, “I am the true vine.” Later on, in the same passage, He says, “As a branch cannot bear fruit by itself,”—does that sound familiar? Bob: Yes. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: “You can't do it on your own!”—“As a branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in Me and I in him, he it is who bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.” If you've come to the end of yourself, it's a good thing! Barbara: It is—and that's what God was trying to show me through this story and many, many other circumstances in my life. He was saying: “Apart from Me you can do nothing. Do you get it?” Dennis: And I think life— Barbara: And I said, “Yes!” Dennis: And I think life is one long process of Him saying, “Do you get it yet?” Barbara: Yes, it is. Dennis: “Do you get it now?” [Laughter] Bob: And one long process of surrender because we keep doing it, as you said, over and over again. I think, in addition to the surrender then, there needs to be godly counsel that helps point us in the right direction—to help us correct the patterns that are the patterns of the flesh that are with us and point us to new habits, that are spiritually-informed and spiritually-motivated. Barbara, I think you are helping to provide the wise counsel for a lot of wives in what you've shared today and what you've written in your brand-new book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. We've got the book in our FamilyLifeToday Resource Center. It's brand-new—just now out in stores. We'd love for you to have a copy. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Ask about the book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife by Barbara Rainey when you get in touch with us. We want to say a quick, “Congratulations!” and “Happy Anniversary!” to our friends, David and Diana Aguilar, who live in Union, Missouri. Today is their 29th wedding anniversary. The Aguilars listen to KSIV, out of St. Louis. They've been married since 1987.  We are the “Proud Sponsor of Anniversaries,” here at FamilyLife. We're celebrating our 40th anniversary this year; but honestly, it's not our anniversary that matters—it's all of the anniversaries that have happened because of how God has used FamilyLife in the lives of so many couples over the last 40 years. It's been humbling to be a part of that whole process. If you help support this ministry, as a Legacy Partner or as somebody who gives an occasional donation, you've been a part of the process as well. Your support is what makes FamilyLife Today possible. We could not exist and could not do what we do if it weren't for friends, like you, who help make this happen. This month, we are praying and asking God that He would raise up 20 new families in every state where FamilyLife Today is heard to be new Legacy Partners, joining with us here at FamilyLife. Would you consider being one of those new Legacy Partner families? All you have to do is go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click where it says, “DONATE.” The information about becoming a Legacy Partner is available there. Or call: 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY”; and say, “I'm interested in becoming a Legacy Partner.” Be sure to join us back tomorrow. We're going to continue talking about a wife's responsibility in her marriage. We'll talk tomorrow about what happens when a woman wants to be a helper but it starts to go bad—and it can do that. We'll talk about that tomorrow. Hope you can be here. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Embracing the Differences Guest:                        Barbara Rainey                    From the series:       Letters to My Daughters (Day 1 of 3)  Bob: Engaged couples often look at one another and think, “We're so much alike!” Then, after they have been married for a little while, they look at each other and think, “Who are you?!” Here's Barbara Rainey. Barbara: What happens when we're engaged—we tend to think: “Oh, we're so much alike. We love each other so much—we'll never have clashes.” I think one of the first difficulties for most young couples is they're caught off guard by these differences. They don't know what to do with them—they go from being cute and attractive to being downright ugly or frustrating. All of a sudden, what was cute isn't so cute anymore; and you think, “Now what do I do?” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, February 15th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. So what advice would you give to young wives and their husbands about the adjustments we make in marriage? We're going to hear what Barbara Rainey has to say about that today. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I am really enjoying learning lots of new things about you, Barbara. Dennis: You're eavesdropping. Bob: Well, it's legitimate eavesdropping because of what your wife's been writing about. This has been so much fun to read. [Laughter] Dennis: I think I want to welcome her to FamilyLife Today—Sweetheart. Barbara: Maybe we don't; huh? [Laughter] Dennis: This is my bride, and she has plenty of stories to tell. Bob: And she has just recently—by the way, welcome, Barbara—nice to have you here. Barbara: Thank you, Bob. Bob: You've been collecting these stories, not to share with the world your stories, but really to mentor—you've become an e-mentor; haven't you? Barbara: Yes. I'm really writing this for six women / six young women, who happen to be my four daughters and two daughters-in-law—to share with them the lessons that I've learned over all these years of marriage in hopes that it will encourage them, and give them hope, and help them—help them persevere for the long haul. 2:00 Dennis: But it actually started—back to Bob's point about—from an e-mentoring standpoint—really started on the internet— Barbara: It did. That's right; I had forgotten. Dennis: —as you were writing emails to your daughters and daughters-in-law so that you'd be able to coach them / encourage them in the process. Bob: Did you start doing this right after Ashley got married? Barbara: No; actually, it was after our two boys got married. They got married the same summer—the summer of 2001. One of those two girls asked me if I would give her some advice on being a wife. I thought: “Wow! She really wants my advice?” I thought, “If she cracked the door open a little bit, I'm going to just walk right on through while the door's open!” I said, “Sure, I'd love to!”  I began writing a series of letters in the fall of 2001 to my two brand-new daughters-in-law and to my daughter, Ashley, who, by then, had been married four years. Bob: A lot of—a wife will hear you say that and they'll think, ““Boy, if somebody asked me, I wouldn't know where to start or what to say.”  3:00 But it sounds like you were ready to dive right in with wisdom. Barbara: Well, I don't know that I would say it that way, but I was ready to dive in—in the sense that I felt like, “Now was the time,” because all new brides are extremely teachable—they're eager, they want to learn, they want to do it right, they don't want to make mistakes—they really love this guy they just married. They're most teachable and most coachable in those early years. I wanted to begin by sort of exploiting that—in a sense, in a good way—by saying: “Here are some things that I learned / here are some lessons I learned along the way. Here are some stories of what we went through / what I've learned from it. Perhaps, it will be helpful.” Dennis: Over the years, we've—who knows how many hundreds of Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways have been held by FamilyLife—we've looked into the eyes of those in attendance.  4:00 It does seem that the engaged couples and the newly-marrieds are, not only on a steep learning curve, but they're much more teachable and kind of spongy in terms of soaking in the truth. What we wanted to do—and what I encouraged Barbara to do with this book—is take advantage of a window into the soul to speak a lot of relevant truth that she's learned, as a woman from the Scriptures and from other older women who have coached her, and really help these young wives get started on the right trajectory.  Bob: They didn't ask you about a specific subject. They just said, “Help me be a wife.” How did you know, “Okay; I'll start here”? Barbara: Well, what I did is—I just thought back to those early days in our marriage and tried to remember: “What were the lessons that I learned? What did I do right? What did I do wrong?” Bob: Like that early romantic date that Dennis took you on? Barbara: Yes, like that one. Bob: Tell our listeners about—[Laughter] Barbara: You like this; don't you? [Laughter] 5:00 Bob: —how ““Prince Charming” swept you off your feet. [Laughter] Barbara: Yes. While we were dating in the summer of 1972, which was of course in the dark ages—one Saturday / it was probably on a Friday afternoon Dennis asked if I wanted to hang out on Saturday afternoon. I said, “Sure.” He picked me up in his— Bob: Now, let me interrupt you just so we get a context. Barbara: Okay. Bob: You guys had been friends for years— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —since college.  Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Right. Bob: [To Barbara] After college, you went to the east coast and worked with Campus Crusade. Barbara: Correct. Dennis: University of South Carolina. Bob: [To Dennis] Where did you go? Dennis: I was in Dallas/Ft. Worth area, working with high school kids.  Bob: You kept up your friendship—  Barbara: Yes. Bob: —but there was nothing romantic between the two of you. Barbara: No, nothing romantic. We had been really good friends for three years. I really thought of Dennis as a brother—he was just a great, great friend. Dennis: She showed up in Dallas and needed to be shown around—kind of where everything was / kind of how you get around—so I'd pick her up, take her to work. Bob: Now, were you thinking of her like your sister at this point? 6:00 Dennis: Yes, I really was. It was not romantic—it really wasn't—which is really a cheap shot on your part—[Laughter]—to call out this thing that I took her on as a romantic date because we were just hanging out! Barbara: That's right—we were. Bob: Was this before—this date we're about to talk about—was this before or after you had tried to hold hands with her in the parking lot? Dennis: Way before. Barbara: I have no idea. Dennis: Way before. Bob: Really? Barbara: I would think so—yes. Dennis: Oh, yes; oh, yes. Bob: Okay. Barbara: I would guess. Bob: It's just friends: “Hey, do you want to hang out tomorrow?” Dennis: Yes. I'd take her back to her apartment, and we'd kind of sit on the stairs and talk— Barbara: Yes. Bob: Just visit. Dennis: —until about 2:00 in the morning—[Laughter]—just like a couple of friends. Barbara: Yes. Bob: Yes. Barbara: Yes. [Dennis laughing] Bob: Okay. So he says, “Do you want to hang out tomorrow?” and he comes and picks you up. Barbara: He did.  Bob: Did you know where you were going? Barbara: You know, I don't remember—it was too long ago. I don't remember if I knew or not, but I knew it was casual. I knew we were going to go on a picnic. He took me to some remote place outside of Dallas/Ft. Worth— 7:00 Bob: Now wait. I've got to stop you here. You're taking her on a picnic. You're not taking your buddy—“Let's go hang out,”— on a picnic. There's more going on here in your mind [Barbara laughing] than just, “Let's hang out together.” Dennis: She needed to understand where the riverbanks were— Bob: Alright.  Barbara: Like I really care! Bob: We understand one another here; okay. So he picks you up? [Laughter] Barbara: Yes. We take off to parts unknown because I'd never really been in Texas in my life. I didn't know where we were going, but I trusted him. We show up at this stream, or river, or pool of water, or something—I don't know where it was! Dennis: I don't know where it was—it was below a dam somewhere. Barbara: Gosh; I couldn't begin to tell you. Dennis: It was murky / it was fishy-smelling. It was a great date! Barbara: All I know is he pulls out a fishing pole—fishing rod / fishing thing—I didn't know what a fishing thing was! [Laughter] Oh, how funny! Bob: One of the things you observed or learned, when you shared this story with your daughters—it was really to talk about the fact that, in relationships, you've got to make some adjustments and be ready for the fact that you're two very different people. Barbara: Exactly; because after we married, about three months later, we moved to Colorado.  8:00 In Colorado, there was abundant fishing.  Bob: You married three months later—after the fishing date? Barbara: Yes! Dennis: You caught up on that small detail. [Laughter] Bob: I just thought our listeners ought to be aware. [Laughter] It went from zero to sixty. Dennis: I'm a man of action, Bob. Bob: This was a sports car relationship. [Laughter] So, from the day you said, “Will you…” to the day you said, “I do,”— Barbara: —was six weeks. Bob: Six weeks? Barbara: Six weeks. Bob: You said, “I'll be the Fish Queen for as long as we both shall live.” [Laughter] Dennis: Then, on our honeymoon, I took her camping and trout fishing. [Laughter] We need to get to the point of the book though—she's talking about how we, as men and women, are different. Barbara: That's right. Dennis: I mean, we did start out our marriage—really, not polar opposites—because we enjoyed one another. Barbara: Yes, we had a great time; but, had you asked me what I would have pictured for the early years of our marriage, I would not have pictured traipsing around in the mountains—  9:00 —fishing, and camping, and all of those things—because none of that was a part of my background, growing up. They were totally brand-new experiences. I learned, by those experiences, that marrying someone is merging together two vastly different—not just personalities—but life experiences. As Dennis used to say, all the time, “It's like merging two countries.” Bob: Yes. Barbara: Because we are very different, as men and women—we're very different in our life experiences / our outlook—everything is different. So those early years are years of discovery. What you do with what you discover sets the tone and the foundation for your marriage. Bob: Obviously, we're talking to Barbara Rainey, who is joining us today on FamilyLife Today. We're talking about the wisdom that you want to pass on to younger women—specifically to your daughters—about being a wife. You've just written a book called Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. 10:00 What are the big ideas that you want to pass on to your daughters in this area of marital differences? Barbara: First of all—the first big idea is that there are going to be differences. It‘s normal to be diametrically opposite on all kinds of fronts. Because what happens—when we're engaged / and dating but then engaged—we tend to think: “Oh, we're so much alike, and we love each other so much—we'll never have clashes. Yes; if we do, we can handle them. We love each other so much that it's not going to be difficult.”  I think one of the first difficulties for most young couples is they're caught off guard by these differences. They don't know what to do with them—they go from being cute and attractive to being downright ugly or frustrating.  Bob: Yes. Barbara: All of a sudden, what was cute isn't so cute anymore; and you think, “Now, what do I do?” Bob: We have this tendency to think different means wrong. Barbara: Wrong; yes. 11:00 Bob: “This is the way I think; and it's the way I think naturally. So I must be right; and if you think differently, we need to fix you so you think like me.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: That's part of the awakening and adjusting that both wives and husbands have to do in the early stages of a relationship; right? Barbara: Exactly; because that's one of the beautiful things about marriage—is how it broadens our perspective. I write about that in telling these stories about fishing. I knew nothing about fishing; but because of who I married, the horizons of my life have been greatly expanded and broadened. I could have either fought that, and resisted that, and said: “I don't want any part of that! That's foreign to me. I don't like it”; but by embracing who he was, and his differences as a person, my life is much richer because of that.  I think, if we can encourage these young wives—and husbands too / but this is for the wives right now—to welcome those differences as an opportunity to grow as an individual, it will make it easier. Dennis: I like what you wrote in your book here— 12:00 —you said: “These new realities created some minor earthquakes in my life—rumblings that shook my familiar, comfortable foundation. I was discovering that we were not as much alike as I'd originally thought. We were opposites who were attracted to one another but found ourselves, like magnets, that repel each other.” And then she goes on to write about how I would make a decision compared to how she would make one.  Bob: Yes. Dennis: I'd see something that needed to be done or something I felt like we ought to go do—I'd process at the speed of light and off we'd go.  Bob: Right. Dennis: Barbara, on the other hand, processes a little slower. In fact— Barbara: —a lot slower. Dennis: —a lot slower. Barbara: Is that what you were going to say? Bob: A little more thoughtfully—with a little broader perspective. Dennis: I've been enriched by that, but I promise you—if, early in our marriage, we had set up war with one another in two separate bunkers.  13:00 You could easily have built a case between two very different people, who had started out their marriage together, but now really can't get along and don't see one another—as we teach at the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway—as “God's perfect gift for you.” Bob: You describe how you began to approach these differences in your marriage. You call it the “Bookend Principle.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: Explain what that is. Barbara: The Bookend Principle is something that Dennis and I practiced with one another; and then, after the fact, sort of came up with the name for that. What we have done through the years is—when we've had disagreements over our differences or conversations trying to understand one another—we would say to each other: “I love you, and I would marry you all over again. This may be hard, this may be confusing, this may be difficult—it may not be fixed in a single conversation, like we would always like; but that's okay. I love you and I'm committed to you, and I would do it all over again.” 14:00 That statement of reaffirmation of our vows and commitment to one another provides a level of security to continue to have these discussions about our differences. I think it's a good habit. It was a good habit for us because you can get so caught up in how different we are—and how his differences grate on me or make life difficult for me and my differences make life difficult for him—that you can subtly switch to becoming enemies rather than allies. Bob: Were there times, or events, or evenings when you weren't sure you loved him and you weren't sure you'd marry him all over again? Barbara: No. There were times when I didn't feel loving—without question—but I never got to the place where I thought, “This was a big mistake,” because I knew that God had called us to marry each other. I knew that we were doing what we were supposed to do. So, therefore, if this was God's will, and it was, then He would enable us to figure it out with time. Bob: That issue was settled. Barbara: Yes; “Done.” Bob: That wasn't open for reevaluation— Barbara: No. Bob: —reexamination— Barbara: No. Bob: —re-discussion.  15:00 At some point—when you stood and said, “I do,”—the ships were burned. You weren't going to reconsider whether— Barbara: I think that's the mistake too many young couples are making today—is they get into it, and it becomes difficult—instead of saying, “We can work this out,” they say, “Gosh; we must have made a mistake.” They move to, “This is a mistake, and maybe there's a way out,” rather than, “We can find a way through this / we can make it work,” and stick with it for the long haul. Dennis: I look back on our marriage. I don't remember ever entertaining the thought. And I mean by entertaining—I'm talking about cultivating the thought that I'd made a mistake. I do wonder, looking back on it—this Bookend Principle of kind of starting out with a commitment that says, “I love you,” and then maybe, in the midst of an argument or after the argument has been exhausted, you say again: “I'm committed to you. I'd marry you all over again.”  16:00 It creates a safe place for two imperfect, very different people to hammer out their relationship together. I think we're an instant culture that is not used to having to take a lifetime to achieve this thing called “oneness.” What we were doing, back then—we were going through some very hard ground. I mean, it had not been plowed before—two very independent people—who had joined together in marriage, and who did rub one another the wrong way, and who, in their differences, missed each other over, and over, and over again—and, as a result, mis-communicated, disappointed, hurt one another. How do you maintain a relationship in the midst of that if you're not committed?   Bob: I think it's important because we can laugh about fishing dates, and whether you like fishing or not; but a lot of folks, who are listening, are going, “Look, our differences are not around whether you like fishing or not— Barbara: Yes; exactly. 17:00 Bob: “Our differences are around core, fundamental, deeply-held issues in life. The fact that we're miles apart on this—I just don't know how to live with a husband / or a wife who does not embrace what's dear to me at the center of my being.” Barbara: Yes. That is a very difficult place to be. Even though Dennis and I never really had a crisis quite to that depth, we missed each other plenty of times. There are seasons in a marriage when it's very dry and when there doesn't feel like there's much life. I would have to say that: “There is hope. There's always hope, as long as we have breath, that if you are committed and you are teachable—both of you are teachable—and you hang in there, there will be a solution, given time.” I think that we expect too much too quickly. We would like to have it happen quickly—I would like to have it happen more quickly too, but that's just not the way of a marriage.  18:00 A marriage is slow, steady growth over a long length of time.  Dennis: If you go back to Genesis, Chapters 2 and 3, the way God commands a marriage to start is He commanded a man and a woman to leave father and mother. He commanded them to cleave to one another / to be committed to one another. And third, He commanded them to receive one another—to receive the other person as God's gift for you. If you practice those three concepts—leave, cleave, and receive—over, and over, and over again—if you practice that in your marriage / especially, in the early years—it doesn't mean it's ever going to be easy. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: I asked Barbara how she would summarize our marriage. I was kind of hoping for “romantic,” [Laughter] “chill bumps”— Barbara: —“wonderful.” Dennis: You know? But instead, you said? Barbara: “It's been hard.” Dennis: “Hard work.” Barbara: “Hard work”; yes. 19:00 Dennis: Lots of hard work. I think a lot of young couples—and for that matter, older couples—are starting out marriages today not really expecting it to be as challenging and to demand perseverance like it does Bob: I just have to come back around here because you're right in this section of your book that—not only did your marriage start off with fishing—but through the years you've learned to enjoy hunting with your husband? [Laughter] Is that true? Barbara: Well, not by his definition; no. Not by— Dennis: I was waiting for the answer to that question. Bob: I'm going to read to you what you wrote. Barbara: Okay; okay. Read what I wrote. Bob: “And I have learned to appreciate hunting.” Barbara: Yes, “appreciate it.” Bob: Maybe “appreciate” is a better word than— Barbara: “Appreciate” is a better word. Yes Bob: “I actually went with him on an elk hunt a few years ago— Barbara: Yes. I did. Bob: — “with the camo, the face paint, and the human scent killers sprayed on my body.” Barbara: [Laughing] I did! Barbara and Bob: “Aren't you impressed?” [Laughter] Bob: That's what you say right here: “Aren't you impressed?” [Laughter]  20:00  “We hiked and hiked and snuck up on a herd of elk hiding behind trees like clandestine spies following a double agent down a dark alley in Eastern Europe. It was really fun!” Barbara: It was fun! [Laughter] Bob: But the point is that we're going to face these differences in the first years of our marriage.  Barbara: Yes. Bob: Some of them crop up ten years in—fifteen. It's a life-long process of understanding “We're different,” and making those adjustments. Barbara: Exactly. That really is the point that I'm trying to make with these girls—is that the differences are there—they're not to be changed and they're going to be there for life. I think we somehow assume, early on, that a lot of this stuff is going to subside, or change, or moderate; but who we are is who we are.  I'm just amazed at how little really changes over time. You either fight it, and resent it, and resist it, or you join and learn to actually enjoy it and appreciate it.  21:00 Now, do I love to go hunting? No. I enjoyed that because it was active. We were hiking in the mountains, and it was beautiful. Dennis: And it was warm. Barbara: And it was reasonably warm; yes. But the kind of hunting that he is often inviting me to go on—which I have refused—is the kind where you get up at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning, in the winter, and you go sit. You can't talk / you can hardly breathe, and it's freezing. [Laughter] Hiking in the mountains—we could talk as we went—until we actually saw the elk / then we had to be quiet. It was a much different kind of experience so I could appreciate that one. But sitting in a deer stand—I've done it once and I'm not real interested in going there again. Bob: The point is—you don't have to be interested in going there again to make your marriage work. This is a part of the dance. One of your chapters in your book, “Marriage Is Like Beautiful Dancing”—  22:00 —“Part of the dance is understanding what we do together and where it's better to leave each other some space and some time to do things apart.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: I just think you have given some real great practical wisdom to a lot of wives in what you've written in your book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. It's brand new, and you can go to FamilyLifeToday.com to request your copy. Or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY and ask for the book, Letters to My Daughters, when you get in touch with us. Now, as both of you guys know, this is our 40th anniversary as a ministry—2016. All year long, we are celebrating anniversaries. Today, we want to congratulate Abigail and Angelo Pinheiro. They live in Princeton, New Jersey. They listen to FamilyLife Today on WFIL. They're celebrating 21 years of marriage today. “Congratulations!” to the Pinheiros—“Happy Anniversary!”  23:00 We'd love to help you celebrate your anniversary this year. In fact, if you will go to FamilyLifeToday.com and leave us your anniversary date, we'll have some suggestions for you this year on how this year's anniversary can be the best anniversary ever. It's all because we are the “Proud Sponsor of Anniversaries.” There are a lot of anniversaries that have happened over the years because of how God has used FamilyLife in people's lives for 40 years now. Thanks to those of you who make FamilyLife possible. We're listener-supported—we depend on your donations in order for this ministry to exist. This month, we're hoping that God might raise up, in every state where FamilyLife Today is heard, 20 new families who would join us as Legacy Partners. We're asking you—if you're a regular FamilyLife Today listener / if God's used this ministry in your life: “Would you be one of the families in your state to help support this program?”  It's easy to do—go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the button that says, “DONATE.”  24:00 There is information there about becoming a Legacy Partner or about how you can make a one-time gift to FamilyLife Today. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. You can also call and say, “I'm interested in becoming a Legacy Partner.” We'll explain the whole process to you when you call 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”  Now, tomorrow, we're going to talk about the spiritual foundation in a marriage and how important that is. Barbara Rainey will be back with us. Hope you can be here as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Building up Your Man Guest:                        Barbara Rainey                    From the series:       Letters to My Daughters (Day 1 of 2)  Bob: See if you can spot where the challenge is here: You're a wife and a mom who wants things to go right. Marriage and family is messy, and your husband isn't perfect. You see how that can be a problem? Here's Barbara Rainey. Barbara: One of the things that is true about us, as women—I had a conversation with my daughter just yesterday on the phone about this—is that it's so easy for us because of our emotional makeup to get very overwhelmed by the circumstances of life. So a woman, who is married and is discouraged by her relationship with her husband—she can get so overwhelmed to the point where she just doesn't see clearly.  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, April 27th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. What do you do, as a wife, when you get overwhelmed / discouraged by all that's going on? How do you deal with that? We're going to talk about it today with Barbara Rainey. Stay tuned.  1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife. Thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition. We're diving back into a rich field of ore today. I mean, there is some good stuff that we're going to be digging into. Dennis: We have some pretty fair guests on FamilyLife Today from time to time. Bob: We do; yes. Dennis: Max Lucado, Tony Evans, Crawford Loritts, Mary Kassian, Nancy Leigh DeMoss Wolgemuth—a lot of, really, pretty fair country guests. Bob: Pretty good communicators with some pretty good biblical knowledge. Dennis: Yes; this one is a cut above. Bob: Somebody who is— Dennis: —just a cut above. Bob: —kind of your favorite? Dennis: Definitely my favorite—my bride of 43 years.  2:00 Sweetheart, welcome back. Barbara: I don't know if I can live up to all of that. Dennis: That's pretty strong; wasn't it? Barbara: Very strong. Dennis: Well, our listeners love you. We were with some friends here this past weekend and ran into a number of listeners. They came up and talked to Barbara about her books and Ever Thine Home®—all the resources she's creating for wives, and moms, and women to be able to display their faith in their homes. It was kind of fun to watch them come out of the woodwork—out of a large gathering of people—come by and say, “Hi,” to Barbara and say, “I appreciate you.” Bob: Well, and a lot of buzz around your new book, which has just been out now for a few months. It's called Letters to My Daughters. This really didn't start as a book; did it? Barbara: It absolutely didn't. When our oldest son was engaged to be married, his fiancée came to me and said, “You know, I would really love to hear some encouragement from you about being a wife.” And I thought, “Wow!” Bob: She just opened the door; didn't she? 3:00 Barbara: I know. And I thought: “Wow. She opened the door. Then I'm going to gently and cautiously walk through that door.” And so I wasn't sure exactly how to go about doing it because we all lived in different places. It wasn't possible to take her out for coffee and have a conversation. So I decided I would start writing some letters—just to share some of the lessons that I had learned over the years in being a wife / just by way of encouragement and, “Here are some things that I learned, and maybe this will help you.”  Bob: Did you write them one-on-one to her or did you copy everybody else when you started? Barbara: I copied all three married girls. So our oldest, Ashley, who was already married, and then our son, Samuel, had married the same summer. So it went to three married girls. Bob: Then you expanded it out as this snowballed and continued? Barbara: We traded about—I sent—I'll rephrase that—I sent about a dozen emails total. I don't know how much of it was that they didn't know me that well—so there wasn't a lot of response—  4:00 —which I understood—I mean, you know—we're talking about subjects about marriage and this is your mother-in-law. What do you say? Bob: Yes. Barbara: So I didn't get much feedback—so they kind of dried up. Then, when our daughter Rebecca got married in 2005, I went and dug them all up and sent them to her kind of as a batch / a couple of them at a time. And that really was the end of it after that—the email version. Dennis: I think what's interesting about this is the whole idea came from a couple of sources. One was a book that was famous and very popular, back when Barbara and I were college students, by Charlie Shed. It's called Letters to Karen. It wasn't Letters to My Daughter, it was—although, was Karen his daughter? Barbara: Karen was his daughter. Bob: Because I also got Letters to Phillip, which was the follow-up, which he'd written letters to his son—both of them around marriage subjects, right? Dennis: Exactly; exactly.  5:00 But there was another kind of—I don't know—birthplace of this idea of sending letters that was a part of Barbara's family. Barbara: When I was growing up, I remember my mother used to anxiously look for this large legal-size envelope that would come in the mail probably every couple of months. She had married my dad and they had moved two or three states away from where she grew up. It was a place where she knew no one. Although she developed friends, there were no family members anywhere near. She, and her mother, and some other relatives in the family, and friends had this exchange of letters, that were all handwritten, that went by the postal service. It was called a round robin.  My mother would write her letter, put it in the envelope, and send it on its way, where the next person would read my mother's letter and all of the other letters that were in it. She would take out her original letter, and put in a new letter, and send the packet on its way.  6:00 It would just make this circle between these six or eight women that were a part of this group because nobody got on the phone and talked for fun in those days. You only used the phone for emergencies, or business, or important things. You didn't just get on it to chat. Letter writing was the only way that you really kept up with people who lived far away. They had this letter exchange that they passed around.  I just remember, very vividly, that every time that letter came / that packet—with all those messages from home / touches with her family and friends that she didn't get to see very often—she would get a cup of coffee and sit down. She relished those letters—she read them and absorbed all that she could out of those communications from friends that she loved, and cared about, and missed deeply. That became a way for her to stay in touch with those friends. Dennis: You know, it's interesting, Bob—now, in the present age of social media and having communication so— 7:00 Bob: —tweets, and texts, and emails. Dennis: —it's so easy, you know. We have access to so much that the art of letter writing—I mean, a really good thoughtful letter—in fact, I have back on my desk a letter that was given to me by Steve Green, who is the President and CEO of Hobby Lobby, that he'd obtained that was written by Thomas Jefferson, during his presidency. It's just interesting to have a copy of a letter that's over 200 years old and to think about the words being crafted—how thoughtful it was. I think there's a need to recapture that—both personal side but also just the thoughtful side / the contemplative side of: “You're facing some issues, let me step into your life and provide some guidance in a personal way for you.” Bob: Not just shoot from the hip, but give some real thought to the response. Some of the letters—because you will print a letter in here—we should say this is not an actual letter from one of your daughters. People shouldn't read this and try to figure out which daughter was asking this question. 8:00 Barbara: Correct. Bob: You would take a composite of questions that were being asked of you—subjects that your daughters were asking you about. Dennis: —and people who were coming up to Barbara at a Weekend to Remember® marriage getaway.  Bob: Right. Dennis: We have tens of thousands of people, who come to those events. When Barbara speaks, women stand in line to talk to her. These questions that are in the book are really questions that these women had asked Barbara from the Weekend to Remember. Bob: I'm looking at one of the letters that you respond to in your book. You're tackling some pretty interesting stuff here. I mean, one of these letters asks this question—it says: “Hey, Mom, sometimes I get tired of being discouraged by all the unexpected things that I have to deal with that come from the way my husband lives life. It's not just that we're different—you already wrote me about—that it's more than that. It's like I think, ‘If I didn't have him, sometimes life would be easier.'”  9:00 Now wait a sec! Do wives really feel that way? [Laughter] I mean, I'm starting to feel a little insecure here! Does a wife really feel like sometimes life would be easier— Dennis: Let me just stop you. What if your wife's name is on the book—[Laughter] Bob: You can feel real insecure now! [Laughter] Dennis: —and you're on the radio! Bob: Let me finish this—it says, “It's kind of nice when he's out of town for a few days.” This is a wife, who is saying, “Sometimes, I wonder if I'd be happier, more satisfied, more fulfilled if I didn't have a husband to deal with.” Barbara: Well, I think there are those moments when women do feel that way because the differences never go away—that's the first chapter in the book. I write in the book that it's the first and most lasting adjustment to marriage because the differences never go away. Even though I'm used to things that he brings to our world—his personality, the way he approaches life, and his maleness— 10:00 Bob: His perspective is different. Barbara: —it's very different. I think what this question is saying is—that, sometimes, when a husband travels, there feels a little bit of a: “Oh I can do things the way I want to do things. I don't have to be just thinking about what I would like to do and ‘How's this going to make him feel? How he's going to respond to this?' I can just do what I want to do.”  Bob: You know, I get that because I think, for husbands—I think there's a similar— Barbara: I would expect so! Bob: —to have a break and just to be able to—times when I'm traveling, I'm focused on whatever I'm doing, traveling-wise, and— Barbara: Or if your wife goes on a women's retreat, you can just kind of veg and eat pizza all day long and not worry about anything; right? Bob: Sometimes, those breaks are nice to have; but you wouldn't want them to go on for very long. Barbara: No; no. Bob: In the midst of them, you do have a sense of something lacking, even if you're enjoying just the pause in the relationship; right? Barbara: Right. Without question because we are complete in one another, and marriage does complete that which is lacking.  11:00 I mean, God says, “The two shall become one.” There is a sense in which you can relax about some things when your husband or your wife is out of town, but there is that realization that life isn't the same without him in it. So it makes you miss one another and appreciate those differences / those things that the other person brings that are so very contradictory at times. But it is for good. Bob: When should a wife start to be concerned if she's thinking, “I kind of wish he'd go away for a few days because I really like it when he's gone.” When can she tell: “This is an okay break,” versus “No, this is us drifting toward isolation in our marriage”? Dennis: —or “This is unhealthy thinking.” Here's what we're talking about—we're talking about the very essence of marriage goes back to Genesis, where it says it was not good that man be alone.  12:00 So it says, “For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother; shall cleave to his wife and the two shall become one.” I think we get married because there's something lacking in our lives and that something is a person. It's the completeness of a husband and a wife in a marriage relationship designed by God.  The two are asked to deny themselves, and to defeat isolation, and not grow into an unhealthy relationship where you long for the times when you're going to be separated. You need to keep the relationship alive and not forget why you married the other person in the first place. God brought you together—you need to get on with it, and you need to learn how to embrace the differences. Barbara: It's okay to have a break occasionally; but the goal of marriage is being together, and becoming one, and allowing God to do his redemptive work in our lives. Dennis: Ultimately, what marriage is all about is—about two imperfect people learning how to love one another within the commitment of marriage.  13:00 Barbara: Yes. Dennis: You're going to school, with God teaching you from the Bible. I'd have to say I didn't understand that when I enrolled in this course called marriage. But looking back over four decades of marriage, I'd have to say I know more about love because of marriage than any other relationship in my life. Bob: Some of the wives, who are listening to us have this conversation, are thinking: “The negatives that you're talking about with my husband—some of these are pretty dark negatives. Some of these are negatives that cast such a shadow over the relationship that it's hard for me just to hold things together. How do I turn that into a positive? Or what do I do with those negatives? How do I deal with a husband who—man! the negatives—they're stark, and they're real, and it's really challenging?” Barbara: Yes. Bob: “I'm not married to Dennis,”—[Laughter]—  14:00 —you know, a wife, who's listening, is saying: “I'm not married to Dennis, who's a godly virtuous man, who is pursuing a walk with the Lord. I'm married to a guy who's marginally interested in spiritual things, and who's yelling at the kids, and who's drinking too much. What do I do?” Barbara: That's a very complex question because there are so many levels and degrees of what constitute negatives and difficult things in a relationship. So let me answer it two ways. One is: “Any wife has to start by looking at herself and saying: ‘Okay; God, am I accepting the man that You've put in my life? Am I giving thanks for him in his strengths and his weaknesses? Am I looking to You to do the transforming work?'” because you even said in your question / a woman says: “What can I do? How do I relate to him and help transform him?”  Well, it's not the wife's job. I think we so easily get caught up in thinking that it's our responsibility to fix him / to change him.  15:00 We do that with our kids—we're always helping our kids. We talked about that on another broadcast that helping a husband is different than helping your kids. But it starts by her attitude and her perspective, and her belief in God and His sovereignty, and His ability to work. It starts with where she's focusing her eyes—is she looking at all of the negative in his life to such a degree that she's totally forgotten all the good that there is? My first challenge is to her: “Are you open to God being at work? Have you totally given up on Him? Are you giving thanks for your relationship the way it is?”  And then the other side is: “If it really is indeed very, very difficult things that are beyond a woman's responsibility to deal with, you may need to see a counselor, you may need to get a pastor or someone who's wise and skilled to intervene—to help you, to coach you, to guide you. Find an older woman who can be your mentor to help give you perspective.  16:00 One of the things that's true about us, as women—I had a conversation with my daughter just yesterday on the phone about this—is that it's so easy for us, because of our emotional makeup, to get very overwhelmed by the circumstances of life. So a woman—who is married and is discouraged by her relationship with her husband—she can get so overwhelmed to the point that she just doesn't see clearly.  That's why a mentor is so helpful—someone who can look at it objectively and say: “You know, it's probably not as bad as you think it is. Let me give you one or two things that you can try—one or two practical suggestions that might make a difference for you,” because we do lose perspective and we do—we just get all out of sorts. It's very common for us, as women, to get discouraged with our marriages because we're just discouraged about life in general.  So check your heart.  17:00 Find someone to help you / find a mentor—find another woman who can speak objectively into your life and say, “It may not be as bad as you think it is, and here are some things you can try.”  Dennis: What I'd say to my daughters is—I'd say: “Do you remember when you'd get up in the morning and see your mom reading the Bible? What was that symbolic of? It was that your mom was teachable, that she was trying to meet with God, and ultimately that her hope was in God.”  So the woman, who's listening to us right now, who has lost hope—she's got to have a spiritual thermometer check: “How's your relationship with God?” You've got to be reminded of who He is, how He operates in this imperfect world that we live in, and what he's calling us to do, which is live and walk by faith in the power of the Holy Spirit. Barbara: I just want to say to the moms, who are listening, who've got a houseful of kids—or even maybe one or two kids, but it feels like a full house to you—I did not get up every morning and read my Bible.  18:00 My kids didn't see me doing that every day. I just don't want anyone listening to think that I was that woman that got up every morning and read my Bible. There were weeks that I would go by and not read my Bible in the morning. I would talk to God, and I would pray, and I would try to catch snippets of the Bible here and there in different places; but I was pretty overwhelmed and pretty buried with kids and with life.  Yes, I totally agree with what you just said, Dennis, that it is absolutely crucial that your hope is in God and no place else. Your hope can't be in your husband because he will fail, that's a given. Put your hope in God, and keep it there, and do all that you can to maintain that. I just don't want anybody to feel like there's this standard of: “I have to get up and read my Bible every morning before my kids are up.” If you can do that, great! I couldn't do that, and I failed miserably many times; but my hope remained in Christ for the most part. 19:00 Dennis: There is a Proverb that I was thinking about as I was thinking about our listeners today, who are going to hear Barbara on this subject—it is Proverbs, Chapter 4, verse 23—we quote it quite frequently, here on FamilyLife Today—it says, “Keep your heart with all vigilance for from it flow the springs of life.” You may not be able to get in the Bible every day—I'm glad you said that, just to remove this mythical phantom that exists of the super spiritual mom, but your heart needs to know whom it is that you serve / who is your hope—and you need to cultivate that.  I'm glad you mentioned a mentor, or a friend, or even a counselor if things really go south—or to keep them from going south—someone that you can lean into and you can spill out your emotions in safety and talk about it— 20:00 —not just being negative but try to find someone who can coach you out of the ditch that you may be in. That's what church is all about / that's what the community of faith—of Christ followers ought to be about. We ought to be meeting each other in our ditches and saying: “You know what? It's safe. We're all broken. There is nobody who's got it all together!” But to maybe dig in with a group of women into a book like this, Bob, and decide: “We're going to get real with each other. We're going to get honest, and we're going to make sure our hope is in the right place.” Bob: I was going to say—at one level, that's what this book is all about. It is a mentoring book. It is an older woman mentoring younger women on what it means to be a wife according to God's design. Dennis: I would just like to say here—and I know I'm biased—so the listeners—they already know that / they've already heard me talk about Barbara in the past—I'm biased toward her. This is not a fluffy, feel-good book.  21:00 This is a real-life book that talks about where you are living, as a woman, wife, mom, grandmother. I think it is life-giving—it's the words of a wise woman that are bringing life to others because she's reminding people of the truth. People today need to get away from the culture, and the messages of the culture, and the messages of all their buddies on Facebook® or Twitter®, and they need to dig in deep with someone who'll tell them the real truth and nothing but the truth.  Bob: If it was just you and this book alone, that would be good for your soul; but if it could be you and three or four other women and this book together, I think that just adds a dimension to where there's wisdom in a multitude of counselors / there's life-on-life happening. There's a support that can happen there. Dennis: Yes. 22:00 Bob: I'd encourage women to get together with three or four other women and get a copy of Barbara's book, Letters to My Daughters. We have a downloadable discussion guide that is available so that you and your friends can go through this book together, and then, there are questions you can ask. Again, you can find out more when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Order the book from us, online, at FamilLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY if you'd like to order a copy of Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. It's the new book by Barbara Rainey. Now, we have an anniversary we want to acknowledge today—Rick and Jill Bridges from Whittier, California, celebrating six years of marriage together. “Congratulations!” to the Bridges on their sixth anniversary. FamilyLife is celebrating an anniversary this year as well—it is 40 years of ministry for us / we started back in 1976.  23:00 Our whole goal with this ministry is to help more couples have more anniversaries. We want to provide you with practical biblical help and hope for your marriage and your family so that you have more years together—more years where you are thriving, as a couple and as a family. We want to effectively develop families, who are anchored firmly in God's Word. We appreciate those of you who partner with us in this effort. FamilyLife Today could not exist if it weren't for friends, like you, who help support this ministry with your donations. Thank you for the part you play in helping to make FamilyLife Today possible.  By the way, if you'd like a copy of Barbara Rainey's new book, we are making that available to anyone who makes a donation today. You can go online at FamilyLifeToday.com make an online donation and get a copy of the book. Or request the book when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY and make a donation. Or you can mail your donation to us, along with your request for Barbara's book.  24:00 Our address is FamilyLife Today, PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223.  We want to talk more tomorrow about how a wife can stay positive and stay focused on affirming her husband, even when things aren't going well / even when he's not doing a great job. We're going to talk more about that tomorrow. Hope you can tune in. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Praising the Positive Guest:                         Barbara Rainey                    From the series:       Letters to My Daughters (Day 2 of 2)  Bob: Barbara Rainey has some advice for wives. She says, when you're husband messes up—and, by the way, he will—when it happens, how you respond may determine whether he learns anything from his mistake or not.  Barbara: If you rail on him, and if you criticize him, and you tell him how stupid it was that he made that decision, he may not learn the lesson that God wanted for him; and he may have to repeat it again. The best thing that a wife can do is trust God, even when it's hard, and ask God to use it for good in their life and that God would use it to grow him in that area where he just blew it royally. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, April 28th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. The words you say have profound power in your marriage relationship. We'll examine that subject with Barbara Rainey today. Stay tuned. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. Have you ever stopped to just ponder who you would be: (A) if you had been single all your life or (B) if you'd married somebody other than Barbara? Dennis: Yes; I guess I have because I tried to marry a young lady from SMU before Barbara and I started dating.  Bob: You proposed? Dennis: She didn't want to marry me. No, no. It wasn't at that point. Bob: It was clear enough that you didn't—  Dennis: But there was a DTR—a “define the relationship.” Bob: Yes. Dennis: How she defined it and how I defined it—[Laughter]—“Thumbs down, baby!” Bob: Okay. Dennis: “Thumbs down!! You're out of here!” [Laughter]  2:00 It was good because—it was okay because I wasn't in search of a myth. I wanted a real relationship with a real person.  Back to the previous part of the question, though, Bob: “Have I ever thought about who I would be if I hadn't married Barbara and was single?” I have. I don't visit that picture very often because that's a horror film. [Laughter] Bob: Pretty ugly; huh? [Laughter] Dennis: She's laughing really hard because she knows what happened behind the curtain. [Laughter] Bob: Are you saying, “Amen,” to that? Is that what— Barbara: No, I just think that's funny that he said it would be a horror film because I don't think it would be that bad. Dennis: Well, I don't know what you would compare marriage to—that teaches you how to love, that instructs you in how to sacrifice for another person, to care for, to cherish, to nourish, and to call you away from yourself and force—  3:00 —I mean, if you're going to do marriage God's way, it is the greatest discipleship tool that has ever been created in the history of the universe. It demands that both a husband and a wife pick up their cross, follow Christ, deny themselves, and ask God, “Okay, God, what do You want me to do in this set of circumstances?” Bob: And that's true. It works both ways—for husbands and wives—but our focus this week is on the responsibility a wife has—the privilege she has / the assignment she has—from God to be the helper that He's created her to be.  Barbara, we're talking about some of the themes that are found in your book, Letters to My Daughters, which is just out. We're getting a lot of great feedback from women who have gotten copies of this book and started reading it.  Some women recoil at the idea that they're called to be helpers—it sounds demeaning to them. Your book affirms that it's a noble thing that God is calling wives to.  4:00 Barbara: It is a very noble assignment that God has given us. It's equally noble, I think, to the calling that God has put on a man's life too. What makes it even better is that, together, marriage is a high and holy calling—it says that in Scripture. It also says that it's a mystery. I think that's the part that we wish God hadn't said about it because it would be nice if it was a little bit more black and white / more obvious. But God says it is a mystery. God is an artist / God is an author—God didn't make robots. So figuring this out—this uniqueness / this relationship that Dennis and I have that's unlike anybody else's relationship on the planet—just as your marriage with Mary Ann is unlike anybody else's on the planet—the ingenuity of God to create these little duos all over the planet that represent Him / that are a picture of Christ and the Church—all of that mystery is profound and baffling.  5:00 We wish sometimes that marriage was a whole lot easier, but it illustrates that marriage is a very high and noble calling. We think it is drudgery / we think it's dispensable—and it's not. Dennis: Yes. In the book that Barbara has written, called Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife, you quote Mike Mason. Speaking of mysteries, he wrote a book called The Mystery of Marriage. This comes from that book—he says this: “Love convinces a couple that they are the greatest romance that has ever been, that no two people have ever loved as they do, and that they will sacrifice absolutely anything in order to be together.” Then I love the conclusion to the statement. It says, “Then marriage asks them to prove it.” Well, that's what's at stake. You've got this noble relationship that wasn't created by man—it was created by Almighty God.  6:00 His image is stamped all over a marriage that seeks to follow His blueprints for what He wants us to do. He's trying to teach us how to love—how to love sacrificially / how to give up our lives on behalf of another. You're never going to be able to do it if you try to have it your way.  Bob: I would love for you to expand on something that I just had to stop and ponder for a second. You said what a wife believes about her husband is the starting place for everything she says or doesn't say about her husband.  Barbara: Yes. Bob: And what you believe about Dennis is the starting place for everything you say or don't say about him. Barbara: Correct. Bob: Unpack that for me. Barbara: Well, let me explain something about photography that I think will help answer your question for you. Anybody, who has ever used a 35mm camera that has a lens that you turn so you can focus, understands the principle that the person who is holding the camera chooses what's going to be in that image.  7:00 You can choose a broad panorama and you can get as much in that frame as you can get, or you may choose to tighten that zoom lens and focus on somebody's eyes only. You've got great choice, as the photographer, in what you're going to get in that lens of the camera. And the same is true in marriage. I have complete control over what people know about my husband. If I'm talking about Dennis and I talk about his faults, or I talk about how crummy it is that he just doesn't ever do this and I think it's terrible that he doesn't ever do that, anybody who hears that description that I just made of him will think of him that way. When they think of him, they're going to remember that. But, on the other hand, if I choose to leave that out of the description, and instead, I choose to describe him for my friends, or my small group, or wherever I am talking about him, and I say: “You know, one of the things that I appreciate about Dennis is that he really makes our family a priority.  8:00 “Yes, he travels. Yes; sometimes he has to say late and work / sometimes he is gone on the weekends, but I know that his heart is to make our family a priority.” That's focusing the lens of my camera on what is good and what is right about my husband. If he knows that I'm saying that about him, he's going to want to live up to that expectation. Bob: So some wives will hear you say that and say: “You want me to airbrush my husband. You want me to just brush away and pretend like all those flaws that are there just don't exist and just pretend like he's better than he is.” Barbara: Okay. And I would say to her: “How does God see you? Is God pointing out to you the hundreds of things that you do wrong every day? Um, I don't think so. He's very gentle and very gracious, and He shows us one thing at a time that we do wrong.” 9:00 I just think: “Okay, you want to call it airbrushing? Alright, I'll take that—it may be airbrushing—but I would rather focus on what he does right than what he does wrong because—when I focus on what he does wrong, and I have done that—all I can see are the things he does wrong. They grow and they just become these huge things. I become obsessed with everything that's wrong and everything he's not doing that's right. And that's not fun! I don't like that about me!  “I don't want him to be focusing on all my weaknesses and all my flaws. I don't want him talking about my weaknesses and flaws to other people because I don't like them / I don't want to be known for what is wrong with me. I want to be known for what I do well and what I do right. So the same is true for him. So, yes, I airbrush it—I don't talk about the things that he does wrong, or his weaknesses, or his flaws. That's for him to deal with before the Lord. That's not my business—that's his business.” Bob: You're not living in denial about those things? Barbara: No; no. 10:00 Dennis: That doesn't mean that the airbrush doesn't get turned off at a point.  Bob: And the flaws are exposed? [Laughter] Barbara: Well, or that I talk about them with him from time to time. Dennis: Yes. Bob: And you're not being unrealistic about the nature of your relationship. Barbara: No. Bob: But I think what I hear you saying—and this goes back to where we started—what a wife says about her husband is going to begin with what she's thinking about her husband. Barbara: Correct. Bob: And she can choose— Barbara: Correct. Bob: —whether to dwell on all of his flaws or whether to set her mind on those things that are his virtues. Barbara: Yes. Bob: And every husband's got at least a couple of them; right? Barbara: Well, if he doesn't, why did you marry him? I mean, all of us got married because we admired something about this man that we fell in love with. So focus on those things. I remember, years and years ago, when we were in a new church that we were a part of—it was a fairly small church—and we had this community group of other couples that we met together every couple of weeks.  11:00 I remember standing in a small group of maybe three or four of us. This wife started talking about her husband—she was talking negatively about her husband. I'll never forget that uncomfortable feeling that all of us in that little, tiny circle felt. We just felt kind of: “Ouch! Oooh! That hurts! I don't know that I want to hear that about your husband.”  And then, out of the corner of my eye, I saw him, standing not that far away. I think he had heard what she said. I have just never forgotten that picture, even though it was probably 30 years ago / maybe 20 years ago—but it was a long time ago—because I saw what the power of her words did. I saw what it did to me—it made me, as a listener, uncomfortable. It made me wonder about him, as a man. And then, when I saw that he heard, it was like an ice pick to his heart. I realized how powerful our words are as wives. 12:00 So my whole intention in what I share in this chapter about this is to help women understand that your words are very, very significant. Those who hear them are going to be influenced by what we say. Dennis: There's a proverb that is so applicable here—Proverbs 18:21: “Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruits.” Barbara: Yes. Dennis: So you literally have the opportunity to use your tongue like a paint brush to paint a positive picture, or like an ice pick to tear another person down. To the woman, who is listening to us—or for that matter, a man, who may be listening in right now—if you're a critical person / if you're negative, you need to ask God to do a work in your soul.  13:00 You know, no one wants to be in the corner of an attic with a cranky woman or a cranky man, who is bitter, and negative, and all they can do is find fault. That's not who you want to grow old with. What you need to ask—you need to ask God to do a work in your soul and to help release you from being critical of your husband or your wife and find a way to begin to focus on—as Barbara is calling women to do here—to focus on that which is positive in their spouse / why you married them in the first place and what you like about them. Brag on your wife / brag on your husband in front of the kids. Bob: One of the things Dennis has shared over the years—you've heard him say it—your belief in him has been massive in terms of his confidence in doing what God's called him to do. I'm just wondering: “Was that just natural to express belief in him? Was that just something that came instinctively to you; or were you conscious and deliberate about saying: ‘I need to verbalize to him. I need to express confidence in him'?” 14:00 Barbara: The answer is, “Yes,” to both because I think most of us women, when we first get married, we marry this guy because we believe in him—we think he's the greatest. Most women marry with those thoughts, those feelings, and those emotions. I think that what happens is—when we do get disillusioned, and we do find discouragements, and we butt heads because we're different—that belief can come down with it. Then, that's when it becomes a choice. In the beginning, it was really easy for me to believe in him because I just did believe in him—that's why I married him. But then there come those times, farther into the relationship, when belief becomes a choice. So rather than expressing—and it's not that I don't express fear / it's not that I don't express anxiety because I express plenty of that—but the bottom line is: “In the end, no matter what, I believe in you. I believe that God is at work in your life and in our marriage. I believe that God is going to see us through this, and I'm going to be with you there to the bitter end.” 15:00 Dennis: And what I'd want a woman to know is—that no matter how competent and confident a man looks, whether he's young or whether he's older / it does not matter—there isn't a man, within the reach of my voice right now over the radio across the country, who doesn't need his wife's steady and certain words of affirmation and belief. He needs it. I don't care if he says nothing to you when you say it. The words are sinking and soaking into his soul because there are not that many people in a lifetime—in fact, I'd ask the question, “Is there anyone who goes a lifetime with you and who believes in you all the way to the end?” The answer is, “Who would it be?” Bob: Yes. Dennis: “Who's going to do that?” That's the nature of marriage!  16:00 When you say, “I take you ‘til death do us part, for better or for worse, in riches and in being poor,”—wow! It's the pay-off! Barbara: Yes. Dennis: It's not always easy. We're not trying to paint some kind of rosy picture here, but it is a necessity. Bob: There has to have been a time—and I don't know if it will come to mind immediately for you or not—but a time when you were facing a decision and you were thinking, “I think we should do this.” And Dennis was thinking, “No, I think we should do this.” And you said: “Okay, I'm going to trust you. I'm going to follow you”; and it turned out that it would have been better off if you'd have done it your way. I'm just wondering—for a wife in that situation, where she says, “I think this is the right thing to do,” and the husband says, “We're going this way,” and they go down a dead-end and the wife finds herself, in that moment, thinking, “If he'd have just listened to me, we'd be in a lot better shape right now than we are!”—  17:00 —what does she do in that moment? Barbara: Well, I can't think of a specific time; but there have been times like, for instance, driving in the car, when he would choose to go one way and I was thinking, “I don't think that's the right way!” And, sure enough, it wasn't. That hasn't happened very often, but it has happened. I remember one time, early in our marriage, when we were discussing a financial decision. I don't remember thinking it was a bad decision at the time; but it was a bad decision, and it cost us financially.  Regardless, it doesn't really matter—if it's a big thing or a small thing—because the choice is still the same in the end for a wife; that is: “Even when he makes bad decisions—and he will / when he decides to do things that will cost you—and he will—will you still believe in him? Will you still trust God? Will you put your faith in God's sovereignty that God can turn this into good in his life?”  18:00 Maybe that's exactly what he needed to experience to grow in the way God wanted him to grow. If you rail on him, and if you criticize him, and you tell him how stupid it was that he made that decision, he may not learn the lesson that God wanted for him; and he may have to repeat it again. The best thing that a wife can do is trust God, even when it's hard, and ask God to use it for good in their life and that God would use it to grow him in that area, where he just blew it royally, because men are going to make big mistakes. It's how we respond to that mistake that will make the difference in whether he benefits from it or he can't benefit from it because he's been beat up by his wife. Dennis: This is not an easy message for a lot of listeners to hear, but I just want you to comment on why you decided to write a book that is called Letters to My Daughters to call them to the art / the biblical art of being a wife because you're calling them to a high standard. 19:00 Barbara: Yes. Dennis: These are our daughters and our daughters-in-law.  Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Why did you want to do that? Barbara: Well, I think our culture has lost the vision for what marriage can be—what it was intended to be. Yes, we have all seen countless examples of marriage done the wrong way, but that doesn't mean marriage is broken. It means the people are broken who are in it. I want the next generation to understand that marriage is really worth working on—it is transformative, it is redemptive, it is holy. There are so many good things about marriage; but we don't see those good things, commonly, in our culture—we see all the negatives. I tell the story of: “What would it be like if you went to the Louvre Museum in Paris, with all these magnificent art works? And what if, while you were standing in line to get your ticket, there was an earthquake?  20:00 “And after you got your ticket, you walked in and half of these masterpieces were lying on the floor. There were still half of them on the wall / there were still statues and all of these magnificent things around—what would your eyes be drawn to? Your eyes would be drawn to the tragedy, to the loss, to the broken pieces lying all over the floor.”  I think that's a picture of our culture. We see all of these wrecked marriages—we see these abused women, we see these lost men, we see the damaged children—and we just think: “Marriage is hopeless. Why should I even try?” What I want to do in this book is say: “Look at what's on the wall! Look at what God has said. Look at what God has designed. That is our goal. Don't get distracted by the broken pieces. It's tragic, it's wrong, it's sad; but the institution of marriage is still worthy. It's still worth striving for.  21:00 God didn't make a mistake when He made marriage. We're the ones who are messing it up. Dennis: And Bob, I think about what FamilyLife is talking about all this year in our 40th anniversary of doing ministry—calling people back to their anniversary and back to their commitment—around the whole concept of the Proud Sponsor of Anniversaries™. What Barbara is challenging people with is—just because people have failed, don't give up on what the Bible—the transcendent beauty and model of the Scriptures and what it's calling us to be, as human beings—to call us away from our selfishness, to call us to the biblical model of following Jesus Christ, and training our kids to do the same.  I'm going to tell you something—there's a lot on the line in every marriage that is listening to us right now. Generations are on the line— 22:00 —your children! The best picture that they'll ever see, apart from the Scriptures, of what a real marriage ought to be is your marriage.  Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Even in its imperfections, it can display what Barbara is talking about—the nobility / the grandeur. Your kids will see something—that they are going to say: “You know what? Mom and Dad could have ended it, but they didn't! They experienced the redemption of Jesus Christ. I want what they've got! When I get married, I want one of those! And I'm not going to settle for anything less.” The way they get it is by absorbing your teaching about Jesus Christ, following Him, and deciding to make their parents' faith their own. But that means the parents need to have it first. Bob: Well, and I would say that part of the way they get it, too, is by aligning themselves with God's design for us—as men and women / as husbands and wives—the unique assignment God has for us.  23:00 It's one of the issues you're addressing, Barbara, as you talk to young wives about what it means for them to be godly wives. I'd just encourage our listeners—get a copy of Barbara's book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. This is a book that we're making available this month to folks who make a donation to help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today.  You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com—make an online donation. You can call 1-800-FL-TODAY—make a donation over the phone; or you can mail a donation to us and request a copy of Barbara's book, Letters to My Daughters. We're happy to send it out to you as a “Thank you,” for your support of the ministry of FamilyLife. We couldn't do what we do if it weren't for folks, like you, helping to support this ministry. So “Thanks,” in advance, for whatever gift you're able to help with. We're happy to send you Barbara's new book, Letters to My Daughters, when you get in touch with us—again, online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-358-6329; that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” 24:00 Now, tomorrow, we're going to hear Barbara and a number of other women interacting in a panel conversation that took place a few years ago with a large crowd of women. You were talking about God's design for you, as a woman, as a wife, and as a mom. We'll hear that dialogue tomorrow. I hope our listeners can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Surviving the Seasons of Intimacy Guest:                        Barbara Rainey                                From the series:       Letters to My Daughters (Day 2 of 2)  Bob: Why does it seem like moms are often not that interested in marital intimacy? Barbara Rainey understands. Barbara: It's hard to have a good, healthy, dynamic sexual relationship when you're tired all of the time. You're being pulled in a hundred directions by jobs, and kids, and financial stresses, and everything else; and, yet, I would still say that it's important to keep it a priority because, if you don't, you're vulnerable to the enemy / you're vulnerable to the temptation to find that excitement somewhere else. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, February 7th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Barbara Rainey joins us today to talk about how she worked to make intimacy a priority in her marriage when there were six kids still living at home. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. With the season of romance and love in the air—and let me just remind some of the husbands who are listening—Valentine's Day is coming up. You may want to put that on your calendar or on your reminder list so that you don't arrive at that day and find yourself empty-handed. I've had that experience—it's not a fun experience when that happens. [Laughter] Do you know what I'm talking about? Dennis: No. [Laughter] Bob: Yes; you do! Dennis: Forty-four years; and I'm batting a thousand, Bob! [Laughter] Bob: Are you? Dennis: Ask her! She's here with us! Bob: We have an eye witness here. Barbara Rainey is joining us. Is that true? Has he never missed a Valentine's Day? Has he always had a card, or a gift, or something? Dennis: I've always shown up! Bob: Showing up is something else! [Laughter] Barbara: You have been present.  2:00 Although, I don't know that you've always been present on Valentine's because of travel. Dennis: Oh, yes! That's probably true. Barbara: Yes. Bob: Well, we thought it would be helpful today to discuss the area of sex, and intimacy, and romance, especially since this is something, Barbara—that you wrote about in your book that is now almost a year old—it's called Letters to My Daughters. Chapter 6 was all about helping your daughters and other young wives understand what's going on with this aspect of a marriage relationship. Dennis: And, at this point, I want to read a P.S. that Barbara puts at the end of one of these letters. Now, the book has nine chapters. There's only one chapter on sex, but it's a long chapter; and there are like half a dozen letters that pose a question to Barbara that she answers in the book. I just want to read this:  P.S. There are additional unseen benefits to regular sexual relations in marriage.  3:00 Three little facts I learned from one of our FamilyLife Today radio guests: Number one: The chemicals oxytocin and dopamine, when released in the brain, increase bonding; the reexpression of love and commitment strengthens mutual affection; and there is a sense of satisfaction in keeping intimacy alive, even if the actual experience isn't a great one. The last is my favorite, because in our marriage…  Now, this is really interesting for me to read on air; because, Bob, you know, we have people come up to us and they say: “You guys! All you do is present a perfect picture of marriage!” Bob: Yes. Dennis: Well, I'm about to dispel that [Laughter] in what I'm about to read that my wife wrote in this book! The last one is my favorite, because in our marriage, sex hasn't always been accompanied by fireworks! Among a lot of good-to-great experiences, we've also had some pretty lousy encounters… 4:00 Did you really write that in this book?! Barbara: I did. [Laughter] And I can tell you still don't like it very much. Dennis: I don't; I don't. [Laughter] I complained about this when I edited it, but you didn't take it out. …some pretty lousy encounters…some that left us both either disappointed or hurt. That makes the chemical facts all the more important, because even not-great sex still bonds us together. Nice to know, huh? [Laughter] Dennis: Honestly, I really appreciate Barbara's honesty about our marriage, because I think a lot of people out there are hurting. They think they're the only ones that ever had a lousy encounter around the sexual relationship. Bob: When you and Dennis, together, wrote the book, Rekindling the Romance, you talked about seasons of a marriage. Barbara: Yes. Bob: You talked about early love, and then you talked about, kind of, this middle season—  Barbara: Yes. Bob: —where it just can kind of get routine.  5:00 A lot of husbands and wives, in the middle of raising kids and going through things—they hit that season and they think to one another, “This is it?” They're frustrated and they're disappointed. They wonder, if they switch partners, if things would get better for them. Dennis: Or, let me tell you this—Barbara spoke to one group of women who talked about a no-sex marriage, where people just give up / toss in the towel and say, “We're done.” Bob: And we've talked to couples, who have said, “It's been two years” / “…three years since we've been intimate with one another. We're committed, and we still love each other; but we've just kind of given up on that area of our marriage.” You would say to a wife, who says, “We've given up and we're content, and it's working out for us,”—what would you say? Barbara: I would say that's a dangerous assumption. I think that it's a very real possibility in a lot of marriages, because— 6:00 —you're right—there is a middle ground in marriage, where it's just hard work; because you have so many demands on both of your lives. There's not much energy left over; there's not much enthusiasm; there's not much rest. It's hard to have a good, healthy, dynamic sexual relationship when you're tired all of the time. You're being pulled in a hundred directions by jobs, and kids, and financial stresses, and everything else.  Yet, I would still say that it's important to keep it a priority; because if you don't, you're vulnerable to the enemy / you're vulnerable to the temptation to find that excitement somewhere else, which is why there are so many affairs. There are so many couples, who are splitting up and finding new partners, because it is exciting. They're finding that excitement that they once had in the early days of their marriage. 7:00 But it's not going to satisfy; it's not going to replace; it's not going to be better. It's actually going to be more complicated.  I really believe, and I've repeated it multiple times in my book, that God is big enough to change any marriage. I strongly believe that His Word is true when He said, “Nothing is too hard for Me.” You may look at your marriage, and you may go: “This is impossible! This is just too hard! I don't think there's any way out.” I want you to know—I've felt that way. I remember feeling that way at different times in those middle years of marriage, when we were swamped with kids and life. It felt too hard; but I knew that God meant what He said when He said, “Nothing is impossible for Me.” So, therefore, if I believe in God—and I do—then I have to take Him at His Word. I have to go to Him and say: “This feels impossible. This feels too difficult, but I know that You can bring life back to our marriage.”  8:00 If you don't quit, then there's always the hope of the redemption—there's the hope of God bringing new life back into your marriage. But when you quit, you've basically slammed the door on the possibility of God working a miracle. I think that's a tragedy. Dennis: And there's a biblical admonition that Paul gives us from 1 Corinthians, Chapter 7. He said, “The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise, the wife to her husband.” It goes on to talk about the wife doesn't have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and the husband doesn't have authority over his body, but the wife does. What I think Paul is exhorting us to here is that you've got to pay attention to one of the strongest drives in humanity. I got to thinking about this, and there are really only a couple of drives, I think, such as the need for oxygen and the need for water and food that would supplant sexuality.  9:00 Bob: You think survival might be a little ahead? Dennis: Well, those are both survival categories; but the point is—the urge for two people to merge was put there by God. I've thought about this many times. It's a good thing, in most marriages, that one of the two of you has a stronger desire to be with the other in the area of sexuality. Why? Because if one of you didn't have a pursuit, what might happen? You'd just have two people, spinning plates, off doing their own thing, and occasionally coming back, like roommates at a house to be able to maybe touch each other with eyesight, but never emotionally—never in depth, with a true, real relationship—the way God designed it in marriage. I think God, in His ingenuity, has made something powerful here that too often has been called “dirty.”  10:00 It really is a healthy desire for two people to become one.  Bob: So this brings up the issue, then, Barbara: “How would you coach a wife? Is it ever appropriate for her to say, ‘No, not now / not tonight—I'm not interested right now.' How should she say that? And what are the legitimate reasons for her to say, ‘I can't be with you'? Is it because, ‘I'm too tired,' or because, ‘You hurt me the other day'? What works here?” Barbara: Well, first of all, I think she does have a responsibility to be honest with her husband. I think that faking it—faking being together sexually—is not going to accomplish anything. If there is emotional distance between you—and you're feeling hurt because of something he said or if you really are so exhausted that you just can't function anymore that day—those are real life issues that we all deal with and we all feel. 11:00 The purpose of sex and of coming together is for intimacy—it's for transparency / it's for sharing our lives together. I don't think there's anything wrong with delaying it—I don't think there's anything wrong with a woman expressing how she feels or what her needs are—because to not do that is being disingenuous / that's not transparency. If the goal is transparency / the goal is intimacy and oneness, you have to be real / you have to be honest. Now, the way you do that, I think, is what's most important. That is, you can say, “I just can't tonight,” or “I feel like we've got to finish talking about this argument that we had two days ago,” or whatever it might be.  It's the way in which you communicate that that matters to your husband. It must be done with respect; it must be done with commitment; it must be done with love. You say something like: “I need you to know what I'm feeling. Can we talk about this now, or should we talk about it later?”  12:00 “I need some resolution in this area of our relationship.” If you communicate that you're committed to him and you say: “I'm committed to you, and I'm going to work this out. I want to be with you, just not tonight,” or “…just not right now.” I think that's perfectly acceptable as long as “not right now” doesn't turn into two years. I think it needs to be an agreement between a husband and a wife—they talk about it, and they find a solution together that works for both of them. It has to be mutual. Bob: That's 1 Corinthians 7 again; isn't it? Dennis: It is. Paul goes on to say: “Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement, for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer. But then, come back together again so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.” I mean, we live in a highly-sexualized culture.  13:00 We've got to understand one another.  Here's where Barbara's book does an outstanding job of helping young wives, and for that matter, older wives understand their husbands in this area—and how they are made by God—and that it's good—it's not bad / it's not evil.. They should bless their husband and not ignore him. If you need to say, “Not tonight, Sweetheart,” don't ignore it tomorrow night, and the next night, and the next night, and the next night. Bob: So the wife who is feeling, tonight: “I think he might be interested. I just—maybe if I just go to bed early—I don't say anything / I just fall— you know, he comes in and finds me asleep. Then, he'll leave me alone.” She gets a little passive-aggressive with how she handles this. She finds ways to dodge or avoid. Dennis: Do you think a guy doesn't know this? Barbara: Yes! He does. Dennis: Yes; he does! Bob: So, to that wife—you'd say: “It's time to get this out in the open and have the conversation”? 14:00 Barbara: Yes; I do. I think it's much better to talk about it. I mean, I think it's a temptation for all of us women to want to kind of just avoid it and hope it will go away when we're too tired, or overwhelmed, or whatever. But making it go away isn't the solution. It's not the solution to any kind of a disagreement, or an impasse, or something that's between you, as husband and wife. It's like the part that Dennis read earlier from my book—even not-so-great sex is bonding. It's remembering what's true / it's remembering the value that God places on your marriage and on the sexual part of your marriage relationship. It's going to him and saying: “I am really exhausted, but I sense that you might be interested in making love tonight,” or “…having sex tonight. Can we talk about that? Can we talk about a solution? Can we figure out what we want to do together so that we're mutually agreeing?” She's not controlling by being passive, and going to sleep ahead of time, and hoping he won't notice.  15:00 Does that make sense? Bob: It does! What do you say, then, to the wife who says, “You know what? Thirty pounds ago, he was attractive. Today, I'm just not attracted to him.” Or she says, “Thirty pounds ago, I felt attractive.  Barbara: Yes. Bob: “And now, I don't feel desirable. Even though he says he's interested, I think, ‘How can you be? Because I look at myself in the mirror and I don't feel attractive.'” What do you say about those issues? Barbara: Well, I think those are just further reflections of our need for transparency and our need for oneness. We got married to be acceptable to one another. We got married to know one another in our strengths and in our weaknesses. So when we gain weight or when things change about us, are we still committed? Are we still called to love one another? Are we still committed to making our marriage all that God wants it to be for as long as we both shall live?  Well, we have to learn to love one another in our weaknesses.  16:00 We have to learn to love one another in our imperfections. Yes; it may have been easier when you were both in your 20s and you were both—whatever attracted you to each other—but marriage wasn't built for just when we're in our 20s. Marriage was built for a lifetime. You are going to go through trials and difficulties, and both of you are going to change. Is God big enough to give you the kind of love that will last?—the kind of intimacy that you got married for in those years when you are challenged with health issues, or weight issues, or whatever it is? Dennis: And I know a dad who took his daughters aside—they had several daughters—and he just talked to them about the importance of your attractiveness to your husband: “You need to do your job of being the best—the very best—magnet you can be to your man.” Now, we all know that there are these superstar models out there.  Bob: Right. 17:00 Dennis: You're never going to be able to compete at that level, but you know what? You can be a beautiful, attractive wife to your husband. One of the things I appreciate about Barbara is—even when she says she doesn't feel pretty, she's still incredibly attractive to me. I just appreciated her for how she's paid attention to the process of aging. I mean, 44 years—that means our listeners know we're no longer teenagers in our 20s; okay? Forty-four years of marriage—I mean, you've got a lot of gravity to fight by the time you get there. So the point is: “Do you care enough to love your husband in the way that speaks love to him?” Barbara: And it's not just about the exterior; because I think what we're talking about right now—people tend to think it's the exterior. It's not! What makes a person beautiful—what makes a man or a woman beautiful—is our hearts.  18:00 If we pay attention to our hearts, we pay attention to learning to love well, and to do what God has called us to do as men and as women, then we're going to be attractive to one another. Because when Dennis serves me, and denies himself for me, and when he does the kinds of things that I know cost him something—and he's doing it because he loves me—that's attractive to me. I mean, I appreciate that / I respond to that. Any woman alive will do that; because, when she sees a man sacrificing for her—we're just built to respond to that—and vice-versa—when women serve their husbands and love their husbands, that's what makes us attractive. Bob: We've been focusing on your counsel to young wives because, again, that's the subject of the book you've written: Letters to My Daughters. I did want to, before we're done, go back 22 years and let our listeners hear a clip of advice that you shared for husbands in this area of sex and romance, back when we recorded a series on FamilyLife Today, back in 1995—   19:00 Dennis: This is scary! [Laughter] Barbara: It is! Bob: —called—do you remember 1995? Do you remember being 22 years younger than you are now? Barbara: Yes, but that was a long time ago! [Laughter] Bob: Well, we're going to hear this clip in just a minute. Let me, first, let our listeners know how they can get a copy of your book, Letters to My Daughters. It's a book that we've got in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can go online at our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, and order your copy of Barbara Rainey's book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. You can also order a copy when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the number is 1-800-358-6329; 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” By the way, when you're on the website at FamilyLifeToday.com, there's a banner there that says, “Romance Me.”  20:00 If you click that, there's a quiz you can take to talk about your romantic style and your spouse's romantic style and to see where there's compatibility and where there might be areas for growth. Click on that when you're on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com. You can share the romance quiz with friends on Facebook® or on Twitter®. We just thought this would be something fun for you to do and just see how you match up in the area of romance. Let me also say a quick word of thanks to those folks who made today's program possible—it's those of you who support this ministry. Particularly, we want to thank those of you who are monthly Legacy Partners and who provide the financial stability / the backbone for this daily radio program. You really are partners with us in this outreach to marriages and families, all around the world, as we work to effectively develop godly marriages and families. We appreciate your partnership with us. 21:00 If you're able to help with a donation today, we'd love to say, “Thank you,” by sending you Dennis and Barbara Rainey's devotional book called Moments with You. It's our thank-you gift if you make a one-time donation or if you make your first gift as a Legacy Partner. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com to find out more or to make a donation. Orcall 1-800-FL-TODAY, and you can donate over the phone. Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. Now, we promised our listeners that they were going to get a chance to hear some advice that you shared to husbands. We were recording a series called “Creating a More Romantic Marriage.” We were just asking you to help husbands understand how women think on this issue of romance, and intimacy, and sex in marriage. Dennis: Is this the story about Saran Wrap? [Laughter] Barbara: No!! [Laughter] Bob: Stop it! 22:00 Barbara: It's a story about “a + b = c”; right? Bob: Ah, she knows where we're headed! [Laughter] Listen to this clip from 22 years ago: [Previous Interview] Barbara: I don't think that a woman wants to feel pegged; I don't think she wants to feel figured out, button-holed, taken advantage of—whatever you want to call it. I think that that defeats the essence of love. Again, I think that a husband needs to live with her in an understanding way, and to love her as Christ loved the church, and then she will respond to that. Bob: So it sounds to me like the message here to men is: “Once you've found what really communicates love to your wife,—  Dennis: —“don't ever do that again!” [Laughter] Bob: That's right. Barbara: Noooo! Bob: — “she will realize it, and she will change the rules. Barbara: That's not true. Bob: “And tomorrow it's going to be something completely different!” [Laughter] Barbara: It makes us sound schizophrenic. Bob: But that's what it feels like for men sometimes! Barbara: I know! Dennis: Well, it feels like it to a man—that, here, he is doing his best to love his wife— Barbara: I understand. Dennis: —and she throws away the rule book. Barbara: I do. 23:00 Dennis: And she says: “I don't want a rule book. I don't want to be figured out.” Barbara: It sounds awful! [Laughter] It really does. Bob: But it's true; isn't it? Barbara: Well, I really do think it's true. I really do, and it's not that she doesn't want those things done again. It's not that you bring her flowers two or three times and she loves it; and then, all of a sudden, she feels like she's been pegged and she doesn't ever want them again for the rest of her life. I think there needs to be variety / there needs to be creativity. She needs to feel like he's thinking about her in different ways at different times and not just the same old, prescribed pattern.  [Studio] Bob: So, 22 years later, it still can't be a formula. Is that what you're saying?  Barbara: That is correct. It cannot be a formula. Women still want to be pursued / we still want to be figured out. I think it's a very good thing. Dennis: I'm Dennis Rainey, and that's real family life! [Laughter] Bob: I was waiting for you to say, “I approve this message,”— Barbara: Yes!  Bob: —but you didn't say that; did you? Barbara: No. Dennis: That was back last fall—we can't say that anymore. [Laughter]  24:00 No; it's really important that men live with their wives in an understanding way and that a husband understands that his wife needs to be loved. That's a lifetime assignment. What communicates love to your wife will be different than mine, and what communicates love to your wife today will be different in a decade. It will grow / it will mature.  I'll tell you what you have, as you move into the twilight years of life, you're going to have a great relationship that you wouldn't want to swap out with anybody, even though there've been some very, very difficult times. Bob: FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com   

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Keys to a Healthy Marriage Guest:                         Barbara Rainey                    From the series:       Letters to My Daughters (Day 1 of 2)  Bob: Barbara Rainey likens intimacy in marriage to a secret garden—a place that only a husband and wife go together. She says it's a risky place.Barbara: It is a place of raw exposure. It is a place of being real with one another. It is the place where we are most transparent in our marriage relationship, so we need the walls of a commitment. Both of us need the security and the comfort of knowing that we've got a perimeter around our marriage much like a rock wall around a secret garden. We need that commitment to be in place.Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, February 6th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey. I'm Bob Lepine. We'll talk today about how a husband and wife can work together to cultivate the secret garden of their marriage. Stay with us.1:00And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. It's been almost a year now since the release of your wife's book, Letters to My Daughters. We're finally getting around to Chapter 6— Dennis: You've got— Barbara: —which rhymes with—[Laughter] Dennis: —you've got a cheesy grin on your face. Bob: You—you know, Chapter— Dennis: The listeners can't see your face! [Laughter] Bob: —six!—six. If you replace one letter in “six,” you get an idea of what we're going to be talking about— Dennis: Well— Bob: —today. Dennis: Barbara's book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife, has flown off the shelf. It's really doing well. I understand why, because I think this is Barbara's best book ever. It is certainly a very honest look at our marriage. I want to welcome her back to the broadcast. Thanks for coming back in, Sweetheart. Barbara: I'm happy to be here. Dennis: I know you are. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: I know you are. Since we're going to talk about s—s—s— Bob: Sex. Just say it—sex. Dennis: Chapter 6. Barbara: It is not that hard for you to say! [Laughter] 2:00 Bob: You've heard him say it before?  Barbara: I don't think it's that hard for him to say! [Laughter] Dennis: I just want to pray for our audience; because as I was preparing to come in here, reading Barbara's book, I thought: “You know? Oh my! How broken are we as human beings—how many different perspectives we come at this subject.” There are some listeners who've been hurt deeply by their past choices and some are in present relationships. I just want God to intervene and minister to—whether they're single, married, divorced, single parents—I just want to ask God to meet every person where they are:  Father, You made us, male and female. There is no surprise in terms of how we function. You made us to merge together and become one.  3:00 Yet, what You designed, man has degenerated and has twisted. You know that as well.  You know where each listener is, who is tuning in to our broadcast today. I just would ask You to be gentle with each of them. Use these broadcasts, I pray, to minister to them just where they are. Produce some hope, some help, and some encouragement to each person listening. For the guys, who are listening in, Father, I pray that they might listen with some understanding. We tend to be too quick to judgment on this subject. I pray for all of us just to be wise in terms of what we hear and what we apply. In Christ's name I pray. Amen. Bob: Amen. Barbara this is a subject that obviously is personal—it's intimate—it really does get to the core of who we are as human beings. It can be threatening for a lot of people.  4:00 I was very interested—as you invited your daughters and daughters-in-law to ask questions about marriage, the first question you got related to this—I'm just going to read it from the book——it says: “So yeah. Sex. You gave me “the talk,” and we had our pre-wedding conversation that was pretty short and hurried. No offense; it was busy. I get it. But now I'm married. And it's um…different. Fine. FINE. But, well, I have to ask this…what's the big deal?” I thought that was an interesting question from a daughter to say, “I'm in the midst of it, but I'm not sure I understand why it's as big a deal as people say it is.” Barbara: It's a great question. You know, it was one that I just had to think about a lot. Actually, I had to think about all these questions a lot because, as Dennis prayed, this topic—this part of our marriage relationship—is not easy.  5:00 It's not simple. It's not cut and dry / it's not black and white. It's very complicated; and even though it's very good, it's very complicated. My short answer to “What is the big deal?” is that it takes a long, long time to understand what God has built into us, as men and women. It takes a while to understand the purpose of sex. It takes a while to undo things that we've brought into our marriage. It just takes time. I think, in our culture today, more than in any other generation, we expect instant results in every area of our lives. We're so used to having instant access to information. We just don't know how to wait—we don't know how to persevere. We don't know how to have patience.    I think, in this area of marriage, our expectation for change to happen quickly and for results to be mastered fast, is a misplaced hope; because I think, in the long run, the goal of marriage is a marathon—  6:00 —it's a lifetime race. Figuring out why it's a big deal takes a lot of time. It's me getting to know my husband, as a man, and him getting to know me, as a woman. That isn't going to take place quickly. Dennis: If you go back to Genesis, as it describes two people becoming one—there was a progression that God declared. He said, “For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, shall cleave to his wife and the two shall become one [emphasis added].” One of the problems, Bob—and many of our listeners may be experiencing this right now—we have reversed the order. Bob: Yes. Dennis: We're trying to become one without the leaving and the cleaving—the commitment that really bonds two broken human beings hearts to one another and gives you the only chance of two broken people experiencing marriage for a lifetime, as Barbara was talking about here.  7:00 Bob: Barbara, explain to our listeners why, for a wife / for a woman this issue of a solid commitment is so critical when it comes to intimacy. Barbara: In the book I tell the story of a book that we used to read when our kids were growing up, called The Secret Garden. It's the story of a young woman / a young girl, who grew up in a huge manor estate in England. As she was growing up there, she discovered this garden; and it was a secret garden. It had walls all the way around it that were six to eight feet tall, brick or stone walls. As she dug though the ivy, she found a door. The door was locked and she couldn't get in. Over time, she began to continue to dig around. One day, she found a key and was able to unlock the door and go in.  I use that story in the book because I liken this area of our marriage—this intimacy / this sex in our marriage—to a secret garden.  8:00 It's a place that only a husband and wife go together—no one else is allowed. It is for them only. I think the reason commitment is so important is because it is a place of raw exposure—it is a place of being real with one another—it is the place where we are most transparent in our marriage relationship. We need the walls that that secret garden had. We need the walls of a commitment. We need that security, as women in particular, but men need it as well for us to experience what God intended for us to experience in marriage. Both of us need the security and the comfort of knowing that we've got a perimeter around our marriage much like a rock wall around a secret garden. We need that commitment to be in place. Bob: You're talking about something that goes far beyond just the biological experience of intimacy— 9:00 Barbara: Absolutely! Bob: —because the biology may not need that, but the oneness we're talking about here— Barbara: Correct. Bob: —really requires that we can trust one another— Dennis: Yes. Bob: —in order to be vulnerable with one another. Dennis: In fact, Bob, I think what you're hitting on here is so important. I think one of the least understood passages in Scripture—there's a reason why we can't understand it—Genesis, Chapter 2, verse 25. I'm going to read it and then I'm going to explain why we don't understand it—it says, “And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.” That verse comes right after the leave, cleave, and become one. The reason we can't understand what that means—we have never experienced what Adam and Eve did in the garden before the fall. Barbara: That's right; yes. 10:00 Dennis: Two people, totally naked, totally exposed, totally transparent with one another—and there was no shame. There was joy / there was delight—there was the experience of God and one another—there was no hiding in a marriage back then.  When it comes to the subject of sex, I think we're trying to get to that point of being naked and unashamed; but we don't know how to get there. So a lot of single people are co-habiting—they're thinking they can experience the sexual delights of marriage without the commitment— Bob: Right. Dennis: —and they can't! Barbara's talking about a commitment that creates safety around this garden. Bob: There is something about being able to say: “You're safe. I'm not going anywhere. Barbara: Yes. Bob: “I will not expose what happens here. You can be who you are and still be loved.” That's what we long for— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —and that is what is supposed to be going on in intimacy in a marriage relationship. 11:00 Barbara: That's what we get married for—we get married to be loved unconditionally. That's our expectation and our hope when we say, “I do”; but we don't realize that it's not just the physical oneness that produces that. It's all of the conversations—it's learning to be, as Dennis just said, naked and unashamed. That does not happen quickly. If you'll think about what happened in Genesis—after that verse where Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed—and then, when the fall happened, what was the first thing that Adam and Eve experienced?   Bob: Their shame. Barbara: Their shame and they were afraid. Bob: Yes. Barbara: I think we vastly underestimate the fears that we bring into marriage. All of us come into marriage with fears, even if we don't have past experiences that were negative or were difficult. We still have the fear of rejection; we have the fear of exposure; we have the fear of being known—  12:00 —just the question, “If you really knew me as I am inside—as I know I am inside—would he still love me?” A man thinks the same thing, “If she really knew what I thought—if she really knew who I was—would she still accept me?”  I think that fear—that we all bring into a marriage—takes time to expose those fears because it's a risk to do so. It takes time to work toward that place of being unashamed. It doesn't ever totally go away, because it won't until we go to heaven; but we can make great progress / we can make great strides in that comfort level that we all long for when we get married. Dennis: That's exactly right.  I have to use a present-day illustration, Bob, of something that really makes me sad—but immediately after the evening news / the local news here, there's one of these Hollywood reports. It always is telling of some breakup of some Hollywood marriage.  13:00 I really feel a great deal of compassion, because they don't understand the God who made this relationship and how He made them to function. In their lost-ness, they're just trying to reach out to one another and experience that oneness and experience the intimacy of a great relationship.  But I've got to tell you—Barbara and I have been married 44 years—and there have been a lot of incredible highs and sadly, some tough, tough lows. The thing that has kept us safe and secure in our relationship is we've never/ever used the “D” word—divorce. It has never crossed our lips. We have used the “C” word—covenant-keeping love for a lifetime. In the process of doing that, two imperfect people are wobbling their way to the finish line, attempting to represent how God designed marriage to proclaim His love to the world; because a marriage is to be a model of Christ and the church.  14:00 It is representative of a husband who loves, serves, leads, and gives his life on behalf of his wife—and a wife who supports her husband and loves him back. One of the ways they both do this is through the gift of sexual intimacy in marriage. Bob: Barbara, I had to smile when I read this letter from your daughter, saying, “So, what's the big deal?” for two reasons. One is because there is a stereotype that says: “This is how women view sex in marriage.” Men are very different. I stop to think to myself, “Would a man ever write to his father, ‘So Dad—' Barbara: “What's the big deal?” [Laughter] Bob: —“'What's the big deal? We're married now. I don't get it—what's the big deal?'” I also smiled because there's a sense in which the mystery of marital intimacy— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —is just beginning to unfold in the early days of marriage; right? 15:00 Barbara: That's a word that I use a lot in my book—is the word, “mystery,”—because I think it helps us be more at peace with the process. When we realize that marriage is a mystery—that we will never, totally understand it—because, as Dennis just said, it is a picture of Christ's relationship with us. Just accepting the fact that marriage is a mystery kind of gives you a sense of: “Ah! I can rest. I can relax.” It is a mystery and it is a process of beginning to discover what God has built in this, all along, from the very beginning. As we've been saying, it's about getting to know one another and being transparent with one another. Dennis: When we think of a mystery, we think of an unsolved murder case or a crime. Bob: —a puzzle. Dennis: Yes; exactly. This mystery is going to be revealed—[Laughter] —in heaven, in eternity, with Jesus Christ and the church at the wedding feast of the bridegroom and the bride—the church being the bride.  16:00 In between time, between now—this thing called “time”—and eternity, here you are, as a couple, hammering out your commitment and attempting to be naked and unashamed in a way that honors God. It's tough, and it's hard. I would ask you, Barbara, as a young wife might come to you—what would you say is the most important thing she needs to know as she approaches this most intimate area of the marriage relationship? What does she need to know and do? Barbara: I think the first thing she needs to know—and she may already know this—but I think it bears repeating—and that is that marriage is holy. I think that when we see it as—not just a gift, not just a privilege, not just something we get to experience—but there is an element of marriage that has a holy aspect to it; because God created it and because He lives in our lives, there is a holiness there.  17:00 I think that helps us put it in right perspective—it helps us go: “Well no wonder it's so hard! No wonder it's a challenge to discover the kind of oneness that we got married for.” Secondly, from there, I want to say, too, that I would strongly encourage any young wife to remember that it's an important part of the relationship. It's really a mirror of the rest of your relationship. You may feel like you're having good sex; but if you're not really becoming one—if you're not really being transparent with one another—then you're not going to be really growing together in other areas of your relationship.  It's important that you keep that area of your marriage healthy and growing and keep it alive. The temptation is—when it gets hard, is to just say, “Well, forget it!” but you can't give up on it because it's one of the important parts that God has built into a marriage. Because God created it and God sanctioned it, then we need to learn what He wants us to do with it—we need to figure it out. 18:00 Bob: You know a lot of wives, who are saying, “I hear you and I agree with you; and if I was not tired all the time,— Barbara: Yes. Bob: “—I would give more attention to this! But I am tired all the time! How do I make this a priority, and how do I make it important when I'm exhausted?” Barbara: Did you read that in my book? Bob: Well, I did. Yes! [Laughter] Barbara: Yes; I talk about that in the book, because that is such a common complaint for women. I get it! I was tired all the time—and Dennis used to say he would be a very wealthy man if he had a dollar for every time I said, “I am so tired!” [Laughter] Right? Dennis: Right! [Laughter] Barbara: But even if we are so tired—and we are—and a lot of women are exhausted all the time because of the responsibilities of jobs and kids—and just the emotional weight of being in life. There are just so many ups and downs that we feel so deeply; and yet, it's learning to prioritize your life.  19:00 It's deciding, during a particular day, that you're going to take a nap so you've got more energy for your husband at night or it's choosing not to add these things to your schedule so that you can have more energy and more focus for your marriage. It's choosing to keep your marriage a priority—make it a priority. That's hard to do sometimes. There were plenty of times when I would take a nap in the afternoon and I'd still be exhausted at night. Dennis: That's correct! [Laughter] Barbara: It's not a quick and easy solution. [Laughter] Dennis: I just want to insert something. There are men, who are listening right now: “That's right! She's just tired too much.” To which I would say to the guys: “Are you cleaning up the kitchen— Bob: Yes. Dennis: “—after dinner? Are you helping to get the kids ready for bed?—brush their teeth, read them a story, pray with them. Get down on your knees, next to them, and look them in the eyes and ask them how their day was,”—but take some of your wife's load off of her and assume it yourself!  20:00 There is a concept in the Bible called “bearing one another's burdens.” I do think some guys—they want sex, but they don't want the process of loving—that means nourishing, which is creating growth—and cherishing, which is creating value— Bob: Yes. Dennis: —they don't want to do that with their wife. When you help your wife with her household duties, with the kids and all—you're making a statement of value to your wife that she ultimately will hear. Bob: I have to ask you about the wife, who would say, “This is a priority for me— Barbara: Yes.  Bob: —“but it's less a priority for my husband.”  Barbara: Yes. Bob: Let me first of all, though, let our listeners know how they can get a copy of the book that you've written, which is called Letters to My Daughters. It's a book that we've got in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You address, not only this subject, but you address a variety of subjects—letters that your daughters and daughters-in-law have written to you over the years, asking questions about being a godly wife and how you've responded to those letters that they've written.  21:00 You can go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to order a copy of the book; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY and order by phone. Again the website is FamilyLifeToday.com; and you can call 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” Dennis: Bob, I just want to say a word to our listeners. When you buy a book from FamilyLife Today, you're helping to keep this radio broadcast on the air. I've got to tell you—the people who really float this ship right here, to keep FamilyLife Today broadcasting, are Legacy Partners. They're people who give, every month, and who say: “I want to keep this kind of right-thinking—a biblical approach to marriage, to sex, to intimacy—I want to keep this on the air in my community; because this is going to make a difference in a lot of people's lives.” I just want to say, “Thanks,” to Legacy Partners right now: “Thank you for making this broadcast possible.” Bob: If you'd like to join the Legacy Partner team, we could use more Legacy Partners.  22:00 You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the link, where it says, “Donate.” There's information available there about becoming a Legacy Partner. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. Barbara Rainey has joined us today. We've been talking about Chapter 6 in her book, Letters to My Daughters. Barbara, we started the conversation with a letter that you got from one of your daughters, saying, “What's the big deal?” There are some wives, who have been listening to us have this conversation, and they have said, “My question is: ‘Why isn't this a bigger deal— Barbara: Yes.  Bob: —“'for my husband? I'm ready. In fact, I feel robbed, or starved, or like there's something wrong with me! What do I do?” Barbara: I interviewed a couple of young women when I wrote this particular portion of the chapter because I wanted to know what they thought, and what they felt, and what they were experiencing. It's interesting—I don't have statistics to back this up—but I did do some research and talked to a number of different counselors and different people.  23:00 I think, oftentimes, there are issues in a young man's life that are keeping him from wanting to have sex with his wife; and typically, it's pornography.  In the women that I talked to—when I was preparing to write this chapter—that was the issue with most of these young men. There was so much shame attached to them as men / as young men because they were exposed, when they were children or when they were teenagers, and they just didn't know how to handle it—they still don't know how to handle it. That shame is keeping them from wanting to be one, sexually, with their wife.  Whether it is pornography or whether it is something else, the encouragement that I got from those that I talked to and that I would offer to you is that this is a concern that you need to carry with him. Dennis just mentioned, a minute ago, the verse, “Bear one another's burdens.” Once you become married, your burdens become one another's. You need to carry those burdens together. 24:00 I would encourage a wife, who is in that situation, to say to her husband: “You know, I know this is hard; and this is hard for me too. Let's go find someone who can help us; because I'm committed to you for a lifetime, and you agreed to be committed to me for a lifetime. Let's figure out what we need to do. Let's find what challenges we need to face. Let's do the work together to make our marriage what God intended it to be.” I know—from talking to these women—that it can change / it can be redeemed. God can change those broken places in both of our lives and bring you to a place where marriage is what you wanted it to be and where sex, in particular, is as God designed it to be. Bob: FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

A Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 1) - Bill BrightA Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 2) - Bill BrightA Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 3) - Bill BrightFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Finish the RaceDay 2 of 3 Guest:                    Bill Bright From the series:   Reflections of Life:  A Personal Visit With Bill Bright  Bob:                There is a problem within the church today.  According to Dr. Bill Bright, there are a lot of people who say they love God when many of them don't really know Him. Bill:                  The average person has a superficial view of God, and you can't love someone you don't know, you can't trust someone you don't know, you can't obey someone you don't know.  So the most important thing is to find out who God is, discover His character, and just love, trust, and obey Him. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, February 20th.  Our host is the Executive Director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  Today – a conversation with a man who has spent his life introducing people to their Creator.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Thursday edition.  You've been asked a number of times by people that question – if you could have dinner with any four people, living or dead, who would you invite to your dinner party and probably stopped and considered that question and thought about the Apostle Paul or about King David or whoever you might choose to be at your dinner party.                         I would imagine that there would be many listeners who, when asked that question, would have on their list, the opportunity to invite Bill and Vonette Bright to that dinner party and just to be able to interact with them about a life of faithfulness to Christ that God has honored in a remarkable way. Dennis:          You know, when I was a young man starting out right after college, I had no idea how Bill Bright's life would impact mine initially, from a distance.  But here in the last dozen or so years, I've had the opportunity to have many, many meals with Bill, to have personal time with him, and you and I had the opportunity to fly down to Orlando and sit in their living room and just have a sweet chat with an 81-year-old man who is suffering from a very serious illness … Bob:                … he's got a pulmonary fibrosis … Dennis:          … right – that has taken away 60 percent of his lungs' capacity, and, Bob, you and I both left those interviews, which we started on yesterday's broadcast, and if you missed it, I would encourage you to call and get the tapes and get the entire interview, because it's a great reminder from a man who has lived his life well, about what is really important.  And one of the things I wanted to ask him about and interview him about was the subject of money, because there's a lot of great stories about how Bill Bright personally has approached money and his own personal wealth, which he doesn't have a lot of personal wealth. Bob:                In spite of the fact that he has written a number of books and at one point was handed a check for $1 million. Dennis:          Right, he won the Templeton Award and gave that money immediately and invested it in Campus Crusade for Christ for the purpose of prayer and fasting. Bob:                In fact, I think he talks about that in the section of the interview we're going to hear today, because you did quiz him about the issue of wealth and how we handle our money and, in fact, that's where we'll pick things up today.  This is Part 2 of an interview done recently with the former president and founder of Campus Crusade for Christ, Dr. Bill Bright. Dennis:          You have rubbed shoulders with people who have had enormous wealth in your 81 years of life.  You've been a part of seeing people invest literally tens of millions, hundreds of millions, billions of dollars in the kingdom work.  What advice would you have for the man, the couple, who really want to use their lives and their wealth for the glory of God? Bill:                  Well, first of all, wealth is a gift of God.  It all belongs to Him.  At best, we are stewards.  There is no one who could say, "Look, I've accumulated this vast fortune.  I did it with my own ability."  Everything is a gift, even the breath which we breathe, and I'm on oxygen 24 hours a day, so I appreciate breath as a gift of God.                           But anyone who thinks that they are responsible for their vast wealth is not thinking logically.  There are many, many factors that contribute to vast wealth, and so I say to men and women of wealth – live a good life.  Enjoy yourself, but you should not be extravagant and don't destroy your grandchildren by leaving them large sums of money.  Take care of sending them to college or whatever they may need but be sure you do not spoil your children and your grandchildren and future heirs by leaving a trust that will cause them to be lethargic, complacent, and never develop the skills which you've developed because you had to.                         Remember, it's all God's money, and you're going to be held accountable in a very real way when you get to heaven, if you make it, and if your money and your wealth and your material possessions are your god, you won't make it.   Bob:                Have you seen people leave money to children or grandchildren and that lethargic complacency that you're talking about – have you seen those who were destroyed by … Bill:                  … absolutely, absolutely.  I think of a tragic situation – a couple came to me one day.  They had worked hard together.  They had built a fortune.  They had one daughter, and she married an atheist who hated God, and they said, "What are we going to do with that money?"  I said, "Whatever you do, don't leave it to your daughter and your grandchildren, because he will use it for purposes that are contrary to everything you stand for.  Give it away while you're alive.  Take care of them in a modest way but don't give that money to your atheistic son-in-law," who wouldn't even allow his children to go to Sunday school.                         Well, their love for their children overruled that, and they left it to the family, and you can imagine what happened to it.  It was a tragic situation.  They'll be held accountable for this.  It's well known that people who inherit large sums of money in their youth generally are not properly motivated to maximize their gifts.  So they drift through life, living a life of ease, and they literally become parasites on society.  And, as you know, in parts of the world where there is the class of the super-rich, they're usually very decadent.  That's not always true but all too often extreme wealth clouds the thinking of the recipients of that wealth – bigger homes, bigger cars, a greater opulence and extravagance instead of "Lord, this is all yours.  How can we use it to bring greater glory, greater honor, and greater praise to You." Bob:                Does it seem to you that sometimes those who don't have any spiritual convictions are more generous and more inclined to give?  I'm thinking of Ted Turner giving millions of dollars to the United Nations or Bill Gates setting up a foundation for vaccinations around the world.  I sometimes wonder if we ought to take a lesson from some of these folks. Bill:                  Well, one should never question another's motives – why they give – but there are many tax benefits, many considerations, and I pray that those who God, whether they believe it or not, God uniquely blessed.  I think back on my own career as a businessman.  I started my business with a modest capital, and because of the influence of two men who were kind of like fathers to me – they had no sons of their own – and they were among the leaders in the whole confection industry.  They helped promote my merchandise – Bright's Brandied and Epicurean Foods – whenever people came to their businesses, and they were two of the top men in the nation.  They would promote my merchandise, because they liked me, and they liked my merchandise.                         I wasn't a believer, but at least one of the men, I know, was a believer.  The other one, I'm not sure of, but they helped me tremendously.  So, as a kid, in my early 20s, I was experiencing phenomenal success, and yet I can't say I was smart, I was brilliant, I did this, I did that – God arranges all these things, and I was able to succeed in the measure I did because of many factors.                         So anyone who is wealthy would have to say, if he thinks clearly, "I had a lot of help from God working through people," and I look back on my own business career; I have to say God orchestrated all these many wonderful things preparing me for the day when I'd be born into His family, and He could show me a whole new way of life. Dennis:          Bill, you're still highly motivated, even at 81 years of age.  You're on oxygen 24 hours a day; your lungs are only working at about 40 percent of capacity – what gets you out of bed in the morning? Bill:                  Well, my love for Jesus.  You know, people ask me "What's the most important thing we could pray for you?"  And I always respond, "Pray that I will never leave my first love."  Love God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and, of course, love your neighbor as yourself, love your enemies.  So my love for Him and my desire to please Him, to obey Him, He is my Master, my Lord, and I can't think of any activity in which I could be engaged that is more important than pleasing Him. And, of course, I say all that, including my precious wife.  She is the joy and delight of my heart.  We've been married over 54 years and all I can do is thank God at what an incredible, wonderful, fantastic wife He has given me – and lover and partner and friend in Vonette, and I encourage every man out there who wants to live a fruitful, wonderful life, to love your wife as Christ loved the church, even if you do it for selfish reasons, and you can't really do it for selfish reasons, because loving your wife has to be supernatural with His enabling, but if you don't have a happy wife, you're not going to have a happy heart.  And you need to give attention to your dear, beloved, precious spouse, who is a gift of God until death do us part, and don't ever think of divorce as a way out.  You find someone as God has led you to be married, or if He should lead you in the future to be married, remember, obey the Word of God; love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it – and sacrificial living. Dennis:          Bill, Bob and I – and I'm taking our average age together here, because Bob's about to correct me out of this, but we're approximately 30 years behind you in the race. Bob:                I'm a little farther behind than Dennis.  I'd just like to make that clear. Dennis:          And it's not that I'm that much older, Bill, than he is … Bill:                  … maybe a couple of days. Dennis:          Yeah, a couple of days, a couple of days older than Bob – certainly not more mature, though.  But what advice would you have for a man who wants to finish well?  I mean, if God grants strength and favor, Bob and I will live another 30 years.  What exhortation would you give us, as men, and just to men in terms of how they run the race and end up at the finish line like you are, still sprinting at the end? Bill:                  Well, you remember, Paul writes to Timothy – chapter 4, verses 7 and 8 – "I've fought a good fight, I've finished the race, and I've been faithful."  I would say the number-one priority – love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and that requires time in the Word.  You can't live a godly life unless you're taking God's Word in your daily moment by moment.  Communicate with God in prayer.  Prayer is like breathing.  We pray and talk to Him.  So love Him, trust Him, obey Him, and in order to all this, you have to know who He is. So if you have a superficial view of God, you need to begin to study the attributes of God.  That's the reason I wrote the book, "God:  Discover His Character," three or four years ago, because the average person has a superficial view of God, and you can't love someone you don't know; you can't trust someone you don't know; you can't obey someone you don't know.  So the most important thing is to find out who God is, discover his character, and just love, trust, and obey Him. Bob:                You see what Dennis has got in his hand there, don't you? Bill:                  I just happened to see that. Dennis:          I have a card that, Bill, you discovered the power of lamination before Bob did, but you laminated a card here that is entitled the name of your book, "God:  Discover the Benefits of His Attributes."  And on this card, on the front and back, are listed different attributes of God. Bill:                  Thirteen attributes. Dennis:          Thirteen attributes, and I'm not going to ask you to name all 13, although I'm confident you could do it. Bill:                  I memorized and meditate on them almost every day and night.  I wake up in the middle of the night and while I'm going back to sleep, I will run through different ones and just praise the Lord for who He is. Dennis:          Well, what I want you to do, and I was going to ask you this question, anyway, but you've taken me there – out of these 13 what three are the most meaningful? Bill:                  They're all important.  I can't … Dennis:          … I know they're all important, and I knew you were going to say that, but as you have meditated and have gotten to know God, and as He has revealed Himself to you, could you name three that are closest to you in your walk. Bill:                  I wouldn't say three are more important than the rest, but God is sovereign.  He rules in the affairs of men and nations.  He controls everything.  We think we're smart, and we're really dummies compared to Him.  After all, look at – study the human eyeball or the corpuscle, or anything about any of His creation, and you realize we're just dummies.  So He is sovereign.  He lifts up, and He puts down.  And then He is love. Dennis:          I'm going to stop you there, because I want to read what you wrote on the card – "Because God is sovereign, that's who He is, I will joyfully submit to His will." Bill:                  Yes. Dennis:          So it's more than just an intellectual realization that there is One who rules absolutely. Bill:                  I put the word "joyfully" in there especially, because it's not just kind of a duty.  God is sovereign, so I'm going to be – I'm just going to resign myself to the fact that He is in charge, and it's going to be a boring drudgery.  No, God is in charge, and it's a joyful journey to know that He's in charge.  If I didn't know He was in charge, now I'm breathing on oxygen for the last couple of years – I would probably be kind of anxious at times.  But God is in charge.  Nothing happened.  You know, you read Acts 4 – "Nothing happens to you and me that is not with His approval."  Satan has no power over us except that which God allows.  Everything is filtered through His love.                          You have cancer, you have a heart attack, you have a stroke, you have financial problems – what do you do about it?  Well, Paul writes, "Rejoice."  James writes, "Rejoice.  In all things give thanks."  Well, you know, one of the greatest lessons I've ever learned, which I learned maybe 40 years or so ago is that all things – give thanks.  Rejoice in adversity as well as blessings. Dennis:          And you can do that because you know there is One. Bill:                  I know there is a sovereign God.  He rules in the affairs, and when I say thank you, even through my tears I'm demonstrating faith, and the scripture says without faith it's impossible to please God.  That which is not of faith is sin.  The judged shall live by faith.  So I'm saying, when I praise God that I'm wearing this tube, breathing oxygen, I'm praising God out of a joyful heart not out of resignation, and then, of course, the love – God's love for me is unconditional.  Because God is love, he is unconditionally committed to my well-being and, you know, you could spend an hour talking about the love of God.  Nothing can separate us from the love of God, no matter how even we sin and grieve Him, His love reaches out to us.                         Which brings me to the third attribute, and I hate to leave out any of those 13, and, of course, there are many others – is mercy – because of His mercy.  If I confess my sins, He is always faithful and just to forgive me of my sins, because of His mercy. Dennis:          Right.  Bill, you mentioned your book, "God:  Discover the Benefits of His Attributes."  I've lost count of how many books you've written … Bill:                  … about a hundred … Dennis:          … you're writing them faster than I can read them.  It's over 100 books? Bill:                  Over 100 books and booklets. Dennis:          Okay. Bill:                  And thousands of articles. Dennis:          Bob gets onto me for asking these questions, but I'm going to ask you – do you have a favorite? Bill:                  I would say probably the best book I've ever written is "God:  Discover His Character," because it deals with the attributes of God, and you – you know, I've written on the Ten Commandment, living supernaturally in Christ … Dennis:          … you've written about the person of Jesus Christ … Bill:                  … the person of Jesus, prayer, on and on and on, but getting to know God, His marvelous attributes, you realize everything else falls into place. Bob:                Well, again, today we've been listening to Dr. Bill Bright, founder and past president of Campus Crusade for Christ rehearsing the attributes of God, which is a healthy exercise for all of us all the time, isn't it? Dennis:          It is, and if there's anything I've learned from Bill Bright is that we need to not only talk about God and what He's doing in our lives, but we need to know Him, and we need to continue to pursue Him to get to know Him and a part of that comes, Bob, as we understand the qualities that we use as human beings to describe little facets of God's character, and I do think, and I agree with Bill, this is the greatest book, this book on the character of God that Bill Bright wrote.  This is his greatest book he's ever written. Bob:                The book is called, "God:  Discover His Character," and we have it available in our FamilyLife Resource Center.  This is a book that is great for private devotions, it's a book that parents can use in family time with the children to help introduce the children to the greatness of our God.  If you'd like to get a copy, you can call 1-800-FLTODAY or you can request a copy online at FamilyLife.com.  Again, the title is "God:  Discover His Character," by Dr. Bill Bright.                         When you get in touch with us, you may also want to request either cassettes or CDs of our complete interview with Dr. Bill Bright.  We have only been able to feature portions of it here on FamilyLife Today, but if you'd like to hear the entire conversation, you can ask about those tapes or about CD copies of the interviews when you contact us again, at 1-800-FLTODAY or, if you'd like to, you can order online at FamilyLife.com.                         I was thinking about Dr. Bright's book, and I was thinking about our mission at FamilyLife to effectively develop godly families who change the world one home at a time.  If we're going to succeed in that mission of developing godly families, then we have to make sure that our families know the God we want to reflect in our own character and in our own lives, and FamilyLife is committed to that spiritual agenda. We want husbands and wives and moms and dads to be centered on the priority of God's Word in your marriage and in your family.  We are joined in that agenda by a whole lot of folks around the country who are FamilyLife Champions or Legacy Partners – in fact, some brand-new Legacy Partners who just joined with us here in the last few weeks, and it's nice to have you folks on board with us.  A Legacy Partner is somebody who, on a monthly basis, makes a contribution to our ministry. We often will hear from those Legacy Partners, Dennis, who write to us and ask us to pray for them.  In fact, I just saw that we've gotten a note from a 69-year-old grandmother in South Dakota who is raising two boys – she's raising a 12-year-old and a 16-year-old, and I don't know the circumstances that have her raising those young men, but she said, "Please pray for me.  I need strength and patience."  And we do take those requests for prayer seriously, and our team joins in praying for folks who write to us with those kinds of requests. If you'd like to find out more about becoming a Legacy Partner and joining with us financially or if you'd like to write to us with a prayer request, our mailing address is FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  Our zip code is 72221.  Once again, it's FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas, and our zip code is 72221.  You can also get in touch with us by calling 1-800-FLTODAY.  You can donate over the phone or you can make an online donation at our website at FamilyLife.com. Well, tomorrow we will hear the concluding portion of our conversation held recently with Dr. Bill Bright, the past president and founder of Campus Crusade for Christ.  I hope you can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Robbie Neal, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.   We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com 

A Grace Disguised (Part 1) - Jerry SittserA Grace Disguised (Part 2) - Jerry SittserA Grace Disguised (Part 3) - Jerry SittserFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Forgiveness Guest:                         Jerry SittserFrom the series:          A Grace Disguised  (Day 3 of 3) Bob:   Proverbs 25:11 says, “A Word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in a setting of silver.” When someone has experienced loss we need to be careful that our words are fitly spoken.  Here's Jerry Sittser… Jerry:  Sometimes words can actually exacerbate the problem rather than help the problem.  I mean, Job's three friends did their best work when they just shut their mouths for a week and sat with Job on that heap of ashes.  The cue is, when they're ready to talk, then you're ready to listen. When they really feel like they are ready to receive a word, then you give it, but never before that.  And what you don't want to do is use words to try to somehow push the loss and its significance away. Bob:  This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, July 8th.  Our host is the President of FamilyLife Dennis Rainey and I'm Bob Lepine.   We'll here today how God shows up in the midst of loss.  And about how we can show up, too.   And welcome to FamilyLife Today and thanks for joining us.  Just as I was walking in here, I got an email from our mutual friend, Dr. Michael Easley, who is the pastor at Fellowship Bible Church in Franklin, TN, and Michael sent me a prayer that he had written to send to a couple who had experienced the loss of a child a year ago today.  The child had lived two months and unexpectedly died.  And Michael wrote this prayer for them.   He said, I pray for you today that your memories will be sweet, that your hearts will be calmed, that you will find a non-anxious presence.  That you will choose to trust and see good when there is nothing for sure, that you will grieve, but not as those who have no hope, that you will find comfort and mercy in places others may never know.   That your “why” questions will be replaced with a confidence in knowing that, He knows, and that's enough.  We love you and ask Him to pour mercy, kindness and hope into your hearts.  He does indeed know you and love you no matter what your experience may try to tell you. Dennis:  Bob, you know as I listen to those words, I think, how many people listening to this broadcast right now have experienced loss, some kind of major loss in their lives, in the past 5 to 10 years.   As I said earlier, if you live long enough, you will experience loss.  In fact, life is really made up of a lot of losses as we lose our childhood, and move into adulthood.  Some of those losses look good at the time but some of the losses aren't easily figured out, in fact, some are never figured out on this side of heaven.  We've had a guest with us, Dr. Jerry Sittser who has helped us better understand the process of grieving through his book, A Grace Disguised. Welcome back. Jerry:  Thank you, it's good to be here. Dennis:  I mentioned earlier, that Barbara had recommended this book to me after our daughter, Rebecca and her husband Jake, experienced the loss of their daughter after seven days of life.  And Barbara joins us on the broadcast as well.   Sweetie, welcome. Barbara:  Thank you, glad to be here. Dennis:  In fact, I hadn't asked you this question, sweetheart.  As you read this book, what was it about Jerry's book that most ministered to you, and why have you recommended it to so many people? Barbara:  Well, I wish I had my copy in front of me, I tried to find it this morning, and I can't find where I set that thing.  But at any rate it's all underlined and marked, and page corners turned back.   And one of the things I remember most vividly is early in the first few chapters, Jerry, you talk about how loss is loss and that it doesn't do any good to compare losses, and to say that this loss is worse than that loss.  Because loss brings grief and it brings pain and that grief and that pain is real and it needs to be experienced.  It is what it is.  To try to explain it or measure it and say it's not really that bad or it's worse than this, doesn't really make any difference in the long run.  I think we are so prone to wanting to measure and figure these things out.   The other piece I remember real vividly is a later chapter in the book, it talks about how our identity is changed by grief and loss and how so much of who we are is wrapped up in our identity with that thing or that person or that ability we have lost.  Whether it's a divorce or a death, or whether it's losing the ability through physical illness and how that personal identity is transformed through the process of loss and grief.  I thought that was really helpful and profound. Jerry:  I call that the amputation of the familiar self. Barbara:  That's what it was, yes. Jerry:  It's extraordinarily hard, because we are really defined by our location, our relationships, our work, these things provide sources of identity and when one of those is lopped off, it requires a pretty long and significant period of adjustment to figure out who you are in the wake of the loss of that thing, when that thing defined you to some degree.   We have these phantom pains, you know.  Phantom pains are the leg telling you it's still there when you look down and it's not there anymore.  That's what an amputation does and we will go through a long period of time when we feel those phantom pains of still feeling like we are this person, we belong to this person, we do this particular line of work and this kind of thing, even though we don't anymore. Bob:  How long was it for you in the weeks that followed the car accident where your wife and your daughter and your mother all were killed?  For how many months did you have this kind of reflexive phantom impulse to say, oh, I ought to call her and share this with her and then realize she's not there? Jerry:  Well, for a long time.  Reflexive is the right word, too.   It is like a reflex, where it's programmed in you, so automatic.  When after twenty years, when you call your spouse once or twice  a day just to check in, “Hi, honey, how's it going and what are you doing, what are the kids doing, or how's work going,” that sort of thing.  You can't help but have your mind go there; just automatically, it happens a long time.  I would say after those months even though it wasn't as reflexive as it once was, it still was an impulse in me.   And to tell you the truth, Bob, it still is, after 18 years.  Now, I don't say that in despairing or bitter kind of way.  I still think about those people every day.  There's not a day that goes by, I don't.  And I don't think that's a bad thing.  I don't like words like recovery; I think that gives us a kind of vain expectation as if we can get back to something we had before.   Dennis:  Some months before our granddaughter, Molly, died, I received an email from the gentleman who heads up FamilyLife in New Zealand.  His name is Andy Bray, he and his wife Nikki have given leadership to FamilyLife there for more than a dozen years.  Their daughter who was 15 or 16 years of age, at the time, was killed in a tragic flood in New Zealand along with 5 or 6 other young people who were all first class Christian leaders.   It was a reward trip for these young people, and I received that email some months before Molly's death.  And I have to tell you that in those seven days of Molly's life, I kept thinking, that has to be harder, a harder thing to bear, to have had a relationship with your daughter for 16 years and now, to say goodbye.   I mean it's one thing for my daughter and son-in-law to have a relationship for seven days and say goodbye, and the more I tried to work this equation out in my mind, I came to the conclusion that it was futility.  It was a waste of time.  Am I wrong? Jerry:  No, you are right.  Comparing loss is vain.  It's like comparing headaches; I mean people will describe their headaches in lots of different ways.  Well, how are you going to determine which one is worse?  I mean it's silly in the first place.   I put it this way; all losses are bad, just bad in different ways.  How can you compare say the loss of a spouse to death and the loss of a spouse to divorce?  How can you compare the loss of a child to death or say the loss of a child to waywardness, they are both bad.  And they stand on their own and we need to treat them as unique and sacred in and of themselves.   I tell you that was one of the reasons why I hesitated to write this book.  My story is kind of sensational in a way, I mean this big event and three people are killed in this drunken driving accident. Everybody sort of gasps and I became almost an instant celebrity in Spokane overnight and I didn't like that.  And the reason why I didn't like that was because I was so profoundly aware of other kinds of losses that were as severe  as mine, just different, and maybe not visible and maybe not as prone to receive sympathy from other people.  Let me give you an example, some guy came up to me a couple of years after the accident and said I've resented you for two years.  And I said, “why, I hardly know you”, and he said, “your tragedy turned you into a hero, my tragedy has only brought more pain.  My wife left me for another woman,” he said, “and I've had to deal with catastrophic consequences, but I'm nobody's hero.”   That was very sobering for me to hear, it wasn't very nice for him to say, but it was very sobering for me to hear, recognizing that there are lots of losses that do not receive very much public attention.   If they do, it's not with sympathy.  I hesitated to write the book and when I decided to write it, I inserted Chapter Two:  Whose Loss is Worse, just to protect myself from being made some kind of false celebrity because of my loss.  There are lots of ways to suffer, lots of ways to experience pain, and mine is only one.  And there are lots of things I don't know, I don't know what it means to experience, let's say the long term effects of terminal illness or injuries from which a person cannot recover.   Bob:  You know, it was interesting, Barbara, to hear you reflect back on what had an impact on you as you read Jerry's book.  I asked Maryann last night, the same question.  I said what was most impactful as you read the book, and she said probably the chapter on forgiveness.   I thought it's interesting, I don't know that we make a connection between grief and loss and forgiveness, but you see those as being intimately tied together, don't you? Jerry:  I do, and I titled that chapter:  Forgive and Remember, instead of forgive and forget.  I don't think it's possible and I don't think it's healthy to forget anything.  But I think forgiveness can change the way we remember things.   Especially when we've had pain inflicted to us, spouses betrayed us, somebody's done some violent act, say raped us or something like that, or someone has embezzled money and that destroyed our business.  There are lots of ways we suffer loss when the results are catastrophic and somebody willed to do harm to us, directly or indirectly. Bob:  In your case, it was a drunk driver who swerved across the road, right? Jerry:  And smashed into us.  Now he didn't intend to do that, his harm was not malicious in the sense that he was out to kill three members of my family.  But his irresponsible decisions did lead to that and required me to forgive. Bob:  What did you have to go through to get to forgiveness? Jerry:  I think there were two phases to it; the more immediate and obvious one was the trial when the drunken driver was acquitted on a technicality and he walked away.  That only added kind of a bitter cast to an already difficult journey in forgiving somebody who had had such a significant impact on my life.  I learned in the process that forgiveness is not a singular act, it's a process you go through.  And I think the most significant decision we make, is to say, we want to forgive.  Not that we forgive at the time, but we want to go through the process where forgiveness begins to take place.  And we get to the point where we can wish the person well and pray for them. Bob:  You have heard some amazing, well; you've gotten some amazing feedback to the book.  Letters, you were saying earlier, not a week goes by that you don't hear from someone who God has used your story and your book profoundly in their lives.   Jerry:  Yes, but it's a strange thing, there's a kind of an otherness to this book.  I actually brought it with me.  I've reread it once since I wrote it and that was when the new edition came out about five years ago, about the only time I ever cracked it.   I skimmed it a little bit yesterday and it was a strange experience, because it's almost as if I didn't write it, it has a quality of otherness to it.   As if it's not quite mine, I think the closest it would come would be the way that parents feel about their children.  Is that those children are so much a part of you but when you look at them and get to know them you realize they're so other than you, too.  And that's how I feel about this book.  Dennis:  You did tell a story before we came in the studio of a letter you have received from a woman who had a brother who was murdered.   Jerry:  And this was after 28 years.  And through those 28 years of suffering she described it as being very harsh, very hard.  She feels like she lost her mother permanently in the wake of her brother's murder and this sort of thing.   She decided that she needed to forgive the murderer of her brother, so she did research, found out where he was in the prison system and asked if she could have permission to visit him.  He sort of coldly gave her permission, and so she went to see him and God gave her two words, on the ride to see him, and these are very powerful to me. The first is, you're never beyond the reach of the grace of God, and the second is you can always become the man God wants you to be, even if you're in prison.  And she met this man, forgave him, he broke down and sobbed, came to know the Lord and their relationship continues to this day.   That's a powerful example of forgiveness, but it's a little troubling to me too, because it doesn't always happen quite that easily.  Sometimes it is a process.  It's a journey and you have to go through phases of forgiveness to get to the point where you can really wish the person well and trust them to the good hand of God and pray for them Dennis:  Your story and just what you said reminds me of Romans 12: 18, and these are powerful in my life because there's a person I've had to forgive, more than one obviously over my lifetime, but one where this is very real to me.  “If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.  Beloved never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God for it is written, vengeance is mine, I will repay says the Lord.”   It's interesting, Jerry, as I have very imperfectly attempted to be obedient to that passage and have prayed for not only to be able to forgive and to be at peace.  As I thought about the wrath of God I've prayed for that person to be delivered from the wrath of God, because I know what that means.  It potentially could mean an eternity separated from God.   Jerry:  Oh, what a terrible burden a person has to bear for wrongdoing.   I would always choose to be the victim of wrongdoing, than to be the perpetrator of wrongdoing.   Early on that came to me, by the way, is I thought about what it would mean for me to change positions.  And I didn't want that at all.  You know, ironically, we like to claim justice.  We really want, we think we want to live in a fair world, but I'm not sure we want the world to be fair.  On the one hand maybe some bad things wouldn't happen to us that have happened to us over the years.   But grace isn't fair either and I'd rather live in a world that is unfair, knowing that I am going to take some hits along the way, as I have, and will continue to experience if I know that grace is available to me too, because  the unfairest thing in the world is grace.   I think about our Lord who had to wear a crown of thorns, the only one in all of human history who was not deserving of that crown of thorns, so that we could wear a crown of honor.  Dennis:  Hmm, what a picture Jerry:  There is no fairness in that at all. Dennis:  And the reality of that is that it all occurred through suffering.  Jerry:  It all occurred through suffering.  In fact, that is the answer to the problem of evil.  This is where the Christian answer to evil is so paradoxical and so glorious and beautiful.   The Bible's answer to suffering, is suffering, the suffering of God in human flesh.  God chooses out of his pure love for fallen humanity, to actually enter into the world.  And instead of entering it with a glorious birth, announced and heralded by sounding trumpets, he was born into a pathetic stable.  He grows up in obscurity.  He is a carpenter's son, he never gets a first rate education.  He didn't really get an education at all, except in the synagogue. He has a three year ministry, and then he suffers death on a cross.  We are talking about God doing this.  This is the Bible's answer to suffering, God's suffering and then the triumph in the resurrection. Dennis:  The apostle Peter says this about that suffering of Christ, “Beloved do not be surprised at the fiery trial which comes upon you  to test you as though something strange were happening, but rejoice, in so far as you share in Christ's sufferings, that you may be able to rejoice and be glad when His glory is revealed.” Jerry:  And Paul writes, “More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope.”  This is one of the strange things that's occurred in our own experience, is a rejoicing in the experience. Not because we're glad it happened, we'll never be that, bad is always bad, but because of what's come as a result. Bob:  You are talking about what is come in your own life, your own experience of God's grace in the midst of all of this.  But also, what has come through you in the book that you have written, A Grace Disguised:  How the Soul Grows through Loss.  God has used powerfully in the lives of folks sitting around this table and tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of folks who have read the book.  And God's used it in a great way to minister to them in their own sense of grief and loss.  Jerry:  But I will say, that no book, however, well read or however life-changing will ever justify, explain or excuse the pain that was visited upon us.  These are separate things altogether.  I don't like it when people sort of explain something because of the good outcome.  Joseph really gave us the right formula here, you meant it for evil, God worked it out for good, but the evil was still evil. Bob:  Yes, that's right and we don't want to do anything to try to minimize the reality of that, but in the comfort you've received from God you have been able to be faithful to do what 2 Corinthians 1 says, to comfort others with the comfort you've received.  And you do that through your book and we want to encourage listeners who are in the midst of a season of suffering or a season of loss to get a copy of the book, A Grace Disguised: How a Soul Grows Through Loss.  You can find out more about it online at FamilyLifeToday.com.   While you are on our web site you will also see information about Barbara Rainey's new book written with your daughter Rebecca Mutz.  It tells the story of the life, the short life, of your granddaughter Molly, who was born a year ago at this time and lived for seven days.   The book is called A Symphony in the Dark:  Hearing God's Voice in Seasons of Grief, and we do have copies of that book in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center as well.  You can get more information about it online at FamilyLifeToday.com or call toll free, 1-800 FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329.  Someone on our team will let you know how you can get either or both of these books sent to you.   We also want to be quick today to say thank you so much to those of you who help underwrite the syndication and production costs of this program, to make it possible for the program to be heard on this station and on our network of stations all across the country.  Our listeners and especially those of you who can help support this program financially, you make it possible for this program to continue and we appreciate you so much.   This month if you are able to make a donation of any amount to help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today, we'd like to say thank you by sending you a CD that features a conversation  we had not long ago with Nancy Leigh DeMoss, the author and the speaker on the daily radio program Revive our Hearts.   Nancy has written a book called Choosing Forgiveness and we wanted to explore what the Bible teaches about the subject of forgiveness with her.  That conversation is available as our way of saying thank you this month when you do make a donation to support the ministry of FamilyLife Today.   If your donation is online, you'll see a key code box on the donation form as you fill it out online.  Type the word “forgive” in the box and we'll send you the CD, or if you call 1-800-FLTODAY you can make your donation by phone and just mention that you would like the CD and we are happy to send it to you.  And again we appreciate you so much for partnering with us, here at the ministry of FamilyLife Today.   Tomorrow we are going to talk with a young woman who lives in NYC, about a different kind of loss than we have talked about already this week.   We are going to talk about being young and single, and wishing you were married, and dealing with the sense of loss that comes with that.  Carolyn Leutwiler is going to join us tomorrow, hope you can be back with us as well.   I want to thank our engineer today Keith Lynch and our entire broadcast production team on behalf of our host Dennis Rainey I'm Bob Lepine.  We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock Arkansas Help for today.  Hope for tomorrow. © 2009 FamilyLife   We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com     

A Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 1) - Bill BrightA Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 2) - Bill BrightA Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 3) - Bill BrightFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Lessons LearnedDay 1 of 3 Guest:                    Bill Bright From the series:   Reflections of Life:  A Personal Visit With Bill Bright  Bob:                Throughout his life and his ministry, Dr. Bill Bright has had a single focus – The Great Commission – that Christ would send us into all the world to preach the Gospel to all men.  Here is Dr. Bill Bright. Bill:                  The average Christian does not realize that his loved ones, neighbors, and friends, are going to hell.  Now you say – would a loving God send people to hell?  No – God has put a cross at the entrance of hell, and the only way anybody can go to hell is to reject God's love and God's forgiveness. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, February 19th.  Our host is the Executive Director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  Today we talk with the man who has made The Great Commission his life's objective, Dr. Bill Bright.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition.  It was not long ago that you and I had the opportunity to sit down and have a conversation with a Christian leader and, frankly, two years ago if you had said we would have had that opportunity in the fall of 2002, I would have said it won't happen, because the Christian leader, in this particular case, Dr. Bill Bright – well, everyone thought that he would not live much longer. Dennis:          Right, and there were a number of us who wrote Bill letters, tributes; we made phone calls.  I still remember a great conversation I had with him that I thought would be my last, and he asked me to speak at an event, and I thought, "You rascal, you've done it again.  You've gotten one more thing out of me.  You're not even going to be here then," but Bill Bright is a great man.  His life is not over.  He is showing us how to finish strong, all the way to the end. He only has about 40 percent of his lung capacity due to the disease that he has, but he's writing books, he's doing interviews, he's taking a limited number of speaking engagements and, Bob, I came to you a few months ago, and I said, "It's time we went to Orlando and sat in Bill Bright's living room and talked with him again.  He's now lived for a couple of years longer than either you or I thought he would.  Let's go find out what he's learned." Bob:                And that conversation that we had in his living room in Orlando was just a relaxed conversation where we peppered him on a variety of subjects, but it was so refreshing. Dennis:          Yeah, and it was really a sweet time.  For those who don't know who Bill Bright is, and there are some who perhaps don't – Bill is the founder and past president of Campus Crusade for Christ.  He is the author of the "Four Spiritual Laws", which has – I suppose there are billions of "Four Spiritual Laws" that have been reproduced around the world – people sharing their faith.  Bill has been used mightily by God to touch the world, to touch nations, but he also was used mightily in my own life and yours, too, Bob, and I think by the time our listeners listen to this interview, along with the next couple of days, Bill Bright will touch you deeply as well.  Let's listen to Dr. Bill Bright. Bob:                You've talked about being on your way to the grave.  You know, there are some who are surprised that we're even having this conversation today, because there was a time just a few years ago I remember hearing you and Brant Gustafson together talking about being ready for heaven and, of course, Brant is there, you're here.  How have you processed all of that over the last several years? Bill:                  Well, just before Easter a year ago, I came home from California to die.  I said to Vonette that I was choking and fainting and all the first signs of what they told me what happened at Mayo's and the Jewish Institute in Denver and my local doctor –"What you have is horrible."  He tried to get my attention, and when I received word I was dying, I said, "Praise the Lord," because, you know, you can't lose with a believer.  It's win-win.  If you die, you go to heaven; if you stay here, you keep on serving Him.  So I had begun to praise the Lord.  He thought I'd lost my sanity, and he said – then he really began to rebuke me – he said, "You have a horrible disease.  You're going to die the most horrible kind of death" – he's a heart specialist and been my doctor for 30 years – and he felt he could tell me that.  Most doctors wouldn't.  And he said, "It's worse than cancer, it's worse than heart trouble, you're just going to choke to death."                         And so I was choking, and I came home to die.  So when I got off the plane, a couple – Jack and Pearl Galpin [sp] had befriended this Russian doctor, and they insisted that she come and examine me.  Now, here's a Ph.D, a research scientist, seven years in charge at Chernobyl, and she had no place to live except the home of the Galpins, who befriended her.  So she came to live in our home, treated me three times a day, and by the end of the 30 days, I began to have new life, and I'm awed at how good I feel. Dennis:          You know, there's a story I want to just tell real quickly, because I want our listeners to know this – there's a real sense in which God used a Russian doctor in your life to keep you alive, and that really can be, I think, tied back to something you did years ago with your retirement savings.  You actually – you and Vonette – actually gave away your retirement to start an outreach in Moscow when the Iron Curtain dropped.  You gave away your retirement, and now here, at the end of your life, what does God use to bless you back, but a Russian whose country had benefited from your sacrificial act of giving, and I think, you know, that's the kind of thing that God in heaven, I think, must have a big grin about.                         He goes, "Bill Bright, you are a termite," you know, "Dennis Rainey, you are, too, but I'm going to show you what I want to do." Bill:                  Oh, He's awesome. Dennis:          I'm going to use somebody from that country to bless you. Bill:                  You know, it's interesting – Vonette and I were led by the Lord to give my retirement pension to build a New Life Training Center at Moscow State University, and one day I'm sitting in the tent 15 years later, recuperating and enjoying the Lord as we're chatting together, and it is as though the Lord said to me in a way that – no question about it – "I sent Dr. Ivanova to help you because you made the widow's mite investment in Moscow State University."                          Now, I began to sob.  I was overcome, because, frankly, there was no question what he was saying to me – that he was pleased by that.  I didn't do it for credit, I didn't make a big issue of it, and I wouldn't have brought it up if you hadn't, but you cannot outgive God, and though, as a movement, we had spent tens of millions of dollars sending Jesus films and Bibles and holding teacher convocations all over Russia and the other republics, but the Lord didn't seem to refer to that.  He referred to what I did first, and that was awesome. Dennis:          You undoubtedly have envisioned where you're going. Bill:                  Oh, heaven is awesome.   Dennis:          To your best extent – obviously, you've never been there – but you've read about it, you know the One Who resides there, you've been walking with the One Who resides there – share what you expect? Bill:                  Eyes not seen, ears not heard what God has prepared for those who love Him.  Heaven is going to be indescribably beautiful – it's not going to be, it is – and I remember as a lad, my precious, saintly mother would often say, "I can hardly wait to go to heaven."  Now, she loved her husband, my father.  She loved seven children.  She was the pillar of the community.  If anybody needed any help, they would always come to my mother.  She was truly a saint.  But I didn't understand what she was saying until I became a believer and now I look forward, with her, with great anticipation, to heaven.  Everything we experience here on earth – all the most elegant and opulent kinds of experiences – cannot compare with what awaits those who believe.                           Here's my logic – the God who spoke – and astronomers say at least 100 billion, 200 billion galaxies were flowing into space, and He holds it all together with the word of His command.  The same God became a man – the God-man, Jesus of Nazareth, died on the cross for our sins, was raised from the dead, and now lives within us, and He said, "I'm going to go to prepare a place for you, and then I'll come back and get you."                         Now, this God who created all this unbelievably beautiful, wonderful universe, you know is going to do a special creative job in preparing heaven.  Heaven is going to be the golden, golden gem of the universe, and whatever our minds can conceive of will fall infinitely short of what heaven is like. Bob:                Were you disappointed when you started getting better? Bill:                  Well, I must tell you, I was excited about going to heaven.  You know, when you heard the interview with Brant Gustafson and myself, we were on a race.  We both were looking forward to going, and we weren't sure – we were saying, "I'll beat you there." Dennis:          Yeah, well, he beat you, didn't he? Bill:                  Yeah, he did – and dear, dear Brant – he was a marvelous, wonderful friend … Dennis:          … yeah, I love him, too. Bill:                  A beloved brother – but here I am doing, in a sense, the most creative thing I've ever done.  In the last 18 months I've put almost 100 hours of the best of my 100 books and booklets on blue screen technology – video – where I can use it for interactive training of millions of people through the years long after I'm with the Lord, and Andrew Murray has been dead 150 years, is still influencing millions of Christians.  Oswald Chambers has been dead over 100 years, is still influencing even the President of the United States.  So here we are, I'm building up a library of books and videos, and I've been able to do that more since I learned I'm dying than any other period in my life.  And then God led a man by the name of James Davis and me to start, as a part of the Crusade ministry, Global Pastures Network, where our goal is to help start 5 million house churches in the next 10 years, and we're working with all major denominations.  We're working with scores of para-church groups, and it's not just a Campus Crusade for Christ project, though it's directed by Crusade under the leadership of Dr. Steve Douglas, but it's a partnership where the leaders of Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God, Presbyterians, and Methodists and many other groups – over 70 denominations and scores of para-church groups are involved. So when I look back over what's happened in the last 18 months, I would have to say I'm glad the Lord let me stay here, and I don't want to stay one second longer than He wants me here. Dennis:          You haven't retired? Bill:                  (laughs) No – I've re-fired. Dennis:          You have re-fired.  What are your dreams if the Lord gives you another 18 months? Bill:                  Well, I would just want to see everything I'm now doing increased, expanded, developed.  But there's one very important thing that is really on my heart in addition to the others, and that is to call America back to the Bible and back to the God of the Bible.  I mentioned that Brad, our son, has written this book, "God is the Issue."  I've written a book on the attributes of God, " God Discovers Character," and "The Year of the Bible.  So we're working on a strategy to take those three – "God is the Issue," "The Year of the Bible," and "God Discovers Character," and do an evangelistic thrust in every community of America, and I can't think of any better way to announce it than your radio program, because, you see, if we get back to the God of the Bible, revival comes.                          And, you know I've fasted and prayed 40 days each year for the last nine years for revival for America, the world, and The Great Commission to be fulfilled.  So I am believing that God is going to raise up the kind of leaders that are necessary in every community of America to make this happen.   Dennis:          Bill, you described heaven as a place you long to go for.  Your face lit up.  I want you to do something you may have never been asked to do – how would you describe hell? Bill:                  Oh, oh, oh – I've just written a book, "Heaven or Hell:  The Ultimate Choice," and hell is an awesome, horrible, indescribably cruel, terrible place, and the average Christian does not realize that his loved ones, neighbors, and friends, are going to hell, and because he doesn't realize there is a hell that is so horrible there are no human words to describe it – this agony for all eternity.  Now you say "Would a loving God send people to hell?"  No.  God has put a cross at the entrance of hell, and the only way anybody can go to hell is to reject God's love and God's forgiveness.  Christ died for all people – Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, everybody – and He's not willing that any should perish.                         Peter writes, "God has delayed His return in order that more people might have a chance to receive Christ."  So God is not being unfair, but He is a just God, He's a holy God, a righteous God, and if we insist on violating His laws and disobeying Him, we are choosing to follow the kingdom of darkness – Satan – and I'm sobered by this.  Hell is a terrible place.  Heaven is an incredibly beautiful place, and as we read in Colossians 1:13 and 14, God has liberated us out of the darkness and gloom of Satan's kingdom and brought us into the kingdom of His dear Son Who bought our freedom with His blood and forgave us all our sins.                         To everyone who is listening to me, take serious what I'm saying and what Dennis and Bob are saying – there are only two kingdoms in this world – Christ's kingdom and Satan's kingdom – and you and your loved ones are a member of either one of those, and you can't be a member of them both, and if you are playing footsies with the ways of the world and being enamored with the things of the world, you are being deceived by the enemy of your soul.  God prepared hell for Satan and his angels, not for you and me.  But if we insist on following Satan, we will go to hell where he is.  I just want to stand on the street corners and say, "Stop, stop, listen to me, you're on your way to heaven or hell, and there aren't any alternatives.  You're a member of one of two kingdoms – there aren't any other kingdoms," and we need to proclaim that. Dennis:          And to that person, Bill, right now, who is listening, who is going, "I don't want to go there.  I don't want to go to a place of spiritual torment, of emotional grief and of judgment.  I want out of that kingdom.  I want to make sure I'm in God's kingdom – a place of peace, a place of beauty, a place of knowing God, seeing Him, and experiencing His love face-to-face."  What should that person do right now? Bill:                  I'd like to ask everyone who has that desire to pray with me.  I'd like to lead them in prayer. Dennis:          That's good. Bill:                  Just, phrase-by-phrase, you quote after me.  Now, Jesus promised us – before we pray – "If you hear My voice and open the door, I'll come in."  If He is speaking to you through this program or any other program, don't you hesitate for a moment.  You may never have another opportunity like this, because God's grace does not always continue.  There's a time when He says, "I will withdraw My blessing from you."  Now, I ask you, if you really want Jesus in your heart, pray this prayer with me, phrase-by-phrase.  Pray it aloud if you're in a position where you can do so – if not, silently – "Lord Jesus, I know You're the Son of God, I know You died on the cross for my sins.  Come into my life, forgive my sins, change my life, make me the kind of person You want me to be." God bless you.  Don't miss out on His plan for you.  He loves you.  He died for you.  He reaches out to embrace you.  Now don't turn Him away.  Follow Him to your last breath, and He will never fail you.  God bless you. Bob:                That, of course, is Dr. Bill Bright, who has shared those sentiments over the last 50 years over and over and over again – calling men and women to faith in Christ and then to service to their Master throughout their lifetime. Dennis:          That's right, and I have to turn to the audience right now and say to that woman who is listening, that man – if you do not know where you will spend eternity after hearing an 81-year-old man who is nearing the end of his life, give you an eternal perspective that there are two kingdoms – the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness, of the devil, wouldn't you like to be sure you are headed toward the kingdom of God? It's a gift.  It's a gift that comes from God by His grace if we will yet receive it by faith in Him and His Word and basically Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins.  We must receive Him.  We must trust Him.  We must ask Him to be our Savior, our Master, our Lord, and I would just challenge you, right now – if you've not made that discovery, if you do not know the Creator of the Universe and are not walking with Him, there is no better time than right now. Put aside excuses, lay aside that obstacle, that burden, that person in the church that has kept you from receiving Christ and come right now.  Just come to Him and kneel and ask Him – Lord Jesus be merciful to me, a sinner.  Come into my life, forgive my sins, be my Master, my Lord, and begin to make me who You created me to be.  Pray that prayer right now in faith, and I just want to remind you, it's not the words of your mouth, but it is the attitude of your heart of coming to God that I believe establishes a relationship with the Almighty God. Bob:                If you want to know about that relationship with God and want to know what it means to be in a right relationship with God, call us and ask about a book we'd like to send you called "Right With God."  It's a book that will explain to you how a man is made right with God and what it means to be a follower of Christ.  Ask for a copy of that book.  We'll send it at no cost to anyone who prayed along with Dennis, anyone who wants to give his life to Christ today.  Call 1-800-FLTODAY and ask about the book, "Right With God."                         Let me also mention that we have our entire visit with Dr. Bill Bright available on audiocassette or CD.  If you'd like to hear the entire conversation with Dr. Bright – we've had to edit it here for broadcast purposes – but you can hear the unedited dialog on cassette or on CD, and in our conversation with Dr. Bright, we had the opportunity to ask him about the books that he has written, and he said that his favorite of all of those books was a book called, "God: Discover His Character," a book about the attributes of our great God, and we have that book available as well.  If you would like to deepen your understanding and your knowledge of who God is, and I'll tell you, all of us can benefit from that exercise, get a copy of Dr. Bright's book.  Again, it's called "God:  Discover His Character," and you can ask for a copy when you call 1-800-FLTODAY or you can request a copy online at FamilyLife.com.                         We always enjoy hearing from our listeners, Dennis.  We just recently heard from a number of our Legacy Partners, many of them writing to request prayer on a variety of subjects, and we do pray for you when you contact us and let us know what your needs are, and we appreciate those of you who are able to help with our financial needs as a ministry, either as a Legacy Partner or as a FamilyLife Champion.  If you would like to make a contribution to FamilyLife or if you'd like to contact us so that we can be praying for you, you can write to FamilyLife at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  The zip code is 72221.  Once again, write to FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  The zip code is 72221.  You can also donate online at FamilyLife.com or you can call to make a donation at 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.                         Well, tomorrow we're going to continue to hear excerpts from our recent dialogue with Dr. Bill Bright, the past president and founder of Campus Crusade for Christ.  I hope you can be back with us for that.                         I want to thank our engineer today, Robbie Neal, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.   We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com 

A Grace Disguised (Part 1) - Jerry SittserA Grace Disguised (Part 2) - Jerry SittserA Grace Disguised (Part 3) - Jerry SittserFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Descending Into the Valley Guest:                         Jerry Sittser From the series:          A Grace Disguised  (Day 1 of 3)  Bob:  There are times in the midst of trials and traumas of life when we wonder to ourselves where is God?  Why did He let this happen?   For Jerry Sittser one of those events occurred in 1991 when he and his wife and their four children and Jerry's mother were hit head on by a vehicle traveling at 85 miles per hour.  The collision was fatal for Jerry's wife and for his mom and for one of his four children.  As Jerry reflects back on that event today he sees it as something that was ultimately faith affirming.   Jerry Sittser:  Through a long and often difficult journey I really did discover the Christian faith is true.  Grace really is available to get us through these hard stretches of life.  The ultimate message of Christianity is not self help it is God's help.   Bob:  This is FamilyLife Today for Monday July 6th.  Our host is the President of FamilyLife Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll hear today how a tragic car accident can be a grace disguised.   Welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Thanks for joining us.  You and I were having a conversation not long ago with Dr. Al Moeller, the President of Southern Seminary and we asked him about questions he gets thrown by the secular media.  We said the tough questions are the ones they ask you.  What are the ones that put you on the spot?  Without even thinking he said we always come back to the issue of the problem of evil and suffering.  How can there be a good God when there is suffering in the world?   Dennis:  We don't always know what God is up to.  He is God and we are not.  We have a guest with us today on FamilyLife Today that I think is going to minister to a lot of our listeners.  Actually I was introduced to this guest by my wife Barbara, who joins us on FamilyLife Today as well.  Welcome Sweetie. Barbara Rainey:  Thanks.  I'm glad to be here. Dennis:  Jerry Sittser has written this book A Grace Disguised which is a story out of his own life and it occurred a number of years ago.  Jerry lives in Spokane Washington up in the eastern section of that great state.  He is a professor of theology at Whitworth University and has a Masters of Divinity from Fuller Theological Seminary and has his doctorate in history from the University of Chicago.  This leaves me with only one question Jerry, White Sox or Cubs? (laughter)Bob:  Or were you there long enough to even care? Dennis:  Oh he had to be if he had his PHD.   Jerry Sittser:  Dodgers! (laughter) Dennis:  Well, I do welcome you to the broadcast and I am grateful for you writing this book, A Grace Disguised.  I want Barbara to share with our listeners to help put in context out of which she gave me Jerry's book.  Bob:  Was this something somebody gave you as a gift?   Barbara:  It was a book that someone had recommended to me a number of years ago.  I bought it and started reading it and it was in my library.  But I didn't finish the book until last summer after our granddaughter Molly was born and only lived seven days and then died. As we began to try to make sense of what God had done and what He was up to I pulled that book off the shelf.  This time I had a real heart for it.  I needed it.  I read it all the way through and I was constantly underlining and reading portions of it to Dennis and saying “listen to what this says.”   I bought several copies and gave one to a couple of my daughters.  I gave one to Molly's mother, Rebecca, and a couple of our other daughters, too.  I said you need to have this in your library and if you don't read it all the way through right now you will read it eventually. Dennis:  It is really a love story of sorts that started when you met your wife Linda.  How did you meet her, Jerry? Jerry Sittser:  I was a student at Hope College and she was a student at Hope College in Holland, Michigan.  After I experienced a conversion between my sophomore and junior year we became very good friends.  Really best friends.  One day I was standing in a group of people and somebody got my attention from maybe 100 yards away and I turned and said something to them I'm sure.  I was a little cocky back then.   (laughter) Linda was in that circle and I turned back and our eyes met and that was it right there.  I just fell in love on the spot.    Dennis:  You were smitten. Jerry Sittser:  Oh, my goodness was I smitten. Bob:  But you'd known her for months before this?Jerry Sittser:  We were very good friends, yes. Bob:  So what in that moment you don't know? Jerry Sittser:  I don't know but our eyes met and it was just different.  So I asked her out a few days later and we were married eight months later.   Dennis:  No, no, no.  I want to know how you asked her to marry you because it has to be a great story. Jerry Sittser:  Well, we went up to some property that my family owned off the Grand River up in the hills.  We made a day of it and did some hiking and I had hidden a family heirloom a little silver container with the engagement ring inside it.  That also was the family stone.  I asked her to marry me.   Dennis:  You were married for 20 years.   Jerry Sittser:  Twenty years—just shy of 20 years and we had four children.   Dennis:  She was a homeschooler and she enjoyed teaching your kids.  Taking them on field trips, right? Jerry Sittser:  She was a multitalented woman.  She was very bright.  She was a professional musician and singer.  She was the choir director and the director of the professional children's choir in Spokane and a paid soloist at our home church and also a homeschooler.  Dennis:  You were on a field trip where you went to Idaho and it was not a normal field trip that you would think of when you think of homeschoolers.   Jerry Sittser:  She had just completed a unit on Native American cultures to my two oldest who were being homeschooled at the time.  We went on a field trip to a Native American powwow.  We had dinner with the tribal leaders and had a wonderful time and wonderful conversation.   Ironically one of the topics that came up was the curse of alcoholism in the tribe and the violence that often resulted from it.  They spoke with great pain over that.  These were really wonderful people.  Some fine Christian people.    After the dinner with them we went to the powwow and enjoyed it.  My two daughters who were then eight and four actually went out and danced with the tribe for a while.  I continued my conversation with Linda and several of the tribal leaders until about 8:30 and then we decided to go home. Dennis:  Now this was 1991? Jerry Sittser:  1991 September 27.  Dennis:   And you were there with your wife and four children plus your own mom. Jerry Sittser:   My mom came for the weekend.  She and my wife were going to go dress shopping for a new dress for a solo performance she was going to be doing of the Messiah in December.  Typical for my mom she brought 12 quarts of frozen blueberries packed in ice.  It was so typical for what she would do.  She was a wonderful woman, a great grandma, and a great mom.  She was very close to our family.   Dennis:  You had gone to Idaho for this field trip and you decided to head back home to Spokane at that point? Jerry Sittser:  We did.  It was dark out obviously and on a lonely stretch of highway only about 10 minutes from where the powwow was held I noticed a car coming on at a really rapid rate of speed.  It slowed down just a little bit at a curve and so I was alert to this.   Without any warning he just drove right into me.  He missed the curve and plowed head on at 85 miles per hour.  In fact it was so head on that his car cart wheeled over ours.  So it didn't roll it cart wheeled down the highway.   It was awful.  In the wake of that accident as soon as I could I collected myself.  I was not injured seriously just bruised and that sort of thing.  I looked around and knew that it was really bad.  My mother who was sitting way in the back was seriously injured.  My four year old I could tell was dead.  She had a broken neck.  I tried to get a pulse and did mouth to mouth but it was hopeless.  I could tell my wife, Linda, was catastrophically injured, too.   My other kids were dazed, crying, and screaming.  It was chaotic.  All the windows were broken out of the car.  My door could open and I got the kids out who were mobile.  Katherine was eight and John was six and David was two.  I found out later that John had a broken femur and some other injuries but the other two kids were just bruised but okay.  I went back to try to tend to Linda.  I got a pulse but knew she wasn't going to live because her injuries were just too severe.  I did mouth to mouth on Diana Jane but she was gone.   I got to my mother only briefly but then something beautiful happened.  You find these flowers in the midst of ashes almost right away.  People began to stop.  The scene was chaotic.  The driver survived but his wife who was nine months pregnant died and the unborn baby died as well.  There were five casualties in the accident.   Some guy got out of the car and went over to my mother and reached out to her through the broken window and held her hand and stroked her arm until she died.  That is a beautiful act of grace to me.  It was very courageous of him in the midst of that chaos and that violence to break through that with mercy and love.  I wish I knew who that man was because I'd like to thank him. Bob:  What a surreal moment that had to be for you.  Almost like you've stepped out of time and space and your body…I don't know how to describe it other than just surreal.Jerry Sittser:  Yes, it was surreal.  I have such vivid memories to this day.   Nothing has faded at all.  First it was a nightmare to have those kinds of memories.  It's not so bad anymore because it's been integrated into the landscape of my life.  It doesn't haunt me like it used to.   We waited a long time before emergency vehicles came and they took over.  I got to a phone as soon as I could to call my sister to say something unspeakable had happened.  After about an hour the survivors, namely my three children Katherine, John and David and I were all put in the same emergency vehicle and were transported another hour up to Coeur d'Alene for emergency care.   That one hour was probably the most significant hour in my life.  It really was the turning point for me.  It was like a wormhole from one reality to another.  Honestly it's the most accurate way I can describe it.  Time ceased to have meaning.  It could have been ten years.  That period of time is frozen in my memory and it was probably the most rational moment I've ever had in my life.  It was quiet.  John was sedated.  The other kids were whimpering but it was quiet.  The emergency personnel didn't say anything and I had one hour to just be.  I thought about the accident and the scene.  I knew what had happened and I thought of what would be as a result.   I considered the task set before me.  I had a burden that was placed on my shoulders and in a sense a divine mandate that said you draw a line in the sand right now and decide what you want to be and what you want to come from this experience.  And I did.  I said, I want the bleeding to stop right here.  This is it.  I don't want to do things that are going to set in motion more and more pain and more and more bleeding that could go on for generations.   I made the basic decision right then and there that I was going to somehow by the grace of God respond and live this story out in a way that was going to be redemptive.  Redemption was really the key term that just kept coming back to me.  Redemption.  This is not the final word.   Dennis:  I want out listeners to hear what's wrapped up in your statement because you make this statement in your book.  You said loss does not have to be the defining moment in our lives instead the defining moment can be our response to that loss.  It's not what happens to us that matters so much as what happens in us.  You really believe that don't you? Jerry Sittser:  I do believe it by the grace of God.  I didn't write a self help book here.  I don't believe that.  The ultimate message of Christianity is not self help it is God's help.  Through a long and often difficult journey I really did discover that the Christian faith is true.   Grace really is available to get us through these hard stretches of life.  My response of choosing to trust the grace of God was far more significant than the event itself.  You know my kids would say the same thing today.  They would say that the accident is actually not that significant.  It is what's come out of it that is significant.  Bob:  What seems remarkable to me as you describe this hour of rational clarity is the absence of grief.  I think of someone living through what you have just lived through and I would think this person would be a grieving basket case.  It's not that you didn't experience grief.   Jerry Sittser:  No, I did. Bob:  Do you think this was kind of a shock response or was this the grace of God giving you this moment of clarity to prepare you for what was ahead?  Jerry Sittser:  I suppose you could say there was some shock involved in it but Bob, there was something more than that honestly.  I look back on it this day with a sense of wonder.  It wasn't simply that I had not absorbed the significance.   I knew what had happened to me.   It wasn't even as if I was holding it off.  I think God gave me that gift.  I think He gave me one hour to decide what I was going to believe and where I was going to head and I walked out of that emergency vehicle in Coeur d'Alene into a different world.  I collapsed.  It was hard going for a long time.   Bob:  Can I ask the two of you did you experience anything similar to that, Barbara, in going through what you went through with the death of Molly? Barbara:  I think we did but it wasn't anywhere near as dramatic as what Jerry was describing.  We watched our kids and as we watched them respond to the news that Molly was not going to live they had a choice to make in those first moments.  I think those early moments of facing tragedy and loss in a crisis like that are the defining moments.   They decided they were going to believe God.  They were going to believe that He was good and that He was sufficient and that He knew what He was doing.  That really set the course for them from there on out.  So I think in the moment of crisis I think God gives us that opportunity to choose.  Do we believe Him or not?   Jerry Sittser:    I like what Barbara said about defining a course because that's different from solving all the problems.  When you suffer a loss whether it be divorce or terminal illness or loss of a job it can be other things that are a little less dramatic and tragic.  I think we do have the power to set a course and that makes a huge difference over a long period of time.  It doesn't solve all the problems but it gets us going in a particular direction.  I think I did that by the grace of God.   Bob:  You know people or have met people who just dissolved in their moment of pain and didn't have that rational clarity that you described.   Jerry Sittser:  I think what happens is we give some kind of tragedy more power than it deserves.  It does become the defining moment instead of the response being the defining moment.  It's the thing itself and then pretty soon it's affecting other relationships.    It's affecting life habits that we form and 20 or 30 years later that divorce or loss or whatever continues to dominate our lives.  That's what I call the second death and it's actually worse than the initial death.  Far worse than the loss of Linda and my mom and Diana Jane would have been say the loss my children would have experienced in my bitterness.  In fact I have an interesting story to tell you.   About six months or a year after the accident I got an anonymous telephone call from a young woman who said, “Mr. Sittser I want to tell you my story.  When I was a young girl my mother died of cancer and I've been in therapy for six years.  I thought to myself this is not a helpful conversation she said no let me continue my story.   “I'm in therapy not because I lost my mother but I lost my father at the same time and he is still alive. He became non functional and so overcome with grief and bitterness that I lost both parents but my dad is still alive.  She said, don't let that happen to you” and she hung up the phone.   Now she didn't give me new information but it was a wonderful reminder to me that the role I was playing was significant.  By my own attitude and spirit I was setting a course and I was giving cues to my children.   Dennis:  You are also making choices for your own life that are going to determine who you become as a man.  I think of the listeners who have eavesdropped today in terms of hearing this story.  I wonder what they are facing because all of us experience loss.  If you live long enough you will experience loss.  The Bible is a very lofty book but it's also a very gritty book that meets us in the midst of our grief.   You made a statement Jerry that I want to underline.  I really understand why a loss can become central to our lives and why the grief that surrounds it can become the defining moment.  It hurts.  It is terrible.  As you describe it it's catastrophic but I like what you did in your book.  You called us away from the focus on the circumstances to focus on the God of all grace and mercy who can bring hope and healing.  He can keep us from becoming embittered in that process.   Bob:  Barbara, in the weeks that followed in the birth and death of your granddaughter Molly you had a lot of people send you quotes and recommend articles or books.  This book was the one God used most powerfully, wasn't it? Barbara:  Yes.  It was.   There were other things, too, but this was the book that I read through that really resonated in my soul.  Jerry talked about not just the loss of death but all kinds of loss and how our identity is wrapped up in how we respond to that loss.  It was really profound in my life.   Bob:  I think both of you will be encouraged to know that we have a lot of listeners over the last several weeks who have contacted us to get a copy of Jerry's book called A Grace Disguised.  We still have copies in our FamilyLife Resource Center.   You can go to our web site FamilyLifeToday.com and find information about Jerry's book which is called A Grace Disguised:  How the Soul Grows Through Loss.  You'll find it available there along with copies of the book that you've just finished writing Barbara along with your daughter Rebecca called A Symphony in the Dark: Hearing God's Voice in Seasons of Grief.  It focuses in on the events of a year ago when your granddaughter Molly was born and lived for seven days and how your family processed that season of grief.   Again both of these books are available from us at FamilyLife Today.  Go to our web site FamilyLife Today.com.  You can order online from us if you'd like or if it's easier call 1-800-FL-TODAY.  That's 1-800-358-6329.  That's 1 800 “F”as in family “L” as in life and then the word TODAY and we can make arrangements to have whichever of these books you'd like or both of them sent out to you. We also want to take a couple of minutes and say thanks to those of you who help underwrite this daily radio program.  Your financial support of FamilyLife Today is what keeps this program on the air.  It helps defray the costs of production and syndication to keep this program on more than a thousand radio stations and outlets all across the country.  It is available online and audio streaming and as a podcast.  Thanks to those of you who help make that happen by making donations on a regular basis for the ministry of FamilyLife Today.   This month if you're able to help with a donation of any amount to the ministry of FamilyLife Today we have a CD we'd like to send you.  This CD features a conversation we had several months ago with Nancy Leigh DeMoss the popular author and speaker and the host of the daily radio program, Revive Our Hearts.  Our conversation was on the subject of forgiveness and what the Bible says about forgiveness.  Nancy has written a great book called Choosing Forgiveness and I know that this is a subject that a lot of people struggle with.  Jerry you addressed it in your book A Grace Disguised.   This CD is our way of saying thank you to you this month when you support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount.  If you're making that donation online at FamilyLifeToday.com all you have to do is type the word “forgive” in the key code box on the donation form and we'll know to send a copy of the CD to you. Or call toll-free 1 800 FLTODAY.   Make your donation over the phone and just ask for the CD on forgiveness or the CD with Nancy Leigh DeMoss.  Again we are happy to send it to you and we do appreciate your support of this ministry.  Thanks for partnering with us.   Tomorrow we're going to talk about life getting back to normal after a catastrophic event like the one Jerry Sittser experienced almost two decades ago now.  We'll find out if life ever does get back to normal or if it's just a new normal.  I hope you can join us for that.   I want to thank our engineer today Keith Lynch and our entire broadcast production team on behalf of our host Dennis Rainey I'm Bob Lepine.  We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today.  Hope for tomorrow. © 2009 FamilyLife   We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com     

A Grace Disguised (Part 1) - Jerry SittserA Grace Disguised (Part 2) - Jerry SittserA Grace Disguised (Part 3) - Jerry SittserFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Walking By Faith Through Irreversible Loss Guest:                         Jerry Sittser From the series:          A Grace Disguised (Day 2 of 3)  Bob:  Jerry Sittser understands grief and loss in a profound way.   He and three of his children escaped from a car accident that took the life of his wife, his mother and one of his four children.  How long would it take for someone to recover from a loss like that?  Here's Jerry Sittser.  Jerry Sittser:  Through a long and often difficult journey I really did discover the Christian faith is true.  Grace really is available to get us through these hard stretches of life.  The ultimate message of Christianity is not self help.  It is God's help.   Bob:  This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, July 7th.  Our host is the President of FamilyLife Dennis Rainey and I'm Bob Lepine.  Jerry Sittser says when the landscape of life has been permanently altered God's grace is there to help you make some sense of the loss and to give you peace.   Welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Thanks for joining us.  We have been talking a lot not just this week but in recent weeks about the subject of loss.  We're trying to help listeners understand that your responses to the loss you will experience in life will help shape you and your family and your marriage and your whole life. Dennis:  It will.  In fact, our guest on today's program is really the result of losses that Barbara and I have experienced in recent days.  In fact I want to welcome Barbara to the broadcast again.   Barbara Rainey:  Thank you. Dennis:  Thanks for joining us again Sweetheart and thanks for recommending Jerry Sittser's book A Grace Disguised. Jerry I want to welcome you to our broadcast.  Welcome back. Jerry Sittser:  Thank you.  It's a privilege.  Jerry is the professor of theology at Whitworth University in Spokane Washington.  As we mentioned earlier Jerry's book was used in our family as it was recommended to Barbara by a friend.  She started reading it after our daughter Rebecca and her husband, Jake, lost their daughter Molly after only seven days.  This book really helped Barbara and me as well as Jake and Rebecca process through how the soul processes grief.   We mentioned earlier how you lost your wife, your mom and your daughter in a tragic car wreck in 1991.  That really is the genesis of this book.  I have to ask you a big picture question.  If you could summarize what you think God is up to when He allows us to experience grief what would you say?  You've experienced it on a profound level that few people will ever experience it.  What do you think He's up to in grief? Jerry Sittser:  I am not sure I can answer that question in a word.  That's a very difficult question actually.  I think over all I would say that God is in the business of reclaiming people who have turned away from Him.  He created us in His image.  He created us to be gloriously beautiful people who participate in the divine glory.  The perfect relationship that exists between Father, Son and Holy Spirit and we've turned away from that.   That divine image has been marred and made perverse.  He wants not simply to save us.  He wants to reclaim us and restore us and one of the ways that happens like it or not is through suffering.  I honestly think suffering is necessary in the Christian faith.   It happens in lots of different ways some we can choose like the suffering that comes when we deny our appetites and practice self discipline.  John Calvin called it self denial.   Sometimes that suffering is imposed upon us through some kind of loss or tragedy.   Either way we need some kind of suffering not masochistically but honestly realistic to become the holy people God wants us to be and to draw us into a vital relationship with Him.   Bob:   Grief that we experience when we go through a loss to what extent are we in…I don't want to use the word control but to what extent do we have power over that grief?  And to what extent does the grief have power over us?  Do you know what I'm asking here? Jerry Sittser:  Well, I'll start by saying this.  I don't think God causes these things as if He were some kind of divine manipulator who hovers above the ground and zaps us with cancer or divorce or job loss or loss of portfolio or loss of a loved one.  I think that is a very poor mechanistic view of the sovereignty of God.  I think God is in it.  God's sovereignty is in it.  I don't think God causes it in that kind of crude kind of way.  I will say God uses it.  God's in it in that sense.   Our choice is whether we're going to respond to the work the sanctifying work God is trying to do in our lives.  Does grief and loss have power?  Of course it does.  It can change the entire course of our lives.   But I think the greater power is the way we respond by faith to God's work in our lives.  It's a hard thing to say.  It sounds so easy and so trivial.  Oh you know God's trying to sanctify us.  I almost resist saying it because I don't what it to come across kind of cheap as if I'm quoting a Bible answer or a Bible verse and that verse is going to make everything right.  Well, God works all things out for good for those who love Him.  I mean that is a true statement.  I believe that with all my heart but I also believe that is extraordinarily hard to work out in normal life.   Bob:  There were times when I'm sure the grief had to be…I don't know if I want to say overwhelming or just so compelling that you felt powerless against it.   Jerry Sittser:  Of course.  I think any true catastrophic loss leads to that.  That's the difference between a normal loss from which you'll recover like you're high school athlete and you break your leg and lose the season.  It's a big loss and it's hard but you're going to get your leg back again and you might be able to play another season.   There's a big difference between that kind of loss though significant and the loss of a spouse or the loss of your health.  I call those irreversible losses and I'll tell you they have power.  We're fools not to acknowledge the power they have.   Barbara:  Interestingly I was with our daughter Rebecca a couple of weeks ago and she and her husband, Jacob, had renewed hope.  They had gotten pregnant with baby #2 and then at 14 weeks gestation the baby died.  She had to deliver this still born baby at 16 weeks.  Go through the labor and delivery which was traumatic in and of itself but as I was there for a week and we had many really wonderful conversations.   During that time one of the things Rebecca said to me that was really profound was we're not as fragile as we think we are.  We feel like in these really hard times that we won't survive but she said I've learned that we can handle a lot more than we think that we can handle.  Because God strengthens us to go through these things that he takes us through.   She said I'm just amazed that I can go through this and still live.  Because you feel like you won't live.  You feel like you're going to die because of the burden of the grief.  She said I've learned we are stronger than we think we are.  We aren't as fragile as people as we imagined that we would be when looking at a situation like that. Bob:  Did you feel like you weren't going to live in the days that followed your wife's death? Jerry Sittser:  No I think that maybe that's a little too extreme.  I knew somewhere deep inside my soul that God was still God.  I had to live in this dynamic tension between acknowledging the severity of the loss on all levels.  Not just intellectual but emotional.   Grief has its way.   It is corrosive.  It gets to you.  You can push it away for a month or a few months.  You can work hard.  You can develop bad habits and do whatever you want to run away but eventually it's going to get its way.  It's going to tell you that those people are gone and they are never going to come back again.  So that's one side of things.   Acknowledging the severity of the loss on the other hand also requires us to live by faith and to recognize there is a bigger story being told.  God is somehow in this even if we don't see how He is.  Even if we don't have any evidence at our immediate disposal that God is God and God is good somehow we have to believe that that is still the case.    You have to live in that tension.  If you pretend it's not severe it's like painting over mold.  You don't want to give that mold too much power either.   Recognize that you can get rid of that mold and put on fresh paint and make that wall beautiful again.  It's a very delicate process to navigate through the months and sometimes the years involved. Bob:  So you're not saying to somebody keep a stiff upper lip and deny the anguish of your soul in the midst of grief. Jerry Sittser:  I don't think so.  I don't think the Bible teaches that either.   You look at the book of Psalms and fifty percent or about 75 of them are devoted to the Psalms of lament…The anguish of the soul in the face of unanswerable questions or so it seems at the time and unimaginable loss and grief…the trail of enemies and this kind of thing.   We have a kind of emotional handbook right in the Bible that's acknowledging the severity of these kind of losses.  I think it's not wise to pretend that they don't exist or they aren't serious.  They don't have the final word.  That's what a Christian believes.  The final word is the Resurrection.   Dennis:  Jerry, you describe a scene in the mortuary where you visited the three caskets and you asked to have them opened.  You were there alone for about an hour.  You said that point ushered you into a darkness.  Describe what took place in that setting in the mortuary? Jerry Sittser:  Well, it's difficult.  You have to use images because language just fails as it does to all people who've gone through some kind of severe loss.  I felt like I was floating just in the universe and utterly cut off and alienated.  I looked around to see billions of stars.  The world seemed like a cold impersonal place.  It was really an awful experience for me.  But it also turned out to be a significant turning point for me too.   That very night or a few nights later I had a kind of waking dream.  It was a dream but it was not like a typical dream at all.  It was very vivid and real to me.  It is to this day.  In this dream I was chasing frantically after the sun that was slowly setting in the west.  I remember as I was running that there was the frantic panicked terrifying feeling.  It was as if that sun beat me to the horizon it would never come back to me again.   Finally the sun did sink below the horizon and I stopped exhausted and looked with a sense of foreboding to the darkness from the east that was sweeping over me.  Then I awoke from the dream and I felt a kind of extastential darkness.  It was if I was going to be in this darkness for the rest of my life.  It was really a terrible feeling.   I told a cousin this dream a few days later and he reminded me of a poem written by John Donne a very famous 17th century Anglican poet.  In the poem Donne says that on a flat map east and west are far removed from each other.  The farther east you go the farther removed you are from the west.  But on a globe if you go east you eventually meet west.   Then I talked to my sister about this and she said that's the cue for you Jerry.  If you keep running west to try to stay in the fiery warmth of the setting sun you will actually stay in the darkness longer.  But if you have the courage to plunge into that darkness heading east even if you're hanging by one thin thread of faith all the sooner will you come to the sunrise.  That was really a cue for me to head into darkness and let grief have its way with me assuming that I would all the sooner come to the sunrise.   Bob:  You did have a period of darkness in the days that followed.  There was depression and daily weeping.   As we sit here 18 years later talking about trusting in God in the midst of those days it was a hard journey you were on. Jerry Sittser:  It was a hard journey.  There were lots of tears and lots of tears of my kids.  Actually the hardest period was after the tears stopped.   The tears kind of turned to brine.  It became thick and bitter.  Almost like molasses.   It didn't flow quite so easily.  That was darker still.  This is hard work.  It is for anybody who goes through a severe loss.   Dennis:   Yes and watching our daughter go through this both Barbara and I as parents have felt so powerless apart from our prayers.  There really are no words to be able to share.  Our daughter found a lot of healing and help in writing a blog.  I'll never forget one of her blog entries where she described mourning the loss of her daughter and finding comfort by crawling up into the crib and weeping for the loss of her baby girl.   As those who peer in other people's lives coach us a bit on how we can keep an appropriate distance and not be trite in what we say.  What should we say and do for that person who is entering or is in the valley of the shadow of death? Jerry Sittser:   I would say presence, consistency, patience, and symbolic gestures.  I have a young friend—well, she's not so young any more—who was the accompanist to Linda's voice students when we lived in Iowa and she has sent me a long letter and card on the anniversary of the accident for 18 years recalling incidences, sharing life and expressing sympathy.  She's never too syrupy.  I find that kind of gesture profoundly meaningful.   When we aren't affected by loss in the dailyness of life it's easy to think that after two or three months people should be getting on with the business of life because we are getting on with the business of life.  But for those who are affected in a primary kind of way they are the ones who have suffered the loss and whose landscape of life is permanently altered they are living in that for a long period of time in one sense for the rest of their lives.   Now their perspective is going to change over time.  Mt. Rainier is always 14,410 feet.   It looks a lot bigger when you're a mile away than when you are 50 miles away.  The size never changes.  Our perspective can change over time admittedly so I think that dailyness, consistency, presence and those symbolic gestures are probably the best we can do.   Then simply pick up on cues.  The cues like when they are ready to talk.  Be ready to listen.  When they really feel like they are ready to receive a word then you give it but never before that.   Dennis:  Yes. Jerry Sittser:  And what you don't want to do is use words to try to somehow push the loss and its significance away.  Sometimes words can actually exacerbate the problem rather than help the problem.  I mean Job's three friends did their best work when they just shut their mouths for a week and sat with Job on that heap of ashes.   Bob:  Barbara were there people in your life or in Jake and Rebecca's lives who did some of those same things like symbolic gestures that Jerry is talking about.   Barbara:  Yes, there have been some remarkable young men and women friends of Jacob and Rebecca's who have done things that I wouldn't have thought to do.   On the very first Easter after Molly died one of their friends brought an Easter basket that was pink with pink candy and a pink bunny and bow and left it on their front porch and said Happy Easter.  It would have never occurred to me to do that but it was a powerful statement of love.  They didn't stay themselves.  They just left it there.   So there have been those kinds of things that people have thought to do and what we've noticed and learned by watching them is if you have an idea of something like that act on it.  Because so often I think we think of an idea and think well that might not be a good thing to do.   The people who have encouraged Jacob and Rebecca the most are the ones who have had the thought to write them a note or have had the thought to drop off the Easter basket.  There have been other things too that they've thought of and acted on it. Bob:  Jerry I hear Barbara's story about the Easter basket and I think to myself boy, I don't know that I'd want to do that.  It's almost like saying here's a reminder on Easter that you lost your child nine months ago… Barbara:  They know it anyway. Jerry Sittser:  As if they aren't thinking the same thing.  Are you kidding me? Barbara:  Of course they think about it. Jerry Sittser:  We did a lot of things as a family, too.  We always observe the anniversary of the accident and at key milestones we'd have dinner parties and I'd invite our key community of friends over and we'd observe it and I'd thank them.   My wife Linda would have been 60 in April and I talked to all of my kids and we kind of laughed about what it would be like for them to have a 60 year old mother.  We have been pretty mindful of these important milestones along the way even after all these years.  It's not at all bitter any more.  We have a lot of good stories that have happened in these last 18 years.  It's been very rich and meaningful for us but we still are mindful of this loss and these important dates and milestones.    Dennis:  Sometimes the grief will be expressed in a phone conversation or in person or in a letter or email where it's clear that the person is truly grieving.  At that moment they are really hurting.   Recently I received an email from our daughter and her husband just around what they were experiencing and I started weeping.  I just wept.  I thought what can I say?  I just wrote back an email that said I'm weeping with you, Dad.Jerry Sittser:  Yes.    Dennis:  I think many times in our desire to help as you just exhorted us Jerry it's back to that statement—I have regretted my speech but never my silence.  Sometimes the gift of presence and being there and letting someone know you are praying for them and you are there for them may be all that's needed in that moment.  Never underestimate the power of a human being touching another life at a point of tremendous trauma and hurt in a catastrophic loss like you experienced. Bob:  And coming alongside with a gift like a copy of Jerry's book and you can say you may not want to read this right now but at the right time I believe this book will minister to you in a profound way.   We have copies of Jerry's book called A Grace Disguised: How the Soul Grows Through Loss in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center.  We would love to send you a copy.  Go to our web site FamilyLife Today.com.  Again that's FamilyLifeToday.com.  You can order online from us if you'd like or if it's easier call 1-800-FL-TODAY.  That's 1-800-358-6329.   Let me also mention a book you have written Barbara along with your daughter Rebecca when your granddaughter Molly was born and lived for seven days before she died.  That book is called A Symphony in the Dark: Hearing God's Voice in Seasons of Grief.  You can find more information about that book on our web site as well FamilyLife Today.com.  Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY.  That's 1 800 “F”as in family “L” as in life and then the word TODAY.   We also want to take a couple of minutes and say thanks to those of you who support the ministry of FamilyLife Today by making donations on a regular basis.  We are listener supported.  The costs associated with producing and syndicating are underwritten by those of you who contact us to make a donation to keep us on the air and to support the other ministries of FamilyLife.   We do appreciate that support and in fact this month we'd like to say thank you if you're able to support the ministry with a donation of any amount.  We sat down not long ago with Nancy Leigh DeMoss the author of a number of books and the host of the daily radio program Revive Our Hearts.  We talked to her about the issue of forgiveness and what the Bible has to say about choosing to forgive.  Nancy has written a great book called Choosing Forgiveness and if you'd like to receive a CD of our conversation with her on this subject you can make a donation this month of any amount to the ministry of FamilyLife Today and simply request the CD as a thank you gift.   If you're making that donation online at FamilyLifeToday.com all you have to do is type the word “forgive” in the key code box on the donation form and we'll know to send a copy of the CD to you. Or call toll-free 1 800 FLTODAY.  Make your donation over the phone and just ask for the CD of our conversation with Nancy Leigh DeMoss.  Again we are happy to send it to you and we do appreciate your support of this ministry.  Thanks for partnering with us.   Tomorrow we'll talk about how we can be used by God to bring comfort to others as they experience loss and hope you can be with us as we continue our conversation with Jerry Sittser.I want to thank our engineer today Keith Lynch and our entire broadcast production team on behalf of our host Dennis Rainey I'm Bob Lepine.  We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today.  Hope for tomorrow. © 2009 FamilyLife   We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com     

Reading to Children (Part 1) - Sally Lloyd-JonesReading to Children (Part 2) - Sally Lloyd-JonesFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Reading to Children Guest:                        Sally Lloyd-Jones                             From the series:       Telling Stories to Children (Day 2 of 2)               Bob: Do you read stories to your children? Do you read Bible stories to them? Sally Lloyd-Jones has a caution for you. Sally: Whenever we read a story and then we say, “Well, what that story's about…”—whatever we put on the other side of “about”—that becomes the only thing that story's about. The minute we do that—it's terrible / it's the worst thing you could ever say. I'm passionate about that because of what that does—is, basically, you've decided what that story is about / you've decided what God might want to say to that child—but what if God wants to say something completely different? Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, December 8th. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine. There is great power in telling good stories. We'll hear from a great story-teller today, Sally Lloyd-Jones. Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Friday edition. We're having a delightful time this week with a delightful friend.  1:00 Before we introduce her again, we're in the final weeks of the year. This is a pretty important, pretty strategic time for us as a ministry. Dennis: It is! I'll tell you something that delights me—I love hearing from listeners. I heard, recently, from a single mom who said our broadcast gives her hope every day to keep on keeping on. Here's one from somebody who struggled through the heartbreak of a divorce and a broken family—she said: “It helped me grow in Christ immensely.” And then one other: “Our marriage was falling apart. I started listening, daily, to FamilyLife Today. The information I received gave me the strength to fight for my marriage.” We have a lot of folks, Bob, who are finding help and hope for their marriage and family. But in order for us to do that, we need listeners to step up and say: “I want to stand with you guys as you guys proclaim the biblical blueprints for a marriage and a family. You're ministering to marriages and families and leaving legacies, all across the nation and all around the globe.”  2:00 Would you stand with us right now? Bob: It's easy to make a yearend contribution. You can do it, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. There's a matching-gift opportunity that's in effect so, when you give your donation, it's going to be doubled—the impact of your giving will be doubled. You'll help us reach more people in 2018 and that's our goal—is to reach more people with practical biblical help and hope. Again, you can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Now, back to our conversation with our guest, Sally Lloyd-Jones. We've been talking about holidays; we've been talking about family, and fun, and about food. In fact, you don't think there can be good Christmas food in Great Britain. When you were over there, you thought all the food was horrible; right? Dennis: “I was trying to find out a way to get across the English Channel to get to France.” [Laughter] Bob: Have you watched The Great British Bake Off? Have you watched that show? Dennis: I have not, Bob. Bob: Have you watched it? Sally: Yes; everyone's obsessed! 3:00 Bob: I know, it's amazing; isn't it? Dennis: Bob, I'm concerned about you—you're watching The British Bake Off! Bob: The Great British Bake Off is a great reality show. Barbara, you would love The Great British Bake Off. Barbara: I would? Okay. Bob: So, make Dennis watch it. Dennis: No; she wouldn't; she does not like to cook! [Laughter] Barbara: I enjoy watching other people cook. Bob: That's exactly the point. Sally: That's perfectly fine with me! Dennis: I do want to welcome Sally Lloyd-Jones back to the broadcast. Welcome back.  Sally: Thank you so much. Dennis: We're thrilled to have you. She was born and raised in Africa, schooled in England, lives in New York City, but will celebrate Christmas back in England— Barbara: —eating figgy pudding—we found out. Dennis: —eating figgy pudding. Bob: That's right! Dennis: She is a great author. She's written a number of best-selling books, including The Jesus Storybook Bible, Song of the Stars, and one we are going to talk about today called, Found, which is the 23rd Psalm. And then a book about a child's identity, and his voice in this world their living in. How many books have you written? Sally: Over 25. I had to count them up the other day. Barbara: Wow! Dennis: Yes? That's amazing!   4:00 Your whole journey started out writing books for children when you were a little girl and you read a book that opened your mind and your heart to a whole new world with books. Sally: Yes! When I was about seven, I thought books were to learn, to be serious, [and] to do at school. I wasn't a child that really thrived at school—I was a bit dreamy. I was given this book called The Complete Nonsense by Edward Lear. In England, a lot of people know that book; but they may not in America—he's not quite so well-known here. But I'd advise everyone to get that book! I'm not getting anything—it sounds like I'm getting referrals—but I'm not! I'm just passionate about it.  The reason I am is that it changed everything. I got this book, and it was the first book I had ever read all the way through—I was seven. I opened up the book and there were these insane, in a good way, crazy limericks about people with long noses and great, long beards and birds that nested in the beards and then he did all the drawings in pen himself. They were completely like just zany!  5:00 It was a revelation. I had no idea you could have so much fun inside a book. It changed everything. From then on, I wrote limericks and illustrations and then inflicted them on my poor friends and family.  The reason I tell that story is that they often say that whatever you were doing when you were maybe six—five or six or seven—before you became self-conscious, and you became what you thought everyone wanted you to be—whatever you loved doing at that point, often clues you in to what should be in your life, whether it's your job or a hobby. For me, it's been proven so true. I was loving this book that was so much fun and having fun inside books; and now, all these years later—it took a long time and a long journey / and very twisty—but here I am, all these years later, basically having fun inside books, and hoping that I can get children to  have fun inside books. Dennis: Inviting them to the party! Sally: Yes! Exactly, and realizing laughter—that's such a gift that God's given us. 6:00 Bob: You had an experience where you were telling a Bible story to a group of children, and it changed your thinking about how to tell stories to them. Sally: Yes; yes. I like to tell this story on myself, because I don't ever want anyone to think I think of myself as an expert. I'm learning every time I read to children. This particular time, I was invited to a Sunday school; and I was reading from The Jesus Storybook Bible—it was probably about like six years ago. I'm very good at getting children out of control—I think that's part of my job, getting them laughing—but I'm not so good at getting them under control.  The Sunday school teacher had wandered away; so I read this whole story, Daniel and the Scary Sleepover. The story was all about Daniel and how he was obedient, even though he might be punished and killed; and that, one day, God was going to send another hero, who would again be willing to do whatever God told Him, no matter what it cost Him—that's how the story ends. While I'm reading this story, there's this young girl—she's probably about six—she's kneeling up. As I'm telling this story, she's so engaged—she's almost trying to get into my lap—she's so engaged. At the end of the story, I panicked; because there was no teacher, I thought, “I have to say something.”   7:00 So, I went: “So, children,”—and I was horrified to hear this come out of my mouth—I said: “So children, what can we learn about how God wants us to behave?” As I said those words, the little girl—she physically slumped / her head bowed, and she slumped. I have never forgotten it, because I think that is a picture of what happens to a child when we make a story into a sermon.  Because I said that question at the end of the story, I basically made that story all about her instead of pointing to Jesus. The minute we do that, we leave the child in despair; because we don't need to be told to do it better. If we could do it better, Jesus never needed to have come. The story of Daniel is there—not to tell us what we should be doing—it's to tell us: “Look, this is what God is going to do. God is going to bring someone, who is not going to be saved at the last minute, who is going to actually die to rescue us; and that's the most incredible story.”  I've learned from that.  8:00 I have never forgotten it; because whenever we read a story; and then we say: “Well, what that story's about…”—whatever we put on the other side of “about” is basically what we lead the child with—that becomes the only thing the story is about. Bob: To say: “The moral of the story is…” Sally: Is the worst thing you could ever say. I'm passionate about that!—it's terrible. Bob: But don't you want kids to get it? Sally: You do; but what that does is—basically, you've decided what that story is about/  you've decided what God might want to say to that child—but what if God wants to say something completely different? It puts too much power in our hands. It would be much better to leave the story, because I believe the story is a seed—it grows when it's left alone. It may take years for us to see the fruit of it. We may not see it growing; but that's what a seed does—it grows in the dark. It's almost, I think, none of our business. If we read a good story to a child, it's between the child and the Holy Spirit what happens with that seed.  9:00 It's not that we shouldn't ask questions; it's just that I think we need to be careful not to reduce the story down into a moral lesson, because there's a place for moral lessons. But stories are so much more powerful, because they can transform your heart. A lesson doesn't usually—like a moral lesson often leaves you feeling like the little girl—she felt in despair; because it was suddenly like: “God isn't pleased with you, because you're not as brave as Daniel,”—that's what I used to think, as a child. People often say: “Well, if you can't ask, ‘What is the moral of the lesson?' what can you ask?”—because, sometimes, you need a question. I always say, “What about if you, with the child”—like it's you are on the same level with the child, as if you're kneeling together before our Heavenly Father; because we are all children before Him—“What if you read the story together?”—coming together, not as you as the teacher, but as you and the child as children of God.  You listen to the story and then you go: “Wow!” and you wonder, aloud, and you say something like—say, with the story of the feeding of the 5,000—instead of saying, “Well, children, what can we learn about sharing our lunch?”—  10:00 —you say, “The boy gave Jesus everything he had. I wonder what would happen if we gave Jesus everything we have?” and you leave it open. Suddenly, that becomes completely open; and the child's imagination can soar with that. That's a question I think that's a good thing to ask; but it's not trying to teach a lesson. Bob: Part of what you do in that question is—you put the focus on what God can do— Sally: Yes! Bob: —rather than what we're supposed to do. Sally: Amen, because then there's hope. We need to give children hope; don't we? They obviously need guidance, and there's a place for teaching and rules. I just think the story time is sacrosanct. We should come together, before our Heavenly Father, and wonder together. Bob: So when you approach writing a story like, Baby Wren and the Great Gift, which is not overtly a Christian story / no Bible verses in it—do you approach that differently than when you are writing something for The Jesus Storybook Bible? 11:00 Sally: The helpful thing about The Jesus Storybook Bible is the plot‘s already worked out. [Laughter] Bob: The story's already there; yes. Sally: So with Baby Wren, I try and “be someone on whom nothing is lost.” I think Henry James said that—I may have got that wrong—“be someone on whom nothing is lost.” I'm always open; and that book—what I have learned with books is—an idea will come from anywhere; but when it comes and it hits me in a poignant way, or it makes me laugh, or does something with my heart, I've learned to listen; because I realize, “Okay; I think that's God working to show me there's something here that I need to follow.”   I don't always know what the story is—but with Baby Wren and the Great Gift, the thing that struck me was—I was in Texas at Laity Lodge. There was this little wren called a canyon wren. Literally, one time, I was just hearing this huge song; and I said, “What on earth is that?” And they said: “Oh, that's the canyon wren. You never see it—it's too tiny to notice—and yet, look at its great song.”  12:00 That idea started playing in my head. I started thinking: “That's like a child. A child is only small, and they have so many insecurities; and where do they belong in the big world?”—that's where the book came from. That wasn't really me setting out with a message—it was me responding to a clue I was given and then following clues.  That's how I think the books come. I trust the Lord with that; because, if the joy and redemption are at the center of my life, they are going to be in my books—I won't be able to help it. In a way, that frees me to trust the Lord—that my passion is to bless children with the truth and with hope. That can come in the form of pre-evangelistic—it can be like Emily Dickinson said, “Tell all of the truth, but tell it slant.”  The thing about the story is—you're not coming at it, head on, like you are with The Jesus Storybook Bible—but even there, it's a story. Every time you tell a story, what happens is—it captures your heart. It doesn't come at you with rules and lessons; it comes around the side and it captures your heart. I just basically trust that, “If something moves me, that's something I need to listen to.” 13:00 Dennis: I think you're exhorting us, as adults, as we tell stories to kids, “Let's leave room for imagination.”  Sally: Yes; that's really well-put. Dennis: Comment, if you would, on your children's book called Found. Bob: You said that's an edible book; right? Sally: Yes! It's The Jesus Storybook Bible—the edible version. [Laughter] Basically, it's a padded board book. The board book is one of those books that toddlers cannot rip.  Barbara: They can chew on. Sally: They can chew on and not destroy—  Dennis: Oh! Okay. Sally: —because, when you are a baby, you don't read them; you eat them. Dennis: You are going all the way through the 23rd Psalm and just unpacking it, verse by verse.  Sally: Yes; it's the same version as in The Jesus Storybook Bible. We re-illustrated it—we have given it like 12 spreads, I think. If you put, individually, one line on a page and then you illustrate it, you give space to the whole psalm. Jago has done the most incredible job of—what we talk about in picture books, you have to have heart—you have to have it in the text, and you have to have it in the art.  14:00 That's an indefinable thing; but you know when you haven't got it, and you know when you get it. Dennis: Well, you've got it; because here's the—I guess, almost halfway through the book—“…even when I walk through the dark, scary, lonely places…”—there's a lonely lamb in a valley with a rainstorm. Barbara: That's my favorite spread. Dennis: It is mine too. Barbara: Because that little lamb—it's just so representative of, not just children, but all of us.  Sally: Yes. Barbara: He looks so alone, and I think that just captures what we all feel that the 23rd Psalm speaks to. Sally: You know what's interesting? It's children's favorite spread, as well. Barbara: Oh, is it? Sally: They will always go there no matter how tiny they are. I think that's fascinating; because, again, we try and—it's appropriate to protect children—but we have to be sure that we are equipping them as well. Little ones know that not everything is right out there. Whether or not we're telling them, they know—so the more that you give them a safe place—  15:00 —that's why I think they love that spread, because they're looking at something scary, which they know exists; but they are doing it with you, they're doing it with the lamb, and together you're going to get through this story. It's very important that we let them look at the dark, not just the light, obviously, in an age-appropriate way; but I think that's why it's powerful to them. Dennis: Yes; and then the next page, of course, it says, “I won't be afraid, because my Shepherd knows where I am.” Sally: And he's panned out; hasn't he?  He's panned out, and you see that he wasn't alone—the shepherd was running. The look on the shepherd's face—again, heart—it's just so—it's poignant to me. When I saw the illustrations, I was just blown away. Dennis: Sally, I want to ask you for a book that you've never written / a book that has never been illustrated, but it's a story that is a book in your mind that you love to tell children. Bob: Are you looking for a scoop here? You trying to get— Sally: Yes; I mean, gosh! [Laughter] Yes; I know he's trying! He's got a notebook—I can see it!—and a recorder. [Laughter] Dennis: I've already got the publisher lined up, fellas! [Laughter]  16:00 No; I just have to believe that you've got a few tucked away that you've never put on parchment—it's just a favorite of yours. I'd be interested if you wouldn't mind telling it to our audience here. Sally: Oh my; I've gone completely blank.  Dennis: Have you?! Sally: Yes; performance anxiety, you see. [Laughter] I need to skip to the loo. Maybe I'll think about it. Dennis: Okay! We can come back at the end of the broadcast, and you can tell a story. Sally: Yes; okay; okay. Bob: Barbara, as you look at books and their illustrations, you recognize the power that comes. I mean, Sally's prose is beautiful prose; but let's be honest—the book, Found, is what?—maybe 40 words?—maybe 50 words?—and well-chosen words. The illustrations are what give the words a context and a texture that bring it alive. Barbara: I always looked for books for my kids that had beautiful illustrations. To me, that was as important as the story—  Sally: Oh, dear; yes. Barbara: —because I loved the illustrations as much as my kids did.  17:00 It allowed the story to come alive at a level that the words couldn't do on their own—  Sally: No. Barbara: —because the illustrations support it / they give it life. They make it three-dimensional. As you said, with that center spread of the rainstorm, it takes you to that place that the words alone can't do.  Sally: Yes; that's true. Barbara: I just think illustrations are powerful in books. Sally: Yes! I love hearing that. I feel the same way. I also think design—you know, like the cover—so much goes into a picture book. What you said is so true; because a picture book is a story told in two languages, word and image. The best picture books are when, as a publisher of mine said: “One plus one equals more than two. Neither of them would work without each other.” Also, what you want is that it should look as if the person, who illustrated it, wrote it; and the person who wrote it, illustrated it—they should have the same voice. Barbara: They both have a message too. The words alone don't say what the pictures alone say. They work together so that the whole thing is a much greater package, as you were explaining.  18:00 And it's a gift. When you get a book like that, you feel like it's a treasure. Your anticipation is greater when you get a— Sally: It's true, because it's beautiful. Barbara: —beautiful book than [when] you just get a book.  Sally: Another thing I'm passionate about is—beauty honors God—  Barbara: Absolutely! Sally: —when we do something beautiful. I also think it reaches everyone—beauty calls to everyone. Our job is to be as excellent as we can be; because beauty honors Him, and it also—it just takes away the obstacles. Like I was describing with the design: “If it's really well-designed, there's no obstacle to the story.” I think my job is always to get out of the way and let the story through. If you are a good designer, get out of the way and let the story through; and if you're an illustrator...  Bob: At what age do kids move beyond you? Sally: Never! I collect picture books, and I never grow out of them. They're an art form that—well, C.S. Lewis said it; didn't he?—when he dedicated—   Barbara: He did! I was just thinking about his— Sally: Yes! You probably remember it better, but I can't remember exactly the words. 19:00 Barbara: I don't remember exactly how he said it either.  Sally: He dedicated it to his—to Lucy—he said, “You're too old for fairy tales, but you'll grow up and become young enough,”—or something like that. Barbara: He also said something about “A book that's good for children is good for adults,”—if it's good enough for them, then it should speak to all ages. Sally: Like “There is no book that's only for children,”—is what he said—“only good for children; because, if it's not good enough for children, it's not”—something—we're really massacring this quote; aren't we?! [Laughter] Barbara: I know! That is the idea—I've always loved that quote. Bob: Have you ever had a desire to write young adult fiction?—or to write a novel?  Sally: Well, sometimes, I think about that; but then I think I'm already reaching adults in the best way, by reaching children. Bob: Yes. Sally: I just love the idea that they—you know, like Found, or Baby Wren, or Song of the Stars—they're books designed to read together; and the sound of the language—C.S. Lewis, again, said, “You should write for the ear as well as the eye.” Barbara: Right. Bob: And most of the books on my bookshelf have been read once, if they've been read at all. 20:00 Sally: Isn't that the truth? There, again—you see? Bob: But children's books?  Sally: Children's books— Barbara: —over and over. Bob: —books get read. I mean, we could almost recite Goodnight, Moon; can't we? Sally: Oh; I mean, it's a genius book; and it's so deceptively simple; isn't it? Bob: Yes; yes. Dennis: It is! So, I've stalled here for you. Sally: Oh, dear; you did, and I still haven't got that story. Well, I think the thing is—my stories—I may have them; but they are sort of, again, a bit like seeds. I never quite know what they are—I have to keep following them. I have lots in process but not—I don't know—if I've got one ready to tell, I usually do it— Barbara: So you have lots of ideas, but they haven't been developed yet.  Sally: Yes; like picture books—I can have an idea that can sort of—I was going to say “vegetate”—that's not the right word; is it? Barbara: —germinate. [Laughter] Sally: —germinate / vegetate doesn't sound nice—germinate—thank you!—for several years. I find that's the best way; because, again, following clues—I follow clues.  Sometimes—I'm working on a middle-grade novel; but I—you know, sometimes, you don't actually want to talk about the book until it's done; because, if you talk about it, you've kind of told the story and you take away the energy you need to finish it.  21:00 So, that's a good excuse; isn't it? [Laughter] Dennis: It really is!  Sally: You can't say anything now. Barbara: It works; it works! Dennis: I just hope you‘ll come back,  Sally: I'd love to come back; it's always so fun! Dennis: So, you just need to know—Bob is a “foodie.” So, next time you come back, bring bread crumbs and— Sally and Barbara: —figgy pudding. Dennis: —figgy pudding! Sally: Well, I might send you a figgy pudding. Bob: I'm waiting for it; yes. Sally: No; he looks like it's a threat! [Laughter] I might send it to you, and you might have to eat it on air! Bob: I will—I will eat your figgy pudding. Barbara: If you send it, we will have to taste it for sure, after all of that! Sally: Okay. Bob: Then, I'll let you know whether to send me anymore after that. [Laughter] Dennis: That's right! I will—if I eat it, and I like it—I will repent of all my—not all—but some of my comments about English food. [Laughter] Sally: I think you're just really jealous of England really; aren't you? Dennis: Oh, I do love England!  Barbara: We really do love England. Dennis: I do! We had a delightful time. Sally: You're right. English food—you don't really see English food restaurants. Although, you do in New York—fish ‘n chips / Toad in the Hole! Now, I'm really confusing you! [Laughter]  Dennis: No; no. I know—[Laughter] 22:00 Bob: By the way, we have none of that in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center; but we do have some of Sally's books. Dennis: Toad in the hole? We've got some of that; don't we? Bob: It's not in the FamilyLife Today Resource Center. [Laughter] You can go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com to find out more about the books that Sally has written for children: the Christmas story—Song of the Stars; the 23rd Psalm book called Found; and of course, The Jesus Storybook Bible. We've got all of those available, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order at 1-800- FL-TODAY.  We've also got the resources Barbara Rainey has worked on for the holiday season for families, including her new set of Christmas tree ornaments that reflect the Eternal Names of Jesus. Find out more about those when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Or call if you have any questions: 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” 23:00 Now, as Dennis mentioned earlier, this is a significant time of year for this ministry. We're hoping to hear from listeners to take advantage of a matching-gift opportunity that has been made available to us. Our friend, Michelle Hill, who is the host of FamilyLife This Week, is keeping us up to date this month on all that's going on with the matching gift. Hi, Michelle! 23:21 Michelle:  Hi Bob J yeah, what's happened is pretty simple…and very generous. Some friends of FamilyLife offered to match every donation in December, so yesterday…when Leona from Pennsylvania called in? Our friends matched Leona's gift, dollar for dollar! Simple! Your gifts are being matched all December, up to a total of two million dollars, and Bob? As of today, our listeners have given just over three hundred six thousand dollars…which is REALLY encouraging! Bob: It is indeed! You can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. 24:00 And we hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together in your local church this weekend, and I hope you can join us back on Monday. John Stonestreet will be here to talk about how we can raise children in a culture that does not always support what we believe. Hope you can be with us as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry.Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 1) - Juli Slattery25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 2) - Juli Slattery25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 3) - Juli SlatteryFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. What Does God Approve of? Guest:                         Juli Slattery               From the series:       25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask (Day 1 of 3)  Bob: More marriages than ever are struggling with issues related to marital intimacy and sexuality. Dr. Juli Slattery says, “There is a good reason why.”   Juli: You can now assume that the average couple is dealing with issues of pornography / there is a good chance there has been sexual trauma in the past—that people are bringing in a lot of baggage, and shame, and guilt about the things that have happened before marriage. We're dealing with the assumption, now, that there are an awful lot of men and women who are single, into their 30s and 40s, before their first marriage. The game has really changed. God's truth hasn't changed, but how we address it and the assumptions we make are very different.  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, October 24th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We're going to dive right into today and talk about issues that a lot of you are facing in your marriage. Stay with us.  And welcome to FamilyLife Today.  1:00 Thanks for joining us. We just ought to say, here at the beginning—we're about to have a candid conversation on a sensitive subject. It's one that you sometimes wonder, “Should we even be talking about this?”  But honestly, every time we talk to couples about issues in their marriage, this subject comes up.  Dennis: It does. We've got a person who knows how to handle delicate subjects like this very, very well. Dr. Juli Slattery joins us on FamilyLife Today. Juli—welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Juli: Thanks for having me.  Dennis: You know, I'm really impressed, Bob, that Juli chose to be on FamilyLife Today. Most of our guests we trick, but Juli actually chose to be on FamilyLife Today and talk about this subject we're going to talk about. [Laughter] Bob: She knew what she was getting herself into; right?   Dennis: In case our listeners don't know who that name is—Juli is married to Mike and has been since 1994. She has three sons—lives in Colorado. She is a clinical psychologist— 2:00 —author of seven books, speaker, and host of Java with Juli, which takes place in a coffee shop.  Juli: It does; yes. See, I love coffee so much I had to find a way to work it into my normal routine.  Dennis: Yes. Have you done some Java with Juli on this book we're about to talk about?   Juli: Well, you know, I think that this book came out of a lot of those conversations. So, it's kind of sprinkled around, I'd say.  Dennis: Well, our audience is wondering what you've written about. Here's the name of the book—you're going to get the point—25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex, and Intimacy. Why this book?  Why now?   Juli: Well, I run a ministry called Authentic Intimacy. A lot of what I do every day is teach, and write, and answer people's questions on sexuality. Wherever I go—for example, speaking—we will have at least a half an hour, if not an hour, of live Q&A where women can text in their questions anonymously.  3:00 From that and, also, meeting with women and the emails we get—there are some consistent questions that women will ask. We just thought: “Hey, why not compile this into one resource?  These are the questions that either we get asked all the time or, sometimes, they're the questions underneath the question.  Dennis: Is there a number one question women are asking today that seems to be a unique question because of the day we live in?   Juli: The questions that are most common, probably, would be the most common ten years ago, I'm going to think—about like: “What does God approve of in the marriage bed?” for example—or as a single woman—“Does God say this act is wrong?”  That's the number one question.  I think, in terms of the changing culture, what I've seen—and probably what you've seen in your ministry to marriage and family—is that things that were an assumption 15 or 20 years ago are no longer an assumption—like: “Where does the Bible actually say it's wrong to have sex out of marriage?  I've never heard that before,”—  4:00 —whereas, again, 15 or 20 years ago, those were assumptions that we could begin with.  Bob: When we host our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways for couples, we always have time where we are with the engaged couples.  Twenty years ago, when you got the engaged couples together in the room, you had an assumption, as a speaker, that some percentage of your audience was probably sexually active during their engagement period. Today, when you get together with that group, the assumption is virtually everybody—in fact, I think the statistic I saw most recently was that five percent of women who get married today are virgins when they get married.  Juli: Yes.  Bob: We're in a very different place than we were two decades ago, as it relates to a lot of the subjects that you are writing about.  Juli: And it's not just being sexually active; but you can now assume that the average couple is dealing with issues of pornography; that there is a good chance there has been sexual trauma in the past—that people are bringing in a lot of baggage, and shame, and guilt about the things that have happened before marriage.  5:00 And we're dealing with the assumption, now, that there are an awful lot of men and women, who are single into their 30s and 40s, before their first marriage. The game has really changed. God's truth hasn't changed, but how we address it and the assumptions we make are very different.  Dennis: There is one other subject you left out of that list, and that's the multiple choice sexuality that we have today. People used to have to decide whether they were going to be immoral or not. Now, they have to choose whether they are male/female, homosexual male/homosexual female, transgender. There is fluidity about our culture today that really adds a lot of confusion as well.  Juli: Yes; that's a great point. And I think, even within the last five years, we've seen this permission being given to children, to parents, and to teens. I don't think we've seen the impact of that yet. I think, probably, in another five or ten years, we're going to start seeing these young children that were told, at a young age, that: “You can choose to be male or female,” “You can choose your sexual orientation,”— 6:00 —when they start getting into their 20s and 30s, it's going to be, again, a big game changer.  Bob: Juli, I'm imagining that when you were a junior in high school and starting to think: “Gee, I wonder what God's plan for my life is. I wonder what I'll be doing and what—how He'll direct my life,”—I'm guessing, as a junior, you weren't thinking, “I bet I'll be writing and speaking a lot about sexuality and intimacy.”    Juli: No; I wasn't thinking that ten years ago. [Laughter]   Bob: So, where did this begin to blossom in your life and why this subject for you?   Juli: It began with the Lord taking me, personally, very deep in my relationship with Him, just out of the blue. There was a season of about a year where God was just waking me up in the middle of the night, just drawing me to Himself in a way that I had never experienced before.  At about the same time, I had met Linda Dillow. She began to just spiritually mentor me.  7:00 As I was going through that time of seeking the Lord, month after month after month, I actually started to get a pain in my chest / in my heart that would get more intense as I would pray. It was there for months. Linda started to say: “The Lord is giving you a new call. You need to ask Him what He's calling you to.”   So, I'd just get on my knees and say: “God, what is this pain?  What is this call?”  One day, on my knees, I was just praying. The words of Isaiah 61, verses 1-3, just flooded through my mind—that “God has anointed me to preach good news to the poor, to bind up the broken hearted, to set the captives free.” I didn't even know where that verse was found. I Googled it on my phone—found it in Isaiah—and wrote in my Bible on that day: “This is Your call on my life,” and wrote the date and didn't know where that would lead.  That's kind of a long story to say that this was not my choice. I was probably the least likely to be a spokesperson on sexuality— 8:00 —because I don't like conflict / I don't like difficult conversations—but it was so clear that this was what God was calling me to—just the pain, particularly, that women experience all around the world on this issue of sexuality and that God hears that pain, that He hears the cries, and that His truth is able to minister. That's how all this began; and since then, it's just been really a daily walk of faith.  Dennis: You quoted what Isaiah talked about. It's actually kind of a picture of going to a prison—a place of torture / a place of pain. What percent of women today, do you think, are coming out of that prison when it comes to their own sexuality?  Is it over 50 percent; do you think?   Juli: For sure.  Dennis: And where are there major issues that they are struggling with right now that you are picking up?   Juli: Yes; I would say that percentage is probably around 80 percent in my experience. I think the reason that we don't see that big percentage is because the struggles are different.  9:00 We tend to categorize and compartmentalize. For example, if we've got about 30 percent of women who've experienced childhood sexual abuse—probably, the percentage is even higher; but that's what's being reported—then, you also have women, who are drawn into pornography, that struggle with lust issues. They don't know where to go with those.  Then, you have women who struggle with sexual identity. As the research is coming out in homosexuality, you find that about seven percent of women struggle, at some point, with sexual identity issues. That's more than double the percentage of men that struggle. So, women are being told that their sexuality is more fluid.  Then, you add to that, Dennis and Bob, just the average Christian wife who doesn't know how to enjoy sexuality—whether it is physically painful; or she's filled with shame and guilt about this issue / she can't forgive herself for things in the past. Maybe, her husband is involved in pornography or has been unfaithful.  10:00 You add all of those together—and even things I'm not mentioning—and you're talking about a vast majority of women in churches, I'd even say, who have these hidden issues and nowhere to go to ask the questions because they're not invited to ask.  Dennis: And one of the things I want to talk about before we're done is—I want to talk about equipping parents to know how to raise their sons and daughters in this culture and how to cope with damage that's done to their children—maybe, they're victimized / maybe, it's their own choice—but I'd like you to help parents know how to coach their kids / counsel their kids—allow them to come out of the prison / out of the hidden shame—and deal with this without having to go through a long valley in their adult experience.  Juli: You cannot give what you do not have.  Dennis: Yes.  Juli: And that's the first step—is that a lot of parents don't know where their own issues are regarding sexuality.  11:00 They don't have a practical understanding of how God views sexual brokenness / healthy sexuality. So, they feel very ill-equipped to pass on those conversations and beliefs to their kids.  That's where you've got to start—is: “Who are you—as a mom or a dad, as a husband or a wife, as a male or female—in terms of your own sexuality working through your own brokenness?”  Then, once God has really brought truth into your life, you can begin passing that on to your children.  Bob: You know, we talked about the fact that the vast majority of people getting married today have already been sexually-experienced / they've already been together as a couple. They're bringing into marriage—whether they know it or not / whether they believe it or not—they're bringing in baggage / they're bringing in scars. They have disobeyed what God has said is best. There is shame there, whether they realize it or not.  I remember, Juli—years ago, speaking to a group of parents and asking this question— 12:00 —I said, “How many of you would love for your children, as they are growing up, you would love for them to have exactly the same experience in dating and relationships before marriage that you had when you were growing up?”   Juli: What a great question.  Bob: In a room of a hundred people, you'd see two or three hands go up. Now, that's got a lot of parents out their going, “I don't want my kids to follow the path that I went on.”  Yet, many of these couples don't know what to do with the sexual shame, the sexual brokenness, the sexual sin that's a part of their past that is still influencing their attempt to have healthy marital sexuality.  Juli: And it's not only the shame that you bring into marriage—that's a big part of it—but it's also how you view sexuality. When you have sexual intercourse with someone before marriage, essentially, you are trading a commodity.  13:00 You're saying, “I'll please you if you'll please me.”  You're always on trial. What the research is showing—particularly, couples that live together before they are married—they bring that attitude about sexuality and relationship into their marriage.  When you save sexuality for marriage, you're saying: “This is an expression and a celebration of the promise we've made to each other. No matter what happens, I'm not going to reject you. If you don't please me, I'm not going to reject you. We're going to work through issues.”   And so, it's not just the shame and guilt. It's that residual belief about why we are sexual and why we share our sexuality: “Am I on trial in front of my husband or wife?  Are they going to reject me?” or “Is this a covenant and the celebration of a covenant?”  People don't think that way / they don't talk about that, but that underlies a marriage. Until you get to some of those issues, it's very difficult to pass on healthy beliefs to your kids.  14:00 Dennis: So, to that person who feels on trial—who feels like he or she is under performance with their spouse—what do you advise him or her to do?   Juli: I think it begins by acknowledging that we've brought, not only the obvious sexual baggage into our marriage, but we really allowed the enemy to have a foothold here. We've allowed him to tell us lies—like: “I can't trust in your love. You may reject me,” or lies that: “I have to perform for you to stay with me,”—“Those are underlying our marriage. Let's, as a couple, just get on our knees and ask God to break all of that that happened before we got married and to renew what we are doing here.”   I've met with couples who actually will say: “From this day forward, our sexual intimacy is going to be a whole different deal, because we understand it now. We're going to say: ‘God, forgive us and release us from all of our past. We want to move forward with a new beginning.'”  I think that's a really healthy place to start.  15:00 Dennis: I think there is something powerful, intensely spiritual, and healing to a husband and a wife who can bow their wills before Almighty God together, and pray together, and pray for one another, and begin to yield this area of their lives for God to sanctify it, make it right, make it holy—however, you want to describe it as the Bible would—and to allow that sexual dimension of the marriage relationship to be used for His purposes in their relationship; because it is good / it's not bad—the world is the one who has caused us to think that it's bad and evil.  Juli: Yes; and even when you mentioned praying together about your sex life and marriage, a lot of people are like: “Really?  You can pray about that?  God really wants to hear about it?”  Yes!  He wants to bless it, and He wants to sanctify it. If you, as a couple, would commit—even for a month or two—to pray about sexual intimacy in your marriage, to pray together, to pray before or after sexual intimacy— 16:00 —you're going to see God begin to release things that you didn't even know were there from your past and bring healing that you didn't even know you needed.  Bob: A number of years ago, we had a conversation with a young wife. Her name was Heather Jamison—I don't know if that name rings a bell with you—but on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com, we posted the interviews that we did with Heather. She and her boyfriend became sexually active while she was a senior in high school / he was a freshman in college. She became pregnant quickly. The families got together and decided, “Well, if you're pregnant, you need to get married.”  They got married.  Years into their marriage, significant struggles—not just in the sexual area—but in all areas. Heather came to a point where she recognized: “We have never fully addressed the reality of our sexual sin. We felt bad about it. We were sorry about it.”   17:00 But she said, “There's a difference between that and repenting before the Lord with a brokenness and an understanding of how this was an offense against Him—not just a bad mistake we made—but we offended God.”  She goes on to describe how this act of being broken before the Lord about the reality of sexual sin was the first step to liberation for them.  I'm sure you've talked to person after person who has had that same kind of breakthrough.  Juli: Absolutely. And this can apply, also, to things like a spouse that's been unfaithful or a spouse who has been into pornography—to have that moment, as a couple, where you truly realize the devastation that's been done—not just sweeping it under the rug or saying, “Hey, we got counseling,”—but before the Lord, true repentance and believing that He is able to redeem and heal is the most profound thing that you can do.  Again, it's something I think we skip right over. We look for the advice of:  18:00 “How do we fix it?” Scripture will say, “If you will confess your sin before God, He is going to be faithful to cleanse you.”   Bob: And let me just say—I think a person can tell whether they have really addressed their sexual sin from the past if they'll just do this simple test. If they'll say, “Here's what I did in the past, and I know it was a sin against God,”—and if they can just stop there without saying, “But…”—see, it's when we get to “I know it was a sin against God, but…—and then, we have all the excuses—“but I was this,” or “I did that,” or—now, all of a sudden, it's like: “No; you need to be able to stop with: ‘I know it was a sin against God. I know it was an offense against His holiness.'”   You've got to get to the place where you really face up to the fact that this is not an excusable act, but this is really a conscious choice of sin that reaps consequences in your life. Until you get there, I don't think you can get to the liberation.  19:00 Dennis: Yes; we're not talking about a formula here to solve this problem, but we have talked about a couple of things that really do work. First of all, repentance—which we've been talking about here—where you do admit before Almighty God: “I'm sorry. I turn from that sin. We confess it together, as a couple; and we turn away from it.”   The other is for a couple to pray together—and I think importantly, out loud—to be intimate with God together, as a couple, perhaps, before sharing in intimacy as a couple or, as you mentioned, Juli, afterward—just to acknowledge that this was made by God in the first place / this is not manmade. This is made by Almighty God, and you want to invite Almighty God into the most intimate area of your relationship.  But there is a third thing that I just want to highlight here that's so important—you've got to begin to erase the past but replace it with the right thoughts about sex today and the future.  20:00 I've got to just say, “One of the best ways you can do that is by coming to a Weekend to Remember marriage getaway.”  Come and hear God's perspective on sex in a wholesome, practical, edifying way. You hear it at the conference, and you hear it together. It gives you a vocabulary to talk about it, and you realize: “This is good. This is okay; and God does delight in us coming together, as a couple.”   A lot of couples go through a period of their lives and they stay in the valley too long, when they don't have to stay there—they can find solutions today. There are a lot of great tools. We've just talked about three of them here—repentance, prayer, and then, getting God's perspective on sex at a Weekend to Remember. The key is: “Step out of the hidden places and come and allow God to shine His light on it.”   Bob: This is one of the key issues that gets addressed at the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. I've talked to so many couples there, who have said, “Thank you for being appropriate and yet candid in addressing this.”  21:00 I mean, where can you go to get a good, honest, biblical look at what God created—human sexuality?   I'd encourage our listeners—if you have not yet signed up for one of our Weekend to Remember getaways this fall, we still have a couple dozen events happening between now and the end of the year. You can go to our website at FamilyLifeToday.com and look for information about the Weekend to Remember.  Also, look for information about the book we've been talking about today from Dr. Juli Slattery that's called 25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex, and Intimacy. You can order the book from us online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-358-6329—1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”  And we'll be happy to get a copy of Dr. Slattery's book to you.  22:00 Given all of the turmoil that's going on in our country these days, with the elections and all of the dialogue that's taking place, we have put together a series of ten devotionals for your family just to remind all of us that the stability that we need in times like this comes from having our hearts anchored in Christ. He is our refuge and our strength. They're available on the FamilyLife app on your smartphone. If you haven't downloaded our app, just go to your app store and look for the FamilyLife app and download it. You can pull up the devotionals on your smartphone, or you can download them as a PDF document from our website at FamilyLifeToday.com.  Now, it is a big day today out in Yukon, Oklahoma, where Rocky and Cindy Terrel are celebrating their 24th wedding anniversary. The Terrels listen to FamilyLife Today on KAKO radio. They've been to the Weekend to Remember.  23:00 In fact, they brought a group of folks to a recent Weekend to Remember getaway; and they are also Legacy Partners. We just wanted to say: “Happy anniversary!” to the Terrels. “Thanks for your support of this ministry.”   FamilyLife exists so that more couples will celebrate more anniversaries. We are The Proud Sponsor of Anniversaries™. Actually, those of you who, like the Terrels, help support this ministry—that's what you are supporting. You are supporting the health of couples and families who depend on FamilyLife for practical biblical help and hope. When you make a donation today, you're investing in the marriages and the families of tens of thousands of couples who are being helped today through the ministry of FamilyLife.  If you can help with a donation today, we'd love to show our thanks by sending you a banner that Barbara Rainey has created that is a reminder that your home is an embassy of the kingdom of heaven. You can request your embassy banner when you make a donation online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY; or when you mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. 24:00 Now, tomorrow, we're going to talk more about love, and intimacy, and sex, and what's okay and what's not, and “How can yours be better?”  Dr. Juli Slattery will be back with us. Hope you can be back as well.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Life Aboard the Space Station Guest:                         Barry Wilmore                       From the series:       Life Aboard the Space Station (Day 1 of 1)  Bob: And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Friday edition. This could get a little tricky today. I'm not sure— Houston: Hello, this is Houston Comm Tech.  Dennis: This is Dennis Rainey with FamilyLife Today.  Bob: And Bob Lepine. Houston, can you hear us?   Houston: I hear you very low.  Bob: Low?  Not loud and clear?   Houston: Okay, you're coming in a little bit louder. Please standby.   Bob: Do I need to say, “Over”?   Houston: Okay, this is Comm Tech with a second voice-take on private three; now copy.  Bob: Hi, Comm Tech. How's the sound now?  Better?   Houston: Sounds better. Please stand by for a moment.  Bob: Okay.  Dennis: Alright.  Bob: I'm getting the sense that you don't make jokes with Houston Comm Tech or anybody else in Houston.  Dennis: Well, we're speaking to NASA.  Bob: They are a little focused on the mission.  Dennis: And folks, this is not a joke. That really is— Bob: Yes.  Dennis: —Houston NASA Control Center.  Bob: And here is the thing. Some of our listeners recognize that, back last fall, we had the opportunity to have a conversation with Captain Barry Wilmore and his wife Deanna just before Barry blasted off from a launch pad in Russia— 1:00 Dennis: A Soyuz rocket.  Bob: —going up to take command of the International Space Station, which is where he is today.  Dennis: And we also recorded, without Deanna knowing, a 20th Anniversary greeting.   Bob: Yes, Barry called us from the space station, back in early December—December 3rd was their anniversary— Dennis: Right.  Bob: —their 20th Anniversary. We had him, at the end of the program, sharing anniversary greetings.  Dennis: And he sent me an email, after that happened, and said: “Dennis, thank you for allowing me to do that. My daughter actually took a video.” I don't know how they do this, Bob—but they showed the video back to him on the space station. He is in the International Space Station, right now. He had a conversation—and he said, “My daughter showed my wife weeping— Bob: As she listened?   Dennis: —“as she listened to my 20th Anniversary greetings.”  Bob: And we're trying to work things out now. I think this is going to work, where Houston is setting us up so that we can talk to Captain Wilmore—  2:00 Dennis: —on the International Space Station.  Bob: Right.  Dennis: He— Barry: FamilyLife Today, hello. Hello, from the International Space Station. You guys out there?   Bob: Unbelievable!  Is it really you?   Barry: Hi, Bob! Hi, Dennis!   Bob: And how many bars do you have on your phone right now?  [Laughter]   Barry: Hopefully, enough!   Dennis: Amazing!   Bob: It is amazing that we're talking to you!   Barry: Well, thank you all for your program—it's fabulous.  Dennis: Would you mind looking out your window and telling us what you're seeing right now?   Barry: If I'm not mistaken—I didn't look at a map—but if I'm not mistaken, based on what I've seen, I believe that's Australia going by below me.  Bob: Wow!  [Laughter]   Dennis: Well, Butch, you're looking at the earth as few men or women ever get a chance to see it. What's a unique perspective you've had, just from outer space?  This is your second time to be in orbit. Any thoughts come to your mind as you glance at the globe of six billion people?   Barry: Very interesting question. You know, when I was here before—when I flew five years ago— 3:00 —it was a shuttle mission. Shuttle missions were fast and furious—it was 11 days. I think the most time I ever had to stick my nose in the window was about 20 minutes. That really wasn't long enough—it was wonderful—don't get me wrong. But now, to have the opportunity to really, no kidding, poke my nose in the window for very extended periods of time, it's truly amazing and truly breathtaking. It makes me in awe of my Lord and Savior and Creator—I mean—beyond words.  I can't explain—you can't explain the view. You can't—I mean, you can see pictures / you can see video—and they do a little bit to show what the beauty of the earth and the globe is from here; but to see it with your own eyes and realize that it's controlled by a sovereign God—like I said, it's beyond words.  Bob: Tell us what a day is like onboard the Space Station. First of all, what time zone are you in?   Barry: Yes, we work under GMT, Greenwich Mean Time, which is the same time as London.  Before I answer that question— 4:00 —let me say that / I want it to be clear—it is an amazing place, and it's an amazing view. It is an amazing thing to be here. I wake up every morning, and I float down the tube. I'm like: “Lord, I can't believe I'm here. This is just amazing!  It's thrilling.”   But I did not need to come here to know my Lord / to know my God. I mean—all that I could ever know / could ever want to know—I gleaned from the Words of Scripture. So, I didn't have to come here to find my Lord. He's in the Word—that's where He resides—and that's where He speaks to us from.  Okay, again, your question?   Bob: Just tell me about what a day is like for you onboard the space station.  Barry: Well, the days are pretty busy as you would imagine. I'm kind of a morning guy—I get up early. I get up around 4:30 or 5:00. We're not required, but it's very highly encouraged that we work out a great deal. We get about two and half hours a day scheduled to work out—we have resistance exercise.  So, that's how I start my day.  5:00 The resistance exercise machine is actually positioned right below the main window, which is called the cupola in the Space Station. I can lay there and do my work-out and see the beauty of the world go by. For instance, just this very morning, I'm working out—I look up, and there goes the nation of Israel by the window. It's the first time since I've been here that we've flown directly over the top. It was wonderful to look down and see the—from that vantage point—to see the places where our Lord walked when He was on earth—so, it was great. Anyway, that's the way my day starts.  Then, of course, the rest of it begins. It's a busy, busy place with a lot of various things going on—science, working payloads, plant seedling growth or crystal growth, working with the fish—we had fish up here. Some of them went back when the last Soyuz went back—and experiments with those. And the list goes on, and on, and on—combustion science. I mean—and that's just one day.  6:00 Then, there'll be things that will break; and we'll have to fix—that's ongoing. Of course, we have to do a spacewalk. We go out and do some things outside—that was amazing as well. So, the variety, and the opportunity, and the things that we do is varied—it's really neat.  Bob: I'm just curious if they still have Tang® onboard the Space Station—you know—because I grew up—it was all about astronauts and Tang. Do you even know what I'm talking about?   Barry: I know exactly what you're talking about—I sure do!  I don't know that it's made by people that make Tang, but it's like that—it's a powdered drink. That's all we have, basically. It's in little pouches, and we put water in it—it fires it up. It's quite tasty—I enjoy it in various flavors.  Bob: So, breakfast, or lunch, or dinner—what are your meals like onboard the Space Station?    Barry: The food is prepared a little differently—so, it does give it a different taste—and we're big on condiments here. [Laughter]  Condiments are huge!  So, you can make anything taste decent with the right amount of condiments. [Laughter]  But you know, breakfast— 7:00 —eggs, sausage links, and patties. I mean, we've got those that we rehydrate. We've got soups. We don't have salads; but we have soups, and vegetables, and meats—a varied variety of those. It's really good—I enjoy the food. Then, again, I'm not a good guy to ask if food is good because, when I was on deployment on the aircraft carrier, I even liked ship food. There are not many people that like ship food. [Laughter]   Dennis: Other than your family, what do you miss most while being in outer space?   Barry: There is only one thing that I miss. I'll tell you what it is and I'll tell you why I don't miss anything else. It is because it is such a unique place. To pine for something that I can't have—like a hamburger, or French fries, or something like that—there's no reason for that because everything else just overwhelms that.  The one thing that I don't have here—that I not only want but I need—is church. The Lord gave us His church. He gave it to us because He knew that we needed it.  8:00 We need it for our encouragement, for learning / obviously, for worship—admonishment at times. That's the one thing that I can't have here. I try to supplement that. I have messages from my home church that are sent to me weekly—and I listen to those—but it's not the same as being there and the fellowship with the body. That's the one thing that I do miss.  Bob: And you'd include FamilyLife Today in there as well; right?   Barry: Absolutely! [Laughter] Absolutely.  Dennis: Butch, I emailed you this morning. I just wonder, “How long does it take for my email to get to you?”   Barry: Now, that's varied as well. Sometimes, it gets here immediately. At other times, it takes days. It gets stuck in a hopper somewhere, and it won't get here for a couple of days. So, it's varied. Mostly, it's pretty good though.  Bob: What can you tell us about the rest of the crew—the guys you are working with?   Barry: Well, my Russian crewmates—that I launched in the Soyuz with—will be here the whole six months together. Alexander Samokutyaev is a military pilot from the Russian Air Force, and Elena Serova is a female engineer that was selected as a cosmonaut several years ago.  9:00 It's a great group of people to be around. We've trained a lot on earth together; and being with them here is fabulous as well.  Dennis: Do you speak Russian?   Barry: You know, I jokingly say, “I speak two languages fluently, and one I speak a little bit.”  I speak English, and I speak Tennessee. Then, I know a little bit of Russian. [Laughter]  Bob: But in that kind of environment—where you are living together / you're working together—I mean, you don't have anybody else to talk to other than your comrades onboard the Space Station and your comm link back to Houston. Relationships—maintaining healthy relationships—that's got to be a part of the mission; isn't it?   Barry: It is. One of the things that is good—again, that NASA does well is / like you mentioned—email. I've got friends and relationships that I've built over the years. Being able to maintain contact with those individuals via email is really—it's wonderful.  10:00 There is also—you know, I was able to send out and have 300 or so people on a friends and family website. They put some stuff on the website—like the spacewalk I did, and pictures, and whatnot. I've typed up a few things that go to that website to maintain contact with them. The people who are able to access that website can also send me messages. So, that's very helpful.  Dennis: One of the things that I did a little a research on is the massive number of people that form the NASA team—that, ultimately, slings you guys into outer space and cares for your well-being while you are out there. I'd just be fascinated to hear your thoughts about teamwork and lessons you've learned that are, literally, out of this world.  Barry: Oh, you are right. You can't—we can't have success in just about anything in life without teamwork. That's certainly the case here on the International Space Station. Yes, we're the bodies that get to climb into the rocket, and they launch, and come up here and do these wonderful things in a wonderful environment—  11:00 —it's true—but these experiments, these payloads, these procedures that I run daily—they don't exist without the team. The things that we're doing / the things that we're accomplishing up here do not happen without the team. I'm just, honestly, a small part of the team when it comes to a lot of the things that I do.  There's a mountain of people that put their passion and their life's work into much of the things that I work on here. You know, some of the experiments—there are individuals that—this is literally—literally—some of them, it's their life's work—things that they've been working on for decades—and here it is in my hands. I take that seriously, and it's a great amount of responsibility. You know, I appreciate them for what they do—the effort they've put into jobs to make some things easier for me. I'm sure they appreciate the things that we do as well. It doesn't exist without that cohesiveness, like you mentioned.  Dennis: You need to know we have a ton of young folks who listen, dreaming dreams/aspirations for their own lives.  12:00 Have you got something you'd like to say to them about what they need to be cultivating as they grow up and, hopefully, put some feet to their dreams?   Barry: One thing that comes to mind is—for me, anyway—the parable of the talents. The lord gave some more than others, but there was a certain expectation for whatever they were given. I think that, as we live our life, that we need to realize that wherever we are / whatever we are doing, we exist for His glory—that's why we're here. With whatever He's given us, we need to maximize and do the best we can with that for His glory. Do what you are passionate about / do what you love—and remember that you do everything you do for His glory.  Bob: Sometimes, things don't go according to plan. I know you all were expecting a supply delivery—that there was a little bit of a hitch. Can you tell us what happened and how you've had to adjust, as a result?   13:00 Barry: Yes, there was a mishap with a launch vehicle that was bringing cargo to us. For me, personally, there have been minor adjustments. The reason—and we've talked about it just a second ago—is the team. The team on the ground that works all of those issues have worked feverishly to make sure that we have everything that we need.  They planned ahead so we'd have a stockpile of things that we wouldn't be put in a bind on anything. There is only one or two items that were even just slightly short on because the team has been working and doing their jobs. And the team—as soon as it happened—they were at work, getting ready and planning and seeing how we go forward from there.  Bob: Were you anxious at all when you got the news that the supply vehicle had been damaged?   Barry: We were actually watching it, live, as it launched; and we saw what had happened. You know, our first thoughts, like anything—it's a clear range, and there is nobody there—but you still—there is always a chance that something will go astray. Your first thought is, “Could anybody have been injured?”   14:00 Of course, thankfully, that wasn't the case. When there is no individual harm that takes place—cargo and stuff—you can replace all of that. In that light, it's minor.  Dennis: Butch, I want you to give our listeners an idea of how big this thing is that you are screaming around the earth in.  Barry: Total size—if you think about two football fields—it's about as long as a football field and about as wide as a football field. The structure inside—they say that the size and the volume is like five buses that you would connect together. We have various modules, and I can tell you it is wide open space—it's not like the capsule I launched in. The Soyuz capsule is very small. The shuttle, with respect to the Space Station—the living space in that was fairly small—but this is huge / it's wide open.  And you're right—flying around—even inside here, weightlessly, is such a kick. It is really, really amazing. As a matter of fact, I just flipped around and am standing on the ceiling now— 15:00 —or what we call the ceiling because there really is no up and down. [Laughter]  Now, I'm standing on the bulkhead—on the wall. [Laughter]  Dennis: There are some kids, right now, going, “Oh, could I go up there and join him for that?!”  So, have you ever spilled anything up there?   Barry: It's great to watch water droplets and whatnot—so, yes, I spill it often, intentionally, because it's neat to watch. [Laughter]   Bob: I would like to be weightless just for a day.  Dennis: I could use some weightlessness.   Captain Wilmore, you have done a number of deployments in your service for the Navy. You have any coaching for dads who travel a lot?  Maybe, they don't go to outer space, but they're gone three or four days a week or a good number of days throughout the month—any coaching for them about caring for their wives and their children in the midst of that?   Barry: I think the thing that I would say from my standpoint—and what I've tried to do myself—is always think about biblical principles—you know, raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord and teach them God's Word.  16:00 That's what I do with my daughters, and that's what my wife and I do together.  I think a big part of that is preparing, especially when the children are younger—I've got a seven-year-old and a ten-year-old. We did a great deal of preparation for this separation time—discussing it and talking about it. My number one message to my daughters, and I even say it when I call them now, is: “Help Mommy.” We also—my wife homeschools—so, the follow-up slogan to that is: “Help your teacher. The principal may be out of town for a while, but he's coming back!”  [Laughter]   Dennis: So, that's a setup. Do you want to say anything to those girls of yours?—any words from Daddy to a daughter?  I know you get to talk to them too, but here is a chance to both brag on them and exhort them with a few hundred thousand, if not a million, listeners across the country.  17:00 Barry: Yes, both of my daughters are taking piano lessons—my youngest just started. I want you to know, girls—Darren and Logan—Daddy loves—loves—to hear you play the piano. I thank you when you practice, and I thank you when you play over the phone so I can even hear you from here—so, thank you for that. I want you to know that Daddy is very proud of both of you. And I, also, want you to know that the slogan is the same in this message too: “Help Mommy / help your teacher.”  [Laughter]   Dennis: Well said by a dad. Way to go!  Is there a question you'd like to be asked that's a favorite question for you to answer?   Barry: I think, you know, it's less about me / more about my Lord is where I would try to orient any question: “What drives you?”—maybe. What really, truly drives me is my desire to live according to what the Lord has laid out in His Word that we should do— 18:00 —and to glorify Him—and that's the main driver. So, that would be the question: “What drives you?” and that's the answer.  Bob: You have time in your schedule to include spiritual disciplines and to keep your spiritual self in shape; right?   Barry: Absolutely; yes, sir.  Bob: So, what are you doing in space—I know you have an opportunity to read your Bible, and you mentioned reviewing messages from church. Anything else that you are doing to just stay connected to Christ?   Barry: The Lord gave me something a few years ago that I have been continuing. It wasn't something I set out to do—it just kind of happened—and that is that I started sending out a devotion to just a couple of people daily / every single day. Over the years, the Lord grew that distribution list. I don't know how many people are on it now—I haven't counted—it's probably 70 or so different emails that I send out.  So, I do that every day—preparing the devotion to send out to those 70 individuals.  19:00 Also, I have it posted on my friends and family website. So that, right there, is something that the Lord has given me to keep me in His Word, and keep me studying, and keep me growing—and for that, I am grateful.  Dennis: I just want our listeners to think about where Butch is right now because he's looking at how this verse is really spelled out—Psalm 8:  O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth. You have set Your glory above the heavens!  When I look at the heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have set in place; what is man, that You are mindful of him and the son of man that You care for him?  Yet, you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor!  You have given him dominion over the works of Your hands and have put all things under his feet, all sheep and oxen,  20:00 and the beasts of the fields, and the birds of the heaven, and the fish of the sea, whatever passes along the paths of the sea. O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth!”   Barry: I can tell you from this vantage point, “majestic,” indeed—praise Him.  Bob: Butch, let me ask you one more question. How often does the sun come up during the day, and how often does it go down during the day for you?   Barry: Oh, there is another blessing!  The sunrises and sunsets here are just amazing. The Space Station—the whole station for about six to ten seconds turns completely orange as it goes through—as the light passes through the atmosphere. It kind of acts as a prism and separates the colors. I get 16 of those a day—fantastic!   Bob: So, is it almost bedtime for you now?   Barry: It actually—it is. I'm going to grab me a quick little bite to eat; and then, I'm going to hit the rack. [Laughter]   Dennis: Well, Butch, thanks for joining us on FamilyLife Today. Just want you to know it's no excuse that you can't listen to the broadcast up there. You should have figured that out in advance, but we'll forgive you for that; okay?   21:00 Barry: I appreciate that—[Laughter]—next time—next time!   Bob: Well, we're thrilled to be able to talk to you. Folks are praying for you, and we're going to keep praying for you. Excited to hear that the mission is going well.  Barry: Thank you very much, and I appreciate that as well. Praise Him. Thank you.  Bob: You know, it occurs to me—that when Butch lands—and I just checked with Keith—it's not a splashdown. It's not a landing like an airplane. It's an earthbound landing and a recovery. What did you call it—the Soyuz—what? Keith: They land from a Soyuz recovery capsule, and they land on the ground in the steppes of Russia.  Bob: Wow!  Keith knows these things. [Laughter] When that happens—after he and his wife have had a chance to kind of get acquainted with one another again—we need to get them to one of our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways for a little refresher.  Dennis: Yes.  Bob: When you've been gone for several months, it's good to have a little getaway weekend together and to hear, again, God's design for the marriage relationship.  22:00 Of course, you and I are going to be speaking at Weekend to Remember getaways next weekend. You're going to be in Hershey, Pennsylvania. I'm going to be in Colorado Springs.  Dennis: Yes.  Bob: We've got another four or five getaways happening next weekend—Valentine's weekend. Then, throughout the spring, there are Weekend to Remember marriage getaways happening in cities, all across the country.  If you and your spouse have never been, you don't have to go to outer space in order to qualify to attend a Weekend to Remember. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and sign up to attend an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway—get more information about when one of these getaways is coming to a city near where you live. Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY and mention that you'd like to attend a Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. We can answer any questions you have—let you know about dates and locations.  But we hope you'll make plans to invest in your marriage, whether you've been apart for a while or whether you see each other, day-in and day-out. This kind of getaway is great preventative maintenance for every marriage relationship.  23:00 Again, learn more at FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link at the top of the page that says, “GO DEEPER.” You'll find information about the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway there. Or call 1-800- “F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then, the word, “TODAY,”—ask about the Weekend to Remember.  One final note before we're done. Next week is National Marriage Week. We're going to be celebrating all week long with some special things going on social media. If you are not a friend of ours on our Facebook® page or if you don't follow us on Twitter®, let me encourage you to sign up so that you can be in the loop for all that we've got going on next week—some fun stuff, some helpful things, and some ideas for Valentine's Day.  You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and scroll all the way down to the very bottom of the page. You'll see the links there for Facebook and Twitter—you can sign up that way. Or, if you're in the know, just go to Facebook and Twitter—follow us @FamilyLifeToday—that's our Twitter handle.  24:00 Or you can click, “Like,” on our FamilyLife Today Facebook page and join us that way.  And with that, we've got to wrap things up. Thanks for being with us today. Hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend. I hope you can join us back on Monday when we're going to begin a weeklong look at the Song of Solomon and what that book has to say about marriage, and romance, and dating, and intimacy. We're going to hear messages from Pastor Matt Chandler next week. So, hope you can tune in for that.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with help today from Tom Thompson. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you Monday for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2015 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

God is Good (Part 1) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 2) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 3) - John & Donna BishopToday® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Making New Memories Guest:                        John and Donna BishopFrom the series:       God is So Good  Bob: The Bible teaches us a different way of thinking about trials, to count it all joy when we experience various trials.  That can be easy to read but very difficult to do.  Fifteen years ago, John Bishop lost his memory completely as a result of meningitis.  In the years that followed, there were many difficulties the Bishop family faced. John: That night I hurting so bad, and I'd listen to Psalm, and it said, "O taste and see that the Lord is good," Psalm 34a – "Blessed is the man trusteth in Him," and I said, "God, I going to believe you're good.  If I never get better I still going to believe you're good because that what Your Word says."  And I said, "Lord, this must be what faith means is believing You even when I don't feel like it."  So I'm going to believe God good whether I feel good or not.  I'm going to believe God good whether I get better or not just because the Bible say it. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, August 6th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  No matter what happens in your life, can you say God is so good, and all His ways are good? And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition.  This past weekend we had a wedding.  My daughter, Katy, became Mrs. Katy Walker, and … Dennis: How did you do? Bob: I was fine.  I was thinking back to how all marriages start, and they all start with hopes and dreams and the expectation of a storybook romance and they all live happily ever after – that kind of a fairy tale scenario. Dennis: At least that's what we think is going to happen.  But when we start out a marriage relationship, we have no idea what God has in store for our spouse or for us, as a couple. Bob: Yes, and as we've been hearing this week, John and Donna Bishop experienced a unique circumstance in their marriage 13 years ago when he lost all memory, and the story had to begin again with a whole new set of circumstances; that the love story had to start up again from scratch.  And yet it's been remarkable to hear how God has sustained this couple and to hear them testify to His goodness in the midst of this kind of adversity. Dennis: And, you know, I want to turn to the listener at this point before you hear the rest of the story, and I want to encourage you to order a bunch of CDs and pass them out to your buddies. Bob: I've already done that.  I took … Dennis: I have, too, Bob, I'm telling you, I'm going to talk to the folks down at the warehouse, and I'm going to see if we can't make a deal so that you can order these – this story in quantity and pass it out at church, pass it out in your neighborhood.  This is going to be a story that I think is going to touch, literally, millions of people's lives around the nation. Bob: And as we hear part 3 of this story, we're beginning to get a picture of the tremendous impact John's illness had on a marriage and on a family.  I mean, here were John and Donna raising three sons. Donna:  It was hard on the boys.  I think it's probably hardest maybe on my youngest son, because he was 10 years old, and I remember one day Luke came to me, and he said, "Mom, it's not fair, because my brothers had a daddy that got to play ball with them and go hunting with them and do fun things with him," and he caught me on an up day there, so I said, "I know, but you know the Lord's going to let him be special in a different way than he was with your brothers."  And so I thank the Lord – my youngest son, he's a good boy, and I thank the Lord, and I think him and his dad are close. Bob: That had to break your heart, though, for your son to say, "It's not fair.  I want a daddy like my brothers had." Donna: I know.  It was – I struggle with the things – I was going to tell you that when – I remember one night John was laying on the couch there, and he said, "It's okay, God, that you let me be sick."  Well, when he said that, you know, I said, "Oh, no, it's not okay."  Because I just kept saying, "You know, Lord, you know, I married that other man back there, and I just would like to go back to that," and I struggled.  That was one of my struggles – the Lord just saying, "Okay, Lord, it's okay."  And it was easier for him to say it than for me to say it.  I just had a hard time. And so the Lord and I have had many discussions over this. Bob: Do you feel like you've had two husbands? Donna:  Yes, sir, I sure do. Dennis: What's the part of John before the illness that you miss the most? Donna: Probably the part just take the leadership and go on and just the energy just to go on and keep going into things. Dennis: So he was the leader, he was leading you and the family and the church and taking you in a direction. Donna: Yes, sir.  And he was, you know, just never stopped, just keep going. Dennis: What's the part of the new John that you like the best? Donna: I like the best part is he's very loving, very kind.  I guess the Lord slowed him down, and he slows down, and he appreciates things and is just – you know, when we slow down, it's amazing how many things we've learned to miss, you know, that we have missed along the way until we slow down. Dennis: John, as you hear your wife describe John prior to 1995, prior to the illness, as a man, and you are a man, I mean, you have to be like all the rest of us who want to say, "I want to be that man now." John: Mm-hm. Dennis: Do you feel that? John: Yes, I do, and yet they had some tapes of me preaching before my illness, but one day I listening one of my messages, and I was pretty harsh, and I was listening and "I don't like that guy," and I took tape out and threw it out window. [laughter]  And I like the new me better.  But, you know, my Donna puts it this way, said, before my illness I sort of knock them over the head but now I grab them by the heart.  But, you know, I think the Lord just decided if I going to use John, I going to break him all the way down and start over.  But what I know of me before, and what she telling me and so forth, I like the new me, and things don't bother me maybe like bother other people, because I've been through just so much, and not a whole lot more I could lose, you know?  So, okay, that part of it, let's go on, and I have a good time.  I tell people I'm a few fries short of a Happy Meal, but I'm happy. [laughter]  Bob: You know, in circumstances like this, it's not unusual for people to say "Lord, why me?  Why is this the path You put me on?"  And it's not just the person who goes through the meningitis who asks that, but it's the person who is caring for the person who goes through the meningitis.  How have you wrestled with the "Why me?" question, Donna? Donna: I have wrestled with it, that's, you know, why – you know, I kept telling the Lord, "Lord, we were fine," you know, "we were fine," but the Lord has just showed me, "Donna, I have something special for you," and I have learned so many things through this, and I thank the Lord that He's brought us through this because I love him more, and I love him in a different way, and it's closer, and God is able to use us.  And if we're just willing to say, "Okay, Lord, it's all right.  Whatever you bring to my life, I know it's for my good."   Every day when I surrender the new thing that, "Okay, Lord, you can have that," and I was just – struggled.  I hung onto the back things, I guess, because I could remember them.  I hung onto the things in my past, and so – but every time I'd surrender, it was just so much better, and the Lord just eased and gave me so much comfort in knowing that the Lord has a reason for it. Bob: This is almost an impossible question for you to answer, but if the Lord came to you today and said, "Okay, I'll give you the old John, and we'll start from here with things the way they were, and we'll take everything of the last 15 years." Dennis: That's a hard question. Bob: You can have your choice, what do you want?  If you could go back and undo the last 15 years and just kind of be on the path you were on, which is what you longed for at some point, would you pick that, do you think? Donna: No, sir.  I'd take what the Lord has given us, I really would. Bob: You'd say, "This path has been the right one for me." Donna: Yes, sir.  I think if you'd asked me that a few years ago, I'd probably have said no.  But I know that God – this is God's plan for my life, and it's okay. Dennis: It's back to what John said earlier – "God is good, and He's right." Donna: Yes, sir. Dennis: And … Bob: … blessed be the name of the Lord, right? Dennis: Yeah, even though it's not been easy, you've begun to experience some of the benefit of the pain that you've been through.  Can you share some of those benefits, what they would be? Donna: It's a closer relationship with the Lord.  Also faith – just knowing that God's going to take care of us, regardless of what we go through. Dennis: Give us an illustration of that.  How has He provided for you? Donna: Oh, He's taken care of everything.  I mean, we have more than we need.  As far as the physical things, God supplies everything.  Every time he goes to the hospital, I think, "Oh, here we go again," you know, but the Lord always takes care of everything, and everything always gets paid, we never late on bills.  God takes care of everything, and also our spiritual – God takes care of us spiritually, too, and gives us courage and strength and I think one thing that really touches my heart, too, is, you know, when John was in the hospital, you know, he'd just say the name of God, I knew he was praying to the Lord.  And, you know, God does – He never leaves us or forsakes us regardless. And so, you know, John might have forgot everything, and John with that hard – I couldn't go through those things at the time with him, but the Lord was with him all the way through it.  It doesn't matter how hard it gets, he's there.  And so how hard it gets on me or whoever, God is there, and we've just got to trust Him. Dennis: John, do you have anything to add to that? John: Well, the Lord gives us grace not just endure but enjoy, and, you know, he doesn't just say, "Okay, I'll give you enough grace endure this," there are times of endurance, but most time it's enjoyment.  And I get to travel, and I really cannot get to all the places people have invited me.  It's just incredible.  That's how I met one of your staff.  I took my first trip California by myself, and on airplane.  I told my Donna, "I can do it." Dennis: What's your vision?  What is it again? John: I'm blind, legally blind. Dennis: But it's 20 what? John: I don't know the number.  I can – one eye I can just make figures.  Like, I can tell you're there, but I wouldn't be able to recognize you.  Now, with these goggles that I have under here, I can read if I'm up close, and … Dennis: So how do you negotiate steps to get on a plane and to travel to California? John: You know, people are so nice to blind people.  If you've got that cane, they get out of your way. [laughter]  And I just able to make it through, and I called her, and I was there at the place, and I said, "Donna, nobody speaking English here, where am I?" [laughter]  Dennis: You were in California. [laughter]  John: She teasing – I was teasing her like I ended up another country or something.  But, you know, it's been fun.  One time I went and heard a speaker, she went with me, and this man said, "I know some of you out there got skeletons in your closet."  Well, I not been taught that yet, and I'm thinking real, and I'm sitting there thinking, "Oh, mercy, if I knew somebody like that, I'd tell on them," you know?  And who would do that?  You know, and what skeleton is it?  And I got home, and I said, "Donna, that man knew people there with skeletons, and he wouldn't tell on them."  And she then had to explain to me. So I am learning all those things, but I do have fun, I do, and the Lord has been – just give me joy as well through the trials and I'm not always laughing, but I love hearing you, because you all laugh a lot, and I love be around happy people.   Bob: John, when you started losing your eyesight eight months ago … John: Mm-hm, yes. Bob: You had to think, you know, "Lord, haven't I had enough?  I mean, couldn't we just keep the eyes?  That would sure be helpful."  John: Yes.  Oh, Bob, that was one of the biggest struggles.  I should have been able to ace that one after what I've been through, but, I tell you, I struggled.  At first I couldn't believe it happening.  I thought, "Surely not."  Then I thought, "Oh, this just be two or three week, and the Lord say, 'Okay, I just testing you.'"  But it went on and on and on.  I almost felt like when Abraham was asked to give his son, and I thought of my sight, oh, I remember, I'd tell God, "Okay, Lord, not my will, thine be done," and then I had to tell Him, "I sorry, Lord, I didn't mean it," like I needed to tell him, but, I mean, I knew I was just saying the words. Because my ministry been built around telling people that we can trust the Lord with anything, and we can go on.  He said, "Rejoice in the Lord always," and I'd lost my joy over this.  "Oh, God," I said, "I'm so sorry," and it was just like I raised the knife, and I believe Abraham, when God told him offer son, I think probably at the time God knew he really would do it.  He stopped him and said, "Okay," and I finally got a point, "Okay, God, if you want the eyes, too, that is okay.  I really do mean it."   But that really was a big struggle for me.  I should have been stronger, but I wasn't. Dennis: John, I was told when you were going to come down here that just from an illness standpoint and battling all that you're battling, you might not have the stamina.  You've done remarkable. John: Thank you. Dennis: I mean, you're hanging in there with Bob's tough questions, and … Bob: Any headaches?  You feeling okay? John: Yes, I do have headache, and my pain level each day, Bob, is around 5 or 6, between 1 and 10.  When it get to 7, I have to medicate it a little bit; 8 and 9 I can live with.  If it gets 10, I have to go emergency room.  I getting stronger, but I not quite able handle 10. Bob: So where are you today right now? John: I about a 7. Dennis: Wow, wow. Bob: I don't know many people with a 7 … Dennis: Who would be doing radio. Bob: Or smiling or laughing or talking about how good God is. Dennis: And I think what our listeners don't see is, really, the smile on both their faces. Donna: That's what I appreciate about him, is he can be hurting so bad, but he still keeps going, and he complains some, yes, but, no, not like I would.  I know why the Lord didn't give me the headaches. Dennis: Not like he could, because of what he's going through. Donna: No. John: I try to be good to her.  She's been so good to me, and I love her. Donna: He's very good. John: I want to make her happy.  There are two big goals in my life.  Number one, make the Lord happy, number two, make my wife happy, and I love to be able to do that and get her things.  When I learned I supposed to love her as much as Christ loved church and gave Himself for – I remember when I heard that, "Wow, that a lot of love.  I got to work a whole bunch on this."  There is nothing world I wouldn't do for her, and she wouldn't ask me to do something wrong or bad, but I think how good the Lord been to me.  He's given me so many things. Dennis: I know there is one other thing you love to do, too, though. John: What's that? Dennis: You love to introduce people to the King of the Universe. John: Mm-hm. Dennis: Undoubtedly, there have been those who have heard your story, who don't know Him and who need to.  Would you like to take their hand in yours and place it in God's hand, explain to them how they can come into relationship with Jesus Christ and with the Lord God Almighty?" John: Yes, yes, thank you so much.  The Bible says the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance, and if people could just stop, and even if they've been through hard times, difficult times, God in His goodness gave us Son, Jesus, for us, that we might be saved and forgiven and be with Him one day.  You see, when I die, all my suffering over.  I read in Book of Revelation where John said, "in that city no more pain."  And, boy, howdy, am I looking forward to that – no more pain. The God that wants to give us that place of no more pain is Jesus Christ.  He gave us life, He shed His blood.  It took a good God to give His Son.  It took a good Savior to give His life so that if a person realizes they're a sinner, puts their faith and trust in Jesus Christ, He'll save them the moment they turn to Him.  And that's a good God, and I just beg people not turning away.  I have had atheists saved, Dennis.  I had one atheist get saved, and he said to me, he said, "John, I couldn't argue with you.  You just kept saying God good, and he said I finally one day I realize why have I turned down such a good God all these years?" And he gave his life to Christ.  I would love to know somebody give their life to Christ.  He's a good God. Dennis: And I would say to that person right now who is listening, why don't you take the offer that God is making on behalf of you?  The good God we've talked about who gave His Son, Jesus Christ.  You don't have to get down on your knees.  You can do it right where you are, driving in a car, listening on an iPod or computer.  But if you want to, it would be a good idea to get down on your knees and just surrender your life to Christ.  It is the greatest decision you'll ever make. And, John, I just want to thank you and Donna for telling your story and for allowing us the privilege of – and, Bob, I know you and I have worked together long enough, I know you feel the same – it's just an honor to be in the studio with you.  Thank you. John: It's been an honor for us, too. Bob: We want to make sure that those listeners who are interested in establishing a relationship with God through Jesus Christ, and we want to invite you to get in touch with us.  There's a book we'd love to send you that's call "Pursuing God," that explains what it means to have a right relationship with God through Christ, and this book is available to you at no cost.  All you have to do is call 1-800-FLTODAY, and when someone answers the phone just say, I am interested in becoming a Christian, and I'd like a copy of that book, and it will be our privilege to send it out to you, and we trust God will use it to help you begin to establish an ongoing relationship with God through Christ. Again, the title of the book is "Pursuing God," and you can request it when you call 1-800-FLTODAY.  You can also request a copy of the CD of our conversation with John and Donna Bishop.  We have that in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and when you contact us, we'll let you know how you can receive that CD.  You can either order it online at FamilyLife.com, or you can call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, and we'll make arrangements to send a copy or to send multiple copies to you, if you'd like. Again, the details of how you can order the CD are found online at FamilyLife.com or simply call 1-800-358-6329.  That's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, and someone on our team will let you know how you can get the CD sent to you. I don't know how many times, Dennis, I have seen you turn in your Bible to Matthew 7 where Jesus concludes the Sermon on the Mount by talking about two different builders.  One builder who built his house on the rock and the other who built his house on the sand, and you have reminded us that when storms come in life, the kinds of storms like John and Donna Bishop have experienced, it's really a test of our foundation on what is our life and our marriage built? And each day we have an opportunity to strengthen the foundation of our marriage as we spend time with God together as a couple.  A few months ago, you and your wife Barbara wrote a book called "Moments With You," a daily devotional book for couples to encourage them to spend time praying together, looking at the Scriptures together and talking about their marriage relationship and about their family. And this week we are making that hardback book available to listeners who support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount.  We are listener-supported, so your donations are critical, they're vital, to keeping us on the air in this city and in other cities all across the country, and when you make a donation either online or by phone this week, we want you to feel free to request a copy of the book, "Moments With You," as a way of saying thank you for your financial support of this ministry. If you're donating online, there will be a keycode box you'll come to on your donation form, and we just need you to type the word "You," y-o-u, in that keycode box, and we'll know to send a copy of the book, "Moments With You" out to you, or call 1-800-FLTODAY.  You can make a donation right over the phone and just mention that you'd like a copy of the daily devotional, "Moments With You."  Again, we're happy to send it out to you as our way of saying thanks for your financial support and for your partnership with us. Well, tomorrow we're going to meet another very remarkable couple.  A couple that has weathered a significant storm in their marriage.  We'll introduce you to Charlie and Lucy Wedemeyer tomorrow, and I hope you can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow.  _______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com                 

God is Good (Part 1) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 2) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 3) - John & Donna BishopToday® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. For Better or For Worse Guest:                        John & Donna BishopFrom the series:       God is So Good  Bob: More than a decade and a half ago, John Bishop was experiencing headaches that took him to the hospital.  He was diagnosed with meningitis, and then a month later, unexpectedly, his memory was gone.  What happens to a person, to a marriage and a family, when everything about the past has been erased?  John Bishop says you have to start back at the beginning, learning to walk, to talk, learning to love. John: When she began to teach me, she said, "You're John, I Donna, we're married."  I said, "Married?  Married?"  And she said, "Oh, okay, you forgot that.  That means you belong to me, and I belong to you."  I look at her, I say, "You my Donna?"  She said, "Yes."  That what I call her ever since – "My Donna."  It was so easy to love her.  She loved me so good. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, August 5th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  What would happen to your marriage if, all of a sudden, you were starting from scratch? John: I tell people she taught me everything I know.  Every woman dream come true – her husband forget it all, and she get teach him.   [laughter]  Bob: And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.  In our years of interviewing folks, we've met a number of couples and heard some remarkable love stories, but the story our listeners are hearing this week is an all-time classic, isn't it? Dennis: It may be the best.  I mean, we've heard some great ones here, but we wanted to bring this story to you, as a listener.  John and Donna were married in 1974.  They had three sons.  He was an evangelist for a number of years, pastored a church, had a ranch for young people that he helped staff and give leadership to. Bob: It was back in 1995, though, that he was diagnosed with aseptic meningitis and had to be hospitalized, and normally you recover from aseptic meningitis and life goes on. Dennis: But what happened was, it was like someone erased the chalkboard.  All the memory, all of his understanding of all the basics of life were gone because of this disease. Bob: This is a month after he's had his meningitis that he loses his complete memory.  He doesn't know that he's married, he doesn't know what marriage is, he doesn't know how to talk, he doesn't know how to eat. Dennis: He doesn't know who God is. Bob: It's like starting from scratch and, obviously, that leads to an incredible stress on a marriage, on a family.  I mean, what do you do from there, right? Dennis: It's one thing, Bob, to have a life-threatening illness and live through that valley, but the story you're going to hear is all about how they picked up and began to live life on a daily basis. Bob: Donna, it's almost like when you brought John home from the hospital, you were bringing home a newborn baby who had some adult-level functionality but some very baby-like qualities.  Was he ever like a bad boy?  When he was home from the hospital, were there ever times when you thought, "I'm going to have to" … Dennis: Let's put it the way it is, Bob – did he ever pitch a fit? Bob: Or a tantrum? John: I can answer that – yes. Bob: Did he go through the terrible twos with you? [laughter]  Donna: Yes, he would – especially when it came to eating.  He wanted to eat his dessert first.  "Why do I have to" – you know, he was always asking questions, why he has to do this and do that, and it was funny, one time I came home, and he was trying to help me, so he was washing the dishes.  When he washed the dishes, he broke a plate or a glass or something, and so he hid it in the trash, buried it in the bottom of the trash so I wouldn't know that he broke a plate. So, you know, he was hiding things from me and sneaking around behind me when he was doing things he thought I didn't want him to do. Bob: Now, here's your husband. John: [laughing] Yes … Bob: … acting this way, and you feel like you have to paddle him, spank him, for how he's behaving?  How do you handle that, as a wife, when … Donna: I'd be glad to spank him. [laughter]  John: She never spanked me, but she had to get after me but, oh, she has been so patient. Bob: When did you – when did it dawn on you that you had a sin nature – that deep inside of you is this rebellion that you want to be selfish, and you want things the way you want them.  When did that register for you? John: Once I began listening to the Bible on tape, I – for instance, Bob, I can remember first lie I told, and at least after the illness.  In the hospital the nurses had asked me if I had taken something, and it was something I didn't like, and so I had thrown it away, and I told her I had taken it.  Now, I didn't know what a lie was, but I felt guilty.  But later on I learned what lying was. Dennis: I'm sitting here thinking when you hid the plate – that also had to result in some guilt. John: Yes, mm-hm. Dennis: So here is God convicting you of your need for forgiveness, your need for Savior.  And yet you've already made that commitment as a young lad growing up.  You don't happen to have that sheet of paper do you? Bob: The page in your Bible that shares your testimony? John: No, I didn't bring it.  I sorry, I didn't bring it with me. Dennis: Basically, what does that sheet of paper say? John: Well, it tells about that Saturday night in September.  I was brought up in Bristol, Tennessee, over in east Tennessee, and there was a citywide crusade, and the preacher was C.E. Autry.  He is with the Lord now.  As a matter of fact, I've got a book.  I have his name down.  I can even tell you the song they sang that night.  On my testimony CD I have some people sing it – "It is no Secret What God Can Do." [music – "It Is No Secret What God Can Do"] Evidently, that song meant a lot to me, and so I even put that down – they sang that song that night.  I was a 15-year-old teenage boy and lost home, and Mama was telling me that none of the family was saved at this point.  And I even wrote that I brought a Gospel tract home from the stadium, the Tennessee High football stadium, it's still there, and with John 3:16 on it, I can tell you it was a Saturday night that September, I got on my knees, and I put my name where "whosoever was" – "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him," and I put my name – "whosoever" there – "should not perish but have everlasting life."  I know all those details but can't remember a bit of it, but I wrote it there, and I'm just so glad that I received the Lord as a teenager. And then Mama said I surrendered to the call to preach, and preached my first sermon a month after my salvation, and I've been preaching ever since.  The Lord has just helped me and, matter of fact, she said able to be interim pastor of a little country church when a senior in high school, and this is true now – it's Goose Pimple Junction, Virginia.  That's where it was – population 29, and so … Dennis: Hold it, hold it, Goose Pimple … John: Yes. Bob: Junction? John: Mm-hm, Virginia, and it is there.  You've been there, haven't you, Donna? Donna: Been there, yes, sir. [laughter]  Bob: Donna, did you ever have anyone come alongside you after the illness, while you were trying to care for raising your boys and care for John and say, "You know, there's a place he could stay where they'd take care of him, and you shouldn't have to bear this burden?"  Did you have folks suggest that to you? Donna: Yes, sir, I had somebody suggest that I could do that, you know, if I got tired and so forth, and I would get tired of taking care of him, but I thought about it.  I thought, you know, I could, but just go on.  I just was never tempted to do anything like that. Dennis: Now, what our listeners don't know is the length of time this story took.  I mean, we're not talking about 30 days in rehab back to John getting to normal.  John, give our listeners an idea here of the timeline we're talking about here. John: Well, for several weeks, Dennis, she had to do everything for me, and you know what I mean, I say everything.  I was like a baby.  This went on for weeks and weeks.  Like I say, it took me near two years to where I could walk, and I had to work at it, work at it, and so forth, but it was just incredible how good she was to me. I remember one day she finishing cleaning me up again, and I look at her, I say, "Donna, why so good to me?" And she said, "Well, two reasons."  And I said, "What that?"  "Well," she said, "one, I promise I would."  I said, "Promise?  I don't remember promise."  And she went and got our marriage vows, and she brought them, and she said, "John, we got married."  I said, "In sickness and health, better or worse," and I remember I said, "Donna, I am so sorry it this worse, but thank you keeping promise, thank you."  And then she said, "But second reason is" – and she gave me a big hug and says, "I love you."  And I got an award back a couple of years ago.  A college had asked me to come and they surprise me, they asked me give testimony, and they were giving me an award, and so I was so scared I was going to have to say something and right at last minute, and I thought, "What I going to say?"   And here is what I said – I got up, I said, "I'm going to take this award home to my Donna, and will get on my knees, put in her lap, and I'm going to say, 'Donna, if it wasn't for God and you, I wouldn't even be alive much less getting this."  So I said, "This yours."  I said, "One day I get to heaven, and I'm going to say 'God, why you been so good to me?' and I think God going to give me two reasons.  He going to say, "One, I promise I would," and He might remind me Roman 8:28, "All things work together good them love the Lord," and maybe say "John, I told you you love me, everything all right," and then I believe God going to give me a hug, and I believe God a good hugger, and He going to say, "But, John, main reason I love you," and I sure hope I have something put at His feet and say "Thank you, God."  But I can't describe how good she's been to me, and God and everybody been so good to me. Dennis: How does that make you feel, Donna?  I mean, I'm over here crying. Donna: I'm thankful that the Lord gave me the strength and that I was taught those valuable lessons that my family taught me and my church taught me when I was young, that it's worth it.  It's worth it in the end.  Don't ever bail.  Just stay with it, God will bless you. Dennis: For two years it took you to learn how to walk? Donna: To walk good, you know, without stumbling and up steps.  He has a real hard time with steps. Dennis: But even beyond that, John, you've suffered incredible headaches. John: Yes. Dennis: I mean, and just times of just feeling lousy. John: Yes. Dennis: And that's continued on for how long? John: All 12 years.  Immediately, because of the brain damage, I began having seizures, and I still have those.  But I gladly not quite as bad, and then cluster migraine headaches is what I have, and that's what actually caused my blindness.  They change nature, they're sort of what they call "ocular" cluster migraine.  But those have been big struggles for me, and I got very depressed, very discouraged.  I wish I tell you I got sick and just said, "Oh, everything be fine," and went on.  I didn't, Dennis.  I got very depressed and went through some very dark times, and I even prayed, "Lord, please take me home, please, because I hurt," and I felt burden for my Donna.  She never tell me I burden, but I felt that way, and depressed people do. And I got so depressed, I begged the Lord, "Please take me home, please."  I tell people when I talk audience, I said, "You never life seen person want to die and pray harder than man looking at," and then I say, "But now you never in your life want to see – ever seen anybody want to live more than man you're looking at."  God turned that around and helped me through those dark times.  But that was mainly because of the pain issues and the seizures. I called them issues instead of problems.  They just become problem if I let them, but I've had a lot of issues, you know, to go through, but the Lord's given me grace every time. Bob: You know, the name of your ministry … John: Yes? Bob: "God is so Good" Ministries. John: Yes. Bob: John, some of our listeners are going to hear this and say how can you, with all you've been through, testify to the goodness of God.  If God was good, why would He allow all of this to happen to you? John: Yes, and, you know, Bob, that was the struggle I was going through.  Those questions were going through my mind, and I needed to get hold of something, and the truth I got hold of, I was listening to Bible on tape, but I really loved the Book of Psalms because David been through some trials, too.  So I listened to it over, over, over.  Matter of fact, I wore that tape out and had to get another one.  And he kept saying, though, "The Lord is good."  He kept saying it, one psalm after other, other – "God is good."   And I'm not saying that all that God is – He is also holy, and He's just, and He's righteous, but the two things that stand out to me is He is good and He's right no matter what happens.  He's always good, and He's always right.  Our God put Himself through pain.  I am able to read now, Dennis, and I'm not smart enough to be able to know a lot of general information, so I focus my reading on people who are hurting, because that's my whole life now, is helping hurting people. The one thing I can tell people is nobody is hurt more than God.  When He gave His Son – they say one of the greatest pains a person can go through is the death of a child, but yet He let Him go through greatest pain anybody ever through because something better and – now, I don't have to know what all the better is, but I know I can trust this God because He let Himself hurt.  Jesus suffered more than any of us will ever know, and if God love His Son and let Him go through that because He knew something better for everybody, I'm going to trust Him that He got something better for me and everybody, too.  You can trust a God like that.  He's not like many other religions have gods that are above pain and above suffering.  Oh, God put Himself right in middle of it, and I can't always tell people I know how something feel unless I'd been through it, but I can tell them the Lord does because His Son went through the most incredible pain ever been and the reason we're here today is because He did. So I know good going to come from it because He's a good God. Bob: Well, we've been listening today to part 2 of a conversation with John and Donna Bishop and, Dennis, as I was listening to John talk about responding to his own trials, his own pain, I thought of 2 Corinthians, chapter 1, where Paul says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of all mercies and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves have been comforted by God."  He is a living application of that verse.  Rather than being consumed by his own pain and suffering and saying, "Why me?"  He is comforting others in their affliction. Dennis: He is, and, you know, as we've talked here today, it just occurred to me – there are two groups of people that are listening to this broadcast.  One group, who is in the midst of suffering, and they're going through the valley right now, and they know exactly what John is talking about, and they have been comforted, as you've talked about.   But I want to remind that group of people where John's comfort came from, and to do that, I want to quote Dr. A.W. Tozer.  He said, "The most important thing you think is what you think about God."  And the key to John's faith was he had the right thoughts about who God was.  He got them from the Scripture – that God is a good God.  No matter what happens to us, He is still good.  No matter what befalls those we love, God hasn't changed.  "The most important thing you think is what you think about God."  There's a second group, though, and it's a far larger number, I think, Bob, even though we have a ton of listeners who are hurting who listen to this broadcast, and it's the larger number who need to be reminded of what they promised.  They promised, "'Til death do us part," and they needed to hear this love story.  I needed to hear it.  Who doesn't need to hear of a compelling promise that two people have made to each other to go through such an incredible ordeal as what Donna and John Bishop went through. Maybe you just need to take your spouse's hand before the day is over, and you just say two things – "I promised" and "I love you," and that's a great place to begin to build a family. Bob: You know, I think about the listeners who, over the next couple of weeks, are going to be off on a trip somewhere, a vacation or headed somewhere in the car.  They ought to get a copy of this CD and listen to it together as they drive wherever it is they're going together.  In fact, if the whole family is along, this would be a great story for the whole family to listen to. We've got copies of the CD in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and if our listeners would like to receive a copy, they can contact us online at FamilyLife.com or by calling 1-800-FLTODAY.  If you go online, when you get to the home page, on the right side of the screen, you'll see a box that says "Today's Broadcast," click where it says "Learn More," and you can find out how to order a copy of the CD that features our complete conversation with John and Donna Bishop.  We've had to edit parts of it for time purposes here on FamilyLife Today. Or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY and ask for a copy of the CD with John and Donna Bishop.  Again, the toll-free number is 1-800-358-6329.  When you contact us someone on our team will make arrangements to have the CD sent out to you. You know, on Friday nights at our Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences, Dennis, we talk about the inevitable difficulties that will come to every marriage.  Very few folks will receive the kind of trial that John and Donna have had to experience in their marriage, but all of us will experience challenges and trials in a marriage and in a family.  The question is – are we ready for those trials when they come?  Are we building the foundation of our relationship each day so that when a trial comes, we are ready to face it because we can stand strong together on our relationship with Jesus Christ. You and your wife, Barbara, wrote a book several months ago, a devotional book for couples called "Moments With You," that is designed for a husband and wife to read through together each day, to spend some time in prayer together, to look at a passage from the Scriptures each day, with the hope that those few minutes invested together will strengthen the foundation of your relationship.   And this week we're making copies of your devotional book for couples, "Moments With You," available to our listeners when they contact us with a donation of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today.  We are listener-supported.  Those donations are what keep us on the air in this city and in other cities all across the country, and so we appreciate hearing from you. If you go online to make a donation at FamilyLife.com, and you'd like to receive a copy of the devotional book, "Moments With You," just type the word "You" in the keycode box that you see on the donation form, the word, y-o-u, and we'll make arrangements to have a copy of the book sent to you. If you call 1-800-FLTODAY to make a donation over the phone, just request a copy of the book, "Moments With You," and, again, we're happy to send it out to you as a way of saying thank you for your partnership with us and for your financial support of the ministry of FamilyLife Today.  We appreciate you. Now, tomorrow, we're going to hear about how John and Donna Bishop can continue to call God good, even after all they've been through, and I hope you can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow.   ______________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com                 

God is Good (Part 1) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 2) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 3) - John & Donna BishopToday® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Forgetting What Lies Behind  Guest:                        John and Donna BishopFrom the series:       God is So Good  Bob: There are moments that come along unexpectedly – moments where the foundation of our life or our marriage is rattled.  John and Donna Bishop experienced one of those moments 15 years ago. Donna: Everything was just great, we were just having a great time serving the Lord.  Our boys and our families and then, all of a sudden, that night he got sick, and the pain in the back of his head just got severe, and he said, "You're going to have to take me to the hospital," and so I took him to the hospital and … John: When I woke up from meningitis, I did not know her.  I really didn't know anything.  I had a very unusual case of amnesia that I didn't just forget names and people, I forgot everything. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, August 4th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  What happens to a marriage when, all of a sudden, all the memories, all of the past, is gone.  Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Monday edition.  This is going to be a powerful week for our listeners. Dennis: It is.  In fact, Bob, you and I both talked about this interview that our listeners are about to hear.  It's a top five broadcast – you and I have been doing interviews for – well, coming up on 16 years – that's a few people.  I'm kind of looking across at you, and I'm kind of going, "That's a long time." Bob: You're an old-looking guy. Dennis: We're kind of getting to be codgers in here.  But, I'm going to tell you, pull up a chair, get you a cup of coffee or a Coke or a glass of water.  This week you are going to hear an incredible compelling story of the goodness of God and the love of God.  This is another one of those love stories, Bob, that Hollywood just knows very little about.  This is a love story right from the pages of Scripture. Bob: Yes, you're going to meet John and Donna Bishop today.  They were married back in 1974.  John is a pastor and an evangelist.  They live in Rosebud, Arkansas, which is in north central Arkansas. Dennis: It's just near Hopewell, which is a suburb of Heber Springs. Bob: Oh, now folks have got it perfectly in mind.  They know exactly where that … Dennis: They know exactly where that is. Bob: John and Donna have three sons, and, as you are about to find out, their story is a remarkable one. John: All I remember is from 1995 to this day.  I remember nothing before that, so everything about my life that happened beforehand is what I've been told.  And my wife, her name, Donna, but I called her "my Donna."  When I woke up from meningitis, I did not know her.  I didn't know me, my name, I didn't know – I really didn't know anything.  I had a very unusual case of amnesia that I didn't just forget names and people, I forgot everything.  I didn't know how to eat, I'd forgotten how to chew food, and I had to eat baby food, and I don't blame babies being grouchy, if you had to eat that long. Dennis: So, okay, I'm going to stop you right there. John: Okay. Dennis: Since Donna does know what was taking place in your life up to 1995, I'm going to turn to her.  Describe your lives in the 1990s, Donna.  What was John doing and what were you up to? Donna: Okay.  We were pastoring a church there in Heber Springs, and we had a good church.  We enjoyed everything was going great.  We had three sons, and they were growing up. We also worked on our youth camp there, lived on the campgrounds and started the youth camp, and were just – I would say it was a perfect life.  You know, everything was just great, we were just having a great time serving the Lord, our boys, and our families, and then, all of a sudden that night he got sick, and the pain in the back of his head just got severe, and he said, "You're going to have to take me to the hospital."  So I took him to the hospital and … Bob: So it came on in an instant like that.  One night? Donna: No, he had been a little sick, just having headaches and so forth, and then it just started getting severe that night, and we just took him to the hospital. Bob: Were you scared? Donna: In a way, you know, because the pain just kept getting worse, you know, so – but, you know, you always think, "Oh, we can take him to the hospital and they'll be fine," you know, "be home tomorrow." Dennis: Right. Donna: But he was there about five days, six days, and he got to feeling better and, of course, once men start feeling better, they want to get out of that hospital, and so he got out of the hospital and came home, and it was almost one month to the day, he got out of the hospital is really when I believe the damage was done, or that's when something happened that he was sitting in his rocking chair, had his devotions over in a rocking chair, and he just kept sitting there and sitting there, and I thought, "Okay," you know, "let's get on with things," and he just kept sitting there.  And so I went over and shook him, and he couldn't wake up, he couldn't – he was just kind of staring off. And I said, "John, what's the matter John?"  And I was talking to him, and he just couldn't answer me, and then, of course, we took him back to the doctor, and it was just from there on it's been slow go. Bob: Now, the diagnosis was aseptic meningitis? Donna: Yes, sir. Bob: And this response, a month after the initial diagnosis, this is not what usually happens to people who have meningitis, is it? Donna:  No, sir.  You know, I don't know, I'm not a doctor, but I don't know if we didn't give him the medicine long enough or exactly what it is, but I know the Lord has a reason for it, and so – because that was when everything started going down hill, you might say, to us, you know, because he couldn't walk, and we had to help him around, and his eyes were distorted, so he couldn't drive, and he couldn't – well, he didn't know how to read, he forgot how to read. Dennis: And, ultimately, he lost all of his memory prior to 1995? Donna:  Yes, sir.  And I kept thinking, "Okay, now, he'll get it back," so he didn't remember marriage or wedding, and so I get our photo album out, and I said, "Don't you remember" you know, and I'd try to trick him to say, "Okay, now, I know he can remember something," and I just kept trying to go back and – but he just doesn't have anything. Dennis: In 1995, you'd been married how long? Donna: Twenty-four years. Dennis: Twenty-four years, had three children, you were pastoring a church, and you'd started a ranch? Donna: Yes, sir.  It's a youth camp, a church youth camp for boys and girls that come there. Dennis: All right, John, back to you.  How do you develop a relationship with a wife that you don't remember marrying? Bob: Well, you didn't even know what marriage was, did you? John: No, I didn't.  When she began to teach me, she said, "You're John, I, Donna, we're married."  And the way I learned to talk, Bob, in those early days, I'd watch people's lips move.  I wasn't blind then.  I've only been blind about eight months, but I would watch people's lips move and put the sound with it.  I said, "Marry?  Marry?" and she said, "Oh, okay, you forgot that.  That means you belong to me, and I belong to you."  I looked at her, I'd say, "You my Donna?"  She said, "Yes."  That's what I call her ever since – "My Donna." It was so easy to love her.  She loved me so good.  I'd tell people she taught me everything I know – every woman dream come true.  Her husband forget it all and she get to teach him. [laughter] Everything I know is what my wife taught me.  But I tell everybody she taught me reading, writing, and kissing, and my favorite subject kissing, that's my favorite one. Dennis: So that didn't change? John: No, that didn't.  I didn't – I had a hard time finding her lips, but I kissed until I find them, that's what I do. [laughter]  Dennis: Donna, what kind of student was he? Donna: He worked hard, he really did.  He's a pretty good student.  Sometimes when he's done, he's done, you know?  Sometimes he'd tell me, he said, "Remember, I'm the husband." Dennis: Oh, so he did find out what that meant? Donna: Oh, yes, it didn't take him long to have that man thing, I guess. Bob: It's one thing to take your husband to the hospital and maybe he comes home with a physical disability, and now life is going to have to change because he has to use a walker, or he's got to be in a wheelchair, or he's got something physically that's an issue, but to have a husband come home – I had a friend describe your husband's condition by saying, "It's like a computer that had the hard disk completely erased.  There is no data left there."  To have that be the situation and to be a wife and go, "This is the man I went to Bible school with and raised my kids, and he can't remember any of it.  Our shared history is gone." That had to be – I can't even imagine the discouragement that you must have felt. Donna: It was very discouraging, and that's why I kept trying to do those tricks, trying to think, "Okay, he's got to remember something," you know?  It was hard.  It was almost like I had four boys instead of three. Dennis: Was there anything to prepare you for the kind of commitment this was going to take?  I mean, marriage is a covenant, but your commitment was challenged to the core, wasn't it? Donna: Yes, sir, it sure was.  I thank the Lord.  I think the main reason was because I had a good home church when I grew up, and I went to church faithfully, my parents loved each other, and I was always taught that when you're married, you're married for life.  And when you say "For better for worse, in sickness and health," you're in for the long haul, you know?  And so I never even thought about divorce – that never even crossed my mind.  In a way, I guess I just busied myself into fixing the problem, you know?  Okay, we've got a problem here.  We need to start working on it, and, Lord, you've just got to help give me wisdom to know – because, also, all the decisions that he made as the husband now were put on me as far as my children and how many doctors to go to and who to go to and who not to go to, and I always tell ladies now, I say, "Listen, you need to thank the Lord for your husband's leadership." I mean, I was always thankful for my husband to make the decisions and so forth, but when I had to take that role, it was just something that made me appreciate the position that God has given me to be under my husband so that he could make those decisions for me.  And so I'm just very thankful that I was taught those things, and God's just really helped me through these things. Dennis: How old were those children at the time? Donna: My youngest was 10, the next one was, like, 17, and my other one was, like, 22, I think. Dennis: Wow, there was a lot going on in your life just raising them. Donna: Yes, sir. Dennis: Now, John, I want you to know we haven't forgotten you. John: Okay. Dennis: We know you're here, but we have to get a little bit of the drama that's taking place. John: Yes. Dennis: You came out of the hospital and arrived back home, and you were in a state of – was it almost like paralysis?  Or were you just – you couldn't walk, you couldn't talk.  You could see – you had eyesight, right? John: Yes, uh-huh. Dennis: You could hear. John: Yes. Dennis: But you didn't know how to eat? John: No, and I didn't know what words were.  That's why I couldn't read or write, and my Donna taught me phonics, finally, and my 10-year-old son would come home from school, sit on the couch and help Daddy learn to read.  And my oldest son was in college, the other just finishing high school, been going college, but my family just so good to me, people were just so good.  My church was so – I remember, even, when she brought me home from hospital that one time, and they opened the door of car, my dog, golden retriever, came over put head in lap, and I said, "Even my dog loved me."  It wasn't really a bad world to wake up to, because everybody in it loved me.  And, you know, my first memories of anything about life was my Donna rubbing my hand, telling me, "I love you, it will be all right, everything will be all right," and … Dennis: You knew what those words meant? John: In some way I did.  She would have to been sort of point out to me what, like, words "good" and "bad" meant and it's hard to really explain.  It was just a blank, and so she would begin to do – teach me these different things, and then as I began to pick up concepts is what it was, and the way I picked up on reading, I couldn't figure out what letters on books – how are they reading.  Until one day she got me dressed for church and set me in the living room and on the coffee table was a kindergarten book she going to teach that morning Sunday school and big pictures, Bible story, and what I did, Dennis, I would listen to the Bible every day on tape, because I couldn't read, and I would listen to two tapes a day, three hours, and I remember when she told me what the Bible was – see, I didn't know what I was, either?  I said, "What am I?"  She said, "You a preacher."  I said, "What a preacher is?"  And she said, "Well, that's somebody tell others what God what them know."  I said, "Wow, I couldn't be thing better that.  You reckon Lord let me keep doing it?"  And I began to learn concepts, and when I saw those pictures and the big words underneath it, "Moses" and "Red Sea," then I knew that was what I'd been listening to in Bible, and I hollered, "Donna, I can read, I can read."  Then I knew what words were, and so that's how I began learning. Dennis: Yeah, how did you know who God was? John: You know, I knew I knew God but I didn't know how I knew God and, matter of fact, in the hospital, one of my doctors said this – I would mumble things, because I knew I supposed to say things, but I didn't know how to.  So my doctor said the only word we could make out was the word "God," and it was, like, Dennis, I forgot everybody and everything but God. But I didn't know how I knew Him until through the Bible listening.  Of course, my family telling me, "You're a Christian," but I didn't know what that was, and, you know, my church told me, and they loved me, and so forth, but it was a process of me learning and listening to the Bible and what gave me the great assurance was Romans, chapter 8, where he says, "His spirit bear witness with our spirit that we're children of God."  And I'd gotten a little worried.  You know, it was – when I'd listen to the Bible, Judas Iscariot scared me, because I thought, "Here a preacher that didn't really know or love the Lord."  So I thought "Just because I preacher doesn't mean I really know the Lord and just because people tell me," but when I listened to that verse, it was like God said, "John, it my job tell you you're my child.  That's my spirit witnessing and after that I never had doubt after that I had that assurance in my heart from this word.  That's how I know you, God, but I can't remember praying a prayer. I wrote it in my Bible as a teenage boy, and I've still got that, and some people, Dennis, just put a date.  I wrote a whole page, and I treasure that.  God knew I'd lose it all one day, and I had a whole page.  I was brought up in a lost home.  My dad and stepdad had died before my illness, so I don't have any memory of them, but my mother was still alive.  She with the Lord now, and Mama told me that I from an alcoholic home.  She said, "John, I'm glad you forgot your childhood, it was real rough," but she said I led my dad to the Lord before he had died, my stepdad, and I led her to the Lord.  You know, I told my family, "Don't tell me everything, just what I need to know," because you don't really want to know everything sometime," so when I went to Mama's funeral, my aunt came up and said, "John, you used to send your mom a rose every year for she was sober after she got saved."  And I said, "Stella, what would this be?"  She said, "It would be 12."  And so I bought 12 roses and put there, and my aunt and I knew what it was.  And so the Lord has been good to help me, and I so glad Mama got to – she'd one day telling me about childhood.  I said, "Boy, Mama, I didn't know I was such a good boy."  She said, "Remember, I just tell the half of it." [laughter]  Bob: Well, we've been listening today to part 1 of an incredible story as we have talked to John and Donna Bishop about what the Lord took them through.  This is more than a decade ago, now, Dennis, and, you know, all of us, as we shared our vows with one another getting married, we pledged for better, for worse, in sickness and in health, and we may have stopped to think, "Well, how bad can it be?" or "How sick can somebody get?"  Who could imagine a scenario like this, like what Donna faced?  It's remarkable. Dennis: It really is, Bob, and I just want to let our listeners in on a little secret – don't miss the rest of the story – just the love story that we've heard of Donna Bishop hanging in there with her husband.  I know we're talking to some spouses right now who are hanging in there with the person they pledged through sickness and in health, for better, for worse, and right now it's sickness, and it's worse. You needed to hear the story to give you courage, and I just want to read you Paul's great writings about what love is, because the world cheapens what love is, and the Bible speaks so clearly.  I'm not going to read all of it, but 1 Corinthians 13, verse 4, "Love is patient, love is kind.  It's not jealous, does not brag, and is not arrogant."  Verse 7 – "It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things" – now, listen to these last three words – "endures all things."   The only way you get that kind of love is by knowing the God – the God who redeemed John and Donna Bishop and who put that kind of love in their hearts for one another. Bob: And that's the – as they used to say, "That's the genuine article."  Dennis, right after we had finished talking with the Bishops, I asked if I could get a couple of copies of the CD of the interview, because I meet with a group of guys on Wednesday night, and I wanted them to hear the conversation, and those guys came back the following Wednesday, and they said, "Can we get more copies of that CD?  We've got friends we want to send it to.  There are people who need to hear this powerful story." And we do have CDs of our conversation with John and Donna available in our FamilyLife Resource Center.  If you are interested in getting a copy or multiple copies to share with friends, go to our website, FamilyLife.com.  You can click on where it says, "Today's Broadcast," on the right side of the home page, and that will take you to a part of the site where there is more information about how to order the CD of this conversation and how you can get multiple copies, if you'd like. Again, the website if FamilyLife.com, and you click on the right side of the home page where you see "Today's Broadcast," or just call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329, and someone on our team will let you know how you can get a copy of the CD sent to you. You know, when you pull back a story like this, and you hear from a couple like John and Donna, you know that the storm that they faced, they endured, and they stayed strong, because they had spent years building a foundation in their relationship that kept them pressed close to God and close to one another. Dennis: That's right. Bob: I know when you and Barbara sat down and began working on the devotional book for couples, "Moments With You," your hope was that couples all across the country would establish a regular discipline of building their relationship with God and with one another by spending time together looking at His Word, considering the dynamics of a marriage relationship and then praying together each day for their marriage and for their family. And there have been thousands of folks who have contacted us and asked for a copy of this devotional book, "Moments With You."  This week we're making it available to our listeners who contact us to make a donation of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today.  If you go online at FamilyLife.com, or if you call 1-800-FLTODAY, and you make a donation of any amount, we want you to feel free to request a copy of the hardback book, the 365-day devotional for couples called "Moments With You." Now, if you're making your donation online, when you come to the keycode box on the donation form, just type the word "You" – y-o-u.  And we'll know to send a copy of the book your way.  Or call 1-800-FLTODAY, that's 1-800-358-6329, make a donation of any amount over the phone and just request a copy of the devotional guide for couples, "Moments With You."  We're happy to send it to you.  We trust that you can use it to begin a regular habit in your marriage of coming together each day, taking a few minutes to read the Scriptures and to pray together, and we trust that God will use this tool in your life. And we appreciate your financial support for the ministry of FamilyLife Today as well.  Thanks for partnering with us. Now, we want to invite you back tomorrow.  We're going to begin to look carefully at what it took for John and Donna Bishop to rebuild their life and their marriage together after John's memory had been completely erased.  I hope you can join us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow.   ________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com                 

Lessons From a Father That Was Always There (Part 1) - Crawford LorittsLessons From a Father That Was Always There (Part 2) - Crawford LorittsFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Modeling Integrity Guest:                         Crawford Loritts                    From the series:       Lessons from a Father Who Was Always There (Day 1 of 2)  Bob: Dr. Crawford Loritts is profoundly aware of how his life was marked and shaped by a father who was there.  Crawford: My dad used to say to me as I was growing up—and particularly as I was facing difficult times and, maybe, I didn't want to follow through on something; and I said I was going to do something—boy, he would pull me aside and say: “Son, all you have at the end of the day is what you say. That's all you have. That's all you have, and you better be good by what comes out of your mouth—integrity. If you say you are this, then it needs to be reflected in how you act.”  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, March 12th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. A lot of what Crawford Loritts understood about parenting came from watching a father who did the job well. We'll hear more from him today. Stay with us.  1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. You know, we've often said that behind every great man, there's a great woman or that we stand on the shoulders of others. I don't know how often it's been reflected on that behind great men and women are often faithful moms and dads, who did their job well and created a foundation for their sons and daughters to grow up in where those sons and daughters thrived.  Dennis: You know, as you talk about that, I can't help but think about our guest on the program today, who gave a message at the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission's Parenting Conference, back last August. I sat in the audience as I listened to my friend, Crawford Loritts, speak about his heritage that Crawford was given by his great grandfather, Peter, whom he described as a praying, singing slave. 2:00 Bob: Yes.  Dennis: And he passed on a living faith that, now, resides in Crawford's life and in, also, Crawford's four children; and I think, soon, his ten grandchildren as well.  Bob: Yes; Crawford is a friend of ours. He and his wife Karen have spoken at Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways for years. Crawford is also the pastor at Fellowship Bible Church in Roswell, Georgia, suburban Atlanta. He's spoken around the world on a variety of issues, including marriage and family. His message, at the parenting conference you were attending, was a riveting message. In fact, we thought, “This is one our listeners need to hear.” So, today, we're going to hear Part One of Crawford Loritts talking about lessons he learned on integrity from a father who lived it.  3:00 [Recorded Message]  Crawford: About 20 years ago, I wrote a book entitled Never Walk Away: Lessons on Integrity from a Father Who Lived It; obviously, it was about my dad's incredible impact on my heart and life. In fact, next to Jesus Christ, my father has had the most important, strategic, wonderful influence on my life. Who I am today—so much of what I think, and how I feel, and how I act, and, particularly, my approach to my marriage and our family—has Pop's signature all over me.  You know, Dan Fogelberg wrote a song a number of years ago—a ballad. Part of the refrain of that song goes something like this: “The leader of the band is tired; his eyes are growing cold. His blood is in my instrument, and his song is my soul. My life is just a poor attempt to imitate the man.  4:00 “I'm just the living legacy to leader of the band.”  My father was a grandson of a slave. He was born in 1914—February 13, 1914. He was the youngest boy of 14 children. So, his grandfather Peter / my great grandfather was a slave. Peter, they say—my dad remembers him: “Peter lived to be an old man. Peter was a singing and praying man,” he said. Some of my father's most vivid memories were seeing his grandfather rock back and forth on the old homestead there in Catawba County, North Carolina, a place called Newton Conover, where he would just sing and pray.  Peter was an illiterate man—couldn't read / couldn't write—but he loved Jesus, and—get this—he passionately loved the Word of God. The story is told / the legend is—he would have his children and grandchildren read him familiar passages of Scripture over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again.  5:00 The old boy had committed a lot of that to memory.  Here's what I want you to catch. Despite the fact that Peter was a slave—and let's not glorify slavery—families were intentionally broken up. When young boys reached about 14/15/16 years of age, they bought a high price—they were studded out, so to speak. It was not our most bright and shining moment—it created a whole lot of damnable things that we are still dealing with in our culture today.  But despite all of that, I don't know what happened to Peter. Peter developed a passion and a love for God and a love for his family. Because of his commitment to Jesus Christ and his commitment to his family, he forged generations of strong men, strong male leadership, and strong families.  6:00 I stand here just humbled—I don't take credit for any of this. I don't know why I was born and raised in a household, where my dad showed up, and where he loved the Lord, and he loved his family, and he left his signature over us. Why wasn't I born in a situation where he wasn't there? Why wasn't I born with huge deficits in my heart and life?  And what I want to say today, and underscore before us, is that we—one of my great concerns where evangelicalism is going today is that—somehow or another, in our desire to become intellectually palatable, and acceptable in the marketplace of life, and to broker influences in the corridors of power, and to not be looked at as dumb and stupid Christians—part of my concern is that we are wandering away from the spiritual core of who we really are and the power that's necessary and needed.  7:00 Don't ever underestimate the gospel, and don't ever underestimate the power of the Spirit of God, and don't ever underestimate the power of prayer to change your life and future generations—that is to be the centerpiece of parenting. It's not the quid pro quo, or the various strategies and coping mechanisms—although they might be important—and the tips that we get in the books that we read, and the blogs that we read, and podcasts, and that kind of thing—absolutely wonderful. At the end of the day, the thing that is going to shape your future—shape your family / help your child to make it home before dark, spiritually—is a few callouses on your knees, with an open Bible, and a walk before God. That must never be forsaken. That has got to be the centerpiece of what we're really, really all about.  Pop always showed up. He wasn't perfect, but he was a man of impeccable integrity—impeccable integrity.  8:00 My father—this is not Pollyanna-ish / I'm not revisiting history—but my dad never made a promise to me or my sisters that he did not keep. Now, he may have said, “Son, I will be at your ballgame,”—and he discovered he had to work and had to work something else out—but on balance, he never made a promise that he didn't keep. His word was his bond.  He was a little bit paranoid about showing up. In fact, I couldn't even quit a part-time job that I had as a teenager—I better have a good excuse for that—because he said, “If you told that man you're going to show up, you show up.” And we've kind of raised our kids the same way, especially our boys. When they were playing sports—my rule around the household: “If you play, you stay. You don't quit because it's hard. You don't quit because it's difficult. You don't quit because there is a little bit of opposition. You don't quit because you don't like this situation. You show up. You finish the endurance ride.”  The essence of parenting is to be a portrait of the desired destination.  9:00 The essence of parenting is not necessarily great insights and tools. The truth of the matter is that the power and the authority that we have to shape the next generation is lodged in what we model and what they see in front of us and not necessarily what we say.  In fact, that is what the Bible is all about—the Bible is into prophetic leadership; that is, if you are going to lead anything in the Scripture—and this is the reason why character is so terribly important—if you are going to lead anything in the Scripture, it's not about your ability to plan, and to have insights, and to line things up, and to recruit, and to develop the resources, and to think outside the box—and all of these things that we celebrate today—but if you are going to lead anything in the Bible—anything that has God's name over it / anything that stewards what God wants to do from one generation to the next—then you have to embrace the reality that you've got to be the portrait of the desired destination.  10:00 There's no other way!  Whatever I want my children to be, they have to see it in me. They have to see me aggressively moving toward that because they were born—they were born to be drawn toward what they see—what they see.  Now, my daddy—he didn't have a college degree / he was a salt-of-the-earth kind of person—but his understanding of the Word of God, and his understanding of what it took to be the leader in his household, and what he saw from his father Milton / my grandfather and his great grandfather Peter, he passed on. He realized, if he didn't want his children to lie, he better not be telling a bunch of lies. He understood, if he wanted his children to be people who would stand up and look people in the eye and tell the truth and follow through on their commitments, then he had better do the same. If he wanted kids that would love their wives and husbands— 11:00 —and put them first in their lives—then he better not dog out my mother and put her down or disrespect her. If he wanted us kids to go to church, then he needed to make sure that he was there, leading the way—integrity, integrity, integrity. Integrity is a state of being whole / undivided moral predictability—behavior and choices that reflect your core beliefs and convictions. That's what integrity is really all about.  My dad used to say to me, as I was growing up—and particularly as I was facing difficult times and, maybe, I didn't want to follow through on something; and I said I was going to do something—boy, he would pull me aside and say: “Son, all you have at the end of the day is what you say. That's all you have. That's all you have, and you better be good by what comes out of your mouth—integrity. If you say you are this, then it needs to be reflected in how you act.”  12:00 Parenting is all about preparing a generation for a time that you cannot see, and that's the driving force behind all of us. One of the great benefits of suffering and one of the great benefits of Jim Crow—interestingly enough, in the sovereignty of God, is they didn't have a lot of margin / they didn't have a lot of filler / they didn't have a lot of applause from the broader community. My great grandfather, my grandfather, my dad, and my uncles—who grew up during Jim Crow—they realized that all they had was one another, and all they had was home. They were passionate about things becoming better, and they had a vision for you doing more than what they were able to do.  Parenting takes a look at where things ought to be, and where that child could be, and leverages the moment in history to get them there— 13:00 —that's what parenting is all about. Your child is just passing through, and our job is to point them toward God and point them toward the door—that's what our responsibility is. Thank you, Jesus! [Laughter]  When my father was dying, back in 1995—he had congestive heart failure—and the last three years of his life [were] very difficult for me, because here's a man who worked hard his whole life. My father worked—he usually was working more than one job and took care of his family. His great joy was being able to provide for us. To see him go downhill was just—I mean, it was just gut-wrenching for me—strong, yet he could barely make it.  Well, the end was coming, and he was dying. I'll never forget this—it was a poignant moment. I was standing next to his bedside; and he just looked at me in a moment of lucidity and said, “Boy, I did the best I could.”  14:00 I said, “Pop, you did a great job!” He said, “Son, I want you to take care of your mom and your sisters.” What was he doing?—he was passing a torch / passing a baton—“The race is over.”  My whole life, I've always wanted to be like him—my whole life. I always wanted to think like him—my whole life. I'm in leadership now. I tell people all the time: “You know, my greatest lessons in leadership—sorry, I mean, I should have read your blog [Laughter]; and I didn't read your book—sorry! [Laughter] But my greatest lessons in leadership came from the grandson of a slave, who— 15:00 —“day in and day out, and day in and day out, every day of his life—showed up. When he would blow it and mess up, he'd make it right.”  I'll tell you this quick story before I slide into 1 Kings, Chapter 2, and talk about the handoff; and I'll be done. When I was 12 years old, you know, I was a typical 12-year-old guy. I had a number of brain cramps. [Laughter] On the way to school in the spring, we would walk past this factory that made these chains. I don't know why I did this; but I was with some friends of mine—we would—there were some open boxes, and we stole some chains. It was like chain necklaces and stuff. We stole them and thought we had gotten away with something.  This was the absolute worse day of my life, though, because of what happened. My father used to work nights, but he rotated one evening a week that he was off. He happened to be off that evening, in the providence and sovereignty of God. [Laughter]  16:00 The telephone rang at the house, and it was a policewoman named Mrs. Brown. Yes; I don't want to say some things; this is being recorded. Mrs. Brown—let's just say she was tough. [Laughter] There was this kid by the name of Stanley that looked just like me—believe it or not. I know it's impossible—we could pass for twins. Well, when Mrs. Brown called the house, my mother gave the phone to my dad; and my dad's listening. As she's talking to him, he's looking at me; and I'm saying, “This is not going to end well.” So, she told him—well, Stanley had told Mrs. Brown where to go, where she didn't need an overcoat; okay?—you got that picture? She thought that I told her that. Now, I have to confess, I felt like it on a number of occasions; but I didn't do that—didn't do it.  17:00 Pop hangs up the phone. He looks at me and said, “Boy, have you lost your mind?!” I was talking fast: “Pop, I didn't do that. I didn't disrespect— I didn't do that.”  Right after that—I kid you not—there was a knock on the front door. He opens the door, and there were policemen there. What had happened was that my friends, who had stolen the chains—and I was a part of that group—told on me—they had gotten caught. This was the worst night of my young life.  I won't bore you with all the details of the story, but I will tell you this—at the—we went down to the factory and got the liver scared out of us. Pop dropped a couple of those boys off—they didn't have dads in the home. When we walked into the house, I had not seen my dad cry, except for at funerals of his siblings. I'll never forget this—he looked at me, and a tear began to trickle down his cheeks.  18:00 He said, “Son, you hurt my heart.” Then, he did a few other things to make sure my behavior would line up with the expectations. [Laughter] So “Yes; you weren't hurt that bad.” [Laughter]  That crushed me—it broke me / it broke me. I forgot about the other exclamation mark, but the reason why it broke me is because I always wanted to be like my father; and he would not have done that! He said: “Son, if you want something, you ask me. You don't ever have to steal anything. You hurt my heart.”  [Studio]  Bob: Well, we're going to break in here. We've been listening to the first part of a message from our friend, Crawford Loritts, talking about the important role that his father played in marking his own life.  19:00 I don't know that we, as parents, understand how our example, our model, our words, our actions—they are indelibly imprinting things on the hearts and minds of our children—things that will live with them for decades.  Dennis: And turn them from doing what's wrong— Bob: Yes.  Dennis: —to do what's right. I know we've been talking about the power of a dad, who has integrity; but moms are powerful too, as well, Bob. I just want to encourage moms and dads today to assume your office—the great privilege of being a dad and a mom—to assume it with integrity and to make sure that your words / as much as possible that your words match up with your life. In other words, you do what you say you're going to do—you fulfil your promises.  20:00 I look back on my dad, and my dad didn't need a bunch of lawyers to be tied up to make sure he fulfilled his promises. All you needed from my dad was a handshake, and it was good. If he gave his word, he was going to do it. Bob, I don't know who I would be today if I had not observed a man, who came from a broken home—my dad's father abandoned his eight children back in a time when it wasn't culturally acceptable in anyway whatsoever—yet, my dad was not a victim. My dad earned his living and grew up within three miles of the log cabin where he was born, and he died with a good name.  I can just say to you, as a listener: “One of the greatest gifts you will give your children is that of a good name—a father / a mother, who lived out what he or she believes in front of your children.  21:00 “There's a great need for that as never before.”  Bob: You know, we're about six or seven weeks, now, from releasing a resource that we have been working on for more than a year now that, actually, Crawford's son, Bryan, and his daughter-in-law, Korie, are a part of. It's a video series called FamilyLife's Art of Parenting™, eight sessions that you can go through in a small group; or there is going to be a digital experience of The Art of Parenting, something you can go through as a couple, online. All of this is designed to help moms and dads understand what the biblical priorities for parenting ought to be.  In fact, we're kicking all of this off with a movie that's going to be in theaters for two nights only—May 1st and May 3rd—a movie we've produced called Like Arrows—got help with this from our friends, Alex and Stephen Kendrick. Alex has a role in the film, and it's all designed to raise the issue of parenting.  22:00 We really want to begin a movement of intentional parenting in our culture, and that's what these resources are all about. You can find out more about what's coming when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the parenting link you see there. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com.  Let me also mention—Dr. Crawford Loritts has written a book about his father—a book called Never Walk Away: Lessons on Integrity from a Father Who Lived It. It's a book that we have in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can order the book from us, online, as well, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order: 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”  You know, I mentioned this new emphasis on parenting—one of the things we are working on is a strategy to get this material into the hands and hearts of people who don't listen to FamilyLife Today— 23:00 —folks who may not be actively involved in a local church—but people who would be open to understanding what the Bible teaches about how we raise the next generation. We believe there are a lot of folks like that. We are developing strategies, right now, that will help us get this material into their hands. We've calculated—it's going to take us $10 a home to be able to reach someone with this content and get them engaged with what they're hearing. Of course, they'll have the chance to hear the gospel as we do that.  We'd love to ask you to help support the work that we're doing to help us reach more people with God's design for marriage and family. It's easy enough to do. You can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. When you get in touch with us and make a donation, as a way of saying, “Thank you,” we want to send you seven prayer cards. These are designed so that you, as a parent or grandparent, can be praying more purposefully/more intentionally for your children or your grandchildren.  24:00 They tuck right into your Bible—they are our gift to you when you donate to help us reach more folks with practical biblical help and hope for marriages and families. We look forward to hearing from you, and thanks for your partnership with us.  And we hope you'll join us back tomorrow when we are, again, going to hear from Dr. Crawford Loritts about the priorities of parents. I hope you can tune in.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife® of Little Rock, Arkansas; A Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

A good friend of Alan’s, publisher of the online XR news publication, VR Voice, drops by the show for a general chat about the future of the space, including the potential for XR to help train workers in a future where retirement is less common, saving money by designing hospitals in VR before brick meets mortar, the video game crash of 1983, and a little Fruit Ninja. Alan: Today’s guest is a good friend of mine, Bob Fine. In 2011, Bob launched the only printed magazine covering social media, The Social Media Monthly. In January 2014, he launched his second print titled The Startup Monthly in May 2016, he launched — what I love — VRVoice.co, a content vertical on all things virtual reality. In addition to his publishing endeavors, Bob continues to provide I.T. strategic planning consulting services to both private sector and non-profit communities. Bob has over 10 years of additional work experience as a systems and sales engineer with various companies, including CMGi, Hughes Network, IOWave and Raytheon, as well as two of his own consulting companies, Geoplan and the Cool Blue Company. I want to have a warm welcome; thank you, Bob, for joining us on the show today. Bob: Alan, thanks very much for having me. I’m honored to be one of your guests. Alan: It’s my absolute pleasure and honor to have you on the show. I’ve met with you many times. You’ve actually shared some CES stories, and we’ve been in a little glass booth in CES together. That was wonderful. You have your own podcast and news outlet, talking about all things virtual reality, VRVoice. That is been amazing, and you’ve been a great influencer in the space, so thank you. Bob: Well, I appreciate that. Alan: So the first question I love to ask everybody is, what is the best VR/AR/XR experiences — or what are some of the best experiences — that you’ve had so far? Bob: You know, I guess from my perspective; I’m a longtime video gamer. I just went to PAX East on Friday, up in Boston. I was my first PAX event. And if you’re not familiar, that’s the Penny Arcade conference. Huge, huge gaming conference. It makes E3 look minuscule. And I’m old enough where I started with an Atari 2600. One my the reasons I started looking at VR again in 2016 was because of that video gaming interest. When you ask me my best experiences right now, I’m going to kind of… I’m thinking about some of the early games that that I played, that gave me that “woah” moment. As I’m thinking back to it now, this was actually on HTC VIVE — first gen, which was only maybe 3, 4 years ago now — and I was so impressed with the first generation of hardware that I was like, “well, this is ready for prime time.” The prices might still be a little bit high, but the quality of the gaming was there already. Just two off top my head is the VR version of Fruit Ninja, which I’ve personally put about 400-500 people through, because it’s one of the best and fastest experiences I think you can give somebody that’s never tried VR, but you can give to anybody whether they’re five years old or ninety five years old. Alan: Slicing fruit in VR is magical, and the fact that they have the haptic feedback to the controller is just… [implied Chef Kiss]. You’re right, it is a magical experience. Bob: The other game that I was really getting addicted to was Space Pirates, which I think is still just a brilliant early video game that demonstrates the quick and easy access to VR. It’s kind of like the space invaders of AR, I think, in terms of what those early games that caught fire and was easy to pick

Dr. Lonny Shavelson is the founder of Bay Area End of Life Options, a medical practice in Northern California devoted to educating about medical aid in dying and supporting patients and families through this process. Contact Bay Area End of Life Options Transcript Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Please note there is some content that is explicit in this episode. Dr. Bob: Dr. Lonny Shavelson is the founder of Bay Area End of Life Options, a medical practice in Northern California, devoted to educating medical providers about medical aid and dying, and supporting patients and families through this process. As you'll soon discover, Dr. Shavelson is an intelligent, articulation and passionate physician, who has a huge heart and is committed to providing excellent care to people dealing with terminal illnesses. He and I are bonded by a similar commitment. We also share a bond in that we were both emergency physicians in the past. We've seen the standard way people are cared for at the end of life, which is often not very pretty, and often not aligned with how they've lived their life. As you'll hear in this interview, Dr. Shavelson has experienced his own brush with death, which has created far more understanding and empathy than he could've imagined. I hope you find this discussion as informative and interesting as I did. Well, Lonny, I've been looking forward to this conversation with you for quite some time. I saw it coming up on my calendar. I was excited and woke up today really energized to have this conversation and be able to explore deeply, what it's like for you to be a physician that's in the same realm as I am, in support of medical aid and dying. Thank you for taking the time to speak to me and my listeners today. Dr. Shavelson: You're really welcome, I'm glad to be here. Dr. Bob: Yeah. So, just maybe give me a little bit of ... Give all of us a little bit of background, as to how you came to be the physician with Bay Area End of Life Options. What was your journey leading up to that, and what made you decide to venture into this? Dr. Shavelson: Let's see if I can condense this a little bit. When my interest in going into medicine in general, as happens with many people who go into medicine, comes from a family history of dealing with illness. I think many people in medicine if you ask them this question, why you went in, they'll start off with the, "I want to help people," answer. And if you dig a little bit deeper, you'll find there was some illness in the family in their prior history. So mine, very specifically, was my mother had Crohn's Disease. It's an inflammatory disease of the bowel. And because of that disease, imagine having cramps and diarrhea all of your life every day and having multiple surgeries on your bowel to try to accommodate it and bowel obstructions and all that. She was a pretty miserable person, and also in retrospect, severely depressed. So when I was starting at the age of about 14, I became not only aware of the fact that my mother was suicidal, but she enrolled me in pacts for her death. Part of the reason that I was guided toward medical school was because of the, my mother sort of wanting to know that I would be available, not only to help her in her illness but also to help her die. Dr. Bob: Wow. Dr. Shavelson: So we used to have conversations around the dinner table about my mother's dying. And I thought that was the normal way people grew up. I didn't, you know ... You know, if you grow up in a certain way, you assume that that's the way it is. You don't have any other experience of any other childhood to compare it with. So I thought discussions about death and dying were what people talked about during dinner. Dr. Bob: Not me, it wasn't happening at my dinner table, I'll tell you that much. Dr. Shavelson: Yeah, now I realize that [inaudible 00:03:48] doing that. We didn't have football and baseball on the TV. We had sort of philosophical conversations about death and dying, including suicide. Dr. Bob: Wow. Dr. Shavelson: So my mother- Dr. Bob: We had the Dick Van Dyke show, and the Andy Griffith Show. Dr. Shavelson: Well, we did some of that too. It falls short to what it was. So anyway, I grew up with death and dying discussions, including the potential for suicide as a rational way out of an illness. That was one thing that guided me, certainly into medicine, and when I got into medicine, I kind of left that behind for a long time, realizing it was pathological. It wasn't reasonable, especially in my mother's case. She was severely depressed I was her son. She had asked me to help her kill herself a number of times, and I had turned that down. But in the end, I knew that if she was very sick, and if that was what she did, and if it was more reasonable that I would then help her. And this was way before anything like medical aid in dying or what was then called physician-assisted suicide, was even thought to be legal at any time in the future. We were back in the 1970s by the time I went to medical school. Anyways, so that led up to ... You know, I got into my medical career as an emergency medicine doctor. Over time, I developed a dual career as a journalist and a photographer, as well as a medical doctor. So I worked about half time at each and actually moved fairly advanced in journalism with writing some books, with working with NPR as a reporter. So my journalism career took off in the same way that my medical career did, pretty much advancing over time. And to cut this to the chase, in 1996, I wanted to explore this question about what was then called physician-assisted suicide more deeply on an official level. The reason was that Jack Kevorkian was starting his nonsense, killing patients. And I always change that to killing patients who weren't his patients. And I thought that that was not a very good model of what we could look at for helping people die in the United States. But it really struck me that there was a significant underground, where ... You know, and I know, Bob, that before anything was legalized, if somebody were close to death and were really suffering, we would turn up morphine drips, we would increase medications in such a way that we knew we were participating in aid in dying. But with a wink and a nod to the families saying, "Give him morphine once an hour," type of thing. Knowing that would bring on the death. Because the patient was having severe suffering and was nearly unconscious and just needed to be helped along. That, and the presence of the ... I was going to say [inaudible 00:06:38] presence of the AIDS community. People were dying of Autoimmune deficiency disease. And they were really actively participating, but in the underground, of hoarding medication. So if you had AIDS, you could easily tap into the AIDS community and get thousands of tablets of morphine or methadone. It wasn't hard to do, because people were hoarding their medications with the intent of using it themselves. And if they end up not needing it, then they would pass it on to this sort of medical bank where medications were stored. That was the beginning of an interest I had in the pharmacology because they had the pharmacology to really try to do this right. Whereas individuals in their homes and in darkened bedrooms were talking with their family about wanting to die and then taking all of their, let's say their hospice medications. That often did not work. Anyways, this led to a book I wrote, called A Chosen Death, in 1996. And it was called the Dying Confront Assisted Suicide. It was about this underground ... I found families and doctors and nurses, and various people who were participating in a very significant underground. Where they were helping people, who requested aid in dying. They were doing it without charting a note; they were doing it without keeping any record of what happened. But I was able to write the story of five different families as they progressed through this. And in 1996, A Chosen Death came out. And the conclusion was very, very simple. When you look at what I call dark bedroom suicides when you look at those dark bedroom suicides, hidden, and nobody could talk about them, there were so many things wrong. One was that often because of inexperience; the wrong people were taking the wrong medications at the wrong times for the wrong reasons. And then taking medications that didn't work and having disasters follow. It just was a terrible scene, actually. And my conclusion was, this is going to go on like ... Comparison with abortion is very strong, is that there were back-alley abortions, and we were having dark bedroom suicides. What's wrong with the back alley abortions is that they were terrible, they were not supervised, they were not done well. And they would continue no matter what. What's wrong with the dark bedroom suicides was the same. So I made a very strong, I think argument in the book for legalization. Based on the fact that making this illegal was not working, was creating a disaster for families at the most important parts of their loved one's lives. That started, my political involvement for about three, four years I stayed very politically involved as the supreme court was writing its decision. In 1998, the Supreme Court made a decision where all nine justices decided this was not a constitutional right. But that the states had the right to do this. So in other words, there's nothing in the constitution that says that legal medical aid in dying should exist. But there's also nothing that prohibits the states from doing it. So one by one, I watched the states Oregon, Washington, Montana. It took 22 years more after I wrote the book A Chosen Death before we got this all legalized in California. And then, to bring it up to the present, when the law was legalized, I thought the way of starting it up was terrible. There was not enough primary education happening. Doctors were confused about what it was. The people who were looking at it were like, medical risk advisors and hospitals, and lawyers in hospitals trying to figure out their policy. And nobody was looking at the clinical practice of how this would work. So I decided to start up a practice with the intent of a couple of things. One was that I would be available to patients who could not find another doctor to do medical aid in dying with them. So if a patient had a desire for medical aid in dying or at least a question about it, and they approached all of their physicians, and the physicians said, "No," for a variety of reasons ... And Bob, I'd like to talk to you more about that in a bit. But if they couldn't find another doctor, then I would become their doctor and help them with the physician aid in dying. And that started up in day one of the new law, on June 16, 2016, and has been going ever since. And has grown so much, the request for services from my practice Bay Area End of Life Options has grown so significantly that I had to take on another doctor. So I now have Linda Spengler working with me, another physician. And then we took on a wonderful nurse, Thelia De Wolf, who is a hospice nurse. And we sort of borrowed her permanently and brought her into our practice. So we have a practice of three people now. To date, we have taken over 800 requests for medical aid in dying from different patients across the state of California. And for various reasons, we sort of brought that down by referring patients to other doctors or talking to their doctors about participating. There are lots of ways we'd windle that number down. So right now, about 240 patients have been in our practice, where we follow them for a request for medical aid in dying. And to be clear, when somebody calls us for medical aid in dying, it doesn't mean that we just give them medical aid in dying. There's a long, evaluative process. We work with them about their palliative care, we work with them with their hospices. We talk to them about ways they may die, and that this is just one of the ways that they may die or choose to die. And what that's resulted in now, we stay at the bedside when a patient takes the medication. It's the hallmark of their practice. Is that we don't feel that this should be the responsibility of the patient or the family to be taking medications at such a difficult and anxious day, the day that somebody is about to die. And everybody's worried about it. And when we walk in the door, the worry just goes out the window and they're able to do what they should be doing, which is pay attention to their loved one who's dying. And pay attention to themselves and how they're reacting, instead of being the ones who are mixing up medications and worrying if it's right, and worrying how it's going to go. And they're all alone doing this medical procedure, with the patient. We have been at every one of the bedside deaths. We'd been, I'm sorry, at the bedside of every one of our deaths, which are now 114 deaths at the bedside. The advantage of that is that we've been able to get really good at this. We get a sense of the social aspect; we get a sense of the family aspects. We get as a sense for the need of how much palliative care, and how to talk with the patient about alternatives. They don't have to do medical aid and dying. But if they really do decide that they want medical aid in dying, we are there for them. And that's the fundamental part of our practice. The other thing that having such experience does is it lets us travel the state a lot. We get requests from all over, and we travel quite a bit in order to help patients. And every time we go to a place where there's no access, where the patients ask all of their doctors, and they couldn't find anyone. We would then talk to the doctors in that community and usually find two or three. So a great example is we found that we were having to go very far up north for us to Paradise, California, near Chico. It's a three-hour drive. We get tired doing three-hour drives and coming back. So we started looking around and beating the bushes, and finding docs in Chico who might be open to it. And we now have a group of three doctors in Chico who are very open to starting their ... To adding to their own practices, their family practitioners. And they are now going to add to their practices medical aid in dying. And we are going to train them. And soon, we will not have to go to that part of the state again. And that's the wonderful part of this. Is that we don't want to have this practice of medical aid in dying become centralized to a small practice like ours. We want many, many doctors around the state to be doing this. And slowly we're seeing that happen, where there are areas of Northern California where we no longer go because we know the doctors up there who will. Dr. Bob: And that's phenomenal. Just being able to expand the access for people. And of course ... First of all, thank you for sharing that background, and kind of expressing in such great detail what your practice entails, how you support patients. Thank you for doing the work. I know that it's not easy. It can be extremely challenging, emotionally, and taxing in many ways. Because I'm also doing a very similar style of practice. As much as it's challenging and taxing, it's also very gratifying, right. I know that you feel the same way. That there are people who are suffering and struggling, and they've been shut down by many physicians, and they're just so grateful to find someone who's willing to not just support them in going through the process, but truly support them. And truly support their families, and make sure that they have all their questions answered, that they know all the options. And that the fear of this is, if not completely removed, certainly lessened. Dr. Shavelson: Yeah. You know the most common, repeated expression I hear is about what you just talked about. Is about fear. Commonly when somebody's dying, they've never done that before. And so they're quite afraid, what does it feel like when I get that close? I mean, you may know you have your cancer and all that. You know what it feels like. But when you're that close to dying, you don't quite know. It's really frightening as to where do you go, and how does it work, and how much suffering is entailed in the process of dying. So I'll sit down with a patient for an hour or two. And we will talk about what I call the how you die conversation. And the thing that, the response that's most common, is that they will tell me, this is the first time that I'm not afraid of how I may die. That nobody has explained that to them, and given them all of the options, including medical aid in dying. And really explain, this is how the process works. You may slip into a coma, and be quite comfortable. Or you may have an anginal agitation. Or you may be short of breath, and that can be treated symptomatically, but not completely. And we go through the how you may die conversation, and then every individual. And then they take a deep breath, and say, "My god, this is the first time since my diagnosis that I am not sitting here afraid of how I die. I know that I control it now." And that is the most moving, and tearful moment that I've ever experienced. Dr. Bob: Yeah, what a beautiful thing that is. And it's kind of crazy to think about, but I have that same experience over and over again. No one has told me, no one has talked to me about this. No one has actually talked to me about my death. All they talk about is how they can palliate me, and how they can comfort me and everything leading up to it. Dr. Shavelson: That's right. Dr. Bob: But even hospice folks. For some reason, there's just this reluctance. It's a fear on the part of the providers to actually engage in that conversation. Maybe it's their own fear; maybe they're afraid they're going to upset people. But it's just the opposite. Dr. Shavelson: Yeah. You know, I think Bob, that in a lot of ways, the entity of the legalization of medical aid in dying, has made it so, that before you offer somebody such a serious option, you have a real conversation with them. It's kind of almost built into the law, though I don't think that's necessarily the reason. The law really says that we have to explain all alternatives before we can accept a patient for medical aid in dying. And that's not what drives my conversations with the patients. What drives my conversations with he patients, is that they really should know what's up in their future, and how they're going to die. But that conversation about, how will dying happen, is oddly enough in legislature for the first time. And I think that's a healthy thing. There are many bad things about this law, but there are some good things about this law. And as it sounds like, your practice sounds very similar to mine, in that we spend time because we are not going to have this decision taken lightly, to take medications to end your life. We don't want that to be a casual decision. And therefore, we're going to have a really in-depth and truthful conversation with our patients. Dr. Bob: Right. And really, by setting up our practices the way that we have, it really facilitates that. I understand the limitations that a lot of providers have, a lot of physicians. They don't have the time, or it's very difficult to make the time to have the depth of conversation that is required to work through all of these different aspects of life and death. There have been a number of occasions where I have been asked to come and speak with someone who's requesting support through aid and dying. And after exploring all of the things that are leading up to it, and their reasoning, and what they're going through, they've actually made the decision to not request medical aid in dying. But to choose a different route, which in several cases, has meant bringing things into their life which will enhance the quality of their life. To try, some of the integrative therapies that we offer. They'll bring in a music therapist to do some legacy work. They'll bring in exercise, or physical therapist to provide them a little bit more human touch and connection. The conversations that sometimes occur unexpectedly have been so meaningful and profound. And then they may come back, in another month or two, or may not. But I think the opportunity to explore this option, for many people, has allowed them to look at things in a different light. And I think as you've experienced as well, sometimes people just want the option available to them just in case. They have a clearly terminal illness. They know what's coming in their future. But they're not in the point where they're ready to check out. But once they have this available to them, they have such a dramatic shift. And part of it is- Dr. Shavelson: It's a shift in thinking and feeling. They become comfortable to explore. I'm right with you, is that what happens sometimes when you tell them that medical aid in dying is available when I sit at the bedside and I hold somebody's hand, and say, "It's okay. We're here if you want that we will do that." And agree with them, which is the first time they've had agreement rather than battles about it. And I say, "It's okay if you want to do medical aid in dying, I'm here. I will do that if you get to the point where you're suffering enough." And that allows them to go back into treatment. I'll give you a very specific example we had just recently. We had a 58-year-old guy with lymphoma mass in his chest, who was quite uncomfortable from it, that turned out to be cancer in a lymphoma, which is quite treatable. But the treatment takes chemotherapy and radiation, and he had seen the path that some people with chemotherapy or therapy and radiation go. And it's really suffering and uncomfortable for some people. So he turned it down. He said, "Okay, I'm deciding not to have that treatment." They told him it was still treatable; they told him he could live with it. But he decided, no I'm not going to do all those nasty chemicals and the radiation. And he was sent home to hospice because that time he was getting sicker. And then it took him a month to get somebody to agree that they would help him in medical aid in dying, which was what he was asking for. So he was in a hospice that didn't participate, and the family found my practice on the web. I came down to see him. And he ... You know, we had the long conversation about how you die, and why he wanted to reject treatment. And he was just fundamentally scared of dying, and he wanted not to have these sort of dangerous, and difficult treatments on the way that would make him even more uncomfortable and give him more agony. He just didn't get it. So, I agreed. I said, "Okay. You can, if you want, have medical aid in dying. We will be there if you're suffering. And it's not there yet, but we will be there if you're suffering in any way, shape or form gets too bad that you want medical aid in dying. We will be there for you. And oddly enough, he turned back around, decided to go back and have chemotherapy and radiation. He knew that if the chemotherapy and radiation got so bad for him, he could turn to us and have medical aid in dying. He knew if he's dying eventually got so bad. So he went back, and he had chemotherapy and radiation, and lived for another year and a half as a result of that decision, always knowing that he had the ability, if things got so bad, to have medical aid in dying. That we would help him die. And then it took a year and a half, and then three months after that when he went back into hospice after the treatment stopped working it was another three months before he finally got to the point of saying, "I'm now uncomfortable enough." And we helped him to die probably about 18 months after his initial diagnosis when he was dying within weeks when we first met him. So these turnarounds can be very dramatic by just saying, "If things happen that are bad, we'll be there for you." We actually have two patients now on the transplant list. One for a bone marrow transplant, and one for a liver transplant, who are keeping us just sort of in the sideline. Dr. Bob: Yeah, in the wings. Dr. Shavelson: Where they're, in case ... The bone marrow transplant especially, because if a bone marrow transplant fails, it can fail spectacularly. So he's starting the bone marrow transplant only because he knows that if things really go down fast, if he gets very, very sick very quickly during the transplant process, that we will be there to help him die. And that's allowing him to move forward with the transplant. I think those are phenomenal stories. They're not the typical death that we do, but they happen often enough, that I can tell you taking away the fear of death allows you to really push forward with your life. Dr. Bob: And that happens from the very first conversation, right. And it's so profound; it's palpable. It's palpable when you walk ... And sometimes it happens from the first phone call when they know that you're going to be coming out to meet with them. There's already this sense of, oh my goodness; someone is on my side. They're willing to hear me. It's been ... There's been so many conversations that have been so touching. And it affects not just the individual, but their entire family. Dr. Shavelson: Of course. Dr. Bob: You know, one of the things that we talked about, and I think you wanted to come back to this as well, was why physicians say, "No." Why they're ... So there are two parts to this. One is, what's going on, why are physicians reluctant or unable to provide support? And then the other part of that, is what's the danger of having more physicians participating, who haven't gone through a training process, or who don't have the experience that people like us have. Dr. Shavelson: Yeah, you hit this on the nail. This is exactly the dilemma of how to deal with the access problem. So let me take that on if I can. The major problem we're having in California now is lack of access for patients who want medical aid in dying. There just aren't enough doctors participating, in order to do this. And I think when you look at the data, and everybody says well if you look at California in 2017, there are only 376 deaths from medical aid in dying. It's a tiny number relative to the total number of deaths. My answer to that is that's not because so few people want medical aid in dying. It's because so few people can access medical aid in dying. If you really wanted to do a survey, you have to find how many people have requested medical aid in dying, and then were turned down and just couldn't find anybody else. And I think that's a huge number. So it's a problem of supply, not demand. The demand for medical access in dying ... Medical aid in dying, I think is quite significant. The supply is not that high. So let's get into that. There is the most common reason that I hear that a doctor says to a patient. And these patients relay these conversations to us. They'll say, "I called my doctor up, and he said you know what, I understand your position, but I don't know how to do this. I have no experience in it. It's not that I'm morally opposed. In fact, if I knew I could do it, I'd be glad to help you. But there's been no training; there's been nothing that I know about it. In fact, you're my first patient asking for it." Is really common. And so, I don't know, and I'm not comfortable doing a procedure I've never been trained in. I get that comment from doctors, more commonly than I get that the doctor is morally opposed. So many, many, many patients tell me about their doctors who say, "Yeah, I understand what you want, but I can't do it because I've never been trained." Doctors, as a rule, like to do things they've been trained in and don't like to do things they haven't been trained in. And this law never incorporated anything about training. Bob and I can tell this audience, that you don't want to do this without knowing what you're doing. We've heard some strange stories about doctors using the wrong medicines because nobody told them what to do. And they sort of thought, well this is logical. I've got a hundred tablets of Ativan here; I'll just give them that. And that leads to a potential disaster because Ativan will not bring on death. It will bring on a deep sleep for a long time, but you will not die. So anyways, mistakes happen. The answer of that, from my point of view of practice, is that we have a policy where any doctor that says that I don't know how to do this, but I don't mind doing it, we'll call them up. And we'll say, "Can we help you through the process?" And we have done that with a number of doctors who said, "Wow, you do that?" And we don't charge a fee for it. We will just talk them through the process of what we've learned, and how this works. That could be the minimal amount of training that somebody needs. And at times, we'll do this thing where I become the attending physician for that patient. The doctor who was hesitant becomes the consulting physician, which is just the confirm diagnosis and prognosis and mental capacity. So that doctor basically sits there and watches while I help the patient to die, and watches how we do the paperwork. And watches how we write the prescriptions and what the pharmacology is. And then the next time, we'll do it again together, but we'll switch roles. And that doctor will be the attending and controlling physician who supervises the process, and I'll be the consulting physician. And so we switch roles, and we've done two cases together. And then after that, they're on their own. They've learned. And so, I have found that if one by one, we can train doctors who are interested in doing this, and then have the experience. I think you and I both know this is the average doctor in the United States probably has maybe five to 10 of their patients die in a year. So if you think about that, if maybe one out of every will ... Make a very high number, let's say one out of every 500 people who dies wants medical aid in dying, that means the average doctor in the United States who sees five to ten patients a year, will only have maybe one request for medical aid in dying every three to four years. And in my opinion, that's not enough to get good at what you're doing. If a doctor does one medical procedure every three or five years, they never ever have enough patients to really get good at it. And then that brings on the debate of who should be doing this. I can't say I have the answer for that. I think that patients who have a lot of ... I'm sorry, doctors who have a lot of patients who die, like oncologists, like maybe ALS doctors. They certainly would have enough patients die in a year, that they could get pretty good at doing this and they would know what they're doing. Mostly for me, I believe it should be hospice doctors. Because they're the doctors who see the most patients die of anybody in the country, and they're the best at seeing people die. They have access to nursing care; they have access to home visits, which are crucial. Because these patients are sick, and they can't get to their doctor's office for help. So I actually think this should be incorporated into the hospice model as one of the things that happens if you go into hospice you can get wonderful palliative care. You can get wonderful social workers, and chaplains. And if you want medical aid in dying, that's just one of the things that hospices offer. That hospice offers. And that's the ideal. We now have, Bob you've got a hospice in San Diego, I know, where there's a doctor who's the attending physician. There's your medical practice which models that. And I know that we have three hospices up here, where the hospice just if they get a request for medical aid in dying, they take care of it. It's part of hospice care. So that's kind of where I go. I actually think, in some ways, it should be a specialty care. Because it's much more complicated than most doctors think it is. It's not as simple as writing a prescription, and you're done. Dr. Bob: Right. And that's been my concern. And I've heard about some stories ... And at the beginning of our experience, we discovered some things that we weren't aware of. It was a learning process, and we discovered that different counties, medical examiners approach medical aid in dying differently. Certainly, at the beginning, they were unfamiliar with it. And there were some situations that occurred in patients' homes that were very traumatic for families when the police showed up at 2:00 am in the morning and asked a whole bunch of questions because they just weren't prepared and familiar. Different counties have different rules regarding the involvement of the medical examiner. Different hospices have different approaches. There are so many nuances that, if you're just doing this once in a while, you may actually be doing the patient and family a great disservice, if you're not aware of these nuances. So I think as you've been doing, we've also been trying to guide and train some of the physicians who've expressed a willingness. One of the things that I love is when I have a patient who tells me ... Who comes to me, because they want this to be done properly. And they know that they can trust us, and will get very intimately involved and provide a high level of support throughout the process. And they tell me that they don't know if their doctor's willing to be the consulting physician. Or to be involved in any way. They're not even comfortable necessarily approaching it. And we've had, as I'm sure you've done, we've had the opportunity to call and speak with these physicians. And help them understand more about the process. Help them understand what involved to be the attending physician, what it would involve to be the consulting physician, and to offer that support and to try to, I guess in a sense, convert. Because these are people, who may be open to it. They're not morally opposed; they don't have a religious opposition. They just aren't familiar. Dr. Shavelson: That's right, that's right. And I think convert is the right word. Dr. Bob: I think that's exciting for me when I get to speak to another physician and help them understand what the process is, and then become a resource for them, whether they're willing to take it on and receive guidance and training and make this a part of their practice. Or just know that there's a resource, there's someone else to reach out to when somebody does bring up this possibility to them. Dr. Shavelson: Right. You know, I think guys like me and you, we become ambassadors. Dr. Bob: Exactly. Dr. Shavelson: And that's a significant part of my practice, and I love it. The things that, to move this to a very positive note if I may. When I started, it was disastrous. There was just an overwhelming need, and a lack of response because nobody knew what they were doing. When you look at the beginning of when this started up, it was hospices we're against, and everybody I talked to said we don't know how to do this. So we don't agree with it. And over time, what's wonderful to watch, is how patients have been the leading force in making this expand and work and get better every single year. And you see what I've seen with our hospices in Northern California. Is as they've started getting patient requests, they couldn't just keep saying, "No." Hospices are fundamentally a loving and caring and responsive organization. And with so many patients asking for help with medical aid in dying or the way I phrase it better, to consider medical aid in dying, the hospices had to do something. And what we see now, is that something like 60 to 80 percent of the hospices in my area have now come over and say, "Yes, of course, we respond to requests from medical aid and dying. We'll do referrals." Or we'll be the consulting doctors. Or we'll refer to your practice if we can't find that their regular doctors do that. And so I have watched, number one, in terms of hospice care over two years, watched most of the hospices completely change their attitude, because of patients' desires and the need of the hospice to respond to the patient's autonomy requests in making their own decisions. And that's been very gratifying to watch. As well geographically, I've now seen that there are areas of the state that we no longer have to go to in Northern California, because they have enough doctors in that area, and doctors that we know that if we get a call from Chico, we now say, "Oh, don't use us. Call Doctor so-and-so. He's in your area; he can be close to you. You'll probably even know him." And most of the time, they actually know the doc. Dr. Bob: Because smaller communities than ... Yeah. Dr. Shavelson: Exactly. Exactly. So I'm gratified by the amount of progress we've made, and I'm shocked by how much more there is still to go. Dr. Bob: Yeah. And you are a phenomenal ambassador. Every time I hear you speak, and it's been several times now in various capacities, I'm inspired, I'm grateful that I get to be part of this world, alongside people like you. Dr. Shavelson: Thank you. Dr. Bob: No, absolutely. And Lonny, you actually not long ago went through your own medical challenge. And I'd be interested to know ... I'd like you to share a little bit about that. I know you indicated that you'd be willing to do that. And I'm also interested in how the awareness that this was potentially, if it ever came to that, available to you. How that impacted you. Did you see it from a different perspective? Having been going through your own cancer journey? Dr. Shavelson: Yeah, well. So just a year ago, I'm actually one year out of the end of my treatment now. So I had a cancer development. An [inaudible 00:40:33] cancer that this thing was located at the back of my tongue, not where I felt it. I found it because I had a swollen gland in my neck, and realized that it was unusual to have that gland in that space, even though it was tiny. So I got it quite early because I went immediately to the hospital. And being a doc, I can order up my own tests. Silly of me, but that's the way I work. Walked in, and had the interventional radiologist that I knew to do a biopsy, get a piece of this thing. And it turned out to be a squeamish cell cancer that was metastasis from my tongue. So I had a bunch of lymph nodes involved, and a primary cancer in my tongue. And took a rather, I went down to Stanford and had a rather hellish treatment, to put it mildly. I don't want to scare people away from good treatment, but we did a significant amount of radiation and chemotherapy to knock this thing down. And it did, it worked. But during the six months of treatment, I became quite delusional, paranoid. I just got very, very, very sick. It was an awful experience. Nonetheless, at the end of that experience and a very slow recovery. It's surprising how long it takes to recover from that. I'm now well, and back to full speed and have a couple of long-term side effects from the chemotherapy, like a dry mouth and some toe numbness. But otherwise, I'm healthy and full strength and all that. And it's now a year and a half after full diagnosis. And a year after the end of the last radiation treatment. So how did that affect me? One, it scared the shit out of me. It made me feel vulnerable. I had been ... This was diagnosed when I was 65 years old, thank god for Medicare. It was two months after I crossed the Medicare threshold. I was covered for all of this; it would've been a disaster even with my good health insurance. But it took away my feeling of having had a life of lack of fear. Just felt like things were going well in my life always. And suddenly it became, I'm the cancer patient. So the vulnerability persists. And the feeling that bad news can happen at any time. You know, it's not like I didn't know that. I've been a ... I was an emergency doctor for 30 years before I started that as I think you were, Bob. We don't have to be taught that bad things can happen quickly. But they hadn't happened to me, and I was feeling pretty good. And the feeling of vulnerability persists. The feeling of medical aid in dying being available, well I've been a pill hoarder for the potentiality for this since I was probably 22. Again, I grew up in a family that confronted death very early, and we all had our hoard of pills in case anything would happen. So there's no news in that for me. I like the idea that it's freely available, and that I won't have to do it myself. But in terms of empathy, I think I gained a whole lot about being with patients and kind of knowing the information they want. And how truthful and calm the information has to be delivered, and it's not like I didn't know a lot of this beforehand. I kind of like to think I was a fairly empathetic doctor before this. But the tone is different. And I let all my patients know that I just came through this cancer experience. It creates this different bond with us. And I think that's important. It's a new tool. For me to talk to them from a patient perspective, as well as from their perspective, from the doctor perspective. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I can just see that being so incredibly valuable, and such a point of connection with the patients. Because that's what they want. I think in many cases, that's what patients, that's what people had been lacking, and are looking for in the relationship with a healthcare provider. Is just this sense of connection and understanding. And so knowing that you went through an experience, where you stared at your mortality and feared for what the outcome was going to be, suffered through the treatments. I think that was very comforting and probably endearing. Having lost both my parents in a short time a few years ago to cancer, gave me a different degree in insight and empathy to what family members are going through. Which has really been a gift. But having not faced the illness from a personal perspective, I think that adds something to your toolbox. There's no replacement for that. There's no way to substitute for that. I know that given the choice, you probably wouldn't' have chosen it, to go through that. But as it turns out, it's probably quite a gift for you. Dr. Shavelson: Yeah. You know, the other part of that interestingly, and I haven't thought this through as I probably should, is that the level of suffering that I went through was pretty intense. It wasn't a fun treatment, to put it mildly. But I had the very, very high rate ... there was an 85 percent chance of cure with this particular cancer that I had. So I had in my mind at least through the delusions that I was having in the really bad side effects of the chemotherapy hit my mind very badly. But even at all times, I knew that I was going to have a continued life. An 85 percent chance was pretty high. So there was a real motivation to go through that suffering. That, I want to make very, very clear. When people use the term assisted suicide, let me differentiate assisted suicide from physician aid in dying. Had I chosen during my treatment when the suffering was worse, was most severe, to do a medical aid in dying, it would've been a suicide. And the reason is because I consider a suicide to be when you end your life and you can still have the potential to live. So when somebody has the potential to keep living, and then chooses and decides to end their life, that's a suicide. However, when patients are having the kind of suffering that I was having, and they know that that's the route to dying. That they're close to death. And so they're having the same symptoms that I was having, severe pain. My pain was so severe that I was on a really high dose of opiates. I couldn't swallow, it was a terrible thing. My throat was closing up; it was hard to breathe. And yet I knew that I could live if I could just get through it. The patients who are at the end of their lives, having symptoms like that, severe pain, hard to breathe. Existential angst. Those patients don't know what I knew, which is that I could go on and live. They know that they're about to die. And so the value of going through the suffering is diminished for them. There is no value because their death is imminent. Those are not suicides. Those are decisions about how they're going to die, because they will die soon, no matter how they do it. That's a very different circumstance. I've come to understand that there's a level of suffering you endure if you know the outcome is good. That's very different than the level of suffering you endure if you know the outcome is not good. And those are really different things. Dr. Bob: And that's a fascinating conversation. And actually, I think I'd like to have a follow-up call podcast with you. Because this is something, I don't think we can cover in the next few minutes that we have. But those nuances, those situations where a person could actually go on living if they make certain choices. That they may not be willing to make, because they understand the impact on the quality of life. And I speak predominately of neurological conditions. Circumstances where people are experiencing dramatic suffering. The actual timing and course of their illness may not be quite as clear as with an aggressive cancer. But the suffering is different. Those are the cases that really require so much exploration, and a lot of time and ... They're difficult. Nothing simple about them. Dr. Shavelson: Yeah, you're talking probably mostly about the neurodegenerative diseases. ALS, multiple sclerosis, multiple strokes. Those are ... Those neurologic diseases, when I walk into any other room for those patients, I take a really deep breath, because they are not easy. And you know you're going to have to spend a lot of time with that patient, trying to figure out what's going on. What's the prognosis. Cancer's easy. Neurologic diseases are hard. Dr. Bob: And those people are looking for support, they're looking for resolution. And a lot of times, it's really ... It's not because they are trying to immediately get out of their suffering and their struggle. They know that things will change dramatically. And they're also always terrified that they will lose the opportunity if they take too long. And I think that's not just within our logic conditions. But there are so many nuances to this. I think I've taken enough of your day. This has been fascinating. It's really wonderful to listen. You're so articulation and obviously passionate about this because you know it's the right thing. But you're also responsible. You're taking a very responsible approach to it, recognizing that it's a delicate issue. It's a controversial issue. We know what our stance is, we would never want to try to force our position on anybody else. But I really, I feel a real kinship, and there's a clearer I don't know, a brotherhood of willingness to help people reduce their suffering even if it's not the easy thing to do. Dr. Shavelson: Yeah, and it's wonderful to have you as a colleague, much appreciated. Dr. Bob: Well Lonny, thank you. This has been wonderful. I'm looking forward to listening to it again, and I'm sure that there's a lot of people who will get some great value out of listening to it as well. Keep up the great work, and we'll be back in touch soon. Dr. Shavelson: Thanks, Bob. Keep doing this.  

Debbie Ziegler's daughter, Brittany Maynard at the age of 29 was diagnosed with a terminal brain tumor she chose to end her life. Her story was controversial and painful. Debbie shares her daughter's journey in life and how she ended hers. Photo credit: Simon & Schuster Contact Debbie Ziegler website – Get a copy of her book, Wild and Precious Life Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Dr. Bob: Well, Debbie, thank you. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you coming and spending time. We've had a number of conversations over, since we met, which was probably a year or two ago. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: I think each time we talk, we get a little bit deeper into the conversations, and I think we both are very aligned in what we're trying to do with our time here. Debbie Ziegler: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I would love to use this time for you to share a bit about Brittany so people can really know who Brittany was. I think a lot of people know the name, Brittany Maynard. It's become, in many areas, a household name, and I think certainly in California, and a lot of people think of her as groundbreaking, but they don't really know Brittany. Hopefully, after this, after people hear this, they'll get your book, and they'll learn a lot about Brittany and about her journey, but I'm hoping that you can share a bit about that, because I think it would be really valuable for people to understand who Brittany was, what she did, and then what you've been doing to carry on her legacy and honor her, so ... Debbie Ziegler: Well, thank you for asking me to speak with you today. Brittany is remembered for the last act of her life, and those last minutes of her life are relived over and over again and spoken of over and over again. She knew they would be, and before she died, she asked me ... She said, "Mama, make sure people remember me for how I lived as much as they remember me for how I died." That is something that I try to honor her by doing, and one of the ways that I honored her was by writing a book about the way she lived, and I titled it Wild and Precious Life because Brittany did live a wild and precious life. She was very much in love with this world, and when she was terminally ill, she would say to me, "The world is so beautiful, Mom. It's just so beautiful, and I'm going to miss it so much." She did not want to leave this earth. Nothing inside of her desired that, but the fact was that she was terminally ill, and she had a terrible and gigantic brain tumor that had been growing for over a decade. When I look back at Brittany's life, I try to focus on the brain and how marvelous and plastic it was to tolerate the growth of a tumor for 10 years and to, as that tumor slowly grew, her plastic, resilient brain transferred function. I try to remember that. Even when I first find out she was sick, she had already lived a miracle, and it's important to focus that. The miracle I wanted to happen, which, of course, was that she wouldn't die, didn't happen, but a miracle had already happened in that she had lived 10 years with the brain tumor growing. Dr. Bob: What a beautiful awareness and a gift. It's so interesting because many people don't have that. Many people have a, are diagnosed relatively quickly after something that starts developing because it's created issues that can't be ignored or- Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: ... their plasticity won't happen, and so everything changes from that moment on. Right? They're thrown into the health care system and start having procedures and treatments, and so ... You know that this is a fatal illness, even when it's caught early. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. I think that one thing that Brittany and I talked about quite frequently is that every person's disease is different, and it annoyed Brittany that people felt that just because their uncle, cousin, niece, had had a brain tumor, that they somehow knew her journey. The same thing happens to, I think, cancer patients with any kind of cancer. We have to remember, as we interface and speak with and try to love these people through their illness, that every body's illness is different. Just as our bodies are different, our cancer is different. It can be very, very frustrating for a patient to be told, "Oh, well, my aunt did this," or, "My uncle did that." Let's just try to take each patient alone and single and look at their disease and look at their illness separately and try not to bring in all these other judgments based on other stories. Brittany's illness, she had been living with, and the tumor had been growing very slowly, and so that allowed for that plasticity. If a tumor grows in your brain in a quick fashion, a much, much smaller tumor could kill you. Dr. Bob: Yeah, or in a different position, a different location in the brain. Debbie Ziegler: This would be the same for other cancers. It would be the same for people with any kind of cancer. Depending on how that cancer, how that tumor's growing, it takes its own cruel path, and so one of my big hot buttons is that we stop and remember that everybody's journey is different, and everybody faces their illness in a different way. The way my daughter faced it was by getting all the information she could get. She was almost an encyclopedia about brain tumors, about the types of cells that make brain tumors, about how those tumors progress in people of certain age groups. She read white papers. She had a good education, so she was lucky enough to be able to read that kind of paper that might put some of us to sleep. She was able to read it and really extract information for it, so when she entered a doctor's office, she was speaking their terminology, and she was very well read, so that is a different kind of patient. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I would imagine that for certain doctors, that would be a little bit ... I'm not sure if "intimidating" would be the right word, but they're not used to that. They're used to having, to doing the education and kind of doing it on their own terms. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. There is, and there is this paternal mold of medicine that's been in the United States for a long time where, for many years, we looked at our doctors as sort of an extra father in the family that what he said was how it went. We had this paternal model where we never even asked the doctor, "Well, what are my options," and we didn't have the internet, and we didn't have this quick way to get information. In the case of my daughter, she was actually checking out medical documents online and reading medical documents. We're in a different place, and we're in a different time. We're struggling with this old, paternal medical model, which isn't working for us well anymore. Then you add on top of that that if a doctor got a scan of Brittany's brain, one doctor said, "I expected her to be wheeled in on a gurney and unable to speak," because the tumor was in that portion of her brain that allows you to speak and vocalize, and it looked like that must, those skill sets must be gone, but because it had grown so slowly, those skillsets had moved, and she was able not only to speak but to speak very articulately. I do think it was a shock, and a little bit more difficult to deal with, with a patient who's very well read and very outspoken. My daughter was, even from a young child, a very purpose-filled person. I remember they observed her playing when they were analyzing whether she was ready for kindergarten, and they wrote in the report that her playing was purpose-filled. That came back to me as I watched her negotiate her illness, and I thought, "Okay, well, those things that made it difficult to mother her, that purpose-filled, stubborn, willful sort of way, was a wonderful asset to her when she was ill and needed to navigate her illness." People ask me all the time about how Brittany could make a decision like this so confidently, and my answer is that she had the innate personality to question and to, and she also had the educational background that she could absorb the scientific information and accept it on a factual level. The emotional part, matching her ability to be emotionally strong, matching her background to be able to understand the information that is terribly frightening, and which, honestly, I mean, I taught science. I couldn't read it in the beginning. It took me about a month to be able to read about brain tumors. I just couldn't do it. [inaudible 00:11:20]. Dr. Bob: You mean you couldn't do it because it was too difficult emotionally or because it was too, the information was too- Debbie Ziegler: It was emotionally. Dr. Bob: Okay. Debbie Ziegler: I also have a science background, and I taught science, so I could read it, and I could interpret it, but as her mother, having just heard that she had a terminal diagnosis with a brain tumor, emotionally I was unable to read about brain tumors for well over a month. This is a part of what happens to the family of the terminally ill person. Sometimes, they're knocked back into a period of denial where they're unable to look at the truths; they're unable to look at the facts. I think that makes it more difficult in some ways, and yet I'm told by psychologists that denial is something that helps us deal with crisis and eventually move on, as long as we move through it and don't stay in that place. I can testify to the strength of denial, and I can certainly say, from my experience, that it is very important to overcome it if you're going to help your loved one. It's something you must battle through and get to the other side. Dr. Bob: I think that's so powerful, and, I guess, recognizing that it's happening, being open to recognizing that, and that it's normal, and you don't have to rush yourself through it, because it is a process, but if you're not aware that that's what's happening, then it seems like it's the reality and it's appropriate, and would be much more difficult to get through it and be of support as you ultimately want and need to be, so ... Debbie Ziegler: Particularly if the patient gets to the point where they are out of denial. Many terminally ill people quietly, but firmly, believe that they have a pretty good handle on how much time they have. Something inside them says it's not going to be more than a few months, but they, if they're surrounded by people who are in denial, they have no one to discuss that with. They have no one to say, "Look, I'm dying." My daughter, because of her youth and because of who she was, said to me in the hospital one night, she was in her bed, and I was climbing on to a gurney next to her, and she said to me, "Mama, you get that I'm dying, don't you? I need you to get this." It just ripped my heart out, but at the same time, I realized, "Oh, my goodness. I have to look at this. I have to turn around. I have to stop running and pretending that I can find some miraculous doctor in some other country," which is what I was dreaming of at that point. "I have to turn around and look at my child who is telling me, 'I'm dying.' I have to be with her in that moment." I'm telling you, it's hard, and I'm also telling you it's really important for the patient, really important for the patient to be able to say, "The people that love me get it. They get it. I'm dying, and they get it." Dr. Bob: "And stop wasting my time." Right? "I'm-" Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: "Be here with me, because we don't have a lot of time for what we need to do." Debbie Ziegler: In her case, she wanted us to listen to what her desire was for the rest of her life, what it was going to look like, because being told that she had about six months to live, Brittany immediately sprang into her list of, she had a bucket list of places she wanted to visit. She had a list of people she wanted to talk to before she died. She had a list of accomplishments that she wanted to be able to be a part of, which included, in the beginning, she wanted to write some articles. She decided she wanted to write articles because the medication she was on to keep the pressure in her cranium down from this gigantic tumor causing this pressure, she was taking a lot of steroids, strong steroid medication, and steroid medication at that level has some pretty gnarly side effects. It makes you get this round, very full face, which they refer to in medicine as a moon face. Brittany thought, "All right, because I don't want anybody taking pictures of my moon face, and that way, I can write an article and still have an impact and advocate for other terminally ill patients, but I won't be seen." Then as it turned out, and as many people know, that is not the path that it took, and she was asked to have her photograph taken, and then she was asked to be filmed, and then she was asked to be interviewed. All of this was done when Brittany didn't look like Brittany anymore, and she cried, and she said, "I just see cancer in that face. That doesn't look like my face. That looks like the face of cancer." I know what a sacrifice she made to do this for people. We talked about how it was normal at 29 to feel feelings of vanity, yeah, a little bit, as you're a woman and you don't want to look bad, and how she was going to overcome that. Of course, as her mother, I kept saying, "You're so beautiful, Brittany. You are still beautiful. It's just a different beautiful." She would be like, "Oh, Mama, you're my mom," but I just want people who are ill to know that those last six months that my daughter had were some of the most productive month of her life. She had a sense of urgency and joy. In between sadness and terror, there were these moments of great joy and satisfaction, as we walked through a particular place in nature that spoke to her. She'd call me, "Mama, come and look. Come and look at the banana slug. Come and look at the starfish. Come and ... " We shared those moments of joy because she faced her illness, and she was not going to waste that time. That required decision-making. That required saying, "No," to some treatments that she felt, after reading about them, we're not going to buy her any significant amount of time, and while she did those treatments and did not receive significant time, the treatment itself was going to deteriorate her lifestyle. Her quality of life was very important to her, and she said, "If I'm not getting any measurable upside here in the way of extended life, then I need to be looking at the quality of the little life that I have left," and so she remained focused on that, and she remained strong in the face of some pretty persuasive and, in some cases, almost bullying that went on in the medical system of, "You must do chemotherapy. You must start it on Monday." Even her oncologist, after doing DNA testing, told Brittany, "You aren't a good candidate for chemo." She said, "Your DNA, your markers, are indicating that you're not a good candidate. There's a very, very small percentage of chance that chemo would do you any good, and there is some chance that chemo could actually make your tumor grow faster because you have a glioblastoma now." Dr. Bob: Certainly, it would deteriorate her quality of life, which she knew, and yet still there were physicians who were part of her team who were pushing her. Debbie Ziegler: Definitely pushing that. She stayed with her oncologist, who she felt understood chemo the best more than the surgeon, and she said, "Your own hospital just wrote a paper about chemo not always being the right answer for the brain tumor patient, and so I'm saying, 'No.' I know that you know this within these halls, and I'm not going to do it. It doesn't have enough of a possibility of upside for me, and it has a definite downside that's very well known. The symptoms that will take away my ability to do some things that are very important to me," one of being that she wanted to travel to Alaska, and she wanted to ride in a helicopter in Alaska and land on a glacier. She wanted to go on a dog sled and cross a glacier. She wanted to move in a dog sled on a glacier that was moving on a planet that was moving in a solar system that was moving. We wanted to be moving in time and space, and we did it. Dr. Bob: That's wonderful. That's awesome. Debbie, at what point, at what point after the diagnosis, did the whole concept of medical aid in dying come into her awareness and start becoming a bit of a focus? Debbie Ziegler: For Brittany, her focus on aid and dying came much more quickly than anyone else in her family, because, at Berkeley, she had been in a psychology class where they had had a discussion about end-of-life options. Her class had heatedly argued about end-of-life options, and so Brittany had already thought about this, discussed it, and, quite frankly, been a participant in a conversation at a high level. As soon as she was told, and she did ask directly, none of her family could or would, because we were all in denial, she's the one that forced the conversation and said, "Is this brain tumor going to kill me? Is this a terminal brain tumor?" She was told, "Yes, it is terminal. At this point, until we have tested this cell structure, we don't know how long, but we do know this is what you will die of." As soon as they told her that, she began discussing end-of-life options. She did not know how long her life would be, but she did know that the tumor was going to take her life, and she knew enough from her science background of the course of action that a brain tumor takes that she knew she wanted to be looking into other options rather than just following a natural course. Dr. Bob: How fortuitous for her, not maybe fortuitous at all, but that she had had, been exposed to it. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: Not a lot of 28, 29-year-olds are- Debbie Ziegler: No. Dr. Bob: ... and so it could have been a very different process, and path had that not happened. Debbie Ziegler: The way she introduced the topic into conversation was, I think she was trying to spare us until she could discuss it with her parents, but she said to the doctor, "How can I get transferred into the Oregon medical system?" That, of course, to everyone in the room, seemed like an odd question, and in the back of my mind, because I am a science teacher and, of course, had read articles, I thought, "Oregon. Oh, my goodness. I know why she's talking about Oregon." I couldn't have told you the details, but I knew that it had to do with the right to die, and I knew what she was talking about the very first time she mentioned it. I knew where she was going. Within seconds, there were two people in the room. I'm sure the doctor knew what she was talking about, although he chose, at that moment in time, to not recognize it, to say, "Well, why would you want to do that? You're in a fine medical system here in California." It wasn't until days later that we had open conversations about why she was interested in Oregon. Of course, since that time, California has passed an End of Life Option bill. I feel that that is my daughter's legacy. I believe that it was her story of having to move out of California in order to die, in order to die peacefully, that touched a lot of hearts and made history in California. I smile when I think of our End of Life Option Act because, in my heart, it's Brittany's act. Dr. Bob: Well, it was Brittany's act, but she couldn't have done it without you. Right? You- Debbie Ziegler: She- Dr. Bob: You were her partner in that. Debbie Ziegler: She had help, and she had many, many volunteers who loved her, who loved her spunk, her feistiness, her story, who immediately gravitated towards supporting her. I have had letters written from all over the world, from all over the world. I now speak with people in an ongoing relationship, some of whom I have met face to face now, and some of whom I haven't, from countries all over the world about Brittany, and some of these faithful people write me every time it's her birthday, every anniversary of her death, every anniversary of the bill being passed, and they tell me how much my daughter means to them, and that they live in a place where there is no law, and that she stands for hope to them, that she stands for hope that one day, all of humanity will treat each other with love and kindness and will not be so afraid of death. It's such a beautiful legacy that it helps me accept that she's gone. She's gone physically from me. Those first few years, grief was so difficult, and I've met so many grieving people, and as I was grieving, I would literally be knocked down to my knees sometimes. I'd be crying on my knees in the hall, or in the living room, or in the kitchen, or one time in a park, another time in a store, like a T.J. Maxx. Here's this lady down on her knees, crying. I would always smile through my tears and know that Brittany would be saying, "Get up. Get up, right now, because you're on your knees crying. It means there's something that needs to be done. Look around. See what needs to be done." The first time, I got up, and I thought, "Oh, my goodness. I just opened an email about how dire the blood shortage was," so I went and donated blood, and now I try to donate blood twice a year in Brittany's name. I pick times of the year when that is hardest for me. I pick the times of year when I know the grief is going to wash over me again. Times, holidays, her birthday, the day of her death, the beginning of the year. I pick times to do the donations when I know that giving blood is going to be this beautiful gift that's going to lift me out of my sorrow. Then I look around and see other things that need to be done. I see an elderly person that needs a visitor or flowers. I see a friend who needs a visit who is fighting breast cancer. When I go into my worst grief, I always hear her saying, "Get up and look around. There must be something you need to do." That is one of the ways I've dealt with grief is by getting up and looking around. Dr. Bob: And doing what, and doing what is- Debbie Ziegler: And doing something- Dr. Bob: ... right there, immediate, in your awareness. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: I'm going to, so can we stay with this for a moment? Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: I know that I've been with you, and you've shared some of your other tools, tips, ways of working through the grief. Debbie Ziegler: Grief, yes. Dr. Bob: I think I would love for you to share if you're up for it, a couple more, just a little bit more about how you've managed to work through your grief or work with your grief as a guide here for some of our listeners. Debbie Ziegler: Well, in the beginning, I have to admit that grief was like, it was a black ocean sucking me under, and I thought, "If I don't do something, I'm not going to make it." I really, first of all, I admitted this to the people I loved who began searching for things that might help me. My sister came to me with a treatment that's called ... I don't know the letters for it. I think it's PTSD, but it's an eye treatment. Dr. Bob: Oh, EMDR? Debbie Ziegler: EMDR. Dr. Bob: Emotional freedom release, yeah. Debbie Ziegler: It is EMDR, and it's rapid eye movement treatment. Because I told people, "I can't talk my way through this. Talk therapy is not going to be enough. I can't do this." This is a scientific treatment where you are asked to follow a light with your eyes. I was probably the most skeptical person on earth that it would help me, but it did, and rather rapidly. It took me out of this circular, negative thinking that I had. I had a few broken records that revolved around Brittany's illness and Brittany's death, and those records would come on and play over and over again, and this treatment of causing my eyes to move while I thought about this, or while I thought about a very stressful day or the actual day of her death, while I thought or discussed about that, my eyes were moving, and it causes your brain to use both sides, the right and left, and your own brain helps you heal and stop that broken record from playing. That is one treatment that I feel very strongly about. I also used the treatment of touch, of various therapies that have to do with massage and different types of massage, to kind of work the tightness that was in my muscles. After being with Brittany and anticipating her death for six months, there was a lot of muscle difficulty, and so I used that. I also have a sister-in-law who sent me ... I also have a sister-in-law who sent me various scents, an aromatherapist, and she sent me a mister. She sent this to us before Brittany died, and Brittany used it all the time to help her try to sleep. That was a difficult part of the last month of her life was getting any sleep, so both she and I used aromatherapy, which is another thing that I sort of, as a scientist, was sort of like, "How can I possibly help?" Yet- Dr. Bob: It did. Debbie Ziegler: It did. In fact- Dr. Bob: Undeniably. Debbie Ziegler: ... my daughter said the two therapies that helped her the most, she said, "Look at all the doctors we've been to, Mom. Look at all the specialists, the high-paid brain surgeons, neurologists, oncologists," and she said, "Look what I'm down to in the last weeks of my life. I'm down to massage and aromatherapy, and these are the two things that soothe me and help me." She used them right up to the end, and she developed a relationship with her masseuse, and she developed a relationship with my sister-in-law, who sent the aromatherapy. Along with these treatments came this human touch and caring that's so important. Dr. Bob: You're singing my tune. I mean, those are the things, of course, that we try to, and it's just, I didn't know that about Brittany's- Debbie Ziegler: [inaudible 00:35:07]. Dr. Bob: ... about what brought her comfort, so it was really, it's, I guess, confirmation, more confirmation about how incredibly valuable these therapies and are ... Not to throw out every other treatment that is being offered through the traditional medical system, because sometimes those are very important, but the value of some of these- Debbie Ziegler: Simpler- Dr. Bob: ... high-touch- Debbie Ziegler: ... natural- Dr. Bob: Yeah. No side effects. What are the side effects of massage therapy? I'm so happy to hear that that was comforting for her, and also for you, afterward. Debbie Ziegler: It was, and we would go together, and friends would send her massage gift certificates. It was a way for them to reach out to her and to give her some solace. We had a special place that we went to and a special group of women who knew her and knew our story, and so it was a safe place that felt safe to go to, and ... Dr. Bob: And that connection. Right? The connection that she made, which was not, didn't revolve around her illness. Debbie Ziegler: No. Dr. Bob: It wasn't going to get a treatment or for someone to check and see how she's progressing. It was a human connection, which people at all stages need, and when we can provide that, it normalizes things. It enhances the feelings of well-being, so this is another pretty powerful reminder of that. Debbie Ziegler: The people that worked in the area that we went to, which was Portland, Oregon, we went to a place there, they never questioned her. They never argued with her. They just said, "How are you today? Where do you feel that ... Do you have places that we need to concentrate on? Do you have places where you have some knots in your shoulders, you just want ... How much pressure?" It was all about, "What feels good to you, Brittany, today? Because we just want to send you out of here feeling a little bit better than you came in." There was no lofty goal to cure cancer. There was no lofty goal to fix this girl who had this gigantic brain tumor. It was just, "From where you start to where you leave, we promise you're going to feel a little bit better." Dr. Bob: In that moment. Debbie Ziegler: And she did. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Debbie Ziegler: And she did. Dr. Bob: That's wonderful. Debbie Ziegler: Yeah. That's a beautiful thing. Dr. Bob: We talked a bit about some of the ways that you moved through grief, which I'm sure part of that was what you, basically what's become your life's work as well. Debbie Ziegler: That was very fulfilling. To be able to testify was very fulfilling, and I felt that my testimony came from a place that was a little bit extraordinary in that, as Brittany's mother, this was not my first choice. This was not; I did not readily gravitate to this end-of-life option idea. I stayed in denial for a period of time. I had to work through this in my head. I had to analyze some childhood beliefs that I grew up with in Texas, so when I spoke with senators face to face, or representatives face to face, and they were reticent, or they had some childhood religious beliefs that were kind of interfering with their ability to even hear Brittany's story, I could relate to them, and I told them that. I told them, "I was you. I was you. The look on your face, my poor daughter had to see. I see you avoiding this subject. I see you turning away from death. I see you turning away from this idea. My daughter had to watch me do that, and that must have been so hard for her to have her own mother not be able to discuss it, to be in denial for a period of time." I felt that my testimony was from a place of, a commonplace that we had, and I felt that in some cases, minds were able to change, or people were able to look inside and say, "Hey, maybe I do need to look at this a little, from a little bit of a different angle." I felt that that was an important truth that I could share was that I didn't start out all gung-ho about this. I knew what she was talking about, and it scared me to death. It really did. It's an important common ground that we had. Then as I went on and spoke in different environments and different countries, I recently came back from Africa, where I spoke at a conference there where people from 23 different countries met in Africa to discuss our human right worldwide to die peacefully when we are terminally ill, to seek a peaceful death. It was very empowering to meet these people who are; literally, you could almost feel the room vibrating with the love and excitement that these people have about making the end of someone's life more tolerable. Coming back from something like that is just, infuses me more with energy and confidence, and inspires me that this is important work, and that I believe that sharing the hardest parts of how it happened and the hardest parts of what we went through in the public eye and as a family who really didn't have very much of a help and assistance ... In fact, we kind of had to claw our way into a situation where my daughter could use the law. I feel like telling those hard parts and just kind of opening my kimono and letting people see the pain, that maybe they will have confidence when, and if, something happens in their own family, that they can say, "Oh, I read about this one time, and you know what? She was in denial, too. That's what I'm in. I'm in denial. I recognize this." Maybe it will help someone get out of denial. Maybe it will help someone not feel so alone. Maybe it will help someone support a patient and say, "What do you think? You are the one who's dying. Let's make a plan, your plan, your plan, because this is your life, and I want to hear what you want to do." Maybe it will help someone look into the patient's eyes instead of running out of the room and making phone calls to try to make something that can never happen. I just, I think that if we don't tell our story and share the humanness of dying, that we're not going to move forward. The more we keep hiding and not talking about it, the less likely we are to be able to face the end of life, which should be a beautiful time. My daughter showed me that. She showed me that, "Yeah, Mom, it's not always beautiful, because I'm 29, and I'm pissed off that I'm dying, but in between being pissed off, I want to live, and I want to experience joy, and I want to go places, and I want to meet people that I haven't seen in a while, and I want to finish things. I want to feel that I've finished some jobs and some relationships and before I go." She wanted a plan, and I think a dying person's plan, no matter what it is, because it may not be what you, as their relative, want it to be, but their plan is really all they have, and so let's support that plan. Let's talk about that plan and what it's going to look like, and how are we going to get it put in place. I think people don't plan. They wait too late. A hospice is called, sometimes, too late. People end up saying, "Oh, I want to use the End of Life Option Act," but it's too late. They haven't left themselves enough time to get the prescription, to write the letters, to wait for the waiting period. The more we can normalize this and discuss this with our families, with our loved ones, with our friends, the more they can plan and make a good plan, and we can help them put that plan into place, but it's not our job to make the plan for them. It's not our job to get in there and say, "Oh, you need to do this, and you need to do that." We need to stop. After they've been told, "You have a terminal illness," we need to slow down a little minute, and we need to absorb that information with them, and then we need to listen. "What do you want to do? How do you want to live these last months?" It can be beautiful. Dr. Bob: And, "How do you want to die?" Debbie Ziegler: Yes. "How do you want to die?" Dr. Bob: "How do you want to die?" Wow. Okay. I think we came to a beautiful place to pause. You and I are not done with our conversations. Debbie Ziegler: No. Dr. Bob: By a long shot. Debbie Ziegler: California's not finished with this conversation, and I think we're committed to- Dr. Bob: Co-create it. Debbie Ziegler: ... making the best of this that we can. Dr. Bob: Yeah. There's a lot of work to be done. There's a lot of lives to support, and so we will have, you and I will have more conversations, and I would love ... I know we talked a bit about what came out of this conference in South Africa. Another podcast devoted to that would be wonderful- Debbie Ziegler: That would be great. Dr. Bob: ... because that would be very educational for people to see what's going on in the rest of the world and what we have to aspire to. Can you share how people can read more about the story and get more information about you and Brittany? Debbie Ziegler: Oh, the book I wrote about Brittany was published by Simon & Schuster, and it is available on all the major online vehicles that you can buy books, I mean, every single one. Amazon, all the bookstores. The title is Wild and Precious Life. I hope that when you read it, it will make you want to live a wild and precious life, because we just have this little bit of time, and we might as well make it wild and precious. I'm Deborah Ziegler, Brittany Maynard's mother. My greatest achievement in my life, my daughter, who I love dearly, was a great model of living a wild and precious life. I would urge you to read her story and benefit from it. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I agree. I second that wholeheartedly. It's a wonderful story. It's hard to read, at times, for sure, but it is a, it's well worth it, and I think you'll gain some really great insights. Thank you for writing it. Thank you for all that you do. Thank you for being here. It's an honor. Debbie Ziegler: Thank you.

Dr. Michael Fratkin founded ResolutionCare to insure capable and soulful care of everyone, everywhere as they approach the completion of life. Learn how telehealth applications are bringing a greater quality of living and dying to those in need. Contact ResolutionCare website Transcript Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Please note there is some content that is explicit in this episode. Dr. Bob: Dr. Michael Fratkin is the President and Founder of Resolution Care. Dr. Fratkin is a father, a husband, a brother, a son, a physician, and a very dear friend of mine. Dr. Fratkin is dedicated to the well-being of his community and the community of all human beings. Since completing his training, he's made his home and built his family in rural Northern California. He's served his community as a primary care physician in the community health system, as a medical director of the local hospice, as a leader in the community hospital medical staff, and has been a transformative voice for improving the experience for people facing the end of life. At a time of great demographic and cultural change in our society, Dr. Fratkin has created Resolution Care to ensure capable and soulful care of everyone, everywhere, as they approach the completion of their life. Resolution Care is leveraging partnerships with existing healthcare providers and payers to provide telehealth services that bring a greater quality of life and greater quality of dying. The palliative care team at Resolution Care openly shares their expertise and mentorship so that people can receive the care they need, where they live, and on their own terms. In this podcast interview, Dr. Fratkin shares his passion and his intimate experience as a provider of care. He's innovative; he's creative, he's dedicated beyond what I've experienced with just about anybody else who I've communicated with about palliative care and end-of-life care. I think you're gonna find this podcast to be incredibly informative and really interesting. Okay, Michael, thank you so much for taking time out of your day. I know you've got lots of irons in the fire and lots of people vying for your attention. So I really appreciate having time to connect with you. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I always enjoy talking with you. We connect sporadically, not as much as either of us would probably want, but we have been pretty consistent in finding times to connect and catch each other up on what's happening with our lives and our different enterprises. And what's interesting is, after our conversations, I always think to myself, "I wish other people could have heard that. I wish other people had a chance to listen in and hear what we're developing, and sort of the passion that comes out in these conversations." They're so informative, for me, and I find it so inspiring to hear what you're doing and the service that you're providing and creating. So today we have that opportunity so that people are going to be able to listen in on our conversation. In the introduction, I shared a bit about what you're doing, who you are, but I'd like to have you just do a little synopsis of what Resolution Care is doing currently, where it started from its humble beginnings, and what your vision is for where this is heading. Dr. Fratkin: I'm a dad, I'm a husband, I'm a brother, I'm a son, I'm a whole lot of stuff. But I'm also what's called a palliative care doctor. And your group of listeners probably know a little bit about what that is, but the way that I describe it for people is that there are really three central elements. That number one, we don't take care of any patients. We support people as they find their way through serious illness. We support people with a team; we support their families. Our team includes nurses, doctors, social workers, chaplains, nurse practitioners, community health workers, and all the people that they don't necessarily see, but that are just as important to creating a container for our care, the back office, and operational people. So the first principle is, is that we are a person-centered, not a patient-centered, but a person-centered initiative. And that those persons, the reason I distinguish it ... It's not just the patients or their families, but the people providing the care that are centrally important to everything that we do. And then we build out from there. So the first thing is, we're a person-centered organization, using a team to accompany people with serious illness as they navigate it, right? Dr. Bob: I love it. Dr. Fratkin: So the second thing that we do is that we're really damn good at managing symptoms. Our team has quite a bag of tricks around the treatment of pain and nausea, breathlessness, and various other physical manifestations of illness. And we know how to use that bag of tricks. So symptom control is the second thing. And the third thing is, we help people and their families to navigate what is a completely dysfunctional, fucked up if you don't mind me saying so- Dr. Bob: Let's call that like it is. Dr. Fratkin: Of fragments and silos and conflicting interests, and stakes held. We help people navigate, somewhat, through the complications of their illness, but more so, we recognize that people are trying to make their way through a human experience, not a medical one. And so, we help them navigate through that, bringing the personhood that we are to accompany them with the wisdom, skills, and shortcuts and strategies that we know about navigating. So it's person-centered around the people we care for and us as well. We matter, too. It's impeccable symptom control, and it's navigational assistance. And really tough times of life in a really complicated health care system. So Resolution Care does that. And we use some technology tricks, video conferencing, all of our care is based in the home. And that's that. But I think I also wanna tell you about how I got here and why. Dr. Bob: Please do. Dr. Fratkin: So I came to far Northern California, Humboldt County, in 1996 and joined a community clinic environment as the only internist in a five-clinic system. And my job was to take on all the patient V patients and all the complicated conditions that provided kind of complex case management approach for the heavy hitters, the outliers, the hot spotters. They're called lots of things now, but they were just languishing without the attention they needed when I showed up in town. And for six years, I took the hardest cases in the system, and helped with diagnosis and treatment planning, and burned out rather quickly, because I didn't have a team. I then sort of shifted my attention to my deep connection with hospice work and became a hospice medical director, where I did have a team. But I also had a very constraining box around me, a structure of hospice defined by the Medicare benefit that was limiting our ability to do what made sense, rather than meeting all of the regulation and compliance that continues to accumulate in the hospice model of care. And I burned out again. And then, I did some hospital work. When I started, I was seeing 9-12 people in a day, and I really enjoyed being at the point of the sphere where people were sick enough to be hospitalized and to attend to them both with good medicine, as well as a respect, and frankly, love in the face of what they're going through. And that was great until they started to push me to see 15 or 18. And now, it's 22 patients in a 12-hour shift. And I burned out again. And all the while, paying attention to the rising credibility and relevance of the palliative care movement. So I became first certificated in 2000, and board-certified a few years after that, in palliative care. In 2007, I worked with the hospital to launch a guided care consultation service in the hospital. And as soon as I got started doing that, there was almost immediately, four or five times as many people as I could care for. And I wasn't able to scare up the resources in the hospital to build out a team. So for a period of years, I wrote business plans, I went to committee meetings, I tried to advocate for greater resources to do this good work correctly, and failed to do that. So in 2014, I had had it. Exasperated, fatigued, burned out, I guess for the fourth or fifth time. God knows I can't keep track. I was looking for a job. I figured I couldn't stay here in this beautiful community, because I couldn't figure out how to get a sustainable job with a team that builds capacity over time. And so, I looked for work. And as you know, Bob, a palliative care doctor these days doesn't have to go too far to get too many interviews. I had three interviews in three weeks in the Bay area, and on the way to the Bay area. And they offered me three jobs, quickly, were better resourced, better compensated, more controlled work hours, but none of them were where I lived, where I made my home, where my kids were born in my house. I live on this five-acre piece of redwood forest. My kids were born there. My dogs and cats are buried in the yard. And I didn't wanna leave. So come around spring of 2014, I started to think about maybe there's a way to build capacity, build a team, and share what I know to others so that they could make that work for the people they're caring for. And so, the three ideas were video conferencing, Project Echo, which we could talk about later, it's a telementoring structure that allows a specialist to share information to primary care providers, et cetera. We can talk about that later if you want. And then the third thing was crowdfunding. So in November 1st or 2nd in 2014, we launched an Indiegogo campaign and based on all of my relationships in the community and people's trust in my work, we were able to raise $140,000 in a little over a month. And in January 2015, myself and one other person walked into a donated office space and turned on the lights. Dr. Bob: What a great story, and a great confluence of ... And you being true to your vision, being true to yourself, to what you knew was the absolute right way to practice the ... And you took a risk, right? And you continue every day, taking a risk. I know it. We've had these conversations. I'm trying to remember when we first connected because I've watched this thing go from birth to flourishing. And flourishing may not mean the same thing to you that it does to me, because I know your vision is grander. Dr. Fratkin: Well I know where we met. We met around ... There's a group in San Diego of one old-timer, one mid-timer, but some folks that have been inspired for more comprehensive cancer care in the community for a long time. A fellow by the name of Dan Vicario and the dear, dear friend of mine. I call him my grand brother, Paul Brenner, a psychologist with a deep connection. A psychologist and physician with deep connections to really thoughtful and complete approach to people with serious illness. And it was through them that they connected me to you. Dr. Bob: Right. And I remember that part very clearly. And I've had the honor and the privilege of collaborating on patients with both of them. And it is really; it's magical to be part of that with all of their combined years of wisdom and their just beautiful energy. But I'm trying to remember the stage that you were at. It was probably early on, and- Dr. Fratkin: It was probably in 2015. And without getting too wonkish about enterprise development so that we can get to the topic at hand, 2015 was the year of getting rolling and getting the team. And we did that. By September, we had a nurse, a social worker, chaplain, and office staff, as well as a little bit of a head of steam, with a group of patients. 2016, we really started to grow. And 2017, we continued to grow and sort of learned how to be a business that was sustainable. And coming into 2018, I'll just tell you today, Resolution Care network is tending to about 164 people in their homes, from the Oregon border to the north, the Pacific Ocean to the west, all the way to the ... I guess it's the Idaho/Nevada border to the east, south, pretty much to the Bay area with a couple of other folks a little bit further south. We've got 29 employees. We have contracts with four health plans. And we're making an impact with this model of care that we're developing. Yeah. Dr. Bob: That's beautiful. And of those 164 current patients, how many of those are receiving physical ... Are you able to get to visit physically, versus doing it entirely through video conferencing? Dr. Fratkin: It's variable. The key element is, is we really do what makes sense. So if a person lives down the street, it makes sense just to drop in and see them and sit on their couch and eat their cookies and chat with them that way. If they live 150 miles away from HQ, we're much more likely to engage with them by video conference. And it's really ... That's kind of what we built into the model. It's a hybrid model, both boots-on-the-ground, face-to-face encounters, with teleconferencing or video conferencing. And we do that in a really nimble fashion so that there are some people who really can't wrap their head around it. And if they're close enough, we provide them with a more traditional home care model. We have people who are right down the street who are very comfortable, in fact, prefer not having somebody knock on the door and walk into their house, but prefer to control the framework of the encounter. And then, different specialties. For my fellow providers and me, we're probably in the 85-90% video conferencing channel. Our nurses are probably in the 50-60% of their direct encounters are done by video. Our community health workers, the other end of the polarity, do very little video conferencing, because that's kind of what their value proposition is, is to be right there in the home with time and engagement to suss out what's needed. Our community health workers extend the reach of our doctors, our nurses, our social workers, and our chaplains. And they're given a lot of room to figure out what makes sense for each person and their family. So it's a variable ratio of boots-on-the-ground to remote engagement. Dr. Bob: Right. And what's cool about it is each situation is unique, and it probably changes over time as well. And I think it's fascinating; the different disciplines have the option of doing it whichever way makes the most sense for the provider as well as for the patient and family. Dr. Fratkin: For sure. At an organizational level for organization people who might be listening, it makes such great sense to use the technologies to eliminate the inefficiencies of travel. What's interesting ... I think we've talked about this before, but when I started to do initial consultations with people, first encounters to carry the arc of ... Oh, there are 8 or 10 elements that I've gotten accustomed to, to feel complete within an initial encounter. When I did it in a clinic setting, or at home, it was a 90 to 120-minute encounter, easily, and really exhausting. But when I started doing those same initial encounters by video conferencing, over and over and over again, they came to a place of completion in about half the time. Dr. Bob: Why is that? Dr. Fratkin: I think it's because we are primates. I think that when you walk into a person's home, there's a whole lot of social primate behavior. There's a whole lot of framing that includes so much more than just the relational engagement, one-on-one, with another person. There's the environment; there's the space, there's how the person feels about inviting a person into their home. There's their level of attention to, let's say, housekeeping, or their level of anxiety about how much energy they have to do housekeeping. There are the dogs; there's the feeling like you're hosting a doctor in your home, or a social worker, whoever. There are the elements of ... If you're really, really sick, maybe you just didn't feel like taking a shower this morning, but the doctor's coming, so you have to put yourself through a whole preparation mode. All of those things are, frankly, in the way of a relationship of trust. They're complications. So I've come to accept that actually doing care virtually is better than real life. Dr. Bob: Fascinating. I find that fascinating, because I do some care, some visits remotely that way. The vast majority, 95+% of them are in patient's homes. So those social, primal, primate behaviors, to me, I find those really endearing. And I think it's almost like a friendship is developing at the same time as a doctor-patient relationship. But I'm not seeing the same volume as you, so I have the luxury of being able to do that at this stage of the game. Dr. Fratkin: I think that's true. I think there are some other things that are hidden in plain sight that relate to it. I'm sure you'll agree that one of the great challenges for hospice work, palliative care work, complex conditions, where people with huge loads of social challenges with sensitive, inspired, caring caregivers and healthcare professionals ... One of the greatest challenges to this work is learning about the nature of boundaries. It shows up in every hospice organization, every palliative care organization, in the hospital, where people get confused about where they begin and where the people that they're attending to begin, or where they begin and end. The I and Thou, to quote Martin Buber. That is very interesting and hard to teach. The way that most of us learn is that we screw it up. We get caught up with the other person's energies. We end up feeling we must keep them pleased. We don't necessarily ... Well, here's the teaching metaphor that I use. I'll see if I can create a visual of this for you and the listeners. Bob, do you remember way back when, in the dark ages, when you took Physics? Dr. Bob: Yes, vaguely. Dr. Fratkin: Vaguely. And do you remember studying the components of an electronic circuit? Dr. Bob: Even more vaguely. Dr. Fratkin: Okay. Things like resistors and transistors. Dr. Bob: Capacitors. Dr. Fratkin: Capacitors and stuff, right? Now, I bet you don't quite remember. Maybe you do. You're a smart guy. What a capacitor actually is. Do you remember what a capacitor is? Dr. Bob: In the interest of time, I'm gonna let you- Dr. Fratkin: That's good. Good call, Doc. A capacitor is this: it's two plates. Imagine tiny little squares. One of them's a positive, anode; the other is the cathode. I think that's right, a negative. And they sit inside of a circuit with a proximity to each other and a surface area. And the closer they are together, and the more surface area they have in association with each other, the higher the capacitance. Whatever the stuff of capacitance is that contributes to doing what's needed to an electronic circuit, which is way above my pay grade, is proportional to the surface area and the proximity. And I think that that's better than thinking about staying professionally or technically detached from the people we care for. What we've built is a system that constructs ... All I'm here to do is to give you the technically, medically best treatment. And I can't really allow myself to engage with the truth of what's going on for you as a human being, because that'll make my hands shake in the operating room. That'll make me not make the right choices on your behalf, or provide you with the right recommendations. And I think what that done is it's alienated healthcare professionals from the people that have medical challenges, right? Dr. Bob: Absolutely. Dr. Fratkin: Professional detachment is a 20th century, obsolete concept. My concept is that what we're called to do, especially for people who are feeling the threat to their very existence, is to open as much of ourselves as we can, create a greater surface area, and have the courage to maintain the closest proximity to their circumstances. To understand what's going on. But what happens with the capacitor ... If the two plates touch- Dr. Bob: Kaboom. Dr. Fratkin: Circuit's completed, and there's no capacitance. If you get caught up in people's shit, then you lose the ability to really create the magic that lives between those two plates in close proximity. In human encounters, I say that it's not capacitance that arises with proximity and willingness to be open. What arises is empathy. And empathy is the secret sauce of understanding how to be of service to another person. But if you're caught up in them, if their happiness or well-being becomes relevant to your own happiness or well-being, then you've completed the circuit, and you lose the capacity to have the perspective of being of service to them. It's a long and involved metaphor. Dr. Bob: Yeah, but it's a great one. It's a great one. I'm gonna- Dr. Fratkin: Here's an example. With your wife ... Or actually, with my wife, being with my wife, not you with my wife, but me with my wife ... We are intertwangled. And we sometimes struggle to have enough individuation to understand what each other needs. But we're necessarily, intimately one. One circuit, my family, right? And so I struggle with different kinds of things there than I do in work. It's not a matter of distance; it's a matter of entanglement. When I, for example, being asked to see a 56-year-old person with a brain tumor and two children, the distance I can get in proximity to him is greater than with an old woman who doesn't look anything like my own life. So I have a little bit more room. Others on my team may be able to step right into tending to that father. But for me, I have to create a little bit less proximity in order to make sure that I don't get entangled in the reality of what's going on for him because it so resonates with my own fears and worries about myself. So I can manage the proximity consciously, and by having a team that has a whole different set of concerns and triggers. There, we're intentionally talking about the distance we can tolerate. The best possible scenario is you're almost touching, but not quite. So we have to manage that consciously, and that is one of the ways that I train people around boundaries. This is a very circular way to talk about what I think one of the great advantages of video conferencing in a frame, is that it's literally a frame around the encounter, around the relationship and development. It's necessarily a division. It's necessarily a boundary. And while I can get very close and understand empathically what that person is having, I'm not sitting on their bed. I'm not reacting to their place on the political spectrum, which may be revealed by their red baseball caps or bookshelf. I'm not struggling with my own biases. They are in their most comfortable place as a person, not having had to prepare, go to a clinic, and deal with the waiting room and all the rest of it. They're just at home, as themselves. And I am similarly in a work environment that I've constructed, that I'm very comfortable with. And so, in some ways, the frame around which we ... within which we encounter and develop a relationship, has this necessarily built-in boundary. And so I think that's part of why, rather than two hours, it takes one hour to get to the same place. And that once people have the experience, it's much, much more comfortable for them than home invasions. Dr. Bob: Fascinating. What's interesting is, I'm assuming ... Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that this has all just been learned as you built this. The rationale and the initial inspiration for doing video conferencing, I'm assuming, was efficiency and being able to connect with people who are in more remote areas. I'm sure that you had very little awareness or understanding about all these additional benefits and advantages that you've come to, that you're just describing. Dr. Fratkin: Yeah. Well, just like I don't have any idea what benefits and nuances and subtleties I'm yet to discover over the next few years. But yeah, you're right. I mean, I started because I noticed that I have had this amazing smartphone and that I'm using it to text and to call and to talk to people on the phone and all the rest. But I realized that it was worth exploring, whether or not a synchronous audiovisual experience with two people in two different places, working on the same thing together, whether that would work. Because I have this crazy, amazing supercomputer in my pocket called an iPhone. So a lot of it was curiosity. I didn't really quite get the efficiencies and the network development until I started playing around with it. The way that I discovered it was, a friend of mine who works at Google told me about a project that came and went over about 11 months, called "Helpouts." And Google had this project where they were setting up a platform that included video conferencing, the "Hangouts" app, a webpage that you could tell your story about what expertise you wanted to share with other people, a scheduling function, a wallet function, and a messaging function, all on one little webpage. And if you had Chinese cooking that you wanted to teach, you could put your page up there, invite people to take a look, and if they wanted to schedule you, they could. And you'd charge them $15 for a half hour or whatever you wanted to charge. If you wanted to help people with their business plans or filling out their tax forms or whatever other expertise you might wanna share, you were out on the sort of open market, and direct consumer engagement would allow you to do it. So he asked me, would I wanna do it for palliative care. And I said, "Yeah, sure." So I spent two hours throwing up a little thing, and within a month, I had five people reach out to me. And the first person that did was a woman who was in a hospital in the Bronx, in terrible pain, from a metastatic cancer problem. And she was miserable and interested in talking. So we connected, and about five minutes, five seconds, the technology itself disappeared, and there I was, doing my thing. And within 30 or 40 minutes, we're both kind of in tears about the big picture of things. And it was really clear that some basic fundamentals of managing her symptoms would make a big difference. So I got her permission to reach out to the hospitalist tending to her. He was willing to talk to me. I told him, "Do x, y, and z." And the following day, she was discharged from the hospital. And I connected again, and she was so grateful for that advocacy and the difference that it made in her life. And I knew that this could so work. Dr. Bob: Yeah. What a beautiful story to spearhead and show you the impact. Dr. Fratkin: So it was more about just curiosity of what can I do with this crazy iPhone in my pocket? I hadn't really put it together that I was gonna build a social enterprise called Resolution Care at that point. I was just trying to figure out why are we not using this tool? And so I started using it, and it worked. Dr. Bob: That's great. So hey, I have a question. You and I, we're both palliative care physicians. We both specialize and are passionate about bringing people the best possible and holistic support to deal with their struggles and their challenges. And we know what works, right? And anyone who's involved in palliative care understands the value, sees the value on so many levels. On the human level, the financial level, the social level. Why are we having ... Why do you think we're having such a hard time getting traction and seeing palliative care become what it needs to become? Because you're working within the system. You're working with insurers, and you're working with the whole Medicare and insurance billing component, as well as contracting. What's your take on it? What's going on? I know it's a big question. And it's not a simple answer, but I really wanna hear your thoughts on it. Dr. Fratkin: Yeah, no. I think I would probably disagree with you. And only because- Dr. Bob: That's good. I'm happy to hear that, too. Dr. Fratkin: Only because this morning I happened to have a little bit of perspective. I don't know why that is. It might be just; I hit the number of cups of coffee just right. But I think what I would say is it's happening at an almost spectacular pace. It's amazing what's occurred for our society as it relates to our mortality in the last few years. That there's a transformative change in the public conversation around death and dying. I just happen to be pretty well-timed to get up on my surfboard and ride that wave, while also contributing to that wave through having conversations like this one. But let's go back to 2014. In 2014 in October, the Institute of Medicines Dying in America study, the second version was published. It was, I think, 10 or 11 years after they did it the first time, where they did a very deep dive into how people in America finished their lives. And what they basically said in that report was it sucks, and it hasn't changed in 12 years. It talked about how much bias there was and how little capacity there was for palliative care in cancer patients. But they also talked about the aging population, the demographic shifts that are intensifying this sort of tsunami, silver tsunami of people with a greater burden of illness, and the cost of health care, and the absence of focused and targeted support structures for people as they completed their life. And they said, "Why hasn't it changed for 12 years?" A month later, Atul Gawande published "Being Mortal," a blowout success that surprised even him, about bringing this conversation to "How do we die in America?" To a more narrative discussion. And you and I, in our field, we've been talking about these issues for 20 years, maybe longer. And I ask myself ... Well, actually, when Atul Gawande presented to the American Economy of Hospice and Palliative Medicine in 2015, he was interviewed by the Philadelphia Inquirer. And before his presentation, he says, "Gosh, Dr. Gawande, you have this blowout New York Times bestseller. Everybody's reading your book. What are you gonna tell all these hospice and palliative care doctors when you talk to them tomorrow?" And he said, "Well, I'm gonna say thank you. And I'm gonna ask the question, 'Why haven't they been listening to you?" And I was disappointed the next day when he actually didn't ask that question. He [inaudible 00:40:34] from his prepared remarks. But I found myself, for the next few days, thinking about that question [inaudible 00:40:42]. Why haven't they been listening to those of us that have been doing hospice or working with death and dying, working with families very closely, learning what brings value to them? Why haven't they been listening to us? And I think the answer is that we were talking to ourselves, talking to each other, thinking in terms of big health care delivery systems and academic papers and elevating our own careers through the accumulation of initials and prestige and all the rest. The academy of hospice and palliative medicine was academic, an ivory tower, and not really directing its attention outward. And I told Gawande, his voice was completely outward-directed, and it wasn't because he was such a great doctor. It was because he was a son. And being mortal, he's a clueless ears, nose, and throat surgeon who was getting it wrong. Then he, as a son, experienced the challenges that his father faced. And that transformed his perspective as a physician. So his story of conversion was related not to his role as world-famous, world-renowned surgeon. It was related to his role as a son. And so he ... And he's such a brilliant communicator and journalist. Now fast-forward three years later. He is selected by Berkshire Hathaway, Amazon, and whoever the heck, to lead an organization as a symbol of what's possible by thinking out of the box. And as a symbol, that his orientation is grounded, his career has exploded so that he is the leading, most exciting CEO in health care. And he's completely grounded in an understanding of what person-centered care must turn out to be. Dr. Bob: Yeah. That is exciting. That's an exciting development. Dr. Fratkin: And then there's BJ Miller and the traction that he got telling his story as a TED Talk. And then there's Jessica Zitter with her book, called "Extreme Measures." And then there's Shoshana Ungerleider, working in the Bay area, kind of behind-the-scenes, producing powerful documentary films, one of which, "Extremis," was nominated for an Academy Award. But these powerful experiences taking the public into places that we've been populating for decades. The intensive care unit, or the hospital-based palliative care program. And bringing people into that, that wouldn't otherwise look. Not to mention, the millennial spirit of younger people is that they don't blink. They don't avert their gaze at what's difficult. They tend to be drawn towards things that represented shadows for the previous generations. So I think there's a lot happening, that's happening very fast. And in three-and-a-half years, we built this organization kind of on the strength of that, and with the advantage of being an outsider like you, Bob. Dr. Bob: Well, I appreciate that perspective. And hearing you speak, it's inspiring. And it's true. Things are happening. There is a groundswell. I guess my perspective, A) I'm just, in general, a very impatient person. And B) I'm out here in the community speaking. And my of the talks are really focused on older groups, and I still have rooms that are filled with people who just don't really know about palliative care. And when there is palliative care in the community outpatient setting discussed, a lot of times, people have felt that it couldn't fulfill their needs. Because there's A) not enough providers, B) the offerings are not complete enough. And a lot of that has to do with the payment, the reimbursement models. So on the one hand, I do see that we are moving in the right direction, and that's exciting. And at the same time, I'm frustrated because I still ... And as I know, you see this as well. We still see people who are day-in and day-out, struggling, because their needs are not getting met. And we know what they need, and it's just not available to enough people today. Dr. Fratkin: No. It's super true, Bob. I mean, I feel exactly the same way. And for my own psychic well-being, there was a long time ago that I had to make the choice that I wasn't gonna focus on the unmet need or demand as the target of my attention. I was gonna focus on building capacity. And that I was gonna not worry about the fact that I could have burned myself out again trying to deal with one out of four people that I could get to in the hospital. I could have stayed inside of that, like most of us do, just trying to push that boulder up the hill. But what I had to do was to take a risk and say, "For those three or four people I don't get to, in their interest, not the same people but the next three or four or five or six or 12 or 250, it's gonna take some strategic thinking to build capacity." And there are so many sad stories. And as soon as I hear their names or hear some element of their stories, my heart starts to break and be frustrated with them that they don't get the service or don't know that there's a service that would help them. But my focus is not so much on those people; as it is, I know there are so many of them out there that my best efforts are to build capacity to manage and to set the tone of what palliative care capacity building looks like. We believe that it's not just whatever you could cobble together with crappy resources from whoever your institutional home is. Palliative care is best provided by a team of individuals who are well-supported in sustainable, soulful workplaces, but include a nursing perspective, a chaplaincy perspective, a social work perspective, and provider perspective. We are committed to that. So what we provide is actually pretty expensive. And the good news is, is that what we provide delivers to our health plan partners, a three to five x return on investment. Every dollar they spend turns into three to five that they saved. And they can measure those dollars. So they're interested in program development and building capacity for us. We think in the state of California, less than .5% of people who would benefit from palliative care support are getting it. If I focus on that 99.5 % of people who are suffering terribly- Dr. Bob: You'll be paralyzed, right? Dr. Fratkin: It breaks me down. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Dr. Fratkin: But I'm trying to get from .5 to 1. And I'm trying to do it by providing soulful, sustainable, meaningful experiences for my treasured colleagues. Nurses and all these people who, 100 years ago or 500 years ago or 5,000 years ago, would still be doing the same thing. They wouldn't be called nurses; they would be called neighbors. They would be called aunties. They would be called "the ones you call for help when you need it." It's been a part of human society forever, and we are burning out those people in a terrible way. So I'm just as loyal to creating incredible work experiences for those folks, as I am to building capacity to tend to the needs of sick folks, too. Dr. Bob: Yeah. And that's a beautiful thing. And that's how this will grow, sustain itself, by nurturing those who are serving others. Because this work, it's difficult, it's challenging, it is emotionally trying, and as I think we both experienced this, it is such ... It also fills us up in a way that nothing else does. And we don't throw the word "love" around enough. We had a meeting with my team a couple days ago. And when you try to really identify the essence of what we do, and really what we do is we love people, and then we take our skills and our experience and our wisdom, and we apply those in the way that we express our love for them. Dr. Fratkin: For sure. I was talking to a Native American fellow who lives up in the hills. And I was exploring with him his relationship to tribe and culture. And I'm not sure how we got there, and I wish I could remember the pronunciation of the word, but I won't massacre it. But he was explaining to me that there's a word that's being used by the tribe and others that kind of means "thank you," but it's being used in the "thank you" way. In a very, sort of, superficial way. But he said that the word itself is very much more specific. It's the kind of thank you or gratitude that's offered to someone who showed up to meet a need you had. If you're old and someone brings you food, it's the thank you for that. If your roof is leaking, but you can't fix it or afford it, and the guys hop in the truck and start throwing shingles on your roof, it's the thank you for that. It's the thank you for showing up and meeting a need for someone in your community. It's not "Thanks." It's deeper than that. And the presence that we bring, the willingness to love while preserving boundary, the willingness to respect the otherness of these people that we care for. And the willingness to drink a lot of coffee and build out a system to create beautiful jobs and keep the vision as clean and clear as possible. It's the thank you I feel from the community, even if I don't hear it said. I'm so proud of what this team has done for so many people we've touched. 1100, 1200 people who wouldn't otherwise have gotten this care. And that means there are 5-10,000 people who we didn't touch. I'm sad about that, but I'm proud of the work that this incredible team has done over these last three years with very little resource and a ton of coffee. Dr. Bob: Yeah. And a ton of passion and a ton of- Dr. Fratkin: Love. Dr. Bob: Love and determination. And proud you should be, my friend. And I'm excited to continue to follow your progress and the progress of Resolution Care and the impact that you're having. And your model is a model that I'm sure many will want to learn and try to apply in their communities. So before we sign off, I would love for the listeners to go and check out your website. That's resolutioncare.com. And in addition, there's a foundation and an opportunity to help support this amazing, so, so needed care. So you have a 501C3, I understand. Dr. Fratkin: It's called Resolution Care Institute, and there's a page on our website. And if people have a few dollars, they wanna donate, that's absolutely welcome. Yeah. And also, I guess I would ask them, too ... We create maybe once or twice a month what I consider to be pretty high-valued content in a newsletter. And I would love to build the community, so on the website, all you have to do is put in your name and email address, and we'll send you stuff. And if you don't think it has value, you just unsubscribe to it. But I suspect you'll enjoy being a part of our community. We tend to ... We're trying to figure out how to tell stories about the impact of the work that we're doing while getting ourselves out of the way. Just letting people tell their own stories. So we've done that with some videos, and we've done that with some blog posts and other newsletters. And the response we get is favorable. So I'd really like to build that community out if people are inclined. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Awesome. Well, we'll fully try to support that, and to everyone's benefit. And we'll also have the links for Michael's site and the ways to connect with him on our website, integratedmdcare.com. Michael, thank you. You're so passionate, articulate. I could listen to you all day, describing your views and your excitement about what you're doing. And I would love to try to connect again. And I know that there are several things that we wanted to touch on that we didn't have time to, but hopefully- Dr. Fratkin: I'm happy to do this anytime, Bob. This is how we're making an impact, is by telling the truth and sharing that.