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2 episodes with ryan do
We're vengeance! Welcome to another episode of Dial-Up Movie Club! This week we're joined by voice actor Ryan Do to discuss the critically acclaimed tale of The Batman! Find out if after a year since it's release whether the boys will shine the signal for more or leave it to die in crime alley!
Jason talks to Ryan George, CMO of Docupace. It is a platform for paperless tools basically designed to automate your back office or the financial advisors back office that, eliminate a lot of the heavy lifting and pain that we go through daily.Episode Highlights:03:07: Ryan is working with and working for people who are sometimes in the background of the business, whether it's connecting to the CRM and having a wireframe into that business or another level of deep integration.05:56: As per Ryan, in the early 2000s, they sort of had the mainframe systems where everything was a locked technology ecosystem, and in terms of what it was able to do and what happened, that led to this explosion of innovation.11:01: As per Ryan industry average is around between 25 to 27% of the NIGO rate for large enterprises, which sounds extremely high because it is on Docupace, it's below 3% for their clients.12:00: As per Ryan, APIs are a big part of their integrations and a big part of their systems. 18:26 Ryan discusses how the pandemic drove growth in digital data gathering.24:37: Sometimes, your clients will lead you down the path to destruction. It's a matter of knowing where to draw the line and saying this is what's good for us.28:01: As per Ryan, there is a need to pivot, and we need to change things in order to get to where we are trying to do what we are trying to move, move faster, be more agile, be more innovative, serve customers in a different way.30:42: As per Ryan, they are not at the level of creativity to where people are coming up with creative solutions to solve because they don't know what the problem is yet.3 Key Points:Ryan shares a case study of someone he has dealt with who didn't have the interconnectivity, what kind of experience change they see within their company, and what type of productivity gains they get from this.Docupace provides tracking in the dashboards where if paperwork gets submitted, somebody must call and say, hey, where's Joe and sell his application.Ryan shares what are the new features of Docupace that they are going to implement in the coming years.Tweetable Quotes:"We want to be a cohesive glue that helps connect your financial planning software, custodian, and systems together as you integrate throughout the technology stack that you have at your firm." – Ryan"Often, it's not the technology, it's the humans that become the inefficiency in the system, and we are trying to find that." - Ryan"Do you have the people in management or middle management with the vision for how this all comes together, which is a is and it's a very difficult thing to fill because it's a Venn diagram." - Jason"People who understand the digital realm as to what's possible and being able to tie that all together. Those are the single most valuable people in our enterprises these days." - Jason"There are so many uses for being able for one person to get data from another person, and that is never going to go away in this business." - RyanResources Mentioned:Facebook – Jason Pereira's FacebookLinkedIn – Jason Pereira's LinkedInLinkedIn - Ryan George Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
What We're Playing Colby: Red Dead Redemption 2, Flynn Son of Crimson Cliff: Psychonauts 2, Moonglow Bay Dylan: Back 4 Blood Extra Life https://bytemepodcast.com/extralife/ News I'm Sure This WIll Fix Things Luigi is Getting His Own Lego Set If You Own a PC You May Never Have to Buy a Playstation Again Stadia is Testing Time-Limited Demos You Can Play Geforce Now On Xbox Questions DA VINSTER (Vinny): Is there any game franchise that you wish had a Games as a Service? For Example, a God of War in a Destiny 2 kind of game. Misshappychildhood: Is it dumb to buy a Nintendo Switch for my family at this point in time? ShadoughX (Josh): What makes a good video game-based show or movie? *monotone screaming*: What are some of your favorite early 2000's shooters? Primefan: Is there any Xbox exclusive game that you think is your favorite? Also, what are your thoughts on Battlefield 2042 ? Ryan: Do you have a favorite character from some smaller indie games? Tr1pletrouble88: Favorite carnival or pier game? Mansocks: C64: what was your favorite game soundtrack.. and why was it Commando.. and how HARD did that game go on music Cheap/Free Games Epic Games Aven Colony Games with Gold Moving Out ($24.99 ERP): Available November 1 to 30 Kingdom Two Crowns ($19.99 ERP): Available November 16 to December 15 Rocket Knight ($14.99 ERP): Available November 1 to 15 Lego Batman 2 DC Super Heroes ($19.99 ERP): Available November 16 to 30 Game Pass Minecraft: Java and Bedrock Editions (PC) – November 2 Unpacking (Cloud, Console, and PC) ID@Xbox – November 2 It Takes Two (Cloud, Console, PC) EA Play – November 4 Kill It with Fire (Cloud, Console, and PC) ID@Xbox – November 4 Football Manager 2022 (PC) – November 9 Football Manager 2022: Xbox Edition (Cloud, Console, and PC) – November 9 Forza Horizon 5 (Cloud, Console, and PC) – November 9 Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas – The Definitive Edition (Console) – November 11 One Step from Eden (Console and PC) ID@Xbox – November 11 One Step from Eden combines deck-building and real-time action with rogue-like MS Flight Sim: Game of the Year Edition - November 18 Halo Infinite (Console, PC) - December 8 Among Us (Console) Dec. 14 Playstation Plus Knockout City | PS5 & PS4 First Class Trouble** | PS5 &PS4 Kingdoms of Amalur: Re-Reckoning | PS4 The Persistence | PS VR*** The Walking Dead: Saints & Sinners – Standard Edition | PS VR*** Until You Fall | PS VR*** Prime Gaming Control Ultimate Edition Rise of the Tomb Raider Dragon Age: Inquisition on Origin Rogue Heroes: Ruins of Tasos Liberated BAFL - Brakes Are For Losers Demon Hunter 2: New Chapter Secret Files: Sam Peters Puzzle Agent 2 Troll Corner God I Hate This Ubisoft is investing in crypto apparently Patreon John Tippins Sean Palmer Austin Palmer Alan Schulte Joe Cole Jr. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/byte-me-podcast/message
Ryan Do and Vyvy Nguyen charm listeners in a story of star-crossed lovers and mouthwatering foods, told in fast-paced alternating first-person chapters. Host Jo Reed and AudioFile’s Emily Connelly discuss this sweet YA romance about two teens who fall for each other despite their family’s long-running rivalries. Bao Nguyen waits tables in his family’s Vietnamese restaurant, and Do conveys his anxieties about coasting without any real focus in school or out. When he has a chance encounter with Linh Mai, the daughter of his parents’ rivals, sparks fly. Nguyen’s compelling narration of Linh ensures that listeners hear the joys and fears she feels over her secret friendship--and relationship--with Bao. Both narrators convey the thrills of first love and the teens’ loyalty to their families and community. Published by Simon & Schuster Audio Find more audiobook recommendations at audiofilemagazine.com Support for AudioFile’s Behind the Mic comes from Page Chaser, www.pagechaser.com, a book loving community that celebrates uplifting books with regular book sweepstakes, book clubs, great book deals, and much more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Psychology plays an important part in business no matter what business you’re in or how you’re getting sales. The best tactics to convince us to spend money are the ones we’re not aware of. Retail stores have been using music, scents, and merchandising to get us to spend more money for decades if not centuries. Those tactics online now have a name and its Dark Patterns. Jon explain just what Dark Patterns are and why your brand should avoid using them. Read more about Dark Patterns: https://thegood.com/insights/dark-pattern-ecommerce-ux-design/ Transcription: Ryan: Jon, psychology plays an important part in business, no matter what business you're in and how you're getting the sales. Now, the best tactics to convince us to spend money are the ones we're not really aware of. And retail has been doing this probably for hundreds of years, even though I haven't been involved in it, using music's sense merchandising of how they put products on the shelves to get us to spend more money. And all of that research and data is out there for the taking, but I would venture a guess that most of the public is unaware of actually what's happening in those retail environments to commit us to spend money. When it comes to e-Commerce though, and the way our economy is moving to transacting online, I'm finding a lot of these "psychology tactics" are much more in your face, or at least I'm more aware of them. And maybe it's because I'm spending too much time in front of my computer talking to e-Commerce business owners and looking at e-Commerce sites. But I see it all the time, and a lot of times it just bugs me and you have a term for it called dark patterns. And that's a new term to me, but probably not to you because you work in the CRO world, but you recently mentioned it on LinkedIn. And I wanted to learn more about it because it fascinates me, the intricacies of psychology because studying sales my whole life and now having a retail store with my wife, it's just always there. And I think most of them I see online are garbage, some plugins on Shopify sites that maybe should never have been put on in the first place, but I want to learn about dark patterns. And I learned from one of the best in the world, who should be you. Jon: Awesome. Ryan: It sounds evil, but I just want to know more. How do we use our powers for good? Jon: I'm looking forward to it. Ryan: Jon, why don't you just take a moment and give me a high level of what do you mean when you say dark patterns when it comes to e-Commerce and e-Commerce sites? Jon: So when I talk about dark patterns, what I'm talking about is similar to, if you think about hacking and in a way that there's white hat and black hat, right. And black hat hacking is when you're doing something intentionally for a negative outcome, it might be a benefit to somebody like it's going to be benefits to the hacker, but you're hurting somebody in that process or you're creating a problem in that process. Where a white hat hacker is really just trying to help. They're trying to do things for positive. Maybe they're looking for bugs, but they're going to report them to the software maker before they do anything to exploit it. So you think about that. Exploitation is really what comes in here to my head when I think about this more than anything else. So, what we're talking about here today is really when an e-Commerce store makes something difficult because they want to influence the outcome that they're trying to do. So whether that's something through psychology, you talked about in a retail environment, the type of music they play in the background that calms people down, or how they price, where they make things $2 and 99 cents instead of $3, right? You start thinking about all these psychology tricks that come at play well in e-Commerce there's all those psychology tricks. Plus there are ways to actually increase barriers intentionally on a website so that the consumer can't take the action that they're trying to take, instead, you've made it more difficult. Some examples of this really easy one, an email pop-up pops up when you come to the site to sign up for email lists and there's no way to close it. So the only way you can get back to what you were trying to do is to give them your email address, or I like to call this negative intent shaming. So where the button in that pop-up says something like, no, I don't like discounts or I don't like saving money, right? There's all these types of dark patterns. And it can go even more, really sinister and you make it just impossible to unsubscribe without calling, right? So for years, and it may still be this way, but Skype was an amazing case study of this, where they would claim massive retention rates, but their user rate was super low and usage. And the only reason they had retention rates that were so impressive is because the only way to actually cancel and delete your Skype account was to call a phone number in the U.S. So, if you're an international user where Skype was way more prevalent than in the States, you had to call international, talk to somebody in English only, and say, I need to cancel my Skype account. Please delete it from your servers. Why won't you just do that when a click of a button? So this is a good example of a dark pattern where the brand really valued retention, so they made it near impossible, right up, maybe to that legal limit. And one of the things you saw on LinkedIn was I had posted to an article it had run in what's called The Hustle, which is a great entrepreneur email. If you're no signed up for a free email, it comes out every morning, just around entrepreneurship and the tech industry and whatnot. And they were saying that there's new legislation coming in that is all about making these dark patterns illegal. And that most things need to be self-service, and it shouldn't be a challenge. So that's really where I was going with this was not only is this just bad to do and lead to a horrible brand image in the longterm, but it's also going to become illegal fairly soon. And I hope it's sooner than later, I have my doubts that would happen anytime in the near future, but I hope it's sooner than later. Ryan: So could you also bundle in to that broad, I guess I would probably try to broaden dark patterns a little bit and say it also includes what people think is helping from a psychological perspective, but it's actually just stupid. Well, one of my, I guess, favorite, least favorite was the one that I noticed the most is there's a plug-in on a lot of sites that says, Oh, little Jimmy just bought the pink t-shirt and Oh, look over here, Susie just bought this vase. And Oh, people are buying all over on the site and I can go to some sites and I've seen maybe the analytics behind the scenes and maybe some of my audit. And I know for a fact, there's no way that five people just bought something in the 30 seconds I was on their site. Jon: That's exactly it. Fake social proof is a great example of this, right? So it's having a random number of view, people are viewing this product right now, having X number of people who just bought this product from wherever in the world. And consumers always distrust that now, because it's been abused. Right. But it's a dark pattern because what are they trying to do? They're trying to influence your psychology around social proof and having fear of missing out. And you want what everyone else wants and, Oh, well, if so-and-so just bought that product, then it's probably legit and I should buy it too. And we see this more and more, a really good example is well, and we're getting through a lot of good examples. I could go on for days for examples, but another great example is a fake countdown timer, right? They're introducing scarcity, but it's false scarcity. What I mean by that is sign up within the next five minutes and we'll give you something or okay, we've talked about this in other shows, we did a discounting episode, not too long ago. And you were talking about how your wife just leaves products in the cart, abandons the cart, waits 24 hours and knows there's the discount email coming. You know that that clock is no good. Okay. Reminds me of the old TV commercials call within the next five minutes and you get this free bonus. They have no idea when that commercial is going to run, down to the minute, they don't know. And if you think about it, especially when you see these on news stations, right? News stations have somewhat of a cadence for ad timing, but it's never down to the second, to down to the minute. So there's no way you could start a clock and say in five minutes, right? I guarantee you, if you called them in a week, they'd give you that same price. And it's the exact same thing happening here where there's a whole bunch of these dark patterns that are playing on people's psychology or making it really complicated for them to actually take an action they want to do in order to benefit the brand. Ryan: So what we're not talking about though, is actually having your inventory show on the siting. I actually only have three of these left because Amazon, I see doing that. And based on some of my experience in Amazon, on my brands, I feel the trust that at this point they might change, but that's not what I'm talking about as far as scarcity. Jon: No. Ryan: Okay. It's the manipulation of faking scarcity or faking a countdown timer. Jon: Yes, exactly. Now, if you're just always going to say that there's only three of these left, in order to have scarcity when none exists, then that's a dark pattern. But if you're actually trying to help the consumer, get the product they want and know that, Hey, if you don't buy it, now you're going to have to wait for the next batch to come in. And that could be six weeks or whatever. Right. Then I would put that under the white hat, right. You're really trying to help people and you're giving them more information to make a decision. And that's why this is such an interesting topic. How do you prove what's dark and what's not? Right. If you look at a brand, you mentioned, well, I've had experiences with Amazon. I trust that based on my experiences there. But if you just saw that on some random new e-Comm site that you've never been to before, how do you trust that for sure. How do you know for sure that, that's the reality? Ryan: I personally would have trouble with that. Just knowing as much as I do about e-Comm. Jon: Yeah. You've been burned before, right. There was a great Twitter thread, a few weeks back. It was what is one thing about industry that you work in that the general public doesn't know? And this falls under for e-Commerce that I saw somebody posted, well, I run an e-Commerce brand. And we tell people our products are selling out, when they're not. I was like, okay, well, there you go. That's a dark pattern, right? Ryan: Yeah. Happens often. Ryan: Obviously we don't like them. And I would believe they're hurting brands to a degree, but I bet you probably have some data about how does some of these products that you've seen actually do opposite of what this business owner probably intended for it to do, this countdown timer or, Hey, everybody's buying this all over the world. You need to buy now. Jon: Right. Ryan: Do you see it actually hurting the conversion rate? Jon: Well, I will tell you this, first of all, does it work for the initial conversion? Sometimes, perhaps, right? It might, probably not as well as people think, because if you have to get to that level to get people to buy, you probably have other systemic issues that you need to solve. A product issue, a pricing issue, a brand trust issue, right? There's a lot of other things that you should work on solving instead of trying to take the shortcut. So let's say you get that original purchase, right. Then the person comes back to buy again and they notice that, okay, well now I've got another countdown timer, or maybe it happens where like your wife, you wait that timer out every time. And you know, it's not happy now you trust that brand a little less, right? So I would say that on the first purchase, it might work, but for the longer term customer lifetime value growth, and maybe a brand perception angle, no, it's not going to work. I argue that it's going to hurt you more in the longterm. Ryan: Yeah, I guess an argument could be made based on that. But if you only get one sale ever you're selling mattresses, you don't care if they ever come back. Jon: Boom. That's a great example, right? A mattress store, you go to any mattress store. They're always having the best sale ever, always. And you walk into a mattress store, I guarantee you, you're not going to pay the price that's listed there. You can talk them down because they're going to give you a price that is just a random price. And you're going to be able to go in and just say, okay, well, last week it was this other price or, Hey, well, what if I give you a $100 less? And they're probably be like, okay. Yeah, that's true. If the goal is to get that first sale and that's it at all costs, and you're never going to sell to them again. And you just don't care about your brand over the longer term of, with that customer or even your reputation perhaps. Then I would argue sure. Have at it. Still, not ethical or moral in my point of view. But if you don't want to grow a sustainable brand and revenue, then have at it. Ryan: Yeah. And I would argue though, that even if that is unethical, not great, your business won't be around anyway, because people are going to see through it more and more, I think. And then the marketing costs of getting traffic to your site, necessitates at this point, a lifetime value on a customer. Jon: Right. Ryan: If you're not playing the lifetime value game in e-Commerce, I don't think you're going to be hearing from me and Jon in a couple of years. Because you won't be in commerce at the end of the day. You've got to have that. No matter if you're a retailer or if you're a brand that's selling through retailers and on your own site, you have to have a plan for selling to that customer multiple times in the future. Jon: Right, right. Ryan: Building trust, obviously we focus on that on both of our ends of marketing constantly and dark patterns can interrupt that even if it's short-term creates commercial rate increase, but are there some areas in this that you say are valuable on both of those counts? Like increases conversion rates and while some people might think this is maybe in that space, it actually does good as far as building the lifetime value as well. Jon: Well, I would say that if your intent is to put up a barrier for the consumer, that there's no positive, they can come of that in my point of view, right? People are at your site because they're there to complete a task, right. They think that your product or service can help them complete that task. And now if you are trying to actively prevent them from completing the task, they want to complete only because you want them to complete the tasks you want them to do. There's no positive that's going to come out of that. Right. For instance, you're in a checkout and the default check is yes, subscribe email list, right. How many times do people just leave that checked, right. Or you use confusing language check here to not receive our emails lists each week. Ryan: I love that example of yours. Like, wait, what do I... Is it checked? Jon: Exactly. Yeah. All of that stuff is where I end up getting really, really frustrated. And when I see that stuff often, quite honestly, I choose not to work with that brand. I just say we're not a good fit because our mission to remove all of these bad online experiences is not going to be further long by working with them because they don't really want to help the consumer. Right. Maybe it's a mistake if there's one of them or maybe they got some bad advice at some point, if it's just one thing that's happening, or they using an app that makes it too easy to do that. Like one of those purchase apps you were talking about that come up out of the corner and telling you that somebody purchased recently, but they didn't. But I would say, at that point there's really not anything I can do to change the ethics of that company. And that's, I think what this really comes down to. And there's too many brands out there that want to help consumers and do the right thing that they don't... We don't need to work with the brands who are only just trying to use psychology to trick people into purchasing. Ryan: Yeah. I think both of us have been as long enough. We know there's a lot of people in our industry that loves selling some snake oil and there are a lot of them giving bad advice and I come across constantly. So that's why my mission's probably not as holistic or maybe pretty as yours. I'll say mine is like, I just want to put all my competitors out of business that are selling snake oil and then sell [crosstalk 00:17:04] behind me. Jon: Exactly. Ryan: Save e-Comm brands from stupid advice. Jon: Hey, that's a good moral lesson in that though. Right? Just making it happen. Right. And I think the reality is, is you guys have won it Logical Position, and you've gotten as big as you have because of the way you treat people and handle these accounts. Right. You would never be serving 6,000 clients if you tried all these tricks because there would be a handful of people out there who would be okay with it. But the vast majority of brands are good. And I wholeheartedly believe that, but unfortunately, what do they say? That one bad Apple spoils the whole bunch. Is that the phrase? Ryan: Yeah. At least it does on my phone. Jon: Yeah. I've been apple picking once when I was a kid maybe, but I can't claim to have much farm experience. Ryan: So, just as in most things in business, as long as you filter through some type of lens that says, is this something I would be comfortable with my mom getting or being presented with like, Hey, if I'm lying that somebody is checking out and there's an app for that. Why on earth would it make sense for me to put it on there? If I know that, Hey, this might convince my mom to buy something she doesn't need and be a good human at the end of the day. If you do that as a business owner with an e-Comm site, you're not going to be putting these things on there to do this. And hopefully we're going to help you put your competitors out of business who are trying to do those things. Jon: Well, I think that's a great lens to put this through the mom test, right. Be thinking about this. If you are doing something that you wouldn't want done to your mom. Then don't do it. Right. And I think that, that's a really good way to look at this. If it would trick your mom into doing something that she really didn't want to do, then just get rid of it. Would you want your mom automatically opting into this privacy statement or would you want your mom to automatically get these emails? And you know she'd be frustrated if she just wants to purchase a product. And all of a sudden was getting marketing emails every day. Or if she got tricked into doing an upsell on a product, because it was default added to the cart, the highest, most expensive shipping option was chosen when there were way cheaper options. There's a lot of things like that that happen all the time. And the problem is, it's really something that would frustrate most people. But I think I see it more than probably the casual online shopper, but I also have [inaudible 00:19:40] and obligation to resolve those problems when I see them as much as possible. Ryan: Yeah. And if you do convert optimization, right, you don't need them. Jon: Right. Ryan: And that's the crazy thing. You don't need gimmicks, if you've got a solid business, good products, and you've worked with Jon, or if you're not quite to Jon's level, you're doing just good things at the end of the day. And I think the example of shipping is a phenomenal one that I didn't even think about until you said it that as a business owner, you're like, Hey, shipping, we make margin on this shipping or not this shipping. And we have free shipping here or not, but you can just check this one because it just makes sense maybe from a business perspective where is, we need more margin here because we're giving it up here. But at the end of the day, if you just do what is right, that you would want done to you, you've got that potential for customer lifetime value. Jon: Right. Ryan: And that's where your profit can come from. Jon: Yeah. I really like your approach of, if you've wouldn't do it to your mom, don't do it on your set. I think that's great. I wholeheartedly believe in that. And I think all of these things would fall under that. Right. Would you really want to do face fake scarcity and make your mom believe there's only one item left when there's not? Ryan: I'll tell you your mom, she's an idiot that she doesn't want to save money. I know my mom wants to save money, believe me. I'm not going to call her an idiot for not- Jon: Exactly. She doesn't want your emails. That's why she's clicking no. But... Ryan: Yep. Jon: Yeah. Well, I think this has been great conversation though. Ryan: Yeah. Me too. So is there anything anybody needs to know that we haven't touched on when it comes to dark patterns or things you can or might do to your site even by accident that you just want to be aware of? Jon: Yeah. I would think the first thing you should do when you add any app from the Shopify app store or any of those is give it a good look. Don't just use it because you see a competitor using it. Don't just assume they have positive intent here, go install it and then really dig in. Do some user testing on it, get understanding from consumers. Is it really being helpful for them or is it causing a another barrier in their road to conversion? And if it is ask yourself, am I putting up that barrier because it's better for me, or am I putting up that barrier unnecessarily? And it's actually making it hard for them to complete the purchase, which is what you ultimately want. And I have yet to hear an example that fits into both of those. Again, it's either black or white, it's either white hat or black hat, and there's really nothing in between that I can find. And if somebody listening to this has a great example of that. Please let me know. I would love to have some good examples of that. Ryan: Put it on LinkedIn, share it with Jon, so we can all see. Jon: Yeah. Tag Ryan and I. Ryan: Well, thanks Jon. I appreciate you giving me an education and anybody else's listening for that because it's very helpful. Jon: Awesome. Thanks Ryan. Appreciate the conversation. Ryan: Thank you.
To celebrate the 100th WanderLearn episode, I'm thrilled to announce that we are close to passing 100,000 cumulative downloads! This 100th episode is dedicated to my Patrons! Watch it on YouTube: https://youtu.be/DdJN3xQ-Mz8 Ask Me Anything! I answer your questions, such as: Tamy, who wrote: "I had no idea Swaziland had changed its name to eSwatini. Do you have a point of reference as to why or were you aware of it?" Ryan: "Do you have book recommendations?" I start by recommending The Body by Bill Bryson. If you've read, "A History of Nearly Everything" (another good book), then you'll like his "Body" book. It'll keep you busy for a while - it's big. I've heard great things about "The Gates of Fire" - it's on my list. Lastly, I'm a huge space fan - yeah, I like to travel. I'm nearly done reading this fun book by Zubrin.amzn.to/3eKIQ4c Another person wrote: Hey Francis, hope all is well. I was wondering how do you prepare/train for mountain climbling/hiking? I am a overweight, done mostly day hikes( highest point I have reached is 8,750'). I was strolling through youtube and saw Tour de mont blanc which I though was really nice but not sure about how to handle these kinds of journeys since they seem pretty strenous for a beginner. Ive been trying to do lifestyle modifications( Diet/exercise), wondering if you have any tips/thoughts. Camino primitivo is on my list as well. Do you do any workouts/preparation(physically) before you go for your treks/climbs? YIDA wrote: I look forward to reading more chapters of the Unseen Africa. From your experiences, how safe would major African cities be for a Western tourist to wander around in unescorted? Most guides say things like never walk around Kinshasa or Nairobi at night alone. From most of the travel literature I've read, it advises tourists to soak in the vibe and atmosphere of the people, streets and markets rather than go on a sightseeing tour of landmarks, galleries, and museums like you do in Europe. The tourism formula of stopping at multiple sites and attractions doesn't work for most African cities. Henry wrote: My name is Henry Ensley, I’m graduating from college this month and I have a couple of questions regarding Africa. I already have a trip planned and booked to 7 European nations this summer, but, I have some questions about Africa. In my life, I hope to visit all the countries in Europe and Africa, but my knowledge about the two is more heavily favored towards Europe for whatever reason. With that being said, what are your 5-10 most favorite destinations in Africa? Not to get too specific but as you like to say they destinations should be “beyond the beaten path”. Without mentioning common destinations like the Marrakesh Market in Morocco, the pyramids in Egypt, Kenya, etc. I want to know your favorite destinations in Africa, the countries that some people may not even know exist. Thank you. 1. Mauritius2. Namibia3. Rwanda4. Mauritania6. Algeria7. Lesotho8. Cameroon9. Sudan More info You can post comments, ask questions, and sign up for my newsletter at http://wanderlearn.com. If you like this podcast, subscribe and share! On social media, my username is always ftapon. Follow me on: http://facebook.com/ftapon http://twitter.com/ftapon http://youtube.com/user/ftapon http://pinterest.com/ftapon http://tumblr.com/ftapon My Patrons sponsored this show! Claim your monthly reward by becoming a patron at http://Patreon.com/FTapon Rewards start at just $2/month! If you prefer to do a one-time contribution, you can send it to my PayPal at FT@FrancisTapon.com If you prefer giving me Bitcoin, then please send BTC to my tip jar: 3EiSBC2bv2bYtYEXAKTkgqZohjF27DGjnV
Welcome back to our weekend Cabral HouseCall shows! This is where we answer our community's wellness, weight loss, and anti-aging questions to help people get back on track! Check out today's questions: Dean: Hi Dr Cabral, what are your thoughts on Viagra? Will it affect the stomach or hormones over the short term? I am working on the underlying issue but until then do you think it is ok to use without too many negative side effects on the stomach or hormones? I am not worried about my heart Valeria: Hi dr.cabral, I read in your book that I suggest only 1-2 servings of tofu a week due to the phytoestrogens. However, do you have a recommended limit to vital wheat gluten a week given its used as a popular high protein alternative to meat? Even if one isnt gluten intolerant. Ryan: Do you know of the old Rice-Fruit diet experiment, and other such high carb, low fat diet studies on diabetes and insulin sensitivity? Seems to turn conventional wisdom on its head when it comes to blood sugar control. More carbs and less fat seems to enhance insulin sensitivity. Thoughts on dietary fat vs. carbs for insulin resistance/sensitivity? Samantha: Hi Dr. Cabral, Thank you for all that you do! I had amazing success with the first phase of your Fatlossity system, I felt energized, lost 2 pounds every week, had even energy and finally overcame my sugar addiction with ease. However, during the second phase when I added berries into my smoothie my sugar cravings came back with vengeance. I'm sad to say that I gained some weight back due to mindless eating and giving into my cravings. My stress levels are low (I'm a yoga and meditation instructor and am taking two months off to travel soon so my mind and heart feel happy).Does this happen when reintroducing fruit or starches after a hiatus? And what should my next move be, to resume phase one or two of Fatlossity? Perhaps a Detox instead? I feel defeated and would love any advice. Thank you, Samantha Jim: I was wondering if the FloraFilm on Equilibrium nutrition can be taken to remove bio films from bacteria in the mouth. Specifically for bacterial periodontal disease to remove high risk pathogens. Could the capsules be opened and swished orally during oil pulling? What suggestions do you have to remove the bacteria aside from antibiotics? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks. Dani: Hey Dr. Cabral. Great show as always. I'm not certain if this is exactly in your filed of expertise but is there any way to remove or minimise nasolabial lines and discolourations in a safe, non surgical way? Since listening your program I avoid using facial products with parabens, dyes, red 3,green,yellow,blue,titanium dioxide etc because of the potential rain barrel overflow. Is there any help you can recommend for anti-aging for those in mid 30's or is it something we must accept? 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Jon outlines what businesses should be paying attention to as they begin the CRO process, in order to make sure your commerce website's revenue continues to grow over time. TRANSCRIPT RYAN GARROW: Jon, usually my goals are around revenue, new clients, employees, you name it, but as a sub-point of some of my goals I find myself penciling in a line that's usually says something around improve website. Usually, when I'm penciling that in, in my head, I'm not articulating it correctly, but in my head, I want to increase the conversions with the traffic I already have, because I've already got some traffic going to these sites. I just want to get more out of it, how to squeeze this lemon a little harder and get more juice out of it, but given the dynamic nature of conversion rates based on traffic type seasonality, I've struggled with even figuring out how am I supposed to be setting a goal around my conversion rates other than just better. I want it to be better. It's never going to be good enough, everything make me happy that we've got this conversion rate, I just need to be better. As an expert in this field and probably the smartest person I've ever come across in the conversion rate space, [chuckles] should I even be setting goals around conversion rates, or should it be like am I going about it in the wrong way? JON MACDONALD: First of all, Ryan, I appreciate this topic. I think it is timely and it is something that a lot of people I talk to on a daily basis struggle with. The reality is, what gets measured gets improved. There should be some goals here, and you do need some data to make data back decisions about how to improve your site. With that in mind, I think it's only helpful to really be thinking about goals, but around conversion optimization improvement there. Yes, there's tons of goals you should be thinking about, but just better is probably not going to get it done because where do you start from that? RYAN: [chuckles] Good point. I always keep putting it on there, and I don't actually have anything around it. [laughter] Probably not the way I should be going about this. JON: One of the things to be thinking about here is that you really want to break that down a little more. I would think about it in terms of are you looking to increase average order value? Are you looking to increase the amount of people getting to a particular point in the site? A conversion rate, let's just start there. Overall, most people think it's just converting the amount of visitors into buyers, and overall, yes, that's true, but there's so much more underneath that. Think about, do you want to get people from a landing page to the next step in the funnel, and then from there to a product page and then adding to cart? Then once they're in cart to actually completing that process, and then what even happens after that? How do you get them to come back in order again? You really want to be thinking about all of the different steps that go into this and then just look at improving each of those steps. That is what is going to bring you sustainable growth and conversions as opposed to just saying, okay, I really need to just get more people to buy. We all want that, but unless you're improving every single step of the process that our consumers going through on your site, you're not going to see much of a sustainable growth there. RYAN: Got it. There's a lot in that statement from you. As an econ business owner myself, my goal is, click-buy. My thoughts around conversion rate is, all right, well, if I change my button from pink to blue, and test that A/B, one of those colors is going to cause people to buy more, but you're saying, yes, you could probably do that, but it's probably not a great good idea. You should probably start thinking about how people are getting down to that product page or getting into the shopping cart experience. Try to not lose people on the way and that would probably be and you can fix my verbiage, maybe there's a better way to starting your conversion optimization process, rather than just looking at the Add to Cart button. JON: Right. I think you brought up something that you've heard me rail on 100 times probably. Maybe that why it's in your mind. RYAN: Yes, just maybe. [laughs] JON: Is the button color issue. Here's the thing, changing a button color are very unlikely to do much for your site, but if you go online, and you Google conversion rate optimization, one of the first things that comes up is a case study around a brand that somebody wrote this article. It's been handful of years, now it's been out there and it's a running joke with our team, but a brand said they changed the button color on their website and got like $5 million in additional revenue because of that. I call bullshit, first of all. RYAN: Wow, I'll do that. [laughs] JON: Exactly. Second of all, it's really setting a bad precedent for conversion optimization because it's really not about button colors. You go online, the second thing you're going to find is checklists all over the place of things that you should just do to your site. Here's a bunch of checklists. The problem is, they're not based on data from your specific site visitors. Now, are there best practices, of course, but do they apply to you? The only way to know that is to truly understand your site visitors. That means collecting data. All of this, I've said already, data back decision making is what's imperative here. If you don't have the right data, you don't have good baselines for where you're at today, how do you even know if what you're doing is working? That's where you have to track every click and movement that people are taking on your site. What's that mean? Well, get Google Analytics, but Google Analytics out of the box, it's meant to help people like you Ryan, some more ads. RYAN: [chuckles] It's good for that. JON: It's all about driving traffic. It's great for that, but most people, unfortunately, try to use Google analytics as a viewpoint for how to improve their website, but out of the box, it's horrible at that. Doesn't mean it's not good for it, you just have to take a different view of the data and do a little bit of extra work. What does that mean? Well, really quickly, you could just go in if you're an e-commerce site and make sure you have e-commerce tracking turned on. There's so many sites, even some large ones doing tens of millions a year that don't have that box checked, and it's an easy win. RYAN: Blows me away. JON: Yes. I'm sure you see that all the time too. RYAN: I do it, just I don't get it. JON: It's all because again, only the marketing team that's driving traffic has really used GA when the e-commerce manager who is actually trying to get more sales out of the site really needs to be paying attention to this data too. The second thing is, get those heat maps, click maps, scroll maps, understand how people are engaging with each page of your site. You can get all of that data through a handful of tools. The one we love the best here at the Good is called Hot Jar, H-O-T J-A-R. It's a really great tool and helps you have a good understanding of how people are engaging with your site. Now, all of that data can then tell you what people are doing, but you also need to understand what they're thinking. That's where things like doing user testing can really come in. Understanding. What does that mean? We send people to the site, who match an ideal customer profile and we ask them to complete tasks on the site. While they're doing that, we record their screen and their audio. Now we could do a whole episode on user testing, we probably should because if you're real deep on this and the insights are just amazing. Really, the point I'm trying to make here is that you have to understand what people are doing on your site and why they're doing it, and then use that data to help you understand what you should be optimizing on your site. Then you can set some goals. At that point only should you be setting goals. You can clearly say, "Well, I'm having a huge problem where people can't find the right product that's a good fit for them. That means that I need to help them filter a little better, or change the content on my site or the navigation." There's a lot of different things to be looking out there already that you could set goals around. Maybe I want to increase engagement with my navigation by 20% because you know that's an issue. Look for the places that people are dropping off in your conversion funnel, and then set goals around that. That's going to be way more effective than just saying I want to increase my overall conversion rate. RYAN: Obviously, if you're an e-commerce site, your goal is to get more revenue to the site. You're saying, if I'm understanding correctly, I'm going to look at who converted and almost use the Google analytics visualization tools to work backwards and say, hey, well, they went here, here, here and then you had drop off here. Maybe that drop off where I'll make it up. I lost 70% of my traffic going through the funnel, maybe I go to that page or that area of the site and say, all right, how do I keep people flowing through the process to the next step in that overall conversion? JON: Exactly. RYAN: Got it. For most businesses that you've seen going through that process, is there a specific part of the site you say most e-commerce companies are overlooking the importance of that part of the site and the flow down the funnel to buying? JON: Well, I think everyone puts an emphasis on their homepage. It's the entry point for the vast majority of traffic, so it's a great place to start. I think though that you should really be focusing on what people do next. What's that second step they take from there? That's truly going to be where the decision is made or broken, and here's why. On the homepage, you're going to have a lot of people just bounce off the homepage that right away they weren't a good fit or they clicked on an ad by accident, whatever. If the highest bounce rate is going to be your homepage, almost always, but secondly, once they get to that next step, that means they're actually interested. At that point, you know in your funnel, those are the people that you need to start paying attention to. Now, I'm not suggesting ignoring your homepage. It's important. Trust me, Ryan, you've seen me do teardowns of websites hundreds of times probably now, and you know how many times I can rail on a homepage. RYAN: Yep. JON: I will tell you, there's a ton of optimization that's it's almost more meaningful for actually converting somebody at that second stage because people who get to that second step are actually interested in your product or service. RYAN: I would say it's almost more than likely a category page after that homepage leads in the e-commerce realm. You'd probably get to a product page from the homepage. JON: I would hope not because, at that point, you really are helping these people do one of two things on your site. They're trying to decide if your product or service can help solve their pain or their need. If they get past your homepage, they think that there's a chance you can help solve that pain or need that they have. Then so they're on a category page now. Now, you need to help them to understand which of those products is going to help them solve that pain or need. RYAN: Interesting, because one of the things I talk about in driving traffic, when I'm separating out like text ads versus shopping ads, almost across the board you would prefer searchers coming to your site off a text ad than a shopping app because it can land on a category page, which most of the time will convert better than a product page. I get horrible generalization across e-commerce sites, but even then, being able to focus on that category page could reap phenomenal rewards in the paid search realm in making that traffic channel much more effective and you can scale it quicker if they're converting or getting through that process quicker at least going into the next step. JON: Right. I've heard Ryan that when you send people to shopping to an individual product, I think I've heard this from you, the vast majority of people don't actually purchase that product, they buy something else, so why not send them to that category page? RYAN: Yes. If you use shopping traffic to get to the site, which I assume most e-commerce companies have done it at some point, when they land on that product page, you want them to find a category page as quick as possible. Breadcrumbs or other things, because really that's when the shopping of your site starts. A lot of product pages get bounced off of from shopping traffic because they couldn't get to a category page and find the product that they were actually looking for. If I'm taking something away from you, at least in this section, it's let's focus on some category pages. If you can, in the e-commerce space, leave the homepage, maybe for the second step as you're looking at conversion rate optimization. If they're not utilizing a conversion rate optimization agency like yours, which they probably all should, what are some of the things they need to be aware of now that they've got hot jar on their site, and they're able to watch people on the page and you can really, I mean, you can get lost in watching people click on your site? It's fascinating as you're in there. You can look up and all of a sudden, an hour's past and you've been watching people just click around on your site. Other than giving us a checklist, how should they be looking at this traffic now that they have some of this data that they've never experienced before? JON: Well, I think the first thing to think about here is most people will set these things up, pay attention to it for a week, and then they forget about it. Now, for all of your sites, how often are you looking at Google Analytics? RYAN: Probably not often enough because I'm not in the weeds as much. [chuckles] Hopefully, some of the people doing the marketing around there are more, but probably not. JON: That's fair. Think about it this way. Most of the people and I surveyed them when we start working with them as a customer, maybe I'm in an initial exploratory conversation, or we just decided to start working with them, the first thing I hear from them is, "I don't know what people are doing on my site." I say, "Well, you already have Hot Jar installed. You're using GA. Well, what's preventing you from understanding this?" They said, "Well, I just don't look at the data." I would say the first step here is just spend 15 minutes a day to set a timer because you can't get lost in it. I think the problem is most people do, what you just said is they dive in, they spent an hour at it, and then they're like, "Wow, I'm overwhelmed," and they just ignore it from there. Instead just spent 15 minutes and try to take away one small insight a day. That's it. Instead of trying to solve all the world's problems on your site, and right away, just say, okay, I'm only going to focus on watching what people do in my category page. I'm going to spend 15 minutes and try to have a good understanding here of how far down the page they're scrolling, what content they're engaging with, how they got to that page, and where they're leaving to go. Just do those four things and spend a few minutes you will learn a little bit more about your consumers that day. Then come back the next day and build on top of that knowledge. You will just continue to learn, day over day, a little bit more about your consumers, where they're dropping off and what frustrations they're having. I say this all the time, but it's really hard to read the label from inside the jar. What I mean by that is, if you are the one who designed or developed your navigation or outlined your part of category pages, you know your products so well that you just assume everyone else has that same level of understanding. They don't. Following what other people are doing on your site will really help you have empathy for that consumer on the other side of the screen. RYAN: Now, that's fine. I didn't quite write quick enough, but what are the four things you say I should be looking at for 15 minutes on Hot Jar or Analytics? JON: Where people came from, so how they got to that page. Where they're going next, so you have an understanding of whether they are clicking into a product or they are doing something else on your site. If they are clicking into a product, what are your top products? That will help you understand where to look next the next day. What they're engaging with on that page. Are they scrolling down and seeing a lot of products where they're dropping off? What content they're engaging with, et cetera? RYAN: I'm always worried on my businesses about distracting with additional information. I have one goal of driving traffic to my site, and that is to get products sold. I know some people go to sites to do research and there's a longer sales process. How aggressive should business owners be at creating that simplicity on their site and avoiding the potential distractions on the site, whether that's category or product pages when your whole goal is just to get them to buy something? JON: Well, I think you hit the nail on the head on me. Maybe it sounds too obvious, but avoid distractions. The whole point here is that consumers have lives happening while they're on your site. I have a three-year-old at home. I can tell you that I had this experience and I'm choosing a flight because this happened to me last week where I was booking a flight and my son interrupted me. I had found the flight out but I hadn't flung the return flight yet, and it just timed me out. I had to start the entire process over again. It didn't save anything, just took me back to the homepage, refreshed it, took me back to the homepage like I had done nothing. It didn't say, "Hey, we timed you out, because we couldn't save your seat anymore on that first flight, but here was the search you did, click here to start it again." That would have been such a great experience, but instead, I came back in 15 minutes, and I was just so frustrated, because it's like, oh, it's spent so much time finding that perfect first flight and now I don't remember exactly what it was. I got a look at my calendar and my agenda and start all over again. There's nothing that I hate more than wasting time and I can tell you that your consumers on websites are doing the exact same thing. RYAN: Got it. It's almost a rule of thumb and give them enough info to be interested maybe in your product or service, but don't overshare or don't put things in the way of them actually taking that next step and that can be almost a step one as you're looking at sites and trying to clean things up and the conversion rate process. JON: Yes. Look, consumers are only looking to do two things on your site, research and understand if you can solve their pain or need. If you can, they want to convert as quickly and easily as possible. Trust me, your goals are aligned on this, not only do you want them to convert quickly and easily, but they do too. Stop making it hard for that to happen. RYAN: Okay. As we dive deeper into this, like, what's a reasonable expectation for CRO improvement? Knowing that my end goal is to get more people to buy something, and I'm going back in those steps to move people through the process better, do I still set the end goal? Do I give it like, hey, I want to go from 1% to 2% on my site within the next six months? Is that a goal that makes sense or are you like you got to do it this way and it should be a lot different than that? JON: Well, I think the best goal to think about is what is the return on investment from the activities that you're doing to optimize conversion rates? The reason being is, I've worked with sites that if we move that conversion rate even a 10th of a point, it's millions of dollars in revenue. I've worked with sites where I'd have to double that conversion rate to even make it worthwhile to work with us. If you look at it in that way, it's going to be different for everybody. I don't think anybody would tell you they don't want to double their conversion rate, but the reality is that it's really hard to look at a conversion rate and compare to even your competitors. It's just that does your disservice. It doesn't help you, it distracts you. Instead, really just focus on showing incremental gains month over month, where you're looking for that small gain, and you're saying, I'm getting a small gain on my conversion rate, and that is enough to show a large return on investment from these activities. Now, how do you track that return on investment? Your goals around that should look at things even including ROAS, Return On Ad Spend. Now you're spending a ton of money to drive traffic, it's valuable, but once they get to your site, if you're not converting them, you're not making that money work as hard as it could be. It doesn't matter how good your ads are and how qualified that traffic is if your site is just tossing that traffic out the window because you made it too complicated for them to convert. There really is a nice synergy between those two areas. RYAN: A lot of the goal I'm hearing you say, would depend on how big is my site currently because moving the needle in one month, a 10th of a percent from maybe 1 to 1.1 could mean millions of dollars. That could also mean, you made an extra $15 and maybe that's not enough, and you had to get a larger goal to move the needle because you were spending more than $15 on CRO stuff. JON: Yes, and that's fair. Look, I think there's a point at which it makes sense to truly focus on conversion optimization and start working with somebody where it's a budget line item. I like to look at that in terms of traffic volume because typically there's enough traffic where we can start running some tests and get a nice return on that investment through detailed findings off of these tests. Now, that traffic level's generally around 40,000 visitors a month, which is probably much lower than you would think, but the reality here is anything below 40,000 visitors and it becomes really hard to prove a test out in a timely fashion and show a return on investment there. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be making data back decisions, or even perhaps doing testing, it just means that it's going to take you a lot longer to prove this test out. The best thing you can do at that stage is to have that data, start collecting it, start reviewing it, and then talking to your consumers and making changes based on what you're hearing and seeing them do. Instead of testing them, just go ahead and make those changes. RYAN: Do you see a difference at a high level between somebody that is a pure-play retailer and just selling a bunch of other people's products on their site, or a brand and the types of traffic and/or conversion rates, like if I was a shoe retailer versus a Nike or an Adidas? JON: For sure. I think that it all is about the context of what somebody is coming to your site to do. It's interesting, Amazon Prime, if you're a Prime customer, you're going to convert at an extremely high rate. I think it's over 70% of your visits are going to buy something on Amazon, because it's the marketplace. You have the widest selection of products possible. You can do all your research on that platform in theory and buy something and do that all fairly quickly that they've done a really great job of that, but if you're a Nike, for instance, people understand, I'm coming to Nike because I want Nike product. I'm not there because I'm trying to compare Nike and Adidas. You've already done that homework, you already have a brand affinity. If somebody is coming in with a brand affinity, they're going to stay on your site, they're going to purchase, but if somebody is just trying to buy something that is more of a commodity, and I'm not suggesting a shoe can't be a commodity but look, I play basketball, and I have a basketball shoe that I really like and there's different brands that I know fit my foot better. I have a brand affinity for those and I'm going to go use those brands. It doesn't matter how much the other brands are spending on their superstars to promote their shoes. That doesn't really matter to me. What matters to me is okay, was my foot comfortable in those shoes? It's a little bit of a different type of approach. I don't need to go to a marketplace. I need to go to the specific brand I know fits me well and I'm going to go there, see what colors they have, what styles they have and buy that. RYAN: Okay, helpful. Is there a time in the business lifecycle outside of traffic? Where does it make sense to start doing some conversion optimization? Like if I just launched a brand, it may not make sense yet to do full-blown, maybe some Hot Jar stuff, but where do you set those different things like okay, do some of your own at this stage, find some help at this stage, and oh, you need full-blown CRO agency at this stage? JON: I would say that, again, going back to visitors to your site, you need to have some traffic to your site before it even really matters to do optimization. Get yourself 10,000 visitors a month through driving some traffic, that proves it's not a product problem because no matter what, conversion optimization of your site, it's not going to help if you have a product problem. What does that mean? Well, if nobody wants your product, nobody knows about your product, your product isn't solving an actual pain or need, then it's not going to sell and it doesn't really matter at that point. Prove out your product first and get to about 10,000 visitors a month. That means that there is a need out there that people have found it and that you can successfully drive traffic through either free or paid channels. Earned or paid. The way that I look at that is between 10,000 and 40,000 visitors per month. You really should just get a list of things to change on your site. I'm not suggesting a checklist. I'm suggesting, go get an assessment from somebody who's an expert in conversion optimization. RYAN: Like Jon. [laughter] JON: Yes. I will happily do that, and really go in there and get one or two pieces of data, be it heat maps or et cetera, and make some decisions based on that data, and then just make those changes. Don't test them, just make them because they're probably at that stage where you would see a bump from just doing that. Now that you've got your return on ad spend high and you're starting to actually convert at a higher level because of those assessment changes, you should start to be comfortable spending more money and seeing a return on that ad spend, setting some goals around traffic and generation and what the revenue should be off of that. At that point, you should be able to get to 40,000 visitors. Now, it starts to make sense to do more of a tailored program where on a monthly basis, you are running multivariate or A/B tests on your site, you're starting to see a return on that, you're continuing to accelerate month over month. At that point, you will see a much bigger gain over time. RYAN: Got it. I think one thing that people also need to realize or get their mind around is something that was foreign to me before I started working with you and seeing the results of conversion optimization, but before Jon and I kind of like the pre-J arena of my life, my vision of CRO was like I spend a couple months in the site, get conversion rates up, go make a bunch more money, then maybe revisited a year or two later, get this conversion rates back up again, but that's in reality not at all what your clients are doing. They have line items of commercial optimization and their budget, and they are paying you every month and seeing phenomenal gains consistently. You've had clients for years upon years. We've shared a few clients for probably three or four years still, and it's still going. Explain that to a lot of people and how they can start reframing and understanding what a regular constant conversion rate optimization program looks like and why they should be considering that type of process for their business? JON: Yes. The best way I can describe this as liking it to here in the United States, we have a retirement account called a 401(k). Typically, what happens is your employer takes a few dollars out of your paycheck every month, you decide how much you want to put into it, and then that goes into an account that continues to grow and compounds over time. Somebody once told me that if I put $10,000 into my 401(k) when I'm 21, that would be like putting $400,000 in when I'm 40 because it just sits there and grows and compounds over time. It's the exact same thing with conversion optimization where if you just make some changes here and there, then come back to it a year later, you're missing out on that compounding effect. You're leaving a lot of revenue on the table, a lot of customers, a lot of conversions over that time. The second thing to be thinking about here is that customer actions are always changing. E-commerce is always changing. Your products are always changing. If you're a big enough brand that's doing this for years and years and years, you're coming out with new products, you're changing your product lines, you really need to understand how people are finding those products, what they're engaging with, et cetera. In addition to that, I hear this all the time, it's like Jon, how long should I expect to do conversion optimization? The reality is it does need to be a line item, it is something you should always be doing. Now, I will tell you, you will never run out of things to test. Where you need to make the decision about whether or not you keep going is whether or not you're continuing to get a return on investment from that spent. That goes back to having the right goals and tracking the return on investment that you're seeing from your conversion optimization activities. You should be getting a return on investment that continues to thrive over time. It may ever flow over the course of a year and seasonality et cetera, but in the end, you should be seen at least a 4:1. We see about an average of a 9:1 return on investment so for every dollar that you give the good, our goal is to get you $9 back in additional revenue. RYAN: That's great. JON: That's one of the highest marketing returns on investment activities that you can do. RYAN: Now, I think there's not many e-commerce businesses that I know of or that we work with that wouldn't be excited about a 9:1 consistently. As we're winding up now, the question that always comes up with CRO is probably one of the worst questions to ask you, but I have to. What's a good conversion rate? JON: Haha. I know this. I get this question daily. Hundreds of times a day. Look, here's the reality. I mentioned this earlier. It does not matter what your competition's conversion rate even is. I get that question all the time. "Hey, I think that our competition is converting a lot higher than us, I want to get up to that rate." Look, it doesn't matter. A good conversion rate is one that is always improving. That's all you should care about, is just continually making that small investment into your conversion rate so that it compounds over time, and you will see sustainable growth in doing that. If you're just looking for that once a year pop, I can tell you how to do that. Just go discount your products heavily. RYAN: [laughs] It's like the best conversion optimization right there. Just you get a 50% off sale. JON: Yes. The reality is that's not conversion optimization in terms of how I would define it, but you will get your conversion rate up. It's one of those things where if you really want to do this, you really need to be thinking about sustainable business over a longer-term. That means investing in it month over month, looking for small incremental gains, and just tracking all of these metrics we've talked about today, in whole, and then looking at that and saying, okay, our overall conversion rate is going up, yes, but there's also a ton of other metrics that are really important here. I think that's where if I see a lot of econ managers fail to sell CRO services through to the higher management, and maybe somebody sign off on a full budget, it's because they only focus on saying, hey, we're going to just improve the conversion rate. Instead of saying, look, there are four or five metrics that really matter to our e-commerce business, and yes, they ultimately gather and combined to improve your conversion rate, overall, but all of these other metrics matter just as much, because if we're not doing those metrics, then we're never going to actually convert the person in the end. RYAN: I think that's extremely important and good point there to finish up. As you mentioned, people should be starting their CRO in assessment. Funny enough, you actually do those for a lot of companies. What's the best way to get in contact with you for an assessment if they want to take that first step in CRO? JON: For those brands under 40,000, we have what we call our conversion growth assessment. That is basically gathering a couple of points of data and telling you exactly what you should change on your site based on our experience and looking at that data, and we'll help you bring those insights to the table. If you have over 40,000 visitors, we do a more comprehensive conversion audit. This is something where we spend about a month doing this audit. We're going to help you make sure you're tracking all that right data, get some great baselines, talk to all of your consumers, do that user testing, we're going to go real, real deep to help you track every click and movement on your site. Then we're going to put together a huge report, 60 to 100 pages, and we're going to tell you, not only what you should change, but how you should do ongoing testing to continue to see that compounding growth over time. All of that you can find on our site @thegood.com. RYAN: Fantastic. All right. If you need some help, or you want to take some steps in CRO, make sure you reach out to Jon and have him take things over and look at your site, and give you some feedback, but set some goals, make them appropriate CRO goals and let's have some fun doing it. JON: Awesome. Thanks, Ryan. This is fun to talk about it. RYAN: Thank you, Jon.
This week, Co-Hosts Cinik, Igrihe, Kim, and Ryan Do some Listener Mail, Review The Gentlemen, and cover some news! Send us your questions at CINIKRADIO@GMAIL.COM. Look at all our other shows at CINIKRADIO.COM. Follow Cinik Radio at FACEBOOK.COM/CINIKRADIO. We are available on Stitcher, iTunes, TuneIn Radio, Youtube, and Google Play
The Bourbon Pursuit team takes a minute to look back on some of our favorite podcasts we recorded this year. We also look at all the bourbons that were released in 2019 (around 55) and Ryan and Kenny vote on their favorite while we have to wait for Fred. Then we take some time to look into 2020 with what we think is going to happen with TTB labels, marijuana, tariffs, and the 3 tier system in 2020. We wrap up the show giving our individual 2020 predictions about barrel programs, secondary markets, and other legalities. Happy New Year! Show Partners: At Barrell Craft Spirits, they spend weeks choosing barrels to create a new batch. Joe and Tripp meticulously sample every barrel to make sure the blend is absolutely perfect. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: Barrel Picks: https://www.patreon.com/posts/jack-daniels-wow-32305844, https://www.patreon.com/posts/eagle-rare-with-32446056 This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about barrel char. What was your favorite episode of 2019? What was the most awkward episode? Bourbons released in 2019. What do you see on the horizon for tariffs and the export market? Do you think we will see a marijuana or CBD infused whiskey in 2020? Will TTB crackdown on new COLAs in 2020? Do you predict a shakeup in the 3 tier system? Will we see the rise of the big secondary groups in 2020? Other predictions for 2020. 0:00 You know, we weren't drinking whiskey this. I know as soon as we started I was just like, should we stop and get this? I was like, yeah, we're gonna roll let's let's actually we sounded much more cohesive, so maybe we don't drink anymore. 0:23 Everybody it is Episode 233. It is our final show of 2019. And usually during this time of the year, things are winding down, I guess except if you work in retail, then it's a bunch of last minute shoppers, but we still have some news to cover. So let's get into it. Last week, I opened the show talking about the craft beverage modernization and Tax Reform Act being in jeopardy. And we also talked about it in this week's podcast. Well, some hopes have been answered and the tax cut has been approved and extended for one additional year. It is passed in both the House and the Senate. So now, graph distillers can take advantage of one more year tax 1:00 breaks. So we'll see what's going to happen in 2020. It will be furthered again or if it's now time for craft distillers to start preparing for a 400% tax increase in 2021. If anything has the word Weller associated to it, there's bound to be some hysteria that follows. This past week, a new Weller single label that was orange hit the TTB. This caused a bunch of memes to spread like, well a pumpkin spice well or honey and even a Weller jaundice. I'm not too sure who thought of that idea, but the market needs no excitement every single week. Now, there are no public details from Sazerac on this line. So it's still yet to be determined when or even if it will ever be released. The proof and the price point. On the bourbon pursuit side, we're finishing out 2019 with a bang. For the past few weeks, we've been lucky enough to select two more single barrels for our Patreon community. Two weeks ago, we traveled down to Lynchburg, Tennessee to select a barrel proof jack daniels. And to my surprise, these whiskies they're only five years 2:00 result. But we ended up choosing a barrel that was 131 proof and just completely floored us on taste and complexity. It was also a good time just talking to a lot of folks that work there because it was truly an all encompassing experience with humble people who just love what they do. And we did our best not to getting into those is jack daniels of bourbon conversations. Anybody that works there because we knew it wasn't gonna go anywhere. And this week, or should I say last week, we traveled down to Buffalo Trace and selected our first ever Eagle rare barrel. And to keep the story short, we had our team of 10 people, along with Susanna who leads the barrel program with Joshua steely who manages the premier bourbon brands and the infamous Freddy Johnson. It was a split decision all the way to the very end, where Joshua and Freddy ended up being our tiebreakers. You can read the stories for both of these pic experiences with the link in our show notes. And these barrels will only and always be exclusively available to our Patreon community. 3:00 thank you as always to our retail partner, keg and bottle for making it happen. You can read more about them and order whiskey online and have it shipped to your door at keg the letter in bottle.com. And not only that is we're starting out 2020. with even more barrel selections, we have our first 1792 foolproof selection happening on the third of January. So go to our Patreon page, check it out to see all the single barrels that we have lined up and the ones that are be coming in. As I look back and reflect on 2019 it's been a monumental year of growth for the podcast, but it was also the launch of our whiskey quickie series. We selected 19 single barrels from various distilleries, we really 17 episodes of pursuit series, and the podcast. It reached a new milestone of 950,000 downloads in 2019. So thank you, all of you out there that listen and support this podcast. We just couldn't do it without you. We decided to celebrate this very special occasion and buy some new equipment to help you even bring 4:00 better quality in 2020. So we can't wait to start recording all new podcasts with the new gear coming in. And today's podcast is going to be more about looking back at 2019 reflections but also looking into 2020. What was our whiskey of the year? And what do we think is going to happen with things like TTB labels, marijuana tariffs, the three tier system and more in 2020 we covered all in today's podcast, but first, sit back, relax and let's listen for what Joe has to say over a barrell bourbon. And then you've got Fred minnick with above the char. 4:32 I'm Joe Beatrice, founder of barrell craft spirits, myself and our master distiller Tripp stimpson spend weeks choosing barrels to create a new batch. We meticulously sample every barrel make sure the blend is absolutely perfect. Next time ask your bartender for barrell bourbon. 4:49 I'm Fred Minnick. And this is above the char this week's idea comes from Jess or blonde ambition, on Twitter. Great handled by the way blog 5:00 invention, kind of jealous of that handle? she asked, What's the average char for a barrel. Now it's interesting, this is something that the distillers they tend to be very emphatic about their belief in the charring of the barrel. As you know, by law, every barrel has to be newly charred oak in order for it to store bourbon. And there have been a lot of experiments over the years to include buffalo traces, experiment for their experimental line that they store whiskey and in a barrel that was charged for nearly like two minutes and the barrel barely held together. So you can't really have a barrel that's charred for more than a minute, minute and a half in order to have like, decent volume come out of it. So the average char that most people use and that they found that they 6:00 derive the best flavor for them is usually about a char number four or 55 seconds, you'll also hear it called the alligator char. Now you're finding a lot of people really kind of live by the chart number three, chart number three is you know in that 45 second to 52nd range and it gets people a lot more you know, a lot more durability out of the barrel but the wood also gets, you know, when that whiskey gets deeper down there and that line, they tend to come out a little earlier. And I've seen some people do a chart number two and a chart one and to be honest with you, those whiskies tend to be a little greener, you find you find a lot of like a stringent notes and I had typically not been much of a fan of that of those. Of course all that is to say that at the end of the day charring plays, fire little or roll into the flavor of the 7:00 Whiskey then the leaving the stage outside and letting them dry age or the toasting mechanisms. So I think the charring while important, is not the most important aspect of the barrel. And that's this week's above the char Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter, Instagram or wherever the hell you want to at Fred minich just email me on my website Fred MiniK calm until next week. Cheers 7:34 Welcome back to the final episode of bourbon pursuit for 2019 Kenny Ryan and Fred down here in the I don't know is this is somewhat of a new setup for us. So we're trying to invest in some new equipment make it sound better make everything kind of work. So yeah, yeah. Wait until the very last episode. Here to get some new equipment. Well, you know, we're, I keep I keep looking at all the Fred stuff that he has and his new setup. I get jealous. 8:00 Do I get jealous and envious now? Yeah, Mike envy that little bit. It's a little bit of mine. It is at least you know how to turn it on. It took me it took me a while to figure it out to use that damn thing. Yeah, it's all right, we'll get there. But today, what we're going to do is we're going to be going over kind of like a recap of some of the favorite things that we did or we saw or a part of in 2019. Also looking into 2020 with some predictions and some kind of ideas that that I kind of have, and we'll kind of just, we'll take it from there. And you know, one thing that the certain data just originally came or just recently came out, there are now 800,000 podcasts that are out there now. And it's an astounding amount and we just want to say thank you to the listeners out there. Not all bourbon, are they out? Well, I mean, there, there's probably a new one every other day feels like it 800,000 other ones now, but you know, want to say thank you to all of our listeners out there, because we definitely appreciate it and hopefully you continue listening to us more as we go into 2020. But what's kind of one thing I want to kind of look at is kind of reflect back on 2019 a little bit 9:00 Like, you know, Fred or Ryan I'll let you kind of dive in or I'll kind of say a few of them like did you have a like an episode that you were really happy about or you're proud about or really got a lot out of you want to take this further you want me to go 9:14 you know, we had so many great ones. I really enjoyed getting Matthew Ray Walton here at English from WWE. And I, the reason why I I love that is you know, inevitably you're going to have new people come into into kind of like the media spotlight and everything for for whiskey and I I applaud that I want to see new people coming in and, and giving their opinion about whiskey and kind of like furthering the story of what we know whiskey is and who enjoys it. And to have like, someone of that caliber who's on TV like every every week and body slamming people I just think that's kind of cool. And you know, we've become pretty good friends and I just think what he has done for 10:01 Whiskey and continue to do so is is fascinating and I'm also I also it's not just because she's one of my best friends but the Peggy know Stevens episode that you and I did 10:14 notice both of those I was not a bar. 10:18 Well, we were mentioning this earlier, it's very rare that all three together it is and I think it's because, you know, it's kind of like when, when the President goes on the stage to talk, you know, you need to have one of the people in the bag, in case 10:30 too many chiefs. Yeah, there's gonna be one designated survive. Yeah. 10:35 This the Peggy no Stevens episode to me was like, you know, she revealed a lot of things there. That was, you know, she didn't have to. And, you know, I wrote the book, whiskey women, and I think she was she was a reason why I wrote it. She was a trailblazer in that in this world. 10:58 And then on the other side, Jackie's 11:00 I can whom we all three were there when was never a fun one she's always great. She's great and Campbell was great and you know I just got to tell you we had a lot of fun this year and every episode I was a part of and you know, just fantastic for me personally. Yeah, I mean for me one of the one of the ones I really enjoyed the most you know, as as Ryan I started venturing off into the our own little side business as well with pursuit spirits. But as we started really kind of like turning a new chapter for bourbon pursuit as well. Like we're, we're not just interviewing master distillers and it's not all cultural, but we're looking at even like, further behind the curtains of things. And that's when we did Episode 182 with Jeff hoffmeyer, brinda yamo and really talking about like, what's the secrets behind sourcing whiskey? Like we all knew that there were there were source whiskey out there, but not a lot of people knew the process what it takes there. I mean, got every talked about, like the whole like a counterfeit full of or a whole truckload full of like counterfeit rum potentially Right. I mean, like 12:00 There was there's a lot of things that a lot of people just didn't really know about it beforehand. Yeah, that was kind of like 12:06 that broke a little news in our world for for a broker to come out and say that there's counterfeit bourbon out there, and someone's bottled it and we don't know who you know. And as a consumer, it's kind of like, it kind of goes back to that old. That old adage, really only buy wood from people you trust and like, that's why the distilled and bottled by are like a source purveyor. Like the pursuit series. 12:32 Your best What's that? 12:35 But you know, that opened a lot of eyes, I think. And yeah, I totally agree. What about you, Ryan? Do you have a favorite one from this past year? Or maybe the most awkward one? Well? 12:49 Well, I think everyone knows which the most awkward one detail. I don't know which one you'd be referring with a counterfeiter, which, I mean, that probably is I it was awful. 13:00 Doing it at the time because it was so awkward but 13:04 as Fred and I talked about with other people and I think it did bring us three like a lot closer and you know because you know you had some people taking shots at us and questioning and all that stuff so we kind of we kind of bonded over it so that and I think a lot of people enjoyed it as well kind of shed some light on a dark subject of this hobby and hopefully deter some people from doing it but probably my most like memorable and fun one I always am in amazed by the business aspect of this and like I really enjoyed the one we did with coffee just because I've started businesses you know myself and on a much smaller scale than he had with rabbit hole and like this guy was literally leveraging his everything to make it happen and you could just tell like, you know it, it was about to come to fruition but it had yet and later we found out that you know, they were purchased by a printer card and 14:00 It was just fascinating for me to hear, you know, because I mean, it's ballsy to come into Kentucky, where you have the most you know, you have the big boys and literally that in you have no connection to the industry whatsoever. And you just start a brand and in succeed like that, it's pretty incredible. So, and I wasn't on that interview, but Kobe is someone who definitely came in and, you know, made some enemies in the process as well. And like he, and he, but he kept pushing forward and his way and so that story is fascinating. For that reason. He got like, one of these big entrepreneur organizations, you got Entrepreneur of the Year for the whole country. So like he's, he caught a lot of people's attention naturally. That's, I mean, it says impressive and, you know, speak on the business side of things like one of the ones that both you were not there for, but I was one dealing with Episode 223 with Ken Lewis, a new riff and really hearing his story of how he just 15:00 Kind of like just randomly got into the liquor business. And then he eventually sold off the the party sources that now become liquor barns in Louisville. And now he just has that one. He had that one location and said, you know what I want to get into the actual distilling process and everything like that, and then kind of talked about how when he was actually at the party source, how he bought all these barrels of MGP just saying like, hey, like, I don't know, maybe I'll do something with them one day. And you know, lo and behold, that's really what kick started everything that happened in New Earth and they did a clean cut from Okay, to their own product. There was no blending or anything like that, and they're not sourcing anything else. It's just moving towards their product and you know, they've had a strong 2019 as well even going into it from from that side, man. Think about how good their whiskey is to know you know, and they just 15:47 they just kind of came out of nowhere for a lot of people we've we've known about them for sure. But for a lot of people are just like discovering new riff and they're like, Oh my god, this is good. And so that story too, is like it's so rare and whiskey. 16:00 That we see someone who Gamble's at all, and and then their whiskies. Good. Yeah usually it's things we see most of them that that don't succeed you know we get you're like, man I'm sorry you spent your whole life savings on this and make this sorry about that but now it's it's hard for me to remember what episodes got released this year because we record some and some get released and so I'm like, you know, just thinking back because if you're not familiar with our process, we batch record I know you're familiar with it but the audience 16:32 we batch record to me, Vance and kind of release them as we go and just so the audience can know and feel sorry for Ryan and I we've just been bullied into like that we have to plan for the next quarter and right after this and it's like we have to come up with new episodes and and he's been trying to schedule it can he's been trying to schedule this with us for a long time and we have a whole syllabus of like, coming up after the show. Let me get your copies at the door. Have a seat. We're going to go over that. 17:00 what's what's your here's a question for you, Kenny. What is your? What's your favorite moment of trying to get Ryan and I to do something? Probably when I get to call y'all names I'm like, well, you bastards. Finally look at these texts. Charlie, I'm trying to get answers to plan the calendar January. I don't like, like, 17:19 I'm in Disney World Day. I'll be back home said no, but I mean, like I said, finally, like when I get those, I feel like I'm just it's it's always waiting. And then as soon as I get it, I'm like, okay, bam, I can start knocking things out, start getting everything ready. And there's there's a whole process behind it. I just got to make sure that we're gonna add like two weeks buffer, you know, when you try to get stuff done with us. Right. 17:41 But I applaud you for for the person. The Pursuit pays off. Yeah. Oh, there we go. So let's go ahead and let's start, you know, looking at to actually, you know, kind of talk about this too, because I don't want my best Bourbons of the year. I don't know, you know, I know Fred's gonna be recording his you know that we're recording this here. 18:00 About two weeks prior to this actually being released and Fred's going to be releasing his, his best Bourbons and best whiskies of 2019. You know, Ryan, I kind of want you to kind of talk about this too, but you know, I think 2019 was actually a very very good year for American whiskey and bourbon. And I'm I actually wrote down every single limited release and everyday bourbon that got released to and I'm just going to go through this really quickly because I want just to say like, just the gravity of really what went out there. And as soon as I say these things, you'd be like, Oh, yeah, that was actually just like back in February now now kind of rain. So of course you've got the antique collection and you got Van Winkle but you had Cornerstone right Elmer tealy 100th The amaranth grain of the gods four roses 2019 small mash Maker's Mark RC six angels empty cash drink knob Creek, quarter oak, double Eagle, very rare old charter oak series, angels envy Ella Rosso Bardstown bourbon company with their fusion fight for habit more. Bill need had some experimental that came out web saffle eight and Sam from GP for gateway. 19:00 Four releases this year blood oath pack five old Carter had a few Bourbons and rise. Woodford Reserve backer at addition Woodford Reserve batch proof Woodford Reserve chocolate malted, rye, peerless bourbon Weller full proof. 1792 12 year king of Kentucky 2019 Baker's 13 Wild Turkey, Cornerstone right I had on there twice, so maybe I'll take that one back. Old forester birthday bourbon Parker's heavy char rye, Kentucky, bourbon number nine Stranahan snowflake 2019. Remus volstad, reserve bourbon from MGP. And those were all the limited releases. So now we go into just the everyday releases. Old forester rye, crema Kentucky they had two releases this year for roses small batch select heaven Hill bottle and bond seven year Cooper's craft barrel reserve 100 proof Maker's Mark 100 proof uncle nearest 1884 small batch whistlepig piggyback rebel yield 100 proof Woodford Reserve week whiskey decal 13. Year bottle and bond, Jim beans legend Kentucky out confiscated Baker seven and the bullet single barrel program was also announced. And then you also had others like barrel dovetail all the barrel 20:00 releases all Bazell Hayden, Caribbean, right, you had all of the Booker's batches. I mean, when I did account, like we were saying we have options out there. It was like almost like 55 new entrants into the market this year of just limited releases. But there's also a good handful of just every other day stuff. So in my opinion, 2019 was a fantastic year for American whiskey. So there's there's two things two ways to look at this one. Yes, it was a fantastic year. The other way is is that these distilleries are getting savvy about releases Yeah, every every release is a new press release is a new story somewhere it's new and so they're not just like saying like, Okay, we got Woodford Reserve and Maker's Mark, let's go, you know, pushing that so they, they've, they've learned that the consumer base like something new, special and different. And so that's what that list tells me is that some some MBAs and the boardrooms have spotted that and it's the strategies were 21:00 Yeah, I think it also tells us that, you know, they're starting to catch up on their stocks of aging product. They're starting to, you know, you starting to see like, seven, eight year, you know, stuff getting pushed out there that, you know, finally they weren't, you know, eight years ago they didn't have and so I think they're able to catch up on and start releasing some more stuff now. I mean, this was this was just from the big guys, right like this is this doesn't even take account the other 300 craft distilleries or maybe 3000 craft distilleries there are across our nation now. Right. So there's a lot of stuff that was released. And for it, I kind of see what you're saying that this is, this could be a telling sign of what is going to come in 2020 like, yeah, we just named off maybe like 3030 to 40 kind of like, you know, big kind of things that kind of shook up that. It's because it seems like every week that there's a press release, and everybody's like, Oh, yes, I gotta go get this one. Right, right. I mean, even just last week, like pretty much everybody around here. We got 22:00 larceny barrel proof and we got the old Fitz 15 years and it's like, okay, like already gearing up for first to 2020 to go and find new bottles, right? So I guess that's just kind of the maybe that's just a new evolutionary cycle that we're going to see. And I would like to say like what the question to me is like you say that list and we know their strategy, I think what can be very telling us the pricing of each one of those as like. And the one the the big winner of that entire list to me, is the old forester rye coming in at $23. And that's just and we know that Jackie's I can kind of fight for that to be at that price point. And the other ones like you know, where what are their price points, I mean, they're hovering anywhere between 75 and 150. And so you know, a lot of these like new kind of products, they're not really pricing in, you know, the old consumers who brought them to the dance, they're, they're gone for that. That new consumer who's like thinks that $75 is too 23:01 Yeah, I mean, I could definitely see that I mean, I think Ryan and I, we we had this conversation of even before we went in the car when we were just talking about pursuit series and we're talking about like, oh, like what happens if we run out of glass and we just like kill the brand and start a new brand? Like what like what do we do here? Right so there's there's definitely even though it's very smaller scale, we have ideas and things even think about you know, even when that happens, but Ryan, what about you mean is there one of these like everyday ones that kind of like stuck out to you or anything like that is kinda like maybe one of your best whiskies of Yeah, I mean, Fred already mentioned that before sir I mean, it's frickin It's so good. 23:39 I get it in pretty much when I can every cocktail to like it's good both ways. And then the the decal bald and bond I thought was really excellent. You know, and price grade and, you know, the blind tasting of the heaven Hill, bald and bought seven year also proved that it's a very good and you know, at 40 bucks as much to your chagrin 24:00 Right, much to my chagrin, but 24:02 it's really good whiskey and it's $40. You know, like Fred said, most stuff that you got to get that quality is like 7500 bucks. So, you know, that's, you know, it was good. Yeah. And that's, I mean, I guess this will be another question for you all like going into 2020. Can you picture bigger brands trying to come out with more extensions that drive a price point even lower? Or do you think they want to create more extensions that create a higher price point to try and match some of the craft distillers, the Sorcerer's and everybody out there that can't make a price point as low as you can if you're actually distilling it you own these barrels for since they were, you know, basically born at that point? Well, we had to market leaders come out with very lowest price points. Brown Forman, and the Ico so brown Foreman's old Forester, Ryan Diaz, you would be George decal, bottle, the bond and those two kind of like under, you know, let's say $30 or 25:00 $40 price points. 25:03 You know, that was very telling to me, and then you saw beam do that as well, like they're not pricing on collection. Yeah, they're not pricing high. So I do think that there is a little bit of an effort to kind of make us think that they are pricing in that direction, like larceny still like 25 bucks for for the most part most places you go. But then there 25:27 you know there are other things are like 150. So that I think that what you're seeing is, is that you're seeing that they're going to always have something under $30. But they're going to start stacking the chips toward that hundred and $50 market and I think we might start seeing the price go up more because the demand is there in the high affluent areas that places like 25:51 I mean Hollywood, places like Wall Street. So there's like a desire to have this and they and they and that crowd just won't drink it. 26:00 $30 whiskey, they just won't it's timin that's cheap. They're too good for that. And so if if the bourbon industry does not price themselves to be competitive to scotch for those money people, then they won't get them and then so that's kind of like their rationale behind a lot of it. Yeah, I mean, you are seeing a lot of things that are pushing that hundred $50 price point and I can definitely see exactly why they would want to do it too. I mean, you've got to you have to push to kind of get those affluent people I mean, we see it all the time. I mean, we've I always say for myself that I don't have a drinking problem I've got a buying problem and I will always be able to go and if I find any limited edition bottle like even if it's hundred 50 bucks I'll be like, Yeah, go ahead and get it like it. I just don't know i mean, i i have a I have a bad urge. always buy stuff, right? That's, that's just me but at the same exact time, there's always going to be a lot of people out there in the bourbon world that are never going to pass up anything that a price point that is limited or anything like that, too. So I don't know. We'll 27:00 We'll kind of see how that plays out in 2020. So we're kind of moving on a little bit here. So looking into 2020. So one of the things that kind of happened even recently, as even as of today, it's still kind of unfolding, as we talked about that. In 2019. There's been a trade war, we've had tariffs, we've had a lot of things going on that has really hurt bourbon in export interest. And we've talked about it plenty of times of how the export market is really where a lot of growth can be, as soon as you start getting all the scotch drinkers around the world to actually start seeing bourbon as a first class citizen form. And so there's been things have already kind of progressed a little bit today. There's been some stuff with China. We're not going to get too into politics here, but I kind of want to figure out like, 27:45 what do you all see on the roadmap or their horizon for this in 2020? This is very scary as we record this right now. I mean, there might have been, there might have been something that came to fruition, but at the moment in 28:00 In Washington, DC, the craft Modernization Act is on the table to be renewed. And if it is not renewed in craft distillers, I think we'll talk first, what is the craft Modernization Act to because I know I've heard about before I read it, but for everybody, I have no idea what it is. So, basically, this was a so you got a lemonade stand, they give you $5 now, so to keep it to kind of keep it 28:25 to basically to give you like, the the easy version is that a couple years ago, they passed a craft Modernization Act, they basically gave craft distillers as defined by you know, the the government or we AC essays qualifications, 28:42 that they would get less they would pay less taxes, then then the big guys and it gave them kind of a competitive advantage. This was very, very important to them, especially as these terrorists were coming on and they were losing those like foreign markets because they couldn't afford to, you know, to eat the 20 years. 29:00 25% tariff that they were going to go overseas and so there was sunshine clause in that which means that when it's when this period is up, you know, they're going to cut it and or they're going to re evaluate it and that period is up and so now you have craft distillers who are looking who've been you know, taking advantage of this tax and investing it back into their you know, there's like a paying taxes on certain areas and they've been investing it back into their company. And when if that goes away, then they have to you know, there's like a 200 400% tax increase like right away on on like excise taxes and that puts them at a competitive disadvantage. You know, some of these guys have like big corporate support like you know, wouldn't build those now and rabbit hole and people like that, but for the most part, this is very dangerous, very dangerous and and from what I can tell, it is not good. 30:00 Going to may not pass and the other thing is too is that also defined a lot of things in in spirits 30:08 like or in drinks like a define Mead and gave like some definitions to meet and there's also another thing that's happening kind of on the federal level is that they're trying to define what a barrel is and with that would eliminate the basically the smaller barrels and the craft distillers have you know love them or hate them for it but they've kind of defined their ways with those smaller barrels. And so I've always felt like there's a lot of like 30:34 backdoor Washington stuff going on with the big boys you know, the trend kind of cut out is squash some of the little things and because that means you take away those smaller barrels, I mean, he basically eliminate probably a quarter to half of of the craft whiskey distillers 30:51 I guess I kind of like a follow on question to that is, 30:55 you know, you talked about investing into the business, you talked about being able to 31:00 A lot of that money means is dc dc if if this doesn't pass like is 2020 going to be like the year of either sink or swim for a lot of these craft distillers than I do. I mean, I think 2020 is a very telling year. 31:14 And if you don't have money if you're if you're cash flow short, this is this is going to be a bad year. And then the other thing too is like, just what you're starting to see. You're starting to see and you guys are a part of this and a little bit. You're starting to see like independent bottlers come in and they are relieving a little pressure by going to the smaller distillers and buying barrels. So what you're seeing is is like anybody who has some solid craft whiskey, they're actually putting stuff out on the market. So they're getting kind of kind of a band aid effect. They're not helping their brand, but they're getting cash flow by selling 15 barrels to last lantern or 15 barrels to bourbon pursuit to bottle 32:00 Are pursued series to bottle for for upcoming line. And so that that's 111 positive for these guys is that there there's there's a business model there that can help them. But you know if they're new and they're little cash strapped they don't have aged whiskey man I want to be in their shoes tough What about you? Rami? What do you see something that happened with the export market like here? Do you think it's going to get better or worse? 32:33 Well, I mean, I guess it all really it's so hard to predict with the election coming and everything there's so much in the air like 32:40 nobody knows what's going to happen and the dude know we're all going to need a drink. 32:46 Yeah, exact. We're all for that one. It's just so you know, the waters are so unsettled there in Washington, you know, on both sides, and so it's hard to predict anything on with anything with what we have going on. 33:00 In 2020, it's just like, let's all just be nice, you know, in 2020, let's just we're all bourbon brothers, you know, not let the politics divide is but as far as exports, I have no idea because it's, you know, I'm sure a lot of people are sitting back to waiting to see what happens. Yeah, I would think that something in a trade war needs to that sound like an educator responded said a very educated who will let it will let it pass. But I mean, for me, I kind of see this as I would like to see something change. You know, we we talked about it before, I've seen the export market as as the could be the future of bourbon growth. And you don't want another whiskey glut era to say that, you know, a bottle of bullet here in Kentucky or in the United States is $35. And then you go across the seas, and then it's $75 when there's a bottle of scotch for 50. Nobody's going to go Yeah, by the bullet, right. I mean, so well, and I think right now, like Remember, our young said with he said, Well, even though we have issues with exports over there, we can fill a need here and domestically. So you know, I think the need here domestically, still as 34:00 So, so much that it's not really going to affect too many people except for like jack daniels who relies heavily on exports. Yeah, and that is true and they're losing like 120 $5 million. Which, but still for them that's like, that's like one day I revenue probably. But 34:18 it matters. It matters because the world stage the conversation is, is like it kind of goes back to really, you know, the 1950s when these bourbon distilleries were fighting to make bourbon a unique product to the United States and get exports overseas as they were always coming up against the Battle of like foreign governments saying like, you're not whiskey, you're not you're not whiskey. scotch is whiskey. And so so all a lot of this is is a kind of, 34:51 it's kind of an international battle that just hasn't stopped in, you know, scotch and bourbon brands that they're very closely knit and everything but 35:00 You know, scotch is dominant is dominant and it is known as whiskey and bourbon is just like a, like a fraction of what they get. And and, and I don't think that the bourbon brands will ever fully admit this. But they're jealous of scotch and what they have done internationally. It's like Kenny with your MC. Yeah. 35:24 Pretty much 35:27 and they do it with us bourbon barrels. And so they're like, you got our dirty second sloppy seconds. Right? And, 35:35 and so they want they want a piece of that. And as then that's all there is to it, but they're also not in a position to do it. And so like, you know, Al is very smart to say like, we can't do it overseas, which, so let's focus on domestic markets. I mean, that's the it's the right move. I mean, I I'd venture to say places like Boise, Idaho and Bismarck, South Dakota is not right that South Dakota riders and 36:01 South Dakota I left my Atlas upstairs. So I'd venture to say that places like that, you know, you might go into a random place and there's five Bourbons, you know, why not make it 20 36:13 All right, Ryan, I'll talk to you a little softball here right because one of the great conversations that we did have this year we talked about marijuana and whiskey and whether they were going to have an impact on one another or anything like that, but this was actually something that Chris Hart had actually posted out on one of the forums and says, Do you think we will see a marijuana or CBD infused whiskey in 2020 36:36 I mean especially with with all the states that are going to opening up legalization to like it's it's there is a trickle effect happening cbds and everything so I mean, you drive around here and Kentucky I see signs like on every gas station every like I think I saw like a mechanic shops that we sell CBD here or something, you know, it's like 36:55 diversify, diversify. bound. Oh, I guess I mean, if they look if it's legal that you 37:00 I think they will because people, I've talked to people and they'd really seem whether it's a placebo or not, they really think the CBD like works for them and whatever element they're trying to deal with. But uh, you know, I mean char Bay's pretty close to doing it anyway, so I'm not a hobby ever whiskey. And I'm not sure that it will taste good, but maybe, I don't know what to say. Yeah, I mean, for me, I mean, it can't be called bourbon, right? Maybe I don't really know. But can it be called bourbon? If he doesn't if he can't, because it's not really low what unless you're distilling with it right. One of the things that has been done is they take the seeds and they distill it in a in a like, qualifies as a grain under the hemp rather qualifies as a grain as a seed on like some kind of USDA code. And so there have been people who have mashed it and cooked it and fermented it and y'all know me Romans one 38:00 of those that had done that previous previously and then from here's the thing about this, I've talked to a lot of, you know, marijuana people and they don't really want this, it seems to me like, and I'm sure there definitely are people who you know, within the weed business who want to see like infused alcohol. But most of the people that I talked to who are kind of like in the, you know, the luxury lifestyle of marijuana, like trying to like make it be like its own thing, they're like, you know, pair it, but don't, don't combine it they want they would like to see you know, marijuana become like a, like a luxury good as something that you would enjoy recreationally like we do bourbon, and they don't like that a lot of them don't like the idea of combining it with alcohol because that perpetuates like a stoner or a drunken kind of, it's hard to like persona, you know, it interacts with somebody so differently, you know, right. And then you interact you have the two and it's like, well, how do you dose it you know, correctly say, one shot for somebody might like 39:00 I'm trip out and like call the ambulance on themselves or something, whereas somebody else needs like four. And so I don't know, it just seems like it'd be tricky to combine the two were because you can't really dose it out as well. But constellation invested billions into the business for a reason. And they're studying like how how to get it to metabolize the same way as alcohol because, you know, weed metabolizes differently than alcohol, and they're trying to figure out how to make it work. So someone's going to do it eventually. Next Best gummy. 39:31 I mean, so there's, there's, there's eventually it's going to happen. I mean, who knows? Who knows? I mean, I could see it happening. I mean, they're there today, they're already infusing different kinds of sports drinks or anything like that with it. But you know, alcohol is a, as we all know, a very heavy, heavy regulated kind of sector here. So pick up again and get shipping much less and 39:54 using it using it with Oh, gosh, you know, so, you know, this is the other thing 40:00 That I kind of got wind of this. We had a Patreon community person actually sent us a sample of this. And it was called it was from heritage distilling and it's called BSB 103. And it stands for brown sugar bourbon, and it says this high altitude bourbon is flavored with natural brown sugar and cinnamon for flavor kick that will sure wake you up whiskey aficionados looking to try something new. Also, it was only 60 proof and not 80. And this originally just kind of just went through the TTP went through the whole approval process like didn't really say much about it right? Is it is it labeled as like your flavored whiskey or it says it's like the fanciful name is BSB 103. Okay, underneath it and say brown sugar, but it says no, it says like brown sugar, bourbon and like letters and all around. It's what it says everything that it was originally just called brown sugar. bourbon is what originally called they had to rename it to be sb 103. And so we know that this isn't the first time right there's plenty of other instances where we've seen things 41:00 Just a slip through the cracks and yeah there's a bottle and bond like flavored whiskey few years ago. I mean it happens this is what keeps Wade interesting, right? is what keeps him like, you know really like metal. So I guess, do you do you all think that the TTB and just in 2020 in general, do you think it's gonna even get more relaxed or more strict 41:23 with the careers of master distiller spanning almost 50 years, as well as Kentucky bourbon Hall of Famer and having over 100 million people taste his products. Steve nalli is a legend of bourbon who for years made Maker's Mark with expertise and precision. His latest project is with Bardstown bourbon company, a state of the art distillery in the heart of the bourbon capital of the world. They're known for the popular fusion series, however, they're adding something new in 2020 with a release named the prisoner. It starts as a nine year old Tennessee bourbon that has been finished in the prisoner wine companies French oak barrels for 18 months. The good news is, you don't have to wait till next year to try it. Steve and the team at Bardstown 42:00 company have teamed up with rackhouse whiskey club rackhouse whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer. Their December box features a full size bottle of Bardstown suffusion series, and a 200 milliliter bottle of the prisoner. There's also some cool merchant side. And as always, with this membership, shipping is free. Get your hands on some early release Bardstown bourbon, by signing up at rackhouse whiskey club.com. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 42:34 Do you do you all think that the TTB and just in 2020 in general, do you think it's gonna even get more relaxed or more strict? I mean, I know there's other laws that are on the books but what he kind of sees the head turner patron are going to happen here. I mean, it's with any government agency, its resources like you know that they probably just have limited resources and it's like, you know, with us when we apply for any federal thing for personal 43:00 series like whereas the transfer and bond or state ABC, you like submit it, and you check back three weeks later, like, oh, we're still looking at stuff from six months ago that submit and you're like, what? Like, stuff just moves slow just because they only have like two people working in the office doing everything. So they're probably overworked, overwhelmed. So things just slip there. I think they'll follow the laws as best they can. But there's human error when you know you have that. So there's definitely not a whole lot of automation takes place, even though I will say the TTB did start a new new registering and cola system in 2019. It did happen. So they have a new like portal and stuff like that. But I think the backend work is still very manual process read, do you read to say something? You know, I think for the most part, they do a good job considering that they have like five people, you know, looking at all those labels and God that can't be easy, and everyone gets frustrated with them. And they're an easy target. But 43:53 I always like to go back to the person who creates the label. What are you doing? You know, I mean, you you've been 44:00 agreed to not protect yourself. And if you put that through as as bourbon on your application, then you're in violation of the law. And so, you know, I think we sometimes beat up on the TTP, and rightfully so often. But here it's like 44:19 put, I put the blame entirely on, on on the applicant. Well, and it's, I noticed this other day, you kind of mentioned it like separating, you know, bourbon from whiskey category, like in, I never really thought it was that big a deal until I went to the liquor store. And you go look at the bourbon section, and it's huge. And then the American whiskey center is like really tiny, and it's off to the side. And it's like not, it's not visible, you know, from everything else. And so I can see why someone would work so hard to get that 44:52 slip by just to get that designation because if you're right there, in the midst of what everybody else is buying, versus being kinda off to the side of the marriage. 45:00 Whiskey category I can see where it's worth it. Yeah, I mean, we've we've, we see it all the time. I mean, whether you're coming out with like a wheat whiskey or an American whiskey, something like that, and yet you're not gonna have the eyeballs because it doesn't say bourbon on the label. Yeah, I mean I think that's that's one of the big issues that we do see and probably why there is so much entrance into the market 45:19 then you've got people playing with all kinds of different experimentations I I think I just saw an email this morning about 100% corn, bourbon, I'm like, Okay, I guess it technically is it's bourbon right? But it's just like it's like we're just we're playing with all different variations of this category to try in make sure that everything is still hitting that that Big B word on the label at the end of the day. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's funny what like once upon a time there was like a limit on like, how much corn you could put in for bourbon. But then that went away a long time ago, but that would not have been considered bourbon back in the day. Oh, I love listening old Fred stories over here. It's like another thing too. I don't think he was around. 45:58 This is like, is like 46:00 barrel entry proof if we if we were to go back to like 1955 more than half of the Bourbons on the shelf today would not be considered bourbon. No. Because it was what like one oh wait a second 115 or something was 110 was the was the legal maximum limit difference for for barrel entry proof and that changed in 62 inches Do you think the reason success of new roof and wilderness trail and others you know because well I guess well as they have a higher Berlin troopers, do you think lower barrel entry proof makes 1,000% I really do. I mean, and here's the thing is it is it is really good. In certain what I have noticed is that's really really good between like three and five years old, and like anything after like eight but that but that six to eight years old, it can be really, really, really flat. 46:50 The the higher barrel entry proof can be fantastic up to 12 years old after 12 years old. That clock is ticking because that it's like it seems somehow absorbed. 47:00 more wood. And Andrew Wilson from Victor's is the best person to talk about this. She talks she breaks it down from a chemical aspect and everything and as you know, makers is going in the barrel of 103 proof which is the lowest in the industry. And it to me it's one of it's one of the more enjoyable conversations to have about whiskey because 47:22 I feel I feel that not enough attention is paid to it but yet the Pete there are a lot more people paying attention to it. And willness Trail and new riff and those little barrel entry proofs Absolutely. Making making nice whiskey. Yeah, I mean, they're definitely making waves when you when you have that because somebody tastes it and you're like, holy crap, this is a four year old bourbon like this is actually really good. Now the one thing that you know, you say you really like it, I say one of the one of the downsides to it. It doesn't have and maybe this is just because, you know, you think of like the stags, the stag, juniors of the world, stuff like that. It doesn't have like that, that link 48:00 Green very long finish where something has like that hard spice to it or anything like that. Like this Like creamy delicate today that's that's exactly right. So you're basically looking at a style and a preference here like do you like that butter style dripping down your jaw line or do you want to feel that? You know, that's punch in the face punch in the face 48:20 cinnamon or something in the here's the thing. I like all of them. And it's like how does how does that one feel on my palate and you kind of like it's just like it's like football you know? They're they're running backs who will run you over in our amazing and then there are running backs who will go left to right, you can't tackle them and they spin and then there are running backs, who all they're good for is catching a pass and blog. There's the Barry Sanders and the Jerome Bettis is the That's exactly right. So like that on a T shirt. They're all great. It's just like what is your preference for your offense or for your palate in that moment? Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's there's definitely times when I'm like oh yeah. 49:00 I'd like to do like, like something that's, you know, if I'm just sitting there on the couch and I just want to do something that's like, yeah, like you said, caramella, very buttery, sometimes I'll reach for dusty and that kind of aspect. And then there's sometimes I'm like, All right, we're going hundred and 20 proof and above right now. So yeah, there's definitely the kind of situational context for it to write on. So one of the things that we talked about a lot in 2019, is we talked about the three tier system, we talked about shipping, we've talked about all these things. And this is and you know, the the Supreme Court case of the state of Tennessee with total wine and some other ones that were kind of envelope in there, and how this is potentially going to open up the market for some change. Here, maybe in 2020. So I kind of want to get your take on what is there going to be a shake up in the three tier system, can you foresee it happening? Are there too many lobbyists? Will the will the people revolt like what do you all kind of see, I think it's always way I would that, you know, you asked me this six months ago 50:00 I thought we were close. And I just feel as the more I get into it, the more and more the big. The big players involved are just digging in, and they're digging in hard and they're not going to let this happen. I just, I just feel like we got a ways to go on it. I always go back to this and this was in one of my above the chars A while back 46 state attorneys general signed a letter and made it like kind of like their mission for 2020 this DOP secondary sales on Craigslist, 50:35 I just can't even believe that would be on the radar. And you know, and then putting the efforts in the that just shows me that they're like sticking in hard to the three system. It's not. I mean, it's not like they just like put out a press release. I mean, they were doing media, they were putting out detailed plans. They were setting up meetings with the social media entities. And I'm just thinking to myself, I'm scared to death of my 51:00 five year old getting kidnapped in target when my wife is going and Christmas shopping with him. And he's like stuck there by like trying to get in there because that's where human traffickers are there like in places like that. Why are we focusing on that? And yes, is it is there a potential that you know, there can be some kind of like poisoned alcohol out there? Yeah, there is. It's called in the heels of like Appalachian places where people are making illegal whiskey. No one is getting or illegal moonshine. No one is getting that in these like consumer facing forums, and the fact that they are using, they're actually coming out and they're citing Pappy Van Winkle right now. They're citing Pappy Van Winkle in these conversations. And the fact that they are doing that tells me that they don't get it. They don't understand that this is actually a consumer base that is really just supporting one another and not trying to, you know, for the most part not making money 52:00 People who are like saying they're in Maine or they're in Idaho and and they got a buddy in Kentucky and said, Hey, we have no Henry McKenna here. 52:10 Can you give me a bottle, you know, something like that. And there's no effort whatsoever to support the consumer base from the brands from the government from the distributors or anything like that. And that's that's my biggest problem here is like if you want to take off if you want to go after the secondary markets, fine. Okay, that's your that's your Hill. But what about what about like consumers who are really have fallen in love with this? 52:38 With this world, this bourbon world, we get an email every day from someone who just finds bourbon, they listen to the podcast, they want to learn more, they want to find more bottles, and what can we do for them now? And maybe there's not much there's not a whole lot we can do about that. Like, Hey, I read about this great whiskey but you can never get it because you live in Boise, Idaho. I know. Yeah. I mean, I really 53:00 I really want to shake up to happen. And I guess one question I'll point to you back there. Fred is, you know, we talked about these attorney generals, do you think that this is, this is somebody planting that that seed in their head like this has got to be a lobbyist that's happening for the distribution system? Or maybe some of the major manufacturers out there that they're they're planting the seed in their head, and they're kind of distracting them from really what they're, they're putting forth their agenda, not maybe the agenda of, of the people that are actually the consumers, they really care about this. Yeah. And there was also there was an op ed in the local courier journal 53:41 that was published on repeal day from a distributor here that said, 53:47 happy reptil they think a distributor So you started to see like, some like and he had a whole lot better about why distributors are important and they help you. Basically they age gate, make sure alcohol doesn't get in the hands. 54:00 of kids and stuff. And I'm glad they put it in a newspaper. Yeah. 54:06 So only like 10 people are going to read it. Fantastic. Hey, now, come on now, don't be hitting up newspapers where I got my start. 54:15 But you know, so you're seeing you very much singing offensive, whether it's a coordinated thing. I mean, I can't tell you that. But I do know that. These are some of the same efforts. That kind of took down a lot of the tobacco industry in the 90s. Meanwhile, while you have this going on, you also have you have this entirely you have a new group coming out saying like, drinking is bad. Advertising alcohol is bad. And so you have a growing movement of kind of like these consumer protectionist groups that are trying to ban things like advertising, they want to you know, we're just now seeing it on like YouTube, they're wanting to like rip down a lot of 54:56 alcohol related things and social media. 55:00 And so this is also a case of like, a lot of the things that affect our lives are not government related. They're they're company related that we have really, you know, we're really connected in. And so like, if Facebook makes a policy and says no more alcohol sites that in no way is violation of anything and the government, that's Facebook making a decision, and they could do it. So I guess, if you if you're a senator, and you listen, this podcast or your congressman, you want us to kind of you know, we'll we'll have we'll have the team go there. And we'll we'll get in front of Congress will talk about the real issues here. So make sure that so here's here's the thing is that congressman Yarmuth would be very, very open to having a discussion with us. Mayor Fischer, I know his yard I'll talk to him about 55:53 but I mean, these are these are people who really, really would stand up for it, you know, and what you know 56:00 Because it impacts our state. Yep. I agree. You know, and for me, I've said it before being in tech, being able to see the transition of industries that just get disrupted because they rest on their laurels or they tried to defend everything. You know, don't be a Kodak Don't be a blockbuster Don't be one of these companies that just tries to try to maintain the status quo. And when you've got people and you've got companies that are out there that are figuring out ways that they can get around this, they can get around the distribution system, they can ship across states, they can do these things. all it's going to do is have a bigger trickle effect later on, and more people are going to catch on to it. I mean, you know, we're all good friends with Blake over at seal box and I think he's done an amazing job of how he has grown and matured the business a lot more in 2019 to the point where it's, it's running like a very well oiled machine now. And we talked to a lot of companies 57:00 And they're like, how do you do it? Like, what do you do? I'm like, oh, like we knew this, like early on, like we weren't able to get to all 50 states. So we looked at Blake and he can get to more states than we could ever even try to do it the, you know, filing paperwork and waiting for things to come through and opening distribution and then losing our ass on half the product because we had to pay 25% to somebody else, right? And so now people are like, Oh, well, that's how you did it. So now like we're giving Blake a lot more business because a lot of people also Now see, this is how they can do it. Right. And I think some of the even the people that are already there and distributed and now he can't actually do it. Because the way that the way the law technically works is that he necessarily can't buy direct from somebody and sell it unless it's already if it's not already distributed with inside of DC. And so you know, you've got other brands that said like, Oh, shit, we were there too early, and now we kind of like lost our percentage that we could have got out of this business model as well. Yeah, it's just you know, it's it's tough because it is alcohol and yes 58:00 We want to say let's open up shipping, let's do a secondary, but there is a lot of things that need to be well thought out and laps and limited. And so like, 58:08 we just need, we just need some way for, like, let's work towards it versus like holding our ground either one way or the other. Like, let's like right, say that shipping, we have to do it all that way, or we have to know it. There's got to be a middle ground that we can make it work. And one of the reasons why you may never see a middle ground is because you have like these large distribution companies, and that would require them working together in some ways, you know, and that 58:36 they may not want that get on a zoom call figure it out. But here's the here's the the truth of the matter is that eventually, someone brings up the will How can you guarantee that a 16 year old kid is not going to get the bottle off of the doorstep or whatever. And they're in it doesn't matter. Like you can have people sign for it. You can have anything. The minute that 59:00 shipped alcohol or something outside of the three tier system gets into a child's hands. And something happens. It's over. I know, you're telling me like you never had a fake ID growing up. That's just it is like, I will not confirm nor. 59:17 But I'm just saying that that is they're all as always the go to argument, always. And they're like, you know, we protect that. And here's the thing is that they do to a small percentage, but let's go to you can go to any college bar, any college bar and you will find like under age people getting served almost all the time. And any high schooler whose cousin, you know, goes and buys them. So those and they made in the parking lot and so here's a way tech guy, let's get a thumbprint on every bottle of alcohol that you have to guarantee that you're an adult or something like that. Yeah, one open 59:56 or it explodes your hand. Yeah, not not that's gonna be a tough one. 1:00:00 Neil and the other thing that we kind of also, as we're talking on the shipping topic, as well, as you know, even Kentucky and the KDA, they fought to get shipping at a lot of the distilleries that are around here where people can go and they can have their stuff they want to be able to ship out but they don't want stuff coming in. That's nominates the as a kind of oxymoron. But I also don't know exactly like, what the the stats of the details of it like how much is it actually us? considering we can only ship to like, six states or something, right? I mean, it's been ridiculously low. Yeah, there, there's only 6% Okay, so it's like, I know, a couple disorders don't even do it because they're like, I'm not gonna waste my time on six states, you know, or have a shipping package send, right? Exactly, have set up all those resources to be able to just fulfill six, you know, states, but I know it's just surprising. Like, I'm kind of confused. Like, on one side, we're embracing, you know, the vintage law and all this stuff, you know, and then on the other side, where, you know, control 1:00:59 limits you 1:01:00 Being in secondary so it's all just like it's it's it's hypocritical Yeah, all of these laws basically they start out in one place someone opposes it and then it gets compromised and something gives up and so that that law where they could be shipped in it seems like all the laws are just geared it's more favorable for the businesses and other consumers like I'm all for like distillers being able to serve more alcohol ship sell more bottles on property, all that. Okay, that's great for them. But what about consumers, you know, who wants to buy across? 1:01:33 There's not a I mean, there's not a you know, if there was it'd be small but there's not a bourbon advocacy out there. us maybe right. And, but we're not I don't I'm not signing checks or sending checks that you know, to gain whatever pass but there's, there's so many there's so many lobby groups in the distilling business, you know, and there's that there's the a DI there's a CSA, there's distilled spirits Council. There's a 1:02:00 presidents forum this Kentucky distillers Association, there's Texas whiskey association with, on and on and on, and on and on. And they all tell their story and get what they want, try to get what they want. And, 1:02:12 you know, it's not necessarily always what the consumer wants. Yep, absolutely. So as we start rounding this out, you know, there's, there's one thing that I want us to do is like, what is your big prediction for 2020? Right? And I know, and I'll go first, and I'll kind of kind of set the ground and you can kind of pick what you want. And it could be it coul
166 Cider Chat Live | Life off CiderCon2019 I was able to squeak in a mini episode before setting off to Chicago for the annual cider trade conference “CiderCon” hosted by the United States Association of Cider Makers. I’ve been talking a lot about CiderCon leading up to this week of February 4-9, 2019. With 1000 people attending from all parts of the world, it is the Talk of the Town - for those of us who are hooked on all things cider. Below is my schedule of recordings - I have a pretty simple set up to track who I will be speaking to and when. I am stoked that I will have more time at workshops recording, versus hidden away in a back room doing interviews. It’s not that I don’t like interviews, but when I heard last year that no one saw me for most of CiderCon in Baltimore - I realized that just ain’t right. So this CiderCon - I have set up an number on seminar and panel recordings. Even as I am flying to Chicago right now - I am getting direct messages in Twitter from makers who are going to CiderCon and looking to chat. Luckily I have also learned to leave a few open slots for just these kind of meet ups. Here is the recording schedule thus far - Feb 5th Tuesday Arrive…get landed find half and half for morning coffee that me and my hotel mate Erica can use for the bad ass French press she is bringing (dang sure glad I agreed to room with Erica who also is one of the biggest, joyful cider enthusiasts around …my kind of cider person!) Lee Reeve - InCider Japan 6-7pm - note to self, bring the bottle of Calvados - must do a swig with Lee, whom I am stoked to meet. Little Pomona - 7pm - I must catch up with Susanna and James Forbes - Already have my copy of The Cider Insider, that Susanna just wrote - and would love to talk to her about this awesome book! A must have - links to buy on the Cider Chat resource page The Northman Cider Bar tonight…maybe or lay low and pace myself…we will see Feb 6th amWednesday 9-10 Simon Day - Once Upon a Tree | UK - I am so excited to meet Simon and hear his tales and drink his cider!!! 1-3pm Pomme Boots Meeting - Krista Scruggs of ZAFA wines is speaking!!! 3-4pm Media - I think as media I get to go to the Cider Share early - weeeeeee 4-6:30pm Cider Share - Heaven on earth - walking about a room full of cider and the makers 7pm - James Creek Ciderhouse, North Carolina - a cider dinner and recording with Ann Marie and David Thornton???? “Yes - please” Feb 7th Thursday 10:15am - Beginning Cidermaker panel - continental A - I get to moderate and introduce this powerhouse panel. 10:15am Dryness - Williford C - I will be recording this key presentation with folks from the New York Cider Association - Jen Smith is the Ex Director and I Heart Jen! 12 - 1pm Attorney Marc Sorini is speaking during lunch on the History of Alcohol! I had to coax Marc to allow me to record! Can’t wait to hear this presentation!!! 3-4:30pm oak - Ryan Monkman - Wiliford A-B - Ryan of Ontario - …based on Prince Edward County and maker of Field Bird Cider - If you haven’t listen to Barrels and Bàtonnage with Ryan - DO - he is amazing. and I adore him, Feb 7th Thursday evening open - who knows where I will be once the sun goes down. One thing for sure, I will have a glass of cider in my hand. Feb 8th Friday 10:15am Embracing & Encouraging Diversity - Continental C - yowza - this is a powerhouse panel 12:30am Michelle McGrath - lunch speaker - I want to record Michelle - she is the perfect fit for the USACM and the fact that she is doing all that she does and is pregnant to boot! Super Star!!! Leaving Open - 1:30 - 4:30 Friday evening - Erica scored a ticket to the SpeakEasy Cider meet up - YeeHaw! Feb 9th Saturday - A full day at Chicago Cider Summit Feb 10th Sunday Fly home - Ya!
【特别感谢热心听友“Coco 鄢文琴”帮忙听写本篇文稿】He Yang: A global survey found its coffee and ketchup that holidaymakers consider their packing essentials, rather than flip flops and suntan lotion. It’s also showing that nearly 40 percent of Chinese mainland travellers pack instant noodles with them. Are you one of them? Guy’s, please tell me more about the survey and what’s up with bringing food from home when you are travelling?Ryan: Yeah, a survey of travellers from 29 countries and regions have revealed the top unexpected items each nationality takes abroad, ensuring that wherever they go they have a taste of home with them. The study are looked at, it was by a Spanish travel company, surveyed 7,500 people from around the world ensuring that a minimum of 250 locals had been interviewed for each country. Now, looking at these, I think, some of them are pretty silly. So, maybe if we have some French listeners you guys can clear this one up for me. But bringing cheese, 53 percent French people said they would bring either cheese or dairy products. Guys, don’t dairy products go bad like, how are you going to refrigerate that, that seems more a problem, more trouble than it is worth.Luo Yu: Cheese have gone through four fermentation processes already, so , it won’t decay. He Yang: It won’t to decay, but it will smell bad like baby diapers. And Chinese people tend to bring instant noodles, that doesn’t smell. But I don’t get it, if you are travelling, then aren’t you supposed to try the local food. That’s part of your travel experience. Why bring instant noodles?Ryan: Define travelling, what if I am going to my parents’ house on Spring festival and I want something to eat on the way, on the train. That makes sense!Luo Yu: And What if there was a long journey trip, like you take a train from Beijing to Urumqi. Right?He Yang: You guys are just ganging up to against me today, not giving me a chance. But as independent young women, I will stand firmly on my ground. That I’m saying travelling here means long distance as you are travelling to a different country probably go sightseeing. And why would you bring your home food?Ryan: No, no, specifically, I can’t answer that question, because I fill in the category of us Americans. In the study shows that Americans, we, tend to bring toilet paper and I’m all about that.Luo Yu: And condoms.Ryan: Oh, Godness, no, that’s totally false. He Yang: It’s fine if it’s true. You know, just do it safely.Ryan: Do it safely, that’s what we are saying. But as an American, it is, for us, is very hygienic oriented, which I totally agree with.Luo Yu: For us, it is very easy to understand, because, for one thing, we love to taste a little bit of food from home. And that’s why a lot of Xin Jiang people would carry loads of nans (nan bread) with them. You know, it’s very easy to preserve and not easy to get rotten or decayed. And people just love it, like people from Shanxi, Gansu or Ningxia. They have Guo kui. These like crusty and crunchy shells, but very tasty inside. So, it’s like people are a little bit nostalgic and they get used to the food already. So, that’s why we take with them.He Yang: Yeah, It just like South Koreans take kimchee with them. And whenever there having local food, maybe they want a little bit of something, that reminds them of home. But still, doesn’t that just defeat the purpose of travelling, you are going off a foreign country and I would still want to try the local staff.Ryan: I think it’s weird. Yeah, you should try the local staff but if it’s really bad, I won’t blame you for going to the MacDonald’s that’s probably that’s down the street, because it’s seems to be everywhere. But one thing I did say like I did like that 37 percent of Russians they bring playing cards, really smart. Playing cards are good.He Yang: Alright, I would like to finish today’s show with Han, our Wechat listener’s comments. He says: “I would definitely try instant noodles with local flavors, for example, kimchee noodles, if I visit South Korea or a bunch of other instant noodles with local flavor…Luo Yu: I love that advice.He Yang: It’s totally a genius.
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