Everybody Wayne Hsiung Tonight!

Defendant Alicia Santurio and attorney Jonathan Frohnmayer on how we won another historic victory in the Foster Farms Trial.

I'm pausing the podcast, to take on some big new projects. What I've learned from the last couple years, and what's coming next.

Leighton Woodhouse is a journalist documentary filmmaker, and an iconoclast. He's a (former?) leftist who now critiques movements for police accountability, racial justice, and even climate change. I disagree with him — vehemently in some cases — on almost all of these issues (and even on some aspects of animal rights: the cause that originally brought us together). But he's also a dear friend, and someone who has shown kindness to vulnerable beings in their times of need. I will always remember the time he found an orphaned kitten on the road, and the passion and effort he brought to saving her life. This conversation is a lot of things, as we discuss everything from the culture of policing to the root cause of homelessness. But what I think shows more than anything is how to disagree with a friend. Leighton and I have drifted apart, in our political views, but he knows that he'll always be a friend.

Helena Merk is the CEO and founder of Spirals Protocol, a green cryptocurrency startup that aims to use blockchain technology to create effortless and verifiable climate impact. NOTE: This podcast has a lot of technical jargon. If you're new to crypto, check out this blog for a simple guide to some of the terms and concepts: https://simpleheart.substack.com/p/a-green-guide-to-cryptocurrency-podcast

Priya and I talk about our experiences inside Whole Foods' highest-rated turkey farm, our efforts to change our families' traditions around Thanksgiving, and the best time to drink coffee. Priya Sawhney is co-founder of the animal rights network Direct Action Everywhere. Jeff Bezos disruption: https://youtu.be/QKuNZdGsQ_I Bernie Sanders disruption: https://fb.watch/gXwN7jSIYM/

Criminal law scholar Hadar Aviram, who testified on my behalf at the Smithfield trial, joins me in a conversation about power, corruption, and her theory that some of the greatest wrongs in life are caused by people acting in fear. Read Hadar's blog on the trial: https://www.hadaraviram.com/2022/10/08/smithfieldtrial-the-most-absurd-miscarriage-of-justice-youve-never-heard-of/

A few simple tenets of Buddhist thinking have lifted millions of people globally from anxiety or despair, and empowered them to become their best selves. How can we apply these ancient traditions to modern life?Music by Dayzee Deva

In 1986, Gene Baur saw a sheep lying in the so-called “dead pile” at Lancaster Stockyards. But this sheep wasn't dead. She lifted her head, and Gene rushed her to receive veterinary care. The story of Hilda is just one of many that Gene has to tell from his nearly four decades of animal rights activism. But it all comes back to the same foundational idea: when we are at our best, we are rescuers of animals, not their tormenters.Hilda's story from Farm Sanctuary: https://www.farmsanctuary.org/news-stories/hilda/The Power of Open Rescue (article by DxE co-founder Ronnie Rose): https://medium.com/@ronnierose/the-power-of-open-rescue-58b250323a32

Eric, Matthew, and I discuss “moral theories,” why they matter, and how they converge around animal rightsMusic by Dayzee Deva (cover of "Everybody Have Fun Tonight”)

Alex Chow and Anna Kwok are activists with the Hong Kong Democracy Council, where they've challenged efforts by the Chinese government to restrict civil liberties and silence dissent. Music by Dayzee Deva (cover of "Everybody Have Fun Tonight”)

We're trying something new: recordings of our short in-person conversations on Friday nights.These short conversations will be released on Mondays. Our usual podcast will be released on Thursdays. Let us know what you think!References:2019 DxE Year End Video: https://youtu.be/VT61lSOP6sQPhoto of fireworks and fishnet relationships: https://i0.wp.com/www.austinweeklynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Michael-column-art.png?fit=1188%2C1248&ssl=1Music by Dayzee Deva (cover of "Everybody Have Fun Tonight”)

In my last conversation with Prof. Justin Marceau, we talked about his personal journey – from an aspiring pilot in the Air Force Academy, to Harvard-educated lawyer defending inmates on death row. What we did not get a chance to discuss, however, was Justin's importance to the historic trial that ended with not guilty verdicts, for both me and my co-defendant Paul Darwin Picklesimer, in southern Utah. And, as I tell Justin in this podcast, he played a key role. This is not just because of his testimony at trial, which in my view changed the tenor of the case. It's because Justin gave me wise counsel – that I did not take as seriously as I should have – about the risks of doing open rescue work, against some of the most powerful corporate interests in the nation. It's because Justin has elevated the importance of criminal defense work, including a new activist defense project he is launching at the University of Denver College of Law. (As Justin says, we cannot protect animals, if we do not protect those who rescue them.) And, perhaps most important, it's because Justin has come to me – despite coming from an elite and highly-credentialed background – with a philosophy on change: Don't do what everyone else is doing. Fill the gaps. That simple message is crucial at this point in history, not just for animal rights, but for politics and society. We talk about that idea, and much more, in this conversation. Enjoy! Beyond Cages: Animal Law and Criminal Punishment (Justin Marceau's book)Palliative Animal Law: The War on Animal Cruelty - Harvard Law ReviewMusic by Dayzee Deva (cover of "Everybody Have Fun Tonight”)

There were so many cliffhangers in the recent open rescue trial in Utah. The mistrial that was nearly declared on the first day, due to the court's failure to provide us information about jurors. The decision to close our case, despite not calling all of our witnesses, because of a strategic error I had made in failing to prep one of our witnesses. And the gamble to move forward with submitting the trial to a jury, even when the court agreed that there was a fundamental miscarraige of justice – the state's efforts to paint Smithfield in a rosy light, while denying us the ability to show evidence of animal cruelty – on the last day. Jeremy Beckham, a long-time activist who has sued the government around a dozen times – and won every case – is the perfect person to break it down with me. The trial, which was described by the judge as the greatest in the history of St. George, had so many wrinkles to it that those who were watching from Zoom just would not pick up. Thankfully, Jeremy was sitting in the gallery, one of the small number of people allowed into the courtroom, all the way through trial. There are a lot of lessons we can learn from the trial about social change, the law, and even human psychology. This conversation will help us start to draw them out. The New York Times - Animal Rights Activists Are Acquitted in Smithfield Piglet CaseThe Intercept - ACTIVISTS ACQUITTED IN TRIAL FOR TAKING PIGLETS FROM SMITHFIELD FOODSThe Salt Lake Tribune - Animal rights activists found not guilty on all charges after two piglets were taken from Circle Four Farms in Utah Jeremy Beckahm's animal rights organization - Utah Animal Rights Coalition (UARC)

It's still a little hard to believe. But on October 8, just a few days ago, a jury in southern Utah found me not guilty on all charges. The next few podcasts will discuss the trial, and its aftermath. But this first episode will focus on what came before: the incredible mobilization of people across the nation and world to fight with us against Smithfield, and for the right to rescue. Almira Tanner is lead organizer of the grassroots animal rights network Direct Action Everywhere (DxE). She was the one, behind the scenes, ensuring all the trains ran on time – from the disruption of an NFL game on Monday Night Football to managing the theater in St. George where supporters gathered to watch the trial. Curtis Vollmar is the grassroots lead for Compassionate Bay, a 501(c)(4) organization that has pushed some of the most groundbreaking legislation in animal rights history, including a nearly-successful effort to impose a moratorium on new factory farms. Curtis was the activist who, in July 2022, was charged with disorderly conduct for merely leafleting in Beaver County, Utah regarding the Smithfield trial. His case, and the death threats against animal rights activists, were the basis for our successful effort to move the Smithfield trial from Beaver to Washington County. Finally, Paul Darwin Picklesimer was my co-defendant in the Smithfield trial, and a lead investigator in the DxE Open Rescue Network. Among other things, Paul is also responsible for the design aesthetic of DxE. You'll hear all the work these folks did behind the scenes to make sure that the story of the Smithfield trial reached, not just the mainstream media, but became a powerful narrative in communities across the nation. How did we do it? What were the impacts? What were our mistakes? You'll hear it all on this episode – and also how you played a crucial role, too. Music by Dayzee Deva (cover of "Everybody Have Fun Tonight”)

Priya Sawhney is an organizer, poet, and co-founder of both The Sanctuary Initiative and Direct Action Everywhere (DxE). She is also one of my best friends on earth, and the person I've entrusted with the two beings I love more than any other – my dog Oliver and my cat Joan – as I face off with Smithfield in the trial that may change my life. For that reason, she will not be joining me in Utah. Oliver's trauma has left him trusting of very few human beings. He needs her more than I do. Joan, who went blind and is probably near his end of life, requires round-the-clock care. But even as her physical presence will be missing, her spirit will be strong. And we tell the story in this conversation about another trial, in which the force of Priya's spirit arguably saved me from prison. Whether that happened or not – or whether it will happen in this case – there is a bigger point to that story. At every point in history, there are a nearly limitless number of possible futures. Every choice we make causes a split in the universe, towards futures filled with either cruelty or compassion. This is what theoretical physicists call the multiverse, and it's as weird as it sounds. The power of Priya's spirit is that it bends all of these branches towards compassion. It may very well be why I'm not sitting in a prison today, and it may save me from prison over the next few days. Because when people feel what Priya feels, what you and I feel, and what the animals feel, they are moved to act. This will likely be my last podcast before the verdict, and perhaps the last podcast (with my voice) in a long time. But remember: the podcast will continue, in Priya's voice (while sometimes reading my words), no matter what happens in Utah. And so long as you keep speaking your truth, we will prevail – and the multiverse will bend towards compassion. The livestream by Priya that may have saved Wayne from prison Priya's joy from finding Bertie, the beagle rescued from a lab, then lost on the streetsMusic by Dayzee Deva (cover of "Everybody Have Fun Tonight”)

Paul Picklesimer and Jon Frohnmayer joined me in an investigation of the largest pig farm in the nation, Smithfield's Circle Four Farms. Now they're joining me as we fight for our freedom – and for the the right to rescue animals from abuse – in a trial that will unfold in the next week. At risk is 11 years in prison. And we are facing unprecedented obstacles, including a local sheriff who has told animal rights activists, “You will be killed. And I am not going to be there to stop. It.” But, as we discuss in this podcast, we are ready for this fight. Because we have support from people across the world – including, maybe, from you. This may be the second to last time you hear my voice on this podcast, as trial begins on October 3. To all of you who've joined us over the past year, thank you. And let's get ready for the fight of our lives. Music by Dayzee Deva (cover of "Everybody Have Fun Tonight”)

Amy Meyer was volunteering at an animal sanctuary near Salt Lake City, Utah when she decided, on the spur of a moment, to take a literal turn off her usual path. She had driven by a massive slaughterhouse on the way to the sanctuary many times. It always made her sad to think of the animals sent to their deaths, just a few hundred feet from the road. But one day in February 2013, she decided she would not just drive by. She would stop – and try to do something about it. And by merely stopping and pulling out her camera, from a few hundred feet away on a public street, she set off a chain reaction that trigger a nationwide legal battle for free speech and animal rights. A small horde of police cars surrounded her. She was charged with violating Utah's newly-enacted “ag gag” law. And her normal life suddenly transformed. Amy's story, in which her partner Jeremy also played a key role, shows two very important things. The first is that the state has been corrupted by industry influence. When even our most cherished civil liberties are blatantly violated at industry behest, something has gone wrong in American democracy. The second lesson, however, is that when we fight back – and work together with inclusive coalitions of activists, media, and ordinary people – we can win. This is a good one. And an important story to keep in mind as Paul and I go to trial. Because in less than one week, on Monday, Sept 26, we are going to ask you to join us in fighting back against industry influence again. Stay tuned for more. Music by Dayzee Deva (cover of "Everybody Have Fun Tonight”)

Almira Tanner is lead organizer of the grassroots animal rights network Direct Action Everywhere, which I co-founded in 2013. In that role, she's been carefully watching the rise and fall of not just the animal rights movement, but movements across a whole range of social justice issues, from climate change to workers' rights. And something has gone wrong; people seem to be losing hope. She's seen this in her own work trying to challenge factory farms in California – including an underhanded corporate campaign to kill a moratorium on factory farms before it even came to its first committee vote – but also in our broader society. Despair seems to be the feeling of the day. How do we overcome that feeling and drive progress? As I approach a trial that, in many ways, seems hopeless, I thought it was important to have this conversation with Almira, so we could answer this question together. And what we found – what you'll find – is that there's more reasons to be optimistic than you might think. For example, the moratorium on factory farms in California was killed, but the fact that the bill was even introduced, in a state that has one of the largest animal ag industries in the nation, is a minor miracle. In short, not just hope but reasons for real confidence are there. Sometimes, we just have to take a deeper look. We do that together in this conversation. I hope you enjoy it!Direct Action Everywhere (DxE) - WebsiteMusic by Dayzee Deva (cover of "Everybody Have Fun Tonight”)

Dr. Michael Martin is a professor of epidemiology and biostatistics at the University of California at San Francisco. He is also President of Physicians for Social Responsibility, the United States affiliate of an organization of medical doctors that won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1985, and the founder of Physicians Against Red Meat. And he has an important lesson for us: we have the power to make change. Whether it's educating ourselves about the existential threats posed by nuclear weapons, or pushing our institutions to switch to plant-based foods, the future will be defined by each of us. The choices we make, in turn, can reverberate for generations. So we better make the right ones! Mike is one of the smartest people I know, with a diverse set of interests that are sort of astonishing. For example, beyond nuclear weapons and red meat, Mike has done important research on the impact of sunlight on skin. (Preview: His research suggests that 90% – !!! – of all age-associated skin damage is caused by sunlight, and not by aging alone!) This is a great conversation to listen to, especially on a week that many of us are asking our friends to join us in a plant-based meal. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

We started The Green Pill Podcast in September 2020 to create a space to talk about change. Now we're going through a major change ourselves: in about one month, I head to trial to face criminal charges that could transform the rest of my life. And it's for that reason we're transforming the podcast, too. There's the obvious reason: I may not be here much longer to serve as host. Priya, Ronnie, Dean, and Chloe will step up in various ways to ensure the show continues. But there's a more fundamental reason, too. To truly create change, we need you to be a part of this. So while we're changing the name to Everybody *Wayne Hsiung* Tonight!, the two characters that are most important in the new titles are the two asterisks. You see, in code, the asterisk stands for a wildcard. And while the show will go on, following me via letters from prison if necessary, what will really sustain it is if *you* get involved. I can think of no better people to discuss this idea than the team who joined me for this first episode of the rebranded podcast. Ronnie Rose is co-founder of Direct Action Everywhere – and the first animal rights activist I met when I moved to the Bay Area in 2012. He helped us establish not just the intellectual foundation, but the values, which supercharged the grassroots animal rights movement in California and beyond. Priya Sawheny is co-founder of Direct Action Everywhere. She's been one of my most important partners in crime (figuratively, of course) over the last 10 years, and is helping launch a new org, The Sanctuary Initiative. Dean Wyrzykowski is the former President of the Berkeley Organization for Animal Advocacy and grassroots director in my 2020 campaign for Mayor of Berkeley. He's leading the operations for The Sanctuary Initiative. Finally, Chloe Leffakis, who joined us by Zoom, has been my social media lead (and sometime avatar) for the last 5 or so years. She's joining us as a founding staff member of The Sanctuary Initiative – and will continue to play a crucial mostly-behind-the-scenes role in everything we do. We talk in this podcast about what we've learned from the past 10 years, and our plans for the future. But, most importantly, we talk about how to get you more involved.No matter what happens next month, as long as we find ways to stay connected, and stay kind, we'll make progress. Thanks for joining the journey so far – and believe me when I say, the best is yet to come.The Idiot by Fyodor Dostoevsky (novel)Beasts of Burden: Animal and Disability Liberation by Sunaura Taylor (book)Axolotl by Julio Cortázar (short story)Mad World by Gary Jules (song)Donnie Darko by Richard Kelley (film)Music by Dayzee Deva (cover of "Everybody Have Fun Tonight”)

Hadar is the Thomas Miller Professor at UC Hastings College of the Law and an expert on criminal law. And the things she has discovered in the course of her research – for example, “pay to stay” schemes whereby prison inmates are forced to pay for their own incarceration, after they are released – have changed the way many view our system of criminal justice. But while Hadar has exposed all manner of corruption and injustice, to me, she has been a source of hope. This is true of her personal life, where she's managed to balance an incredibly intense academic job, risky activism, and raising a child in a historically difficult moment in human history. It's true of her academic and legal work, which has provided crucial support to the movement of open rescue – and also quite possibly saved my own legal license, when the industry attempted to have me disbarred. The most important source of hope, however, comes from her philosophy on life – that human beings, at root, are good and decent beings, and that truth has the ability to correct our flaws to create a better world for everyone.Hope should be a hard thing to maintain, when you're in a position like Hadar's – appreciating in deep detail the many injustices that our society ignores. But Hadar offers some tips in this podcast on how to do just that. Hadar's most recent book (2020) - Yesterday's Monsters: The Manson Family Cases and the Illusion of ParoleHadar's book (2019) - The Legal Process and the Promise of JusticeHadar's first book (2015) - Cheap On Crime Recession: Era Politics and the Transformation of American PunishmentMusic by Moby: Everything That Rises

Carter Dillard was a bright law student looking to make a difference in the world. And he did what most ambitious young lawyers do: he took a job with the most prestige, the so-called “honors” program at the Department of Justice. But when 9/11 happened, everything changed. He switched to the newly-created Department of Homeland Security and started working on “terrorism busts.” But something was wrong: the government wasn't just using its power against actual terrorists. And, spurred by a chance encounter on the Washington Mall with animal rights activists, Carter made a sudden switch: from cop to “criminal.” Carter is a long-time friend and has some of the deepest knowledge of the law and history of animal rights in the movement. But the lessons he's learned, on everything from human motivation to messaging, will be relevant to anyone interested in making change.Music by Moby: Everything That Rises

In less than 2 months, I go to trial, where I face more than 10 years in prison, for freeing animals from nightmarish abuse. It's for that reason I thought it was particularly important to have this conversation now. Ingrid Newkirk, among animal advocates, is a household name, one of two people (along with Animal Liberation author Peter Singer) most known for the founding of the animal rights movement in the 1970s. And she has learned some lessons in that nearly half century of work that would serve all activists – and people interested in change – to hear. Consider the lesson of her book Free the Animals: when systems are broken, it's important for us to take direct action. Whether it's monkeys trapped in a lab or human beings having their rights violated, when corrupt institutions are failing to do their job, it has always taken grassroots activists to create change. Sometimes, this even involves people who are deeply embedded in these institutions, as was the case with “Valerie,” the police officer who, after witnessing disturbing inaction by the authorities, took it upon herself to free the animals herself – and launch the Animal Liberation Front in the United States. (Valerie's story has just been republished, in Free the Animals' 30th Anniversary edition. Along with Peter Singer's Animal Liberation, it remains, in my view, one of the two foundational texts of the animal rights movement.) But perhaps the most important lesson from this conversation is less-obviously related to animal rights. It is the importance of remaining focused on a mission. Ingrid has been relentlessly focused on creating impact for animals for virtually her entire adult life. And while others are distracted and even defeated by various personal doubts and disagreements – e.g., one notable and fierce “disagreement” I had with Ingrid that became so heated for me that I ended up in a Chicago jail cell – Ingrid has always kept her eye on the prize. There's power in this sort of focus, the power to change the world.Music by Moby: Everything That Rises

Jeremy Beckham is a long-time animal rights activist who I've wanted to have on the show for a while. For one, Jeremy has an encyclopedic knowledge of animal rights history – and the lessons from that history for anyone who cares about social change. For another, Jeremy has an important perspective on modern progressive politics, and how our desire for safety has insulated us from the very people we need to change. But probably the most important reason I wanted to have Jeremy on is that he's lived one of the most interesting lives of anyone I know. Raided by the government while living in a “squat” house in Utah; touring the country to protest primate experiments with a band of stuffed animals (who saved him at a key moment in his tour); and diving into the darkest aspects of our society, into spaces that few people even know about, much less dare to explore… Jeremy's biography would make for a wonderful movie. But it also has important lessons in it. Among the most important is this: to truly understand the world, or make change, you have to dive deep. This is a long one, but a fun one. Hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did, as Jeremy and I dive deep into a whole host of issues for nearly 3 hours. Music by Moby: Everything That Rises

Zoe Rosenberg and Sherstin Rosenberg are two of the most inspiring people I know. Shocked by the horrors of factory farming about 10 years ago, they decided to start a sanctuary for animals that had a unique focus: giving each individual animal world-class care. Zoe, as a teenager who ultimately would choose to be home-schooled, and Sherstin, a veterinarian trained at the best schools in the nation, were in the unique position to deliver on this vision. But they also created something else: A model for human politics. You see, as our institutions fray, and our politics devolve into mud slinging or even violence, there's something powerful about looking to our relationship to animals for inspiration on the world we can build with each other. I point out three ways the sanctuary can be a model for a fundamental transformation in human politics and society: resource provision; conflict mediation; and in so-called “terminal values.” I have so much more to say about this subject, and especially that last point. (I have a draft post titled “The Empire of Kindness” that's in the works.) But I think the best way to understand Happy Hen is to listen to its founders. Enjoy. Happy Hen Animal Sanctuary (website)Music by Moby: Everything That Rises

Alexandra Paul was on Baywatch, the most watched television show on the planet in the 1990s. But instead of following in the footsteps of other Hollywood stars, she did something different: she turned her life toward activism. When I asked Alexandra, who is one of the happiest and most centered people I know, why she took that route, she shared something I've heard before: that her privileges in life gave her the willingness to take on big risks.But as I listened to her speak, I wondered if the opposite might also be true: namely, whether her willingness to take big risks – choosing to become an actor and model over a more conventional life at Stanford; getting arrested early in her career; and taking on a cause (animal rights) that was far from popular when she took it up – was itself a reason that she became such a confident and secure person. Regardless of your answer to that question, I think you'll find Alexandra's life and stories fascinating – and perhaps learn something about how you can become a more confident person, too. Alexandra's podcast: Switch4GoodAlso, for those of you who listen to the end of this podcast, you'll hear that my birthday is coming up in a few days on June 18. Here's a link to the fundraiser I've set up: https://www.facebook.com/donate/752497609261930Music by Moby: Everything That Rises

On May 20, the Court of Appeals in Utah ruled against us in our effort to reverse a trial court order forbidding us from introducing evidence of animal cruelty in a criminal trial involving an open rescue at the largest pig farm in the nation. The decision, though not unexpected, was still a tough one. There is no factual dispute as to what happened; our defense rests on not what we did, but what was on our minds. The most important evidence as to our motive and intent will not be heard in court. If we are convicted, as a result of this improper and unconstitutional ruling, we could face more than 10 years in prison. It might surprise you, therefore, to hear that I am incredibly optimistic about this trial, which will begin on Sept 9 in Utah. I invited two of my co-defendants in the case, Paul Picklesimer and Jonathan Frohnmayer, on the podcast to break down why – and detail how two prior efforts by the industry to cover-up misconduct have backfired spectacularly. Music by Moby: Everything That Rises

In 1968, Doug McAdam was an aspiring basketball player and occasional anti-war activist when he heard the devastating news: Martin Luther King, Jr. had been assassinated. He pulled over to the side of the road and started bawling. But things only got worse that year. Within months, Bobby Kennedy, who many believed would be the next President of the United States, was also murdered. And when the Democratic National Convention ignored the wishes of primary voters and selected a pro-war candidate, riots broke out on the streets. The nation was gripped by fear, anger, and violence. And yet, the period after the 1968 convention was a period of positive change: an end to the Vietnam War, the passage of the groundbreaking Clean Water Act, and the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade. As an acclaimed sociologist at Stanford, Doug has now spent a lifetime understanding how change of that sort happened. And it turns out that anger — often seen as an emotion that stifles progress — was central to the social transformations of the 1970s. In fact, anger is one of the two central emotions that have driven social change for generations.That is perhaps good news for those who seek change today. The anger, and deep sense of injustice in the world, are palpable; and that feeling crosses the political spectrum, from Tucker Carlson to Bernie Sanders.There was another emotional ingredient in 1968, however, that Doug believes is missing in movements today: hope. You see, anger without hope for change is counterproductive; it leads people to cynicism and even inaction. And despite the killings and riots of 1968, the 1960s were a time of immense hope. People felt that all the tumult was building toward something better. That's not true today. Whether the issue is wage inequality or the climate crisis, most people don't see much hope for change. This is one of the reasons that, despite the fact that we have not seen the violence of the 1960s, Doug believes the present moment to be the most intense crisis he's personally experienced in American history – even more than the tumult of the 1960s! But that does not mean all is lost. Skilled movements through history have found hope in crisis. And it can be done again. This conversation is about a lot of things – the pitfalls of social movements, the evidence on how movements grow, and the challenges of activism in a digital era – but perhaps the most important topic is the question of how we can inspire hope.And, without giving things away, there's a one-word answer: community. This was a fascinating conversation with one of the deepest and most evidence-based thinkers on the question of social change. And many of you contributed to it, by offering questions (including audio recordings) in advance. Let me know what you think, and thanks, as always, for listening. Doug's pioneering study on social ties and activismDoug's book on the Freedom Summer, a historic effort to register Black voters in 1964Music by Moby: Everything That Rises

Katie Cleary is a model, actor, entrepreneur, and documentary maker. She has not only hung out with some of the biggest names in Hollywood – but also headed out to the frontlines of animal abuse, to protect endangered wildlife from poachers who are armed to the teeth. But she's also something else: a Christian. And while I sought Katie out for this conversation because of her work protecting endangered animals, we ended up talking about another vanishing species: progressives with deep religious faith.This was a challenging conversation for me. While I identify as Buddhist, I don't believe in anything beyond the material realm; my Buddhism is more philosophical than it is spiritual. That's why it was surprising to me that I found so much to value in what Katie shared about her faith: a code to live by, stories to inspire good deeds, and above all, a sense of purpose beyond oneself. I doubt I'll become religious myself. But conversations like this one have changed the way I see faith. And it might give you some food for thought, too. Trailer for Why on EarthIs animal rights a “religion”?Music by Moby: Everything That Rises

Jane Velez-Mitchell is a former news anchor who created one of the biggest grassroots platforms for information on animal rights. She's also a recovering alcoholic, who speaks openly about some of her most embarrassing experiences as an addict. And the mistakes Jane has made have, in many ways, given her the wisdom and strength to succeed. What's true for Jane, however, is true of so many other institutions in society today. The media. Politics. And even mainstream dietary practices. Jane argues that the consumption of animals, for example, is a form of addiction. And that perspective should reshape the way we think about the problem of killing animals for food. What if it's not a choice, in any meaningful way, but a disease of the human hive mind? Then the problems for solving the problem, as you see in this conversation, might be very different. In particular, maybe the key to creating change is cultivating a sense of openness, for all of us collectively to admit our mistakes, rather than assigning blame or cultivating shame. UnChainedTV.com - Jane's platform and app for animal rightsTrust in media hits new lowMusic by Moby: Everything That Rises

It's not every day that a puppet dog is attacked on national television at an award's ceremony. But that's exactly what happened 20 years ago, when the musician Moby was insulted and threatened by the rapper Eminem, who proceeded to also assault a puppet dog on live TV. As the world processes what happened with Will Smith and Chris Rock at the Academy Awards, I thought it'd be interesting to talk to Moby about his experience from 2002. And the conversation gave me a new perspective on the Smith/Rock fight. While in many ways that fight is just one trivial feud, it lends insight into deeper questions about the human condition: Are the conflicts we go through biological, or cultural? Are human beings inherently violent, or can we evolve beyond it? And what hope is there for the future, when not just celebrities but entire nations can't seem to stop themselves from literally beating and even killing one another? These and many other questions are discussed, and tentatively answered, in this conversation with Moby. And I think you'll be as fascinated as I was by some of his responses: dark, at times; hilarious, at others; but always, above all, deep and provocative.Music by Moby: Everything That Rises

A few weeks ago, Noah Smith, an economist who writes for Bloomberg and on Substack, wrote one of the most important blogs I've read about the crisis in Ukraine. And it was all about food. You see, Ukraine and Russia make up a whopping 25% of all wheat exports in the world. And while most of the world has been talking about guns and gas prices, Noah has pointed out the obvious: while we can do without gas (and might prefer to have fewer guns), the world can't go without food. Yet that may be what the war in Ukraine forces some nations to do. And if people can't eat, they will revolt. Noah explains why this crisis will drive the price of food up, and what we can do about it. But the conversation also goes in an unexpected direction. Because when we start discussing how we can solve the problems of the food system – including shifting people away from the ecological and ethical destruction of the meat industry – we come to what seems like an irreconcilable disagreement. Noah believes that activists, even ones as prominent as Greta Thunberg, have utterly failed. Their inability to recognize the struggles of ordinary people, and to focus on converting the elites who drive most policy, has made their efforts mostly useless. I, in contrast, believe that we live in an age where activists and movements are ascendent, precisely because movements have ignored the power of so-called elites and focused on mobilizing masses of ordinary people. Who's right? And what does the data show? If you're interested in questions of not just food policy, but wealth and poverty, or war and peace, this conversation will hopefully lend some insight. And, by the end, I think we reached a synthesis of sorts. Perhaps elites are the vehicle through which systemic change must be driven. But perhaps activism is the only way for us to convince the elites to give an issue – whether it's food prices or animal rights – the importance it deserves.The Ukraine War and the price of bread - Noah Smith on Substack"Hexapodia" Is the Key Insight: by Noah Smith & Brad DeLongNoah Smith on TwitterNoah Smith - Bloomberg Opinion ColumnMusic by Moby: Everything That Rises

In 2013, I co-founded a ragtag grassroots outfit called Direct Action Everywhere. We did street theater in grocery stores and silly flash mobs in Louis Vuitton and spoke truth to power wherever we could, even when our voices would shake. And while we earned some fans for our passion, most of the mainstream media, and even the world of nonprofit activism, scoffed at us. The things we were asking for – a world where every living creatures is safe and free; a transformation of our political system towards compassion and away from corporate profit – seemed somewhere between stupid and delusional. Dr. Drew brought us on his new national television show at Headline News, and mocked us for being obsessed with chickens.But Donny Moss, a long-time journalist and public relations expert with blood as blue as blue can be (Ivy League credentials; Big Pharma alum), did something very different. He listened. And something odd happened: he liked what he heard. Donny and Jane Velez-Mitchell, a former news anchor who Donny partnered with in the early 2010s, gave us a platform when few others wouldn't. And I never really understood why. Donny lived in a beautiful apartment in the best part of Manhattan. He was married to the general counsel for one of the largest corporations in the world. His life seemed so perfect and successful and normal. Why would he start associating with, well, someone like me?This conversation explains why. Donny, you see, went through a massive personal challenge (and transformation) in the years before he was a journalist and activist. He was a young gay man, in the late 80s and 90s, at the height of the AIDS pandemic. But unlike the gay men mobilizing in the streets to ACT UP and fight back, as powerful men laughed at them (and their friends and lovers wasted away and died), Donny worked for a major pharmaceutical company that was the target of protests. But, secretly, while working for their enemy, his heart was with the underdog. His heart was with the people on the streets. I think that's what Donny saw in me and DxE. We were earnest and angry, but we wore our hearts on our sleeves. And it's why, a few years later, he decided he wanted to do more than just share our story. He walked with us into a massive factory farm and walked out with a sick and tortured animal in his arms – and then broadcast everything he did on his news platform, Their Turn, at great personal risk. This is a fascinating conversation with one of my favorite people in the world. And there's a lot to learn – about privilege, about courage, about change. Give it a listen, and let me know what you think!Read Donny Moss' journalism on Theirturn.netMusic by Moby: Everything That Rises

Professor Steven Fish is a political scientist at UC Berkeley who has spent decades studying Russia, Putin, and the rise of authoritarianism. But before he was a political scientist, he was a young student visiting Russia on a tourist visa. And while there, he noticed something odd: people were lying to him. He knew they were lying to him. They knew they were lying to him. And they knew that he knew they were lying to him. But they told the lies anyway. It was mutually assured bulls__, lies that become so endemic and obvious that no one even bothers to point out that they are lies. That odd experience in the mid 1980s is instructive of where we are today: on the brink of nuclear war. Because it shows what can happen when a government, insistent on accepting only the “party line” – i.e., the version of the facts established by the people in power – becomes detached from reality. Driving the Russian aggression in Ukraine is a belief that Ukraine is simply a part of Russia, a false belief driven by decades of bulls__ that was never checked. But this conversation has relevance far beyond the crisis in Ukraine. We are, after all, facing an age of unprecedented misinformation, but also unprecedented demands to follow the party line. That's dangerous for our nation's ability to grapple with any of the major decisions in the coming years. If people can't speak candidly about what they actually think and believe, due to fear of reprisal, then how will we have any confidence that we're not making a catastrophic mistake? Steve walks us through how this all happened in Russia. A Faustian bargain with Russian oligarchs over a BBQ. A political ideology of Russian grievance that became so powerful that it drowned out opposing views. And a political elite in Russia that now lives in terror of breaking with the party line. But what he shares also has lessons for us here at home. Are we living in a society of mutually assured bulls___, where people are saying things because they're expected to say them, and not because they believe them? And if so, what can we do about it?Democracy Derailed in Russia: The Failure of Open Politics (Cambridge, 2005)Democracy from Scratch: Opposition and Regime in the New Russian Revolution (Princeton, 1995)Postcommunism and the Theory of Democracy (Princeton, 2001)Music by Moby: Everything That Rises

Briahna Joy Gray, who served as national press secretary for the Bernie Sanders presidential campaign, triggered a firestorm when she announced that she would not be voting for Joe Biden in April 2020. Many, including her former boss, criticized her unwillingness to moderate her political views to fight a common enemy: Donald Trump. This is why it's surprising to many that Gray also has been one of the most powerful critics of so-called “identity politics.” Identity politics, which is defined by the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy as “political activity and theorizing founded in the shared experiences of injustice of members of certain social groups,” has become ascendant in modern American political life, especially on the Left. Yet, as a Black woman who was too “radical” for Joe Biden, Gray has denounced the exclusive focus on identity as, ironically, detrimental to people from marginalized identities. This conversation explains why. It also offers a fascinating personal journey. You see, Gray could have lived a very successful and peaceful life as a corporate lawyer. She graduated from Harvard Law School and went on to work for a white shoe law firm. But she started moonlighting as a journalist and, within months, ended up sitting in a car with Bernie interviewing him about his historic 2016 campaign to be President of the United States. And when Bernie witnessed her power as a communicator, he sought her out to be his spokesperson when he ran again in 2020 – and shocked the establishment by nearly becoming the first socialist President in American history. Briahna had a front seat position on that ride, and there's much to learn about that from anyone interested in change. Bad Faith - Briahna Joy Gray podcastMusic by Moby: Everything That Rises

What happens when the full power of the state comes after you, for exposing nightmarish abuse at factory farms? If you're Kecia Doolittle or Matt Johnson, you fight back – and you win. Kecia is a founder of Project Counterglow, a grassroots initiative to create a nationwide map of factory farms. Matt Johnson is a core organizer for the animal rights network Direct Action Everywhere (DxE), and lead investigator in an effort to expose the brutal extermination procedures used by pig farms at the height of COVID-19. Both Kecia and Matt's work was discussed in the Iowa legislature when it passed a so-called “Ag Gag” law that targeted animal rights activists for, among other things, posting videos about abuses unfolding in factory farms. And both Kecia and Matt were also later charged with serious crimes for that work. But they fought back, and they won. This conversation will give you the story behind the story. That includes the bizarre excuses given by Iowa law enforcement for their failure to even investigate credible reports of extreme animal cruelty, including roasting animals alive. The strange motions filed by the government – including their effort to paint the image of a smiling single mother as a terrorist threat – in the days before trial. And the exhilarating moment when, after being persecuted by his own government for nearly 2 years, Matt realized that all charges would be dropped literally one day before trial. There are lessons here for anyone who's facing unfair persecution, whether by the government or otherwise. Maybe the most important one is this: understand that your sacrifice has a purpose. But this conversation is also interesting to me because of the personal side of things. You see, Matt and Kecia were not just an activist team when they investigated Iowa pig farming from 2019-2020. They were dating, too. And what you see in this conversation is the complexity of working together with people who are not just part of a movement, but part of a real, human community. That includes all the complexity and messiness and beauty that human communities and relationships will inevitably have. The fact that their friendship remains so strong, years later and even in the face of criminal prosecution, has lessons for us all. Project Counterglow - A map of all factory farms in the U.S.Music by Moby: Everything That Rises

In August 2017, I received a phone call that changed my life. “Wayne, there are FBI agents here,” the voice said. “They're searching for Lily.” For years, DxE had been openly rescuing animals and daring the industry or government to prosecute us for rescuing dying animals from factory farms. We knew repression was going to come. What we didn't know is that it would start with a multi-state hunt for a piglet named Lily that would end in an FBI raid at a sanctuary in Colorado. Shaleen Shan is the owner of the sanctuary in question, Luvin Arms in Erie Colorado. And until now, Shaleen has not told his story publicly. Shaleen, you see, is not a rule breaker. And when a small armada of FBI agents descended on his sanctuary that day, he faced a choice that could change his life – and the course of the animal rights movement. Stay silent and cooperate with the government, to ensure the safety of his sanctuary, his business, and even his family. Or speak out and face the full power of the largest pig farming corporation in the world – Smithfield Foods – and its government allies. I would have understood taking the former choice. Shaleen is a business owner, a husband and father, and a nonprofit director; he didn't sign up for direct action or legal repression. But Shaleen did something that, increasingly, people across the world are realizing they have the power to do. He spoke out. And because he fought back and spoke out – resisting the agents' violent efforts to “collect DNA” from Lily and her sister, then speaking to a legendary journalist to blow the whistle on what happened – millions of people were exposed to not just the corrupt influence of corporate power on our government, but on the plight of pigs like Lily. This is a podcast I've wanted to do for years. And as we end one pig trial, it's time for us to tell the story of the next one. And in the fight against Smithfield, which sought unprecedented racketeering charges against me in May 2018, Shaleen's story will be crucial. The FBI's Hunt for Two Missing Piglets Reveals the Federal Cover-Up of Barbaric Factory Farms - Glenn GreenwaldLuvin Arms Sanctuary in ColoradoMusic by Moby: Everything That Rises

In just 9 days, one of the most important trials in animal rights history will begin. My friend Matt Johnson faces a felony charge for saving the life of a sick baby pig, and exposing one of the most disturbing episodes of animal torture in recent memory: ventilation shutdown (VSD) at Iowa Select Farms, or ISF. The practice of VSD, which involves shutting down the vents in a building and pumping in hot steam, leads to hours of torment before the animals die. And for working with an employee at ISF to blow the whistle on this practice, Matt is facing 8 years in prison. This is wrong on so many levels. But to understand why this is happening, we have to understand the deep and systemic roots of animal exploitation. And that's why this conversation I had with Matt and Jon Frohnmayer is so important. Matt and Jon, you see, are not your prototypical animal rights activists. Matt grew up in rural Iowa surrounded by pig farms, and still has family members in the industry. Jon's dad was the Republican Attorney General of Oregon, where he prosecuted a case involving the Animal Liberation Front. Both were deeply entrenched in the system – but they got out. This conversation will show you how and why. Now we have to try to help an Iowa jury understand that, too. This is the make or break year, not just for animal rights defendants, but for the movement. If we can show the world that even residents of rural Iowa won't stand for practices like VSD, it'll send shockwaves through the system. If, in contrast, Matt goes to prison for blowing the whistle on one of the most horrific cases of animal torture in history, it'll be a stark indication of a corrupt system. But no matter what happens in 9 days, making change will depend on a mass of people raising their voice together. Change, in other words, depends on you. Hidden Video and Whistleblower Reveal Gruesome Mass-Extermination Method for Iowa Pigs Amid Pandemic - The InterceptAFTER PORK GIANT WAS EXPOSED FOR CRUEL KILLINGS, THE FBI PURSUED ITS CRITICS - The InterceptMusic by Moby: Everything That Rises

Around the year 2004, I decided I was going to devote myself to an immense project: veganizing the University of Chicago. I had seen one too many slaughterhouse videos and was suffering from night terrors with images of animals being torn to pieces alive. And the U of C (which is what Chicago grads call the school) was a quirky place where people believed and did weird things. I was further convinced by the conventional wisdom at the time: that around 1-2% of people who took a leaflet about veganism would be converted. It seemed like a numbers game. And so I got to work, baking vegan chocolate chip cookies and handing out vegan leaflets until the impossible happened. Sadly, the impossible was not a vegan U of C. The impossible was me getting sick of chocolate chip cookies, after baking thousands and eating hundreds myself. The people I gave to the cookies rarely if ever gave me any indication that they were going vegan. I wish I had known then what I know now about organizational change. But part of the reason I've learned the things I've learned is because of research by people like Prof. Mary McDonnell at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School of Management. McDonnell has done something interesting with her career: she went to business school (and now teaches at one) to understand how activists, including employee activists, can change the largest corporations in the world. That might seem strange. But McDonnell makes a good point: to truly understand how to change an organization, you need to have some understanding of how it works from the inside. And what's she found, in her research of organizational change in corporations, is that you can't change things if you go it alone. Forming committees, teams, or other sub-groupings of the corporation is crucial to show that this is a collective effort, and not just the fringe view of one radical individual. So what I really needed back in 2004 was not more vegan cookies. I needed to use those cookies to try to win me some friends!There are a ton of other fascinating insights from this conversation, many of which have parallels in the research on political science, e.g., understanding the “turncoat” phenomenon and how it can super chage organizational change. But I can't really do the conversation justice in a short blog. Give it a listen, and let me know what you learned.

I went into trial in North Carolina with big ambitions: arguing in court, for the first time in my life, that animals are not property, but living creatures with rights.But that came crashing to a halt in the first few minutes of my opening statement. The judge cut me off, ordered the jurors out of the courtroom, and threatened to remove me from representing myself (and possibly send me to jail) if I continued to make the case for animal rights.The judge, you see, had ruled on Day 1 of the trial that the dire medical emergency facing the animals was not relevant to the trial. Because of that, witnesses to what happened at the farm, including even me, could not testify about the medical care needed by the animals.This was simply a case about whether a goat was stolen, the prosecution argued. How they were treated before that point was simply irrelevant. And, in direct violation of my constitutional rights, the judge agreed – and denied us a right to a full and complete defense in court.“If I can't say why I was there, you might as well lock me up right now,” I said.And, on numerous occasions, that nearly happened.But it didn't. And somehow, though I was convicted of two felonies, I managed to get through this trial with no prison time, and with unprecedented media attention for the right to rescue.The backstory of how this all unfolded hasn't really been told. And that's why I invited my friend and attorney Jon Frohnmayer – whose family has a fascinating history at the intersection of repression, environmentalism, and animal rights – onto the Green Pill podcast to discuss what happened, and why.You'll hear about the dramatic moments where Jon and I feared we might end with a mistrial.You'll hear about how the jurors in court were moved, either to hate us (perhaps to the point of wishing violence against me) or love us, for our compassion towards animals.And you'll hear Jon and I engage in some philosophical speculation about why people behave how they do. Maybe, we say to one another, everything in life just comes down to the fear of death.So many have asked us what happened at trial. If you're looking for answers, give this a podcast a listen – and share it with a friend, if you like what you hear.Music by Moby: Everything That Rises

My best friend was born to kill. It was not her choice, and perhaps not her fault. But she has a history of violence that would make a serial killer squirm.There was the time she ripped open someone's head and left their ear hanging from a string of skin. Or the time that she grabbed her victim's throat so tightly that the screams went silent. It was like someone hit the mute button on a horror movie.But perhaps the worst incident occurred in my own home. I came back to my apartment one day to blood on the kitchen floor. I heard whimpering from the bedroom.“What hell is going on!”I rushed in and saw my best friend's sister on the ground, with her face sliced half open. I rushed her to the hospital where her cheek was surgically rebuilt. The perpetrator showed no remorse for the attack.You might be wondering why I am friends with someone like this. The easiest answer is that my best friend is a dog — to be precise, an American Staffordshire Terrier rescued from a dog fighting circle — and so are her victims.But the easiest answer is often not the best one. And here is the right answer: Lisa is my best friend because she taught me what it means to love.Read Wayne's other writings here (Substack)Music by Moby: Everything That Rises

Duncan Watts, the Stevens University Professor at the University of Pennsylvania, is a living legend. HIs paper, Collective Dynamics of Small-World Networks, is one of the most cited papers in the history of sociology. (There are Nobel Prize winners who have fewer citations in their career than that single paper by Duncan.) And while his name is not well known outside of academia, he has transformed multiple disciplines with his path breaking work in what is now known as “network science” – a blend of computer science, sociology, and mathematics that has changed the way we think about human behavior. And by “we”, I include me. As a young and aspiring social scientist in the early 2000s, I came across Duncan's work and was blown away by what it seemed to show. Human beings, it seemed, operated as if they were just nodes in a network. And you could no more understand the behavior of a single human, in isolation, than you could understand the human brain by looking at a single neuron. It was the connections between us, and not our individual characteristics, that drive change. And it turns out that, when we look at those connections, human beings are far closer to each other than you might think. Indeed, no matter how big a society gets, human beings seem to follow a rule that has been described as Six Degrees of Separation. This insight, and Duncan's other work on networks, led me down a strange and circuitous path, from law professor to animal rights activist. You'll hear about this in the podcast. But the most important application of his work, in my life, was the formation of the grassroots animal rights network Direct Action Everywhere, or DxE. You see, Duncan's research on networks showed that it wasn't necessarily the most connected people –the Oprah Winfreys or the Barack Obamas – who were driving change. Rather, it was networks of easy-to-activate ordinary people who were causing cascades of change. DxE was an attempt to deploy this research to build a movement for animal rights. This conversation is particularly important right now. I am in my second day of trial, in a felony trial that could land me in prison for years. But the industry, which is attempting to cut the head off the snake, is destined to fail. The reason is simple: they simply don't understand how social change works. It's not the leaders, but the masses of people who form the movement that the leaders represent, who ultimately drive change. And when you take out one leader, new leaders rise up. That is one of the many reasons why, no matter what happens in this trial, the movement will win.There are a lot of other practical tips, about living a good and productive life, that you'll get from this podcast. For example, you'll learn how to think about risk. And how creativity stems from unexpected social connections. And how a legendary social scientist maintains his intellectual humility. But maybe the most important thing we can learn is to stay open. Especially when people are making efforts to hurt you – including imprisonment, in my case – it's easy to stay closed off. But Duncan's work shows us that it's the connections we make, and not the ones we close off, that will ultimately create change. Small Worlds: The Dynamics of Networks between Order and RandomnessSix Degrees: The Science of a Connected AgeEverything Is Obvious: How Common Sense Fails UsMusic by Moby: Everything That Rises

Today I'm in preliminary hearings in Sonoma County, California, relating to the mass open rescue of dozens of dying animals from some of the largest factory farms in the nation. In less than two weeks, I'll face my first felony trial in Transylvania County, North Carolina, where I'm being prosecuted for seeking to protect a baby goat named Rain, who was sick and destined to be killed. It can often feel like all the forces of government are against us – not to mention the rest of society – which is why it's so important to talk to people like Evan Wolfson, the legendary gay rights activist and lawyer who predicted almost 40 years ago that gay marriage would become a constitutional right. You see, Evan's story shows us that, when an idea's time has come, nothing can stop change. In 1983, as a young Harvard law student, Evan wrote a thesis arguing that gay marriage is constitutional right. Most lawyers and scholars scoffed at his argument. He had trouble finding professors who would advise him on his paper. And even many in the movement thought his vision was too radical, and too big.But Evan believed that marriage was the defining campaign of the gay rights movement. It represented everything LGBTQ folks at the time dreamed of – for their love to be celebrated, and legally recognized, rather than shunned. And he was right. Gay marriage became the law of the land when, in 2015, the Supreme Court ruled that it was every citizen's constitutional right. There's so much more Evan shares in this podcast, from his personal adventures in Togo to the bitter infighting that nearly tore him from the movement. But above all, as we approach trial, Evan's words teach us that we have to hold the vision in our hearts, even as powerful institutions try to destroy us. If we do that, even the moments that seem like defeats will ultimately take us down the path to victory.Freedom to Marry Why Marriage Matters: America, Equality, and Gay People's Right to MarryMusic by Moby: Everything That Rises

Leighton Woodhouse is a journalist, video producer, and dear friend – and one of the sharpest people I know. Shant Mesrobian is a former Obama staffer who, along with Leighton, has become a key voice in what I call the “post-left” critique of the modern Democratic Party. You see, both Leighton and Shant come from classic leftist backgrounds: labor organizing, progressive journalism, etc. But they both have reached the conclusion that the modern Democratic Party, captured by corporate and elite interests, is harnessing identity politics to trample on the working class. You don't have to agree with them – I don't – to think their critique is worth listening to. And there is some troubling data to suggest there's merit to their argument. For example, of the 10 most wealthy congressional districts, 100% – every single one! – is now a Democratic bastion. Is the modern “left” becoming a movement controlled by power and wealth? I don't think that's the case, as I argue in the podcast. But there are real risks that Leighton and Shant are pointing out. And if we're not mindful of them, we could truly see progressive movements captured by corporate interests, and a reversal of political alignments that doesn't just shake up our political traditions. It could very well lead to a violent populist uprising.Read Leighton Woodhouse - SubstackRead Shant Mesrobian - SubstackMusic by Moby: Everything That Rises

“It seems odd that we would just let the world burn.” That was the title for a piece Ezra Klein wrote for the New York Times a few months ago. And it captures a truth about our civilization's trajectory. If we don't act — and act urgently — all life on earth is at risk. Yet, even with Democrats in power, action on climate change has been nonexistent. We are watching as the world burns. But not all of us. Alex Marquardt is co-founder of a group that defends the climate by defending the activists risking everything to save it. And his experiences, from suing Harvard as a law student to defending activists blocking fossil fuel transit lines, should give us all hope for the future — and teach us how change actually happens. (Hint: it's typically not at elite institutions like Harvard.) The last week has been a hard one, as many of you who follow me probably know. I lost someone very important to me. But if there's a solution to grief, it's hope. And I'm proud to share this podcast today because so much of what Alex shares gives me hope for the future.The Climate Defense ProjectThe Backlash Effect, Michael KlarmanMusic by Moby: Everything That Rises

Soon the state will be presenting evidence against Priya Sawhney regarding an alleged “conspiracy” to burglarize and steal animals from some of the largest factory farms in the U.S., including Petaluma Poultry – the largest organic poultry producer in the nation. All of the animals from Petaluma Poultry were unable to stand. Some had rotting, gaping wounds, including some so deep and necrotic that we could see their exposed bone. This was verified by the state's own veterinarian, yet instead of charging the company, one of the largest in Sonoma County, California, the government has come after Priya and others (including me) for setting up a veterinary tent and giving the animals care. The comic book villainy in this case would almost be funny if it didn't have dire consequences. First, Priya and I face felony charges and potentially years in prison. But second, and more importantly, the government's response here shows how the industry and government are acting to manipulate the public – what Priya calls “projection” – into supporting practices that, if they saw them first hand, would inspire outrage and horror. But the projection goes deeper than that. Because it's not just lies about facts. It's a lie about who we are, as a community, as a species, and as individual human beings. I don't want to say too much more because it'll give way what unfolds in this podcast. Give it a listen. I think you'll enjoy it as much as I did. And you'll see why, like so many, I am inspired by Priya every day, and honored to have her as a co-founder of DxE, and a dear friend. The Intercept Video on PriyaDxE's First Open Rescue “Truth Matters”Photo of Priya above from Philip Montgomery, Wired MagazineMusic by Moby: Everything That Rises

Justin Marceau is an anomaly. He grew up in rural Montana, in a family that raised animals on their own property. Yet he is now a leading advocate for animal rights. He went to the Air Force Academy to become a pilot. Yet he went to Harvard Law School to study ways to challenge our government and now defends people who take direct action – breaking laws where necessary. But perhaps most curiously, he is a lawyer in a nation with the highest incarceration rate in the world. Yet he does not believe in any traditional notion of “punishment.”It's hard to explain how much of a departure this is from conventional legal thinking. Our entire system of justice is built on the idea that incarceration and other forms of punishment are crucial to stopping wrongdoing. But what if that idea is all wrong? What if the evidence on punishment shows that, in many cases, it just reinforces the very wrongs that it is trying to correct? Animal cruelty is the example we discuss in this podcast. But the logic here is both deeper and broader than that. Justin asks us to reimagine justice, and in the process, we may just have to reimagine ourselves. That's precisely what Justin did. And we can learn something not just from his important intellectual work, including his recent book Beyond Cages, but from his personal story of change. Beyond Cages: Animal Law and Criminal Punishment (Justin Marceau's book)Palliative Animal Law: The War on Animal Cruelty - Harvard Law ReviewMusic by Moby: Everything That Rises

It's a strange time to be talking positively about sacrifice. Over the past year, so many people have lost their businesses, their communities, even their lives. And it seems absurd, perhaps even offensive, to draw something good from that sacrifice. But that's exactly what we need to do, on both a personal and collective level, to make progress. And Matt Johnson is one of the best people I can think of to talk about that. Matt was living a pretty normal life, and a pretty comfortable life, in his home state of Iowa when he first heard about Direct Action Everywhere. But that ordinary existence was jolted when Matt, a lifetime vegetarian in a sea of animal farming, saw people taking chances to make the world a better place. But I don't think anyone could have predicted the dramatic transformation that Matt would go through, after seeing a single protest at a Chipotle on social media. From topless protests of Bernie Sanders to investigations of ventilation shutdown, Matt has been one of the biggest newsmakers in animal rights history. The most important thing we can hear from here, however, is on the power of sacrifice. I have met few people, maybe not any, more willing to give whatever it takes to help make the world a better place. And while that is often a hard thing -- you'll hear my voice shaking, and tears come to my eyes, as I talk to Matt about the challenges he's facing -- it also brings a joy, of sorts, that cannot be matched by any other experience in the world. This is a long one, but it's a good one. Listen to the end. You won't regret it.

Almira Tanner is the Lead Organizer of Direct Action Everywhere (DxE). At first glance, she might not be who you picture when you hear “leader of radical animal liberation network.” Growing up in verdant Vancouver, Canada, she went straight from kindergarten through grad school, finished as valedictorian of her undergraduate class, never stepped out of line, and—God forbid—never had any run-ins with the law. So how did this mild-mannered, upright kid grow up to become the animal agriculture industry's most feared enemy? In this episode, Wayne and Almira uncover what drove her to leave her career, her country, and her comfort behind, only to live a life of voluntary indigence with the prospect of imprisonment. They discuss what it's like to be at the helm of a social movement, the need to balance community relationships and enforce professional standards, and what it takes to be a true leader and agent of change. This is an Uprising: How Nonviolent Revolt is Shaping the 21st Century – Paul & Mark Engler Delivering Happiness: A Path to Profits, Passion, and Purpose – Tony Hsieh Every Twelve Seconds – Timothy Pachirat Why David Sometimes Wins – Marshall Gantz Donate to DxE Music by Moby: Everything That Rises

Hadar Aviram—legal scholar, author, and human and animal rights activist—is the Thomas Miller Professor at UC Hastings College of the Law. She holds law and criminology degrees from Hebrew University of Jerusalem and a Ph.D. in Jurisprudence and Social Policy from UC Berkeley, where she studied as a Fulbright Fellow and a Regents Intern. Hadar specializes in criminal justice and civil rights from a socio-legal perspective. Prior to her illustrious career as one of the world's premier scholars and media commentators on criminal justice, Hadar worked in the trenches as a public defender in Israel. In this episode, Wayne and Hadar talk about the national reckoning over police brutality and racism; the culture of toxic masculinity permeating police departments; the science behind pervasive implicit bias and tribalistic tendencies that develop in the first few years of our lives; and the moral licensing that helps us justify our bad behavior. How do we solve this? Well, there may be no magic bullet, but Wayne and Hadar reveal some key steps we can take—as individuals, as societies—to move us in the right direction. “There is no one thing that is a magic bullet that is going to fix the horrors that we're seeing in American streets.” “We're all marinating in stereotypes.” Judge Richard Posner Hadar's most recent book (2020) - Yesterday's Monsters: The Manson Family Cases and the Illusion of Parole Hadar's book (2019) - The Legal Process and the Promise of Justice Hadar's first book (2015) - Cheap On Crime Recession: Era Politics and the Transformation of American Punishment Just Babies: The Origins of Good And Evil - Paul Bloom (2014) Identity Crisis: The 2016 Presidential Campaign and the Battle for the Meaning of America - John Sides, Michael Tesler, and Lynn Vavreck (2018) Music by Moby: Everything That Rises

Randy Shaw is the co-founder of the Tenderloin Housing Clinic, author of five books, and has been one of the Bay Area's leading community organizers on tenants' rights, housing, and homelessness for the past 40 years. Randy, in short, is a fountain of knowledge and knows what works when it comes to solving one the nation's most pressing problems. In this episode, Wayne and Randy explore the roots of the Bay Area's--and the nation's--housing crisis. They look into past ballot measures, California politics, policies, and voting behaviors that have shaped our current housing predicament. They talk about taxation, Joe Biden's housing plan, Obama's political failures, the power of grassroots local activism, and what ordinary people can do to create change. Randy also answers the key question: how can we end homelessness in the U.S., for good? “Don't be distracted by all the noise.” “We need to keep people connected to the issues and fighting AFTER the election.” The Tenderloin Housing Clinic in San Francisco Randy's Book – Beyond the Fields: Cesar Chavez, the UFW, and the Struggle for Justice in the 21st Century Randy's Book – The Tenderloin: Sex, Crime and Resistance in the Heart of San Francisco Randy's new Book – Generation Priced Out Randy's Book – The Activist Handbook Music by Moby: Everything That Rises