Podcasts about houseplants

Houseplants are popular, but they aren't always easy to grow. In this episode, we'll share tips for keeping your houseplants healthy and help you get started with indoor gardening.Sources for Show Notes:    Find your local UF/IFAS Extension office:    https://sfyl.ifas.ufl.edu/find-your-local-office/    In Polk County, contact the Plant Clinic at 863-519-1041, polkmg@ifas.ufl.edu    Your Central Florida page https://centralfloridayard.substack.com/     Follow us on Instagram and Facebook @PolkGardening  Toxic and Non-Toxic Plants List: https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/animal-poison-control/toxic-and-non-toxic-plants Houseplants Light Requirements and Selecting Appropriate Plants: https://gardeningsolutions.ifas.ufl.edu/pdf/houseplant-list.pdf Light for Houseplants: https://gardeningsolutions.ifas.ufl.edu/plants/houseplants/light-for-houseplants/   Podcast introduction and closing music: "Green Beans" by Big Score Audio.

Want a bushier houseplant? Here are some scientifically proven tips for branching, plus info about light, holding off on repotting a plant, and more! For soil and other incredible houseplant supplies, check out ohhappyplants.shop!

Hydrangea ID, house plants with Busy B, and excitement about fireflies and pollinators

What are your plants dreaming about right now? Is it a new moss pole, repot, or pruning job? Maybe they'd just like you to notice the spider mite issue that has suddenly become a real problem due to higher temps? Here's a discussion of plant behavior, summertime considerations, and more!

Ben Atkind is back on the Pod on this final installment of my series of interviews from @northlands.live, and I couldn't be more psyched about this one!!  I caught up with Ben on the last day at the amazing Northlands Music & Arts Festival, and it's a fitting way to end what was a super fun weekend of insane jams, positive vibes and connecting with friends both new and old.Ben is a well-known and celebrated drummer and simply an awesome human whom I'm honored to call a friend. Ben attended Berklee College of Music and was the drummer in Goose, of which he is a founding member.  He has since left that band and moved on to new ventures, namely his new home with the stellar Louisville-based band @houseplantjams, along with his continued involvement in long-time project @elephantproof.Ben talks to me about the journey that has been his career to date, including his somewhat tumultuous departure from Goose, and how he has now found a place where he is truly happy, doing exactly what he wants to do, and most importantly, doing it with the people he loves.This is yet another epic interview from an equally epic festival weekend, and you're not going to want to miss this one!!  -----------------------------------Show Notes:For more information about Northlands Music & Arts Festival, click here Click here for Houseplant tour datesFollow Roadcase on Instagram here:  @Roadcasepod--------------------------------Episode Chapters:00:00 Introduction to Road Case and Northlands Festival02:39 Ben Atkin: Journey from Goose to Houseplant05:36 The Life of a Touring Musician08:12 Transitioning to New Projects: Elephant Proof and Houseplant11:22 The Dynamics of Band Relationships14:17 Balancing Multiple Musical Endeavors16:57 The Joy of Live Performance18:50 Finding Happiness in Music22:05 The Evolution of Ben's Musical Style24:51 Plans for Houseplant and Future Tours27:38 Personal Growth and Industry Insights29:46 Reflections on Touring and Music Community32:47 Final Thoughts and Future Aspirations-------------------------------------For more information on Roadcase:https://linktr.ee/roadcasepod and https://www.roadcasepod.comOr contact Roadcase by email:  info@roadcasepod.comRoadcase theme music:  "Eugene (Instrumental)" by Waltzer

I'm quite happy to touch on this little trouble inside the house: what is a good spot to grow certain plants? Julie and I have been struggling to get a few Orchids growing inside. One of them is Phalaenopsis —the Moth Orchid— and another one is Oncidium, especially the “Kandy Dancer” I fell in love with when working in Sri Lanka. Both are a real pain to get going: tried a north-facing window, an eastern aspect, west, and nothing worked to get these plants growing, let alone flowering!! The Irony is that our daughter just chucked them in a south facing bay windowsill and simply couldn't stop them flowering! They get a few seconds of morning sun, are covered in steam (it's a kitchen bay window), and often get warm ovens heating the site. Guess what! We tried it too: south bay window in kitchen, etc, etc. Fertilised them with Orchid Food, spoke to them, read stories at night, etc, ect... NOTHING! Yes, we read the books and reduced the moisture regime, got solid fertiliser, liquid fertiliser, extra Potash, no potash, more Nitrogen, less Nitrogen, saw their root zones and decided that Phosphate might be the answer... NADA! Our south side bay window is filled with thriving plants, everything grows brilliantly here, except the bloody Orchids! We finally did get a little bit of hope from an Oncidium cutting (no comment on the origin of that cutting, by the way). Our next attempt: west window, afternoon sun every day, etc, etc. It's tiny, but it's alive! The point is that sometimes these things happen when you try to grow certain specimens, they don't always follow the suggestions in the book. The fertiliser regime is quite often hyped-up and the commonest method of killing your plants is by simply over-watering the plants and their roots. So… try some neglect. Water them when you realise you've forgotten to do so for months! And when your daughter asks, “what is fertiliser?” try not to get shitty, just learn from that and embrace another tactic. LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The ONE thing that made the biggest difference to my plants across nearly 30 years of houseplant tending is consistency - and when you have late-diagnosed AuDHD, it's extra apparent. Listen in for practical tips to get you more consistent, plus extras: discussion of subirrigation, spider mite treatment, soil nutrients and nitrogen-induced tip burn, self-forgiveness when caring for plants in early widowhood, and more. Also, for the next two weeks, get a FREE quart of V's Mix for every $50 spent at https://ohhappyplants.shop - this soil is absolutely MAGICAL and I'd love for you to have some!

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Let's be real—nobody warned us how fast this hobby can spiral. One minute you're picking up a pothos at the grocery store, the next you're knee-deep in rare plant auctions and budgeting for grow lights. In this episode, we're talking about the 10 things we wish we knew before we started our plant journeys—beyond the basic care tips. From the hidden costs of plant care and the pressure of social media trends, to the way your collection can quietly take over your home (and your wallet), we're breaking down the real-life lessons we've learned along the way. This one's for anyone who's ever said, “I'm just getting one plant.”

Let's be real—nobody warned us how fast this hobby can spiral. One minute you're picking up a pothos at the grocery store, the next you're knee-deep in rare plant auctions and budgeting for grow lights. In this episode, we're talking about the 10 things we wish we knew before we started our plant journeys—beyond the basic care tips. From the hidden costs of plant care and the pressure of social media trends, to the way your collection can quietly take over your home (and your wallet), we're breaking down the real-life lessons we've learned along the way. This one's for anyone who's ever said, “I'm just getting one plant.”

Plants not only respond to sound and music but also seem to possess memory and sensitivity. They react to injury and can communicate chemically. If God gave plants this much care, how much more does He care for you? To support this ministry financially, visit: https://www.oneplace.com/donate/1232/29

Learn about bromeliad watering, root systems, soils, and more!

Looking for the best DIY soil mix for microgreens, raised beds, gardens or houseplants? This cheap and easy recipe has boosted my yields like crazy, improved flavor, and extended shelf life across every crop I grow. After growing over 250,000 trays of microgreens and helping farms across North America, this is the #1 soil blend I trust—and you can mix it in under 5 minutes with just two ingredients. Whether you're growing: -Microgreens like sunflower, pea, radish, or amaranth -Raised bed veggies, fruits and herbs -Indoor plants that struggle with soggy soil or slow growth... This all-purpose soil recipe is designed to support strong roots, retain moisture without waterlogging, and feed your plants organically for weeks—no synthetic chemicals, no guesswork. Great for beginners and pros alike Organic-approved fertilizer Works in trays, pots, and garden beds Watch the full video to learn the exact ratios, why it works, and how to make it at home in under 5 minutes. If you found this helpful, like the video, subscribe, and leave a comment. FREE RESOURCES:

Here's a question from an OHP member about snake plants and stress blooms. To join the FREE member community, visit https://members.OhHappyPlants....

Join us as we hang out with Kaylin and poke around her plant shelf, checking for scale (the dreaded plant pest) and getting into some real talk along the way.

Tonight on GeekNights, we consider the keeping of houseplants. In the news, the fascists are going after Harvard, but Harvard is fighting back in multiple ways. I recommend the free course "U.S. Public Policy: Social, Economic, and Foreign Policies." More interesting is the (not free) Public Leadership Credential. Long Island City finally has good bagels, and next week brings us a bunch of exiting nerd stuff including John Wick: Ballerina, The Phoenician Scheme, and Deltarune. Also Rym got a 1/4 scale Dig Dug machine.Related LinksForum ThreadHouseplantsDiscord ChatHouseplantsBluesky PostHouseplantsThings of the DayRym - PizzaScott - Real Real Japan

Lots of people think some houseplants just grow slowly, but usually it's our care (or something else that's fixable). Here are a bunch of solutions, including a discussion of soil testing and veggie garden corrections :)

Do you have a water softener? You could be killing your leaves with sodium toxicity! Full description and solutions in the episode. Products available at https://ohhappyplants.shop - FREE member site at https://members.ohhappyplants.... :)

That's right — we spend this entire episode shaming our plants. We air the grievances, call out the divas, and roast the green freeloader who's been sitting in the same pot for three years doing absolutely nothing. No one is safe. But beneath the drama, there's a real conversation about expectations, projection, and what it means to care for something that doesn't always give back the way we want. Come for the petty plant rants, stay for the subtle self-reflection.

Got grey spots of mold in your begonia? Love planty shenanigans? Want fast-growing hoyas that bloom like crazy? This is the episode for you! Products mentioned are available at https://ohhappyplants.shop

In this episode of Data in Biotech, host Ross Katz speaks with Patrick Torbey, CEO and Co-Founder of Neoplants, about using genetic engineering and microbiome innovation to tackle indoor air pollution. Patrick explains how Neoplants is turning everyday houseplants into powerful air purifiers using synthetic biology, offering insights into VOC degradation, enzyme pathways, and data-driven R&D. ​​What You'll Learn in This Episode: How genetically modified plants and microbiomes can reduce indoor air pollution by targeting VOCs like formaldehyde and benzeneThe scientific and engineering challenges of modifying indoor plants at the genomic levelWhy data-driven testing and simulation are critical to optimizing plant function and user impactThe role of synthetic biology in creating sustainable, scalable biotech productsPatrick's vision for solving climate challenges through engineered plant ecosystems ​​Meet Our Guest: Patrick Torbey is the CEO and Co-Founder of Neoplants, a Paris-based biotech startup engineering plants to purify indoor air. With a PhD in genetic editing and deep expertise in synthetic biology, Patrick leads Neoplants in building functional, aesthetically unique, and sustainable plant systems for the future. About The Host: Ross Katz is the Principal Data Scientist at CorrDyn. He brings decades of experience across biotech, energy, and non-profit sectors, with a focus on building smarter data systems, machine learning pipelines, and actionable insights for complex industries. Connect with Our Guest: Sponsor: CorrDyn, a data consultancyFind out more about NeoplantsConnect with Patrick Torbey on LinkedIn Connect with Us: Follow the podcast for more insightful discussions on the latest in biotech and data science.Subscribe and leave a review if you enjoyed this episode!

In recent years, concerns about indoor air quality have gained significant attention, particularly as people spend more time in enclosed spaces. Traditional air purification methods, such as filters and electronic devices, often come with limitations, including noise, energy consumption, and maintenance requirements. However, a groundbreaking solution has emerged from the field of synthetic biology: bioengineered bacteria that enhance the air-purifying capabilities of houseplants. This innovative approach not only leverages the natural processes of plants but also introduces a new layer of biological engineering to tackle harmful air pollutants effectively. At the forefront of this revolutionary technology is Neoplants, a synthetic biology company that has developed a product known as Power Drops.The Science Behind Bioengineered BacteriaThis product contains bioengineered bacteria designed to thrive in symbiosis with common houseplants, enhancing their ability to absorb harmful airborne compounds such as benzene, formaldehyde, toluene, and xylene. These pollutants are prevalent in many indoor environments, often emanating from household products, furniture, and building materials. The bacteria, when introduced to the soil of the plants, form a microbiome that works continuously to purify the air without the need for electricity or mechanical filters.The process is straightforward: users mix the bacteria powder with water and apply it to the soil of their plants. This method not only simplifies the air purification process but also integrates seamlessly into the daily care of houseplants, making it accessible for a broad audience. The bacteria establish a stable community with the plants, functioning effectively for about a month before requiring reapplication to maintain optimal performance.The Motivation Behind the InnovationThe motivation for developing bioengineered bacteria for air purification stems from a desire to harness the power of genetics for positive environmental impact. As Patrick, the co-founder and CEO of Neoplants, explains, the inspiration came from recognizing the natural abilities of plants to absorb carbon dioxide and release oxygen. The goal was to enhance this natural process, enabling plants to absorb more harmful substances that pose risks to human health. This innovative thinking reflects a broader trend in biotechnology, where scientists aim to use genetic engineering not just for theoretical advancements but for tangible benefits in everyday life.Advantages Over Traditional Air Purification MethodsOne of the most significant advantages of using bioengineered bacteria in conjunction with plants is the sustainability of the solution. Unlike traditional air purifiers that require electricity, filters, and regular maintenance, the bacteria operate passively, providing a natural and low-maintenance alternative. This method also aligns with the growing consumer interest in sustainable and eco-friendly products, as it reduces reliance on mechanical devices that contribute to energy consumption.Moreover, incorporating plants into the air purification process adds aesthetic value to indoor spaces. Houseplants have long been associated with improved mental well-being and productivity, and combining their natural beauty with enhanced air purification creates a dual benefit for homeowners and office workers alike.Future Prospects and DevelopmentsNeoplants has ambitious plans for the future, with intentions to genetically engineer the plants themselves to further enhance their air-purifying capabilities. This next step could revolutionize the way we think about indoor air quality, potentially leading to the development of plants that can naturally absorb a wider range of pollutants more efficiently.As the market for indoor air quality solutions continues to expand, products like Power Drops represent a significant advancement in our understanding of how biological systems can be optimized for human benefit. By merging synthetic biology with everyday household practices, we can pave the way for innovative solutions that not only improve air quality but also promote a healthier living environment.ConclusionIn conclusion, the advent of bioengineered bacteria for cleaner air by Neoplants marks a significant milestone in the intersection of technology and environmental health. By enhancing the natural abilities of plants, this innovative approach offers a sustainable, efficient, and aesthetically pleasing solution to indoor air pollution. As we continue to grapple with environmental challenges, such advancements remind us of the potential that lies within nature and the power of scientific innovation to create a healthier future.You can get your Power Drops from Neoplants on their web store for as low as $5 each.Interview by Scott Ertz of F5 Live: Refreshing Technology.Sponsored by: Get $5 to protect your credit card information online with Privacy. Amazon Prime gives you more than just free shipping. Get free music, TV shows, movies, videogames and more. The most flexible tools for podcasting. Get a 30 day free trial of storage and statistics.

In recent years, concerns about indoor air quality have gained significant attention, particularly as people spend more time in enclosed spaces. Traditional air purification methods, such as filters and electronic devices, often come with limitations, including noise, energy consumption, and maintenance requirements. However, a groundbreaking solution has emerged from the field of synthetic biology: bioengineered bacteria that enhance the air-purifying capabilities of houseplants. This innovative approach not only leverages the natural processes of plants but also introduces a new layer of biological engineering to tackle harmful air pollutants effectively. At the forefront of this revolutionary technology is Neoplants, a synthetic biology company that has developed a product known as Power Drops.The Science Behind Bioengineered BacteriaThis product contains bioengineered bacteria designed to thrive in symbiosis with common houseplants, enhancing their ability to absorb harmful airborne compounds such as benzene, formaldehyde, toluene, and xylene. These pollutants are prevalent in many indoor environments, often emanating from household products, furniture, and building materials. The bacteria, when introduced to the soil of the plants, form a microbiome that works continuously to purify the air without the need for electricity or mechanical filters.The process is straightforward: users mix the bacteria powder with water and apply it to the soil of their plants. This method not only simplifies the air purification process but also integrates seamlessly into the daily care of houseplants, making it accessible for a broad audience. The bacteria establish a stable community with the plants, functioning effectively for about a month before requiring reapplication to maintain optimal performance.The Motivation Behind the InnovationThe motivation for developing bioengineered bacteria for air purification stems from a desire to harness the power of genetics for positive environmental impact. As Patrick, the co-founder and CEO of Neoplants, explains, the inspiration came from recognizing the natural abilities of plants to absorb carbon dioxide and release oxygen. The goal was to enhance this natural process, enabling plants to absorb more harmful substances that pose risks to human health. This innovative thinking reflects a broader trend in biotechnology, where scientists aim to use genetic engineering not just for theoretical advancements but for tangible benefits in everyday life.Advantages Over Traditional Air Purification MethodsOne of the most significant advantages of using bioengineered bacteria in conjunction with plants is the sustainability of the solution. Unlike traditional air purifiers that require electricity, filters, and regular maintenance, the bacteria operate passively, providing a natural and low-maintenance alternative. This method also aligns with the growing consumer interest in sustainable and eco-friendly products, as it reduces reliance on mechanical devices that contribute to energy consumption.Moreover, incorporating plants into the air purification process adds aesthetic value to indoor spaces. Houseplants have long been associated with improved mental well-being and productivity, and combining their natural beauty with enhanced air purification creates a dual benefit for homeowners and office workers alike.Future Prospects and DevelopmentsNeoplants has ambitious plans for the future, with intentions to genetically engineer the plants themselves to further enhance their air-purifying capabilities. This next step could revolutionize the way we think about indoor air quality, potentially leading to the development of plants that can naturally absorb a wider range of pollutants more efficiently.As the market for indoor air quality solutions continues to expand, products like Power Drops represent a significant advancement in our understanding of how biological systems can be optimized for human benefit. By merging synthetic biology with everyday household practices, we can pave the way for innovative solutions that not only improve air quality but also promote a healthier living environment.ConclusionIn conclusion, the advent of bioengineered bacteria for cleaner air by Neoplants marks a significant milestone in the intersection of technology and environmental health. By enhancing the natural abilities of plants, this innovative approach offers a sustainable, efficient, and aesthetically pleasing solution to indoor air pollution. As we continue to grapple with environmental challenges, such advancements remind us of the potential that lies within nature and the power of scientific innovation to create a healthier future.You can get your Power Drops from Neoplants on their web store for as low as $5 each.Interview by Scott Ertz of F5 Live: Refreshing Technology.Sponsored by: Get $5 to protect your credit card information online with Privacy. Amazon Prime gives you more than just free shipping. Get free music, TV shows, movies, videogames and more. The most flexible tools for podcasting. Get a 30 day free trial of storage and statistics.

In this episode, we dive into the Epipremnum genus—home to some of the most popular and beginner-friendly houseplants, like the golden pothos (Epipremnum aureum) and its dazzling variegated cousins. Learn how to distinguish between cultivars, what makes them so adaptable indoors, and how to help them thrive in your space. Whether you're a new plant parent or a seasoned collector, this deep dive into Epipremnum will leave you seeing pothos in a whole new light.

In today's episode, I go over the most expensive houseplants and other times this has occurred in history.Thanks for listening! You can support this podcast with the support link below or check out my merch store here - Plant School Merch - https://tenney-plants.creator-spring.com/Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or answer the question on Spotify and you may be highlighted on my next episode to win!Follow me; Instagram - @plantschoolpodcastYouTube - Tenney Plants ChannelBlog - www.tenneyplants.comPinterest - Tenney PlantsEmail me! - tenneyplants@gmail.com

Send us a textYMGP has found a new product that we think you are going to love! It's just recently been released and we are all on the ground floor. But don't be fooled the by packaging, it's not a gardener's lotion, but as colorful as the bottle is, it's a plant fertilizer!So simple to use, not only will the beginner like the mild 7-7-7 no burn formula, but the experienced gardener will like the quick 4 pumps and disperse! Check out our interview with Sam Niemann, the inventor, researcher... well, the Mr. Everything of BLEUME!https://growbleume.com/Black Diamond Garden CentersWelcome Black Diamond Nursery & Lawn Service. We been a local business in Toledo for over 70 years!Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Support the showBlack Diamond Garden Centers; Toledo, Perrysburg and now Waterville Ohio!https://blackdiamondgrows.com/Please visit our Facebook and Instagram links!https://www.facebook.com/yourmidwestgardenpodcast@yourmidwestgardenpodcast

Hi everyone! This one is about inviting pollinators into your space, and a general PSA about the impact of poor estrogen metabolism on energy levels and how beef organs can fix the whole problem. No houseplants this time, but you can always make your plants go NUTS with soil from https://OhHappyPlants.shop!

In this weeks episode, Michael is joined by two good friends, Meg and Gemma, as they have a really lovely gossip. These fab ladies have very interesting jobs in the industry, so make sure to listen and find out all about that, as they all put the world to rights, which is rather fun to listen to. Please excuse the bad quality sound, technology was working against us that evening, and Michael was also laying down across two armchairs trying to get the signal out of the window on the Isle of Wight! Enjoy!   Series 18 is sponsored by British Garden Centres. British Garden Centres are the largest family owned, and family run garden centre group in the UK, with over 70 garden centres. “We aim to provide you with great plants and gardening products at affordable prices, with a first-class service delivered by a passionate team.” – The Stubbs Family.  With garden centres offering plants, food  and gift areas, outdoor living, Christmas departments, restaurants, homeware and so much more. All garden centres are pet friendly, and many welcome coach parties. The business also boasts a variety of retail partners across the group inside each garden centre. www.britishgardencentres.com

Tips on selecting house plants, orchid care, and calls about moles tunneling, and growing agave in Atlanta

The internet is loaded with DIY hacks for your houseplants that seem too simple or bizarre to be true. As your trusted plant people, we look at a few of the claims that have popped into our social media feeds to see if they are actually true or false. 

You have to fertilize less than you think, so save some money and the environment by watching this video.

Have you seen those trendy companies that sell pseudo-fancy soil for aroids, but the only thing in it is big chunks? Here's why to avoid this!

In this episode, we're getting to the root of a topic that's often overlooked but absolutely essential—pots for houseplants. From terracotta to plastic, self-watering to decorative cachepots, we break down the pros and cons of different materials and styles, and how your choice of pot can affect your plant's health, growth, and even watering needs. Whether you're team drainage hole or just want your plants to look cute on the shelf, we've got practical tips to help you choose the best pot for every plant in your collection.

It's a plant chat!

Rain is back and well needed- that last deluge all ran off.  Still no morels found but Acorn did see asparagus in the garden today!5 lil' honkers off to their new home, more eggs in the incubator and some still under an actual goose.  Acorn rescued an egg from a black snake, may think about bringing in the other eggs for artificial incubation if the gooses don't settle down on them.House is getting cleaned, screens up in the windows, meals on the porch.  Houseplants back outside. Now to get the rest of the garden planted!

Is dry air the silent killer of your houseplants? In this episode, we're diving into the world of humidity—what it is, why it matters, and how to tell if your plants are craving more of it. From crispy leaf edges to stubborn brown tips, we break down the telltale signs of humidity stress and share practical tips for boosting moisture in your plant space. Whether you're a misting enthusiast or wondering if a pebble tray actually does anything, we've got you covered. Show art courtesy of @Plantflix

We sat down with Houseplant to dig into their roots, talk about their unique blend of genres, and the recent show with Ben Atkind and look forward to their upcoming run with him starting next week. From songwriting and sonic exploration to live performance energy, this is a full-band conversation you won't want to miss. *Official Website:* http://www.houseplantjams.com/ *Bandcamp:* http://houseplantjams.bandcamp.com/ *Facebook:*   /    Hit subscribe for more in-depth artist interviews every week.

In today's episode, Kari dives into two unconventional detox modalities that you may not have considered—lymphatic drainage and the surprisingly powerful act of buying houseplants! We'll explore how these practices can support your body and mind, providing a natural boost to your wellness routine. First, we'll unpack the science behind lymphatic drainage, its benefits for detoxifying your body, and how to incorporate it into your self-care routine. Then, we'll take a detour into the world of houseplants, and how these green companions can help purify your environment and support emotional well-being. Whether you're looking to give your body a reset or transform your home into a healing sanctuary, this episode has something for everyone! Welcome to The Well Community! Get METAPRW oil Kari discussed today Join our FACEBOOK COMMUNITY for more support and encouragement to refill daily with faith, self care, health, wellness and essential oil education! Follow Kari on Insta JOIN ME IN THE FASTER WAY TO FAT LOSS PROGRAM with my coach Lynzi! Join our email list and get a FREE morning routine guide  Essential oils- thewellteam.com/essentialoils Email hello@thewellteam.com Schedule a free 30 minute consult for potential coaching with Kari VISIT WWW.THEWELLTEAM.COM for all coaching programs, blog and essential oil education!

Ever wondered how your leafy friends survive the journey through the mail? In this episode, we're getting into the nitty-gritty of shipping houseplants—from packaging tips and seasonal precautions to choosing the right carriers and keeping roots happy in transit. Whether you're a seller, swapping with a fellow plant lover, or just curious how your online plant orders make it to your door, this episode has all the leafy logistics you need.

Are you running out of space for new plants but just can't stop collecting? We get it! In this episode, we explore smart and stylish ways to maximize your plant space—without feeling overwhelmed. From vertical gardens and hanging planters to multipurpose furniture and unexpected nooks, we'll share creative solutions to help you fit more greenery into your home. Whether you're in a small apartment or just looking to optimize your plant display, this episode is packed with tips to help you expand your indoor jungle.

Learn about causes of different types of leaf yellowing, soil mushrooms vs slime mold, and then it's a long discussion about different kinds of intentional community building, “independence as trauma response” that we all carry, and ideas about building interconnected communities right where we are ❤️

If you're in SF: Join us for the Claude Plays Pokemon hackathon this Sunday!If you're not: Fill out the 2025 State of AI Eng survey for $250 in Amazon cards!We are SO excited to share our conversation with Dharmesh Shah, co-founder of HubSpot and creator of Agent.ai.A particularly compelling concept we discussed is the idea of "hybrid teams" - the next evolution in workplace organization where human workers collaborate with AI agents as team members. Just as we previously saw hybrid teams emerge in terms of full-time vs. contract workers, or in-office vs. remote workers, Dharmesh predicts that the next frontier will be teams composed of both human and AI members. This raises interesting questions about team dynamics, trust, and how to effectively delegate tasks between human and AI team members.The discussion of business models in AI reveals an important distinction between Work as a Service (WaaS) and Results as a Service (RaaS), something Dharmesh has written extensively about. While RaaS has gained popularity, particularly in customer support applications where outcomes are easily measurable, Dharmesh argues that this model may be over-indexed. Not all AI applications have clearly definable outcomes or consistent economic value per transaction, making WaaS more appropriate in many cases. This insight is particularly relevant for businesses considering how to monetize AI capabilities.The technical challenges of implementing effective agent systems are also explored, particularly around memory and authentication. Shah emphasizes the importance of cross-agent memory sharing and the need for more granular control over data access. He envisions a future where users can selectively share parts of their data with different agents, similar to how OAuth works but with much finer control. This points to significant opportunities in developing infrastructure for secure and efficient agent-to-agent communication and data sharing.Other highlights from our conversation* The Evolution of AI-Powered Agents – Exploring how AI agents have evolved from simple chatbots to sophisticated multi-agent systems, and the role of MCPs in enabling that.* Hybrid Digital Teams and the Future of Work – How AI agents are becoming teammates rather than just tools, and what this means for business operations and knowledge work.* Memory in AI Agents – The importance of persistent memory in AI systems and how shared memory across agents could enhance collaboration and efficiency.* Business Models for AI Agents – Exploring the shift from software as a service (SaaS) to work as a service (WaaS) and results as a service (RaaS), and what this means for monetization.* The Role of Standards Like MCP – Why MCP has been widely adopted and how it enables agent collaboration, tool use, and discovery.* The Future of AI Code Generation and Software Engineering – How AI-assisted coding is changing the role of software engineers and what skills will matter most in the future.* Domain Investing and Efficient Markets – Dharmesh's approach to domain investing and how inefficiencies in digital asset markets create business opportunities.* The Philosophy of Saying No – Lessons from "Sorry, You Must Pass" and how prioritization leads to greater productivity and focus.Timestamps* 00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome* 02:29 Dharmesh Shah's Journey into AI* 05:22 Defining AI Agents* 06:45 The Evolution and Future of AI Agents* 13:53 Graph Theory and Knowledge Representation* 20:02 Engineering Practices and Overengineering* 25:57 The Role of Junior Engineers in the AI Era* 28:20 Multi-Agent Systems and MCP Standards* 35:55 LinkedIn's Legal Battles and Data Scraping* 37:32 The Future of AI and Hybrid Teams* 39:19 Building Agent AI: A Professional Network for Agents* 40:43 Challenges and Innovations in Agent AI* 45:02 The Evolution of UI in AI Systems* 01:00:25 Business Models: Work as a Service vs. Results as a Service* 01:09:17 The Future Value of Engineers* 01:09:51 Exploring the Role of Agents* 01:10:28 The Importance of Memory in AI* 01:11:02 Challenges and Opportunities in AI Memory* 01:12:41 Selective Memory and Privacy Concerns* 01:13:27 The Evolution of AI Tools and Platforms* 01:18:23 Domain Names and AI Projects* 01:32:08 Balancing Work and Personal Life* 01:35:52 Final Thoughts and ReflectionsTranscriptAlessio [00:00:04]: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Small AI.swyx [00:00:12]: Hello, and today we're super excited to have Dharmesh Shah to join us. I guess your relevant title here is founder of Agent AI.Dharmesh [00:00:20]: Yeah, that's true for this. Yeah, creator of Agent.ai and co-founder of HubSpot.swyx [00:00:25]: Co-founder of HubSpot, which I followed for many years, I think 18 years now, gonna be 19 soon. And you caught, you know, people can catch up on your HubSpot story elsewhere. I should also thank Sean Puri, who I've chatted with back and forth, who's been, I guess, getting me in touch with your people. But also, I think like, just giving us a lot of context, because obviously, My First Million joined you guys, and they've been chatting with you guys a lot. So for the business side, we can talk about that, but I kind of wanted to engage your CTO, agent, engineer side of things. So how did you get agent religion?Dharmesh [00:01:00]: Let's see. So I've been working, I'll take like a half step back, a decade or so ago, even though actually more than that. So even before HubSpot, the company I was contemplating that I had named for was called Ingenisoft. And the idea behind Ingenisoft was a natural language interface to business software. Now realize this is 20 years ago, so that was a hard thing to do. But the actual use case that I had in mind was, you know, we had data sitting in business systems like a CRM or something like that. And my kind of what I thought clever at the time. Oh, what if we used email as the kind of interface to get to business software? And the motivation for using email is that it automatically works when you're offline. So imagine I'm getting on a plane or I'm on a plane. There was no internet on planes back then. It's like, oh, I'm going through business cards from an event I went to. I can just type things into an email just to have them all in the backlog. When it reconnects, it sends those emails to a processor that basically kind of parses effectively the commands and updates the software, sends you the file, whatever it is. And there was a handful of commands. I was a little bit ahead of the times in terms of what was actually possible. And I reattempted this natural language thing with a product called ChatSpot that I did back 20...swyx [00:02:12]: Yeah, this is your first post-ChatGPT project.Dharmesh [00:02:14]: I saw it come out. Yeah. And so I've always been kind of fascinated by this natural language interface to software. Because, you know, as software developers, myself included, we've always said, oh, we build intuitive, easy-to-use applications. And it's not intuitive at all, right? Because what we're doing is... We're taking the mental model that's in our head of what we're trying to accomplish with said piece of software and translating that into a series of touches and swipes and clicks and things like that. And there's nothing natural or intuitive about it. And so natural language interfaces, for the first time, you know, whatever the thought is you have in your head and expressed in whatever language that you normally use to talk to yourself in your head, you can just sort of emit that and have software do something. And I thought that was kind of a breakthrough, which it has been. And it's gone. So that's where I first started getting into the journey. I started because now it actually works, right? So once we got ChatGPT and you can take, even with a few-shot example, convert something into structured, even back in the ChatGP 3.5 days, it did a decent job in a few-shot example, convert something to structured text if you knew what kinds of intents you were going to have. And so that happened. And that ultimately became a HubSpot project. But then agents intrigued me because I'm like, okay, well, that's the next step here. So chat's great. Love Chat UX. But if we want to do something even more meaningful, it felt like the next kind of advancement is not this kind of, I'm chatting with some software in a kind of a synchronous back and forth model, is that software is going to do things for me in kind of a multi-step way to try and accomplish some goals. So, yeah, that's when I first got started. It's like, okay, what would that look like? Yeah. And I've been obsessed ever since, by the way.Alessio [00:03:55]: Which goes back to your first experience with it, which is like you're offline. Yeah. And you want to do a task. You don't need to do it right now. You just want to queue it up for somebody to do it for you. Yes. As you think about agents, like, let's start at the easy question, which is like, how do you define an agent? Maybe. You mean the hardest question in the universe? Is that what you mean?Dharmesh [00:04:12]: You said you have an irritating take. I do have an irritating take. I think, well, some number of people have been irritated, including within my own team. So I have a very broad definition for agents, which is it's AI-powered software that accomplishes a goal. Period. That's it. And what irritates people about it is like, well, that's so broad as to be completely non-useful. And I understand that. I understand the criticism. But in my mind, if you kind of fast forward months, I guess, in AI years, the implementation of it, and we're already starting to see this, and we'll talk about this, different kinds of agents, right? So I think in addition to having a usable definition, and I like yours, by the way, and we should talk more about that, that you just came out with, the classification of agents actually is also useful, which is, is it autonomous or non-autonomous? Does it have a deterministic workflow? Does it have a non-deterministic workflow? Is it working synchronously? Is it working asynchronously? Then you have the different kind of interaction modes. Is it a chat agent, kind of like a customer support agent would be? You're having this kind of back and forth. Is it a workflow agent that just does a discrete number of steps? So there's all these different flavors of agents. So if I were to draw it in a Venn diagram, I would draw a big circle that says, this is agents, and then I have a bunch of circles, some overlapping, because they're not mutually exclusive. And so I think that's what's interesting, and we're seeing development along a bunch of different paths, right? So if you look at the first implementation of agent frameworks, you look at Baby AGI and AutoGBT, I think it was, not Autogen, that's the Microsoft one. They were way ahead of their time because they assumed this level of reasoning and execution and planning capability that just did not exist, right? So it was an interesting thought experiment, which is what it was. Even the guy that, I'm an investor in Yohei's fund that did Baby AGI. It wasn't ready, but it was a sign of what was to come. And so the question then is, when is it ready? And so lots of people talk about the state of the art when it comes to agents. I'm a pragmatist, so I think of the state of the practical. It's like, okay, well, what can I actually build that has commercial value or solves actually some discrete problem with some baseline of repeatability or verifiability?swyx [00:06:22]: There was a lot, and very, very interesting. I'm not irritated by it at all. Okay. As you know, I take a... There's a lot of anthropological view or linguistics view. And in linguistics, you don't want to be prescriptive. You want to be descriptive. Yeah. So you're a goals guy. That's the key word in your thing. And other people have other definitions that might involve like delegated trust or non-deterministic work, LLM in the loop, all that stuff. The other thing I was thinking about, just the comment on Baby AGI, LGBT. Yeah. In that piece that you just read, I was able to go through our backlog and just kind of track the winter of agents and then the summer now. Yeah. And it's... We can tell the whole story as an oral history, just following that thread. And it's really just like, I think, I tried to explain the why now, right? Like I had, there's better models, of course. There's better tool use with like, they're just more reliable. Yep. Better tools with MCP and all that stuff. And I'm sure you have opinions on that too. Business model shift, which you like a lot. I just heard you talk about RAS with MFM guys. Yep. Cost is dropping a lot. Yep. Inference is getting faster. There's more model diversity. Yep. Yep. I think it's a subtle point. It means that like, you have different models with different perspectives. You don't get stuck in the basin of performance of a single model. Sure. You can just get out of it by just switching models. Yep. Multi-agent research and RL fine tuning. So I just wanted to let you respond to like any of that.Dharmesh [00:07:44]: Yeah. A couple of things. Connecting the dots on the kind of the definition side of it. So we'll get the irritation out of the way completely. I have one more, even more irritating leap on the agent definition thing. So here's the way I think about it. By the way, the kind of word agent, I looked it up, like the English dictionary definition. The old school agent, yeah. Is when you have someone or something that does something on your behalf, like a travel agent or a real estate agent acts on your behalf. It's like proxy, which is a nice kind of general definition. So the other direction I'm sort of headed, and it's going to tie back to tool calling and MCP and things like that, is if you, and I'm not a biologist by any stretch of the imagination, but we have these single-celled organisms, right? Like the simplest possible form of what one would call life. But it's still life. It just happens to be single-celled. And then you can combine cells and then cells become specialized over time. And you have much more sophisticated organisms, you know, kind of further down the spectrum. In my mind, at the most fundamental level, you can almost think of having atomic agents. What is the simplest possible thing that's an agent that can still be called an agent? What is the equivalent of a kind of single-celled organism? And the reason I think that's useful is right now we're headed down the road, which I think is very exciting around tool use, right? That says, okay, the LLMs now can be provided a set of tools that it calls to accomplish whatever it needs to accomplish in the kind of furtherance of whatever goal it's trying to get done. And I'm not overly bothered by it, but if you think about it, if you just squint a little bit and say, well, what if everything was an agent? And what if tools were actually just atomic agents? Because then it's turtles all the way down, right? Then it's like, oh, well, all that's really happening with tool use is that we have a network of agents that know about each other through something like an MMCP and can kind of decompose a particular problem and say, oh, I'm going to delegate this to this set of agents. And why do we need to draw this distinction between tools, which are functions most of the time? And an actual agent. And so I'm going to write this irritating LinkedIn post, you know, proposing this. It's like, okay. And I'm not suggesting we should call even functions, you know, call them agents. But there is a certain amount of elegance that happens when you say, oh, we can just reduce it down to one primitive, which is an agent that you can combine in complicated ways to kind of raise the level of abstraction and accomplish higher order goals. Anyway, that's my answer. I'd say that's a success. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk on agent definitions.Alessio [00:09:54]: How do you define the minimum viable agent? Do you already have a definition for, like, where you draw the line between a cell and an atom? Yeah.Dharmesh [00:10:02]: So in my mind, it has to, at some level, use AI in order for it to—otherwise, it's just software. It's like, you know, we don't need another word for that. And so that's probably where I draw the line. So then the question, you know, the counterargument would be, well, if that's true, then lots of tools themselves are actually not agents because they're just doing a database call or a REST API call or whatever it is they're doing. And that does not necessarily qualify them, which is a fair counterargument. And I accept that. It's like a good argument. I still like to think about—because we'll talk about multi-agent systems, because I think—so we've accepted, which I think is true, lots of people have said it, and you've hopefully combined some of those clips of really smart people saying this is the year of agents, and I completely agree, it is the year of agents. But then shortly after that, it's going to be the year of multi-agent systems or multi-agent networks. I think that's where it's going to be headed next year. Yeah.swyx [00:10:54]: Opening eyes already on that. Yeah. My quick philosophical engagement with you on this. I often think about kind of the other spectrum, the other end of the cell spectrum. So single cell is life, multi-cell is life, and you clump a bunch of cells together in a more complex organism, they become organs, like an eye and a liver or whatever. And then obviously we consider ourselves one life form. There's not like a lot of lives within me. I'm just one life. And now, obviously, I don't think people don't really like to anthropomorphize agents and AI. Yeah. But we are extending our consciousness and our brain and our functionality out into machines. I just saw you were a Bee. Yeah. Which is, you know, it's nice. I have a limitless pendant in my pocket.Dharmesh [00:11:37]: I got one of these boys. Yeah.swyx [00:11:39]: I'm testing it all out. You know, got to be early adopters. But like, we want to extend our personal memory into these things so that we can be good at the things that we're good at. And, you know, machines are good at it. Machines are there. So like, my definition of life is kind of like going outside of my own body now. I don't know if you've ever had like reflections on that. Like how yours. How our self is like actually being distributed outside of you. Yeah.Dharmesh [00:12:01]: I don't fancy myself a philosopher. But you went there. So yeah, I did go there. I'm fascinated by kind of graphs and graph theory and networks and have been for a long, long time. And to me, we're sort of all nodes in this kind of larger thing. It just so happens that we're looking at individual kind of life forms as they exist right now. But so the idea is when you put a podcast out there, there's these little kind of nodes you're putting out there of like, you know, conceptual ideas. Once again, you have varying kind of forms of those little nodes that are up there and are connected in varying and sundry ways. And so I just think of myself as being a node in a massive, massive network. And I'm producing more nodes as I put content or ideas. And, you know, you spend some portion of your life collecting dots, experiences, people, and some portion of your life then connecting dots from the ones that you've collected over time. And I found that really interesting things happen and you really can't know in advance how those dots are necessarily going to connect in the future. And that's, yeah. So that's my philosophical take. That's the, yes, exactly. Coming back.Alessio [00:13:04]: Yep. Do you like graph as an agent? Abstraction? That's been one of the hot topics with LandGraph and Pydantic and all that.Dharmesh [00:13:11]: I do. The thing I'm more interested in terms of use of graphs, and there's lots of work happening on that now, is graph data stores as an alternative in terms of knowledge stores and knowledge graphs. Yeah. Because, you know, so I've been in software now 30 plus years, right? So it's not 10,000 hours. It's like 100,000 hours that I've spent doing this stuff. And so I've grew up with, so back in the day, you know, I started on mainframes. There was a product called IMS from IBM, which is basically an index database, what we'd call like a key value store today. Then we've had relational databases, right? We have tables and columns and foreign key relationships. We all know that. We have document databases like MongoDB, which is sort of a nested structure keyed by a specific index. We have vector stores, vector embedding database. And graphs are interesting for a couple of reasons. One is, so it's not classically structured in a relational way. When you say structured database, to most people, they're thinking tables and columns and in relational database and set theory and all that. Graphs still have structure, but it's not the tables and columns structure. And you could wonder, and people have made this case, that they are a better representation of knowledge for LLMs and for AI generally than other things. So that's kind of thing number one conceptually, and that might be true, I think is possibly true. And the other thing that I really like about that in the context of, you know, I've been in the context of data stores for RAG is, you know, RAG, you say, oh, I have a million documents, I'm going to build the vector embeddings, I'm going to come back with the top X based on the semantic match, and that's fine. All that's very, very useful. But the reality is something gets lost in the chunking process and the, okay, well, those tend, you know, like, you don't really get the whole picture, so to speak, and maybe not even the right set of dimensions on the kind of broader picture. And it makes intuitive sense to me that if we did capture it properly in a graph form, that maybe that feeding into a RAG pipeline will actually yield better results for some use cases, I don't know, but yeah.Alessio [00:15:03]: And do you feel like at the core of it, there's this difference between imperative and declarative programs? Because if you think about HubSpot, it's like, you know, people and graph kind of goes hand in hand, you know, but I think maybe the software before was more like primary foreign key based relationship, versus now the models can traverse through the graph more easily.Dharmesh [00:15:22]: Yes. So I like that representation. There's something. It's just conceptually elegant about graphs and just from the representation of it, they're much more discoverable, you can kind of see it, there's observability to it, versus kind of embeddings, which you can't really do much with as a human. You know, once they're in there, you can't pull stuff back out. But yeah, I like that kind of idea of it. And the other thing that's kind of, because I love graphs, I've been long obsessed with PageRank from back in the early days. And, you know, one of the kind of simplest algorithms in terms of coming up, you know, with a phone, everyone's been exposed to PageRank. And the idea is that, and so I had this other idea for a project, not a company, and I have hundreds of these, called NodeRank, is to be able to take the idea of PageRank and apply it to an arbitrary graph that says, okay, I'm going to define what authority looks like and say, okay, well, that's interesting to me, because then if you say, I'm going to take my knowledge store, and maybe this person that contributed some number of chunks to the graph data store has more authority on this particular use case or prompt that's being submitted than this other one that may, or maybe this one was more. popular, or maybe this one has, whatever it is, there should be a way for us to kind of rank nodes in a graph and sort them in some, some useful way. Yeah.swyx [00:16:34]: So I think that's generally useful for, for anything. I think the, the problem, like, so even though at my conferences, GraphRag is super popular and people are getting knowledge, graph religion, and I will say like, it's getting space, getting traction in two areas, conversation memory, and then also just rag in general, like the, the, the document data. Yeah. It's like a source. Most ML practitioners would say that knowledge graph is kind of like a dirty word. The graph database, people get graph religion, everything's a graph, and then they, they go really hard into it and then they get a, they get a graph that is too complex to navigate. Yes. And so like the, the, the simple way to put it is like you at running HubSpot, you know, the power of graphs, the way that Google has pitched them for many years, but I don't suspect that HubSpot itself uses a knowledge graph. No. Yeah.Dharmesh [00:17:26]: So when is it over engineering? Basically? It's a great question. I don't know. So the question now, like in AI land, right, is the, do we necessarily need to understand? So right now, LLMs for, for the most part are somewhat black boxes, right? We sort of understand how the, you know, the algorithm itself works, but we really don't know what's going on in there and, and how things come out. So if a graph data store is able to produce the outcomes we want, it's like, here's a set of queries I want to be able to submit and then it comes out with useful content. Maybe the underlying data store is as opaque as a vector embeddings or something like that, but maybe it's fine. Maybe we don't necessarily need to understand it to get utility out of it. And so maybe if it's messy, that's okay. Um, that's, it's just another form of lossy compression. Uh, it's just lossy in a way that we just don't completely understand in terms of, because it's going to grow organically. Uh, and it's not structured. It's like, ah, we're just gonna throw a bunch of stuff in there. Let the, the equivalent of the embedding algorithm, whatever they called in graph land. Um, so the one with the best results wins. I think so. Yeah.swyx [00:18:26]: Or is this the practical side of me is like, yeah, it's, if it's useful, we don't necessarilyDharmesh [00:18:30]: need to understand it.swyx [00:18:30]: I have, I mean, I'm happy to push back as long as you want. Uh, it's not practical to evaluate like the 10 different options out there because it takes time. It takes people, it takes, you know, resources, right? Set. That's the first thing. Second thing is your evals are typically on small things and some things only work at scale. Yup. Like graphs. Yup.Dharmesh [00:18:46]: Yup. That's, yeah, no, that's fair. And I think this is one of the challenges in terms of implementation of graph databases is that the most common approach that I've seen developers do, I've done it myself, is that, oh, I've got a Postgres database or a MySQL or whatever. I can represent a graph with a very set of tables with a parent child thing or whatever. And that sort of gives me the ability, uh, why would I need anything more than that? And the answer is, well, if you don't need anything more than that, you don't need anything more than that. But there's a high chance that you're sort of missing out on the actual value that, uh, the graph representation gives you. Which is the ability to traverse the graph, uh, efficiently in ways that kind of going through the, uh, traversal in a relational database form, even though structurally you have the data, practically you're not gonna be able to pull it out in, in useful ways. Uh, so you wouldn't like represent a social graph, uh, in, in using that kind of relational table model. It just wouldn't scale. It wouldn't work.swyx [00:19:36]: Uh, yeah. Uh, I think we want to move on to MCP. Yeah. But I just want to, like, just engineering advice. Yeah. Uh, obviously you've, you've, you've run, uh, you've, you've had to do a lot of projects and run a lot of teams. Do you have a general rule for over-engineering or, you know, engineering ahead of time? You know, like, because people, we know premature engineering is the root of all evil. Yep. But also sometimes you just have to. Yep. When do you do it? Yes.Dharmesh [00:19:59]: It's a great question. This is, uh, a question as old as time almost, which is what's the right and wrong levels of abstraction. That's effectively what, uh, we're answering when we're trying to do engineering. I tend to be a pragmatist, right? So here's the thing. Um, lots of times doing something the right way. Yeah. It's like a marginal increased cost in those cases. Just do it the right way. And this is what makes a, uh, a great engineer or a good engineer better than, uh, a not so great one. It's like, okay, all things being equal. If it's going to take you, you know, roughly close to constant time anyway, might as well do it the right way. Like, so do things well, then the question is, okay, well, am I building a framework as the reusable library? To what degree, uh, what am I anticipating in terms of what's going to need to change in this thing? Uh, you know, along what dimension? And then I think like a business person in some ways, like what's the return on calories, right? So, uh, and you look at, um, energy, the expected value of it's like, okay, here are the five possible things that could happen, uh, try to assign probabilities like, okay, well, if there's a 50% chance that we're going to go down this particular path at some day, like, or one of these five things is going to happen and it costs you 10% more to engineer for that. It's basically, it's something that yields a kind of interest compounding value. Um, as you get closer to the time of, of needing that versus having to take on debt, which is when you under engineer it, you're taking on debt. You're going to have to pay off when you do get to that eventuality where something happens. One thing as a pragmatist, uh, so I would rather under engineer something than over engineer it. If I were going to err on the side of something, and here's the reason is that when you under engineer it, uh, yes, you take on tech debt, uh, but the interest rate is relatively known and payoff is very, very possible, right? Which is, oh, I took a shortcut here as a result of which now this thing that should have taken me a week is now going to take me four weeks. Fine. But if that particular thing that you thought might happen, never actually, you never have that use case transpire or just doesn't, it's like, well, you just save yourself time, right? And that has value because you were able to do other things instead of, uh, kind of slightly over-engineering it away, over-engineering it. But there's no perfect answers in art form in terms of, uh, and yeah, we'll, we'll bring kind of this layers of abstraction back on the code generation conversation, which we'll, uh, I think I have later on, butAlessio [00:22:05]: I was going to ask, we can just jump ahead quickly. Yeah. Like, as you think about vibe coding and all that, how does the. Yeah. Percentage of potential usefulness change when I feel like we over-engineering a lot of times it's like the investment in syntax, it's less about the investment in like arc exacting. Yep. Yeah. How does that change your calculus?Dharmesh [00:22:22]: A couple of things, right? One is, um, so, you know, going back to that kind of ROI or a return on calories, kind of calculus or heuristic you think through, it's like, okay, well, what is it going to cost me to put this layer of abstraction above the code that I'm writing now, uh, in anticipating kind of future needs. If the cost of fixing, uh, or doing under engineering right now. Uh, we'll trend towards zero that says, okay, well, I don't have to get it right right now because even if I get it wrong, I'll run the thing for six hours instead of 60 minutes or whatever. It doesn't really matter, right? Like, because that's going to trend towards zero to be able, the ability to refactor a code. Um, and because we're going to not that long from now, we're going to have, you know, large code bases be able to exist, uh, you know, as, as context, uh, for a code generation or a code refactoring, uh, model. So I think it's going to make it, uh, make the case for under engineering, uh, even stronger. Which is why I take on that cost. You just pay the interest when you get there, it's not, um, just go on with your life vibe coded and, uh, come back when you need to. Yeah.Alessio [00:23:18]: Sometimes I feel like there's no decision-making in some things like, uh, today I built a autosave for like our internal notes platform and I literally just ask them cursor. Can you add autosave? Yeah. I don't know if it's over under engineer. Yep. I just vibe coded it. Yep. And I feel like at some point we're going to get to the point where the models kindDharmesh [00:23:36]: of decide where the right line is, but this is where the, like the, in my mind, the danger is, right? So there's two sides to this. One is the cost of kind of development and coding and things like that stuff that, you know, we talk about. But then like in your example, you know, one of the risks that we have is that because adding a feature, uh, like a save or whatever the feature might be to a product as that price tends towards zero, are we going to be less discriminant about what features we add as a result of making more product products more complicated, which has a negative impact on the user and navigate negative impact on the business. Um, and so that's the thing I worry about if it starts to become too easy, are we going to be. Too promiscuous in our, uh, kind of extension, adding product extensions and things like that. It's like, ah, why not add X, Y, Z or whatever back then it was like, oh, we only have so many engineering hours or story points or however you measure things. Uh, that least kept us in check a little bit. Yeah.Alessio [00:24:22]: And then over engineering, you're like, yeah, it's kind of like you're putting that on yourself. Yeah. Like now it's like the models don't understand that if they add too much complexity, it's going to come back to bite them later. Yep. So they just do whatever they want to do. Yeah. And I'm curious where in the workflow that's going to be, where it's like, Hey, this is like the amount of complexity and over-engineering you can do before you got to ask me if we should actually do it versus like do something else.Dharmesh [00:24:45]: So you know, we've already, let's like, we're leaving this, uh, in the code generation world, this kind of compressed, um, cycle time. Right. It's like, okay, we went from auto-complete, uh, in the GitHub co-pilot to like, oh, finish this particular thing and hit tab to a, oh, I sort of know your file or whatever. I can write out a full function to you to now I can like hold a bunch of the context in my head. Uh, so we can do app generation, which we have now with lovable and bolt and repletage. Yeah. Association and other things. So then the question is, okay, well, where does it naturally go from here? So we're going to generate products. Make sense. We might be able to generate platforms as though I want a platform for ERP that does this, whatever. And that includes the API's includes the product and the UI, and all the things that make for a platform. There's no nothing that says we would stop like, okay, can you generate an entire software company someday? Right. Uh, with the platform and the monetization and the go-to-market and the whatever. And you know, that that's interesting to me in terms of, uh, you know, what, when you take it to almost ludicrous levels. of abstract.swyx [00:25:39]: It's like, okay, turn it to 11. You mentioned vibe coding, so I have to, this is a blog post I haven't written, but I'm kind of exploring it. Is the junior engineer dead?Dharmesh [00:25:49]: I don't think so. I think what will happen is that the junior engineer will be able to, if all they're bringing to the table is the fact that they are a junior engineer, then yes, they're likely dead. But hopefully if they can communicate with carbon-based life forms, they can interact with product, if they're willing to talk to customers, they can take their kind of basic understanding of engineering and how kind of software works. I think that has value. So I have a 14-year-old right now who's taking Python programming class, and some people ask me, it's like, why is he learning coding? And my answer is, is because it's not about the syntax, it's not about the coding. What he's learning is like the fundamental thing of like how things work. And there's value in that. I think there's going to be timeless value in systems thinking and abstractions and what that means. And whether functions manifested as math, which he's going to get exposed to regardless, or there are some core primitives to the universe, I think, that the more you understand them, those are what I would kind of think of as like really large dots in your life that will have a higher gravitational pull and value to them that you'll then be able to. So I want him to collect those dots, and he's not resisting. So it's like, okay, while he's still listening to me, I'm going to have him do things that I think will be useful.swyx [00:26:59]: You know, part of one of the pitches that I evaluated for AI engineer is a term. And the term is that maybe the traditional interview path or career path of software engineer goes away, which is because what's the point of lead code? Yeah. And, you know, it actually matters more that you know how to work with AI and to implement the things that you want. Yep.Dharmesh [00:27:16]: That's one of the like interesting things that's happened with generative AI. You know, you go from machine learning and the models and just that underlying form, which is like true engineering, right? Like the actual, what I call real engineering. I don't think of myself as a real engineer, actually. I'm a developer. But now with generative AI. We call it AI and it's obviously got its roots in machine learning, but it just feels like fundamentally different to me. Like you have the vibe. It's like, okay, well, this is just a whole different approach to software development to so many different things. And so I'm wondering now, it's like an AI engineer is like, if you were like to draw the Venn diagram, it's interesting because the cross between like AI things, generative AI and what the tools are capable of, what the models do, and this whole new kind of body of knowledge that we're still building out, it's still very young, intersected with kind of classic engineering, software engineering. Yeah.swyx [00:28:04]: I just described the overlap as it separates out eventually until it's its own thing, but it's starting out as a software. Yeah.Alessio [00:28:11]: That makes sense. So to close the vibe coding loop, the other big hype now is MCPs. Obviously, I would say Cloud Desktop and Cursor are like the two main drivers of MCP usage. I would say my favorite is the Sentry MCP. I can pull in errors and then you can just put the context in Cursor. How do you think about that abstraction layer? Does it feel... Does it feel almost too magical in a way? Do you think it's like you get enough? Because you don't really see how the server itself is then kind of like repackaging theDharmesh [00:28:41]: information for you? I think MCP as a standard is one of the better things that's happened in the world of AI because a standard needed to exist and absent a standard, there was a set of things that just weren't possible. Now, we can argue whether it's the best possible manifestation of a standard or not. Does it do too much? Does it do too little? I get that, but it's just simple enough to both be useful and unobtrusive. It's understandable and adoptable by mere mortals, right? It's not overly complicated. You know, a reasonable engineer can put a stand up an MCP server relatively easily. The thing that has me excited about it is like, so I'm a big believer in multi-agent systems. And so that's going back to our kind of this idea of an atomic agent. So imagine the MCP server, like obviously it calls tools, but the way I think about it, so I'm working on my current passion project is agent.ai. And we'll talk more about that in a little bit. More about the, I think we should, because I think it's interesting not to promote the project at all, but there's some interesting ideas in there. One of which is around, we're going to need a mechanism for, if agents are going to collaborate and be able to delegate, there's going to need to be some form of discovery and we're going to need some standard way. It's like, okay, well, I just need to know what this thing over here is capable of. We're going to need a registry, which Anthropic's working on. I'm sure others will and have been doing directories of, and there's going to be a standard around that too. How do you build out a directory of MCP servers? I think that's going to unlock so many things just because, and we're already starting to see it. So I think MCP or something like it is going to be the next major unlock because it allows systems that don't know about each other, don't need to, it's that kind of decoupling of like Sentry and whatever tools someone else was building. And it's not just about, you know, Cloud Desktop or things like, even on the client side, I think we're going to see very interesting consumers of MCP, MCP clients versus just the chat body kind of things. Like, you know, Cloud Desktop and Cursor and things like that. But yeah, I'm very excited about MCP in that general direction.swyx [00:30:39]: I think the typical cynical developer take, it's like, we have OpenAPI. Yeah. What's the new thing? I don't know if you have a, do you have a quick MCP versus everything else? Yeah.Dharmesh [00:30:49]: So it's, so I like OpenAPI, right? So just a descriptive thing. It's OpenAPI. OpenAPI. Yes, that's what I meant. So it's basically a self-documenting thing. We can do machine-generated, lots of things from that output. It's a structured definition of an API. I get that, love it. But MCPs sort of are kind of use case specific. They're perfect for exactly what we're trying to use them for around LLMs in terms of discovery. It's like, okay, I don't necessarily need to know kind of all this detail. And so right now we have, we'll talk more about like MCP server implementations, but We will? I think, I don't know. Maybe we won't. At least it's in my head. It's like a back processor. But I do think MCP adds value above OpenAPI. It's, yeah, just because it solves this particular thing. And if we had come to the world, which we have, like, it's like, hey, we already have OpenAPI. It's like, if that were good enough for the universe, the universe would have adopted it already. There's a reason why MCP is taking office because marginally adds something that was missing before and doesn't go too far. And so that's why the kind of rate of adoption, you folks have written about this and talked about it. Yeah, why MCP won. Yeah. And it won because the universe decided that this was useful and maybe it gets supplanted by something else. Yeah. And maybe we discover, oh, maybe OpenAPI was good enough the whole time. I doubt that.swyx [00:32:09]: The meta lesson, this is, I mean, he's an investor in DevTools companies. I work in developer experience at DevRel in DevTools companies. Yep. Everyone wants to own the standard. Yeah. I'm sure you guys have tried to launch your own standards. Actually, it's Houseplant known for a standard, you know, obviously inbound marketing. But is there a standard or protocol that you ever tried to push? No.Dharmesh [00:32:30]: And there's a reason for this. Yeah. Is that? And I don't mean, need to mean, speak for the people of HubSpot, but I personally. You kind of do. I'm not smart enough. That's not the, like, I think I have a. You're smart. Not enough for that. I'm much better off understanding the standards that are out there. And I'm more on the composability side. Let's, like, take the pieces of technology that exist out there, combine them in creative, unique ways. And I like to consume standards. I don't like to, and that's not that I don't like to create them. I just don't think I have the, both the raw wattage or the credibility. It's like, okay, well, who the heck is Dharmesh, and why should we adopt a standard he created?swyx [00:33:07]: Yeah, I mean, there are people who don't monetize standards, like OpenTelemetry is a big standard, and LightStep never capitalized on that.Dharmesh [00:33:15]: So, okay, so if I were to do a standard, there's two things that have been in my head in the past. I was one around, a very, very basic one around, I don't even have the domain, I have a domain for everything, for open marketing. Because the issue we had in HubSpot grew up in the marketing space. There we go. There was no standard around data formats and things like that. It doesn't go anywhere. But the other one, and I did not mean to go here, but I'm going to go here. It's called OpenGraph. I know the term was already taken, but it hasn't been used for like 15 years now for its original purpose. But what I think should exist in the world is right now, our information, all of us, nodes are in the social graph at Meta or the professional graph at LinkedIn. Both of which are actually relatively closed in actually very annoying ways. Like very, very closed, right? Especially LinkedIn. Especially LinkedIn. I personally believe that if it's my data, and if I would get utility out of it being open, I should be able to make my data open or publish it in whatever forms that I choose, as long as I have control over it as opt-in. So the idea is around OpenGraph that says, here's a standard, here's a way to publish it. I should be able to go to OpenGraph.org slash Dharmesh dot JSON and get it back. And it's like, here's your stuff, right? And I can choose along the way and people can write to it and I can prove. And there can be an entire system. And if I were to do that, I would do it as a... Like a public benefit, non-profit-y kind of thing, as this is a contribution to society. I wouldn't try to commercialize that. Have you looked at AdProto? What's that? AdProto.swyx [00:34:43]: It's the protocol behind Blue Sky. Okay. My good friend, Dan Abramov, who was the face of React for many, many years, now works there. And he actually did a talk that I can send you, which basically kind of tries to articulate what you just said. But he does, he loves doing these like really great analogies, which I think you'll like. Like, you know, a lot of our data is behind a handle, behind a domain. Yep. So he's like, all right, what if we flip that? What if it was like our handle and then the domain? Yep. So, and that's really like your data should belong to you. Yep. And I should not have to wait 30 days for my Twitter data to export. Yep.Dharmesh [00:35:19]: you should be able to at least be able to automate it or do like, yes, I should be able to plug it into an agentic thing. Yeah. Yes. I think we're... Because so much of our data is... Locked up. I think the trick here isn't that standard. It is getting the normies to care.swyx [00:35:37]: Yeah. Because normies don't care.Dharmesh [00:35:38]: That's true. But building on that, normies don't care. So, you know, privacy is a really hot topic and an easy word to use, but it's not a binary thing. Like there are use cases where, and we make these choices all the time, that I will trade, not all privacy, but I will trade some privacy for some productivity gain or some benefit to me that says, oh, I don't care about that particular data being online if it gives me this in return, or I don't mind sharing this information with this company.Alessio [00:36:02]: If I'm getting, you know, this in return, but that sort of should be my option. I think now with computer use, you can actually automate some of the exports. Yes. Like something we've been doing internally is like everybody exports their LinkedIn connections. Yep. And then internally, we kind of merge them together to see how we can connect our companies to customers or things like that.Dharmesh [00:36:21]: And not to pick on LinkedIn, but since we're talking about it, but they feel strongly enough on the, you know, do not take LinkedIn data that they will block even browser use kind of things or whatever. They go to great, great lengths, even to see patterns of usage. And it says, oh, there's no way you could have, you know, gotten that particular thing or whatever without, and it's, so it's, there's...swyx [00:36:42]: Wasn't there a Supreme Court case that they lost? Yeah.Dharmesh [00:36:45]: So the one they lost was around someone that was scraping public data that was on the public internet. And that particular company had not signed any terms of service or whatever. It's like, oh, I'm just taking data that's on, there was no, and so that's why they won. But now, you know, the question is around, can LinkedIn... I think they can. Like, when you use, as a user, you use LinkedIn, you are signing up for their terms of service. And if they say, well, this kind of use of your LinkedIn account that violates our terms of service, they can shut your account down, right? They can. And they, yeah, so, you know, we don't need to make this a discussion. By the way, I love the company, don't get me wrong. I'm an avid user of the product. You know, I've got... Yeah, I mean, you've got over a million followers on LinkedIn, I think. Yeah, I do. And I've known people there for a long, long time, right? And I have lots of respect. And I understand even where the mindset originally came from of this kind of members-first approach to, you know, a privacy-first. I sort of get that. But sometimes you sort of have to wonder, it's like, okay, well, that was 15, 20 years ago. There's likely some controlled ways to expose some data on some member's behalf and not just completely be a binary. It's like, no, thou shalt not have the data.swyx [00:37:54]: Well, just pay for sales navigator.Alessio [00:37:57]: Before we move to the next layer of instruction, anything else on MCP you mentioned? Let's move back and then I'll tie it back to MCPs.Dharmesh [00:38:05]: So I think the... Open this with agent. Okay, so I'll start with... Here's my kind of running thesis, is that as AI and agents evolve, which they're doing very, very quickly, we're going to look at them more and more. I don't like to anthropomorphize. We'll talk about why this is not that. Less as just like raw tools and more like teammates. They'll still be software. They should self-disclose as being software. I'm totally cool with that. But I think what's going to happen is that in the same way you might collaborate with a team member on Slack or Teams or whatever you use, you can imagine a series of agents that do specific things just like a team member might do, that you can delegate things to. You can collaborate. You can say, hey, can you take a look at this? Can you proofread that? Can you try this? You can... Whatever it happens to be. So I think it is... I will go so far as to say it's inevitable that we're going to have hybrid teams someday. And what I mean by hybrid teams... So back in the day, hybrid teams were, oh, well, you have some full-time employees and some contractors. Then it was like hybrid teams are some people that are in the office and some that are remote. That's the kind of form of hybrid. The next form of hybrid is like the carbon-based life forms and agents and AI and some form of software. So let's say we temporarily stipulate that I'm right about that over some time horizon that eventually we're going to have these kind of digitally hybrid teams. So if that's true, then the question you sort of ask yourself is that then what needs to exist in order for us to get the full value of that new model? It's like, okay, well... You sort of need to... It's like, okay, well, how do I... If I'm building a digital team, like, how do I... Just in the same way, if I'm interviewing for an engineer or a designer or a PM, whatever, it's like, well, that's why we have professional networks, right? It's like, oh, they have a presence on likely LinkedIn. I can go through that semi-structured, structured form, and I can see the experience of whatever, you know, self-disclosed. But, okay, well, agents are going to need that someday. And so I'm like, okay, well, this seems like a thread that's worth pulling on. That says, okay. So I... So agent.ai is out there. And it's LinkedIn for agents. It's LinkedIn for agents. It's a professional network for agents. And the more I pull on that thread, it's like, okay, well, if that's true, like, what happens, right? It's like, oh, well, they have a profile just like anyone else, just like a human would. It's going to be a graph underneath, just like a professional network would be. It's just that... And you can have its, you know, connections and follows, and agents should be able to post. That's maybe how they do release notes. Like, oh, I have this new version. Whatever they decide to post, it should just be able to... Behave as a node on the network of a professional network. As it turns out, the more I think about that and pull on that thread, the more and more things, like, start to make sense to me. So it may be more than just a pure professional network. So my original thought was, okay, well, it's a professional network and agents as they exist out there, which I think there's going to be more and more of, will kind of exist on this network and have the profile. But then, and this is always dangerous, I'm like, okay, I want to see a world where thousands of agents are out there in order for the... Because those digital employees, the digital workers don't exist yet in any meaningful way. And so then I'm like, oh, can I make that easier for, like... And so I have, as one does, it's like, oh, I'll build a low-code platform for building agents. How hard could that be, right? Like, very hard, as it turns out. But it's been fun. So now, agent.ai has 1.3 million users. 3,000 people have actually, you know, built some variation of an agent, sometimes just for their own personal productivity. About 1,000 of which have been published. And the reason this comes back to MCP for me, so imagine that and other networks, since I know agent.ai. So right now, we have an MCP server for agent.ai that exposes all the internally built agents that we have that do, like, super useful things. Like, you know, I have access to a Twitter API that I can subsidize the cost. And I can say, you know, if you're looking to build something for social media, these kinds of things, with a single API key, and it's all completely free right now, I'm funding it. That's a useful way for it to work. And then we have a developer to say, oh, I have this idea. I don't have to worry about open AI. I don't have to worry about, now, you know, this particular model is better. It has access to all the models with one key. And we proxy it kind of behind the scenes. And then expose it. So then we get this kind of community effect, right? That says, oh, well, someone else may have built an agent to do X. Like, I have an agent right now that I built for myself to do domain valuation for website domains because I'm obsessed with domains, right? And, like, there's no efficient market for domains. There's no Zillow for domains right now that tells you, oh, here are what houses in your neighborhood sold for. It's like, well, why doesn't that exist? We should be able to solve that problem. And, yes, you're still guessing. Fine. There should be some simple heuristic. So I built that. It's like, okay, well, let me go look for past transactions. You say, okay, I'm going to type in agent.ai, agent.com, whatever domain. What's it actually worth? I'm looking at buying it. It can go and say, oh, which is what it does. It's like, I'm going to go look at are there any published domain transactions recently that are similar, either use the same word, same top-level domain, whatever it is. And it comes back with an approximate value, and it comes back with its kind of rationale for why it picked the value and comparable transactions. Oh, by the way, this domain sold for published. Okay. So that agent now, let's say, existed on the web, on agent.ai. Then imagine someone else says, oh, you know, I want to build a brand-building agent for startups and entrepreneurs to come up with names for their startup. Like a common problem, every startup is like, ah, I don't know what to call it. And so they type in five random words that kind of define whatever their startup is. And you can do all manner of things, one of which is like, oh, well, I need to find the domain for it. What are possible choices? Now it's like, okay, well, it would be nice to know if there's an aftermarket price for it, if it's listed for sale. Awesome. Then imagine calling this valuation agent. It's like, okay, well, I want to find where the arbitrage is, where the agent valuation tool says this thing is worth $25,000. It's listed on GoDaddy for $5,000. It's close enough. Let's go do that. Right? And that's a kind of composition use case that in my future state. Thousands of agents on the network, all discoverable through something like MCP. And then you as a developer of agents have access to all these kind of Lego building blocks based on what you're trying to solve. Then you blend in orchestration, which is getting better and better with the reasoning models now. Just describe the problem that you have. Now, the next layer that we're all contending with is that how many tools can you actually give an LLM before the LLM breaks? That number used to be like 15 or 20 before you kind of started to vary dramatically. And so that's the thing I'm thinking about now. It's like, okay, if I want to... If I want to expose 1,000 of these agents to a given LLM, obviously I can't give it all 1,000. Is there some intermediate layer that says, based on your prompt, I'm going to make a best guess at which agents might be able to be helpful for this particular thing? Yeah.Alessio [00:44:37]: Yeah, like RAG for tools. Yep. I did build the Latent Space Researcher on agent.ai. Okay. Nice. Yeah, that seems like, you know, then there's going to be a Latent Space Scheduler. And then once I schedule a research, you know, and you build all of these things. By the way, my apologies for the user experience. You realize I'm an engineer. It's pretty good.swyx [00:44:56]: I think it's a normie-friendly thing. Yeah. That's your magic. HubSpot does the same thing.Alessio [00:45:01]: Yeah, just to like quickly run through it. You can basically create all these different steps. And these steps are like, you know, static versus like variable-driven things. How did you decide between this kind of like low-code-ish versus doing, you know, low-code with code backend versus like not exposing that at all? Any fun design decisions? Yeah. And this is, I think...Dharmesh [00:45:22]: I think lots of people are likely sitting in exactly my position right now, coming through the choosing between deterministic. Like if you're like in a business or building, you know, some sort of agentic thing, do you decide to do a deterministic thing? Or do you go non-deterministic and just let the alum handle it, right, with the reasoning models? The original idea and the reason I took the low-code stepwise, a very deterministic approach. A, the reasoning models did not exist at that time. That's thing number one. Thing number two is if you can get... If you know in your head... If you know in your head what the actual steps are to accomplish whatever goal, why would you leave that to chance? There's no upside. There's literally no upside. Just tell me, like, what steps do you need executed? So right now what I'm playing with... So one thing we haven't talked about yet, and people don't talk about UI and agents. Right now, the primary interaction model... Or they don't talk enough about it. I know some people have. But it's like, okay, so we're used to the chatbot back and forth. Fine. I get that. But I think we're going to move to a blend of... Some of those things are going to be synchronous as they are now. But some are going to be... Some are going to be async. It's just going to put it in a queue, just like... And this goes back to my... Man, I talk fast. But I have this... I only have one other speed. It's even faster. So imagine it's like if you're working... So back to my, oh, we're going to have these hybrid digital teams. Like, you would not go to a co-worker and say, I'm going to ask you to do this thing, and then sit there and wait for them to go do it. Like, that's not how the world works. So it's nice to be able to just, like, hand something off to someone. It's like, okay, well, maybe I expect a response in an hour or a day or something like that.Dharmesh [00:46:52]: In terms of when things need to happen. So the UI around agents. So if you look at the output of agent.ai agents right now, they are the simplest possible manifestation of a UI, right? That says, oh, we have inputs of, like, four different types. Like, we've got a dropdown, we've got multi-select, all the things. It's like back in HTML, the original HTML 1.0 days, right? Like, you're the smallest possible set of primitives for a UI. And it just says, okay, because we need to collect some information from the user, and then we go do steps and do things. And generate some output in HTML or markup are the two primary examples. So the thing I've been asking myself, if I keep going down that path. So people ask me, I get requests all the time. It's like, oh, can you make the UI sort of boring? I need to be able to do this, right? And if I keep pulling on that, it's like, okay, well, now I've built an entire UI builder thing. Where does this end? And so I think the right answer, and this is what I'm going to be backcoding once I get done here, is around injecting a code generation UI generation into, the agent.ai flow, right? As a builder, you're like, okay, I'm going to describe the thing that I want, much like you would do in a vibe coding world. But instead of generating the entire app, it's going to generate the UI that exists at some point in either that deterministic flow or something like that. It says, oh, here's the thing I'm trying to do. Go generate the UI for me. And I can go through some iterations. And what I think of it as a, so it's like, I'm going to generate the code, generate the code, tweak it, go through this kind of prompt style, like we do with vibe coding now. And at some point, I'm going to be happy with it. And I'm going to hit save. And that's going to become the action in that particular step. It's like a caching of the generated code that I can then, like incur any inference time costs. It's just the actual code at that point.Alessio [00:48:29]: Yeah, I invested in a company called E2B, which does code sandbox. And they powered the LM arena web arena. So it's basically the, just like you do LMS, like text to text, they do the same for like UI generation. So if you're asking a model, how do you do it? But yeah, I think that's kind of where.Dharmesh [00:48:45]: That's the thing I'm really fascinated by. So the early LLM, you know, we're understandably, but laughably bad at simple arithmetic, right? That's the thing like my wife, Normies would ask us, like, you call this AI, like it can't, my son would be like, it's just stupid. It can't even do like simple arithmetic. And then like we've discovered over time that, and there's a reason for this, right? It's like, it's a large, there's, you know, the word language is in there for a reason in terms of what it's been trained on. It's not meant to do math, but now it's like, okay, well, the fact that it has access to a Python interpreter that I can actually call at runtime, that solves an entire body of problems that it wasn't trained to do. And it's basically a form of delegation. And so the thought that's kind of rattling around in my head is that that's great. So it's, it's like took the arithmetic problem and took it first. Now, like anything that's solvable through a relatively concrete Python program, it's able to do a bunch of things that I couldn't do before. Can we get to the same place with UI? I don't know what the future of UI looks like in a agentic AI world, but maybe let the LLM handle it, but not in the classic sense. Maybe it generates it on the fly, or maybe we go through some iterations and hit cache or something like that. So it's a little bit more predictable. Uh, I don't know, but yeah.Alessio [00:49:48]: And especially when is the human supposed to intervene? So, especially if you're composing them, most of them should not have a UI because then they're just web hooking to somewhere else. I just want to touch back. I don't know if you have more comments on this.swyx [00:50:01]: I was just going to ask when you, you said you got, you're going to go back to code. What

In this episode of Ask Alan, Alan Titchmarsh gives watering and feeding advice for house plants, discusses the ideal situation including light levels and how to combat bugs, provides help for non-flowering orchids, and more. Don't forget to listen for the Wild Card question to see if it's your's! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Have you ever listened to a podcast and learned about some previously-unheard-of way you've been harming your plants, then said “wait, is this really true? That's odd…”? Well, here's an example of that - and the solution (guess what - the solution is a team of nerds who are strangers to each other because that's the power of the internet and the plant community!). Talking about pH Up/Down products and how they DON'T harm your plants when used correctly ❤️

Anna and Raven talk with Katie the Garden Lady to find what it takes to keep a houseplant alive! You can find her on social media @yellowtroutlily!

Are you aware that some people take plants, things that usually grow outside, and actually bring them indoors into their homes for aesthetic purposes? Strange but true. This week, we discuss houseplants.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In today's episode, I go over everything there is to know concerning houseplants and flowers. I ask questions including;What is a flower?What is the purpose of a flower?Do all houseplants flower?How to make a houseplant flower?Are all houseplants flowers desirable?Check out marketbotany.com and use code "plantschoolpodcast" for 10% off your order!Thanks for listening! You can support this podcast with the support link below or check out my merch store here - Plant School Merch - https://tenney-plants.creator-spring.com/Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or answer the question on Spotify and you may be highlighted on my next episode to win!Follow me; Instagram - @plantschoolpodcastYouTube - Tenney Plants ChannelBlog - www.tenneyplants.comPinterest - Tenney PlantsEmail me! - tenneyplants@gmail.com

If another houseplant dropped all its leaves for several months each year, you'd think you killed it. But with some of Ken Druse's and my favorite indoor companions, from Boweia to Jatropha and more, a regular dormant period is just... Read More ›

One of the most fun and satisfying aspects of raising houseplants is being able to propagate them to get more. But some houseplants are easier to propagate than others. To share the need-to-knows of houseplant propagation, Lindsay Sisti, the author of “The Ultimate Guide to Houseplant Propagation,” joins me on the podcast this week. Podcast Links for Show notes Download my free eBook 5 Steps to Your Best Garden Ever - the 5 most important steps anyone can do to have a thriving garden or landscape. It's what I still do today, without exception to get incredible results, even in the most challenging conditions. Subscribe to the joegardener® email list to receive weekly updates about new podcast episodes, seasonal gardening tips, and online gardening course announcements. Check out The joegardener® Online Gardening Academy for our growing library of organic gardening courses. Follow joegardener® on Instagram, Facebook, Pinterest, and Twitter, and subscribe to The joegardenerTV YouTube channel.