Best of Business

A tax expert says there is a concerning trend as businesses owe more and more to Inland Revenue. Businesses owe more than $1.4 billion in unpaid GST and PAYE from the 2025 tax year. Only $66 million of that is from businesses or individuals that are bankrupt or in liquidation. Deloitte Tax Partner Robyn Walker told Mike Hosking the construction sector alone owes about $1 billion. She says it is difficult to say how it stacks up against other industries. LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Government debt levels are rising globally - with many at risk of permanent structural deficits if they can't bring down interest bills each year. Cutting spending and increasing taxes is an unpopular concept among voters, so experts are wondering what the next steps could be. Milford Asset Management's Jeremy Hutton explains further. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

New Zealand businesses owe more than $1.4 billion in unpaid GST and PAYE from the 2025 tax year, according to new reports. Of 2025's number, $432.9 million relates to employer activities and $1.047 billion to GST. IRD Customer Segment Manager Tony Morris says this data's in line with what's happening overseas - but it's an area they aim to put more focus on. "What we're seeing is a bit of an increase in the amount of companies getting in debt - and some of those are the ones that possibly would have failed earlier during Covid. So we're definitely seeing an increase." LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The sluggish job market is another bump in our road to economic recovery, according to some recent predictions. The unemployment rate's sitting at 5.2 percent - its highest point in five years. In late 2021, it was just 3.2 percent. Westpac senior economist, Michael Gordon, says it shows our economic slowdown's ongoing. He says it's not too surprising, given the Reserve Bank's moves to control inflation. "I think we're getting towards the end - we have seen economic activity picking up, but it's just not coming through in terms of businesses needing to hire just yet." LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Economic recovery is taking longer than many hoped. Unemployment's risen to a five-year high of 5.2%, up from 5.1% in the March quarter. New Zealand officially moved out of recession last year. The Herald's Liam Dann told Kerre Woodham the job market is taking longer to catch up, so many people may not be feeling better off. He says economists can tell us numbers are improving, but it takes longer for life to improve. Dann says anxiety about job security and AI is having ripple effects across the economy. He says a lot of professional people are uncertain about the future, and that's putting them off spending money. LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The latest unemployment statistics for New Zealand are due out tomorrow, and experts are divided ahead of the announcement. Many are projecting the market will have deteriorated further, but some are hoping things would have picked up. HSBC chief economist Paul Bloxham explains further. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Trump surprised New Zealand businesses with a new 15 percent tariff, and experts have crunched the numbers to find out what this could mean for our key sectors. The imposition of the new tariff on Kiwi exports is projected to cost the red meat sector an estimated $300 million and wine exporters $112 million. The Country's Jamie Mackay explains further. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

New World customers are struggling to get their hands on Smeg kitchenware, available under a 12-week promotion. They can collect one sticker for every $20 spent. But the highest-value option, the braiser, is running out - and New World says there won't be any extra deliveries. Consumer NZ, CEO Jon Duffy, says New World has specified this is 'while stocks last'. But he says it's also required by law to have appropriate stocks. "With these promotions, this is not their first rodeo, they've done these over the years - so they do know that these promotions are popular." LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

New Zealand's biggest energy players - Genesis, Meridian, Mercury and Contact - have formed a deal to stockpile coal at Huntly Power Station, and questions have been raised. The energy companies say the shared strategic energy reserve will secure supply for the next decade. Minerals West Coast manager Patrick Phelps explained the nuances of this deal to the Afternoons team. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

US markets cracked sharply last Friday, and experts are aiming to discover what happened. Job market slumps, economic uncertainty and growing tariff tensions have been highlighted as key factors behind the drop. Harbour Asset Management's Shane Solly explained further. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Genesis Energy and the three other big power generators have signed agreements to establish a strategic energy reserve centred on Genesis' Huntly Power Station. The deals - aimed at supporting national security of power supply - have been settled by Genesis, Meridian Energy, Mercury NZ and Contact Energy. The parties intend for the agreements to take effect from January 1, 2026. Genesis Energy chief executive Malcolm Johns says there's a clear case to keep the plant going - and Genesis couldn't do it on its own. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Finance Minister reckons New Zealand will eventually be able to work out a better deal with the Trump administration following last week's shock announcement. President Donald Trump has unveiled a surprise 15 percent tariff on New Zealand - higher than that for both the UK and Australia. Finance Minister Nicola Willis says there's a possibility things could improve, given the changing trading relationship between both nations. "The question for us is - if it does change, does that mean we get better treatment?" LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

White-collar workers will be familiar with workplace annoyances - including unnecessary meetings, corporate acronyms and an overuse of LinkedIn - and it's all been observed by a pair of Aussie comedians. The duo put modern workplace culture under the microscope in their book - 'Wankernomics'. Co-author James Schloeffel says he's spent a long time in the corporate world and he's used this book to discuss the issues he's observed over the years. "But I think, also, it's a way for other people to have that therapy session too. It is quite cathartic, I think, reading this book." LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Prime Minister has claimed it's 'unlikely' that New Zealand will be able to make Trump change his mind about the tariffs - and many experts agree with that sentiment. Trump recently raised New Zealand's tariff rate to 15 percent, while keeping Australia and the UK at 10 percent. Trade Minister Todd McClay will head to Washington in the coming weeks to argue our case, but Felicity Roxburgh from the International Business Forum agrees Trump is unlikely to budge. "We do believe it's still worth making an attempt to go and talk to them. The other thing to remember is that we have supported, more or less, the Government's approach." LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

So, was our government too relaxed about the tariffs then? Cause this is a shock today – isn't it? To find out that we've just been bumped up to 15% while Australia and dozens of other countries have stayed on 10%. Now, it seems to be related, most likely, to our balance of trade and that the US has a trade deficit with us. So we get 15%, but then a trade surplus with Australia, so they get 10%. So perhaps it was inevitable and unavoidable, as long as the balance of trade sat like that. But then, on the other hand, Australia did kind of lock that in as well. They lifted their ban on US beef imports while we did nothing. Should we have done something similar Because if there's one thing that we know about Donald Trump, it's that he's a trader. South Korea had their tariff dropped from 25% to 15% by promising to buy $100 million worth of LNG. Sir Keir Starmer sucked up to Trump with a letter from King Charles. Now we don't actually know what our diplomats were doing, because they were fairly guarded about it. But the vibe that we kept getting from ministers and officials every time we asked about it was, ‘not a lot going on, we'll see how this goes, we're on 10%, we're no worse than anyone else' That's the trouble, though. We are now worse than other people. We export beef to the US, Australia exports beef to the US. Their beef now gets 10%, ours gets 15%. Now, we can argue about whether US consumers are really going to switch up their $11.50 New Zealand steak if the Aussie steak is only 50 cents cheaper. I mean, what's really the difference between $11.50 and $11? But I chose a butter last night because it was $1 cheaper than the other butter, so maybe they will, which brings me to the question that I asked at the start of this. Were we too relaxed? Because we definitely and quite deliberately opted for Winston's head below the parapet approach. But maybe what we should have done was opted for the same approach that Albanese and Starmer took, which is to suck up instead. Given where we are and where they are - both their countries are now on 10% and we're sitting on 15%. LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

US President Donald Trump has announced an increase to the current 10% tariff on NZ goods. As of today, the President has raised these tariffs to 15%, leaving exporters concerned about their businesses. President Trump says that this increase is a 'reciprocal' tariff. Senior Business Journalist John Weekes says that this comment has left confusion, as New Zealand does not impose tariffs on US products. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

2025 is nearly halfway over - and it's been a memorable one for the markets so far. Between new developments in AI, ongoing economic uncertainty and Donald Trump's string of tariff announcements, investors have had to contend with a lot of unique factors. Fisher Funds expert Sam Dickie explains further - and reveals what investors can expect for the months ahead. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The latest Farmer Confidence survey shows farmers are seeing one of the highest lifts in confidence in recent memory. The July survey shows the rural mood has improved significantly this year, rebounding from record lows 12 months ago. The Country's Hamish McKay explains further. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

An Auckland company is part of a consortium which has secured nearly $18 million in UK Government funding to help Jaguar Land Rover recycle old EV batteries. Mint Innovation, along with LiBatt Recycling and Warwick University, will help develop technology to extract lithium, nickel and cobalt from used batteries. Mint Innovation CEO Dr Will Barker says the company is scaling to be one of the leaders in recovering valuable metal from e-waste. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Agriculture is leading the way as the country's top performing industry. Xero's latest Insights report shows consistent under-performance in New Zealand's small business sector in the past year, with sales falling by 0.1% in the June quarter. Country manager Bridget Snelling told Mike Hosking sectors that are more sensitive to consumer spending and interest rates are being hit hardest. She says construction is down 6.4%, retail is holding flat, and hospitality is down 2.1%, so it's tough conditions for small businesses. However, sales in the month of June rose 4.4%, the strongest monthly increase since April 2024. Snelling says we're in an unstable global economic situation, and people are not feeling confident to spend as they may have done in a more prosperous economic time. LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

After years of a historically strong labour market, there are now growing signs of softening beneath the surface. Work opportunities in the US are dwindling amid ongoing economic uncertainty, with the Trump administration's policies contributing to high unemployment figures. Milford Asset Management expert Brendan Larsen explains further. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The New Zealand Chambers of Commerce have warned that the Government's proposed ban on retail payment surcharges risks hitting small businesses with higher costs. Simon Bridges, CEO of the Auckland Business Chamber, acknowledged that the Government was trying to protect consumers from additional fees - but voiced concerns about what this ban could do for smaller operators. He says the ban isn't a cost-free exercise - and someone will have to pay the merchant fees. "It's either going to be through price hikes that consumers may not appreciate or understand - or it's going to be the poor old SME in areas like retail, hospo, tourism that are going to be having to find a way to pay for it." LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Air New Zealand's new CEO appointment isn't a shock within the sector, according to one expert. Chief Digital Officer Nikhil Ravishankar will step up to replace Greg Foran in October. Forsyth Barr Head of Research Andy Bowley says he's unsure whether this appointment suggests a lack of international interest. "There's been a reasonable understanding that he was one of the leading - if not the leading - internal candidates. So in that regard, it's not necessarily a surprise." LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Finance Minister's floating the idea of listing KiwiBank on the stock exchange. Cabinet has given KiwiBank's parent company the green light to raise an extra $500 million. However, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says this won't occur without an electoral mandate. "That will be for individual parties to take a position at the election - but I've been advised that any potential public offering could take place before 2028." LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Jeremy Williamson, head of private wealth and markets at Craigs Investment Partners, recently claimed there was momentum building for Kiwis to move away from investing in property - but one expert has suggested differently. Matt Ball from the Property Investors Federation acknowledged people were getting more savvy about outside investments and that the property market was changing, but claimed the nation's love affair with property wasn't over. "I think the property market has changed, thanks to some initiatives from the Government and I think people will start to take a bit of a different approach. I don't buy this whole - property investment isn't a productive activity." LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A top lawyer working with the plaintiffs in a large-scale banking class action is calling for a formal investigation into the 'serious civil service process failures' by MBIE. Rachael Reed, KC, has outlined her objections in a letter to Public Service Commissioner Sir Brian Roche and Attorney-General Judith Collins, voicing concerns with the Reserve Bank's risk assessment. She says the $12.9 billion figure is 'fantastical' and says it doesn't have a grasp of reality. "It just doesn't make sense on that first fundamental level." LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Australian exporters may face tariffs of up to 20 percent as US President Donald Trump keeps flagging higher baselines. Trump revealed the range for the new minimum tariff earlier this week, and the pressure's on the Albanese-led Government to strike a better deal. Australian correspondent Murray Olds says it's unclear how the Government will proceed here. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

One investment expert says New Zealand would be a lot better off if people sold off their property investments and put money into assets that helped boost the economy. Jeremy Williamson, head of private wealth and markets at Craigs Investment Partners, recently claimed the time has come for the nation to move away from its 'love affair with property'. He joined the Afternoons team to discuss further. LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

There is much that this coalition government is dealing with that is not of their own making – they are mopping up, cleaning up the mess. Then there are the own goals that should not be happening 18 months into office – and I would argue that the announcement trumpeted yesterday afternoon is an example of an own goal. The Government is planning to ban merchants from adding surcharges to in-store card payments, a change they say that will save shoppers from the unwelcome surprise they get at the till. Go the Government for protecting the consumer! Well, no, hang on a minute. My first thought was well, surely the retailers will simply pass on the cost that they have to pay to the banks for the privilege of having debit cards, contactless payments, and credit cards. The bank charges them because the credit card companies charge them, the banks certainly aren't going to absorb it. The retailers say, well, if you want the privilege of contactless payment if you want the convenience of that, then you can pay the charge. But now they're going to have to absorb it. My second thought was now I'm going to be paying more. I don't Tap and Go. I very seldom Tap and Go. I've got a business account and a personal account, and when I pay for something, I'll insert my card, select the account, and pay that way. It's supposed to make things easier for the accountant, and I avoid the surcharge. So when the retailers pass on the cost of the surcharge, anyone else who inserts and pins or swipes and pins will be paying too. Heather du Plessis-Allan covered most of my objections when I was listening to her interview with Scott Simpson last night. How can this possibly be trumpeted as a boon to consumers when all that happens is the price of goods will go up to cover the surcharge? Why not go after the credit card companies? And the banks? I could certainly understand charging a surcharge in the olden days when we had the zip zap credit card machines. There would undoubtedly have been a cost involved in processing all that paper. But now? Come on. Sure, there are costs in terms of fraud protection and there'd be other costs involved if you want to use your credit card and have that added protection, then you pay the surcharge. I don't see why the retailer should pay it, and I don't see why I should pay it when I'm not using that facility. Why didn't the Government go after the Ticketmasters, and the Air New Zealands, and the hotels of this world that charge processing fees and service fees, and “you've looked at our website so now we're going to charge you” fees. The Coalition Government did not cover themselves in glory yesterday with this announcement. And then there was the announcement of the announcement from Brooke van Velden around scaffolding safety requirements. That was another unwelcome reminder of Labour's modus operandi too. No, she was a day to forget for the Government yesterday. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

BNZ is taking advantage of the Government's ban on in-store card surcharges to promote its new banking platform. Payap, an open banking platform, allows customers to pay directly from their bank account. It provides a lower-cost alternative with transaction fees of just 0.39% or 0.59%, and is compatible with all major NZ banks. BNZ Head of Payment Development Jonathan Dale told Kerre Woodham with yesterday's surcharge announcement, it's good to highlight some alternatives in the market that will leave businesses in a good position for both them and their customers. Payap, he says, creates an even playing field, and the small transaction fee creates an opportunity for small and large businesses alike to keep on growing. LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Commerce Minister says he's disappointed in businesses who say they will pass on the cost of surcharge scrapping. Most in-store surcharges on card payments will be banned, with the changes set to kick in next May. Scott Simpson says this is a win for consumers. He told Mike Hosking they've also taken action on the fees banks charge businesses. Simpson says those rates will be lower following regulation that will kick in at the end of the year. LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

President Donald Trump recently announced that the United States and the European Union reached a framework for a trade deal. Trump reportedly had talks with European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen in Scotland. Harbour Asset Management spokesperson Shane Solly explains further. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Recent data shows there were 27,850 fewer jobs in New Zealand in June compared to the year before, and young Kiwis are being hit hard by a tightening labour market. Over 12,000 of those lost jobs came from the construction sector, manufacturing lost 5850 jobs, professional, scientific and technical services lost 5150 jobs and admin and support services lost 4860 jobs. Infometrics principal economist Brad Olsen explains what's behind this change. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Finance Minister has hinted changes are on the way for the supermarket sector, with a further update due out by the end of August. Speculation indicates the Government will make an announcement to address the situation. Nicola Willis says Prime Minister Luxon has confirmed the Government will be making an announcement this quarter. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The news of the day, politically, is that surcharges are gone, as the Government's just banned them. You know what I'm talking about here, right? They're the little extra amount that you get pinged when you turn up at the dairy and you use your credit card, or you use your paywave - it's gone from May next year. The big sell behind this is basically that it's to help you with the cost of living crisis. Now, I hate to do this because I know you're thinking, "Oh, yay." And I'm totally gonna rain on that parade for you. Don't get excited, this is gonna fix nothing. You are still gonna end up paying that cost somehow, probably just through the cost of the bottle of milk that you're buying. Or your haircut, or your sushi or whatever it is - it's gonna be built into the price because the business still has the cost. Nothing is changing there. They've still got to pay that merchant fee. Now, a merchant fee is a very complicated set of charges which the business gets lumped with. And most businesses actually have no bloody idea what makes up that merchant fee. There's a fee from the credit card companies, there's a fee for moving money from the banks, there's the EFTPOS providers - the whole thing gets lumped into the merchant fee and that has not gone away. What's only gone away is the business's ability to be able to recover the cost of some of that through the surcharge. And by the way, the cost of that thing is actually quite big. I've read about one business - just one shop - that pays about $14,000 in a year just for that, just for the merchant fee, to be able to do business electronically. Now, what's going to happen if you go to that shop is, because that guy can't now pass it on to you with a 2 percent, 0.7 percent, 1 percent surcharge or whatever, he's simply going to add it to the cost of his product so that across the year, he makes that $14,000 back. Also, another reason why you shouldn't get excited about it is that this ban does not include anything that you buy online. So you're buying your Air New Zealand tickets? You're still gonna be paying that little $6 handling fee. You're buying some tickets for a concert from Ticketmaster? You're still paying that handling fee. Maybe you want to head along to Banksy? Yep, you're still gonna be paying yourself a nice little $8 handling fee. And the problem with that is that these are some of the most egregious examples, I would have thought, of surcharges just bearing no resemblance to reality - but they still slip through this. So instead of actually sorting out the backroom problems and the real gnarly issues - what has been charged by the banks and the EFTPOS companies and the credit card companies and really excessive surcharges - the Government's just taken the easy option and brought in a ban on the little stuff you buy from the dairy. Good headline. Unfortunately, though, just a charade. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Government's recent ban on on payment card surcharges has been met with criticism from the retail and hospitality sectors. The Government's announced it will scrap extra in-store card fees by next May. The Commerce Commission has already reduced bank interchange visa and master card fees for businesses. Dairy and Business Owners Group chair Ankit Bansal says these proposed changes are 'unfair' as the banks can still charge whatever transaction fees they like. "These will likely have to be passed on to the consumers - the problem is, we would have to do it across the board. So even if someone was paying with cash, one way or another, we're paying for these charges." LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Government's scrapping card surcharges at the till, which collectively cost Kiwis $150 million each year. Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Scott Simpson confirmed they'll ban in-store credit and debit card surcharges, like paywave fees. He says it's important for consumers to have transparency when it comes to pricing. "In a competitive world, businesses understand the price-competitive nature of the businesses that they operate and the goods and services they provide. Surcharges are annoying, they're pesky and most customers don't actually know whether they're paying the full price." LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Can I suggest Jarrod Kerr for Governor of the Reserve Bank? Jarrod is Kiwibank's Chief Economist. He has been completely consistent in his ongoing commentary around interest rate cuts and the Reserve Bank's need to do more. To be fair, our own Greg Smith at Devon Funds Management has told us, and argued, a similar story. The Kiwibank economic report that got a decent amount of coverage over the weekend is Jarrod's - proof positives that he is right and Adrian Orr and Christian Hawkesby have been, and are, wrong. As long as they continue to be myopic and look at nothing but inflation they can argue two things. 1) It's in the band, even though it's dangerously close to not being, and will most likely breach it this year, 2) This ongoing, but increasing false, idea that they have cut enough and the efforts of that will flow through eventually. We are virtually in August and the 25 points cut in the latter part of this year that's supposed to be lift off is nothing of the sort and the Kiwibank report confirms it. It tells us what we know already - the further south you go the better it is. But here is the real news; even in the best, most lucrative, optimistic part of the country i.e Otago and Southland they only get 5/10. A half mark is as good as it gets. The rest of the country is miserable. Are there signs? Yes, but how long do you want to squeeze the economic lemon looking for juice? Dairy, meat and kiwifruit - all the stuff we have talked about, and celebrated, is not only doing the heavy lifting; it's doing almost all the lifting. Tourism is there in Otago. But its still only 86% of what it was six years ago. Confidence is hard to find, foreigners still can't buy a house when they invest millions, and for every dollar you get from lower interest rates you pay $2 more for your power and insurance and rates, which have become the new version of highway robbery. The economy needs help. It needs a major enthusiast, it needs a circuit breaker and the Reserve Bank and their view and actions are potentially it. Jarrod sees it, Greg sees it, John Key sees it and wants a full 100 points drop. But until anyone of them is Governor, we rely on Christian and his committee and that is where the problem lies. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It's a Hutt Valley special of the Wellington Morning's business panel this week, with a successful engineer and the man in charge of advocating for business in the area joining Nick on the show. On the agenda; the state of the Wellington economy in the outer cities, rising rates and insurance costs, public sector cuts and the rise of artificial intelligence. Hutt Valley Chamber of Commerce CEO Patrick McKibbin and Metco Engineering director Paul Jessup joined Nick Mills. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The job market is slowly rebounding from last year's low point. SEEK's latest Employment Report shows job ads dropped for a second month, down three percent month on month. Applications per job ad fell two percent. Country Manager Rob Clark told Mike Hosking this is just a small drop, and we're still at record unemployment levels. He says the job market in the last 12 months has been flat, leaving Kiwis struggling. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Christchurch entrepreneur Nic Gaviria's business idea designed to address binge eating has landed a new major supporter - and a cash boost. Gaviria was selected from 16,000 business owners around the world to be mentored by Steven Bartlett, a Dragon's Den investor and host of the Diary of a CEO podcast. She says it's been extremely 'validating' to have the business recognized. "I saw this competition pop up in an ad on my social media and I thought - you know what, I could win that. I just had this gut feeling that what I'm doing in the world might be something he might get behind." LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The South Island seems to be pulling ahead of the North as New Zealand crawls out of the recession. Kiwibank's latest report reveals economic activity is picking up across most of the country - but recovery remains fragile. It indicates booms in agriculture and tourism have aided recovery in places like Otago and Southland. Kiwibank chief economist Jarrod Kerr says the tide is turning for the economy, but the nature of last year's recession means recovery will take longer than expected. "It's not fast enough for me - the way we're recovering, I think we need more stimulus, I think we need more policy support." LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.