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In this episode of Building Texas Business, I welcomed Jen Sudduth, CEO of Sudduth Search, for an insightful discussion on her journey in the executive search industry. Jen shared her story of transitioning from Taylor Winfield to launching her boutique firm focused on transformative growth companies. I learned how Sudduth Search crafts a supportive work culture that prioritizes both productivity and well-being. Our dialogue also uncovered nuances around balancing work responsibilities with life's pleasures. As we wrapped up, Jen reflected on life lessons from mentorship to her commitment to the Special Olympics community SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Jen Sudduth shares her transition from Taylor Winfield to founding Sudduth Search, focusing on middle market private equity and emphasizing the need for leaders who can drive change. We explore the importance of having a business and marketing strategy before starting a venture, as well as considering when to hire based on company growth and values alignment. Strategies for maintaining work-life balance in recruitment are discussed, including setting boundaries and fostering a culture that supports employee well-being alongside business success. The episode delves into the comprehensive selection process for executive search, particularly for pivotal roles such as CFOs, and the role of retained search firms in this process. Jen reflects on the role of empathy in leadership and the importance of mentorship, drawing from her own experiences and her involvement with the Special Olympics. Personal joys, such as a preference for Tex-Mex cuisine and planning for sabbatical destinations like Maine and Santa Fe, are shared as part of achieving a joyful living. The conversation covers the initial opportunistic hiring during COVID and the shift towards a more strategic hiring approach to raise the team's overall expertise. Chris and Jen discuss the benefits of leaving a company the right way, honoring agreements, and how transparency can lead to unexpected opportunities. Jen advises on the importance of planning for success, not just the startup phase, by having operational projections and growth strategies in place. The episode also touches on Jen's past experience as Director of Talent at a consultancy, highlighting how internal hiring insights can improve external recruitment advice. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Sudduth search GUESTS Jen SudduthAbout Jen TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In today's episode, you will meet Jen Sudduth, co-founder and CEO of Sudduth Search, a boutique executive search firm. Jen's advice to aspiring entrepreneurs is to be intentional and purposeful in your business planning, and don't forget to plan for success. Okay, jen, first off, welcome to Building Texas Business. Thanks for being here. Jen: Thank you. Chris: So I'm excited to have this conversation with you today. I want to start by just allowing you to introduce yourself and tell us what your company, Sudduth Search, is known for. Jen: Sure. So we are a seven-person boutique executive search firm, but I think what we do is a little bit unique. We work with the middle market private equity. Probably 75% of our clients are private equity backed. The other are public, private you name it individually owned, it doesn't matter. I think the common denominator with all of them is that all of the companies are going through some sort of transformation, and most of the time that's growth. It could have been that they raised capital. That's a trigger to bring us in and go and replace some of your leadership team. Could be some of our bigger companies going through some sort of culture change. We did 10 positions for a Blackstone-backed company and basically they wanted to pull from outside of their industry and they didn't know how to do that, and so we helped them come up with a concept of how to do that completely, you know, changed their recruiting processes from how they were doing them before, and then they brought in a whole new culture and that's what they wanted. They wanted a different culture than they had before. So it's just, it doesn't matter what the trigger is, but it's usually some sort of change, transformation. You need a leader that can drive that change right. You need someone that is fearless. A lot of times that can come in, and they're you. You know they can make things happen. Right and that's where we play most of the time. Chris: Well, what I find interesting about that is how laser focused it is what inspired you to kind of start a search firm that was so focused on that kind of niche industry. Jen: So I've actually done it for over 20 years and the firm I was with before was called Taylor Winfield. I only bring that up because a lot of people know Taylor Winfield. I started with Taylor Winfield and kind of worked my way up and that's what they focused on. They were more. You know that was 2000, so there was a lot of venture money out there, there was Silicon Valley and they worked a lot in California we did. I was just a lowly junior recruiter back then and that's where I learned the business and that's where I kind of learned that world. And it's not for everyone, both as a candidate and as a recruiter, because sometimes candidates will go well, what are they going to sell? Am I going to still have a job? I'm like, well, you're really not, you're not right for this, because that's not the mentality that we look for in a candidate. But so that's how I got my start and that's how I learned it. And then when I started this up my practice five years ago, I kind of I don't do a whole lot of venture. I have a few here and there. Usually they're a little bit more mature as a company. I think. As I've aged I'm not as patient with the venture. I think they've got a great thing going. But it's just a different world and I think sometimes those, the people that are willing to go and do something really earlier stage, are not the same people that I'm looking for the middle market series, b series, c type folks. So so that's how I had got into. It was really that's kind of what I've done my whole career. Chris: Gotcha. Well, I know that you started this company Suddeth Search around five years ago. Jen: Exactly. Chris: So you had to make some decision to leave and just start fresh on your own. Let's talk about that a little bit. What drove that decision? Jen: So the company that I worked for was actually owned by and I don't usually say this, so you're getting new information here by my stepmother, connie Adair, and I bring that up because she's fully retired now. She's been retired for about two years. But she brought me into the business, not as a multi-generational business. I had to earn my keep, earn my way Right, just like everyone else. She was very big on treating me like everyone else. Chris: The benefit for you that she did that. Jen: Absolutely and I learned from the best. She was really known as one of the best in the industry so I kind of got to see that world and that process. But she sold to private equity and it was a private equity roll up. Like some of them, it didn't go really well. The integration piece was a little rough. Chris: Not unique in that regard, right and I got no benefit from it. Jen: To be quite honest. I stuck around to try to support her and she did well. And then she got another bite of the apple and I tried for two years. I wasn't a big company person and I realized if I can make this kind of money for someone else, I should be doing it for myself. And so I kind of did it because I could, and she fully supported me. She knew that retirement was on the horizon and so when I told her she said you know, I think you should go for it. So that's what I did. Chris: That's great. Well, I mean good to have that encouragement for someone that you were close with but considered to be a trusted mentor Absolutely. So got to be a little bit trepidatious to just start out on your own, even though you know what you're doing and you, I think you can't do that unless you have confidence that it's going to work and confidence that it will work isn't a guarantee that it will Absolutely. But you know what were some of the things you did to kind of set yourself up in those early days of starting your own company, to try to pave the path towards success. Jen: So I will start with the fact that I had a very strict non-compete. I did not get any clients from the company or from her, and I am a devout follower of non-competes. Chris: Well, it's funny, you say that you bring that, yeah, you know, now we devise people, I mean literally every day, on both sides of those, and right because because they exist and obviously you know there's a lot of buzz recently because the ftc came out with the rule to ban them, uh, which is, you know, probably not going to take effect because lawsuits have already been filed to challenge it. Jen: But it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out yeah in the next, over the next few years, I think yeah, and not to say I don't think some non-competes go overboard. I have heard some ludicrous non-competes as I'm interviewing, so sure, I do think a lot of them go overboard. I think the fdc is in the is moving in the right direction with some of them, because I think they're a little too restrictive. Chris: But that's not your question yeah, and even as the rule's written, it doesn't apply to executives, so it wouldn't change your world. Jen: It wouldn't, and I'd been there a long time. Everything I got was under their umbrella. So what I did do was I planned for a long time. I've owned businesses before and so I had a business plan, I had a marketing plan, I had a strategy. The other advantage I had was that I had been I've been asked to be on the board of ACG and so that was a. I knew that was going to be great PR. It's gonna be great relationships there. That's how I met Steve Kasten here at the Boyer Miller and a few others, and so I knew that was coming. But it was pretty far out. You know my tenure had just started. Didn't know I was gonna be president, but I knew that was gonna be on the. I'd have a lot of visibility. So that helped quite a bit. I think that was one factor. Fun story unrelated to your question the day before I quit, the day before my last day, I gave like four months notice and they knew I was leaving. I was unwinding. I had some really big searches, so I was unwinding those and finishing those up for clients, kind of on the bench, but just doing that. So the day of the last day of employment I get a call from that client that I just mentioned wanted to change their culture Blackstone Back Company. He said I got 10 searches for you, jim. I said, well, I can't do them, I'm leaving, today is my last day. And he's well, I'm not doing it without you. And so I called the company and I said here's what's happening. Would you, would we, can we do a fee split? Didn't know that was coming, but that was really great cash flow. And they said yes, and so we worked out a fee split. I continued I worked with that client and then they brought in their team, but it was great cash flow right out of the gates. And and then they brought in their team, but it was great cash flow right out of the gates. And then I developed brand new clients from that point on. But I knew the industry. I think the industry knew me. Chris: So even if it wasn't somebody, I'd worked before, I had a plan and I went after those people. That's a really cool story to hear and there's a lesson. There's probably many lessons, but one that just struck me right between the eyes is the lesson in leaving the right way, when you leave a company versus leaving the wrong way and you just laid out a roadmap for the listeners. If you're thinking about leaving, you left the right way, honoring your agreements, and then, with the transparency to get the slug of business for your new business, for your new company, because you went to them and said here's the deal, because you've done everything else right. It's good to hear that. I guess they could have not honored that, but they did the right thing in my mind too, yeah, by saying yeah, it'd be fair to share this and, by the way, we should. Customer comes first. That's what they want. Let's make them happy. Jen: So customer comes first. That's what they want. Let's make them happy. So, yeah, and I completely agree and I try to tell people and I know there's exceptions, I know there's bosses that are just difficult and if they know you're even looking there, you're gone. I know that happens, but I think majority of the time people are reasonable and if you come to them and sometimes I'll have friends come to me and say I'm thinking about making a change- Grass is greener Right and I'm like I know they're in a great situation. I'm like have you had a really difficult conversation with your boss before you leave, before you start thinking about? Have you told them that you're unhappy You've been there? Chris: 14 years or you've been there seven years. Jen: Have you talked about it? And usually the answer is no, and so I try to encourage them to say go talk to them first and then if it's still you know, in a month you still feel like it's just not fulfilling then talk about leaving. Yeah, but you need to give them a chance. Chris: It's great advice. People unfortunately right. It's kind of human nature to avoid the difficult, uncomfortable conversation, or at least I'll say this, the ones we perceive have it that they're going to be difficult or uncomfortable. And to your point, I think, a lot of times if you actually have the courage to go have it, they usually aren't as difficult or uncomfortable as you work them up in your mind to be. Jen: Absolutely. Chris: And you know I can speak. You know as well as you can. If you give your employer, where you've been otherwise happy for a while, the chance to have that conversation most people if there's a tweak or two that would keep you there, it's probably going to save the company a ton of money. To consider that. Jen: And it might benefit the company. Talk to them about. You know I'd really like to do more sales. You know I'd really like to take on bigger projects. You know what We've been looking for someone that wants to take on bigger projects. You just never know what the company needs. Chris: So we can go back. You mentioned, and just for the listeners ACG Association of Corporate Growth. Jen: Yes. Chris: Indice Group industry in the kind of M&A, a lot of private equity. So sounds like part of that marketing plan was to plug yourself in to the right kind of networking system where you would meet people and build relationships. Jen: That's correct. Yeah, yeah, and I eventually was asked to be president I don't know if you know that and so it was a lot of it was a lot of visibility as well. That's half the battle. Chris: Yes. Jen: Because there's a lot of top of mind search firms out there. Yeah, getting top of mind and helping them see that. I understand private equity, I understand what their challenges are. I understand what they're trying to achieve. I understand how capital's raised. You know I've got the knowledge base to be able to convey that to candidates and to help find the right one that's going to fit that. So I think that helped a lot and it's it was educational for me. You know, going to conferences, hearing panels speak. I know a lot about a lot or a little about a lot. Chris: Let me rephrase that I shouldn't admit that, but it's true, but it does. Jen: It's real educational to hear those conversations and to hear what's happening in the market. You know from your peers that are in the organization. Chris: A couple other takeaways from what you said. That I hope people listening caught is that you had a plan before you did this right, absolutely. You sat down and put it to paper a business plan, a marketing plan, a strategy. Look, I think those are so important and can be overlooked. When people say, look, I'm just going to go chase this dream, that's great because you need the inspiration, but you also need some substance behind it, because if you eventually do go to and most will go to a bank or an investor or something, they're going to be asking about that. So you better be prepared. Jen: Absolutely. Chris: So one of the things and you and I were talking about this, I guess before we got the recording going, and that is you know about this, I guess before we got the recording going, and that is you know, you now have seven employees. Let's talk a little bit about you know. I think there's a few conversations. One is what was it that triggered you each time to make the decision Now it's time to take on an employee or another employee, because those are big investments and then how did you go about making sure they were the right fit? Jen: Yeah. So it was growth that predicated the need. That was the part I didn't plan was when am I going to hire what? You know what? At what point do we need to bring on another person? At what point do we need to bring on a junior person, et cetera, et cetera. I didn't plan that piece of it and I probably should have, but it was really just my bandwidth and being able to do what I needed to do. You know, we were super busy during COVID, which sounds really strange, but I had some. I had that one big client that was still going. I had just so, if you think about I had been in business for about a year and so that year I had been really busy doing marketing and business development and getting out there and making relationships, and so it just it paid off and I think a lot of those people one of my biggest clients I don't know if you know Dave Marchese, he'd be a good guest. Let's do it. He called me out of the blue in the middle of COVID and we had met like five years prior, but he had seen my posts and my marketing and my emails and so he said I can't go out. I'm not going to go out and interview five interview candidates, but we're in the or excuse me search firms because we're in the middle of COVID. So what you got Jen, and so I took it on, and we've probably done 15 different positions over three or four years. Wow, so he's one of our biggest clients. So there that, I think the prior relationships definitely helped us make it. You asked about employees, though. Chris: Yes, well, before we go there. Yeah, one of the things you so interesting. You said I didn't plan for growth. Yeah, probably should have. Jen: Yeah. Chris: So, looking back, what do you think you could have done in that regard that you might offer as advice to someone that you know is maybe about to do something similar that you did five years ago? You know, what have you learned? Looking back, to say I would have, if I was going to do it again, I would plan for growth in this way. Jen: Plan for success. I think I was so focused on how am I going to get there that I didn't say if, when I get there, if when I get there, how am I going to get to the next level? I never did that. I never said, okay, I can handle 12 searches, or whatever it is, at different in different phases. So if I get 14, what do I do? At what point do I, you know? Do I need to start hiring when I get to 9 searches, whatever it? So maybe it was a revenue. I think I should have projected and said, because I've been in the business a while, I know how many searches I can do by myself or with a team, and so I think that would have been very helpful to do kind of like an FB&A analysis, but on the operational side. Chris: Right, Very helpful, that's very helpful. Okay, so now let's go back to kind of set a search. You starting to decide I've hit the point, I can't do this all, I've got to bring someone on. Yeah, you know how did you go about sourcing. I know obviously you've probably had a lot of contacts, but you know just the whole process of how you interviewed to make sure they were going to be a good fit for your company. Jen: So my first hire, I got really lucky because she was a neighbor, a friend who got laid off during COVID and so we brought her on just to do some of this data pushing type stuff. She made phone calls, cold calls, she's fearless, and then she grew into being a really good recruiter. After that first hire it was, oh my God, I can't handle this. I just need a body that can help do, a professional person that can do all this. After that hire I was much more purposeful. After that it was we want experience. We want, you know, degree Now she was degreed. But we want degreed individuals that understand the business world, that understand you know degree Now she was degreed. But we want degreed individuals that understand the business world, that understand, you know. I think every time I made another hire I kind of elevated my expectations. Chris: Right. Jen: And not to say the first hire was. She was a phenomenal employee, but I think every time after that I was much more purposeful about how I, who I wanted to hire and what my expectations of them were. Chris: Yeah, that makes sense to me and you're right, it's not a condemnation of the earlier hires. It's if you're doing things right, I believe you're always learning and your processes can always get better, and it doesn't mean you didn't make bad hires before, but you can get more intentionality around the decisions you're making and I think that's part of growth and when you're a one person show or two because my husband did join me about six months in it's harder to attract talent you know, Now we're about to make an offer to a pretty senior person and we had a really good slate of people that were interested, that were like, yeah, I want to join a boutique firm, I want to do what you're doing. Jen: So it changes too. Advert: Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom. And thanks for listening to the show. Well, that's validating. So you've gone through this process of sourcing people for your company, right, and what have you? What has that process and the learning? Jen: through that done to help you better advise your clients or vet candidates for them. What else about that I'm actually gonna go back to. So I took about five years. I left the executive search world and went to a consultancy and they I was director of talent. We tripled in size in about five years time and then they sold to Accenture about two years after I left. When I left, I think oil and gas was zero. The barrel, the barrel. Chris: I remember that yeah. Jen: So they made a strong comeback and then eventually sold. But being on the inside like that was the best education I could get, because it was. This is what happens when you make a really bad hire. This is what happens to the entire company when you make a really good hire. And we weren't huge I think we ended up being about a hundred but but it was really helpful to me to see. I also learned you know really short tenures on people's resume. There's a reason you know, I know there's reasons that people have to leave jobs absolutely there's good reasons, but when it's over and over and over, and then you hire that person because you're desperate for a data manager or whatever it is. You're desperate for that skill. You're going to find out why they can't stay in a job longer. I learned a lot being on the inside, you know, and I think that job is really what taught me kind of the hard knocks of making a mishire. Chris: Right. Well, I think you're to your point, right, it's if you look there are red flags, pay attention to them, and I know from our we're not perfect either in this business that I have, and you know sometimes you can convince yourself to overlook a red flag here or there, and more times than not you shouldn't. Right, there's exceptions to every rule, but we don't want to run a business based on exceptions necessarily You've got to be purposeful about those hires is really what it taught me. Jen: You know very purposeful. Chris: So just to kind of come back to Sutter's search a little bit so you have seven, about to have eight, and you talked about doing a search for a client where it was a culture change. Let's talk about culture at Sutter Search. What are you, as the kind of co-founder and CEO, doing to try to cultivate a culture? How would you describe it? And what are you doing to kind of, you know, foster it and breathe life into it? Jen: Yeah, it's hard with seven people, eight people, you know, to kind of create that, because you're like oh, we're just eight people, but they need it. Employees need training, they need to be developed, they need to evolve, they need to expand and grow, and so we actually started EOS at the beginning of this year. Are you familiar with entrepreneurial operating system? Chris: Yes. Jen: I think I don't know if Allie was the one that told me about it, but you know I've heard a lot of business owners that have done it, and so we actually started it and I think it's been evolutionary and I'm not selling it, I don't sell anything they do but it has really helped us be very purposeful about what we're doing for our employees, and so my one of our other managing directors is. She's in charge of kind of the HR and training, and so we have a weekly training every single week and it's sometimes it's heavier than others, but we have a weekly training every week and one of the employees actually gives it, so they have to go out and learn themselves and then they come and teach the rest of us. I try to. I'm a big advocate in the old school headhunting world is just dog eat, dog work, and so when I started my firm I was like I don't want to be that way. We're not working 12-hour days, we're not working both coasts, we're going to have a great and I hate to use the words work-life balance because I know it's overused. Chris: That's right. Jen: But we are, we're going to edit that part out. I'm kidding it is overused, but I think in some aspects it's important because you're a better employee if you take your vacation, if you didn't have to work until 9 pm the night before, if your managing director isn't calling you at 6 in the morning because she happens to be on the East Coast that is not the culture that we have. I'm always telling them you're going on vacation. Who's taking your emails? You're going on vacation. Who's taking your emails? You're going on vacation. Who's taking your calls? Did you put your out of? We require out of office messages to be turned on and I'm just, I'm always preaching that. I really think it's important to separate yourself and give your brain a break, because what we do is very, it's very repetitive, it's very. You know you may, if you have ten searches, that you have four candidates at least on what we usually have a hundred, but you have four finalists going through to offer yeah you think about the ups and downs every single day. Chris: It's a lot well, I mean, to your point, what you're doing, I mean, has to be stressful because you're affecting people's lives. Absolutely right, you got four candidates and or maybe see this as a great opportunity and are very hopeful, and you got a, a client, that needs to fill a hole and every day they don't have that whole field, they're losing money. So I can get that yeah to your point, the work-life balance and we could do a whole podcast on that. But I think what my experience has shown, or at least what I feel like I've learned through that, is our work-life balance is different at different times of our career. So it's hard to institutionalize that when everyone's at different stages. We try to use the term more like professional development. Developing our people to be great professionals means you tend to your business, but you tend to you have a life as well and you got to figure out how to manage both in a healthy way, knowing that the way it works for me now is totally different than it was 15 years ago right and that's okay because everything changes and we have new employees here that are going through totally different life stuff than I go through now. but how do we help give them the tools, the training to manage that and still be successful both in the office and in their personal life? Jen: Yeah, and we do we have different? Everybody kind of has a different work methodology. I shouldn't say hours, it's more like hours, you know a 20-something. They like to kind of work late in the day and have their workouts in the morning or whatever. Like everybody's kind of different. And then Hazel and I are about the same age and we like to not be disturbed until 8.30 or something. You know, like we like to go do our thing in the morning and work out and whatever. Read the paper and everybody's a little different, but we are very understanding of each other's different lifestyles. Right To your point. Chris: The key there comes to communication right. Yeah absolutely Absolutely, and so do you have. What is it that you're using as such to make sure those conversations are happening? Yeah, so that people understand how each other works differently, but together you can work for success. Jen: Yeah, we talk about it when they're hired. I say I'm not going to track your hours unless your productivity is not working Right, and then we're going to talk about it. Do you have too of a workload? Or, let's be honest, are you not working enough? You know, because last week you didn't have very many searches. This week you've got a lot. So if I need you to work till six, you gotta admit that last week you didn't have to. And they're very honest with me. A lot of times they'll say, hey, not going to be online until 10 or so, but I'm going to be working late or whatever. Or I stayed up for four hours last night sourcing. So you know I'll be available on phone but I'm not online. Perfectly okay, and we're very flexible that way. It's a little hard sometimes. You know, I'm always like are you working? I'm on the back of my brain and then I have to call myself and go. Of course they are, it's not producing. Chris: So that comes down to two fundamentals no matter what industry, communication, yeah, and what you're willing to do is have what some people might feel like is the harder conversation or uncomfortable conversation, but you approach it with kind of support and transparency. Jen: Yeah. Chris: The other thing. It comes down to productivity. Jen: Yeah, right. Chris: Absolutely. If we're running a business, we're running a for-profit business. We have to be productive to make the business go. So you can't lose sight of that. Some people, I fear at times the extracurriculars overweigh what we do to make our money and what is our. You go into the. This is what fuels our economic engine. We can't lose sight of that. It won't matter how many out-of policies or things we do, we won't have a business to support it. Jen: So it's finding a balance there, right? Yeah, I'd say the common denominator with all my employees is they thrive on success. They thrive on accomplishing things. They're not going to just shut things off if they're not done and they haven't accomplished what they set out to accomplish. They're very driven that way. That's a common denominator. Chris: Very good. So a little bit about your business. So you were saying you know, middle market focused, we're kind of approaching mid-year 2024, which is like just blows my mind that we're, you know, that far into the year already. But you know there are businesses out there that either use services like yourself or maybe contemplating that, and I know, at least in your world there's at least two different ways to go about it Retain, searches or kind of the contingency model. Can you just share maybe a little bit about what each is, the differences, pros and cons, and maybe flow into what a company should consider going one versus the other? Jen: Yeah. So I want to make it clear that I am not pro or con. Either way, I think there's a contingency, there's absolutely a place for it. I have several friends that are in the contingency recruiting world and they say I will never be in the retained world. So there is a place for it and I think if you have a large number of hires, you have a position or a company that is attractive to candidates and you want to get all the resumes you can get and then choose because they want to come to you, that's great. You can use contingency. What we do is a consultancy. So if you're a middle market working with a middle market firm right now, it's a downhole tool. Cfo position this position is critical that they get it right because they have big plans. I'm not going to tell you what those big plans are. They're private equity backed and they have big plans and it's going to happen, but if they don't have a financial expert that can devote time and devote, then it's not going to happen. And so it's critical, and in that situation you absolutely need to find the best person that you can find, and you need to interview a lot of people to make sure that you are choosing the right person, and so that's what we're doing. That's where we come in, and it doesn't have to be a CFO role. We can do. We do VPs and we do directors sure directors but we're going to look at 150 people that we know could do this job, and then we're going to reach out to every one of them and then we're going to interview 20 or 30. I'm going to interview half of those and then I'm going to present and rank the top. So it's not like we're going out and finding five people that are qualified and handing them to you. We're going out and finding 10 times that many maybe not 10 times, but a lot more than that and then finding you the best and ranking those for you to interview. So if it's a critical hire for your company to succeed, I would absolutely recommend retained, because they should be a retained firm, should be a consultancy, they should help you find that person. Chris: So that's really helpful, and hearing you describe it makes the difference very clear for me. I hope for the listeners and what I hear is you're doing a lot more upfront work on the retained side and I guess, as a consumer of these services, you should expect that your retained firm will do a lot more upfront work and vetting the best clients to bring to you. Jen: Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing I think that's important for my clients to know is our database is completely open. Our kimono is open. Is that a bad thing to say? Chris: No, we don't have video, so we're good. Jen: They can see everything we're doing, when we're doing, how we're doing. It's not a we'll talk to you in a month or two and we'll give you three great people. There's no magic thing that happens like that. It's a database they can go in. They can be like ooh, I know that guy and not going to work. Chris: Right, whatever reason, work right, whatever reason. So through, I guess, an online portal that you give them access to. Jen: okay and so it's a process to get to the fine. We meet once a week and I say here's why we chose, here's why we interview these people. What do you think? And a lot of times I'll say you know what? That company doesn't hire well, or they might be an acquisition on the horizon with that company. We can't talk to their people, so we have weekly conversations that get us closer and closer to the best person. And so it's a process, it's a very thorough process that gets us there. But that's 15, 30 minutes a week from our client, that's it. Chris: Okay, Well, they have to be invested, especially in these that are so critical. The positions to fill the client has to be invested. That's right and I like the somewhat. Maybe it's not. It sounds innovative to me that you are creating that opportunity for them to vet and see what's going on whenever they want. Right, but have those weekly check-ins. You know, it sounds like a kind of a white glove service, if you will. Jen: Yeah, and I think a lot of times people are scared, overtained. They're like what if it doesn't? What if you don't find someone? I'm like never happened in the history of 23 years, because we're talking to you and if we're not finding the right people, we're going to pivot, we're going to merge, we're going to figure out why is that happening. Is it the company reputation? Is it our pitch? Is it the way we're describing it? I mean, we're going after the wrong people. We will figure it out. We always fill the positions. Chris: Right Always, because you're invested in it. Right, right, it's not which. Jen: Because it's and it's not a. Here's three resumes, let me know. Chris: Right. Jen: That's not how it works. I got it. Chris: That makes sense. So a little bit, I just want to ask you're obviously, you know, leading this company. What, what would you or how would you describe your leadership style and how would you say that maybe has evolved over time based on your experience? Jen: So I would describe my leadership style as real. It's too real. I like to be pretty open with my employees and I have weekly calls with almost all of them I shouldn't say almost all of them. My fellow managing director we talk almost every day, so I don't have a weekly calls with almost all of them, I shouldn't say almost all of them. My fellow managing director we talk almost every day, so I don't have a weekly call with her. But the others, who I may not speak with, I have weekly calls. We talk about what's happening, what's going well, what is their workload like? I ask them what was the most challenging? Because we all work remote, so that's the other thing. We don't see each other every day right and I'll say what was the most challenging thing and what are you most proud of. And sometimes I had no idea. They're like oh well, I met that candidate at that event. I went to one of my. One of my employees told me that I'm like, I had no idea. Like you went to this networking event and happened to meet the right guy. So you know, just things like that. I try to have the communication very open yeah and they can tell me listen, I'm just not feeling well today or I'm mentally having some issues with home. I'm not going to tell you what it is, but I just need to sit back and I'm like, take the time, whatever you need to do. So I like to think I'm a pretty real manager. Chris: Yeah Well, it sounds like there's a lot of empathy that comes across in those calls, so they feel safe. Yeah, empathy, that comes across in those calls so they feel safe, and I think that's an important thing for a leader to be able to show empathy so that people will be more open and responsive, at whatever level your leadership is in the organization, is an important quality. It's interesting too, I think, that you asked about challenges, because I find it to be helpful to if you're kind of forced to reflect on what was really good about the last week and maybe what was a challenge, because we learn from both. Right, well, that's really good. Anything that you mentioned your stepmother earlier as a mentor, any learning from her that you kind of feel like you're implementing today and kind of carrying on some of the things you learned along the way from her Well, she is my free consultant, so you know, so I call her all the time. Jen: I'm like, okay, more free. Chris: Don't let her listen, she might start charging. Jen: She's fully retired, so she's like no problem. No, I think, being a peer to your clients and telling them no, sometimes you know she's not a yes man and I think I learned that, that you know you've got to push back. When you know, because of your 20 years experience, that something's wrong, you have to call the elephant in the room yeah and you have to say you, you may not skip this recruiting. You know, a lot of times my clients will get very excited about a candidate and they're like, well, can you just come see me tomorrow? And I'm like, no, he cannot because that's too fast for the candidate. They need time to process. You look too eager. I had one client that said it. He said I'm not coming to the first date with a diamond ring. You cannot come to the first date with a diamond ring, you have to let the process happen. But she was always very good about not being a yes man and I've learned that works and it pays off to help your clients be successful. Chris: It's funny that works and it pays off for to help your clients be successful. It's funny that reminds me there's an analogy that applies in all kinds of situations. But it's the cake right. So, just like you were saying, don't be too fast. Yeah, you can have all the right ingredients, mix it up, put it in the oven. If you pull it out too quick, it's going to flop yeah right. So you got to let the process, trust the process, let the process play out, and that applies in so many different aspects of business yeah, and these are humans that we're dealing with. Jen: These are people and they weren't thinking about a job change most likely. Chris: So you've got to let that change management process happen in their head, you know, let them go through that as well so good point to make and we'll repeat it that for what you're doing with these targeted executive searches, most likely the right person was not looking. The ones that are looking there could be one of those red flags there, Not always right, not always, but yeah. So, jen, this has been a fun conversation. Congratulations on your success, thank you. I want to ask you just a few things to wrap up. Yep, so obviously you've been in the search world, or executive search world, for you said 20 plus years. What was your first job? Jen: I remember you asked somebody else this, so I actually worked at a daycare for intellectually disabled kids and adults. Not that fun story that you wanted to hear, but it was fun. I absolutely loved it. I worked every summer. 0:36:20 - Chris: There had to be a lot of life lessons learned in that. Jen: Very challenging. These were kids that were not accepted at other daycares, even for special needs kids. And so I made $4.25 an hour. I was just telling this story because now I'm the chairman of the board for Special Olympics. Chris: Are you really? Jen: I am, and so they asked me my why, and I was like well, I did this for about five years, six years, all through college. I did summer camps and stuff, and so that population has a very soft spot in my heart. Chris: I love how that's come full circle in your life to be able to be doing what you're doing with Special Olympics. As an aside and maybe a plug, isn't Houston hosting the Special Olympics? Jen: next year, next year, I did not tell you that you didn't, but I just know we are right at rice, and is it 2025? Yeah, so that's a big deal, so huge those. Chris: Any listeners in houston, be on the lookout to go support that, what a great cause thank you, appreciate that all right. So my favorite question tex-mex or barbecue? Jen: tex-mex. I'm not a barbecue fan. My husband loves it, but I don't. Chris: Well, you know, you had no problem answering that question. Jen: Some people struggle so I love that In Texas only probably Right. Chris: So another question I get travel ideas from. So if you could do a 30-day sabbatical, where would you go and what would you do? Jen: Maine. Chris: Maine. Jen: We. If you could do a 30-day sabbatical, where would you go and what would you do? Maine, maine. We went to Maine last year. Oh my God, it's beautiful. We're empty nesters and so we're doing two-week working vacations. We just got back from Santa Fe and then we're hoping the next spring we're going to do Maine. Chris: Good for you. Yeah, I like that, kenny. Jen: Bunk or somewhere around there. Chris: Okay Well, you didn't let me finish a sentence, oh sorry, no, so I know you meant it right. Some people have to think about it. Jen: Oh, I knew. Yeah. Well, we're thinking about where we want to go now, so we've got a whole list. Chris: That's a fun process to go through. Yeah, it is so well, jen. Thanks again for coming. Special Guest: Jen Sudduth.

Patrick answers questions about the Holy Spirit's roll in the Old and the New Testament, how does the Catholic Church view the Orthodox Church, what is a Cursillo retreat, and how can I guide my adult children to come back to the Church? Thad - The Holy Spirit existed in the Old Testament, so what is the difference between the Holy Spirit of the Old and the New Testament? What is the difference between baptism and confirmation? Jonathan - What is the orthodox church considered in be in the context of Catholic Church? Gwen (email) – I picked up a garden flag with an image of the Sacred Heart of Jesus on it Chris - What was the article you talked about soft Catholics? Chris - Any tips of getting my young adult kids back into faith? Lilly - What is a Cursillo retreat? Ryan (email) – Question about liturgical colors Mary - I was a fallen away Catholic who finally came back after many prayers from my parents

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Culturally Determined is leaving BhTV, so here's how to keep following the show ... Tom Friedman's controversial column, "Biden-Cheney 2024?" ... Why Israel's anti-Netanyahu coalition could never happen in the US ... Aryeh's defense of Friedman's column ... A Hamilton song on Zoom, and other absurdities of centrist liberalism ... Chris: Any "grand coalition" would need to have Bernie and AOC in the lead ... Returning to the "is Trump a fascist" debate ... Has Trump moved on to other grifts? See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Download this Episode On today's episode, we talk about the shiny object, ways to build your business and modern marketing. Please leave us a review and subscribe for more! reThink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 24:20 RTRE 64 – Get Off My Lawn: A Guide to Modern Marketing in Real Estate [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. Chris here with Christian and Nate. What's going on guys? [Christian]: Hey fellas. [Nathan]: What's up? Another week since last week. And I don't know. You know, the usual grind here. It's… [Christian]: You seem excited to be alive. [Chris]: ow's your CRM coming Nate? [laugter] [Nathan]: It's gonna get done after I get back from Key West next week. So… [Christian]: Let me know. I will walk you through it.  [Chris]: Man. [Nathan]: Work hard play hard boys. Work hard play hard. [Chris]: Must be good to be a real estate agent.  [Nathan]: I guess so. [Christian]: It is good to be an agent.  [Nathan]: I like it. What are we talking about today? [Chris]: Well we were just talking about [censored] marketing in real estate and how not to do it. You were just showing us a sign of a real estate agent that put his sign out in the middle of the Utah backcountry. On a…what was that Nate? [Nathan]: I mean literally it's in bum [censored] Egypt. I mean it was out…I mean literally it's a like a 16 mile hike. Like I mean maybe it's genius because here I am talking about it. Right. I don't know. [Chris]: Good marketing. [Nathan]: You know, I mean I don't know. But literally like it's like who's gonna see this, you know. Like you spent a…I mean what's an average sign cost? Hundred bucks? [Chris]: 47. [Nathan]: What's that? [Chris]: 47. [Nathan]: You use the cheap one.  [Christian]: Depends on how many you buy at a time. [Chris]: That's a temporary sign with the thing in the middle. [Nathan]: OK well either way I feel like this guy throw away 47 dollars. Because I doubt he'll ever go back to get it. But, you know, bad marking. You know, Christian was asking me do I do marketing. No. I mean yes and no. I think we've talked a little bit about that. That Ohio running realtor Instagram is of course my marketing. Even though it has nothing to do with Realty. [Christian]: Your Donut Saturday with your son. That's marketing. [Nathan]: It is but it had…I mean that was actually started before I became an agent. So I'll be at…a ton of people identify me through the donut Saturday. But I don't…I don't…I don't mail stuff out. I don't, you know, I'm not out blasting stuff on social media. I really hate most of that stuff. I think there's…there's more organic ways to do it. and I generally find that there's more bad examples than good examples. [Christian]: Yeah so you're saying that there are different ways to do marketing? [Nathan]: Yes but…let's go…there's…there's many different ways to do marketing. The question is can you do it well? And my answer would be no. Most agents do not do it well. [Christian]: So there's plenty of examples of bad marketing. How do you…how do you not do bad marketing and do good marketing? What is that? What does that mean? What are those standards? [Nathan]: Well I think…OK so I, you know, how do you not do bad marketing? OK well that'd be like saying all right, it's same reason I don't take pictures. Right. I'm not a [censored] photographer. And I'm not in marketing either.  If you have a marketing background, maybe I get it. But most of the stuff I see agents do is poor. It's poor video. It's poor pictures. They're there…I don't know what even the terminology is when they create their own business cards. It's just horrible. Like there's a reason there are people they get paid in marketing. And you should go pay them to do it. I mean you get a better result. I'd rather be really… [Christian]: Do you? Do you Nate? [Nathan]: Yeah I think so absolutely.  [Chris]: So please do not go buy the printable like perforated business cards and then use your word art. And print them. [laughter] [Nathan]: Yeah word art. Yeah right. Well you see a lot of that. You see really bad names of real estate teams. And, you know, it's just like oh man it's so tacky. I mean there's…I guess there's a place for them because they're still doing business. But… [Christian]: Well…well I'll back this up a little bit. I don't know if you wanna scratch this or not. So, you know, we've got a bit… [Chris]: No this is all good.  [Nathan]: I know you've been picking at soething.  [Chris]: This is alright.  [Christian]: So so far we've kind of [censored] around about bad marketing which is very subjective. Because… [Chris]: Welcome to the water cooler. [Christian]: What's that? [Chris]: Welcome to the water cooler.  [Christian]: Right, you know, like I myself when it comes to marketing try to put myself at the consumers shoes. And say “OK what's, you know, what…what's the objective of the marketing and am I accomplishing that?” You know, and so I think there's unfortunately most…at least in my experience, most, you know, brokerages and agents. You know, there's kind of the standard of like “Yeah well you do a farm, you know, and you just solds and just listed postcards and you have, you know, your face on your business card and, you know, just kind of all this really low bar like everyone does it. Everyone's told to do it.”  And people who aren't agents don't pay any attention to it. They don't care. You know, it doesn't bring them any value. It goes right in the recycling. You know, you direct me on stuff. And so that brings a question about what is…what is good marketing. Yeah I know what caught my attention as a new agent when I saw social media stuff that stood out or community events or, you know, things that I thought were interesting and unique in this space.  And I think that's kind of the key. Is like is it different? Is it gonna catch people's attention in an industry of white noise? Or, you know…And so I think a lot of that there's not just like hey you do this one thing and that's good marketing. I think in this world of noise, you have to have many touch points. It has to be consistent. It has to be driven towards a specific end result. You know, whether that's someone saving up for email or a meeting or liking your page or following you. You know, like it all has to be designed in a consistent way to…to push people towards a certain desired objective. And most people don't approach marketing in that way. There's kind of like half hazard-ly throw stuff out there without a desired intention in mind.  [Chris]: It's a weak thought Christian. Among real estate agents. [Christian]:  What's that? [Chris]: To think about how the consumer is gonna like the content and the message. [Christian]: Yeah.  [Chris]: You know, it's…I'm not a marketer. By all means like that's not my forte. I can train a real estate agent to sell and have a successful business. I could teach them some of the techniques that they should think about when they're finding how to market themselves. But by all means I am NOT a marketer. Like I'm not gonna create a campaign. I am NOT gonna run all that stuff. I'll leave that to other people who are more creative than I am and just let them do their thing. [Christian]: But it certainly had that desired effect to you once. And you could send that to a marketer. [Chris]: I…I know what we need to accomplish. And so here in Georgia, we…we actually do recruit new agents at my firm. So we have…we get all of the information for the people who pass and we send out collateral. We send out like we send out really nice marketing pieces to them. And so my wife recently got her real estate license to help out in the office because she's a part owner in the company. So some of the things that she's doing, she needs a license now. So she got her license and just for the hell of it we decided “OK we're gonna see what other brokerages are sending out.” And it ranges. Some of them send out, you know, one eight-and-a-half by 11 piece of paper that's a letter. Some of them send out postcards. Some of them send out…there's one KW office. They send out like this worksheet. Right. And it's got this three boxes or three columns and a bunch of rows. And each row it's like “Check about if this broker offers this.” It's like a broker checklist. Interview other brokers and see if they have everything we have. [Christian]: Like a comparison sheet. [Chris]: Yes. Yes that's exactly what it is. And that was probably the most creative. There was a Coldwell Banker office, it sent three po…three postcards from the exact same broker. Brokers face on it. And then it has like no message. Right like the postcard says like “Be bold.” Or like “Be strong.” Like on one. And it's like you've got two or three words taking up the entirety of this like six by nine postcard. And it doesn't say anything of value at all. It's just like motivational [censored]. So then like we look at what we're sending out. And we're sending out this like…we're sending out two mailings, in depth packet of everything that the company offers on this. Like premium glossy photo. And I'm like “You know what? This is why people call us off of this stuff. It's because these other brokers that are in our market doing this, it's garbage.” You got to…you got to focus on what the consumer is gonna want. I'm glad you do that. [Christian]: Sure. Well I think to, you know, the key in on what you said, you know, it's a little cliche these days or whatever. But talking about bringing value. Right. Like you've got to resonate with whoever you're trying to get in front of with something that…that they're going to, well, resonate with. You know, there's gonna be a value that they use. That…that catchphrase. And so it's typically not going to be “Hey I just sold this house or I closed in five days.” They don't give a [censored]. They don't know what that means. Like, you know, but if you are like, you know, you're specializing in a certain community. And, you know, you're sending out something who says “Hey have you checked out this new pizza joint that they just opened? Here's the interview with the owner.” You know, like that doesn't have anything to do the real estate. But you're getting your name and message out there. In alignment with “Hey this person is actually invested in the community. Actually supporting that business of actually providing something to the people that would frequent that business, who might find that interesting.” As an example of, you know, a community aligned marketing strategy that's, you know, one touch piece amongst many.  You know, whether that's, you know, if you're gonna do a farm have that be consistent. And there's technology you can utilize to do, you know, retargeting Facebook or Google Ads that, you know, have that consistent message to those same people you're mailing. If they, you know…you know that kind of thing. But that takes planning. That takes technical expertise. And I think that's a far cry from, you know, Nate was saying “Hey I'm not a marketer. Hire that [censored] out.” And I agree with. That but there's so a lot of low bar marketing stuff out there, that's like…My last brokerage, you know, they've had like a social media company come in who basically said “Hey, you know what Facebook is? We'll take care of that for you. And what they meant by that is “If you sign up with us, we're gonna send out this exact same [censored] generic posting…” [Chris]: That you would. [Christian]: Yeah right. And like, you know, I'd be falling for some this people. And you'd see the exact same posting on six different agents sites in the same company, because they're just sending out the same generic [censored]. I'm like that does more to harm you and your reputation that does to like not send anything out at all. [Chris]: Definitely. One of the major things that I learned when…when we started doing SEO on our website, is that for any third party, like if you really want to get your money's worth, you have to hire in-house. Like if you're not hiring in-house, you're just going out and hiring a firm, unless they are a premium level firm where you have a dedicated account manager that is spending X number of hours on your account every month…you're just not gonna get your money's worth. [Christian]: Right and it's not gonna be cheap. [Chris]: Hire in-house.  [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: Where you have to monitor it in-house and then outsource the work itself. But to just go out and say “Here take care of it.” That's…that's like, you know, you're eating in a den of snakes.  [Christian]: Right. Well and if you're gonna hire that out, if you're an agent you're like “Hey marketing is not my forte. I'm gonna hire it out.” you better make sure that wherever you hire is asking you questions. To make sure that that content is, you know, in your voice. It's, you know, it's not gonna be, you know, if someone who's following X agent knows you personally, and they see something coming out, they're like “That doesn't sound like them. They wouldn't send something out like that.” Like now you've got a authenticity issue. And, you know, you're going to be doing more damage. I mean especially as you we're seeing, you know, the demographic shift and the impact of social media. What people care about is…is authenticity, being genuine. If they catch wind of “Oh you just hiring out some generic someone, someone, some bot or some company is running your social media…yeah unfriend. Not interested. I'm not going to work with them because, you know, they can't even bother to post real stuff from themselves.” [Chris]: If you're looking to hire an ad agency, you're gonna be on retainer for a minimum of 5k a month. And that does not include your ad spend. Like if you want a good ad agency, if…if you're just looking to hire, you know, a marketing consultant who's gonna charge you, you know, 150 dollars a month, for this number of posts on social media, it…it's…you might as well light your money on fire. It's not going to do anything for you. [Christian]: Well there's different…I mean they're just from models, you know. I mean I'm a very DIY person. But I also know that me, I'm not a professional marketer. Like I know, you know, kind of the strategy aspect of it and…but, you know, I've hired like a local marketer. Who would sit down with me and flush out, you know “OK this is what you have going on. How to be aware where are your missing pieces. And not leverage things where they're not connected.” That kind of stuff and kind of map it out for me. And then I go execute it. Now if you can hire someone to execute it's, that is gonna be a lot more expensive. Because that's very times, you know, intensive.  [Chris]: Yeah I mean and that's gonna be the difference. Like you can…you can bring in a consultant, for almost anything. But then you have to do the work. And the consultant is not gonna come up with the whole idea for you. They're gonna help you work through it. So but if you want…but if you're…My point is, you know, if you're hiring, you know, the hundred and fifty hundred and ninety nine dollar marketing company online, that's a subscription, versus you really want advertising, it's a difference.  Like you've got that retainer every single month. And you've got to hit that spend limit with them. And that does not include your ads. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: They'll go through and they'll do everything from your direct mail pieces, to video creation, to all of it. [Christian]: Right. And that's gonna be an actual marketing campaign with multiple platforms and tiers. Not just “Hey we're sending out social media posts on your Facebook.” It's entirely different. And I mean it's some agents who don't, you know, see the benefit of that. Or like “I don't have time for that” you know, like Nate. I mean he stays busy enough and successful enough to not need that. But…but I mean the stuff he does organically is still marketing. It's just not your typical overt cheesy agent stuff. Which I think speaks…it's a lot more powerful than if you did the traditional “Just sold, just listed, hey look at me, I'm in an open house.” You know, and everything's just overtly real estate. Which it doesn't resonate with the majority of people, the majority of the time. [Nathan]: No and, you know, I think you actually…what's you're gonna see and unbeknownst to you guys, but you're gonna see me doing a little more marketing here in the future. But yeah well I have the luxury though of…Our company just brought on a marketing director that has a very strong marketing background. So we will have an in-house marketing department that… [Christian]: Nice. [Nathan]: Make, you know, will be able to take on what visions I have. Or I don't want to say visions. I call them thoughts. Yeah I mean I had a meeting with her last week. She's awesome and I…I equate what she can do to what like my tattoo guy does. Right. I come up with this wild little sketch on a piece of paper that looks like a third-grader did it. I say “Hey here.” And then a week later he hands it back and I'm like “I don't know how you got that, but it's perfect.” You know… [Christian]: Sure. They will take your vision and make it into something. [Nathan]: And make it into something and Karen will be able to do that for it. Some…a lot of brokerages I don't think have, you know, that good fortune of having a marketing director that has a very solid background with a large company that can create some of these things we want. Within the vision that you need to do. I think it's important that whatever your theme is, you have consistency with it. And a lot of people don't do that. I think a lot of real estate and what you do is marketing. Right. So if you're gonna do it, do it well. [Christian]: Sure. Well I think a lot of agents don't realize it like what they're putting out there, you know, is represent themselves. You know, because I mean you can have your marketing and your advertising. Typically people use them interchangeably. But they're not, you know. Like for us, you know, we just, you know, ponied…pointed up. And…and hired Max the designs to…to do our marketing piece, you know, pieces. Which is essentially a design firm, you know, small design team down Los Angeles that walks you through a creation process of like everything, from color scheme to…to fonts to like what's the feel, you know, your brokerage has. And all those kind of stuff to make stuff that's customized for you. All the pieces are consistent. Totally customized to provide a platform. All your agents can log in and create their own stuff. Customize it, you know, download it.  Like all that is like the bare minimum marketing pieces that you can then use for presentations or social media stuff. Or…or whatever. But, you know, something like that gives you a consistency for your agents, for your firm. But then on top of that you've got the actual “OK I'm gonna run a marketing campaign and that requires, you know, some intentional thought behind. What's my desire goal? What messages are gonna resonate with whom? What platforms win?” You know, much more complex than just aesthetic marketing piece.  You're muted.  [Nathan]: Everybody got quiet. So… [Chris]: No one's muted. We just were talking…[laughter]. All right. Well I think that is definitely you now… [Christian]: Helpful. Hopefully it's interesting. Oh boy this is the funny part.  [Nathan]: Anyway.  [Chris]: No I mean it's…it's great. We…we haven't put anything in place like that for our firm right now. Even though we have a…our listing coordinator has a marketing background. She's actually in portfolio school right now. So to kind of an extent we can…we have that ability. She'll bounce some ideas off of us. We'll bounce ideas off of her. Actually just to make sure we're not doing anything stupid.  But for everything with us, it's a lot of…it's word-of-mouth. And I think that that's another type of marketing that people don't pay enough attention to. Going back a few years to when Scott Stratten [phonetics] talked about on marketing. At Inman he said, you know “If you want word of mouth, what do you do? You do something worth talking about.” So there…there's that whole aspect to marketing our businesses. Doing things like Ritz Carlton. Doing things like Disney. Doing things…taking so much advanced precaution with our clients, thinking about their problems before they ever have it. That that way the client has no other alternative but to say how great their experience was. And I think that that's something that, you know, we need to figure out or put more focus on also, because that stuff's free. [Christian]: Yeah well and that's what, you know, for all that you're leveraging the client experience. Right. It's how you do your business, you know. All the marketing advertising is how you build up from, you know, getting in front of people to get them to that place where they're your client. And then that experience comes in and the referral business can happen. It's all part of a, you know, a long cycle of business. Hopefully. [Chris]: Absolutely. So I think that's good. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: Any final thoughts while you're at it? [Christian]: I would say as an agent, know your strengths, know your weaknesses. Don't try to do everything. Hire out the stuff that you're not an expert in. In this case marketing. But, you know, you got to find…you got to find someone that can draw out what that vision is. So that it's consistent. Enhances your brand as opposed to completely contradicts your…consistency. [laughter] Words. [Chris]: Nate any final thoughts? [Nathan]: No. Stay off Facebook. Don't request me. [laughter]. Get off my lawn you kids. Seriously I was like…all of that stuff that everybody else does, don't [censored] do it.  [Christian]: There's that. [Nathan]: I don't want to be your friend because you're not gonna sell me a house. All right. All right. Guys good luck and hope it works out for you. [Chris]: Yeah. All right so basically there's different types of marketing. Figure out what you want. Avoid the shiny object. Don't think that you're gonna find something that is going to solve all of your problems for one low monthly subscription. And then don't leave out the word of mouth. Make sure you're doing the things for your clients in your daily business. Make sure that your clients are your number one focus. Because guess what? Costs a whole lot less to keep a client than it does to acquire a new one. Everybody this has been re:Think Real Estate. We'll catch you next Monday. [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Panel: Joe Eames Chris Fritz Divya Sasidharan Special Guest: Guillaume Chau In this episode, the panel talks with Guillaume Chau who is apart of the VueJS core team, a frontend engineer at Livestorm, and an open source contributor. The guest and the panelists talk about plugins, Webpack, Vue CLI, and much more! Check out today’s episode to hear all of the details.  Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement – Kendo UI 1:00 – Chris lists who is on the panel along with today’s guest. Chris: Who are you and what are you working on? 1:50 – Guest: I am working on a startup in Paris. I am calling in from Lyon, France. 2:12 – Panel: Late there? 2:15 – Panel: Almost time for dinner? 2:21 – Guest: Yes, it’s cooking now! 2:26 – Panel asks a question. 2:43 – Guest answers the question. 3:14 – Panel: Anyone who didn’t want to be an expert, they don’t’ have to worry about how things tie together – you could help them with their configurations? 3:36 – Guest: A lot of the work is done for you with the configurations so you can start writing your apps. 3:53 – Panel: How is 3 different from 2? 4:06 – Guest: It’s like a new tool entirely. It’s working very different, too, with a different system. It has a different template base.  5:53 – Panel: To combine templates you have to understand it well, like different Webpacks. 6:12 – Guest: Regarding Webpacks and their configurations... 6:52 – Panel: With the template situation there was an issue where they would make their project and as new versions of Webpack came out...and new versions of Babble, and they will have to manage the dependencies of all of these. There might be some plugins that only work with x, y, and z. IT can be frustrating – can version 3 take care of this for you? 7:44 – Guest answers the question. 9:24 – Panel: How do you update plugins? 9:29 – Guest. 10:26 – Panel: Upgrade your plugins then as long as all of your plugins are the same version it’s okay? 10:34 – Guest: Yes. You can upgrade your... 11:38 – Chris: Divya, you just gave a talk (London) on...plugins, right? 11:50 – Divya: Yes. We talked about Webpack configurations. For example, if there are some testing libraries you can essentially setup a UCLI plugin to create a test – create a test folder – plugins let you generate files or folders (structure your project in a certain way). In London I talked about server less functions with... 13:30 – Panel: Any kind of pattern you want to use in different applications you can wrap that up in a plugin? 13:42 – Divya: Yes. Exactly. Instead of repeating yourself you can wrap it up. It’s really handy. 14:00 – Panel asks a question. 14:02 – Divya: You could do that... 14:10 – Panel: ...or a graph QL – Yes! 14:20 – Guest. 14:33 – Chris: Any thing that third-party plugins don’t have access to? 14:43 – Guest. 14:54 – Chris. 15:08 – Guest. 15:25 – Divya: ...if you want a UCLI service...and so you can grab those commands and add-on those commands and using those default commands. You have access to those commands, so you don’t always... 17:02 – Chris: Like deploy? 17:11 – Divya: Yes. 17:17 – Guest. 17:19 – Divya. Divya: Do you have strategies on how you go about testing your plugins? 17:35 – Guest: Yes, I do. 19:23 – Panel: So this is like end-to-end test for a CLI tool? 19:33 – Guest. 19:50 – Panel: Is there documentation for all of this? 19:59 – Guest. 20:14 – Divya: I think the way I’ve done tests is to edit an example a test project as a local dependency and then seeing that it works. I want to make sure that it works. Divya: And the other way I’ve done it is VUE CLI it is undocumented at the moment. You can test your CLI plugin from within the plugin itself. 21:55 – Guest: I’ve used some of those before. 22:08 – Chris: Speaking of the UI that is something I’d love to talk about. It seems unique to me – a CLI tool that has a UI that is built along with it. That seems strange to some people – how does that work and WHY would you need it? 22:42 – Guest: I’ll start with the WHY. It is way more powerful and as a greeter the API interface is more fixable so you can choose different options. For example when you create a project you can set different things. You basically have to name the project and you have simple options to choose form. Now it’s basically a really fixable system with plugins and stuff like that. I thought it would be nice to free it from the terminal. The best way to do that was creating a graphical interface. The main advantage of this was that you could add more information and explanations to what is going on. You can also create better interface. Guest: Also, it currently improves discoverability. 25:30 – Chris: You could do a search in the UI and type in the name of something you are working with and then your plugin would show up in the list – and then it would just be added to their project. That’s nice so they don’t have to go to the NPM or doing the README. 26:07 – Guest. 26:14 – Divya: I think it’s nice b/c I have used it extensively for my plugin. I want to see what hasn’t been taken already. I have a way of organizing my modules and I’ve used to it see what names have already been taken? 26:47 – Guest: I think sometimes... 27:15 – Divya: The feature that you are able to run tasks from the UI is nice. 27:55 – Chris: It sounds like it offers a nicer way to view a lot of things. One of the other advantages (that I found) is that I have a configuration to the listing rules to Vue – you can pick the exact rule set that you want to use. Normally when you look at a configuration file, you don’t know what rule sets are available, you don’t know what options are available. All of this you have to look at documentation. You can see descriptions of what each rule does. You can do so much in the UI. 29:19 – Guest. 29:40 – Advertisement – Get A Coder Job! 30:25 – Chris: Do they still need a terminal? 30:35 – Guest. 32:41 – Chris: That would be cool! 32:46 – Guest. 33:09 – Chris: They still need a little terminal knowledge right? 33:15 – Guest: Yes. 33:33 – Chris: They need a little terminal knowledge, they need to install the package, then they need to run VUE UI, then they can do anything from the terminal inside of the UI? 33:55 – Guest: You can create and import existing projects. 34:28 – Panel. 34:33 – Chris. 34:36 – Panel: It’s already active? 34:43 – Guest: I would like to talk about what I did in London. That conference I talked about... 37:00 – Panel. 37:07 – Guest. 37:20 – Panel: Nice! 37:25 – Guest. Guest: All of these widgets that I talked about you can use the product API and do anything that you want. 38:47 – Chris: If someone wants to see the dashboard that you are doing – where can they see that stuff? 39:00 – Guest: GitHub. Follow the manuscript instructions. 39:16 – Chris: Your London talk was recorded? 39:22 – Guest: Yes. 39:27 – Guest. 39:38 – Divya: Are you planning on giving this talk in other events? 39:47 – Guest: Maybe not anytime soon. 39:56 – Chris. 40:00 – Divya. 40:09 – Guest: It might be release already we don’t know. 40:15 – Divya: A date you would like to release by? 40:25 – Chris: Where can people support you and your work? 40:35 – Guest: Yes, they definitely can. You can check out the GitHub file. Also, check-out my open source work, too. 41:17 – Chris: Twitter? 41:19 – Guest: Yes. 41:24 – Chris: You have cute cat pictures, too. Let’s go to Picks!! 41:40 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! DEVCHAT code. 30-day trial. Links: Vue VUE CLI 3 Vue CLI – NPM React Angular JavaScript DevChat TV Article: Infrequently Noted Vue.js Fundamentals GetKap Snipcart Netlify Webpack.js Guillaume Chau’s Vue.JS LONDON Guillaume Chau’s Twitter Guillaume Chau’s LinkedIn Guillaume Chau’s GitHub Guillaume Chau’s GitHub Repositories Guillaume Chau’s ABOUT in Patreon.com Guillaume Chau’s Medium Guillaume Chau’s Info Divya’s London Talk Webpack – Configurations Graph QL Sponsors: Fresh Books Cache Fly Kendo UI Get A Coder Job! Picks: Joe VueJS Fundamentals Developer Experience Bait and Switch Divya Get Kap Snipcart How we built a Due CLI Plugin for Netlify Lambda Chris Meditation Gratefulness Guillaume Exercise The Expanse

Panel: Joe Eames Chris Fritz Divya Sasidharan Special Guest: Guillaume Chau In this episode, the panel talks with Guillaume Chau who is apart of the VueJS core team, a frontend engineer at Livestorm, and an open source contributor. The guest and the panelists talk about plugins, Webpack, Vue CLI, and much more! Check out today’s episode to hear all of the details.  Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement – Kendo UI 1:00 – Chris lists who is on the panel along with today’s guest. Chris: Who are you and what are you working on? 1:50 – Guest: I am working on a startup in Paris. I am calling in from Lyon, France. 2:12 – Panel: Late there? 2:15 – Panel: Almost time for dinner? 2:21 – Guest: Yes, it’s cooking now! 2:26 – Panel asks a question. 2:43 – Guest answers the question. 3:14 – Panel: Anyone who didn’t want to be an expert, they don’t’ have to worry about how things tie together – you could help them with their configurations? 3:36 – Guest: A lot of the work is done for you with the configurations so you can start writing your apps. 3:53 – Panel: How is 3 different from 2? 4:06 – Guest: It’s like a new tool entirely. It’s working very different, too, with a different system. It has a different template base.  5:53 – Panel: To combine templates you have to understand it well, like different Webpacks. 6:12 – Guest: Regarding Webpacks and their configurations... 6:52 – Panel: With the template situation there was an issue where they would make their project and as new versions of Webpack came out...and new versions of Babble, and they will have to manage the dependencies of all of these. There might be some plugins that only work with x, y, and z. IT can be frustrating – can version 3 take care of this for you? 7:44 – Guest answers the question. 9:24 – Panel: How do you update plugins? 9:29 – Guest. 10:26 – Panel: Upgrade your plugins then as long as all of your plugins are the same version it’s okay? 10:34 – Guest: Yes. You can upgrade your... 11:38 – Chris: Divya, you just gave a talk (London) on...plugins, right? 11:50 – Divya: Yes. We talked about Webpack configurations. For example, if there are some testing libraries you can essentially setup a UCLI plugin to create a test – create a test folder – plugins let you generate files or folders (structure your project in a certain way). In London I talked about server less functions with... 13:30 – Panel: Any kind of pattern you want to use in different applications you can wrap that up in a plugin? 13:42 – Divya: Yes. Exactly. Instead of repeating yourself you can wrap it up. It’s really handy. 14:00 – Panel asks a question. 14:02 – Divya: You could do that... 14:10 – Panel: ...or a graph QL – Yes! 14:20 – Guest. 14:33 – Chris: Any thing that third-party plugins don’t have access to? 14:43 – Guest. 14:54 – Chris. 15:08 – Guest. 15:25 – Divya: ...if you want a UCLI service...and so you can grab those commands and add-on those commands and using those default commands. You have access to those commands, so you don’t always... 17:02 – Chris: Like deploy? 17:11 – Divya: Yes. 17:17 – Guest. 17:19 – Divya. Divya: Do you have strategies on how you go about testing your plugins? 17:35 – Guest: Yes, I do. 19:23 – Panel: So this is like end-to-end test for a CLI tool? 19:33 – Guest. 19:50 – Panel: Is there documentation for all of this? 19:59 – Guest. 20:14 – Divya: I think the way I’ve done tests is to edit an example a test project as a local dependency and then seeing that it works. I want to make sure that it works. Divya: And the other way I’ve done it is VUE CLI it is undocumented at the moment. You can test your CLI plugin from within the plugin itself. 21:55 – Guest: I’ve used some of those before. 22:08 – Chris: Speaking of the UI that is something I’d love to talk about. It seems unique to me – a CLI tool that has a UI that is built along with it. That seems strange to some people – how does that work and WHY would you need it? 22:42 – Guest: I’ll start with the WHY. It is way more powerful and as a greeter the API interface is more fixable so you can choose different options. For example when you create a project you can set different things. You basically have to name the project and you have simple options to choose form. Now it’s basically a really fixable system with plugins and stuff like that. I thought it would be nice to free it from the terminal. The best way to do that was creating a graphical interface. The main advantage of this was that you could add more information and explanations to what is going on. You can also create better interface. Guest: Also, it currently improves discoverability. 25:30 – Chris: You could do a search in the UI and type in the name of something you are working with and then your plugin would show up in the list – and then it would just be added to their project. That’s nice so they don’t have to go to the NPM or doing the README. 26:07 – Guest. 26:14 – Divya: I think it’s nice b/c I have used it extensively for my plugin. I want to see what hasn’t been taken already. I have a way of organizing my modules and I’ve used to it see what names have already been taken? 26:47 – Guest: I think sometimes... 27:15 – Divya: The feature that you are able to run tasks from the UI is nice. 27:55 – Chris: It sounds like it offers a nicer way to view a lot of things. One of the other advantages (that I found) is that I have a configuration to the listing rules to Vue – you can pick the exact rule set that you want to use. Normally when you look at a configuration file, you don’t know what rule sets are available, you don’t know what options are available. All of this you have to look at documentation. You can see descriptions of what each rule does. You can do so much in the UI. 29:19 – Guest. 29:40 – Advertisement – Get A Coder Job! 30:25 – Chris: Do they still need a terminal? 30:35 – Guest. 32:41 – Chris: That would be cool! 32:46 – Guest. 33:09 – Chris: They still need a little terminal knowledge right? 33:15 – Guest: Yes. 33:33 – Chris: They need a little terminal knowledge, they need to install the package, then they need to run VUE UI, then they can do anything from the terminal inside of the UI? 33:55 – Guest: You can create and import existing projects. 34:28 – Panel. 34:33 – Chris. 34:36 – Panel: It’s already active? 34:43 – Guest: I would like to talk about what I did in London. That conference I talked about... 37:00 – Panel. 37:07 – Guest. 37:20 – Panel: Nice! 37:25 – Guest. Guest: All of these widgets that I talked about you can use the product API and do anything that you want. 38:47 – Chris: If someone wants to see the dashboard that you are doing – where can they see that stuff? 39:00 – Guest: GitHub. Follow the manuscript instructions. 39:16 – Chris: Your London talk was recorded? 39:22 – Guest: Yes. 39:27 – Guest. 39:38 – Divya: Are you planning on giving this talk in other events? 39:47 – Guest: Maybe not anytime soon. 39:56 – Chris. 40:00 – Divya. 40:09 – Guest: It might be release already we don’t know. 40:15 – Divya: A date you would like to release by? 40:25 – Chris: Where can people support you and your work? 40:35 – Guest: Yes, they definitely can. You can check out the GitHub file. Also, check-out my open source work, too. 41:17 – Chris: Twitter? 41:19 – Guest: Yes. 41:24 – Chris: You have cute cat pictures, too. Let’s go to Picks!! 41:40 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! DEVCHAT code. 30-day trial. Links: Vue VUE CLI 3 Vue CLI – NPM React Angular JavaScript DevChat TV Article: Infrequently Noted Vue.js Fundamentals GetKap Snipcart Netlify Webpack.js Guillaume Chau’s Vue.JS LONDON Guillaume Chau’s Twitter Guillaume Chau’s LinkedIn Guillaume Chau’s GitHub Guillaume Chau’s GitHub Repositories Guillaume Chau’s ABOUT in Patreon.com Guillaume Chau’s Medium Guillaume Chau’s Info Divya’s London Talk Webpack – Configurations Graph QL Sponsors: Fresh Books Cache Fly Kendo UI Get A Coder Job! Picks: Joe VueJS Fundamentals Developer Experience Bait and Switch Divya Get Kap Snipcart How we built a Due CLI Plugin for Netlify Lambda Chris Meditation Gratefulness Guillaume Exercise The Expanse

Panel: Charles Max Wood Chris Fritz Special Guest: Kyle Holmberg & Alex Regan In this episode, the panel talks with two guests Kyle and Alex who work together in opensource. Kyle is a software engineer at AutoGravity interested in full-stack web development, graphic design, integrated systems, data visualizations, and soccer. Alex writes code and works with Parametric Studios, and he also loves puppies. Check out today’s episode where the panel and the two guests talk about the different frameworks and contributing to opensource. Show Topics: 3:03 – We got together because Alex mentioned his project. He was looking for something to get up running nice and easy. Boot Strap 4. That is a nice choice and I was contributing as a core team member at the time. He started with how do I get started with Boot Strap Vue. At the time I asked how do you do this...? And that’s how we got started. 4:03 – Guest continues more with this conversation. 4:30 – Chris: How did you start contributing within your company? 4:44 – Guest: There is a lot of autonomy with the last company I was working with (3 people there). I needed more fine tooth hooks and modals. Someone says X and you try to figure it out. So I was looking at the transitions, and there was a bug there. They hadn’t implemented any hooks, and I thought I could figure this out. From there, if you want a change I can help out. I don’t know if that change got implemented first. I started contributing some things to the library. I really got involved where someone (the creator of the library said you could be a core member. He took a trust in me. I started a lot in test coverage. That might not be the normal path to take. 6:39 – How long have you been developing? 6:42 – Guest: A year and a half. 7:00 – Chris: Any tips to opensource for beginners. 7:10 – Guest: Yes, having a thick skin. Everyone is anonymous on the Internet. People say things that they normally wouldn’t say in person. I figure if you put something out there someone will correct you. How can I get feedback? If you put yourself out there it’s like: failure to success. That process is what makes you better. 8:21 – Chris: Issues and chat like that. There is a lot of context that gets lost. When you just see the text it may seem angry 8:43 – Guest: I have a tendency towards sarcasm, and I have to save that to last. People come from different languages, and I’m not talking about software languages. English isn’t everyone’s first language. Good thing to keep in-mind. 9:14 – Internet is an international community. 9:22 – Guest continues this talk. Opensource is good to work on to get started with contributions. Especially with Operation Code it’s geared towards beginners; less complex. 10:30 – That is a good difference to show. 11:01 – Question. 11:05 – Guest. If you are a person with a lot of skin in their projects – I take pride in my work – I think if you have that mentality that you will want to submit to every request. Find some way to test every request against a...is this my concern or their concern? Figure out the boundaries. You will make mistakes and that’s fine. 11:54 – Panelist. 12:02 – Guest: Coming up with good interface boundaries for your libraries. 12:11 – Chuck: Once we figured out what really mattered than it makes it easier to say: yes or no. 12:26 - Guest: Conventional Commits. 13:06 – So Kyle what did you getting into opensource look like? 13:19 – Alex: Boot Strap. Operation Code. 15:07 – Chuck chimes-in about Aimee Knight and other people. Serving people and their country. You are helping people who have sacrificed. 15:58 – It is totally volunteer-based. 16:05 – Chris: What kind of questions did you ask Alex? How did you decide what to put in an issue? 16:25 – Alex: I tend to go to Stack Overflow. If it is in regards to a library I go to GitHub. Real time texts. Next.js – I just contributed to this this week. 19:21 – Chris: This question is for either one of you. For Questions and Answers – do you have any suggestions on what NOT to do when seeking help? 19:46 – Stay away from only asking a question in one sentence. There is so much information/context that you are leaving out, and that can often lead to more questions. Reasonable amount of contexts can go a long way. Code samples. Please Google the details for the markdown if it is a huge code. Context, context, context! 20:44 – I have an error, please fix it. Maybe that needs more context? 20:53 – Guest: What were you doing? There is a bigger overarching element. The problem they can see in front of them and what is the thing that you are TRYING to solve? 21:44 – More contexts that can help with a helpful answer. 21:53 – Guest: If someone used some learning tool... 22:13 – Chuck chimes-in. Chuck: It is something different that it could do something that you didn’t expect. 22:47 – Alex: Those are great moments. I love it when Kyle sees... That snowflake of your problem can help with documentation caveats. 23:44 – People are probably copying pasting. 24:05 – It can be the difference between understanding the page and not especially What not to do and what to do – any other tips? Can you have too much information? 24:32 – Guest: I am guilty of this sometimes. You can have too much information. The ability to converse in a real-time conversation is better. That’s my route to go. Maybe your problem is documented but documented poorly. Go to a real-time conversation to hash things out. 26:15 – Guest: If you do your homework with the different conversations: questions vs. concerns. Real-time conversation. He talks about GitHub issues and Stack Overflow. 27:48 – Chuck: My password is 123... If they can duplicate... Alex: Yeah too much information isn’t good. Some places mandate recreation like a JS Fiddle. Like Sandbox are cool tools. 29:32 – Is there a way to do the code wrong? 29:38 – Advertisement. 30:25 – Guest chimes-in with his answer. 31:31 – Question. If it’s opensource should they share? 31:33 – Absolutely. The difference that makes it for me is great. I can spot things that the machine can help me find. One small tip is when you provide code samples and GitHub issues use... The further you go out to recreate the problem there is a high payoff because they can get something working. The big difference is that it’s a huge pain to the person trying to convey the issue. If I do the simple version...I think you have to weigh your options. What tools are out there? Generate your data structure – there are costs to recreate the issue. 33:35 – Chris: 500 files, apps within the app – intercommunicating. All you do is download this, install this, it takes you ½ a day and how does this all work? 34:03 – Guest: You have to rein it in. Provide the easiest environment for it to occur. If you are having someone download a table and import it, and use a whole stack – you can try it – but I would advise to work really hard to find... 34:50 – In creating a demo keep it simple? 35:52 – Guests reply. 36:02 – Chuck. 36:07 – Chris: I learned about your experiences coming to opensource. Anything else that you would like to share with new contributors? 36:25 – Guest: Start with something that you have a genuine interest in. Something like a curiosity light bulb is on. It makes it more interesting. It’s a nice way to give back. Something that interests you. I have not found a case yet that I’m not compelled to help someone. Putting yourself out there you might be given a plate you don’t know what to do with. My learning experience is how welcoming opensource is. Maybe things are changing?  38:31 – Chuck: I have seen those communities but generally if they are there people frown down upon it. The newer opensource communities are very friendly. These projects are trying to gain adoptions, which is for the newer users. 39:17 – Guest: Final statements on opensource. Even if you think it is a small contribution it still helps. 40:55 – Guest chimes-in. It is important to have a platter for newcomers. 41:15 – Chris: I am curious to talk to you about how you’ve written React applications among others. Any advice? What resources should they 41:46 – Guest: Yeah. If you are making your new React application (from Vue land) there are many things that are similar and things that are different. As for preparing yourself, I am a huge fan of this one course. I had been coding (plus school) so 5 years, it’s okay to dive-into community courses. Dive-into a tutorial. Understand the huge core differences. He goes into those differences between React, Angular, and Vue. 43:30 – Guest talks about this, too. 45:50 – React doesn’t have an official router. Vue provides (he likes Vue’s mentality) other things. There is a library called One Loader. 46:50 – Guest: I was at a Meetup. One guy was doing C-sharp and game development. His wife had a different background, and I think they were sampling Angular, Vue, and React - all these different frameworks. That was interesting to talk with them. I relayed to them that Vue has free tutorials. Jeffry had an awesome Vue Cast. I think that’s what got me started in Vue. I learned from this tool and so can you! 48:11 – Chris: You aren’t starting from scratch if you know another framework? Do they translate well? 48:33 – Guest: I think so. There are a lot of ways to translate those patterns. 49:34 – Guest: React Rally – I just went to one. 49:50 – Chris chimes-in. Slots is mentioned 50:27 – Guest mentions the different frameworks. Guest: I went into functional components in Vue. I learned about the way... It helps you translate ideas. I don’t recommend it to everyone, but if you want to dig deep then it can help bridge the gap between one frameworks to another. 51:24 – Chris adds to this conversation. 51:36 – Guest: They are translatable. They are totally map-able. 5:46 – Chuck: Say someone was going to be on a Summit where they could meet with the React Core Team. What things would you suggest with them – and say these things are working here and these are working there. 52:12 – Guest: I would love to see... 53:03 – React doesn’t have a reactivity system you’d have to tell it more to... 53:15 – Guest chimes-in. Panel and guests go back-and-forth with this topic. 54:16 – Tooling. 55:38 – Guest: With React coming out with time slicing features how does that map to Vue and what can you say from one team to another. What is there to review? There is a lot of great things you can do with... 56:44 – Conversation continues. 57:59 – React has some partial answers to that, too. Progress. 58:10 – When Vue came onto the scene everyone felt like why do we need another framework? We have Ember, and... But with Vue it felt cohesive. It had an opportunity to learn from all the other frameworks. In terms of progress everyone is on the frontlines and learning from each other. Everyone has a different view on it. How can se learn from this and...? 59:12 – Chris: I am grateful for the different frameworks. Anyone comes out with a new tool then it’s the best. Creating something that is even better than before. 59:38 – Guest. 59:49 – Chuck: There are good frameworks out there why do I need another one. That’s the point. Someone will come along and say: I like what’s out there but I want to make... That’s what Vue was right? In some ways Vue was a leap forward and some ways it wasn’t – that’s how I feel. We need something to make things a bit easier to save 10 hours a week. 1:01:11 – Even Vue’s... 1:02:20 – Guest: In terms of why do we need another framework conversation – I don’t think we need another reason. Go ahead, what if it is groundbreaking it makes everyone do things differently and keep up. I love the idea that JavaScript is saying: what is the new framework today? The tradeoff there is that there are so many different ways to do things. It is hard for beginners. 1:03:88 – Chuck: How to find you online? 1:03:49 – Kyle states his social media profiles, so does Alex, too. 1:04:06 – Chuck: Let’s do some picks! 1:04:10 – Code Badges’ Advertisement Links: JSON Generator Ember.js Vue React Angular JavaScript Udemy One-Loader YouTube Talk: Beyond React 16 by Dan Abramov Badgr Kickstarter: CodeBadge.org Alex Sasha Regan’s Twitter Kyle Holmberg’s Twitter Kyle’s website Dev.to – Alex’s information DevChat TV GitHub Meetup Operation Code Sponsors: Kendo UI Digital Ocean Code Badge Cache Fly Picks: Chris Home decorating shows Charles TerraGenesis GetaCoderJob.com Swag.devchat.tv Codebadge.org Kyle OperationCode Yet Another React vs.Vue Article Hacktoberfest Alex Uplift Standing Desk System 76 Rust

Panel: Charles Max Wood Chris Fritz Special Guest: Kyle Holmberg & Alex Regan In this episode, the panel talks with two guests Kyle and Alex who work together in opensource. Kyle is a software engineer at AutoGravity interested in full-stack web development, graphic design, integrated systems, data visualizations, and soccer. Alex writes code and works with Parametric Studios, and he also loves puppies. Check out today’s episode where the panel and the two guests talk about the different frameworks and contributing to opensource. Show Topics: 3:03 – We got together because Alex mentioned his project. He was looking for something to get up running nice and easy. Boot Strap 4. That is a nice choice and I was contributing as a core team member at the time. He started with how do I get started with Boot Strap Vue. At the time I asked how do you do this...? And that’s how we got started. 4:03 – Guest continues more with this conversation. 4:30 – Chris: How did you start contributing within your company? 4:44 – Guest: There is a lot of autonomy with the last company I was working with (3 people there). I needed more fine tooth hooks and modals. Someone says X and you try to figure it out. So I was looking at the transitions, and there was a bug there. They hadn’t implemented any hooks, and I thought I could figure this out. From there, if you want a change I can help out. I don’t know if that change got implemented first. I started contributing some things to the library. I really got involved where someone (the creator of the library said you could be a core member. He took a trust in me. I started a lot in test coverage. That might not be the normal path to take. 6:39 – How long have you been developing? 6:42 – Guest: A year and a half. 7:00 – Chris: Any tips to opensource for beginners. 7:10 – Guest: Yes, having a thick skin. Everyone is anonymous on the Internet. People say things that they normally wouldn’t say in person. I figure if you put something out there someone will correct you. How can I get feedback? If you put yourself out there it’s like: failure to success. That process is what makes you better. 8:21 – Chris: Issues and chat like that. There is a lot of context that gets lost. When you just see the text it may seem angry 8:43 – Guest: I have a tendency towards sarcasm, and I have to save that to last. People come from different languages, and I’m not talking about software languages. English isn’t everyone’s first language. Good thing to keep in-mind. 9:14 – Internet is an international community. 9:22 – Guest continues this talk. Opensource is good to work on to get started with contributions. Especially with Operation Code it’s geared towards beginners; less complex. 10:30 – That is a good difference to show. 11:01 – Question. 11:05 – Guest. If you are a person with a lot of skin in their projects – I take pride in my work – I think if you have that mentality that you will want to submit to every request. Find some way to test every request against a...is this my concern or their concern? Figure out the boundaries. You will make mistakes and that’s fine. 11:54 – Panelist. 12:02 – Guest: Coming up with good interface boundaries for your libraries. 12:11 – Chuck: Once we figured out what really mattered than it makes it easier to say: yes or no. 12:26 - Guest: Conventional Commits. 13:06 – So Kyle what did you getting into opensource look like? 13:19 – Alex: Boot Strap. Operation Code. 15:07 – Chuck chimes-in about Aimee Knight and other people. Serving people and their country. You are helping people who have sacrificed. 15:58 – It is totally volunteer-based. 16:05 – Chris: What kind of questions did you ask Alex? How did you decide what to put in an issue? 16:25 – Alex: I tend to go to Stack Overflow. If it is in regards to a library I go to GitHub. Real time texts. Next.js – I just contributed to this this week. 19:21 – Chris: This question is for either one of you. For Questions and Answers – do you have any suggestions on what NOT to do when seeking help? 19:46 – Stay away from only asking a question in one sentence. There is so much information/context that you are leaving out, and that can often lead to more questions. Reasonable amount of contexts can go a long way. Code samples. Please Google the details for the markdown if it is a huge code. Context, context, context! 20:44 – I have an error, please fix it. Maybe that needs more context? 20:53 – Guest: What were you doing? There is a bigger overarching element. The problem they can see in front of them and what is the thing that you are TRYING to solve? 21:44 – More contexts that can help with a helpful answer. 21:53 – Guest: If someone used some learning tool... 22:13 – Chuck chimes-in. Chuck: It is something different that it could do something that you didn’t expect. 22:47 – Alex: Those are great moments. I love it when Kyle sees... That snowflake of your problem can help with documentation caveats. 23:44 – People are probably copying pasting. 24:05 – It can be the difference between understanding the page and not especially What not to do and what to do – any other tips? Can you have too much information? 24:32 – Guest: I am guilty of this sometimes. You can have too much information. The ability to converse in a real-time conversation is better. That’s my route to go. Maybe your problem is documented but documented poorly. Go to a real-time conversation to hash things out. 26:15 – Guest: If you do your homework with the different conversations: questions vs. concerns. Real-time conversation. He talks about GitHub issues and Stack Overflow. 27:48 – Chuck: My password is 123... If they can duplicate... Alex: Yeah too much information isn’t good. Some places mandate recreation like a JS Fiddle. Like Sandbox are cool tools. 29:32 – Is there a way to do the code wrong? 29:38 – Advertisement. 30:25 – Guest chimes-in with his answer. 31:31 – Question. If it’s opensource should they share? 31:33 – Absolutely. The difference that makes it for me is great. I can spot things that the machine can help me find. One small tip is when you provide code samples and GitHub issues use... The further you go out to recreate the problem there is a high payoff because they can get something working. The big difference is that it’s a huge pain to the person trying to convey the issue. If I do the simple version...I think you have to weigh your options. What tools are out there? Generate your data structure – there are costs to recreate the issue. 33:35 – Chris: 500 files, apps within the app – intercommunicating. All you do is download this, install this, it takes you ½ a day and how does this all work? 34:03 – Guest: You have to rein it in. Provide the easiest environment for it to occur. If you are having someone download a table and import it, and use a whole stack – you can try it – but I would advise to work really hard to find... 34:50 – In creating a demo keep it simple? 35:52 – Guests reply. 36:02 – Chuck. 36:07 – Chris: I learned about your experiences coming to opensource. Anything else that you would like to share with new contributors? 36:25 – Guest: Start with something that you have a genuine interest in. Something like a curiosity light bulb is on. It makes it more interesting. It’s a nice way to give back. Something that interests you. I have not found a case yet that I’m not compelled to help someone. Putting yourself out there you might be given a plate you don’t know what to do with. My learning experience is how welcoming opensource is. Maybe things are changing?  38:31 – Chuck: I have seen those communities but generally if they are there people frown down upon it. The newer opensource communities are very friendly. These projects are trying to gain adoptions, which is for the newer users. 39:17 – Guest: Final statements on opensource. Even if you think it is a small contribution it still helps. 40:55 – Guest chimes-in. It is important to have a platter for newcomers. 41:15 – Chris: I am curious to talk to you about how you’ve written React applications among others. Any advice? What resources should they 41:46 – Guest: Yeah. If you are making your new React application (from Vue land) there are many things that are similar and things that are different. As for preparing yourself, I am a huge fan of this one course. I had been coding (plus school) so 5 years, it’s okay to dive-into community courses. Dive-into a tutorial. Understand the huge core differences. He goes into those differences between React, Angular, and Vue. 43:30 – Guest talks about this, too. 45:50 – React doesn’t have an official router. Vue provides (he likes Vue’s mentality) other things. There is a library called One Loader. 46:50 – Guest: I was at a Meetup. One guy was doing C-sharp and game development. His wife had a different background, and I think they were sampling Angular, Vue, and React - all these different frameworks. That was interesting to talk with them. I relayed to them that Vue has free tutorials. Jeffry had an awesome Vue Cast. I think that’s what got me started in Vue. I learned from this tool and so can you! 48:11 – Chris: You aren’t starting from scratch if you know another framework? Do they translate well? 48:33 – Guest: I think so. There are a lot of ways to translate those patterns. 49:34 – Guest: React Rally – I just went to one. 49:50 – Chris chimes-in. Slots is mentioned 50:27 – Guest mentions the different frameworks. Guest: I went into functional components in Vue. I learned about the way... It helps you translate ideas. I don’t recommend it to everyone, but if you want to dig deep then it can help bridge the gap between one frameworks to another. 51:24 – Chris adds to this conversation. 51:36 – Guest: They are translatable. They are totally map-able. 5:46 – Chuck: Say someone was going to be on a Summit where they could meet with the React Core Team. What things would you suggest with them – and say these things are working here and these are working there. 52:12 – Guest: I would love to see... 53:03 – React doesn’t have a reactivity system you’d have to tell it more to... 53:15 – Guest chimes-in. Panel and guests go back-and-forth with this topic. 54:16 – Tooling. 55:38 – Guest: With React coming out with time slicing features how does that map to Vue and what can you say from one team to another. What is there to review? There is a lot of great things you can do with... 56:44 – Conversation continues. 57:59 – React has some partial answers to that, too. Progress. 58:10 – When Vue came onto the scene everyone felt like why do we need another framework? We have Ember, and... But with Vue it felt cohesive. It had an opportunity to learn from all the other frameworks. In terms of progress everyone is on the frontlines and learning from each other. Everyone has a different view on it. How can se learn from this and...? 59:12 – Chris: I am grateful for the different frameworks. Anyone comes out with a new tool then it’s the best. Creating something that is even better than before. 59:38 – Guest. 59:49 – Chuck: There are good frameworks out there why do I need another one. That’s the point. Someone will come along and say: I like what’s out there but I want to make... That’s what Vue was right? In some ways Vue was a leap forward and some ways it wasn’t – that’s how I feel. We need something to make things a bit easier to save 10 hours a week. 1:01:11 – Even Vue’s... 1:02:20 – Guest: In terms of why do we need another framework conversation – I don’t think we need another reason. Go ahead, what if it is groundbreaking it makes everyone do things differently and keep up. I love the idea that JavaScript is saying: what is the new framework today? The tradeoff there is that there are so many different ways to do things. It is hard for beginners. 1:03:88 – Chuck: How to find you online? 1:03:49 – Kyle states his social media profiles, so does Alex, too. 1:04:06 – Chuck: Let’s do some picks! 1:04:10 – Code Badges’ Advertisement Links: JSON Generator Ember.js Vue React Angular JavaScript Udemy One-Loader YouTube Talk: Beyond React 16 by Dan Abramov Badgr Kickstarter: CodeBadge.org Alex Sasha Regan’s Twitter Kyle Holmberg’s Twitter Kyle’s website Dev.to – Alex’s information DevChat TV GitHub Meetup Operation Code Sponsors: Kendo UI Digital Ocean Code Badge Cache Fly Picks: Chris Home decorating shows Charles TerraGenesis GetaCoderJob.com Swag.devchat.tv Codebadge.org Kyle OperationCode Yet Another React vs.Vue Article Hacktoberfest Alex Uplift Standing Desk System 76 Rust

On the first official episode of ON THE RAILS, Scott is joined by YouTube superstar Patrick (H) Willlems and Rachel Schrenk to figure out what the hell happened in INFINITY WAR and pour one out for everyone. No hot topic (or Avenger) is safe; sorry, Yeezy. Brought to you by Broad Branch Distillery and their Supercollider whiskey! To be continued next week!DRINKING GAME RULES:*Any time a dusted Avenger is mentioned*Any time an Avenger who died in INFINITY WAR is mentioned*Any time Scott or a guest is sad about an Avenger who died / was dusted*Any time the MCU is compared to the DCEU*Any time anyone thirst traps over a Chris *Any time Patrick mentions his video about Marvel's color-grading*Any time Rachel mentions her partner*Any time Scott says 'incredible' See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Show Links Management by Walking Around Herman Shooster, founder of Global Response, on "management by walking around" GAF-o-meter Episode Transcript CHRIS MARTIN: Gentlemen, welcome to the first episode of Building Infinite Red, welcome. Why don't each of you take a minute to share your background and what your role is at Infinite Red? TODD WERTH: Hey, there, I'm Todd Worth, I am CEO and co-founder of Infinite Red, along with Ken and Jamon here. This is my third business. This is a traditional business, meaning it's not investor backed. My first business was also similar to this, and my middle business was a venture capital backed business. So, I went through all that fun Silicon Valley interviews with the VCs that we get to see on HBO. I've been a developer and I did some design as well for the last 22 years. So, I spent most of my time in the Bay Area working at various startups, some enterprises and that kind of stuff. KEN MILLER: I'm Ken Miller, I'm the CTO and founder. I've mostly done startups in my career. A whole long string of venture-backed startups and that's what convinced me that I wanted to do something different this time. JAMON HOLMGREN: I'm Jamon Holmgren and I'm the Chief Operating Officer here, and the other co-founder here. I started my business in 2005 and some variation of that has persisted all the way to today, obviously with the merger that we'll probably talk about at some point in this podcast with Todd and Ken. But, I've been coding since I was 12 but really professionally since then, since 2005. So, 13 years now. CHRIS: How did the three of you meet? TODD: Actually, I met Ken when he did a phone interview for me about 10 years ago. Ken was my boss at one point. We worked together at a company called Mamapedia / Mamasource. So, I met him on the phone. He asked me a bunch of very tough technical questions. That was interesting, and then we had an interview, at which he sat behind me, over my shoulder and watched me program. That wasn't uncomfortable at all. KEN: Yeah, he's never let me forget that. JAMON: And I met Todd and subsequently Ken ... I think in person we met in 2014 at a conference down in San Francisco, Fort Mason. We were all three of us were speaking at conferences about iOS development. Todd and I had kind of heard of each other, maybe done a little bit of communication at some point. TODD: We had been chatting at that point because we both ... you did digs at me, and your speech, and my speech came a couple of people later, and I digged back at you and we wouldn't have done that if we hadn't already been chatting a lot. JAMON Some friendly banter. We had kind of hit it off right away, which was kind of cool. Then we ended up a little bit later collaborating on some open source work, which was really fun. TODD: Yeah, I do believe I won that banter war, during that 2014 conference. JAMON: The jury's still out. TODD: I got more laughs. CHRIS: So, you all get together and you all meet and you all have familiarity with each other. Why merge companies and form one company? TODD: That's a great question. That was a fairly long process. Jamon and I started knowing each other pretty well in the particular tech stack that we were all in. The three of us had very popular open source libraries. JAMON: That was called RubyMotion back in the day. It was an iOS framework and since we were all Ruby developers it kind of brought us in. TODD: Correct. We worked with each other in the industry in our local little culture. Not local physically, but meaning in the RubyMotion community. And then Jamon and I just talked a lot. We chatted a lot on Slack or whatever it was at that time, and we just got to know each other pretty well. Then what happened was in an industry where you're doing client work, it's very roller coaster-ish often, which means you're either slow or you're really busy. When that happens, after a while you start looking for partners who can help shave off the high and low points. We started doing with ClearSight Studio, which is Jamon's company, and they were helping us work on some projects when we were a little too busy. JAMON: Yeah, and then we ended up competing on one project, which was ... this industry is kind of interesting because most of the time you don't end up competing directly with people you know. There's enough work to go around that people tend not to shop around a ton. But, we ended up competing head-to-head on a project and both of us agreed that we didn't really like competing against each other. We would rather work together, which was kind of cool, and what was interesting was, Todd's the glue guy here. I mean, he's a guy that kind of brought everybody in. I didn't really know Ken. I'd met him at Inspect briefly, talked to him a little bit about ... TODD: Inspect was a 2014 conference we spoke at. JAMON: Yeah, that was the one in Fort Mason there. I got to know Ken a little bit later when Todd invited me down to San Francisco. KEN: It's a little funny because of that dynamic that those two knew each other, but I was a little apprehensive when we started talking about merging. Because Todd and I had a pretty good dynamic. I was a little worried that those two would outvote me, since they were both a little more front end than me. But, we find when we disagree, it's more often Jamon and I are the ones who are in agreement. JAMON: Knowing you now Ken, I don't know how you ever agreed to the merger. TODD: Yeah, we did work well together, which mainly consists of me telling bad jokes and Ken rolling his eyes. JAMON: This is true. KEN: It's still how we work together. JAMON: Yes. TODD: That is true, and Ken is absolutely right, most often it's Ken and Jamon voting against me. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: That's fine, though. KEN: And to be clear, we always have kind of a consensus process, so it's not like we have a vote and one person walks away unhappy. It's really more like we just keep at it until we can find the place that we all agree on. JAMON: Yeah, totally. TODD: Yeah, I'm technically the CEO of the company but we're actually all three have equal power and we run the company as basically a council of elders. It's not just us three, we have some other people on the team that also help us make decisions, plus the whole team also helps us makes a lot of decisions. This system is chaotic. It's like democracy, it's messy and chaotic but it's the best thing we have. It does sometimes require us to vigorously debate each other before we get consensus, but I think it works out really well. JAMON: One of the things that I think we're gonna be able to delve into in this podcast that will be interesting to the listeners, is some of the things that we've learned being more of a council of elders, like Todd said. So, this sounds very kind of self reflective, here we're kind of talking about how we met and how we started the company. But I think it's interesting background. It kind of sets the stage for why we operate the way that we do. What has worked, what hasn't worked. I think it'll be an interesting aspect of this podcast. TODD: Yeah, there's a lot more to the story of our merge, of course. It was over a long period of time. Maybe we can talk about that more in detail at some point. CHRIS: What are the benefits of having three founders? Because there's ... oftentimes I imagine that there's one, so you have that one person view of the world, but now you have three people and you have to come to consensus. JAMON: Well, I can speak to this probably because I did run my own company as a sole founder for 10 years. And certainly being by yourself has certain advantages because you can kind of pull the trigger and say, "Okay, we're gonna do this. We're gonna shift direction. We're gonna go this direction." And you can do it very quickly. I'm not very risk averse, I just kind of like dive right into things as Todd and Ken can attest. TODD: That's another way of saying, "There's a China shop, no need to open the door, let's go through it." JAMON: Let's go right through the door. That's me. It allowed for certain really great things in my company, like being able to go from, hey, we're a Ruby on Rails shop to we do iOS apps, never having done one, but yeah, sure, we do them, and jumping right into it. Had some downsides, too. Being on a wild ride like that is very stressful to most personalities, and I had 12 people with me. And it wasn't just me. Not to mention my family. So, I can tell you that the difference, the main difference, is that, it forces me to slow down a little bit. It allows me to kind of lean on the strengths of Ken and Todd, which I've learned over the past two and a half years, three years really, they're very strong in certain areas that I'm not. Honestly, I don't know at this point what I would do without that. It's really great to be able to say, "Okay, Todd, what do you think about this particular issue, because it has to do with team." Or something like that, something he's really good at. Or Ken, for strategy and kind of understanding the deeper implications of what we're looking at doing. So, it allows you to kind of add additional strengths to the leadership, to the ownership team without necessarily adding weaknesses because you can kind of identify what those weaknesses are, and say, "Okay, this is a weakness of Jamon. Let's avoid going down that path." Let's do the things that I am good at instead. TODD: Yeah, I agree with that. Jamon also is our engine. He keeps on going and pushing and going and pushing and going, pushing. So, that's one of his main strengths that he brought. KEN: And to be honest, that was a big factor in deciding to merge. Seeing how he just has this natural energy and productivity, that Todd and I are not as much that way. So we saw it as a pretty natural complementarity. TODD: To answer your specific question, having multiple people. Basically all three of us have two other people we can't tell exactly what to do. We have to convince them to do what they do, and I'm a big believer that the best leaders are reluctant leaders, and I would consider myself this. I think I'm a pretty decent leader. I certainly work hard at it, but I don't particularly ... it's not like something I seek or particularly like per se. The reason I think reluctant leaders are better is because they don't really enjoy the power like enthusiastic leaders do. So, because of that I'm perfectly happy to do things in consensus and that kind of stuff. All three of us can and have in the past led individually. CHRIS: So, what about the challenges? You've mentioned a lot of benefits but what kind of challenges present itself when you have to convince two other people? TODD: Sometimes there's yelling. Not too often but it's happened. Jamon came up with something ... I don't know, I'm sure you didn't come up with that but Jamon's company, they did something where they have a gafo, which is give a frick... JAMON: G-A-F-O. TODD: But basically this system works really well because a lot of times if you're discussing any subject and your job is to add your opinion to it, whether you're particularly interested in that subject or not, you do. And a lot of times people argue with each other over things that one of them doesn't really care about and they're arguing as if both of them have equal degrees of their opinion. So, what we'll often do is say, "What's your gafo on this?," which is one to 10, and if I'm arguing, not arguing, but if I'm expressing my opinion on a particular subject and Jamon says "What's your gafo in this?", I'd say a two, and his is a nine, then Jamon automatically gets that. JAMON: Yeah. And what you find is people don't really abuse it. Like, most of the time you find out that two people are arguing over something that they both have a two or a three, versus once in a while you'll get a situation where both are a nine or a 10. In that case you know that you're dealing with something really important and it actually, even just saying that, like we both really, really care about this, is still an aid in doing this. It actually came from an article, I don't remember who wrote it but we can put it in the show notes, Chris. I'll give it to you after the show and we can put the link to the article in the show notes. TODD: Just to give you an example, I brought up the other day that I deserve a much, much larger salary. Now, I had a high gafo on this, about a 10. And it turns out Ken and Jamon both had a one. So, I won. And now I have twice the salary. It's a good system. JAMON: I was not informed of this event. TODD: This may or may not have happened only in my mind. I rarely can tell. CHRIS: Has there ever been a moment where the gafo on all three of you was very high? JAMON: Yes. CHRIS: And, in that case what happens? TODD: We have a very large closet where we keep the dead horse, and since we can't agree on that and there's lots of vigorous debate we bring that dead horse out and beat it regularly. Which is fine. That doesn't happen too often, to be honest, but we do have some things where it keeps coming up over and over again. KEN: We have had some pretty heated conversations, sometimes, and I'm not gonna call it a disadvantage of having three people, because I actually don't think that it is. So, I'm personally fairly risk averse, and tend to sort of make decisions cautiously. So, for me, having three people, and we can hash this out, actually makes it easier for me to make decisions with more confidence, but sort of ironically. Right? Because, having sounding boards whose perspectives I know will be different and yet exist in the context of some shared values, from my point of view that's pretty much unalloyed positive. Even if it doesn't mean that there's a few uncomfortable conversations. CHRIS: So, Ken, how do you deal with uncomfortable conversations and disagreements that inevitably happen? KEN: Well, I think the emphasis there is on relationship building and after care, as it were. We treat the tripartite relationship as one of the most important things that we can work on. So, we make a point to meet in person more regularly than the whole team meets. We have founders' meetings on Zoom several times a week. Sometimes those meetings are just kind of chatting about the news of the world or something like that. I mean, often there's plenty of business but we also make some time to just shoot the shit, as it were. That creates the container in which that happens. So, even if, in the heat of the moment, as people do, you might forget that these people are on your side. There's that container to return to, so that when the fight is over and when the sort of tempers have died down we can come back and say, "Hey, you know what? I get where you're coming from." We're all on the same side here and we can kind of take that and look through the ashes for the refined bits of ore that we wanted to take out of that conversation. That's pretty much how it always happens. JAMON: One of the other things that we do is, we know that if things are starting to get heated in Slack, because we are a remote distributed company, and we use Slack a ton, if things are starting to get heated in Slack, we're supposed to increase the bandwidth, which means essentially go into Zoom, get face to face, look each other in the eye and talk. We don't always do that. There are situations where we look back and we say, "You know what? We violated our rule there where we were supposed to go to Zoom and we didn't do it." TODD: That actually causes quite a few ... not quite a few, but I would say a majority of our intense arguments came because we didn't switch out of Slack into Zoom, which is what we use for our video calls, which I highly, highly, highly recommend over the rest of the crap out there. One show note for the audience, if you're listening, if you feel like you have to look up many of the words Ken says, don't worry. I do that all the time. JAMON: Before I met Ken, Todd told me, "Don't worry if you feel dumb. He talks like he swallowed an encyclopedia." TODD: Which is great. We love Ken just the way he is, but ... JAMON: I don't know if people know this, but Ken went to Harvard. Todd and I did not go to Harvard. TODD: I liked how you phrased that. I will now say, I am Todd, I did not go to Harvard, which places me much higher than what I actually did. CHRIS: So, how do you think the relationship that you've strived to continually build as the trio affects the greater culture of Infinite Red? TODD: I think it's paramount. When you get to a certain size, well, even in smaller, but especially when you get to a certain size, the entire team has just as much power to set the culture as we three do. Ken said it really well that basically we're like a black hole, where we kind of set the culture and we pull the team in and they orbit around and if we put in a little extra effort we can pull them in tighter to our culture, but ultimately it's not a destination. We simply pull them in a direction. So, the way we interact with each other, the way we interact with everyone else, and the way we interact, really, in public, I think completely sets the tone for everyone else. KEN: I'd say we pay more attention to emotions than your typical tech company founders. In terms of like the whole health of the organization. We talk about feelings. It comes up in the work we do in design and that sort of thing, but we certainly value intellect and litigal ability very highly, but we also will check in with, like, "Well, how does this feel to you?" Like, "How does that land?" How does it ..." right? And we value the subjective and emotional as coequal with the intellectual. JAMON: Yes. KEN: And that probably doesn't make us unique but it is a little unusual. JAMON: I think to the degree we do it, it's fairly unique and that stems out of some decisions that we made early on in this partnership. One was obviously what we talked about before, that the biggest existential threat that we face is that us three, Todd, Ken, and I, is that we would have a falling out. And then coming out of that is we have to be talking about our feelings a lot. We have to be talking about how we're interacting, we have to be thinking about it. We have to really resolve differences because if we don't, we kill the golden goose. It's gone. Beyond that, then we've also made some decisions around what kind of company we wanna be. One of the big things is we wanna be the type of company that we would wanna work at. It's an easy thing to say. It's a much harder thing to do. TODD: I think a lot of people wanna be that, but they don't actually put any effort in. I want to have the body I did when I was 24, but the amount of effort I put in, I have the body I will have when I'm 84. The short of it is tech bros need not apply. We each have different skills. I'm definitely the heart of the company. Ken's more the brains and Jamon's the muscle of the company. I would say, I don't know if you guys agree with that, but, I talk about feelings more than some people, I'm sure, like. CHRIS: So, building on that heart, mind and muscle analogy, how do you inspire and empower one another throughout the day and throughout the weeks and the months and the years? JAMON: One thing that I think is important is that we understand that we're not always going to have a high level of energy, individually as well as a founder group. We'll have periods of high energy, where we're really pushing hard on something, and then we'll have periods of time where we're kind of coasting a little bit more, and that's okay. That comes out of our decision that we wanna have a company that we would wanna work at, that we can stick around for a long time, maybe that everybody can retire at. This isn't a company that's here for the short term. TODD: I'm super proud of the fact that since we merged and became Infinite Red we've had no one leave. No one's quit. A few people we let go for various specific reasons. But, I'm super proud of that. My specialty is dealing with the team and I do something called management by walking around, which I try to say good morning to everyone. KEN: From HP, right? TODD: I don't know ... I saw this elderly gentleman talking about how he did this to his company on YouTube, and that's where I got that term, but I'm sure other people used to... we're 26 people plus, some freelancers. I try to talk to everyone at least every couple of days, if it's nothing more than just saying hey and that kind of stuff. I take great pride in that. However, what I'm not sure I'm good at is things like strategy, and Ken, as you've all noticed, talks a lot less than Jamon and I. But, when he talks about strategy, and truthfully, when he talks about anything, it's pretty gold, and I really pay attention. I know I ran a company for nine years, and I'm not particularly good at the strategy at all. So, I really wouldn't want to do, any company, this company or any company, without Ken and Jamon, to be honest. JAMON: That's an interesting point. Todd's our CEO and he doesn't feel like he has to be the strategic mind. A lot of times you think, okay, CEO, has to be like setting the course, leading the way, at the helm. But, it goes to our priorities. Our priorities are our team, and Todd's really great at that. That's our important thing. Strategy, it's a supporting thing. It's not the main thing. KEN: One of our inspirations, I remember Todd talking to me about this, was Richard Branson. He at one point said that your shareholders don't come first. Your customer doesn't come first. Your employees come first. And the reason is, it's their job to take care of everybody else. That ethos kind of starts with us, which is that we take care of each other and make sure that we're supported, right? And we take care of our employees, make sure they're supported, because they're the ones, who, at the end of the day, are taking care of the customer or not. And if the customer's taken care of, then the financial health of the company is taken care of. In some ways that's a harder way to work. It's much quicker and easier to just sort of feel the customer, okay, yeah, well, we'll do whatever you want, and then take it out on your employees. And that is a very typical way that consultant companies end up. JAMON: I think we're gonna do some more talking about that in future episodes, for sure, because that- KEN: We can bookmark that and talk it as a whole topic unto itself. JAMON: I didn't mean to cut you off on that, Ken, I just kind of wanted to make a note that that's something that's really core to who we are and- TODD: It really is. JAMON: ... and we need to do more time than we have right now, but where there's a lot of discussion that needs to happen around that. KEN: It is, but in terms of like ... I said that shared values, that container of shared values is also partly what makes this work, and that's one of those values, that taking care of your employees is never bad for business, and it's never bad for your customers. TODD: I would pile on to something Ken said. It is much more difficult. I have a lot of problems. I had a lot of problems as an employee, of leadership, and I still have a lot of problems with leadership. Some people are just literally jerks and they're just sadists, they like to abuse their power and make people miserable. But disregarding those people, in quotation marks, just disregarding those, most leaders fail just because they're just lazy leadership. They take the easy route. The easy route is to make processes and jump on people, and be what we call seagull manager, which is you fly in and you crap all over everything and you fly away. We're not perfect, we're human, we make mistakes and stuff, and sometimes our team points out mistakes and we try to take it super seriously. But, it takes a constant weekly, if not daily, effort to put your team first. It's not easy but I love it. I love our team. I consider them family, to be honest. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: Sometimes talking about clients, they have a problem dealing with clients, that can be nerveracking and I don't look forward to that. I never dread talking, having any meeting or having any conversation with any of the team. JAMON: This is also why we haven't added a lot of additional people to Infinite Red. We're 26 right now. We could add a lot of people. We've had the opportunity. We have the work. We have people in some ways beating down the door to work with Infinite Red. We're a consultancy and people wanna work with us because of our reputation. We also have a lot of developers coming to us. Every week I'm getting multiple messages saying, "Hey, do you have any openings there at Infinite Red? I'd love to work with you. I love the ethos. I love what you do." And yet, we're only 26 people. TODD: Plus some freelancers. JAMON: Plus some freelancers, for sure. Freelancers is one way that you can kind of increase your capacity without necessarily bringing on a huge commitment. That's nice but they're also very hard to find, as far as reliable ones. TODD: And it's challenging. That's not an easy route. JAMON: Right. We've had a few misses on that and ... TODD: That's another show. JAMON: It is. KEN: Yeah, that's another whole topic. JAMON: But that's why we're not much larger, is because we wanna grow very purposely and we wanna make sure that we're making the right choices along the way. KEN: We don't wanna grow any faster than our culture can absorb. TODD: Yes. KEN: I've been at enough startups, and watched them grow from small tight-knit, great culture, and then there gets this point where there's pressure from investors, usually, to grow as fast as possible. And there's a rate at which that happens, that the culture gets overwhelmed and diluted and destroyed, and you can never get it back. So, we're very, very keen to stay out of that trap and grow only as fast as the culture can absorb and as we as leaders can adapt to the increase in scale. TODD: My arms aren't very large and whipping the team all day, it really gets sore. I couldn't handle many more. In all seriousness ... I don't think I've ever been all serious ... JAMON: Never. TODD: ... but I'll try. Ken and I, when we first ... one of the things, having worked at startups, having owned startups and that kind of stuff, there's nothing against VC, venture capital based startups and investor startups. It's a different type business and it's a very specific business that works very well for certain type businesses. Ken and I enjoyed doing that for a long time. We just got a little tired of it, and we don't have an exit strategy for our company. We always say that our exit strategy is death. We also want a company where people can retire in, whether designers, developers or people in leadership, that kind of stuff. JAMON: This is really unusual, by the way. If you talk to other tech companies. TODD: Yeah, and they don't have to switch to management, which isn't moving up. It's a different job. You should be able to be a designer, developer your entire career and become a master and retire. So, long way of saying we're not going anywhere for a very long time. As far as what direction we're going in, I'll let these two talk about that. JAMON: I think that kind of flavors the decisions we're making. I'm not a huge fan of making, like, very specific targets way out in the future, because just like building software, it doesn't work very well. You're making your decisions when you have the least amount of information. The further back you can delay decisions, the better, but you really need a framework to make those decisions in. That's the important thing. So, we work on the framework. We work on how do we make decisions when opportunities arise? How do we decide whether to do something, whether to not. I think it's Steve Jobs said that one of his greatest strengths was the ability to say no, and that's important for us, too. But, like Chain React, our React Native conference we had an opportunity to create that, to make that happen. It fit our framework and we went for it. It was a success, and we have the second one coming up here in July. That's the sort of thing that I think I really focus on, is the framework through which we make decisions. We obviously have some longer term plans, some of which the team knows about, some of which not, but the main thing is that they will look at the decisions we make, and know why we're making the decisions, because of that framework. TODD: Yeah, and if the team doesn't have buy-in or they don't agree, it won't happen, because Jamon, Ken and I aren't gonna do it. JAMON: Yeah, we don't do it. KEN: Questions like this are sort of like, on this long car voyage that you're planning to take, when do you plan to turn left? Right? When the road tells us that we should turn left is the answer, right? Jamon happens to be right that it's about setting a framework, it's about having a certain set of values, it's about being prepared for certain kinds of opportunities so that when luck comes our way we can take advantage of it. But we don't have a five-year plan. We don't have a master script for where we're going, and that is very much on purpose. TODD: Well said. CHRIS: Any closing thoughts? TODD: I would say that Ken's extremely good at making very eloquent remarks on why he didn't do his homework. KEN: It's worked well for me so far. TODD: It's true. JAMON: It's actually true. TODD: That's a fact. JAMON: I think that what Ken said about our company will also apply in some ways to this podcast. We're not necessarily going to have a very specific thing that we hammer every single time that we release an episode. There will be a little bit of kind of organic turning left and turning right as we go, but we have a framework around this podcast. So, I'm hoping that the listeners got a lot of value out of this. I think that this is gonna be a lot of fun for us, as a founder group, and hopefully they'll join us for the ride here. TODD: I would also like ... the reason this podcast came into existence was Jamon was reaching out to new founders or founders that have been around it for a while or entrepreneurs or business owners, and he just said, hey, if you have any questions about that, fire it off, and a lot of people did ask Jamon, and Jamon and Ken and I would discuss it and kind of come with an answer and we'd post it on Twitter. People really seemed to enjoy that. You think you don't have too much to share, but then when you share and people give you a good response, you're like, "Oh, I do have more to share." So, this is a direct result from that, and the reason I bring it up is, I think we're gonna continue doing that, so feel free to reach out on Twitter. JAMON: My Twitter handle is @jamonholmgren. Todd's is @twerth, and Ken's is @seriousken. We'll put those in the show notes as well. TODD: Yeah, and Jamon's a great person. He's a great person to reach out to, and the three of us.

Kelly talks to Chris Carlson, CEO, Narrative Pros, about what business leaders can learn from a stage and theater actor about presentations to small and large audiences.   Kelly Coughlin is CEO of BankBosun, a management consulting firm helping bank C-Level Officers navigate risk and discover reward. He is the host of the syndicated audio podcast, BankBosun.com. Kelly brings over 25 years of experience with companies like PWC, Lloyds Bank, and Merrill Lynch. On the podcast Kelly interviews key executives in the banking ecosystem to provide bank C-Suite officers, risk management, technology, and investment ideas and solutions to help them navigate risks and discover rewards. And now your host, Kelly Coughlin. Kelly: I’ve got my friend Chris Carlson CEO of NarrativePros on the line, Chris are you there? Chris: I’m here. Kelly: Great, Chris and I have known each other for many, many years. Chris is an actor at the Guthrie Theater in Minneapolis He’s also a lawyer and an entrepreneur, and I’m a big fun of his. Listeners are saying, why does he have a starving actor, lawyer on here? Before we get to your connection in to the banking ecosystem. A little bit of personal background. Chris: Minnesota residence, most of my life, three kids, I’m 46. I’ve been, as I said earlier acting professionally for 22 years. I’ve been an attorney for about as long. Kelly: Well let’s get into why I have you on BankBosun and your connection to the banking echo system. If you recall, I asked you to give a talk at a conference my company was hosting for banks and investment managers. I think we had like six or seven speakers there over a two day period, probably eight or nine I suppose. You got the highest rankings of anybody in terms of popularity. Tell me why you think that happened and what your value proposition, if you will, to the banking industry is. What was it that resonated with these bankers in that message? Chris: Absolutely, and I to think to answer as many of those question as efficiently as I can, it has to do with the value of genuine connections between individuals, whether that’s one on one or one to many, or many to one. The expertise that I have amassed over the years, is to how to efficiently create that. How to make that efficient, how to maximize the feedback that you get from any communication. Kelly: What does that really mean? Chris: Let me give you an example, bankers are smart guys. They tend to live in their heads when it comes to ideas. They believe if they have a great piece of advice, that that’s the end of their value. That I tell you to invest in stock A, because that will help you. But the real world has as much to do about that conversation and whether or not you say invest in stock A, in a way that is meaningful, whether it makes sense to them. Whether you’re rude, whether you’re cold or indifferent. The value of advice when it’s person to person, which is at the center of any banking relationship, depends on the connection between two people. It’s not whether or not I like you necessarily, but it’s I have to trust you. I have to respect you. I have to understand you absolutely. It has as much to do about that as anything. Kelly: How I perceive you or how a customer perceives a banker. Not necessarily how he really is. Chris: Well actually I would say that the goal is to have them perceive you as you really are, and we are many different people to many different audiences. You yourself are a father, a friend, a boxer. You will behave differently in the ring than with a client. What you need to do is harness what will be of the most value, and make the strongest connection with the audience that you’re in front of. That has to come from somewhere that’s true. One of the things that people often mistake is that acting is fake, and it actually has all to do with truth. If you see a good actor, you get them, you buy them, you connect with them. If you see a bad actor, you absolutely reject them. You don’t get it. It’s not real. Kelly: I think what you’re saying is that you learned this in your acting career. And as a lawyer, you practice this. But you learned this through your acting training to be real. Two scenarios, one is making a one on one presentation, and another is giving a talk to 20 people. What does your advice do in those two scenarios? Chris: My advice hopefully will encourage people to understand that their impact on their audience, whether it’s one person or 20 people, has more to do with how they say their message, and how they’re able to let people connect with them as real individuals. How they’re able to be themselves in a very genuine and authentic way, and then share the advice that they have. Far too often people, I call them left brain professionals. People who think a lot will sit in front of their computer and work on their outline in their PowerPoint and then get up and give it, without really spending much time on whether or not they’re giving it in a way that incorporates who they are. I think you, Kelly, are a good example of an effective delivery. That’s you, when I hear you talking, that’s the same Kelly that I hear when I’m having a conversation with in the coffee shop. People are drawn to that. For a banker to have an interaction with somebody, the more genuine they can be, the more that they can focus on that individual as a human being, and also share with them, themselves as a human being. That will make the advice that they give, that much more meaningful and valuable. In many ways it’s the same thing when they stand up in front of 20 people. It‘s genuine and real and to a degree vulnerable. That has a lot to do with fear that is natural, standing in front of a group of people or a high pressure sale. Anyway that you can wrestle that fear, and you kind of say look, “This is me, and this is what I have to say and I think it would be great if you used it, or bought, but if you don’t I understand.” That’s incredibly attractive for people to be around that kind of energy versus, “Look you really got to buy this and it’s really important to me. I don’t know what I’m going to do if you don’t, if you don’t buy this, if you don’t listen to me.” Even though it is important what the person thinks about you, or whether or not they take your advice or buy it. Showing that, gets in the way of who you are and their comfort quite honestly. Kelly: Give me a couple of takeaways that relate to preparing for a presentation and then three or four related to the actual presentation itself, beginning, middle and end that kind of thing. We’ve got some real solid takeaways, I can put some guiding principles here. Chris: Let’s start with the content, that’s where everyone’s comfort is, and most people will spend 100% of their preparation time working on their PowerPoint slides, and you definitely have to work on some kind of presentation, outline and some visuals do help. Number one, when it comes to the visuals, speaker support, PowerPoint, I would work as hard as you can to get rid of all the words quite honestly and just focus on graphs and charts, and pictures or visual creatures. There is a huge disconnect when somebody puts up a bunch of words on a slide, and reads them, or makes the audience read them. It’s just counterproductive and disingenuous to a live environment. You as the speaker need to be considered to be value bringer and you have to explain these things. I would say as few words as possible on any kind of visual support. The content in what someone says, you should outline in bullet points, words or phrases, but not in complete sentences. Don’t lock yourself into phrasing them, in any particular way. Let yourself react to those ideas and explain them, and that’s come off and it’s very authentic and genuine. Kelly: No words on slides. Chris: No words on slides. I would join the audience in cheering if I were to see less words on slides. It’s easy to do, and I think it’s actually fear. People are insecure and they’re like, ”Ah, I got to put all these words on here.” Well take the words off and say the words to people. Kelly: No words on the slide, that’s number one. What was number two? Chris: Number two outline your points in a way that you can speak to them in a genuine way instead, for example, I have been involved in the banking ecosystem since I was 22. Instead of writing that out and then reading it, you might just have something that says 22. You look at it and you say, “Ever since I was 22, I’ve been working in banking.” Let those words, let you work through the thoughts, so that the words come to you at that time. You have to have good notes but it will force you to pick the words authentically and people will hear that. That’s number two. Number three is when you pick these ideas and when you explain them, pretend you’re explaining them to your 92 year old father, or your grandma next door. In other words avoid jargon, you’ve got to be simple, direct and accessible, and I think that people who work in the idea profession tend to be complicated, inaccessible and you always want to be as clear as possible. Simplicity is not easy, it’s very difficult and working on that simplicity is an incredible investment in giving your audiences, who’s paying attention, a return of interest. They will appreciate you, summarizing things very simply and to button this third point off. Work very hard to summarize the single point that you have to make in one sentence. Imagine that your audience is walking out the door, and they don’t have time to hear your whole speech, what would be the one thing you would want to tell them. If you complain, oh no it’s too complicated, it can’t be distilled into one sentence, I would say to you that your audience is doing that anyways. After they walk out, someone’s going to say, “What did Kelly Coughlin talk about?” “Oh, Kelly is working on this cool BankBosun thing, that it’s needed, it helps out C-suite Executives in the banking industry.” They’re summarizing what you’re saying anyways. If you jump into their shoes and try to say all right, “What is the one takeaway from this? You’re going to help them do that. Kelly: That’s good, I recall again from that conference you spoke at. There was some prep work that you recommended. Chris: Sure, let me focus on one of them. A lot of acting technique or approach is focused on combating the nerves and stress of performing. That we appear, genuine, authentic relaxed. One of the truths of performing in front of a bunch of people is that you are nervous. It’s human, so what we want to do is make sure that we find another truth to counteract that. The best counter measure to stress is breathing. When we’re with our friends, or when we’re relaxed, or when we’re uncomfortable and not threatened, the human being breathes from the belly, they use … we use our diaphragm to pull in breath, and when you’re very relaxed, and actually if you watch your kids when they’re sleeping, you’ll see their stomachs go up and down. Now their stomachs are going up and down because the diaphragm is pulling in breath. When we’re nervous we tend not to breath from our diaphragm, our belly, we tend to take shallow breathes and it makes us more nervous and it changes our voice. Someone who’s really relaxed would sound like this, but if they were breathing … their voice goes up a little bit, and it gets a little breathy, and it’s just not as grounded. We can hear that, we feel that someone has a breathiness to their voice and it’s a little higher in pitch, but if you take a breath, and breathe from your diaphragm, not only does the pitch go down, but you can also project your voice further. You can talk louder. So breathing, putting your hand on your stomach and trying to train yourself to breathe so that your stomach flops out when you breathe in, is one of the most effective counter measures to stress and to get you back into yourself, to being a relaxed confident genuine person. Kelly: Let’s talk about, what are kind of some of the deal killers out there. The absolute be cognizant that you don’t do this. Chris: We’ve already touched on some them. These things would be anything that disconnect you from your audience; that separate you from them. For example, number one, the minute you start reading off of the slide, you’re not being in front of an audience genuinely. You’ve turned towards the screen, you’re reading something that everyone else is perfectly capable of reading. I mean that’s just a fundamental disconnect with one audience. “Hey buddy, I can see the slide and you’re reading it for me and it doesn’t make any sense.” Another one would be reading your speech which is very similar, and that’s telling the audience, “I’m not going to talk with you. I’m not going to share with you my ideas, I’m going to read what I wrote, and you’re going to listen to it.” At which point the audience feel like, well why don’t you just give me them for the reading, so that I can read it. Something that’s kind of fun, that I’ve uncovered, is that the average person speaks at about 150 words a minute. We can understand and we think at about 800 words a minute. That means that there is an attention gap. Every time someone starts talking over a couple of 100 words, where my mind is running circles around what you’re telling me. You always have to participate in that because if you don’t, if you don’t give them something to think about that is helping you, they’re going to think about something else. Kelly: Well don’t the non-verbal clues fill that void to a certain extent? Chris: They can, or they cut against it. Something that I was just doing some research on, hand gestures and body gestures. It’s fascinating, the neuro-scientists have studied it, and we use specifically our hands to make gestures, to help us think of a word, and so if we’re genuinely using our hands it’s because we’re trying to think of how to say something, but if you want someone who has prepared a hand gesture like a politician or a bad speaker. The hand gesture comes at or after what they’re trying to say, not before. In the real world, the hand gesture comes a little bit before what it is that they have to say. That’s what the hand gesture is for. When someone plans it, when someone says, “I think it would be good if I moved my hand like this.” They tend to do it in a way that’s very disconnected and fake, because we can tell that. Instinctively, they do it as you’re saying the word or phrase, or after it. That’s an example of another disconnection with an audience where they get the sense, and it’s an unconscious sense, it’s not, “My, he moved his hands in a way that was not matching with the phrase. Therefore I think he’s fake.” We’re not aware of that consciously but unconsciously we think to ourselves, “Wow this guy is a … he’s a fake, he’s not being real with us.” It’s very common. Kelly: Tell me about what should people do with their hands as a default, and then how should we stand? One foot, two feet, hands in the pocket, hands by the side? Give us a couple of ideas on that. Chris: It’s hard to do, but you forget about your hands. Don’t plan any gestures, let your hands go. Just like I was suggesting with your words to jot a note, and then let the specific words you use to express that idea come out in that moment. The same thing should be with your hands. Let your hands make whatever gesture. If you’re an Italian, outspoken hand gesturing person, that’s what you have to do. Kelly: Even if it’s a distraction I’ve been to talks where somebody will be using their hands, you end up following their hands the whole time. Chris: I would say to you that hands gestures become distracting when they’re not connected with what they’re saying. If they’re connected with what they’re saying, you’re not even going to notice them. You become attracted when they’re not connected. If someone has a non-verbal tick, if they’re just moving their hands and it has no connection with what they’re saying, yes it becomes repetitive and it’s a distraction. It’s just like someone who says, has a verbal tick and says um, um all the time and it’s distracting because it’s getting in the way of um, um what you’re trying to say. Kelly: What about movement on the stage? Chris: Less is more, when you start moving around, there’s a huge temptation because of nerves, the sympathetic nervous system, the fight or flight reaction kicks in, and people want to move and I see this so frequently with inexperienced presenters. They’ll start wondering around the stage, or they’ll shift away back and forth on their feet, and that is not connected with anything they’re saying 90% of the time…99. They’re just moving because they’re full of adrenaline and they feel like they should move. But, if it’s not connected with what they’re saying, it is inherently destructive. Why is someone pacing back and forth on the stage? It’s funny because I’ll get push back on that, people will say, “Well I’m trying to be more interesting and dynamic on the stage.” I have no problem with being interesting and dynamic, I have a problem, if it’s not connected with what you’re saying. When in doubt, you need to practice standing still because you’re going to want to move. Move if there’s a reason, move if it makes sense. For example, if you’re separating a point. In the first situation, the FED needs to do XYZ and I’m going to talk about this for a while. In the second situation, and then you can move on that, that might make sense. That’s an example, but that requires practice and planning. So I always recommend that people just stand still. Kelly: Do you prefer microphone that is attached to you versus attached to a podium, because you’re kind of stuck and glued to the podium, but is that your preference? Chris: Yes, a lapel or lavalier microphone allows you to forget about the microphone and that’s what you need to do with a majority of the technology that’s helping support you. Some microphone on a podium tends to trap you behind the podium, which is bad for a number of reasons. You have a temptation to lean on the podium, you’re blocked and a lot of your body language from the audience. You might have more of a tendency to look down. A lavalier microphones will allow you to just take one step to the right or left of the podium, and to find a comfortable position in front of the audience and be accessible. Kelly: That’s terrific, I appreciate that. Chris do you have a favorite quote to finish off here? I always like to get one Chris: Any good quote. Kelly: Good quotes. Chris: Good quotes. “In law, what place are tainted in corrupt but being seasoned with a gracious voice obscures the show of evil.” Kelly: Good one, Chris I appreciate your time on this, and good luck to you with NarrativePros, and we’ll be in touch. Anybody wants to contact Chris, feel free, Narrativepros.com, is that the website? Chris: That’s it. Kelly: Thanks Chris We want to thank you for listening to the syndicated audio program, BankBosun.com The audio content is produced by Kelly Coughlin, Chief Executive Officer of BankBosun, LLC; and syndicated by Seth Greene, Market Domination LLC, with the help of Kevin Boyle. Video content is produced by The Guildmaster Studio, Keenan Bobson Boyle. The voice introduction is me, Karim Kronfli. The program is hosted by Kelly Coughlin. If you like this program, please tell us. If you don’t, please tell us how we can improve it. Now, some disclaimers. Kelly is licensed with the Minnesota State Board of Accountancy as a Certified Public Accountant. Kelly provides bank owned life insurance portfolio and nonqualified benefit services to banks across the United States. The views expressed here are solely those of Kelly Coughlin and his guests in their private capacity and do not in any other way represent the views of any other agent, principal, employer, employee, vendor or supplier of Kelly Coughlin. .